Messages in vintageHO group. Page 1 of 1.
Group: vintageHO Message: 8127 From: Howard Dishman Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8128 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8129 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8130 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8131 From: Howard Dishman Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8132 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8133 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8134 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8135 From: Riverboy Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8136 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8137 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8138 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8139 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8140 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Athearn Metal RDC
Group: vintageHO Message: 8141 From: John Hagen Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8142 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery brass inspection car??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8143 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery brass inspection car??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8144 From: Peter Nyce Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8145 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8146 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery brass inspection car??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8147 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery brass inspection car??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8148 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/2/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8149 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/2/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8150 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/3/2009
Subject: Varney Ore Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8151 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/3/2009
Subject: thank you
Group: vintageHO Message: 8152 From: Charles Windes Date: 1/3/2009
Subject: Re: thank you
Group: vintageHO Message: 8153 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/3/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8154 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/3/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8155 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/3/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8156 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/3/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8157 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/3/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8158 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/3/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8159 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/3/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8160 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/3/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8161 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 1/3/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8162 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/3/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8163 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 1/3/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8164 From: Karl Peters Date: 1/4/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8165 From: Charles Windes Date: 1/4/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8166 From: oahurailway Date: 1/4/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8167 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/4/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8168 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/5/2009
Subject: More Vids
Group: vintageHO Message: 8169 From: John Hagen Date: 1/6/2009
Subject: Roundhouse 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 8170 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/7/2009
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 8171 From: John Hagen Date: 1/7/2009
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 8172 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/7/2009
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 8173 From: John Hagen Date: 1/7/2009
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 8174 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/7/2009
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 8175 From: Morgan Smith Date: 1/7/2009
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 8176 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/7/2009
Subject: Proper Jewel colors on steam engines and Cabeese lanterns
Group: vintageHO Message: 8177 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 1/7/2009
Subject: Re: Proper Jewel colors on steam engines and Cabeese lanterns
Group: vintageHO Message: 8178 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/7/2009
Subject: Re: Proper Jewel colors on steam engines and Cabeese lanterns
Group: vintageHO Message: 8179 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/8/2009
Subject: Re: Proper Jewel colors on steam engines and Cabeese lanterns
Group: vintageHO Message: 8180 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/8/2009
Subject: Re: Proper Jewel colors on steam engines and Cabeese lanterns
Group: vintageHO Message: 8181 From: John Hagen Date: 1/8/2009
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 8182 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/8/2009
Subject: tyco operating hopper cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8183 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 1/8/2009
Subject: Re: tyco operating hopper cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8184 From: Maynard Keith Franklin Date: 1/8/2009
Subject: Locomotive Classification Lights
Group: vintageHO Message: 8185 From: nycepeter Date: 1/8/2009
Subject: Hobbytown of Boston
Group: vintageHO Message: 8186 From: Chris B Date: 1/8/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston
Group: vintageHO Message: 8187 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/8/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Classification Lights
Group: vintageHO Message: 8188 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 1/8/2009
Subject: Trackside Specialties
Group: vintageHO Message: 8189 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 1/8/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties
Group: vintageHO Message: 8190 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/8/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties
Group: vintageHO Message: 8191 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 1/8/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties
Group: vintageHO Message: 8192 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/8/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties
Group: vintageHO Message: 8193 From: John Hagen Date: 1/8/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties
Group: vintageHO Message: 8194 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/8/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties
Group: vintageHO Message: 8195 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/8/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties
Group: vintageHO Message: 8196 From: Peter Nyce Date: 1/8/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston
Group: vintageHO Message: 8197 From: Chris B Date: 1/9/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston
Group: vintageHO Message: 8198 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/9/2009
Subject: Question on a John Allen Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 8199 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 1/9/2009
Subject: Re: Question on a John Allen Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 8200 From: John Hagen Date: 1/9/2009
Subject: Re: Question on a John Allen Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 8201 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 1/9/2009
Subject: Re: Question on a John Allen Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 8202 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/9/2009
Subject: Re: Question on a John Allen Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 8203 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/9/2009
Subject: Re: Question on a John Allen Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 8204 From: Lowell Dorman Date: 1/10/2009
Subject: Re: Question on a John Allen Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 8205 From: Glen Thomas Date: 1/10/2009
Subject: Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8206 From: oljoeoh Date: 1/10/2009
Subject: Re: Question on a John Allen Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 8207 From: Gerry D Date: 1/10/2009
Subject: Re: tyco operating hopper cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8208 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/10/2009
Subject: Re: Question on a John Allen Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 8209 From: Gerry D Date: 1/10/2009
Subject: Re: tyco operating hopper cars follow up
Group: vintageHO Message: 8210 From: John Hagen Date: 1/10/2009
Subject: MDC 0-6-0 Parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 8211 From: Roger Aultman Date: 1/10/2009
Subject: Re: MDC 0-6-0 Parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 8212 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/10/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8213 From: Mike Sloane Date: 1/10/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8214 From: Glen Thomas Date: 1/10/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8215 From: rrdeffinger@msn.com Date: 1/10/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8216 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/10/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8217 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/10/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8218 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/10/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8219 From: John Hagen Date: 1/10/2009
Subject: Re: MDC 0-6-0 Parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 8220 From: topstokes Date: 1/12/2009
Subject: John Allen Engine #45
Group: vintageHO Message: 8221 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/12/2009
Subject: Re: John Allen Engine #45
Group: vintageHO Message: 8222 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 1/12/2009
Subject: Re: John Allen Engine #45
Group: vintageHO Message: 8223 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 1/12/2009
Subject: Re: John Allen Engine #45
Group: vintageHO Message: 8224 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 1/12/2009
Subject: Re: John Allen Engine #45
Group: vintageHO Message: 8225 From: don stokes Date: 1/12/2009
Subject: Re: John Allen Engine #45
Group: vintageHO Message: 8226 From: lvtrainmeet Date: 1/12/2009
Subject: Lehigh valley Train meet this weekend
Group: vintageHO Message: 8227 From: Tom Date: 1/12/2009
Subject: WANTED Mantua Southern Crescent Pacific Loco Cab
Group: vintageHO Message: 8228 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/13/2009
Subject: Pollock cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8229 From: Russ Shiel Date: 1/13/2009
Subject: Red Ball card sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 8230 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/13/2009
Subject: Re: Pollock cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8231 From: erieberk Date: 1/15/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball card sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 8232 From: erieberk Date: 1/15/2009
Subject: Re: Pollock cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8233 From: erieberk Date: 1/16/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball card sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 8234 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 1/17/2009
Subject: Installing Athearn rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 8235 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 1/17/2009
Subject: Re: Installing Athearn rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 8236 From: oljoe@landolls.com Date: 1/18/2009
Subject: Re: Installing Athearn rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 8237 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/18/2009
Subject: Re: Pollock cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8238 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 1/18/2009
Subject: Penn Line archive photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 8239 From: rrdeffinger@msn.com Date: 1/18/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line archive photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 8240 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 1/18/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 8241 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/18/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line archive photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 8242 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/18/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line archive photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 8243 From: Mike Date: 1/19/2009
Subject: Re: Installing Athearn rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 8244 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/19/2009
Subject: Re: Installing Athearn rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 8245 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 1/19/2009
Subject: Re: Installing Athearn rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 8246 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/19/2009
Subject: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8247 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/19/2009
Subject: Re: Installing Athearn rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 8248 From: erieberk Date: 1/19/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball car sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 8249 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 1/19/2009
Subject: Re: Installing Athearn rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 8250 From: railwaymodeler Date: 1/19/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8251 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/19/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8252 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/19/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8253 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/19/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8254 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/19/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8255 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/19/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8256 From: Russ Shiel Date: 1/20/2009
Subject: Red Ball resolved...now...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8257 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/20/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball resolved...now...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8258 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/20/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball resolved...now...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8259 From: Larry Date: 1/20/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball resolved...now...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8260 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/20/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball resolved...now...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8261 From: erieberk Date: 1/20/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball resolved...now...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8262 From: Ed Weldon Date: 1/20/2009
Subject: First Roundhouse 0-6-0's w/ lead cast boilers and brass cabs
Group: vintageHO Message: 8263 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/20/2009
Subject: Re: First Roundhouse 0-6-0's w/ lead cast boilers and brass cabs
Group: vintageHO Message: 8264 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/20/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball resolved...now...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8265 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/20/2009
Subject: Re: First Roundhouse 0-6-0's w/ lead cast boilers and brass cabs
Group: vintageHO Message: 8266 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball resolved...now...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8267 From: Russ Shiel Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Olympic Cascadian
Group: vintageHO Message: 8268 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Af
Group: vintageHO Message: 8269 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8270 From: Larry Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8271 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8272 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8273 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8274 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8275 From: John Hagen Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8276 From: erieberk Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball resolved...now...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8277 From: erieberk Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8278 From: John Hagen Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8279 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8280 From: erieberk Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Car Sides, Continued
Group: vintageHO Message: 8281 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8282 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8283 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8284 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8285 From: Ron Plyler Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8286 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8287 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8288 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8289 From: trainliker Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8290 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8291 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8292 From: Chris B Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8293 From: asleepy60 Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: What Railroad if Any?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8294 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: What Railroad if Any?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8295 From: Chris B Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: two cast brass tenders on ebay?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8296 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: two cast brass tenders on ebay?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8297 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8298 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: two cast brass tenders on ebay?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8299 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: What Railroad if Any?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8300 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8301 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8302 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8303 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8304 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: picture worth 1000 words
Group: vintageHO Message: 8305 From: Louis Greiff Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8306 From: Jim Waterman Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8307 From: Jim Waterman Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8308 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8309 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8310 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: What Railroad if Any?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8311 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8312 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8313 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Ho value
Group: vintageHO Message: 8314 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Ho value
Group: vintageHO Message: 8315 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8316 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Af
Group: vintageHO Message: 8317 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8318 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8319 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8320 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8321 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity A
Group: vintageHO Message: 8322 From: Chris B Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8323 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity A
Group: vintageHO Message: 8324 From: asleepy60 Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: What Railroad if Any?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8325 From: railwaymodeler Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8326 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8327 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8328 From: Garry Spear Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: two cast brass tenders on ebay?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8329 From: Louis Greiff Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8330 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: What Railroad if Any?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8331 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: two cast brass tenders on ebay?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8332 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8333 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8334 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8335 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/21/2009
Subject: Re: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity A
Group: vintageHO Message: 8336 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: What Railroad if Any?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8337 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8338 From: oljoeoh Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8339 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8340 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8341 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity A
Group: vintageHO Message: 8342 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: What Railroad if Any?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8343 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8344 From: Ed Weldon Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: First Roundhouse 0-6-0's w/ lead cast boilers and brass cabs
Group: vintageHO Message: 8345 From: John Hagen Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: First Roundhouse 0-6-0's w/ lead cast boilers and brass cabs
Group: vintageHO Message: 8346 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: First Roundhouse 0-6-0's w/ lead cast boilers and brass cabs
Group: vintageHO Message: 8347 From: asleepy60 Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: What Railroad If Any?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8348 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: What Railroad If Any?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8349 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: What Railroad If Any?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8350 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Varney Meta lPassenger
Group: vintageHO Message: 8351 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: just a thought
Group: vintageHO Message: 8352 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: What Railroad if Any?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8353 From: Karl Peters Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8354 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Who made HO CNW HO tinplate?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8355 From: erieberk Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Reefer Sides, Continued
Group: vintageHO Message: 8356 From: erieberk Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: Who made HO CNW HO tinplate?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8357 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: Who made HO CNW HO tinplate?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8358 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: C&NW passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8359 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Meta lPassenger
Group: vintageHO Message: 8360 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: Who made HO CNW HO tinplate?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8361 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Meta lPassenger
Group: vintageHO Message: 8362 From: erieberk Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Meta lPassenger
Group: vintageHO Message: 8363 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Blue Line C&NW
Group: vintageHO Message: 8364 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW
Group: vintageHO Message: 8365 From: erieberk Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: What Railroad If Any?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8366 From: erieberk Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW
Group: vintageHO Message: 8367 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line C&NW
Group: vintageHO Message: 8368 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: What Railroad If Any?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8369 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/22/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line C&NW
Group: vintageHO Message: 8370 From: fydill Date: 1/23/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line archive photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 8371 From: Chris B Date: 1/23/2009
Subject: maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item number: 2
Group: vintageHO Message: 8372 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/23/2009
Subject: Re: maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item numbe
Group: vintageHO Message: 8373 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/23/2009
Subject: Re: maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item numbe
Group: vintageHO Message: 8374 From: Chris B Date: 1/23/2009
Subject: Re: maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item numbe
Group: vintageHO Message: 8375 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/23/2009
Subject: Re: maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item numbe
Group: vintageHO Message: 8376 From: Ted Walton Date: 1/23/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains(Collecting) - What about accessories?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8377 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/23/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains(Collecting) - What about accessories?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8378 From: Mike Sloane Date: 1/23/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains(Collecting) - What about accessories?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8379 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/23/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains(Collecting) - What about accessories?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8380 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/23/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains(Collecting) - What about accessories?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8381 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/23/2009
Subject: Re: HO Trains(Collecting) - What about accessories?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8382 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 1/24/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line archive photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 8383 From: fydill Date: 1/24/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line archive photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 8384 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Blue Line "Shorties"
Group: vintageHO Message: 8385 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line archive photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 8386 From: Roger Aultman Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line "Shorties"
Group: vintageHO Message: 8387 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Being a pest.......
Group: vintageHO Message: 8388 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Ambroid Passenger Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 8389 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Re: Being a pest.......
Group: vintageHO Message: 8390 From: Chris B Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Re: Being a pest.......
Group: vintageHO Message: 8391 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: More Penn Line Archives photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 8392 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Trackside Specialties Prototype Photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 8393 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Trackside Specialties
Group: vintageHO Message: 8394 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Re: Being a pest.......
Group: vintageHO Message: 8395 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line "Shorties"
Group: vintageHO Message: 8396 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Re: Being a pest.......
Group: vintageHO Message: 8397 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW
Group: vintageHO Message: 8398 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line "Shorties"
Group: vintageHO Message: 8399 From: Chris B Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Re: Being a pest.......
Group: vintageHO Message: 8400 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Penn Line Protypes from John English
Group: vintageHO Message: 8401 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Re: Ambroid Passenger Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 8402 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW
Group: vintageHO Message: 8403 From: Dst8596587@aol.com Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Re: Being a pest.......
Group: vintageHO Message: 8404 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW
Group: vintageHO Message: 8405 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/25/2009
Subject: Re: Being a pest.......
Group: vintageHO Message: 8406 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW
Group: vintageHO Message: 8407 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line "Shorties"
Group: vintageHO Message: 8408 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: Re: Ambroid Passenger Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 8409 From: Bill Wright Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: Tyco unloading boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 8410 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line "Shorties"
Group: vintageHO Message: 8411 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: Re: Ambroid Passenger Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 8412 From: oljoeoh Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: Re: Ambroid Passenger Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 8413 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: Re: Ambroid Passenger Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 8414 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: Re: Ambroid Passenger Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 8415 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line "Shorties"
Group: vintageHO Message: 8416 From: James Bartelt Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: Re: Tyco unloading boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 8417 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: Re: Being a pest.......
Group: vintageHO Message: 8418 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: odd, rare diesel
Group: vintageHO Message: 8419 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: need help with ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 8420 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 8421 From: Chris B Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: Re: need help with ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 8422 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: Re: need help with ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 8423 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: odd possible E unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8424 From: John Barlow Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: Re: odd, rare diesel
Group: vintageHO Message: 8425 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/26/2009
Subject: Re: odd possible E unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8426 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: odd possible E unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8427 From: bill_pittman1 Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8428 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: odd possible E unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8429 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: odd, rare diesel
Group: vintageHO Message: 8430 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8431 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: odd possible E unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8432 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: odd possible E unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8433 From: Chris B Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: odd possible E unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8434 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: E unit ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 8435 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: E unit ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 8436 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: E unit ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 8437 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: odd possible E unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8438 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: odd possible E unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 8439 From: Bill Pittman Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8440 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8441 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8442 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8443 From: Bill Pittman Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8444 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8445 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8446 From: Bill Pittman Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8447 From: Bill Pittman Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8448 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8449 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8450 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8451 From: Bill Pittman Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8452 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8453 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8454 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8455 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8456 From: John Hagen Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8457 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8458 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8459 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8460 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8461 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: TYCO poor copy GG-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8462 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8463 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: TYCO poor copy GG-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8464 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: TYCO poor copy GG-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8465 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8466 From: John Hagen Date: 1/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8467 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/28/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8468 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/28/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8469 From: erieberk Date: 1/28/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8470 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/28/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8471 From: erieberk Date: 1/28/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Reefer Sides part 3
Group: vintageHO Message: 8472 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/28/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8473 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/28/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Reefer Sides part 3
Group: vintageHO Message: 8474 From: Jim Snyder Date: 1/29/2009
Subject: A New Day, New Life!!!
Group: vintageHO Message: 8475 From: Charles Windes Date: 1/29/2009
Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8476 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 1/29/2009
Subject: Re: A New Day, New Life!!!
Group: vintageHO Message: 8477 From: Bill Wright Date: 1/30/2009
Subject: Stevens Palace Live Poultry Car in RMC
Group: vintageHO Message: 8478 From: Charles Windes Date: 1/30/2009
Subject: Re: Sharp indeedBrianIt is sharp indeed very nice.Cahrl;ie
Group: vintageHO Message: 8479 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/30/2009
Subject: source
Group: vintageHO Message: 8480 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 1/30/2009
Subject: Re: source
Group: vintageHO Message: 8481 From: Jim Waterman Date: 1/30/2009
Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 8482 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 1/31/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 8483 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/31/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Red Ball Reefer Sides part 3
Group: vintageHO Message: 8484 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/31/2009
Subject: kit or project ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8485 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/31/2009
Subject: little addition to new pieces
Group: vintageHO Message: 8486 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/31/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball car sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 8487 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/31/2009
Subject: Re: kit or project ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8488 From: nvrr49 Date: 1/31/2009
Subject: Mantua Truck conversion
Group: vintageHO Message: 8489 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/31/2009
Subject: Re: kit or project ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8490 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/31/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Truck conversion
Group: vintageHO Message: 8491 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 1/31/2009
Subject: American Beauty Line Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8492 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/31/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Truck conversion
Group: vintageHO Message: 8493 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/31/2009
Subject: Re: American Beauty Line Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8494 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/31/2009
Subject: Re: American Beauty Line Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8495 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 1/31/2009
Subject: Removing Coupler Box from Mantua Trucks(was Mantua Truck conversion)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8496 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/31/2009
Subject: Re: American Beauty Line Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8497 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 1/31/2009
Subject: Re: Removing Coupler Box from Mantua Trucks, p.s.
Group: vintageHO Message: 8498 From: nvrr49 Date: 1/31/2009
Subject: Re: Removing Coupler Box from Mantua Trucks(was Mantua Truck convers
Group: vintageHO Message: 8499 From: Mike Sloane Date: 2/1/2009
Subject: Re: Removing Coupler Box from Mantua Trucks(was Mantua Truck convers
Group: vintageHO Message: 8500 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 2/1/2009
Subject: Re: Alloy on Mantua Truck Bolster
Group: vintageHO Message: 8501 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 2/1/2009
Subject: Re: Alloy on Mantua Truck Bolster
Group: vintageHO Message: 8502 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 2/1/2009
Subject: Re: Alloy on Mantua Truck Bolster
Group: vintageHO Message: 8503 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 2/1/2009
Subject: Re: Alloy on Mantua Truck Bolster
Group: vintageHO Message: 8504 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/2/2009
Subject: New Vids
Group: vintageHO Message: 8505 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/3/2009
Subject: Denver Club Video
Group: vintageHO Message: 8506 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/3/2009
Subject: American Flyer HO diecast freight cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8507 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/3/2009
Subject: Re: American Flyer HO diecast freight cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8508 From: Chris B Date: 2/3/2009
Subject: Re: American Flyer HO diecast freight cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8509 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/3/2009
Subject: Re: American Flyer HO diecast freight cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8510 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/3/2009
Subject: Re: American Flyer HO diecast freight cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8511 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/3/2009
Subject: Re: American Flyer HO diecast freight cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8512 From: Chris B Date: 2/3/2009
Subject: Re: American Flyer HO diecast freight cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8513 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/3/2009
Subject: Re: American Flyer HO diecast freight cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8514 From: man.ukin Date: 2/4/2009
Subject: Marklin/LGB files today insolvency/bankruptcy
Group: vintageHO Message: 8515 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 2/6/2009
Subject: What is this? (ebay auction of brass HH1000)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8516 From: Glen Thomas Date: 2/6/2009
Subject: Re: What is this? (ebay auction of brass HH1000)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8517 From: Chris B Date: 2/6/2009
Subject: Re: What is this? (ebay auction of brass HH1000)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8518 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/6/2009
Subject: Re: What is this? (ebay auction of brass HH1000)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8519 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/6/2009
Subject: HH 600
Group: vintageHO Message: 8520 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/6/2009
Subject: Latest Acquisitions
Group: vintageHO Message: 8521 From: Larry Date: 2/6/2009
Subject: New Memeber Larry
Group: vintageHO Message: 8522 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/6/2009
Subject: Re: New Memeber Larry
Group: vintageHO Message: 8523 From: Larry L. Doub Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Latest Acquisitions
Group: vintageHO Message: 8524 From: Jim Waterman Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: What is this? (ebay auction of brass HH1000)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8525 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: What is this? (ebay auction of brass HH1000)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8526 From: Larry Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8527 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8528 From: Charles Windes Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: New Memeber Larry
Group: vintageHO Message: 8529 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8530 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8531 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8532 From: Roger Aultman Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8533 From: John Hagen Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8534 From: John Hagen Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8535 From: Web Shopper Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass? - Scale deconstruction
Group: vintageHO Message: 8536 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8537 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8538 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8539 From: Web Shopper Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8540 From: Larry Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8541 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8542 From: Chris B Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8543 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8544 From: Larry Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8545 From: Larry Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8546 From: Larry Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: MDC Motor brushes
Group: vintageHO Message: 8547 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Knapp / Bowser redlands Mountains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8548 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8549 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8550 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8551 From: John Hagen Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8552 From: Larry Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser redlands Mountains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8553 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser redlands Mountains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8554 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8555 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8556 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8557 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/7/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8558 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: HH 600
Group: vintageHO Message: 8559 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: New Memeber Larry
Group: vintageHO Message: 8560 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: kit or project ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8561 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: Utah Scale Models - was; Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8562 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8563 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: Utah Scale Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 8564 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8565 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: Utah Scale Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 8566 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser redlands Mountains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8567 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser redlands Mountains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8568 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8569 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8570 From: Larry Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8571 From: Larry Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8572 From: John Hagen Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8573 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8574 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8575 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: Utah Scale Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 8576 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: Utah Scale Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 8577 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8578 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8579 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8580 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8581 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Utah Scale Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 8582 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8583 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8584 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8585 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8586 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8587 From: Bill Wright Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Utah Scale Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 8588 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8589 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8590 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8591 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8592 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Utah Scale Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 8593 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8594 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 2/8/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8595 From: nvrr49 Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8596 From: Chris B Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8597 From: Bill Wright Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8598 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8599 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8600 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Re: kit or project ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8601 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: find out
Group: vintageHO Message: 8602 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8603 From: Chris B Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8604 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8605 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8606 From: Larry Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8607 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8608 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8609 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8610 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Photo attachments
Group: vintageHO Message: 8611 From: Larry Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8612 From: Chris B Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8613 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Mantua Steam Running Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8614 From: Gerald Garteiser Date: 2/9/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8615 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Running Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8616 From: nvrr49 Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8617 From: oljoeoh Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8618 From: Larry Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8619 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8620 From: Larry Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8621 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8622 From: Gerald Garteiser Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8623 From: Jack Priller Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: 4 Sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 8624 From: Chris B Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8625 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8626 From: Chris B Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8627 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Running Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8628 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8629 From: prrk4s958 Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: For Sale: MoW items
Group: vintageHO Message: 8630 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8631 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8632 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8633 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
Group: vintageHO Message: 8634 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8635 From: Jack Priller Date: 2/10/2009
Subject: Re: 4 Sale additions & pix
Group: vintageHO Message: 8636 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 2/11/2009
Subject: Winans Camel
Group: vintageHO Message: 8637 From: wildwoodjct Date: 2/11/2009
Subject: Modeller's Choice boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 8638 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/11/2009
Subject: Re: Modeller's Choice boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 8639 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/11/2009
Subject: HH 600
Group: vintageHO Message: 8640 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/11/2009
Subject: Re: Modeller's Choice boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 8641 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/11/2009
Subject: Re: Modeller's Choice boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 8642 From: Karl Peters Date: 2/11/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8643 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/11/2009
Subject: happy days
Group: vintageHO Message: 8644 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/11/2009
Subject: Re: happy days
Group: vintageHO Message: 8645 From: Lance Russwurm Date: 2/11/2009
Subject: Re: Modeller's Choice boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 8646 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 2/11/2009
Subject: Re: Winans Camel
Group: vintageHO Message: 8647 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 2/11/2009
Subject: Re: Modeller's Choice boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 8648 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/11/2009
Subject: Re: Winans Camel
Group: vintageHO Message: 8649 From: John Hagen Date: 2/11/2009
Subject: Re: Winans Camel
Group: vintageHO Message: 8650 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/12/2009
Subject: Re: Winans Camel
Group: vintageHO Message: 8651 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/12/2009
Subject: Re: Winans Camel
Group: vintageHO Message: 8652 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 2/12/2009
Subject: Re: Winans Camel
Group: vintageHO Message: 8653 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 2/12/2009
Subject: Re: Winans Camel
Group: vintageHO Message: 8654 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/12/2009
Subject: OT, (was [vintageHO] Re: Winans Camel
Group: vintageHO Message: 8655 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/12/2009
Subject: Re: Modeller's Choice boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 8656 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/12/2009
Subject: Re: Winans Camel
Group: vintageHO Message: 8657 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 2/12/2009
Subject: Re: Modeller's Choice boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 8658 From: Riverboy Date: 2/12/2009
Subject: Re: Modeller's Choice boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 8659 From: wildwoodjct Date: 2/12/2009
Subject: Re: Modeller's Choice boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 8661 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 2/12/2009
Subject: Re: Winans Camel - picture
Group: vintageHO Message: 8662 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/13/2009
Subject: Re: Winans Camel - picture
Group: vintageHO Message: 8663 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/13/2009
Subject: Re: Winans Camel - picture
Group: vintageHO Message: 8664 From: Larry Date: 2/13/2009
Subject: Some ID please
Group: vintageHO Message: 8665 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/13/2009
Subject: Re: Some ID please
Group: vintageHO Message: 8666 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 2/13/2009
Subject: Re: Winans Camel - picture
Group: vintageHO Message: 8667 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/13/2009
Subject: Re: Some ID please
Group: vintageHO Message: 8668 From: Larry Date: 2/13/2009
Subject: Re: Some ID please
Group: vintageHO Message: 8669 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/13/2009
Subject: Re: Some ID please
Group: vintageHO Message: 8670 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/13/2009
Subject: Re: Some ID please
Group: vintageHO Message: 8671 From: Don Grant Date: 2/13/2009
Subject: Re: Some ID please
Group: vintageHO Message: 8672 From: Chris B Date: 2/14/2009
Subject: "Adams & Sons Foundry, Texas (was) Re: [vintageHO] find out
Group: vintageHO Message: 8673 From: Chris B Date: 2/14/2009
Subject: Re: just window shopping.... anybody recognize these? on eBay ...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8674 From: Jim Waterman Date: 2/14/2009
Subject: Re: Some ID please
Group: vintageHO Message: 8675 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/14/2009
Subject: Re: "Adams & Sons Foundry, Texas (was) Re: [vintageHO] find out
Group: vintageHO Message: 8676 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/14/2009
Subject: Re: just window shopping.... anybody recognize these? on eBay ...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8677 From: Larry Date: 2/14/2009
Subject: Re: just window shopping.... anybody recognize these? on eBay ...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8678 From: Chris B Date: 2/14/2009
Subject: Re: just window shopping.... anybody recognize these? on eBay ...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8679 From: Chris B Date: 2/14/2009
Subject: Re: "Adams & Sons Foundry, Texas (was) Re: [vintageHO] find out
Group: vintageHO Message: 8680 From: Larry Date: 2/14/2009
Subject: Re: just window shopping.... anybody recognize these? on eBay ...
Group: vintageHO Message: 8681 From: Mike Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Nickel Plate Products
Group: vintageHO Message: 8682 From: prr_homewood_jct Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8683 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8684 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8685 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Re: Nickel Plate Products
Group: vintageHO Message: 8686 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Re: Nickel Plate Products
Group: vintageHO Message: 8687 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8688 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Can Anyone Identify This Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 8689 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: I guess pictures would help!
Group: vintageHO Message: 8690 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Re: I guess pictures would help!
Group: vintageHO Message: 8691 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Re: Nickel Plate Products
Group: vintageHO Message: 8692 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Re: I guess pictures would help!
Group: vintageHO Message: 8693 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Re: I guess pictures would help!
Group: vintageHO Message: 8694 From: rrdeffinger@msn.com Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8695 From: rrdeffinger@msn.com Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8696 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8697 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: RUN vintage
Group: vintageHO Message: 8698 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8699 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Re: Nickel Plate Products
Group: vintageHO Message: 8700 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Re: I guess pictures would help!
Group: vintageHO Message: 8701 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Re: RUN vintage
Group: vintageHO Message: 8702 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Re: I guess pictures would help!
Group: vintageHO Message: 8703 From: prr_homewood_jct Date: 2/15/2009
Subject: Not the Helium car , Sorry
Group: vintageHO Message: 8704 From: Mike Sloane Date: 2/16/2009
Subject: Re: I guess pictures would help!
Group: vintageHO Message: 8705 From: frank Date: 2/16/2009
Subject: cgl's Unknown Mech #1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8706 From: frank Date: 2/16/2009
Subject: Photos posted------------ frank toptrain album
Group: vintageHO Message: 8707 From: mrslandser Date: 2/16/2009
Subject: Pacific Pike
Group: vintageHO Message: 8708 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/16/2009
Subject: Re: Pacific Pike
Group: vintageHO Message: 8709 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 2/16/2009
Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8710 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/16/2009
Subject: Re: Nickel Plate Products
Group: vintageHO Message: 8711 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/16/2009
Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8712 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/16/2009
Subject: Re: Nickel Plate Products
Group: vintageHO Message: 8713 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 2/16/2009
Subject: Re: Pacific Pike
Group: vintageHO Message: 8714 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 2/16/2009
Subject: Re: Nickel Plate Products
Group: vintageHO Message: 8715 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/16/2009
Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8716 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Strombecker Rock Island TA ROCKET
Group: vintageHO Message: 8717 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Re: Strombecker Rock Island TA ROCKET
Group: vintageHO Message: 8718 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: A vintage car request
Group: vintageHO Message: 8719 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Re: Strombecker Rock Island TA ROCKET
Group: vintageHO Message: 8720 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Really Cheap stuff for sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 8721 From: Riverboy Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Re: Really Cheap stuff for sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 8722 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Re: Really Cheap stuff for sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 8723 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Re: Really Cheap stuff for sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 8724 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Re: Really Cheap stuff for sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 8725 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Re: Really Cheap stuff for sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 8726 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Strombecker Rocket and others
Group: vintageHO Message: 8727 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Re: Really Cheap stuff for sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 8728 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Re: Strombecker Rocket and others
Group: vintageHO Message: 8729 From: Chris B Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Re: Strombecker Rocket and others
Group: vintageHO Message: 8730 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Re: Popular Science article
Group: vintageHO Message: 8731 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Sorta Cheap stuff for sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 8732 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Re: Really Cheap stuff for sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 8733 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Re: Strombecker Rocket and others
Group: vintageHO Message: 8734 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Re: Strombecker Rocket and others
Group: vintageHO Message: 8735 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Re: Strombecker Rocket and others
Group: vintageHO Message: 8736 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/17/2009
Subject: Re: Strombecker Rocket and others
Group: vintageHO Message: 8737 From: erieberk Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: StromBecKer Rocket and others
Group: vintageHO Message: 8738 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: StromBecKer Rocket and others
Group: vintageHO Message: 8739 From: erieberk Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: StromBecKer Catalog Listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 8740 From: frank Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Varney 40' Box cars ( plastic ) photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 8741 From: erieberk Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: Strombecker Rock Island TA ROCKET
Group: vintageHO Message: 8742 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8743 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8744 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 8745 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8746 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8747 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8748 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8749 From: Chris B Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8750 From: Mike Sloane Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8751 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: StromBecKer Rocket and others
Group: vintageHO Message: 8752 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8753 From: Chris B Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8754 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8755 From: trainliker Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8756 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8757 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8758 From: Web Shopper Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8759 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: layout and area
Group: vintageHO Message: 8760 From: Chris B Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8761 From: sean naylor Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8762 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8763 From: Web Shopper Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8764 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8765 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8766 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8767 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8768 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: StromBecKer Catalog Listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 8769 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 8770 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8771 From: Chris B Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8772 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8773 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8774 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 8775 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 8776 From: railwaymodeler Date: 2/19/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 8777 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/19/2009
Subject: Aristo Craft/New One Mikes
Group: vintageHO Message: 8778 From: jerrygart5 Date: 2/19/2009
Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8779 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 2/19/2009
Subject: shims (was) any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8780 From: John Hagen Date: 2/19/2009
Subject: Re: StromBecKer Catalog Listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 8781 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/19/2009
Subject: Re: shims (was) any rule of thumb ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 8782 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 2/19/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 8783 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/19/2009
Subject: Re: StromBecKer Catalog Listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 8784 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 2/19/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 8785 From: Riverboy Date: 2/19/2009
Subject: Need Parts For An Athearn Metal RDC & Mantual Metal Reefer
Group: vintageHO Message: 8786 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/19/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 8787 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/19/2009
Subject: Rivarossi 4-4-2 vs New One 4-4-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 8788 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 2/19/2009
Subject: OT not so vintage buildings
Group: vintageHO Message: 8789 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/19/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 8790 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/19/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 8791 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/19/2009
Subject: Re: Strombecker Rock Island TA ROCKET
Group: vintageHO Message: 8792 From: prr_homewood_jct Date: 2/19/2009
Subject: ahm chemical container car design ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 8793 From: rrdeffinger@msn.com Date: 2/19/2009
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 4-4-2 vs New One 4-4-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 8794 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/20/2009
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 4-4-2 vs New One 4-4-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 8795 From: John Hagen Date: 2/20/2009
Subject: Re: Viewing attachments (was Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8796 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/20/2009
Subject: Re: Viewing attachments (was Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8797 From: John Hagen Date: 2/20/2009
Subject: Re: Test Circle (was Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8798 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 2/20/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 8799 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 2/20/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One Mikes
Group: vintageHO Message: 8800 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/20/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One Mikes
Group: vintageHO Message: 8801 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/20/2009
Subject: switching to DSL
Group: vintageHO Message: 8802 From: Raymond Lorts Sr Date: 2/20/2009
Subject: Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 8803 From: rrdeffinger@msn.com Date: 2/20/2009
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 4-4-2 vs New One 4-4-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 8804 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: OT [vintageHO] switching to DSL
Group: vintageHO Message: 8805 From: Mike Sloane Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: OT [vintageHO] switching to DSL
Group: vintageHO Message: 8806 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: OT [vintageHO] switching to DSL
Group: vintageHO Message: 8807 From: Gerald Garteiser Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 8808 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: OT [vintageHO] switching to DSL
Group: vintageHO Message: 8809 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] back on
Group: vintageHO Message: 8810 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One Mikes
Group: vintageHO Message: 8811 From: Charles Windes Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] back on
Group: vintageHO Message: 8812 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: NewOne responses, Pictures DSL
Group: vintageHO Message: 8813 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] back on
Group: vintageHO Message: 8814 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: NewOne responses, Pictures DSL
Group: vintageHO Message: 8815 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: varney parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 8816 From: Jim Waterman Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: NewOne responses, Pictures DSL
Group: vintageHO Message: 8817 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] back on
Group: vintageHO Message: 8818 From: Peter Nyce Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
Group: vintageHO Message: 8819 From: Charlie Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
Group: vintageHO Message: 8820 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
Group: vintageHO Message: 8821 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
Group: vintageHO Message: 8822 From: nycepeter Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
Group: vintageHO Message: 8823 From: nycepeter Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
Group: vintageHO Message: 8824 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
Group: vintageHO Message: 8825 From: nycepeter Date: 2/21/2009
Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
Group: vintageHO Message: 8826 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 2/22/2009
Subject: Re: NewOne responses, Pictures DSL
Group: vintageHO Message: 8827 From: Jim Waterman Date: 2/22/2009
Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] back on
Group: vintageHO Message: 8828 From: Mike Sloane Date: 2/22/2009
Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
Group: vintageHO Message: 8829 From: Thomas Parsons Date: 2/22/2009
Subject: Re: Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 8830 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/22/2009
Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
Group: vintageHO Message: 8831 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/22/2009
Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
Group: vintageHO Message: 8832 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 2/22/2009
Subject: Always a good article for vintage railroading
Group: vintageHO Message: 8833 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/22/2009
Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
Group: vintageHO Message: 8834 From: rrdeffinger@msn.com Date: 2/22/2009
Subject: New One B&O blue 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 8835 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/23/2009
Subject: Re: New One B&O blue 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 8836 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 2/23/2009
Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
Group: vintageHO Message: 8837 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/23/2009
Subject: Re: New One B&O blue 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 8838 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/23/2009
Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
Group: vintageHO Message: 8839 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 2/23/2009
Subject: Re: New One B&O blue 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 8840 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 2/23/2009
Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
Group: vintageHO Message: 8841 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/23/2009
Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
Group: vintageHO Message: 8842 From: oljoeoh Date: 2/24/2009
Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
Group: vintageHO Message: 8843 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/24/2009
Subject: .HOTCO/GHC GG-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8844 From: oljoeoh Date: 2/24/2009
Subject: Re: .HOTCO/GHC GG-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8845 From: oljoeoh Date: 2/24/2009
Subject: Re: .HOTCO/GHC GG-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 8846 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 2/24/2009
Subject: Aristo Craft/:Polks
Group: vintageHO Message: 8847 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 2/24/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
Group: vintageHO Message: 8848 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 2/24/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
Group: vintageHO Message: 8849 From: Jim Waterman Date: 2/24/2009
Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
Group: vintageHO Message: 8850 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 2/24/2009
Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
Group: vintageHO Message: 8851 From: erieberk Date: 2/25/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
Group: vintageHO Message: 8852 From: erieberk Date: 2/25/2009
Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
Group: vintageHO Message: 8853 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 2/25/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
Group: vintageHO Message: 8854 From: Roger Aultman Date: 2/25/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
Group: vintageHO Message: 8855 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/25/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
Group: vintageHO Message: 8856 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/25/2009
Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
Group: vintageHO Message: 8857 From: Roger Aultman Date: 2/25/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
Group: vintageHO Message: 8858 From: Roger Aultman Date: 2/25/2009
Subject: !!! FOUND IT
Group: vintageHO Message: 8859 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/25/2009
Subject: Re: !!! FOUND IT
Group: vintageHO Message: 8860 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 2/25/2009
Subject: Re: !!! FOUND IT
Group: vintageHO Message: 8861 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/25/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
Group: vintageHO Message: 8862 From: Jay Matz Date: 2/25/2009
Subject: Silver Streak tank Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 8863 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 2/26/2009
Subject: Aristo Craft/:Polks
Group: vintageHO Message: 8864 From: Gerald Garteiser Date: 2/26/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
Group: vintageHO Message: 8865 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/27/2009
Subject: End of an era
Group: vintageHO Message: 8866 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 3/2/2009
Subject: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8867 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/2/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8868 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 3/2/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8869 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/2/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8870 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8871 From: Denny Anspach Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8872 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8873 From: Henry Hultgren Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8874 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8875 From: Gerald Garteiser Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8876 From: John Hagen Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8877 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8878 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8879 From: keith gutshall Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8880 From: Chris B Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8881 From: Railroad Modeler Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8882 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8883 From: keith gutshall Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8884 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8885 From: Chris B Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8886 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8887 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8888 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8889 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/4/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8890 From: Chris B Date: 3/4/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8891 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/4/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8892 From: John Hagen Date: 3/4/2009
Subject: Scratching & Bashing (Was: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8893 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 3/4/2009
Subject: Re: Scratching & Bashing (Was: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8894 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 3/4/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8895 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/4/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8896 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/4/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8897 From: Karl Peters Date: 3/4/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8898 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/4/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8899 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/4/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8900 From: Chris B Date: 3/4/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8901 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/4/2009
Subject: Re: Scratching & Bashing (Was: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements)
Group: vintageHO Message: 8902 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/4/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8903 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/4/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8904 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/4/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8905 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/4/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8906 From: Mike Date: 3/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8907 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 3/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8908 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 3/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8909 From: John Hagen Date: 3/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8910 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8911 From: Mike Sloane Date: 3/5/2009
Subject: Ohio Seamless Tube car (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product
Group: vintageHO Message: 8912 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 3/5/2009
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Prod
Group: vintageHO Message: 8913 From: keith gutshall Date: 3/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8914 From: Jeff Cornelius Date: 3/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8915 From: John Hagen Date: 3/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8916 From: Karl Peters Date: 3/5/2009
Subject: FINE WOODWORKING article
Group: vintageHO Message: 8917 From: Chris B Date: 3/5/2009
Subject: Re: FINE WOODWORKING article
Group: vintageHO Message: 8918 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8919 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/5/2009
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Prod
Group: vintageHO Message: 8920 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8921 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8922 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/5/2009
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Prod
Group: vintageHO Message: 8923 From: John Hagen Date: 3/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8924 From: Mike Date: 3/6/2009
Subject: Steel Bar vs Steel Tube // Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8925 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/6/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8926 From: Mike Sloane Date: 3/6/2009
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Prod
Group: vintageHO Message: 8927 From: prr_homewood_jct Date: 3/6/2009
Subject: AHM chemical container car question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8928 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 3/6/2009
Subject: Re: AHM chemical container car question
Group: vintageHO Message: 8929 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/6/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8930 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 3/6/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
Group: vintageHO Message: 8931 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/6/2009
Subject: Layout advances
Group: vintageHO Message: 8932 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/6/2009
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Prod
Group: vintageHO Message: 8933 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/7/2009
Subject: Re: Layout advances
Group: vintageHO Message: 8934 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/7/2009
Subject: Help I need
Group: vintageHO Message: 8935 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/7/2009
Subject: Re: Help I need
Group: vintageHO Message: 8936 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/8/2009
Subject: RH brass switch
Group: vintageHO Message: 8937 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 3/8/2009
Subject: Space capsules
Group: vintageHO Message: 8938 From: Riverboy Date: 3/8/2009
Subject: New One 4-2-2 Steam Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 8939 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/8/2009
Subject: Re: New One 4-2-2 Steam Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 8940 From: rrdeffinger@msn.com Date: 3/8/2009
Subject: Re: New One 4-2-2 Steam Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 8941 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/8/2009
Subject: Re: New One 4-2-2 Steam Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 8942 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/9/2009
Subject: Re: New One 4-2-2 Steam Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 8943 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/9/2009
Subject: Aristo Craft 4-2-2 Bicycle
Group: vintageHO Message: 8944 From: Riverboy Date: 3/9/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft 4-2-2 Bicycle
Group: vintageHO Message: 8945 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 3/9/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft 4-2-2 Bicycle
Group: vintageHO Message: 8946 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/9/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft 4-2-2 Bicycle
Group: vintageHO Message: 8947 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/9/2009
Subject: Re: Aristo Craft 4-2-2 Bicycle
Group: vintageHO Message: 8948 From: litant Date: 3/9/2009
Subject: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 8949 From: jimheck@losch.net Date: 3/10/2009
Subject: Computer down
Group: vintageHO Message: 8950 From: litant Date: 3/10/2009
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 8951 From: Mike Sloane Date: 3/10/2009
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 8952 From: jimheck@losch.net Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8953 From: nvrr49 Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 8954 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8955 From: John Hagen Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8956 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8957 From: Chris B Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8958 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8959 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8960 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8961 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8962 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8963 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8964 From: trainliker Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8965 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8966 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8967 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8968 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8969 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8970 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems - For Glenn
Group: vintageHO Message: 8971 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8972 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8973 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8974 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems - For Glenn
Group: vintageHO Message: 8975 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems - For Glenn
Group: vintageHO Message: 8976 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Back to trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8977 From: Chris B Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8978 From: Chris B Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Back to trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8979 From: Maynard Keith Franklin Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8980 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8981 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8982 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 3/11/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8983 From: Railroad Modeler Date: 3/12/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8984 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/12/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8985 From: John Hagen Date: 3/12/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8986 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/12/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8987 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/12/2009
Subject: Re: Problems
Group: vintageHO Message: 8988 From: Karl Peters Date: 3/12/2009
Subject: Re: Back to trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 8989 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 3/12/2009
Subject: FS: Diecast Freight Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8990 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/12/2009
Subject: Fw: Layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 8991 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/12/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 8992 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 3/12/2009
Subject: Sold: Diecast Freight Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 8993 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/13/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 8994 From: jim heckard Date: 3/13/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 8995 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 3/13/2009
Subject: ID help
Group: vintageHO Message: 8996 From: Riverboy Date: 3/13/2009
Subject: Re: ID help
Group: vintageHO Message: 8997 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/13/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 8998 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/13/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 8999 From: Chris B Date: 3/13/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 9000 From: Mike Sloane Date: 3/13/2009
Subject: Re: ID help
Group: vintageHO Message: 9001 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 3/13/2009
Subject: Re: ID help
Group: vintageHO Message: 9002 From: Riverboy Date: 3/13/2009
Subject: Re: ID help
Group: vintageHO Message: 9003 From: Mike Sloane Date: 3/13/2009
Subject: Re: ID help
Group: vintageHO Message: 9004 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 3/13/2009
Subject: Re: ID help
Group: vintageHO Message: 9005 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 3/13/2009
Subject: Re: ID help
Group: vintageHO Message: 9006 From: Riverboy Date: 3/13/2009
Subject: Re: ID help
Group: vintageHO Message: 9007 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/13/2009
Subject: Re: 8-axle flat (was ID help)
Group: vintageHO Message: 9008 From: Riverboy Date: 3/13/2009
Subject: Re: 8-axle flat (was ID help)
Group: vintageHO Message: 9009 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/13/2009
Subject: Re: ID help
Group: vintageHO Message: 9010 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/13/2009
Subject: Re: ID help
Group: vintageHO Message: 9012 From: STOCKCREEK@aol.com Date: 3/14/2009
Subject: Check out my photos on Facebook
Group: vintageHO Message: 9013 From: Mike Sloane Date: 3/14/2009
Subject: Re: 8-axle flat (was ID help)
Group: vintageHO Message: 9014 From: Mike Sloane Date: 3/14/2009
Subject: Re: ID help
Group: vintageHO Message: 9015 From: Riverboy Date: 3/14/2009
Subject: Re: ID help
Group: vintageHO Message: 9016 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/14/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 9017 From: asleepy60 Date: 3/14/2009
Subject: Anybody Know What Vintage?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9018 From: curmudgeon Date: 3/14/2009
Subject: Re: Anybody Know What Vintage?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9019 From: Riverboy Date: 3/14/2009
Subject: Re: Anybody Know What Vintage?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9020 From: jim heckard Date: 3/14/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 9021 From: jim heckard Date: 3/14/2009
Subject: Re: Anybody Know What Vintage?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9022 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/14/2009
Subject: Re: Check out my photos on Facebook
Group: vintageHO Message: 9023 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/14/2009
Subject: Re: Check out my photos on Facebook
Group: vintageHO Message: 9024 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 9025 From: jim heckard Date: 3/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 9026 From: jim heckard Date: 3/15/2009
Subject: running bigger engines
Group: vintageHO Message: 9027 From: jim heckard Date: 3/15/2009
Subject: running bigger engines
Group: vintageHO Message: 9028 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 3/15/2009
Subject: Re: running bigger engines
Group: vintageHO Message: 9029 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 3/16/2009
Subject: New One Aristo Craft Locos for sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 9030 From: jim heckard Date: 3/16/2009
Subject: Re: running bigger engines
Group: vintageHO Message: 9031 From: jim heckard Date: 3/16/2009
Subject: running big engines
Group: vintageHO Message: 9032 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/17/2009
Subject: Re: running big engines
Group: vintageHO Message: 9033 From: jim heckard Date: 3/17/2009
Subject: Running what you like
Group: vintageHO Message: 9034 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/17/2009
Subject: Re: Running what you like
Group: vintageHO Message: 9035 From: jim heckard Date: 3/17/2009
Subject: Re: Running what you like
Group: vintageHO Message: 9036 From: jim heckard Date: 3/17/2009
Subject: running others
Group: vintageHO Message: 9037 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/17/2009
Subject: Re: running others
Group: vintageHO Message: 9038 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/17/2009
Subject: Re: Running what you like
Group: vintageHO Message: 9039 From: Chris B Date: 3/17/2009
Subject: Re: running others
Group: vintageHO Message: 9040 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/17/2009
Subject: Re: running others
Group: vintageHO Message: 9041 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/17/2009
Subject: Re: running others
Group: vintageHO Message: 9042 From: jim heckard Date: 3/17/2009
Subject: Re: running others
Group: vintageHO Message: 9043 From: jim heckard Date: 3/17/2009
Subject: An HO GG-1 question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9044 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/17/2009
Subject: Re: running others
Group: vintageHO Message: 9045 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/18/2009
Subject: Re: An HO GG-1 question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9046 From: jim heckard Date: 3/18/2009
Subject: Re: An HO GG-1 question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9047 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/18/2009
Subject: Re: Running what you like
Group: vintageHO Message: 9048 From: jim heckard Date: 3/18/2009
Subject: Re: Running what you like
Group: vintageHO Message: 9049 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/18/2009
Subject: Re: Running what you like
Group: vintageHO Message: 9050 From: erieberk Date: 3/18/2009
Subject: Re: running others
Group: vintageHO Message: 9051 From: Jerry Prather Date: 3/18/2009
Subject: Re: running others
Group: vintageHO Message: 9052 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/18/2009
Subject: Re: running others
Group: vintageHO Message: 9053 From: railwaymodeler Date: 3/19/2009
Subject: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 9054 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/19/2009
Subject: Re: Running what you like
Group: vintageHO Message: 9055 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/19/2009
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 9056 From: Roger Aultman Date: 3/19/2009
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 9057 From: jim heckard Date: 3/19/2009
Subject: Rivarossi Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9058 From: jim heckard Date: 3/19/2009
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 9059 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/19/2009
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 9060 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/19/2009
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9061 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/19/2009
Subject: Re: Running what you like
Group: vintageHO Message: 9062 From: jim heckard Date: 3/19/2009
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 9063 From: Glen Thomas Date: 3/19/2009
Subject: a few oldeis
Group: vintageHO Message: 9064 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/19/2009
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9065 From: toytrain13 Date: 3/20/2009
Subject: Re: a few oldeis
Group: vintageHO Message: 9066 From: Roger Aultman Date: 3/20/2009
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 9067 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/20/2009
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 9068 From: jim heckard Date: 3/20/2009
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 9069 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/20/2009
Subject: Re: a few oldeis
Group: vintageHO Message: 9070 From: Glen Thomas Date: 3/20/2009
Subject: Re: a few oldeis
Group: vintageHO Message: 9071 From: Roger Aultman Date: 3/20/2009
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 9072 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/20/2009
Subject: Re: a few oldeis
Group: vintageHO Message: 9073 From: frank Date: 3/20/2009
Subject: Photos added to tottrain album
Group: vintageHO Message: 9074 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/20/2009
Subject: Re: a few oldeis
Group: vintageHO Message: 9075 From: jim heckard Date: 3/20/2009
Subject: wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 9076 From: Glen Thomas Date: 3/21/2009
Subject: Re: a few oldeis
Group: vintageHO Message: 9077 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/21/2009
Subject: Re: running others
Group: vintageHO Message: 9078 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/21/2009
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 9079 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/21/2009
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 9080 From: jim heckard Date: 3/21/2009
Subject: for the fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9081 From: Roger Aultman Date: 3/21/2009
Subject: Re: for the fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9082 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/21/2009
Subject: Re: for the fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9083 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/21/2009
Subject: Re: for the fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9084 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/21/2009
Subject: Re: for the fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9085 From: jim heckard Date: 3/22/2009
Subject: Re: for the fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9086 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 3/22/2009
Subject: Need Athearn F-unit truck frame
Group: vintageHO Message: 9087 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 3/22/2009
Subject: Re: Need Athearn F-unit truck frame
Group: vintageHO Message: 9088 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/22/2009
Subject: Re: for the fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9089 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/22/2009
Subject: Re: Need Athearn F-unit truck frame
Group: vintageHO Message: 9090 From: Wobbly913 Date: 3/22/2009
Subject: Re: Need Athearn F-unit truck frame
Group: vintageHO Message: 9091 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 3/22/2009
Subject: Re: Need Athearn F-unit truck frame
Group: vintageHO Message: 9092 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/22/2009
Subject: Re: for the fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9093 From: Larry Date: 3/23/2009
Subject: Re: Need Athearn F-unit truck frame
Group: vintageHO Message: 9094 From: jim heckard Date: 3/23/2009
Subject: more inspiration
Group: vintageHO Message: 9095 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/23/2009
Subject: Re: more inspiration
Group: vintageHO Message: 9096 From: Chris B Date: 3/23/2009
Subject: Re: more inspiration
Group: vintageHO Message: 9097 From: jim heckard Date: 3/23/2009
Subject: Winton Berkshire
Group: vintageHO Message: 9098 From: Roger Aultman Date: 3/23/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Berkshire
Group: vintageHO Message: 9099 From: Chris B Date: 3/23/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Berkshire
Group: vintageHO Message: 9100 From: jim heckard Date: 3/23/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Berkshire
Group: vintageHO Message: 9101 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/23/2009
Subject: Re: more inspiration
Group: vintageHO Message: 9102 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/23/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Berkshire
Group: vintageHO Message: 9103 From: jim heckard Date: 3/23/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Berkshire
Group: vintageHO Message: 9104 From: jim heckard Date: 3/23/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Berkshire
Group: vintageHO Message: 9105 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/23/2009
Subject: Locomotive Workshop
Group: vintageHO Message: 9106 From: Chris B Date: 3/23/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
Group: vintageHO Message: 9107 From: jim heckard Date: 3/23/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
Group: vintageHO Message: 9108 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/23/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
Group: vintageHO Message: 9109 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/23/2009
Subject: Bill Schopp's PRR E-44 Electric Locomotive Brass Kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 9110 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/23/2009
Subject: I Found a Walthers Cast Bronze High Hood Switcher!
Group: vintageHO Message: 9111 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
Group: vintageHO Message: 9112 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
Group: vintageHO Message: 9113 From: Chris B Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
Group: vintageHO Message: 9114 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
Group: vintageHO Message: 9115 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: Need Athearn F-unit truck frame
Group: vintageHO Message: 9116 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
Group: vintageHO Message: 9117 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Berkshire
Group: vintageHO Message: 9118 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: I Found a Walthers Cast Bronze High Hood Switcher!
Group: vintageHO Message: 9119 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Etching
Group: vintageHO Message: 9120 From: jim heckard Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: I Found a Walthers Cast Bronze High Hood Switcher!
Group: vintageHO Message: 9121 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
Group: vintageHO Message: 9122 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties PRR Boxcabs
Group: vintageHO Message: 9123 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Another One - Just for the fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9124 From: jim heckard Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties PRR Boxcabs
Group: vintageHO Message: 9125 From: jim heckard Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties PRR Boxcabs
Group: vintageHO Message: 9126 From: Riverboy Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: In Need Of Lindberg Part
Group: vintageHO Message: 9127 From: Chris B Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 9128 From: Roger Aultman Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Berkshire
Group: vintageHO Message: 9129 From: louis niederlander Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Connectio
Group: vintageHO Message: 9130 From: John Hagen Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 9131 From: keith gutshall Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 9132 From: curmudgeon Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 9133 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: Production of Trackside Specialties Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 9134 From: John Hagen Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 9135 From: curmudgeon Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 9136 From: John Hagen Date: 3/24/2009
Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 9137 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 9138 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 9139 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: International O1c
Group: vintageHO Message: 9140 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
Group: vintageHO Message: 9141 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 9142 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 9143 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: New Vids
Group: vintageHO Message: 9144 From: jim heckard Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: International O-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 9145 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: International O1c
Group: vintageHO Message: 9146 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: International O-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 9147 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
Group: vintageHO Message: 9148 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 9149 From: curmudgeon Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 9150 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: Another One - Just for the fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9151 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 9152 From: jim heckard Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: clarify IMP type drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 9153 From: curmudgeon Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 9154 From: jim heckard Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: IMP P-5 Modified
Group: vintageHO Message: 9155 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: clarify IMP type drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 9156 From: jim heckard Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: clarify IMP type drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 9157 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: clarify IMP type drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 9158 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: IMP P-5 Modified
Group: vintageHO Message: 9159 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: Another One - Just for the fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9160 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: Another One - Just for the fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9161 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
Group: vintageHO Message: 9162 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: REA Baggage Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9163 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: Another One - Just for the fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9164 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: Another One - Just for the fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9165 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: 1st post; new; recalling Varney and wanting one again.....?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9166 From: jim heckard Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: IMP P-5 Modified
Group: vintageHO Message: 9167 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
Group: vintageHO Message: 9168 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: 1st post; new; recalling Varney and wanting one again.....?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9169 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
Group: vintageHO Message: 9170 From: jim heckard Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: 1st post; new; recalling Varney and wanting one again.....?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9171 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
Group: vintageHO Message: 9172 From: louis niederlander Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
Group: vintageHO Message: 9173 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: Photos added to tottrain album
Group: vintageHO Message: 9174 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
Group: vintageHO Message: 9175 From: tadonahue Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Old Central Valley HO Models Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9176 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/25/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
Group: vintageHO Message: 9177 From: jim heckard Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Photos added to tottrain album
Group: vintageHO Message: 9178 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Photos added to tottrain album
Group: vintageHO Message: 9179 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Old Central Valley HO Models Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9180 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Photos added to tottrain album
Group: vintageHO Message: 9181 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Photos added to tottrain album
Group: vintageHO Message: 9182 From: jim heckard Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Athesrn / Lionel E-33
Group: vintageHO Message: 9183 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Old Central Valley HO Models Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9184 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Another One - Just for the fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9185 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: 1st post; new; recalling Varney and wanting one again.....?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9186 From: Wallace Tabor Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9187 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
Group: vintageHO Message: 9188 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Old Central Valley HO Models Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9189 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9190 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9191 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Old Central Valley HO Models Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9192 From: docles1 Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Mantua Reefer. Sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 9193 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Etching
Group: vintageHO Message: 9194 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: clarify IMP type drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 9195 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Etching
Group: vintageHO Message: 9196 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Etching
Group: vintageHO Message: 9197 From: Fair-In-Ra@webtv.net Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9198 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Etching
Group: vintageHO Message: 9199 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9200 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Old Central Valley HO Models Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9201 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: clarify IMP type drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 9202 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9203 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9204 From: Karl Peters Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Etching
Group: vintageHO Message: 9205 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Etching
Group: vintageHO Message: 9206 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Etching
Group: vintageHO Message: 9207 From: John Hagen Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Etching
Group: vintageHO Message: 9208 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: "Double-Etching"
Group: vintageHO Message: 9209 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Etching / Dean Miller
Group: vintageHO Message: 9210 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 3/26/2009
Subject: Re: Old Central Valley HO Models Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9211 From: Larry Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: While on the subject of Old car kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 9212 From: tadonahue Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: Re: While on the subject of Old car kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 9213 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: Re: REA Baggage Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9214 From: jim heckard Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: Re: While on the subject of Old car kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 9215 From: tadonahue Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: Re: While on the subject of Old car kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 9216 From: cnj999 Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9217 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9218 From: jay matz Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9219 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9220 From: Fair-In-Ra@webtv.net Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9221 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9222 From: nvrr49 Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9223 From: Fair-In-Ra@webtv.net Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: Re: While on the subject of Old car kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 9224 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9225 From: jay matz Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9226 From: nvrr49 Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9227 From: Karl Peters Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: Re: Etching
Group: vintageHO Message: 9228 From: cnj999 Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9229 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/27/2009
Subject: Re: Etching
Group: vintageHO Message: 9230 From: Karl Peters Date: 3/28/2009
Subject: Re: While on the subject of Old car kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 9231 From: jim heckard Date: 3/28/2009
Subject: Re: While on the subject of Old car kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 9232 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 3/28/2009
Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9233 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/28/2009
Subject: Re: While on the subject of Old car kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 9234 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/28/2009
Subject: Re: clarify IMP type drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 9235 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/28/2009
Subject: Re: clarify IMP type drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 9236 From: jim heckard Date: 3/28/2009
Subject: ballast
Group: vintageHO Message: 9237 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/28/2009
Subject: New Magazine
Group: vintageHO Message: 9238 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 3/28/2009
Subject: Re: ballast
Group: vintageHO Message: 9239 From: Jim Waterman Date: 3/28/2009
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
Group: vintageHO Message: 9240 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/28/2009
Subject: Re: While on the subject of Old car kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 9241 From: ho_in_hancock Date: 3/28/2009
Subject: Laconia reefer sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 9242 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/28/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia reefer sides - adhesive
Group: vintageHO Message: 9243 From: cnj999 Date: 3/29/2009
Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9244 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/29/2009
Subject: Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9245 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9246 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: E-unit on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9247 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9248 From: jim heckard Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: E-unit on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9249 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: E-unit on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9250 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9251 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9252 From: frank Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Photos added to tottrain album
Group: vintageHO Message: 9253 From: frank Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Photos added to toptrain album
Group: vintageHO Message: 9254 From: jim heckard Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Ebay Brass Engine Body
Group: vintageHO Message: 9255 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: [vintageHO] Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9256 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: [vintageHO] Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9257 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: [vintageHO] Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9258 From: jim heckard Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: T.S. O-1c plans
Group: vintageHO Message: 9259 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside/TLW C & O steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9260 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Oak Valley - Private Road of Gerard F. Engels
Group: vintageHO Message: 9261 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Oak Valley - Private Road of Gerard F. Engels
Group: vintageHO Message: 9262 From: jim heckard Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside/TLW C & O steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9263 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: ID'ing Private Roads
Group: vintageHO Message: 9264 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Ebay Brass Engine Body
Group: vintageHO Message: 9265 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9266 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Oak Valley - Private Road - Who's?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9267 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Oak Valley - Private Road - Who's?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9268 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: E-unit on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9270 From: Don Grant Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Sorry
Group: vintageHO Message: 9271 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: E-unit on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9272 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside/TLW C & O steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9273 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Sorry
Group: vintageHO Message: 9274 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9275 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Sorry
Group: vintageHO Message: 9276 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: E-unit on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9277 From: jim heckard Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside/TLW C & O steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9278 From: John Hagen Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Sorry
Group: vintageHO Message: 9279 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside/TLW C & O steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9280 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Sorry
Group: vintageHO Message: 9281 From: Riverboy Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Sorry
Group: vintageHO Message: 9282 From: John Hagen Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Sorry
Group: vintageHO Message: 9283 From: Richard White Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Sorry
Group: vintageHO Message: 9284 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Sorry
Group: vintageHO Message: 9285 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/30/2009
Subject: Re: Sorry
Group: vintageHO Message: 9286 From: Railroad Modeler Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Sorry
Group: vintageHO Message: 9287 From: Railroad Modeler Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Sorry
Group: vintageHO Message: 9288 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Coke Car (fuel) Kit or Scratchbuilt + Picard Hopper
Group: vintageHO Message: 9289 From: jim heckard Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Bathgate Passenger Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9290 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Bathgate Passenger and Freight Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9291 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Sorry
Group: vintageHO Message: 9292 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Sorry
Group: vintageHO Message: 9293 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Bathgate Passenger Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9294 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9295 From: jim heckard Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Megow and Van Hobbies Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9296 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9297 From: jim heckard Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: John English items
Group: vintageHO Message: 9298 From: jim heckard Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: must clarify
Group: vintageHO Message: 9299 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Megow and Van Hobbies Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9300 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: must clarify & John English Coaches
Group: vintageHO Message: 9301 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Bathgate Passenger Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9302 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) Kit or Scratchbuilt + Picard Hopper
Group: vintageHO Message: 9303 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Bathgate Passenger Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9304 From: jim heckard Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Megow and Van Hobbies Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9305 From: jim heckard Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Megow and Van Hobbies Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9306 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: John English items
Group: vintageHO Message: 9307 From: jim heckard Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Bathgate Passenger Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9308 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9309 From: jim heckard Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: must clarify & John English Coaches
Group: vintageHO Message: 9310 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9311 From: Karl Peters Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9312 From: jim heckard Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: must clarify & John English Coaches
Group: vintageHO Message: 9313 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Picard Kit Cars, "Something to write home about..."
Group: vintageHO Message: 9314 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9315 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9316 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Cast Metal Knapp, John English Passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9317 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Megow and Van Hobbies Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9318 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Picard Kit Cars, "Something to write home about..."
Group: vintageHO Message: 9319 From: curmudgeon Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Cast Metal Knapp, John English Passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9320 From: curmudgeon Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Cast Metal Knapp, John English Passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9321 From: jim heckard Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Cast Metal Knapp, John English Passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9322 From: jim heckard Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Cast Metal Knapp, John English Passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9323 From: erieberk Date: 3/31/2009
Subject: Re: Picard Kit Cars, "Something to write home about..."
Group: vintageHO Message: 9324 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/1/2009
Subject: Re: Picard Kit Cars, "Something to write home about..."
Group: vintageHO Message: 9325 From: jim heckard Date: 4/1/2009
Subject: any takers
Group: vintageHO Message: 9326 From: Denny Anspach Date: 4/1/2009
Subject: Re: Bathgate Passenger Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9327 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 4/1/2009
Subject: Re: any takers
Group: vintageHO Message: 9328 From: jim heckard Date: 4/1/2009
Subject: Re: Bathgate Passenger Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9329 From: jim heckard Date: 4/1/2009
Subject: Re: any takers
Group: vintageHO Message: 9330 From: Bill Fornshell Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [vintageHO] Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 9331 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 9332 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 9333 From: erieberk Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Picard Kit Cars, "Something to write home about..."
Group: vintageHO Message: 9334 From: jim heckard Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: a true story
Group: vintageHO Message: 9335 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9336 From: jerrygart5 Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9337 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question-Jerry, and?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9338 From: Gary Woodard Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9339 From: toytrain13 Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9340 From: erieberk Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9341 From: Rick Jones Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9342 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9343 From: Charles Windes Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: a true story
Group: vintageHO Message: 9344 From: jim heckard Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9345 From: John Hagen Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Mantua Big Six
Group: vintageHO Message: 9346 From: erieberk Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: A-C Model Company -- L-W Model Company
Group: vintageHO Message: 9347 From: erieberk Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9348 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question-JimH,et.al.
Group: vintageHO Message: 9349 From: Bill Fornshell Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 9350 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9351 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9352 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question-JimH-photo...
Group: vintageHO Message: 9353 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Layout ballast
Group: vintageHO Message: 9354 From: jim heckard Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question-JimH-photo...
Group: vintageHO Message: 9355 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9356 From: jim heckard Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Layout ballast
Group: vintageHO Message: 9357 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: A-C Model Company -- L-W Model Company
Group: vintageHO Message: 9358 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 9359 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Picard Kit Cars, "Something to write home about..."
Group: vintageHO Message: 9360 From: jim heckard Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: apology
Group: vintageHO Message: 9361 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: apology
Group: vintageHO Message: 9362 From: jerrygart5 Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question-Jerry, and?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9363 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 4/2/2009
Subject: Re: apology
Group: vintageHO Message: 9364 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: apology
Group: vintageHO Message: 9365 From: erieberk Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: A-C Model Company -- L-W Model Company
Group: vintageHO Message: 9366 From: erieberk Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: Picard Kit Cars, "Something to write home about..."
Group: vintageHO Message: 9367 From: erieberk Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9368 From: Fair-In-Ra@webtv.net Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: A-C Model Company -- L-W Model Company
Group: vintageHO Message: 9369 From: Fair-In-Ra@webtv.net Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9370 From: jim heckard Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9371 From: Dst8596587@aol.com Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9372 From: jim heckard Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9373 From: erieberk Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9374 From: erieberk Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: A-C Model Company -- L-W Model Company
Group: vintageHO Message: 9375 From: erieberk Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9376 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: A-C Model Company - Paint & Seperate Parts Line
Group: vintageHO Message: 9377 From: Fair-In-Ra@webtv.net Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9378 From: Fair-In-Ra@webtv.net Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: A-C Model Company -- L-W Model Company
Group: vintageHO Message: 9379 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9380 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
Group: vintageHO Message: 9381 From: Fair-In-Ra@webtv.net Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9382 From: Fair-In-Ra@webtv.net Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9383 From: Charles Windes Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: apology
Group: vintageHO Message: 9384 From: erieberk Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9385 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9386 From: Bill Fornshell Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9387 From: erieberk Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: A-C Model Company - Paint & Seperate Parts Line
Group: vintageHO Message: 9388 From: erieberk Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9389 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: First and Second Run Varney Casey Jones
Group: vintageHO Message: 9390 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: IMPORTANT!!!!! MESSAGE TO ALL MEMBERS (was Re: [vintageHO] apology
Group: vintageHO Message: 9391 From: Larry Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Some Vintage Film from Disney
Group: vintageHO Message: 9392 From: John Hagen Date: 4/3/2009
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT!!!!! MESSAGE TO ALL MEMBERS (was Re: [vintageHO] apo
Group: vintageHO Message: 9393 From: John Hagen Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: Some Vintage Film from Disney
Group: vintageHO Message: 9394 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT!!!!! MESSAGE TO ALL MEMBERS (was Re: [vintageHO] apo
Group: vintageHO Message: 9395 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: International/IMP PRR O1 model phases
Group: vintageHO Message: 9396 From: jim heckard Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT!!!!! MESSAGE TO ALL MEMBERS (was Re: [vintageHO] apo
Group: vintageHO Message: 9397 From: Richard Moessner Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 9398 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Attached photo test
Group: vintageHO Message: 9399 From: Mike Sloane Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: Attached photo test
Group: vintageHO Message: 9400 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels
Group: vintageHO Message: 9401 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: Attached photo test
Group: vintageHO Message: 9402 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: Some Vintage Film from Disney
Group: vintageHO Message: 9403 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: Attached photo test Comment
Group: vintageHO Message: 9404 From: jim heckard Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: attached photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 9405 From: Gary Woodard Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: attached photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 9406 From: oljoeoh Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: Attached photo test Comment
Group: vintageHO Message: 9407 From: jim heckard Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: International/IMP PRR O1 model phases
Group: vintageHO Message: 9408 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 9409 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: Attached photo test
Group: vintageHO Message: 9410 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT!!!!! MESSAGE TO ALL MEMBERS (was Re: [vintageHO] apo
Group: vintageHO Message: 9411 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: Attached photo test Comment
Group: vintageHO Message: 9412 From: Bill Fornshell Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 9413 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 9414 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 9415 From: jim heckard Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Penn Line photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 9416 From: Charles Windes Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT!!!!! MESSAGE TO ALL MEMBERS (was Re: [vintageHO] apolo
Group: vintageHO Message: 9417 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 9418 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: Attached photo test Comment
Group: vintageHO Message: 9419 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 9420 From: jim heckard Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: More Penn Line seam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9421 From: jim heckard Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Penn Line GG-1's
Group: vintageHO Message: 9422 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: Attached photo test Comment
Group: vintageHO Message: 9423 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: Attached photo test Comment
Group: vintageHO Message: 9424 From: Nelson Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: attached photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 9425 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Jim H and Others on Varney Casey Jones
Group: vintageHO Message: 9426 From: jim heckard Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: Jim H and Others on Varney Casey Jones
Group: vintageHO Message: 9427 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/4/2009
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 9428 From: jim heckard Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Penn Line GP-7/9 & F-7
Group: vintageHO Message: 9429 From: jim heckard Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: more Penn Line
Group: vintageHO Message: 9430 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line GP-7/9 & F-7
Group: vintageHO Message: 9431 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: More Penn Line steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9432 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line GG-1's
Group: vintageHO Message: 9433 From: william witte Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: more Penn Line
Group: vintageHO Message: 9434 From: jim heckard Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Penn Line Heavyweight Passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9435 From: jim heckard Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Rest of PL Heavyweighs
Group: vintageHO Message: 9436 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line GN GG-1's + Aerican Beauty GN Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9437 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: International/IMP PRR O1 model phases
Group: vintageHO Message: 9438 From: Chris B Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9439 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9440 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line GP-7/9 & F-7
Group: vintageHO Message: 9441 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: Obscure HO items : HO Tools
Group: vintageHO Message: 9442 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Heavyweight Passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9443 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line GG-1's
Group: vintageHO Message: 9444 From: jim heckard Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Penn Line Streamlined Passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9445 From: Bill Fornshell Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line GG-1 - A Card Stock Model to build for Free
Group: vintageHO Message: 9446 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line GG-1's
Group: vintageHO Message: 9447 From: jim heckard Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Last of PL streamlined
Group: vintageHO Message: 9448 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: Obscure HO items : HO Tools
Group: vintageHO Message: 9449 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Last of PL streamlined
Group: vintageHO Message: 9450 From: John Hagen Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9451 From: Chris B Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9452 From: jim heckard Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9453 From: John Hagen Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9454 From: jim heckard Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9455 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9456 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9457 From: John Hagen Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9458 From: Chris B Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9459 From: Chris B Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9460 From: jim heckard Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9461 From: jim heckard Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9462 From: jim heckard Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9463 From: Riverboy Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9464 From: jim heckard Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9465 From: Chris B Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9466 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9467 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9468 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9469 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Heavyweight Passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9470 From: jim heckard Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9471 From: DiDi Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Streamlined Passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9472 From: jim heckard Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9473 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: Obscure HO items : HO Tools
Group: vintageHO Message: 9474 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: Last of PL streamlined
Group: vintageHO Message: 9475 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: Obscure HO items : HO Tools
Group: vintageHO Message: 9476 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Heavyweight Passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9477 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Heavyweight Passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 9478 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9479 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/5/2009
Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9480 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9481 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: what is it - cast GG-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 9482 From: oljoeoh Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: more Penn Line
Group: vintageHO Message: 9483 From: jim heckard Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: what is it - cast GG-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 9484 From: jim heckard Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9485 From: erieberk Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9486 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9487 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9488 From: erieberk Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9489 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: items on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9490 From: erieberk Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9491 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9492 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9493 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9494 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9495 From: Mike Sloane Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Vintage HO website.
Group: vintageHO Message: 9496 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9497 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9498 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9499 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9500 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage HO website.
Group: vintageHO Message: 9501 From: jim heckard Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
Group: vintageHO Message: 9502 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage HO website.
Group: vintageHO Message: 9503 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9504 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: George Stock Album
Group: vintageHO Message: 9505 From: jim heckard Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9506 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
Group: vintageHO Message: 9507 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: George Stock Album
Group: vintageHO Message: 9508 From: jim heckard Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9509 From: jim heckard Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9510 From: jim heckard Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: PL Southern Pacific picture
Group: vintageHO Message: 9511 From: jim heckard Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
Group: vintageHO Message: 9512 From: jim heckard Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9513 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage HO website.
Group: vintageHO Message: 9514 From: Chris B Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
Group: vintageHO Message: 9515 From: erieberk Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9516 From: erieberk Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9517 From: erieberk Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
Group: vintageHO Message: 9518 From: erieberk Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9519 From: erieberk Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9520 From: erieberk Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9521 From: jim heckard Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9522 From: jim heckard Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9523 From: jim heckard Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9524 From: jim heckard Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
Group: vintageHO Message: 9525 From: Bill Fornshell Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
Group: vintageHO Message: 9526 From: jim heckard Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9527 From: jim heckard Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
Group: vintageHO Message: 9528 From: Bill Fornshell Date: 4/6/2009
Subject: Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
Group: vintageHO Message: 9529 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 4/7/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage HO website.
Group: vintageHO Message: 9530 From: Chris B Date: 4/7/2009
Subject: Re: what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9531 From: jim heckard Date: 4/7/2009
Subject: Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
Group: vintageHO Message: 9532 From: jim heckard Date: 4/7/2009
Subject: Re: what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9533 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/7/2009
Subject: Re: what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9534 From: jim heckard Date: 4/7/2009
Subject: keystone or not
Group: vintageHO Message: 9535 From: jim heckard Date: 4/7/2009
Subject: other Schrader GG-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 9536 From: erieberk Date: 4/7/2009
Subject: Re: what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9537 From: jim heckard Date: 4/7/2009
Subject: Re: what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 9538 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/7/2009
Subject: another loco at eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9539 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/7/2009
Subject: Castor Plastics / Lehigh Models Connection - The Oak Valley Saga Con
Group: vintageHO Message: 9540 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/7/2009
Subject: Re: another loco at eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9541 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/7/2009
Subject: Re: another loco at eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9542 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/7/2009
Subject: Re: another loco at eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9543 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/7/2009
Subject: Re: another loco at eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9544 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 4/7/2009
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics / Lehigh Models Connection - The Oak Valley S...
Group: vintageHO Message: 9545 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/7/2009
Subject: Castor B-1 bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 9546 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/7/2009
Subject: Re: another loco at eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9547 From: jim heckard Date: 4/8/2009
Subject: arney 4-8-4
Group: vintageHO Message: 9548 From: jim heckard Date: 4/8/2009
Subject: Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 9549 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/8/2009
Subject: Re: Castor B-1 bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 9550 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/8/2009
Subject: Re: another loco at eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9551 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/8/2009
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics / Lehigh Models Connection - The Oak Valley S...
Group: vintageHO Message: 9552 From: erieberk Date: 4/8/2009
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics / Lehigh Models Connection - The Oak Valley S...
Group: vintageHO Message: 9553 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/8/2009
Subject: Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!
Group: vintageHO Message: 9554 From: Al Date: 4/8/2009
Subject: Hobbyline
Group: vintageHO Message: 9555 From: erieberk Date: 4/8/2009
Subject: Re: another loco at eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9556 From: erieberk Date: 4/8/2009
Subject: Re: Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!
Group: vintageHO Message: 9557 From: jim heckard Date: 4/8/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbyline
Group: vintageHO Message: 9558 From: jim heckard Date: 4/8/2009
Subject: Re: Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!
Group: vintageHO Message: 9559 From: jim heckard Date: 4/8/2009
Subject: V-2 Motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 9560 From: jim heckard Date: 4/8/2009
Subject: V-3 motor paper
Group: vintageHO Message: 9561 From: Roger Aultman Date: 4/8/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbyline
Group: vintageHO Message: 9562 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/8/2009
Subject: Re: V-3 motor paper
Group: vintageHO Message: 9563 From: jim heckard Date: 4/8/2009
Subject: Re: V-3 motor paper
Group: vintageHO Message: 9564 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: Castor Plastics / Lehigh Models Connection - The Oak Vall...
Group: vintageHO Message: 9565 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: Castor B-1 bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 9566 From: jim heckard Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: John English Metal
Group: vintageHO Message: 9567 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: Castor B-1 bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 9568 From: jim heckard Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: Castor B-1 bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 9569 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9570 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: John English Metal
Group: vintageHO Message: 9571 From: Denny Anspach Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!
Group: vintageHO Message: 9572 From: Wobbly913 Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!
Group: vintageHO Message: 9573 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!
Group: vintageHO Message: 9574 From: jim heckard Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9575 From: jim heckard Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: more John English metal
Group: vintageHO Message: 9576 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!
Group: vintageHO Message: 9577 From: oljoeoh Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9578 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9579 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9580 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Penn Line Whitcomb, Varney Docksider: PFM, Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 9581 From: trainliker Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9582 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9583 From: jim heckard Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9584 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9585 From: jim heckard Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb, Varney Docksider: PFM, Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 9586 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: Docksiders : Varney, PFM, Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 9587 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: Re: John English Metal
Group: vintageHO Message: 9588 From: jim heckard Date: 4/9/2009
Subject: John English metal steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 9589 From: Karl Peters Date: 4/10/2009
Subject: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9590 From: jim heckard Date: 4/10/2009
Subject: Last of John English Metal
Group: vintageHO Message: 9591 From: Denny Anspach Date: 4/10/2009
Subject: Remagnetizing: Was- Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up
Group: vintageHO Message: 9592 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/10/2009
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing: Was- Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gauldin
Group: vintageHO Message: 9593 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/10/2009
Subject: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9594 From: trainliker Date: 4/10/2009
Subject: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9595 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/10/2009
Subject: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9596 From: jim heckard Date: 4/10/2009
Subject: Lindsay "Stubby"
Group: vintageHO Message: 9597 From: Rick Jones Date: 4/10/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9598 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/10/2009
Subject: Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
Group: vintageHO Message: 9599 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/10/2009
Subject: Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
Group: vintageHO Message: 9600 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 9601 From: Karl Peters Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Remagnetizing: Was- Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up
Group: vintageHO Message: 9602 From: jim heckard Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
Group: vintageHO Message: 9603 From: jim heckard Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: GP-9 Drive (Lionel)
Group: vintageHO Message: 9604 From: jim heckard Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
Group: vintageHO Message: 9605 From: jim heckard Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6 [7 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9606 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 9607 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9608 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
Group: vintageHO Message: 9609 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9610 From: Ray Hobin Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Remagnetizing:
Group: vintageHO Message: 9611 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9612 From: jim heckard Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
Group: vintageHO Message: 9613 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9614 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Docksiders : Varney, PFM, Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 9615 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: John English Metal
Group: vintageHO Message: 9616 From: Rick Jones Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9617 From: erieberk Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
Group: vintageHO Message: 9618 From: jim heckard Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6 [7 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9619 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
Group: vintageHO Message: 9620 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9621 From: jim heckard Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: mix up
Group: vintageHO Message: 9622 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Castor review
Group: vintageHO Message: 9623 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: PFM Whitcomb ad
Group: vintageHO Message: 9624 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9625 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9626 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 9627 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 9628 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9629 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 9630 From: Karl Peters Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: PFM Whitcomb ad
Group: vintageHO Message: 9631 From: Chris B Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 9632 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 9633 From: Rick Jones Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9634 From: jim heckard Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9635 From: jim heckard Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 9636 From: jim heckard Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9637 From: erieberk Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Attached photo test
Group: vintageHO Message: 9638 From: jim heckard Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 9639 From: jim heckard Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 9640 From: jim heckard Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 9641 From: Chris B Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 9642 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: PFM Whitcomb ad
Group: vintageHO Message: 9643 From: jim heckard Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 9644 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9645 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: mix up
Group: vintageHO Message: 9646 From: John Hagen Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9647 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/11/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9648 From: erieberk Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9649 From: oljoeoh Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: PFM Whitcomb ad
Group: vintageHO Message: 9650 From: jim heckard Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: errors and omissions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9651 From: jim heckard Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Barr Nixon FM Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 9652 From: jim heckard Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Don's engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 9653 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: PFM Whitcomb ad
Group: vintageHO Message: 9654 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: errors and omissions
Group: vintageHO Message: 9655 From: Rick Jones Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9656 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9657 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: Barr Nixon FM Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 9658 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9659 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9660 From: Rick Jones Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: PFM Whitcomb ad
Group: vintageHO Message: 9661 From: erieberk Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9662 From: Rick Jones Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9663 From: Rick Jones Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9664 From: jim heckard Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9665 From: jim heckard Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: PSM "Baby Trainmaster"
Group: vintageHO Message: 9666 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9667 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9668 From: jim heckard Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9669 From: Chris B Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9670 From: Rick Jones Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: PSM "Baby Trainmaster" [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9671 From: Ron Plyler Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Bowser steam loco kits.
Group: vintageHO Message: 9672 From: erieberk Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9673 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: PSM "Baby Trainmaster" and Maintenance
Group: vintageHO Message: 9674 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9675 From: Fred Stevens K2FRD Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9676 From: Gary Woodard Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9677 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9678 From: jerrygart5 Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9679 From: Gary Woodard Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9680 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9681 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9682 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9683 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9684 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9685 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9686 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: Closing of Bowser Steam, Docksider, Cary Diesel lines
Group: vintageHO Message: 9687 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9688 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/12/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9689 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 4/13/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9690 From: jim heckard Date: 4/13/2009
Subject: Athearn 4-6-2 early Pacifics
Group: vintageHO Message: 9691 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 4/13/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9692 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/13/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-2 early Pacifics
Group: vintageHO Message: 9693 From: jim heckard Date: 4/13/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-2 early Pacifics
Group: vintageHO Message: 9694 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 4/13/2009
Subject: Westwood CP Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9695 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/13/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9696 From: jim heckard Date: 4/13/2009
Subject: Aluminum E unit wood nose
Group: vintageHO Message: 9697 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/13/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9698 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 4/13/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9699 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/13/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9700 From: Charlie Date: 4/13/2009
Subject: Re: Closing of Bowser Steam, Docksider, Cary Diesel lines
Group: vintageHO Message: 9701 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/13/2009
Subject: Re: Tiger Valley 1st & 2nd Gen. White Metal Diesel Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 9702 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9703 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Tiger Valley 1st & 2nd Gen. White Metal Diesel Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 9705 From: Gary Woodard Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Closing of Bowser Steam, Docksider, Cary Diesel lines
Group: vintageHO Message: 9706 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9707 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9708 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9709 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9710 From: oljoeoh Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: PFM Whitcomb ad
Group: vintageHO Message: 9711 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9712 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9713 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9714 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9715 From: jim heckard Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics
Group: vintageHO Message: 9716 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: PFM Whitcomb ad
Group: vintageHO Message: 9717 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: PFM Whitcomb ad
Group: vintageHO Message: 9718 From: Wobbly913 Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9719 From: jim heckard Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: photo copies
Group: vintageHO Message: 9720 From: jim heckard Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: 2nd marketed early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9721 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: PFM Whitcomb ad
Group: vintageHO Message: 9722 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Browser problem .. was Re: Westwood CP Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9723 From: jim heckard Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Final early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9724 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: PFM Whitcomb ad
Group: vintageHO Message: 9725 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: PFM Whitcomb ad
Group: vintageHO Message: 9726 From: John Hagen Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Browser problem .. was Re: Westwood CP Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9727 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Browser problem .. was Re: Westwood CP Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9728 From: Wobbly913 Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Final early Athearn Pacific [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9729 From: Karl Peters Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9730 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Final early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9731 From: Gary Woodard Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9732 From: jim heckard Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Final early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9733 From: Wobbly913 Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Final early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9734 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Final early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9735 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Final early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9736 From: Rick Jones Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9737 From: Rick Jones Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9738 From: jim heckard Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
Group: vintageHO Message: 9739 From: Charles Windes Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Final early Athearn Pacific [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9740 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9741 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
Group: vintageHO Message: 9742 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Final early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9743 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9744 From: jim heckard Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics
Group: vintageHO Message: 9745 From: jim heckard Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
Group: vintageHO Message: 9746 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9747 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9748 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics
Group: vintageHO Message: 9749 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
Group: vintageHO Message: 9750 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 9751 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
Group: vintageHO Message: 9752 From: Chris B Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics
Group: vintageHO Message: 9753 From: Karl Peters Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 9754 From: jim heckard Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics
Group: vintageHO Message: 9755 From: ho6471trains Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Oldest reefers used in Southern CA.
Group: vintageHO Message: 9756 From: jim heckard Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9757 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9758 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
Group: vintageHO Message: 9759 From: jim heckard Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
Group: vintageHO Message: 9760 From: Chris B Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics
Group: vintageHO Message: 9761 From: jim heckard Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
Group: vintageHO Message: 9762 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
Group: vintageHO Message: 9763 From: Chris B Date: 4/14/2009
Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics
Group: vintageHO Message: 9764 From: jim heckard Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9765 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Re: early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9766 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Re: early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9767 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Re: early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9768 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Re: early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9769 From: jim heckard Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9770 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Re: early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9771 From: jim heckard Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Re: early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9772 From: wildwoodjct Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Fleischmann, Athearn Pacific, Mantua kits--1950s
Group: vintageHO Message: 9773 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann, Athearn Pacific, Mantua kits--1950s
Group: vintageHO Message: 9774 From: johnbarth@verizon.net Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann, Athearn Pacific, Mantua kits--1950s
Group: vintageHO Message: 9775 From: trainliker Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann, Athearn Pacific, Mantua kits--1950s
Group: vintageHO Message: 9776 From: Chris B Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Re: early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9777 From: jim heckard Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Re: early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9778 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9779 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann, Athearn Pacific, Mantua kits--1950s
Group: vintageHO Message: 9780 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 9781 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Re: Attached photo test
Group: vintageHO Message: 9782 From: jim heckard Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9783 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9784 From: jim heckard Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9785 From: jim heckard Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9786 From: oneto87 Date: 4/15/2009
Subject: Sell of H0 Scenrey Items (Trees, Figures, Vehicles)
Group: vintageHO Message: 9787 From: jim heckard Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: pop-ups
Group: vintageHO Message: 9788 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: pop-ups
Group: vintageHO Message: 9789 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Stock GG-1 Sale to Schrader - Date
Group: vintageHO Message: 9790 From: jim heckard Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: Stock GG-1 Sale to Schrader - Date
Group: vintageHO Message: 9791 From: Dst8596587@aol.com Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9792 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9793 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9794 From: John Hagen Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9795 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9796 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9797 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9798 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9799 From: John Hagen Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9800 From: Charles Windes Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: pop-ups
Group: vintageHO Message: 9801 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9802 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9803 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9804 From: jim heckard Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9805 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9806 From: John Hagen Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9807 From: John Hagen Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9808 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9809 From: John Hagen Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9810 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9811 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9812 From: John Hagen Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9813 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9814 From: Dst8596587@aol.com Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9815 From: Dst8596587@aol.com Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9816 From: jim heckard Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9817 From: jim heckard Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9818 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9819 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Mystery Trailing Truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 9820 From: nvrr49 Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Item number: 290309775329
Group: vintageHO Message: 9821 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9822 From: jim heckard Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9823 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 9824 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: pop-ups
Group: vintageHO Message: 9825 From: Russ Shiel Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9826 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/16/2009
Subject: Varney F-3's by John Gascoyne
Group: vintageHO Message: 9827 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/17/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery Trailing Truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 9828 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/17/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery Trailing Truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 9829 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/17/2009
Subject: Re: British Steam Engine makers? - Mystery Trailing Truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 9830 From: jim heckard Date: 4/17/2009
Subject: Varney Metal F-3 Drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 9831 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/17/2009
Subject: Re: British Steam Engine makers? - Mystery Trailing Truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 9832 From: raymarinaccio Date: 4/17/2009
Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9833 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/17/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Metal F-3 Drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 9834 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/17/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Metal F-3 Drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 9835 From: Charles Windes Date: 4/17/2009
Subject: Re: pop-ups
Group: vintageHO Message: 9836 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/17/2009
Subject: Re: PFM Whitcomb ad
Group: vintageHO Message: 9837 From: Karl Peters Date: 4/18/2009
Subject: Re: British Steam Engine makers? - Mystery Trailing Truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 9838 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/18/2009
Subject: Re: British Steam Engine makers? - Mystery Trailing Truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 9839 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 4/18/2009
Subject: Re: PFM Whitcomb ad
Group: vintageHO Message: 9840 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/18/2009
Subject: Re: Item number: 290309775329
Group: vintageHO Message: 9841 From: Ron Plyler Date: 4/18/2009
Subject: Re: Item number: 290309775329
Group: vintageHO Message: 9842 From: Ted Walton Date: 4/18/2009
Subject: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9843 From: Graeme Date: 4/18/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9844 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/18/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9845 From: jim heckard Date: 4/18/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9846 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/18/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9847 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/18/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9848 From: jim heckard Date: 4/18/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9849 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/18/2009
Subject: Photo Of George Stock GG-1 Kit in Box
Group: vintageHO Message: 9850 From: trainliker Date: 4/18/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9851 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/18/2009
Subject: MODERATOR MRESSAGE! (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Please edit your messag
Group: vintageHO Message: 9852 From: jim heckard Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: George Stock GG-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 9853 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: MODERATOR MRESSAGE! (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Please edit your messag
Group: vintageHO Message: 9854 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: Re: George Stock GG-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 9855 From: Joe Mitchell Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9856 From: Charles Windes Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9857 From: James Bartelt Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 9858 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9859 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 9860 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed [2 Attachments
Group: vintageHO Message: 9861 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed [2 Attachments
Group: vintageHO Message: 9862 From: James Bartelt Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 9863 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 9864 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed [2 Attachments
Group: vintageHO Message: 9865 From: jim heckard Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: Lindsay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9866 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9867 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 9868 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed [2 Attachments
Group: vintageHO Message: 9869 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9870 From: Chris B Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sought?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9871 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/19/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
Group: vintageHO Message: 9872 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
Group: vintageHO Message: 9873 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
Group: vintageHO Message: 9875 From: Chris B Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
Group: vintageHO Message: 9876 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
Group: vintageHO Message: 9877 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
Group: vintageHO Message: 9878 From: Chris B Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
Group: vintageHO Message: 9879 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
Group: vintageHO Message: 9880 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
Group: vintageHO Message: 9881 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
Group: vintageHO Message: 9882 From: Chris B Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
Group: vintageHO Message: 9883 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9884 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9885 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9886 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9887 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9888 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Did Red Ball "beat" Varney?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9889 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9890 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Re: Did Red Ball "beat" Varney?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9891 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/20/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9892 From: Gary Woodard Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: [FloridaOScalers] OSN editor Greg Heier dies
Group: vintageHO Message: 9893 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: [On30conspiracy] Re: Removing lettering
Group: vintageHO Message: 9894 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: Did Red Ball "beat" Varney?
Group: vintageHO Message: 9895 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: Lindsay
Group: vintageHO Message: 9896 From: morgantownrr Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9897 From: jim heckard Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Lindsay / Hobbytown PA Differences
Group: vintageHO Message: 9898 From: jim heckard Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Lindsay / Hobbytown PA Differences
Group: vintageHO Message: 9899 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Rivarossi Yellowstone 2-8-8-4
Group: vintageHO Message: 9900 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Yellowstone 2-8-8-4
Group: vintageHO Message: 9901 From: jim heckard Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Yellowstone 2-8-8-4
Group: vintageHO Message: 9902 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: Lindsay / Hobbytown PA Differences
Group: vintageHO Message: 9903 From: jim heckard Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Hobbytown Album Pictures
Group: vintageHO Message: 9904 From: jim heckard Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: Lindsay / Hobbytown PA Differences
Group: vintageHO Message: 9905 From: Ron Plyler Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Yellowstone 2-8-8-4
Group: vintageHO Message: 9906 From: Chris B Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: Lindsay / Hobbytown PA Differences
Group: vintageHO Message: 9907 From: jim heckard Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 9908 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 9909 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: Lindsay / Hobbytown PA Differences
Group: vintageHO Message: 9910 From: jim heckard Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Lindsay/Hobbytown PA differences.
Group: vintageHO Message: 9911 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 9912 From: jim heckard Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Hobbyline/Lindsay Bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 9913 From: jim heckard Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Boo Boo
Group: vintageHO Message: 9914 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbyline/Lindsay Bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 9915 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown/Lindsay PA Bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 9916 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: more early Athearn Pacific (properly edited, no less)
Group: vintageHO Message: 9917 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 9918 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbyline/Lindsay Bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 9919 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Yellowstone 2-8-8-4
Group: vintageHO Message: 9920 From: jim heckard Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 9921 From: jim heckard Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbyline/Lindsay Bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 9922 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 9923 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: Big Boy Revised into a 2-8-8-4
Group: vintageHO Message: 9924 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown/Lindsay PA Bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 9925 From: Nelson Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
Group: vintageHO Message: 9926 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 9927 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/21/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9928 From: Nelson Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Yellowstone 2-8-8-4
Group: vintageHO Message: 9929 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9930 From: jim heckard Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Hobbytown Contiued
Group: vintageHO Message: 9931 From: Riverboy Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown Contiued [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9932 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown Contiued [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9933 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 9934 From: Chris B Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown Contiued [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9935 From: Mike Sloane Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown Contiued [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9936 From: jim heckard Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 9937 From: jim heckard Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Hobbytown Continued II
Group: vintageHO Message: 9938 From: Chris B Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown Continued II
Group: vintageHO Message: 9939 From: Roger Aultman Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 9940 From: jim heckard Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown Continued II
Group: vintageHO Message: 9941 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 9942 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 9943 From: Nelson Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9944 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 9945 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Plasti
Group: vintageHO Message: 9946 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Pl
Group: vintageHO Message: 9947 From: Chris B Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown Continued II
Group: vintageHO Message: 9948 From: Chris B Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Pl
Group: vintageHO Message: 9949 From: jim heckard Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Hobbytown vs Globe/Athearnn F-7 Drive
Group: vintageHO Message: 9950 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 9951 From: Gary Woodard Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown vs Globe/Athearnn F-7 Drive [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9952 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown vs Globe/Athearnn F-7 Drive [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9953 From: jim heckard Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: My PC Steam Scheme
Group: vintageHO Message: 9954 From: jim heckard Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown vs Globe/Athearnn F-7 Drive
Group: vintageHO Message: 9955 From: jim heckard Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Same page ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 9956 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Same page ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 9957 From: Denny Anspach Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Plasti
Group: vintageHO Message: 9958 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Pl
Group: vintageHO Message: 9959 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown vs Globe/Athearnn F-7 Drive
Group: vintageHO Message: 9960 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Plasti
Group: vintageHO Message: 9961 From: Gary Woodard Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Same page ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 9962 From: Chris B Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Same page ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 9963 From: Gary Woodard Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Same page ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 9964 From: jim heckard Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: New or more info WELCOME
Group: vintageHO Message: 9965 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 9966 From: Chris B Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Same page ??? [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9967 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Same page ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 9968 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/22/2009
Subject: Re: Same page ??? [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9969 From: Chris B Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: Same page ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 9970 From: Chris B Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown vs Globe/Athearnn F-7 Drive [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9971 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 9972 From: jim heckard Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: HObbyline
Group: vintageHO Message: 9973 From: Denny Anspach Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Pl
Group: vintageHO Message: 9974 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: Same page ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 9975 From: Chris B Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: Same page ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 9976 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9977 From: jim heckard Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: HObbyline plastic FA ALCO's
Group: vintageHO Message: 9978 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: HObbyline plastic ALCo FAs
Group: vintageHO Message: 9979 From: Roger Aultman Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: HObbyline plastic FA ALCO's [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9980 From: Roger Aultman Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Forgot attachment
Group: vintageHO Message: 9981 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: Same page ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 9982 From: jim heckard Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: Forgot attachment [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9983 From: jim heckard Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: Forgot attachment [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 9984 From: Karl Peters Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Plasti
Group: vintageHO Message: 9985 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 9986 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: HObbyline plastic ALCo FAs
Group: vintageHO Message: 9987 From: Dst8596587@aol.com Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 060 photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 9988 From: jim heckard Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: HObbyline plastic FM H-10-44
Group: vintageHO Message: 9989 From: Walter J. Bayer II Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
Group: vintageHO Message: 9990 From: jim heckard Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 060 photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 9991 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
Group: vintageHO Message: 9992 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 9993 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 9994 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
Group: vintageHO Message: 9995 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 060 photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 9996 From: Roger Aultman Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
Group: vintageHO Message: 9997 From: Roger Aultman Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
Group: vintageHO Message: 9998 From: Roger Aultman Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
Group: vintageHO Message: 9999 From: csx333 Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Olympic Cascadian Kits Ever Available?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10000 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
Group: vintageHO Message: 10001 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10002 From: Wobbly913 Date: 4/23/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10003 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Olympic Cascadian Kits Ever Available?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10004 From: jim heckard Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: HObbyline Plastic Passenger
Group: vintageHO Message: 10005 From: jim heckard Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
Group: vintageHO Message: 10006 From: jim heckard Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 060 photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 10007 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: HObbyline Plastic Passenger [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10008 From: jim heckard Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
Group: vintageHO Message: 10009 From: jim heckard Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: HObbyline Plastic Passenger
Group: vintageHO Message: 10010 From: Rick Jones Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Olympic Cascadian Kits Ever Available?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10011 From: Dst8596587@aol.com Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 060 photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 10012 From: oljoeoh Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: about those new little pics....
Group: vintageHO Message: 10013 From: Walter J. Bayer II Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
Group: vintageHO Message: 10014 From: Roger Aultman Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
Group: vintageHO Message: 10015 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: John English - Penn Line Connections
Group: vintageHO Message: 10016 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: HObbyline Plastic Passenger
Group: vintageHO Message: 10017 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: HObbyline Plastic Passenger
Group: vintageHO Message: 10018 From: Roger Aultman Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Colors fading
Group: vintageHO Message: 10019 From: Roger Aultman Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
Group: vintageHO Message: 10020 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10021 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars (was HObbyline Plastic Passenger)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10022 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Colors fading
Group: vintageHO Message: 10023 From: Rick Jones Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Colors fading
Group: vintageHO Message: 10024 From: Wobbly913 Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10025 From: jim heckard Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: John English - Penn Line Connections
Group: vintageHO Message: 10026 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: about those new little pics....
Group: vintageHO Message: 10027 From: jim heckard Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars (was HObbyline Plastic Passenger)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10028 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: George Stock Album
Group: vintageHO Message: 10029 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 10030 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: about those new little pics....
Group: vintageHO Message: 10031 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 10032 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Colors fading
Group: vintageHO Message: 10033 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars (was HObbyline Plastic Passenger)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10034 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 10035 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: "Diesel Cab" Electrics
Group: vintageHO Message: 10036 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: George Stock Album
Group: vintageHO Message: 10037 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 10038 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10039 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
Group: vintageHO Message: 10040 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
Group: vintageHO Message: 10041 From: Roger Aultman Date: 4/24/2009
Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
Group: vintageHO Message: 10042 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/25/2009
Subject: Re: John English - Penn Line Connections
Group: vintageHO Message: 10043 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/25/2009
Subject: Re: John English - Penn Line Connections
Group: vintageHO Message: 10044 From: oljoeoh Date: 4/25/2009
Subject: Re: about those new little pics....
Group: vintageHO Message: 10045 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/25/2009
Subject: Re: about those new little pics....
Group: vintageHO Message: 10046 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/25/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery EMD FT's - Sand Cast Bronze/Brass - Via Theo. Parker?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10047 From: jim heckard Date: 4/25/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery EMD FT's - Sand Cast Bronze/Brass - Via Theo. Parker?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10048 From: oljoeoh Date: 4/25/2009
Subject: Re: about those new little pics....
Group: vintageHO Message: 10049 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/25/2009
Subject: Re: about those new little pics....
Group: vintageHO Message: 10050 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/25/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery EMD FT's - Sand Cast Bronze/Brass - Via Theo. Parker?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10051 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/25/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery EMD FT's - Sand Cast Bronze/Brass - Via Theo. Parker?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10052 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 4/25/2009
Subject: Varney Casey Jones, 1st vs 2nd run: headlight change?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10053 From: jim heckard Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: "unknown" FT's
Group: vintageHO Message: 10054 From: jim heckard Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones, 1st vs 2nd run: headlight change?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10055 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones, 1st vs 2nd run: headlight change?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10056 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Some Good News - Bowser Steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 10057 From: jim heckard Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Headlight Varney 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 10058 From: erieberk Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery EMD FT's - Sand Cast Bronze/Brass - Via Theo. Parker?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10059 From: erieberk Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10060 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: Headlight Varney 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 10061 From: solly_46 Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: A dealer with some old HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 10062 From: erieberk Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: Headlight Varney 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 10063 From: jim heckard Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: Headlight Varney 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 10064 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: Headlight Varney 4-6-0-Jim, et.al.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10065 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: unknown boxcar roof
Group: vintageHO Message: 10066 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: unknown boxcar roof [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10067 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: unknown boxcar roof
Group: vintageHO Message: 10068 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: Headlight Varney 4-6-0-Jim, et.al.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10069 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: unknown boxcar roof
Group: vintageHO Message: 10070 From: erieberk Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: unknown boxcar roof
Group: vintageHO Message: 10071 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: "unknown" FT's
Group: vintageHO Message: 10072 From: jim heckard Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Varney 4-6-0 Headlight
Group: vintageHO Message: 10073 From: nathan.stackhouse Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: Headlight Varney 4-6-0-Jim, et.al.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10074 From: jim heckard Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: "unknown" FT's
Group: vintageHO Message: 10075 From: solly_46 Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Wanted athearn f7a gear for truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 10076 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: "unknown" FT's
Group: vintageHO Message: 10077 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: "unknown" FT's
Group: vintageHO Message: 10078 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: unknown boxcar roof
Group: vintageHO Message: 10079 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10080 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: "unknown" FT's
Group: vintageHO Message: 10081 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/26/2009
Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10082 From: jim heckard Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: T. O. T.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10083 From: jim heckard Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10084 From: trainliker Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10085 From: trainliker Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10086 From: jim heckard Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10087 From: jim heckard Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10088 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Wanted athearn f7a gear for truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 10089 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T. [7 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10090 From: solly_46 Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Wanted athearn f7a gear for truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 10091 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Varney Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10092 From: jim heckard Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Important to remember
Group: vintageHO Message: 10093 From: trainliker Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T. [7 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10094 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
Group: vintageHO Message: 10095 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T. [7 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10096 From: Chris B Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Varney Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10097 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Wanted athearn f7a gear for truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 10098 From: Charles Windes Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Important to remember
Group: vintageHO Message: 10099 From: jerrygart5 Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
Group: vintageHO Message: 10100 From: John Hagen Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: "Ping" Don Dellman
Group: vintageHO Message: 10101 From: William C. Jensen-Frisk Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: GARCO $29.95 switcher in 1949 money converted to 2008 money = $270.3
Group: vintageHO Message: 10102 From: John Hagen Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Varney Areo Train
Group: vintageHO Message: 10103 From: John Hagen Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
Group: vintageHO Message: 10104 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: GARCO $29.95 switcher in 1949 money converted to 2008 money = $2
Group: vintageHO Message: 10105 From: erieberk Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: unknown boxcar roof
Group: vintageHO Message: 10106 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Important to remember
Group: vintageHO Message: 10107 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
Group: vintageHO Message: 10108 From: Rick Jones Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
Group: vintageHO Message: 10109 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown Aerotrain Dive?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10110 From: Nelson Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10111 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Areo Train
Group: vintageHO Message: 10112 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
Group: vintageHO Message: 10113 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
Group: vintageHO Message: 10114 From: jim heckard Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10115 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Gilbert Gon
Group: vintageHO Message: 10116 From: Charles Windes Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Areo Train
Group: vintageHO Message: 10117 From: Denny Anspach Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Hobbytown Aerotrain Drive?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10118 From: Chris B Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Gilbert Gon [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10119 From: nvrr49 Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Gilbert Gon [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10120 From: Riverboy Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Gilbert Gon [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10121 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Important to remember
Group: vintageHO Message: 10122 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Gilbert Gon
Group: vintageHO Message: 10123 From: trainliker Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Areo Train
Group: vintageHO Message: 10124 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon
Group: vintageHO Message: 10125 From: nvrr49 Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Gilbert Gon
Group: vintageHO Message: 10126 From: nvrr49 Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Zamac Rot
Group: vintageHO Message: 10127 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Yellowstone 2-8-8-4 PICS!
Group: vintageHO Message: 10128 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10129 From: Walter J. Bayer II Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10130 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Areo Train
Group: vintageHO Message: 10131 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Areo Train
Group: vintageHO Message: 10132 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Zamac Rot
Group: vintageHO Message: 10133 From: Rick Jones Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
Group: vintageHO Message: 10134 From: Nelson Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10135 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10136 From: Thomas Parsons Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: Re: Gilbert Gon
Group: vintageHO Message: 10137 From: Thomas Parsons Date: 4/27/2009
Subject: MR magazines 1976-1976
Group: vintageHO Message: 10138 From: Jim Waterman Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
Group: vintageHO Message: 10139 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
Group: vintageHO Message: 10140 From: jim heckard Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10141 From: erieberk Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones, 1st vs 2nd run: headlight change?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10142 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Yellowstone 2-8-8-4 PICS! [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10143 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Lione F-5 (was Varney Areo Train)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10144 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Yellowstone 2-8-8-4 PICS!
Group: vintageHO Message: 10145 From: erieberk Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10146 From: jim heckard Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Mantua TALGO train motor/drive
Group: vintageHO Message: 10147 From: nvrr49 Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Zamac Rot
Group: vintageHO Message: 10148 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Wanted athearn f7a gear for truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 10149 From: John Hagen Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua TALGO train motor/drive [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10150 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Bitter Creek
Group: vintageHO Message: 10151 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon
Group: vintageHO Message: 10152 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon
Group: vintageHO Message: 10153 From: jim heckard Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: American Beauty Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10154 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10155 From: Chris B Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Areo Train
Group: vintageHO Message: 10156 From: Chris B Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: more vintage HO on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 10157 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon
Group: vintageHO Message: 10158 From: Chris B Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: ++ more vintage HO on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 10159 From: trainliker Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Areo Train
Group: vintageHO Message: 10160 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10161 From: Charles Windes Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
Group: vintageHO Message: 10162 From: jim heckard Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10163 From: Roger Aultman Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10164 From: jim heckard Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: ++ more vintage HO on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 10165 From: jim heckard Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10166 From: Roger Aultman Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10167 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Lione F-5 (was Varney Areo Train)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10168 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Lionel F-5 (was Varney Aero Train)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10169 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars, Blue Line Competition
Group: vintageHO Message: 10170 From: John Hagen Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10171 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10172 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Looking for drive shafts
Group: vintageHO Message: 10173 From: nvrr49 Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon
Group: vintageHO Message: 10174 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10175 From: John Hagen Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10176 From: jim heckard Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10177 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10178 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Bitter Creek
Group: vintageHO Message: 10179 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Lione F-5 (was Varney Areo Train)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10180 From: David Helber Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Athearn 0-4-2 - Making it practical?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10181 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Greenberg's Guide Varney question, Ray, et.al.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10182 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2 - Making it practical?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10183 From: erieberk Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10184 From: Charles Windes Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Aerotrain [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10185 From: erieberk Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Greenberg's Guide Varney question, Ray, et.al.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10186 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars [7 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10187 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10188 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: more vintage HO on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 10189 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2 - Making it practical?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10190 From: erieberk Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10191 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide Varney question, Ray, et.al.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10192 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10193 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: more vintage HO on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 10194 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: was, HOSC&H-SIG, now Searching for Model ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10195 From: jim heckard Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Blue Line Passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10196 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10197 From: erieberk Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: The American Beauty Lines Listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 10198 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars [7 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10199 From: jim heckard Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Blue Line Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10200 From: erieberk Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10201 From: erieberk Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: O.T., was, Greenberg's Guide Varney question, Ray, et.al.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10202 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line Passenger cars [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10203 From: erieberk Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: The American Beauty Lines Listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 10204 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: O.T., was, Greenberg's Guide Varney question, Ray, et.al.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10205 From: erieberk Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: The American Beauty Lines Listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 10206 From: erieberk Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: O.T., was, Greenberg's Guide Varney question, Ray, et.al.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10207 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2 - Coupler Mount - Making it practical?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10208 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: O.T., was, Greenberg's Guide Varney question, Ray, et.al.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10209 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10210 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 4/28/2009
Subject: Re: OT: Camera, was Blue Line Passenger cars [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10211 From: erieberk Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line Passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10212 From: erieberk Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10213 From: erieberk Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10214 From: erieberk Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10215 From: Chris B Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10216 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10217 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10218 From: jim heckard Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: more American Beauty
Group: vintageHO Message: 10219 From: jim heckard Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10220 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10221 From: jim heckard Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line Passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10222 From: jim heckard Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10223 From: erieberk Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line Passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10224 From: Rick Jones Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10225 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line Passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10226 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10227 From: erieberk Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10228 From: Chris B Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10229 From: Chris B Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: FRISCO Hoper ID search ULRICH?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10230 From: Charles Windes Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10231 From: David Helber Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2 - Making it practical?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10232 From: solly_46 Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Wanted Athearn Black Widow Shell for F7A
Group: vintageHO Message: 10233 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2 - Making it practical?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10234 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Shops was: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10235 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10236 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: FRISCO Hoper ID search ULRICH? [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10237 From: jim heckard Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Blue Line "Shorties"
Group: vintageHO Message: 10238 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10239 From: Chris B Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: FRISCO Hoper ID search ULRICH?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10240 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2 - Making it practical?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10241 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Shops was: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10242 From: jim heckard Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10243 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: The American Beauty Lines Listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 10244 From: Wobbly913 Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10245 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10246 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10247 From: Wobbly913 Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10248 From: Rick Jones Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10249 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco / 12" radius turns
Group: vintageHO Message: 10250 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco / 12" radius turns
Group: vintageHO Message: 10251 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/29/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon
Group: vintageHO Message: 10252 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10253 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10254 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10255 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon
Group: vintageHO Message: 10256 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco / 12" radius turns
Group: vintageHO Message: 10257 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10258 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10259 From: jim heckard Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Chester Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10260 From: John Hagen Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: Chester Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10261 From: jim heckard Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Gone
Group: vintageHO Message: 10262 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: Chester Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10263 From: John Hagen Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Help with parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 10264 From: Richard Moessner Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10265 From: Bill Wright Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Red Ball Poultry car
Group: vintageHO Message: 10266 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 10267 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 10268 From: John Hagen Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Added Files
Group: vintageHO Message: 10269 From: jim heckard Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: Help with parts [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10270 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: Help with parts [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10271 From: jim heckard Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: what adhesive best ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10272 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: what adhesive best ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10273 From: Chris B Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: what adhesive best ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10274 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: what adhesive best ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10275 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: what adhesive best ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10276 From: nvrr49 Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Poultry car
Group: vintageHO Message: 10277 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: what adhesive best ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10278 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10279 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: Samson obs (was Cast aluminum cars)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10280 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Poultry car
Group: vintageHO Message: 10281 From: Sean Naylor Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Poultry car
Group: vintageHO Message: 10282 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Poultry car
Group: vintageHO Message: 10283 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Need help with cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10284 From: curmudgeon Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: Need help with cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10285 From: Michael F. Looney Date: 4/30/2009
Subject: Re: what adhesive best ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10286 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Need help with cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10287 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Need help with cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10288 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10289 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Need help with cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10290 From: jim heckard Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: High-Ballers Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10291 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: what adhesive best ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10292 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Need help with cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10293 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Need help with cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10294 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Need help with cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10295 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10296 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Chester Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10297 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10298 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10299 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10300 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10301 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: High-Ballers Passenger Cars [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10302 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: High-Ballers Passenger Cars [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10303 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: High-Ballers Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10304 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line "Shorties" [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10305 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10306 From: Walter J. Bayer II Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10307 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10308 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10309 From: jim heckard Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line "Shorties" [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10310 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10311 From: Rich L Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: what adhesive best ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10312 From: jim heckard Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Varney Metal Shorty Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10313 From: Denny Anspach Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10314 From: jim heckard Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10315 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: The American Beauty Lines Listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 10316 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10317 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: The American Beauty Lines Listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 10318 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10319 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Shops was: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10320 From: Rick Jones Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10321 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: The American Beauty Lines Listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 10322 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10323 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: The American Beauty Lines Listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 10324 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10325 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Care of Extruded Magnesium Sampsons, & Sampson Railcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 10326 From: jim heckard Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: adhesives
Group: vintageHO Message: 10327 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10328 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10329 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10330 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10331 From: curmudgeon Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10332 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10333 From: curmudgeon Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10334 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10335 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10336 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10337 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10338 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10339 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10340 From: jim heckard Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10341 From: Nelson Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Shops was: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10342 From: Denny Anspach Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10343 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Chester Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10344 From: Nelson Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Chester Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10345 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Chester Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10346 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Chester Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10347 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Chester Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10348 From: Rick Jones Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10349 From: Russ Shiel Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10350 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: High-Ballers Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10351 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line "Shorties" [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10352 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10353 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10354 From: erieberk Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10355 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Copper (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Chester Passenger Cars)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10356 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10357 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: "Reporting Marks," available anywhere?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10358 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Mantua Pacific production/version question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10359 From: curmudgeon Date: 5/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Pacific production/version question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10360 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Political incorrectness WAS: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10361 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Pacific production/version question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10362 From: David Helber Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Can anybody ID this steamer?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10363 From: Mike Sloane Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Shops was: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10364 From: erieberk Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10365 From: oljoeoh Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10366 From: erieberk Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: "Reporting Marks," available anywhere?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10367 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10368 From: jim heckard Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10369 From: erieberk Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Political incorrectness WAS: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10370 From: jim heckard Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Copper (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Chester Passenger Cars)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10371 From: erieberk Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Shops was: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10372 From: jim heckard Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10373 From: erieberk Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Copper (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Chester Passenger Cars)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10374 From: erieberk Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10375 From: jim heckard Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Exacta Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10376 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10377 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Exacta Passenger Cars [8 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10378 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: NYS&W ACF's!!! !!!
Group: vintageHO Message: 10379 From: jim heckard Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10380 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Cast Conover 2-10-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 10381 From: Charles Windes Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10382 From: oljoeoh Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10383 From: Charles Windes Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Sorry HO Cartoon
Group: vintageHO Message: 10384 From: jim heckard Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Can anybody ID this steamer?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10385 From: solly_46 Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Wanted Athearn Black Widow Shell for F7A
Group: vintageHO Message: 10386 From: jim heckard Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Can anybody ID this steamer?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10387 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: The American Beauty Lines Listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 10388 From: Nelson Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua TALGO train motor/drive
Group: vintageHO Message: 10389 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Can anybody ID this steamer?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10390 From: jim heckard Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Sampson Passemger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10391 From: jim heckard Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Can anybody ID this steamer?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10392 From: curmudgeon Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10393 From: curmudgeon Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Can anybody ID this steamer?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10394 From: jim heckard Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10395 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
Group: vintageHO Message: 10396 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: More hobby shops - was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10397 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10398 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10399 From: Mike Bauers Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Sampson Motor Car Ends
Group: vintageHO Message: 10400 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10401 From: Mike Bauers Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Political incorrectness WAS: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10402 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Political incorrectness WAS: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10403 From: Mike Bauers Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Vintage ACF models
Group: vintageHO Message: 10404 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage ACF models
Group: vintageHO Message: 10405 From: erieberk Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10406 From: jim heckard Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10407 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Political incorrectness WAS: English Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10408 From: jim heckard Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10409 From: Mike Bauers Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage ACF models
Group: vintageHO Message: 10410 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/2/2009
Subject: Re: "Reporting Marks," available anywhere?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10411 From: jim heckard Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: A.M.T. (American Model Toys)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10412 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: Re: A.M.T. (American Model Toys) [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10413 From: jim heckard Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: AMT Part 2
Group: vintageHO Message: 10414 From: jim heckard Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: Re: A.M.T. (American Model Toys)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10415 From: erieberk Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: Re: A.M.T. (American Model Toys)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10416 From: erieberk Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: More hobby shops - was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10417 From: John Hagen Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: Re: AMT Part 2 [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10418 From: erieberk Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Motor Car Ends
Group: vintageHO Message: 10419 From: Graeme Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: Re: A.M.T. (American Model Toys) [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10420 From: jim heckard Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: Re: A.M.T. (American Model Toys)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10421 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10422 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: Re: Photo-Etching
Group: vintageHO Message: 10423 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: Re: A.M.T. (American Model Toys)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10424 From: John Hagen Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: Re: A.M.T. (American Model Toys)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10425 From: John Hagen Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: Varney Dockside on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 10426 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: Docksider - Ore Car - Caboose
Group: vintageHO Message: 10427 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: Re: Docksider - Ore Car - Caboose
Group: vintageHO Message: 10428 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: Re: A.M.T. (American Model Toys)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10429 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: Re: AMT Part 2
Group: vintageHO Message: 10430 From: erieberk Date: 5/3/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10431 From: jim heckard Date: 5/4/2009
Subject: No ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10432 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/4/2009
Subject: Partial ID Re: No ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10433 From: Steven Stoikes Date: 5/4/2009
Subject: AMT parts one/two
Group: vintageHO Message: 10434 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/4/2009
Subject: Partial ID Re: No ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10435 From: David Helber Date: 5/4/2009
Subject: Re: Can anybody ID this steamer?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10436 From: David Helber Date: 5/4/2009
Subject: Partial ID Re: No ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10437 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/4/2009
Subject: Partial ID Re: No ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10438 From: David Helber Date: 5/4/2009
Subject: Partial ID Re: No ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10439 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 5/4/2009
Subject: Re: Partial ID Fleischmann BR24 drive
Group: vintageHO Message: 10440 From: jim heckard Date: 5/4/2009
Subject: Re: Partial ID Re: No ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10441 From: jim heckard Date: 5/4/2009
Subject: Re: Partial ID Re: No ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10442 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/4/2009
Subject: Partial ID Re: No ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10443 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 5/4/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10444 From: Gary Woodard Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Some New Vids
Group: vintageHO Message: 10445 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Partial ID: Sakai Seisakusho Ltd. Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 10446 From: Chris B Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Some ebay vintage listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 10447 From: curmudgeon Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 10448 From: curmudgeon Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 10449 From: Chris B Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 10450 From: curmudgeon Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 10451 From: jim heckard Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 10452 From: Nelson Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Mystery Motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 10453 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery Motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 10454 From: curmudgeon Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 10455 From: jim heckard Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Re: AMT parts one/two
Group: vintageHO Message: 10456 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery Motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 10457 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 10458 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Re: AMT parts one/two
Group: vintageHO Message: 10459 From: John Hagen Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 10460 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Did Varney Little Joe
Group: vintageHO Message: 10461 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: test - no text
Group: vintageHO Message: 10462 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Did Varney 'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or valve gear?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10463 From: John Hagen Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Re: Did Varney 'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or valve gear
Group: vintageHO Message: 10464 From: John Hagen Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 10465 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/5/2009
Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings - J. Hagen >
Group: vintageHO Message: 10466 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/6/2009
Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 10467 From: John Hagen Date: 5/6/2009
Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 10468 From: Dst8596587@aol.com Date: 5/6/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery Motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 10469 From: Nelson Date: 5/6/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery Motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 10470 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 5/6/2009
Subject: Re: Did Varney 'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or valve gear
Group: vintageHO Message: 10471 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/6/2009
Subject: Re: Did Varney 'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or valve gear
Group: vintageHO Message: 10472 From: Charlie Date: 5/6/2009
Subject: Re: Some New Vids
Group: vintageHO Message: 10473 From: Mike Bauers Date: 5/6/2009
Subject: Re: Did Varney 'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or valve gear
Group: vintageHO Message: 10474 From: Gary Woodard Date: 5/6/2009
Subject: Re: Some New Vids
Group: vintageHO Message: 10475 From: oljoeoh Date: 5/7/2009
Subject: Re: Did Varney 'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or valve gear
Group: vintageHO Message: 10476 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/7/2009
Subject: Re: Did Varney 'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or valve gear
Group: vintageHO Message: 10477 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/7/2009
Subject: Re: Did Varney 'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or valve gear
Group: vintageHO Message: 10478 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/7/2009
Subject: Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 10479 From: jim heckard Date: 5/7/2009
Subject: Apology
Group: vintageHO Message: 10480 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 5/7/2009
Subject: Re: Varney diesel switcher (was Did Varney 'Little Joe....)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10481 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/7/2009
Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 10482 From: Russ Shiel Date: 5/7/2009
Subject: Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10483 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/7/2009
Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 10484 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/7/2009
Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10485 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/7/2009
Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10486 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/7/2009
Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10487 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/7/2009
Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10488 From: Chris B Date: 5/8/2009
Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 10489 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/8/2009
Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 10490 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 5/8/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage HO Autos, was Pre-War Mantua
Group: vintageHO Message: 10491 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/8/2009
Subject: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
Group: vintageHO Message: 10492 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/8/2009
Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
Group: vintageHO Message: 10493 From: jim heckard Date: 5/8/2009
Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
Group: vintageHO Message: 10494 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/8/2009
Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10495 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/8/2009
Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
Group: vintageHO Message: 10496 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/8/2009
Subject: glitch
Group: vintageHO Message: 10497 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/8/2009
Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
Group: vintageHO Message: 10498 From: Mike Bauers Date: 5/8/2009
Subject: New Tool......... an USB mini-microscope!
Group: vintageHO Message: 10499 From: Mike Bauers Date: 5/8/2009
Subject: New Tool......... an USB mini-microscope!
Group: vintageHO Message: 10500 From: Rick Jones Date: 5/8/2009
Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10501 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/8/2009
Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10502 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 5/8/2009
Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10503 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/8/2009
Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about; Jim/Jay/et.al.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10504 From: John Hagen Date: 5/8/2009
Subject: Re: New Tool......... an USB mini-microscope!
Group: vintageHO Message: 10505 From: Mike Bauers Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: New Tool......... an USB mini-microscope!
Group: vintageHO Message: 10506 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10507 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about; Jim/Jay/et.al.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10508 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10509 From: Rick Jones Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10510 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10511 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain Addition
Group: vintageHO Message: 10512 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about; Jim/Jay/et.al.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10513 From: erieberk Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10514 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10515 From: curmudgeon Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10516 From: erieberk Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10517 From: erieberk Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
Group: vintageHO Message: 10518 From: erieberk Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10519 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10520 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about; Jim/Jay/et.al.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10521 From: John Hagen Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
Group: vintageHO Message: 10522 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10523 From: Chris B Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [6 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10524 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
Group: vintageHO Message: 10525 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10526 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10527 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10528 From: erieberk Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10529 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: must understand
Group: vintageHO Message: 10530 From: John Hagen Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: must understand
Group: vintageHO Message: 10531 From: erieberk Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10532 From: erieberk Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10533 From: Rick Jones Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10534 From: erieberk Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10535 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10536 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10537 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: must understand
Group: vintageHO Message: 10538 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: must understand
Group: vintageHO Message: 10539 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10540 From: Chris B Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: must understand
Group: vintageHO Message: 10541 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10542 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: must understand
Group: vintageHO Message: 10543 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [6 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10544 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10545 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about; Jim/Jay/et.al.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10546 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: must understand
Group: vintageHO Message: 10547 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10548 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10549 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10550 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10551 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10552 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10553 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10554 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10555 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: ebay vintage listings - that SP Mike
Group: vintageHO Message: 10556 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: must understand
Group: vintageHO Message: 10557 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: must understand / A Passion for Vintage HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 10558 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/9/2009
Subject: Re: must understand / A Passion for Vintage HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 10559 From: erieberk Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10560 From: erieberk Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10561 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10562 From: Dst8596587@aol.com Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10563 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10564 From: John Hagen Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: must understand
Group: vintageHO Message: 10565 From: jim heckard Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: adhesive for windows
Group: vintageHO Message: 10566 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: must understand
Group: vintageHO Message: 10567 From: erieberk Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10568 From: jim heckard Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10569 From: Gary Woodard Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: must understand
Group: vintageHO Message: 10570 From: Jim Waterman Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: must understand / A Passion for Vintage HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 10571 From: erieberk Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10572 From: Gary Woodard Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: must understand / A Passion for Vintage HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 10573 From: erieberk Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 10574 From: John Hagen Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: GB&W #145 (nee #60)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10575 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: GB&W #145 (nee #60) [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10576 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: must understand
Group: vintageHO Message: 10577 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: must understand
Group: vintageHO Message: 10578 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10579 From: John Hagen Date: 5/10/2009
Subject: Re: must understand
Group: vintageHO Message: 10580 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/11/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak ATSF reefer, surprise & wrap-up
Group: vintageHO Message: 10581 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 5/11/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10582 From: Charles Windes Date: 5/11/2009
Subject: Re: must understand
Group: vintageHO Message: 10583 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 5/11/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10584 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/11/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10585 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 5/11/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10586 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/11/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10587 From: jerrygart5 Date: 5/11/2009
Subject: Re: GB&W #145 (nee #60)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10588 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 5/12/2009
Subject: West Coast Model RR Newsletter
Group: vintageHO Message: 10589 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 5/12/2009
Subject: Re: must understand / A Passion for Vintage HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 10590 From: Chris B Date: 5/12/2009
Subject: Re: must understand / A Passion for Vintage HO + athearn bw shell
Group: vintageHO Message: 10591 From: solly_46 Date: 5/12/2009
Subject: Needed Older Athearn F7A Gear
Group: vintageHO Message: 10592 From: Chris B Date: 5/12/2009
Subject: Re: Needed Older Athearn F7A Gear
Group: vintageHO Message: 10593 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 5/12/2009
Subject: Re: West Coast Model RR Newsletter
Group: vintageHO Message: 10594 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/12/2009
Subject: Re: Needed Older Athearn F7A Gear
Group: vintageHO Message: 10595 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 5/12/2009
Subject: Re: West Coast Model RR Newsletter
Group: vintageHO Message: 10596 From: Jim Waterman Date: 5/12/2009
Subject: Re: must understand / A Passion for Vintage HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 10597 From: jim heckard Date: 5/13/2009
Subject: Vince Waterman
Group: vintageHO Message: 10598 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 5/13/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
Group: vintageHO Message: 10599 From: jim heckard Date: 5/13/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
Group: vintageHO Message: 10600 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 5/13/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Passenger SL-15
Group: vintageHO Message: 10601 From: Nelson Date: 5/13/2009
Subject: Re: GB&W #145 (nee #60)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10602 From: Chris B Date: 5/13/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
Group: vintageHO Message: 10603 From: John Hagen Date: 5/13/2009
Subject: Re: GB&W #145 (nee #60)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10604 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/13/2009
Subject: Varney Little Joe questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 10605 From: John Hagen Date: 5/13/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Little Joe questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 10606 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 5/14/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Little Joe questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 10607 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 5/14/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 10608 From: Ron Plyler Date: 5/14/2009
Subject: Varney NW-2 Parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 10609 From: jim heckard Date: 5/14/2009
Subject: Sampson Power Car Plans
Group: vintageHO Message: 10610 From: jim heckard Date: 5/14/2009
Subject: Fantasy" Dockside
Group: vintageHO Message: 10611 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/14/2009
Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10612 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 5/14/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
Group: vintageHO Message: 10613 From: Gary Woodard Date: 5/14/2009
Subject: Re: Varney NW-2 Parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 10614 From: oljoeoh Date: 5/14/2009
Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside
Group: vintageHO Message: 10615 From: oljoeoh Date: 5/14/2009
Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10616 From: Charles Windes Date: 5/14/2009
Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10617 From: Charles Windes Date: 5/14/2009
Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10618 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 5/14/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10619 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 5/14/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10620 From: jim heckard Date: 5/14/2009
Subject: Knapp/Bowser ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10621 From: erieberk Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
Group: vintageHO Message: 10622 From: erieberk Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Passenger SL-15
Group: vintageHO Message: 10623 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: GB&W #145 (nee #60)
Group: vintageHO Message: 10624 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside
Group: vintageHO Message: 10625 From: erieberk Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10626 From: erieberk Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Power Car Plans
Group: vintageHO Message: 10627 From: erieberk Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10628 From: erieberk Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10629 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10630 From: jim heckard Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Bowser/Knapp Boilers
Group: vintageHO Message: 10631 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10632 From: erieberk Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10633 From: erieberk Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10634 From: oljoeoh Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside
Group: vintageHO Message: 10635 From: erieberk Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10636 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside w/ More Pics of the drivers
Group: vintageHO Message: 10637 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
Group: vintageHO Message: 10638 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Bowser/Knapp Boilers [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10639 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Little Joe questions-John
Group: vintageHO Message: 10640 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Sampson Passenger SL-15
Group: vintageHO Message: 10641 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Little Joe questions [2 Attachments]-Jay
Group: vintageHO Message: 10642 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside [3 Attachments]-Jim
Group: vintageHO Message: 10643 From: John Hagen Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside w/ More Pics of the drivers
Group: vintageHO Message: 10644 From: Nelson Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside
Group: vintageHO Message: 10645 From: Nelson Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside
Group: vintageHO Message: 10646 From: erieberk Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
Group: vintageHO Message: 10647 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside
Group: vintageHO Message: 10648 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10649 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10650 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Little Joe//Mantua Little Six - BEDT Prototypes
Group: vintageHO Message: 10651 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Little Joe//Mantua Little Six - BEDT Prototypes
Group: vintageHO Message: 10652 From: jim heckard Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: layout progressing
Group: vintageHO Message: 10653 From: Garry Spear Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: FS: for sale Varney PRR Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 10654 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Zamac rot question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10655 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: Little Joe//Mantua Little Six - BEDT Prototypes
Group: vintageHO Message: 10656 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/15/2009
Subject: Re: //Mantua Little Six - BEDT Prototypes
Group: vintageHO Message: 10657 From: erieberk Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10658 From: oljoeoh Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside w/ More Pics of the drivers
Group: vintageHO Message: 10659 From: erieberk Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10660 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10661 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 10662 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10663 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
Group: vintageHO Message: 10664 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10665 From: Denny Anspach Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Zamac rot question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10666 From: Mike Sloane Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Zamac rot question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10667 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Zamac rot question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10668 From: Garry Spear Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Zamac rot question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10669 From: erieberk Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10670 From: erieberk Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
Group: vintageHO Message: 10671 From: erieberk Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Zamac rot question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10672 From: Charles Windes Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside
Group: vintageHO Message: 10673 From: Charles Windes Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: layout progressing [6 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10674 From: Graeme Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Zamac rot question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10675 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Zamac rot question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10676 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Zamac rot question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10677 From: Russ Shiel Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Eel River Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 10678 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10679 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: layout progressing
Group: vintageHO Message: 10680 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Old Wood Station Kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 10681 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10682 From: nvrr49 Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Zamac rot question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10683 From: Denny Anspach Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Zamac rot question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10684 From: Rick Jones Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10685 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/16/2009
Subject: Re: Eel River Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 10686 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 5/17/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID [9 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10687 From: Rick Jones Date: 5/17/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID [9 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10688 From: Graeme Date: 5/17/2009
Subject: Re: Zamac rot question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10689 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/17/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10690 From: erieberk Date: 5/17/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10691 From: erieberk Date: 5/17/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10692 From: erieberk Date: 5/17/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10693 From: erieberk Date: 5/17/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10694 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/17/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak List; Cliff Line Bobbers was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10695 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/17/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10696 From: Nelson Date: 5/17/2009
Subject: Zamac rot question
Group: vintageHO Message: 10697 From: jim heckard Date: 5/19/2009
Subject: Varney celluloid Passenger
Group: vintageHO Message: 10698 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/19/2009
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid Passenger
Group: vintageHO Message: 10699 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 5/19/2009
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid Passenger [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10700 From: jim heckard Date: 5/19/2009
Subject: Varney Celluloid Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10701 From: jim heckard Date: 5/19/2009
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid Passenger
Group: vintageHO Message: 10702 From: jim heckard Date: 5/19/2009
Subject: Trucks on Varney Passenger
Group: vintageHO Message: 10703 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 5/19/2009
Subject: Re: Trucks on Varney Passenger [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10704 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/19/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Celluloid Passenger Cars [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10705 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 5/19/2009
Subject: American Beauty GN Pendulum Chair Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 10706 From: jim heckard Date: 5/19/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Celluloid Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10707 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/19/2009
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN Pendulum Chair Car [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10708 From: jim heckard Date: 5/19/2009
Subject: Re: Trucks on Varney Passenger
Group: vintageHO Message: 10709 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/19/2009
Subject: Re: Talgo couplers
Group: vintageHO Message: 10710 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 5/19/2009
Subject: Re: Talgo couplers
Group: vintageHO Message: 10711 From: toytrain13 Date: 5/19/2009
Subject: Re: Varney celluloid Passenger
Group: vintageHO Message: 10712 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/19/2009
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN Pendulum Chair Car [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10713 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 5/19/2009
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN Pendulum Chair Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 10714 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/20/2009
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN Pendulum Chair Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 10715 From: Mike Bauers Date: 5/20/2009
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN Pendulum Chair Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 10716 From: jim heckard Date: 5/20/2009
Subject: Most used trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 10717 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 5/20/2009
Subject: Re: Most used trucks [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10718 From: jim heckard Date: 5/20/2009
Subject: Marx Hustler Truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 10719 From: Chris B Date: 5/20/2009
Subject: Re: Most used trucks [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10720 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 5/20/2009
Subject: Re: Most used trucks [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10721 From: Riverboy Date: 5/20/2009
Subject: MT Washington Cog Railway ( Slightly Off Topic )
Group: vintageHO Message: 10722 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/20/2009
Subject: Re: MT Washington Cog Railway ( Slightly Off Topic )
Group: vintageHO Message: 10723 From: Jack Priller Date: 5/20/2009
Subject: RDC by who? when?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10724 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/20/2009
Subject: Re: RDC by who? when?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10725 From: oljoeoh Date: 5/21/2009
Subject: Re: Most used trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 10726 From: Jack Priller Date: 5/22/2009
Subject: Re: RDC by who? when?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10727 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/22/2009
Subject: Re: RDC by who? when?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10728 From: jim heckard Date: 5/22/2009
Subject: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10729 From: Jack Priller Date: 5/22/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10730 From: Chris B Date: 5/22/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10731 From: jim heckard Date: 5/22/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10732 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/22/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10733 From: Chris B Date: 5/22/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10734 From: Nelson Date: 5/23/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10735 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 5/23/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10736 From: Wobbly913 Date: 5/23/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10737 From: jim heckard Date: 5/23/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10738 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/23/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10739 From: Nelson Date: 5/24/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10740 From: Wobbly913 Date: 5/24/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10741 From: jim heckard Date: 5/24/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10742 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/24/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10743 From: Bill Daley Date: 5/25/2009
Subject: Re: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Pl
Group: vintageHO Message: 10744 From: jim heckard Date: 5/25/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday
Group: vintageHO Message: 10745 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/25/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday
Group: vintageHO Message: 10746 From: John Barlow Date: 5/25/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday
Group: vintageHO Message: 10747 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/25/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday
Group: vintageHO Message: 10748 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/25/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday
Group: vintageHO Message: 10749 From: Nelson Date: 5/25/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10750 From: oljoeoh Date: 5/26/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10751 From: Nelson Date: 5/26/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10752 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 5/26/2009
Subject: Re: John Barlow's Comment on The Holiday
Group: vintageHO Message: 10753 From: Fred Stevens K2FRD Date: 5/26/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday
Group: vintageHO Message: 10754 From: asleepy60 Date: 5/26/2009
Subject: Unknown
Group: vintageHO Message: 10755 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 5/26/2009
Subject: Re: Unknown
Group: vintageHO Message: 10756 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 5/26/2009
Subject: Re: Unknown
Group: vintageHO Message: 10757 From: curmudgeon Date: 5/26/2009
Subject: Re: Unknown
Group: vintageHO Message: 10758 From: curmudgeon Date: 5/26/2009
Subject: Re: Unknown
Group: vintageHO Message: 10759 From: Mike Bauers Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: Re: Unknown
Group: vintageHO Message: 10760 From: oljoeoh Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10761 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: 2 MDC 0-6-0 projects this wekend.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10762 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday
Group: vintageHO Message: 10763 From: Henry Hultgren Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday
Group: vintageHO Message: 10764 From: jim heckard Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday
Group: vintageHO Message: 10765 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday
Group: vintageHO Message: 10766 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: Re: 2 MDC 0-6-0 projects this wekend.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10767 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: Re: 2 MDC 0-6-0 projects this wekend.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10768 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 10769 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: Re: 2 MDC 0-6-0 projects this wekend.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10770 From: Chris B Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: Re: 2 MDC 0-6-0 projects this wekend.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10771 From: Nelson Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10772 From: solly_46 Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: wanted older athearn loco f7a gear
Group: vintageHO Message: 10773 From: Nelson Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday
Group: vintageHO Message: 10774 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10775 From: curmudgeon Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday
Group: vintageHO Message: 10776 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: Re: 2 MDC 0-6-0 projects this wekend. [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10777 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/27/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday
Group: vintageHO Message: 10778 From: Raymond Lorts Sr Date: 5/28/2009
Subject: Fw: The Old Man ONE TO BE PROUD OF
Group: vintageHO Message: 10779 From: oljoeoh Date: 5/28/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10780 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 5/28/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: The Old Man ONE TO BE PROUD OF
Group: vintageHO Message: 10781 From: Fred Stevens K2FRD Date: 5/28/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday and Follow-up
Group: vintageHO Message: 10782 From: Henry Hultgren Date: 5/28/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday and Follow-up
Group: vintageHO Message: 10783 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 5/28/2009
Subject: My first Mantua Mighty Mite -- Opinions?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10784 From: John Barlow Date: 5/29/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday and Follow-up...in a Modeler's Sense
Group: vintageHO Message: 10785 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/29/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday and Follow-up
Group: vintageHO Message: 10786 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 5/29/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday and Follow-up
Group: vintageHO Message: 10787 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 5/29/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday and Follow-up...in a Modeler's Sense
Group: vintageHO Message: 10788 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 5/29/2009
Subject: Huntingdon Model Works - Mystery Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 10789 From: louis niederlander Date: 5/29/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday and Follow-up...in a Modeler's Sense
Group: vintageHO Message: 10790 From: jim heckard Date: 5/29/2009
Subject: Mantua Mighty Mite
Group: vintageHO Message: 10791 From: trainliker Date: 5/29/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Mighty Mite
Group: vintageHO Message: 10792 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 5/29/2009
Subject: Re: Huntingdon Model Works - Mystery Locomotive [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10793 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/29/2009
Subject: Re: Huntingdon Model Works - Mystery Locomotive [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10794 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/29/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Mighty Mite [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10795 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 5/29/2009
Subject: Re: Huntingdon Model Works - Mystery Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 10796 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/29/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Mighty Mite [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10797 From: Nelson Date: 5/30/2009
Subject: Olympic Express GP9?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10798 From: Mike Bauers Date: 5/30/2009
Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10799 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/30/2009
Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10800 From: Wobbly913 Date: 5/30/2009
Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10801 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/31/2009
Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10802 From: Denny Anspach Date: 5/31/2009
Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10803 From: nvrr49 Date: 5/31/2009
Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10804 From: Nelson Date: 5/31/2009
Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10805 From: Nelson Date: 5/31/2009
Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10806 From: Nelson Date: 5/31/2009
Subject: Re: Holiday and Follow-up
Group: vintageHO Message: 10807 From: Don Dellmann Date: 5/31/2009
Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10808 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/1/2009
Subject: Re: wanted older athearn loco f7a gear
Group: vintageHO Message: 10809 From: the_plainsman Date: 6/2/2009
Subject: Re: Huntingdon Model Works - Mystery Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 10810 From: jim heckard Date: 6/2/2009
Subject: Pacemaker Line
Group: vintageHO Message: 10811 From: Clark Gregory Date: 6/2/2009
Subject: Chicago hobby shop
Group: vintageHO Message: 10812 From: trainliker Date: 6/2/2009
Subject: Re: Chicago hobby shop
Group: vintageHO Message: 10813 From: trainliker Date: 6/2/2009
Subject: Re: Chicago hobby shop
Group: vintageHO Message: 10814 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 6/2/2009
Subject: Re: Chicago hobby shop
Group: vintageHO Message: 10815 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 6/2/2009
Subject: Re: Pacemaker Line [3 Attachments
Group: vintageHO Message: 10816 From: jim heckard Date: 6/2/2009
Subject: Re: Pacemaker Line [3 Attachments
Group: vintageHO Message: 10817 From: jim heckard Date: 6/2/2009
Subject: pacemaker Battery powered
Group: vintageHO Message: 10818 From: Denny Anspach Date: 6/2/2009
Subject: Athearn metal RDCs
Group: vintageHO Message: 10819 From: RaymondLorts@yahoo.com Date: 6/2/2009
Subject: train 1940
Group: vintageHO Message: 10820 From: jim heckard Date: 6/3/2009
Subject: Re: train 1940
Group: vintageHO Message: 10821 From: Clark Gregory Date: 6/3/2009
Subject: Re: Chicago hobby shop
Group: vintageHO Message: 10822 From: Nelson Date: 6/3/2009
Subject: Re: Pacemaker Line [3 Attachments
Group: vintageHO Message: 10823 From: jim heckard Date: 6/5/2009
Subject: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 10824 From: the_plainsman Date: 6/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 10825 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 6/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10826 From: nvrr49 Date: 6/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 10827 From: jim heckard Date: 6/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 10828 From: trainliker Date: 6/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 10829 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 10830 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 6/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 10831 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10832 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 6/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 10833 From: the_plainsman Date: 6/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 10834 From: frank Date: 6/5/2009
Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9 ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10835 From: Glenn476 Date: 6/5/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 10836 From: jim heckard Date: 6/5/2009
Subject: Carnation Globe/Athearn Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10837 From: Russ Shiel Date: 6/5/2009
Subject: 1951 Varney parts catalogue
Group: vintageHO Message: 10838 From: Wobbly913 Date: 6/5/2009
Subject: Re: Carnation Globe/Athearn Passenger Cars [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10839 From: nvrr49 Date: 6/6/2009
Subject: ebay item #110397570625
Group: vintageHO Message: 10840 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/6/2009
Subject: Re: ebay item #110397570625
Group: vintageHO Message: 10841 From: nvrr49 Date: 6/6/2009
Subject: try 110397570626 was Re: ebay item #110397570625
Group: vintageHO Message: 10842 From: Chris B Date: 6/6/2009
Subject: Re: ebay item #110397570625
Group: vintageHO Message: 10843 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 6/6/2009
Subject: Re: ebay item #110397570625
Group: vintageHO Message: 10844 From: jim heckard Date: 6/6/2009
Subject: Ebay Number
Group: vintageHO Message: 10845 From: jim heckard Date: 6/6/2009
Subject: Re: Ebay Number
Group: vintageHO Message: 10846 From: jim heckard Date: 6/6/2009
Subject: Re: Ebay Number
Group: vintageHO Message: 10847 From: James E Crowell, BSc, MEd Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 10848 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 10849 From: the_plainsman Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones, 1st vs 2nd run: headlight change?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10850 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones, 1st vs 2nd run: headlight change?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10851 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 10852 From: the_plainsman Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 10853 From: Glenn476 Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 10854 From: Glenn476 Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 10855 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 10856 From: jim heckard Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 10857 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 10858 From: Rick Jones Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 10859 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 10860 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 10861 From: Ron Plyler Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 10862 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 10863 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 10864 From: John Hagen Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 10865 From: Glenn476 Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 10866 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors-John
Group: vintageHO Message: 10867 From: Glenn476 Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 10868 From: erieberk Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 10869 From: erieberk Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: V List Walthers Metal Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10870 From: ron plyler Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 10871 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: V List Walthers Metal Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10872 From: Don Grant Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 10873 From: Don Dellmann Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: V List Walthers Metal Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10874 From: Rick Jones Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 10875 From: Wobbly913 Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 10876 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 10877 From: Mike Bauers Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 10878 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
Group: vintageHO Message: 10879 From: Rick Jones Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 10880 From: Rick Jones Date: 6/7/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
Group: vintageHO Message: 10881 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
Group: vintageHO Message: 10882 From: Gary Woodard Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
Group: vintageHO Message: 10883 From: erieberk Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: V List Walthers Metal Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 10884 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 10885 From: the_plainsman Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
Group: vintageHO Message: 10886 From: Mike Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 10887 From: Larry Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
Group: vintageHO Message: 10888 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
Group: vintageHO Message: 10889 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
Group: vintageHO Message: 10890 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
Group: vintageHO Message: 10891 From: Glenn476 Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
Group: vintageHO Message: 10892 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
Group: vintageHO Message: 10893 From: John Hagen Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
Group: vintageHO Message: 10894 From: Wobbly913 Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
Group: vintageHO Message: 10895 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 10896 From: trainliker Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
Group: vintageHO Message: 10897 From: Rick Jones Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 10898 From: wboeschjr Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Athearn Super Loc
Group: vintageHO Message: 10899 From: jim heckard Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: I. D . help
Group: vintageHO Message: 10900 From: curmudgeon Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Super Loc
Group: vintageHO Message: 10901 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: I. D . help
Group: vintageHO Message: 10902 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: I. D . help
Group: vintageHO Message: 10903 From: jim heckard Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: I. D . help
Group: vintageHO Message: 10904 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: I. D . help
Group: vintageHO Message: 10905 From: jim heckard Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: I. D . help
Group: vintageHO Message: 10906 From: William Boesch Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Super Loc
Group: vintageHO Message: 10907 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal-using savings acct.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10908 From: Rick Jones Date: 6/8/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal-using savings acct.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10909 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/9/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal-using savings acct.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10910 From: Mike Bauers Date: 6/9/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal-using savings acct.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10911 From: erieberk Date: 6/9/2009
Subject: Re: I. D . help
Group: vintageHO Message: 10912 From: erieberk Date: 6/9/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
Group: vintageHO Message: 10913 From: Rick Jones Date: 6/9/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal-using savings acct.
Group: vintageHO Message: 10914 From: Donald Huddleston Date: 6/9/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
Group: vintageHO Message: 10915 From: trainliker Date: 6/9/2009
Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
Group: vintageHO Message: 10916 From: jim heckard Date: 6/9/2009
Subject: Revell Dockside/Varney Plastic Body
Group: vintageHO Message: 10917 From: toytrain13 Date: 6/10/2009
Subject: Stripping old Hobbytown
Group: vintageHO Message: 10918 From: Glenn476 Date: 6/10/2009
Subject: Re: Stripping old Hobbytown
Group: vintageHO Message: 10919 From: Don Dellmann Date: 6/10/2009
Subject: Re: Stripping old Hobbytown
Group: vintageHO Message: 10920 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 6/10/2009
Subject: That SP baggage car
Group: vintageHO Message: 10921 From: Chris B Date: 6/11/2009
Subject: Re: Stripping old Hobbytown
Group: vintageHO Message: 10922 From: Mike Bauers Date: 6/11/2009
Subject: Re: Stripping old Hobbytown
Group: vintageHO Message: 10923 From: Chris B Date: 6/11/2009
Subject: Re: Stripping old Hobbytown
Group: vintageHO Message: 10924 From: toytrain13 Date: 6/11/2009
Subject: Stripping old Hobbytown
Group: vintageHO Message: 10925 From: Don Dellmann Date: 6/11/2009
Subject: Re: Stripping old Hobbytown
Group: vintageHO Message: 10926 From: Mike Bauers Date: 6/11/2009
Subject: Re: Stripping old Hobbytown
Group: vintageHO Message: 10927 From: John Hagen Date: 6/12/2009
Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 10928 From: Jim Waterman Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Stripping old Hobbytown
Group: vintageHO Message: 10929 From: jim heckard Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10930 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ???? [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10931 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10932 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ???? [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10933 From: the_plainsman Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10934 From: jim heckard Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10935 From: jim heckard Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10936 From: jim heckard Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10937 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: PSM Diesel at MCOR NMRA show today
Group: vintageHO Message: 10938 From: jim heckard Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Guess who clue
Group: vintageHO Message: 10939 From: jim heckard Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Guess by Who
Group: vintageHO Message: 10940 From: Don Dellmann Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10941 From: Don Dellmann Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Moderator note (was Re: [vintageHO] PSM Diesel at MCOR NMRA show tod
Group: vintageHO Message: 10942 From: jim heckard Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10943 From: toytrain13 Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Stripping old Hobbytown
Group: vintageHO Message: 10944 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10945 From: nvrr49 Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Moderator note (was Re: [vintageHO] PSM Diesel at MCOR NMRA show tod
Group: vintageHO Message: 10946 From: Dennis Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: John Hagen: Mantua motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 10947 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10948 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10949 From: jim heckard Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ???? [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10950 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ???? [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10951 From: Walter Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ???? [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10952 From: Nelson Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10953 From: the_plainsman Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ???? [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10954 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10955 From: Nelson Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: NWSL replacement gearbox for Athearn 4-6-2 and 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 10956 From: Walter Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10957 From: Walter J. Bayer II Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10958 From: Don Dellmann Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10959 From: jim heckard Date: 6/13/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10960 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/14/2009
Subject: Another one....
Group: vintageHO Message: 10961 From: jim heckard Date: 6/14/2009
Subject: Re: Another one....
Group: vintageHO Message: 10962 From: jim heckard Date: 6/14/2009
Subject: Herkimer Fact
Group: vintageHO Message: 10963 From: Chris B Date: 6/14/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
Group: vintageHO Message: 10964 From: Garry Spear Date: 6/15/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10965 From: jim heckard Date: 6/15/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10966 From: Garry Spear Date: 6/16/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10967 From: jim heckard Date: 6/16/2009
Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
Group: vintageHO Message: 10968 From: jim heckard Date: 6/16/2009
Subject: Pennslvania expert needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 10969 From: toytrain13 Date: 6/16/2009
Subject: Re: Pennslvania expert needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 10970 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 6/16/2009
Subject: Re: Pennslvania expert needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 10971 From: Jack Priller Date: 6/16/2009
Subject: Rubber bands?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10972 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 6/16/2009
Subject: Re: Rubber bands?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10973 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 6/16/2009
Subject: Re: Rubber bands?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10974 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 6/16/2009
Subject: Re: Rubber bands?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10975 From: jim heckard Date: 6/16/2009
Subject: Re: Pennslvania expert needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 10976 From: Jack Priller Date: 6/16/2009
Subject: Re: Rubber bands?
Group: vintageHO Message: 10977 From: the_plainsman Date: 6/17/2009
Subject: Challenger Challenge
Group: vintageHO Message: 10978 From: solly_46 Date: 6/18/2009
Subject: WTD: Gear for older Athearn F7A Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 10979 From: jim heckard Date: 6/20/2009
Subject: help info please
Group: vintageHO Message: 10980 From: the_plainsman Date: 6/20/2009
Subject: Re: help info please
Group: vintageHO Message: 10981 From: jim heckard Date: 6/20/2009
Subject: Re: help info please
Group: vintageHO Message: 10982 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/22/2009
Subject: Re: help info please [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10983 From: jim heckard Date: 6/22/2009
Subject: Re: help info please [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 10984 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/22/2009
Subject: Re: Challenger Challenge
Group: vintageHO Message: 10985 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/22/2009
Subject: Re: Challenger Challenge
Group: vintageHO Message: 10986 From: Mike Bauers Date: 6/22/2009
Subject: Re: help info please
Group: vintageHO Message: 10987 From: Mike Bauers Date: 6/22/2009
Subject: Re: Challenger Challenge
Group: vintageHO Message: 10988 From: jim heckard Date: 6/22/2009
Subject: Bowser Challenger & Tender
Group: vintageHO Message: 10989 From: curmudgeon Date: 6/22/2009
Subject: Re: help info please
Group: vintageHO Message: 10990 From: the_plainsman Date: 6/24/2009
Subject: News Today, Hal Carstens' Last Run
Group: vintageHO Message: 10991 From: Don Dellmann Date: 6/24/2009
Subject: Re: News Today, Hal Carstens' Last Run
Group: vintageHO Message: 10992 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 6/24/2009
Subject: Re: News Today, Hal Carstens' Last Run
Group: vintageHO Message: 10993 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 6/28/2009
Subject: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 10994 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/28/2009
Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 10995 From: the_plainsman Date: 6/28/2009
Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 10996 From: the_plainsman Date: 6/28/2009
Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 10997 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 6/28/2009
Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 10998 From: Roger Aultman Date: 6/28/2009
Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 10999 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/28/2009
Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 11000 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 6/28/2009
Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 11001 From: Mike Bauers Date: 6/28/2009
Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 11002 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/28/2009
Subject: Mantua Booster with slanted side tanks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11003 From: Roger Aultman Date: 6/28/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Booster with slanted side tanks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11004 From: curmudgeon Date: 6/28/2009
Subject: Kibri Building
Group: vintageHO Message: 11005 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 6/28/2009
Subject: Re: Kibri Building
Group: vintageHO Message: 11006 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/28/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Booster with slanted side tanks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11007 From: jay matz Date: 6/28/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Booster with slanted side tanks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11008 From: the_plainsman Date: 6/28/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Booster with slanted side tanks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11009 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 6/28/2009
Subject: Lindsey Navy Yard Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 11010 From: cnj999 Date: 6/28/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua Booster with slanted side tanks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11011 From: Gary Woodard Date: 6/29/2009
Subject: [The GAUX Dispatcher] Can someone please explain to me...
Group: vintageHO Message: 11012 From: Gary Woodard Date: 6/29/2009
Subject: New Vids
Group: vintageHO Message: 11013 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 6/29/2009
Subject: Re: Lindsey Navy Yard Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 11014 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 6/29/2009
Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 11015 From: Glenn476 Date: 6/29/2009
Subject: Re: Lindsey Navy Yard Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 11016 From: Wallace E. Tabor Date: 6/29/2009
Subject: John Galt Road (Route)(Lines)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11017 From: Graeme Date: 6/29/2009
Subject: Re: Kibri Building
Group: vintageHO Message: 11018 From: the_plainsman Date: 6/29/2009
Subject: Re: John Galt Road (Route)(Lines)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11019 From: the_plainsman Date: 6/29/2009
Subject: Re: Kibri Building
Group: vintageHO Message: 11020 From: Mike Bauers Date: 6/29/2009
Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 11021 From: Graeme Date: 6/29/2009
Subject: Re: Kibri Building
Group: vintageHO Message: 11022 From: Wallace E. Tabor Date: 6/30/2009
Subject: Re: John Galt Road (Route)(Lines)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11023 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 7/3/2009
Subject: Canada Day
Group: vintageHO Message: 11024 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 7/3/2009
Subject: Happy Independence Day!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11025 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/4/2009
Subject: Re: Happy Independence Day!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11026 From: tubamarx Date: 7/4/2009
Subject: Comet Freight Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11027 From: Russ Shiel Date: 7/4/2009
Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11028 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 7/4/2009
Subject: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
Group: vintageHO Message: 11029 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 7/4/2009
Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
Group: vintageHO Message: 11030 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 7/4/2009
Subject: Can anyone identify?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11031 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 7/4/2009
Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11032 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 7/5/2009
Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
Group: vintageHO Message: 11033 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/5/2009
Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11034 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/5/2009
Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
Group: vintageHO Message: 11035 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/5/2009
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11036 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/5/2009
Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11037 From: DiDi Date: 7/5/2009
Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11038 From: nvrr49 Date: 7/5/2009
Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
Group: vintageHO Message: 11039 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 7/5/2009
Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
Group: vintageHO Message: 11040 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/5/2009
Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
Group: vintageHO Message: 11041 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 7/5/2009
Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
Group: vintageHO Message: 11042 From: nvrr49 Date: 7/5/2009
Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
Group: vintageHO Message: 11043 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 7/5/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 11044 From: nvrr49 Date: 7/5/2009
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11045 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 7/5/2009
Subject: Re: Can anyone identify?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11046 From: Lee Date: 7/5/2009
Subject: varney book on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 11047 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 7/5/2009
Subject: tips on frame for old Mantua Pacific please
Group: vintageHO Message: 11048 From: Russ Shiel Date: 7/5/2009
Subject: Re: Comet MKT 67001
Group: vintageHO Message: 11049 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 7/6/2009
Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11050 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 7/6/2009
Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11051 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 7/6/2009
Subject: Re: tips on frame for old Mantua Pacific please
Group: vintageHO Message: 11052 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 7/6/2009
Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11053 From: erieberk Date: 7/7/2009
Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11054 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/7/2009
Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11055 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 7/7/2009
Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11056 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 7/7/2009
Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11057 From: Rick Jones Date: 7/8/2009
Subject: Some New Acquisitions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11058 From: Mike Sloane Date: 7/8/2009
Subject: Re: Some New Acquisitions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11059 From: John Hagen Date: 7/8/2009
Subject: Re: Some New Acquisitions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11060 From: John Hagen Date: 7/8/2009
Subject: Re: Some New Acquisitions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11061 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/8/2009
Subject: Re: Some New Acquisitions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11062 From: Thomas Donahue Date: 7/8/2009
Subject: Re: Some New Acquisitions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11063 From: Rick Jones Date: 7/8/2009
Subject: Re: Some New Acquisitions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11064 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 7/8/2009
Subject: Red Ball Cook Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 11065 From: jerrygart5 Date: 7/8/2009
Subject: Re: Some New Acquisitions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11066 From: Mike Bauers Date: 7/8/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Cook Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 11067 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/8/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Cook Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 11068 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 7/8/2009
Subject: MDC G&D cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11069 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/9/2009
Subject: Re: Another G&D Boxcar besides the MDC G&D cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11070 From: Rick Jones Date: 7/9/2009
Subject: Re: MDC G&D cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11071 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 7/9/2009
Subject: I know its a long shot
Group: vintageHO Message: 11072 From: sottguy Date: 7/10/2009
Subject: new photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 11073 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/11/2009
Subject: Re: Challenger Challenge
Group: vintageHO Message: 11074 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/11/2009
Subject: Re: new photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 11075 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 7/12/2009
Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11076 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 7/12/2009
Subject: Westwood instructions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11077 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/12/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood instructions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11078 From: Askerberg Date: 7/12/2009
Subject: Re: new photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 11079 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 7/12/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood instructions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11080 From: erieberk Date: 7/12/2009
Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11081 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 7/12/2009
Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11082 From: Mike Bauers Date: 7/12/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood instructions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11083 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 7/12/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood instructions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11084 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 7/13/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood instructions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11085 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 7/13/2009
Subject: Re: Westwood instructions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11086 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/13/2009
Subject: Another interesting find!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11087 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/14/2009
Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11088 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/14/2009
Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11089 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/15/2009
Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11090 From: Garry Spear Date: 7/15/2009
Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11091 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/15/2009
Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11092 From: John Hagen Date: 7/15/2009
Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11093 From: Graeme Date: 7/15/2009
Subject: Re: Another interesting find! [7 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11094 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/15/2009
Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11095 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 7/15/2009
Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11096 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/15/2009
Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11097 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/15/2009
Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11098 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/15/2009
Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11099 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 7/16/2009
Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11100 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/16/2009
Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11101 From: Graeme Date: 7/17/2009
Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11102 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/17/2009
Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11103 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 7/17/2009
Subject: International CNJ Caboose
Group: vintageHO Message: 11104 From: Jim Waterman Date: 7/18/2009
Subject: International CNJ Caboose
Group: vintageHO Message: 11105 From: solly_46 Date: 7/18/2009
Subject: Trix H0 Locomotive Wheel Cleaning Brush
Group: vintageHO Message: 11106 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/18/2009
Subject: Re: International CNJ & UP Cabooses
Group: vintageHO Message: 11107 From: Mike Sloane Date: 7/18/2009
Subject: Re: Trix H0 Locomotive Wheel Cleaning Brush
Group: vintageHO Message: 11108 From: Jim Waterman Date: 7/19/2009
Subject: Re: International CNJ & UP Cabooses
Group: vintageHO Message: 11109 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/19/2009
Subject: MR Magazines.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11110 From: Gary Woodard Date: 7/20/2009
Subject: [model-railroad-hobbyist] Get the best in free model railroading inf
Group: vintageHO Message: 11111 From: jim heckard Date: 7/20/2009
Subject: wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 11112 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/21/2009
Subject: Re: wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 11113 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2009
Subject: Re: wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 11114 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2009
Subject: Lindberg SW engines
Group: vintageHO Message: 11115 From: anypaddler Date: 7/22/2009
Subject: Re: Lindberg SW engines
Group: vintageHO Message: 11116 From: erieberk Date: 7/22/2009
Subject: Re: International CNJ Caboose
Group: vintageHO Message: 11117 From: jim heckard Date: 7/22/2009
Subject: Re: Lindberg SW engines
Group: vintageHO Message: 11118 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 7/22/2009
Subject: Re: Lindberg SW engines
Group: vintageHO Message: 11119 From: jim heckard Date: 7/22/2009
Subject: Re: Lindberg SW engines
Group: vintageHO Message: 11120 From: jim heckard Date: 7/22/2009
Subject: Engine ID needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 11121 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/22/2009
Subject: Re: Engine ID needed [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11122 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/22/2009
Subject: Re: Lindberg SW engines
Group: vintageHO Message: 11123 From: toytrain13 Date: 7/22/2009
Subject: Blue Line roof vents
Group: vintageHO Message: 11124 From: jim heckard Date: 7/22/2009
Subject: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11125 From: Mike Bauers Date: 7/22/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line roof vents
Group: vintageHO Message: 11126 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/22/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6 [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11127 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/22/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11128 From: Mike Bauers Date: 7/22/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11129 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/22/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11130 From: jim heckard Date: 7/23/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11131 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/23/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11132 From: John Hagen Date: 7/23/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11133 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 7/23/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11134 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 7/23/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11135 From: jim heckard Date: 7/23/2009
Subject: photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 11136 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/23/2009
Subject: Re: photos [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11137 From: jim heckard Date: 7/23/2009
Subject: My Winton
Group: vintageHO Message: 11138 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/23/2009
Subject: Re: photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 11139 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/23/2009
Subject: Re: My Winton [7 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11140 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 7/23/2009
Subject: Winton?? 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11141 From: morgantownrr Date: 7/23/2009
Subject: Gingerbread Stop
Group: vintageHO Message: 11142 From: jim heckard Date: 7/23/2009
Subject: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11143 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/23/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line roof vents
Group: vintageHO Message: 11144 From: erieberk Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11145 From: erieberk Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: Engine ID needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 11146 From: erieberk Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: Engine ID needed [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11147 From: erieberk Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11148 From: erieberk Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6 [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11149 From: Brent Buckley Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 11150 From: erieberk Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11151 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11152 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11153 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 11154 From: erieberk Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: My Winton
Group: vintageHO Message: 11155 From: erieberk Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11156 From: erieberk Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: Abour Models Allegheny, was -- 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11157 From: jim heckard Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11158 From: jim heckard Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: My Winton
Group: vintageHO Message: 11159 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: Abour Models Allegheny, was -- 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11160 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 11161 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: International CNJ Caboose, other cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11162 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line roof vents
Group: vintageHO Message: 11163 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 11164 From: jim heckard Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11165 From: jim heckard Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: International / New One ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11166 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: International / New One "Dickson Hog"
Group: vintageHO Message: 11167 From: erieberk Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11168 From: erieberk Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: My Winton
Group: vintageHO Message: 11169 From: erieberk Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: Arbour Models Allegheny, was -- 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11170 From: jim heckard Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11171 From: erieberk Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: International CNJ Caboose, other cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11172 From: Mike Bauers Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 11173 From: Brent Buckley Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 11174 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11175 From: erieberk Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11176 From: erieberk Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11177 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Calling Mike Bauers
Group: vintageHO Message: 11178 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: International CNJ Caboose, other cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11179 From: jim heckard Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11180 From: John Hagen Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Early brass/cast Mantua for sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 11181 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/24/2009
Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11182 From: Rick Jones Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Help Identifying
Group: vintageHO Message: 11183 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Which way do these hoppers face?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11184 From: nvrr49 Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Stuff I want to get rid of
Group: vintageHO Message: 11185 From: nvrr49 Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Stuff I want to get rid of
Group: vintageHO Message: 11186 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: International Models & other sheet metal sided boxcars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11187 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Which way do these hoppers face?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11188 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Stuff I want to get rid of
Group: vintageHO Message: 11189 From: erieberk Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: International CNJ Caboose, other cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11190 From: nvrr49 Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Stuff I want to get rid of
Group: vintageHO Message: 11191 From: erieberk Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11192 From: erieberk Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying
Group: vintageHO Message: 11193 From: erieberk Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: International Models & other sheet metal sided boxcars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11194 From: nvrr49 Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Which way do these hoppers face?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11195 From: jim heckard Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11196 From: Rick Jones Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying
Group: vintageHO Message: 11197 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Which way do these hoppers face?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11198 From: jim heckard Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Winton tender question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11199 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11200 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying
Group: vintageHO Message: 11201 From: erieberk Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11202 From: erieberk Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying
Group: vintageHO Message: 11203 From: erieberk Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying
Group: vintageHO Message: 11204 From: Rick Jones Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying
Group: vintageHO Message: 11205 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying
Group: vintageHO Message: 11206 From: Rick Jones Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying
Group: vintageHO Message: 11207 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying
Group: vintageHO Message: 11208 From: Nelson Date: 7/25/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying
Group: vintageHO Message: 11209 From: Russ Shiel Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11210 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying
Group: vintageHO Message: 11211 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying
Group: vintageHO Message: 11212 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying
Group: vintageHO Message: 11213 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying
Group: vintageHO Message: 11214 From: Howard R Garner Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: International Models & other sheet metal sided boxcars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11215 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: X2F coupler gauge
Group: vintageHO Message: 11216 From: Rick Jones Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying
Group: vintageHO Message: 11217 From: Rick Jones Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying
Group: vintageHO Message: 11218 From: docdenny34 Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11219 From: jim heckard Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11220 From: docdenny34 Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11221 From: Russ Shiel Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Red Ball card sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 11222 From: jim heckard Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11223 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball card sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 11224 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11225 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11226 From: Rick Jones Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball card sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 11227 From: jim heckard Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11228 From: nvrr49 Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11229 From: John Hagen Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: 2nd run Mantua Mike kit on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 11230 From: curmudgeon Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11231 From: Rick Jones Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball card sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 11232 From: Roger Aultman Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11233 From: John Hagen Date: 7/26/2009
Subject: Mantua brass and cxast Belle of the Eighties kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 11234 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 7/27/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11235 From: Mike Sloane Date: 7/27/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11236 From: erieberk Date: 7/27/2009
Subject: Re: International Models & other sheet metal sided boxcars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11237 From: erieberk Date: 7/27/2009
Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11238 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/27/2009
Subject: Re: X2F coupler gauge
Group: vintageHO Message: 11239 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/27/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball card sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 11240 From: Rick Jones Date: 7/27/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball card sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 11241 From: erieberk Date: 7/27/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying
Group: vintageHO Message: 11242 From: Brent Buckley Date: 7/27/2009
Subject: Re: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11243 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/27/2009
Subject: Re: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 11244 From: nvrr49 Date: 7/27/2009
Subject: Re: X2F coupler gauge
Group: vintageHO Message: 11245 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/27/2009
Subject: Re: X2F coupler gauge
Group: vintageHO Message: 11246 From: Richard White Date: 7/27/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line roof vents
Group: vintageHO Message: 11247 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 7/28/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11248 From: erieberk Date: 7/28/2009
Subject: Re: Gingerbread Stop
Group: vintageHO Message: 11249 From: jim heckard Date: 7/28/2009
Subject: Re: Conover 2-10-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 11250 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/28/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line roof vents
Group: vintageHO Message: 11251 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/28/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11252 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/28/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying L&N Flat Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11253 From: Rick Jones Date: 7/28/2009
Subject: Re: Help Identifying L&N Flat Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11254 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 7/29/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11255 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/29/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11256 From: Nelson Date: 7/29/2009
Subject: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11257 From: curmudgeon Date: 7/29/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11258 From: Nelson Date: 7/29/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11259 From: curmudgeon Date: 7/29/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11260 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 7/29/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11261 From: Raymond Lorts Sr Date: 7/30/2009
Subject: train
Group: vintageHO Message: 11262 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/30/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11263 From: curmudgeon Date: 7/30/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11264 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 7/30/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11265 From: trainliker Date: 7/30/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11266 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 7/30/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11267 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 7/30/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11268 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/30/2009
Subject: excess stuff
Group: vintageHO Message: 11269 From: Don Grant Date: 7/30/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11270 From: Jack Priller Date: 7/30/2009
Subject: Mis-listed eBay auctions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11271 From: Rick Jones Date: 7/30/2009
Subject: Re: Mis-listed eBay auctions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11272 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/31/2009
Subject: Re: Mis-listed eBay auctions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11273 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/31/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11274 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 7/31/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11275 From: nvrr49 Date: 7/31/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11276 From: jim heckard Date: 7/31/2009
Subject: E bay mis-listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 11277 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/31/2009
Subject: Re: E bay mis-listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 11278 From: Rick Jones Date: 7/31/2009
Subject: Re: E bay mis-listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 11279 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/31/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11280 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/31/2009
Subject: Re: E bay mis-listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 11281 From: jim heckard Date: 7/31/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11282 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/31/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11283 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 8/1/2009
Subject: Trackside Specialties locomotives in Jim Heckard's collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 11284 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/1/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11285 From: curmudgeon Date: 8/1/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11286 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/1/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11287 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 8/1/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11288 From: Denny Anspach Date: 8/2/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11289 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/2/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11290 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 8/2/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11291 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/2/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11292 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/2/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11293 From: Rick Jones Date: 8/2/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11294 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/2/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11295 From: docdenny34 Date: 8/2/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11296 From: Rick Jones Date: 8/2/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11297 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/2/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11298 From: Rick Jones Date: 8/2/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11299 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 8/3/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11300 From: erieberk Date: 8/3/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11301 From: Larry Date: 8/3/2009
Subject: HO Companies No Longer with US
Group: vintageHO Message: 11302 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/3/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11303 From: toytrain13 Date: 8/3/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11304 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/3/2009
Subject: dditional
Group: vintageHO Message: 11305 From: jim heckard Date: 8/3/2009
Subject: mantua 6 volt motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 11306 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 8/3/2009
Subject: Re: E bay mis-listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 11307 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/3/2009
Subject: Re: E bay mis-listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 11308 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/3/2009
Subject: Re: E bay mis-listings
Group: vintageHO Message: 11309 From: Tom Date: 8/4/2009
Subject: Mystery GG1 Please Help Identify
Group: vintageHO Message: 11310 From: Tom Date: 8/4/2009
Subject: Mystery GG1
Group: vintageHO Message: 11311 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 8/4/2009
Subject: Three "Special" Red Ball Work Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11312 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/4/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery GG1 Please Help Identify
Group: vintageHO Message: 11316 From: jim heckard Date: 8/4/2009
Subject: FAMOCO GG_1
Group: vintageHO Message: 11317 From: jim heckard Date: 8/4/2009
Subject: Fw: FAMOCO GG_1
Group: vintageHO Message: 11318 From: jim heckard Date: 8/4/2009
Subject: FAMOCO GG-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 11319 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/4/2009
Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 11320 From: Tom Date: 8/4/2009
Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 11321 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: ebay item ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 11322 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: Re: ebay item ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 11323 From: jim heckard Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: Re: ebay item ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 11324 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11325 From: nvrr49 Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: Re: ebay item ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 11326 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: Re: ebay item ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 11327 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11328 From: jim heckard Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: can't deny but
Group: vintageHO Message: 11329 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: Re: can't deny but [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11330 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: Re: can't deny but [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11331 From: jim heckard Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: Re: can't deny but
Group: vintageHO Message: 11332 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: Re: ebay item ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 11333 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: Re: ebay item ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 11334 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: Re: can't deny but [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11335 From: jim heckard Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: Re: ebay item ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 11336 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: Re: ebay item ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 11337 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: Re: ebay item ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 11338 From: Nelson Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery GG1
Group: vintageHO Message: 11339 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/5/2009
Subject: Re: ebay item ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 11340 From: Nelson Date: 8/6/2009
Subject: Re: can't deny but
Group: vintageHO Message: 11341 From: Nelson Date: 8/6/2009
Subject: Re: can't deny but
Group: vintageHO Message: 11342 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/6/2009
Subject: Re: can't deny but
Group: vintageHO Message: 11343 From: jim heckard Date: 8/6/2009
Subject: Re: can't deny but
Group: vintageHO Message: 11344 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 8/6/2009
Subject: Selling vintage kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 11345 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/6/2009
Subject: Re: Selling vintage kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 11346 From: Brent Buckley Date: 8/6/2009
Subject: Re: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 4-6-0 Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 11347 From: Rick Jones Date: 8/6/2009
Subject: Re: Selling vintage kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 11348 From: curmudgeon Date: 8/6/2009
Subject: Re: Selling vintage kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 11349 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 8/6/2009
Subject: Re: Selling vintage kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 11350 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/7/2009
Subject: Re: Selling vintage kits - philosophical dilemma!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11351 From: Mike Date: 8/7/2009
Subject: Detailing a Varney Docksider
Group: vintageHO Message: 11352 From: jim heckard Date: 8/7/2009
Subject: Re: Detailing a Varney Docksider
Group: vintageHO Message: 11353 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 8/7/2009
Subject: Re: Three "Special" Red Ball Work Cars [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11354 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 8/7/2009
Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1 [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11355 From: jim heckard Date: 8/7/2009
Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 11356 From: jim heckard Date: 8/7/2009
Subject: motor wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 11357 From: Richard White Date: 8/7/2009
Subject: Re: Selling vintage kits - philosophical dilemma!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11358 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/7/2009
Subject: Re: Detailing a Varney Docksider
Group: vintageHO Message: 11359 From: Nelson Date: 8/7/2009
Subject: Re: can't deny but
Group: vintageHO Message: 11360 From: jim heckard Date: 8/7/2009
Subject: Re: can't deny but
Group: vintageHO Message: 11361 From: mohoghead77 Date: 8/7/2009
Subject: Help with Rivarossi and Intro as new member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11362 From: Tom Hare Date: 8/7/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery GG1
Group: vintageHO Message: 11363 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: Question on Athearn Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 11364 From: jim heckard Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: Re: Question on Athearn Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 11365 From: Brent Buckley Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 11366 From: Brent Buckley Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 11367 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: Re: Question on Athearn Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 11368 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: Re: Question on Athearn Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 11369 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: Re: Help with Rivarossi and Intro as new member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11370 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: Re: Help with Rivarossi and Intro as new member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11371 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: Re: Selling vintage kits - philosophical dilemma!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11372 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: Re: Help with Rivarossi and Intro as new member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11373 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: Re: Help with Rivarossi and Intro as new member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11374 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: Re: Question on Athearn Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 11375 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: Re: Question on Athearn Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 11376 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: Re: Question on Athearn Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 11377 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: Re: Question on Athearn Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 11378 From: jim heckard Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: Athearn / Lionel Virginian Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 11379 From: jim heckard Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: elongated electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 11380 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: Re: elongated electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 11381 From: mohoghead77 Date: 8/8/2009
Subject: Re: Help with Rivarossi and Intro as new member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11382 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 8/9/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn / Lionel Virginian Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 11383 From: jim heckard Date: 8/9/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn / Lionel Virginian Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 11384 From: Wobbly913 Date: 8/9/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn / Lionel Virginian Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 11385 From: Nelson Date: 8/10/2009
Subject: Re: Help with Rivarossi and Intro as new member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11386 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/10/2009
Subject: Re: Help with Rivarossi and Intro as new member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11387 From: jim heckard Date: 8/10/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn / Lionel Virginian Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 11388 From: Mike Date: 8/10/2009
Subject: Need Some HO Help
Group: vintageHO Message: 11389 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 8/10/2009
Subject: Lionel/Virginian rectifier electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 11390 From: Nelson Date: 8/11/2009
Subject: Re: Help with Rivarossi and Intro as new member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11391 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 8/12/2009
Subject: Strange AC Gilbert Hudson
Group: vintageHO Message: 11392 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 8/12/2009
Subject: Re: Strange AC Gilbert Hudson [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11393 From: jim heckard Date: 8/12/2009
Subject: Re: Strange AC Gilbert Hudson [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11394 From: jim heckard Date: 8/12/2009
Subject: Re: Strange AC Gilbert Hudson
Group: vintageHO Message: 11395 From: jim heckard Date: 8/12/2009
Subject: odd engine / motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 11396 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 8/12/2009
Subject: Re: odd engine / motor [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11397 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 8/12/2009
Subject: how do U all handle new, vintage acquisitions? (cosmetic, etc.)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11398 From: jim heckard Date: 8/12/2009
Subject: Re: odd engine / motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 11399 From: jim heckard Date: 8/12/2009
Subject: Re: how do U all handle new, vintage acquisitions? (cosmetic, etc.)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11400 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 8/12/2009
Subject: Re: how do U all handle new, vintage acquisitions? (cosmetic, etc.)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11401 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 8/12/2009
Subject: Re: odd engine / motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 11402 From: jim heckard Date: 8/12/2009
Subject: Re: odd engine / motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 11403 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 8/12/2009
Subject: Re: how do U all handle new, vintage acquisitions? (cosmetic, etc.)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11404 From: George Frey Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: newbie and a Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11405 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Re: newbie and a Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11406 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Gondola id help
Group: vintageHO Message: 11407 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Re: Gondola id help
Group: vintageHO Message: 11408 From: George Frey Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Re: Gondola id help
Group: vintageHO Message: 11409 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Re: Gondola id help
Group: vintageHO Message: 11410 From: George Frey Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Re: Gondola id help
Group: vintageHO Message: 11411 From: curmudgeon Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Re: Gondola id help
Group: vintageHO Message: 11412 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Re: Gondola id help
Group: vintageHO Message: 11413 From: Riverboy Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Re: Gondola id help
Group: vintageHO Message: 11414 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Re: Gondola id help
Group: vintageHO Message: 11415 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Re: newbie and a Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11416 From: George Frey Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Re: newbie and a Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11417 From: jim heckard Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Re: Gondola id help
Group: vintageHO Message: 11418 From: jim heckard Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Re: Gondola id help
Group: vintageHO Message: 11419 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Re: Gondola id help
Group: vintageHO Message: 11420 From: mohoghead77 Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Casey Jones _Varney or Rivarossi???
Group: vintageHO Message: 11421 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Re: newbie and a Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11422 From: George Frey Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Re: newbie and a Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11423 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 8/13/2009
Subject: Re: Gondola id help
Group: vintageHO Message: 11424 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/14/2009
Subject: Re: Casey Jones _Varney or Rivarossi???
Group: vintageHO Message: 11425 From: Mike Bauers Date: 8/14/2009
Subject: Re: Casey Jones _Varney or Rivarossi???
Group: vintageHO Message: 11426 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/14/2009
Subject: Re: Gondola id help
Group: vintageHO Message: 11427 From: John Hagen Date: 8/14/2009
Subject: Re: Casey Jones _Varney or Rivarossi???
Group: vintageHO Message: 11428 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 8/15/2009
Subject: Chain guards on a Pullman
Group: vintageHO Message: 11429 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/15/2009
Subject: Re: Chain guards on a Pullman
Group: vintageHO Message: 11430 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/15/2009
Subject: Re: Chain guards on a Pullman
Group: vintageHO Message: 11431 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 8/15/2009
Subject: Re: Chain guards on a Pullman [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11432 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 8/15/2009
Subject: Re: Casey Jones _Varney or Rivarossi???
Group: vintageHO Message: 11433 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/15/2009
Subject: Re: Casey Jones _Varney or Rivarossi???
Group: vintageHO Message: 11434 From: George Frey Date: 8/16/2009
Subject: are they any good
Group: vintageHO Message: 11435 From: erieberk Date: 8/17/2009
Subject: Re: are they any good
Group: vintageHO Message: 11436 From: jim heckard Date: 8/17/2009
Subject: Re: are they any good
Group: vintageHO Message: 11437 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/17/2009
Subject: Re: MarX HO: "Are they any good?"
Group: vintageHO Message: 11438 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 8/17/2009
Subject: Re: are they any good
Group: vintageHO Message: 11439 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 8/17/2009
Subject: Re: MarX HO: "Are they any good?"
Group: vintageHO Message: 11440 From: jim heckard Date: 8/17/2009
Subject: Re: are they any good
Group: vintageHO Message: 11441 From: jim heckard Date: 8/17/2009
Subject: Marx Erie items
Group: vintageHO Message: 11442 From: frank Date: 8/17/2009
Subject: RE on Marx cars, are they any good.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11443 From: jim heckard Date: 8/17/2009
Subject: Re: RE on Marx cars, are they any good.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11444 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/18/2009
Subject: Re: Marx Erie items
Group: vintageHO Message: 11445 From: jim heckard Date: 8/18/2009
Subject: .Marx HO, Retro Layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 11446 From: Brent Buckley Date: 8/18/2009
Subject: Kadee to a Mantua Plymouth Yard Diesel ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11447 From: grassball2003 Date: 8/18/2009
Subject: Walthers Silver Springs Bus Station Picture Needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 11448 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 8/19/2009
Subject: Pullman car numbers
Group: vintageHO Message: 11449 From: Nelson Date: 8/19/2009
Subject: Re: Kadee to a Mantua Plymouth Yard Diesel ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11450 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 8/19/2009
Subject: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
Group: vintageHO Message: 11451 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 8/19/2009
Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
Group: vintageHO Message: 11452 From: sean naylor Date: 8/19/2009
Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
Group: vintageHO Message: 11453 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 8/19/2009
Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
Group: vintageHO Message: 11454 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/19/2009
Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
Group: vintageHO Message: 11455 From: jim heckard Date: 8/19/2009
Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
Group: vintageHO Message: 11456 From: jim heckard Date: 8/19/2009
Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
Group: vintageHO Message: 11457 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 8/19/2009
Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
Group: vintageHO Message: 11458 From: jim heckard Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Varney prewar Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 11459 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific [6 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11460 From: jim heckard Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 11461 From: jim heckard Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Trailing truck ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 11462 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: Trailing truck ID [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11463 From: greenbrier614 Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
Group: vintageHO Message: 11464 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
Group: vintageHO Message: 11465 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: sad Varney Pacific: resolution..
Group: vintageHO Message: 11466 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific [6 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11467 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: Trailing truck ID [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11468 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: Trailing truck ID [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11469 From: jim heckard Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: Trailing truck ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 11470 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
Group: vintageHO Message: 11471 From: toptrain2100 Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: New project photos added.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11472 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: sad Varney Pacific: resolution..
Group: vintageHO Message: 11473 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
Group: vintageHO Message: 11474 From: jim heckard Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: sad Varney Pacific: resolution..
Group: vintageHO Message: 11475 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
Group: vintageHO Message: 11476 From: jim heckard Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: New project photos added.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11477 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: sad Varney Pacific: resolution..
Group: vintageHO Message: 11478 From: jim heckard Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: Trailing truck ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 11479 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: sad Varney Pacific: resolution..
Group: vintageHO Message: 11480 From: jim heckard Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: little subject change
Group: vintageHO Message: 11481 From: Mike Bauers Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: New project photos added.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11482 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: New project photos added.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11483 From: Denny Anspach Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 11484 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 8/20/2009
Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific-progress
Group: vintageHO Message: 11485 From: Mike Bauers Date: 8/21/2009
Subject: Re: New project photos added.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11486 From: jim heckard Date: 8/21/2009
Subject: Re: New project photos added.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11487 From: sprinthag Date: 8/21/2009
Subject: Re: New project photos added.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11488 From: Denny Anspach Date: 8/21/2009
Subject: Re: New project photos added.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11489 From: toptrain2100 Date: 8/21/2009
Subject: Re: New project photos added.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11490 From: jim heckard Date: 8/21/2009
Subject: Re: New project photos added.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11491 From: Mike Bauers Date: 8/21/2009
Subject: Re: New project photos added.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11492 From: jim heckard Date: 8/21/2009
Subject: Hand made Crusader
Group: vintageHO Message: 11493 From: jim heckard Date: 8/21/2009
Subject: questions about the B&O streamlined body
Group: vintageHO Message: 11494 From: Mike Bauers Date: 8/21/2009
Subject: Re: Hand made Crusader [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11495 From: jim heckard Date: 8/21/2009
Subject: more hand made pics
Group: vintageHO Message: 11496 From: jim heckard Date: 8/21/2009
Subject: hand made
Group: vintageHO Message: 11497 From: CinderCrusher Date: 8/21/2009
Subject: Re: New project photos added.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11498 From: John Barlow Date: 8/21/2009
Subject: Re: Hand made Crusader [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11499 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/21/2009
Subject: Re: New project photos added.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11500 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/21/2009
Subject: Re: questions about the B&O streamlined body
Group: vintageHO Message: 11501 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Re: New project photos added.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11502 From: Mike Bauers Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Re: New project photos added.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11503 From: jim heckard Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Re: questions about the B&O streamlined body
Group: vintageHO Message: 11504 From: Mary Long Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Re: questions about the B&O streamlined body
Group: vintageHO Message: 11505 From: Garry Spear Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Question about Varney Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 11506 From: sprinthag Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Re: Question about Varney Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 11507 From: jim heckard Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Re: Question about Varney Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 11508 From: jim heckard Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: unknown trailing truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 11509 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Re: Question about Varney Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 11510 From: jim heckard Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Varney Aero Train Windshield
Group: vintageHO Message: 11511 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Re: Question about Varney Aerotrain
Group: vintageHO Message: 11512 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Re: Hand made Crusader [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11513 From: jim heckard Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Varney Streamlined Tender
Group: vintageHO Message: 11514 From: jim heckard Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Re: Hand made Crusader
Group: vintageHO Message: 11515 From: jim heckard Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: PL Crusader construction
Group: vintageHO Message: 11516 From: Denny Anspach Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Re: New project photos added.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11517 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Steeamlined boilers
Group: vintageHO Message: 11518 From: jim heckard Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Re: Steeamlined boilers
Group: vintageHO Message: 11519 From: Mike Bauers Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Re: Steeamlined boilers
Group: vintageHO Message: 11520 From: Jim Waterman Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: more hand made pics
Group: vintageHO Message: 11521 From: jim heckard Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Re: Steeamlined boilers
Group: vintageHO Message: 11522 From: jim heckard Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Re: more hand made pics
Group: vintageHO Message: 11523 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Re: unknown trailing truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 11524 From: Mike Bauers Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Re: Steeamlined boilers
Group: vintageHO Message: 11525 From: jim heckard Date: 8/22/2009
Subject: Cincinnatian
Group: vintageHO Message: 11526 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/23/2009
Subject: New Videos
Group: vintageHO Message: 11527 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 8/24/2009
Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test
Group: vintageHO Message: 11528 From: jim heckard Date: 8/25/2009
Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test
Group: vintageHO Message: 11529 From: Mike Bauers Date: 8/25/2009
Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test
Group: vintageHO Message: 11530 From: Mike Bauers Date: 8/25/2009
Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test
Group: vintageHO Message: 11531 From: Denny Anspach Date: 8/25/2009
Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test
Group: vintageHO Message: 11532 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 8/25/2009
Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test
Group: vintageHO Message: 11533 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 8/25/2009
Subject: Challenger question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11534 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/25/2009
Subject: Re: Challenger question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11535 From: jim heckard Date: 8/25/2009
Subject: Re: Challenger question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11536 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 8/25/2009
Subject: Re: Challenger question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11537 From: Wobbly913 Date: 8/25/2009
Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test
Group: vintageHO Message: 11538 From: erieberk Date: 8/25/2009
Subject: Re: Challenger question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11539 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/25/2009
Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test
Group: vintageHO Message: 11540 From: Karl Peters Date: 8/25/2009
Subject: Motor remagnetizing.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11541 From: Wobbly913 Date: 8/25/2009
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing:
Group: vintageHO Message: 11542 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/25/2009
Subject: Re: Motor remagnetizing.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11543 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/25/2009
Subject: Rivarossi/ Pocher/ AHM
Group: vintageHO Message: 11544 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11545 From: sprinthag Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11546 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11547 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11548 From: Ray Hobin Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Re-magnetizer.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11549 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11550 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11551 From: Roger Aultman Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Fw: [vintageHO] Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11552 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11553 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11554 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11555 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11556 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11557 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11558 From: jim heckard Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: unknown passenger & my Pugs
Group: vintageHO Message: 11559 From: Russ Shiel Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Re: unknown passenger
Group: vintageHO Message: 11560 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Re: Fw: [vintageHO] Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11561 From: jbark76 Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Re: Motor remagnetizing.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11562 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Re: unknown passenger
Group: vintageHO Message: 11563 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 8/26/2009
Subject: Re: Motor remagnetizing.- Karl/Glenn?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11564 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/27/2009
Subject: Tenshodo passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11565 From: orangetrainman33 Date: 8/27/2009
Subject: Wanted to buy
Group: vintageHO Message: 11566 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/27/2009
Subject: Re: Tenshodo passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11567 From: Denny Anspach Date: 8/27/2009
Subject: Re-magnetizer.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11568 From: Denny Anspach Date: 8/27/2009
Subject: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11569 From: jbark76 Date: 8/27/2009
Subject: Re-magnetizer.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11570 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/27/2009
Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11571 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/27/2009
Subject: Re: Re-magnetizer.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11572 From: Denny Anspach Date: 8/28/2009
Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11573 From: jim heckard Date: 8/28/2009
Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11574 From: mrrwarehouse Date: 8/29/2009
Subject: Heritage Red Ball Line Being Sold
Group: vintageHO Message: 11575 From: Denny Anspach Date: 8/29/2009
Subject: Diversity of interests
Group: vintageHO Message: 11576 From: jim heckard Date: 8/29/2009
Subject: Re: Diversity of interests
Group: vintageHO Message: 11577 From: jim heckard Date: 8/29/2009
Subject: opt out
Group: vintageHO Message: 11578 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/29/2009
Subject: Re: opt out
Group: vintageHO Message: 11579 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 8/29/2009
Subject: Re: opt out
Group: vintageHO Message: 11580 From: sprinthag Date: 8/29/2009
Subject: Re: opt out
Group: vintageHO Message: 11581 From: Wobbly913 Date: 8/29/2009
Subject: Re: opt out
Group: vintageHO Message: 11582 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/29/2009
Subject: Re: opt out
Group: vintageHO Message: 11583 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/29/2009
Subject: Re: opt out
Group: vintageHO Message: 11584 From: Walter Bayer Date: 8/29/2009
Subject: Re: opt out
Group: vintageHO Message: 11585 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 8/29/2009
Subject: Re: opt out
Group: vintageHO Message: 11586 From: jim heckard Date: 8/30/2009
Subject: change
Group: vintageHO Message: 11587 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/30/2009
Subject: Re: change
Group: vintageHO Message: 11588 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 8/30/2009
Subject: Re: change
Group: vintageHO Message: 11589 From: Askerberg Date: 8/30/2009
Subject: Heritage Red Ball Line Being Sold
Group: vintageHO Message: 11590 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/31/2009
Subject: Re: Heritage Red Ball Line Being Sold
Group: vintageHO Message: 11591 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/31/2009
Subject: Red Ball Artist "Casey" Holtzinger
Group: vintageHO Message: 11593 From: John Barlow Date: 8/31/2009
Subject: Re: Heritage Red Ball Line Being Sold
Group: vintageHO Message: 11594 From: jim heckard Date: 8/31/2009
Subject: Different thoughts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11595 From: Rick Jones Date: 8/31/2009
Subject: Re: Different thoughts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11596 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/31/2009
Subject: Re: Different thoughts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11597 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/31/2009
Subject: Re: Different thoughts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11598 From: wildwoodjct Date: 8/31/2009
Subject: Mantua kits 1950s
Group: vintageHO Message: 11599 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/31/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua kits 1950s
Group: vintageHO Message: 11600 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/31/2009
Subject: Re: Different thoughts - "The List"
Group: vintageHO Message: 11601 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/31/2009
Subject: Re: Different thoughts - "The List"
Group: vintageHO Message: 11602 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 8/31/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua kits 1950s
Group: vintageHO Message: 11603 From: jim heckard Date: 9/1/2009
Subject: Could be the same
Group: vintageHO Message: 11604 From: docles1 Date: 9/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua kits 1950s
Group: vintageHO Message: 11605 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/1/2009
Subject: Re: Could be the same
Group: vintageHO Message: 11606 From: jim heckard Date: 9/1/2009
Subject: searching for parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 11607 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/1/2009
Subject: Re: Could be the same [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11608 From: jim heckard Date: 9/1/2009
Subject: JaquesnotJaques information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11609 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/1/2009
Subject: Re: Could be the same
Group: vintageHO Message: 11610 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 9/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua kits 1950s
Group: vintageHO Message: 11611 From: jim heckard Date: 9/1/2009
Subject: Re: Could be the same
Group: vintageHO Message: 11612 From: jim heckard Date: 9/2/2009
Subject: latest project
Group: vintageHO Message: 11613 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/2/2009
Subject: Re: latest project [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11614 From: jim heckard Date: 9/2/2009
Subject: unknown GG-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 11615 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/2/2009
Subject: Re: latest project [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11616 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/2/2009
Subject: Re: unknown GG-1 [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11617 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 9/2/2009
Subject: Re: latest project [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11618 From: raymarinaccio Date: 9/3/2009
Subject: bolster height of Varney 6 wheel tender trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 11619 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 9/4/2009
Subject: Old magazines on Ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 11620 From: Garry Spear Date: 9/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Old magazines on Ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 11621 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/4/2009
Subject: find
Group: vintageHO Message: 11622 From: shentonw@bellsouth.net Date: 9/4/2009
Subject: WTB - Rivarossi 4-4-0 Reno light bulb
Group: vintageHO Message: 11623 From: Thomas Parsons Date: 9/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Old magazines on Ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 11624 From: Thomas Parsons Date: 9/4/2009
Subject: Re: Old magazines on Ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 11625 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/5/2009
Subject: Re: Old magazines on Ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 11626 From: nvrr49 Date: 9/5/2009
Subject: Re: Old magazines on Ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 11627 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 9/5/2009
Subject: Re: WTB - Rivarossi 4-4-0 Reno light bulb
Group: vintageHO Message: 11628 From: jim heckard Date: 9/6/2009
Subject: information wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 11629 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/6/2009
Subject: Re: information wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 11630 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/6/2009
Subject: Re: information wanted [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11631 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/6/2009
Subject: Re: information wanted [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11632 From: jim heckard Date: 9/6/2009
Subject: Re: information wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 11633 From: jim heckard Date: 9/6/2009
Subject: Walthers info
Group: vintageHO Message: 11634 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/6/2009
Subject: Re: Walthers info
Group: vintageHO Message: 11635 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/7/2009
Subject: Re: information wanted [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11636 From: jim heckard Date: 9/7/2009
Subject: Re: information wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 11637 From: dlw455 Date: 9/7/2009
Subject: Atheran Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11638 From: Denny Anspach Date: 9/7/2009
Subject: Walthers Taylor-Baltic 4-6-4. Was: information wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 11639 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/7/2009
Subject: Re: information wanted: Walthers MILW Baltic
Group: vintageHO Message: 11640 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/7/2009
Subject: Re: Walthers Taylor-Baltic 4-6-4. Was: information wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 11641 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 9/7/2009
Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11642 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 9/7/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 11643 From: jay matz Date: 9/7/2009
Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11644 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 9/7/2009
Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11645 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/7/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11646 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/7/2009
Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11647 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 9/7/2009
Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11648 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/7/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11649 From: jay matz Date: 9/7/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11650 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/7/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11651 From: jay matz Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11652 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Early use of Plastics, and more -was WKW Baltic
Group: vintageHO Message: 11653 From: jim heckard Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: H Owen K-4 Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 11654 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11655 From: a69mustang4me Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11656 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11657 From: Chris B Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11658 From: erieberk Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: H. Owen (?), was - Early use of Plastics, and more -was WKW Balt
Group: vintageHO Message: 11659 From: jay matz Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11660 From: Gary Woodard Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11661 From: erieberk Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11662 From: erieberk Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11663 From: erieberk Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11664 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11665 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11666 From: Don Dellmann Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11667 From: Don Dellmann Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11668 From: Don Dellmann Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11669 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11670 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 11671 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11672 From: Garry Spear Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11673 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: H. Owen (?), was - Early use of Plastics, and more -was WKW Balt
Group: vintageHO Message: 11674 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
Group: vintageHO Message: 11675 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
Group: vintageHO Message: 11676 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/8/2009
Subject: Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
Group: vintageHO Message: 11677 From: erieberk Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11678 From: erieberk Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 11679 From: erieberk Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11680 From: erieberk Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: H. Owen (?), was - Early use of Plastics, and more -was WKW Balt
Group: vintageHO Message: 11681 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
Group: vintageHO Message: 11682 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose. [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11683 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose. [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11684 From: Denny Anspach Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
Group: vintageHO Message: 11685 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Early Use of Plastic was Baltic & Red Ball
Group: vintageHO Message: 11686 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
Group: vintageHO Message: 11687 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
Group: vintageHO Message: 11688 From: Garry Spear Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Tank - Cars More Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11689 From: corlissbs Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11690 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11691 From: jim heckard Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11692 From: Wobbly913 Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11693 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11694 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Tank - Cars More Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11695 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Tank - Cars More Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11696 From: sprinthag Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11697 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: Early Use of Plastic was Baltic & Red Ball
Group: vintageHO Message: 11698 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
Group: vintageHO Message: 11699 From: George Frey Date: 9/9/2009
Subject: Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
Group: vintageHO Message: 11700 From: jim heckard Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: do you know
Group: vintageHO Message: 11701 From: corlissbs Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11702 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11703 From: corlissbs Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: Atlas Turbo Express
Group: vintageHO Message: 11704 From: oljoe@bex.net Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11705 From: Don Dellmann Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11706 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11707 From: Roger Aultman Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: Re: Atlas Turbo Express
Group: vintageHO Message: 11708 From: toptrain2100 Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11709 From: Mike Bauers Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: Re: Atlas Turbo Express
Group: vintageHO Message: 11710 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11711 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: Märklin H0
Group: vintageHO Message: 11712 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11713 From: Don Dellmann Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11714 From: Don Dellmann Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Märklin H0
Group: vintageHO Message: 11715 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: Re: Märklin H0
Group: vintageHO Message: 11716 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11717 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: Re: Atlas Turbo Express
Group: vintageHO Message: 11718 From: orangetrainman33 Date: 9/10/2009
Subject: thanks and new question RE Train Minatures
Group: vintageHO Message: 11719 From: George Frey Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: thanks and new question RE Train Minatures
Group: vintageHO Message: 11720 From: oljoe@bex.net Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11721 From: Don Dellmann Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: thanks and new question RE Train Minatures
Group: vintageHO Message: 11722 From: larry_l_doub Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11723 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11724 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11725 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11726 From: sprinthag Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11727 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11728 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11729 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11730 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11731 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11732 From: corlissbs Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Added A Photo Album
Group: vintageHO Message: 11733 From: Wobbly913 Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: Added A Photo Album
Group: vintageHO Message: 11734 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: Added A Photo Album
Group: vintageHO Message: 11735 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11736 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Varney Streamlined Hudson Project by toptrain2100
Group: vintageHO Message: 11737 From: jim heckard Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: Added A Photo Album
Group: vintageHO Message: 11738 From: Don Dellmann Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11739 From: Don Dellmann Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: Added A Photo Album
Group: vintageHO Message: 11740 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11741 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11742 From: corlissbs Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11743 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11744 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11745 From: sprinthag Date: 9/12/2009
Subject: Re: Early Diesel Drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 11746 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 9/12/2009
Subject: Re: Added A Photo Album
Group: vintageHO Message: 11747 From: Denny Anspach Date: 9/12/2009
Subject: Varney Streamlined Hudson Project by toptrain2100
Group: vintageHO Message: 11748 From: jim heckard Date: 9/12/2009
Subject: project progress
Group: vintageHO Message: 11749 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 9/12/2009
Subject: Cox HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 11750 From: Wobbly913 Date: 9/12/2009
Subject: Re: Cox HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 11751 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 9/12/2009
Subject: Re: Added A Photo Album
Group: vintageHO Message: 11752 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/12/2009
Subject: Cast White Metal Alco S2 1000hp Switcher ID Needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 11753 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 9/12/2009
Subject: Re: Cox HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 11754 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/13/2009
Subject: Re: "Modern Models" Cast White Metal Alco S2 1000hp Switcher?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11755 From: jim heckard Date: 9/13/2009
Subject: Re: Cast White Metal Alco S2 1000hp Switcher ID Needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 11756 From: jim heckard Date: 9/13/2009
Subject: Re: "Modern Models" Cast White Metal Alco S2 1000hp Switcher?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11757 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/13/2009
Subject: Re: "Modern Models" Cast White Metal Alco S2 1000hp Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 11758 From: Jim Waterman Date: 9/13/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11759 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 9/13/2009
Subject: Re: New Member
Group: vintageHO Message: 11760 From: corlissbs Date: 9/15/2009
Subject: Rosko Train Set Photo
Group: vintageHO Message: 11761 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/15/2009
Subject: Re: Rosko Train Set Photo
Group: vintageHO Message: 11762 From: sprinthag Date: 9/15/2009
Subject: Re: Rosko Train Set Photo
Group: vintageHO Message: 11763 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/15/2009
Subject: Re: Rosko Train Set Photo
Group: vintageHO Message: 11764 From: corlissbs Date: 9/15/2009
Subject: Turbo Express Progress
Group: vintageHO Message: 11765 From: Don Dellmann Date: 9/15/2009
Subject: Re: Rosko Train Set Photo
Group: vintageHO Message: 11766 From: Mike Bauers Date: 9/15/2009
Subject: Re: Turbo Express Progress
Group: vintageHO Message: 11767 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 9/16/2009
Subject: Re: Turbo Express Progress
Group: vintageHO Message: 11768 From: jim heckard Date: 9/17/2009
Subject: trying again
Group: vintageHO Message: 11769 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/17/2009
Subject: Re: trying again
Group: vintageHO Message: 11770 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 9/17/2009
Subject: Turbo/Prop
Group: vintageHO Message: 11771 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 9/17/2009
Subject: Re: Turbo/Prop
Group: vintageHO Message: 11772 From: Don Dellmann Date: 9/17/2009
Subject: Re: Turbo/Prop
Group: vintageHO Message: 11773 From: rrdrigg Date: 9/18/2009
Subject: Rivarossi 4-6-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 11774 From: Chris B Date: 9/18/2009
Subject: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - castings on
Group: vintageHO Message: 11775 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/18/2009
Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
Group: vintageHO Message: 11776 From: corlissbs Date: 9/18/2009
Subject: Athearn Hustler Repower
Group: vintageHO Message: 11777 From: jim heckard Date: 9/18/2009
Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
Group: vintageHO Message: 11778 From: Chris B Date: 9/18/2009
Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
Group: vintageHO Message: 11779 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/18/2009
Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
Group: vintageHO Message: 11780 From: Mike Bauers Date: 9/18/2009
Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
Group: vintageHO Message: 11781 From: Chris B Date: 9/18/2009
Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
Group: vintageHO Message: 11782 From: Chris B Date: 9/18/2009
Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
Group: vintageHO Message: 11783 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/18/2009
Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
Group: vintageHO Message: 11784 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/19/2009
Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
Group: vintageHO Message: 11785 From: jim heckard Date: 9/19/2009
Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
Group: vintageHO Message: 11786 From: jim heckard Date: 9/19/2009
Subject: GARCO Baldwin pictures
Group: vintageHO Message: 11787 From: Chris B Date: 9/19/2009
Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
Group: vintageHO Message: 11788 From: jim heckard Date: 9/19/2009
Subject: your vintage layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 11789 From: chrisb_acw_rr Date: 9/19/2009
Subject: Re: your vintage layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 11790 From: Chris B Date: 9/19/2009
Subject: Re: your vintage layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 11791 From: jim heckard Date: 9/19/2009
Subject: Re: your vintage layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 11792 From: Chris B Date: 9/19/2009
Subject: Re: your vintage layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 11793 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 9/19/2009
Subject: Re: GARCO Baldwin pictures [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11794 From: Chris B Date: 9/19/2009
Subject: Re: GARCO Baldwin pictures
Group: vintageHO Message: 11795 From: Mike Bauers Date: 9/19/2009
Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
Group: vintageHO Message: 11796 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 9/19/2009
Subject: Re: GARCO Baldwin pictures
Group: vintageHO Message: 11797 From: Chris B Date: 9/19/2009
Subject: Re: GARCO Baldwin pictures
Group: vintageHO Message: 11798 From: rrdrigg Date: 9/19/2009
Subject: Rivarossi 4-6-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 11799 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 9/19/2009
Subject: Brass Alternating Current Steeplecab Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 11800 From: Mike Bauers Date: 9/19/2009
Subject: Re: Brass Alternating Current Steeplecab Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 11801 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/19/2009
Subject: Re: Brass Alternating Current Steeplecab Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 11802 From: stephen anderson Date: 9/20/2009
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1727[3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11803 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 9/20/2009
Subject: Re: Brass Alternating Current Steeplecab Locomotive
Group: vintageHO Message: 11804 From: jim heckard Date: 9/20/2009
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 4-6-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 11805 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 9/20/2009
Subject: more Japanese Electrics
Group: vintageHO Message: 11806 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 9/20/2009
Subject: Brass Locomotive Photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 11807 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 9/20/2009
Subject: Re: Brass Locomotive Photos [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11808 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/20/2009
Subject: Re: Brass Locomotive Photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 11809 From: jim heckard Date: 9/20/2009
Subject: Odd Brass Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 11810 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/20/2009
Subject: Re: Garrett-GARCO Baldwins; Custom Model Railways & Early Flywheel D
Group: vintageHO Message: 11811 From: jim heckard Date: 9/20/2009
Subject: Re: Garrett-GARCO Baldwins; Custom Model Railways & Early Flywheel D
Group: vintageHO Message: 11812 From: Chris B Date: 9/20/2009
Subject: Re: Garrett-GARCO Baldwins; Custom Model Railways & Early Flywheel D
Group: vintageHO Message: 11813 From: Mike Bauers Date: 9/20/2009
Subject: Re: Brass Alternating Current Steeplecab Locomotive [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11814 From: 69_Mustang_Man Date: 9/20/2009
Subject: Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay or
Group: vintageHO Message: 11815 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/20/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay
Group: vintageHO Message: 11816 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 9/20/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay
Group: vintageHO Message: 11817 From: Mike Bauers Date: 9/20/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay
Group: vintageHO Message: 11818 From: Denny Anspach Date: 9/21/2009
Subject: Japanese Electrics
Group: vintageHO Message: 11819 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/21/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay
Group: vintageHO Message: 11820 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/21/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay
Group: vintageHO Message: 11821 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/21/2009
Subject: cross-list question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11822 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 9/21/2009
Subject: Re: cross-list question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11823 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 9/21/2009
Subject: Re: cross-list question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11824 From: Riverboy Date: 9/21/2009
Subject: Re: cross-list question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11825 From: Mike Bauers Date: 9/21/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay
Group: vintageHO Message: 11826 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/21/2009
Subject: Re: cross-list question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11827 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/21/2009
Subject: Re: cross-list question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11828 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/21/2009
Subject: Re: cross-list question - Red Ball Pay Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 11829 From: Riverboy Date: 9/21/2009
Subject: Re: cross-list question - Red Ball Pay Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 11830 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/21/2009
Subject: Re: cross-list question - Red Ball Pay Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 11831 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/21/2009
Subject: Re: cross-list question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11832 From: Mr Larry Doub Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11833 From: jay matz Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11834 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11835 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: Re: eBay listed (John English) 4-6-2? // Parts Source - "Yardbird Tr
Group: vintageHO Message: 11836 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11837 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11838 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11839 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: Red Ball Pay Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 11840 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Pay Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 11841 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11842 From: jim heckard Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: looking for
Group: vintageHO Message: 11843 From: Don Dellmann Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Pay Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 11844 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Pay Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 11845 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Pay Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 11846 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11847 From: still just frank Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11848 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball - Binkley was Pay Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 11849 From: orangetrainman Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: information please
Group: vintageHO Message: 11850 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/22/2009
Subject: Re: information please
Group: vintageHO Message: 11851 From: Don Dellmann Date: 9/23/2009
Subject: Re: information please
Group: vintageHO Message: 11852 From: Mike Sloane Date: 9/23/2009
Subject: Re: information please
Group: vintageHO Message: 11853 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/23/2009
Subject: Re: information please
Group: vintageHO Message: 11854 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/23/2009
Subject: Re: information please
Group: vintageHO Message: 11855 From: Mr Larry Doub Date: 9/23/2009
Subject: Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 11856 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 9/23/2009
Subject: Red Ball Parts was Paycars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11857 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 9/24/2009
Subject: Chester Streamliner
Group: vintageHO Message: 11858 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 9/24/2009
Subject: Red Ball Leigh Valley Well Hole Flat
Group: vintageHO Message: 11859 From: jim heckard Date: 9/24/2009
Subject: Re: Chester Streamliner [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11860 From: jim heckard Date: 9/24/2009
Subject: Re: Chester Streamliner [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11861 From: dickybee2000 Date: 9/25/2009
Subject: Ken Kidder baggage cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11862 From: Mike Bauers Date: 9/25/2009
Subject: Re: Chester Streamliner [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11863 From: nvrr49 Date: 9/25/2009
Subject: Re: Chester Streamliner [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11864 From: Mike Bauers Date: 9/25/2009
Subject: Re: Chester Streamliner
Group: vintageHO Message: 11865 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/25/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat, kit# 33, later #4321
Group: vintageHO Message: 11866 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/25/2009
Subject: Re: Ken Kidder baggage cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11867 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 9/25/2009
Subject: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Flat
Group: vintageHO Message: 11868 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/25/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat, kit# 33, later #4321
Group: vintageHO Message: 11869 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 9/25/2009
Subject: Re: Ken Kidder baggage cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11870 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 9/25/2009
Subject: Re: Ken Kidder baggage cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11871 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/25/2009
Subject: Re: Ken Kidder baggage cars [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11872 From: nvrr49 Date: 9/25/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat, kit# 33, later #4321
Group: vintageHO Message: 11873 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/25/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat, kit# 33, later #4321
Group: vintageHO Message: 11874 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/26/2009
Subject: Red Ball Kits w/ Decorated Sides; Early 1950's Elkhart, IN. Operatio
Group: vintageHO Message: 11875 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 9/26/2009
Subject: Re: Chester Streamliner
Group: vintageHO Message: 11876 From: jim heckard Date: 9/26/2009
Subject: Re: Chester Streamliner [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11877 From: jim heckard Date: 9/26/2009
Subject: Chester Passenger Car with correction
Group: vintageHO Message: 11878 From: corlissbs Date: 9/26/2009
Subject: Athearn Ruber Bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 11879 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 9/26/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Ruber Bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 11880 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 9/26/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat, kit# 33, later #4321
Group: vintageHO Message: 11881 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 9/26/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Ruber Bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 11882 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/26/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat, kit# 33, later #4321
Group: vintageHO Message: 11883 From: Don Grant Date: 9/26/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Ruber Bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 11884 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/26/2009
Subject: Prototype Photo Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat, kit# 33,
Group: vintageHO Message: 11885 From: nvrr49 Date: 9/27/2009
Subject: Prototype Photo Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat, kit# 33,
Group: vintageHO Message: 11886 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/27/2009
Subject: Prototype Photo Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat, kit# 33,
Group: vintageHO Message: 11887 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 9/28/2009
Subject: Red Ball Lehigh Valley
Group: vintageHO Message: 11888 From: nvrr49 Date: 9/28/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley
Group: vintageHO Message: 11889 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/28/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley
Group: vintageHO Message: 11890 From: jim heckard Date: 9/28/2009
Subject: Laconia information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11891 From: jim heckard Date: 9/28/2009
Subject: Laconia information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11892 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 9/28/2009
Subject: Ambroid H-16 instructions
Group: vintageHO Message: 11893 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/28/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11894 From: Glenn476 Date: 9/28/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11895 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/28/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11896 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/28/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia's Full Legnth 80' Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11897 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/29/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia information [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11898 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/29/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia's Full Legnth 80' Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11899 From: jim heckard Date: 9/29/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11900 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/29/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia's Full Legnth 80' Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11901 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/29/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11902 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/29/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11903 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/29/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia's Full Legnth 80' Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11904 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/30/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11905 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 9/30/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties
Group: vintageHO Message: 11906 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 9/30/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11907 From: Garry Spear Date: 9/30/2009
Subject: Red Ball - Howell Day Kit No. 175
Group: vintageHO Message: 11908 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 9/30/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11909 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/30/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11910 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/30/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball - Howell Day Kit No. 175
Group: vintageHO Message: 11911 From: Don Dellmann Date: 9/30/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball - Howell Day Kit No. 175
Group: vintageHO Message: 11912 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/1/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball - Howell Day Kit No. 175
Group: vintageHO Message: 11913 From: Jim Waterman Date: 10/1/2009
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties
Group: vintageHO Message: 11914 From: Denny Anspach Date: 10/1/2009
Subject: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11915 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 10/1/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11916 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 10/1/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11917 From: jim heckard Date: 10/1/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11918 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 10/1/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11919 From: jim heckard Date: 10/1/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11920 From: Denny Anspach Date: 10/2/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11921 From: Chris B Date: 10/2/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11922 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/2/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11923 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/2/2009
Subject: Re: Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay
Group: vintageHO Message: 11924 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 10/2/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11925 From: jim heckard Date: 10/2/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11926 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 10/2/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11927 From: Russ Shiel Date: 10/2/2009
Subject: Great Decals!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11928 From: trainliker Date: 10/2/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11929 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 10/2/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11930 From: jim heckard Date: 10/2/2009
Subject: Winton 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11931 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 10/2/2009
Subject: Re: Great Decals!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11932 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/2/2009
Subject: Re: Great Decals!
Group: vintageHO Message: 11933 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/2/2009
Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 11934 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/3/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11935 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/4/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley boxes; Binkley Ringling Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 11936 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/4/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley boxes; Binkley Ringling Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 11937 From: Denny Anspach Date: 10/4/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11938 From: jim heckard Date: 10/4/2009
Subject: still looking for info
Group: vintageHO Message: 11939 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/4/2009
Subject: Re: Binkley boxes; Binkley (Red Ball) Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11940 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/4/2009
Subject: Re: still looking for info
Group: vintageHO Message: 11941 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/4/2009
Subject: Re: still looking for info [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11942 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/4/2009
Subject: Re: Binkley boxes; Binkley (Red Ball) Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11943 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/4/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11944 From: jim heckard Date: 10/4/2009
Subject: Re: still looking for info
Group: vintageHO Message: 11945 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/5/2009
Subject: Re: still looking for info
Group: vintageHO Message: 11946 From: jim heckard Date: 10/5/2009
Subject: Re: still looking for info
Group: vintageHO Message: 11947 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 10/5/2009
Subject: Shell swap
Group: vintageHO Message: 11948 From: jerrygart5 Date: 10/5/2009
Subject: Re: still looking for info
Group: vintageHO Message: 11949 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/5/2009
Subject: Re: Binkley boxes; Binkley (Red Ball) Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 11950 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/5/2009
Subject: Re: still looking for info
Group: vintageHO Message: 11951 From: jim heckard Date: 10/5/2009
Subject: Re: still looking for info
Group: vintageHO Message: 11952 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/5/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11953 From: Mike Bauers Date: 10/5/2009
Subject: Re: Shell swap
Group: vintageHO Message: 11954 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 10/5/2009
Subject: Re: Shell swap
Group: vintageHO Message: 11955 From: corlissbs Date: 10/5/2009
Subject: Aftermarket Bodies For Athearn Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 11956 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/5/2009
Subject: Re: Aftermarket Bodies For Athearn Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 11957 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 10/5/2009
Subject: Re: Aftermarket Bodies For Athearn Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 11958 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/5/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11959 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 10/5/2009
Subject: Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 11960 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/5/2009
Subject: Re: Shell swap - Building Custom Power Frames
Group: vintageHO Message: 11961 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/6/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11962 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/6/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11963 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/6/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11964 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/6/2009
Subject: A bit more on P. Moore & Vintage Traction
Group: vintageHO Message: 11965 From: corlissbs Date: 10/6/2009
Subject: Re: Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 11966 From: jim heckard Date: 10/6/2009
Subject: Pennsylvania Scale Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 11967 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/6/2009
Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Scale Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 11968 From: jim heckard Date: 10/6/2009
Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Scale Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 11969 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/6/2009
Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Scale Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 11970 From: jim heckard Date: 10/6/2009
Subject: Re: Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Photos [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11971 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 10/6/2009
Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Scale Models [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11972 From: jim heckard Date: 10/6/2009
Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Scale Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 11973 From: Mike Bauers Date: 10/6/2009
Subject: New Photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 11974 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/7/2009
Subject: Re: Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Photos [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 11975 From: jim heckard Date: 10/7/2009
Subject: Re: Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 11976 From: RalphB Date: 10/7/2009
Subject: Re: F-M Train Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11977 From: jim heckard Date: 10/7/2009
Subject: Re: F-M Train Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11978 From: Rick Jones Date: 10/7/2009
Subject: Re: F-M Train Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11979 From: jim heckard Date: 10/7/2009
Subject: Re: F-M Train Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11980 From: Walter Bayer Date: 10/7/2009
Subject: Re: F-M Train Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11981 From: Chris B Date: 10/7/2009
Subject: Re: F-M Train Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11982 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 10/7/2009
Subject: Re: A bit more on P. Moore & Vintage Traction
Group: vintageHO Message: 11983 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/7/2009
Subject: Re: F-M Train Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11984 From: Rick Jones Date: 10/7/2009
Subject: Re: F-M Train Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11985 From: RalphB Date: 10/8/2009
Subject: Re: Loco classes and model kits (was F-M Train Masters....)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11986 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/8/2009
Subject: Re: Loco classes and model kits (was F-M Train Masters....)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11987 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/8/2009
Subject: Re: Loco classes and model kits (was F-M Train Masters....)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11988 From: Mike Bauers Date: 10/8/2009
Subject: Re: A bit more on P. Moore & Vintage Traction
Group: vintageHO Message: 11989 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 10/8/2009
Subject: Pennsy Cabin car question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11990 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/9/2009
Subject: Re: Pennsy Cabin car question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11991 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/9/2009
Subject: Re: Pennsy Cabin car question
Group: vintageHO Message: 11992 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/9/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11993 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/9/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11994 From: RalphB Date: 10/9/2009
Subject: Re: Loco classes and model kits (was F-M Train Masters....)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11995 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/9/2009
Subject: Re: Loco classes and model kits (was F-M Train Masters....)
Group: vintageHO Message: 11996 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 10/10/2009
Subject: Rivarossi Allegheny
Group: vintageHO Message: 11997 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/10/2009
Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
Group: vintageHO Message: 11998 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 10/10/2009
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Allegheny
Group: vintageHO Message: 11999 From: jim heckard Date: 10/10/2009
Subject: Varney parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 12000 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 10/10/2009
Subject: Red Ball's 1st Passenger Car was a 80' Streamliner !
Group: vintageHO Message: 12001 From: Jim Waterman Date: 10/10/2009
Subject: Re: Pennsy Cabin car question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12002 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/10/2009
Subject: Re: Varney parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 12003 From: toytrain13 Date: 10/10/2009
Subject: Red Ball Trivia
Group: vintageHO Message: 12004 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/10/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Trivia
Group: vintageHO Message: 12005 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 10/10/2009
Subject: Diesel Classes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12006 From: jim heckard Date: 10/10/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball's 1st Passenger Car was a 80' Streamliner ! [1 Attachme
Group: vintageHO Message: 12007 From: toytrain13 Date: 10/11/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Trivia
Group: vintageHO Message: 12008 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/11/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12009 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/11/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12010 From: toytrain13 Date: 10/11/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12011 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/11/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Trivia
Group: vintageHO Message: 12012 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/11/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball's 1st Passenger Car was a 80' Streamliner ! [1 Attac...
Group: vintageHO Message: 12013 From: mrrwarehouse Date: 10/11/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball's 1st Passenger Car was a 80' Streamliner !
Group: vintageHO Message: 12014 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/12/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12015 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 10/12/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball's 1st Passenger Car was a 80' Streamliner !
Group: vintageHO Message: 12016 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/12/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball's 1st Passenger Car was a 80' Streamliner ! [1 Attac...
Group: vintageHO Message: 12017 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/12/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball's 1st Passenger Car was a 80' Streamliner ! [1 A...
Group: vintageHO Message: 12018 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/12/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball's 1st Passenger Car was a 80' Streamliner ! [1 A...
Group: vintageHO Message: 12019 From: mrrwarehouse Date: 10/13/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12020 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 10/13/2009
Subject: 0-4-0T?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12021 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/13/2009
Subject: Re: 0-4-0T?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12022 From: Glenn476 Date: 10/13/2009
Subject: Re: 0-4-0T?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12023 From: jim heckard Date: 10/13/2009
Subject: Re: 0-4-0T?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12024 From: nvrr49 Date: 10/13/2009
Subject: Re: 0-4-0T?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12025 From: jim heckard Date: 10/13/2009
Subject: info needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 12026 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 10/13/2009
Subject: Re: 0-4-0T?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12027 From: jim heckard Date: 10/13/2009
Subject: Re: 0-4-0T?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12028 From: jim heckard Date: 10/13/2009
Subject: Re: 0-4-0T?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12029 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/13/2009
Subject: Re: info needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 12030 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 10/13/2009
Subject: RED Ball CERA Trailer
Group: vintageHO Message: 12031 From: Richard White Date: 10/13/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12032 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/14/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12033 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/14/2009
Subject: Re: RED Ball CERA Trailer
Group: vintageHO Message: 12034 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 10/14/2009
Subject: October MRH Released
Group: vintageHO Message: 12035 From: tom leen Date: 10/14/2009
Subject: old TYCO powerTrac loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12036 From: mrrwarehouse Date: 10/14/2009
Subject: Re: RED Ball CERA Trailer
Group: vintageHO Message: 12037 From: mrrwarehouse Date: 10/14/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12038 From: Glenn476 Date: 10/14/2009
Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12039 From: Richard White Date: 10/14/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12040 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 10/14/2009
Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12041 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/15/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12042 From: jim heckard Date: 10/15/2009
Subject: any real prototype ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12043 From: corlissbs Date: 10/15/2009
Subject: Re: any real prototype ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12044 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/15/2009
Subject: Re: any real prototype ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12045 From: jim heckard Date: 10/15/2009
Subject: Re: any real prototype ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12046 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/15/2009
Subject: Re: any real prototype ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12047 From: Rick Jones Date: 10/15/2009
Subject: Re: any real prototype ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12048 From: tom leen Date: 10/15/2009
Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12049 From: tom leen Date: 10/15/2009
Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12050 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 10/15/2009
Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12051 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: RED Ball CERA Trailer
Group: vintageHO Message: 12052 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12053 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12054 From: Mike Bauers Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12055 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12056 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: any real prototype ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12057 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: any real prototype ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12058 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12059 From: tom leen Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12060 From: tom leen Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12061 From: tom leen Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12062 From: tom leen Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12063 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12064 From: Mike Bauers Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12065 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12066 From: RalphB Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12067 From: Rick Jones Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12068 From: Mike Bauers Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12069 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12070 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12071 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12072 From: Rick Jones Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12073 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12074 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12075 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12076 From: mrrwarehouse Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12077 From: tom leen Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12078 From: tom leen Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12079 From: morgantownrr Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: any real prototype ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12080 From: Mike Bauers Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12081 From: Mike Bauers Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12082 From: Mike Bauers Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12083 From: wildwoodjct Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Athearn 'Blue Box' kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12084 From: CinderCrusher Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12085 From: Glenn476 Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12086 From: Mike Bauers Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12087 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12088 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12089 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12090 From: tom leen Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12091 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12092 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12093 From: nvrr49 Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Decals was Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12094 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12095 From: George Frey Date: 10/16/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 'Blue Box' kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12096 From: Mr Larry Doub Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 'Blue Box' kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12097 From: Mr Larry Doub Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12098 From: Jim Waterman Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12099 From: Glenn476 Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 'Blue Box' kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12100 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 'Blue Box' kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12101 From: Glenn476 Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn 'Blue Box' kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12102 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12103 From: Mr Larry Doub Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12104 From: still just frank Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: train show East Rutherford New Jersey Oct. 24, 2009
Group: vintageHO Message: 12105 From: ron_tallyho Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12106 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12107 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12108 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12109 From: jim heckard Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12110 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12111 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12112 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12113 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12114 From: Mike Bauers Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12115 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 10/17/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
Group: vintageHO Message: 12116 From: Matthew Date: 10/18/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12117 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 10/18/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12118 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 10/18/2009
Subject: Penn Line drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 12119 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 10/18/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 12120 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 10/18/2009
Subject: Binkley Lancoina history
Group: vintageHO Message: 12121 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/18/2009
Subject: Re: Binkley Lancoina history
Group: vintageHO Message: 12122 From: Mike Bauers Date: 10/19/2009
Subject: Re: Binkley Lancoina history
Group: vintageHO Message: 12123 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/19/2009
Subject: Re: PC Fix, was -- Binkley Lanconia history
Group: vintageHO Message: 12124 From: Mr Larry Doub Date: 10/19/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12125 From: Matthew Date: 10/20/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12126 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 10/20/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12127 From: Glenn476 Date: 10/20/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12128 From: Rick Jones Date: 10/20/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12129 From: Mr Larry Doub Date: 10/20/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12130 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 10/20/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12131 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 10/21/2009
Subject: Athearn`s Blue Boxes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12132 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 10/21/2009
Subject: my blog
Group: vintageHO Message: 12133 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/21/2009
Subject: Re: my blog
Group: vintageHO Message: 12134 From: the_plainsman Date: 10/22/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 12135 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 10/22/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 12136 From: CinderCrusher Date: 10/22/2009
Subject: Re: my blog
Group: vintageHO Message: 12137 From: jim heckard Date: 10/22/2009
Subject: oddity to me ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 12138 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 10/22/2009
Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 12139 From: Mr Larry Doub Date: 10/23/2009
Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 12140 From: nvrr49 Date: 10/23/2009
Subject: Re: my blog
Group: vintageHO Message: 12141 From: Matthew Date: 10/23/2009
Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 12142 From: Rick Jones Date: 10/23/2009
Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 12143 From: trainliker Date: 10/23/2009
Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 12144 From: jim heckard Date: 10/23/2009
Subject: rare Penn Line passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 12145 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 10/23/2009
Subject: Re: rare Penn Line passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 12146 From: jim heckard Date: 10/24/2009
Subject: Re: rare Penn Line passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 12147 From: Matthew Date: 10/24/2009
Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 12148 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 10/24/2009
Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 12149 From: Matthew Date: 10/24/2009
Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 12150 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 10/24/2009
Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 12151 From: Rick Jones Date: 10/24/2009
Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 12152 From: Matthew Date: 10/24/2009
Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 12153 From: Askerberg Date: 10/25/2009
Subject: New finds
Group: vintageHO Message: 12154 From: jim heckard Date: 10/25/2009
Subject: Penn Line/Fleischmann passenger car trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 12155 From: jim heckard Date: 10/25/2009
Subject: PL/Fleischmann A unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 12156 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 10/25/2009
Subject: Re: PL/Fleischmann A unit [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12157 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 10/25/2009
Subject: Re: PL/Fleischmann A unit [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12158 From: jim heckard Date: 10/25/2009
Subject: Re: PL/Fleischmann A unit [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12159 From: trainliker Date: 10/25/2009
Subject: Re: PL/Fleischmann A unit [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12160 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 10/25/2009
Subject: Re: PL/Fleischmann A unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 12161 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/25/2009
Subject: Some New Vids
Group: vintageHO Message: 12162 From: jim heckard Date: 10/25/2009
Subject: Re: PL/Fleischmann A unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 12163 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 10/25/2009
Subject: Re: PL/Fleischmann A unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 12164 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 10/25/2009
Subject: Re: PL/Fleischmann A unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 12165 From: jim heckard Date: 10/25/2009
Subject: Re: PL/Fleischmann A unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 12166 From: sswcharlie Date: 10/27/2009
Subject: Bowser E7 B Body Parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 12167 From: Riley K Date: 10/28/2009
Subject: Clamps to Square Four Sides of Resin Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 12168 From: Howard R Garner Date: 10/28/2009
Subject: Clamps to Square Four Sides of Resin Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 12169 From: nvrr49 Date: 10/28/2009
Subject: Re: Clamps to Square Four Sides of Resin Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 12170 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 10/28/2009
Subject: Re: Clamps to Square Four Sides of Resin Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 12171 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 10/28/2009
Subject: GHC/AristoCraft 2-8-2 Boiler
Group: vintageHO Message: 12172 From: nvrr49 Date: 10/28/2009
Subject: Re: Clamps to Square Four Sides of Resin Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 12173 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Re: New finds; + NYC Subway Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12174 From: DanielH Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Vintage Craftsman Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12175 From: Rick Jones Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage Craftsman Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12176 From: Thomas Parsons Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage Craftsman Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12177 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/31/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage Craftsman Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12178 From: jim heckard Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Fleischmann metal passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12179 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann metal passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12180 From: still just frank Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: GHC/AristoCraft 2-8-2 Boiler
Group: vintageHO Message: 12181 From: still just frank Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: GHC/AristoCraft 2-8-2 Boiler
Group: vintageHO Message: 12182 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 11/1/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann metal passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12183 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 11/2/2009
Subject: train show finds: my 1st Bowser Challenger, now what...
Group: vintageHO Message: 12184 From: jim heckard Date: 11/2/2009
Subject: Re: train show finds: my 1st Bowser Challenger, now what...
Group: vintageHO Message: 12185 From: Sean Naylor Date: 11/2/2009
Subject: Re: train show finds: my 1st Bowser Challenger, now what...
Group: vintageHO Message: 12186 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/2/2009
Subject: Re: train show finds: my 1st Bowser Challenger, now what...
Group: vintageHO Message: 12187 From: the_plainsman Date: 11/2/2009
Subject: Re: train show finds: my 1st Bowser Challenger, now what...
Group: vintageHO Message: 12188 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/2/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann metal passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12189 From: jim heckard Date: 11/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann metal passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12190 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann metal passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12191 From: jim heckard Date: 11/3/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann metal passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12192 From: the_plainsman Date: 11/3/2009
Subject: Holgate + Reynolds Double Deck Gallery Commuter Coaches
Group: vintageHO Message: 12193 From: Glenn476 Date: 11/3/2009
Subject: Re: Holgate + Reynolds Double Deck Gallery Commuter Coaches
Group: vintageHO Message: 12194 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12195 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12196 From: the_plainsman Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: Holgate + Reynolds Double Deck Gallery Commuter Coaches
Group: vintageHO Message: 12197 From: the_plainsman Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: Holgate + Reynolds Double Deck Gallery Commuter Coaches
Group: vintageHO Message: 12198 From: trainliker Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12199 From: Wobbly913 Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12200 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12201 From: Askerberg Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: New finds; + NYC Subway Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12202 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12203 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12204 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12205 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12206 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12207 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12208 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12209 From: texpearson@AOL.com Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: Replacement Gears for LL locomotives
Group: vintageHO Message: 12210 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12211 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12212 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12213 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12214 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12215 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/4/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12216 From: Glenn476 Date: 11/5/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12217 From: Mike Sloane Date: 11/5/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12218 From: the_plainsman Date: 11/5/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12219 From: Bill Nielsen Date: 11/5/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12220 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/5/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12221 From: Walter Bayer Date: 11/5/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12222 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/5/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12223 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/6/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12224 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 11/6/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12225 From: jim heckard Date: 11/6/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12226 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/6/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12227 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/6/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12228 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/6/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12229 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 11/6/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12230 From: corlissbs Date: 11/6/2009
Subject: Unbelievable
Group: vintageHO Message: 12231 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/6/2009
Subject: Re: Unbelievable
Group: vintageHO Message: 12232 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 11/6/2009
Subject: Re: Unbelievable
Group: vintageHO Message: 12233 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 11/6/2009
Subject: Re: Unbelievable
Group: vintageHO Message: 12234 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/6/2009
Subject: Re: Unbelievable
Group: vintageHO Message: 12235 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/6/2009
Subject: Re: Unbelievable
Group: vintageHO Message: 12236 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/6/2009
Subject: Re: Unbelievable
Group: vintageHO Message: 12237 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 11/6/2009
Subject: Re: Unbelievable
Group: vintageHO Message: 12238 From: stephenlengal Date: 11/6/2009
Subject: IHC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12239 From: orangetrainman Date: 11/6/2009
Subject: opinion please
Group: vintageHO Message: 12240 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: IHC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12241 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: IHC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12242 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: opinion please
Group: vintageHO Message: 12243 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: opinion please
Group: vintageHO Message: 12244 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: Unbelievable
Group: vintageHO Message: 12245 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: Unbelievable
Group: vintageHO Message: 12246 From: toytrain13 Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Red Ball reefer door hardware
Group: vintageHO Message: 12247 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: IHC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12248 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: IHC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12249 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball reefer door hardware
Group: vintageHO Message: 12250 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball reefer door hardware
Group: vintageHO Message: 12251 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball reefer door hardware
Group: vintageHO Message: 12252 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: OO gauge brake part
Group: vintageHO Message: 12253 From: John H Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: OO gauge brake part
Group: vintageHO Message: 12254 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: OO gauge brake part
Group: vintageHO Message: 12255 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: IHC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12256 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: opinion please
Group: vintageHO Message: 12257 From: Thomas Parsons Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball reefer door hardware
Group: vintageHO Message: 12258 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: IHC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12259 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12260 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12261 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: IHC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12262 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/7/2009
Subject: Re: IHC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12263 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12264 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12265 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: F unit spacing
Group: vintageHO Message: 12266 From: jim heckard Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Penn Line/Fleischmann Passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 12267 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Re: F unit spacing
Group: vintageHO Message: 12268 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Fleischmann pictures from eBay.de
Group: vintageHO Message: 12269 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12270 From: Denny Anspach Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Re: Red Ball reefer door hardware
Group: vintageHO Message: 12271 From: jim heckard Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12272 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Re: F unit spacing
Group: vintageHO Message: 12273 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Re: F unit spacing
Group: vintageHO Message: 12274 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Replying to Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 12275 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Red Ball Parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 12276 From: jim heckard Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Re: Replying to Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 12277 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Re: Replying to Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 12278 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Re: F unit spacing
Group: vintageHO Message: 12279 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Re: Replying to Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 12280 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/8/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12281 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12282 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: Replying to Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 12283 From: RalphB Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12284 From: jim heckard Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12285 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12286 From: Thomas Donahue Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage Craftsman Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12287 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12288 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12289 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12290 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12291 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: Replying to Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 12292 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12293 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12294 From: John Barlow Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: DCC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12295 From: Glenn476 Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12296 From: Chris B Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: vintage layout plans... (Replying to Jim H)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12297 From: jim heckard Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: vintage layout plans... (Replying to Jim H)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12298 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12299 From: nvrr49 Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12300 From: Chris B Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: vintage layout plans... (Replying to Jim H)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12301 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12302 From: Rick Jones Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Central Valley
Group: vintageHO Message: 12303 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: Central Valley
Group: vintageHO Message: 12304 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: DCC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12305 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12306 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/9/2009
Subject: Re: More Bad News
Group: vintageHO Message: 12307 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: DCC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12308 From: John Barlow Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: DCC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12309 From: John Barlow Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: In All Fairness... (Was: DCC)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12310 From: Wobbly913 Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: In All Fairness... (Was: DCC)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12311 From: Glenn476 Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: In All Fairness... (Was: DCC)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12312 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: In All Fairness... (Was: DCC)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12313 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: DCC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12314 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: DCC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12315 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12316 From: Rick Jones Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12317 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: DCC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12318 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12319 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12320 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12321 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: DCC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12322 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: DCC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12323 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: DCC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12324 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: DCC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12325 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: DCC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12326 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Enough with the DCC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12327 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: was dcc, now Vintage Lionel
Group: vintageHO Message: 12328 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12329 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12330 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12331 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/10/2009
Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12332 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 11/11/2009
Subject: Deepest Thanks and Appreciation
Group: vintageHO Message: 12333 From: jerrygart5 Date: 11/11/2009
Subject: Re: DCC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12334 From: Denny Anspach Date: 11/11/2009
Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12335 From: the_plainsman Date: 11/11/2009
Subject: Re: Deepest Thanks and Appreciation
Group: vintageHO Message: 12336 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/11/2009
Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12337 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/11/2009
Subject: Re: DCC
Group: vintageHO Message: 12338 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 11/11/2009
Subject: DETAILS ON HO TRAINS
Group: vintageHO Message: 12339 From: jim heckard Date: 11/11/2009
Subject: Re: DETAILS ON HO TRAINS
Group: vintageHO Message: 12340 From: Glenn476 Date: 11/11/2009
Subject: Re: DETAILS ON HO TRAINS
Group: vintageHO Message: 12341 From: Glenn476 Date: 11/11/2009
Subject: search
Group: vintageHO Message: 12342 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/11/2009
Subject: Re: search
Group: vintageHO Message: 12343 From: Glenn476 Date: 11/12/2009
Subject: Re: search
Group: vintageHO Message: 12344 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 11/12/2009
Subject: Fw: PFM Spud B
Group: vintageHO Message: 12345 From: Denny Anspach Date: 11/12/2009
Subject: Fw: PFM Spud B
Group: vintageHO Message: 12346 From: Denny Anspach Date: 11/12/2009
Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12347 From: Garry Spear Date: 11/12/2009
Subject: Winton 2-6-6-6 Available
Group: vintageHO Message: 12348 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/12/2009
Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12350 From: Russ Shiel Date: 11/12/2009
Subject: mystery pass cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12351 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/12/2009
Subject: Question: See below
Group: vintageHO Message: 12352 From: Karl Peters Date: 11/12/2009
Subject: Lionel Bridge Conversion
Group: vintageHO Message: 12353 From: grassball2003 Date: 11/12/2009
Subject: FS: Campbell Produce Warehouse Kit # 435
Group: vintageHO Message: 12354 From: Glenn476 Date: 11/12/2009
Subject: Re: Lionel Bridge Conversion
Group: vintageHO Message: 12355 From: Thomas Parsons Date: 11/12/2009
Subject: Re: FS: Campbell Produce Warehouse Kit # 435
Group: vintageHO Message: 12356 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/12/2009
Subject: Re: mystery pass cars [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12357 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 11/12/2009
Subject: Re: Lionel Bridge Conversion
Group: vintageHO Message: 12358 From: orangetrainman Date: 11/12/2009
Subject: need help I.Ding these
Group: vintageHO Message: 12359 From: George Date: 11/13/2009
Subject: SOLD: Campbell Produce Warehouse Kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 12360 From: Glenn476 Date: 11/13/2009
Subject: Re: Lionel Bridge Conversion
Group: vintageHO Message: 12361 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 11/13/2009
Subject: Passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12362 From: Denny Anspach Date: 11/13/2009
Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12363 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/13/2009
Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12364 From: nvrr49 Date: 11/13/2009
Subject: Re: need help I.Ding these
Group: vintageHO Message: 12365 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 11/13/2009
Subject: Re: need help I.Ding these
Group: vintageHO Message: 12366 From: Glenn476 Date: 11/14/2009
Subject: Re: Lionel Bridge Conversion
Group: vintageHO Message: 12367 From: orangetrainman Date: 11/14/2009
Subject: HELP TO IDENTIFY THESE CARS
Group: vintageHO Message: 12368 From: Denny Anspach Date: 11/14/2009
Subject: Winton 2-6-6-6. Was: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12369 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/15/2009
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6. Was: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12370 From: jim heckard Date: 11/15/2009
Subject: new Athearn Book
Group: vintageHO Message: 12371 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 11/15/2009
Subject: Re: new Athearn Book
Group: vintageHO Message: 12372 From: Walter Bayer Date: 11/15/2009
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6. Was: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12373 From: Denny Anspach Date: 11/16/2009
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6. Was: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12374 From: Dick Date: 11/16/2009
Subject: Stripping old paint?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12375 From: Denny Anspach Date: 11/16/2009
Subject: Vintage HO: Recent marketplace experience.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12376 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/16/2009
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6. Was: Ideal Wrecking car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12377 From: Wobbly913 Date: 11/16/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage HO: Recent marketplace experience.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12378 From: John H Date: 11/16/2009
Subject: Re: Stripping old paint?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12379 From: Glenn476 Date: 11/16/2009
Subject: Re: Stripping old paint?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12380 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 11/16/2009
Subject: Re: Stripping old paint?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12381 From: nvrr49 Date: 11/16/2009
Subject: My recent experiences a shows Re: Vintage HO: Recent marketplace exp
Group: vintageHO Message: 12382 From: Mary Long Date: 11/16/2009
Subject: Vintage HO: Recent marketplace experience.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12383 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/16/2009
Subject: Re: Stripping old paint?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12384 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/16/2009
Subject: Re: Vintage HO: Recent marketplace experience.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12385 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 11/17/2009
Subject: Rivets
Group: vintageHO Message: 12386 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/17/2009
Subject: Re: Rivets [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12387 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 11/17/2009
Subject: ladder strip
Group: vintageHO Message: 12388 From: jim heckard Date: 11/17/2009
Subject: Re: ladder strip
Group: vintageHO Message: 12389 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/17/2009
Subject: Re: ladder strip
Group: vintageHO Message: 12390 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 11/17/2009
Subject: Re: ladder strip
Group: vintageHO Message: 12391 From: jim heckard Date: 11/17/2009
Subject: Re: ladder strip
Group: vintageHO Message: 12392 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/17/2009
Subject: Re: ladder strip
Group: vintageHO Message: 12393 From: rcjge Date: 11/17/2009
Subject: Varney Diesel V-4?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12394 From: jim heckard Date: 11/17/2009
Subject: Varney V-4 motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 12395 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 11/17/2009
Subject: Re: Varney V-4 motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 12396 From: jim heckard Date: 11/17/2009
Subject: Re: Varney V-4 motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 12397 From: Bionicworm1 Date: 11/17/2009
Subject: Open House
Group: vintageHO Message: 12398 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 11/18/2009
Subject: Re: Varney V-4 motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 12399 From: J. Gareth Edwards Date: 11/18/2009
Subject: varney V-4
Group: vintageHO Message: 12400 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 11/18/2009
Subject: Re: varney V-4
Group: vintageHO Message: 12401 From: jim heckard Date: 11/18/2009
Subject: Re: varney V-4
Group: vintageHO Message: 12402 From: toytrain13 Date: 11/24/2009
Subject: Dropped?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12403 From: Sean Naylor Date: 11/24/2009
Subject: Re: Dropped?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12404 From: Glenn476 Date: 11/24/2009
Subject: Re: Dropped?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12405 From: jim heckard Date: 11/24/2009
Subject: Re: Dropped?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12406 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 11/24/2009
Subject: Re: Dropped?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12407 From: 69_Mustang_Man Date: 11/24/2009
Subject: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12408 From: Rick Jones Date: 11/24/2009
Subject: Re: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12409 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 11/24/2009
Subject: Re: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12410 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/24/2009
Subject: Re: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12411 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/24/2009
Subject: Re: Dropped?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12412 From: jim heckard Date: 11/24/2009
Subject: What are you doing
Group: vintageHO Message: 12413 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12414 From: Mike Sloane Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: What are you doing [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12415 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: What are you doing
Group: vintageHO Message: 12416 From: east_overshoe_railroad Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: dc ( not dcc) group
Group: vintageHO Message: 12417 From: jim heckard Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: What are you doing
Group: vintageHO Message: 12418 From: the_plainsman Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: Supermarket Window Signs and Thankgiving!
Group: vintageHO Message: 12419 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: THANKSGIVING
Group: vintageHO Message: 12420 From: Mike Sloane Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are you doi
Group: vintageHO Message: 12421 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: What are you doing
Group: vintageHO Message: 12422 From: Mike Sloane Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: What are you doing
Group: vintageHO Message: 12423 From: Mike Sloane Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: dc ( not dcc) group
Group: vintageHO Message: 12424 From: Sean Naylor Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: THANKSGIVING
Group: vintageHO Message: 12425 From: Glenn476 Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are you
Group: vintageHO Message: 12426 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: What are you doing
Group: vintageHO Message: 12427 From: Gary Woodard Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: What are you doing
Group: vintageHO Message: 12428 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are you
Group: vintageHO Message: 12429 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are you
Group: vintageHO Message: 12430 From: jim heckard Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Blue Line ends
Group: vintageHO Message: 12431 From: Mike Sloane Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are you
Group: vintageHO Message: 12432 From: jim heckard Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are you
Group: vintageHO Message: 12433 From: Rick Jones Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: What are you doing
Group: vintageHO Message: 12434 From: Sean Naylor Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are you
Group: vintageHO Message: 12435 From: Dave Royer Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: What are you doing
Group: vintageHO Message: 12436 From: Larry Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: Supermarket Window Signs and Thankgiving!
Group: vintageHO Message: 12437 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12438 From: Richard White Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line ends [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12439 From: jim heckard Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line ends
Group: vintageHO Message: 12440 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: To divert...Re: [vintageHO] OK... So, what is everyone working on?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12441 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/25/2009
Subject: Re: What are you doing
Group: vintageHO Message: 12442 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 11/26/2009
Subject: Re: To divert...Re: [vintageHO] OK... So, what is everyone working o
Group: vintageHO Message: 12443 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/26/2009
Subject: Re: To divert...Re: [vintageHO] OK... So, what is everyone working o
Group: vintageHO Message: 12444 From: imp s Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: DCC? - ugh!
Group: vintageHO Message: 12445 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: DCC? - ugh!
Group: vintageHO Message: 12446 From: John Barlow Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: DCC? - ugh!
Group: vintageHO Message: 12447 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: DCC? - ugh!
Group: vintageHO Message: 12448 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: DCC? - ugh!
Group: vintageHO Message: 12449 From: jay matz Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: DCC? - ugh!
Group: vintageHO Message: 12450 From: John Barlow Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: Major Theft Report (was: DCC? - ugh!)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12451 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: Major Theft Report (was: DCC? - ugh!)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12452 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: What are you doing
Group: vintageHO Message: 12453 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: Major Theft Report
Group: vintageHO Message: 12454 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Crescent Models EMC 2800
Group: vintageHO Message: 12455 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: What are you doing
Group: vintageHO Message: 12456 From: jim heckard Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Crescent
Group: vintageHO Message: 12457 From: jim heckard Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Crescent Addition
Group: vintageHO Message: 12458 From: Glenn476 Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: Major Theft Report
Group: vintageHO Message: 12459 From: chianrsteele Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12460 From: hawk53965 Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: An introduction
Group: vintageHO Message: 12461 From: hawk53965 Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Penn Line, an interesting find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12462 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12463 From: Richard White Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line ends
Group: vintageHO Message: 12464 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: What have you been up to
Group: vintageHO Message: 12465 From: jim heckard Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12466 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12467 From: Glenn476 Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12468 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12469 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12470 From: jim heckard Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12471 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: An introduction
Group: vintageHO Message: 12472 From: jim heckard Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: Blue Line ends
Group: vintageHO Message: 12473 From: John Barlow Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12474 From: hawk53965 Date: 11/27/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12475 From: Matthew Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12476 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12477 From: Chris B Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Re: What have you been up to [ Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12478 From: jim heckard Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Penn Line type
Group: vintageHO Message: 12479 From: jim heckard Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line type addition
Group: vintageHO Message: 12480 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Crescent B unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 12481 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Re: What have you been up to/Tru-Scale/Chris...
Group: vintageHO Message: 12482 From: hawk53965 Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line type
Group: vintageHO Message: 12483 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Re: What have I been up to
Group: vintageHO Message: 12484 From: hawk53965 Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Re: What have I been up to
Group: vintageHO Message: 12485 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Re: An introduction
Group: vintageHO Message: 12486 From: hawk53965 Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Re: An introduction
Group: vintageHO Message: 12487 From: jim heckard Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line type
Group: vintageHO Message: 12488 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: More Tru-Scale; was What have you been up to/Tru-Scale/Chris...
Group: vintageHO Message: 12489 From: Chris B Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Re: What have you been up to/Tru-Scale/Chris...
Group: vintageHO Message: 12490 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 12491 From: mrncartoon Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: IT 1800 Series Reefer Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12492 From: hawk53965 Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Train Miniatures flat cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12493 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12494 From: Garry Spear Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Re: Train Miniatures flat cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12495 From: Glenn476 Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12496 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/28/2009
Subject: Re: Train Miniatures flat cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12497 From: Glenn476 Date: 11/29/2009
Subject: Medford Show
Group: vintageHO Message: 12498 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 11/29/2009
Subject: Re: IT 1800 Series Reefer Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12499 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/29/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12500 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/29/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12501 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/29/2009
Subject: Re: What have you been up to/Tru-Scale/Chris... [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12502 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 11/29/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12503 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 11/29/2009
Subject: Re: What have you been up to/Tru-Scale/Chris...
Group: vintageHO Message: 12504 From: Rick Jones Date: 11/29/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12505 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 11/29/2009
Subject: Varney Utility Coaches
Group: vintageHO Message: 12506 From: Chris B Date: 11/29/2009
Subject: What have you been up to/Tru-Scale double turnout warp
Group: vintageHO Message: 12507 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 11/29/2009
Subject: What have you been up to
Group: vintageHO Message: 12508 From: ottsm Date: 11/29/2009
Subject: American Flyer HO couplers
Group: vintageHO Message: 12509 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 11/29/2009
Subject: Re: Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12510 From: Dale Smith Date: 11/29/2009
Subject: Re: American Flyer HO couplers
Group: vintageHO Message: 12511 From: jim heckard Date: 12/2/2009
Subject: M. I. A. ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12512 From: the_plainsman Date: 12/2/2009
Subject: Re: M. I. A. ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12513 From: rcjge Date: 12/2/2009
Subject: varney Super Consolie Shell
Group: vintageHO Message: 12514 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/3/2009
Subject: Re: varney Super Consolie Shell
Group: vintageHO Message: 12515 From: Chris B Date: 12/6/2009
Subject: Re: natural finish wood roadbed and layout deck and backdrops
Group: vintageHO Message: 12516 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 12/6/2009
Subject: Re: natural finish wood roadbed and layout deck and backdrops [5 Att
Group: vintageHO Message: 12517 From: the_plainsman Date: 12/6/2009
Subject: Sunday's Train Show Finds : brass wedge plow
Group: vintageHO Message: 12518 From: Chris B Date: 12/7/2009
Subject: Re: natural finish wood roadbed and layout deck and backdrops
Group: vintageHO Message: 12519 From: Thomas Donahue Date: 12/7/2009
Subject: Brass Japanese Switcher?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12520 From: Rick Jones Date: 12/7/2009
Subject: Re: Brass Japanese Switcher?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12521 From: Sean Naylor Date: 12/7/2009
Subject: Re: Brass Japanese Switcher?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12522 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 12/7/2009
Subject: Re: natural finish wood roadbed and layout deck and backdrops
Group: vintageHO Message: 12523 From: Dst8596587@aol.com Date: 12/7/2009
Subject: Re: Brass Japanese Switcher?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12524 From: Matthew Date: 12/8/2009
Subject: Re: Brass Japanese Switcher?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12525 From: Mike Bauers Date: 12/8/2009
Subject: Re: Brass Japanese Switcher?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12526 From: Thomas Donahue Date: 12/8/2009
Subject: Re: Brass Japanese Switcher?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12527 From: Rick Jones Date: 12/8/2009
Subject: Re: Brass Japanese Switcher?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12528 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 12/8/2009
Subject: Re: Brass Japanese Switcher?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12529 From: Jim Waterman Date: 12/8/2009
Subject: Brass Japanese Switcher?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12530 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/8/2009
Subject: Re: Brass Japanese Switcher?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12531 From: the_plainsman Date: 12/8/2009
Subject: Brass Japanese Switcher?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12532 From: Dale Smith Date: 12/10/2009
Subject: New Website for American Flyer HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 12533 From: RalphB Date: 12/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 12534 From: Raymond Lorts Sr Date: 12/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 12535 From: Gary Woodard Date: 12/11/2009
Subject: [HO] Hitler and DCC (youtube)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12536 From: DOM ST.JOHN Date: 12/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 12537 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 12538 From: jim heckard Date: 12/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 12539 From: Dale Smith Date: 12/11/2009
Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 12540 From: the_plainsman Date: 12/12/2009
Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 12541 From: Dale Smith Date: 12/12/2009
Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 12542 From: Nelson B Date: 12/12/2009
Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 12543 From: Chris B Date: 12/12/2009
Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 12544 From: DOM ST.JOHN Date: 12/12/2009
Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 12545 From: Dale Smith Date: 12/13/2009
Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 12546 From: ho_in_hancock Date: 12/14/2009
Subject: Penn Line H-9 Consolidation
Group: vintageHO Message: 12547 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/14/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line H-9 Consolidation
Group: vintageHO Message: 12548 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 12/14/2009
Subject: Re: Penn Line H-9 Consolidation
Group: vintageHO Message: 12549 From: Mike Bauers Date: 12/15/2009
Subject: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12550 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12551 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12552 From: Chris B Date: 12/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12553 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12554 From: Rick Jones Date: 12/15/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12555 From: Gary Woodard Date: 12/16/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12556 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/16/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12557 From: Chris B Date: 12/16/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12558 From: jbark76 Date: 12/16/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12559 From: Chris B Date: 12/16/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12560 From: Gary Woodard Date: 12/16/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12561 From: Gary Woodard Date: 12/16/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12562 From: Chris B Date: 12/16/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 12563 From: Gary Woodard Date: 12/16/2009
Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12564 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/17/2009
Subject: Re: PRR Train Phones
Group: vintageHO Message: 12565 From: Gary Woodard Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: Merry Christmas 2009
Group: vintageHO Message: 12566 From: Rick Jones Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: Identify This Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12567 From: Sean Naylor Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: Re: Identify This Loco [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12568 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: Re: Identify This Loco [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12569 From: Rick Jones Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: Re: Identify This Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12570 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: Re: Identify This Loco [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12571 From: John H Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: Re: Identify This Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12572 From: Dale Smith Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: Re: Identify This Loco [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12573 From: Rick Jones Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: Another Identification Needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 12574 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: Re: Another Identification Needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 12575 From: Rick Jones Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: Re: Identify This Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12576 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: Re: Identify This Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 12577 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: Re: Another Identification Needed [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12578 From: Rick Jones Date: 12/19/2009
Subject: Re: Another Identification Needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 12579 From: Rudolf Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Re: rare Penn Line passenger set
Group: vintageHO Message: 12580 From: Rick Jones Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12581 From: Wobbly913 Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12582 From: Bill Anderson Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Sound Components
Group: vintageHO Message: 12583 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12584 From: Rick Jones Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12585 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Re: Sound Components
Group: vintageHO Message: 12586 From: Michael Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12587 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12588 From: Michael Allman Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12589 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/20/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12590 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12591 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12592 From: Matthew Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12593 From: Nelson B Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12594 From: Gary Woodard Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12595 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12596 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12597 From: Rick Jones Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12598 From: the_plainsman Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Megow PRR Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 12599 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12600 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12601 From: jim heckard Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Megow PRR Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 12602 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Megow PRR Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 12603 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Megow PRR Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 12604 From: trainliker Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12605 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Megow PRR Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 12606 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12607 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12608 From: Thomas Parsons Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12609 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12610 From: Michael G. Allman Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12611 From: Rick Jones Date: 12/21/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12612 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12613 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12614 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12615 From: Matthew Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12616 From: Chris B Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12617 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn RDC's, was - Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12618 From: jim heckard Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12619 From: the_plainsman Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Selling (and Buying)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12620 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12621 From: John H Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Selling (and Buying)
Group: vintageHO Message: 12622 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12623 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12624 From: Jim Waterman Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12625 From: Jim Waterman Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12626 From: Wobbly913 Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12627 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12628 From: Wobbly913 Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12629 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12630 From: Rick Jones Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12631 From: Wobbly913 Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12632 From: Chris B Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12633 From: Wobbly913 Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12634 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/22/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12635 From: Wobbly913 Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12636 From: Matthew Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12637 From: tnc200394 Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Athearn Uboats from 1976
Group: vintageHO Message: 12638 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12639 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Uboats from 1976
Group: vintageHO Message: 12640 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn Uboats from 1976
Group: vintageHO Message: 12641 From: jim heckard Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Athearn plastic RDC 3 R B D Hi-F New Haven Tri Color
Group: vintageHO Message: 12642 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12643 From: jim heckard Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12644 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12645 From: jim heckard Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12646 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12647 From: the_plainsman Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn plastic RDC 3 R B D Hi-F New Haven Tri Color
Group: vintageHO Message: 12648 From: jim heckard Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12649 From: 69_Mustang_Man Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Directions for a Varney 2-8-0 old lady needed.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12650 From: Mike Bauers Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Re: Steam Locomotive to the rescue in 2009
Group: vintageHO Message: 12651 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/23/2009
Subject: Re: Selling
Group: vintageHO Message: 12652 From: Chris B Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn plastic RDC 3 R B D Hi-F New Haven Tri Color [2 Attachme
Group: vintageHO Message: 12653 From: Chris B Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn plastic RDC 3 R B D Hi-F New Haven Tri Color
Group: vintageHO Message: 12654 From: jim heckard Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Directions for a Varney 2-8-0 old lady needed.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12655 From: jim heckard Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Happy Holidays
Group: vintageHO Message: 12656 From: Gary Woodard Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Happy Holidays
Group: vintageHO Message: 12657 From: John Hagen Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Directions for a Varney 2-8-0 old lady needed.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12658 From: Sean Naylor Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Directions for a Varney 2-8-0 old lady needed.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12659 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Directions for a Varney 2-8-0 old lady needed.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12660 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Directions for a Varney 2-8-0 old lady needed.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12661 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Christmas wishes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12662 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn plastic RDC 3 R B D Hi-F New Haven Tri Color [2 Attac...
Group: vintageHO Message: 12663 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Directions for a Varney 2-8-0 old lady needed.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12664 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Season's Greetings
Group: vintageHO Message: 12665 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Unknown Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 12666 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Unknown Coach [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12667 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Unknown Coach [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12668 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Unknown Coach [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12669 From: jim heckard Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Unknown Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 12670 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Unknown Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 12671 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
Group: vintageHO Message: 12672 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Unknown Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 12673 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Chester Passenger cars again
Group: vintageHO Message: 12674 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
Group: vintageHO Message: 12675 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
Group: vintageHO Message: 12676 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/24/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
Group: vintageHO Message: 12677 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/25/2009
Subject: Re: Chester Passenger cars again [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12678 From: Wobbly913 Date: 12/25/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
Group: vintageHO Message: 12679 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 12/25/2009
Subject: passenger train set on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 12680 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 12/25/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
Group: vintageHO Message: 12681 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/25/2009
Subject: Re: Unknown Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 12682 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/25/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
Group: vintageHO Message: 12683 From: jim heckard Date: 12/25/2009
Subject: Re: passenger train set on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 12684 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 12/25/2009
Subject: Re: passenger train set on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 12685 From: jim heckard Date: 12/25/2009
Subject: Re: Athearn plastic RDC 3 R B D Hi-F New Haven Tri Color [2 Attac...
Group: vintageHO Message: 12686 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 12/25/2009
Subject: Re: passenger train set on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 12687 From: jim heckard Date: 12/25/2009
Subject: odd passenger set on Ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 12688 From: Chris B Date: 12/25/2009
Subject: Re: odd passenger set on Ebay [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12689 From: Chris B Date: 12/25/2009
Subject: Re: odd passenger set on Ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 12690 From: Mike Bauers Date: 12/25/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
Group: vintageHO Message: 12691 From: jim heckard Date: 12/25/2009
Subject: Re: odd passenger set on Ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 12692 From: Mike Bauers Date: 12/25/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
Group: vintageHO Message: 12693 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 12/25/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
Group: vintageHO Message: 12694 From: Charlie Date: 12/25/2009
Subject: E6B Body Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 12695 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
Group: vintageHO Message: 12696 From: Howard R Garner Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
Group: vintageHO Message: 12697 From: Denny Anspach Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
Group: vintageHO Message: 12698 From: jim heckard Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: latest building
Group: vintageHO Message: 12699 From: Dale Smith Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: Unknown Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 12700 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12701 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12702 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12703 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Couple of questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 12704 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: Couple of questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 12705 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: Couple of questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 12706 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: Couple of questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 12707 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: Couple of questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 12708 From: Rick Jones Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: FYI Lionel Hustler/Husky
Group: vintageHO Message: 12709 From: John H Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: Couple of questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 12710 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: Couple of questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 12711 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12712 From: Wobbly913 Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: FYI Lionel Hustler/Husky
Group: vintageHO Message: 12713 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12714 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12715 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/26/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12716 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12717 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12718 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12719 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12720 From: Chris B Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: and ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12721 From: Ray Hobin Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12722 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: and ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12723 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12724 From: Chris B Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: and ANOTHER question about vintage ground throws
Group: vintageHO Message: 12725 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: and ANOTHER question about vintage ground throws
Group: vintageHO Message: 12726 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: OT (on some lists) - Earnhardt HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 12727 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12728 From: Michael Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Cleaning Wheels?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12729 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12730 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12731 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Clarification, please
Group: vintageHO Message: 12732 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12733 From: jay matz Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Wheels?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12734 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: and ANOTHER question about vintage ground throws
Group: vintageHO Message: 12735 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12736 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12737 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Wheels?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12738 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 12739 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Wheels?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12740 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12741 From: Chris B Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: uploaded combined binder of car list spreadsheets in pdf format
Group: vintageHO Message: 12742 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: and ANOTHER question about vintage ground throws
Group: vintageHO Message: 12743 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: uploaded combined binder of car list spreadsheets in pdf format
Group: vintageHO Message: 12744 From: Fred Stevens K2FRD Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Wheels?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12745 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12746 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12747 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12748 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/27/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12749 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12750 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12751 From: the_plainsman Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question very early Ulrich
Group: vintageHO Message: 12752 From: Nelson B Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Wheels?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12753 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question very early Ulrich
Group: vintageHO Message: 12754 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question very early Ulrich
Group: vintageHO Message: 12755 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12756 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Freight Truck Springs
Group: vintageHO Message: 12757 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Re: Freight Truck Springs
Group: vintageHO Message: 12758 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Re: Freight Truck Springs
Group: vintageHO Message: 12759 From: Wobbly913 Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Re: Freight Truck Springs
Group: vintageHO Message: 12760 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Re: Freight Truck Springs
Group: vintageHO Message: 12761 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: SHEEEEEEEEEEEE.......
Group: vintageHO Message: 12762 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Quick question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12763 From: Rick Jones Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Re: Quick question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12764 From: the_plainsman Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question very early Ulrich
Group: vintageHO Message: 12765 From: Tom Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Wheels?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12766 From: Tom Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Re: Cleaning Wheels?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12767 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: whoooooooo-eeeeeee
Group: vintageHO Message: 12768 From: Charlie Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Re: whoooooooo-eeeeeee
Group: vintageHO Message: 12769 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question very early Ulrich
Group: vintageHO Message: 12770 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/28/2009
Subject: Re: Quick question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12771 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question very early Ulrich
Group: vintageHO Message: 12772 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question very early Ulrich
Group: vintageHO Message: 12773 From: Chris B Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Re: whoooooooo-eeeeeee
Group: vintageHO Message: 12774 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Re: Quick question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12775 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Re: SHEEEEEEEEEEEE.......
Group: vintageHO Message: 12776 From: ttcollector60 Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Re: SHEEEEEEEEEEEE.......
Group: vintageHO Message: 12777 From: Sean Naylor Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Re: whoooooooo-eeeeeee
Group: vintageHO Message: 12778 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Cloistered Life
Group: vintageHO Message: 12779 From: Gary Woodard Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Re: Cloistered Life
Group: vintageHO Message: 12780 From: Larry Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Re: SHEEEEEEEEEEEE.......
Group: vintageHO Message: 12781 From: Richard White Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Re: Cloistered Life
Group: vintageHO Message: 12782 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Re: Cloistered Life
Group: vintageHO Message: 12783 From: Chris B Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Re: Cloistered Life
Group: vintageHO Message: 12784 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Definitely Varney cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12785 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Re: Definitely Varney cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12786 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Re: Definitely Varney cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12787 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Re: Definitely Varney cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12788 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: Re: Cloistered Life
Group: vintageHO Message: 12789 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/29/2009
Subject: More....
Group: vintageHO Message: 12790 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: Re: Definitely Varney cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12791 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: Re: Definitely Varney cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12792 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: Box 4
Group: vintageHO Message: 12793 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: Photos Up!
Group: vintageHO Message: 12794 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: SilverStreak cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12795 From: jim heckard Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: Varney Mikes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12796 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12797 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12798 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12799 From: Rick Jones Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12800 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12801 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12802 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/30/2009
Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12803 From: Jim Waterman Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Varney Mikes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12804 From: jim heckard Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12805 From: jim heckard Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12806 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12807 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12808 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12809 From: John H Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Varney Mikes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12810 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12811 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12812 From: jim heckard Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: J English Mike & Pacific Valve Gear
Group: vintageHO Message: 12813 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12814 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12815 From: jim heckard Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
Group: vintageHO Message: 12816 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
Group: vintageHO Message: 12817 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12818 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12819 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
Group: vintageHO Message: 12820 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12821 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
Group: vintageHO Message: 12822 From: jim heckard Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
Group: vintageHO Message: 12823 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
Group: vintageHO Message: 12824 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12825 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12826 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Got a new one for ya.....
Group: vintageHO Message: 12827 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Surprises...
Group: vintageHO Message: 12828 From: Denny Anspach Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
Group: vintageHO Message: 12829 From: Denny Anspach Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
Group: vintageHO Message: 12830 From: 69_Mustang_Man Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Looking for some info on a strange Copper caboose..
Group: vintageHO Message: 12831 From: Sean Naylor Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Looking for some info on a strange Copper caboose..
Group: vintageHO Message: 12832 From: jim heckard Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
Group: vintageHO Message: 12833 From: jim heckard Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
Group: vintageHO Message: 12834 From: jim heckard Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Looking for some info on a strange Copper caboose..
Group: vintageHO Message: 12835 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Got a new one for ya.....
Group: vintageHO Message: 12836 From: Roger Aultman Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Got a new one for ya.....
Group: vintageHO Message: 12837 From: Glenn476 Date: 12/31/2009
Subject: Re: Got a new one for ya.....


Group: vintageHO Message: 8127 From: Howard Dishman Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Hi Group,
Are the mantua streamline aluminum passenger cars close to prototype
and if so, of what??? I know that they had been shortened to accomodate
the tighter radius track but I have'nt found any other information on
them.
Thanks
Howard
Group: vintageHO Message: 8128 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
I would consider them "generics" until determined otherwise by the window
patterns. gj
----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Dishman" <holat88@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:56 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8129 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??

Hi Howard,

 

The profile is that of a Budd car.  The baggage may work for some 72’ length baggage cars, but that will be it.  Being short, there is no exact prototype match for them.  The diner does not have the normal six big windows in the dinning area, but has a set of three big then three smaller for the dining area and then the kitchen and aisle way windows.  The coach would be at least one big window short for many Budd coaches.  Budd plan or lot numbers were unique to each order by a railroad or group of roads.  But multiple plan numbers do have the same side arrangements.

 

So they make a nice looking train and could even be mixed with other 72’ cars and still look nice.  Just do not get them to close to 85’ cars and some would not notice.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Howard Dishman
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:56 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??

 

Hi Group,
Are the mantua streamline aluminum passenger cars close to prototype
and if so, of what??? I know that they had been shortened to accomodate
the tighter radius track but I have'nt found any other information on
them.
Thanks
Howard

Group: vintageHO Message: 8130 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Aren't the Mantua cars 60-footers?  The Athearn and some Con-Cor's are 72-footers,   Run with an F-nit not too bad, but with an ALCo PA is marginal and with an E-anything definitely not. 
 
Way Back--in the forties and fifties, there were just the 60-ft shorties and the full-length 85 fts.   gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:34 AM
Subject: RE: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??

 
Group: vintageHO Message: 8131 From: Howard Dishman Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??
I thought that they might be Budd type cars but other than that,
needed some confirmation. I found a complete set+ (11 cars) and being
into vintage trains, was impressed with the quality of machine work
done on the fluting, etc.. and rather heavy too. I almost want to do
some detailing for enhancement but I know that would ruin
the "collectable" value completely for someone down the road so I'll
opt out of that idea.
Still, they are impressive on the layout and pull very nicely(all
with KDs) behind my Proto ABB set.
Thanks to all for setting me straight on these cars.
Howard





--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Howard,
>
>
>
> The profile is that of a Budd car. The baggage may work for some
72' length
> baggage cars, but that will be it. Being short, there is no exact
prototype
> match for them. The diner does not have the normal six big windows
in the
> dinning area, but has a set of three big then three smaller for the
dining
> area and then the kitchen and aisle way windows. The coach would
be at
> least one big window short for many Budd coaches. Budd plan or lot
numbers
> were unique to each order by a railroad or group of roads. But
multiple
> plan numbers do have the same side arrangements.
>
>
>
> So they make a nice looking train and could even be mixed with
other 72'
> cars and still look nice. Just do not get them to close to 85'
cars and
> some would not notice.
>
>
>
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf
> Of Howard Dishman
> Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:56 AM
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??
>
>
>
> Hi Group,
> Are the mantua streamline aluminum passenger cars close to
prototype
> and if so, of what??? I know that they had been shortened to
accomodate
> the tighter radius track but I have'nt found any other information
on
> them.
> Thanks
> Howard
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 8132 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??

Glenn,

 

The aluminum extruded light weight style cars are 72’.  I measured them before posting my first reply to be sure.  That is when I noticed the diner window issue.  I had never noticed it before.  I am not sure when they first appeared, but some of mine do have the hook and loop coupler installed on them.  Mantua may have also had 60’ cars, but I am not aware of them, I think.

Take care,

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Glenn476
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 4:05 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??

 

Aren't the Mantua cars 60-footers?  The Athearn and some Con-Cor's are 72-footers,   Run with an F-nit not too bad, but with an ALCo PA is marginal and with an E-anything definitely not. 

 

Way Back--in the forties and fifties, there were just the 60-ft shorties and the full-length 85 fts.   gj
Group: vintageHO Message: 8133 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Re those Mantua passenger cars ... I got two sets (UP and Santa Fe,
combine, one or two coaches, observation) in the early seventies, they
were plastic, with stamped steel floor, but look similar to the
extruded aluminum cars. were they follow up's to them? - think one of
the Santa Fe coaches should still exist somewhere, the ATSF combine was
ruined when I built a RDC from it ( I was 12 then) , the rest was
destroyed when the attik burned...

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 8134 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??

Hi Gerold,

 

They are listed in the 1989 Walthers catalog as Extruded aluminum bodies.  I did not think these were done in plastic.  There is no ATSF listed in this catalog either.  Could you have gotten American Train and Track cars.  They also have the Budd style roof. Made by Tri-ang of England .

 

Take care,

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Gerold Eckl
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 5:33 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??

 

Re those Mantua passenger cars ... I got two sets (UP and Santa Fe,
combine, one or two coaches, observation) in the early seventies, they
were plastic, with stamped steel floor, but look similar to the
extruded aluminum cars. were they follow up's to them? - think one of
the Santa Fe coaches should still exist somewhere, the ATSF combine was
ruined when I built a RDC from it ( I was 12 then) , the rest was
destroyed when the attik burned...

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 8135 From: Riverboy Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Hi Group,
 
I believe at one time in the 70's , Tyco had been spun off from Mantua , and cam out with a plastic line .
 
Here's a link to some photos . Just wish they were a bit bigger .
 
 
If I am mistaken , someone please correct me on it .

 


--- On Thu, 1/1/09, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, January 1, 2009, 6:38 PM

Hi Gerold,

 

They are listed in the 1989 Walthers catalog as Extruded aluminum bodies.  I did not think these were done in plastic.  There is no ATSF listed in this catalog either.  Could you have gotten American Train and Track cars.  They also have the Budd style roof. Made by Tri-ang of England .

 

Take care,

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

 

From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Gerold Eckl
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 5:33 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??

 

Re those Mantua passenger cars ... I got two sets (UP and Santa Fe,
combine, one or two coaches, observation) in the early seventies, they
were plastic, with stamped steel floor, but look similar to the
extruded aluminum cars. were they follow up's to them? - think one of
the Santa Fe coaches should still exist somewhere, the ATSF combine was
ruined when I built a RDC from it ( I was 12 then) , the rest was
destroyed when the attik burned...

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 8136 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??

There you go; they are probably the plastic ones.  I am not familiar with them.  Thanks for pointing them out.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Riverboy
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 6:48 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SPAM]RE: [vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??

Hi Group,

 

I believe at one time in the 70's , Tyco had been spun off from Mantua , and cam out with a plastic line .

 

Here's a link to some photos . Just wish they were a bit bigger .

 

http://www.hoseeker .org/tycoinforma tion/tycocatalog 1979pg15. jpg

 

If I am mistaken , someone please correct me on it .

 
Group: vintageHO Message: 8137 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Mantua made plastic cars all through the 1960's/early 70's that were very
similar, but they were shorter. they only had a combine, coach and
observation in plastic. When Mantua came back after the Sara Lee years,
they reintroduced the aluminum ones..

FWIW, the mantua plastic cars were a very close match with the late 50's
American Flyer HO cars.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 5:38 PM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??


> Hi Gerold,
>
>
>
> They are listed in the 1989 Walthers catalog as Extruded aluminum bodies.
> I
> did not think these were done in plastic. There is no ATSF listed in this
> catalog either. Could you have gotten American Train and Track cars.
> They
> also have the Budd style roof. Made by Tri-ang of England.
>
>
>
> Take care,
>
>
>
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
Group: vintageHO Message: 8138 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Put on a streamline front like an early Zephyr on an RPO or baggage car, power the front car with a FA1/2 or RS2 or the front truck and motor from one and you'll have a great set of early streamliners of the right sized cars.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 1, 2009, at 3:05 PM, Glenn476 wrote:

Aren't the Mantua cars 60-footers?  The Athearn and some Con-Cor's are 72-footers,   Run with an F-nit not too bad, but with an ALCo PA is marginal and with an E-anything definitely not. 
 
Way Back--in the forties and fifties, there were just the 60-ft shorties and the full-length 85 fts.   gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:34 AM
Subject: RE: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??
Group: vintageHO Message: 8139 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??
You're coming fairly close to the Rio Grande's 1940 (thereabouts) "Prospector"--that was a direct ancestor of the RDC.  Prospector had everything in 2 cars--Loco, baggage, mail, coach, diner, lounge, and sleeper.
 
SP considered a 3-car motor train for the Coast Daylight before they settled on the GS-2's and Pullman-Standard cars. 
 
(A Note--I might be having a couple of RDC ends available--Contact me off-list)  gj
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??

Put on a streamline front like an early Zephyr on an RPO or baggage car, power the front car with a FA1/2 or RS2 or the front truck and motor from one and you'll have a great set of early streamliners of the right sized cars.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 1, 2009, at 3:05 PM, Glenn476 wrote:

Aren't the Mantua cars 60-footers?  The Athearn and some Con-Cor's are 72-footers,   Run with an F-nit not too bad, but with an ALCo PA is marginal and with an E-anything definitely not. 
 
Way Back--in the forties and fifties, there were just the 60-ft shorties and the full-length 85 fts.   gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:34 AM
Subject: RE: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1870 - Release Date: 12/31/2008 8:44 AM
Group: vintageHO Message: 8140 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/1/2009
Subject: Athearn Metal RDC
Attachments :
     
    ----- Original Message -----

        Wanted to share my newest addition to my little collection. This is an Athearn metal RDC-2. It joins the Athearn metal RDC-1 and 3 which I had already. I got this RDC from friend and member Sean N. Had to do very minor work to it. It runs very well and quiet. Body, like a lot of them, over time has started to slightly rust both the inner and outer body, Taking it apart to clean and preserve from further trouble requires some work. Biggest thing is to make sure no shorts occur as the drive and motor is completely isolated from the body other then the wire coming from the front truck for other electrical pickup.
                                                                                   Jim H
    Group: vintageHO Message: 8141 From: John Hagen Date: 1/1/2009
    Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??
    Howard,

    You are correct in that detailing them would ruin them collectability-
    wise. But if that's what you really want to do.... I would if I had a
    string of them.

    I started this reply early in the thread but had my day interrupted.
    So now I get to finish it.

    Mr. Bauers had it correct. The 72' extruded aluminum cars were
    originally introduced in the 50's. Checking HOseeker, the 1958
    passenger car parts lists are for the aluminum streamline cars. That
    list shows the "NMRA" (X2F) couplers, which would have been pretty
    new at that time. Maybe if they came out a year or so earlier they
    would have had the Mantua couplers. I purchased a coach in the 50's
    but do not remember what year or which coupler it came with. Either
    way I replaced them with some dummy's to work with the rest of my
    equipment back then.

    Later, I think during Tyco toyish train time, the plastic 60' cars
    came out. I didn't like them atall. Looked chintzy.

    Once the line returned to the Tyler family and it became Mantua
    again, the aluminum cars were reintroduced. Again on HOseeker I found
    them in the 1980 lists.

    I always knew that there was no true prototype for the cars (I think
    that was mentioned in the Trade Topics write up) but they looked good
    and could be (per Mantua's instructions) polished to resemble
    stainless steel. I always thought that 8 or so polished cars would
    make a very nice looked consist. Don't remember exactly why I never
    acquired any more except that I liked round-end observation cars but
    did not like the abbreviated skirting necessitated by the truck-
    mounted couplers.

    John Hagen

    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Dishman" <holat88@...>
    wrote:
    >
    > I thought that they might be Budd type cars but other than that,
    > needed some confirmation. I found a complete set+ (11 cars) and
    being
    > into vintage trains, was impressed with the quality of machine work
    > done on the fluting, etc.. and rather heavy too. I almost want to
    do
    > some detailing for enhancement but I know that would ruin
    > the "collectable" value completely for someone down the road so
    I'll
    > opt out of that idea.
    > Still, they are impressive on the layout and pull very nicely(all
    > with KDs) behind my Proto ABB set.
    > Thanks to all for setting me straight on these cars.
    > Howard
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@>
    > wrote:
    > >
    > > Hi Howard,
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > The profile is that of a Budd car. The baggage may work for some
    > 72' length
    > > baggage cars, but that will be it. Being short, there is no
    exact
    > prototype
    > > match for them. The diner does not have the normal six big
    windows
    > in the
    > > dinning area, but has a set of three big then three smaller for
    the
    > dining
    > > area and then the kitchen and aisle way windows. The coach would
    > be at
    > > least one big window short for many Budd coaches. Budd plan or
    lot
    > numbers
    > > were unique to each order by a railroad or group of roads. But
    > multiple
    > > plan numbers do have the same side arrangements.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > So they make a nice looking train and could even be mixed with
    > other 72'
    > > cars and still look nice. Just do not get them to close to 85'
    > cars and
    > > some would not notice.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
    > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > _____
    > >
    > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
    [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
    > On Behalf
    > > Of Howard Dishman
    > > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:56 AM
    > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
    > > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Hi Group,
    > > Are the mantua streamline aluminum passenger cars close to
    > prototype
    > > and if so, of what??? I know that they had been shortened to
    > accomodate
    > > the tighter radius track but I have'nt found any other
    information
    > on
    > > them.
    > > Thanks
    > > Howard
    > >
    >
    Group: vintageHO Message: 8142 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/1/2009
    Subject: Re: Mystery brass inspection car??
    Hi Guys!
     
    Thanks so much!  I never knew who made it or what it was called. Neat little piece though. I had a feeling it was Kemtron though.
     
    Thanks so much..
     
    ps: Brian, if you could, I have two Brass steam engines listed as well as a brass New Haven Caboose. I was wondering if you could tell me who made the Mountain and the caboose. I ahev tried and have exhausted all my resources.
     
    I hope everyone had a GREAT & SAFE New Years Day!
     
    Thanks Sean

    --- On Wed, 12/31/08, bslook@... <bslook@...> wrote:
    From: bslook@... <bslook@...>
    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery brass inspection car??
    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Wednesday, December 31, 2008, 8:55 PM

    Sean, I guess I should have told you what it was called in case you want to look it up. It was called "1907 Thomas Flyer" or just "Thomas Flyer"
     
    Best, Brian
     
    In a message dated 12/31/2008 8:41:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com writes:
    Hi Guys,

    I was wondering if anyone knew who made this brass incpection car. I
    have attached a movie to the file section.

    It is:

    Sample of Train Car.avi
    Brass incpection car

    Thanks,
    Sean
    Group: vintageHO Message: 8143 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 1/1/2009
    Subject: Re: Mystery brass inspection car??
    Hi Sean,

    The brass Mountain you have on eBay is an Akane USRA Heavy Mountain.
    I have the light version and I have compared many details between the
    two. Are you sure it doesn't say Akane on the bottom of the tender?
    It might have been painted over.

    Bill DeFoe




    I have two Brass steam engines listed as well as a brass New Haven
    Caboose. I was wondering if you could tell me who made the Mountain
    and the caboose. I ahev tried and have exhausted all my resources.
    >  
    > I hope everyone had a GREAT & SAFE New Years Day!
    >  
    > Thanks Sean
    >
    > --- On Wed, 12/31/08, bslook@... <bslook@...> wrote:
    >
    > From: bslook@... <bslook@...>
    > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery brass inspection car??
    > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
    > Date: Wednesday, December 31, 2008, 8:55 PM
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Sean, I guess I should have told you what it was called in case you
    want to look it up. It was called "1907 Thomas Flyer" or just "Thomas
    Flyer"
    >  
    > Best, Brian
    >  
    >
    > In a message dated 12/31/2008 8:41:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
    a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com writes:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Hi Guys,
    >
    > I was wondering if anyone knew who made this brass incpection car.
    I
    > have attached a movie to the file section.
    >
    > It is:
    >
    > Sample of Train Car.avi
    > Brass incpection car
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Sean
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines.
    >
    Group: vintageHO Message: 8144 From: Peter Nyce Date: 1/1/2009
    Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
    Attachments :
      My Mantua aluminum cars are scale 73' not counting the plastic ends. Overall, they're about scale 76' long.

      I once saw, many years ago, Mantua extruded body tubing offered in 3' actual) lengths. You cut them to your choice of length and drilled and filed the windows where you wanted them. The skirting ran the whole length, which would have been good for Burlington cars, otherwise, you had to cut out the skirts also. Of course, you had to get the ends, window material, and trucks separately. A lot of work, so I didn't try it. I did remove the center skirting for my Southern cars. I used the removed material to fill in the truck cutouts on my CZ cars. It's amazing how much longer the cars appear when you remove the center skirting.

      I believe the plastic cars were slightly shorter, although I never bought any.

      Pete

      At 07:06 PM 1/1/2009, you wrote:

      Aren't the Mantua cars 60-footers?  The Athearn and some Con-Cor's are 72-footers,   Run with an F-nit not too bad, but with an ALCo PA is marginal and with an E-anything definitely not. 
       
      Way Back--in the forties and fifties, there were just the 60-ft shorties and the full-length 85 fts.   gj
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Chuck Higdon
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:34 AM
      Subject: RE: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??

       
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8145 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/1/2009
      Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??
      There's a couple of the aluminum cars in one of my albums in the group photo
      pages
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1431972886/pic/list?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&&dir=asc

      (if the link doesn't work, "zDon dellmann's stuff, miscellaneous passenger
      cars")

      Don

      Don Dellmann
      don.dellmann@...
      http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
      http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
      Owner
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:10 PM
      Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Mantua passenger car... prototype??


      > Howard,
      >
      > You are correct in that detailing them would ruin them collectability-
      > wise. But if that's what you really want to do.... I would if I had a
      > string of them.
      >
      > I started this reply early in the thread but had my day interrupted.
      > So now I get to finish it.
      >
      > Mr. Bauers had it correct. The 72' extruded aluminum cars were
      > originally introduced in the 50's. Checking HOseeker, the 1958
      > passenger car parts lists are for the aluminum streamline cars. That
      > list shows the "NMRA" (X2F) couplers, which would have been pretty
      > new at that time. Maybe if they came out a year or so earlier they
      > would have had the Mantua couplers. I purchased a coach in the 50's
      > but do not remember what year or which coupler it came with. Either
      > way I replaced them with some dummy's to work with the rest of my
      > equipment back then.
      >
      > Later, I think during Tyco toyish train time, the plastic 60' cars
      > came out. I didn't like them atall. Looked chintzy.
      >
      > Once the line returned to the Tyler family and it became Mantua
      > again, the aluminum cars were reintroduced. Again on HOseeker I found
      > them in the 1980 lists.
      >
      > I always knew that there was no true prototype for the cars (I think
      > that was mentioned in the Trade Topics write up) but they looked good
      > and could be (per Mantua's instructions) polished to resemble
      > stainless steel. I always thought that 8 or so polished cars would
      > make a very nice looked consist. Don't remember exactly why I never
      > acquired any more except that I liked round-end observation cars but
      > did not like the abbreviated skirting necessitated by the truck-
      > mounted couplers.
      >
      > John Hagen

      (text bobbitted)
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8146 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/1/2009
      Subject: Re: Mystery brass inspection car??
      Hello Bill,
       
      Thanks so much. You are very correct. I found one currently listed on eBay and it is the same.. No plates on the tender. I looked.
       
      Thanks So mush!
       
      Sean

      --- On Thu, 1/1/09, Bill DeFoe <defoe242@...> wrote:
      From: Bill DeFoe <defoe242@...>
      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery brass inspection car??
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, January 1, 2009, 9:40 PM

      Hi Sean,

      The brass Mountain you have on eBay is an Akane USRA Heavy Mountain.
      I have the light version and I have compared many details between the
      two. Are you sure it doesn't say Akane on the bottom of the tender?
      It might have been painted over.

      Bill DeFoe

      I have two Brass steam engines listed as well as a brass New Haven
      Caboose. I was wondering if you could tell me who made the Mountain
      and the caboose. I ahev tried and have exhausted all my resources.
      >  
      > I hope everyone had a GREAT & SAFE New Years Day!
      >  
      > Thanks Sean
      >
      > --- On Wed, 12/31/08, bslook@... <bslook@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: bslook@... <bslook@...>
      > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery brass inspection car??
      > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
      > Date: Wednesday, December 31, 2008, 8:55 PM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Sean, I guess I should have told you what it was called in case you
      want to look it up. It was called "1907 Thomas Flyer" or just "Thomas
      Flyer"
      >  
      > Best, Brian
      >  
      >
      > In a message dated 12/31/2008 8:41:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com writes:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi Guys,
      >
      > I was wondering if anyone knew who made this brass incpection car.
      I
      > have attached a movie to the file section.
      >
      > It is:
      >
      > Sample of Train Car.avi
      > Brass incpection car
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Sean
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines.
      >
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8147 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 1/1/2009
      Subject: Re: Mystery brass inspection car??
      Hi Sean, the Engine is an Akane Heavy Mountain, imported by both Akane and Gem Models in 1963. Good models, I have a couple of them and they have good detail, but the motors are not spectacular, I switched mine out for can motors long ago. I don't know alot about cabeese, but it appears to be a PRR N-5 steel caboose. A couple of importers sold them, one was LM Blum (LMB) in Shaker Heights, Ohio. Alco Models in New York also imported a couple of versions of the N-5. However, as I said, I'm no expert regarding the hind end of the train. LOL There are probably some PRR guys out there that can correct me if i'm wrong.

      Happy new year, Brian


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 9:18 pm
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery brass inspection car??

      Hi Guys!
       
      Thanks so much!  I never knew who made it or what it was called. Neat little piece though. I had a feeling it was Kemtron though.
       
      Thanks so much..
       
      ps: Brian, if you could, I have two Brass steam engines listed as well as a brass New Haven Caboose. I was wondering if you could tell me who made the Mountain and the caboose. I ahev tried and have exhausted all my resources.
       
      I hope everyone had a GREAT & SAFE New Years Day!
       
      Thanks Sean

      --- On Wed, 12/31/08, bslook@... <bslook@...> wrote:
      From: bslook@... <bslook@...>
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery brass inspection car??
      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
      Date: Wednesday, December 31, 2008, 8:55 PM

      Sean, I guess I should have told you what it was called in case you want to look it up. It was called "1907 Thomas Flyer" or just "Thomas Flyer"
       
      Best, Brian
       
      In a message dated 12/31/2008 8:41:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com writes:
      Hi Guys,

      I was wondering if anyone knew who made this brass incpection car. I
      have attached a movie to the file section.

      It is:

      Sample of Train Car.avi
      Brass incpection car

      Thanks,
      Sean
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8148 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/2/2009
      Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
      Peter Nyce wrote:
      > My Mantua aluminum cars are scale 73' not counting the plastic ends.
      > Overall, they're about scale 76' long.
      >
      > I once saw, many years ago, Mantua extruded body tubing offered in 3'
      > actual) lengths. You cut them to your choice of length and drilled and
      > filed the windows where you wanted them. The skirting ran the whole
      > length, which would have been good for Burlington cars, otherwise, you
      > had to cut out the skirts also. Of course, you had to get the ends,
      > window material, and trucks separately. A lot of work, so I didn't try
      > it. I did remove the center skirting for my Southern cars. I used the
      > removed material to fill in the truck cutouts on my CZ cars. It's
      > amazing how much longer the cars appear when you remove the center
      > skirting.
      >
      > I believe the plastic cars were slightly shorter, although I never
      > bought any.
      >
      > Pete
      There was an article in 1958 ? MR how to build a Pioneer Zephyr from the
      extruded body tubing. I think the person even cut them lenghtwise to
      remove the letterboard, to achieve the lower body profile.

      Will dig out my surviving plastic car to check if its a Tyco.

      Gerold
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8149 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/2/2009
      Subject: Re: Mantua passenger car... prototype??
      I recall that article..........

      I remember it as being the Mantua body shells in the days when you
      could buy blanks from them.

      Some months ago there was discussion of the new makers of the OK
      extruded passenger cars. When I looked them up they have a very
      reasonable price for the extruded blank shells. I think it was well
      under $5 a foot, perhaps $3.

      They have smooth roofs instead of the Mantua fluted roofs and might be
      handy for classic era modeling projects

      Forget what I posted about the roofs, at least some look fluted on the
      site........

      http://www.nancystrains.com/okenginesstreamliners.html

      clean image..

      http://www.nancystrains.com/images/758_46_keep.jpg

      get a load of this pic.........

      http://www.nancystrains.com/images/758_pass_all_of_the.jpg

      THE MAKERS SITE.....

      http://www.okengines.com/products.shtml

      " You may order a sample HO car kit for $20. post paid or get material
      samples of all three body styles for $10."

      Find your way to their catalog and you will see that they have three
      styles [extrusions ? ], and will sell blanks for $3.50 a foot.

      They have reasonable prices for the kit parts as well.


      Best to Ya,
      Mike Bauers
      Milwaukee, Wi


      On Jan 2, 2009, at 2:37 AM, Gerold Eckl wrote:

      > Peter Nyce wrote:
      >> My Mantua aluminum cars are scale 73' not counting the plastic ends.
      >> Overall, they're about scale 76' long.
      >>
      >> I once saw, many years ago, Mantua extruded body tubing offered in 3'
      >> actual) lengths.
      ..................
      > There was an article in 1958 ? MR how to build a Pioneer Zephyr from
      > the
      > extruded body tubing. I think the person even cut them lenghtwise to
      > remove the letterboard, to achieve the lower body profile.
      >
      > Will dig out my surviving plastic car to check if its a Tyco.
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8150 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/3/2009
      Subject: Varney Ore Cars
      Don ( or anyone, really),
       
      Have you assembled the Varney ore car kits that came in the square box? Not the rectangular box with the picture on it. The kits in the rectangular box "snap" together a little more firmly. The ones in the square box don't have the tabs on the pan that align the sides tighter. It looks like I'm going to have to glue the sides to the ends to keep them from gaping and then glue the body to the pan except the pan has to go first because of the tabs on the bottom .... see my dilemma? Help! I'm just not sure what order to build the parts.
       
      Steve
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8151 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/3/2009
      Subject: thank you
      Chuck K,
                   The Athearn large number boards you sent arrived today. Want to thank you since I now will be able to complete the Athearn metal RDC-2 with all the original parts.
                              Jim H
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8152 From: Charles Windes Date: 1/3/2009
      Subject: Re: thank you
      Jim
      I can truely feel the love in the group for the hobby, it is just great the way people pull together, maybe we can get the Jewish and Palistinians together in Model Railroading and make some progress in the peace race.
      Charlie W.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Jim Heckard"
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [vintageHO] thank you
      Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 12:50:24 -0500

      Chuck K,
                   The Athearn large number boards you sent arrived today. Want to thank you since I now will be able to complete the Athearn metal RDC-2 with all the original parts.
                              Jim H

      --
      Be Yourself @ mail.com!
      Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
      Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8153 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/3/2009
      Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
      I'll be honest with you, the last time I put one together I was 12 years
      old. I honestly don't remember from 50 years ago. I seem to recall that
      there WERE round studs at the four corners of the floor though, and it was
      kind of a softer plastic than I was used to.

      Don

      Don Dellmann
      don.dellmann@...
      http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
      http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
      Owner
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 9:58 AM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars


      Don ( or anyone, really),

      Have you assembled the Varney ore car kits that came in the square box? Not
      the rectangular box with the picture on it. The kits in the rectangular box
      "snap" together a little more firmly. The ones in the square box don't have
      the tabs on the pan that align the sides tighter. It looks like I'm going to
      have to glue the sides to the ends to keep them from gaping and then glue
      the body to the pan except the pan has to go first because of the tabs on
      the bottom .... see my dilemma? Help! I'm just not sure what order to build
      the parts.

      Steve
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8154 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/3/2009
      Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
      Yeah, I'm just having trouble getting everything to line up. The studs on the corners are preventing the sides from fitting tight against the pan so there is a gap along the sides. I think I'm going to have to cut off the mounts that go over the studs from the ends and the sides so that I can glue the whole body together before I glue the bottom on. I didn't want to do this much modification to the kits, but they don't seem to go together like the ones in the rectangular boxes.
       
      Steve
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 1:23 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars

      I'll be honest with you, the last time I put one together I was 12 years
      old.  I honestly don't remember from 50 years ago. I seem to recall that
      there WERE round studs at the four corners of the floor though, and it was
      kind of a softer plastic than I was used to.

      Don

      Don Dellmann
      don.dellmann@...
      http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
      http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
      Owner
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 9:58 AM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars


      Don ( or anyone, really),

      Have you assembled the Varney ore car kits that came in the square box? Not
      the rectangular box with the picture on it. The kits in the rectangular box
      "snap" together a little more firmly. The ones in the square box don't have
      the tabs on the pan that align the sides tighter. It looks like I'm going to
      have to glue the sides to the ends to keep them from gaping and then glue
      the body to the pan except the pan has to go first because of the tabs on
      the bottom .... see my dilemma? Help! I'm just not sure what order to build
      the parts.

      Steve


      ------------------------------------

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      Group: vintageHO Message: 8155 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/3/2009
      Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
      As I remember them, the square boxes held one car and were packed to the outer rectangular box.  I used to buy them singly when I had a spare $ in my pocket on a visit to the hobby shop after school.  I don't recall any difference or problem with assembly.  All snap together with self-tap screws in the bottom corners. Late 1950's.  gj
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:58 AM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars

      Don ( or anyone, really),
       
      Have you assembled the Varney ore car kits that came in the square box? Not the rectangular box with the picture on it. The kits in the rectangular box "snap" together a little more firmly. The ones in the square box don't have the tabs on the pan that align the sides tighter. It looks like I'm going to have to glue the sides to the ends to keep them from gaping and then glue the body to the pan except the pan has to go first because of the tabs on the bottom .... see my dilemma? Help! I'm just not sure what order to build the parts.
       
      Steve


      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1872 - Release Date: 1/2/2009 1:10 PM
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8156 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/3/2009
      Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
      Glenn,
      Could you explain your first sentence a little bit? I've got the square box kits and I've got the rectangular box kits. There seems to be a slight difference in the way the kits got together.
       
      Steve
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Glenn476
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:43 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars

      As I remember them, the square boxes held one car and were packed to the outer rectangular box.  I used to buy them singly when I had a spare $ in my pocket on a visit to the hobby shop after school.  I don't recall any difference or problem with assembly.  All snap together with self-tap screws in the bottom corners. Late 1950's.  gj
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:58 AM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars

      Don ( or anyone, really),
       
      Have you assembled the Varney ore car kits that came in the square box? Not the rectangular box with the picture on it. The kits in the rectangular box "snap" together a little more firmly. The ones in the square box don't have the tabs on the pan that align the sides tighter. It looks like I'm going to have to glue the sides to the ends to keep them from gaping and then glue the body to the pan except the pan has to go first because of the tabs on the bottom .... see my dilemma? Help! I'm just not sure what order to build the parts.
       
      Steve


      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1872 - Release Date: 1/2/2009 1:10 PM
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8157 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/3/2009
      Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
      I have ads from the late 1950's showing sold as "sets of 3", which is I
      think what Glenn is talking about. The ones I had were singles, and as I
      recall sold for the princely sum of 50 cents.

      Don

      Don Dellmann
      don.dellmann@...
      http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
      http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
      Owner
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:03 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars


      Glenn,
      Could you explain your first sentence a little bit? I've got the square box
      kits and I've got the rectangular box kits. There seems to be a slight
      difference in the way the kits got together.

      Steve
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Glenn476
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:43 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars


      As I remember them, the square boxes held one car and were packed to the
      outer rectangular box. I used to buy them singly when I had a spare $ in my
      pocket on a visit to the hobby shop after school. I don't recall any
      difference or problem with assembly. All snap together with self-tap screws
      in the bottom corners. Late 1950's. gj
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: My-Yahoo-Groups
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:58 AM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars


      Don ( or anyone, really),

      Have you assembled the Varney ore car kits that came in the square box?
      Not the rectangular box with the picture on it. The kits in the rectangular
      box "snap" together a little more firmly. The ones in the square box don't
      have the tabs on the pan that align the sides tighter. It looks like I'm
      going to have to glue the sides to the ends to keep them from gaping and
      then glue the body to the pan except the pan has to go first because of the
      tabs on the bottom .... see my dilemma? Help! I'm just not sure what order
      to build the parts.

      Steve


      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------



      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1872 - Release Date:
      1/2/2009 1:10 PM
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8158 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/3/2009
      Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
      Back in the late fifties--I was a teenager then with few $$--sometimes I would buy singles on the ore car--Varney packed them in a square box, with three of the square boxes fitting in a rectangular box similar to the box the regular freight car kits came in.  Everything locked together with a #2 self-tapping screw in each bottom corner going through the tabs on the bottom corner of the ends  and sides, into the bottom frame casting.  The inside--hopper slope sheets snapped into the sides--I think there were tabs that held the top corners together.  gj
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 12:03 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars

      Glenn,
      Could you explain your first sentence a little bit? I've got the square box kits and I've got the rectangular box kits. There seems to be a slight difference in the way the kits got together.
       
      Steve
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Glenn476
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:43 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars

      As I remember them, the square boxes held one car and were packed to the outer rectangular box.  I used to buy them singly when I had a spare $ in my pocket on a visit to the hobby shop after school.  I don't recall any difference or problem with assembly.  All snap together with self-tap screws in the bottom corners. Late 1950's.  gj
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:58 AM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars

      Don ( or anyone, really),
       
      Have you assembled the Varney ore car kits that came in the square box? Not the rectangular box with the picture on it. The kits in the rectangular box "snap" together a little more firmly. The ones in the square box don't have the tabs on the pan that align the sides tighter. It looks like I'm going to have to glue the sides to the ends to keep them from gaping and then glue the body to the pan except the pan has to go first because of the tabs on the bottom .... see my dilemma? Help! I'm just not sure what order to build the parts.
       
      Steve


      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1872 - Release Date: 1/2/2009 1:10 PM


      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1872 - Release Date: 1/2/2009 1:10 PM
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8159 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/3/2009
      Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
      I think they were $2.95 for the 3-pack, $1 each. Varney's trucks sere 50
      cents then. fully assembled with springs, and one-piece wheelsets cast in
      Nylon--with flanges that could double as pizza cutters.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 12:29 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars


      >I have ads from the late 1950's showing sold as "sets of 3", which is I
      > think what Glenn is talking about. The ones I had were singles, and as I
      > recall sold for the princely sum of 50 cents.
      >
      > Don
      >
      > Don Dellmann
      > don.dellmann@...
      > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
      > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
      > Owner
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
      > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:03 PM
      > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars
      >
      >
      > Glenn,
      > Could you explain your first sentence a little bit? I've got the square
      > box
      > kits and I've got the rectangular box kits. There seems to be a slight
      > difference in the way the kits got together.
      >
      > Steve
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Glenn476
      > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:43 PM
      > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars
      >
      >
      > As I remember them, the square boxes held one car and were packed to the
      > outer rectangular box. I used to buy them singly when I had a spare $ in
      > my
      > pocket on a visit to the hobby shop after school. I don't recall any
      > difference or problem with assembly. All snap together with self-tap
      > screws
      > in the bottom corners. Late 1950's. gj
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: My-Yahoo-Groups
      > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:58 AM
      > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars
      >
      >
      > Don ( or anyone, really),
      >
      > Have you assembled the Varney ore car kits that came in the square box?
      > Not the rectangular box with the picture on it. The kits in the
      > rectangular
      > box "snap" together a little more firmly. The ones in the square box don't
      > have the tabs on the pan that align the sides tighter. It looks like I'm
      > going to have to glue the sides to the ends to keep them from gaping and
      > then glue the body to the pan except the pan has to go first because of
      > the
      > tabs on the bottom .... see my dilemma? Help! I'm just not sure what order
      > to build the parts.
      >
      > Steve
      >
      >
      > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >
      >
      > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1872 - Release Date:
      > 1/2/2009 1:10 PM
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >


      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1872 - Release Date: 1/2/2009
      1:10 PM
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8160 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/3/2009
      Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
      The square box kit doesn't have a kit number on the box. The instruction sheet is a full size (8 1/2 x 11) sheet of paper with a photo of a Varney Ore Train - Three Gorre & Daphited ore cars, a Varney Dockside engine and a caboose. The flip side has an ad for the Dockside kit #2670K $15.00 "Lil Joe". The kit itself is black, undec.
       
      Steve
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 3:29 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars

      I have ads from the late 1950's showing sold as "sets of 3", which is I
      think what Glenn is talking about.  The ones I had were singles, and as I
      recall sold for the princely sum of 50 cents.

      Don

      Don Dellmann
      don.dellmann@...
      http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
      http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
      Owner
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:03 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars


      Glenn,
      Could you explain your first sentence a little bit? I've got the square box
      kits and I've got the rectangular box kits. There seems to be a slight
      difference in the way the kits got together.

      Steve
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Glenn476
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:43 PM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars


        As I remember them, the square boxes held one car and were packed to the
      outer rectangular box.  I used to buy them singly when I had a spare $ in my
      pocket on a visit to the hobby shop after school.  I don't recall any
      difference or problem with assembly.  All snap together with self-tap screws
      in the bottom corners. Late 1950's.  gj
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: My-Yahoo-Groups
          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:58 AM
          Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars


          Don ( or anyone, really),

          Have you assembled the Varney ore car kits that came in the square box?
      Not the rectangular box with the picture on it. The kits in the rectangular
      box "snap" together a little more firmly. The ones in the square box don't
      have the tabs on the pan that align the sides tighter. It looks like I'm
      going to have to glue the sides to the ends to keep them from gaping and
      then glue the body to the pan except the pan has to go first because of the
      tabs on the bottom .... see my dilemma? Help! I'm just not sure what order
      to build the parts.

          Steve


      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------



          No virus found in this incoming message.
          Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
          Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1872 - Release Date:
      1/2/2009 1:10 PM



      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links

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      Group: vintageHO Message: 8161 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 1/3/2009
      Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
      I had a set of those as a kid about 1958. Still have a few parts.
       
      Mine were gray undecorated. Four screws in the corners, two for the trucks. I don't remember anything abut a "fit" problem, but the at 12 years of age, I wasn't exactly fussy...
       
      Loved the "pizza cutter" comment about the Varney's flanges! So true...
       
      Especially when I found out about Mantua and while better, they still had their problems. Then... I "discovered" Athearn and seldom got anything else until I was in my late teens and got a few craftsman kits.(One at a time on my very limited allowance and lawn-mowing money.)
       
      Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

      --- On Sat, 1/3/09, My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
      From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 3:46 PM

      The square box kit doesn't have a kit number on the box. The instruction sheet is a full size (8 1/2 x 11) sheet of paper with a photo of a Varney Ore Train - Three Gorre & Daphited ore cars, a Varney Dockside engine and a caboose. The flip side has an ad for the Dockside kit #2670K $15.00 "Lil Joe". The kit itself is black, undec.
       
      Steve
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 3:29 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars

      I have ads from the late 1950's showing sold as "sets of 3", which is I
      think what Glenn is talking about.  The ones I had were singles, and as I
      recall sold for the princely sum of 50 cents.

      Don

      Don Dellmann
      don.dellmann@...
      http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
      http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
      Owner
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:03 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars


      Glenn,
      Could you explain your first sentence a little bit? I've got the square box
      kits and I've got the rectangular box kits. There seems to be a slight
      difference in the way the kits got together.

      Steve
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Glenn476
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:43 PM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars


        As I remember them, the square boxes held one car and were packed to the
      outer rectangular box.  I used to buy them singly when I had a spare $ in my
      pocket on a visit to the hobby shop after school.  I don't recall any
      difference or problem with assembly.  All snap together with self-tap screws
      in the bottom corners. Late 1950's.  gj
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: My-Yahoo-Groups
          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:58 AM
          Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars


          Don ( or anyone, really),

          Have you assembled the Varney ore car kits that came in the square box?
      Not the rectangular box with the picture on it. The kits in the rectangular
      box "snap" together a little more firmly. The ones in the square box don't
      have the tabs on the pan that align the sides tighter. It looks like I'm
      going to have to glue the sides to the ends to keep them from gaping and
      then glue the body to the pan except the pan has to go first because of the
      tabs on the bottom .... see my dilemma? Help! I'm just not sure what order
      to build the parts.

          Steve


      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------



          No virus found in this incoming message.
          Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
          Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1872 - Release Date:
      1/2/2009 1:10 PM



      ------------------------------------

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      Group: vintageHO Message: 8162 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/3/2009
      Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
      I've got a couple of the gray undec - they are individual cars that are in the small rectangular boxes. These are the ones I'm not having problems assembling. These have small tabs on the pan that snap over the sides, keeping the sides tight without any gaps. It's those tabs that aren't on the individual cars that are in the small square boxes that I'm having problems with.
       
      Steve
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 4:28 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars

      I had a set of those as a kid about 1958. Still have a few parts.
       
      Mine were gray undecorated. Four screws in the corners, two for the trucks. I don't remember anything abut a "fit" problem, but the at 12 years of age, I wasn't exactly fussy...
       
      Loved the "pizza cutter" comment about the Varney's flanges! So true...
       
      Especially when I found out about Mantua and while better, they still had their problems. Then... I "discovered" Athearn and seldom got anything else until I was in my late teens and got a few craftsman kits.(One at a time on my very limited allowance and lawn-mowing money.)
       
      Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

      --- On Sat, 1/3/09, My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
      From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 3:46 PM

      The square box kit doesn't have a kit number on the box. The instruction sheet is a full size (8 1/2 x 11) sheet of paper with a photo of a Varney Ore Train - Three Gorre & Daphited ore cars, a Varney Dockside engine and a caboose. The flip side has an ad for the Dockside kit #2670K $15.00 "Lil Joe". The kit itself is black, undec.
       
      Steve
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 3:29 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars

      I have ads from the late 1950's showing sold as "sets of 3", which is I
      think what Glenn is talking about.  The ones I had were singles, and as I
      recall sold for the princely sum of 50 cents.

      Don

      Don Dellmann
      don.dellmann@...
      http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
      http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
      Owner
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:03 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars


      Glenn,
      Could you explain your first sentence a little bit? I've got the square box
      kits and I've got the rectangular box kits. There seems to be a slight
      difference in the way the kits got together.

      Steve
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Glenn476
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:43 PM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars


        As I remember them, the square boxes held one car and were packed to the
      outer rectangular box.  I used to buy them singly when I had a spare $ in my
      pocket on a visit to the hobby shop after school.  I don't recall any
      difference or problem with assembly.  All snap together with self-tap screws
      in the bottom corners. Late 1950's.  gj
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: My-Yahoo-Groups
          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:58 AM
          Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars


          Don ( or anyone, really),

          Have you assembled the Varney ore car kits that came in the square box?
      Not the rectangular box with the picture on it. The kits in the rectangular
      box "snap" together a little more firmly. The ones in the square box don't
      have the tabs on the pan that align the sides tighter. It looks like I'm
      going to have to glue the sides to the ends to keep them from gaping and
      then glue the body to the pan except the pan has to go first because of the
      tabs on the bottom .... see my dilemma? Help! I'm just not sure what order
      to build the parts.

          Steve


      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------



          No virus found in this incoming message.
          Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
          Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1872 - Release Date:
      1/2/2009 1:10 PM



      ------------------------------------

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      Group: vintageHO Message: 8163 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 1/3/2009
      Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
      Gee... my three undec gray cars WERE in square boxes for $1 each, IIRC.

      --- On Sat, 1/3/09, My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
      From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 5:08 PM

      I've got a couple of the gray undec - they are individual cars that are in the small rectangular boxes. These are the ones I'm not having problems assembling. These have small tabs on the pan that snap over the sides, keeping the sides tight without any gaps. It's those tabs that aren't on the individual cars that are in the small square boxes that I'm having problems with.
       
      Steve
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 4:28 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars

      I had a set of those as a kid about 1958. Still have a few parts.
       
      Mine were gray undecorated. Four screws in the corners, two for the trucks. I don't remember anything abut a "fit" problem, but the at 12 years of age, I wasn't exactly fussy...
       
      Loved the "pizza cutter" comment about the Varney's flanges! So true...
       
      Especially when I found out about Mantua and while better, they still had their problems. Then... I "discovered" Athearn and seldom got anything else until I was in my late teens and got a few craftsman kits.(One at a time on my very limited allowance and lawn-mowing money.)
       
      Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

      --- On Sat, 1/3/09, My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
      From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 3:46 PM

      The square box kit doesn't have a kit number on the box. The instruction sheet is a full size (8 1/2 x 11) sheet of paper with a photo of a Varney Ore Train - Three Gorre & Daphited ore cars, a Varney Dockside engine and a caboose. The flip side has an ad for the Dockside kit #2670K $15.00 "Lil Joe". The kit itself is black, undec.
       
      Steve
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 3:29 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars

      I have ads from the late 1950's showing sold as "sets of 3", which is I
      think what Glenn is talking about.  The ones I had were singles, and as I
      recall sold for the princely sum of 50 cents.

      Don

      Don Dellmann
      don.dellmann@...
      http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
      http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
      Owner
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:03 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars


      Glenn,
      Could you explain your first sentence a little bit? I've got the square box
      kits and I've got the rectangular box kits. There seems to be a slight
      difference in the way the kits got together.

      Steve
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Glenn476
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:43 PM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars


        As I remember them, the square boxes held one car and were packed to the
      outer rectangular box.  I used to buy them singly when I had a spare $ in my
      pocket on a visit to the hobby shop after school.  I don't recall any
      difference or problem with assembly.  All snap together with self-tap screws
      in the bottom corners. Late 1950's.  gj
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: My-Yahoo-Groups
          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:58 AM
          Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars


          Don ( or anyone, really),

          Have you assembled the Varney ore car kits that came in the square box?
      Not the rectangular box with the picture on it. The kits in the rectangular
      box "snap" together a little more firmly. The ones in the square box don't
      have the tabs on the pan that align the sides tighter. It looks like I'm
      going to have to glue the sides to the ends to keep them from gaping and
      then glue the body to the pan except the pan has to go first because of the
      tabs on the bottom .... see my dilemma? Help! I'm just not sure what order
      to build the parts.

          Steve


      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------



          No virus found in this incoming message.
          Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
          Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1872 - Release Date:
      1/2/2009 1:10 PM



      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links

      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

      <*> Your email settings:
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      <*> To change settings online go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join
          (Yahoo! ID required)

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      Group: vintageHO Message: 8164 From: Karl Peters Date: 1/4/2009
      Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
      Did Varney change the design of the kits over time?  Of the have dozen I have right at hand, all have a round post in the corner, in which both the side and ends fit over. The only screws are for the trucks and couplers.
       
      Has anyone ever fitted Kadee's to these cars? And if so, how did you do it?
       
      All these cars were purchased used, "assembled" and usually have broken steps and other missing pieces, so they will be fixed up to run with my MDC fleet. I also have about a have dozen unassembled kits that I am willing to part with; if intrested please contact me OFF-LIST.
       
      Thank you,
      Karl Peters
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8165 From: Charles Windes Date: 1/4/2009
      Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
      Some of the old kits I assembled would not go one way I had to turn them completely end around to slip them together.
      Charlie W.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Glenn476"
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars
      Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 11:43:40 -0800

      As I remember them, the square boxes held one car and were packed to the outer rectangular box.  I used to buy them singly when I had a spare $ in my pocket on a visit to the hobby shop after school.  I don't recall any difference or problem with assembly.  All snap together with self-tap screws in the bottom corners. Late 1950's.  gj
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:58 AM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Ore Cars

      Don ( or anyone, really),
       
      Have you assembled the Varney ore car kits that came in the square box? Not the rectangular box with the picture on it. The kits in the rectangular box "snap" together a little more firmly. The ones in the square box don't have the tabs on the pan that align the sides tighter. It looks like I'm going to have to glue the sides to the ends to keep them from gaping and then glue the body to the pan except the pan has to go first because of the tabs on the bottom .... see my dilemma? Help! I'm just not sure what order to build the parts.
       
      Steve


      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1872 - Release Date: 1/2/2009 1:10 PM


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      Group: vintageHO Message: 8166 From: oahurailway Date: 1/4/2009
      Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-
      groups@...> wrote:
      >
      > Don ( or anyone, really),
      >
      > Have you assembled the Varney ore car kits that came in the square
      box? Not the rectangular box with the picture on it. The kits in the
      rectangular box "snap" together a little more firmly. The ones in the
      square box don't have the tabs on the pan that align the sides
      tighter. It looks like I'm going to have to glue the sides to the
      ends to keep them from gaping and then glue the body to the pan
      except the pan has to go first because of the tabs on the bottom ....
      see my dilemma? Help! I'm just not sure what order to build the parts.
      >
      > Steve


      Steve,

      I've added a pic of the three types of Varney ore cars which were
      produced between 1949-1964, at my album on the second page of
      the "photos" section entitled "1941 Varney 6V Dockside" by
      oahurailway. It's the last pic titled "Varney Ore Cars".

      1. Top car is the Varney all die-cast Zamac one (2260 series)
      produced between 1949-1953 for #1.95 ea. Floor piece part was
      numbered #2006; Slope sheet pan #2007; ends #2008; & sides #2009,
      which were the part numbers used until the end. The original all die-
      cast car had its sides/ends attached to the bottom with self-tapping
      screws, the truck bolsters were bored for insulating plastic bosses,
      & couplers were mounted to the frame in front of the bolsters with
      self tapping screws.
      #2260, undecorated
      #2260C, #114191 Canadian National
      #2260CNW, #118923 Chicago & North Western
      #2260U, #1299 Utah Copper

      2. Middle car is the Varney all plastic one, 0-1 thru 0-6 (same
      part numbers), produced between 1953-1960, which had the "studs" on
      the floor corners which the sides & ends were cemented to, instead of
      the self tapping screw holes, & hopper pocket snapped into place.
      Couplers were mounted the same way as the die-cast car with self
      tapping screws. This car sold for $0.98 ea.
      0-1, undecorated red plastic.
      0-2, undecorated gray plastic.
      0-3, undecorated black plastic.
      0-4, #114191 Canadian National
      0-5, #118923 Chicago & North Western
      0-6, #1299 Utah Copper

      3. Bottom car is the Varney all plastic one with unpainted die-cast
      bottom (drilled for truck screws but not bored for plastic insulating
      bosses, & had pre-drilled coupler mounting holes), OM-1 thru OM-3 &
      OM-10 thru OM-15, produced between 1960-1964 for $0.98 to $1.19 ea.
      Same construction as above.
      OM-1, undecorated, rust colored plastic
      OM-2, undecorated, gray colored plastic
      OM-3, undecorated, brown colored plastic
      OM-10, #8086 Birmingham Southern
      OM-11, #31016 Duluth, Missabe & Iron Range
      OM-12, #75001 Milwaukee Road
      OM-13, #114191 Canadian National
      OM-14, #118923 Chicago & North Western
      OM-15, #1299 Utah Copper


      4. Car to the right side is the very simular one produced by
      Roundhouse. Its die-cast bottom piece has studs that mount into
      corresponding holes in the plastic sides of the one piece body
      casting. Note the die-cast frame has molded coupler pockets. None of
      the Roundhouse parts are interchangeable with the Varney's.

      No simulated "loads" were produced by Varney for the ore cars as
      was the case with the hopper cars.

      Kadee couplers can be merely mounted with a screw & no spring since
      the cars are only a scale 18.5' & close coupled.

      On a string of these, Varney dummy couplers can also be used on all
      of the middle cars in the consist, with a Kadee mounted to the
      outside car ends, for automatic coupling/uncoupling of the entire
      consist.

      Hope this helps....

      Ken
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8167 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/4/2009
      Subject: Re: Varney Ore Cars
      Ken,
       
      Yes, it helps some, but .... I got five of them recently. Three came in a small rectangular box with a photo of the car on the top and have the #0-2 (Black, undec). These cars, the sides of the pan #2007 have little tabs that the sides #2009 snap into when assembled to hold the sides tight to the pan. Two of the kits came in small square boxes without numbers. These cars the pan does not  have the tabs to hold the sides tight. The first three I can "snap" together without glue, but the other two, without the tabs, look like I'm going to need to glue them. It just seems that I will need three hands to hold, align and glue .... I was wondering if anyone has experience with these that might have some suggestions on assembly.
       
      Steve
       
      P.S. I'm going to see if I can't get my new Christmas present digital camera working and get some shots of the boxes and cars to upload.
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 7:14 PM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Ore Cars

      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-
      groups@...> wrote:
      >
      > Don ( or anyone, really),
      >
      > Have you assembled the Varney ore car kits that came in the square
      box? Not the rectangular box with the picture on it. The kits in the
      rectangular box "snap" together a little more firmly. The ones in the
      square box don't have the tabs on the pan that align the sides
      tighter. It looks like I'm going to have to glue the sides to the
      ends to keep them from gaping and then glue the body to the pan
      except the pan has to go first because of the tabs on the bottom ....
      see my dilemma? Help! I'm just not sure what order to build the parts.
      >
      > Steve


        Steve,

        I've added a pic of the three types of Varney ore cars which were
      produced between 1949-1964, at my album on the second page of
      the "photos" section entitled "1941 Varney 6V Dockside" by
      oahurailway. It's the last pic titled "Varney Ore Cars".

        1. Top car is the Varney all die-cast Zamac one (2260 series)
      produced between 1949-1953 for #1.95 ea. Floor piece part was
      numbered #2006; Slope sheet pan #2007; ends #2008; & sides #2009,
      which were the part numbers used until the end. The original all die-
      cast car had its sides/ends attached to the bottom with self-tapping
      screws, the truck bolsters were bored for insulating plastic bosses,
      & couplers were mounted to the frame in front of the bolsters with
      self tapping screws.
      #2260, undecorated
      #2260C, #114191 Canadian National
      #2260CNW, #118923 Chicago & North Western
      #2260U, #1299 Utah Copper

        2. Middle car is the Varney all plastic one, 0-1 thru 0-6 (same
      part numbers), produced between 1953-1960, which had the "studs" on
      the floor corners which the sides & ends were cemented to, instead of
      the self tapping screw holes, & hopper pocket snapped into place.
      Couplers were mounted the same way as the die-cast car with self
      tapping screws. This car sold for $0.98 ea.
      0-1, undecorated red plastic.
      0-2, undecorated gray plastic.
      0-3, undecorated black plastic.
      0-4, #114191 Canadian National
      0-5, #118923 Chicago & North Western
      0-6, #1299 Utah Copper

        3. Bottom car is the Varney all plastic one with unpainted die-cast
      bottom (drilled for truck screws but not bored for plastic insulating
      bosses, & had pre-drilled coupler mounting holes), OM-1 thru OM-3 &
      OM-10 thru OM-15, produced between 1960-1964 for $0.98 to $1.19 ea.
      Same construction as above.
      OM-1, undecorated, rust colored plastic
      OM-2, undecorated, gray colored plastic
      OM-3, undecorated, brown colored plastic
      OM-10, #8086 Birmingham Southern
      OM-11, #31016 Duluth, Missabe & Iron Range
      OM-12, #75001 Milwaukee Road
      OM-13, #114191 Canadian National
      OM-14, #118923 Chicago & North Western
      OM-15, #1299 Utah Copper


        4. Car to the right side is the very simular one produced by
      Roundhouse. Its die-cast bottom piece has studs that mount into
      corresponding holes in the plastic sides of the one piece body
      casting. Note the die-cast frame has molded coupler pockets. None of
      the Roundhouse parts are interchangeable with the Varney's.

        No simulated "loads" were produced by Varney for the ore cars as
      was the case with the hopper cars.

        Kadee couplers can be merely mounted with a screw & no spring since
      the cars are only a scale 18.5' & close coupled.

        On a string of these, Varney dummy couplers can also be used on all
      of the middle cars in the consist, with a Kadee mounted to the
      outside car ends, for automatic coupling/uncoupling of the entire
      consist.

      Hope this helps....

      Ken





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      Group: vintageHO Message: 8168 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/5/2009
      Subject: More Vids
      Hi Ya'll,
       
      Here are some of my latest videos, some even actually include HO trains...:o)
       
      Gary W
       
       
       
       
       
      Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

      Group: vintageHO Message: 8169 From: John Hagen Date: 1/6/2009
      Subject: Roundhouse 0-6-0
      Group,

      I find myself in need of some of the dimensions of a Roundhouse 0-6-0.
      The dimensions I need are the smoke box/boiler diameter, length of the
      boiler and smoke box from the front of the cab and the length and
      height of the cab. The measurements may be in which ever format you
      prefer; actual inches in fractions, actual inches in decimals, actual
      mm's or in HO scale feet & inches. I would like them to be + or - 2 or
      so scale inches please.

      Any help on this will be greatly appreciated.

      John Hagen,
      Saint Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8170 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/7/2009
      Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0
      If I don't get back to you by tomorrow afternoon remind me--I have a couple
      of them-- but right now they are in another building and it is cold and wet
      between. gj
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 10:19 PM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Roundhouse 0-6-0


      > Group,
      >
      > I find myself in need of some of the dimensions of a Roundhouse 0-6-0.
      > The dimensions I need are the smoke box/boiler diameter, length of the
      > boiler and smoke box from the front of the cab and the length and
      > height of the cab. The measurements may be in which ever format you
      > prefer; actual inches in fractions, actual inches in decimals, actual
      > mm's or in HO scale feet & inches. I would like them to be + or - 2 or
      > so scale inches please.
      >
      > Any help on this will be greatly appreciated.
      >
      > John Hagen,
      > Saint Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >


      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.3/1879 - Release Date: 1/6/2009
      5:16 PM
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8171 From: John Hagen Date: 1/7/2009
      Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0
      Thanks, Glenn.

      Will do.

      John

      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
      >
      > If I don't get back to you by tomorrow afternoon remind me--I have a
      couple
      > of them-- but right now they are in another building and it is cold
      and wet
      > between. gj
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8172 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/7/2009
      Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0
      John--here goes:
      smokebox diameter 5'7", 0.776"
      Boiler diameter just behind SB 5'9", 0.802"
      Cab to front of boiler jacket 16'7"
      Cab to front of SB 22'3"
      Cab length 8'
      Cab Height 6'3" from bottom to eave.

      Hope this helps--the tools and loco are still out on the bench. These
      measurements from a 1950's version with the one-piece cab. I also have a
      1948 version still in kit form that has the cab in several parts.

      gj
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 10:19 PM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Roundhouse 0-6-0


      > Group,
      >
      > I find myself in need of some of the dimensions of a Roundhouse 0-6-0.
      > The dimensions I need are the smoke box/boiler diameter, length of the
      > boiler and smoke box from the front of the cab and the length and
      > height of the cab. The measurements may be in which ever format you
      > prefer; actual inches in fractions, actual inches in decimals, actual
      > mm's or in HO scale feet & inches. I would like them to be + or - 2 or
      > so scale inches please.
      >
      > Any help on this will be greatly appreciated.
      >
      > John Hagen,
      > Saint Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >


      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.3/1879 - Release Date: 1/6/2009
      5:16 PM
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8173 From: John Hagen Date: 1/7/2009
      Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0
      Helps a bunch. Thank you so much Glenn.

      I am beginning construction of a model of Green Bay and Western's #60
      (145). I am using Mantua frames (takes 2 to do it) but their boiler
      is totally wrong. Looking at the Roundhouse it looks right but I
      needed to know it's dimensions before jumping into buying one. My
      biggest concern was the diameter and since the Roundhouse scales out
      to 67.5", only 3" oversize, I think I have a winner. Especially since
      the 64.5" figure I came up with is very much an interpolation of a
      photo. I will check the other dimensions when I have time but I don't
      think I'll come any closer without scratch building one.

      Maybe I'll eventually build a model of the #40 and try scratching one
      up.

      John Hagen

      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
      >
      > John--here goes:
      > smokebox diameter 5'7", 0.776"
      > Boiler diameter just behind SB 5'9", 0.802"
      > Cab to front of boiler jacket 16'7"
      > Cab to front of SB 22'3"
      > Cab length 8'
      > Cab Height 6'3" from bottom to eave.
      >
      > Hope this helps--the tools and loco are still out on the bench.
      These
      > measurements from a 1950's version with the one-piece cab. I also
      have a
      > 1948 version still in kit form that has the cab in several parts.
      >
      > gj
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8174 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/7/2009
      Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0
      Glad to help out--I have always considered the Mantua steam locos to be
      mostly "generics" although some come close to actual prototypes--I have a
      4-8-0 that comes quite close to a CP/SP loco--ran it mostly stock on Harold
      Dolstad's layout for many years--have it in a box with an MDC "Harriman" cab
      and vandy tender to modernize it gj
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:18 AM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0


      > Helps a bunch. Thank you so much Glenn.
      >
      > I am beginning construction of a model of Green Bay and Western's #60
      > (145). I am using Mantua frames (takes 2 to do it) but their boiler
      > is totally wrong. Looking at the Roundhouse it looks right but I
      > needed to know it's dimensions before jumping into buying one. My
      > biggest concern was the diameter and since the Roundhouse scales out
      > to 67.5", only 3" oversize, I think I have a winner. Especially since
      > the 64.5" figure I came up with is very much an interpolation of a
      > photo. I will check the other dimensions when I have time but I don't
      > think I'll come any closer without scratch building one.
      >
      > Maybe I'll eventually build a model of the #40 and try scratching one
      > up.
      >
      > John Hagen
      >
      > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> John--here goes:
      >> smokebox diameter 5'7", 0.776"
      >> Boiler diameter just behind SB 5'9", 0.802"
      >> Cab to front of boiler jacket 16'7"
      >> Cab to front of SB 22'3"
      >> Cab length 8'
      >> Cab Height 6'3" from bottom to eave.
      >>
      >> Hope this helps--the tools and loco are still out on the bench.
      > These
      >> measurements from a 1950's version with the one-piece cab. I also
      > have a
      >> 1948 version still in kit form that has the cab in several parts.
      >>
      >> gj
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >


      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.4/1880 - Release Date: 1/7/2009
      8:49 AM
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8175 From: Morgan Smith Date: 1/7/2009
      Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0


      From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, January 7, 2009 2:18:08 PM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0

      Helps a bunch. Thank you so much Glenn.

      I am beginning construction of a model of Green Bay and Western's #60
      (145). I am using Mantua frames (takes 2 to do it) but their boiler
      is totally wrong. Looking at the Roundhouse it looks right but I
      needed to know it's dimensions before jumping into buying one. My
      biggest concern was the diameter and since the Roundhouse scales out
      to 67.5", only 3" oversize, I think I have a winner. Especially since
      the 64.5" figure I came up with is very much an interpolation of a
      photo. I will check the other dimensions when I have time but I don't
      think I'll come any closer without scratch building one.

      Maybe I'll eventually build a model of the #40 and try scratching one
      up.

      John Hagen

      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote:

      >
      > John--here goes:
      > smokebox diameter 5'7", 0.776"
      > Boiler diameter just behind SB 5'9", 0.802"
      > Cab to front of boiler jacket 16'7"
      > Cab to front of SB 22'3"
      > Cab length 8'
      > Cab Height 6'3" from bottom to eave.
      >
      > Hope this helps--the tools and loco are still out on the bench.
      These
      > measurements from a 1950's version with the one-piece cab. I also
      have a
      > 1948 version still in kit form that has the cab in several parts.
      >
      > gj
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8176 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/7/2009
      Subject: Proper Jewel colors on steam engines and Cabeese lanterns

      Hi Guys,

      I was wondering what the proper/typical colors of jewels I would need to use on the front & rear of both steam engines, tenders and cabeese.

      Thanks,

      Sean
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8177 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 1/7/2009
      Subject: Re: Proper Jewel colors on steam engines and Cabeese lanterns
      Front of engines are class lamps, not marker lights. (flags would be used during daylight, lamps at night)

      Blank/no light: regularly scheduled train, running according to the timetable, under the authority of the timetable.

      Green light: A section following this train -- when a train had too many cars for the engine (or engines) to pull the dispatcher would order it to run in  sections.  If,  the train, number 50, leaving at 10 AM needed 99 cars to hall the load & the engines available could only move 33 cars, the train would run in 3 sections. The First #50 would run on the schedule published in the timetable, under it's train number . It would carry green class lamps  to show that another section followed. Second # 50 would run a set amount of time behind first #50, and also carry green class lamps.  Third #50 would run a set amount of time behind second #50, but it would not carry any class lamps/flags as it was the last section of #50

      White lights: an extra train, not on the timetable. It would run by train orders. Most frights ran this way.

      Marker lamps on the end of the train varied by railroad. Some used green to the side, red to the rear, others used red to the rear & amber to the side. There may be other combinations. On the Santa Fe when a train was stopped on a siding & the track set so trains on the mainline would pass safely the markers would be turned so the red was toward the waycar (caboose).

      Willard




      At 10:17 PM 1/7/2009, you wrote:

      Hi Guys,

      I was wondering what the proper/typical colors of jewels I would need to use on the front & rear of both steam engines, tenders and cabeese.

      Thanks,

      Sean
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8178 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/7/2009
      Subject: Re: Proper Jewel colors on steam engines and Cabeese lanterns
      Wow!
       
      I never would have thought it was so involved.. Thanks so much for the information!
       
      I forwarded this to the fellow who asked me..
      Thanks!
       
      Sean

      --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Willard Seehorn <wseehorn@...> wrote:
      From: Willard Seehorn <wseehorn@...>
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Proper Jewel colors on steam engines and Cabeese lanterns
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 10:54 PM

      Front of engines are class lamps, not marker lights. (flags would be used during daylight, lamps at night)

      Blank/no light: regularly scheduled train, running according to the timetable, under the authority of the timetable.

      Green light: A section following this train -- when a train had too many cars for the engine (or engines) to pull the dispatcher would order it to run in  sections.  If,  the train, number 50, leaving at 10 AM needed 99 cars to hall the load & the engines available could only move 33 cars, the train would run in 3 sections. The First #50 would run on the schedule published in the timetable, under it's train number . It would carry green class lamps  to show that another section followed. Second # 50 would run a set amount of time behind first #50, and also carry green class lamps.  Third #50 would run a set amount of time behind second #50, but it would not carry any class lamps/flags as it was the last section of #50

      White lights: an extra train, not on the timetable. It would run by train orders. Most frights ran this way.

      Marker lamps on the end of the train varied by railroad. Some used green to the side, red to the rear, others used red to the rear & amber to the side. There may be other combinations. On the Santa Fe when a train was stopped on a siding & the track set so trains on the mainline would pass safely the markers would be turned so the red was toward the waycar (caboose).

      Willard




      At 10:17 PM 1/7/2009, you wrote:

      Hi Guys,

      I was wondering what the proper/typical colors of jewels I would need to use on the front & rear of both steam engines, tenders and cabeese.

      Thanks,

      Sean

      Group: vintageHO Message: 8179 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/8/2009
      Subject: Re: Proper Jewel colors on steam engines and Cabeese lanterns
      On the locomotives:
       
      Classification lamps, you can't go wrong with white/clear.  These are lighted only if the train is an "Extra" (white, train not listed in the timetable) or has a section following (green, except the last  is the "official" train, and the lamps are dark. )  Green will not show if the lamp is not lit as the color comes from a moveable lens plate inside the lamp.This at least applies to electric class lamps. I have several. 
       
      Marker Lamps:  These "mark" the rear of a train.  On a light engine, they would be displayed to whichever is the rear relative to the direction of travel. Red is ordinarily displayed to the rear to indicate to following trains that there is a train ahead of them.  These can be turned in their brackets, so that if the train enters a siding to wait for another train, the red is showing to the car side and either green (most roads) or yellow (PRR, Santa Fe, and Rio Grande as far as I know) according to the road's standard practices shows to the rear. 
       
      So, I would recommend clear jewels in the class lamps on the front, and RGGG or RYYY markers on the rear.
       
      Flags may be displayed  for any of the above in daylight hours.  gj 
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 7:17 PM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Proper Jewel colors on steam engines and Cabeese lanterns

      Hi Guys,

      I was wondering what the proper/typical colors of jewels I would need to use on the front & rear of both steam engines, tenders and cabeese.

      Thanks,

      Sean


      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.4/1880 - Release Date: 1/7/2009 8:49 AM
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8180 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/8/2009
      Subject: Re: Proper Jewel colors on steam engines and Cabeese lanterns
      A follow-up--the Harriman Roads (SP, UP, Alton, and some others) displayed the train number in indicator boards ("Bugboards") roughly flanking the stack. These would show the timetable number "99", or the locomotive number preceded by an "X"  ("X1234") for an extra.  If there was a following section, the sections would be numbered in sequence preceding the train number, and the green class lamps displayed.("1-99", "2-99"  last one just "99". For the Vintage aspect, the original Globe F7's had separate number boards with
      "2-805" molded in.  This on the SP would have been the second section of train 805, , probably a hot merchandiser.  gj
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 8:36 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Proper Jewel colors on steam engines and Cabeese lanterns

      Wow!
       
      I never would have thought it was so involved.. Thanks so much for the information!
       
      I forwarded this to the fellow who asked me..
      Thanks!
       
      Sean

      --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Willard Seehorn <wseehorn@...> wrote:
      From: Willard Seehorn <wseehorn@...>
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Proper Jewel colors on steam engines and Cabeese lanterns
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 10:54 PM

      Front of engines are class lamps, not marker lights. (flags would be used during daylight, lamps at night)

      Blank/no light: regularly scheduled train, running according to the timetable, under the authority of the timetable.

      Green light: A section following this train -- when a train had too many cars for the engine (or engines) to pull the dispatcher would order it to run in  sections.  If,  the train, number 50, leaving at 10 AM needed 99 cars to hall the load & the engines available could only move 33 cars, the train would run in 3 sections. The First #50 would run on the schedule published in the timetable, under it's train number . It would carry green class lamps  to show that another section followed. Second # 50 would run a set amount of time behind first #50, and also carry green class lamps.  Third #50 would run a set amount of time behind second #50, but it would not carry any class lamps/flags as it was the last section of #50

      White lights: an extra train, not on the timetable. It would run by train orders. Most frights ran this way.

      Marker lamps on the end of the train varied by railroad. Some used green to the side, red to the rear, others used red to the rear & amber to the side. There may be other combinations. On the Santa Fe when a train was stopped on a siding & the track set so trains on the mainline would pass safely the markers would be turned so the red was toward the waycar (caboose).

      Willard




      At 10:17 PM 1/7/2009, you wrote:

      Hi Guys,

      I was wondering what the proper/typical colors of jewels I would need to use on the front & rear of both steam engines, tenders and cabeese.

      Thanks,

      Sean


      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.4/1880 - Release Date: 1/7/2009 8:49 AM
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8181 From: John Hagen Date: 1/8/2009
      Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0
      Glenn,

      The MDC boiler and cab all appear to be within 3" - 4" on all
      measurements and, after re-measuring the photo of #60 the boiler and
      smoke box diameters are very close to right on. In fact, if I was
      modeling KGB&W #40, the other of the two 0-6-0's purchased new by the
      GB&W/KGB&W (the rest were ex-NYC), the whole engine would be quite
      close except for driver spacing. #40 had slide valves and Stephenson
      valve gear (like the MDC model) while the 60 had piston valves and
      Walschaerts valve gear.

      Driver spacing is the biggest problem. On all of their 0-6-0's drivers
      1 & 2 were widely spaced while 2 & 3 were close. I did some measuring
      and found that by splicing part of a Mantua 0-4-0 frame to part of a
      Mantua 0-6-0 frame I can approximate the spacing. Actually the 1 -2
      spacing will be a bit long and the 2 -3 will be a tad short but the
      overall wheel base will be just 2.5" long, close enough for government
      work.. And it looks to be a fairly easy job and I can use the stock
      side rods although I will have to modify something for the main rods.
      Still in all a lot less intimidating then trying to scratch a frame and
      rods.

      John Hagen


      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
      >
      > Glad to help out--I have always considered the Mantua steam locos to
      be
      > mostly "generics" although some come close to actual prototypes--I
      have a
      > 4-8-0 that comes quite close to a CP/SP loco--ran it mostly stock on
      Harold
      > Dolstad's layout for many years--have it in a box with an
      MDC "Harriman" cab
      > and vandy tender to modernize it gj
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8182 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/8/2009
      Subject: tyco operating hopper cars
      I'm posting this for a friend of mine ... does anyone have any Tyco Operating Hopper Cars they would part with. They can be open hoppers or covered hoppers.
       
      Thanks,
      Steve
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8183 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 1/8/2009
      Subject: Re: tyco operating hopper cars
      Steve,

      I, too, am always looking for these Tyco operating hoppers. I have
      found the best source to be garage sales and flea markets. I am not
      talking about train related flea markets, but the general Sunday
      morning type that sells everything.

      At railroad related markets I have seen these cars go for up to
      $20.00 each. At the general type I have picked them up for as little
      as $2.00 or $3.00. It takes lots of time and perserverance, but I
      have finally acquired enough for my own use. Sorry, but I have none
      to sell.

      Bill DeFoe



      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-
      groups@...> wrote:
      >
      > I'm posting this for a friend of mine ... does anyone have any Tyco
      Operating Hopper Cars they would part with. They can be open hoppers
      or covered hoppers.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Steve
      >
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8184 From: Maynard Keith Franklin Date: 1/8/2009
      Subject: Locomotive Classification Lights
      More questions for someone who really knew the system:

      The classification light castings I mounted on my Mantua Pacific
      years ago (were they Kemtron, or ?,) have 3 dimples for markers and a
      blank side. I assumed the blank side went to the rear, and never got
      the loco finished and painted, so I could install the marker jewels.

      Now, the previous White/Green discussion pretty well covered what
      faces forward, but what about the lenses facing inboard and
      outboard? One commenter said that the green filter was flipped up
      inside the electric lamp housing, and the lense was clear. Still
      doesn't answer my question about the sides.

      Also, somewhat related, if a loco is a helper pushing a train up the
      hill, I assume the rear markers are displayed on the rear of the
      tender. What displays were shown when that engine cut off the train,
      and backed down the hill presumably as an extra? White on the rear
      of the tender (front of the movement) and what on the front of the
      engine (rear of the movement)? Red?

      I sure hope I can get an answer from someone who's been there, done
      that!

      Keith
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8185 From: nycepeter Date: 1/8/2009
      Subject: Hobbytown of Boston
      Hi Everyone,

      Does any one know to whom Howard Mosley sold all the Hobbytown of
      Boston kits and parts when he ceased to produce the line? Howard was
      the last owner of Hobbytown and was (is?) involved with Bear
      Locomotive in Whiting NJ, but their website shows no reference to
      Hobbytown. As a matter of fact, "bearlocomotive.com" just looks like
      an index, pointing to other sites.

      He must have had tons of stuff when he closed down and it seems to
      have disappeared into thin air. Occasionally a kit or some parts
      show up on eBay, but it's rare. Usually only built-up locos, with
      lots of miles and parts missing, is what you find on eBay. As
      recently as 2002 I purchased an A-B F-unit kit from Howard with Cary
      FT bodies, and now, nothing.

      I currently have 14 operating Hobbytowns on my pike including an
      Alco FA A-B-A twin motored Triplex which will pull anything you can
      tie to it. In my opinion, they were the finest, most dependable
      Diesels in HO, ever.

      If anyone knows anything, I'd love to hear it.

      Many thanks,
      Pete
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8186 From: Chris B Date: 1/8/2009
      Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston
      Pete,
      Take a look on ebay today.There's significantly more hobbytown items this week than usual, including some NOS parts and assemblies that I've never seen sold individually, from a seller "mrhobbytown".  I spent last fall accumulating about two dozen kits and built chassis, especially yard switchers, for my W&OD layout and it's 4% grade.  They walk right up it pulling strings of vintage metal hoppers, so I'd have to agree completely with your opinion.
      Chris

      From: nycepeter <peternyce@...>
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, January 8, 2009 1:21:47 PM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown of Boston

      Hi Everyone,

      Does any one know to whom Howard Mosley sold all the Hobbytown of
      Boston kits and parts when he ceased to produce the line? Howard was
      the last owner of Hobbytown and was (is?) involved with Bear
      Locomotive in Whiting NJ, but their website shows no reference to
      Hobbytown. As a matter of fact, "bearlocomotive. com" just looks like
      an index, pointing to other sites.

      He must have had tons of stuff when he closed down and it seems to
      have disappeared into thin air. Occasionally a kit or some parts
      show up on eBay, but it's rare. Usually only built-up locos, with
      lots of miles and parts missing, is what you find on eBay. As
      recently as 2002 I purchased an A-B F-unit kit from Howard with Cary
      FT bodies, and now, nothing.

      I currently have 14 operating Hobbytowns on my pike including an
      Alco FA A-B-A twin motored Triplex which will pull anything you can
      tie to it. In my opinion, they were the finest, most dependable
      Diesels in HO, ever.

      If anyone knows anything, I'd love to hear it.

      Many thanks,
      Pete


      Group: vintageHO Message: 8187 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/8/2009
      Subject: Re: Locomotive Classification Lights
      The classification lamps show to the front and the outward sides. There may
      have been a blank plate in the third lens area--I took one out of one or my
      lamps. The green lens assembly covers two clear lenses from the inside.
      Two-lens lamps had two mounting brackets to orient them properly. gj
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Maynard Keith Franklin" <N91472@...>
      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 9:59 AM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Locomotive Classification Lights


      > More questions for someone who really knew the system:
      >
      > The classification light castings I mounted on my Mantua Pacific
      > years ago (were they Kemtron, or ?,) have 3 dimples for markers and a
      > blank side. I assumed the blank side went to the rear, and never got
      > the loco finished and painted, so I could install the marker jewels.
      >
      > Now, the previous White/Green discussion pretty well covered what
      > faces forward, but what about the lenses facing inboard and
      > outboard? One commenter said that the green filter was flipped up
      > inside the electric lamp housing, and the lense was clear. Still
      > doesn't answer my question about the sides.
      >
      > Also, somewhat related, if a loco is a helper pushing a train up the
      > hill, I assume the rear markers are displayed on the rear of the
      > tender. What displays were shown when that engine cut off the train,
      > and backed down the hill presumably as an extra? White on the rear
      > of the tender (front of the movement) and what on the front of the
      > engine (rear of the movement)? Red?
      >
      > I sure hope I can get an answer from someone who's been there, done
      > that!
      >
      > Keith
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >


      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1882 - Release Date: 1/8/2009
      8:13 AM
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8188 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 1/8/2009
      Subject: Trackside Specialties
      Hi, folks

      I'm new to this group, and I am well versed in vintage HO.

      But here's a question for you - my father, Vince Waterman, produced
      some short runs of Pennsy Electrics and a few steamers in the early to
      mid 1960's.

      If any of you know of any available, I would be interested.

      Right now all I have are the pictures.

      Regards

      Jim
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8189 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 1/8/2009
      Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties
      Hi Jim, nice to meet you, coincidentally, I am in the middle of building a Trackside Specialties PRR B-1 Electric Switcher in HO, that I bought recently. I have not seen any other of the kits for sale so I jumped on it when I had the chance. Your father made some nice kits. I wish I could find more of them. Sorry I don't have any to sell though.

      Regards, Brian Look
      Woodbridge, VA


      -----Original Message-----
      From: jimwatermanboeing <Watermaj@...>
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 7:47 pm
      Subject: [vintageHO] Trackside Specialties

      Hi, folks

      I'm new to this group, and I am well versed in vintage HO.

      But here's a question for you - my father, Vince Waterman, produced
      some short runs of Pennsy Electrics and a few steamers in the early to
      mid 1960's.

      If any of you know of any available, I would be interested.

      Right now all I have are the pictures.

      Regards

      Jim
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8190 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/8/2009
      Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "jimwatermanboeing" <Watermaj@...>
      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 6:47 PM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Trackside Specialties


      > Hi, folks
      >
      > I'm new to this group, and I am well versed in vintage HO.
      >
      > But here's a question for you - my father, Vince Waterman, produced
      > some short runs of Pennsy Electrics and a few steamers in the early to
      > mid 1960's.
      >
      > If any of you know of any available, I would be interested.
      >
      > Right now all I have are the pictures.
      >
      > Regards
      >
      > Jim

      I remember the ads in MR, does that count? :-)

      Don

      Don Dellmann
      don.dellmann@...
      http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
      http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
      Owner
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8191 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 1/8/2009
      Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties
      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bslook@... wrote:
      >
      > Hi Jim, nice to meet you, coincidentally, I am in the middle of
      building a Trackside Specialties PRR B-1 Electric Switcher in HO, that
      I bought recently. I have not seen any other of the kits for sale so I
      jumped on it when I had the chance. Your father made some nice kits. I
      wish I could find more of them. Sorry I don't have any to sell though.
      >
      > Regards, Brian Look
      > Woodbridge, VA


      Brian

      Thanks for responding. No sooner had I posted, that I saw a nice set
      of photos of several of my dad's engines in the photo section under
      'Jim Heckard'. He has some of the best examples I have seen,
      professionally finished and painted. Would like to meet him or contact
      him if anyone knows how. I'm wondering if he bought my dad's own
      collection when he parted with them in the 1980's. Good luck with that
      B-1. I remember helping him package them in some funny little white
      boxes when I was young. Should have held on to one of them. I have the
      Alco Models versions, but not his.

      One thing I do own, that I think is pretty rare, is the prewar Varney
      Streamliner, a rough PRR R-1, 4-8-4 wheel arrangement, unpainted in
      the original aluminum color. Really neat loco. uses a steam mechanism
      from a 2-8-2.


      Happy Railroading.

      Regards

      Jim
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8192 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/8/2009
      Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties
      I always looked forward to talking with him at O Scale West each year. gj
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 6:01 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Trackside Specialties


      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "jimwatermanboeing" <Watermaj@...>
      > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 6:47 PM
      > Subject: [vintageHO] Trackside Specialties
      >
      >
      >> Hi, folks
      >>
      >> I'm new to this group, and I am well versed in vintage HO.
      >>
      >> But here's a question for you - my father, Vince Waterman, produced
      >> some short runs of Pennsy Electrics and a few steamers in the early to
      >> mid 1960's.
      >>
      >> If any of you know of any available, I would be interested.
      >>
      >> Right now all I have are the pictures.
      >>
      >> Regards
      >>
      >> Jim
      >
      > I remember the ads in MR, does that count? :-)
      >
      > Don
      >
      > Don Dellmann
      > don.dellmann@...
      > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
      > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
      > Owner
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >


      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1882 - Release Date: 1/8/2009
      8:13 AM
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8193 From: John Hagen Date: 1/8/2009
      Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties
      Jim,

      Jim Heckard is a member of this group. Shouldn't be too hard to
      contact him. He will most likely respond to your post when he reads
      it.

      John Hagen

      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jimwatermanboeing" <Watermaj@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bslook@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Jim, nice to meet you, coincidentally, I am in the middle of
      > building a Trackside Specialties PRR B-1 Electric Switcher in HO,
      that
      > I bought recently. I have not seen any other of the kits for sale
      so I
      > jumped on it when I had the chance. Your father made some nice
      kits. I
      > wish I could find more of them. Sorry I don't have any to sell
      though.
      > >
      > > Regards, Brian Look
      > > Woodbridge, VA
      >
      >
      > Brian
      >
      > Thanks for responding. No sooner had I posted, that I saw a nice set
      > of photos of several of my dad's engines in the photo section under
      > 'Jim Heckard'. He has some of the best examples I have seen,
      > professionally finished and painted. Would like to meet him or
      contact
      > him if anyone knows how. I'm wondering if he bought my dad's own
      > collection when he parted with them in the 1980's. Good luck with
      that
      > B-1. I remember helping him package them in some funny little white
      > boxes when I was young. Should have held on to one of them. I have
      the
      > Alco Models versions, but not his.
      >
      > One thing I do own, that I think is pretty rare, is the prewar
      Varney
      > Streamliner, a rough PRR R-1, 4-8-4 wheel arrangement, unpainted in
      > the original aluminum color. Really neat loco. uses a steam
      mechanism
      > from a 2-8-2.
      >
      >
      > Happy Railroading.
      >
      > Regards
      >
      > Jim
      >
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8194 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/8/2009
      Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties
      Hi Jim,
                   I'm Jim Heckard and I am the owner of 3 different completed and "factory" painted Trackside Specialty items plus one in kit form. I have a painted B-1 rat which I am told there were 50 made, painted O-1 which I'm told there were 20 made and two P5a one in kit form and one painted which I am told there were 48 made.  The set of plans from the one P5a  has an address of Trackside Specialties  12  Drinker Road Somerset NJ. I bought all from a man from Lancaster PA whose name I am not able to tell on the Internet. It is not your fathers name you mention. While I would rather discuss the engines on site for the benefit of all I will "talk" off site too at jimheck@.... If you go to HO seeker under Trackside Specialties you will find a copy of the plans.
                      I also have a 4-8-4 Varney R-1 pre war streamliner which the ads for Varney call a GG-1 type along with a large vintage collection of many other hard to find vintage engines made from 1936 to 1977 with just about every company represented.
                                                                                    Jim H
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 9:53 PM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties

      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, bslook@... wrote:
      >
      > Hi Jim, nice to meet you, coincidentally, I am in the middle of
      building a Trackside Specialties PRR B-1 Electric Switcher in HO, that
      I bought recently. I have not seen any other of the kits for sale so I
      jumped on it when I had the chance. Your father made some nice kits. I
      wish I could find more of them. Sorry I don't have any to sell though.
      >
      > Regards, Brian Look
      > Woodbridge, VA

      Brian

      Thanks for responding. No sooner had I posted, that I saw a nice set
      of photos of several of my dad's engines in the photo section under
      'Jim Heckard'. He has some of the best examples I have seen,
      professionally finished and painted. Would like to meet him or contact
      him if anyone knows how. I'm wondering if he bought my dad's own
      collection when he parted with them in the 1980's. Good luck with that
      B-1. I remember helping him package them in some funny little white
      boxes when I was young. Should have held on to one of them. I have the
      Alco Models versions, but not his.

      One thing I do own, that I think is pretty rare, is the prewar Varney
      Streamliner, a rough PRR R-1, 4-8-4 wheel arrangement, unpainted in
      the original aluminum color. Really neat loco. uses a steam mechanism
      from a 2-8-2.

      Happy Railroading.

      Regards

      Jim
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8195 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/8/2009
      Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties
                 Forgot to add. The Hobby Shop listed was  Tom Thumb Hobby Shops    122 S 16th St  Phila 3 PA
                                                                                               Jim H
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 9:53 PM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties

      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, bslook@... wrote:
      >
      > Hi Jim, nice to meet you, coincidentally, I am in the middle of
      building a Trackside Specialties PRR B-1 Electric Switcher in HO, that
      I bought recently. I have not seen any other of the kits for sale so I
      jumped on it when I had the chance. Your father made some nice kits. I
      wish I could find more of them. Sorry I don't have any to sell though.
      >
      > Regards, Brian Look
      > Woodbridge, VA

      Brian

      Thanks for responding. No sooner had I posted, that I saw a nice set
      of photos of several of my dad's engines in the photo section under
      'Jim Heckard'. He has some of the best examples I have seen,
      professionally finished and painted. Would like to meet him or contact
      him if anyone knows how. I'm wondering if he bought my dad's own
      collection when he parted with them in the 1980's. Good luck with that
      B-1. I remember helping him package them in some funny little white
      boxes when I was young. Should have held on to one of them. I have the
      Alco Models versions, but not his.

      One thing I do own, that I think is pretty rare, is the prewar Varney
      Streamliner, a rough PRR R-1, 4-8-4 wheel arrangement, unpainted in
      the original aluminum color. Really neat loco. uses a steam mechanism
      from a 2-8-2.

      Happy Railroading.

      Regards

      Jim
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8196 From: Peter Nyce Date: 1/8/2009
      Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston
      Chris,

      Thanks for your response and the info. "mrhobbytown" does indeed have a lot of Hobbytown stuff out there. Maybe he bought the stock or maybe he just bought out an old hobby shop. He's selling out of Nantucket Island MA, and that's kind of interesting. I contacted Lee English at Bowser and he didn't know what happened to the stock either. As you probably know, Bowser picked up Cary Bodies some time ago.

      You have 4% mainline grades? WOW! I thought my 2% was tough. My twin motor FA's will walk 21 loaded Ulrich hoppers (granulated coal, not plastic inserts) up that grade and never slip a wheel. They'd probably take twice that many. I wire the twin DC-70s in series so they take only the same amount of juice as a DC-80 or DC-90.

      My railroad is definitely "Old School". Tru-Scale wooden roadbed and Tru-Scale turnouts with Tru-Scale magnetic relays for signalling and crossing warnings. I've been working on it since 1956. It's almost done. :-)

      Pete
       
      At 01:46 PM 1/8/2009, you wrote:

      Pete,
      Take a look on ebay today.There's significantly more hobbytown items this week than usual, including some NOS parts and assemblies that I've never seen sold individually, from a seller "mrhobbytown".  I spent last fall accumulating about two dozen kits and built chassis, especially yard switchers, for my W&OD layout and it's 4% grade.  They walk right up it pulling strings of vintage metal hoppers, so I'd have to agree completely with your opinion.
      Chris


      From: nycepeter <peternyce@...>
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, January 8, 2009 1:21:47 PM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown of Boston

      Hi Everyone,

      Does any one know to whom Howard Mosley sold all the Hobbytown of
      Boston kits and parts when he ceased to produce the line? Howard was
      the last owner of Hobbytown and was (is?) involved with Bear
      Locomotive in Whiting NJ, but their website shows no reference to
      Hobbytown. As a matter of fact, "bearlocomotive. com" just looks like
      an index, pointing to other sites.

      He must have had tons of stuff when he closed down and it seems to
      have disappeared into thin air. Occasionally a kit or some parts
      show up on eBay, but it's rare. Usually only built-up locos, with
      lots of miles and parts missing, is what you find on eBay. As
      recently as 2002 I purchased an A-B F-unit kit from Howard with Cary
      FT bodies, and now, nothing.

      I currently have 14 operating Hobbytowns on my pike including an
      Alco FA A-B-A twin motored Triplex which will pull anything you can
      tie to it. In my opinion, they were the finest, most dependable
      Diesels in HO, ever.

      If anyone knows anything, I'd love to hear it.

      Many thanks,
      Pete


      Group: vintageHO Message: 8197 From: Chris B Date: 1/9/2009
      Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston
      Pete,
      Those sound like some coal drags and a fine vintage layout!

      I'm just getting started, but I do have a nice assortment of vintage small diesels, and I've just finished the benchwork for a postwar layout based on the W&OD's Rosslyn Branch where I intend to use what truscale switches and track I've acquired on ebay. My current plan is for DC operation, using all metal vintage engines & rolling stock.  I'll be using a collection of Revell vintage structure kits I bought years ago to represent the W&OD's modest trackside buildings till I can replace them with vintage metal Suydam buildings. 

      My grade is modeled on the prototype's, and it's why I got the Hobbytowns. The Washington & Old Dominion RR was a short line with a 4% grade on a 4 mile run up from its yard at Rosslyn, VA (just across from Georgetown in DC) to Ballston, on its way to Bluemont Jct.  There it connected on track with minimal grades lines to Potomac Yard in Alexandria and out towards the Blue Ridge in Purcellville.

      It hauled some coal on those tracks, but fortunately for me, the freight traffic up and down to Rosslyn was small diesels pulling short trains.  In the 60's it was mostly ALCO S-2s leased from the C&O, and that's what my hobbytown yard switchers with Cary bodies are for. I plan on kitbashing the other hobbytown drives into drive trains for Ivers 70 ton and MEW 44 ton switchers that I've picked up to model the other W&OD engines from that time.

      It's a ten year plan for now, we'll see how long it really takes!
      Chris

      From: Peter Nyce <peternyce@...>
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, January 8, 2009 11:14:16 PM
      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hobbytown of Boston

      Chris,

      Thanks for your response and the info. "mrhobbytown" does indeed have a lot of Hobbytown stuff out there. Maybe he bought the stock or maybe he just bought out an old hobby shop. He's selling out of Nantucket Island MA, and that's kind of interesting. I contacted Lee English at Bowser and he didn't know what happened to the stock either. As you probably know, Bowser picked up Cary Bodies some time ago.

      You have 4% mainline grades? WOW! I thought my 2% was tough. My twin motor FA's will walk 21 loaded Ulrich hoppers (granulated coal, not plastic inserts) up that grade and never slip a wheel. They'd probably take twice that many. I wire the twin DC-70s in series so they take only the same amount of juice as a DC-80 or DC-90.

      My railroad is definitely "Old School". Tru-Scale wooden roadbed and Tru-Scale turnouts with Tru-Scale magnetic relays for signalling and crossing warnings. I've been working on it since 1956. It's almost done. :-)

      Pete
       

       

      Group: vintageHO Message: 8198 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/9/2009
      Subject: Question on a John Allen Engine
                           I have a question to ask about a John Allen engine on his Gorre and Daphetid railroad. This question was posed to be by someone else when we were talking about Hobbyline plastic Berkshire kit and the Sims power chassis.
              A picture appeared in an issue  (not sure which) of Model Railroader. Could be the Jan 1948 issue. The picture shows an engine yard on his layout. The caption states" John detailed and weathered his locomotives to give Gorre & Daphetid power a distinctive look. In operation each engine had a role to play. Mallet no.35 helped long freight drags on the main lines 4% grades, while Mikado 42 and BERKSHIRE 45 WERE ASSIGNED TO FAST FREIGHTS.
               This NO 45 Berk is a plastic Hobbyline Berk (so I am told). It would have been before the Sims power unit came out if this picture is from 1948. The question posed to me was engine 45 (the Hobbyline Berk) powered ? The above caption seems to hint it was. Does any one know for sure? Model Railroader has not replied to the mans request for an answer. If it was powered, and I know this might be extremely hard to find out, how was it powered ?
                                                                                                Jim H
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8199 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 1/9/2009
      Subject: Re: Question on a John Allen Engine
      Hi Jim, I don't think that it would have been a HObbyline model in 1948. John English produced them from 1960 -1970 according to what I have read. I have attached an interesting bit of information regarding the HObbyline Berkshire and the mention of a powering kit. I would suggest that you / he call Bowser manufacturing and ask the current Mr. English (I can't remember his first name at the moment), about the history of the HObbyline model. Good luck, Brian L.
      Refer to link and scroll down to HObbyline: http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/article.php?article=2594

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 7:20 pm
      Subject: [vintageHO] Question on a John Allen Engine

                           I have a question to ask about a John Allen engine on his Gorre and Daphetid railroad. This question was posed to be by someone else when we were talking about Hobbyline plastic Berkshire kit and the Sims power chassis.
              A picture appeared in an issue  (not sure which) of Model Railroader. Could be the Jan 1948 issue. The picture shows an engine yard on his layout. The caption states" John detailed and weathered his locomotives to give Gorre & Daphetid power a distinctive look. In operation each engine had a role to play. Mallet no.35 helped long freight drags on the main lines 4% grades, while Mikado 42 and BERKSHIRE 45 WERE ASSIGNED TO FAST FREIGHTS.
               This NO 45 Berk is a plastic Hobbyline Berk (so I am told). It would have been before the Sims power unit came out if this picture is from 1948. The question posed to me was engine 45 (the Hobbyline Berk) powered ? The above caption seems to hint it was. Does any one know for sure? Model Railroader has not replied to the mans request for an answer. If it was powered, and I know this might be extremely hard to find out, how was it powered ?
                                                                                                Jim H
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8200 From: John Hagen Date: 1/9/2009
      Subject: Re: Question on a John Allen Engine
      Jim,

      According to the Westcott book, "Model railroading with John Allen"
      (Kalmbach), #45 was built in 1961, using a HObbyLine Berk boiler
      shortened two feet on a Sims drive. I don't remember when the
      HObbyLine plastic Berkshire came out but it was in the 50's and I
      seem to recall it being around 56 or 57.

      There is a complete roster in the book but nothing is listed of that
      size in 1948, Just a 2-2-0 (#1), a 4-2-0 (#2), a 0-4-0T (#9) and a 4-
      4-0 (#8).

      I do recall a photo in MR of #34, a kit bashed 4-10-0 built in 1952.
      If my memory serves (no guarantee on that) the photo appeared soon
      after that. It was, per Westcott the "epitome of GD power" and was
      used as a heavy helper. I was all diecast using a Varney Reading
      boiler, Varney Casey Jones cylinder block and 50" Mantua drivers.

      John Hagen


      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
      >
      > I have a question to ask about a John Allen
      engine on his Gorre and Daphetid railroad. This question was posed to
      be by someone else when we were talking about Hobbyline plastic
      Berkshire kit and the Sims power chassis.
      > A picture appeared in an issue (not sure which) of Model
      Railroader. Could be the Jan 1948 issue. The picture shows an engine
      yard on his layout. The caption states" John detailed and weathered
      his locomotives to give Gorre & Daphetid power a distinctive look. In
      operation each engine had a role to play. Mallet no.35 helped long
      freight drags on the main lines 4% grades, while Mikado 42 and
      BERKSHIRE 45 WERE ASSIGNED TO FAST FREIGHTS.
      > This NO 45 Berk is a plastic Hobbyline Berk (so I am
      told). It would have been before the Sims power unit came out if this
      picture is from 1948. The question posed to me was engine 45 (the
      Hobbyline Berk) powered ? The above caption seems to hint it was.
      Does any one know for sure? Model Railroader has not replied to the
      mans request for an answer. If it was powered, and I know this might
      be extremely hard to find out, how was it powered ?
      >
      Jim H
      >
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8201 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 1/9/2009
      Subject: Re: Question on a John Allen Engine
      Jim,

      To quote the book "Model Railroading With John Allen", #45 was
      purchased in 1961. "Body was modified from the John English
      (HObbyline) plastic Nickle Plate Berkshire. Mechanism is Sims Lab,
      made for that kit. Metal trucks used, trailing truck shortened.
      Boiler shortened 2 scale feet." Unquote

      Bill DeFoe



      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bslook@... wrote:
      >
      > Hi Jim, I don't think that it would have been a HObbyline model in
      1948. John English produced them from 1960 -1970 according to what I
      have read. I have attached an interesting bit of information
      regarding the HObbyline Berkshire and the mention of a powering kit.
      I would suggest that you / he?call Bowser manufacturing and ask the
      current Mr. English (I can't remember his first name at the moment),
      about the history of the HObbyline model. Good luck, Brian L.
      > Refer to link and scroll down to HObbyline:
      http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/article.php?article=2594
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
      > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 7:20 pm
      > Subject: [vintageHO] Question on a John Allen Engine
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ???????????????????? I have a question to ask about a John Allen
      engine on his Gorre and Daphetid railroad. This question was posed to
      be by someone else when we were talking about Hobbyline plastic
      Berkshire kit and the Sims power chassis.
      >
      > ????????A picture appeared in an issue? (not sure which) of Model
      Railroader. Could be the Jan 1948 issue. The picture shows an engine
      yard on his layout. The caption states" John detailed and weathered
      his locomotives to give Gorre & Daphetid power a distinctive look. In
      operation each engine had a role to play. Mallet no.35 helped long
      freight drags on the main lines 4% grades, while Mikado 42 and
      BERKSHIRE 45 WERE ASSIGNED TO FAST FREIGHTS.
      >
      > ???????? This NO 45 Berk is a plastic Hobbyline Berk (so I am
      told). It would have been before the Sims power unit came out if this
      picture is from 1948. The question posed to me was engine 45 (the
      Hobbyline Berk) powered ? The above caption seems to hint it was.
      Does any one know for sure? Model Railroader has not replied to the
      mans request for an answer. If it was powered, and I know this might
      be extremely hard to find out, how was it powered ?
      >
      > ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
      ????????????????????? Jim H
      >
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8202 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/9/2009
      Subject: Re: Question on a John Allen Engine
      The HObbyline berk didn't come out until around 1957--so there wasn't a plastic body to power, anyway.  Is it possible John had one of the Varney Berk's? 
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:20 PM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Question on a John Allen Engine

                           I have a question to ask about a John Allen engine on his Gorre and Daphetid railroad. This question was posed to be by someone else when we were talking about Hobbyline plastic Berkshire kit and the Sims power chassis.
              A picture appeared in an issue  (not sure which) of Model Railroader. Could be the Jan 1948 issue. The picture shows an engine yard on his layout. The caption states" John detailed and weathered his locomotives to give Gorre & Daphetid power a distinctive look. In operation each engine had a role to play. Mallet no.35 helped long freight drags on the main lines 4% grades, while Mikado 42 and BERKSHIRE 45 WERE ASSIGNED TO FAST FREIGHTS.
               This NO 45 Berk is a plastic Hobbyline Berk (so I am told). It would have been before the Sims power unit came out if this picture is from 1948. The question posed to me was engine 45 (the Hobbyline Berk) powered ? The above caption seems to hint it was. Does any one know for sure? Model Railroader has not replied to the mans request for an answer. If it was powered, and I know this might be extremely hard to find out, how was it powered ?
                                                                                                Jim H


      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1884 - Release Date: 1/9/2009 8:38 AM
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8203 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/9/2009
      Subject: Re: Question on a John Allen Engine
          To all who replied THANK YOU. I said I had no idea what the issue was that the picture came from. The only date mentioned in the article was 1948. I knew that was to early for the Hobbyline plastic Berk to be made and for the Sins power unit to be available. Because I wasn't given all the info by therperson who ask I had to first start with was it something other then the Hobbyline plastic engine. I've sent your remarks to the gentleman who ask me. He knows for sure and I now know for sure
                                                                                                             Jim H
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Bill DeFoe
      Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 8:03 PM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Question on a John Allen Engine

      Jim,

      To quote the book "Model Railroading With John Allen", #45 was
      purchased in 1961. "Body was modified from the John English
      (HObbyline) plastic Nickle Plate Berkshire. Mechanism is Sims Lab,
      made for that kit. Metal trucks used, trailing truck shortened.
      Boiler shortened 2 scale feet." Unquote

      Bill DeFoe

      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, bslook@... wrote:
      >
      > Hi Jim, I don't think that it would have been a HObbyline model in
      1948. John English produced them from 1960 -1970 according to what I
      have read. I have attached an interesting bit of information
      regarding the HObbyline Berkshire and the mention of a powering kit.
      I would suggest that you / he?call Bowser manufacturing and ask the
      current Mr. English (I can't remember his first name at the moment),
      about the history of the HObbyline model. Good luck, Brian L.
      > Refer to link and scroll down to HObbyline:
      http://railroad. union.rpi. edu/article. php?article= 2594
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@... >
      > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
      > Sent: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 7:20 pm
      > Subject: [vintageHO] Question on a John Allen Engine
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ???????????? ???????? I have a question to ask about a John Allen
      engine on his Gorre and Daphetid railroad. This question was posed to
      be by someone else when we were talking about Hobbyline plastic
      Berkshire kit and the Sims power chassis.
      >
      > ????????A picture appeared in an issue? (not sure which) of Model
      Railroader. Could be the Jan 1948 issue. The picture shows an engine
      yard on his layout. The caption states" John detailed and weathered
      his locomotives to give Gorre & Daphetid power a distinctive look. In
      operation each engine had a role to play. Mallet no.35 helped long
      freight drags on the main lines 4% grades, while Mikado 42 and
      BERKSHIRE 45 WERE ASSIGNED TO FAST FREIGHTS.
      >
      > ???????? This NO 45 Berk is a plastic Hobbyline Berk (so I am
      told). It would have been before the Sims power unit came out if this
      picture is from 1948. The question posed to me was engine 45 (the
      Hobbyline Berk) powered ? The above caption seems to hint it was.
      Does any one know for sure? Model Railroader has not replied to the
      mans request for an answer. If it was powered, and I know this might
      be extremely hard to find out, how was it powered ?
      >
      > ???????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ??
      ???????????? ????????? Jim H
      >
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8204 From: Lowell Dorman Date: 1/10/2009
      Subject: Re: Question on a John Allen Engine

      Jim,

                  The Kalmbach Book, “Model Railroading with John Allen” has a detailed engine roster that shows No. 45 to be, indeed, a modified John English (HObbyline) berk with a Sims Lab mechanism. The roster shows the engine as “acquired or built” in 1961. Other notes indicate John added metal trucks (?) and shortened the boiler 2 scale feet.

       

      Lowell Dorman

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard
      Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 6:20 PM
      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [vintageHO] Question on a John Allen Engine

       

                           I have a question to ask about a John Allen engine on his Gorre and Daphetid railroad. This question was posed to be by someone else when we were talking about Hobbyline plastic Berkshire kit and the Sims power chassis.

              A picture appeared in an issue  (not sure which) of Model Railroader. Could be the Jan 1948 issue. The picture shows an engine yard on his layout. The caption states" John detailed and weathered his locomotives to give Gorre & Daphetid power a distinctive look. In operation each engine had a role to play. Mallet no.35 helped long freight drags on the main lines 4% grades, while Mikado 42 and BERKSHIRE 45 WERE ASSIGNED TO FAST FREIGHTS.

               This NO 45 Berk is a plastic Hobbyline Berk (so I am told). It would have been before the Sims power unit came out if this picture is from 1948. The question posed to me was engine 45 (the Hobbyline Berk) powered ? The above caption seems to hint it was. Does any one know for sure? Model Railroader has not replied to the mans request for an answer. If it was powered, and I know this might be extremely hard to find out, how was it powered ?

                                                                                                Jim H
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8205 From: Glen Thomas Date: 1/10/2009
      Subject: Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)
      Could anyone direct me to where I can find one metal "Buckeye" truck
      for the 1950's 200T Wrecking Crane? You can contact me off site at
      gthomas2@...

      Thanks in advance, Glen
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8206 From: oljoeoh Date: 1/10/2009
      Subject: Re: Question on a John Allen Engine
      The Hobbyline Berk didn't exist until 1958. Hobbyline
      never made a powered running gear for it.
      Joe O'Loughlin

      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
      >
      > I have a question to ask about a John Allen
      engine on his Gorre and Daphetid railroad. This question was posed to
      be by someone else when we were talking about Hobbyline plastic
      Berkshire kit and the Sims power chassis.
      > A picture appeared in an issue (not sure which) of Model
      Railroader. Could be the Jan 1948 issue. The picture shows an engine
      yard on his layout. The caption states" John detailed and weathered
      his locomotives to give Gorre & Daphetid power a distinctive look. In
      operation each engine had a role to play. Mallet no.35 helped long
      freight drags on the main lines 4% grades, while Mikado 42 and
      BERKSHIRE 45 WERE ASSIGNED TO FAST FREIGHTS.
      > This NO 45 Berk is a plastic Hobbyline Berk (so I am told).
      It would have been before the Sims power unit came out if this picture
      is from 1948. The question posed to me was engine 45 (the Hobbyline
      Berk) powered ? The above caption seems to hint it was. Does any one
      know for sure? Model Railroader has not replied to the mans request
      for an answer. If it was powered, and I know this might be extremely
      hard to find out, how was it powered ?
      >
      Jim H
      >
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8207 From: Gerry D Date: 1/10/2009
      Subject: Re: tyco operating hopper cars
      One word....
      Ebay. They go for an average of $18.
      Some as high as $30 or more, least expensive I got was about $2.99

      My collection of all the examples of them is located at:
      http://kitbash.ourpage.com/tyco/index.html
      and a picture of all of them on a shelf is at:
      http://kitbash.ourpage.com/reading-corner/image03.htm

      Cordially,
      Gerry

      --- On Thu, 1/8/09, My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
      From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
      Subject: [vintageHO] tyco operating hopper cars
      To: tyco_trains@yahoogroups.com, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, HOtrains@yahoogroups.com, HOYARDSALE@yahoogroups.com, HO-Model-Train-Trader@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, January 8, 2009, 11:31 AM

      I'm posting this for a friend of mine ... does anyone have any Tyco Operating Hopper Cars they would part with. They can be open hoppers or covered hoppers.
       
      Thanks,
      Steve
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8208 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/10/2009
      Subject: Re: Question on a John Allen Engine
       Joe,
                   Your right about when Hobbyline Berk produced. My original and follow up Emails were asking IF it was a Hobbyline Berk in the picture to start with. I was unsure of that point. In case it was not is the reason I included the 1948 date as when pictures of John Allen's layout first appeared in MR. I guess I just didn't explain my self right.
               Once sure it was a Hobbyline Berk  I then wanted to know how powered.  I knew the date would be much later then 1948. I totally agree that Hobbyline never had a power unit for it, but Sims produced a power chassis especially for it.
                All the replies were much appreciated and my questions were answered by many.
                                                                                     Jim H
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: oljoeoh
      Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 9:28 AM
      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Question on a John Allen Engine

      The Hobbyline Berk didn't exist until 1958. Hobbyline
      never made a powered running gear for it.
      Joe O'Loughlin

      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
      >
      > I have a question to ask about a John Allen
      engine on his Gorre and Daphetid railroad. This question was posed to
      be by someone else when we were talking about Hobbyline plastic
      Berkshire kit and the Sims power chassis.
      > A picture appeared in an issue (not sure which) of Model
      Railroader. Could be the Jan 1948 issue. The picture shows an engine
      yard on his layout. The caption states" John detailed and weathered
      his locomotives to give Gorre & Daphetid power a distinctive look. In
      operation each engine had a role to play. Mallet no.35 helped long
      freight drags on the main lines 4% grades, while Mikado 42 and
      BERKSHIRE 45 WERE ASSIGNED TO FAST FREIGHTS.
      > This NO 45 Berk is a plastic Hobbyline Berk (so I am told).
      It would have been before the Sims power unit came out if this picture
      is from 1948. The question posed to me was engine 45 (the Hobbyline
      Berk) powered ? The above caption seems to hint it was. Does any one
      know for sure? Model Railroader has not replied to the mans request
      for an answer. If it was powered, and I know this might be extremely
      hard to find out, how was it powered ?
      >
      Jim H
      >
      Group: vintageHO Message: 8209 From: Gerry D Date: 1/10/2009
      Subject: Re: tyco operating hopper cars follow up
      Attachments :
        The most rare seemed to be either the Navy (T330E) or the DT&I (T334A) which seemed to be only available with the dumping station.
        The most common are the Virginia (T330F) followed by the B&M (T330G)
        Holly Sugar (T332C) seems to be the most readily available in the covered hopper set.

        Personally, I'm hunting down the Monon, (T336A) which was the only covered hopper with a lower roof.

        Attached is an older image of some of mine. (excluding what's on my display shelf)
        I've added maybe a dozen since then.

        Cordially,
        Gerry


        --- On Sat, 1/10/09, Gerry D <gerard_sr@...> wrote:
        From: Gerry D <gerard_sr@...>
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] tyco operating hopper cars
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, January 10, 2009, 10:23 AM

        One word....
        Ebay. They go for an average of $18.
        Some as high as $30 or more, least expensive I got was about $2.99

        My collection of all the examples of them is located at:
        http://kitbash.ourpage.com/tyco/index.html
        and a picture of all of them on a shelf is at:
        http://kitbash.ourpage.com/reading-corner/image03.htm

        Cordially,
        Gerry

        --- On Thu, 1/8/09, My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
        From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
        Subject: [vintageHO] tyco operating hopper cars
        To: tyco_trains@yahoogroups.com, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, HOtrains@yahoogroups.com, HOYARDSALE@yahoogroups.com, HO-Model-Train-Trader@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, January 8, 2009, 11:31 AM

        I'm posting this for a friend of mine ... does anyone have any Tyco Operating Hopper Cars they would part with. They can be open hoppers or covered hoppers.
         
        Thanks,
        Steve
        Group: vintageHO Message: 8210 From: John Hagen Date: 1/10/2009
        Subject: MDC 0-6-0 Parts
        I am looking for a boiler and cab for a MDC 0-6-0. Don't need the rest
        of it but will consider any incomplete kits or ? Please contact me off
        list if you can help.

        Thank you in advance,

        John Hagen
        Milwaukee, WI
        Group: vintageHO Message: 8211 From: Roger Aultman Date: 1/10/2009
        Subject: Re: MDC 0-6-0 Parts
        Attachments :
          Hello John   I have a MDC metal kit that is missing the frame, motor, drivers etc.   I would sell for $17.50 plus postage.   Roger Aultman
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: John Hagen
          Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 11:03 AM
          Subject: [vintageHO] MDC 0-6-0 Parts

          I am looking for a boiler and cab for a MDC 0-6-0. Don't need the rest
          of it but will consider any incomplete kits or ? Please contact me off
          list if you can help.

          Thank you in advance,

          John Hagen
          Milwaukee, WI
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8212 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/10/2009
          Subject: Re: Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)
          What you're looking for is a sprung truck. As I remember, Penn Line had a
          similar truck under the I-1 Decapod tender (Should have been an 8-wheel
          Buckeye)-- so you might check with Bowser, also Precision Scale might have
          one. gj

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Glen Thomas" <gthomas2@...>
          To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:20 AM
          Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)


          > Could anyone direct me to where I can find one metal "Buckeye" truck
          > for the 1950's 200T Wrecking Crane? You can contact me off site at
          > gthomas2@...
          >
          > Thanks in advance, Glen
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >


          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



          No virus found in this incoming message.
          Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
          Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1885 - Release Date: 1/9/2009
          7:59 PM
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8213 From: Mike Sloane Date: 1/10/2009
          Subject: Re: Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)
          It is a 6 wheel truck, fully independent and sprung (a real b*&^h to put
          together if you need to change wheelsets). You can see it a little bit
          at:
          <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_05.html>
          but I can get a better image tomorrow, if anyone needs one.

          Mike

          Glenn476 wrote:
          >
          >
          > What you're looking for is a sprung truck. As I remember, Penn Line had a
          > similar truck under the I-1 Decapod tender (Should have been an 8-wheel
          > Buckeye)-- so you might check with Bowser, also Precision Scale might have
          > one. gj
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Glen Thomas" <gthomas2@... <mailto:gthomas2%40wi.rr.com>>
          > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>>
          > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:20 AM
          > Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)
          >
          > > Could anyone direct me to where I can find one metal "Buckeye" truck
          > > for the 1950's 200T Wrecking Crane? You can contact me off site at
          > > gthomas2@... <mailto:gthomas2%40wi.rr.com>
          > >
          > > Thanks in advance, Glen
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8214 From: Glen Thomas Date: 1/10/2009
          Subject: Re: Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)
          > It is a 6 wheel truck, fully independent and sprung (a real b*&^h to
          put
          > together if you need to change wheelsets). You can see it a little
          bit
          > at:
          >
          <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_05.html>
          > but I can get a better image tomorrow, if anyone needs one.
          >
          > Mike
          >

          Mike,

          That's the one I was looking for, the 6 wheel all metal truck. I
          beleive that's the reason I need another one, because someone tried to
          changed the wheel sets and broke the side frame.

          Thanks all for your replies, Glen
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8215 From: rrdeffinger@msn.com Date: 1/10/2009
          Subject: Re: Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)
          The part number for the later crane is 90407. Try www.traindoctor.com . They sell Athearn parts but I checked the truck isn't listed but they may still have it.
          Bob D.



          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
          From: gthomas2@...
          Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 12:20:07 +0000
          Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)


          Could anyone direct me to where I can find one metal "Buckeye" truck
          for the 1950's 200T Wrecking Crane? You can contact me off site at
          gthomas2@wi. rr.com

          Thanks in advance, Glen



          Windows Live™ Hotmail®: Chat. Store. Share. Do more with mail. See how it works.
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8216 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/10/2009
          Subject: Re: Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)
          Give me a couple days to dig. I had a pair, but one truck succumbed to lead
          rot, I may still have the other one.

          Don

          Don Dellmann
          don.dellmann@...
          http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
          http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
          Owner
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Glen Thomas" <gthomas2@...>
          To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 6:20 AM
          Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)


          > Could anyone direct me to where I can find one metal "Buckeye" truck
          > for the 1950's 200T Wrecking Crane? You can contact me off site at
          > gthomas2@...
          >
          > Thanks in advance, Glen
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8217 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/10/2009
          Subject: Re: Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)
          I had one of those cranes--center wheel on one truck was slightly
          eccentric--I used to run the crane back and forth to watch it move up and
          down. gj
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>

          > It is a 6 wheel truck, fully independent and sprung (a real b*&^h to put
          > together if you need to change wheelsets). You can see it a little bit
          > at:
          > <
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8218 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/10/2009
          Subject: Re: Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)
          The plastic crane had rigid trucks--would do until you could find a sprung one.  I'll look in my junk boxes--.  gj
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 9:58 AM
          Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)

          The part number for the later crane is 90407. Try www.traindoctor.com . They sell Athearn parts but I checked the truck isn't listed but they may still have it.
          Bob D.



          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
          From: gthomas2@...
          Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 12:20:07 +0000
          Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn 200T Crane (Metal)


          Could anyone direct me to where I can find one metal "Buckeye" truck
          for the 1950's 200T Wrecking Crane? You can contact me off site at
          gthomas2@wi. rr.com

          Thanks in advance, Glen



          Windows Live™ Hotmail®: Chat. Store. Share. Do more with mail. See how it works.


          No virus found in this incoming message.
          Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
          Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1885 - Release Date: 1/9/2009 7:59 PM
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8219 From: John Hagen Date: 1/10/2009
          Subject: Re: MDC 0-6-0 Parts
          Group,

          I will be getting the kit Roger has. It just what I was looking for.

          Thank you all,

          John Hagen

          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello John I have a MDC metal kit that is missing the frame,
          motor, drivers etc. I would sell for $17.50 plus postage. Roger
          Aultman
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: John Hagen
          > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 11:03 AM
          > Subject: [vintageHO] MDC 0-6-0 Parts
          >
          >
          > I am looking for a boiler and cab for a MDC 0-6-0. Don't need the
          rest
          > of it but will consider any incomplete kits or ? Please contact
          me off
          > list if you can help.
          >
          > Thank you in advance,
          >
          > John Hagen
          > Milwaukee, WI
          >
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8220 From: topstokes Date: 1/12/2009
          Subject: John Allen Engine #45
          In the December 1970 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman is a breakout of
          the G & D engines as explained by John Allen. Berkshire #45 is
          mentioned as a HObbytown plastic locomotive with a Sims power chassis
          added. The boiler and trailing truck were shortened by 2 feet according
          to the article. John Allen's model conversion was accomplished in 1961.
          This brings forth another mystery. If you go to the Gorre and Daphetid
          website they show a Berkshire as one of the two remaining John Allen
          engines. The engine pictured is surely not a HObbyline engine but
          appears to be a PFM ATSF Berkshire. Based upon the article referenced a
          HObbyline 2-8-4 powered by a Sims chassis was present on the G & D.
          However it could not have been prior to 1961.
          Topstokes
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8221 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/12/2009
          Subject: Re: John Allen Engine #45
          What's the url for the Gorre & Daphetid?
           
          Steve
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: topstokes
          Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 10:34 AM
          Subject: [vintageHO] John Allen Engine #45

          In the December 1970 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman is a breakout of
          the G & D engines as explained by John Allen. Berkshire #45 is
          mentioned as a HObbytown plastic locomotive with a Sims power chassis
          added. The boiler and trailing truck were shortened by 2 feet according
          to the article. John Allen's model conversion was accomplished in 1961.
          This brings forth another mystery. If you go to the Gorre and Daphetid
          website they show a Berkshire as one of the two remaining John Allen
          engines. The engine pictured is surely not a HObbyline engine but
          appears to be a PFM ATSF Berkshire. Based upon the article referenced a
          HObbyline 2-8-4 powered by a Sims chassis was present on the G & D.
          However it could not have been prior to 1961.
          Topstokes  



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          Group: vintageHO Message: 8222 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 1/12/2009
          Subject: Re: John Allen Engine #45
          Steve,

          The url for the Gorre & Daphetid is www.gdlines.com

          BillDeFoe




          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > What's the url for the Gorre & Daphetid?
          >
          > Steve
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8223 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 1/12/2009
          Subject: Re: John Allen Engine #45
          Topstokes,

          The PFM/United ATSF Berkshire was numbered #43 and was a different
          locomotive entirely from #45. Because it did not appear on his loco
          rosters, it is rumored to have been a locomotive that John took to
          other layouts when he was visiting and did not normally run it on the
          G&D. It was also one of the few pieces to escape the fire, possibly
          because of the fore mentioned reasons. (It wasn't on the layout when
          the fire broke out).

          I remember it appearing in at least one PFM advertisement and was
          probably a gift from PFM to John for the photography he did for them.

          Bill DeFoe




          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "topstokes" <topstokes@...> wrote:
          >
          > In the December 1970 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman is a
          breakout of
          > the G & D engines as explained by John Allen. Berkshire #45 is
          > mentioned as a HObbytown plastic locomotive with a Sims power
          chassis
          > added. The boiler and trailing truck were shortened by 2 feet
          according
          > to the article. John Allen's model conversion was accomplished in
          1961.
          > This brings forth another mystery. If you go to the Gorre and
          Daphetid
          > website they show a Berkshire as one of the two remaining John
          Allen
          > engines. The engine pictured is surely not a HObbyline engine but
          > appears to be a PFM ATSF Berkshire. Based upon the article
          referenced a
          > HObbyline 2-8-4 powered by a Sims chassis was present on the G & D.
          > However it could not have been prior to 1961.
          > Topstokes
          >
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8224 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 1/12/2009
          Subject: Re: John Allen Engine #45
          CORRECTION:

          #43 did appear on the loco roster in the book "Model Railroading with
          John Allen". However, it was a missprint as they stated it was a 2-
          10-2 instead of a Berkshire.

          Bill DeFoe




          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> wrote:
          >
          > Topstokes,
          >
          > The PFM/United ATSF Berkshire was numbered #43 and was a different
          > locomotive entirely from #45. Because it did not appear on his
          loco
          > rosters, it is rumored to have been a locomotive that John took to
          > other layouts when he was visiting and did not normally run it on
          the
          > G&D. It was also one of the few pieces to escape the fire,
          possibly
          > because of the fore mentioned reasons. (It wasn't on the layout
          when
          > the fire broke out).
          >
          > I remember it appearing in at least one PFM advertisement and was
          > probably a gift from PFM to John for the photography he did for
          them.
          >
          > Bill DeFoe
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "topstokes" <topstokes@> wrote:
          > >
          > > In the December 1970 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman is a
          > breakout of
          > > the G & D engines as explained by John Allen. Berkshire #45 is
          > > mentioned as a HObbytown plastic locomotive with a Sims power
          > chassis
          > > added. The boiler and trailing truck were shortened by 2 feet
          > according
          > > to the article. John Allen's model conversion was accomplished in
          > 1961.
          > > This brings forth another mystery. If you go to the Gorre and
          > Daphetid
          > > website they show a Berkshire as one of the two remaining John
          > Allen
          > > engines. The engine pictured is surely not a HObbyline engine but
          > > appears to be a PFM ATSF Berkshire. Based upon the article
          > referenced a
          > > HObbyline 2-8-4 powered by a Sims chassis was present on the G &
          D.
          > > However it could not have been prior to 1961.
          > > Topstokes
          > >
          >
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8225 From: don stokes Date: 1/12/2009
          Subject: Re: John Allen Engine #45
          Thanks for the clarification. That the information is availble and being discussed after 4 decades is testimony to the interest in John Allen and his modeling skills.
          Topstokes

          --- On Mon, 1/12/09, Bill DeFoe <defoe242@...> wrote:
          From: Bill DeFoe <defoe242@...>
          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: John Allen Engine #45
          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 1:27 PM

          Topstokes,

          The PFM/United ATSF Berkshire was numbered #43 and was a different
          locomotive entirely from #45. Because it did not appear on his loco
          rosters, it is rumored to have been a locomotive that John took to
          other layouts when he was visiting and did not normally run it on the
          G&D. It was also one of the few pieces to escape the fire, possibly
          because of the fore mentioned reasons. (It wasn't on the layout when
          the fire broke out).

          I remember it appearing in at least one PFM advertisement and was
          probably a gift from PFM to John for the photography he did for them.

          Bill DeFoe

          --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "topstokes" <topstokes@. ..> wrote:
          >
          > In the December 1970 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman is a
          breakout of
          > the G & D engines as explained by John Allen. Berkshire #45 is
          > mentioned as a HObbytown plastic locomotive with a Sims power
          chassis
          > added. The boiler and trailing truck were shortened by 2 feet
          according
          > to the article. John Allen's model conversion was accomplished in
          1961.
          > This brings forth another mystery. If you go to the Gorre and
          Daphetid
          > website they show a Berkshire as one of the two remaining John
          Allen
          > engines. The engine pictured is surely not a HObbyline engine but
          > appears to be a PFM ATSF Berkshire. Based upon the article
          referenced a
          > HObbyline 2-8-4 powered by a Sims chassis was present on the G & D.
          > However it could not have been prior to 1961.
          > Topstokes
          >
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8226 From: lvtrainmeet Date: 1/12/2009
          Subject: Lehigh valley Train meet this weekend
          Hello to everyone. I just want to let everyone know there is a train
          meet this weekend . The Great Lehigh valley Train Meet at Merchants
          Sqaure Mall. Here is a link for more info
          www.lehighvalleytrainmeet.com. Hope to see you there.

          Kevin
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8227 From: Tom Date: 1/12/2009
          Subject: WANTED Mantua Southern Crescent Pacific Loco Cab
          Hi, I am looking for a Mantua Pacific Southern Crescent steam
          locomotive cab in good condition if anyone has one they want to sell.
          Thanks, Tom
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8228 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/13/2009
          Subject: Pollock cars
          in the last days I watched a number of Pollock hot metal cars being
          auctioned off at eBay. First I thought they are Suydam kits assembled,
          but apparently they were "Buckeye" brand. Have never seen a Suydam other
          than in the old Suydam structure catalogs, but I think the mopdels
          *might* be identical . Qestion now: Does anybody know if the Bockeye car
          was a follow up to the Suydam or vice versa;
          and : has somebody an Suydam Pollock car and could supply pictures ?

          BTW, there are some more Pollock cars at ebay, one marked "Buckeye", not
          sure about the others.

          Thanks Gerold
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8229 From: Russ Shiel Date: 1/13/2009
          Subject: Red Ball card sides
          Hello all!  While cataloguing a stack of Red Ball card and foil sides yesterday, I found the coloured sheets from an early catalog I was using for reference had only about half the sides depicted. Does anyone have a complete listing of the Red Ball card and foil reefer and boxcar sides, or can direct me to such a list?
          Russ in 42 oC Adelaide (this is for the snowbound listers...we had 107.6 oF yesterday!)


          Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8230 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/13/2009
          Subject: Re: Pollock cars
          The Pollock cars were originally made by General Models Corp. (Initials
          sound familiar??)back in the late 1940's. I had one. GMC also was the
          second manufacturer of the O Scale EMD F-3 that was originally tooled by
          Atwater, then later sold under the All Nation label. gj
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
          To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 1:09 PM
          Subject: [vintageHO] Pollock cars


          > in the last days I watched a number of Pollock hot metal cars being
          > auctioned off at eBay. First I thought they are Suydam kits assembled,
          > but apparently they were "Buckeye" brand. Have never seen a Suydam other
          > than in the old Suydam structure catalogs, but I think the mopdels
          > *might* be identical . Qestion now: Does anybody know if the Bockeye car
          > was a follow up to the Suydam or vice versa;
          > and : has somebody an Suydam Pollock car and could supply pictures ?
          >
          > BTW, there are some more Pollock cars at ebay, one marked "Buckeye", not
          > sure about the others.
          >
          > Thanks Gerold
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >


          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



          No virus found in this incoming message.
          Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
          Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.6/1891 - Release Date: 1/13/2009
          8:17 AM
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8231 From: erieberk Date: 1/15/2009
          Subject: Re: Red Ball card sides
          Hello Russ, If you want, I can give you a listing of all Red Ball's
          reefer and box car sides, many with car (reporting) numbers, but the
          catalog numbers for all the car side sets are intermingled with
          alternating sets of all type cars -- there's no separation in catalog
          number sequencing for each type of car.

          Let me know if you want me to just post the side sets as numerically
          numbered, with the mixture of car types as these catalog numbers
          progress, or whether you'd prefer separate listings each for reefers
          and then box cars. All other side sets (hoppers, flats, tanks, etc.)
          are in this same numerical order of catalog numbers, but I'll leave
          them out for now -- their omission will explain gaps in catalog
          numbers.

          BTW, as for the temperature here, just move the decimal point in your
          Fahrenheit number (107.6 o F) one place to the left (10.76 o F) and
          that's closer to what I have here now; actually 13 o F (and
          snowing). Ray



          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello all!  While cataloguing a stack of Red Ball card and foil
          sides yesterday, I found the coloured sheets from an early catalog I
          was using for reference had only about half the sides depicted. Does
          anyone have a complete listing of the Red Ball card and foil reefer
          and boxcar sides, or can direct me to such a list?
          > Russ in 42 oC Adelaide (this is for the snowbound listers...we had
          107.6 oF yesterday!)
          >
          >
          > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter
          inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox
          >
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8232 From: erieberk Date: 1/15/2009
          Subject: Re: Pollock cars
          Model Engineering Works (MEW) produced this same style Pollock hot
          metal car, in addition to GMC's, and I believe Authenticast also
          offered them, but I'm not absolutely certain on this latter
          manufacturer (I'd have to check into my collection). I do know
          Authenticast offered similar, slag cars which had open-top ladles as
          opposed to the semi-closed top ladles of the Pollock hot metal cars.
          Still have about a half dozen each of both the MEW and GMC kits and
          have a good number of Authenticast kits too, but not sure which ones
          I have of them besides the Magor side dump cars, slag cars and the
          50' depressed center flatcars.

          In checking out Ebay for hot metal cars, I see none with a
          description of "Buckeye" anywhere, although that auction may have
          closed by now. I don't understand any association of a hot metal car
          with Ed Suydam's products. Could be I may have forgotten by now, but
          as far as I seem to remember Suydam never produced a hot metal car
          (please correct me if I'm wrong). I wrote a report around 1992 on
          Suydam in the H0SC&H SIG Reporting Mark publication and don't
          remember seeing that firm offering these cars back when they were in
          business. While Suydam did produce mainly structure kits - among
          them, an SY-4 (catalog number) Buckhorn Mine Ore Plant, he did
          produce a few car kits also; among them a series of Wood Ore Cars
          with MB-3A (Catalog Number) as the single Buckhorn Mine car and MB-
          33A as a 3 car set of Buckhorn Mine cars. Could this be
          where "Buckeye" became associated with Suydam.

          In later years, there was a manufacturer (in 1980) by the name of
          Buckeye Models who reproduced hot metal cars in at least two (and
          possibly three) configurations, including this same style Pollock
          car. Their first address was 2701 Lafayette Blvd, Steubenville, Ohio
          43952, and their last address was 14623 N. 25th Drive, Phoenix, AZ
          85023. They were quality die-cast kits, but of course were not
          vintage. Ray W.



          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
          >
          > The Pollock cars were originally made by General Models Corp.
          (Initials
          > sound familiar??)back in the late 1940's. I had one. GMC also was
          the
          > second manufacturer of the O Scale EMD F-3 that was originally
          tooled by
          > Atwater, then later sold under the All Nation label. gj
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
          > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 1:09 PM
          > Subject: [vintageHO] Pollock cars
          >
          >
          > > in the last days I watched a number of Pollock hot metal cars
          being
          > > auctioned off at eBay. First I thought they are Suydam kits
          assembled,
          > > but apparently they were "Buckeye" brand. Have never seen a
          Suydam other
          > > than in the old Suydam structure catalogs, but I think the mopdels
          > > *might* be identical . Qestion now: Does anybody know if the
          Bockeye car
          > > was a follow up to the Suydam or vice versa;
          > > and : has somebody an Suydam Pollock car and could supply
          pictures ?
          > >
          > > BTW, there are some more Pollock cars at ebay, one
          marked "Buckeye", not
          > > sure about the others.
          > >
          > > Thanks Gerold
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > --------------------------------------------------------------------
          ------------
          >
          >
          >
          > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
          > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.6/1891 - Release Date:
          1/13/2009
          > 8:17 AM
          >
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8233 From: erieberk Date: 1/16/2009
          Subject: Re: Red Ball card sides
          Russ, I'm going to just give you the Red Ball box cars and reefers for
          now. I'll fill in the rest as time permits. Even with these, I'll
          break it up into sections as it's too much to do all at once. I'll be
          supplying the car side numbers as I go, which will cover most all of
          the box cars, but when I get to the reefers I'm not sure if I'll have
          them all.

          Note: All box cars are box car red except as noted. For those cars
          other tan B/C Red -- Rd indicates Red, BrRd indicates Bright Red, Yw
          indicates Yellow, Gr indicates Green, Bl indicates Blue, Wt indicate
          White, Br indicates Brown and Bk indicates Black. Not all of these
          colors will be found on the box cars, but all will be used for the
          reefers at one point or another. This section will cover only the box
          cars:

          RED BALL Side Sets:

          Auto Box Car (Double Door)

          S-5 St L - SW Blue Streak 50' 47059

          S-53 C&NW Rt of the 400 50' 51360

          S-55 AT&SF 50' 8069


          Furniture Box Car

          S-26 CB&Q 40' 41326


          L.C.L. (Less Than Carload) Box Car (Twin Door)

          S-69 NP L.C.L. 60' 101069


          Wood Side (scribed) Box Car

          S-2 DM&IR 41' 5124

          S-3 DL&W Phoebe Snow 40' 7956

          S-23 SAL Orange Blossum 42' 17888

          S-24 Quaker Oats 34' Yw 647

          S-28 DL&W 41' 45912

          S-54 Cin. Hamilton & Dayton 36' 18341

          S-56 Tonapah & Tidewater 38' 130

          S-67 Stark Trees 44' Wt 43

          S-74 Rome, Watertown & Ogs'burg 38' 5829

          S-75 NYLE&W 36' 24512

          S-76 I.C. 36' 24368

          S-77 Penna RR Union Line 35' 26598

          S-84 N.K. Fairbanks 34' Gr 20132

          S-88 Sou. Pacific "Shasta" 36' 12959

          S-102 B&O Globe Line 36' 2416

          S-103 Hocking Valley 40' 29517

          S-106 L.S.L RR Overland Dispatch 36' 73591

          S-109 PRR Old Style 36' 76975

          S-110 Penn Co Union Line 36' 5737

          S-113 N.W.P. Redwood Empire Route 40' Bk 1953

          S-120 Colorado Midland 34' 5230

          S-121 NYC&HR Grain 38' Yw 55749

          S-139 M&W Ball Jars 38' Yw 1012

          S-140 Muncie & Western 38' Yw 1022

          S-141 Hill Bros. Coffee 40' 161

          S-161 Petaluma & Santa Rosa 36' 206

          S-166 Penna Empire Line 38' 76227

          S-168 Fremont, Elk'hn & Mo Valley 34' 5272

          That's all I know of on the Red Ball box cars. Ray Wetzel




          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello all!  While cataloguing a stack of Red Ball card and foil sides
          yesterday, I found the coloured sheets from an early catalog I was
          using for reference had only about half the sides depicted. Does anyone
          have a complete listing of the Red Ball card and foil reefer and boxcar
          sides, or can direct me to such a list?
          > Russ in 42 oC Adelaide (this is for the snowbound listers...we had
          107.6 oF yesterday!)
          >
          >
          > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter
          inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox
          >
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8234 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 1/17/2009
          Subject: Installing Athearn rubber bands
          Hello Group:
          I have two Athearn F7s(Burlington and Santa Fe) and two GP7/9 (Zebra
          SF) rubber band drive locomotives that need bands installed. How do I
          get the bands onto the engine shaft?
          Earl Poulsen
          Vancouver, WA
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8235 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 1/17/2009
          Subject: Re: Installing Athearn rubber bands
          Hi Earl,
          I had written this how-to thread awhile back. It shows how to rebuild an Athearn Hi-F F7. Maybe it will help.
          http://www.2guyzandsumtrains.com/Content/pa=showpage/pid=75.html


          --- On Sat, 1/17/09, Earl Poulsen <shyguy_98665@...> wrote:

          > From: Earl Poulsen <shyguy_98665@...>
          > Subject: [vintageHO] Installing Athearn rubber bands
          > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Saturday, January 17, 2009, 9:08 PM
          > Hello Group:
          > I have two Athearn F7s(Burlington and Santa Fe) and two
          > GP7/9 (Zebra
          > SF) rubber band drive locomotives that need bands
          > installed. How do I
          > get the bands onto the engine shaft?
          > Earl Poulsen
          > Vancouver, WA
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8236 From: oljoe@landolls.com Date: 1/18/2009
          Subject: Re: Installing Athearn rubber bands
          Mr. Poulsen...
          The complete tutorial on how to do the job is in the
          email, by Ray Marinaccio, in this forum is what you want
          to do. It proves the "one picture is worth a thousand
          words" thing and does it well. There is much more
          than 1 pic but it's what you will need to do.
          Joe O'Loughlin

          Earl Poulsen wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hello Group:
          > I have two Athearn F7s(Burlington and Santa Fe) and two GP7/9 (Zebra
          > SF) rubber band drive locomotives that need bands installed. How do I
          > get the bands onto the engine shaft?
          > Earl Poulsen
          > Vancouver, WA
          >
          >
          Group: vintageHO Message: 8237 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/18/2009
          Subject: Re: Pollock cars
          Attachments :
            erieberk wrote: 
            Model Engineering Works (MEW) produced this same style Pollock hot 
metal car,
            Have yet to see one of those... my catalogs dont show them. Maybe a short lived item too. 
             in addition to GMC's, and I believe Authenticast also 
offered them, but I'm not absolutely certain on this latter 
manufacturer (I'd have to check into my collection).  I do know 
Authenticast offered similar, slag cars which had open-top ladles as 
opposed to the semi-closed top ladles of the Pollock hot metal cars.  
Still have about a half dozen each of both the MEW and GMC kits and 
have a good number of Authenticast kits too, but not sure which ones 
I have of them besides the Magor side dump cars, slag cars and the 
50' depressed center flatcars. 

In checking out Ebay for hot metal cars, I see none with a 
description of "Buckeye" anywhere, although that auction may have 
closed by now.
            They were mostly sold last week. Just checked, there are one GMC, one Authenticast, two unlabeled on auction just now along with a plastic version by State Tool & Die Steel Mill/Works Cars. 
             I don't understand any association of a hot metal car 
with Ed Suydam's products.  Could be I may have forgotten by now, but 
as far as I seem to remember Suydam never produced a hot metal car 
(please correct me if I'm wrong).
            At least his 1958 cat shows it as "Kit # MB-2 Pollock Hot Metal Car... $2.95" . Have attached the respective catalog page, if you dont receive it, it should be on Larrys Hoseeker site. 
             I wrote a report around 1992 on 
Suydam in the H0SC&H SIG Reporting Mark publication and don't 
remember seeing that firm offering these cars back when they were in 
business.  While Suydam did produce mainly structure kits - among 
them, an SY-4 (catalog number) Buckhorn Mine Ore Plant, he did 
produce a few car kits also; among them a series of Wood Ore Cars 
with MB-3A (Catalog Number) as the single Buckhorn Mine car and MB-
33A as a 3 car set of Buckhorn Mine cars.  Could this be 
where "Buckeye" became associated with Suydam.
            Had this idea too....however, Suydam never used the name " Buckeye" in connection with those cars. He also sold those ore cars in a red version, lettered ATSF, also in single kits or three car kits. For some reason, it seems the Buckhorn version sold better than the ATSF. I have a string of the Buckhorn cars, and three steamers painted and lettered to match.   Maybe he dropped them from his line quickly, I have looked for Suydam items for years and never have seen any of them. 
            In later years, there was a manufacturer (in 1980) by the name of 
Buckeye Models who reproduced hot metal cars in at least two (and 
possibly three) configurations, including this same style Pollock 
car.  Their first address was 2701 Lafayette Blvd, Steubenville, Ohio 
43952, and their last address was 14623 N. 25th Drive, Phoenix, AZ 
85023.  They were quality die-cast kits, but of course were not 
vintage.
            Yes, I remember the  address from one of last weeks auctions.

            Gerold
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8238 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 1/18/2009
            Subject: Penn Line archive photos
            Folks,

            My name is Jim Waterman, son of Vince Waterman, who ran Trackside
            Specialties from the 1950's through 2005.

            One piece of vintage HO history that most folks are not aware of is
            the disposition of Penn Line's assets after they folded.

            There was a final auction of all goods. At the time there was
            substantial quantity of completed and incompleted trains.

            There were 3 main buyers at the auction - Bowser, who bought the
            tooling for most of the trains, Bernie Paul/AHM, who bought most of
            the ready to run trains and remarketed them, and my father, who bought
            most of the parts, including built up mechanisms, bins of parts for
            all the PL engines then in production, and allsorts.

            Bowser went on to reproduce the steam engines, and has improved them
            over the years. My father, sold what he called 'Mix and Match' kits,
            usually with PL mechanisms and Cary boilers. He also provided
            instruction sheets that enabled one to use the PL mechanisms under
            Varney and Mantua steam boilers as well.

            What was left of the residual parts were sold in the mid 1980's. He
            passed away in 2005, having moved solidly to O gauge, producing his
            own line of parts, and reselling brass parts from Westside, Sunset and
            eventually buying up what was left of Lobaugh.

            I have posted a few archival photos that I have (there are many more)
            in the photos section under 'Penn Line Archives'

            As I get time, I'll add to the the list.

            Regards

            Jim
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8239 From: rrdeffinger@msn.com Date: 1/18/2009
            Subject: Re: Penn Line archive photos
            Jim,
            Very interesting photos! Where was the original "factory" located and is it still there?
            Looked like teenagers working there, wonder if any of them got into model trains?
            Some how I can't see the bosses in China standing around testing their trains, or maybe they do! ;-)
            Great old photos of a piece of history.
            Bob D


            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            From: Watermaj@...
            Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 22:05:54 +0000
            Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line archive photos


            Folks,

            My name is Jim Waterman, son of Vince Waterman, who ran Trackside
            Specialties from the 1950's through 2005.

            One piece of vintage HO history that most folks are not aware of is
            the disposition of Penn Line's assets after they folded.

            There was a final auction of all goods. At the time there was
            substantial quantity of completed and incompleted trains.

            There were 3 main buyers at the auction - Bowser, who bought the
            tooling for most of the trains, Bernie Paul/AHM, who bought most of
            the ready to run trains and remarketed them, and my father, who bought
            most of the parts, including built up mechanisms, bins of parts for
            all the PL engines then in production, and allsorts.

            Bowser went on to reproduce the steam engines, and has improved them
            over the years. My father, sold what he called 'Mix and Match' kits,
            usually with PL mechanisms and Cary boilers. He also provided
            instruction sheets that enabled one to use the PL mechanisms under
            Varney and Mantua steam boilers as well.

            What was left of the residual parts were sold in the mid 1980's. He
            passed away in 2005, having moved solidly to O gauge, producing his
            own line of parts, and reselling brass parts from Westside, Sunset and
            eventually buying up what was left of Lobaugh.

            I have posted a few archival photos that I have (there are many more)
            in the photos section under 'Penn Line Archives'

            As I get time, I'll add to the the list.

            Regards

            Jim



            Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8240 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 1/18/2009
            Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
            Hello,

            This email message is a notification to let you know that
            a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
            group.

            File : /V List Red Ball cars.xls
            Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
            Description : List of Red Ball kits

            You can access this file at the URL:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Red%20Ball%20cars.xls

            To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
            http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles

            Regards,

            chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8241 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/18/2009
            Subject: Re: Penn Line archive photos
            Bob D and Jim W,                           A little story I've been told about the teenagers working for Penn Line as relayed by a close friend. I'm specifically talking about those that were printing the numbers on the Penn Line items. It is said they got bored and decided to print numbers other then they were told to do and why you can possibly find pieces with the wrong or different number then normal.
                   Pictures you entered are great. Glad you entered them and the little history of your father. thanks for sharing.
                                                                          Jim
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 7:07 PM
            Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Penn Line archive photos

            Jim,
            Very interesting photos! Where was the original "factory" located and is it still there?
            Looked like teenagers working there, wonder if any of them got into model trains?
            Some how I can't see the bosses in China standing around testing their trains, or maybe they do! ;-)
            Great old photos of a piece of history.
            Bob D


            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
            From: Watermaj@comcast. net
            Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 22:05:54 +0000
            Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line archive photos


            Folks,

            My name is Jim Waterman, son of Vince Waterman, who ran Trackside
            Specialties from the 1950's through 2005.

            One piece of vintage HO history that most folks are not aware of is
            the disposition of Penn Line's assets after they folded.

            There was a final auction of all goods. At the time there was
            substantial quantity of completed and incompleted trains.

            There were 3 main buyers at the auction - Bowser, who bought the
            tooling for most of the trains, Bernie Paul/AHM, who bought most of
            the ready to run trains and remarketed them, and my father, who bought
            most of the parts, including built up mechanisms, bins of parts for
            all the PL engines then in production, and allsorts.

            Bowser went on to reproduce the steam engines, and has improved them
            over the years. My father, sold what he called 'Mix and Match' kits,
            usually with PL mechanisms and Cary boilers. He also provided
            instruction sheets that enabled one to use the PL mechanisms under
            Varney and Mantua steam boilers as well.

            What was left of the residual parts were sold in the mid 1980's. He
            passed away in 2005, having moved solidly to O gauge, producing his
            own line of parts, and reselling brass parts from Westside, Sunset and
            eventually buying up what was left of Lobaugh.

            I have posted a few archival photos that I have (there are many more)
            in the photos section under 'Penn Line Archives'

            As I get time, I'll add to the the list.

            Regards

            Jim



            Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.

            Group: vintageHO Message: 8242 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/18/2009
            Subject: Re: Penn Line archive photos
            > Jim,
            > Very interesting photos! Where was the original "factory" located
            > and is it still there?
            > Looked like teenagers working there, wonder if any of them got
            > into model trains?
            > Some how I can't see the bosses in China standing around testing
            > their trains, or maybe they do! ;-)
            > Great old photos of a piece of history.
            > Bob D
            >
            I think the release of China prototype models ( Bachmann and others)
            indicates that there may be a lot of interest in modeling there as well.
            Maybe not the sort of activity with wooden craftsman kits, but surely
            some interest.

            Gerold
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8243 From: Mike Date: 1/19/2009
            Subject: Re: Installing Athearn rubber bands
            Boy of boy! Great tutorial. I borrowed it to post on my Super O Yahoo
            Group as it brought back so many pleasant times! I didn't know folks
            still ran the "rubber band" drive! Are they still reliable and smooth
            runners?

            Very best, Mike Spanier

            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, oljoe@... wrote:
            >
            > Mr. Poulsen...
            > The complete tutorial on how to do the job is in the
            > email, by Ray Marinaccio, in this forum is what you want
            > to do. It proves the "one picture is worth a thousand
            > words" thing and does it well. There is much more
            > than 1 pic but it's what you will need to do.
            > Joe O'Loughlin
            >
            > Earl Poulsen wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Hello Group:
            > > I have two Athearn F7s(Burlington and Santa Fe) and two GP7/9
            (Zebra
            > > SF) rubber band drive locomotives that need bands installed. How
            do I
            > > get the bands onto the engine shaft?
            > > Earl Poulsen
            > > Vancouver, WA
            > >
            > >
            >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8244 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/19/2009
            Subject: Re: Installing Athearn rubber bands
            Mike, some of the motors don't last.  Mine still runs.  I am always needing motors like the one in the tutorial because I have a repair customer who wants his Hi F unit to run and he keeps burning out motors.  There were numerous types of motors used during the manufacture of the Hi F drives and they are not all interchangable... and the best motor of all to use in them was the Pitman replacement that was geared lower than the Athearn motors.  I have a collection of the variations and my first HO loco was an Athearn Hi F train set.  I still have that loco in my personal RR paint scheme.  Rubber band drives can be tuned to run smoother than you can believe as long as you know what to do, use good bands and treat them right.  I like the way the Pitman motor sounds as you apply the throttle... Sounds like a diesel revving up...

            Better performance can be attained by scratching the plastic axle drum with the end of a hobby knife along the length of the axle from wheel back to wheel back...  Space the scratches about 1/16th inch apart along the axis of the drum and all the way around.  Then use a file to roughen the area on the drive shaft connected to the motor so the bands will have some roughness to grab on the shaft as it turns and on the axle drums as they turn.  Be careful not to roughen the area where the shaft turns in the support post.  Keep a check on the motors when running under load.  If they get too hot to hold and are run that way for very long they will lose magnetism and fail.  That is always the problem with the ones I have had to replace.  He burned out the last motor because his power pack was putting out AC and DC current at the same time and destroyed the magnetism.  I had never seen that power pack problem before.

            I use 30 weight Penzoil motor oil to lube the motor and the bearings because it stays in place even if it gets hot.

            Thanks for putting me onto this group Mike.

            I am a professional train repair man as well as a collector in HO, Marx, American Flyer and O Gauge and I have a 3 inch scale train in my yard and I can ride in the cab to run it.

            Don in VA
            ================================================

            Mike wrote:

            Boy of boy! Great tutorial. I borrowed it to post on my Super O Yahoo
            Group as it brought back so many pleasant times! I didn't know folks
            still ran the "rubber band" drive! Are they still reliable and smooth
            runners?

            Very best, Mike Spanier

            --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, oljoe@... wrote:
            >
            > Mr. Poulsen...
            > The complete tutorial on how to do the job is in the
            > email, by Ray Marinaccio, in this forum is what you want
            > to do. It proves the "one picture is worth a thousand
            > words" thing and does it well. There is much more
            > than 1 pic but it's what you will need to do.
            > Joe O'Loughlin
            >
            > Earl Poulsen wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Hello Group:
            > > I have two Athearn F7s(Burlington and Santa Fe) and two GP7/9
            (Zebra
            > > SF) rubber band drive locomotives that need bands installed. How
            do I
            > > get the bands onto the engine shaft?
            > > Earl Poulsen
            > > Vancouver, WA
            > >
            > >
            >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8245 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 1/19/2009
            Subject: Re: Installing Athearn rubber bands
            I still run mine once in awhile.
            I have a couple of the Pittman motors in anF7 and a GP9. They run pretty good.
            I also have put can motors in a couple of F7s.
            I use neoprene belts instead of "rubber bands" they last longer.
            The can motors run at a lower RPM and have enough power to turn a tihgter belt.
            I have found that the stock motor will overhead if the neoprene belts are to tight.
            I posted a photo of the Pittman motor and a photo of a Hi-F F7 chassis with a can motor in my photo album.


            --- On Mon, 1/19/09, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...> wrote:

            > From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
            > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Installing Athearn rubber bands
            > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 7:39 AM
            > /Mike, some of the motors don't last. Mine still runs.
            > I am always needing motors like the one in the tutorial
            > because I have a repair customer who wants his Hi F unit to
            > run and he keeps burning out motors. There were numerous
            > types of motors used during the manufacture of the Hi F
            > drives and they are not all interchangable... and the best
            > motor of all to use in them was the Pitman replacement that
            > was geared lower than the Athearn motors. I have a
            > collection of the variations and my first HO loco was an
            > Athearn Hi F train set. I still have that loco in my
            > personal RR paint scheme. Rubber band drives can be tuned
            > to run smoother than you can believe as long as you know
            > what to do, use good bands and treat them right. I like the
            > way the Pitman motor sounds as you apply the throttle...
            > Sounds like a diesel revving up...
            >
            > Better performance can be attained by scratching the
            > plastic axle drum with the end of a hobby knife along the
            > length of the axle from wheel back to wheel back... Space
            > the scratches about 1/16th inch apart along the axis of the
            > drum and all the way around. Then use a file to roughen the
            > area on the drive shaft connected to the motor so the bands
            > will have some roughness to grab on the shaft as it turns
            > and on the axle drums as they turn. Be careful not to
            > roughen the area where the shaft turns in the support post.
            > Keep a check on the motors when running under load. If they
            > get too hot to hold and are run that way for very long they
            > will lose magnetism and fail. That is always the problem
            > with the ones I have had to replace. He burned out the last
            > motor because his power pack was putting out AC and DC
            > current at the same time and destroyed the magnetism. I had
            > never seen that power pack problem before.
            >
            > I use 30 weight Penzoil motor oil to lube the motor and the
            > bearings because it stays in place even if it gets hot.
            >
            > Thanks for putting me onto this group Mike.
            >
            > I am a professional train repair man as well as a collector
            > in HO, Marx, American Flyer and O Gauge and I have a 3 inch
            > scale train in my yard and I can ride in the cab to run it.
            >
            > Don in VA
            > ================================================
            > /
            > Mike wrote:
            > >
            > > Boy of boy! Great tutorial. I borrowed it to post on
            > my Super O Yahoo
            > > Group as it brought back so many pleasant times! I
            > didn't know folks
            > > still ran the "rubber band" drive! Are they
            > still reliable and smooth
            > > runners?
            > >
            > > Very best, Mike Spanier
            > >
            > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>, oljoe@... wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Mr. Poulsen...
            > > > The complete tutorial on how to do the job is in
            > the
            > > > email, by Ray Marinaccio, in this forum is what
            > you want
            > > > to do. It proves the "one picture is worth a
            > thousand
            > > > words" thing and does it well. There is much
            > more
            > > > than 1 pic but it's what you will need to do.
            > > > Joe O'Loughlin
            > > >
            > > > Earl Poulsen wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Hello Group:
            > > > > I have two Athearn F7s(Burlington and Santa
            > Fe) and two GP7/9
            > > (Zebra
            > > > > SF) rubber band drive locomotives that need
            > bands installed. How
            > > do I
            > > > > get the bands onto the engine shaft?
            > > > > Earl Poulsen
            > > > > Vancouver, WA
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8246 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/19/2009
            Subject: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...

            Hi all!

            Did anyone happen to see the sale go down last night?? I had to pull myself away for the Steelers vs. Ravens game to see how it ended...

            $821 and listed as a Pre-War Varney... 

            130280883110

            That was amazing!  :O

            Only Troy Polamalu's interseption and return for a touchdown last night, putting the Steelers up by 9 put me closer to passing out from excitement!  :)) Actually, I did lose my vision and did not catch it until he was on the 5 and about to run into the endzone.. Took everything I had at the time to stay consoius.. glad I was already sitting down... Scared the hell out of me actually after it was all said and done..

            But how about that Mantua!!  Has anyone ever seen one go so high?

            Makes me happy to know I have mine.. Still looking for that Pacific though.. Tha same seller had a pacific, but it was the Post-war version..

            Sean

             

             

             
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8247 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/19/2009
            Subject: Re: Installing Athearn rubber bands
            Hello Ray... I viewed the photo.  What kind of can motor was that?  How long is the motor housing?  I will be looking for one of them.
            Thanks.
            Don in VA.
            =========================================

            Ray Marinaccio wrote:

            I still run mine once in awhile.
            I have a couple of the Pittman motors in anF7 and a GP9. They run pretty good.
            I also have put can motors in a couple of F7s.
            I use neoprene belts instead of "rubber bands" they last longer.
            The can motors run at a lower RPM and have enough power to turn a tihgter belt.
            I have found that the stock motor will overhead if the neoprene belts are to tight.
            I posted a photo of the Pittman motor and a photo of a Hi-F F7 chassis with a can motor in my photo album.

            --- On Mon, 1/19/09, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@verizon. net> wrote:

            > From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@verizon. net>
            > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Installing Athearn rubber bands
            > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
            > Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 7:39 AM
            > /Mike, some of the motors don't last. Mine still runs.
            > I am always needing motors like the one in the tutorial
            > because I have a repair customer who wants his Hi F unit to
            > run and he keeps burning out motors. There were numerous
            > types of motors used during the manufacture of the Hi F
            > drives and they are not all interchangable. .. and the best
            > motor of all to use in them was the Pitman replacement that
            > was geared lower than the Athearn motors. I have a
            > collection of the variations and my first HO loco was an
            > Athearn Hi F train set. I still have that loco in my
            > personal RR paint scheme. Rubber band drives can be tuned
            > to run smoother than you can believe as long as you know
            > what to do, use good bands and treat them right. I like the
            > way the Pitman motor sounds as you apply the throttle...
            > Sounds like a diesel revving up...
            >
            > Better performance can be attained by scratching the
            > plastic axle drum with the end of a hobby knife along the
            > length of the axle from wheel back to wheel back... Space
            > the scratches about 1/16th inch apart along the axis of the
            > drum and all the way around. Then use a file to roughen the
            > area on the drive shaft connected to the motor so the bands
            > will have some roughness to grab on the shaft as it turns
            > and on the axle drums as they turn. Be careful not to
            > roughen the area where the shaft turns in the support post.
            > Keep a check on the motors when running under load. If they
            > get too hot to hold and are run that way for very long they
            > will lose magnetism and fail. That is always the problem
            > with the ones I have had to replace. He burned out the last
            > motor because his power pack was putting out AC and DC
            > current at the same time and destroyed the magnetism. I had
            > never seen that power pack problem before.
            >
            > I use 30 weight Penzoil motor oil to lube the motor and the
            > bearings because it stays in place even if it gets hot.
            >
            > Thanks for putting me onto this group Mike.
            >
            > I am a professional train repair man as well as a collector
            > in HO, Marx, American Flyer and O Gauge and I have a 3 inch
            > scale train in my yard and I can ride in the cab to run it.
            >
            > Don in VA
            > ============ ========= ========= ========= =========
            > /
            > Mike wrote:
            > >
            > > Boy of boy! Great tutorial. I borrowed it to post on
            > my Super O Yahoo
            > > Group as it brought back so many pleasant times! I
            > didn't know folks
            > > still ran the "rubber band" drive! Are they
            > still reliable and smooth
            > > runners?
            > >
            > > Very best, Mike Spanier
            > >
            > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
            > <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com>, oljoe@... wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Mr. Poulsen...
            > > > The complete tutorial on how to do the job is in
            > the
            > > > email, by Ray Marinaccio, in this forum is what
            > you want
            > > > to do. It proves the "one picture is worth a
            > thousand
            > > > words" thing and does it well. There is much
            > more
            > > > than 1 pic but it's what you will need to do.
            > > > Joe O'Loughlin
            > > >
            > > > Earl Poulsen wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Hello Group:
            > > > > I have two Athearn F7s(Burlington and Santa
            > Fe) and two GP7/9
            > > (Zebra
            > > > > SF) rubber band drive locomotives that need
            > bands installed. How
            > > do I
            > > > > get the bands onto the engine shaft?
            > > > > Earl Poulsen
            > > > > Vancouver, WA
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8248 From: erieberk Date: 1/19/2009
            Subject: Re: Red Ball car sides
            As I need to break down this list anyhow, as I continue, I thought
            I'd separate them into categories as to what type car (what under-
            frame was used, and with it, what style trucks) these sides were used
            on. While most of Red Ball's cars were older style, I'll also
            include their prototype built dates, in brackets (but won't separate
            them in that manner), to better determine the period these various
            cars were used in -- which I probably should have done from the
            start.

            I'll include the box car built dates here, and while I'm briefly
            getting back to the box cars, I see I left out a Special Category
            (Historical) wood box car I'll also include here:

            S-189 Friendship 34' Br & Wt [1884] 1870-Wood-Beam freight trucks

            Some hobbyists may also include the Overland Oil car as a box car,
            only because of its similar configuration. This car was constructed
            as a box car type but with a low-slung pan underneath to contain oil.

            S-126 Overland Oil & Transportation 35' Red #101 [1890] Arch Bar

            Note, that the color Orange (Or) was inadvertantly omitted, which
            will be used for some reefers. Going forward, I'll include the built
            dates on all reefers, but for now I'll go back to include these dates
            for the box cars. All box cars used arch bar trucks (except for
            friendship) and with the exception of S-2 DM&IR and S-5 SL-SW which
            used Standard Bettendorf trucks.

            The built dates for all box cars are:

            S-2 - [1907], S-3 - [1930], S-5 - [1940], S-23 - [1924], S-24 -
            [1892], S-26 - [1892], S-28 - [1941], S-53 - [1939], S-54 - [1875], S-
            55 - [1936], S-56 - [1900], S-65 - [1937], S-67 - [1943], S-69 -
            [1912], S-74 - [1894], S-75 - [1890], S-76 - [1908], S-77 - [1892], S-
            84 - [1910], S- 88 - [1897], S-102 - [1893], S-103 - [1902], S-106 -
            [1896], S-109 - [1902], S-110 - [1870], S-113 - [1919], S-120 -
            [1898], S-121 - [1893], S-139 - [1914], S-140 - [1917], S-141 -
            [1930], S-161 - [1900] and S-168 - [1890].

            Next, to come; -- Red Ball reefer sides. Ray Wetzel
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8249 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 1/19/2009
            Subject: Re: Installing Athearn rubber bands
            This is the motor I used.
            http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/DCM-234/DUAL-SHAFT-DC-MOTOR/-/1.html
            I had to shorten the shafts for it to connect to the stosk "drive shafts"


            --- On Mon, 1/19/09, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...> wrote:

            > From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
            > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Installing Athearn rubber bands
            > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 10:10 AM
            > /Hello Ray... I viewed the photo. What kind of can motor
            > was that? How long is the motor housing? I will be looking
            > for one of them.
            > Thanks.
            > Don in VA.
            > =========================================
            > /
            > Ray Marinaccio wrote:
            > >
            > > I still run mine once in awhile.
            > > I have a couple of the Pittman motors in anF7 and a
            > GP9. They run pretty good.
            > > I also have put can motors in a couple of F7s.
            > > I use neoprene belts instead of "rubber
            > bands" they last longer.
            > > The can motors run at a lower RPM and have enough
            > power to turn a tihgter belt.
            > > I have found that the stock motor will overhead if the
            > neoprene belts are to tight.
            > > I posted a photo of the Pittman motor and a photo of a
            > Hi-F F7 chassis with a can motor in my photo album.
            > >
            > > --- On Mon, 1/19/09, Donald R. Staton
            > <chpln1@...
            > <mailto:chpln1%40verizon.net>> wrote:
            > >
            > > > From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...
            > <mailto:chpln1%40verizon.net>>
            > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Installing Athearn
            > rubber bands
            > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > > Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 7:39 AM
            > > > /Mike, some of the motors don't last. Mine
            > still runs.
            > > > I am always needing motors like the one in the
            > tutorial
            > > > because I have a repair customer who wants his Hi
            > F unit to
            > > > run and he keeps burning out motors. There were
            > numerous
            > > > types of motors used during the manufacture of
            > the Hi F
            > > > drives and they are not all interchangable... and
            > the best
            > > > motor of all to use in them was the Pitman
            > replacement that
            > > > was geared lower than the Athearn motors. I have
            > a
            > > > collection of the variations and my first HO loco
            > was an
            > > > Athearn Hi F train set. I still have that loco in
            > my
            > > > personal RR paint scheme. Rubber band drives can
            > be tuned
            > > > to run smoother than you can believe as long as
            > you know
            > > > what to do, use good bands and treat them right.
            > I like the
            > > > way the Pitman motor sounds as you apply the
            > throttle...
            > > > Sounds like a diesel revving up...
            > > >
            > > > Better performance can be attained by scratching
            > the
            > > > plastic axle drum with the end of a hobby knife
            > along the
            > > > length of the axle from wheel back to wheel
            > back... Space
            > > > the scratches about 1/16th inch apart along the
            > axis of the
            > > > drum and all the way around. Then use a file to
            > roughen the
            > > > area on the drive shaft connected to the motor so
            > the bands
            > > > will have some roughness to grab on the shaft as
            > it turns
            > > > and on the axle drums as they turn. Be careful
            > not to
            > > > roughen the area where the shaft turns in the
            > support post.
            > > > Keep a check on the motors when running under
            > load. If they
            > > > get too hot to hold and are run that way for very
            > long they
            > > > will lose magnetism and fail. That is always the
            > problem
            > > > with the ones I have had to replace. He burned
            > out the last
            > > > motor because his power pack was putting out AC
            > and DC
            > > > current at the same time and destroyed the
            > magnetism. I had
            > > > never seen that power pack problem before.
            > > >
            > > > I use 30 weight Penzoil motor oil to lube the
            > motor and the
            > > > bearings because it stays in place even if it
            > gets hot.
            > > >
            > > > Thanks for putting me onto this group Mike.
            > > >
            > > > I am a professional train repair man as well as a
            > collector
            > > > in HO, Marx, American Flyer and O Gauge and I
            > have a 3 inch
            > > > scale train in my yard and I can ride in the cab
            > to run it.
            > > >
            > > > Don in VA
            > > > ================================================
            > > > /
            > > > Mike wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Boy of boy! Great tutorial. I borrowed it to
            > post on
            > > > my Super O Yahoo
            > > > > Group as it brought back so many pleasant
            > times! I
            > > > didn't know folks
            > > > > still ran the "rubber band" drive!
            > Are they
            > > > still reliable and smooth
            > > > > runners?
            > > > >
            > > > > Very best, Mike Spanier
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > oljoe@... wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Mr. Poulsen...
            > > > > > The complete tutorial on how to do the
            > job is in
            > > > the
            > > > > > email, by Ray Marinaccio, in this forum
            > is what
            > > > you want
            > > > > > to do. It proves the "one picture
            > is worth a
            > > > thousand
            > > > > > words" thing and does it well.
            > There is much
            > > > more
            > > > > > than 1 pic but it's what you will
            > need to do.
            > > > > > Joe O'Loughlin
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Earl Poulsen wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Hello Group:
            > > > > > > I have two Athearn F7s(Burlington
            > and Santa
            > > > Fe) and two GP7/9
            > > > > (Zebra
            > > > > > > SF) rubber band drive locomotives
            > that need
            > > > bands installed. How
            > > > > do I
            > > > > > > get the bands onto the engine
            > shaft?
            > > > > > > Earl Poulsen
            > > > > > > Vancouver, WA
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > >
            > >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8250 From: railwaymodeler Date: 1/19/2009
            Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
            Now I am curious: I have a 4-8-2 Mountain class with that exact same
            tender. Did Mantua make a Mountain class ever? Gee, I picked up the
            Mountain for about $60, but it DOES run, and run well!

            The tender the Mountain had, I swapped it out for a Bowser tender, and
            gave the old cast brass or bronze (I think bronze) to my friend Bob,
            who runs the hobby shop.

            Strange, though- the Mountain has a pilot deck that says 'Varney' on
            it, though it doesn't look quite original to the locomotive.

            -Steve Neubaum



            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hi all!
            >
            > Did anyone happen to see the sale go down last night?? I had to pull
            > myself away for the Steelers vs. Ravens game to see how it ended...
            >
            > $821 and listed as a Pre-War Varney...
            > 130280883110
            >
            >
            <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130280883110&ss\
            > PageName=STRK:MEWA:PIC&ih=003> Pre-war Varney Consolidation 2-8-0 Loco
            > & Tender
            >
            <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130280883110&ss\
            > PageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=003>
            >
            > That was amazing! [:O]
            >
            > Only Troy Polamalu's interseption and return for a touchdown last night,
            > putting the Steelers up by 9 put me closer to passing out from
            > excitement! [:))] Actually, I did lose my vision and did not catch it
            > until he was on the 5 and about to run into the endzone.. Took
            > everything I had at the time to stay consoius.. glad I was already
            > sitting down... Scared the hell out of me actually after it was all said
            > and done..
            >
            > But how about that Mantua!! Has anyone ever seen one go so high?
            >
            > Makes me happy to know I have mine.. Still looking for that Pacific
            > though.. Tha same seller had a pacific, but it was the Post-war
            > version..
            >
            > Sean
            >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8251 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/19/2009
            Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
            Hi Steve,
             Mantua did make a Mountain mechanism (only) kit. I have one. They are very very rare. It did not come with a boiler or tender. As far as I know, a complete engine was never produced.
             
            You stated this had a cast brass or bronze tender. The Consolidation that ended last night had a sheet brass or bronze tender. The only mountains I know know of that had cast brass tenders wer made by Bowser or Knapp.  The difference I know between the two is Bowser has the box spoke drivers and the Knapp has the thin spoked. (Thanks to Jim Heckard)
             
            Sound to me like you had one or the other and you traded an original tender with a later bowser tender..  however, Varney did make a Mountain and I do believe it came with a cast brass Boiler. I am not sure what other tenders Varney had. I do not beileve they had any cast brass.
             
            Sean
             
            Sean
            --- On Mon, 1/19/09, railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
            From: railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...>
            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 3:12 PM

            Now I am curious: I have a 4-8-2 Mountain class with that exact same
            tender. Did Mantua make a Mountain class ever? Gee, I picked up the
            Mountain for about $60, but it DOES run, and run well!

            The tender the Mountain had, I swapped it out for a Bowser tender, and
            gave the old cast brass or bronze (I think bronze) to my friend Bob,
            who runs the hobby shop.

            Strange, though- the Mountain has a pilot deck that says 'Varney' on
            it, though it doesn't look quite original to the locomotive.

            -Steve Neubaum

            --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hi all!
            >
            > Did anyone happen to see the sale go down last night?? I had to pull
            > myself away for the Steelers vs. Ravens game to see how it ended...
            >
            > $821 and listed as a Pre-War Varney...
            > 130280883110
            >
            >
            <http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& rd=1&item= 130280883110& ss\
            > PageName=STRK: MEWA:PIC& ih=003> Pre-war Varney Consolidation 2-8-0 Loco
            > & Tender
            >
            <http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& rd=1&item= 130280883110& ss\
            > PageName=STRK: MEWA:IT&ih= 003>
            >
            > That was amazing! [:O]
            >
            > Only Troy Polamalu's interseption and return for a touchdown last night,
            > putting the Steelers up by 9 put me closer to passing out from
            > excitement! [:))] Actually, I did lose my vision and did not catch it
            > until he was on the 5 and about to run into the endzone.. Took
            > everything I had at the time to stay consoius.. glad I was already
            > sitting down... Scared the hell out of me actually after it was all said
            > and done..
            >
            > But how about that Mantua!! Has anyone ever seen one go so high?
            >
            > Makes me happy to know I have mine.. Still looking for that Pacific
            > though.. Tha same seller had a pacific, but it was the Post-war
            > version..
            >
            > Sean
            >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8252 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/19/2009
            Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
            I don't recall Mantua with a Mountain.

            Varney had a catalog titled, "1001 Parts for Model Railroads" or something
            like that.
            gj

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "railwaymodeler" <computersystemrebuild@...>
            To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 12:12 PM
            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay
            last night...


            >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8253 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/19/2009
            Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
            Steve & Sean,
                     I have to add some things to your discussion about a possible Mantua 4-8-2 Mountain. I know Sean is right in that before the war Mantua had a 4-8-2 mechanism and  has a Mantua box to prove it. As to a complete (boiler and all) Manua Mountain let me cite a Mantua 1948 catalog, page 7.   " But Mantua has a new one up it's sleeve, right now. I've looked with awe at a drawing, and needed only that and familiarity with the rest of the Mantua family, plus a few whispered red hot tips about it's brand new features, to tell me (the author) that Mantua's new 4-8-2 Mountain type job is going to open new territory". While there is more to this article my one finger will fall off. Needless to say I can't verify if it was ever produced.
                   Sean , my old eyes might deceive me but it looked to me that the tender that went off with that pre war Mantua 2-8-0 last night was a Cast Knapp or Bowser Mountain tender which were actually the same thing. (The pictures of the last nights Ebay item left a little to be desired.)
                     Another point is that Varney produced NO Mountain that I remember. They had a number of engines with 8 drivers (Consolidation, Mikado, Berkshire and Northern) but I don't remember any Varney Mountain. Also Varney did sell (I think A&S cast it for them) one brass and or bronze tender. It was a Vanderbilt style like their Aluminum Vanderbilt tender.
                   Like Sean stated I know of no other cast brass Mountain then the Knapp/Bowser. They used the same boiler (and tender) but Bowser had a different drive then the Knapp.
                   Steve maybe it would be a good idea if you can to take a picture (s) and post them. Perhaps an identity can be made that way. Hope that helps.
                                                                     Jim H
             
             
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:39 PM
            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...

            Hi Steve,
             Mantua did make a Mountain mechanism (only) kit. I have one. They are very very rare. It did not come with a boiler or tender. As far as I know, a complete engine was never produced.
             
            You stated this had a cast brass or bronze tender. The Consolidation that ended last night had a sheet brass or bronze tender. The only mountains I know know of that had cast brass tenders wer made by Bowser or Knapp.  The difference I know between the two is Bowser has the box spoke drivers and the Knapp has the thin spoked. (Thanks to Jim Heckard)
             
            Sound to me like you had one or the other and you traded an original tender with a later bowser tender..  however, Varney did make a Mountain and I do believe it came with a cast brass Boiler. I am not sure what other tenders Varney had. I do not beileve they had any cast brass.
             
            Sean
             
            Sean
            --- On Mon, 1/19/09, railwaymodeler <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com> wrote:
            From: railwaymodeler <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com>
            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
            Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 3:12 PM

            Now I am curious: I have a 4-8-2 Mountain class with that exact same
            tender. Did Mantua make a Mountain class ever? Gee, I picked up the
            Mountain for about $60, but it DOES run, and run well!

            The tender the Mountain had, I swapped it out for a Bowser tender, and
            gave the old cast brass or bronze (I think bronze) to my friend Bob,
            who runs the hobby shop.

            Strange, though- the Mountain has a pilot deck that says 'Varney' on
            it, though it doesn't look quite original to the locomotive.

            -Steve Neubaum

            --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hi all!
            >
            > Did anyone happen to see the sale go down last night?? I had to pull
            > myself away for the Steelers vs. Ravens game to see how it ended...
            >
            > $821 and listed as a Pre-War Varney...
            > 130280883110
            >
            >
            <http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& rd=1&item= 130280883110& ss\
            > PageName=STRK: MEWA:PIC& ih=003> Pre-war Varney Consolidation 2-8-0 Loco
            > & Tender
            >
            <http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& rd=1&item= 130280883110& ss\
            > PageName=STRK: MEWA:IT&ih= 003>
            >
            > That was amazing! [:O]
            >
            > Only Troy Polamalu's interseption and return for a touchdown last night,
            > putting the Steelers up by 9 put me closer to passing out from
            > excitement! [:))] Actually, I did lose my vision and did not catch it
            > until he was on the 5 and about to run into the endzone.. Took
            > everything I had at the time to stay consoius.. glad I was already
            > sitting down... Scared the hell out of me actually after it was all said
            > and done..
            >
            > But how about that Mantua!! Has anyone ever seen one go so high?
            >
            > Makes me happy to know I have mine.. Still looking for that Pacific
            > though.. Tha same seller had a pacific, but it was the Post-war
            > version..
            >
            > Sean
            >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8254 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/19/2009
            Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
            Hi Jim and Steve,
             
            Jim, you are right.. I did not even notice that the seller had mixed up the tenders..
             
            I did notice that he had a Mantua tender with this Varney consolidation, which is why I bid on it (didn't get it).
             
            120362303445
             
            Apparently, this tender is what should have gone with that $821 Mantua Consolidation...
             
            Imagine paying that much for a Mantua Consolidation and not even get the right tender with it??
             
            Seaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan
             
            oops.. got a little carried away there..


            --- On Mon, 1/19/09, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
            From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 6:59 PM

            Steve & Sean,
                     I have to add some things to your discussion about a possible Mantua 4-8-2 Mountain. I know Sean is right in that before the war Mantua had a 4-8-2 mechanism and  has a Mantua box to prove it. As to a complete (boiler and all) Manua Mountain let me cite a Mantua 1948 catalog, page 7.   " But Mantua has a new one up it's sleeve, right now. I've looked with awe at a drawing, and needed only that and familiarity with the rest of the Mantua family, plus a few whispered red hot tips about it's brand new features, to tell me (the author) that Mantua's new 4-8-2 Mountain type job is going to open new territory". While there is more to this article my one finger will fall off. Needless to say I can't verify if it was ever produced.
                   Sean , my old eyes might deceive me but it looked to me that the tender that went off with that pre war Mantua 2-8-0 last night was a Cast Knapp or Bowser Mountain tender which were actually the same thing. (The pictures of the last nights Ebay item left a little to be desired.)
                     Another point is that Varney produced NO Mountain that I remember. They had a number of engines with 8 drivers (Consolidation, Mikado, Berkshire and Northern) but I don't remember any Varney Mountain. Also Varney did sell (I think A&S cast it for them) one brass and or bronze tender. It was a Vanderbilt style like their Aluminum Vanderbilt tender.
                   Like Sean stated I know of no other cast brass Mountain then the Knapp/Bowser. They used the same boiler (and tender) but Bowser had a different drive then the Knapp.
                   Steve maybe it would be a good idea if you can to take a picture (s) and post them. Perhaps an identity can be made that way. Hope that helps.
                                                                     Jim H
             
             
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:39 PM
            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...

            Hi Steve,
             Mantua did make a Mountain mechanism (only) kit. I have one. They are very very rare. It did not come with a boiler or tender. As far as I know, a complete engine was never produced.
             
            You stated this had a cast brass or bronze tender. The Consolidation that ended last night had a sheet brass or bronze tender. The only mountains I know know of that had cast brass tenders wer made by Bowser or Knapp.  The difference I know between the two is Bowser has the box spoke drivers and the Knapp has the thin spoked. (Thanks to Jim Heckard)
             
            Sound to me like you had one or the other and you traded an original tender with a later bowser tender..  however, Varney did make a Mountain and I do believe it came with a cast brass Boiler. I am not sure what other tenders Varney had. I do not beileve they had any cast brass.
             
            Sean
             
            Sean
            --- On Mon, 1/19/09, railwaymodeler <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com> wrote:
            From: railwaymodeler <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com>
            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
            Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 3:12 PM

            Now I am curious: I have a 4-8-2 Mountain class with that exact same
            tender. Did Mantua make a Mountain class ever? Gee, I picked up the
            Mountain for about $60, but it DOES run, and run well!

            The tender the Mountain had, I swapped it out for a Bowser tender, and
            gave the old cast brass or bronze (I think bronze) to my friend Bob,
            who runs the hobby shop.

            Strange, though- the Mountain has a pilot deck that says 'Varney' on
            it, though it doesn't look quite original to the locomotive.

            -Steve Neubaum

            --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hi all!
            >
            > Did anyone happen to see the sale go down last night?? I had to pull
            > myself away for the Steelers vs. Ravens game to see how it ended...
            >
            > $821 and listed as a Pre-War Varney...
            > 130280883110
            >
            >
            <http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& rd=1&item= 130280883110& ss\
            > PageName=STRK: MEWA:PIC& ih=003> Pre-war Varney Consolidation 2-8-0 Loco
            > & Tender
            >
            <http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& rd=1&item= 130280883110& ss\
            > PageName=STRK: MEWA:IT&ih= 003>
            >
            > That was amazing! [:O]
            >
            > Only Troy Polamalu's interseption and return for a touchdown last night,
            > putting the Steelers up by 9 put me closer to passing out from
            > excitement! [:))] Actually, I did lose my vision and did not catch it
            > until he was on the 5 and about to run into the endzone.. Took
            > everything I had at the time to stay consoius.. glad I was already
            > sitting down... Scared the hell out of me actually after it was all said
            > and done..
            >
            > But how about that Mantua!! Has anyone ever seen one go so high?
            >
            > Makes me happy to know I have mine.. Still looking for that Pacific
            > though.. Tha same seller had a pacific, but it was the Post-war
            > version..
            >
            > Sean
            >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8255 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/19/2009
            Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
            Sean,
                 After you sent the Email about the sale I wanted to write back and say he paid a little to much. I felt he went overboard $21 since it was the wrong tender. While that Mantua Consolidation is a rare hard to find piece I think it went just a tad to high but I hope all vintage HO keeps getting higher and higher. Makes my collection worth more. Maybe I should buy Super Bowl tickets to see the Cardinals ? (Ouch I bet that hurt).
                                                                                                       Jim H
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 7:18 PM
            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...

            Hi Jim and Steve,
             
            Jim, you are right.. I did not even notice that the seller had mixed up the tenders..
             
            I did notice that he had a Mantua tender with this Varney consolidation, which is why I bid on it (didn't get it).
             
            120362303445
             
            Apparently, this tender is what should have gone with that $821 Mantua Consolidation. ..
             
            Imagine paying that much for a Mantua Consolidation and not even get the right tender with it??
             
            Seaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan
             
            oops.. got a little carried away there..


            --- On Mon, 1/19/09, Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
            From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
            Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 6:59 PM

            Steve & Sean,
                     I have to add some things to your discussion about a possible Mantua 4-8-2 Mountain. I know Sean is right in that before the war Mantua had a 4-8-2 mechanism and  has a Mantua box to prove it. As to a complete (boiler and all) Manua Mountain let me cite a Mantua 1948 catalog, page 7.   " But Mantua has a new one up it's sleeve, right now. I've looked with awe at a drawing, and needed only that and familiarity with the rest of the Mantua family, plus a few whispered red hot tips about it's brand new features, to tell me (the author) that Mantua's new 4-8-2 Mountain type job is going to open new territory". While there is more to this article my one finger will fall off. Needless to say I can't verify if it was ever produced.
                   Sean , my old eyes might deceive me but it looked to me that the tender that went off with that pre war Mantua 2-8-0 last night was a Cast Knapp or Bowser Mountain tender which were actually the same thing. (The pictures of the last nights Ebay item left a little to be desired.)
                     Another point is that Varney produced NO Mountain that I remember. They had a number of engines with 8 drivers (Consolidation, Mikado, Berkshire and Northern) but I don't remember any Varney Mountain. Also Varney did sell (I think A&S cast it for them) one brass and or bronze tender. It was a Vanderbilt style like their Aluminum Vanderbilt tender.
                   Like Sean stated I know of no other cast brass Mountain then the Knapp/Bowser. They used the same boiler (and tender) but Bowser had a different drive then the Knapp.
                   Steve maybe it would be a good idea if you can to take a picture (s) and post them. Perhaps an identity can be made that way. Hope that helps.
                                                                     Jim H
             
             
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:39 PM
            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...

            Hi Steve,
             Mantua did make a Mountain mechanism (only) kit. I have one. They are very very rare. It did not come with a boiler or tender. As far as I know, a complete engine was never produced.
             
            You stated this had a cast brass or bronze tender. The Consolidation that ended last night had a sheet brass or bronze tender. The only mountains I know know of that had cast brass tenders wer made by Bowser or Knapp.  The difference I know between the two is Bowser has the box spoke drivers and the Knapp has the thin spoked. (Thanks to Jim Heckard)
             
            Sound to me like you had one or the other and you traded an original tender with a later bowser tender..  however, Varney did make a Mountain and I do believe it came with a cast brass Boiler. I am not sure what other tenders Varney had. I do not beileve they had any cast brass.
             
            Sean
             
            Sean
            --- On Mon, 1/19/09, railwaymodeler <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com> wrote:
            From: railwaymodeler <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com>
            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
            Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 3:12 PM

            Now I am curious: I have a 4-8-2 Mountain class with that exact same
            tender. Did Mantua make a Mountain class ever? Gee, I picked up the
            Mountain for about $60, but it DOES run, and run well!

            The tender the Mountain had, I swapped it out for a Bowser tender, and
            gave the old cast brass or bronze (I think bronze) to my friend Bob,
            who runs the hobby shop.

            Strange, though- the Mountain has a pilot deck that says 'Varney' on
            it, though it doesn't look quite original to the locomotive.

            -Steve Neubaum

            --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hi all!
            >
            > Did anyone happen to see the sale go down last night?? I had to pull
            > myself away for the Steelers vs. Ravens game to see how it ended...
            >
            > $821 and listed as a Pre-War Varney...
            > 130280883110
            >
            >
            <http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& rd=1&item= 130280883110& ss\
            > PageName=STRK: MEWA:PIC& ih=003> Pre-war Varney Consolidation 2-8-0 Loco
            > & Tender
            >
            <http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& rd=1&item= 130280883110& ss\
            > PageName=STRK: MEWA:IT&ih= 003>
            >
            > That was amazing! [:O]
            >
            > Only Troy Polamalu's interseption and return for a touchdown last night,
            > putting the Steelers up by 9 put me closer to passing out from
            > excitement! [:))] Actually, I did lose my vision and did not catch it
            > until he was on the 5 and about to run into the endzone.. Took
            > everything I had at the time to stay consoius.. glad I was already
            > sitting down... Scared the hell out of me actually after it was all said
            > and done..
            >
            > But how about that Mantua!! Has anyone ever seen one go so high?
            >
            > Makes me happy to know I have mine.. Still looking for that Pacific
            > though.. Tha same seller had a pacific, but it was the Post-war
            > version..
            >
            > Sean
            >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8256 From: Russ Shiel Date: 1/20/2009
            Subject: Red Ball resolved...now...
            Much appreciated Ray! The stack of unidentified Red Ball sides is much reduced!
             
            Another question for the group...perhaps not sufficiently vintage...in a batch of HO freight cars arrived recently, a very nicely built NYNH&H wooden boxcar, similar quality to Ambroid...'Olympic Cascadian Car and Foundry' is on the box label. Can anyone help with some background on this manufacturer? When, and what other cars were produced?
             
            Best to all!
            Russ
             

             

            Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look.
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8257 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/20/2009
            Subject: Re: Red Ball resolved...now...
            G'day Russ,
             
            I can not help with the identity of the New Haven car, but I would love to work up a trade of some sort for it. I collect any New Haven equipment I can find. (hopfully with my new layout I will be able to run them rather than just collect them).
             
            You name your price...
             
            Later!
             
            Sean

            --- On Tue, 1/20/09, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote:
            From: Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...>
            Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball resolved...now...
            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 5:19 AM

            Much appreciated Ray! The stack of unidentified Red Ball sides is much reduced!
             
            Another question for the group...perhaps not sufficiently vintage...in a batch of HO freight cars arrived recently, a very nicely built NYNH&H wooden boxcar, similar quality to Ambroid...'Olympic Cascadian Car and Foundry' is on the box label. Can anyone help with some background on this manufacturer? When, and what other cars were produced?
             
            Best to all!
            Russ
             

             

            Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look.

            Group: vintageHO Message: 8258 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/20/2009
            Subject: Re: Red Ball resolved...now...
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Russ Shiel" <rshiel01@...>
            To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 4:19 AM
            Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball resolved...now...


            Much appreciated Ray! The stack of unidentified Red Ball sides is much
            reduced!

            Another question for the group...perhaps not sufficiently vintage...in a
            batch of HO freight cars arrived recently, a very nicely built NYNH&H wooden
            boxcar, similar quality to Ambroid...'Olympic Cascadian Car and Foundry' is
            on the box label. Can anyone help with some background on this manufacturer?
            When, and what other cars were produced?

            Best to all!
            Russ

            Hopefully someone will have more definitive information, but I do recall the
            ads in Model Railroader ca. early to mid 1960's. I'll look downstairs see
            if I can find something. There was never a big ad, just a little one, maybe
            two column inches with a photo.

            Don

            Don Dellmann
            don.dellmann@...
            http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
            http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
            Owner
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8259 From: Larry Date: 1/20/2009
            Subject: Re: Red Ball resolved...now...
            I found this Redball NYNH&H wooden grain car. Might this be your
            boxcar?
            http://www.hoseeker.org/redball/redballflyerpg05.jpg

            I do have six or seven Redball catalogs to edit and add to HOseeker.

            Larry
            http://www.hoseeker.org/

            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote:
            >
            > Much appreciated Ray! The stack of unidentified Red Ball sides is
            much reduced!
            >
            > Another question for the group...perhaps not sufficiently
            vintage...in a batch of HO freight cars arrived recently, a very
            nicely built NYNH&H wooden boxcar, similar quality to
            Ambroid...'Olympic Cascadian Car and Foundry' is on the box label.
            Can anyone help with some background on this manufacturer? When, and
            what other cars were produced?
            >
            > Best to all!
            > Russ
            >
            >
            > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter
            inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox
            >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8260 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/20/2009
            Subject: Re: Red Ball resolved...now...
            Hi larry,
             
            That is a New York Central & Hartford RR grain car.
             
            NYNH&H is short for New York, New Haven & Hartford RR 
             
            If I see those, I try to get them too, but they are a different line. .. as far as I understand it..
             
            Sean

            --- On Tue, 1/20/09, Larry <seekingho@...> wrote:
            From: Larry <seekingho@...>
            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball resolved...now...
            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 9:20 AM

            I found this Redball NYNH&H wooden grain car. Might this be your
            boxcar?
            http://www.hoseeker .org/redball/ redballflyerpg05 .jpg

            I do have six or seven Redball catalogs to edit and add to HOseeker.

            Larry
            http://www.hoseeker .org/

            --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@.. .> wrote:
            >
            > Much appreciated Ray! The stack of unidentified Red Ball sides is
            much reduced!
            >
            > Another question for the group...perhaps not sufficiently
            vintage...in a batch of HO freight cars arrived recently, a very
            nicely built NYNH&H wooden boxcar, similar quality to
            Ambroid...'Olympic Cascadian Car and Foundry' is on the box label.
            Can anyone help with some background on this manufacturer? When, and
            what other cars were produced?
            >
            > Best to all!
            > Russ
            >
            >
            > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter
            inbox. Take a look http://au.docs. yahoo.com/ mail/smarterinbo x
            >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8261 From: erieberk Date: 1/20/2009
            Subject: Re: Red Ball resolved...now...
            Russ, Glad I could be of help. Will post the Red Ball reefers as soon
            as I get a chance, hopefully later today. Olympic Cascadian is
            certainly sufficiently "vintage" enough for me. I would include them
            (I do include them!) along with Marker Lights, George Taylor and even
            Con-Cor in my collection.

            Olympic Cascadian is a small line of excellent craftsman kit box cars.
            As far as I know they only made a handful (maybe 10) of kits, but as
            you comment, thery built up very nicely. I believe I have their
            catalog somewhere, but will have to look for it. In the mean time,
            I'll give you this info from my inventory listings (I think I'm missing
            only one, but possibly two) of kits I have on this manufacturer. As
            far as I know, there was only one car number per road name.

            Kit # 101 NH (NYNH&H -- New York New Haven & Hartford) 67320

            Kit # 102 GN (Great Northern) 49470

            Kit # 103 NP (Northern Pacific) 207289

            Kit # 104 CNJ (Central of New Jersey) 35729

            Kit # 105 ???

            Kit # 106 P&LE / NYC (Pittsburg & Lake Erie - New York Central) 33199

            Kit # 107 PC 4092

            Kit # 108 SP (Southern Pacific) 36495

            Kit # 109 GC 4937

            I don't remember what the reporting marks for PC is (it's not Penn
            Central), or GC (not sure if it may be Georgia Central), but will check
            my collection to find out (may take a short while to find them). Ray




            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote:
            >
            > Much appreciated Ray! The stack of unidentified Red Ball sides is
            much reduced!
            >
            > Another question for the group...perhaps not sufficiently
            vintage...in a batch of HO freight cars arrived recently, a very nicely
            built NYNH&H wooden boxcar, similar quality to Ambroid...'Olympic
            Cascadian Car and Foundry' is on the box label. Can anyone help with
            some background on this manufacturer? When, and what other cars were
            produced?
            >
            > Best to all!
            > Russ
            >
            >
            > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter
            inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox
            >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8262 From: Ed Weldon Date: 1/20/2009
            Subject: First Roundhouse 0-6-0's w/ lead cast boilers and brass cabs
            Can any of you guys shed light on the earliest versions of the HO
            Roundhouse 0-6-0's with lead cast boilers and brass cabs?
            I've been told they were built and a few sold by Cliff Grandt.
            What was Cliff's connection to the actual die cast Roundhouse
            production design of this loco?
            How many of this early construction were actually made and/or sold?
            What were the dates of production?
            I have two of them, one fairly nice, the other a bit rough. Before I
            start messing with them, detailing or remotoring, I want to know if
            there is anything particularly special or rare about them that I
            probably should know about before I start drilling and filing.
            Any info or leads to other web pages would be much appreciated.
            thanks, Ed Weldon
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8263 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/20/2009
            Subject: Re: First Roundhouse 0-6-0's w/ lead cast boilers and brass cabs
            My understanding is that he cut the original dies for a shop called "The
            Roundhouse " before WWII. His son Dave is on several of these groups--mainly
            the On3 and Colorado Narrow Gauge oriented ones.

            I have a postwar kit with a 5-piece cab--made in mid 1948 as the box has one
            address and the instructions a different-- the dates pinned down in MR ads.
            gj
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon@...>
            To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:38 AM
            Subject: [vintageHO] First Roundhouse 0-6-0's w/ lead cast boilers and brass
            cabs


            > Can any of you guys shed light on the earliest versions of the HO
            > Roundhouse 0-6-0's with lead cast boilers and brass cabs?
            > I've been told they were built and a few sold by Cliff Grandt.
            > What was Cliff's connection to the actual die cast Roundhouse
            > production design of this loco?
            > How many of this early construction were actually made and/or sold?
            > What were the dates of production?
            > I have two of them, one fairly nice, the other a bit rough. Before I
            > start messing with them, detailing or remotoring, I want to know if
            > there is anything particularly special or rare about them that I
            > probably should know about before I start drilling and filing.
            > Any info or leads to other web pages would be much appreciated.
            > thanks, Ed Weldon
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >


            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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            2:34 PM
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8264 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/20/2009
            Subject: Re: Red Ball resolved...now...
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
            To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 9:52 AM
            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball resolved...now...


            > Russ, Glad I could be of help. Will post the Red Ball reefers as soon
            > as I get a chance, hopefully later today. Olympic Cascadian is
            > certainly sufficiently "vintage" enough for me. I would include them
            > (I do include them!) along with Marker Lights, George Taylor and even
            > Con-Cor in my collection.
            >
            > Olympic Cascadian is a small line of excellent craftsman kit box cars.
            > As far as I know they only made a handful (maybe 10) of kits, but as
            > you comment, thery built up very nicely. I believe I have their
            > catalog somewhere, but will have to look for it. In the mean time,
            > I'll give you this info from my inventory listings (I think I'm missing
            > only one, but possibly two) of kits I have on this manufacturer. As
            > far as I know, there was only one car number per road name.
            >
            > Kit # 101 NH (NYNH&H -- New York New Haven & Hartford) 67320
            >
            > Kit # 102 GN (Great Northern) 49470
            >
            > Kit # 103 NP (Northern Pacific) 207289
            >
            > Kit # 104 CNJ (Central of New Jersey) 35729
            >
            > Kit # 105 ???
            >
            > Kit # 106 P&LE / NYC (Pittsburg & Lake Erie - New York Central) 33199
            >
            > Kit # 107 PC 4092
            >
            > Kit # 108 SP (Southern Pacific) 36495
            >
            > Kit # 109 GC 4937
            >
            > I don't remember what the reporting marks for PC is (it's not Penn
            > Central), or GC (not sure if it may be Georgia Central), but will check
            > my collection to find out (may take a short while to find them). Ray

            I did find my own personal notes from way back when. They do not indicate
            kit numbers or car numbers, and they're just that, personal notes garnered
            from catalogs, ads etc.,
            BUT, Under Olympic Cascadian I find listed a single kit, "1900 era double
            sheathed truss rod box car" as being available in the following road names.

            NH (2 different schemes, "regular" and "Script")
            GN (2 different schemes, "regular" and "billboard")
            NP
            SP
            CP (I wonder if that's your "PC")
            CofG

            Don

            Don Dellmann
            don.dellmann@...
            http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
            http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
            Owner
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8265 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/20/2009
            Subject: Re: First Roundhouse 0-6-0's w/ lead cast boilers and brass cabs
                  Ed                           I have a date of 1939 for the first Roundhouse/MDC 0-6-0 engine. I'm pretty sure MDC produced it right up to it's end. There were many different runs with little changes here and there. As far as production amounts I would put it pretty high but hard to say how high. I don't find it as a pricey, rare,  hard to find item. That is not to knock it or any other Roundhouse/MDC engine. If the two you have were made pre war their value would probably be higher.
                     As to keep them as they are or make changes will be a personal choice. I hate to see true vintage items reworked but many others feel that they can be improved with new motors and detail.
                     Over the years I have not seen the 0-6-0 sell for any large amounts so if you are asking would you lose much by modifying it I don't think so. Still a neat little item. I would like to know for sure if the brass cab was for MDC (and not changed by someone) and if they were the first run made pre war.
                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                            
                                                                         
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Ed Weldon
            Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 1:38 PM
            Subject: [vintageHO] First Roundhouse 0-6-0's w/ lead cast boilers and brass cabs

            Can any of you guys shed light on the earliest versions of the HO
            Roundhouse 0-6-0's with lead cast boilers and brass cabs?
            I've been told they were built and a few sold by Cliff Grandt.
            What was Cliff's connection to the actual die cast Roundhouse
            production design of this loco?
            How many of this early construction were actually made and/or sold?
            What were the dates of production?
            I have two of them, one fairly nice, the other a bit rough. Before I
            start messing with them, detailing or remotoring, I want to know if
            there is anything particularly special or rare about them that I
            probably should know about before I start drilling and filing.
            Any info or leads to other web pages would be much appreciated.
            thanks, Ed Weldon
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8266 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: Red Ball resolved...now...
            Russ,

            These kits were from the late 60s and early 70s as I recall (I am
            5000 miles from my magazine collection at the moment.) I have two of
            their kits, one for an SP boxcar and the other for an NP boxcar. When
            I get home (in April) if I can still remember I'll check dates and
            photo the kits for you unless others have more info.

            Matt Coleman


            > Another question for the group...perhaps not sufficiently
            vintage...in a batch of HO freight cars arrived recently, a very
            nicely built NYNH&H wooden boxcar, similar quality to
            Ambroid...'Olympic Cascadian Car and Foundry' is on the box label.
            Can anyone help with some background on this manufacturer? When, and
            what other cars were produced?
            >
            > Best to all!
            > Russ
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8267 From: Russ Shiel Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Olympic Cascadian
            Many thanks respondees...that's 100% more than I had before!...now have a time frame for sleuthing some of the late 60's mags...Larry...will scan and send instr. sheets when my current dead-USB-hub problem is resolved...peripherals no longer recognized...so no scanner, keyboard, mouse, cameras. Am told by my resident computer-ept postdoc that 'a new mother board is needed'. Bring back the IBM golball typewriter, I say, it never died mid-sentence on me...(8>{)! Chrs! Russ

            Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look.
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8268 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Af
            Hi Ya'll,
             
            I don't know if non-members of GUARC can view the video or not, but if you can, its definately something to think about............:o)
             
            Gary W

             
            Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


            ----- Forwarded Message ----
            From: RGoodell <rgoodell@...>
            To: rgoodell@...
            Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 11:36:08 PM
            Subject: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Affects Everyone

            The GAUX Dispatcher has posted a new item:

            '"Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Affects Everyone'

            You may view the latest post at
            http://news.gaurc.us/?p=998

            You received this e-mail because you asked to be notified when new updates are
            posted.

            Best regards,
            RGoodell
            rgoodell@...
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8269 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
            This one only hints at reality.  I am a chaplain that makes the death notifications and works with the people to whom I give the notifications in my jurisdiction and I am a traffic safety officer that works accident scenes.  Thanks for sharing the video.

            Don in VA
            ===========================================

            Gary Woodard wrote:
            Hi Ya'll,
             
            I don't know if non-members of GUARC can view the video or not, but if you can, its definately something to think about....... .....:o)
             
            Gary W

             
            Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


            ----- Forwarded Message ----
            From: RGoodell <rgoodell@gaurc. us>
            To: rgoodell@gaurc. us
            Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 11:36:08 PM
            Subject: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Affects Everyone

            The GAUX Dispatcher has posted a new item:

            '"Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Affects Everyone'

            You may view the latest post at
            http://news. gaurc.us/ ?p=998

            You received this e-mail because you asked to be notified when new updates are
            posted.

            Best regards,
            RGoodell
            rgoodell@gaurc. us
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8270 From: Larry Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: HO Trains
            I have read on many different forums that HO trains are not collectible
            but O scale Lionel is. I think this myth has finally been settled.
            Recently HOseeker.net was selected by two website to be added to their
            link pages. These were the Collectors Weekly and the Collectors-Museum
            websites.
            In my personal opinion I think HO trains have finally reached the
            status of being collectible.
            Larry
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8271 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: HO Trains
            Ho trains have always been collectible since I started working with them in 1958.  I made it a point to collect the older stuff that interested me then and since.  Regrettably I had to sell my collections several times and kept the residue that would not sell.  Today I still have 2 Hobbline Berks powered by Mantua Mike mechanisms.  One of those mechs was made in mid '40's and has some casting deterioration.  I also have a collection of some kits that were never assembled. 
            I made a C&O 4-8-4 from two Hobbyline Berks and planned for a C&O 2-10-4 from two more Berks.  I also made a C&O 2-8-8-2 from an early AHM Cab Forward.  I built these locos before they were ever made in brass.  I shortened Hobbyline hoppers to 3 bay...  Converted their cabooses to C&O and have several of their boxcars and cabooses that I did not assemble.  In fact I have a lot of kits of various mfgrs. that I have not assembled.  I may get to them someday.  Building or running or viewing videos of trains or reading train books plus my train repair business gives me plenty of variations of interest and gives me rewarding breaks from my full time professions that involve stress and people problems.

            Collect them and enjoy them no matter what others say.  From what I see on eBay old and used HO is still selling well...  Some high, some low.  I collect any trains that interest me in all scales including 3" scale.  Happy railroading...
            Don in VA
            ====================================================

            Larry wrote:

            I have read on many different forums that HO trains are not collectible
            but O scale Lionel is. I think this myth has finally been settled.
            Recently HOseeker.net was selected by two website to be added to their
            link pages. These were the Collectors Weekly and the Collectors-Museum
            websites.
            In my personal opinion I think HO trains have finally reached the
            status of being collectible.
            Larry
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8272 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: HO Trains
            I don't know about anyone else, but I have been collecting HO for over 20 years..
             
            Didn't need some Magazine or Museum to tell me that they were collectable..
             
            My comments are in no way meant to be insulting to you Larry, I just think it is funny...
             
            Some of those O scale Lionel guys think they are the only ones out there... 
             
            Sean

            --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Larry <seekingho@...> wrote:
            From: Larry <seekingho@...>
            Subject: [vintageHO] HO Trains
            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 9:07 AM

            I have read on many different forums that HO trains are not collectible
            but O scale Lionel is. I think this myth has finally been settled.
            Recently HOseeker.net was selected by two website to be added to their
            link pages. These were the Collectors Weekly and the Collectors-Museum
            websites.
            In my personal opinion I think HO trains have finally reached the
            status of being collectible.
            Larry
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8273 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: HO Trains
            Hello Sean, good to meet you here.  I just purchased two Athearn locos from you.  Thanks...
            Don in VA
            =================================================

            Sean Naylor wrote:

            I don't know about anyone else, but I have been collecting HO for over 20 years..
             
            Didn't need some Magazine or Museum to tell me that they were collectable. .
             
            My comments are in no way meant to be insulting to you Larry, I just think it is funny...
             
            Some of those O scale Lionel guys think they are the only ones out there... 
             
            Sean

            --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Larry <seekingho@yahoo. com> wrote:
            From: Larry <seekingho@yahoo. com>
            Subject: [vintageHO] HO Trains
            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
            Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 9:07 AM

            I have read on many different forums that HO trains are not collectible
            but O scale Lionel is. I think this myth has finally been settled.
            Recently HOseeker.net was selected by two website to be added to their
            link pages. These were the Collectors Weekly and the Collectors-Museum
            websites.
            In my personal opinion I think HO trains have finally reached the
            status of being collectible.
            Larry

            Group: vintageHO Message: 8274 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: HO Trains
                   I, like many others have, always believed that HO products would become the next wave as far as collecting trains. When I first became interested in HO in 1958 I wanted to start getting everything I could lay my hands on. Over the years I tried to collect as much early vintage HO as could. While it was a lot harder to find them I believed they would become popular someday just as I had seen Lionel O and American Flyer S.
                  I saw how the value on some Lionel O went through the roof. I had an original (not the later copy) Lionel O Gauge Hiawatha 4-4-2 Streamliner passenger set. The set was bought for $39.95. I sold it years ago, as I got deeper into HO, for $1500 to a person I thought was nuts. Because of that sale I went deep into the oldest vintage HO I could find. I bought items at very low prices (by todays standards) and I know if I put my collection up for sale the value has more then doubled from my original investment. So let people tell you HO is useless but remember it took a couple of years before Lionel O & American Flyer S became the collecting rage.
                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                   
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Larry
            Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:07 AM
            Subject: [vintageHO] HO Trains

            I have read on many different forums that HO trains are not collectible
            but O scale Lionel is. I think this myth has finally been settled.
            Recently HOseeker.net was selected by two website to be added to their
            link pages. These were the Collectors Weekly and the Collectors-Museum
            websites.
            In my personal opinion I think HO trains have finally reached the
            status of being collectible.
            Larry
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8275 From: John Hagen Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: HO Trains
            With $1200.00 Penn Line Crusaders and $800.00 Mantua 2-8-0's I think
            that HO is definitely getting collectable.

            John Hagen

            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
            >
            > I, like many others have, always believed that HO products
            would become the next wave as far as collecting trains. When I first
            became interested in HO in 1958 I wanted to start getting everything
            I could lay my hands on. Over the years I tried to collect as much
            early vintage HO as could. While it was a lot harder to find them I
            believed they would become popular someday just as I had seen Lionel
            O and American Flyer S.
            > I saw how the value on some Lionel O went through the roof. I
            had an original (not the later copy) Lionel O Gauge Hiawatha 4-4-2
            Streamliner passenger set. The set was bought for $39.95. I sold it
            years ago, as I got deeper into HO, for $1500 to a person I thought
            was nuts. Because of that sale I went deep into the oldest vintage HO
            I could find. I bought items at very low prices (by todays standards)
            and I know if I put my collection up for sale the value has more then
            doubled from my original investment. So let people tell you HO is
            useless but remember it took a couple of years before Lionel O &
            American Flyer S became the collecting rage.
            >
            Jim H
            >

            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Larry
            > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:07 AM
            > Subject: [vintageHO] HO Trains
            >
            >
            > I have read on many different forums that HO trains are not
            collectible
            > but O scale Lionel is. I think this myth has finally been settled.
            > Recently HOseeker.net was selected by two website to be added to
            their
            > link pages. These were the Collectors Weekly and the Collectors-
            Museum
            > websites.
            > In my personal opinion I think HO trains have finally reached the
            > status of being collectible.
            > Larry
            >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8276 From: erieberk Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: Red Ball resolved...now...
            Don, Okay thanks, yes that "PC" car might be CP, I'll look into
            that. For some reason (probably a mistaken one), I had in my mind
            that it may have been some California short line, like PE (Pacific
            Electric), similar to Silver Streak's PE. If your notes say C of G,
            that's undoubtedly Central of Georgia. I probably made the note GC
            for short, thinking I'd remember what it was (now, after 30 years --
            LOL). Ray



            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
            > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 9:52 AM
            > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball resolved...now...
            >
            >
            > > Russ, Glad I could be of help. Will post the Red Ball reefers
            as soon
            > > as I get a chance, hopefully later today. Olympic Cascadian is
            > > certainly sufficiently "vintage" enough for me. I would include
            them
            > > (I do include them!) along with Marker Lights, George Taylor and
            even
            > > Con-Cor in my collection.
            > >
            > > Olympic Cascadian is a small line of excellent craftsman kit box
            cars.
            > > As far as I know they only made a handful (maybe 10) of kits, but
            as
            > > you comment, thery built up very nicely. I believe I have their
            > > catalog somewhere, but will have to look for it. In the mean
            time,
            > > I'll give you this info from my inventory listings (I think I'm
            missing
            > > only one, but possibly two) of kits I have on this manufacturer.
            As
            > > far as I know, there was only one car number per road name.
            > >
            > > Kit # 101 NH (NYNH&H -- New York New Haven & Hartford) 67320
            > >
            > > Kit # 102 GN (Great Northern) 49470
            > >
            > > Kit # 103 NP (Northern Pacific) 207289
            > >
            > > Kit # 104 CNJ (Central of New Jersey) 35729
            > >
            > > Kit # 105 ???
            > >
            > > Kit # 106 P&LE / NYC (Pittsburg & Lake Erie - New York Central)
            33199
            > >
            > > Kit # 107 PC 4092
            > >
            > > Kit # 108 SP (Southern Pacific) 36495
            > >
            > > Kit # 109 GC 4937
            > >
            > > I don't remember what the reporting marks for PC is (it's not Penn
            > > Central), or GC (not sure if it may be Georgia Central), but will
            check
            > > my collection to find out (may take a short while to find them).
            Ray
            >
            > I did find my own personal notes from way back when. They do not
            indicate
            > kit numbers or car numbers, and they're just that, personal notes
            garnered
            > from catalogs, ads etc.,
            > BUT, Under Olympic Cascadian I find listed a single kit, "1900 era
            double
            > sheathed truss rod box car" as being available in the following
            road names.
            >
            > NH (2 different schemes, "regular" and "Script")
            > GN (2 different schemes, "regular" and "billboard")
            > NP
            > SP
            > CP (I wonder if that's your "PC")
            > CofG
            >
            > Don
            >
            > Don Dellmann
            > don.dellmann@...
            > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
            > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
            > Owner
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
            >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8277 From: erieberk Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: HO Trains
            If you think $1200 is a bit heavy to pay for a model, just be lucky
            you're not into collecting railroadiana. Someone this morning just
            paid $537 for a piece of printed cardboard!!! There was a Reading
            Lines breakfast menu from the innaugural run of the stainless steel
            streamlined Crusader train accompanied with a souvenir reservation
            ticket for the 1st run (December 12, 1937). These guys are serious
            about collecting stuff from their favorite railroad name trains.
            Ebay # 330301180131. Ray W.



            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
            >
            > With $1200.00 Penn Line Crusaders and $800.00 Mantua 2-8-0's I
            think
            > that HO is definitely getting collectable.
            >
            > John Hagen
            >
            > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I, like many others have, always believed that HO products
            > would become the next wave as far as collecting trains. When I
            first
            > became interested in HO in 1958 I wanted to start getting
            everything
            > I could lay my hands on. Over the years I tried to collect as much
            > early vintage HO as could. While it was a lot harder to find them I
            > believed they would become popular someday just as I had seen
            Lionel
            > O and American Flyer S.
            > > I saw how the value on some Lionel O went through the roof.
            I
            > had an original (not the later copy) Lionel O Gauge Hiawatha 4-4-2
            > Streamliner passenger set. The set was bought for $39.95. I sold it
            > years ago, as I got deeper into HO, for $1500 to a person I thought
            > was nuts. Because of that sale I went deep into the oldest vintage
            HO
            > I could find. I bought items at very low prices (by todays
            standards)
            > and I know if I put my collection up for sale the value has more
            then
            > doubled from my original investment. So let people tell you HO is
            > useless but remember it took a couple of years before Lionel O &
            > American Flyer S became the collecting rage.
            >
            >
            > Jim H
            >
            >
            >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: Larry
            > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:07 AM
            > > Subject: [vintageHO] HO Trains
            > >
            > >
            > > I have read on many different forums that HO trains are not
            > collectible
            > > but O scale Lionel is. I think this myth has finally been
            settled.
            > > Recently HOseeker.net was selected by two website to be added
            to
            > their
            > > link pages. These were the Collectors Weekly and the Collectors-
            > Museum
            > > websites.
            > > In my personal opinion I think HO trains have finally reached
            the
            > > status of being collectible.
            > > Larry
            > >
            >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8278 From: John Hagen Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: HO Trains
            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
            >
            > If you think $1200 is a bit heavy to pay for a model, just be lucky
            > you're not into collecting railroadiana. Someone this morning just
            > paid $537 for a piece of printed cardboard!!! There was a Reading
            > Lines breakfast menu from the innaugural run of the stainless steel
            > streamlined Crusader train accompanied with a souvenir reservation
            > ticket for the 1st run (December 12, 1937). These guys are serious
            > about collecting stuff from their favorite railroad name trains.
            > Ebay # 330301180131. Ray W.
            >
            Thats why I don't collect railroadiana.

            John Hagen
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8279 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: HO Trains
            I've been collecting since the early '60's when my dad bought me my first Marx set. We added to it with a Varney set .... both collectable. While Marx and Varney are my main collector items, I've collected an odd piece now and then. But with all my collectables, they have Kadee's and are runners during my clubs open houses.
             
            Larry, I have had a link to HOseeker for two years now. I know it's used, I've had comments on the site.
             
            Steve
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:35 AM
            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HO Trains

            I don't know about anyone else, but I have been collecting HO for over 20 years..
             
            Didn't need some Magazine or Museum to tell me that they were collectable..
             
            My comments are in no way meant to be insulting to you Larry, I just think it is funny...
             
            Some of those O scale Lionel guys think they are the only ones out there... 
             
            Sean

            --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Larry <seekingho@...> wrote:
            From: Larry <seekingho@...>
            Subject: [vintageHO] HO Trains
            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 9:07 AM

            I have read on many different forums that HO trains are not collectible
            but O scale Lionel is. I think this myth has finally been settled.
            Recently HOseeker.net was selected by two website to be added to their
            link pages. These were the Collectors Weekly and the Collectors-Museum
            websites.
            In my personal opinion I think HO trains have finally reached the
            status of being collectible.
            Larry
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8280 From: erieberk Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: Red Ball Car Sides, Continued
            Following are the Red Ball Oldie Billboard Truss-Rod Reefer sides,
            all of which used Arch Bar trucks (except ERIE) in this section of
            the listing.

            S-15 Armour Veribest 35' #5325 [1903]

            S-30 Schlitz Beer 36' #3785 [1897]

            S-31 College Inn Foods 40' #104 [1929]

            S-37 King Packing Co. 40' #207 [1909]

            S-38 Heinz Pickles 35' #484 [1905]

            S-46 Missouri - Kansas - Texas 40' #52018 [1923]

            S-50 Meyer Kornblum 40' #119 [1925]

            S-57 Crazy Crystals 40' #521 [1919]

            S-58 Elwood's Root Beer 40' #500 [1928]

            S-60 Pabst Beer 35' #91021 [1914]

            S-61 Swift Premium Ham 34' #1952 [1904]

            S-73 NYLE&W (ERIE) B/C Rd 36' #345 [1890]

            S-83 Armour Packing Co. 34' #2901 [1880]

            S-93 Cudahys Sunlight 40' #8942 [1908]

            S-99 Western Fruit Express (GN) 40' #63175 [1912]

            S-101 Tiffany Summer & Winter 33' #577 [1868]

            S-101S Tiffany Summer & Winter w/Wt Sides 33' #? [1868]

            S-107 AT&SF 4-Door 36' #701 [1895]

            S-108 Roberts Meats 36' #1005 [1905]

            S-111 Canada Dry 36' #9104 [1926]

            S-112 Parrot Potatoes 40' #3304 [1916]

            S-119 Our Mothers Cocoa 40' #15037 [1920]

            S-122 Old Dutch Cleanser 40' #2953 [1920]

            S-124 Columbia Soup 36' #? [1910]

            S-128 Penn. Co. Union Line 40' #6829 [1875]

            S-130 Swifts Premium Bacon 36' #18527 [1904]

            S-131 Evansville Packing Co. 38' #84 [1910]

            S-132 Swifts Fresh Meats 36' #2813 [1888]

            S-133 Kingans Hams 36' #925 [1904]

            S-134 Kohrs Meats 40' #2601 [1930]

            S-136 Swartzchild & Sulzberger 34' #1675 [1905]

            S-137 Oppenheimer Sausage 38' #8025 [1908]

            S-146 Cliquot Club 36' Gray #1503 [1923]

            S-148 Armours Cloverbloom 40' #3985 [1933]

            S-156 Hershey's Chocolate 40' #1010 [1927]

            S-159 Ahnapee & Western 40' Red #3003 [1915]

            S-160 Fairmount Creamery 40' #30041 [1925]

            S-170 Brights Wines 41' #? [1930] (discontinued after Catalog #10

            S-170 Pacific Fruit Express (WP) #20457 [1920] (added w/Catalog #11)

            S-179 Curtis Candy 36' #? [1925] (discontinued after Catalog #10)

            S-179 Curtis Candy 41' #? [1914] (added w/Catalog #11)

            S-180 Cliquot Club 36' Green #1490 [1920]

            S-184 Goetz Brewing 40' #14313 [1923]

            S-185 Nuckolls Packing Co. 36' #101 [1925]

            S-186 Robin Hood Beer 42' #5300 [1928]

            S-187 Guzlit Beer 33' #39201 [?]

            S-195 Budweiser Beer 36' #2802 [1925]

            S-199 Hiram Walker Gin 40' #? [1915]

            Will cover Billboard Reefers with Steel Undercarriage, using
            Bettendorf Trucks, next. Ray Wetzel
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8281 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
               Not working for me. Most of the page loads, and the video controls appear momentarily, the disappear and I just get a black box that does nothing where the video should be.

                                Rick Jones


            --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
            I don't know if non-members of GUARC can view the video or not, but if you can, its definately something to think about............:o)

            ----- Forwarded Message ----
            From: RGoodell <rgoodell@...>

            The GAUX Dispatcher has posted a new item:

            '"Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Affects Everyone'

            You may view the latest post at
            http://news.gaurc.us/?p=998._,__
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8282 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
               Not working for me. Most of the page loads, and the video controls appear momentarily, the disappear and I just get a black box that does nothing where the video should be.

                                Rick Jones


            --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
            I don't know if non-members of GUARC can view the video or not, but if you can, its definately something to think about............:o)

            ----- Forwarded Message ----
            From: RGoodell <rgoodell@...>

            The GAUX Dispatcher has posted a new item:

            '"Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Affects Everyone'

            You may view the latest post at
            http://news.gaurc.us/?p=998._,__
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8283 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
            I had to wait for a while.  First the small black box loaded and ran...  Then the large black box loaded and ran.
            Don in VA

            Rick Jones wrote:

               Not working for me. Most of the page loads, and the video controls appear momentarily, the disappear and I just get a black box that does nothing where the video should be.

                                Rick Jones


            --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> wrote:
            I don't know if non-members of GUARC can view the video or not, but if you can, its definately something to think about....... .....:o)

            ----- Forwarded Message ----
            From: RGoodell <rgoodell@gaurc. us>

            The GAUX Dispatcher has posted a new item:

            '"Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Affects Everyone'

            You may view the latest post at
            http://news. gaurc.us/ ?p=998._,__

            Group: vintageHO Message: 8284 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: HO Trains
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
            To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:15 AM
            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains


            > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> If you think $1200 is a bit heavy to pay for a model, just be lucky
            >> you're not into collecting railroadiana. Someone this morning just
            >> paid $537 for a piece of printed cardboard!!! There was a Reading
            >> Lines breakfast menu from the innaugural run of the stainless steel
            >> streamlined Crusader train accompanied with a souvenir reservation
            >> ticket for the 1st run (December 12, 1937). These guys are serious
            >> about collecting stuff from their favorite railroad name trains.
            >> Ebay # 330301180131. Ray W.
            >>
            > Thats why I don't collect railroadiana.
            >
            > John Hagen

            I have TWO souvenir programs from the 1948 Chicago Railroad Fair. Will I be
            able to retire on them? :-)

            Don

            Don Dellmann
            don.dellmann@...
            http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
            http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
            Owner
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8285 From: Ron Plyler Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: HO Trains
            This was true. I also collect American Flyer and Lionel and follow
            the pricing. I have noticed a trend in Lionel high value not holding
            it's value and not a good place to put your money if you are thinking
            it's a good investment.
            >
            > With $1200.00 Penn Line Crusaders and $800.00 Mantua 2-8-0's I think
            > that HO is definitely getting collectable.
            >
            > John Hagen
            >
            > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I, like many others have, always believed that HO products
            > would become the next wave as far as collecting trains. When I first
            > became interested in HO in 1958 I wanted to start getting everything
            > I could lay my hands on. Over the years I tried to collect as much
            > early vintage HO as could. While it was a lot harder to find them I
            > believed they would become popular someday just as I had seen Lionel
            > O and American Flyer S.
            > > I saw how the value on some Lionel O went through the roof. I
            > had an original (not the later copy) Lionel O Gauge Hiawatha 4-4-2
            > Streamliner passenger set. The set was bought for $39.95. I sold it
            > years ago, as I got deeper into HO, for $1500 to a person I thought
            > was nuts. Because of that sale I went deep into the oldest vintage HO
            > I could find. I bought items at very low prices (by todays standards)
            > and I know if I put my collection up for sale the value has more then
            > doubled from my original investment. So let people tell you HO is
            > useless but remember it took a couple of years before Lionel O &
            > American Flyer S became the collecting rage.
            > >
            > Jim H
            > >
            >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: Larry
            > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:07 AM
            > > Subject: [vintageHO] HO Trains
            > >
            > >
            > > I have read on many different forums that HO trains are not
            > collectible
            > > but O scale Lionel is. I think this myth has finally been settled.
            > > Recently HOseeker.net was selected by two website to be added to
            > their
            > > link pages. These were the Collectors Weekly and the Collectors-
            > Museum
            > > websites.
            > > In my personal opinion I think HO trains have finally reached the
            > > status of being collectible.
            > > Larry
            > >
            >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8286 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: HO Trains
            Larry:

            It's a matter of opinion of what is collectible in HO I think.

            Over the years, a LOT of HO that has (and is still) being produced
            is pure, utter junk. This, in spite of being super detailed and
            over priced.

            It's probably a matter of individual taste -and opinion. I have been
            in the hobby for over 50+ years now, and have a LOT of HO from
            many years. Very little is truly "collectible" as far as I am concerned,
            especially if it's made of plastic.

            Some is just old, but not necessarily valuable -- or collectible.

            Just an opinion.....

            Dave F



            **************
            A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=DecemailfooterNO62)
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8287 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: HO Trains
                       Dave,
                                    I don't totally disagree with some of your thoughts about a lot of junk out there. As you say it can be a matter of opinion as to what is collectable. Also being in HO 50 years what is VINTAGE & COLLECTABLE to me may be different to you. My collection spans 1936 to about 1977. Nothing newer. It is what I have decided (my opinion only) is vintage and collectable. However I have to disagree about your "plastic" assessment. I will buy every factory painted Rivarossi 4-4-2 HO Hiawatha "plastic"engine you have for a nominal fee (under $100). Bet you wouldn't sell that "plastic" engine. I could name a number of "plastic" items that are very collectable and vintage. Just look at  the price now for original plastic Rivarossi Big Boys and go back to the $29 to $39 prices stores like Woolworths sold them for. And forget inflation they have grown in value because they are COLLECTABLE. There are more I could name. ALL plastic is not junk.
                                                                                    Jim
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: WK2SHR@...
            Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 1:47 PM
            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HO Trains

            Larry:

            It's a matter of opinion of what is collectible in HO I think.

            Over the years, a LOT of HO that has (and is still) being produced
            is pure, utter junk. This, in spite of being super detailed and
            over priced.

            It's probably a matter of individual taste -and opinion. I have been
            in the hobby for over 50+ years now, and have a LOT of HO from
            many years. Very little is truly "collectible" as far as I am concerned,
            especially if it's made of plastic.

            Some is just old, but not necessarily valuable -- or collectible.

            Just an opinion.....

            Dave F



            ************ **
            A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100000075x121585 5013x1201028747/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072% 26hmpgID= 62%26bcd= DecemailfooterNO 62)

            Group: vintageHO Message: 8288 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: HO Trains
            Hi Don,
             
            Small world...I still have to find you that truck, right?
             
            This is an awesome group, if you haven't already figured that out..
             
            Sean 

            --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...> wrote:
            From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HO Trains
            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 10:03 AM

            Hello Sean, good to meet you here.  I just purchased two Athearn locos from you.  Thanks...
            Don in VA
            ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =

            Sean Naylor wrote:
            I don't know about anyone else, but I have been collecting HO for over 20 years..
             
            Didn't need some Magazine or Museum to tell me that they were collectable. .
             
            My comments are in no way meant to be insulting to you Larry, I just think it is funny...
             
            Some of those O scale Lionel guys think they are the only ones out there... 
             
            Sean

            --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Larry <seekingho@yahoo. com> wrote:
            From: Larry <seekingho@yahoo. com>
            Subject: [vintageHO] HO Trains
            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
            Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 9:07 AM

            I have read on many different forums that HO trains are not collectible
            but O scale Lionel is. I think this myth has finally been settled.
            Recently HOseeker.net was selected by two website to be added to their
            link pages. These were the Collectors Weekly and the Collectors-Museum
            websites.
            In my personal opinion I think HO trains have finally reached the
            status of being collectible.
            Larry
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8289 From: trainliker Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: HO Trains
            I'm afraid you won't be able to retire on them. I've seen some sell
            for as low as under $10.

            I have about 10 mint copies of each for 1948 and also 1949 ("2nd big
            year!") And also a couple mint posters for each year. Those would
            be worth a little more, I'm sure. (The Chicago Museum of Science
            and Industry had cleaned out some storage areas about 30 years ago,
            found the things, and sold them in their gift shop. I bought as
            many as I thought my wife and I could afford and still have enough
            money to make the drive back to California. Arrived home with less
            than a dollar's change in my pocket.)

            So I also have an interest in their value. I think I may have to
            wait another 50 years, maybe 100.

            Chuck Kinzer

            >
            > I have TWO souvenir programs from the 1948 Chicago Railroad Fair.
            Will I be
            > able to retire on them? :-)
            >
            > Don
            >
            > Don Dellmann
            > don.dellmann@...
            > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
            > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
            > Owner
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
            >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8290 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: HO Trains
            Hi guys,
             
            As some of you already know, I have been restoring a 1969 fastback Mustang, funded purely by my HO train sales. I have also enhanced my collection with some if the most desirable HO pieces at the same time. I am passionate about both. My collection is nothing like Jim's, but I do have some great pieces and plan to find more... and I have one of each of those Crusaders and Mantua Consolidations (with the correct tender).
             
            Because of the sales of many collectible HO pieces, I have been able to invest alot of money into my mustang this year..   That is not too shabby, if you ask me, coming from something that is "not very collectible".
            Based on this, I would have to completely disagree with any idea that there is even a remote chance that HO trains are not collectible. To each his own, yes, but the evidence is certainly there..  
             
            For some people even the new plastic japan made trains are collectible.. I would argue that the general consensus here would not think this way... Hence the Vintage in the title of the group..
             
            Sean
             
             

            --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Ron Plyler <ron_tallyho@...> wrote:
            From: Ron Plyler <ron_tallyho@...>
            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains
            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 12:34 PM

            This was true. I also collect American Flyer and Lionel and follow
            the pricing. I have noticed a trend in Lionel high value not holding
            it's value and not a good place to put your money if you are thinking
            it's a good investment.
            >
            > With $1200.00 Penn Line Crusaders and $800.00 Mantua 2-8-0's I think
            > that HO is definitely getting collectable.
            >
            > John Hagen
            >
            > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I, like many others have, always believed that HO products
            > would become the next wave as far as collecting trains. When I first
            > became interested in HO in 1958 I wanted to start getting everything
            > I could lay my hands on. Over the years I tried to collect as much
            > early vintage HO as could. While it was a lot harder to find them I
            > believed they would become popular someday just as I had seen Lionel
            > O and American Flyer S.
            > > I saw how the value on some Lionel O went through the roof. I
            > had an original (not the later copy) Lionel O Gauge Hiawatha 4-4-2
            > Streamliner passenger set. The set was bought for $39.95. I sold it
            > years ago, as I got deeper into HO, for $1500 to a person I thought
            > was nuts. Because of that sale I went deep into the oldest vintage HO
            > I could find. I bought items at very low prices (by todays standards)
            > and I know if I put my collection up for sale the value has more then
            > doubled from my original investment. So let people tell you HO is
            > useless but remember it took a couple of years before Lionel O &
            > American Flyer S became the collecting rage.
            > >
            > Jim H
            > >
            >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: Larry
            > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
            > > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:07 AM
            > > Subject: [vintageHO] HO Trains
            > >
            > >
            > > I have read on many different forums that HO trains are not
            > collectible
            > > but O scale Lionel is. I think this myth has finally been settled.
            > > Recently HOseeker.net was selected by two website to be added to
            > their
            > > link pages. These were the Collectors Weekly and the Collectors-
            > Museum
            > > websites.
            > > In my personal opinion I think HO trains have finally reached the
            > > status of being collectible.
            > > Larry
            > >
            >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8291 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: HO Trains
            Yes, you still owe me an Athearn truck sideframe.  I am patient.  Please re-read the last message I sent that you found in your spam box.  It gives a full description.
            I learned very quickly it is an awesome group.  A friend in "O" gauge steered me to it.
            Have a great day...
            Don in VA
            =========================================

            Sean Naylor wrote:

            Hi Don,
             
            Small world...I still have to find you that truck, right?
             
            This is an awesome group, if you haven't already figured that out..
             
            Sean 

            --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@verizon. net> wrote:
            From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@verizon. net>
            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HO Trains
            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
            Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 10:03 AM

            Hello Sean, good to meet you here.  I just purchased two Athearn locos from you.  Thanks...
            Don in VA
            ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =

            Sean Naylor wrote:
            I don't know about anyone else, but I have been collecting HO for over 20 years..
             
            Didn't need some Magazine or Museum to tell me that they were collectable. .
             
            My comments are in no way meant to be insulting to you Larry, I just think it is funny...
             
            Some of those O scale Lionel guys think they are the only ones out there... 
             
            Sean

            --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Larry <seekingho@yahoo. com> wrote:
            From: Larry <seekingho@yahoo. com>
            Subject: [vintageHO] HO Trains
            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
            Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 9:07 AM

            I have read on many different forums that HO trains are not collectible
            but O scale Lionel is. I think this myth has finally been settled.
            Recently HOseeker.net was selected by two website to be added to their
            link pages. These were the Collectors Weekly and the Collectors-Museum
            websites.
            In my personal opinion I think HO trains have finally reached the
            status of being collectible.
            Larry


            Group: vintageHO Message: 8292 From: Chris B Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
            Jim, Sean,
             
            below is the number and a pic of an ebay listing for 3 cast parts, listed as for a Varney Tender.
             
            It's  bid right now at $5, but since I'm old diesel only, I'll pass it to you experts on vintage cast steam!
             
            the two tender halves do look like they'd make a Vanderbilt style when combined.
             
            Is this what Jim just described?
             
             
             
            Chris B. 
            ------------------------------------------
             
            HEAVY BRASS CASTING FOR A HO TENDER from VARNEY Item number: 310116865947




            ________________________________
            From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:59:04 PM
            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...


             Also Varney did sell (I think A&S cast it for them) one brass and or bronze tender. It was a Vanderbilt style like their Aluminum Vanderbilt tender.

                   Like Sean stated I know of no other cast brass Mountain then the Knapp/Bowser. They used the same boiler (and tender) but Bowser had a different drive then the Knapp.
                                                                  Jim H
             
              
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Sean Naylor
            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com


            You stated this had a cast brass or bronze tender. The Consolidation that ended last night had a sheet brass or bronze tender. The only mountains I know know of that had cast brass tenders wer made by Bowser or Knapp.  The difference I know between the two is Bowser has the box spoke drivers and the Knapp has the thin spoked. (Thanks to Jim Heckard)

            Sound to me like you had one or the other and you traded an original tender with a later bowser tender..  however, Varney did make a Mountain and I do believe it came with a cast brass Boiler. I am not sure what other tenders Varney had. I do not beileve they had any cast brass.

            Sean

            Sean
            --- On Mon, 1/19/09, railwaymodeler <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com> wrote:


            The tender the Mountain had, I swapped it out for a Bowser tender, and
            gave the old cast brass or bronze (I think bronze) to my friend Bob,
            who runs the hobby shop.

            Strange, though- the Mountain has a pilot deck that says 'Varney' on
            it, though it doesn't look quite original to the locomotive.

            -Steve Neubaum
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8293 From: asleepy60 Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: What Railroad if Any?
            I recently acquired a 4 car set of Varney streamlined passenger cars.
            They have a black roof, a red band from the roof down below the windows
            and a yellow area below the windows to the car bottom.
            Can anyone tell me if this scheme represents a particular railroad or
            might it just be a paint scheme developed at the factory. There are no
            markings on the car which would indicate a specific railroad, a car
            name or even a number assigned to the car. Thank you.
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8294 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: Re: What Railroad if Any?
            Can you post a photo or photos?\

            Don

            Don Dellmann
            don.dellmann@...
            http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
            http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
            Owner
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "asleepy60" <asleepy60@...>
            To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 2:27 PM
            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What Railroad if Any?


            >I recently acquired a 4 car set of Varney streamlined passenger cars.
            > They have a black roof, a red band from the roof down below the windows
            > and a yellow area below the windows to the car bottom.
            > Can anyone tell me if this scheme represents a particular railroad or
            > might it just be a paint scheme developed at the factory. There are no
            > markings on the car which would indicate a specific railroad, a car
            > name or even a number assigned to the car. Thank you.
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            Group: vintageHO Message: 8295 From: Chris B Date: 1/21/2009
            Subject: two cast brass tenders on ebay?
            Attachments :
              And is this other one, also on ebay, with big photos, listed to start at 99 cents,
              is this one related by maker?
               
               
               
              ---------

              HO cast brass tender with trucks Item number: 310116512028

              "HO cast brass tender with trucks. I am not sure who manufactured this tender, but it is made of one piece cast brass. Tender has brass trucks with a brass coupler and a copper drawbar. "


              ________________________________
              From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:17:17 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...


              Jim, Sean,

              below is the number and a pic of an ebay listing for 3 cast parts, listed as for a Varney Tender.

              It's  bid right now at $5, but since I'm old diesel only, I'll pass it to you experts on vintage cast steam!

              the two tender halves do look like they'd make a Vanderbilt style when combined.

              Is this what Jim just described?



              Chris B. 
              ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---

              HEAVY BRASS CASTING FOR A HO TENDER from VARNEY Item number: 310116865947



              ____________ _________ _________ __
              From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:59:04 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...


               Also Varney did sell (I think A&S cast it for them) one brass and or bronze tender. It was a Vanderbilt style like their Aluminum Vanderbilt tender.

                     Like Sean stated I know of no other cast brass Mountain then the Knapp/Bowser. They used the same boiler (and tender) but Bowser had a different drive then the Knapp.
                                                                    Jim H
               
                
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Sean Naylor
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com


              You stated this had a cast brass or bronze tender. The Consolidation that ended last night had a sheet brass or bronze tender. The only mountains I know know of that had cast brass tenders wer made by Bowser or Knapp.  The difference I know between the two is Bowser has the box spoke drivers and the Knapp has the thin spoked. (Thanks to Jim Heckard)

              Sound to me like you had one or the other and you traded an original tender with a later bowser tender..  however, Varney did make a Mountain and I do believe it came with a cast brass Boiler. I am not sure what other tenders Varney had. I do not beileve they had any cast brass.

              Sean

              Sean
              --- On Mon, 1/19/09, railwaymodeler <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com> wrote:


              The tender the Mountain had, I swapped it out for a Bowser tender, and
              gave the old cast brass or bronze (I think bronze) to my friend Bob,
              who runs the hobby shop.

              Strange, though- the Mountain has a pilot deck that says 'Varney' on
              it, though it doesn't look quite original to the locomotive.

              -Steve Neubaum
              Group: vintageHO Message: 8296 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/21/2009
              Subject: Re: two cast brass tenders on ebay?
              That is either a Knapp or the later maker Bowser brass / bronze mountain type loco tender.
               
              I am not sure if there us a difference between the two. Jim Heckard knows best. If there is a difference, it will be with the trucks only. Otherwise the tender is from the same molds.
               
              Sean

              --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
              From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] two cast brass tenders on ebay?
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 4:55 PM

              And is this other one, also on ebay, with big photos, listed to start at 99 cents,
              is this one related by maker?
               
               
               
              ---------

              HO cast brass tender with trucks Item number: 310116512028

              "HO cast brass tender with trucks. I am not sure who manufactured this tender, but it is made of one piece cast brass. Tender has brass trucks with a brass coupler and a copper drawbar. "


              ____________ _________ _________ __
              From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:17:17 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...


              Jim, Sean,

              below is the number and a pic of an ebay listing for 3 cast parts, listed as for a Varney Tender.

              It's  bid right now at $5, but since I'm old diesel only, I'll pass it to you experts on vintage cast steam!

              the two tender halves do look like they'd make a Vanderbilt style when combined.

              Is this what Jim just described?



              Chris B. 
              ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---

              HEAVY BRASS CASTING FOR A HO TENDER from VARNEY Item number: 310116865947



              ____________ _________ _________ __
              From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:59:04 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...


               Also Varney did sell (I think A&S cast it for them) one brass and or bronze tender. It was a Vanderbilt style like their Aluminum Vanderbilt tender.

                     Like Sean stated I know of no other cast brass Mountain then the Knapp/Bowser. They used the same boiler (and tender) but Bowser had a different drive then the Knapp.
                                                                    Jim H
               
                
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Sean Naylor
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com


              You stated this had a cast brass or bronze tender. The Consolidation that ended last night had a sheet brass or bronze tender. The only mountains I know know of that had cast brass tenders wer made by Bowser or Knapp.  The difference I know between the two is Bowser has the box spoke drivers and the Knapp has the thin spoked. (Thanks to Jim Heckard)

              Sound to me like you had one or the other and you traded an original tender with a later bowser tender..  however, Varney did make a Mountain and I do believe it came with a cast brass Boiler. I am not sure what other tenders Varney had. I do not beileve they had any cast brass.

              Sean

              Sean
              --- On Mon, 1/19/09, railwaymodeler <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com> wrote:


              The tender the Mountain had, I swapped it out for a Bowser tender, and
              gave the old cast brass or bronze (I think bronze) to my friend Bob,
              who runs the hobby shop.

              Strange, though- the Mountain has a pilot deck that says 'Varney' on
              it, though it doesn't look quite original to the locomotive.

              -Steve Neubaum
              Group: vintageHO Message: 8297 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/21/2009
              Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
              Wow, That is a brass Varney Vandy tender...!! Does anyone mind if I bid?? Are you bidding Chriss? I have never seen one before.. That would go great begind one of my several brass varneys..
               
              Sean

              --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
              From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 4:17 PM

              Jim, Sean,
               
              below is the number and a pic of an ebay listing for 3 cast parts, listed as for a Varney Tender.
               
              It's  bid right now at $5, but since I'm old diesel only, I'll pass it to you experts on vintage cast steam!
               
              the two tender halves do look like they'd make a Vanderbilt style when combined.
               
              Is this what Jim just described?
               
               
               
              Chris B. 
              ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---
               
              HEAVY BRASS CASTING FOR A HO TENDER from VARNEY Item number: 310116865947




              ____________ _________ _________ __
              From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:59:04 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...


               Also Varney did sell (I think A&S cast it for them) one brass and or bronze tender. It was a Vanderbilt style like their Aluminum Vanderbilt tender.

                     Like Sean stated I know of no other cast brass Mountain then the Knapp/Bowser. They used the same boiler (and tender) but Bowser had a different drive then the Knapp.
                                                                    Jim H
               
                
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Sean Naylor
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com


              You stated this had a cast brass or bronze tender. The Consolidation that ended last night had a sheet brass or bronze tender. The only mountains I know know of that had cast brass tenders wer made by Bowser or Knapp.  The difference I know between the two is Bowser has the box spoke drivers and the Knapp has the thin spoked. (Thanks to Jim Heckard)

              Sound to me like you had one or the other and you traded an original tender with a later bowser tender..  however, Varney did make a Mountain and I do believe it came with a cast brass Boiler. I am not sure what other tenders Varney had. I do not beileve they had any cast brass.

              Sean

              Sean
              --- On Mon, 1/19/09, railwaymodeler <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com> wrote:


              The tender the Mountain had, I swapped it out for a Bowser tender, and
              gave the old cast brass or bronze (I think bronze) to my friend Bob,
              who runs the hobby shop.

              Strange, though- the Mountain has a pilot deck that says 'Varney' on
              it, though it doesn't look quite original to the locomotive.

              -Steve Neubaum
              Group: vintageHO Message: 8298 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
              Subject: Re: two cast brass tenders on ebay?
              Chris,
                       The tender in the picture you just sent is either Knapp (first) and later Bowser (Redlands CA after Bill Bowser bought out Knapp)  Same tender. No longer made after Bill Bowser sold out to Lew English/Bowser. It was a very heavy cast brass (some people say there were cast bronze too). Can't tell if they are the right trucks but look like them. One unique thing is the non working cast brass coupler. It is flat with no detail on the bottom and had a long shank that fit into a slot in the tender truck and then was attached to the tender body. I think that is called a talgo set up.
                                                                                         Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Chris B
              Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:55 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] two cast brass tenders on ebay?

              And is this other one, also on ebay, with big photos, listed to start at 99 cents,
              is this one related by maker?
               
               
               
              ---------

              HO cast brass tender with trucks Item number: 310116512028

              "HO cast brass tender with trucks. I am not sure who manufactured this tender, but it is made of one piece cast brass. Tender has brass trucks with a brass coupler and a copper drawbar. "


              ____________ _________ _________ __
              From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:17:17 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...


              Jim, Sean,

              below is the number and a pic of an ebay listing for 3 cast parts, listed as for a Varney Tender.

              It's  bid right now at $5, but since I'm old diesel only, I'll pass it to you experts on vintage cast steam!

              the two tender halves do look like they'd make a Vanderbilt style when combined.

              Is this what Jim just described?



              Chris B. 
              ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---

              HEAVY BRASS CASTING FOR A HO TENDER from VARNEY Item number: 310116865947



              ____________ _________ _________ __
              From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:59:04 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...


               Also Varney did sell (I think A&S cast it for them) one brass and or bronze tender. It was a Vanderbilt style like their Aluminum Vanderbilt tender.

                     Like Sean stated I know of no other cast brass Mountain then the Knapp/Bowser. They used the same boiler (and tender) but Bowser had a different drive then the Knapp.
                                                                    Jim H
               
                
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Sean Naylor
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com


              You stated this had a cast brass or bronze tender. The Consolidation that ended last night had a sheet brass or bronze tender. The only mountains I know know of that had cast brass tenders wer made by Bowser or Knapp.  The difference I know between the two is Bowser has the box spoke drivers and the Knapp has the thin spoked. (Thanks to Jim Heckard)

              Sound to me like you had one or the other and you traded an original tender with a later bowser tender..  however, Varney did make a Mountain and I do believe it came with a cast brass Boiler. I am not sure what other tenders Varney had. I do not beileve they had any cast brass.

              Sean

              Sean
              --- On Mon, 1/19/09, railwaymodeler <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com> wrote:


              The tender the Mountain had, I swapped it out for a Bowser tender, and
              gave the old cast brass or bronze (I think bronze) to my friend Bob,
              who runs the hobby shop.

              Strange, though- the Mountain has a pilot deck that says 'Varney' on
              it, though it doesn't look quite original to the locomotive.

              -Steve Neubaum
              Group: vintageHO Message: 8299 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
              Subject: Re: What Railroad if Any?
                  Although Varney had plastic sided with wood, all metal and all plastic streamlined passenger cars there are not any I can remember having the colors you state. I think Don's request to post pictures if possible would be best. Easier to decide. They may have been "custom" painted.
                                                                   Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: asleepy60
              Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:27 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What Railroad if Any?

              I recently acquired a 4 car set of Varney streamlined passenger cars.
              They have a black roof, a red band from the roof down below the windows
              and a yellow area below the windows to the car bottom.
              Can anyone tell me if this scheme represents a particular railroad or
              might it just be a paint scheme developed at the factory. There are no
              markings on the car which would indicate a specific railroad, a car
              name or even a number assigned to the car. Thank you.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 8300 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
              Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
                 Chris, Sean,
                          It looks like the original 3 piece brass tender sold by Varney. The part that you have to worry about. A company called A&S (Adams & Son) cast the 1st tenders for Varney. They also cast (Brass and Aluminum) for their own use and made for a company called GARCO (HJ Garrett) so it can be a little hard to ID. I'm pretty sure this was for Varney. No matter who made it or who it was made for a very desirable item.
                         Sean or anyone else. Go for it . I have the only one I need
                                                                                                   Jim H.
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:03 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...

              Wow, That is a brass Varney Vandy tender...!! Does anyone mind if I bid?? Are you bidding Chriss? I have never seen one before.. That would go great begind one of my several brass varneys..
               
              Sean

              --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> wrote:
              From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 4:17 PM

              Jim, Sean,
               
              below is the number and a pic of an ebay listing for 3 cast parts, listed as for a Varney Tender.
               
              It's  bid right now at $5, but since I'm old diesel only, I'll pass it to you experts on vintage cast steam!
               
              the two tender halves do look like they'd make a Vanderbilt style when combined.
               
              Is this what Jim just described?
               
               
               
              Chris B. 
              ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---
               
              HEAVY BRASS CASTING FOR A HO TENDER from VARNEY Item number: 310116865947




              ____________ _________ _________ __
              From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:59:04 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...


               Also Varney did sell (I think A&S cast it for them) one brass and or bronze tender. It was a Vanderbilt style like their Aluminum Vanderbilt tender.

                     Like Sean stated I know of no other cast brass Mountain then the Knapp/Bowser. They used the same boiler (and tender) but Bowser had a different drive then the Knapp.
                                                                    Jim H
               
                
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Sean Naylor
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com


              You stated this had a cast brass or bronze tender. The Consolidation that ended last night had a sheet brass or bronze tender. The only mountains I know know of that had cast brass tenders wer made by Bowser or Knapp.  The difference I know between the two is Bowser has the box spoke drivers and the Knapp has the thin spoked. (Thanks to Jim Heckard)

              Sound to me like you had one or the other and you traded an original tender with a later bowser tender..  however, Varney did make a Mountain and I do believe it came with a cast brass Boiler. I am not sure what other tenders Varney had. I do not beileve they had any cast brass.

              Sean

              Sean
              --- On Mon, 1/19/09, railwaymodeler <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com> wrote:


              The tender the Mountain had, I swapped it out for a Bowser tender, and
              gave the old cast brass or bronze (I think bronze) to my friend Bob,
              who runs the hobby shop.

              Strange, though- the Mountain has a pilot deck that says 'Varney' on
              it, though it doesn't look quite original to the locomotive.

              -Steve Neubaum
              Group: vintageHO Message: 8301 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/21/2009
              Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
              Hi Rick,
               
              I'll try to get permission to upload that video on my youtube account, I am registered at the GAUX site, however, some have been able to view it, while others click on what is obviously the wrong link and complain about it...........:o)
               
              Gary W

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


              From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:29:41 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Affects Everyone

                 Not working for me. Most of the page loads, and the video controls appear momentarily, the disappear and I just get a black box that does nothing where the video should be.

                                  Rick Jones


              --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> wrote:
              I don't know if non-members of GUARC can view the video or not, but if you can, its definately something to think about....... .....:o)

              ----- Forwarded Message ----
              From: RGoodell <rgoodell@gaurc. us>

              The GAUX Dispatcher has posted a new item:

              '"Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Affects Everyone'

              You may view the latest post at
              http://news. gaurc.us/ ?p=998._,__
              Group: vintageHO Message: 8302 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/21/2009
              Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
              Hi Don,
               
              Sorry for that, it has worked for some, and not for others, I will try to get permission to upload that video to my youtube account, and maybe it can be viewed by everyone that way, while its primarily an industrial video, it should be seen by everyone.......:o)
               
              Gary W

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


              From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:35:47 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Affects Everyone

              I had to wait for a while.  First the small black box loaded and ran...  Then the large black box loaded and ran.
              Don in VA

              Rick Jones wrote:

                 Not working for me. Most of the page loads, and the video controls appear momentarily, the disappear and I just get a black box that does nothing where the video should be.

                                  Rick Jones


              --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> wrote:
              I don't know if non-members of GUARC can view the video or not, but if you can, its definately something to think about....... .....:o)

              ----- Forwarded Message ----
              From: RGoodell <rgoodell@gaurc. us>

              The GAUX Dispatcher has posted a new item:

              '"Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Affects Everyone'

              You may view the latest post at
              http://news. gaurc.us/ ?p=998._,__
              Group: vintageHO Message: 8303 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/21/2009
              Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
              Hi Don in VA,
               
              So you were able to view the video? Good, I thought it was a bad link........:o)
               
              Gary W

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


              From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:53:28 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Affects Everyone

              This one only hints at reality.  I am a chaplain that makes the death notifications and works with the people to whom I give the notifications in my jurisdiction and I am a traffic safety officer that works accident scenes.  Thanks for sharing the video.

              Don in VA
              ============ ========= ========= ========= ====

              Gary Woodard wrote:

              Hi Ya'll,
               
              I don't know if non-members of GUARC can view the video or not, but if you can, its definately something to think about....... .....:o)
               
              Gary W

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


              ----- Forwarded Message ----
              From: RGoodell <rgoodell@gaurc. us>
              To: rgoodell@gaurc. us
              Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 11:36:08 PM
              Subject: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Affects Everyone

              The GAUX Dispatcher has posted a new item:

              '"Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Affects Everyone'

              You may view the latest post at
              http://news. gaurc.us/ ?p=998

              You received this e-mail because you asked to be notified when new updates are
              posted.

              Best regards,
              RGoodell
              rgoodell@gaurc. us
              Group: vintageHO Message: 8304 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
              Subject: picture worth 1000 words
              Attachments :
                         These pictures might help
                  
                         First picture is the Varney 3 piece Brass Vanderbilt tender with original trucks.
                         ( This like the Ebay item has the frame cast right on both halves. Later the frame became a separate piece but the tender shell became a single piece. the top stayed the same)
                 
                         Picture 2 & 3         Cast brass Knapp / later Bowser tender with original trucks. The picture of the bottom shows that non working cast brass coupler with the long shank and how it fits into the truck.
                        
                                                                            Jim H
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8305 From: Louis Greiff Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains Dear Group:

                    The issues of whether something is collectible and how much it’s worth are not the same.  When a Lionel collector (and I am one) boasts of his great collection, he means at least in part that it’s worth a lot of money.  Of course HO is collectible and gives great satisfaction to those of us who collect it.  It’s just that the price tags on it are smaller than on Lionel or Flyer and probably always will be, thank goodness.

                                                                                                                                                                Lou


                On 1/21/09 1:41 PM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:


                 


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@... <mailto:sprinthag%40yahoo.com> >
                To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> >
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:15 AM
                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> , "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> If you think $1200 is a bit heavy to pay for a model, just be lucky
                >> you're not into collecting railroadiana.  Someone this morning just
                >> paid $537 for a piece of printed cardboard!!!  There was a Reading
                >> Lines breakfast menu from the innaugural run of the stainless steel
                >> streamlined Crusader train accompanied with a souvenir reservation
                >> ticket for the 1st run (December 12, 1937).  These guys are serious
                >> about collecting stuff from their favorite railroad name trains.
                >> Ebay # 330301180131.  Ray W.
                >>
                > Thats why I don't collect railroadiana.
                >
                > John Hagen

                I have TWO souvenir programs from the 1948 Chicago Railroad Fair.  Will I be
                able to retire on them? :-)

                Don

                Don Dellmann
                don.dellmann@... <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net>
                http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                Owner
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                 
                    
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8306 From: Jim Waterman Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                Don,
                 
                I hope that you posted pictures of some of the specials that you made. I'd really like to see them.
                 
                Jim
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8307 From: Jim Waterman Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                Regarding the comment about high line Lionel not holding it's price -- I've seen the cycle repeated twice.
                 
                In the early 1970's, top Standard Gauge trains were going for astronomical prices. In the late 80's there was kinda of a crash, as reproductions from Williams and MTH started to enter the market.
                 
                The same thing has happened in the past 10 years with postwar Lionel, prices are about 40% less than their peak.
                 
                If you collected MPC vintage Lionel, you are even worse off - that stuff is about 70% down from its peak.
                 
                I think the same trend has followed each wave - there is an interested market, folks that really want the stuff, and there are speculators looking to run it up. As interest passes and more trains are available (like the repro and reissues), the originals drop like a rock. And with the newer stuff, its a sure way to make a small fortune, since it costs a large one to buy the stuff.
                 
                I've been in HO since the early 1960's and have seen the evolution of the trains. If it's collectable now and a decent investment, it is only because there are enough interested parties that know the stuff. What will happen in 20 years from now, when most of the model railroaders will have never heard of most of these companies, let alone the products they made?
                 
                For me, I buy the stuff because I like it (and I collect Standard, Lionel and HO). Finding this group has rekindled an interest in it, and I have a bunch of stuff stocked away that I really haven't done much with in the past 10 plus years.
                If it's worth something, that's great, but it wouldn't be my main reason for buying it. It's the history of the trains, these are the trains that helped spawn the fine scale models we have today. For their time (especially the prewar stuff), these trains were breakthroughs, relatively accurate scale models of specific prototypes that were never produced before.
                 
                And I think because there is a relatively small group of people collecting, that most of them can be found at reasonable prices - for now.
                 
                Just my thoughts
                 
                Jim
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8308 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                Whether or not something is collectible depends upon the attitude of the one doing the collecting.  Many very intelligent people thing all train collectors are crazy or childish.  Who cares how they think if the activity is lawful and brings some contentment.  Some HO items rival the unbelievable costs of some O items and some O items are cheaper than some other HO items.  Categories, desirability and manufacturer are the determining factors in most cases.  Since I am involved in HO, S, O27 and O, I am a diverse collector but I specialize to keep down costs and do repairs to be able to afford the hobby at all.  Some few of my items are worth a lot of money while most of them individually are not so expensive.
                Happy railroading...
                Don in VA
                =======================================

                Louis Greiff wrote:

                Dear Group:

                    The issues of whether something is collectible and how much it’s worth are not the same.  When a Lionel collector (and I am one) boasts of his great collection, he means at least in part that it’s worth a lot of money.  Of course HO is collectible and gives great satisfaction to those of us who collect it.  It’s just that the price tags on it are smaller than on Lionel or Flyer and probably always will be, thank goodness.

                                                                                                                                                                Lou


                On 1/21/09 1:41 PM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net> wrote:


                 


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com <mailto:sprinthag% 40yahoo.com> >
                To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> >
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:15 AM
                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> , "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> If you think $1200 is a bit heavy to pay for a model, just be lucky
                >> you're not into collecting railroadiana.  Someone this morning just
                >> paid $537 for a piece of printed cardboard!!!  There was a Reading
                >> Lines breakfast menu from the innaugural run of the stainless steel
                >> streamlined Crusader train accompanied with a souvenir reservation
                >> ticket for the 1st run (December 12, 1937).  These guys are serious
                >> about collecting stuff from their favorite railroad name trains.
                >> Ebay # 330301180131.  Ray W.
                >>
                > Thats why I don't collect railroadiana.
                >
                > John Hagen

                I have TWO souvenir programs from the 1948 Chicago Railroad Fair.  Will I be
                able to retire on them? :-)

                Don

                Don Dellmann
                don.dellmann@ prodigy.net <mailto:don.dellmann %40prodigy. net>
                http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                Owner
                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                 
                    
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8309 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                I just obtained a digital camera.  When I learn to use it well I will post some pics.

                Don in VA
                ====================================================

                Jim Waterman wrote:

                Don,
                 
                I hope that you posted pictures of some of the specials that you made. I'd really like to see them.
                 
                Jim
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8310 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: What Railroad if Any?
                Are they factory painted? The Varney streamliners were lithographed steel
                with things like door outlines part of the print job. :If they do not
                appear to be baked-enamel with the door outlines, they are a repaint. (We
                ARE talking about the 60-ft shorties with the one-piece steel wrapper and
                plastic ends locked in by the vents?? gj


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "asleepy60" <asleepy60@...>
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8311 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                Louis,
                                    I think the words collectable, vintage and value (especially resale value) are all different depending where each collector is coming from. I only collect (to keep, I do not resell). I collect vintage items (based on my own time frame from the beginning of HO 1936 to 1977). Value to me is having one of each product made by a certain producer whether it is a large or small amount because having one of each item made, a set you could say, has value.
                        A person who,buys, sells and trades is at a different place in the meanings. Semantics ?  There is not a "collector" that does not want to find items as low as possible and sell them as high as possible. As I have said many times Lionel O and American Flyer S have pretty well set and defined values based on condition. HO has not fully reached that yet because there is still a lot unknown. That is shown in how prices vary depending on how bad a person wants a certain piece. 
                       I don't know how high the value of certain Lionel items can go but I want to relay a story. Years ago, maybe 4 or 5, a buyer on Ebay bought ONE American Flyer HO tanker (forget the rr name but it was green) with broken steps for $1,300, no decimal.
                He wanted that particular piece. Years ago a seller out of Hong Kong sold an original Rivarossi factory painted 4-4-2 Hiawatha (HO not O and NOT brass) with the original passenger cars for $5,000. Again more because someone wanted the item and because there is not enough sales to "put a price on it"
                                                                                                           Jim H
                          
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:22 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                Dear Group:

                    The issues of whether something is collectible and how much it’s worth are not the same.  When a Lionel collector (and I am one) boasts of his great collection, he means at least in part that it’s worth a lot of money.  Of course HO is collectible and gives great satisfaction to those of us who collect it.  It’s just that the price tags on it are smaller than on Lionel or Flyer and probably always will be, thank goodness.

                                                                                                                                                                Lou


                On 1/21/09 1:41 PM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net> wrote:


                 


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com <mailto:sprinthag% 40yahoo.com> >
                To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> >
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:15 AM
                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> , "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> If you think $1200 is a bit heavy to pay for a model, just be lucky
                >> you're not into collecting railroadiana.  Someone this morning just
                >> paid $537 for a piece of printed cardboard!!!  There was a Reading
                >> Lines breakfast menu from the innaugural run of the stainless steel
                >> streamlined Crusader train accompanied with a souvenir reservation
                >> ticket for the 1st run (December 12, 1937).  These guys are serious
                >> about collecting stuff from their favorite railroad name trains.
                >> Ebay # 330301180131.  Ray W.
                >>
                > Thats why I don't collect railroadiana.
                >
                > John Hagen

                I have TWO souvenir programs from the 1948 Chicago Railroad Fair.  Will I be
                able to retire on them? :-)

                Don

                Don Dellmann
                don.dellmann@ prodigy.net <mailto:don.dellmann %40prodigy. net>
                http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                Owner
                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                 
                    

                Group: vintageHO Message: 8312 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
                   It may also be that it's one of those poorly designed non-standard web sites that only works with Internet Destroyer. I use Firefox 3.0.5.

                --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:

                Hi Rick,
                 
                I'll try to get permission to upload that video on my youtube account, I am registered at the GAUX site, however, some have been able to view it, while others click on what is obviously the wrong link and complain about it...........:o)
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8313 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Ho value
                 Jim W,
                          I deleted your email before I responded. I totally agree with all but one of your thoughts. You mention vintage HO might die out as new people get involved with trains. I happen to think a little different. It is because of groups in the past and yahoos sites now like the vintageHO site that I believe will keep vintage HO alive. We are all historians at the moment documenting the history of HO from the beginning and listing what products were made. It is because of this I feel vintage HO will grow not diminish. Humans seem to love trains and new people will have the HO knowledge at their disposal, something we are trying to preserve. My thoughts.
                                                                                                            Jim H
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8314 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: Ho value
                Hi Jim,
                 
                I love the vintage stuff for a couple of reasons, as a former O scaler, it tends to retain value, however, like anything else, its only worth what someone will pay for the privlage of owning any said item, I have friends here who swear by their P2k and BLI stuff, it looks real pretty, but give me an old Mantua or Penn Line any day of week, when the Chinese throw a ways are in the model railroad bone yard, my old Bowsers will still be turning their wheels pulling my old Athearn, Ulrich, MDC,Ambroid and other rolling stock!!!!!!!!!!:o)
                 
                Gary W
                 

                 
                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:05:15 PM
                Subject: [vintageHO] Ho value

                 Jim W,
                          I deleted your email before I responded. I totally agree with all but one of your thoughts. You mention vintage HO might die out as new people get involved with trains. I happen to think a little different. It is because of groups in the past and yahoos sites now like the vintageHO site that I believe will keep vintage HO alive. We are all historians at the moment documenting the history of HO from the beginning and listing what products were made. It is because of this I feel vintage HO will grow not diminish. Humans seem to love trains and new people will have the HO knowledge at their disposal, something we are trying to preserve. My thoughts.
                                                                                                            Jim H
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8315 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
                Hi Rick,
                 
                While I was using XP on my old comp, I used Firefox, and still continue to do so for some things for downloading purposes, however, IE does work well in Vista........:o)
                 
                Gary W

                 
                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:01:39 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Affects Everyone

                   It may also be that it's one of those poorly designed non-standard web sites that only works with Internet Destroyer. I use Firefox 3.0.5.

                --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> wrote:

                Hi Rick,
                 
                I'll try to get permission to upload that video on my youtube account, I am registered at the GAUX site, however, some have been able to view it, while others click on what is obviously the wrong link and complain about it.......... .:o)
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8316 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Af
                It worked fine for me (with Firefox 3.0.5)

                Willard

                At 08:01 PM 1/21/2009, you wrote:
                   It may also be that it's one of those poorly designed non-standard web sites that only works with Internet Destroyer. I use Firefox 3.0.5.

                --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:

                Hi Rick,
                 
                I'll try to get permission to upload that video on my youtube account, I am registered at the GAUX site, however, some have been able to view it, while others click on what is obviously the wrong link and complain about it...........:o)
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8317 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Louis Greiff <louie113@...> wrote:

                    The issues of whether something is collectible and how much it’s worth are not the same.  When a Lionel collector (and I am one) boasts of his great collection, he means at least in part that it’s worth a lot of money.  Of course HO is collectible and gives great satisfaction to those of us who collect it.  It’s just that the price tags on it are smaller than on Lionel or Flyer and probably always will be, thank goodness.

                ---------

                FWIW, buying old kits for the purpose of collecting them holds no interest for me. I care little for getting a full set of boxcars from manufacturer X or Y. Even the Globe, Varney, Penn Line or other early plastic kits don't interest me.
                What does attract me are the old wooden or metal craftsman kits, like Central Valley, Ulrich, Ambroid, Silver Streak, FSM etc. The reason they attract me is that there's more satisfaction in completing one of them compared to the plastic shake-the-box kits. Getting a full set of any of these is not any sort of goal of mine.
                To me it's unfortunate that there is a collectible value to these compared to their original prices. Central Valley kits, for example, seem to be selling for $30-40, many times what they cost four decades ago. Luckily I have been able to find some decent deals on occasion at club-sponsored swap meets.

                Rick Jones
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8318 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                Hi Jim,
                 
                One thing is for certain, we as model railroaders are all collectors, whether we collect stuff we want for running, or we collect as an investment, (the fools), years ago when I was modeling in N scale, I would watch these jokers buying up all that neet Micro Trains rolling stock, and make no mistake, MT makes nice stuff, but if you want to drive a MT collector nuts, weather the piece, especially a rare piece, that just kills em, I got tired of hearing how terrible a person I am for weathering entire trains of MT rolling stock when it could have retained its value, the problem is, I buy my trains to run them, not to look at them sitting in a little plastic box, kind of useless if thats all one wants trains for...........:o)
                 
                Gary W

                 
                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:52:33 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                Louis,
                                    I think the words collectable, vintage and value (especially resale value) are all different depending where each collector is coming from. I only collect (to keep, I do not resell). I collect vintage items (based on my own time frame from the beginning of HO 1936 to 1977). Value to me is having one of each product made by a certain producer whether it is a large or small amount because having one of each item made, a set you could say, has value.
                        A person who,buys, sells and trades is at a different place in the meanings. Semantics ?  There is not a "collector" that does not want to find items as low as possible and sell them as high as possible. As I have said many times Lionel O and American Flyer S have pretty well set and defined values based on condition. HO has not fully reached that yet because there is still a lot unknown. That is shown in how prices vary depending on how bad a person wants a certain piece. 
                       I don't know how high the value of certain Lionel items can go but I want to relay a story. Years ago, maybe 4 or 5, a buyer on Ebay bought ONE American Flyer HO tanker (forget the rr name but it was green) with broken steps for $1,300, no decimal.
                He wanted that particular piece. Years ago a seller out of Hong Kong sold an original Rivarossi factory painted 4-4-2 Hiawatha (HO not O and NOT brass) with the original passenger cars for $5,000. Again more because someone wanted the item and because there is not enough sales to "put a price on it"
                                                                                                           Jim H
                          
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:22 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                Dear Group:

                    The issues of whether something is collectible and how much it’s worth are not the same.  When a Lionel collector (and I am one) boasts of his great collection, he means at least in part that it’s worth a lot of money.  Of course HO is collectible and gives great satisfaction to those of us who collect it.  It’s just that the price tags on it are smaller than on Lionel or Flyer and probably always will be, thank goodness.

                                                                                                                                                                Lou


                On 1/21/09 1:41 PM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net> wrote:


                 


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com <mailto:sprinthag% 40yahoo.com> >
                To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> >
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:15 AM
                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> , "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> If you think $1200 is a bit heavy to pay for a model, just be lucky
                >> you're not into collecting railroadiana.  Someone this morning just
                >> paid $537 for a piece of printed cardboard!!!  There was a Reading
                >> Lines breakfast menu from the innaugural run of the stainless steel
                >> streamlined Crusader train accompanied with a souvenir reservation
                >> ticket for the 1st run (December 12, 1937).  These guys are serious
                >> about collecting stuff from their favorite railroad name trains.
                >> Ebay # 330301180131.  Ray W.
                >>
                > Thats why I don't collect railroadiana.
                >
                > John Hagen

                I have TWO souvenir programs from the 1948 Chicago Railroad Fair.  Will I be
                able to retire on them? :-)

                Don

                Don Dellmann
                don.dellmann@ prodigy.net <mailto:don.dellmann %40prodigy. net>
                http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                Owner
                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                 
                    


                Group: vintageHO Message: 8319 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: Fw: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidit
                I use the latest Firefox...  This time both boxes played at the same time and started immediately.
                Don in VA
                ============================================================
                Donald R. Staton wrote:

                I had to wait for a while.  First the small black box loaded and ran...  Then the large black box loaded and ran.
                Don in VA

                Rick Jones wrote:

                   Not working for me. Most of the page loads, and the video controls appear momentarily, the disappear and I just get a black box that does nothing where the video should be.

                                    Rick Jones


                --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> wrote:
                I don't know if non-members of GUARC can view the video or not, but if you can, its definately something to think about....... .....:o)

                ----- Forwarded Message ----
                From: RGoodell <rgoodell@gaurc. us>

                The GAUX Dispatcher has posted a new item:

                '"Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Affects Everyone'

                You may view the latest post at
                http://news. gaurc.us/ ?p=998._,__

                Group: vintageHO Message: 8320 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Jim Waterman <Watermaj@...> wrote:

                Regarding the comment about high line Lionel not
                holding it's price -- I've seen the cycle repeated twice.
                 
                In the early 1970's, top Standard Gauge trains were
                going for astronomical prices. In the late 80's there was kinda of a crash, as
                reproductions from Williams and MTH started to enter the market.
                 
                The same thing has happened in the past 10 years
                with postwar Lionel, prices are about 40% less than their peak.
                 
                If you collected MPC vintage Lionel, you are even
                worse off - that stuff is about 70% down from its peak.
                 
                I think the same trend has followed each wave -
                there is an interested market, folks that really want the stuff, and there are
                speculators looking to run it up. As interest passes and more trains are
                available (like the repro and reissues), the originals drop like a rock.
                And with the newer stuff, its a sure way to make a small fortune, since it costs
                a large one to buy the stuff.

                ------------

                And the same seems to also be occurring with brass steam. With the influx of high quality die cast and plastic steam engines from Bachmann et al over the past 10 years, prices of used brass steam appear to have leveled off and perhaps dropped some judging by dealer ads in the magazines.

                Rick Jones
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8321 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity A
                --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Willard Seehorn <wseehorn@...> wrote:

                It worked fine for me (with Firefox 3.0.5)

                -----------

                Hmmm, maybe I just didn't wait long enough, but it seemed to be hung up. I gave it about a minute to start playing.

                Rick Jones
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8322 From: Chris B Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
                Sean, go for it, please, that's why I posted it.
                No steam on the Washington & Old Dominion after 1922, and I model 1939 to 1959, so I'll pass, as cool as it looks!
                What's #1 on my want list is an early phase HO 44 tonner, with the side vents and a flat front hood.

                W&OD had 3, and so far in 4 years I've picked up 2,
                both NJ INTL Custom Brass junkers, and I need one more!
                They are definitely hard to find, they only brought in 300.
                I can't afford the W&R model with the Ajin drive train, rare as they are. 

                The NJ INTL 44 Tonners have sick flawed drive trains that never run, that's why they were a bust in sales I think
                and why I can afford them, and have fun repowering them some cutdown 6 wheel hobbytown trucks cut down to 4 wheels and given old MEW sideframes!
                ----------

                I do have 1 more and different question though, for the group.
                Usually I think Jim H has the right idea, if it's not an engine, what's the point?  <g>
                but last fall I picked up a vintage cast 1 piece HO AF RPO body,
                and I've never seen a photo ro a picture or a reference to anything like it.
                I bought it for conversion into a different oddball W&OD railcar,
                but as others have asked...
                would I find out after I chopped it that it's somebody's #1 on a want list...

                Any HO AF 1 peice cast metal RPO infor anyone?

                Thanks, this group is the best.
                Chris B

                From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:03:38 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...

                Wow, That is a brass Varney Vandy tender...!! Does anyone mind if I bid?? Are you bidding Chriss? I have never seen one before.. That would go great begind one of my several brass varneys..
                 
                Sean

                --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 4:17 PM

                Jim, Sean,
                 
                below is the number and a pic of an ebay listing for 3 cast parts, listed as for a Varney Tender.
                 
                It's  bid right now at $5, but since I'm old diesel only, I'll pass it to you experts on vintage cast steam!
                 
                the two tender halves do look like they'd make a Vanderbilt style when combined.
                 
                Is this what Jim just described?
                 
                 
                 
                Chris B. 
                ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---
                 
                HEAVY BRASS CASTING FOR A HO TENDER from VARNEY Item number: 310116865947




                ____________ _________ _________ __
                From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:59:04 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...


                 Also Varney did sell (I think A&S cast it for them) one brass and or bronze tender. It was a Vanderbilt style like their Aluminum Vanderbilt tender.

                       Like Sean stated I know of no other cast brass Mountain then the Knapp/Bowser. They used the same boiler (and tender) but Bowser had a different drive then the Knapp.
                                                                      Jim H
                 
                  
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Sean Naylor
                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com


                You stated this had a cast brass or bronze tender. The Consolidation that ended last night had a sheet brass or bronze tender. The only mountains I know know of that had cast brass tenders wer made by Bowser or Knapp.  The difference I know between the two is Bowser has the box spoke drivers and the Knapp has the thin spoked. (Thanks to Jim Heckard)

                Sound to me like you had one or the other and you traded an original tender with a later bowser tender..  however, Varney did make a Mountain and I do believe it came with a cast brass Boiler. I am not sure what other tenders Varney had. I do not beileve they had any cast brass.

                Sean

                Sean
                --- On Mon, 1/19/09, railwaymodeler <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com> wrote:


                The tender the Mountain had, I swapped it out for a Bowser tender, and
                gave the old cast brass or bronze (I think bronze) to my friend Bob,
                who runs the hobby shop.

                Strange, though- the Mountain has a pilot deck that says 'Varney' on
                it, though it doesn't look quite original to the locomotive.

                -Steve Neubaum
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8323 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity A
                Hi Rick,
                 
                You need to physically click on the play button..............:o)
                 
                Gary W

                 
                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:31:23 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Affects Everyone

                --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Willard Seehorn <wseehorn@earthlink. net> wrote:

                It worked fine for me (with Firefox 3.0.5)

                -----------

                Hmmm, maybe I just didn't wait long enough, but it seemed to be hung up. I gave it about a minute to start playing.

                Rick Jones
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8324 From: asleepy60 Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: What Railroad if Any?
                Will try to post picture in photo section.
                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                >
                > Although Varney had plastic sided with wood, all metal and all
                plastic streamlined passenger cars there are not any I can remember
                having the colors you state. I think Don's request to post pictures
                if possible would be best. Easier to decide. They may have
                been "custom" painted.
                > Jim H
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: asleepy60
                > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:27 PM
                > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What Railroad if Any?
                >
                >
                > I recently acquired a 4 car set of Varney streamlined passenger
                cars.
                > They have a black roof, a red band from the roof down below the
                windows
                > and a yellow area below the windows to the car bottom.
                > Can anyone tell me if this scheme represents a particular
                railroad or
                > might it just be a paint scheme developed at the factory. There
                are no
                > markings on the car which would indicate a specific railroad, a
                car
                > name or even a number assigned to the car. Thank you.
                >
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8325 From: railwaymodeler Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                I grew up with Lionel trains (Mind, I was born in 1984, so this was
                not too long ago). I started out with my dad's early 1950s Lionel, a
                couple steam locomotives and a #51 industrial switcher. By the early
                1990s, when I was in grade school, my dad often got funny looks when
                he told people that he was letting his kid run his old Lionel.

                There's a little more to it: I also restored his ice depot, oil
                derrick, crossing gates, and water tower before I was even 10 years
                old. I'm Autistic, and very mechanically minded. I remember going to
                the swap meets, with a written list of the parts that I needed for
                restorations. Imagine a parts dealer at a busy swap meet. Imagine him
                shoo-ing away a kid thinking he didn't know anything about fixing
                trains. Now, imagine the look on that dealer's face when he realizes
                the kid knows maybe more about this stuff than the dealer does.

                Around this age, when Lionel collecting was at its height, I got into
                inventorying my collection and roster. I read the price guides, and
                even as a kid, was pretty good at bargaining at train shows. I think
                the height of this, was at an LCCA meet, when I bargained $150 off a
                Burlington aluminum passenger set. I think I was 13 at the time.

                I'm still very proud of the way I grew up.

                Now that the market of O gauge has cooled signifigantly, I have begun
                building a Lionel railroad in my dad's basement again. My apartment is
                already home to a vintage HO scale layout that occupies the entire
                living room, and has 150 square feet of tabletop.

                With the market in O gauge cooled, I am doing things I would not have
                as a kid- I pulled off the plastic Symington-Wayne trucks off the all
                plastic 1970s cars I had a lot of, especially ones with plastic
                kingpins. Been replacing them with metal trucks held with screws for
                better on-the-rail stability. Plus, I've been buying vintage O scale
                cars, Athearn, Lobaugh, Scale-Craft, and Westbrook in particular, and
                fitting them for 3 rail operation. My parents think I went crazy when
                I did all this, but really, my Lionel railroad is running the way I
                like it- no light cars derailing, and I got it looking like something
                out of an old issue of Model Builder.

                My reflections are, that from a collector's standpoint, much of my
                equipment that has been modified, is worth less than it would be as
                stock. But, an operator might pay more for the fixes and enhancements.

                HO scale, I think, will be interesting for those who collect it the
                same way as they would Lionel. early HO seldom came ready to run, so
                the 'variations' that Lionel collectors clamor for, are endless! I
                could swap a brakewheel, and voila! A new variation!

                With my personal railroads, be they HO or O scale, I try to keep them
                reasonably authentic. But I have a philosophy that if it theoretically
                could have been swapped (Trucks, couplers, etc...) when it was in it's
                original operating days, then it is still authentic. Lionel collectors
                seem a little different about that, to the effect of, "WOW! You
                swapped the trucks and put a metal brakewheel on! Is your temperature
                OK? Do you need an ambulance?" I got Varney trucks under Strombecker
                cars, running with Mantua loop couplers. Completely authentic? No!
                Believeably authenitic? Yes.

                Sorry for this long post, I have had a lot of thoughts on O gauge, and
                HO collecting, being on both sides of the house myself.

                -Steve Neubaum


                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Jim Waterman <Watermaj@...> wrote:
                >
                > Regarding the comment about high line Lionel not
                > holding it's price -- I've seen the cycle repeated twice.
                >  
                > In the early 1970's, top Standard Gauge trains were
                > going for astronomical prices. In the late 80's there was kinda of a
                crash, as
                > reproductions from Williams and MTH started to enter the market.
                >  
                > The same thing has happened in the past 10 years
                > with postwar Lionel, prices are about 40% less than their peak.
                >  
                > If you collected MPC vintage Lionel, you are even
                > worse off - that stuff is about 70% down from its peak.
                >  
                > I think the same trend has followed each wave -
                > there is an interested market, folks that really want the stuff, and
                there are
                > speculators looking to run it up. As interest passes and more trains
                are
                > available (like the repro and reissues), the originals drop like a
                rock.
                > And with the newer stuff, its a sure way to make a small fortune,
                since it costs
                > a large one to buy the stuff.
                >
                > ------------
                >
                > And the same seems to also be occurring with brass steam. With
                the influx of high quality die cast and plastic steam engines from
                Bachmann et al over the past 10 years, prices of used brass steam
                appear to have leveled off and perhaps dropped some judging by dealer
                ads in the magazines.
                >
                > Rick Jones
                >
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8326 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                I sometimes wonder if I am a collector or an accumulator
                 
                8^)    gj
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:22 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                Hi Jim,
                 
                One thing is for certain, we as model railroaders are all collectors, whether we collect stuff we want for running, or we collect as an
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8327 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
                You spell it wrong--it is "Cussed 'em Trash"-- for  their sheer lack of quality control.   gj
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Chris B
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:40 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...

                Sean, go for it, please, that's why I posted it.
                No steam on the Washington & Old Dominion after 1922, and I model 1939 to 1959, so I'll pass, as cool as it looks!
                What's #1 on my want list is an early phase HO 44 tonner, with the side vents and a flat front hood.

                W&OD had 3, and so far in 4 years I've picked up 2,
                both NJ INTL Custom Brass junkers, and I need one more!
                They are definitely hard to find, they only brought in 300.
                I can't afford the W&R model with the Ajin drive train, rare as they are. 

                The NJ INTL 44 Tonners have sick flawed drive trains that never run, that's why they were a bust in sales I think
                and why I can afford them, and have fun repowering them some cutdown 6 wheel hobbytown trucks cut down to 4 wheels and given old MEW sideframes!
                ----------

                I do have 1 more and different question though, for the group.
                Usually I think Jim H has the right idea, if it's not an engine, what's the point?  <g>
                but last fall I picked up a vintage cast 1 piece HO AF RPO body,
                and I've never seen a photo ro a picture or a reference to anything like it.
                I bought it for conversion into a different oddball W&OD railcar,
                but as others have asked...
                would I find out after I chopped it that it's somebody's #1 on a want list...

                Any HO AF 1 peice cast metal RPO infor anyone?

                Thanks, this group is the best.
                Chris B

                From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:03:38 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...

                Wow, That is a brass Varney Vandy tender...!! Does anyone mind if I bid?? Are you bidding Chriss? I have never seen one before.. That would go great begind one of my several brass varneys..
                 
                Sean

                --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...
                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 4:17 PM

                Jim, Sean,
                 
                below is the number and a pic of an ebay listing for 3 cast parts, listed as for a Varney Tender.
                 
                It's  bid right now at $5, but since I'm old diesel only, I'll pass it to you experts on vintage cast steam!
                 
                the two tender halves do look like they'd make a Vanderbilt style when combined.
                 
                Is this what Jim just described?
                 
                 
                 
                Chris B. 
                ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---
                 
                HEAVY BRASS CASTING FOR A HO TENDER from VARNEY Item number: 310116865947




                ____________ _________ _________ __
                From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:59:04 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...


                 Also Varney did sell (I think A&S cast it for them) one brass and or bronze tender. It was a Vanderbilt style like their Aluminum Vanderbilt tender.

                       Like Sean stated I know of no other cast brass Mountain then the Knapp/Bowser. They used the same boiler (and tender) but Bowser had a different drive then the Knapp.
                                                                      Jim H
                 
                  
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Sean Naylor
                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com


                You stated this had a cast brass or bronze tender. The Consolidation that ended last night had a sheet brass or bronze tender. The only mountains I know know of that had cast brass tenders wer made by Bowser or Knapp.  The difference I know between the two is Bowser has the box spoke drivers and the Knapp has the thin spoked. (Thanks to Jim Heckard)

                Sound to me like you had one or the other and you traded an original tender with a later bowser tender..  however, Varney did make a Mountain and I do believe it came with a cast brass Boiler. I am not sure what other tenders Varney had. I do not beileve they had any cast brass.

                Sean

                Sean
                --- On Mon, 1/19/09, railwaymodeler <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com> wrote:


                The tender the Mountain had, I swapped it out for a Bowser tender, and
                gave the old cast brass or bronze (I think bronze) to my friend Bob,
                who runs the hobby shop.

                Strange, though- the Mountain has a pilot deck that says 'Varney' on
                it, though it doesn't look quite original to the locomotive.

                -Steve Neubaum






                No virus found in this incoming message.
                Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.10/1906 - Release Date: 1/21/2009 7:07 AM
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8328 From: Garry Spear Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: two cast brass tenders on ebay?
                Item 310116512028 looks to be by Knapp.  The underframe is somewhat unique.  The tooling was sold to Red Ball, so it might be a later production

                Garry Spear

                On 1/21/09, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:

                And is this other one, also on ebay, with big photos, listed to start at 99 cents,
                is this one related by maker?
                 
                 
                 
                ---------

                HO cast brass tender with trucks Item number: 310116512028

                "HO cast brass tender with trucks. I am not sure who manufactured this tender, but it is made of one piece cast brass. Tender has brass trucks with a brass coupler and a copper drawbar. "


                ________________________________
                From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:17:17 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...


                Jim, Sean,

                below is the number and a pic of an ebay listing for 3 cast parts, listed as for a Varney Tender.

                It's  bid right now at $5, but since I'm old diesel only, I'll pass it to you experts on vintage cast steam!

                the two tender halves do look like they'd make a Vanderbilt style when combined.

                Is this what Jim just described?



                Chris B. 
                ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---

                HEAVY BRASS CASTING FOR A HO TENDER from VARNEY Item number: 310116865947



                ____________ _________ _________ __
                From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:59:04 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...


                 Also Varney did sell (I think A&S cast it for them) one brass and or bronze tender. It was a Vanderbilt style like their Aluminum Vanderbilt tender.

                       Like Sean stated I know of no other cast brass Mountain then the Knapp/Bowser. They used the same boiler (and tender) but Bowser had a different drive then the Knapp.
                                                                      Jim H
                 
                  
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Sean Naylor
                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com


                You stated this had a cast brass or bronze tender. The Consolidation that ended last night had a sheet brass or bronze tender. The only mountains I know know of that had cast brass tenders wer made by Bowser or Knapp.  The difference I know between the two is Bowser has the box spoke drivers and the Knapp has the thin spoked. (Thanks to Jim Heckard)

                Sound to me like you had one or the other and you traded an original tender with a later bowser tender..  however, Varney did make a Mountain and I do believe it came with a cast brass Boiler. I am not sure what other tenders Varney had. I do not beileve they had any cast brass.

                Sean

                Sean
                --- On Mon, 1/19/09, railwaymodeler <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com> wrote:


                The tender the Mountain had, I swapped it out for a Bowser tender, and
                gave the old cast brass or bronze (I think bronze) to my friend Bob,
                who runs the hobby shop.

                Strange, though- the Mountain has a pilot deck that says 'Varney' on
                it, though it doesn't look quite original to the locomotive.

                -Steve Neubaum
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8329 From: Louis Greiff Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains Hi Rick,

                    Your comments illustrate the point I made in my first email.  Your interest in vintage wooden freight car kits is not driven by their monetary value but by the pleasure you derive from collecting and building them.  Their prices are probably inflated, like so many other prices seem to be, but $30.00-$40.00 is not a great deal of money today despite being ten times higher than what we paid for those kits when they were in production.  The Central Valley kits are probably more expensive because there are fewer of them available.  I base this comment on my eBay searches.  I’ll see a dozen or more Silver Streak listings on eBay before I see even one Central Valley listing.
                    Best wishes.

                                                                                                                                                                    Lou


                On 1/21/09 8:20 PM, "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...> wrote:


                 

                --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Louis Greiff <louie113@... <mailto:louie113%40frontiernet.net> > wrote:

                    The issues of whether something is collectible and how much it’s worth are not the same.  When a Lionel collector (and I am one) boasts of his great collection, he means at least in part that it’s worth a lot of money.  Of course HO is collectible and gives great satisfaction to those of us who collect it.  It’s just that the price tags on it are smaller than on Lionel or Flyer and probably always will be, thank goodness.

                ---------

                FWIW, buying old kits for the purpose of collecting them holds no interest for me. I care little for getting a full set of boxcars from manufacturer X or Y. Even the Globe, Varney, Penn Line or other early plastic kits don't interest me.
                 What does attract me are the old wooden or metal craftsman kits, like Central Valley, Ulrich, Ambroid, Silver Streak, FSM etc. The reason they attract me is that there's more satisfaction in completing one of them compared to the plastic shake-the-box kits. Getting a full set of any of these is not any sort of goal of mine.
                 To me it's unfortunate that there is a collectible value to these compared to their original prices. Central Valley kits, for example, seem to be selling for $30-40, many times what they cost four decades ago. Luckily I have been able to find some decent deals on occasion at club-sponsored swap meets.

                Rick Jones

                 
                    
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8330 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: What Railroad if Any?
                   asleepy60
                                    This is going to be interesting. I saw the picture you posted. The paperwork and the cars are for the Varney all metal streamlined passenger cars. These cars were a smooth baked enamel finish (lithographed ???). The cars,as is stated, in Greenbergs Guide to Varney Trains were a three car set (combine, coach and observation). You show an extra coach. They came in the following roadnames. Baltimore & Ohio, Southern Pacific Daylight, Great Northern, Illinois Central, Union Pacific and Pennsylvania. These cars all had lettering on them for the road they represented. Each of the roadnames and the different types of cars all had small numbers starting with S-1 to S-18 on the bottom in front of one of the trucks. I have a set of each so I can back up the book and what it says.
                            The same cars produced between 1958-1959 that were exact as the above except kits. They were available decorated for the Pennsylvania, Illinois Central,Great Northern and Southern Pacific (Silver body). The only identifiable difference is the box kit number  Combine 2470, Coach 2471 and Observation 2472. I have never seen this silver body Southern Pacific type.
                           As to the cars you have they are definitely Varney design /style. One odd part is it looks like the windows were solid in the body and painted. Are they ??? All the Varney metal streamlined cars that were sold had the windows "punched out'. On to the paint scheme on yours. I can't identify what it should represent but as I stated before all other Varney metal cars have the roadname on the cars plus that little number. Your cars have none.
                           Look very closely at the paint. Are there any "lines" that would suggest they were painted by someone. The possibility exist that they were some type of Varney prototype that got out and should not have. I believe that possibility is small.
                            Don't know what else to say. Sorry I can't ID for sure. Hope this helps somewhat. Perhaps someone else viewing the picture can add to this. I have read overa number of times and hope I made no mistakes.
                                                                                                    Jim H
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: asleepy60
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:24 PM
                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What Railroad if Any?

                Will try to post picture in photo section.
                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                >
                > Although Varney had plastic sided with wood, all metal and all
                plastic streamlined passenger cars there are not any I can remember
                having the colors you state. I think Don's request to post pictures
                if possible would be best. Easier to decide. They may have
                been "custom" painted.
                > Jim H
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: asleepy60
                > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 3:27 PM
                > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What Railroad if Any?
                >
                >
                > I recently acquired a 4 car set of Varney streamlined passenger
                cars.
                > They have a black roof, a red band from the roof down below the
                windows
                > and a yellow area below the windows to the car bottom.
                > Can anyone tell me if this scheme represents a particular
                railroad or
                > might it just be a paint scheme developed at the factory. There
                are no
                > markings on the car which would indicate a specific railroad, a
                car
                > name or even a number assigned to the car. Thank you.
                >
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8331 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: two cast brass tenders on ebay?
                                Good to know the Knapp tender design wound up at Red Ball. I didn't know that but it definitely went through Bill Bowser / Bowser , Redlands California before.
                                                                                Jim H
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:12 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] two cast brass tenders on ebay?

                Item 310116512028 looks to be by Knapp.  The underframe is somewhat unique.  The tooling was sold to Red Ball, so it might be a later production

                Garry Spear

                On 1/21/09, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                And is this other one, also on ebay, with big photos, listed to start at 99 cents,
                is this one related by maker?
                 
                 
                 
                ---------

                HO cast brass tender with trucks Item number: 310116512028

                "HO cast brass tender with trucks. I am not sure who manufactured this tender, but it is made of one piece cast brass. Tender has brass trucks with a brass coupler and a copper drawbar. "


                ____________ _________ _________ __
                From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:17:17 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...


                Jim, Sean,

                below is the number and a pic of an ebay listing for 3 cast parts, listed as for a Varney Tender.

                It's  bid right now at $5, but since I'm old diesel only, I'll pass it to you experts on vintage cast steam!

                the two tender halves do look like they'd make a Vanderbilt style when combined.

                Is this what Jim just described?



                Chris B. 
                ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---

                HEAVY BRASS CASTING FOR A HO TENDER from VARNEY Item number: 310116865947



                ____________ _________ _________ __
                From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:59:04 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pre-War 2-8-0 Consolidation sold on eBay last night...


                 Also Varney did sell (I think A&S cast it for them) one brass and or bronze tender. It was a Vanderbilt style like their Aluminum Vanderbilt tender.

                       Like Sean stated I know of no other cast brass Mountain then the Knapp/Bowser. They used the same boiler (and tender) but Bowser had a different drive then the Knapp.
                                                                      Jim H
                 
                  
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Sean Naylor
                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com


                You stated this had a cast brass or bronze tender. The Consolidation that ended last night had a sheet brass or bronze tender. The only mountains I know know of that had cast brass tenders wer made by Bowser or Knapp.  The difference I know between the two is Bowser has the box spoke drivers and the Knapp has the thin spoked. (Thanks to Jim Heckard)

                Sound to me like you had one or the other and you traded an original tender with a later bowser tender..  however, Varney did make a Mountain and I do believe it came with a cast brass Boiler. I am not sure what other tenders Varney had. I do not beileve they had any cast brass.

                Sean

                Sean
                --- On Mon, 1/19/09, railwaymodeler <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com> wrote:


                The tender the Mountain had, I swapped it out for a Bowser tender, and
                gave the old cast brass or bronze (I think bronze) to my friend Bob,
                who runs the hobby shop.

                Strange, though- the Mountain has a pilot deck that says 'Varney' on
                it, though it doesn't look quite original to the locomotive.

                -Steve Neubaum
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8332 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                I'm an accumulator.

                I see it, I like it, I can afford it, I get it.

                Being a collector implies more money, organization and knowledge than I posess.

                Willard

                At 10:07 PM 1/21/2009, you wrote:
                I sometimes wonder if I am a collector or an accumulator
                 
                8^)    gj
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Gary Woodard
                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:22 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                Hi Jim,
                 
                One thing is for certain, we as model railroaders are all collectors, whether we collect stuff we want for running, or we collect as an
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8333 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                Hi Glenn,
                 
                Whats the difference?
                 
                Gary W

                 
                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:07:45 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                I sometimes wonder if I am a collector or an accumulator
                 
                8^)    gj
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:22 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                Hi Jim,
                 
                One thing is for certain, we as model railroaders are all collectors, whether we collect stuff we want for running, or we collect as an

                Group: vintageHO Message: 8334 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Gary Woodard" <betsy662@...>
                To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:22 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains


                Hi Jim,

                One thing is for certain, we as model railroaders are all collectors,
                whether we collect stuff we want for running, or we collect as an
                investment, (the fools), years ago when I was modeling in N scale, I would
                watch these jokers buying up all that neet Micro Trains rolling stock, and
                make no mistake, MT makes nice stuff, but if you want to drive a MT
                collector nuts, weather the piece, especially a rare piece, that just kills
                em, I got tired of hearing how terrible a person I am for weathering entire
                trains of MT rolling stock when it could have retained its value, the
                problem is, I buy my trains to run them, not to look at them sitting in a
                little plastic box, kind of useless if thats all one wants trains
                for...........:o)

                Gary W

                (text bobbitted)
                +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                Which is EXACTLY what this group is all about! The full name of the group
                is "Vintage HO OPERATORS"

                Don

                Don Dellmann
                don.dellmann@...
                http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                Owner
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8335 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/21/2009
                Subject: Re: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity A
                --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:

                Hi Rick,
                 
                You need to physically click on the play button..............:o)

                ----------

                There wasn't one. As mentioned in my other post, the control panel on the video player disappeared after a moment.

                Rick Jones
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8336 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Re: What Railroad if Any?
                Well,

                I'm convinced I've seen an identical set of cars a few decades ago.  From the first description of these cars, I remembered seeing them ages ago as well.

                Best to ya'
                Mike Bauers
                Milwaukee Wi, USA

                On Jan 21, 2009, at 10:00 PM, Jim Heckard wrote:

                   asleepy60
                                    This is going to be interesting. I saw the picture you posted. The paperwork and the cars are for the Varney all metal streamlined passenger cars. These cars were a smooth baked enamel finish (lithographed ???). The cars,as is stated, in Greenbergs Guide to Varney Trains were a three car set (combine, coach and observation). You show an extra coach. They came in the following roadnames. Baltimore & Ohio, Southern Pacific Daylight, Great Northern, Illinois Central, Union Pacific and Pennsylvania. These cars all had lettering on them for the road they represented. Each of the roadnames and the different types of cars all had small numbers starting with S-1 to S-18 on the bottom in front of one of the trucks. I have a set of each so I can back up the book and what it says.
                            The same cars produced between 1958-1959 that were exact as the above except kits. They were available decorated for the Pennsylvania, Illinois Central,Great Northern and Southern Pacific (Silver body). The only identifiable difference is the box kit number  Combine 2470, Coach 2471 and Observation 2472. I have never seen this silver body Southern Pacific type.
                           As to the cars you have they are definitely Varney design /style. One odd part is it looks like the windows were solid in the body and painted. Are they ??? All the Varney metal streamlined cars that were sold had the windows "punched out'. On to the paint scheme on yours. I can't identify what it should represent but as I stated before all other Varney metal cars have the roadname on the cars plus that little number. Your cars have none.
                           Look very closely at the paint. Are there any "lines" that would suggest they were painted by someone. The possibility exist that they were some type of Varney prototype that got out and should not have. I believe that possibility is small.
                            Don't know what else to say. Sorry I can't ID for sure. Hope this helps somewhat. Perhaps someone else viewing the picture can add to this. I have read overa number of times and hope I made no mistakes.
                                                                                                    Jim H
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: asleepy60

                Will try to post picture in photo section.
                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                >
                > Although Varney had plastic sided with wood, all metal and all
                plastic streamlined passenger cars there are not any I can remember
                having the colors you state. I think Don's request to post pictures
                if possible would be best. Easier to decide. They may have
                been "custom" painted.
                > Jim H
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: asleepy60
                > I recently acquired a 4 car set of Varney streamlined passenger
                cars.
                > They have a black roof, a red band from the roof down below the
                windows
                > and a yellow area below the windows ........
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8337 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                I am a hoarder.... and a pack rat..
                 
                if you ask my wife..
                 
                Sean

                --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
                From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains
                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 11:35 PM

                Hi Glenn,
                 
                Whats the difference?
                 
                Gary W

                 
                Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net>
                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:07:45 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                I sometimes wonder if I am a collector or an accumulator
                 
                8^)    gj
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:22 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                Hi Jim,
                 
                One thing is for certain, we as model railroaders are all collectors, whether we collect stuff we want for running, or we collect as an


                Group: vintageHO Message: 8338 From: oljoeoh Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                In my opinion...
                The brass locos from the 50's and 60's are the
                truely collectable items. Most of those, except for
                the articulateds were in the $50 to $75 range and
                now sell in the $400 to $500 range - when they
                are offered. They often have frenzied bidding
                when offered with numerous bidders. Other HO
                items often attract attention but usually those
                were/are low production items (like brass). High
                production items rarely produce more than passing
                interest and $$.
                Joe O'Loughlin



                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, WK2SHR@... wrote:
                >
                > Larry:
                >
                > It's a matter of opinion of what is collectible in HO I think.
                >
                > Over the years, a LOT of HO that has (and is still) being produced
                > is pure, utter junk. This, in spite of being super detailed and
                > over priced.
                >
                > It's probably a matter of individual taste -and opinion. I have been
                > in the hobby for over 50+ years now, and have a LOT of HO from
                > many years. Very little is truly "collectible" as far as I am concerned,
                > especially if it's made of plastic.
                >
                > Some is just old, but not necessarily valuable -- or collectible.
                >
                > Just an opinion.....
                >
                > Dave F
                >
                >
                >
                > **************
                > A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
                > steps!
                >
                (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De
                > cemailfooterNO62)
                >
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8339 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                Hi Jim,
                 
                It was a cities service tank car.
                 
                The sale was sometime near Sat Jun 02, 2007
                 
                 HO Gilbert Cities Service Tank Car 33314 OB Liner EX + Item number: 320117710066
                 
                It sold for $2,555.67
                 
                Had it saved in my email...  I am a hoarder...
                 
                I have a picture of it, but I tink it is on my home computer. I do not recall it being missing any steps, but I do believe the couplers or trucks may not have been original. I am not sure about that though... something was off though... but I do not think it was missing any steps..
                 
                Sean
                 


                --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains
                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 7:52 PM

                Louis,
                                    I think the words collectable, vintage and value (especially resale value) are all different depending where each collector is coming from. I only collect (to keep, I do not resell). I collect vintage items (based on my own time frame from the beginning of HO 1936 to 1977). Value to me is having one of each product made by a certain producer whether it is a large or small amount because having one of each item made, a set you could say, has value.
                        A person who,buys, sells and trades is at a different place in the meanings. Semantics ?  There is not a "collector" that does not want to find items as low as possible and sell them as high as possible. As I have said many times Lionel O and American Flyer S have pretty well set and defined values based on condition. HO has not fully reached that yet because there is still a lot unknown. That is shown in how prices vary depending on how bad a person wants a certain piece. 
                       I don't know how high the value of certain Lionel items can go but I want to relay a story. Years ago, maybe 4 or 5, a buyer on Ebay bought ONE American Flyer HO tanker (forget the rr name but it was green) with broken steps for $1,300, no decimal.
                He wanted that particular piece. Years ago a seller out of Hong Kong sold an original Rivarossi factory painted 4-4-2 Hiawatha (HO not O and NOT brass) with the original passenger cars for $5,000. Again more because someone wanted the item and because there is not enough sales to "put a price on it"
                                                                                                           Jim H
                          
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:22 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                Dear Group:

                    The issues of whether something is collectible and how much it’s worth are not the same.  When a Lionel collector (and I am one) boasts of his great collection, he means at least in part that it’s worth a lot of money.  Of course HO is collectible and gives great satisfaction to those of us who collect it.  It’s just that the price tags on it are smaller than on Lionel or Flyer and probably always will be, thank goodness.

                                                                                                                                                                Lou


                On 1/21/09 1:41 PM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net> wrote:

                 


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com <mailto:sprinthag% 40yahoo.com> >
                To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> >
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:15 AM
                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> , "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> If you think $1200 is a bit heavy to pay for a model, just be lucky
                >> you're not into collecting railroadiana.  Someone this morning just
                >> paid $537 for a piece of printed cardboard!!!  There was a Reading
                >> Lines breakfast menu from the innaugural run of the stainless steel
                >> streamlined Crusader train accompanied with a souvenir reservation
                >> ticket for the 1st run (December 12, 1937).  These guys are serious
                >> about collecting stuff from their favorite railroad name trains.
                >> Ebay # 330301180131.  Ray W.
                >>
                > Thats why I don't collect railroadiana.
                >
                > John Hagen

                I have TWO souvenir programs from the 1948 Chicago Railroad Fair.  Will I be
                able to retire on them? :-)

                Don

                Don Dellmann
                don.dellmann@ prodigy.net <mailto:don.dellmann %40prodigy. net>
                http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                Owner
                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                 
                    

                Group: vintageHO Message: 8340 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                Sean,
                        You are right about the sale and price you mention. I was talking about a different sale of the same item. I mentioned it, with the broken steps, just to show what someone would pay for HO.
                                                                                                                      Jim
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 9:02 AM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                Hi Jim,
                 
                It was a cities service tank car.
                 
                The sale was sometime near Sat Jun 02, 2007
                 
                 HO Gilbert Cities Service Tank Car 33314 OB Liner EX + Item number: 320117710066
                 
                It sold for $2,555.67
                 
                Had it saved in my email...  I am a hoarder...
                 
                I have a picture of it, but I tink it is on my home computer. I do not recall it being missing any steps, but I do believe the couplers or trucks may not have been original. I am not sure about that though... something was off though... but I do not think it was missing any steps..
                 
                Sean
                 


                --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
                From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains
                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 7:52 PM

                Louis,
                                    I think the words collectable, vintage and value (especially resale value) are all different depending where each collector is coming from. I only collect (to keep, I do not resell). I collect vintage items (based on my own time frame from the beginning of HO 1936 to 1977). Value to me is having one of each product made by a certain producer whether it is a large or small amount because having one of each item made, a set you could say, has value.
                        A person who,buys, sells and trades is at a different place in the meanings. Semantics ?  There is not a "collector" that does not want to find items as low as possible and sell them as high as possible. As I have said many times Lionel O and American Flyer S have pretty well set and defined values based on condition. HO has not fully reached that yet because there is still a lot unknown. That is shown in how prices vary depending on how bad a person wants a certain piece. 
                       I don't know how high the value of certain Lionel items can go but I want to relay a story. Years ago, maybe 4 or 5, a buyer on Ebay bought ONE American Flyer HO tanker (forget the rr name but it was green) with broken steps for $1,300, no decimal.
                He wanted that particular piece. Years ago a seller out of Hong Kong sold an original Rivarossi factory painted 4-4-2 Hiawatha (HO not O and NOT brass) with the original passenger cars for $5,000. Again more because someone wanted the item and because there is not enough sales to "put a price on it"
                                                                                                           Jim H
                          
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:22 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                Dear Group:

                    The issues of whether something is collectible and how much it’s worth are not the same.  When a Lionel collector (and I am one) boasts of his great collection, he means at least in part that it’s worth a lot of money.  Of course HO is collectible and gives great satisfaction to those of us who collect it.  It’s just that the price tags on it are smaller than on Lionel or Flyer and probably always will be, thank goodness.

                                                                                                                                                                Lou


                On 1/21/09 1:41 PM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net> wrote:

                 


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com <mailto:sprinthag% 40yahoo.com> >
                To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> >
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:15 AM
                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> , "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> If you think $1200 is a bit heavy to pay for a model, just be lucky
                >> you're not into collecting railroadiana.  Someone this morning just
                >> paid $537 for a piece of printed cardboard!!!  There was a Reading
                >> Lines breakfast menu from the innaugural run of the stainless steel
                >> streamlined Crusader train accompanied with a souvenir reservation
                >> ticket for the 1st run (December 12, 1937).  These guys are serious
                >> about collecting stuff from their favorite railroad name trains.
                >> Ebay # 330301180131.  Ray W.
                >>
                > Thats why I don't collect railroadiana.
                >
                > John Hagen

                I have TWO souvenir programs from the 1948 Chicago Railroad Fair.  Will I be
                able to retire on them? :-)

                Don

                Don Dellmann
                don.dellmann@ prodigy.net <mailto:don.dellmann %40prodigy. net>
                http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                Owner
                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                 
                    

                Group: vintageHO Message: 8341 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Re: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity A
                Oh! Now I see your problem, that can happen at times, don't know why, but that certainly explains it........:o)
                 
                Gary W

                 
                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:00:44 AM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: [The GAUX Dispatcher] "Hit or Miss" Video Shows How Stupidity Affects Everyone

                --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> wrote:

                Hi Rick,
                 
                You need to physically click on the play button...... ........: o)

                ----------

                There wasn't one. As mentioned in my other post, the control panel on the video player disappeared after a moment.

                Rick Jones
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8342 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Re: What Railroad if Any?
                Mike,
                    Hope you can remember more about the cars you saw. This topic has peaked my interest. If it is an unlisted or unknown production it would be nice to know. Sometime items were produced and never sold to the public but still got out. Can you put a real railroad to the colors ??? Anybody??
                                                                                      Jim
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 6:44 AM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: What Railroad if Any?

                Well,


                I'm convinced I've seen an identical set of cars a few decades ago.  From the first description  of these cars, I remembered seeing them ages ago as well.

                Best to ya'
                Mike Bauers
                Milwaukee Wi, USA


                On Jan 21, 2009, at 10:00 PM, Jim Heckard wrote:

                   asleepy60
                                    This is going to be interesting.  I saw the picture you posted. The paperwork and the cars are for the Varney all metal streamlined passenger cars. These cars were a smooth baked enamel finish (lithographed ???). The cars,as is stated, in Greenbergs Guide to Varney Trains were a three car set (combine, coach and observation) . You show an extra coach. They came in the following roadnames. Baltimore & Ohio, Southern Pacific Daylight, Great Northern, Illinois Central, Union Pacific and Pennsylvania. These cars all had lettering on them for the road they represented. Each of the roadnames and the different types of cars all had small numbers starting with S-1 to S-18 on the bottom in front of one of the trucks. I have a set of each so I can back up the book and what it says.
                            The same cars produced between 1958-1959 that were exact as the above except kits. They were available decorated for the Pennsylvania, Illinois Central,Great Northern and Southern Pacific (Silver body). The only identifiable difference is the box kit number  Combine 2470, Coach 2471 and Observation 2472. I have never seen this silver body Southern Pacific type.
                           As to the cars you have they are definitely Varney design /style. One odd part is it looks like the windows were solid in the body and painted. Are they ??? All the Varney metal streamlined cars that were sold had the windows "punched out'. On to the paint scheme on yours. I can't identify what it should represent but as I stated before all other Varney metal cars have the roadname on the cars plus that little number. Your cars have none.
                           Look very closely at the paint. Are there any "lines" that would suggest they were painted by someone. The possibility exist that they were some type of Varney prototype that got out and should not have. I believe that possibility is small.
                            Don't know what else to say. Sorry I can't ID for sure. Hope this helps somewhat. Perhaps someone else viewing the picture can add to this. I have read overa number of times and hope I made no mistakes.
                                                                                                    Jim H
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: asleepy60

                Will try to post picture in photo section.
                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                >
                > Although Varney had plastic sided with wood, all metal and all
                plastic streamlined passenger cars there are not any I can remember
                having the colors you state. I think Don's request to post pictures
                if possible would be best. Easier to decide. They may have
                been "custom" painted.
                > Jim H
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: asleepy60
                > I recently acquired a 4 car set of Varney streamlined passenger
                cars.
                > They have a black roof, a red band from the roof down below the
                windows
                > and a yellow area below the windows ........
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8343 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                I see Jim.. I did not realize there was another one..
                 
                Sean

                --- On Thu, 1/22/09, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains
                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, January 22, 2009, 10:01 AM

                Sean,
                        You are right about the sale and price you mention. I was talking about a different sale of the same item. I mentioned it, with the broken steps, just to show what someone would pay for HO.
                                                                                                                      Jim
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 9:02 AM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                Hi Jim,
                 
                It was a cities service tank car.
                 
                The sale was sometime near Sat Jun 02, 2007
                 
                 HO Gilbert Cities Service Tank Car 33314 OB Liner EX + Item number: 320117710066
                 
                It sold for $2,555.67
                 
                Had it saved in my email...  I am a hoarder...
                 
                I have a picture of it, but I tink it is on my home computer. I do not recall it being missing any steps, but I do believe the couplers or trucks may not have been original. I am not sure about that though... something was off though... but I do not think it was missing any steps..
                 
                Sean
                 


                --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
                From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains
                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 7:52 PM

                Louis,
                                    I think the words collectable, vintage and value (especially resale value) are all different depending where each collector is coming from. I only collect (to keep, I do not resell). I collect vintage items (based on my own time frame from the beginning of HO 1936 to 1977). Value to me is having one of each product made by a certain producer whether it is a large or small amount because having one of each item made, a set you could say, has value.
                        A person who,buys, sells and trades is at a different place in the meanings. Semantics ?  There is not a "collector" that does not want to find items as low as possible and sell them as high as possible. As I have said many times Lionel O and American Flyer S have pretty well set and defined values based on condition. HO has not fully reached that yet because there is still a lot unknown. That is shown in how prices vary depending on how bad a person wants a certain piece. 
                       I don't know how high the value of certain Lionel items can go but I want to relay a story. Years ago, maybe 4 or 5, a buyer on Ebay bought ONE American Flyer HO tanker (forget the rr name but it was green) with broken steps for $1,300, no decimal.
                He wanted that particular piece. Years ago a seller out of Hong Kong sold an original Rivarossi factory painted 4-4-2 Hiawatha (HO not O and NOT brass) with the original passenger cars for $5,000. Again more because someone wanted the item and because there is not enough sales to "put a price on it"
                                                                                                           Jim H
                          
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 7:22 PM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                Dear Group:

                    The issues of whether something is collectible and how much it’s worth are not the same.  When a Lionel collector (and I am one) boasts of his great collection, he means at least in part that it’s worth a lot of money.  Of course HO is collectible and gives great satisfaction to those of us who collect it.  It’s just that the price tags on it are smaller than on Lionel or Flyer and probably always will be, thank goodness.

                                                                                                                                                                Lou


                On 1/21/09 1:41 PM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net> wrote:

                 


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com <mailto:sprinthag% 40yahoo.com> >
                To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> >
                Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:15 AM
                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains

                > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> , "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> If you think $1200 is a bit heavy to pay for a model, just be lucky
                >> you're not into collecting railroadiana.  Someone this morning just
                >> paid $537 for a piece of printed cardboard!!!  There was a Reading
                >> Lines breakfast menu from the innaugural run of the stainless steel
                >> streamlined Crusader train accompanied with a souvenir reservation
                >> ticket for the 1st run (December 12, 1937).  These guys are serious
                >> about collecting stuff from their favorite railroad name trains.
                >> Ebay # 330301180131.  Ray W.
                >>
                > Thats why I don't collect railroadiana.
                >
                > John Hagen

                I have TWO souvenir programs from the 1948 Chicago Railroad Fair.  Will I be
                able to retire on them? :-)

                Don

                Don Dellmann
                don.dellmann@ prodigy.net <mailto:don.dellmann %40prodigy. net>
                http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                Owner
                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                 
                    


                Group: vintageHO Message: 8344 From: Ed Weldon Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Re: First Roundhouse 0-6-0's w/ lead cast boilers and brass cabs
                Glenn -- Thanks for your answer.  About that postwar Roundhouse 0-6-0 kit you have with the 5 piece cab. Are the pieces die castings or brass?  Is the boiler a zinc alloy die casting or some kind of heavy lead type alloy (if you can tell?)
                Jim -- 1939 suggests that there were likely at least few dozen made before the big war effort started in 1941. 
                Looks to me like this is a long story.
                One other thing I heard was that there was an article in Model Railroader sometime in the last 15 or 20 years that was about Cliff Grandt and mentioned the Roundhouse 0-6-0.  Anyone know which issue?
                Again, Thanks Glenn and Jim for your helpful answers.
                Ed Weldon
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8345 From: John Hagen Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Re: First Roundhouse 0-6-0's w/ lead cast boilers and brass cabs
                Ed,

                I have one of the MDC 0-6-0 with the 5-piece cab and it is a white
                metal (Zamac, zinc-alloy) casting. A very nicely done and clean casting
                by the way. There has been some minor clean up done by the one of it's
                previous owners (this is one I just picked up from Roger Aultman,
                another list member) but it looks as any flash was minimal. Being a
                smallish boiler, it would be nice if it were to be a Cary-like lead
                alloy for added weight but they is what they is.

                John Hagen

                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Weldon" <23.weldon@...> wrote:
                >
                > Glenn -- Thanks for your answer. About that postwar Roundhouse 0-6-0
                kit you have with the 5 piece cab. Are the pieces die castings or
                brass? Is the boiler a zinc alloy die casting or some kind of heavy
                lead type alloy (if you can tell?)
                > Jim -- 1939 suggests that there were likely at least few dozen made
                before the big war effort started in 1941.
                > Looks to me like this is a long story.
                > One other thing I heard was that there was an article in Model
                Railroader sometime in the last 15 or 20 years that was about Cliff
                Grandt and mentioned the Roundhouse 0-6-0. Anyone know which issue?
                > Again, Thanks Glenn and Jim for your helpful answers.
                > Ed Weldon
                >
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8346 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Re: First Roundhouse 0-6-0's w/ lead cast boilers and brass cabs
                The 1948 MDC 0-6-0 kit I have is all Zamak.  I got it from S. Perry Jenkins who was the original purchaser. The box is a shallow box in an "Air Force" blue, with all the parts displayed in cutouts in the inner tray. 
                 
                I remember the story on Cliff--Two possible times for the MR article--one would be a "5-year" anniversary, or in an obituary.  If someone comes up with a month and year, I have a fairly complete set of MR's.  As I think of it--probably the obit. 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Ed Weldon
                Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:29 AM
                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: First Roundhouse 0-6-0's w/ lead cast boilers and brass cabs

                Glenn -- Thanks for your answer.  About that postwar Roundhouse 0-6-0 kit you have with the 5 piece cab. Are the pieces die castings or brass?  Is the boiler a zinc alloy die casting or some kind of heavy lead type alloy (if you can tell?)
                Jim -- 1939 suggests that there were likely at least few dozen made before the big war effort started in 1941. 
                Looks to me like this is a long story.
                One other thing I heard was that there was an article in Model Railroader sometime in the last 15 or 20 years that was about Cliff Grandt and mentioned the Roundhouse 0-6-0.  Anyone know which issue?
                Again, Thanks Glenn and Jim for your helpful answers.
                Ed Weldon


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                Group: vintageHO Message: 8347 From: asleepy60 Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: What Railroad If Any?
                First of all, thank you to those who responded to my question.

                I did look at the underside of the cars with a magnifying glass but did
                not see any letters or numbers as was mentioned.

                The cars have a baked on enamel finish so they were not a repaint by an
                individual. Cars are all metal and smooth sided. My guess is they are
                62 footers.

                The window areas are punched out. The window "glazing" is opaque and I
                did not disassemble the car to see if it is plastic or some other
                material.

                I did notice that the extra coach was a little bit different from the
                other three in that it has grab irons on each side of the roof (total
                of 4 in all on the roof).

                No names or numbers on the sides. Plastic trucks with metal wheels.
                They are wired for lighting but don't illuminate. Could be that the
                post office damaged the bulbs when they smashed the package or maybe
                the bulbs are just burned out.

                Have just acquired a 6 car set which has black roofs and dark green
                sides. These have wood floors and are in not such good shape as the
                first set. One would think that the color scheme is that of the
                Burlington Northern; but, of course, the Burlington and Great Northern
                hadn't merged when this set was produced.
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8348 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Re: What Railroad If Any?
                The Varney streamliners I am thinking of had black molded plastic ends with
                two "vents" about 1.4" square that stuck up thru the matching holes in the
                roof. Floors were a sheet steel "pan" or a wide shallow channel. I recall
                some sort of body bolsters---the trucks were die cast with sprung
                equalizers, and the nylon "pizza cutter" wheelsets. Three body
                styles--combine, coach, and observation. The obs had a black plastic end
                that included the roof and skirting end, and a door that locked in the ends
                of the sides. gj

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "asleepy60" <asleepy60@...>
                To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:55 AM
                Subject: [vintageHO] What Railroad If Any?


                > First of all, thank you to those who responded to my question.
                >
                > I did look at the underside of the cars with a magnifying glass but did
                > not see any letters or numbers as was mentioned.
                >
                > The cars have a baked on enamel finish so they were not a repaint by an
                > individual. Cars are all metal and smooth sided. My guess is they are
                > 62 footers.
                >
                > The window areas are punched out. The window "glazing" is opaque and I
                > did not disassemble the car to see if it is plastic or some other
                > material.
                >
                > I did notice that the extra coach was a little bit different from the
                > other three in that it has grab irons on each side of the roof (total
                > of 4 in all on the roof).
                >
                > No names or numbers on the sides. Plastic trucks with metal wheels.
                > They are wired for lighting but don't illuminate. Could be that the
                > post office damaged the bulbs when they smashed the package or maybe
                > the bulbs are just burned out.
                >
                > Have just acquired a 6 car set which has black roofs and dark green
                > sides. These have wood floors and are in not such good shape as the
                > first set. One would think that the color scheme is that of the
                > Burlington Northern; but, of course, the Burlington and Great Northern
                > hadn't merged when this set was produced.
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >


                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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                Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1909 - Release Date: 1/22/2009
                7:08 AM
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8349 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Re: What Railroad If Any?
                make those vents 1/4" square. gj
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
                To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 11:23 AM
                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What Railroad If Any?


                > The Varney streamliners I am thinking of had black molded plastic ends
                > with
                > two "vents" about 1.4" square that stuck up thru the matching holes in the
                > roof. Floors were a sheet steel "pan" or a wide shallow channel. I
                > recall
                > some sort of body bolsters---the trucks were die cast with sprung
                > equalizers, and the nylon "pizza cutter" wheelsets. Three body
                > styles--combine, coach, and observation. The obs had a black plastic end
                > that included the roof and skirting end, and a door that locked in the
                > ends
                > of the sides. gj
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "asleepy60" <asleepy60@...>
                > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:55 AM
                > Subject: [vintageHO] What Railroad If Any?
                >
                >
                >> First of all, thank you to those who responded to my question.
                >>
                >> I did look at the underside of the cars with a magnifying glass but did
                >> not see any letters or numbers as was mentioned.
                >>
                >> The cars have a baked on enamel finish so they were not a repaint by an
                >> individual. Cars are all metal and smooth sided. My guess is they are
                >> 62 footers.
                >>
                >> The window areas are punched out. The window "glazing" is opaque and I
                >> did not disassemble the car to see if it is plastic or some other
                >> material.
                >>
                >> I did notice that the extra coach was a little bit different from the
                >> other three in that it has grab irons on each side of the roof (total
                >> of 4 in all on the roof).
                >>
                >> No names or numbers on the sides. Plastic trucks with metal wheels.
                >> They are wired for lighting but don't illuminate. Could be that the
                >> post office damaged the bulbs when they smashed the package or maybe
                >> the bulbs are just burned out.
                >>
                >> Have just acquired a 6 car set which has black roofs and dark green
                >> sides. These have wood floors and are in not such good shape as the
                >> first set. One would think that the color scheme is that of the
                >> Burlington Northern; but, of course, the Burlington and Great Northern
                >> hadn't merged when this set was produced.
                >>
                >>
                >> ------------------------------------
                >>
                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >
                >
                >
                > No virus found in this incoming message.
                > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1909 - Release Date:
                > 1/22/2009
                > 7:08 AM
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >


                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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                Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1909 - Release Date: 1/22/2009
                7:08 AM
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8350 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Varney Meta lPassenger
                Hi Glenn,
                   .       It is hard to write every detail in a long Email. In my email, to the person with the odd colored Varney passenger cars, when I said all metal I was talking about the bodies. You are correct in the plastic parts you cite on them, ends with the vents coming up though the roof and bolsters. To add all the observation cars had that rounded end piece that was part of the roof and they also had two plastic little rear lights on either side. These original all metal passenger cars had Varney plastic dummy couplers. The Pennsylvania cars and The Southern Pacific Daylight were the only cars with  black plastic pieces.  B&O and Union Pacific were Gray, Great Northern had Green and Illinois Central had Dark Brown. These are the original colors for the cars but are easily interchangeable. All floors were metal. Cars were not lighted but some owners added them. All cars had metal "handrails" provided if kits or on them in pre drilled holes. Originally the trucks were Varney metal with springs and plastic wheels. A lot of time these got changed to other trucks especially Central Valley but again not that would not be original.
                        Just to further add to and clarify what was original.  Have a good one.
                                                                                                             Jim H
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8351 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: just a thought
                              I think it is important that we all remember that vintage HO is not an exact science. There will always be new items found that are not listed in books and catalogs, this will include variations because of different production runs, modifications made by modelers because that is what they like to do with so many parts interchangeable and finally "hybrids" will appear from time to time because of using left over stock and inventories as companies change hands.
                                                                                Jim H 
                                                                                             
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8352 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Re: What Railroad if Any?
                I saw them in the flesh and might have handled them. 

                It was on a layout somewhere. Either a local private layout or a passenger trainset that one of the students at MSOE was running in the 70's.

                I'm reminded of some southern region railroad using that scheme, something that ran at least partly in Texas and might have Texas as part of the road name.

                Best to Ya,
                Mike Bauers
                Milwaukee, Wi

                On Jan 22, 2009, at 9:09 AM, Jim Heckard wrote:

                Mike,
                    Hope you can remember more about the cars you saw. This topic has peaked my interest. If it is an unlisted or unknown production it would be nice to know. Sometime items were produced and never sold to the public but still got out. Can you put a real railroad to the colors ??? Anybody??
                                                                                      Jim
                ----- Original Message -----

                Well,


                I'm convinced I've seen an identical set of cars a few decades ago.  From the first description  of these cars, I remembered seeing them ages ago as well.


                On Jan 21, 2009, at 10:00 PM, Jim Heckard wrote:

                   asleepy60
                                    This is going to be interesting.  I saw the picture you posted. The paperwork and the cars are for the Varney all metal streamlined passenger cars. These cars were a smooth baked enamel finish (lithographed ???). The cars,as is stated, in Greenbergs Guide to Varney Trains were a three car set (combine, coach and observation) . You show an extra coach. They came in the following roadnames. Baltimore & Ohio, Southern Pacific Daylight, Great Northern, Illinois Central, Union Pacific and Pennsylvania. These cars all had lettering on them for the road they represented. Each of the roadnames and the different types of cars all had small numbers starting with S-1 to S-18 on the bottom in front of one of the trucks. I have a set of each so I can back up the book and what it says.
                            The same cars produced between 1958-1959 that were exact as the above except kits. They were available decorated for the Pennsylvania, Illinois Central,Great Northern and Southern Pacific (Silver body). The only identifiable difference is the box kit number  Combine 2470, Coach 2471 and Observation 2472. I have never seen this silver body Southern Pacific type.
                           As to the cars you have they are definitely Varney design /style. One odd part is it looks like the windows were solid in the body and painted. Are they ??? All the Varney metal streamlined cars that were sold had the windows "punched out'. On to the paint scheme on yours. I can't identify what it should represent but as I stated before all other Varney metal cars have the roadname on the cars plus that little number. Your cars have none.
                           Look very closely at the paint. Are there any "lines" that would suggest they were painted by someone. The possibility exist that they were some type of Varney prototype that got out and should not have. I believe that possibility is small.
                            Don't know what else to say. Sorry I can't ID for sure. Hope this helps somewhat. Perhaps someone else viewing the picture can add to this. I have read overa number of times and hope I made no mistakes.
                                                                                                    Jim H
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: asleepy60

                Will try to post picture in photo section.
                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                >
                > Although Varney had plastic sided with wood, all metal and all
                plastic streamlined passenger cars there are not any I can remember
                having the colors you state. I think Don's request to post pictures
                if possible would be best. Easier to decide. They may have
                been "custom" painted.
                > Jim H
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: asleepy60
                > I recently acquired a 4 car set of Varney streamlined passenger
                cars.
                > They have a black roof, a red band from the roof down below the
                windows
                > and a yellow area below the windows ........
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8353 From: Karl Peters Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Re: HO Trains
                Dear Rick:
                 
                Have to agree very much with you. For me, there is more enjoyment in building these older kits than in the newer plastic or resin kits. Most of my caboose fleet and work car equipment is Silver Streak, and most of my locomotives are either Tyco/Mantua, or Hobbytown.
                 
                Like yourself, I have noticed that some brands of kits tend to be "collectable" and higher priced, but some careful shopping has resulted in some good bargins.
                 
                Karl Peters
                 
                 
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8354 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Who made HO CNW HO tinplate?
                I have three or four HO scale stamped tin CNW streamlined passenger
                car bodies in beautiful factory lettered, baked paint.

                I only have the sides and roofs for a dome car, and observation car,
                and one or two coaches. I'd like to build them into a working set of
                cars.

                I have the formed and painted roofs for them. They sort of snap
                together.

                Might they be Varney ??? I think they are full length. The observation
                is missing the compound curved observation end and door. I have not a
                single standard end for the cars. I have nothing of the original
                floors, but that is no problem.

                I can make the missing parts. Getting some would be nice, but not
                critical enough to stop me.

                I don't see any mention of full-length CNW passenger cars from Varney
                when our posters are listing the trains sets they are aware of.

                Can anyone tell us who made these CNW passenger cars [kits] ???

                Best to Ya,
                Mike Bauers
                Milwaukee, Wi
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8355 From: erieberk Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Re: Red Ball Reefer Sides, Continued
                Will be adding Red Ball car sides here for Reefers having Steel
                Underbeams, and using Betterdorf Trucks.

                S-8 Bordens Cheese 40' Yw #10213 [1937]

                S-11 Pacific Fruit Express SP/UP 41' Yw #94358 [1946]

                S-13 Gerbers Baby Food 41' Wt w/2-tone Bl #1003 [1909]

                S-48 Sonoma Wines 40' Silver #6003 [1907]

                S-63 Merchants Despatch NYC 40' Wt #20683 [1936]

                S-72 Chicago & Northwestern 40' Yw #3755 [1907]

                S-82 Wilsons Milk 40' Yw #17500 [1932]

                S-90 Wilsons Meat 40' Yw #7554 [1916]

                S-97 Farmers Co-Op 40' Yw #6298 [1906]

                S-100 American Refrigerator trasit 40' Yw #21594 [1929]

                S-104 Libby Foods 40' Wt #1452 [1925]

                S-118 Green Bay & Western 41' Gray #9353 [1929]

                S-123 Hormell Food 40' Yw #803 [1913]

                S-150 National Dairy Despatch 40' Sv #8135 [1926]

                S-152 Michigan Alkali 40' Wt #1000 [1920]

                S-157 Bordens Fine Cheese 40' Rd, Wt & Bl #? [1937]

                S-169 Grand Union 39' Gn #10104 [1923]

                S-195 Budweiser Beer 36' Gn #2802 [1925]

                Red Ball Car Sides for Reefers having One-Piece Cast Frame, and using
                Bettendorf Trucks:

                S-10 ATSF Dry Ice 40' Sv #6010 [1931]

                S-25 Land-O-Lakes 40' Yw #6337 [1937]

                S-35 Blatz Beer 42' Yw #23120 [1916]

                S-79 Land-O-Smiles 40' Yw #105 [1923]

                S-115 Sunrise Onion Sets 40' Yw #3702 [1918]

                S-116 North American Despatch Frigicar 40' Yw #3554 [1927]

                S-158 St. Louis Refrigerator Car Co. 40' Wt #3190 [1915]

                S-167 Adophus Hotel 40' Wt #2198 [1906]

                S-181 Fruit Growers Express 41' Yw #31938 [1928]

                S-182 AT&SF 41' Or #16147 [1922]

                S-188 Pacific Fruit Express 41' Or # 26181 [1924]

                S-205 Great Northern (BIG Herald) 40' #73354 Yw [1968]

                Following, will be finish-up up Red Ball reefers, to include
                Billboard sides used for Truss Rod cars, and using Arch Bar OR
                Bettendorf trucks, plus, Express Reefers. Ray Wetzel
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8356 From: erieberk Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Re: Who made HO CNW HO tinplate?
                Mike, Without seeing them, these C&NW's sound like Blue Line from
                your description -- if they "snap" together. Blue Line first made
                their cars as a 3-piece body (roof and 2 sides), plus floor, that
                fitted together at the roof line. They then went to a one piece body
                (plus floor), similar to Varney's metal passenger cars. C&NW was one
                of their road names. Ray Wetzel



                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                >
                > I have three or four HO scale stamped tin CNW streamlined
                passenger
                > car bodies in beautiful factory lettered, baked paint.
                >
                > I only have the sides and roofs for a dome car, and observation
                car,
                > and one or two coaches. I'd like to build them into a working set
                of
                > cars.
                >
                > I have the formed and painted roofs for them. They sort of snap
                > together.
                >
                > Might they be Varney ??? I think they are full length. The
                observation
                > is missing the compound curved observation end and door. I have not
                a
                > single standard end for the cars. I have nothing of the original
                > floors, but that is no problem.
                >
                > I can make the missing parts. Getting some would be nice, but not
                > critical enough to stop me.
                >
                > I don't see any mention of full-length CNW passenger cars from
                Varney
                > when our posters are listing the trains sets they are aware of.
                >
                > Can anyone tell us who made these CNW passenger cars [kits] ???
                >
                > Best to Ya,
                > Mike Bauers
                > Milwaukee, Wi
                >
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8357 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: Re: Who made HO CNW HO tinplate?
                thanks Ray........

                I'll bet you're right!

                Can someone post or point me to a clean snapshot of the ends the Blue
                Line kits used? That would help me make my own pieces.

                Best to Ya,
                Mike Bauers
                Milwaukee, Wi


                On Jan 22, 2009, at 6:04 PM, erieberk wrote:

                > Mike, Without seeing them, these C&NW's sound like Blue Line from
                > your description -- if they "snap" together. Blue Line first made
                > their cars as a 3-piece body (roof and 2 sides), plus floor, that
                > fitted together at the roof line. They then went to a one piece body
                > (plus floor), similar to Varney's metal passenger cars. C&NW was one
                > of their road names. Ray Wetzel
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> I have three or four HO scale stamped tin CNW streamlined
                > passenger
                >> car bodies in beautiful factory lettered, baked paint.
                >>
                >> I only have the sides and roofs for a dome car, and observation
                > car,
                >> and one or two coaches. I'd like to build them into a working set
                > of
                >> cars.
                >>
                >> I have the formed and painted roofs for them. They sort of snap
                >> together.
                Group: vintageHO Message: 8358 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/22/2009
                Subject: C&NW passenger Cars
                Attachments :
                  Mike B,
                                        I was going to ask for a picture but I'm going to go out on a limb. I'm thinking you are describing Blue Line HO passenger cars. Pictures from my collection of a 9 car set included. If you need a close-up of a certain car to verify I will send. These would be full size cars in HO scale (80'). They are metal ,already baked enamel painted (could be called lithographed ??). The roof slides into the sides of the cars. I would have to look closer to see how metal floor attaches (having over 400 passenger cars I can't remember each one). These were kits you put together. The ends supplied were a piece of balsa wood you cut to shape. Very hard to fit to look nice. Would look nicer if some metal end of another manufacturer were fitted on the cars. I think I remember the dome was a separate piece  Trucks were kits you assembled that were made by Blue Line. I have a few extras if you need. They make a very nice looking set. You could buy Blue Line passenger cars in a number of Railroad names. They produced "shorties" too (scale 60' ?).
                             If this is what you have and want more detailed facts I can add to this.
                                                                          Jim
                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8359 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/22/2009
                  Subject: Re: Varney Meta lPassenger
                  Jim--I sort of rambled on the other parts to be certain we had the same cars.  I looked up ,in my files--show B&O, SP, IC, GN, and UP, with apparently PRR and SP "standardized Sunset" added later.  Trying to recall--the colors in question were black over yellow?    I had a string of the SO cars as a teenager.  gj 
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:16 PM
                  Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Meta lPassenger

                  Hi Glenn,
                     .       It is hard to write every detail in a long Email. In my email, to the
                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8360 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/22/2009
                  Subject: Re: Who made HO CNW HO tinplate?
                  Attachments :
                    I have an unbuilt original blue line here on my bench if you wanna come over
                    and look at it.

                    I don't know if you can tell much from the picture attached.

                    They didn't have ends. You got a flat piece of wood to cut to fit, and a
                    sponge runner full width diaphragm.

                    Don

                    Don Dellmann
                    don.dellmann@...
                    http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                    http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                    Owner
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...>
                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 6:15 PM
                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Who made HO CNW HO tinplate?


                    > thanks Ray........
                    >
                    > I'll bet you're right!
                    >
                    > Can someone post or point me to a clean snapshot of the ends the Blue
                    > Line kits used? That would help me make my own pieces.
                    >
                    > Best to Ya,
                    > Mike Bauers
                    > Milwaukee, Wi
                    >
                    >
                    > On Jan 22, 2009, at 6:04 PM, erieberk wrote:
                    >
                    >> Mike, Without seeing them, these C&NW's sound like Blue Line from
                    >> your description -- if they "snap" together. Blue Line first made
                    >> their cars as a 3-piece body (roof and 2 sides), plus floor, that
                    >> fitted together at the roof line. They then went to a one piece body
                    >> (plus floor), similar to Varney's metal passenger cars. C&NW was one
                    >> of their road names. Ray Wetzel
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                    >>>
                    >>> I have three or four HO scale stamped tin CNW streamlined
                    >> passenger
                    >>> car bodies in beautiful factory lettered, baked paint.
                    >>>
                    >>> I only have the sides and roofs for a dome car, and observation
                    >> car,
                    >>> and one or two coaches. I'd like to build them into a working set
                    >> of
                    >>> cars.
                    >>>
                    >>> I have the formed and painted roofs for them. They sort of snap
                    >>> together.
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8361 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/22/2009
                    Subject: Re: Varney Meta lPassenger
                    gj,
                                          No problem. I'm always worried I made a mistake writing the Email. My brain goes faster then my one finger typing. What I write seems OK to me but I miss things or don't write enough explanation. Nice "talking" to you.
                                                                                                     Jim
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Glenn476
                    Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 7:38 PM
                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Meta lPassenger

                    Jim--I sort of rambled on the other parts to be certain we had the same cars.  I looked up ,in my files--show B&O, SP, IC, GN, and UP, with apparently PRR and SP "standardized Sunset" added later.  Trying to recall--the colors in question were black over yellow?    I had a string of the SO cars as a teenager.  gj 
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:16 PM
                    Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Meta lPassenger

                    Hi Glenn,
                       .       It is hard to write every detail in a long Email. In my email, to the

                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8362 From: erieberk Date: 1/22/2009
                    Subject: Re: Varney Meta lPassenger
                    Glenn, A small omission, but you left out NYC. The SP models came in
                    both Daylight - Sunset (T&NO) and Golden State. I can't quite recall
                    either, but I thought C&NW was green over yellow. Ray W.



                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Jim--I sort of rambled on the other parts to be certain we had the
                    same cars. I looked up ,in my files--show B&O, SP, IC, GN, and UP,
                    with apparently PRR and SP "standardized Sunset" added later. Trying
                    to recall--the colors in question were black over yellow? I had a
                    string of the SO cars as a teenager. gj
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Jim Heckard
                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:16 PM
                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Meta lPassenger
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Glenn,
                    > . It is hard to write every detail in a long Email. In my
                    email, to the
                    >
                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8363 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/22/2009
                    Subject: Blue Line C&NW
                    Mike B,
                         Want to add to my Email and pictures. Those Blue Line cars came with the window material that was pre decorated and was a separate style for each car. The doors for the Baggage,Combine, etc, were a heavy cardboard already painted to match.
                         Again the ends of the cars were a piece of balsa that you cut to shape and very hard to fit properly. Best to find metal ends from other companies to fit. Sure looks better.
                                                                                                                  Jim
                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8364 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/22/2009
                    Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW

                    Blue Line had two different types of construction over the years.  These multi piece cars and a one piece sides and roof car with a wood floor.  Their sponge full width diaphragms still work.

                     

                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                     

                    From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard
                    Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:14 PM
                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW

                     

                    Mike B,

                         Want to add to my Email and pictures. Those Blue Line cars came with the window material that was pre decorated and was a separate style for each car. The doors for the Baggage,Combine, etc, were a heavy cardboard already painted to match.

                         Again the ends of the cars were a piece of balsa that you cut to shape and very hard to fit properly. Best to find metal ends from other companies to fit. Sure looks better.

                                                                                                                  Jim
                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8365 From: erieberk Date: 1/22/2009
                    Subject: Re: What Railroad If Any?
                    The small (tiny) kit number ("S-10, S-18, ect.) would be found on the
                    lower edge of the body near the wheel well opening, if this were a
                    Varney. In checking your photo against Varney's cars of similar
                    design, it looks like all the window cut outs match up in number,
                    position and size but that's not really conclusive. It is intriguing
                    though, even though I've never seen this paint scheme produced by
                    Varney, and I have all the sets just as Jim does.

                    Even though they closely resemble Varney, I'm wondering if they may
                    be Tenshodo. They are not IMP, even though IMP's cars came either
                    finished (factory painted and lettered) or just factory painted, but
                    IMP didn't offered smooth-side streamliners, just corregated sides.
                    But Tenshodo did make cars for IMP, and they also made smooth-side
                    cars -- I have a set of factory painted Tenshodo smooth-side shorty
                    cars in B&O. Now, if Tenshodo can make factory painted yet
                    unlettered cars for IMP, I don't see why they couldn't have marketed
                    their own unlettered smooth-side cars -- just a thought. Ray



                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "asleepy60" <asleepy60@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > First of all, thank you to those who responded to my question.
                    >
                    > I did look at the underside of the cars with a magnifying glass but
                    did
                    > not see any letters or numbers as was mentioned.
                    >
                    > The cars have a baked on enamel finish so they were not a repaint
                    by an
                    > individual. Cars are all metal and smooth sided. My guess is they
                    are
                    > 62 footers.
                    >
                    > The window areas are punched out. The window "glazing" is opaque
                    and I
                    > did not disassemble the car to see if it is plastic or some other
                    > material.
                    >
                    > I did notice that the extra coach was a little bit different from
                    the
                    > other three in that it has grab irons on each side of the roof
                    (total
                    > of 4 in all on the roof).
                    >
                    > No names or numbers on the sides. Plastic trucks with metal wheels.
                    > They are wired for lighting but don't illuminate. Could be that the
                    > post office damaged the bulbs when they smashed the package or
                    maybe
                    > the bulbs are just burned out.
                    >
                    > Have just acquired a 6 car set which has black roofs and dark green
                    > sides. These have wood floors and are in not such good shape as the
                    > first set. One would think that the color scheme is that of the
                    > Burlington Northern; but, of course, the Burlington and Great
                    Northern
                    > hadn't merged when this set was produced.
                    >
                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8366 From: erieberk Date: 1/22/2009
                    Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW
                    Hi Chuck, Yeah, I already covered both of Blue Line's construction
                    methods. On the Red Ball, are you entering all the data in the
                    spread sheet? I'll have one more installment on the reefers. Don't
                    know yet if I'll go further -- possibly, but not right away (its a
                    lot of work/time). When doing the ones today, I realized I forgot to
                    enter the colors in the last batch. I'll update those at the end.
                    Ray W.



                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Blue Line had two different types of construction over the years.
                    These
                    > multi piece cars and a one piece sides and roof car with a wood
                    floor.
                    > Their sponge full width diaphragms still work.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                    > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
                    On Behalf
                    > Of Jim Heckard
                    > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:14 PM
                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Mike B,
                    >
                    > Want to add to my Email and pictures. Those Blue Line cars
                    came with
                    > the window material that was pre decorated and was a separate style
                    for each
                    > car. The doors for the Baggage,Combine, etc, were a heavy cardboard
                    already
                    > painted to match.
                    >
                    > Again the ends of the cars were a piece of balsa that you cut
                    to shape
                    > and very hard to fit properly. Best to find metal ends from other
                    companies
                    > to fit. Sure looks better.
                    >
                    >
                    > Jim
                    >
                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8367 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/22/2009
                    Subject: Re: Blue Line C&NW
                    Attachments :

                      Hi Ray,

                      Yes, I did not read that email well enough.  Attached are photos of the one piece wrapper body with the wood ends I made and one with the diaphragm applied.  I have some of the earlier style also in IC and both styles the orange paint has attached it self to the paper instructions.  I will have to work on cleaning the paper off of the sides.

                       

                      I will get the Red Ball sheet you posted today loaded over the weekend.  If you want just do the Cat number and color for me to add.

                       

                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                       

                      From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                      Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:55 PM
                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW

                       

                      Hi Chuck, Yeah, I already covered both of Blue Line's construction
                      methods. On the Red Ball, are you entering all the data in the
                      spread sheet? I'll have one more installment on the reefers. Don't
                      know yet if I'll go further -- possibly, but not right away (its a
                      lot of work/time). When doing the ones today, I realized I forgot to
                      enter the colors in the last batch. I'll update those at the end.
                      Ray W.

                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..>
                      wrote:

                      >
                      > Blue Line had two different types of construction over the years.
                      These
                      > multi piece cars and a one piece sides and roof car with a wood
                      floor.
                      > Their sponge full width diaphragms still work.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                      > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > _____
                      >
                      > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                      [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com]
                      On Behalf
                      > Of Jim Heckard
                      > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:14 PM
                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                      > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Mike B,
                      >
                      > Want to add to my Email and pictures. Those Blue Line cars
                      came with
                      > the window material that was pre decorated and was a separate style
                      for each
                      > car. The doors for the Baggage,Combine, etc, were a heavy cardboard
                      already
                      > painted to match.
                      >
                      > Again the ends of the cars were a piece of balsa that you cut
                      to shape
                      > and very hard to fit properly. Best to find metal ends from other
                      companies
                      > to fit. Sure looks better.
                      >
                      >
                      > Jim
                      >
                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8368 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/22/2009
                      Subject: Re: What Railroad If Any?
                      I think the Tenshodo cars were brass--so a magnet would be a quick test for
                      Varney gj
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 5:46 PM
                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What Railroad If Any?


                      > The small (tiny) kit number ("S-10, S-18, ect.) would be found on the
                      > lower edge of the body near the wheel well opening, if this were a
                      > Varney. In checking your photo against Varney's cars of similar
                      > design, it looks like all the window cut outs match up in number,
                      > position and size but that's not really conclusive. It is intriguing
                      > though, even though I've never seen this paint scheme produced by
                      > Varney, and I have all the sets just as Jim does.
                      >
                      > Even though they closely resemble Varney, I'm wondering if they may
                      > be Tenshodo. They are not IMP, even though IMP's cars came either
                      > finished (factory painted and lettered) or just factory painted, but
                      > IMP didn't offered smooth-side streamliners, just corregated sides.
                      > But Tenshodo did make cars for IMP, and they also made smooth-side
                      > cars -- I have a set of factory painted Tenshodo smooth-side shorty
                      > cars in B&O. Now, if Tenshodo can make factory painted yet
                      > unlettered cars for IMP, I don't see why they couldn't have marketed
                      > their own unlettered smooth-side cars -- just a thought. Ray
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "asleepy60" <asleepy60@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> First of all, thank you to those who responded to my question.
                      >>
                      >> I did look at the underside of the cars with a magnifying glass but
                      > did
                      >> not see any letters or numbers as was mentioned.
                      >>
                      >> The cars have a baked on enamel finish so they were not a repaint
                      > by an
                      >> individual. Cars are all metal and smooth sided. My guess is they
                      > are
                      >> 62 footers.
                      >>
                      >> The window areas are punched out. The window "glazing" is opaque
                      > and I
                      >> did not disassemble the car to see if it is plastic or some other
                      >> material.
                      >>
                      >> I did notice that the extra coach was a little bit different from
                      > the
                      >> other three in that it has grab irons on each side of the roof
                      > (total
                      >> of 4 in all on the roof).
                      >>
                      >> No names or numbers on the sides. Plastic trucks with metal wheels.
                      >> They are wired for lighting but don't illuminate. Could be that the
                      >> post office damaged the bulbs when they smashed the package or
                      > maybe
                      >> the bulbs are just burned out.
                      >>
                      >> Have just acquired a 6 car set which has black roofs and dark green
                      >> sides. These have wood floors and are in not such good shape as the
                      >> first set. One would think that the color scheme is that of the
                      >> Burlington Northern; but, of course, the Burlington and Great
                      > Northern
                      >> hadn't merged when this set was produced.
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1909 - Release Date: 1/22/2009
                      7:08 AM
                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8369 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/22/2009
                      Subject: Re: Blue Line C&NW
                      Definitely Illinois Central and not Varney.   gj
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 6:12 PM
                      Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW

                      Hi Ray,

                      Yes, I did not read that email well enough.  Attached are photos of the one piece wrapper body with the wood ends I made and one with the diaphragm applied.  I have some of the earlier style also in IC and both styles the orange paint has attached it self to the paper instructions.  I will have to work on cleaning the paper off of the sides.

                       

                      I will get the Red Ball sheet you posted today loaded over the weekend.  If you want just do the Cat number and color for me to add.

                       

                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                       

                      From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                      Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:55 PM
                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW

                       

                      Hi Chuck, Yeah, I already covered both of Blue Line's construction
                      methods. On the Red Ball, are you entering all the data in the
                      spread sheet? I'll have one more installment on the reefers. Don't
                      know yet if I'll go further -- possibly, but not right away (its a
                      lot of work/time). When doing the ones today, I realized I forgot to
                      enter the colors in the last batch. I'll update those at the end.
                      Ray W.

                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Blue Line had two different types of construction over the years.
                      These
                      > multi piece cars and a one piece sides and roof car with a wood
                      floor.
                      > Their sponge full width diaphragms still work.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                      > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > _____
                      >
                      > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com]
                      On Behalf
                      > Of Jim Heckard
                      > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:14 PM
                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                      > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Mike B,
                      >
                      > Want to add to my Email and pictures. Those Blue Line cars
                      came with
                      > the window material that was pre decorated and was a separate style
                      for each
                      > car. The doors for the Baggage,Combine, etc, were a heavy cardboard
                      already
                      > painted to match.
                      >
                      > Again the ends of the cars were a piece of balsa that you cut
                      to shape
                      > and very hard to fit properly. Best to find metal ends from other
                      companies
                      > to fit. Sure looks better.
                      >
                      >
                      > Jim
                      >


                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1909 - Release Date: 1/22/2009 7:08 AM
                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8370 From: fydill Date: 1/23/2009
                      Subject: Re: Penn Line archive photos
                      Wow, what interesting photos. Did your father acquire them at the Penn
                      Line auction? I hope that you will post additional photos.
                      Frank Dill, Boyertown, PA.
                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jimwatermanboeing" <Watermaj@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Folks,
                      >
                      > My name is Jim Waterman, son of Vince Waterman, who ran Trackside
                      > Specialties from the 1950's through 2005.
                      >
                      > One piece of vintage HO history that most folks are not aware of is
                      > the disposition of Penn Line's assets after they folded.
                      >
                      > There was a final auction of all goods. At the time there was
                      > substantial quantity of completed and incompleted trains.
                      >
                      > There were 3 main buyers at the auction - Bowser, who bought the
                      > tooling for most of the trains, Bernie Paul/AHM, who bought most of
                      > the ready to run trains and remarketed them, and my father, who bought
                      > most of the parts, including built up mechanisms, bins of parts for
                      > all the PL engines then in production, and allsorts.
                      >
                      > Bowser went on to reproduce the steam engines, and has improved them
                      > over the years. My father, sold what he called 'Mix and Match' kits,
                      > usually with PL mechanisms and Cary boilers. He also provided
                      > instruction sheets that enabled one to use the PL mechanisms under
                      > Varney and Mantua steam boilers as well.
                      >
                      > What was left of the residual parts were sold in the mid 1980's. He
                      > passed away in 2005, having moved solidly to O gauge, producing his
                      > own line of parts, and reselling brass parts from Westside, Sunset and
                      > eventually buying up what was left of Lobaugh.
                      >
                      > I have posted a few archival photos that I have (there are many more)
                      > in the photos section under 'Penn Line Archives'
                      >
                      > As I get time, I'll add to the the list.
                      >
                      > Regards
                      >
                      > Jim
                      >
                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8371 From: Chris B Date: 1/23/2009
                      Subject: maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item number: 2
                      Attachments :
                        Sean, months ago, I enjoyed a discussion about the source of some heavy old cast e unit trucks,
                        this posting on ebay would seem to be the same trucks but with shell.
                        Would this be enough to identify the maker ?
                         
                        "From the Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle  Item number: 220348040977"
                         
                        Chris B.
                         
                         
                         
                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8372 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/23/2009
                        Subject: Re: maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item numbe
                        Hi Chriss,
                         
                        I just sod these brass trucks: 370142596406
                         
                        MADE IN TOKYO JAPAN - TETSUDO MOKEI-SHA
                        They went with this engine: 370144073041
                         
                        The instructions were included.
                         
                        The trucks you are showing me look to be the same as the ones on this one I just sold. I do not remember right now the ones you purchased, though I do know I can find the pic if I need to..
                         
                        Sean

                         
                        From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                        Subject: [vintageHO] maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item number: 220348040977
                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 11:50 AM

                        Sean, months ago, I enjoyed a discussion about the source of some heavy old cast e unit trucks,
                        this posting on ebay would seem to be the same trucks but with shell.
                        Would this be enough to identify the maker ?
                         
                        "From the Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle  Item number: 220348040977"
                         
                        Chris B.
                         
                         
                         
                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8373 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/23/2009
                        Subject: Re: maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item numbe
                        Looking at it closer, the sideframes are close, but still different... possiblly the same maker though..
                         
                        Sean

                        --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                        From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item number: 220348040977
                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 12:12 PM

                        Hi Chriss,
                         
                        I just sod these brass trucks: 370142596406
                         
                        MADE IN TOKYO JAPAN - TETSUDO MOKEI-SHA
                        They went with this engine: 370144073041
                         
                        The instructions were included.
                         
                        The trucks you are showing me look to be the same as the ones on this one I just sold. I do not remember right now the ones you purchased, though I do know I can find the pic if I need to..
                         
                        Sean

                         
                        From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
                        Subject: [vintageHO] maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item number: 220348040977
                        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                        Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 11:50 AM

                        Sean, months ago, I enjoyed a discussion about the source of some heavy old cast e unit trucks,
                        this posting on ebay would seem to be the same trucks but with shell.
                        Would this be enough to identify the maker ?
                         
                        "From the Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle  Item number: 220348040977"
                         
                        Chris B.
                         
                         
                         
                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8374 From: Chris B Date: 1/23/2009
                        Subject: Re: maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item numbe
                        Attachments :
                          I can find the pix of what I got from you if needed, but don't bother...
                          I'm fairly convinced,
                          not because of the side frames, because they do look slightly different,
                          but because of the gear slots cut into the truck bottom body, and
                          especially the little grease cups under the drive gears,
                          those are identical, and to my knowledge, unusual.
                           
                          There's another TETSUDO MOKEI listing I noticed since...
                          different side frames as well, but the flywheel looks similar to another pair of 4 wheel trucks I also got from you, must be a year ago now.
                           

                          International BRASS E7A Powered TetsudoMokei Runs Well

                          		Item number: 150321939436

                          so maybe both pairs might be from TETSUDO MOKEI .
                           

                           
                          From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:14:58 PM
                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item number: 220348040977

                          Looking at it closer, the sideframes are close, but still different... possiblly the same maker though..
                           
                          Sean

                          --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                          From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item number: 220348040977
                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                          Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 12:12 PM

                          Hi Chriss,
                           
                          I just sod these brass trucks: 370142596406
                           
                          MADE IN TOKYO JAPAN - TETSUDO MOKEI-SHA
                          They went with this engine: 370144073041
                           
                          The instructions were included.
                           
                          The trucks you are showing me look to be the same as the ones on this one I just sold. I do not remember right now the ones you purchased, though I do know I can find the pic if I need to..
                           
                          Sean

                           
                          From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
                          Subject: [vintageHO] maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item number: 220348040977
                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                          Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 11:50 AM

                          Sean, months ago, I enjoyed a discussion about the source of some heavy old cast e unit trucks,
                          this posting on ebay would seem to be the same trucks but with shell.
                          Would this be enough to identify the maker ?
                           
                          "From the Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle  Item number: 220348040977"
                           
                          Chris B.
                           
                           
                           
                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8375 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/23/2009
                          Subject: Re: maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item numbe
                          I think I have most of the body for one of those. [My shell is
                          missing the nose.]

                          Best to ya'
                          Mike Bauers
                          Milwaukee Wi, USA


                          On Jan 23, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Sean Naylor wrote:

                          > Hi Chriss,
                          >
                          > I just sold these brass trucks: 370142596406
                          >
                          > MADE IN TOKYO JAPAN - TETSUDO MOKEI-SHA
                          >
                          >
                          > They went with this engine: 370144073041
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The instructions were included.
                          >
                          > The trucks you are showing me look to be the same as the ones on
                          > this one I just sold. I do not remember right now the ones you
                          > purchased, though I do know I can find the pic if I need to..
                          >
                          > Sean
                          >
                          >
                          > From: Chris B
                          >
                          > Sean, months ago, I enjoyed a discussion about the source of some
                          > heavy old cast e unit trucks,
                          > this posting on ebay would seem to be the same trucks but with shell.
                          > Would this be enough to identify the maker ?
                          >
                          > "From the Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item
                          > number: 220348040977"
                          >
                          > Chris B.
                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8376 From: Ted Walton Date: 1/23/2009
                          Subject: Re: HO Trains(Collecting) - What about accessories?
                          OK, some HO trains (appears to be mostly engines) are collectible (
                          and sometime Valuable). But what about HO accessories? Operating
                          railside equipment (coal loaders. barrel loaders, transfer
                          tables,etc.), signals, buildings, people, bridges, etc. - anything
                          else someone might put on an HO layout besides the trains? Many of
                          these items are collectible ( and sometimes valuable) in at lease 0
                          and S gauge.

                          Ted Walton


                          --
                          No virus found in this outgoing message.
                          Checked by AVG.
                          Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.9/1900 - Release Date: 1/18/2009 12:11 PM
                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8377 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/23/2009
                          Subject: Re: HO Trains(Collecting) - What about accessories?
                          Some guys don't even bother with that stuff..
                           
                          Me, I like to scratch build and kitbash my scenery and accessories. The layout I just purchased is over 30 years old and has never seen a scrap of scenery except for bridges, engine house and a turntable. (all scratch built and very nice I might add).  Perfect for me because track work and wiring are my least favorite activity. Not going to pay the $150 going rate for the McD's though..
                           
                          There is a guy with a huge layout ~15 minutes from my home. He has track work all over his large basement (~30x30 in size). One small strewtch he has one small stretch of about 8-10 houses. Beyond that, again, not a scrap of scenery. His layout is over 40 years old. 
                           
                          Sean
                           


                          --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Ted Walton <trwalton@...> wrote:
                          From: Ted Walton <trwalton@...>
                          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains(Collecting) - What about accessories?
                          To: "vintageHO-yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                          Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 1:12 PM

                          OK, some HO trains (appears to be mostly engines) are collectible (
                          and sometime Valuable). But what about HO accessories? Operating
                          railside equipment (coal loaders. barrel loaders, transfer
                          tables,etc.) , signals, buildings, people, bridges, etc. - anything
                          else someone might put on an HO layout besides the trains? Many of
                          these items are collectible ( and sometimes valuable) in at lease 0
                          and S gauge.

                          Ted Walton

                          --
                          No virus found in this outgoing message.
                          Checked by AVG.
                          Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.9/1900 - Release Date: 1/18/2009 12:11 PM
                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8378 From: Mike Sloane Date: 1/23/2009
                          Subject: Re: HO Trains(Collecting) - What about accessories?
                          Ah, the famous "Plywood Central RR". In my case, I have all the
                          trackwork done, bridges in, and the buildings built and placed more or
                          less where they should be. But I still have only really done about 5% of
                          the finished "ground". But I intend to complete it just as soon as I get
                          a round tuit.

                          <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/>

                          Mike

                          Sean Naylor wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Some guys don't even bother with that stuff..
                          >
                          > Me, I like to scratch build and kitbash my scenery and accessories. The
                          > layout I just purchased is over 30 years old and has never seen a scrap
                          > of scenery except for bridges, engine house and a turntable. (all
                          > scratch built and very nice I might add). Perfect for me because track
                          > work and wiring are my least favorite activity. Not going to pay the
                          > $150 going rate for the McD's though..
                          >
                          > There is a guy with a huge layout ~15 minutes from my home. He has track
                          > work all over his large basement (~30x30 in size). One small strewtch he
                          > has one small stretch of about 8-10 houses. Beyond that, again, not a
                          > scrap of scenery. His layout is over 40 years old.
                          >
                          > Sean
                          >
                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8379 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/23/2009
                          Subject: Re: HO Trains(Collecting) - What about accessories?
                          thinking of an "accessory" that is rarely if ever seen--I recall a
                          vacuum-formed styrene "layout" that was basically a folded figure "8" that
                          you added snap track to--anyone ever run across one? I'd like to find one
                          and use it for an HOn3 display. gj
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Ted Walton" <trwalton@...>
                          To: "vintageHO-yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 10:12 AM
                          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HO Trains(Collecting) - What about accessories?


                          > OK, some HO trains (appears to be mostly engines) are collectible (
                          > and sometime Valuable). But what about HO accessories? Operating
                          > railside equipment (coal loaders. barrel loaders, transfer
                          > tables,etc.), signals, buildings, people, bridges, etc. - anything
                          > else someone might put on an HO layout besides the trains? Many of
                          > these items are collectible ( and sometimes valuable) in at lease 0
                          > and S gauge.
                          >
                          > Ted Walton
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                          > Checked by AVG.
                          > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.9/1900 - Release Date: 1/18/2009
                          > 12:11 PM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                          Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                          Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1911 - Release Date: 1/23/2009
                          7:28 AM
                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8380 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/23/2009
                          Subject: Re: HO Trains(Collecting) - What about accessories?
                          --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Ted Walton <trwalton@...> wrote:
                          > OK, some HO trains (appears to be mostly engines) are
                          > collectible (
                          > and sometime Valuable). But what about HO accessories?
                          > Operating
                          > railside equipment (coal loaders. barrel loaders, transfer
                          > tables,etc.), signals, buildings, people, bridges, etc. -
                          > anything
                          > else someone might put on an HO layout besides the trains?
                          > Many of
                          > these items are collectible ( and sometimes valuable) in at
                          > lease 0
                          > and S gauge.

                          I think most such items fall into the Toy category. HO has, IMHO, mostly been the domain of scale modelers and it seems to me that, with the exception of the small batch of Lionel and the Tyco offerings, not much has been offered in this scale with such items compared to S and O.
                          OTOH, limited edition kits like Fine Scale Miniatures and South River Modelworks, command skyrocketing prices once their respective manufacturers sell out. I paid $400 for one of the SRM Stone Roundhouse kits about 12 years ago, well above its original selling price.

                          Rick Jones
                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8381 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/23/2009
                          Subject: Re: HO Trains(Collecting) - What about accessories?
                          My table top is flat black as though it were covered by cinders.  I have four ovals surrounding many yard tracks and numerous curved switches.  I can run one train back and forth through all four ovals and back or I can run 3 or 4 trains, depending upon whether I feel like doing any switching.  The inside oval can be used as a drill track or a running track.  My buildings are yard buildings and coal facilities.  Most of my cars are hoppers.  I usually run a through freight, a through passenger (because I never finished the passenger yard) and coal trains, loaded or empty.  I run very few diesels and I usually run them with friction style track cleaning cars.  Scenery and main lines are in my imagination.  Most of my locos are steam... 2 switchers and large road locomotives from 4-8-4 to articulateds. 

                          We do what we can with what we have where we are...  My son and I built it while he was a teen...  He is now 47.  In the past 30 years it has not seen much use but soon it will again.
                          Most of my train time is spent repairing for others, reading, watching videos of steam locos and dreaming.  Trains are my escape from real world stresses...  Now where can we get round tuits so I can get back to the layout?

                          Don in VA
                          ===========================================================
                          Mike Sloane wrote:

                          Ah, the famous "Plywood Central RR". In my case, I have all the
                          trackwork done, bridges in, and the buildings built and placed more or
                          less where they should be. But I still have only really done about 5% of
                          the finished "ground". But I intend to complete it just as soon as I get
                          a round tuit.

                          <http://public. fotki.com/ mikesloane/ model_railroad/>

                          Mike

                          Sean Naylor wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Some guys don't even bother with that stuff..
                          >
                          > Me, I like to scratch build and kitbash my scenery and accessories. The
                          > layout I just purchased is over 30 years old and has never seen a scrap
                          > of scenery except for bridges, engine house and a turntable. (all
                          > scratch built and very nice I might add). Perfect for me because track
                          > work and wiring are my least favorite activity. Not going to pay the
                          > $150 going rate for the McD's though..
                          >
                          > There is a guy with a huge layout ~15 minutes from my home. He has track
                          > work all over his large basement (~30x30 in size). One small strewtch he
                          > has one small stretch of about 8-10 houses. Beyond that, again, not a
                          > scrap of scenery. His layout is over 40 years old.
                          >
                          > Sean
                          >

                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8382 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 1/24/2009
                          Subject: Re: Penn Line archive photos
                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "fydill" <fydill@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Wow, what interesting photos. Did your father acquire them at the Penn
                          > Line auction? I hope that you will post additional photos.
                          > Frank Dill, Boyertown, PA.


                          Yes, Frank

                          My father acquired a large group of photos at the auction, and they
                          were in a file cabinet from that time until 2005 when I cleaned out my
                          dad's basement. I can remember thumbing through them as a kid, and
                          didn't have the heart to throw them away.

                          There are pretty large groups of photos of many of their products,
                          some more interesting than others. Most are 8 by 10 inches.

                          I will be posting more as I get time. I'll post a new note when I add
                          them.

                          I probably have another 30 or so that are worth posting.

                          So you are from Boyertown - were you associated in any way with Penn
                          Line back in day?

                          Another member of the group asked if any of the buildings they were in
                          are still in existance - do you know?

                          Regards

                          Jim
                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8383 From: fydill Date: 1/24/2009
                          Subject: Re: Penn Line archive photos
                          For the most part, all of the buildings associated with Penn Line
                          still exist with the exception of 41 N. Reading Ave. which was an
                          apartment house since torn down to make a parking lot. This was the
                          official office and apartment of one of the partners at the time the
                          Crusader was marketed.
                          The building shown in the photos that you posted was at the rear of
                          Carvers Dairy on S. Chestnut St. It was basically a garage where the
                          three founders did their first castings. After a big stink was raised
                          when they tried doing these castings in the private home of Abe
                          Mercer which was a side by side double.
                          The first real factory at 35 S. Franklin St. was later converted
                          into three town houses which still stand.
                          The final factory on S. Washington St. behind Sugg Chevrolet
                          also still stands.
                          My Grandfather Sands owned a hobby and sporting goods store
                          where Bob Faust future president of Penn Line worked at the time of
                          Penn Line's founding. My father was the first to purchase Penn Line
                          stock when the company went public.
                          I really look forward to seeing more photos.




                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jimwatermanboeing" <Watermaj@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "fydill" <fydill@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Wow, what interesting photos. Did your father acquire them at the
                          Penn
                          > > Line auction? I hope that you will post additional photos.
                          > > Frank Dill, Boyertown, PA.
                          >
                          >
                          > Yes, Frank
                          >
                          > My father acquired a large group of photos at the auction, and they
                          > were in a file cabinet from that time until 2005 when I cleaned out
                          my
                          > dad's basement. I can remember thumbing through them as a kid, and
                          > didn't have the heart to throw them away.
                          >
                          > There are pretty large groups of photos of many of their products,
                          > some more interesting than others. Most are 8 by 10 inches.
                          >
                          > I will be posting more as I get time. I'll post a new note when I
                          add
                          > them.
                          >
                          > I probably have another 30 or so that are worth posting.
                          >
                          > So you are from Boyertown - were you associated in any way with Penn
                          > Line back in day?
                          >
                          > Another member of the group asked if any of the buildings they were
                          in
                          > are still in existance - do you know?
                          >
                          > Regards
                          >
                          > Jim
                          >
                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8384 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/25/2009
                          Subject: Blue Line "Shorties"
                          Attachments :
                                 The other night there was lot of discussion about Blue Line full size (85') Passenger cars. Since it has settled down a little I was wondering if people know Blue Line made shorty Passenger Cars. I think they would represent  60'. I have sent a few pictures with this message to show what I have.
                                   This is a mint 3 car set that came in one box. There is what looks a little like a combine with no doors, a coach and an observation. They are metal factory painted (baked enamel) like the big cars. The cars are already assembled. The have 2 sides and a roof that are fitted together (Sorry Chuck my mistake for not looking. Not one piece). The metal bottoms are already spot welded on. They are painted for the Union Pacific. I don't know if any other road name produced in the SHORTY type. The kit contains pieces of wood along with wooden dowels to finish off detail to the cars which are wrapped in a waxed paper for protection. A large loop of copper wire to make handrails included. Unlike the larger cars where you have a heavy piece of balsa to make and fit the ends this kit has squares of a plywood like wood to make the ends. The odd part is that there are plans but they are for the 85' cars. There are no trucks with this kit.
                                   Just to add a little more info to the discussion.
                                                                                       Jim
                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8385 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/25/2009
                            Subject: Re: Penn Line archive photos
                               Frank D, Jim W,
                                             Want to add some neat little items to the Penn Line pictures and discussion. These were related to me by a good friend from Boyertown, Bill Morrison,  and a dedicated Penn Line collector who knew the owners personally.
                                             He has related to me that the Penn Line building at 41 North Reading Ave was used as a mailing address only. Also that the garage rented from Carvers dairy, as told by Abe Mercer,  was so cold that they wrapped their shoes in newspaper and put boots on to keep warm.
                                               Bill knows a lot of the Penn Line history and was present for a lot of what took place. he has an extensive Penn Line collection of trains and memorabilia. He was even presented with the first GG-1 set that PL produced. He saw the casting equipment when it came for the GG-1 and knew the person who created it. there is so much more but he also is a great source of Penn Line history.
                                                                                                                     Jim
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: fydill
                            Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 9:17 PM
                            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line archive photos

                            For the most part, all of the buildings associated with Penn Line
                            still exist with the exception of 41 N. Reading Ave. which was an
                            apartment house since torn down to make a parking lot. This was the
                            official office and apartment of one of the partners at the time the
                            Crusader was marketed.
                            The building shown in the photos that you posted was at the rear of
                            Carvers Dairy on S. Chestnut St. It was basically a garage where the
                            three founders did their first castings. After a big stink was raised
                            when they tried doing these castings in the private home of Abe
                            Mercer which was a side by side double.
                            The first real factory at 35 S. Franklin St. was later converted
                            into three town houses which still stand.
                            The final factory on S. Washington St. behind Sugg Chevrolet
                            also still stands.
                            My Grandfather Sands owned a hobby and sporting goods store
                            where Bob Faust future president of Penn Line worked at the time of
                            Penn Line's founding. My father was the first to purchase Penn Line
                            stock when the company went public.
                            I really look forward to seeing more photos.

                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jimwatermanboeing" <Watermaj@.. .>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "fydill" <fydill@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Wow, what interesting photos. Did your father acquire them at the
                            Penn
                            > > Line auction? I hope that you will post additional photos.
                            > > Frank Dill, Boyertown, PA.
                            >
                            >
                            > Yes, Frank
                            >
                            > My father acquired a large group of photos at the auction, and they
                            > were in a file cabinet from that time until 2005 when I cleaned out
                            my
                            > dad's basement. I can remember thumbing through them as a kid, and
                            > didn't have the heart to throw them away.
                            >
                            > There are pretty large groups of photos of many of their products,
                            > some more interesting than others. Most are 8 by 10 inches.
                            >
                            > I will be posting more as I get time. I'll post a new note when I
                            add
                            > them.
                            >
                            > I probably have another 30 or so that are worth posting.
                            >
                            > So you are from Boyertown - were you associated in any way with Penn
                            > Line back in day?
                            >
                            > Another member of the group asked if any of the buildings they were
                            in
                            > are still in existance - do you know?
                            >
                            > Regards
                            >
                            > Jim
                            >
                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8386 From: Roger Aultman Date: 1/25/2009
                            Subject: Re: Blue Line "Shorties"
                            I had a set like that came from Americas Hobby Center, no box, no plans of parts.  Glad to finally find out who made them.   Roger Aultman
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 10:05 AM
                            Subject: [vintageHO] Blue Line "Shorties"

                                 The other night there was lot of discussion about Blue Line full size (85') Passenger cars. Since it has settled down a little I was wondering if people know Blue Line made shorty Passenger Cars. I think they would represent  60'. I have sent a few pictures with this message to show what I have.
                                   This is a mint 3 car set that came in one box. There is what looks a little like a combine with no doors, a coach and an observation. They are metal factory painted (baked enamel) like the big cars. The cars are already assembled. The have 2 sides and a roof that are fitted together (Sorry Chuck my mistake for not looking. Not one piece). The metal bottoms are already spot welded on. They are painted for the Union Pacific. I don't know if any other road name produced in the SHORTY type. The kit contains pieces of wood along with wooden dowels to finish off detail to the cars which are wrapped in a waxed paper for protection. A large loop of copper wire to make handrails included. Unlike the larger cars where you have a heavy piece of balsa to make and fit the ends this kit has squares of a plywood like wood to make the ends. The odd part is that there are plans but they are for the 85' cars. There are no trucks with this kit.
                                   Just to add a little more info to the discussion.
                                                                                       Jim
                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8387 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/25/2009
                            Subject: Being a pest.......
                            Guys,

                            I've got this new cnc-cutter that works in a bunch of materials including 0.040 styrene and thinner, a wide range of card and some balsa and sheet metal is also usable with it. It cuts and embosses.......

                            I stumbled across this really great mirror finish, reflective silver art-card that  would be a breeze to run through the machine.

                            While it wouldn't me running vintage models, made then, I sure could make  stuff of that era.........

                            I don't know how well this stuff would emboss to anything like a  corrugated side model, but it sure would work well in flat paneled or curved sides model construction.

                            I'm looking for an idea or two......... a vintage era train of chrome Pendulum passenger cars is  one that pops first into my mind. I'm not easily coming up with what seems to better ideas.

                            Any wild thoughts for modeling with this chrome sheet ???

                            Best to ya'
                            Mike Bauers
                            Milwaukee Wi, USA
                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8388 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/25/2009
                            Subject: Ambroid Passenger Kits
                            I have a number of the Ambroid passenger car kits that are based on B&M prototypes, including one of the 3-in-1 kits. I'd like to find interior plans for these for adding the seats, etc., if anybody knows a source for these.
                            I'm especially curious about the interior layout of the combine work caboose and how access to the cupola was accomplished with other stuff located below.

                            Rick Jones
                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8389 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 1/25/2009
                            Subject: Re: Being a pest.......
                            Art Deco signs

                            Chrome store fronts

                            busses or other chromed vehicles

                            modern trailers (as in tractor-trailer truck)

                            Willard

                            At 12:08 PM 1/25/2009, you wrote:
                            Guys,

                            I've got this new cnc-cutter that works in a bunch of materials including 0.040 styrene and thinner, a wide range of card and some balsa and sheet metal is also usable with it. It cuts and embosses.......

                            I stumbled across this really great mirror finish, reflective silver art-card that  would be a breeze to run through the machine.

                            While it wouldn't me running vintage models, made then, I sure could make  stuff of that era.........

                            I don't know how well this stuff would emboss to anything like a  corrugated side model, but it sure would work well in flat paneled or curved sides model construction.

                            I'm looking for an idea or two......... a vintage era train of chrome Pendulum passenger cars is  one that pops first into my mind. I'm not easily coming up with what seems to better ideas.

                            Any wild thoughts for modeling with this chrome sheet ???

                            Best to ya'
                            Mike Bauers
                            Milwaukee Wi, USA
                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8390 From: Chris B Date: 1/25/2009
                            Subject: Re: Being a pest.......
                            Attachments :
                              Mike, if I can offer one small personal project that might be suitable...embossing fluted car sides, yes to model stainless steel, but let me explain why I can't just get normal fluted sides already.

                              there are countless models of Budd RDCs, coaches, and the Zephyr.  their fluted stainless steel sides are available  over in every scale.

                              But Budd did a few predecessor projects with Micheline; self-propelled stainless steel railcars with metal flanges and rubber tires, and to my point, fluted stainless sides with a much wider flute. 

                              The Lafayette was the first, a demo model built in France and exhibited in the US in the early 30's.
                              The Reading bought the first one, failure, then the PRR bought a linked pair, bigger failure, then the Texas and Pacific bought the final pair, and after it failed, that was it till the Zephyr and steel wheels and real engines.  The Zephyr coach designer reduced the fluting size, making more but narrower flutes, and for other reasons of course, the rest was history. 

                              here's a link to a 1 pg summary w pictures of all the pre-Zephyr models:
                              http://emdx.org/rail/metro/principeE.html


                              I model the Washington & Old Dominion in the '40s, and during WWII, when the W&OD had to reinstitute passenger service, the PRR pair were leased and then bought.  The PRR had replaced the engine/six wheel steel/rubber tire trucks with normal Brill gas/electric trucks, and painted the stainless fluted sides tuscan, but the pair labored for a short while on the W&OD with much hoopla and derisive abuse, till they were parked in Rosslyn yard till scrapping in the late forties.

                              I have multiple Budd patent drawings giving fluting dimensions.  I have photos, and hi res scans of large format negatives. I have multiple PRR drawings from before and after rebuilding with normal trucks and engine, a modification that include a bizarre rooftop radiator that looks like a vista cab....

                              I'd only be looking for raw embossed fluted sheets with the appropriate width, after that, I think I can do all the rest.
                              but it might be a modest trial of the process.

                              I'm not in any hurry, and I'm open to any other method for scratch making the fluted sides, but hey, since you asked, I thought it couldn't hurt to ask! <g>
                              Chris B

                              From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 12:08:20 PM
                              Subject: [vintageHO] Being a pest.......

                              Guys,


                              I've got this new cnc-cutter that works in a bunch of materials includin g 0.040 styrene and thinner, a wide range of card and some balsa and sheet metal is also usable with it. It cuts and embosses.... ...

                              I stumbled across this really great mirror finish, reflective silver  art-card that  would be a breeze to run through the machine.

                              While it wouldn't me running vintage models, made then, I sure could make  stuff of that era.........

                              I don't know how well this stuff would emboss to anything like a  corrugated side model, but it sure would work well in flat paneled or curved sides model construction.

                              I'm looking for an idea or two......... a vintage era train of chrome Pendulum passenger cars is  one that pops first into my mind. I'm not easily coming up with what seems to better ideas.

                              Any wild thoughts for modeling with this chrome sheet ???

                              Best to ya'
                              Mike Bauers
                              Milwaukee Wi, USA
                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8391 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 1/25/2009
                              Subject: More Penn Line Archives photos
                              Had some time and have scanned and uploaded another 15-20 Penn Line
                              archive photos.

                              Folks seem particularly interested in the people working there, so
                              I've biased my uploads to that effect.

                              If any of you can positively identify the people in these photos, send
                              a note, and I'll update in the descriptions.

                              Enjoy.

                              Jim
                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8392 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 1/25/2009
                              Subject: Trackside Specialties Prototype Photos
                              I have set up a new Photo Album called Trackside Specialties, a
                              business my father Vince Waterman ran from the late 1950's through
                              2005. There are a few photos posted of some of his engines.

                              In the late 50's through 1966 or so, he produced short run 'custom
                              built' engines, mostly PRR prototype.

                              Most were built in lots of 50 or less, and used brass construction.
                              Some used mechanisms from donor engines (like the P5 which for a while
                              used an International Models P5A modified chassis. Others used Andeco
                              mechanisms, which were machined from brass and very well made.

                              Check Jim Heckard's photos for some really nice examples of finished
                              TS locos. I'm pretty sure that these were once in my father's personal
                              collection, which was sold as a set in the 1980's when he went whole
                              hog into O scale.

                              I've included photos of the prototypes as well as a shot or two of the
                              L6 that was never produced, with the exception of this prototype.
                              Castings were made, but a suitable mechanism was never able to be
                              produced, so the castings were sold off to folks who updated their
                              Alco Models L6's. Wish I had kept a set for my engine.

                              Regards and enjoy

                              Jim Waterman
                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8393 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/25/2009
                              Subject: Trackside Specialties
                              Attachments :
                                Jim W and all,
                                             I'm sending some other pictures of TS Electrics because I am not good with the camera. Don't know how good pictures in album show up. Use as you feel.
                                       No 1   O-1      20 pcs
                                       No 2   P-5a    48 pcs.  I also have a mint kit with Andeco drive that had plans that are on the HOseeker site.
                                       No 3   B-1      50 pcs
                                                                                   Jim H
                                      
                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8394 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/25/2009
                                Subject: Re: Being a pest.......
                                That's a tasty list.

                                THANKS !!!!

                                Best to ya'
                                Mike Bauers
                                Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                On Jan 25, 2009, at 2:38 PM, Willard Seehorn wrote:

                                Art Deco signs

                                Chrome store fronts

                                busses or other chromed vehicles

                                modern trailers (as in tractor-trailer truck)

                                Willard

                                At 12:08 PM 1/25/2009, you wrote:
                                Guys,

                                I've got this new cnc-cutter that works in a bunch of materials including 0.040 styrene and thinner, a wide range of card and some balsa and sheet metal is also usable with it. It cuts and embosses.......

                                I stumbled across this really great mirror finish, reflective silver art-card that  would be a breeze to run through the machine....
                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8395 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/25/2009
                                Subject: Re: Blue Line "Shorties"
                                Attachments :
                                  I while back I mentioned a 3 car set that had been issued by "Locomotive
                                  Workshop" back in the early 1980's. I said then that I thought they were
                                  reissues of the old Varneys, but someone pointed out that the widow
                                  arrangement was different.

                                  Below is a detail from the 1984 Walthers' catalog.

                                  I think the mystery of their origin may be solved.

                                  Don

                                  Don Dellmann
                                  don.dellmann@...
                                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                  http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                  Owner
                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 10:05 AM
                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Blue Line "Shorties"


                                  The other night there was lot of discussion about Blue Line full size
                                  (85') Passenger cars. Since it has settled down a little I was wondering if
                                  people know Blue Line made shorty Passenger Cars. I think they would
                                  represent 60'. I have sent a few pictures with this message to show what I
                                  have.
                                  This is a mint 3 car set that came in one box. There is what looks a
                                  little like a combine with no doors, a coach and an observation. They are
                                  metal factory painted (baked enamel) like the big cars. The cars are already
                                  assembled. The have 2 sides and a roof that are fitted together (Sorry Chuck
                                  my mistake for not looking. Not one piece). The metal bottoms are already
                                  spot welded on. They are painted for the Union Pacific. I don't know if any
                                  other road name produced in the SHORTY type. The kit contains pieces of wood
                                  along with wooden dowels to finish off detail to the cars which are wrapped
                                  in a waxed paper for protection. A large loop of copper wire to make
                                  handrails included. Unlike the larger cars where you have a heavy piece of
                                  balsa to make and fit the ends this kit has squares of a plywood like wood
                                  to make the ends. The odd part is that there are plans but they are for the
                                  85' cars. There are no trucks with this kit.
                                  Just to add a little more info to the discussion.
                                  Jim
                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8396 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/25/2009
                                  Subject: Re: Being a pest.......
                                  Chris........

                                  I've long been attracted to those same units.

                                  I think the fluted sides would be better made by milling the raw
                                  stock out of plastic, or even aluminum sheet.

                                  That would be a great project for the Sherline CNC-mill I have back-
                                  burnered, but fully funded and ready to order. I would have no
                                  theoretical problem making the correct fluted siding with that
                                  machine. It would be much easier than doing it on a manual mill.

                                  From the looks of the drawing, the fluted sides are in flat plane
                                  sections and not force-curved. A natural for generous lengths of the
                                  sheet fluting once cut. It might seem to be sinfully easy to cut the
                                  machined stock to size and bevel the inner edges to assemble the body.

                                  It looks like a suitable radius, ball-headed cutter used at precise
                                  intervals will be able to make continuous sheets of the needed custom
                                  fluted siding. I can foresee ball-head milling them into strips of
                                  the needed car height, then flat end-mill trimming the edges of those
                                  strips to make them easy to cut loose and use.

                                  A last 'needed' detail would be outer overlays to give the rubber
                                  tire on steel wheel look of its special pneumatic tired drivers and
                                  idler wheels. something that would be actually be fun to make masters
                                  on something like my vintage Sherline lathe. Then detail and cast as
                                  parts to place/glue on conventional HO RR wheels..

                                  I need to get past Tax season to install the cnc-mill. So if you can
                                  wait until the end of April before my doing anything about that
                                  custom fluting; then the Micheline railcars can finally roll on HO
                                  right of way.

                                  You'll also be seeing the side effects of my learning to use that
                                  mill. Since it is a depth-controlled 2d milling of table-length
                                  stock, it should not be a major thing to make for a newbie like me in
                                  3d cnc.

                                  Also between the cnc-cutter and the cnc-mill I'll have great ability
                                  to precision cut those round cornered windows........ even in
                                  separate pieces that can slide in the body frames if you want to
                                  build the bodies to use movable windows.

                                  Let's talk more about this.

                                  Maybe we can bring it over to the new KNK-Modeler list when that gets
                                  going later this week? Except for the custom fluting and turning of
                                  the wheel ends, this is a natural fit for the KNK-Maxx cutter........
                                  there is even the natural fit of making the wheel detail end caps in
                                  embossed thin sheet metal with that machine. I've seen some nice
                                  pressed metal ceiling tile panels of great detail made with it's
                                  embossing on the earlier and less beefy versions. I don't know if the
                                  custom fluting would work on it as well. I suspect the lengths would
                                  have too much variation in surface finish overall from the Maxx.

                                  I suspect that the bulk of the body can be made of cnc-cut styrene
                                  with the Maxx. The superstructures could be built before hand to
                                  later accept the custom fluting sections. I have seen similar inside
                                  rounded corners from the KNK's. I don't know how well it could render
                                  the HO windows at this point. Its something I should be able to try
                                  in two-weeks time after the set-up of the cutter and it's new home.

                                  If you think the drawing has the right roof profile, I can make
                                  formers to duplicate that roof cross section as a constructible if
                                  you'd rather not use a conventional model RR stock roof. Making the
                                  ends of the roof could be done with making a solid casting of a
                                  section of that custom roof, [or just filling with putty], and then
                                  sanding that into final shape as a one-of, a casting or vac-u-form
                                  master........ as either separate parts or the complete roof.

                                  I think I have been admiring that Micheline prototype since reading
                                  about it in a Trains article around 1970.

                                  Best to ya'
                                  Mike Bauers
                                  Milwaukee Wi, USA


                                  On Jan 25, 2009, at 2:40 PM, Chris B wrote:

                                  > Mike, if I can offer one small personal project that might be
                                  > suitable...embossing fluted car sides, yes to model stainless
                                  > steel, but let me explain why I can't just get normal fluted sides
                                  > already.
                                  >
                                  > there are countless models of Budd RDCs, coaches, and the Zephyr.
                                  > their fluted stainless steel sides are available over in every scale.
                                  >
                                  > But Budd did a few predecessor projects with Micheline; self-
                                  > propelled stainless steel railcars with metal flanges and rubber
                                  > tires, and to my point, fluted stainless sides with a much wider
                                  > flute.
                                  >
                                  > The Lafayette was the first, a demo model built in France and
                                  > exhibited in the US in the early 30's.
                                  > The Reading bought the first one, failure, then the PRR bought a
                                  > linked pair, bigger failure, then the Texas and Pacific bought the
                                  > final pair, and after it failed, that was it till the Zephyr and
                                  > steel wheels and real engines. The Zephyr coach designer reduced
                                  > the fluting size, making more but narrower flutes, and for other
                                  > reasons of course, the rest was history.
                                  >
                                  > here's a link to a 1 pg summary w pictures of all the pre-Zephyr
                                  > models:
                                  > http://emdx.org/rail/metro/principeE.html
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I model the Washington & Old Dominion in the '40s, and during WWII,
                                  > when the W&OD had to reinstitute passenger service, the PRR pair
                                  > were leased and then bought. The PRR had replaced the engine/six
                                  > wheel steel/rubber tire trucks with normal Brill gas/electric
                                  > trucks, and painted the stainless fluted sides tuscan, but the pair
                                  > labored for a short while on the W&OD with much hoopla and derisive
                                  > abuse, till they were parked in Rosslyn yard till scrapping in the
                                  > late forties.
                                  >
                                  > I have multiple Budd patent drawings giving fluting dimensions. I
                                  > have photos, and hi res scans of large format negatives. I have
                                  > multiple PRR drawings from before and after rebuilding with normal
                                  > trucks and engine, a modification that include a bizarre rooftop
                                  > radiator that looks like a vista cab....
                                  >
                                  > I'd only be looking for raw embossed fluted sheets with the
                                  > appropriate width, after that, I think I can do all the rest.
                                  > but it might be a modest trial of the process.
                                  >
                                  > I'm not in any hurry, and I'm open to any other method for scratch
                                  > making the fluted sides, but hey, since you asked, I thought it
                                  > couldn't hurt to ask! <g>
                                  > Chris B
                                  >
                                  > From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 12:08:20 PM
                                  > Subject: [vintageHO] Being a pest.......
                                  >
                                  > Guys,
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I've got this new cnc-cutter that works in a bunch of materials
                                  > includin g 0.040 styrene and thinner, a wide range of card and some
                                  > balsa and sheet metal is also usable with it. It cuts and
                                  > embosses.... ...
                                  >
                                  > I stumbled across this really great mirror finish, reflective
                                  > silver art-card that would be a breeze to run through the machine.
                                  >
                                  > While it wouldn't me running vintage models, made then, I sure
                                  > could make stuff of that era.........
                                  >
                                  > I don't know how well this stuff would emboss to anything like a
                                  > corrugated side model, but it sure would work well in flat paneled
                                  > or curved sides model construction.
                                  >
                                  > I'm looking for an idea or two......... a vintage era train of
                                  > chrome Pendulum passenger cars is one that pops first into my
                                  > mind. I'm not easily coming up with what seems to better ideas.
                                  >
                                  > Any wild thoughts for modeling with this chrome sheet ???
                                  >
                                  > Best to ya'
                                  > Mike Bauers
                                  > Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                  >
                                  > <BUDD MICH flutes.jpg><MichelineReading.jpg><BUDD MICH
                                  > flutes.jpg>
                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8397 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/25/2009
                                  Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW
                                  I have examples of both styles. Going by the dates on the instruction
                                  sheets, the one piece cars were produced from around 1947 to 1953, the
                                  multioiece kits from 1953 on.

                                  All the "one piece" cars I have were originally unpainted.

                                  Don

                                  Don Dellmann
                                  don.dellmann@...
                                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                  http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                  Owner
                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 7:45 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW


                                  > Blue Line had two different types of construction over the years. These
                                  > multi piece cars and a one piece sides and roof car with a wood floor.
                                  > Their sponge full width diaphragms still work.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                  > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  > Behalf
                                  > Of Jim Heckard
                                  > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:14 PM
                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Mike B,
                                  >
                                  > Want to add to my Email and pictures. Those Blue Line cars came with
                                  > the window material that was pre decorated and was a separate style for
                                  > each
                                  > car. The doors for the Baggage,Combine, etc, were a heavy cardboard
                                  > already
                                  > painted to match.
                                  >
                                  > Again the ends of the cars were a piece of balsa that you cut to shape
                                  > and very hard to fit properly. Best to find metal ends from other
                                  > companies
                                  > to fit. Sure looks better.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Jim
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8398 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/25/2009
                                  Subject: Re: Blue Line "Shorties"
                                  At $35 for three cars while you could choose from a lot of HO
                                  passenger cars around $5 in 1980 !!

                                  I can see why the 3-car set became a rare item.

                                  Best to ya'
                                  Mike Bauers
                                  Milwaukee Wi, USA


                                  On Jan 25, 2009, at 5:51 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:

                                  > I while back I mentioned a 3 car set that had been issued by
                                  > "Locomotive
                                  > Workshop" back in the early 1980's. I said then that I thought
                                  > they were
                                  > reissues of the old Varneys, but someone pointed out that the widow
                                  > arrangement was different.
                                  >
                                  > Below is a detail from the 1984 Walthers' catalog.
                                  >
                                  > I think the mystery of their origin may be solved.
                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8399 From: Chris B Date: 1/25/2009
                                  Subject: Re: Being a pest.......
                                  Mike.

                                  WOW.  sounds like a winner.

                                  Offline, I will send you some samples of the drawings & photo  info I have on these,

                                  I've been saving this project for retirmement in a few years, but if you're interested, it can move up to the front of the list pretty quick>

                                  Chris B.
                                  From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 6:57:26 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Being a pest.......

                                  Chris....... .

                                  I've long been attracted to those same units.

                                  I think the fluted sides would be better made by milling the raw
                                  stock out of plastic, or even aluminum sheet.

                                  That would be a great project for the Sherline CNC-mill I have back-
                                  burnered, but fully funded and ready to order. I would have no
                                  theoretical problem making the correct fluted siding with that
                                  machine. It would be much easier than doing it on a manual mill.

                                  From the looks of the drawing, the fluted sides are in flat plane
                                  sections and not force-curved. A natural for generous lengths of the
                                  sheet fluting once cut. It might seem to be sinfully easy to cut the
                                  machined stock to size and bevel the inner edges to assemble the body.

                                  It looks like a suitable radius, ball-headed cutter used at precise
                                  intervals will be able to make continuous sheets of the needed custom
                                  fluted siding. I can foresee ball-head milling them into strips of
                                  the needed car height, then flat end-mill trimming the edges of those
                                  strips to make them easy to cut loose and use.

                                  A last 'needed' detail would be outer overlays to give the rubber
                                  tire on steel wheel look of its special pneumatic tired drivers and
                                  idler wheels. something that would be actually be fun to make masters
                                  on something like my vintage Sherline lathe. Then detail and cast as
                                  parts to place/glue on conventional HO RR wheels..

                                  I need to get past Tax season to install the cnc-mill. So if you can
                                  wait until the end of April before my doing anything about that
                                  custom fluting; then the Micheline railcars can finally roll on HO
                                  right of way.

                                  You'll also be seeing the side effects of my learning to use that
                                  mill. Since it is a depth-controlled 2d milling of table-length
                                  stock, it should not be a major thing to make for a newbie like me in
                                  3d cnc.

                                  Also between the cnc-cutter and the cnc-mill I'll have great ability
                                  to precision cut those round cornered windows..... ... even in
                                  separate pieces that can slide in the body frames if you want to
                                  build the bodies to use movable windows.

                                  Let's talk more about this.

                                  Maybe we can bring it over to the new KNK-Modeler list when that gets
                                  going later this week? Except for the custom fluting and turning of
                                  the wheel ends, this is a natural fit for the KNK-Maxx cutter...... ..
                                  there is even the natural fit of making the wheel detail end caps in
                                  embossed thin sheet metal with that machine. I've seen some nice
                                  pressed metal ceiling tile panels of great detail made with it's
                                  embossing on the earlier and less beefy versions. I don't know if the
                                  custom fluting would work on it as well. I suspect the lengths would
                                  have too much variation in surface finish overall from the Maxx.

                                  I suspect that the bulk of the body can be made of cnc-cut styrene
                                  with the Maxx. The superstructures could be built before hand to
                                  later accept the custom fluting sections. I have seen similar inside
                                  rounded corners from the KNK's. I don't know how well it could render
                                  the HO windows at this point. Its something I should be able to try
                                  in two-weeks time after the set-up of the cutter and it's new home.

                                  If you think the drawing has the right roof profile, I can make
                                  formers to duplicate that roof cross section as a constructible if
                                  you'd rather not use a conventional model RR stock roof. Making the
                                  ends of the roof could be done with making a solid casting of a
                                  section of that custom roof, [or just filling with putty], and then
                                  sanding that into final shape as a one-of, a casting or vac-u-form
                                  master...... .. as either separate parts or the complete roof.

                                  I think I have been admiring that Micheline prototype since reading
                                  about it in a Trains article around 1970.

                                  Best to ya'
                                  Mike Bauers
                                  Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                  On Jan 25, 2009, at 2:40 PM, Chris B wrote:

                                  > Mike, if I can offer one small personal project that might be
                                  > suitable...embossin g fluted car sides, yes to model stainless
                                  > steel, but let me explain why I can't just get normal fluted sides
                                  > already.
                                  >
                                  > there are countless models of Budd RDCs, coaches, and the Zephyr.
                                  > their fluted stainless steel sides are available over in every scale.
                                  >
                                  > But Budd did a few predecessor projects with Micheline; self-
                                  > propelled stainless steel railcars with metal flanges and rubber
                                  > tires, and to my point, fluted stainless sides with a much wider
                                  > flute.
                                  >
                                  > The Lafayette was the first, a demo model built in France and
                                  > exhibited in the US in the early 30's.
                                  > The Reading bought the first one, failure, then the PRR bought a
                                  > linked pair, bigger failure, then the Texas and Pacific bought the
                                  > final pair, and after it failed, that was it till the Zephyr and
                                  > steel wheels and real engines. The Zephyr coach designer reduced
                                  > the fluting size, making more but narrower flutes, and for other
                                  > reasons of course, the rest was history.
                                  >
                                  > here's a link to a 1 pg summary w pictures of all the pre-Zephyr
                                  > models:
                                  > http://emdx. org/rail/ metro/principeE. html
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I model the Washington & Old Dominion in the '40s, and during WWII,
                                  > when the W&OD had to reinstitute passenger service, the PRR pair
                                  > were leased and then bought. The PRR had replaced the engine/six
                                  > wheel steel/rubber tire trucks with normal Brill gas/electric
                                  > trucks, and painted the stainless fluted sides tuscan, but the pair
                                  > labored for a short while on the W&OD with much hoopla and derisive
                                  > abuse, till they were parked in Rosslyn yard till scrapping in the
                                  > late forties.
                                  >
                                  > I have multiple Budd patent drawings giving fluting dimensions. I
                                  > have photos, and hi res scans of large format negatives. I have
                                  > multiple PRR drawings from before and after rebuilding with normal
                                  > trucks and engine, a modification that include a bizarre rooftop
                                  > radiator that looks like a vista cab....
                                  >
                                  > I'd only be looking for raw embossed fluted sheets with the
                                  > appropriate width, after that, I think I can do all the rest.
                                  > but it might be a modest trial of the process.
                                  >
                                  > I'm not in any hurry, and I'm open to any other method for scratch
                                  > making the fluted sides, but hey, since you asked, I thought it
                                  > couldn't hurt to ask! <g>
                                  > Chris B
                                  >
                                  > From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                  > Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 12:08:20 PM
                                  > Subject: [vintageHO] Being a pest.......
                                  >
                                  > Guys,
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I've got this new cnc-cutter that works in a bunch of materials
                                  > includin g 0.040 styrene and thinner, a wide range of card and some
                                  > balsa and sheet metal is also usable with it. It cuts and
                                  > embosses.... ...
                                  >
                                  > I stumbled across this really great mirror finish, reflective
                                  > silver art-card that would be a breeze to run through the machine.
                                  >
                                  > While it wouldn't me running vintage models, made then, I sure
                                  > could make stuff of that era.........
                                  >
                                  > I don't know how well this stuff would emboss to anything like a
                                  > corrugated side model, but it sure would work well in flat paneled
                                  > or curved sides model construction.
                                  >
                                  > I'm looking for an idea or two......... a vintage era train of
                                  > chrome Pendulum passenger cars is one that pops first into my
                                  > mind. I'm not easily coming up with what seems to better ideas.
                                  >
                                  > Any wild thoughts for modeling with this chrome sheet ???
                                  >
                                  > Best to ya'
                                  > Mike Bauers
                                  > Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                  >
                                  > <BUDD MICH flutes.jpg>< MichelineReading .jpg><BUDD MICH
                                  > flutes.jpg>
                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8400 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/25/2009
                                  Subject: Penn Line Protypes from John English
                                  Attachments :
                                        Since we have been talking about Penn Line and pictures of prototypes I thought I would share some pictures too .You might be surprised to know the the Pennsylvania Road Tender (low side) and the H-9 Consolidation actually came from John English. (No I don't know how or why Lionel didn't get these from  John English  but this must have been near the very end of John English metal steam).
                                     
                                    Picture 1             
                                    A mint cast metal road tender that came in a red John English box with a sticker on the box. The plans list John English as the maker and the trucks that came with this tender must have been a John English design too.
                                     
                                    Picture 2
                                    Two sets of John English H-9 Consolidation parts . One three part set of  boiler , steam chest and frame came mint in an original red box with a John English sticker on the box. The plans with the John English name on them tells you how to build the H-9 Consy and what parts are needed. The second engine on the top of the picture is a near completed John English (not Penn Line) Consy that was started using the John English 3 part kit.
                                     
                                         The above items were sold to Penn Line and became the basis for their H-9 and the tender became one of their big mainstays.
                                                                                                                                    Jim 
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8401 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/25/2009
                                    Subject: Re: Ambroid Passenger Kits
                                    Hi Rick,
                                     
                                    Might I suggest a quick image search on line for anything containing the words - pullman interior B&O - You will find a few images there that way. You will find even more with - caboose interior -
                                     
                                    You will have alot of luck with those.
                                     
                                    I also have a mr encyclopedia of passenger car interiors.. somewhere. I may be able to get you a few floor plans.
                                     
                                    Sean

                                    --- On Sun, 1/25/09, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                    From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Passenger Kits
                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Sunday, January 25, 2009, 12:57 PM

                                    I have a number of the Ambroid passenger car kits that are based on B&M prototypes, including one of the 3-in-1 kits. I'd like to find interior plans for these for adding the seats, etc., if anybody knows a source for these.
                                    I'm especially curious about the interior layout of the combine work caboose and how access to the cupola was accomplished with other stuff located below.

                                    Rick Jones
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8402 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/25/2009
                                    Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW

                                    Of the five one piece cars I have only, two are painted, the others are unpainted.  My one piece obs came with a nylon casting for the round end.  It has shrunk and is unusable now.

                                     

                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                     

                                    From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann
                                    Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 7:16 PM
                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW

                                     

                                    I have examples of both styles. Going by the dates on the instruction
                                    sheets, the one piece cars were produced from around 1947 to 1953, the
                                    multioiece kits from 1953 on.

                                    All the "one piece" cars I have were originally unpainted.

                                    Don

                                    Don Dellmann
                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                    Owner
                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8403 From: Dst8596587@aol.com Date: 1/25/2009
                                    Subject: Re: Being a pest.......
                                    How about some HO Hiawatha wings for the Hudson boiler front.
                                    Just a thought.
                                    Don


                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 12:08 pm
                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Being a pest.......

                                    Guys,

                                    I've got this new cnc-cutter that works in a bunch of materials includin g 0.040 styrene and thinner, a wide range of card and some balsa and sheet metal is also usable with it. It cuts and embosses.... ...

                                    I stumbled across this really great mirror finish, reflective silver  art-card that  would be a breeze to run through the machine.

                                    While it wouldn't me running vintage models, made then, I sure could make  stuff of that era.........

                                    I don't know how well this stuff would emboss to anything like a  corrugated side model, but it sure would work well in flat paneled or curved sides model construction.

                                    I'm looking for an idea or two......... a vintage era train of chrome Pendulum passenger cars is  one that pops first into my mind. I'm not easily coming up with what seems to better ideas.

                                    Any wild thoughts for modeling with this chrome sheet ???

                                    Best to ya'
                                    Mike Bauers
                                    Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8404 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/25/2009
                                    Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW
                                    I wonder if I can make a close one from some northeastern roof stock ????

                                    If the lines are wrong, I have ways of duping a solid section from the original roof that can then be shaped to fit the end of the observation.

                                    Best to ya,
                                    Mike Bauers
                                    Milwaukee, Wi

                                    On Jan 25, 2009, at 8:20 PM, Chuck Higdon wrote:

                                    Of the five one piece cars I have only, two are painted, the others are unpainted.  My one piece obs came with a nylon casting for the round end.  It has shrunk and is unusable now.
                                    From: Don Dellmann
                                     

                                    I have examples of both styles. Going by the dates on the instruction 
                                    sheets, the one piece cars were produced from around 1947 to 1953, the 
                                    multioiece kits from 1953 on.

                                    All the "one piece" cars I have were originally unpainted.

                                    Don

                                    Don Dellmann
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8405 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/25/2009
                                    Subject: Re: Being a pest.......
                                    On Jan 25, 2009, at 9:40 PM, Dst8596587@... wrote:
                                    How about some HO Hiawatha wings for the Hudson boiler front.
                                    Just a thought.
                                    Don

                                    Slap to the head.........

                                    I saved an O-scale decal set years ago just for that reason.........

                                    I forgot about that!! It wasn't until now that I had the right raw material to use for those shields.

                                    I know exactly where that decal is sitting! I'll have to scan it in this week.

                                    [ I also got a 3d pattern [computer file] for the F-7 steamer it goes on......... run that through a 3d to flat pattern converter and I've got the superstructure as a modeling pattern for the Hiawathas as well. ]

                                    Wanna convert some Mantua Pacific mechs into Milwaukee Road Hiawatha streamlined F-7's Baltics???? The software is under $40, and I can cut the builders patterns.........

                                    Details tomorrow. We might be able to use a new modelers yahoo list based around the KNK cutters. The list owner just created it a couple of days ago. I don't know about his wants towards non-KNK owners. I suspect it's OK, but I'd rather not assume .......

                                    The process would be right for it........ I can always start a related modeling group that would be based on the assorted methods and run a streamlined F-7 project there.........

                                    I'd be spreading myself a bit thin and hope to have some folks decide to use the software themselves and speed things up.

                                    Best to ya,
                                    Mike Bauers
                                    Milwaukee, Wi

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 12:08 pm
                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Being a pest.......

                                    Guys,

                                    I've got this new cnc-cutter that works in a bunch of materials includin g 0.040 styrene and thinner, a wide range of card and some balsa and sheet metal is also usable with it. It cuts and embosses.... ...

                                    I stumbled across this really great mirror finish, reflective silver  art-card that  would be a breeze to run through the machine.
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8406 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/26/2009
                                    Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 8:20 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Blue Line C&NW


                                    > Of the five one piece cars I have only, two are painted, the others are
                                    > unpainted. My one piece obs came with a nylon casting for the round end.
                                    > It has shrunk and is unusable now.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                    > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                    What a coincidence, so is mine. :-(

                                    Don

                                    Don Dellmann
                                    don.dellmann@...
                                    http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                    http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                    Owner
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8407 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 1/26/2009
                                    Subject: Re: Blue Line "Shorties"
                                    Jim & All,
                                    I had some New York Central Blue Line shorties, all 3 piece bodies. The metal floors were not spot welded. Otherwise, they were as Jim described.
                                    Someone mentioned a problem with the sides stuck to paper wrapping. I had a similar problem with the NYC shorty obs. In my case, it was the lettering which appeared to have oxidized. It stuck to the wrapping and it rubbed off on the fingers.
                                    Walter



                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 11:05:44 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Blue Line "Shorties"

                                         The other night there was lot of discussion about Blue Line full size (85') Passenger cars. Since it has settled down a little I was wondering if people know Blue Line made shorty Passenger Cars. I think they would represent  60'. I have sent a few pictures with this message to show what I have.
                                           This is a mint 3 car set that came in one box. There is what looks a little like a combine with no doors, a coach and an observation. They are metal factory painted (baked enamel) like the big cars. The cars are already assembled. The have 2 sides and a roof that are fitted together (Sorry Chuck my mistake for not looking. Not one piece). The metal bottoms are already spot welded on. They are painted for the Union Pacific. I don't know if any other road name produced in the SHORTY type. The kit contains pieces of wood along with wooden dowels to finish off detail to the cars which are wrapped in a waxed paper for protection. A large loop of copper wire to make handrails included. Unlike the larger cars where you have a heavy piece of balsa to make and fit the ends this kit has squares of a plywood like wood to make the ends. The odd part is that there are plans but they are for the 85' cars. There are no trucks with this kit.
                                           Just to add a little more info to the discussion.
                                                                                               Jim
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8408 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 1/26/2009
                                    Subject: Re: Ambroid Passenger Kits
                                    Rick,
                                    If nobody here can help you, try the Passenger Car Yahoo Group.
                                    Walter



                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 12:57:47 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Passenger Kits

                                    I have a number of the Ambroid passenger car kits that are based on B&M prototypes, including one of the 3-in-1 kits. I'd like to find interior plans for these for adding the seats, etc., if anybody knows a source for these.
                                    I'm especially curious about the interior layout of the combine work caboose and how access to the cupola was accomplished with other stuff located below.

                                    Rick Jones
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8409 From: Bill Wright Date: 1/26/2009
                                    Subject: Tyco unloading boxcar
                                    I have two Tyco unloading boxcars with the ramp to actuate the
                                    unloader that throws the crates out. I had these operating on a former
                                    layout, but tore that layout down 10 years ago. I now have a place to
                                    install the unloading ramp on my current layout. I have forgotten if
                                    the boxcars work with DC or from the 16 volt AC connection on a power
                                    pack. How should I wire the unloading ramp?

                                    Bill Wright
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8410 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 1/26/2009
                                    Subject: Re: Blue Line "Shorties"
                                    I should clarify, the NYC kits were all in individual boxes sold singly, not packed as sets of three.
                                    Walter



                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: bayerw@...
                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:52:14 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Blue Line "Shorties"

                                    Jim & All,
                                    I had some New York Central Blue Line shorties, all 3 piece bodies. The metal floors were not spot welded. Otherwise, they were as Jim described.
                                    Someone mentioned a problem with the sides stuck to paper wrapping. I had a similar problem with the NYC shorty obs. In my case, it was the lettering which appeared to have oxidized. It stuck to the wrapping and it rubbed off on the fingers.
                                    Walter



                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 11:05:44 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Blue Line "Shorties"

                                         The other night there was lot of discussion about Blue Line full size (85') Passenger cars. Since it has settled down a little I was wondering if people know Blue Line made shorty Passenger Cars. I think they would represent  60'. I have sent a few pictures with this message to show what I have.
                                           This is a mint 3 car set that came in one box. There is what looks a little like a combine with no doors, a coach and an observation. They are metal factory painted (baked enamel) like the big cars. The cars are already assembled. The have 2 sides and a roof that are fitted together (Sorry Chuck my mistake for not looking. Not one piece). The metal bottoms are already spot welded on. They are painted for the Union Pacific. I don't know if any other road name produced in the SHORTY type. The kit contains pieces of wood along with wooden dowels to finish off detail to the cars which are wrapped in a waxed paper for protection. A large loop of copper wire to make handrails included. Unlike the larger cars where you have a heavy piece of balsa to make and fit the ends this kit has squares of a plywood like wood to make the ends. The odd part is that there are plans but they are for the 85' cars. There are no trucks with this kit.
                                           Just to add a little more info to the discussion.
                                                                                               Jim
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8411 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/26/2009
                                    Subject: Re: Ambroid Passenger Kits
                                    I am sorry Rick,
                                     
                                    I think I got your message confused with another message. My home computer has a bad video card and I read B&O rather than B&M.
                                     
                                    I belong to a NYNH&H on-line discussion group. Their may be one for the boston and maine as well. I would give tha a try too. I bet there is and if so, I would be interested as well. I might try digging around at what I have also.
                                     
                                    There might even be books avaliable with info on their passenger cars. I know i have at lease 4-5 books on the various New Haven freight and diesel paint schemes. I know I saw at least one on the B&M.
                                     
                                    Sean


                                    --- On Mon, 1/26/09, bayerw@... <bayerw@...> wrote:
                                    From: bayerw@... <bayerw@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ambroid Passenger Kits
                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 8:54 AM

                                    Rick,
                                    If nobody here can help you, try the Passenger Car Yahoo Group.
                                    Walter



                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@sbcglobal .net>
                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                    Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 12:57:47 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Passenger Kits

                                    I have a number of the Ambroid passenger car kits that are based on B&M prototypes, including one of the 3-in-1 kits. I'd like to find interior plans for these for adding the seats, etc., if anybody knows a source for these.
                                    I'm especially curious about the interior layout of the combine work caboose and how access to the cupola was accomplished with other stuff located below.

                                    Rick Jones
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8412 From: oljoeoh Date: 1/26/2009
                                    Subject: Re: Ambroid Passenger Kits
                                    Sean....
                                    Where is the NYNH&H on-line discussion group located?
                                    Joe O'Loughlin

                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I am sorry Rick,
                                    >
                                    > I think I got your message confused with another message. My home
                                    computer has a bad video card and I read B&O rather than B&M.
                                    >
                                    > I belong to a NYNH&H on-line discussion group. Their may be one for
                                    the boston and maine as well. I would give tha a try too. I bet there
                                    is and if so, I would be interested as well. I might try digging
                                    around at what I have also.
                                    >
                                    > There might even be books avaliable with info on their passenger
                                    cars. I know i have at lease 4-5 books on the various New Haven
                                    freight and diesel paint schemes. I know I saw at least one on the B&M.
                                    >
                                    > Sean
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- On Mon, 1/26/09, bayerw@... <bayerw@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > From: bayerw@... <bayerw@...>
                                    > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ambroid Passenger Kits
                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 8:54 AM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Rick,
                                    > If nobody here can help you, try the Passenger Car Yahoo Group.
                                    > Walter
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@sbcglobal .net>
                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                    > Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 12:57:47 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Passenger Kits
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I have a number of the Ambroid passenger car kits that are based on
                                    B&M prototypes, including one of the 3-in-1 kits. I'd like to find
                                    interior plans for these for adding the seats, etc., if anybody knows
                                    a source for these.
                                    > I'm especially curious about the interior layout of the combine work
                                    caboose and how access to the cupola was accomplished with other stuff
                                    located below.
                                    >
                                    > Rick Jones
                                    >
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8413 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/26/2009
                                    Subject: Re: Ambroid Passenger Kits
                                    Hi Joe,
                                     
                                     
                                    This should do it. They are not very active right now, but they have been in the past.
                                     
                                    Like 1 email / month I have gotten lately
                                     
                                    Sean

                                    --- On Mon, 1/26/09, oljoeoh <oljoe@...> wrote:
                                    From: oljoeoh <oljoe@...>
                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ambroid Passenger Kits
                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 9:49 AM

                                    Sean....
                                    Where is the NYNH&H on-line discussion group located?
                                    Joe O'Loughlin

                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I am sorry Rick,
                                    >
                                    > I think I got your message confused with another message. My home
                                    computer has a bad video card and I read B&O rather than B&M.
                                    >
                                    > I belong to a NYNH&H on-line discussion group. Their may be one for
                                    the boston and maine as well. I would give tha a try too. I bet there
                                    is and if so, I would be interested as well. I might try digging
                                    around at what I have also.
                                    >
                                    > There might even be books avaliable with info on their passenger
                                    cars. I know i have at lease 4-5 books on the various New Haven
                                    freight and diesel paint schemes. I know I saw at least one on the B&M.
                                    >
                                    > Sean
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- On Mon, 1/26/09, bayerw@... <bayerw@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > From: bayerw@... <bayerw@...>
                                    > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ambroid Passenger Kits
                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                    > Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 8:54 AM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Rick,
                                    > If nobody here can help you, try the Passenger Car Yahoo Group.
                                    > Walter
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@sbcgloba l .net>
                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                    > Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 12:57:47 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Passenger Kits
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I have a number of the Ambroid passenger car kits that are based on
                                    B&M prototypes, including one of the 3-in-1 kits. I'd like to find
                                    interior plans for these for adding the seats, etc., if anybody knows
                                    a source for these.
                                    > I'm especially curious about the interior layout of the combine work
                                    caboose and how access to the cupola was accomplished with other stuff
                                    located below.
                                    >
                                    > Rick Jones
                                    >
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8414 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/26/2009
                                    Subject: Re: Ambroid Passenger Kits
                                    Hi Joe,
                                     
                                    Here is another one I just joined, but have not nbeen approved yet.
                                     
                                    Did not see one for the B&M, but I bet there are B&M fans on either one. I have two boxes of B&M equipment of mine. I do have about 2 columns of 1x 2'x 6' tall worth of boxes of NH equipment though.. just a little bit more..
                                     
                                     
                                    Sean

                                    --- On Mon, 1/26/09, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                    From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Ambroid Passenger Kits
                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 10:10 AM

                                    Hi Joe,
                                     
                                     
                                    This should do it. They are not very active right now, but they have been in the past.
                                     
                                    Like 1 email / month I have gotten lately
                                     
                                    Sean

                                    --- On Mon, 1/26/09, oljoeoh <oljoe@landolls. com> wrote:
                                    From: oljoeoh <oljoe@landolls. com>
                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ambroid Passenger Kits
                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                    Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 9:49 AM

                                    Sean....
                                    Where is the NYNH&H on-line discussion group located?
                                    Joe O'Loughlin

                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I am sorry Rick,
                                    >
                                    > I think I got your message confused with another message. My home
                                    computer has a bad video card and I read B&O rather than B&M.
                                    >
                                    > I belong to a NYNH&H on-line discussion group. Their may be one for
                                    the boston and maine as well. I would give tha a try too. I bet there
                                    is and if so, I would be interested as well. I might try digging
                                    around at what I have also.
                                    >
                                    > There might even be books avaliable with info on their passenger
                                    cars. I know i have at lease 4-5 books on the various New Haven
                                    freight and diesel paint schemes. I know I saw at least one on the B&M.
                                    >
                                    > Sean
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- On Mon, 1/26/09, bayerw@... <bayerw@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > From: bayerw@... <bayerw@...>
                                    > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ambroid Passenger Kits
                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                    > Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 8:54 AM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Rick,
                                    > If nobody here can help you, try the Passenger Car Yahoo Group.
                                    > Walter
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@sbcgloba l .net>
                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                    > Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 12:57:47 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Passenger Kits
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I have a number of the Ambroid passenger car kits that are based on
                                    B&M prototypes, including one of the 3-in-1 kits. I'd like to find
                                    interior plans for these for adding the seats, etc., if anybody knows
                                    a source for these.
                                    > I'm especially curious about the interior layout of the combine work
                                    caboose and how access to the cupola was accomplished with other stuff
                                    located below.
                                    >
                                    > Rick Jones
                                    >
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8415 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/26/2009
                                    Subject: Re: Blue Line "Shorties"
                                    Don,
                                      Glad my pictures of the Blue Line Shorties set was helpful. I now also have learned were they ended up. I like to follow the trail of what companies items later became another. This history so hard to track.
                                                                                                             Jim H
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 6:51 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Blue Line "Shorties"

                                    I while back I mentioned a 3 car set that had been issued by "Locomotive
                                    Workshop" back in the early 1980's. I said then that I thought they were
                                    reissues of the old Varneys, but someone pointed out that the widow
                                    arrangement was different.

                                    Below is a detail from the 1984 Walthers' catalog.

                                    I think the mystery of their origin may be solved.

                                    Don

                                    Don Dellmann
                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                    Owner
                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                    Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 10:05 AM
                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Blue Line "Shorties"

                                    The other night there was lot of discussion about Blue Line full size
                                    (85') Passenger cars. Since it has settled down a little I was wondering if
                                    people know Blue Line made shorty Passenger Cars. I think they would
                                    represent 60'. I have sent a few pictures with this message to show what I
                                    have.
                                    This is a mint 3 car set that came in one box. There is what looks a
                                    little like a combine with no doors, a coach and an observation. They are
                                    metal factory painted (baked enamel) like the big cars. The cars are already
                                    assembled. The have 2 sides and a roof that are fitted together (Sorry Chuck
                                    my mistake for not looking. Not one piece). The metal bottoms are already
                                    spot welded on. They are painted for the Union Pacific. I don't know if any
                                    other road name produced in the SHORTY type. The kit contains pieces of wood
                                    along with wooden dowels to finish off detail to the cars which are wrapped
                                    in a waxed paper for protection. A large loop of copper wire to make
                                    handrails included. Unlike the larger cars where you have a heavy piece of
                                    balsa to make and fit the ends this kit has squares of a plywood like wood
                                    to make the ends. The odd part is that there are plans but they are for the
                                    85' cars. There are no trucks with this kit.
                                    Just to add a little more info to the discussion.
                                    Jim
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8416 From: James Bartelt Date: 1/26/2009
                                    Subject: Re: Tyco unloading boxcar
                                    As far as I can recall it hooks up to the AC accessory terminals. See this page for details.

                                    http://www.ho-scaletrains.net/tycoactionaccessories/id43.html
                                     

                                    James Bartelt
                                    jimbartelt@...


                                    METRO RR Club
                                    http://www.metrorrclub.org


                                    METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2009
                                    http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html

                                     



                                    From: Bill Wright <wmewrght@...>
                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:01:49 AM
                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Tyco unloading boxcar

                                    I have two Tyco unloading boxcars with the ramp to actuate the
                                    unloader that throws the crates out. I had these operating on a former
                                    layout, but tore that layout down 10 years ago. I now have a place to
                                    install the unloading ramp on my current layout. I have forgotten if
                                    the boxcars work with DC or from the 16 volt AC connection on a power
                                    pack. How should I wire the unloading ramp?

                                    Bill Wright
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8417 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/26/2009
                                    Subject: Re: Being a pest.......
                                    I'm going to bore you a bit at first with a couple of cads that are
                                    used to make trains for the RR simulators...... and for most any other
                                    game you can think of........

                                    For a cad here is the first one with the model RR plug-ins.......
                                    http://www.amabilis.com/

                                    Look in the gallery
                                    http://www.amabilis.com/gallery.htm

                                    Look over the free plug-ins
                                    http://www.amabilis.com/mediadownloads.htm#Scripts

                                    Here are specific How-To's for making RR engines and cars.......
                                    http://steam4me.railpage.org.au/trainsim/tutorials/index.html#models

                                    NOW look here and see what's right at the top that you can make with a
                                    similar, but free cad.......
                                    http://steam4me.railpage.org.au/trainsim/tutorials/ro_gmax_00.html

                                    HERE is that cad.....
                                    http://www.turbosquid.com/gmax

                                    Overview of the cads......
                                    http://steam4me.railpage.org.au/trainsim/tutorials/which3d.html

                                    FINALLY....... here is the program that takes a 3d computer model and
                                    unfolds it into flat builders patterns that when cut-out or duplicated
                                    with conventional modeling materials........ become our normal models

                                    Here......
                                    http://www.tamasoft.co.jp/pepakura-en/

                                    To judge it........

                                    click on "Pepakura Gallery"...... on the left

                                    Then in the center of the page.......... 'Go to Gallery'

                                    Browse page after page and download something of interest........

                                    Here is my favorite Vintage Locomotive made with a cad and
                                    Pepakura...... downloadable even

                                    http://paperinside.com/delorean/ [Back To The Future, Train Time
                                    Machine]
                                    WARNING !!!! BEWARE OF THE LINKS ON THE RIGHT OF THAT PAGE..........
                                    THEY WORK AND YOU CAN LOOSE HOURS EXPLORING THROUGH THEM !!!

                                    For an idea of what can be used with this program, go here........
                                    http://msts.banal.net/catalog/catalog.html

                                    As a sample......... here's a page of downloads I'd like to work
                                    with........
                                    http://msts.banal.net/catalog/pages/UnitedStates-Electric-MilwaukeeRoad.html

                                    Or maybe you'd like some of these samples........
                                    http://msts.banal.net/catalog/pages/medium/US/US_MP_DR4-4-15_203.html

                                    or.....
                                    http://msts.banal.net/catalog/pages/medium/US/US_CMSPP_F7_100_Hiawatha.html
                                    http://msts.banal.net/catalog/pages/medium/US/US_SWW_Mason_Bogie_0-6-4T_1.html
                                    http://msts.banal.net/catalog/pages/medium/US/US_UA_Turbo_51.html
                                    http://msts.banal.net/catalog/pages/medium/US/US_LS_GE_25_Ton_150.html
                                    http://msts.banal.net/catalog/pages/medium/US/US_CNW_60_Ton_F-Series_1002.html
                                    http://msts.banal.net/catalog/pages/medium/US/US_PRR_B-1_3900.html
                                    http://msts.banal.net/catalog/pages/medium/US/US_CTA_2495_Linden.html
                                    http://msts.banal.net/catalog/pages/medium/US/US_UP_Gas_Turbine_18_A.html
                                    http://msts.banal.net/catalog/pages/medium/Fic/Fic_-_Jet_Test_Vehicle.html
                                    http://msts.banal.net/catalog/pages/medium/Fic/Fic_MCT_NGT8D_Blue.html
                                    http://msts.banal.net/catalog/pages/medium/Fic/Fic_SV_Express_127_Pelican.html
                                    http://msts.banal.net/catalog/pages/medium/Fic/Fic_VT_Brill_213.html

                                    A -BIG- library of the downloads......

                                    http://www.train-sim.com/forum.htm

                                    Best to ya,
                                    Mike Bauers
                                    Milwaukee, Wi

                                    On Jan 25, 2009, at 11:44 PM, Mike Bauers wrote:

                                    > On Jan 25, 2009, at 9:40 PM, Dst8596587@... wrote:
                                    >> How about some HO Hiawatha wings for the Hudson boiler front.
                                    >> Just a thought.
                                    >> Don
                                    >
                                    > Slap to the head.........
                                    >
                                    > I saved an O-scale decal set years ago just for that reason.........
                                    >
                                    > I forgot about that!! It wasn't until now that I had the right raw
                                    > material to use for those shields.
                                    >
                                    > I know exactly where that decal is sitting! I'll have to scan it in
                                    > this week.
                                    >
                                    > [ I also got a 3d pattern [computer file] for the F-7 steamer it
                                    > goes on......... run that through a 3d to flat pattern converter and
                                    > I've got the superstructure as a modeling pattern for the Hiawathas
                                    > as well. ]
                                    >
                                    > Wanna convert some Mantua Pacific mechs into Milwaukee Road Hiawatha
                                    > streamlined F-7's Baltics???? The software is under $40, and I can
                                    > cut the builders patterns.........
                                    >
                                    > Details tomorrow. We might be able to use a new modelers yahoo list
                                    > based around the KNK cutters. The list owner just created it a
                                    > couple of days ago. I don't know about his wants towards non-KNK
                                    > owners. I suspect it's OK, but I'd rather not assume .......
                                    >
                                    > The process would be right for it........ I can always start a
                                    > related modeling group that would be based on the assorted methods
                                    > and run a streamlined F-7 project there.........
                                    >
                                    > I'd be spreading myself a bit thin and hope to have some folks
                                    > decide to use the software themselves and speed things up.
                                    >
                                    > Best to ya,
                                    > Mike Bauers
                                    > Milwaukee, Wi
                                    >>
                                    >> -----Original Message-----
                                    >> From: Mike Bauers
                                    >>
                                    >> Guys,
                                    >>
                                    >> I've got this new cnc-cutter that works in a bunch of materials
                                    >> including 0.040 styrene and thinner, a wide range of card and some
                                    >> balsa and sheet metal is also usable with it. It cuts and
                                    >> embosses.......
                                    >>
                                    >> I stumbled across this really great mirror finish, reflective
                                    >> silver art-card that would be a breeze to run through the machine.
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8418 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/26/2009
                                    Subject: odd, rare diesel
                                     
                                     

                                     
                                                      Just to let anyone know that might be interested that if you go to Ebay No.    270333893478    HO Vintage Alco you will see a diesel sold by Arden in the 50's. It uses the same body as IMP used later and very close to a similar  Red Ball item. All three used different drives and that is what is unique about the Arden . Read the description and view the one picture closely and you will see. This Arden engine/drive very rarely seen. Basically a collectors piece
                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8419 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/26/2009
                                    Subject: need help with ID
                                      For one of the first times I can remember I bid on an item on Ebay ( actually my son in law bid for me) and not sure what it is. Go to   220348040977  From the bronze age, Diesel Body, 2 power trucks of 3 axles    I would like any info for identifying the body. I bid to win it ID what I got
                                                                                                                                                Jim H
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8420 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/26/2009
                                    Subject: motors
                                    Anyone know where to have a permag motor remagnetized? I have one that will barely move its own self--and is designed into the drive--so a re-motor is not the best idea.  Thx   gj
                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8421 From: Chris B Date: 1/26/2009
                                    Subject: Re: need help with ID
                                    Attachments :
                                      Jim,

                                      Sean identified that listed engine last week, as one he sold, and as japanese, made by: TETSUDO MOKEI-SHA

                                      and another similar engine, listed the same time, as by the same maker.

                                      see below in this email

                                      Chris B.

                                      From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 9:14:18 PM
                                      Subject: [vintageHO] need help with ID

                                        For one of the first times I can remember I bid on an item on Ebay ( actually my son in law bid for me) and not sure what it is. Go to   220348040977  From the bronze age, Diesel Body, 2 power trucks of 3 axles    I would like any info for identifying the body. I bid to win it ID what I got
                                                                                                                                                  Jim H


                                      ==========================================

                                       
                                      --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                      From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item number: 220348040977
                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                      Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 12:12 PM

                                      Hi Chriss,
                                       
                                      I just sod these brass trucks: 370142596406
                                       
                                      MADE IN TOKYO JAPAN - TETSUDO MOKEI-SHA
                                      They went with this engine: 370144073041
                                       
                                      The instructions were included.
                                       
                                      The trucks you are showing me look to be the same as the ones on this one I just sold. I do not remember right now the ones you purchased, though I do know I can find the pic if I need to..
                                       
                                      Sean

                                       
                                      From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
                                      Subject: [vintageHO] maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item number: 220348040977
                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                      Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 11:50 AM

                                      Sean, months ago, I enjoyed a discussion about the source of some heavy old cast e unit trucks,
                                      this posting on ebay would seem to be the same trucks but with shell.
                                      Would this be enough to identify the maker ?
                                       
                                      "From the Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle  Item number: 220348040977"
                                       
                                      Chris B.

                                      ====================


                                      There's another TETSUDO MOKEI listing I noticed since...
                                      different side frames as well, but the flywheel looks similar to another pair of 4 wheel trucks I also got from you, must be a year ago now.
                                       

                                      International BRASS E7A Powered TetsudoMokei Runs Well

                                      		Item number: 150321939436

                                      so maybe both pairs might be from TETSUDO MOKEI .
                                       

                                       
                                      From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:14:58 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item number: 220348040977

                                      Looking at it closer, the sideframes are close, but still different... possiblly the same maker though..
                                       
                                      Sean


                                       
                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8422 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/26/2009
                                      Subject: Re: need help with ID
                                      Chris,
                                       Thanks for the response but the engine Sean identified is a sheet brass model . The item I won is a cast brass item. Only talking about the body. Not worried about Identifying the trucks. Notice the complete difference in detail on the roof behind the cab especially. Not the same item but thanks for the suggestion.
                                                                                                                        Jim
                                                                                                                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Chris B
                                      Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 9:58 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] need help with ID

                                      Jim,

                                      Sean identified that listed engine last week, as one he sold, and as japanese, made by: TETSUDO MOKEI-SHA

                                      and another similar engine, listed the same time, as by the same maker.

                                      see below in this email

                                      Chris B.

                                      From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                      Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 9:14:18 PM
                                      Subject: [vintageHO] need help with ID

                                        For one of the first times I can remember I bid on an item on Ebay ( actually my son in law bid for me) and not sure what it is. Go to   220348040977  From the bronze age, Diesel Body, 2 power trucks of 3 axles    I would like any info for identifying the body. I bid to win it ID what I got
                                                                                                                                                  Jim H


                                      ============ ========= ========= ========= ===
                                       
                                      --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                      From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item number: 220348040977
                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                      Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 12:12 PM

                                      Hi Chriss,
                                       
                                      I just sod these brass trucks: 370142596406
                                       
                                      MADE IN TOKYO JAPAN - TETSUDO MOKEI-SHA
                                      They went with this engine: 370144073041
                                       
                                      The instructions were included.
                                       
                                      The trucks you are showing me look to be the same as the ones on this one I just sold. I do not remember right now the ones you purchased, though I do know I can find the pic if I need to..
                                       
                                      Sean

                                       
                                      From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
                                      Subject: [vintageHO] maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item number: 220348040977
                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                      Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 11:50 AM

                                      Sean, months ago, I enjoyed a discussion about the source of some heavy old cast e unit trucks,
                                      this posting on ebay would seem to be the same trucks but with shell.
                                      Would this be enough to identify the maker ?
                                       
                                      "From the Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle  Item number: 220348040977"
                                       
                                      Chris B.

                                      ============ ========


                                      There's another TETSUDO MOKEI listing I noticed since...
                                      different side frames as well, but the flywheel looks similar to another pair of 4 wheel trucks I also got from you, must be a year ago now.
                                       

                                      International BRASS E7A Powered TetsudoMokei Runs Well

                                      		Item number: 150321939436

                                      so maybe both pairs might be from TETSUDO MOKEI .
                                       

                                       
                                      From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                      Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:14:58 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] maker? Bronze Age: Diesel body 2 Power truck 3 axle Item number: 220348040977

                                      Looking at it closer, the sideframes are close, but still different... possiblly the same maker though..
                                       
                                      Sean


                                       
                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8423 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/26/2009
                                      Subject: odd possible E unit
                                         Chris, and All
                                              According to the description that the seller wrote "E" style body. I'm not sure it is an E style body. The windows on the side of the cab actually look more like a PA 1 because of the third window but of course it isn't a PA 1. Doesn't match any of the E units I have or see in books. Seller says heavy machined brass construction , EXCELLENT SOLDERING OR MACHINING. I can't tell from pictures where. I thought at first from picture showing inside of body that it was a one piece casting. Other pictures suggest to me a model that has been assembled, not one casting. Cab looks added. Seller says looks like a 1950's General Motors promo /  train of tomorrow. No idea what this was or would look like.
                                           I do know what it is NOT. Because it is heavy cast (seller claims bronze) it takes out all sheet metal engines from Japan like IMP (International). As for cast brass or bronze items because of style, details, materials it is not; Harris Matucci solid cast brass and different look, Dallas Model Craft/Dallas Model Co kit with many cast parts some of which were brass, JS Cambron which was one piece cast metal, Crescent which was a sheet brass kit, Cary which was die cast lead body, Hobbies Inc which is wood and stamped aluminum kit.
                                        I'm starting to think a project engine of different pieces well done to represent ?????
                                                                                                Jim H
                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8424 From: John Barlow Date: 1/26/2009
                                      Subject: Re: odd, rare diesel
                                      Clarification: The diesel is a RS-1. Manufacturer: rare. Prototype is not really rare.
                                       
                                      John

                                      --- On Mon, 1/26/09, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                      From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                      Subject: [vintageHO] odd, rare diesel
                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 5:42 PM

                                       
                                       

                                       
                                                        Just to let anyone know that might be interested that if you go to Ebay No.    270333893478    HO Vintage Alco you will see a diesel sold by Arden in the 50's. It uses the same body as IMP used later and very close to a similar  Red Ball item. All three used different drives and that is what is unique about the Arden . Read the description and view the one picture closely and you will see. This Arden engine/drive very rarely seen. Basically a collectors piece
                                                                                                                                      Jim H
                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8425 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/26/2009
                                      Subject: Re: odd possible E unit
                                      Attachments :
                                        Jim Heckard wrote:
                                           Chris, and All
                                                According to the description that the seller wrote "E" style body. I'm not sure it is an E style body. The windows on the side of the cab actually look more like a PA 1 because of the third window but of course it isn't a PA 1. Doesn't match any of the E units I have or see in books. Seller says heavy machined brass construction , EXCELLENT SOLDERING OR MACHINING. I can't tell from pictures where. I thought at first from picture showing inside of body that it was a one piece casting. Other pictures suggest to me a model that has been assembled, not one casting. Cab looks added. Seller says looks like a 1950's General Motors promo /  train of tomorrow. No idea what this was or would look like.
                                             I do know what it is NOT. Because it is heavy cast (seller claims bronze) it takes out all sheet metal engines from Japan like IMP (International). As for cast brass or bronze items because of style, details, materials it is not; Harris Matucci solid cast brass and different look, Dallas Model Craft/Dallas Model Co kit with many cast parts some of which were brass, JS Cambron which was one piece cast metal, Crescent which was a sheet brass kit, Cary which was die cast lead body, Hobbies Inc which is wood and stamped aluminum kit.
                                          I'm starting to think a project engine of different pieces well done to represent ?????
                                                                                                  Jim H
                                        Jim,

                                        The Train of Tomorrow had an standard E7 with decorative trim - http://www.thewhistlestop.com/catalog/gmtot.htm, 
                                        your cast body seems to be a E1 , most likely an ATSF unit in the later modernized configuration with altered headligh and Mars light added. The picture clearly shows the long , three panel engine room windows unique to this series, and the third cab side window - a carryover from the M.10.000 trains.

                                        Gerold
                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8426 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/27/2009
                                        Subject: Re: odd possible E unit
                                        Yes--definitely one of the early Santa Fe "E" units--possibly incorporating some modifications--I don't have a good ATSF reference handy, but the early ones were railroad specific.  If they lasted long enough they might wind up being rebuilt with standard components such as SP E-2 #6017--rebuilt as an E-7  gj
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:28 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd possible E unit

                                        Jim Heckard wrote:
                                           Chris, and All
                                                According to the description that the seller wrote "E" style body. I'm not sure it is an E style body. The windows on the side of the cab actually look more like a PA 1 because of the third window but of course it isn't a PA 1. Doesn't match any of the E units I have or see in books. Seller says heavy machined brass construction , EXCELLENT SOLDERING OR MACHINING. I can't tell from pictures where. I thought at first from picture showing inside of body that it was a one piece casting. Other pictures suggest to me a model that has been assembled, not one casting. Cab looks added. Seller says looks like a 1950's General Motors promo /  train of tomorrow. No idea what this was or would look like.
                                             I do know what it is NOT. Because it is heavy cast (seller claims bronze) it takes out all sheet metal engines from Japan like IMP (International). As for cast brass or bronze items because of style, details, materials it is not; Harris Matucci solid cast brass and different look, Dallas Model Craft/Dallas Model Co kit with many cast parts some of which were brass, JS Cambron which was one piece cast metal, Crescent which was a sheet brass kit, Cary which was die cast lead body, Hobbies Inc which is wood and stamped aluminum kit.
                                          I'm starting to think a project engine of different pieces well done to represent ?????
                                                                                                  Jim H
                                        Jim,

                                        The Train of Tomorrow had an standard E7 with decorative trim - http://www.thewhistlestop.com/catalog/gmtot.htm, 
                                        your cast body seems to be a E1 , most likely an ATSF unit in the later modernized configuration with altered headligh and Mars light added. The picture clearly shows the long , three panel engine room windows unique to this series, and the third cab side window - a carryover from the M.10.000 trains.

                                        Gerold


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                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8427 From: bill_pittman1 Date: 1/27/2009
                                        Subject: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                        Can any one help me find a varney gg1 (streamlined 4-8-4)? I Would be
                                        greatful for any help.
                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8428 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/27/2009
                                        Subject: Re: odd possible E unit
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
                                        To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:28 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd possible E unit


                                        > Jim Heckard wrote:
                                        >> Chris, and All
                                        >> According to the description that the seller wrote "E" style
                                        >> body. I'm not sure it is an E style body. The windows on the side of
                                        >> the cab actually look more like a PA 1 because of the third window but
                                        >> of course it isn't a PA 1. Doesn't match any of the E units I have or
                                        >> see in books. Seller says heavy machined brass
                                        >> construction , EXCELLENT SOLDERING OR MACHINING. I can't tell from
                                        >> pictures where. I thought at first from picture showing inside of body
                                        >> that it was a one piece casting. Other pictures suggest to me a model
                                        >> that has been assembled, not one casting. Cab looks added. Seller says
                                        >> looks like a 1950's General Motors promo / train of tomorrow. No idea
                                        >> what this was or would look like.
                                        >> I do know what it is NOT. Because it is heavy cast (seller claims
                                        >> bronze) it takes out all sheet metal engines from Japan like IMP
                                        >> (International). As for cast brass or bronze items because of style,
                                        >> details, materials it is not; Harris Matucci solid cast brass and
                                        >> different look, Dallas Model Craft/Dallas Model Co kit with many cast
                                        >> parts some of which were brass, JS Cambron which was one piece cast
                                        >> metal, Crescent which was a sheet brass kit, Cary which was die cast
                                        >> lead body, Hobbies Inc which is wood and stamped aluminum kit.
                                        >> I'm starting to think a project engine of different pieces well done
                                        >> to represent ?????
                                        >> Jim H
                                        > Jim,
                                        >
                                        > The Train of Tomorrow had an standard E7 with decorative trim -
                                        > http://www.thewhistlestop.com/catalog/gmtot.htm,
                                        > your cast body seems to be a E1 , most likely an ATSF unit in the later
                                        > modernized configuration with altered headligh and Mars light added. The
                                        > picture clearly shows the long , three panel engine room windows unique
                                        > to this series, and the third cab side window - a carryover from the
                                        > M.10.000 trains.
                                        >
                                        > Gerold
                                        >
                                        I thought that too, but the nose doesn't look long enough,

                                        Don

                                        Don Dellmann
                                        don.dellmann@...
                                        http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                        http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                        Owner
                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8429 From: Gary Woodard Date: 1/27/2009
                                        Subject: Re: odd, rare diesel
                                        Hi John,
                                         
                                        No, that is an RS2 or RS3, an RS1 looks considerably different.........:o)
                                         
                                        Gary W

                                         
                                        Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                        From: John Barlow <jdenver4150@...>
                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 2:18:50 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd, rare diesel

                                        Clarification: The diesel is a RS-1. Manufacturer: rare. Prototype is not really rare.
                                         
                                        John

                                        --- On Mon, 1/26/09, Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
                                        From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                        Subject: [vintageHO] odd, rare diesel
                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                        Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 5:42 PM

                                         
                                         

                                         
                                                          Just to let anyone know that might be interested that if you go to Ebay No.    270333893478    HO Vintage Alco you will see a diesel sold by Arden in the 50's. It uses the same body as IMP used later and very close to a similar  Red Ball item. All three used different drives and that is what is unique about the Arden . Read the description and view the one picture closely and you will see. This Arden engine/drive very rarely seen. Basically a collectors piece
                                                                                                                                        Jim H
                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8430 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
                                        Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                              Extremely hard to find especially the rare original body. I understand that Lew English of Bowser has the die and had made some repros with the Bowser name inside on the top in the past. Others have made repros probably using it but taking the name out. Some have show up on eBay. This is what you have to watch if you find one. Good Luck in your search.
                                                Having been a past member of the HOSC&H-SIG that was lead by David Spanagel who wrote the Greenberg guide to Varney trains, That is now a defunct group. I only remember 4 being verified as original up to the end of the group. Of course that doesn't mean more are not out there.  Getting an original, which I am lucky to possess one that was verified.  
                                                                                                                              Jim
                                                                                                                                 
                                            
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 4:11 AM
                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Varney 4-8-4 GG1

                                        Can any one help me find a varney gg1 (streamlined 4-8-4)? I Would be
                                        greatful for any help.
                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8431 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
                                        Subject: Re: odd possible E unit
                                        Gerold,
                                                The picture you sent (I assume a real engine) sure looks like the type of engine I bought. Now I have to find if my engine was produced by a company or is it someone's project which I know tend to believe. As always appreciate your input.
                                                                                                                             Jim
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 2:28 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd possible E unit

                                        Jim Heckard wrote:

                                           Chris, and All
                                                According to the description that the seller wrote "E" style body. I'm not sure it is an E style body. The windows on the side of the cab actually look more like a PA 1 because of the third window but of course it isn't a PA 1. Doesn't match any of the E units I have or see in books. Seller says heavy machined brass construction , EXCELLENT SOLDERING OR MACHINING. I can't tell from pictures where. I thought at first from picture showing inside of body that it was a one piece casting. Other pictures suggest to me a model that has been assembled, not one casting. Cab looks added. Seller says looks like a 1950's General Motors promo /  train of tomorrow. No idea what this was or would look like.
                                             I do know what it is NOT. Because it is heavy cast (seller claims bronze) it takes out all sheet metal engines from Japan like IMP (International) . As for cast brass or bronze items because of style, details, materials it is not; Harris Matucci solid cast brass and different look, Dallas Model Craft/Dallas Model Co kit with many cast parts some of which were brass, JS Cambron which was one piece cast metal, Crescent which was a sheet brass kit, Cary which was die cast lead body, Hobbies Inc which is wood and stamped aluminum kit.
                                          I'm starting to think a project engine of different pieces well done to represent ?????
                                                                                                  Jim H
                                        Jim,

                                        The Train of Tomorrow had an standard E7 with decorative trim - http://www.thewhist lestop.com/ catalog/gmtot. htm, 
                                        your cast body seems to be a E1 , most likely an ATSF unit in the later modernized configuration with altered headligh and Mars light added. The picture clearly shows the long , three panel engine room windows unique to this series, and the third cab side window - a carryover from the M.10.000 trains.

                                        Gerold
                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8432 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
                                        Subject: Re: odd possible E unit
                                                         To all who have answered my request as to the odd engine body I bought on Ebay I thank you. I had to go to the experts about the prototype  before I could decide if it was a rare manufactured item or a project someone had made. I now can go back to my vintage HO reference books to check. I am really leaning to a project created by someone.Of course when I receive the item I might be able to tell more. Again thanks to all.
                                                                                                      Jim
                                                                                                   
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 6:02 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd possible E unit


                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
                                        To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                        Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:28 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd possible E unit

                                        > Jim Heckard wrote:
                                        >> Chris, and All
                                        >> According to the description that the seller wrote "E" style
                                        >> body. I'm not sure it is an E style body. The windows on the side of
                                        >> the cab actually look more like a PA 1 because of the third window but
                                        >> of course it isn't a PA 1. Doesn't match any of the E units I have or
                                        >> see in books. Seller says heavy machined brass
                                        >> construction , EXCELLENT SOLDERING OR MACHINING. I can't tell from
                                        >> pictures where. I thought at first from picture showing inside of body
                                        >> that it was a one piece casting. Other pictures suggest to me a model
                                        >> that has been assembled, not one casting. Cab looks added. Seller says
                                        >> looks like a 1950's General Motors promo / train of tomorrow. No idea
                                        >> what this was or would look like.
                                        >> I do know what it is NOT. Because it is heavy cast (seller claims
                                        >> bronze) it takes out all sheet metal engines from Japan like IMP
                                        >> (International) . As for cast brass or bronze items because of style,
                                        >> details, materials it is not; Harris Matucci solid cast brass and
                                        >> different look, Dallas Model Craft/Dallas Model Co kit with many cast
                                        >> parts some of which were brass, JS Cambron which was one piece cast
                                        >> metal, Crescent which was a sheet brass kit, Cary which was die cast
                                        >> lead body, Hobbies Inc which is wood and stamped aluminum kit.
                                        >> I'm starting to think a project engine of different pieces well done
                                        >> to represent ?????
                                        >> Jim H
                                        > Jim,
                                        >
                                        > The Train of Tomorrow had an standard E7 with decorative trim -
                                        > http://www.thewhist lestop.com/ catalog/gmtot. htm,
                                        > your cast body seems to be a E1 , most likely an ATSF unit in the later
                                        > modernized configuration with altered headligh and Mars light added. The
                                        > picture clearly shows the long , three panel engine room windows unique
                                        > to this series, and the third cab side window - a carryover from the
                                        > M.10.000 trains.
                                        >
                                        > Gerold
                                        >
                                        I thought that too, but the nose doesn't look long enough,

                                        Don

                                        Don Dellmann
                                        don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                        http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                        http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                        Owner
                                        http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                        http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8433 From: Chris B Date: 1/27/2009
                                        Subject: Re: odd possible E unit
                                        Attachments :
                                          Jim, I'd never known of the E1 before this morning, and no hits on an HO model yet,
                                           
                                          but here's some online links to pix of what I think are N scale models of E1s (E1 text from first link below
                                           
                                           

                                          " The locomotives were new and unique.  The Electromotive Corporation furnished newly designed E1 diesels for the Super Chief, the first of a long line of E passenger diesels.  The famous warbonnet paint scheme made its debut with this train.  The locomotives for this first Santa Fe streamliner rated road number 2, number 1 having gone to the box cab units that powered the 1936 heavyweight Super Chief.  The cabless E1B unit was designated by Santa Fe as number 2A.  The units were semi-permanently coupled together and generated a total of 3600 horsepower.

                                           

                                          The locomotives were new and unique.  The Electromotive Corporation furnished newly designed E1 diesels for the Super Chief, the first of a long line of E passenger diesels.  The famous warbonnet paint scheme made its debut with this train.  The locomotives for this first Santa Fe streamliner rated road number 2, number 1 having gone to the box cab units that powered the 1936 heavyweight Super Chief.  The cabless E1B unit was designated by Santa Fe as number 2A.  The units were semi-permanently coupled together and generated a total of 3600 horsepower."

                                          -----------

                                           

                                          and a prototype photo.

                                           

                                          always happy to learn. 

                                          to me it does look like, from what I could see on the ebay pix of this listing,

                                          that the internal drive train machining on the truck bodies (pedestal stands for the shafts and grease cups for the drive gears)

                                          matches the brass c-c mystery trucks that I put up for review last year, and just reposted pix of to Sean

                                           

                                          Chris B.

                                          ________________________________
                                          From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 7:45:50 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd possible E unit


                                          Gerold,
                                                  The picture you sent (I assume a real engine) sure looks like the type of engine I bought. Now I have to find if my engine was produced by a company or is it someone's project which I know tend to believe. As always appreciate your input.
                                                                                                                               Jim

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Gerold Eckl
                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                          Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 2:28 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd possible E unit

                                          Jim Heckard wrote:
                                             Chris, and All
                                                  According to the description that the seller wrote "E" style body. I'm not sure it is an E style body. The windows on the side of the cab actually look more like a PA 1 because of the third window but of course it isn't a PA 1. Doesn't match any of the E units I have or see in books. Seller says heavy machined brass construction , EXCELLENT SOLDERING OR MACHINING. I can't tell from pictures where. I thought at first from picture showing inside of body that it was a one piece casting. Other pictures suggest to me a model that has been assembled, not one casting. Cab looks added. Seller says looks like a 1950's General Motors promo /  train of tomorrow. No idea what this was or would look like.
                                               I do know what it is NOT. Because it is heavy cast (seller claims bronze) it takes out all sheet metal engines from Japan like IMP (International) . As for cast brass or bronze items because of style, details, materials it is not; Harris Matucci solid cast brass and different look, Dallas Model Craft/Dallas Model Co kit with many cast parts some of which were brass, JS Cambron which was one piece cast metal, Crescent which was a sheet brass kit, Cary which was die cast lead body, Hobbies Inc which is wood and stamped aluminum kit.
                                            I'm starting to think a project engine of different pieces well done to represent ?????
                                                                                                    Jim HJim,

                                          The Train of Tomorrow had an standard E7 with decorative trim - http://www.thewhist lestop.com/ catalog/gmtot. htm, 
                                          your cast body seems to be a E1 , most likely an ATSF unit in the later modernized configuration with altered headligh and Mars light added. The picture clearly shows the long , three panel engine room windows unique to this series, and the third cab side window - a carryover from the M.10.000 trains.

                                          Gerold

                                          ________________________________
                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8434 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
                                          Subject: E unit ID
                                          Attachments :
                                                     Because of the help supplied by members in trying to ID the prototype that was used to make an HO engine body I bought on Ebay I was able to go back to my collection and find the nearest factory produced CAST engine to it.
                                                I have sent two picture of DMC (Dallas Model Craft) E units that were sold as E3/E6.That's what they sold them as. There were two runs. The first was a kit that had a single driven truck and is the only papersided engine in HO I know of. The second run has Embossed sides and had both trucks geared and driven. You can see that the design ,although not cut out, has the 3rd cabin window on the side. Also for what ever reason DMC produced E units were Santa Fe War bonnet specific. One quick detail difference I noticed was DMC engines hand only 1 headlight.
                                                These DMC engines although cast used brass, aluminum and some bronze in their kits, that was cast by A&S (Adams & Sons), but are the CLOSEST cast factory produced items I know of to the body I bought. Haven't found anything close in old vintage HO catalogs either (YET).
                                                I definitely am leaning to a project engine. If so it can enter the "fantasy" part of my vintage HO collection.
                                                                                                                     Jim
                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8435 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/27/2009
                                            Subject: Re: E unit ID
                                            Even if it were a manufactured body, it has definitely been modified.  The nose is like one in the pictures, that of an E7, all previous E units had more slope on the nose and pilot.  The roof air scoops have been added to the engine you purchased...  So it is a project loco.
                                            Happy railroading.

                                            I was bidding on a Hobbytown E7 unit and an extra frame unit without a body on eBay and lost.  I hope one of you folks won it...  And somebody wanted Athearn F7's with rubberband drive real bad but Sunday's are like that on eBay.

                                            Don in VA
                                            ============================================================
                                            Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                     Because of the help supplied by members in trying to ID the prototype that was used to make an HO engine body I bought on Ebay I was able to go back to my collection and find the nearest factory produced CAST engine to it.
                                                I have sent two picture of DMC (Dallas Model Craft) E units that were sold as E3/E6.That's what they sold them as. There were two runs. The first was a kit that had a single driven truck and is the only papersided engine in HO I know of. The second run has Embossed sides and had both trucks geared and driven. You can see that the design ,although not cut out, has the 3rd cabin window on the side. Also for what ever reason DMC produced E units were Santa Fe War bonnet specific. One quick detail difference I noticed was DMC engines hand only 1 headlight.
                                                These DMC engines although cast used brass, aluminum and some bronze in their kits, that was cast by A&S (Adams & Sons), but are the CLOSEST cast factory produced items I know of to the body I bought. Haven't found anything close in old vintage HO catalogs either (YET).
                                                I definitely am leaning to a project engine. If so it can enter the "fantasy" part of my vintage HO collection.
                                                                                                                     Jim
                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8436 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
                                            Subject: Re: E unit ID
                                            Attachments :
                                              Don,
                                                                   Thanks for your reply. Since everyone seems to be on the same page as to the prototype my HO body was copied from has made it easier.
                                                         I'm 99% sure it was a project. When I first saw it on Ebay I didn't really check the pictures. As an avid vintage collector along with normal documented items, I have found a number that are unknown to many. I just wanted to get this to see what it was. I do notice now that there seems to be a seam between the nose and the body. Even inside I now see that. I will rebuild as a "fantasy"engine for my vintage collections since it was not a manufactured engine. I'm a kind of a nut about factory made items being as close to the original item as possible even if they ran poor, looked poor. AS WAS is my motto. When I must rebuild items I try very hard to get the original major parts no matter how long that might take. I am a little flexible on small details like bells, whistles, etc.
                                                        Again thanks                                           Jim H                                           
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:05 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] E unit ID

                                              Even if it were a manufactured body, it has definitely been modified.  The nose is like one in the pictures, that of an E7, all previous E units had more slope on the nose and pilot.  The roof air scoops have been added to the engine you purchased...  So it is a project loco.
                                              Happy railroading.

                                              I was bidding on a Hobbytown E7 unit and an extra frame unit without a body on eBay and lost.  I hope one of you folks won it...  And somebody wanted Athearn F7's with rubberband drive real bad but Sunday's are like that on eBay.

                                              Don in VA
                                              ============================================================
                                              Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                       Because of the help supplied by members in trying to ID the prototype that was used to make an HO engine body I bought on Ebay I was able to go back to my collection and find the nearest factory produced CAST engine to it.
                                                  I have sent two picture of DMC (Dallas Model Craft) E units that were sold as E3/E6.That's what they sold them as. There were two runs. The first was a kit that had a single driven truck and is the only papersided engine in HO I know of. The second run has Embossed sides and had both trucks geared and driven. You can see that the design ,although not cut out, has the 3rd cabin window on the side. Also for what ever reason DMC produced E units were Santa Fe War bonnet specific. One quick detail difference I noticed was DMC engines hand only 1 headlight.
                                                  These DMC engines although cast used brass, aluminum and some bronze in their kits, that was cast by A&S (Adams & Sons), but are the CLOSEST cast factory produced items I know of to the body I bought. Haven't found anything close in old vintage HO catalogs either (YET).
                                                  I definitely am leaning to a project engine. If so it can enter the "fantasy" part of my vintage HO collection.
                                                                                                                       Jim
                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8437 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
                                              Subject: Re: odd possible E unit
                                              Glen,
                                                            Appreciate you spent more time trying to help.  I'm sure with your picture and info added to others what the prototype was. I'm also now sure this HO body I bought was a project not manufactured. I have been able to come to these conclusions because of this forum and the help of many.
                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: Glenn476
                                              Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:11 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd possible E unit

                                              Yes--definitely one of the early Santa Fe "E" units--possibly incorporating some modifications- -I don't have a good ATSF reference handy, but the early ones were railroad specific.  If they lasted long enough they might wind up being rebuilt with standard components such as SP E-2 #6017--rebuilt as an E-7  gj
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:28 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd possible E unit

                                              Jim Heckard wrote:
                                                 Chris, and All
                                                      According to the description that the seller wrote "E" style body. I'm not sure it is an E style body. The windows on the side of the cab actually look more like a PA 1 because of the third window but of course it isn't a PA 1. Doesn't match any of the E units I have or see in books. Seller says heavy machined brass construction , EXCELLENT SOLDERING OR MACHINING. I can't tell from pictures where. I thought at first from picture showing inside of body that it was a one piece casting. Other pictures suggest to me a model that has been assembled, not one casting. Cab looks added. Seller says looks like a 1950's General Motors promo /  train of tomorrow. No idea what this was or would look like.
                                                   I do know what it is NOT. Because it is heavy cast (seller claims bronze) it takes out all sheet metal engines from Japan like IMP (International) . As for cast brass or bronze items because of style, details, materials it is not; Harris Matucci solid cast brass and different look, Dallas Model Craft/Dallas Model Co kit with many cast parts some of which were brass, JS Cambron which was one piece cast metal, Crescent which was a sheet brass kit, Cary which was die cast lead body, Hobbies Inc which is wood and stamped aluminum kit.
                                                I'm starting to think a project engine of different pieces well done to represent ?????
                                                                                                        Jim H
                                              Jim,

                                              The Train of Tomorrow had an standard E7 with decorative trim - http://www.thewhist lestop.com/ catalog/gmtot. htm, 
                                              your cast body seems to be a E1 , most likely an ATSF unit in the later modernized configuration with altered headligh and Mars light added. The picture clearly shows the long , three panel engine room windows unique to this series, and the third cab side window - a carryover from the M.10.000 trains.

                                              Gerold


                                              No virus found in this incoming message.
                                              Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
                                              Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.14/1917 - Release Date: 1/26/2009 6:37 PM
                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8438 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 1/27/2009
                                              Subject: Re: odd possible E unit
                                              HI:

                                              I have not seen the E unit in question. It SOUNDS, from the discussions,
                                              like the unit, with it's PA style side windows, could be an early EMD "EA"
                                              model. These were used by both ATSF and B&O.

                                              An example of one still exists in the B&O museum

                                              Dave F


                                              **************
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                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8439 From: Bill Pittman Date: 1/27/2009
                                              Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                              I have only seen 2 on ebay in the last 8 years. Would you interested in selling yours? I have called English Trains and her wanted $100,000.00 to make one. What he told me was the molds have not been used sens they got them. 
                                               
                                                                                                                                     Bill

                                              --- On Tue, 1/27/09, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                              From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                              Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 12:40 PM

                                                    Extremely hard to find especially the rare original body. I understand that Lew English of Bowser has the die and had made some repros with the Bowser name inside on the top in the past. Others have made repros probably using it but taking the name out. Some have show up on eBay. This is what you have to watch if you find one. Good Luck in your search.
                                                      Having been a past member of the HOSC&H-SIG that was lead by David Spanagel who wrote the Greenberg guide to Varney trains, That is now a defunct group. I only remember 4 being verified as original up to the end of the group. Of course that doesn't mean more are not out there.  Getting an original, which I am lucky to possess one that was verified.  
                                                                                                                                    Jim
                                                                                                                                       
                                                  
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 4:11 AM
                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Varney 4-8-4 GG1

                                              Can any one help me find a varney gg1 (streamlined 4-8-4)? I Would be
                                              greatful for any help.
                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8440 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
                                              Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                                     The two that showed up on Ebay were newly made according to what buyers ask and are suppose to be so stated. That seller has to be careful if he made them. No I would not want to sell mine. It is a part of my vintage collection, a highly prized and sought after piece most likely irreplaceable since it's original. Although there has been limited buying or selling to establish a price range for an original they would / should be fairly high. As for English / Bowser having the mold but not wanting to use it is there choice.
                                                                                                                                   Jim
                                                                                                                                             
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:56 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney 4-8-4 GG1

                                              I have only seen 2 on ebay in the last 8 years. Would you interested in selling yours? I have called English Trains and her wanted $100,000.00 to make one. What he told me was the molds have not been used sens they got them. 
                                               
                                                                                                                                     Bill

                                              --- On Tue, 1/27/09, Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
                                              From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                              Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 12:40 PM

                                                    Extremely hard to find especially the rare original body. I understand that Lew English of Bowser has the die and had made some repros with the Bowser name inside on the top in the past. Others have made repros probably using it but taking the name out. Some have show up on eBay. This is what you have to watch if you find one. Good Luck in your search.
                                                      Having been a past member of the HOSC&H-SIG that was lead by David Spanagel who wrote the Greenberg guide to Varney trains, That is now a defunct group. I only remember 4 being verified as original up to the end of the group. Of course that doesn't mean more are not out there.  Getting an original, which I am lucky to possess one that was verified.  
                                                                                                                                    Jim
                                                                                                                                       
                                                  
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 4:11 AM
                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Varney 4-8-4 GG1

                                              Can any one help me find a varney gg1 (streamlined 4-8-4)? I Would be
                                              greatful for any help.
                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8441 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 1/27/2009
                                              Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                              whats so rare about a "varney" GG1??? I have one in the OB.......Bill

                                              A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8442 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/27/2009
                                              Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: <SFLYERCRAZY@...>
                                              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:33 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney 4-8-4 GG1


                                              > whats so rare about a "varney" GG1??? I have one in the OB.......Bill
                                              > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2
                                              > easy
                                              > steps!
                                              > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De
                                              > cemailfooterNO62)
                                              >

                                              I think we're talking about two different locomotives here. The rare one is
                                              the cast prewar version. I would guess what you have is a mid 60's one,
                                              which is actually the Penn Line body.

                                              Don

                                              Don Dellmann
                                              don.dellmann@...
                                              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                              Owner
                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8443 From: Bill Pittman Date: 1/27/2009
                                              Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                              The one was made from 1938-1940. the wheel set up was 4-8-4 not 4-6-6-4.Do Want to sell yours?       
                                                                                                                       Bill
                                                                                                                                           

                                              --- On Tue, 1/27/09, SFLYERCRAZY@... <SFLYERCRAZY@...> wrote:
                                              From: SFLYERCRAZY@... <SFLYERCRAZY@...>
                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                              Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 7:33 PM

                                              whats so rare about a "varney" GG1??? I have one in the OB.......Bill

                                              A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8444 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
                                              Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                                         We are not talking about a Varney GG-1 (4-6-6-4) that was the PL GG-1 made in the 60's. We are talking about a Varney pre war electric streamline engine that was sold using Varney paperwork billed as a GG-1 like engine but was a 4-8-4 (which people say is an R-1).
                                                        A big difference.
                                                                                                         Jim H
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 2:33 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney 4-8-4 GG1

                                              whats so rare about a "varney" GG1??? I have one in the OB.......Bill

                                              A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8445 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
                                              Subject: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                              Attachments :
                                                Hi Bill,
                                                       Wanted to share these pictures so you can better understand what engine we are discussing. While we have discussed this engine there are new members who might not have had a chance to see. This engine was made in 1938. The paper work says suggestive of a Pennsy GG-1 (but was a 4-8-4). The second picture shows the paperwork to power the engine using a Varney pre war 2-8-0 Consolidation with V-1  6 volt motor and how to "chop it to use it". You used Varney 2 axle pre war passenger trucks for the leading/trailing trucks. The original body did not come with pantographs and was not drilled to take them. Varney later started selling a pair to use. I chose not to drill the holes but can put the pantographs on if desired. I also chose to use Varney post war Super Consolidation in mine with the 12 volt motor. That part doesn't matter to me as it is the original body that is the pricey piece. In can go back to he pre war frame easily
                                                                                  Hope this helps                                       Jim
                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8446 From: Bill Pittman Date: 1/27/2009
                                                Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                I collect PRR. I have 4 of the penn line gg1. I also have a converted gg1 made in to a r-1. thats why i want the varney 4-8-4. i have greenberg guide and a 1940 varney cat.

                                                --- On Tue, 1/27/09, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 8:39 PM

                                                Hi Bill,
                                                       Wanted to share these pictures so you can better understand what engine we are discussing. While we have discussed this engine there are new members who might not have had a chance to see. This engine was made in 1938. The paper work says suggestive of a Pennsy GG-1 (but was a 4-8-4). The second picture shows the paperwork to power the engine using a Varney pre war 2-8-0 Consolidation with V-1  6 volt motor and how to "chop it to use it". You used Varney 2 axle pre war passenger trucks for the leading/trailing trucks. The original body did not come with pantographs and was not drilled to take them. Varney later started selling a pair to use. I chose not to drill the holes but can put the pantographs on if desired. I also chose to use Varney post war Super Consolidation in mine with the 12 volt motor. That part doesn't matter to me as it is the original body that is the pricey piece. In can go back to he pre war frame easily
                                                                                  Hope this helps                                       Jim
                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8447 From: Bill Pittman Date: 1/27/2009
                                                Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                                We are talking about 2 different engines. I collect PRR diecast. I have 4 of pennline style gg1.
                                                       Bill 

                                                --- On Tue, 1/27/09, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 8:01 PM

                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
From: <SFLYERCRAZY@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney 4-8-4 GG1


> whats so rare about a "varney" GG1??? I have one in the 
OB.......Bill
> **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 
> easy
> steps!
>
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De
> cemailfooterNO62)
>

I think we're talking about two different locomotives here.  The rare one
is 
the cast prewar version.  I would guess what you have is a mid 60's one, 
which is actually the Penn Line body.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 


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                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8448 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 1/27/2009
                                                Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                                I understand now.....Bill

                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8449 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 1/27/2009
                                                Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                                ooopss..my bad..I have the latter 4-6-6-4..not the 4-8-4 one...Bill

                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8450 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
                                                Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                                   Nothing wrong with being mistaken. Happens to the best of us. That is why this and other groups are important and how we find things out.
                                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:22 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney 4-8-4 GG1

                                                I understand now.....Bill

                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8451 From: Bill Pittman Date: 1/27/2009
                                                Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                                Thank you for your help. If you ever want to sell Yours please keep me in mind i would give almost any amount for it just name your price.I perfer cast over brass. All of my engines but 3 are cast, they seem to run and pull better.
                                                                                         
                                                                                                                    Bill

                                                --- On Tue, 1/27/09, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 9:17 PM

                                                   Nothing wrong with being mistaken. Happens to the best of us. That is why this and other groups are important and how we find things out.
                                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:22 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney 4-8-4 GG1

                                                I understand now.....Bill

                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8452 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 1/27/2009
                                                Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                Hi Jim
                                                 
                                                 That's a real interesting piece!!!! To me it looks like its a lot shorter then a regular GG1...Thanx for the pics...It does clear up things for me. Now if I could just find a NH GG1 by Penn Line I would be happy....Its the last one I need.......Bill

                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8453 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/27/2009
                                                Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                Didn't Tyco offer the GG1/2 many years back?
                                                 
                                                Steve
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 4:10 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney PRE WAR Electric

                                                Hi Jim
                                                 
                                                 That's a real interesting piece!!!! To me it looks like its a lot shorter then a regular GG1...Thanx for the pics...It does clear up things for me. Now if I could just find a NH GG1 by Penn Line I would be happy....Its the last one I need.......Bill

                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8454 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
                                                Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                Yes TYCO offered a plastic bodied GG-1 when they took over Mantua for a while that used driven trucks  with 3 axles on each end but nothing in the middle to represent what would have been the drivers on the real GG-1. A poor GG-1 rendition. Actually the bodies, especially the one painted black with gold stripes, were  very sharp looking. It was a shorter body then a GG-1 for HO scale. I think it was even shorter then the Penn Line / Varney version
                                                                                                             Jim H
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 5:16 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney PRE WAR Electric

                                                Didn't Tyco offer the GG1/2 many years back?
                                                 
                                                Steve
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 4:10 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney PRE WAR Electric

                                                Hi Jim
                                                 
                                                 That's a real interesting piece!!!! To me it looks like its a lot shorter then a regular GG1...Thanx for the pics...It does clear up things for me. Now if I could just find a NH GG1 by Penn Line I would be happy....Its the last one I need.......Bill

                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8455 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
                                                Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                              Yes it is a LOT shorter then the GG-1 as far as HO scale goes. It was purposely made shorter so it could take small radius track.
                                                              If you only need the New Haven PL GG-1 that means you got the Great Northern one already. I can't help finding a New Haven. Maybe some one else or Ebay.
                                                             Since we are talking about the Penn Line / Varney GG-1's do you know of or have you seen the almost exact copy made in Japan and sold under the HOTCO  (HO Train Co) name by GHC (General Hobbies Co. which was actually the fore runner of AHM). It was just about an exact copy of the Penn Line GG-1, factory painted in Pennsy Tuscan only. The biggest difference is all the screws and bolts were metric. This caused a headache for a lot of people who bought PL parts to repair their engine not realizing it was a Japanese import copy.
                                                                                                                      Jim
                                                            
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 4:10 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney PRE WAR Electric

                                                Hi Jim
                                                 
                                                 That's a real interesting piece!!!! To me it looks like its a lot shorter then a regular GG1...Thanx for the pics...It does clear up things for me. Now if I could just find a NH GG1 by Penn Line I would be happy....Its the last one I need.......Bill

                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8456 From: John Hagen Date: 1/27/2009
                                                Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                They sold something that had GG1 styling. Kind of like a Yugo with
                                                Rolls Royce styling. A real pos (piece of ....well, you know) model. In
                                                electric locomotive parlance it was a 0-6-6-0. Used two three axle
                                                diesel type trucks. Like I said, pos.

                                                John Hagen

                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Didn't Tyco offer the GG1/2 many years back?
                                                >
                                                > Steve
                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8457 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/27/2009
                                                Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                That's the one I was thinking of. You're right, pos.
                                                 
                                                Steve
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: John Hagen
                                                Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 6:17 PM
                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric

                                                They sold something that had GG1 styling. Kind of like a Yugo with
                                                Rolls Royce styling. A real pos (piece of ....well, you know) model. In
                                                electric locomotive parlance it was a 0-6-6-0. Used two three axle
                                                diesel type trucks. Like I said, pos.

                                                John Hagen

                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Didn't Tyco offer the GG1/2 many years back?
                                                >
                                                > Steve



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                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8458 From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com Date: 1/27/2009
                                                Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                Hi Jim..Yep..I have the GN GG1 one in a boxed pass set..I think theres a pic of it in my photos section..Ive never heard of the HOTCO one....I learn more everyday...When I get back from New Jersey at the end of Feb I will be looking hard and heavy for the NH GG1.....Ive passed on a couple of them on ebay because they has paint issues etc..but sooner or later the right one will come along!!!..Bill

                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8459 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/27/2009
                                                Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                yeah--with sort-of ALCo trucks. 
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 2:16 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney PRE WAR Electric

                                                Didn't Tyco offer the GG1/2 many years back?
                                                 
                                                Steve
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 4:10 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney PRE WAR Electric

                                                Hi Jim
                                                 
                                                 That's a real interesting piece!!!! To me it looks like its a lot shorter then a regular GG1...Thanx for the pics...It does clear up things for me. Now if I could just find a NH GG1 by Penn Line I would be happy....Its the last one I need.......Bill

                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!


                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8460 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/27/2009
                                                Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                I painted an AHM GG-1 in GN colors--sort of a "What if?" scheme--What if, during the Korean War, the GN needed additional power to move military trains to Puget Sound ports? GN would have been possible as they had the same electric power as the PRR (and NH, VGN, and one or two others. On the other hand, MILW could not have done so as their power was totally different--but then they got the "Little Joes" that GE was stuck with in the Cold War.  gj
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 3:04 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney PRE WAR Electric

                                                              Yes it is a LOT shorter then the GG-1 as far as HO scale goes. It was purposely made shorter so it could take small radius track.
                                                              If you only need the New Haven PL GG-1 that means you got the Great Northern one already. I can't help finding a New Haven. Maybe some one else or Ebay.
                                                             Since we are talking about the Penn Line / Varney GG-1's do you know of or have you seen the almost exact copy made in Japan and sold under the HOTCO  (HO Train Co) name by GHC (General Hobbies Co. which was actually the fore runner of AHM). It was just about an exact copy of the Penn Line GG-1, factory painted in Pennsy Tuscan only. The biggest difference is all the screws and bolts were metric. This caused a headache for a lot of people who bought PL parts to repair their engine not realizing it was a Japanese import copy.
                                                                                                                      Jim
                                                            
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 4:10 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney PRE WAR Electric

                                                Hi Jim
                                                 
                                                 That's a real interesting piece!!!! To me it looks like its a lot shorter then a regular GG1...Thanx for the pics...It does clear up things for me. Now if I could just find a NH GG1 by Penn Line I would be happy....Its the last one I need.......Bill

                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!


                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                                                Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.14/1918 - Release Date: 1/27/2009 7:26 AM
                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8461 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
                                                Subject: TYCO poor copy GG-1
                                                Attachments :
                                                      John H,
                                                             I fully agree that the TYCO GG-1 was a real fiasco. I've sent this picture so I can show you what I have done with one. I always like the " Black Jack" style paint job they had on this shortened so called GG-1. I took the 6 wheel trucks out and replaced them with Mantua F-7 4 wheel powered trucks . The fit right into the slots in the TYCO body. I then took 3 sets of Bachman Dummy Drive wheels (that came from a crappy 2-8-0) and created a platform under the middle of the TYCO body. Couldn't fit anymore. This platform allows the dummy trucks to shift side to side separately. With the double motors it can pull a nice load, with the 4 wheel trucks front and back looks much better and the dummy drive wheels fill in the blank space. This engine can run on 15" radius track and go through switches no problem but a little added weight would help. I've been told it resembles an R-5 but I really don't know. That's not my area of knowledge. It is just a "fantasy" engine in my collection that I like the looks of.
                                                                                                                             Jim 
                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8462 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/27/2009
                                                  Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                     Bill,                                                                                                                                                                                              I got lucky and have a mint boxed GN Penn Line GG-1. I have the New Haven GG-1 but not mint. It's in good shape even though a lot of them have paint problems. What ever causes it they seem to have a lot of flaking and paint loss.
                                                                                                      Jim
                                                   
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 6:14 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney PRE WAR Electric

                                                  Hi Jim..Yep..I have the GN GG1 one in a boxed pass set..I think theres a pic of it in my photos section..Ive never heard of the HOTCO one....I learn more everyday...When I get back from New Jersey at the end of Feb I will be looking hard and heavy for the NH GG1.....Ive passed on a couple of them on ebay because they has paint issues etc..but sooner or later the right one will come along!!!..Bill

                                                  A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8463 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 1/27/2009
                                                  Subject: Re: TYCO poor copy GG-1
                                                  Jim and LIst:

                                                  If anyone has one of those spare Tyco GG-1 bodies lying around looking for
                                                  a home -- I need one.

                                                  I would like to see if I can turn one into a (late) PRR P-5......

                                                  Any thoughts would be appreciated.

                                                  Dave F



                                                  **************
                                                  A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=DecemailfooterNO62)
                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8464 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/27/2009
                                                  Subject: Re: TYCO poor copy GG-1
                                                  Attachments :
                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: <WK2SHR@...>
                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:08 PM
                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] TYCO poor copy GG-1


                                                    > Jim and LIst:
                                                    >
                                                    > If anyone has one of those spare Tyco GG-1 bodies lying around looking for
                                                    > a home -- I need one.
                                                    >
                                                    > I would like to see if I can turn one into a (late) PRR P-5......
                                                    >
                                                    > Any thoughts would be appreciated.
                                                    >
                                                    > Dave F

                                                    As long as we're talking GG-1's, it's not vintage, it is strictly a fantasy
                                                    piece, but here's what I did with an AHM shell and a model power Alco FA-1
                                                    1/2 chassis.

                                                    Don

                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                    don.dellmann@...
                                                    http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                    http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                    Owner
                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8465 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/27/2009
                                                    Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                    What's a  GG-Half ?
                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8466 From: John Hagen Date: 1/27/2009
                                                    Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                    GG-0.5? In strict Pennsy-speak it would be a G-1 as the GG stands for
                                                    the use of what is basically two 4-6-0's. They used the same
                                                    terminology for indentifying their electrics by wheel arrangemant just
                                                    as they did for their steam engines. Their ten wheelers were all "G"
                                                    series locomotives hence the GG. Their 4-4-0's were "D" series steamers
                                                    so their early 4-4-0+0-4-4 electrics were DD-1's.

                                                    John Hagen

                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > What's a GG-Half ?
                                                    >
                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8467 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/28/2009
                                                    Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                    likewise, I have speculated , suppose the War Production Board had diverted
                                                    some of the UP Challenger order to the Pennsy, what would a "GG-2" have
                                                    looked like?Possibly pilot, smokebox, and cab similar to those on a "J", and
                                                    the 16-wheel "Coast-to-Coast" tender.

                                                    The boxcabs that came from the GN (their Y-1 class) became "FF-2" or
                                                    possibly FF-6 (not positive of the number, but I think they had earlier
                                                    2-6-6-2's)


                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:25 PM
                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric


                                                    > GG-0.5? In strict Pennsy-speak it would be a G-1 as the GG stands for
                                                    > the use of what is basically two 4-6-0's. They used the same
                                                    > terminology for indentifying their electrics by wheel arrangemant just
                                                    > as they did for their steam engines. Their ten wheelers were all "G"
                                                    > series locomotives hence the GG. Their 4-4-0's were "D" series steamers
                                                    > so their early 4-4-0+0-4-4 electrics were DD-1's.
                                                    >
                                                    > John Hagen
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                    >>
                                                    >> What's a GG-Half ?
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ------------------------------------
                                                    >
                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >


                                                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                    Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                                                    Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.14/1920 - Release Date: 1/27/2009
                                                    6:15 PM
                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8468 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/28/2009
                                                    Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                    Attachments :
                                                      >
                                                      > The boxcabs that came from the GN (their Y-1 class) became "FF-2" or
                                                      > possibly FF-6 (not positive of the number, but I think they had earlier
                                                      > 2-6-6-2's)
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      FF-2 .... they were numbered #1 - up , as orphans who were supposed to
                                                      have a short life. The FF-1 was an experimental side rod monster that
                                                      was not repeated, pic attached.

                                                      Gerold
                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8469 From: erieberk Date: 1/28/2009
                                                      Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                      John, Thank you for your input, 'though I'm well aware of Pennsy's
                                                      classification configurations. Of course, Pennsy never built a "G-1"
                                                      as you put it, even though they did have a GG-Motor that was only half
                                                      of an engine (a 4-6-0); but more about that below.

                                                      As you will note from my post, I was replying to Steve's (cnj_railfan)
                                                      message in this same thread when he asked, "Didn't Tyco offer the GG
                                                      1/2 many years back?" My question is what did Tyco produce as a GG 1/2
                                                      (GG Half)? I never saw Tyco produce a model that resembled half a GG-1.

                                                      Anyway, back to Pennsy. Yes they had 1/2 of a GG-1, with a 4-6-0 wheel
                                                      arrangement (that they STILL CLASSIFIED AS A GG-1). This was the #4846
                                                      that was used as a self-propelled snow blower to clear the switches in
                                                      the shop area at Wilmington, Delaware. It was scrapped in 1967.

                                                      But back to Tyco, I'm still interested in hearing about Tyco's GG 1/2.
                                                      Many thank, Ray



                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > GG-0.5? In strict Pennsy-speak it would be a G-1 as the GG stands for
                                                      > the use of what is basically two 4-6-0's. They used the same
                                                      > terminology for indentifying their electrics by wheel arrangemant
                                                      just
                                                      > as they did for their steam engines. Their ten wheelers were all "G"
                                                      > series locomotives hence the GG. Their 4-4-0's were "D" series
                                                      steamers
                                                      > so their early 4-4-0+0-4-4 electrics were DD-1's.
                                                      >
                                                      > John Hagen
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > What's a GG-Half ?
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8470 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/28/2009
                                                      Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                      Tyco's compressed version of a GG1 (half of a GG1) ;-)
                                                       
                                                      Steve
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 11:59 PM
                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney PRE WAR Electric

                                                      What's a  GG-Half ?
                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8471 From: erieberk Date: 1/28/2009
                                                      Subject: Re: Red Ball Reefer Sides part 3
                                                      Finishing up with the last of the Red Ball Refrigerator sides. These
                                                      are also Billboard reefers, as were most of them. These sides were
                                                      used with Truss-Rod reefers which used EITHER Arch-Bar or Bettendorf
                                                      trucks. BTW, all of the complete kit catalog numbers are the same,
                                                      as the car-side set numbers, except that the prefix was "K" instead
                                                      of "S". The kits were sold both with or without trucks, depending on
                                                      the hobbyist's preference.

                                                      Truss-Rod Billboard Reefers:

                                                      S-18 -- Phoenix Cheese 38' Yw & Br #23237 [1915]

                                                      S-20 -- Pluto water 40' Wt #2687 [1927]

                                                      S-32 -- Pabst-ett Cheese 40' Yw #23248 [1919]

                                                      S-34 -- Paige Milk 40' Yw #1829 [1923]

                                                      S-40 -- Ralston Purina Feeds 42' #5507 [1927]

                                                      S-43 -- Northern Bananas 40' Yw #7103 [1912]

                                                      S-80 -- Doggie Dinner 40' Yw #60129 [1910]

                                                      S-85 -- Raths Black Hawk Ham 40' Bl & Wt #208 [1935]

                                                      S-92 -- Birkshire Ham & Bacon 40' Rd & Yw #? [1910]

                                                      S-94 -- Carnation Milk 40' Yw #23214 [1907]

                                                      S-95 -- Narragansett Ale 40' Yw #11 [1910]

                                                      S-129 - Sugar Creek Butter 40' Yw #45063

                                                      S-135 - Mollhaney Butter 41' Yw #4801 [1913]

                                                      S-138 - Coors Golden Beer 41' Wt #5423 [1918]

                                                      S-142 - N.A.D.X. Pep Eggs 40' Yw #6001 [1920]

                                                      S-143 - Van Camps Foods 39' Yw #23140 [1920]

                                                      S-145 - Yakima Valley Apples 40' Yw #9203 [1928]

                                                      S-147 - Decker Iowana Hams 40' #2532 [1925]

                                                      S-149 - Great A&P Tea Co. 40' Yw #23099 [1920]

                                                      S-151 - Stokely Foods 40' Yw #12933 [1919]

                                                      S-153 - Carnation Wheat 40' Yw #23099 [1920]

                                                      S-154 - Noack & Sons Poultry 40' Yw #3012 [1920]

                                                      S-155 - ASCO Milk 40' Wt #1206 [1923]

                                                      S-171 - Hamm Brewing Co. Yw #? [1925]

                                                      S-172 - Jelkes Good Luck Foods 40' Yw #10802 [1917]

                                                      S-173 - Cincinnatti Abattoir Co. Wt 40' #214 [1895]

                                                      S-183 - Meeters Sour Kraut 41' Yw #? [1930]

                                                      S-194 - I.G.A. Food Stores 40' Yw #16817 [1932]

                                                      45' Express Reefers:

                                                      S-27 -- Hood's Milk Express 45' Coach Gn #203 [1918]

                                                      S-62 -- Dairymen's League Express 45' Wt #768 [1927]

                                                      S-206 - Milky Way Express 45' Gn #? [date?]

                                                      This wraps it up for these types of cars. There were several die-
                                                      cast side express reefers made also, all using the same catalog side
                                                      numbers, although one came pre-painted which is noted.

                                                      50' Steel Side Express Reefers (w/S-522 Cast Sides), came as kits
                                                      only:

                                                      #K-9 --- PRR Express Reefer 50' Tuscan Red (Factory Painted) #DECALS
                                                      [1936]

                                                      #K-91 -- G.A.R.X. 50' Coach Green #(DECALS) [1936]

                                                      #K-191 - Railway Express Agency 50' Lite Gn #(DECALS) [1936]

                                                      #K-192 - Illinois Central 50' Pullman Gn #(DECALS) [1936]

                                                      #K-193 - Northern Pacific 50' Pullman Gn #(DECALS) [1936]

                                                      A good number of other die-cast-side cars were available of all
                                                      different types.

                                                      Colors for the first series of reefers listed below:

                                                      S-15 Yw, S-30 Yw, S-31 Yw, S-37 Yw, S-38 Yw, S-46 Yw, S-50 Yw, S-57
                                                      Yw, S-58 Yw, S-60 Yw, S-73 Yw, S-83 Yw, S-93 Yw, S-99 Yw, S- 101 Yw,
                                                      S-101S Wt, S-107 Yw, S-108 Yw, S-111 Yw, S-112 Yw, S-119 Gy, S-122
                                                      Yw, S-124 Rd, S-128 Yw, S-130 Yw, S-132 Yw, S-133 Yw, S-134 Yw, S-136
                                                      Wt, S-137 Gn/Bl, S-146 Gy, S-148 Yw, S-156 Br, S-159 Rd, S-160 Yw, S-
                                                      170 Yw, S-179 Rd, S-180 Gn, S-184 Yw, S-185 Yw, S-186 Gy, S-187 4-
                                                      Color, S-195 Gn, S-199 Gy

                                                      Okay, that will do it on the box cars and reefers. Ray Wetzel






                                                      S-
                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8472 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/28/2009
                                                      Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                      Thanks. I know that a lot of the early electric locos used big motors
                                                      driving a jack-shaft like this one, or like the LGB "Krokodil" --I have seen
                                                      them painted PRR on some garden railways. gj
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:46 AM
                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric


                                                      >
                                                      >>
                                                      >> The boxcabs that came from the GN (their Y-1 class) became "FF-2" or
                                                      >> possibly FF-6 (not positive of the number, but I think they had earlier
                                                      >> 2-6-6-2's)
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      > FF-2 .... they were numbered #1 - up , as orphans who were supposed to
                                                      > have a short life. The FF-1 was an experimental side rod monster that
                                                      > was not repeated, pic attached.
                                                      >
                                                      > Gerold
                                                      >
                                                      > ------------------------------------
                                                      >
                                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >


                                                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                                                      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.14/1920 - Release Date: 1/27/2009
                                                      6:15 PM
                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8473 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/28/2009
                                                      Subject: Re: Red Ball Reefer Sides part 3
                                                      A couple of references on the private owner reefers--"Refrigerator Car Color
                                                      Guide" by Gene Green from Morning Sun (Gene is an old friend of mine) and
                                                      another just out from Signature Press-- "Billboard Refrigerator Cars" by
                                                      Richard Hendrickson and Edward Kaminski. Both have lots of pictures, the
                                                      Signature press one is mostly B&W with a small color section in the back.
                                                      gj

                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:05 AM
                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball Reefer Sides part 3


                                                      > Finishing up with the last of the Red Ball Refrigerator sides. These
                                                      > are also Billboard reefers, as were most of them. These sides were
                                                      > used with Truss-Rod reefers which used EITHER Arch-Bar or Bettendorf
                                                      > trucks. BTW, all of the complete kit catalog numbers are the same,
                                                      > as the car-side set numbers, except that the prefix was "K" instead
                                                      > of "S". The kits were sold both with or without trucks, depending on
                                                      > the hobbyist's preference.
                                                      >
                                                      > Truss-Rod Billboard Reefers:
                                                      >
                                                      > S-18 -- Phoenix Cheese 38' Yw & Br #23237 [1915]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-20 -- Pluto water 40' Wt #2687 [1927]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-32 -- Pabst-ett Cheese 40' Yw #23248 [1919]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-34 -- Paige Milk 40' Yw #1829 [1923]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-40 -- Ralston Purina Feeds 42' #5507 [1927]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-43 -- Northern Bananas 40' Yw #7103 [1912]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-80 -- Doggie Dinner 40' Yw #60129 [1910]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-85 -- Raths Black Hawk Ham 40' Bl & Wt #208 [1935]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-92 -- Birkshire Ham & Bacon 40' Rd & Yw #? [1910]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-94 -- Carnation Milk 40' Yw #23214 [1907]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-95 -- Narragansett Ale 40' Yw #11 [1910]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-129 - Sugar Creek Butter 40' Yw #45063
                                                      >
                                                      > S-135 - Mollhaney Butter 41' Yw #4801 [1913]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-138 - Coors Golden Beer 41' Wt #5423 [1918]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-142 - N.A.D.X. Pep Eggs 40' Yw #6001 [1920]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-143 - Van Camps Foods 39' Yw #23140 [1920]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-145 - Yakima Valley Apples 40' Yw #9203 [1928]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-147 - Decker Iowana Hams 40' #2532 [1925]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-149 - Great A&P Tea Co. 40' Yw #23099 [1920]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-151 - Stokely Foods 40' Yw #12933 [1919]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-153 - Carnation Wheat 40' Yw #23099 [1920]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-154 - Noack & Sons Poultry 40' Yw #3012 [1920]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-155 - ASCO Milk 40' Wt #1206 [1923]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-171 - Hamm Brewing Co. Yw #? [1925]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-172 - Jelkes Good Luck Foods 40' Yw #10802 [1917]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-173 - Cincinnatti Abattoir Co. Wt 40' #214 [1895]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-183 - Meeters Sour Kraut 41' Yw #? [1930]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-194 - I.G.A. Food Stores 40' Yw #16817 [1932]
                                                      >
                                                      > 45' Express Reefers:
                                                      >
                                                      > S-27 -- Hood's Milk Express 45' Coach Gn #203 [1918]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-62 -- Dairymen's League Express 45' Wt #768 [1927]
                                                      >
                                                      > S-206 - Milky Way Express 45' Gn #? [date?]
                                                      >
                                                      > This wraps it up for these types of cars. There were several die-
                                                      > cast side express reefers made also, all using the same catalog side
                                                      > numbers, although one came pre-painted which is noted.
                                                      >
                                                      > 50' Steel Side Express Reefers (w/S-522 Cast Sides), came as kits
                                                      > only:
                                                      >
                                                      > #K-9 --- PRR Express Reefer 50' Tuscan Red (Factory Painted) #DECALS
                                                      > [1936]
                                                      >
                                                      > #K-91 -- G.A.R.X. 50' Coach Green #(DECALS) [1936]
                                                      >
                                                      > #K-191 - Railway Express Agency 50' Lite Gn #(DECALS) [1936]
                                                      >
                                                      > #K-192 - Illinois Central 50' Pullman Gn #(DECALS) [1936]
                                                      >
                                                      > #K-193 - Northern Pacific 50' Pullman Gn #(DECALS) [1936]
                                                      >
                                                      > A good number of other die-cast-side cars were available of all
                                                      > different types.
                                                      >
                                                      > Colors for the first series of reefers listed below:
                                                      >
                                                      > S-15 Yw, S-30 Yw, S-31 Yw, S-37 Yw, S-38 Yw, S-46 Yw, S-50 Yw, S-57
                                                      > Yw, S-58 Yw, S-60 Yw, S-73 Yw, S-83 Yw, S-93 Yw, S-99 Yw, S- 101 Yw,
                                                      > S-101S Wt, S-107 Yw, S-108 Yw, S-111 Yw, S-112 Yw, S-119 Gy, S-122
                                                      > Yw, S-124 Rd, S-128 Yw, S-130 Yw, S-132 Yw, S-133 Yw, S-134 Yw, S-136
                                                      > Wt, S-137 Gn/Bl, S-146 Gy, S-148 Yw, S-156 Br, S-159 Rd, S-160 Yw, S-
                                                      > 170 Yw, S-179 Rd, S-180 Gn, S-184 Yw, S-185 Yw, S-186 Gy, S-187 4-
                                                      > Color, S-195 Gn, S-199 Gy
                                                      >
                                                      > Okay, that will do it on the box cars and reefers. Ray Wetzel
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > S-
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > ------------------------------------
                                                      >
                                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >


                                                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                      Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                                                      Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.14/1920 - Release Date: 1/27/2009
                                                      6:15 PM
                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8474 From: Jim Snyder Date: 1/29/2009
                                                      Subject: A New Day, New Life!!!
                                                      I have been bouncing around this crazy hobby since most of this stuff was very young, if
                                                      not new! I have managed to accumulate quite a number of brass and other models
                                                      throughout the years... Some of the best memories I have are those with my Dad, building
                                                      a 4' X 8' version of 'The Great Eastern Trunk' from an Atlas plan. I ultimately was bitten by
                                                      the narrow-gauge bug- On3- and now have that stuff piled to the ceiling!!! Then a friend
                                                      gave me a few boxes of what almost constituted a museum of early HO(-see "Photos"...).
                                                      Something caught! My roster now consists of Varney and MDC. I build some, buy some. I
                                                      bought a gorgeopus MDC AT&SF 4-4-2 on eBay that could win contests!

                                                      Most of my brass is now 'put up', as they say. I am building a latter-day Varney 4-6-2-
                                                      with a brass boiler. I found- finally- some Walthers tinplate AT&SF pass cars and a bunch
                                                      of Ambroid and Ulrich kits to keepme busy. It's fun stuff! Yeah... there're some brass
                                                      locos in there. And Kadee Ps cars(-beautious!). Every once in a while I spot somethingI
                                                      need!

                                                      Last week my cousin in Chicago sent me the Suydam Black Bart mine that my Dad had
                                                      used to teach me soldering fifty years ago! I had sold them the orig. HO layout to finance
                                                      my first On3 engine- a PFM C&S 2-6-0. Incidentally, I had wanted one of those moguls
                                                      "for old times' sake'... so I watched on eBay... Finally, I found one in 1999- got it as a
                                                      basket case for $375, about four times what I had paid new in 1964. I re-motored and
                                                      painted it. Then, 7 years later, I noticed the foam getting soupy, so I tore it out...
                                                      revealing my name and address in Kankakee, Illinois! Yup... it was my old loco!

                                                      So this "Old time" stuff is coming along! I DID just pay $1,000 for a couple new MMI
                                                      K37s... But meanwhile, I'll put up with a crumbling pilot or driver.

                                                      I'll send some photos!
                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8475 From: Charles Windes Date: 1/29/2009
                                                      Subject: Re: Varney 4-8-4 GG1

                                                      Bill
                                                       I always would liked to have had one of them, anyone of them, my Hoddy shop dealer said I did not want one because they were not true to scale and would look bad(I hate people who tell me what I don't want).
                                                      Charlie W.
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: SFLYERCRAZY@...
                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney 4-8-4 GG1
                                                      Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:05:26 EST

                                                      ooopss..my bad..I have the latter 4-6-6-4..not the 4-8-4 one...Bill

                                                      A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

                                                      --
                                                      Be Yourself @ mail.com!
                                                      Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
                                                      Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!
                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8476 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 1/29/2009
                                                      Subject: Re: A New Day, New Life!!!
                                                      Attachments :
                                                        Hi Jim,

                                                        Not to jump into a conversation already started, but you mentioned that you are running On3. While I am an HO scaler for the most part, recently I scratch built an On3 4-4-0 #21 Cab Forward engine as used on the North Pacific Coast RR. around 1900. The locomotive is powered by a can motor with a NWSL idler type gearbox that drives the rear driver axle. It is all .15" sheet brass construction with added details from Precision Scale and fully functioning valve gear (photo attached). Most of the group has probably seen the unpowered HOn3 version die cast kit by Keith Wiseman (Wiseman Model Service) currently selling on Ebay. No others are commercially produced.
                                                        Sorry to veer off topic, Brian L.


                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: Jim Snyder <joegideon@...>
                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 12:49 pm
                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] A New Day, New Life!!!

                                                        I have been bouncing around this crazy hobby since most of this stuff was very young, if
                                                        not new! I have managed to accumulate quite a number of brass and other models
                                                        throughout the years... Some of the best memories I have are those with my Dad, building
                                                        a 4' X 8' version of 'The Great Eastern Trunk' from an Atlas plan. I ultimately was bitten by
                                                        the narrow-gauge bug- On3- and now have that stuff piled to the ceiling!!! Then a friend
                                                        gave me a few boxes of what almost constituted a museum of early HO(-see "Photos"...) .
                                                        Something caught! My roster now consists of Varney and MDC. I build some, buy some. I
                                                        bought a gorgeopus MDC AT&SF 4-4-2 on eBay that could win contests!

                                                        Most of my brass is now 'put up', as they say. I am building a latter-day Varney 4-6-2-
                                                        with a brass boiler. I found- finally- some Walthers tinplate AT&SF pass cars and a bunch
                                                        of Ambroid and Ulrich kits to keepme busy. It's fun stuff! Yeah... there're some brass
                                                        locos in there. And Kadee Ps cars(-beautious! ). Every once in a while I spot somethingI
                                                        need!

                                                        Last week my cousin in Chicago sent me the Suydam Black Bart mine that my Dad had
                                                        used to teach me soldering fifty years ago! I had sold them the orig. HO layout to finance
                                                        my first On3 engine- a PFM C&S 2-6-0. Incidentally, I had wanted one of those moguls
                                                        "for old times' sake'... so I watched on eBay... Finally, I found one in 1999- got it as a
                                                        basket case for $375, about four times what I had paid new in 1964. I re-motored and
                                                        painted it. Then, 7 years later, I noticed the foam getting soupy, so I tore it out...
                                                        revealing my name and address in Kankakee, Illinois! Yup... it was my old loco!

                                                        So this "Old time" stuff is coming along! I DID just pay $1,000 for a couple new MMI
                                                        K37s... But meanwhile, I'll put up with a crumbling pilot or driver.

                                                        I'll send some photos!
                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8477 From: Bill Wright Date: 1/30/2009
                                                        Subject: Stevens Palace Live Poultry Car in RMC
                                                        The Collectors Consist column in the February issue of Railroad Model
                                                        Craftman has a photograph and a paragraph about a Stevens Palace Live
                                                        Poultry Car. The car has lithographed sides. The maker and era of the
                                                        model is unknown. Has anyone figured out who the kit maker was or when
                                                        it was produced?

                                                        Bill Wright
                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8478 From: Charles Windes Date: 1/30/2009
                                                        Subject: Re: Sharp indeedBrianIt is sharp indeed very nice.Cahrl;ie
                                                        Brian
                                                        It is sharp indeed very nice.
                                                        Charlie W.

                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                        From: bslook@...
                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A New Day, New Life!!!
                                                        Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:57:40 -0500

                                                        Hi Jim,

                                                        Not to jump into a conversation already started, but you mentioned that you are running On3. While I am an HO scaler for the most part, recently I scratch built an On3 4-4-0 #21 Cab Forward engine as used on the North Pacific Coast RR. around 1900. The locomotive is powered by a can motor with a NWSL idler type gearbox that drives the rear driver axle. It is all .15" sheet brass construction with added details from Precision Scale and fully functioning valve gear (photo attached). Most of the group has probably seen the unpowered HOn3 version die cast kit by Keith Wiseman (Wiseman Model Service) currently selling on Ebay. No others are commercially produced.
                                                        Sorry to veer off topic, Brian L.


                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: Jim Snyder <joegideon@...>
                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 12:49 pm
                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] A New Day, New Life!!!

                                                        I have been bouncing around this crazy hobby since most of this stuff was very young, if
                                                        not new! I have managed to accumulate quite a number of brass and other models
                                                        throughout the years... Some of the best memories I have are those with my Dad, building
                                                        a 4' X 8' version of 'The Great Eastern Trunk' from an Atlas plan. I ultimately was bitten by
                                                        the narrow-gauge bug- On3- and now have that stuff piled to the ceiling!!! Then a friend
                                                        gave me a few boxes of what almost constituted a museum of early HO(-see "Photos"...) .
                                                        Something caught! My roster now consists of Varney and MDC. I build some, buy some. I
                                                        bought a gorgeopus MDC AT&SF 4-4-2 on eBay that could win contests!

                                                        Most of my brass is now 'put up', as they say. I am building a latter-day Varney 4-6-2-
                                                        with a brass boiler. I found- finally- some Walthers tinplate AT&SF pass cars and a bunch
                                                        of Ambroid and Ulrich kits to keepme busy. It's fun stuff! Yeah... there're some brass
                                                        locos in there. And Kadee Ps cars(-beautious! ). Every once in a while I spot somethingI
                                                        need!

                                                        Last week my cousin in Chicago sent me the Suydam Black Bart mine that my Dad had
                                                        used to teach me soldering fifty years ago! I had sold them the orig. HO layout to finance
                                                        my first On3 engine- a PFM C&S 2-6-0. Incidentally, I had wanted one of those moguls
                                                        "for old times' sake'... so I watched on eBay... Finally, I found one in 1999- got it as a
                                                        basket case for $375, about four times what I had paid new in 1964. I re-motored and
                                                        painted it. Then, 7 years later, I noticed the foam getting soupy, so I tore it out...
                                                        revealing my name and address in Kankakee, Illinois! Yup... it was my old loco!

                                                        So this "Old time" stuff is coming along! I DID just pay $1,000 for a couple new MMI
                                                        K37s... But meanwhile, I'll put up with a crumbling pilot or driver.

                                                        I'll send some photos!

                                                        << North Pacific Coast RR #21 On3 Scratch Built 2008.jpg >>

                                                        --
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                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8479 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/30/2009
                                                        Subject: source
                                                        Does Bowser still make the Pittman model motors?  Anyone have an e-address for them?
                                                         
                                                        gj
                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8480 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 1/30/2009
                                                        Subject: Re: source
                                                        Yes, see the link below. Regards, Brian L.

                                                        http://www.bowser-trains.com/Prices/Price%20List.txt

                                                        http://www.bowser-trains.com/Main%20Miscellaneous.htm


                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 7:42 pm
                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] source

                                                        Does Bowser still make the Pittman model motors?  Anyone have an e-address for them?
                                                         
                                                        gj
                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8481 From: Jim Waterman Date: 1/30/2009
                                                        Subject: Re: Varney PRE WAR Electric
                                                        Bill
                                                         
                                                        I can send you a picture of my NH GG-1, but I can't sell it, because, believe it or not, I won a 3rd place prize at the NMRA convention in San Francisco for 'locomotive performance' with it.
                                                         
                                                        I still have the framed certificate for it. A favorite memory of mine from my childhood. It really didn't run that well, but it happened to match the top speed within a mile per hour and had good performance on a steep grade. Low speed was it's downfall.
                                                         
                                                         
                                                         
                                                        Jim
                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8482 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 1/31/2009
                                                        Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
                                                        Hello,

                                                        This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                        a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
                                                        group.

                                                        File : /V List Red Ball cars.xls
                                                        Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                        Description : List of Red Ball kits

                                                        You can access this file at the URL:
                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Red%20Ball%20cars.xls

                                                        To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                                                        http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles

                                                        Regards,

                                                        chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8483 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/31/2009
                                                        Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Red Ball Reefer Sides part 3

                                                        Ray,

                                                        I have updated the file and think I got it all.

                                                        Take care,

                                                         

                                                        Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                         

                                                        From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                        Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:06 AM
                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Red Ball Reefer Sides part 3

                                                         

                                                        Finishing up with the last of the Red Ball Refrigerator sides. These
                                                        are also Billboard reefers, as were most of them. These sides were
                                                        used with Truss-Rod reefers which used EITHER Arch-Bar or Bettendorf
                                                        trucks. BTW, all of the complete kit catalog numbers are the same,
                                                        as the car-side set numbers, except that the prefix was "K" instead

                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8484 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/31/2009
                                                        Subject: kit or project ?
                                                        Attachments :
                                                                      A few days ago I won an item on Ebay that  (1) was unsure what prototype it was   (2) was it a kit, an already assembled manufactured item or some ones project. Thanks to many who identified it I know what the engine is meant to represent.
                                                               The item arrived today and it still makes me wonder. It still could be a kit that was assembled. Who ever did it was very good at soldering as you will see as I describe the construction. I wish I was that good. Yet it could still be "parts" the builder used to make his/her project.
                                                                The nose of the item from behind the first side window is cast and soldered to the rest. The skirt/pilot on the front under the cab is cast and attached by little screws. The main body is sheet brass. The frame is solid brass pieces soldered together and the back is a solid piece of brass. The construction that fascinates me the most are (1)   All ribbing on the sides of the body are separate little pieces of brass soldered on.  (2) The cab windows plus the windows on the sides of the body are all pieces that have been shaped (the cab windows) and soldered on.  Inside the windows on the sides of the body have brass pieces soldered on that allow you to "slip" in window material and it will be held in place   (3) The detail on top has been soldered on. Every (all 8) exhaust and air scoops are separate pieces that have been soldered into the created openings. (4)  The top of the cab has an added piece of brass shaped that covers the joint of the cast brass cabin and the sheet brass body. It is attached by little screws that let it lay on the tops of the front window frames and is soldered there.  (4) The hanging ladders and including the ladder material located on the body under the middle side window are soldered on.
                                                              I have a feeling this model is a couple of years old since the lamp for lighting the two headlights is very large. It definitely is not a grain of wheat bulb. This engine will be finished as I find some missing drive parts.
                                                            SEAN N    I'LL BE CONTACTING YOU TO FIND, HOPEFULLY, SOME MISSING COMPONENTS.
                                                            Whether a kit now assemble, a manufactured item or some ones project it will be fun and interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8485 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/31/2009
                                                          Subject: little addition to new pieces
                                                             I want to add  to my description of the new engine I got from Ebay is that the roof and sides of the body are one piece and the roof looks pre rounded with no kinks.
                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8486 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/31/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: Red Ball car sides

                                                          This is now added.

                                                           

                                                          Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                           

                                                          From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                          Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:13 PM
                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Red Ball car sides

                                                           

                                                          As I need to break down this list anyhow, as I continue, I thought
                                                          I'd separate them into categories as to what type car (what under-
                                                          frame was used, and with it, what style trucks) these sides were used
                                                          on. While most of Red Ball's cars were older style, I'll also
                                                          include their prototype built dates, in brackets (but won't separate
                                                          them in that manner), to better determine the period these various
                                                          cars were used in -- which I probably should have done from the
                                                          start.

                                                          I'll include the box car built dates here, and while I'm briefly
                                                          getting back to the box cars, I see I left out a Special Category
                                                          (Historical) wood box car I'll also include here:

                                                          S-189 Friendship 34' Br & Wt [1884] 1870-Wood-Beam freight trucks

                                                          Some hobbyists may also include the Overland Oil car as a box car,
                                                          only because of its similar configuration. This car was constructed
                                                          as a box car type but with a low-slung pan underneath to contain oil.

                                                          S-126 Overland Oil & Transportation 35' Red #101 [1890] Arch Bar

                                                          Note, that the color Orange (Or) was inadvertantly omitted, which
                                                          will be used for some reefers. Going forward, I'll include the built
                                                          dates on all reefers, but for now I'll go back to include these dates
                                                          for the box cars. All box cars used arch bar trucks (except for
                                                          friendship) and with the exception of S-2 DM&IR and S-5 SL-SW which
                                                          used Standard Bettendorf trucks.

                                                          The built dates for all box cars are:

                                                          S-2 - [1907], S-3 - [1930], S-5 - [1940], S-23 - [1924], S-24 -
                                                          [1892], S-26 - [1892], S-28 - [1941], S-53 - [1939], S-54 - [1875], S-
                                                          55 - [1936], S-56 - [1900], S-65 - [1937], S-67 - [1943], S-69 -
                                                          [1912], S-74 - [1894], S-75 - [1890], S-76 - [1908], S-77 - [1892], S-
                                                          84 - [1910], S- 88 - [1897], S-102 - [1893], S-103 - [1902], S-106 -
                                                          [1896], S-109 - [1902], S-110 - [1870], S-113 - [1919], S-120 -
                                                          [1898], S-121 - [1893], S-139 - [1914], S-140 - [1917], S-141 -
                                                          [1930], S-161 - [1900] and S-168 - [1890].

                                                          Next, to come; -- Red Ball reefer sides. Ray Wetzel

                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8487 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/31/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: kit or project ?
                                                          could we be lucky enough that the builder might have "signed his work" on the inside?
                                                          If nobody else does, I could look thru my MR files tomorrow--see if a kit is listed.   gj
                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 11:20 AM
                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] kit or project ?

                                                                      A few days ago I won an item on Ebay that  (1) was unsure what prototype it was   (2) was it a kit, an already assembled manufactured item or some ones project. Thanks to many who identified it I know what the engine is meant to represent.
                                                               The item arrived today and it still makes me wonder. It still could be a kit that was assembled. Who ever did it was very good at soldering as you will see as I describe the construction. I wish I was that good. Yet it could still be "parts" the builder used to make his/her project.
                                                                The nose of the item from behind the first side window is cast and soldered to the rest. The skirt/pilot on the front under the cab is cast and attached by little screws. The main body is sheet brass. The frame is solid brass pieces soldered together and the back is a solid piece of brass. The construction that fascinates me the most are (1)   All ribbing on the sides of the body are separate little pieces of brass soldered on.  (2) The cab windows plus the windows on the sides of the body are all pieces that have been shaped (the cab windows) and soldered on.  Inside the windows on the sides of the body have brass pieces soldered on that allow you to "slip" in window material and it will be held in place   (3) The detail on top has been soldered on. Every (all 8) exhaust and air scoops are separate pieces that have been soldered into the created openings. (4)  The top of the cab has an added piece of brass shaped that covers the joint of the cast brass cabin and the sheet brass body. It is attached by little screws that let it lay on the tops of the front window frames and is soldered there.  (4) The hanging ladders and including the ladder material located on the body under the middle side window are soldered on.
                                                              I have a feeling this model is a couple of years old since the lamp for lighting the two headlights is very large. It definitely is not a grain of wheat bulb. This engine will be finished as I find some missing drive parts.
                                                            SEAN N    I'LL BE CONTACTING YOU TO FIND, HOPEFULLY, SOME MISSING COMPONENTS.
                                                            Whether a kit now assemble, a manufactured item or some ones project it will be fun and interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                       Jim H


                                                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                          Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.16/1926 - Release Date: 01/30/09 17:31:00
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8488 From: nvrr49 Date: 1/31/2009
                                                          Subject: Mantua Truck conversion
                                                          I have a Mantua tank car that, I assume, has original talgo trucks, and
                                                          I want to convert to body mount couplers. I would like to keep the
                                                          original trucks, but I don't know how to take the truck apart to cut
                                                          the tongue off.

                                                          The truck has a metal tongue that connects the two side frames. It
                                                          looks like I should just be able to pry/pull it apart, but I want
                                                          someone to give me direction before I try.
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8489 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/31/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: kit or project ?
                                                              I wish it was signed.  Would make it easier. There are NO identifying marks of any kind either. I doubt it's of Japanese origin because construction is both soldered and screwed together. The "pieces " look like a kit that was assembled but yet a lot of the construction seems to say a builders project unless he/she was modifying it also. I have no paperwork, books catalogs, etc that would show this as a manufactured kit but believe me I have found out one thing about vintage HO and putting my collection together. Never say never.
                                                                                              Jim H
                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          From: Glenn476
                                                          Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 7:39 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] kit or project ?

                                                          could we be lucky enough that the builder might have "signed his work" on the inside?
                                                          If nobody else does, I could look thru my MR files tomorrow--see if a kit is listed.   gj
                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 11:20 AM
                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] kit or project ?

                                                                      A few days ago I won an item on Ebay that  (1) was unsure what prototype it was   (2) was it a kit, an already assembled manufactured item or some ones project. Thanks to many who identified it I know what the engine is meant to represent.
                                                               The item arrived today and it still makes me wonder. It still could be a kit that was assembled. Who ever did it was very good at soldering as you will see as I describe the construction. I wish I was that good. Yet it could still be "parts" the builder used to make his/her project.
                                                                The nose of the item from behind the first side window is cast and soldered to the rest. The skirt/pilot on the front under the cab is cast and attached by little screws. The main body is sheet brass. The frame is solid brass pieces soldered together and the back is a solid piece of brass. The construction that fascinates me the most are (1)   All ribbing on the sides of the body are separate little pieces of brass soldered on.  (2) The cab windows plus the windows on the sides of the body are all pieces that have been shaped (the cab windows) and soldered on.  Inside the windows on the sides of the body have brass pieces soldered on that allow you to "slip" in window material and it will be held in place   (3) The detail on top has been soldered on. Every (all 8) exhaust and air scoops are separate pieces that have been soldered into the created openings. (4)  The top of the cab has an added piece of brass shaped that covers the joint of the cast brass cabin and the sheet brass body. It is attached by little screws that let it lay on the tops of the front window frames and is soldered there.  (4) The hanging ladders and including the ladder material located on the body under the middle side window are soldered on.
                                                              I have a feeling this model is a couple of years old since the lamp for lighting the two headlights is very large. It definitely is not a grain of wheat bulb. This engine will be finished as I find some missing drive parts.
                                                            SEAN N    I'LL BE CONTACTING YOU TO FIND, HOPEFULLY, SOME MISSING COMPONENTS.
                                                            Whether a kit now assemble, a manufactured item or some ones project it will be fun and interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                       Jim H


                                                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                          Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.16/1926 - Release Date: 01/30/09 17:31:00
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8490 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/31/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: Mantua Truck conversion
                                                          A jeweler's saw might be the best here--I think those bolsters are aluminum
                                                          so use a coarse blade. These saws cut on the pull stroke. The blade can be
                                                          inserted with the truck assembled--it needs to be tight. Don't take the
                                                          truck apart--chances are you'll never get it back together. gj
                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          From: "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...>
                                                          To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                          Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 4:15 PM
                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Truck conversion


                                                          >I have a Mantua tank car that, I assume, has original talgo trucks, and
                                                          > I want to convert to body mount couplers. I would like to keep the
                                                          > original trucks, but I don't know how to take the truck apart to cut
                                                          > the tongue off.
                                                          >
                                                          > The truck has a metal tongue that connects the two side frames. It
                                                          > looks like I should just be able to pry/pull it apart, but I want
                                                          > someone to give me direction before I try.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > ------------------------------------
                                                          >
                                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >


                                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                          Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.16/1926 - Release Date: 01/30/09
                                                          17:31:00
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8491 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 1/31/2009
                                                          Subject: American Beauty Line Passenger Cars
                                                          I have a box full of partially completed American Beauty Line
                                                          passenger cars from the late 50's/early 60's.

                                                          These are full length smooth side cars, with stamped steel sides and
                                                          wooden roof/undercarriage.

                                                          I believe that there is enough material to build almost 20 cars here.

                                                          Some of the sides have been painted to KCS and MoPac/T&P (maybe 8 cars
                                                          each), and there are some that are original in Pennsylvania (probably
                                                          5 cars worth). The roofs and undercarriages are painted and assembled,
                                                          but the end must be glued, then the sides to make complete cars.

                                                          There are also interior kits included from Walthers and others, and
                                                          new Central Valley trucks (well, they were new in 1961.) and Kadee
                                                          body mounted couplers (MK-6's).

                                                          Can anyone tell me more about this maker, and does anyone have any
                                                          interest in any of it?

                                                          Thanks

                                                          Jim
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8492 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/31/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: Mantua Truck conversion
                                                          What coupler are you going to use?  What radius of curve will you be operating on?  What kind of coupler is on it now?  You will not be able to disassemble the truck beyond removing the wheels/axles without destroying it.  Cutting the tongue off can be a difficult task because of clearances and difficulty of holding the truck.

                                                          Don in VA
                                                          ===================================================

                                                          nvrr49 wrote:

                                                          I have a Mantua tank car that, I assume, has original talgo trucks, and
                                                          I want to convert to body mount couplers. I would like to keep the
                                                          original trucks, but I don't know how to take the truck apart to cut
                                                          the tongue off.

                                                          The truck has a metal tongue that connects the two side frames. It
                                                          looks like I should just be able to pry/pull it apart, but I want
                                                          someone to give me direction before I try.

                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8493 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/31/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: American Beauty Line Passenger Cars
                                                          Sounds like just right to build a first-year Amtrak train--8^)
                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          From: "jimwatermanboeing" <Watermaj@...>
                                                          To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                          Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 6:10 PM
                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] American Beauty Line Passenger Cars


                                                          >I have a box full of partially completed American Beauty Line
                                                          > passenger cars from the late 50's/early 60's.
                                                          >
                                                          > These are full length smooth side cars, with stamped steel sides and
                                                          > wooden roof/undercarriage.
                                                          >
                                                          > I believe that there is enough material to build almost 20 cars here.
                                                          >
                                                          > Some of the sides have been painted to KCS and MoPac/T&P (maybe 8 cars
                                                          > each), and there are some that are original in Pennsylvania (probably
                                                          > 5 cars worth). The roofs and undercarriages are painted and assembled,
                                                          > but the end must be glued, then the sides to make complete cars.
                                                          >
                                                          > There are also interior kits included from Walthers and others, and
                                                          > new Central Valley trucks (well, they were new in 1961.) and Kadee
                                                          > body mounted couplers (MK-6's).
                                                          >
                                                          > Can anyone tell me more about this maker, and does anyone have any
                                                          > interest in any of it?
                                                          >
                                                          > Thanks
                                                          >
                                                          > Jim
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > ------------------------------------
                                                          >
                                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >


                                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                          Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.16/1926 - Release Date: 01/30/09
                                                          17:31:00
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8494 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/31/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: American Beauty Line Passenger Cars
                                                                        To find out more about American Beauty passenger cars go to www.hoseeker.net  You will find some assembly sheets that actually will cover all the cars, a sheet on how to assemble the sprung trucks that you assembled and some other material.  If you need some of the original American Beauty I have about 7 sets.
                                                                                                                          Jim H
                                                                            
                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 9:10 PM
                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] American Beauty Line Passenger Cars

                                                          I have a box full of partially completed American Beauty Line
                                                          passenger cars from the late 50's/early 60's.

                                                          These are full length smooth side cars, with stamped steel sides and
                                                          wooden roof/undercarriage.

                                                          I believe that there is enough material to build almost 20 cars here.

                                                          Some of the sides have been painted to KCS and MoPac/T&P (maybe 8 cars
                                                          each), and there are some that are original in Pennsylvania (probably
                                                          5 cars worth). The roofs and undercarriages are painted and assembled,
                                                          but the end must be glued, then the sides to make complete cars.

                                                          There are also interior kits included from Walthers and others, and
                                                          new Central Valley trucks (well, they were new in 1961.) and Kadee
                                                          body mounted couplers (MK-6's).

                                                          Can anyone tell me more about this maker, and does anyone have any
                                                          interest in any of it?

                                                          Thanks

                                                          Jim

                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8495 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 1/31/2009
                                                          Subject: Removing Coupler Box from Mantua Trucks(was Mantua Truck conversion)
                                                          No problem.
                                                           
                                                          Grasp the bolster hole area firmly with a small flat-nosed pliers(to keep it flat) and bend the coupler mounting up and down repeatedly. Should not take more than a few times. This part is aluminum, as was mentioned before, and is more brittle than you'd think after about two bends.
                                                           
                                                          Done it many times myself... easier than it "sounds." (I always saved the tiny 00-90 shoulder screws for use on another project[someday...].)
                                                           
                                                          Mounting a body-mounted copler is "modeler's choice" of methods.
                                                           
                                                          Happy Modewling!
                                                           
                                                          Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8496 From: Jim Heckard Date: 1/31/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: American Beauty Line Passenger Cars
                                                                The statement should say seven sets of American Beauty TRUCKS
                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 10:47 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] American Beauty Line Passenger Cars

                                                                        To find out more about American Beauty passenger cars go to www.hoseeker. net  You will find some assembly sheets that actually will cover all the cars, a sheet on how to assemble the sprung trucks that you assembled and some other material.  If you need some of the original American Beauty I have about 7 sets.
                                                                                                                          Jim H
                                                                            
                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 9:10 PM
                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] American Beauty Line Passenger Cars

                                                          I have a box full of partially completed American Beauty Line
                                                          passenger cars from the late 50's/early 60's.

                                                          These are full length smooth side cars, with stamped steel sides and
                                                          wooden roof/undercarriage.

                                                          I believe that there is enough material to build almost 20 cars here.

                                                          Some of the sides have been painted to KCS and MoPac/T&P (maybe 8 cars
                                                          each), and there are some that are original in Pennsylvania (probably
                                                          5 cars worth). The roofs and undercarriages are painted and assembled,
                                                          but the end must be glued, then the sides to make complete cars.

                                                          There are also interior kits included from Walthers and others, and
                                                          new Central Valley trucks (well, they were new in 1961.) and Kadee
                                                          body mounted couplers (MK-6's).

                                                          Can anyone tell me more about this maker, and does anyone have any
                                                          interest in any of it?

                                                          Thanks

                                                          Jim

                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8497 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 1/31/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: Removing Coupler Box from Mantua Trucks, p.s.
                                                          Frankly, I never really cared much for the original Mantua trucks, with their thin, sharp flanges and(usually) plastic wheels.
                                                           
                                                          The only reason I can imagine to re-use them - in retrospect after all these 40-odd years, is to maintain some semblace of the cars' vintage value. But if you are chopping it up to use body-mounted couplers(good idea!), doesn't that change the "vintage" quality anyway?
                                                           
                                                          I prefer to use better trucks nowadays - Atrhearn(or the like) with metal wheelsets. Better performance...
                                                           
                                                          Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

                                                          --- On Sat, 1/31/09, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote:
                                                          From: Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...>
                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Removing Coupler Box from Mantua Trucks(was Mantua Truck conversion)
                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Date: Saturday, January 31, 2009, 10:50 PM

                                                          No problem.
                                                           
                                                          Grasp the bolster hole area firmly with a small flat-nosed pliers(to keep it flat) and bend the coupler mounting up and down repeatedly. Should not take more than a few times. This part is aluminum, as was mentioned before, and is more brittle than you'd think after about two bends.
                                                           
                                                          Done it many times myself... easier than it "sounds." (I always saved the tiny 00-90 shoulder screws for use on another project[someday...].)
                                                           
                                                          Mounting a body-mounted coupler is "modeler's choice" of methods.
                                                           
                                                          Happy Modewling!
                                                           
                                                          Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8498 From: nvrr49 Date: 1/31/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: Removing Coupler Box from Mantua Trucks(was Mantua Truck convers
                                                          Thanks, worked like a charm. I will, however, point out that the
                                                          metal is not aluminum, as it is magnetic. And, yes I saved the small
                                                          screws too. Thanks to all.


                                                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > No problem.
                                                          >  
                                                          > Grasp the bolster hole area firmly with a small flat-nosed pliers
                                                          (to keep it flat) and bend the coupler mounting up and down
                                                          repeatedly. Should not take more than a few times. This part is
                                                          aluminum, as was mentioned before, and is more brittle than you'd
                                                          think after about two bends.
                                                          >  
                                                          > Done it many times myself... easier than it "sounds." (I always
                                                          saved the tiny 00-90 shoulder screws for use on another project
                                                          [someday...].)
                                                          >  
                                                          > Mounting a body-mounted copler is "modeler's choice" of methods.
                                                          >  
                                                          > Happy Modewling!
                                                          >  
                                                          > Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                          >
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8499 From: Mike Sloane Date: 2/1/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: Removing Coupler Box from Mantua Trucks(was Mantua Truck convers
                                                          Fred beat me to it - that is the way I removed all the coupler mounting
                                                          bars on my old Mantua trucks a LONG time ago. Those old Mantua freight
                                                          cars have stood the "test of time" pretty well over the 50+ years I have
                                                          had them. The most common problem has been broken off stirrup steps, so
                                                          I just replace them with wire stirrup steps (remember Tuttle Industries?
                                                          I think the same ones are now sold by A-line).

                                                          Mike

                                                          Fred Hultberg wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > No problem.
                                                          >
                                                          > Grasp the bolster hole area firmly with a small flat-nosed pliers(to
                                                          > keep it flat) and bend the coupler mounting up and down repeatedly.
                                                          > Should not take more than a few times. This part is aluminum, as was
                                                          > mentioned before, and is more brittle than you'd think after about two
                                                          > bends.
                                                          >
                                                          > Done it many times myself... easier than it "sounds." (I always saved
                                                          > the tiny 00-90 shoulder screws for use on another project[someday...].)
                                                          >
                                                          > Mounting a body-mounted copler is "modeler's choice" of methods.
                                                          >
                                                          > Happy Modewling!
                                                          >
                                                          > Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8500 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 2/1/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: Alloy on Mantua Truck Bolster
                                                          Huh... magnetic...
                                                           
                                                          I always thought it was aluminum, by the way it responded to handling.
                                                           
                                                          "Learn something every day..."
                                                           
                                                          Thanks.
                                                           
                                                          Fred Hultberg(resident etchng wizard, Fotocut)
                                                           

                                                          --- On Sat, 1/31/09, nvrr49 <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                          From: nvrr49 <nvrr49@...>
                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Removing Coupler Box from Mantua Trucks(was Mantua Truck conversion)
                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Date: Saturday, January 31, 2009, 11:43 PM

                                                          Thanks, worked like a charm.  I will, however, point out that the 
metal is not aluminum, as it is magnetic.  And, yes I saved the small 
screws too.  Thanks to all.

                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8501 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 2/1/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: Alloy on Mantua Truck Bolster
                                                          I have seen them made of both aluminum and steel.



                                                          --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote:

                                                          > From: Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...>
                                                          > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Alloy on Mantua Truck Bolster
                                                          > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 9:10 AM
                                                          > Huh... magnetic...
                                                          >  
                                                          > I always thought it was aluminum, by the way it responded
                                                          > to handling.
                                                          >  
                                                          > "Learn something every day..."
                                                          >  
                                                          > Thanks.
                                                          >  
                                                          > Fred Hultberg(resident etchng wizard, Fotocut)
                                                          >  
                                                          >
                                                          > --- On Sat, 1/31/09, nvrr49 <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > From: nvrr49 <nvrr49@...>
                                                          > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Removing Coupler Box from Mantua
                                                          > Trucks(was Mantua Truck conversion)
                                                          > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > Date: Saturday, January 31, 2009, 11:43 PM
                                                          >
                                                          > Thanks, worked like a charm. I will, however, point out
                                                          > that the
                                                          > metal is not aluminum, as it is magnetic. And, yes I saved
                                                          > the small
                                                          > screws too. Thanks to all.
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8502 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 2/1/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: Alloy on Mantua Truck Bolster
                                                          Ah... I have only encountered ones apparently made of Aluminum...

                                                          --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...> wrote:
                                                          From: Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...>
                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Alloy on Mantua Truck Bolster
                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 12:47 PM

                                                          I have seen them made of both aluminum and steel.



--- On Sun, 2/1/09, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote:

> From: Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Alloy on Mantua Truck Bolster
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 9:10 AM
> Huh... magnetic...
>  
> I always thought it was aluminum, by the way it responded
> to handling.
>  
> "Learn something every day..."
>  
> Thanks.
>  
> Fred Hultberg(resident etchng wizard, Fotocut)
>  
> 
> --- On Sat, 1/31/09, nvrr49 <nvrr49@...> wrote:
> 
> From: nvrr49 <nvrr49@...>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Removing Coupler Box from Mantua
> Trucks(was Mantua Truck conversion)
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, January 31, 2009, 11:43 PM
> 
> Thanks, worked like a charm.  I will, however, point out
> that the 
> metal is not aluminum, as it is magnetic.  And, yes I saved
> the small 
> screws too.  Thanks to all.


      

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                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8503 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 2/1/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: Alloy on Mantua Truck Bolster
                                                          I could be wrong but I think the ones made of aluminum were early production and the ones made of steel were made later.


                                                          --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote:

                                                          > From: Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...>
                                                          > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Alloy on Mantua Truck Bolster
                                                          > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 10:49 AM
                                                          > Ah... I have only encountered ones apparently made of
                                                          > Aluminum...
                                                          >
                                                          > --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Ray Marinaccio
                                                          > <raymarinaccio@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > From: Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...>
                                                          > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Alloy on Mantua Truck Bolster
                                                          > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 12:47 PM
                                                          >
                                                          > I have seen them made of both aluminum and steel.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Fred Hultberg
                                                          > <fhultberg@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > > From: Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...>
                                                          > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Alloy on Mantua Truck Bolster
                                                          > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > > Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 9:10 AM
                                                          > > Huh... magnetic...
                                                          > >  
                                                          > > I always thought it was aluminum, by the way it
                                                          > responded
                                                          > > to handling.
                                                          > >  
                                                          > > "Learn something every day..."
                                                          > >  
                                                          > > Thanks.
                                                          > >  
                                                          > > Fred Hultberg(resident etchng wizard, Fotocut)
                                                          > >  
                                                          > >
                                                          > > --- On Sat, 1/31/09, nvrr49 <nvrr49@...>
                                                          > wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > From: nvrr49 <nvrr49@...>
                                                          > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Removing Coupler Box from
                                                          > Mantua
                                                          > > Trucks(was Mantua Truck conversion)
                                                          > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > > Date: Saturday, January 31, 2009, 11:43 PM
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Thanks, worked like a charm. I will, however, point
                                                          > out
                                                          > > that the
                                                          > > metal is not aluminum, as it is magnetic. And, yes I
                                                          > saved
                                                          > > the small
                                                          > > screws too. Thanks to all.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > ------------------------------------
                                                          >
                                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8504 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/2/2009
                                                          Subject: New Vids
                                                          Hi All,
                                                           
                                                          Its that time once again, I've been busy making new videos, too bad I can't seem to get this busy working on the railroad, but its been cold lately.
                                                           
                                                          I finally have a Doodlebug, thanks to my friend Dave, this unit is absolutely beautiful, even if it is made by Bachman, so this first video has plenty of Doodlebug shots, as well as my F3's pulling a stock train.
                                                           
                                                           
                                                          In this next video, we go back to the V scale Roscoe Snyder and Pacific, I wanted to go back in time a little bit, and run the FT's that I downloaded long ago, I simply don't run these enough, I am also totally enjoying the revamped versions of the F7's that were done by norfolksouther37, these are the old Auran F7 redone with animated trucks, fans, appearence, and also include the Mars light.
                                                           
                                                           
                                                          On this next video, I wanted to go a little more modern, so I tried my hand at putting a 1970's era train into the picture, again we are running on the RS&P coming into Hermleigh, Texas.
                                                           
                                                           
                                                          On this one, I continue the Texas Steamfest 2009, old F units count as honorary steam engines, so it starts off with a revamped F7, this time done in Southern's classic Crescent colors.
                                                           
                                                           
                                                          Enjoy, and remember to watch these in high quality, the link is right below the video player on each of the videos, something I guess that youtube is trying, it works really well if my comp was capable of doing HD, it also works well with clearing up a lot of the fuzziness that seems to permeate these vid files.....:o)
                                                           
                                                          Gary W

                                                           
                                                          Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8505 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/3/2009
                                                          Subject: Denver Club Video
                                                          I think I got everyone,
                                                          The video I'm sending the link to this time was done by the guys at the Denver Society of Model Railroaders, anyone who is familiar with this group is also familiar with their O scale Colorado Midland, I had visited this layout in the basement of Denver Union Station back in 1983, this is one of the oldest continuous clubs in the US, I never belonged to this club, as I didn't have funds available that would have made it possible, but I did have some friends who were at one time or another members of this club.
                                                           
                                                           
                                                          Gary W
                                                           
                                                           

                                                           
                                                          Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8506 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/3/2009
                                                          Subject: American Flyer HO diecast freight cars
                                                          Hi Guys,
                                                          I made a wonderful small purchase this past week which revealed an
                                                          interesting set of all diecast gilbert cars. All HO and NOT S scale. I
                                                          imagine the lot to be quite vintage sinc with it came a first issue Lil
                                                          Joe with the power pick-up located behind the left rear driver,
                                                          brushing that driver only. The lot also had several early lehigh
                                                          freight cars and other misc equipment including an early pre-war Varney
                                                          Pacific with all diecast drivers and brass tires only on one side. All
                                                          my others have brass tires on both sides (I think).

                                                          I was wondering if anyone had any thought as to the vintage of the
                                                          Gilbet cars. Al diecast and no plastic, but on the wheels of the
                                                          trucks. I know Gilbert & Lionel started HO here in the US back in 1936
                                                          and I think these may be from around that time or shortly after.

                                                          Sean
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8507 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/3/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: American Flyer HO diecast freight cars
                                                          They are pre WW2 manufacture, but possibly sold after the war.  Post war production for cars was plastic and Varney furnished some of it.
                                                          Don in VA
                                                          ==============================================

                                                          Sean Naylor wrote:

                                                          Hi Guys,
                                                          I made a wonderful small purchase this past week which revealed an
                                                          interesting set of all diecast gilbert cars. All HO and NOT S scale. I
                                                          imagine the lot to be quite vintage sinc with it came a first issue Lil
                                                          Joe with the power pick-up located behind the left rear driver,
                                                          brushing that driver only. The lot also had several early lehigh
                                                          freight cars and other misc equipment including an early pre-war Varney
                                                          Pacific with all diecast drivers and brass tires only on one side. All
                                                          my others have brass tires on both sides (I think).

                                                          I was wondering if anyone had any thought as to the vintage of the
                                                          Gilbet cars. Al diecast and no plastic, but on the wheels of the
                                                          trucks. I know Gilbert & Lionel started HO here in the US back in 1936
                                                          and I think these may be from around that time or shortly after.

                                                          Sean
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8508 From: Chris B Date: 2/3/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: American Flyer HO diecast freight cars
                                                          Thanks, Don & Sean, that answers some curiousity I had about several diecast HO AF gondolas bought on ebay.  Would either of you know anything about AF HO diecast passenger cars?
                                                           
                                                          I have a diecast HO AF RPO shell, no frame or trucks to help in identification of era.  I'd very much like to know more about it, and if similar cars include coaches etc.?
                                                           
                                                          Chris B

                                                          From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 12:31:03 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] American Flyer HO diecast freight cars

                                                          They are pre WW2 manufacture, but possibly sold after the war.  Post war production for cars was plastic and Varney furnished some of it.
                                                          Don in VA
                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= =======

                                                          Sean Naylor wrote:

                                                          Hi Guys,
                                                          I made a wonderful small purchase this past week which revealed an
                                                          interesting set of all diecast gilbert cars. All HO and NOT S scale. I
                                                          imagine the lot to be quite vintage sinc with it came a first issue Lil
                                                          Joe with the power pick-up located behind the left rear driver,
                                                          brushing that driver only. The lot also had several early lehigh
                                                          freight cars and other misc equipment including an early pre-war Varney
                                                          Pacific with all diecast drivers and brass tires only on one side. All
                                                          my others have brass tires on both sides (I think).

                                                          I was wondering if anyone had any thought as to the vintage of the
                                                          Gilbet cars. Al diecast and no plastic, but on the wheels of the
                                                          trucks. I know Gilbert & Lionel started HO here in the US back in 1936
                                                          and I think these may be from around that time or shortly after.

                                                          Sean
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8509 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/3/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: American Flyer HO diecast freight cars
                                                          Yes they also made coaches.  The whole unit was diecast as body, frame and trucks.  The only info I have is buried.  I will try and dig it out and give more info if available.

                                                          I sold all of my AF HO except for certain C&O pieces, one of which is a black hopper with dump doors activated by a special track section.  I am very fond of the 12 wheel Alcos with the ringing bell.
                                                          Don in VA
                                                          ================================================

                                                          Chris B wrote:
                                                          Thanks, Don & Sean, that answers some curiousity I had about several diecast HO AF gondolas bought on ebay.  Would either of you know anything about AF HO diecast passenger cars?
                                                           
                                                          I have a diecast HO AF RPO shell, no frame or trucks to help in identification of era.  I'd very much like to know more about it, and if similar cars include coaches etc.?
                                                           
                                                          Chris B

                                                          From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@verizon. net>
                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 12:31:03 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] American Flyer HO diecast freight cars

                                                          They are pre WW2 manufacture, but possibly sold after the war.  Post war production for cars was plastic and Varney furnished some of it.
                                                          Don in VA
                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= =======

                                                          Sean Naylor wrote:

                                                          Hi Guys,
                                                          I made a wonderful small purchase this past week which revealed an
                                                          interesting set of all diecast gilbert cars. All HO and NOT S scale. I
                                                          imagine the lot to be quite vintage sinc with it came a first issue Lil
                                                          Joe with the power pick-up located behind the left rear driver,
                                                          brushing that driver only. The lot also had several early lehigh
                                                          freight cars and other misc equipment including an early pre-war Varney
                                                          Pacific with all diecast drivers and brass tires only on one side. All
                                                          my others have brass tires on both sides (I think).

                                                          I was wondering if anyone had any thought as to the vintage of the
                                                          Gilbet cars. Al diecast and no plastic, but on the wheels of the
                                                          trucks. I know Gilbert & Lionel started HO here in the US back in 1936
                                                          and I think these may be from around that time or shortly after.

                                                          Sean
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8510 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/3/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: American Flyer HO diecast freight cars
                                                          The cars made pre war beginning in 1938 were all cast metal including refer, tank, gon, caboose, Hudson loco, a combine car that was 1/3 mail-1/3 baggage-1/3 coach and a coach.  The coaches were green.  The first passenger cars were lettered New Haven.  Later pre-war pass. cars were not lettered. 
                                                          Post war pass. cars were made with plastic bodies. 
                                                          The 0-6-0 came into the line in 1949.  The industrial diesel came in 1958, an F3 by Varney came in 1955, the Alco 12 wheel diesel came in 1956.

                                                          New items after that were produced by Varney and then overseas.
                                                          Don in VA
                                                          ===================================================

                                                          Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                          Yes they also made coaches.  The whole unit was diecast as body, frame and trucks.  The only info I have is buried.  I will try and dig it out and give more info if available.

                                                          I sold all of my AF HO except for certain C&O pieces, one of which is a black hopper with dump doors activated by a special track section.  I am very fond of the 12 wheel Alcos with the ringing bell.
                                                          Don in VA
                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= =========

                                                          Chris B wrote:

                                                          Thanks, Don & Sean, that answers some curiousity I had about several diecast HO AF gondolas bought on ebay.  Would either of you know anything about AF HO diecast passenger cars?
                                                           
                                                          I have a diecast HO AF RPO shell, no frame or trucks to help in identification of era.  I'd very much like to know more about it, and if similar cars include coaches etc.?
                                                           
                                                          Chris B

                                                          From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@verizon. net>
                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 12:31:03 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] American Flyer HO diecast freight cars

                                                          They are pre WW2 manufacture, but possibly sold after the war.  Post war production for cars was plastic and Varney furnished some of it.
                                                          Don in VA
                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= =======

                                                          Sean Naylor wrote:

                                                          Hi Guys,
                                                          I made a wonderful small purchase this past week which revealed an
                                                          interesting set of all diecast gilbert cars. All HO and NOT S scale. I
                                                          imagine the lot to be quite vintage sinc with it came a first issue Lil
                                                          Joe with the power pick-up located behind the left rear driver,
                                                          brushing that driver only. The lot also had several early lehigh
                                                          freight cars and other misc equipment including an early pre-war Varney
                                                          Pacific with all diecast drivers and brass tires only on one side. All
                                                          my others have brass tires on both sides (I think).

                                                          I was wondering if anyone had any thought as to the vintage of the
                                                          Gilbet cars. Al diecast and no plastic, but on the wheels of the
                                                          trucks. I know Gilbert & Lionel started HO here in the US back in 1936
                                                          and I think these may be from around that time or shortly after.

                                                          Sean
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8511 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/3/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: American Flyer HO diecast freight cars
                                                          Hi Don,
                                                           
                                                          Thanks, What I ahve are two cabeese, one gondola, two tank cars and two reefers.
                                                           
                                                          Quite interesting, Thanks, Sean

                                                          From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 3:23:56 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] American Flyer HO diecast freight cars

                                                          The cars made pre war beginning in 1938 were all cast metal including refer, tank, gon, caboose, Hudson loco, a combine car that was 1/3 mail-1/3 baggage-1/3 coach and a coach.  The coaches were green.  The first passenger cars were lettered New Haven.  Later pre-war pass. cars were not lettered. 
                                                          Post war pass. cars were made with plastic bodies. 
                                                          The 0-6-0 came into the line in 1949.  The industrial diesel came in 1958, an F3 by Varney came in 1955, the Alco 12 wheel diesel came in 1956.

                                                          New items after that were produced by Varney and then overseas.
                                                          Don in VA
                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ===

                                                          Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                          Yes they also made coaches.  The whole unit was diecast as body, frame and trucks.  The only info I have is buried.  I will try and dig it out and give more info if available.

                                                          I sold all of my AF HO except for certain C&O pieces, one of which is a black hopper with dump doors activated by a special track section.  I am very fond of the 12 wheel Alcos with the ringing bell.
                                                          Don in VA
                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= =========

                                                          Chris B wrote:

                                                          Thanks, Don & Sean, that answers some curiousity I had about several diecast HO AF gondolas bought on ebay.  Would either of you know anything about AF HO diecast passenger cars?
                                                           
                                                          I have a diecast HO AF RPO shell, no frame or trucks to help in identification of era.  I'd very much like to know more about it, and if similar cars include coaches etc.?
                                                           
                                                          Chris B

                                                          From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@verizon. net>
                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 12:31:03 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] American Flyer HO diecast freight cars

                                                          They are pre WW2 manufacture, but possibly sold after the war.  Post war production for cars was plastic and Varney furnished some of it.
                                                          Don in VA
                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= =======

                                                          Sean Naylor wrote:

                                                          Hi Guys,
                                                          I made a wonderful small purchase this past week which revealed an
                                                          interesting set of all diecast gilbert cars. All HO and NOT S scale. I
                                                          imagine the lot to be quite vintage sinc with it came a first issue Lil
                                                          Joe with the power pick-up located behind the left rear driver,
                                                          brushing that driver only. The lot also had several early lehigh
                                                          freight cars and other misc equipment including an early pre-war Varney
                                                          Pacific with all diecast drivers and brass tires only on one side. All
                                                          my others have brass tires on both sides (I think).

                                                          I was wondering if anyone had any thought as to the vintage of the
                                                          Gilbet cars. Al diecast and no plastic, but on the wheels of the
                                                          trucks. I know Gilbert & Lionel started HO here in the US back in 1936
                                                          and I think these may be from around that time or shortly after.

                                                          Sean
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8512 From: Chris B Date: 2/3/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: American Flyer HO diecast freight cars
                                                          Don, thanks.  I've got an all cast metal car of coach or combine length, that has no passenger windows, and two equally spaced doors on each side.  The doors are not at the ends, but divide the car into thirds.  If they made a coach, and a combine, would a baggage / RPO be possible? It has American Flyer cast into the inside roof. 
                                                          Chris B.

                                                          From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 3:23:56 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] American Flyer HO diecast freight cars

                                                          The cars made pre war beginning in 1938 were all cast metal including refer, tank, gon, caboose, Hudson loco, a combine car that was 1/3 mail-1/3 baggage-1/3 coach and a coach.  The coaches were green.  The first passenger cars were lettered New Haven.  Later pre-war pass. cars were not lettered. 
                                                          Post war pass. cars were made with plastic bodies. 
                                                          The 0-6-0 came into the line in 1949.  The industrial diesel came in 1958, an F3 by Varney came in 1955, the Alco 12 wheel diesel came in 1956.

                                                          New items after that were produced by Varney and then overseas.
                                                          Don in VA
                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ===

                                                          Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                          Yes they also made coaches.  The whole unit was diecast as body, frame and trucks.  The only info I have is buried.  I will try and dig it out and give more info if available.

                                                          I sold all of my AF HO except for certain C&O pieces, one of which is a black hopper with dump doors activated by a special track section.  I am very fond of the 12 wheel Alcos with the ringing bell.
                                                          Don in VA
                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= =========

                                                          Chris B wrote:

                                                          Thanks, Don & Sean, that answers some curiousity I had about several diecast HO AF gondolas bought on ebay.  Would either of you know anything about AF HO diecast passenger cars?
                                                           
                                                          I have a diecast HO AF RPO shell, no frame or trucks to help in identification of era.  I'd very much like to know more about it, and if similar cars include coaches etc.?
                                                           
                                                          Chris B

                                                          From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@verizon. net>
                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 12:31:03 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] American Flyer HO diecast freight cars

                                                          They are pre WW2 manufacture, but possibly sold after the war.  Post war production for cars was plastic and Varney furnished some of it.
                                                          Don in VA
                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= =======

                                                          Sean Naylor wrote:

                                                          Hi Guys,
                                                          I made a wonderful small purchase this past week which revealed an
                                                          interesting set of all diecast gilbert cars. All HO and NOT S scale. I
                                                          imagine the lot to be quite vintage sinc with it came a first issue Lil
                                                          Joe with the power pick-up located behind the left rear driver,
                                                          brushing that driver only. The lot also had several early lehigh
                                                          freight cars and other misc equipment including an early pre-war Varney
                                                          Pacific with all diecast drivers and brass tires only on one side. All
                                                          my others have brass tires on both sides (I think).

                                                          I was wondering if anyone had any thought as to the vintage of the
                                                          Gilbet cars. Al diecast and no plastic, but on the wheels of the
                                                          trucks. I know Gilbert & Lionel started HO here in the US back in 1936
                                                          and I think these may be from around that time or shortly after.

                                                          Sean
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8513 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/3/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: American Flyer HO diecast freight cars
                                                          Very possible because you have it but not noted in my reference book.  I once had a Flyer catalog from the '40's that illustrated the cars but I do not remember the shapes and the catalog is long gone.
                                                          Don in VA.

                                                          Chris B wrote:
                                                          Don, thanks.  I've got an all cast metal car of coach or combine length, that has no passenger windows, and two equally spaced doors on each side.  The doors are not at the ends, but divide the car into thirds.  If they made a coach, and a combine, would a baggage / RPO be possible? It has American Flyer cast into the inside roof. 
                                                          Chris B.

                                                          From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@verizon. net>
                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 3:23:56 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] American Flyer HO diecast freight cars

                                                          The cars made pre war beginning in 1938 were all cast metal including refer, tank, gon, caboose, Hudson loco, a combine car that was 1/3 mail-1/3 baggage-1/3 coach and a coach.  The coaches were green.  The first passenger cars were lettered New Haven.  Later pre-war pass. cars were not lettered. 
                                                          Post war pass. cars were made with plastic bodies. 
                                                          The 0-6-0 came into the line in 1949.  The industrial diesel came in 1958, an F3 by Varney came in 1955, the Alco 12 wheel diesel came in 1956.

                                                          New items after that were produced by Varney and then overseas.
                                                          Don in VA
                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ===

                                                          Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                          Yes they also made coaches.  The whole unit was diecast as body, frame and trucks.  The only info I have is buried.  I will try and dig it out and give more info if available.

                                                          I sold all of my AF HO except for certain C&O pieces, one of which is a black hopper with dump doors activated by a special track section.  I am very fond of the 12 wheel Alcos with the ringing bell.
                                                          Don in VA
                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= =========

                                                          Chris B wrote:

                                                          Thanks, Don & Sean, that answers some curiousity I had about several diecast HO AF gondolas bought on ebay.  Would either of you know anything about AF HO diecast passenger cars?
                                                           
                                                          I have a diecast HO AF RPO shell, no frame or trucks to help in identification of era.  I'd very much like to know more about it, and if similar cars include coaches etc.?
                                                           
                                                          Chris B

                                                          From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@verizon. net>
                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 12:31:03 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] American Flyer HO diecast freight cars

                                                          They are pre WW2 manufacture, but possibly sold after the war.  Post war production for cars was plastic and Varney furnished some of it.
                                                          Don in VA
                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= =======

                                                          Sean Naylor wrote:

                                                          Hi Guys,
                                                          I made a wonderful small purchase this past week which revealed an
                                                          interesting set of all diecast gilbert cars. All HO and NOT S scale. I
                                                          imagine the lot to be quite vintage sinc with it came a first issue Lil
                                                          Joe with the power pick-up located behind the left rear driver,
                                                          brushing that driver only. The lot also had several early lehigh
                                                          freight cars and other misc equipment including an early pre-war Varney
                                                          Pacific with all diecast drivers and brass tires only on one side. All
                                                          my others have brass tires on both sides (I think).

                                                          I was wondering if anyone had any thought as to the vintage of the
                                                          Gilbet cars. Al diecast and no plastic, but on the wheels of the
                                                          trucks. I know Gilbert & Lionel started HO here in the US back in 1936
                                                          and I think these may be from around that time or shortly after.

                                                          Sean
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8514 From: man.ukin Date: 2/4/2009
                                                          Subject: Marklin/LGB files today insolvency/bankruptcy
                                                          hi there,
                                                          today Marklin/LGB files insolvency/bankruptcy in Germany.
                                                          I as a german are very unhappy about that.
                                                          Regards
                                                          Jens
                                                          www.modelleisenbahn-figuren.com
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8515 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 2/6/2009
                                                          Subject: What is this? (ebay auction of brass HH1000)
                                                          220356938346

                                                          Is this a home-made'r or a kit from the 'bronze age'?

                                                          Looks interesting at any rate.

                                                          Jim Waterman
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8516 From: Glen Thomas Date: 2/6/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: What is this? (ebay auction of brass HH1000)
                                                          Jim,
                                                          It's home-made... 3rd picture shows how thick the casting is. If this
                                                          were done professionally, as in factory made, the walls would have only
                                                          been 3/32 at the max. It's at least 1/8-3/16 thick. Looks like there
                                                          were 5 casting involved in making this sweet heart. Roof section, 2
                                                          sides, and 2 ends with three cross sections.
                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8517 From: Chris B Date: 2/6/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: What is this? (ebay auction of brass HH1000)
                                                          http://www.hoseeker.net/walthers/walthers6410alcodiesel1946.jpg

                                                          From: Glen Thomas <gthomas2@...>
                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Sent: Friday, February 6, 2009 2:33:21 PM
                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What is this? (ebay auction of brass HH1000)

                                                          Jim,
                                                          It's home-made... 3rd picture shows how thick the casting is. If this
                                                          were done professionally, as in factory made, the walls would have only
                                                          been 3/32 at the max. It's at least 1/8-3/16 thick. Looks like there
                                                          were 5 casting involved in making this sweet heart. Roof section, 2
                                                          sides, and 2 ends with three cross sections.


                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8518 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/6/2009
                                                          Subject: Re: What is this? (ebay auction of brass HH1000)
                                                                     Jim, Glen,
                                                                                 Sorry but this is not home made. It was made pre war by Walthers. The first bodies were brass/bronze and later they used lead. Very thick walled and heavy in both cases. Mine is lead. It was a kit that came in pieces. Mine has plans from 1938. The kit came unpowered and usually was powered by a Walthers drive but many different drives used especially Varney. I have to check if it came with sideframes. The ones in the pictures don't look right. Again I have to go into the basement to check mine and the plans. If you want pictures I will send.
                                                          Jim H
                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:33 PM
                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What is this? (ebay auction of brass HH1000)

                                                          Jim,
                                                          It's home-made... 3rd picture shows how thick the casting is. If this
                                                          were done professionally, as in factory made, the walls would have only
                                                          been 3/32 at the max. It's at least 1/8-3/16 thick. Looks like there
                                                          were 5 casting involved in making this sweet heart. Roof section, 2
                                                          sides, and 2 ends with three cross sections.

                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8519 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/6/2009
                                                          Subject: HH 600
                                                          Attachments :
                                                                   These are pictures of the post war HH-600 made by Walthers. As I stated already I think the item on Ebay that is brass/bronze was made before the war. I have plans from 1938 for it. The plans with this mint boxed kit, that has been assembled, has plans dated 1946. They are a very light green and doesn't show up well. This is made from lead and extremely heavy same as the brass/bronze.  There is a set of sideframes with it. In the box are detail parts like ladder material and railing.
                                                                                                                          Jim H
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8520 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/6/2009
                                                            Subject: Latest Acquisitions
                                                            These two items may not be considered purely "vintage" since both
                                                            companies are still in business. But since these are both out of
                                                            production and they use "vintage" construction techniques (non-laser
                                                            wood construction) I consider them to be in the same class of kits as
                                                            anything available 50 years ago.
                                                            The first item is a Sassen Vinegar Works kit, #8, from Builders In
                                                            Scale. This is complete with the tank car sub-kit still included. I got
                                                            it for the princely sum of $30. Compare that with one at auction on eBay
                                                            right now with a current bid of $89 and 3 days to go.
                                                            The second item is a Dyna-Model Products Freight Station, #100, for
                                                            which I paid $8. Mine is in a blue and white box. There's one on eBay in
                                                            a solid red box with a $10 price tag, and another in a box similar to
                                                            mine except red and white and starting at $10.50, but the seller says
                                                            it's kit #101. Mine also has an additional detail set in it for a
                                                            horizontal engine from Williams.
                                                            Not actually acquired at the same time as these two, but a while
                                                            back from the same seller, was a Sheepscot 100 Ton Crane. The list on
                                                            the kit was $85, but it was sold to me for $35. Once I got it home and
                                                            inspected it more closely I found that there was also an additional
                                                            Sheepscot crane boom kit in the box. This is apparently for upgrading
                                                            the booms on some other crane kits like Walthers and Woodland Scenics.
                                                            It doesn't appear to be any sort of modification for the Sheepscot kit.

                                                            --

                                                            Rick Jones

                                                            "Listen! Do you smell something?"
                                                            -Dr. Raymond Stantz, "Ghostbusters"
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8521 From: Larry Date: 2/6/2009
                                                            Subject: New Memeber Larry
                                                            Hi group,

                                                            Thought I would jump on here and say Hello, give a litle bit of info
                                                            so you know I'm a modeler.

                                                            I'm Larry, Hale from Iowa, I'm 44, I model the BN, CB&Q and
                                                            Burlington, collect alot of the Merger roads like NP, GN, and related
                                                            roads up to the BN,
                                                            "Grandfather worked on the CB&Q his whole life" why I model all this.
                                                            I've been modeling for a good time now,
                                                            since the early 90s, but alot of that time to stuff was in storage,
                                                            My collection was around 100 locos, 400+ cars, and lord knows what
                                                            else in buildings, parts ext,
                                                            I came across a guy selling his dads 30+ year collection, and I
                                                            must say, WOW.... yup, just WOW,
                                                            I have bought alot of old old stuff in the last couple months,
                                                            Brass, wood, wood and metal, metal car kits and old steam from MDC
                                                            and Mantua... Alot of really cool stuff that I am having fun working
                                                            on getting back up to be able to rail run...

                                                            Just wanted to jump in while I was here for a minute and give my
                                                            little Hello..

                                                            I am looking for a set of brushes for an old MDC 2-6-2 steam engine,
                                                            I was directed here from another group when I posted for the parts.
                                                            Looks like a cool group you have here,
                                                            Thanks for lending me your ears Guys n Gals,

                                                            Larry
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8522 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/6/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: New Memeber Larry
                                                            Glad to have you aboard, I hope you enjoy the ride.

                                                            Don

                                                            Don Dellmann
                                                            don.dellmann@...
                                                            http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                            http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                            Owner
                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: "Larry" <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                            To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                            Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 4:46 PM
                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] New Memeber Larry


                                                            > Hi group,
                                                            >
                                                            > Thought I would jump on here and say Hello, give a litle bit of info
                                                            > so you know I'm a modeler.
                                                            >
                                                            > I'm Larry, Hale from Iowa, I'm 44, I model the BN, CB&Q and
                                                            > Burlington, collect alot of the Merger roads like NP, GN, and related
                                                            > roads up to the BN,
                                                            > "Grandfather worked on the CB&Q his whole life" why I model all this.
                                                            > I've been modeling for a good time now,
                                                            > since the early 90s, but alot of that time to stuff was in storage,
                                                            > My collection was around 100 locos, 400+ cars, and lord knows what
                                                            > else in buildings, parts ext,
                                                            > I came across a guy selling his dads 30+ year collection, and I
                                                            > must say, WOW.... yup, just WOW,
                                                            > I have bought alot of old old stuff in the last couple months,
                                                            > Brass, wood, wood and metal, metal car kits and old steam from MDC
                                                            > and Mantua... Alot of really cool stuff that I am having fun working
                                                            > on getting back up to be able to rail run...
                                                            >
                                                            > Just wanted to jump in while I was here for a minute and give my
                                                            > little Hello..
                                                            >
                                                            > I am looking for a set of brushes for an old MDC 2-6-2 steam engine,
                                                            > I was directed here from another group when I posted for the parts.
                                                            > Looks like a cool group you have here,
                                                            > Thanks for lending me your ears Guys n Gals,
                                                            >
                                                            > Larry
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > ------------------------------------
                                                            >
                                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8523 From: Larry L. Doub Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Latest Acquisitions
                                                            I've noticed here lately a ton of the old stuff
                                                            showing up in Ebay, and alot of these old wood/metal kits
                                                            can be had for 5 bucks,
                                                            several never built "new kits" listed right now.
                                                             
                                                            Larry 



                                                             
                                                             
                                                             
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8524 From: Jim Waterman Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: What is this? (ebay auction of brass HH1000)
                                                            Jim
                                                             
                                                            You're the man. Thanks for the info.
                                                            I can remember reading about these, but have never seen one.
                                                             
                                                            Looks like this guy needed a little help with the handrails.
                                                             
                                                            Jim
                                                             
                                                             
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8525 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: What is this? (ebay auction of brass HH1000)
                                                            Jim,
                                                                     Do I assume you are getting the pictures  sent.
                                                                                                                    Jim
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:15 AM
                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What is this? (ebay auction of brass HH1000)

                                                            Jim
                                                             
                                                            You're the man. Thanks for the info.
                                                            I can remember reading about these, but have never seen one.
                                                             
                                                            Looks like this guy needed a little help with the handrails.
                                                             
                                                            Jim
                                                             
                                                             
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8526 From: Larry Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                            Morning ya'll,

                                                            I figured since ID help was sort of the topic atm,
                                                            I would add a few pics of a what seems to be a Brass
                                                            Steam eninge I picked up, But I have no clue what so ever who or when
                                                            this was made.
                                                            it does run, but not real great,
                                                            thinking aboutsending to a fellow and having it backshopped, Probabaly
                                                            nothing more then a good tune up, motor and ajustment, But anyways,
                                                            if more pictures are needed, let me know and I'll get them posted
                                                            sometime,

                                                            Thanks,
                                                            Larry

                                                            the pic of the shelf if a string of mostly old brass/wood or metal cars
                                                            i picked up as well.
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8527 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                                  Larry,
                                                                 The ID you are looking for is a 4-8-2 Cast Brass Mountain that was made by Bill Bowser / Redlands Calif. The original engine and tender came from a company called Knapp. They had a shorting problem and when Bill Bowser got the design he changed the brass drivers, that had an insulation problem, to the type you see in your pictures. I can supply some more facts and dates if interested but this is a Bill Bowser item from Redlands Calif.
                                                                             Hope that helps.
                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: Larry
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:57 AM
                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                            Morning ya'll,

                                                            I figured since ID help was sort of the topic atm,
                                                            I would add a few pics of a what seems to be a Brass
                                                            Steam eninge I picked up, But I have no clue what so ever who or when
                                                            this was made.
                                                            it does run, but not real great,
                                                            thinking aboutsending to a fellow and having it backshopped, Probabaly
                                                            nothing more then a good tune up, motor and ajustment, But anyways,
                                                            if more pictures are needed, let me know and I'll get them posted
                                                            sometime,

                                                            Thanks,
                                                            Larry

                                                            the pic of the shelf if a string of mostly old brass/wood or metal cars
                                                            i picked up as well.
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8528 From: Charles Windes Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: New Memeber Larry
                                                            Welcome Larry
                                                            Enjoy the info which runs rampant here it is truely an intresting site.
                                                            Charlie W.
                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                            > From: Larry <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                            > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                            > Subject: [vintageHO] New Memeber Larry
                                                            > Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 22:46:20 -0000
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Hi group,
                                                            >
                                                            > Thought I would jump on here and say Hello, give a litle bit of info
                                                            > so you know I'm a modeler.
                                                            >
                                                            > I'm Larry, Hale from Iowa, I'm 44, I model the BN, CB&Q and
                                                            > Burlington, collect alot of the Merger roads like NP, GN, and related
                                                            > roads up to the BN,
                                                            > "Grandfather worked on the CB&Q his whole life" why I model all this.
                                                            > I've been modeling for a good time now,
                                                            > since the early 90s, but alot of that time to stuff was in storage,
                                                            > My collection was around 100 locos, 400+ cars, and lord knows what
                                                            > else in buildings, parts ext,
                                                            > I came across a guy selling his dads 30+ year collection, and I
                                                            > must say, WOW.... yup, just WOW,
                                                            > I have bought alot of old old stuff in the last couple months,
                                                            > Brass, wood, wood and metal, metal car kits and old steam from MDC
                                                            > and Mantua... Alot of really cool stuff that I am having fun working
                                                            > on getting back up to be able to rail run...
                                                            >
                                                            > Just wanted to jump in while I was here for a minute and give my
                                                            > little Hello..
                                                            >
                                                            > I am looking for a set of brushes for an old MDC 2-6-2 steam engine,
                                                            > I was directed here from another group when I posted for the parts.
                                                            > Looks like a cool group you have here,
                                                            > Thanks for lending me your ears Guys n Gals,
                                                            >
                                                            > Larry
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > ------------------------------------
                                                            >
                                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >


                                                            --
                                                            Be Yourself @ mail.com!
                                                            Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
                                                            Get a Free Account at www.mail.com
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8529 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                            The 4-8-2 is a Bowser/Knapp mountain with a cast brass or bronze boiler.  It can be tuned up but the rods are cast and they usually get sloppy at the knuckle joints and cause problems.  I have one of these and I will eventually replace the rods with either solid rods or rods jointed at the crank pins. The tender is cast also but I am not familiar with it.  The aluminum C&O box car is Athearn if it is sheet metal.

                                                            Don in VA.
                                                            ==============================================

                                                            Larry wrote:

                                                            Morning ya'll,

                                                            I figured since ID help was sort of the topic atm,
                                                            I would add a few pics of a what seems to be a Brass
                                                            Steam eninge I picked up, But I have no clue what so ever who or when
                                                            this was made.
                                                            it does run, but not real great,
                                                            thinking aboutsending to a fellow and having it backshopped, Probabaly
                                                            nothing more then a good tune up, motor and ajustment, But anyways,
                                                            if more pictures are needed, let me know and I'll get them posted
                                                            sometime,

                                                            Thanks,
                                                            Larry

                                                            the pic of the shelf if a string of mostly old brass/wood or metal cars
                                                            i picked up as well.
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8530 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                            I believe the old Bowser/Knapp Mountain was 1/8" scale.  gj
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 9:26 AM
                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                                  Larry,
                                                                 The ID you are looking for is a 4-8-2 Cast Brass Mountain that was made by Bill Bowser / Redlands Calif. The original engine and tender came from a company called Knapp. They had a shorting problem and when Bill Bowser got the design he changed the brass drivers, that had an insulation problem, to the type you see in your pictures. I can supply some more facts and dates if interested but this is a Bill Bowser item from Redlands Calif.
                                                                             Hope that helps.
                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: Larry
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:57 AM
                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                            Morning ya'll,

                                                            I figured since ID help was sort of the topic atm,
                                                            I would add a few pics of a what seems to be a Brass
                                                            Steam eninge I picked up, But I have no clue what so ever who or when
                                                            this was made.
                                                            it does run, but not real great,
                                                            thinking aboutsending to a fellow and having it backshopped, Probabaly
                                                            nothing more then a good tune up, motor and ajustment, But anyways,
                                                            if more pictures are needed, let me know and I'll get them posted
                                                            sometime,

                                                            Thanks,
                                                            Larry

                                                            the pic of the shelf if a string of mostly old brass/wood or metal cars
                                                            i picked up as well.


                                                            No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                            Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1939 - Release Date: 02/06/09 17:28:00
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8531 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                             I'm not quit sure what you mean by !/8". Is that OO?  The Knapp/Bowser from Redlands Ca engines in everything I ever read about them was HO scale and ran on HO track. The original Knapp promotion paperwork says HO and that was 1938. By the way the Knapp motor was 6 volt and Bill Bowser changed his to 12 volt.
                                                                      How much difference would there be between HO scale and 1/8th.
                                                                                                                                                Jim H
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: Glenn476
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 1:30 PM
                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                            I believe the old Bowser/Knapp Mountain was 1/8" scale.  gj
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 9:26 AM
                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                                  Larry,
                                                                 The ID you are looking for is a 4-8-2 Cast Brass Mountain that was made by Bill Bowser / Redlands Calif. The original engine and tender came from a company called Knapp. They had a shorting problem and when Bill Bowser got the design he changed the brass drivers, that had an insulation problem, to the type you see in your pictures. I can supply some more facts and dates if interested but this is a Bill Bowser item from Redlands Calif.
                                                                             Hope that helps.
                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: Larry
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:57 AM
                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                            Morning ya'll,

                                                            I figured since ID help was sort of the topic atm,
                                                            I would add a few pics of a what seems to be a Brass
                                                            Steam eninge I picked up, But I have no clue what so ever who or when
                                                            this was made.
                                                            it does run, but not real great,
                                                            thinking aboutsending to a fellow and having it backshopped, Probabaly
                                                            nothing more then a good tune up, motor and ajustment, But anyways,
                                                            if more pictures are needed, let me know and I'll get them posted
                                                            sometime,

                                                            Thanks,
                                                            Larry

                                                            the pic of the shelf if a string of mostly old brass/wood or metal cars
                                                            i picked up as well.


                                                            No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                            Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1939 - Release Date: 02/06/09 17:28:00
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8532 From: Roger Aultman Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                             
                                                            I have seen 1/8" per foot reffered to as E scale, nevere commercially available to my knowledge.  The story was that some early H-0 makers found it more convenient to use that rather than 3.5 mm.   Roger Aultman
                                                             
                                                             
                                                             
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 12:45 PM
                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                             I'm not quit sure what you mean by !/8". Is that OO?  The Knapp/Bowser from Redlands Ca engines in everything I ever read about them was HO scale and ran on HO track. The original Knapp promotion paperwork says HO and that was 1938. By the way the Knapp motor was 6 volt and Bill Bowser changed his to 12 volt.
                                                                      How much difference would there be between HO scale and 1/8th.
                                                                                                                                                Jim H
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: Glenn476
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 1:30 PM
                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                            I believe the old Bowser/Knapp Mountain was 1/8" scale.  gj
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 9:26 AM
                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                                  Larry,
                                                                 The ID you are looking for is a 4-8-2 Cast Brass Mountain that was made by Bill Bowser / Redlands Calif. The original engine and tender came from a company called Knapp. They had a shorting problem and when Bill Bowser got the design he changed the brass drivers, that had an insulation problem, to the type you see in your pictures. I can supply some more facts and dates if interested but this is a Bill Bowser item from Redlands Calif.
                                                                             Hope that helps.
                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: Larry
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:57 AM
                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                            Morning ya'll,

                                                            I figured since ID help was sort of the topic atm,
                                                            I would add a few pics of a what seems to be a Brass
                                                            Steam eninge I picked up, But I have no clue what so ever who or when
                                                            this was made.
                                                            it does run, but not real great,
                                                            thinking aboutsending to a fellow and having it backshopped, Probabaly
                                                            nothing more then a good tune up, motor and ajustment, But anyways,
                                                            if more pictures are needed, let me know and I'll get them posted
                                                            sometime,

                                                            Thanks,
                                                            Larry

                                                            the pic of the shelf if a string of mostly old brass/wood or metal cars
                                                            i picked up as well.


                                                            No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                            Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1939 - Release Date: 02/06/09 17:28:00
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8533 From: John Hagen Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                            Jim,

                                                            1/8 (0.125) is 90.7% HO scale (0.1378).

                                                            Back in early days of HO metric measurements were not readily available
                                                            here, nor were they wanted for that matter. Much the same reason I feel
                                                            that O scale is 1/4 instead of the proper 7 mm. Fortunately for us
                                                            HOer's by the time that HO began to gain momentum most modelers and
                                                            eventual manufacturers did not desire for HO to have the same
                                                            incongruity between scale and track gauge that O scale had, and, due to
                                                            the relatively advanced popularity of O at the time, were basically
                                                            stuck with.

                                                            BTW, 1/8 is 3.175 mm while OO is 4 mm.

                                                            John Hagen

                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > I'm not quit sure what you mean by !/8". Is that OO? The
                                                            Knapp/Bowser from Redlands Ca engines in everything I ever read about
                                                            them was HO scale and ran on HO track. The original Knapp promotion
                                                            paperwork says HO and that was 1938. By the way the Knapp motor was 6
                                                            volt and Bill Bowser changed his to 12 volt.
                                                            > How much difference would there be between HO scale and
                                                            1/8th.
                                                            >
                                                            Jim H
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8534 From: John Hagen Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                            Some early manufacturers used 1/8" for HO. Non of those companies that
                                                            went on to enjoy much in the way of popularity, thank goodness.

                                                            Back when I was a youngster, I thought the 1/8 was the correct scale
                                                            for HO. And this was from magazines/books I had read. Most likely from
                                                            some very old books on model trains I read from the Appleton library.
                                                            The selection of such books back in the mid-50's were pretty slim and
                                                            most went back to the 30's or even earlier. I was always disappointed
                                                            that they had little in the way of up-to-date books. But then there
                                                            weren't many current books period.

                                                            I also remember reading a review of a HO model in MR as recent as the
                                                            late 50's, maybe even real early 60's that was built to 1/8" scale. The
                                                            line in the review was "Unfortunately, it (the model in question) is
                                                            constructed to 1/8" scale instead of the correct 3.5 mm". The article
                                                            went on to state that it was a throw to the early HO days.

                                                            John Hagen

                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > I have seen 1/8" per foot reffered to as E scale, nevere commercially
                                                            available to my knowledge. The story was that some early H-0 makers
                                                            found it more convenient to use that rather than 3.5 mm. Roger Aultman
                                                            >
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8535 From: Web Shopper Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass? - Scale deconstruction
                                                            1/8" Scale means 1/8" linear measure of the model is the equivalent of 1' linear measure of the prototype.
                                                             
                                                            So...
                                                             
                                                            <cough, cough>
                                                             
                                                            (That was me dusting off my arithmetic skills ;-)
                                                             
                                                            If 1/8" of the model is 1 scale foot then there are 8 scale feet to the inch and with 12 inches to the foot there are 8 * 12 scale feet to the prototype foot or 96 scale feet to one prototype foot, et voila!
                                                             
                                                            1/8" Scale = 1/96
                                                             
                                                            Since HO is 1/87 then 1/8" Scale is about 10% smaller than HO.
                                                             
                                                            <cough, cough>
                                                             
                                                            (That was me recovering from the mental fatigue I just subjected myself to ;-)
                                                             
                                                            Someone please check my work for accuracy.
                                                             
                                                             
                                                            Hope this helps.
                                                             
                                                            Regards,
                                                             
                                                            Ken Berry
                                                             
                                                             
                                                             
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:45 AM
                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                             I'm not quit sure what you mean by !/8". Is that OO?  The Knapp/Bowser from Redlands Ca engines in everything I ever read about them was HO scale and ran on HO track. The original Knapp promotion paperwork says HO and that was 1938. By the way the Knapp motor was 6 volt and Bill Bowser changed his to 12 volt.
                                                                      How much difference would there be between HO scale and 1/8th.
                                                                                                                                                Jim H
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: Glenn476
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 1:30 PM
                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                            I believe the old Bowser/Knapp Mountain was 1/8" scale.  gj
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 9:26 AM
                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                                  Larry,
                                                                 The ID you are looking for is a 4-8-2 Cast Brass Mountain that was made by Bill Bowser / Redlands Calif. The original engine and tender came from a company called Knapp. They had a shorting problem and when Bill Bowser got the design he changed the brass drivers, that had an insulation problem, to the type you see in your pictures. I can supply some more facts and dates if interested but this is a Bill Bowser item from Redlands Calif.
                                                                             Hope that helps.
                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: Larry
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:57 AM
                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                            Morning ya'll,

                                                            I figured since ID help was sort of the topic atm,
                                                            I would add a few pics of a what seems to be a Brass
                                                            Steam eninge I picked up, But I have no clue what so ever who or when
                                                            this was made.
                                                            it does run, but not real great,
                                                            thinking aboutsending to a fellow and having it backshopped, Probabaly
                                                            nothing more then a good tune up, motor and ajustment, But anyways,
                                                            if more pictures are needed, let me know and I'll get them posted
                                                            sometime,

                                                            Thanks,
                                                            Larry

                                                            the pic of the shelf if a string of mostly old brass/wood or metal cars
                                                            i picked up as well.


                                                            No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                            Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1939 - Release Date: 02/06/09 17:28:00
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8536 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                            1/8" would be undersize. OO is larger at 4mm to the foot, HO is 3.5mm, 1/8" would be a bit over 3mm. 
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 10:45 AM
                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                             I'm not quit sure what you mean by !/8". Is that OO?  The Knapp/Bowser from Redlands Ca engines in everything I ever read about them was HO scale and ran on HO track. The original Knapp promotion paperwork says HO and that was 1938. By the way the Knapp motor was 6 volt and Bill Bowser changed his to 12 volt.
                                                                      How much difference would there be between HO scale and 1/8th.
                                                                                                                                                Jim H
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: Glenn476
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 1:30 PM
                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                            I believe the old Bowser/Knapp Mountain was 1/8" scale.  gj
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 9:26 AM
                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                                  Larry,
                                                                 The ID you are looking for is a 4-8-2 Cast Brass Mountain that was made by Bill Bowser / Redlands Calif. The original engine and tender came from a company called Knapp. They had a shorting problem and when Bill Bowser got the design he changed the brass drivers, that had an insulation problem, to the type you see in your pictures. I can supply some more facts and dates if interested but this is a Bill Bowser item from Redlands Calif.
                                                                             Hope that helps.
                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: Larry
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:57 AM
                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                            Morning ya'll,

                                                            I figured since ID help was sort of the topic atm,
                                                            I would add a few pics of a what seems to be a Brass
                                                            Steam eninge I picked up, But I have no clue what so ever who or when
                                                            this was made.
                                                            it does run, but not real great,
                                                            thinking aboutsending to a fellow and having it backshopped, Probabaly
                                                            nothing more then a good tune up, motor and ajustment, But anyways,
                                                            if more pictures are needed, let me know and I'll get them posted
                                                            sometime,

                                                            Thanks,
                                                            Larry

                                                            the pic of the shelf if a string of mostly old brass/wood or metal cars
                                                            i picked up as well.


                                                            No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                            Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1939 - Release Date: 02/06/09 17:28:00


                                                            No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                            Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1939 - Release Date: 02/06/09 17:28:00
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8537 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                                   
                                                                     Thanks to everyone who explained what 1/8" is / was. I'm in HO since 1958 and had never heard the first items could be 1/8 instead of 1/87 HO. I never "read" train mags,books or train related magazines only bought and collected HO. While I feel I have a lot of vintage HO knowledge I know nothing about the prototypes they were copied from and how close to scale items were made. I learned a lot today from many. So I will pose other questions. Do you feel, think. know if all of the early manufacturers of pre war items (like Varney, Mantua, George Stock, Walthers, Knapp, etc) were to 1/8th scale rather then HO scale ? What year / years do you feel that the official  1/87 HO scale was actually started. a rough idea fine. I know George Stock produced what was described as the first manufactured HO items as far back as 1936. He was called the "King of HO scale".
                                                                                                                                         Jim H
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: John Hagen
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 4:02 PM
                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Steam ID, Brass?

                                                            Some early manufacturers used 1/8" for HO. Non of those companies that
                                                            went on to enjoy much in the way of popularity, thank goodness.

                                                            Back when I was a youngster, I thought the 1/8 was the correct scale
                                                            for HO. And this was from magazines/books I had read. Most likely from
                                                            some very old books on model trains I read from the Appleton library.
                                                            The selection of such books back in the mid-50's were pretty slim and
                                                            most went back to the 30's or even earlier. I was always disappointed
                                                            that they had little in the way of up-to-date books. But then there
                                                            weren't many current books period.

                                                            I also remember reading a review of a HO model in MR as recent as the
                                                            late 50's, maybe even real early 60's that was built to 1/8" scale. The
                                                            line in the review was "Unfortunately, it (the model in question) is
                                                            constructed to 1/8" scale instead of the correct 3.5 mm". The article
                                                            went on to state that it was a throw to the early HO days.

                                                            John Hagen

                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > I have seen 1/8" per foot reffered to as E scale, nevere commercially
                                                            available to my knowledge. The story was that some early H-0 makers
                                                            found it more convenient to use that rather than 3.5 mm. Roger Aultman
                                                            >

                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8538 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                            Hi John,
                                                             
                                                            As a former O scaler, also remember that back in the day, getting a real model railroad scale rule wasn't an option, so it was much easier for American modelers to stick with something they understood, and was easy, on the other hand, there were those who did try to enlarge from 1/4 inch to the foot and make it 17/64 scale, which some called Q scale.
                                                             
                                                            In the 60's, some guys got together and created 1/4 inch AAR finescale, which today is known as Proto48, there is also a group of modelers out there doing Proto87.............:o)
                                                             
                                                            Gary W

                                                             
                                                            Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                            From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 7, 2009 3:43:56 PM
                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Steam ID, Brass?

                                                            Jim,

                                                            1/8 (0.125) is 90.7% HO scale (0.1378).

                                                            Back in early days of HO metric measurements were not readily available
                                                            here, nor were they wanted for that matter. Much the same reason I feel
                                                            that O scale is 1/4 instead of the proper 7 mm. Fortunately for us
                                                            HOer's by the time that HO began to gain momentum most modelers and
                                                            eventual manufacturers did not desire for HO to have the same
                                                            incongruity between scale and track gauge that O scale had, and, due to
                                                            the relatively advanced popularity of O at the time, were basically
                                                            stuck with.

                                                            BTW, 1/8 is 3.175 mm while OO is 4 mm.

                                                            John Hagen

                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > I'm not quit sure what you mean by !/8". Is that OO? The
                                                            Knapp/Bowser from Redlands Ca engines in everything I ever read about
                                                            them was HO scale and ran on HO track. The original Knapp promotion
                                                            paperwork says HO and that was 1938. By the way the Knapp motor was 6
                                                            volt and Bill Bowser changed his to 12 volt.
                                                            > How much difference would there be between HO scale and
                                                            1/8th.
                                                            >
                                                            Jim H
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8539 From: Web Shopper Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                            Please disregard previous message...I misunderstood the original question :-(
                                                             
                                                            But I did enjoy the mental exercise!! ;-)
                                                             
                                                            Regards,
                                                             
                                                            Ken Berry
                                                            Former Literate
                                                             
                                                             
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:45 AM
                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                             I'm not quit sure what you mean by !/8". Is that OO?  The Knapp/Bowser from Redlands Ca engines in everything I ever read about them was HO scale and ran on HO track. The original Knapp promotion paperwork says HO and that was 1938. By the way the Knapp motor was 6 volt and Bill Bowser changed his to 12 volt.
                                                                      How much difference would there be between HO scale and 1/8th.
                                                                                                                                                Jim H
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: Glenn476
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 1:30 PM
                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                            I believe the old Bowser/Knapp Mountain was 1/8" scale.  gj
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 9:26 AM
                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                                  Larry,
                                                                 The ID you are looking for is a 4-8-2 Cast Brass Mountain that was made by Bill Bowser / Redlands Calif. The original engine and tender came from a company called Knapp. They had a shorting problem and when Bill Bowser got the design he changed the brass drivers, that had an insulation problem, to the type you see in your pictures. I can supply some more facts and dates if interested but this is a Bill Bowser item from Redlands Calif.
                                                                             Hope that helps.
                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: Larry
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:57 AM
                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?

                                                            Morning ya'll,

                                                            I figured since ID help was sort of the topic atm,
                                                            I would add a few pics of a what seems to be a Brass
                                                            Steam eninge I picked up, But I have no clue what so ever who or when
                                                            this was made.
                                                            it does run, but not real great,
                                                            thinking aboutsending to a fellow and having it backshopped, Probabaly
                                                            nothing more then a good tune up, motor and ajustment, But anyways,
                                                            if more pictures are needed, let me know and I'll get them posted
                                                            sometime,

                                                            Thanks,
                                                            Larry

                                                            the pic of the shelf if a string of mostly old brass/wood or metal cars
                                                            i picked up as well.


                                                            No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                            Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1939 - Release Date: 02/06/09 17:28:00
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8540 From: Larry Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                            WOW... all I can say, never had any idea I'd ever end up with a train
                                                            with an age like that.
                                                            i would love to here more about, the rest of the thread is really
                                                            interesting.
                                                            Thanks for the Help,

                                                            As for what year HO was really Estanlished as HO,
                                                            didn't somebody on another group several of us here are say
                                                            they have the whole year of MR for (1938? wasn't it?)

                                                            If I had to take a stab at HO becoming HO, remembering some of the
                                                            Trains Unlimited serious of shows, Wasn't the episiode of
                                                            Toy Trains talking/showing about HO in the 50s
                                                            So I would guess at least early 40s?

                                                            Larry

                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Larry,
                                                            > The ID you are looking for is a 4-8-2 Cast Brass Mountain that
                                                            was made by Bill Bowser / Redlands Calif. The original engine and
                                                            tender came from a company called Knapp. They had a shorting problem
                                                            and when Bill Bowser got the design he changed the brass drivers,
                                                            that had an insulation problem, to the type you see in your pictures.
                                                            I can supply some more facts and dates if interested but this is a
                                                            Bill Bowser item from Redlands Calif.
                                                            > Hope that helps.
                                                            > Jim H
                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                            > From: Larry
                                                            > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                            > Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:57 AM
                                                            > Subject: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Morning ya'll,
                                                            >
                                                            > I figured since ID help was sort of the topic atm,
                                                            > I would add a few pics of a what seems to be a Brass
                                                            > Steam eninge I picked up, But I have no clue what so ever who or
                                                            when
                                                            > this was made.
                                                            > it does run, but not real great,
                                                            > thinking aboutsending to a fellow and having it backshopped,
                                                            Probabaly
                                                            > nothing more then a good tune up, motor and ajustment, But
                                                            anyways,
                                                            > if more pictures are needed, let me know and I'll get them posted
                                                            > sometime,
                                                            >
                                                            > Thanks,
                                                            > Larry
                                                            >
                                                            > the pic of the shelf if a string of mostly old brass/wood or
                                                            metal cars
                                                            > i picked up as well.
                                                            >
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8541 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                            HO really began in earnest in the '30's.  The motors were 6 volt.  The rail was flat bars soldered to screw heads.  Couplers were a nightmare...  Then came Mantua Loop couplers and MDC cast couplers with operating knuckles...  Early Kadee was really rough but grew to be a greatly refined magnetic version.  The NMRA X2F became the standard coupler in sets and kits by the '50's.

                                                            I did not do much with HO for the past 20-30 years and now it is really something to behold.  Athearn has been around since they took over Globe models F7 diesel and now they are into several scales.  Some of the most beautiful box car and refer kits were made by Athearn during the late '40's-early '50's.  Many of us used fixed dummy knuckles for a while because other couplers were just not reliable.

                                                            Happy railroading.  Now it is better than ever.
                                                            Don in VA
                                                            =================================================

                                                            Larry wrote:

                                                            WOW... all I can say, never had any idea I'd ever end up with a train
                                                            with an age like that.
                                                            i would love to here more about, the rest of the thread is really
                                                            interesting.
                                                            Thanks for the Help,

                                                            As for what year HO was really Estanlished as HO,
                                                            didn't somebody on another group several of us here are say
                                                            they have the whole year of MR for (1938? wasn't it?)

                                                            If I had to take a stab at HO becoming HO, remembering some of the
                                                            Trains Unlimited serious of shows, Wasn't the episiode of
                                                            Toy Trains talking/showing about HO in the 50s
                                                            So I would guess at least early 40s?

                                                            Larry

                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Larry,
                                                            > The ID you are looking for is a 4-8-2 Cast Brass Mountain that
                                                            was made by Bill Bowser / Redlands Calif. The original engine and
                                                            tender came from a company called Knapp. They had a shorting problem
                                                            and when Bill Bowser got the design he changed the brass drivers,
                                                            that had an insulation problem, to the type you see in your pictures.
                                                            I can supply some more facts and dates if interested but this is a
                                                            Bill Bowser item from Redlands Calif.
                                                            > Hope that helps.
                                                            > Jim H
                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                            > From: Larry
                                                            > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                            > Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:57 AM
                                                            > Subject: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Morning ya'll,
                                                            >
                                                            > I figured since ID help was sort of the topic atm,
                                                            > I would add a few pics of a what seems to be a Brass
                                                            > Steam eninge I picked up, But I have no clue what so ever who or
                                                            when
                                                            > this was made.
                                                            > it does run, but not real great,
                                                            > thinking aboutsending to a fellow and having it backshopped,
                                                            Probabaly
                                                            > nothing more then a good tune up, motor and ajustment, But
                                                            anyways,
                                                            > if more pictures are needed, let me know and I'll get them posted
                                                            > sometime,
                                                            >
                                                            > Thanks,
                                                            > Larry
                                                            >
                                                            > the pic of the shelf if a string of mostly old brass/wood or
                                                            metal cars
                                                            > i picked up as well.
                                                            >
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8542 From: Chris B Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                            I do enjoy this group, and the way a small question produces such a wide range of great responses with information I never knew!
                                                            fwiw, I'm only in my late 50's, but I grew up with bound volumes of pre WWII MR, and I was always impressed with Alan Rice and his articles promoting HO, written under his pen name of Eric LaNal.  In 1994, the NMRA honored him as the 24th listed Pioneer of Model Railroading:
                                                            "24. Rice, Allan Lake*. PA. aka Eric LaNal. HO pioneer early 1930s. Promoting Hobby. Mfd. H. Owen HO kits with paper sides. Promotion. Author RMC, MR 1930s, 1960s. Pioneer in 2-rail HO. Consultant to several mfrs (Megow, Mantua). LaNal coupler inventor. Mfd in England. Manufacturer H. Owen HO Kits early 1930s. NMRA Distinguished Service Award 1962"

                                                            http://www.nmra.org/membership/honors/alltime.html

                                                            From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 7, 2009 6:00:19 PM
                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Steam ID, Brass?

                                                            HO really began in earnest in the '30's.  The motors were 6 volt.  The rail was flat bars soldered to screw heads.  Couplers were a nightmare...  Then came Mantua Loop couplers and MDC cast couplers with operating knuckles...  Early Kadee was really rough but grew to be a greatly refined magnetic version.  The NMRA X2F became the standard coupler in sets and kits by the '50's.

                                                            I did not do much with HO for the past 20-30 years and now it is really something to behold.  Athearn has been around since they took over Globe models F7 diesel and now they are into several scales.  Some of the most beautiful box car and refer kits were made by Athearn during the late '40's-early '50's.  Many of us used fixed dummy knuckles for a while because other couplers were just not reliable.

                                                            Happy railroading.  Now it is better than ever.
                                                            Don in VA
                                                            ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =

                                                            Larry wrote:

                                                            WOW... all I can say, never had any idea I'd ever end up with a train
                                                            with an age like that.
                                                            i would love to here more about, the rest of the thread is really
                                                            interesting.
                                                            Thanks for the Help,

                                                            As for what year HO was really Estanlished as HO,
                                                            didn't somebody on another group several of us here are say
                                                            they have the whole year of MR for (1938? wasn't it?)

                                                            If I had to take a stab at HO becoming HO, remembering some of the
                                                            Trains Unlimited serious of shows, Wasn't the episiode of
                                                            Toy Trains talking/showing about HO in the 50s
                                                            So I would guess at least early 40s?

                                                            Larry

                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Larry,
                                                            > The ID you are looking for is a 4-8-2 Cast Brass Mountain that
                                                            was made by Bill Bowser / Redlands Calif. The original engine and
                                                            tender came from a company called Knapp. They had a shorting problem
                                                            and when Bill Bowser got the design he changed the brass drivers,
                                                            that had an insulation problem, to the type you see in your pictures.
                                                            I can supply some more facts and dates if interested but this is a
                                                            Bill Bowser item from Redlands Calif.
                                                            > Hope that helps.
                                                            > Jim H
                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                            > From: Larry
                                                            > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                            > Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:57 AM
                                                            > Subject: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Morning ya'll,
                                                            >
                                                            > I figured since ID help was sort of the topic atm,
                                                            > I would add a few pics of a what seems to be a Brass
                                                            > Steam eninge I picked up, But I have no clue what so ever who or
                                                            when
                                                            > this was made.
                                                            > it does run, but not real great,
                                                            > thinking aboutsending to a fellow and having it backshopped,
                                                            Probabaly
                                                            > nothing more then a good tune up, motor and ajustment, But
                                                            anyways,
                                                            > if more pictures are needed, let me know and I'll get them posted
                                                            > sometime,
                                                            >
                                                            > Thanks,
                                                            > Larry
                                                            >
                                                            > the pic of the shelf if a string of mostly old brass/wood or
                                                            metal cars
                                                            > i picked up as well.
                                                            >
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8543 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                            As late as the 1980's there were some German HO that was 1:100! The
                                                            "economy" models from people like Lilliput and Roco were smaller that HO. A
                                                            lot of Faller buildings are still today made in the smaller scale.

                                                            Don
                                                            Don Dellmann
                                                            don.dellmann@...
                                                            http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                            http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                            Owner
                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
                                                            To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 3:02 PM
                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Steam ID, Brass?


                                                            > Some early manufacturers used 1/8" for HO. Non of those companies that
                                                            > went on to enjoy much in the way of popularity, thank goodness.
                                                            >
                                                            > Back when I was a youngster, I thought the 1/8 was the correct scale
                                                            > for HO. And this was from magazines/books I had read. Most likely from
                                                            > some very old books on model trains I read from the Appleton library.
                                                            > The selection of such books back in the mid-50's were pretty slim and
                                                            > most went back to the 30's or even earlier. I was always disappointed
                                                            > that they had little in the way of up-to-date books. But then there
                                                            > weren't many current books period.
                                                            >
                                                            > I also remember reading a review of a HO model in MR as recent as the
                                                            > late 50's, maybe even real early 60's that was built to 1/8" scale. The
                                                            > line in the review was "Unfortunately, it (the model in question) is
                                                            > constructed to 1/8" scale instead of the correct 3.5 mm". The article
                                                            > went on to state that it was a throw to the early HO days.
                                                            >
                                                            > John Hagen
                                                            >
                                                            > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote:
                                                            >>
                                                            >>
                                                            >> I have seen 1/8" per foot reffered to as E scale, nevere commercially
                                                            > available to my knowledge. The story was that some early H-0 makers
                                                            > found it more convenient to use that rather than 3.5 mm. Roger Aultman
                                                            >>
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > ------------------------------------
                                                            >
                                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8544 From: Larry Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                            This is really a cool group, and with all this vintage stuff I came
                                                            into, I even know what some of this stuff your talking of is,
                                                            I have several cars that have the loop couplers, and I know I changed
                                                            out alot of dummy couplers for Kadee, and ever a couple old Kadee
                                                            that were beyond help.
                                                            I think what I am really injoying about all this vintage stuff I
                                                            have, is the fact, looking at this stuff in kit form looks to tuff to
                                                            do, but after doing some light repairs to this stuff and seeing how
                                                            it really is assembled, it don't look so hard.
                                                            And I agree with you that some of this stuff is just beautifull,

                                                            I know names on some of this stuff, Gilbert, Lionel of course, MDC,
                                                            Athearn, Mantua, Marx, just to name a few, not sure about all the
                                                            brass or wood kits yet,

                                                            Thanks again for some really intersting and inforative information.

                                                            Larry

                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...>
                                                            wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > /HO really began in earnest in the '30's. The motors were 6 volt.
                                                            The
                                                            > rail was flat bars soldered to screw heads. Couplers were a
                                                            > nightmare... Then came Mantua Loop couplers and MDC cast couplers
                                                            with
                                                            > operating knuckles... Early Kadee was really rough but grew to be
                                                            a
                                                            > greatly refined magnetic version. The NMRA X2F became the standard
                                                            > coupler in sets and kits by the '50's.
                                                            >
                                                            > I did not do much with HO for the past 20-30 years and now it is
                                                            really
                                                            > something to behold. Athearn has been around since they took over
                                                            Globe
                                                            > models F7 diesel and now they are into several scales. Some of the
                                                            most
                                                            > beautiful box car and refer kits were made by Athearn during the
                                                            late
                                                            > '40's-early '50's. Many of us used fixed dummy knuckles for a
                                                            while
                                                            > because other couplers were just not reliable.
                                                            >
                                                            > Happy railroading. Now it is better than ever.
                                                            > Don in VA
                                                            > =================================================
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8545 From: Larry Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                            I have noticed this on several Faller buidlings,
                                                            I have this one really cool hotel thing, and it;s like a
                                                            in-between HO and N scale..... it could swing either way for layout
                                                            use if you placed it correctly.

                                                            "sorry if this is a little updated from posting about vintage"

                                                            Larry

                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                            wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > As late as the 1980's there were some German HO that was 1:100!
                                                            The
                                                            > "economy" models from people like Lilliput and Roco were smaller
                                                            that HO. A
                                                            > lot of Faller buildings are still today made in the smaller scale.
                                                            >
                                                            > Don
                                                            > Don Dellmann
                                                            > don.dellmann@...
                                                            > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                            > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                            > Owner
                                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                            > From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
                                                            > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                            > Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 3:02 PM
                                                            > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > > Some early manufacturers used 1/8" for HO. Non of those companies
                                                            that
                                                            > > went on to enjoy much in the way of popularity, thank goodness.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Back when I was a youngster, I thought the 1/8 was the correct
                                                            scale
                                                            > > for HO. And this was from magazines/books I had read. Most likely
                                                            from
                                                            > > some very old books on model trains I read from the Appleton
                                                            library.
                                                            > > The selection of such books back in the mid-50's were pretty slim
                                                            and
                                                            > > most went back to the 30's or even earlier. I was always
                                                            disappointed
                                                            > > that they had little in the way of up-to-date books. But then
                                                            there
                                                            > > weren't many current books period.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > I also remember reading a review of a HO model in MR as recent as
                                                            the
                                                            > > late 50's, maybe even real early 60's that was built to 1/8"
                                                            scale. The
                                                            > > line in the review was "Unfortunately, it (the model in question)
                                                            is
                                                            > > constructed to 1/8" scale instead of the correct 3.5 mm". The
                                                            article
                                                            > > went on to state that it was a throw to the early HO days.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > John Hagen
                                                            > >
                                                            > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote:
                                                            > >>
                                                            > >>
                                                            > >> I have seen 1/8" per foot reffered to as E scale, nevere
                                                            commercially
                                                            > > available to my knowledge. The story was that some early H-0
                                                            makers
                                                            > > found it more convenient to use that rather than 3.5 mm. Roger
                                                            Aultman
                                                            > >>
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > > ------------------------------------
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            >
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8546 From: Larry Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: MDC Motor brushes
                                                            I mention in my first post I needed a set "or even one" brush assembly
                                                            for the MDC 4-6-2,
                                                            Still looking for, but
                                                            I was at the LHS today and the owner was telling me that a guy there in
                                                            town that does motor work, could probably solder a brush on this brush
                                                            arm....
                                                            is that really possable, if so is this something that can be done right
                                                            on the workbench?

                                                            Larry
                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8547 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/7/2009
                                                            Subject: Knapp / Bowser redlands Mountains
                                                            Attachments :
                                                                  Larry,
                                                                   I am including 4 pictures with this email as I believe a picture worth a thousand words.  Hope you are set up to receive pictures that are an attachment to this Email.   First picture is the original cast brass Mountain with cast brass tender made by Knapp in 1938. They were located in Indianapolis, Indiana under the name Knapp Electrical Inc. They were ready to get into HO big time with this engine. This had a 6 volt motor. They were planning to produce freight and passenger cars later. The did produce a cast aluminum one piece coach but they started getting complaints that their engines had a big problem with a short developing in their brass drivers which you can see in the picture. It got bad enough to drive them out of the HO business. Second picture is the same engine and tender produced by Bill Bowser of Redlands Calif. (Years later he sold out to Lew English/Bowser now in Pennsylvania and the brass engine disappeared but came back as cast zamac) To rectify the shorting problem Bill Bowser changed the drivers and valve gear. You can see the diference in the pictures. He also went to a 12 volt motor and retained the same cast brass tender. This is the engine you have.
                                                                 Picture 3 is a copy of an ad for the Knapp engine in the Jan 1939 Model Railroader. Migh tbe a little hard to completely read . I don't have a scanner. The 4th picture is one page from the complete set of original plans from Bowser/Redlands California. The kit was sold a the M-1 of course. If you would like to see the complete set of plans for your engine and tender go to www.hoseeker.net. You should find them there.
                                                                 To hard to send the 8 to 10 pages in the set of plans. Hope this helps more with your identification.
                                                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                               
                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8548 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/7/2009
                                                              Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                              17/64" and Q Scale are NOT the same.  Both are "correcting scales" but they go opposite directions.  17/64" kept the 1 1/4" track gauge of O, but adjusted the scale so that the track scaled out to a proper 4' 8.5".  Q kept the 1/4" to the foot scale of O, but roughly corrected the track gauge (they used 1 3/16" which is still incorrect at 4'9")  As the interest in narrow gauge increased, most found it was a lot more convenient to stay with 1/4" scale--and eventually the "Finescale" track gauges began to catch on.    gj
                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                              Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 1:41 PM
                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Steam ID, Brass?

                                                              Hi John,
                                                               
                                                              As a former O scaler, also remember that back in the day, getting a real model railroad scale rule wasn't an option, so it was much easier for American modelers to stick with something they understood, and was easy, on the other hand, there were those who did try to enlarge from 1/4 inch to the foot and make it 17/64 scale, which some called Q scale.
                                                               
                                                              In the 60's, some guys got together and created 1/4 inch AAR finescale, which today is known as Proto48, there is also a group of modelers out there doing Proto87.............:o)
                                                               
                                                              Gary W

                                                               
                                                              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                              From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                              Sent: Saturday, February 7, 2009 3:43:56 PM
                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Steam ID, Brass?

                                                              Jim,

                                                              1/8 (0.125) is 90.7% HO scale (0.1378).

                                                              Back in early days of HO metric measurements were not readily available
                                                              here, nor were they wanted for that matter. Much the same reason I feel
                                                              that O scale is 1/4 instead of the proper 7 mm. Fortunately for us
                                                              HOer's by the time that HO began to gain momentum most modelers and
                                                              eventual manufacturers did not desire for HO to have the same
                                                              incongruity between scale and track gauge that O scale had, and, due to
                                                              the relatively advanced popularity of O at the time, were basically
                                                              stuck with.

                                                              BTW, 1/8 is 3.175 mm while OO is 4 mm.

                                                              John Hagen

                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > I'm not quit sure what you mean by !/8". Is that OO? The
                                                              Knapp/Bowser from Redlands Ca engines in everything I ever read about
                                                              them was HO scale and ran on HO track. The original Knapp promotion
                                                              paperwork says HO and that was 1938. By the way the Knapp motor was 6
                                                              volt and Bill Bowser changed his to 12 volt.
                                                              > How much difference would there be between HO scale and
                                                              1/8th.
                                                              >
                                                              Jim H



                                                              No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8549 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/7/2009
                                                              Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                              Quite a few, if not the majority of early published HO modeling plans
                                                              were scaled to 1/8"/ft. scale rather than to the more correct 3.5 mm/
                                                              foot. This was easy inasmuch as many of the plans were themselves
                                                              scaled down from the then-dominant 1/4"/ft. O scale. How much this had
                                                              to do with early HO gauge commercial products being made to 1/8"
                                                              scale, I do not know, but I am sure that the influence was not
                                                              negligible.

                                                              As to HO 1/8"/ft. manufacturers not surviving, Walthers was an early
                                                              adopter of the 1/8" scale, their early embossed paper-side, and first
                                                              metal side passenger cars being scaled to this measurement. I am
                                                              looking at one of the latter as I speak.

                                                              I have a feeling that a good deal of the early HO gauge rolling stock,
                                                              and structures were in fact made to 1/8" scale, and we simply do not
                                                              notice it.

                                                              Denny


                                                              Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                              Sacramento
                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8550 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/7/2009
                                                              Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?

                                                              Larry,

                                                              Those Faller kits have been that way since the 50’s at least, so it is vintage.  That is when I got some of mine and they are smaller.  I never knew why before, but had noticed it years ago.

                                                               

                                                              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                               

                                                              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Larry
                                                              Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 6:59 PM
                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                              Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Steam ID, Brass?

                                                               

                                                              I have noticed this on several Faller buidlings,
                                                              I have this one really cool hotel thing, and it;s like a
                                                              in-between HO and N scale..... it could swing either way for layout
                                                              use if you placed it correctly.

                                                              "sorry if this is a little updated from posting about vintage"

                                                              Larry
                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8551 From: John Hagen Date: 2/7/2009
                                                              Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                              Denny,

                                                              Yeah, I remember that now. And I think some even carried the
                                                              note "Full size for HO scale".

                                                              That all goes back to the lack of basic metric measuring and scaling
                                                              devices (rulers) plus the name HO coming from it being "Half O" in
                                                              scale. It is in England where O is 7 mm. And early track was the same
                                                              gauge as that used in England as they had the first production
                                                              models. Companies like Ives and Lionel wanted their products to run
                                                              on the same rail and that set our track gauge.

                                                              In this day and age of metrics and calculators etc. it amazes me that
                                                              anyone thought it was easier to use a scale of 17/64ths as opposed to
                                                              7 mm. But if one was good with a slide rule (the calculator of the
                                                              day) one could scale quickly and accurately. Wish I still had my dads
                                                              old slide rule. He did engineering work in the 30's and 40's and had
                                                              a good one.

                                                              Its been a long time since using a slide rule was taught in our
                                                              schools. I feel lucky to have had the instructions although now I
                                                              could only remember the basic uses. Never did get Trig too well so I
                                                              have forgotten all that sine, cosine and logarithms, etc. stuff.

                                                              But then I don't think kids now days are taught how to read a clock
                                                              that isn't digital.

                                                              John Hagen

                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > Quite a few, if not the majority of early published HO modeling
                                                              plans
                                                              > were scaled to 1/8"/ft. scale rather than to the more correct 3.5
                                                              mm/
                                                              > foot. This was easy inasmuch as many of the plans were themselves
                                                              > scaled down from the then-dominant 1/4"/ft. O scale. How much this
                                                              had
                                                              > to do with early HO gauge commercial products being made to 1/8"
                                                              > scale, I do not know, but I am sure that the influence was not
                                                              > negligible.
                                                              >
                                                              > As to HO 1/8"/ft. manufacturers not surviving, Walthers was an
                                                              early
                                                              > adopter of the 1/8" scale, their early embossed paper-side, and
                                                              first
                                                              > metal side passenger cars being scaled to this measurement. I am
                                                              > looking at one of the latter as I speak.
                                                              >
                                                              > I have a feeling that a good deal of the early HO gauge rolling
                                                              stock,
                                                              > and structures were in fact made to 1/8" scale, and we simply do
                                                              not
                                                              > notice it.
                                                              >
                                                              > Denny
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                              > Sacramento
                                                              >
                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8552 From: Larry Date: 2/7/2009
                                                              Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser redlands Mountains
                                                              Sorry Jim, no pictures,
                                                              I don't have a clue how to see them in the groups unless I go to
                                                              getting each email seperate, an with all the Ebay and other stuff,
                                                              i've keep track of anything.

                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > Larry,
                                                              > I am including 4 pictures with this email as I believe a
                                                              picture worth a thousand words. Hope you are set up to receive
                                                              pictures that are an attachment to this Email. First picture is the
                                                              original cast brass Mountain with cast brass tender made by Knapp in
                                                              1938. They were located in Indianapolis, Indiana under the name Knapp
                                                              Electrical Inc. They were ready to get into HO big time with this
                                                              engine. This had a 6 volt motor. They were planning to produce
                                                              freight and passenger cars later. The did produce a cast aluminum one
                                                              piece coach but they started getting complaints that their engines
                                                              had a big problem with a short developing in their brass drivers
                                                              which you can see in the picture. It got bad enough to drive them out
                                                              of the HO business. Second picture is the same engine and tender
                                                              produced by Bill Bowser of Redlands Calif. (Years later he sold out
                                                              to Lew English/Bowser now in Pennsylvania and the brass engine
                                                              disappeared but came back as cast zamac) To rectify the shorting
                                                              problem Bill Bowser changed the drivers and valve gear. You can see
                                                              the diference in the pictures. He also went to a 12 volt motor and
                                                              retained the same cast brass tender. This is the engine you have.
                                                              > Picture 3 is a copy of an ad for the Knapp engine in the Jan
                                                              1939 Model Railroader. Migh tbe a little hard to completely read . I
                                                              don't have a scanner. The 4th picture is one page from the complete
                                                              set of original plans from Bowser/Redlands California. The kit was
                                                              sold a the M-1 of course. If you would like to see the complete set
                                                              of plans for your engine and tender go to www.hoseeker.net. You
                                                              should find them there.
                                                              > To hard to send the 8 to 10 pages in the set of plans. Hope this
                                                              helps more with your identification.
                                                              >
                                                              Jim H
                                                              >
                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8553 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 2/7/2009
                                                              Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser redlands Mountains
                                                              Attachments :
                                                                Lennard Stewart wrote:
                                                                   Hi Jim
                                                                          Why don't you put them in the photos section then everyone can see them. Just let us know what the name of the album is.
                                                                Lennard Stewart
Owner of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1-87scalevehiclesales/


                                                                Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                    Larry,
                                                                     I am including 4 pictures with this email as I believe a picture worth a thousand words.  Hope you are set up to receive pictures that are an attachment to this Email.   First picture is the original cast brass Mountain with cast brass tender made by Knapp in 1938. They were located in Indianapolis, Indiana under the name Knapp Electrical Inc. They were ready to get into HO big time with this engine. This had a 6 volt motor. They were planning to produce freight and passenger cars later. The did produce a cast aluminum one piece coach but they started getting complaints that their engines had a big problem with a short developing in their brass drivers which you can see in the picture. It got bad enough to drive them out of the HO business. Second picture is the same engine and tender produced by Bill Bowser of Redlands Calif. (Years later he sold out to Lew English/Bowser now in Pennsylvania and the brass engine disappeared but came back as cast zamac) To rectify the shorting problem Bill Bowser changed the drivers and valve gear. You can see the diference in the pictures. He also went to a 12 volt motor and retained the same cast brass tender. This is the engine you have.
                                                                   Picture 3 is a copy of an ad for the Knapp engine in the Jan 1939 Model Railroader. Migh tbe a little hard to completely read . I don't have a scanner. The 4th picture is one page from the complete set of original plans from Bowser/Redlands California. The kit was sold a the M-1 of course. If you would like to see the complete set of plans for your engine and tender go to www.hoseeker. net. You should find them there.
                                                                   To hard to send the 8 to 10 pages in the set of plans. Hope this helps more with your identification.
                                                                                                                                                   Jim H
                                                                 
                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8554 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/7/2009
                                                                Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                                Hi Denny,
                                                                 
                                                                I have an old Model Railroad Cyclopedia, which is an old hard covered book, many of the plans in that book are 1/8 inch scale, it was very common when those books were published..........:o)
                                                                 
                                                                Gary W
                                                                 

                                                                 
                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                Sent: Saturday, February 7, 2009 8:31:40 PM
                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Steam ID, Brass?

                                                                Quite a few, if not the majority of early published HO modeling plans
                                                                were scaled to 1/8"/ft. scale rather than to the more correct 3.5 mm/
                                                                foot. This was easy inasmuch as many of the plans were themselves
                                                                scaled down from the then-dominant 1/4"/ft. O scale. How much this had
                                                                to do with early HO gauge commercial products being made to 1/8"
                                                                scale, I do not know, but I am sure that the influence was not
                                                                negligible.

                                                                As to HO 1/8"/ft. manufacturers not surviving, Walthers was an early
                                                                adopter of the 1/8" scale, their early embossed paper-side, and first
                                                                metal side passenger cars being scaled to this measurement. I am
                                                                looking at one of the latter as I speak.

                                                                I have a feeling that a good deal of the early HO gauge rolling stock,
                                                                and structures were in fact made to 1/8" scale, and we simply do not
                                                                notice it.

                                                                Denny

                                                                Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                Sacramento
                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8555 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/7/2009
                                                                Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                                Hi Larry,
                                                                 
                                                                The guy who wrote the Collectors Consist for RMC years ago did a history of HO, it actually got its start in England in the early 1920's, never really caught on in this country until after the depression, kind of same thing with N scale in this country, N scale went downhill from the time it started because Atlas was no longer producing their N scale engines via Rivarossi, and Con-Cor was the only game in town for most of the 1970's and early 80's, HO had a similar history..............:o)
                                                                 
                                                                Gary W

                                                                 
                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                From: Larry <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                Sent: Saturday, February 7, 2009 5:38:13 PM
                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Steam ID, Brass?

                                                                WOW... all I can say, never had any idea I'd ever end up with a train
                                                                with an age like that.
                                                                i would love to here more about, the rest of the thread is really
                                                                interesting.
                                                                Thanks for the Help,

                                                                As for what year HO was really Estanlished as HO,
                                                                didn't somebody on another group several of us here are say
                                                                they have the whole year of MR for (1938? wasn't it?)

                                                                If I had to take a stab at HO becoming HO, remembering some of the
                                                                Trains Unlimited serious of shows, Wasn't the episiode of
                                                                Toy Trains talking/showing about HO in the 50s
                                                                So I would guess at least early 40s?

                                                                Larry

                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                > Larry,
                                                                > The ID you are looking for is a 4-8-2 Cast Brass Mountain that
                                                                was made by Bill Bowser / Redlands Calif. The original engine and
                                                                tender came from a company called Knapp. They had a shorting problem
                                                                and when Bill Bowser got the design he changed the brass drivers,
                                                                that had an insulation problem, to the type you see in your pictures.
                                                                I can supply some more facts and dates if interested but this is a
                                                                Bill Bowser item from Redlands Calif.
                                                                > Hope that helps.
                                                                > Jim H
                                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                > From: Larry
                                                                > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                > Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:57 AM
                                                                > Subject: [vintageHO] Steam ID, Brass?
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > Morning ya'll,
                                                                >
                                                                > I figured since ID help was sort of the topic atm,
                                                                > I would add a few pics of a what seems to be a Brass
                                                                > Steam eninge I picked up, But I have no clue what so ever who or
                                                                when
                                                                > this was made.
                                                                > it does run, but not real great,
                                                                > thinking aboutsending to a fellow and having it backshopped,
                                                                Probabaly
                                                                > nothing more then a good tune up, motor and ajustment, But
                                                                anyways,
                                                                > if more pictures are needed, let me know and I'll get them posted
                                                                > sometime,
                                                                >
                                                                > Thanks,
                                                                > Larry
                                                                >
                                                                > the pic of the shelf if a string of mostly old brass/wood or
                                                                metal cars
                                                                > i picked up as well.
                                                                >
                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8556 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/7/2009
                                                                Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                                I have that same book.......... It's great !

                                                                I'm glad you mentioned it. It will be great to scan, rescale, and cnc-cut models from.

                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                On Feb 7, 2009, at 11:57 PM, Gary Woodard wrote:

                                                                Hi Denny,
                                                                 
                                                                I have an old Model Railroad Cyclopedia, which is an old hard covered book, many of the plans in that book are 1/8 inch scale, it was very common when those books were published..........:o)
                                                                ..........
                                                                From: Denny Anspach 

                                                                Quite a few, if not the majority of early published HO modeling plans 
                                                                were scaled to 1/8"/ft. scale rather than to the more correct 3.5 mm/ 
                                                                foot. ............
                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8557 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/7/2009
                                                                Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                                Hi Mike,
                                                                 
                                                                Mine isn't in very good condition, but the plates are all there, also shows a lot of the modeling techniques of that that the old timers before us used in creating their models...............:o)
                                                                 
                                                                Gary W

                                                                 
                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 1:25:01 AM
                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Steam ID, Brass?

                                                                I have that same book........ .. It's great !


                                                                I'm glad you mentioned it. It will be great to scan, rescale, and cnc-cut models from.

                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                On Feb 7, 2009, at 11:57 PM, Gary Woodard wrote:

                                                                Hi Denny,
                                                                 
                                                                I have an old Model Railroad Cyclopedia, which is an old hard covered book, many of the plans in that book are 1/8 inch scale, it was very common when those books were published... .......:o)
                                                                ..........
                                                                From: Denny Anspach 

                                                                Quite a few, if not the majority of early published HO modeling plans 
                                                                were scaled to 1/8"/ft. scale rather than to the more correct 3.5 mm/ 
                                                                foot. ............
                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8558 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                Subject: Re: HH 600
                                                                This kit was available from Walthers as late as 1979 (their catalog
                                                                number - 933-279). Came as a 5 piece set, roof, 2 ends and 2 sides,
                                                                but no sideframes at this time and no detail parts. It is extremely
                                                                heavy -- if it's not pure lead, then its a lead alloy consisting
                                                                mostly of lead (its not zamac). I have several of them; at the time
                                                                (late ' 70's) they were priced at $4.99. Ray Wetzel



                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                > These are pictures of the post war HH-600 made by Walthers.
                                                                As I stated already I think the item on Ebay that is brass/bronze was
                                                                made before the war. I have plans from 1938 for it. The plans with
                                                                this mint boxed kit, that has been assembled, has plans dated 1946.
                                                                They are a very light green and doesn't show up well. This is made
                                                                from lead and extremely heavy same as the brass/bronze. There is a
                                                                set of sideframes with it. In the box are detail parts like ladder
                                                                material and railing.
                                                                > Jim H
                                                                >
                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8559 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                Subject: Re: New Memeber Larry
                                                                Hi Larry, Looks like that other group pointed you in the right
                                                                direction; welcome aboard! I'm sure you'll find something of
                                                                interest here, you just need to ask and/or browse the archives.
                                                                Don't forget about the files, too. Good choice of roads (BN and
                                                                predecessors) to model and a good reason for doing so. My great
                                                                uncle was a boilermaker for the ERIE road. Needless to say, this is
                                                                one of my favorites, but then I'm not limited there since there were
                                                                so many interesting railroads around these parts when I grew up.
                                                                Appears as if you have a pretty decent collection, hope to hear more
                                                                from you soon. Ray Wetzel



                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" <larry_l_doub@...> wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                > Hi group,
                                                                >
                                                                > Thought I would jump on here and say Hello, give a litle bit of info
                                                                > so you know I'm a modeler.
                                                                >
                                                                > I'm Larry, Hale from Iowa, I'm 44, I model the BN, CB&Q and
                                                                > Burlington, collect alot of the Merger roads like NP, GN, and
                                                                related
                                                                > roads up to the BN,
                                                                > "Grandfather worked on the CB&Q his whole life" why I model all
                                                                this.
                                                                > I've been modeling for a good time now,
                                                                > since the early 90s, but alot of that time to stuff was in storage,
                                                                > My collection was around 100 locos, 400+ cars, and lord knows what
                                                                > else in buildings, parts ext,
                                                                > I came across a guy selling his dads 30+ year collection, and I
                                                                > must say, WOW.... yup, just WOW,
                                                                > I have bought alot of old old stuff in the last couple months,
                                                                > Brass, wood, wood and metal, metal car kits and old steam from MDC
                                                                > and Mantua... Alot of really cool stuff that I am having fun
                                                                working
                                                                > on getting back up to be able to rail run...
                                                                >
                                                                > Just wanted to jump in while I was here for a minute and give my
                                                                > little Hello..
                                                                >
                                                                > I am looking for a set of brushes for an old MDC 2-6-2 steam
                                                                engine,
                                                                > I was directed here from another group when I posted for the parts.
                                                                > Looks like a cool group you have here,
                                                                > Thanks for lending me your ears Guys n Gals,
                                                                >
                                                                > Larry
                                                                >
                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8560 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                Subject: Re: kit or project ?
                                                                Good Morning Jim, Okay, back here to your mystery engine. I don't
                                                                believe it's a kitbash job. I was just now going through my old
                                                                issues of the HO SC&H SIG Reporting Mark issues for an article I
                                                                wrote on Railmaster, when I came across something extremely
                                                                interesting. There's a 4-page article with illustrations on some of
                                                                our "old friend" Harry Garrett's products. One of these products
                                                                appears to possibly be your engine, and while it doesn't show all the
                                                                separated detail parts (cab window frames, ribbing on the sides of
                                                                the body, etc.) that you described -- and what I remember seeing of
                                                                the Ebay photo -- I'm willing to bet this may be it.

                                                                This kit was made of bronze. The cab came separate, the back is
                                                                solid bronze and the frame is made of solid bronze pieces to be
                                                                soldered together. Even looks like there may be 8 exhaust and air
                                                                scoops, but they're not shown as being separate (maybe this
                                                                particular model in this illustration was already started by this
                                                                time). If this is it, which is a good bet, it's a Garco model (Harry
                                                                J. Garrett & Co. -- Scale Model Supplies) simply described as an "EMC
                                                                Passenger Diesel" (which we already knew since it's quite obvious).
                                                                There was an A-Unit and a B-unit, both sold separately and they were
                                                                made in both 0 Gauge and H0 Gauge. The B-Unit (H0) was offered in
                                                                either bronze or aluminum -- cost $$10.00. The A-Unit (H0) cost
                                                                $12.50. I think you said you have all the issue -- go back to Volume
                                                                9, Number 2 (April 1991) and you'll see what I mean. Ray Wetzel



                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                > A few days ago I won an item on Ebay that (1) was
                                                                unsure what prototype it was (2) was it a kit, an already assembled
                                                                manufactured item or some ones project. Thanks to many who identified
                                                                it I know what the engine is meant to represent.
                                                                > The item arrived today and it still makes me wonder. It still
                                                                could be a kit that was assembled. Who ever did it was very good at
                                                                soldering as you will see as I describe the construction. I wish I
                                                                was that good. Yet it could still be "parts" the builder used to make
                                                                his/her project.
                                                                > The nose of the item from behind the first side window is
                                                                cast and soldered to the rest. The skirt/pilot on the front under the
                                                                cab is cast and attached by little screws. The main body is sheet
                                                                brass. The frame is solid brass pieces soldered together and the back
                                                                is a solid piece of brass. The construction that fascinates me the
                                                                most are (1) All ribbing on the sides of the body are separate
                                                                little pieces of brass soldered on. (2) The cab windows plus the
                                                                windows on the sides of the body are all pieces that have been shaped
                                                                (the cab windows) and soldered on. Inside the windows on the sides
                                                                of the body have brass pieces soldered on that allow you to "slip" in
                                                                window material and it will be held in place (3) The detail on top
                                                                has been soldered on. Every (all 8) exhaust and air scoops are
                                                                separate pieces that have been soldered into the created openings.
                                                                (4) The top of the cab has an added piece of brass shaped that
                                                                covers the joint of the cast brass cabin and the sheet brass body. It
                                                                is attached by little screws that let it lay on the tops of the front
                                                                window frames and is soldered there. (4) The hanging ladders and
                                                                including the ladder material located on the body under the middle
                                                                side window are soldered on.
                                                                > I have a feeling this model is a couple of years old since the
                                                                lamp for lighting the two headlights is very large. It definitely is
                                                                not a grain of wheat bulb. This engine will be finished as I find
                                                                some missing drive parts.
                                                                > SEAN N I'LL BE CONTACTING YOU TO FIND, HOPEFULLY, SOME MISSING
                                                                COMPONENTS.
                                                                > Whether a kit now assemble, a manufactured item or some ones
                                                                project it will be fun and interesting.
                                                                >
                                                                Jim H
                                                                >
                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8561 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                Subject: Re: Utah Scale Models - was; Steam ID, Brass?
                                                                Hi Chuck, Not related to the previous topic, while while I caught
                                                                your ear -- first, I want to thank you for filing all the Red Ball
                                                                info I sent you. Next, did I ever send you info on Railmaster? I
                                                                received a request on it off list and looked for it in the files but
                                                                can't find it. If not, I'll send this one out next for you to do a
                                                                spread sheet if we still need it. Many thanks, Ray Wetzel



                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                > Larry,
                                                                >
                                                                > Those Faller kits have been that way since the 50's at least, so it
                                                                is
                                                                > vintage. That is when I got some of mine and they are smaller. I
                                                                never
                                                                > knew why before, but had noticed it years ago.
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > _____
                                                                >
                                                                > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
                                                                On Behalf
                                                                > Of Larry
                                                                > Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 6:59 PM
                                                                > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > I have noticed this on several Faller buidlings,
                                                                > I have this one really cool hotel thing, and it;s like a
                                                                > in-between HO and N scale..... it could swing either way for layout
                                                                > use if you placed it correctly.
                                                                >
                                                                > "sorry if this is a little updated from posting about vintage"
                                                                >
                                                                > Larry
                                                                >
                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8562 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                Subject: Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)
                                                                There's presently an apparent vintage H0 "cattle car" (stock car)
                                                                listed on Ebay, as #280311112352, an Oregon Electric cattle car (side
                                                                number #401) that the Seller feels may be an Ulrich product, because of
                                                                its similarity to this manufacturer. As far as I know, Ulrich never
                                                                made this, and doubt very much it is an Ulrich, but out of curiousity --
                                                                does anyone know who could have produced this. While I'm not
                                                                interested in bidding on it, it looks like an interesting piece, as it
                                                                appears to be factory finished including the lettering, although I
                                                                haven't questioned the Seller to ask if it's decaled or not (I will do
                                                                so if we can't come up with an answer). I've never seen this roadname
                                                                on any kit before. Any guesses? Ray W.
                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8563 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                Subject: Re: Utah Scale Models

                                                                Hi Ray,

                                                                I loaded a file in August.  It is just below the Penn Line and above the Red Ball file when I look at the files section.  Please look again and let me know what you find.

                                                                Take care,

                                                                 

                                                                Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                 

                                                                From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:49 AM
                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Utah Scale Models - was; Steam ID, Brass?

                                                                 

                                                                Hi Chuck, Not related to the previous topic, while while I caught
                                                                your ear -- first, I want to thank you for filing all the Red Ball
                                                                info I sent you. Next, did I ever send you info on Railmaster? I
                                                                received a request on it off list and looked for it in the files but
                                                                can't find it. If not, I'll send this one out next for you to do a
                                                                spread sheet if we still need it. Many thanks, Ray Wetzel
                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8564 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                                We likely have the books in the same condition. On mine, the outside spine has pulled away and the pages seem to be a bit loose. 

                                                                It's still treasure in my eyes.

                                                                I'm glad I bought it and similar obsolete  DIY model RR books from the swap meets so many years ago.

                                                                One of those  is a spiral spined Kalmbach  DIY book of Frank Taylor's work. There is a very detailed article on making a distinctive  Milwaukee Road late 1920's Doodlebug that I don't think I have ever seen as a commercial model.

                                                                I'm still very tempted by the Mel Thornburgh book on building that  B&O steam era commuter train. Another DIY book  has a great  illustration of how a multiple layered car side goes together, While that is a bit obscure, after 60 years it gets to see life again  as an on-line image [and inspiration] in a cnc-cutting modeling e-list.

                                                                I'm convinced that these  books have only been slumbering until  cnc-machines got cheap and easy enough to use to build from them.

                                                                I think I remember that there are two nice  doodlebug/rail-bus's in that treasured old Kalmbach  Model Cyclopedia. Sure would be fun to build.

                                                                Best to ya'
                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                On Feb 8, 2009, at 12:42 AM, Gary Woodard wrote:

                                                                Hi Mike,
                                                                 
                                                                Mine isn't in very good condition, but the plates are all there, also shows a lot of the modeling techniques of that that the old timers before us used in creating their models...............:o)
                                                                 
                                                                Gary W

                                                                 
                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                From: Mike Bauers 

                                                                I have that same book........ .. It's great !


                                                                I'm glad you mentioned it. It will be great to scan, rescale, and cnc-cut models from.

                                                                On Feb 7, 2009, at 11:57 PM, Gary Woodard wrote:

                                                                Hi Denny,
                                                                 
                                                                I have an old Model Railroad Cyclopedia, which is an old hard covered book, many of the plans in that book are 1/8 inch scale, it was very common when those books were published... .......:o)
                                                                ..........
                                                                From: Denny Anspach 

                                                                Quite a few, if not the majority of early published HO modeling plans 
                                                                were scaled to 1/8"/ft. scale rather than to the more correct 3.5 mm/ 
                                                                foot. ............
                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8565 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                Subject: Re: Utah Scale Models

                                                                It is under Railmasters and not Utah Scale Models.  Should I change the title?

                                                                 

                                                                Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                 

                                                                From: Chuck Higdon [mailto:vze5crrw1@...]
                                                                Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 9:22 AM
                                                                To: ' vintageHO@yahoogroups.com '
                                                                Subject: RE:[vintageHO] Re: Utah Scale Models

                                                                 

                                                                Hi Ray,

                                                                I loaded a file in August.  It is just below the Penn Line and above the Red Ball file when I look at the files section.  Please look again and let me know what you find.

                                                                Take care,

                                                                 

                                                                Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                 

                                                                From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:49 AM
                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Utah Scale Models - was; Steam ID, Brass?

                                                                 

                                                                Hi Chuck, Not related to the previous topic, while while I caught
                                                                your ear -- first, I want to thank you for filing all the Red Ball
                                                                info I sent you. Next, did I ever send you info on Railmaster? I
                                                                received a request on it off list and looked for it in the files but
                                                                can't find it. If not, I'll send this one out next for you to do a
                                                                spread sheet if we still need it. Many thanks, Ray Wetzel
                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8566 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser redlands Mountains

                                                                Hi Lennard,

                                                                There is a Photo section of Jim’s photos.  It has 110 of them and I believe that most of the 4 recant ones are there already.  This should get you there.

                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/269083576/pic/list

                                                                Take care,

                                                                Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                 

                                                                From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Lennard Stewart
                                                                Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:50 PM
                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Knapp / Bowser redlands Mountains

                                                                 

                                                                Lennard Stewart wrote:
                                                                   Hi Jim
                                                                          Why don't you put them in the photos section then everyone can see them. Just let us know what the name of the album is.

                                                                Lennard Stewart
                                                                Owner of http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/1-87scalev ehiclesales/



                                                                Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                    Larry,

                                                                     I am including 4 pictures with this email as I believe a picture worth a thousand words.  Hope you are set up to receive pictures that are an attachment to this Email.   First picture is the original cast brass Mountain with cast brass tender made by Knapp in 1938. They were located in Indianapolis , Indiana under the name Knapp Electrical Inc. They were ready to get into HO big time with this engine. This had a 6 volt motor. They were planning to produce freight and passenger cars later. The did produce a cast aluminum one piece coach but they started getting complaints that their engines had a big problem with a short developing in their brass drivers which you can see in the picture. It got bad enough to drive them out of the HO business. Second picture is the same engine and tender produced by Bill Bowser of Redlands Calif. (Years later he sold out to Lew English/Bowser now in Pennsylvania and the brass engine disappeared but came back as cast zamac) To rectify the shorting problem Bill Bowser changed the drivers and valve gear. You can see the diference in the pictures. He also went to a 12 volt motor and retained the same cast brass tender. This is the engine you have.

                                                                   Picture 3 is a copy of an ad for the Knapp engine in the Jan 1939 Model Railroader. Migh tbe a little hard to completely read . I don't have a scanner. The 4th picture is one page from the complete set of original plans from Bowser/Redlands California. The kit was sold a the M-1 of course. If you would like to see the complete set of plans for your engine and tender go to www.hoseeker. net. You should find them there.

                                                                   To hard to send the 8 to 10 pages in the set of plans. Hope this helps more with your identification.

                                                                                                                                                   Jim H

                                                                 
                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8567 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser redlands Mountains
                                                                      Larry and Lennard,
                                                                           Sorry  I don't always enter my pictures in the album I do have already that contains a large number of photos. Due to my set up and sometimes lack of knowledge it is easier for me to just send them with the description I send.  I like you have to much  in my Email box already but in reverse.  I receive each Email separate because I have to take care of it and other things ASAP. It is not only train related and  I have a phone line connection. Time constraints make it easier to send as an attachment rather then cut, copy, paste and send separate, especially when not very good with a computer and a one finger typist. I have to enter one picture at a time into the album or my computer goes off and I have to start again.
                                                                            I would love to accommodate everyone .However this is best for me. I can suggest that you check the album I do have, which actually is created for me by someone else. I do belong to other Yahoo groups.  Oh wash my mouth out with soap.     Don please don't throw me out for mentioning this.     In one I have an album of 300+ photos each of a single items. Perhaps you are a member of that group too. Again I was sending 6 pictures with a write-up as to what the picture was for a persons knowledge. He in turn first created that album and I add to it when I can.
                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                            
                                                                    
                                                                        
                                                                 
                                                                 
                                                                 
                                                                 
                                                                 
                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                From: Larry
                                                                Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:41 PM
                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser redlands Mountains

                                                                Sorry Jim, no pictures,
                                                                I don't have a clue how to see them in the groups unless I go to
                                                                getting each email seperate, an with all the Ebay and other stuff,
                                                                i've keep track of anything.

                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                > Larry,
                                                                > I am including 4 pictures with this email as I believe a
                                                                picture worth a thousand words. Hope you are set up to receive
                                                                pictures that are an attachment to this Email. First picture is the
                                                                original cast brass Mountain with cast brass tender made by Knapp in
                                                                1938. They were located in Indianapolis, Indiana under the name Knapp
                                                                Electrical Inc. They were ready to get into HO big time with this
                                                                engine. This had a 6 volt motor. They were planning to produce
                                                                freight and passenger cars later. The did produce a cast aluminum one
                                                                piece coach but they started getting complaints that their engines
                                                                had a big problem with a short developing in their brass drivers
                                                                which you can see in the picture. It got bad enough to drive them out
                                                                of the HO business. Second picture is the same engine and tender
                                                                produced by Bill Bowser of Redlands Calif. (Years later he sold out
                                                                to Lew English/Bowser now in Pennsylvania and the brass engine
                                                                disappeared but came back as cast zamac) To rectify the shorting
                                                                problem Bill Bowser changed the drivers and valve gear. You can see
                                                                the diference in the pictures. He also went to a 12 volt motor and
                                                                retained the same cast brass tender. This is the engine you have.
                                                                > Picture 3 is a copy of an ad for the Knapp engine in the Jan
                                                                1939 Model Railroader. Migh tbe a little hard to completely read . I
                                                                don't have a scanner. The 4th picture is one page from the complete
                                                                set of original plans from Bowser/Redlands California. The kit was
                                                                sold a the M-1 of course. If you would like to see the complete set
                                                                of plans for your engine and tender go to www.hoseeker. net. You
                                                                should find them there.
                                                                > To hard to send the 8 to 10 pages in the set of plans. Hope this
                                                                helps more with your identification.
                                                                >
                                                                Jim H
                                                                >
                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8568 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                Subject: What color should the sides be
                                                                Attachments :

                                                                  Hello, I would like some suggestions about color.  I have seen the edges of layouts painted brown or green.  But would blue look OK?  I am workinig on a three layer layout and just not sure what color to stay with.  I would like to hear your thoughts.  I have attached some photos with the blue.

                                                                  Thanks and take care.

                                                                   

                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                   
                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8569 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                  Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                                  The Kalmbach Model Railroad Cyclopedias (all editions) are really
                                                                  interesting- on multiple levels- and I treasure each and every one.

                                                                  The Collector Corner column in RMC is mentioned by one lister. Over
                                                                  the years I have found too many careless errors (beyond nit-picking),
                                                                  and lack of basic fact-checking in that column to be reliable.
                                                                  Unfortunately, for many, the column will continue to be a definitive
                                                                  source of information inasmuch as almost nothing else has been
                                                                  published on many of the subjects.

                                                                  Denny




                                                                  Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                  Sacramento
                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8570 From: Larry Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                  Subject: Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)
                                                                  I can't give a guess to who made it as I'm still learning the makers of
                                                                  the eara, but the Oregon Electric wording looks crooked <spelling) to
                                                                  me, the car info lettering looks like factory print.

                                                                  I hope it aint worth a million,
                                                                  I do believe I passed up a couple of these in the
                                                                  collection when I went over it lol,

                                                                  Larry


                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                  >
                                                                  > There's presently an apparent vintage H0 "cattle car" (stock car)
                                                                  > listed on Ebay, as #280311112352, an Oregon Electric cattle car (side
                                                                  > number #401) that the Seller feels may be an Ulrich product, because
                                                                  of
                                                                  > its similarity to this manufacturer. As far as I know, Ulrich never
                                                                  > made this, and doubt very much it is an Ulrich, but out of
                                                                  curiousity --
                                                                  > does anyone know who could have produced this. While I'm not
                                                                  > interested in bidding on it, it looks like an interesting piece, as
                                                                  it
                                                                  > appears to be factory finished including the lettering, although I
                                                                  > haven't questioned the Seller to ask if it's decaled or not (I will
                                                                  do
                                                                  > so if we can't come up with an answer). I've never seen this
                                                                  roadname
                                                                  > on any kit before. Any guesses? Ray W.
                                                                  >
                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8571 From: Larry Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                  Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                  Just one mans opinion,
                                                                  I've noticed it;s always green or brown in
                                                                  most layouts, but I do think I have seen blue.

                                                                  My thoughts on this was to "if I'm ever to this point"
                                                                  painting it like the real earth, layers of color to loosely replicate
                                                                  the layers of earth if you seen half a hillside removed.

                                                                  But my thoughts are, what ever the color may be, I think it should be
                                                                  a color that is more dull then the layout or what is on the
                                                                  layout "scenery" to not take any of the focus away from the layout.
                                                                  If you try to watch yourself when looking at something, more times
                                                                  then not, your eyes are/might be more ap to focus on brighter colors
                                                                  then duller colors...

                                                                  I sure hope that made sense lol,

                                                                  Larry

                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                  wrote:
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Hello, I would like some suggestions about color. I have seen the
                                                                  edges of
                                                                  > layouts painted brown or green. But would blue look OK? I am
                                                                  workinig on a
                                                                  > three layer layout and just not sure what color to stay with. I
                                                                  would like
                                                                  > to hear your thoughts. I have attached some photos with the blue.
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Thanks and take care.
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                  > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                  >
                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8572 From: John Hagen Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                  Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                  Ya know,

                                                                  Larry could be on to something here (pretty cheeky for a newbie).

                                                                  Seriously, with three levels, it may be a good idea to paint the
                                                                  upper two levels as a foreground to the scenery on the layer of which
                                                                  it is fore. Or for, or...? I mean we paint a background to take one
                                                                  eyes beyond the layout so as to visually extend our tiny section of
                                                                  the world, why not have foregrounds to bring our eyes gently into the
                                                                  scene. John Allen broke new ground (OK, its a tad punny) when he had
                                                                  to-the-floor scenery with a walk-in canyon.

                                                                  Good thought Larry.

                                                                  Chuck, yer on yer own for the lower level. Maybe yellow/black safety
                                                                  stripes?

                                                                  John Hagen

                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" <larry_l_doub@...> wrote:
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Just one mans opinion,
                                                                  > I've noticed it;s always green or brown in
                                                                  > most layouts, but I do think I have seen blue.
                                                                  >
                                                                  > My thoughts on this was to "if I'm ever to this point"
                                                                  > painting it like the real earth, layers of color to loosely
                                                                  replicate
                                                                  > the layers of earth if you seen half a hillside removed.
                                                                  >
                                                                  > But my thoughts are, what ever the color may be, I think it should
                                                                  be
                                                                  > a color that is more dull then the layout or what is on the
                                                                  > layout "scenery" to not take any of the focus away from the layout.
                                                                  > If you try to watch yourself when looking at something, more times
                                                                  > then not, your eyes are/might be more ap to focus on brighter
                                                                  colors
                                                                  > then duller colors...
                                                                  >
                                                                  > I sure hope that made sense lol,
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Larry
                                                                  >
                                                                  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@>
                                                                  > wrote:
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > > Hello, I would like some suggestions about color. I have seen
                                                                  the
                                                                  > edges of
                                                                  > > layouts painted brown or green. But would blue look OK? I am
                                                                  > workinig on a
                                                                  > > three layer layout and just not sure what color to stay with. I
                                                                  > would like
                                                                  > > to hear your thoughts. I have attached some photos with the blue.
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > > Thanks and take care.
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                  > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                  > >
                                                                  >
                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8573 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                  Subject: Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)
                                                                  All of the lettering is decals covered with a semi-gloss varnish.  I can see slight defects under the decal film in several locations.  It could be a Main Line kit.
                                                                  Don in VA
                                                                  =================================================

                                                                  Larry wrote:

                                                                  I can't give a guess to who made it as I'm still learning the makers of
                                                                  the eara, but the Oregon Electric wording looks crooked <spelling) to
                                                                  me, the car info lettering looks like factory print.

                                                                  I hope it aint worth a million,
                                                                  I do believe I passed up a couple of these in the
                                                                  collection when I went over it lol,

                                                                  Larry

                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@.. .> wrote:
                                                                  >
                                                                  > There's presently an apparent vintage H0 "cattle car" (stock car)
                                                                  > listed on Ebay, as #280311112352, an Oregon Electric cattle car (side
                                                                  > number #401) that the Seller feels may be an Ulrich product, because
                                                                  of
                                                                  > its similarity to this manufacturer. As far as I know, Ulrich never
                                                                  > made this, and doubt very much it is an Ulrich, but out of
                                                                  curiousity --
                                                                  > does anyone know who could have produced this. While I'm not
                                                                  > interested in bidding on it, it looks like an interesting piece, as
                                                                  it
                                                                  > appears to be factory finished including the lettering, although I
                                                                  > haven't questioned the Seller to ask if it's decaled or not (I will
                                                                  do
                                                                  > so if we can't come up with an answer). I've never seen this
                                                                  roadname
                                                                  > on any kit before. Any guesses? Ray W.
                                                                  >
                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8574 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                  Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                  For the lower level, concrete retaining wall or earth colors to match the edge of table scenery...  Your idea for upper levels sounds reasonable... 
                                                                  Don in VA
                                                                  ================================================================
                                                                  John Hagen wrote:

                                                                  Ya know,

                                                                  Larry could be on to something here (pretty cheeky for a newbie).

                                                                  Seriously, with three levels, it may be a good idea to paint the
                                                                  upper two levels as a foreground to the scenery on the layer of which
                                                                  it is fore. Or for, or...? I mean we paint a background to take one
                                                                  eyes beyond the layout so as to visually extend our tiny section of
                                                                  the world, why not have foregrounds to bring our eyes gently into the
                                                                  scene. John Allen broke new ground (OK, its a tad punny) when he had
                                                                  to-the-floor scenery with a walk-in canyon.

                                                                  Good thought Larry.

                                                                  Chuck, yer on yer own for the lower level. Maybe yellow/black safety
                                                                  stripes?

                                                                  John Hagen

                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Larry" <larry_l_doub@ ...> wrote:
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Just one mans opinion,
                                                                  > I've noticed it;s always green or brown in
                                                                  > most layouts, but I do think I have seen blue.
                                                                  >
                                                                  > My thoughts on this was to "if I'm ever to this point"
                                                                  > painting it like the real earth, layers of color to loosely
                                                                  replicate
                                                                  > the layers of earth if you seen half a hillside removed.
                                                                  >
                                                                  > But my thoughts are, what ever the color may be, I think it should
                                                                  be
                                                                  > a color that is more dull then the layout or what is on the
                                                                  > layout "scenery" to not take any of the focus away from the layout.
                                                                  > If you try to watch yourself when looking at something, more times
                                                                  > then not, your eyes are/might be more ap to focus on brighter
                                                                  colors
                                                                  > then duller colors...
                                                                  >
                                                                  > I sure hope that made sense lol,
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Larry
                                                                  >
                                                                  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@>
                                                                  > wrote:
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > > Hello, I would like some suggestions about color. I have seen
                                                                  the
                                                                  > edges of
                                                                  > > layouts painted brown or green. But would blue look OK? I am
                                                                  > workinig on a
                                                                  > > three layer layout and just not sure what color to stay with. I
                                                                  > would like
                                                                  > > to hear your thoughts. I have attached some photos with the blue.
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > > Thanks and take care.
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                  > > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                  > >
                                                                  >
                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8575 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                  Subject: Re: Utah Scale Models
                                                                  Okay Chuck, I found it. I thought we did something on that one, just
                                                                  couldn't find it. Going by the additional history texting, I may
                                                                  have snail mailed this one to you, which is why I forgot about it.
                                                                  The whole article I wrote was about 3 1/2 pages, including a page and
                                                                  a half of history, but I condensed it, changing a few words here and
                                                                  there to not infringe on any copyrights that "The Reporting Mark" may
                                                                  have on it. Many thanks, Ray W.



                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                  wrote:
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Hi Ray,
                                                                  >
                                                                  > I loaded a file in August. It is just below the Penn Line and
                                                                  above the Red
                                                                  > Ball file when I look at the files section. Please look again and
                                                                  let me
                                                                  > know what you find.
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Take care,
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                  > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  > _____
                                                                  >
                                                                  > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
                                                                  On Behalf
                                                                  > Of erieberk
                                                                  > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:49 AM
                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                  > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Utah Scale Models - was; Steam ID,
                                                                  Brass?
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Hi Chuck, Not related to the previous topic, while while I caught
                                                                  > your ear -- first, I want to thank you for filing all the Red Ball
                                                                  > info I sent you. Next, did I ever send you info on Railmaster? I
                                                                  > received a request on it off list and looked for it in the files
                                                                  but
                                                                  > can't find it. If not, I'll send this one out next for you to do a
                                                                  > spread sheet if we still need it. Many thanks, Ray Wetzel
                                                                  >
                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8576 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                  Subject: Re: Utah Scale Models
                                                                  No, no need to change the title. Most collectors who are familiar
                                                                  with them at all, know of them as Railmaster -- and those who are
                                                                  more into them know them either way. Ray W.



                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                  wrote:
                                                                  >
                                                                  > It is under Railmasters and not Utah Scale Models. Should I change
                                                                  the
                                                                  > title?
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                  > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  > _____
                                                                  >
                                                                  > From: Chuck Higdon [mailto:vze5crrw1@...]
                                                                  > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 9:22 AM
                                                                  > To: 'vintageHO@yahoogroups.com'
                                                                  > Subject: RE:[vintageHO] Re: Utah Scale Models
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Hi Ray,
                                                                  >
                                                                  > I loaded a file in August. It is just below the Penn Line and
                                                                  above the Red
                                                                  > Ball file when I look at the files section. Please look again and
                                                                  let me
                                                                  > know what you find.
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Take care,
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                  > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  > _____
                                                                  >
                                                                  > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
                                                                  On Behalf
                                                                  > Of erieberk
                                                                  > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:49 AM
                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                  > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Utah Scale Models - was; Steam ID,
                                                                  Brass?
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Hi Chuck, Not related to the previous topic, while while I caught
                                                                  > your ear -- first, I want to thank you for filing all the Red Ball
                                                                  > info I sent you. Next, did I ever send you info on Railmaster? I
                                                                  > received a request on it off list and looked for it in the files
                                                                  but
                                                                  > can't find it. If not, I'll send this one out next for you to do a
                                                                  > spread sheet if we still need it. Many thanks, Ray Wetzel
                                                                  >
                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8577 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                  Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                                           I have to totally agree about "false" information, which becomes truth to many as it pertains to Keith Willis and Collectors Consist in RMC and other sources. Years back he was virtually the only person who wrote about vintage HO and it's history. Where he got some of his information I don't know. I wrote him letters about these mistakes and he would write back. He eventually became a member of our now defunct HO Scale Collectors& History- SIG group. I hoped his reports got better. I don't buy the magazine so I don't know.
                                                                      After that a number of good books were published from Greenberg and others that improved that knowledge. I know I don't know everything and no one else does. We all pick up bad information and can carry it like baggage for years as the truth. Hopefully sites like this will improve everyone's knowledge and keep the truth alive.
                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                  Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 11:02 AM
                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Steam ID, Brass?

                                                                  The Kalmbach Model Railroad Cyclopedias (all editions) are really
                                                                  interesting- on multiple levels- and I treasure each and every one.

                                                                  The Collector Corner column in RMC is mentioned by one lister. Over
                                                                  the years I have found too many careless errors (beyond nit-picking) ,
                                                                  and lack of basic fact-checking in that column to be reliable.
                                                                  Unfortunately, for many, the column will continue to be a definitive
                                                                  source of information inasmuch as almost nothing else has been
                                                                  published on many of the subjects.

                                                                  Denny

                                                                  Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                  Sacramento
                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8578 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                  Subject: Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                  Larry,

                                                                  It does make sense, once more scenery is on that section, a color other then my sky blue would be better.  I don’t want trees just floating in the sky.  Thanks for the input.

                                                                   

                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                   

                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Larry
                                                                  Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 11:16 AM
                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                  Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                   

                                                                  Just one mans opinion,
                                                                  I've noticed it;s always green or brown in
                                                                  most layouts, but I do think I have seen blue.

                                                                  My thoughts on this was to "if I'm ever to this point"
                                                                  painting it like the real earth, layers of color to loosely replicate
                                                                  the layers of earth if you seen half a hillside removed.

                                                                  But my thoughts are, what ever the color may be, I think it should be
                                                                  a color that is more dull then the layout or what is on the
                                                                  layout "scenery" to not take any of the focus away from the layout.
                                                                  If you try to watch yourself when looking at something, more times
                                                                  then not, your eyes are/might be more ap to focus on brighter colors
                                                                  then duller colors...

                                                                  I sure hope that made sense lol,

                                                                  Larry
                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8579 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                  Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                  John,

                                                                  Yes, foreground colors would work.  A light tan/sand color for that Florida sand/dirt would not be too bright or as bright to the blue as a dark brown or darn green.  That yellow/black will work on the first level.  Thanks.

                                                                   

                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                   

                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of John Hagen
                                                                  Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 11:36 AM
                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                  Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                   

                                                                  Ya know,

                                                                  Larry could be on to something here (pretty cheeky for a newbie).

                                                                  Seriously, with three levels, it may be a good idea to paint the
                                                                  upper two levels as a foreground to the scenery on the layer of which
                                                                  it is fore. Or for, or...? I mean we paint a background to take one
                                                                  eyes beyond the layout so as to visually extend our tiny section of
                                                                  the world, why not have foregrounds to bring our eyes gently into the
                                                                  scene. John Allen broke new ground (OK, its a tad punny) when he had
                                                                  to-the-floor scenery with a walk-in canyon.

                                                                  Good thought Larry.

                                                                  Chuck, yer on yer own for the lower level. Maybe yellow/black safety
                                                                  stripes?

                                                                  John Hagen

                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Larry" <larry_l_doub@ ...> wrote:

                                                                  >
                                                                  > Just one mans opinion,
                                                                  > I've noticed it;s always green or brown in
                                                                  > most layouts, but I do think I have seen blue.
                                                                  >
                                                                  > My thoughts on this was to "if I'm ever to this point"
                                                                  > painting it like the real earth, layers of color to loosely
                                                                  replicate
                                                                  > the layers of earth if you seen half a hillside removed.
                                                                  >
                                                                  > But my thoughts are, what ever the color may be, I think it should
                                                                  be
                                                                  > a color that is more dull then the layout or what is on the
                                                                  > layout "scenery" to not take any of the focus away from the
                                                                  layout.
                                                                  > If you try to watch yourself when looking at something, more times
                                                                  > then not, your eyes are/might be more ap to focus on brighter
                                                                  colors
                                                                  > then duller colors...
                                                                  >
                                                                  > I sure hope that made sense lol,
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Larry
                                                                  >
                                                                  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
                                                                  "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@>
                                                                  > wrote:
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > > Hello, I would like some suggestions about color. I have seen
                                                                  the
                                                                  > edges of
                                                                  > > layouts painted brown or green. But would blue look OK? I am
                                                                  > workinig on a
                                                                  > > three layer layout and just not sure what color to stay with. I
                                                                  > would like
                                                                  > > to hear your thoughts. I have attached some photos with the blue.
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > > Thanks and take care.
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                  > > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                  > >
                                                                  >
                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8580 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                  Subject: Re: Steam ID, Brass?
                                                                  Hi Jim,
                                                                   
                                                                  I don't know if I got that exactly from CC or not, I still get RMC, however, I do believe that just like O gauge, HO was also invented in Europe, motors of course were too big, (aka, shades of years later when the technology just wasn't there for Athearn to make scale width hoods!), obviously that changed, and probably by the late 30's, whether it was introduced in the US or not before 1930 I have no idea........;o)
                                                                   
                                                                  Gary W

                                                                   
                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                  From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                  Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 12:17:15 PM
                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Steam ID, Brass?

                                                                           I have to totally agree about "false" information, which becomes truth to many as it pertains to Keith Willis and Collectors Consist in RMC and other sources. Years back he was virtually the only person who wrote about vintage HO and it's history. Where he got some of his information I don't know. I wrote him letters about these mistakes and he would write back. He eventually became a member of our now defunct HO Scale Collectors& History- SIG group. I hoped his reports got better. I don't buy the magazine so I don't know.
                                                                      After that a number of good books were published from Greenberg and others that improved that knowledge. I know I don't know everything and no one else does. We all pick up bad information and can carry it like baggage for years as the truth. Hopefully sites like this will improve everyone's knowledge and keep the truth alive.
                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                  Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 11:02 AM
                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Steam ID, Brass?

                                                                  The Kalmbach Model Railroad Cyclopedias (all editions) are really
                                                                  interesting- on multiple levels- and I treasure each and every one.

                                                                  The Collector Corner column in RMC is mentioned by one lister. Over
                                                                  the years I have found too many careless errors (beyond nit-picking) ,
                                                                  and lack of basic fact-checking in that column to be reliable.
                                                                  Unfortunately, for many, the column will continue to be a definitive
                                                                  source of information inasmuch as almost nothing else has been
                                                                  published on many of the subjects.

                                                                  Denny

                                                                  Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                  Sacramento
                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8581 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                  Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Utah Scale Models

                                                                  Alright, great.

                                                                   

                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                   

                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                  Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 12:10 PM
                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                  Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Utah Scale Models

                                                                   

                                                                  No, no need to change the title. Most collectors who are familiar
                                                                  with them at all, know of them as Railmaster -- and those who are
                                                                  more into them know them either way. Ray W.

                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..>
                                                                  wrote:

                                                                  >
                                                                  > It is under Railmasters and not Utah Scale Models. Should I change
                                                                  the
                                                                  > title?
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                  > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                  >

                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8582 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                  Subject: Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)
                                                                  Larry, Thanks for looking anyway. Even if we can't nail all these
                                                                  odd-balls down all the time, at least they can be fun to try to
                                                                  figure out, and there's always a chance of coming up with a small
                                                                  piece that was missing in the puzzle. I didn't pick up on the
                                                                  wording being crooked, but maybe you're right. I just went back up
                                                                  there and wrote a question as to whether it's been decalled so maybe
                                                                  that will at least tell us something.

                                                                  If it's Ulrich, it has to be nicely repainted and then decalled as
                                                                  Ulrich didn't have undec cars to be decalled by the modeler; all
                                                                  their cars were factory printed. No, I don't think it's worth a
                                                                  bundle. I don't really think that Road was ever factory produced by
                                                                  any manufacturer, but there's always that slim chance that one of
                                                                  these odd balls slipped through the cracks -- it's just a curiosity.
                                                                  I will admit, I had to look myself at wood and metal cars after
                                                                  seeing your post, and I saw a few nice rarities up there. Frank Brua
                                                                  (Park Varieties) has a few up there now and always has some gems
                                                                  every month and a half or so. Nothing I needed, but it always pays
                                                                  to look. Ray Wetzel



                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" <larry_l_doub@...> wrote:
                                                                  >
                                                                  > I can't give a guess to who made it as I'm still learning the
                                                                  makers of
                                                                  > the eara, but the Oregon Electric wording looks crooked <spelling)
                                                                  to
                                                                  > me, the car info lettering looks like factory print.
                                                                  >
                                                                  > I hope it aint worth a million,
                                                                  > I do believe I passed up a couple of these in the
                                                                  > collection when I went over it lol,
                                                                  >
                                                                  > Larry
                                                                  >
                                                                  >
                                                                  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > > There's presently an apparent vintage H0 "cattle car" (stock car)
                                                                  > > listed on Ebay, as #280311112352, an Oregon Electric cattle car
                                                                  (side
                                                                  > > number #401) that the Seller feels may be an Ulrich product,
                                                                  because
                                                                  > of
                                                                  > > its similarity to this manufacturer. As far as I know, Ulrich
                                                                  never
                                                                  > > made this, and doubt very much it is an Ulrich, but out of
                                                                  > curiousity --
                                                                  > > does anyone know who could have produced this. While I'm not
                                                                  > > interested in bidding on it, it looks like an interesting piece,
                                                                  as
                                                                  > it
                                                                  > > appears to be factory finished including the lettering, although
                                                                  I
                                                                  > > haven't questioned the Seller to ask if it's decaled or not (I
                                                                  will
                                                                  > do
                                                                  > > so if we can't come up with an answer). I've never seen this
                                                                  > roadname
                                                                  > > on any kit before. Any guesses? Ray W.
                                                                  > >
                                                                  >
                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8583 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                  Subject: Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)
                                                                  Okay Don, I didn't catch those decal defects that you saw. My
                                                                  monitor is not the greatest in showing me such minor details. I did
                                                                  send out a question to this Seller, so we should soon know for sure.
                                                                  If that's the case, it's probably a re-furbished (and re-lettered)
                                                                  Ulrich, although with brass parts (as described), it may be a
                                                                  kitbash. The semi-gloss varnish finish did look too good for a
                                                                  wooden car -- which shouldn't have any gloss to its appearance.
                                                                  Can't be a Main Line, as all their cattle cars are 36' and this is
                                                                  advertised as 40'. Doesn't seem to leave much else. I know Ambroid
                                                                  made some stock cars, but I believe theirs were 36' also. I'll have
                                                                  to make a quick check on that, though. Many thanks, Ray W.




                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...>
                                                                  wrote:
                                                                  >
                                                                  > /All of the lettering is decals covered with a semi-gloss varnish.
                                                                  I
                                                                  > can see slight defects under the decal film in several locations.
                                                                  It
                                                                  > could be a Main Line kit.
                                                                  > Don in VA
                                                                  > =================================================
                                                                  > /
                                                                  > Larry wrote:
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > > I can't give a guess to who made it as I'm still learning the
                                                                  makers of
                                                                  > > the eara, but the Oregon Electric wording looks crooked
                                                                  <spelling) to
                                                                  > > me, the car info lettering looks like factory print.
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > > I hope it aint worth a million,
                                                                  > > I do believe I passed up a couple of these in the
                                                                  > > collection when I went over it lol,
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > > Larry
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%
                                                                  40yahoogroups.com>,
                                                                  > > "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                  > > >
                                                                  > > > There's presently an apparent vintage H0 "cattle car" (stock
                                                                  car)
                                                                  > > > listed on Ebay, as #280311112352, an Oregon Electric cattle car
                                                                  (side
                                                                  > > > number #401) that the Seller feels may be an Ulrich product,
                                                                  because
                                                                  > > of
                                                                  > > > its similarity to this manufacturer. As far as I know, Ulrich
                                                                  never
                                                                  > > > made this, and doubt very much it is an Ulrich, but out of
                                                                  > > curiousity --
                                                                  > > > does anyone know who could have produced this. While I'm not
                                                                  > > > interested in bidding on it, it looks like an interesting
                                                                  piece, as
                                                                  > > it
                                                                  > > > appears to be factory finished including the lettering,
                                                                  although I
                                                                  > > > haven't questioned the Seller to ask if it's decaled or not (I
                                                                  will
                                                                  > > do
                                                                  > > > so if we can't come up with an answer). I've never seen this
                                                                  > > roadname
                                                                  > > > on any kit before. Any guesses? Ray W.
                                                                  > > >
                                                                  > >
                                                                  > >
                                                                  >
                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8584 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                  Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                    I'm no expert at color, and a good friend who could really be a help and knew commercial art and model railroading is no longer around to help me.
                                                                     
                                                                    However, the brown and green I usually see look rather ugly, even depressing, to me.  And I have even seen black which might even be preferable - but requires pristine perfect surfaces to look good.  I'm sure these are attempts to have something believed to be neutral or be like a foundation or mother earth or something.  And I guess they work fairly well at that.  But I'm not sure that is the best way to set off a layout.  And a layout, especially around the room and even more so if multideck, can also be viewed as a glorified wall treatment.  And multideck means a lot of square feet of fascia around eye level.
                                                                     
                                                                    I suggest that instead of a color trying to represent any geological cross section as if some alien had sliced through the earth and miniaturized a chunk of it and nailed it to your walls, that a color that "framed" the layout surface rather than pretending to be part of the scenery.  But not one that dominated or drew your eye to it like a bullseye.  I think your blue color may be one of those too dominant colors.
                                                                     
                                                                    Perhaps something more neutral, not too oppressively dark or blindingly light, and with a hint of color but not enough to distract.  This could be a light grey color with a very light touch of both green and blue mixed in which would be a little sympathetic to all the green vegetation and blue sky on most railroads.  Not much color.  Just enough to give it a little interest since there will actually be quite a lot of surface area.  But not so much to start dominating (as that blue does) because of the large surface area.  And it wouldn't look a little less bland than some naval grey.  (For the purists, I was in the Navy and know the colors are really "deck grey" and "haze grey".)
                                                                     
                                                                    Also, I assume there will be a lot of sky which will be a lot of bluish-greyish, and the the color I described probably won't be fighting it.  The most intense colors would be those on the layout surface themselves.  And that's as it should be, I think.  The lighter fascia approach would probably give a lighter look to the layout components and the room in general.  And might make the room look larger.
                                                                     
                                                                    Depending on floor coloring or furniture (if any) in the room, some other color highlighting to the grey might make sense such as a hint of terra cotta or yellow.
                                                                     
                                                                    The idea is take the same approach often used when matting a painting or photo.  It seems to me that mattes usually pick up something of the color of the subject, or perhaps involve a complimentary color, but not so much so as to make the matte the subject matter.  And it looks like you have some pretty tall fascia so you have a lot of area to visually "drop into the background".
                                                                     
                                                                    There may also be a difference to how it looks to someone who is going to see the layout for only an hour and will probably like it no matter what color the fascia.  And then there is the case where you have to look at it and live with it day after month after year.  It should be pleasing to you no matter what anyone else thinks.  It's pretty subjective.
                                                                     
                                                                    Some other ideas:  If you want crisper lines of demarcation, consider perhaps a charcoal grey color.  It would result in stark horizontal bars throughout the room, but color neutral ones.  I think this would give it a more modern look.
                                                                     
                                                                    You could also use different colors for different levels or sections, but I this could easily make things look to "busy".  On the other hand, if done subtly, it could help visually seperate the levels so they don't blur together so much.
                                                                     
                                                                    I did some crude (very crude) sketches in Microsoft Word and made some jpegs from them with different color fascias.  I find doing something like this as helpful in visualizing and experimenting.  It's quick and easy and doesn't always show me what works, but can really show what doesn't work.  They are:
                                                                     
                                                                    Fascia blue (something like your sample)
                                                                    Fascia brown (sort of a traditional dark brown)
                                                                    Fascia green (for of a tradition dark green)
                                                                    Fascia grey tint (the grey with hints of green and blue - hard to notice on a screen - better on large surface)
                                                                    Fascia charcoal
                                                                    Fascia light terracotta (just an example of something non-typical)
                                                                    Fascia light teal (another example of something non-typical)
                                                                    Fascia dirty lavender (another example of something non-typical - not a color typically on layout, probably complimentary, then)
                                                                    Fascia multiple (three different earth tones)
                                                                     
                                                                    Finally, you could use some other surface other than paint.  I have always felt that if the fascia was not a good surface, the imperfections showing through the paint distracted terribly from the fine modeling above it.  Also, many use paint that is so glossy that imperfections are magnified.  Instead, a fabric could be glued on like a fine burlap or something.
                                                                     
                                                                    You sometimes see that fake wood paneling used that was in such vogue in 1050's rec rooms I think.  I never cared for that because the "grooves" distracted and didn't make sense.  However, some other type of veneer could be used if it had uniform fine grain and stained to something neutral.  There are even grey stains.
                                                                     
                                                                    I'll bet there are plenty of other ideas out there.
                                                                     
                                                                    But for paint, you might go to the paint store and grab a whole bunch of their samples and not necessarily in the colors everyone else has usually used.  And you could drive around and look at a lot of house colors and try to imagine them as your fascia.  And if you can, play around with something on the screen like I did.  The pixels give off less fumes.
                                                                     
                                                                    Chuck Kinzer
                                                                     
                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                    From: Larry
                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:15 AM
                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                    Just one mans opinion,
                                                                    I've noticed it;s always green or brown in
                                                                    most layouts, but I do think I have seen blue.

                                                                    My thoughts on this was to "if I'm ever to this point"
                                                                    painting it like the real earth, layers of color to loosely replicate
                                                                    the layers of earth if you seen half a hillside removed.

                                                                    But my thoughts are, what ever the color may be, I think it should be
                                                                    a color that is more dull then the layout or what is on the
                                                                    layout "scenery" to not take any of the focus away from the layout.
                                                                    If you try to watch yourself when looking at something, more times
                                                                    then not, your eyes are/might be more ap to focus on brighter colors
                                                                    then duller colors...

                                                                    I sure hope that made sense lol,

                                                                    Larry

                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..>
                                                                    wrote:
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Hello, I would like some suggestions about color. I have seen the
                                                                    edges of
                                                                    > layouts painted brown or green. But would blue look OK? I am
                                                                    workinig on a
                                                                    > three layer layout and just not sure what color to stay with. I
                                                                    would like
                                                                    > to hear your thoughts. I have attached some photos with the blue.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Thanks and take care.
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                    > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                    >
                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8585 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                    Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                    Hi Chuck, I see what you're trying to accomplish here in trying to
                                                                    create as much believability as possible while eliminiating what would
                                                                    look totally unreal. I've read some replies, but have come to my own
                                                                    conclusions already, before having seen these other remarks -- and
                                                                    while some suggestions are good, I'll still stick by my first
                                                                    thoughts.

                                                                    I don't believe you could get away with leaving any of the edging blue
                                                                    (at least not TOTALLY blue), as it would look as though those scenes
                                                                    would just be floating in air -- if the edging matched the sky. Mind
                                                                    you, I've never done a multi-level, but am just going by what would be
                                                                    most esthetically pleasing to me. For what its worth (and I know to
                                                                    expect backlash here), I would first off paint the complete edge of the
                                                                    first (bottom) tier the same ground color as that on top of the layout
                                                                    right adjacent to the edge, and follow through with it as continuity on
                                                                    that level.

                                                                    Then, for the second and third levels, I would keep the sky blue color
                                                                    as the edging for those levels (matching the rest of the sky color),
                                                                    which would create the appearance of additional space between the
                                                                    levels, even though you know that space is really more limited. To
                                                                    paint those edges to match the ground colors in any way would be to
                                                                    visually close up the spacing between levels. BUT ---- for these
                                                                    second and third level edges, I would either paint a 3/4" to 1" ground
                                                                    color edge (using masking tape) dropping from off their tables to
                                                                    DEFINE these level, or (preferably) I would install a 3/4" (again,
                                                                    maybe 1" - max) molding along those edges to DEFINE them, the same as
                                                                    the ground color you're using on those tables. This could additionally
                                                                    prevent roll-offs in minor derailments. I would put a matching molding
                                                                    on the bottom level as well, but that would just blend in as the same
                                                                    color already being used on that edge.

                                                                    I know you don't want any levels to be obvious, as being a level (and
                                                                    molding may add to making these levels more obvious), but I don't see
                                                                    any other way of getting around the look of having those upper levels
                                                                    otherwise appearing as if they're suspended in mid air -- which I think
                                                                    would look much worse. At least this should show these levels for what
                                                                    they are -- distinct and separate from each other, yet looking like the
                                                                    terra-firma they're suppose to represent, and at the same time, not
                                                                    looking as crowding each other from one level to the next. Just my
                                                                    opinion, although that's exactly what I would do if it were in my
                                                                    basement. Any comments are welcome, maybe I can refine this. Ray W.



                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Hello, I would like some suggestions about color. I have seen the
                                                                    edges of
                                                                    > layouts painted brown or green. But would blue look OK? I am
                                                                    workinig on a
                                                                    > three layer layout and just not sure what color to stay with. I
                                                                    would like
                                                                    > to hear your thoughts. I have attached some photos with the blue.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Thanks and take care.
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                    > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                    >
                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8586 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                    Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                    Chuck, I like some of your ideas, but of course this has to please
                                                                    Chuck H. I hadn't seen your suggestions until after I was done
                                                                    typing (I see we finished only 3 minutes apart). My idea of the
                                                                    mainly blue on the upper two levels' edges was to blend in with the
                                                                    rest of the sky color, not making those edges too obtrusive. But
                                                                    while I was going along with Chuck H's idea for a blue sky color, I
                                                                    would definitely go along with lightening that blue color up to make
                                                                    it look more airy and open (ALL of that blue color, even on the
                                                                    walls). A defining 3/4" molding along the top of the edge should set
                                                                    it off just right, which would not be dominating nor distracting yet
                                                                    allow the sky-blue to blend into the background. Ray



                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I'm no expert at color, and a good friend who could really be a
                                                                    help and knew commercial art and model railroading is no longer
                                                                    around to help me.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > However, the brown and green I usually see look rather ugly, even
                                                                    depressing, to me. And I have even seen black which might even be
                                                                    preferable - but requires pristine perfect surfaces to look good.
                                                                    I'm sure these are attempts to have something believed to be neutral
                                                                    or be like a foundation or mother earth or something. And I guess
                                                                    they work fairly well at that. But I'm not sure that is the best way
                                                                    to set off a layout. And a layout, especially around the room and
                                                                    even more so if multideck, can also be viewed as a glorified wall
                                                                    treatment. And multideck means a lot of square feet of fascia around
                                                                    eye level.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I suggest that instead of a color trying to represent any
                                                                    geological cross section as if some alien had sliced through the
                                                                    earth and miniaturized a chunk of it and nailed it to your walls,
                                                                    that a color that "framed" the layout surface rather than pretending
                                                                    to be part of the scenery. But not one that dominated or drew your
                                                                    eye to it like a bullseye. I think your blue color may be one of
                                                                    those too dominant colors.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Perhaps something more neutral, not too oppressively dark or
                                                                    blindingly light, and with a hint of color but not enough to
                                                                    distract. This could be a light grey color with a very light touch
                                                                    of both green and blue mixed in which would be a little sympathetic
                                                                    to all the green vegetation and blue sky on most railroads. Not much
                                                                    color. Just enough to give it a little interest since there will
                                                                    actually be quite a lot of surface area. But not so much to start
                                                                    dominating (as that blue does) because of the large surface area.
                                                                    And it wouldn't look a little less bland than some naval grey. (For
                                                                    the purists, I was in the Navy and know the colors are really "deck
                                                                    grey" and "haze grey".)
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Also, I assume there will be a lot of sky which will be a lot of
                                                                    bluish-greyish, and the the color I described probably won't be
                                                                    fighting it. The most intense colors would be those on the layout
                                                                    surface themselves. And that's as it should be, I think. The
                                                                    lighter fascia approach would probably give a lighter look to the
                                                                    layout components and the room in general. And might make the room
                                                                    look larger.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Depending on floor coloring or furniture (if any) in the room, some
                                                                    other color highlighting to the grey might make sense such as a hint
                                                                    of terra cotta or yellow.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > The idea is take the same approach often used when matting a
                                                                    painting or photo. It seems to me that mattes usually pick up
                                                                    something of the color of the subject, or perhaps involve a
                                                                    complimentary color, but not so much so as to make the matte the
                                                                    subject matter. And it looks like you have some pretty tall fascia
                                                                    so you have a lot of area to visually "drop into the background".
                                                                    >
                                                                    > There may also be a difference to how it looks to someone who is
                                                                    going to see the layout for only an hour and will probably like it no
                                                                    matter what color the fascia. And then there is the case where you
                                                                    have to look at it and live with it day after month after year. It
                                                                    should be pleasing to you no matter what anyone else thinks. It's
                                                                    pretty subjective.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Some other ideas: If you want crisper lines of demarcation,
                                                                    consider perhaps a charcoal grey color. It would result in stark
                                                                    horizontal bars throughout the room, but color neutral ones. I think
                                                                    this would give it a more modern look.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > You could also use different colors for different levels or
                                                                    sections, but I this could easily make things look to "busy". On the
                                                                    other hand, if done subtly, it could help visually seperate the
                                                                    levels so they don't blur together so much.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I did some crude (very crude) sketches in Microsoft Word and made
                                                                    some jpegs from them with different color fascias. I find doing
                                                                    something like this as helpful in visualizing and experimenting.
                                                                    It's quick and easy and doesn't always show me what works, but can
                                                                    really show what doesn't work. They are:
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Fascia blue (something like your sample)
                                                                    > Fascia brown (sort of a traditional dark brown)
                                                                    > Fascia green (for of a tradition dark green)
                                                                    > Fascia grey tint (the grey with hints of green and blue - hard to
                                                                    notice on a screen - better on large surface)
                                                                    > Fascia charcoal
                                                                    > Fascia light terracotta (just an example of something non-typical)
                                                                    > Fascia light teal (another example of something non-typical)
                                                                    > Fascia dirty lavender (another example of something non-typical -
                                                                    not a color typically on layout, probably complimentary, then)
                                                                    > Fascia multiple (three different earth tones)
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Finally, you could use some other surface other than paint. I have
                                                                    always felt that if the fascia was not a good surface, the
                                                                    imperfections showing through the paint distracted terribly from the
                                                                    fine modeling above it. Also, many use paint that is so glossy that
                                                                    imperfections are magnified. Instead, a fabric could be glued on
                                                                    like a fine burlap or something.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > You sometimes see that fake wood paneling used that was in such
                                                                    vogue in 1050's rec rooms I think. I never cared for that because
                                                                    the "grooves" distracted and didn't make sense. However, some other
                                                                    type of veneer could be used if it had uniform fine grain and stained
                                                                    to something neutral. There are even grey stains.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I'll bet there are plenty of other ideas out there.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > But for paint, you might go to the paint store and grab a whole
                                                                    bunch of their samples and not necessarily in the colors everyone
                                                                    else has usually used. And you could drive around and look at a lot
                                                                    of house colors and try to imagine them as your fascia. And if you
                                                                    can, play around with something on the screen like I did. The pixels
                                                                    give off less fumes.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Chuck Kinzer
                                                                    >
                                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                    > From: Larry
                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                    > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:15 AM
                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Just one mans opinion,
                                                                    > I've noticed it;s always green or brown in
                                                                    > most layouts, but I do think I have seen blue.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > My thoughts on this was to "if I'm ever to this point"
                                                                    > painting it like the real earth, layers of color to loosely
                                                                    replicate
                                                                    > the layers of earth if you seen half a hillside removed.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > But my thoughts are, what ever the color may be, I think it
                                                                    should be
                                                                    > a color that is more dull then the layout or what is on the
                                                                    > layout "scenery" to not take any of the focus away from the
                                                                    layout.
                                                                    > If you try to watch yourself when looking at something, more
                                                                    times
                                                                    > then not, your eyes are/might be more ap to focus on brighter
                                                                    colors
                                                                    > then duller colors...
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I sure hope that made sense lol,
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Larry
                                                                    >
                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@>
                                                                    > wrote:
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > Hello, I would like some suggestions about color. I have seen
                                                                    the
                                                                    > edges of
                                                                    > > layouts painted brown or green. But would blue look OK? I am
                                                                    > workinig on a
                                                                    > > three layer layout and just not sure what color to stay with. I
                                                                    > would like
                                                                    > > to hear your thoughts. I have attached some photos with the
                                                                    blue.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > Thanks and take care.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                    > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                    > >
                                                                    >
                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8587 From: Bill Wright Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                    Subject: Re: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Utah Scale Models
                                                                    This stock car does not match the two Mainline stockcars I have or the
                                                                    Ulrich stock car I have. The two Mainline cars have fishbelly
                                                                    underframes. These are short cars, scaling out at 37 feet long. The
                                                                    stirrup steps are different.

                                                                    The Ulrich car has different side bracing. The side bracing is a metal
                                                                    casting and the stirrup steps are cast with the sides.
                                                                    It does look similar to an Ambroid kit I built 40+ years ago. Side
                                                                    bracing appears to be the same. Both my car and the eBay car are double
                                                                    deck cars with the wide slat running lengthwise along the side of the
                                                                    car where the second deck is. I would call the eBay car a custom
                                                                    lettered Ambroid.

                                                                    Bill Wright
                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8588 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                    Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                    I think there is no shortage of opinions on this.  So a few more won't kill anybody...
                                                                     
                                                                    It may not be worth much struggle to try and hide the fact that upper tiers are, well, upper tiers floating in the sky or something.
                                                                     
                                                                    I'm reminded by something that amused Jason Alexander about some of the more recent musical productions he was seeing.  He said that some mightily try to write musicals so plot points always exist to lead directly to a song instead of songs out of the blue for no apparent reason.  He said that the audience knows they are going to a musical and won't be bothered at all if a song simply appears.
                                                                     
                                                                    I think some of the same is true for a model railroad.  At the micro level of observation you can have perhaps suspend a lot reaility (except the stuff is rather small).  But step back a foot or two and, well, its a model railroad existing in the macro world and everybody knows it.
                                                                     
                                                                    So I would favor what enhances the overall experience and "feel" of the room.  Perhaps more a nod to architecture than model railroading?  For example, imagine if you were not going to have a layout but didn't want just blank walls and wanted a series of horizonatl bands along the wall.  For a formal dining room, you might have subtle shades of the same color and for a kid's room bold stripes with perhaps horizontal neon accent lines.  For a rec room, perhaps some other bit of creativity in between the extremes.
                                                                     
                                                                    Also, I don't think it is written that valences need to be vertical (although that is probably the easiest way to build them).  They could probably be angled in a bit at the bottom, 10, 20 30 degrees) so they weren't so oppressive to the level underneath and make things a little more open (given technical restraints for lighting and such).  And they don't have to be flat surfaces.  They could be rounded, or stepped for that matter.
                                                                     
                                                                    Chuck K.
                                                                     
                                                                     
                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                    From: erieberk
                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 11:12 AM
                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                    Chuck, I like some of your ideas, but of course this has to please
                                                                    Chuck H. I hadn't seen your suggestions until after I was done
                                                                    typing (I see we finished only 3 minutes apart). My idea of the
                                                                    mainly blue on the upper two levels' edges was to blend in with the
                                                                    rest of the sky color, not making those edges too obtrusive. But
                                                                    while I was going along with Chuck H's idea for a blue sky color, I
                                                                    would definitely go along with lightening that blue color up to make
                                                                    it look more airy and open (ALL of that blue color, even on the
                                                                    walls). A defining 3/4" molding along the top of the edge should set
                                                                    it off just right, which would not be dominating nor distracting yet
                                                                    allow the sky-blue to blend into the background. Ray

                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, <ckinzer@... > wrote:
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I'm no expert at color, and a good friend who could really be a
                                                                    help and knew commercial art and model railroading is no longer
                                                                    around to help me.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > However, the brown and green I usually see look rather ugly, even
                                                                    depressing, to me. And I have even seen black which might even be
                                                                    preferable - but requires pristine perfect surfaces to look good.
                                                                    I'm sure these are attempts to have something believed to be neutral
                                                                    or be like a foundation or mother earth or something. And I guess
                                                                    they work fairly well at that. But I'm not sure that is the best way
                                                                    to set off a layout. And a layout, especially around the room and
                                                                    even more so if multideck, can also be viewed as a glorified wall
                                                                    treatment. And multideck means a lot of square feet of fascia around
                                                                    eye level.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I suggest that instead of a color trying to represent any
                                                                    geological cross section as if some alien had sliced through the
                                                                    earth and miniaturized a chunk of it and nailed it to your walls,
                                                                    that a color that "framed" the layout surface rather than pretending
                                                                    to be part of the scenery. But not one that dominated or drew your
                                                                    eye to it like a bullseye. I think your blue color may be one of
                                                                    those too dominant colors.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Perhaps something more neutral, not too oppressively dark or
                                                                    blindingly light, and with a hint of color but not enough to
                                                                    distract. This could be a light grey color with a very light touch
                                                                    of both green and blue mixed in which would be a little sympathetic
                                                                    to all the green vegetation and blue sky on most railroads. Not much
                                                                    color. Just enough to give it a little interest since there will
                                                                    actually be quite a lot of surface area. But not so much to start
                                                                    dominating (as that blue does) because of the large surface area.
                                                                    And it wouldn't look a little less bland than some naval grey. (For
                                                                    the purists, I was in the Navy and know the colors are really "deck
                                                                    grey" and "haze grey".)
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Also, I assume there will be a lot of sky which will be a lot of
                                                                    bluish-greyish, and the the color I described probably won't be
                                                                    fighting it. The most intense colors would be those on the layout
                                                                    surface themselves. And that's as it should be, I think. The
                                                                    lighter fascia approach would probably give a lighter look to the
                                                                    layout components and the room in general. And might make the room
                                                                    look larger.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Depending on floor coloring or furniture (if any) in the room, some
                                                                    other color highlighting to the grey might make sense such as a hint
                                                                    of terra cotta or yellow.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > The idea is take the same approach often used when matting a
                                                                    painting or photo. It seems to me that mattes usually pick up
                                                                    something of the color of the subject, or perhaps involve a
                                                                    complimentary color, but not so much so as to make the matte the
                                                                    subject matter. And it looks like you have some pretty tall fascia
                                                                    so you have a lot of area to visually "drop into the background".
                                                                    >
                                                                    > There may also be a difference to how it looks to someone who is
                                                                    going to see the layout for only an hour and will probably like it no
                                                                    matter what color the fascia. And then there is the case where you
                                                                    have to look at it and live with it day after month after year. It
                                                                    should be pleasing to you no matter what anyone else thinks. It's
                                                                    pretty subjective.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Some other ideas: If you want crisper lines of demarcation,
                                                                    consider perhaps a charcoal grey color. It would result in stark
                                                                    horizontal bars throughout the room, but color neutral ones. I think
                                                                    this would give it a more modern look.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > You could also use different colors for different levels or
                                                                    sections, but I this could easily make things look to "busy". On the
                                                                    other hand, if done subtly, it could help visually seperate the
                                                                    levels so they don't blur together so much.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I did some crude (very crude) sketches in Microsoft Word and made
                                                                    some jpegs from them with different color fascias. I find doing
                                                                    something like this as helpful in visualizing and experimenting.
                                                                    It's quick and easy and doesn't always show me what works, but can
                                                                    really show what doesn't work. They are:
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Fascia blue (something like your sample)
                                                                    > Fascia brown (sort of a traditional dark brown)
                                                                    > Fascia green (for of a tradition dark green)
                                                                    > Fascia grey tint (the grey with hints of green and blue - hard to
                                                                    notice on a screen - better on large surface)
                                                                    > Fascia charcoal
                                                                    > Fascia light terracotta (just an example of something non-typical)
                                                                    > Fascia light teal (another example of something non-typical)
                                                                    > Fascia dirty lavender (another example of something non-typical -
                                                                    not a color typically on layout, probably complimentary, then)
                                                                    > Fascia multiple (three different earth tones)
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Finally, you could use some other surface other than paint. I have
                                                                    always felt that if the fascia was not a good surface, the
                                                                    imperfections showing through the paint distracted terribly from the
                                                                    fine modeling above it. Also, many use paint that is so glossy that
                                                                    imperfections are magnified. Instead, a fabric could be glued on
                                                                    like a fine burlap or something.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > You sometimes see that fake wood paneling used that was in such
                                                                    vogue in 1050's rec rooms I think. I never cared for that because
                                                                    the "grooves" distracted and didn't make sense. However, some other
                                                                    type of veneer could be used if it had uniform fine grain and stained
                                                                    to something neutral. There are even grey stains.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I'll bet there are plenty of other ideas out there.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > But for paint, you might go to the paint store and grab a whole
                                                                    bunch of their samples and not necessarily in the colors everyone
                                                                    else has usually used. And you could drive around and look at a lot
                                                                    of house colors and try to imagine them as your fascia. And if you
                                                                    can, play around with something on the screen like I did. The pixels
                                                                    give off less fumes.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Chuck Kinzer
                                                                    >
                                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                    > From: Larry
                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                    > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:15 AM
                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Just one mans opinion,
                                                                    > I've noticed it;s always green or brown in
                                                                    > most layouts, but I do think I have seen blue.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > My thoughts on this was to "if I'm ever to this point"
                                                                    > painting it like the real earth, layers of color to loosely
                                                                    replicate
                                                                    > the layers of earth if you seen half a hillside removed.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > But my thoughts are, what ever the color may be, I think it
                                                                    should be
                                                                    > a color that is more dull then the layout or what is on the
                                                                    > layout "scenery" to not take any of the focus away from the
                                                                    layout.
                                                                    > If you try to watch yourself when looking at something, more
                                                                    times
                                                                    > then not, your eyes are/might be more ap to focus on brighter
                                                                    colors
                                                                    > then duller colors...
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I sure hope that made sense lol,
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Larry
                                                                    >
                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@>
                                                                    > wrote:
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > Hello, I would like some suggestions about color. I have seen
                                                                    the
                                                                    > edges of
                                                                    > > layouts painted brown or green. But would blue look OK? I am
                                                                    > workinig on a
                                                                    > > three layer layout and just not sure what color to stay with. I
                                                                    > would like
                                                                    > > to hear your thoughts. I have attached some photos with the
                                                                    blue.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > Thanks and take care.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                    > > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                    > >
                                                                    >
                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8589 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                    Subject: Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)
                                                                    How about the truss bracing?  die cast Zamak? if so--Ulrich.  IF not--??
                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:35 AM
                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)

                                                                    All of the lettering is decals covered with a semi-gloss varnish.  I can see slight defects under the decal film in several locations.  It could be a Main Line kit.
                                                                    Don in VA
                                                                    =================================================

                                                                    Larry wrote:

                                                                    I can't give a guess to who made it as I'm still learning the makers of
                                                                    the eara, but the Oregon Electric wording looks crooked <spelling) to
                                                                    me, the car info lettering looks like factory print.

                                                                    I hope it aint worth a million,
                                                                    I do believe I passed up a couple of these in the
                                                                    collection when I went over it lol,

                                                                    Larry

                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@.. .> wrote:
                                                                    >
                                                                    > There's presently an apparent vintage H0 "cattle car" (stock car)
                                                                    > listed on Ebay, as #280311112352, an Oregon Electric cattle car (side
                                                                    > number #401) that the Seller feels may be an Ulrich product, because
                                                                    of
                                                                    > its similarity to this manufacturer. As far as I know, Ulrich never
                                                                    > made this, and doubt very much it is an Ulrich, but out of
                                                                    curiousity --
                                                                    > does anyone know who could have produced this. While I'm not
                                                                    > interested in bidding on it, it looks like an interesting piece, as
                                                                    it
                                                                    > appears to be factory finished including the lettering, although I
                                                                    > haven't questioned the Seller to ask if it's decaled or not (I will
                                                                    do
                                                                    > so if we can't come up with an answer). I've never seen this
                                                                    roadname
                                                                    > on any kit before. Any guesses? Ray W.
                                                                    >


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                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8590 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                    Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                    Hi Chuck,

                                                                    Thanks for all of the input.  The attachments are very helpful.  Too late to tip the sides into the scene better, but that does sound like a good plan.  I am not 100% happy with the lighting yet, but have seen some good options and will try them soon.

                                                                     

                                                                    Hi Ray,

                                                                    I have started to use an edge on the first level as I did have one train take a dive already.  It sticks up ¾ “, but I have not painted this hardboard/Masonite.  All verg good ideas and I will be busy figuring out which to follow.

                                                                     

                                                                    Thanks and take care,

                                                                     

                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                     

                                                                    From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of ckinzer@...
                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 2:44 PM
                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                    Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                     

                                                                    I think there is no shortage of opinions on this.  So a few more won't kill anybody...

                                                                     

                                                                    It may not be worth much struggle to try and hide the fact that upper tiers are, well, upper tiers floating in the sky or something.

                                                                     

                                                                    I'm reminded by something that amused Jason Alexander about some of the more recent musical productions he was seeing.  He said that some mightily try to write musicals so plot points always exist to lead directly to a song instead of songs out of the blue for no apparent reason.  He said that the audience knows they are going to a musical and won't be bothered at all if a song simply appears.

                                                                     

                                                                    I think some of the same is true for a model railroad.  At the micro level of observation you can have perhaps suspend a lot reaility (except the stuff is rather small).  But step back a foot or two and, well, its a model railroad existing in the macro world and everybody knows it.

                                                                     

                                                                    So I would favor what enhances the overall experience and "feel" of the room.  Perhaps more a nod to architecture than model railroading?  For example, imagine if you were not going to have a layout but didn't want just blank walls and wanted a series of horizonatl bands along the wall.  For a formal dining room, you might have subtle shades of the same color and for a kid's room bold stripes with perhaps horizontal neon accent lines.  For a rec room, perhaps some other bit of creativity in between the extremes.

                                                                     

                                                                    Also, I don't think it is written that valences need to be vertical (although that is probably the easiest way to build them).  They could probably be angled in a bit at the bottom, 10, 20 30 degrees) so they weren't so oppressive to the level underneath and make things a little more open (given technical restraints for lighting and such).  And they don't have to be flat surfaces.  They could be rounded, or stepped for that matter.

                                                                     

                                                                    Chuck K.

                                                                     

                                                                     

                                                                    ----- Original Message -----

                                                                    From: erieberk

                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 11:12 AM

                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                     

                                                                    Chuck, I like some of your ideas, but of course this has to please
                                                                    Chuck H. I hadn't seen your suggestions until after I was done
                                                                    typing (I see we finished only 3 minutes apart). My idea of the
                                                                    mainly blue on the upper two levels' edges was to blend in with the
                                                                    rest of the sky color, not making those edges too obtrusive. But
                                                                    while I was going along with Chuck H's idea for a blue sky color, I
                                                                    would definitely go along with lightening that blue color up to make
                                                                    it look more airy and open (ALL of that blue color, even on the
                                                                    walls). A defining 3/4" molding along the top of the edge should set
                                                                    it off just right, which would not be dominating nor distracting yet
                                                                    allow the sky-blue to blend into the background. Ray

                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, <ckinzer@... > wrote:
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I'm no expert at color, and a good friend who could really be a
                                                                    help and knew commercial art and model railroading is no longer
                                                                    around to help me.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > However, the brown and green I usually see look rather ugly, even
                                                                    depressing, to me. And I have even seen black which might even be
                                                                    preferable - but requires pristine perfect surfaces to look good.
                                                                    I'm sure these are attempts to have something believed to be neutral
                                                                    or be like a foundation or mother earth or something. And I guess
                                                                    they work fairly well at that. But I'm not sure that is the best way
                                                                    to set off a layout. And a layout, especially around the room and
                                                                    even more so if multideck, can also be viewed as a glorified wall
                                                                    treatment. And multideck means a lot of square feet of fascia around
                                                                    eye level.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I suggest that instead of a color trying to represent any
                                                                    geological cross section as if some alien had sliced through the
                                                                    earth and miniaturized a chunk of it and nailed it to your walls,
                                                                    that a color that "framed" the layout surface rather than pretending
                                                                    to be part of the scenery. But not one that dominated or drew your
                                                                    eye to it like a bullseye. I think your blue color may be one of
                                                                    those too dominant colors.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Perhaps something more neutral, not too oppressively dark or
                                                                    blindingly light, and with a hint of color but not enough to
                                                                    distract. This could be a light grey color with a very light touch
                                                                    of both green and blue mixed in which would be a little sympathetic
                                                                    to all the green vegetation and blue sky on most railroads. Not much
                                                                    color. Just enough to give it a little interest since there will
                                                                    actually be quite a lot of surface area. But not so much to start
                                                                    dominating (as that blue does) because of the large surface area.
                                                                    And it wouldn't look a little less bland than some naval grey. (For
                                                                    the purists, I was in the Navy and know the colors are really "deck
                                                                    grey" and "haze grey".)
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Also, I assume there will be a lot of sky which will be a lot of
                                                                    bluish-greyish, and the the color I described probably won't be
                                                                    fighting it. The most intense colors would be those on the layout
                                                                    surface themselves. And that's as it should be, I think. The
                                                                    lighter fascia approach would probably give a lighter look to the
                                                                    layout components and the room in general. And might make the room
                                                                    look larger.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Depending on floor coloring or furniture (if any) in the room, some
                                                                    other color highlighting to the grey might make sense such as a hint
                                                                    of terra cotta or yellow.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > The idea is take the same approach often used when matting a
                                                                    painting or photo. It seems to me that mattes usually pick up
                                                                    something of the color of the subject, or perhaps involve a
                                                                    complimentary color, but not so much so as to make the matte the
                                                                    subject matter. And it looks like you have some pretty tall fascia
                                                                    so you have a lot of area to visually "drop into the background".
                                                                    >
                                                                    > There may also be a difference to how it looks to someone who is
                                                                    going to see the layout for only an hour and will probably like it no
                                                                    matter what color the fascia. And then there is the case where you
                                                                    have to look at it and live with it day after month after year. It
                                                                    should be pleasing to you no matter what anyone else thinks. It's
                                                                    pretty subjective.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Some other ideas: If you want crisper lines of demarcation,
                                                                    consider perhaps a charcoal grey color. It would result in stark
                                                                    horizontal bars throughout the room, but color neutral ones. I think
                                                                    this would give it a more modern look.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > You could also use different colors for different levels or
                                                                    sections, but I this could easily make things look to "busy". On the
                                                                    other hand, if done subtly, it could help visually seperate the
                                                                    levels so they don't blur together so much.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I did some crude (very crude) sketches in Microsoft Word and made
                                                                    some jpegs from them with different color fascias. I find doing
                                                                    something like this as helpful in visualizing and experimenting.
                                                                    It's quick and easy and doesn't always show me what works, but can
                                                                    really show what doesn't work. They are:
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Fascia blue (something like your sample)
                                                                    > Fascia brown (sort of a traditional dark brown)
                                                                    > Fascia green (for of a tradition dark green)
                                                                    > Fascia grey tint (the grey with hints of green and blue - hard to
                                                                    notice on a screen - better on large surface)
                                                                    > Fascia charcoal
                                                                    > Fascia light terracotta (just an example of something non-typical)
                                                                    > Fascia light teal (another example of something non-typical)
                                                                    > Fascia dirty lavender (another example of something non-typical -
                                                                    not a color typically on layout, probably complimentary, then)
                                                                    > Fascia multiple (three different earth tones)
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Finally, you could use some other surface other than paint. I have
                                                                    always felt that if the fascia was not a good surface, the
                                                                    imperfections showing through the paint distracted terribly from the
                                                                    fine modeling above it. Also, many use paint that is so glossy that
                                                                    imperfections are magnified. Instead, a fabric could be glued on
                                                                    like a fine burlap or something.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > You sometimes see that fake wood paneling used that was in such
                                                                    vogue in 1050's rec rooms I think. I never cared for that because
                                                                    the "grooves" distracted and didn't make sense. However, some other
                                                                    type of veneer could be used if it had uniform fine grain and stained
                                                                    to something neutral. There are even grey stains.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I'll bet there are plenty of other ideas out there.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > But for paint, you might go to the paint store and grab a whole
                                                                    bunch of their samples and not necessarily in the colors everyone
                                                                    else has usually used. And you could drive around and look at a lot
                                                                    of house colors and try to imagine them as your fascia. And if you
                                                                    can, play around with something on the screen like I did. The pixels
                                                                    give off less fumes.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Chuck Kinzer
                                                                    >
                                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                    > From: Larry
                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                    > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:15 AM
                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Just one mans opinion,
                                                                    > I've noticed it;s always green or brown in
                                                                    > most layouts, but I do think I have seen blue.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > My thoughts on this was to "if I'm ever to this point"
                                                                    > painting it like the real earth, layers of color to loosely
                                                                    replicate
                                                                    > the layers of earth if you seen half a hillside removed.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > But my thoughts are, what ever the color may be, I think it
                                                                    should be
                                                                    > a color that is more dull then the layout or what is on the
                                                                    > layout "scenery" to not take any of the focus away from the
                                                                    layout.
                                                                    > If you try to watch yourself when looking at something, more
                                                                    times
                                                                    > then not, your eyes are/might be more ap to focus on brighter
                                                                    colors
                                                                    > then duller colors...
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I sure hope that made sense lol,
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Larry
                                                                    >
                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@>
                                                                    > wrote:
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > Hello, I would like some suggestions about color. I have seen
                                                                    the
                                                                    > edges of
                                                                    > > layouts painted brown or green. But would blue look OK? I am
                                                                    > workinig on a
                                                                    > > three layer layout and just not sure what color to stay with. I
                                                                    > would like
                                                                    > > to hear your thoughts. I have attached some photos with the
                                                                    blue.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > Thanks and take care.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                    > > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                    > >
                                                                    >
                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8591 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                    Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                    Chuck,

                                                                    I will throw one more into the mix. Flat black is the absence of all
                                                                    color, so it doesn't distract the eye from the railroad scene. My
                                                                    personal opinion is that with a multilevel layout the black would
                                                                    tend to seperate the different scenes on the different levels.

                                                                    My layout is a single level, but I use flat black. A friend of mine
                                                                    who has a huge "O" gauge layout carries it even farther. He even
                                                                    paints all of his support legs and bracing flat black. When you look
                                                                    at his layout you don't notice anything underneath, only the layout
                                                                    itself.

                                                                    Bill DeFoe



                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                    wrote:
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Hi Chuck,
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Thanks for all of the input. The attachments are very helpful.
                                                                    Too late to
                                                                    > tip the sides into the scene better, but that does sound like a
                                                                    good plan.
                                                                    > I am not 100% happy with the lighting yet, but have seen some good
                                                                    options
                                                                    > and will try them soon.
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Hi Ray,
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I have started to use an edge on the first level as I did have one
                                                                    train
                                                                    > take a dive already. It sticks up ¾ ", but I have not painted this
                                                                    > hardboard/Masonite. All verg good ideas and I will be busy
                                                                    figuring out
                                                                    > which to follow.
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Thanks and take care,
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                    > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > _____
                                                                    >
                                                                    > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
                                                                    On Behalf
                                                                    > Of ckinzer@...
                                                                    > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 2:44 PM
                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                    > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I think there is no shortage of opinions on this. So a few more
                                                                    won't kill
                                                                    > anybody...
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > It may not be worth much struggle to try and hide the fact that
                                                                    upper tiers
                                                                    > are, well, upper tiers floating in the sky or something.
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I'm reminded by something that amused Jason Alexander about some of
                                                                    the more
                                                                    > recent musical productions he was seeing. He said that some
                                                                    mightily try to
                                                                    > write musicals so plot points always exist to lead directly to a
                                                                    song
                                                                    > instead of songs out of the blue for no apparent reason. He said
                                                                    that the
                                                                    > audience knows they are going to a musical and won't be bothered at
                                                                    all if a
                                                                    > song simply appears.
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > I think some of the same is true for a model railroad. At the
                                                                    micro level
                                                                    > of observation you can have perhaps suspend a lot reaility (except
                                                                    the stuff
                                                                    > is rather small). But step back a foot or two and, well, its a
                                                                    model
                                                                    > railroad existing in the macro world and everybody knows it.
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > So I would favor what enhances the overall experience and "feel" of
                                                                    the
                                                                    > room. Perhaps more a nod to architecture than model railroading?
                                                                    For
                                                                    > example, imagine if you were not going to have a layout but didn't
                                                                    want just
                                                                    > blank walls and wanted a series of horizonatl bands along the
                                                                    wall. For a
                                                                    > formal dining room, you might have subtle shades of the same color
                                                                    and for a
                                                                    > kid's room bold stripes with perhaps horizontal neon accent lines.
                                                                    For a
                                                                    > rec room, perhaps some other bit of creativity in between the
                                                                    extremes.
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Also, I don't think it is written that valences need to be vertical
                                                                    > (although that is probably the easiest way to build them). They
                                                                    could
                                                                    > probably be angled in a bit at the bottom, 10, 20 30 degrees) so
                                                                    they
                                                                    > weren't so oppressive to the level underneath and make things a
                                                                    little more
                                                                    > open (given technical restraints for lighting and such). And they
                                                                    don't
                                                                    > have to be flat surfaces. They could be rounded, or stepped for
                                                                    that
                                                                    > matter.
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Chuck K.
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                    >
                                                                    > From: erieberk <mailto:erieberk@...>
                                                                    >
                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 11:12 AM
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Chuck, I like some of your ideas, but of course this has to please
                                                                    > Chuck H. I hadn't seen your suggestions until after I was done
                                                                    > typing (I see we finished only 3 minutes apart). My idea of the
                                                                    > mainly blue on the upper two levels' edges was to blend in with the
                                                                    > rest of the sky color, not making those edges too obtrusive. But
                                                                    > while I was going along with Chuck H's idea for a blue sky color, I
                                                                    > would definitely go along with lightening that blue color up to
                                                                    make
                                                                    > it look more airy and open (ALL of that blue color, even on the
                                                                    > walls). A defining 3/4" molding along the top of the edge should
                                                                    set
                                                                    > it off just right, which would not be dominating nor distracting
                                                                    yet
                                                                    > allow the sky-blue to blend into the background. Ray
                                                                    >
                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                                    ps.com,
                                                                    > <ckinzer@> wrote:
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > I'm no expert at color, and a good friend who could really be a
                                                                    > help and knew commercial art and model railroading is no longer
                                                                    > around to help me.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > However, the brown and green I usually see look rather ugly, even
                                                                    > depressing, to me. And I have even seen black which might even be
                                                                    > preferable - but requires pristine perfect surfaces to look good.
                                                                    > I'm sure these are attempts to have something believed to be
                                                                    neutral
                                                                    > or be like a foundation or mother earth or something. And I guess
                                                                    > they work fairly well at that. But I'm not sure that is the best
                                                                    way
                                                                    > to set off a layout. And a layout, especially around the room and
                                                                    > even more so if multideck, can also be viewed as a glorified wall
                                                                    > treatment. And multideck means a lot of square feet of fascia
                                                                    around
                                                                    > eye level.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > I suggest that instead of a color trying to represent any
                                                                    > geological cross section as if some alien had sliced through the
                                                                    > earth and miniaturized a chunk of it and nailed it to your walls,
                                                                    > that a color that "framed" the layout surface rather than
                                                                    pretending
                                                                    > to be part of the scenery. But not one that dominated or drew your
                                                                    > eye to it like a bullseye. I think your blue color may be one of
                                                                    > those too dominant colors.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > Perhaps something more neutral, not too oppressively dark or
                                                                    > blindingly light, and with a hint of color but not enough to
                                                                    > distract. This could be a light grey color with a very light touch
                                                                    > of both green and blue mixed in which would be a little sympathetic
                                                                    > to all the green vegetation and blue sky on most railroads. Not
                                                                    much
                                                                    > color. Just enough to give it a little interest since there will
                                                                    > actually be quite a lot of surface area. But not so much to start
                                                                    > dominating (as that blue does) because of the large surface area.
                                                                    > And it wouldn't look a little less bland than some naval grey. (For
                                                                    > the purists, I was in the Navy and know the colors are really "deck
                                                                    > grey" and "haze grey".)
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > Also, I assume there will be a lot of sky which will be a lot of
                                                                    > bluish-greyish, and the the color I described probably won't be
                                                                    > fighting it. The most intense colors would be those on the layout
                                                                    > surface themselves. And that's as it should be, I think. The
                                                                    > lighter fascia approach would probably give a lighter look to the
                                                                    > layout components and the room in general. And might make the room
                                                                    > look larger.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > Depending on floor coloring or furniture (if any) in the room,
                                                                    some
                                                                    > other color highlighting to the grey might make sense such as a
                                                                    hint
                                                                    > of terra cotta or yellow.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > The idea is take the same approach often used when matting a
                                                                    > painting or photo. It seems to me that mattes usually pick up
                                                                    > something of the color of the subject, or perhaps involve a
                                                                    > complimentary color, but not so much so as to make the matte the
                                                                    > subject matter. And it looks like you have some pretty tall fascia
                                                                    > so you have a lot of area to visually "drop into the background".
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > There may also be a difference to how it looks to someone who is
                                                                    > going to see the layout for only an hour and will probably like it
                                                                    no
                                                                    > matter what color the fascia. And then there is the case where you
                                                                    > have to look at it and live with it day after month after year. It
                                                                    > should be pleasing to you no matter what anyone else thinks. It's
                                                                    > pretty subjective.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > Some other ideas: If you want crisper lines of demarcation,
                                                                    > consider perhaps a charcoal grey color. It would result in stark
                                                                    > horizontal bars throughout the room, but color neutral ones. I
                                                                    think
                                                                    > this would give it a more modern look.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > You could also use different colors for different levels or
                                                                    > sections, but I this could easily make things look to "busy". On
                                                                    the
                                                                    > other hand, if done subtly, it could help visually seperate the
                                                                    > levels so they don't blur together so much.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > I did some crude (very crude) sketches in Microsoft Word and made
                                                                    > some jpegs from them with different color fascias. I find doing
                                                                    > something like this as helpful in visualizing and experimenting.
                                                                    > It's quick and easy and doesn't always show me what works, but can
                                                                    > really show what doesn't work. They are:
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > Fascia blue (something like your sample)
                                                                    > > Fascia brown (sort of a traditional dark brown)
                                                                    > > Fascia green (for of a tradition dark green)
                                                                    > > Fascia grey tint (the grey with hints of green and blue - hard to
                                                                    > notice on a screen - better on large surface)
                                                                    > > Fascia charcoal
                                                                    > > Fascia light terracotta (just an example of something non-typical)
                                                                    > > Fascia light teal (another example of something non-typical)
                                                                    > > Fascia dirty lavender (another example of something non-typical -
                                                                    > not a color typically on layout, probably complimentary, then)
                                                                    > > Fascia multiple (three different earth tones)
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > Finally, you could use some other surface other than paint. I
                                                                    have
                                                                    > always felt that if the fascia was not a good surface, the
                                                                    > imperfections showing through the paint distracted terribly from
                                                                    the
                                                                    > fine modeling above it. Also, many use paint that is so glossy that
                                                                    > imperfections are magnified. Instead, a fabric could be glued on
                                                                    > like a fine burlap or something.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > You sometimes see that fake wood paneling used that was in such
                                                                    > vogue in 1050's rec rooms I think. I never cared for that because
                                                                    > the "grooves" distracted and didn't make sense. However, some other
                                                                    > type of veneer could be used if it had uniform fine grain and
                                                                    stained
                                                                    > to something neutral. There are even grey stains.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > I'll bet there are plenty of other ideas out there.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > But for paint, you might go to the paint store and grab a whole
                                                                    > bunch of their samples and not necessarily in the colors everyone
                                                                    > else has usually used. And you could drive around and look at a lot
                                                                    > of house colors and try to imagine them as your fascia. And if you
                                                                    > can, play around with something on the screen like I did. The
                                                                    pixels
                                                                    > give off less fumes.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > Chuck Kinzer
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                    > > From: Larry
                                                                    > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                                    ps.com
                                                                    > > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:15 AM
                                                                    > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > Just one mans opinion,
                                                                    > > I've noticed it;s always green or brown in
                                                                    > > most layouts, but I do think I have seen blue.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > My thoughts on this was to "if I'm ever to this point"
                                                                    > > painting it like the real earth, layers of color to loosely
                                                                    > replicate
                                                                    > > the layers of earth if you seen half a hillside removed.
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > But my thoughts are, what ever the color may be, I think it
                                                                    > should be
                                                                    > > a color that is more dull then the layout or what is on the
                                                                    > > layout "scenery" to not take any of the focus away from the
                                                                    > layout.
                                                                    > > If you try to watch yourself when looking at something, more
                                                                    > times
                                                                    > > then not, your eyes are/might be more ap to focus on brighter
                                                                    > colors
                                                                    > > then duller colors...
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > I sure hope that made sense lol,
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > Larry
                                                                    > >
                                                                    > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                                    ps.com,
                                                                    > "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@>
                                                                    > > wrote:
                                                                    > > >
                                                                    > > > Hello, I would like some suggestions about color. I have seen
                                                                    > the
                                                                    > > edges of
                                                                    > > > layouts painted brown or green. But would blue look OK? I am
                                                                    > > workinig on a
                                                                    > > > three layer layout and just not sure what color to stay with. I
                                                                    > > would like
                                                                    > > > to hear your thoughts. I have attached some photos with the
                                                                    > blue.
                                                                    > > >
                                                                    > > > Thanks and take care.
                                                                    > > >
                                                                    > > >
                                                                    > > >
                                                                    > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                    > > > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104>
                                                                    > webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                    > > >
                                                                    > >
                                                                    >
                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8592 From: erieberk Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                    Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: Utah Scale Models
                                                                    Thanks guys for all your input. Bill, you may have something in that
                                                                    it may be an Ambroid (custom lettered). I didn't pay particular
                                                                    attention to the bracing, and I know I should have. It appeared
                                                                    glossy and I just took it as metal, but of couse that's due to its
                                                                    semi-gloss laquer finish. I received a reply back from the Seller,
                                                                    who said it appeared as though it were hand-lettered -- so not a
                                                                    factory production item, even though a fairly good job if that's what
                                                                    it is. A double-deck car, as this appears to be, would be a poultry
                                                                    car as at least one possibility (maybe a hog car too?), and we know
                                                                    Ambroid produced poultry cars. Ray W.



                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Bill Wright <wmewrght@...> wrote:
                                                                    >
                                                                    > This stock car does not match the two Mainline stockcars I have or
                                                                    the
                                                                    > Ulrich stock car I have. The two Mainline cars have fishbelly
                                                                    > underframes. These are short cars, scaling out at 37 feet long. The
                                                                    > stirrup steps are different.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > The Ulrich car has different side bracing. The side bracing is a
                                                                    metal
                                                                    > casting and the stirrup steps are cast with the sides.
                                                                    > It does look similar to an Ambroid kit I built 40+ years ago. Side
                                                                    > bracing appears to be the same. Both my car and the eBay car are
                                                                    double
                                                                    > deck cars with the wide slat running lengthwise along the side of
                                                                    the
                                                                    > car where the second deck is. I would call the eBay car a custom
                                                                    > lettered Ambroid.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Bill Wright
                                                                    >
                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8593 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                    Subject: Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                    Chuck,

                                                                    Just want to thank you again for making all of the different JPGs.  I have and will for a while yet been studying them.  My lower level will represent south Florida , so a light tan or sand ground cover with vegetation will be on that level and much of the middle lever.  So that light terracotta is starting to make sense.  I have the color tab for the blue and can see what tan they recommend at the paint store. 

                                                                     

                                                                    Yes, that blue is there, but I have seen and photographed it in my area.  Not only straight up, but on the horizon.  It will lighten up with the clouds that will get on it someday.  Still a lot to think about and I am sure I will change my mind a few times.

                                                                     

                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                     

                                                                    From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of ckinzer@...
                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 1:46 PM
                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                     

                                                                    I'm no expert at color, and a good friend who could really be a help and knew commercial art and model railroading is no longer around to help me.

                                                                     

                                                                    However, the brown and green I usually see look rather ugly, even depressing, to me.  And I have even seen black which might even be preferable - but requires pristine perfect surfaces to look good.  I'm sure these are attempts to have something believed to be neutral or be like a foundation or mother earth or something.  And I guess they work fairly well at that.  But I'm not sure that is the best way to set off a layout.  And a layout, especially around the room and even more so if multideck, can also be viewed as a glorified wall treatment.  And multideck means a lot of square feet of fascia around eye level.

                                                                     

                                                                    I suggest that instead of a color trying to represent any geological cross section as if some alien had sliced through the earth and miniaturized a chunk of it and nailed it to your walls, that a color that "framed" the layout surface rather than pretending to be part of the scenery.  But not one that dominated or drew your eye to it like a bullseye.  I think your blue color may be one of those too dominant colors.

                                                                     

                                                                    Perhaps something more neutral, not too oppressively dark or blindingly light, and with a hint of color but not enough to distract.  This could be a light grey color with a very light touch of both green and blue mixed in which would be a little sympathetic to all the green vegetation and blue sky on most railroads.  Not much color.  Just enough to give it a little interest since there will actually be quite a lot of surface area.  But not so much to start dominating (as that blue does) because of the large surface area.  And it wouldn't look a little less bland than some naval grey.  (For the purists, I was in the Navy and know the colors are really "deck grey" and "haze grey".)

                                                                     

                                                                    Also, I assume there will be a lot of sky which will be a lot of bluish-greyish, and the the color I described probably won't be fighting it.  The most intense colors would be those on the layout surface themselves.  And that's as it should be, I think.  The lighter fascia approach would probably give a lighter look to the layout components and the room in general.  And might make the room look larger.

                                                                     

                                                                    Depending on floor coloring or furniture (if any) in the room, some other color highlighting to the grey might make sense such as a hint of terra cotta or yellow.

                                                                     

                                                                    The idea is take the same approach often used when matting a painting or photo.  It seems to me that mattes usually pick up something of the color of the subject, or perhaps involve a complimentary color, but not so much so as to make the matte the subject matter.  And it looks like you have some pretty tall fascia so you have a lot of area to visually "drop into the background".

                                                                     

                                                                    There may also be a difference to how it looks to someone who is going to see the layout for only an hour and will probably like it no matter what color the fascia.  And then there is the case where you have to look at it and live with it day after month after year.  It should be pleasing to you no matter what anyone else thinks.  It's pretty subjective.

                                                                     

                                                                    Some other ideas:  If you want crisper lines of demarcation, consider perhaps a charcoal grey color.  It would result in stark horizontal bars throughout the room, but color neutral ones.  I think this would give it a more modern look.

                                                                     

                                                                    You could also use different colors for different levels or sections, but I this could easily make things look to "busy".  On the other hand, if done subtly, it could help visually seperate the levels so they don't blur together so much.

                                                                     

                                                                    I did some crude (very crude) sketches in Microsoft Word and made some jpegs from them with different color fascias.  I find doing something like this as helpful in visualizing and experimenting.  It's quick and easy and doesn't always show me what works, but can really show what doesn't work.  They are:

                                                                     

                                                                    Fascia blue (something like your sample)

                                                                    Fascia brown (sort of a traditional dark brown)

                                                                    Fascia green (for of a tradition dark green)

                                                                    Fascia grey tint (the grey with hints of green and blue - hard to notice on a screen - better on large surface)

                                                                    Fascia charcoal

                                                                    Fascia light terracotta (just an example of something non-typical)

                                                                    Fascia light teal (another example of something non-typical)

                                                                    Fascia dirty lavender (another example of something non-typical - not a color typically on layout, probably complimentary, then)

                                                                    Fascia multiple (three different earth tones)

                                                                     

                                                                    Finally, you could use some other surface other than paint.  I have always felt that if the fascia was not a good surface, the imperfections showing through the paint distracted terribly from the fine modeling above it.  Also, many use paint that is so glossy that imperfections are magnified.  Instead, a fabric could be glued on like a fine burlap or something.

                                                                     

                                                                    You sometimes see that fake wood paneling used that was in such vogue in 1050's rec rooms I think.  I never cared for that because the "grooves" distracted and didn't make sense.  However, some other type of veneer could be used if it had uniform fine grain and stained to something neutral.  There are even grey stains.

                                                                     

                                                                    I'll bet there are plenty of other ideas out there.

                                                                     

                                                                    But for paint, you might go to the paint store and grab a whole bunch of their samples and not necessarily in the colors everyone else has usually used.  And you could drive around and look at a lot of house colors and try to imagine them as your fascia.  And if you can, play around with something on the screen like I did.  The pixels give off less fumes.

                                                                     

                                                                    Chuck Kinzer

                                                                     

                                                                    ----- Original Message -----

                                                                    From: Larry

                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:15 AM

                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                     

                                                                    Just one mans opinion,
                                                                    I've noticed it;s always green or brown in
                                                                    most layouts, but I do think I have seen blue.

                                                                    My thoughts on this was to "if I'm ever to this point"
                                                                    painting it like the real earth, layers of color to loosely replicate
                                                                    the layers of earth if you seen half a hillside removed.

                                                                    But my thoughts are, what ever the color may be, I think it should be
                                                                    a color that is more dull then the layout or what is on the
                                                                    layout "scenery" to not take any of the focus away from the layout.
                                                                    If you try to watch yourself when looking at something, more times
                                                                    then not, your eyes are/might be more ap to focus on brighter colors
                                                                    then duller colors...

                                                                    I sure hope that made sense lol,

                                                                    Larry

                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..>
                                                                    wrote:
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Hello, I would like some suggestions about color. I have seen the
                                                                    edges of
                                                                    > layouts painted brown or green. But would blue look OK? I am
                                                                    workinig on a
                                                                    > three layer layout and just not sure what color to stay with. I
                                                                    would like
                                                                    > to hear your thoughts. I have attached some photos with the blue.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Thanks and take care.
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                    > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                    >
                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8594 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 2/8/2009
                                                                    Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                    You could also make a sketch with a little more detail of a section of the layout room and color it with colored pencils or colored markers a trial.   (My artist friend used colored markers all the time and you may have seen Chip Foose using them on his car sketches on the "Overhaulin" show.)
                                                                     
                                                                    Or make a miniature of the railroad (others have done this) and color the little fascias with your color ideas.
                                                                     
                                                                    Chuck Kinzer
                                                                     
                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 6:07 PM
                                                                    Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                    Chuck,

                                                                    Just want to thank you again for making all of the different JPGs.  I have and will for a while yet been studying them.  My lower level will represent south Florida , so a light tan or sand ground cover with vegetation will be on that level and much of the middle lever.  So that light terracotta is starting to make sense.  I have the color tab for the blue and can see what tan they recommend at the paint store. 

                                                                    Yes, that blue is there, but I have seen and photographed it in my area.  Not only straight up, but on the horizon.  It will lighten up with the clouds that will get on it someday.  Still a lot to think about and I am sure I will change my mind a few times.

                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

                                                                    From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of ckinzer@att. net
                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 1:46 PM
                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                    I'm no expert at color, and a good friend who could really be a help and knew commercial art and model railroading is no longer around to help me.

                                                                    However, the brown and green I usually see look rather ugly, even depressing, to me.  And I have even seen black which might even be preferable - but requires pristine perfect surfaces to look good.  I'm sure these are attempts to have something believed to be neutral or be like a foundation or mother earth or something.  And I guess they work fairly well at that.  But I'm not sure that is the best way to set off a layout.  And a layout, especially around the room and even more so if multideck, can also be viewed as a glorified wall treatment.  And multideck means a lot of square feet of fascia around eye level.

                                                                    I suggest that instead of a color trying to represent any geological cross section as if some alien had sliced through the earth and miniaturized a chunk of it and nailed it to your walls, that a color that "framed" the layout surface rather than pretending to be part of the scenery.  But not one that dominated or drew your eye to it like a bullseye.  I think your blue color may be one of those too dominant colors.

                                                                    Perhaps something more neutral, not too oppressively dark or blindingly light, and with a hint of color but not enough to distract.  This could be a light grey color with a very light touch of both green and blue mixed in which would be a little sympathetic to all the green vegetation and blue sky on most railroads.  Not much color.  Just enough to give it a little interest since there will actually be quite a lot of surface area.  But not so much to start dominating (as that blue does) because of the large surface area.  And it wouldn't look a little less bland than some naval grey.  (For the purists, I was in the Navy and know the colors are really "deck grey" and "haze grey".)

                                                                    Also, I assume there will be a lot of sky which will be a lot of bluish-greyish, and the the color I described probably won't be fighting it.  The most intense colors would be those on the layout surface themselves.  And that's as it should be, I think.  The lighter fascia approach would probably give a lighter look to the layout components and the room in general.  And might make the room look larger.

                                                                    Depending on floor coloring or furniture (if any) in the room, some other color highlighting to the grey might make sense such as a hint of terra cotta or yellow.

                                                                    The idea is take the same approach often used when matting a painting or photo.  It seems to me that mattes usually pick up something of the color of the subject, or perhaps involve a complimentary color, but not so much so as to make the matte the subject matter.  And it looks like you have some pretty tall fascia so you have a lot of area to visually "drop into the background".

                                                                    There may also be a difference to how it looks to someone who is going to see the layout for only an hour and will probably like it no matter what color the fascia.  And then there is the case where you have to look at it and live with it day after month after year.  It should be pleasing to you no matter what anyone else thinks.  It's pretty subjective.

                                                                    Some other ideas:  If you want crisper lines of demarcation, consider perhaps a charcoal grey color.  It would result in stark horizontal bars throughout the room, but color neutral ones.  I think this would give it a more modern look.

                                                                    You could also use different colors for different levels or sections, but I this could easily make things look to "busy".  On the other hand, if done subtly, it could help visually seperate the levels so they don't blur together so much.

                                                                    I did some crude (very crude) sketches in Microsoft Word and made some jpegs from them with different color fascias.  I find doing something like this as helpful in visualizing and experimenting.  It's quick and easy and doesn't always show me what works, but can really show what doesn't work.  They are:

                                                                    Fascia blue (something like your sample)

                                                                    Fascia brown (sort of a traditional dark brown)

                                                                    Fascia green (for of a tradition dark green)

                                                                    Fascia grey tint (the grey with hints of green and blue - hard to notice on a screen - better on large surface)

                                                                    Fascia charcoal

                                                                    Fascia light terracotta (just an example of something non-typical)

                                                                    Fascia light teal (another example of something non-typical)

                                                                    Fascia dirty lavender (another example of something non-typical - not a color typically on layout, probably complimentary, then)

                                                                    Fascia multiple (three different earth tones)

                                                                    Finally, you could use some other surface other than paint.  I have always felt that if the fascia was not a good surface, the imperfections showing through the paint distracted terribly from the fine modeling above it.  Also, many use paint that is so glossy that imperfections are magnified.  Instead, a fabric could be glued on like a fine burlap or something.

                                                                    You sometimes see that fake wood paneling used that was in such vogue in 1050's rec rooms I think.  I never cared for that because the "grooves" distracted and didn't make sense.  However, some other type of veneer could be used if it had uniform fine grain and stained to something neutral.  There are even grey stains.

                                                                    I'll bet there are plenty of other ideas out there.

                                                                    But for paint, you might go to the paint store and grab a whole bunch of their samples and not necessarily in the colors everyone else has usually used.  And you could drive around and look at a lot of house colors and try to imagine them as your fascia.  And if you can, play around with something on the screen like I did.  The pixels give off less fumes.

                                                                    Chuck Kinzer

                                                                    ----- Original Message -----

                                                                    From: Larry

                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:15 AM

                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                    Just one mans opinion,
                                                                    I've noticed it;s always green or brown in
                                                                    most layouts, but I do think I have seen blue.

                                                                    My thoughts on this was to "if I'm ever to this point"
                                                                    painting it like the real earth, layers of color to loosely replicate
                                                                    the layers of earth if you seen half a hillside removed.

                                                                    But my thoughts are, what ever the color may be, I think it should be
                                                                    a color that is more dull then the layout or what is on the
                                                                    layout "scenery" to not take any of the focus away from the layout.
                                                                    If you try to watch yourself when looking at something, more times
                                                                    then not, your eyes are/might be more ap to focus on brighter colors
                                                                    then duller colors...

                                                                    I sure hope that made sense lol,

                                                                    Larry

                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..>
                                                                    wrote:
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Hello, I would like some suggestions about color. I have seen the
                                                                    edges of
                                                                    > layouts painted brown or green. But would blue look OK? I am
                                                                    workinig on a
                                                                    > three layer layout and just not sure what color to stay with. I
                                                                    would like
                                                                    > to hear your thoughts. I have attached some photos with the blue.
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Thanks and take care.
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    >
                                                                    > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                    > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                    >
                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8595 From: nvrr49 Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                    Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                    A lot more diversity in opinions than I would have guessed, so I will
                                                                    throw in my two cents. What do the professional diorama builders, for
                                                                    instance, at a museum around their large displays...Flat Black. It
                                                                    disappears, the eye's drawn to the light, or in this case, the layout,
                                                                    where you want them.
                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8596 From: Chris B Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                    Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                      two more cents, using photoshop.   I was surprised by how two or three bands of flat black seemed to jump out more than I expected, compared to dark gray and other muted hues.   I am building a 2 and 1/2 deck layout around the walls of a large family room right now, I always expected to use flat black, but this discussion and this photo shop exercise now has me leaning towards a medium dark very muted green, for the simple reason that it appears to me at least slightly plausible to the eye as multiple grades of an actual landscape, separated by steep planes of vegetation.  I know it's not really plausible, but I was surprised how normal it looked to my eye compared to all the other choices.
                                                                      Chris B. 

                                                                      From: nvrr49 <nvrr49@...>
                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                      Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 8:20:49 AM
                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                      A lot more diversity in opinions than I would have guessed, so I will
                                                                      throw in my two cents. What do the professional diorama builders, for
                                                                      instance, at a museum around their large displays...Flat Black. It
                                                                      disappears, the eye's drawn to the light, or in this case, the layout,
                                                                      where you want them.
                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8597 From: Bill Wright Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                      Subject: Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)
                                                                      Somehow I replied earlier using the wrong subject line.

                                                                      I always thought the double deck stock cars were for sheep, although
                                                                      hogs would also fit. The Ambroid poultry cars were different.

                                                                      I finally found my Ambroid stock car and looked at the underbody. It
                                                                      matches the underbody of the car on eBay.

                                                                      Bill Wright
                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8598 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                      Subject: Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)
                                                                      Poultry cars had screens in addition to slats.
                                                                      Don in VA
                                                                      ===============================================

                                                                      Bill Wright wrote:

                                                                      Somehow I replied earlier using the wrong subject line.

                                                                      I always thought the double deck stock cars were for sheep, although
                                                                      hogs would also fit. The Ambroid poultry cars were different.

                                                                      I finally found my Ambroid stock car and looked at the underbody. It
                                                                      matches the underbody of the car on eBay.

                                                                      Bill Wright
                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8599 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                      Subject: Re: Wood Cattle Car Identity (?)
                                                                      I believe that Ulrich produced cars with both fabricated-wood and
                                                                      cast metal bracing, in that order.

                                                                      Denny


                                                                      Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                      Sacramento
                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8600 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                      Subject: Re: kit or project ?
                                                                      Hi Ray,
                                                                             I thank you for your research and your response. It sounds like you could be on the right track. Unfortunately I can't look at the issue you site. I have every issue from 1992 till the end. That's probably when I joined. I have a lot of issues from 1986-1989 but nothing for 1990 or 1991. I was in the process of buying missing copies from Dave when it ended
                                                                             The item you cite would be plausible. Everything matches. I have one question. My body has a one piece roof and sides, no seams or soldering,  made from "brass/bronze"sheet. (Wish I was a metallurgist so I could tell brass from bronze and alloys in between). What does that article state about the roof ? I get the impression (which means nothing) that the roof was pre rolled to round. No kinks anywhere especially at the edges where it meets the straight sides.
                                                                              I have looked and looked at this engine trying to decide factory or project, maybe a little of both but can't make a decision. For now I will all it POSSIBLE GARCO. Whatever it is I'm glad I bought it to find out. Always looking for that unknown piece.
                                                                            Have a nice day and enjoy the warmer temps and melting mess.                                       Jim
                                                                       
                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                      From: erieberk
                                                                      Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:39 AM
                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: kit or project ?

                                                                      Good Morning Jim, Okay, back here to your mystery engine. I don't
                                                                      believe it's a kitbash job. I was just now going through my old
                                                                      issues of the HO SC&H SIG Reporting Mark issues for an article I
                                                                      wrote on Railmaster, when I came across something extremely
                                                                      interesting. There's a 4-page article with illustrations on some of
                                                                      our "old friend" Harry Garrett's products. One of these products
                                                                      appears to possibly be your engine, and while it doesn't show all the
                                                                      separated detail parts (cab window frames, ribbing on the sides of
                                                                      the body, etc.) that you described -- and what I remember seeing of
                                                                      the Ebay photo -- I'm willing to bet this may be it.

                                                                      This kit was made of bronze. The cab came separate, the back is
                                                                      solid bronze and the frame is made of solid bronze pieces to be
                                                                      soldered together. Even looks like there may be 8 exhaust and air
                                                                      scoops, but they're not shown as being separate (maybe this
                                                                      particular model in this illustration was already started by this
                                                                      time). If this is it, which is a good bet, it's a Garco model (Harry
                                                                      J. Garrett & Co. -- Scale Model Supplies) simply described as an "EMC
                                                                      Passenger Diesel" (which we already knew since it's quite obvious).
                                                                      There was an A-Unit and a B-unit, both sold separately and they were
                                                                      made in both 0 Gauge and H0 Gauge. The B-Unit (H0) was offered in
                                                                      either bronze or aluminum -- cost $$10.00. The A-Unit (H0) cost
                                                                      $12.50. I think you said you have all the issue -- go back to Volume
                                                                      9, Number 2 (April 1991) and you'll see what I mean. Ray Wetzel

                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                      >
                                                                      > A few days ago I won an item on Ebay that (1) was
                                                                      unsure what prototype it was (2) was it a kit, an already assembled
                                                                      manufactured item or some ones project. Thanks to many who identified
                                                                      it I know what the engine is meant to represent.
                                                                      > The item arrived today and it still makes me wonder. It still
                                                                      could be a kit that was assembled. Who ever did it was very good at
                                                                      soldering as you will see as I describe the construction. I wish I
                                                                      was that good. Yet it could still be "parts" the builder used to make
                                                                      his/her project.
                                                                      > The nose of the item from behind the first side window is
                                                                      cast and soldered to the rest. The skirt/pilot on the front under the
                                                                      cab is cast and attached by little screws. The main body is sheet
                                                                      brass. The frame is solid brass pieces soldered together and the back
                                                                      is a solid piece of brass. The construction that fascinates me the
                                                                      most are (1) All ribbing on the sides of the body are separate
                                                                      little pieces of brass soldered on. (2) The cab windows plus the
                                                                      windows on the sides of the body are all pieces that have been shaped
                                                                      (the cab windows) and soldered on. Inside the windows on the sides
                                                                      of the body have brass pieces soldered on that allow you to "slip" in
                                                                      window material and it will be held in place (3) The detail on top
                                                                      has been soldered on. Every (all 8) exhaust and air scoops are
                                                                      separate pieces that have been soldered into the created openings.
                                                                      (4) The top of the cab has an added piece of brass shaped that
                                                                      covers the joint of the cast brass cabin and the sheet brass body. It
                                                                      is attached by little screws that let it lay on the tops of the front
                                                                      window frames and is soldered there. (4) The hanging ladders and
                                                                      including the ladder material located on the body under the middle
                                                                      side window are soldered on.
                                                                      > I have a feeling this model is a couple of years old since the
                                                                      lamp for lighting the two headlights is very large. It definitely is
                                                                      not a grain of wheat bulb. This engine will be finished as I find
                                                                      some missing drive parts.
                                                                      > SEAN N I'LL BE CONTACTING YOU TO FIND, HOPEFULLY, SOME MISSING
                                                                      COMPONENTS.
                                                                      > Whether a kit now assemble, a manufactured item or some ones
                                                                      project it will be fun and interesting.
                                                                      >
                                                                      Jim H
                                                                      >
                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8601 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                      Subject: find out
                                                                      Hi Ray
                                                                       
                                                                             I am really starting to believe there was a REAL close relationship between the A&S (Adams & Son) casting company, Dallas Model Craft (DMC) and GARCO and I don't mean it was just supplying parts. Their products seem to constantly overlap.  Even the relationship with Varney too.
                                                                          I wish I could find out more but there is little background information about these companies, like owners. Other then the products they produced, unless there is a lot of that information in the article you cited, it is hard to come by.
                                                                          Any one out there have any info , even little bits and pieces, would be helpful. Maybe someone out there has the entire story.
                                                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8602 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                      Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                      Black may be done a lot.  But I don't think it is at all universal.  
                                                                       
                                                                      Here are lots of links to this and that.  First a few non-professional, then many professional builders...
                                                                       
                                                                      NON-PROFESSIONAL
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                      This is one where somebody has used the Paint program to see what a friend's existing layout would look like changing from the existing tan to black.  And there are two treatments.  One is the entire fascia tan.  The other black up to the lowest fascia elevation giving the black a straight top edge:
                                                                       
                                                                      "If you ask 6 people what color to paint the fascia you'll get 7
                                                                      answers."  This goes on to discuss black with some humor.  Discusses reasons for black, but advises using same color as basic scenery for the first attempt.
                                                                       
                                                                      http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51363 has many photos focusing on fascia and ceiling that are black black black.  (Most sites avoide showing fascia if they can - this overwhelms you with it.)  There is some chatting that introduces a whole new variable not yet discussed by us - the spouse.  This may act as a warning to some...
                                                                       
                                                                      "Nice looking layout you have going there. As to facia color, I have used a color similar to Pullman Green. A friend of mine used it, and as soon as I saw it, I was hooked. It does not seem to soak up as much light as just pure black does. Also, my wife likes the green color better, she says it dresses up the layout room. So,that settled that."
                                                                       
                                                                      PROFESSIONAL DISPLAY LAYOUTS
                                                                       
                                                                      Museum of Science and Industry (I've seen this layout and couldn't remember the fascia color.  Maybe that's the idea.  I do remember that the original layout in that location used Budd fluted stainless steel siding.)
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                      Professional layout builders (of course, they will do what their clients want I suppose):
                                                                       
                                                                      dunhamstudios.com - public layouts area - probably the biggest name in the game and also do theatrical design which clearly spills over into their public layout design.
                                                                       
                                                                      http://www.dunhamstudios.com/cititour.htm (few inches of red above green, tongue and groove wood, Xmas season layout)
                                                                       
                                                                      http://www.dunhamstudios.com/altoona.htm (gray fascia, black below)
                                                                       
                                                                      http://www.dunhamstudios.com/images/valley/control.jpg (black with a light grey arm rest molding atop)
                                                                       
                                                                      http://www.dunhamstudios.com/arop.htm (pale green with a purplish blue below maybe?)
                                                                       
                                                                      http://www.dunhamstudios.com/navy.htm (two tone green - Xmas season layout)
                                                                       
                                                                      http://www.dunhamstudios.com/necentral.htm (looks like light to medium brown)
                                                                       
                                                                      layoutsbysteve.com
                                                                       
                                                                      http://www.layoutsbysteve.com/fin.htm (black, grey, brown, even mild blue it looks like for one)
                                                                       
                                                                      http://www.layoutsbysteve.com/fin10.html (photo 7 looks like unfinished pine board, 8 is brown)
                                                                       
                                                                      cmtrain.com:
                                                                       
                                                                      http://www.cmrtrain.com/B&O.html (looks like medium grey fascia with black below that)
                                                                       
                                                                      http://www.cmrtrain.com/nw.html (Unusual treatment of brown over appearance of orange metal with riveted plates)
                                                                       
                                                                      http://www.cmrtrain.com/ho1.html (medium dirty green)
                                                                       
                                                                      http://www.cmrtrain.com/hosmall.html (some photos grey, some green)
                                                                       
                                                                      http://www.cmrtrain.com/gscale.html (green fascia, black below that)
                                                                       
                                                                      http://www.cmrtrain.com/mall.html (white fascia - but it is for winter holiday scenery)
                                                                       
                                                                      raildreams.com
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                      http://www.raildreams.com/cooncreek.html (white wash finished wood cabinetry to floor)
                                                                       
                                                                      http://www.raildreams.com/waller.html (lighter faded looking green, like some ground cover)
                                                                       
                                                                      http://www.raildreams.com/greatnorthern.html (black and some looks masonite - perhaps not yet painted)
                                                                       
                                                                      shelflayouts.com
                                                                       
                                                                      http://shelflayouts.com/gallery.php (most pics avoid showing fascia, but one is a very neutral looking earth color, other may be same or a grey)
                                                                       
                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                       
                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                      From: nvrr49
                                                                      Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 5:20 AM
                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                      A lot more diversity in opinions than I would have guessed, so I will
                                                                      throw in my two cents. What do the professional diorama builders, for
                                                                      instance, at a museum around their large displays...Flat Black. It
                                                                      disappears, the eye's drawn to the light, or in this case, the layout,
                                                                      where you want them.
                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8603 From: Chris B Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                      Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                      This would seem to be a question that would apply universally to all layouts, but since this is the vintage group, I'll ask the vintage question. 

                                                                      I've got hopes of using vintage structures and tru scale track and turnouts on my under construction layout, and running vintage metal cars pulled by diecast switchers with hobbytown drives.

                                                                      In terms of vintage layouts, especially the early multi-deck layouts, would any group members care to offer suggestions on what would look "right" for fascia and valance treatments, from a vintage perspective?

                                                                      what was commonly used when die cast engines were the norm?

                                                                      Chris B.

                                                                      ________________________________
                                                                      From: "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...>
                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                      Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 1:42:17 PM
                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be


                                                                      Black may be done a lot.  But I don't think it is at all universal.  
                                                                       
                                                                      Here are lots of links to this and that.  First a few non-professional, then many professional builders...
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                       
                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                      From: nvrr49
                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                      Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 5:20 AM
                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                      A lot more diversity in opinions than I would have guessed, so I will
                                                                      throw in my two cents. What do the professional diorama builders, for
                                                                      instance, at a museum around their large displays...Flat Black. It
                                                                      disappears, the eye's drawn to the light, or in this case, the layout,
                                                                      where you want them.
                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8604 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                      Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                      Tru-Scale track and turnouts, Wow, that would look good.  A valence above to block light from eyes of viewers and cabinets, shelves, curtains or scenery part way or all the way to floor ala, John's G&D were all used in those days.

                                                                      Don in VA
                                                                      =============================================

                                                                      Chris B wrote:


                                                                      This would seem to be a question that would apply universally to all layouts, but since this is the vintage group, I'll ask the vintage question. 

                                                                      I've got hopes of using vintage structures and tru scale track and turnouts on my under construction layout, and running vintage metal cars pulled by diecast switchers with hobbytown drives.

                                                                      In terms of vintage layouts, especially the early multi-deck layouts, would any group members care to offer suggestions on what would look "right" for fascia and valance treatments, from a vintage perspective?

                                                                      what was commonly used when die cast engines were the norm?

                                                                      Chris B.

                                                                      ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                      From: "ckinzer@att. net" <ckinzer@att. net>
                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                      Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 1:42:17 PM
                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                      Black may be done a lot.  But I don't think it is at all universal.  
                                                                       
                                                                      Here are lots of links to this and that.  First a few non-professional, then many professional builders...
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                       
                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                      From: nvrr49
                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                      Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 5:20 AM
                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                      A lot more diversity in opinions than I would have guessed, so I will
                                                                      throw in my two cents. What do the professional diorama builders, for
                                                                      instance, at a museum around their large displays...Flat Black. It
                                                                      disappears, the eye's drawn to the light, or in this case, the layout,
                                                                      where you want them.
                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8605 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                      Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                      I'm also a fan of flat black for all the benchwork. As Bill says, that way
                                                                      the eye is drawn to the layout.

                                                                      Don

                                                                      Don Dellmann
                                                                      don.dellmann@...
                                                                      http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                      http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                      Owner
                                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                      From: "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...>
                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                      Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 6:18 PM
                                                                      Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be


                                                                      Chuck,

                                                                      I will throw one more into the mix. Flat black is the absence of all
                                                                      color, so it doesn't distract the eye from the railroad scene. My
                                                                      personal opinion is that with a multilevel layout the black would
                                                                      tend to seperate the different scenes on the different levels.

                                                                      My layout is a single level, but I use flat black. A friend of mine
                                                                      who has a huge "O" gauge layout carries it even farther. He even
                                                                      paints all of his support legs and bracing flat black. When you look
                                                                      at his layout you don't notice anything underneath, only the layout
                                                                      itself.

                                                                      Bill DeFoe

                                                                      (text bobbitted)
                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8606 From: Larry Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                      Subject: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
                                                                      Hey Guys,
                                                                      Ok here goes,
                                                                      I went to the LHS the other day, picked up some wrong paint,
                                                                      grrrrrrr and few detail parts and a much needed and forgot to get the
                                                                      last time, oil...
                                                                      Labell medium oil,
                                                                      So anyway, I have two 4-6-2 Mantua steam engines,
                                                                      Forst one I got, runs real cruddy, not to good in reverse or not like
                                                                      a full power engine should but not bad, but forword
                                                                      it is really weak and then stops after a short time,
                                                                      The other, same exact model, ran great, but man was it noisey,
                                                                      So, after I got my oil n things, I've been going through and giving
                                                                      all my motive power a shot of oil where it needs, this is stuff great,
                                                                      So i desided to do this noisy steamer, and holy smokes, I can't
                                                                      believe how sweet thing runs, quite, smooth, better then new IHC
                                                                      steam or close to it.
                                                                      I even have a Old bachmann diesel thing from who knows back when, and
                                                                      it runs a ton better and less noisey...

                                                                      But now for the question, this one 4-6-2 that oiling up didn't help,
                                                                      the brushes look ok and the commitator so don't appear to be burned
                                                                      up, is this just a worn out or weak motor why this don't run worth a
                                                                      hoot?

                                                                      Larry
                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8607 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                      Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
                                                                      It sounds like the motor may have a bad commutator section.  Those with more experience can help with that.  Motors are one place where modern is better (if you get a decent motor)

                                                                      Willard


                                                                      At 08:15 PM 2/9/2009, you wrote:
                                                                      Hey Guys,
                                                                      Ok here goes,
                                                                      I went to the LHS the other day, picked up some wrong paint,
                                                                      grrrrrrr and few detail parts and a much needed and forgot to get the
                                                                      last time, oil...
                                                                      Labell medium oil,
                                                                      So anyway, I have two 4-6-2 Mantua steam engines,
                                                                      Forst one I got, runs real cruddy, not to good in reverse or not like
                                                                      a full power engine should but not bad, but forword
                                                                      it is really weak and then stops after a short time,
                                                                      The other, same exact model, ran great, but man was it noisey,
                                                                      So, after I got my oil n things, I've been going through and giving
                                                                      all my motive power a shot of oil where it needs, this is stuff great,
                                                                      So i desided to do this noisy steamer, and holy smokes, I can't
                                                                      believe how sweet thing runs, quite, smooth, better then new IHC
                                                                      steam or close to it.
                                                                      I even have a Old bachmann diesel thing from who knows back when, and
                                                                      it runs a ton better and less noisey...

                                                                      But now for the question, this one 4-6-2 that oiling up didn't help,
                                                                      the brushes look ok and the commitator so don't appear to be burned
                                                                      up, is this just a worn out or weak motor why this don't run worth a
                                                                      hoot?

                                                                      Larry



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                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8608 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                      Subject: Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                      Chris,

                                                                      That is really something.  Could you have just colored the 4” section below the train and left the other walls the blue?  That might be a better representation of where I am going.  I realize I have not put in the horizon lines either at this point.  Most interesting exercise.  Thanks.

                                                                       

                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                       

                                                                      From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                      Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 9:53 AM
                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                      Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                       

                                                                      two more cents, using photoshop.   I was surprised by how two or three bands of flat black seemed to jump out more than I expected, compared to dark gray and other muted hues.   I am building a 2 and 1/2 deck layout around the walls of a large family room right now, I always expected to use flat black, but this discussion and this photo shop exercise now has me leaning towards a medium dark very muted green, for the simple reason that it appears to me at least slightly plausible to the eye as multiple grades of an actual landscape, separated by steep planes of vegetation.  I know it's not really plausible, but I was surprised how normal it looked to my eye compared to all the other choices.

                                                                      Chris B. 

                                                                       

                                                                      From: nvrr49 <nvrr49@yahoo. com>
                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                      Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 8:20:49 AM
                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                      A lot more diversity in opinions than I would have guessed, so I will
                                                                      throw in my two cents. What do the professional diorama builders, for
                                                                      instance, at a museum around their large displays...Flat Black. It
                                                                      disappears, the eye's drawn to the light, or in this case, the layout,
                                                                      where you want them.

                                                                       
                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8609 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                      Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                      From: "Larry" <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                      Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 7:15 PM
                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Steam Rave and a question


                                                                      > Hey Guys,
                                                                      > Ok here goes,
                                                                      > I went to the LHS the other day, picked up some wrong paint,
                                                                      > grrrrrrr and few detail parts and a much needed and forgot to get the
                                                                      > last time, oil...
                                                                      > Labell medium oil,
                                                                      > So anyway, I have two 4-6-2 Mantua steam engines,
                                                                      > Forst one I got, runs real cruddy, not to good in reverse or not like
                                                                      > a full power engine should but not bad, but forword
                                                                      > it is really weak and then stops after a short time,
                                                                      > The other, same exact model, ran great, but man was it noisey,
                                                                      > So, after I got my oil n things, I've been going through and giving
                                                                      > all my motive power a shot of oil where it needs, this is stuff great,
                                                                      > So i desided to do this noisy steamer, and holy smokes, I can't
                                                                      > believe how sweet thing runs, quite, smooth, better then new IHC
                                                                      > steam or close to it.
                                                                      > I even have a Old bachmann diesel thing from who knows back when, and
                                                                      > it runs a ton better and less noisey...
                                                                      >
                                                                      > But now for the question, this one 4-6-2 that oiling up didn't help,
                                                                      > the brushes look ok and the commitator so don't appear to be burned
                                                                      > up, is this just a worn out or weak motor why this don't run worth a
                                                                      > hoot?
                                                                      >
                                                                      > Larry

                                                                      Is there any back & forth play in the motor shaft when you reverse it? Slop
                                                                      in the system as the armature shifts back & forth can cause the worm/drive
                                                                      gear alignment to change in one direction or the other, causing it to run
                                                                      better one way or the other. You can put shims on the motor shaft if this
                                                                      is what's happening.

                                                                      The other thing could be the motor magnet is weak. There are places that
                                                                      remagnetize motors (back when I was in slot cars mumble mumble years ago, I
                                                                      even recall a remagnetizer you could build yourself, because the motors
                                                                      always needed to be remagnitized after we rewound them for more rpm's).
                                                                      Check if there's a hobby shop around that still does the electric slot car
                                                                      thing.

                                                                      Don

                                                                      Don Dellmann
                                                                      don.dellmann@...
                                                                      http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                      http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                      Owner
                                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8610 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                      Subject: Photo attachments
                                                                      You may recall a month or so ago it was announced that Yahoo was planning on
                                                                      bringing back the archiving of photos feature so those who do not get daily
                                                                      emails could still see photo attachments by going to the group website and
                                                                      looking at the messages online.

                                                                      Today they announced the Beta version as being available for testing, so I
                                                                      signed up both groups. They couldn't tell me when it will actually start,
                                                                      but it should be shortly. I will keep you posted, and anyone who notices
                                                                      any problems, please let me know.

                                                                      Don

                                                                      Don Dellmann
                                                                      don.dellmann@...
                                                                      http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                      http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                      Owner
                                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8611 From: Larry Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                      Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
                                                                      Yeah Don, this has a bunch of slop in it,
                                                                      I did move "think it was the MDC" motor and helped it a ton, but this
                                                                      one, I don't know...
                                                                      I do the slot car thing, not sure if anyone around here is doing the
                                                                      1/24 stuff or not, spose to be some HO guys that doa round robin type
                                                                      club,

                                                                      I'll look into this a little deeper after supper, maybe one of the
                                                                      bagged motors "look new to me" might even be spares the guy had.

                                                                      one more thing, is 15 bucks to much for the side rod assemblys for
                                                                      this mantua to much, already together....

                                                                      Larry


                                                                      > >
                                                                      > > Larry
                                                                      >
                                                                      > Is there any back & forth play in the motor shaft when you reverse
                                                                      it? Slop
                                                                      > in the system as the armature shifts back & forth can cause the
                                                                      worm/drive
                                                                      > gear alignment to change in one direction or the other, causing it
                                                                      to run
                                                                      > better one way or the other. You can put shims on the motor shaft
                                                                      if this
                                                                      > is what's happening.
                                                                      >
                                                                      > The other thing could be the motor magnet is weak. There are
                                                                      places that
                                                                      > remagnetize motors (back when I was in slot cars mumble mumble
                                                                      years ago, I
                                                                      > even recall a remagnetizer you could build yourself, because the
                                                                      motors
                                                                      > always needed to be remagnitized after we rewound them for more
                                                                      rpm's).
                                                                      > Check if there's a hobby shop around that still does the electric
                                                                      slot car
                                                                      > thing.
                                                                      >
                                                                      > Don
                                                                      >
                                                                      > Don Dellmann
                                                                      > don.dellmann@...
                                                                      > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                      > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                      > Owner
                                                                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                      >
                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8612 From: Chris B Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                      Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                        something like these?

                                                                        From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                        Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 8:41:48 PM
                                                                        Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                        Chris,

                                                                        That is really something.  Could you have just colored the 4” section below the train and left the other walls the blue?  That might be a better representation of where I am going.  I realize I have not put in the horizon lines either at this point.  Most interesting exercise.  Thanks.

                                                                         

                                                                        Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

                                                                         

                                                                        From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                        Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 9:53 AM
                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                        Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                         

                                                                        two more cents, using photoshop.   I was surprised by how two or three bands of flat black seemed to jump out more than I expected, compared to dark gray and other muted hues.   I am building a 2 and 1/2 deck layout around the walls of a large family room right now, I always expected to use flat black, but this discussion and this photo shop exercise now has me leaning towards a medium dark very muted green, for the simple reason that it appears to me at least slightly plausible to the eye as multiple grades of an actual landscape, separated by steep planes of vegetation.  I know it's not really plausible, but I was surprised how normal it looked to my eye compared to all the other choices.

                                                                        Chris B. 

                                                                         

                                                                        From: nvrr49 <nvrr49@yahoo. com>
                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                        Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 8:20:49 AM
                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                        A lot more diversity in opinions than I would have guessed, so I will
                                                                        throw in my two cents. What do the professional diorama builders, for
                                                                        instance, at a museum around their large displays...Flat Black. It
                                                                        disappears, the eye's drawn to the light, or in this case, the layout,
                                                                        where you want them.

                                                                         
                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8613 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                        Subject: Mantua Steam Running Question
                                                                        If I could see and handle the loco, I could probably get  it running. They're sweet runners when working right.
                                                                         
                                                                        Problema I have had/seen with them(and some others):
                                                                         
                                                                        Gear misalignment - has  just been mentioned
                                                                         
                                                                        Weak motor magnets - same
                                                                         
                                                                        Quartering off - replace or requarter drivers(I usually replace them)
                                                                         
                                                                        Rods or valve gear binding - re-align, check bushings, check for proper bolts/screws on rods, bent parts, misalignment in general. All should move freely
                                                                         
                                                                        Commutator dirty(the most common after lubrication): I use a drop of head cleaner or *very* thin oil(such as musical instrument valve oil - CRC 5-56 if you can find it[auto parts store]) and with the motor running, usually still in the engine, apply very sparingly - part of a drop will do it. Half to full voltage. It may just come alive and run like new. Watch for black on your hands, on your face and (hopefully not) in your eyes. So, wear glasses...
                                                                         
                                                                        Lubrication - include medium oil for motor bearings, plactic-safe grease for gears and axle bearings(steam only) and medium or light for valvegear(if any) and piston pins if necessary - although piston pins sholdn't need it.
                                                                         
                                                                        Electrical - check wipers, insulated drivers and other wheels in correct orientation.
                                                                         
                                                                        Best luck!
                                                                         
                                                                        Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8614 From: Gerald Garteiser Date: 2/9/2009
                                                                        Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question

                                                                        Also, look at the “fore-aft” play of the motor shaft.  If you take it apart to remagnitize, shim the shaft to reduce the play in it.

                                                                         

                                                                        No, $15 is about the going rate for assembled valve gear for Mantua locos.   Jerry Garteiser

                                                                         

                                                                        From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry
                                                                        Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 7:56 PM
                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question

                                                                         

                                                                        Yeah Don, this has a bunch of slop in it,
                                                                        I did move "think it was the MDC" motor and helped it a ton, but this
                                                                        one, I don't know...
                                                                        I do the slot car thing, not sure if anyone around here is doing the
                                                                        1/24 stuff or not, spose to be some HO guys that doa round robin type
                                                                        club,

                                                                        I'll look into this a little deeper after supper, maybe one of the
                                                                        bagged motors "look new to me" might even be spares the guy had.

                                                                        one more thing, is 15 bucks to much for the side rod assemblys for
                                                                        this mantua to much, already together....

                                                                        Larry

                                                                        > >
                                                                        > > Larry
                                                                        >
                                                                        > Is there any back & forth play in the motor shaft when you reverse
                                                                        it? Slop
                                                                        > in the system as the armature shifts back & forth can cause the
                                                                        worm/drive
                                                                        > gear alignment to change in one direction or the other, causing it
                                                                        to run
                                                                        > better one way or the other. You can put shims on the motor shaft
                                                                        if this
                                                                        > is what's happening.
                                                                        >
                                                                        > The other thing could be the motor magnet is weak. There are
                                                                        places that
                                                                        > remagnetize motors (back when I was in slot cars mumble mumble
                                                                        years ago, I
                                                                        > even recall a remagnetizer you could build yourself, because the
                                                                        motors
                                                                        > always needed to be remagnitized after we rewound them for more
                                                                        rpm's).
                                                                        > Check if there's a hobby shop around that still does the electric
                                                                        slot car
                                                                        > thing.
                                                                        >
                                                                        > Don
                                                                        >
                                                                        > Don Dellmann
                                                                        > don.dellmann@...
                                                                        > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                        > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                        > Owner
                                                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                        >
                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8615 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                        Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Running Question
                                                                        A big improvement in operation after the list below is checked, is to treat the electrical contact points with a fluid like tuner cleaner. It makes those raw spots like where the tender trucks mount into the cast frame, act like you have gold-plated electrical contacts instead of raw zamak.

                                                                        Once you have tuned all the mechanicals, treat the electrical contacts including under the motor and you'll think you have a Kato-factory product when you run the model.

                                                                        Best to ya,
                                                                        Mike Bauers
                                                                        Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                        On Feb 9, 2009, at 8:30 PM, Fred Hultberg wrote:

                                                                        If I could see and handle the loco, I could probably get  it running. They're sweet runners when working right.
                                                                         
                                                                        Problema I have had/seen with them(and some others):
                                                                         
                                                                        Gear misalignment - has  just been mentioned
                                                                         
                                                                        Weak motor magnets - same
                                                                         
                                                                        Quartering off - replace or requarter drivers(I usually replace them)
                                                                         
                                                                        Rods or valve gear binding - re-align, check bushings, check for proper bolts/screws on rods, bent parts, misalignment in general. All should move freely
                                                                         
                                                                        Commutator dirty(the most common after lubrication): I use a drop of head cleaner or *very* thin oil(such as musical instrument valve oil - CRC 5-56 if you can find it[auto parts store]) and with the motor running, usually still in the engine, apply very sparingly - part of a drop will do it. Half to full voltage. It may just come alive and run like new. Watch for black on your hands, on your face and (hopefully not) in your eyes. So, wear glasses...
                                                                         
                                                                        Lubrication - include medium oil for motor bearings, plactic-safe grease for gears and axle bearings(steam only) and medium or light for valvegear(if any) and piston pins if necessary - although piston pins sholdn't need it.
                                                                         
                                                                        Electrical - check wipers, insulated drivers and other wheels in correct orientation.
                                                                         
                                                                        Best luck!
                                                                         
                                                                        Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8616 From: nvrr49 Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                        Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                        Some excellent points brought up by all. When you think about the flat
                                                                        black around a display in a museum, the museum is dimly lit, and only
                                                                        the display is lighted. The flat black becomes an easy choice then,
                                                                        but you have to go with what you like and what fits your situation. I
                                                                        find this discusion very interesting.
                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8617 From: oljoeoh Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                        Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
                                                                        Have you lightly oiled the front and rear bearings on
                                                                        the motor?
                                                                        Joe O'Loughlin

                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" <larry_l_doub@...> wrote:
                                                                        >
                                                                        > Hey Guys,
                                                                        > Ok here goes,
                                                                        > I went to the LHS the other day, picked up some wrong paint,
                                                                        > grrrrrrr and few detail parts and a much needed and forgot to get the
                                                                        > last time, oil...
                                                                        > Labell medium oil,
                                                                        > So anyway, I have two 4-6-2 Mantua steam engines,
                                                                        > Forst one I got, runs real cruddy, not to good in reverse or not like
                                                                        > a full power engine should but not bad, but forword
                                                                        > it is really weak and then stops after a short time,
                                                                        > The other, same exact model, ran great, but man was it noisey,
                                                                        > So, after I got my oil n things, I've been going through and giving
                                                                        > all my motive power a shot of oil where it needs, this is stuff great,
                                                                        > So i desided to do this noisy steamer, and holy smokes, I can't
                                                                        > believe how sweet thing runs, quite, smooth, better then new IHC
                                                                        > steam or close to it.
                                                                        > I even have a Old bachmann diesel thing from who knows back when, and
                                                                        > it runs a ton better and less noisey...
                                                                        >
                                                                        > But now for the question, this one 4-6-2 that oiling up didn't help,
                                                                        > the brushes look ok and the commitator so don't appear to be burned
                                                                        > up, is this just a worn out or weak motor why this don't run worth a
                                                                        > hoot?
                                                                        >
                                                                        > Larry
                                                                        >
                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8618 From: Larry Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                        Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
                                                                        I've oiled everything, motor bearings, wheel axels, all the side rod
                                                                        moving parts n pieces, gearing, about the only thing I have Not Oiled
                                                                        is the headlight.
                                                                        I think it just needs a complete backshopping after all.

                                                                        Larry

                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote:
                                                                        >
                                                                        > Have you lightly oiled the front and rear bearings on
                                                                        > the motor?
                                                                        > Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                        >
                                                                        > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" <larry_l_doub@> wrote:
                                                                        > >
                                                                        > > Hey Guys,
                                                                        > > Ok here goes,
                                                                        > > I went to the LHS the other day, picked up some wrong paint,
                                                                        > > grrrrrrr and few detail parts and a much needed and forgot to get
                                                                        the
                                                                        > > last time, oil...
                                                                        > > Labell medium oil,
                                                                        > > So anyway, I have two 4-6-2 Mantua steam engines,
                                                                        > > Forst one I got, runs real cruddy, not to good in reverse or not
                                                                        like
                                                                        > > a full power engine should but not bad, but forword
                                                                        > > it is really weak and then stops after a short time,
                                                                        > > The other, same exact model, ran great, but man was it noisey,
                                                                        > > So, after I got my oil n things, I've been going through and
                                                                        giving
                                                                        > > all my motive power a shot of oil where it needs, this is stuff
                                                                        great,
                                                                        > > So i desided to do this noisy steamer, and holy smokes, I can't
                                                                        > > believe how sweet thing runs, quite, smooth, better then new IHC
                                                                        > > steam or close to it.
                                                                        > > I even have a Old bachmann diesel thing from who knows back when,
                                                                        and
                                                                        > > it runs a ton better and less noisey...
                                                                        > >
                                                                        > > But now for the question, this one 4-6-2 that oiling up didn't
                                                                        help,
                                                                        > > the brushes look ok and the commitator so don't appear to be
                                                                        burned
                                                                        > > up, is this just a worn out or weak motor why this don't run
                                                                        worth a
                                                                        > > hoot?
                                                                        > >
                                                                        > > Larry
                                                                        > >
                                                                        >
                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8619 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                        Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
                                                                        Hi Larry,
                                                                         
                                                                        Welcome, first off!
                                                                         
                                                                        Sorry if I repeat anything anyone else has stated here. I did not catch the entire discussion.
                                                                         
                                                                        I use oil often and before every use after an extended period of time. I do not run an engine without making sure it is properly lubed. I treat them better than my car. I use grease (plastic safe and in a squeeze tube) on the internal geared parts. I prefer oils on the parts which can be accessed easily. I believe using gear grease on the many exposed axle gear promotes the collection of dirt and debis. I prefer Labelles No.s 102, 104 and 107. I think 102 and 107 are plastic safe and 104 is metal only. I am not sure I remember correctly, but I think the 102 is thicker. 104 and 107 are thin. I do lube all the moving parts and clean the electrical contacts.
                                                                         
                                                                        This is key to good operation:  I use my dremel with the wire wheel attachment to clean the driver wheels and all tender wheel contact surfaces. I also allow the dremel to spin the tender wheels at a high rate of speed, with some applied pressure which greatly improves the contact between the axle and the sideframes. (I am lazy and do not like taking apart the trucks and clean the axle ends, besides, many can not be taken apart.)
                                                                         
                                                                        I then remove the tender truck from the chassis and clean the contact between the tender truck and the chassis surfaces. I also clean the areas around the pick-up wire and tender frame. If this is all done, there should be little drop-off between the track and motor.
                                                                         
                                                                        Mantua motors are easy to remove. If all else fails, I pull the motor. I test the motor by itself. It should spin freely at a high RPM.
                                                                         
                                                                        Then I test the chassis. If it rolls freely with little resistance then I know the valve gear is not binding. I also oil all points of contact on it as well. I check the quartering and make sure it is set properly. I have found some gearing prefers to have the crank pin centered over the axle. (usually japan imports) Mantua I believe this works well for too. Bowser, penn Line and Varney require proper quartering.
                                                                         
                                                                        If the motorless chassis with valve gear does not roll freely, this will cause jerky operation.
                                                                         
                                                                        Good luck.
                                                                         
                                                                        Sean

                                                                        From: Larry <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:18:00 AM
                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question

                                                                        I've oiled everything, motor bearings, wheel axels, all the side rod
                                                                        moving parts n pieces, gearing, about the only thing I have Not Oiled
                                                                        is the headlight.
                                                                        I think it just needs a complete backshopping after all.

                                                                        Larry

                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote:
                                                                        >
                                                                        > Have you lightly oiled the front and rear bearings on
                                                                        > the motor?
                                                                        > Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                        >
                                                                        > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Larry" <larry_l_doub@ > wrote:
                                                                        > >
                                                                        > > Hey Guys,
                                                                        > > Ok here goes,
                                                                        > > I went to the LHS the other day, picked up some wrong paint,
                                                                        > > grrrrrrr and few detail parts and a much needed and forgot to get
                                                                        the
                                                                        > > last time, oil...
                                                                        > > Labell medium oil,
                                                                        > > So anyway, I have two 4-6-2 Mantua steam engines,
                                                                        > > Forst one I got, runs real cruddy, not to good in reverse or not
                                                                        like
                                                                        > > a full power engine should but not bad, but forword
                                                                        > > it is really weak and then stops after a short time,
                                                                        > > The other, same exact model, ran great, but man was it noisey,
                                                                        > > So, after I got my oil n things, I've been going through and
                                                                        giving
                                                                        > > all my motive power a shot of oil where it needs, this is stuff
                                                                        great,
                                                                        > > So i desided to do this noisy steamer, and holy smokes, I can't
                                                                        > > believe how sweet thing runs, quite, smooth, better then new IHC
                                                                        > > steam or close to it.
                                                                        > > I even have a Old bachmann diesel thing from who knows back when,
                                                                        and
                                                                        > > it runs a ton better and less noisey...
                                                                        > >
                                                                        > > But now for the question, this one 4-6-2 that oiling up didn't
                                                                        help,
                                                                        > > the brushes look ok and the commitator so don't appear to be
                                                                        burned
                                                                        > > up, is this just a worn out or weak motor why this don't run
                                                                        worth a
                                                                        > > hoot?
                                                                        > >
                                                                        > > Larry
                                                                        > >
                                                                        >
                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8620 From: Larry Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                        Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
                                                                        Thanks for all the inputs for everyone,
                                                                        the 107 Labell oil is the Medium oil "plastic safe" is
                                                                        what i currectly have, I use white lithium<sp> grease for almost all
                                                                        my locos gearings,

                                                                        This quartering thing has me a little puzzled, not quite sure what
                                                                        your meaning exactly.
                                                                        but I should add,
                                                                        if the loco is running :reverse is will go on it's own, but forword,
                                                                        it will act like it just runs out of steam, but you can push it along
                                                                        and it rolls free, just no guts to keep itself moving.
                                                                        I do the dremal thing on all my wheels as well
                                                                        "I Love My Dremal" but have not learned of the wheel spinning thing
                                                                        untell now. Probabaly tomorrow night ot Thursday I'll give this thing
                                                                        a good looking over, and deside from there,
                                                                        I hate to scrap the thing to Ebay after this other one I have runs so
                                                                        awsume, who knows, maybe a trade off is in order.

                                                                        Larry

                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                        wrote:
                                                                        >
                                                                        > Hi Larry,
                                                                        >
                                                                        > Welcome, first off!
                                                                        >
                                                                        > Sorry if I repeat anything anyone else has stated here. I did not
                                                                        catch the entire discussion.
                                                                        >
                                                                        > I use oil often and before every use after an extended period of
                                                                        time. I do not run an engine without making sure it is properly
                                                                        lubed. I treat them better than my car. I use grease (plastic safe
                                                                        and in a squeeze tube) on the internal geared parts. I prefer oils on
                                                                        the parts which can be accessed easily. I believe using gear grease
                                                                        on the many exposed axle gear promotes the collection of dirt and
                                                                        debis. I prefer Labelles No.s 102, 104 and 107. I think 102 and 107
                                                                        are plastic safe and 104 is metal only. I am not sure I remember
                                                                        correctly, but I think the 102 is thicker. 104 and 107 are thin. I do
                                                                        lube all the moving parts and clean the electrical contacts.
                                                                        >
                                                                        > This is key to good operation:  I use my dremel with the wire wheel
                                                                        attachment to clean the driver wheels and all tender wheel contact
                                                                        surfaces. I also allow the dremel to spin the tender wheels at a high
                                                                        rate of speed, with some applied pressure which greatly improves the
                                                                        contact between the axle and the sideframes. (I am lazy and do not
                                                                        like taking apart the trucks and clean the axle ends, besides, many
                                                                        can not be taken apart.)
                                                                        >
                                                                        > I then remove the tender truck from the chassis and clean the
                                                                        contact between the tender truck and the chassis surfaces. I also
                                                                        clean the areas around the pick-up wire and tender frame. If this is
                                                                        all done, there should be little drop-off between the track and
                                                                        motor.
                                                                        >
                                                                        > Mantua motors are easy to remove. If all else fails, I pull the
                                                                        motor. I test the motor by itself. It should spin freely at a high
                                                                        RPM.
                                                                        >
                                                                        > Then I test the chassis. If it rolls freely with little resistance
                                                                        then I know the valve gear is not binding. I also oil all points of
                                                                        contact on it as well. I check the quartering and make sure it is set
                                                                        properly. I have found some gearing prefers to have the crank pin
                                                                        centered over the axle. (usually japan imports) Mantua I believe this
                                                                        works well for too. Bowser, penn Line and Varney require proper
                                                                        quartering.
                                                                        >
                                                                        > If the motorless chassis with valve gear does not roll freely, this
                                                                        will cause jerky operation.
                                                                        >
                                                                        > Good luck.
                                                                        >
                                                                        > Sean
                                                                        >
                                                                        >
                                                                        >
                                                                        >
                                                                        > ________________________________
                                                                        > From: Larry <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                        > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:18:00 AM
                                                                        > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
                                                                        >
                                                                        >
                                                                        > I've oiled everything, motor bearings, wheel axels, all the side
                                                                        rod
                                                                        > moving parts n pieces, gearing, about the only thing I have Not
                                                                        Oiled
                                                                        > is the headlight.
                                                                        > I think it just needs a complete backshopping after all.
                                                                        >
                                                                        > Larry
                                                                        >
                                                                        > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@> wrote:
                                                                        > >
                                                                        > > Have you lightly oiled the front and rear bearings on
                                                                        > > the motor?
                                                                        > > Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                        > >
                                                                        > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Larry" <larry_l_doub@ > wrote:
                                                                        > > >
                                                                        > > > Hey Guys,
                                                                        > > > Ok here goes,
                                                                        > > > I went to the LHS the other day, picked up some wrong paint,
                                                                        > > > grrrrrrr and few detail parts and a much needed and forgot to
                                                                        get
                                                                        > the
                                                                        > > > last time, oil...
                                                                        > > > Labell medium oil,
                                                                        > > > So anyway, I have two 4-6-2 Mantua steam engines,
                                                                        > > > Forst one I got, runs real cruddy, not to good in reverse or
                                                                        not
                                                                        > like
                                                                        > > > a full power engine should but not bad, but forword
                                                                        > > > it is really weak and then stops after a short time,
                                                                        > > > The other, same exact model, ran great, but man was it noisey,
                                                                        > > > So, after I got my oil n things, I've been going through and
                                                                        > giving
                                                                        > > > all my motive power a shot of oil where it needs, this is stuff
                                                                        > great,
                                                                        > > > So i desided to do this noisy steamer, and holy smokes, I can't
                                                                        > > > believe how sweet thing runs, quite, smooth, better then new
                                                                        IHC
                                                                        > > > steam or close to it.
                                                                        > > > I even have a Old bachmann diesel thing from who knows back
                                                                        when,
                                                                        > and
                                                                        > > > it runs a ton better and less noisey...
                                                                        > > >
                                                                        > > > But now for the question, this one 4-6-2 that oiling up didn't
                                                                        > help,
                                                                        > > > the brushes look ok and the commitator so don't appear to be
                                                                        > burned
                                                                        > > > up, is this just a worn out or weak motor why this don't run
                                                                        > worth a
                                                                        > > > hoot?
                                                                        > > >
                                                                        > > > Larry
                                                                        > > >
                                                                        > >
                                                                        >
                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8621 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                        Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
                                                                        Check to see if the motor brushes make good contact.  If you pull the brush out from the commutator and release it, it should give a soft click when it snaps back into position. Check the commutator to see if it is clean and shiny.  Check the brush and brush spring area to see if they are clean and shiny...  If any of these areas are not clean and shiny they need to be polished to bright finish.  You might even need to adjust more tension on the brush springs.  Is the worm on the motor or does it have a gearbox where the worm is separate from the motor?

                                                                        Check the mechanism to make sure it does not bind.  Remove the motor (And gear box if it has one) and roll the wheels by hand making sure they roll freely through the complete revolution.  Make sure all crankpins are in proper position and are tight.  If there is any bind, check the valve gear to make sure it is properly set and aligned including the cross heads and piston holes in the steam cylinders.  Straighten any bent pieces looking at the good running loco to get the proper condition before making any changes.

                                                                        If there is no bind and it turns freely, replace the motor and run the mechanism with grease on the worm/gear and oil on the front and rear motor bearings.  If the motor runs sluggishly, lay a finger on it to see if it is heating up to be too hot to hold.  If it gets too hot to hold, the magnet is weak and it would be best to get a new motor.  Use only a drop of oil on the motor bearings.  Too much will create other problems.

                                                                        If there is too much back and forth travel in the motor shaft between bearings you can make a temporary washer from a piece of brass wire and bend it around the shaft to see if it improves the performance.  If it runs better in reverse, put the shim between the front motor bearing and the front of the armature.  Hopefully there might be a washer already there, if so, put the new shim between the washer and the motor frame.

                                                                        Between all of us we have covered all of the things that can be done.  If you do not know how to do all of these tasks, get someone to help you the first time.

                                                                        Assembled valve gear can be a source of binding.  If you ever assemble a set yourself you will find it tedious and time consuming.  If the assembled set moves freely it is well worth $15.00 or more.

                                                                        Don in VA
                                                                        ===============================================

                                                                        Larry wrote:

                                                                        Hey Guys,
                                                                        Ok here goes,
                                                                        I went to the LHS the other day, picked up some wrong paint,
                                                                        grrrrrrr and few detail parts and a much needed and forgot to get the
                                                                        last time, oil...
                                                                        Labell medium oil,
                                                                        So anyway, I have two 4-6-2 Mantua steam engines,
                                                                        Forst one I got, runs real cruddy, not to good in reverse or not like
                                                                        a full power engine should but not bad, but forword
                                                                        it is really weak and then stops after a short time,
                                                                        The other, same exact model, ran great, but man was it noisey,
                                                                        So, after I got my oil n things, I've been going through and giving
                                                                        all my motive power a shot of oil where it needs, this is stuff great,
                                                                        So i desided to do this noisy steamer, and holy smokes, I can't
                                                                        believe how sweet thing runs, quite, smooth, better then new IHC
                                                                        steam or close to it.
                                                                        I even have a Old bachmann diesel thing from who knows back when, and
                                                                        it runs a ton better and less noisey...

                                                                        But now for the question, this one 4-6-2 that oiling up didn't help,
                                                                        the brushes look ok and the commitator so don't appear to be burned
                                                                        up, is this just a worn out or weak motor why this don't run worth a
                                                                        hoot?

                                                                        Larry
                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8622 From: Gerald Garteiser Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                        Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question

                                                                        I would suggest you disconnect the tender, remove the motor completely,  and then put the complete chassis on a straight piece of track;  and check for binds as you roll it along said track.  If there are no binds, then you can assume either an alignment/gear mesh problem, or the motor itself.  Get the running gear to turn freely before you reinstall the motor.

                                                                         

                                                                        Also (again checking the running gear)-hold one of the drivers from moving, and with your other hand turn the adjacent driver-it should have a very small movement.  If it moves as much as 1/8 of a turn, the rods have too sloppy a hole (wear) and should be replaced.  Typically, this would show up as a bind in the step above.

                                                                         

                                                                        Most Mantua engines are very sturdy, and (unless someone played soccer with it and/or should have never had a train to begin with), should be repairable.  The nice part about these is that they are really easy to disassemble and reassemble.  Also, all the mechanical parts are available to completely restore one.  JerryG

                                                                         

                                                                        From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry
                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:18 AM
                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question

                                                                         

                                                                        I've oiled everything, motor bearings, wheel axels, all the side rod
                                                                        moving parts n pieces, gearing, about the only thing I have Not Oiled
                                                                        is the headlight.
                                                                        I think it just needs a complete backshopping after all.

                                                                        Larry

                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote:

                                                                        >
                                                                        > Have you lightly oiled the front and rear bearings on
                                                                        > the motor?
                                                                        > Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                        >
                                                                        > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com,
                                                                        "Larry" <larry_l_doub@> wrote:
                                                                        > >
                                                                        > > Hey Guys,
                                                                        > > Ok here goes,
                                                                        > > I went to the LHS the other day, picked up some wrong paint,
                                                                        > > grrrrrrr and few detail parts and a much needed and forgot to get
                                                                        the
                                                                        > > last time, oil...
                                                                        > > Labell medium oil,
                                                                        > > So anyway, I have two 4-6-2 Mantua steam engines,
                                                                        > > Forst one I got, runs real cruddy, not to good in reverse or not
                                                                        like
                                                                        > > a full power engine should but not bad, but forword
                                                                        > > it is really weak and then stops after a short time,
                                                                        > > The other, same exact model, ran great, but man was it noisey,
                                                                        > > So, after I got my oil n things, I've been going through and
                                                                        giving
                                                                        > > all my motive power a shot of oil where it needs, this is stuff
                                                                        great,
                                                                        > > So i desided to do this noisy steamer, and holy smokes, I can't
                                                                        > > believe how sweet thing runs, quite, smooth, better then new IHC
                                                                        > > steam or close to it.
                                                                        > > I even have a Old bachmann diesel thing from who knows back when,
                                                                        and
                                                                        > > it runs a ton better and less noisey...
                                                                        > >
                                                                        > > But now for the question, this one 4-6-2 that oiling up didn't
                                                                        help,
                                                                        > > the brushes look ok and the commitator so don't appear to be
                                                                        burned
                                                                        > > up, is this just a worn out or weak motor why this don't run
                                                                        worth a
                                                                        > > hoot?
                                                                        > >
                                                                        > > Larry
                                                                        > >
                                                                        >
                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8623 From: Jack Priller Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                        Subject: 4 Sale
                                                                        Recently acquired [via swap], a fair size box of
                                                                        assorted "stuff". After `harvesting' the items I actually have a
                                                                        use for, the following are available for semi-reasonable offer(s).

                                                                        E-7 Diesel by "hobbytown of Boston"
                                                                        Die-cast in original box, amateurish yellow paint job, with
                                                                        original instructions but sans couplers

                                                                        Mantua Booster
                                                                        Die-cast in original box, amateurish yellow paint job, valve
                                                                        gear loose in box but missing the mounting screws, working die-cast
                                                                        coupler on rear only.

                                                                        Globe AB pair
                                                                        Both built-up plastic kit dummies, UP yellow paint #1468 &
                                                                        1468b, die-cast dummy knuckle couplers both ends of both units.

                                                                        Ulrich Box car
                                                                        Built up metal kit #108, D&RGW, working die-cast couplers
                                                                        both ends. The brake-wheel is loose, but in the original box.

                                                                        Ulrich Flat car
                                                                        Built up metal kit #110, T&P, working die-cast couplers both ends,
                                                                        in the original box..

                                                                        Athearn Pulpwood car
                                                                        Built-up metal kit # A 607, KCS, dummy die-cast knuckle one
                                                                        end, working die-cast knuckle on the other, with original RED box.
                                                                        [Due to length with the couplers, I'll have to pack the box and the
                                                                        car as two items.]

                                                                        Athearn Tank car
                                                                        Built-up metal kit # A 510, Shell, dummy die-cast knuckles,
                                                                        in original RED box.

                                                                        Athearn Tank car
                                                                        Built-up metal kit # A 501 Shorty, Co-op, dummy die-cast
                                                                        knuckles, in original RED box.

                                                                        All the boxes are in fair condition at best, with shelf-
                                                                        wear, and some have price, etc. markings on them in crayon/ink.
                                                                        Worst of the lot is the Ulrich flat box, which has one corner of the
                                                                        top torn. There will be no extra charge for the authentic RUST on
                                                                        the CO-OP tank or D&RGW box cars. Not a lot of rust, but there is
                                                                        some there. Hope to have [better than eBay average] quality pix
                                                                        taken and posted later today.

                                                                        Jack Priller
                                                                        El Paso, TX
                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8624 From: Chris B Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                        Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                          Don, thanks, I'm hoping to get that look, it's just an extra puzzle to do it on a multi deck layout that has a visible connection btw the two levels. 

                                                                          Single graphic attached with layout details.  This layout is an attempt to model the W&OD Rosslyn Branch from the Yard to Bluemont Jct. 
                                                                          Benchwork mostly completed; still have to build and install hidden staging benchwork. I'm just starting to construct modules that will sit on the open grid deck and hold scenery and track (revell and suydam vintage structures & tru scale track, turnouts, and crossovers).

                                                                          I have successfully laid temporary track and run hobbytown switchers (and other vintage gear) out of the Rosslyn Yard area on the bottom level, around and up to the center peninsula (Bluemont Jct), and across a temporary lift out bridge and around the upper deck to where the track to Falls Church will disappear through the wall to staging. 

                                                                          Chris

                                                                          ________________________________
                                                                          From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                          Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 5:25:52 PM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be


                                                                          Tru-Scale track and turnouts, Wow, that would look good.  A valence above to block light from eyes of viewers and cabinets, shelves, curtains or scenery part way or all the way to floor ala, John's G&D were all used in those days.

                                                                          Don in VA
                                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= ======

                                                                          Chris B wrote:

                                                                          This would seem to be a question that would apply universally to all layouts, but since this is the vintage group, I'll ask the vintage question.  I've got hopes of using vintage structures and tru scale track and turnouts on my under construction layout, and running vintage metal cars pulled by diecast switchers with hobbytown drives.In terms of vintage layouts, especially the early multi-deck layouts, would any group members care to offer suggestions on what would look "right" for fascia and valance treatments, from a vintage perspective?
                                                                          what was commonly used when die cast engines were the norm?
                                                                          Chris B.





                                                                          ________________________________
                                                                          From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                          Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 5:25:52 PM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be


                                                                          Tru-Scale track and turnouts, Wow, that would look good.  A valence above to block light from eyes of viewers and cabinets, shelves, curtains or scenery part way or all the way to floor ala, John's G&D were all used in those days.

                                                                          Don in VA
                                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= ======

                                                                          Chris B wrote:

                                                                          This would seem to be a question that would apply universally to all layouts, but since this is the vintage group, I'll ask the vintage question. 

                                                                          I've got hopes of using vintage structures and tru scale track and turnouts on my under construction layout, and running vintage metal cars pulled by diecast switchers with hobbytown drives.

                                                                          In terms of vintage layouts, especially the early multi-deck layouts, would any group members care to offer suggestions on what would look "right" for fascia and valance treatments, from a vintage perspective?

                                                                          what was commonly used when die cast engines were the norm?

                                                                          Chris B.

                                                                          ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                          From: "ckinzer@att. net" <ckinzer@att. net>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8625 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                          Where are you located?
                                                                          Don in VA
                                                                          ==============================================

                                                                          Chris B wrote:


                                                                          Don, thanks, I'm hoping to get that look, it's just an extra puzzle to do it on a multi deck layout that has a visible connection btw the two levels. 

                                                                          Single graphic attached with layout details.  This layout is an attempt to model the W&OD Rosslyn Branch from the Yard to Bluemont Jct. 
                                                                          Benchwork mostly completed; still have to build and install hidden staging benchwork. I' m just starting to construct modules that will sit on the open grid deck and hold scenery and track (revell and suydam vintage structures & tru scale track, turnouts, and crossovers).

                                                                          I have successfully laid temporary track and run hobbytown switchers (and other vintage gear) out of the Rosslyn Yard area on the bottom level, around and up to the center peninsula (Bluemont Jct), and across a temporary lift out bridge and around the upper deck to where the track to Falls Church will disappear through the wall to staging. 

                                                                          Chris

                                                                          ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                          From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@verizon. net>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                          Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 5:25:52 PM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                          Tru-Scale track and turnouts, Wow, that would look good.  A valence above to block light from eyes of viewers and cabinets, shelves, curtains or scenery part way or all the way to floor ala, John's G&D were all used in those days.

                                                                          Don in VA
                                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= ======

                                                                          Chris B wrote:

                                                                          This would seem to be a question that would apply universally to all layouts, but since this is the vintage group, I'll ask the vintage question.  I've got hopes of using vintage structures and tru scale track and turnouts on my under construction layout, and running vintage metal cars pulled by diecast switchers with hobbytown drives.In terms of vintage layouts, especially the early multi-deck layouts, would any group members care to offer suggestions on what would look "right" for fascia and valance treatments, from a vintage perspective?
                                                                          what was commonly used when die cast engines were the norm?
                                                                          Chris B.

                                                                          ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                          From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@verizon. net>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                          Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 5:25:52 PM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                          Tru-Scale track and turnouts, Wow, that would look good.  A valence above to block light from eyes of viewers and cabinets, shelves, curtains or scenery part way or all the way to floor ala, John's G&D were all used in those days.

                                                                          Don in VA
                                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= ======

                                                                          Chris B wrote:

                                                                          This would seem to be a question that would apply universally to all layouts, but since this is the vintage group, I'll ask the vintage question. 

                                                                          I've got hopes of using vintage structures and tru scale track and turnouts on my under construction layout, and running vintage metal cars pulled by diecast switchers with hobbytown drives.

                                                                          In terms of vintage layouts, especially the early multi-deck layouts, would any group members care to offer suggestions on what would look "right" for fascia and valance treatments, from a vintage perspective?

                                                                          what was commonly used when die cast engines were the norm?

                                                                          Chris B.

                                                                          ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                          From: "ckinzer@att. net" <ckinzer@att. net>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8626 From: Chris B Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: What color should the sides be
                                                                          Not that far from where the Rosslyn Branch was in Arlington.
                                                                          Chris
                                                                          From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 1:07:37 PM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                          Where are you located?
                                                                          Don in VA
                                                                          ==============================================

                                                                          Chris B wrote:


                                                                          Don, thanks, I'm hoping to get that look, it's just an extra puzzle to do it on a multi deck layout that has a visible connection btw the two levels. 

                                                                          Single graphic attached with layout details.  This layout is an attempt to model the W&OD Rosslyn Branch from the Yard to Bluemont Jct. 
                                                                          Benchwork mostly completed; still have to build and install hidden staging benchwork. I' m just starting to construct modules that will sit on the open grid deck and hold scenery and track (revell and suydam vintage structures & tru scale track, turnouts, and crossovers).

                                                                          I have successfully laid temporary track and run hobbytown switchers (and other vintage gear) out of the Rosslyn Yard area on the bottom level, around and up to the center peninsula (Bluemont Jct), and across a temporary lift out bridge and around the upper deck to where the track to Falls Church will disappear through the wall to staging. 

                                                                          Chris

                                                                          ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                          From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@verizon. net>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                          Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 5:25:52 PM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                          Tru-Scale track and turnouts, Wow, that would look good.  A valence above to block light from eyes of viewers and cabinets, shelves, curtains or scenery part way or all the way to floor ala, John's G&D were all used in those days.

                                                                          Don in VA
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8627 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Running Question
                                                                          good comments.  Where can a weak motor magnet be "recharged"?
                                                                           
                                                                          For general lubrication, where the issue of plastic safe is not a consideration (because I don't know if it is safe) I like an oil called "Tri-Flow" I get it at Ace Hardware--in a small black plastic bottle.  It has Teflon powder in it and is really good in Zamak and brass locos.  gj
                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:44 AM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Steam Running Question

                                                                          A big improvement in operation after the list below is checked, is to treat the electrical contact points with a fluid like tuner cleaner. It makes those raw spots like where the tender trucks mount into the cast frame, act like you have gold-plated electrical contacts instead of raw zamak.

                                                                          Once you have tuned all the mechanicals, treat the electrical contacts including under the motor and you'll think you have a Kato-factory product when you run the model.

                                                                          Best to ya,
                                                                          Mike Bauers
                                                                          Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                          On Feb 9, 2009, at 8:30 PM, Fred Hultberg wrote:

                                                                          If I could see and handle the loco, I could probably get  it running. They're sweet runners when working right.
                                                                           
                                                                          Problema I have had/seen with them(and some others):
                                                                           
                                                                          Gear misalignment - has  just been mentioned
                                                                           
                                                                          Weak motor magnets - same
                                                                           
                                                                          Quartering off - replace or requarter drivers(I usually replace them)
                                                                           
                                                                          Rods or valve gear binding - re-align, check bushings, check for proper bolts/screws on rods, bent parts, misalignment in general. All should move freely
                                                                           
                                                                          Commutator dirty(the most common after lubrication): I use a drop of head cleaner or *very* thin oil(such as musical instrument valve oil - CRC 5-56 if you can find it[auto parts store]) and with the motor running, usually still in the engine, apply very sparingly - part of a drop will do it. Half to full voltage. It may just come alive and run like new. Watch for black on your hands, on your face and (hopefully not) in your eyes. So, wear glasses...
                                                                           
                                                                          Lubrication - include medium oil for motor bearings, plactic-safe grease for gears and axle bearings(steam only) and medium or light for valvegear(if any) and piston pins if necessary - although piston pins sholdn't need it.
                                                                           
                                                                          Electrical - check wipers, insulated drivers and other wheels in correct orientation.
                                                                           
                                                                          Best luck!
                                                                           
                                                                          Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)


                                                                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                          Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1942 - Release Date: 02/09/09 17:40:00
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8628 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
                                                                          I don't follow what you mean "some gearing prefers to have the crank pin centered over the axle"--  gj
                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 7:06 AM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question

                                                                          Hi Larry,
                                                                           
                                                                          Welcome, first off!
                                                                           
                                                                          Sorry if I repeat anything anyone else has stated here. I did not catch the entire discussion.
                                                                           
                                                                          I use oil often and before every use after an extended period of time. I do not run an engine without making sure it is properly lubed. I treat them better than my car. I use grease (plastic safe and in a squeeze tube) on the internal geared parts. I prefer oils on the parts which can be accessed easily. I believe using gear grease on the many exposed axle gear promotes the collection of dirt and debis. I prefer Labelles No.s 102, 104 and 107. I think 102 and 107 are plastic safe and 104 is metal only. I am not sure I remember correctly, but I think the 102 is thicker. 104 and 107 are thin. I do lube all the moving parts and clean the electrical contacts.
                                                                           
                                                                          This is key to good operation:  I use my dremel with the wire wheel attachment to clean the driver wheels and all tender wheel contact surfaces. I also allow the dremel to spin the tender wheels at a high rate of speed, with some applied pressure which greatly improves the contact between the axle and the sideframes. (I am lazy and do not like taking apart the trucks and clean the axle ends, besides, many can not be taken apart.)
                                                                           
                                                                          I then remove the tender truck from the chassis and clean the contact between the tender truck and the chassis surfaces. I also clean the areas around the pick-up wire and tender frame. If this is all done, there should be little drop-off between the track and motor.
                                                                           
                                                                          Mantua motors are easy to remove. If all else fails, I pull the motor. I test the motor by itself. It should spin freely at a high RPM.
                                                                           
                                                                          Then I test the chassis. If it rolls freely with little resistance then I know the valve gear is not binding. I also oil all points of contact on it as well. I check the quartering and make sure it is set properly. I have found some gearing prefers to have the crank pin centered over the axle. (usually japan imports) Mantua I believe this works well for too. Bowser, penn Line and Varney require proper quartering.
                                                                           
                                                                          If the motorless chassis with valve gear does not roll freely, this will cause jerky operation.
                                                                           
                                                                          Good luck.
                                                                           
                                                                          Sean

                                                                          From: Larry <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:18:00 AM
                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question

                                                                          I've oiled everything, motor bearings, wheel axels, all the side rod
                                                                          moving parts n pieces, gearing, about the only thing I have Not Oiled
                                                                          is the headlight.
                                                                          I think it just needs a complete backshopping after all.

                                                                          Larry

                                                                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote:
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Have you lightly oiled the front and rear bearings on
                                                                          > the motor?
                                                                          > Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                          >
                                                                          > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Larry" <larry_l_doub@ > wrote:
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > Hey Guys,
                                                                          > > Ok here goes,
                                                                          > > I went to the LHS the other day, picked up some wrong paint,
                                                                          > > grrrrrrr and few detail parts and a much needed and forgot to get
                                                                          the
                                                                          > > last time, oil...
                                                                          > > Labell medium oil,
                                                                          > > So anyway, I have two 4-6-2 Mantua steam engines,
                                                                          > > Forst one I got, runs real cruddy, not to good in reverse or not
                                                                          like
                                                                          > > a full power engine should but not bad, but forword
                                                                          > > it is really weak and then stops after a short time,
                                                                          > > The other, same exact model, ran great, but man was it noisey,
                                                                          > > So, after I got my oil n things, I've been going through and
                                                                          giving
                                                                          > > all my motive power a shot of oil where it needs, this is stuff
                                                                          great,
                                                                          > > So i desided to do this noisy steamer, and holy smokes, I can't
                                                                          > > believe how sweet thing runs, quite, smooth, better then new IHC
                                                                          > > steam or close to it.
                                                                          > > I even have a Old bachmann diesel thing from who knows back when,
                                                                          and
                                                                          > > it runs a ton better and less noisey...
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > But now for the question, this one 4-6-2 that oiling up didn't
                                                                          help,
                                                                          > > the brushes look ok and the commitator so don't appear to be
                                                                          burned
                                                                          > > up, is this just a worn out or weak motor why this don't run
                                                                          worth a
                                                                          > > hoot?
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > Larry
                                                                          > >
                                                                          >



                                                                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                          Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1942 - Release Date: 02/09/09 17:40:00
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8629 From: prrk4s958 Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                          Subject: For Sale: MoW items
                                                                          Hello list,

                                                                          I have a trio of vintage MoW items for sale as one lot. All three
                                                                          are Truescale items from the late 1950's. I have a Work Caboose/Boom
                                                                          Car, a Bunk Car and a small Brownhoist Wrecker with manual working
                                                                          boom/hook.

                                                                          http://prrmodels.com/nov22a.JPG

                                                                          All have metal sprung trucks. Several smoke stacks are missing as well
                                                                          as a brake wheel. All easy to repair. Attached are some funky looking
                                                                          couplers but KD's can be applied easily as well. Private roadname. No
                                                                          Boxes. All three cars $30.00 plus usps shipping. Just email if
                                                                          interested.

                                                                          Thanks, Gary
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8630 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                          Yes, very much like those.  Thanks again.

                                                                          Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                           

                                                                          From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                          Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 9:22 PM
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                           

                                                                          something like these?

                                                                           

                                                                          From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@verizon. net>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                          Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 8:41:48 PM
                                                                          Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                          Chris,

                                                                          That is really something.  Could you have just colored the 4” section below the train and left the other walls the blue?  That might be a better representation of where I am going.  I realize I have not put in the horizon lines either at this point.  Most interesting exercise.  Thanks.

                                                                           
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8631 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
                                                                          Hi Glen,
                                                                           
                                                                           I miss typed. I meant to say some cranks - not pins - are centered meaning..
                                                                           
                                                                          some cranks are shorter and the rivet which attaches the crank and valve gear rod can be centered just over the center line of the axle end. This limits the movement of the valve gear, but will allow for smoth operation with no resistance. Engines with longer cranks rods, like those on Varney, Penn Line, and Bowser are too long and the crank rod and valve gear rod connecting rivet does not center over the axle. It goes past center. These engines must be quartered correctly. Mantuas have shorter crank rods allowing them to be centered. This seems to be why their drives are so dependable. They tend to only jam when one of the rods comes lose and moves off of center. These engines will function correctly if quartered correctly and seem to have a little flexibility in that regard, but if they are not centered and not quartered correctly, they do jam and inhibit smoth operation.
                                                                           
                                                                          If you need me to post a picture of what I mean by centering the crank rod rivet over the axle, I can take one. As for quartering, I think I am using the term correctly...
                                                                           
                                                                          This link might help explain more:
                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                          Sean

                                                                          From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 1:52:08 PM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question

                                                                          I don't follow what you mean "some gearing prefers to have the crank pin centered over the axle"--  gj
                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 7:06 AM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question

                                                                          Hi Larry,
                                                                           
                                                                          Welcome, first off!
                                                                           
                                                                          Sorry if I repeat anything anyone else has stated here. I did not catch the entire discussion.
                                                                           
                                                                          I use oil often and before every use after an extended period of time. I do not run an engine without making sure it is properly lubed. I treat them better than my car. I use grease (plastic safe and in a squeeze tube) on the internal geared parts. I prefer oils on the parts which can be accessed easily. I believe using gear grease on the many exposed axle gear promotes the collection of dirt and debis. I prefer Labelles No.s 102, 104 and 107. I think 102 and 107 are plastic safe and 104 is metal only. I am not sure I remember correctly, but I think the 102 is thicker. 104 and 107 are thin. I do lube all the moving parts and clean the electrical contacts.
                                                                           
                                                                          This is key to good operation:  I use my dremel with the wire wheel attachment to clean the driver wheels and all tender wheel contact surfaces. I also allow the dremel to spin the tender wheels at a high rate of speed, with some applied pressure which greatly improves the contact between the axle and the sideframes. (I am lazy and do not like taking apart the trucks and clean the axle ends, besides, many can not be taken apart.)
                                                                           
                                                                          I then remove the tender truck from the chassis and clean the contact between the tender truck and the chassis surfaces. I also clean the areas around the pick-up wire and tender frame. If this is all done, there should be little drop-off between the track and motor.
                                                                           
                                                                          Mantua motors are easy to remove. If all else fails, I pull the motor. I test the motor by itself. It should spin freely at a high RPM.
                                                                           
                                                                          Then I test the chassis. If it rolls freely with little resistance then I know the valve gear is not binding. I also oil all points of contact on it as well. I check the quartering and make sure it is set properly. I have found some gearing prefers to have the crank pin centered over the axle. (usually japan imports) Mantua I believe this works well for too. Bowser, penn Line and Varney require proper quartering.
                                                                           
                                                                          If the motorless chassis with valve gear does not roll freely, this will cause jerky operation.
                                                                           
                                                                          Good luck.
                                                                           
                                                                          Sean

                                                                          From: Larry <larry_l_doub@ yahoo.com>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:18:00 AM
                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question

                                                                          I've oiled everything, motor bearings, wheel axels, all the side rod
                                                                          moving parts n pieces, gearing, about the only thing I have Not Oiled
                                                                          is the headlight.
                                                                          I think it just needs a complete backshopping after all.

                                                                          Larry

                                                                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote:
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Have you lightly oiled the front and rear bearings on
                                                                          > the motor?
                                                                          > Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                          >
                                                                          > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Larry" <larry_l_doub@ > wrote:
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > Hey Guys,
                                                                          > > Ok here goes,
                                                                          > > I went to the LHS the other day, picked up some wrong paint,
                                                                          > > grrrrrrr and few detail parts and a much needed and forgot to get
                                                                          the
                                                                          > > last time, oil...
                                                                          > > Labell medium oil,
                                                                          > > So anyway, I have two 4-6-2 Mantua steam engines,
                                                                          > > Forst one I got, runs real cruddy, not to good in reverse or not
                                                                          like
                                                                          > > a full power engine should but not bad, but forword
                                                                          > > it is really weak and then stops after a short time,
                                                                          > > The other, same exact model, ran great, but man was it noisey,
                                                                          > > So, after I got my oil n things, I've been going through and
                                                                          giving
                                                                          > > all my motive power a shot of oil where it needs, this is stuff
                                                                          great,
                                                                          > > So i desided to do this noisy steamer, and holy smokes, I can't
                                                                          > > believe how sweet thing runs, quite, smooth, better then new IHC
                                                                          > > steam or close to it.
                                                                          > > I even have a Old bachmann diesel thing from who knows back when,
                                                                          and
                                                                          > > it runs a ton better and less noisey...
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > But now for the question, this one 4-6-2 that oiling up didn't
                                                                          help,
                                                                          > > the brushes look ok and the commitator so don't appear to be
                                                                          burned
                                                                          > > up, is this just a worn out or weak motor why this don't run
                                                                          worth a
                                                                          > > hoot?
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > Larry
                                                                          > >
                                                                          >



                                                                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                          Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1942 - Release Date: 02/09/09 17:40:00
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8632 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                          Chris,

                                                                          Nice graphics, it should be a nice railroad to run.  Especially with the vintage components, that will add to it. 

                                                                           

                                                                          Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                           

                                                                          From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 12:48 PM
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                           


                                                                          Don, thanks, I'm hoping to get that look, it's just an extra puzzle to do it on a multi deck layout that has a visible connection btw the two levels. 

                                                                          Single graphic attached with layout details.  This layout is an attempt to model the W&OD Rosslyn Branch from the Yard to Bluemont Jct. 
                                                                          Benchwork mostly completed; still have to build and install hidden staging benchwork. I' m just starting to construct modules that will sit on the open grid deck and hold scenery and track (revell and suydam vintage structures & tru scale track, turnouts, and crossovers).

                                                                          I have successfully laid temporary track and run hobbytown switchers (and other vintage gear) out of the Rosslyn Yard area on the bottom level, around and up to the center peninsula (Bluemont Jct), and across a temporary lift out bridge and around the upper deck to where the track to Falls Church will disappear through the wall to staging. 

                                                                          Chris
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8633 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                          Hi Chuck,

                                                                          Thanks for all of the great links.  I will be studying them in the future also.

                                                                          Take care,

                                                                           

                                                                          Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                           

                                                                          From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of ckinzer@...
                                                                          Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 1:42 PM
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                          Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Re: What color should the sides be

                                                                           

                                                                          Black may be done a lot.  But I don't think it is at all universal.  

                                                                           
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8634 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
                                                                          OK--I understand now what you meant--I have done some that way myself on occasion--including a $1200 brass On3 Mikado that had the hangers for the Walschaerts valve gear mounted wrong--such that if the eccentrics were angled as proper, the link jammed against the hanger--when the crank pin on the eccentric crank was aligned as you describe, it ran.  Took me an hour to get it running right.  Needless to say, I got the loco VERY cheap because of the problem..  gj
                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:28 PM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question

                                                                          Hi Glen,
                                                                           
                                                                           I miss typed. I meant to say some cranks - not pins - are centered meaning..
                                                                           
                                                                          some cranks are shorter and the rivet which attaches the crank and valve gear rod can be centered just over the center line of the axle end. This limits the movement of the valve gear, but will allow for smoth operation with no resistance. Engines with longer cranks rods, like those on Varney, Penn Line, and Bowser are too long and the crank rod and valve gear rod connecting rivet does not center over the axle. It goes past center. These engines must be quartered correctly. Mantuas have shorter crank rods allowing them to be centered. This seems to be why their drives are so dependable. They tend to only jam when one of the rods comes lose and moves off of center. These engines will function correctly if quartered correctly and seem to have a little flexibility in that regard, but if they are not centered and not quartered correctly, they do jam and inhibit smoth operation.
                                                                           
                                                                          If you need me to post a picture of what I mean by centering the crank rod rivet over the axle, I can take one. As for quartering, I think I am using the term correctly...
                                                                           
                                                                          This link might help explain more:
                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                          Sean

                                                                          From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 1:52:08 PM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question

                                                                          I don't follow what you mean "some gearing prefers to have the crank pin centered over the axle"--  gj
                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 7:06 AM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question

                                                                          Hi Larry,
                                                                           
                                                                          Welcome, first off!
                                                                           
                                                                          Sorry if I repeat anything anyone else has stated here. I did not catch the entire discussion.
                                                                           
                                                                          I use oil often and before every use after an extended period of time. I do not run an engine without making sure it is properly lubed. I treat them better than my car. I use grease (plastic safe and in a squeeze tube) on the internal geared parts. I prefer oils on the parts which can be accessed easily. I believe using gear grease on the many exposed axle gear promotes the collection of dirt and debis. I prefer Labelles No.s 102, 104 and 107. I think 102 and 107 are plastic safe and 104 is metal only. I am not sure I remember correctly, but I think the 102 is thicker. 104 and 107 are thin. I do lube all the moving parts and clean the electrical contacts.
                                                                           
                                                                          This is key to good operation:  I use my dremel with the wire wheel attachment to clean the driver wheels and all tender wheel contact surfaces. I also allow the dremel to spin the tender wheels at a high rate of speed, with some applied pressure which greatly improves the contact between the axle and the sideframes. (I am lazy and do not like taking apart the trucks and clean the axle ends, besides, many can not be taken apart.)
                                                                           
                                                                          I then remove the tender truck from the chassis and clean the contact between the tender truck and the chassis surfaces. I also clean the areas around the pick-up wire and tender frame. If this is all done, there should be little drop-off between the track and motor.
                                                                           
                                                                          Mantua motors are easy to remove. If all else fails, I pull the motor. I test the motor by itself. It should spin freely at a high RPM.
                                                                           
                                                                          Then I test the chassis. If it rolls freely with little resistance then I know the valve gear is not binding. I also oil all points of contact on it as well. I check the quartering and make sure it is set properly. I have found some gearing prefers to have the crank pin centered over the axle. (usually japan imports) Mantua I believe this works well for too. Bowser, penn Line and Varney require proper quartering.
                                                                           
                                                                          If the motorless chassis with valve gear does not roll freely, this will cause jerky operation.
                                                                           
                                                                          Good luck.
                                                                           
                                                                          Sean

                                                                          From: Larry <larry_l_doub@ yahoo.com>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:18:00 AM
                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question

                                                                          I've oiled everything, motor bearings, wheel axels, all the side rod
                                                                          moving parts n pieces, gearing, about the only thing I have Not Oiled
                                                                          is the headlight.
                                                                          I think it just needs a complete backshopping after all.

                                                                          Larry

                                                                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote:
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Have you lightly oiled the front and rear bearings on
                                                                          > the motor?
                                                                          > Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                          >
                                                                          > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Larry" <larry_l_doub@ > wrote:
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > Hey Guys,
                                                                          > > Ok here goes,
                                                                          > > I went to the LHS the other day, picked up some wrong paint,
                                                                          > > grrrrrrr and few detail parts and a much needed and forgot to get
                                                                          the
                                                                          > > last time, oil...
                                                                          > > Labell medium oil,
                                                                          > > So anyway, I have two 4-6-2 Mantua steam engines,
                                                                          > > Forst one I got, runs real cruddy, not to good in reverse or not
                                                                          like
                                                                          > > a full power engine should but not bad, but forword
                                                                          > > it is really weak and then stops after a short time,
                                                                          > > The other, same exact model, ran great, but man was it noisey,
                                                                          > > So, after I got my oil n things, I've been going through and
                                                                          giving
                                                                          > > all my motive power a shot of oil where it needs, this is stuff
                                                                          great,
                                                                          > > So i desided to do this noisy steamer, and holy smokes, I can't
                                                                          > > believe how sweet thing runs, quite, smooth, better then new IHC
                                                                          > > steam or close to it.
                                                                          > > I even have a Old bachmann diesel thing from who knows back when,
                                                                          and
                                                                          > > it runs a ton better and less noisey...
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > But now for the question, this one 4-6-2 that oiling up didn't
                                                                          help,
                                                                          > > the brushes look ok and the commitator so don't appear to be
                                                                          burned
                                                                          > > up, is this just a worn out or weak motor why this don't run
                                                                          worth a
                                                                          > > hoot?
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > Larry
                                                                          > >
                                                                          >



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                                                                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                          Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.20/1943 - Release Date: 02/10/09 07:20:00
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8635 From: Jack Priller Date: 2/10/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: 4 Sale additions & pix
                                                                          As promised, pix have been added to "Jack's Junque" photo album,
                                                                          even though they are not quite as good as I had hoped. [@#$%$#@ el-
                                                                          cheapo digital camera]

                                                                          Also adding some items:

                                                                          First is a very good condition copy of the Fleischmann M3
                                                                          Layout Book, complete with the text manual in English; translation
                                                                          by one of my heroes, Eric LaNal aka 'Uncle Eric' aka Allen Rice

                                                                          Also have 6 apparently scratchbuilt gondolas, balsa or basswood
                                                                          construction; comes with a dozen sprung metal trucks and maybe half
                                                                          the couplers you would meed to finish them. [One truck is dis-
                                                                          assembled.]

                                                                          Whoever pays the postage can have a coverless copy of the 1959
                                                                          Marklin catalog in GERMAN.

                                                                          Jack

                                                                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Priller" <westpac67@...>
                                                                          wrote:
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Recently acquired [via swap], a fair size box of
                                                                          > assorted "stuff". After `harvesting' the items I actually have a
                                                                          > use for, the following are available for semi-reasonable offer(s).
                                                                          >
                                                                          > E-7 Diesel by "hobbytown of Boston"
                                                                          > Die-cast in original box, amateurish yellow paint job, with
                                                                          > original instructions but sans couplers
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Mantua Booster
                                                                          > Die-cast in original box, amateurish yellow paint job, valve
                                                                          > gear loose in box but missing the mounting screws, working die-
                                                                          cast
                                                                          > coupler on rear only.
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Globe AB pair
                                                                          > Both built-up plastic kit dummies, UP yellow paint #1468 &
                                                                          > 1468b, die-cast dummy knuckle couplers both ends of both units.
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Ulrich Box car
                                                                          > Built up metal kit #108, D&RGW, working die-cast couplers
                                                                          > both ends. The brake-wheel is loose, but in the original box.
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Ulrich Flat car
                                                                          > Built up metal kit #110, T&P, working die-cast couplers both ends,
                                                                          > in the original box..
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Athearn Pulpwood car
                                                                          > Built-up metal kit # A 607, KCS, dummy die-cast knuckle one
                                                                          > end, working die-cast knuckle on the other, with original RED box.
                                                                          > [Due to length with the couplers, I'll have to pack the box and
                                                                          the
                                                                          > car as two items.]
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Athearn Tank car
                                                                          > Built-up metal kit # A 510, Shell, dummy die-cast knuckles,
                                                                          > in original RED box.
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Athearn Tank car
                                                                          > Built-up metal kit # A 501 Shorty, Co-op, dummy die-cast
                                                                          > knuckles, in original RED box.
                                                                          >
                                                                          > All the boxes are in fair condition at best, with shelf-
                                                                          > wear, and some have price, etc. markings on them in crayon/ink.
                                                                          > Worst of the lot is the Ulrich flat box, which has one corner of
                                                                          the
                                                                          > top torn. There will be no extra charge for the authentic RUST on
                                                                          > the CO-OP tank or D&RGW box cars. Not a lot of rust, but there is
                                                                          > some there. Hope to have [better than eBay average] quality pix
                                                                          > taken and posted later today.
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Jack Priller
                                                                          > El Paso, TX
                                                                          >
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8636 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 2/11/2009
                                                                          Subject: Winans Camel
                                                                          I am looking for a Winans Camel kit , which was produced by Pro Custom
                                                                          Hobbies in Philadelphia? , based on a MDC mechanism. Some days ago I got
                                                                          a newsletter from Factory Direct Trains that they have released a model...
                                                                          http://factorydirecttrains.com/factorydirecttrains.aspx?utm_source=delivra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ohon
                                                                          To my frustration, this is O gauge...
                                                                          Thought I might ask, maybe somebody has one of the Pro Custom kits and
                                                                          would consider to part with it... any condition, built or unbuilt.

                                                                          Thanks Gerold
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8637 From: wildwoodjct Date: 2/11/2009
                                                                          Subject: Modeller's Choice boxcar
                                                                          This is hardly a 'vintage question', but I can think of no other forum
                                                                          for the question. I recently assembled a boxcar kit that I purchased
                                                                          several years ago at the big train show in Toronto which is held in
                                                                          November. The boxcar is lettered TH&B. I paid C$15.99 for it. The
                                                                          lettering and painting is specially done similar to the now gone
                                                                          Bev-Bel kits. The kit came in a Branchline Trains box and with a
                                                                          Branchline instruction sheet. As I assembled the kit, I realized that
                                                                          it was a Athearn 'blue box' kit! I never knew that Branchline sold
                                                                          this type of kit. Then the kit must have been specially lettered by
                                                                          'Modeller's Choice', apparently a Canadian firm. The (Branchline) box
                                                                          has just a 'Modeller's Choice' label on the end of the box. Has
                                                                          anybody else come across kits like these? Thanks.--John
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8638 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/11/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Modeller's Choice boxcar
                                                                          over the years there have been a number of firms taking undecorated kits
                                                                          from Athearn, MDC, and others and lettering them for "small interest" roads.
                                                                          Bev-Bel is one, Kar-line was another. In a similar manner, small-run
                                                                          souvenir cars are often produced for sale at conventions where the interest
                                                                          in car collecting is small.

                                                                          In the area of souvenir cars--PCR has a good demand--such that they can meet
                                                                          the minimum order requirement of some of the manufacturers or custom
                                                                          decorators. On the other hand, Sunshine Region has such a small demand
                                                                          that Bob Chait kept the tradition going by painting and decaling two cases
                                                                          (24 cars per case) of HO cans and a few N Scale cars for each convention gj
                                                                          (In recent years the trend in PCR has been toward models of prototypes
                                                                          "local" to the convention, with a decal of the convention logo to be applied
                                                                          by the collector. ) (yes--I collect these)
                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...>
                                                                          To
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8639 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/11/2009
                                                                          Subject: HH 600
                                                                          The Walthers lead-alloy HH600/660 diesel switcher bodies were
                                                                          incredibly crude, even for the day, and- as compared to other Walthers
                                                                          offerings. . The single power truck (actually pretty good with
                                                                          standard Pittman DC60 motor) would hardly sufficient to pull its own
                                                                          weight. The truck side frames provided by Walthers (and so depicted)
                                                                          were express reefer/passenger, not bad looking, but nothing like the
                                                                          Blunt trucks common to the prototype. At one time I was on the verge
                                                                          of melting down my HH600 body to provide weight for a brass steam
                                                                          locomotive. Something told me not to do it, and at the moment it sits
                                                                          on a shelf conspicuously next to an Overland/Ajin fabricated brass
                                                                          model of the same prototype.

                                                                          Denny


                                                                          Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                          Sacramento
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8640 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/11/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Modeller's Choice boxcar
                                                                          Hi John,
                                                                           
                                                                          There were several of those outfits, in fact, the Bev-Bel cars were almost always Athearn bluebox kits, Bev-Bel never had their own boxes printed up, they just put a printed label on the end of the Athearn box...........:o)
                                                                           
                                                                          Gary W
                                                                           

                                                                           
                                                                          Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                          From: wildwoodjct <johnbarth@...>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:16:49 PM
                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Modeller's Choice boxcar

                                                                          This is hardly a 'vintage question', but I can think of no other forum
                                                                          for the question. I recently assembled a boxcar kit that I purchased
                                                                          several years ago at the big train show in Toronto which is held in
                                                                          November. The boxcar is lettered TH&B. I paid C$15.99 for it. The
                                                                          lettering and painting is specially done similar to the now gone
                                                                          Bev-Bel kits. The kit came in a Branchline Trains box and with a
                                                                          Branchline instruction sheet. As I assembled the kit, I realized that
                                                                          it was a Athearn 'blue box' kit! I never knew that Branchline sold
                                                                          this type of kit. Then the kit must have been specially lettered by
                                                                          'Modeller's Choice', apparently a Canadian firm. The (Branchline) box
                                                                          has just a 'Modeller's Choice' label on the end of the box. Has
                                                                          anybody else come across kits like these? Thanks.--John
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8641 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/11/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Modeller's Choice boxcar
                                                                          What you have is Branchline's "Yardmaster" series. Currently available
                                                                          (although I don't see a TH&B currently listed). Most paint schemes are $
                                                                          10.98 US at Walthers.

                                                                          They also make a deal about 4 packs with 4 different numbers at $ 43.92 a
                                                                          pack, a savings of..... ZERO!

                                                                          (And people wonder why I prefer the old ways of doing business).

                                                                          Don

                                                                          Don Dellmann
                                                                          don.dellmann@...
                                                                          http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                          http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                          Owner
                                                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...>
                                                                          To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:16 PM
                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Modeller's Choice boxcar


                                                                          > This is hardly a 'vintage question', but I can think of no other forum
                                                                          > for the question. I recently assembled a boxcar kit that I purchased
                                                                          > several years ago at the big train show in Toronto which is held in
                                                                          > November. The boxcar is lettered TH&B. I paid C$15.99 for it. The
                                                                          > lettering and painting is specially done similar to the now gone
                                                                          > Bev-Bel kits. The kit came in a Branchline Trains box and with a
                                                                          > Branchline instruction sheet. As I assembled the kit, I realized that
                                                                          > it was a Athearn 'blue box' kit! I never knew that Branchline sold
                                                                          > this type of kit. Then the kit must have been specially lettered by
                                                                          > 'Modeller's Choice', apparently a Canadian firm. The (Branchline) box
                                                                          > has just a 'Modeller's Choice' label on the end of the box. Has
                                                                          > anybody else come across kits like these? Thanks.--John
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          > ------------------------------------
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8642 From: Karl Peters Date: 2/11/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Mantua Steam Rave and a question
                                                                          Larry:
                                                                           
                                                                          "Quartering" refers to the pratice of having the crankpins of multi-cylinder steam engines at an angle to each other, to make the engine self-starting. In a two cylinder engine, like a common steam locomotive, the angle is 90 degrees.
                                                                           
                                                                          In a model engine, the actual angle is not that important, as long as it is the same for all driving axles.
                                                                           
                                                                          Hopes this helps.
                                                                           
                                                                          Karl Peters
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8643 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/11/2009
                                                                          Subject: happy days
                                                                           

                                                                                       Well today was a good train day. For the first time in a while I was able to run some of my collection of vintage trains. In April it will be 5 years we are in our new house. When we moved I had to leave a completed  10' x 11' layout in our old home. I never thought I would move and I had built my layout a little to permanent. I hated the thoughts of destroying it just to take buildings and bridges so I left the layout intact with transformers , some newer HO items on it plus a sound system. I thought I would be happy just taking my collection to the new home.
                                                                                I started to get a little flustered when I was rebuilding something and only had a 5' piece of straight track to test run things. I guess I got jealous of Sean N getting a layout and I decided I would have something to test run my items on. I broke down and built a 4' x 8' platform 42" high. It fits in the middle of my train room with lots of room to spare. I intend to build 2 more 4' x 8' platforms and join them in the shape of a U (a square U of course) This first platform has level track for now and is not permanent. I still have lots of room to walk around the platforms and view the collection on the walls. It is nice to have a 20' x 30' room just for trains. I willwant to ballast the track to make it look better. The other 2 platforms will have the track raised with minor grades in some places with at least one bridge with track running over other track. I haven't really decided that for now. I don't think I'll ever get to buildings, forest with lots of trees, vehicles and people like the last layout but in the meantime it will be made to move and disassemble if need be. (I don't expect to move again).
                                                                                It was neat to run some of my vintage HO again. I picked out a Varney Super Consolidation to run. (It was hard deciding what one to service, after they all have sat so long, and having over 150 vintage HO steam engines to pick from)  While I don't collect freight cars I do have a couple of sets with them in. I took about 8 Marx HO freight cars just for something to pull.
                                                                                 It was nice to just sit there and watch. I can run any engine I want any time I want. While the inner circle, for now, is just a European NASCAR oval (trains running the opposite direction and turning right) and 18" radius, the outer tracks will have 22" radius to run my Winton Allegheny and Varney Yellowstone. I am surprised my wife wasn't unhappy but she now has more space to store more stuff ala George Carlin's old comic routine.
                                                                                                                                                                        Jim H.
                                                                                     
                                                                            

                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8644 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/11/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: happy days

                                                                          Jim,

                                                                          That does indeed sound like happy days.  Enjoy

                                                                           

                                                                          Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                           

                                                                          From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard
                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:17 PM
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                          Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] happy days

                                                                           

                                                                           

                                                                           

                                                                                       Well today was a good train day. For the first time in a while I was able to run some of my collection of vintage trains. In April it will be 5 years we are in our new house. When we moved I had to leave a completed  10' x 11' layout in our old home. I never thought I would move and I had built my layout a little to permanent. I hated the thoughts of destroying it just to take buildings and bridges so I left the layout intact with transformers , some newer HO items on it plus a sound system. I thought I would be happy just taking my collection to the new home.

                                                                                I started to get a little flustered when I was rebuilding something and only had a 5' piece of straight track to test run things. I guess I got jealous of Sean N getting a layout and I decided I would have something to test run my items on. I broke down and built a 4' x 8' platform 42" high. It fits in the middle of my train room with lots of room to spare. I intend to build 2 more 4' x 8' platforms and join them in the shape of a U (a square U of course) This first platform has level track for now and is not permanent. I still have lots of room to walk around the platforms and view the collection on the walls. It is nice to have a 20' x 30' room just for trains. I willwant to ballast the track to make it look better. The other 2 platforms will have the track raised with minor grades in some places with at least one bridge with track running over other track. I haven't really decided that for now. I don't think I'll ever get to buildings, forest with lots of trees, vehicles and people like the last layout but in the meantime it will be made to move and disassemble if need be. (I don't expect to move again).

                                                                                It was neat to run some of my vintage HO again. I picked out a Varney Super Consolidation to run. (It was hard deciding what one to service, after they all have sat so long, and having over 150 vintage HO steam engines to pick from)  While I don't collect freight cars I do have a couple of sets with them in. I took about 8 Marx HO freight cars just for something to pull.

                                                                                 It was nice to just sit there and watch. I can run any engine I want any time I want. While the inner circle, for now, is just a European NASCAR oval (trains running the opposite direction and turning right) and 18" radius, the outer tracks will have 22" radius to run my Winton Allegheny and Varney Yellowstone. I am surprised my wife wasn't unhappy but she now has more space to store more stuff ala George Carlin's old comic routine.

                                                                                                                                                                        Jim H.

                                                                                     

                                                                            

                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8645 From: Lance Russwurm Date: 2/11/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Modeller's Choice boxcar
                                                                          I haven't checked my mail in a week so I'm a  bit late with this.
                                                                          Modeller's Choice is one of the bigger hobby shops in southern Ontario. They are located in Hamilton. Here is their website:
                                                                          I've built a pile of their boxcars.
                                                                          Modeller's Choice makes  a practice of getting exclusive products run for them in TH&B markings...engines as well as boxcars and passenger cars. These products are made by various manufacturers. The quality varies, depending on whose tooling was used.
                                                                           
                                                                          The TH&B has a fanatical local following in the Hamilton area. It was jointly owned by the New York Central and Canadian Pacific so trains marked for NYC, CP and TH&B (Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo) can be run on a TH&B layout.
                                                                          The TH&B existed from the 1800's to the 1980's, when it was absorbed by CP. Towards the end of the steam era, they purchased two used NYC Hudsons (unstreamlined) that had previously pulled the Twentieth Century Limited. They also had a few similar looking Berkshires - I think these may have been the only ones ever used in Canada.
                                                                          Their head office in Hamilton has been recently restored to its 1930's splendour. It is a suberb example of Streamline Moderne...a variation of Art Deco. It is still being used as a commuter station.
                                                                          So, you can see that the TH&B is an appealing subject to model.

                                                                          Lance Russwurm
                                                                           
                                                                           


                                                                          --- On Wed, 2/11/09, wildwoodjct <johnbarth@...> wrote:
                                                                          From: wildwoodjct <johnbarth@...>
                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Modeller's Choice boxcar
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                          Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 2:16 PM

                                                                          This is hardly a 'vintage question', but I can think of no other forum
                                                                          for the question. I recently assembled a boxcar kit that I purchased
                                                                          several years ago at the big train show in Toronto which is held in
                                                                          November. The boxcar is lettered TH&B. I paid C$15.99 for it. The
                                                                          lettering and painting is specially done similar to the now gone
                                                                          Bev-Bel kits. The kit came in a Branchline Trains box and with a
                                                                          Branchline instruction sheet. As I assembled the kit, I realized that
                                                                          it was a Athearn 'blue box' kit! I never knew that Branchline sold
                                                                          this type of kit. Then the kit must have been specially lettered by
                                                                          'Modeller's Choice', apparently a Canadian firm. The (Branchline) box
                                                                          has just a 'Modeller's Choice' label on the end of the box. Has
                                                                          anybody else come across kits like these? Thanks.--John
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8646 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 2/11/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Winans Camel
                                                                          Gerold...

                                                                          I have an HO scale 0-4-0 Camelback of unknown heritage. The boiler, cab and fireman's cover are made of formed brass. The stack, bell two small tanks and rail stanchions are turned brass. The steam dome and smoke box front are cast metal. The frame, cylinders and stepped pilot are combined in a single casting. The cast metal looks like zamac but they show no deterioration or powdering. The side rods are stamped and the drivers have cast centers with brass tires. The model is assembled but unpainted. There is no motor and no tender.

                                                                          I have a pretty good memory of when and how I acquired most of my stuff but I can't recall where this little loco came from. If you are interested in this loco, let me know and I'll take a photo of it in the next day or so. After you get a look at it you can make me an offer.

                                                                          Richard Bale
                                                                          Carlsbad, CA


                                                                          **************
                                                                          The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000002)
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8647 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 2/11/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Modeller's Choice boxcar
                                                                          Not true. I've got a couple of boxes that just have Bev-Bel on them. They are r-t-r and not kits.
                                                                           
                                                                          Steve
                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:30 PM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Modeller's Choice boxcar

                                                                          Hi John,
                                                                           
                                                                          There were several of those outfits, in fact, the Bev-Bel cars were almost always Athearn bluebox kits, Bev-Bel never had their own boxes printed up, they just put a printed label on the end of the Athearn box...........:o)
                                                                           
                                                                          Gary W
                                                                           

                                                                           
                                                                          Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                          From: wildwoodjct <johnbarth@...>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:16:49 PM
                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Modeller's Choice boxcar

                                                                          This is hardly a 'vintage question', but I can think of no other forum
                                                                          for the question. I recently assembled a boxcar kit that I purchased
                                                                          several years ago at the big train show in Toronto which is held in
                                                                          November. The boxcar is lettered TH&B. I paid C$15.99 for it. The
                                                                          lettering and painting is specially done similar to the now gone
                                                                          Bev-Bel kits. The kit came in a Branchline Trains box and with a
                                                                          Branchline instruction sheet. As I assembled the kit, I realized that
                                                                          it was a Athearn 'blue box' kit! I never knew that Branchline sold
                                                                          this type of kit. Then the kit must have been specially lettered by
                                                                          'Modeller's Choice', apparently a Canadian firm. The (Branchline) box
                                                                          has just a 'Modeller's Choice' label on the end of the box. Has
                                                                          anybody else come across kits like these? Thanks.--John
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8648 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/11/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Winans Camel
                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          From: <Rhbale@...>
                                                                          To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:37 PM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winans Camel


                                                                          > Gerold...
                                                                          >
                                                                          > I have an HO scale 0-4-0 Camelback of unknown heritage. The boiler, cab
                                                                          > and
                                                                          > fireman's cover are made of formed brass. The stack, bell two small tanks
                                                                          > and
                                                                          > rail stanchions are turned brass. The steam dome and smoke box front are
                                                                          > cast
                                                                          > metal. The frame, cylinders and stepped pilot are combined in a single
                                                                          > casting.
                                                                          > The cast metal looks like zamac but they show no deterioration or
                                                                          > powdering.
                                                                          > The side rods are stamped and the drivers have cast centers with brass
                                                                          > tires.
                                                                          > The model is assembled but unpainted. There is no motor and no tender.
                                                                          >
                                                                          > I have a pretty good memory of when and how I acquired most of my stuff
                                                                          > but I
                                                                          > can't recall where this little loco came from. If you are interested in
                                                                          > this
                                                                          > loco, let me know and I'll take a photo of it in the next day or so. After
                                                                          > you
                                                                          > get a look at it you can make me an offer.
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Richard Bale
                                                                          > Carlsbad, CA

                                                                          Back in the 80's Pro Custom Hobbies (remember Ralphie the Rhino?) Offered a
                                                                          kit for a Winan's camel. I never saw one but might that be what it is?

                                                                          Don

                                                                          Don Dellmann
                                                                          don.dellmann@...
                                                                          http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                          http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                          Owner
                                                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8649 From: John Hagen Date: 2/11/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Winans Camel
                                                                          Geez, Don.

                                                                          Don't you ever sleep?

                                                                          John Hagen

                                                                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                          wrote:
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          > From: <Rhbale@...>
                                                                          > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                          > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:37 PM
                                                                          > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winans Camel
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          > > Gerold...
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > I have an HO scale 0-4-0 Camelback of unknown heritage. The
                                                                          boiler, cab
                                                                          > > and
                                                                          > > fireman's cover are made of formed brass. The stack, bell two
                                                                          small tanks
                                                                          > > and
                                                                          > > rail stanchions are turned brass. The steam dome and smoke box
                                                                          front are
                                                                          > > cast
                                                                          > > metal. The frame, cylinders and stepped pilot are combined in a
                                                                          single
                                                                          > > casting.
                                                                          > > The cast metal looks like zamac but they show no deterioration or
                                                                          > > powdering.
                                                                          > > The side rods are stamped and the drivers have cast centers with
                                                                          brass
                                                                          > > tires.
                                                                          > > The model is assembled but unpainted. There is no motor and no
                                                                          tender.
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > I have a pretty good memory of when and how I acquired most of my
                                                                          stuff
                                                                          > > but I
                                                                          > > can't recall where this little loco came from. If you are
                                                                          interested in
                                                                          > > this
                                                                          > > loco, let me know and I'll take a photo of it in the next day or
                                                                          so. After
                                                                          > > you
                                                                          > > get a look at it you can make me an offer.
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > Richard Bale
                                                                          > > Carlsbad, CA
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Back in the 80's Pro Custom Hobbies (remember Ralphie the Rhino?)
                                                                          Offered a
                                                                          > kit for a Winan's camel. I never saw one but might that be what it
                                                                          is?
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Don
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Don Dellmann
                                                                          > don.dellmann@...
                                                                          > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                          > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                          > Owner
                                                                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                          >
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8650 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/12/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Winans Camel
                                                                          sounds like a Mantua--too bad no tender--that would clinch it.  gj
                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          From: Rhbale@...
                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:37 PM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winans Camel

                                                                          Gerold...

                                                                          I have an HO scale 0-4-0 Camelback of unknown heritage. The boiler, cab and fireman's cover are made of formed brass. The stack, bell two small tanks and rail stanchions are turned brass. The steam dome and smoke box front are cast metal. The frame, cylinders and stepped pilot are combined in a single casting. The cast metal looks like zamac but they show no deterioration or powdering. The side rods are stamped and the drivers have cast centers with brass tires. The model is assembled but unpainted. There is no motor and no tender.

                                                                          I have a pretty good memory of when and how I acquired most of my stuff but I can't recall where this little loco came from. If you are interested in this loco, let me know and I'll take a photo of it in the next day or so. After you get a look at it you can make me an offer.

                                                                          Richard Bale
                                                                          Carlsbad, CA


                                                                          **************
                                                                          The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000002)


                                                                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                          Version: 8.0.234 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1947 - Release Date: 02/10/09 17:44:00
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8651 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/12/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Winans Camel
                                                                          Winans Camel was 0-8-0, had what looked like a greenhouse on top of the
                                                                          boiler as a cab. gj
                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                          To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:41 PM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winans Camel


                                                                          >
                                                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          > From: <Rhbale@...>
                                                                          > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                          > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:37 PM
                                                                          > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winans Camel
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >> Gerold...
                                                                          >>
                                                                          >> I have an HO scale 0-4-0 Camelback of unknown heritage. The boiler, cab
                                                                          >> and
                                                                          >> fireman's cover are made of formed brass. The stack, bell two small tanks
                                                                          >> and
                                                                          >> rail stanchions are turned brass. The steam dome and smoke box front are
                                                                          >> cast
                                                                          >> metal. The frame, cylinders and stepped pilot are combined in a single
                                                                          >> casting.
                                                                          >> The cast metal looks like zamac but they show no deterioration or
                                                                          >> powdering.
                                                                          >> The side rods are stamped and the drivers have cast centers with brass
                                                                          >> tires.
                                                                          >> The model is assembled but unpainted. There is no motor and no tender.
                                                                          >>
                                                                          >> I have a pretty good memory of when and how I acquired most of my stuff
                                                                          >> but I
                                                                          >> can't recall where this little loco came from. If you are interested in
                                                                          >> this
                                                                          >> loco, let me know and I'll take a photo of it in the next day or so.
                                                                          >> After
                                                                          >> you
                                                                          >> get a look at it you can make me an offer.
                                                                          >>
                                                                          >> Richard Bale
                                                                          >> Carlsbad, CA
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Back in the 80's Pro Custom Hobbies (remember Ralphie the Rhino?) Offered
                                                                          > a
                                                                          > kit for a Winan's camel. I never saw one but might that be what it is?
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Don
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Don Dellmann
                                                                          > don.dellmann@...
                                                                          > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                          > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                          > Owner
                                                                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          > ------------------------------------
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >


                                                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                          Version: 8.0.234 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1947 - Release Date: 02/10/09
                                                                          17:44:00
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8652 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 2/12/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Winans Camel
                                                                          That was my thought too, sounds a lot like Mantua's Goat yard switcher
                                                                          Willard

                                                                          At 03:23 AM 2/12/2009, you wrote:
                                                                          sounds like a Mantua--too bad no tender--that would clinch it.  gj
                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8653 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 2/12/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Winans Camel
                                                                          It's even being offered for sale currently: < http://factorydirecttrains.com/winanscamellocos.aspx>

                                                                          Willard

                                                                          At 03:35 AM 2/12/2009, you wrote:
                                                                          Winans Camel was 0-8-0, had what looked like a greenhouse on top of the
                                                                          boiler as a cab.  gj
                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8654 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/12/2009
                                                                          Subject: OT, (was [vintageHO] Re: Winans Camel
                                                                          8-5 every day at the office. :-)

                                                                          Seriously, I usually go to bed around 10, wake up again at midnight, get up,
                                                                          surf the web for an hour or so, then go back to bed and get up at 5:00 to
                                                                          take Lexy to work, Then I have a couple hours again before I go to work.

                                                                          Don

                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
                                                                          To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                          Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 1:31 AM
                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Winans Camel


                                                                          > Geez, Don.
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Don't you ever sleep?
                                                                          >
                                                                          > John Hagen
                                                                          >
                                                                          > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                          > wrote:
                                                                          >>
                                                                          >>
                                                                          >> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          >> From: <Rhbale@...>
                                                                          >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                          >> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:37 PM
                                                                          >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winans Camel
                                                                          >>
                                                                          >>
                                                                          >> > Gerold...
                                                                          >> >
                                                                          >> > I have an HO scale 0-4-0 Camelback of unknown heritage. The
                                                                          > boiler, cab
                                                                          >> > and
                                                                          >> > fireman's cover are made of formed brass. The stack, bell two
                                                                          > small tanks
                                                                          >> > and
                                                                          >> > rail stanchions are turned brass. The steam dome and smoke box
                                                                          > front are
                                                                          >> > cast
                                                                          >> > metal. The frame, cylinders and stepped pilot are combined in a
                                                                          > single
                                                                          >> > casting.
                                                                          >> > The cast metal looks like zamac but they show no deterioration or
                                                                          >> > powdering.
                                                                          >> > The side rods are stamped and the drivers have cast centers with
                                                                          > brass
                                                                          >> > tires.
                                                                          >> > The model is assembled but unpainted. There is no motor and no
                                                                          > tender.
                                                                          >> >
                                                                          >> > I have a pretty good memory of when and how I acquired most of my
                                                                          > stuff
                                                                          >> > but I
                                                                          >> > can't recall where this little loco came from. If you are
                                                                          > interested in
                                                                          >> > this
                                                                          >> > loco, let me know and I'll take a photo of it in the next day or
                                                                          > so. After
                                                                          >> > you
                                                                          >> > get a look at it you can make me an offer.
                                                                          >> >
                                                                          >> > Richard Bale
                                                                          >> > Carlsbad, CA
                                                                          >>
                                                                          >> Back in the 80's Pro Custom Hobbies (remember Ralphie the Rhino?)
                                                                          > Offered a
                                                                          >> kit for a Winan's camel. I never saw one but might that be what it
                                                                          > is?
                                                                          >>
                                                                          >> Don
                                                                          >>
                                                                          >> Don Dellmann
                                                                          >> don.dellmann@...
                                                                          >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                          >> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                          >> Owner
                                                                          >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                          >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                          >>
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          > ------------------------------------
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8655 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/12/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Modeller's Choice boxcar
                                                                          Hi Steve,
                                                                           
                                                                          I imagine Bev-Bel tried everything they could to stay in business, but Athearn wasn't selling undecs anymore, so without that supply, Bev-Bel folded, but not before trying to enter the rtr market I'm sure.............:o)
                                                                           
                                                                          Gary W

                                                                           
                                                                          Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                          From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                          Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 12:12:08 AM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Modeller's Choice boxcar

                                                                          Not true. I've got a couple of boxes that just have Bev-Bel on them. They are r-t-r and not kits.
                                                                           
                                                                          Steve
                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:30 PM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Modeller's Choice boxcar

                                                                          Hi John,
                                                                           
                                                                          There were several of those outfits, in fact, the Bev-Bel cars were almost always Athearn bluebox kits, Bev-Bel never had their own boxes printed up, they just put a printed label on the end of the Athearn box......... ..:o)
                                                                           
                                                                          Gary W
                                                                           

                                                                           
                                                                          Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                          From: wildwoodjct <johnbarth@verizon. net>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:16:49 PM
                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Modeller's Choice boxcar

                                                                          This is hardly a 'vintage question', but I can think of no other forum
                                                                          for the question. I recently assembled a boxcar kit that I purchased
                                                                          several years ago at the big train show in Toronto which is held in
                                                                          November. The boxcar is lettered TH&B. I paid C$15.99 for it. The
                                                                          lettering and painting is specially done similar to the now gone
                                                                          Bev-Bel kits. The kit came in a Branchline Trains box and with a
                                                                          Branchline instruction sheet. As I assembled the kit, I realized that
                                                                          it was a Athearn 'blue box' kit! I never knew that Branchline sold
                                                                          this type of kit. Then the kit must have been specially lettered by
                                                                          'Modeller's Choice', apparently a Canadian firm. The (Branchline) box
                                                                          has just a 'Modeller's Choice' label on the end of the box. Has
                                                                          anybody else come across kits like these? Thanks.--John
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8656 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/12/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Winans Camel
                                                                          /Could be a John English Mechanism...

                                                                          Don in Va
                                                                          ===============================================
                                                                          /
                                                                          Willard Seehorn wrote:
                                                                          >
                                                                          > That was my thought too, sounds a lot like Mantua's Goat yard switcher
                                                                          > Willard
                                                                          >
                                                                          > At 03:23 AM 2/12/2009, you wrote:
                                                                          >
                                                                          >> sounds like a Mantua--too bad no tender--that would clinch it. gj
                                                                          >>
                                                                          >> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          >>
                                                                          >
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8657 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 2/12/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Modeller's Choice boxcar
                                                                          I liked Bev-Bel, it was nice that SOMEONE would make CNJ equipment. They usually did a good job with their paint and lettering. The r-t-r stuff could have been a little better quality car, I think they were Life-Like or Bachmann or Model Power, but at least the graphics were acceptable. Changing out the couplers to Kadees and replacing wheelsets, if not the entire truck, made for a nice looking model at a very reasonable price.
                                                                           
                                                                          Steve
                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:40 AM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Modeller's Choice boxcar

                                                                          Hi Steve,
                                                                           
                                                                          I imagine Bev-Bel tried everything they could to stay in business, but Athearn wasn't selling undecs anymore, so without that supply, Bev-Bel folded, but not before trying to enter the rtr market I'm sure.............:o)
                                                                           
                                                                          Gary W

                                                                           
                                                                          Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                          From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                          Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 12:12:08 AM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Modeller's Choice boxcar

                                                                          Not true. I've got a couple of boxes that just have Bev-Bel on them. They are r-t-r and not kits.
                                                                           
                                                                          Steve
                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:30 PM
                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Modeller's Choice boxcar

                                                                          Hi John,
                                                                           
                                                                          There were several of those outfits, in fact, the Bev-Bel cars were almost always Athearn bluebox kits, Bev-Bel never had their own boxes printed up, they just put a printed label on the end of the Athearn box......... ..:o)
                                                                           
                                                                          Gary W
                                                                           

                                                                           
                                                                          Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                          From: wildwoodjct <johnbarth@verizon. net>
                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:16:49 PM
                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Modeller's Choice boxcar

                                                                          This is hardly a 'vintage question', but I can think of no other forum
                                                                          for the question. I recently assembled a boxcar kit that I purchased
                                                                          several years ago at the big train show in Toronto which is held in
                                                                          November. The boxcar is lettered TH&B. I paid C$15.99 for it. The
                                                                          lettering and painting is specially done similar to the now gone
                                                                          Bev-Bel kits. The kit came in a Branchline Trains box and with a
                                                                          Branchline instruction sheet. As I assembled the kit, I realized that
                                                                          it was a Athearn 'blue box' kit! I never knew that Branchline sold
                                                                          this type of kit. Then the kit must have been specially lettered by
                                                                          'Modeller's Choice', apparently a Canadian firm. The (Branchline) box
                                                                          has just a 'Modeller's Choice' label on the end of the box. Has
                                                                          anybody else come across kits like these? Thanks.--John
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8658 From: Riverboy Date: 2/12/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Modeller's Choice boxcar
                                                                          Hello,
                                                                           
                                                                          Bev-Bel did use Life-Like equipment back in the 80's . They used both the covered cement hoppers and the northeastern style caboose ( both adapted from old Varney molds ) . The lettering was quite nice and yes they were reasonably priced for custom painted items . The caboose they used was before the release of the P2K version Life-Like had .
                                                                           
                                                                          The only Bachmann equuipment I can think of they used was the GP30 .
                                                                           
                                                                          Tod ( Riverboy )
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8659 From: wildwoodjct Date: 2/12/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Modeller's Choice boxcar
                                                                          Thank you to everyone who responded to my question about the
                                                                          Modeller's Choice TH&B boxcar. My conclusion is that Branchline Trains
                                                                          got kits from Athearn. Then they re-packaged them with Branchline
                                                                          boxes and instruction sheets. Then some of the kits made their way to
                                                                          Modeller's Choice in Ontario who then did a good job of
                                                                          painting/decorating them for TH&B...an interesting tidbit of HO
                                                                          history. Bev-Bel in NJ is now gone. She and others filled the void of
                                                                          providing cars for the less common road names. With the trend to R-T-R
                                                                          cars manufactured in China there is now less of these specially done
                                                                          cars. My TH&B boxcar is now running behind a CP FA/FB Proto 2000
                                                                          lash-up which I purchased last month at the Greenberg show in Somerset
                                                                          NJ for $45 (good deal!). But there is also an Athearn/Bev-Bel L&NE
                                                                          boxcar in the train, but I don't think too many L&NE cars made their
                                                                          way to Canada even back in the 1950s!--John
                                                                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> wrote:
                                                                          >
                                                                          > This is hardly a 'vintage question', but I can think of no other forum
                                                                          > for the question. I recently assembled a boxcar kit that I purchased
                                                                          > several years ago at the big train show in Toronto which is held in
                                                                          > November. The boxcar is lettered TH&B. I paid C$15.99 for it. The
                                                                          > lettering and painting is specially done similar to the now gone
                                                                          > Bev-Bel kits. The kit came in a Branchline Trains box and with a
                                                                          > Branchline instruction sheet. As I assembled the kit, I realized that
                                                                          > it was a Athearn 'blue box' kit! I never knew that Branchline sold
                                                                          > this type of kit. Then the kit must have been specially lettered by
                                                                          > 'Modeller's Choice', apparently a Canadian firm. The (Branchline) box
                                                                          > has just a 'Modeller's Choice' label on the end of the box. Has
                                                                          > anybody else come across kits like these? Thanks.--John
                                                                          >
                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8661 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 2/12/2009
                                                                          Subject: Re: Winans Camel - picture
                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                            Rhbale@... wrote:
                                                                            Gerold...

                                                                            I have an HO scale 0-4-0 Camelback of unknown heritage. The boiler, cab and fireman's cover are made of formed brass. The stack, bell two small tanks and rail stanchions are turned brass. The steam dome and smoke box front are cast metal. The frame, cylinders and stepped pilot are combined in a single casting. The cast metal looks like zamac but they show no deterioration or powdering. The side rods are stamped and the drivers have cast centers with brass tires. The model is assembled but unpainted. There is no motor and no tender.

                                                                            I have a pretty good memory of when and how I acquired most of my stuff but I can't recall where this little loco came from. If you are interested in this loco, let me know and I'll take a photo of it in the next day or so. After you get a look at it you can make me an offer.

                                                                            Richard,
                                                                            as others have written before I am also pretty sure this is a Aristo or Mantua Camelback. What I am looking for is a 0-8-0 "Camel" - not Camelback - which looks distinctively different, its from an earlier era than camelbacks.



                                                                            Thanks anyway !

                                                                            Gerold

                                                                            Have attached a picture now.

                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8662 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/13/2009
                                                                            Subject: Re: Winans Camel - picture
                                                                            It looks like Factory Direct Trains has a Winans Camel out in at least 2 scales--and there is a Max Gray O Scale brass one on eBay currently.  That is a Winans in your attachment.  gj
                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                            Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:31 PM
                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winans Camel - picture

                                                                            Rhbale@... wrote:
                                                                            Gerold...

                                                                            I have an HO scale 0-4-0 Camelback of unknown heritage. The boiler, cab and fireman's cover are made of formed brass. The stack, bell two small tanks and rail stanchions are turned brass. The steam dome and smoke box front are cast metal. The frame, cylinders and stepped pilot are combined in a single casting. The cast metal looks like zamac but they show no deterioration or powdering. The side rods are stamped and the drivers have cast centers with brass tires. The model is assembled but unpainted. There is no motor and no tender.

                                                                            I have a pretty good memory of when and how I acquired most of my stuff but I can't recall where this little loco came from. If you are interested in this loco, let me know and I'll take a photo of it in the next day or so. After you get a look at it you can make me an offer.

                                                                            Richard,
                                                                            as others have written before I am also pretty sure this is a Aristo or Mantua Camelback. What I am looking for is a 0-8-0 "Camel" - not Camelback - which looks distinctively different, its from an earlier era than camelbacks.



                                                                            Thanks anyway !

                                                                            Gerold

                                                                            Have attached a picture now.


                                                                            No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                            Version: 8.0.234 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1950 - Release Date: 02/12/09 11:34:00
                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8663 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/13/2009
                                                                            Subject: Re: Winans Camel - picture
                                                                            The Hayes Camel was detailed in a very good DIY article ages ago. With
                                                                            that Thornburgh article and a scale drawing of the Winans Camel; one
                                                                            could make the model without much trouble.

                                                                            Mel T did it all with hand tools and no detail castings, so could any
                                                                            of us that tried with his methods. It is a very nice 10 page or less
                                                                            article. We'd have it easier than Mel did......... we have styrene to
                                                                            build with.

                                                                            Best to Ya,
                                                                            Mike Bauers
                                                                            Milwaukee, Wi


                                                                            On Feb 13, 2009, at 2:33 AM, Glenn476 wrote:

                                                                            > It looks like Factory Direct Trains has a Winans Camel out in at
                                                                            > least 2 scales--and there is a Max Gray O Scale brass one on eBay
                                                                            > currently. That is a Winans in your attachment. gj
                                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                            > From: Gerold Eckl
                                                                            .............
                                                                            >
                                                                            > as others have written before I am also pretty sure this is a Aristo
                                                                            > or Mantua Camelback. What I am looking for is a 0-8-0 "Camel" - not
                                                                            > Camelback - which looks distinctively different, its from an earlier
                                                                            > era than camelbacks.
                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8664 From: Larry Date: 2/13/2009
                                                                            Subject: Some ID please
                                                                            Hey Gang,
                                                                            I have a link here to my photobucket, the first three pics of the album
                                                                            are a frame for something,
                                                                            Can you tell me what loco this is for exacly?
                                                                            Also, i think they are Ulrich, but a few pics later are two metal
                                                                            hoppers that have opening doors on the bottom on both sides, like 6 ea
                                                                            side, what type of car is this prototipiacly speaking, and who made it?
                                                                            Seen them in Ebay n forget exacly who it is "been watching to much
                                                                            vintage stuff to keep it all straight.
                                                                            http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v371/MrAquarium/1-87%20scale%20trains/
                                                                            Thanks guys,

                                                                            Larry

                                                                            Oh yeah, thier is a bag of somethings I took a picture of two, what are
                                                                            them things for?
                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8665 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/13/2009
                                                                            Subject: Re: Some ID please
                                                                            Hi Larry,
                                                                            The chassis looks like it might be an Athearn to me and without looking at the pics of the hopper car actually sounds like the ULRICH GS GONDOLA CAR KIT  to me..
                                                                             
                                                                            Sean

                                                                            From: Larry <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                            Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 3:24:15 PM
                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Some ID please

                                                                            Hey Gang,
                                                                            I have a link here to my photobucket, the first three pics of the album
                                                                            are a frame for something,
                                                                            Can you tell me what loco this is for exacly?
                                                                            Also, i think they are Ulrich, but a few pics later are two metal
                                                                            hoppers that have opening doors on the bottom on both sides, like 6 ea
                                                                            side, what type of car is this prototipiacly speaking, and who made it?
                                                                            Seen them in Ebay n forget exacly who it is "been watching to much
                                                                            vintage stuff to keep it all straight.
                                                                            http://smg.photobuc ket.com/albums/ v371/MrAquarium/ 1-87%20scale% 20trains/
                                                                            Thanks guys,

                                                                            Larry

                                                                            Oh yeah, thier is a bag of somethings I took a picture of two, what are
                                                                            them things for?
                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8666 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 2/13/2009
                                                                            Subject: Re: Winans Camel - picture
                                                                            Glenn476 wrote:
                                                                            > It looks like Factory Direct Trains has a Winans Camel out in at least
                                                                            > 2 scales--and there is a Max Gray O Scale brass one on eBay
                                                                            > currently. That is a Winans in your attachment. gj
                                                                            Glenn,

                                                                            I have already contacted Factory Direct trains, asked them If there is a
                                                                            chance for an H0 version... reply: definitely not. - The Max Gray locos
                                                                            are beautiful but unfortunately a little to large ....

                                                                            Gerold
                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8667 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/13/2009
                                                                            Subject: Re: Some ID please
                                                                            The frame is Athearn...  The two GS gons were originally made by Ulrich.
                                                                            Don in VA
                                                                            ===========================================

                                                                            Larry wrote:

                                                                            Hey Gang,
                                                                            I have a link here to my photobucket, the first three pics of the album
                                                                            are a frame for something,
                                                                            Can you tell me what loco this is for exacly?
                                                                            Also, i think they are Ulrich, but a few pics later are two metal
                                                                            hoppers that have opening doors on the bottom on both sides, like 6 ea
                                                                            side, what type of car is this prototipiacly speaking, and who made it?
                                                                            Seen them in Ebay n forget exacly who it is "been watching to much
                                                                            vintage stuff to keep it all straight.
                                                                            http://smg.photobuc ket.com/albums/ v371/MrAquarium/ 1-87%20scale% 20trains/
                                                                            Thanks guys,

                                                                            Larry

                                                                            Oh yeah, thier is a bag of somethings I took a picture of two, what are
                                                                            them things for?
                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8668 From: Larry Date: 2/13/2009
                                                                            Subject: Re: Some ID please
                                                                            Thanks for the frame ID, Now I just need to figure out what it is
                                                                            for, F7, gp7 or 9 don't fit it..

                                                                            Larry

                                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...>
                                                                            wrote:
                                                                            >
                                                                            > /The frame is Athearn... The two GS gons were originally made by
                                                                            Ulrich.
                                                                            > Don in VA
                                                                            > ===========================================
                                                                            > /
                                                                            > Larry wrote:
                                                                            > >
                                                                            > > Hey Gang,
                                                                            > > I have a link here to my photobucket, the first three pics of the
                                                                            album
                                                                            > > are a frame for something,
                                                                            > > Can you tell me what loco this is for exacly?
                                                                            > > Also, i think they are Ulrich, but a few pics later are two metal
                                                                            > > hoppers that have opening doors on the bottom on both sides, like
                                                                            6 ea
                                                                            > > side, what type of car is this prototipiacly speaking, and who
                                                                            made it?
                                                                            > > Seen them in Ebay n forget exacly who it is "been watching to much
                                                                            > > vintage stuff to keep it all straight.
                                                                            > > http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v371/MrAquarium/1-87%20scale%
                                                                            20trains/
                                                                            > > <http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v371/MrAquarium/1-87%20scale%
                                                                            20trains/>
                                                                            > > Thanks guys,
                                                                            > >
                                                                            > > Larry
                                                                            > >
                                                                            > > Oh yeah, thier is a bag of somethings I took a picture of two,
                                                                            what are
                                                                            > > them things for?
                                                                            > >
                                                                            > >
                                                                            >
                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8669 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/13/2009
                                                                            Subject: Re: Some ID please
                                                                            With those trucks, maybe a GP30... or GP 35.
                                                                            Don in VA
                                                                            =======================================================
                                                                            Larry wrote:

                                                                            Thanks for the frame ID, Now I just need to figure out what it is
                                                                            for, F7, gp7 or 9 don't fit it..

                                                                            Larry

                                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...>
                                                                            wrote:
                                                                            >
                                                                            > /The frame is Athearn... The two GS gons were originally made by
                                                                            Ulrich.
                                                                            > Don in VA
                                                                            > ============ ========= ========= ========= ====
                                                                            > /
                                                                            > Larry wrote:
                                                                            > >
                                                                            > > Hey Gang,
                                                                            > > I have a link here to my photobucket, the first three pics of the
                                                                            album
                                                                            > > are a frame for something,
                                                                            > > Can you tell me what loco this is for exacly?
                                                                            > > Also, i think they are Ulrich, but a few pics later are two metal
                                                                            > > hoppers that have opening doors on the bottom on both sides, like
                                                                            6 ea
                                                                            > > side, what type of car is this prototipiacly speaking, and who
                                                                            made it?
                                                                            > > Seen them in Ebay n forget exacly who it is "been watching to much
                                                                            > > vintage stuff to keep it all straight.
                                                                            > > http://smg.photobuc ket.com/albums/ v371/MrAquarium/ 1-87%20scale%
                                                                            20trains/
                                                                            > > <http://smg.photobuc ket.com/albums/ v371/MrAquarium/ 1-87%20scale%
                                                                            20trains/>
                                                                            > > Thanks guys,
                                                                            > >
                                                                            > > Larry
                                                                            > >
                                                                            > > Oh yeah, thier is a bag of somethings I took a picture of two,
                                                                            what are
                                                                            > > them things for?
                                                                            > >
                                                                            > >
                                                                            >
                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8670 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/13/2009
                                                                            Subject: Re: Some ID please
                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                            From: "Larry" <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                                            To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                            Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 7:01 PM
                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Some ID please


                                                                            > Thanks for the frame ID, Now I just need to figure out what it is
                                                                            > for, F7, gp7 or 9 don't fit it..
                                                                            >
                                                                            > Larry

                                                                            Without going downstairs to check I'm gonna say it's a GP-35.

                                                                            Don

                                                                            Don Dellmann
                                                                            don.dellmann@...
                                                                            http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                            http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                            Owner
                                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8671 From: Don Grant Date: 2/13/2009
                                                                            Subject: Re: Some ID please
                                                                            Probably GP30.
                                                                            Best,
                                                                            Don

                                                                            --- On Fri, 2/13/09, Larry <larry_l_doub@...> wrote:
                                                                            From: Larry <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Some ID please
                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                            Date: Friday, February 13, 2009, 5:01 PM

                                                                            Thanks for the frame ID, Now I just need to figure out what it is 
for, F7, gp7 or 9 don't fit it..

Larry

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton"
<chpln1@...> 
wrote:
>
> /The frame is Athearn...  The two GS gons were originally made by 
Ulrich.
> Don in VA
> ===========================================
> /
> Larry wrote:
> >
> > Hey Gang,
> > I have a link here to my photobucket, the first three pics of the 
album
> > are a frame for something,
> > Can you tell me what loco this is for exacly?
> > Also, i think they are Ulrich, but a few pics later are two metal
> > hoppers that have opening doors on the bottom on both sides, like 
6 ea
> > side, what type of car is this prototipiacly speaking, and who 
made it?
> > Seen them in Ebay n forget exacly who it is "been watching to
much
> > vintage stuff to keep it all straight.
> > http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v371/MrAquarium/1-87%20scale%
20trains/ 
> > <http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v371/MrAquarium/1-87%20scale%
20trains/>
> > Thanks guys,
> >
> > Larry
> >
> > Oh yeah, thier is a bag of somethings I took a picture of two, 
what are
> > them things for?
> >
> >
>




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                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8672 From: Chris B Date: 2/14/2009
                                                                            Subject: "Adams & Sons Foundry, Texas (was) Re: [vintageHO] find out
                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                              Jim, congratulations on getting them rolling!  I just came up from the basement myself, covered with dust and flux, saw this on ebay, and realized I only even knew what it was thanks to you.

                                                                              HO Brass Diesel Engine for Parts or Restoring

                                                                              Item number: 310122606703

                                                                              When I read the listing and it said there was a mark on the diesel casting which says "Adams & Sons Foundry, Texas" I remembered what you wrote about Adams and Garco.

                                                                              Chris B.

                                                                              fwiw, the same seller also has listed "2 HO Brass Dock Locomotives for Repair or Parts marked "Gem Olympia, Japan".


                                                                              From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                              Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 11:27:57 AM
                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] find out

                                                                              Hi Ray
                                                                               
                                                                                     I am really starting to believe there was a REAL close relationship between the A&S (Adams & Son) casting company, Dallas Model Craft (DMC) and GARCO and I don't mean it was just supplying parts. Their products seem to constantly overlap.  Even the relationship with Varney too.
                                                                                  I wish I could find out more but there is little background information about these companies, like owners. Other then the products they produced, unless there is a lot of that information in the article you cited, it is hard to come by.
                                                                                  Any one out there have any info , even little bits and pieces, would be helpful. Maybe someone out there has the entire story.
                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8673 From: Chris B Date: 2/14/2009
                                                                              Subject: Re: just window shopping.... anybody recognize these? on eBay ...
                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8674 From: Jim Waterman Date: 2/14/2009
                                                                              Subject: Re: Some ID please
                                                                              The loco frame, I'm pretty sure, is the early Athearn dummy GP-7/9 frame - note the round dot on the side above the fuel tank. That feature was changed to a small rectangle later that fit better with the details of the carbody.
                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8675 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/14/2009
                                                                              Subject: Re: "Adams & Sons Foundry, Texas (was) Re: [vintageHO] find out
                                                                                   Chris,
                                                                                           See, you got a good eye already. This is actually a Dallas Model Craft (DMC) E-7, at least that's what they called it. Some sellers see the name A&S (Adams &Sons)  cast on the underside of the roof and sell it as that.. This DMC had a single drive. Later there was another run had dual drive with O ring . The E unit was a cast brass nose, a cast aluminum roof and a cast brass or bronze back end. First run items had sides of plain aluminum sheet material and had paper sides you cut and glued on, pre printed for the Santa Fe War Bonnet style. Later they had embossed sides that had the Santa Fe War Bonnet too. The owners, who ever they were, must have liked the Santa Fe as their streamlined passenger cars were Santa Fe types. I still believe Adams & Son Foundry had more then a passing interest in GARCO and DMC.
                                                                                            I saw this engine when it came on Ebay but since I have one already I didn't look closer. I can only afford to have one of each. A collectible vintage HO item.
                                                                                        I wasn't going to rebuild a new platform but since I had to make test track I have decided to go further. well brush that dust and flux off and get back to work.
                                                                                                                                                                                          Jim H
                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                              From: Chris B
                                                                              Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 6:39 PM
                                                                              Subject: "Adams & Sons Foundry, Texas (was) Re: [vintageHO] find out

                                                                              Jim, congratulations on getting them rolling!  I just came up from the basement myself, covered with dust and flux, saw this on ebay, and realized I only even knew what it was thanks to you.

                                                                              HO Brass Diesel Engine for Parts or Restoring

                                                                              Item number: 310122606703

                                                                              When I read the listing and it said there was a mark on the diesel casting which says "Adams & Sons Foundry, Texas" I remembered what you wrote about Adams and Garco.

                                                                              Chris B.

                                                                              fwiw, the same seller also has listed "2 HO Brass Dock Locomotives for Repair or Parts marked "Gem Olympia, Japan".


                                                                              From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                              Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 11:27:57 AM
                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] find out

                                                                              Hi Ray
                                                                               
                                                                                     I am really starting to believe there was a REAL close relationship between the A&S (Adams & Son) casting company, Dallas Model Craft (DMC) and GARCO and I don't mean it was just supplying parts. Their products seem to constantly overlap.  Even the relationship with Varney too.
                                                                                  I wish I could find out more but there is little background information about these companies, like owners. Other then the products they produced, unless there is a lot of that information in the article you cited, it is hard to come by.
                                                                                  Any one out there have any info , even little bits and pieces, would be helpful. Maybe someone out there has the entire story.
                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8676 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/14/2009
                                                                              Subject: Re: just window shopping.... anybody recognize these? on eBay ...
                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              > Ho vintage brass tender cast spring trucks rare 0 Bids $14.99
                                                                              +$4.95 2d 2h 10m
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              > Vintage Lindsay Brass Baldwin DS4-4 Switch Locomotive 0 Bids
                                                                              $9.99
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              > ________________________________
                                                                              >
                                                                              > Vintage Brass T-1 4-4-4-4 Steam Engine & Tender Restore 2 Bids
                                                                              $10.49
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              > BARR NIXON LINDSAY BRASS HO DIESEL SWITCH ENGINE CAB 0 Bids $19.99
                                                                              >
                                                                              Chris,
                                                                              Pictures are not the best.
                                                                              1st picture. Cast Brass Knapp or Bowser Redlands Calif tender
                                                                              that went with the cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain. Has a lot of detail
                                                                              added. Can't tell from picture if the right trucks.

                                                                              2nd picture The motor is a Lindsay motor but I doubt the body
                                                                              is Lindsay. A lot of people used Lindsay motors to power other items.
                                                                              Lindsay did make a brass Electromotive 1000HP Switcher but unless
                                                                              major detail alteration I don't think the body is Lindsay.

                                                                              3rd picture. Don't know but it is NOT Penn Line or Bowser T-1

                                                                              4th picture Barr Nixon H-10 44 brass kit , you got body only.
                                                                              You powered it and provided side frames. This looks again like
                                                                              powered by a Lindsay motor which is what the plans called for. Varney
                                                                              power trucks used often too. Sampson bought this design from Barr
                                                                              Nixon and sold it too. A mint Barr Nixon kit just went off today
                                                                              item 2603588558390

                                                                              Hope this helps. I wish sellers would send better pics
                                                                              Jim H
                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8677 From: Larry Date: 2/14/2009
                                                                              Subject: Re: just window shopping.... anybody recognize these? on eBay ...
                                                                              Ok, How did you get this in the post like that?

                                                                              larry


                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              > Ho vintage brass tender cast spring trucks rare 0 Bids $14.99
                                                                              +$4.95 2d 2h 10m
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              > Vintage Lindsay Brass Baldwin DS4-4 Switch Locomotive 0 Bids
                                                                              $9.99
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              > ________________________________
                                                                              >
                                                                              > Vintage Brass T-1 4-4-4-4 Steam Engine & Tender Restore 2 Bids
                                                                              $10.49
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              > BARR NIXON LINDSAY BRASS HO DIESEL SWITCH ENGINE CAB 0 Bids $19.99
                                                                              >
                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8678 From: Chris B Date: 2/14/2009
                                                                              Subject: Re: just window shopping.... anybody recognize these? on eBay ...
                                                                              Larry, this is all I did.

                                                                              on ebay, on a page with multiple items listed, I just selected one item, by left clicking on the white space around an item, and sweeping over it (in this case, sweeping over the picture, title, bid number, and price) until only it is highlighted, then picking the COPY command to put it on the clipboard, then switching to the email, and clicking in a blank spot on the email, and using the Paste command to put it right below here...
                                                                              I only picked this up when I was trying to make copies of past ebay buys with thumbnail pics before they expired.
                                                                              Chris B



                                                                              VARNEY CAST BRASS HO 4-6-4 HUDSON & VANDY TENDERThis seller accepts PayPal1 Bid$49.99


                                                                              From: Larry <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                              Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 8:27:49 PM
                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: just window shopping.... anybody recognize these? on eBay ...

                                                                              Ok, How did you get this in the post like that?

                                                                              larry

                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              > Ho vintage brass tender cast spring trucks rare 0 Bids $14.99
                                                                              +$4.95 2d 2h 10m
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              > Vintage Lindsay Brass Baldwin DS4-4 Switch Locomotive 0 Bids
                                                                              $9.99
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                              >
                                                                              > Vintage Brass T-1 4-4-4-4 Steam Engine & Tender Restore 2 Bids
                                                                              $10.49
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              > BARR NIXON LINDSAY BRASS HO DIESEL SWITCH ENGINE CAB 0 Bids $19.99
                                                                              >
                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8679 From: Chris B Date: 2/14/2009
                                                                              Subject: Re: "Adams & Sons Foundry, Texas (was) Re: [vintageHO] find out
                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                ain't life grand when you finally get build your dreams!

                                                                                From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 7:36:58 PM
                                                                                Subject: Re: "Adams & Sons Foundry, Texas (was) Re: [vintageHO] find out

                                                                                     Chris,
                                                                                             See, you got a good eye already. This is actually a Dallas Model Craft (DMC) E-7, at least that's what they called it. Some sellers see the name A&S (Adams &Sons)  cast on the underside of the roof and sell it as that.. This DMC had a single drive. Later there was another run had dual drive with O ring . The E unit was a cast brass nose, a cast aluminum roof and a cast brass or bronze back end. First run items had sides of plain aluminum sheet material and had paper sides you cut and glued on, pre printed for the Santa Fe War Bonnet style. Later they had embossed sides that had the Santa Fe War Bonnet too. The owners, who ever they were, must have liked the Santa Fe as their streamlined passenger cars were Santa Fe types. I still believe Adams & Son Foundry had more then a passing interest in GARCO and DMC.
                                                                                              I saw this engine when it came on Ebay but since I have one already I didn't look closer. I can only afford to have one of each. A collectible vintage HO item.
                                                                                          I wasn't going to rebuild a new platform but since I had to make test track I have decided to go further. well brush that dust and flux off and get back to work.
                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                From: Chris B
                                                                                Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 6:39 PM
                                                                                Subject: "Adams & Sons Foundry, Texas (was) Re: [vintageHO] find out

                                                                                Jim, congratulations on getting them rolling!  I just came up from the basement myself, covered with dust and flux, saw this on ebay, and realized I only even knew what it was thanks to you.

                                                                                HO Brass Diesel Engine for Parts or Restoring

                                                                                Item number: 310122606703

                                                                                When I read the listing and it said there was a mark on the diesel casting which says "Adams & Sons Foundry, Texas" I remembered what you wrote about Adams and Garco.

                                                                                Chris B.

                                                                                fwiw, the same seller also has listed "2 HO Brass Dock Locomotives for Repair or Parts marked "Gem Olympia, Japan".


                                                                                From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 11:27:57 AM
                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] find out

                                                                                Hi Ray
                                                                                 
                                                                                       I am really starting to believe there was a REAL close relationship between the A&S (Adams & Son) casting company, Dallas Model Craft (DMC) and GARCO and I don't mean it was just supplying parts. Their products seem to constantly overlap.  Even the relationship with Varney too.
                                                                                    I wish I could find out more but there is little background information about these companies, like owners. Other then the products they produced, unless there is a lot of that information in the article you cited, it is hard to come by.
                                                                                    Any one out there have any info , even little bits and pieces, would be helpful. Maybe someone out there has the entire story.
                                                                                                                                         Jim H
                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8680 From: Larry Date: 2/14/2009
                                                                                Subject: Re: just window shopping.... anybody recognize these? on eBay ...
                                                                                Say what? lol

                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                >
                                                                                > Larry, this is all I did.
                                                                                >
                                                                                > on ebay, on a page with multiple items listed, I just selected one
                                                                                item, by left clicking on the white space around an item, and
                                                                                sweeping over it (in this case, sweeping over the picture, title, bid
                                                                                number, and price) until only it is highlighted, then picking the
                                                                                COPY command to put it on the clipboard, then switching to the email,
                                                                                and clicking in a blank spot on the email, and using the Paste
                                                                                command to put it right below here...
                                                                                > I only picked this up when I was trying to make copies of past ebay
                                                                                buys with thumbnail pics before they expired.
                                                                                > Chris B
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                > VARNEY CAST BRASS HO 4-6-4 HUDSON & VANDY TENDER 1 Bid $49.99
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                > ________________________________
                                                                                > From: Larry <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                                                > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                > Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 8:27:49 PM
                                                                                > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: just window shopping.... anybody recognize
                                                                                these? on eBay ...
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                > Ok, How did you get this in the post like that?
                                                                                >
                                                                                > larry
                                                                                >
                                                                                > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
                                                                                > >
                                                                                > >
                                                                                > >
                                                                                > >
                                                                                > > Ho vintage brass tender cast spring trucks rare 0 Bids $14.99
                                                                                > +$4.95 2d 2h 10m
                                                                                > >
                                                                                > >
                                                                                > > Vintage Lindsay Brass Baldwin DS4-4 Switch Locomotive 0 Bids
                                                                                > $9.99
                                                                                > >
                                                                                > >
                                                                                > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                > >
                                                                                > > Vintage Brass T-1 4-4-4-4 Steam Engine & Tender Restore 2 Bids
                                                                                > $10.49
                                                                                > >
                                                                                > >
                                                                                > > BARR NIXON LINDSAY BRASS HO DIESEL SWITCH ENGINE CAB 0 Bids
                                                                                $19.99
                                                                                > >
                                                                                >
                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8681 From: Mike Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                Subject: Nickel Plate Products
                                                                                Is Nickel Plate Products who was basically and early importer of brass
                                                                                within the scope of the group? If so I would be most interested in your
                                                                                opinion of NKP in general? How well the product performed? Was it a
                                                                                major or minor player in early brass? Does the product run well? Anyone
                                                                                running any of their products?

                                                                                I presume by today's operating and detail standards it was a start.
                                                                                Very much appreciate you views.

                                                                                Very best, Mike Spanier
                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8682 From: prr_homewood_jct Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                Subject: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
                                                                                Hello, Great stuff on the group , lots of good information and help,
                                                                                that's what i am looking for.
                                                                                Question , Does anyone know the loading or unloading designs of the AHM
                                                                                helium container car ? i can guess what the container itself looks
                                                                                like , but the side frame structure of the car body has me confused ?
                                                                                I have posted a picture of the car in "oldies but goodies" in the files
                                                                                section ...Thanks for the help , James
                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8683 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
                                                                                I remember those cars as a kid--the Navy was still using Blimps in
                                                                                Anti-Submarine Warfare patrols out of Moffett Field NAS along US 101 near
                                                                                Mountain View. They also had a 44-ton Whitcomb center-cab diesel to switch
                                                                                the base, which also has facilities that became part of NASA. So your
                                                                                search should include Navy facilities where these airships were based. Also
                                                                                search "USS Akron" and "USS Macon"--the US Navy's main "Zeppelins" or
                                                                                Dirigibles. The Macon is presently well-preserved but the cold waters of
                                                                                the North Pacific off Point Sur, CA, but was based at Moffett. Should give
                                                                                you a few good leads to follow up. gj


                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                From: "prr_homewood_jct" <ple38@...>
                                                                                To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:31 AM
                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Ahm Helium Container Cars ?


                                                                                > Hello, Great stuff on the group , lots of good information and help,
                                                                                > that's what i am looking for.
                                                                                > Question , Does anyone know the loading or unloading designs of the AHM
                                                                                > helium container car ? i can guess what the container itself looks
                                                                                > like , but the side frame structure of the car body has me confused ?
                                                                                > I have posted a picture of the car in "oldies but goodies" in the files
                                                                                > section ...Thanks for the help , James
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                                                >
                                                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >


                                                                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                Version: 8.0.234 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1953 - Release Date: 02/14/09
                                                                                18:01:00
                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8684 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
                                                                                also--I believe that these cars were tank cars rather than container cars.
                                                                                You'll note that the framing does not show any openable areas through which
                                                                                the containers would have been moved. gj

                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                From: "prr_homewood_jct" <ple38@...>
                                                                                To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:31 AM
                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Ahm Helium Container Cars ?


                                                                                > Hello, Great stuff on the group , lots of good information and help,
                                                                                > that's what i am looking for.
                                                                                > Question , Does anyone know the loading or unloading designs of the AHM
                                                                                > helium container car ? i can guess what the container itself looks
                                                                                > like , but the side frame structure of the car body has me confused ?
                                                                                > I have posted a picture of the car in "oldies but goodies" in the files
                                                                                > section ...Thanks for the help , James
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                                                >
                                                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >


                                                                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                Version: 8.0.234 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1953 - Release Date: 02/14/09
                                                                                18:01:00
                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8685 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                Subject: Re: Nickel Plate Products
                                                                                Hello Mike, Nickel Plate Products (NPP) did not come around until around 1972, so they would not qualify as an early brass importer (imported brass started around 1950) or, in most respects, as vintage for that matter. They, like most other importers of brass models, imported models made by a variety of brass makers, therefore, you really can't generalize any of them for rating of their quality. They would need to be graded for quality individually like any other model. That being said, I have many models imported by NPP and if I were to grade them overall, I would say they are "okay" products with a fair amount of detail and generally good runners, however, I would not consider them as better than many earlier models and no comparison to today's imported models. They imported several steam engines that had slightly out of scale dimensions, the soldering did not hold on many details parts on several of their models, the gearboxes and motors left a lot to be desired on some, as well. They did import some nice passenger equipment and some fairly nice streamlined steam engines that performed pretty good (although under weight in general). There version of the Pioneer Zephyr streamlined unit train looked good but ran poorly and made a lot of noise. The list goes on....

                                                                                I my opinion, mediocre is the word that comes to mind.

                                                                                Hope it helps, Brian L. 


                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                From: Mike <hspanier@...>
                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                Sent: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 6:53 am
                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Nickel Plate Products

                                                                                Is Nickel Plate Products who was basically and early importer of brass
                                                                                within the scope of the group? If so I would be most interested in your
                                                                                opinion of NKP in general? How well the product performed? Was it a
                                                                                major or minor player in early brass? Does the product run well? Anyone
                                                                                running any of their products?

                                                                                I presume by today's operating and detail standards it was a start.
                                                                                Very much appreciate you views.

                                                                                Very best, Mike Spanier
                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8686 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                Subject: Re: Nickel Plate Products
                                                                                Building the list of "early brass importers" would start with International Models.  Next generation would be Bill Ryan's Pacific Fast Mail and Max Gray's Perfection Scale Models.    PFM was mostly HO with an occasional O or On3 model, Max Gray was more O Scale oriented, frequently doing the same model in both HO and O.  These two brought personal supervision to the business--making trips to Japan to inspect progress and make sure that what was being built was done right.They had pilot models made and checked, revised as necessary to bring quality models to the US market.  All other brass imports descend from these, in my view..  gj
                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                From: bslook@...
                                                                                Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 8:10 AM
                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Nickel Plate Products

                                                                                Hello Mike, Nickel Plate Products (NPP) did not come around until around 1972, so they would not qualify as an early brass importer (imported brass started around 1950) or, in most respects, as vintage for that matter. They, like most other importers of brass models, imported models made by a variety of brass makers, therefore, you really can't generalize any of them for rating of their quality. They would need to be graded for quality individually like any other model. That being said, I have many models imported by NPP and if I were to grade them overall, I would say they are "okay" products with a fair amount of detail and generally good runners, however, I would not consider them as better than many earlier models and no comparison to today's imported models. They imported several steam engines that had slightly out of scale dimensions, the soldering did not hold on many details parts on several of their models, the gearboxes and motors left a lot to be desired on some, as well. They did import some nice passenger equipment and some fairly nice streamlined steam engines that performed pretty good (although under weight in general). There version of the Pioneer Zephyr streamlined unit train looked good but ran poorly and made a lot of noise. The list goes on....

                                                                                I my opinion, mediocre is the word that comes to mind.

                                                                                Hope it helps, Brian L. 


                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                From: Mike <hspanier@...>
                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                Sent: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 6:53 am
                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Nickel Plate Products

                                                                                Is Nickel Plate Products who was basically and early importer of brass
                                                                                within the scope of the group? If so I would be most interested in your
                                                                                opinion of NKP in general? How well the product performed? Was it a
                                                                                major or minor player in early brass? Does the product run well? Anyone
                                                                                running any of their products?

                                                                                I presume by today's operating and detail standards it was a start.
                                                                                Very much appreciate you views.

                                                                                Very best, Mike Spanier


                                                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1953 - Release Date: 02/14/09 18:01:00
                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8687 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
                                                                                The tanks were part of the car.  Loading/unloading was done through an enclosed cabinet on the end of the car.

                                                                                Don in VA
                                                                                ===================================

                                                                                Glenn476 wrote:

                                                                                also--I believe that these cars were tank cars rather than container cars.
                                                                                You'll note that the framing does not show any openable areas through which
                                                                                the containers would have been moved. gj

                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                From: "prr_homewood_ jct" <ple38@comcast. net>
                                                                                To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:31 AM
                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Ahm Helium Container Cars ?

                                                                                > Hello, Great stuff on the group , lots of good information and help,
                                                                                > that's what i am looking for.
                                                                                > Question , Does anyone know the loading or unloading designs of the AHM
                                                                                > helium container car ? i can guess what the container itself looks
                                                                                > like , but the side frame structure of the car body has me confused ?
                                                                                > I have posted a picture of the car in "oldies but goodies" in the files
                                                                                > section ...Thanks for the help , James
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                >
                                                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >

                                                                                ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                Version: 8.0.234 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1953 - Release Date: 02/14/09
                                                                                18:01:00
                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8688 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                Subject: Can Anyone Identify This Car
                                                                                Hi Ya'll,
                                                                                 
                                                                                I suspect this car was made by Ulrich, however am not totally sure, maybe someone on the list can identify it, as you can plainly see, this gondola needs a decent paint job, am also wondering, would this car look good in Boxcar Red? What roads ran this type of car? I know that the D&RGW had plenty of this type car on its narrow gauge lines, but did they run them on the standard gauge as well??????:o)
                                                                                 
                                                                                Gary W

                                                                                 
                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8689 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                Subject: I guess pictures would help!
                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                  Gee Guys, I'm sorry, I sent the last message before I attached the pix, here they are!!!!!!:o)
                                                                                   
                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                   

                                                                                   
                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8690 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                  Subject: Re: I guess pictures would help!
                                                                                  The Ulrich cars I most often saw of this type of GS gon were lettered Union Pacific and were box car red/brown.  I do not know what roads used them.
                                                                                  Don in VA
                                                                                  =================================================

                                                                                  Gary Woodard wrote:
                                                                                  Gee Guys, I'm sorry, I sent the last message before I attached the pix, here they are!!!!!!:o)
                                                                                   
                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                   

                                                                                   
                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!







                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8691 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                  Subject: Re: Nickel Plate Products
                                                                                  bslook@... wrote:
                                                                                  > Their version of the Pioneer
                                                                                  > Zephyr streamlined unit train looked good but ran poorly and made a lot
                                                                                  > of noise. The list goes on....

                                                                                  I have one of those models, which I bought for $300 from a dealer at
                                                                                  the National Train Show when it was in San Jose. (1999? 2000?) It
                                                                                  suffered from a cracked plastic gear in the drive train, which I was
                                                                                  able to get fixed for about $30 using an NWSL metal gear making it more
                                                                                  valuable now than what I paid for it. Yes, it is noisy.

                                                                                  --

                                                                                  Rick Jones

                                                                                  "Experience is the thing you have left when everything else is gone."
                                                                                  -Stephen Wright
                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8692 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                  Subject: Re: I guess pictures would help!
                                                                                  definitely on the Rio Grande, also SP and several other western roads.  This car was to the western roads what the 2-bay, 50 ton hopper was in the east.  One common scheme on the Ulrich cars was "Utah Coal Route" which is now the Utah Railway, runs paired track over Soldier Summit--see current Railfan & Railroad magazine.  The Grande also had a couple hundred of these on the narrow gauge as well--officially known as "National Dump Cars" for their builder.   Hauled a lot of coal in these--also used in ash and cinder service at the engine terminals;  gj
                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 9:25 AM
                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] I guess pictures would help!

                                                                                  Gee Guys, I'm sorry, I sent the last message before I attached the pix, here they are!!!!!!:o)
                                                                                   
                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8693 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                  Subject: Re: I guess pictures would help!
                                                                                  Note that these cars were ALL bottom doors, Ulrich cast the ones over the trucks closed.  gj
                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 9:25 AM
                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] I guess pictures would help!

                                                                                  Gee Guys, I'm sorry, I sent the last message before I attached the pix, here they are!!!!!!:o)
                                                                                   
                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8694 From: rrdeffinger@msn.com Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                  Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                    The picture you posted is of a "container car", according to the AHM website. If you go to:
                                                                                    http://tycotrain.tripod.com.ahmhoscaletraincollorsresource/index.html.
                                                                                    There are pictures of the Helium cars in all the different names sold.
                                                                                    There were still at least one car still in use that goes to Middletown, Ohio near the Armco Steel Plant there. I saw it just a year or two ago. Not sure if it was still being used to carry helium for the door near the end was open to operate it.
                                                                                    I attached a picture of an AHM Wabash car to this.
                                                                                    Bob D.


                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                    From: glenn476@...
                                                                                    Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 07:39:37 -0800
                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ahm Helium Container Cars ?


                                                                                    I remember those cars as a kid--the Navy was still using Blimps in
                                                                                    Anti-Submarine Warfare patrols out of Moffett Field NAS along US 101 near
                                                                                    Mountain View. They also had a 44-ton Whitcomb center-cab diesel to switch
                                                                                    the base, which also has facilities that became part of NASA. So your
                                                                                    search should include Navy facilities where these airships were based. Also
                                                                                    search "USS Akron" and "USS Macon"--the US Navy's main "Zeppelins" or
                                                                                    Dirigibles. The Macon is presently well-preserved but the cold waters of
                                                                                    the North Pacific off Point Sur, CA, but was based at Moffett. Should give
                                                                                    you a few good leads to follow up. gj

                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                    From: "prr_homewood_ jct" <ple38@comcast. net>
                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:31 AM
                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Ahm Helium Container Cars ?

                                                                                    > Hello, Great stuff on the group , lots of good information and help,
                                                                                    > that's what i am looking for.
                                                                                    > Question , Does anyone know the loading or unloading designs of the AHM
                                                                                    > helium container car ? i can guess what the container itself looks
                                                                                    > like , but the side frame structure of the car body has me confused ?
                                                                                    > I have posted a picture of the car in "oldies but goodies" in the files
                                                                                    > section ...Thanks for the help , James
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >

                                                                                    ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                    Version: 8.0.234 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1953 - Release Date: 02/14/09
                                                                                    18:01:00



                                                                                    Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it out.
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8695 From: rrdeffinger@msn.com Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
                                                                                    Error in the link, try:
                                                                                    Http://tycotrain.tripod.com/ahmhoscaletrainscollectorsresource/
                                                                                    they have AHM and others listed there.
                                                                                    Bob D.


                                                                                    To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                    From: rrdeffinger@...
                                                                                    Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 11:24:07 -0800
                                                                                    Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Ahm Helium Container Cars ?


                                                                                    The picture you posted is of a "container car", according to the AHM website. If you go to:
                                                                                    http://tycotrain. tripod.com. ahmhoscaletrainc ollorsresource/ index.html.
                                                                                    There are pictures of the Helium cars in all the different names sold.
                                                                                    There were still at least one car still in use that goes to Middletown, Ohio near the Armco Steel Plant there. I saw it just a year or two ago. Not sure if it was still being used to carry helium for the door near the end was open to operate it.
                                                                                    I attached a picture of an AHM Wabash car to this.
                                                                                    Bob D.


                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                    From: glenn476@4fast. net
                                                                                    Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 07:39:37 -0800
                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ahm Helium Container Cars ?


                                                                                    I remember those cars as a kid--the Navy was still using Blimps in
                                                                                    Anti-Submarine Warfare patrols out of Moffett Field NAS along US 101 near
                                                                                    Mountain View. They also had a 44-ton Whitcomb center-cab diesel to switch
                                                                                    the base, which also has facilities that became part of NASA. So your
                                                                                    search should include Navy facilities where these airships were based. Also
                                                                                    search "USS Akron" and "USS Macon"--the US Navy's main "Zeppelins" or
                                                                                    Dirigibles. The Macon is presently well-preserved but the cold waters of
                                                                                    the North Pacific off Point Sur, CA, but was based at Moffett. Should give
                                                                                    you a few good leads to follow up. gj

                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                    From: "prr_homewood_ jct" <ple38@comcast. net>
                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:31 AM
                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Ahm Helium Container Cars ?

                                                                                    > Hello, Great stuff on the group , lots of good information and help,
                                                                                    > that's what i am looking for.
                                                                                    > Question , Does anyone know the loading or unloading designs of the AHM
                                                                                    > helium container car ? i can guess what the container itself looks
                                                                                    > like , but the side frame structure of the car body has me confused ?
                                                                                    > I have posted a picture of the car in "oldies but goodies" in the files
                                                                                    > section ...Thanks for the help , James
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >

                                                                                    ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                    Version: 8.0.234 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1953 - Release Date: 02/14/09
                                                                                    18:01:00



                                                                                    Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it out.



                                                                                    Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it out.
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8696 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
                                                                                    Yes--those were definitely tank cars, not container cars.  Wonder what the steel mill used helium for?  or perhaps received/shipped some other compressed gas in them?  gj
                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 11:24 AM
                                                                                    Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Ahm Helium Container Cars ?

                                                                                    The picture you posted is of a "container car", according to the AHM website. If you go to:
                                                                                    http://tycotrain.tripod.com.ahmhoscaletraincollorsresource/index.html.
                                                                                    There are pictures of the Helium cars in all the different names sold.
                                                                                    There were still at least one car still in use that goes to Middletown, Ohio near the Armco Steel Plant there. I saw it just a year or two ago. Not sure if it was still being used to carry helium for the door near the end was open to operate it.
                                                                                    I attached a picture of an AHM Wabash car to this.
                                                                                    Bob D.


                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                    From: glenn476@...
                                                                                    Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 07:39:37 -0800
                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ahm Helium Container Cars ?


                                                                                    I remember those cars as a kid--the Navy was still using Blimps in
                                                                                    Anti-Submarine Warfare patrols out of Moffett Field NAS along US 101 near
                                                                                    Mountain View. They also had a 44-ton Whitcomb center-cab diesel to switch
                                                                                    the base, which also has facilities that became part of NASA. So your
                                                                                    search should include Navy facilities where these airships were based. Also
                                                                                    search "USS Akron" and "USS Macon"--the US Navy's main "Zeppelins" or
                                                                                    Dirigibles. The Macon is presently well-preserved but the cold waters of
                                                                                    the North Pacific off Point Sur, CA, but was based at Moffett. Should give
                                                                                    you a few good leads to follow up. gj

                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                    From: "prr_homewood_ jct" <ple38@comcast. net>
                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:31 AM
                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Ahm Helium Container Cars ?

                                                                                    > Hello, Great stuff on the group , lots of good information and help,
                                                                                    > that's what i am looking for.
                                                                                    > Question , Does anyone know the loading or unloading designs of the AHM
                                                                                    > helium container car ? i can guess what the container itself looks
                                                                                    > like , but the side frame structure of the car body has me confused ?
                                                                                    > I have posted a picture of the car in "oldies but goodies" in the files
                                                                                    > section ...Thanks for the help , James
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >

                                                                                    ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                    Version: 8.0.234 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1953 - Release Date: 02/14/09
                                                                                    18:01:00



                                                                                    Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it out.


                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                    Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1953 - Release Date: 02/14/09 18:01:00
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8697 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                    Subject: RUN vintage
                                                                                        Don D,
                                                                                              I finally became a full member of the site "for those that collect and RUN" vintage HO.. After 5 years without a layout I finally can run my items again. In the last few days I have had the chance to run (not just back and forth on test track) a couple of my vintage collection.     1-  George Stock GG-1    2- Varney Post War Super Consolidation     3- Schrader EP-4.  These are some of the engines I didn't have when I had my old layout. It was fun to watch them perform and they really can. Next up my Winton Allegheny
                                                                                                                                                                                        Jim H 
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8698 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
                                                                                    These cars were primarily used by the U.S. Navy.  The Ambroid car provides U.S. Navy decals.  I also have some photos of the prototype and they have U.S. Navy lettering.  I believe they were used to fill up the Navy blimps.  I expect Goodyear used them also.  One day I will actually build my helium car.  I have a lot of other projects in front of it.
                                                                                    Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC



                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                    From: glenn476@...
                                                                                    Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 11:42:20 -0800
                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ahm Helium Container Cars ?


                                                                                    Yes--those were definitely tank cars, not container cars.  Wonder what the steel mill used helium for?  or perhaps received/shipped some other compressed gas in them?  gj
                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 11:24 AM
                                                                                    Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Ahm Helium Container Cars ?

                                                                                    The picture you posted is of a "container car", according to the AHM website. If you go to:
                                                                                    http://tycotrain. tripod.com. ahmhoscaletrainc ollorsresource/ index.html.
                                                                                    There are pictures of the Helium cars in all the different names sold.
                                                                                    There were still at least one car still in use that goes to Middletown, Ohio near the Armco Steel Plant there. I saw it just a year or two ago. Not sure if it was still being used to carry helium for the door near the end was open to operate it.
                                                                                    I attached a picture of an AHM Wabash car to this.
                                                                                    Bob D.


                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                    From: glenn476@4fast. net
                                                                                    Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 07:39:37 -0800
                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ahm Helium Container Cars ?


                                                                                    I remember those cars as a kid--the Navy was still using Blimps in
                                                                                    Anti-Submarine Warfare patrols out of Moffett Field NAS along US 101 near
                                                                                    Mountain View. They also had a 44-ton Whitcomb center-cab diesel to switch
                                                                                    the base, which also has facilities that became part of NASA. So your
                                                                                    search should include Navy facilities where these airships were based. Also
                                                                                    search "USS Akron" and "USS Macon"--the US Navy's main "Zeppelins" or
                                                                                    Dirigibles. The Macon is presently well-preserved but the cold waters of
                                                                                    the North Pacific off Point Sur, CA, but was based at Moffett. Should give
                                                                                    you a few good leads to follow up. gj

                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                    From: "prr_homewood_ jct" <ple38@comcast. net>
                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:31 AM
                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Ahm Helium Container Cars ?

                                                                                    > Hello, Great stuff on the group , lots of good information and help,
                                                                                    > that's what i am looking for.
                                                                                    > Question , Does anyone know the loading or unloading designs of the AHM
                                                                                    > helium container car ? i can guess what the container itself looks
                                                                                    > like , but the side frame structure of the car body has me confused ?
                                                                                    > I have posted a picture of the car in "oldies but goodies" in the files
                                                                                    > section ...Thanks for the help , James
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >

                                                                                    ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                    Version: 8.0.234 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1953 - Release Date: 02/14/09
                                                                                    18:01:00



                                                                                    Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it out.



                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                    Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1953 - Release Date: 02/14/09 18:01:00


                                                                                    Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. See how it works.
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8699 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Nickel Plate Products
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > I my opinion, mediocre is the word that comes to mind.
                                                                                    I agree, consider NPP in the same category as , to name a few,
                                                                                    Hallmark, Alco, NJCBr, Trains Inc... Brian stated correctly that they
                                                                                    bought their stuff from several sources, and both accuracy and
                                                                                    mechanical quality was doubtful. First they got their models mostly from
                                                                                    KMT, when production shifted to Korea some short lived manufacturers
                                                                                    made their appearance... But this was the time when brass prices went
                                                                                    up, and subsequently only those who offered superior quality survived.

                                                                                    From my NPP models, the as a positeve example the Milwaukee passenger
                                                                                    cars come to my mind... on the negative side, the Milwaukee Boxcab set,
                                                                                    which has details from both road locos and switcher versions
                                                                                    incorporated, + a snowplow pilot that is completely wrong, and a all
                                                                                    weather window on the firemans side that the prototype never had. Suydam
                                                                                    did much better with his models, many years earlier.

                                                                                    Gerold
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8700 From: Gary Woodard Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: I guess pictures would help!
                                                                                    Hi gj,
                                                                                     
                                                                                    That is the case here as well, so this is definately an Ulrich????:o)
                                                                                     
                                                                                    Gary W
                                                                                     

                                                                                     
                                                                                    Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                    From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 2:21:29 PM
                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I guess pictures would help!

                                                                                    Note that these cars were ALL bottom doors, Ulrich cast the ones over the trucks closed.  gj
                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 9:25 AM
                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] I guess pictures would help!

                                                                                    Gee Guys, I'm sorry, I sent the last message before I attached the pix, here they are!!!!!!:o)
                                                                                     
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8701 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: RUN vintage
                                                                                    Congratulations! <G>

                                                                                    Don
                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                    don.dellmann@...
                                                                                    http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                    http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                    From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 2:14 PM
                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] RUN vintage


                                                                                    Don D,
                                                                                    I finally became a full member of the site "for those that collect
                                                                                    and RUN" vintage HO.. After 5 years without a layout I finally can run my
                                                                                    items again. In the last few days I have had the chance to run (not just
                                                                                    back and forth on test track) a couple of my vintage collection. 1-
                                                                                    George Stock GG-1 2- Varney Post War Super Consolidation 3- Schrader
                                                                                    EP-4. These are some of the engines I didn't have when I had my old layout.
                                                                                    It was fun to watch them perform and they really can. Next up my Winton
                                                                                    Allegheny

                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8702 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: I guess pictures would help!
                                                                                    99.999% certain   gj
                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:26 PM
                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I guess pictures would help!

                                                                                    Hi gj,
                                                                                     
                                                                                    That is the case here as well, so this is definately an Ulrich????:o)
                                                                                     
                                                                                    Gary W
                                                                                     

                                                                                     
                                                                                    Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                    From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 2:21:29 PM
                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I guess pictures would help!

                                                                                    Note that these cars were ALL bottom doors, Ulrich cast the ones over the trucks closed.  gj
                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 9:25 AM
                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] I guess pictures would help!

                                                                                    Gee Guys, I'm sorry, I sent the last message before I attached the pix, here they are!!!!!!:o)
                                                                                     


                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                    Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.23/1953 - Release Date: 02/14/09 18:01:00
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8703 From: prr_homewood_jct Date: 2/15/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Not the Helium car , Sorry
                                                                                    i was thinking of the container carrier car with the v shaped openings
                                                                                    on the sides of the car .. what was the purpose of this design ?
                                                                                    thanks again, James
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8704 From: Mike Sloane Date: 2/16/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: I guess pictures would help!
                                                                                    That is an Ulrich car - I have one that I bought new, a long, long time
                                                                                    ago. See:
                                                                                    <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/mantuaulrich.html>

                                                                                    It is an OK model, but I was never impressed by it. I suppose that I
                                                                                    could spend a little time with it and improve the details and performance.

                                                                                    Mike

                                                                                    Gary Woodard wrote:
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Gee Guys, I'm sorry, I sent the last message before I attached the pix,
                                                                                    > here they are!!!!!!:o)
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Gary W
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8705 From: frank Date: 2/16/2009
                                                                                    Subject: cgl's Unknown Mech #1
                                                                                    This is a drive made by Hobbyline for their Fainbanks Morris H10-44. I
                                                                                    Have a few of then.
                                                                                    frank
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8706 From: frank Date: 2/16/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Photos posted------------ frank toptrain album
                                                                                    I posted three photos. The first for the englishman clg's for his
                                                                                    unknown drive. The second and third are 0-4-0c camelbacks. The firsr is
                                                                                    a cast and brass Mantua. the second a all brass camel from the same
                                                                                    time period. the late 50's. I think the all brass one is a
                                                                                    International.
                                                                                    frank
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8707 From: mrslandser Date: 2/16/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Pacific Pike
                                                                                    A few weeks ago, I acquired a Pacific Pike Rio Grande 2-6-0. Although
                                                                                    I have been a model railroader for more decades than I care to count, I
                                                                                    don't have an recollection of Pacific Pike (of course, we won't go into
                                                                                    what my wife of 48 years says I don't recollect). After seeing the
                                                                                    info on the N-Plate line, I am hopeful that someone may be able to
                                                                                    enlighten me on Pacific Pike.

                                                                                    Incidentally, I have $35.00 invested in this little Mogul, so can't be
                                                                                    financially hit too bad!

                                                                                    Thanks

                                                                                    Jack
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8708 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/16/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Pacific Pike
                                                                                    I vaguely remember the brand--probably early sixties. gj
                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                    From: "mrslandser" <mrslandser@...>
                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                    Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 7:37 AM
                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Pacific Pike


                                                                                    >A few weeks ago, I acquired a Pacific Pike Rio Grande 2-6-0. Although
                                                                                    > I have been a model railroader for more decades than I care to count, I
                                                                                    > don't have an recollection of Pacific Pike (of course, we won't go into
                                                                                    > what my wife of 48 years says I don't recollect). After seeing the
                                                                                    > info on the N-Plate line, I am hopeful that someone may be able to
                                                                                    > enlighten me on Pacific Pike.
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Incidentally, I have $35.00 invested in this little Mogul, so can't be
                                                                                    > financially hit too bad!
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Thanks
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Jack
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > ------------------------------------
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >


                                                                                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                    Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.24/1954 - Release Date: 02/15/09
                                                                                    18:09:00
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8709 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 2/16/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
                                                                                    There was a U.S. blimp base on the SP Tillamook, Oregon branch. The base had two huge hangers. One still exists and houses an air craft museum.

                                                                                    Earl Poulsen
                                                                                    Vancouver, WA

                                                                                    LAT 45 degrees, 40 minutes, 6 seconds X LONG Minus 122 degrees, 39 minutes and 46 seconds
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8710 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/16/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Nickel Plate Products
                                                                                    Most NPP products were fabricated by KMT, a reliable Japanese shop
                                                                                    that did a fine and very neat job of replicating the plans and specs
                                                                                    that were provided to them by the importer. I have quite a few of
                                                                                    their interesting products (they covered many prototypes that I have
                                                                                    liked), and I have yet to uncover any of the cold solder joints that
                                                                                    plagued so many other shops.

                                                                                    For the most part, the bodies, boilers, and general outlines of their
                                                                                    locomotives and rolling stock are pretty accurate replications of the
                                                                                    prototypes- important to me-, if not always in detailed measurements,
                                                                                    at least to casual everyday view. This attribute alone has made many
                                                                                    of their models excellent fodder for those interested and motivated in
                                                                                    serious upgrades and superdetailing.

                                                                                    Economic shortcuts were taken at the behest of the importer, e.g.
                                                                                    using the same relatively small and lightly-built DL&W 4-6-4 chassis
                                                                                    (with all details) under both C&NW and Milwaukee Road 4-6-4s, much
                                                                                    larger and much different engines in all respects. Values for these
                                                                                    latter engines have suffered greatly as a result. These faults are
                                                                                    correctible, but only with a lot of work and expense.

                                                                                    The plastic gear train on the power truck of the PIONEER ZEPHYR were
                                                                                    notoriously made of uncured plastic, and they soon shrunk, and cracked
                                                                                    in the process. That the motor had only three poles did not make
                                                                                    things better. I replaced all the plastic gears with new brass gears,
                                                                                    replaced the motor with a new Sagami, and the train now operates just
                                                                                    fine (with locomotive heavily weighted over the power truck).

                                                                                    The painted Rock Island ROCKET diesel locomotive (an EMD TA, a very
                                                                                    rarely-modeled locomotive) also has a very poor and very cheap three
                                                                                    pole motor, many of which have failed. The typical KMT open gear
                                                                                    towers make it also pretty noisy- but not significantly different than
                                                                                    most other model diesels of the same era.

                                                                                    The quality of the very complex red/maroon/silver locomotive paint
                                                                                    livery varies from near perfect, to perfectly awful. If the former,
                                                                                    i.e. very good/perfect, this very handsome locomotive and locomotive
                                                                                    can become a show piece. If the latter, only a complete re-do will
                                                                                    suffice, and IMHO it is not worth it.

                                                                                    I can go on and on....but I won't.

                                                                                    Denny
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8711 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/16/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
                                                                                    also one at Port Townsend, WA--was used in a movie--I think "An Officer and
                                                                                    a Gentleman". None of the blimp hangars were as large as the big hangar at
                                                                                    Moffet that was built to house the big Zeppelins. there are two smaller
                                                                                    hangars there that housed the blimps.
                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                    From: "Earl Poulsen" <shyguy_98665@...>
                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                    Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 9:32 AM
                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?


                                                                                    > There was a U.S. blimp base on the SP Tillamook, Oregon branch. The base
                                                                                    > had two huge hangers. One still exists and houses an air craft museum.
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Earl Poulsen
                                                                                    > Vancouver, WA
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > LAT 45 degrees, 40 minutes, 6 seconds X LONG Minus 122 degrees, 39 minutes
                                                                                    > and 46 seconds
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > ------------------------------------
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >


                                                                                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                    Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.24/1954 - Release Date: 02/15/09
                                                                                    18:09:00
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8712 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/16/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Nickel Plate Products
                                                                                    Mentioning the RI Rocket with the TA loco--does anyone recall the
                                                                                    Strombecker version of the train? I went thru a couple of them as a kid--I
                                                                                    think they sold for $1.50 at J&J Hobbies in San Carlos. I recently picked
                                                                                    up a set of the cars--with real trucks--but no loco. I'd like to find a
                                                                                    loco--or pass the cars along to someone who has one. gj
                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                    From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...>
                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                    Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 10:42 AM
                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Nickel Plate Products


                                                                                    > Most NPP products were fabricated by KMT, a reliable Japanese shop
                                                                                    > that did a fine and very neat job of replicating the plans and specs
                                                                                    > that were provided to them by the importer. I have quite a few of
                                                                                    > their interesting products (they covered many prototypes that I have
                                                                                    > liked), and I have yet to uncover any of the cold solder joints that
                                                                                    > plagued so many other shops.
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > For the most part, the bodies, boilers, and general outlines of their
                                                                                    > locomotives and rolling stock are pretty accurate replications of the
                                                                                    > prototypes- important to me-, if not always in detailed measurements,
                                                                                    > at least to casual everyday view. This attribute alone has made many
                                                                                    > of their models excellent fodder for those interested and motivated in
                                                                                    > serious upgrades and superdetailing.
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Economic shortcuts were taken at the behest of the importer, e.g.
                                                                                    > using the same relatively small and lightly-built DL&W 4-6-4 chassis
                                                                                    > (with all details) under both C&NW and Milwaukee Road 4-6-4s, much
                                                                                    > larger and much different engines in all respects. Values for these
                                                                                    > latter engines have suffered greatly as a result. These faults are
                                                                                    > correctible, but only with a lot of work and expense.
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > The plastic gear train on the power truck of the PIONEER ZEPHYR were
                                                                                    > notoriously made of uncured plastic, and they soon shrunk, and cracked
                                                                                    > in the process. That the motor had only three poles did not make
                                                                                    > things better. I replaced all the plastic gears with new brass gears,
                                                                                    > replaced the motor with a new Sagami, and the train now operates just
                                                                                    > fine (with locomotive heavily weighted over the power truck).
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > The painted Rock Island ROCKET diesel locomotive (an EMD TA, a very
                                                                                    > rarely-modeled locomotive) also has a very poor and very cheap three
                                                                                    > pole motor, many of which have failed. The typical KMT open gear
                                                                                    > towers make it also pretty noisy- but not significantly different than
                                                                                    > most other model diesels of the same era.
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > The quality of the very complex red/maroon/silver locomotive paint
                                                                                    > livery varies from near perfect, to perfectly awful. If the former,
                                                                                    > i.e. very good/perfect, this very handsome locomotive and locomotive
                                                                                    > can become a show piece. If the latter, only a complete re-do will
                                                                                    > suffice, and IMHO it is not worth it.
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > I can go on and on....but I won't.
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Denny
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > ------------------------------------
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >


                                                                                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                    Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.24/1954 - Release Date: 02/15/09
                                                                                    18:09:00
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8713 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 2/16/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Pacific Pike
                                                                                    Hello Jack, Pacific Pike was an early importer of brass models, roughly from the mid to late 1950's. What they imported were many of the same models sold by other importers of the time. Their most popular model was a USRA 4-6-2 Pacific type. The models themselves were mostly sold to Pacific Pike by Tetsudo Mokie Sha (I may have misspelled the name, but it meant "Train Model Company"). Tetsudo was a train shop in Japan that had sub contractors build ( fairly crude ) brass models in various types and roads. Most were generic and very crude with turned brass details and open gearboxes. They (Tetsudo) made a PRR GG1 which wasn't bad looking, or running for that matter. One of the sub contractors that sold to Tetsudo was Kawai. Kawai is most likely the maker of your 2-6-0. International Model Products imported hundreds of them from around 1954 through 1960. Like International, Pacific Pike purchased models from Tetsudo (and others) and sold them under their own name packaged in Blue and Yellow boxes. Another importer that is seldom seen was Suzuki & Edwards. Like IMP and Pacific Pike, they to bought Tetsudo models and had them packaged as their own. Nathan Polk (Polk's Hobbies NY, NY) used the Aristo-Craft name to import some of the early Tetsudo, as well as, New One models also, if I recall correctly. This was a fairly common practice among the early brass importers. It was easier for importers to travel to Japan an visit one shop to buy what they needed to resell than to try to track down every, hole in the wall, shop and work out a deal with each individual model maker. Bill Ryan of Pacific Fast Mail purchased some of the very earliest models this way, although, PFM quickly revised their way of purchasing and struck exclusive deals with United Models (an organized group of brass makers) Tenshodo, Toby and others, to quickly dominate the market. International finally struck a deal with Akane around 1956  which allowed IMP to drop many of th e Tetsudo and Kawai models which they were having problems in trying to get exclusivity. IMP imported the Akane line until the owner (his name escapes me now) of IMP died in 1960 and IMP ceased importing. As you may know Akane exported / imported under their own name until pick up by Gem Models around 1964. M.B. Austin and Olympic Express were others in this group that purchased models and sold them under their brand name. PFM was one of the first, if not the first to actually commision models rather than buy them "off the shelf" for lack of a better term. I am writing this from my desk at work, and I cannot check my information, so if I got something wrong, I'm sure someone will point it out.

                                                                                    Regards, Brian L.


                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                    From: mrslandser <mrslandser@...>
                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                    Sent: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:37 am
                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Pacific Pike

                                                                                    A few weeks ago, I acquired a Pacific Pike Rio Grande 2-6-0. Although
                                                                                    I have been a model railroader for more decades than I care to count, I
                                                                                    don't have an recollection of Pacific Pike (of course, we won't go into
                                                                                    what my wife of 48 years says I don't recollect). After seeing the
                                                                                    info on the N-Plate line, I am hopeful that someone may be able to
                                                                                    enlighten me on Pacific Pike.

                                                                                    Incidentally, I have $35.00 invested in this little Mogul, so can't be
                                                                                    financially hit too bad!

                                                                                    Thanks

                                                                                    Jack
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8714 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 2/16/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Nickel Plate Products
                                                                                    Denny, I agree with all of your comments. In my earlier post, I was responding to a generalized question asked about the Importer. I pointed out some of the same flaws. I too, have many Kumata made models and I believe they are good models overall. NPP imported a DM&IR 2-10-4 that had some dimension issues, but I can't remember who made that one off the top of my head. Your remarks about the Pioneer Zephyr are true, not only for Nickel Plate's model, but Pacific Traction's model also. Both (totally different models) had plastic gear problems and noise, noise, noise. NWSL made replacements for both models. That's all I wanted to add.

                                                                                    Brian L.


                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                    From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                    Sent: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 1:42 pm
                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Nickel Plate Products

                                                                                    Most NPP products were fabricated by KMT, a reliable Japanese shop
                                                                                    that did a fine and very neat job of replicating the plans and specs
                                                                                    that were provided to them by the importer. I have quite a few of
                                                                                    their interesting products (they covered many prototypes that I have
                                                                                    liked), and I have yet to uncover any of the cold solder joints that
                                                                                    plagued so many other shops.

                                                                                    For the most part, the bodies, boilers, and general outlines of their
                                                                                    locomotives and rolling stock are pretty accurate replications of the
                                                                                    prototypes- important to me-, if not always in detailed measurements,
                                                                                    at least to casual everyday view. This attribute alone has made many
                                                                                    of their models excellent fodder for those interested and motivated in
                                                                                    serious upgrades and superdetailing.

                                                                                    Economic shortcuts were taken at the behest of the importer, e.g.
                                                                                    using the same relatively small and lightly-built DL&W 4-6-4 chassis
                                                                                    (with all details) under both C&NW and Milwaukee Road 4-6-4s, much
                                                                                    larger and much different engines in all respects. Values for these
                                                                                    latter engines have suffered greatly as a result. These faults are
                                                                                    correctible, but only with a lot of work and expense.

                                                                                    The plastic gear train on the power truck of the PIONEER ZEPHYR were
                                                                                    notoriously made of uncured plastic, and they soon shrunk, and cracked
                                                                                    in the process. That the motor had only three poles did not make
                                                                                    things better. I replaced all the plastic gears with new brass gears,
                                                                                    replaced the motor with a new Sagami, and the train now operates just
                                                                                    fine (with locomotive heavily weighted over the power truck).

                                                                                    The painted Rock Island ROCKET diesel locomotive (an EMD TA, a very
                                                                                    rarely-modeled locomotive) also has a very poor and very cheap three
                                                                                    pole motor, many of which have failed. The typical KMT open gear
                                                                                    towers make it also pretty noisy- but not significantly different than
                                                                                    most other model diesels of the same era.

                                                                                    The quality of the very complex red/maroon/silver locomotive paint
                                                                                    livery varies from near perfect, to perfectly awful. If the former,
                                                                                    i.e. very good/perfect, this very handsome locomotive and locomotive
                                                                                    can become a show piece. If the latter, only a complete re-do will
                                                                                    suffice, and IMHO it is not worth it.

                                                                                    I can go on and on....but I won't.

                                                                                    Denny
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8715 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/16/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Ahm Helium Container Cars ?
                                                                                    Glenn476 wrote:
                                                                                    > also one at Port Townsend, WA--was used in a movie--I think "An Officer and
                                                                                    > a Gentleman". None of the blimp hangars were as large as the big hangar at
                                                                                    > Moffet that was built to house the big Zeppelins. there are two smaller
                                                                                    > hangars there that housed the blimps.

                                                                                    There's another pair of hangars at Tustin, CA. When the Navy pulled
                                                                                    out the Marines took the site over as a helicopter base. They have since
                                                                                    moved out and AFAIK the site sits unused. You can see aerial photos of
                                                                                    them from Google by searching for Tustin, CA, then zooming in on the
                                                                                    MCAS marked there. Other photos and history available at this site:
                                                                                    http://www.airfields-freeman.com/CA/Airfields_CA_OrangeCo_SE.htm

                                                                                    --

                                                                                    Rick Jones

                                                                                    Can you cry under water?
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8716 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Strombecker Rock Island TA ROCKET
                                                                                    Glenn Joesten inquires about this venerable wood kit model, very
                                                                                    neatly fabricated from milled white or sugar pine. Like many other
                                                                                    model products of this Moline, IL company, this very low priced model
                                                                                    was attractive because Strombecker went to considerable lengths to
                                                                                    make their models accurately proportional in most major dimensions and
                                                                                    contours, even though with its wood wheels, it was in fact designed as
                                                                                    a floor toy. The paper overlays for the locomotive details and the
                                                                                    passenger car windows were also very neatly and accurately done.
                                                                                    IMHO, Strombecker did a much better job of replicating "the real
                                                                                    thing" with these floor toys than many contemporary HO "scale"
                                                                                    manufacturers were in fact doing at the same time.

                                                                                    In the late '40s and '50s, it was relatively popular for HO gauge
                                                                                    modelers to favor converting these Rocket models from floor toys to
                                                                                    actual functioning trains on the track (perusing old MRs of the period
                                                                                    discloses quite a few photos of these trains on various layouts,
                                                                                    including one that sticks in my mind, a longer train pulled by two of
                                                                                    the TA locomotives back to back). Converting these to HO gauge
                                                                                    functional use posed a number of challenges, however:

                                                                                    1) The model was made to 1/8", not 3.5mm/ft. scale (if one places the
                                                                                    Strombecker model next to the NPP model, this difference in scale
                                                                                    becomes very obvious).

                                                                                    2) The attractive sleekness of the streamlined cars depended upon
                                                                                    keeping intact the seamless low skirting along the lower margins of
                                                                                    the car sides. This skirting limited the mounting of functioning
                                                                                    trucks because they would not nestle between the skirts, and if they
                                                                                    did, they would not swivel enough to allow the car to go around any
                                                                                    curves.

                                                                                    3) The locomotive was made up of two solid blocks of milled wood. A
                                                                                    substantial "hollow" had to be milled out for the installation of any
                                                                                    power truck, and if if that was successful, the locomotive weight was
                                                                                    still so light as to hardly be able to drag itself along, much less a
                                                                                    train. The locomotive also had the same skirt issues as the cars.

                                                                                    4) The appearance of the finished product depended to a great degree
                                                                                    on how carefully and completely the wood surfaces were in fact filled,
                                                                                    sanded, and painted. This was not only an esthetic issue, the cemented
                                                                                    paper overlays also depended upon an underlying smooth surface for any
                                                                                    significant longevity.

                                                                                    As a result, too many surviving Strombecker ROCKET models are flawed by:

                                                                                    1) The skirts have been cut away for over-wide, over sized trucks,
                                                                                    most of which have been also mounted to elevate the cars, In this
                                                                                    respect, the lovely flowing proportions common to these car models
                                                                                    (and their prototypes) are to a large degree compromised, and the cars
                                                                                    and locomotives appear to be in flood pants.

                                                                                    2) Wood preparation and paint work is poor, and as a side result, the
                                                                                    paper overlays are peeling, and/or are dog-eared.

                                                                                    With a fresh kit, all of these fundamental issues (save changing
                                                                                    scale!) can be successfully addressed by the skillful modeler, of
                                                                                    course (now, as then), and they have been. If so, the resulting model
                                                                                    can still be a thoroughly attractive "Classic" example of past fine
                                                                                    modeling on any contemporary layout. Options will likely be quite
                                                                                    limited with kits either partially or completely finished, however.
                                                                                    The Casco glue that was included in the kit can be undone by soaking
                                                                                    in water, but this will likely also destroy the paper overlay in the
                                                                                    process.

                                                                                    Denny


                                                                                    Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                    Sacramento
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8717 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Strombecker Rock Island TA ROCKET
                                                                                    I'd love to have a scanned copy of the original flat paper of the
                                                                                    TA ........

                                                                                    Heck, the entire train can be built with contemporary methods from
                                                                                    scans of the original papers. They would be great wrappers on modern
                                                                                    shells, even if scratch built of sheet styrene bulkheads and any of
                                                                                    the several available roofs, floors, or swap-meet car bodies.

                                                                                    If anyone could scan the originals, I'd love to re-scale them,
                                                                                    scratch correct if needed, and cnc-cut the template/wrappers
                                                                                    including cutting open the windows to fit contemporary bodies.

                                                                                    Worst case scenario is to work with scans of the assembled TA's and
                                                                                    cars. That would also work out.

                                                                                    Best to ya'
                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                    Milwaukee Wi, USA


                                                                                    On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:34 AM, Denny Anspach wrote:

                                                                                    > Glenn Joesten inquires about this venerable wood kit model, very
                                                                                    > neatly fabricated from milled white or sugar pine. Like many other
                                                                                    > model products of this Moline, IL company, this very low priced model
                                                                                    > was attractive because Strombecker went to considerable lengths to
                                                                                    > make their models accurately proportional in most major dimensions and
                                                                                    > contours, even though with its wood wheels, it was in fact designed as
                                                                                    > a floor toy. The paper overlays for the locomotive details and the
                                                                                    > passenger car windows were also very neatly and accurately done.
                                                                                    > IMHO, Strombecker did a much better job of replicating "the real
                                                                                    > thing" with these floor toys than many contemporary HO "scale"
                                                                                    > manufacturers were in fact doing at the same time.
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > In the late '40s and '50s, it was relatively popular for HO gauge
                                                                                    > modelers to favor converting these Rocket models from floor toys to
                                                                                    > actual functioning trains on the track (perusing old MRs of the period
                                                                                    > discloses quite a few photos of these trains on various layouts,
                                                                                    > including one that sticks in my mind, a longer train pulled by two of
                                                                                    > the TA locomotives back to back). Converting these to HO gauge
                                                                                    > functional use posed a number of challenges,
                                                                                    > however:...............snip......
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8718 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                    Subject: A vintage car request
                                                                                    I'm uncertain where I have put my swap-meet bought HO pendulum
                                                                                    passenger car.

                                                                                    I'd like to build a train of them via my cnc-cutter.

                                                                                    Could some kind soul please make a high-rez scan of their car side
                                                                                    and send it to me??

                                                                                    I need one as clean as possible, in any format, generally just a good
                                                                                    scan of the car side. It doesn't have to be perfect. I'll be
                                                                                    redrawing and re-scaling from it.

                                                                                    Thanks guys,

                                                                                    Best to ya'
                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                    Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8719 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Strombecker Rock Island TA ROCKET
                                                                                    Denny---thanks for the description--They followed he Rocket with a City of
                                                                                    San Francisco and B&O Columbian train consisting of an E-7 and 3 cars--these
                                                                                    used decals on the locos and had die-cut windows on the car sides. gj
                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                    From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...>
                                                                                    To: "Vintage" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 9:34 AM
                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Strombecker Rock Island TA ROCKET


                                                                                    > Glenn Joesten inquires about this venerable wood kit model, very
                                                                                    > neatly fabricated from milled white or sugar pine. Like many other
                                                                                    > model products of this Moline, IL company, this very low priced model
                                                                                    > was attractive because Strombecker went to considerable lengths to
                                                                                    > make their models accurately proportional in most major dimensions and
                                                                                    > contours, even though with its wood wheels, it was in fact designed as
                                                                                    > a floor toy. The paper overlays for the locomotive details and the
                                                                                    > passenger car windows were also very neatly and accurately done.
                                                                                    > IMHO, Strombecker did a much better job of replicating "the real
                                                                                    > thing" with these floor toys than many contemporary HO "scale"
                                                                                    > manufacturers were in fact doing at the same time.
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > In the late '40s and '50s, it was relatively popular for HO gauge
                                                                                    > modelers to favor converting these Rocket models from floor toys to
                                                                                    > actual functioning trains on the track (perusing old MRs of the period
                                                                                    > discloses quite a few photos of these trains on various layouts,
                                                                                    > including one that sticks in my mind, a longer train pulled by two of
                                                                                    > the TA locomotives back to back). Converting these to HO gauge
                                                                                    > functional use posed a number of challenges, however:
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > 1) The model was made to 1/8", not 3.5mm/ft. scale (if one places the
                                                                                    > Strombecker model next to the NPP model, this difference in scale
                                                                                    > becomes very obvious).
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > 2) The attractive sleekness of the streamlined cars depended upon
                                                                                    > keeping intact the seamless low skirting along the lower margins of
                                                                                    > the car sides. This skirting limited the mounting of functioning
                                                                                    > trucks because they would not nestle between the skirts, and if they
                                                                                    > did, they would not swivel enough to allow the car to go around any
                                                                                    > curves.
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > 3) The locomotive was made up of two solid blocks of milled wood. A
                                                                                    > substantial "hollow" had to be milled out for the installation of any
                                                                                    > power truck, and if if that was successful, the locomotive weight was
                                                                                    > still so light as to hardly be able to drag itself along, much less a
                                                                                    > train. The locomotive also had the same skirt issues as the cars.
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > 4) The appearance of the finished product depended to a great degree
                                                                                    > on how carefully and completely the wood surfaces were in fact filled,
                                                                                    > sanded, and painted. This was not only an esthetic issue, the cemented
                                                                                    > paper overlays also depended upon an underlying smooth surface for any
                                                                                    > significant longevity.
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > As a result, too many surviving Strombecker ROCKET models are flawed by:
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > 1) The skirts have been cut away for over-wide, over sized trucks,
                                                                                    > most of which have been also mounted to elevate the cars, In this
                                                                                    > respect, the lovely flowing proportions common to these car models
                                                                                    > (and their prototypes) are to a large degree compromised, and the cars
                                                                                    > and locomotives appear to be in flood pants.
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > 2) Wood preparation and paint work is poor, and as a side result, the
                                                                                    > paper overlays are peeling, and/or are dog-eared.
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > With a fresh kit, all of these fundamental issues (save changing
                                                                                    > scale!) can be successfully addressed by the skillful modeler, of
                                                                                    > course (now, as then), and they have been. If so, the resulting model
                                                                                    > can still be a thoroughly attractive "Classic" example of past fine
                                                                                    > modeling on any contemporary layout. Options will likely be quite
                                                                                    > limited with kits either partially or completely finished, however.
                                                                                    > The Casco glue that was included in the kit can be undone by soaking
                                                                                    > in water, but this will likely also destroy the paper overlay in the
                                                                                    > process.
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Denny
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                    > Sacramento
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > ------------------------------------
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >


                                                                                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                    Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.25/1957 - Release Date: 02/17/09
                                                                                    07:07:00
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8720 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Really Cheap stuff for sale
                                                                                    List,

                                                                                    Ok, first one who is interested in these items and replies first,
                                                                                    they are yours. I have 12 passenger cars that are very vintage, possibly
                                                                                    from the late 40's and 1950''s time period. I do not need them. A first
                                                                                    thought was to just dump them in the trash. Then reconsidered that these
                                                                                    really may not be junk to someone else. Not sure of the maker. Old
                                                                                    Varney streamlined cars? They are made of mostly wood with some sort of
                                                                                    built up layered sides. The shorty hevyweights are a combination of
                                                                                    materials (tin, cast and wood). The RPO as seen in the pic has a
                                                                                    mailroom interior with pigeon hole letter sorter, racks for bags, stove
                                                                                    etc. Some of the cars have seats. No trucks for any, some have couplers.
                                                                                    The deal, $1.00 per car for a total of $12.00 plus shipping via USPS.
                                                                                    Better than train show prices! Will figure the total cost once I know
                                                                                    where they are heading. Thanks for looking....Gary

                                                                                    http://prrmodels.com/vinho.JPG





                                                                                    Come visit my PRR Pages:

                                                                                    http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/PRR-pages.html
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8721 From: Riverboy Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Really Cheap stuff for sale
                                                                                    Hi Gary,
                                                                                     
                                                                                    It's Tod Dwyer again . If you've had no offers yet , I'll take them , and I PROMISE it will go smoother this time . Let me know .
                                                                                     
                                                                                    Thanks .

                                                                                     


                                                                                    --- On Tue, 2/17/09, mittner@... <mittner@...> wrote:
                                                                                    From: mittner@... <mittner@...>
                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Really Cheap stuff for sale
                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                    Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 2:12 PM

                                                                                    List,

                                                                                    Ok, first one who is interested in these items and replies first,
                                                                                    they are yours. I have 12 passenger cars that are very vintage, possibly
                                                                                    from the late 40's and 1950''s time period. I do not need them. A first
                                                                                    thought was to just dump them in the trash. Then reconsidered that these
                                                                                    really may not be junk to someone else. Not sure of the maker. Old
                                                                                    Varney streamlined cars? They are made of mostly wood with some sort of
                                                                                    built up layered sides. The shorty hevyweights are a combination of
                                                                                    materials (tin, cast and wood). The RPO as seen in the pic has a
                                                                                    mailroom interior with pigeon hole letter sorter, racks for bags, stove
                                                                                    etc. Some of the cars have seats. No trucks for any, some have couplers.
                                                                                    The deal, $1.00 per car for a total of $12.00 plus shipping via USPS.
                                                                                    Better than train show prices! Will figure the total cost once I know
                                                                                    where they are heading. Thanks for looking....Gary

                                                                                    http://prrmodels. com/vinho. JPG

                                                                                    Come visit my PRR Pages:

                                                                                    http://www.angelfir e.com/film/ prrpics/PRR- pages.html
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8722 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Really Cheap stuff for sale
                                                                                    May I buy them???

                                                                                    I'm most interested in the older cars, will scan the streamlined to
                                                                                    make my own custom versions and then make the original streamlined
                                                                                    cars available to another interested listee for a similar low price.

                                                                                    Best to ya'
                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                    Milwaukee Wi, USA


                                                                                    On Feb 17, 2009, at 1:12 PM, mittner@... wrote:

                                                                                    > List,
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Ok, first one who is interested in these items and replies first,
                                                                                    > they are yours. I have 12 passenger cars that are very vintage,
                                                                                    > possibly
                                                                                    > from the late 40's and 1950''s time period. I do not need them. A
                                                                                    > first
                                                                                    > thought was to just dump them in the trash. Then reconsidered that
                                                                                    > these
                                                                                    > really may not be junk to someone else. Not sure of the maker. Old
                                                                                    > Varney streamlined cars? They are made of mostly wood with some
                                                                                    > sort of
                                                                                    > built up layered sides. The shorty hevyweights are a combination of
                                                                                    > materials (tin, cast and wood). The RPO as seen in the pic has a
                                                                                    > mailroom interior with pigeon hole letter sorter, racks for bags,
                                                                                    > stove
                                                                                    > etc. Some of the cars have seats. No trucks for any, some have
                                                                                    > couplers.
                                                                                    > The deal, $1.00 per car for a total of $12.00 plus shipping via USPS.
                                                                                    > Better than train show prices! Will figure the total cost once I know
                                                                                    > where they are heading. Thanks for looking....Gary
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > http://prrmodels.com/vinho.JPG
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Come visit my PRR Pages:
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/PRR-pages.html
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8723 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Really Cheap stuff for sale
                                                                                    mittner@... wrote:
                                                                                    > List,
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > Ok, first one who is interested in these items and replies first,
                                                                                    > they are yours. I have 12 passenger cars that are very vintage, possibly
                                                                                    > from the late 40's and 1950''s time period. I do not need them. A first
                                                                                    > thought was to just dump them in the trash. Then reconsidered that these
                                                                                    > really may not be junk to someone else. Not sure of the maker. Old
                                                                                    > Varney streamlined cars? They are made of mostly wood with some sort of
                                                                                    > built up layered sides. The shorty hevyweights are a combination of
                                                                                    > materials (tin, cast and wood). The RPO as seen in the pic has a
                                                                                    > mailroom interior with pigeon hole letter sorter, racks for bags, stove
                                                                                    > etc. Some of the cars have seats. No trucks for any, some have couplers.
                                                                                    > The deal, $1.00 per car for a total of $12.00 plus shipping via USPS.
                                                                                    > Better than train show prices! Will figure the total cost once I know
                                                                                    > where they are heading. Thanks for looking....Gary
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    > http://prrmodels.com/vinho.JPG
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    >
                                                                                    Hi , would like to buy them... Please let me know if I am first to repond.
                                                                                    my shipping address is : The Vair Shop, 21403 S.80th Avenue, Frankfort
                                                                                    IL 60423. Please let me know the total.

                                                                                    Regards Gerold
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8724 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Really Cheap stuff for sale
                                                                                    Tod, I see you are the first to reply...........

                                                                                    If you are  most interested in the streamlined cars and have little interest in the older cars, can we work out something for the  old-time cars ???

                                                                                    Best to ya'
                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                    Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                    On Feb 17, 2009, at 1:19 PM, Riverboy wrote:

                                                                                    Hi Gary,
                                                                                     
                                                                                    It's Tod Dwyer again . If you've had no offers yet , I'll take them , and I PROMISE it will go smoother this time . Let me know .
                                                                                     
                                                                                    Thanks .

                                                                                     


                                                                                    --- On Tue, 2/17/09, mittner@... <mittner@...> wrote:
                                                                                    From: mittner@... <mittner@...>
                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Really Cheap stuff for sale
                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                    Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 2:12 PM

                                                                                    List,

                                                                                    Ok, first one who is interested in these items and replies first,
                                                                                    they are yours. I have 12 passenger cars that are very vintage, possibly
                                                                                    from the late 40's and 1950''s time period. I do not need them. A first
                                                                                    thought was to just dump them in the trash. Then reconsidered that these
                                                                                    really may not be junk to someone else. Not sure of the maker. Old
                                                                                    Varney streamlined cars? They are made of mostly wood with some sort of
                                                                                    built up layered sides. The shorty hevyweights are a combination of
                                                                                    materials (tin, cast and wood). The RPO as seen in the pic has a
                                                                                    mailroom interior with pigeon hole letter sorter, racks for bags, stove
                                                                                    etc. Some of the cars have seats. No trucks for any, some have couplers.
                                                                                    The deal, $1.00 per car for a total of $12.00 plus shipping via USPS.
                                                                                    Better than train show prices! Will figure the total cost once I know
                                                                                    where they are heading. Thanks for looking....Gary

                                                                                    http://prrmodels. com/vinho. JPG 

                                                                                    Come visit my PRR Pages: 

                                                                                    http://www.angelfir e.com/film/ prrpics/PRR- pages.html
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8725 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Re: Really Cheap stuff for sale
                                                                                    List,

                                                                                    The listing of "Really Cheap stuff for sale" is now spoken for.
                                                                                    However, I am stiff sorting out other stuff so don't be suprised if
                                                                                    something else gets posted later. May not be listed as Really Cheap
                                                                                    stuff but some are just as vintage and I believe priced accordingly.
                                                                                    Thanks, Gary





                                                                                    Come visit my PRR Pages:

                                                                                    http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/PRR-pages.html
                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8726 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                    Subject: Strombecker Rocket and others
                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                          Since there is discussion  going on about the Strombecker Rock Island Rocket I thought I would send these pictures.
                                                                                               The kit for my Rocket has the engine started but the cars still waiting to be done. I have tried to copy an extra set of the cardboard printed sides but haven't had much luck using my printer. The silver does not come out glossy enough but maybe using special photographic paper would be better. Kinko's didn't do to good for me either
                                                                                             The second picture is a mint B&O kit still in original box. Even has the little sheet of sandpaper and the packets of glue you mix with water to assembly.
                                                                                             Some where in this house I have a completed City of San Francisco set. Still in boxes somewhere when we moved 5 years ago.This set has a B unit ,sold separate from the set. It came in it's own box. I have it too but is missing in action with the set.
                                                                                                 Hope this adds to the discussion.
                                                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8727 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                      Subject: Re: Really Cheap stuff for sale
                                                                                      Gary,
                                                                                       
                                                                                      I'm very interested. Live in NJ.
                                                                                       
                                                                                      Steve
                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:12 PM
                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Really Cheap stuff for sale

                                                                                      List,
                                                                                        
                                                                                         Ok, first one who is interested in these items and replies first,
                                                                                      they are yours. I have 12 passenger cars that are very vintage, possibly
                                                                                      from the late 40's and 1950''s time period. I do not need them. A first
                                                                                      thought was to just dump them in the trash. Then reconsidered that these
                                                                                      really may not be junk to someone else.  Not sure of the maker. Old
                                                                                      Varney streamlined cars? They are made of mostly wood with some sort of
                                                                                      built up layered sides. The shorty hevyweights are a combination of
                                                                                      materials (tin, cast and wood). The RPO as seen in the pic has a
                                                                                      mailroom interior with pigeon hole letter sorter, racks for bags, stove
                                                                                      etc. Some of the cars have seats. No trucks for any, some have couplers.
                                                                                      The deal, $1.00 per car for a total of $12.00 plus shipping via USPS.
                                                                                      Better than train show prices! Will figure the total cost once I know
                                                                                      where they are heading. Thanks for looking....Gary

                                                                                      http://prrmodels.com/vinho.JPG





                                                                                      Come visit my PRR Pages: 

                                                                                      http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/PRR-pages.html



                                                                                      ------------------------------------

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                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8728 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                      Subject: Re: Strombecker Rocket and others
                                                                                      Jim, 

                                                                                      I can laser print in black on  silver paper to make accurate copies of those cars........ In fact I have some mirror-chrome  heavy paper I want to run through the cnc-cutter. I recently found a source for letter sized sheets of  various matte and gloss metal-papers.

                                                                                      Anyone want a Gold Car ???

                                                                                      Best to ya'
                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                      Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                      On Feb 17, 2009, at 2:08 PM, Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                          Since there is discussion  going on about the Strombecker Rock Island Rocket I thought I would send these pictures.
                                                                                               The kit for my Rocket has the engine started but the cars still waiting to be done. I have tried to copy an extra set of the cardboard printed sides but haven't had much luck using my printer. The silver does not come out glossy enough but maybe using special photographic paper would be better. Kinko's didn't do to good for me either
                                                                                             The second picture is a mint B&O kit still in original box. Even has the little sheet of sandpaper and the packets of glue you mix with water to assembly.
                                                                                             Some where in this house I have a completed City of San Francisco set. Still in boxes somewhere when we moved 5 years ago.This set has a B unit ,sold separate from the set. It came in it's own box. I have it too but is missing in action with the set.
                                                                                                 Hope this adds to the discussion.


                                                                                      <IMG_2853_1.JPG><IMG_2854_2.JPG>
                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8729 From: Chris B Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                      Subject: Re: Strombecker Rocket and others
                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                        Jim, since you came up from the basement, I thought you and others might appreciate this 1953 Popular Science article on HO mfgrs.

                                                                                         

                                                                                        From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                        Cc: Jim Waterman <watermaj@...>
                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:08:07 PM
                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Strombecker Rocket and others

                                                                                            Since there is discussion  going on about the Strombecker Rock Island Rocket I thought I would send these pictures.
                                                                                                 The kit for my Rocket has the engine started but the cars still waiting to be done. I have tried to copy an extra set of the cardboard printed sides but haven't had much luck using my printer. The silver does not come out glossy enough but maybe using special photographic paper would be better. Kinko's didn't do to good for me either
                                                                                               The second picture is a mint B&O kit still in original box. Even has the little sheet of sandpaper and the packets of glue you mix with water to assembly.
                                                                                               Some where in this house I have a completed City of San Francisco set. Still in boxes somewhere when we moved 5 years ago.This set has a B unit ,sold separate from the set. It came in it's own box. I have it too but is missing in action with the set.
                                                                                                   Hope this adds to the discussion.
                                                                                                                                                   Jim H
                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8730 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                        Subject: Re: Popular Science article

                                                                                        Hi Chris,

                                                                                        Thanks for sharing that.  Very nice to read.

                                                                                         

                                                                                        Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                                         

                                                                                        From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:49 PM
                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strombecker Rocket and others

                                                                                         

                                                                                        Jim, since you came up from the basement, I thought you and others might appreciate this 1953 Popular Science article on HO mfgrs.


                                                                                         
                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8731 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                        Subject: Sorta Cheap stuff for sale
                                                                                        List,

                                                                                        Several more items up for grabs. I keep bumping into these everytime
                                                                                        I turn around. No use to me. First is a Mantua "long" caboose. It is
                                                                                        made of brass with diecast underframe. Looks complete, loop couplers
                                                                                        and minor paint loss. Probably from the 1950's. Second is an old kit
                                                                                        built caboose. Made of wood with the common wire grabs, etc. Maybe
                                                                                        Ambroid or Northeast or ? Painted and lettered for the ATSF. Missing
                                                                                        one KD coupler and box and one end ladder. Otherwise in decent condition
                                                                                        and not much to do to put back into service. Price for both is $30.00
                                                                                        plus shipping (probably under $6.00 but will be determined once I know
                                                                                        where it will be going) First in and they are yours....Thanks, Gary

                                                                                        http://prrmodels.com/vincabs.JPG





                                                                                        Come visit my PRR Pages:

                                                                                        http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/PRR-pages.html
                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8732 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                        Subject: Re: Really Cheap stuff for sale
                                                                                        FWIW, the deal is already completed, but the blue streamliners are
                                                                                        definitely Varney, and as near as we can tell, Varney only did the blue and
                                                                                        silver PRE WW-II. (I have at least one of each, I could have used the
                                                                                        baggage and Pullmans :-(.

                                                                                        Can't identify the metal cars, but they are NOT Varney. Varney heavyweights
                                                                                        of that era were embossed cardstock sides.

                                                                                        Don

                                                                                        Don Dellmann
                                                                                        don.dellmann@...
                                                                                        http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                        http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                        Owner
                                                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                        From: <mittner@...>
                                                                                        To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 1:12 PM
                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Really Cheap stuff for sale


                                                                                        > List,
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > Ok, first one who is interested in these items and replies first,
                                                                                        > they are yours. I have 12 passenger cars that are very vintage, possibly
                                                                                        > from the late 40's and 1950''s time period. I do not need them. A first
                                                                                        > thought was to just dump them in the trash. Then reconsidered that these
                                                                                        > really may not be junk to someone else. Not sure of the maker. Old
                                                                                        > Varney streamlined cars? They are made of mostly wood with some sort of
                                                                                        > built up layered sides. The shorty hevyweights are a combination of
                                                                                        > materials (tin, cast and wood). The RPO as seen in the pic has a
                                                                                        > mailroom interior with pigeon hole letter sorter, racks for bags, stove
                                                                                        > etc. Some of the cars have seats. No trucks for any, some have couplers.
                                                                                        > The deal, $1.00 per car for a total of $12.00 plus shipping via USPS.
                                                                                        > Better than train show prices! Will figure the total cost once I know
                                                                                        > where they are heading. Thanks for looking....Gary
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > http://prrmodels.com/vinho.JPG
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > Come visit my PRR Pages:
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/PRR-pages.html
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > ------------------------------------
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8733 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                        Subject: Re: Strombecker Rocket and others
                                                                                        The COSF and B&O trains also had an extra passenger car available.  gj
                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 12:08 PM
                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Strombecker Rocket and others

                                                                                            Since there is discussion  going on about the Strombecker Rock Island Rocket I thought I would send these pictures.
                                                                                                 The kit for my Rocket has the engine started but the cars still waiting to be done. I have tried to copy an extra set of the cardboard printed sides but haven't had much luck using my printer. The silver does not come out glossy enough but maybe using special photographic paper would be better. Kinko's didn't do to good for me either
                                                                                               The second picture is a mint B&O kit still in original box. Even has the little sheet of sandpaper and the packets of glue you mix with water to assembly.
                                                                                               Some where in this house I have a completed City of San Francisco set. Still in boxes somewhere when we moved 5 years ago.This set has a B unit ,sold separate from the set. It came in it's own box. I have it too but is missing in action with the set.
                                                                                                   Hope this adds to the discussion.
                                                                                                                                                   Jim H


                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                        Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.25/1957 - Release Date: 02/17/09 07:07:00
                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8734 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                        Subject: Re: Strombecker Rocket and others
                                                                                        Chris,
                                                                                                 Just going to get chance to read the article. The little I did read sounds neat. Should be some valuable info in it.THANKS.
                                                                                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                        From: Chris B
                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:48 PM
                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strombecker Rocket and others

                                                                                        Jim, since you came up from the basement, I thought you and others might appreciate this 1953 Popular Science article on HO mfgrs.

                                                                                         

                                                                                        From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                        Cc: Jim Waterman <watermaj@comcast. net>
                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:08:07 PM
                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Strombecker Rocket and others

                                                                                            Since there is discussion  going on about the Strombecker Rock Island Rocket I thought I would send these pictures.
                                                                                                 The kit for my Rocket has the engine started but the cars still waiting to be done. I have tried to copy an extra set of the cardboard printed sides but haven't had much luck using my printer. The silver does not come out glossy enough but maybe using special photographic paper would be better. Kinko's didn't do to good for me either
                                                                                               The second picture is a mint B&O kit still in original box. Even has the little sheet of sandpaper and the packets of glue you mix with water to assembly.
                                                                                               Some where in this house I have a completed City of San Francisco set. Still in boxes somewhere when we moved 5 years ago.This set has a B unit ,sold separate from the set. It came in it's own box. I have it too but is missing in action with the set.
                                                                                                   Hope this adds to the discussion.
                                                                                                                                                   Jim H
                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8735 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                        Subject: Re: Strombecker Rocket and others
                                                                                        Glenn,
                                                                                              Was that extra car a completely different car or just a double of one of the original three   ????
                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                        From: Glenn476
                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:48 PM
                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strombecker Rocket and others

                                                                                        The COSF and B&O trains also had an extra passenger car available.  gj
                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 12:08 PM
                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Strombecker Rocket and others

                                                                                            Since there is discussion  going on about the Strombecker Rock Island Rocket I thought I would send these pictures.
                                                                                                 The kit for my Rocket has the engine started but the cars still waiting to be done. I have tried to copy an extra set of the cardboard printed sides but haven't had much luck using my printer. The silver does not come out glossy enough but maybe using special photographic paper would be better. Kinko's didn't do to good for me either
                                                                                               The second picture is a mint B&O kit still in original box. Even has the little sheet of sandpaper and the packets of glue you mix with water to assembly.
                                                                                               Some where in this house I have a completed City of San Francisco set. Still in boxes somewhere when we moved 5 years ago.This set has a B unit ,sold separate from the set. It came in it's own box. I have it too but is missing in action with the set.
                                                                                                   Hope this adds to the discussion.
                                                                                                                                                   Jim H


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                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8736 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/17/2009
                                                                                        Subject: Re: Strombecker Rocket and others
                                                                                        at almost 60 years ago it is hard to recall..  gj
                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:13 PM
                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strombecker Rocket and others

                                                                                        Glenn,
                                                                                              Was that extra car a completely different car or just a double of one of the original three   ????
                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                        From: Glenn476
                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:48 PM
                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strombecker Rocket and others

                                                                                        The COSF and B&O trains also had an extra passenger car available.  gj
                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 12:08 PM
                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Strombecker Rocket and others

                                                                                            Since there is discussion  going on about the Strombecker Rock Island Rocket I thought I would send these pictures.
                                                                                                 The kit for my Rocket has the engine started but the cars still waiting to be done. I have tried to copy an extra set of the cardboard printed sides but haven't had much luck using my printer. The silver does not come out glossy enough but maybe using special photographic paper would be better. Kinko's didn't do to good for me either
                                                                                               The second picture is a mint B&O kit still in original box. Even has the little sheet of sandpaper and the packets of glue you mix with water to assembly.
                                                                                               Some where in this house I have a completed City of San Francisco set. Still in boxes somewhere when we moved 5 years ago.This set has a B unit ,sold separate from the set. It came in it's own box. I have it too but is missing in action with the set.
                                                                                                   Hope this adds to the discussion.
                                                                                                                                                   Jim H


                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                        Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.25/1957 - Release Date: 02/17/09 07:07:00


                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                        Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.25/1957 - Release Date: 02/17/09 07:07:00
                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8737 From: erieberk Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                        Subject: Re: StromBecKer Rocket and others
                                                                                        Jim, The extra car for both the COSF (UP) and the B&O was a coach.
                                                                                        The catalog numbers were as follows:

                                                                                        R-200 City of San Francisco: Set - A-Unit & 3 cars ($2.79)

                                                                                        R-202 City of San Francisco: B-Unit (89 cents)

                                                                                        R-203 City of San Francisco: Coach , only (79 cents)

                                                                                        R-210 B&O: Set - A-Unit & 3 cars ($2.79)

                                                                                        R-212 B&O: B-Unit (89 cents)

                                                                                        R-213 B&O: Coach, only (79 cents)

                                                                                        Regards, Ray Wetzel



                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > Glenn,
                                                                                        > Was that extra car a completely different car or just a
                                                                                        double of one of the original three ????
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                        > From: Glenn476
                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                        > Cc: Jim Waterman
                                                                                        > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:48 PM
                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strombecker Rocket and others
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > The COSF and B&O trains also had an extra passenger car
                                                                                        available. gj
                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                        > From: Jim Heckard
                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                        > Cc: Jim Waterman
                                                                                        > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 12:08 PM
                                                                                        > Subject: [vintageHO] Strombecker Rocket and others
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > Since there is discussion going on about the Strombecker
                                                                                        Rock Island Rocket I thought I would send these pictures.
                                                                                        > The kit for my Rocket has the engine started but the
                                                                                        cars still waiting to be done. I have tried to copy an extra set of
                                                                                        the cardboard printed sides but haven't had much luck using my
                                                                                        printer. The silver does not come out glossy enough but maybe using
                                                                                        special photographic paper would be better. Kinko's didn't do to good
                                                                                        for me either
                                                                                        > The second picture is a mint B&O kit still in original
                                                                                        box. Even has the little sheet of sandpaper and the packets of glue
                                                                                        you mix with water to assembly.
                                                                                        > Some where in this house I have a completed City of San
                                                                                        Francisco set. Still in boxes somewhere when we moved 5 years
                                                                                        ago.This set has a B unit ,sold separate from the set. It came in
                                                                                        it's own box. I have it too but is missing in action with the set.
                                                                                        > Hope this adds to the discussion.
                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                        --------
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                        > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.25/1957 - Release
                                                                                        Date: 02/17/09 07:07:00
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8738 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                        Subject: Re: StromBecKer Rocket and others
                                                                                           Ray,
                                                                                                       Thanks for the information. While I knew the B&O and the COSF (UP) had an extra B unit available I never knew you could buy an extra coach separate. You learn something new every day. While those prices don't seem like much for a young lad that was a lot at that time.
                                                                                                                                                                         Jim H.
                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                        From: erieberk
                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 8:47 AM
                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: StromBecKer Rocket and others

                                                                                        Jim, The extra car for both the COSF (UP) and the B&O was a coach.
                                                                                        The catalog numbers were as follows:

                                                                                        R-200 City of San Francisco: Set - A-Unit & 3 cars ($2.79)

                                                                                        R-202 City of San Francisco: B-Unit (89 cents)

                                                                                        R-203 City of San Francisco: Coach , only (79 cents)

                                                                                        R-210 B&O: Set - A-Unit & 3 cars ($2.79)

                                                                                        R-212 B&O: B-Unit (89 cents)

                                                                                        R-213 B&O: Coach, only (79 cents)

                                                                                        Regards, Ray Wetzel

                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > Glenn,
                                                                                        > Was that extra car a completely different car or just a
                                                                                        double of one of the original three ????
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                        > From: Glenn476
                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                        > Cc: Jim Waterman
                                                                                        > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:48 PM
                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strombecker Rocket and others
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > The COSF and B&O trains also had an extra passenger car
                                                                                        available. gj
                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                        > From: Jim Heckard
                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                        > Cc: Jim Waterman
                                                                                        > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 12:08 PM
                                                                                        > Subject: [vintageHO] Strombecker Rocket and others
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > Since there is discussion going on about the Strombecker
                                                                                        Rock Island Rocket I thought I would send these pictures.
                                                                                        > The kit for my Rocket has the engine started but the
                                                                                        cars still waiting to be done. I have tried to copy an extra set of
                                                                                        the cardboard printed sides but haven't had much luck using my
                                                                                        printer. The silver does not come out glossy enough but maybe using
                                                                                        special photographic paper would be better. Kinko's didn't do to good
                                                                                        for me either
                                                                                        > The second picture is a mint B&O kit still in original
                                                                                        box. Even has the little sheet of sandpaper and the packets of glue
                                                                                        you mix with water to assembly.
                                                                                        > Some where in this house I have a completed City of San
                                                                                        Francisco set. Still in boxes somewhere when we moved 5 years
                                                                                        ago.This set has a B unit ,sold separate from the set. It came in
                                                                                        it's own box. I have it too but is missing in action with the set.
                                                                                        > Hope this adds to the discussion.
                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                        --------
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                        > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.25/1957 - Release
                                                                                        Date: 02/17/09 07:07:00
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8739 From: erieberk Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                        Subject: Re: StromBecKer Catalog Listing
                                                                                        Chuck H, Since questions about this manufacturer pop up from time to
                                                                                        time, I thought you might want to make a spread sheet for it, for the
                                                                                        files. You already have most of the passenger equipment, except for
                                                                                        the R.I. Rocket, which oddly enough didn't have a catalog number in
                                                                                        its listing. I'll include original prices, if only for amusement
                                                                                        here. You don't need to list them, but can if you want. I can't
                                                                                        give you the road numbers but will just supply the color.

                                                                                        Strombeck-Becker Mfg. Co., Moline, IL * 200 Fifth Ave., NY

                                                                                        H0 Scale Models:

                                                                                        1937 Rock Island Rocket: Set - A-unit & 3 cars ($1.79)

                                                                                        R-100 H0 Freight Train: Set - Mikado engine & tender, 3 freight cars
                                                                                        (Pacemaker box, Shell tank and PFE reefer) and NYC Caboose. ($2.79)

                                                                                        R-1 Locomotice & Tender - Mikado ($1.19)

                                                                                        R-2 N.Y.C. Caboose, Red (40 cents)

                                                                                        R-10 N.Y.C. Pacemaker Box Car, Red & Grey (40 cents)

                                                                                        R-11 B&O Sentinel Box Car, Silver & Blue (40 cents)

                                                                                        R-12 M.K.T. "KATY" Box Car, Yellow (40 cents)

                                                                                        R-21 SP-UP Pacific Fruit Express Refrigerator, Orange (40 cents)

                                                                                        R-22 A.T.S.F. "Chief" Refrigerator, Orange (40 cents)

                                                                                        R-23 Illinois Central Refrigerator, Yellow (40 cents)

                                                                                        R-31 Shell Chemical Tank Car, Yellow (40 cents)

                                                                                        R-32 Hercules Powder Tank Car (40 cents)

                                                                                        R-33 Heinz Vinegar Tank Car, Yellow (40 cents)

                                                                                        R-41 Chesapeake & Ohio Hopper Car, Black (40 cents)

                                                                                        Historic - 0 Scale Models:

                                                                                        1831-C DeWitt Clinton Engine & Tender (59 cents)

                                                                                        1831-GT DeWitt Clinton Set: Engine & Tender and 2 Coaches ($1.19)

                                                                                        R-131 DeWitt Clinton Set: Two Coaches (59 cents)

                                                                                        1837-C Wm. Galloway Engine & Tender (59 cents)

                                                                                        1837-BT Wm. Galloway Set: Engine & Tender and 2 Freight Cars ($1.19)

                                                                                        R-137 Wm. Galloway Set: Two Freight Cars (59 cents)

                                                                                        1848-C C&NW Pioneer" Engine & Tender (79 cents)

                                                                                        1848-NT C&NW "Pioneer" Set: Engine & Tender and 1 Passenger Car (1.39)

                                                                                        R-148 C&NW "Pioneer": One Coach (69 cents)

                                                                                        Don't recall the color of the Hercules Poeder tank, it could be
                                                                                        either black or red. Maybe someone else might know. Ray Wetzel
                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8740 From: frank Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                        Subject: Varney 40' Box cars ( plastic ) photos
                                                                                        I added a album of Varney 40' box cars. Franks Varney box cars. SD
                                                                                        single door, and DD double doors. For referance. I started with 9
                                                                                        photos. I will add more later.
                                                                                        frank
                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8741 From: erieberk Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                        Subject: Re: Strombecker Rock Island TA ROCKET
                                                                                        Seems like most of us old enough to remember these Strombecker models
                                                                                        had loads of fun with them, either as a floor toy or as an addition
                                                                                        to a train layout. I've never taken the opportunity to measure them,
                                                                                        and take your word for them not being to scale if it's obvious when
                                                                                        placed along side an NPP model, but FWIW -- curiously, StromBecKer
                                                                                        not only advertised their models as "Railroad Scale Models -- H0
                                                                                        Gauge," but also specifically stated "Accurately scaled 3 1/2 m.m. to
                                                                                        1 ft."

                                                                                        Thought you might find this interesting. Looks like they must have
                                                                                        been working with a "short ruler." Perhaps it got trimmed off a bit
                                                                                        while doing their woodworking (LOL). In any case, they helped
                                                                                        introduce the kids to the H0 hobby. As I recall though, Comet
                                                                                        Models' freight car kits were a nickle less, and were fairly
                                                                                        presentable for those times as a model for the layout. I think their
                                                                                        price of 35 cents was part of the bold printing on their box tops.
                                                                                        Ray Wetzel



                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > Glenn Joesten inquires about this venerable wood kit model, very
                                                                                        > neatly fabricated from milled white or sugar pine. Like many other
                                                                                        > model products of this Moline, IL company, this very low priced
                                                                                        model
                                                                                        > was attractive because Strombecker went to considerable lengths
                                                                                        to
                                                                                        > make their models accurately proportional in most major dimensions
                                                                                        and
                                                                                        > contours, even though with its wood wheels, it was in fact designed
                                                                                        as
                                                                                        > a floor toy. The paper overlays for the locomotive details and the
                                                                                        > passenger car windows were also very neatly and accurately done.
                                                                                        > IMHO, Strombecker did a much better job of replicating "the real
                                                                                        > thing" with these floor toys than many contemporary HO "scale"
                                                                                        > manufacturers were in fact doing at the same time.
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > In the late '40s and '50s, it was relatively popular for HO gauge
                                                                                        > modelers to favor converting these Rocket models from floor toys
                                                                                        to
                                                                                        > actual functioning trains on the track (perusing old MRs of the
                                                                                        period
                                                                                        > discloses quite a few photos of these trains on various layouts,
                                                                                        > including one that sticks in my mind, a longer train pulled by two
                                                                                        of
                                                                                        > the TA locomotives back to back). Converting these to HO gauge
                                                                                        > functional use posed a number of challenges, however:
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > 1) The model was made to 1/8", not 3.5mm/ft. scale (if one places
                                                                                        the
                                                                                        > Strombecker model next to the NPP model, this difference in scale
                                                                                        > becomes very obvious).
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > 2) The attractive sleekness of the streamlined cars depended upon
                                                                                        > keeping intact the seamless low skirting along the lower margins
                                                                                        of
                                                                                        > the car sides. This skirting limited the mounting of functioning
                                                                                        > trucks because they would not nestle between the skirts, and if
                                                                                        they
                                                                                        > did, they would not swivel enough to allow the car to go around
                                                                                        any
                                                                                        > curves.
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > 3) The locomotive was made up of two solid blocks of milled wood.
                                                                                        A
                                                                                        > substantial "hollow" had to be milled out for the installation of
                                                                                        any
                                                                                        > power truck, and if if that was successful, the locomotive weight
                                                                                        was
                                                                                        > still so light as to hardly be able to drag itself along, much less
                                                                                        a
                                                                                        > train. The locomotive also had the same skirt issues as the cars.
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > 4) The appearance of the finished product depended to a great
                                                                                        degree
                                                                                        > on how carefully and completely the wood surfaces were in fact
                                                                                        filled,
                                                                                        > sanded, and painted. This was not only an esthetic issue, the
                                                                                        cemented
                                                                                        > paper overlays also depended upon an underlying smooth surface for
                                                                                        any
                                                                                        > significant longevity.
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > As a result, too many surviving Strombecker ROCKET models are
                                                                                        flawed by:
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > 1) The skirts have been cut away for over-wide, over sized trucks,
                                                                                        > most of which have been also mounted to elevate the cars, In this
                                                                                        > respect, the lovely flowing proportions common to these car models
                                                                                        > (and their prototypes) are to a large degree compromised, and the
                                                                                        cars
                                                                                        > and locomotives appear to be in flood pants.
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > 2) Wood preparation and paint work is poor, and as a side result,
                                                                                        the
                                                                                        > paper overlays are peeling, and/or are dog-eared.
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > With a fresh kit, all of these fundamental issues (save changing
                                                                                        > scale!) can be successfully addressed by the skillful modeler, of
                                                                                        > course (now, as then), and they have been. If so, the resulting
                                                                                        model
                                                                                        > can still be a thoroughly attractive "Classic" example of past
                                                                                        fine
                                                                                        > modeling on any contemporary layout. Options will likely be quite
                                                                                        > limited with kits either partially or completely finished,
                                                                                        however.
                                                                                        > The Casco glue that was included in the kit can be undone by
                                                                                        soaking
                                                                                        > in water, but this will likely also destroy the paper overlay in
                                                                                        the
                                                                                        > process.
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > Denny
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                        > Sacramento
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8742 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                        Subject: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                                 I'm making a grade on my new layout and want to know what would be "normal"  percentage wise for HO. I'm asking all the engineers out there (both HO train modelers or those with a degree) to offer advise. I want to have a bridge crossing another track. I would like to end up having 3 1/2" to 4" clearance from the platform up to the underside of the bridge. I have  66" from level platform to the start of the bridge to work with. Is that enough distance  to get the right % grade ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H 
                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8743 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                        Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                        4 inches in 66 inches would be greater than 6%.  What kind of train will be using the grade... diesel, steam, geared like a shay...  length of trains?  What is the purpose of that track...  logging, industry, mining or main line?

                                                                                        Don in VA
                                                                                        =====================================================


                                                                                        Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                 I'm making a grade on my new layout and want to know what would be "normal"  percentage wise for HO. I'm asking all the engineers out there (both HO train modelers or those with a degree) to offer advise. I want to have a bridge crossing another track. I would like to end up having 3 1/2" to 4" clearance from the platform up to the underside of the bridge. I have  66" from level platform to the start of the bridge to work with. Is that enough distance  to get the right % grade ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H 
                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8744 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                        Subject: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                    I just sent these pictures to a 96 year old gentleman from Atlanta Georgia who wanted to see this engine. Since they are still loaded in my computer, and before I delete, I thought I would pass this on.
                                                                                               This 4-8-2 zamac Mountain was sold by Polk's Hobbies under the Aristo Craft name. It was made in Japan by New One. It runs fairly nice, is very heavy and has a pretty nice valve gear set up for a metal engine made by New One. I have 17 different New One engines that were made for Polk and HOTCO (HO Train Co/ General Hobbies Co.). A FEW were sold by both.
                                                                                               Thought some might like to see this. Chuck H, PLEASE enter into the album.
                                                                                                                                                                                           Jim H
                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8745 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                          Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                                   I will be running vintage diesel and steam, no Shay type or logging engines,. It will be a scenic type area running through a mountain area just for "looks" and would accommodate freight trains and passenger cars. I still would like to know what percentage grade would be acceptable. If I make it 70" from level to the bridge with a 3 1/4" inch height, what percentage grade would that be ????
                                                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:30 AM
                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                          4 inches in 66 inches would be greater than 6%.  What kind of train will be using the grade... diesel, steam, geared like a shay...  length of trains?  What is the purpose of that track...  logging, industry, mining or main line?

                                                                                          Don in VA
                                                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =====


                                                                                          Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                   I'm making a grade on my new layout and want to know what would be "normal"  percentage wise for HO. I'm asking all the engineers out there (both HO train modelers or those with a degree) to offer advise. I want to have a bridge crossing another track. I would like to end up having 3 1/2" to 4" clearance from the platform up to the underside of the bridge. I have  66" from level platform to the start of the bridge to work with. Is that enough distance  to get the right % grade ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jim H 
                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8746 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                          Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                          I am guessing that you are saying the rise will be 3.25 inches in a distance of 70 inches.  If so, that would be a 4.6% grade, pretty steep.
                                                                                          Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC



                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                          From: jimheck@...
                                                                                          Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 11:41:51 -0500
                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???


                                                                                                   I will be running vintage diesel and steam, no Shay type or logging engines,. It will be a scenic type area running through a mountain area just for "looks" and would accommodate freight trains and passenger cars. I still would like to know what percentage grade would be acceptable. If I make it 70" from level to the bridge with a 3 1/4" inch height, what percentage grade would that be ????
                                                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:30 AM
                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                          4 inches in 66 inches would be greater than 6%.  What kind of train will be using the grade... diesel, steam, geared like a shay...  length of trains?  What is the purpose of that track...  logging, industry, mining or main line?

                                                                                          Don in VA
                                                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =====


                                                                                          Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                   I'm making a grade on my new layout and want to know what would be "normal"  percentage wise for HO. I'm asking all the engineers out there (both HO train modelers or those with a degree) to offer advise. I want to have a bridge crossing another track. I would like to end up having 3 1/2" to 4" clearance from the platform up to the underside of the bridge. I have  66" from level platform to the start of the bridge to work with. Is that enough distance  to get the right % grade ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jim H 



                                                                                          See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life. See Now
                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8747 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                          Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                          Jim,

                                                                                          My last layout had a section of 4% and only short trains with heavily
                                                                                          weighted locomotives could make it. A cast lead Varney Mikado could
                                                                                          handle 20 cars and that was max. Another problem with steep grades
                                                                                          is that the train starts pushing the engine on the downgrade causing
                                                                                          bucking in the gearbox.

                                                                                          On my present layout, which is a mountain railroad with lots of
                                                                                          grades, I am keeping 2-1/2% as my norm with one stretch of 3%.

                                                                                          Percentage is calculated as follows: 3 inch rise in 100 inches of
                                                                                          track equals 3%. Hope this helps.

                                                                                          Bill DeFoe


                                                                                          > Jim
                                                                                          > Heckard wrote:
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > I'm making a grade
                                                                                          > on my new layout and want to know what would be "normal"
                                                                                          percentage
                                                                                          > wise for HO. I'm asking all the engineers out there (both HO
                                                                                          train modelers
                                                                                          > or those with a degree) to offer advise. I want to have a
                                                                                          bridge crossing
                                                                                          > another track. I would like to end up having 3 1/2" to 4"
                                                                                          clearance from the
                                                                                          > platform up to the underside of the bridge. I have 66" from
                                                                                          > level platform to the start of the bridge to work with. Is that
                                                                                          enough
                                                                                          > distance to get the right % grade ?
                                                                                          >

                                                                                          > Jim H
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > _________________________________________________________________
                                                                                          > See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are
                                                                                          part of your life.
                                                                                          > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8748 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                          Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                          4.6%, still steep but steam or diesels and short trains could handle it.  You might need 2 diesel power units or heavy steam.
                                                                                          For regular mail line running I would try not to exceed 2.5%...  Anything less than that is even better.  To get percentage, divide rise by length, 3.25 inches divided by 70 inches = .046 inches in one inch times 100 inches = 4.6% grade.  Grade is expressed as the rise in units of 100...  inches, feet, etc. 
                                                                                          Don in VA
                                                                                          ============================================

                                                                                          Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                   I will be running vintage diesel and steam, no Shay type or logging engines,. It will be a scenic type area running through a mountain area just for "looks" and would accommodate freight trains and passenger cars. I still would like to know what percentage grade would be acceptable. If I make it 70" from level to the bridge with a 3 1/4" inch height, what percentage grade would that be ????
                                                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:30 AM
                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                          4 inches in 66 inches would be greater than 6%.  What kind of train will be using the grade... diesel, steam, geared like a shay...  length of trains?  What is the purpose of that track...  logging, industry, mining or main line?

                                                                                          Don in VA
                                                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =====


                                                                                          Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                   I'm making a grade on my new layout and want to know what would be "normal"  percentage wise for HO. I'm asking all the engineers out there (both HO train modelers or those with a degree) to offer advise. I want to have a bridge crossing another track. I would like to end up having 3 1/2" to 4" clearance from the platform up to the underside of the bridge. I have  66" from level platform to the start of the bridge to work with. Is that enough distance  to get the right % grade ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jim H 
                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8749 From: Chris B Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                          Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                          Jim, I'm building a multi deck with an around the room climb of 16" from lower deck to upper that's designed not to exceed 4%. 
                                                                                           
                                                                                          Even so, I'm running very short trains with heavily weighted Hobbytown switchers and solo gas electrics. 
                                                                                           
                                                                                          The easy way I remember it is the Woodland Scenics 4% incline set takes 8 ft to rise 4",
                                                                                           
                                                                                          so it takes me 32 linear feet of shelf going around the room to climb 16".
                                                                                           
                                                                                          I also used  the free Atlas RTS layout planning software to design the layout, that automatically measures run length, and grade if you establish track level heights.
                                                                                           
                                                                                          btw, curve radius also greatly affects traction on grades.
                                                                                           
                                                                                          Chris

                                                                                          From: Bill DeFoe <defoe242@...>
                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 12:11:15 PM
                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                          Jim,

                                                                                          My last layout had a section of 4% and only short trains with heavily
                                                                                          weighted locomotives could make it. A cast lead Varney Mikado could
                                                                                          handle 20 cars and that was max. Another problem with steep grades
                                                                                          is that the train starts pushing the engine on the downgrade causing
                                                                                          bucking in the gearbox.

                                                                                          On my present layout, which is a mountain railroad with lots of
                                                                                          grades, I am keeping 2-1/2% as my norm with one stretch of 3%.

                                                                                          Percentage is calculated as follows: 3 inch rise in 100 inches of
                                                                                          track equals 3%. Hope this helps.

                                                                                          Bill DeFoe

                                                                                          > Jim
                                                                                          > Heckard wrote:
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > I'm making a grade
                                                                                          > on my new layout and want to know what would be "normal"
                                                                                          percentage
                                                                                          > wise for HO. I'm asking all the engineers out there (both HO
                                                                                          train modelers
                                                                                          > or those with a degree) to offer advise. I want to have a
                                                                                          bridge crossing
                                                                                          > another track. I would like to end up having 3 1/2" to 4"
                                                                                          clearance from the
                                                                                          > platform up to the underside of the bridge. I have 66" from
                                                                                          > level platform to the start of the bridge to work with. Is that
                                                                                          enough
                                                                                          > distance to get the right % grade ?
                                                                                          >

                                                                                          > Jim H
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                                                                          > See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are
                                                                                          part of your life.
                                                                                          > http://clk.atdmt. com/MRT/go/ msnnkwxp10200931 75mrt/direct/ 01/
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8750 From: Mike Sloane Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                          Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                          I wouldn't get too caught up with the numbers. Find a piece of wood,
                                                                                          slap down a hunk of track, and see if your engines will go up a slope
                                                                                          that looks right for your layout. The real railroads would consider
                                                                                          anything approaching a 1% grade to be a problem, but we don't usually
                                                                                          have anything even remotely like their problems or distances to deal
                                                                                          with. My "rule of thumb" is that, if it looks OK and works for you, do
                                                                                          it. If you need two engines to make it up the hill with a few cars, that
                                                                                          just adds to the fun.

                                                                                          And, as far as the gears "bucking" on the downhill side, you might need
                                                                                          to put some shims on the worm gears to tighten things up a bit.

                                                                                          Mike

                                                                                          Donald R. Staton wrote:
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > /4.6%, still steep but steam or diesels and short trains could handle
                                                                                          > it. You might need 2 diesel power units or heavy steam.
                                                                                          > For regular mail line running I would try not to exceed 2.5%...
                                                                                          > Anything less than that is even better. To get percentage, divide rise
                                                                                          > by length, 3.25 inches divided by 70 inches = .046 inches in one inch
                                                                                          > times 100 inches = 4.6% grade. Grade is expressed as the rise in units
                                                                                          > of 100... inches, feet, etc.
                                                                                          > Don in VA
                                                                                          > ============================================
                                                                                          > /
                                                                                          > Jim Heckard wrote:
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >> I will be running vintage diesel and steam, no Shay type or
                                                                                          >> logging engines,. It will be a scenic type area running through a
                                                                                          >> mountain area just for "looks" and would accommodate freight trains
                                                                                          >> and passenger cars. I still would like to know what percentage grade
                                                                                          >> would be acceptable. If I make it 70" from level to the bridge with a
                                                                                          >> 3 1/4" inch height, what percentage grade would that be ????
                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8751 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                          Subject: Re: StromBecKer Rocket and others
                                                                                          translated as "a lot of lawn mowing and leaf raking"  gj
                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 6:39 AM
                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: StromBecKer Rocket and others

                                                                                             Ray,
                                                                                                         Thanks for the information. While I knew the B&O and the COSF (UP) had an extra B unit available I never knew you could buy an extra coach separate. You learn something new every day. While those prices don't seem like much for a young lad that was a lot at that time.
                                                                                                                                                                           Jim H.
                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                          From: erieberk
                                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 8:47 AM
                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: StromBecKer Rocket and others

                                                                                          Jim, The extra car for both the COSF (UP) and the B&O was a coach.
                                                                                          The catalog numbers were as follows:

                                                                                          R-200 City of San Francisco: Set - A-Unit & 3 cars ($2.79)

                                                                                          R-202 City of San Francisco: B-Unit (89 cents)

                                                                                          R-203 City of San Francisco: Coach , only (79 cents)

                                                                                          R-210 B&O: Set - A-Unit & 3 cars ($2.79)

                                                                                          R-212 B&O: B-Unit (89 cents)

                                                                                          R-213 B&O: Coach, only (79 cents)

                                                                                          Regards, Ray Wetzel

                                                                                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Glenn,
                                                                                          > Was that extra car a completely different car or just a
                                                                                          double of one of the original three ????
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          Jim H
                                                                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                          > From: Glenn476
                                                                                          > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                          > Cc: Jim Waterman
                                                                                          > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:48 PM
                                                                                          > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strombecker Rocket and others
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > The COSF and B&O trains also had an extra passenger car
                                                                                          available. gj
                                                                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                          > From: Jim Heckard
                                                                                          > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                          > Cc: Jim Waterman
                                                                                          > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 12:08 PM
                                                                                          > Subject: [vintageHO] Strombecker Rocket and others
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > Since there is discussion going on about the Strombecker
                                                                                          Rock Island Rocket I thought I would send these pictures.
                                                                                          > The kit for my Rocket has the engine started but the
                                                                                          cars still waiting to be done. I have tried to copy an extra set of
                                                                                          the cardboard printed sides but haven't had much luck using my
                                                                                          printer. The silver does not come out glossy enough but maybe using
                                                                                          special photographic paper would be better. Kinko's didn't do to good
                                                                                          for me either
                                                                                          > The second picture is a mint B&O kit still in original
                                                                                          box. Even has the little sheet of sandpaper and the packets of glue
                                                                                          you mix with water to assembly.
                                                                                          > Some where in this house I have a completed City of San
                                                                                          Francisco set. Still in boxes somewhere when we moved 5 years
                                                                                          ago.This set has a B unit ,sold separate from the set. It came in
                                                                                          it's own box. I have it too but is missing in action with the set.
                                                                                          > Hope this adds to the discussion.
                                                                                          > Jim H
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                          --------
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          >
                                                                                          > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                          > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                          > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.25/1957 - Release
                                                                                          Date: 02/17/09 07:07:00
                                                                                          >


                                                                                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                          Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.25/1957 - Release Date: 02/17/09 07:07:00
                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8752 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                          Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                          you really need at least 8 ft to make a climb-over--at that, it is a bit over 4%. gj
                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 8:41 AM
                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                                   I will be running vintage diesel and steam, no Shay type or logging engines,. It will be a scenic type area running through a mountain area just for "looks" and would accommodate freight trains and passenger cars. I still would like to know what percentage grade would be acceptable. If I make it 70" from level to the bridge with a 3 1/4" inch height, what percentage grade would that be ????
                                                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:30 AM
                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                          4 inches in 66 inches would be greater than 6%.  What kind of train will be using the grade... diesel, steam, geared like a shay...  length of trains?  What is the purpose of that track...  logging, industry, mining or main line?

                                                                                          Don in VA
                                                                                          ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =====


                                                                                          Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                   I'm making a grade on my new layout and want to know what would be "normal"  percentage wise for HO. I'm asking all the engineers out there (both HO train modelers or those with a degree) to offer advise. I want to have a bridge crossing another track. I would like to end up having 3 1/2" to 4" clearance from the platform up to the underside of the bridge. I have  66" from level platform to the start of the bridge to work with. Is that enough distance  to get the right % grade ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jim H 


                                                                                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                          Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.25/1957 - Release Date: 02/17/09 07:07:00
                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8753 From: Chris B Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                          Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                            Mike, that's exactly what I did before anything else, before I designed the layout, or even contemplated a multi deck plan.
                                                                                            My W&OD prototype has a 4% grade right out of Rosslyn yard, so that was a big part of my modeling goal for the layout.
                                                                                             
                                                                                            I didn't do any math, I just slapped a 12 ft long plywood strip on the flat deck, elevated the far end to 12" with a metal box, and found my hobbytown yard switchers, Athearn blue box switchers,  and  ROCO Atlas s-2s could climb what amounted to a 12% grade with no problem by themselves.  The hobbytowns could even pull 4 diecast gondolas with lead weight loads. 
                                                                                             
                                                                                            what it came down to for me was how steep could I make it and not have it look unrealistic.  that happened to be around 4%.  so I can climb up 16", it just takes going once around the room, and once around a peninsula in the middle, and I'm up on the top deck.
                                                                                             
                                                                                            Chris B
                                                                                             

                                                                                            From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 12:37:40 PM
                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                            I wouldn't get too caught up with the numbers. Find a piece of wood,
                                                                                            slap down a hunk of track, and see if your engines will go up a slope
                                                                                            that looks right for your layout. The real railroads would consider
                                                                                            anything approaching a 1% grade to be a problem, but we don't usually
                                                                                            have anything even remotely like their problems or distances to deal
                                                                                            with. My "rule of thumb" is that, if it looks OK and works for you, do
                                                                                            it. If you need two engines to make it up the hill with a few cars, that
                                                                                            just adds to the fun.

                                                                                            And, as far as the gears "bucking" on the downhill side, you might need
                                                                                            to put some shims on the worm gears to tighten things up a bit.

                                                                                            Mike

                                                                                            Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                            >
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            > /4.6%, still steep but steam or diesels and short trains could handle
                                                                                            > it. You might need 2 diesel power units or heavy steam.
                                                                                            > For regular mail line running I would try not to exceed 2.5%...
                                                                                            > Anything less than that is even better. To get percentage, divide rise
                                                                                            > by length, 3.25 inches divided by 70 inches = .046 inches in one inch
                                                                                            > times 100 inches = 4.6% grade. Grade is expressed as the rise in units
                                                                                            > of 100... inches, feet, etc.
                                                                                            > Don in VA
                                                                                            > ============ ========= ========= ========= =====
                                                                                            > /
                                                                                            > Jim Heckard wrote:
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            >> I will be running vintage diesel and steam, no Shay type or
                                                                                            >> logging engines,. It will be a scenic type area running through a
                                                                                            >> mountain area just for "looks" and would accommodate freight trains
                                                                                            >> and passenger cars. I still would like to know what percentage grade
                                                                                            >> would be acceptable. If I make it 70" from level to the bridge with a
                                                                                            >> 3 1/4" inch height, what percentage grade would that be ????
                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8754 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                            Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                            I'm building an On3 layout featuring the climb to Cumbres Pass--prototype is 4%--It used to take two of the larger Mikados to get ten loads up the pass--such as the "Gramps" tank cars  full of crude oil.  gj
                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:15 AM
                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                            4.6%, still steep but steam or diesels and short trains could handle it.  You might need 2 diesel power units or heavy steam.
                                                                                            For regular mail line running I would try not to exceed 2.5%...  Anything less than that is even better.  To get percentage, divide rise by length, 3.25 inches divided by 70 inches = .046 inches in one inch times 100 inches = 4.6% grade.  Grade is expressed as the rise in units of 100...  inches, feet, etc. 
                                                                                            Don in VA
                                                                                            ============================================

                                                                                            Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                     I will be running vintage diesel and steam, no Shay type or logging engines,. It will be a scenic type area running through a mountain area just for "looks" and would accommodate freight trains and passenger cars. I still would like to know what percentage grade would be acceptable. If I make it 70" from level to the bridge with a 3 1/4" inch height, what percentage grade would that be ????
                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:30 AM
                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                            4 inches in 66 inches would be greater than 6%.  What kind of train will be using the grade... diesel, steam, geared like a shay...  length of trains?  What is the purpose of that track...  logging, industry, mining or main line?

                                                                                            Don in VA
                                                                                            ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =====


                                                                                            Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                     I'm making a grade on my new layout and want to know what would be "normal"  percentage wise for HO. I'm asking all the engineers out there (both HO train modelers or those with a degree) to offer advise. I want to have a bridge crossing another track. I would like to end up having 3 1/2" to 4" clearance from the platform up to the underside of the bridge. I have  66" from level platform to the start of the bridge to work with. Is that enough distance  to get the right % grade ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Jim H 


                                                                                            No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                            Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.25/1957 - Release Date: 02/17/09 07:07:00
                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8755 From: trainliker Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                            Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                            Another reason to not rely too heavily on the theoretical numbers is
                                                                                            that it is easy to forget you need vertical easements.

                                                                                            You can't suddenly go from level track to a grade with a sharp
                                                                                            angle. And, of course, the easement needed will mean the actually
                                                                                            distance for the grade will be somewhat less than expected when just
                                                                                            looking between points on a piece of paper.

                                                                                            Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            > I'm building an On3 layout featuring the climb to Cumbres Pass--
                                                                                            prototype is 4%--It used to take two of the larger Mikados to get
                                                                                            ten loads up the pass--such as the "Gramps" tank cars full of crude
                                                                                            oil. gj
                                                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                            > From: Donald R. Staton
                                                                                            > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                            > Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:15 AM
                                                                                            > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            > 4.6%, still steep but steam or diesels and short trains could
                                                                                            handle it. You might need 2 diesel power units or heavy steam.
                                                                                            > For regular mail line running I would try not to exceed 2.5%...
                                                                                            Anything less than that is even better. To get percentage, divide
                                                                                            rise by length, 3.25 inches divided by 70 inches = .046 inches in
                                                                                            one inch times 100 inches = 4.6% grade. Grade is expressed as the
                                                                                            rise in units of 100... inches, feet, etc.
                                                                                            > Don in VA
                                                                                            > ============================================
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            > Jim Heckard wrote:
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            > I will be running vintage diesel and steam, no Shay
                                                                                            type or logging engines,. It will be a scenic type area running
                                                                                            through a mountain area just for "looks" and would accommodate
                                                                                            freight trains and passenger cars. I still would like to know what
                                                                                            percentage grade would be acceptable. If I make it 70" from level to
                                                                                            the bridge with a 3 1/4" inch height, what percentage grade would
                                                                                            that be ????
                                                                                            > Jim H
                                                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                            > From: Donald R. Staton
                                                                                            > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                            > Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:30 AM
                                                                                            > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            > 4 inches in 66 inches would be greater than 6%. What kind
                                                                                            of train will be using the grade... diesel, steam, geared like a
                                                                                            shay... length of trains? What is the purpose of that track...
                                                                                            logging, industry, mining or main line?
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            > Don in VA
                                                                                            > =====================================================
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            > Jim Heckard wrote:
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            > I'm making a grade on my new layout and want to
                                                                                            know what would be "normal" percentage wise for HO. I'm asking all
                                                                                            the engineers out there (both HO train modelers or those with a
                                                                                            degree) to offer advise. I want to have a bridge crossing another
                                                                                            track. I would like to end up having 3 1/2" to 4" clearance from the
                                                                                            platform up to the underside of the bridge. I have 66" from level
                                                                                            platform to the start of the bridge to work with. Is that enough
                                                                                            distance to get the right % grade ?
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                            -----------
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                            > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.25/1957 - Release
                                                                                            Date: 02/17/09 07:07:00
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8756 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                            Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                            To all who replied,
                                                                                                       I thank you for the input. I have come down to this so what ever it works out to be will have to do. On one side of the trestle I have a max of 90". and on the other side I can get 96" starting from level. The trestle will sit 3" above the track it crosses over. Of course the thickness of the trestle and the track on it will make it 3 1/4". What ever that would come out to grade wise is where it will be.
                                                                                                    This platform doesn't represent any specific RR built but the scenery will be much like upstate PA into New York (New York Central). It is to allow me to run a lot of my vintage HO. While it will be mostly 8 wheel drive types (Consolidations,Mikado's and Mountains) , I also will be running vintage post war (12 volt) items like Mantua Atlantic and Pacific, Varney Pacific and Northerns up to and including Varney Yellowstone and Winton Alleghany. Diesels will be Hobbytown E-7's ( A&B)and PA's (Double A's). They all should have no trouble pulling the loads. I will be running 6 to 8 Penn Line/Varney shorty (60') passenger cars and up to 20 freight cars for now as this track is 18 radius. Later I will be adding 22" radius.
                                                                                                    This platform will eventually have sidings that will be wired and workable but for now is just a scenic railroad to sit back and watch trains run.
                                                                                                     Mike as you state I am a believer of "if it looks good, do it". Again THANKS for the comments as I now have a little better idea of where to go
                                                                                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                            .
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 12:37 PM
                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                            I wouldn't get too caught up with the numbers. Find a piece of wood,
                                                                                            slap down a hunk of track, and see if your engines will go up a slope
                                                                                            that looks right for your layout. The real railroads would consider
                                                                                            anything approaching a 1% grade to be a problem, but we don't usually
                                                                                            have anything even remotely like their problems or distances to deal
                                                                                            with. My "rule of thumb" is that, if it looks OK and works for you, do
                                                                                            it. If you need two engines to make it up the hill with a few cars, that
                                                                                            just adds to the fun.

                                                                                            And, as far as the gears "bucking" on the downhill side, you might need
                                                                                            to put some shims on the worm gears to tighten things up a bit.

                                                                                            Mike

                                                                                            Donald R. Staton wrote:
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            > /4.6%, still steep but steam or diesels and short trains could handle
                                                                                            > it. You might need 2 diesel power units or heavy steam.
                                                                                            > For regular mail line running I would try not to exceed 2.5%...
                                                                                            > Anything less than that is even better. To get percentage, divide rise
                                                                                            > by length, 3.25 inches divided by 70 inches = .046 inches in one inch
                                                                                            > times 100 inches = 4.6% grade. Grade is expressed as the rise in units
                                                                                            > of 100... inches, feet, etc.
                                                                                            > Don in VA
                                                                                            > ============ ========= ========= ========= =====
                                                                                            > /
                                                                                            > Jim Heckard wrote:
                                                                                            >
                                                                                            >> I will be running vintage diesel and steam, no Shay type or
                                                                                            >> logging engines,. It will be a scenic type area running through a
                                                                                            >> mountain area just for "looks" and would accommodate freight trains
                                                                                            >> and passenger cars. I still would like to know what percentage grade
                                                                                            >> would be acceptable. If I make it 70" from level to the bridge with a
                                                                                            >> 3 1/4" inch height, what percentage grade would that be ????
                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8757 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                            Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                            Hi Jim, the grade you will have with your 70" (5.83' ) run and your 3.25" (.27') rise will give you a grade rate of 4.63%. This is a steep rate for railroads. If you can cut that in half (2%+/-), you would have a more realistic rate of grade. You can calculate these figures yourself fairly easily. In engineering, 1" equals .08333' (.083' for figuring these calculations).

                                                                                            Your run length of 70" equals 70 x .083' = 5.81'

                                                                                            Your rise of 3.25" equals 3.25 x .083' = .269'

                                                                                            Then you divide the rise of .269' by the run of 5.81' and you get .04629'

                                                                                            To convert the number to a rate of grade, move the decimal point to the right two digits. This gives you a percentage of 4.62%

                                                                                            Hope it helps, Brian L


                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                            From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                            Sent: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 11:41 am
                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                                     I will be running vintage diesel and steam, no Shay type or logging engines,. It will be a scenic type area running through a mountain area just for "looks" and would accommodate freight trains and passenger cars. I still would like to know what percentage grade would be acceptable. If I make it 70" from level to the bridge with a 3 1/4" inch height, what percentage grade would that be ????
                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:30 AM
                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                            4 inches in 66 inches would be greater than 6%.  What kind of train will be using the grade... diesel, steam, geared like a shay...  length of trains?  What is the purpose of that track...  logging, industry, mining or main line?

                                                                                            Don in VA
                                                                                            ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =====


                                                                                            Jim Heckard wrote:
                                                                                                     I'm making a grade on my new layout and want to know what would be "normal"  percentage wise for HO. I'm asking all the engineers out there (both HO train modelers or those with a degree) to offer advise. I want to have a bridge crossing another track. I would like to end up having 3 1/2" to 4" clearance from the platform up to the underside of the bridge. I have  66" from level platform to the start of the bridge to work with. Is that enough distance  to get the right % grade ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Jim H 
                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8758 From: Web Shopper Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                            Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                            Jim,
                                                                                             
                                                                                            Once again I see I'm too late to the dance...all the good answers are already taken ;-)
                                                                                             
                                                                                            You may want to consider splitting the grade between both approaches, if your layout and design will allow you to do so.
                                                                                             
                                                                                            By dropping the lower approach and raising the upper approach, you would effectively cut in half the maximum grade your locomotives would have to climb, resulting in a smoother and more pleasant railroading experience ;-)
                                                                                             
                                                                                            Using a 70" approach from each direction:
                                                                                            3-1/4" separation = 2.3% grade
                                                                                            3-1/2" separation = 2.5% grade
                                                                                                 4" separation = 2.8% grade
                                                                                             
                                                                                            Using maximum stated approach from each direction (90", 96"):
                                                                                            3-1/4" separation = 1.8%, 1.7% grade
                                                                                            3-1/2" separation = 1.9%, 1.8% grade
                                                                                                 4" separation = 2.2%, 2.1% grade.
                                                                                             
                                                                                            Things to watch out for:
                                                                                            - Transition from flat track to grade track (this transition known as "vertical curve") too steep and wheels come off the track :-(
                                                                                            - Curves on the grade, which increase the "effective grade" of the track
                                                                                             
                                                                                            Rule of thumb; lower grades are better.
                                                                                             
                                                                                            Other than that, it's what looks good *and* works.
                                                                                             
                                                                                            Of course, you *could* do a board-slide test on all your locomotives...but since your collection is orders of magnitude greater than mine, you may want to skip this bit...
                                                                                            ;-)
                                                                                             
                                                                                            Thanks for the opportunity to finally share something with *you*, Jim!!
                                                                                             
                                                                                            Best wishes,
                                                                                             
                                                                                            Ken Berry
                                                                                             
                                                                                             
                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:41 AM
                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                                     I will be running vintage diesel and steam, no Shay type or logging engines,. It will be a scenic type area running through a mountain area just for "looks" and would accommodate freight trains and passenger cars. I still would like to know what percentage grade would be acceptable. If I make it 70" from level to the bridge with a 3 1/4" inch height, what percentage grade would that be ????
                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:30 AM
                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                            4 inches in 66 inches would be greater than 6%.  What kind of train will be using the grade... diesel, steam, geared like a shay...  length of trains?  What is the purpose of that track...  logging, industry, mining or main line?

                                                                                            Don in VA
                                                                                            ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =====


                                                                                            Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                     I'm making a grade on my new layout and want to know what would be "normal"  percentage wise for HO. I'm asking all the engineers out there (both HO train modelers or those with a degree) to offer advise. I want to have a bridge crossing another track. I would like to end up having 3 1/2" to 4" clearance from the platform up to the underside of the bridge. I have  66" from level platform to the start of the bridge to work with. Is that enough distance  to get the right % grade ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Jim H 
                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8759 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                            Subject: layout and area
                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                        I'm sending these pictures so you can get an idea of what I'm trying to do. The original idea was to build an oval so I could run trains I have rebuilt and repaired. The first picture will show my work bench area which is to the left. I first built a 4x8 platform with my oval to the right . I can just turn my chair and go from workbench to test oval.  Later the inside of this oval will have a rail yard built for freight. I then had a lot of track I could use so I started to add to it. I built a second 4x8 platform to expand where I could run trains. This was just to extend the distance I could run but still attached to the oval. The far side in the middle of this will be trackage for passenger trains to pull into and maybe a small town. The half circle of track in the left fore ground will be a lake area with the mountain starting on the right side to climb up a grade (under development). Out the far end to the right in another picture which is where I'm trying to get reasonably believable grades to cross the other mainline going under. Because of needed distances this last platform will be 4 x 10 but in a U shape with the others. (That is under construction now.
                                                                                                     My small problem is that my vintage collection encircles 3 of the walls. Work bench on 4th. I must still be able to walk around the outside of the platform to view the collection. While I still have a lot of room I must add 22' radius trackage around the out side but tied in to the rest to run full size passenger cars and my bigger articulateds so they look in a more natural setting radius wise but still have ample walk around space. That is why I have to limit the space for the grades.
                                                                                                    Oh well enough said. Lots to do.
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8760 From: Chris B Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                              Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                              Jim, one last trick I always remember reading about, to reduce the grade on the line crossing over,
                                                                                              if there's any way to not just have the top line go up,
                                                                                              but to also have the bottom line go down, you reduce the grade needed for the top line.
                                                                                               
                                                                                              in other words, if you can let the bottom drop below grade even a little bit,
                                                                                              and even if only for a few feet on either side of the crossing where it goes under the top line,
                                                                                              you can reduce the grade and height needed to cross it.

                                                                                              From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:56:22 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              To all who replied,
                                                                                                         I thank you for the input. I have come down to this so what ever it works out to be will have to do. On one side of the trestle I have a max of 90". and on the other side I can get 96" starting from level. The trestle will sit 3" above the track it crosses over. Of course the thickness of the trestle and the track on it will make it 3 1/4". What ever that would come out to grade wise is where it will be.
                                                                                                      This platform doesn't represent any specific RR built but the scenery will be much like upstate PA into New York (New York Central). It is to allow me to run a lot of my vintage HO. While it will be mostly 8 wheel drive types (Consolidations, Mikado's and Mountains) , I also will be running vintage post war (12 volt) items like Mantua Atlantic and Pacific, Varney Pacific and Northerns up to and including Varney Yellowstone and Winton Alleghany. Diesels will be Hobbytown E-7's ( A&B)and PA's (Double A's). They all should have no trouble pulling the loads. I will be running 6 to 8 Penn Line/Varney shorty (60') passenger cars and up to 20 freight cars for now as this track is 18 radius. Later I will be adding 22" radius.
                                                                                                      This platform will eventually have sidings that will be wired and workable but for now is just a scenic railroad to sit back and watch trains run.
                                                                                                       Mike as you state I am a believer of "if it looks good, do it". Again THANKS for the comments as I now have a little better idea of where to go
                                                                                                                                                                Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 12:37 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              I wouldn't get too caught up with the numbers. Find a piece of wood,
                                                                                              slap down a hunk of track, and see if your engines will go up a slope
                                                                                              that looks right for your layout. The real railroads would consider
                                                                                              anything approaching a 1% grade to be a problem, but we don't usually
                                                                                              have anything even remotely like their problems or distances to deal
                                                                                              with. My "rule of thumb" is that, if it looks OK and works for you, do
                                                                                              it. If you need two engines to make it up the hill with a few cars, that
                                                                                              just adds to the fun.

                                                                                              And, as far as the gears "bucking" on the downhill side, you might need
                                                                                              to put some shims on the worm gears to tighten things up a bit.

                                                                                              Mike

                                                                                              Donald R. Staton wrote:
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > /4.6%, still steep but steam or diesels and short trains could handle
                                                                                              > it. You might need 2 diesel power units or heavy steam.
                                                                                              > For regular mail line running I would try not to exceed 2.5%...
                                                                                              > Anything less than that is even better. To get percentage, divide rise
                                                                                              > by length, 3.25 inches divided by 70 inches = .046 inches in one inch
                                                                                              > times 100 inches = 4.6% grade. Grade is expressed as the rise in units
                                                                                              > of 100... inches, feet, etc.
                                                                                              > Don in VA
                                                                                              > ============ ========= ========= ========= =====
                                                                                              > /
                                                                                              > Jim Heckard wrote:
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >> I will be running vintage diesel and steam, no Shay type or
                                                                                              >> logging engines,. It will be a scenic type area running through a
                                                                                              >> mountain area just for "looks" and would accommodate freight trains
                                                                                              >> and passenger cars. I still would like to know what percentage grade
                                                                                              >> would be acceptable. If I make it 70" from level to the bridge with a
                                                                                              >> 3 1/4" inch height, what percentage grade would that be ????
                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8761 From: sean naylor Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                              Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                              Cdll phone answer: add curves to increase length of run. Sean

                                                                                              ----------
                                                                                              Sent from the Cingular network using Mobile Email

                                                                                              ------Original Message------
                                                                                              From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                              Date: Wed, Feb 18, 2009 12:18 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              Jim, one last trick I always remember reading about, to reduce the grade on the line crossing over,
                                                                                              if there's any way to not just have the top line go up,
                                                                                              but to also have the bottom line go down, you reduce the grade needed for the top line.

                                                                                              in other words, if you can let the bottom drop below grade even a little bit,
                                                                                              and even if only for a few feet on either side of the crossing where it goes under the top line,
                                                                                              you can reduce the grade and height needed to cross it.




                                                                                              ________________________________
                                                                                              From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:56:22 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???


                                                                                              To all who replied,
                                                                                                         I thank you for the input. I have come down to this so what ever it works out to be will have to do. On one side of the trestle I have a max of 90". and on the other side I can get 96" starting from level. The trestle will sit 3" above the track it crosses over. Of course the thickness of the trestle and the track on it will make it 3 1/4". What ever that would come out to grade wise is where it will be.
                                                                                                      This platform doesn't represent any specific RR built but the scenery will be much like upstate PA into New York (New York Central). It is to allow me to run a lot of my vintage HO. While it will be mostly 8 wheel drive types (Consolidations, Mikado's and Mountains) , I also will be running vintage post war (12 volt) items like Mantua Atlantic and Pacific, Varney Pacific and Northerns up to and including Varney Yellowstone and Winton Alleghany. Diesels will be Hobbytown E-7's ( A&B)and PA's (Double A's). They all should have no trouble pulling the loads. I will be running 6 to 8 Penn Line/Varney shorty (60') passenger cars and up to 20 freight cars for now as this track is 18 radius. Later I will be adding 22" radius.
                                                                                                      This platform will eventually have sidings that will be wired and workable but for now is just a scenic railroad to sit back and watch trains run.
                                                                                                       Mike as you state I am a believer of "if it looks good, do it". Again THANKS for the comments as I now have a little better idea of where to go
                                                                                                                                                                Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              From: Mike Sloane
                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 12:37 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              I wouldn't get too caught up with the numbers. Find a piece of wood,
                                                                                              slap down a hunk of track, and see if your engines will go up a slope
                                                                                              that looks right for your layout. The real railroads would consider
                                                                                              anything approaching a 1% grade to be a problem, but we don't usually
                                                                                              have anything even remotely like their problems or distances to deal
                                                                                              with. My "rule of thumb" is that, if it looks OK and works for you, do
                                                                                              it. If you need two engines to make it up the hill with a few cars, that
                                                                                              just adds to the fun.

                                                                                              And, as far as the gears "bucking" on the downhill side, you might need
                                                                                              to put some shims on the worm gears to tighten things up a bit.

                                                                                              Mike

                                                                                              Donald R. Staton wrote:
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > /4.6%, still steep but steam or diesels and short trains could handle
                                                                                              > it. You might need 2 diesel power units or heavy steam.
                                                                                              > For regular mail line running I would try not to exceed 2.5%...
                                                                                              > Anything less than that is even better. To get percentage, divide rise
                                                                                              > by length, 3.25 inches divided by 70 inches = .046 inches in one inch
                                                                                              > times 100 inches = 4.6% grade. Grade is expressed as the rise in units
                                                                                              > of 100... inches, feet, etc.
                                                                                              > Don in VA
                                                                                              > ============ ========= ========= ========= =====
                                                                                              > /
                                                                                              > Jim Heckard wrote:
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              >> I will be running vintage diesel and steam, no Shay type or
                                                                                              >> logging engines,. It will be a scenic type area running through a
                                                                                              >> mountain area just for "looks" and would accommodate freight trains
                                                                                              >> and passenger cars. I still would like to know what percentage grade
                                                                                              >> would be acceptable. If I make it 70" from level to the bridge with a
                                                                                              >> 3 1/4" inch height, what percentage grade would that be ????
                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8762 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                              Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                                Ken,
                                                                                                           Thanks for your response. Everybody doesn't have as much free time as me.  Retired and partially disabled gives me a lot. Don't feel being late means it won't be important information.
                                                                                                  I can spend a lot of computer time and respond quickly to new item. DSL will replace my dial up as soon as the outside modem comes so I will have more time and be faster. I like to "talk" to everyone and enjoy the discussions. Feel free anytime  and even off site at jimheck@... .
                                                                                                                  Take care                                           Jim 
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 2:38 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              Jim,
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Once again I see I'm too late to the dance...all the good answers are already taken ;-)
                                                                                               
                                                                                              You may want to consider splitting the grade between both approaches, if your layout and design will allow you to do so.
                                                                                               
                                                                                              By dropping the lower approach and raising the upper approach, you would effectively cut in half the maximum grade your locomotives would have to climb, resulting in a smoother and more pleasant railroading experience ;-)
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Using a 70" approach from each direction:
                                                                                              3-1/4" separation = 2.3% grade
                                                                                              3-1/2" separation = 2.5% grade
                                                                                                   4" separation = 2.8% grade
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Using maximum stated approach from each direction (90", 96"):
                                                                                              3-1/4" separation = 1.8%, 1.7% grade
                                                                                              3-1/2" separation = 1.9%, 1.8% grade
                                                                                                   4" separation = 2.2%, 2.1% grade.
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Things to watch out for:
                                                                                              - Transition from flat track to grade track (this transition known as "vertical curve") too steep and wheels come off the track :-(
                                                                                              - Curves on the grade, which increase the "effective grade" of the track
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Rule of thumb; lower grades are better.
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Other than that, it's what looks good *and* works.
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Of course, you *could* do a board-slide test on all your locomotives. ..but since your collection is orders of magnitude greater than mine, you may want to skip this bit...
                                                                                              ;-)
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Thanks for the opportunity to finally share something with *you*, Jim!!
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Best wishes,
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Ken Berry
                                                                                               
                                                                                               
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:41 AM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                                       I will be running vintage diesel and steam, no Shay type or logging engines,. It will be a scenic type area running through a mountain area just for "looks" and would accommodate freight trains and passenger cars. I still would like to know what percentage grade would be acceptable. If I make it 70" from level to the bridge with a 3 1/4" inch height, what percentage grade would that be ????
                                                                                                                                         Jim H
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:30 AM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              4 inches in 66 inches would be greater than 6%.  What kind of train will be using the grade... diesel, steam, geared like a shay...  length of trains?  What is the purpose of that track...  logging, industry, mining or main line?

                                                                                              Don in VA
                                                                                              ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =====


                                                                                              Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                       I'm making a grade on my new layout and want to know what would be "normal"  percentage wise for HO. I'm asking all the engineers out there (both HO train modelers or those with a degree) to offer advise. I want to have a bridge crossing another track. I would like to end up having 3 1/2" to 4" clearance from the platform up to the underside of the bridge. I have  66" from level platform to the start of the bridge to work with. Is that enough distance  to get the right % grade ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H 
                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8763 From: Web Shopper Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                              Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                              Thank you for the kind words, Jim.
                                                                                               
                                                                                              This group is my favorite (don't anybody spread that around, ok?) for the very reasons you mentioned...to me the atmosphere here is more like a bunch of friends gathered together at one of our homes enjoying each other's company and the hobby we love.
                                                                                               
                                                                                              As a newcomer I know that I don't have quite as bright a candle, if you will allow me the metaphor, and so I don't contribute much since there isn't much there to contribute yet, but I sure do enjoy the cameraderie.
                                                                                               
                                                                                              So to everyone on the group, thanks for being something special for me to belong to.
                                                                                               
                                                                                              <sniff> Now where did I put that kleenex...
                                                                                               
                                                                                              ;-)
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Ken Berry
                                                                                              Proud owner of precisely *one* locomotive built before I was...(I think)
                                                                                               
                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8764 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                              Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                              Jim...

                                                                                              Another factor to consider is the transition of the track from level to grade at both the top and bottom of the hill. Just as a transition is needed on curves to avoid a jarring lurch from straight track into the curve, a smooth transition is also necessary on grades. In addition to the visual impact of a locomotive suddenly nosing up as it hits the grade, abrupt changes in grade can cause equipment to come uncoupled. You can rationalize the visual factor but chronic uncoupling can drive you crazy. Once trackwork is firmly in place correcting a poor transition, especially at the top of the grade, is virtually impossible.

                                                                                              Although the prototype clearance for HO is about 25 feet (roughly 3-1/2 inches), the NMRA's 22 feet (3 inches) looks okay and will provide more than adequate clearance for most equipment. But you can go lower in some cases.

                                                                                              I have two portals on my current layout with clearances of just 20 feet (2-3/4 inches). Although they are a visual compromise, it is a compromise I can live with since it allows for milder grades with adequate vertical transition. I would urge you to measure your equipment and decide what you are going to operate before deciding what your minimum clearance can be.

                                                                                              Another thought is to build a bridge with an extremely thin floor. It won't be prototypical, but in the long run it may help make your layout operational.  

                                                                                              As one who has built five personal layouts and worked on three club layouts, I can state that the most critical factor to a successful operating layout is the trackwork. Electrical systems, lighting, themes, eras, scenery and rolling stock can all be changed, but once tracks and turnouts are firmly in place, significant changes are a major chore. This is especially true on smaller layouts where room to maneuver is limited and the support structure is closely tied to the subroadbed. 

                                                                                              Good luck.

                                                                                              Richard Bale
                                                                                              Carlsbad, CA



                                                                                              **************
                                                                                              Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003)
                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8765 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                              Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                                      I will be careful about those "transition" areas. Having built one large layout before I remember that problem. Since I will be building my own bridge/trestle for the span I need I will be watching not to take clearance away from the lower track. Thanks for your thoughts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              From: Rhbale@...
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 3:30 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              Jim...

                                                                                              Another factor to consider is the transition of the track from level to grade at both the top and bottom of the hill. Just as a transition is needed on curves to avoid a jarring lurch from straight track into the curve, a smooth transition is also necessary on grades. In addition to the visual impact of a locomotive suddenly nosing up as it hits the grade, abrupt changes in grade can cause equipment to come uncoupled. You can rationalize the visual factor but chronic uncoupling can drive you crazy. Once trackwork is firmly in place correcting a poor transition, especially at the top of the grade, is virtually impossible.

                                                                                              Although the prototype clearance for HO is about 25 feet (roughly 3-1/2 inches), the NMRA's 22 feet (3 inches) looks okay and will provide more than adequate clearance for most equipment. But you can go lower in some cases.

                                                                                              I have two portals on my current layout with clearances of just 20 feet (2-3/4 inches). Although they are a visual compromise, it is a compromise I can live with since it allows for milder grades with adequate vertical transition. I would urge you to measure your equipment and decide what you are going to operate before deciding what your minimum clearance can be.

                                                                                              Another thought is to build a bridge with an extremely thin floor. It won't be prototypical, but in the long run it may help make your layout operational.  

                                                                                              As one who has built five personal layouts and worked on three club layouts, I can state that the most critical factor to a successful operating layout is the trackwork. Electrical systems, lighting, themes, eras, scenery and rolling stock can all be changed, but once tracks and turnouts are firmly in place, significant changes are a major chore. This is especially true on smaller layouts where room to maneuver is limited and the support structure is closely tied to the subroadbed. 

                                                                                              Good luck.

                                                                                              Richard Bale
                                                                                              Carlsbad, CA



                                                                                              ************ **
                                                                                              Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages .aol.com/ search?query= employment_ agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00 000003)

                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8766 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                              Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                              Your vertical curve is an elliptical transition between two grades or a grade and a level section.  If there is a bridge at the top of two meeting grades the vertical curve will have to be ended before the bridge or part of the bridge will have to be on the vertical curve.  The vertical curve needs to be shallow enough to allow the flanged drivers on a long wheelbase steam loco to remain on the rail.  If there is a vertical curve and a horizontal curve in the same location it will be very difficult to keep the steam loco on the track.  Take great care in this area.

                                                                                              Donald Staton in VA.
                                                                                              =====================================================

                                                                                              Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                      I will be careful about those "transition" areas. Having built one large layout before I remember that problem. Since I will be building my own bridge/trestle for the span I need I will be watching not to take clearance away from the lower track. Thanks for your thoughts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              From: Rhbale@...
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 3:30 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              Jim...

                                                                                              Another factor to consider is the transition of the track from level to grade at both the top and bottom of the hill. Just as a transition is needed on curves to avoid a jarring lurch from straight track into the curve, a smooth transition is also necessary on grades. In addition to the visual impact of a locomotive suddenly nosing up as it hits the grade, abrupt changes in grade can cause equipment to come uncoupled. You can rationalize the visual factor but chronic uncoupling can drive you crazy. Once trackwork is firmly in place correcting a poor transition, especially at the top of the grade, is virtually impossible.

                                                                                              Although the prototype clearance for HO is about 25 feet (roughly 3-1/2 inches), the NMRA's 22 feet (3 inches) looks okay and will provide more than adequate clearance for most equipment. But you can go lower in some cases.

                                                                                              I have two portals on my current layout with clearances of just 20 feet (2-3/4 inches). Although they are a visual compromise, it is a compromise I can live with since it allows for milder grades with adequate vertical transition. I would urge you to measure your equipment and decide what you are going to operate before deciding what your minimum clearance can be.

                                                                                              Another thought is to build a bridge with an extremely thin floor. It won't be prototypical, but in the long run it may help make your layout operational.  

                                                                                              As one who has built five personal layouts and worked on three club layouts, I can state that the most critical factor to a successful operating layout is the trackwork. Electrical systems, lighting, themes, eras, scenery and rolling stock can all be changed, but once tracks and turnouts are firmly in place, significant changes are a major chore. This is especially true on smaller layouts where room to maneuver is limited and the support structure is closely tied to the subroadbed. 

                                                                                              Good luck.

                                                                                              Richard Bale
                                                                                              Carlsbad, CA



                                                                                              ************ **
                                                                                              Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages .aol.com/ search?query= employment_ agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00 000003)

                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8767 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                              Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                                  Don,              Yes I agree. There will be 4 points I will have to be careful. Two will be where the grades on each side leave the level and starts climbing and the other two will be where the grades end their climb and "flatten " out to cross the span (bridge / trestle).
                                                                                                      Thank goodness a part of my past training ( basic drafting from my electrical drafting degree) helps me to understand  and my machine shop schooling with tool and die plus NC and CNC training, operation, and programming help me visualize that too.
                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 8:43 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              Your vertical curve is an elliptical transition between two grades or a grade and a level section.  If there is a bridge at the top of two meeting grades the vertical curve will have to be ended before the bridge or part of the bridge will have to be on the vertical curve.  The vertical curve needs to be shallow enough to allow the flanged drivers on a long wheelbase steam loco to remain on the rail.  If there is a vertical curve and a horizontal curve in the same location it will be very difficult to keep the steam loco on the track.  Take great care in this area.

                                                                                              Donald Staton in VA.
                                                                                              ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =====

                                                                                              Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                      I will be careful about those "transition" areas. Having built one large layout before I remember that problem. Since I will be building my own bridge/trestle for the span I need I will be watching not to take clearance away from the lower track. Thanks for your thoughts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              From: Rhbale@...
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 3:30 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              Jim...

                                                                                              Another factor to consider is the transition of the track from level to grade at both the top and bottom of the hill. Just as a transition is needed on curves to avoid a jarring lurch from straight track into the curve, a smooth transition is also necessary on grades. In addition to the visual impact of a locomotive suddenly nosing up as it hits the grade, abrupt changes in grade can cause equipment to come uncoupled. You can rationalize the visual factor but chronic uncoupling can drive you crazy. Once trackwork is firmly in place correcting a poor transition, especially at the top of the grade, is virtually impossible.

                                                                                              Although the prototype clearance for HO is about 25 feet (roughly 3-1/2 inches), the NMRA's 22 feet (3 inches) looks okay and will provide more than adequate clearance for most equipment. But you can go lower in some cases.

                                                                                              I have two portals on my current layout with clearances of just 20 feet (2-3/4 inches). Although they are a visual compromise, it is a compromise I can live with since it allows for milder grades with adequate vertical transition. I would urge you to measure your equipment and decide what you are going to operate before deciding what your minimum clearance can be.

                                                                                              Another thought is to build a bridge with an extremely thin floor. It won't be prototypical, but in the long run it may help make your layout operational.  

                                                                                              As one who has built five personal layouts and worked on three club layouts, I can state that the most critical factor to a successful operating layout is the trackwork. Electrical systems, lighting, themes, eras, scenery and rolling stock can all be changed, but once tracks and turnouts are firmly in place, significant changes are a major chore. This is especially true on smaller layouts where room to maneuver is limited and the support structure is closely tied to the subroadbed. 

                                                                                              Good luck.

                                                                                              Richard Bale
                                                                                              Carlsbad, CA



                                                                                              ************ **
                                                                                              Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages .aol.com/ search?query= employment_ agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00 000003)

                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8768 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                              Subject: Re: StromBecKer Catalog Listing

                                                                                              Will do.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                                               

                                                                                              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:42 AM
                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                              Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: StromBecKer Catalog Listing

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Chuck H, Since questions about this manufacturer pop up from time to
                                                                                              time, I thought you might want to make a spread sheet for it, for the
                                                                                              files. You already have most of the passenger equipment, except for
                                                                                              the R.I. Rocket, which oddly enough didn't have a catalog number in
                                                                                              its listing. I'll include original prices, if only for amusement
                                                                                              here. You don't need to list them, but can if you want. I can't
                                                                                              give you the road numbers but will just supply the color.

                                                                                              Strombeck-Becker Mfg. Co., Moline , IL * 200 Fifth Ave., NY

                                                                                              H0 Scale Models:

                                                                                              1937 Rock Island Rocket: Set - A-unit & 3 cars ($1.79)

                                                                                              R-100 H0 Freight Train: Set - Mikado engine & tender, 3 freight cars
                                                                                              (Pacemaker box, Shell tank and PFE reefer) and NYC Caboose. ($2.79)

                                                                                              R-1 Locomotice & Tender - Mikado ($1.19)

                                                                                              R-2 N.Y.C. Caboose, Red (40 cents)

                                                                                              R-10 N.Y.C. Pacemaker Box Car, Red & Grey (40 cents)

                                                                                              R-11 B&O Sentinel Box Car, Silver & Blue (40 cents)

                                                                                              R-12 M.K.T. "KATY" Box Car, Yellow (40 cents)

                                                                                              R-21 SP-UP Pacific Fruit Express Refrigerator, Orange (40 cents)

                                                                                              R-22 A.T.S.F. "Chief" Refrigerator, Orange (40 cents)

                                                                                              R-23 Illinois Central Refrigerator, Yellow (40 cents)

                                                                                              R-31 Shell Chemical Tank Car, Yellow (40 cents)

                                                                                              R-32 Hercules Powder Tank Car (40 cents)

                                                                                              R-33 Heinz Vinegar Tank Car, Yellow (40 cents)

                                                                                              R-41 Chesapeake & Ohio Hopper Car, Black (40 cents)

                                                                                              Historic - 0 Scale Models:

                                                                                              1831-C DeWitt Clinton Engine & Tender (59 cents)

                                                                                              1831-GT DeWitt Clinton Set: Engine & Tender and 2 Coaches ($1.19)

                                                                                              R-131 DeWitt Clinton Set: Two Coaches (59 cents)

                                                                                              1837-C Wm. Galloway Engine & Tender (59 cents)

                                                                                              1837-BT Wm. Galloway Set: Engine & Tender and 2 Freight Cars ($1.19)

                                                                                              R-137 Wm. Galloway Set: Two Freight Cars (59 cents)

                                                                                              1848-C C&NW Pioneer" Engine & Tender (79 cents)

                                                                                              1848-NT C&NW "Pioneer" Set: Engine & Tender and 1 Passenger Car (1.39)

                                                                                              R-148 C&NW "Pioneer": One Coach (69 cents)

                                                                                              Don't recall the color of the Hercules Poeder tank, it could be
                                                                                              either black or red. Maybe someone else might know. Ray Wetzel

                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8769 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                              Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain

                                                                                              Soon.

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                                               

                                                                                              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:25 AM
                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                              Cc: Jim Waterman
                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Aristo Craft/New One ountain

                                                                                               

                                                                                                        I just sent these pictures to a 96 year old gentleman from Atlanta Georgia who wanted to see this engine. Since they are still loaded in my computer, and before I delete, I thought I would pass this on.

                                                                                                   This 4-8-2 zamac Mountain was sold by Polk's Hobbies under the Aristo Craft name. It was made in Japan by New One. It runs fairly nice, is very heavy and has a pretty nice valve gear set up for a metal engine made by New One. I have 17 different New One engines that were made for Polk and HOTCO (HO Train Co/ General Hobbies Co.). A FEW were sold by both.

                                                                                                   Thought some might like to see this. Chuck H, PLEASE enter into the album.

                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8770 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                              Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                              My background is Civil and Structural Engineering...  Highway Location and Design concerning horizontal alignment and vertical profile plus Bridges on vertical and horizontal curves and complex Buildings.  My last HO layout has numerous curved switches and several table joints.  I had to do some shimming and some filling in to keep my 2-10-4 on the rails at the entrance to a curve because the table joint created a vertical curve that was too sharp causing the front drivers to ride over the rail.  All turnouts are the old Atlas solid rail type with all rail frogs.  Alignment of track, track gauge, curves, changes in grade and switches are the critical areas.  Use your standards gauge to keep it in gauge and to check switch alignment, flangeways and clearances at frogs and guard rails.  If you get all this right, it is fun to run trains.  Any faults will put trains on the ties.

                                                                                              Be sure to check wheel gauge on what you run as well.

                                                                                              Happy railroading...

                                                                                              Donald Staton in VA.
                                                                                              ================================================

                                                                                              Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                  Don,              Yes I agree. There will be 4 points I will have to be careful. Two will be where the grades on each side leave the level and starts climbing and the other two will be where the grades end their climb and "flatten " out to cross the span (bridge / trestle).
                                                                                                      Thank goodness a part of my past training ( basic drafting from my electrical drafting degree) helps me to understand  and my machine shop schooling with tool and die plus NC and CNC training, operation, and programming help me visualize that too.
                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 8:43 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              Your vertical curve is an elliptical transition between two grades or a grade and a level section.  If there is a bridge at the top of two meeting grades the vertical curve will have to be ended before the bridge or part of the bridge will have to be on the vertical curve.  The vertical curve needs to be shallow enough to allow the flanged drivers on a long wheelbase steam loco to remain on the rail.  If there is a vertical curve and a horizontal curve in the same location it will be very difficult to keep the steam loco on the track.  Take great care in this area.

                                                                                              Donald Staton in VA.
                                                                                              ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =====

                                                                                              Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                      I will be careful about those "transition" areas. Having built one large layout before I remember that problem. Since I will be building my own bridge/trestle for the span I need I will be watching not to take clearance away from the lower track. Thanks for your thoughts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              From: Rhbale@...
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 3:30 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              Jim...

                                                                                              Another factor to consider is the transition of the track from level to grade at both the top and bottom of the hill. Just as a transition is needed on curves to avoid a jarring lurch from straight track into the curve, a smooth transition is also necessary on grades. In addition to the visual impact of a locomotive suddenly nosing up as it hits the grade, abrupt changes in grade can cause equipment to come uncoupled. You can rationalize the visual factor but chronic uncoupling can drive you crazy. Once trackwork is firmly in place correcting a poor transition, especially at the top of the grade, is virtually impossible.

                                                                                              Although the prototype clearance for HO is about 25 feet (roughly 3-1/2 inches), the NMRA's 22 feet (3 inches) looks okay and will provide more than adequate clearance for most equipment. But you can go lower in some cases.

                                                                                              I have two portals on my current layout with clearances of just 20 feet (2-3/4 inches). Although they are a visual compromise, it is a compromise I can live with since it allows for milder grades with adequate vertical transition. I would urge you to measure your equipment and decide what you are going to operate before deciding what your minimum clearance can be.

                                                                                              Another thought is to build a bridge with an extremely thin floor. It won't be prototypical, but in the long run it may help make your layout operational.  

                                                                                              As one who has built five personal layouts and worked on three club layouts, I can state that the most critical factor to a successful operating layout is the trackwork. Electrical systems, lighting, themes, eras, scenery and rolling stock can all be changed, but once tracks and turnouts are firmly in place, significant changes are a major chore. This is especially true on smaller layouts where room to maneuver is limited and the support structure is closely tied to the subroadbed. 

                                                                                              Good luck.

                                                                                              Richard Bale
                                                                                              Carlsbad, CA



                                                                                              ************ **
                                                                                              Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages .aol.com/ search?query= employment_ agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00 000003)

                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8771 From: Chris B Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                              Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              Jim, all that's helpful.  I have some similar background, in construction and drafting, as well as cabinetmaking and historic millwork. 

                                                                                              But since woodland scenics brought out foam inclines in different grades that form smooth easement horizontal curves and smooth vertical transitions, I confess I haven't done anything but get some pieces, pin them down in a rough outline, pin some flex track down, and run all the problem engines till the grade and the curve don't give them any problem...

                                                                                              just a thought...you don't have to use them for the permanent layout, but a few pieces are very helpful for hands on planning.
                                                                                              From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:05:52 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                                  Don,              Yes I agree. There will be 4 points I will have to be careful. Two will be where the grades on each side leave the level and starts climbing and the other two will be where the grades end their climb and "flatten " out to cross the span (bridge / trestle).
                                                                                                      Thank goodness a part of my past training ( basic drafting from my electrical drafting degree) helps me to understand  and my machine shop schooling with tool and die plus NC and CNC training, operation, and programming help me visualize that too.
                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 8:43 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              Your vertical curve is an elliptical transition between two grades or a grade and a level section.  If there is a bridge at the top of two meeting grades the vertical curve will have to be ended before the bridge or part of the bridge will have to be on the vertical curve.  The vertical curve needs to be shallow enough to allow the flanged drivers on a long wheelbase steam loco to remain on the rail.  If there is a vertical curve and a horizontal curve in the same location it will be very difficult to keep the steam loco on the track.  Take great care in this area.

                                                                                              Donald Staton in VA.
                                                                                              ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =====

                                                                                              Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                      I will be careful about those "transition" areas. Having built one large layout before I remember that problem. Since I will be building my own bridge/trestle for the span I need I will be watching not to take clearance away from the lower track. Thanks for your thoughts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              From: Rhbale@...
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 3:30 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              Jim...

                                                                                              Another factor to consider is the transition of the track from level to grade at both the top and bottom of the hill. Just as a transition is needed on curves to avoid a jarring lurch from straight track into the curve, a smooth transition is also necessary on grades. In addition to the visual impact of a locomotive suddenly nosing up as it hits the grade, abrupt changes in grade can cause equipment to come uncoupled. You can rationalize the visual factor but chronic uncoupling can drive you crazy. Once trackwork is firmly in place correcting a poor transition, especially at the top of the grade, is virtually impossible.

                                                                                              Although the prototype clearance for HO is about 25 feet (roughly 3-1/2 inches), the NMRA's 22 feet (3 inches) looks okay and will provide more than adequate clearance for most equipment. But you can go lower in some cases.

                                                                                              I have two portals on my current layout with clearances of just 20 feet (2-3/4 inches). Although they are a visual compromise, it is a compromise I can live with since it allows for milder grades with adequate vertical transition. I would urge you to measure your equipment and decide what you are going to operate before deciding what your minimum clearance can be.

                                                                                              Another thought is to build a bridge with an extremely thin floor. It won't be prototypical, but in the long run it may help make your layout operational.  

                                                                                              As one who has built five personal layouts and worked on three club layouts, I can state that the most critical factor to a successful operating layout is the trackwork. Electrical systems, lighting, themes, eras, scenery and rolling stock can all be changed, but once tracks and turnouts are firmly in place, significant changes are a major chore. This is especially true on smaller layouts where room to maneuver is limited and the support structure is closely tied to the subroadbed. 

                                                                                              Good luck.

                                                                                              Richard Bale
                                                                                              Carlsbad, CA



                                                                                              ************ **
                                                                                              Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages .aol.com/ search?query= employment_ agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00 000003)


                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8772 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                              Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                              Chris,
                                                                                                     I must confess that I knew nothing about those Woodland Scenic foam pieces. I think they would be very helpful. To bad any well stock local hobby shop is almost an hour drive away. I guess you could mail order but I will create wedges/ shims of wood to match the needed pitch to start the transition from level.
                                                                                                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              From: Chris B
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:58 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???


                                                                                              Jim, all that's helpful.  I have some similar background, in construction and drafting, as well as cabinetmaking and historic millwork. 

                                                                                              But since woodland scenics brought out foam inclines in different grades that form smooth easement horizontal curves and smooth vertical transitions, I confess I haven't done anything but get some pieces, pin them down in a rough outline, pin some flex track down, and run all the problem engines till the grade and the curve don't give them any problem...

                                                                                              just a thought...you don't have to use them for the permanent layout, but a few pieces are very helpful for hands on planning.
                                                                                              From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:05:52 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                                  Don,              Yes I agree. There will be 4 points I will have to be careful. Two will be where the grades on each side leave the level and starts climbing and the other two will be where the grades end their climb and "flatten " out to cross the span (bridge / trestle).
                                                                                                      Thank goodness a part of my past training ( basic drafting from my electrical drafting degree) helps me to understand  and my machine shop schooling with tool and die plus NC and CNC training, operation, and programming help me visualize that too.
                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 8:43 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              Your vertical curve is an elliptical transition between two grades or a grade and a level section.  If there is a bridge at the top of two meeting grades the vertical curve will have to be ended before the bridge or part of the bridge will have to be on the vertical curve.  The vertical curve needs to be shallow enough to allow the flanged drivers on a long wheelbase steam loco to remain on the rail.  If there is a vertical curve and a horizontal curve in the same location it will be very difficult to keep the steam loco on the track.  Take great care in this area.

                                                                                              Donald Staton in VA.
                                                                                              ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =====

                                                                                              Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                      I will be careful about those "transition" areas. Having built one large layout before I remember that problem. Since I will be building my own bridge/trestle for the span I need I will be watching not to take clearance away from the lower track. Thanks for your thoughts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              From: Rhbale@...
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 3:30 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              Jim...

                                                                                              Another factor to consider is the transition of the track from level to grade at both the top and bottom of the hill. Just as a transition is needed on curves to avoid a jarring lurch from straight track into the curve, a smooth transition is also necessary on grades. In addition to the visual impact of a locomotive suddenly nosing up as it hits the grade, abrupt changes in grade can cause equipment to come uncoupled. You can rationalize the visual factor but chronic uncoupling can drive you crazy. Once trackwork is firmly in place correcting a poor transition, especially at the top of the grade, is virtually impossible.

                                                                                              Although the prototype clearance for HO is about 25 feet (roughly 3-1/2 inches), the NMRA's 22 feet (3 inches) looks okay and will provide more than adequate clearance for most equipment. But you can go lower in some cases.

                                                                                              I have two portals on my current layout with clearances of just 20 feet (2-3/4 inches). Although they are a visual compromise, it is a compromise I can live with since it allows for milder grades with adequate vertical transition. I would urge you to measure your equipment and decide what you are going to operate before deciding what your minimum clearance can be.

                                                                                              Another thought is to build a bridge with an extremely thin floor. It won't be prototypical, but in the long run it may help make your layout operational.  

                                                                                              As one who has built five personal layouts and worked on three club layouts, I can state that the most critical factor to a successful operating layout is the trackwork. Electrical systems, lighting, themes, eras, scenery and rolling stock can all be changed, but once tracks and turnouts are firmly in place, significant changes are a major chore. This is especially true on smaller layouts where room to maneuver is limited and the support structure is closely tied to the subroadbed. 

                                                                                              Good luck.

                                                                                              Richard Bale
                                                                                              Carlsbad, CA



                                                                                              ************ **
                                                                                              Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages .aol.com/ search?query= employment_ agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00 000003)


                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8773 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                              Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                                  Don,                                     Your background is perfect for this grade transition "problem" in miniature. I will make those transition points as smooth as possible  and run different engines to make sure it is right before I go further like ballast. Thanks for your thoughts and comments.
                                                                                                Hey maybe if you are not to busy in Virginia you can come to Pennsylvania and help fix our bridges especially the Interstates.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Jim
                                                                                                            
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:55 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              My background is Civil and Structural Engineering. ..  Highway Location and Design concerning horizontal alignment and vertical profile plus Bridges on vertical and horizontal curves and complex Buildings.  My last HO layout has numerous curved switches and several table joints.  I had to do some shimming and some filling in to keep my 2-10-4 on the rails at the entrance to a curve because the table joint created a vertical curve that was too sharp causing the front drivers to ride over the rail.  All turnouts are the old Atlas solid rail type with all rail frogs.  Alignment of track, track gauge, curves, changes in grade and switches are the critical areas.  Use your standards gauge to keep it in gauge and to check switch alignment, flangeways and clearances at frogs and guard rails.  If you get all this right, it is fun to run trains.  Any faults will put trains on the ties.

                                                                                              Be sure to check wheel gauge on what you run as well.

                                                                                              Happy railroading. ..

                                                                                              Donald Staton in VA.
                                                                                              ============ ========= ========= ========= =========

                                                                                              Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                  Don,              Yes I agree. There will be 4 points I will have to be careful. Two will be where the grades on each side leave the level and starts climbing and the other two will be where the grades end their climb and "flatten " out to cross the span (bridge / trestle).
                                                                                                      Thank goodness a part of my past training ( basic drafting from my electrical drafting degree) helps me to understand  and my machine shop schooling with tool and die plus NC and CNC training, operation, and programming help me visualize that too.
                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 8:43 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              Your vertical curve is an elliptical transition between two grades or a grade and a level section.  If there is a bridge at the top of two meeting grades the vertical curve will have to be ended before the bridge or part of the bridge will have to be on the vertical curve.  The vertical curve needs to be shallow enough to allow the flanged drivers on a long wheelbase steam loco to remain on the rail.  If there is a vertical curve and a horizontal curve in the same location it will be very difficult to keep the steam loco on the track.  Take great care in this area.

                                                                                              Donald Staton in VA.
                                                                                              ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =====

                                                                                              Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                      I will be careful about those "transition" areas. Having built one large layout before I remember that problem. Since I will be building my own bridge/trestle for the span I need I will be watching not to take clearance away from the lower track. Thanks for your thoughts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              From: Rhbale@...
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 3:30 PM
                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                              Jim...

                                                                                              Another factor to consider is the transition of the track from level to grade at both the top and bottom of the hill. Just as a transition is needed on curves to avoid a jarring lurch from straight track into the curve, a smooth transition is also necessary on grades. In addition to the visual impact of a locomotive suddenly nosing up as it hits the grade, abrupt changes in grade can cause equipment to come uncoupled. You can rationalize the visual factor but chronic uncoupling can drive you crazy. Once trackwork is firmly in place correcting a poor transition, especially at the top of the grade, is virtually impossible.

                                                                                              Although the prototype clearance for HO is about 25 feet (roughly 3-1/2 inches), the NMRA's 22 feet (3 inches) looks okay and will provide more than adequate clearance for most equipment. But you can go lower in some cases.

                                                                                              I have two portals on my current layout with clearances of just 20 feet (2-3/4 inches). Although they are a visual compromise, it is a compromise I can live with since it allows for milder grades with adequate vertical transition. I would urge you to measure your equipment and decide what you are going to operate before deciding what your minimum clearance can be.

                                                                                              Another thought is to build a bridge with an extremely thin floor. It won't be prototypical, but in the long run it may help make your layout operational.  

                                                                                              As one who has built five personal layouts and worked on three club layouts, I can state that the most critical factor to a successful operating layout is the trackwork. Electrical systems, lighting, themes, eras, scenery and rolling stock can all be changed, but once tracks and turnouts are firmly in place, significant changes are a major chore. This is especially true on smaller layouts where room to maneuver is limited and the support structure is closely tied to the subroadbed. 

                                                                                              Good luck.

                                                                                              Richard Bale
                                                                                              Carlsbad, CA



                                                                                              ************ **
                                                                                              Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages .aol.com/ search?query= employment_ agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00 000003)

                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8774 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                              Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
                                                                                              Nice to hear that one of the 4-8-2s is around. I have one of the
                                                                                              Frisco Mikados that New One did and was sold under the Aristo Craft
                                                                                              name. They must have solved the die casting problem with this loco
                                                                                              because the Mikado boiler casting is perfect, no deterioration after
                                                                                              60 years, and it runs superbly.

                                                                                              Matt

                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > I just sent these pictures to a 96 year old gentleman from
                                                                                              Atlanta Georgia who wanted to see this engine. Since they are still
                                                                                              loaded in my computer, and before I delete, I thought I would pass
                                                                                              this on.
                                                                                              > This 4-8-2 zamac Mountain was sold by Polk's Hobbies under the
                                                                                              Aristo Craft name. It was made in Japan by New One. It runs fairly
                                                                                              nice, is very heavy and has a pretty nice valve gear set up for a
                                                                                              metal engine made by New One. I have 17 different New One engines that
                                                                                              were made for Polk and HOTCO (HO Train Co/ General Hobbies Co.). A FEW
                                                                                              were sold by both.
                                                                                              > Thought some might like to see this. Chuck H, PLEASE enter into
                                                                                              the album.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8775 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/18/2009
                                                                                              Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
                                                                                              Hi Matt,
                                                                                                 For the most part the New One zamac cast steam engines sold under the Aristo Craft name by Polk's Hobby didn't have a real lot of "zinc pest" problems except for side frames on the tender trucks (although a lot of that could have been to delicate of a design). The exception was the tenders for the 4-4-2 SP Atlantic type. (This engine was sold under both the Aristo Craft and HOTCO name) Yet the New One zamac cast steam engines that were sold under the HOTCO (HO Train Company) by GHC (General Hobbies Corporation of Philadelphia) did.  The worst seemed to be the CNJ 4-6-0 Camelback and the above SP type Atlantic. The "normal" 4-6-0 and the little 0-4-0  sold by HOTCO / GHC were not to bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:42 PM
                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain

                                                                                              Nice to hear that one of the 4-8-2s is around. I have one of the
                                                                                              Frisco Mikados that New One did and was sold under the Aristo Craft
                                                                                              name. They must have solved the die casting problem with this loco
                                                                                              because the Mikado boiler casting is perfect, no deterioration after
                                                                                              60 years, and it runs superbly.

                                                                                              Matt

                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > I just sent these pictures to a 96 year old gentleman from
                                                                                              Atlanta Georgia who wanted to see this engine. Since they are still
                                                                                              loaded in my computer, and before I delete, I thought I would pass
                                                                                              this on.
                                                                                              > This 4-8-2 zamac Mountain was sold by Polk's Hobbies under the
                                                                                              Aristo Craft name. It was made in Japan by New One. It runs fairly
                                                                                              nice, is very heavy and has a pretty nice valve gear set up for a
                                                                                              metal engine made by New One. I have 17 different New One engines that
                                                                                              were made for Polk and HOTCO (HO Train Co/ General Hobbies Co.). A FEW
                                                                                              were sold by both.
                                                                                              > Thought some might like to see this. Chuck H, PLEASE enter into
                                                                                              the album.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8776 From: railwaymodeler Date: 2/19/2009
                                                                                              Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
                                                                                              I also have the Frisco 'Mike', and like yours, Matt, mine is in superb
                                                                                              condition.

                                                                                              One thing I wonder- were there mikados that big? It is significantly
                                                                                              larger than a Mantua mikado. Put it this way- I use my Aristo Craft
                                                                                              mikado to pull OO scale Scale-Craft passenger cars (fitted onto HO
                                                                                              trucks, of course), and they all look proportionally 'right' together.

                                                                                              Not that I am complaining- I have a Scale-Craft baggage car, coach,
                                                                                              and observation car (Rebuilt from a coach with a damaged vestibule),
                                                                                              and until I got the Aristo Craft mikado, I was wondering what I would
                                                                                              use to pull this train.

                                                                                              -Steve Neubaum




                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...>
                                                                                              wrote:
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > Nice to hear that one of the 4-8-2s is around. I have one of the
                                                                                              > Frisco Mikados that New One did and was sold under the Aristo Craft
                                                                                              > name. They must have solved the die casting problem with this loco
                                                                                              > because the Mikado boiler casting is perfect, no deterioration after
                                                                                              > 60 years, and it runs superbly.
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > Matt
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > > I just sent these pictures to a 96 year old gentleman from
                                                                                              > Atlanta Georgia who wanted to see this engine. Since they are still
                                                                                              > loaded in my computer, and before I delete, I thought I would pass
                                                                                              > this on.
                                                                                              > > This 4-8-2 zamac Mountain was sold by Polk's Hobbies under the
                                                                                              > Aristo Craft name. It was made in Japan by New One. It runs fairly
                                                                                              > nice, is very heavy and has a pretty nice valve gear set up for a
                                                                                              > metal engine made by New One. I have 17 different New One engines that
                                                                                              > were made for Polk and HOTCO (HO Train Co/ General Hobbies Co.). A FEW
                                                                                              > were sold by both.
                                                                                              > > Thought some might like to see this. Chuck H, PLEASE enter into
                                                                                              > the album.
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              > Jim H
                                                                                              > >
                                                                                              >
                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8777 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/19/2009
                                                                                              Subject: Aristo Craft/New One Mikes
                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                Matt, Steve, All,
                                                                                                         Since there has been discussion going on concerning Aristo Craft Mikados made by New One Japan I sent these pictures from my collection so maybe you can help answer some Questions.
                                                                                                         Question No. 1 deals with two types of tenders available with the Frisco Mikado. You will see one has a shorter tender with 2 axle tender trucks and the other has a longer tender with 3 axle tender trucks. Boxes used by Polk Hobbies and Aristo Craft Distinctive Miniature catalogs show the New One Frisco Mikado with the 3 axle tender. I am assuming that the 3 axle tender came first because it shows up in "advertising" I have. Does any one know for sure which was first and when / why the other 2 axle tender became available ???
                                                                                                        Question 2  concerns the many different numbers that appear on the two tender types. I have seen this 4 digit gold number change on these Mikados (type of tender doesn't seem to matter) . I purposely check the numbers when this Frisco Mike comes up on Ebay just to see the different numbers available. It is odd to see a "massed" produced engine changing numbers. Even stared to think that each engine had a different number used like it was a production serial number for a limited amount of engines. That of course doesn't hold water. Also advertisements for the engine show a 3 digit number on the tender. I think it is 346. Does any one know the rhyme or reason behind these changing numbers ?
                                                                                                         While it might not mean anything and is not a scientific study,I have yet to see either the Mikado or Mountain engines made for Aristo Craft by New One have a "zinc pest (cracking/crumbling) problem.
                                                                                                         One final thought as to the size issue brought up by Steve. Could it be that this engine is"normal" HO size when compared to early HO that was actually undersized as to scale or could it be oversized like OO but able to run HO track ?  I leave that up to the experts in those areas.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8778 From: jerrygart5 Date: 2/19/2009
                                                                                                Subject: Re: any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                                Jim: If you can't get the Woodland Scenics stuff easily, look around
                                                                                                the lumber yard for a bundle of cedar shake shingles. (Sometimes you
                                                                                                can find a broken bundle, and negotiate a reduced price; a couple
                                                                                                dozen pieces will go a long way!) They are tapered, and easy to cut.
                                                                                                You can use with 1 x 4 lumber to build up a riser and "play" with the
                                                                                                taper under the track until everything works right.
                                                                                                Cut them longways about 2 1/2" wide, and then as you need a wedge, cut
                                                                                                what you need out of this 2 1/2" wide piece for your shim. If you want
                                                                                                to elevate the outer rail on a horizontal curve, they are easy to sand
                                                                                                as well.
                                                                                                Hope this helps!! Jerry Garteiser





                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                . . . I guess you could mail order but I will create wedges/ shims of
                                                                                                wood to match the needed pitch to start the transition from level.
                                                                                                >
                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8779 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 2/19/2009
                                                                                                Subject: shims (was) any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                                You can also get a package of shims (intended for truing up door frames and
                                                                                                the like), about 12" long, go from 0 to about 1/4 inch high.

                                                                                                Willard

                                                                                                At 09:22 AM 2/19/2009, you wrote:

                                                                                                >Jim: If you can't get the Woodland Scenics stuff easily, look around
                                                                                                >the lumber yard for a bundle of cedar shake shingles. (Sometimes you
                                                                                                >can find a broken bundle, and negotiate a reduced price; a couple
                                                                                                >dozen pieces will go a long way!) They are tapered, and easy to cut.
                                                                                                >You can use with 1 x 4 lumber to build up a riser and "play" with the
                                                                                                >taper under the track until everything works right.
                                                                                                >Cut them longways about 2 1/2" wide, and then as you need a wedge, cut
                                                                                                >what you need out of this 2 1/2" wide piece for your shim. If you want
                                                                                                >to elevate the outer rail on a horizontal curve, they are easy to sand
                                                                                                >as well.
                                                                                                >Hope this helps!! Jerry Garteiser
                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8780 From: John Hagen Date: 2/19/2009
                                                                                                Subject: Re: StromBecKer Catalog Listing
                                                                                                Attachments :

                                                                                                  Don, Chuck and group et al,

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                  Interestingly enough while paging through an old MR (November 1949 specifically) during one of my overnight library sessions, low and behold, what did I see before my very eyes but this StromBecKer ad. I am certain from experience Kalmbach will have no problem with me copying and posting this minute portion of a near 60 year-old magazine so long as credit is given. And credit is given so here ‘tis.

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                  John Hagen

                                                                                                  Saint Francis (Formerly Town of Lake ), WI

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Chuck Higdon
                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 20:11
                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: StromBecKer Catalog Listing

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                  Will do.

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:42 AM
                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                  Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: StromBecKer Catalog Listing

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                  Chuck H, Since questions about this manufacturer pop up from time to
                                                                                                  time, I thought you might want to make a spread sheet for it, for the
                                                                                                  files. You already have most of the passenger equipment, except for
                                                                                                  the R.I. Rocket, which oddly enough didn't have a catalog number in
                                                                                                  its listing. I'll include original prices, if only for amusement
                                                                                                  here. You don't need to list them, but can if you want. I can't
                                                                                                  give you the road numbers but will just supply the color.

                                                                                                  Strombeck-Becker Mfg. Co., Moline , IL * 200 Fifth Ave., NY

                                                                                                  H0 Scale Models:

                                                                                                  1937 Rock Island Rocket: Set - A-unit & 3 cars ($1.79)

                                                                                                  R-100 H0 Freight Train: Set - Mikado engine & tender, 3 freight cars
                                                                                                  (Pacemaker box, Shell tank and PFE reefer) and NYC Caboose. ($2.79)

                                                                                                  R-1 Locomotice & Tender - Mikado ($1.19)

                                                                                                  R-2 N.Y.C. Caboose, Red (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-10 N.Y.C. Pacemaker Box Car, Red & Grey (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-11 B&O Sentinel Box Car, Silver & Blue (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-12 M.K.T. "KATY" Box Car, Yellow (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-21 SP-UP Pacific Fruit Express Refrigerator, Orange (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-22 A.T.S.F. "Chief" Refrigerator, Orange (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-23 Illinois Central Refrigerator, Yellow (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-31 Shell Chemical Tank Car, Yellow (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-32 Hercules Powder Tank Car (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-33 Heinz Vinegar Tank Car, Yellow (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-41 Chesapeake & Ohio Hopper Car, Black (40 cents)

                                                                                                  Historic - 0 Scale Models:

                                                                                                  1831-C DeWitt Clinton Engine & Tender (59 cents)

                                                                                                  1831-GT DeWitt Clinton Set: Engine & Tender and 2 Coaches ($1.19)

                                                                                                  R-131 DeWitt Clinton Set: Two Coaches (59 cents)

                                                                                                  1837-C Wm. Galloway Engine & Tender (59 cents)

                                                                                                  1837-BT Wm. Galloway Set: Engine & Tender and 2 Freight Cars ($1.19)

                                                                                                  R-137 Wm. Galloway Set: Two Freight Cars (59 cents)

                                                                                                  1848-C C&NW Pioneer" Engine & Tender (79 cents)

                                                                                                  1848-NT C&NW "Pioneer" Set: Engine & Tender and 1 Passenger Car (1.39)

                                                                                                  R-148 C&NW "Pioneer": One Coach (69 cents)

                                                                                                  Don't recall the color of the Hercules Poeder tank, it could be
                                                                                                  either black or red. Maybe someone else might know. Ray Wetzel

                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8781 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/19/2009
                                                                                                  Subject: Re: shims (was) any rule of thumb ???
                                                                                                  William S, Jerry G, All
                                                                                                                   Thanks for those ideas. I am using the pre cut shims of wood already. They work out well for making the transition from level to the needed grade rise. Like you said just a little "playing" around needed.
                                                                                                                   Now that I know the best percentage grade for good performance, how many inches I need leading up to the needed height for the bridge/trestle for that clearance the railroad crew has started the grade. Again THANKS to so many who responded.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                            
                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 9:40 AM
                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] shims (was) any rule of thumb ???

                                                                                                  You can also get a package of shims (intended for truing up door frames and
                                                                                                  the like), about 12" long, go from 0 to about 1/4 inch high.

                                                                                                  Willard

                                                                                                  At 09:22 AM 2/19/2009, you wrote:

                                                                                                  >Jim: If you can't get the Woodland Scenics stuff easily, look around
                                                                                                  >the lumber yard for a bundle of cedar shake shingles. (Sometimes you
                                                                                                  >can find a broken bundle, and negotiate a reduced price; a couple
                                                                                                  >dozen pieces will go a long way!) They are tapered, and easy to cut.
                                                                                                  >You can use with 1 x 4 lumber to build up a riser and "play" with the
                                                                                                  >taper under the track until everything works right.
                                                                                                  >Cut them longways about 2 1/2" wide, and then as you need a wedge, cut
                                                                                                  >what you need out of this 2 1/2" wide piece for your shim. If you want
                                                                                                  >to elevate the outer rail on a horizontal curve, they are easy to sand
                                                                                                  >as well.
                                                                                                  >Hope this helps!! Jerry Garteiser
                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8782 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 2/19/2009
                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
                                                                                                  Jim,

                                                                                                  Thanks for the triage info. I have a couple of the old Aristo Craft
                                                                                                  C&NW 4-4-2s that seem to have the zinc 'pest' but other than that,
                                                                                                  most of mine are just old and have been well used. I have been worried
                                                                                                  that while I am finishing out my last year in the Navy and my locos
                                                                                                  are at home in storage they will be slowly disintegrating.

                                                                                                  Your message gives me some hope for my collection.

                                                                                                  Matt

                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                  > Hi Matt,
                                                                                                  > For the most part the New One zamac cast steam engines sold under
                                                                                                  the Aristo Craft name by Polk's Hobby didn't have a real lot of "zinc
                                                                                                  pest" problems except for side frames on the tender trucks (although a
                                                                                                  lot of that could have been to delicate of a design). The exception
                                                                                                  was the tenders for the 4-4-2 SP Atlantic type. (This engine was sold
                                                                                                  under both the Aristo Craft and HOTCO name) Yet the New One zamac cast
                                                                                                  steam engines that were sold under the HOTCO (HO Train Company) by GHC
                                                                                                  (General Hobbies Corporation of Philadelphia) did. The worst seemed
                                                                                                  to be the CNJ 4-6-0 Camelback and the above SP type Atlantic. The
                                                                                                  "normal" 4-6-0 and the little 0-4-0 sold by HOTCO / GHC were not to bad.
                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8783 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/19/2009
                                                                                                  Subject: Re: StromBecKer Catalog Listing
                                                                                                  John,
                                                                                                                 Enjoyed that StromBecker add you sent. I know people would power some of these units to run but I never knew StromBecker sold power units and trucks for them. An interesting tidbit.
                                                                                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                  From: John Hagen
                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:46 AM
                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: StromBecKer Catalog Listing

                                                                                                  Don, Chuck and group et al,

                                                                                                  Interestingly enough while paging through an old MR (November 1949 specifically) during one of my overnight library sessions, low and behold, what did I see before my very eyes but this StromBecKer ad. I am certain from experience Kalmbach will have no problem with me copying and posting this minute portion of a near 60 year-old magazine so long as credit is given. And credit is given so here ‘tis.

                                                                                                  John Hagen

                                                                                                  Saint Francis (Formerly Town of Lake ), WI

                                                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chuck Higdon
                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 20:11
                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: StromBecKer Catalog Listing

                                                                                                  Will do.

                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

                                                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:42 AM
                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                  Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: StromBecKer Catalog Listing

                                                                                                  Chuck H, Since questions about this manufacturer pop up from time to
                                                                                                  time, I thought you might want to make a spread sheet for it, for the
                                                                                                  files. You already have most of the passenger equipment, except for
                                                                                                  the R.I. Rocket, which oddly enough didn't have a catalog number in
                                                                                                  its listing. I'll include original prices, if only for amusement
                                                                                                  here. You don't need to list them, but can if you want. I can't
                                                                                                  give you the road numbers but will just supply the color.

                                                                                                  Strombeck-Becker Mfg. Co., Moline , IL * 200 Fifth Ave., NY

                                                                                                  H0 Scale Models:

                                                                                                  1937 Rock Island Rocket: Set - A-unit & 3 cars ($1.79)

                                                                                                  R-100 H0 Freight Train: Set - Mikado engine & tender, 3 freight cars
                                                                                                  (Pacemaker box, Shell tank and PFE reefer) and NYC Caboose. ($2.79)

                                                                                                  R-1 Locomotice & Tender - Mikado ($1.19)

                                                                                                  R-2 N.Y.C. Caboose, Red (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-10 N.Y.C. Pacemaker Box Car, Red & Grey (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-11 B&O Sentinel Box Car, Silver & Blue (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-12 M.K.T. "KATY" Box Car, Yellow (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-21 SP-UP Pacific Fruit Express Refrigerator, Orange (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-22 A.T.S.F. "Chief" Refrigerator, Orange (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-23 Illinois Central Refrigerator, Yellow (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-31 Shell Chemical Tank Car, Yellow (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-32 Hercules Powder Tank Car (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-33 Heinz Vinegar Tank Car, Yellow (40 cents)

                                                                                                  R-41 Chesapeake & Ohio Hopper Car, Black (40 cents)

                                                                                                  Historic - 0 Scale Models:

                                                                                                  1831-C DeWitt Clinton Engine & Tender (59 cents)

                                                                                                  1831-GT DeWitt Clinton Set: Engine & Tender and 2 Coaches ($1.19)

                                                                                                  R-131 DeWitt Clinton Set: Two Coaches (59 cents)

                                                                                                  1837-C Wm. Galloway Engine & Tender (59 cents)

                                                                                                  1837-BT Wm. Galloway Set: Engine & Tender and 2 Freight Cars ($1.19)

                                                                                                  R-137 Wm. Galloway Set: Two Freight Cars (59 cents)

                                                                                                  1848-C C&NW Pioneer" Engine & Tender (79 cents)

                                                                                                  1848-NT C&NW "Pioneer" Set: Engine & Tender and 1 Passenger Car (1.39)

                                                                                                  R-148 C&NW "Pioneer": One Coach (69 cents)

                                                                                                  Don't recall the color of the Hercules Poeder tank, it could be
                                                                                                  either black or red. Maybe someone else might know. Ray Wetzel

                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8784 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 2/19/2009
                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
                                                                                                  Jim Heckard wrote:
                                                                                                  > Hi Matt,
                                                                                                  > For the most part the New One zamac cast steam engines sold under
                                                                                                  > the Aristo Craft name by Polk's Hobby didn't have a real lot of "zinc
                                                                                                  > pest" problems except for side frames on the tender trucks (although a
                                                                                                  > lot of that could have been to delicate of a design). The exception
                                                                                                  > was the tenders for the 4-4-2 SP Atlantic type. (This engine was sold
                                                                                                  > under both the Aristo Craft and HOTCO name) Yet the New One zamac cast
                                                                                                  > steam engines that were sold under the HOTCO (HO Train Company) by GHC
                                                                                                  > (General Hobbies Corporation of Philadelphia) did. The worst seemed
                                                                                                  > to be the CNJ 4-6-0 Camelback and the above SP type Atlantic. The
                                                                                                  > "normal" 4-6-0 and the little 0-4-0 sold by HOTCO / GHC were not to bad.
                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                  > Jim H

                                                                                                  Jim,
                                                                                                  do you refer to the SP Atlantic that was done by Rivarossi? Or was there
                                                                                                  another one, from New One? The New One/ Aristo C&NW Atlantic usually
                                                                                                  seems to have the zink pest problem too... the one I have had the cab
                                                                                                  reduced to fragments, fortunately all pieces were present and I have
                                                                                                  reassembled them with ACC.

                                                                                                  Rivarossi also had the zink pest problem with their IHB 0-8-0 models...
                                                                                                  the tender floor that was formed to hold the motor/ reduction gear
                                                                                                  assembly desintegrated usually. I unpacked mine after thirty years
                                                                                                  recently, what a mess!

                                                                                                  Gerold
                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8785 From: Riverboy Date: 2/19/2009
                                                                                                  Subject: Need Parts For An Athearn Metal RDC & Mantual Metal Reefer
                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                    Hi Group ,
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    I need a couple of parts if anyone would have any available .
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    I need one sideframe and screw for an Athearn metal RDC . Please see the attached photo to see exactly what is missing .
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    I also need the roofwalk to a metal Mantua woodside " Baby Ruth " reefer .
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    If anyone has either or both of the parts I need , please contact me offlist .
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    Thanks .
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                    Tod ( Riverboy )
                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8786 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/19/2009
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
                                                                                                    Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                           Small correction for clarification purpose. My Email was concerning the METAL body 4-4-2 Atlantic made by New One and sold by both Aristo Craft/Polk and HOTCO/GHC that was noted for zinc pest. This had a number of railroad names on it like C&NW, B&O, etc.
                                                                                                         In my Email I wrote SP Atlantic type which would  lead one to the early Rivarossi PLASTIC (bakelite) 4-4-2. I should NOT have written SP. I regret if that caused any confusion. Good eye Gerold.
                                                                                                         You are right that the early tender driven Rivarossi which was a 2-8-0 (plastic boiler and cab) had problems with the metal tender floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim H
                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 3:10 PM
                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain

                                                                                                    Jim Heckard wrote:
                                                                                                    > Hi Matt,
                                                                                                    > For the most part the New One zamac cast steam engines sold under
                                                                                                    > the Aristo Craft name by Polk's Hobby didn't have a real lot of "zinc
                                                                                                    > pest" problems except for side frames on the tender trucks (although a
                                                                                                    > lot of that could have been to delicate of a design). The exception
                                                                                                    > was the tenders for the 4-4-2 SP Atlantic type. (This engine was sold
                                                                                                    > under both the Aristo Craft and HOTCO name) Yet the New One zamac cast
                                                                                                    > steam engines that were sold under the HOTCO (HO Train Company) by GHC
                                                                                                    > (General Hobbies Corporation of Philadelphia) did. The worst seemed
                                                                                                    > to be the CNJ 4-6-0 Camelback and the above SP type Atlantic. The
                                                                                                    > "normal" 4-6-0 and the little 0-4-0 sold by HOTCO / GHC were not to bad.
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > Jim H

                                                                                                    Jim,
                                                                                                    do you refer to the SP Atlantic that was done by Rivarossi? Or was there
                                                                                                    another one, from New One? The New One/ Aristo C&NW Atlantic usually
                                                                                                    seems to have the zink pest problem too... the one I have had the cab
                                                                                                    reduced to fragments, fortunately all pieces were present and I have
                                                                                                    reassembled them with ACC.

                                                                                                    Rivarossi also had the zink pest problem with their IHB 0-8-0 models...
                                                                                                    the tender floor that was formed to hold the motor/ reduction gear
                                                                                                    assembly desintegrated usually. I unpacked mine after thirty years
                                                                                                    recently, what a mess!

                                                                                                    Gerold
                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8787 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/19/2009
                                                                                                    Subject: Rivarossi 4-4-2 vs New One 4-4-2
                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                          I'm sending these two pictures to help explain a little discussion that went on with my good friend Gerold E, from across the pond. It concerned a possibly bit of confusion I may have caused. These pictures might help those members better understand what we were talking about.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                The first picture is a Rivarossi 4-4-2 Atlantic. It was made roughly around 1952-1955. It was sold by Polk's Hobby and listed in his catalogs. This engine was produced earlier then Rivarossi American style engines that were sold under the AHM/Rivarossi name. These started to appear around 1966 in places like Woolworth's and other so called 5&10 cent stores.
                                                                                                          It is a "copy" of a Southern Pacific style Atlantic. It is made of a heavy plastic, both Engine and Tender, with Bakelite probably being the easiest name to describe it. It ran very good and had a motor / drive in the engine that was different from later AHM / RIvarossi steam.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                The second picture is of the all metal (cast zamac?) 4-4-2 Atlantic that was made by New One in Japan and sold by both Polk Hobbies under his Aristo Craft name and by HOTCO / General Hobbies Corporation of Philadelphia which later became known as AHM. This engine had a lot of cracking and disintegrating (what I call zinc pest). This engine made roughly around 1958-1960. It had many railroad names printed on the tender. Like a number of New One engines not the best of runners.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                Hope this will help to distinguish two entirely different engines by two entirely different companies. Any one feeling I made a mistake let me know. Not the best at typing or proof reading
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8788 From: Willard Seehorn Date: 2/19/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: OT not so vintage buildings
                                                                                                      I have a couple of buildings I'm trying to identify. They are laser cut, so
                                                                                                      not that old, but I figure the wealth of knowledge in this group can help me.

                                                                                                      They are Model Railways (a division of Model Expo, Inc.) Classic Structures.

                                                                                                      Model Expo is still in business, as tools & ship models. The NMRA shows
                                                                                                      them as a train/railroad related manufacturer, but the link takes you to
                                                                                                      the current ship oriented web page.

                                                                                                      The kits are

                                                                                                      #1004, Yardmaster's Office Kit (with a Model Expo, Inc., Hollywood FL 33022
                                                                                                      tag line)
                                                                                                      #1003 (I think) Double hand car shed kit (with a Model Expo, Inc., Mt.
                                                                                                      Poccono, Pa 18344 tag line). This appears to be the current address for the
                                                                                                      company.

                                                                                                      Can anyone tell me anything about them? When made, value, quality &c?

                                                                                                      TIA

                                                                                                      Willard
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8789 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/19/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain

                                                                                                      Jim,

                                                                                                      Photos added, I have one of these and a 4-6-0.  I should give them a try on the layout and see what they do.  You layout shots are looking good.  Glad you are doing this.

                                                                                                      Take care,

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard
                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:25 AM
                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                      Cc: Jim Waterman
                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Aristo Craft/New One ountain

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                I just sent these pictures to a 96 year old gentleman from Atlanta Georgia who wanted to see this engine. Since they are still loaded in my computer, and before I delete, I thought I would pass this on.

                                                                                                           This 4-8-2 zamac Mountain was sold by Polk's Hobbies under the Aristo Craft name. It was made in Japan by New One. It runs fairly nice, is very heavy and has a pretty nice valve gear set up for a metal engine made by New One. I have 17 different New One engines that were made for Polk and HOTCO (HO Train Co/ General Hobbies Co.). A FEW were sold by both.

                                                                                                           Thought some might like to see this. Chuck H, PLEASE enter into the album.

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8790 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/19/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
                                                                                                             Chuck,
                                                                                                                Thanks for adding the pictures. To many people including a friend, Jim Waterman, say they can't get the pictures. I don't mind sending a cc to some people but I would have to do it for 8.
                                                                                                               I'm not sure building the platform was right. I started out just wanting a circle mounted on a board. Then I couldn't find a place to hide it when not in use.  Then it was better to have a 4x8 oval. That worked out nice just behind my work bench. Then I had a lot of brand new Atlas brass track and decided to use it. To make something out of it I needed a larger platform. Then I wanted to raise and cross lower track all with the idea of having it done up to that point and done right. I will be adding the 3rd 4x8 this weekend and will be completing the basic track plan. I will have switches in the main line to expand for passenger service and station and a rail yard.
                                                                                                                While I might not get that far I do intend to ballast the track and create some mountains. I have to start looking where to get ballast. I also have to find if Hydrocal available and how to get it. I like to work with Hydrocal especially cutting and staining it to look like rock. Definitely NO STYROFOAM.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Jim
                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 8:49 PM
                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Aristo Craft/New One ountain

                                                                                                      Jim,

                                                                                                      Photos added, I have one of these and a 4-6-0.  I should give them a try on the layout and see what they do.  You layout shots are looking good.  Glad you are doing this.

                                                                                                      Take care,

                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

                                                                                                      From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard
                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:25 AM
                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                      Cc: Jim Waterman
                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Aristo Craft/New One ountain

                                                                                                                I just sent these pictures to a 96 year old gentleman from Atlanta Georgia who wanted to see this engine. Since they are still loaded in my computer, and before I delete, I thought I would pass this on.

                                                                                                           This 4-8-2 zamac Mountain was sold by Polk's Hobbies under the Aristo Craft name. It was made in Japan by New One. It runs fairly nice, is very heavy and has a pretty nice valve gear set up for a metal engine made by New One. I have 17 different New One engines that were made for Polk and HOTCO (HO Train Co/ General Hobbies Co.). A FEW were sold by both.

                                                                                                           Thought some might like to see this. Chuck H, PLEASE enter into the album.

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8791 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/19/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Strombecker Rock Island TA ROCKET
                                                                                                      Yes, the Comet cars were 35 cents- I have an old Comet box on display in my living room (Which is decorated with transport artifacts and vintage model boxes and vintage instruction sets framed on the wall.)

                                                                                                      The Comet boxcars and reefers I have are pretty nice, compared to Strombecker. I even had the great fortune to get one unassembled. Of course, I assembled it and it turned out nicely.

                                                                                                      Much more work went into the Comets than Strombecker cars, though the Strombecker tankcar (Which I have assembled the Shell version) is somewhat difficult here and there.

                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                      --- On Wed, 2/18/09, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                      From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Strombecker Rock Island TA ROCKET
                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                      Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 9:35 AM

                                                                                                      Seems like most of us old enough to remember these Strombecker models
                                                                                                      had loads of fun with them, either as a floor toy or as an addition
                                                                                                      to a train layout. I've never taken the opportunity to measure them,
                                                                                                      and take your word for them not being to scale if it's obvious when
                                                                                                      placed along side an NPP model, but FWIW -- curiously, StromBecKer
                                                                                                      not only advertised their models as "Railroad Scale Models -- H0
                                                                                                      Gauge," but also specifically stated "Accurately scaled 3 1/2 m.m. to
                                                                                                      1 ft."

                                                                                                      Thought you might find this interesting. Looks like they must have
                                                                                                      been working with a "short ruler." Perhaps it got trimmed off a bit
                                                                                                      while doing their woodworking (LOL). In any case, they helped
                                                                                                      introduce the kids to the H0 hobby. As I recall though, Comet
                                                                                                      Models' freight car kits were a nickle less, and were fairly
                                                                                                      presentable for those times as a model for the layout. I think their
                                                                                                      price of 35 cents was part of the bold printing on their box tops.
                                                                                                      Ray Wetzel

                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Glenn Joesten inquires about this venerable wood kit model, very
                                                                                                      > neatly fabricated from milled white or sugar pine. Like many other
                                                                                                      > model products of this Moline, IL company, this very low priced
                                                                                                      model
                                                                                                      > was attractive because Strombecker went to considerable lengths
                                                                                                      to
                                                                                                      > make their models accurately proportional in most major dimensions
                                                                                                      and
                                                                                                      > contours, even though with its wood wheels, it was in fact designed
                                                                                                      as
                                                                                                      > a floor toy. The paper overlays for the locomotive details and the
                                                                                                      > passenger car windows were also very neatly and accurately done.
                                                                                                      > IMHO, Strombecker did a much better job of replicating "the real
                                                                                                      > thing" with these floor toys than many contemporary HO "scale"
                                                                                                      > manufacturers were in fact doing at the same time.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > In the late '40s and '50s, it was relatively popular for HO gauge
                                                                                                      > modelers to favor converting these Rocket models from floor toys
                                                                                                      to
                                                                                                      > actual functioning trains on the track (perusing old MRs of the
                                                                                                      period
                                                                                                      > discloses quite a few photos of these trains on various layouts,
                                                                                                      > including one that sticks in my mind, a longer train pulled by two
                                                                                                      of
                                                                                                      > the TA locomotives back to back). Converting these to HO gauge
                                                                                                      > functional use posed a number of challenges, however:
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > 1) The model was made to 1/8", not 3.5mm/ft. scale (if one places
                                                                                                      the
                                                                                                      > Strombecker model next to the NPP model, this difference in scale
                                                                                                      > becomes very obvious).
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > 2) The attractive sleekness of the streamlined cars depended upon
                                                                                                      > keeping intact the seamless low skirting along the lower margins
                                                                                                      of
                                                                                                      > the car sides. This skirting limited the mounting of functioning
                                                                                                      > trucks because they would not nestle between the skirts, and if
                                                                                                      they
                                                                                                      > did, they would not swivel enough to allow the car to go around
                                                                                                      any
                                                                                                      > curves.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > 3) The locomotive was made up of two solid blocks of milled wood.
                                                                                                      A
                                                                                                      > substantial "hollow" had to be milled out for the installation of
                                                                                                      any
                                                                                                      > power truck, and if if that was successful, the locomotive weight
                                                                                                      was
                                                                                                      > still so light as to hardly be able to drag itself along, much less
                                                                                                      a
                                                                                                      > train. The locomotive also had the same skirt issues as the cars.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > 4) The appearance of the finished product depended to a great
                                                                                                      degree
                                                                                                      > on how carefully and completely the wood surfaces were in fact
                                                                                                      filled,
                                                                                                      > sanded, and painted. This was not only an esthetic issue, the
                                                                                                      cemented
                                                                                                      > paper overlays also depended upon an underlying smooth surface for
                                                                                                      any
                                                                                                      > significant longevity.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > As a result, too many surviving Strombecker ROCKET models are
                                                                                                      flawed by:
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > 1) The skirts have been cut away for over-wide, over sized trucks,
                                                                                                      > most of which have been also mounted to elevate the cars, In this
                                                                                                      > respect, the lovely flowing proportions common to these car models
                                                                                                      > (and their prototypes) are to a large degree compromised, and the
                                                                                                      cars
                                                                                                      > and locomotives appear to be in flood pants.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > 2) Wood preparation and paint work is poor, and as a side result,
                                                                                                      the
                                                                                                      > paper overlays are peeling, and/or are dog-eared.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > With a fresh kit, all of these fundamental issues (save changing
                                                                                                      > scale!) can be successfully addressed by the skillful modeler, of
                                                                                                      > course (now, as then), and they have been. If so, the resulting
                                                                                                      model
                                                                                                      > can still be a thoroughly attractive "Classic" example of past
                                                                                                      fine
                                                                                                      > modeling on any contemporary layout. Options will likely be quite
                                                                                                      > limited with kits either partially or completely finished,
                                                                                                      however.
                                                                                                      > The Casco glue that was included in the kit can be undone by
                                                                                                      soaking
                                                                                                      > in water, but this will likely also destroy the paper overlay in
                                                                                                      the
                                                                                                      > process.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Denny
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                      > Sacramento
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8792 From: prr_homewood_jct Date: 2/19/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: ahm chemical container car design ?
                                                                                                      hello can anyone tell me why the car sides had v shaped openings in the
                                                                                                      design , was this for loading , unloading ? seems this would have been
                                                                                                      done thru the open top , or can anyone show me a picture of the
                                                                                                      containers these cars would carry ?
                                                                                                      thanks, James
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8793 From: rrdeffinger@msn.com Date: 2/19/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Rivarossi 4-4-2 vs New One 4-4-2
                                                                                                      I still have the New One 4-4-2 with it's box that I bought at a Woolworth and it has always ran great!  Never had a problem with it's operation.
                                                                                                      The engine has never cracked but the tender frame has cracked in half but I have made a new one for it. I am also in the process of re-detailing the engine.
                                                                                                      Mine was painted for the B&O. How many other road names did it come in?  The PRR looks like it might have been repainted, mine was never that shiny.  MY tender trucks have brass wheels, the picture doesn't look like brass.
                                                                                                      It was one of my first "kitbash" engines: I cut off the headlight and added one higher up, like the B&O had.
                                                                                                      Bob D.

                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                      CC: watermaj@...
                                                                                                      From: jimheck@...
                                                                                                      Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:41:45 -0500
                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 4-4-2 vs New One 4-4-2

                                                                                                          I'm sending these two pictures to help explain a little discussion that went on with my good friend Gerold E, from across the pond. It concerned a possibly bit of confusion I may have caused. These pictures might help those members better understand what we were talking about.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                The first picture is a Rivarossi 4-4-2 Atlantic. It was made roughly around 1952-1955. It was sold by Polk's Hobby and listed in his catalogs. This engine was produced earlier then Rivarossi American style engines that were sold under the AHM/Rivarossi name. These started to appear around 1966 in places like Woolworth's and other so called 5&10 cent stores.
                                                                                                          It is a "copy" of a Southern Pacific style Atlantic. It is made of a heavy plastic, both Engine and Tender, with Bakelite probably being the easiest name to describe it. It ran very good and had a motor / drive in the engine that was different from later AHM / RIvarossi steam.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                The second picture is of the all metal (cast zamac?) 4-4-2 Atlantic that was made by New One in Japan and sold by both Polk Hobbies under his Aristo Craft name and by HOTCO / General Hobbies Corporation of Philadelphia which later became known as AHM. This engine had a lot of cracking and disintegrating (what I call zinc pest). This engine made roughly around 1958-1960. It had many railroad names printed on the tender. Like a number of New One engines not the best of runners.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                Hope this will help to distinguish two entirely different engines by two entirely different companies. Any one feeling I made a mistake let me know. Not the best at typing or proof reading
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       



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                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8794 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/20/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Rivarossi 4-4-2 vs New One 4-4-2
                                                                                                         I don't know how many different road names this engine , New One 4-4-2 had. You are right that the picture I sent of a Pennsylvania engine is repainted. This had a tender cracked in half and repaired. The tender trucks are brass. The camera (flash) makes it look different.
                                                                                                       I have a question for you since you have the box. Although you bought it at a Woolworth's what was the name on the box, HO Train Company / General Hobbies Corporation or Aristo Craft (One of Polks trade names ?
                                                                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:34 AM
                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 4-4-2 vs New One 4-4-2

                                                                                                      I still have the New One 4-4-2 with it's box that I bought at a Woolworth and it has always ran great!  Never had a problem with it's operation.
                                                                                                      The engine has never cracked but the tender frame has cracked in half but I have made a new one for it. I am also in the process of re-detailing the engine.
                                                                                                      Mine was painted for the B&O. How many other road names did it come in?  The PRR looks like it might have been repainted, mine was never that shiny.  MY tender trucks have brass wheels, the picture doesn't look like brass.
                                                                                                      It was one of my first "kitbash" engines: I cut off the headlight and added one higher up, like the B&O had.
                                                                                                      Bob D.

                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                      CC: watermaj@comcast. net
                                                                                                      From: jimheck@losch. net
                                                                                                      Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:41:45 -0500
                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 4-4-2 vs New One 4-4-2

                                                                                                          I'm sending these two pictures to help explain a little discussion that went on with my good friend Gerold E, from across the pond. It concerned a possibly bit of confusion I may have caused. These pictures might help those members better understand what we were talking about.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                The first picture is a Rivarossi 4-4-2 Atlantic. It was made roughly around 1952-1955. It was sold by Polk's Hobby and listed in his catalogs. This engine was produced earlier then Rivarossi American style engines that were sold under the AHM/Rivarossi name. These started to appear around 1966 in places like Woolworth's and other so called 5&10 cent stores.
                                                                                                          It is a "copy" of a Southern Pacific style Atlantic. It is made of a heavy plastic, both Engine and Tender, with Bakelite probably being the easiest name to describe it. It ran very good and had a motor / drive in the engine that was different from later AHM / RIvarossi steam.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                The second picture is of the all metal (cast zamac?) 4-4-2 Atlantic that was made by New One in Japan and sold by both Polk Hobbies under his Aristo Craft name and by HOTCO / General Hobbies Corporation of Philadelphia which later became known as AHM. This engine had a lot of cracking and disintegrating (what I call zinc pest). This engine made roughly around 1958-1960. It had many railroad names printed on the tender. Like a number of New One engines not the best of runners.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                Hope this will help to distinguish two entirely different engines by two entirely different companies. Any one feeling I made a mistake let me know. Not the best at typing or proof reading
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       



                                                                                                      Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it out.

                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8795 From: John Hagen Date: 2/20/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Viewing attachments (was Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain)
                                                                                                      Jim and group et al,

                                                                                                      Regarding viewing attachments (mainly photos) there is nothing the
                                                                                                      attachmenter can do to make them visible to the attachmentee.

                                                                                                      The group member MUST have his email option as "individual emails" for
                                                                                                      them to be visible. The reason of this has been told many times.

                                                                                                      The problem that always comes up is the volume of emails anyone who
                                                                                                      subscribes to a few groups can get in one day. That includes me. This
                                                                                                      is how I handle that situation.

                                                                                                      I use Outlook for email and I can explain how I use Outlooks feature to
                                                                                                      sort my emails. Now I am pretty certain that most any email program
                                                                                                      will have similar options available. If not, you need a more
                                                                                                      comprehensive program. I set individual folders for each group, or, it
                                                                                                      some instances, one folder for groups of similar subject matter. I have
                                                                                                      one truck modeling folder for three groups. The first time an email
                                                                                                      hits my in-box from a group I have a folder for, I highlight that email
                                                                                                      and right click to bring up the menu. I select "Create Rule" which gets
                                                                                                      me into the rule menu. From there it is just a matter of following the
                                                                                                      prompts so that all future emails from that group will automatically be
                                                                                                      sent to the designated folder.

                                                                                                      Well OK, but that doesn't do anything to lessen the total volume of
                                                                                                      mail. No but the next step does. The thing to remember is that you are
                                                                                                      trying to see the attachments only. All the other posts are still in
                                                                                                      the groups site so need not be sent to your in-box. After setting the
                                                                                                      basic routing rule, I go to the advanced menu where I select "delete
                                                                                                      email" and then go to the exception menu and select "except if it
                                                                                                      contains an attachment"

                                                                                                      Now all the emails that I receive from the designated group are deleted
                                                                                                      except those that have a photo or whatever attached. So i get to view
                                                                                                      all the photos I wouldn't see any but don't have to read all the other
                                                                                                      posts that I can read anytime I want simply by going to that groups
                                                                                                      site.

                                                                                                      BTW, for this group I do have the emails forwarded to its own folder
                                                                                                      but keep all of them. I make my determination based on the subject
                                                                                                      matter involved and the kind of messages the group tends to get posted.
                                                                                                      This is one of the best by far.

                                                                                                      Don you have set up a really good group here. Thank you.

                                                                                                      John Hagen
                                                                                                      Saint Francis (Formerly Town of Lake), WI

                                                                                                      ps, the reference to the Town of Lake (of which the area not annexed by
                                                                                                      the City of Milwaukee became Saint Francis) is in deference to Don's
                                                                                                      fondness of the Milwaukee Road and the Lake Tower.


                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Chuck,
                                                                                                      > Thanks for adding the pictures. To many people including a
                                                                                                      friend, Jim Waterman, say they can't get the pictures. I don't mind
                                                                                                      sending a cc to some people but I would have to do it for 8.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      Jim
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8796 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/20/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Viewing attachments (was Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain)
                                                                                                                John,                                                                                                                                                                               Excellent explanation. I knew it had to do with Email options but couldn't help any one asking. I'm going to print this out to have the explanation on hand for the next time.
                                                                                                                                              THANKS     Jim H
                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                      From: John Hagen
                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 11:08 AM
                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Viewing attachments (was Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain)

                                                                                                      Jim and group et al,

                                                                                                      Regarding viewing attachments (mainly photos) there is nothing the
                                                                                                      attachmenter can do to make them visible to the attachmentee.

                                                                                                      The group member MUST have his email option as "individual emails" for
                                                                                                      them to be visible. The reason of this has been told many times.

                                                                                                      The problem that always comes up is the volume of emails anyone who
                                                                                                      subscribes to a few groups can get in one day. That includes me. This
                                                                                                      is how I handle that situation.

                                                                                                      I use Outlook for email and I can explain how I use Outlooks feature to
                                                                                                      sort my emails. Now I am pretty certain that most any email program
                                                                                                      will have similar options available. If not, you need a more
                                                                                                      comprehensive program. I set individual folders for each group, or, it
                                                                                                      some instances, one folder for groups of similar subject matter. I have
                                                                                                      one truck modeling folder for three groups. The first time an email
                                                                                                      hits my in-box from a group I have a folder for, I highlight that email
                                                                                                      and right click to bring up the menu. I select "Create Rule" which gets
                                                                                                      me into the rule menu. From there it is just a matter of following the
                                                                                                      prompts so that all future emails from that group will automatically be
                                                                                                      sent to the designated folder.

                                                                                                      Well OK, but that doesn't do anything to lessen the total volume of
                                                                                                      mail. No but the next step does. The thing to remember is that you are
                                                                                                      trying to see the attachments only. All the other posts are still in
                                                                                                      the groups site so need not be sent to your in-box. After setting the
                                                                                                      basic routing rule, I go to the advanced menu where I select "delete
                                                                                                      email" and then go to the exception menu and select "except if it
                                                                                                      contains an attachment"

                                                                                                      Now all the emails that I receive from the designated group are deleted
                                                                                                      except those that have a photo or whatever attached. So i get to view
                                                                                                      all the photos I wouldn't see any but don't have to read all the other
                                                                                                      posts that I can read anytime I want simply by going to that groups
                                                                                                      site.

                                                                                                      BTW, for this group I do have the emails forwarded to its own folder
                                                                                                      but keep all of them. I make my determination based on the subject
                                                                                                      matter involved and the kind of messages the group tends to get posted.
                                                                                                      This is one of the best by far.

                                                                                                      Don you have set up a really good group here. Thank you.

                                                                                                      John Hagen
                                                                                                      Saint Francis (Formerly Town of Lake), WI

                                                                                                      ps, the reference to the Town of Lake (of which the area not annexed by
                                                                                                      the City of Milwaukee became Saint Francis) is in deference to Don's
                                                                                                      fondness of the Milwaukee Road and the Lake Tower.

                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Chuck,
                                                                                                      > Thanks for adding the pictures. To many people including a
                                                                                                      friend, Jim Waterman, say they can't get the pictures. I don't mind
                                                                                                      sending a cc to some people but I would have to do it for 8.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      Jim

                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8797 From: John Hagen Date: 2/20/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Test Circle (was Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain)
                                                                                                      Jim,

                                                                                                      It appears you have been bitten by the model railroading bug in
                                                                                                      addition to the model train collecting bug.

                                                                                                      Ah, well.

                                                                                                      I applaud your refusal to use Styrofoam on your "test circle", Easy
                                                                                                      though it may be, I see so much of the stuff in an unprotected state
                                                                                                      that I find it downright scary.

                                                                                                      Unprotected insulation foam is a serious source of thick, black,
                                                                                                      choking smaoke in a fire situation. This is well known and documented
                                                                                                      but I see it used and recommended all the time. If it is put on a
                                                                                                      layout and immediately covered, on ALL sides, well and good. But in
                                                                                                      the normal occurrence of events, this stuff lays uncovered for weeks,
                                                                                                      months or even years.

                                                                                                      John Hagen
                                                                                                      St Francis, Lake and all that

                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > I'm not sure building the platform was right. I started
                                                                                                      out just wanting a circle mounted on a board. Then I couldn't find a
                                                                                                      place to hide it when not in use. Then it was better to have a 4x8
                                                                                                      oval. That worked out nice just behind my work bench. Then I had a
                                                                                                      lot of brand new Atlas brass track and decided to use it. To make
                                                                                                      something out of it I needed a larger platform. Then I wanted to
                                                                                                      raise and cross lower track all with the idea of having it done up to
                                                                                                      that point and done right. I will be adding the 3rd 4x8 this weekend
                                                                                                      and will be completing the basic track plan. I will have switches in
                                                                                                      the main line to expand for passenger service and station and a rail
                                                                                                      yard.
                                                                                                      > While I might not get that far I do intend to ballast the
                                                                                                      track and create some mountains. I have to start looking where to get
                                                                                                      ballast. I also have to find if Hydrocal available and how to get it.
                                                                                                      I like to work with Hydrocal especially cutting and staining it to
                                                                                                      look like rock. Definitely NO STYROFOAM.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      Jim
                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                      > From: Chuck Higdon
                                                                                                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                      > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 8:49 PM
                                                                                                      > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Aristo Craft/New One ountain
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Jim,
                                                                                                      > Photos added, I have one of these and a 4-6-0. I should give
                                                                                                      them a try on the layout and see what they do. You layout shots are
                                                                                                      looking good. Glad you are doing this.
                                                                                                      > Take care,
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                      http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                      ----------
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                      [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard
                                                                                                      > Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 11:25 AM
                                                                                                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                      > Cc: Jim Waterman
                                                                                                      > Subject: [vintageHO] Aristo Craft/New One ountain
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > I just sent these pictures to a 96 year old gentleman
                                                                                                      from Atlanta Georgia who wanted to see this engine. Since they are
                                                                                                      still loaded in my computer, and before I delete, I thought I would
                                                                                                      pass this on.
                                                                                                      > This 4-8-2 zamac Mountain was sold by Polk's Hobbies under
                                                                                                      the Aristo Craft name. It was made in Japan by New One. It runs
                                                                                                      fairly nice, is very heavy and has a pretty nice valve gear set up
                                                                                                      for a metal engine made by New One. I have 17 different New One
                                                                                                      engines that were made for Polk and HOTCO (HO Train Co/ General
                                                                                                      Hobbies Co.). A FEW were sold by both.
                                                                                                      > Thought some might like to see this. Chuck H, PLEASE enter
                                                                                                      into the album.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8798 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 2/20/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One ountain
                                                                                                      Steve,

                                                                                                      You bring up a point that I have heard about New One models -- when
                                                                                                      they first were making us models they made them between 1:76 and 1:80
                                                                                                      instead of the correct 1:87. I would guess that the Frisco Mike is
                                                                                                      1:80 in proportion. I have measured the Uncle Tom against the drawings
                                                                                                      and it appears to be about 1:76 or 1:72. The Japanese, because their
                                                                                                      own prototype railroads were narrow gauge (3'-6") built most of their
                                                                                                      domestic models in 1:80 and probably did the same to some of our
                                                                                                      models. The proportions are all there, but the overall scale seems to
                                                                                                      be too large. On the other hand, the C&NW 4-4-2 (usually found in B&O
                                                                                                      lettering!) is dead on for true HO.

                                                                                                      Because I like to collect the New One models I tend to not be too
                                                                                                      concerned over the scale, but your comments are wise words for someone
                                                                                                      who is planning to create a vintage layout.

                                                                                                      Matt Coleman


                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "railwaymodeler"
                                                                                                      <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > I also have the Frisco 'Mike', and like yours, Matt, mine is in superb
                                                                                                      > condition.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > One thing I wonder- were there mikados that big? It is significantly
                                                                                                      > larger than a Mantua mikado. Put it this way- I use my Aristo Craft
                                                                                                      > mikado to pull OO scale Scale-Craft passenger cars (fitted onto HO
                                                                                                      > trucks, of course), and they all look proportionally 'right' together.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Not that I am complaining- I have a Scale-Craft baggage car, coach,
                                                                                                      > and observation car (Rebuilt from a coach with a damaged vestibule),
                                                                                                      > and until I got the Aristo Craft mikado, I was wondering what I would
                                                                                                      > use to pull this train.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8799 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 2/20/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One Mikes
                                                                                                      Jim,

                                                                                                      I don't have any official records, all I have is the photos that
                                                                                                      accompany the advertisements in MR and RMC over the years and the
                                                                                                      catalog that used to be on the Vintage HO site but now I can't find.
                                                                                                      Since I get these email's in digest form I didn't get the photos, but
                                                                                                      am working from memory (I am overseas for a couple of months.)

                                                                                                      From what I can tell, the Frisco Mike first came with the four-wheel
                                                                                                      tender with the somewhat overly-arched Bettendorf trucks even though
                                                                                                      the advertising photos show the six wheel version. I have seen a
                                                                                                      catalog cut with what appears to be the same tender that came behind
                                                                                                      the 4-8-2, but having only seen photos, I can't confirm that. I
                                                                                                      believe that this is the version with the six-wheeled trucks. I have
                                                                                                      only seen three road names on the Mikado -- Frisco, Santa Fe, and
                                                                                                      Union Pacific. I suspect that the UP and AT&SF versions were custom
                                                                                                      decaled but that is only a guess.

                                                                                                      The tender decals seem to be done on a batch basis. What we don't
                                                                                                      know, but surmise, is that these were factory painted and lettered but
                                                                                                      in small batches (hence the wide variations in numbers,) but again, I
                                                                                                      am guessing based on advertisements and two photos that were in RMC
                                                                                                      and MR photo sections in the early 60s. Both had layout photos with
                                                                                                      what appears to be the Frisco Mike in the background.

                                                                                                      I hope someone who has more knowledge on this can help.

                                                                                                      Matt Coleman





                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Matt, Steve, All,
                                                                                                      > Since there has been discussion going on concerning Aristo
                                                                                                      Craft Mikados made by New One Japan I sent these pictures from my
                                                                                                      collection so maybe you can help answer some Questions.
                                                                                                      > Question No. 1 deals with two types of tenders available
                                                                                                      with the Frisco Mikado. You will see one has a shorter tender with 2
                                                                                                      axle tender trucks and the other has a longer tender with 3 axle
                                                                                                      tender trucks. Boxes used by Polk Hobbies and Aristo Craft Distinctive
                                                                                                      Miniature catalogs show the New One Frisco Mikado with the 3 axle
                                                                                                      tender. I am assuming that the 3 axle tender came first because it
                                                                                                      shows up in "advertising" I have. Does any one know for sure which was
                                                                                                      first and when / why the other 2 axle tender became available ???
                                                                                                      > Question 2 concerns the many different numbers that appear
                                                                                                      on the two tender types. I have seen this 4 digit gold number change
                                                                                                      on these Mikados (type of tender doesn't seem to matter) . I purposely
                                                                                                      check the numbers when this Frisco Mike comes up on Ebay just to see
                                                                                                      the different numbers available. It is odd to see a "massed" produced
                                                                                                      engine changing numbers. Even stared to think that each engine had a
                                                                                                      different number used like it was a production serial number for a
                                                                                                      limited amount of engines. That of course doesn't hold water. Also
                                                                                                      advertisements for the engine show a 3 digit number on the tender. I
                                                                                                      think it is 346. Does any one know the rhyme or reason behind these
                                                                                                      changing numbers ?
                                                                                                      > While it might not mean anything and is not a scientific
                                                                                                      study,I have yet to see either the Mikado or Mountain engines made for
                                                                                                      Aristo Craft by New One have a "zinc pest (cracking/crumbling) problem.
                                                                                                      > One final thought as to the size issue brought up by Steve.
                                                                                                      Could it be that this engine is"normal" HO size when compared to early
                                                                                                      HO that was actually undersized as to scale or could it be oversized
                                                                                                      like OO but able to run HO track ? I leave that up to the experts in
                                                                                                      those areas.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8800 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/20/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One Mikes
                                                                                                      Matt,
                                                                                                        
                                                                                                               All those catalogs you have are very useful. The part you have to be careful is that sometimes pictures are never followed by the item. Case in point would be the Aristo Craft / New One  Mason Bogie. A picture, actually a drawing, appears in Aristo Craft New One catalogs but no real HO engine has shown up. Another was an announcement by Lindberg of a new engine they were going to produce .It was a U boat engine (forget which type specific). They were at some train show and had the prototype to show. Even named the road names they were to letter the Diesel. There are many others
                                                                                                          My point is that catalogs, write ups in MR and RMC don't always come about. I personally like to have a real (HO) engine in my hand to verify they were produced for the public. Go to www.hoseeker.net and under Aristo Craft you will find  catalog of the New ones sold by Polk.
                                                                                                         I have to look close at my Aristo Craft / New One  Frisco Mikado and my Aristo Craft / New One Mountain to see if the 4 wheel tenders are the same.The 6 wheel Frisco tender I have not seen on others. Also I think the UP and AT&SF Mikado's were repainted. I have not seen any thing other then Frisco on the AC/NO Mikes.
                                                                                                        I like your idea as to why the number on the AC/NO Frico tenders keep changing when you mentioned on a batch basis. Good thought to follow up. In a way it makes sense because of a story relayed to me about Penn Line numbers. A large number of teenagers were used after school to help with cost. Some were assigned to lettering and numbering items. They got bored and started to change the numbers. Today it is very hard to say with a 100% certainty that this PL item only came in this number because there MIGHT be small amounts with different numbers
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Jim H.
                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 11:57 AM
                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Aristo Craft/New One Mikes

                                                                                                      Jim,

                                                                                                      I don't have any official records, all I have is the photos that
                                                                                                      accompany the advertisements in MR and RMC over the years and the
                                                                                                      catalog that used to be on the Vintage HO site but now I can't find.
                                                                                                      Since I get these email's in digest form I didn't get the photos, but
                                                                                                      am working from memory (I am overseas for a couple of months.)

                                                                                                      From what I can tell, the Frisco Mike first came with the four-wheel
                                                                                                      tender with the somewhat overly-arched Bettendorf trucks even though
                                                                                                      the advertising photos show the six wheel version. I have seen a
                                                                                                      catalog cut with what appears to be the same tender that came behind
                                                                                                      the 4-8-2, but having only seen photos, I can't confirm that. I
                                                                                                      believe that this is the version with the six-wheeled trucks. I have
                                                                                                      only seen three road names on the Mikado -- Frisco, Santa Fe, and
                                                                                                      Union Pacific. I suspect that the UP and AT&SF versions were custom
                                                                                                      decaled but that is only a guess.

                                                                                                      The tender decals seem to be done on a batch basis. What we don't
                                                                                                      know, but surmise, is that these were factory painted and lettered but
                                                                                                      in small batches (hence the wide variations in numbers,) but again, I
                                                                                                      am guessing based on advertisements and two photos that were in RMC
                                                                                                      and MR photo sections in the early 60s. Both had layout photos with
                                                                                                      what appears to be the Frisco Mike in the background.

                                                                                                      I hope someone who has more knowledge on this can help.

                                                                                                      Matt Coleman

                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Matt, Steve, All,
                                                                                                      > Since there has been discussion going on concerning Aristo
                                                                                                      Craft Mikados made by New One Japan I sent these pictures from my
                                                                                                      collection so maybe you can help answer some Questions.
                                                                                                      > Question No. 1 deals with two types of tenders available
                                                                                                      with the Frisco Mikado. You will see one has a shorter tender with 2
                                                                                                      axle tender trucks and the other has a longer tender with 3 axle
                                                                                                      tender trucks. Boxes used by Polk Hobbies and Aristo Craft Distinctive
                                                                                                      Miniature catalogs show the New One Frisco Mikado with the 3 axle
                                                                                                      tender. I am assuming that the 3 axle tender came first because it
                                                                                                      shows up in "advertising" I have. Does any one know for sure which was
                                                                                                      first and when / why the other 2 axle tender became available ???
                                                                                                      > Question 2 concerns the many different numbers that appear
                                                                                                      on the two tender types. I have seen this 4 digit gold number change
                                                                                                      on these Mikados (type of tender doesn't seem to matter) . I purposely
                                                                                                      check the numbers when this Frisco Mike comes up on Ebay just to see
                                                                                                      the different numbers available. It is odd to see a "massed" produced
                                                                                                      engine changing numbers. Even stared to think that each engine had a
                                                                                                      different number used like it was a production serial number for a
                                                                                                      limited amount of engines. That of course doesn't hold water. Also
                                                                                                      advertisements for the engine show a 3 digit number on the tender. I
                                                                                                      think it is 346. Does any one know the rhyme or reason behind these
                                                                                                      changing numbers ?
                                                                                                      > While it might not mean anything and is not a scientific
                                                                                                      study,I have yet to see either the Mikado or Mountain engines made for
                                                                                                      Aristo Craft by New One have a "zinc pest (cracking/crumbling ) problem.
                                                                                                      > One final thought as to the size issue brought up by Steve.
                                                                                                      Could it be that this engine is"normal" HO size when compared to early
                                                                                                      HO that was actually undersized as to scale or could it be oversized
                                                                                                      like OO but able to run HO track ? I leave that up to the experts in
                                                                                                      those areas.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8801 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/20/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: switching to DSL
                                                                                                                 Tomorrow morning we are switching to DSL. We just received our external modem and filters for the phones (phones will ring even if computer being used). We will be contacting our internet provider in the morning, as per instructions, to make the change. Hopefully the switch will go easy but my luck with personal computers is terrible. So I want to let people know I could be off line and off site for a "while.
                                                                                                            Now don't everyone stand up, cheer and say thank goodness that I will be out of touch.
                                                                                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8802 From: Raymond Lorts Sr Date: 2/20/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Loco
                                                                                                      Hi Guy's; I just back  my loco 4-6-2 Pacfic type   from whisite stop trains(www.wsor.com)
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                      I had repair's .  I don't do it, I had a Stroke.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                    Ray L
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8803 From: rrdeffinger@msn.com Date: 2/20/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Rivarossi 4-4-2 vs New One 4-4-2
                                                                                                      The one I bought at Woolworth's has "HO Train Company" on the box. Every time we went to Woolworth's I would hide it so no one else would buy it until I could convience my mom to buy it for me!  It was $14.95 or $15.95.
                                                                                                      One of the tender trucks has cracked as well as the lead truck frame. I've have to replace the tender  trucks too.
                                                                                                      I think the connection from the engine to the tender  gave me the most trouble running it. If it was hard wired it would help, I think.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                      The worst one I've seen for the metal cracking is the 4-6-0 camelback. I bought one recently and the front of the frame fell apart and the whole front half of the boiler was really bad. The smoke stack, light, walkways as well as the top of the smokebox front all just fell apart with the slightest touch. Even the cylinders are cracked. I took all the rest of the detail off the front half and covered it with J-B WELD, a two part epoxy. It will make a good weight!  I'll have to cover it with a brass cover for the front  half and do something with the frame and cylinders.
                                                                                                      Bob D.
                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                      From: jimheck@...
                                                                                                      Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 07:59:21 -0500
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 4-4-2 vs New One 4-4-2

                                                                                                         I don't know how many different road names this engine , New One 4-4-2 had. You are right that the picture I sent of a Pennsylvania engine is repainted. This had a tender cracked in half and repaired. The tender trucks are brass. The camera (flash) makes it look different.
                                                                                                       I have a question for you since you have the box. Although you bought it at a Woolworth's what was the name on the box, HO Train Company / General Hobbies Corporation or Aristo Craft (One of Polks trade names ?
                                                                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:34 AM
                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 4-4-2 vs New One 4-4-2

                                                                                                      I still have the New One 4-4-2 with it's box that I bought at a Woolworth and it has always ran great!  Never had a problem with it's operation.
                                                                                                      The engine has never cracked but the tender frame has cracked in half but I have made a new one for it. I am also in the process of re-detailing the engine.
                                                                                                      Mine was painted for the B&O. How many other road names did it come in?  The PRR looks like it might have been repainted, mine was never that shiny.  MY tender trucks have brass wheels, the picture doesn't look like brass.
                                                                                                      It was one of my first "kitbash" engines: I cut off the headlight and added one higher up, like the B&O had.
                                                                                                      Bob D.

                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                      CC: watermaj@comcast. net
                                                                                                      From: jimheck@losch. net
                                                                                                      Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:41:45 -0500
                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 4-4-2 vs New One 4-4-2

                                                                                                          I'm sending these two pictures to help explain a little discussion that went on with my good friend Gerold E, from across the pond. It concerned a possibly bit of confusion I may have caused. These pictures might help those members better understand what we were talking about.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                The first picture is a Rivarossi 4-4-2 Atlantic. It was made roughly around 1952-1955. It was sold by Polk's Hobby and listed in his catalogs. This engine was produced earlier then Rivarossi American style engines that were sold under the AHM/Rivarossi name. These started to appear around 1966 in places like Woolworth's and other so called 5&10 cent stores.
                                                                                                          It is a "copy" of a Southern Pacific style Atlantic. It is made of a heavy plastic, both Engine and Tender, with Bakelite probably being the easiest name to describe it. It ran very good and had a motor / drive in the engine that was different from later AHM / RIvarossi steam.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                The second picture is of the all metal (cast zamac?) 4-4-2 Atlantic that was made by New One in Japan and sold by both Polk Hobbies under his Aristo Craft name and by HOTCO / General Hobbies Corporation of Philadelphia which later became known as AHM. This engine had a lot of cracking and disintegrating (what I call zinc pest). This engine made roughly around 1958-1960. It had many railroad names printed on the tender. Like a number of New One engines not the best of runners.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                Hope this will help to distinguish two entirely different engines by two entirely different companies. Any one feeling I made a mistake let me know. Not the best at typing or proof reading
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       




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                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8804 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: OT [vintageHO] switching to DSL
                                                                                                      Just hope it goes better than mine did! It was a hassle, had to convince
                                                                                                      Ameritech to come out and string a new line from the house to the pole, then
                                                                                                      had to have the security service come out and fix the alarm, forgot THAT
                                                                                                      needed a filter too!. Then the fooling around to get our mini LAN working
                                                                                                      in the house (Lexy's laptop is wireless, my PC is hard wired into the
                                                                                                      router), took about three weeks of fooling around but in the end it was
                                                                                                      worth it.

                                                                                                      Don



                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                      From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 7:11 PM
                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] switching to DSL


                                                                                                      Tomorrow morning we are switching to DSL. We just received our
                                                                                                      external modem and filters for the phones (phones will ring even if computer
                                                                                                      being used). We will be contacting our internet provider in the morning, as
                                                                                                      per instructions, to make the change. Hopefully the switch will go easy but
                                                                                                      my luck with personal computers is terrible. So I want to let people know I
                                                                                                      could be off line and off site for a "while.
                                                                                                      Now don't everyone stand up, cheer and say thank goodness that I will
                                                                                                      be out of touch.

                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8805 From: Mike Sloane Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: OT [vintageHO] switching to DSL
                                                                                                      I had just the reverse - my Verizon DSL was completely transparent and
                                                                                                      went very well. The only hitch was that the service desk told me it was
                                                                                                      in 2 days before the actual installation. I spent two days trying to
                                                                                                      make it work before I found out it wasn't there. :-) After that, it was
                                                                                                      a "no brainer".

                                                                                                      Mike

                                                                                                      Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Just hope it goes better than mine did! It was a hassle, had to convince
                                                                                                      > Ameritech to come out and string a new line from the house to the pole,
                                                                                                      > then
                                                                                                      > had to have the security service come out and fix the alarm, forgot THAT
                                                                                                      > needed a filter too!. Then the fooling around to get our mini LAN working
                                                                                                      > in the house (Lexy's laptop is wireless, my PC is hard wired into the
                                                                                                      > router), took about three weeks of fooling around but in the end it was
                                                                                                      > worth it.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Don
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                      > From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... <mailto:jimheck%40losch.net>>
                                                                                                      > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                                                                                      > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 7:11 PM
                                                                                                      > Subject: [vintageHO] switching to DSL
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Tomorrow morning we are switching to DSL. We just received our
                                                                                                      > external modem and filters for the phones (phones will ring even if
                                                                                                      > computer
                                                                                                      > being used). We will be contacting our internet provider in the morning, as
                                                                                                      > per instructions, to make the change. Hopefully the switch will go easy but
                                                                                                      > my luck with personal computers is terrible. So I want to let people know I
                                                                                                      > could be off line and off site for a "while.
                                                                                                      > Now don't everyone stand up, cheer and say thank goodness that I will
                                                                                                      > be out of touch.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Jim H
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8806 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: OT [vintageHO] switching to DSL
                                                                                                      Wow Don! With mine it was: plug in the filters, load software, plug in wireless. Took about an hour with all the tests the software ran, but worked fine right out of the box.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                      Steve
                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 3:17 AM
                                                                                                      Subject: Re:OT [vintageHO] switching to DSL

                                                                                                      Just hope it goes better than mine did!  It was a hassle, had to convince
                                                                                                      Ameritech to come out and string a new line from the house to the pole, then
                                                                                                      had to have the security service come out and fix the alarm, forgot THAT
                                                                                                      needed a filter too!.  Then the fooling around to get our mini LAN working
                                                                                                      in the house (Lexy's laptop is wireless, my PC is hard wired into the
                                                                                                      router), took about three weeks of fooling around but in the end it was
                                                                                                      worth it.

                                                                                                      Don



                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                      From: "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 7:11 PM
                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] switching to DSL


                                                                                                                 Tomorrow morning we are switching to DSL. We just received our
                                                                                                      external modem and filters for the phones (phones will ring even if computer
                                                                                                      being used). We will be contacting our internet provider in the morning, as
                                                                                                      per instructions, to make the change. Hopefully the switch will go easy but
                                                                                                      my luck with personal computers is terrible. So I want to let people know I
                                                                                                      could be off line and off site for a "while.
                                                                                                            Now don't everyone stand up, cheer and say thank goodness that I will
                                                                                                      be out of touch.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                           Jim H



                                                                                                      ------------------------------------

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                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8807 From: Gerald Garteiser Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Loco

                                                                                                      Ray-good to have you back!!   We have not heard from you in a while.  Jerry Garteiser

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Raymond Lorts Sr
                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 8:57 PM
                                                                                                      To: homodelers@yahoogroups.com; trainsallaspects@yahoogroups.com; vintageho@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Loco

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      Hi Guy's; I just back  my loco 4-6-2 Pacfic type   from whisite stop trains(www.wsor.com)

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      I had repair's .  I don't do it, I had a Stroke.

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                    Ray L

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                       
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8808 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: OT [vintageHO] switching to DSL
                                                                                                      Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                      > Just hope it goes better than mine did! It was a hassle, had to convince
                                                                                                      > Ameritech to come out and string a new line from the house to the pole, then
                                                                                                      > had to have the security service come out and fix the alarm, forgot THAT
                                                                                                      > needed a filter too!. Then the fooling around to get our mini LAN working
                                                                                                      > in the house (Lexy's laptop is wireless, my PC is hard wired into the
                                                                                                      > router), took about three weeks of fooling around but in the end it was
                                                                                                      > worth it.

                                                                                                      My Net connection was down for several hours last night. The lights
                                                                                                      on the DSL modem indicated the DSL carrier was there, but it was not
                                                                                                      connecting to the server. I called AT&T tech support and they had me me
                                                                                                      reseting the computer, the router, the modem and going through all sorts
                                                                                                      of other tests trying to prove that it was on my end. They finally
                                                                                                      admitted it was on their end as other people around the area started
                                                                                                      calling in with the same complaint.
                                                                                                      They obviously got it fixed now.

                                                                                                      --

                                                                                                      Rick Jones

                                                                                                      The Lake Erie & Oregon Railroad
                                                                                                      http://www.geocities.com/seventysixinchesoffun/

                                                                                                      "What did we take this country from the Indians for if we're not going
                                                                                                      to use it?"
                                                                                                      -Al Bundy, Married With Children"
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8809 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] back on
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                 It didn't take long. I'm back on the net and site. Only took about 15 minutes. I let my wife do this end and talk to the internet provider at the other end with the instructions. Boy will I be able to send pictures fast now. I might even get into sending the over 400 passenger cars I have.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8810 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/New One Mikes
                                                                                                      Jim,

                                                                                                      Thanks for the comments and good guidance. Some of what I have passed
                                                                                                      on is digested from some of the interview articles from years gone by
                                                                                                      of the various people who did the early importing, as well as having
                                                                                                      visited the area of Tokyo where the model building companies once
                                                                                                      flourished. Much like with Penn Line, the early builders had one or
                                                                                                      two full-time employees who made all the metal parts, assembled the
                                                                                                      locos or cars, etc, but they hired in students or women who did the
                                                                                                      fine detail work. There was an excellent photo in a typical assembly
                                                                                                      shop in one of the 1950s issues of MR, MT, RMC that shows several
                                                                                                      women hand painting the details on locomotives that look suspiciously
                                                                                                      like the New One "Bicycle" 4-2-2 locos.

                                                                                                      The transition from die-cast locos (and cars and planes) to brass
                                                                                                      locos was not overnight. New One eventually morphed into Tenshodo and
                                                                                                      for a while they were producing die cast and brass locos in parallel.
                                                                                                      The early PFM C&NW Brass 4-4-2 is clearly a modernized production
                                                                                                      version of the 4-4-2 that New One had done in die cast.

                                                                                                      What amazed me, even in the 1990s when I visited the Tenshodo store,
                                                                                                      was how many of the older models (not US prototypes) that were still
                                                                                                      on the shelves. One of the clerks, who spoke superb English (my
                                                                                                      Japanese is best described as either "pathetic" or "non functional")
                                                                                                      told me how to find one of the last independent loco building
                                                                                                      factories. It was about 10 blocks from the Ginza (where the Tenshodo
                                                                                                      building was located) and when I got there I found four men, at least
                                                                                                      in their 80s if not older, happily building a short run of Japanese
                                                                                                      D-51 2-8-2s. They spoke almost no English but showed me all the
                                                                                                      processes. There were several locomotives (all painted) in a display
                                                                                                      case that appeared to be die cast, but other than an open foundry I
                                                                                                      didn't see any molds or other die casting stuff.

                                                                                                      That is about it for my first-hand knowledge of Japanese loco
                                                                                                      building, but it wasn't mass-produced like Maerklin or other
                                                                                                      contemporary model railroad brands in other countries.

                                                                                                      Matt


                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Matt,
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > All those catalogs you have are very useful. The part you
                                                                                                      have to be careful is that sometimes pictures are never followed by
                                                                                                      the item. Case in point would be the Aristo Craft / New One Mason
                                                                                                      Bogie. A picture, actually a drawing, appears in Aristo Craft New One
                                                                                                      catalogs but no real HO engine has shown up. Another was an
                                                                                                      announcement by Lindberg of a new engine they were going to produce
                                                                                                      .It was a U boat engine (forget which type specific). They were at
                                                                                                      some train show and had the prototype to show. Even named the road
                                                                                                      names they were to letter the Diesel. There are many others
                                                                                                      > My point is that catalogs, write ups in MR and RMC don't always
                                                                                                      come about. I personally like to have a real (HO) engine in my hand to
                                                                                                      verify they were produced for the public. Go to www.hoseeker.net and
                                                                                                      under Aristo Craft you will find catalog of the New ones sold by Polk.
                                                                                                      > I have to look close at my Aristo Craft / New One Frisco Mikado
                                                                                                      and my Aristo Craft / New One Mountain to see if the 4 wheel tenders
                                                                                                      are the same.The 6 wheel Frisco tender I have not seen on others. Also
                                                                                                      I think the UP and AT&SF Mikado's were repainted. I have not seen any
                                                                                                      thing other then Frisco on the AC/NO Mikes.
                                                                                                      > I like your idea as to why the number on the AC/NO Frico tenders
                                                                                                      keep changing when you mentioned on a batch basis. Good thought to
                                                                                                      follow up. In a way it makes sense because of a story relayed to me
                                                                                                      about Penn Line numbers. A large number of teenagers were used after
                                                                                                      school to help with cost. Some were assigned to lettering and
                                                                                                      numbering items. They got bored and started to change the numbers.
                                                                                                      Today it is very hard to say with a 100% certainty that this PL item
                                                                                                      only came in this number because there MIGHT be small amounts with
                                                                                                      different numbers
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      Jim H.
                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                      > From: mmattjcoleman
                                                                                                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                      > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 11:57 AM
                                                                                                      > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Aristo Craft/New One Mikes
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8811 From: Charles Windes Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] back on
                                                                                                      Jim
                                                                                                      I am glad you made the switch well I enjoy reading all of your post.
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                      Charlie W.

                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                      From: "Jim Heckard"
                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: [yardbirdtrains] back on
                                                                                                      Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 12:17:20 -0500

                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                 It didn't take long. I'm back on the net and site. Only took about 15 minutes. I let my wife do this end and talk to the internet provider at the other end with the instructions. Boy will I be able to send pictures fast now. I might even get into sending the over 400 passenger cars I have.
                                                                                                                                                                                         Jim H


                                                                                                      --
                                                                                                      Be Yourself @ mail.com!
                                                                                                      Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
                                                                                                      Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!
                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8812 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                      Subject: NewOne responses, Pictures DSL
                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                        Bob D, Matt C, All,
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                 First I am sending these pictures using my new DSL connection to see how fast they send and how well they are received.
                                                                                                          Bob D    A picture of my New One 4-6-0 CNJ Camelback sold by HOTCO under the GHC label. You are right that MANY of this particular  type of engine just about fell apart from zinc pest (cracking and disintegration). Some had both the tender and engine bad and others one of the two. I was lucky to find one that has NO cracks what so ever and after this amount of time I don't think it will. The only problem it did have was that the ear for mounting the front truck was broke off. I don't think zinc pest. I just think very delicate and handled poorly. So there are "good" castings of this engine out there but I'm afraid few and far between.
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                         Matt C    Second picture is a New One 2-8-0 BRASS Camelback. Yes this is brass. Some one chemically altered it that it looks more cast then brass. I was told it might have had gun bluing put on it but can't say for sure. The tender with this engine has New One stamped into the underside. The original box it came on is a dark blue with no print at all. Was it bought in Japan or imported by a dealer, like Polk, here in America.
                                                                                                          I'm sending this picture because you mention a time period where both cast zamac and brass were produced by New One.
                                                                                                          
                                                                                                          Will some one please let me know that the pictures arrived and they are OK.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8813 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] back on
                                                                                                        Charles,
                                                                                                                Thanks for the kind welcome back. Always available to try to answer questions, if I can.
                                                                                                                                                       Jim
                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                        Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 12:54 PM
                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: [yardbirdtrains] back on

                                                                                                        Jim
                                                                                                        I am glad you made the switch well I enjoy reading all of your post.
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                        Charlie W.

                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                        From: "Jim Heckard"
                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: [yardbirdtrains] back on
                                                                                                        Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 12:17:20 -0500

                                                                                                         
                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                   It didn't take long. I'm back on the net and site. Only took about 15 minutes. I let my wife do this end and talk to the internet provider at the other end with the instructions. Boy will I be able to send pictures fast now. I might even get into sending the over 400 passenger cars I have.
                                                                                                                                                                                           Jim H


                                                                                                        --
                                                                                                        Be Yourself @ mail.com!
                                                                                                        Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
                                                                                                        Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!
                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8814 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                        Subject: Re: NewOne responses, Pictures DSL

                                                                                                        Hi Jim,

                                                                                                        The photos look like all of the other ones you have sent, so you are good there.  You should enjoy this faster link, you will be surprised that some of the website you have visited will even have more for you to see.  I know I was.

                                                                                                         

                                                                                                        Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                                                         

                                                                                                        From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jim Heckard
                                                                                                        Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 1:29 PM
                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                        Cc: Jim Waterman
                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] NewOne responses, Pictures DSL

                                                                                                         

                                                                                                        Bob D, Matt C, All,

                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                 First I am sending these pictures using my new DSL connection to see how fast they send and how well they are received.

                                                                                                          Bob D    A picture of my New One 4-6-0 CNJ Camelback sold by HOTCO under the GHC label. You are right that MANY of this particular  type of engine just about fell apart from zinc pest (cracking and disintegration) . Some had both the tender and engine bad and others one of the two. I was lucky to find one that has NO cracks what so ever and after this amount of time I don't think it will. The only problem it did have was that the ear for mounting the front truck was broke off. I don't think zinc pest. I just think very delicate and handled poorly. So there are "good" castings of this engine out there but I'm afraid few and far between.

                                                                                                         

                                                                                                         Matt C    Second picture is a New One 2-8-0 BRASS Camelback. Yes this is brass. Some one chemically altered it that it looks more cast then brass. I was told it might have had gun bluing put on it but can't say for sure. The tender with this engine has New One stamped into the underside. The original box it came on is a dark blue with no print at all. Was it bought in Japan or imported by a dealer, like Polk, here in America .

                                                                                                          I'm sending this picture because you mention a time period where both cast zamac and brass were produced by New One.

                                                                                                          

                                                                                                          Will some one please let me know that the pictures arrived and they are OK.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Jim H

                                                                                                         
                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8815 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                        Subject: Re: varney parts
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                         

                                                                                                             Anyone needing Varney parts check out  Ebay  300295359775 and then go into the sellers list. A great list of vintage Varney parts. Might be something you need.
                                                                                                                                                                                           Jim H
                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8816 From: Jim Waterman Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                        Subject: Re: NewOne responses, Pictures DSL
                                                                                                        Jim
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                        I got em fine.
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                        I also have one of the GHC Camelbacks. I have 2 tenders-  the frame on one cracked, so I used a brass frame from another tender. I really like this model, and mine runs pretty well.
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                        Jim
                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                        Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 1:28 PM
                                                                                                        Subject: NewOne responses, Pictures DSL

                                                                                                        Bob D, Matt C, All,
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                 First I am sending these pictures using my new DSL connection to see how fast they send and how well they are received.
                                                                                                          Bob D    A picture of my New One 4-6-0 CNJ Camelback sold by HOTCO under the GHC label. You are right that MANY of this particular  type of engine just about fell apart from zinc pest (cracking and disintegration). Some had both the tender and engine bad and others one of the two. I was lucky to find one that has NO cracks what so ever and after this amount of time I don't think it will. The only problem it did have was that the ear for mounting the front truck was broke off. I don't think zinc pest. I just think very delicate and handled poorly. So there are "good" castings of this engine out there but I'm afraid few and far between.
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                         Matt C    Second picture is a New One 2-8-0 BRASS Camelback. Yes this is brass. Some one chemically altered it that it looks more cast then brass. I was told it might have had gun bluing put on it but can't say for sure. The tender with this engine has New One stamped into the underside. The original box it came on is a dark blue with no print at all. Was it bought in Japan or imported by a dealer, like Polk, here in America.
                                                                                                          I'm sending this picture because you mention a time period where both cast zamac and brass were produced by New One.
                                                                                                          
                                                                                                          Will some one please let me know that the pictures arrived and they are OK.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8817 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] back on
                                                                                                        Hey, Yardbird--contact me off list--I have a couple of Docksides I'd like to have  restored--    
                                                                                                         glenn476@...       
                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                        Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 9:54 AM
                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: [yardbirdtrains] back on

                                                                                                        Jim
                                                                                                        I am glad you made the switch well I enjoy reading all of your post.
                                                                                                         
                                                                                                        Charlie W.

                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                        From: "Jim Heckard"
                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: [yardbirdtrains] back on
                                                                                                        Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 12:17:20 -0500

                                                                                                         
                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                   It didn't take long. I'm back on the net and site. Only took about 15 minutes. I let my wife do this end and talk to the internet provider at the other end with the instructions. Boy will I be able to send pictures fast now. I might even get into sending the over 400 passenger cars I have.
                                                                                                                                                                                           Jim H


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                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8818 From: Peter Nyce Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                        Subject: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                          Hi Group,

                                                                                                          As a "old school" model railroader and an old car fan, I thought it might
                                                                                                          be of interest to bring up the LeRoy Toy & Novelty Co, of Philadelphia. In
                                                                                                          the Postwar period they offered a large selection of HO vehicles such as
                                                                                                          Packards, Kaisers, Jeepsters, Lincoln Continentals, etc., and strangely
                                                                                                          enough, the Tucker, which I have pictured. The cars (and trucks) were made
                                                                                                          of a very hard plaster (possibly dental stone) with either cast-on wheels
                                                                                                          or embedded Tootsietoy-like tires. They came unpainted at $.95 for a box of
                                                                                                          six, and have a surprisingly high level of detail.

                                                                                                          That LeRoy chose to model the Tucker is really a surprise, as the prototype
                                                                                                          never went into production. Only 53 Tuckers were ever produced! Also, they
                                                                                                          modeled the Tucker with fender skirts, and no prototype Tucker ever had them.

                                                                                                          I picked up a few boxes of various makes in the 50's and have painted some
                                                                                                          of them. The blue on my Tucker is close to the prototype's Pearlescent Blue.

                                                                                                          Thanks for listening,
                                                                                                          Peter
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8819 From: Charlie Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
                                                                                                          Hi
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                          Did they ever make an HO 'Pullman Railplane'  same as the cast model by Arcade in the late 30s ?
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                          Anyone got a 'Railplane'  ?
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                          Charlie
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                          From: Peter Nyce
                                                                                                          Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 2:01 PM
                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles

                                                                                                          Hi Group,

                                                                                                          As a "old school" model railroader and an old car fan, I thought it might
                                                                                                          be of interest to bring up the LeRoy Toy & Novelty Co, of Philadelphia. In
                                                                                                          the Postwar period they offered a large selection of HO vehicles such as
                                                                                                          Packards, Kaisers, Jeepsters, Lincoln Continentals, etc., and strangely
                                                                                                          enough, the Tucker, which I have pictured. The cars (and trucks) were made
                                                                                                          of a very hard plaster (possibly dental stone) with either cast-on wheels
                                                                                                          or embedded Tootsietoy-like tires. They came unpainted at $.95 for a box of
                                                                                                          six, and have a surprisingly high level of detail.

                                                                                                          That LeRoy chose to model the Tucker is really a surprise, as the prototype
                                                                                                          never went into production. Only 53 Tuckers were ever produced! Also, they
                                                                                                          modeled the Tucker with fender skirts, and no prototype Tucker ever had them.

                                                                                                          I picked up a few boxes of various makes in the 50's and have painted some
                                                                                                          of them. The blue on my Tucker is close to the prototype's Pearlescent Blue.

                                                                                                          Thanks for listening,
                                                                                                          Peter

                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8820 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
                                                                                                          Since the model is painted, were these a pinkish-white tone when unpainted? In a box box of vintage HO I once bought (Seemed to be from a very old club layout, as there was a newspaper article that showed some of the trains I got in the pictures, and dated from the early 1950s), there were three plaster vehicles, which were described as 'soapstone' in the auction. The seller also said she was not sure what they were made of, that soapstone was just a guess. I don't know much about vintage cars, but one looks like the Varney four door a bit. Another was some kind of convertible, and a third was a 1920s looking car, Ford I think.

                                                                                                          -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                          --- On Sat, 2/21/09, Peter Nyce <peternyce@...> wrote:
                                                                                                          From: Peter Nyce <peternyce@...>
                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                          Date: Saturday, February 21, 2009, 7:01 PM

                                                                                                          Hi Group,

                                                                                                          As a "old school" model railroader and an old car fan, I thought it might
                                                                                                          be of interest to bring up the LeRoy Toy & Novelty Co, of Philadelphia. In
                                                                                                          the Postwar period they offered a large selection of HO vehicles such as
                                                                                                          Packards, Kaisers, Jeepsters, Lincoln Continentals, etc., and strangely
                                                                                                          enough, the Tucker, which I have pictured. The cars (and trucks) were made
                                                                                                          of a very hard plaster (possibly dental stone) with either cast-on wheels
                                                                                                          or embedded Tootsietoy-like tires. They came unpainted at $.95 for a box of
                                                                                                          six, and have a surprisingly high level of detail.

                                                                                                          That LeRoy chose to model the Tucker is really a surprise, as the prototype
                                                                                                          never went into production. Only 53 Tuckers were ever produced! Also, they
                                                                                                          modeled the Tucker with fender skirts, and no prototype Tucker ever had them.

                                                                                                          I picked up a few boxes of various makes in the 50's and have painted some
                                                                                                          of them. The blue on my Tucker is close to the prototype's Pearlescent Blue.

                                                                                                          Thanks for listening,
                                                                                                          Peter

                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8821 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles

                                                                                                          Peter,

                                                                                                          Thanks for posting those photos.  I will have to remember to put some vintage cars in a vintage section of my layout.  That Tucker is great to see.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Peter Nyce
                                                                                                          Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 8:01 PM
                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                          Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          Hi Group,

                                                                                                          As a "old school" model railroader and an old car fan, I thought it might
                                                                                                          be of interest to bring up the LeRoy Toy & Novelty Co, of Philadelphia . In
                                                                                                          the Postwar period they offered a large selection of HO vehicles such as
                                                                                                          Packards, Kaisers, Jeepsters, Lincoln Continentals, etc., and strangely
                                                                                                          enough, the Tucker, which I have pictured. The cars (and trucks) were made
                                                                                                          of a very hard plaster (possibly dental stone) with either cast-on wheels
                                                                                                          or embedded Tootsietoy-like tires. They came unpainted at $.95 for a box of
                                                                                                          six, and have a surprisingly high level of detail.

                                                                                                          That LeRoy chose to model the Tucker is really a surprise, as the prototype
                                                                                                          never went into production. Only 53 Tuckers were ever produced! Also, they
                                                                                                          modeled the Tucker with fender skirts, and no prototype Tucker ever had them.

                                                                                                          I picked up a few boxes of various makes in the 50's and have painted some
                                                                                                          of them. The blue on my Tucker is close to the prototype's Pearlescent Blue.

                                                                                                          Thanks for listening,
                                                                                                          Peter
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8822 From: nycepeter Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
                                                                                                          Hi Charlie,

                                                                                                          It's possible. They also made TT scale tunnel portals and stone arch
                                                                                                          bridges. I'm only familiar with the HO automobiles though.

                                                                                                          Peter


                                                                                                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charlie" <railroads@...> wrote:
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Hi
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Did they ever make an HO 'Pullman Railplane' same as the cast
                                                                                                          model by Arcade in the late 30s ?
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Anyone got a 'Railplane' ?
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Charlie
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                          > From: Peter Nyce
                                                                                                          > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                          > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 2:01 PM
                                                                                                          > Subject: [vintageHO] LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Hi Group,
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > As a "old school" model railroader and an old car fan, I thought
                                                                                                          it might
                                                                                                          > be of interest to bring up the LeRoy Toy & Novelty Co, of
                                                                                                          Philadelphia. In
                                                                                                          > the Postwar period they offered a large selection of HO vehicles
                                                                                                          such as
                                                                                                          > Packards, Kaisers, Jeepsters, Lincoln Continentals, etc., and
                                                                                                          strangely
                                                                                                          > enough, the Tucker, which I have pictured. The cars (and trucks)
                                                                                                          were made
                                                                                                          > of a very hard plaster (possibly dental stone) with either cast-
                                                                                                          on wheels
                                                                                                          > or embedded Tootsietoy-like tires. They came unpainted at $.95
                                                                                                          for a box of
                                                                                                          > six, and have a surprisingly high level of detail.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > That LeRoy chose to model the Tucker is really a surprise, as
                                                                                                          the prototype
                                                                                                          > never went into production. Only 53 Tuckers were ever produced!
                                                                                                          Also, they
                                                                                                          > modeled the Tucker with fender skirts, and no prototype Tucker
                                                                                                          ever had them.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > I picked up a few boxes of various makes in the 50's and have
                                                                                                          painted some
                                                                                                          > of them. The blue on my Tucker is close to the prototype's
                                                                                                          Pearlescent Blue.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Thanks for listening,
                                                                                                          > Peter
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8823 From: nycepeter Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
                                                                                                          Steve,

                                                                                                          Yes, they are white with a little pinkish cast. The material is
                                                                                                          really hard which is why I likened it to dental stone. LeRoy made
                                                                                                          mostly Postwar cars, 1946-1948, but they did make a few Prewar
                                                                                                          models also. Dinky Toy (O gauge) and Tootsietoy (S gauge) cars were
                                                                                                          not right for HO, but the LeRoy cars were perfect.

                                                                                                          Peter

                                                                                                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum
                                                                                                          <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Since the model is painted, were these a pinkish-white tone when
                                                                                                          unpainted? In a box box of vintage HO I once bought (Seemed to be
                                                                                                          from a very old club layout, as there was a newspaper article that
                                                                                                          showed some of the trains I got in the pictures, and dated from the
                                                                                                          early 1950s), there were three plaster vehicles, which were
                                                                                                          described as 'soapstone' in the auction. The seller also said she
                                                                                                          was not sure what they were made of, that soapstone was just a
                                                                                                          guess. I don't know much about vintage cars, but one looks like the
                                                                                                          Varney four door a bit. Another was some kind of convertible, and a
                                                                                                          third was a 1920s looking car, Ford I think.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > --- On Sat, 2/21/09, Peter Nyce <peternyce@...> wrote:
                                                                                                          > From: Peter Nyce <peternyce@...>
                                                                                                          > Subject: [vintageHO] LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
                                                                                                          > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                          > Date: Saturday, February 21, 2009, 7:01 PM
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Hi Group,
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > As a "old school" model railroader and an old car fan, I thought
                                                                                                          it might
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > be of interest to bring up the LeRoy Toy & Novelty Co, of
                                                                                                          Philadelphia. In
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > the Postwar period they offered a large selection of HO vehicles
                                                                                                          such as
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Packards, Kaisers, Jeepsters, Lincoln Continentals, etc., and
                                                                                                          strangely
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > enough, the Tucker, which I have pictured. The cars (and trucks)
                                                                                                          were made
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > of a very hard plaster (possibly dental stone) with either cast-on
                                                                                                          wheels
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > or embedded Tootsietoy-like tires. They came unpainted at $.95 for
                                                                                                          a box of
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > six, and have a surprisingly high level of detail.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > That LeRoy chose to model the Tucker is really a surprise, as the
                                                                                                          prototype
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > never went into production. Only 53 Tuckers were ever produced!
                                                                                                          Also, they
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > modeled the Tucker with fender skirts, and no prototype Tucker
                                                                                                          ever had them.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > I picked up a few boxes of various makes in the 50's and have
                                                                                                          painted some
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > of them. The blue on my Tucker is close to the prototype's
                                                                                                          Pearlescent Blue.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Thanks for listening,
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Peter
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8824 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
                                                                                                          I just looked at my three vehicles again. Since I sprayed them with primer a week ago, and just haven't gotten around to painting them, only the bottoms are bare material. But yeah, they are less pinkish than I thought they were from memory. So now I probably have an ID for these. I was wondering who made them, so I owe a big thanks to this group again!

                                                                                                          -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                          --- On Sat, 2/21/09, nycepeter <peternyce@...> wrote:
                                                                                                          From: nycepeter <peternyce@...>
                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                          Date: Saturday, February 21, 2009, 9:41 PM

                                                                                                          Steve,

                                                                                                          Yes, they are white with a little pinkish cast. The material is
                                                                                                          really hard which is why I likened it to dental stone. LeRoy made
                                                                                                          mostly Postwar cars, 1946-1948, but they did make a few Prewar
                                                                                                          models also. Dinky Toy (O gauge) and Tootsietoy (S gauge) cars were
                                                                                                          not right for HO, but the LeRoy cars were perfect.

                                                                                                          Peter

                                                                                                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Stephen Neubaum
                                                                                                          <computersystemrebu ild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Since the model is painted, were these a pinkish-white tone when
                                                                                                          unpainted? In a box box of vintage HO I once bought (Seemed to be
                                                                                                          from a very old club layout, as there was a newspaper article that
                                                                                                          showed some of the trains I got in the pictures, and dated from the
                                                                                                          early 1950s), there were three plaster vehicles, which were
                                                                                                          described as 'soapstone' in the auction. The seller also said she
                                                                                                          was not sure what they were made of, that soapstone was just a
                                                                                                          guess. I don't know much about vintage cars, but one looks like the
                                                                                                          Varney four door a bit. Another was some kind of convertible, and a
                                                                                                          third was a 1920s looking car, Ford I think.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > --- On Sat, 2/21/09, Peter Nyce <peternyce@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                          > From: Peter Nyce <peternyce@. ..>
                                                                                                          > Subject: [vintageHO] LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
                                                                                                          > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                          > Date: Saturday, February 21, 2009, 7:01 PM
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Hi Group,
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > As a "old school" model railroader and an old car fan, I thought
                                                                                                          it might
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > be of interest to bring up the LeRoy Toy & Novelty Co, of
                                                                                                          Philadelphia. In
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > the Postwar period they offered a large selection of HO vehicles
                                                                                                          such as
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Packards, Kaisers, Jeepsters, Lincoln Continentals, etc., and
                                                                                                          strangely
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > enough, the Tucker, which I have pictured. The cars (and trucks)
                                                                                                          were made
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > of a very hard plaster (possibly dental stone) with either cast-on
                                                                                                          wheels
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > or embedded Tootsietoy-like tires. They came unpainted at $.95 for
                                                                                                          a box of
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > six, and have a surprisingly high level of detail.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > That LeRoy chose to model the Tucker is really a surprise, as the
                                                                                                          prototype
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > never went into production. Only 53 Tuckers were ever produced!
                                                                                                          Also, they
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > modeled the Tucker with fender skirts, and no prototype Tucker
                                                                                                          ever had them.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > I picked up a few boxes of various makes in the 50's and have
                                                                                                          painted some
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > of them. The blue on my Tucker is close to the prototype's
                                                                                                          Pearlescent Blue.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Thanks for listening,
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Peter
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8825 From: nycepeter Date: 2/21/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
                                                                                                          Hi Chuck,

                                                                                                          My pleasure. Very few people have ever seen or heard of the cars, so
                                                                                                          I thought it would be fun to share.

                                                                                                          BTW, if you polish those Rail Chief cars with Mother's Mag Wheel
                                                                                                          Polish with a little steel wool, they'll come up like polished
                                                                                                          stainless steel. Some clear lacquer will keep then that way.

                                                                                                          Peter

                                                                                                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                          wrote:
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Peter,
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Thanks for posting those photos. I will have to remember to put
                                                                                                          some
                                                                                                          > vintage cars in a vintage section of my layout. That Tucker is
                                                                                                          great to
                                                                                                          > see.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                          > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > _____
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]
                                                                                                          On Behalf
                                                                                                          > Of Peter Nyce
                                                                                                          > Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 8:01 PM
                                                                                                          > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                          > Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Hi Group,
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > As a "old school" model railroader and an old car fan, I thought
                                                                                                          it might
                                                                                                          > be of interest to bring up the LeRoy Toy & Novelty Co, of
                                                                                                          Philadelphia. In
                                                                                                          > the Postwar period they offered a large selection of HO vehicles
                                                                                                          such as
                                                                                                          > Packards, Kaisers, Jeepsters, Lincoln Continentals, etc., and
                                                                                                          strangely
                                                                                                          > enough, the Tucker, which I have pictured. The cars (and trucks)
                                                                                                          were made
                                                                                                          > of a very hard plaster (possibly dental stone) with either cast-on
                                                                                                          wheels
                                                                                                          > or embedded Tootsietoy-like tires. They came unpainted at $.95 for
                                                                                                          a box of
                                                                                                          > six, and have a surprisingly high level of detail.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > That LeRoy chose to model the Tucker is really a surprise, as the
                                                                                                          prototype
                                                                                                          > never went into production. Only 53 Tuckers were ever produced!
                                                                                                          Also, they
                                                                                                          > modeled the Tucker with fender skirts, and no prototype Tucker
                                                                                                          ever had
                                                                                                          > them.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > I picked up a few boxes of various makes in the 50's and have
                                                                                                          painted some
                                                                                                          > of them. The blue on my Tucker is close to the prototype's
                                                                                                          Pearlescent Blue.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Thanks for listening,
                                                                                                          > Peter
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8826 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 2/22/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: NewOne responses, Pictures DSL
                                                                                                          Jim,

                                                                                                          Fascinating photo of the brass Camelback! I have a brass 2-8-0 (Ma&Pa
                                                                                                          sort of) that is also brass but I have two others that are die cast.
                                                                                                          All with very similar boxes. I would love to know the true history on
                                                                                                          all of those.

                                                                                                          Great photos and thanks!

                                                                                                          Matt Coleman


                                                                                                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Bob D, Matt C, All,
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > First I am sending these pictures using my new DSL
                                                                                                          connection to see how fast they send and how well they are received.
                                                                                                          > Bob D A picture of my New One 4-6-0 CNJ Camelback sold by HOTCO
                                                                                                          under the GHC label. You are right that MANY of this particular type
                                                                                                          of engine just about fell apart from zinc pest (cracking and
                                                                                                          disintegration). Some had both the tender and engine bad and others
                                                                                                          one of the two. I was lucky to find one that has NO cracks what so
                                                                                                          ever and after this amount of time I don't think it will. The only
                                                                                                          problem it did have was that the ear for mounting the front truck was
                                                                                                          broke off. I don't think zinc pest. I just think very delicate and
                                                                                                          handled poorly. So there are "good" castings of this engine out there
                                                                                                          but I'm afraid few and far between.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Matt C Second picture is a New One 2-8-0 BRASS Camelback. Yes
                                                                                                          this is brass. Some one chemically altered it that it looks more cast
                                                                                                          then brass. I was told it might have had gun bluing put on it but
                                                                                                          can't say for sure. The tender with this engine has New One stamped
                                                                                                          into the underside. The original box it came on is a dark blue with no
                                                                                                          print at all. Was it bought in Japan or imported by a dealer, like
                                                                                                          Polk, here in America.
                                                                                                          > I'm sending this picture because you mention a time period where
                                                                                                          both cast zamac and brass were produced by New One.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Will some one please let me know that the pictures arrived and
                                                                                                          they are OK.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          Jim H
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8827 From: Jim Waterman Date: 2/22/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] back on
                                                                                                          That is an exciting thought!
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                          Did you figure out how to load up multiple pictures at once?
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                          Jim
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8828 From: Mike Sloane Date: 2/22/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
                                                                                                          I think that someone bought the molds. It seems to me that a model RR
                                                                                                          shop in MD was selling them via ads in MR back in the 70s. I bought one
                                                                                                          of each (about a dozen) for the grand total of $5. I didn't really find
                                                                                                          them suitable for the main part of the layout, but I painted them some
                                                                                                          and piled them up as part of a background "junkyard". See
                                                                                                          <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/plastervehicles1.html>
                                                                                                          for an image. The material of the ones I bought was fine white plaster,
                                                                                                          but I don't think it was as hard as "dental stone".

                                                                                                          Thanks for the input - I have added that to the caption on the image. If
                                                                                                          anyone wants more detailed images of any of the vehicles, I can supply
                                                                                                          them. Contact me off-line at <mikesloane@...>.

                                                                                                          Mike

                                                                                                          Peter Nyce wrote:
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Hi Group,
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > As a "old school" model railroader and an old car fan, I thought it might
                                                                                                          > be of interest to bring up the LeRoy Toy & Novelty Co, of Philadelphia. In
                                                                                                          > the Postwar period they offered a large selection of HO vehicles such as
                                                                                                          > Packards, Kaisers, Jeepsters, Lincoln Continentals, etc., and strangely
                                                                                                          > enough, the Tucker, which I have pictured. The cars (and trucks) were made
                                                                                                          > of a very hard plaster (possibly dental stone) with either cast-on wheels
                                                                                                          > or embedded Tootsietoy-like tires. They came unpainted at $.95 for a box of
                                                                                                          > six, and have a surprisingly high level of detail.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > That LeRoy chose to model the Tucker is really a surprise, as the prototype
                                                                                                          > never went into production. Only 53 Tuckers were ever produced! Also, they
                                                                                                          > modeled the Tucker with fender skirts, and no prototype Tucker ever had
                                                                                                          > them.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > I picked up a few boxes of various makes in the 50's and have painted some
                                                                                                          > of them. The blue on my Tucker is close to the prototype's Pearlescent Blue.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Thanks for listening,
                                                                                                          > Peter
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8829 From: Thomas Parsons Date: 2/22/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Loco
                                                                                                          Glad you got your engine back. What kind of layout do you have?  Tom Parsons

                                                                                                          --- On Fri, 2/20/09, Raymond Lorts Sr <RaymondLorts@...> wrote:
                                                                                                          From: Raymond Lorts Sr <RaymondLorts@...>
                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Loco
                                                                                                          To: homodelers@yahoogroups.com, trainsallaspects@yahoogroups.com, vintageho@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                          Date: Friday, February 20, 2009, 6:56 PM

                                                                                                          Hi Guy's; I just back  my loco 4-6-2 Pacfic type   from whisite stop trains(www.wsor.com)
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                          I had repair's .  I don't do it, I had a Stroke.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                        Ray L
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8830 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/22/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles
                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                          From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                          To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                          Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 5:49 AM
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles


                                                                                                          >I think that someone bought the molds. It seems to me that a model RR
                                                                                                          > shop in MD was selling them via ads in MR back in the 70s. I bought one
                                                                                                          > of each (about a dozen) for the grand total of $5. I didn't really find
                                                                                                          > them suitable for the main part of the layout, but I painted them some
                                                                                                          > and piled them up as part of a background "junkyard". See
                                                                                                          > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/plastervehicles1.html>
                                                                                                          > for an image. The material of the ones I bought was fine white plaster,
                                                                                                          > but I don't think it was as hard as "dental stone".
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Thanks for the input - I have added that to the caption on the image. If
                                                                                                          > anyone wants more detailed images of any of the vehicles, I can supply
                                                                                                          > them. Contact me off-line at <mikesloane@...>.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Mike
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Peter Nyce wrote:

                                                                                                          The ones sold in the 70's by "odo's models" were not from original molds. I
                                                                                                          have a few and it appeared that he made his own molds from production
                                                                                                          models. In addition to the plaster originals, he also did some from Revell
                                                                                                          and Wiking models.

                                                                                                          I don't know if they were the same ones as the "LeRoy", but the original
                                                                                                          plaster ones with the rubber wheels were sold as late as the very early 60's
                                                                                                          under another name (I forget the name is was something like "Model Hobbies"
                                                                                                          or "General Hobbies"? They also made a line of wood structures).

                                                                                                          There are a couple of the originals pictured in my "zdon_dellmann's
                                                                                                          stuff-Scenery" album

                                                                                                          Don

                                                                                                          Don Dellmann
                                                                                                          don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                          http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                          http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                          Owner
                                                                                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8831 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/22/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles

                                                                                                          Hi Peter,

                                                                                                          Thanks for the tip

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of nycepeter
                                                                                                          Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 10:52 PM
                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                          Subject: [SPAM][vintageHO] Re: LeRoy Toy & Novelty Vehicles

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          Hi Chuck,

                                                                                                          My pleasure. Very few people have ever seen or heard of the cars, so
                                                                                                          I thought it would be fun to share.

                                                                                                          BTW, if you polish those Rail Chief cars with Mother's Mag Wheel
                                                                                                          Polish with a little steel wool, they'll come up like polished
                                                                                                          stainless steel. Some clear lacquer will keep then that way.

                                                                                                          Peter
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8832 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 2/22/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Always a good article for vintage railroading
                                                                                                          Hi everyone, I'm sure most of you have read this series of articles, but I was re-reading it and thought I would pass it on in case someone in the group had not seen it.

                                                                                                          Brian L
                                                                                                          http://www.aristocraft.com/articles/nat/nattca1.html
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8833 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/22/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
                                                                                                          Brian L,
                                                                                                                     I for one had never read this particular story/interview. While I know some of the facts this is great since it comes "right from the horses mouth"  I have had correspondence with Bernie Paul over the years and want to see if the letters he sent me match what Nate Polk recollects. Other lesser know people and companies will fill in a lot of blanks.  I had started to read it off the computer but decided to print out the entire interview. I was just getting to the Aristo part and have to go finish that now.
                                                                                                                   I think this is great. Never knew it was out there. Thanks a lot for posting it.
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                          From: bslook@...
                                                                                                          Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 6:42 PM
                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Always a good article for vintage railroading

                                                                                                          Hi everyone, I'm sure most of you have read this series of articles, but I was re-reading it and thought I would pass it on in case someone in the group had not seen it.

                                                                                                          Brian L
                                                                                                          http://www.aristocr aft.com/articles /nat/nattca1. html

                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8834 From: rrdeffinger@msn.com Date: 2/22/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: New One B&O blue 4-6-0
                                                                                                          Jim and others,
                                                                                                          I've been working on a New One B&O blue 4-6-0,  but it looks like the side rodes  both have an elongated hole for the last driver. I don't think it had much, if any, run time because the drivers hit the bottom of the walk ways and the middle driver's spokes on the insulated side aren't all the way in the rim. Didn't try to fix that, don't think it can be fixed. They are in gauge.  I had an extra frame so I filed away the frame so the middle driver would turn and raised the boiler just a little so the drivers wouldn't rub the walkway. But it still has the "Hickcups" if I connect the last driver.
                                                                                                          Does the one you have, have the elongated holes in the siderodes for the last driver?
                                                                                                          The siderod screws have been filed down too, they bearly cover the holes. And all the drivers are a little sloppy in their slots, wobbling up and down when powered up on a test stand with the drivers not touching anything.
                                                                                                          Anyone else have this problem with this engine?
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                          Jim, I noticed your New One 4-4-2 needs an airpump. Do you have the one for it?
                                                                                                          Bob D.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                          CC: watermaj@...
                                                                                                          From: jimheck@...
                                                                                                          Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:41:45 -0500
                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 4-4-2 vs New One 4-4-2

                                                                                                              I'm sending these two pictures to help explain a little discussion that went on with my good friend Gerold E, from across the pond. It concerned a possibly bit of confusion I may have caused. These pictures might help those members better understand what we were talking about.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                    The first picture is a Rivarossi 4-4-2 Atlantic. It was made roughly around 1952-1955. It was sold by Polk's Hobby and listed in his catalogs. This engine was produced earlier then Rivarossi American style engines that were sold under the AHM/Rivarossi name. These started to appear around 1966 in places like Woolworth's and other so called 5&10 cent stores.
                                                                                                              It is a "copy" of a Southern Pacific style Atlantic. It is made of a heavy plastic, both Engine and Tender, with Bakelite probably being the easiest name to describe it. It ran very good and had a motor / drive in the engine that was different from later AHM / RIvarossi steam.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                    The second picture is of the all metal (cast zamac?) 4-4-2 Atlantic that was made by New One in Japan and sold by both Polk Hobbies under his Aristo Craft name and by HOTCO / General Hobbies Corporation of Philadelphia which later became known as AHM. This engine had a lot of cracking and disintegrating (what I call zinc pest). This engine made roughly around 1958-1960. It had many railroad names printed on the tender. Like a number of New One engines not the best of runners.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                    Hope this will help to distinguish two entirely different engines by two entirely different companies. Any one feeling I made a mistake let me know. Not the best at typing or proof reading
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                             Jim H
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           



                                                                                                          It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. Get your account now.
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8835 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/23/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: New One B&O blue 4-6-0
                                                                                                          Bob D,
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                               The B&O Blue 4-6-0 by New One I have is mint in a box. It is totally mint as the bell is still in the plastic bag and the little gel packet for moisture is in the box too. I don't think this engine has ever been run. I don't think it was even. "lifted out" of the red velvet material it sits in. I will try to look at the last driver to see if elongated but can't guarantee what I can see. As for rubbing the walkway I can't help as I said engine never run.  Sorry.
                                                                                                               As for my New One 4-4-2 missing the airpump I will have to check it and against picture of the model. I'm not much into the "real thing" so perhaps you can tell me which side and where this airpump should be located.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Jim H
                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                          Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 12:09 AM
                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] New One B&O blue 4-6-0

                                                                                                          Jim and others,
                                                                                                          I've been working on a New One B&O blue 4-6-0,  but it looks like the side rodes  both have an elongated hole for the last driver. I don't think it had much, if any, run time because the drivers hit the bottom of the walk ways and the middle driver's spokes on the insulated side aren't all the way in the rim. Didn't try to fix that, don't think it can be fixed. They are in gauge.  I had an extra frame so I filed away the frame so the middle driver would turn and raised the boiler just a little so the drivers wouldn't rub the walkway. But it still has the "Hickcups" if I connect the last driver.
                                                                                                          Does the one you have, have the elongated holes in the siderodes for the last driver?
                                                                                                          The siderod screws have been filed down too, they bearly cover the holes. And all the drivers are a little sloppy in their slots, wobbling up and down when powered up on a test stand with the drivers not touching anything.
                                                                                                          Anyone else have this problem with this engine?
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                          Jim, I noticed your New One 4-4-2 needs an airpump. Do you have the one for it?
                                                                                                          Bob D.
                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                          CC: watermaj@comcast. net
                                                                                                          From: jimheck@losch. net
                                                                                                          Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:41:45 -0500
                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 4-4-2 vs New One 4-4-2

                                                                                                              I'm sending these two pictures to help explain a little discussion that went on with my good friend Gerold E, from across the pond. It concerned a possibly bit of confusion I may have caused. These pictures might help those members better understand what we were talking about.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                    The first picture is a Rivarossi 4-4-2 Atlantic. It was made roughly around 1952-1955. It was sold by Polk's Hobby and listed in his catalogs. This engine was produced earlier then Rivarossi American style engines that were sold under the AHM/Rivarossi name. These started to appear around 1966 in places like Woolworth's and other so called 5&10 cent stores.
                                                                                                              It is a "copy" of a Southern Pacific style Atlantic. It is made of a heavy plastic, both Engine and Tender, with Bakelite probably being the easiest name to describe it. It ran very good and had a motor / drive in the engine that was different from later AHM / RIvarossi steam.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                    The second picture is of the all metal (cast zamac?) 4-4-2 Atlantic that was made by New One in Japan and sold by both Polk Hobbies under his Aristo Craft name and by HOTCO / General Hobbies Corporation of Philadelphia which later became known as AHM. This engine had a lot of cracking and disintegrating (what I call zinc pest). This engine made roughly around 1958-1960. It had many railroad names printed on the tender. Like a number of New One engines not the best of runners.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                    Hope this will help to distinguish two entirely different engines by two entirely different companies. Any one feeling I made a mistake let me know. Not the best at typing or proof reading
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                             Jim H
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           



                                                                                                          It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. Get your account now.

                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8836 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 2/23/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
                                                                                                          Hi Jim, I am glad you liked the article, I certainly did, when I read it for the first time. Regards, Brian L.


                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                          From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                          Sent: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 9:27 pm
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Always a good article for vintage railroading

                                                                                                          Brian L,
                                                                                                                     I for one had never read this particular story/interview. While I know some of the facts this is great since it comes "right from the horses mouth"  I have had correspondence with Bernie Paul over the years and want to see if the letters he sent me match what Nate Polk recollects. Other lesser know people and companies will fill in a lot of blanks.  I had started to read it off the computer but decided to print out the entire interview. I was just getting to the Aristo part and have to go finish that now.
                                                                                                                   I think this is great. Never knew it was out there. Thanks a lot for posting it.
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                          From: bslook@...
                                                                                                          Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 6:42 PM
                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Always a good article for vintage railroading

                                                                                                          Hi everyone, I'm sure most of you have read this series of articles, but I was re-reading it and thought I would pass it on in case someone in the group had not seen it.

                                                                                                          Brian L
                                                                                                          http://www.aristocr aft.com/articles /nat/nattca1. html
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8837 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/23/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: New One B&O blue 4-6-0
                                                                                                          Elongated holes in siderods usually means a driver out of quarter in relation to the other two to which the siderod connects.  Line them up and see if the crankpins  are all three in the same relative position.  If they are not, that will cause the hiccup you describe.  Some people elongate rod holes when they find a crankpin a little out of position.  Sometimes it will help but it will not help if they are too far out.  Sloppy bearings also can cause hiccup problems if it allows the gear to climb out of sync.

                                                                                                          Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                          =====================================================

                                                                                                          rrdeffinger@... wrote:

                                                                                                          Jim and others,
                                                                                                          I've been working on a New One B&O blue 4-6-0,  but it looks like the side rodes  both have an elongated hole for the last driver. I don't think it had much, if any, run time because the drivers hit the bottom of the walk ways and the middle driver's spokes on the insulated side aren't all the way in the rim. Didn't try to fix that, don't think it can be fixed. They are in gauge.  I had an extra frame so I filed away the frame so the middle driver would turn and raised the boiler just a little so the drivers wouldn't rub the walkway. But it still has the "Hickcups" if I connect the last driver.
                                                                                                          Does the one you have, have the elongated holes in the siderodes for the last driver?
                                                                                                          The siderod screws have been filed down too, they bearly cover the holes. And all the drivers are a little sloppy in their slots, wobbling up and down when powered up on a test stand with the drivers not touching anything.
                                                                                                          Anyone else have this problem with this engine?
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                          Jim, I noticed your New One 4-4-2 needs an airpump. Do you have the one for it?
                                                                                                          Bob D.
                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                          CC: watermaj@comcast. net
                                                                                                          From: jimheck@losch. net
                                                                                                          Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:41:45 -0500
                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 4-4-2 vs New One 4-4-2

                                                                                                              I'm sending these two pictures to help explain a little discussion that went on with my good friend Gerold E, from across the pond. It concerned a possibly bit of confusion I may have caused. These pictures might help those members better understand what we were talking about.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                    The first picture is a Rivarossi 4-4-2 Atlantic. It was made roughly around 1952-1955. It was sold by Polk's Hobby and listed in his catalogs. This engine was produced earlier then Rivarossi American style engines that were sold under the AHM/Rivarossi name. These started to appear around 1966 in places like Woolworth's and other so called 5&10 cent stores.
                                                                                                              It is a "copy" of a Southern Pacific style Atlantic. It is made of a heavy plastic, both Engine and Tender, with Bakelite probably being the easiest name to describe it. It ran very good and had a motor / drive in the engine that was different from later AHM / RIvarossi steam.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                    The second picture is of the all metal (cast zamac?) 4-4-2 Atlantic that was made by New One in Japan and sold by both Polk Hobbies under his Aristo Craft name and by HOTCO / General Hobbies Corporation of Philadelphia which later became known as AHM. This engine had a lot of cracking and disintegrating (what I call zinc pest). This engine made roughly around 1958-1960. It had many railroad names printed on the tender. Like a number of New One engines not the best of runners.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                    Hope this will help to distinguish two entirely different engines by two entirely different companies. Any one feeling I made a mistake let me know. Not the best at typing or proof reading
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                             Jim H
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           



                                                                                                          It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. Get your account now.
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8838 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/23/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
                                                                                                          Brian L,
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                              As I said last email I was enjoying reading the Nate Polk commentary. I was especially looking forward to reading about Polk, his brand Aristo Craft and New One. I was a little surprised that when he mentioned Bernie Paul as President of AHM he did not say anything about Mr. Paul being in charge of GHC /General Hobbies Corporation (which was the forerunner of AHM), selling New One items at the same time under the HOTCO (HO Train Company).
                                                                                                               The reason I know this was because of an article I wrote for our HOSC&H-SIG newsletter "The Reporting Mark" called    A GG-1 Odyssey , Fact or Fiction.     I had become interested in a Japanese copy (extremely close) of the Penn Line GG-1. While there had been some advertisement in train magazines like MR and RMC it seemed like most people did not know about it. I started checking into it. I wrote a letter to Mr. Bernard Paul, President Of International Hobbies Corporation ( the new name for AHM), the beginning of March 1999 seeking information on that GG-1. Here are a couple of his replies to my questions dated March 24, 1999.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                1-   The GG-1 you referred to as HOTCO, it was one of our (GHC) first attempts to import product from Japan. You are right ,it was made by New One.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                2-   HOTCO was the abbreviation for the HO train Company
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                3-   The first New One / HOTCO GG-1 came into the U.S. in 1958
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                4-    We then had Rivarossi make for us the GG-1, which was of much better quality then the New One which was sold under the AHM name by that time.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                   I just thought it odd why Nat Polk made no reference about Bernie Paul importing items at the same time from the same Japanese company and selling them under a different brand, GHC, even though he made other references to Mr.Paul.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                      Hope I made no typing errors.                                                           Jim H
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                          From: bslook@...
                                                                                                          Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:31 AM
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Always a good article for vintage railroading

                                                                                                          Hi Jim, I am glad you liked the article, I certainly did, when I read it for the first time. Regards, Brian L.


                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                          From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                          Sent: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 9:27 pm
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Always a good article for vintage railroading

                                                                                                          Brian L,
                                                                                                                     I for one had never read this particular story/interview. While I know some of the facts this is great since it comes "right from the horses mouth"  I have had correspondence with Bernie Paul over the years and want to see if the letters he sent me match what Nate Polk recollects. Other lesser know people and companies will fill in a lot of blanks.  I had started to read it off the computer but decided to print out the entire interview. I was just getting to the Aristo part and have to go finish that now.
                                                                                                                   I think this is great. Never knew it was out there. Thanks a lot for posting it.
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                          From: bslook@...
                                                                                                          Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 6:42 PM
                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Always a good article for vintage railroading

                                                                                                          Hi everyone, I'm sure most of you have read this series of articles, but I was re-reading it and thought I would pass it on in case someone in the group had not seen it.

                                                                                                          Brian L
                                                                                                          http://www.aristocr aft.com/articles /nat/nattca1. html

                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8839 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 2/23/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: New One B&O blue 4-6-0
                                                                                                          Jim Heckard wrote:
                                                                                                          > Bob D,
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > The B&O Blue 4-6-0 by New One I have is mint in a box. It is
                                                                                                          > totally mint as the bell is still in the plastic bag and the little
                                                                                                          > gel packet for moisture is in the box too. I don't think this engine
                                                                                                          > has ever been run. I don't think it was even. "lifted out" of the red
                                                                                                          > velvet material it sits in. I will try to look at the last driver to
                                                                                                          > see if elongated but can't guarantee what I can see. As for rubbing
                                                                                                          > the walkway I can't help as I said engine never run. Sorry.
                                                                                                          > As for my New One 4-4-2 missing the airpump I will have to check
                                                                                                          > it and against picture of the model. I'm not much into the "real
                                                                                                          > thing" so perhaps you can tell me which side and where this airpump
                                                                                                          > should be located.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Jim H
                                                                                                          Jim, Bob ,
                                                                                                          checked my B&O Royal Blue one minute ago, she runs reasonably well ,
                                                                                                          has a slight wobble ; and the siderods have definitely elongated slots
                                                                                                          for the last crankpin.

                                                                                                          Gerold
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8840 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 2/23/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
                                                                                                          H Jim, you are right, it is odd that he didn't go further into the General Hobbies line, but he seemed to gloss over many brands and importers overall. I guess if he went in depth on each brand, it would have been a 30 part interview. LOL

                                                                                                          I don't recall where, but I remember seeing what I thought was a Penn Line GG-1 die cast model, but it was marked Japan. I don't want to rely on my memory, since it may have been something I saw at a show or it may have been somewhere else. I know that this discussion has been brought up on this group before, so I will need to go back through my books to see if I can find any further information.

                                                                                                          Regards, Brian


                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                          From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                          Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 1:37 pm
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Always a good article for vintage railroading

                                                                                                          Brian L,
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                              As I said last email I was enjoying reading the Nate Polk commentary. I was especially looking forward to reading about Polk, his brand Aristo Craft and New One. I was a little surprised that when he mentioned Bernie Paul as President of AHM he did not say anything about Mr. Paul being in charge of GHC /General Hobbies Corporation (which was the forerunner of AHM), selling New One items at the same time under the HOTCO (HO Train Company).
                                                                                                               The reason I know this was because of an article I wrote for our HOSC&H-SIG newsletter "The Reporting Mark" called    A GG-1 Odyssey , Fact or Fiction.     I had become interested in a Japanese copy (extremely close) of the Penn Line GG-1. While there had been some advertisement in train magazines like MR and RMC it seemed like most people did not know about it. I started checking into it. I wrote a letter to Mr. Bernard Paul, President Of International Hobbies Corporation ( the new name for AHM), the beginning of March 1999 seeking information on that GG-1. Here are a couple of his replies to my questions dated March 24, 1999.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                1-   The GG-1 you referred to as HOTCO, it was one of our (GHC) first attempts to import product from Japan. You are right ,it was made by New One.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                2-   HOTCO was the abbreviation for the HO train Company
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                3-   The first New One / HOTCO GG-1 came into the U.S. in 1958
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                4-    We then had Rivarossi make for us the GG-1, which was of much better quality then the New One which was sold under the AHM name by that time.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                   I just thought it odd why Nat Polk made no reference about Bernie Paul importing items at the same time from the same Japanese company and selling them under a different brand, GHC, even though he made other references to Mr.Paul.
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                      Hope I made no typing errors.                                                           Jim H
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                          From: bslook@...
                                                                                                          Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:31 AM
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Always a good article for vintage railroading

                                                                                                          Hi Jim, I am glad you liked the article, I certainly did, when I read it for the first time. Regards, Brian L.


                                                                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                          From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                          Sent: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 9:27 pm
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Always a good article for vintage railroading

                                                                                                          Brian L,
                                                                                                                     I for one had never read this particular story/interview. While I know some of the facts this is great since it comes "right from the horses mouth"  I have had correspondence with Bernie Paul over the years and want to see if the letters he sent me match what Nate Polk recollects. Other lesser know people and companies will fill in a lot of blanks.  I had started to read it off the computer but decided to print out the entire interview. I was just getting to the Aristo part and have to go finish that now.
                                                                                                                   I think this is great. Never knew it was out there. Thanks a lot for posting it.
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                          From: bslook@...
                                                                                                          Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 6:42 PM
                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Always a good article for vintage railroading

                                                                                                          Hi everyone, I'm sure most of you have read this series of articles, but I was re-reading it and thought I would pass it on in case someone in the group had not seen it.

                                                                                                          Brian L
                                                                                                          http://www.aristocr aft.com/articles /nat/nattca1. html
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8841 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/23/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
                                                                                                          I added this to the "links" list on the group home page.

                                                                                                          Don

                                                                                                          Don Dellmann
                                                                                                          don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                          http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                          http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                          Owner
                                                                                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery


                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                          From: <bslook@...>
                                                                                                          To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                          Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 5:42 PM
                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Always a good article for vintage railroading


                                                                                                          > Hi everyone, I'm sure most of you have read this series of articles, but I
                                                                                                          > was re-reading it and thought I would pass it on in case someone in the
                                                                                                          > group had not seen it.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Brian L
                                                                                                          > http://www.aristocraft.com/articles/nat/nattca1.html
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8842 From: oljoeoh Date: 2/24/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
                                                                                                          Jim,
                                                                                                          I had one of those imported GG1's as well as the Penn Line
                                                                                                          version. The import had a decent paint job but that is
                                                                                                          the end of the good comparison with the Penn Line.
                                                                                                          The one I had was indeed made in Japan and attempted
                                                                                                          to copy the Penn Line offering and DID NOT succeed.
                                                                                                          It ran poorly, the motor ran HOT, both of the crummy
                                                                                                          NMRA couplers broke off pulling the 22 car string of
                                                                                                          cars that the Penn Line pulled easily. It bucked and derailed
                                                                                                          just about anywhere on my layout - even made a trip
                                                                                                          to the floor once. As I recall the price was $19.95.
                                                                                                          It was one of the few locos I bought that I threw in
                                                                                                          the trash can. It was not a good buy. Note that I
                                                                                                          prided myself on having smooth running engines. The
                                                                                                          import defied all attempts to make it run better.
                                                                                                          Joe O'Loughlin

                                                                                                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bslook@... wrote:
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > H Jim, you are right, it is odd that he didn't go further into the
                                                                                                          General Hobbies line, but he seemed to gloss over many brands and
                                                                                                          importers overall. I guess if he went in depth on each brand, it would
                                                                                                          have been a 30 part interview. LOL
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > I don't recall where, but I remember seeing what I thought was a
                                                                                                          Penn Line GG-1 die cast model, but it was marked Japan. I don't want
                                                                                                          to rely on my memory, since it may have been something I saw at a show
                                                                                                          or it may have been somewhere else. I know that this discussion has
                                                                                                          been brought up on this group before, so I will need to go back
                                                                                                          through my books to see if I can find any further information.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Regards, Brian
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                          > From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                          > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                          > Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 1:37 pm
                                                                                                          > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Always a good article for vintage railroading
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Brian L,
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ?
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ??? As I said last email I was enjoying reading the Nate Polk
                                                                                                          commentary. I was especially looking forward to reading about Polk,
                                                                                                          his brand Aristo Craft and New One. I was a little surprised that when
                                                                                                          he mentioned Bernie Paul as President of AHM he did not say anything
                                                                                                          about?Mr. Paul being in charge of GHC /General Hobbies
                                                                                                          Corporation?(which was the forerunner of AHM), selling New One items
                                                                                                          at the same time under the HOTCO (HO Train Company).
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ???? The reason?I know this was because of an article I wrote for
                                                                                                          our HOSC&H-SIG newsletter "The Reporting Mark" called??? A GG-1
                                                                                                          Odyssey , Fact or Fiction.???? I had become interested in a
                                                                                                          Japanese?copy (extremely close) of the Penn Line GG-1. While there had
                                                                                                          been some advertisement in train magazines like MR and RMC it seemed
                                                                                                          like most people did not?know about it. I started checking into it. I
                                                                                                          wrote a letter to Mr. Bernard Paul, President Of International Hobbies
                                                                                                          Corporation ( the new name for AHM),?the beginning of March 1999
                                                                                                          seeking information on that GG-1. Here are a couple of his replies to
                                                                                                          my questions dated March 24, 1999.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ?
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ????? 1-?? The GG-1 you referred to as HOTCO, it was one of our
                                                                                                          (GHC) first attempts to import product from Japan. You are right ,it
                                                                                                          was made by New One.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ?
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ????? 2-?? HOTCO was the abbreviation for the HO train Company
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ?
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ??????3-?? The first New One / HOTCO GG-1 came into the U.S. in 1958
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ?
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ??????4-??? We then had Rivarossi make for us the GG-1, which was of
                                                                                                          much better quality then the New One which was sold under the AHM name
                                                                                                          by that time.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ?
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ???????? I?just thought it odd?why Nat Polk made no reference about
                                                                                                          Bernie Paul importing items at the same time from the same Japanese
                                                                                                          company and selling them under a different brand, GHC, even though he
                                                                                                          made other references to Mr.Paul.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ?
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ????????????Hope I made no typing
                                                                                                          errors.?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Jim H
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ?
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ?
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ?
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ?
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ?
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ?
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ?
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > From: bslook@...
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:31 AM
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Always a good article for vintage railroading
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Hi Jim, I am glad you liked the article, I certainly did, when I
                                                                                                          read it for the first time. Regards, Brian L.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                          > From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                          > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                          > Sent: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 9:27 pm
                                                                                                          > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Always a good article for vintage railroading
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Brian L,
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ?????????? I for one had never read this particular story/interview.
                                                                                                          While I know some of the facts this is great since it comes "right
                                                                                                          from the horses mouth"??I have had correspondence with Bernie Paul
                                                                                                          over the years and want to see if the letters he sent me match what
                                                                                                          Nate Polk recollects. Other lesser know people and companies will fill
                                                                                                          in a lot of blanks. ?I had started to read it off the computer but
                                                                                                          decided to print out the entire interview. I was just getting to the
                                                                                                          Aristo part and have to go finish that now.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ?????????I think this is great. Never knew it was out there. Thanks
                                                                                                          a lot for posting it.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
                                                                                                          Jim H
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > From: bslook@...
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 6:42 PM
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Subject: [vintageHO] Always a good article for vintage railroading
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Hi everyone, I'm sure most of you have read this series of articles,
                                                                                                          but I was re-reading it and thought I would pass it on in case someone
                                                                                                          in the group had not seen it.
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Brian L
                                                                                                          > http://www.aristocraft.com/articles/nat/nattca1.html
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web.
                                                                                                          Get the Radio Toolbar!
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          > Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web.
                                                                                                          Get the Radio Toolbar!
                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8843 From: Jim Heckard Date: 2/24/2009
                                                                                                          Subject: .HOTCO/GHC GG-1
                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                            Joe O,
                                                                                                                    Although someone mentioned that there had been prior discussions about the HOTCO/GHC GG-1 I am a firm believer in a "picture worth a thousand words". Also there are always new members who might like to see these, even though if they went back over previous post they could read what was stated then. If no interest just disregard.
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                    Picture No. 1 is the HOTCO/GHC GG-1 by New One with the original box. I believe it only came in Tuscan
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                    Picture No. 2  is a HOTCO/GHC GG-1 that I repainted in the glossy black paint and gold decals. I always liked this look that  I have heard called "Black Jack"  Under this is a Penn Line GG-1 for comparison.
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                 There is not much difference outside. I do notice the platforms over the leading/trailing trucks stick out about a 1/2" from the body on the HOTCO but on the Penn Line there are even with the body. Suggest changes, for what ever reason in the length of the HOTCO frame and/or drive . There are some differences inside both but don't feel like taking apart to list them.
                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8844 From: oljoeoh Date: 2/24/2009
                                                                                                            Subject: Re: .HOTCO/GHC GG-1
                                                                                                            Jim H....
                                                                                                            That Tuscan is indeed the item I had. I particularly remember those
                                                                                                            brass rims on the drivers and that red box. After I got my hands
                                                                                                            on the thing the hobby shop I worked in returned the other 3
                                                                                                            examples they had based on what I told them about the dog. Seems
                                                                                                            to me I remember it was pretty noisy too.
                                                                                                            Thanks for the reminder pics.
                                                                                                            Joe O'Loughlin


                                                                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > Joe O,
                                                                                                            > Although someone mentioned that there had been prior
                                                                                                            discussions about the HOTCO/GHC GG-1 I am a firm believer in a
                                                                                                            "picture worth a thousand words". Also there are always new members
                                                                                                            who might like to see these, even though if they went back over
                                                                                                            previous post they could read what was stated then. If no interest
                                                                                                            just disregard.
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > Picture No. 1 is the HOTCO/GHC GG-1 by New One with the
                                                                                                            original box. I believe it only came in Tuscan
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > Picture No. 2 is a HOTCO/GHC GG-1 that I repainted in the
                                                                                                            glossy black paint and gold decals. I always liked this look that I
                                                                                                            have heard called "Black Jack" Under this is a Penn Line GG-1 for
                                                                                                            comparison.
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > There is not much difference outside. I do notice the platforms
                                                                                                            over the leading/trailing trucks stick out about a 1/2" from the body
                                                                                                            on the HOTCO but on the Penn Line there are even with the body.
                                                                                                            Suggest changes, for what ever reason in the length of the HOTCO frame
                                                                                                            and/or drive . There are some differences inside both but don't feel
                                                                                                            like taking apart to list them.
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8845 From: oljoeoh Date: 2/24/2009
                                                                                                            Subject: Re: .HOTCO/GHC GG-1
                                                                                                            I also remember removing the pantographs and insulators
                                                                                                            before I threw the thing out. The pantographs were
                                                                                                            very nicely done.
                                                                                                            Joe O'Loughlin

                                                                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > Joe O,
                                                                                                            > Although someone mentioned that there had been prior
                                                                                                            discussions about the HOTCO/GHC GG-1 I am a firm believer in a
                                                                                                            "picture worth a thousand words". Also there are always new members
                                                                                                            who might like to see these, even though if they went back over
                                                                                                            previous post they could read what was stated then. If no interest
                                                                                                            just disregard.
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > Picture No. 1 is the HOTCO/GHC GG-1 by New One with the
                                                                                                            original box. I believe it only came in Tuscan
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > Picture No. 2 is a HOTCO/GHC GG-1 that I repainted in the
                                                                                                            glossy black paint and gold decals. I always liked this look that I
                                                                                                            have heard called "Black Jack" Under this is a Penn Line GG-1 for
                                                                                                            comparison.
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > There is not much difference outside. I do notice the platforms
                                                                                                            over the leading/trailing trucks stick out about a 1/2" from the body
                                                                                                            on the HOTCO but on the Penn Line there are even with the body.
                                                                                                            Suggest changes, for what ever reason in the length of the HOTCO frame
                                                                                                            and/or drive . There are some differences inside both but don't feel
                                                                                                            like taking apart to list them.
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8846 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 2/24/2009
                                                                                                            Subject: Aristo Craft/:Polks
                                                                                                            In the late 60's and early 70's while I was stationed in New York City,
                                                                                                            I worked part time at AHC, Model Railroad Equipment Corp., and at
                                                                                                            Polks. Got to know Irv, Nat, and Lewis, and found them to be classy
                                                                                                            gentlemen.

                                                                                                            thanks for the memories.

                                                                                                            Frank Bongiovanni
                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8847 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 2/24/2009
                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
                                                                                                            In Nat's case, "classy" is an understatement. I saw and talked with him at a number of shows: IPMS, MR conventions, and even the MRIA/RICHTA(sp?) shows.
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                            I knew him as a supplier of plastic model, doll-house, and model RR kits, parts, and everything. Anything he didn't know wasn't worth knowing! Gave great deals, too(speaking as someone in the business, anyway).
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                            BTW, about AHC - one thing they had when I was a kid was a smallish depressed-center flat car. Never got the dollar or so together to order one(from their ads in MR and RMC).
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                            Have you any idea who made that and/or if they are available to-day? Was sold "less t/c." I think it was one piece cast metal of some sort. To-day, I have "something" like that pisked up at a train show and am wondering if it's the sdame old one I drooled over as a boy.
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                            Thanks in advance and Happy Modeling, all!
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                            Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

                                                                                                            --- On Tue, 2/24/09, bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                            From: bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@...>
                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Aristo Craft/:Polks
                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                            Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 1:37 PM

                                                                                                            In the late 60's and early 70's while I was stationed in New York City, 
I worked part time at AHC, Model Railroad Equipment Corp., and at 
Polks.  Got to know Irv, Nat, and Lewis, and found them to be classy 
gentlemen.  

thanks for the memories. 

Frank Bongiovanni

                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8848 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 2/24/2009
                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
                                                                                                            I remember those places, particularly MRREC and Polk's. I envy you! If you are ever so inclined, feel free to relate stories and experiences. If you ever worked there over the Christmas holidays, you must have many stories.
                                                                                                            Walter



                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                            From: "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@...>
                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 2:37:43 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown
                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Aristo Craft/:Polks

                                                                                                            In the late 60's and early 70's while I was stationed in New York City,
                                                                                                            I worked part time at AHC, Model Railroad Equipment Corp., and at
                                                                                                            Polks. Got to know Irv, Nat, and Lewis, and found them to be classy
                                                                                                            gentlemen.

                                                                                                            thanks for the memories.

                                                                                                            Frank Bongiovanni
                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8849 From: Jim Waterman Date: 2/24/2009
                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
                                                                                                            Great article.
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                            I can remember meeting many of these folks through my father's business, Trackside Specialties.
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                            This article does not have a date on it, I can't imaging that Nat Polk is still around - last time I saw him was at a TCA meet in Wayne in about 1973. By that time he and his family were hauling a lot of junk to the train meets, in big boxes you had to pick through. Also visited their NY store a few times in the late 60's/early 70's.
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                            The early railroad entrepreneurs were a fun and interesting group of folks.
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                            Jim Waterman
                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8850 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 2/24/2009
                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
                                                                                                            Nat died a few years ago - hobby's great loss... R.I.P., Nat!

                                                                                                            --- On Tue, 2/24/09, Jim Waterman <Watermaj@...> wrote:
                                                                                                            From: Jim Waterman <Watermaj@...>
                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                            Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 8:07 PM

                                                                                                            Great article.
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                            I can remember meeting many of these folks through my father's business, Trackside Specialties.
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                            This article does not have a date on it, I can't imaging that Nat Polk is still around - last time I saw him was at a TCA meet in Wayne in about 1973. By that time he and his family were hauling a lot of junk to the train meets, in big boxes you had to pick through. Also visited their NY store a few times in the late 60's/early 70's.
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                            The early railroad entrepreneurs were a fun and interesting group of folks.
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                            Jim Waterman
                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8851 From: erieberk Date: 2/25/2009
                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
                                                                                                            General Models Corp made that depressed center flat car. It was
                                                                                                            about a 40 footer. Devore comes to mind to, but before saying they
                                                                                                            produced one, I'd have to check my collection. I don't know what
                                                                                                            you've found at a train show recently, but that would be about the
                                                                                                            only place you'd find something like that today, except perhaps on
                                                                                                            Ebay. I doubt anyone makes any H0 rolling stock models in cast metal
                                                                                                            today. Ray W.



                                                                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote:
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > In Nat's case, "classy" is an understatement. I saw and talked with
                                                                                                            him at a number of shows: IPMS, MR conventions, and even the
                                                                                                            MRIA/RICHTA(sp?) shows.
                                                                                                            >  
                                                                                                            > I knew him as a supplier of plastic model, doll-house, and model RR
                                                                                                            kits, parts, and everything. Anything he didn't know wasn't worth
                                                                                                            knowing! Gave great deals, too(speaking as someone in the business,
                                                                                                            anyway).
                                                                                                            >  
                                                                                                            > BTW, about AHC - one thing they had when I was a kid was a smallish
                                                                                                            depressed-center flat car. Never got the dollar or so together to
                                                                                                            order one(from their ads in MR and RMC).
                                                                                                            >  
                                                                                                            > Have you any idea who made that and/or if they are available to-
                                                                                                            day? Was sold "less t/c." I think it was one piece cast metal of some
                                                                                                            sort. To-day, I have "something" like that pisked up at a train show
                                                                                                            and am wondering if it's the sdame old one I drooled over as a boy.
                                                                                                            >  
                                                                                                            > Thanks in advance and Happy Modeling, all!
                                                                                                            >  
                                                                                                            > Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > --- On Tue, 2/24/09, bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > From: bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@...>
                                                                                                            > Subject: [vintageHO] Aristo Craft/:Polks
                                                                                                            > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                            > Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 1:37 PM
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > In the late 60's and early 70's while I was stationed in New York
                                                                                                            City,
                                                                                                            > I worked part time at AHC, Model Railroad Equipment Corp., and at
                                                                                                            > Polks. Got to know Irv, Nat, and Lewis, and found them to be
                                                                                                            classy
                                                                                                            > gentlemen.
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > thanks for the memories.
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > Frank Bongiovanni
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8852 From: erieberk Date: 2/25/2009
                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
                                                                                                            Great article, Brian -- a real interesting read. I don't recall
                                                                                                            reading this previously. If I did it must have been a good while back
                                                                                                            as I don't remember it. I read the first part right after you posted
                                                                                                            it, but will be printing the rest out to read at my leasure. Good info
                                                                                                            and history to have on hand anyway. Many thanks for the link. Ray
                                                                                                            Wetzel



                                                                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bslook@... wrote:
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > Hi everyone, I'm sure most of you have read this series of articles,
                                                                                                            but I was re-reading it and thought I would pass it on in case someone
                                                                                                            in the group had not seen it.
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > Brian L
                                                                                                            > http://www.aristocraft.com/articles/nat/nattca1.html
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8853 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 2/25/2009
                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
                                                                                                            Thanks. I came across it last evening - no manufacturer's marking whatsoever. Has what appears to be(almost certain on this) Varney trucks with something resembling a Rivarossi coupler adaptor to act like talgo, and the offset horn/hook coupler, wire grabs in poor condition and a badly bent brake staff with a wheel on it. Could be fixed up if/as/when I have time...intereting li'l piece.
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                            Fred

                                                                                                            --- On Wed, 2/25/09, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                            From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                            Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 8:41 AM

                                                                                                            General Models Corp made that depressed center flat car.  It was 
about a 40 footer.  Devore comes to mind to, but before saying they 
produced one, I'd have to check my collection.  I don't know what 
you've found at a train show recently, but that would be about the 
only place you'd find something like that today, except perhaps on 
Ebay.  I doubt anyone makes any H0 rolling stock models in cast metal 
today.  Ray W.



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote:
>
> In Nat's case, "classy" is an understatement. I saw and
talked with 
him at a number of shows: IPMS, MR conventions, and even the 
MRIA/RICHTA(sp?) shows.
>  
> I knew him as a supplier of plastic model, doll-house, and model RR 
kits, parts, and everything. Anything he didn't know wasn't worth 
knowing! Gave great deals, too(speaking as someone in the business, 
anyway).
>  
> BTW, about AHC - one thing they had when I was a kid was a smallish 
depressed-center flat car. Never got the dollar or so together to 
order one(from their ads in MR and RMC). 
>  
> Have you any idea who made that and/or if they are available to-
day? Was sold "less t/c." I think it was one piece cast metal of some

sort. To-day, I have "something" like that pisked up at a train show 
and am wondering if it's the sdame old one I drooled over as a boy.
>  
> Thanks in advance and Happy Modeling, all!
>  
> Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
> 
> --- On Tue, 2/24/09, bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@...> wrote:
> 
> From: bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@...>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Aristo Craft/:Polks
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 1:37 PM
> 
> In the late 60's and early 70's while I was stationed in New York 
City, 
> I worked part time at AHC, Model Railroad Equipment Corp., and at 
> Polks.  Got to know Irv, Nat, and Lewis, and found them to be 
classy 
> gentlemen.  
> 
> thanks for the memories. 
> 
> Frank Bongiovanni
>




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                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8854 From: Roger Aultman Date: 2/25/2009
                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
                                                                                                            I recall purchasing a cast depressed center flat car that Clover House was
                                                                                                            clossing out, seems to have ben a Devore.
                                                                                                            Roger Aultman



                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                            From: erieberk
                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:41 AM
                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks


                                                                                                            General Models Corp made that depressed center flat car. It was
                                                                                                            about a 40 footer. Devore comes to mind to, but before saying they
                                                                                                            produced one, I'd have to check my collection. I don't know what
                                                                                                            you've found at a train show recently, but that would be about the
                                                                                                            only place you'd find something like that today, except perhaps on
                                                                                                            Ebay. I doubt anyone makes any H0 rolling stock models in cast metal
                                                                                                            today. Ray W.
                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8855 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/25/2009
                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
                                                                                                            I don't recall Devore making a DC Flat car--I seem to recall that a lot of
                                                                                                            the castings Russ Clover was selling were from Cliff Line and/or Robico. I
                                                                                                            know that there were parts of a transformer load from those.

                                                                                                            A lot of these castings were found in "grab bag packages Russ would sell at
                                                                                                            PCR meets under the name "Fly-by-Night Industries"--with a picture of a
                                                                                                            villainous character on the label---claiming "no quality, no guarantee".

                                                                                                            When I was contest chairman I tried to get him to sponsor a contest for
                                                                                                            models built at least 50% from a Fly-By-Night bag--which also contained
                                                                                                            stripwood and other Clover House products. These bags often sold for crazy
                                                                                                            prices at the Coast Division Auctions. gj

                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                            From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...>
                                                                                                            To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 8:59 AM
                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks


                                                                                                            >I recall purchasing a cast depressed center flat car that Clover House was
                                                                                                            > clossing out, seems to have ben a Devore.
                                                                                                            > Roger Aultman
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                            > From: erieberk
                                                                                                            > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                            > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:41 AM
                                                                                                            > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > General Models Corp made that depressed center flat car. It was
                                                                                                            > about a 40 footer. Devore comes to mind to, but before saying they
                                                                                                            > produced one, I'd have to check my collection. I don't know what
                                                                                                            > you've found at a train show recently, but that would be about the
                                                                                                            > only place you'd find something like that today, except perhaps on
                                                                                                            > Ebay. I doubt anyone makes any H0 rolling stock models in cast metal
                                                                                                            > today. Ray W.
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            >


                                                                                                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                                                                            No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                            Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1970 - Release Date: 02/24/09
                                                                                                            13:35:00
                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8856 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/25/2009
                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Always a good article for vintage railroading
                                                                                                            The comment about the Japanese-production GG-1s running hot was also
                                                                                                            true of the original Penn Lines. For reasons that I never fathomed at
                                                                                                            the time, the Pittman motors in a matched pair that otherwise ran very
                                                                                                            well also respectively drew excessive amperage- about 2.7A as I
                                                                                                            recall. I still have these locomotives, but have neither tested nor
                                                                                                            really looked at them probably for at least 20 years.

                                                                                                            Denny


                                                                                                            Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                            Sacramento
                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8857 From: Roger Aultman Date: 2/25/2009
                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
                                                                                                            Glenn is correct my memory was faulty, it was Cliff Line.   Roger
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                             
                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                            From: Glenn476
                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 11:19 AM
                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks

                                                                                                            I don't recall Devore making a DC Flat car--I seem to recall that a lot of
                                                                                                            the castings Russ Clover was selling were from Cliff Line and/or Robico. I
                                                                                                            know that there were parts of a transformer load from those.

                                                                                                            A lot of these castings were found in "grab bag packages Russ would sell at
                                                                                                            PCR meets under the name "Fly-by-Night Industries"- -with a picture of a
                                                                                                            villainous character on the label---claiming "no quality, no guarantee".

                                                                                                            When I was contest chairman I tried to get him to sponsor a contest for
                                                                                                            models built at least 50% from a Fly-By-Night bag--which also contained
                                                                                                            stripwood and other Clover House products. These bags often sold for crazy
                                                                                                            prices at the Coast Division Auctions. gj

                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                            From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...>
                                                                                                            To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 8:59 AM
                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks

                                                                                                            >I recall purchasing a cast depressed center flat car that Clover House was
                                                                                                            > clossing out, seems to have ben a Devore.
                                                                                                            > Roger Aultman
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                            > From: erieberk
                                                                                                            > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                            > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 7:41 AM
                                                                                                            > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > General Models Corp made that depressed center flat car. It was
                                                                                                            > about a 40 footer. Devore comes to mind to, but before saying they
                                                                                                            > produced one, I'd have to check my collection. I don't know what
                                                                                                            > you've found at a train show recently, but that would be about the
                                                                                                            > only place you'd find something like that today, except perhaps on
                                                                                                            > Ebay. I doubt anyone makes any H0 rolling stock models in cast metal
                                                                                                            > today. Ray W.
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                            >

                                                                                                            ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                                                                                            No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                            Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1970 - Release Date: 02/24/09
                                                                                                            13:35:00
                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 8858 From: Roger Aultman Date: 2/25/2009
                                                                                                            Subject: !!! FOUND IT
                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                              It took awhile but I found the Cliff Line kit, if it were not for the discussions on the group I probablhy would forget where everything is.   Roger Aultman
                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8859 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/25/2009
                                                                                                              Subject: Re: !!! FOUND IT
                                                                                                              Now if someone knows who "Cliff" was--  I recall some of the castings for that transformer load--the body of it was a shaped wood block with a corrugated metal wrapper--castings for the front, base and top.  They were found in "FBN bags".  gj
                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 11:33 AM
                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] !!! FOUND IT

                                                                                                              It took awhile but I found the Cliff Line kit, if it were not for the discussions on the group I probablhy would forget where everything is.   Roger Aultman


                                                                                                              No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                              Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 06:40:00
                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8860 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 2/25/2009
                                                                                                              Subject: Re: !!! FOUND IT
                                                                                                              Whoever he was, he was also the purveyor of the remarkable [IMHO] Micro-Motive trucks.
                                                                                                              Walter



                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                              From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:51:02 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown
                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] !!! FOUND IT

                                                                                                              Now if someone knows who "Cliff" was--  I recall some of the castings for that transformer load--the body of it was a shaped wood block with a corrugated metal wrapper--castings for the front, base and top.  They were found in "FBN bags".  gj
                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 11:33 AM
                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] !!! FOUND IT

                                                                                                              It took awhile but I found the Cliff Line kit, if it were not for the discussions on the group I probablhy would forget where everything is.   Roger Aultman


                                                                                                              No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                              Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date: 02/25/09 06:40:00
                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8861 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/25/2009
                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
                                                                                                              Another one I saw advertised often in the early 60's was by "Authenticast"

                                                                                                              Don

                                                                                                              Don Dellmann
                                                                                                              don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                              Owner
                                                                                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                              From: "Fred Hultberg" <fhultberg@...>
                                                                                                              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 9:48 AM
                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks


                                                                                                              Thanks. I came across it last evening - no manufacturer's marking
                                                                                                              whatsoever. Has what appears to be(almost certain on this) Varney trucks
                                                                                                              with something resembling a Rivarossi coupler adaptor to act like talgo, and
                                                                                                              the offset horn/hook coupler, wire grabs in poor condition and a badly bent
                                                                                                              brake staff with a wheel on it. Could be fixed up if/as/when I have
                                                                                                              time...intereting li'l piece.

                                                                                                              Fred

                                                                                                              --- On Wed, 2/25/09, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote:

                                                                                                              From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks
                                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                              Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 8:41 AM

                                                                                                              General Models Corp made that depressed center flat car. It was
                                                                                                              about a 40 footer. Devore comes to mind to, but before saying they
                                                                                                              produced one, I'd have to check my collection. I don't know what
                                                                                                              you've found at a train show recently, but that would be about the
                                                                                                              only place you'd find something like that today, except perhaps on
                                                                                                              Ebay. I doubt anyone makes any H0 rolling stock models in cast metal
                                                                                                              today. Ray W.



                                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote:
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > In Nat's case, "classy" is an understatement. I saw and
                                                                                                              talked with
                                                                                                              him at a number of shows: IPMS, MR conventions, and even the
                                                                                                              MRIA/RICHTA(sp?) shows.
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > I knew him as a supplier of plastic model, doll-house, and model RR
                                                                                                              kits, parts, and everything. Anything he didn't know wasn't worth
                                                                                                              knowing! Gave great deals, too(speaking as someone in the business,
                                                                                                              anyway).
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > BTW, about AHC - one thing they had when I was a kid was a smallish
                                                                                                              depressed-center flat car. Never got the dollar or so together to
                                                                                                              order one(from their ads in MR and RMC).
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > Have you any idea who made that and/or if they are available to-
                                                                                                              day? Was sold "less t/c." I think it was one piece cast metal of some

                                                                                                              sort. To-day, I have "something" like that pisked up at a train show
                                                                                                              and am wondering if it's the sdame old one I drooled over as a boy.
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > Thanks in advance and Happy Modeling, all!
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > --- On Tue, 2/24/09, bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > From: bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@...>
                                                                                                              > Subject: [vintageHO] Aristo Craft/:Polks
                                                                                                              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                              > Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 1:37 PM
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > In the late 60's and early 70's while I was stationed in New York
                                                                                                              City,
                                                                                                              > I worked part time at AHC, Model Railroad Equipment Corp., and at
                                                                                                              > Polks. Got to know Irv, Nat, and Lewis, and found them to be
                                                                                                              classy
                                                                                                              > gentlemen.
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > thanks for the memories.
                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                              > Frank Bongiovanni
                                                                                                              >




                                                                                                              ------------------------------------

                                                                                                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8862 From: Jay Matz Date: 2/25/2009
                                                                                                              Subject: Silver Streak tank Car
                                                                                                              Group
                                                                                                              I picked up a Silver Streak 8000 Gal single dome tank Car Kit.
                                                                                                              There is no tank wrapper with the kit. Does any one have a wrapper
                                                                                                              they can copy and send to me?
                                                                                                              Jay
                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8863 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 2/26/2009
                                                                                                              Subject: Aristo Craft/:Polks
                                                                                                              I'm pleasantly surprised at the response I got. Walt, sorry for the
                                                                                                              delay, but I've been trying to think if I had any stories worth
                                                                                                              repeating. December at Model Railroad Equipment Corp was
                                                                                                              fascinating, and incredibly busy. For that one month, the amount of
                                                                                                              money coming in there (at 1969 prices)was incredible. The inventory
                                                                                                              of brass and classic Lionel was just amazing to me as a young person
                                                                                                              relatively new to the hobby. IIRC the $4,000 Carmen Webster was
                                                                                                              asking for a State set was more than I made in a year in the Navy.
                                                                                                              But at all three stores the things that stuck in my mind were how
                                                                                                              hard the hobby business is on the other side of the counter, and how
                                                                                                              difficult 10% of the customers/hobbyists made life.

                                                                                                              Until you've done it, and I'm talking about what was available in the
                                                                                                              late 1960's, you don't know what it's like to take inventory of, say,
                                                                                                              Athearn, or to fill a large order of stripwood, or the parts for the
                                                                                                              valve gear for a Mantua Mike. (it's worse now; look at the Walthers
                                                                                                              catalog) Yes, I enjoyed it. Very glad I didn't have to make a living
                                                                                                              at it--the Navy supported me and my wife and child adequately, so my
                                                                                                              part time job money went into buying stuff at employee discount. It
                                                                                                              made me very sympathetic to people in the business at the retail
                                                                                                              level, and explained why many of them were kind of crabby.

                                                                                                              AHC I worked the mail order department, and one of the problems was
                                                                                                              back orders. I learned stuff like because of an embargo (I hope I'm
                                                                                                              remembering this correctly)for 6 months AHC couldn't get any of their
                                                                                                              house brand cork roadbed into the country, and since ads had to go in
                                                                                                              three months ahead of time, there was no practical way to pull the
                                                                                                              cork from the ad as they had no idea when the embargo would be lifted.

                                                                                                              Fascintating things, like when Athearn hadn't made their rotary
                                                                                                              snowplows for over a year, and the entire model railroad world was
                                                                                                              clamoring for them, and I found half a dozen in Polk's enormous
                                                                                                              warehouse in New Jersey. Bought one myself, of course, and the 5 I
                                                                                                              took back to Manhattan lasted about a day.

                                                                                                              In AHC's basement I found 6 Ambroid S gauge kits, that Bernie Winston
                                                                                                              let me buy to resell at train shows. I made a profit, but it took me
                                                                                                              over a year. Ambroid S gauge is one of those things that when you
                                                                                                              find the guy who wants it, he'll tear his pocket getting out the
                                                                                                              money; but first, you have to find that guy. (S scale was really
                                                                                                              dead at that time, but has revived very nicely, at least here in
                                                                                                              Cleveland).

                                                                                                              Learned a lot. Met some very smart and very nice people. Jim
                                                                                                              Waterman, I lightly remember your father Vince, and he was always
                                                                                                              nice to me.

                                                                                                              Deja Vu: I remember Irv Polk telling us that in about September 1970
                                                                                                              (?)that they would normally taking out loans to buy merchandise for
                                                                                                              Christmas, but that because of the credit situation they wouldn't be
                                                                                                              able to borrow as much as usual.

                                                                                                              Thanks again for the memories.

                                                                                                              Frank Bongiovanni
                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8864 From: Gerald Garteiser Date: 2/26/2009
                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Aristo Craft/:Polks

                                                                                                              Interesting stories!!  As the cliché goes, history repeats itself.  Thanks for sharing!  Jerry Garteiser

                                                                                                               

                                                                                                              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bongiovanni12001
                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 8:43 PM
                                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Aristo Craft/:Polks

                                                                                                               

                                                                                                              I'm pleasantly surprised at the response I got. Walt, sorry for the
                                                                                                              delay, but I've been trying to think if I had any stories worth
                                                                                                              repeating. December at Model Railroad Equipment Corp was
                                                                                                              fascinating, and incredibly busy. For that one month, the amount of
                                                                                                              money coming in there (at 1969 prices)was incredible. The inventory
                                                                                                              of brass and classic Lionel was just amazing to me as a young person
                                                                                                              relatively new to the hobby. IIRC the $4,000 Carmen Webster was
                                                                                                              asking for a State set was more than I made in a year in the Navy.
                                                                                                              But at all three stores the things that stuck in my mind were how
                                                                                                              hard the hobby business is on the other side of the counter, and how
                                                                                                              difficult 10% of the customers/hobbyists made life.

                                                                                                              Until you've done it, and I'm talking about what was available in the
                                                                                                              late 1960's, you don't know what it's like to take inventory of, say,
                                                                                                              Athearn, or to fill a large order of stripwood, or the parts for the
                                                                                                              valve gear for a Mantua Mike. (it's worse now; look at the Walthers
                                                                                                              catalog) Yes, I enjoyed it. Very glad I didn't have to make a living
                                                                                                              at it--the Navy supported me and my wife and child adequately, so my
                                                                                                              part time job money went into buying stuff at employee discount. It
                                                                                                              made me very sympathetic to people in the business at the retail
                                                                                                              level, and explained why many of them were kind of crabby.

                                                                                                              AHC I worked the mail order department, and one of the problems was
                                                                                                              back orders. I learned stuff like because of an embargo (I hope I'm
                                                                                                              remembering this correctly)for 6 months AHC couldn't get any of their
                                                                                                              house brand cork roadbed into the country, and since ads had to go in
                                                                                                              three months ahead of time, there was no practical way to pull the
                                                                                                              cork from the ad as they had no idea when the embargo would be lifted.

                                                                                                              Fascintating things, like when Athearn hadn't made their rotary
                                                                                                              snowplows for over a year, and the entire model railroad world was
                                                                                                              clamoring for them, and I found half a dozen in Polk's enormous
                                                                                                              warehouse in New Jersey. Bought one myself, of course, and the 5 I
                                                                                                              took back to Manhattan lasted about a day.

                                                                                                              In AHC's basement I found 6 Ambroid S gauge kits, that Bernie Winston
                                                                                                              let me buy to resell at train shows. I made a profit, but it took me
                                                                                                              over a year. Ambroid S gauge is one of those things that when you
                                                                                                              find the guy who wants it, he'll tear his pocket getting out the
                                                                                                              money; but first, you have to find that guy. (S scale was really
                                                                                                              dead at that time, but has revived very nicely, at least here in
                                                                                                              Cleveland).

                                                                                                              Learned a lot. Met some very smart and very nice people. Jim
                                                                                                              Waterman, I lightly remember your father Vince, and he was always
                                                                                                              nice to me.

                                                                                                              Deja Vu: I remember Irv Polk telling us that in about September 1970
                                                                                                              (?)that they would normally taking out loans to buy merchandise for
                                                                                                              Christmas, but that because of the credit situation they wouldn't be
                                                                                                              able to borrow as much as usual.

                                                                                                              Thanks again for the memories.

                                                                                                              Frank Bongiovanni
                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8865 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/27/2009
                                                                                                              Subject: End of an era
                                                                                                              This is probably old news for some of you, it's been a topic of conversation
                                                                                                              on some of the other lists for the last week or so, but one of the last of
                                                                                                              the "old time" clubs is gone.

                                                                                                              I'm sure most of you knew about the "Indianhead Lines" of the Milwaukee
                                                                                                              Model Railroad Engineers. They've been in existence since 1947, and since
                                                                                                              1977 have been building a layout in a back room in the Walthers warehouse.

                                                                                                              Over the years, as the layout got old, the members got older, they stopped
                                                                                                              attracting new members. People didn't want to run straight DC on a club
                                                                                                              layout, and the maintenance was getting to be a nightmare. They were down
                                                                                                              to just a few members, and Phil Walthers decided they weren't contributing
                                                                                                              to this month's bottom line, so he's throwing them out.

                                                                                                              Newspaper story from the FRONT PAGE of last Friday's Milwaukee Journal

                                                                                                              http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/39891957.html

                                                                                                              My own videos of the last two sessions, (last week, the one the article was
                                                                                                              about, and last night when they had the biggest crowd they've ever had for
                                                                                                              an "open house", mainly because of the newspaper article.)

                                                                                                              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction

                                                                                                              My still shots from the last two sessions

                                                                                                              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/sets/72157614173045775/

                                                                                                              I was member back in the early 70's, I was actually club president around
                                                                                                              1975, but I left just before the move to Walthers, now I wish I'd stayed on.

                                                                                                              Don

                                                                                                              Don Dellmann
                                                                                                              don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                              Owner
                                                                                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 8866 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 3/2/2009
                                                                                                              Subject: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                In case anyone in the group is interested:


                                                                                                                **************
                                                                                                                Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002)
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8867 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/2/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Dang!!

                                                                                                                There goes my last major domestic source for HO steamer drivers ?!?!?!?!

                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 2, 2009, at 4:56 PM, bslook@... wrote:

                                                                                                                > In case anyone in the group is interested:

                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > From: BOWSER MFG
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Just a little note to all our customers,
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Bowser has discontinued HO steam loco, turntable, Standard gauge and
                                                                                                                > O gauge replacement wheel production.
                                                                                                                ....................
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Steam loco parts are still available but when our supply is
                                                                                                                > exhausted I do not plan to restock.
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8868 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 3/2/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Yes, it's a shame, Greenway Products is still around though (as far as I know).
                                                                                                                http://greenwayproducts.com/a_drivers.shtml

                                                                                                                http://greenwayproducts.com/index.shtml

                                                                                                                Best, Brian L.


                                                                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 6:10 pm
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Dang!!

                                                                                                                There goes my last major domestic source for HO steamer drivers ?!?!?!?!

                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 2, 2009, at 4:56 PM, bslook@... wrote:

                                                                                                                > In case anyone in the group is interested:

                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > From: BOWSER MFG
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Just a little note to all our customers,
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Bowser has discontinued HO steam loco, turntable, Standard gauge and
                                                                                                                > O gauge replacement wheel production.
                                                                                                                .............. ........
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Steam loco parts are still available but when our supply is
                                                                                                                > exhausted I do not plan to restock.
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8869 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/2/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Greenway should also have a different selection of drivers for some
                                                                                                                time in the future, having both sources would be better.

                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 2, 2009, at 5:19 PM, bslook@... wrote:

                                                                                                                > Yes, it's a shame, Greenway Products is still around though (as far
                                                                                                                > as I know).
                                                                                                                > http://greenwayproducts.com/a_drivers.shtml
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > http://greenwayproducts.com/index.shtml
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Best, Brian L.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                > From: Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                > Dang!!
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > There goes my last major domestic source for HO steamer
                                                                                                                > drivers ?!?!?!?!
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > On Mar 2, 2009, at 4:56 PM, bslook@... wrote:
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > > In case anyone in the group is interested:
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > From: BOWSER MFG
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > Just a little note to all our customers,
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > Bowser has discontinued HO steam loco, turntable, Standard gauge and
                                                                                                                > > O gauge replacement wheel production.
                                                                                                                > ......................
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > Steam loco parts are still available but when our supply is
                                                                                                                > > exhausted I do not plan to restock.
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8870 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                The main problem is that the Greenway Products drivers are oriental
                                                                                                                and have 3 mm axles. The Bowser drivers are US made and have 1/8"
                                                                                                                axles. They are not interchangeable without major work, like boring
                                                                                                                out the 3 mm axle holes in the drivers and replacing the axles with
                                                                                                                1/8" ones.

                                                                                                                Greenway Products are great, and I use them, for modifying brass
                                                                                                                locos. The Bowser drivers are needed for repair or rebuilding of US
                                                                                                                made kits.

                                                                                                                I suppose the only solution will be to scavange for basket case locos
                                                                                                                to steal parts from.

                                                                                                                Bill DeFoe




                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Greenway should also have a different selection of drivers for
                                                                                                                some
                                                                                                                > time in the future, having both sources would be better.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Best to ya,
                                                                                                                > Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                > Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > On Mar 2, 2009, at 5:19 PM, bslook@... wrote:
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > > Yes, it's a shame, Greenway Products is still around though (as
                                                                                                                far
                                                                                                                > > as I know).
                                                                                                                > > http://greenwayproducts.com/a_drivers.shtml
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > http://greenwayproducts.com/index.shtml
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > Best, Brian L.
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                > > From: Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                > > Dang!!
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > There goes my last major domestic source for HO steamer
                                                                                                                > > drivers ?!?!?!?!
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > On Mar 2, 2009, at 4:56 PM, bslook@... wrote:
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > > In case anyone in the group is interested:
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                > > > From: BOWSER MFG
                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                > > > Just a little note to all our customers,
                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                > > > Bowser has discontinued HO steam loco, turntable, Standard
                                                                                                                gauge and
                                                                                                                > > > O gauge replacement wheel production.
                                                                                                                > > ......................
                                                                                                                > > >
                                                                                                                > > > Steam loco parts are still available but when our supply is
                                                                                                                > > > exhausted I do not plan to restock.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8871 From: Denny Anspach Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Greenway drivers are anything but drop-in replacements, despite
                                                                                                                Greenway being a life saver in so many other ways. Greenway's
                                                                                                                replacement drivers have 3mm axles and metric rod screws, while Bowser
                                                                                                                has 1/8" axles and has English threads.

                                                                                                                Bowser's retirement from the scene is not a good sign. It further
                                                                                                                squeezes the opportunities for those in this hobby who enjoy the craft
                                                                                                                skills of keeping old models alive, and improving old and new models
                                                                                                                alike.

                                                                                                                Already Bowser has outsourced their Cal Scale and other cast brass
                                                                                                                detail operations overseas, and in the process, reportedly, have lost
                                                                                                                some of the original patterns- which cannot be replaced.

                                                                                                                Denny
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8872 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Doesn't Yardbird still offer driver wheels for some locomotives, particularly Varney and Mantua?

                                                                                                                Or do they get their wheels from Bowser?

                                                                                                                I heard from the hobby shop owner that Boswer might discontinue tender kits too. Considering how many I have, and that I am fixing to buy a bunch of USRA tenders soon, I better do that even quicker!

                                                                                                                -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                --- On Tue, 3/3/09, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 11:20 AM

                                                                                                                Greenway drivers are anything but drop-in replacements, despite
                                                                                                                Greenway being a life saver in so many other ways. Greenway's
                                                                                                                replacement drivers have 3mm axles and metric rod screws, while Bowser
                                                                                                                has 1/8" axles and has English threads.

                                                                                                                Bowser's retirement from the scene is not a good sign. It further
                                                                                                                squeezes the opportunities for those in this hobby who enjoy the craft
                                                                                                                skills of keeping old models alive, and improving old and new models
                                                                                                                alike.

                                                                                                                Already Bowser has outsourced their Cal Scale and other cast brass
                                                                                                                detail operations overseas, and in the process, reportedly, have lost
                                                                                                                some of the original patterns- which cannot be replaced.

                                                                                                                Denny
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8873 From: Henry Hultgren Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Hello Steven , Group . Yardbird does offer drivers , and he is a
                                                                                                                Bowser dealer . HH--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum
                                                                                                                <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Doesn't Yardbird still offer driver wheels for some locomotives,
                                                                                                                particularly Varney and Mantua?
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Or do they get their wheels from Bowser?
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > I heard from the hobby shop owner that Boswer might discontinue
                                                                                                                tender kits too. Considering how many I have, and that I am fixing to
                                                                                                                buy a bunch of USRA tenders soon, I better do that even quicker!
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > --- On Tue, 3/3/09, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                > From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
                                                                                                                > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 11:20 AM
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Greenway drivers are anything but drop-in replacements,
                                                                                                                despite
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Greenway being a life saver in so many other ways. Greenway's
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > replacement drivers have 3mm axles and metric rod screws, while
                                                                                                                Bowser
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > has 1/8" axles and has English threads.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Bowser's retirement from the scene is not a good sign. It further
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > squeezes the opportunities for those in this hobby who enjoy the
                                                                                                                craft
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > skills of keeping old models alive, and improving old and new
                                                                                                                models
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > alike.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Already Bowser has outsourced their Cal Scale and other cast brass
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > detail operations overseas, and in the process, reportedly, have
                                                                                                                lost
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > some of the original patterns- which cannot be replaced.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Denny
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8874 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                List,

                                                                                                                I don't think you will see an end to the Bowser/Pennline stuff
                                                                                                                completely. The steam locomotives appears to be heading to a new owner.
                                                                                                                He is suppose to upgrade the whole line if I understand correctly.
                                                                                                                Although you may want to start saving up now if you plan on purchsing
                                                                                                                anything in his loco line. For what it is worth, this is just one email
                                                                                                                I have seen:

                                                                                                                email message:

                                                                                                                Group,

                                                                                                                This was posted on the Anthracite RR group site:

                                                                                                                Good news however, for those who also like PRR steam power is that I
                                                                                                                have arranged with Bowser to carry forward the   Penn Line/ Bowser
                                                                                                                legacy, in part. That is, fully modern tooling will be derived, and
                                                                                                                state of the art classes E 6 Atlantic, G5 Ten Wheeler, H8 and H 10
                                                                                                                Consolidations will now be built as Production Run models by Eddystone
                                                                                                                Locomotive Co. These locomotives will be very well detailed, and powered
                                                                                                                by the Eddystone As-36 or AS-28 drive ( your choice of gearing), driven
                                                                                                                by an efficient can motor. A variety of quality tenders will be
                                                                                                                available, with Soundtraxx decoders if you wish. The other new "Pennsy
                                                                                                                Classic" -- the new product line name-- will be the K4 with long haul
                                                                                                                tender. There were 10 such locos in the 1930s.

                                                                                                                See

                                                                                                                http://www.eddystonelocomotives.com

                                                                                                                Best regards, David Grover / ARHS / Eddystone Locomotive Co.

                                                                                                                End of email message

                                                                                                                Personally, I think Lee English is dumping due to lack of interest and
                                                                                                                movement of this outdated 1950's technology model equipment. Probably a
                                                                                                                wise business choice. He is keeping alive pretty much everything else,
                                                                                                                where the sells are. (plastic kits, detail parts, Stewart Locos etc)

                                                                                                                .........Gary





                                                                                                                Come visit my PRR Pages:

                                                                                                                http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/PRR-pages.html
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8875 From: Gerald Garteiser Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Hope Dan is stocking up on Bowser inventory-would appear Lee English has no more interest in kit locomotives-which would also mean parts manufacture.  Several years ago he had a “where have all the kit builders gone?” fire sale; the prices never did go back up as high as the pre-sale time period.  My speculation-but these kits have been around for 50+ years, and the dies have probably outlived their useful lives.  Also, just not worth the expense to try and stock slow moving inventory.  Too bad-I have refurbished several old locos (“New One”, Varney, which many Bowser drive parts work nicely in) which would have otherwise ended up as doorstops. . . . . .    JerryGarteiser

                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Henry Hultgren
                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:58 AM
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Subject: [SPAM] [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                Hello Steven , Group . Yardbird does offer drivers , and he is a
                                                                                                                Bowser dealer . HH--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum
                                                                                                                <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Doesn't Yardbird still offer driver wheels for some locomotives,
                                                                                                                particularly Varney and Mantua?
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Or do they get their wheels from Bowser?
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > I heard from the hobby shop owner that Boswer might discontinue
                                                                                                                tender kits too. Considering how many I have, and that I am fixing to
                                                                                                                buy a bunch of USRA tenders soon, I better do that even quicker!
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > --- On Tue, 3/3/09, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                > From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
                                                                                                                > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 11:20 AM
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Greenway drivers are anything but drop-in replacements,
                                                                                                                despite
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Greenway being a life saver in so many other ways. Greenway's
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > replacement drivers have 3mm axles and metric rod screws, while
                                                                                                                Bowser
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > has 1/8" axles and has English threads.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Bowser's retirement from the scene is not a good sign. It further
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > squeezes the opportunities for those in this hobby who enjoy the
                                                                                                                craft
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > skills of keeping old models alive, and improving old and new
                                                                                                                models
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > alike.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Already Bowser has outsourced their Cal Scale and other cast brass
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > detail operations overseas, and in the process, reportedly, have
                                                                                                                lost
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > some of the original patterns- which cannot be replaced.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Denny
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8876 From: John Hagen Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Memo to myself; It is usually best to type the message before
                                                                                                                activitating the send button.

                                                                                                                This message is being cross-posted as I find it a bit silly to say
                                                                                                                the same thing in multiple groups using different phraseology.

                                                                                                                Yes, Yardbird is a good source for hard to find parts useful to
                                                                                                                restorers and kit bashers. But, I believe that the Bowser OEM stuff
                                                                                                                he sells is sourced from Bowser.

                                                                                                                The demise of Bowser parts is a definite loss. But really, how is a
                                                                                                                manufacturer going to keep stock on parts for kits that are no longer
                                                                                                                in production? I hope there exists enough stock on hand to keep the
                                                                                                                supply viable for some time but....

                                                                                                                Many of the comments about this unfortunate state of affairs have
                                                                                                                come from those who are kit bashers. Understand kit bashing is
                                                                                                                becoming a lost art, especially where diecast steam is involved. That
                                                                                                                is likely one of the reasons the folks at the oft-maligned Model
                                                                                                                Railroader Magazine are running a kit-bashing contest. This is
                                                                                                                intended serve to re-ignite some interest in kit bashing as the three
                                                                                                                winners (maybe more according to their rules) will be published in
                                                                                                                their pages.

                                                                                                                How many of their submissions will involve kit bashed steam? Well,
                                                                                                                that is mostly up to (among others) the people who belong to these
                                                                                                                groups. I have just begun a project that I had been working up in
                                                                                                                theory. Just when I determined it to be doable and started to collect
                                                                                                                some of the pieces necessary, up comes this contest. So there will be
                                                                                                                (provided my skills are still sharp enough) at least one diecast
                                                                                                                steamer amongst the entrants. And I am quite certain they will
                                                                                                                welcome more.

                                                                                                                John Hagen
                                                                                                                Saint Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI


                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Hultgren" <long95209@...>
                                                                                                                wrote:
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Hello Steven , Group . Yardbird does offer drivers , and he is a
                                                                                                                > Bowser dealer . HH--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum
                                                                                                                > <computersystemrebuild@> wrote:
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > Doesn't Yardbird still offer driver wheels for some locomotives,
                                                                                                                > particularly Varney and Mantua?
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > Or do they get their wheels from Bowser?
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > I heard from the hobby shop owner that Boswer might discontinue
                                                                                                                > tender kits too. Considering how many I have, and that I am fixing
                                                                                                                to
                                                                                                                > buy a bunch of USRA tenders soon, I better do that even quicker!
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > --- On Tue, 3/3/09, Denny Anspach <danspach@> wrote:
                                                                                                                > > From: Denny Anspach <danspach@>
                                                                                                                > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                > > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 11:20 AM
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > Greenway drivers are anything but drop-in
                                                                                                                replacements,
                                                                                                                > despite
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > Greenway being a life saver in so many other ways. Greenway's
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > replacement drivers have 3mm axles and metric rod screws, while
                                                                                                                > Bowser
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > has 1/8" axles and has English threads.
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > Bowser's retirement from the scene is not a good sign. It
                                                                                                                further
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > squeezes the opportunities for those in this hobby who enjoy the
                                                                                                                > craft
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > skills of keeping old models alive, and improving old and new
                                                                                                                > models
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > alike.
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > Already Bowser has outsourced their Cal Scale and other cast
                                                                                                                brass
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > detail operations overseas, and in the process, reportedly, have
                                                                                                                > lost
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > some of the original patterns- which cannot be replaced.
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > Denny
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8877 From: WK2SHR@aol.com Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find.

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave



                                                                                                                **************
                                                                                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219957551x1201325337/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8878 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Most of us oldtimers used saws, files, drills, chisels, knives and grinders along with drilling and tapping.  That was the only way we could get what we wanted that was anywhere near resembling models that were not yet produced.  We even spliced short cars to get cars of the correct length.  I have done the same with locomotive boilers.  Sometimes we even made our own parts using all kinds of materials including plastics.  The advent of plastic models made that job a lot easier, especially with diesels and steam locos.

                                                                                                                It does take a lot of time and effort but you can say you built it.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                ===============================================

                                                                                                                WK2SHR@... wrote:

                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find.

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave



                                                                                                                ************ **
                                                                                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x121995 7551x1201325337/ aol?redir=http:%2F% 2Fwww.freecredit report.com% 2Fpm%2Fdefault. aspx%3Fsc% 3D668072% 26hmpgID% 3D62%26bcd% 3Dfebemailfooter NO62)

                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8879 From: keith gutshall Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Hello Dave
                                                                                                                 The home machinist is not  dead judgeing from the all the metal working and machine building group on  yahoo groups.
                                                                                                                They have the right stuff for metal work.
                                                                                                                 Most model railroader just do not maybe know about the machines available for metal work.
                                                                                                                It takes a lot of skill to use them maybe they just do not want to learn.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                 Keith

                                                                                                                Deep Run Portage
                                                                                                                Back Shop
                                                                                                                " The Lizard Works"

                                                                                                                --- On Tue, 3/3/09, WK2SHR@... <WK2SHR@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                From: WK2SHR@... <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 3:48 PM

                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find.

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave



                                                                                                                ************ **
                                                                                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x121995 7551x1201325337/ aol?redir= http:%2F% 2Fwww.freecredit report.com% 2Fpm%2Fdefault. aspx%3Fsc% 3D668072% 26hmpgID% 3D62%26bcd% 3Dfebemailfooter NO62)

                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8880 From: Chris B Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                absolutely Don.   and to add to that list, I'd be lost without dremel tools and stock brass shapes.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Chris B
                                                                                                                (bashing or building 26 all metal vintage powered units for the W&OD diesel era...)
                                                                                                                From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 5:03:01 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Most of us oldtimers used saws, files, drills, chisels, knives and grinders along with drilling and tapping.  That was the only way we could get what we wanted that was anywhere near resembling models that were not yet produced.  We even spliced short cars to get cars of the correct length.  I have done the same with locomotive boilers.  Sometimes we even made our own parts using all kinds of materials including plastics.  The advent of plastic models made that job a lot easier, especially with diesels and steam locos.

                                                                                                                It does take a lot of time and effort but you can say you built it.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= ========= ========

                                                                                                                WK2SHR@... wrote:

                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find.

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave



                                                                                                                ************ **
                                                                                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x121995 7551x1201325337/ aol?redir=http:%2F% 2Fwww.freecredit report.com% 2Fpm%2Fdefault. aspx%3Fsc% 3D668072% 26hmpgID% 3D62%26bcd% 3Dfebemailfooter NO62)


                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8881 From: Railroad Modeler Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                True, but they tend to be professionals in the trade just doing their thing at home.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Regards,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Ken Berry
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 3:11 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Hello Dave
                                                                                                                 The home machinist is not  dead judgeing from the all the metal working and machine building group on  yahoo groups.
                                                                                                                They have the right stuff for metal work.
                                                                                                                 Most model railroader just do not maybe know about the machines available for metal work.
                                                                                                                It takes a lot of skill to use them maybe they just do not want to learn.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                 Keith

                                                                                                                Deep Run Portage
                                                                                                                Back Shop
                                                                                                                " The Lizard Works"

                                                                                                                --- On Tue, 3/3/09, WK2SHR@... <WK2SHR@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                From: WK2SHR@... <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 3:48 PM

                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find.

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave



                                                                                                                ************ **
                                                                                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x121995 7551x1201325337/ aol?redir= http:%2F% 2Fwww.freecredit report.com% 2Fpm%2Fdefault. aspx%3Fsc% 3D668072% 26hmpgID% 3D62%26bcd% 3Dfebemailfooter NO62)

                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8882 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                I fully agree...  Plus plastic aluminum, sheet brass, sheet plastic, soldering torches, soldering tweezers, hard and soft solders, Brass tubes made for toilet drains and turning your own parts using a rod chucked in a drill and different kinds of files.  A Dremel hand tool was one of my first expensive tools including the drill press stand to go with it.  I have put many materials into model building that I just thought of as the job was being done...
                                                                                                                And painting with a head on a pressurized can because we could not afford the mini-spray guns.

                                                                                                                Thanks for the response.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                ===================================================

                                                                                                                Chris B wrote:
                                                                                                                absolutely Don.   and to add to that list, I'd be lost without dremel tools and stock brass shapes.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Chris B
                                                                                                                (bashing or building 26 all metal vintage powered units for the W&OD diesel era...)
                                                                                                                From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@verizon. net>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 5:03:01 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Most of us oldtimers used saws, files, drills, chisels, knives and grinders along with drilling and tapping.  That was the only way we could get what we wanted that was anywhere near resembling models that were not yet produced.  We even spliced short cars to get cars of the correct length.  I have done the same with locomotive boilers.  Sometimes we even made our own parts using all kinds of materials including plastics.  The advent of plastic models made that job a lot easier, especially with diesels and steam locos.

                                                                                                                It does take a lot of time and effort but you can say you built it.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= ========= ========

                                                                                                                WK2SHR@... wrote:

                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find.

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave



                                                                                                                ************ **
                                                                                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x121995 7551x1201325337/ aol?redir=http:%2F% 2Fwww.freecredit report.com% 2Fpm%2Fdefault. aspx%3Fsc% 3D668072% 26hmpgID% 3D62%26bcd% 3Dfebemailfooter NO62)


                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8883 From: keith gutshall Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Hello Don
                                                                                                                 You can do a lot of metal working with simple tools.
                                                                                                                 I agree that plastic models have made it easier to do than metal working.
                                                                                                                 I have built a lot of cars and stuff that was not available any other way.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                 Keith

                                                                                                                Deep Run Portage
                                                                                                                Back Shop
                                                                                                                " The Lizard Works"

                                                                                                                --- On Tue, 3/3/09, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 4:03 PM

                                                                                                                Most of us oldtimers used saws, files, drills, chisels, knives and grinders along with drilling and tapping.  That was the only way we could get what we wanted that was anywhere near resembling models that were not yet produced.  We even spliced short cars to get cars of the correct length.  I have done the same with locomotive boilers.  Sometimes we even made our own parts using all kinds of materials including plastics.  The advent of plastic models made that job a lot easier, especially with diesels and steam locos.

                                                                                                                It does take a lot of time and effort but you can say you built it.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= ========= ========

                                                                                                                WK2SHR@... wrote:
                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find.

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave



                                                                                                                ************ **
                                                                                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x121995 7551x1201325337/ aol?redir=http:%2F% 2Fwww.freecredit report.com% 2Fpm%2Fdefault. aspx%3Fsc% 3D668072% 26hmpgID% 3D62%26bcd% 3Dfebemailfooter NO62)

                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8884 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                I think it's more accurate to write that -few- people do metal working these days.........

                                                                                                                And that those that don't, do not know what common tools can be used for the work.

                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 3, 2009, at 3:48 PM, WK2SHR@... wrote:

                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find. 

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave 
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8885 From: Chris B Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                right you are Don!    and just because we can make something out of sheet brass and hand tools doesn't mean we don't go green with envy...when we read posts or articles from those lucky guys with sherline lathes, real mills/drill presses, or resistance soldering units!!!  
                                                                                                                I've got tools, lots of tools, but oh could I use some really serious tools!
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                but what would I do then for excuses for why they're not all built and run perfectly!
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Chris B

                                                                                                                From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 5:29:53 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                I fully agree...  Plus plastic aluminum, sheet brass, sheet plastic, soldering torches, soldering tweezers, hard and soft solders, Brass tubes made for toilet drains and turning your own parts using a rod chucked in a drill and different kinds of files.  A Dremel hand tool was one of my first expensive tools including the drill press stand to go with it.  I have put many materials into model building that I just thought of as the job was being done...
                                                                                                                And painting with a head on a pressurized can because we could not afford the mini-spray guns.

                                                                                                                Thanks for the response.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ===

                                                                                                                Chris B wrote:

                                                                                                                absolutely Don.   and to add to that list, I'd be lost without dremel tools and stock brass shapes.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Chris B
                                                                                                                (bashing or building 26 all metal vintage powered units for the W&OD diesel era...)
                                                                                                                From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@verizon. net>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 5:03:01 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Most of us oldtimers used saws, files, drills, chisels, knives and grinders along with drilling and tapping.  That was the only way we could get what we wanted that was anywhere near resembling models that were not yet produced.  We even spliced short cars to get cars of the correct length.  I have done the same with locomotive boilers.  Sometimes we even made our own parts using all kinds of materials including plastics.  The advent of plastic models made that job a lot easier, especially with diesels and steam locos.

                                                                                                                It does take a lot of time and effort but you can say you built it.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= ========= ========

                                                                                                                WK2SHR@... wrote:

                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find.

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave



                                                                                                                ************ **
                                                                                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x121995 7551x1201325337/ aol?redir=http:%2F% 2Fwww.freecredit report.com% 2Fpm%2Fdefault. aspx%3Fsc% 3D668072% 26hmpgID% 3D62%26bcd% 3Dfebemailfooter NO62)



                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8886 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Dave and ALL,
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                          I am very fortunate to have a lot of machine shop training along with tool and die plus heat treating . As a Millwright by profession I spent over 1,700 hours in night school adult vo-tech classes learning how to operate "the tools of the trade" (lathes, drill presses, milling machines, etc) and even had NC and CNC milling machine training. I even got training on making gears on a gear cutter using a dividing head.  I was VERY fortunate to have an instructor who worked in industry for years and was a tool and die maker by trade. When he saw my interest he shared a vast amount of knowledge with me. Although my main job as a millwright didn't go that deep I thought it was best to learn everything I could from a man I would call an expert.
                                                                                                                         I am fortunate to have a small lathe, drill press and milling machine in the house for making my own parts but you would be surprised how far a dremel tool and files can be if you have time and patience. My drafting experience is a big plus and helps take the idea out of my head and put it on paper.
                                                                                                                         While I have no problem doing things for myself I would not want to be in business, even in miniature like HO. The cost to set up and produce would be higher then people would want to pay. Just having the background, machines and materials is not enough. TIME and patience is also needed. Making a single part, as compared to mass produced items, doesn't lend to being cost effective and cheap. That is why you don't find a trained person doing this.
                                                                                                                         I'm sorry to see the end of Bowser's efforts in metal steam engines and how it will effect kitbashing but can understand why no one out there does this type of work privately.
                                                                                                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                From: WK2SHR@...
                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 4:48 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find.

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave



                                                                                                                ************ **
                                                                                                                A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x121995 7551x1201325337/ aol?redir= http:%2F% 2Fwww.freecredit report.com% 2Fpm%2Fdefault. aspx%3Fsc% 3D668072% 26hmpgID% 3D62%26bcd% 3Dfebemailfooter NO62)

                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8887 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                I think we can safely state that with the exception of making your own drivers, the rest of the models can be built with ordinary hand tools and commercial parts. Making a plastic superstructure is much easier than making it in metal.

                                                                                                                There are ways to make our own driver centers and use those with bored-out diesel locomotive wheels for the smaller drivers and -some- larger scale wheels. It gets a bit more exotic to make and build with the larger steamer driver tires.

                                                                                                                While we can build our own detail castings like airpumps and feedwater heaters from the vintage construction articles, I'm going to hang onto some old AHM carcasses for removing and then making duplicate detail parts from inexpensive RTV-casting kits on the day that detail parts are no longer available to me. The domes alone on the old carcasses will be handy........ and castable.

                                                                                                                There is a $7 build a pair of detailed 4-4-0 passenger and freight train out of printed cardboard book that includes a complete station and watering stop. Once you've built the cardboard models, you can do the same in sheet plastics or metal with model RR mechanisms and underbody trucks, using a second book as the builders templates.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 3, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                Most of us oldtimers used saws, files, drills, chisels, knives and grinders along with drilling and tapping.  That was the only way we could get what we wanted that was anywhere near resembling models that were not yet produced.  We even spliced short cars to get cars of the correct length.  I have done the same with locomotive boilers.  Sometimes we even made our own parts using all kinds of materials including plastics.  The advent of plastic models made that job a lot easier, especially with diesels and steam locos.

                                                                                                                It does take a lot of time and effort but you can say you built it.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                ===============================================

                                                                                                                WK2SHR@... wrote:

                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find. 

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave 
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8888 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/3/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Long-term..........

                                                                                                                I'm thinking of learning to like steel tires made from plumbing pipe
                                                                                                                with my lathe, and setting up to make my own driver-centers with a cnc-
                                                                                                                mill in brass; or RTV-casting with Pewter, or metal-filled Alumilite.

                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 3, 2009, at 10:37 AM, Bill DeFoe wrote:

                                                                                                                > The main problem is that the Greenway Products drivers are oriental
                                                                                                                > and have 3 mm axles. The Bowser drivers are US made and have 1/8"
                                                                                                                > axles. They are not interchangeable without major work, like boring
                                                                                                                > out the 3 mm axle holes in the drivers and replacing the axles with
                                                                                                                > 1/8" ones.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Greenway Products are great, and I use them, for modifying brass
                                                                                                                > locos. The Bowser drivers are needed for repair or rebuilding of US
                                                                                                                > made kits.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > I suppose the only solution will be to scavange for basket case locos
                                                                                                                > to steal parts from.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > --- Mike Bauers wrote:
                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                >> Greenway should also have a different selection of drivers for
                                                                                                                > some
                                                                                                                >> time in the future, having both sources would be better.
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8889 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/4/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Hi Guys an Girls,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                If your not affraid to work with steel, there are guys who can make driver tires  out of common washers, its done all the time in O scale, so I see no reason why it can't be one in HO scale as well...........:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 7:54:16 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                I think we can safely state that with the exception of making your own drivers, the rest of the models can be built with ordinary hand tools and commercial parts. Making a plastic superstructure is much easier than making it in metal.


                                                                                                                There are ways to make our own driver centers and use those with bored-out diesel locomotive wheels for the smaller drivers and -some- larger scale wheels. It gets a bit more exotic to make and build with the larger steamer driver tires.

                                                                                                                While we can build our own detail castings like airpumps and feedwater heaters from the vintage construction articles, I'm going to hang onto some old AHM carcasses for removing and then making duplicate detail parts from inexpensive RTV-casting kits on the day that detail parts are no longer available to me. The domes alone on the old carcasses will be handy....... . and castable.

                                                                                                                There is a $7 build a pair of detailed 4-4-0 passenger and freight train out of printed cardboard book that includes a complete station and watering stop. Once you've built the cardboard models, you can do the same in sheet plastics or metal with model RR mechanisms and underbody trucks, using a second book as the builders templates.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 3, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                Most of us oldtimers used saws, files, drills, chisels, knives and grinders along with drilling and tapping.  That was the only way we could get what we wanted that was anywhere near resembling models that were not yet produced.  We even spliced short cars to get cars of the correct length.  I have done the same with locomotive boilers.  Sometimes we even made our own parts using all kinds of materials including plastics.  The advent of plastic models made that job a lot easier, especially with diesels and steam locos.

                                                                                                                It does take a lot of time and effort but you can say you built it.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= ========= ========

                                                                                                                WK2SHR@... wrote:

                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find. 

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave 
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8890 From: Chris B Date: 3/4/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                C'mon Gary, using washer stock is tire-bashing, not scratch building!   <G> 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                After serving an apprenticeship in my youth doing fine antique furniture restoration, and having my own shop for several years, I started doing the shop drawings and fabricating high-end millwork for historic houses being restored under govt grants. Because the work was government funded, it had to be done to museum specs. 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Since I had to use authentic tools and methods to fabricate ornate staircases and external trim turnings and moldings, sometimes I had to make my own tools.  I recycled old car leaf spring steel to make plane irons and large scale turning tools.  That's when I started working metal with hand tools.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                I thought I was pretty sharp (!) till that year's April issue of Fine Woodworking magazine had na article about a guy who not only grew the trees from which he made his socket chisel handles, but who also went every summer to the mines to get the ore to make the iron to forge the steel to make the chisels. 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                I felt outclassed till someone pointed out it was the April issue!
                                                                                                                Chris B.
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 6:05:58 AM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Hi Guys an Girls,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                If your not affraid to work with steel, there are guys who can make driver tires  out of common washers, its done all the time in O scale, so I see no reason why it can't be one in HO scale as well........ ...:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 7:54:16 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                I think we can safely state that with the exception of making your own drivers, the rest of the models can be built with ordinary hand tools and commercial parts. Making a plastic superstructure is much easier than making it in metal.


                                                                                                                There are ways to make our own driver centers and use those with bored-out diesel locomotive wheels for the smaller drivers and -some- larger scale wheels. It gets a bit more exotic to make and build with the larger steamer driver tires.

                                                                                                                While we can build our own detail castings like airpumps and feedwater heaters from the vintage construction articles, I'm going to hang onto some old AHM carcasses for removing and then making duplicate detail parts from inexpensive RTV-casting kits on the day that detail parts are no longer available to me. The domes alone on the old carcasses will be handy....... . and castable.

                                                                                                                There is a $7 build a pair of detailed 4-4-0 passenger and freight train out of printed cardboard book that includes a complete station and watering stop. Once you've built the cardboard models, you can do the same in sheet plastics or metal with model RR mechanisms and underbody trucks, using a second book as the builders templates.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 3, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                Most of us oldtimers used saws, files, drills, chisels, knives and grinders along with drilling and tapping.  That was the only way we could get what we wanted that was anywhere near resembling models that were not yet produced.  We even spliced short cars to get cars of the correct length.  I have done the same with locomotive boilers.  Sometimes we even made our own parts using all kinds of materials including plastics.  The advent of plastic models made that job a lot easier, especially with diesels and steam locos.

                                                                                                                It does take a lot of time and effort but you can say you built it.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= ========= ========

                                                                                                                WK2SHR@... wrote:

                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find. 

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave 
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8891 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/4/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Hi all,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                 I have read most of the posts on this topic and I really have had little to add. I must say though..
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                I myself do not have many resources for scratch-building parts from raw materials ...yet, but I will do more someday. However, I seem to have no problem finding good used parts. Sure, new parts would be great and some of you guys who like to use only new parts may be a be a bit discouraged by this news, but you will find a way.  A project or two may need to be shelved for a little while, but something will com your way that you can use.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                if I may add... I have found model-railroaders to be quite the resourceful bunch. Sure, we guys are often resistant to change, but it happens..all the time and then we figure out a way to make it all work.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                That's life.. good or bad, it goes on..  I just hope I am able to clear out my junk before my kids have to..
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                the perpetual optimist..
                                                                                                                Sean

                                                                                                                From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 8:36:02 AM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                C'mon Gary, using washer stock is tire-bashing, not scratch building!   <G> 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                After serving an apprenticeship in my youth doing fine antique furniture restoration, and having my own shop for several years, I started doing the shop drawings and fabricating high-end millwork for historic houses being restored under govt grants. Because the work was government funded, it had to be done to museum specs. 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Since I had to use authentic tools and methods to fabricate ornate staircases and external trim turnings and moldings, sometimes I had to make my own tools.  I recycled old car leaf spring steel to make plane irons and large scale turning tools.  That's when I started working metal with hand tools.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                I thought I was pretty sharp (!) till that year's April issue of Fine Woodworking magazine had na article about a guy who not only grew the trees from which he made his socket chisel handles, but who also went every summer to the mines to get the ore to make the iron to forge the steel to make the chisels. 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                I felt outclassed till someone pointed out it was the April issue!
                                                                                                                Chris B.
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 6:05:58 AM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Hi Guys an Girls,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                If your not affraid to work with steel, there are guys who can make driver tires  out of common washers, its done all the time in O scale, so I see no reason why it can't be one in HO scale as well........ ...:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 7:54:16 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                I think we can safely state that with the exception of making your own drivers, the rest of the models can be built with ordinary hand tools and commercial parts. Making a plastic superstructure is much easier than making it in metal.


                                                                                                                There are ways to make our own driver centers and use those with bored-out diesel locomotive wheels for the smaller drivers and -some- larger scale wheels. It gets a bit more exotic to make and build with the larger steamer driver tires.

                                                                                                                While we can build our own detail castings like airpumps and feedwater heaters from the vintage construction articles, I'm going to hang onto some old AHM carcasses for removing and then making duplicate detail parts from inexpensive RTV-casting kits on the day that detail parts are no longer available to me. The domes alone on the old carcasses will be handy....... . and castable.

                                                                                                                There is a $7 build a pair of detailed 4-4-0 passenger and freight train out of printed cardboard book that includes a complete station and watering stop. Once you've built the cardboard models, you can do the same in sheet plastics or metal with model RR mechanisms and underbody trucks, using a second book as the builders templates.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 3, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                Most of us oldtimers used saws, files, drills, chisels, knives and grinders along with drilling and tapping.  That was the only way we could get what we wanted that was anywhere near resembling models that were not yet produced.  We even spliced short cars to get cars of the correct length.  I have done the same with locomotive boilers.  Sometimes we even made our own parts using all kinds of materials including plastics.  The advent of plastic models made that job a lot easier, especially with diesels and steam locos.

                                                                                                                It does take a lot of time and effort but you can say you built it.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= ========= ========

                                                                                                                WK2SHR@... wrote:

                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find. 

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave 
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8892 From: John Hagen Date: 3/4/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Scratching & Bashing (Was: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements)
                                                                                                                Some how this thread went from the loss of Bowser kits & things to kitbashing all the way to building from scratch.

                                                                                                                Does a machine shop and a journeymen skill-set make it easier to fabricate a Allegheny from a box of brass pieces? Yeah, I would say it would. But is it necessary?

                                                                                                                I have been researching (and throwing out) old issues of MR. Mainly keeping pre 60's issues and anything with good kitbashing and/or scratch building articles, especially steam related.

                                                                                                                I have re-read several projects by Mel Thornburg and some by others such as Carl Traub. Neither of these gentlemen used much in the way of machine tools and their work was definitely up to standards. History is a great teacher.

                                                                                                                MR ran a series on building a USRA light mike in the 80's(?) by Gordon Oldegard that included machine tool type work. It was very detailed and probably a tad overdone but he sure built a beautiful model. MR and other mags have published scratchbuilding steam articles since that were no where near as dependant on machine room activities.

                                                                                                                I am starting on a project to kitbash GB&W 0-6-0 #145 (nee #60) in HO using a Mantua drive and a MDC boiler/cab, each with several modifications, including driver spacing changes. My only metal working machine tool is a drill press so most of this will be done using hand tools. I have been planning this for about three months and began collecting pieces about two months ago. Then MR introduced its kitbash contest so now my goal is to build it well enough to place in their contest (I alluded to this previously). We'll see how that works for me, but a decent model of 145 will be built.

                                                                                                                Now that (as usual) I have rambled on and on, the point that I am trying to make is that much can be done with simple tools if one has the drive and imagination to do so.

                                                                                                                Oh yes, there is a Yahoo brass loco builders group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/brasslocobuilders/
                                                                                                                Its message section is open for anyone to browse.

                                                                                                                Model Railroading is fun.

                                                                                                                John Hagen
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8893 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 3/4/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Scratching & Bashing (Was: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements)
                                                                                                                Hi John,

                                                                                                                I am personally working on kitbashing a Mantua Big Six into a Southern A7 and am just about done with the superstructure.  I was going to ignore the driver spacing, because I can't really figure out a good way to do this in a Mantua frame and am not into building my own for this kitbash.  If I were to build my own frame, I would then build my own boiler, cab, tender, etc. also.

                                                                                                                Would you please share how you intend to change the driver spacing on your kitbash project?

                                                                                                                Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                From: sprinthag@...
                                                                                                                Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 15:52:44 +0000
                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Scratching & Bashing (Was: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements)

                                                                                                                Some how this thread went from the loss of Bowser kits & things to kitbashing all the way to building from scratch.

                                                                                                                Does a machine shop and a journeymen skill-set make it easier to fabricate a Allegheny from a box of brass pieces? Yeah, I would say it would. But is it necessary?

                                                                                                                I have been researching (and throwing out) old issues of MR. Mainly keeping pre 60's issues and anything with good kitbashing and/or scratch building articles, especially steam related.

                                                                                                                I have re-read several projects by Mel Thornburg and some by others such as Carl Traub. Neither of these gentlemen used much in the way of machine tools and their work was definitely up to standards. History is a great teacher.

                                                                                                                MR ran a series on building a USRA light mike in the 80's(?) by Gordon Oldegard that included machine tool type work. It was very detailed and probably a tad overdone but he sure built a beautiful model. MR and other mags have published scratchbuilding steam articles since that were no where near as dependant on machine room activities.

                                                                                                                I am starting on a project to kitbash GB&W 0-6-0 #145 (nee #60) in HO using a Mantua drive and a MDC boiler/cab, each with several modifications, including driver spacing changes. My only metal working machine tool is a drill press so most of this will be done using hand tools. I have been planning this for about three months and began collecting pieces about two months ago. Then MR introduced its kitbash contest so now my goal is to build it well enough to place in their contest (I alluded to this previously). We'll see how that works for me, but a decent model of 145 will be built.

                                                                                                                Now that (as usual) I have rambled on and on, the point that I am trying to make is that much can be done with simple tools if one has the drive and imagination to do so.

                                                                                                                Oh yes, there is a Yahoo brass loco builders group at http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/brasslocob uilders/
                                                                                                                Its message section is open for anyone to browse.

                                                                                                                Model Railroading is fun.

                                                                                                                John Hagen



                                                                                                                Windows Live™ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups to meet. Check it out.
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8894 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 3/4/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Hi Gary,

                                                                                                                Is this for real?  I did not think the metal that is used for common washers would be good enough for machining into tires.  Is there a type of washer I should look for and also what would be the setup for this?  Would you use a mandrel in the washer hole to turn the outer part of the tire and then chuck the result to bore out the center?  I have a Taig lathe at home with both a 3-jaw and a 4-jaw, so I wouldn't mind trying this.  I wouldn't mind turning my own tires.

                                                                                                                Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                From: betsy662@...
                                                                                                                Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 03:05:58 -0800
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements


                                                                                                                Hi Guys an Girls,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                If your not affraid to work with steel, there are guys who can make driver tires  out of common washers, its done all the time in O scale, so I see no reason why it can't be one in HO scale as well........ ...:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 7:54:16 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                I think we can safely state that with the exception of making your own drivers, the rest of the models can be built with ordinary hand tools and commercial parts. Making a plastic superstructure is much easier than making it in metal.

                                                                                                                There are ways to make our own driver centers and use those with bored-out diesel locomotive wheels for the smaller drivers and -some- larger scale wheels. It gets a bit more exotic to make and build with the larger steamer driver tires.

                                                                                                                While we can build our own detail castings like airpumps and feedwater heaters from the vintage construction articles, I'm going to hang onto some old AHM carcasses for removing and then making duplicate detail parts from inexpensive RTV-casting kits on the day that detail parts are no longer available to me. The domes alone on the old carcasses will be handy....... . and castable.

                                                                                                                There is a $7 build a pair of detailed 4-4-0 passenger and freight train out of printed cardboard book that includes a complete station and watering stop. Once you've built the cardboard models, you can do the same in sheet plastics or metal with model RR mechanisms and underbody trucks, using a second book as the builders templates.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 3, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                Most of us oldtimers used saws, files, drills, chisels, knives and grinders along with drilling and tapping.  That was the only way we could get what we wanted that was anywhere near resembling models that were not yet produced.  We even spliced short cars to get cars of the correct length.  I have done the same with locomotive boilers.  Sometimes we even made our own parts using all kinds of materials including plastics.  The advent of plastic models made that job a lot easier, especially with diesels and steam locos.

                                                                                                                It does take a lot of time and effort but you can say you built it.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= ========= ========

                                                                                                                WK2SHR@... wrote:
                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find. 

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave 



                                                                                                                Windows Live™: Life without walls. Check it out.
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8895 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/4/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Hi Vic,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Yes it is, remember that O scale tires are large, especially large steam engines, like Pacifics, Berks, Mikes and Northerns have larger diameter drivers, but that is how many of the modelers in O scale do it, there isn't a special kind of steel used, as O scale modelers,many of who love actual steel rail, have no qualms about using steel washers, nickle silver, which is a type of brass, is often too soft.......
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                There used to be a website where it showed how to do this, can't remember where it is though, but the guy would start with a large washer, yes, he would do the tire profile first, then bore it out from the center.........:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...>
                                                                                                                To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 12:02:45 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Hi Gary,

                                                                                                                Is this for real?  I did not think the metal that is used for common washers would be good enough for machining into tires.  Is there a type of washer I should look for and also what would be the setup for this?  Would you use a mandrel in the washer hole to turn the outer part of the tire and then chuck the result to bore out the center?  I have a Taig lathe at home with both a 3-jaw and a 4-jaw, so I wouldn't mind trying this.  I wouldn't mind turning my own tires.

                                                                                                                Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                From: betsy662@yahoo. com
                                                                                                                Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 03:05:58 -0800
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements


                                                                                                                Hi Guys an Girls,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                If your not affraid to work with steel, there are guys who can make driver tires  out of common washers, its done all the time in O scale, so I see no reason why it can't be one in HO scale as well........ ...:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 7:54:16 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                I think we can safely state that with the exception of making your own drivers, the rest of the models can be built with ordinary hand tools and commercial parts. Making a plastic superstructure is much easier than making it in metal.

                                                                                                                There are ways to make our own driver centers and use those with bored-out diesel locomotive wheels for the smaller drivers and -some- larger scale wheels. It gets a bit more exotic to make and build with the larger steamer driver tires.

                                                                                                                While we can build our own detail castings like airpumps and feedwater heaters from the vintage construction articles, I'm going to hang onto some old AHM carcasses for removing and then making duplicate detail parts from inexpensive RTV-casting kits on the day that detail parts are no longer available to me. The domes alone on the old carcasses will be handy....... . and castable.

                                                                                                                There is a $7 build a pair of detailed 4-4-0 passenger and freight train out of printed cardboard book that includes a complete station and watering stop. Once you've built the cardboard models, you can do the same in sheet plastics or metal with model RR mechanisms and underbody trucks, using a second book as the builders templates.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 3, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                Most of us oldtimers used saws, files, drills, chisels, knives and grinders along with drilling and tapping.  That was the only way we could get what we wanted that was anywhere near resembling models that were not yet produced.  We even spliced short cars to get cars of the correct length.  I have done the same with locomotive boilers.  Sometimes we even made our own parts using all kinds of materials including plastics.  The advent of plastic models made that job a lot easier, especially with diesels and steam locos.

                                                                                                                It does take a lot of time and effort but you can say you built it.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= ========= ========

                                                                                                                WK2SHR@... wrote:
                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find. 

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave 



                                                                                                                Windows Live™: Life without walls. Check it out.

                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8896 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/4/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Hi Chris,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                It isn't April yet, so this was no April fools joke, I wish I could remember where that website was, cause it was very interesting, the guy not only turned his driver tires from washers, but also milled the drivers from brass bar stock.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Heres the kicker,  the guy wasn't a formally trained machinist either, just a hobbiest, which isn't common these days, but at one time, it was a lot more common for the true craftsmen in the hobby.........:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 8:36:02 AM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                C'mon Gary, using washer stock is tire-bashing, not scratch building!   <G> 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                After serving an apprenticeship in my youth doing fine antique furniture restoration, and having my own shop for several years, I started doing the shop drawings and fabricating high-end millwork for historic houses being restored under govt grants. Because the work was government funded, it had to be done to museum specs. 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Since I had to use authentic tools and methods to fabricate ornate staircases and external trim turnings and moldings, sometimes I had to make my own tools.  I recycled old car leaf spring steel to make plane irons and large scale turning tools.  That's when I started working metal with hand tools.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                I thought I was pretty sharp (!) till that year's April issue of Fine Woodworking magazine had na article about a guy who not only grew the trees from which he made his socket chisel handles, but who also went every summer to the mines to get the ore to make the iron to forge the steel to make the chisels. 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                I felt outclassed till someone pointed out it was the April issue!
                                                                                                                Chris B.
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 6:05:58 AM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Hi Guys an Girls,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                If your not affraid to work with steel, there are guys who can make driver tires  out of common washers, its done all the time in O scale, so I see no reason why it can't be one in HO scale as well........ ...:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 7:54:16 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                I think we can safely state that with the exception of making your own drivers, the rest of the models can be built with ordinary hand tools and commercial parts. Making a plastic superstructure is much easier than making it in metal.


                                                                                                                There are ways to make our own driver centers and use those with bored-out diesel locomotive wheels for the smaller drivers and -some- larger scale wheels. It gets a bit more exotic to make and build with the larger steamer driver tires.

                                                                                                                While we can build our own detail castings like airpumps and feedwater heaters from the vintage construction articles, I'm going to hang onto some old AHM carcasses for removing and then making duplicate detail parts from inexpensive RTV-casting kits on the day that detail parts are no longer available to me. The domes alone on the old carcasses will be handy....... . and castable.

                                                                                                                There is a $7 build a pair of detailed 4-4-0 passenger and freight train out of printed cardboard book that includes a complete station and watering stop. Once you've built the cardboard models, you can do the same in sheet plastics or metal with model RR mechanisms and underbody trucks, using a second book as the builders templates.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 3, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                Most of us oldtimers used saws, files, drills, chisels, knives and grinders along with drilling and tapping.  That was the only way we could get what we wanted that was anywhere near resembling models that were not yet produced.  We even spliced short cars to get cars of the correct length.  I have done the same with locomotive boilers.  Sometimes we even made our own parts using all kinds of materials including plastics.  The advent of plastic models made that job a lot easier, especially with diesels and steam locos.

                                                                                                                It does take a lot of time and effort but you can say you built it.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= ========= ========

                                                                                                                WK2SHR@... wrote:

                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find. 

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave 
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8897 From: Karl Peters Date: 3/4/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Dear Mike:
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                If you want to make driver tires, get some free-machining leaded steel.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                There are several small quantity steel suppliers out there, check in LIVE STEAM or HOME SHOP MACHINIST.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                While I am a professional machinist, at home I have both a Sherline mill and lathe. They are both well-built machines of excellent quality, and FUN to run!  Currently, I am building some compound cylinders for a pair of Mantua articulated, using an article in the April 1955 issue of MODEL RAILROADER for a guide.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Karl Peters
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8898 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/4/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                the late Jerry White told me there was a steel tube called "Shelby Tube" or something like that that the used for driver tires--he was a noted custom builder in O Scale and other sizes.  I think it was a "seamless" tube.   gj
                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:31 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Hi Vic,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Yes it is, remember that O scale tires are large, especially large steam engines, like Pacifics, Berks, Mikes and Northerns have larger diameter drivers, but that is how many of the modelers in O scale do it, there isn't a special kind of steel used, as O scale modelers,many of who love actual steel rail, have no qualms about using steel washers, nickle silver, which is a type of brass, is often too soft.......
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                There used to be a website where it showed how to do this, can't remember where it is though, but the guy would start with a large washer, yes, he would do the tire profile first, then bore it out from the center.........:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...>
                                                                                                                To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 12:02:45 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Hi Gary,

                                                                                                                Is this for real?  I did not think the metal that is used for common washers would be good enough for machining into tires.  Is there a type of washer I should look for and also what would be the setup for this?  Would you use a mandrel in the washer hole to turn the outer part of the tire and then chuck the result to bore out the center?  I have a Taig lathe at home with both a 3-jaw and a 4-jaw, so I wouldn't mind trying this.  I wouldn't mind turning my own tires.

                                                                                                                Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                From: betsy662@yahoo. com
                                                                                                                Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 03:05:58 -0800
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements


                                                                                                                Hi Guys an Girls,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                If your not affraid to work with steel, there are guys who can make driver tires  out of common washers, its done all the time in O scale, so I see no reason why it can't be one in HO scale as well........ ...:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 7:54:16 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                I think we can safely state that with the exception of making your own drivers, the rest of the models can be built with ordinary hand tools and commercial parts. Making a plastic superstructure is much easier than making it in metal.

                                                                                                                There are ways to make our own driver centers and use those with bored-out diesel locomotive wheels for the smaller drivers and -some- larger scale wheels. It gets a bit more exotic to make and build with the larger steamer driver tires.

                                                                                                                While we can build our own detail castings like airpumps and feedwater heaters from the vintage construction articles, I'm going to hang onto some old AHM carcasses for removing and then making duplicate detail parts from inexpensive RTV-casting kits on the day that detail parts are no longer available to me. The domes alone on the old carcasses will be handy....... . and castable.

                                                                                                                There is a $7 build a pair of detailed 4-4-0 passenger and freight train out of printed cardboard book that includes a complete station and watering stop. Once you've built the cardboard models, you can do the same in sheet plastics or metal with model RR mechanisms and underbody trucks, using a second book as the builders templates.

                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 3, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                Most of us oldtimers used saws, files, drills, chisels, knives and grinders along with drilling and tapping.  That was the only way we could get what we wanted that was anywhere near resembling models that were not yet produced.  We even spliced short cars to get cars of the correct length.  I have done the same with locomotive boilers.  Sometimes we even made our own parts using all kinds of materials including plastics.  The advent of plastic models made that job a lot easier, especially with diesels and steam locos.

                                                                                                                It does take a lot of time and effort but you can say you built it.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= ========= ========

                                                                                                                WK2SHR@... wrote:
                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find. 

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave 



                                                                                                                Windows Live™: Life without walls. Check it out.


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                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8899 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/4/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Hi Glenn,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Rod Miller now has taken up the mantle from the late Jerry White, his work can be found at rodmiller.com, Rod Miller learned directly from Jerry White...........:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:27:44 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                the late Jerry White told me there was a steel tube called "Shelby Tube" or something like that that the used for driver tires--he was a noted custom builder in O Scale and other sizes.  I think it was a "seamless" tube.   gj
                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:31 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Hi Vic,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Yes it is, remember that O scale tires are large, especially large steam engines, like Pacifics, Berks, Mikes and Northerns have larger diameter drivers, but that is how many of the modelers in O scale do it, there isn't a special kind of steel used, as O scale modelers,many of who love actual steel rail, have no qualms about using steel washers, nickle silver, which is a type of brass, is often too soft.......
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                There used to be a website where it showed how to do this, can't remember where it is though, but the guy would start with a large washer, yes, he would do the tire profile first, then bore it out from the center...... ...:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@hotmail. com>
                                                                                                                To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 12:02:45 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Hi Gary,

                                                                                                                Is this for real?  I did not think the metal that is used for common washers would be good enough for machining into tires.  Is there a type of washer I should look for and also what would be the setup for this?  Would you use a mandrel in the washer hole to turn the outer part of the tire and then chuck the result to bore out the center?  I have a Taig lathe at home with both a 3-jaw and a 4-jaw, so I wouldn't mind trying this.  I wouldn't mind turning my own tires.

                                                                                                                Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                From: betsy662@yahoo. com
                                                                                                                Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 03:05:58 -0800
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements


                                                                                                                Hi Guys an Girls,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                If your not affraid to work with steel, there are guys who can make driver tires  out of common washers, its done all the time in O scale, so I see no reason why it can't be one in HO scale as well........ ...:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 7:54:16 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                I think we can safely state that with the exception of making your own drivers, the rest of the models can be built with ordinary hand tools and commercial parts. Making a plastic superstructure is much easier than making it in metal.

                                                                                                                There are ways to make our own driver centers and use those with bored-out diesel locomotive wheels for the smaller drivers and -some- larger scale wheels. It gets a bit more exotic to make and build with the larger steamer driver tires.

                                                                                                                While we can build our own detail castings like airpumps and feedwater heaters from the vintage construction articles, I'm going to hang onto some old AHM carcasses for removing and then making duplicate detail parts from inexpensive RTV-casting kits on the day that detail parts are no longer available to me. The domes alone on the old carcasses will be handy....... . and castable.

                                                                                                                There is a $7 build a pair of detailed 4-4-0 passenger and freight train out of printed cardboard book that includes a complete station and watering stop. Once you've built the cardboard models, you can do the same in sheet plastics or metal with model RR mechanisms and underbody trucks, using a second book as the builders templates.

                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 3, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                Most of us oldtimers used saws, files, drills, chisels, knives and grinders along with drilling and tapping.  That was the only way we could get what we wanted that was anywhere near resembling models that were not yet produced.  We even spliced short cars to get cars of the correct length.  I have done the same with locomotive boilers.  Sometimes we even made our own parts using all kinds of materials including plastics.  The advent of plastic models made that job a lot easier, especially with diesels and steam locos.

                                                                                                                It does take a lot of time and effort but you can say you built it.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= ========= ========

                                                                                                                WK2SHR@... wrote:
                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find. 

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave 



                                                                                                                Windows Live™: Life without walls. Check it out.


                                                                                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.7/1983 - Release Date: 03/04/09 07:41:00
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8900 From: Chris B Date: 3/4/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                I'm sure turning tires from washers can be and has been done,
                                                                                                                but it seems to me turning tire flange profiles on tubing would make it much easier to turn perfectly matching flange profiles on one piece of tubing for multiple tires;
                                                                                                                and for boring out the inside diameter to fit the drivers outside diameter.  

                                                                                                                From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:27:44 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                the late Jerry White told me there was a steel tube called "Shelby Tube" or something like that that the used for driver tires--he was a noted custom builder in O Scale and other sizes.  I think it was a "seamless" tube.   gj
                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:31 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Hi Vic,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Yes it is, remember that O scale tires are large, especially large steam engines, like Pacifics, Berks, Mikes and Northerns have larger diameter drivers, but that is how many of the modelers in O scale do it, there isn't a special kind of steel used, as O scale modelers,many of who love actual steel rail, have no qualms about using steel washers, nickle silver, which is a type of brass, is often too soft.......
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                There used to be a website where it showed how to do this, can't remember where it is though, but the guy would start with a large washer, yes, he would do the tire profile first, then bore it out from the center...... ...:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@hotmail. com>
                                                                                                                To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 12:02:45 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Hi Gary,

                                                                                                                Is this for real?  I did not think the metal that is used for common washers would be good enough for machining into tires.  Is there a type of washer I should look for and also what would be the setup for this?  Would you use a mandrel in the washer hole to turn the outer part of the tire and then chuck the result to bore out the center?  I have a Taig lathe at home with both a 3-jaw and a 4-jaw, so I wouldn't mind trying this.  I wouldn't mind turning my own tires.

                                                                                                                Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                From: betsy662@yahoo. com
                                                                                                                Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 03:05:58 -0800
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements


                                                                                                                Hi Guys an Girls,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                If your not affraid to work with steel, there are guys who can make driver tires  out of common washers, its done all the time in O scale, so I see no reason why it can't be one in HO scale as well........ ...:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 7:54:16 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                I think we can safely state that with the exception of making your own drivers, the rest of the models can be built with ordinary hand tools and commercial parts. Making a plastic superstructure is much easier than making it in metal.

                                                                                                                There are ways to make our own driver centers and use those with bored-out diesel locomotive wheels for the smaller drivers and -some- larger scale wheels. It gets a bit more exotic to make and build with the larger steamer driver tires.

                                                                                                                While we can build our own detail castings like airpumps and feedwater heaters from the vintage construction articles, I'm going to hang onto some old AHM carcasses for removing and then making duplicate detail parts from inexpensive RTV-casting kits on the day that detail parts are no longer available to me. The domes alone on the old carcasses will be handy....... . and castable.

                                                                                                                There is a $7 build a pair of detailed 4-4-0 passenger and freight train out of printed cardboard book that includes a complete station and watering stop. Once you've built the cardboard models, you can do the same in sheet plastics or metal with model RR mechanisms and underbody trucks, using a second book as the builders templates.

                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 3, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                Most of us oldtimers used saws, files, drills, chisels, knives and grinders along with drilling and tapping.  That was the only way we could get what we wanted that was anywhere near resembling models that were not yet produced.  We even spliced short cars to get cars of the correct length.  I have done the same with locomotive boilers.  Sometimes we even made our own parts using all kinds of materials including plastics.  The advent of plastic models made that job a lot easier, especially with diesels and steam locos.

                                                                                                                It does take a lot of time and effort but you can say you built it.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= ========= ========

                                                                                                                WK2SHR@... wrote:
                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find. 

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave 



                                                                                                                Windows Live™: Life without walls. Check it out.


                                                                                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.7/1983 - Release Date: 03/04/09 07:41:00
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8901 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/4/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Scratching & Bashing (Was: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements)
                                                                                                                I recall many long years ago relocating a driver axle on a Zamak frame--O milled a rough slot to take a Mantua driver bearing with a Unimat, cleaned it up using a chain saw file (nice cylindrical file) and seated the bearing with JB Weld.  Also used the JB Weld to fill the old slot.  gj
                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 8:34 AM
                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Scratching & Bashing (Was: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements)

                                                                                                                Hi John,

                                                                                                                I am personally working on kitbashing a Mantua Big Six into a Southern A7 and am just about done with the superstructure.  I was going to ignore the driver spacing, because I can't really figure out a good way to do this in a Mantua frame and am not into building my own for this kitbash.  If I were to build my own frame, I would then build my own boiler, cab, tender, etc. also.

                                                                                                                Would you please share how you intend to change the driver spacing on your kitbash project?

                                                                                                                Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                From: sprinthag@...
                                                                                                                Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 15:52:44 +0000
                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Scratching & Bashing (Was: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements)

                                                                                                                Some how this thread went from the loss of Bowser kits & things to kitbashing all the way to building from scratch.

                                                                                                                Does a machine shop and a journeymen skill-set make it easier to fabricate a Allegheny from a box of brass pieces? Yeah, I would say it would. But is it necessary?

                                                                                                                I have been researching (and throwing out) old issues of MR. Mainly keeping pre 60's issues and anything with good kitbashing and/or scratch building articles, especially steam related.

                                                                                                                I have re-read several projects by Mel Thornburg and some by others such as Carl Traub. Neither of these gentlemen used much in the way of machine tools and their work was definitely up to standards. History is a great teacher.

                                                                                                                MR ran a series on building a USRA light mike in the 80's(?) by Gordon Oldegard that included machine tool type work. It was very detailed and probably a tad overdone but he sure built a beautiful model. MR and other mags have published scratchbuilding steam articles since that were no where near as dependant on machine room activities.

                                                                                                                I am starting on a project to kitbash GB&W 0-6-0 #145 (nee #60) in HO using a Mantua drive and a MDC boiler/cab, each with several modifications, including driver spacing changes. My only metal working machine tool is a drill press so most of this will be done using hand tools. I have been planning this for about three months and began collecting pieces about two months ago. Then MR introduced its kitbash contest so now my goal is to build it well enough to place in their contest (I alluded to this previously). We'll see how that works for me, but a decent model of 145 will be built.

                                                                                                                Now that (as usual) I have rambled on and on, the point that I am trying to make is that much can be done with simple tools if one has the drive and imagination to do so.

                                                                                                                Oh yes, there is a Yahoo brass loco builders group at http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/brasslocob uilders/
                                                                                                                Its message section is open for anyone to browse.

                                                                                                                Model Railroading is fun.

                                                                                                                John Hagen



                                                                                                                Windows Live™ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups to meet. Check it out.


                                                                                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.7/1983 - Release Date: 03/04/09 07:41:00
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8902 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/4/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                I can see it working with the thick, 'heavy-duty' washers,

                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 4, 2009, at 11:02 AM, Victor Bitleris wrote:

                                                                                                                Hi Gary,

                                                                                                                Is this for real?  I did not think the metal that is used for common washers would be good enough for machining into tires.  Is there a type of washer I should look for and also what would be the setup for this?  Would you use a mandrel in the washer hole to turn the outer part of the tire and then chuck the result to bore out the center?  I have a Taig lathe at home with both a 3-jaw and a 4-jaw, so I wouldn't mind trying this.  I wouldn't mind turning my own tires.

                                                                                                                Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                To: vintageHO


                                                                                                                Hi Guys an Girls,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                If your not affraid to work with steel, there are guys who can make driver tires  out of common washers, its done all the time in O scale, so I see no reason why it can't be one in HO scale as well........ ...:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8903 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/4/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                I'm sure there are several different ways of making drivers, using washers is just one of them.......;o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:39:49 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                I'm sure turning tires from washers can be and has been done,
                                                                                                                but it seems to me turning tire flange profiles on tubing would make it much easier to turn perfectly matching flange profiles on one piece of tubing for multiple tires;
                                                                                                                and for boring out the inside diameter to fit the drivers outside diameter.  

                                                                                                                From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:27:44 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                the late Jerry White told me there was a steel tube called "Shelby Tube" or something like that that the used for driver tires--he was a noted custom builder in O Scale and other sizes.  I think it was a "seamless" tube.   gj
                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:31 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Hi Vic,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Yes it is, remember that O scale tires are large, especially large steam engines, like Pacifics, Berks, Mikes and Northerns have larger diameter drivers, but that is how many of the modelers in O scale do it, there isn't a special kind of steel used, as O scale modelers,many of who love actual steel rail, have no qualms about using steel washers, nickle silver, which is a type of brass, is often too soft.......
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                There used to be a website where it showed how to do this, can't remember where it is though, but the guy would start with a large washer, yes, he would do the tire profile first, then bore it out from the center...... ...:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@hotmail. com>
                                                                                                                To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 12:02:45 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Hi Gary,

                                                                                                                Is this for real?  I did not think the metal that is used for common washers would be good enough for machining into tires.  Is there a type of washer I should look for and also what would be the setup for this?  Would you use a mandrel in the washer hole to turn the outer part of the tire and then chuck the result to bore out the center?  I have a Taig lathe at home with both a 3-jaw and a 4-jaw, so I wouldn't mind trying this.  I wouldn't mind turning my own tires.

                                                                                                                Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                From: betsy662@yahoo. com
                                                                                                                Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 03:05:58 -0800
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements


                                                                                                                Hi Guys an Girls,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                If your not affraid to work with steel, there are guys who can make driver tires  out of common washers, its done all the time in O scale, so I see no reason why it can't be one in HO scale as well........ ...:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 7:54:16 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                I think we can safely state that with the exception of making your own drivers, the rest of the models can be built with ordinary hand tools and commercial parts. Making a plastic superstructure is much easier than making it in metal.

                                                                                                                There are ways to make our own driver centers and use those with bored-out diesel locomotive wheels for the smaller drivers and -some- larger scale wheels. It gets a bit more exotic to make and build with the larger steamer driver tires.

                                                                                                                While we can build our own detail castings like airpumps and feedwater heaters from the vintage construction articles, I'm going to hang onto some old AHM carcasses for removing and then making duplicate detail parts from inexpensive RTV-casting kits on the day that detail parts are no longer available to me. The domes alone on the old carcasses will be handy....... . and castable.

                                                                                                                There is a $7 build a pair of detailed 4-4-0 passenger and freight train out of printed cardboard book that includes a complete station and watering stop. Once you've built the cardboard models, you can do the same in sheet plastics or metal with model RR mechanisms and underbody trucks, using a second book as the builders templates.

                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 3, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                Most of us oldtimers used saws, files, drills, chisels, knives and grinders along with drilling and tapping.  That was the only way we could get what we wanted that was anywhere near resembling models that were not yet produced.  We even spliced short cars to get cars of the correct length.  I have done the same with locomotive boilers.  Sometimes we even made our own parts using all kinds of materials including plastics.  The advent of plastic models made that job a lot easier, especially with diesels and steam locos.

                                                                                                                It does take a lot of time and effort but you can say you built it.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= ========= ========

                                                                                                                WK2SHR@... wrote:
                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find. 

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave 



                                                                                                                Windows Live™: Life without walls. Check it out.


                                                                                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.7/1983 - Release Date: 03/04/09 07:41:00
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8904 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/4/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Hi Mike,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Working with the thin chinese made washers that one buys at Wal-Mart, wouldn't work too well.........:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 8:57:37 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                I can see it working with the thick, 'heavy-duty' washers,


                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 4, 2009, at 11:02 AM, Victor Bitleris wrote:

                                                                                                                Hi Gary,

                                                                                                                Is this for real?  I did not think the metal that is used for common washers would be good enough for machining into tires.  Is there a type of washer I should look for and also what would be the setup for this?  Would you use a mandrel in the washer hole to turn the outer part of the tire and then chuck the result to bore out the center?  I have a Taig lathe at home with both a 3-jaw and a 4-jaw, so I wouldn't mind trying this.  I wouldn't mind turning my own tires.

                                                                                                                Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                To: vintageHO


                                                                                                                Hi Guys an Girls,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                If your not affraid to work with steel, there are guys who can make driver tires  out of common washers, its done all the time in O scale, so I see no reason why it can't be one in HO scale as well........ ...:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8905 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/4/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                Yes--I've met Rod, too.  Jerry taught me a lot about loco construction and performance.  gj
                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 4:33 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Hi Glenn,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Rod Miller now has taken up the mantle from the late Jerry White, his work can be found at rodmiller.com, Rod Miller learned directly from Jerry White...........:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:27:44 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                the late Jerry White told me there was a steel tube called "Shelby Tube" or something like that that the used for driver tires--he was a noted custom builder in O Scale and other sizes.  I think it was a "seamless" tube.   gj
                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:31 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Hi Vic,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Yes it is, remember that O scale tires are large, especially large steam engines, like Pacifics, Berks, Mikes and Northerns have larger diameter drivers, but that is how many of the modelers in O scale do it, there isn't a special kind of steel used, as O scale modelers,many of who love actual steel rail, have no qualms about using steel washers, nickle silver, which is a type of brass, is often too soft.......
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                There used to be a website where it showed how to do this, can't remember where it is though, but the guy would start with a large washer, yes, he would do the tire profile first, then bore it out from the center...... ...:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@hotmail. com>
                                                                                                                To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 12:02:45 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                Hi Gary,

                                                                                                                Is this for real?  I did not think the metal that is used for common washers would be good enough for machining into tires.  Is there a type of washer I should look for and also what would be the setup for this?  Would you use a mandrel in the washer hole to turn the outer part of the tire and then chuck the result to bore out the center?  I have a Taig lathe at home with both a 3-jaw and a 4-jaw, so I wouldn't mind trying this.  I wouldn't mind turning my own tires.

                                                                                                                Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                From: betsy662@yahoo. com
                                                                                                                Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 03:05:58 -0800
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements


                                                                                                                Hi Guys an Girls,
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                If your not affraid to work with steel, there are guys who can make driver tires  out of common washers, its done all the time in O scale, so I see no reason why it can't be one in HO scale as well........ ...:o)
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 7:54:16 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                I think we can safely state that with the exception of making your own drivers, the rest of the models can be built with ordinary hand tools and commercial parts. Making a plastic superstructure is much easier than making it in metal.

                                                                                                                There are ways to make our own driver centers and use those with bored-out diesel locomotive wheels for the smaller drivers and -some- larger scale wheels. It gets a bit more exotic to make and build with the larger steamer driver tires.

                                                                                                                While we can build our own detail castings like airpumps and feedwater heaters from the vintage construction articles, I'm going to hang onto some old AHM carcasses for removing and then making duplicate detail parts from inexpensive RTV-casting kits on the day that detail parts are no longer available to me. The domes alone on the old carcasses will be handy....... . and castable.

                                                                                                                There is a $7 build a pair of detailed 4-4-0 passenger and freight train out of printed cardboard book that includes a complete station and watering stop. Once you've built the cardboard models, you can do the same in sheet plastics or metal with model RR mechanisms and underbody trucks, using a second book as the builders templates.

                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 3, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                Most of us oldtimers used saws, files, drills, chisels, knives and grinders along with drilling and tapping.  That was the only way we could get what we wanted that was anywhere near resembling models that were not yet produced.  We even spliced short cars to get cars of the correct length.  I have done the same with locomotive boilers.  Sometimes we even made our own parts using all kinds of materials including plastics.  The advent of plastic models made that job a lot easier, especially with diesels and steam locos.

                                                                                                                It does take a lot of time and effort but you can say you built it.

                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= ========= ========

                                                                                                                WK2SHR@... wrote:
                                                                                                                John:

                                                                                                                More to the point, kitbashing in metal (steam locos) requires some machining
                                                                                                                or machinest, or metal smith working ability. THAT's the problem -- no body
                                                                                                                does this anymore, at least not privately, and tools to do this kind of work are
                                                                                                                impossible to find. 

                                                                                                                The only metal workers (machinests) left are mostly at the industrial level
                                                                                                                and of course, those are far too expensive for us to use in the hobby world,
                                                                                                                and most of those don't lend themselves well to our usage.

                                                                                                                Just a thought,

                                                                                                                Dave 



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                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8906 From: Mike Date: 3/5/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                A Shelby Tube is nothing more then a low carbon (1015 - 1026 chemistry) standard seamless tube which really is not referred to by that name any longer. Most seamless tubes have been replaced by DOM (drawn-over-mandrel) tubes. In most cases a DOM Tube is what is currently available in standard chemistries of 1026. If you want to know more let me know.

                                                                                                                I put a copy of an HO model I saw at one time in the photos under Ohio Seamless Tube Gondola. Ohio Seamless Tube was the company in Shelby, Ohio. It still exists and is called Areclor-Mittal.

                                                                                                                Your tubing supply expert.

                                                                                                                Mike Spanier

                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > the late Jerry White told me there was a steel tube called "Shelby Tube" or something like that that the used for driver tires--he was a noted custom builder in O Scale and other sizes. I think it was a "seamless" tube. gj
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8907 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 3/5/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                So, can you get us some OSTUCO decals?
                                                                                                                (VBG!)
                                                                                                                Actually, even though I have been trying to figure out the lettering for years, I think I will need to break down and draw up my own and print them on decal paper.  I have always wanted one of these cars, but have always missed out on the Varney ones going on ebay. 

                                                                                                                But, getting back to the seamless tube point, would this make a good tire material to chuck in a lathe and if yes, where can one purchase these.  Are they pretty much available in most metropolitan areas?  If not, I was going to get some 1 inch leadloy rod blanks from mail order and use that for turning tires.  I have never done this, but was told this is the best way to go.
                                                                                                                Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                From: hspanier@...
                                                                                                                Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 10:55:48 +0000
                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                A Shelby Tube is nothing more then a low carbon (1015 - 1026 chemistry) standard seamless tube which really is not referred to by that name any longer. Most seamless tubes have been replaced by DOM (drawn-over- mandrel) tubes. In most cases a DOM Tube is what is currently available in standard chemistries of 1026. If you want to know more let me know.

                                                                                                                I put a copy of an HO model I saw at one time in the photos under Ohio Seamless Tube Gondola. Ohio Seamless Tube was the company in Shelby, Ohio. It still exists and is called Areclor-Mittal.

                                                                                                                Your tubing supply expert.

                                                                                                                Mike Spanier

                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > the late Jerry White told me there was a steel tube called "Shelby Tube" or something like that that the used for driver tires--he was a noted custom builder in O Scale and other sizes. I think it was a "seamless" tube. gj



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                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8908 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 3/5/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                There is a bit too much for me to read on this thread, but maybe someone could start-up a company and make these parts for the hobby.

                                                                                                                Earl Poulsen
                                                                                                                Vancouver, WA


                                                                                                                LAT 45 degrees, 40 minutes, 6 seconds X LONG Minus 122 degrees, 39 minutes and 46 seconds
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8909 From: John Hagen Date: 3/5/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Earl,

                                                                                                                Many aprts ofr the early diecast locomotives are available through yardbird.com

                                                                                                                They are reporducing some parts themselves and possibly could add more if that becomes necessary in the future.

                                                                                                                John Hagen
                                                                                                                Saint Francis, WI

                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Earl Poulsen <shyguy_98665@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > There is a bit too much for me to read on this thread, but maybe someone could start-up a company and make these parts for the hobby.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Earl Poulsen
                                                                                                                > Vancouver, WA
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > LAT 45 degrees, 40 minutes, 6 seconds X LONG Minus 122 degrees, 39 minutes and 46 seconds
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8910 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/5/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Mike
                                                                                                                Where I work we get Metal coils from that plant, very intresxting indeed
                                                                                                                Chrlie W.
                                                                                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                > From: Mike <hspanier@...>
                                                                                                                > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                > Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 10:55:48 -0000
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > A Shelby Tube is nothing more then a low carbon (1015 - 1026
                                                                                                                > chemistry) standard seamless tube which really is not referred to
                                                                                                                > by that name any longer. Most seamless tubes have been replaced by
                                                                                                                > DOM (drawn-over-mandrel) tubes. In most cases a DOM Tube is what is
                                                                                                                > currently available in standard chemistries of 1026. If you want to
                                                                                                                > know more let me know.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > I put a copy of an HO model I saw at one time in the photos under
                                                                                                                > Ohio Seamless Tube Gondola. Ohio Seamless Tube was the company in
                                                                                                                > Shelby, Ohio. It still exists and is called Areclor-Mittal.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Your tubing supply expert.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Mike Spanier
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > the late Jerry White told me there was a steel tube called
                                                                                                                > > "Shelby Tube" or something like that that the used for driver
                                                                                                                > > tires--he was a noted custom builder in O Scale and other sizes.
                                                                                                                > > I think it was a "seamless" tube. gj
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >


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                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8911 From: Mike Sloane Date: 3/5/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Ohio Seamless Tube car (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product
                                                                                                                If you are looking for the lettering on an OSTUCO gon, I have a 40'
                                                                                                                version that I think was one of the last cars made by Varney(?). Not
                                                                                                                knowing that there would ever be anything like a value to "vintage"
                                                                                                                stuff, I weathered it rather heavily. The interesting thing about the
                                                                                                                car is that, while it is "selectively compressed" from the prototype 50'
                                                                                                                car, it came with a modified open end so that pairs could be used
                                                                                                                back-to-back for longer tubes. I also have an image of the prototype
                                                                                                                care around somewhere, but I can't find it.

                                                                                                                An image of the model can be seen at
                                                                                                                <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/revellenginehouse.html>,
                                                                                                                but if anyone wants a better image of just the car, I would be happy to
                                                                                                                provide - contact me off-line at <mikesloane@...>.

                                                                                                                Mike

                                                                                                                Victor Bitleris wrote:
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > So, can you get us some OSTUCO decals?
                                                                                                                > (VBG!)
                                                                                                                > Actually, even though I have been trying to figure out the lettering for
                                                                                                                > years, I think I will need to break down and draw up my own and print
                                                                                                                > them on decal paper. I have always wanted one of these cars, but have
                                                                                                                > always missed out on the Varney ones going on ebay.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > But, getting back to the seamless tube point, would this make a good
                                                                                                                > tire material to chuck in a lathe and if yes, where can one purchase
                                                                                                                > these. Are they pretty much available in most metropolitan areas? If
                                                                                                                > not, I was going to get some 1 inch leadloy rod blanks from mail order
                                                                                                                > and use that for turning tires. I have never done this, but was told
                                                                                                                > this is the best way to go.
                                                                                                                > Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8912 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 3/5/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Prod
                                                                                                                You were not kidding, It really is weathered.  I have always heard that REAL model railroaders do weather their rolling stock.  I just haven't gotten that far yet.  That is a very nice setting in the photo.  I see you have the Revell Engine house on the layout also.  I love that engine house and have one that is not built yet, but when I expand my layout after child number 4 moves out on his own I will build it.  I will be totally re-arranging the bonus room and maybe even dismantling the current layout.  I do have some photos of the Varney cars and the original Model Railroader article with the OSTUCO gon, so I do have enough to go on.  I am sure it wasn't worth the effort for any decal manufacturers to print a bunch of these out.

                                                                                                                Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                From: mikesloane@...
                                                                                                                Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 14:49:16 -0500
                                                                                                                Subject: Ohio Seamless Tube car (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                If you are looking for the lettering on an OSTUCO gon, I have a 40'
                                                                                                                version that I think was one of the last cars made by Varney(?). Not
                                                                                                                knowing that there would ever be anything like a value to "vintage"
                                                                                                                stuff, I weathered it rather heavily. The interesting thing about the
                                                                                                                car is that, while it is "selectively compressed" from the prototype 50'
                                                                                                                car, it came with a modified open end so that pairs could be used
                                                                                                                back-to-back for longer tubes. I also have an image of the prototype
                                                                                                                care around somewhere, but I can't find it.

                                                                                                                An image of the model can be seen at
                                                                                                                <http://public. fotki.com/ mikesloane/ vintage-model- rr/revellengineh ouse.html>,
                                                                                                                but if anyone wants a better image of just the car, I would be happy to
                                                                                                                provide - contact me off-line at <mikesloane@verizon. com>.

                                                                                                                Mike

                                                                                                                Victor Bitleris wrote:
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > So, can you get us some OSTUCO decals?
                                                                                                                > (VBG!)
                                                                                                                > Actually, even though I have been trying to figure out the lettering for
                                                                                                                > years, I think I will need to break down and draw up my own and print
                                                                                                                > them on decal paper. I have always wanted one of these cars, but have
                                                                                                                > always missed out on the Varney ones going on ebay.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > But, getting back to the seamless tube point, would this make a good
                                                                                                                > tire material to chuck in a lathe and if yes, where can one purchase
                                                                                                                > these. Are they pretty much available in most metropolitan areas? If
                                                                                                                > not, I was going to get some 1 inch leadloy rod blanks from mail order
                                                                                                                > and use that for turning tires. I have never done this, but was told
                                                                                                                > this is the best way to go.
                                                                                                                > Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC
                                                                                                                >


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                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8913 From: keith gutshall Date: 3/5/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Hello Victor
                                                                                                                 I use a lot of DOM tube, mostly for shaft for machines.
                                                                                                                 I have been getting it from   www.speedymetals.com
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                 They seem to have good prices.,they only sell it by the foot.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Keith

                                                                                                                Deep Run Portage
                                                                                                                Back Shop
                                                                                                                " The Lizard Works"

                                                                                                                --- On Thu, 3/5/09, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                From: Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...>
                                                                                                                Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Date: Thursday, March 5, 2009, 11:03 AM

                                                                                                                So, can you get us some OSTUCO decals?
                                                                                                                (VBG!)
                                                                                                                Actually, even though I have been trying to figure out the lettering for years, I think I will need to break down and draw up my own and print them on decal paper.  I have always wanted one of these cars, but have always missed out on the Varney ones going on ebay. 

                                                                                                                But, getting back to the seamless tube point, would this make a good tire material to chuck in a lathe and if yes, where can one purchase these.  Are they pretty much available in most metropolitan areas?  If not, I was going to get some 1 inch leadloy rod blanks from mail order and use that for turning tires.  I have never done this, but was told this is the best way to go.
                                                                                                                Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                From: hspanier@aol. com
                                                                                                                Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 10:55:48 +0000
                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements

                                                                                                                A Shelby Tube is nothing more then a low carbon (1015 - 1026 chemistry) standard seamless tube which really is not referred to by that name any longer. Most seamless tubes have been replaced by DOM (drawn-over- mandrel) tubes. In most cases a DOM Tube is what is currently available in standard chemistries of 1026. If you want to know more let me know.

                                                                                                                I put a copy of an HO model I saw at one time in the photos under Ohio Seamless Tube Gondola. Ohio Seamless Tube was the company in Shelby, Ohio. It still exists and is called Areclor-Mittal.

                                                                                                                Your tubing supply expert.

                                                                                                                Mike Spanier

                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > the late Jerry White told me there was a steel tube called "Shelby Tube" or something like that that the used for driver tires--he was a noted custom builder in O Scale and other sizes. I think it was a "seamless" tube. gj



                                                                                                                Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. Find out more.

                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8914 From: Jeff Cornelius Date: 3/5/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                That would be http://yardbirdtrains.com/, yardbird .com is a publisher. Thanks for pointing us down the trail, though!

                                                                                                                Jeff Cornelius

                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Earl,
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Many aprts ofr the early diecast locomotives are available through yardbird.com
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > They are reporducing some parts themselves and possibly could add more if that becomes necessary in the future.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > John Hagen
                                                                                                                > Saint Francis, WI
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Earl Poulsen <shyguy_98665@> wrote:
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > There is a bit too much for me to read on this thread, but maybe someone could start-up a company and make these parts for the hobby.
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > Earl Poulsen
                                                                                                                > > Vancouver, WA
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                > > LAT 45 degrees, 40 minutes, 6 seconds X LONG Minus 122 degrees, 39 minutes and 46 seconds
                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8915 From: John Hagen Date: 3/5/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Oops, Sorry.

                                                                                                                Thanks for correcting me.

                                                                                                                Thats what happens when you let a geezer use a computer.

                                                                                                                John Hagen

                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Cornelius" <baldwinloco@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > That would be http://yardbirdtrains.com/, yardbird .com is a publisher. Thanks for pointing us down the trail, though!
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Jeff Cornelius
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8916 From: Karl Peters Date: 3/5/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: FINE WOODWORKING article
                                                                                                                Dear Chris B.:
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Can you remember what year that was?  I have the article on making your own steel. {"Steeling Away"  FINE WOODWORKING, May 1980; reprinted in "Fine Woodworking on:
                                                                                                                Hand Tools.}
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                It does sound like a classic, much like the [in]famous one about using compressed air to hold up your house so you can remove those pesky support pillars in the basement.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Sadly, those kind of articles seemed to have gone out of style these days.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Karl Peters
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8917 From: Chris B Date: 3/5/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: FINE WOODWORKING article
                                                                                                                Karl, It was around 80 or 81, I can remember it was not at all a serious article, a 1 pg pc towards the front with a graphic cartoon of the guy's backyard being dug up by a backhoe or something similar.

                                                                                                                I don't know if that kind of article has gone away, MR's latest April issue has Tony Koester selling off his new layout to switch to 3 rail o ga.....

                                                                                                                fwiw, before I made my own turning chisels and plane irons out of leaf spring steel, I did make a rocking chair with hand tools from cherry trees I cut down in WV by hand with a two man 8' saw...

                                                                                                                now I just want to sit in my comfy drafting stool and bash OMI and Hobbytown drive trains into good pulling switchers with heavy cast frames and diecast Cary, Ivers, and MEW shells.

                                                                                                                for me, that's industrial progress!

                                                                                                                From: Karl Peters <krlpeters@...>
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2009 6:35:42 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] FINE WOODWORKING article

                                                                                                                Dear Chris B.:
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Can you remember what year that was?  I have the article on making your own steel. {"Steeling Away"  FINE WOODWORKING, May 1980; reprinted in "Fine Woodworking on:
                                                                                                                Hand Tools.}
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                It does sound like a classic, much like the [in]famous one about using compressed air to hold up your house so you can remove those pesky support pillars in the basement.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Sadly, those kind of articles seemed to have gone out of style these days.
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Karl Peters
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8918 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/5/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                I would do it as a hobby once I get a big lottery win!

                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                On Mar 5, 2009, at 10:31 AM, Earl Poulsen wrote:

                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > There is a bit too much for me to read on this thread, but maybe
                                                                                                                > someone could start-up a company and make these parts for the hobby.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Earl Poulsen
                                                                                                                > Vancouver, WA
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8919 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/5/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Prod
                                                                                                                Actually the photo that Mike posted (click on "new photos" on the group home
                                                                                                                page) is of MY car, you can see the same picture in the "zdon_dellmann's
                                                                                                                stuff-Varney" album in the photos section.

                                                                                                                Varney actually made two versions. This one with the "arch" on the end, and
                                                                                                                a later one which was the same lettering but just on a standard Varney
                                                                                                                gondola.

                                                                                                                I seem to to recall that at one time Walthers also made decals for it.

                                                                                                                Don

                                                                                                                Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                Owner
                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 1:49 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Ohio Seamless Tube car (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product
                                                                                                                Retirements


                                                                                                                > If you are looking for the lettering on an OSTUCO gon, I have a 40'
                                                                                                                > version that I think was one of the last cars made by Varney(?). Not
                                                                                                                > knowing that there would ever be anything like a value to "vintage"
                                                                                                                > stuff, I weathered it rather heavily. The interesting thing about the
                                                                                                                > car is that, while it is "selectively compressed" from the prototype 50'
                                                                                                                > car, it came with a modified open end so that pairs could be used
                                                                                                                > back-to-back for longer tubes. I also have an image of the prototype
                                                                                                                > care around somewhere, but I can't find it.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > An image of the model can be seen at
                                                                                                                > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/revellenginehouse.html>,
                                                                                                                > but if anyone wants a better image of just the car, I would be happy to
                                                                                                                > provide - contact me off-line at <mikesloane@...>.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Mike
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Victor Bitleris wrote:
                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                >> So, can you get us some OSTUCO decals?
                                                                                                                >> (VBG!)
                                                                                                                >> Actually, even though I have been trying to figure out the lettering for
                                                                                                                >> years, I think I will need to break down and draw up my own and print
                                                                                                                >> them on decal paper. I have always wanted one of these cars, but have
                                                                                                                >> always missed out on the Varney ones going on ebay.
                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                >> But, getting back to the seamless tube point, would this make a good
                                                                                                                >> tire material to chuck in a lathe and if yes, where can one purchase
                                                                                                                >> these. Are they pretty much available in most metropolitan areas? If
                                                                                                                >> not, I was going to get some 1 inch leadloy rod blanks from mail order
                                                                                                                >> and use that for turning tires. I have never done this, but was told
                                                                                                                >> this is the best way to go.
                                                                                                                >> Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC
                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8920 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/5/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Pardon me while I go out in the back yard and slaughter a hog so I can smoke
                                                                                                                some bacon for tomorrow's breakfast.

                                                                                                                Don

                                                                                                                Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                Owner
                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:36 AM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements


                                                                                                                C'mon Gary, using washer stock is tire-bashing, not scratch building! <G>

                                                                                                                After serving an apprenticeship in my youth doing fine antique furniture
                                                                                                                restoration, and having my own shop for several years, I started doing the
                                                                                                                shop drawings and fabricating high-end millwork for historic houses being
                                                                                                                restored under govt grants. Because the work was government funded, it had
                                                                                                                to be done to museum specs.

                                                                                                                Since I had to use authentic tools and methods to fabricate ornate
                                                                                                                staircases and external trim turnings and moldings, sometimes I had to make
                                                                                                                my own tools. I recycled old car leaf spring steel to make plane irons and
                                                                                                                large scale turning tools. That's when I started working metal with hand
                                                                                                                tools.

                                                                                                                I thought I was pretty sharp (!) till that year's April issue of Fine
                                                                                                                Woodworking magazine had na article about a guy who not only grew the trees
                                                                                                                from which he made his socket chisel handles, but who also went every summer
                                                                                                                to the mines to get the ore to make the iron to forge the steel to make the
                                                                                                                chisels.

                                                                                                                I felt outclassed till someone pointed out it was the April issue!
                                                                                                                Chris B.

                                                                                                                (text bobbitted)
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8921 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/5/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                didn't someone have a kit out for an OST gon with a drop end and a hoist at
                                                                                                                one end? Sort of a square arch? gj
                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                From: "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...>
                                                                                                                >> I put a copy of an HO model I saw at one time in the photos under
                                                                                                                >> Ohio Seamless Tube Gondola. Ohio Seamless Tube was the company in
                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8922 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/5/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Prod
                                                                                                                That's the car I was thinking of--Thanks for anticipating my question. gj

                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 11:49 AM
                                                                                                                Subject: Ohio Seamless Tube car (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product
                                                                                                                Retirements


                                                                                                                > If you are looking for the lettering on an OSTUCO gon, I have a 40'
                                                                                                                > version that I think was one of the last cars made by Varney(?). Not
                                                                                                                > knowing that there would ever be anything like a value to "vintage"
                                                                                                                > stuff, I weathered it rather heavily. The interesting thing about the
                                                                                                                > car is that, while it is "selectively compressed" from the prototype 50'
                                                                                                                > car, it came with a modified open end so that pairs could be used
                                                                                                                > back-to-back for longer tubes. I also have an image of the prototype
                                                                                                                > care around somewhere, but I can't find it.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > An image of the model can be seen at
                                                                                                                > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/revellenginehouse.html>,
                                                                                                                > but if anyone wants a better image of just the car, I would be happy to
                                                                                                                > provide - contact me off-line at <mikesloane@...>.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Mike
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Victor Bitleris wrote:
                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                >> So, can you get us some OSTUCO decals?
                                                                                                                >> (VBG!)
                                                                                                                >> Actually, even though I have been trying to figure out the lettering for
                                                                                                                >> years, I think I will need to break down and draw up my own and print
                                                                                                                >> them on decal paper. I have always wanted one of these cars, but have
                                                                                                                >> always missed out on the Varney ones going on ebay.
                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                >> But, getting back to the seamless tube point, would this make a good
                                                                                                                >> tire material to chuck in a lathe and if yes, where can one purchase
                                                                                                                >> these. Are they pretty much available in most metropolitan areas? If
                                                                                                                >> not, I was going to get some 1 inch leadloy rod blanks from mail order
                                                                                                                >> and use that for turning tires. I have never done this, but was told
                                                                                                                >> this is the best way to go.
                                                                                                                >> Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC
                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >


                                                                                                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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                                                                                                                07:54:00
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8923 From: John Hagen Date: 3/5/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Uuuum, Don,

                                                                                                                I believe City of Milwaukee pasted an ordinance against hog slaughtering that took affect on Jan 1, 2009. As I remember (since, as you know, I live a major suburb), it was one of the last ordinances drafted by Michael McGee.

                                                                                                                Kind of surprised me as I thought he didn't like hogs. Wasn't he one of the guys that would go around saying things like "death to the pigs"?

                                                                                                                Just don't want to see you getting in trouble, Don.

                                                                                                                John Hagen
                                                                                                                Saint Francis, the sunny spot on the soutside, W

                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Pardon me while I go out in the back yard and slaughter a hog so I can smoke
                                                                                                                > some bacon for tomorrow's breakfast.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Don
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                > don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                > Owner
                                                                                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                > From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                > Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:36 AM
                                                                                                                > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > C'mon Gary, using washer stock is tire-bashing, not scratch building! <G>
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > After serving an apprenticeship in my youth doing fine antique furniture
                                                                                                                > restoration, and having my own shop for several years, I started doing the
                                                                                                                > shop drawings and fabricating high-end millwork for historic houses being
                                                                                                                > restored under govt grants. Because the work was government funded, it had
                                                                                                                > to be done to museum specs.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Since I had to use authentic tools and methods to fabricate ornate
                                                                                                                > staircases and external trim turnings and moldings, sometimes I had to make
                                                                                                                > my own tools. I recycled old car leaf spring steel to make plane irons and
                                                                                                                > large scale turning tools. That's when I started working metal with hand
                                                                                                                > tools.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > I thought I was pretty sharp (!) till that year's April issue of Fine
                                                                                                                > Woodworking magazine had na article about a guy who not only grew the trees
                                                                                                                > from which he made his socket chisel handles, but who also went every summer
                                                                                                                > to the mines to get the ore to make the iron to forge the steel to make the
                                                                                                                > chisels.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > I felt outclassed till someone pointed out it was the April issue!
                                                                                                                > Chris B.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > (text bobbitted)
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8924 From: Mike Date: 3/6/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Steel Bar vs Steel Tube // Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                In my opinion you are much better off starting with a free machining bar such as the ledloy (12L14), 1215 or even a standard 1018. All should be asked for cold drawn. You will have best luck finding it in a suitable diameter starting from the 1018. Your problem will be you are going to be making alot of wheels from that steel.

                                                                                                                Tubing will be more of a problem due to the outside diameter and inside diameter you will need. It will be much harder to find.

                                                                                                                Let us know what you decide to do.

                                                                                                                Mike Spanier

                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > So, can you get us some OSTUCO decals?
                                                                                                                > (VBG!)
                                                                                                                > Actually, even though I have been trying to figure out the lettering for years, I think I will need to break down and draw up my own and print them on decal paper. I have always wanted one of these cars, but have always missed out on the Varney ones going on ebay.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > But, getting back to the seamless tube point, would this make a good tire material to chuck in a lathe and if yes, where can one purchase these. Are they pretty much available in most metropolitan areas? If not, I was going to get some 1 inch leadloy rod blanks from mail order and use that for turning tires. I have never done this, but was told this is the best way to go.
                                                                                                                > Regards, Vic Bitleris
                                                                                                                > Raleigh, NC
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                > From: hspanier@...
                                                                                                                > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 10:55:48 +0000
                                                                                                                > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                A Shelby Tube is nothing more then a low carbon (1015 - 1026 chemistry) standard seamless tube which really is not referred to by that name any longer. Most seamless tubes have been replaced by DOM (drawn-over-mandrel) tubes. In most cases a DOM Tube is what is currently available in standard chemistries of 1026. If you want to know more let me know.

                                                                                                                > I put a copy of an HO model I saw at one time in the photos under Ohio Seamless Tube Gondola. Ohio Seamless Tube was the company in Shelby, Ohio. It still exists and is called Areclor-Mittal.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                Your tubing supply expert.

                                                                                                                > Mike Spanier
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8925 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/6/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Varney made a 40' version.

                                                                                                                Go to the group home page and click on "new photos"

                                                                                                                Don
                                                                                                                Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                Owner
                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 6:42 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements


                                                                                                                > didn't someone have a kit out for an OST gon with a drop end and a hoist
                                                                                                                > at
                                                                                                                > one end? Sort of a square arch? gj
                                                                                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                > From: "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...>
                                                                                                                >>> I put a copy of an HO model I saw at one time in the photos under
                                                                                                                >>> Ohio Seamless Tube Gondola. Ohio Seamless Tube was the company in
                                                                                                                >>>
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8926 From: Mike Sloane Date: 3/6/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Prod
                                                                                                                Well, what a coincidence, Don - and yours looks much cleaner than mine -
                                                                                                                it must be newer. :-) I just posted a somewhat closer view of my car
                                                                                                                under the "Mike Sloane's vintage stuff" album (which shows it next to an
                                                                                                                Authenticast depressed center flat). Interestingly, the "arch" at the
                                                                                                                end seems to be slightly different from the one on your car - but mine,
                                                                                                                except for the Kaydee couplers (and the crude weathering), is the way I
                                                                                                                assembled it out of the box.

                                                                                                                I am still looking for an image of the prototype car, if anyone has one.
                                                                                                                I am curious as to the functions of the "arch" and the mechanism at the
                                                                                                                back in place of a solid end.

                                                                                                                Mike

                                                                                                                Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Actually the photo that Mike posted (click on "new photos" on the group
                                                                                                                > home
                                                                                                                > page) is of MY car, you can see the same picture in the "zdon_dellmann's
                                                                                                                > stuff-Varney" album in the photos section.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Varney actually made two versions. This one with the "arch" on the end, and
                                                                                                                > a later one which was the same lettering but just on a standard Varney
                                                                                                                > gondola.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > I seem to to recall that at one time Walthers also made decals for it.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Don
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8927 From: prr_homewood_jct Date: 3/6/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: AHM chemical container car question
                                                                                                                hello, my question is , what purpose did the design of the car side frame work serve like the v shaped openings and was this loaded from the top or thru the sides ? Maybe unloaded thru the sides ? I've placed a photo of the car in the photos section too...
                                                                                                                thanks, James Gitts
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8928 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 3/6/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: AHM chemical container car question
                                                                                                                How is photo listed?
                                                                                                                Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                =======================================

                                                                                                                prr_homewood_jct wrote:

                                                                                                                hello, my question is , what purpose did the design of the car side frame work serve like the v shaped openings and was this loaded from the top or thru the sides ? Maybe unloaded thru the sides ? I've placed a photo of the car in the photos section too...
                                                                                                                thanks, James Gitts
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8929 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/6/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Don
                                                                                                                You are just too BAAAAD!
                                                                                                                Charlie W.
                                                                                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                > From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 18:41:34 -0600
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Pardon me while I go out in the back yard and slaughter a hog so I can smoke
                                                                                                                > some bacon for tomorrow's breakfast.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Don
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                > don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                > Owner
                                                                                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                > From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                > Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:36 AM
                                                                                                                > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > C'mon Gary, using washer stock is tire-bashing, not scratch building! <G>
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > After serving an apprenticeship in my youth doing fine antique furniture
                                                                                                                > restoration, and having my own shop for several years, I started doing the
                                                                                                                > shop drawings and fabricating high-end millwork for historic houses being
                                                                                                                > restored under govt grants. Because the work was government funded, it had
                                                                                                                > to be done to museum specs.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Since I had to use authentic tools and methods to fabricate ornate
                                                                                                                > staircases and external trim turnings and moldings, sometimes I had to make
                                                                                                                > my own tools. I recycled old car leaf spring steel to make plane irons and
                                                                                                                > large scale turning tools. That's when I started working metal with hand
                                                                                                                > tools.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > I thought I was pretty sharp (!) till that year's April issue of Fine
                                                                                                                > Woodworking magazine had na article about a guy who not only grew the trees
                                                                                                                > from which he made his socket chisel handles, but who also went every summer
                                                                                                                > to the mines to get the ore to make the iron to forge the steel to make the
                                                                                                                > chisels.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > I felt outclassed till someone pointed out it was the April issue!
                                                                                                                > Chris B.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > (text bobbitted)
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >


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                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8930 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 3/6/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Fwd: Bowser Product Retirements
                                                                                                                Thanks for mentioning Yardbirds. I have bought items time-to-time from them. I thought my suggestion would help some person looking for a job. Guess Yardbirds nixes that idea.

                                                                                                                I hope they can come up with Belpaire fireboxes for various models. I model mostly the Great Northern and the Spokane, Portland,& Seattle, which both used Belpaires.

                                                                                                                Earl Poulsen
                                                                                                                Vancouver,WA

                                                                                                                LAT 45 degrees, 40 minutes, 6 seconds X LONG Minus 122 degrees, 39 minutes and 46 seconds
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8931 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/6/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Layout advances
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                 I have put my vintage HO collecting on hold for the most part as I concentrate on getting my new layout up and running. I was able to run a freight train of about 15 cars on what is the main line, up one grade, crossing where the trestle will be and down the other grade. Since I don't collect freight cars for my vintage collection I had to swipe some out of a few sets that have them. Mostly Marx and Revell.
                                                                                                                       I ran a post war Super Varney Mikado with the V-2 motor. It had no trouble pulling this small amount of cars at a nice slow pace. Since I have started to "shape" my mountains and have areas that are close to edges (2" to 4") built up on the outside so I don't have to worry about an engine trying to fly. I'm about half way finished with this shaping and also have all the remote switch track wired. It is nice to sit and run the train through what will be the passenger train run by and station. Yes I intend to run vintage shorty (60') passenger trains, mostly Penn Line but also a set of Pennsy American Beauty that I assembled. Since the rail yard is finished track wise I can also do some switching if I want.
                                                                                                                      Not having had a layout in my new home for 5 years it is nice to sit back and watch them run. I won't stop my vintage collecting but it's a nice break to be able to run my vintage collection, steam and diesel, pulling vintage HO cars on vintage brass track and only using DC power like it use to be. No special added electronics.
                                                                                                                     Now this is not to knock anyone else who enjoys doing things differently. More power to you. This is my preference and what I enjoy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8932 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/6/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser Prod
                                                                                                                Yours is just a photo of the car later in it's life (you'll notice they have
                                                                                                                the same car number) <G>

                                                                                                                Don

                                                                                                                Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                Owner
                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 7:16 AM
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Fwd: Bowser
                                                                                                                Product Retirements


                                                                                                                > Well, what a coincidence, Don - and yours looks much cleaner than mine -
                                                                                                                > it must be newer. :-) I just posted a somewhat closer view of my car
                                                                                                                > under the "Mike Sloane's vintage stuff" album (which shows it next to an
                                                                                                                > Authenticast depressed center flat). Interestingly, the "arch" at the
                                                                                                                > end seems to be slightly different from the one on your car - but mine,
                                                                                                                > except for the Kaydee couplers (and the crude weathering), is the way I
                                                                                                                > assembled it out of the box.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > I am still looking for an image of the prototype car, if anyone has one.
                                                                                                                > I am curious as to the functions of the "arch" and the mechanism at the
                                                                                                                > back in place of a solid end.
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Mike
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                >> Actually the photo that Mike posted (click on "new photos" on the group
                                                                                                                >> home
                                                                                                                >> page) is of MY car, you can see the same picture in the "zdon_dellmann's
                                                                                                                >> stuff-Varney" album in the photos section.
                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                >> Varney actually made two versions. This one with the "arch" on the end,
                                                                                                                >> and
                                                                                                                >> a later one which was the same lettering but just on a standard Varney
                                                                                                                >> gondola.
                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                >> I seem to to recall that at one time Walthers also made decals for it.
                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                >> Don
                                                                                                                >>
                                                                                                                >> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8933 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/7/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Layout advances
                                                                                                                Jim
                                                                                                                Absolutely the way it should be,,, the way the person who is doing it does it his or her way, thats what it is all about.
                                                                                                                Charlie W.

                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                From: "Jim Heckard"
                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Layout advances
                                                                                                                Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 14:49:41 -0500

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                 I have put my vintage HO collecting on hold for the most part as I concentrate on getting my new layout up and running. I was able to run a freight train of about 15 cars on what is the main line, up one grade, crossing where the trestle will be and down the other grade. Since I don't collect freight cars for my vintage collection I had to swipe some out of a few sets that have them. Mostly Marx and Revell.
                                                                                                                       I ran a post war Super Varney Mikado with the V-2 motor. It had no trouble pulling this small amount of cars at a nice slow pace. Since I have started to "shape" my mountains and have areas that are close to edges (2" to 4") built up on the outside so I don't have to worry about an engine trying to fly. I'm about half way finished with this shaping and also have all the remote switch track wired. It is nice to sit and run the train through what will be the passenger train run by and station. Yes I intend to run vintage shorty (60') passenger trains, mostly Penn Line but also a set of Pennsy American Beauty that I assembled. Since the rail yard is finished track wise I can also do some switching if I want.
                                                                                                                      Not having had a layout in my new home for 5 years it is nice to sit back and watch them run. I won't stop my vintage collecting but it's a nice break to be able to run my vintage collection, steam and diesel, pulling vintage HO cars on vintage brass track and only using DC power like it use to be. No special added electronics.
                                                                                                                     Now this is not to knock anyone else who enjoys doing things differently. More power to you. This is my preference and what I enjoy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                --
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                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8934 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/7/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Help I need
                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                -----

                                                                                                                    Hoping to buy           1 BRASS REMOTE CONTROL  No. 4 Right Hand Switch (code 100).   Atlas, Life Like, AHM, etc. Gladly pay your price plus S&H.  Contact me off site at jimheck@... .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8935 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/7/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Help I need
                                                                                                                              The needed switch track could also be code 83 like Atlas
                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 6:35 PM
                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Help I need

                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                -----

                                                                                                                    Hoping to buy           1 BRASS REMOTE CONTROL  No. 4 Right Hand Switch (code 100).   Atlas, Life Like, AHM, etc. Gladly pay your price plus S&H.  Contact me off site at jimheck@losch. net .
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8936 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/8/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: RH brass switch
                                                                                                                To all,
                                                                                                                   I have had a few offers for the RH brass switch I need and have accepted one. I thank all of the many who replied.
                                                                                                                                                                        Jim Heckard
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8937 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 3/8/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: Space capsules
                                                                                                                Does anyone know where I can get a pair of Lionel space capsules? I am restoring a Seaboard flat car that needs a load it once had.

                                                                                                                Earl Poulsen
                                                                                                                Vancouver, WA
                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 8938 From: Riverboy Date: 3/8/2009
                                                                                                                Subject: New One 4-2-2 Steam Locomotive
                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                  Hello Group,
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                  I have recenty acquired an old steam locomotive and need some information as well as parts .
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                  I think it was made by a company called New One Models . I have attached a photo and would like to know the vintage of it . Any and all information on the company will be greatly appreciated .
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                  It is missing a sand dome , and I replaced the pilot truck . I know it is not an original type , just something I had lying around that had the right wheelbase and fit well .
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                  What kind of tender does it take ? Does anyone have one or an extra sand dome . If they are impossible to find , what substitute could I use .
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                  Thanks .
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                  Tod Dwyer
                                                                                                                  Ohio
                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8939 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/8/2009
                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: New One 4-2-2 Steam Locomotive
                                                                                                                  I think the prototype is a Columbian Exposition show engine nicknamed The Bicycle. I think It may have found a home on The New Jersey. It was eventually rebuilt into a more conventional 4-4-0. 

                                                                                                                  It uses a tender much like you'll find behind any Old West 4-4-0 American-type. Any old AHM/IHC old-time 4-4-0 American or 4-6-0 'Casey Jones' tender would suit it.

                                                                                                                  Here's a page of info and image of her.......

                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                  On Mar 8, 2009, at 9:05 PM, Riverboy wrote:

                                                                                                                  Hello Group,
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                  I have recenty acquired an old steam locomotive and need some information as well as parts .
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                  I think it was made by a company called New One Models . I have attached a photo and would like to know the vintage of it . Any and all information on the company will be greatly appreciated .
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                  It is missing a sand dome , and I replaced the pilot truck . I know it is not an original type , just something I had lying around that had the right wheelbase and fit well .
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                  What kind of tender does it take ? Does anyone have one or an extra sand dome . If they are impossible to find , what substitute could I use .
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                  Thanks .
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                  Tod Dwyer
                                                                                                                  Ohio
                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 8940 From: rrdeffinger@msn.com Date: 3/8/2009
                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: New One 4-2-2 Steam Locomotive
                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                    Here's a picture of P&R #507, maybe the same as the one at the Columbian Expo? Unless there were two built.
                                                                                                                    Bob D.
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                    From: mwbauers55@...
                                                                                                                    Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 23:22:53 -0500
                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One 4-2-2 Steam Locomotive

                                                                                                                    I think the prototype is a Columbian Exposition show engine nicknamed The Bicycle. I think It may have found a home on The New Jersey. It was eventually rebuilt into a more conventional 4-4-0. 

                                                                                                                    It uses a tender much like you'll find behind any Old West 4-4-0 American-type. Any old AHM/IHC old-time 4-4-0 American or 4-6-0 'Casey Jones' tender would suit it.

                                                                                                                    Here's a page of info and image of her.......

                                                                                                                    Best to ya,
                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                    Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                    On Mar 8, 2009, at 9:05 PM, Riverboy wrote:

                                                                                                                    Hello Group,
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    I have recenty acquired an old steam locomotive and need some information as well as parts .
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    I think it was made by a company called New One Models . I have attached a photo and would like to know the vintage of it . Any and all information on the company will be greatly appreciated .
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    It is missing a sand dome , and I replaced the pilot truck . I know it is not an original type , just something I had lying around that had the right wheelbase and fit well .
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    What kind of tender does it take ? Does anyone have one or an extra sand dome . If they are impossible to find , what substitute could I use .
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    Thanks .
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    Tod Dwyer
                                                                                                                    Ohio



                                                                                                                    Windows Live™ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups to meet. Check it out.
                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8941 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/8/2009
                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: New One 4-2-2 Steam Locomotive
                                                                                                                    Hey.........

                                                                                                                    both engines have the same road numbers. Now we have two images of the same engine and you found one showing the tender. 

                                                                                                                    Great job !

                                                                                                                    We should mention that the model was sold by the Aristo Craft line. The history link was a good read. 

                                                                                                                    I have a complete copy of the same model......... I'm glad the opportunity came up for me to learn more about my baby.

                                                                                                                    Best to ya,
                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                    Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                    On Mar 9, 2009, at 12:19 AM, <rrdeffinger@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                    Here's a picture of P&R #507, maybe the same as the one at the Columbian Expo? Unless there were two built.
                                                                                                                    Bob D.
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    From: mwbauers55@...
                                                                                                                    Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 23:22:53 -0500
                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New One 4-2-2 Steam Locomotive

                                                                                                                    I think the prototype is a Columbian Exposition show engine nicknamed The Bicycle. I think It may have found a home on The New Jersey. It was eventually rebuilt into a more conventional 4-4-0. 

                                                                                                                    It uses a tender much like you'll find behind any Old West 4-4-0 American-type. Any old AHM/IHC old-time 4-4-0 American or 4-6-0 'Casey Jones' tender would suit it.

                                                                                                                    Here's a page of info and image of her.......

                                                                                                                    Best to ya,
                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                    Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                    On Mar 8, 2009, at 9:05 PM, Riverboy wrote:

                                                                                                                    Hello Group,
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    I have recenty acquired an old steam locomotive and need some information as well as parts .
                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                    I think it was made by a company called New One Models . I have attached a photo and would like to know the vintage of it . Any and all information on the company will be greatly appreciated .
                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 8942 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/9/2009
                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: New One 4-2-2 Steam Locomotive
                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                      Hi Tod,

                                                                                                                      glad you started this discussion ... now I got two prototype pictures
                                                                                                                      without even asking for them! The tender New One used is the same
                                                                                                                      generic type as on their other Old time locos, it might be possible to
                                                                                                                      buy a incomplete loco with a tender for maybe $15 at eBay. Look for
                                                                                                                      "aristo" .
                                                                                                                      - However, the tender is very heavy and with the limited traction of the
                                                                                                                      single driver, the loco will barely move a two car train.... I tinkered
                                                                                                                      for some time with the weight distribution to get as much weight on the
                                                                                                                      driver as possible, but finally duplicated the original tender shell
                                                                                                                      with resin to get rid of the excessive weight. This made all the
                                                                                                                      difference.

                                                                                                                      Attached a picture I save from an auction years ago; my loco came
                                                                                                                      without box.

                                                                                                                      Gerold
                                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 8943 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/9/2009
                                                                                                                      Subject: Aristo Craft 4-2-2 Bicycle
                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                  Here is another picture of a 4-2-2. It was sold in the US by Polk's Hobby under his Aristo Craft/Distinctive Miniatures name. It was made in Japan by New One and was part of Polk's Pioneer HO Series.
                                                                                                                             This picture is mint in O/B. Never taken out of the box. ( You can see the New One silica gel pack still in the box along with the bell still in plastic)_. The number on the engine is 507and the tender has Philadelphia and Reading on the side. I think this is the only number and railroad name that was produced. It has the words "1880 Bicycle Style" written on the box. I will have to search further for the year this model produced if you want it..
                                                                                                                               It might be hard to find parts for this particular model but if you watch eBay, especially under Aristocrat HO or New One HO, I have seen tenders being sold by themselves.
                                                                                                                               Go to HOseeker.net and under Aristo Craft there is a catalog showing all the engines produced in the series. (One shown in that catalog, a Mason-Bogie was never produced as far as I know).
                                                                                                                                Hope that adds to the discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim H
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8944 From: Riverboy Date: 3/9/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Aristo Craft 4-2-2 Bicycle
                                                                                                                        Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        First , I want to thank you ( and the other members ) for providing the information given so far .
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        If it's not too awful much trouble a year / years of production would be nice , mainly for historical purposes . I'm sure though to find out about how many were ever produced would be interesting , but my guess is that records like that were not kept back then as often as they are today .
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Thanks again to everyone , and if someone still can provide more information , please do so .
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Tod

                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                        --- On Mon, 3/9/09, Jim Heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                        From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Aristo Craft 4-2-2 Bicycle
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 9:32 AM

                                                                                                                                  Here is another picture of a 4-2-2. It was sold in the US by Polk's Hobby under his Aristo Craft/Distinctive Miniatures name. It was made in Japan by New One and was part of Polk's Pioneer HO Series.
                                                                                                                             This picture is mint in O/B. Never taken out of the box. ( You can see the New One silica gel pack still in the box along with the bell still in plastic)_. The number on the engine is 507and the tender has Philadelphia and Reading on the side. I think this is the only number and railroad name that was produced. It has the words "1880 Bicycle Style" written on the box. I will have to search further for the year this model produced if you want it..
                                                                                                                               It might be hard to find parts for this particular model but if you watch eBay, especially under Aristocrat HO or New One HO, I have seen tenders being sold by themselves.
                                                                                                                               Go to HOseeker.net and under Aristo Craft there is a catalog showing all the engines produced in the series. (One shown in that catalog, a Mason-Bogie was never produced as far as I know).
                                                                                                                                Hope that adds to the discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim H
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8945 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 3/9/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Aristo Craft 4-2-2 Bicycle
                                                                                                                        Hi everyone, according the the Aristo-Craft catalog I have, they were produced in 1961, however, I don't know if any other years also apply.
                                                                                                                        Brian L.


                                                                                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                        From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 9:32 am
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Aristo Craft 4-2-2 Bicycle

                                                                                                                                  Here is another picture of a 4-2-2. It was sold in the US by Polk's Hobby under his Aristo Craft/Distinctive Miniatures name. It was made in Japan by New One and was part of Polk's Pioneer HO Series.
                                                                                                                             This picture is mint in O/B. Never taken out of the box. ( You can see the New One silica gel pack still in the box along with the bell still in plastic)_. The number on the engine is 507and the tender has Philadelphia and Reading on the side. I think this is the only number and railroad name that was produced. It has the words "1880 Bicycle Style" written on the box. I will have to search further for the year this model produced if you want it..
                                                                                                                               It might be hard to find parts for this particular model but if you watch eBay, especially under Aristocrat HO or New One HO, I have seen tenders being sold by themselves.
                                                                                                                               Go to HOseeker.net and under Aristo Craft there is a catalog showing all the engines produced in the series. (One shown in that catalog, a Mason-Bogie was never produced as far as I know).
                                                                                                                                Hope that adds to the discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim H
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8946 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/9/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Aristo Craft 4-2-2 Bicycle
                                                                                                                                I see Brian gave you a date which sounds right. As for how many made that might be hard to find out. They show up on Ebay once in a while . They, complete with tender and box sometimes,  seem to go a little higher then some other New One items but not astronomical.
                                                                                                                                A little note I should add is that a lot of the "lettering" on the engine is not printing but little stickers. If you want a real close up picture of the tender I can send later.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        From: Riverboy
                                                                                                                        Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 9:46 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Aristo Craft 4-2-2 Bicycle

                                                                                                                        Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        First , I want to thank you ( and the other members ) for providing the information given so far .
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        If it's not too awful much trouble a year / years of production would be nice , mainly for historical purposes . I'm sure though to find out about how many were ever produced would be interesting , but my guess is that records like that were not kept back then as often as they are today .
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Thanks again to everyone , and if someone still can provide more information , please do so .
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Tod

                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                        --- On Mon, 3/9/09, Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                        From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Aristo Craft 4-2-2 Bicycle
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 9:32 AM

                                                                                                                                  Here is another picture of a 4-2-2. It was sold in the US by Polk's Hobby under his Aristo Craft/Distinctive Miniatures name. It was made in Japan by New One and was part of Polk's Pioneer HO Series.
                                                                                                                             This picture is mint in O/B. Never taken out of the box. ( You can see the New One silica gel pack still in the box along with the bell still in plastic)_. The number on the engine is 507and the tender has Philadelphia and Reading on the side. I think this is the only number and railroad name that was produced. It has the words "1880 Bicycle Style" written on the box. I will have to search further for the year this model produced if you want it..
                                                                                                                               It might be hard to find parts for this particular model but if you watch eBay, especially under Aristocrat HO or New One HO, I have seen tenders being sold by themselves.
                                                                                                                               Go to HOseeker.net and under Aristo Craft there is a catalog showing all the engines produced in the series. (One shown in that catalog, a Mason-Bogie was never produced as far as I know).
                                                                                                                                Hope that adds to the discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim H
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8947 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/9/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Aristo Craft 4-2-2 Bicycle
                                                                                                                        In a message dated 3/9/2009 9:54:09 AM EST, Brian L. wrote:
                                                                                                                        they were produced in 1961, however, I don't know if any other years also apply.
                                                                                                                        ----------------
                                                                                                                        Here's a link to a website with the 1962 Aristo-Craft catalog:  http://www.hoseeker.org/aristocraft/aristocraftcatalog1962pg10.jpg
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        The home page is HOSeeker.net and it's a wonderful resource for older models.  As I go through my collection, I send copies of old brochures and instructions; the owner gives credit for all contributions so, if you know where to look, you'll find my name in a couple of places.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Ralph B.

                                                                                                                        Need a job? Find employment help in your area.
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8948 From: litant Date: 3/9/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Ohio Seamless Tube car
                                                                                                                        Mike,

                                                                                                                        I recall an article in Model Railroader in the early 60s that, I believe, showed the prototype and offered decals if you sent a SASE to someone who worked for the company (possibly the author). I can't locate the article in the Model Train Index, but I sent away for the decals.

                                                                                                                        I think the article was about modifying a Varney gondola ... shortly after that, Varney came out with their own OSTX gondola.

                                                                                                                        I always remembered the arch at the end as having square corners, so I was surprised to see the curved one.

                                                                                                                        Michael Litant

                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Interestingly, the "arch" at the end seems to be
                                                                                                                        > slightly different from the one on your car - but mine,
                                                                                                                        > except for the Kaydee couplers (and the crude weathering),
                                                                                                                        > is the way I assembled it out of the box.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > I am still looking for an image of the prototype car, if anyone
                                                                                                                        > has one.
                                                                                                                        ...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8949 From: jimheck@losch.net Date: 3/10/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Computer down
                                                                                                                        My computer is down. Receive e-mails, but can't send. Will be off site.
                                                                                                                        Jim H.
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8950 From: litant Date: 3/10/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
                                                                                                                        Mike,

                                                                                                                        I think I've located the MR issue with the article on modeling the seamless tube car.

                                                                                                                        The index for the January, 1964 issue and an eBay listing show:
                                                                                                                        A Safe-Loading Mill Gondola -- A colorful car used for handling solid rounds used in making seamless tubing

                                                                                                                        I have this issue myself somewhere, and I'll check it.

                                                                                                                        Michael
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8951 From: Mike Sloane Date: 3/10/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
                                                                                                                        List member Vic Bitleris sent me a scan of an article with the title "7:
                                                                                                                        Safe Loading Mill Gondola", which was very helpful, but did not have any
                                                                                                                        reference to the publication it came from, just pages 23 and 24. The car
                                                                                                                        and the model pictured in the article both carry the same number as my
                                                                                                                        Varney - 1908

                                                                                                                        I have a LOT of old MR's but I don't go back to 1964 (the ones from 1952
                                                                                                                        through 1969 were lost during a series of moves). If you find it, I
                                                                                                                        would appreciate a scan.

                                                                                                                        Mike

                                                                                                                        litant wrote:
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Mike,
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > I think I've located the MR issue with the article on modeling the
                                                                                                                        > seamless tube car.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > The index for the January, 1964 issue and an eBay listing show:
                                                                                                                        > A Safe-Loading Mill Gondola -- A colorful car used for handling solid
                                                                                                                        > rounds used in making seamless tubing
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > I have this issue myself somewhere, and I'll check it.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Michael
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        > Checked by AVG.
                                                                                                                        > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1991 - Release Date: 3/9/2009 7:14 AM
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8952 From: jimheck@losch.net Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Problems
                                                                                                                        This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't respond
                                                                                                                        right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am using their
                                                                                                                        web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working. They
                                                                                                                        showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc. Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3 hours on
                                                                                                                        the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all that
                                                                                                                        talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti virus
                                                                                                                        program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started. They
                                                                                                                        left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back to us.
                                                                                                                        Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out to some
                                                                                                                        other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the error
                                                                                                                        message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought they had
                                                                                                                        fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any messages even
                                                                                                                        from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send or receive
                                                                                                                        any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        Till then Happy Railroading Jim H
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8953 From: nvrr49 Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
                                                                                                                        Does anyone know what years this car was running and/or what the built/rebuilt date was?
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8954 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        Your problem may very well be the Outlook, I quit using Outlook years ago, because Microsoft never could get it to work, I just use my web browser and view my email via yahoo..........:o)
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Gary W
                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                        From: "jimheck@..." <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Cc: yardbirdtrains@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't respond
                                                                                                                        right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am using their
                                                                                                                        web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working. They
                                                                                                                        showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc. Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3 hours on
                                                                                                                        the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all that
                                                                                                                        talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti virus
                                                                                                                        program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started. They
                                                                                                                        left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back to us.
                                                                                                                        Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out to some
                                                                                                                        other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the error
                                                                                                                        message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought they had
                                                                                                                        fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any messages even
                                                                                                                        from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send or receive
                                                                                                                        any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        Till then Happy Railroading Jim H
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8955 From: John Hagen Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        On the other hand I've been using outlook for years with few problems, and those that did crop up were not a fault of outlook. I do not use Outlook Express however so I can't speak of that program.

                                                                                                                        Could be a firewall problem or...

                                                                                                                        Some times after changes have been made with the isp, servers, AV programs or email programs you have to delete your email program account(s) and start over right at the isp end of things.

                                                                                                                        There is a name for this kind of thing for which the acronym is PIA.

                                                                                                                        John Hagen

                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Your problem may very well be the Outlook, I quit using Outlook years ago, because Microsoft never could get it to work, I just use my web browser and view my email via yahoo..........:o)
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Gary W
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ________________________________
                                                                                                                        > From: "jimheck@..." <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        > Cc: yardbirdtrains@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't respond
                                                                                                                        > right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am using their
                                                                                                                        > web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working. They
                                                                                                                        > showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc. Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        > could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3 hours on
                                                                                                                        > the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all that
                                                                                                                        > talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti virus
                                                                                                                        > program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started. They
                                                                                                                        > left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back to us.
                                                                                                                        > Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out to some
                                                                                                                        > other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the error
                                                                                                                        > message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought they had
                                                                                                                        > fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any messages even
                                                                                                                        > from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send or receive
                                                                                                                        > any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        > I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        > problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        > Till then Happy Railroading Jim H
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8956 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        Dittos, Gary!
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Another advantage of Yahoo(and hotmail, I s'pose) is that the e-mails you read do not load into your computer the way Outlook(and likely its variants) would. You cannot lose them unless you delete them AND empty the trash.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        I use my Yahoo mail for storing important things I don't want to lose in a crash(for example).
                                                                                                                        Outlook Express? I haven't used it since 2001, when I learned better. Got a real nasty worm there.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Also, I tried McAffee, Norton, and other anti-virus programs. But the best I have used, hands down, is AVG from www.Gristoft.com . If one goes to Grisoft, the free download is(or at east last time I did) found in the upper left-hand corner of the page.Free download, free updates... got stories about the others. Horrors! Wound up uninstalling the others and will never go back.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        My 2 cents' worth...
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

                                                                                                                        --- On Wed, 3/11/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                        From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 11:05 AM

                                                                                                                        Your problem may very well be the Outlook, I quit using Outlook years ago, because Microsoft never could get it to work, I just use my web browser and view my email via yahoo..........:o)
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Gary W
                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                        From: "jimheck@..." <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Cc: yardbirdtrains@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't respond
                                                                                                                        right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am using their
                                                                                                                        web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working. They
                                                                                                                        showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc. Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3 hours on
                                                                                                                        the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all that
                                                                                                                        talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti virus
                                                                                                                        program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started. They
                                                                                                                        left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back to us.
                                                                                                                        Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out to some
                                                                                                                        other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the error
                                                                                                                        message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought they had
                                                                                                                        fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any messages even
                                                                                                                        from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send or receive
                                                                                                                        any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        Till then Happy Railroading Jim H
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8957 From: Chris B Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        Jim, I'm only offering sympathy without any suggestions or solutions, but that can't hurt.
                                                                                                                        I could join a vintage computer group if I wanted to I guess, I've got as much time in as anyone who bought systems in the early 80's & knows what 8" floppies and 300 baud modems are...I hung on to too many old computers for too many years...
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        but my wife has more chops than I do, and she had Kaypros and Osbornes, so I listen to her advice even though I'm the office IT techie in my group at work...
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        so here's the sympathy part, she has a great phrase for such moments, whether she or someone else is doing the trouble shooting, and anyone in this group who has chased down a short in an all metal engine will recognize how it fits more situations than just computer problems....  
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        it's what she calls it when you, or they, think they almost have it and if they just tweak this one thing and then restart it all it will finally all be fine,
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        When it stretches out for hours or days, and you still think just one more tweak with this newly added fix will do the trick..
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        she calls it "15 minutes from greatness".   Do what you can to cope, maybe it's your layout telling you it wants more quality time!
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        This group benefits from your wisdom and it no doubt it feels your pain,
                                                                                                                        best hopes for success,
                                                                                                                        Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        From: "jimheck@..." <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Cc: yardbirdtrains@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't respond
                                                                                                                        right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am using their
                                                                                                                        web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working. They
                                                                                                                        showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc. Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3 hours on
                                                                                                                        the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all that
                                                                                                                        talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti virus
                                                                                                                        program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started. They
                                                                                                                        left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back to us.
                                                                                                                        Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out to some
                                                                                                                        other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the error
                                                                                                                        message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought they had
                                                                                                                        fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any messages even
                                                                                                                        from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send or receive
                                                                                                                        any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        Till then Happy Railroading Jim H
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8958 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                                     To all that replied with help for my computer problem THANK YOU. My internet provider has found out the problem. It has to do with SYMANTEC anti virus program. My computer was uploaded the other night with new information/security alerts.This was the night before I had any problems. For what ever the reason the new addition shut down to tight my Email. I had to uninstall it, after having it for 5 years at least with no problem, and install a program called AVG which my internet provider recommended. It's a free download and they told me AVG stands for "A Very Good" anti virus program. It had nothing to do with my Outlook Express which I have used for years without a problem.
                                                                                                                               Hopefully the Symantec program is the problem and things are good to go.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        From: Chris B
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:37 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        Jim, I'm only offering sympathy without any suggestions or solutions, but that can't hurt.
                                                                                                                        I could join a vintage computer group if I wanted to I guess, I've got as much time in as anyone who bought systems in the early 80's & knows what 8" floppies and 300 baud modems are...I hung on to too many old computers for too many years...
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        but my wife has more chops than I do, and she had Kaypros and Osbornes, so I listen to her advice even though I'm the office IT techie in my group at work...
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        so here's the sympathy part, she has a great phrase for such moments, whether she or someone else is doing the trouble shooting, and anyone in this group who has chased down a short in an all metal engine will recognize how it fits more situations than just computer problems....  
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        it's what she calls it when you, or they, think they almost have it and if they just tweak this one thing and then restart it all it will finally all be fine,
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        When it stretches out for hours or days, and you still think just one more tweak with this newly added fix will do the trick..
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        she calls it "15 minutes from greatness".   Do what you can to cope, maybe it's your layout telling you it wants more quality time!
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        This group benefits from your wisdom and it no doubt it feels your pain,
                                                                                                                        best hopes for success,
                                                                                                                        Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        From: "jimheck@losch. net" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        Cc: yardbirdtrains@ yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't respond
                                                                                                                        right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am using their
                                                                                                                        web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working. They
                                                                                                                        showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc. Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3 hours on
                                                                                                                        the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all that
                                                                                                                        talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti virus
                                                                                                                        program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started. They
                                                                                                                        left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back to us.
                                                                                                                        Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out to some
                                                                                                                        other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the error
                                                                                                                        message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought they had
                                                                                                                        fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any messages even
                                                                                                                        from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send or receive
                                                                                                                        any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        Till then Happy Railroading Jim H



                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8959 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        Good to hear Jim,
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        AVG we use here at work and have done so for ~3-4 years now with no problems.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Sean

                                                                                                                        From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:08:45 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                                     To all that replied with help for my computer problem THANK YOU. My internet provider has found out the problem. It has to do with SYMANTEC anti virus program. My computer was uploaded the other night with new information/ security alerts.This was the night before I had any problems. For what ever the reason the new addition shut down to tight my Email. I had to uninstall it, after having it for 5 years at least with no problem, and install a program called AVG which my internet provider recommended. It's a free download and they told me AVG stands for "A Very Good" anti virus program. It had nothing to do with my Outlook Express which I have used for years without a problem.
                                                                                                                               Hopefully the Symantec program is the problem and things are good to go.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        From: Chris B
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:37 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        Jim, I'm only offering sympathy without any suggestions or solutions, but that can't hurt.
                                                                                                                        I could join a vintage computer group if I wanted to I guess, I've got as much time in as anyone who bought systems in the early 80's & knows what 8" floppies and 300 baud modems are...I hung on to too many old computers for too many years...
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        but my wife has more chops than I do, and she had Kaypros and Osbornes, so I listen to her advice even though I'm the office IT techie in my group at work...
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        so here's the sympathy part, she has a great phrase for such moments, whether she or someone else is doing the trouble shooting, and anyone in this group who has chased down a short in an all metal engine will recognize how it fits more situations than just computer problems....  
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        it's what she calls it when you, or they, think they almost have it and if they just tweak this one thing and then restart it all it will finally all be fine,
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        When it stretches out for hours or days, and you still think just one more tweak with this newly added fix will do the trick..
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        she calls it "15 minutes from greatness".   Do what you can to cope, maybe it's your layout telling you it wants more quality time!
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        This group benefits from your wisdom and it no doubt it feels your pain,
                                                                                                                        best hopes for success,
                                                                                                                        Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        From: "jimheck@losch. net" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        Cc: yardbirdtrains@ yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't respond
                                                                                                                        right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am using their
                                                                                                                        web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working. They
                                                                                                                        showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc. Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3 hours on
                                                                                                                        the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all that
                                                                                                                        talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti virus
                                                                                                                        program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started. They
                                                                                                                        left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back to us.
                                                                                                                        Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out to some
                                                                                                                        other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the error
                                                                                                                        message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought they had
                                                                                                                        fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any messages even
                                                                                                                        from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send or receive
                                                                                                                        any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        Till then Happy Railroading Jim H



                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8960 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        Good luck.  At work, we are REQUIRED to us Symantec.  At home, I use AVG and have for years and am THRILLED with it.  At work, well, you gotta do what they tell you.  I think you can tell how I feel about Symantec.

                                                                                                                        Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        From: jimheck@...
                                                                                                                        Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:08:45 -0400
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems


                                                                                                                                     To all that replied with help for my computer problem THANK YOU. My internet provider has found out the problem. It has to do with SYMANTEC anti virus program. My computer was uploaded the other night with new information/ security alerts.This was the night before I had any problems. For what ever the reason the new addition shut down to tight my Email. I had to uninstall it, after having it for 5 years at least with no problem, and install a program called AVG which my internet provider recommended. It's a free download and they told me AVG stands for "A Very Good" anti virus program. It had nothing to do with my Outlook Express which I have used for years without a problem.
                                                                                                                               Hopefully the Symantec program is the problem and things are good to go.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        From: Chris B
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:37 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems


                                                                                                                        Jim, I'm only offering sympathy without any suggestions or solutions, but that can't hurt.
                                                                                                                        I could join a vintage computer group if I wanted to I guess, I've got as much time in as anyone who bought systems in the early 80's & knows what 8" floppies and 300 baud modems are...I hung on to too many old computers for too many years...
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        but my wife has more chops than I do, and she had Kaypros and Osbornes, so I listen to her advice even though I'm the office IT techie in my group at work...
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        so here's the sympathy part, she has a great phrase for such moments, whether she or someone else is doing the trouble shooting, and anyone in this group who has chased down a short in an all metal engine will recognize how it fits more situations than just computer problems....  
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        it's what she calls it when you, or they, think they almost have it and if they just tweak this one thing and then restart it all it will finally all be fine,
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        When it stretches out for hours or days, and you still think just one more tweak with this newly added fix will do the trick..
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        she calls it "15 minutes from greatness".   Do what you can to cope, maybe it's your layout telling you it wants more quality time!
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        This group benefits from your wisdom and it no doubt it feels your pain,
                                                                                                                        best hopes for success,
                                                                                                                        Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        From: "jimheck@losch. net" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        Cc: yardbirdtrains@ yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't respond
                                                                                                                        right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am using their
                                                                                                                        web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working. They
                                                                                                                        showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc. Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3 hours on
                                                                                                                        the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all that
                                                                                                                        talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti virus
                                                                                                                        program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started. They
                                                                                                                        left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back to us.
                                                                                                                        Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out to some
                                                                                                                        other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the error
                                                                                                                        message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought they had
                                                                                                                        fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any messages even
                                                                                                                        from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send or receive
                                                                                                                        any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        Till then Happy Railroading Jim H







                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00


                                                                                                                        Windows Live™ Contacts: Organize your contact list. Check it out.
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8961 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                                    I have such a headache from over 24 hrs being down and couldn't find the problem. Thank goodness for tech support. I've heard this AVG pretty good.
                                                                                                                                      By the way the switch track you sent arrived today and I want to install it this afternoon to get rid of that other headache, a bad switch.                  Take care.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:19 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        Good to hear Jim,
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        AVG we use here at work and have done so for ~3-4 years now with no problems.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Sean

                                                                                                                        From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:08:45 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                                     To all that replied with help for my computer problem THANK YOU. My internet provider has found out the problem. It has to do with SYMANTEC anti virus program. My computer was uploaded the other night with new information/ security alerts.This was the night before I had any problems. For what ever the reason the new addition shut down to tight my Email. I had to uninstall it, after having it for 5 years at least with no problem, and install a program called AVG which my internet provider recommended. It's a free download and they told me AVG stands for "A Very Good" anti virus program. It had nothing to do with my Outlook Express which I have used for years without a problem.
                                                                                                                               Hopefully the Symantec program is the problem and things are good to go.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        From: Chris B
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:37 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        Jim, I'm only offering sympathy without any suggestions or solutions, but that can't hurt.
                                                                                                                        I could join a vintage computer group if I wanted to I guess, I've got as much time in as anyone who bought systems in the early 80's & knows what 8" floppies and 300 baud modems are...I hung on to too many old computers for too many years...
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        but my wife has more chops than I do, and she had Kaypros and Osbornes, so I listen to her advice even though I'm the office IT techie in my group at work...
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        so here's the sympathy part, she has a great phrase for such moments, whether she or someone else is doing the trouble shooting, and anyone in this group who has chased down a short in an all metal engine will recognize how it fits more situations than just computer problems....  
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        it's what she calls it when you, or they, think they almost have it and if they just tweak this one thing and then restart it all it will finally all be fine,
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        When it stretches out for hours or days, and you still think just one more tweak with this newly added fix will do the trick..
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        she calls it "15 minutes from greatness".   Do what you can to cope, maybe it's your layout telling you it wants more quality time!
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        This group benefits from your wisdom and it no doubt it feels your pain,
                                                                                                                        best hopes for success,
                                                                                                                        Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        From: "jimheck@losch. net" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        Cc: yardbirdtrains@ yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't respond
                                                                                                                        right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am using their
                                                                                                                        web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working. They
                                                                                                                        showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc. Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3 hours on
                                                                                                                        the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all that
                                                                                                                        talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti virus
                                                                                                                        program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started. They
                                                                                                                        left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back to us.
                                                                                                                        Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out to some
                                                                                                                        other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the error
                                                                                                                        message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought they had
                                                                                                                        fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any messages even
                                                                                                                        from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send or receive
                                                                                                                        any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        Till then Happy Railroading Jim H



                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00



                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8962 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        Good to hear Jim,
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        I wish you luck on both..
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Sean

                                                                                                                        From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:42:15 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                                    I have such a headache from over 24 hrs being down and couldn't find the problem. Thank goodness for tech support. I've heard this AVG pretty good.
                                                                                                                                      By the way the switch track you sent arrived today and I want to install it this afternoon to get rid of that other headache, a bad switch.                  Take care.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:19 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        Good to hear Jim,
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        AVG we use here at work and have done so for ~3-4 years now with no problems.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Sean

                                                                                                                        From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:08:45 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                                     To all that replied with help for my computer problem THANK YOU. My internet provider has found out the problem. It has to do with SYMANTEC anti virus program. My computer was uploaded the other night with new information/ security alerts.This was the night before I had any problems. For what ever the reason the new addition shut down to tight my Email. I had to uninstall it, after having it for 5 years at least with no problem, and install a program called AVG which my internet provider recommended. It's a free download and they told me AVG stands for "A Very Good" anti virus program. It had nothing to do with my Outlook Express which I have used for years without a problem.
                                                                                                                               Hopefully the Symantec program is the problem and things are good to go.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        From: Chris B
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:37 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        Jim, I'm only offering sympathy without any suggestions or solutions, but that can't hurt.
                                                                                                                        I could join a vintage computer group if I wanted to I guess, I've got as much time in as anyone who bought systems in the early 80's & knows what 8" floppies and 300 baud modems are...I hung on to too many old computers for too many years...
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        but my wife has more chops than I do, and she had Kaypros and Osbornes, so I listen to her advice even though I'm the office IT techie in my group at work...
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        so here's the sympathy part, she has a great phrase for such moments, whether she or someone else is doing the trouble shooting, and anyone in this group who has chased down a short in an all metal engine will recognize how it fits more situations than just computer problems....  
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        it's what she calls it when you, or they, think they almost have it and if they just tweak this one thing and then restart it all it will finally all be fine,
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        When it stretches out for hours or days, and you still think just one more tweak with this newly added fix will do the trick..
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        she calls it "15 minutes from greatness".   Do what you can to cope, maybe it's your layout telling you it wants more quality time!
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        This group benefits from your wisdom and it no doubt it feels your pain,
                                                                                                                        best hopes for success,
                                                                                                                        Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        From: "jimheck@losch. net" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        Cc: yardbirdtrains@ yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't respond
                                                                                                                        right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am using their
                                                                                                                        web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working. They
                                                                                                                        showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc. Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3 hours on
                                                                                                                        the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all that
                                                                                                                        talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti virus
                                                                                                                        program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started. They
                                                                                                                        left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back to us.
                                                                                                                        Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out to some
                                                                                                                        other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the error
                                                                                                                        message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought they had
                                                                                                                        fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any messages even
                                                                                                                        from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send or receive
                                                                                                                        any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        Till then Happy Railroading Jim H



                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00



                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8963 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                             I'm not smart enough to rate the merits of any program. Symantec had worked for years with no problem. I hope this AVG as good as people claim. Hopefully this episode / problem might help others if they use Symantec and have Email problems.
                                                                                                                             Well enough of computers and back to HO trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:38 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        Good luck.  At work, we are REQUIRED to us Symantec.  At home, I use AVG and have for years and am THRILLED with it.  At work, well, you gotta do what they tell you.  I think you can tell how I feel about Symantec.

                                                                                                                        Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        From: jimheck@losch. net
                                                                                                                        Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:08:45 -0400
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems


                                                                                                                                     To all that replied with help for my computer problem THANK YOU. My internet provider has found out the problem. It has to do with SYMANTEC anti virus program. My computer was uploaded the other night with new information/ security alerts.This was the night before I had any problems. For what ever the reason the new addition shut down to tight my Email. I had to uninstall it, after having it for 5 years at least with no problem, and install a program called AVG which my internet provider recommended. It's a free download and they told me AVG stands for "A Very Good" anti virus program. It had nothing to do with my Outlook Express which I have used for years without a problem.
                                                                                                                               Hopefully the Symantec program is the problem and things are good to go.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        From: Chris B
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:37 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems


                                                                                                                        Jim, I'm only offering sympathy without any suggestions or solutions, but that can't hurt.
                                                                                                                        I could join a vintage computer group if I wanted to I guess, I've got as much time in as anyone who bought systems in the early 80's & knows what 8" floppies and 300 baud modems are...I hung on to too many old computers for too many years...
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        but my wife has more chops than I do, and she had Kaypros and Osbornes, so I listen to her advice even though I'm the office IT techie in my group at work...
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        so here's the sympathy part, she has a great phrase for such moments, whether she or someone else is doing the trouble shooting, and anyone in this group who has chased down a short in an all metal engine will recognize how it fits more situations than just computer problems....  
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        it's what she calls it when you, or they, think they almost have it and if they just tweak this one thing and then restart it all it will finally all be fine,
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        When it stretches out for hours or days, and you still think just one more tweak with this newly added fix will do the trick..
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        she calls it "15 minutes from greatness".   Do what you can to cope, maybe it's your layout telling you it wants more quality time!
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        This group benefits from your wisdom and it no doubt it feels your pain,
                                                                                                                        best hopes for success,
                                                                                                                        Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        From: "jimheck@losch. net" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        Cc: yardbirdtrains@ yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't respond
                                                                                                                        right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am using their
                                                                                                                        web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working. They
                                                                                                                        showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc. Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3 hours on
                                                                                                                        the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all that
                                                                                                                        talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti virus
                                                                                                                        program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started. They
                                                                                                                        left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back to us.
                                                                                                                        Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out to some
                                                                                                                        other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the error
                                                                                                                        message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought they had
                                                                                                                        fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any messages even
                                                                                                                        from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send or receive
                                                                                                                        any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        Till then Happy Railroading Jim H







                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00


                                                                                                                        Windows Live™ Contacts: Organize your contact list. Check it out.


                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8964 From: trainliker Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        The IT department where I work strongly recommends AVG and says foul things about McAfee's (and other "big name" products) bloated size and usurping of processor resources.

                                                                                                                        I use McAfee at home and it seems pretty powerful, but is a glutton. It used to really get in the way checking emails coming in, but they've done something to make it rather fast for that now. (By the way, smart geeky people call it "McFatee".)

                                                                                                                        I have also used Spyware doctor (seems sluggish) and SuperAntiSpyware (seems pretty good).

                                                                                                                        I'm helping a ladyfriend with the tribulations of getting her first computer, and we will be using AVG.

                                                                                                                        Will also be deleting assorted "crapware" and "bloatware" that tends to come preloaded on new computers. And very likely at least some of that is on most of the computers this email will reach.

                                                                                                                        Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > I'm not smart enough to rate the merits of any program. Symantec had worked for years with no problem. I hope this AVG as good as people claim. Hopefully this episode / problem might help others if they use Symantec and have Email problems.
                                                                                                                        > Well enough of computers and back to HO trains.
                                                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        > From: Victor Bitleris
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:38 PM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Good luck. At work, we are REQUIRED to us Symantec. At home, I use AVG and have for years and am THRILLED with it. At work, well, you gotta do what they tell you. I think you can tell how I feel about Symantec.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        > From: jimheck@...
                                                                                                                        > Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:08:45 -0400
                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > To all that replied with help for my computer problem THANK YOU. My internet provider has found out the problem. It has to do with SYMANTEC anti virus program. My computer was uploaded the other night with new information/security alerts.This was the night before I had any problems. For what ever the reason the new addition shut down to tight my Email. I had to uninstall it, after having it for 5 years at least with no problem, and install a program called AVG which my internet provider recommended. It's a free download and they told me AVG stands for "A Very Good" anti virus program. It had nothing to do with my Outlook Express which I have used for years without a problem.
                                                                                                                        > Hopefully the Symantec program is the problem and things are good to go.
                                                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        > From: Chris B
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:37 PM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim, I'm only offering sympathy without any suggestions or solutions, but that can't hurt.
                                                                                                                        > I could join a vintage computer group if I wanted to I guess, I've got as much time in as anyone who bought systems in the early 80's & knows what 8" floppies and 300 baud modems are...I hung on to too many old computers for too many years...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > but my wife has more chops than I do, and she had Kaypros and Osbornes, so I listen to her advice even though I'm the office IT techie in my group at work...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > so here's the sympathy part, she has a great phrase for such moments, whether she or someone else is doing the trouble shooting, and anyone in this group who has chased down a short in an all metal engine will recognize how it fits more situations than just computer problems....
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > it's what she calls it when you, or they, think they almost have it and if they just tweak this one thing and then restart it all it will finally all be fine,
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > When it stretches out for hours or days, and you still think just one more tweak with this newly added fix will do the trick..
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > she calls it "15 minutes from greatness". Do what you can to cope, maybe it's your layout telling you it wants more quality time!
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > This group benefits from your wisdom and it no doubt it feels your pain,
                                                                                                                        > best hopes for success,
                                                                                                                        > Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > From: "jimheck@..." <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        > Cc: yardbirdtrains@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't respond
                                                                                                                        > right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am using their
                                                                                                                        > web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working. They
                                                                                                                        > showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc. Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        > could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3 hours on
                                                                                                                        > the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all that
                                                                                                                        > talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti virus
                                                                                                                        > program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started. They
                                                                                                                        > left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back to us.
                                                                                                                        > Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out to some
                                                                                                                        > other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the error
                                                                                                                        > message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought they had
                                                                                                                        > fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any messages even
                                                                                                                        > from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send or receive
                                                                                                                        > any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        > I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        > problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        > Till then Happy Railroading Jim H
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        > Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                        > Windows Live™ Contacts: Organize your contact list. Check it out.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        > Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8965 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        AVG is a good system, however, I prefer Avast myself, also a freeware anti-virus program...........;o)
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Gary W

                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                        From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:08:45 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                                     To all that replied with help for my computer problem THANK YOU. My internet provider has found out the problem. It has to do with SYMANTEC anti virus program. My computer was uploaded the other night with new information/ security alerts.This was the night before I had any problems. For what ever the reason the new addition shut down to tight my Email. I had to uninstall it, after having it for 5 years at least with no problem, and install a program called AVG which my internet provider recommended. It's a free download and they told me AVG stands for "A Very Good" anti virus program. It had nothing to do with my Outlook Express which I have used for years without a problem.
                                                                                                                               Hopefully the Symantec program is the problem and things are good to go.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        From: Chris B
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:37 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        Jim, I'm only offering sympathy without any suggestions or solutions, but that can't hurt.
                                                                                                                        I could join a vintage computer group if I wanted to I guess, I've got as much time in as anyone who bought systems in the early 80's & knows what 8" floppies and 300 baud modems are...I hung on to too many old computers for too many years...
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        but my wife has more chops than I do, and she had Kaypros and Osbornes, so I listen to her advice even though I'm the office IT techie in my group at work...
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        so here's the sympathy part, she has a great phrase for such moments, whether she or someone else is doing the trouble shooting, and anyone in this group who has chased down a short in an all metal engine will recognize how it fits more situations than just computer problems....  
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        it's what she calls it when you, or they, think they almost have it and if they just tweak this one thing and then restart it all it will finally all be fine,
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        When it stretches out for hours or days, and you still think just one more tweak with this newly added fix will do the trick..
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        she calls it "15 minutes from greatness".   Do what you can to cope, maybe it's your layout telling you it wants more quality time!
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        This group benefits from your wisdom and it no doubt it feels your pain,
                                                                                                                        best hopes for success,
                                                                                                                        Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        From: "jimheck@losch. net" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        Cc: yardbirdtrains@ yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't respond
                                                                                                                        right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am using their
                                                                                                                        web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working. They
                                                                                                                        showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc. Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3 hours on
                                                                                                                        the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all that
                                                                                                                        talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti virus
                                                                                                                        program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started. They
                                                                                                                        left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back to us.
                                                                                                                        Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out to some
                                                                                                                        other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the error
                                                                                                                        message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought they had
                                                                                                                        fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any messages even
                                                                                                                        from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send or receive
                                                                                                                        any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        Till then Happy Railroading Jim H



                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8966 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        Can someone pass this on to Jim ???

                                                                                                                        Maybe he'll see the posted message.......

                                                                                                                        **************

                                                                                                                        Error 553: Email is not configured to relay mail to address

                                                                                                                        Problem � Getting the response �Mail undeliverable to recipient(s) due to relay error.� The socket error number is commonly 501, 553, or 554 in the email response. In Outlook or Outlook Express, you will probably also have the error number 0x800ccc79.

                                                                                                                        Solution � Due to an upgrade on security to our sending mail server, some internet users will have to use �SMTP authentication�. The steps below will show you where to find the setting. 

                                                                                                                        Note: This is also the case with users that are connected up through another provider using a Visionary e-mail account.



                                                                                                                        Outlook Express
                                                                                                                        1. Click Tools then Accounts
                                                                                                                        2. Click Mail
                                                                                                                        3. Click Properties
                                                                                                                        4. Click Servers
                                                                                                                        5. In the Account Name field, it should be the first part of your email address (probably it's like this already).
                                                                                                                        6. Put a checkmark by My Server Requires Authentication at the bottom of the page.
                                                                                                                        7. Click Settings
                                                                                                                        8. Select Log on Using
                                                                                                                          • Type Account Name (which will be your full email address)
                                                                                                                          • Type Password (which will be your email address password)
                                                                                                                        9. Click Apply
                                                                                                                        10. Click OK
                                                                                                                        11. Click Close

                                                                                                                        This should fix the Outlook Express to send email, close Outlook Express and re-open it to start sending mail.
                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        Microsoft Outlook

                                                                                                                        1. Click Tools then Email Accounts (Accounts and Services on older versions of Outlook)
                                                                                                                        2. Click View and Change and Click Next (skip if it opens up to the account screen)
                                                                                                                        3. Click Change or Properties of your Email Account
                                                                                                                        4. Click More Settings
                                                                                                                        5. Click Outgoing Server
                                                                                                                        6. Check My Server Uses Authentication
                                                                                                                        7. Select Log on Using
                                                                                                                          • Type Account Name (which will be your full email address)
                                                                                                                          • Type Password (which will be your email address password)
                                                                                                                        8. Click OK
                                                                                                                        9. Click Next
                                                                                                                        10. Click Finish


                                                                                                                        This should fix the Outlook to send email. Close Outlook and re-open it to start sending mail.


                                                                                                                        **************
                                                                                                                        Best to ya,
                                                                                                                        Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                        Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                        On Mar 11, 2009, at 7:06 AM, jimheck@... wrote:

                                                                                                                        error 553
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8967 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        I use Outlook Express to download many of my emails into one place. Yahoo mail stopped allowing its email to be downloaded a couple of years ago. I found a third party program that would download Yahoo anyway, that is, up to a few months ago. Yahoo must have caught on and changed something because my Yahoo mail would sometimes work and not others. Sending was the same problem. I've given up on Yahoo mail and am now using mail through GoDaddy and Gmail. Since then, no problems.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Steve
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 11:05 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        Your problem may very well be the Outlook, I quit using Outlook years ago, because Microsoft never could get it to work, I just use my web browser and view my email via yahoo..........:o)
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Gary W
                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                        From: "jimheck@..." <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Cc: yardbirdtrains@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't respond
                                                                                                                        right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am using their
                                                                                                                        web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working. They
                                                                                                                        showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc. Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3 hours on
                                                                                                                        the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all that
                                                                                                                        talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti virus
                                                                                                                        program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started. They
                                                                                                                        left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back to us.
                                                                                                                        Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out to some
                                                                                                                        other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the error
                                                                                                                        message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought they had
                                                                                                                        fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any messages even
                                                                                                                        from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send or receive
                                                                                                                        any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        Till then Happy Railroading Jim H
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8968 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        My "war story" re: anti-virus--
                                                                                                                        I started with McAfee--then on downloading an update, everything crashed.
                                                                                                                        After most of an hour on the phone with "Apu"* at $3 a minute (which I
                                                                                                                        rejected paying since I kept having to ask him to repeat) I dumped them and
                                                                                                                        went to Norton. Norton worked fairly well for several years--then I had
                                                                                                                        trouble loading a program and took the main box to the local computer
                                                                                                                        mechanic. He fixed what was wrong--and found that the Norton was not
                                                                                                                        working. He installed the AVG and so far I am happy with it. One
                                                                                                                        thing--about the updates--do they come in automatically or do I have to go
                                                                                                                        look for them?

                                                                                                                        gj * Simpsons reference-- Kwik-e-Mart

                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@...>
                                                                                                                        To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 11:32 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Problems


                                                                                                                        The IT department where I work strongly recommends AVG and says foul things
                                                                                                                        about McAfee's (and other "big name" products) bloated size and usurping of
                                                                                                                        processor resources.

                                                                                                                        I use McAfee at home and it seems pretty powerful, but is a glutton. It
                                                                                                                        used to really get in the way checking emails coming in, but they've done
                                                                                                                        something to make it rather fast for that now. (By the way, smart geeky
                                                                                                                        people call it "McFatee".)

                                                                                                                        I have also used Spyware doctor (seems sluggish) and SuperAntiSpyware (seems
                                                                                                                        pretty good).

                                                                                                                        I'm helping a ladyfriend with the tribulations of getting her first
                                                                                                                        computer, and we will be using AVG.

                                                                                                                        Will also be deleting assorted "crapware" and "bloatware" that tends to come
                                                                                                                        preloaded on new computers. And very likely at least some of that is on
                                                                                                                        most of the computers this email will reach.

                                                                                                                        Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > I'm not smart enough to rate the merits of any program. Symantec had
                                                                                                                        > worked for years with no problem. I hope this AVG as good as people claim.
                                                                                                                        > Hopefully this episode / problem might help others if they use Symantec
                                                                                                                        > and have Email problems.
                                                                                                                        > Well enough of computers and back to HO trains.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        > From: Victor Bitleris
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:38 PM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Good luck. At work, we are REQUIRED to us Symantec. At home, I use AVG
                                                                                                                        > and have for years and am THRILLED with it. At work, well, you gotta do
                                                                                                                        > what they tell you. I think you can tell how I feel about Symantec.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        > From: jimheck@...
                                                                                                                        > Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:08:45 -0400
                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > To all that replied with help for my computer problem THANK
                                                                                                                        > YOU. My internet provider has found out the problem. It has to do with
                                                                                                                        > SYMANTEC anti virus program. My computer was uploaded the other night with
                                                                                                                        > new information/security alerts.This was the night before I had any
                                                                                                                        > problems. For what ever the reason the new addition shut down to tight my
                                                                                                                        > Email. I had to uninstall it, after having it for 5 years at least with no
                                                                                                                        > problem, and install a program called AVG which my internet provider
                                                                                                                        > recommended. It's a free download and they told me AVG stands for "A Very
                                                                                                                        > Good" anti virus program. It had nothing to do with my Outlook Express
                                                                                                                        > which I have used for years without a problem.
                                                                                                                        > Hopefully the Symantec program is the problem and things are good
                                                                                                                        > to go.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        > From: Chris B
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:37 PM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim, I'm only offering sympathy without any suggestions or solutions,
                                                                                                                        > but that can't hurt.
                                                                                                                        > I could join a vintage computer group if I wanted to I guess, I've got
                                                                                                                        > as much time in as anyone who bought systems in the early 80's & knows
                                                                                                                        > what 8" floppies and 300 baud modems are...I hung on to too many old
                                                                                                                        > computers for too many years...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > but my wife has more chops than I do, and she had Kaypros and
                                                                                                                        > Osbornes, so I listen to her advice even though I'm the office IT techie
                                                                                                                        > in my group at work...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > so here's the sympathy part, she has a great phrase for such moments,
                                                                                                                        > whether she or someone else is doing the trouble shooting, and anyone in
                                                                                                                        > this group who has chased down a short in an all metal engine will
                                                                                                                        > recognize how it fits more situations than just computer problems....
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > it's what she calls it when you, or they, think they almost have it
                                                                                                                        > and if they just tweak this one thing and then restart it all it will
                                                                                                                        > finally all be fine,
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > When it stretches out for hours or days, and you still think just one
                                                                                                                        > more tweak with this newly added fix will do the trick..
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > she calls it "15 minutes from greatness". Do what you can to cope,
                                                                                                                        > maybe it's your layout telling you it wants more quality time!
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > This group benefits from your wisdom and it no doubt it feels your
                                                                                                                        > pain,
                                                                                                                        > best hopes for success,
                                                                                                                        > Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > From: "jimheck@..." <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        > Cc: yardbirdtrains@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't
                                                                                                                        > respond
                                                                                                                        > right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am
                                                                                                                        > using their
                                                                                                                        > web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working.
                                                                                                                        > They
                                                                                                                        > showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc.
                                                                                                                        > Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        > could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3
                                                                                                                        > hours on
                                                                                                                        > the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all
                                                                                                                        > that
                                                                                                                        > talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti
                                                                                                                        > virus
                                                                                                                        > program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started.
                                                                                                                        > They
                                                                                                                        > left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back
                                                                                                                        > to us.
                                                                                                                        > Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out
                                                                                                                        > to some
                                                                                                                        > other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the
                                                                                                                        > error
                                                                                                                        > message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought
                                                                                                                        > they had
                                                                                                                        > fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any
                                                                                                                        > messages even
                                                                                                                        > from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send
                                                                                                                        > or receive
                                                                                                                        > any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        > I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        > problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        > Till then Happy Railroading Jim H
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        > Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date:
                                                                                                                        > 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                        > Windows LiveT Contacts: Organize your contact list. Check it out.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        > Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date:
                                                                                                                        > 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        >




                                                                                                                        ------------------------------------

                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links





                                                                                                                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09
                                                                                                                        08:28:00
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8969 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        I can relate to some of the horror stories. I am a PC tech by trade, and was called into a car dealership to figure out why some machines could not access the internet, but could access their VPN (Virtual Private Network) that connected to a bank (Or something similar).

                                                                                                                        Turned out some of the machines had Norton on them, and Norton's firewall as blocking Internet Explorer from accessing the internet.

                                                                                                                        Dumb, or what?

                                                                                                                        Now, to steer this a little closer to on topic, now that I am getting a store going here, and my 70+ computers I have in inventory are out of my home, I have time for my railroad again. Been getting work done by leaps and bounds.

                                                                                                                        Truth be told, when I am home, what I enjoy most about the vintage trains, is NO MICROCHIPS! My friends do say that in my professional life, I am high tech, but in my personal life, it may as well be 1940 again.

                                                                                                                        -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                        --- On Wed, 3/11/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                        From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 7:23 PM

                                                                                                                        My "war story" re: anti-virus--
                                                                                                                        I started with McAfee--then on downloading an update, everything crashed.
                                                                                                                        After most of an hour on the phone with "Apu"* at $3 a minute (which I
                                                                                                                        rejected paying since I kept having to ask him to repeat) I dumped them and
                                                                                                                        went to Norton. Norton worked fairly well for several years--then I had
                                                                                                                        trouble loading a program and took the main box to the local computer
                                                                                                                        mechanic. He fixed what was wrong--and found that the Norton was not
                                                                                                                        working. He installed the AVG and so far I am happy with it. One
                                                                                                                        thing--about the updates--do they come in automatically or do I have to go
                                                                                                                        look for them?

                                                                                                                        gj * Simpsons reference-- Kwik-e-Mart

                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@att. net>
                                                                                                                        To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 11:32 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Problems

                                                                                                                        The IT department where I work strongly recommends AVG and says foul things
                                                                                                                        about McAfee's (and other "big name" products) bloated size and usurping of
                                                                                                                        processor resources.

                                                                                                                        I use McAfee at home and it seems pretty powerful, but is a glutton. It
                                                                                                                        used to really get in the way checking emails coming in, but they've done
                                                                                                                        something to make it rather fast for that now. (By the way, smart geeky
                                                                                                                        people call it "McFatee".)

                                                                                                                        I have also used Spyware doctor (seems sluggish) and SuperAntiSpyware (seems
                                                                                                                        pretty good).

                                                                                                                        I'm helping a ladyfriend with the tribulations of getting her first
                                                                                                                        computer, and we will be using AVG.

                                                                                                                        Will also be deleting assorted "crapware" and "bloatware" that tends to come
                                                                                                                        preloaded on new computers. And very likely at least some of that is on
                                                                                                                        most of the computers this email will reach.

                                                                                                                        Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > I'm not smart enough to rate the merits of any program. Symantec had
                                                                                                                        > worked for years with no problem. I hope this AVG as good as people claim.
                                                                                                                        > Hopefully this episode / problem might help others if they use Symantec
                                                                                                                        > and have Email problems.
                                                                                                                        > Well enough of computers and back to HO trains.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        > From: Victor Bitleris
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:38 PM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Good luck. At work, we are REQUIRED to us Symantec. At home, I use AVG
                                                                                                                        > and have for years and am THRILLED with it. At work, well, you gotta do
                                                                                                                        > what they tell you. I think you can tell how I feel about Symantec.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > From: jimheck@...
                                                                                                                        > Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:08:45 -0400
                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > To all that replied with help for my computer problem THANK
                                                                                                                        > YOU. My internet provider has found out the problem. It has to do with
                                                                                                                        > SYMANTEC anti virus program. My computer was uploaded the other night with
                                                                                                                        > new information/ security alerts.This was the night before I had any
                                                                                                                        > problems. For what ever the reason the new addition shut down to tight my
                                                                                                                        > Email. I had to uninstall it, after having it for 5 years at least with no
                                                                                                                        > problem, and install a program called AVG which my internet provider
                                                                                                                        > recommended. It's a free download and they told me AVG stands for "A Very
                                                                                                                        > Good" anti virus program. It had nothing to do with my Outlook Express
                                                                                                                        > which I have used for years without a problem.
                                                                                                                        > Hopefully the Symantec program is the problem and things are good
                                                                                                                        > to go.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        > From: Chris B
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:37 PM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim, I'm only offering sympathy without any suggestions or solutions,
                                                                                                                        > but that can't hurt.
                                                                                                                        > I could join a vintage computer group if I wanted to I guess, I've got
                                                                                                                        > as much time in as anyone who bought systems in the early 80's & knows
                                                                                                                        > what 8" floppies and 300 baud modems are...I hung on to too many old
                                                                                                                        > computers for too many years...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > but my wife has more chops than I do, and she had Kaypros and
                                                                                                                        > Osbornes, so I listen to her advice even though I'm the office IT techie
                                                                                                                        > in my group at work...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > so here's the sympathy part, she has a great phrase for such moments,
                                                                                                                        > whether she or someone else is doing the trouble shooting, and anyone in
                                                                                                                        > this group who has chased down a short in an all metal engine will
                                                                                                                        > recognize how it fits more situations than just computer problems....
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > it's what she calls it when you, or they, think they almost have it
                                                                                                                        > and if they just tweak this one thing and then restart it all it will
                                                                                                                        > finally all be fine,
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > When it stretches out for hours or days, and you still think just one
                                                                                                                        > more tweak with this newly added fix will do the trick..
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > she calls it "15 minutes from greatness". Do what you can to cope,
                                                                                                                        > maybe it's your layout telling you it wants more quality time!
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > This group benefits from your wisdom and it no doubt it feels your
                                                                                                                        > pain,
                                                                                                                        > best hopes for success,
                                                                                                                        > Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > From: "jimheck@... " <jimheck@... >
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > Cc: yardbirdtrains@ yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't
                                                                                                                        > respond
                                                                                                                        > right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am
                                                                                                                        > using their
                                                                                                                        > web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working.
                                                                                                                        > They
                                                                                                                        > showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc.
                                                                                                                        > Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        > could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3
                                                                                                                        > hours on
                                                                                                                        > the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all
                                                                                                                        > that
                                                                                                                        > talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti
                                                                                                                        > virus
                                                                                                                        > program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started.
                                                                                                                        > They
                                                                                                                        > left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back
                                                                                                                        > to us.
                                                                                                                        > Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out
                                                                                                                        > to some
                                                                                                                        > other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the
                                                                                                                        > error
                                                                                                                        > message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought
                                                                                                                        > they had
                                                                                                                        > fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any
                                                                                                                        > messages even
                                                                                                                        > from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send
                                                                                                                        > or receive
                                                                                                                        > any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        > I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        > problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        > Till then Happy Railroading Jim H
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        > Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date:
                                                                                                                        > 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        > Windows LiveT Contacts: Organize your contact list. Check it out.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        > Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date:
                                                                                                                        > 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        >

                                                                                                                        ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                                                                                        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09
                                                                                                                        08:28:00
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8970 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems - For Glenn
                                                                                                                        Glenn, the updates for AVG can be either automatic or manual.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Depends om your settings. If you go into its "control center" and scroll around generally(I forget the exact sequence, but it's fairly intuitive), you should be able to find the scheduler. Set it up to suit your taste.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        When they change versions(bigger update, also free), you will be notified of that too.

                                                                                                                        --- On Wed, 3/11/09, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                        From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 9:08 PM

                                                                                                                        I can relate to some of the horror stories. I am a PC tech by trade, and was called into a car dealership to figure out why some machines could not access the internet, but could access their VPN (Virtual Private Network) that connected to a bank (Or something similar).

                                                                                                                        Turned out some of the machines had Norton on them, and Norton's firewall as blocking Internet Explorer from accessing the internet.

                                                                                                                        Dumb, or what?

                                                                                                                        Now, to steer this a little closer to on topic, now that I am getting a store going here, and my 70+ computers I have in inventory are out of my home, I have time for my railroad again. Been getting work done by leaps and bounds.

                                                                                                                        Truth be told, when I am home, what I enjoy most about the vintage trains, is NO MICROCHIPS! My friends do say that in my professional life, I am high tech, but in my personal life, it may as well be 1940 again.

                                                                                                                        -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                        --- On Wed, 3/11/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                        From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 7:23 PM

                                                                                                                        My "war story" re: anti-virus--
                                                                                                                        I started with McAfee--then on downloading an update, everything crashed.
                                                                                                                        After most of an hour on the phone with "Apu"* at $3 a minute (which I
                                                                                                                        rejected paying since I kept having to ask him to repeat) I dumped them and
                                                                                                                        went to Norton. Norton worked fairly well for several years--then I had
                                                                                                                        trouble loading a program and took the main box to the local computer
                                                                                                                        mechanic. He fixed what was wrong--and found that the Norton was not
                                                                                                                        working. He installed the AVG and so far I am happy with it. One
                                                                                                                        thing--about the updates--do they come in automatically or do I have to go
                                                                                                                        look for them?

                                                                                                                        gj * Simpsons reference-- Kwik-e-Mart

                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@att. net>
                                                                                                                        To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 11:32 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Problems

                                                                                                                        The IT department where I work strongly recommends AVG and says foul things
                                                                                                                        about McAfee's (and other "big name" products) bloated size and usurping of
                                                                                                                        processor resources.

                                                                                                                        I use McAfee at home and it seems pretty powerful, but is a glutton. It
                                                                                                                        used to really get in the way checking emails coming in, but they've done
                                                                                                                        something to make it rather fast for that now. (By the way, smart geeky
                                                                                                                        people call it "McFatee".)

                                                                                                                        I have also used Spyware doctor (seems sluggish) and SuperAntiSpyware (seems
                                                                                                                        pretty good).

                                                                                                                        I'm helping a ladyfriend with the tribulations of getting her first
                                                                                                                        computer, and we will be using AVG.

                                                                                                                        Will also be deleting assorted "crapware" and "bloatware" that tends to come
                                                                                                                        preloaded on new computers. And very likely at least some of that is on
                                                                                                                        most of the computers this email will reach.

                                                                                                                        Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > I'm not smart enough to rate the merits of any program. Symantec had
                                                                                                                        > worked for years with no problem. I hope this AVG as good as people claim.
                                                                                                                        > Hopefully this episode / problem might help others if they use Symantec
                                                                                                                        > and have Email problems.
                                                                                                                        > Well enough of computers and back to HO trains.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        > From: Victor Bitleris
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:38 PM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Good luck. At work, we are REQUIRED to us Symantec. At home, I use AVG
                                                                                                                        > and have for years and am THRILLED with it. At work, well, you gotta do
                                                                                                                        > what they tell you. I think you can tell how I feel about Symantec.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > From: jimheck@...
                                                                                                                        > Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:08:45 -0400
                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > To all that replied with help for my computer problem THANK
                                                                                                                        > YOU. My internet provider has found out the problem. It has to do with
                                                                                                                        > SYMANTEC anti virus program. My computer was uploaded the other night with
                                                                                                                        > new information/ security alerts.This was the night before I had any
                                                                                                                        > problems. For what ever the reason the new addition shut down to tight my
                                                                                                                        > Email. I had to uninstall it, after having it for 5 years at least with no
                                                                                                                        > problem, and install a program called AVG which my internet provider
                                                                                                                        > recommended. It's a free download and they told me AVG stands for "A Very
                                                                                                                        > Good" anti virus program. It had nothing to do with my Outlook Express
                                                                                                                        > which I have used for years without a problem.
                                                                                                                        > Hopefully the Symantec program is the problem and things are good
                                                                                                                        > to go.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        > From: Chris B
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:37 PM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim, I'm only offering sympathy without any suggestions or solutions,
                                                                                                                        > but that can't hurt.
                                                                                                                        > I could join a vintage computer group if I wanted to I guess, I've got
                                                                                                                        > as much time in as anyone who bought systems in the early 80's & knows
                                                                                                                        > what 8" floppies and 300 baud modems are...I hung on to too many old
                                                                                                                        > computers for too many years...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > but my wife has more chops than I do, and she had Kaypros and
                                                                                                                        > Osbornes, so I listen to her advice even though I'm the office IT techie
                                                                                                                        > in my group at work...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > so here's the sympathy part, she has a great phrase for such moments,
                                                                                                                        > whether she or someone else is doing the trouble shooting, and anyone in
                                                                                                                        > this group who has chased down a short in an all metal engine will
                                                                                                                        > recognize how it fits more situations than just computer problems....
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > it's what she calls it when you, or they, think they almost have it
                                                                                                                        > and if they just tweak this one thing and then restart it all it will
                                                                                                                        > finally all be fine,
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > When it stretches out for hours or days, and you still think just one
                                                                                                                        > more tweak with this newly added fix will do the trick..
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > she calls it "15 minutes from greatness". Do what you can to cope,
                                                                                                                        > maybe it's your layout telling you it wants more quality time!
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > This group benefits from your wisdom and it no doubt it feels your
                                                                                                                        > pain,
                                                                                                                        > best hopes for success,
                                                                                                                        > Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > From: "jimheck@... " <jimheck@... >
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > Cc: yardbirdtrains@ yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't
                                                                                                                        > respond
                                                                                                                        > right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am
                                                                                                                        > using their
                                                                                                                        > web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working.
                                                                                                                        > They
                                                                                                                        > showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc.
                                                                                                                        > Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        > could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3
                                                                                                                        > hours on
                                                                                                                        > the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all
                                                                                                                        > that
                                                                                                                        > talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti
                                                                                                                        > virus
                                                                                                                        > program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started.
                                                                                                                        > They
                                                                                                                        > left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back
                                                                                                                        > to us.
                                                                                                                        > Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out
                                                                                                                        > to some
                                                                                                                        > other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the
                                                                                                                        > error
                                                                                                                        > message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought
                                                                                                                        > they had
                                                                                                                        > fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any
                                                                                                                        > messages even
                                                                                                                        > from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send
                                                                                                                        > or receive
                                                                                                                        > any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        > I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        > problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        > Till then Happy Railroading Jim H
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        > Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date:
                                                                                                                        > 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        > Windows LiveT Contacts: Organize your contact list. Check it out.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        > Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date:
                                                                                                                        > 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        >

                                                                                                                        ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                                                                                        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09
                                                                                                                        08:28:00
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8971 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                            Mike,
                                                                                                                                      I got this message. Thanks. I'll check it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Jim
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:11 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        Can someone pass this on to Jim ???


                                                                                                                        Maybe he'll see the posted message..... ..

                                                                                                                        ************ **

                                                                                                                        Error 553: Email is not configured to relay mail to address

                                                                                                                        Problem � Getting the response �Mail undeliverable to recipient(s) due to relay error.� The socket error number is commonly 501, 553, or 554 in the email response. In Outlook or Outlook Express, you will probably also have the error number 0x800ccc79.

                                                                                                                        Solution � Due to an upgrade on security to our sending mail server, some internet users will have to use �SMTP authentication�. The steps below will show you where to find the setting. 

                                                                                                                        Note: This is also the case with users that are connected up through another provider using a Visionary e-mail account.



                                                                                                                        Outlook Express
                                                                                                                        1. Click Tools then Accounts
                                                                                                                        2. Click Mail
                                                                                                                        3. Click Properties
                                                                                                                        4. Click Servers
                                                                                                                        5. In the Account Name field, it should be the first part of your email address (probably it's like this already).
                                                                                                                        6. Put a checkmark by My Server Requires Authentication at the bottom of the page.
                                                                                                                        7. Click Settings
                                                                                                                        8. Select Log on Using
                                                                                                                          • Type Account Name (which will be your full email address)
                                                                                                                          • Type Password (which will be your email address password)
                                                                                                                        9. Click Apply
                                                                                                                        10. Click OK
                                                                                                                        11. Click Close

                                                                                                                        This should fix the Outlook Express to send email, close Outlook Express and re-open it to start sending mail.
                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        Microsoft Outlook

                                                                                                                        1. Click Tools then Email Accounts (Accounts and Services on older versions of Outlook)
                                                                                                                        2. Click View and Change and Click Next (skip if it opens up to the account screen)
                                                                                                                        3. Click Change or Properties of your Email Account
                                                                                                                        4. Click More Settings
                                                                                                                        5. Click Outgoing Server
                                                                                                                        6. Check My Server Uses Authentication
                                                                                                                        7. Select Log on Using
                                                                                                                          • Type Account Name (which will be your full email address)
                                                                                                                          • Type Password (which will be your email address password)
                                                                                                                        8. Click OK
                                                                                                                        9. Click Next
                                                                                                                        10. Click Finish


                                                                                                                        This should fix the Outlook to send email. Close Outlook and re-open it to start sending mail.


                                                                                                                        ************ **
                                                                                                                        Best to ya,
                                                                                                                        Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                        Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                        On Mar 11, 2009, at 7:06 AM, jimheck@losch. net wrote:

                                                                                                                        error 553


                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8972 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                        Mike,
                                                                                                                           Maybe you can answer me WHY ( and I hope at that time I can receive the answer) my computer worked for weeks (so it must have been configured right) and then overnight error 553 pops up. I can send messages one time. like now, and in a couple hours try to send again and it won't because of error 553. Then that message might sit there for two more hours and then goes out and I did nothing. It's like something keeps changing and I'm doing nothing. My tech support scratching their heads. If no one hears from me for a while it's not working or I threw it against the wall.
                                                                                                                                         I hate PC's       Jim H
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:11 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        Can someone pass this on to Jim ???


                                                                                                                        Maybe he'll see the posted message..... ..

                                                                                                                        ************ **

                                                                                                                        Error 553: Email is not configured to relay mail to address

                                                                                                                        Problem � Getting the response �Mail undeliverable to recipient(s) due to relay error.� The socket error number is commonly 501, 553, or 554 in the email response. In Outlook or Outlook Express, you will probably also have the error number 0x800ccc79.

                                                                                                                        Solution � Due to an upgrade on security to our sending mail server, some internet users will have to use �SMTP authentication�. The steps below will show you where to find the setting. 

                                                                                                                        Note: This is also the case with users that are connected up through another provider using a Visionary e-mail account.



                                                                                                                        Outlook Express
                                                                                                                        1. Click Tools then Accounts
                                                                                                                        2. Click Mail
                                                                                                                        3. Click Properties
                                                                                                                        4. Click Servers
                                                                                                                        5. In the Account Name field, it should be the first part of your email address (probably it's like this already).
                                                                                                                        6. Put a checkmark by My Server Requires Authentication at the bottom of the page.
                                                                                                                        7. Click Settings
                                                                                                                        8. Select Log on Using
                                                                                                                          • Type Account Name (which will be your full email address)
                                                                                                                          • Type Password (which will be your email address password)
                                                                                                                        9. Click Apply
                                                                                                                        10. Click OK
                                                                                                                        11. Click Close

                                                                                                                        This should fix the Outlook Express to send email, close Outlook Express and re-open it to start sending mail.
                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        Microsoft Outlook

                                                                                                                        1. Click Tools then Email Accounts (Accounts and Services on older versions of Outlook)
                                                                                                                        2. Click View and Change and Click Next (skip if it opens up to the account screen)
                                                                                                                        3. Click Change or Properties of your Email Account
                                                                                                                        4. Click More Settings
                                                                                                                        5. Click Outgoing Server
                                                                                                                        6. Check My Server Uses Authentication
                                                                                                                        7. Select Log on Using
                                                                                                                          • Type Account Name (which will be your full email address)
                                                                                                                          • Type Password (which will be your email address password)
                                                                                                                        8. Click OK
                                                                                                                        9. Click Next
                                                                                                                        10. Click Finish


                                                                                                                        This should fix the Outlook to send email. Close Outlook and re-open it to start sending mail.


                                                                                                                        ************ **
                                                                                                                        Best to ya,
                                                                                                                        Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                        Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                        On Mar 11, 2009, at 7:06 AM, jimheck@losch. net wrote:

                                                                                                                        error 553


                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8973 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        somewhere in my collection of PCR Commemorative cars I have the "ultimate" Cjo[ Car.  This uses two definitions.  The Palo Alto convention in the early 90's  (upper Silicon Valley) had a wood chip car--the first word not usually used-  I got a bunch of those little black things with all the legs--and loaded it with them.  Definitely a "Chip Car"   
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 6:08 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Problems

                                                                                                                        I can relate to some of the horror stories. I am a PC tech by trade, and was called into a car dealership to figure out why some machines could not access the internet, but could access their VPN (Virtual Private Network) that connected to a bank (Or something similar).

                                                                                                                        Turned out some of the machines had Norton on them, and Norton's firewall as blocking Internet Explorer from accessing the internet.

                                                                                                                        Dumb, or what?

                                                                                                                        Now, to steer this a little closer to on topic, now that I am getting a store going here, and my 70+ computers I have in inventory are out of my home, I have time for my railroad again. Been getting work done by leaps and bounds.

                                                                                                                        Truth be told, when I am home, what I enjoy most about the vintage trains, is NO MICROCHIPS! My friends do say that in my professional life, I am high tech, but in my personal life, it may as well be 1940 again.

                                                                                                                        -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                        --- On Wed, 3/11/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                        From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 7:23 PM

                                                                                                                        My "war story" re: anti-virus--
                                                                                                                        I started with McAfee--then on downloading an update, everything crashed.
                                                                                                                        After most of an hour on the phone with "Apu"* at $3 a minute (which I
                                                                                                                        rejected paying since I kept having to ask him to repeat) I dumped them and
                                                                                                                        went to Norton. Norton worked fairly well for several years--then I had
                                                                                                                        trouble loading a program and took the main box to the local computer
                                                                                                                        mechanic. He fixed what was wrong--and found that the Norton was not
                                                                                                                        working. He installed the AVG and so far I am happy with it. One
                                                                                                                        thing--about the updates--do they come in automatically or do I have to go
                                                                                                                        look for them?

                                                                                                                        gj * Simpsons reference-- Kwik-e-Mart

                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@att. net>
                                                                                                                        To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 11:32 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Problems

                                                                                                                        The IT department where I work strongly recommends AVG and says foul things
                                                                                                                        about McAfee's (and other "big name" products) bloated size and usurping of
                                                                                                                        processor resources.

                                                                                                                        I use McAfee at home and it seems pretty powerful, but is a glutton. It
                                                                                                                        used to really get in the way checking emails coming in, but they've done
                                                                                                                        something to make it rather fast for that now. (By the way, smart geeky
                                                                                                                        people call it "McFatee".)

                                                                                                                        I have also used Spyware doctor (seems sluggish) and SuperAntiSpyware (seems
                                                                                                                        pretty good).

                                                                                                                        I'm helping a ladyfriend with the tribulations of getting her first
                                                                                                                        computer, and we will be using AVG.

                                                                                                                        Will also be deleting assorted "crapware" and "bloatware" that tends to come
                                                                                                                        preloaded on new computers. And very likely at least some of that is on
                                                                                                                        most of the computers this email will reach.

                                                                                                                        Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > I'm not smart enough to rate the merits of any program. Symantec had
                                                                                                                        > worked for years with no problem. I hope this AVG as good as people claim.
                                                                                                                        > Hopefully this episode / problem might help others if they use Symantec
                                                                                                                        > and have Email problems.
                                                                                                                        > Well enough of computers and back to HO trains.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        > From: Victor Bitleris
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:38 PM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Good luck. At work, we are REQUIRED to us Symantec. At home, I use AVG
                                                                                                                        > and have for years and am THRILLED with it. At work, well, you gotta do
                                                                                                                        > what they tell you. I think you can tell how I feel about Symantec.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > From: jimheck@...
                                                                                                                        > Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:08:45 -0400
                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > To all that replied with help for my computer problem THANK
                                                                                                                        > YOU. My internet provider has found out the problem. It has to do with
                                                                                                                        > SYMANTEC anti virus program. My computer was uploaded the other night with
                                                                                                                        > new information/ security alerts.This was the night before I had any
                                                                                                                        > problems. For what ever the reason the new addition shut down to tight my
                                                                                                                        > Email. I had to uninstall it, after having it for 5 years at least with no
                                                                                                                        > problem, and install a program called AVG which my internet provider
                                                                                                                        > recommended. It's a free download and they told me AVG stands for "A Very
                                                                                                                        > Good" anti virus program. It had nothing to do with my Outlook Express
                                                                                                                        > which I have used for years without a problem.
                                                                                                                        > Hopefully the Symantec program is the problem and things are good
                                                                                                                        > to go.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        > From: Chris B
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:37 PM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim, I'm only offering sympathy without any suggestions or solutions,
                                                                                                                        > but that can't hurt.
                                                                                                                        > I could join a vintage computer group if I wanted to I guess, I've got
                                                                                                                        > as much time in as anyone who bought systems in the early 80's & knows
                                                                                                                        > what 8" floppies and 300 baud modems are...I hung on to too many old
                                                                                                                        > computers for too many years...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > but my wife has more chops than I do, and she had Kaypros and
                                                                                                                        > Osbornes, so I listen to her advice even though I'm the office IT techie
                                                                                                                        > in my group at work...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > so here's the sympathy part, she has a great phrase for such moments,
                                                                                                                        > whether she or someone else is doing the trouble shooting, and anyone in
                                                                                                                        > this group who has chased down a short in an all metal engine will
                                                                                                                        > recognize how it fits more situations than just computer problems....
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > it's what she calls it when you, or they, think they almost have it
                                                                                                                        > and if they just tweak this one thing and then restart it all it will
                                                                                                                        > finally all be fine,
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > When it stretches out for hours or days, and you still think just one
                                                                                                                        > more tweak with this newly added fix will do the trick..
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > she calls it "15 minutes from greatness". Do what you can to cope,
                                                                                                                        > maybe it's your layout telling you it wants more quality time!
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > This group benefits from your wisdom and it no doubt it feels your
                                                                                                                        > pain,
                                                                                                                        > best hopes for success,
                                                                                                                        > Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > From: "jimheck@... " <jimheck@... >
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > Cc: yardbirdtrains@ yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't
                                                                                                                        > respond
                                                                                                                        > right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am
                                                                                                                        > using their
                                                                                                                        > web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working.
                                                                                                                        > They
                                                                                                                        > showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc.
                                                                                                                        > Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        > could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3
                                                                                                                        > hours on
                                                                                                                        > the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all
                                                                                                                        > that
                                                                                                                        > talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti
                                                                                                                        > virus
                                                                                                                        > program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started.
                                                                                                                        > They
                                                                                                                        > left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back
                                                                                                                        > to us.
                                                                                                                        > Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out
                                                                                                                        > to some
                                                                                                                        > other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the
                                                                                                                        > error
                                                                                                                        > message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought
                                                                                                                        > they had
                                                                                                                        > fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any
                                                                                                                        > messages even
                                                                                                                        > from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send
                                                                                                                        > or receive
                                                                                                                        > any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        > I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        > problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        > Till then Happy Railroading Jim H
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        > Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date:
                                                                                                                        > 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        > Windows LiveT Contacts: Organize your contact list. Check it out.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        > Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date:
                                                                                                                        > 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        >

                                                                                                                        ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                                                                                        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09
                                                                                                                        08:28:00


                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8974 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems - For Glenn
                                                                                                                        I'll ask the mechanic what he set.   thx   gj
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 6:21 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Problems - For Glenn

                                                                                                                        Glenn, the updates for AVG can be either automatic or manual.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Depends om your settings. If you go into its "control center" and scroll around generally(I forget the exact sequence, but it's fairly intuitive), you should be able to find the scheduler. Set it up to suit your taste.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        When they change versions(bigger update, also free), you will be notified of that too.

                                                                                                                        --- On Wed, 3/11/09, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                        From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 9:08 PM

                                                                                                                        I can relate to some of the horror stories. I am a PC tech by trade, and was called into a car dealership to figure out why some machines could not access the internet, but could access their VPN (Virtual Private Network) that connected to a bank (Or something similar).

                                                                                                                        Turned out some of the machines had Norton on them, and Norton's firewall as blocking Internet Explorer from accessing the internet.

                                                                                                                        Dumb, or what?

                                                                                                                        Now, to steer this a little closer to on topic, now that I am getting a store going here, and my 70+ computers I have in inventory are out of my home, I have time for my railroad again. Been getting work done by leaps and bounds.

                                                                                                                        Truth be told, when I am home, what I enjoy most about the vintage trains, is NO MICROCHIPS! My friends do say that in my professional life, I am high tech, but in my personal life, it may as well be 1940 again.

                                                                                                                        -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                        --- On Wed, 3/11/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                        From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 7:23 PM

                                                                                                                        My "war story" re: anti-virus--
                                                                                                                        I started with McAfee--then on downloading an update, everything crashed.
                                                                                                                        After most of an hour on the phone with "Apu"* at $3 a minute (which I
                                                                                                                        rejected paying since I kept having to ask him to repeat) I dumped them and
                                                                                                                        went to Norton. Norton worked fairly well for several years--then I had
                                                                                                                        trouble loading a program and took the main box to the local computer
                                                                                                                        mechanic. He fixed what was wrong--and found that the Norton was not
                                                                                                                        working. He installed the AVG and so far I am happy with it. One
                                                                                                                        thing--about the updates--do they come in automatically or do I have to go
                                                                                                                        look for them?

                                                                                                                        gj * Simpsons reference-- Kwik-e-Mart

                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@att. net>
                                                                                                                        To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 11:32 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Problems

                                                                                                                        The IT department where I work strongly recommends AVG and says foul things
                                                                                                                        about McAfee's (and other "big name" products) bloated size and usurping of
                                                                                                                        processor resources.

                                                                                                                        I use McAfee at home and it seems pretty powerful, but is a glutton. It
                                                                                                                        used to really get in the way checking emails coming in, but they've done
                                                                                                                        something to make it rather fast for that now. (By the way, smart geeky
                                                                                                                        people call it "McFatee".)

                                                                                                                        I have also used Spyware doctor (seems sluggish) and SuperAntiSpyware (seems
                                                                                                                        pretty good).

                                                                                                                        I'm helping a ladyfriend with the tribulations of getting her first
                                                                                                                        computer, and we will be using AVG.

                                                                                                                        Will also be deleting assorted "crapware" and "bloatware" that tends to come
                                                                                                                        preloaded on new computers. And very likely at least some of that is on
                                                                                                                        most of the computers this email will reach.

                                                                                                                        Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > I'm not smart enough to rate the merits of any program. Symantec had
                                                                                                                        > worked for years with no problem. I hope this AVG as good as people claim.
                                                                                                                        > Hopefully this episode / problem might help others if they use Symantec
                                                                                                                        > and have Email problems.
                                                                                                                        > Well enough of computers and back to HO trains.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        > From: Victor Bitleris
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:38 PM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Good luck. At work, we are REQUIRED to us Symantec. At home, I use AVG
                                                                                                                        > and have for years and am THRILLED with it. At work, well, you gotta do
                                                                                                                        > what they tell you. I think you can tell how I feel about Symantec.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > From: jimheck@...
                                                                                                                        > Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:08:45 -0400
                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > To all that replied with help for my computer problem THANK
                                                                                                                        > YOU. My internet provider has found out the problem. It has to do with
                                                                                                                        > SYMANTEC anti virus program. My computer was uploaded the other night with
                                                                                                                        > new information/ security alerts.This was the night before I had any
                                                                                                                        > problems. For what ever the reason the new addition shut down to tight my
                                                                                                                        > Email. I had to uninstall it, after having it for 5 years at least with no
                                                                                                                        > problem, and install a program called AVG which my internet provider
                                                                                                                        > recommended. It's a free download and they told me AVG stands for "A Very
                                                                                                                        > Good" anti virus program. It had nothing to do with my Outlook Express
                                                                                                                        > which I have used for years without a problem.
                                                                                                                        > Hopefully the Symantec program is the problem and things are good
                                                                                                                        > to go.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        > From: Chris B
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:37 PM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim, I'm only offering sympathy without any suggestions or solutions,
                                                                                                                        > but that can't hurt.
                                                                                                                        > I could join a vintage computer group if I wanted to I guess, I've got
                                                                                                                        > as much time in as anyone who bought systems in the early 80's & knows
                                                                                                                        > what 8" floppies and 300 baud modems are...I hung on to too many old
                                                                                                                        > computers for too many years...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > but my wife has more chops than I do, and she had Kaypros and
                                                                                                                        > Osbornes, so I listen to her advice even though I'm the office IT techie
                                                                                                                        > in my group at work...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > so here's the sympathy part, she has a great phrase for such moments,
                                                                                                                        > whether she or someone else is doing the trouble shooting, and anyone in
                                                                                                                        > this group who has chased down a short in an all metal engine will
                                                                                                                        > recognize how it fits more situations than just computer problems....
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > it's what she calls it when you, or they, think they almost have it
                                                                                                                        > and if they just tweak this one thing and then restart it all it will
                                                                                                                        > finally all be fine,
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > When it stretches out for hours or days, and you still think just one
                                                                                                                        > more tweak with this newly added fix will do the trick..
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > she calls it "15 minutes from greatness". Do what you can to cope,
                                                                                                                        > maybe it's your layout telling you it wants more quality time!
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > This group benefits from your wisdom and it no doubt it feels your
                                                                                                                        > pain,
                                                                                                                        > best hopes for success,
                                                                                                                        > Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > From: "jimheck@... " <jimheck@... >
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > Cc: yardbirdtrains@ yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't
                                                                                                                        > respond
                                                                                                                        > right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am
                                                                                                                        > using their
                                                                                                                        > web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working.
                                                                                                                        > They
                                                                                                                        > showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc.
                                                                                                                        > Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        > could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3
                                                                                                                        > hours on
                                                                                                                        > the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all
                                                                                                                        > that
                                                                                                                        > talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti
                                                                                                                        > virus
                                                                                                                        > program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started.
                                                                                                                        > They
                                                                                                                        > left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back
                                                                                                                        > to us.
                                                                                                                        > Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out
                                                                                                                        > to some
                                                                                                                        > other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the
                                                                                                                        > error
                                                                                                                        > message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought
                                                                                                                        > they had
                                                                                                                        > fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any
                                                                                                                        > messages even
                                                                                                                        > from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send
                                                                                                                        > or receive
                                                                                                                        > any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        > I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        > problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        > Till then Happy Railroading Jim H
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        > Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date:
                                                                                                                        > 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        > Windows LiveT Contacts: Organize your contact list. Check it out.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        > Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date:
                                                                                                                        > 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        >

                                                                                                                        ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                                                                                        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09
                                                                                                                        08:28:00





                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8975 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems - For Glenn
                                                                                                                        I should clarify.  My impression of the computer and the IT specialist go back the late Jeff MacNelly's comic strip "Shoe"--which involves a bunch of birds in a tree who all work for a newspaper--I identify with" the Perfessor" Cosmo T. Fishhawk--who is periodically visited by the computer specialist--who is presented in medieval wizard's robes and cap, and wields a magic wand over the perfessor's computer.  gj
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 6:21 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Problems - For Glenn

                                                                                                                        Glenn, the updates for AVG can be either automatic or manual.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Depends om your settings. If you go into its "control center" and scroll around generally(I forget the exact sequence, but it's fairly intuitive), you should be able to find the scheduler. Set it up to suit your taste.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        When they change versions(bigger update, also free), you will be notified of that too.

                                                                                                                        --- On Wed, 3/11/09, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                        From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 9:08 PM

                                                                                                                        I can relate to some of the horror stories. I am a PC tech by trade, and was called into a car dealership to figure out why some machines could not access the internet, but could access their VPN (Virtual Private Network) that connected to a bank (Or something similar).

                                                                                                                        Turned out some of the machines had Norton on them, and Norton's firewall as blocking Internet Explorer from accessing the internet.

                                                                                                                        Dumb, or what?

                                                                                                                        Now, to steer this a little closer to on topic, now that I am getting a store going here, and my 70+ computers I have in inventory are out of my home, I have time for my railroad again. Been getting work done by leaps and bounds.

                                                                                                                        Truth be told, when I am home, what I enjoy most about the vintage trains, is NO MICROCHIPS! My friends do say that in my professional life, I am high tech, but in my personal life, it may as well be 1940 again.

                                                                                                                        -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                        --- On Wed, 3/11/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                        From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 7:23 PM

                                                                                                                        My "war story" re: anti-virus--
                                                                                                                        I started with McAfee--then on downloading an update, everything crashed.
                                                                                                                        After most of an hour on the phone with "Apu"* at $3 a minute (which I
                                                                                                                        rejected paying since I kept having to ask him to repeat) I dumped them and
                                                                                                                        went to Norton. Norton worked fairly well for several years--then I had
                                                                                                                        trouble loading a program and took the main box to the local computer
                                                                                                                        mechanic. He fixed what was wrong--and found that the Norton was not
                                                                                                                        working. He installed the AVG and so far I am happy with it. One
                                                                                                                        thing--about the updates--do they come in automatically or do I have to go
                                                                                                                        look for them?

                                                                                                                        gj * Simpsons reference-- Kwik-e-Mart

                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@att. net>
                                                                                                                        To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 11:32 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Problems

                                                                                                                        The IT department where I work strongly recommends AVG and says foul things
                                                                                                                        about McAfee's (and other "big name" products) bloated size and usurping of
                                                                                                                        processor resources.

                                                                                                                        I use McAfee at home and it seems pretty powerful, but is a glutton. It
                                                                                                                        used to really get in the way checking emails coming in, but they've done
                                                                                                                        something to make it rather fast for that now. (By the way, smart geeky
                                                                                                                        people call it "McFatee".)

                                                                                                                        I have also used Spyware doctor (seems sluggish) and SuperAntiSpyware (seems
                                                                                                                        pretty good).

                                                                                                                        I'm helping a ladyfriend with the tribulations of getting her first
                                                                                                                        computer, and we will be using AVG.

                                                                                                                        Will also be deleting assorted "crapware" and "bloatware" that tends to come
                                                                                                                        preloaded on new computers. And very likely at least some of that is on
                                                                                                                        most of the computers this email will reach.

                                                                                                                        Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > I'm not smart enough to rate the merits of any program. Symantec had
                                                                                                                        > worked for years with no problem. I hope this AVG as good as people claim.
                                                                                                                        > Hopefully this episode / problem might help others if they use Symantec
                                                                                                                        > and have Email problems.
                                                                                                                        > Well enough of computers and back to HO trains.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        > From: Victor Bitleris
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:38 PM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Good luck. At work, we are REQUIRED to us Symantec. At home, I use AVG
                                                                                                                        > and have for years and am THRILLED with it. At work, well, you gotta do
                                                                                                                        > what they tell you. I think you can tell how I feel about Symantec.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > From: jimheck@...
                                                                                                                        > Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:08:45 -0400
                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > To all that replied with help for my computer problem THANK
                                                                                                                        > YOU. My internet provider has found out the problem. It has to do with
                                                                                                                        > SYMANTEC anti virus program. My computer was uploaded the other night with
                                                                                                                        > new information/ security alerts.This was the night before I had any
                                                                                                                        > problems. For what ever the reason the new addition shut down to tight my
                                                                                                                        > Email. I had to uninstall it, after having it for 5 years at least with no
                                                                                                                        > problem, and install a program called AVG which my internet provider
                                                                                                                        > recommended. It's a free download and they told me AVG stands for "A Very
                                                                                                                        > Good" anti virus program. It had nothing to do with my Outlook Express
                                                                                                                        > which I have used for years without a problem.
                                                                                                                        > Hopefully the Symantec program is the problem and things are good
                                                                                                                        > to go.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        > From: Chris B
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:37 PM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim, I'm only offering sympathy without any suggestions or solutions,
                                                                                                                        > but that can't hurt.
                                                                                                                        > I could join a vintage computer group if I wanted to I guess, I've got
                                                                                                                        > as much time in as anyone who bought systems in the early 80's & knows
                                                                                                                        > what 8" floppies and 300 baud modems are...I hung on to too many old
                                                                                                                        > computers for too many years...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > but my wife has more chops than I do, and she had Kaypros and
                                                                                                                        > Osbornes, so I listen to her advice even though I'm the office IT techie
                                                                                                                        > in my group at work...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > so here's the sympathy part, she has a great phrase for such moments,
                                                                                                                        > whether she or someone else is doing the trouble shooting, and anyone in
                                                                                                                        > this group who has chased down a short in an all metal engine will
                                                                                                                        > recognize how it fits more situations than just computer problems....
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > it's what she calls it when you, or they, think they almost have it
                                                                                                                        > and if they just tweak this one thing and then restart it all it will
                                                                                                                        > finally all be fine,
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > When it stretches out for hours or days, and you still think just one
                                                                                                                        > more tweak with this newly added fix will do the trick..
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > she calls it "15 minutes from greatness". Do what you can to cope,
                                                                                                                        > maybe it's your layout telling you it wants more quality time!
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > This group benefits from your wisdom and it no doubt it feels your
                                                                                                                        > pain,
                                                                                                                        > best hopes for success,
                                                                                                                        > Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > From: "jimheck@... " <jimheck@... >
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > Cc: yardbirdtrains@ yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't
                                                                                                                        > respond
                                                                                                                        > right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am
                                                                                                                        > using their
                                                                                                                        > web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working.
                                                                                                                        > They
                                                                                                                        > showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc.
                                                                                                                        > Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        > could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3
                                                                                                                        > hours on
                                                                                                                        > the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all
                                                                                                                        > that
                                                                                                                        > talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti
                                                                                                                        > virus
                                                                                                                        > program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started.
                                                                                                                        > They
                                                                                                                        > left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back
                                                                                                                        > to us.
                                                                                                                        > Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out
                                                                                                                        > to some
                                                                                                                        > other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the
                                                                                                                        > error
                                                                                                                        > message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought
                                                                                                                        > they had
                                                                                                                        > fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any
                                                                                                                        > messages even
                                                                                                                        > from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send
                                                                                                                        > or receive
                                                                                                                        > any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        > I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        > problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        > Till then Happy Railroading Jim H
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        > Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date:
                                                                                                                        > 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        > Windows LiveT Contacts: Organize your contact list. Check it out.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        > Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date:
                                                                                                                        > 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        >

                                                                                                                        ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                                                                                        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09
                                                                                                                        08:28:00





                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8976 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Back to trains
                                                                                                                                   I have caused a lot of off topic information in an effort to help me with a computer problem. I thank everyone for the help but I think we should get back to HO trains.
                                                                                                                             If I disappear from the site for a while I'm still having trouble.
                                                                                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8977 From: Chris B Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        Jim, we don't let anyone in the office ever ask WHY, we just fix the problem and take the Y key off their keyboard...

                                                                                                                        but you deserve better from your ISP tech support staff, so here's another answer....

                                                                                                                        check out the answer below. it's basically the same info Mike sent said in a different way.

                                                                                                                        after the answer I try in my own convoluted way to explain his answer, not necessarily helpful, but it's meant to make it easier to bear the frustration when something works sometimes and not othertimes.

                                                                                                                        Chris Brannigan

                                                                                                                        from:                                                                                                                        en.allexperts.com/q/Microsoft-Outlook-1541/2008/6/email-error-message-

                                                                                                                        Jun 9, 2008 ... error 553,

                                                                                                                        Expert: Jim Stiles - 6/9/2008

                                                                                                                        Question
                                                                                                                        Hi, I have a question along the same lines as the error message 553 question.  I have an employee who gets this error message usually after 5PM and on week ends.  He doesn't seem to have a problem during normal working hours.  Do you have any suggestions for me?

                                                                                                                        Answer
                                                                                                                        Error 553 means "Requested action not taken: mailbox name not allowed".

                                                                                                                        This error occurs when you use multiple Accounts and you try to send an email using one ISP but are connected to the internet via a different ISP.

                                                                                                                        All that needs to be done is to disconnect from the current ISP connect with the ISP that corresponds with the email address you are sending from.

                                                                                                                        ======


                                                                                                                        as I understand it...The 553 error is referring to the mailbox assigned to you by the Internet Service Provider, (btw, not internet providers server) , and it's only about sending, not receiving, emails.

                                                                                                                        1) it's about Outlook being set to connect to an ISP (provider) for years,

                                                                                                                        then when you change providers, or they change their configuration,

                                                                                                                        and you use your new computer to connect to the ISP to send out mail


                                                                                                                        2) IF the ISP isn't the one Outlook is expecting, it doesn't find the mailbox name it expects to send out from,

                                                                                                                        and it gives you a 553 error message,

                                                                                                                        saying you aren't sending from the mailbox (and ISP) it is expecting you to send from.


                                                                                                                        3) If you were able to send using the provider 's (your ISP's ) web page,

                                                                                                                        and you could send and receive emails, ok, that means all else could be fine,

                                                                                                                        4) but the fact that you connected to that provider to use his web page to send email

                                                                                                                        MIGHT also mean,

                                                                                                                        5) that when you switch back to send an email using outlook,

                                                                                                                        6) and maybe if you didn't disconnect from the ISP in between,

                                                                                                                        7) instead of maybe, reconnecting and then starting outlook without going back to the providers email web page



                                                                                                                        it may not be able to get past the name of the mailbox that you sent from when you sent email using the providers web page.

                                                                                                                        ------------------

                                                                                                                        en.allexperts.com/q/Microsoft-Outlook-1541/2008/6/email-error-message-

                                                                                                                        Jun 9, 2008 ... error 553,

                                                                                                                        Expert: Jim Stiles - 6/9/2008

                                                                                                                        Question
                                                                                                                        Hi, I have a question along the same lines as the error message 553 question.  I have an employee who gets this error message usually after 5PM and on week ends.  He doesn't seem to have a problem during normal working hours.  Do you have any suggestions for me?

                                                                                                                        Answer
                                                                                                                        Error 553 means "Requested action not taken: mailbox name not allowed".

                                                                                                                        This error occurs when you use multiple Accounts and you try to send an email using one ISP but are connected to the internet via a different ISP.

                                                                                                                        All that needs to be done is to disconnect from the current ISP connect with the ISP that corresponds with the email address you are sending from.

                                                                                                                        ======

                                                                                                                        From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:00:55 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                        Mike,
                                                                                                                           Maybe you can answer me WHY ( and I hope at that time I can receive the answer) my computer worked for weeks (so it must have been configured right) and then overnight error 553 pops up. I can send messages one time. like now, and in a couple hours try to send again and it won't because of error 553. Then that message might sit there for two more hours and then goes out and I did nothing. It's like something keeps changing and I'm doing nothing. My tech support scratching their heads. If no one hears from me for a while it's not working or I threw it against the wall.
                                                                                                                                         I hate PC's       Jim H
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:11 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        Can someone pass this on to Jim ???


                                                                                                                        Maybe he'll see the posted message..... ..

                                                                                                                        ************ **

                                                                                                                        Error 553: Email is not configured to relay mail to address

                                                                                                                        Problem � Getting the response �Mail undeliverable to recipient(s) due to relay error.� The socket error number is commonly 501, 553, or 554 in the email response. In Outlook or Outlook Express, you will probably also have the error number 0x800ccc79.

                                                                                                                        Solution � Due to an upgrade on security to our sending mail server, some internet users will have to use �SMTP authentication�. The steps below will show you where to find the setting. 

                                                                                                                        Note: This is also the case with users that are connected up through another provider using a Visionary e-mail account.



                                                                                                                        Outlook Express
                                                                                                                        1. Click Tools then Accounts
                                                                                                                        2. Click Mail
                                                                                                                        3. Click Properties
                                                                                                                        4. Click Servers
                                                                                                                        5. In the Account Name field, it should be the first part of your email address (probably it's like this already).
                                                                                                                        6. Put a checkmark by My Server Requires Authentication at the bottom of the page.
                                                                                                                        7. Click Settings
                                                                                                                        8. Select Log on Using
                                                                                                                          • Type Account Name (which will be your full email address)
                                                                                                                          • Type Password (which will be your email address password)
                                                                                                                        9. Click Apply
                                                                                                                        10. Click OK
                                                                                                                        11. Click Close

                                                                                                                        This should fix the Outlook Express to send email, close Outlook Express and re-open it to start sending mail.
                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        Microsoft Outlook

                                                                                                                        1. Click Tools then Email Accounts (Accounts and Services on older versions of Outlook)
                                                                                                                        2. Click View and Change and Click Next (skip if it opens up to the account screen)
                                                                                                                        3. Click Change or Properties of your Email Account
                                                                                                                        4. Click More Settings
                                                                                                                        5. Click Outgoing Server
                                                                                                                        6. Check My Server Uses Authentication
                                                                                                                        7. Select Log on Using
                                                                                                                          • Type Account Name (which will be your full email address)
                                                                                                                          • Type Password (which will be your email address password)
                                                                                                                        8. Click OK
                                                                                                                        9. Click Next
                                                                                                                        10. Click Finish


                                                                                                                        This should fix the Outlook to send email. Close Outlook and re-open it to start sending mail.


                                                                                                                        ************ **
                                                                                                                        Best to ya,
                                                                                                                        Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                        Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                        On Mar 11, 2009, at 7:06 AM, jimheck@losch. net wrote:

                                                                                                                        error 553


                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8978 From: Chris B Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Back to trains
                                                                                                                        my bad.  sorry, no more bits or bytes.   how bout them cast bronze diesels!  I bought 300 carriage bolts last week for the final benchwork and I think I have about 50 left.  I think I might be overdoing it!

                                                                                                                        From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:36:28 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Back to trains

                                                                                                                                   I have caused a lot of off topic information in an effort to help me with a computer problem. I thank everyone for the help but I think we should get back to HO trains.
                                                                                                                             If I disappear from the site for a while I'm still having trouble.
                                                                                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8979 From: Maynard Keith Franklin Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Problems
                                                                                                                        I just wish that all you computer keyboard klackers would go to the list of messages and open Message No. 8974, and then please tell me why you could not delete ten messages in the string before yours?

                                                                                                                        I receive the digests, and EVERY ONE seems to have this habit of repeating all the previous messages. If you are answering a specific message, you can certainly include it, but to just tack on and not delete the dragon's tail of previous messages REALLY hogs space, and is rude, to say the least.

                                                                                                                        Maynard Keith Franklin
                                                                                                                        N91472@...
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8980 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                        Chris,
                                                                                                                                     Thanks for your explanation about my outgoing express "train" problem. I'll check it out too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        From: Chris B
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:43 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        Jim, we don't let anyone in the office ever ask WHY, we just fix the problem and take the Y key off their keyboard...

                                                                                                                        but you deserve better from your ISP tech support staff, so here's another answer....

                                                                                                                        check out the answer below. it's basically the same info Mike sent said in a different way.

                                                                                                                        after the answer I try in my own convoluted way to explain his answer, not necessarily helpful, but it's meant to make it easier to bear the frustration when something works sometimes and not othertimes.

                                                                                                                        Chris Brannigan

                                                                                                                        from:                                                                                                                        en.allexperts. com/q/Microsoft- Outlook-1541/ 2008/6/email- error-message-

                                                                                                                        Jun 9, 2008 ... error 553,

                                                                                                                        Expert: Jim Stiles - 6/9/2008

                                                                                                                        Question
                                                                                                                        Hi, I have a question along the same lines as the error message 553 question.  I have an employee who gets this error message usually after 5PM and on week ends.  He doesn't seem to have a problem during normal working hours.  Do you have any suggestions for me?

                                                                                                                        Answer
                                                                                                                        Error 553 means "Requested action not taken: mailbox name not allowed".

                                                                                                                        This error occurs when you use multiple Accounts and you try to send an email using one ISP but are connected to the internet via a different ISP.

                                                                                                                        All that needs to be done is to disconnect from the current ISP connect with the ISP that corresponds with the email address you are sending from.

                                                                                                                        ======


                                                                                                                        as I understand it...The 553 error is referring to the mailbox assigned to you by the Internet Service Provider, (btw, not internet providers server) , and it's only about sending, not receiving, emails.

                                                                                                                        1) it's about Outlook being set to connect to an ISP (provider) for years,

                                                                                                                        then when you change providers, or they change their configuration,

                                                                                                                        and you use your new computer to connect to the ISP to send out mail


                                                                                                                        2) IF the ISP isn't the one Outlook is expecting, it doesn't find the mailbox name it expects to send out from,

                                                                                                                        and it gives you a 553 error message,

                                                                                                                        saying you aren't sending from the mailbox (and ISP) it is expecting you to send from.


                                                                                                                        3) If you were able to send using the provider 's (your ISP's ) web page,

                                                                                                                        and you could send and receive emails, ok, that means all else could be fine,

                                                                                                                        4) but the fact that you connected to that provider to use his web page to send email

                                                                                                                        MIGHT also mean,

                                                                                                                        5) that when you switch back to send an email using outlook,

                                                                                                                        6) and maybe if you didn't disconnect from the ISP in between,

                                                                                                                        7) instead of maybe, reconnecting and then starting outlook without going back to the providers email web page



                                                                                                                        it may not be able to get past the name of the mailbox that you sent from when you sent email using the providers web page.

                                                                                                                        ------------ ------

                                                                                                                        en.allexperts. com/q/Microsoft- Outlook-1541/ 2008/6/email-error-message-

                                                                                                                        Jun 9, 2008 ... error 553,

                                                                                                                        Expert: Jim Stiles - 6/9/2008

                                                                                                                        Question
                                                                                                                        Hi, I have a question along the same lines as the error message 553 question.  I have an employee who gets this error message usually after 5PM and on week ends.  He doesn't seem to have a problem during normal working hours.  Do you have any suggestions for me?

                                                                                                                        Answer
                                                                                                                        Error 553 means "Requested action not taken: mailbox name not allowed".

                                                                                                                        This error occurs when you use multiple Accounts and you try to send an email using one ISP but are connected to the internet via a different ISP.

                                                                                                                        All that needs to be done is to disconnect from the current ISP connect with the ISP that corresponds with the email address you are sending from.

                                                                                                                        ======

                                                                                                                        From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:00:55 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                        Mike,
                                                                                                                           Maybe you can answer me WHY ( and I hope at that time I can receive the answer) my computer worked for weeks (so it must have been configured right) and then overnight error 553 pops up. I can send messages one time. like now, and in a couple hours try to send again and it won't because of error 553. Then that message might sit there for two more hours and then goes out and I did nothing. It's like something keeps changing and I'm doing nothing. My tech support scratching their heads. If no one hears from me for a while it's not working or I threw it against the wall.
                                                                                                                                         I hate PC's       Jim H
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:11 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        Can someone pass this on to Jim ???


                                                                                                                        Maybe he'll see the posted message..... ..

                                                                                                                        ************ **

                                                                                                                        Error 553: Email is not configured to relay mail to address

                                                                                                                        Problem � Getting the response �Mail undeliverable to recipient(s) due to relay error.� The socket error number is commonly 501, 553, or 554 in the email response. In Outlook or Outlook Express, you will probably also have the error number 0x800ccc79.

                                                                                                                        Solution � Due to an upgrade on security to our sending mail server, some internet users will have to use �SMTP authentication�. The steps below will show you where to find the setting. 

                                                                                                                        Note: This is also the case with users that are connected up through another provider using a Visionary e-mail account.



                                                                                                                        Outlook Express
                                                                                                                        1. Click Tools then Accounts
                                                                                                                        2. Click Mail
                                                                                                                        3. Click Properties
                                                                                                                        4. Click Servers
                                                                                                                        5. In the Account Name field, it should be the first part of your email address (probably it's like this already).
                                                                                                                        6. Put a checkmark by My Server Requires Authentication at the bottom of the page.
                                                                                                                        7. Click Settings
                                                                                                                        8. Select Log on Using
                                                                                                                          • Type Account Name (which will be your full email address)
                                                                                                                          • Type Password (which will be your email address password)
                                                                                                                        9. Click Apply
                                                                                                                        10. Click OK
                                                                                                                        11. Click Close

                                                                                                                        This should fix the Outlook Express to send email, close Outlook Express and re-open it to start sending mail.
                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        Microsoft Outlook

                                                                                                                        1. Click Tools then Email Accounts (Accounts and Services on older versions of Outlook)
                                                                                                                        2. Click View and Change and Click Next (skip if it opens up to the account screen)
                                                                                                                        3. Click Change or Properties of your Email Account
                                                                                                                        4. Click More Settings
                                                                                                                        5. Click Outgoing Server
                                                                                                                        6. Check My Server Uses Authentication
                                                                                                                        7. Select Log on Using
                                                                                                                          • Type Account Name (which will be your full email address)
                                                                                                                          • Type Password (which will be your email address password)
                                                                                                                        8. Click OK
                                                                                                                        9. Click Next
                                                                                                                        10. Click Finish


                                                                                                                        This should fix the Outlook to send email. Close Outlook and re-open it to start sending mail.


                                                                                                                        ************ **
                                                                                                                        Best to ya,
                                                                                                                        Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                        Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                        On Mar 11, 2009, at 7:06 AM, jimheck@losch. net wrote:

                                                                                                                        error 553


                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00



                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8981 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        Boy have you got the right idea.  I have been developing software since about 1975 and have been a software department manager but didn't have a computer at home until 1999.  Everybody assumed I would have the newest and fastest.  They were amazed when I said I didn't have one - I try to have a life instead.  Well, I guess that ship has sailed.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        I'm not all that PC and Microsoft savvy, however.  The annoying part is that I (and others it seems) just never seem to come up on the learning curve.  We eventually slog through the most recent round of grief.  And when something happens next time, it's like we're at square one again.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Also, I had started designing a DCC scheme for model railroads back not too long after GE's Astrac (as I recall) was about the only game in town.  Somewhere I've got notebooks full of the designs.  But I found I was doing all the same things I did at "the office" and darn little model railroading and scrapped it.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        The same technology overload affects a lot of 3-rail people (and I do some of that, too).  The level of electronic whiz bang has become so high that it is sometimes hard to get things to work at all.  And the original MTH "Protosound" system has the annoying little problem of burning up the electronics if you try to start things up with the battery dead.  Not to mention the "programming" that is done by turning track power on and off in sequences a little like morse code.  I remember as a kid that the plain old transformers, light bulbs that actually got warm, things you could actually see and touch and manipulate and wiggle, and the proper smell of ozone were pretty heady experiences.  The sounds weren't that of real engines, but of real Lionel engines, which seemed just as real on that living room carpet. 
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Chuck K.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 6:08 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Problems

                                                                                                                        I can relate to some of the horror stories. I am a PC tech by trade, and was called into a car dealership to figure out why some machines could not access the internet, but could access their VPN (Virtual Private Network) that connected to a bank (Or something similar).

                                                                                                                        Turned out some of the machines had Norton on them, and Norton's firewall as blocking Internet Explorer from accessing the internet.

                                                                                                                        Dumb, or what?

                                                                                                                        Now, to steer this a little closer to on topic, now that I am getting a store going here, and my 70+ computers I have in inventory are out of my home, I have time for my railroad again. Been getting work done by leaps and bounds.

                                                                                                                        Truth be told, when I am home, what I enjoy most about the vintage trains, is NO MICROCHIPS! My friends do say that in my professional life, I am high tech, but in my personal life, it may as well be 1940 again.

                                                                                                                        -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                        --- On Wed, 3/11/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote:

                                                                                                                        From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net>
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 7:23 PM

                                                                                                                        My "war story" re: anti-virus--
                                                                                                                        I started with McAfee--then on downloading an update, everything crashed.
                                                                                                                        After most of an hour on the phone with "Apu"* at $3 a minute (which I
                                                                                                                        rejected paying since I kept having to ask him to repeat) I dumped them and
                                                                                                                        went to Norton. Norton worked fairly well for several years--then I had
                                                                                                                        trouble loading a program and took the main box to the local computer
                                                                                                                        mechanic. He fixed what was wrong--and found that the Norton was not
                                                                                                                        working. He installed the AVG and so far I am happy with it. One
                                                                                                                        thing--about the updates--do they come in automatically or do I have to go
                                                                                                                        look for them?

                                                                                                                        gj * Simpsons reference-- Kwik-e-Mart

                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@att. net>
                                                                                                                        To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 11:32 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Problems

                                                                                                                        The IT department where I work strongly recommends AVG and says foul things
                                                                                                                        about McAfee's (and other "big name" products) bloated size and usurping of
                                                                                                                        processor resources.

                                                                                                                        I use McAfee at home and it seems pretty powerful, but is a glutton. It
                                                                                                                        used to really get in the way checking emails coming in, but they've done
                                                                                                                        something to make it rather fast for that now. (By the way, smart geeky
                                                                                                                        people call it "McFatee".)

                                                                                                                        I have also used Spyware doctor (seems sluggish) and SuperAntiSpyware (seems
                                                                                                                        pretty good).

                                                                                                                        I'm helping a ladyfriend with the tribulations of getting her first
                                                                                                                        computer, and we will be using AVG.

                                                                                                                        Will also be deleting assorted "crapware" and "bloatware" that tends to come
                                                                                                                        preloaded on new computers. And very likely at least some of that is on
                                                                                                                        most of the computers this email will reach.

                                                                                                                        Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > I'm not smart enough to rate the merits of any program. Symantec had
                                                                                                                        > worked for years with no problem. I hope this AVG as good as people claim.
                                                                                                                        > Hopefully this episode / problem might help others if they use Symantec
                                                                                                                        > and have Email problems.
                                                                                                                        > Well enough of computers and back to HO trains.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        > From: Victor Bitleris
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 1:38 PM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Good luck. At work, we are REQUIRED to us Symantec. At home, I use AVG
                                                                                                                        > and have for years and am THRILLED with it. At work, well, you gotta do
                                                                                                                        > what they tell you. I think you can tell how I feel about Symantec.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > From: jimheck@...
                                                                                                                        > Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:08:45 -0400
                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > To all that replied with help for my computer problem THANK
                                                                                                                        > YOU. My internet provider has found out the problem. It has to do with
                                                                                                                        > SYMANTEC anti virus program. My computer was uploaded the other night with
                                                                                                                        > new information/ security alerts.This was the night before I had any
                                                                                                                        > problems. For what ever the reason the new addition shut down to tight my
                                                                                                                        > Email. I had to uninstall it, after having it for 5 years at least with no
                                                                                                                        > problem, and install a program called AVG which my internet provider
                                                                                                                        > recommended. It's a free download and they told me AVG stands for "A Very
                                                                                                                        > Good" anti virus program. It had nothing to do with my Outlook Express
                                                                                                                        > which I have used for years without a problem.
                                                                                                                        > Hopefully the Symantec program is the problem and things are good
                                                                                                                        > to go.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        > From: Chris B
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:37 PM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Jim, I'm only offering sympathy without any suggestions or solutions,
                                                                                                                        > but that can't hurt.
                                                                                                                        > I could join a vintage computer group if I wanted to I guess, I've got
                                                                                                                        > as much time in as anyone who bought systems in the early 80's & knows
                                                                                                                        > what 8" floppies and 300 baud modems are...I hung on to too many old
                                                                                                                        > computers for too many years...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > but my wife has more chops than I do, and she had Kaypros and
                                                                                                                        > Osbornes, so I listen to her advice even though I'm the office IT techie
                                                                                                                        > in my group at work...
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > so here's the sympathy part, she has a great phrase for such moments,
                                                                                                                        > whether she or someone else is doing the trouble shooting, and anyone in
                                                                                                                        > this group who has chased down a short in an all metal engine will
                                                                                                                        > recognize how it fits more situations than just computer problems....
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > it's what she calls it when you, or they, think they almost have it
                                                                                                                        > and if they just tweak this one thing and then restart it all it will
                                                                                                                        > finally all be fine,
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > When it stretches out for hours or days, and you still think just one
                                                                                                                        > more tweak with this newly added fix will do the trick..
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > she calls it "15 minutes from greatness". Do what you can to cope,
                                                                                                                        > maybe it's your layout telling you it wants more quality time!
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > This group benefits from your wisdom and it no doubt it feels your
                                                                                                                        > pain,
                                                                                                                        > best hopes for success,
                                                                                                                        > Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > From: "jimheck@... " <jimheck@... >
                                                                                                                        > To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                        > Cc: yardbirdtrains@ yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:06:18 AM
                                                                                                                        > Subject: [vintageHO] Problems
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > This will be off topic but an effort to let people know I can't
                                                                                                                        > respond
                                                                                                                        > right now. I'm still having problems with my internet service. I am
                                                                                                                        > using their
                                                                                                                        > web page to send out Emails since my normal way is still not working.
                                                                                                                        > They
                                                                                                                        > showed us how to do this but no spell check,address book, etc.
                                                                                                                        > Yesterday I
                                                                                                                        > could not send out or reply to any Emails. My wife and I spent over 3
                                                                                                                        > hours on
                                                                                                                        > the phone with the provider who seems as puzzled as we are. After all
                                                                                                                        > that
                                                                                                                        > talking and changing this and that they came up with my Symantec anti
                                                                                                                        > virus
                                                                                                                        > program, which uploaded new info the night before the trouble started.
                                                                                                                        > They
                                                                                                                        > left us last night saying they would work on a solution and get back
                                                                                                                        > to us.
                                                                                                                        > Last night for what ever reason I was able to send a few replies out
                                                                                                                        > to some
                                                                                                                        > other people, so it has to be the internet providers server(which the
                                                                                                                        > error
                                                                                                                        > message states and error 553)and not my antivirus program. I thought
                                                                                                                        > they had
                                                                                                                        > fixed the problem but found out now that I was not receiving any
                                                                                                                        > messages even
                                                                                                                        > from new messages left on the Yahoo sites. This morning I can't send
                                                                                                                        > or receive
                                                                                                                        > any Emails on my normal email page (outlook express ?).
                                                                                                                        > I am not a happy camper, to say the least. I don't know how long these
                                                                                                                        > problems will persist.
                                                                                                                        > Till then Happy Railroading Jim H
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        > Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date:
                                                                                                                        > 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        > Windows LiveT Contacts: Organize your contact list. Check it out.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        > Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date:
                                                                                                                        > 03/11/09 08:28:00
                                                                                                                        >

                                                                                                                        ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                                                                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                                                                                        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                        Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.10/1995 - Release Date: 03/11/09
                                                                                                                        08:28:00
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8982 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 3/11/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        The Yahoo emails in my in Outlook box put most everything in a single object.  There is no way to delete lines of text.  Just all or nothing.  And that leaves no context left from the previous post, which is another reply faus pax.  I notice that if I sign on the group directly and reply from there, I can edit freely.  Anybody know why this is?
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Chuck K.
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:21 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        I just wish that all you computer keyboard klackers would go to the list of messages and open Message No. 8974, and then please tell me why you could not delete ten messages in the string before yours?

                                                                                                                        I receive the digests, and EVERY ONE seems to have this habit of repeating all the previous messages. If you are answering a specific message, you can certainly include it, but to just tack on and not delete the dragon's tail of previous messages REALLY hogs space, and is rude, to say the least.

                                                                                                                        Maynard Keith Franklin
                                                                                                                        N91472@...

                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8983 From: Railroad Modeler Date: 3/12/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        The technical reason for the problem isn't clear, but Outlook/Express renders text from Yahoo emails as an image object when you
                                                                                                                        reply-to. I cannot say whether or not this phenomenon occurs in email from other sources that are sent as HTML as I do not have HTML
                                                                                                                        email in my inbox from non-Yahoo sources for testing. I expect that some other email clients may not suffer this phenomenon.

                                                                                                                        The following are results from my test of pertinent Outlook/Express settings (in OE go to Tools->Options, "Send" tab):
                                                                                                                        1) If "Reply-to Message in Format it was Sent" is checked AND mail sending format is HTML then the quoted body is rendered as image
                                                                                                                        2) If "Reply-to Message in Format it was Sent" is checked AND mail sending format is Plain Text then the quoted body is rendered as
                                                                                                                        image
                                                                                                                        3) If "Reply-to Message in Format it was Sent" is cleared AND mail sending format is HTML then the quoted body is rendered as image
                                                                                                                        2) If "Reply-to Message in Format it was Sent" is cleared AND mail sending format is Plain Text then the quoted body is rendered as
                                                                                                                        text

                                                                                                                        There are two solutions (three, if you stop using Yahoo Groups altogether)

                                                                                                                        The first option is to change Outlook/Express settings to *not* reply to a message in the format in which it was sent (clear the
                                                                                                                        box) AND set the mail sending format to Plain Text (this effectively removes any possibility of replying in HTML)

                                                                                                                        Admittedly this message is pretty plain.

                                                                                                                        The second option is to forget changing any of the options and instead delete the reply-to quote (keep the reply-to header), copy
                                                                                                                        text directly from the message in the preview pane, and paste it below the quoted header in the reply; it looks just like a real
                                                                                                                        email ;-) This is my usual strategy but I think I'll try the plain text for awhile and see if I like it.

                                                                                                                        Hope this helps (if it doesn't, my excuse is that it's late and I should have done this in the morning),

                                                                                                                        Regards,

                                                                                                                        Ken Berry


                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        From: <ckinzer@...>
                                                                                                                        To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                        Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:49 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems


                                                                                                                        The Yahoo emails in my in Outlook box put most everything in a single object. There is no way to delete lines of text. Just all or
                                                                                                                        nothing. And that leaves no context left from the previous post, which is another reply faus pax. I notice that if I sign on the
                                                                                                                        group directly and reply from there, I can edit freely. Anybody know why this is?

                                                                                                                        Chuck K.
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8984 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/12/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        Railroad Modeler wrote:
                                                                                                                        > The technical reason for the problem isn't clear, but Outlook/Express renders text from Yahoo emails as an image object when you
                                                                                                                        > reply-to. I cannot say whether or not this phenomenon occurs in email from other sources that are sent as HTML as I do not have HTML
                                                                                                                        > email in my inbox from non-Yahoo sources for testing. I expect that some other email clients may not suffer this phenomenon.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        Mozilla Thunderbird displays yahoo.com messages as text which can be
                                                                                                                        edited when replying ( for some reasons, editing messages sent from
                                                                                                                        yahoo.de is rather difficult, but it can be done too) .
                                                                                                                        So fix four would be to scrap Outlook althogether and install another
                                                                                                                        email program. There may be others which work ok too, I only have
                                                                                                                        experience with Thunderbird and I am happy with it.
                                                                                                                        You may import your messages from Outlook, so nothing will be lost.

                                                                                                                        Gerold
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8985 From: John Hagen Date: 3/12/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems

                                                                                                                        Hmmm,

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        The following may be true for Outlook Express but apparently not for Outlook. I just click on reply and I can edit away as much as I please (Witness my rearrangement of Ken Berry”s text below done by simple highlight and drag).

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        I will say that Outlook Express may do the stated nasties. Frankly, although I find Outlook to be a very good email program (or, at least, I have used it long enough to have figured it out) but do not like Outlook express at all. There are just enough differences to make it difficult for me to use it the way I like. I have tried it more than once but keep returning to Outlook.

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        John Hagen

                                                                                                                        Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines

                                                                                                                        Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Railroad Modeler
                                                                                                                        Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 03:51
                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        I cannot say whether or not this phenomenon occurs in email from other sources that are sent as HTML as I do not have HTML
                                                                                                                        email in my inbox from non-Yahoo sources for testing. I expect that some other email clients may not suffer this phenomenon.

                                                                                                                        The technical reason for the problem isn't clear, but Outlook/Express renders text from Yahoo emails as an image object when you
                                                                                                                        reply-to.
                                                                                                                        The following are results from my test of pertinent Outlook/Express settings (in OE go to Tools->Options, "Send" tab):
                                                                                                                        1) If "Reply-to Message in Format it was Sent" is checked AND mail sending format is HTML then the quoted body is rendered as image
                                                                                                                        2) If "Reply-to Message in Format it was Sent" is checked AND mail sending format is Plain Text then the quoted body is rendered as
                                                                                                                        image
                                                                                                                        3) If "Reply-to Message in Format it was Sent" is cleared AND mail sending format is HTML then the quoted body is rendered as image
                                                                                                                        2) If "Reply-to Message in Format it was Sent" is cleared AND mail sending format is Plain Text then the quoted body is rendered as
                                                                                                                        text

                                                                                                                        There are two solutions (three, if you stop using Yahoo Groups altogether)

                                                                                                                        The first option is to change Outlook/Express settings to *not* reply to a message in the format in which it was sent (clear the
                                                                                                                        box) AND set the mail sending format to Plain Text (this effectively removes any possibility of replying in HTML)

                                                                                                                        Admittedly this message is pretty plain.

                                                                                                                        The second option is to forget changing any of the options and instead delete the reply-to quote (keep the reply-to header), copy
                                                                                                                        text directly from the message in the preview pane, and paste it below the quoted header in the reply; it looks just like a real
                                                                                                                        email ;-) This is my usual strategy but I think I'll try the plain text for awhile and see if I like it.

                                                                                                                        Hope this helps (if it doesn't, my excuse is that it's late and I should have done this in the morning),

                                                                                                                        Regards,

                                                                                                                        Ken Berry

                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        From: <ckinzer@att. net>
                                                                                                                        To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                        Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:49 AM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        The Yahoo emails in my in Outlook box put most everything in a single object. There is no way to delete lines of text. Just all or
                                                                                                                        nothing. And that leaves no context left from the previous post, which is another reply faus pax. I notice that if I sign on the
                                                                                                                        group directly and reply from there, I can edit freely. Anybody know why this is?

                                                                                                                        Chuck K.
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8986 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/12/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        in the mid-to-late 90's, I was doing all of my email with Netscape,
                                                                                                                        now better known as Mozilla. I don't remember having any serious
                                                                                                                        problems with the program, or working emails through it.

                                                                                                                        I would have no regrets using Mozilla if I was still using Windows on-
                                                                                                                        line. I also used Netscape/Mozilla for my main browser and email
                                                                                                                        program for many more years with Macs before I moved to Mac/OS-X. I
                                                                                                                        accidentally found that my old email saves were still usable when I
                                                                                                                        did a topic search in my newest computer a couple of years ago, and
                                                                                                                        it brought up my old relevant emails from Netscape, on a computer
                                                                                                                        that didn't have the program installed, nor that old OS installed,
                                                                                                                        but had the duplicate files from several years ago on the hard drive.
                                                                                                                        Thus my 1996 netscape/Mozilla email files are still usable
                                                                                                                        today........ Four computers and 13 years later.

                                                                                                                        Best to ya'
                                                                                                                        Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                        Milwaukee Wi, USA


                                                                                                                        On Mar 12, 2009, at 4:29 AM, Gerold Eckl wrote:

                                                                                                                        > Railroad Modeler wrote:
                                                                                                                        >> The technical reason for the problem isn't clear, but Outlook/
                                                                                                                        >> Express renders text from Yahoo emails as an image object when you
                                                                                                                        >> reply-to. I cannot say whether or not this phenomenon occurs in
                                                                                                                        >> email from other sources that are sent as HTML as I do not have HTML
                                                                                                                        >> email in my inbox from non-Yahoo sources for testing. I expect
                                                                                                                        >> that some other email clients may not suffer this phenomenon.
                                                                                                                        >>
                                                                                                                        > Mozilla Thunderbird displays yahoo.com messages as text which can be
                                                                                                                        > edited when replying ( for some reasons, editing messages sent from
                                                                                                                        > yahoo.de is rather difficult, but it can be done too) .
                                                                                                                        > So fix four would be to scrap Outlook althogether and install another
                                                                                                                        > email program. There may be others which work ok too, I only have
                                                                                                                        > experience with Thunderbird and I am happy with it.
                                                                                                                        > You may import your messages from Outlook, so nothing will be lost.
                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                        > Gerold
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8987 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/12/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Problems
                                                                                                                        As I know it, Windows is a dynamic OS that allows installs to change anything that previous program installs of any kind had for their settings.

                                                                                                                        The real kick in the tail is when you install a program and it declares to the system that only the older version of a particular DLL it installs is now valid......... and it's not the newer DLL that your other programs -had- been using and now are  -not- using, and thus  are 'broken' programs.

                                                                                                                        I don't know if they ever fixed it so that that isn't still happening. It used to be  a frequent problem, and one reason they had users re-installing Windows and  then reloading their systems  on a regular basis.

                                                                                                                        Best to ya'
                                                                                                                        Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                        Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                        On Mar 11, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Jim Heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                        Mike,
                                                                                                                           Maybe you can answer me WHY ( and I hope at that time I can receive the answer) my computer worked for weeks (so it must have been configured right) and then overnight error 553 pops up. I can send messages one time. like now, and in a couple hours try to send again and it won't because of error 553. Then that message might sit there for two more hours and then goes out and I did nothing. It's like something keeps changing and I'm doing nothing. My tech support scratching their heads. If no one hears from me for a while it's not working or I threw it against the wall.
                                                                                                                                         I hate PC's       Jim H
                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:11 PM
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Problems

                                                                                                                        Can someone pass this on to Jim ???


                                                                                                                        Maybe he'll see the posted message..... ..

                                                                                                                        ************ **

                                                                                                                        Error 553: Email is not configured to relay mail to address
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8988 From: Karl Peters Date: 3/12/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Back to trains
                                                                                                                        Dear Jim H.:
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        You do indeed have a problem. You need to find a use for those 50 carraige bolts. {More Benchwork!}
                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Karl Peters
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8989 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 3/12/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: FS: Diecast Freight Cars
                                                                                                                        List,

                                                                                                                        I have several vintage HO diecast freight cars available for
                                                                                                                        purchase. Both are built. The first one is a Laddle Car. Unsure of the
                                                                                                                        maker. The laddle is stationary. I believe it has wood for part of the
                                                                                                                        frame but is layered with diecast plates:

                                                                                                                        http://prrmodels.com/mar12a.JPG

                                                                                                                        The other car is a very unique operating side dump car made by Model
                                                                                                                        Engineering Works (MEW). It too has been assembled and is factory
                                                                                                                        lettered for the Pennsylvania Railroad. Operation is smooth and centers
                                                                                                                        itself after dumping. When tipped (manually) the sides lift allowing a
                                                                                                                        load to dump. Great engineering from the 1960's.

                                                                                                                        http://prrmodels.com/mar12b.JPG

                                                                                                                        http://prrmodels.com/mar12c.JPG

                                                                                                                        $65.00 for the pair plus $5.00 shipping. MO's OK. Paypal OK too
                                                                                                                        but add another $3.00. Drop me an email if interested. ......Thanks,
                                                                                                                        Gary



                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 8990 From: Jim Heckard Date: 3/12/2009
                                                                                                                        Subject: Fw: Layout
                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                          Hi All,
                                                                                                                                  First let me apologize for sending this message to everyone at the same time. Due to my ongoing computer problems I am unsure if this will be sent. You never know when it will be held up as an error for delivery.
                                                                                                                                 The pictures are about the progression of the layout. I have the new switch track in and working nicely compared to the one I had. The first picture is my HUGE control panel. I have 4 remote switches / buttons and my transformer. Switches right in the front, which will be industry and a rail yard, have the little plastic switch throws. Since they are right there I can easily hand throw the switches .
                                                                                                                                 The other 5 pictures show , from different angles, the rest of the platform especially were I am building my mountains. The grades are finished and the opening ready for the trestle. You can see some of the mountains are raised already and others are about to be. I have an odd way of forming mountains that won't be to high. I use material that is stapled in place and stuffed  with material scraps that are pushed in to the desired shape and size. I then come back with a water soluble cardboard box glue and coat them. When it dries you have a hard shell type cover that is strong enough if you don't fall on it. I now will come back with a dark brown paint as a base color. I then will create my hand carved and stained rocky outcrops, rock faces, rock cuts, etc. The faces of the ends where the trestle will go will have "piers" laid in and rock detail added.
                                                                                                                               I will probably stop here for a while but ballasting the track will be next. I will buy commercial ballast this time. Unlike the last layout where I took a dried up bag of cement and crushed and sifted it to size. I am at a point where I can test run repaired trains in the inner circle but can also run the mainline to sit back and watch. I am just running an early AHM/Rivarossi Mikado with a bunch of Marx HO cars till I get further along. I will run my true vintage items, pre war and post war, then. I have test run some Varney post war with the V-2 motor and had no trouble but had no edges at that time and I don't  want to see one try to fly 
                                                                                                                                                                              Enjoy       Jim
                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8991 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/12/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
                                                                                                                          You're farther along than I am--gj
                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:31 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: Layout

                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                          Hi All,
                                                                                                                                  First let me apologize for sending this message to everyone at the same time. Due to my ongoing computer problems I am unsure if this will be sent. You never know when it will be held up as an error for delivery.
                                                                                                                                 The pictures are about the progression of the layout. I have the new switch track in and working nicely compared to the one I had. The first picture is my HUGE control panel. I have 4 remote switches / buttons and my transformer. Switches right in the front, which will be industry and a rail yard, have the little plastic switch throws. Since they are right there I can easily hand throw the switches .
                                                                                                                                 The other 5 pictures show , from different angles, the rest of the platform especially were I am building my mountains. The grades are finished and the opening ready for the trestle. You can see some of the mountains are raised already and others are about to be. I have an odd way of forming mountains that won't be to high. I use material that is stapled in place and stuffed  with material scraps that are pushed in to the desired shape and size. I then come back with a water soluble cardboard box glue and coat them. When it dries you have a hard shell type cover that is strong enough if you don't fall on it. I now will come back with a dark brown paint as a base color. I then will create my hand carved and stained rocky outcrops, rock faces, rock cuts, etc. The faces of the ends where the trestle will go will have "piers" laid in and rock detail added.
                                                                                                                               I will probably stop here for a while but ballasting the track will be next. I will buy commercial ballast this time. Unlike the last layout where I took a dried up bag of cement and crushed and sifted it to size. I am at a point where I can test run repaired trains in the inner circle but can also run the mainline to sit back and watch. I am just running an early AHM/Rivarossi Mikado with a bunch of Marx HO cars till I get further along. I will run my true vintage items, pre war and post war, then. I have test run some Varney post war with the V-2 motor and had no trouble but had no edges at that time and I don't  want to see one try to fly 
                                                                                                                                                                              Enjoy       Jim
                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                          Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.11/1997 - Release Date: 03/12/09 10:38:00
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8992 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 3/12/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Sold: Diecast Freight Cars
                                                                                                                          List,

                                                                                                                          Side Dump and Ladle cars are spoken for. Thanks....Gary





                                                                                                                          Come visit my PRR Pages:

                                                                                                                          http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/PRR-pages.html
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8993 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/13/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
                                                                                                                          Jim
                                                                                                                          You are getting a very good start from what I can see.
                                                                                                                          Charlie W.

                                                                                                                           

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                                                                                                                          Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8994 From: jim heckard Date: 3/13/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
                                                                                                                            Charlie,
                                                                                                                                 I have made good progress but will be backing off for a while. Have a number of new trains for my vintage collection and some unfinished projects too. Have to get back to them.
                                                                                                                                 I'm happy with the way the layout is coming and lucky to have a special room and space. One thing I don't like. With my vintage collection on 3 of the walls (and my workbench on the other) the layout is in the middle. It limits putting any "backdrop" since it would get  to high. While you can't have everything I do wish some of the platform / layout was against some walls to do something. Just stuck out in the middle of the room you see walls of trains when you view the layout from anywhere.
                                                                                                                                  Still happy with it.                                                      Jim
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 2:46 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: Layout

                                                                                                                          Jim
                                                                                                                          You are getting a very good start from what I can see.
                                                                                                                          Charlie W.

                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                          --
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                                                                                                                          Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
                                                                                                                          Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8995 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 3/13/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: ID help
                                                                                                                          I need help identifing a car. It's a 16 wheel flatcar, Erie #8086. It has no markings on it at all, not even a "Made in..". I posted a photo in the photos (where else?) in a folder called "Steve's Stuff" (what else?). Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Steve
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8996 From: Riverboy Date: 3/13/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: ID help
                                                                                                                          Hi Steve ,
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          If you look at the bottom and it has an easy to see metal weight , and screw on trucks , and metal clip on coupler covers ( or small plastic screw on ) it is almost surely Athearn . A photo of the bottom would help verify a maker .
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Tod

                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                          --- On Fri, 3/13/09, My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                          From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] ID help
                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                          Date: Friday, March 13, 2009, 3:58 PM

                                                                                                                          I need help identifing a car. It's a 16 wheel flatcar, Erie #8086. It has no markings on it at all, not even a "Made in..". I posted a photo in the photos (where else?) in a folder called "Steve's Stuff" (what else?). Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Steve
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8997 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/13/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
                                                                                                                          jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                          > Charlie,
                                                                                                                          > I have made good progress but will be backing off for a while.
                                                                                                                          > Have a number of new trains for my vintage collection and some
                                                                                                                          > unfinished projects too. Have to get back to them.
                                                                                                                          > I'm happy with the way the layout is coming and lucky to have a
                                                                                                                          > special room and space. One thing I don't like. With my vintage
                                                                                                                          > collection on 3 of the walls (and my workbench on the other) the
                                                                                                                          > layout is in the middle. It limits putting any "backdrop" since it
                                                                                                                          > would get to high. While you can't have everything I do wish some of
                                                                                                                          > the platform / layout was against some walls to do something. Just
                                                                                                                          > stuck out in the middle of the room you see walls of trains when you
                                                                                                                          > view the layout from anywhere.
                                                                                                                          > Still happy with
                                                                                                                          > it. Jim
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          Jim,
                                                                                                                          I have the layout around the wall - with a second level planned above it
                                                                                                                          - in the ex living room on the first floor, and all my trains stored in
                                                                                                                          display cabinets around the wall of the current living room on the
                                                                                                                          second floor.... this means I have to carry equipment up and down the
                                                                                                                          spiral staircase quite often... would be very glad to have both layout
                                                                                                                          and cabinets in one room or at least at one level... Optimum would be a
                                                                                                                          around the wall layout in areal BIG room, and the cabinets in the middle.

                                                                                                                          Well, in the next life....

                                                                                                                          Gerold
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8998 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/13/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
                                                                                                                          Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          You could use a limited backdrop down the middle of the layout to devide it...........:o)
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Gary W
                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                          From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 3:24:25 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: Layout

                                                                                                                            Charlie,
                                                                                                                                 I have made good progress but will be backing off for a while. Have a number of new trains for my vintage collection and some unfinished projects too. Have to get back to them.
                                                                                                                                 I'm happy with the way the layout is coming and lucky to have a special room and space. One thing I don't like. With my vintage collection on 3 of the walls (and my workbench on the other) the layout is in the middle. It limits putting any "backdrop" since it would get  to high. While you can't have everything I do wish some of the platform / layout was against some walls to do something. Just stuck out in the middle of the room you see walls of trains when you view the layout from anywhere.
                                                                                                                                  Still happy with it.                                                      Jim
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 2:46 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: Layout

                                                                                                                          Jim
                                                                                                                          You are getting a very good start from what I can see.
                                                                                                                          Charlie W.

                                                                                                                           

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                                                                                                                          Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
                                                                                                                          Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 8999 From: Chris B Date: 3/13/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
                                                                                                                          or....you could hang a flat fabric curtain (e.g., light blue with clouds print) on some curtain hardware along the top shelf along one wall, so that at least from the other side you have a view of the layout with something kinda like sky behind it, instead of shelves of trains spoiling the illusion.
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          And just  pull back the curtains with a drapery cord when you want to display or get at the engines on that shelf.
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          heck, do it on all the shelves, keep off dust and have a 360 degree horizon of whatever you want, even put photo backdrops on a few big sheets of foam core and hang them on one side to get a change from the blue sky..
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          <g>
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Why oh why is it so much easier to tell another modeler what they should do to solve their problem than to get off the keyboard, go down in the basement, and put your time in on your own project???
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          okay, I'm still at the office, so that's my excuse!

                                                                                                                          From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 4:55:24 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: Layout

                                                                                                                          Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          You could use a limited backdrop down the middle of the layout to devide it.......... .:o)
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Gary W
                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                          From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 3:24:25 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: Layout

                                                                                                                            Charlie,
                                                                                                                                 I have made good progress but will be backing off for a while. Have a number of new trains for my vintage collection and some unfinished projects too. Have to get back to them.
                                                                                                                                 I'm happy with the way the layout is coming and lucky to have a special room and space. One thing I don't like. With my vintage collection on 3 of the walls (and my workbench on the other) the layout is in the middle. It limits putting any "backdrop" since it would get  to high. While you can't have everything I do wish some of the platform / layout was against some walls to do something. Just stuck out in the middle of the room you see walls of trains when you view the layout from anywhere.
                                                                                                                                  Still happy with it.                                                      Jim
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 2:46 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: Layout

                                                                                                                          Jim
                                                                                                                          You are getting a very good start from what I can see.
                                                                                                                          Charlie W.

                                                                                                                           

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                                                                                                                          Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
                                                                                                                          Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9000 From: Mike Sloane Date: 3/13/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: ID help
                                                                                                                          I have two of those - one is an old Athearn, and the other was an Asian
                                                                                                                          knock-off that is pretty much identical. The weights were made so that
                                                                                                                          they could fit in between the framing sections - if I recall there were
                                                                                                                          4 of them. They were/are also a real devil to set on the tracks and also
                                                                                                                          derailed easily, so I don't bother to run mine in trains.

                                                                                                                          Mike

                                                                                                                          My-Yahoo-Groups wrote:
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > I need help identifing a car. It's a 16 wheel flatcar, Erie #8086. It
                                                                                                                          > has no markings on it at all, not even a "Made in..". I posted a photo
                                                                                                                          > in the photos (where else?) in a folder called "Steve's Stuff" (what
                                                                                                                          > else?). Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > Steve
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9001 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 3/13/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: ID help
                                                                                                                          Ok, uploaded four shots of the underside. It doesn't look like any Athearn I've ever seen.
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Steve
                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          From: Riverboy
                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 4:05 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID help

                                                                                                                          Hi Steve ,
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          If you look at the bottom and it has an easy to see metal weight , and screw on trucks , and metal clip on coupler covers ( or small plastic screw on ) it is almost surely Athearn . A photo of the bottom would help verify a maker .
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Tod

                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                          --- On Fri, 3/13/09, My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                          From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] ID help
                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                          Date: Friday, March 13, 2009, 3:58 PM

                                                                                                                          I need help identifing a car. It's a 16 wheel flatcar, Erie #8086. It has no markings on it at all, not even a "Made in..". I posted a photo in the photos (where else?) in a folder called "Steve's Stuff" (what else?). Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Steve
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9002 From: Riverboy Date: 3/13/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: ID help
                                                                                                                          Hi Steve ,
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          I've had a few of these over the years , and although it doesn't have the typical Athearn look , I'm 99% sure that it is Athearn . It features the screw on trucks and plastic coupler covers I am familiar with . And as Mike mentioned , it is a chance it's the Asian knock off , but my vote still falls for Athearn .

                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                          --- On Fri, 3/13/09, My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                          From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID help
                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                          Date: Friday, March 13, 2009, 5:29 PM

                                                                                                                          Ok, uploaded four shots of the underside. It doesn't look like any Athearn I've ever seen.
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Steve
                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          From: Riverboy
                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 4:05 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID help

                                                                                                                          Hi Steve ,
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          If you look at the bottom and it has an easy to see metal weight , and screw on trucks , and metal clip on coupler covers ( or small plastic screw on ) it is almost surely Athearn . A photo of the bottom would help verify a maker .
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Tod

                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                          --- On Fri, 3/13/09, My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@ prrh.org> wrote:
                                                                                                                          From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@ prrh.org>
                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] ID help
                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                          Date: Friday, March 13, 2009, 3:58 PM

                                                                                                                          I need help identifing a car. It's a 16 wheel flatcar, Erie #8086. It has no markings on it at all, not even a "Made in..". I posted a photo in the photos (where else?) in a folder called "Steve's Stuff" (what else?). Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Steve
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9003 From: Mike Sloane Date: 3/13/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: ID help
                                                                                                                          Yup, definitely the same as my Athearn and the Athearn "look-alike".
                                                                                                                          There should be two vertical brake staffs at either end, going through
                                                                                                                          little tabs that break off easily. If you want to restore the car, I can
                                                                                                                          get you a close up of those tabs - I had to make them out of little
                                                                                                                          pieces of plastic and glue them on.

                                                                                                                          Mike

                                                                                                                          My-Yahoo-Groups wrote:
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > Ok, uploaded four shots of the underside. It doesn't look like any
                                                                                                                          > Athearn I've ever seen.
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > Steve
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9004 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 3/13/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: ID help
                                                                                                                          Mike,
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          It actually still has the four little tabs. I'm guessing that the brakes staffs would be thin wire with brake wheels on top.
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          How can I tell if it's the Athearn or look-alike?
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Steve
                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 5:52 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID help

                                                                                                                          Yup, definitely the same as my Athearn and the Athearn "look-alike".
                                                                                                                          There should be two vertical brake staffs at either end, going through
                                                                                                                          little tabs that break off easily. If you want to restore the car, I can
                                                                                                                          get you a close up of those tabs - I had to make them out of little
                                                                                                                          pieces of plastic and glue them on.

                                                                                                                          Mike

                                                                                                                          My-Yahoo-Groups wrote:
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > Ok, uploaded four shots of the underside. It doesn't look like any
                                                                                                                          > Athearn I've ever seen.
                                                                                                                          > 
                                                                                                                          > Steve


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                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9005 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 3/13/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: ID help
                                                                                                                          Tod,
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          I would never have guessed Athearn. I was looking for that Athearn metal coupler clip. I wonder why Athearn and Roundhouse never had their names stamped somewhere on the bottom?
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Steve
                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          From: Riverboy
                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 5:38 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID help

                                                                                                                          Hi Steve ,
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          I've had a few of these over the years , and although it doesn't have the typical Athearn look , I'm 99% sure that it is Athearn . It features the screw on trucks and plastic coupler covers I am familiar with . And as Mike mentioned , it is a chance it's the Asian knock off , but my vote still falls for Athearn .

                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                          --- On Fri, 3/13/09, My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                          From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID help
                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                          Date: Friday, March 13, 2009, 5:29 PM

                                                                                                                          Ok, uploaded four shots of the underside. It doesn't look like any Athearn I've ever seen.
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Steve
                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          From: Riverboy
                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 4:05 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID help

                                                                                                                          Hi Steve ,
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          If you look at the bottom and it has an easy to see metal weight , and screw on trucks , and metal clip on coupler covers ( or small plastic screw on ) it is almost surely Athearn . A photo of the bottom would help verify a maker .
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Tod

                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                          --- On Fri, 3/13/09, My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@ prrh.org> wrote:
                                                                                                                          From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@ prrh.org>
                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] ID help
                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                          Date: Friday, March 13, 2009, 3:58 PM

                                                                                                                          I need help identifing a car. It's a 16 wheel flatcar, Erie #8086. It has no markings on it at all, not even a "Made in..". I posted a photo in the photos (where else?) in a folder called "Steve's Stuff" (what else?). Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Steve
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9006 From: Riverboy Date: 3/13/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: ID help
                                                                                                                          Hi Steve ,
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          I could never figure that out myself .
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          As for Athearn , in the early plastic years , most of their freight cars used the platic lid , and then over the years switched to the more familiar metal clip .
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Roundhouse / MDC is usually identified by a cast metal underfram for most of their kits , also with no makers mark .
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Back to the flat car , I think the Asian  knock off DID have a marking underneath of HOTCO ( HO Train Company ) , but it has been so many years since I've seen one ,I could be wrong .
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Glad to be of help .
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Tod

                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                          --- On Fri, 3/13/09, My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                          From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID help
                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                          Date: Friday, March 13, 2009, 6:52 PM

                                                                                                                          Tod,
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          I would never have guessed Athearn. I was looking for that Athearn metal coupler clip. I wonder why Athearn and Roundhouse never had their names stamped somewhere on the bottom?
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Steve
                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          From: Riverboy
                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 5:38 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID help

                                                                                                                          Hi Steve ,
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          I've had a few of these over the years , and although it doesn't have the typical Athearn look , I'm 99% sure that it is Athearn . It features the screw on trucks and plastic coupler covers I am familiar with . And as Mike mentioned , it is a chance it's the Asian knock off , but my vote still falls for Athearn .

                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                          --- On Fri, 3/13/09, My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@ prrh.org> wrote:
                                                                                                                          From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@ prrh.org>
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID help
                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                          Date: Friday, March 13, 2009, 5:29 PM

                                                                                                                          Ok, uploaded four shots of the underside. It doesn't look like any Athearn I've ever seen.
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Steve
                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          From: Riverboy
                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 4:05 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID help

                                                                                                                          Hi Steve ,
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          If you look at the bottom and it has an easy to see metal weight , and screw on trucks , and metal clip on coupler covers ( or small plastic screw on ) it is almost surely Athearn . A photo of the bottom would help verify a maker .
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Tod

                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                          --- On Fri, 3/13/09, My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@ prrh.org> wrote:
                                                                                                                          From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@ prrh.org>
                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] ID help
                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                          Date: Friday, March 13, 2009, 3:58 PM

                                                                                                                          I need help identifing a car. It's a 16 wheel flatcar, Erie #8086. It has no markings on it at all, not even a "Made in..". I posted a photo in the photos (where else?) in a folder called "Steve's Stuff" (what else?). Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Steve
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9007 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/13/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: 8-axle flat (was ID help)
                                                                                                                          In a message dated 3/13/2009 5:24:12 PM EDT< Mike wrote:
                                                                                                                          The weights were made so that they could fit in between the framing sections - if I recall there were 4 of them.
                                                                                                                          There were eight pieces of metal for weight - and i've lost one of mine.  :-(
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Rallph
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9008 From: Riverboy Date: 3/13/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: 8-axle flat (was ID help)
                                                                                                                          Hi Rallph ,
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          I'd suggest using some moldable weight so you can shape it as you need it . Just a thought .
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Tod

                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                          --- On Fri, 3/13/09, Alpvalsys@... <Alpvalsys@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                          From: Alpvalsys@... <Alpvalsys@...>
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 8-axle flat (was ID help)
                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                          Date: Friday, March 13, 2009, 8:04 PM

                                                                                                                          In a message dated 3/13/2009 5:24:12 PM EDT< Mike wrote:
                                                                                                                          The weights were made so that they could fit in between the framing sections - if I recall there were 4 of them.
                                                                                                                          There were eight pieces of metal for weight - and i've lost one of mine.  :-(
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Rallph
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9009 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/13/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: ID help
                                                                                                                          In a message dated 3/13/2009 7:09:29 PM EDT, Todd wrote:
                                                                                                                          Roundhouse / MDC is usually identified by a cast metal underfram for most of their kits , also with no makers mark .
                                                                                                                          Early MDC/Roundhouse had metal floor/underframe cast in one piece; newer ones had separate sheet metal weights - boxcars had theirs held in with a pair of plastic slip-fit washers, gondola weights are trapped between the bottom of the floor and the top of the underframe.
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          And yes, I know this a "vintage HO" list, but right now most of my model railroading is with a modular group so I can run anything from the '40s to the present.
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Ralph
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9010 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/13/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: ID help
                                                                                                                          On the other hand, if it is die cast, with printed paper inserts for the sides, it is MDC. gj
                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          From: Riverboy
                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 1:05 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID help

                                                                                                                          Hi Steve ,
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          If you look at the bottom and it has an easy to see metal weight , and screw on trucks , and metal clip on coupler covers ( or small plastic screw on ) it is almost surely Athearn . A photo of the bottom would help verify a maker .
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Tod

                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                          --- On Fri, 3/13/09, My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                          From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] ID help
                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                          Date: Friday, March 13, 2009, 3:58 PM

                                                                                                                          I need help identifing a car. It's a 16 wheel flatcar, Erie #8086. It has no markings on it at all, not even a "Made in..". I posted a photo in the photos (where else?) in a folder called "Steve's Stuff" (what else?). Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Steve


                                                                                                                          No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                          Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.13/1999 - Release Date: 03/13/09 05:59:00
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9012 From: STOCKCREEK@aol.com Date: 3/14/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Check out my photos on Facebook
                                                                                                                          SORRY I MESSED UP

                                                                                                                          BOB BLACKWELDER
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9013 From: Mike Sloane Date: 3/14/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: 8-axle flat (was ID help)
                                                                                                                          Yup - I remember now - 4 thick ones and 4 thin ones. It used to be that
                                                                                                                          you could order that kind of part from Athearn to get a little more
                                                                                                                          weight on the car. I ordered the thin brass sheaves for the my "150 ton"
                                                                                                                          kitbash of the 200 ton crane, since the later versions only came with
                                                                                                                          the single wide sheaves. I wanted the look of the triple sheaves and
                                                                                                                          multiple strands of wire rope on the boom and hook.
                                                                                                                          <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_17.html>

                                                                                                                          Mike

                                                                                                                          Alpvalsys@... wrote:
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > In a message dated 3/13/2009 5:24:12 PM EDT< Mike wrote:
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > The weights were made so that they could fit in between the framing
                                                                                                                          > sections - if I recall there were 4 of them.
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > There were eight pieces of metal for weight - and i've lost one of
                                                                                                                          > mine. :-(
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > Rallph
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9014 From: Mike Sloane Date: 3/14/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: ID help
                                                                                                                          One of the obvious differences between the original Athearn and the
                                                                                                                          HOTCO copy is the "pizza cutter" wheels on the HOTCO trucks. But I would
                                                                                                                          imagine that, by now, the wheelsets would have been replaced, as there
                                                                                                                          is little hope of being able to actually run the car through any
                                                                                                                          switches with the original wheels.

                                                                                                                          Mike

                                                                                                                          Riverboy wrote:
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > Hi Steve ,
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > I could never figure that out myself .
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > As for Athearn , in the early plastic years , most of their freight cars
                                                                                                                          > used the platic lid , and then over the years switched to the more
                                                                                                                          > familiar metal clip .
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > Roundhouse / MDC is usually identified by a cast metal underfram for
                                                                                                                          > most of their kits , also with no makers mark .
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > Back to the flat car , I think the Asian knock off DID have a marking
                                                                                                                          > underneath of HOTCO ( HO Train Company ) , but it has been so many years
                                                                                                                          > since I've seen one ,I could be wrong .
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > Glad to be of help .
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > Tod
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9015 From: Riverboy Date: 3/14/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: ID help
                                                                                                                          True , I forgot about the wheels being one of the spotting features on the HOTCO version . That was back in the day when they thought the deeper the flange , the better the tracking . Most of us replaced the wheels long ago with better ones .
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Tod

                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                          --- On Sat, 3/14/09, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                          From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID help
                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                          Date: Saturday, March 14, 2009, 9:47 AM

                                                                                                                          One of the obvious differences between the original Athearn and the
                                                                                                                          HOTCO copy is the "pizza cutter" wheels on the HOTCO trucks. But I would
                                                                                                                          imagine that, by now, the wheelsets would have been replaced, as there
                                                                                                                          is little hope of being able to actually run the car through any
                                                                                                                          switches with the original wheels.

                                                                                                                          Mike

                                                                                                                          Riverboy wrote:
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > Hi Steve ,
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > I could never figure that out myself .
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > As for Athearn , in the early plastic years , most of their freight cars
                                                                                                                          > used the platic lid , and then over the years switched to the more
                                                                                                                          > familiar metal clip .
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > Roundhouse / MDC is usually identified by a cast metal underfram for
                                                                                                                          > most of their kits , also with no makers mark .
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > Back to the flat car , I think the Asian knock off DID have a marking
                                                                                                                          > underneath of HOTCO ( HO Train Company ) , but it has been so many years
                                                                                                                          > since I've seen one ,I could be wrong .
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > Glad to be of help .
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > Tod
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9016 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/14/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
                                                                                                                          Jim
                                                                                                                          I can see what you mean by no back drop, but just think what could be better than a back drop of your vintage stock?  Am I Right Or Am I Right.
                                                                                                                          Great just to  look at anyway.
                                                                                                                          Charlie W.

                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          From: "jim heckard"
                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: Layout
                                                                                                                          Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 15:24:25 -0400

                                                                                                                            Charlie,
                                                                                                                                 I have made good progress but will be backing off for a while. Have a number of new trains for my vintage collection and some unfinished projects too. Have to get back to them.
                                                                                                                                 I'm happy with the way the layout is coming and lucky to have a special room and space. One thing I don't like. With my vintage collection on 3 of the walls (and my workbench on the other) the layout is in the middle. It limits putting any "backdrop" since it would get  to high. While you can't have everything I do wish some of the platform / layout was against some walls to do something. Just stuck out in the middle of the room you see walls of trains when you view the layout from anywhere.
                                                                                                                                  Still happy with it.                                                      Jim
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 2:46 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: Layout

                                                                                                                          Jim
                                                                                                                          You are getting a very good start from what I can see.
                                                                                                                          Charlie W.

                                                                                                                           

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                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9017 From: asleepy60 Date: 3/14/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Anybody Know What Vintage?
                                                                                                                          Hi - I have purchased a Varney passenger coach. It is made of wood with paper sides and metal trucks. The box says: "Coach PA-40 Passenger".
                                                                                                                          Does anyone have any idea as to how old this kit might be? Thanks for any information.
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9018 From: curmudgeon Date: 3/14/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Anybody Know What Vintage?
                                                                                                                          I have two, built, no box, sure would like to know vintage....
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > Hi - I have purchased a Varney passenger coach. It is made of wood with paper sides and metal trucks. The box says: "Coach PA-40 Passenger".
                                                                                                                          > Does anyone have any idea as to how old this kit might be? Thanks for any information.
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9019 From: Riverboy Date: 3/14/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Anybody Know What Vintage?
                                                                                                                          Hello,
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          I checked out the HO Seeker site , and the first reference I found for PA-40 was in the 1947 catalog . I did see PA-10 and PA-20 numbers listed in the 1938 and 1941 catalogs , but not the PA-40 , so that narrows it down some .
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Hope this information helps .
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Tod

                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                          --- On Sat, 3/14/09, curmudgeon <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                          From: curmudgeon <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Anybody Know What Vintage?
                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                          Date: Saturday, March 14, 2009, 4:03 PM

                                                                                                                          I have two, built, no box, sure would like to know vintage....
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > Hi - I have purchased a Varney passenger coach. It is made of wood with paper sides and metal trucks. The box says: "Coach PA-40 Passenger".
                                                                                                                          > Does anyone have any idea as to how old this kit might be? Thanks for any information.
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9020 From: jim heckard Date: 3/14/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
                                                                                                                              Charlie W  
                                                                                                                          You are RIGHT. Don't get me wrong. I'm lucky to have the room, the vintage collection and now a new layout. I guess I'm never satisfied. I remember in 1958 when I got my first HO , a Revel set, I was hooked but to poor to do much about it. Any little thing I was able to add, a new freight car, a remote switch track,  was enjoyable. Now I look around and say not to shabby. And I fully enjoy "puttering" around anything dong with HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 3:41 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: Layout

                                                                                                                          Jim
                                                                                                                          I can see what you mean by no back drop, but just think what could be better than a back drop of your vintage stock?  Am I Right Or Am I Right.
                                                                                                                          Great just to  look at anyway.
                                                                                                                          Charlie W.

                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          From: "jim heckard"
                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: Layout
                                                                                                                          Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 15:24:25 -0400

                                                                                                                            Charlie,
                                                                                                                                 I have made good progress but will be backing off for a while. Have a number of new trains for my vintage collection and some unfinished projects too. Have to get back to them.
                                                                                                                                 I'm happy with the way the layout is coming and lucky to have a special room and space. One thing I don't like. With my vintage collection on 3 of the walls (and my workbench on the other) the layout is in the middle. It limits putting any "backdrop" since it would get  to high. While you can't have everything I do wish some of the platform / layout was against some walls to do something. Just stuck out in the middle of the room you see walls of trains when you view the layout from anywhere.
                                                                                                                                  Still happy with it.                                                      Jim
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 2:46 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: Layout

                                                                                                                          Jim
                                                                                                                          You are getting a very good start from what I can see.
                                                                                                                          Charlie W.

                                                                                                                           

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                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9021 From: jim heckard Date: 3/14/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Anybody Know What Vintage?
                                                                                                                                      I have to go digging to get precise date but around 1940-1942. It was around the start of WW II. C'mon Ray W. I know you have the exact date at your fingertips.
                                                                                                                               Before I sent this I went down my basement and pulled out my Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains" by Dave Spanagel to be exact. It shows a PA-40 made in 1941-1942. This is listed as a "Commuter Car.  After the war Varney started to make this car again from 1946-1950, same material, same construction. It was sold as a 60' Day Coach. Hope that helps.
                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          From: asleepy60
                                                                                                                          Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 3:57 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Anybody Know What Vintage?

                                                                                                                          Hi - I have purchased a Varney passenger coach. It is made of wood with paper sides and metal trucks. The box says: "Coach PA-40 Passenger".
                                                                                                                          Does anyone have any idea as to how old this kit might be? Thanks for any information.
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9022 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/14/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Check out my photos on Facebook
                                                                                                                          Please members refrain from posting these kinds of links. It's OK (in fact
                                                                                                                          encouraged) to put a link in your signature to any sites you may have (as in
                                                                                                                          my sig below), but these "broadcast" messages are spam.

                                                                                                                          Don
                                                                                                                          Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                          don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                          http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                          http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                          Owner
                                                                                                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          From: "Bob Blackwelder" <STOCKCREEK@...>
                                                                                                                          To: "VintageHO" <vintageho@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                          Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 12:49 AM
                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Check out my photos on Facebook


                                                                                                                          Hi VintageHO,


                                                                                                                          (text deleted)
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9023 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/14/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Check out my photos on Facebook
                                                                                                                          Consider youeself chastised. :-)

                                                                                                                          Don
                                                                                                                          listowner
                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          From: <STOCKCREEK@...>
                                                                                                                          To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                          Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 4:58 AM
                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Check out my photos on Facebook


                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > SORRY I MESSED UP
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          > BOB BLACKWELDER
                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9024 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/15/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
                                                                                                                          In a message dated 3/14/2009 6:10:01 PM EDT, Jim wrote:
                                                                                                                          a Revel set
                                                                                                                          That's Revell, with 2 ls.  I built enough of their (non-railroad) models.  Now I have several of their long-out-of-production HO models (and probably a few airplanes, too).
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Ralph B
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9025 From: jim heckard Date: 3/15/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Fw: Layout
                                                                                                                              Yes your right Revell not Revel. A mistake of one finger typing and spell check not finding it. Sorry. Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                          Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 4:42 PM
                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: Layout

                                                                                                                          In a message dated 3/14/2009 6:10:01 PM EDT, Jim wrote:
                                                                                                                          a Revel set
                                                                                                                          That's Revell, with 2 ls.  I built enough of their (non-railroad) models.  Now I have several of their long-out-of- production HO models (and probably a few airplanes, too).
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Ralph B
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9026 From: jim heckard Date: 3/15/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: running bigger engines
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          -----
                                                                                                                                     With the completion of the basic shape of all the mountains on my new layout I now have "edges" that I can run bigger engines without fear. Right now I am running an AHM/Rivarossi 2-8-8-2 Mallet. This was the earliest Mallet imported in 1966 and has the "square" motor. Later models have a round motor  While I eventually want to run my Varney Yellowstone and my Winton Allegheny this was my first attempt to running bigger and articulated engines on my track. Tested out good with no problems.
                                                                                                                               Next thing will be to complete the trestle cross over area. I will add piers or abutments and finish around it with hand carved Hydrocal rock faces. Since I'm building a vintage railroad using brass track, running true vintage items, DC power, I might install a Marx HO girder bridge that is from one of the sets I have. A real retro layout every way possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9027 From: jim heckard Date: 3/15/2009
                                                                                                                          Subject: running bigger engines
                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                              Sorry forgot to send the pictures with the 1st email
                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                       With the completion of the basic shape of all the mountains on my layout I now have "edges" that I can run bigger engines without fear. Right now I am running an AHM/Rivarossi 2-8-8-2 Mallet. This was the earliest Mallet imported in 1966 and has the "square" motor. Later models have a round motor  While I eventually want to run my Varney Yellowstone and my Winton Allegheny this was my first attempt to running bigger and articulated engines on my track. Tested out good with no problems.
                                                                                                                                 Next thing will be to complete the trestle cross over area. I will add piers or abutments and finish around it with hand carved Hydrocal rock faces. Since I'm building a vintage railroad using brass track, running true vintage items, DC power, I might install a Marx HO girder bridge that is from one of the sets I have. A real retro layout every way possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9028 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 3/15/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: running bigger engines
                                                                                                                            Lots of nice looking Marx cars in that group.
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Steve
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 6:55 PM
                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] running bigger engines

                                                                                                                              Sorry forgot to send the pictures with the 1st email
                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                       With the completion of the basic shape of all the mountains on my layout I now have "edges" that I can run bigger engines without fear. Right now I am running an AHM/Rivarossi 2-8-8-2 Mallet. This was the earliest Mallet imported in 1966 and has the "square" motor. Later models have a round motor  While I eventually want to run my Varney Yellowstone and my Winton Allegheny this was my first attempt to running bigger and articulated engines on my track. Tested out good with no problems.
                                                                                                                                 Next thing will be to complete the trestle cross over area. I will add piers or abutments and finish around it with hand carved Hydrocal rock faces. Since I'm building a vintage railroad using brass track, running true vintage items, DC power, I might install a Marx HO girder bridge that is from one of the sets I have. A real retro layout every way possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9029 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 3/16/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: New One Aristo Craft Locos for sale
                                                                                                                            I have a couple of the old AristoCraft/New One locos that I am going to sell. If anyone on the list has any interest, please contact me off line.

                                                                                                                            Matt Coleman
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9030 From: jim heckard Date: 3/16/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: running bigger engines
                                                                                                                            Steve,
                                                                                                                                     My vintage collection doesn't contain many freight cars unless they happen to be part of a set. (My collection stretched now just trying to have all brands / types of engines and passenger cars) The few freight cars I have are some Marx and Revell but the Marx, some being very light,  track well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Jim H
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 1:15 AM
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] running bigger engines

                                                                                                                            Lots of nice looking Marx cars in that group.
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Steve
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 6:55 PM
                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] running bigger engines

                                                                                                                              Sorry forgot to send the pictures with the 1st email
                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                       With the completion of the basic shape of all the mountains on my layout I now have "edges" that I can run bigger engines without fear. Right now I am running an AHM/Rivarossi 2-8-8-2 Mallet. This was the earliest Mallet imported in 1966 and has the "square" motor. Later models have a round motor  While I eventually want to run my Varney Yellowstone and my Winton Allegheny this was my first attempt to running bigger and articulated engines on my track. Tested out good with no problems.
                                                                                                                                 Next thing will be to complete the trestle cross over area. I will add piers or abutments and finish around it with hand carved Hydrocal rock faces. Since I'm building a vintage railroad using brass track, running true vintage items, DC power, I might install a Marx HO girder bridge that is from one of the sets I have. A real retro layout every way possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9031 From: jim heckard Date: 3/16/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: running big engines
                                                                                                                                               Thanks to a fellow model railroader, who reminded me of something I had totally forgot, I now realize I can't run my Winton Allegheny and Varney Yellowstone on my partially completed layout. The part I totally forgot was that Rivarossi articulated engines were made to run on 18" radius track. Unlike prototypes they have both front and back sets of drivers flexing. I can't run my Varney Yellowstone or Winton Allegheny on this track as the back set of drivers is rigid (like the real thing). I also found out I can't run my Varney Northerns either. I now have to check to see if I can run others like the Penn Line T-1 or the original (Redlands CA) Challenger. I knew all along that I wouldn't be able to run any rigid steam of 10 or 12 drivers but wasn't worried because they are not part of my vintage collection. The only vintage steam I have with 10 drivers is the Penn Line 2-10-0 decapod and with it's blind drivers I have no problem. I have had no problem with other engines of 8 or less drivers so far.
                                                                                                                                                   Some of these bigger engines will have to wait till I build the other main lines, that I plan to add, that will have bigger radius curves. After all I'm a vintage collector first with a layout to run them on second. Till that time I still have many different vintage engines I can run (150+ steam and 200 diesels) for now. Live and learn and thank goodness for helpful people.
                                                                                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9032 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/17/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: running big engines
                                                                                                                            In a message dated 3/16/2009 5:41:58 PM EDT, Jim H. wrote:
                                                                                                                            Rivarossi articulated engines were made to run on 18" radius track. Unlike prototypes they have both front and back sets of drivers flexing.
                                                                                                                            ------------------
                                                                                                                            And that's exactly why I never bought one.  Actually, they'd go around 18" radius curves even if the rear engine was fixed to the boiler; their front overhang would simply be greater and that's what the double pivot was designed to reduce.
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            I've had a problem running a smaller engine, a Penn Line E6s Atlantic.  If there's a slight dip in the track, there's so little clearance between the frame and both the lead and trailing trucks that the drivers are suspended in mid-air.
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Raph B.
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9033 From: jim heckard Date: 3/17/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Running what you like
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            -----  Ralph,
                                                                                                                                     I'm glad that you enjoy your HO trains doing your thing no matter what that is. I don't have to defend the way I have chosen to do things. While some people might not like a Rivarossi Mallet running on 18" curves it doesn't bother me. I think that ugly , overhung articulated Mallet looks just fine running on some very tight S curves and pulling a string through the mountains.
                                                                                                                                    I don't buy my engines on a whim. I'm a VINTAGE collector. If you chose not to buy an item made in 1966 or back to 1936  because you don't like it's looks or the way it runs that's fine. I'm sure you buy engines that suit your needs. I'm also sure that you use "shortcuts", that real railroads don't use, having fun and enjoyment doing your thing no matter what you run or the type of layout you have to run HO trains on.
                                                                                                                                    Again to each his own but no matter what Happy Model Railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9034 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/17/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Running what you like
                                                                                                                            In a message dated 3/17/2009 2:37:04 PM EDT, Jim wrote:
                                                                                                                            I'm also sure that you use "shortcuts", that real railroads don't use, having fun and enjoyment doing your thing no matter what you run or the type of layout you have to run HO trains on.
                                                                                                                            --------------
                                                                                                                            One advantage I have over most model railroaders is that I actually retired from the industry after 30 (non-continuous) years as a clerk, yardmater, equipment coordinator, marketing analyst, and dispatcher.  I KNOW when I'm making/breaking the rules.  (Hehehehehehe!)
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Ralph B.
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9035 From: jim heckard Date: 3/17/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Running what you like
                                                                                                                                   Ralph B,
                                                                                                                                       I think it's a bad idea to take one sentence out of the context of an entire Email and change the meaning of what was being discussed.  We were talking about running a Rivarossi articulated engines on 18" radius and that you wouldn't buy a Mallet for that reason. That is your decision. The short comings I was talking about where in reference to using HO engines that might not be 100% perfect.
                                                                                                                                      While I bow to your background in the real railroad industry I still feel you have to compromise, in some aspects, when it comes to what equipment you run, if you have a layout and the way you run it as it pertains to HO model railroading.
                                                                                                                                      I certainly don't intend to try to change your feelings and I know you won't change mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 4:36 PM
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Running what you like

                                                                                                                            In a message dated 3/17/2009 2:37:04 PM EDT, Jim wrote:
                                                                                                                            I'm also sure that you use "shortcuts", that real railroads don't use, having fun and enjoyment doing your thing no matter what you run or the type of layout you have to run HO trains on.
                                                                                                                            ------------ --
                                                                                                                            One advantage I have over most model railroaders is that I actually retired from the industry after 30 (non-continuous) years as a clerk, yardmater, equipment coordinator, marketing analyst, and dispatcher.  I KNOW when I'm making/breaking the rules.  (Hehehehehehe! )
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Ralph B.
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9036 From: jim heckard Date: 3/17/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: running others
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            -----

                                                                                                                                             I found 3 more engines I can run on my dinky 18" radius curves. Full HO scale GG-1 and EP-4 by Schrader and a George Stock GG-1. I did find out something the hard way. Don't try to run an electric with a Pantograph up under an in complete trestle where you just have a piece of wood right now. There goes one pantograph.
                                                                                                                                     Thank goodness that the first George Stock GG-1's (1938) just have fake non moveable wires formed to shape , one up and one down, that were not even joined in the middle. That's how George Stock, who was known as the "King of HO" had to do things pre war. After the war he made or had made working pantographs.
                                                                                                                                      I guess I shouldn't be to proud that I was able to get these electrics to run on my under radius mainline. I CHEATED and had NO over head wire or third powered rail like the real thing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim H.
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9037 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/17/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: running others
                                                                                                                            I cheat there with my Milwaukee "Little Joes"--I have dummy Geeps and SD's to trail them--anyone asks--I point to the diesels.  I think the MILW was the only electric  (main line) line to run electrics--PE ran mixes of steam or diesel with electrics--had to have the electric loco to activate signals.
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 5:26 PM
                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] running others

                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            -----

                                                                                                                                             I found 3 more engines I can run on my dinky 18" radius curves. Full HO scale GG-1 and EP-4 by Schrader and a George Stock GG-1. I did find out something the hard way. Don't try to run an electric with a Pantograph up under an in complete trestle where you just have a piece of wood right now. There goes one pantograph.
                                                                                                                                     Thank goodness that the first George Stock GG-1's (1938) just have fake non moveable wires formed to shape , one up and one down, that were not even joined in the middle. That's how George Stock, who was known as the "King of HO" had to do things pre war. After the war he made or had made working pantographs.
                                                                                                                                      I guess I shouldn't be to proud that I was able to get these electrics to run on my under radius mainline. I CHEATED and had NO over head wire or third powered rail like the real thing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim H.
                                                                                                                             


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                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9038 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/17/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Running what you like
                                                                                                                            In a message dated 3/17/2009 6:27:02 PM EDT, Jim wrote:
                                                                                                                            We were talking about running a Rivarossi articulated engines on 18" radius and that you wouldn't buy a Mallet for that reason.
                                                                                                                            ----------------
                                                                                                                            It's not that I wouldn't run an articulated on 18" radius curves.  I was simply pointing out that the dual pivot mounting of the Rivarossi articulated had nothing to do with its ability to negotiate tight curves.  Take the boiler off and the engine will negotiate 18" radius curves.  Mount the boiler rigidly to the rear engine and it will still take 18" radius curves; it will simply wipe out anything more than one inch high out to a radius of 20 or 21 inches.  ;-)
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            For the money, it was probably one of the best-detailed plastic engines of its time.
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Ralph B.
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9039 From: Chris B Date: 3/17/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: running others
                                                                                                                            Jim, I'm sure there was more than one full-scale pantograph ripped off on a prototype road when someone forgot to put it down before going under a low bridge...If you want to be correct and prototypical in your operation you need to conduct an infraction investigation and see if a 1/87 scale letter of warning should be put in your permanent record! <g>
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            One of the reasons I model the Washington & Old Dominion is the prototype did not operate by ICC stds, or anything close to them...they were the mchale's navy of the mid atlantic.   The line and the crews were fortunate to usually evade fatal errors, but they did everything imaginable and still continued to operate.
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Not on time, not at a profit, not efficiently, and not in accordance with the rules, but they did love to run their trains. 
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Brass hats even wrote warning memos saying customers were upset because since employees didn't wear uniforms, as far as the passengers knew, engineers were willing to let any of their friend drive the train if they were so inclined!
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            There was no money for maintenance or frills, you paid cash on board for a passenger ride and got a hand written receipt from a conductor wearing a sidearm, there were usually shotguns in the cabs and more than one train halted to permit the crew to bag dinner...
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            When there were impacts between the small W&OD engines and big box trucks on the grade crossings, the engines often ended up in the ditch!
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            So I can be prototypical in my operations and still run my trains for fun anyway I like with a cold one in one hand and the throttle in the other, and if anything happens that would cause real harm in the real world, since our tiny passengers and crew are impervious to injury, and our stockholders can't vote us off the board, Let's Run our trains anyway we want, it's our railroad!!
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Chris Brannigan

                                                                                                                            From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 8:26:19 PM
                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] running others

                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            -----

                                                                                                                                             I found 3 more engines I can run on my dinky 18" radius curves. Full HO scale GG-1 and EP-4 by Schrader and a George Stock GG-1. I did find out something the hard way. Don't try to run an electric with a Pantograph up under an in complete trestle where you just have a piece of wood right now. There goes one pantograph.
                                                                                                                                     Thank goodness that the first George Stock GG-1's (1938) just have fake non moveable wires formed to shape , one up and one down, that were not even joined in the middle. That's how George Stock, who was known as the "King of HO" had to do things pre war. After the war he made or had made working pantographs.
                                                                                                                                      I guess I shouldn't be to proud that I was able to get these electrics to run on my under radius mainline. I CHEATED and had NO over head wire or third powered rail like the real thing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim H.
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9040 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/17/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: running others
                                                                                                                            In a message dated 3/17/2009 8:26:48 PM EDT, :
                                                                                                                            I found ...more engines I can run on my dinky 18" radius curves. Full HO scale GG-1...by Schrader and a George Stock GG-1
                                                                                                                            I've been told it's not full scale, but my Penn Line GG-1 will take 18" radius curves.  I saw it a few years ago - in its original box WITH 3 coaches - at a nearby toy train shop (the proprietor doesn't handle much HO) and it found a new home shortly thereafter.
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            I belong to an HO modular layout club and I'd love to do an engine terminal a la Ivy City where I can legitimately show off steam, diesel, and electric "engines."  The rest of the club isn't likely to let me string wire over even one main line so I could show off electric motors in their proper environment.  :-(
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Ralph B.
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9041 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/17/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: running others
                                                                                                                            In a message dated 3/17/2009 9:04:58 PM EDT, Chris Brannigan wrote:
                                                                                                                            more than one train halted to permit the crew to bag dinner
                                                                                                                            -----------------
                                                                                                                            It's usually not passenger trains, but I was a dispatcher for a shortline where this was a regular occurence during deer season.  Conductor got off once, lined a buck up in his sights, and........click!  He'd left his magazine and ammunition in the locomotive cab.  ;-)
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Ralph B.
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9042 From: jim heckard Date: 3/17/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: running others
                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                            That W&OD railroad sounds like one of the most interesting roads I've ever heard of. I wonder how many times they ran with a cold one in their hand. No state police to stop them for DUI. This type of operation interesting to me. Sounds like they had fun even though a little dangerous. I enjoyed this story.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            From: Chris B
                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 9:04 PM
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] running others

                                                                                                                            Jim, I'm sure there was more than one full-scale pantograph ripped off on a prototype road when someone forgot to put it down before going under a low bridge...If you want to be correct and prototypical in your operation you need to conduct an infraction investigation and see if a 1/87 scale letter of warning should be put in your permanent record! <g>
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            One of the reasons I model the Washington & Old Dominion is the prototype did not operate by ICC stds, or anything close to them...they were the mchale's navy of the mid atlantic.   The line and the crews were fortunate to usually evade fatal errors, but they did everything imaginable and still continued to operate.
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Not on time, not at a profit, not efficiently, and not in accordance with the rules, but they did love to run their trains. 
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Brass hats even wrote warning memos saying customers were upset because since employees didn't wear uniforms, as far as the passengers knew, engineers were willing to let any of their friend drive the train if they were so inclined!
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            There was no money for maintenance or frills, you paid cash on board for a passenger ride and got a hand written receipt from a conductor wearing a sidearm, there were usually shotguns in the cabs and more than one train halted to permit the crew to bag dinner...
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            When there were impacts between the small W&OD engines and big box trucks on the grade crossings, the engines often ended up in the ditch!
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            So I can be prototypical in my operations and still run my trains for fun anyway I like with a cold one in one hand and the throttle in the other, and if anything happens that would cause real harm in the real world, since our tiny passengers and crew are impervious to injury, and our stockholders can't vote us off the board, Let's Run our trains anyway we want, it's our railroad!!
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Chris Brannigan

                                                                                                                            From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 8:26:19 PM
                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] running others

                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            -----

                                                                                                                                             I found 3 more engines I can run on my dinky 18" radius curves. Full HO scale GG-1 and EP-4 by Schrader and a George Stock GG-1. I did find out something the hard way. Don't try to run an electric with a Pantograph up under an in complete trestle where you just have a piece of wood right now. There goes one pantograph.
                                                                                                                                     Thank goodness that the first George Stock GG-1's (1938) just have fake non moveable wires formed to shape , one up and one down, that were not even joined in the middle. That's how George Stock, who was known as the "King of HO" had to do things pre war. After the war he made or had made working pantographs.
                                                                                                                                      I guess I shouldn't be to proud that I was able to get these electrics to run on my under radius mainline. I CHEATED and had NO over head wire or third powered rail like the real thing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim H.
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9043 From: jim heckard Date: 3/17/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: An HO GG-1 question
                                                                                                                            Ralph,
                                                                                                                                     I was to quick in deleting a message I wanted to respond to. First I have to clarify something for my knowledge. You mentioned you had heard it wasn't full size. Were you referring to the Schrader or George Stock GG-1. I was always under the impression that Schrader, George Stock and FAMOCO GG-1's were full size scale for HO. Hope I'm saying that right. I know Penn Line and the Japanese HOTCO copy were undersize. This is the first I've heard the "larger" GG-1 copies were still to small. Appreciate your thoughts on this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9044 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/17/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: running others
                                                                                                                            Alpvalsys@... wrote:
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            > I belong to an HO modular layout club and I'd love to do an engine
                                                                                                                            > terminal a la Ivy City where I can legitimately show off steam, diesel,
                                                                                                                            > and electric "engines." The rest of the club isn't likely to let me
                                                                                                                            > string wire over even one main line so I could show off electric motors
                                                                                                                            > in their proper environment. :-(

                                                                                                                            I know of at least two modular clubs that are oriented towards
                                                                                                                            traction modeling. One is the East Penn group (don't know full name. The
                                                                                                                            other is based in the Los Angeles area. I have seen the LA group's setup
                                                                                                                            and they do run with overhead and REQUIRE models to be wired for live
                                                                                                                            overhead operation. I don't know about the East Penn group.

                                                                                                                            --

                                                                                                                            Rick Jones

                                                                                                                            "As every cat owner knows, nobody owns a cat."
                                                                                                                            - Ellen Perry Berkeley
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9045 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/18/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: An HO GG-1 question
                                                                                                                            In a message dated 3/17/2009 9:57:45 PM EDT, Jim H. wrote:
                                                                                                                            Were you referring to the Schrader or George Stock GG-1?...I know Penn Line and the Japanese HOTCO copy were undersize.
                                                                                                                            ------------------------
                                                                                                                            I was refering to my Penn Line GG-1.
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Ralph B.
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9046 From: jim heckard Date: 3/18/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: An HO GG-1 question
                                                                                                                            Ralph B, John H,
                                                                                                                                   Thanks for your responses. I apologize for being under the gun and reading a message to quick. I see now it was the Penn Line GG-1 mentioned as undersize.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 8:26 AM
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] An HO GG-1 question

                                                                                                                            In a message dated 3/17/2009 9:57:45 PM EDT, Jim H. wrote:
                                                                                                                            Were you referring to the Schrader or George Stock GG-1?...I know Penn Line and the Japanese HOTCO copy were undersize.
                                                                                                                            ------------ --------- ---
                                                                                                                            I was refering to my Penn Line GG-1.
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Ralph B.
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9047 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/18/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Running what you like

                                                                                                                            Jim
                                                                                                                            In response to your intresting comment on the overhang, I feel the same as you do, in the last Club I was a member of they frowned on my buying the 86 ft Hi Cubes and the other Trailer Train 86 ft cars because they would not look good on the layout because of the overhang. What is bad is I have actually seen some spots in real life where they overhang almost as much as on the layout.
                                                                                                                            So I still bought them.
                                                                                                                            Charlie W.
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            From: "jim heckard"
                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Running what you like
                                                                                                                            Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:21:00 -0400

                                                                                                                                   Ralph B,
                                                                                                                                       I think it's a bad idea to take one sentence out of the context of an entire Email and change the meaning of what was being discussed.  We were talking about running a Rivarossi articulated engines on 18" radius and that you wouldn't buy a Mallet for that reason. That is your decision. The short comings I was talking about where in reference to using HO engines that might not be 100% perfect.
                                                                                                                                      While I bow to your background in the real railroad industry I still feel you have to compromise, in some aspects, when it comes to what equipment you run, if you have a layout and the way you run it as it pertains to HO model railroading.
                                                                                                                                      I certainly don't intend to try to change your feelings and I know you won't change mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 4:36 PM
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Running what you like

                                                                                                                            In a message dated 3/17/2009 2:37:04 PM EDT, Jim wrote:
                                                                                                                            I'm also sure that you use "shortcuts", that real railroads don't use, having fun and enjoyment doing your thing no matter what you run or the type of layout you have to run HO trains on.
                                                                                                                            ------------ --
                                                                                                                            One advantage I have over most model railroaders is that I actually retired from the industry after 30 (non-continuous) years as a clerk, yardmater, equipment coordinator, marketing analyst, and dispatcher.  I KNOW when I'm making/breaking the rules.  (Hehehehehehe! )
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Ralph B.


                                                                                                                            --
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                                                                                                                            Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
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                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9048 From: jim heckard Date: 3/18/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Running what you like
                                                                                                                            Hi Charles,
                                                                                                                                      You are kind of limited if you are a member of a club that does things a little different then you. In real life I know of a couple of areas around me that use to be Pennsylvania, Lehigh Valley and Reading RR's where things built years prior don't quite mesh with today. Just like those full size railroads of today that use previous trackage have to conform so we modelers have to also.
                                                                                                                                      I would like to relate a story. On a little different track (pun intended) because of what happened to me when I forgot to put down a pantograph (while testing an engine) I hit a low bridge and ruined a pantograph. It reminded me of something that constanly happens close to me. There is a little town called Cressona. In this town is a railyard used by the Reading and Northern of today but was used by the Pennsy years ago.  Part of the rails in this yard cross over state route 183. It has been like this for as long as I can remember. The underpass will only handle truck trailers up to (I think) 11' 3" or 11' 8" . Not quite sure but a low bridge.  With the advent of larger and higher trailers this low bridge has become a nightmare with trailers getting constantly getting stuck under it. There were 14 incidences last year alone. By the way this route 183 to Reading has a lot of traffic using it. These wrecks have become a nuisance. The state has tried to remedy this by rerouting trucks around, many flashing lights as a reminder, etc. to let truckers know but it hasn't helped. They now have what is called a headache bar before the bridge that is set to the height of the underpass. That way any truck higher will hit this bar first and hopefully alert the driver.
                                                                                                                                    Will it help. I don't know but it just shows that things from years ago can't be changed now. Penn Dot can't lower the road and the Reading and Northern (and the parent company Blue Mountain and Reading) bought up the rights and can't or won't change there rail yard.
                                                                                                                                I think it's such an interesting situation that I intend to model it with a very low underpass through the mountain close to my cross over trestle because of my GG-1 pantograph incident. Can't conform in real life so I will model it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 1:00 PM
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Running what you like


                                                                                                                            Jim
                                                                                                                            In response to your intresting comment on the overhang, I feel the same as you do, in the last Club I was a member of they frowned on my buying the 86 ft Hi Cubes and the other Trailer Train 86 ft cars because they would not look good on the layout because of the overhang. What is bad is I have actually seen some spots in real life where they overhang almost as much as on the layout.
                                                                                                                            So I still bought them.
                                                                                                                            Charlie W.
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            From: "jim heckard"
                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Running what you like
                                                                                                                            Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:21:00 -0400

                                                                                                                                   Ralph B,
                                                                                                                                       I think it's a bad idea to take one sentence out of the context of an entire Email and change the meaning of what was being discussed.  We were talking about running a Rivarossi articulated engines on 18" radius and that you wouldn't buy a Mallet for that reason. That is your decision. The short comings I was talking about where in reference to using HO engines that might not be 100% perfect.
                                                                                                                                      While I bow to your background in the real railroad industry I still feel you have to compromise, in some aspects, when it comes to what equipment you run, if you have a layout and the way you run it as it pertains to HO model railroading.
                                                                                                                                      I certainly don't intend to try to change your feelings and I know you won't change mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 4:36 PM
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Running what you like

                                                                                                                            In a message dated 3/17/2009 2:37:04 PM EDT, Jim wrote:
                                                                                                                            I'm also sure that you use "shortcuts", that real railroads don't use, having fun and enjoyment doing your thing no matter what you run or the type of layout you have to run HO trains on.
                                                                                                                            ------------ --
                                                                                                                            One advantage I have over most model railroaders is that I actually retired from the industry after 30 (non-continuous) years as a clerk, yardmater, equipment coordinator, marketing analyst, and dispatcher.  I KNOW when I'm making/breaking the rules.  (Hehehehehehe! )
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Ralph B.


                                                                                                                            --
                                                                                                                            Be Yourself @ mail.com!
                                                                                                                            Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
                                                                                                                            Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9049 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/18/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Running what you like
                                                                                                                            for a story about drastic overhang--I used to have a portable O Scale layout--took it to conventions--used Rivarossi sectional track--80cm radius (about 31.5")--a friend tried a brass DD-35 on it--couldn't pull any cars because of the coupler offset--and if you looked straight down at it--the inside rail of the curve was visible over the outside-side of the  frame.  One might replicate that with an Athearn DD-40 and 18" radius in HO. 
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 10:00 AM
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Running what you like


                                                                                                                            Jim
                                                                                                                            In response to your intresting comment on the overhang, I feel the same as you do, in the last Club I was a member of they frowned on my buying the 86 ft Hi Cubes and the other Trailer Train 86 ft cars because they would not look good on the layout because of the overhang. What is bad is I have actually seen some spots in real life where they overhang almost as much as on the layout.
                                                                                                                            So I still bought them.
                                                                                                                            Charlie W.
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            From: "jim heckard"
                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Running what you like
                                                                                                                            Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:21:00 -0400

                                                                                                                                   Ralph B,
                                                                                                                                       I think it's a bad idea to take one sentence out of the context of an entire Email and change the meaning of what was being discussed.  We were talking about running a Rivarossi articulated engines on 18" radius and that you wouldn't buy a Mallet for that reason. That is your decision. The short comings I was talking about where in reference to using HO engines that might not be 100% perfect.
                                                                                                                                      While I bow to your background in the real railroad industry I still feel you have to compromise, in some aspects, when it comes to what equipment you run, if you have a layout and the way you run it as it pertains to HO model railroading.
                                                                                                                                      I certainly don't intend to try to change your feelings and I know you won't change mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 4:36 PM
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Running what you like

                                                                                                                            In a message dated 3/17/2009 2:37:04 PM EDT, Jim wrote:
                                                                                                                            I'm also sure that you use "shortcuts", that real railroads don't use, having fun and enjoyment doing your thing no matter what you run or the type of layout you have to run HO trains on.
                                                                                                                            ------------ --
                                                                                                                            One advantage I have over most model railroaders is that I actually retired from the industry after 30 (non-continuous) years as a clerk, yardmater, equipment coordinator, marketing analyst, and dispatcher.  I KNOW when I'm making/breaking the rules.  (Hehehehehehe! )
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Ralph B.


                                                                                                                            --
                                                                                                                            Be Yourself @ mail.com!
                                                                                                                            Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
                                                                                                                            Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!


                                                                                                                            No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                            Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.18/2009 - Release Date: 03/18/09 07:17:00
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9050 From: erieberk Date: 3/18/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: running others
                                                                                                                            There were a number of prototype railroads that had electric main line to run heavy electrics like the Milwaukee Road did. Most notably were the Great Northern, the Pennsy, the Virginian and the New Haven. Ray W.



                                                                                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            > I cheat there with my Milwaukee "Little Joes"--I have dummy Geeps and SD's to trail them--anyone asks--I point to the diesels. I think the MILW was the only electric (main line) line to run electrics--PE ran mixes of steam or diesel with electrics--had to have the electric loco to activate signals.
                                                                                                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            > From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                            > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                            > Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 5:26 PM
                                                                                                                            > Subject: [vintageHO] running others
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            > -----
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            > I found 3 more engines I can run on my dinky 18" radius curves. Full HO scale GG-1 and EP-4 by Schrader and a George Stock GG-1. I did find out something the hard way. Don't try to run an electric with a Pantograph up under an in complete trestle where you just have a piece of wood right now. There goes one pantograph.
                                                                                                                            > Thank goodness that the first George Stock GG-1's (1938) just have fake non moveable wires formed to shape , one up and one down, that were not even joined in the middle. That's how George Stock, who was known as the "King of HO" had to do things pre war. After the war he made or had made working pantographs.
                                                                                                                            > I guess I shouldn't be to proud that I was able to get these electrics to run on my under radius mainline. I CHEATED and had NO over head wire or third powered rail like the real thing.
                                                                                                                            > Jim H.
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                            > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.16/2005 - Release Date: 03/16/09 19:01:00
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9051 From: Jerry Prather Date: 3/18/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: running others
                                                                                                                            On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 01:07:31 +0000, erieberk wrote:

                                                                                                                            >There were a number of prototype railroads that had electric main line to run heavy electrics like the Milwaukee Road did. Most notably were the Great Northern, the Pennsy, the Virginian and the New Haven. Ray W.

                                                                                                                            Uh, you forgot the Piedmont & Northern. It was still running
                                                                                                                            from Charlotte to the west when I was in high school. There's a
                                                                                                                            great book which covers the line.


                                                                                                                            Jerry

                                                                                                                            --
                                                                                                                            "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough
                                                                                                                            to take away everything you have"

                                                                                                                            Thomas Jefferson
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9052 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/18/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: running others
                                                                                                                            but did they MU electrics and chisels on a regular basis? gj
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                            To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:07 PM
                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: running others


                                                                                                                            > There were a number of prototype railroads that had electric main line to
                                                                                                                            > run heavy electrics like the Milwaukee Road did. Most notably were the
                                                                                                                            > Great Northern, the Pennsy, the Virginian and the New Haven. Ray W.
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                            >> I cheat there with my Milwaukee "Little Joes"--I have dummy Geeps and
                                                                                                                            >> SD's to trail them--anyone asks--I point to the diesels. I think the
                                                                                                                            >> MILW was the only electric (main line) line to run electrics--PE ran
                                                                                                                            >> mixes of steam or diesel with electrics--had to have the electric loco to
                                                                                                                            >> activate signals.
                                                                                                                            >> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            >> From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                            >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                            >> Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 5:26 PM
                                                                                                                            >> Subject: [vintageHO] running others
                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                            >> -----
                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                            >> I found 3 more engines I can run on my dinky 18"
                                                                                                                            >> radius curves. Full HO scale GG-1 and EP-4 by Schrader and a George Stock
                                                                                                                            >> GG-1. I did find out something the hard way. Don't try to run an electric
                                                                                                                            >> with a Pantograph up under an in complete trestle where you just have a
                                                                                                                            >> piece of wood right now. There goes one pantograph.
                                                                                                                            >> Thank goodness that the first George Stock GG-1's (1938)
                                                                                                                            >> just have fake non moveable wires formed to shape , one up and one down,
                                                                                                                            >> that were not even joined in the middle. That's how George Stock, who was
                                                                                                                            >> known as the "King of HO" had to do things pre war. After the war he made
                                                                                                                            >> or had made working pantographs.
                                                                                                                            >> I guess I shouldn't be to proud that I was able to get
                                                                                                                            >> these electrics to run on my under radius mainline. I CHEATED and had NO
                                                                                                                            >> over head wire or third powered rail like the real thing.
                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                            >> Jim H.
                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                            >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                            >> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                            >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                            >> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.16/2005 - Release Date:
                                                                                                                            >> 03/16/09 19:01:00
                                                                                                                            >>
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                            >


                                                                                                                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                                                                                            No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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                                                                                                                            07:17:00
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9053 From: railwaymodeler Date: 3/19/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
                                                                                                                            Recently I picked up a box of locomotive parts on eBay- in it was a mostly complete Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 electric. At first, until researching it on this group's archived posts, I thought it was a German electircal, especially because there was a Marklin class 96 boiler in there.

                                                                                                                            Anyway, the Castor engine was minus motor. That isn't a problem, as I have managed to make a Penn Line motor fit in it and turn the wheels. What I need to know, is how did current get from the rails to the motor? I am thinking I am missing parts for that. I see some heavy (Building grade) solid wire inside, but one end leads to where the motor brushes were, and the other seem to lead nowhere. Anyone got a diagram of how this was put together? I would like to use this around my coal mine (After stringing up some catenary, of course!), or use it between the mines and the nearby town.

                                                                                                                            This one has me stumped. I'm so close, with the motor, yet so far.

                                                                                                                            Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9054 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/19/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Running what you like
                                                                                                                            Jim
                                                                                                                            Very intresting and all too true in the REAL WORLD in modleing we try to actually get things to work for us. Thanks for the story.
                                                                                                                            Charlie W.

                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            From: "jim heckard"
                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Running what you like
                                                                                                                            Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 13:56:26 -0400

                                                                                                                            Hi Charles,
                                                                                                                                      You are kind of limited if you are a member of a club that does things a little different then you. In real life I know of a couple of areas around me that use to be Pennsylvania, Lehigh Valley and Reading RR's where things built years prior don't quite mesh with today. Just like those full size railroads of today that use previous trackage have to conform so we modelers have to also.
                                                                                                                                      I would like to relate a story. On a little different track (pun intended) because of what happened to me when I forgot to put down a pantograph (while testing an engine) I hit a low bridge and ruined a pantograph. It reminded me of something that constanly happens close to me. There is a little town called Cressona. In this town is a railyard used by the Reading and Northern of today but was used by the Pennsy years ago.  Part of the rails in this yard cross over state route 183. It has been like this for as long as I can remember. The underpass will only handle truck trailers up to (I think) 11' 3" or 11' 8" . Not quite sure but a low bridge.  With the advent of larger and higher trailers this low bridge has become a nightmare with trailers getting constantly getting stuck under it. There were 14 incidences last year alone. By the way this route 183 to Reading has a lot of traffic using it. These wrecks have become a nuisance. The state has tried to remedy this by rerouting trucks around, many flashing lights as a reminder, etc. to let truckers know but it hasn't helped. They now have what is called a headache bar before the bridge that is set to the height of the underpass. That way any truck higher will hit this bar first and hopefully alert the driver.
                                                                                                                                    Will it help. I don't know but it just shows that things from years ago can't be changed now. Penn Dot can't lower the road and the Reading and Northern (and the parent company Blue Mountain and Reading) bought up the rights and can't or won't change there rail yard.
                                                                                                                                I think it's such an interesting situation that I intend to model it with a very low underpass through the mountain close to my cross over trestle because of my GG-1 pantograph incident. Can't conform in real life so I will model it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 1:00 PM
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Running what you like


                                                                                                                            Jim
                                                                                                                            In response to your intresting comment on the overhang, I feel the same as you do, in the last Club I was a member of they frowned on my buying the 86 ft Hi Cubes and the other Trailer Train 86 ft cars because they would not look good on the layout because of the overhang. What is bad is I have actually seen some spots in real life where they overhang almost as much as on the layout.
                                                                                                                            So I still bought them.
                                                                                                                            Charlie W.
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            From: "jim heckard"
                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Running what you like
                                                                                                                            Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:21:00 -0400

                                                                                                                                   Ralph B,
                                                                                                                                       I think it's a bad idea to take one sentence out of the context of an entire Email and change the meaning of what was being discussed.  We were talking about running a Rivarossi articulated engines on 18" radius and that you wouldn't buy a Mallet for that reason. That is your decision. The short comings I was talking about where in reference to using HO engines that might not be 100% perfect.
                                                                                                                                      While I bow to your background in the real railroad industry I still feel you have to compromise, in some aspects, when it comes to what equipment you run, if you have a layout and the way you run it as it pertains to HO model railroading.
                                                                                                                                      I certainly don't intend to try to change your feelings and I know you won't change mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 4:36 PM
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Running what you like

                                                                                                                            In a message dated 3/17/2009 2:37:04 PM EDT, Jim wrote:
                                                                                                                            I'm also sure that you use "shortcuts", that real railroads don't use, having fun and enjoyment doing your thing no matter what you run or the type of layout you have to run HO trains on.
                                                                                                                            ------------ --
                                                                                                                            One advantage I have over most model railroaders is that I actually retired from the industry after 30 (non-continuous) years as a clerk, yardmater, equipment coordinator, marketing analyst, and dispatcher.  I KNOW when I'm making/breaking the rules.  (Hehehehehehe! )
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Ralph B.


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                                                                                                                            --
                                                                                                                            Be Yourself @ mail.com!
                                                                                                                            Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
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                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9055 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/19/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
                                                                                                                            Sounds like you could make some wheel wipers(phosphor bronze preferred as the material) and find a way to mount them. Unless you insulate them from the frame, that will define "which side of the chassis is ground." Not hard, just a finicky job - clearances and all that.
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Hope that helps.
                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                            Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) <---------got some .005" bronze...

                                                                                                                            --- On Thu, 3/19/09, railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                            From: railwaymodeler <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                            Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 12:09 PM

                                                                                                                            Recently I picked up a box of locomotive parts on eBay- in it was a mostly complete Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 electric. At first, until researching it on this group's archived posts, I thought it was a German electircal, especially because there was a Marklin class 96 boiler in there.

                                                                                                                            Anyway, the Castor engine was minus motor. That isn't a problem, as I have managed to make a Penn Line motor fit in it and turn the wheels. What I need to know, is how did current get from the rails to the motor? I am thinking I am missing parts for that. I see some heavy (Building grade) solid wire inside, but one end leads to where the motor brushes were, and the other seem to lead nowhere. Anyone got a diagram of how this was put together? I would like to use this around my coal mine (After stringing up some catenary, of course!), or use it between the mines and the nearby town.

                                                                                                                            This one has me stumped. I'm so close, with the motor, yet so far.

                                                                                                                            Steve Neubaum



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                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9056 From: Roger Aultman Date: 3/19/2009
                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                              Hello Steve Attached is a picture of the castor Rat I have, all wheels
                                                                                                                              are insulated, there are two brush like pickups that rub on two drivers.
                                                                                                                              The unit runs OK a little high on the current draw, .6 amps. It looks like
                                                                                                                              a bit of work to fabricate a duplicate of the original perhaps wiper type
                                                                                                                              pickups would be more practical.
                                                                                                                              Roger Aultman



                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                              From: railwaymodeler
                                                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:09 AM
                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed


                                                                                                                              Recently I picked up a box of locomotive parts on eBay- in it was a mostly
                                                                                                                              complete Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 electric. At first, until researching it
                                                                                                                              on this group's archived posts, I thought it was a German electircal,
                                                                                                                              especially because there was a Marklin class 96 boiler in there.

                                                                                                                              Anyway, the Castor engine was minus motor. That isn't a problem, as I have
                                                                                                                              managed to make a Penn Line motor fit in it and turn the wheels. What I need
                                                                                                                              to know, is how did current get from the rails to the motor? I am thinking I
                                                                                                                              am missing parts for that. I see some heavy (Building grade) solid wire
                                                                                                                              inside, but one end leads to where the motor brushes were, and the other
                                                                                                                              seem to lead nowhere. Anyone got a diagram of how this was put together? I
                                                                                                                              would like to use this around my coal mine (After stringing up some
                                                                                                                              catenary, of course!), or use it between the mines and the nearby town.

                                                                                                                              This one has me stumped. I'm so close, with the motor, yet so far.

                                                                                                                              Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9057 From: jim heckard Date: 3/19/2009
                                                                                                                              Subject: Rivarossi Questions
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                              -----

                                                                                                                                      In the 60's and 70's Rivarossi had, to me, a unique sets of brushes for their motors. Don't know if they used them till the end. One brush was a solid carbon/graphite material with a little hole in the end to accept the spring for tension. It is the other brush I would like to know about. It was a very fine rolled piece of metal mesh made from what I don't know. I have never seen this before being used by other companies. Can anyone tell me the reason for it ?  Was it to dissipate heat from the motor ?  Does it matter which opening it was used in ? Could you use two solid brushes or two of the wire mesh pieces without doing damage ?
                                                                                                                                                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9058 From: jim heckard Date: 3/19/2009
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
                                                                                                                                    I have seen this engine in pictures before but have to ask some questions.  Are you trying to get electrical pickup from the rails or overhead using a pantograph ?  Next two questions might sound odd but to make sure. If from the rails does this model have metal or plastic drive wheels ?   If from a pantograph the pantograph plastic or metal ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 12:09 PM
                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed

                                                                                                                              Recently I picked up a box of locomotive parts on eBay- in it was a mostly complete Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 electric. At first, until researching it on this group's archived posts, I thought it was a German electircal, especially because there was a Marklin class 96 boiler in there.

                                                                                                                              Anyway, the Castor engine was minus motor. That isn't a problem, as I have managed to make a Penn Line motor fit in it and turn the wheels. What I need to know, is how did current get from the rails to the motor? I am thinking I am missing parts for that. I see some heavy (Building grade) solid wire inside, but one end leads to where the motor brushes were, and the other seem to lead nowhere. Anyone got a diagram of how this was put together? I would like to use this around my coal mine (After stringing up some catenary, of course!), or use it between the mines and the nearby town.

                                                                                                                              This one has me stumped. I'm so close, with the motor, yet so far.

                                                                                                                              Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9059 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/19/2009
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
                                                                                                                              jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                              > I have seen this engine in pictures before but have to ask some
                                                                                                                              > questions. Are you trying to get electrical pickup from the rails or
                                                                                                                              > overhead using a pantograph ? Next two questions might sound odd but
                                                                                                                              > to make sure. If from the rails does this model have metal or plastic
                                                                                                                              > drive wheels ? If from a pantograph the pantograph plastic or metal ?
                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                              Jim , I checked pictures and old Castor ads - it seems the pantograph
                                                                                                                              was a simple non operating metal assembly, fixed in the upright
                                                                                                                              position. So overhead pickup couldnt be achieved without substituting
                                                                                                                              another pantograph.

                                                                                                                              Gerold
                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9060 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/19/2009
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Rivarossi Questions
                                                                                                                              jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                              > -----
                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                              > In the 60's and 70's Rivarossi had, to me, a unique sets
                                                                                                                              > of brushes for their motors. Don't know if they used them till the
                                                                                                                              > end. One brush was a solid carbon/graphite material with a little
                                                                                                                              > hole in the end to accept the spring for tension. It is the other
                                                                                                                              > brush I would like to know about. It was a very fine rolled piece
                                                                                                                              > of metal mesh made from what I don't know. I have never seen this
                                                                                                                              > before being used by other companies. Can anyone tell me the
                                                                                                                              > reason for it ? Was it to dissipate heat from the motor ? Does
                                                                                                                              > it matter which opening it was used in ? Could you use two solid
                                                                                                                              > brushes or two of the wire mesh pieces without doing damage ?
                                                                                                                              > Jim H
                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                              Jim,
                                                                                                                              Not familiar with those Rivarossi brushes but our local champion -
                                                                                                                              Kleinbahn - used the same arrangement. The metal ( actually brass mesh)
                                                                                                                              brush was supposed to clean carbon deposit left from the other brush,
                                                                                                                              apparently the depositing action of one brush should be balanced by the
                                                                                                                              cleaning action of the other one. As the carbon had some lubrication
                                                                                                                              effect, I assume using two brass brushes would result in running the
                                                                                                                              commutator "dry". Have tinkered with those brushes fourty years ago, but
                                                                                                                              cant remember in detail what I found out.

                                                                                                                              Gerold
                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9061 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/19/2009
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Running what you like
                                                                                                                              I sure hope those truckers get citations worth $$$$ before they are allowed to retreat to where they should have gone-- 
                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 9:33 AM
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Running what you like

                                                                                                                              Jim
                                                                                                                              Very intresting and all too true in the REAL WORLD in modleing we try to actually get things to work for us. Thanks for the story.
                                                                                                                              Charlie W.
                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9062 From: jim heckard Date: 3/19/2009
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
                                                                                                                                Roger,
                                                                                                                                           I  have a question about the Castor Plastic B-1 Rat picture you sent. I had thought the kit was entirely plastic and static. Is the motor in the picture one you or someone else installed and are the metal drivers from the factory ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                         Thanks     Jim H
                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 1:37 PM
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed

                                                                                                                              Hello Steve Attached is a picture of the castor Rat I have, all wheels
                                                                                                                              are insulated, there are two brush like pickups that rub on two drivers.
                                                                                                                              The unit runs OK a little high on the current draw, .6 amps. It looks like
                                                                                                                              a bit of work to fabricate a duplicate of the original perhaps wiper type
                                                                                                                              pickups would be more practical.
                                                                                                                              Roger Aultman

                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                              From: railwaymodeler
                                                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:09 AM
                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed

                                                                                                                              Recently I picked up a box of locomotive parts on eBay- in it was a mostly
                                                                                                                              complete Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 electric. At first, until researching it
                                                                                                                              on this group's archived posts, I thought it was a German electircal,
                                                                                                                              especially because there was a Marklin class 96 boiler in there.

                                                                                                                              Anyway, the Castor engine was minus motor. That isn't a problem, as I have
                                                                                                                              managed to make a Penn Line motor fit in it and turn the wheels. What I need
                                                                                                                              to know, is how did current get from the rails to the motor? I am thinking I
                                                                                                                              am missing parts for that. I see some heavy (Building grade) solid wire
                                                                                                                              inside, but one end leads to where the motor brushes were, and the other
                                                                                                                              seem to lead nowhere. Anyone got a diagram of how this was put together? I
                                                                                                                              would like to use this around my coal mine (After stringing up some
                                                                                                                              catenary, of course!), or use it between the mines and the nearby town.

                                                                                                                              This one has me stumped. I'm so close, with the motor, yet so far.

                                                                                                                              Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9063 From: Glen Thomas Date: 3/19/2009
                                                                                                                              Subject: a few oldeis
                                                                                                                              I have quite a few older things around my layout. An old varny a F3 or F7 from 1946 still runs perfectly after I cleaned it. It had a bad paint job so I stripped it and started the black S. pacific paint on it. I also have several from 1954 one great northern w/ dummy b unit and 2 silver santa fe's. One of the units the cast metal expanded and cracked so the drive is inoperable. I also have early athearn rubber band all wheel drives. two S.F. F7's four RDC's 2 silver S.F.'s in blue boxes and 2 new haven's in orange and cream boxes 1 of each is a dummy. Quite a few athearn mid 60's to early70's diesels of different types. A mantua 0-4-0 shitcher in the box the tender is cracked badly but has not fallen apart. Can anyone comment about Frateschi trains I found a few in a box of stuff I bought are they any good? I also have 12 varny cars in boxes I don't want to change couplers so I don't use them. Lots of plasticville from the early 50's and three beemac buildings all in boxes. I also have American beauty's union pacific and Chicago N.W. 4 built 6 not and 2 blue line all tin metal coaches one w/ rounded back. And some old roundhouse boxed. I am willing to trade or sell some things.. Also a BUB Germany set tin cars plastic and metal engine and Marx track I never herd of these have you? also a Klein set with a plastic and cast metal electric engine the cast front and rear parts cracked and fell apart the engine has seen better days I think its all here most of the cars are in boxes. these I would like to trade or sell the most

                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9064 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/19/2009
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Rivarossi Questions
                                                                                                                              I have seen similar in Lionel motors, but no idea why they do it.  gj
                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 10:54 AM
                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi Questions

                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                              -----
                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9065 From: toytrain13 Date: 3/20/2009
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: a few oldeis
                                                                                                                              Hi Glenn- I would be interested in purchasing the Blue Line cars, if they are in kit form. What railroads are they? I'm a Blue Line freak- I am currently constructing several- mostly PRR. Regards- Richard W.
                                                                                                                              > I have quite a few older things around my layout. An old varny a F3 or F7 from 1946 still runs perfectly after I cleaned it. It had a bad paint job so I stripped it and started the black S. pacific paint on it. I also have several from 1954 one great northern w/ dummy b unit and 2 silver santa fe's. One of the units the cast metal expanded and cracked so the drive is inoperable. I also have early athearn rubber band all wheel drives. two S.F. F7's four RDC's 2 silver S.F.'s in blue boxes and 2 new haven's in orange and cream boxes 1 of each is a dummy. Quite a few athearn mid 60's to early70's diesels of different types. A mantua 0-4-0 shitcher in the box the tender is cracked badly but has not fallen apart. Can anyone comment about Frateschi trains I found a few in a box of stuff I bought are they any good? I also have 12 varny cars in boxes I don't want to change couplers so I don't use them. Lots of plasticville from the early 50's and three
                                                                                                                              > beemac buildings all in boxes. I also have American beauty's union pacific and Chicago N.W. 4 built 6 not and 2 blue line all tin metal coaches one w/ rounded back. And some old roundhouse boxed. I am willing to trade or sell some things. Also a BUB Germany set tin cars plastic and metal engine and Marx track I never herd of these have you? also a Klein set with a plastic and cast metal electric engine the cast front and rear parts cracked and fell apart the engine has seen better days I think its all here most of the cars are in boxes. these I would like to trade or sell the most
                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9066 From: Roger Aultman Date: 3/20/2009
                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                Hello Jim I received the rat motorized, attached is a scan of the
                                                                                                                                documentation that came with it. The wheels have plastic centers and
                                                                                                                                bright metal tires, I hope they are not aluminum. The unit runs well on the
                                                                                                                                test track. There were some plastic pieces included that I am guessing
                                                                                                                                were the means of fasteninng the body to the chassis. perhaps broken from
                                                                                                                                overtigthening? It is a interesting design, I have heard it credited as
                                                                                                                                being the first plastic H-0 locomotive. Roger





                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:46 PM
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed


                                                                                                                                Roger,
                                                                                                                                I have a question about the Castor Plastic B-1 Rat picture you
                                                                                                                                sent. I had thought the kit was entirely plastic and static. Is the motor in
                                                                                                                                the picture one you or someone else installed and are the metal drivers from
                                                                                                                                the factory ?
                                                                                                                                Thanks
                                                                                                                                Jim H

                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                From: Roger Aultman
                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 1:37 PM
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed


                                                                                                                                Hello Steve Attached is a picture of the castor Rat I have, all wheels
                                                                                                                                are insulated, there are two brush like pickups that rub on two drivers.
                                                                                                                                The unit runs OK a little high on the current draw, .6 amps. It looks like
                                                                                                                                a bit of work to fabricate a duplicate of the original perhaps wiper type
                                                                                                                                pickups would be more practical.
                                                                                                                                Roger Aultman
                                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 9067 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/20/2009
                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                  Roger Aultman wrote:
                                                                                                                                  > Hello Jim I received the rat motorized, attached is a scan of the
                                                                                                                                  > documentation that came with it. The wheels have plastic centers and
                                                                                                                                  > bright metal tires, I hope they are not aluminum. The unit runs well on the
                                                                                                                                  > test track. There were some plastic pieces included that I am guessing
                                                                                                                                  > were the means of fasteninng the body to the chassis. perhaps broken from
                                                                                                                                  > overtigthening? It is a interesting design, I have heard it credited as
                                                                                                                                  > being the first plastic H-0 locomotive. Roger
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  Hi Roger + Jim,
                                                                                                                                  as your scan is titled "Castor instructions 02" I understand there is a
                                                                                                                                  #1 too? Would you please send this too? And, ithink our friend Larry
                                                                                                                                  Stephenson might be interested to display this on his website...

                                                                                                                                  I have two NOS Castor "Rat" bodies , bought from Rick Weil some years
                                                                                                                                  ago. Include a scan of an Castor ad From MR February 1947 with this
                                                                                                                                  message, to prove this was a motorized model.

                                                                                                                                  gerold
                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9068 From: jim heckard Date: 3/20/2009
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
                                                                                                                                  Gerold, Roger,
                                                                                                                                                Appreciate the response and the pictures. Gerold the writing for the ad states Pittman powered so definitely came powered from the factory. Never knew it came powered. Have to find one for my collection. It would fit right in with my FAMOCO and Trackside Specialties B-1 Rats.
                                                                                                                                                                                              Jim
                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 5:24 AM
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed

                                                                                                                                  Roger Aultman wrote:
                                                                                                                                  > Hello Jim I received the rat motorized, attached is a scan of the
                                                                                                                                  > documentation that came with it. The wheels have plastic centers and
                                                                                                                                  > bright metal tires, I hope they are not aluminum. The unit runs well on the
                                                                                                                                  > test track. There were some plastic pieces included that I am guessing
                                                                                                                                  > were the means of fasteninng the body to the chassis. perhaps broken from
                                                                                                                                  > overtigthening? It is a interesting design, I have heard it credited as
                                                                                                                                  > being the first plastic H-0 locomotive. Roger
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  Hi Roger + Jim,
                                                                                                                                  as your scan is titled "Castor instructions 02" I understand there is a
                                                                                                                                  #1 too? Would you please send this too? And, ithink our friend Larry
                                                                                                                                  Stephenson might be interested to display this on his website...

                                                                                                                                  I have two NOS Castor "Rat" bodies , bought from Rick Weil some years
                                                                                                                                  ago. Include a scan of an Castor ad From MR February 1947 with this
                                                                                                                                  message, to prove this was a motorized model.

                                                                                                                                  gerold
                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9069 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/20/2009
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: a few oldeis
                                                                                                                                  Huh?? What?? I don't have any Blue Line cars, kit or otherwise--only kit I
                                                                                                                                  have for sale now is a Hartford Fn3 stock car. gj Glenn Joesten (Is there
                                                                                                                                  another 2-n Glenn out there?)
                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                  From: "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...>
                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:56 PM
                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: a few oldeis


                                                                                                                                  Hi Glenn- I would be interested in purchasing the Blue Line cars, if they
                                                                                                                                  are in kit form. What railroads are they? I'm a Blue Line freak- I am
                                                                                                                                  currently constructing several- mostly PRR. Regards- Richard W.
                                                                                                                                  > I have quite a few older things around my layout. An old varny a F3 or F7
                                                                                                                                  > from 1946 still runs perfectly after I cleaned it. It had a bad paint job
                                                                                                                                  > so I stripped it and started the black S. pacific paint on it. I also have
                                                                                                                                  > several from 1954 one great northern w/ dummy b unit and 2 silver santa
                                                                                                                                  > fe's. One of the units the cast metal expanded and cracked so the drive is
                                                                                                                                  > inoperable. I also have early athearn rubber band all wheel drives. two
                                                                                                                                  > S.F. F7's four RDC's 2 silver S.F.'s in blue boxes and 2 new haven's in
                                                                                                                                  > orange and cream boxes 1 of each is a dummy. Quite a few athearn mid 60's
                                                                                                                                  > to early70's diesels of different types. A mantua 0-4-0 shitcher in the
                                                                                                                                  > box the tender is cracked badly but has not fallen apart. Can anyone
                                                                                                                                  > comment about Frateschi trains I found a few in a box of stuff I bought
                                                                                                                                  > are they any good? I also have 12 varny cars in boxes I don't want to
                                                                                                                                  > change couplers so I don't use them. Lots of plasticville from the early
                                                                                                                                  > 50's and three
                                                                                                                                  > beemac buildings all in boxes. I also have American beauty's union
                                                                                                                                  > pacific and Chicago N.W. 4 built 6 not and 2 blue line all tin metal
                                                                                                                                  > coaches one w/ rounded back. And some old roundhouse boxed. I am willing
                                                                                                                                  > to trade or sell some things. Also a BUB Germany set tin cars plastic and
                                                                                                                                  > metal engine and Marx track I never herd of these have you? also a Klein
                                                                                                                                  > set with a plastic and cast metal electric engine the cast front and rear
                                                                                                                                  > parts cracked and fell apart the engine has seen better days I think its
                                                                                                                                  > all here most of the cars are in boxes. these I would like to trade or
                                                                                                                                  > sell the most
                                                                                                                                  >




                                                                                                                                  ------------------------------------

                                                                                                                                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                                                                                                                                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.20/2013 - Release Date: 03/19/09
                                                                                                                                  19:03:00
                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9070 From: Glen Thomas Date: 3/20/2009
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: a few oldeis

                                                                                                                                  To Toytrain 13

                                                                                                                                  The blue line coaches are both Chicago & north western. One is combination car untouched in the box the other is an observation car built and coming apart these are tinplate the backbone brace is balsa as are the under carriage components. I don't think trucks came with these but the built one has trucks.

                                                                                                                                   I'm not sure what they are worth. I was hoping to sell all 12 of the coaches together. Offer up a decent trade or offer for the right exchange I will brake them up. Where do live? I live in Nevada   
                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9071 From: Roger Aultman Date: 3/20/2009
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
                                                                                                                                  The 02 was just my note there was no further documentation.   Roger
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 4:24 AM
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed

                                                                                                                                  Roger Aultman wrote:
                                                                                                                                  > Hello Jim I received the rat motorized, attached is a scan of the
                                                                                                                                  > documentation that came with it. The wheels have plastic centers and
                                                                                                                                  > bright metal tires, I hope they are not aluminum. The unit runs well on the
                                                                                                                                  > test track. There were some plastic pieces included that I am guessing
                                                                                                                                  > were the means of fasteninng the body to the chassis. perhaps broken from
                                                                                                                                  > overtigthening? It is a interesting design, I have heard it credited as
                                                                                                                                  > being the first plastic H-0 locomotive. Roger
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  Hi Roger + Jim,
                                                                                                                                  as your scan is titled "Castor instructions 02" I understand there is a
                                                                                                                                  #1 too? Would you please send this too? And, ithink our friend Larry
                                                                                                                                  Stephenson might be interested to display this on his website...

                                                                                                                                  I have two NOS Castor "Rat" bodies , bought from Rick Weil some years
                                                                                                                                  ago. Include a scan of an Castor ad From MR February 1947 with this
                                                                                                                                  message, to prove this was a motorized model.

                                                                                                                                  gerold
                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9072 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/20/2009
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: a few oldeis
                                                                                                                                  I think he was trying to get Glen not Glenn I can not figure how he might make that mistak you two don"t look a thing alike (Wink, Wink).
                                                                                                                                  Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                  > From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                  > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: a few oldeis
                                                                                                                                  > Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 09:33:11 -0700
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > Huh?? What?? I don't have any Blue Line cars, kit or otherwise--only kit I
                                                                                                                                  > have for sale now is a Hartford Fn3 stock car. gj Glenn Joesten (Is there
                                                                                                                                  > another 2-n Glenn out there?)
                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                  > From: "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...>
                                                                                                                                  > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:56 PM
                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: a few oldeis
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > Hi Glenn- I would be interested in purchasing the Blue Line cars, if they
                                                                                                                                  > are in kit form. What railroads are they? I'm a Blue Line freak- I am
                                                                                                                                  > currently constructing several- mostly PRR. Regards- Richard W.
                                                                                                                                  > > I have quite a few older things around my layout. An old varny a
                                                                                                                                  > > F3 or F7 from 1946 still runs perfectly after I cleaned it. It
                                                                                                                                  > > had a bad paint job so I stripped it and started the black S.
                                                                                                                                  > > pacific paint on it. I also have several from 1954 one great
                                                                                                                                  > > northern w/ dummy b unit and 2 silver santa fe's. One of the
                                                                                                                                  > > units the cast metal expanded and cracked so the drive is
                                                                                                                                  > > inoperable. I also have early athearn rubber band all wheel
                                                                                                                                  > > drives. two S.F. F7's four RDC's 2 silver S.F.'s in blue boxes
                                                                                                                                  > > and 2 new haven's in orange and cream boxes 1 of each is a dummy.
                                                                                                                                  > > Quite a few athearn mid 60's to early70's diesels of different
                                                                                                                                  > > types. A mantua 0-4-0 shitcher in the box the tender is cracked
                                                                                                                                  > > badly but has not fallen apart. Can anyone comment about
                                                                                                                                  > > Frateschi trains I found a few in a box of stuff I bought are
                                                                                                                                  > > they any good? I also have 12 varny cars in boxes I don't want to
                                                                                                                                  > > change couplers so I don't use them. Lots of plasticville from
                                                                                                                                  > > the early 50's and three
                                                                                                                                  > > beemac buildings all in boxes. I also have American beauty's
                                                                                                                                  > > union pacific and Chicago N.W. 4 built 6 not and 2 blue line all
                                                                                                                                  > > tin metal coaches one w/ rounded back. And some old roundhouse
                                                                                                                                  > > boxed. I am willing to trade or sell some things. Also a BUB
                                                                                                                                  > > Germany set tin cars plastic and metal engine and Marx track I
                                                                                                                                  > > never herd of these have you? also a Klein set with a plastic and
                                                                                                                                  > > cast metal electric engine the cast front and rear parts cracked
                                                                                                                                  > > and fell apart the engine has seen better days I think its all
                                                                                                                                  > > here most of the cars are in boxes. these I would like to trade
                                                                                                                                  > > or sell the most
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                  > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                  > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.20/2013 - Release Date: 03/19/09
                                                                                                                                  > 19:03:00
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >


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                                                                                                                                  Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
                                                                                                                                  Get a Free Account at www.mail.com
                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9073 From: frank Date: 3/20/2009
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Photos added to tottrain album
                                                                                                                                  I added 8 photos to my album. 1- Lionel E-33, 2- Aristo Craft Mikado, 3-Aristo craft 0-8-0, 4- John English Pacific, 5- HObbyline H10-44, 6- John Englist Yardbird Kit box, 7- Yardbird PRR A5, 8- Marx Hudson.
                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9074 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/20/2009
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: a few oldeis
                                                                                                                                  OK--I was wondering what that was about--I guess we don't sound alike
                                                                                                                                  either--- 8^)
                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                  From: "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...>
                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:12 AM
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: a few oldeis


                                                                                                                                  >I think he was trying to get Glen not Glenn I can not figure how he might
                                                                                                                                  >make that mistak you two don"t look a thing alike (Wink, Wink).
                                                                                                                                  > Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                  >> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                  >> From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                  >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                  >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: a few oldeis
                                                                                                                                  >> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 09:33:11 -0700
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >> Huh?? What?? I don't have any Blue Line cars, kit or otherwise--only kit
                                                                                                                                  >> I
                                                                                                                                  >> have for sale now is a Hartford Fn3 stock car. gj Glenn Joesten (Is
                                                                                                                                  >> there
                                                                                                                                  >> another 2-n Glenn out there?)
                                                                                                                                  >> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                  >> From: "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...>
                                                                                                                                  >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                  >> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:56 PM
                                                                                                                                  >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: a few oldeis
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >> Hi Glenn- I would be interested in purchasing the Blue Line cars, if they
                                                                                                                                  >> are in kit form. What railroads are they? I'm a Blue Line freak- I am
                                                                                                                                  >> currently constructing several- mostly PRR. Regards- Richard W.
                                                                                                                                  >> > I have quite a few older things around my layout. An old varny a
                                                                                                                                  >> > F3 or F7 from 1946 still runs perfectly after I cleaned it. It
                                                                                                                                  >> > had a bad paint job so I stripped it and started the black S.
                                                                                                                                  >> > pacific paint on it. I also have several from 1954 one great
                                                                                                                                  >> > northern w/ dummy b unit and 2 silver santa fe's. One of the
                                                                                                                                  >> > units the cast metal expanded and cracked so the drive is
                                                                                                                                  >> > inoperable. I also have early athearn rubber band all wheel
                                                                                                                                  >> > drives. two S.F. F7's four RDC's 2 silver S.F.'s in blue boxes
                                                                                                                                  >> > and 2 new haven's in orange and cream boxes 1 of each is a dummy.
                                                                                                                                  >> > Quite a few athearn mid 60's to early70's diesels of different
                                                                                                                                  >> > types. A mantua 0-4-0 shitcher in the box the tender is cracked
                                                                                                                                  >> > badly but has not fallen apart. Can anyone comment about
                                                                                                                                  >> > Frateschi trains I found a few in a box of stuff I bought are
                                                                                                                                  >> > they any good? I also have 12 varny cars in boxes I don't want to
                                                                                                                                  >> > change couplers so I don't use them. Lots of plasticville from
                                                                                                                                  >> > the early 50's and three
                                                                                                                                  >> > beemac buildings all in boxes. I also have American beauty's
                                                                                                                                  >> > union pacific and Chicago N.W. 4 built 6 not and 2 blue line all
                                                                                                                                  >> > tin metal coaches one w/ rounded back. And some old roundhouse
                                                                                                                                  >> > boxed. I am willing to trade or sell some things. Also a BUB
                                                                                                                                  >> > Germany set tin cars plastic and metal engine and Marx track I
                                                                                                                                  >> > never herd of these have you? also a Klein set with a plastic and
                                                                                                                                  >> > cast metal electric engine the cast front and rear parts cracked
                                                                                                                                  >> > and fell apart the engine has seen better days I think its all
                                                                                                                                  >> > here most of the cars are in boxes. these I would like to trade
                                                                                                                                  >> > or sell the most
                                                                                                                                  >> >
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                  >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                  >> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.20/2013 - Release Date:
                                                                                                                                  >> 03/19/09
                                                                                                                                  >> 19:03:00
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                  > Be Yourself @ mail.com!
                                                                                                                                  > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
                                                                                                                                  > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com
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                                                                                                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.21/2014 - Release Date: 03/20/09
                                                                                                                                  06:59:00
                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9075 From: jim heckard Date: 3/20/2009
                                                                                                                                  Subject: wanted

                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                     Looking for a Castor's Plastic Pittman powered (from factory) Pennsylvania B-1 "Rat" Switcher. Contact me off site if you have one to part with.     jimheck@...
                                                                                                                                                                                     Jim H     
                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9076 From: Glen Thomas Date: 3/21/2009
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: a few oldeis
                                                                                                                                  What a riot..... This is the other Glen Thomas, Waukesha, WI. I don't have very much time to add comments/posts, but I just had to make it a point this time.

                                                                                                                                  Glen Thomas
                                                                                                                                  www.cctrains.com

                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > I think he was trying to get Glen not Glenn I can not figure how he might make that mistak you two don"t look a thing alike (Wink, Wink).
                                                                                                                                  > Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                  > > From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                  > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                  > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: a few oldeis
                                                                                                                                  > > Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 09:33:11 -0700
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > > Huh?? What?? I don't have any Blue Line cars, kit or otherwise--only kit I
                                                                                                                                  > > have for sale now is a Hartford Fn3 stock car. gj Glenn Joesten (Is there
                                                                                                                                  > > another 2-n Glenn out there?)
                                                                                                                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                  > > From: "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...>
                                                                                                                                  > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                  > > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:56 PM
                                                                                                                                  > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: a few oldeis
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > > Hi Glenn- I would be interested in purchasing the Blue Line cars, if they
                                                                                                                                  > > are in kit form. What railroads are they? I'm a Blue Line freak- I am
                                                                                                                                  > > currently constructing several- mostly PRR. Regards- Richard W.
                                                                                                                                  > > > I have quite a few older things around my layout. An old varny a
                                                                                                                                  > > > F3 or F7 from 1946 still runs perfectly after I cleaned it. It
                                                                                                                                  > > > had a bad paint job so I stripped it and started the black S.
                                                                                                                                  > > > pacific paint on it. I also have several from 1954 one great
                                                                                                                                  > > > northern w/ dummy b unit and 2 silver santa fe's. One of the
                                                                                                                                  > > > units the cast metal expanded and cracked so the drive is
                                                                                                                                  > > > inoperable. I also have early athearn rubber band all wheel
                                                                                                                                  > > > drives. two S.F. F7's four RDC's 2 silver S.F.'s in blue boxes
                                                                                                                                  > > > and 2 new haven's in orange and cream boxes 1 of each is a dummy.
                                                                                                                                  > > > Quite a few athearn mid 60's to early70's diesels of different
                                                                                                                                  > > > types. A mantua 0-4-0 shitcher in the box the tender is cracked
                                                                                                                                  > > > badly but has not fallen apart. Can anyone comment about
                                                                                                                                  > > > Frateschi trains I found a few in a box of stuff I bought are
                                                                                                                                  > > > they any good? I also have 12 varny cars in boxes I don't want to
                                                                                                                                  > > > change couplers so I don't use them. Lots of plasticville from
                                                                                                                                  > > > the early 50's and three
                                                                                                                                  > > > beemac buildings all in boxes. I also have American beauty's
                                                                                                                                  > > > union pacific and Chicago N.W. 4 built 6 not and 2 blue line all
                                                                                                                                  > > > tin metal coaches one w/ rounded back. And some old roundhouse
                                                                                                                                  > > > boxed. I am willing to trade or sell some things. Also a BUB
                                                                                                                                  > > > Germany set tin cars plastic and metal engine and Marx track I
                                                                                                                                  > > > never herd of these have you? also a Klein set with a plastic and
                                                                                                                                  > > > cast metal electric engine the cast front and rear parts cracked
                                                                                                                                  > > > and fell apart the engine has seen better days I think its all
                                                                                                                                  > > > here most of the cars are in boxes. these I would like to trade
                                                                                                                                  > > > or sell the most
                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                  > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                  > > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.20/2013 - Release Date: 03/19/09
                                                                                                                                  > > 19:03:00
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  >
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                                                                                                                                  > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
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                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9077 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/21/2009
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: running others
                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                  From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 12:02 AM
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] running others


                                                                                                                                  > Alpvalsys@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                  >> I belong to an HO modular layout club and I'd love to do an engine
                                                                                                                                  >> terminal a la Ivy City where I can legitimately show off steam, diesel,
                                                                                                                                  >> and electric "engines." The rest of the club isn't likely to let me
                                                                                                                                  >> string wire over even one main line so I could show off electric motors
                                                                                                                                  >> in their proper environment. :-(
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > I know of at least two modular clubs that are oriented towards
                                                                                                                                  > traction modeling. One is the East Penn group (don't know full name. The
                                                                                                                                  > other is based in the Los Angeles area. I have seen the LA group's setup
                                                                                                                                  > and they do run with overhead and REQUIRE models to be wired for live
                                                                                                                                  > overhead operation. I don't know about the East Penn group.
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > --
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                  > "As every cat owner knows, nobody owns a cat."
                                                                                                                                  > - Ellen Perry Berkeley

                                                                                                                                  Also our own Cream City Traction in Milwaukee (2 rail and overhead) and Eric
                                                                                                                                  Bronsky's group in Chicago (overhead only)

                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9078 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/21/2009
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
                                                                                                                                  Thanks for everyone's help. I did find that above the first and third axle, on both sides, are where there are wipers that touch the tops of the wheels. All but one wiper is gone, so that is probably how I missed that.

                                                                                                                                  I am guessing these wipers are very similar to Athearn motor brushes. I could, for now, use some of those in lieu of metal wipers. My concern over that is carbon getting on the wheel treads and hampering electrical pickup.

                                                                                                                                  This is turning into a nifty project locomotive!

                                                                                                                                  Thanks everyone!

                                                                                                                                  Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                  --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Roger Aultman <raul@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                  From: Roger Aultman <raul@...>
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                  Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 11:03 PM

                                                                                                                                  Hello Jim I received the rat motorized, attached is a scan of the
                                                                                                                                  documentation that came with it. The wheels have plastic centers and
                                                                                                                                  bright metal tires, I hope they are not aluminum. The unit runs well on the
                                                                                                                                  test track. There were some plastic pieces included that I am guessing
                                                                                                                                  were the means of fasteninng the body to the chassis. perhaps broken from
                                                                                                                                  overtigthening? It is a interesting design, I have heard it credited as
                                                                                                                                  being the first plastic H-0 locomotive. Roger

                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                  From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:46 PM
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed

                                                                                                                                  Roger,
                                                                                                                                  I have a question about the Castor Plastic B-1 Rat picture you
                                                                                                                                  sent. I had thought the kit was entirely plastic and static. Is the motor in
                                                                                                                                  the picture one you or someone else installed and are the metal drivers from
                                                                                                                                  the factory ?
                                                                                                                                  Thanks
                                                                                                                                  Jim H

                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                  From: Roger Aultman
                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 1:37 PM
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed

                                                                                                                                  Hello Steve Attached is a picture of the castor Rat I have, all wheels
                                                                                                                                  are insulated, there are two brush like pickups that rub on two drivers.
                                                                                                                                  The unit runs OK a little high on the current draw, .6 amps. It looks like
                                                                                                                                  a bit of work to fabricate a duplicate of the original perhaps wiper type
                                                                                                                                  pickups would be more practical.
                                                                                                                                  Roger Aultman
                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9079 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/21/2009
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
                                                                                                                                  Grandt Line--manufacturer of mostly On3 and HOn3 stuff--has a couple of pickup assemblies in their catalog--#7003 and 7005.  One is listed as for an On3 Shay but mounts nicely between any two wheels--includes a plastic mounting block and wire to connect---the other has two longer wire contacts.  Grandt recommends making contact on the edge or back of the flange.   gj  (Glenn Joesten)
                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:58 AM
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed

                                                                                                                                  Thanks for everyone's help. I did find that above the first and third axle, on both sides, are where there are wipers that touch the tops of the wheels. All but one wiper is gone, so that is probably how I missed that.

                                                                                                                                  I am guessing these wipers are very similar to Athearn motor brushes. I could, for now, use some of those in lieu of metal wipers. My concern over that is carbon getting on the wheel treads and hampering electrical pickup.

                                                                                                                                  This is turning into a nifty project locomotive!

                                                                                                                                  Thanks everyone!

                                                                                                                                  Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                  --- On Thu, 3/19/09, Roger Aultman <raul@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                  From: Roger Aultman <raul@...>
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed
                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                  Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 11:03 PM

                                                                                                                                  Hello Jim I received the rat motorized, attached is a scan of the
                                                                                                                                  documentation that came with it. The wheels have plastic centers and
                                                                                                                                  bright metal tires, I hope they are not aluminum. The unit runs well on the
                                                                                                                                  test track. There were some plastic pieces included that I am guessing
                                                                                                                                  were the means of fasteninng the body to the chassis. perhaps broken from
                                                                                                                                  overtigthening? It is a interesting design, I have heard it credited as
                                                                                                                                  being the first plastic H-0 locomotive. Roger

                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                  From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:46 PM
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed

                                                                                                                                  Roger,
                                                                                                                                  I have a question about the Castor Plastic B-1 Rat picture you
                                                                                                                                  sent. I had thought the kit was entirely plastic and static. Is the motor in
                                                                                                                                  the picture one you or someone else installed and are the metal drivers from
                                                                                                                                  the factory ?
                                                                                                                                  Thanks
                                                                                                                                  Jim H

                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                  From: Roger Aultman
                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 1:37 PM
                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Castor Plastics Pennsy B-1 'Rat'- Help needed

                                                                                                                                  Hello Steve Attached is a picture of the castor Rat I have, all wheels
                                                                                                                                  are insulated, there are two brush like pickups that rub on two drivers.
                                                                                                                                  The unit runs OK a little high on the current draw, .6 amps. It looks like
                                                                                                                                  a bit of work to fabricate a duplicate of the original perhaps wiper type
                                                                                                                                  pickups would be more practical.
                                                                                                                                  Roger Aultman


                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
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                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9080 From: jim heckard Date: 3/21/2009
                                                                                                                                  Subject: for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                  Attachments :

                                                                                                                                          A while back Sean N sent me some parts, a Mantua 0-6-0 frame and drive, a Tenshodo body ? and a unknown pilot and said create something. It's NOT a vintage engine for my collection, it's NOT a copy of a real engine, it's NOT out of the ordinary, used some Erie DIESEL decals laying around and did it just for fun. I added ladders under the doors. replaced a missing stack, added the handrails, and added a motor and a couple hours of time to take a break from my layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9081 From: Roger Aultman Date: 3/21/2009
                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                    Very business loooking loco Jim.   Roger Aultman
                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 6:46 PM
                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] for the fun of it


                                                                                                                                          A while back Sean N sent me some parts, a Mantua 0-6-0 frame and drive, a Tenshodo body ? and a unknown pilot and said create something. It's NOT a vintage engine for my collection, it's NOT a copy of a real engine, it's NOT out of the ordinary, used some Erie DIESEL decals laying around and did it just for fun. I added ladders under the doors. replaced a missing stack, added the handrails, and added a motor and a couple hours of time to take a break from my layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9082 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/21/2009
                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                    Nice job, Jim!~
                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                    Unremarkable-looking but I'll bet she's a good runner!
                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                    Not a bad passtime, either.
                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                    Looks like a candidate for conversion to a "cab forward."
                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                    (I did that with a silly little 0-4-0 (HOn2.5) by adding a scratched tender with a small coal-bunker, a tank from a Stephenson's Rocket, some wood as a cab extension, new headlight, taller stack, better motor magnet and such. Looks like something out of Lawrence of Arabia but it runs nicely and is an attenton-getter. [Gotta get that layout built...])
                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the pics!
                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                    Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

                                                                                                                                    --- On Sat, 3/21/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                    From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                    Date: Saturday, March 21, 2009, 7:46 PM


                                                                                                                                          A while back Sean N sent me some parts, a Mantua 0-6-0 frame and drive, a Tenshodo body ? and a unknown pilot and said create something. It's NOT a vintage engine for my collection, it's NOT a copy of a real engine, it's NOT out of the ordinary, used some Erie DIESEL decals laying around and did it just for fun. I added ladders under the doors. replaced a missing stack, added the handrails, and added a motor and a couple hours of time to take a break from my layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9083 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/21/2009
                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Love the use of the lindsay PA/FA unit brass side steps on the engine. The pilot deck was from a junk Athearn Light Mikado. If you are not going to use the valve gear, let me know. I can find a use.
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Man! That looks great!
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      I think I already showed you. Attached is the inspiration for the project..
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Sean 

                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 7:46:50 PM
                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] for the fun of it


                                                                                                                                            A while back Sean N sent me some parts, a Mantua 0-6-0 frame and drive, a Tenshodo body ? and a unknown pilot and said create something. It's NOT a vintage engine for my collection, it's NOT a copy of a real engine, it's NOT out of the ordinary, used some Erie DIESEL decals laying around and did it just for fun. I added ladders under the doors. replaced a missing stack, added the handrails, and added a motor and a couple hours of time to take a break from my layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 9084 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/21/2009
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                      OH.. forgot.
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                       The loco shell is a Vintage 50's Tenshodo 0-6-0 japan brass & cast lead import. It was a vear early import for Tenshodo.
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      If i may suggest the addition of a pair of marker lanterns on the front. I think they really finish a loco.
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      The one I pictured sold to a guy in Japan for just over $100. So, job well done Jim! If you insure your trains, I would add that new addition to the list at that value.
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                      From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 11:11:15 PM
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] for the fun of it

                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Love the use of the lindsay PA/FA unit brass side steps on the engine. The pilot deck was from a junk Athearn Light Mikado. If you are not going to use the valve gear, let me know. I can find a use.
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Man! That looks great!
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      I think I already showed you. Attached is the inspiration for the project..
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Sean 

                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 7:46:50 PM
                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] for the fun of it


                                                                                                                                            A while back Sean N sent me some parts, a Mantua 0-6-0 frame and drive, a Tenshodo body ? and a unknown pilot and said create something. It's NOT a vintage engine for my collection, it's NOT a copy of a real engine, it's NOT out of the ordinary, used some Erie DIESEL decals laying around and did it just for fun. I added ladders under the doors. replaced a missing stack, added the handrails, and added a motor and a couple hours of time to take a break from my layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 9085 From: jim heckard Date: 3/22/2009
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                      Sean,
                                                                                                                                               I'm not going to use the valve gear. I'll send it back to you this week. No marker lights now.To late to fool around. Only thing to do is add back coupler.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 11:11 PM
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] for the fun of it

                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Love the use of the lindsay PA/FA unit brass side steps on the engine. The pilot deck was from a junk Athearn Light Mikado. If you are not going to use the valve gear, let me know. I can find a use.
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Man! That looks great!
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      I think I already showed you. Attached is the inspiration for the project..
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Sean 

                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 7:46:50 PM
                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] for the fun of it


                                                                                                                                            A while back Sean N sent me some parts, a Mantua 0-6-0 frame and drive, a Tenshodo body ? and a unknown pilot and said create something. It's NOT a vintage engine for my collection, it's NOT a copy of a real engine, it's NOT out of the ordinary, used some Erie DIESEL decals laying around and did it just for fun. I added ladders under the doors. replaced a missing stack, added the handrails, and added a motor and a couple hours of time to take a break from my layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 9086 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 3/22/2009
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Need Athearn F-unit truck frame
                                                                                                                                      I am rehabbing an Athearn F-unit rubber band drive and need a truck frame.

                                                                                                                                      Earl Poulsen
                                                                                                                                      Vancouver, WA
                                                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 9087 From: bslook@aol.com Date: 3/22/2009
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Need Athearn F-unit truck frame
                                                                                                                                      Earl, send me your address and I will send you what you need.

                                                                                                                                      Regards, Brian Look
                                                                                                                                      Woodbridge, Virginia


                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                      From: Earl Poulsen <shyguy_98665@...>
                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 11:57 am
                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Need Athearn F-unit truck frame

                                                                                                                                      I am rehabbing an Athearn F-unit rubber band drive and need a truck frame.

                                                                                                                                      Earl Poulsen
                                                                                                                                      Vancouver, WA
                                                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 9088 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/22/2009
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                      Jim
                                                                                                                                      looked like fun
                                                                                                                                      Charlie W.

                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                      From: "jim heckard"
                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                      Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 19:46:50 -0400


                                                                                                                                            A while back Sean N sent me some parts, a Mantua 0-6-0 frame and drive, a Tenshodo body ? and a unknown pilot and said create something. It's NOT a vintage engine for my collection, it's NOT a copy of a real engine, it's NOT out of the ordinary, used some Erie DIESEL decals laying around and did it just for fun. I added ladders under the doors. replaced a missing stack, added the handrails, and added a motor and a couple hours of time to take a break from my layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                      << IMG_2958_1.JPG >>
                                                                                                                                      << IMG_2959_2.JPG >>
                                                                                                                                      << IMG_2962_3.JPG >>
                                                                                                                                      << IMG_2963_4.JPG >>

                                                                                                                                      --
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                                                                                                                                      Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
                                                                                                                                      Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!
                                                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 9089 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/22/2009
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Need Athearn F-unit truck frame
                                                                                                                                      In a message dated 3/22/2009 2:28:53 PM EST, Earl Poulsen wrote:
                                                                                                                                      I am rehabbing an Athearn F-unit rubber band drive and need a truck frame.
                                                                                                                                      -------------------
                                                                                                                                      I was glad to see someone else say he had the parts you wanted as there's no way I was going to part with mine.
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Back in 1960 my father sold our Marx O-27 equipment (steam & diesel locomotiives, cars, whistling station, track and switches) for $10 and bought an Athearn train set.  I still have it - slightly modified - and the F-unit chassis will fit the newer Highliners bodies.  The motor in one (the set came with powered and dummy units) died years ago as did the rubber bands, the bodies went into a New Haven FL-9 per an article in MR back in '62, and the hopper was shortened to two bays, but there's just too much sentimental value to part with the remaining pieces.
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Ralph B.

                                                                                                                                      Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less.
                                                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 9090 From: Wobbly913 Date: 3/22/2009
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Need Athearn F-unit truck frame
                                                                                                                                      Hi F trucks and other parts come up on ebay from time to time, and the rubber bands are still available from Athearn part # 90101. Complete engines are almost continually available from ebay also.  There would seem to be no shortage of them, while some paint schemes may be less common than others they are by no means rare.
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                      --- On Sun, 3/22/09, Alpvalsys@... <Alpvalsys@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                      From: Alpvalsys@... <Alpvalsys@...>
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Need Athearn F-unit truck frame
                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                      Date: Sunday, March 22, 2009, 2:32 PM

                                                                                                                                      In a message dated 3/22/2009 2:28:53 PM EST, Earl Poulsen wrote:
                                                                                                                                      I am rehabbing an Athearn F-unit rubber band drive and need a truck frame.
                                                                                                                                      -------------------
                                                                                                                                      I was glad to see someone else say he had the parts you wanted as there's no way I was going to part with mine.
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Back in 1960 my father sold our Marx O-27 equipment (steam & diesel locomotiives, cars, whistling station, track and switches) for $10 and bought an Athearn train set.  I still have it - slightly modified - and the F-unit chassis will fit the newer Highliners bodies.  The motor in one (the set came with powered and dummy units) died years ago as did the rubber bands, the bodies went into a New Haven FL-9 per an article in MR back in '62, and the hopper was shortened to two bays, but there's just too much sentimental value to part with the remaining pieces.
                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                      Ralph B.

                                                                                                                                      Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less.


                                                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 9091 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 3/22/2009
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Need Athearn F-unit truck frame
                                                                                                                                      Athearn Hi-F used at least three different types of truck bolsters holding the frames...  Fiber sheet bolster with a screw hole, fiber sheet bolster with a turned brass pivot fitted into a hole and the two metal side frames insulated from each other by a plastic insulator and assembled with two screws insulated from the truck frame by a plastic washer yoke. 

                                                                                                                                      You will need to know which type.

                                                                                                                                      Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                      ===============================================

                                                                                                                                      bslook@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                      Earl, send me your address and I will send you what you need.

                                                                                                                                      Regards, Brian Look
                                                                                                                                      Woodbridge, Virginia


                                                                                                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                      From: Earl Poulsen <shyguy_98665@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 11:57 am
                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Need Athearn F-unit truck frame

                                                                                                                                      I am rehabbing an Athearn F-unit rubber band drive and need a truck frame.

                                                                                                                                      Earl Poulsen
                                                                                                                                      Vancouver, WA
                                                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 9092 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/22/2009
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                      Mr. Heckard,

                                                                                                                                      This inspires me to back working on a project I was working on a few weeks ago until real life shelved it for me. I had a spare Mantua 0-4-0 frame/motor, a brass boiler and cab (I think from an earlier Prewar Mantua 0-6-0), some basswood and thin sheet aluminum, and a spare High Center freight car truck. The result was going to be an 0-4-4 Forney engine. Got it halfway done before computer repair work took over. Now I'm real tempted to get out that project and work on it.

                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                      --- On Sat, 3/21/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                      Date: Saturday, March 21, 2009, 6:46 PM


                                                                                                                                            A while back Sean N sent me some parts, a Mantua 0-6-0 frame and drive, a Tenshodo body ? and a unknown pilot and said create something. It's NOT a vintage engine for my collection, it's NOT a copy of a real engine, it's NOT out of the ordinary, used some Erie DIESEL decals laying around and did it just for fun. I added ladders under the doors. replaced a missing stack, added the handrails, and added a motor and a couple hours of time to take a break from my layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 9093 From: Larry Date: 3/23/2009
                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Need Athearn F-unit truck frame
                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      > Hi F trucks and other parts come up on ebay from time to time, and the rubber bands are still available from Athearn part # 90101. Complete engines are almost continually available from ebay also.  There would seem to be no shortage of them, while some paint schemes may be less common than others they are by no means rare.
                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                      > Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                      >


                                                                                                                                      I thought everything in Ebay was Rare? lol
                                                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 9094 From: jim heckard Date: 3/23/2009
                                                                                                                                      Subject: more inspiration
                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                        Stephan Neubaum.
                                                                                                                                                  Since one of my freelance type projects motivated you to complete one of yours I thought I would add a little more inspiration. While I had sent pictures of this to the group before maybe this will help you. This a "fantasy" 2-4-4 Forney that I made from parts bought off Ebay a little while back. It is NOT a copy of any real engine. It was assembled from 4 main parts             Part one was a Mantua 0-4-0 frame with drivers (Seems like a lot of these used as a basis for a project). It had a metal  extension built  to elongate the frame. There was a Rivarossi motor (round type) at the back and a longer then normal drive shaft with worm gear  that was housed in a box with bearings on each end for support.  I added a front truck with ornate wheels for looks        Part two was a brass boiler (unknown maker) with a brass headlight and stack. The domes (one was missing) are plastic. I added a bell and handrails.       Part three was a hand made cab made of white plastic missing a roof which I added.       Part four was a section for holding coal that looked like it was a manufactured item that had been reworked. I added a removable coal load to get in at the hidden wiring from motor to back truck.
                                                                                                                                                 These main parts were not in the best of shape. I cleaned them up and did a little reworking to fit all together. I then repainted the engine. One mistake I didn't notice, and I wish had thought of before assembled, was the trailing  truck sits a little to far back under the coal load. It came that way with the truck bolster already mounted.  I should have moved it a 1/2" forward. This engine needs some serious radius curve to run on, but it does run nice. I think it looks pretty good for starting out as junk.
                                                                                                                                                Again this is NOT a copy of any prototype. I assembled what I had to work with and this is the final project. I hope, since you are intending to build a Forney from parts, that you might get some ideas and a little more motivation to go for it.
                                                                                                                                                                             Jim H (Not Mr. Heckard)
                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 9095 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/23/2009
                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: more inspiration
                                                                                                                                        Hello Jim,
                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                        Definately another fine lovely job!  Even if it is not prototypical.. it sure looks it. You could tell me it is for some small private line outside of Chicago and I would easily believe you.
                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                        Sean

                                                                                                                                        From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                        Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 10:05:09 AM
                                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] more inspiration

                                                                                                                                        Stephan Neubaum.
                                                                                                                                                  Since one of my freelance type projects motivated you to complete one of yours I thought I would add a little more inspiration. While I had sent pictures of this to the group before maybe this will help you. This a "fantasy" 2-4-4 Forney that I made from parts bought off Ebay a little while back. It is NOT a copy of any real engine. It was assembled from 4 main parts             Part one was a Mantua 0-4-0 frame with drivers (Seems like a lot of these used as a basis for a project). It had a metal  extension built  to elongate the frame. There was a Rivarossi motor (round type) at the back and a longer then normal drive shaft with worm gear  that was housed in a box with bearings on each end for support.  I added a front truck with ornate wheels for looks        Part two was a brass boiler (unknown maker) with a brass headlight and stack. The domes (one was missing) are plastic. I added a bell and handrails.       Part three was a hand made cab made of white plastic missing a roof which I added.       Part four was a section for holding coal that looked like it was a manufactured item that had been reworked. I added a removable coal load to get in at the hidden wiring from motor to back truck.
                                                                                                                                                 These main parts were not in the best of shape. I cleaned them up and did a little reworking to fit all together. I then repainted the engine. One mistake I didn't notice, and I wish had thought of before assembled, was the trailing  truck sits a little to far back under the coal load. It came that way with the truck bolster already mounted.  I should have moved it a 1/2" forward. This engine needs some serious radius curve to run on, but it does run nice. I think it looks pretty good for starting out as junk.
                                                                                                                                                Again this is NOT a copy of any prototype. I assembled what I had to work with and this is the final project. I hope, since you are intending to build a Forney from parts, that you might get some ideas and a little more motivation to go for it.
                                                                                                                                                                             Jim H (Not Mr. Heckard)
                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 9096 From: Chris B Date: 3/23/2009
                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: more inspiration
                                                                                                                                        Jim, Sean, you can say it's for the EL!  Like the Manhattan Elevated, hundreds of forneys were used on the elevated railway in chicago.
                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                        SSRTloco25.jpg

                                                                                                                                        A northbound train pauses for passengers at Indiana Avenue in 1892. The South Side Elevated was one of two "L" company to use locomotives; the Lake Street was the other. By the end of 19th century, electric traction was in use on all "L" lines. (Photo from the Chicago Transit Authority Collection)


                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                        From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                        Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 10:53:35 AM
                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] more inspiration

                                                                                                                                        Hello Jim,
                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                        Definately another fine lovely job!  Even if it is not prototypical. . it sure looks it. You could tell me it is for some small private line outside of Chicago and I would easily believe you.
                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                        Sean

                                                                                                                                        From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                        Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 10:05:09 AM
                                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] more inspiration

                                                                                                                                        Stephan Neubaum.
                                                                                                                                                  Since one of my freelance type projects motivated you to complete one of yours I thought I would add a little more inspiration. While I had sent pictures of this to the group before maybe this will help you. This a "fantasy" 2-4-4 Forney that I made from parts bought off Ebay a little while back. It is NOT a copy of any real engine. It was assembled from 4 main parts             Part one was a Mantua 0-4-0 frame with drivers (Seems like a lot of these used as a basis for a project). It had a metal  extension built  to elongate the frame. There was a Rivarossi motor (round type) at the back and a longer then normal drive shaft with worm gear  that was housed in a box with bearings on each end for support.  I added a front truck with ornate wheels for looks        Part two was a brass boiler (unknown maker) with a brass headlight and stack. The domes (one was missing) are plastic. I added a bell and handrails.       Part three was a hand made cab made of white plastic missing a roof which I added.       Part four was a section for holding coal that looked like it was a manufactured item that had been reworked. I added a removable coal load to get in at the hidden wiring from motor to back truck.
                                                                                                                                                 These main parts were not in the best of shape. I cleaned them up and did a little reworking to fit all together. I then repainted the engine. One mistake I didn't notice, and I wish had thought of before assembled, was the trailing  truck sits a little to far back under the coal load. It came that way with the truck bolster already mounted.  I should have moved it a 1/2" forward. This engine needs some serious radius curve to run on, but it does run nice. I think it looks pretty good for starting out as junk.
                                                                                                                                                Again this is NOT a copy of any prototype. I assembled what I had to work with and this is the final project. I hope, since you are intending to build a Forney from parts, that you might get some ideas and a little more motivation to go for it.
                                                                                                                                                                             Jim H (Not Mr. Heckard)
                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 9097 From: jim heckard Date: 3/23/2009
                                                                                                                                        Subject: Winton Berkshire
                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                   As a lot of members know I have been building a new layout to go with my vintage collection. Since the major premise of this Yahoo site is to collect and RUN these vintage engines I have been taking items off my shelves to get them running after a long period of being dormant.  A lot of my vintage collection is left unpainted to show what they are made of. This is an engine I will be running on the layout that I painted and decaled.
                                                                                                                                                 This is a Winton Engineering 2-8-4 Berkshire made from 1950-1953. It was sold as a brass kit. It and a sister engine I have ( Winton 2-6-6-6 Allegheny which I left unpainted ) are very rare, hard to find and extremely hard to build. I bought this Berk in "basketcase shape" but with all parts there and a running motor. This engine is 100% as it came from the box. I must point out that Winton kits originally were marketed as having NO cast parts. They are not super detailed as a lot of items today. In fact I'm sure some people will cringe at things like the stamped brass side frames on the engines trailing truck and the tender.
                                                                                                                                                This is suppose to be a copy of a C&O class K-4. The drive is unique. It is a coil spring / pulley drive systems that only works if the coil spring is put around the pulleys doubled as the plans show. Since this is painted it will run on my new platform (which is modeled for no specific railroad) as a permanent item.
                                                                                                                                                 Thought some members might like to see a truly vintage HO engine, rebuilt and put back in pristine condition and running again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Jim H
                                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9098 From: Roger Aultman Date: 3/23/2009
                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Winton Berkshire
                                                                                                                                          Neat job Jim, were there later lost wax versions also? Roger Aultman




                                                                                                                                          As a lot of members know I have been building a new layout to go
                                                                                                                                          with my vintage collection. Since the major premise of this Yahoo site is to
                                                                                                                                          collect and RUN these vintage engines I have been taking items off my
                                                                                                                                          shelves to get them running after a long period of being dormant. A lot of
                                                                                                                                          my vintage collection is left unpainted to show what they are made of. This
                                                                                                                                          is an engine I will be running on the layout that I painted and decaled.
                                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9099 From: Chris B Date: 3/23/2009
                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Winton Berkshire
                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                            Jim, nice finish and decaling.  There's a certain consistent style to the flat truck sideframes, ladders, rivets and bodies of the tender and the engine that's different from what we're used to, but it does feature a design based on
                                                                                                                                            sheet stock rather than casting, and that makes the fabrication process Winton used become part of the design. 
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                            We're all used to photo etched sheet stock parts on modern models now, but at one time that was brand new.
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                            I do have a question about a kit I just acquired on ebay. It's boxed as a Locomotive Workshop interurban car, and don't have it in my  hands yet, but it sure looks like early photo etching to me.
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                            Are you familiar with kits from this maker?  Can anyone offer any tips or hints. It's my first time hearing of them, but that doesn't mean anything.  Before assembling this kit to serve as the single remaining such car that operated as an RPO on the W&OD in the 40's, I'd like to think I could use the unassembled kit components to make flat templates. Then some day in the future I would use the templates for fabrication of similar brass sheet bodies for a dozen interurban cars I could use to backdate my layout to the early 30's. 


                                                                                                                                            Chris B.


                                                                                                                                            ________________________________
                                                                                                                                            From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                            Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 2:53:29 PM
                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Winton Berkshire


                                                                                                                                                     As a lot of members know I have been building a new layout to go with my vintage collection. Since the major premise of this Yahoo site is to collect and RUN these vintage engines I have been taking items off my shelves to get them running after a long period of being dormant.  A lot of my vintage collection is left unpainted to show what they are made of. This is an engine I will be running on the layout that I painted and decaled.
                                                                                                                                                   This is a Winton Engineering 2-8-4 Berkshire made from 1950-1953. It was sold as a brass kit. It and a sister engine I have ( Winton 2-6-6-6 Allegheny which I left unpainted ) are very rare, hard to find and extremely hard to build. I bought this Berk in "basketcase shape" but with all parts there and a running motor. This engine is 100% as it came from the box. I must point out that Winton kits originally were marketed as having NO cast parts. They are not super detailed as a lot of items today. In fact I'm sure some people will cringe at things like the stamped brass side frames on the engines trailing truck and the tender.
                                                                                                                                                  This is suppose to be a copy of a C&O class K-4. The drive is unique. It is a coil spring / pulley drive systems that only works if the coil spring is put around the pulleys doubled as the plans show. Since this is painted it will run on my new platform (which is modeled for no specific railroad) as a permanent item.
                                                                                                                                                   Thought some members might like to see a truly vintage HO engine, rebuilt and put back in pristine condition and running again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                            __
                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9100 From: jim heckard Date: 3/23/2009
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Winton Berkshire
                                                                                                                                            Roger,
                                                                                                                                             Taking of the top of my head for now. There were no lost wax casting versions for the Winton Berkshire. The Winton Allegheny had two different owners but the engine stayed basically the same construction. Plans were drawn up slightly different and two different addresses.  After that there was a lost wax model sold using Winton design and sold under the Ma Ra name ( I think). Don't hold me to this 100%. I have to go back and check because my old mind slips a lot.
                                                                                                                                                 Someone sent me a very detailed description of this history and I have it in my notes. If important I will go back and check.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                            Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 3:09 PM
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton Berkshire

                                                                                                                                            Neat job Jim, were there later lost wax versions also? Roger Aultman

                                                                                                                                            As a lot of members know I have been building a new layout to go
                                                                                                                                            with my vintage collection. Since the major premise of this Yahoo site is to
                                                                                                                                            collect and RUN these vintage engines I have been taking items off my
                                                                                                                                            shelves to get them running after a long period of being dormant. A lot of
                                                                                                                                            my vintage collection is left unpainted to show what they are made of. This
                                                                                                                                            is an engine I will be running on the layout that I painted and decaled.
                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9101 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/23/2009
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: more inspiration
                                                                                                                                            Hi Jim
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                            Interesting Forney, looks great................:o)
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                            Gary W
                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                            Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                            From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                            Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 10:05:09 AM
                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] more inspiration

                                                                                                                                            Stephan Neubaum.
                                                                                                                                                      Since one of my freelance type projects motivated you to complete one of yours I thought I would add a little more inspiration. While I had sent pictures of this to the group before maybe this will help you. This a "fantasy" 2-4-4 Forney that I made from parts bought off Ebay a little while back. It is NOT a copy of any real engine. It was assembled from 4 main parts             Part one was a Mantua 0-4-0 frame with drivers (Seems like a lot of these used as a basis for a project). It had a metal  extension built  to elongate the frame. There was a Rivarossi motor (round type) at the back and a longer then normal drive shaft with worm gear  that was housed in a box with bearings on each end for support.  I added a front truck with ornate wheels for looks        Part two was a brass boiler (unknown maker) with a brass headlight and stack. The domes (one was missing) are plastic. I added a bell and handrails.       Part three was a hand made cab made of white plastic missing a roof which I added.       Part four was a section for holding coal that looked like it was a manufactured item that had been reworked. I added a removable coal load to get in at the hidden wiring from motor to back truck.
                                                                                                                                                     These main parts were not in the best of shape. I cleaned them up and did a little reworking to fit all together. I then repainted the engine. One mistake I didn't notice, and I wish had thought of before assembled, was the trailing  truck sits a little to far back under the coal load. It came that way with the truck bolster already mounted.  I should have moved it a 1/2" forward. This engine needs some serious radius curve to run on, but it does run nice. I think it looks pretty good for starting out as junk.
                                                                                                                                                    Again this is NOT a copy of any prototype. I assembled what I had to work with and this is the final project. I hope, since you are intending to build a Forney from parts, that you might get some ideas and a little more motivation to go for it.
                                                                                                                                                                                 Jim H (Not Mr. Heckard)
                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9102 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/23/2009
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Winton Berkshire
                                                                                                                                            Almost looks like it wants a 6-wheel trailing truck-  gj
                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                            Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 11:53 AM
                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Winton Berkshire

                                                                                                                                                     As a lot of members know I have been building a new layout to go with my vintage collection. Since the major premise of this Yahoo site is to collect and RUN these vintage engines I have been taking items off my shelves to get them running after a long period of being dormant.  A lot of my vintage collection is left unpainted to show what they are made of. This is an engine I will be running on the layout that I painted and decaled.
                                                                                                                                                   This is a Winton Engineering 2-8-4 Berkshire made from 1950-1953. It was sold as a brass kit. It and a sister engine I have ( Winton 2-6-6-6 Allegheny which I left unpainted ) are very rare, hard to find and extremely hard to build. I bought this Berk in "basketcase shape" but with all parts there and a running motor. This engine is 100% as it came from the box. I must point out that Winton kits originally were marketed as having NO cast parts. They are not super detailed as a lot of items today. In fact I'm sure some people will cringe at things like the stamped brass side frames on the engines trailing truck and the tender.
                                                                                                                                                  This is suppose to be a copy of a C&O class K-4. The drive is unique. It is a coil spring / pulley drive systems that only works if the coil spring is put around the pulleys doubled as the plans show. Since this is painted it will run on my new platform (which is modeled for no specific railroad) as a permanent item.
                                                                                                                                                   Thought some members might like to see a truly vintage HO engine, rebuilt and put back in pristine condition and running again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Jim H


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                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9103 From: jim heckard Date: 3/23/2009
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Winton Berkshire
                                                                                                                                             Chris,
                                                                                                                                                         Can't help much on interurban or trolleys. Isn't my area of collecting but hopefully others out there might ( Gerold E are you out there).   I have heard the name before, Locomotive Workshop, but thats about it. Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                            From: Chris B
                                                                                                                                            Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 3:35 PM
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton Berkshire

                                                                                                                                            Jim, nice finish and decaling.  There's a certain consistent style to the flat truck sideframes, ladders, rivets and bodies of the tender and the engine that's different from what we're used to, but it does feature a design based on
                                                                                                                                            sheet stock rather than casting, and that makes the fabrication process Winton used become part of the design. 
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                            We're all used to photo etched sheet stock parts on modern models now, but at one time that was brand new.
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                            I do have a question about a kit I just acquired on ebay. It's boxed as a Locomotive Workshop interurban car, and don't have it in my  hands yet, but it sure looks like early photo etching to me.
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                            Are you familiar with kits from this maker?  Can anyone offer any tips or hints. It's my first time hearing of them, but that doesn't mean anything.  Before assembling this kit to serve as the single remaining such car that operated as an RPO on the W&OD in the 40's, I'd like to think I could use the unassembled kit components to make flat templates. Then some day in the future I would use the templates for fabrication of similar brass sheet bodies for a dozen interurban cars I could use to backdate my layout to the early 30's. 


                                                                                                                                            Chris B.


                                                                                                                                            ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                            From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                            Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 2:53:29 PM
                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Winton Berkshire


                                                                                                                                                     As a lot of members know I have been building a new layout to go with my vintage collection. Since the major premise of this Yahoo site is to collect and RUN these vintage engines I have been taking items off my shelves to get them running after a long period of being dormant.  A lot of my vintage collection is left unpainted to show what they are made of. This is an engine I will be running on the layout that I painted and decaled.
                                                                                                                                                   This is a Winton Engineering 2-8-4 Berkshire made from 1950-1953. It was sold as a brass kit. It and a sister engine I have ( Winton 2-6-6-6 Allegheny which I left unpainted ) are very rare, ha rd to find and extremely hard to build. I bought this Berk in "basketcase shape" but with all parts there and a running motor. This engine is 100% as it came from the box. I must point out that Winton kits originally were marketed as having NO cast parts. They are not super detailed as a lot of items today. In fact I'm sure some people will cringe at things like the stamped brass side frames on the engines trailing truck and the tender.
                                                                                                                                                  This is suppose to be a copy of a C&O class K-4. The drive is unique. It is a coil spring / pulley drive systems that only works if the coil spring is put around the pulleys doubled as the plans show. Since this is painted it will run on my new platform (which is modeled for no specific railroad) as a permanent item.
                                                                                                                                                   Thought some members might like to see a truly vintage HO engine, rebuilt and put back in pristine condition and running again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                            __
                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9104 From: jim heckard Date: 3/23/2009
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Winton Berkshire
                                                                                                                                            Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                  Have heard of the name but can't help with much more. Interurban and trollies not my areas. Hope others out there might know. ( Gerold E are you out there. This is your area.). Sounds like a good plan to make copies.
                                                                                                                                                 Sorry I can't help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                            From: Chris B
                                                                                                                                            Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 3:35 PM
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton Berkshire

                                                                                                                                            Jim, nice finish and decaling.  There's a certain consistent style to the flat truck sideframes, ladders, rivets and bodies of the tender and the engine that's different from what we're used to, but it does feature a design based on
                                                                                                                                            sheet stock rather than casting, and that makes the fabrication process Winton used become part of the design. 
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                            We're all used to photo etched sheet stock parts on modern models now, but at one time that was brand new.
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                            I do have a question about a kit I just acquired on ebay. It's boxed as a Locomotive Workshop interurban car, and don't have it in my  hands yet, but it sure looks like early photo etching to me.
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                            Are you familiar with kits from this maker?  Can anyone offer any tips or hints. It's my first time hearing of them, but that doesn't mean anything.  Before assembling this kit to serve as the single remaining such car that operated as an RPO on the W&OD in the 40's, I'd like to think I could use the unassembled kit components to make flat templates. Then some day in the future I would use the templates for fabrication of similar brass sheet bodies for a dozen interurban cars I could use to backdate my layout to the early 30's. 


                                                                                                                                            Chris B.


                                                                                                                                            ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                            From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                            Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 2:53:29 PM
                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Winton Berkshire


                                                                                                                                                     As a lot of members know I have been building a new layout to go with my vintage collection. Since the major premise of this Yahoo site is to collect and RUN these vintage engines I have been taking items off my shelves to get them running after a long period of being dormant.  A lot of my vintage collection is left unpainted to show what they are made of. This is an engine I will be running on the layout that I painted and decaled.
                                                                                                                                                   This is a Winton Engineering 2-8-4 Berkshire made from 1950-1953. It was sold as a brass kit. It and a sister engine I have ( Winton 2-6-6-6 Allegheny which I left unpainted ) are very rare, ha rd to find and extremely hard to build. I bought this Berk in "basketcase shape" but with all parts there and a running motor. This engine is 100% as it came from the box. I must point out that Winton kits originally were marketed as having NO cast parts. They are not super detailed as a lot of items today. In fact I'm sure some people will cringe at things like the stamped brass side frames on the engines trailing truck and the tender.
                                                                                                                                                  This is suppose to be a copy of a C&O class K-4. The drive is unique. It is a coil spring / pulley drive systems that only works if the coil spring is put around the pulleys doubled as the plans show. Since this is painted it will run on my new platform (which is modeled for no specific railroad) as a permanent item.
                                                                                                                                                   Thought some members might like to see a truly vintage HO engine, rebuilt and put back in pristine condition and running again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                            __
                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9105 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/23/2009
                                                                                                                                            Subject: Locomotive Workshop
                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                              Chris B wrote:
                                                                                                                                              Jim, nice finish and decaling.  There's a certain consistent style to the flat truck sideframes, ladders, rivets and bodies of the tender and the engine that's different from what we're used to, but it does feature a design based on
                                                                                                                                              sheet stock rather than casting, and that makes the fabrication process Winton used become part of the design. 
                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                              We're all used to photo etched sheet stock parts on modern models now, but at one time that was brand new.
                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                              I do have a question about a kit I just acquired on ebay. It's boxed as a Locomotive Workshop interurban car, and don't have it in my  hands yet, but it sure looks like early photo etching to me.
                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                              Are you familiar with kits from this maker?  Can anyone offer any tips or hints. It's my first time hearing of them, but that doesn't mean anything.  Before assembling this kit to serve as the single remaining such car that operated as an RPO on the W&OD in the 40's, I'd like to think I could use the unassembled kit components to make flat templates. Then some day in the future I would use the templates for fabrication of similar brass sheet bodies for a dozen interurban cars I could use to backdate my layout to the early 30's. 


                                                                                                                                              Chris B.
                                                                                                                                              Hi Chris,

                                                                                                                                              have several Locvomotive workshop kits , and ads scanned from old magazines. You will be amazed what variety of kits they have offered... will have to dig in my files for more info and pictures. Would also be interested in more background.
                                                                                                                                              More in the next days, its midnight here and I am bone tired...

                                                                                                                                              Gerold
                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9106 From: Chris B Date: 3/23/2009
                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                Gerold E wrote...

                                                                                                                                                ---------
                                                                                                                                                Hi Chris,

                                                                                                                                                have several Locvomotive workshop kits , and ads scanned from old magazines. You will be amazed what variety of kits they have offered... will have to dig in my files for more info and pictures. Would also be interested in more background.
                                                                                                                                                More in the next days, its midnight here and I am bone tired...

                                                                                                                                                Gerold
                                                                                                                                                =============

                                                                                                                                                Thanks Gerold, two of the ads listed this kit, and one illustrated it.  I attached the illustration from that ad and a few photos of the kit laid out.  The ads confirm and the kit appears to be photo etched.  I wanted to try home etching at some point, duplicating this pattern might be a fine project some day. 
                                                                                                                                                I'd be glad to learn anything else you can tell me about the kit or the maker,
                                                                                                                                                thanks again,
                                                                                                                                                Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 9107 From: jim heckard Date: 3/23/2009
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
                                                                                                                                                     Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                     I thought that Gerold E would be one of the people who could help you. He has a very good knowledge about interurban and trolley cars (plus other things). I not sure if you know he lives in Austria so there could be delay in answers because of time differences. Glad he could help you and I'm sure others can too. As for me I will sit back, read and learn new things,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                From: Chris B
                                                                                                                                                Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 9:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop

                                                                                                                                                Gerold E wrote...

                                                                                                                                                ---------
                                                                                                                                                Hi Chris,

                                                                                                                                                have several Locvomotive workshop kits , and ads scanned from old magazines. You will be amazed what variety of kits they have offered... will have to dig in my files for more info and pictures. Would also be interested in more background.
                                                                                                                                                More in the next days, its midnight here and I am bone tired...

                                                                                                                                                Gerold
                                                                                                                                                ============ =

                                                                                                                                                Thanks Gerold, two of the ads listed this kit, and one illustrated it.  I attached the illustration from that ad and a few photos of the kit laid out.  The ads confirm and the kit appears to be photo etched.  I wanted to try home etching at some point, duplicating this pattern might be a fine project some day. 
                                                                                                                                                I'd be glad to learn anything else you can tell me about the kit or the maker,
                                                                                                                                                thanks again,
                                                                                                                                                Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 9108 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/23/2009
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
                                                                                                                                                My experience with LAWS has been in O Scale.  Odd items, not always the best quality, but often made a good start.  gj
                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 7:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop

                                                                                                                                                     Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                     I thought that Gerold E would be one of the people who could help you. He has a very good knowledge about interurban and trolley cars (plus other things). I not sure if you know he lives in Austria so there could be delay in answers because of time differences. Glad he could help you and I'm sure others can too. As for me I will sit back, read and learn new things,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                From: Chris B
                                                                                                                                                Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 9:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop

                                                                                                                                                Gerold E wrote...

                                                                                                                                                ---------
                                                                                                                                                Hi Chris,

                                                                                                                                                have several Locvomotive workshop kits , and ads scanned from old magazines. You will be amazed what variety of kits they have offered... will have to dig in my files for more info and pictures. Would also be interested in more background.
                                                                                                                                                More in the next days, its midnight here and I am bone tired...

                                                                                                                                                Gerold
                                                                                                                                                ============ =

                                                                                                                                                Thanks Gerold, two of the ads listed this kit, and one illustrated it.  I attached the illustration from that ad and a few photos of the kit laid out.  The ads confirm and the kit appears to be photo etched.  I wanted to try home etching at some point, duplicating this pattern might be a fine project some day. 
                                                                                                                                                I'd be glad to learn anything else you can tell me about the kit or the maker,
                                                                                                                                                thanks again,
                                                                                                                                                Chris B.


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                                                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 9109 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/23/2009
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Bill Schopp's PRR E-44 Electric Locomotive Brass Kit

                                                                                                                                                Hi All,

                                                                                                                                                One of the first items I searched for today was information on the etched flat brass body and frame kits for Pennsylvania's E-44 Electric Locomotives. In a six page lead article in the December 1961 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman, Schopp showed how to build the locomotive from his own kit! 

                                                                                                                                                He powered it with an Andeco mechanism.  The kits themselves were advertised in a seperate ad in the back pages of the magazine, and sold for $15.00, "U-cut-out & solder together" it said.

                                                                                                                                                Anyone else have one of these kits?  Ever assemble it?  Does anyone know how many were manufcatured and who did the etching, perhaps Jan Lorenzen? 

                                                                                                                                                Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 9110 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/23/2009
                                                                                                                                                Subject: I Found a Walthers Cast Bronze High Hood Switcher!
                                                                                                                                                Hi Don D.(Moderator) and All:

                                                                                                                                                By way of introduction as a new member today, I'd like take a few paragraphs to tell a little about my interest in vintage HO scale modeling and what model actually began my adventures in our corner of the HO world.

                                                                                                                                                What makes one become a vintage HO modeler/operator/collector? Does it mean holding on to models you built two or three decades ago? Most life long model railroaders would fit that category, and their models would be called vintage, same as the AARP classifies their owners like me as vintage, too. But I'm not sure that alone would make them a Vintage HO Scale Modeler!

                                                                                                                                                My first steam engine as a young teen was a Penn Line H-9, I built kits from Ambroid and Quality Craft, even bought a Red Ball Bordens milk tank car kit and Red Ball catalog (with John Anderson artwork)from HO pioneer Howell Day. In the early 1980's I bought a couple of those lead Alco Flat Front High Hood switcher casting sets from Walthers, soldered one together, rounded all the edges and mounted that "lead brick" on an Athearn switcher chassis. All that still did not make me anything else but an active modeler building and operating currently available kits.

                                                                                                                                                In the mid 1980's I began attending some of the many train shows in the NY Metro area, and started to pick up the out of production items that I missed at my local hobby shop. But nothing out of the ordinary, until a few years later when a vendor had a few older Penn Line locomotives on his table with a small grimy switcher. It looked a little like my Walthers cast lead High Hoods, but was a bit different, narrower hood, more to scale; a heavy casting, but not lead.

                                                                                                                                                It was missing three sideframes and while it had a motor inside, who knew the condition. Worse yet, someone had tried to pry off the thick hood top casting from the cab end, without removing the front screws, with the result that the thick top casting was bent permanently upward about 1/4". Still it was interesting, but for $25 and with a seller reluctant to deal, I put it down and walked away.

                                                                                                                                                But on my way out, I went to look at it again, thinking when am I going to see another? Besides, it would look great with DL&W- "Lackawanna" decals along the sides as they were one of the few roads with most of the actual flat-front High Hoods, one of the roads I actively modeled. More suprising, the tableholder now agreed to 10% off. I had become a vintage HO guy with a beautiful little switcher!

                                                                                                                                                It took a few years before I confirmed this was a very early cast bronze Walthers circa 1939-1940 model, and a few more before I found a correct pair of sideframes for the power truck, with home made third rail shoe strip soldered to them. A eBayer threw that in "instead of throwing it away, as an extra since I bought that other old junk." LOL! Using my Red Ball catalog, I started looking for other Red Ball kits and found a few, then started noticing more.

                                                                                                                                                I started a collection of vintage Erie and Lackawanna kits, never thought there would be so many! Athearn Metal, Ulrich, Hobbyline, Varney, Globe, Railmaster....there was no turning back! I have to credit Hal Carstens for continually calling to attention the old great names in HO for all the decades I read him since the early 1960's, too. The stories of the people behind the models is interesting as well (I noticed Vince Waterman's son is here!)

                                                                                                                                                Today, besides my vintage HO modeling, I am an active model railroader, buying new models as well, focusing on my favorite roads DL&W/Erie/EL and NYS&W including commuter operations, along with a bit of neighboring northwest Jersey roads: Lehigh & New England, Lehigh & Hudson River and CNJ, with a spot of PRR/PC in rural West Jersey and the PRR Main Line electric operations. That last bit combines nicely with finding those very cool Trackside Specialties models that I first saw as a teen circa 1966, and the Internationals as well. (If that were not enough, I also have an active interest in NYC Subway modeling.)

                                                                                                                                                One final note: A vintage traction manufacturer, Vane Jones of the Indianapolis Car Company used to print a motto in his publication:

                                                                                                                                                "Information, unless shared, is useless."

                                                                                                                                                From what I have seen in the photo albums and read on many posts here that I read for the past several hours, I can see that motto is practiced here. I look forward to being able to contributing my share.

                                                                                                                                                Jay W.




                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > Hi Jim, Yes, this engine was produced pre-War. It was cataloged as -- # 6410
                                                                                                                                                > "Diesel Switching Locomotive -- ALCO Type," and its indicated that the kit
                                                                                                                                                > came complete with the same standard self-contained motor (power) truck that
                                                                                                                                                > came with the # 5650 Gas Electric Car, but of course being pre-War, it was rated
                                                                                                                                                > for 6 to 8 volts. The only thing that's not clear is which motor unit they
                                                                                                                                                > used with this switcher -- there were two Power Units -- # U239 (13:1 gear
                                                                                                                                                > ratio) and # U240 (6:1 gear ratio) -- unless you had you choice. My 1939 catalog
                                                                                                                                                > has it listed at $13.00 for the kit. It was also offered factory assembled at
                                                                                                                                                > $20.00. You may have an early 1939 catalog if yours says $15.00 for the kit,
                                                                                                                                                > and if so, then it looks like they reduced the price. The 1940 catalog also
                                                                                                                                                > lists it for $13.00, but it jumped to $15.00 in 1941
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > I noticed you stated that your switcher's body is heavy lead, which is most
                                                                                                                                                > curious, unless your body is a left-over from 1941. Up until 1941, the pre-War
                                                                                                                                                > switchers are described as having a cab consisting of five bronze castings.
                                                                                                                                                > The 1941 catalog describes this switcher as -- "Body is now completely
                                                                                                                                                > die-cast and comes assembled in kit." Yet, in Walthers' 1946 catalog, this switcher
                                                                                                                                                > is again described as having its cab consisting of five die-castings which are
                                                                                                                                                > now factory assembled. The finished (factory assembled) locomotive now jumped
                                                                                                                                                > to $30.00. BTW, the five-piece bronze cab castings kit (# 6411) sold for
                                                                                                                                                > $3.25 pre-War and $3.50 post-War.
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > By 1948, this kit "jumped" from the 1946 price of $19.00 to $19.60, and
                                                                                                                                                > stayed at that price through 1950. For those modeling with this engine at that
                                                                                                                                                > time, it was indicated that this loco was in regular service on the AT&SF, IC,
                                                                                                                                                > LV, C&NW, MILW, B&O and others.
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > The post-War catalogs still say that this unit is powered by the popular
                                                                                                                                                > motor truck that is found with their gas-electric. There's only one Power Unit
                                                                                                                                                > cataloged from 1946 on, # U240, which is decribed as having been recently
                                                                                                                                                > redesigned "to eliminate all possible bugs." They had to have converted it to 12
                                                                                                                                                > volt.
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > Just wanted to mention that the # 6611 single truck (4-wheel) Birney trolley
                                                                                                                                                > ("Street") car is described as being a Public Service Company design. Public
                                                                                                                                                > Service was a New Jersey transportation company. Looking forward to seeing
                                                                                                                                                > yours. These also were produced both pre-War and post-War. Best, Ray
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > </HTML>
                                                                                                                                                >


                                                                                                                                                Are you sure you want to send this message?
                                                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 9111 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
                                                                                                                                                Back in the 70s and 80s I bought several kits from Locomotive Workshop. Some were in O and some in HO. The owner was a pioneer of sorts with Computer Aided milling and created driver centers and frames from milling. As Jim noted, they weren't always the best in terms of detail, but everything I got from him worked. The problem was sometimes the proportions and scaling of the particular model (I have 'memories' of his version of the Waynesburg & Washington 2-6-0 in On3 -- ran well but didn't exactly look like the prototype!)

                                                                                                                                                Towards the end he bought several collections of old O scale castings and parts from other manufacturers and put out several "re-issue" kits including a Lobaugh Climax. I bought one of those but never built it.

                                                                                                                                                Matt Coleman


                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                > My experience with LAWS has been in O Scale. Odd items, not always the best quality, but often made a good start. gj
                                                                                                                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                > From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                > Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 7:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop
                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                Group: vintageHO Message: 9112 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks Gerold, two of the ads listed this kit, and one illustrated it.  I attached the illustration from that ad and a few photos of the kit laid out.  The ads confirm and the kit appears to be photo etched.  I wanted to try home etching at some point, duplicating this pattern might be a fine project some day.  
I'd be glad to learn anything else you can tell me about the kit or the maker, 
thanks again, 
Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chris,

                                                                                                                                                  I am quite sure I know the name of H.Jaffe, Brooklyn... seems I have another trolley kit with his name on the box... not sure which kit but may find it somewhere.
                                                                                                                                                  another ad I have found in my files shows a Veranda Gas Turbine kit.... I wonder if this ever was actually produced??

                                                                                                                                                  and , a text excerpt my friend Ed Havens from Tucson sent me  - this is an answer to his enquiry about a Peter Witt... sender is Jan Lorenzen, the son of the the owner of Locomotive Workshop   ( BTW, I rememberto have found the company refered to as "Model Trolley Locomotive Workshop")
                                                                                                                                                  > Yes, this was one of our kits, they originally were from HO Model RR &
> Supply who did many Cleveland area traction kits in etched brass.  We
> sold off the line to Earl Mast in 1973 before we moved back to NJ.  Jim
> Richards has recently uncovered a load of the etch masters that were
> thought to have been lost.  You see a number of those O and HO etched
> kits around at shows.  They are kind of hard to make, just the amount of
> filing is daunting, not to mention the soldering. We did issue some kits
> on our own designs.  I just picked up a LW Brooklyn Peter Witt that my
> younger brother and I were tasked with casting in pewter out of the
> shop's cast iron stove - 35+ years ago!  The castings are kind of crude,
> but with a bit of JB Weld and primer/filler it would turn out to be nice
> model.
> 
> I have an O scale 4000 series Peter Witt that my dad gave me in 1973 to
> see what I'd do with and I've just now started on it again.  I found a
> 5000 artic in the shop that is missing some parts, but I'm getting good
> at brass fabrication now and can do etching master drawing, so that
> might end up getting built.  I hear SPTC is being asked to make these,
> but are there really enough Cleveland trolley guys left to justify a
> production run $550 model, much less finding people willing to pay that
> much for one.
> 
> The only Birneys we made were pewter repops of the Adams and Son
> castings, plus a few spliced double truckers. I don't know if we'd be
> able to do that today if somebody laid claim to the intellectual
> property of Adams and Son. Walthers made a cast HO birney, and there was
> at least one brass import (Suydam?)that was a real good one.  My dad was
> working on O brass cast version with new masters shortly before he
> passed, I have the side master and the truck master.  The only thing
> that came of it was me making two sets of 42" narrow gauge power trucks
> for a Los Angeles customer.

                                                                                                                                                  Have also attached pictures of two box motors from my collection... they are superbly built, unfortunately I have to admit that I receiuved them built up so some unknown modeler deserves the praise....

                                                                                                                                                  more to come. Have just dug out the Cleveland Peter Witt kit, and the Articulated... will scan the instructions  in the evening.

                                                                                                                                                  At this point, I would like to add a little PR for Larrys  www.hoseeker.net  website - he surely would be glad to add a scan of your instruction sheet to his site.

                                                                                                                                                  Gerold
                                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9113 From: Chris B Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
                                                                                                                                                  Gerold, thanks for an encyclopedic reply, including the passed along response.  This is why this site is so useful and enlightening.  Your photo of your kit makes the filing I'll have to do seem less daunting. 

                                                                                                                                                  Thanks to Larry too.  I pored over hoseeker.net for years before I knew this group existed, it's most of why I didn't feel completely ignorant when I started lurking here.
                                                                                                                                                  I do have a few other metal kits with clean instruction sheets that might also be worthy of sending in,  they're not at all rare, but they aren't on the site as far as I know, e.g., Ivers 70 ton switcher body kit, Binkley caboose, Mew 44 ton switcher.

                                                                                                                                                  One of the many benefits of this site is when you find an old item you've never seen that looks perfect for kitbashing, and you realize you should check first before you start cutting.

                                                                                                                                                  I picked up an AF prewar diecast RPO baggage car shell for just that purpose for $1, before I knew anything about AF HO.  Fortunately I asked here, and looked here and there, and while it's not valuable, it does seem to be a third AF HO diecast  passenger shell, that matches the fairly common coach and combine units.  So far I haven't found any paper documentation or photos of another unit anywhere, but also have dropped any plans to cut it up.. 
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                  Thanks again to all,
                                                                                                                                                  this site is fun every day.
                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.



                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chris,

                                                                                                                                                  I am quite sure I know the name of H.Jaffe, Brooklyn... seems I have another trolley kit with his name on the box... not sure which kit but may find it somewhere.
                                                                                                                                                  another ad I have found in my files shows a Veranda Gas Turbine kit.... I wonder if this ever was actually produced??

                                                                                                                                                  <snip>
                                                                                                                                                  Have also attached pictures of two box motors from my collection.. . they are superbly built, unfortunately I have to admit that I receiuved them built up so some unknown modeler deserves the praise....

                                                                                                                                                  more to come. Have just dug out the Cleveland Peter Witt kit, and the Articulated. .. will scan the instructions  in the evening.

                                                                                                                                                  At this point, I would like to add a little PR for Larrys  www.hoseeker. net  website - he surely would be glad to add a scan of your instruction sheet to his site.

                                                                                                                                                  Gerold
                                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9114 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
                                                                                                                                                  I forgot to mention that Locomotive Workshop used to put out a newsletter about four times a year. I used to have 10 years worth of those but am not sure if I have them any more and if I do, where they are. They were a wealth of information but not always easy to read.

                                                                                                                                                  Matt (replying to his own reply.)

                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > Back in the 70s and 80s I bought several kits from Locomotive Workshop. Some were in O and some in HO. The owner was a pioneer of sorts with Computer Aided milling and created driver centers and frames from milling. As Jim noted, they weren't always the best in terms of detail, but everything I got from him worked. The problem was sometimes the proportions and scaling of the particular model (I have 'memories' of his version of the Waynesburg & Washington 2-6-0 in On3 -- ran well but didn't exactly look like the prototype!)
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > Towards the end he bought several collections of old O scale castings and parts from other manufacturers and put out several "re-issue" kits including a Lobaugh Climax. I bought one of those but never built it.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > Matt Coleman
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  > > My experience with LAWS has been in O Scale. Odd items, not always the best quality, but often made a good start. gj
                                                                                                                                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                  > > From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                  > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                  > > Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 7:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                  > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9115 From: Earl Poulsen Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Need Athearn F-unit truck frame
                                                                                                                                                  I want to thnak everyone who had suggestions into getting an Athearn F7 truck frame. I am purchasing a truck frame from someone from this list. I am finding that I need to stock on parts on old Athearn locomotives. I have eight of these gems.

                                                                                                                                                  Earl Poulsen
                                                                                                                                                  Vancouver, WA

                                                                                                                                                  LAT 45 degrees, 40 minutes, 6 seconds X LONG Minus 122 degrees, 39 minutes and 46 seconds
                                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9116 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
                                                                                                                                                  Hi Matt C, Gerold E, Chris B and Jim Waterman (and All),

                                                                                                                                                  I did not think I'd have the opportunity to tell this story so soon, and was going to use it in an article, but I'll give it up now, so here goes:

                                                                                                                                                  "A few years ago, I was surprised to discover that Jan Lorenzen of The Locomotive Workship (and inductee to the O Scale Hall of Fame in 2005)was associated with the production of the Trackside Specialties HO scale PRR Boxcabs of the 1960's for Vincent Waterman (himself an inductee to the O Scale Hall of fame in 2004)!"

                                                                                                                                                  "I met Jan Lorenzen at a New York Society of Model Engineers (NYSME) swap meet a couple of years before his untimely passing and here is how I discovered that interesting vintage HO connection. A friend and I had been admiring The Locomotive Workshp tables and my friend had spotted a modified Penn Line Locomotive in the midst of the impressive O scale kits. He asked me why Penn Line went out of business, and I gave him a brief reply."

                                                                                                                                                  "The boothholder then stepped in and said these amazing words, "I attended the Penn Line Bankruptcy Sale!" As I struggled to comprehend the impact of those words, my mind slammed into gear, thinking who else was there and immediately asked, "Do you know Vincent Waterman?" (I had been already looking for Mr. Waterman for a couple of years, trying to track down information on those wonderful PRR Boxcabs I had first seen as a young teen in the mid-1960's at a show sponsored by the Metropolitan Council of Model Railroads in a church basement in Parsippany, NJ around 1966.)"

                                                                                                                                                  "Tables turned, Mr. Lorenzen was rocked a bit by my unanticipated response to his mention of the bankruptsy sale, and he asked, "Why do you want to know?" So I told him what an impression those models has on me almost thirty years before, and how I had finally purchased a Trackside B-1 "rat" on eBay out of Texas, and was trying to track down Vince Watterman to find out more about the history of the models."

                                                                                                                                                  "At that point, a broad smile creased Mr. Lorenzen's face, as he told us, "I worked alongside Vincent Waterman to produce those models!" I could not believe what I was hearing, but spent the next few minutes discussing some of my all-time favorite models. He said he thought he had some production figures back at his shop and we exchanged email addresses."

                                                                                                                                                  "He then paused and smiled again and said, "I think I have one of those B-1 assembled bodies still back at the shop, if you are interested I'll check and let you know." Interested? It was all I could do to stop from following him down to his South Jersy shop in Englistown immeditely at the close of the show!"

                                                                                                                                                  "And true to his word, he emailed me some information and that he had indeed found the last B-1 body (no extra parts, though) and quoted me a most reasonable, I think almost vintage price."

                                                                                                                                                  "A few days later, the mint brass shell was in my hands. I raced down to my shop where I grabbed an old spare powered half of a Penn Line GG-1 and my other Trackside B-1, measured carefully and hacksawed off the excess frame, taking care to not file off all of the saw marks, just like my Trackside original, and mounted it on a temporaray brass sheet frame, along with the assembled shell. Wow!"

                                                                                                                                                  "I was invited to visit his shop, but around that time, I became sole caregiver to a parent in their final years, so had to decline. But I enjoyed being on his mailing list, and after my family duties were over, got back to visiting the train shows and heard at my first show in Pennsylvania that Mr. Lorenzen had died, so that connection was broken. I later learned that Vince Waterman, Jim's father, had also passed away and I never met him."
                                                                                                                                                  (c) 2009 W. Jay Wanczyk

                                                                                                                                                  Upon first joinging this group yesterday, I saw Vince's son Jim's albums and also read some of the Trackside Specialties posts, happy to find that I'm not the only one who appreciates those neat Trackside models and one of the few All-American entries into the history of Brass HO and the "Brown Book."

                                                                                                                                                  Perhaps Jim can tell us a bit more of the association between his dad and Jan Lorenzen.

                                                                                                                                                  Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                  Ps. Discoveries like mine and chance meetings rarely happen, but when they do, are a remarkable and most rewarding part of our hobby, and can help fill in the gaps in our history and knowledge. I'm on the trail of another right now...!












                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > I forgot to mention that Locomotive Workshop used to put out a newsletter about four times a year. I used to have 10 years worth of those but am not sure if I have them any more and if I do, where they are. They were a wealth of information but not always easy to read.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > Matt (replying to his own reply.)
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  > > Back in the 70s and 80s I bought several kits from Locomotive Workshop. Some were in O and some in HO. The owner was a pioneer of sorts with Computer Aided milling and created driver centers and frames from milling. As Jim noted, they weren't always the best in terms of detail, but everything I got from him worked. The problem was sometimes the proportions and scaling of the particular model (I have 'memories' of his version of the Waynesburg & Washington 2-6-0 in On3 -- ran well but didn't exactly look like the prototype!)
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  > > Towards the end he bought several collections of old O scale castings and parts from other manufacturers and put out several "re-issue" kits including a Lobaugh Climax. I bought one of those but never built it.
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  > > Matt Coleman
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                  > > > My experience with LAWS has been in O Scale. Odd items, not always the best quality, but often made a good start. gj
                                                                                                                                                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                  > > > From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                  > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                  > > > Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 7:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                  > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop
                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9117 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Winton Berkshire
                                                                                                                                                  Jim
                                                                                                                                                  Don't care 'bout the stamped  sideframes on the trailing truck,, it is just a great looking Engine, nice job.
                                                                                                                                                  Charlie W.

                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                  From: "jim heckard"
                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Winton Berkshire
                                                                                                                                                  Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 14:53:29 -0400

                                                                                                                                                           As a lot of members know I have been building a new layout to go with my vintage collection. Since the major premise of this Yahoo site is to collect and RUN these vintage engines I have been taking items off my shelves to get them running after a long period of being dormant.  A lot of my vintage collection is left unpainted to show what they are made of. This is an engine I will be running on the layout that I painted and decaled.
                                                                                                                                                         This is a Winton Engineering 2-8-4 Berkshire made from 1950-1953. It was sold as a brass kit. It and a sister engine I have ( Winton 2-6-6-6 Allegheny which I left unpainted ) are very rare, hard to find and extremely hard to build. I bought this Berk in "basketcase shape" but with all parts there and a running motor. This engine is 100% as it came from the box. I must point out that Winton kits originally were marketed as having NO cast parts. They are not super detailed as a lot of items today. In fact I'm sure some people will cringe at things like the stamped brass side frames on the engines trailing truck and the tender.
                                                                                                                                                        This is suppose to be a copy of a C&O class K-4. The drive is unique. It is a coil spring / pulley drive systems that only works if the coil spring is put around the pulleys doubled as the plans show. Since this is painted it will run on my new platform (which is modeled for no specific railroad) as a permanent item.
                                                                                                                                                         Thought some members might like to see a truly vintage HO engine, rebuilt and put back in pristine condition and running again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Jim H
                                                                                                                                                  << IMG_2970_1.JPG >>
                                                                                                                                                  << IMG_2973_2.JPG >>

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                                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9118 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: I Found a Walthers Cast Bronze High Hood Switcher!
                                                                                                                                                  Jay
                                                                                                                                                  Let me welcome you and say it was a very intresting story of your trip into Vintage HO. I enjoyed it very much.
                                                                                                                                                  Charlie W
                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                  > From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [vintageHO] I Found a Walthers Cast Bronze High Hood Switcher!
                                                                                                                                                  > Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 02:44:17 -0000
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Don D.(Moderator) and All:
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > By way of introduction as a new member today, I'd like take a few
                                                                                                                                                  > paragraphs to tell a little about my interest in vintage HO scale
                                                                                                                                                  > modeling and what model actually began my adventures in our corner
                                                                                                                                                  > of the HO world.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > What makes one become a vintage HO modeler/operator/collector?
                                                                                                                                                  > Does it mean holding on to models you built two or three decades
                                                                                                                                                  > ago? Most life long model railroaders would fit that category, and
                                                                                                                                                  > their models would be called vintage, same as the AARP classifies
                                                                                                                                                  > their owners like me as vintage, too. But I'm not sure that alone
                                                                                                                                                  > would make them a Vintage HO Scale Modeler!
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > My first steam engine as a young teen was a Penn Line H-9, I built
                                                                                                                                                  > kits from Ambroid and Quality Craft, even bought a Red Ball Bordens
                                                                                                                                                  > milk tank car kit and Red Ball catalog (with John Anderson
                                                                                                                                                  > artwork)from HO pioneer Howell Day. In the early 1980's I bought a
                                                                                                                                                  > couple of those lead Alco Flat Front High Hood switcher casting
                                                                                                                                                  > sets from Walthers, soldered one together, rounded all the edges
                                                                                                                                                  > and mounted that "lead brick" on an Athearn switcher chassis. All
                                                                                                                                                  > that still did not make me anything else but an active modeler
                                                                                                                                                  > building and operating currently available kits.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > In the mid 1980's I began attending some of the many train shows in
                                                                                                                                                  > the NY Metro area, and started to pick up the out of production
                                                                                                                                                  > items that I missed at my local hobby shop. But nothing out of the
                                                                                                                                                  > ordinary, until a few years later when a vendor had a few older
                                                                                                                                                  > Penn Line locomotives on his table with a small grimy switcher. It
                                                                                                                                                  > looked a little like my Walthers cast lead High Hoods, but was a
                                                                                                                                                  > bit different, narrower hood, more to scale; a heavy casting, but
                                                                                                                                                  > not lead.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > It was missing three sideframes and while it had a motor inside,
                                                                                                                                                  > who knew the condition. Worse yet, someone had tried to pry off
                                                                                                                                                  > the thick hood top casting from the cab end, without removing the
                                                                                                                                                  > front screws, with the result that the thick top casting was bent
                                                                                                                                                  > permanently upward about 1/4". Still it was interesting, but for
                                                                                                                                                  > $25 and with a seller reluctant to deal, I put it down and walked
                                                                                                                                                  > away.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > But on my way out, I went to look at it again, thinking when am I
                                                                                                                                                  > going to see another? Besides, it would look great with DL&W-
                                                                                                                                                  > "Lackawanna" decals along the sides as they were one of the few
                                                                                                                                                  > roads with most of the actual flat-front High Hoods, one of the
                                                                                                                                                  > roads I actively modeled. More suprising, the tableholder now
                                                                                                                                                  > agreed to 10% off. I had become a vintage HO guy with a beautiful
                                                                                                                                                  > little switcher!
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > It took a few years before I confirmed this was a very early cast
                                                                                                                                                  > bronze Walthers circa 1939-1940 model, and a few more before I
                                                                                                                                                  > found a correct pair of sideframes for the power truck, with home
                                                                                                                                                  > made third rail shoe strip soldered to them. A eBayer threw that in
                                                                                                                                                  > "instead of throwing it away, as an extra since I bought that other
                                                                                                                                                  > old junk." LOL! Using my Red Ball catalog, I started looking for
                                                                                                                                                  > other Red Ball kits and found a few, then started noticing more.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > I started a collection of vintage Erie and Lackawanna kits, never
                                                                                                                                                  > thought there would be so many! Athearn Metal, Ulrich, Hobbyline,
                                                                                                                                                  > Varney, Globe, Railmaster....there was no turning back! I have to
                                                                                                                                                  > credit Hal Carstens for continually calling to attention the old
                                                                                                                                                  > great names in HO for all the decades I read him since the early
                                                                                                                                                  > 1960's, too. The stories of the people behind the models is
                                                                                                                                                  > interesting as well (I noticed Vince Waterman's son is here!)
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > Today, besides my vintage HO modeling, I am an active model
                                                                                                                                                  > railroader, buying new models as well, focusing on my favorite
                                                                                                                                                  > roads DL&W/Erie/EL and NYS&W including commuter operations, along
                                                                                                                                                  > with a bit of neighboring northwest Jersey roads: Lehigh & New
                                                                                                                                                  > England, Lehigh & Hudson River and CNJ, with a spot of PRR/PC in
                                                                                                                                                  > rural West Jersey and the PRR Main Line electric operations. That
                                                                                                                                                  > last bit combines nicely with finding those very cool Trackside
                                                                                                                                                  > Specialties models that I first saw as a teen circa 1966, and the
                                                                                                                                                  > Internationals as well. (If that were not enough, I also have an
                                                                                                                                                  > active interest in NYC Subway modeling.)
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > One final note: A vintage traction manufacturer, Vane Jones of the
                                                                                                                                                  > Indianapolis Car Company used to print a motto in his publication:
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > "Information, unless shared, is useless."
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > From what I have seen in the photo albums and read on many posts
                                                                                                                                                  > here that I read for the past several hours, I can see that motto
                                                                                                                                                  > is practiced here. I look forward to being able to contributing my
                                                                                                                                                  > share.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  > > Hi Jim, Yes, this engine was produced pre-War. It was cataloged
                                                                                                                                                  > > as -- # 6410 "Diesel Switching Locomotive -- ALCO Type," and its
                                                                                                                                                  > > indicated that the kit came complete with the same standard
                                                                                                                                                  > > self-contained motor (power) truck that came with the # 5650 Gas
                                                                                                                                                  > > Electric Car, but of course being pre-War, it was rated for 6 to
                                                                                                                                                  > > 8 volts. The only thing that's not clear is which motor unit
                                                                                                                                                  > > they used with this switcher -- there were two Power Units -- #
                                                                                                                                                  > > U239 (13:1 gear ratio) and # U240 (6:1 gear ratio) -- unless you
                                                                                                                                                  > > had you choice. My 1939 catalog has it listed at $13.00 for the
                                                                                                                                                  > > kit. It was also offered factory assembled at $20.00. You may
                                                                                                                                                  > > have an early 1939 catalog if yours says $15.00 for the kit, and
                                                                                                                                                  > > if so, then it looks like they reduced the price. The 1940
                                                                                                                                                  > > catalog also lists it for $13.00, but it jumped to $15.00 in 1941
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  > > I noticed you stated that your switcher's body is heavy lead,
                                                                                                                                                  > > which is most curious, unless your body is a left-over from 1941.
                                                                                                                                                  > > Up until 1941, the pre-War switchers are described as having a
                                                                                                                                                  > > cab consisting of five bronze castings. The 1941 catalog
                                                                                                                                                  > > describes this switcher as -- "Body is now completely die-cast
                                                                                                                                                  > > and comes assembled in kit." Yet, in Walthers' 1946 catalog, this
                                                                                                                                                  > > switcher is again described as having its cab consisting of five
                                                                                                                                                  > > die-castings which are now factory assembled. The finished
                                                                                                                                                  > > (factory assembled) locomotive now jumped to $30.00. BTW, the
                                                                                                                                                  > > five-piece bronze cab castings kit (# 6411) sold for $3.25
                                                                                                                                                  > > pre-War and $3.50 post-War.
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  > > By 1948, this kit "jumped" from the 1946 price of $19.00 to
                                                                                                                                                  > > $19.60, and stayed at that price through 1950. For those
                                                                                                                                                  > > modeling with this engine at that time, it was indicated that
                                                                                                                                                  > > this loco was in regular service on the AT&SF, IC, LV, C&NW,
                                                                                                                                                  > > MILW, B&O and others.
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  > > The post-War catalogs still say that this unit is powered by the
                                                                                                                                                  > > popular motor truck that is found with their gas-electric.
                                                                                                                                                  > > There's only one Power Unit cataloged from 1946 on, # U240, which
                                                                                                                                                  > > is decribed as having been recently redesigned "to eliminate all
                                                                                                                                                  > > possible bugs." They had to have converted it to 12 volt.
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  > > Just wanted to mention that the # 6611 single truck (4-wheel)
                                                                                                                                                  > > Birney trolley ("Street") car is described as being a Public
                                                                                                                                                  > > Service Company design. Public Service was a New Jersey
                                                                                                                                                  > > transportation company. Looking forward to seeing yours. These
                                                                                                                                                  > > also were produced both pre-War and post-War. Best, Ray
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  > > </HTML>
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > Are you sure you want to send this message?
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >


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                                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9119 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Etching
                                                                                                                                                  Gentlemen(and ladies),
                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                  There has been mention of photo-etching but little discussion of it. Photo-ethcing fort model RR's was not really "early" in 1960, but has a history dating back to about 1948(that I know of, read that somewhere about 1971 and can't remember the source). The technique grew out of letterpress plate-making(which in turn dates back to well before 1900), using some imagination.
                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                  If you're looking to have some etching done, a listee does this for a living. Small orders a specialty...
                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                  Just a "hint."
                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                  Happy Modeling
                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                  Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9120 From: jim heckard Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: I Found a Walthers Cast Bronze High Hood Switcher!
                                                                                                                                                      Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                 Welcome to you and other new members to one of the premier HO sites. You are so right about sharing or it gets lost. I'm always out here in cyber space if I can be of help. I have a couple of vintage engines and a little knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                                I am the lucky owner of 4 Trackside Specialties engines.  B-1, O-1 and 2 P-5a's. I have a full set of plans for the P-5a and they are on HO seeker if needed. Jim Waterman thinks that the engines I have were his dads own who painted them.
                                                                                                                                                              Again any help with anything I can provide just ask.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 1:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I Found a Walthers Cast Bronze High Hood Switcher!

                                                                                                                                                  Jay
                                                                                                                                                  Let me welcome you and say it was a very intresting story of your trip into Vintage HO. I enjoyed it very much.
                                                                                                                                                  Charlie W
                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                  > From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [vintageHO] I Found a Walthers Cast Bronze High Hood Switcher!
                                                                                                                                                  > Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 02:44:17 -0000
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Don D.(Moderator) and All:
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > By way of introduction as a new member today, I'd like take a few
                                                                                                                                                  > paragraphs to tell a little about my interest in vintage HO scale
                                                                                                                                                  > modeling and what model actually began my adventures in our corner
                                                                                                                                                  > of the HO world.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > What makes one become a vintage HO modeler/operator/ collector?
                                                                                                                                                  > Does it mean holding on to models you built two or three decades
                                                                                                                                                  > ago? Most life long model railroaders would fit that category, and
                                                                                                                                                  > their models would be called vintage, same as the AARP classifies
                                                                                                                                                  > their owners like me as vintage, too. But I'm not sure that alone
                                                                                                                                                  > would make them a Vintage HO Scale Modeler!
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > My first steam engine as a young teen was a Penn Line H-9, I built
                                                                                                                                                  > kits from Ambroid and Quality Craft, even bought a Red Ball Bordens
                                                                                                                                                  > milk tank car kit and Red Ball catalog (with John Anderson
                                                                                                                                                  > artwork)from HO pioneer Howell Day. In the early 1980's I bought a
                                                                                                                                                  > couple of those lead Alco Flat Front High Hood switcher casting
                                                                                                                                                  > sets from Walthers, soldered one together, rounded all the edges
                                                                                                                                                  > and mounted that "lead brick" on an Athearn switcher chassis. All
                                                                                                                                                  > that still did not make me anything else but an active modeler
                                                                                                                                                  > building and operating currently available kits.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > In the mid 1980's I began attending some of the many train shows in
                                                                                                                                                  > the NY Metro area, and started to pick up the out of production
                                                                                                                                                  > items that I missed at my local hobby shop. But nothing out of the
                                                                                                                                                  > ordinary, until a few years later when a vendor had a few older
                                                                                                                                                  > Penn Line locomotives on his table with a small grimy switcher. It
                                                                                                                                                  > looked a little like my Walthers cast lead High Hoods, but was a
                                                                                                                                                  > bit different, narrower hood, more to scale; a heavy casting, but
                                                                                                                                                  > not lead.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > It was missing three sideframes and while it had a motor inside,
                                                                                                                                                  > who knew the condition. Worse yet, someone had tried to pry off
                                                                                                                                                  > the thick hood top casting from the cab end, without removing the
                                                                                                                                                  > front screws, with the result that the thick top casting was bent
                                                                                                                                                  > permanently upward about 1/4". Still it was interesting, but for
                                                                                                                                                  > $25 and with a seller reluctant to deal, I put it down and walked
                                                                                                                                                  > away.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > But on my way out, I went to look at it again, thinking when am I
                                                                                                                                                  > going to see another? Besides, it would look great with DL&W-
                                                                                                                                                  > "Lackawanna" decals along the sides as they were one of the few
                                                                                                                                                  > roads with most of the actual flat-front High Hoods, one of the
                                                                                                                                                  > roads I actively modeled. More suprising, the tableholder now
                                                                                                                                                  > agreed to 10% off. I had become a vintage HO guy with a beautiful
                                                                                                                                                  > little switcher!
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > It took a few years before I confirmed this was a very early cast
                                                                                                                                                  > bronze Walthers circa 1939-1940 model, and a few more before I
                                                                                                                                                  > found a correct pair of sideframes for the power truck, with home
                                                                                                                                                  > made third rail shoe strip soldered to them. A eBayer threw that in
                                                                                                                                                  > "instead of throwing it away, as an extra since I bought that other
                                                                                                                                                  > old junk." LOL! Using my Red Ball catalog, I started looking for
                                                                                                                                                  > other Red Ball kits and found a few, then started noticing more.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > I started a collection of vintage Erie and Lackawanna kits, never
                                                                                                                                                  > thought there would be so many! Athearn Metal, Ulrich, Hobbyline,
                                                                                                                                                  > Varney, Globe, Railmaster.. ..there was no turning back! I have to
                                                                                                                                                  > credit Hal Carstens for continually calling to attention the old
                                                                                                                                                  > great names in HO for all the decades I read him since the early
                                                                                                                                                  > 1960's, too. The stories of the people behind the models is
                                                                                                                                                  > interesting as well (I noticed Vince Waterman's son is here!)
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > Today, besides my vintage HO modeling, I am an active model
                                                                                                                                                  > railroader, buying new models as well, focusing on my favorite
                                                                                                                                                  > roads DL&W/Erie/EL and NYS&W including commuter operations, along
                                                                                                                                                  > with a bit of neighboring northwest Jersey roads: Lehigh & New
                                                                                                                                                  > England, Lehigh & Hudson River and CNJ, with a spot of PRR/PC in
                                                                                                                                                  > rural West Jersey and the PRR Main Line electric operations. That
                                                                                                                                                  > last bit combines nicely with finding those very cool Trackside
                                                                                                                                                  > Specialties models that I first saw as a teen circa 1966, and the
                                                                                                                                                  > Internationals as well. (If that were not enough, I also have an
                                                                                                                                                  > active interest in NYC Subway modeling.)
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > One final note: A vintage traction manufacturer, Vane Jones of the
                                                                                                                                                  > Indianapolis Car Company used to print a motto in his publication:
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > "Information, unless shared, is useless."
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > From what I have seen in the photo albums and read on many posts
                                                                                                                                                  > here that I read for the past several hours, I can see that motto
                                                                                                                                                  > is practiced here. I look forward to being able to contributing my
                                                                                                                                                  > share.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  > > Hi Jim, Yes, this engine was produced pre-War. It was cataloged
                                                                                                                                                  > > as -- # 6410 "Diesel Switching Locomotive -- ALCO Type," and its
                                                                                                                                                  > > indicated that the kit came complete with the same standard
                                                                                                                                                  > > self-contained motor (power) truck that came with the # 5650 Gas
                                                                                                                                                  > > Electric Car, but of course being pre-War, it was rated for 6 to
                                                                                                                                                  > > 8 volts. The only thing that's not clear is which motor unit
                                                                                                                                                  > > they used with this switcher -- there were two Power Units -- #
                                                                                                                                                  > > U239 (13:1 gear ratio) and # U240 (6:1 gear ratio) -- unless you
                                                                                                                                                  > > had you choice. My 1939 catalog has it listed at $13.00 for the
                                                                                                                                                  > > kit. It was also offered factory assembled at $20.00. You may
                                                                                                                                                  > > have an early 1939 catalog if yours says $15.00 for the kit, and
                                                                                                                                                  > > if so, then it looks like they reduced the price. The 1940
                                                                                                                                                  > > catalog also lists it for $13.00, but it jumped to $15.00 in 1941
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  > > I noticed you stated that your switcher's body is heavy lead,
                                                                                                                                                  > > which is most curious, unless your body is a left-over from 1941.
                                                                                                                                                  > > Up until 1941, the pre-War switchers are described as having a
                                                                                                                                                  > > cab consisting of five bronze castings. The 1941 catalog
                                                                                                                                                  > > describes this switcher as -- "Body is now completely die-cast
                                                                                                                                                  > > and comes assembled in kit." Yet, in Walthers' 1946 catalog, this
                                                                                                                                                  > > switcher is again described as having its cab consisting of five
                                                                                                                                                  > > die-castings which are now factory assembled. The finished
                                                                                                                                                  > > (factory assembled) locomotive now jumped to $30.00. BTW, the
                                                                                                                                                  > > five-piece bronze cab castings kit (# 6411) sold for $3.25
                                                                                                                                                  > > pre-War and $3.50 post-War.
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  > > By 1948, this kit "jumped" from the 1946 price of $19.00 to
                                                                                                                                                  > > $19.60, and stayed at that price through 1950. For those
                                                                                                                                                  > > modeling with this engine at that time, it was indicated that
                                                                                                                                                  > > this loco was in regular service on the AT&SF, IC, LV, C&NW,
                                                                                                                                                  > > MILW, B&O and others.
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  > > The post-War catalogs still say that this unit is powered by the
                                                                                                                                                  > > popular motor truck that is found with their gas-electric.
                                                                                                                                                  > > There's only one Power Unit cataloged from 1946 on, # U240, which
                                                                                                                                                  > > is decribed as having been recently redesigned "to eliminate all
                                                                                                                                                  > > possible bugs." They had to have converted it to 12 volt.
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  > > Just wanted to mention that the # 6611 single truck (4-wheel)
                                                                                                                                                  > > Birney trolley ("Street") car is described as being a Public
                                                                                                                                                  > > Service Company design. Public Service was a New Jersey
                                                                                                                                                  > > transportation company. Looking forward to seeing yours. These
                                                                                                                                                  > > also were produced both pre-War and post-War. Best, Ray
                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                  > > </HTML>
                                                                                                                                                  > >
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                                                                                                                                                  Group: vintageHO Message: 9121 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                    took some pictures today, and scanned the Cleveland Articulated plans...

                                                                                                                                                    and , a quoted answer from Jan Lorenzen:

                                                                                                                                                    My father picked up the HO Railroad and Model Supply Co line around 1969-70 or so and began to sell them under the Locomotive workshop banner.  We in turn sold the trolley line, plus the dies and etch masters for the PCC and the casting masters for the Adams and Son Birney repop to Earl Mast in 1973, who sold it to unknown people after that.  So far as I know nobody has made more of the brass etchings using these kit's film since then.  The photo etch masters were thought lost forever.  Several films have been accidentally found recently by Jim Richards, and I'm trying to find out how complete they are and whether it is worth re-running anything.  However, there are a number of these kits that do come up at shows.  I don't see too many HO kits, but they might be hiding, I usually only see the O scale kits that Ed "tallman" of Berkshire Carhouse sells.
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                    As you know, the etchings were usually two step brass acid photo etched brass kits.  I can tell if they were the original line or the ones we made, our etcher used a blue colored coating, the originals were red.  We received new etchings in bulk in the shop, the sheets were cut up on the shear and packaged with wood roof stock and the drawings.  Most of the kits that I remember were already made up by the time I saw them.  My dad gave me an O Cleveland 4000 to work on in 1973, I took it out of the bag and found that it was one of the ones that did not get the second etch to clear out the windows, so its alot of drilling, sawing and filing.  I just recently restarted work on the hundred or so windows I need to cut out.

                                                                                                                                                    When checking my files I found that there should be an Interstate combine somewhere.... cant remember where I have put it!  Old age catches up....

                                                                                                                                                    gerold
                                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9122 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties PRR Boxcabs
                                                                                                                                                    Jim H and Charles W, Thank you for the warm welcome!

                                                                                                                                                    Jim, Thanks for the information on the P5a Instructions. The week before I bought my first B-1 on eBay, I missed a P5a. I contacted the seller, asking him to let me know if the purchaser reneged and if he would copy the instructions for me which he did, adding that he was listing a B-1 the next week!

                                                                                                                                                    My second complete B-1 was an almost completed kit, poorly described, fuzzy photo, I could see three pantographs in the box. Not too much competion on that one, imagine my surprise when I received it. The box was marked O1c, and the instructions were O1c as well.

                                                                                                                                                    I immediately emailed the seller asking about "the other one" but he was a general seller, not really interested and said he had nothing else. A dead end. The instructions are very similar to the P5a pages in content. I can furnish you with a copy by mail if you want, (no operating scanner right now) - contact me by email with address.

                                                                                                                                                    I have no other Trackside Specialties models, but have a complete International P5a Modified, plus a second P5a Modified shell looking for a complete mechanism. Someone was recently selling groups of three and five Alco models P5a mechanisms on eBay, but each bidding became to steep for me to buy at that time.

                                                                                                                                                    In vintage PRR boxcabs, I also have an International O1a, bought at a show in pieces in a cigar box, but virtually all there and almost all together and a second O1a shell, also looking for a mechanism. I have the plans for the Interanational O1a, too.

                                                                                                                                                    Which brings to mind about how one contributes to HO Seeker. That resource has grown considerably since I first found it and I have paper I can supply.

                                                                                                                                                    Jay W.


                                                                                                                                                    Jay W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Jay,
                                                                                                                                                    > Welcome to you and other new members to one of the premier HO sites. You are so right about sharing or it gets lost. I'm always out here in cyber space if I can be of help. I have a couple of vintage engines and a little knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                    > I am the lucky owner of 4 Trackside Specialties engines. B-1, O-1 and 2 P-5a's. I have a full set of plans for the P-5a and they are on HO seeker if needed. Jim Waterman thinks that the engines I have were his dads own who painted them.
                                                                                                                                                    > Again any help with anything I can provide just ask.
                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                    > From: Charles Windes
                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 1:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I Found a Walthers Cast Bronze High Hood Switcher!
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Jay
                                                                                                                                                    > Let me welcome you and say it was a very intresting story of your trip into Vintage HO. I enjoyed it very much.
                                                                                                                                                    > Charlie W
                                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9123 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Another One - Just for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                                    I have added a couple of photos in my Cinder Valley album that I think many of you will get a chuckle out of.

                                                                                                                                                    They are of a 4-4-4-4-6T tank locomotive drag racing machine. It was built from a Penn Line Pennsy T-1. Why? Well, the local NMRA division conducted a series of HO drag races a few years ago at their annual Jamboree. It was called the Kodtrak Challange Cup and anything went as long as it was fast and could fit through an HO tunnel portal.

                                                                                                                                                    The T-1 was powered by a huge motor that completely fills the rear tank extension. This motor came from one of those radio controlled race cars that you used to see flying around the mall parking lots. This motor drove through a Hobbytown gear tower regeared with the low speed gears but with the gears reversed to increase the speed. The gear tower drove two worms going to the original Penn Line gears. The two engines were locked together by fashioning a single bottom frame cover plate that covered both of them.

                                                                                                                                                    The two tracks were a straight HO scale quarter mile with two HO tunnel portals at the end, exiting into an inertia braking system, (box of rags). One switch applied full 12 volts to both tracks at the same time. When the switch was thrown this beast burned the rails with a blur of drivers, rods and valve gear. Kudos to Penn Line for reliable mechanics!

                                                                                                                                                    The first photo shows the locomotive and the second also shows the trophys we won. More about this later.

                                                                                                                                                    Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9124 From: jim heckard Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties PRR Boxcabs
                                                                                                                                                    Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                     I thought that HO seeker had a way to contact him on his site. I also think he is a member of this site and might contact you. I have a Email address and snail mail address that I will pass on off site if you have no luck. I had sent him many pieces of paperwork since I felt it best to improve his site for all. Contact me at jimheck@...   Just click on this if full address not showing.
                                                                                                                                                           I was very fortunate in buying all my Trackside Specialties items at one time and from the same person. I was a member of the HO Scale Collectors and History Special Interest Group for many years. He was also a member who was selling off his collection of vintage items. I bought the TS engines. You were  lucky to find TS engines on Ebay and know what you were looking at. You were talking about production amounts for some of the engines. I have the B-1 rat as 50, the O-1 as 20 and the P-5a as 48 with some assembled ( one I have ) some being kits (one I have) with an Andeco drive in some. My information comes from Jim Lenahan and his Locomotive Lexicons. He was in the process of updating his books when he passed on. I had many conversations with him as he was preparing to use some of my collection (pictures and information) in the update. I would like a copy of the TS O-1 plans. Please let me know what the cost would be off site.
                                                                                                                                                           I have a painted International P-5 modified that is almost mint. I also have two International O-1's (each has slightly different details and 2 distinct drives but both International).
                                                                                                                                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:10 PM
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties PRR Boxcabs

                                                                                                                                                    Jim H and Charles W, Thank you for the warm welcome!

                                                                                                                                                    Jim, Thanks for the information on the P5a Instructions. The week before I bought my first B-1 on eBay, I missed a P5a. I contacted the seller, asking him to let me know if the purchaser reneged and if he would copy the instructions for me which he did, adding that he was listing a B-1 the next week!

                                                                                                                                                    My second complete B-1 was an almost completed kit, poorly described, fuzzy photo, I could see three pantographs in the box. Not too much competion on that one, imagine my surprise when I received it. The box was marked O1c, and the instructions were O1c as well.

                                                                                                                                                    I immediately emailed the seller asking about "the other one" but he was a general seller, not really interested and said he had nothing else. A dead end. The instructions are very similar to the P5a pages in content. I can furnish you with a copy by mail if you want, (no operating scanner right now) - contact me by email with address.

                                                                                                                                                    I have no other Trackside Specialties models, but have a complete International P5a Modified, plus a second P5a Modified shell looking for a complete mechanism. Someone was recently selling groups of three and five Alco models P5a mechanisms on eBay, but each bidding became to steep for me to buy at that time.

                                                                                                                                                    In vintage PRR boxcabs, I also have an International O1a, bought at a show in pieces in a cigar box, but virtually all there and almost all together and a second O1a shell, also looking for a mechanism. I have the plans for the Interanational O1a, too.

                                                                                                                                                    Which brings to mind about how one contributes to HO Seeker. That resource has grown considerably since I first found it and I have paper I can supply.

                                                                                                                                                    Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                    Jay W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Jay,
                                                                                                                                                    > Welcome to you and other new members to one of the premier HO sites. You are so right about sharing or it gets lost. I'm always out here in cyber space if I can be of help. I have a couple of vintage engines and a little knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                    > I am the lucky owner of 4 Trackside Specialties engines. B-1, O-1 and 2 P-5a's. I have a full set of plans for the P-5a and they are on HO seeker if needed. Jim Waterman thinks that the engines I have were his dads own who painted them.
                                                                                                                                                    > Again any help with anything I can provide just ask.
                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                    > From: Charles Windes
                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 1:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I Found a Walthers Cast Bronze High Hood Switcher!
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Jay
                                                                                                                                                    > Let me welcome you and say it was a very intresting story of your trip into Vintage HO. I enjoyed it very much.
                                                                                                                                                    > Charlie W
                                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9125 From: jim heckard Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties PRR Boxcabs
                                                                                                                                                    Jay,
                                                                                                                                                        Try    hoseeker@...  to get to Larry the site owner
                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 8:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties PRR Boxcabs

                                                                                                                                                    Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                     I thought that HO seeker had a way to contact him on his site. I also think he is a member of this site and might contact you. I have a Email address and snail mail address that I will pass on off site if you have no luck. I had sent him many pieces of paperwork since I felt it best to improve his site for all. Contact me at jimheck@...   Just click on this if full address not showing.
                                                                                                                                                           I was very fortunate in buying all my Trackside Specialties items at one time and from the same person. I was a member of the HO Scale Collectors and History Special Interest Group for many years. He was also a member who was selling off his collection of vintage items. I bought the TS engines. You were  lucky to find TS engines on Ebay and know what you were looking at. You were talking about production amounts for some of the engines. I have the B-1 rat as 50, the O-1 as 20 and the P-5a as 48 with some assembled ( one I have ) some being kits (one I have) with an Andeco drive in some. My information comes from Jim Lenahan and his Locomotive Lexicons. He was in the process of updating his books when he passed on. I had many conversations with him as he was preparing to use some of my collection (pictures and information) in the update. I would like a copy of the TS O-1 plans. Please let me know what the cost would be off site.
                                                                                                                                                           I have a painted International P-5 modified that is almost mint. I also have two International O-1's (each has slightly different details and 2 distinct drives but both International).
                                                                                                                                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:10 PM
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties PRR Boxcabs

                                                                                                                                                    Jim H and Charles W, Thank you for the warm welcome!

                                                                                                                                                    Jim, Thanks for the information on the P5a Instructions. The week before I bought my first B-1 on eBay, I missed a P5a. I contacted the seller, asking him to let me know if the purchaser reneged and if he would copy the instructions for me which he did, adding that he was listing a B-1 the next week!

                                                                                                                                                    My second complete B-1 was an almost completed kit, poorly described, fuzzy photo, I could see three pantographs in the box. Not too much competion on that one, imagine my surprise when I received it. The box was marked O1c, and the instructions were O1c as well.

                                                                                                                                                    I immediately emailed the seller asking about "the other one" but he was a general seller, not really interested and said he had nothing else. A dead end. The instructions are very similar to the P5a pages in content. I can furnish you with a copy by mail if you want, (no operating scanner right now) - contact me by email with address.

                                                                                                                                                    I have no other Trackside Specialties models, but have a complete International P5a Modified, plus a second P5a Modified shell looking for a complete mechanism. Someone was recently selling groups of three and five Alco models P5a mechanisms on eBay, but each bidding became to steep for me to buy at that time.

                                                                                                                                                    In vintage PRR boxcabs, I also have an International O1a, bought at a show in pieces in a cigar box, but virtually all there and almost all together and a second O1a shell, also looking for a mechanism. I have the plans for the Interanational O1a, too.

                                                                                                                                                    Which brings to mind about how one contributes to HO Seeker. That resource has grown considerably since I first found it and I have paper I can supply.

                                                                                                                                                    Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                    Jay W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Jay,
                                                                                                                                                    > Welcome to you and other new members to one of the premier HO sites. You are so right about sharing or it gets lost. I'm always out here in cyber space if I can be of help. I have a couple of vintage engines and a little knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                    > I am the lucky owner of 4 Trackside Specialties engines. B-1, O-1 and 2 P-5a's. I have a full set of plans for the P-5a and they are on HO seeker if needed. Jim Waterman thinks that the engines I have were his dads own who painted them.
                                                                                                                                                    > Again any help with anything I can provide just ask.
                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                    > From: Charles Windes
                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 1:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I Found a Walthers Cast Bronze High Hood Switcher!
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Jay
                                                                                                                                                    > Let me welcome you and say it was a very intresting story of your trip into Vintage HO. I enjoyed it very much.
                                                                                                                                                    > Charlie W
                                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9126 From: Riverboy Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: In Need Of Lindberg Part
                                                                                                                                                    Hello Group ,
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                    I am in need of the cupola for an old Lindberg center cupola caboose . Preferrably red or black  but if not , I can deal with it ..
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                    If someone has one available , please contact me offlist .
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                    Thank you .
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                    Tod
                                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9127 From: Chris B Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                    Here's another maker of diecast diesels I've never seen before.  Are these Lindsay drives?
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                    If I could have an extra train room and budget, I'd like to collect early diecast switchers.    
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                    TWO GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2 ENGINES

                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                    Item number: 330315341467

                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9128 From: Roger Aultman Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Winton Berkshire
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                    Jim   Yes the Ma Ra name jogs the memory seems they may have made or sold a switch machine also.
                                                                                                                                                    Roger 

                                                                                                                                                    Roger,
                                                                                                                                                     Taking of the top of my head for now. There were no lost wax casting versions for the Winton Berkshire. The Winton Allegheny had two different owners but the engine stayed basically the same construction. Plans were drawn up slightly different and two different addresses.  After that there was a lost wax model sold using Winton design and sold under the Ma Ra name ( I think). Don't hold me to this 100%. I have to go back and check because my old mind slips a lot.
                                                                                                                                                         Someone sent me a very detailed description of this history and I have it in my notes. If important I will go back and check.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 3:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton Berkshire

                                                                                                                                                    Neat job Jim, were there later lost wax versions also? Roger Aultman

                                                                                                                                                    As a lot of members know I have been building a new layout to go
                                                                                                                                                    with my vintage collection. Since the major premise of this Yahoo site is to
                                                                                                                                                    collect and RUN these vintage engines I have been taking items off my
                                                                                                                                                    shelves to get them running after a long period of being dormant. A lot of
                                                                                                                                                    my vintage collection is left unpainted to show what they are made of. This
                                                                                                                                                    is an engine I will be running on the layout that I painted and decaled.
                                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9129 From: louis niederlander Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Connectio
                                                                                                                                                    i am amazed at all of the O scale vintage data.  Is there a vintage O scale yahoo Group?  There doesn't seem to be any objection to bringing vintage o scale into the messages.
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                    I am in a club in Bedford Ohio.  Its original layout included O scale with lots of really old guys as members (I started when I was 15).  I remember seeing many of the hand crafted locomotives and trolleys. 
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                    Regards,
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                    Louis N
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                    Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. Find out more.
                                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9130 From: John Hagen Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                    That is a General Models Corp drive or possibly All Nation as All Nation purchased the General Models line when they went belly up. Couldn't be Lindsay as they never entered the O scale market so far as I know.

                                                                                                                                                    At $176 plus change the winner got them for a fair price. Up until rather recently it would have been possible to purchase a new All Nation 8 wheel drive for the dummy but I do not know if they are presently still available. Haven't kept up with O scale since returning to HO a few yrears back. I always kept my eyes open for a good deal on one of those switchers at the time but never found one at the same time I could afford it.

                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen

                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Here's another maker of diecast diesels I've never seen before.  Are these Lindsay drives?
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > If I could have an extra train room and budget, I'd like to collect early diecast switchers.    
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > TWO GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2 ENGINES
                                                                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                                                                    > Item number: 330315341467
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9131 From: keith gutshall Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                    Hello John
                                                                                                                                                     The look like All-Nation 0-scale NW-2 to me .
                                                                                                                                                    I have one and the drives look the same.
                                                                                                                                                     The other one I have has a differant drive in it, or it has be repowered?
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                     Keith

                                                                                                                                                    Deep Run Portage
                                                                                                                                                    Back Shop
                                                                                                                                                    " The Lizard Works"

                                                                                                                                                    --- On Tue, 3/24/09, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                    From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                    Date: Tuesday, March 24, 2009, 10:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                    That is a General Models Corp drive or possibly All Nation as All Nation purchased the General Models line when they went belly up. Couldn't be Lindsay as they never entered the O scale market so far as I know.

                                                                                                                                                    At $176 plus change the winner got them for a fair price. Up until rather recently it would have been possible to purchase a new All Nation 8 wheel drive for the dummy but I do not know if they are presently still available. Haven't kept up with O scale since returning to HO a few yrears back. I always kept my eyes open for a good deal on one of those switchers at the time but never found one at the same time I could afford it.

                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen

                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Here's another maker of diecast diesels I've never seen before.  Are these Lindsay drives?
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > If I could have an extra train room and budget, I'd like to collect early diecast switchers.    
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > TWO GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2 ENGINES
                                                                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                                                                    > Item number: 330315341467
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9132 From: curmudgeon Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                    All-Nation 8-wheel drive.
                                                                                                                                                    Looks like straight-cut gears, which makes it early.
                                                                                                                                                    And noisy.
                                                                                                                                                    I have several.
                                                                                                                                                    General Models, which I have one of, were 4-wheel drive (two axles) vertical motor.
                                                                                                                                                    The 600-horse unit is the one that's rare.
                                                                                                                                                    When Colson (All-Nation) bought General Models out of bankruptcy, they got the shells but no tooling (or so I have been told).
                                                                                                                                                    Not sure how many shells, but they sold them as All-Nation with the General Models vertical motors and never made any more.
                                                                                                                                                    I have one.
                                                                                                                                                    MUCH quieter than the All-Nation drive, but doesn't pull much.
                                                                                                                                                    Dave

                                                                                                                                                    > That is a General Models Corp drive or possibly All Nation as All Nation purchased the General Models line when they went belly up. Couldn't be Lindsay as they never entered the O scale market so far as I know.
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > At $176 plus change the winner got them for a fair price. Up until rather recently it would have been possible to purchase a new All Nation 8 wheel drive for the dummy but I do not know if they are presently still available. Haven't kept up with O scale since returning to HO a few yrears back. I always kept my eyes open for a good deal on one of those switchers at the time but never found one at the same time I could afford it.
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                    > > Here's another maker of diecast diesels I've never seen before.  Are these Lindsay drives?
                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                    > > If I could have an extra train room and budget, I'd like to collect early diecast switchers.    
                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                    > > TWO GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2 ENGINES
                                                                                                                                                    > >  
                                                                                                                                                    > > Item number: 330315341467
                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9133 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: Production of Trackside Specialties Models
                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H.,

                                                                                                                                                    In regard to knowing what to look for with the Trackside Industries boxcabs, besides having all my back issues of the model magazines with their tiny ads and a product review of the P5a in the June 1967 issue of RMC, I also had sent for Waterman's catalog, so had that too! The illustrations weren't much larger than the ads, but seeing it over the years made me very familiar with their construction.

                                                                                                                                                    Quantities Produced: Naturally, one of my questions of Mr. Lorenzen (senior) was how many models were produced. Fortunately I printed out his reply, and here is what he said in his email dated November 1, 2001: "If I remember the quantities of the O1 was 15 pieces; B1 was 56 pieces; HC1s was about 15 pieces." He did not give a number on the P5a's or FF2's. So a little lower on the O1c and a tad higher on the B1. In all, the slightly different numbers we have are all in the same ball park.

                                                                                                                                                    International O1c's: I had traced the development of them through their many magazine ads and it seems the models had three distinct phases or possibly runs. The originals from the late 1940's had the most varience from the PRR prototype, the mid 1950's version copied the plans in the Model Railroader Cyclopedia fairly closely, that version has two narrow pairs of vents near the end of each side; while the last version had three wider pairs of side vents backed by corrugated metal, at each end and centered.

                                                                                                                                                    Lastly, in regard to HO Seeker, I was thinking more of the logistics, than the contact, as some of what I have to offer is from the late 1930's and pretty much irreplaceable to me to trust to the mails or couriers. I will contact him.

                                                                                                                                                    Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Jay,
                                                                                                                                                    > I thought that HO seeker had a way to contact him on his site. I also think he is a member of this site and might contact you. I have a Email address and snail mail address that I will pass on off site if you have no luck. I had sent him many pieces of paperwork since I felt it best to improve his site for all. Contact me at jimheck@... Just click on this if full address not showing.
                                                                                                                                                    > I was very fortunate in buying all my Trackside Specialties items at one time and from the same person. I was a member of the HO Scale Collectors and History Special Interest Group for many years. He was also a member who was selling off his collection of vintage items. I bought the TS engines. You were lucky to find TS engines on Ebay and know what you were looking at. You were talking about production amounts for some of the engines. I have the B-1 rat as 50, the O-1 as 20 and the P-5a as 48 with some assembled ( one I have ) some being kits (one I have) with an Andeco drive in some. My information comes from Jim Lenahan and his Locomotive Lexicons. He was in the process of updating his books when he passed on. I had many conversations with him as he was preparing to use some of my collection (pictures and information) in the update. I would like a copy of the TS O-1 plans. Please let me know what the cost would be off site.
                                                                                                                                                    > I have a painted International P-5 modified that is almost mint. I also have two International O-1's (each has slightly different details and 2 distinct drives but both International).
                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                    > From: the_plainsman
                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:10 PM
                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties PRR Boxcabs
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H and Charles W, Thank you for the warm welcome!
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Jim, Thanks for the information on the P5a Instructions. The week before I bought my first B-1 on eBay, I missed a P5a. I contacted the seller, asking him to let me know if the purchaser reneged and if he would copy the instructions for me which he did, adding that he was listing a B-1 the next week!
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > My second complete B-1 was an almost completed kit, poorly described, fuzzy photo, I could see three pantographs in the box. Not too much competion on that one, imagine my surprise when I received it. The box was marked O1c, and the instructions were O1c as well.
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > I immediately emailed the seller asking about "the other one" but he was a general seller, not really interested and said he had nothing else. A dead end. The instructions are very similar to the P5a pages in content. I can furnish you with a copy by mail if you want, (no operating scanner right now) - contact me by email with address.
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > I have no other Trackside Specialties models, but have a complete International P5a Modified, plus a second P5a Modified shell looking for a complete mechanism. Someone was recently selling groups of three and five Alco models P5a mechanisms on eBay, but each bidding became to steep for me to buy at that time.
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > In vintage PRR boxcabs, I also have an International O1a, bought at a show in pieces in a cigar box, but virtually all there and almost all together and a second O1a shell, also looking for a mechanism. I have the plans for the Interanational O1a, too.
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Which brings to mind about how one contributes to HO Seeker. That resource has grown considerably since I first found it and I have paper I can supply.
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Jay W. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                    > > Jay,
                                                                                                                                                    > > Welcome to you and other new members to one of the premier HO sites. You are so right about sharing or it gets lost. I'm always out here in cyber space if I can be of help. I have a couple of vintage engines and a little knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                    > > I am the lucky owner of 4 Trackside Specialties engines. B-1, O-1 and 2 P-5a's. I have a full set of plans for the P-5a and they are on HO seeker if needed. Jim Waterman thinks that the engines I have were his dads own who painted them.
                                                                                                                                                    > > Again any help with anything I can provide just ask.
                                                                                                                                                    > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                    > > From: Charles Windes
                                                                                                                                                    > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                    > > Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 1:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                    > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I Found a Walthers Cast Bronze High Hood Switcher!
                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                    > > Jay
                                                                                                                                                    > > Let me welcome you and say it was a very intresting story of your trip into Vintage HO. I enjoyed it very much.
                                                                                                                                                    > > Charlie W
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9134 From: John Hagen Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                    All Antion was selling the NW-2 up until 6 - 7 years ago. I would find it hard to believe they were still working on left-over GM shells. All Nation also improved the drives several years ago by using plastic chain set up in place of the gears. This made them much quieter. But they continued to offer the gear drive for those that preferred.

                                                                                                                                                    SO far as pulling power they always had an 8 whell drive unit that curred the low tractive effort problem.

                                                                                                                                                    Yes the SW-1 (600 hp) is very rare and I do not believe All Nation produced it at all. I only saw one and was not certain if was in fact a production model or made from an NW-2 model. Could be they only sold the remaining stock of that unit?

                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen

                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > All-Nation 8-wheel drive.
                                                                                                                                                    > Looks like straight-cut gears, which makes it early.
                                                                                                                                                    > And noisy.
                                                                                                                                                    > I have several.
                                                                                                                                                    > General Models, which I have one of, were 4-wheel drive (two axles) vertical motor.
                                                                                                                                                    > The 600-horse unit is the one that's rare.
                                                                                                                                                    > When Colson (All-Nation) bought General Models out of bankruptcy, they got the shells but no tooling (or so I have been told).
                                                                                                                                                    > Not sure how many shells, but they sold them as All-Nation with the General Models vertical motors and never made any more.
                                                                                                                                                    > I have one.
                                                                                                                                                    > MUCH quieter than the All-Nation drive, but doesn't pull much.
                                                                                                                                                    > Dave
                                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9135 From: curmudgeon Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                    Didn't say NW-2.
                                                                                                                                                    Said 600 horse.
                                                                                                                                                    Shorter hood, toolbox on the front deck.
                                                                                                                                                    Those were GM designed and built, using GM drives.
                                                                                                                                                    The horizontal motor came with A-N, if I recall.
                                                                                                                                                    Same basic design in the F-3's.
                                                                                                                                                    Helical gears later, then Delrin chain and sprockets, but the 8-wheel drive and horizontal motor didn't fit in the short hood 600 horse unit.

                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > All Antion was selling the NW-2 up until 6 - 7 years ago. I would find it hard to believe they were still working on left-over GM shells. All Nation also improved the drives several years ago by using plastic chain set up in place of the gears. This made them much quieter. But they continued to offer the gear drive for those that preferred.
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > SO far as pulling power they always had an 8 whell drive unit that curred the low tractive effort problem.
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Yes the SW-1 (600 hp) is very rare and I do not believe All Nation produced it at all. I only saw one and was not certain if was in fact a production model or made from an NW-2 model. Could be they only sold the remaining stock of that unit?
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                    > > All-Nation 8-wheel drive.
                                                                                                                                                    > > Looks like straight-cut gears, which makes it early.
                                                                                                                                                    > > And noisy.
                                                                                                                                                    > > I have several.
                                                                                                                                                    > > General Models, which I have one of, were 4-wheel drive (two axles) vertical motor.
                                                                                                                                                    > > The 600-horse unit is the one that's rare.
                                                                                                                                                    > > When Colson (All-Nation) bought General Models out of bankruptcy, they got the shells but no tooling (or so I have been told).
                                                                                                                                                    > > Not sure how many shells, but they sold them as All-Nation with the General Models vertical motors and never made any more.
                                                                                                                                                    > > I have one.
                                                                                                                                                    > > MUCH quieter than the All-Nation drive, but doesn't pull much.
                                                                                                                                                    > > Dave
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9136 From: John Hagen Date: 3/24/2009
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                    Sorry, I misunderstood your post. I guess I was confused as this thread started with an ebay sale of 2 NW-2's.

                                                                                                                                                    Yes I know the differences between a NW-2 and a SW-1. I also know the difficulty with powering a SW-1 as I tried to do it in HO once for a (hoped for} kitbash I wanted to do. At least I started with the drive before I spent a bunch of time on the shell.

                                                                                                                                                    That was over 30 years ago. How time flies.

                                                                                                                                                    Have a good one.

                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen

                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Didn't say NW-2.
                                                                                                                                                    > Said 600 horse.
                                                                                                                                                    > Shorter hood, toolbox on the front deck.
                                                                                                                                                    > Those were GM designed and built, using GM drives.
                                                                                                                                                    > The horizontal motor came with A-N, if I recall.
                                                                                                                                                    > Same basic design in the F-3's.
                                                                                                                                                    > Helical gears later, then Delrin chain and sprockets, but the 8-wheel drive and horizontal motor didn't fit in the short hood 600 horse unit.
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9137 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                    Are you sure these are HO?  Might run if you space double track right--They look like O Scale locos to me, such as the photos are--General Models picked up from Varney and Atwater, eventually wound up as All Nation.  I can see the motor in the lower center of the one unit.  They were probably the first O Scale loco for many O scalers.  If you have better photos-let's get a look.  gj
                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                    From: Chris B
                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 2:46 PM
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2

                                                                                                                                                    Here's another maker of diecast diesels I've never seen before.  Are these Lindsay drives?
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                    If I could have an extra train room and budget, I'd like to collect early diecast switchers.    
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                    TWO GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2 ENGINES

                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                    Item number: 330315341467

                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
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                                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9138 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                    Early ones had a single power truck mounted into the cab.  gj
                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2

                                                                                                                                                    Hello John
                                                                                                                                                     The look like All-Nation 0-scale NW-2 to me .
                                                                                                                                                    I have one and the drives look the same.
                                                                                                                                                     The other one I have has a differant drive in it, or it has be repowered?
                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                     Keith

                                                                                                                                                    Deep Run Portage
                                                                                                                                                    Back Shop
                                                                                                                                                    " The Lizard Works"

                                                                                                                                                    --- On Tue, 3/24/09, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                    From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                    Date: Tuesday, March 24, 2009, 10:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                    That is a General Models Corp drive or possibly All Nation as All Nation purchased the General Models line when they went belly up. Couldn't be Lindsay as they never entered the O scale market so far as I know.

                                                                                                                                                    At $176 plus change the winner got them for a fair price. Up until rather recently it would have been possible to purchase a new All Nation 8 wheel drive for the dummy but I do not know if they are presently still available. Haven't kept up with O scale since returning to HO a few yrears back. I always kept my eyes open for a good deal on one of those switchers at the time but never found one at the same time I could afford it.

                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen

                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > Here's another maker of diecast diesels I've never seen before.  Are these Lindsay drives?
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > If I could have an extra train room and budget, I'd like to collect early diecast switchers.    
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                    > TWO GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2 ENGINES
                                                                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                                                                    > Item number: 330315341467
                                                                                                                                                    >



                                                                                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                    Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.27/2021 - Release Date: 03/24/09 16:00:00
                                                                                                                                                    Group: vintageHO Message: 9139 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                    Subject: International O1c
                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > International O1c's: I had traced the development of them through their many magazine ads and it seems the models had three distinct phases or possibly runs. The originals from the late 1940's had the most varience from the PRR prototype, the mid 1950's version copied the plans in the Model Railroader Cyclopedia fairly closely, that version has two narrow pairs of vents near the end of each side; while the last version had three wider pairs of side vents backed by corrugated metal, at each end and centered.
                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jay,

                                                                                                                                                      have to admit I never realized there are so many carbody variations....
                                                                                                                                                      had to check what I have got, apparently its a "stage 3" ... it had a
                                                                                                                                                      defective vertical shaft motor, and the two axles connected by a spring
                                                                                                                                                      belt. I substituted a later KMT motor which I monted slanted and towards
                                                                                                                                                      the respective locomotive end, for clearance reasons. Its
                                                                                                                                                      counrerbalanced by a lead weight in the other end. Guess the
                                                                                                                                                      application of two Keystones is wrong but I didn t know better then.

                                                                                                                                                      Gerold
                                                                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 9140 From: mmattjcoleman Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
                                                                                                                                                      Rascinating story and I think you ought to write the article. It is memories like this that keep the history of our hobby alive for future generations.

                                                                                                                                                      Matt


                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Matt C, Gerold E, Chris B and Jim Waterman (and All),
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > I did not think I'd have the opportunity to tell this story so soon, and was going to use it in an article, but I'll give it up now, so here goes:
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > "A few years ago, I was surprised to discover that Jan Lorenzen of The Locomotive Workship (and inductee to the O Scale Hall of Fame in 2005)was associated with the production of the Trackside Specialties HO scale PRR Boxcabs of the 1960's for Vincent Waterman (himself an inductee to the O Scale Hall of fame in 2004)!"
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > "I met Jan Lorenzen at a New York Society of Model Engineers (NYSME) swap meet a couple of years before his untimely passing and here is how I discovered that interesting vintage HO connection. A friend and I had been admiring The Locomotive Workshp tables and my friend had spotted a modified Penn Line Locomotive in the midst of the impressive O scale kits. He asked me why Penn Line went out of business, and I gave him a brief reply."
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > "The boothholder then stepped in and said these amazing words, "I attended the Penn Line Bankruptcy Sale!" As I struggled to comprehend the impact of those words, my mind slammed into gear, thinking who else was there and immediately asked, "Do you know Vincent Waterman?" (I had been already looking for Mr. Waterman for a couple of years, trying to track down information on those wonderful PRR Boxcabs I had first seen as a young teen in the mid-1960's at a show sponsored by the Metropolitan Council of Model Railroads in a church basement in Parsippany, NJ around 1966.)"
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > "Tables turned, Mr. Lorenzen was rocked a bit by my unanticipated response to his mention of the bankruptsy sale, and he asked, "Why do you want to know?" So I told him what an impression those models has on me almost thirty years before, and how I had finally purchased a Trackside B-1 "rat" on eBay out of Texas, and was trying to track down Vince Watterman to find out more about the history of the models."
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > "At that point, a broad smile creased Mr. Lorenzen's face, as he told us, "I worked alongside Vincent Waterman to produce those models!" I could not believe what I was hearing, but spent the next few minutes discussing some of my all-time favorite models. He said he thought he had some production figures back at his shop and we exchanged email addresses."
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > "He then paused and smiled again and said, "I think I have one of those B-1 assembled bodies still back at the shop, if you are interested I'll check and let you know." Interested? It was all I could do to stop from following him down to his South Jersy shop in Englistown immeditely at the close of the show!"
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > "And true to his word, he emailed me some information and that he had indeed found the last B-1 body (no extra parts, though) and quoted me a most reasonable, I think almost vintage price."
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > "A few days later, the mint brass shell was in my hands. I raced down to my shop where I grabbed an old spare powered half of a Penn Line GG-1 and my other Trackside B-1, measured carefully and hacksawed off the excess frame, taking care to not file off all of the saw marks, just like my Trackside original, and mounted it on a temporaray brass sheet frame, along with the assembled shell. Wow!"
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > "I was invited to visit his shop, but around that time, I became sole caregiver to a parent in their final years, so had to decline. But I enjoyed being on his mailing list, and after my family duties were over, got back to visiting the train shows and heard at my first show in Pennsylvania that Mr. Lorenzen had died, so that connection was broken. I later learned that Vince Waterman, Jim's father, had also passed away and I never met him."
                                                                                                                                                      > (c) 2009 W. Jay Wanczyk
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > Upon first joinging this group yesterday, I saw Vince's son Jim's albums and also read some of the Trackside Specialties posts, happy to find that I'm not the only one who appreciates those neat Trackside models and one of the few All-American entries into the history of Brass HO and the "Brown Book."
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > Perhaps Jim can tell us a bit more of the association between his dad and Jan Lorenzen.
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      > Ps. Discoveries like mine and chance meetings rarely happen, but when they do, are a remarkable and most rewarding part of our hobby, and can help fill in the gaps in our history and knowledge. I'm on the trail of another right now...!
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 9141 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chris,
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      General Models only made O scale engines, these engines were still in production just a few years ago, as All Nation had taken over General Models back in the 50's, niether the original owners of the All Nation Hobby shop, who were the ones that produced these through the 1970's, nor Bill Pope, who was the sole proprietor of All Nation since then, ever took the the General Models name stamp out of the castings.
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      The drive your looking at in the picture is an All Nation drive, trust me, they can pull just about anything, they were available unpowered, with single powered truck, or with duel powered trucks, All Nation only produced 2 rail scale models, although some private individuals did convert a few for 3 rail and hi-rail use, also the pictures your looking at are O scale models, and yes, they are worth what the current price is now...........:o)
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                      From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 5:46:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2

                                                                                                                                                      Here's another maker of diecast diesels I've never seen before.  Are these Lindsay drives?
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      If I could have an extra train room and budget, I'd like to collect early diecast switchers.    
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                      TWO GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2 ENGINES

                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                      Item number: 330315341467

                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 9142 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                      Hi gj,
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      Just click on the pic, it will take you straight to the ebay listing, it naturally is in the O scale listings...........:o)
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                      From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:09:04 AM
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2

                                                                                                                                                      Are you sure these are HO?  Might run if you space double track right--They look like O Scale locos to me, such as the photos are--General Models picked up from Varney and Atwater, eventually wound up as All Nation.  I can see the motor in the lower center of the one unit.  They were probably the first O Scale loco for many O scalers.  If you have better photos-let's get a look.  gj
                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                      From: Chris B
                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 2:46 PM
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2

                                                                                                                                                      Here's another maker of diecast diesels I've never seen before.  Are these Lindsay drives?
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      If I could have an extra train room and budget, I'd like to collect early diecast switchers.    
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                      TWO GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2 ENGINES

                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                      Item number: 330315341467

                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.26/2020 - Release Date: 03/24/09 09:19:00
                                                                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 9143 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: New Vids
                                                                                                                                                      Hi Ya'll,
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      Yes I been busy, busy busy busy! Unfortunately not busy enough with my model trains, but busy none the less, here are some new vids, mostly Trainz vids, but ya gotta love the new black widow SP units for sure.
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      In this first one, Busy Day At Roscoe, an SP reefer train meets up with the Sunbeam being pulled by E7's, it also meets up with the Santa Fe 2929 pulling a passenger special.
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      In this one, I had just downloaded the SP F7's in their fresh black widow skins, they are real beauties aren't they?
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      In this one, Improvements To The Highline shows off another freshly done model, the RGS goose No.5, I re did a lot of the rock faces and added some more vegitation to the the D&S highline.
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      In this last one, Runnin' The 20, it also is climbing up out of the Animas Canyon on its way to Rockwood, I don't get to run my RGS stuff too much, so I'm running the RGS No.20 in this one, pulling some my green D&RGW passenger coaches and the private car Alimosa.
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      Enjoy!
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

                                                                                                                                                      Group: vintageHO Message: 9144 From: jim heckard Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                      Subject: International O-1
                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                      These are pictures of two similar O-1's but with differences. (First I don't know an O-1 c from an a to z). I have to be a little quick here as I have to leave for a while. I believe these both made by IMP (International) with the big difference being the drives. Both these engines appear in Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicons. He states what one is and the other unidentified. I believe he has the one that is IDed  wrong and should go with the other.
                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                             The first two pictures show the side view, for detail, and the drive from the bottom. I believe this drive to be ,for lack of words, the standard/ early International drive.
                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                             The last two pictures go together and again show a side view and the different drive from the bottom. This engine has a belt drive from the motor to the geared drivers (if I am remembering right but in a hurry).
                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                              Everything to me points to two different productions of International / IMP but maybe one was sold by them and another was marketed by someone else. The lead and trailing trucks are exactly the same as some other things but there are slight detail differences.
                                                                                                                                                             Hope some experts out there have opinions. Have fun till I get back. Must hurry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 9145 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: International O1c
                                                                                                                                                        Hi Gerold,

                                                                                                                                                        Your model looks good with the two heralds. The prototypes, though deemed unsuccessful for the purpose they were designed, replacing the Atlantics, nevertheless had long productive lives, almost as long as a few B-1's and it is surprising how many different paint variations they had, so your scheme seems natural.

                                                                                                                                                        I guess I should have double checked my late night post more closely, as I left out one portion of my description of the earliest International O1 run, noting the number of screen pairs and that the early edition seemed to be the only run with the "ventilation clerestory" on the roof. Your description of the vertical shaft motor and spring drive belt to power the second axle also marks early versions of other brass, so I think you have one of the first.

                                                                                                                                                        About the same time as I bought my original kit that had been assembled and "re-kitted" (the original box and "instructions" were also in the cigar box with the parts), I had finally come across most of the 1950's Railroad Model Craftsmans at a very good price at a local show, so that winter enjoyed reviewing them in order, checking all the ads and comparing my model. Fortunately, International ran many ads showing them with illustrations and descriptions. The O1's must have been a popular model; too bad we do not have complete production records, at least in the Brown Book.

                                                                                                                                                        Next time I get a chance, I think I will go through them again and make a detailed list of dates and changes in the illustrations and also recheck the catalogs now available on HO Seeker (it seems that there were gaps of a year or two between runs). There was only one product review, in the February, 1959 RMC, according to the Composite Product Review Index complied by John Swift in 1983.

                                                                                                                                                        Jay W.


                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > International O1c's: I had traced the development of them through their many magazine ads and it seems the models had three distinct phases or possibly runs. The originals from the late 1940's had the most varience from the PRR prototype, the mid 1950's version copied the plans in the Model Railroader Cyclopedia fairly closely, that version has two narrow pairs of vents near the end of each side; while the last version had three wider pairs of side vents backed by corrugated metal, at each end and centered.
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > have to admit I never realized there are so many carbody variations....
                                                                                                                                                        > had to check what I have got, apparently its a "stage 3" ... it had a
                                                                                                                                                        > defective vertical shaft motor, and the two axles connected by a spring
                                                                                                                                                        > belt. I substituted a later KMT motor which I monted slanted and towards
                                                                                                                                                        > the respective locomotive end, for clearance reasons. Its
                                                                                                                                                        > counrerbalanced by a lead weight in the other end. Guess the
                                                                                                                                                        > application of two Keystones is wrong but I didn t know better then.
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 9146 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: International O-1
                                                                                                                                                        Hi Jim H,

                                                                                                                                                        We were working on our responses at the same time! My review of International's ads shows at least three distinct runs, and we know that International commissioned models from a number of different builders over the years, too. They must have been good sellers for (Lou?) Barnett, for him to keep importing them for over a deacade! Will try to do the ad review again and make sepcific notes this weekend.

                                                                                                                                                        Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > These are pictures of two similar O-1's but with differences. (First I don't know an O-1 c from an a to z). I have to be a little quick here as I have to leave for a while. I believe these both made by IMP (International) with the big difference being the drives. Both these engines appear in Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicons. He states what one is and the other unidentified. I believe he has the one that is IDed wrong and should go with the other.
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > The first two pictures show the side view, for detail, and the drive from the bottom. I believe this drive to be ,for lack of words, the standard/ early International drive.
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > The last two pictures go together and again show a side view and the different drive from the bottom. This engine has a belt drive from the motor to the geared drivers (if I am remembering right but in a hurry).
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > Everything to me points to two different productions of International / IMP but maybe one was sold by them and another was marketed by someone else. The lead and trailing trucks are exactly the same as some other things but there are slight detail differences.
                                                                                                                                                        > Hope some experts out there have opinions. Have fun till I get back. Must hurry.
                                                                                                                                                        > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 9147 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
                                                                                                                                                        Hi Matt,

                                                                                                                                                        Thanks, I will, have more written about this and several other Vintage HO subjects. I'm sure others have some good stories of discovery as well, or simply about those pioneers who made our models and the "hows" and "whys." I encourage all to type them out or tell them to someone who will, as you said, keeping the history alive for future generations.

                                                                                                                                                        Just seeing the new to me great new-to-me photos of Penn Line last night in Jim Waterman's album brought to mind that there must be more unwritten stories in the ghosts of Boyertown, PA, that have not been covered elsewhere already. Those "packing kids" would still be alive to tell their stories from their perspective as part timers!

                                                                                                                                                        Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > Rascinating story and I think you ought to write the article. It is memories like this that keep the history of our hobby alive for future generations.
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > Matt
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > Hi Matt C, Gerold E, Chris B and Jim Waterman (and All),
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > I did not think I'd have the opportunity to tell this story so soon, and was going to use it in an article, but I'll give it up now, so here goes:
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > "A few years ago, I was surprised to discover that Jan Lorenzen of The Locomotive Workship (and inductee to the O Scale Hall of Fame in 2005)was associated with the production of the Trackside Specialties HO scale PRR Boxcabs of the 1960's for Vincent Waterman (himself an inductee to the O Scale Hall of fame in 2004)!"
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > "I met Jan Lorenzen at a New York Society of Model Engineers (NYSME) swap meet a couple of years before his untimely passing and here is how I discovered that interesting vintage HO connection. A friend and I had been admiring The Locomotive Workshp tables and my friend had spotted a modified Penn Line Locomotive in the midst of the impressive O scale kits. He asked me why Penn Line went out of business, and I gave him a brief reply."
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > "The boothholder then stepped in and said these amazing words, "I attended the Penn Line Bankruptcy Sale!" As I struggled to comprehend the impact of those words, my mind slammed into gear, thinking who else was there and immediately asked, "Do you know Vincent Waterman?" (I had been already looking for Mr. Waterman for a couple of years, trying to track down information on those wonderful PRR Boxcabs I had first seen as a young teen in the mid-1960's at a show sponsored by the Metropolitan Council of Model Railroads in a church basement in Parsippany, NJ around 1966.)"
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > "Tables turned, Mr. Lorenzen was rocked a bit by my unanticipated response to his mention of the bankruptsy sale, and he asked, "Why do you want to know?" So I told him what an impression those models has on me almost thirty years before, and how I had finally purchased a Trackside B-1 "rat" on eBay out of Texas, and was trying to track down Vince Watterman to find out more about the history of the models."
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > "At that point, a broad smile creased Mr. Lorenzen's face, as he told us, "I worked alongside Vincent Waterman to produce those models!" I could not believe what I was hearing, but spent the next few minutes discussing some of my all-time favorite models. He said he thought he had some production figures back at his shop and we exchanged email addresses."
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > "He then paused and smiled again and said, "I think I have one of those B-1 assembled bodies still back at the shop, if you are interested I'll check and let you know." Interested? It was all I could do to stop from following him down to his South Jersy shop in Englistown immeditely at the close of the show!"
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > "And true to his word, he emailed me some information and that he had indeed found the last B-1 body (no extra parts, though) and quoted me a most reasonable, I think almost vintage price."
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > "A few days later, the mint brass shell was in my hands. I raced down to my shop where I grabbed an old spare powered half of a Penn Line GG-1 and my other Trackside B-1, measured carefully and hacksawed off the excess frame, taking care to not file off all of the saw marks, just like my Trackside original, and mounted it on a temporaray brass sheet frame, along with the assembled shell. Wow!"
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > "I was invited to visit his shop, but around that time, I became sole caregiver to a parent in their final years, so had to decline. But I enjoyed being on his mailing list, and after my family duties were over, got back to visiting the train shows and heard at my first show in Pennsylvania that Mr. Lorenzen had died, so that connection was broken. I later learned that Vince Waterman, Jim's father, had also passed away and I never met him."
                                                                                                                                                        > > (c) 2009 W. Jay Wanczyk
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > Upon first joinging this group yesterday, I saw Vince's son Jim's albums and also read some of the Trackside Specialties posts, happy to find that I'm not the only one who appreciates those neat Trackside models and one of the few All-American entries into the history of Brass HO and the "Brown Book."
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > Perhaps Jim can tell us a bit more of the association between his dad and Jan Lorenzen.
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > Ps. Discoveries like mine and chance meetings rarely happen, but when they do, are a remarkable and most rewarding part of our hobby, and can help fill in the gaps in our history and knowledge. I'm on the trail of another right now...!
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 9148 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                        While GMC only made locos in O Scale, they did do the Pollock hot metal car in HO.  gj
                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:00 AM
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2

                                                                                                                                                        Hi Chris,
                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                        General Models only made O scale engines, these engines were still in production just a few years ago, as All Nation had taken over General Models back in the 50's, niether the original owners of the All Nation Hobby shop, who were the ones that produced these through the 1970's, nor Bill Pope, who was the sole proprietor of All Nation since then, ever took the the General Models name stamp out of the castings.
                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                        The drive your looking at in the picture is an All Nation drive, trust me, they can pull just about anything, they were available unpowered, with single powered truck, or with duel powered trucks, All Nation only produced 2 rail scale models, although some private individuals did convert a few for 3 rail and hi-rail use, also the pictures your looking at are O scale models, and yes, they are worth what the current price is now...........:o)
                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                        Gary W
                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                        Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                        From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 5:46:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2

                                                                                                                                                        Here's another maker of diecast diesels I've never seen before.  Are these Lindsay drives?
                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                        If I could have an extra train room and budget, I'd like to collect early diecast switchers.    
                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                        TWO GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2 ENGINES

                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                        Item number: 330315341467

                                                                                                                                                         



                                                                                                                                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
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                                                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 9149 From: curmudgeon Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                        The only time I ever saw an All-Nation NW with the vertical motor was if someone ordered a "tinplate" unit.
                                                                                                                                                        I have 2 powered and one dummy.
                                                                                                                                                        They could still use the field-wound motors and sequential reverse.

                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > Early ones had a single power truck mounted into the cab. gj
                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                        > From: keith gutshall
                                                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > Hello John
                                                                                                                                                        > The look like All-Nation 0-scale NW-2 to me .
                                                                                                                                                        > I have one and the drives look the same.
                                                                                                                                                        > The other one I have has a differant drive in it, or it has be repowered?
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > Keith
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > Deep Run Portage
                                                                                                                                                        > Back Shop
                                                                                                                                                        > " The Lizard Works"
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > --- On Tue, 3/24/09, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Tuesday, March 24, 2009, 10:35 PM
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > That is a General Models Corp drive or possibly All Nation as All Nation purchased the General Models line when they went belly up. Couldn't be Lindsay as they never entered the O scale market so far as I know.
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > At $176 plus change the winner got them for a fair price. Up until rather recently it would have been possible to purchase a new All Nation 8 wheel drive for the dummy but I do not know if they are presently still available. Haven't kept up with O scale since returning to HO a few yrears back. I always kept my eyes open for a good deal on one of those switchers at the time but never found one at the same time I could afford it.
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > Here's another maker of diecast diesels I've never seen before. Are these Lindsay drives?
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > If I could have an extra train room and budget, I'd like to collect early diecast switchers.
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > TWO GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2 ENGINES
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        > > Item number: 330315341467
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                        > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.27/2021 - Release Date: 03/24/09 16:00:00
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 9150 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: Another One - Just for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                                        TOO COOL
                                                                                                                                                        Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                        > From: "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...>
                                                                                                                                                        > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: [vintageHO] Another One - Just for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                                        > Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 00:01:25 -0000
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > I have added a couple of photos in my Cinder Valley album that I
                                                                                                                                                        > think many of you will get a chuckle out of.
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > They are of a 4-4-4-4-6T tank locomotive drag racing machine. It
                                                                                                                                                        > was built from a Penn Line Pennsy T-1. Why? Well, the local NMRA
                                                                                                                                                        > division conducted a series of HO drag races a few years ago at
                                                                                                                                                        > their annual Jamboree. It was called the Kodtrak Challange Cup and
                                                                                                                                                        > anything went as long as it was fast and could fit through an HO
                                                                                                                                                        > tunnel portal.
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > The T-1 was powered by a huge motor that completely fills the rear
                                                                                                                                                        > tank extension. This motor came from one of those radio controlled
                                                                                                                                                        > race cars that you used to see flying around the mall parking lots.
                                                                                                                                                        > This motor drove through a Hobbytown gear tower regeared with the
                                                                                                                                                        > low speed gears but with the gears reversed to increase the speed.
                                                                                                                                                        > The gear tower drove two worms going to the original Penn Line
                                                                                                                                                        > gears. The two engines were locked together by fashioning a single
                                                                                                                                                        > bottom frame cover plate that covered both of them.
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > The two tracks were a straight HO scale quarter mile with two HO
                                                                                                                                                        > tunnel portals at the end, exiting into an inertia braking system,
                                                                                                                                                        > (box of rags). One switch applied full 12 volts to both tracks at
                                                                                                                                                        > the same time. When the switch was thrown this beast burned the
                                                                                                                                                        > rails with a blur of drivers, rods and valve gear. Kudos to Penn
                                                                                                                                                        > Line for reliable mechanics!
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > The first photo shows the locomotive and the second also shows the
                                                                                                                                                        > trophys we won. More about this later.
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >


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                                                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 9151 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                        the late S. F. ("Tony") Thomas--originally from Denver--had one with the
                                                                                                                                                        single truck drive and 2-rail--he was a member of the Denver O Scale club.
                                                                                                                                                        His family kept the loco--I have a request for it if they ever want to
                                                                                                                                                        dispose of it--as it was painted (CB&Q) by the late Bruce Bechtold (Back
                                                                                                                                                        Shop) who was Tony's college roommate.

                                                                                                                                                        This one could well have been either Atwater or GMC--he also had an F-3 A &
                                                                                                                                                        B units that I repainted for him--Rio Grande Black & yellow--
                                                                                                                                                        gj

                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                        From: "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                        To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:16 AM
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2


                                                                                                                                                        > The only time I ever saw an All-Nation NW with the vertical motor was if
                                                                                                                                                        > someone ordered a "tinplate" unit.
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 9152 From: jim heckard Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: clarify IMP type drives
                                                                                                                                                        Jay, Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                 A little or a lot of confusion about the types of drives in International HO O-1's ONLY. Someone stated vertically mounted motor powering one set of drivers and a coiled spring belt  to power the other. I figure it is meant there is a pulley on each driver. I have seen this setup on other types of engines but my O-1 is different and I ask how to decide the earliest , middle, and latest assuming there were 3 versions.
                                                                                                                                                              I sent 4 pictures before I had to leave. The second picture is the drive for my first picture. It has the vertically mounted motor and the shaft/worm gear powers the one set of drivers. The difference is that there are a number of gears, not a spring, going from the powered driver to the other driver. Is this the earliest IMP O-1 or is the one describe above the earliest ??
                                                                                                                                                             My 4th picture (not very clear) shows the drive for my second type of IMP O-1 (3rd picture). It has a horizontal motor with pulley/ coil spring  that powers a horizontal drive shaft that is geared to both drivers. Is this the third production ??.
                                                                                                                                                             These engines have not been modified. I'm wondering are we wrong in saying only 3 versions, 3 drives considering how many IMP O-1engines might have been produced for others. I'm not saying you / we are wrong just very curious. If it's at all possible can someone, even others out there I know who have very good International information, list the types drives in each type especially if they very from what has been discussed and the order or year poduced ??
                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Jim H
                                                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 9153 From: curmudgeon Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                        I know we're getting WAY off Half Zero topic, but you've not lived until you've seen an Atwater F-3 with fluid drive.......


                                                                                                                                                        > the late S. F. ("Tony") Thomas--originally from Denver--had one with the
                                                                                                                                                        > single truck drive and 2-rail--he was a member of the Denver O Scale club.
                                                                                                                                                        > His family kept the loco--I have a request for it if they ever want to
                                                                                                                                                        > dispose of it--as it was painted (CB&Q) by the late Bruce Bechtold (Back
                                                                                                                                                        > Shop) who was Tony's college roommate.
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > This one could well have been either Atwater or GMC--he also had an F-3 A &
                                                                                                                                                        > B units that I repainted for him--Rio Grande Black & yellow--
                                                                                                                                                        > gj
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                        > From: "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                        > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:16 AM
                                                                                                                                                        > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: GENERAL MODELS CORP. NW-2
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        > > The only time I ever saw an All-Nation NW with the vertical motor was if
                                                                                                                                                        > > someone ordered a "tinplate" unit.
                                                                                                                                                        > >
                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                        Group: vintageHO Message: 9154 From: jim heckard Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                        Subject: IMP P-5 Modified
                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                             Jay, Charles W, Chuck, All ,
                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                    Jay             You mentioned you have one, this is mine.
                                                                                                                                                                    Charles W   You seem to enjoy the pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck H        If not in album add. If in forget and chock it up to my senility
                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                  This is in top shape. The original couplers still on it. Just thought you would like to see. I really like the style / look of this engine.
                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9155 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: clarify IMP type drives
                                                                                                                                                          Jim H, Gerold, & All!

                                                                                                                                                          Jim you could be compoletely right about the assumption that,"only 3 versions, 3 drives." I took a big leap of faith in making that assumption!

                                                                                                                                                          I will stand by the chronological changes in body styles though, which I'll temporarilly label Phasas I, II, and III. As I said, I will document them with the ads and photographs list sometime this weekend and create a file here for the list.

                                                                                                                                                          As I just arrived home, I read your message again and went down and opened up my complete model, what I'll label a Phase II body. My drive consists of two geared axles, connected to a horiozontal geared shaft. At one endof the shaft is a knurled pulley. A "Pittman-style" motor is mounted horzontally avove the frame with an "L" bracket, the motor also has a pulley which is connected to the horizontal shaft's pulley with a sring belt.

                                                                                                                                                          I think I have pretty much described your model as well, from what I can tell in the small thumbnails, (For some reason, I have been having problems opening them up to a larger view, not just. here but on the Yahoo NYCMTM group as well).

                                                                                                                                                          From the little I know, I believe International was the only firm that imported the PRR style locomotives as Barnet was a NYC guy, in sync with East Coast model rails at the time. Ken Kidder, on the West Coast, generally favoring West Coast and midwest prototypes, and athough he did boxcabs and generic ones, do not believe (at this time, anyway) that he produced high wheeled types).

                                                                                                                                                          To complicate matters though, I can speculate that both International and Kidder may have used some of the same factories for their individual models.

                                                                                                                                                          The instructions, labeled "International Models" printed on a flimsy manila type construction paper, show this drive layout that corresponds to my model - the box, instructions and model came from the original owner.

                                                                                                                                                          I am familiar with the geared arrangement between axles that is seen on other International imports, and have one such mechanism with much smaller 45-50" smaller spoked, sand cast wheels, probably from a genric boxcab or Baldwin style electric.

                                                                                                                                                          Maybe ther are others who can take a closer look at their examples, too?

                                                                                                                                                          Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          > Jay, Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                          > A little or a lot of confusion about the types of drives in International HO O-1's ONLY. Someone stated vertically mounted motor powering one set of drivers and a coiled spring belt to power the other. I figure it is meant there is a pulley on each driver. I have seen this setup on other types of engines but my O-1 is different and I ask how to decide the earliest , middle, and latest assuming there were 3 versions.
                                                                                                                                                          > I sent 4 pictures before I had to leave. The second picture is the drive for my first picture. It has the vertically mounted motor and the shaft/worm gear powers the one set of drivers. The difference is that there are a number of gears, not a spring, going from the powered driver to the other driver. Is this the earliest IMP O-1 or is the one describe above the earliest ??
                                                                                                                                                          > My 4th picture (not very clear) shows the drive for my second type of IMP O-1 (3rd picture). It has a horizontal motor with pulley/ coil spring that powers a horizontal drive shaft that is geared to both drivers. Is this the third production ??.
                                                                                                                                                          > These engines have not been modified. I'm wondering are we wrong in saying only 3 versions, 3 drives considering how many IMP O-1engines might have been produced for others. I'm not saying you / we are wrong just very curious. If it's at all possible can someone, even others out there I know who have very good International information, list the types drives in each type especially if they very from what has been discussed and the order or year poduced ??
                                                                                                                                                          > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9156 From: jim heckard Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: clarify IMP type drives
                                                                                                                                                                     Your description of the Phase II drive is the same as mine.  The Phase I drive (vertical motor driving one axle) seems to be different in Gerold's and mine for driving the second axle. His has a pulley on each axle driven by a coil spring (If I read right) where mine has the little gears between the drivers for power to the second axle. This is where my confusion comes in.
                                                                                                                                                                    I will wait for your description of the Phase III.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 4:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: clarify IMP type drives

                                                                                                                                                          Jim H, Gerold, & All!

                                                                                                                                                          Jim you could be compoletely right about the assumption that,"only 3 versions, 3 drives." I took a big leap of faith in making that assumption!

                                                                                                                                                          I will stand by the chronological changes in body styles though, which I'll temporarilly label Phasas I, II, and III. As I said, I will document them with the ads and photographs list sometime this weekend and create a file here for the list.

                                                                                                                                                          As I just arrived home, I read your message again and went down and opened up my complete model, what I'll label a Phase II body. My drive consists of two geared axles, connected to a horiozontal geared shaft. At one endof the shaft is a knurled pulley. A "Pittman-style" motor is mounted horzontally avove the frame with an "L" bracket, the motor also has a pulley which is connected to the horizontal shaft's pulley with a sring belt.

                                                                                                                                                          I think I have pretty much described your model as well, from what I can tell in the small thumbnails, (For some reason, I have been having problems opening them up to a larger view, not just. here but on the Yahoo NYCMTM group as well).

                                                                                                                                                          From the little I know, I believe International was the only firm that imported the PRR style locomotives as Barnet was a NYC guy, in sync with East Coast model rails at the time. Ken Kidder, on the West Coast, generally favoring West Coast and midwest prototypes, and athough he did boxcabs and generic ones, do not believe (at this time, anyway) that he produced high wheeled types).

                                                                                                                                                          To complicate matters though, I can speculate that both International and Kidder may have used some of the same factories for their individual models.

                                                                                                                                                          The instructions, labeled "International Models" printed on a flimsy manila type construction paper, show this drive layout that corresponds to my model - the box, instructions and model came from the original owner.

                                                                                                                                                          I am familiar with the geared arrangement between axles that is seen on other International imports, and have one such mechanism with much smaller 45-50" smaller spoked, sand cast wheels, probably from a genric boxcab or Baldwin style electric.

                                                                                                                                                          Maybe ther are others who can take a closer look at their examples, too?

                                                                                                                                                          Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          > Jay, Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                          > A little or a lot of confusion about the types of drives in International HO O-1's ONLY. Someone stated vertically mounted motor powering one set of drivers and a coiled spring belt to power the other. I figure it is meant there is a pulley on each driver. I have seen this setup on other types of engines but my O-1 is different and I ask how to decide the earliest , middle, and latest assuming there were 3 versions.
                                                                                                                                                          > I sent 4 pictures before I had to leave. The second picture is the drive for my first picture. It has the vertically mounted motor and the shaft/worm gear powers the one set of drivers. The difference is that there are a number of gears, not a spring, going from the powered driver to the other driver. Is this the earliest IMP O-1 or is the one describe above the earliest ??
                                                                                                                                                          > My 4th picture (not very clear) shows the drive for my second type of IMP O-1 (3rd picture). It has a horizontal motor with pulley/ coil spring that powers a horizontal drive shaft that is geared to both drivers. Is this the third production ??.
                                                                                                                                                          > These engines have not been modified. I'm wondering are we wrong in saying only 3 versions, 3 drives considering how many IMP O-1engines might have been produced for others. I'm not saying you / we are wrong just very curious. If it's at all possible can someone, even others out there I know who have very good International information, list the types drives in each type especially if they very from what has been discussed and the order or year poduced ??
                                                                                                                                                          > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9157 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: clarify IMP type drives
                                                                                                                                                          Hi All,

                                                                                                                                                          first - my apology, my memory fooled me , I have the version with the
                                                                                                                                                          vertical shaft motor and the gears connecting the two axles. Did not
                                                                                                                                                          check when typing the respective message. Either I have confused her
                                                                                                                                                          with a ACE JNR ED14.4 ( B'B' boxcab) which definitely has spring belt
                                                                                                                                                          "connecting" or with a picture of an O1c I have seen somewhere ... sorry.
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          > Jim you could be compoletely right about the assumption that,"only 3 versions, 3 drives." I took a big leap of faith in making that assumption!
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          An uneducated guess: Maybe there were some with an vertical shaft AC
                                                                                                                                                          motor in the beginning, have seen several boxcabs ( the mentioned ED14,
                                                                                                                                                          but also the ED16s ) with this motor. Have put a (diode) rectifier in
                                                                                                                                                          the ED14 but it is weak and sluggish.
                                                                                                                                                          -- Just took out some models (ED11, ED14, ED16, ED17, from the display
                                                                                                                                                          cabinet , or the respective boxes where the basket cases are stored, and
                                                                                                                                                          found that those which have a spring belt driving the second axle ALL
                                                                                                                                                          have an AC motor. Maybe a coincidence....

                                                                                                                                                          > I will stand by the chronological changes in body styles though, which I'll temporarilly label Phasas I, II, and III. As I said, I will document them with the ads and photographs list sometime this weekend and create a file here for the list.
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          > As I just arrived home, I read your message again and went down and opened up my complete model, what I'll label a Phase II body. My drive consists of two geared axles, connected to a horiozontal geared shaft. At one endof the shaft is a knurled pulley. A "Pittman-style" motor is mounted horzontally avove the frame with an "L" bracket, the motor also has a pulley which is connected to the horizontal shaft's pulley with a sring belt.
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          > I think I have pretty much described your model as well, from what I can tell in the small thumbnails, (For some reason, I have been having problems opening them up to a larger view, not just. here but on the Yahoo NYCMTM group as well).
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          > >From the little I know, I believe International was the only firm that imported the PRR style locomotives as Barnet was a NYC guy, in sync with East Coast model rails at the time. Ken Kidder, on the West Coast, generally favoring West Coast and midwest prototypes, and athough he did boxcabs and generic ones, do not believe (at this time, anyway) that he produced high wheeled types).
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          KK apparently picked up what was available in Japan hoping to sell
                                                                                                                                                          Japanese prototypes as stand ins for US types. Some of them looked
                                                                                                                                                          quite convincing, the small ED11 / ED 14 boxcabs looked like baby
                                                                                                                                                          Milwaukee boxcabs, the ED 17 carbody is quite similiar to the N&W LC1
                                                                                                                                                          type. There were also numerous models of the medium sized ED17.22.

                                                                                                                                                          > To complicate matters though, I can speculate that both International and Kidder may have used some of the same factories for their individual models.
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          They surely did...,amongst others.



                                                                                                                                                          GEM and LMB come to my mind; some small steam locos showed up in many
                                                                                                                                                          different catalogs. . From all I have learned, this seems to have been a
                                                                                                                                                          bewildering system of contractors, subcontractors ( often "one man
                                                                                                                                                          companies" ) which sold their stuff to anybody willing to pay for it

                                                                                                                                                          > The instructions, labeled "International Models" printed on a flimsy manila type construction paper, show this drive layout that corresponds to my model - the box, instructions and model came from the original owner.
                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                          > I am familiar with the geared arrangement between axles that is seen on other International imports, and have one such mechanism with much smaller 45-50" smaller spoked, sand cast wheels, probably from a genric boxcab or Baldwin style electric.
                                                                                                                                                          This may be a drive from either a ED11 or ED17, most of them had spoked
                                                                                                                                                          drivers, the ED14s I have all have solid ones. If you send me a picture
                                                                                                                                                          I most likely will be able to identify it.

                                                                                                                                                          Gerold
                                                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9158 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: IMP P-5 Modified

                                                                                                                                                          Photo loaded, but I missed what it is.  Please let me know and I will edit the description.

                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                          Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                          From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] IMP P-5 Modified

                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                             Jay, Charles W, Chuck, All ,

                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                    Jay             You mentioned you have one, this is mine.

                                                                                                                                                                    Charles W   You seem to enjoy the pictures.

                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck H        If not in album add. If in forget and chock it up to my senility

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                  This is in top shape. The original couplers still on it. Just thought you would like to see. I really like the style / look of this engine.

                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                          Group: vintageHO Message: 9159 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: Another One - Just for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                            Well, this is totally off topic, it's not Vintage, but I'm the moderator, so
                                                                                                                                                            I can get away with it, so there!!!! Nya Nya!!!

                                                                                                                                                            You wanna talk about "fantasy" locomotives, I challenge you to beat my
                                                                                                                                                            "Munchkin Locomotive Works GFA-1"

                                                                                                                                                            (For those who care, Body is from an AHM GG-1, fans from an Athearn F-7,
                                                                                                                                                            drive is a Model Power/Roco Alco FA)

                                                                                                                                                            Don

                                                                                                                                                            Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                            don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                            http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                            http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                            Owner
                                                                                                                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                            From: "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...>
                                                                                                                                                            To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Another One - Just for the fun of it


                                                                                                                                                            >I have added a couple of photos in my Cinder Valley album that I think many
                                                                                                                                                            >of you will get a chuckle out of.
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > They are of a 4-4-4-4-6T tank locomotive drag racing machine. It was
                                                                                                                                                            > built from a Penn Line Pennsy T-1. Why? Well, the local NMRA division
                                                                                                                                                            > conducted a series of HO drag races a few years ago at their annual
                                                                                                                                                            > Jamboree. It was called the Kodtrak Challange Cup and anything went as
                                                                                                                                                            > long as it was fast and could fit through an HO tunnel portal.
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > The T-1 was powered by a huge motor that completely fills the rear tank
                                                                                                                                                            > extension. This motor came from one of those radio controlled race cars
                                                                                                                                                            > that you used to see flying around the mall parking lots. This motor
                                                                                                                                                            > drove through a Hobbytown gear tower regeared with the low speed gears but
                                                                                                                                                            > with the gears reversed to increase the speed. The gear tower drove two
                                                                                                                                                            > worms going to the original Penn Line gears. The two engines were locked
                                                                                                                                                            > together by fashioning a single bottom frame cover plate that covered both
                                                                                                                                                            > of them.
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > The two tracks were a straight HO scale quarter mile with two HO tunnel
                                                                                                                                                            > portals at the end, exiting into an inertia braking system, (box of rags).
                                                                                                                                                            > One switch applied full 12 volts to both tracks at the same time. When
                                                                                                                                                            > the switch was thrown this beast burned the rails with a blur of drivers,
                                                                                                                                                            > rods and valve gear. Kudos to Penn Line for reliable mechanics!
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > The first photo shows the locomotive and the second also shows the trophys
                                                                                                                                                            > we won. More about this later.
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9160 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Another One - Just for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                                            LOL
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            This almost has a prototype.
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            I remember years ago(late 1970's) in Trains Magazine, there was a pic of half a GG-1 that was being used as a shop switcher.
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            The poster's comment was, "Wouldn't two of these make a wonderful locomotive?"
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Interesting loco, Don!
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

                                                                                                                                                            --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                            From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Another One - Just for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                            Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 7:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                            Well, this is totally off topic, it's not Vintage, but I'm the moderator, so
                                                                                                                                                            I can get away with it, so there!!!!  Nya Nya!!!

                                                                                                                                                            You wanna talk about "fantasy" locomotives, I challenge you to beat my
                                                                                                                                                            "Munchkin Locomotive Works GFA-1"

                                                                                                                                                            (For those who care, Body is from an AHM GG-1, fans from an Athearn F-7,
                                                                                                                                                            drive is a Model Power/Roco Alco FA)

                                                                                                                                                            Don

                                                                                                                                                            Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                            don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                            http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                            http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                            Owner
                                                                                                                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                            From: "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...>
                                                                                                                                                            To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Another One - Just for the fun of it


                                                                                                                                                            >I have added a couple of photos in my Cinder Valley album that I think many
                                                                                                                                                            >of you will get a chuckle out of.
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > They are of a 4-4-4-4-6T tank locomotive drag racing machine.  It was
                                                                                                                                                            > built from a Penn Line Pennsy T-1.  Why?  Well, the local NMRA division
                                                                                                                                                            > conducted a series of HO drag races a few years ago at their annual
                                                                                                                                                            > Jamboree.  It was called the Kodtrak Challange Cup and anything went as
                                                                                                                                                            > long as it was fast and could fit through an HO tunnel portal.
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > The T-1 was powered by a huge motor that completely fills the rear tank
                                                                                                                                                            > extension.  This motor came from one of those radio controlled race cars
                                                                                                                                                            > that you used to see flying around the mall parking lots.  This motor
                                                                                                                                                            > drove through a Hobbytown gear tower regeared with the low speed gears but
                                                                                                                                                            > with the gears reversed to increase the speed.  The gear tower drove two
                                                                                                                                                            > worms going to the original Penn Line gears.  The two engines were locked
                                                                                                                                                            > together by fashioning a single bottom frame cover plate that covered both
                                                                                                                                                            > of them.
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > The two tracks were a straight HO scale quarter mile with two HO tunnel
                                                                                                                                                            > portals at the end, exiting into an inertia braking system, (box of rags).
                                                                                                                                                            > One switch applied full 12 volts to both tracks at the same time.  When
                                                                                                                                                            > the switch was thrown this beast burned the rails with a blur of drivers,
                                                                                                                                                            > rods and valve gear.  Kudos to Penn Line for reliable mechanics!
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > The first photo shows the locomotive and the second also shows the trophys
                                                                                                                                                            > we won.  More about this later.
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > Bill DeFoe


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                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9161 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
                                                                                                                                                            O scale does creep in on occasion, but I do like to keep the subject to HO.

                                                                                                                                                            Can't find an O scale group? Start one. That's what I did for this group
                                                                                                                                                            and it's grown to be my favorite group on Yahoo.
                                                                                                                                                            (And that's SOLELY due to the GREAT bunch of guys we have here).

                                                                                                                                                            Thanks

                                                                                                                                                            Don

                                                                                                                                                            Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                            don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                            http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                            http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                            Owner
                                                                                                                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                            From: "louis niederlander" <l_niederlander@...>
                                                                                                                                                            To: <vintageho@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside
                                                                                                                                                            Specialties Connection



                                                                                                                                                            i am amazed at all of the O scale vintage data. Is there a vintage O scale
                                                                                                                                                            yahoo Group? There doesn't seem to be any objection to bringing vintage o
                                                                                                                                                            scale into the messages.



                                                                                                                                                            I am in a club in Bedford Ohio. Its original layout included O scale with
                                                                                                                                                            lots of really old guys as members (I started when I was 15). I remember
                                                                                                                                                            seeing many of the hand crafted locomotives and trolleys.



                                                                                                                                                            Regards,



                                                                                                                                                            Louis N








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                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9162 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: REA Baggage Cars
                                                                                                                                                            Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            I have a friend who doesn't like to get online for anything, but is building a model of an old REA baggage car, he has one kitbashed already, with 3 side doors, what he needs most is the numbers, as the picture he has seems to have the car numbers blurred out, anyone know what numbers these cars ran under, I believe they ran mostly on SAL, ACL, maybe they ran throughout the eastern seaboard, I'm certainly not familiar with these cars, does anyone know of any clear pictures of these cars online anywhere?????:o)
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Gary W
                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9163 From: Bill DeFoe Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Another One - Just for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > TOO COOL
                                                                                                                                                            > Charlie W.


                                                                                                                                                            Thanks Charlie, glad you enjoyed it.

                                                                                                                                                            Those races were a ton of fun and you can't believe the yelling and cheering coming from a group of grown men as they supported their favorites.

                                                                                                                                                            One entry was a motorized boxcar. I never saw inside it but it had so much torque that it lept sideways at the starting gate and wiped out both himself and his opponent. Another was propeller driven like a model airplane.

                                                                                                                                                            I must elaborate on those trophys. Most were not won for winning races because Dennis Lippert would always beat me with a rubber band drive Athearn Hustler which he had modified by moving the large pulley up to the motor shaft and no pulleys on the axles. My top speed was higher but with the Hustler's lighter weight it jumped off the line quicker and I usually couldn't catch him. So now you know the truth. Three of those trophys were for the "Most Spectacular Entry" and not for winning the race.

                                                                                                                                                            One of the funniest was when C. J. Riley placed a PFM Shay on the starting line. We were all wondering what he did to modify it. He didn't. It was completely stock. Everyone roared with laughter as it worked it's way down that 1/4 mile. It seemed to take forever.

                                                                                                                                                            Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9164 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Another One - Just for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                                            Oh...
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            I think it was 1977 at an NMRA Regional in Windsor, Onterio, that I saw T-shirts being sold. Nice ic of a Hsay with the wording,"Ephraim Shay Racing Team" emblazoned on them. $7 bucks... cute, eh? I wonder if anyone still has any... and would they be "vintage?"
                                                                                                                                                            Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

                                                                                                                                                            --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Bill DeFoe <defoe242@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                            From: Bill DeFoe <defoe242@...>
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another One - Just for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                            Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 7:40 PM

                                                                                                                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > TOO COOL
                                                                                                                                                            > Charlie W.


                                                                                                                                                            Thanks Charlie, glad you enjoyed it.

                                                                                                                                                            Those races were a ton of fun and you can't believe the yelling and cheering coming from a group of grown men as they supported their favorites.

                                                                                                                                                            One entry was a motorized boxcar.  I never saw inside it but it had so much torque that it lept sideways at the starting gate and wiped out both himself and his opponent.  Another was propeller driven like a model airplane.

                                                                                                                                                            I must elaborate on those trophys.  Most were not won for winning races because Dennis Lippert would always beat me with a rubber band drive Athearn Hustler which he had modified by moving the large pulley up to the motor shaft and no pulleys on the axles.  My top speed was higher but with the Hustler's lighter weight it jumped off the line quicker and I usually couldn't catch him. So now you know the truth.  Three of those trophys were for the "Most Spectacular Entry" and not for winning the race.

                                                                                                                                                            One of the funniest was when C. J. Riley placed a PFM Shay on the starting line.  We were all wondering what he did to modify it.  He didn't.  It was completely stock.  Everyone roared with laughter as it worked it's way down that 1/4 mile.  It seemed to take forever.

                                                                                                                                                            Bill DeFoe



                                                                                                                                                            ------------------------------------

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                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9165 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: 1st post; new; recalling Varney and wanting one again.....?
                                                                                                                                                            Just found this group recently. I've been quietly watching for a
                                                                                                                                                            bit, but you all have peaked my sentiments and freshened my early HO
                                                                                                                                                            memories. My first HO locomotive was a Varney Casey Jones 4-6-0. I
                                                                                                                                                            wanted something different, but I worked for a LONG time to earn
                                                                                                                                                            that. It had it's running quirks which befuddled a boy of my age
                                                                                                                                                            then, which was about 12 or 13. I don't know what ever happened to
                                                                                                                                                            that locomotive, but now I'd like to have one again, humble though it may be.

                                                                                                                                                            I bid briefly for one on ebay this morning, but lost to higher
                                                                                                                                                            bidder. (Retirement budget here) Am considering a partial one still
                                                                                                                                                            in ebay.

                                                                                                                                                            I also well remember Mantua loop couplers. I seem to recall they
                                                                                                                                                            worked well but we all probably know their appearance killed them as
                                                                                                                                                            well as their proprietary nature. Yup. I want 2 or 3 pairs of
                                                                                                                                                            Mantua couplers now too. (grin) Probably need an early Mantua car
                                                                                                                                                            or two also.

                                                                                                                                                            While I have no intention of becoming a big collector of vintage HO,
                                                                                                                                                            I would like to recapture a little of those feelings of long ago. I
                                                                                                                                                            still have my 1955 Varney catalog.

                                                                                                                                                            I've never lost those railroad interests and now it is some 50+ years
                                                                                                                                                            later. My modeling interests gave way often to railroad history
                                                                                                                                                            projects. That ultimately resulted in doing a couple of sizable
                                                                                                                                                            books which was satisfying.

                                                                                                                                                            I enjoy this group, thank you. A few things in life have let me
                                                                                                                                                            down, but railroad interests rarely have.

                                                                                                                                                            Dennis B. Thompson
                                                                                                                                                            Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state
                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9166 From: jim heckard Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: IMP P-5 Modified
                                                                                                                                                                International / IMP   P-5 modified (means streamlined version)   Layout progressing. Will be cutting a tunnel through the mountain close to were the trestle will be so I can have roads on the other side. Without it would look impossible to get there if it were real. Easier to cut and fit when the glue (hard shell) is dry. After fitting it in (just a PVC tube) very easy to finish off around it with glued material before Hydrocal rock cuts.
                                                                                                                                                                Broke down and ordered a number of items from Micro Mark. Will be ordering some from Walthers after I find a new catalog. Have to start searching for some used buildings, accessories like trees-telephone poles-rr crossing signs. Want to definitely get about 5 or 6 electric high tension towers (plastic is fine). Have 72 unpainted people I will fool around with now even though the last details to put on. Big plans, little money so it won't happen overnight.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:11 PM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: RE: [vintageHO] IMP P-5 Modified

                                                                                                                                                            Photo loaded, but I missed what it is.  Please let me know and I will edit the description.

                                                                                                                                                            Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

                                                                                                                                                            From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] IMP P-5 Modified

                                                                                                                                                               Jay, Charles W, Chuck, All ,

                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                      Jay             You mentioned you have one, this is mine.

                                                                                                                                                                      Charles W   You seem to enjoy the pictures.

                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck H        If not in album add. If in forget and chock it up to my senility

                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                    This is in top shape. The original couplers still on it. Just thought you would like to see. I really like the style / look of this engine.

                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9167 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
                                                                                                                                                            Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            There are a ton of O scale groups on yahoogroups, Otrains is the largest, Oscalekings, FloridaOscalers, Oscalers, ModernOscale, and oscaletrains, and that doesn'te even touch on the 3 rail groups on yahoo...........:o)
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Gary W
                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                            From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:36:35 PM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Connection

                                                                                                                                                            O scale does creep in on occasion, but I do like to keep the subject to HO.

                                                                                                                                                            Can't find an O scale group? Start one. That's what I did for this group
                                                                                                                                                            and it's grown to be my favorite group on Yahoo.
                                                                                                                                                            (And that's SOLELY due to the GREAT bunch of guys we have here).

                                                                                                                                                            Thanks

                                                                                                                                                            Don

                                                                                                                                                            Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                            don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                            http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                            http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                            Owner
                                                                                                                                                            http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                            http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                            From: "louis niederlander" <l_niederlander@ hotmail.com>
                                                                                                                                                            To: <vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside
                                                                                                                                                            Specialties Connection

                                                                                                                                                            i am amazed at all of the O scale vintage data. Is there a vintage O scale
                                                                                                                                                            yahoo Group? There doesn't seem to be any objection to bringing vintage o
                                                                                                                                                            scale into the messages.

                                                                                                                                                            I am in a club in Bedford Ohio. Its original layout included O scale with
                                                                                                                                                            lots of really old guys as members (I started when I was 15). I remember
                                                                                                                                                            seeing many of the hand crafted locomotives and trolleys.

                                                                                                                                                            Regards,

                                                                                                                                                            Louis N

                                                                                                                                                            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                                                                                                                                            Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast.
                                                                                                                                                            http://windowslive. com/online/ hotmail?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_HM_70faster_ 032009


                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9168 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: 1st post; new; recalling Varney and wanting one again.....?
                                                                                                                                                            I am 24 and I use mostly Mantua loop couplers myself. Much of my rolling stock, particularly my prewar wooden stuff, seems to work best with them, and they have a curious, but keen, look to them. Plus, I have a bunch of brass Mantua uncoupler ramps to go with.

                                                                                                                                                            I have a Varney Casey Jones that I am putting some work into. Seems there was a bad driver wheel axle throwing the whole thing off. Worked OK, just OK, when I got it, but I expect it to be an excellent performer when I get it going again. Am putting a few Varney 60' Utility coaches behind it, maybe a combine and two chair cars when it is done.

                                                                                                                                                            Don't worry about missing the one you saw- they're common on eBay.

                                                                                                                                                            I feel a bit sad to missed the early days of HO scale myself, and that I couldn't live it. But then, nothing says I can't recreate it!

                                                                                                                                                            You'll find the amount of information in this group is incredible! We got a great crew here!

                                                                                                                                                            Welcome!

                                                                                                                                                            -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                            --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                            From: Dennis Thompson <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] 1st post; new; recalling Varney and wanting one again.....?
                                                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                            Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 6:54 PM

                                                                                                                                                            Just found this group recently. I've been quietly watching for a
                                                                                                                                                            bit, but you all have peaked my sentiments and freshened my early HO
                                                                                                                                                            memories. My first HO locomotive was a Varney Casey Jones 4-6-0. I
                                                                                                                                                            wanted something different, but I worked for a LONG time to earn
                                                                                                                                                            that. It had it's running quirks which befuddled a boy of my age
                                                                                                                                                            then, which was about 12 or 13. I don't know what ever happened to
                                                                                                                                                            that locomotive, but now I'd like to have one again, humble though it may be.

                                                                                                                                                            I bid briefly for one on ebay this morning, but lost to higher
                                                                                                                                                            bidder. (Retirement budget here) Am considering a partial one still
                                                                                                                                                            in ebay.

                                                                                                                                                            I also well remember Mantua loop couplers. I seem to recall they
                                                                                                                                                            worked well but we all probably know their appearance killed them as
                                                                                                                                                            well as their proprietary nature. Yup. I want 2 or 3 pairs of
                                                                                                                                                            Mantua couplers now too. (grin) Probably need an early Mantua car
                                                                                                                                                            or two also.

                                                                                                                                                            While I have no intention of becoming a big collector of vintage HO,
                                                                                                                                                            I would like to recapture a little of those feelings of long ago. I
                                                                                                                                                            still have my 1955 Varney catalog.

                                                                                                                                                            I've never lost those railroad interests and now it is some 50+ years
                                                                                                                                                            later. My modeling interests gave way often to railroad history
                                                                                                                                                            projects. That ultimately resulted in doing a couple of sizable
                                                                                                                                                            books which was satisfying.

                                                                                                                                                            I enjoy this group, thank you. A few things in life have let me
                                                                                                                                                            down, but railroad interests rarely have.

                                                                                                                                                            Dennis B. Thompson
                                                                                                                                                            Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state
                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9169 From: bayerw@comcast.net Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
                                                                                                                                                            Sounds like there is a need for 2 distinct groups, Vintage0-2rail and Vintage0-3rail
                                                                                                                                                            Walter



                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                            From: "Gary Woodard" <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:26:22 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Connection

                                                                                                                                                            Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            There are a ton of O scale groups on yahoogroups, Otrains is the largest, Oscalekings, FloridaOscalers, Oscalers, ModernOscale, and oscaletrains, and that doesn'te even touch on the 3 rail groups on yahoo...........:o)
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Gary W
                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                            From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:36:35 PM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Connection

                                                                                                                                                            O scale does creep in on occasion, but I do like to keep the subject to HO.

                                                                                                                                                            Can't find an O scale group? Start one. That's what I did for this group
                                                                                                                                                            and it's grown to be my favorite group on Yahoo.
                                                                                                                                                            (And that's SOLELY due to the GREAT bunch of guys we have here).

                                                                                                                                                            Thanks

                                                                                                                                                            Don

                                                                                                                                                            Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                            don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                            http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                            http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                            Owner
                                                                                                                                                            http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                            http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                            From: "louis niederlander" <l_niederlander@ hotmail.com>
                                                                                                                                                            To: <vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside
                                                                                                                                                            Specialties Connection

                                                                                                                                                            i am amazed at all of the O scale vintage data. Is there a vintage O scale
                                                                                                                                                            yahoo Group? There doesn't seem to be any objection to bringing vintage o
                                                                                                                                                            scale into the messages.

                                                                                                                                                            I am in a club in Bedford Ohio. Its original layout included O scale with
                                                                                                                                                            lots of really old guys as members (I started when I was 15). I remember
                                                                                                                                                            seeing many of the hand crafted locomotives and trolleys.

                                                                                                                                                            Regards,

                                                                                                                                                            Louis N

                                                                                                                                                            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                                                                                                                                            Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast.
                                                                                                                                                            http://windowslive. com/online/ hotmail?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_HM_70faster_ 032009


                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9170 From: jim heckard Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: 1st post; new; recalling Varney and wanting one again.....?
                                                                                                                                                            Hi Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                          Welcome to the group. Glad to se HO trains has interested you for so long. Hopefully this group will peak you interest further.
                                                                                                                                                                     Like a lot of people our first engine cost a lot for a young person but that memory sticks with us for a long time. I still have my first engine, a Revell New Haven F-7. As a young boy  would sit and look at it and dream of a model railroad empire. That dream has lasted 50 years already. I have been fortunate in being able to expand those dreams but back then I never thought I would have what I have today.
                                                                                                                                                                     There will be more Varney 4-6-0 engines on Ebay and you will eventually get it if persistent. Lots of luck and Happy (Model) Railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] 1st post; new; recalling Varney and wanting one again.....?

                                                                                                                                                            Just found this group recently. I've been quietly watching for a
                                                                                                                                                            bit, but you all have peaked my sentiments and freshened my early HO
                                                                                                                                                            memories. My first HO locomotive was a Varney Casey Jones 4-6-0. I
                                                                                                                                                            wanted something different, but I worked for a LONG time to earn
                                                                                                                                                            that. It had it's running quirks which befuddled a boy of my age
                                                                                                                                                            then, which was about 12 or 13. I don't know what ever happened to
                                                                                                                                                            that locomotive, but now I'd like to have one again, humble though it may be.

                                                                                                                                                            I bid briefly for one on ebay this morning, but lost to higher
                                                                                                                                                            bidder. (Retirement budget here) Am considering a partial one still
                                                                                                                                                            in ebay.

                                                                                                                                                            I also well remember Mantua loop couplers. I seem to recall they
                                                                                                                                                            worked well but we all probably know their appearance killed them as
                                                                                                                                                            well as their proprietary nature. Yup. I want 2 or 3 pairs of
                                                                                                                                                            Mantua couplers now too. (grin) Probably need an early Mantua car
                                                                                                                                                            or two also.

                                                                                                                                                            While I have no intention of becoming a big collector of vintage HO,
                                                                                                                                                            I would like to recapture a little of those feelings of long ago. I
                                                                                                                                                            still have my 1955 Varney catalog.

                                                                                                                                                            I've never lost those railroad interests and now it is some 50+ years
                                                                                                                                                            later. My modeling interests gave way often to railroad history
                                                                                                                                                            projects. That ultimately resulted in doing a couple of sizable
                                                                                                                                                            books which was satisfying.

                                                                                                                                                            I enjoy this group, thank you. A few things in life have let me
                                                                                                                                                            down, but railroad interests rarely have.

                                                                                                                                                            Dennis B. Thompson
                                                                                                                                                            Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state
                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9171 From: jimwatermanboeing Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
                                                                                                                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > Hi Matt C, Gerold E, Chris B and Jim Waterman (and All),
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > I did not think I'd have the opportunity to tell this story so soon, and was going to use it in an article, but I'll give it up now, so here goes:
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > "A few years ago, I was surprised to discover that Jan Lorenzen of The Locomotive Workship (and inductee to the O Scale Hall of Fame in 2005)was associated with the production of the Trackside Specialties HO scale PRR Boxcabs of the 1960's for Vincent Waterman (himself an inductee to the O Scale Hall of fame in 2004)!"
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > "I met Jan Lorenzen at a New York Society of Model Engineers (NYSME) swap meet a couple of years before his untimely passing and here is how I discovered that interesting vintage HO connection. A friend and I had been admiring The Locomotive Workshp tables and my friend had spotted a modified Penn Line Locomotive in the midst of the impressive O scale kits. He asked me why Penn Line went out of business, and I gave him a brief reply."
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > "The boothholder then stepped in and said these amazing words, "I attended the Penn Line Bankruptcy Sale!" As I struggled to comprehend the impact of those words, my mind slammed into gear, thinking who else was there and immediately asked, "Do you know Vincent Waterman?" (I had been already looking for Mr. Waterman for a couple of years, trying to track down information on those wonderful PRR Boxcabs I had first seen as a young teen in the mid-1960's at a show sponsored by the Metropolitan Council of Model Railroads in a church basement in Parsippany, NJ around 1966.)"
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > "Tables turned, Mr. Lorenzen was rocked a bit by my unanticipated response to his mention of the bankruptsy sale, and he asked, "Why do you want to know?" So I told him what an impression those models has on me almost thirty years before, and how I had finally purchased a Trackside B-1 "rat" on eBay out of Texas, and was trying to track down Vince Watterman to find out more about the history of the models."
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > "At that point, a broad smile creased Mr. Lorenzen's face, as he told us, "I worked alongside Vincent Waterman to produce those models!" I could not believe what I was hearing, but spent the next few minutes discussing some of my all-time favorite models. He said he thought he had some production figures back at his shop and we exchanged email addresses."
                                                                                                                                                            >


                                                                                                                                                            This is Jim Waterman, son of Vince Waterman of Trackside Specialties.

                                                                                                                                                            I think I wrote about it in earlier posts, but yes, Jan was the real muscle behind my father's PRR models in the 1960's. Jan did all the artwork for the photoetched bodies, then formed and soldered the cabs together. For most of the models, the mechanisms came from others. Jan also did the small run of HC-1 2-8-8-0's that were made, and a couple of B-8's. The one that didn't quite make it to market was an L-6, primarily because a suitable mechanism could not be made at a decent price. Somewhere out there is a pilot model of it, with a sample Andeco mechanism.

                                                                                                                                                            My father's association with Jan remained through most of his life. My dad also picked up the balance of Lobaugh, which he split with Jan. My father was primarily a parts guy, Jan was better at producing whole kits or built up engines.

                                                                                                                                                            Jan was a very clever fellow, and produced a bunch of models over the years in different formats, some brass, some from rough aluminum castings.

                                                                                                                                                            He was a good friend of my father's as were his lovely family.

                                                                                                                                                            I miss both of them.

                                                                                                                                                            Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9172 From: louis niederlander Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
                                                                                                                                                            Actually there are plenty of vintage 3 rail groups.

                                                                                                                                                            PrewarOgauge trains comes to mind.

                                                                                                                                                            Regards,

                                                                                                                                                            Louis N



                                                                                                                                                            Sounds like there is a need for 2 distinct groups, Vintage0-2rail and Vintage0-3rail
                                                                                                                                                            Walter
                                                                                                                                                            _________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                            Windows Live™ SkyDrive: Get 25 GB of free online storage.
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                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9173 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Photos added to tottrain album
                                                                                                                                                            In a message dated 3/20/2009 6:18:54 PM EDT, toptrain2100 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                            I added 8 photos to my album. 1- Lionel E-33
                                                                                                                                                            ---------------
                                                                                                                                                            I kind of glossed over your message because I thought you meant a REAL E-33 (VGN EL-C), i.e. a C-C unit.  I just checked the photos you posted and realized that you meant Revell's SHORT (B-B) E-33 on a GP-9 chassis (with type B trucks?).  I picked up a body for one of these God-knows-where-or-when; it had been stripped of paint and had no pantograph or anything on it.  I've done several searches on the web and have come up with absolutely nothing on this motor, not even on HOSeeker.  Is there anything out there on the web about it?
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Ralph B.

                                                                                                                                                            Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less.
                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9174 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
                                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                                            I'd go for the 2-Rail if like the HO group.   gj
                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                            From: bayerw@...
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 5:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Connection

                                                                                                                                                            Sounds like there is a need for 2 distinct groups, Vintage0-2rail and Vintage0-3rail
                                                                                                                                                            Walter



                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                            From: "Gary Woodard" <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:26:22 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Connection

                                                                                                                                                            Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            There are a ton of O scale groups on yahoogroups, Otrains is the largest, Oscalekings, FloridaOscalers, Oscalers, ModernOscale, and oscaletrains, and that doesn'te even touch on the 3 rail groups on yahoo...........:o)
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Gary W
                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                            From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:36:35 PM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Connection

                                                                                                                                                            O scale does creep in on occasion, but I do like to keep the subject to HO.

                                                                                                                                                            Can't find an O scale group? Start one. That's what I did for this group
                                                                                                                                                            and it's grown to be my favorite group on Yahoo.
                                                                                                                                                            (And that's SOLELY due to the GREAT bunch of guys we have here).

                                                                                                                                                            Thanks

                                                                                                                                                            Don

                                                                                                                                                            Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                            don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                            http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                            http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                            Owner
                                                                                                                                                            http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                            http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                            From: "louis niederlander" <l_niederlander@ hotmail.com>
                                                                                                                                                            To: <vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside
                                                                                                                                                            Specialties Connection

                                                                                                                                                            i am amazed at all of the O scale vintage data. Is there a vintage O scale
                                                                                                                                                            yahoo Group? There doesn't seem to be any objection to bringing vintage o
                                                                                                                                                            scale into the messages.

                                                                                                                                                            I am in a club in Bedford Ohio. Its original layout included O scale with
                                                                                                                                                            lots of really old guys as members (I started when I was 15). I remember
                                                                                                                                                            seeing many of the hand crafted locomotives and trolleys.

                                                                                                                                                            Regards,

                                                                                                                                                            Louis N

                                                                                                                                                            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                                                                                                                                            Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast.
                                                                                                                                                            http://windowslive. com/online/ hotmail?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_HM_70faster_ 032009



                                                                                                                                                            No virus found in this incoming message.
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                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9175 From: tadonahue Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Old Central Valley HO Models Question
                                                                                                                                                            HI, I've been a lurker for a couple of months and I think this is my first post.
                                                                                                                                                            My question regards George Hook's detail parts for his Central Valley Models, particularly ventilator cars and reefers.
                                                                                                                                                            Who cast those white metal parts for him?
                                                                                                                                                            Thank you.
                                                                                                                                                            Tom Donahue
                                                                                                                                                            Melbourne, FL
                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9176 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/25/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
                                                                                                                                                            Hi Walter,
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Considering that O scale doesn't seem to suffer from the same things that HO does, theres plenty of 3 rail groups, as well as 2 rail groups, and vintage gets covered pretty well, since the O scale community is considerably smaller than the HO community...............:o)
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Gary W
                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                            From: "bayerw@..." <bayerw@...>
                                                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:49:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Connection

                                                                                                                                                            Sounds like there is a need for 2 distinct groups, Vintage0-2rail and Vintage0-3rail
                                                                                                                                                            Walter



                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                            From: "Gary Woodard" <betsy662@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:26:22 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Connection

                                                                                                                                                            Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            There are a ton of O scale groups on yahoogroups, Otrains is the largest, Oscalekings, FloridaOscalers, Oscalers, ModernOscale, and oscaletrains, and that doesn'te even touch on the 3 rail groups on yahoo....... ....:o)
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Gary W
                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                            From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
                                                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:36:35 PM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Connection

                                                                                                                                                            O scale does creep in on occasion, but I do like to keep the subject to HO.

                                                                                                                                                            Can't find an O scale group? Start one. That's what I did for this group
                                                                                                                                                            and it's grown to be my favorite group on Yahoo.
                                                                                                                                                            (And that's SOLELY due to the GREAT bunch of guys we have here).

                                                                                                                                                            Thanks

                                                                                                                                                            Don

                                                                                                                                                            Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                            don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                            http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                            http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                            Owner
                                                                                                                                                            http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                            http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                            From: "louis niederlander" <l_niederlander@ hotmail.com>
                                                                                                                                                            To: <vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside
                                                                                                                                                            Specialties Connection

                                                                                                                                                            i am amazed at all of the O scale vintage data. Is there a vintage O scale
                                                                                                                                                            yahoo Group? There doesn't seem to be any objection to bringing vintage o
                                                                                                                                                            scale into the messages.

                                                                                                                                                            I am in a club in Bedford Ohio. Its original layout included O scale with
                                                                                                                                                            lots of really old guys as members (I started when I was 15). I remember
                                                                                                                                                            seeing many of the hand crafted locomotives and trolleys.

                                                                                                                                                            Regards,

                                                                                                                                                            Louis N

                                                                                                                                                            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                                                                                                                                            Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast.
                                                                                                                                                            http://windowslive. com/online/ hotmail?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_HM_70faster_ 032009



                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9177 From: jim heckard Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Photos added to tottrain album
                                                                                                                                                            Ralph B,
                                                                                                                                                                         This plastic HO model engine was made by Athearn and Lionel. Since there are different runs it will be a little hard to type all the facts. If you happen to have Greenberg's two books  Guide to Athearn HO and Guide to Lionel HO you can find out all about them. Pictures too.
                                                                                                                                                                 If not I will try to answer your request . While I like Revell HO they didn't make this engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 10:56 PM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Photos added to tottrain album

                                                                                                                                                            In a message dated 3/20/2009 6:18:54 PM EDT, toptrain2100 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                            I added 8 photos to my album. 1- Lionel E-33
                                                                                                                                                            ------------ ---
                                                                                                                                                            I kind of glossed over your message because I thought you meant a REAL E-33 (VGN EL-C), i.e. a C-C unit.  I just checked the photos you posted and realized that you meant Revell's SHORT (B-B) E-33 on a GP-9 chassis (with type B trucks?).  I picked up a body for one of these God-knows-where- or-when; it had been stripped of paint and had no pantograph or anything on it.  I've done several searches on the web and have come up with absolutely nothing on this motor, not even on HOSeeker.  Is there anything out there on the web about it?
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Ralph B.

                                                                                                                                                            Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less.

                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9178 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Photos added to tottrain album
                                                                                                                                                            Revell ???

                                                                                                                                                            I've had a complete body with pantograph for decades now. I never did get/see the matching chassis for it. I recall reading ages ago that it was a Lionel product that used an Athearn geared drive.

                                                                                                                                                            Mine is in Virginian  colors and decals. The nose herald was damaged on mine and I've long intended to replace that with  a fresh decal.

                                                                                                                                                            I'll try to make some shots very late today and upload them.

                                                                                                                                                            Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                            Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                            Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                            On Mar 25, 2009, at 9:56 PM, Alpvalsys@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                            In a message dated 3/20/2009 6:18:54 PM EDT, toptrain2100 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                            I added 8 photos to my album. 1- Lionel E-33
                                                                                                                                                            ---------------
                                                                                                                                                            I kind of glossed over your message because I thought you meant a REAL E-33 (VGN EL-C), i.e. a C-C unit.  I just checked the photos you posted and realized that you meant Revell's SHORT (B-B) E-33 on a GP-9 chassis (with type B trucks?).  I picked up a body for one of these God-knows-where-or-when; it had been stripped of paint and had no pantograph or anything on it.  I've done several searches on the web and have come up with absolutely nothing on this motor, not even on HOSeeker.  Is there anything out there on the web about it?
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Ralph B.
                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9179 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Old Central Valley HO Models Question
                                                                                                                                                            Was it Alexander Models ???? I have a very old and faint memory of
                                                                                                                                                            reading that.........
                                                                                                                                                            Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                            Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                            Milwaukee Wi, USA


                                                                                                                                                            On Mar 25, 2009, at 9:41 PM, tadonahue wrote:

                                                                                                                                                            > HI, I've been a lurker for a couple of months and I think this is
                                                                                                                                                            > my first post.
                                                                                                                                                            > My question regards George Hook's detail parts for his Central
                                                                                                                                                            > Valley Models, particularly ventilator cars and reefers.
                                                                                                                                                            > Who cast those white metal parts for him?
                                                                                                                                                            > Thank you.
                                                                                                                                                            > Tom Donahue
                                                                                                                                                            > Melbourne, FL
                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9180 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Photos added to tottrain album
                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                            From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                            To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:47 AM
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Photos added to tottrain album


                                                                                                                                                            > Revell ???
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > I've had a complete body with pantograph for decades now. I never did
                                                                                                                                                            > get/see the matching chassis for it. I recall reading ages ago that
                                                                                                                                                            > it was a Lionel product that used an Athearn geared drive.
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > Mine is in Virginian colors and decals. The nose herald was damaged
                                                                                                                                                            > on mine and I've long intended to replace that with a fresh decal.
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > I'll try to make some shots very late today and upload them.
                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                            > Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                            > Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                            > Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                            Bring it over. It fits the Athearn GP-9 chassis.

                                                                                                                                                            Don

                                                                                                                                                            Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                            don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                            http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                            http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                            Owner
                                                                                                                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9181 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: Photos added to tottrain album
                                                                                                                                                            Most of the VGN EL-C electrics I saw were on Athearn mechanisms and were furnished by Athearn.  I had a close friend who modeled VGN and he owned numerous of them.

                                                                                                                                                            Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                            ================================================

                                                                                                                                                            Alpvalsys@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                            In a message dated 3/20/2009 6:18:54 PM EDT, toptrain2100 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                            I added 8 photos to my album. 1- Lionel E-33
                                                                                                                                                            ------------ ---
                                                                                                                                                            I kind of glossed over your message because I thought you meant a REAL E-33 (VGN EL-C), i.e. a C-C unit.  I just checked the photos you posted and realized that you meant Revell's SHORT (B-B) E-33 on a GP-9 chassis (with type B trucks?).  I picked up a body for one of these God-knows-where- or-when; it had been stripped of paint and had no pantograph or anything on it.  I've done several searches on the web and have come up with absolutely nothing on this motor, not even on HOSeeker.  Is there anything out there on the web about it?
                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                            Ralph B.

                                                                                                                                                            Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less.
                                                                                                                                                            Group: vintageHO Message: 9182 From: jim heckard Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Athesrn / Lionel E-33
                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                          The 3 pictures are of a Lionel E-33 body on a Lionel coil spring drive, not Athearn or RBD. I will try to write a brief explanation of how the HO version of the E-33 came about as it pertains to Athearn / Lionel.
                                                                                                                                                                  I will try to copy from both Greenberg's books Guide to Athearn Ho and Guide to Lionel HO. Hoping my poor one finger typing skills suffice.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                   Source   Greenberg's Guide to AthearnTrains    Page 36  Condensing a rather large paragraph " In 1958 Lionel wanted to have Athearn produce it's HO and stop it's association with Rivarossi. Under a picture of a VGN E-33 it states " Athearn's brief relationship with the Lionel Corp. yielded this unusual Virginian rectifier locomotive, which has an Athearn Hi-F drive (rubber band ) mechanism under a Lionel shell. Following the relationship with Athearn , Lionel designed it's own mechanism and offered it in New Haven and Pennsy liveries.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                            Page 72 same book    GE 'Virginian Rectifier    Under a picture    Made in conjunction with Lionel; offered for a limited time        Type A      Regular Athearn issue WITHOUT Lionel logo     Type B   Built by Lionel on short hood but using Athearn Hi-F drive. 
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                            Source    Greenberg's Guide to Lionel HO.  The entire story of the Lionel body, Lionel drive is explained in many different places in the book with pictures. Pages 23-24, 26-27   Way to much to type.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                             If I read it all right there were 3 distinct versions.      1    Was a Lionel body on an Athearn Hi-F drive. NO LIONEL LOGO and sold as Athearn..          2     Was a Lionel body on an Athearn Hi-F drive with the words " Built by Lionel" on the short hood and sold by Lionel.     Both of these were Virginian liveries        3    Was a Lionel body on a Lionel coil spring drive, not RBD drive. They added  New Haven and Pennsylvania paint schemes.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                 There is a real long history of the progression of this engine. To much to write. The above is enough to absorb.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9183 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Old Central Valley HO Models Question
                                                                                                                                                              Hi Tom,

                                                                                                                                                              Being that Central Valley's George Hook was already well established with his previous partnerships (Harry Weisse-sp?, Bob Lindsay) in the hobby in the late 1940's in California, it is likely that he used a local die caster there, as they all most probably did as well. That industry was well established there by war work requirements after WW 2.

                                                                                                                                                              Almost all of the hobby manufacturers farmed that type work out to specialists, one of many California specialists was Clarence Menteer of Model Die Casting (who did much industrial and non-model die casting work as well). I believe I read somewhere that Ulrich used MDC at one point for casting work, too. Advance Pressure Castings (Al Schnier, also an American Flyer standard gauge collector) in Denville, NJ was used by Pennsylvania Bowser much later, in the mid-1960's, at least for zinc based hard metal diecasting before Bowser established their own facilities in PA.

                                                                                                                                                              It has been suggested that there may have been a connection between Geo. Hook and Alexanader Products (not connected to model pioneer E.P. Alexander of Yardly, PA), but unless based on fact, speculate that might not be the case as Alexander was in the upper midwest, and shipping parts to California was still expensive at the time, (so expensive, the reason given why Varney moved to Chicago before WW 2. Anyone else who was a kid in the 1950's remember that national advertising always said prices of good were always higher west of the Rockies? Sometimes by as much as 10 percent due to transportation costs.)

                                                                                                                                                              And I believe, but not entirely sure, that all early Alexander parts were cast of white metal, not diecast zinc based metal like Central Valley, but could be mistaken, have to pull a kit and catalog and check tonight. In a much later time period, late 1960's, I believe, Alexander Products bought Dick Wheeler's MEW - Model Engineering Works line, that contained some unique diecast zinc based kits, such as the Grasse River Caboose and dump car, as well as the old Highballers old time passenger cars line that MEW/Wheeler had purchased previously. (HighBallers metal type will have to check as well, though.)

                                                                                                                                                              It would be interesting to know, though, but I think that is a detail only old records could tell us accurately. I'm not sure if we even know the various zinc metal die-casters that a major firm like Varney used over the years, with varying long term quality. The low bidder usually got the contract. The casting fell apart later, after everyone had made their money! The diecaster that Varney used for freight car and Docksider underframes in the 1960's should be sued for fraud!

                                                                                                                                                              Perhaps someone has some detailed information on Central Valley, or knows someone who worked there - there was someone who had a early days CV connection, who was selling misc. RR items on ebay serveral years ago...

                                                                                                                                                              Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "tadonahue" <tadonahue@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > HI, I've been a lurker for a couple of months and I think this is my first post.
                                                                                                                                                              > My question regards George Hook's detail parts for his Central Valley Models, particularly ventilator cars and reefers.
                                                                                                                                                              > Who cast those white metal parts for him?
                                                                                                                                                              > Thank you.
                                                                                                                                                              > Tom Donahue
                                                                                                                                                              > Melbourne, FL
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9184 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Another One - Just for the fun of it
                                                                                                                                                              Don
                                                                                                                                                              I was looking at it on the site and was truely inspired by the design, but kept thinking what would it look like with a Centipede Tender behind it.
                                                                                                                                                              Charlie W



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                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9185 From: Charles Windes Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: 1st post; new; recalling Varney and wanting one again.....?
                                                                                                                                                              Dennis
                                                                                                                                                              If I haven't, let me welcome you and I like to comment I get the biggest kick now out of not actually collecting the Vintage stuff, but in listening to the stories, and the pictures, it is indeed a great group. Indeed a good read and I learn a lot.
                                                                                                                                                              Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                              > From: "Dennis Thompson" <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                              > Subject: [vintageHO] 1st post; new; recalling Varney and wanting one again.....?
                                                                                                                                                              > Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:54:17 -0700
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Just found this group recently. I've been quietly watching for a
                                                                                                                                                              > bit, but you all have peaked my sentiments and freshened my early HO
                                                                                                                                                              > memories. My first HO locomotive was a Varney Casey Jones 4-6-0. I
                                                                                                                                                              > wanted something different, but I worked for a LONG time to earn
                                                                                                                                                              > that. It had it's running quirks which befuddled a boy of my age
                                                                                                                                                              > then, which was about 12 or 13. I don't know what ever happened to
                                                                                                                                                              > that locomotive, but now I'd like to have one again, humble though it may be.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > I bid briefly for one on ebay this morning, but lost to higher
                                                                                                                                                              > bidder. (Retirement budget here) Am considering a partial one still
                                                                                                                                                              > in ebay.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > I also well remember Mantua loop couplers. I seem to recall they
                                                                                                                                                              > worked well but we all probably know their appearance killed them as
                                                                                                                                                              > well as their proprietary nature. Yup. I want 2 or 3 pairs of
                                                                                                                                                              > Mantua couplers now too. (grin) Probably need an early Mantua car
                                                                                                                                                              > or two also.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > While I have no intention of becoming a big collector of vintage HO,
                                                                                                                                                              > I would like to recapture a little of those feelings of long ago. I
                                                                                                                                                              > still have my 1955 Varney catalog.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > I've never lost those railroad interests and now it is some 50+ years
                                                                                                                                                              > later. My modeling interests gave way often to railroad history
                                                                                                                                                              > projects. That ultimately resulted in doing a couple of sizable
                                                                                                                                                              > books which was satisfying.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > I enjoy this group, thank you. A few things in life have let me
                                                                                                                                                              > down, but railroad interests rarely have.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Dennis B. Thompson
                                                                                                                                                              > Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >


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                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9186 From: Wallace Tabor Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars
                                                                                                                                                              Hello

                                                                                                                                                              Let's have a little discussion on Mantua metal cars freight after World War

                                                                                                                                                              II.

                                                                                                                                                              Do any of you have a list of sides available for the reefers?

                                                                                                                                                              Wally Tabor
                                                                                                                                                              Guntersville, Alabama
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9187 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
                                                                                                                                                              Hi Jim, Good to Know You,

                                                                                                                                                              On my first day here, I searched the Trackside Specialties and Waterman name and immediately found your earlier posts and the great photos of the Trackside Specialties models (as well as

                                                                                                                                                              Funny, but when I was looking at those photos you have shared with us, particularly the FF2, I could not help but think they might have been prints made from the same negatives as photographs that Jan Lorenzen told me about in his 2001 email, "We do have some photographs of the engines, including FF2, and P5a. Of course, I am not sure where they are, probably in the office."

                                                                                                                                                              I have been compiling infomation on your dad's and Mr. Lorenzen's locomotives, to go with my models and hopefully share, so other collectors, in general brass and Pennsy collectors, know about their place in HO history and what very neat models they are. There was much new information in your posts which I learned for the first time. I also enjoyed your recollection of packing those boxes, as Jan's son also has some memory of them!

                                                                                                                                                              As I reorganize my information, I'll probably have more questions to ask. I had never expected to find you here when I first signed up, this is an amazing group!

                                                                                                                                                              Thanks as well to you for posting those great old Penn Line Photos. Botertown has not changed too much, but I'm mot sure if that real old building is still there. Also great that your dad saved the photographs for future generations.

                                                                                                                                                              Jay Wanczyk

                                                                                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jimwatermanboeing" <Watermaj@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                              > > Hi Matt C, Gerold E, Chris B and Jim Waterman (and All),
                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                              > > I did not think I'd have the opportunity to tell this story so soon, and was going to use it in an article, but I'll give it up now, so here goes:
                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                              > > "A few years ago, I was surprised to discover that Jan Lorenzen of The Locomotive Workship (and inductee to the O Scale Hall of Fame in 2005)was associated with the production of the Trackside Specialties HO scale PRR Boxcabs of the 1960's for Vincent Waterman (himself an inductee to the O Scale Hall of fame in 2004)!"
                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                              > > "I met Jan Lorenzen at a New York Society of Model Engineers (NYSME) swap meet a couple of years before his untimely passing and here is how I discovered that interesting vintage HO connection. A friend and I had been admiring The Locomotive Workshp tables and my friend had spotted a modified Penn Line Locomotive in the midst of the impressive O scale kits. He asked me why Penn Line went out of business, and I gave him a brief reply."
                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                              > > "The boothholder then stepped in and said these amazing words, "I attended the Penn Line Bankruptcy Sale!" As I struggled to comprehend the impact of those words, my mind slammed into gear, thinking who else was there and immediately asked, "Do you know Vincent Waterman?" (I had been already looking for Mr. Waterman for a couple of years, trying to track down information on those wonderful PRR Boxcabs I had first seen as a young teen in the mid-1960's at a show sponsored by the Metropolitan Council of Model Railroads in a church basement in Parsippany, NJ around 1966.)"
                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                              > > "Tables turned, Mr. Lorenzen was rocked a bit by my unanticipated response to his mention of the bankruptsy sale, and he asked, "Why do you want to know?" So I told him what an impression those models has on me almost thirty years before, and how I had finally purchased a Trackside B-1 "rat" on eBay out of Texas, and was trying to track down Vince Watterman to find out more about the history of the models."
                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                              > > "At that point, a broad smile creased Mr. Lorenzen's face, as he told us, "I worked alongside Vincent Waterman to produce those models!" I could not believe what I was hearing, but spent the next few minutes discussing some of my all-time favorite models. He said he thought he had some production figures back at his shop and we exchanged email addresses."
                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > This is Jim Waterman, son of Vince Waterman of Trackside Specialties.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > I think I wrote about it in earlier posts, but yes, Jan was the real muscle behind my father's PRR models in the 1960's. Jan did all the artwork for the photoetched bodies, then formed and soldered the cabs together. For most of the models, the mechanisms came from others. Jan also did the small run of HC-1 2-8-8-0's that were made, and a couple of B-8's. The one that didn't quite make it to market was an L-6, primarily because a suitable mechanism could not be made at a decent price. Somewhere out there is a pilot model of it, with a sample Andeco mechanism.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > My father's association with Jan remained through most of his life. My dad also picked up the balance of Lobaugh, which he split with Jan. My father was primarily a parts guy, Jan was better at producing whole kits or built up engines.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Jan was a very clever fellow, and produced a bunch of models over the years in different formats, some brass, some from rough aluminum castings.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > He was a good friend of my father's as were his lovely family.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > I miss both of them.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9188 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Old Central Valley HO Models Question
                                                                                                                                                              I don't recall ever seeing any white metal castings from Central Valley. As far as I know they were all alloy die cast of zamac or a similar metal.

                                                                                                                                                              George Hook did the design work but I don't know who cut the dies. Some of the castings were run by Bill Ulrich who was located in the San Fernando Valley not from George's shop on Saticoy. Later (or earlier, I may have the sequence backwards) Clarence Menteer of Model Die Casting ran some castings for George. MDC was in central Los Angeles, a few miles further away.

                                                                                                                                                              All three were members of the Western Model Manufacturers Association, a fairly tight group promoted by Tom Ayres who handled advertising and publicity for WMMA members. During the 50s and 60s there was a concerted effort by model railroad manufacturers located in Southern California to support one another.

                                                                                                                                                              Richard Bale


                                                                                                                                                              **************
                                                                                                                                                              Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9189 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars
                                                                                                                                                              Hi Wallace,

                                                                                                                                                              Mantua was fairly consistant over those years with their offerings, their catalogs have nice lists and some photos, too. I don't have mine here, but check them out at on line at HO Seeker

                                                                                                                                                              http://www.hoseeker.org/mantuamiscellaneous.html

                                                                                                                                                              Jay W.


                                                                                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wallace Tabor <wetabor@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Hello
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Let's have a little discussion on Mantua metal cars freight after World War
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > II.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Do any of you have a list of sides available for the reefers?
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Wally Tabor
                                                                                                                                                              > Guntersville, Alabama
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9190 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars
                                                                                                                                                              yes--I have the 1947 catalog--I have to get to a meeting right now, but will
                                                                                                                                                              run thru the 20 or so names when I get back. gj
                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                              From: "Wallace Tabor" <wetabor@...>
                                                                                                                                                              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars


                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Hello
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Let's have a little discussion on Mantua metal cars freight after World
                                                                                                                                                              > War
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > II.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Do any of you have a list of sides available for the reefers?
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Wally Tabor
                                                                                                                                                              > Guntersville, Alabama
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >


                                                                                                                                                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9191 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Old Central Valley HO Models Question
                                                                                                                                                              Rhbale@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              > All three were members of the Western Model Manufacturers Association, a
                                                                                                                                                              > fairly tight group promoted by Tom Ayres who handled advertising and
                                                                                                                                                              > publicity for WMMA members.

                                                                                                                                                              Would this be the same fellow whom Campbell Models named their
                                                                                                                                                              Ayre's Chairs kit after?

                                                                                                                                                              --

                                                                                                                                                              Rick Jones

                                                                                                                                                              "What if there were no hypothetical questions?"
                                                                                                                                                              -Stephen Wright
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9192 From: docles1 Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Mantua Reefer. Sides
                                                                                                                                                              Name Les Morris. Just joined group and this is the first posting for me. Iam only interested in collecting certain Mantua pieces. Have brass consolidation Pacific and Atlantic. I have no interest in operation. I am trying to collect all the reefer sides. I have a 1941 catalog that lists 16 sides and a 47 catalog that lists 20 sides. I am only interested in the fat axle cars that came with the cardboard sides. I have some interest in the box cars with paper sides. The only side to my knowledge not issued post WWII was College Inn. When I get the time I will post all the known catalog paper sides if someone doesn't do it before me. I bought my first Mantua Loco. The 0-4-0 Goat in 47 when I was 17 years old. Until i959 I had a small layout modeled after the one in Lynn Westbrooks Book (No Imagination) When I moved I couldnt move it the way I built it so it was torn up. In 1961 I joined the TCA and started collecting Lionel Std & O. Then Ives transition O and Std. Lionel now all sold. Most of Ives Transition O sold. Have an all Ives Std Ga. layout collecting dust. Have a fair sized collection of "American Miniature Railway" which is my main interest. Got back to collecting Mantua HO after resurecting the Goat I bought in 1947. Have become acquainted with Dan Bush of Yardbird and because AMRR is so scarce I am concentrating on certain vintage pieces of Mantua. I guess I have run on too long for my first post. I made my living as a Veterinarian but am now mostly retired.
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9193 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Etching
                                                                                                                                                              Hi Fred H.,

                                                                                                                                                              Your mention that there is an etching wizzard in the house brought to mind that while going through the vintage model railroading magazines, I noticed there are a few instances where they printed elevations of a locomotive or car that were "suitable to being reproduced in etched brass."

                                                                                                                                                              They suggested taking it to the reader's "local etching firm" resulting in a flat sheet kit of sorts which the modeler could then take home, cut out and build, following the magazine article's instructions. Using those drawings today would give us a circa, say 1950's etched brass kit to build. Something to think about.

                                                                                                                                                              Would this be cost effective to have a one-off made, or would it be more effective to say do 4 or 10?

                                                                                                                                                              Jay W.



                                                                                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Gentlemen(and ladies),
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > There has been mention of photo-etching but little discussion of it. Photo-ethcing fort model RR's was not really "early" in 1960, but has a history dating back to about 1948(that I know of, read that somewhere about 1971 and can't remember the source). The technique grew out of letterpress plate-making(which in turn dates back to well before 1900), using some imagination.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > If you're looking to have some etching done, a listee does this for a living. Small orders a specialty...
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Just a "hint."
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Happy Modeling
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9194 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: clarify IMP type drives
                                                                                                                                                              Hi Gerold,

                                                                                                                                                              Thanks for your detailed reply. Those first late 1940's International O1 ads talk about the AC motor, than begin to mention the new DC ones. I'll make a note of the dates of those changes when I go through the ads. As to the relationships bewteen the importers and the builders, I think Nat Polk provided an entertaing report of just what it was like back then in his long interview, almost a free-for all.

                                                                                                                                                              Thanks, too, for the offer of ID'ing my small chassis. The drive is almost identical to the one (but with thinner gears bewteen wheelsets) that appeard in the little brass boxcab that was sold to someone on eBay last week, a Japanese prototype of some sort ($47 seemed good).

                                                                                                                                                              http://tinyurl.com/crroj9

                                                                                                                                                              (I have to speed up buying a replacement camera and I want to make sure the new one will take clear model photos, so will be a week or two for photos!)

                                                                                                                                                              Jay W.


                                                                                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > first - my apology, my memory fooled me , I have the version with the
                                                                                                                                                              > vertical shaft motor and the gears connecting the two axles. Did not
                                                                                                                                                              > check when typing the respective message. Either I have confused her
                                                                                                                                                              > with a ACE JNR ED14.4 ( B'B' boxcab) which definitely has spring belt
                                                                                                                                                              > "connecting" or with a picture of an O1c I have seen somewhere ... sorry.
                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                              > > Jim you could be compoletely right about the assumption that,"only 3 versions, 3 drives." I took a big leap of faith in making that assumption!
                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                              > An uneducated guess: Maybe there were some with an vertical shaft AC
                                                                                                                                                              > motor in the beginning, have seen several boxcabs ( the mentioned ED14,
                                                                                                                                                              > but also the ED16s ) with this motor. Have put a (diode) rectifier in
                                                                                                                                                              > the ED14 but it is weak and sluggish.
                                                                                                                                                              > -- Just took out some models (ED11, ED14, ED16, ED17, from the display
                                                                                                                                                              > cabinet , or the respective boxes where the basket cases are stored, and
                                                                                                                                                              > found that those which have a spring belt driving the second axle ALL
                                                                                                                                                              > have an AC motor. Maybe a coincidence....
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > > I will stand by the chronological changes in body styles though, which I'll temporarilly label Phasas I, II, and III. As I said, I will document them with the ads and photographs list sometime this weekend and create a file here for the list.
                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                              > > As I just arrived home, I read your message again and went down and opened up my complete model, what I'll label a Phase II body. My drive consists of two geared axles, connected to a horiozontal geared shaft. At one endof the shaft is a knurled pulley. A "Pittman-style" motor is mounted horzontally avove the frame with an "L" bracket, the motor also has a pulley which is connected to the horizontal shaft's pulley with a sring belt.
                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                              > > I think I have pretty much described your model as well, from what I can tell in the small thumbnails, (For some reason, I have been having problems opening them up to a larger view, not just. here but on the Yahoo NYCMTM group as well).
                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                              > > >From the little I know, I believe International was the only firm that imported the PRR style locomotives as Barnet was a NYC guy, in sync with East Coast model rails at the time. Ken Kidder, on the West Coast, generally favoring West Coast and midwest prototypes, and athough he did boxcabs and generic ones, do not believe (at this time, anyway) that he produced high wheeled types).
                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                              > KK apparently picked up what was available in Japan hoping to sell
                                                                                                                                                              > Japanese prototypes as stand ins for US types. Some of them looked
                                                                                                                                                              > quite convincing, the small ED11 / ED 14 boxcabs looked like baby
                                                                                                                                                              > Milwaukee boxcabs, the ED 17 carbody is quite similiar to the N&W LC1
                                                                                                                                                              > type. There were also numerous models of the medium sized ED17.22.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > > To complicate matters though, I can speculate that both International and Kidder may have used some of the same factories for their individual models.
                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                              > They surely did...,amongst others.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > GEM and LMB come to my mind; some small steam locos showed up in many
                                                                                                                                                              > different catalogs. . From all I have learned, this seems to have been a
                                                                                                                                                              > bewildering system of contractors, subcontractors ( often "one man
                                                                                                                                                              > companies" ) which sold their stuff to anybody willing to pay for it
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > > The instructions, labeled "International Models" printed on a flimsy manila type construction paper, show this drive layout that corresponds to my model - the box, instructions and model came from the original owner.
                                                                                                                                                              > >
                                                                                                                                                              > > I am familiar with the geared arrangement between axles that is seen on other International imports, and have one such mechanism with much smaller 45-50" smaller spoked, sand cast wheels, probably from a genric boxcab or Baldwin style electric.
                                                                                                                                                              > This may be a drive from either a ED11 or ED17, most of them had spoked
                                                                                                                                                              > drivers, the ED14s I have all have solid ones. If you send me a picture
                                                                                                                                                              > I most likely will be able to identify it.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9195 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Etching
                                                                                                                                                              Hi, Jay and thanks for writing.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              I can't say I recall seeing those in the press, but if the printing is real sharp and contrasty, we could probably do something for you.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              As far as quantity, our minimum is "one." If more would fit easily on a sheet(will depend in the size of the finished product), it would pay to get more than one. Sheet size runs from 4" x 5" to about 8" x 10" for reference.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              I would need to see the artwork(such as it is) to be able to judge that, of course.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              Any chance of putting a ruler on it and sending me a scan? I could tell more by that than a verbal derscription. Too bad we probably can't get the original artwork from the printer and reduce it to final size - makes a better camera shot.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              We'd have to agree on material as well, but let's see where we are going with it first.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              Over to you...
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              Happy modeling!
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

                                                                                                                                                              --- On Thu, 3/26/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                              From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Etching
                                                                                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                              Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 5:01 PM

                                                                                                                                                              Hi Fred H.,

                                                                                                                                                              Your mention that there is an etching wizzard in the house brought to mind that while going through the vintage model railroading magazines, I noticed there are a few instances where they printed elevations of a locomotive or car that were "suitable to being reproduced in etched brass."

                                                                                                                                                              They suggested taking it to the reader's "local etching firm" resulting in a flat sheet kit of sorts which the modeler could then take home, cut out and build, following the magazine article's instructions. Using those drawings today would give us a circa, say 1950's etched brass kit to build. Something to think about.

                                                                                                                                                              Would this be cost effective to have a one-off made, or would it be more effective to say do 4 or 10?

                                                                                                                                                              Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9196 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Etching
                                                                                                                                                              Hi Fred H, (resident etching wizard)

                                                                                                                                                              First step is for me to make a list of the drawings available, I seem to remember three different ones, but think there are one or two more. Next, I'll post the list here and see if anyone else is interested. If so, then maybe pick one together to be sent for your determination of the possibility, and if so, quotes.

                                                                                                                                                              As far as originals, I doubt it, but once and if we decide to aks for a quote, can zip an email over to the old publisher and see; he probably would get a chuckle that finally someone was using those 40-50 year old plans!

                                                                                                                                                              A buddy who lived in England for a while in the 1980's and early 1990's told me that flat brass kits were still somewhat popular there.

                                                                                                                                                              I'll try looking for the articles in the magazine index and pulling them at the same time I review the old mags for information on the IMP O1 models I will be doing over the weekend.

                                                                                                                                                              Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Hi, Jay and thanks for writing.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > I can't say I recall seeing those in the press, but if the printing is real sharp and contrasty, we could probably do something for you.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > As far as quantity, our minimum is "one." If more would fit easily on a sheet(will depend in the size of the finished product), it would pay to get more than one. Sheet size runs from 4" x 5" to about 8" x 10" for reference.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > I would need to see the artwork(such as it is) to be able to judge that, of course.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Any chance of putting a ruler on it and sending me a scan? I could tell more by that than a verbal derscription. Too bad we probably can't get the original artwork from the printer and reduce it to final size - makes a better camera shot.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > We'd have to agree on material as well, but let's see where we are going with it first.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Over to you...
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Happy modeling!
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Etching
                                                                                                                                                              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                              > Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 5:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Hi Fred H.,
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Your mention that there is an etching wizzard in the house brought to mind that while going through the vintage model railroading magazines, I noticed there are a few instances where they printed elevations of a locomotive or car that were "suitable to being reproduced in etched brass."
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > They suggested taking it to the reader's "local etching firm" resulting in a flat sheet kit of sorts which the modeler could then take home, cut out and build, following the magazine article's instructions. Using those drawings today would give us a circa, say 1950's etched brass kit to build. Something to think about.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Would this be cost effective to have a one-off made, or would it be more effective to say do 4 or 10?
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9197 From: Fair-In-Ra@webtv.net Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars
                                                                                                                                                              Wally, My 1947 Mantua catalog shows 20 reefer sides. They are Santa
                                                                                                                                                              Fe, Rath's Black Hawk, MDT, Swift's Premium Ham, Crazy Crystal, Armour's
                                                                                                                                                              Star Lard, Fruit Growers Express, Western Fruit Express (GN), Berkshire
                                                                                                                                                              Ham, Burlington Refrigerator Express, Baby Ruth, Pluto Water,
                                                                                                                                                              Lackawanna, Borden's Fine Cheese, Morrell's Pride, Land O Lakes, College
                                                                                                                                                              Inn, Gerbers Food Products, Pacific Fruit Express (SP&UP), Pacific Fruit
                                                                                                                                                              Express (Western&Pacific). The 1948 listing is the same with the
                                                                                                                                                              exception of Chicago & Northwestern being substituted for College Inn.
                                                                                                                                                              HTH Mike Farina
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9198 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Etching
                                                                                                                                                              OK, Ray.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              Sounds like a plan...
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              We haven't done "flat brass kits" in years... but no reason they can't be done again, as long as we have artwork or - even better - the negatives. They would have been used for the printing job, too.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              I can't speak for the British or Europe, but I know they're a bit more fanatical than Americans are. Might explain something.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              over to you(again)
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

                                                                                                                                                              --- On Thu, 3/26/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                              From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Etching
                                                                                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                              Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 6:06 PM

                                                                                                                                                              Hi Fred H, (resident etching wizard)

                                                                                                                                                              First step is for me to make a list of the drawings available, I seem to remember three different ones, but think there are one or two more.  Next, I'll post the list here and see if anyone else is interested. If so, then maybe pick one together to be sent for your determination of the possibility, and if so, quotes.

                                                                                                                                                              As far as originals, I doubt it, but once and if we decide to aks for a quote, can zip an email over to the old publisher and see; he probably would get a chuckle that finally someone was using those 40-50 year old plans!

                                                                                                                                                              A buddy who lived in England for a while in the 1980's and early 1990's told me that flat brass kits were still somewhat popular there.

                                                                                                                                                              I'll try looking for the articles in the magazine index and pulling them at the same time I review the old mags for information on the IMP O1 models I will be doing over the weekend. 

                                                                                                                                                              Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Hi, Jay and thanks for writing.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > I can't say I recall seeing those in the press, but if the printing is real sharp and contrasty, we could probably do something for you.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > As far as quantity, our minimum is "one." If more would fit easily on a sheet(will depend in the size of the finished product), it would pay to get more than one. Sheet size runs from 4" x 5" to about 8" x 10" for reference.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > I would need to see the artwork(such as it is) to be able to judge that, of course.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Any chance of putting a ruler on it and sending me a scan? I could tell more by that than a verbal derscription. Too bad we probably can't get the original artwork from the printer and reduce it to final size - makes a better camera shot.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > We'd have to agree on material as well, but let's see where we are going with it first.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Over to you...
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Happy modeling!
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Etching
                                                                                                                                                              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                              > Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 5:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Hi Fred H.,
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Your mention that there is an etching wizzard in the house brought to mind that while going through the vintage model railroading magazines, I noticed there are a few instances where they printed elevations of a locomotive or car that were "suitable to being reproduced in etched brass."
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > They suggested taking it to the reader's "local etching firm" resulting in a flat sheet kit of sorts which the modeler could then take home, cut out and build, following the magazine article's instructions. Using those drawings today would give us a circa, say 1950's etched brass kit to build. Something to think about.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Would this be cost effective to have a one-off made, or would it be more effective to say do 4 or 10?
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                              >




                                                                                                                                                              ------------------------------------

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                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9199 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars
                                                                                                                                                              OK--here's what I have in the 1947 catalog:
                                                                                                                                                              Santa Fe
                                                                                                                                                              Rath's Black Hawk
                                                                                                                                                              M.D.T.
                                                                                                                                                              Swift's Premium Ham
                                                                                                                                                              Crazy Crystal
                                                                                                                                                              Armour's Star Lard
                                                                                                                                                              Fruit Growers Express
                                                                                                                                                              Western Fruit Express
                                                                                                                                                              Berkshire Ham
                                                                                                                                                              Burlington Refrigerator Express
                                                                                                                                                              Baby Ruth
                                                                                                                                                              Lackawana
                                                                                                                                                              Pluto Water
                                                                                                                                                              Borden's Fine Cheese
                                                                                                                                                              Morrell's Pride
                                                                                                                                                              Land O Lakes
                                                                                                                                                              College Inn
                                                                                                                                                              Gerbers Food Products
                                                                                                                                                              Pacific Fruit Express
                                                                                                                                                              Pacific Fruit Express (Western)

                                                                                                                                                              As I understand it--the dealer got a number of car kits that did not have
                                                                                                                                                              the sides--and a stack of sides from which the customer could pick his
                                                                                                                                                              favorite.

                                                                                                                                                              Stamped roof, sub-sides, and floor were thin sheet metal. The rest of the
                                                                                                                                                              car was die cast parts.

                                                                                                                                                              Someplace I have a complete kit that someone sent me back in 1994 while I
                                                                                                                                                              was putting together a clinic on "Ancient HO" for the PCR (NMRA) 50th
                                                                                                                                                              anniversary convention.

                                                                                                                                                              GJ
                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                              From: "Wallace Tabor" <wetabor@...>
                                                                                                                                                              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars


                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Hello
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Let's have a little discussion on Mantua metal cars freight after World
                                                                                                                                                              > War
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > II.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Do any of you have a list of sides available for the reefers?
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Wally Tabor
                                                                                                                                                              > Guntersville, Alabama
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >


                                                                                                                                                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                                                                                                                              No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                              Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.29/2024 - Release Date: 03/26/09
                                                                                                                                                              07:12:00
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9200 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Old Central Valley HO Models Question
                                                                                                                                                              yes
                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                              From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:02 PM
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Central Valley HO Models Question


                                                                                                                                                              > Rhbale@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              >> All three were members of the Western Model Manufacturers Association, a
                                                                                                                                                              >> fairly tight group promoted by Tom Ayres who handled advertising and
                                                                                                                                                              >> publicity for WMMA members.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Would this be the same fellow whom Campbell Models named their
                                                                                                                                                              > Ayre's Chairs kit after?
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > --
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > "What if there were no hypothetical questions?"
                                                                                                                                                              > -Stephen Wright
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >


                                                                                                                                                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                                                                                                                              No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                              Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.29/2024 - Release Date: 03/26/09
                                                                                                                                                              07:12:00
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9201 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: clarify IMP type drives
                                                                                                                                                              On Mar 26, 2009, at 4:43 PM, the_plainsman wrote:

                                                                                                                                                              > Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Thanks for your detailed reply.
                                                                                                                                                              .................
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > (I have to speed up buying a replacement camera and I want to make
                                                                                                                                                              > sure the new one will take clear model photos, so will be a week or
                                                                                                                                                              > two for photos!)
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                              Try my field test for a new camera..........

                                                                                                                                                              I put a few coins on the countertop and the camera I buy is one that
                                                                                                                                                              cleanly close focuses to them and fill the viewfinder with a 1/4 of a
                                                                                                                                                              coin. My favorite performers are the low cost Nikon cameras.

                                                                                                                                                              Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                              Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                              Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9202 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars
                                                                                                                                                              You understand correctly on the undec cars where you picked out your sides. I have an old Mantua box somewhere, and it stated that the car sides were not in the box, but to ask your dealer to pick out a set of sides.

                                                                                                                                                              Interesting way of selling car kits, to say the least!

                                                                                                                                                              On the subject of Mantua paper sides, I got a few sets not long ago, one was a B&O boxcar set with doors. Well, I had a Strombecker B&O boxcar with tattered sides. I managed to replace the Strombecker sides with the Mantua sides. Looks good. Better, in fact, as the Mantua sides has embossed rivets in them!

                                                                                                                                                              -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                              --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                              From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars
                                                                                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                              Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 6:16 PM

                                                                                                                                                              OK--here's what I have in the 1947 catalog:
                                                                                                                                                              Santa Fe
                                                                                                                                                              Rath's Black Hawk
                                                                                                                                                              M.D.T.
                                                                                                                                                              Swift's Premium Ham
                                                                                                                                                              Crazy Crystal
                                                                                                                                                              Armour's Star Lard
                                                                                                                                                              Fruit Growers Express
                                                                                                                                                              Western Fruit Express
                                                                                                                                                              Berkshire Ham
                                                                                                                                                              Burlington Refrigerator Express
                                                                                                                                                              Baby Ruth
                                                                                                                                                              Lackawana
                                                                                                                                                              Pluto Water
                                                                                                                                                              Borden's Fine Cheese
                                                                                                                                                              Morrell's Pride
                                                                                                                                                              Land O Lakes
                                                                                                                                                              College Inn
                                                                                                                                                              Gerbers Food Products
                                                                                                                                                              Pacific Fruit Express
                                                                                                                                                              Pacific Fruit Express (Western)

                                                                                                                                                              As I understand it--the dealer got a number of car kits that did not have
                                                                                                                                                              the sides--and a stack of sides from which the customer could pick his
                                                                                                                                                              favorite.

                                                                                                                                                              Stamped roof, sub-sides, and floor were thin sheet metal. The rest of the
                                                                                                                                                              car was die cast parts.

                                                                                                                                                              Someplace I have a complete kit that someone sent me back in 1994 while I
                                                                                                                                                              was putting together a clinic on "Ancient HO" for the PCR (NMRA) 50th
                                                                                                                                                              anniversary convention.

                                                                                                                                                              GJ
                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                              From: "Wallace Tabor" <wetabor@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                              To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars

                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Hello
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Let's have a little discussion on Mantua metal cars freight after World
                                                                                                                                                              > War
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > II.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Do any of you have a list of sides available for the reefers?
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Wally Tabor
                                                                                                                                                              > Guntersville, Alabama
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >

                                                                                                                                                              ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                                                                                                                                              No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                              Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.29/2024 - Release Date: 03/26/09
                                                                                                                                                              07:12:00
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9203 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars
                                                                                                                                                              You guys caught me day-dreaming today about how to make my own cars from DIY printed sides and home-cast superstructures and underbodies.

                                                                                                                                                              Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                              Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                              Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                                                              On Mar 26, 2009, at 6:33 PM, Stephen Neubaum wrote:

                                                                                                                                                              You understand correctly on the undec cars where you picked out your sides. I have an old Mantua box somewhere, and it stated that the car sides were not in the box, but to ask your dealer to pick out a set of sides.

                                                                                                                                                              Interesting way of selling car kits, to say the least!

                                                                                                                                                              On the subject of Mantua paper sides, I got a few sets not long ago, one was a B&O boxcar set with doors. Well, I had a Strombecker B&O boxcar with tattered sides. I managed to replace the Strombecker sides with the Mantua sides. Looks good. Better, in fact, as the Mantua sides has embossed rivets in them!

                                                                                                                                                              -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                              --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                              From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars
                                                                                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                              Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 6:16 PM

                                                                                                                                                              OK--here's what I have in the 1947 catalog:
                                                                                                                                                              Santa Fe
                                                                                                                                                              Rath's Black Hawk
                                                                                                                                                              M.D.T.
                                                                                                                                                              Swift's Premium Ham
                                                                                                                                                              Crazy Crystal
                                                                                                                                                              Armour's Star Lard
                                                                                                                                                              Fruit Growers Express
                                                                                                                                                              Western Fruit Express
                                                                                                                                                              Berkshire Ham
                                                                                                                                                              Burlington Refrigerator Express
                                                                                                                                                              Baby Ruth
                                                                                                                                                              Lackawana
                                                                                                                                                              Pluto Water
                                                                                                                                                              Borden's Fine Cheese
                                                                                                                                                              Morrell's Pride
                                                                                                                                                              Land O Lakes
                                                                                                                                                              College Inn
                                                                                                                                                              Gerbers Food Products
                                                                                                                                                              Pacific Fruit Express
                                                                                                                                                              Pacific Fruit Express (Western)

                                                                                                                                                              As I understand it--the dealer got a number of car kits that did not have 
                                                                                                                                                              the sides--and a stack of sides from which the customer could pick his 
                                                                                                                                                              favorite.

                                                                                                                                                              Stamped roof, sub-sides, and floor were thin sheet metal. The rest of the 
                                                                                                                                                              car was die cast parts.

                                                                                                                                                              Someplace I have a complete kit that someone sent me back in 1994 while I 
                                                                                                                                                              was putting together a clinic on "Ancient HO" for the PCR (NMRA) 50th 
                                                                                                                                                              anniversary convention.

                                                                                                                                                              GJ
                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                              From: "Wallace Tabor" <wetabor@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                              To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua HO metal reefers and tank cars

                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Hello
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Let's have a little discussion on Mantua metal cars freight after World 
                                                                                                                                                              > War
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > II.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Do any of you have a list of sides available for the reefers?
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Wally Tabor
                                                                                                                                                              > Guntersville, Alabama
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9204 From: Karl Peters Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Etching
                                                                                                                                                              Etched kits are very popular over in the UK at least. I subscribe to RAILWAY MODELLER, a British railway modeling magazine. Articles using these kits are quite common.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9205 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Etching
                                                                                                                                                              Karl,
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              I know the Europeans do etched kits - our own line of ready-made thngs are cut-out and ready to use for the most part. No hand-cutting, trimming or filing.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              Are they still doing some that need all the holes and outlines cut by hand? (that is what I think is meant by "flat kits"). Of course, all etched parts are flat to begin with - that's the only way you can put an image on the material for etching.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              Interesting, if so, eh?
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

                                                                                                                                                              --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Karl Peters <krlpeters@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                              From: Karl Peters <krlpeters@...>
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Etching
                                                                                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                              Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 8:43 PM

                                                                                                                                                              Etched kits are very popular over in the UK at least. I subscribe to RAILWAY MODELLER, a British railway modeling magazine. Articles using these kits are quite common.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9206 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Etching
                                                                                                                                                              Hi Fred H, Karl deP and All,

                                                                                                                                                              Yes, I too interpret the term "Flat Kit" as the old style where the sheet brass has the basic design and some detail etched in it, then it is up to the modeler to do a considerable amount of cutting, filing, drilling, filing, opening up all windows,(did I say filing?) and then finally soldering the body together, then the whole subject of how to power the beast has to be addressed.

                                                                                                                                                              There are a number of US kits that incorporate what some now seem to call double-etched parts (do not know if that is a proper etching term) wherein a complete side has all details and window openings already done and one merely attaches that side to a core that has been constructed of various materials.

                                                                                                                                                              For example, John Greene's Bethlehem Coach Works has a number of beautiful HO kits for Eastern US road heavyweight and lightweight passenger cars and Merle Rice's Red Ball, the same firm that has been in business since 1939, uses the double etched brass in a number of kits including road specaific troop cars sides and a Baldwin B type electric switcher. A Brill Model 55 gas electric is due doon as well.

                                                                                                                                                              But these latter day kits are not what I call the vintage "flat kit."

                                                                                                                                                              Jay W.


                                                                                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Karl,
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > I know the Europeans do etched kits - our own line of ready-made thngs are cut-out and ready to use for the most part. No hand-cutting, trimming or filing.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Are they still doing some that need all the holes and outlines cut by hand? (that is what I think is meant by "flat kits"). Of course, all etched parts are flat to begin with - that's the only way you can put an image on the material for etching.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Interesting, if so, eh?
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Karl Peters <krlpeters@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > From: Karl Peters <krlpeters@...>
                                                                                                                                                              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Etching
                                                                                                                                                              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                              > Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 8:43 PM
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Etched kits are very popular over in the UK at least. I subscribe to RAILWAY MODELLER, a British railway modeling magazine. Articles using these kits are quite common.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9207 From: John Hagen Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Etching
                                                                                                                                                              Fred,

                                                                                                                                                              I believe I supplied some artwork for some etched pieces for a 1/25 automobile for Dean Miller. Am I correct on that?

                                                                                                                                                              I only ask as I am seriously considering another project, this one for an HO locomotive and I would like to work with soneone I kind of know.

                                                                                                                                                              John Hagen

                                                                                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Gentlemen(and ladies),
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > There has been mention of photo-etching but little discussion of it. Photo-ethcing fort model RR's was not really "early" in 1960, but has a history dating back to about 1948(that I know of, read that somewhere about 1971 and can't remember the source). The technique grew out of letterpress plate-making(which in turn dates back to well before 1900), using some imagination.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > If you're looking to have some etching done, a listee does this for a living. Small orders a specialty...
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Just a "hint."
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Happy Modeling
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9208 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: "Double-Etching"
                                                                                                                                                              Yes, most of what we do is what you are calling "double-etched," which is really etching from both sides - once for the main cut-out shapes(and holes) and once for the details. (Your terminology is fine...)
                                                                                                                                                              This requires two matching(in register) negatives, which in turn come from two pieces of artwork.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

                                                                                                                                                              --- On Thu, 3/26/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                              From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Etching
                                                                                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                              Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 9:26 PM

                                                                                                                                                              Hi Fred H, Karl deP and All,

                                                                                                                                                              Yes, I too interpret the term "Flat Kit" as the old style where the sheet brass has the basic design and some detail etched in it, then it is up to the modeler to do a considerable amount of cutting, filing, drilling, filing, opening up all windows,(did I say filing?) and then finally soldering the body together, then the whole subject of how to power the beast has to be addressed.

                                                                                                                                                              There are a number of US kits that incorporate what some now seem to call double-etched parts (do not know if that is a proper etching term) wherein a complete side has all details and window openings already done and one merely attaches that side to a core that has been constructed of various materials. 

                                                                                                                                                              For example, John Greene's Bethlehem Coach Works has a number of beautiful HO kits for Eastern US road heavyweight and lightweight passenger cars and Merle Rice's Red Ball, the same firm that has been in business since 1939, uses the double etched brass in a number of kits including road specaific troop cars sides and a Baldwin B type electric switcher.  A Brill Model 55 gas electric is due doon as well. 

                                                                                                                                                              But these latter day kits are not what I call the vintage "flat kit."

                                                                                                                                                              Jay W. 


                                                                                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Karl,
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > I know the Europeans do etched kits - our own line of ready-made thngs are cut-out and ready to use for the most part. No hand-cutting, trimming or filing.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Are they still doing some that need all the holes and outlines cut by hand? (that is what I think is meant by "flat kits"). Of course, all etched parts are flat to begin with - that's the only way you can put an image on the material for etching.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Interesting, if so, eh?
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Karl Peters <krlpeters@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > From: Karl Peters <krlpeters@...>
                                                                                                                                                              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Etching
                                                                                                                                                              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                              > Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 8:43 PM
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Etched kits are very popular over in the UK at least. I subscribe to RAILWAY MODELLER, a British railway modeling magazine. Articles using these kits are quite common.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                              >




                                                                                                                                                              ------------------------------------

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                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9209 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Etching / Dean Miller
                                                                                                                                                              Yes, John - that sounds correct to me. I thought it was a truck, though. That was a few weeks/months back. Could be wrong... it has been known to happen.
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              Aside: "I have NEVER made a mistake. I thought I did once, but I was wrong."
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              'Nuff said?
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

                                                                                                                                                              --- On Thu, 3/26/09, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                              From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Etching
                                                                                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                              Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 9:50 PM

                                                                                                                                                              Fred,

                                                                                                                                                              I believe I supplied some artwork for some etched pieces for a 1/25 automobile for Dean Miller. Am I correct on that?

                                                                                                                                                              I only ask as I am seriously considering another project, this one for an HO locomotive and I would like to work with soneone I kind of know.

                                                                                                                                                              John Hagen

                                                                                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Gentlemen(and ladies),
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > There has been mention of photo-etching but little discussion of it. Photo-ethcing fort model RR's was not really "early" in 1960, but has a history dating back to about 1948(that I know of, read that somewhere about 1971 and can't remember the source). The technique grew out of letterpress plate-making(which in turn dates back to well before 1900), using some imagination.
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > If you're looking to have some etching done, a listee does this for a living. Small orders a specialty...
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Just a "hint."
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Happy Modeling
                                                                                                                                                              >  
                                                                                                                                                              > Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                                                                                                              >




                                                                                                                                                              ------------------------------------

                                                                                                                                                              Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                                                                                                                              <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9210 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 3/26/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: Old Central Valley HO Models Question
                                                                                                                                                              Rick...

                                                                                                                                                              The quick answer is yes, Leo Campbell named his kit after Tom Ayres.

                                                                                                                                                              There is much more to the story which I will be happy to pass along if you are interested.

                                                                                                                                                              Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                              Carlsbad, CA


                                                                                                                                                              **************
                                                                                                                                                              Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9211 From: Larry Date: 3/27/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: While on the subject of Old car kits
                                                                                                                                                              What size of staple was used in the
                                                                                                                                                              vintage kits for steps?
                                                                                                                                                              I assume they were staples, as they look just like one.

                                                                                                                                                              Larry
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9212 From: tadonahue Date: 3/27/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: While on the subject of Old car kits
                                                                                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" <larry_l_doub@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > What size of staple was used in the
                                                                                                                                                              > vintage kits for steps?
                                                                                                                                                              > I assume they were staples, as they look just like one.
                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                              > Larry

                                                                                                                                                              Don't know much about other kits, but Central Valley steps and grab-irons came pre-formed as multi-bend items. I also have a Grandt Line Grab Iron Bending Fixture, item # 5191, that will let me make one set of bends, but I then have to use a clamp to make the second set of bends. No staple knowledge but HTH.
                                                                                                                                                              Tom Donahue
                                                                                                                                                              Melbourne, FL
                                                                                                                                                              Group: vintageHO Message: 9213 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 3/27/2009
                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: REA Baggage Cars
                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :

                                                                                                                                                                Lennard Stewart wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                   Hi Gary Woodard

                                                                                                                                                                           Here are some links that may help.
                                                                                                                                                                http://www.geocities.com/theupstairstrain/New_Haven_sets.html
                                                                                                                                                                http://www.ourfamilystudio.com/Texas_and_Pacific_RR/image017.htm
                                                                                                                                                                http://www.ourfamilystudio.com/Texas_and_Pacific_RR/image018.htm
                                                                                                                                                                http://www.ourfamilystudio.com/Texas_and_Pacific_RR/index.htm
                                                                                                                                                                Scroll down on the next ones
                                                                                                                                                                http://forum.atlasrr.com/discussion/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=46769
                                                                                                                                                                http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.trainweb.org/wnyrhs/Images/bagrea2040.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.trainweb.org/wnyrhs/passenger.htm&usg=__nTm2rvc6rHxQIMYYLPeZO7PsRtc=&h=243&w=362&sz=20&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=YZmZqgSYyas0AM:&tbnh=81&tbnw=121&prev=/images%3Fq%3DREA%2Bbaggage%2Bcar%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1
                                                                                                                                                                http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/1916/passcar.html
                                                                                                                                                                http://www.railpixs.com/chessie/chessie.html
                                                                                                                                                                http://www.northeast.railfan.net/rolling30.html
                                                                                                                                                                http://traveltown.org/projects/rea.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                http://my.execpc.com/~jruss/mgn.html
                                                                                                                                                                http://www.trainweb.org/chris/montilli.html
                                                                                                                                                                Hope These help Lennard in East Texas
                                                                                                                                                                Lennard Stewart
Owner of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1-87scalevehiclesales/


                                                                                                                                                                Gary Woodard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                Hi All,

                                                                                                                                                                I have a friend who doesn't like to get online for anything, but is building a model of an old REA baggage car, he has one kitbashed already, with 3 side doors, what he needs most is the numbers, as the picture he has seems to have the car numbers blurred out, anyone know what numbers these cars ran under, I believe they ran mostly on SAL, ACL, maybe they ran throughout the eastern seaboard, I'm certainly not familiar with these cars, does anyone know of any clear pictures of these cars online anywhere???? ?:o)

                                                                                                                                                                Gary W




                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                -- 
Lennard Stewart
Owner of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1-87scalevehiclesales/
                                                                                                                                                                
 

                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9214
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: While on the subject of Old car kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                     For what its worth. If you 
want to bend your own steps Micro Mark has a tool shaped like a wedge that 
allows you to bend many different sizes but each bend, no matter what size, 
is always the same. A little pricey. I use an old pair of needle nose plies. I 
enlarge the gripping area to hold the size I want to make.  I have a number 
of different slots for different sizes. Allows you to bend both ends same 
time. Just put a piece of brass wire in the slot size you want, bend both ends 
and trim to size if needed. Works good for me.They all come out the same. 
This idea only good for small items. Grabs and steps OK. Larger 
handrails won't work.
                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                From: 
  tadonahue 
  
                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 10:00 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: While on the 
  subject of Old car kits
                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "Larry" <larry_l_doub@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                > What size of 
  staple was used in the 
                                                                                                                                                                > vintage kits for steps?
                                                                                                                                                                > I assume they 
  were staples, as they look just like one.
                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                > Larry

                                                                                                                                                                Don't 
  know much about other kits, but Central Valley steps and grab-irons came 
  pre-formed as multi-bend items. I also have a Grandt Line Grab Iron Bending 
  Fixture, item # 5191, that will let me make one set of bends, but I then have 
  to use a clamp to make the second set of bends. No staple knowledge but 
  HTH.
                                                                                                                                                                Tom Donahue
                                                                                                                                                                Melbourne, FL

                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9215
						From: tadonahue
						Date: 3/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: While on the subject of Old car kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                Sorry for the top-post: I just re-read Larry's orginal message and thought I would add a little about steps.  In the 1971 Kalmbach book Easy-to-Build-Model-Railroad-Freight-Cars, Eric Stevens recommended generic office staples, cut to length and re-bent.  He also suggested a length of flattened brass wire folded 90 degrees at the two ends and fastened by pins or glue.  I was so excited to have something to add to the list that I forgot about the steps!
                                                                                                                                                                
Tom Donahue
                                                                                                                                                                
Melbourne, FL
                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                
>      For what its worth. If you want to bend your own steps Micro Mark has a tool shaped like a wedge that allows you to bend many different sizes but each bend, no matter what size, is always the same. A little pricey. I use an old pair of needle nose plies. I enlarge the gripping area to hold the size I want to make.  I have a number of different slots for different sizes. Allows you to bend both ends same time. Just put a piece of brass wire in the slot size you want, bend both ends and trim to size if needed. Works good for me.They all come out the same. This idea only good for small items. Grabs and steps OK. Larger handrails won't work.
                                                                                                                                                                
>                                                                       Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                
>   From: tadonahue 
                                                                                                                                                                
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                
>   Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 10:00 AM
                                                                                                                                                                
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: While on the subject of Old car kits
                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" <larry_l_doub@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                
>   > What size of staple was used in the 
                                                                                                                                                                
>   > vintage kits for steps?
                                                                                                                                                                
>   > I assume they were staples, as they look just like one.
                                                                                                                                                                
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                
>   > Larry
                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                
>   Don't know much about other kits, but Central Valley steps and grab-irons came pre-formed as multi-bend items. I also have a Grandt Line Grab Iron Bending Fixture, item # 5191, that will let me make one set of bends, but I then have to use a clamp to make the second set of bends. No staple knowledge but HTH.
                                                                                                                                                                
>   Tom Donahue
                                                                                                                                                                
>   Melbourne, FL
                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9216
						From: cnj999
						Date: 3/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                Among Ambroid's "1 of 5,000" freight car kits was their #4, the Riverside Oil insulated tank car. The tank wrap on this car was a scribed piece of thin stock that, when the model was completed, gave the exterior a unique, corrugated appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                
The question arose on another forum this morning as to whether this scribing was actually done to facilitate bending the tank wrap without splitting, or did the actual car indeed have a corrugated exterior? So far, no one has been able to provide a photo of any prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                
What's the consensus of folks here regarding this car?
                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                
CNJ999
                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9217
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 3/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                Hi cnj999,
                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                
I have seen a prototype photo a while back, either on a freight car website or one of the old model mags, MR or RMC around the time the kit came out, and the car did have a corrugated exterior covering.   The model's surface replicates this well, as the wrapper is more than merely scribed, but has the simulated wavy corrugations. I believe Northeastern still carries this milled wood material in their current line.  This kit was one of the ones that Northeastern produced for one of two of Ambroid's 1 of 5,000 series and later was offered in Northeastern's own line. Ambroid's kits were all prototype-based. (At least two other firms made kits for Ambroid as well: Quality Craft and Display Craft). 
                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "cnj999" <jbortle@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                
> Among Ambroid's "1 of 5,000" freight car kits was their #4, the Riverside Oil insulated tank car. The tank wrap on this car was a scribed piece of thin stock that, when the model was completed, gave the exterior a unique, corrugated appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                
> The question arose on another forum this morning as to whether this scribing was actually done to facilitate bending the tank wrap without splitting, or did the actual car indeed have a corrugated exterior? So far, no one has been able to provide a photo of any prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                
> What's the consensus of folks here regarding this car?
                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                
> CNJ999
                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9218
						From: jay matz
						Date: 3/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                There is a prototype for the car. The wood siding covered the insulation.
                                                                                                                                                                One of the mags had photos of the prototype car years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                Some where I have a photo of one.
                                                                                                                                                                Jay 

                                                                                                                                                                 --- On Fri, 3/27/09, cnj999 <jbortle@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                From: cnj999 <jbortle@...>
                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                Date: Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:34 PM

                                                                                                                                                                






    
                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                Among Ambroid's "1 of 5,000" freight car kits was their #4, the Riverside Oil insulated tank car. The tank wrap on this car was a scribed piece of thin stock that, when the model was completed, gave the exterior a unique, corrugated appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                
The question arose on another forum this morning as to whether this scribing was actually done to facilitate bending the tank wrap without splitting, or did the actual car indeed have a corrugated exterior? So far, no one has been able to provide a photo of any prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                
What's the consensus of folks here regarding this car?
                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                
CNJ999 
                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                  


	 
	
	

                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9219
						From: Victor Bitleris
						Date: 3/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                



 
Hi folks,
                                                                                                                                                                The prototype was definitely corrugated, exactly like the Ambroid car.  If Ambroid wanted to give a smooth outside, it would be easy just to keep the scribing inside.  I have a prototype photo somewhere.  As soon as I find it, I will post it here.  Its truly uncanny how well the Ambroid kit comes close to the prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                Regards, Vic Bitleris
Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                From: jbortle@...
                                                                                                                                                                Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 17:34:17 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Insulated Tank Car

                                                                                                                                                                















                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                


    
                                                                                                                                                                
            Among Ambroid's "1 of 5,000" freight car kits was their #4, the Riverside Oil insulated tank car. The tank wrap on this car was a scribed piece of thin stock that, when the model was completed, gave the exterior a unique, corrugated appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                
The question arose on another forum this morning as to whether this scribing was actually done to facilitate bending the tank wrap without splitting, or did the actual car indeed have a corrugated exterior? So far, no one has been able to provide a photo of any prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                
What's the consensus of folks here regarding this car?
                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                
CNJ999 
                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                  

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                
	
	
	
	


	


	
	
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9220
						From: Fair-In-Ra@webtv.net
						Date: 3/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                I don't have any photo documentation, but as best I can recall the
                                                                                                                                                                
exterior corrugation was real. The end panels of the tank wrap were
                                                                                                                                                                
flat, not curved and had matching corrugation. HTH    Mike F.
                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9221
						From: Victor Bitleris
						Date: 3/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                  



 
Here it is.  Actually the corrugations look like corrugated steel.  Shall I put this in our Photos section?
                                                                                                                                                                  Regards, Vic Bitleris
Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                  From: jbortle@...
                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 17:34:17 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Insulated Tank Car

                                                                                                                                                                  















                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  


    
                                                                                                                                                                  
            Among Ambroid's "1 of 5,000" freight car kits was their #4, the Riverside Oil insulated tank car. The tank wrap on this car was a scribed piece of thin stock that, when the model was completed, gave the exterior a unique, corrugated appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
The question arose on another forum this morning as to whether this scribing was actually done to facilitate bending the tank wrap without splitting, or did the actual car indeed have a corrugated exterior? So far, no one has been able to provide a photo of any prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
What's the consensus of folks here regarding this car?
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
CNJ999 
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                    

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                  
	
	
	
	


	


	
	
                                                                                                                                                                  Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. Find out more. 

                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9222
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 3/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  It seems like I have seen one preserved somewhere, maybe the Museum of Transportation in St Louis?  I believe it had an aluminum tank with steel warpping and insulation for protection, and was used to haul some caustic product.  Anyone with first hand knowledge might be able to set me straight?
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Here it is.  Actually the corrugations look like corrugated steel.  Shall I put this in our Photos section?
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Regards, Vic Bitleris
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Raleigh, NC
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9223
						From: Fair-In-Ra@webtv.net
						Date: 3/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: While on the subject of Old car kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  Larry,     Yes, most of the old wood kits used actual staples for steps.
                                                                                                                                                                  
There were as many different sizes and thicknesses as there were kit
                                                                                                                                                                  
makers. I still use staples today to represent flat bar stock. The
                                                                                                                                                                  
problem for me with vintage wood kits, which I dearly love, has always
                                                                                                                                                                  
been that the steps, grab irons, truss rods, brake shafts, platform
                                                                                                                                                                  
railings etc. are ridiculously over-sized. Central Valley drop style
                                                                                                                                                                  
grabs are a good example. Those things are bigger around than a truss
                                                                                                                                                                  
rod and would scale out to 4-5" in diameter. Over-sized grabs can make
                                                                                                                                                                  
an otherwise fine looking model appear toy-like. They still beat cast-on
                                                                                                                                                                  
grabs though.     Mike Farina
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9224
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 3/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  Victor B.,
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
I believe you are on the right track about a caustic product being carried.  Red Ball offered a similar shaped tank car kit, but with smooth wrapper and ends which was an exact model of a Monsanto Nitric Acid tank car. Prototype photos of that car have been published as well. That Red Ball model was first introduced in the early 1940's in an early, non-prototypical road name, then signifigantly upgraded in the late 1940's around the time that John Anderson became involved with M. Dale Newton.  (There was also a revised humorous non prototypical version of wrapper available "Itstinks & Howe.")
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
In the circa 1980's Wabash Valley period Red Ball editions, some of the diecast typemetal parts were replaced by injection molded styrene parts, and the wrapper was beautifully printed on sheet styrene instead of card.  I believe that current Red Ball owner Merle Rice still has a couple kits available, see www.mrrwarehouse.com
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W. (yes, I'm a big Red Ball collector/modeler)
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> It seems like I have seen one preserved somewhere, maybe the Museum of Transportation in St Louis?  I believe it had an aluminum tank with steel warpping and insulation for protection, and was used to haul some caustic product.  Anyone with first hand knowledge might be able to set me straight?
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Here it is.  Actually the corrugations look like corrugated steel.  Shall I put this in our Photos section?
                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Regards, Vic Bitleris
                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Raleigh, NC
                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9225
						From: jay matz
						Date: 3/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  The photo I saw was a wood car. The car in your photo is steel.
                                                                                                                                                                  Maybe  there were different cars .
                                                                                                                                                                  Jay


                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                  






    
                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                  






                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                  From: jbortle@aol. com
                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 17:34:17 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Insulated Tank Car

                                                                                                                                                                  















                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  


    
                                                                                                                                                                  
            Among Ambroid's "1 of 5,000" freight car kits was their #4, the Riverside Oil insulated tank car. The tank wrap on this car was a scribed piece of thin stock that, when the model was completed, gave the exterior a unique, corrugated appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
The question arose on another forum this morning as to whether this scribing was actually done to facilitate bending the tank wrap without splitting, or did the actual car indeed have a corrugated exterior? So far, no one has been able to provide a photo of any prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
What's the consensus of folks here regarding this car?
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
CNJ999 
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                    

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                  
	
	
	
	


	


	
	
                                                                                                                                                                  Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. Find out more.

                                                                                                                                                                  
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                    


	 
	
	

                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9226
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 3/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  It is the Monsanto car that is at the Museum of Transport in St Louis.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Victor B.,
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> I believe you are on the right track about a caustic product being carried.  Red Ball offered a similar shaped tank car kit, but with smooth wrapper and ends which was an exact model of a Monsanto Nitric Acid tank car. Prototype photos of that car have been published as well. That Red Ball model was first introduced in the early 1940's in an early, non-prototypical road name, then signifigantly upgraded in the late 1940's around the time that John Anderson became involved with M. Dale Newton.  (There was also a revised humorous non prototypical version of wrapper available "Itstinks & Howe.")
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> In the circa 1980's Wabash Valley period Red Ball editions, some of the diecast typemetal parts were replaced by injection molded styrene parts, and the wrapper was beautifully printed on sheet styrene instead of card.  I believe that current Red Ball owner Merle Rice still has a couple kits available, see www.mrrwarehouse.com
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay W. (yes, I'm a big Red Ball collector/modeler)
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
>  --- 
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9227
						From: Karl Peters
						Date: 3/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Etching
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  IIRC, most of the kits reviewed have the outline and openings etched through, with the finial forming done by the modeller.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  Karl Peters 
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9228
						From: cnj999
						Date: 3/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Here it is.  Actually the corrugations look like corrugated steel.  Shall I put this in our Photos section?
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Regards, Vic Bitleris
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Raleigh, NC
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: jbortle@...
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 17:34:17 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                  Vic - Indeed, please do put your image of the car up in the Photo section. I'm unable to view it in the regular message posts and certainly would like to see what it looked like, as I'm pretty sure some others would too. And thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
CNJ999
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9229
						From: Fred Hultberg
						Date: 3/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Etching
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  Oh. Fine, no problem. That's what we do, but without the connecting tabs.

                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Karl Peters <krlpeters@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  From: Karl Peters <krlpeters@...>
                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Etching
                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Friday, March 27, 2009, 6:07 PM

                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  





                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  IIRC, most of the kits reviewed have the outline and openings etched through, with the finial forming done by the modeller.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  Karl Peters 


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9230
						From: Karl Peters
						Date: 3/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: While on the subject of Old car kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  For the longer lengths of grab irons, one trick is to file a small notch in the side of a metal strip, and drill a hole the right distance away. The hole needs to be a bit bigger than the size wire you will be using, but cannot be too sloppy either, about .005 seems to work good. You place the wire in the hole, bend to the notch, bend at the notch, and clip off.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  The idea is an old one, I have seen it in some MR from the 50's.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  Very handy if you need quanties of an unusual length.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9231
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: While on the subject of Old car kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                      Karl,
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                            Like this idea for 
making longer grab irons , all the same size. Will go great with my needle nose 
pliers tool for smaller items. Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 8:19 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: While on the 
  subject of Old car kits
                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                  For the longer lengths of grab irons, one trick is to file a small 
        notch in the side of a metal strip, and drill a hole the right distance 
        away. The hole needs to be a bit bigger than the size wire you will be 
        using, but cannot be too sloppy either, about .005 seems to work good. 
        You place the wire in the hole, bend to the notch, bend at the notch, 
        and clip off.
                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                  The idea is an old one, I have seen it in some MR from the 
        50's.
                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                  Very handy if you need quanties of an unusual length.
                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                  Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9232
						From: Victor Bitleris
						Date: 3/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  



 
Ok, I added the Riverside photo to Vic's Vintage in the Photos section.  I also added several others.
                                                                                                                                                                  Regards, Vic Bitleris
Raleigh, NC



                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                  From: jbortle@...
                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:50:52 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car

                                                                                                                                                                  















                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  


    
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                               --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Here it is.  Actually the corrugations look like corrugated steel.  Shall I put this in our Photos section?
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Regards, Vic Bitleris
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Raleigh, NC
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: jbortle@...
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 17:34:17 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
Vic - Indeed, please do put your image of the car up in the Photo section. I'm unable to view it in the regular message posts and certainly would like to see what it looked like, as I'm pretty sure some others would too. And thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
CNJ999
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                    

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                  
	
	
	
	


	


	
	
                                                                                                                                                                  Quick access to Windows Live and your favorite MSN content with Internet Explorer 8. 

                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9233
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 3/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: While on the subject of Old car kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                  basically what Grandt has.  Making a supply of 
grab irons is a good TV-watching project--gj
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 5:19 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: While on the 
  subject of Old car kits
                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                  For the longer lengths of grab irons, one trick is to file a small 
        notch in the side of a metal strip, and drill a hole the right distance 
        away. The hole needs to be a bit bigger than the size wire you will be 
        using, but cannot be too sloppy either, about .005 seems to work good. 
        You place the wire in the hole, bend to the notch, bend at the notch, 
        and clip off.
                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                  The idea is an old one, I have seen it in some MR from the 
        50's.
                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                  Very handy if you need quanties of an unusual length.
                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                  Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  

  

                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                  Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.31/2027 - Release 
  Date: 03/27/09 18:51:00
                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9234
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 3/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: clarify IMP type drives
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Thanks, too, for the offer of ID'ing my small chassis.    The drive is almost identical to the one (but with thinner gears bewteen wheelsets) that appeard in the little brass boxcab that was sold to someone on eBay last week, a Japanese prototype of some sort ($47 seemed good).  
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://tinyurl.com/crroj9
                                                                                                                                                                  
>   
                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                  Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                  
so you have a four wheel loco? Thought we were talking about a double 
                                                                                                                                                                  
truck boxcab.... have none those tiny four wheel things, think they were 
                                                                                                                                                                  
meant  as some sort of tongue in cheek  models like the Zinger  cars of 
                                                                                                                                                                  
a later era. Have a few pictures on file but no actual model.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9235
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 3/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: clarify IMP type drives
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
I confused matters by including that reference to that little thing as it has the same sort of gear train that extends between the geared axles that is similar to how at least one phase of the larger PRR O1 models were geared; but yes, much different than a O1. And yes, the B-B trucked units imported by International and others were again a seperate category of locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
Started going through all the old mags and compiling Ad data, but the sun is out so will finish lunch and come back to the project later!
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Thanks, too, for the offer of ID'ing my small chassis.    The drive is almost identical to the one (but with thinner gears bewteen wheelsets) that appeard in the little brass boxcab that was sold to someone on eBay last week, a Japanese prototype of some sort ($47 seemed good).  
                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                  
> > http://tinyurl.com/crroj9
                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                  
> so you have a four wheel loco? Thought we were talking about a double 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> truck boxcab.... have none those tiny four wheel things, think they were 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> meant  as some sort of tongue in cheek  models like the Zinger  cars of 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> a later era. Have a few pictures on file but no actual model.
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9236
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: ballast
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                     In real life how much ballast 
  (width) would be laid on either side of mainline track and 
  what measurement would that be in HO scale.
                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                           
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9237
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 3/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: New Magazine
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Again Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  You may want to follow this link, if you haven't already, this e-magazine is a free download done in rich .pdf format, its interactive, and most important, its free.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  Model Railroad Hobbyist.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9238
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 3/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: ballast
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 





 


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                  It all depends on the railroad and how
they do their roadbeds.  I would say that for the Unpainted and Brass line,
between 1/8” and 3/16” would be a good choice.  Your track is not
on roadbed, like cork, so the 1/8” from the end of the ties should be
best.
                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  From:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009
3:47 PM
                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] ballast
                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                     In real life how much ballast (width) would be
laid on either side of mainline track and what measurement would that be
in HO scale.
                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9239
						From: Jim Waterman
						Date: 3/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop - Jan Lorenzen & Trackside Specialties Conne
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                  Jay
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for the kind words. Feel free to contact me 
if you want more information. Would appreciate if you could send any photos you 
have of the locos that you have. Nice to see that they are still out there. 

                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  I missed my opportunity to pick up a couple of his 
locos. I believe the ones in Jim Heckards' collection were actually from my 
dad's own collection, which he sold as a set in the late 1980's.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  Jim
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9240
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 3/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: While on the subject of Old car kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  A later development of the idea is to use a square tube or bar of the proper inside size. You drill a hole in one face of the tube/bar, completely through the piece. Brass/aluminum hobby shop tube or hardware store steel key-stock would do well.

                                                                                                                                                                  To use, you stick the end of a length of handrail wire into that hole, bend it over, and wrap the wire around the square mandrel until you have a square cornered coil of wire. You'll quickly have a sharp cornered, square coil of wire.

                                                                                                                                                                  The coil will be a bit loose and sloppy, with the exact inside distance bends needed for the front of the grabs.

                                                                                                                                                                  You snip every other grab from the coil....... in the middle of every other side of the coil. With a square tube/bar, you'll have ends/sides that are about half the length of the front bar of the grabs. Use a rectangular tube/bar and you can have longer mounting legs.

                                                                                                                                                                  You'll quickly wind up with pile of properly sized, but slightly spread-legged grabs.

                                                                                                                                                                  Later bend those legs to the proper 90-degree square angle of the grab irons with a pair of light pliers.

                                                                                                                                                                  You'll have a lot of grabs, very swiftly.

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                  On Mar 28, 2009, at 7:19 AM, Karl Peters wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  For the longer lengths of grab irons, one trick is to file a small notch in the side of a metal strip, and drill a hole the right distance away. The hole needs to be a bit bigger than the size wire you will be using, but cannot be too sloppy either, about .005 seems to work good. You place the wire in the hole, bend to the notch, bend at the notch, and clip off.
                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  The idea is an old one, I have seen it in some MR from the 50's.
                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  Very handy if you need quanties of an unusual length.
                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9241
						From: ho_in_hancock
						Date: 3/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Laconia reefer sides
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  Hi, everyone:
                                                                                                                                                                  
Any recommendations as to the best adhesive to use in re-attaching partially lifted sides on old Laconia reefers? These are those pressed aluminum-paper type sides which are supposed to be glued onto the wood body. I have some cars in which just the corners have lifted away from the wood. Has anyone had successful experience with this?
                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                  
Ken
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9242
						From: Fred Hultberg
						Date: 3/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Laconia reefer sides - adhesive
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  Ken, while I haven't any experience directly with Laconia, I heartily recommend a white glue(in name only) called WeldBond. It's NOT like any other white glue, except for the clean-up.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  Avoid other brands - they're for children's tempoaray projects.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  Sure, it costs more, but worth every penny and will glue danged near anything to anything. I have used it for wood-to-wood, paper, glass and metal to things as well. Dries clear. My layout is held together with it, for example. Twenty-nine years in a damp basement, still holding!
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  For porous surfaces, "prine" with diluted WeldBond and let dry. Then use like any other glue, clamping(maybe gently) and allow to dry - probably overnght.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  Any good hardware store should have it. Be siure to get the separate instruction sheet(free and shold be near the product) with it and read it carefully. Amazing stuff! Pity that the print on the sheet is so fine... maybe enlarge in a copier?
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  For this use I wold use it dilted, plan on using capillary action for the primer(no clamping this time) and then brush it in with a cheap toy brush when ready. Clamp final bond.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  Best
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Sat, 3/28/09, ho_in_hancock <kenrobbins39@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  From: ho_in_hancock <kenrobbins39@...>
                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Laconia reefer sides
                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Saturday, March 28, 2009, 10:09 PM

                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  Hi, everyone:
                                                                                                                                                                  Any recommendations as to the best adhesive to use in re-attaching partially lifted sides on old Laconia reefers? These are those pressed aluminum-paper type sides which are supposed to be glued onto the wood body. I have some cars in which just the corners have lifted away from the wood. Has anyone had successful experience with this?
                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                  Ken

                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9243
						From: cnj999
						Date: 3/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ambroid Insulated Tank Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  Hey, guys, thanks for all the input re Ambroid's insulated tank car, particularly the photo! This clears up some longstanding questions I had about the model.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
CNJ999
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9244
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 3/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  Hi All,  
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
I have just posted three photos in my new photo album, Plainsman's Picks, showing vintage assembled kits: a Megow "Cement" Covered Hopper, Walthers 6803 Open Hopper and Varney "CC" tenite sided Stock Car, all lettered for Oak Valley, a private model railroad.  A lifelong friend and model railroader spotted them in Wisconsin where he lives and picked them up for me, part of a dozen or so assembled kits of the 1940's.  The snappy red and white Oak Valley acorn heralds is very attractive and the kits were assembled with a high level of skill.  Can anyone shed light on who the "Brass Hat" of the Oak Valley was?  His name should be with the models.  My search of the model railraod magazine databse showed nothing, but I am not sure it picks up private road names from Carsten's RMC or other registries.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9245
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   > Hi All,  
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have just posted three photos in my new photo album, Plainsman's Picks, showing vintage assembled kits: a Megow "Cement" Covered Hopper, Walthers 6803 Open Hopper and Varney "CC" tenite sided Stock Car, all lettered for Oak Valley, a private model railroad.  A lifelong friend and model railroader spotted them in Wisconsin where he lives and picked them up for me, part of a dozen or so assembled kits of the 1940's.  The snappy red and white Oak Valley acorn heralds is very attractive and the kits were assembled with a high level of skill.  Can anyone shed light on who the "Brass Hat" of the Oak Valley was?  His name should be with the models.  My search of the model railraod magazine databse showed nothing, but I am not sure it picks up private road names from Carsten's RMC or other registries.
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                  
>   
                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
Please tell us more about this database.... I also have a few 
                                                                                                                                                                  
interurbans and freight cars lettered for private roadnames , and would 
                                                                                                                                                                  
be curious about their background. Maybe they show up there.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9246
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: E-unit on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  Hi group,
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
there is a vintage cast brass E-unit shell on auction , ending in 16 
                                                                                                                                                                  
hours... thought somebody might be interested.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=380113307829
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9247
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  I've forwarded this message to our local Milwaukee list, to see if anyone 
                                                                                                                                                                  
recognizes the roadname.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 9:39 PM
                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have just posted three photos in my new photo album, Plainsman's Picks, 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> showing vintage assembled kits: a Megow "Cement" Covered Hopper, Walthers 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 6803 Open Hopper and Varney "CC" tenite sided Stock Car, all lettered for 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Oak Valley, a private model railroad.  A lifelong friend and model 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> railroader spotted them in Wisconsin where he lives and picked them up for 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> me, part of a dozen or so assembled kits of the 1940's.  The snappy red 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> and white Oak Valley acorn heralds is very attractive and the kits were 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> assembled with a high level of skill.  Can anyone shed light on who the 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> "Brass Hat" of the Oak Valley was?  His name should be with the models. 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> My search of the model railraod magazine databse showed nothing, but I am 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> not sure it picks up private road names from Carsten's RMC or other 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> registries.
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9248
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: E-unit on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                       Was checking out the brass 
body from Ebay you sent. I see someone suggested to the buyer it is Crescent. I 
was ready to say Crescent when I read this. The engine is not cast. It is formed 
sheet brass (just like the vent pieces that go on top). The bottom picture is 
deceiving. The thickness you see it the bottom bent over with holes to accept 
the missing floor. A second give away is the noses pieces soldered together. 
This engine actually came in a couple of boxes much like some early Varney 
steam.  The nose pieces with instructions for shaping / soldering was one 
box. The body and floor came in another I don't know if it was only two as 
that's all I have with parts in them.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                     I also have a completed model painted 
and decaled by me. If I remember (and I just got up) they were made in Baltimore 
Maryland. I will have to go down and check. I have an appointment for 9 A.M. and 
can't check right now. I will send pictures of a completed engine along with 
pieces for another and the boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 4:57 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] E-unit on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                  Hi group,

                                                                                                                                                                  there is a vintage cast brass E-unit shell on auction , 
  ending in 16 
                                                                                                                                                                  hours... thought somebody might be interested.

                                                                                                                                                                  http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT&item=38011330 7829

                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold

                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9249
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: E-unit on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for spotting this!
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
I've had a nose-less shell of this for 10-20 years and now I know who  
                                                                                                                                                                  
made it, and about when.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
"Just an FYI: engine shell is by Crescent Models of Baltimore, Md;  
                                                                                                                                                                  
circa early 1950's."
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
It seems that the models might have a cast nose-top, or that is a  
                                                                                                                                                                  
separate formed piece of brass with a length of brass tubing for the  
                                                                                                                                                                  
upper headlight housing.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
While the rest of the model is formed etched sheet brass. The nose  
                                                                                                                                                                  
wrap seems to be formed sheet metal in the auction, and the rest of  
                                                                                                                                                                  
the body from the front cab windows back are all sheet metal on the  
                                                                                                                                                                  
shell I have.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
It seems to be much better detailed than the Oriental imports were at  
                                                                                                                                                                  
the time, and for about 20 years after these models.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   On Mar 30, 2009, at 3:57 AM, Gerold Eckl wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi group,
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> there is a vintage cast brass E-unit shell on auction , ending in 16
                                                                                                                                                                  
> hours... thought somebody might be interested.
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=380113307829
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold 
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9250
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  Those are quite nice pieces.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
I hope you will replace the missing hatches and roof-walk on the  
                                                                                                                                                                  
covered hopper and dare to touch up the paint on the roof and perhaps  
                                                                                                                                                                  
the frayed lower edge of the paper sides. An airbrush and creative  
                                                                                                                                                                  
masking would be a great tool for that.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
I notice that the herald on the covered hopper is a good, clean image  
                                                                                                                                                                  
on the pictures. Making new operating cars with the matching  
                                                                                                                                                                  
lettering and applied, computer printed shields of that herald  
                                                                                                                                                                  
[likely printed on photo paper and cut-out]......... would make some  
                                                                                                                                                                  
interesting exchange cars on a contemporary model railroad.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
It would be a kick to see a few model railroads running some exchange  
                                                                                                                                                                  
cars for the long gone Oak Valley lines.............
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
As for the database........ Does anyone here have one of the  
                                                                                                                                                                  
registers for the NMRA Private Road Name Registry SIG ???
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
I se there is a Yahoo group for this........ I'll ask about the road,  
                                                                                                                                                                  
there.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   On Mar 30, 2009, at 3:10 AM, Gerold Eckl wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                  
> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                  
>> I have just posted three photos in my new photo album, Plainsman's  
                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Picks, showing vintage assembled kits: a Megow "Cement" Covered  
                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Hopper, Walthers 6803 Open Hopper and Varney "CC" tenite sided  
                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Stock Car, all lettered for Oak Valley, a private model railroad.   
                                                                                                                                                                  
>> A lifelong friend and model railroader spotted them in Wisconsin  
                                                                                                                                                                  
>> where he lives and picked them up for me, part of a dozen or so  
                                                                                                                                                                  
>> assembled kits of the 1940's.  The snappy red and white Oak Valley  
                                                                                                                                                                  
>> acorn heralds is very attractive and the kits were assembled with  
                                                                                                                                                                  
>> a high level of skill.  Can anyone shed light on who the "Brass  
                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Hat" of the Oak Valley was?  His name should be with the models.   
                                                                                                                                                                  
>> My search of the model railraod magazine databse showed nothing,  
                                                                                                                                                                  
>> but I am not sure it picks up private road names from Carsten's  
                                                                                                                                                                  
>> RMC or other registries.
                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Please tell us more about this database.... I also have a few
                                                                                                                                                                  
> interurbans and freight cars lettered for private roadnames , and  
                                                                                                                                                                  
> would
                                                                                                                                                                  
> be curious about their background. Maybe they show up there.
                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold 
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9251
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  
The below just came up in a vintage RR models  list.

                                                                                                                                                                  "Can anyone shed light on who the "Brass Hat" of the Oak Valley was?  His name should be with the models.  My search of the model railraod magazine databse showed nothing,..........."

                                                                                                                                                                  It was possibly a Wisconsin  model railroad.

                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks guys,

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                  Begin forwarded message:

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                  Date: March 29, 2009 9:39:28 PM CDT
                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?

                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                  Hi All,  

                                                                                                                                                                  I have just posted three photos in my new photo album, Plainsman's Picks, showing vintage assembled kits: a Megow "Cement" Covered Hopper, Walthers 6803 Open Hopper and Varney "CC" tenite sided Stock Car, all lettered for Oak Valley, a private model railroad.  A lifelong friend and model railroader spotted them in Wisconsin where he lives and picked them up for me, part of a dozen or so assembled kits of the 1940's.  The snappy red and white Oak Valley acorn heralds is very attractive and the kits were assembled with a high level of skill.  Can anyone shed light on who the "Brass Hat" of the Oak Valley was?  His name should be with the models.  My search of the model railraod magazine databse showed nothing, but I am not sure it picks up private road names from Carsten's RMC or other registries.

                                                                                                                                                                  Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9252
						From: frank
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Photos added to tottrain album
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Alpvalsys@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                  
> In a message dated 3/20/2009 6:18:54 PM EDT, toptrain2100 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> I added 8 photos to my album. 1- Lionel E-33
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> ---------------
                                                                                                                                                                  
> I kind of glossed over your message because I thought you meant a REAL E-33 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> (VGN EL-C), i.e. a C-C unit.  I just checked the photos you posted and realized 
                                                                                                                                                                  
> that you meant Revell's SHORT (B-B) E-33 on a GP-9 chassis (with type B trucks?).  
                                                                                                                                                                  
>Ralph B.
                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                     Ralph.
                                                                                                                                                                  
No This model isn't Revell but Lionel. The body was made by Athearn. Athearn also released it as one of their locomotives.
                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                   > 
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9253
						From: frank
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Photos added to toptrain album
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  I added photos of Lionel E33s,Penn Line GG1s, and John English Pacifics.
                                                                                                                                                                  
              frank
                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9254
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Ebay Brass Engine Body
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                     Hi Gerold, Mike B, All,
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                 
These are pictures of my Crescent Model E-6 like the one on Ebay Gerold 
sent. The first picture is a completed model that I painted and decaled. Excuse 
that the decals are so visible. Never got a coat of Dullcoat on it. The next two 
pictures show the plans, different boxes and many extra parts.You can see an 
extra nose piece and the plans to make it.You have to form and solder it. The 
drive is a single 6 wheel drive that is something common with open frame motor. 
Not sure whose. Could be Walthers or Andeco. Have a complete assembly sheet not 
shown but all were given to HOseeker and on his site. Let me know if there is 
anything else you would like to know.  I "think" there was a B unit 
made.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                           To Mike 
B   If this extra assembled nose piece or other parts will help you 
contact me off site at  jimheck@....
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9255
						From: Bill DeFoe
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fwd: [vintageHO] Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    In the NMRA's Official Register of Model Railroads, (1988 issue), the Oak Valley is listed.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
The owner is stated to be:  "Gerald F. Engels of Chicago, IL".  I won't post his complete address for privacy reasons.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9256
						From: Bill DeFoe
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fwd: [vintageHO] Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    I'm sorry, I must correct the previous post.
                                                                                                                                                                    
The correct name for the owner of the Oak Valley is:
                                                                                                                                                                    
"Gerard (not Gerald) F. Engals"
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> In the NMRA's Official Register of Model Railroads, (1988 issue), the Oak Valley is listed.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> The owner is stated to be:  "Gerald F. Engels of Chicago, IL".  I won't post his complete address for privacy reasons.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9257
						From: Bill DeFoe
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fwd: [vintageHO] Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    I really must get more sleep!  I made another typo.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Oak Valley
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerard F. Engels (els, not als)
                                                                                                                                                                    
Chicago, IL
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
This time it is correct.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm sorry, I must correct the previous post.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> The correct name for the owner of the Oak Valley is:
                                                                                                                                                                    
> "Gerard (not Gerald) F. Engals"
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > In the NMRA's Official Register of Model Railroads, (1988 issue), the Oak Valley is listed.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The owner is stated to be:  "Gerald F. Engels of Chicago, IL".  I won't post his complete address for privacy reasons.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9258
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: T.S. O-1c plans
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                      Jay W , Jim 
W  
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                               I received 
the set of plans for the Trackside Specialties O-1c and really appreciate them. 
That little ad is neat also.  Hope you can send them on to Larry (HOseeker) 
for his site. Sure they will come in handy for someone.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                          That ad has me a 
little baffled as it says they (TS) has custom kits for a C&O  2-10-2 
and a 2-10-4. The ad seems to say they are in stock. This is the first I have 
heard mention of them.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                            To Jim 
W, do you have any knowledge of these ? Anyone ?
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                             
Again thanks.  If I find the B-1 rat plans I send them to 
you.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9259
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Trackside/TLW  C & O steam
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H.,  
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Glad you received them already.  I did see two of the Trackside HO Scale C&O ten-coupled steam locomotive kits a few years ago at a small local club sponsored show that comes up each year and will ask around about them. I do not know if the seller said they were by Trackside or The Locomotive Workshop. Truthfully, the price was good, but I hestitated a bit as hobby coin was scarce at the time and I was unfamiliar with them and did not realize how signifigant they were. Had they been Erie, I would have taken the plunge anyway.   
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Shoulda, Coulda, particularly after I came back home and checked out my references. They looked a bit like the Quality Craft or Ambroid "Box 'O Sticks" kits, but made of brass, a "Box 'O Brass" (included drivers, frame, etc. I think cab and boilers were pre-formed or alreday assembled.)
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
And yes, I'm finally methodically inventorying my collection of catalogs and paper (Red Ball done long ago) and making a note what HO Seeker needs.  Some neat old stuff that needs to be seen, including Bathgate illustrated folders, etc.  
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Jay W , Jim W  
                                                                                                                                                                    
>            I received the set of plans for the Trackside Specialties O-1c and really appreciate them. That little ad is neat also.  Hope you can send them on to Larry (HOseeker) for his site. Sure they will come in handy for someone.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>       That ad has me a little baffled as it says they (TS) has custom kits for a C&O  2-10-2 and a 2-10-4. The ad seems to say they are in stock. This is the first I have heard mention of them.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>         To Jim W, do you have any knowledge of these ? Anyone ?
                                                                                                                                                                    
>          Again thanks.  If I find the B-1 rat plans I send them to you.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9260
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Oak Valley - Private Road of Gerard F. Engels
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Bill DeF.,
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
THANK YOU for the quick I.D., And yes, the name and locale are enough.  It is great being able to identify the builder and give him credit. I plan on posting three more examples of his work tonight, not Oak Valley, but one very prototypical but unusual car, and two others of models not seen too often outside of this group. 
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> I really must get more sleep!  I made another typo.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Oak Valley
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gerard F. Engels (els, not als)
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chicago, IL
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> This time it is correct.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I'm sorry, I must correct the previous post.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The correct name for the owner of the Oak Valley is:
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > "Gerard (not Gerald) F. Engals"
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill DeFoe" <defoe242@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > In the NMRA's Official Register of Model Railroads, (1988 issue), the Oak Valley is listed.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > The owner is stated to be:  "Gerald F. Engels of Chicago, IL".  I won't post his complete address for privacy reasons.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9261
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Oak Valley - Private Road of Gerard F. Engels
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Mike B.,
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Yes, I found three partially completed, boxed Megow Cement hoppers at a local show this past January, and one will be the sacrificial unit to restore the Oak Valley model. No problem with parts on the Walthers and Varney cars.  Funny you mentioned decals, as the covered hopper is missing the acorn herald on one side, no evidence if it being applied, so I had kind of thought of doing a scan and having a buddy make them up in the future as he is proficient at that.  Will let you know if we proceed, but for the time being, he is working off site and only gtes home for weekends with his family.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Those are quite nice pieces.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> I hope you will replace the missing hatches and roof-walk on the  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> covered hopper and dare to touch up the paint on the roof and perhaps  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> the frayed lower edge of the paper sides. An airbrush and creative  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> masking would be a great tool for that.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> I notice that the herald on the covered hopper is a good, clean image  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> on the pictures. Making new operating cars with the matching  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> lettering and applied, computer printed shields of that herald  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> [likely printed on photo paper and cut-out]......... would make some  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> interesting exchange cars on a contemporary model railroad.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> It would be a kick to see a few model railroads running some exchange  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> cars for the long gone Oak Valley lines.............
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> As for the database........ Does anyone here have one of the  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> registers for the NMRA Private Road Name Registry SIG ???
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> I se there is a Yahoo group for this........ I'll ask about the road,  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> there.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> On Mar 30, 2009, at 3:10 AM, Gerold Eckl wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> I have just posted three photos in my new photo album, Plainsman's  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Picks, showing vintage assembled kits: a Megow "Cement" Covered  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Hopper, Walthers 6803 Open Hopper and Varney "CC" tenite sided  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Stock Car, all lettered for Oak Valley, a private model railroad.   
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> A lifelong friend and model railroader spotted them in Wisconsin  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> where he lives and picked them up for me, part of a dozen or so  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> assembled kits of the 1940's.  The snappy red and white Oak Valley  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> acorn heralds is very attractive and the kits were assembled with  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> a high level of skill.  Can anyone shed light on who the "Brass  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Hat" of the Oak Valley was?  His name should be with the models.   
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> My search of the model railraod magazine databse showed nothing,  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> but I am not sure it picks up private road names from Carsten's  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> RMC or other registries.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Please tell us more about this database.... I also have a few
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > interurbans and freight cars lettered for private roadnames , and  
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > would
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > be curious about their background. Maybe they show up there.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9262
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Trackside/TLW  C & O steam
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                       I have one Bathgate passenger car and 
that is all I know about them.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 3:41 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside/TLW C 
  & O steam
                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H., 

                                                                                                                                                                    Glad you received them already. I did see two of the 
  Trackside HO Scale C&O ten-coupled steam locomotive kits a few years ago 
  at a small local club sponsored show that comes up each year and will ask 
  around about them. I do not know if the seller said they were by Trackside or 
  The Locomotive Workshop. Truthfully, the price was good, but I hestitated a 
  bit as hobby coin was scarce at the time and I was unfamiliar with them and 
  did not realize how signifigant they were. Had they been Erie, I would have 
  taken the plunge anyway. 

                                                                                                                                                                    Shoulda, Coulda, particularly after I came 
  back home and checked out my references. They looked a bit like the Quality 
  Craft or Ambroid "Box 'O Sticks" kits, but made of brass, a "Box 'O Brass" 
  (included drivers, frame, etc. I think cab and boilers were pre-formed or 
  alreday assembled.)

                                                                                                                                                                    And yes, I'm finally methodically inventorying my 
  collection of catalogs and paper (Red Ball done long ago) and making a note 
  what HO Seeker needs. Some neat old stuff that needs to be seen, including 
  Bathgate illustrated folders, etc. 

                                                                                                                                                                    Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    > Jay W , Jim W 
  
                                                                                                                                                                    > I received the set of plans for the Trackside Specialties O-1c and 
  really appreciate them. That little ad is neat also. Hope you can send them on 
  to Larry (HOseeker) for his site. Sure they will come in handy for 
  someone.
                                                                                                                                                                    > That ad has me a little baffled as it says they (TS) has 
  custom kits for a C&O 2-10-2 and a 2-10-4. The ad seems to say they are in 
  stock. This is the first I have heard mention of them.
                                                                                                                                                                    > To Jim W, do 
  you have any knowledge of these ? Anyone ?
                                                                                                                                                                    > Again thanks. If I find the 
  B-1 rat plans I send them to you.
                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9263
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ID'ing  Private Roads
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Bill De F. posted the paticulars of the NMRA listing he used in message # 9255 above.  In the 1940's and possibly early 1950's Railroad Model Craftsman had a model pike registry that was later discontinued, (seperate from the later pass exchange column). Searching that could be tedious issue by issue, and I am willing to bet someone has already made a master list of those, posibly someone in the NMRA SIG that Bill De F. mentioned.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Please tell us more about this database.... I also have a few 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> interurbans and freight cars lettered for private roadnames , and would 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> be curious about their background. Maybe they show up there.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9264
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Ebay Brass Engine Body
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    I'm very tempted to bid on it myself if nobody wants it worse.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
I have one very similar, the sides and roof are the same idea, but the nose 
                                                                                                                                                                    
is carved from wood.  I had a picture of it up on the list site a while 
                                                                                                                                                                    
back, but no one could identify it.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:08 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Ebay Brass Engine Body
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Hi Gerold, Mike B, All,
                                                                                                                                                                    
             These are pictures of my Crescent Model E-6 like the one on 
                                                                                                                                                                    
Ebay Gerold sent. The first picture is a completed model that I painted and 
                                                                                                                                                                    
decaled. Excuse that the decals are so visible. Never got a coat of Dullcoat 
                                                                                                                                                                    
on it. The next two pictures show the plans, different boxes and many extra 
                                                                                                                                                                    
parts.You can see an extra nose piece and the plans to make it.You have to 
                                                                                                                                                                    
form and solder it. The drive is a single 6 wheel drive that is something 
                                                                                                                                                                    
common with open frame motor. Not sure whose. Could be Walthers or Andeco. 
                                                                                                                                                                    
Have a complete assembly sheet not shown but all were given to HOseeker and 
                                                                                                                                                                    
on his site. Let me know if there is anything else you would like to know. 
                                                                                                                                                                    
I "think" there was a B unit made.
                                                                                                                                                                    
       To Mike B   If this extra assembled nose piece or other parts will 
                                                                                                                                                                    
help you contact me off site at  jimheck@....
                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                    
                  Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9265
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    I talked to Joe Russ over on scheduleboard, he said it wasn't listed in the 
                                                                                                                                                                    
NMRA private road name directory.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
He did ask "What part of Wisconsin?" (it is a fairly large state <G>) and 
                                                                                                                                                                    
also if the herald was decaled or printed.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
> Those are quite nice pieces.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> I hope you will replace the missing hatches and roof-walk on the
                                                                                                                                                                    
> covered hopper and dare to touch up the paint on the roof and perhaps
                                                                                                                                                                    
> the frayed lower edge of the paper sides. An airbrush and creative
                                                                                                                                                                    
> masking would be a great tool for that.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> I notice that the herald on the covered hopper is a good, clean image
                                                                                                                                                                    
> on the pictures. Making new operating cars with the matching
                                                                                                                                                                    
> lettering and applied, computer printed shields of that herald
                                                                                                                                                                    
> [likely printed on photo paper and cut-out]......... would make some
                                                                                                                                                                    
> interesting exchange cars on a contemporary model railroad.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> It would be a kick to see a few model railroads running some exchange
                                                                                                                                                                    
> cars for the long gone Oak Valley lines.............
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> As for the database........ Does anyone here have one of the
                                                                                                                                                                    
> registers for the NMRA Private Road Name Registry SIG ???
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> I se there is a Yahoo group for this........ I'll ask about the road,
                                                                                                                                                                    
> there.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> On Mar 30, 2009, at 3:10 AM, Gerold Eckl wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> I have just posted three photos in my new photo album, Plainsman's
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Picks, showing vintage assembled kits: a Megow "Cement" Covered
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Hopper, Walthers 6803 Open Hopper and Varney "CC" tenite sided
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Stock Car, all lettered for Oak Valley, a private model railroad.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> A lifelong friend and model railroader spotted them in Wisconsin
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> where he lives and picked them up for me, part of a dozen or so
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> assembled kits of the 1940's.  The snappy red and white Oak Valley
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> acorn heralds is very attractive and the kits were assembled with
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> a high level of skill.  Can anyone shed light on who the "Brass
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Hat" of the Oak Valley was?  His name should be with the models.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> My search of the model railraod magazine databse showed nothing,
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> but I am not sure it picks up private road names from Carsten's
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> RMC or other registries.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Please tell us more about this database.... I also have a few
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> interurbans and freight cars lettered for private roadnames , and
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> would
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> be curious about their background. Maybe they show up there.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9266
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Oak Valley - Private Road - Who's?
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Don D.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
The models were found in the Milwaukee area, which is why I suggested Wisconsin, but Bill De Feo found the road listed under Illinois, see message 9255.  Oak Valley is a nicely registerd two color decal, probably Walthers as they did advertise services to create private road custom decals frequently.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> I talked to Joe Russ over on scheduleboard, he said it wasn't listed in the 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> NMRA private road name directory.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> He did ask "What part of Wisconsin?" (it is a fairly large state <G>) and 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> also if the herald was decaled or printed.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Those are quite nice pieces.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I hope you will replace the missing hatches and roof-walk on the
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > covered hopper and dare to touch up the paint on the roof and perhaps
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the frayed lower edge of the paper sides. An airbrush and creative
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > masking would be a great tool for that.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I notice that the herald on the covered hopper is a good, clean image
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > on the pictures. Making new operating cars with the matching
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > lettering and applied, computer printed shields of that herald
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > [likely printed on photo paper and cut-out]......... would make some
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > interesting exchange cars on a contemporary model railroad.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > It would be a kick to see a few model railroads running some exchange
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > cars for the long gone Oak Valley lines.............
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > As for the database........ Does anyone here have one of the
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > registers for the NMRA Private Road Name Registry SIG ???
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I se there is a Yahoo group for this........ I'll ask about the road,
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > there.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > On Mar 30, 2009, at 3:10 AM, Gerold Eckl wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> I have just posted three photos in my new photo album, Plainsman's
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> Picks, showing vintage assembled kits: a Megow "Cement" Covered
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> Hopper, Walthers 6803 Open Hopper and Varney "CC" tenite sided
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> Stock Car, all lettered for Oak Valley, a private model railroad.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> A lifelong friend and model railroader spotted them in Wisconsin
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> where he lives and picked them up for me, part of a dozen or so
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> assembled kits of the 1940's.  The snappy red and white Oak Valley
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> acorn heralds is very attractive and the kits were assembled with
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> a high level of skill.  Can anyone shed light on who the "Brass
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> Hat" of the Oak Valley was?  His name should be with the models.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> My search of the model railraod magazine databse showed nothing,
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> but I am not sure it picks up private road names from Carsten's
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> RMC or other registries.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Please tell us more about this database.... I also have a few
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> interurbans and freight cars lettered for private roadnames , and
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> would
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> be curious about their background. Maybe they show up there.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9267
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Oak Valley - Private Road - Who's?
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    Well, we ARE in Milwaukee, Chicago's only 80 miles away <G>.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Anyway, I do see someone else did ID it, so glad it worked out.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 6:45 PM
                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Oak Valley - Private Road - Who's?
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Don D.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> The models were found in the Milwaukee area, which is why I suggested 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Wisconsin, but Bill De Feo found the road listed under Illinois, see 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> message 9255.  Oak Valley is a nicely registerd two color decal, probably 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Walthers as they did advertise services to create private road custom 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> decals frequently.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I talked to Joe Russ over on scheduleboard, he said it wasn't listed in 
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> NMRA private road name directory.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> He did ask "What part of Wisconsin?" (it is a fairly large state <G>) and
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> also if the herald was decaled or printed.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Don
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Oak Valley - Private Wisconsin Road - Who's?
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Those are quite nice pieces.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > I hope you will replace the missing hatches and roof-walk on the
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > covered hopper and dare to touch up the paint on the roof and perhaps
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > the frayed lower edge of the paper sides. An airbrush and creative
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > masking would be a great tool for that.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > I notice that the herald on the covered hopper is a good, clean image
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > on the pictures. Making new operating cars with the matching
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > lettering and applied, computer printed shields of that herald
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > [likely printed on photo paper and cut-out]......... would make some
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > interesting exchange cars on a contemporary model railroad.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > It would be a kick to see a few model railroads running some exchange
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > cars for the long gone Oak Valley lines.............
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > As for the database........ Does anyone here have one of the
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > registers for the NMRA Private Road Name Registry SIG ???
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > I se there is a Yahoo group for this........ I'll ask about the road,
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > there.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > On Mar 30, 2009, at 3:10 AM, Gerold Eckl wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>> Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>> I have just posted three photos in my new photo album, Plainsman's
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>> Picks, showing vintage assembled kits: a Megow "Cement" Covered
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>> Hopper, Walthers 6803 Open Hopper and Varney "CC" tenite sided
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>> Stock Car, all lettered for Oak Valley, a private model railroad.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>> A lifelong friend and model railroader spotted them in Wisconsin
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>> where he lives and picked them up for me, part of a dozen or so
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>> assembled kits of the 1940's.  The snappy red and white Oak Valley
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>> acorn heralds is very attractive and the kits were assembled with
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>> a high level of skill.  Can anyone shed light on who the "Brass
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>> Hat" of the Oak Valley was?  His name should be with the models.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>> My search of the model railraod magazine databse showed nothing,
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>> but I am not sure it picks up private road names from Carsten's
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>> RMC or other registries.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> Please tell us more about this database.... I also have a few
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> interurbans and freight cars lettered for private roadnames , and
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> would
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> be curious about their background. Maybe they show up there.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9268
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: E-unit on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    I did put in a bid on it, we'll see what happens.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
The same seller has a couple other interesting items at what seems a fair 
                                                                                                                                                                    
price.  A >New One" Aristo Frisco 2-8-2 that doesn't run, but under twenty 
                                                                                                                                                                    
bucks, a HObbyline 0-4-0 kit under ten, and an original all cast Mantua flat 
                                                                                                                                                                    
car (I'd bid on that one but I have four of them already on the workbench).
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:24 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] E-unit on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
     Was checking out the brass body from Ebay you sent. I see someone 
                                                                                                                                                                    
suggested to the buyer it is Crescent. I was ready to say Crescent when I 
                                                                                                                                                                    
read this. The engine is not cast. It is formed sheet brass (just like the 
                                                                                                                                                                    
vent pieces that go on top). The bottom picture is deceiving. The thickness 
                                                                                                                                                                    
you see it the bottom bent over with holes to accept the missing floor. A 
                                                                                                                                                                    
second give away is the noses pieces soldered together. This engine actually 
                                                                                                                                                                    
came in a couple of boxes much like some early Varney steam.  The nose 
                                                                                                                                                                    
pieces with instructions for shaping / soldering was one box. The body and 
                                                                                                                                                                    
floor came in another I don't know if it was only two as that's all I have 
                                                                                                                                                                    
with parts in them.
                                                                                                                                                                    
   I also have a completed model painted and decaled by me. If I remember 
                                                                                                                                                                    
(and I just got up) they were made in Baltimore Maryland. I will have to go 
                                                                                                                                                                    
down and check. I have an appointment for 9 A.M. and can't check right now. 
                                                                                                                                                                    
I will send pictures of a completed engine along with pieces for another and 
                                                                                                                                                                    
the boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                    
               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                    
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
  From: Gerold Eckl
                                                                                                                                                                    
  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    
  Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 4:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    
  Subject: [vintageHO] E-unit on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
  Hi group,
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
  there is a vintage cast brass E-unit shell on auction , ending in 16
                                                                                                                                                                    
  hours... thought somebody might be interested.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=380113307829
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
  Gerold 
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9270
						From: Don Grant
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Sorry
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry about the "yellow raincoat".
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    Hit wrong button.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9271
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: E-unit on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    Somebody else got it, anybody we know here?
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] E-unit on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
>I did put in a bid on it, we'll see what happens.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> The same seller has a couple other interesting items at what seems a fair
                                                                                                                                                                    
> price.  A >New One" Aristo Frisco 2-8-2 that doesn't run, but under twenty
                                                                                                                                                                    
> bucks, a HObbyline 0-4-0 kit under ten, and an original all cast Mantua 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> flat
                                                                                                                                                                    
> car (I'd bid on that one but I have four of them already on the 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> workbench).
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:24 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] E-unit on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Was checking out the brass body from Ebay you sent. I see someone
                                                                                                                                                                    
> suggested to the buyer it is Crescent. I was ready to say Crescent when I
                                                                                                                                                                    
> read this. The engine is not cast. It is formed sheet brass (just like the
                                                                                                                                                                    
> vent pieces that go on top). The bottom picture is deceiving. The 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> thickness
                                                                                                                                                                    
> you see it the bottom bent over with holes to accept the missing floor. A
                                                                                                                                                                    
> second give away is the noses pieces soldered together. This engine 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> actually
                                                                                                                                                                    
> came in a couple of boxes much like some early Varney steam.  The nose
                                                                                                                                                                    
> pieces with instructions for shaping / soldering was one box. The body and
                                                                                                                                                                    
> floor came in another I don't know if it was only two as that's all I have
                                                                                                                                                                    
> with parts in them.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I also have a completed model painted and decaled by me. If I remember
                                                                                                                                                                    
> (and I just got up) they were made in Baltimore Maryland. I will have to 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> go
                                                                                                                                                                    
> down and check. I have an appointment for 9 A.M. and can't check right 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> now.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> I will send pictures of a completed engine along with pieces for another 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> and
                                                                                                                                                                    
> the boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                    
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
>  From: Gerold Eckl
                                                                                                                                                                    
>  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    
>  Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 4:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    
>  Subject: [vintageHO] E-unit on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>  Hi group,
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>  there is a vintage cast brass E-unit shell on auction , ending in 16
                                                                                                                                                                    
>  hours... thought somebody might be interested.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=380113307829
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>  Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9272
						From: bayerw@comcast.net
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Trackside/TLW  C & O steam
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    Do send a picture when you have a chance, Jim. Love seeing your pix!
                                                                                                                                                                    Walter



                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 4:41:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside/TLW  C & O steam

                                                                                                                                                                    




 



                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    


    
                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                       I have one Bathgate passenger car and 
that is all I know about them.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 3:41 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside/TLW C 
  & O steam
                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H., 

                                                                                                                                                                    Glad you received them already. I did see two of the 
  Trackside HO Scale C&O ten-coupled steam locomotive kits a few years ago 
  at a small local club sponsored show that comes up each year and will ask 
  around about them. I do not know if the seller said they were by Trackside or 
  The Locomotive Workshop. Truthfully, the price was good, but I hestitated a 
  bit as hobby coin was scarce at the time and I was unfamiliar with them and 
  did not realize how signifigant they were. Had they been Erie, I would have 
  taken the plunge anyway. 

                                                                                                                                                                    Shoulda, Coulda, particularly after I came 
  back home and checked out my references. They looked a bit like the Quality 
  Craft or Ambroid "Box 'O Sticks" kits, but made of brass, a "Box 'O Brass" 
  (included drivers, frame, etc. I think cab and boilers were pre-formed or 
  alreday assembled.)

                                                                                                                                                                    And yes, I'm finally methodically inventorying my 
  collection of catalogs and paper (Red Ball done long ago) and making a note 
  what HO Seeker needs. Some neat old stuff that needs to be seen, including 
  Bathgate illustrated folders, etc. 

                                                                                                                                                                    Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    > Jay W , Jim W 
  
                                                                                                                                                                    > I received the set of plans for the Trackside Specialties O-1c and 
  really appreciate them. That little ad is neat also. Hope you can send them on 
  to Larry (HOseeker) for his site. Sure they will come in handy for 
  someone.
                                                                                                                                                                    > That ad has me a little baffled as it says they (TS) has 
  custom kits for a C&O 2-10-2 and a 2-10-4. The ad seems to say they are in 
  stock. This is the first I have heard mention of them.
                                                                                                                                                                    > To Jim W, do 
  you have any knowledge of these ? Anyone ?
                                                                                                                                                                    > Again thanks. If I find the 
  B-1 rat plans I send them to you.
                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                      

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                    
	
	




	
	
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9273
						From: Ray Marinaccio
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sorry
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    I'm not impressed
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     Please discontinue my membership on this site if he is still a member.

                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Mon, 3/30/09, Don Grant <grantdono@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    From: Don Grant <grantdono@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Monday, March 30, 2009, 6:16 PM

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry about the "yellow raincoat".
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    Hit wrong button.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9274
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Today's three new photos in Plainsman's Picks photo album are of a vintage model coke car (fuel) that was found in the small group of ten or so cars including the Oak Valley cars shown yesterday. Even though it is hand lettered like many cars of those days and does not have the Oak Valley herald, this is probably the most outstanding model of the group.  
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Model coke cars are seldom seen, and I am not familiar with any vintage kits for them. So the question is, was this built from a kit or perhaps plans from a 1940's magazine article?  (Decades after this was built, Merle Rice of Red Ball/Wabash Valley had proposed a Wabah RR kit of one in the 1980's or 1990's, but do not think it was ever manufactured.)-
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9275
						From: bayerw@comcast.net
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sorry
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    But it was GOOD!



                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: "Don Grant" <grantdono@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:16:28 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Sorry

                                                                                                                                                                    




 



                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    


    
                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry about the "yellow raincoat".
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    Hit wrong button.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                      

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                    
	
	




	
	
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9276
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: E-unit on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    that flat car is what I consider the "transition" car--first of the die cast 
                                                                                                                                                                    
cars.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 5:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] E-unit on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
>I did put in a bid on it, we'll see what happens.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> The same seller has a couple other interesting items at what seems a fair
                                                                                                                                                                    
> price.  A >New One" Aristo Frisco 2-8-2 that doesn't run, but under twenty
                                                                                                                                                                    
> bucks, a HObbyline 0-4-0 kit under ten, and an original all cast Mantua 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> flat
                                                                                                                                                                    
> car (I'd bid on that one but I have four of them already on the 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> workbench).
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:24 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] E-unit on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Was checking out the brass body from Ebay you sent. I see someone
                                                                                                                                                                    
> suggested to the buyer it is Crescent. I was ready to say Crescent when I
                                                                                                                                                                    
> read this. The engine is not cast. It is formed sheet brass (just like the
                                                                                                                                                                    
> vent pieces that go on top). The bottom picture is deceiving. The 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> thickness
                                                                                                                                                                    
> you see it the bottom bent over with holes to accept the missing floor. A
                                                                                                                                                                    
> second give away is the noses pieces soldered together. This engine 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> actually
                                                                                                                                                                    
> came in a couple of boxes much like some early Varney steam.  The nose
                                                                                                                                                                    
> pieces with instructions for shaping / soldering was one box. The body and
                                                                                                                                                                    
> floor came in another I don't know if it was only two as that's all I have
                                                                                                                                                                    
> with parts in them.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I also have a completed model painted and decaled by me. If I remember
                                                                                                                                                                    
> (and I just got up) they were made in Baltimore Maryland. I will have to 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> go
                                                                                                                                                                    
> down and check. I have an appointment for 9 A.M. and can't check right 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> now.
                                                                                                                                                                    
> I will send pictures of a completed engine along with pieces for another 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> and
                                                                                                                                                                    
> the boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                    
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
>  From: Gerold Eckl
                                                                                                                                                                    
>  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    
>  Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 4:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                    
>  Subject: [vintageHO] E-unit on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>  Hi group,
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>  there is a vintage cast brass E-unit shell on auction , ending in 16
                                                                                                                                                                    
>  hours... thought somebody might be interested.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=380113307829
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>  Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.32/2030 - Release Date: 03/30/09 
                                                                                                                                                                    
08:40:00 
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9277
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Trackside/TLW  C & O steam
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                     Walter,
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                             
Sorry but it must be to late and I was up very early. Is it the 
Bathgate passenger car's picture you would like to see or is it something 
else. ?
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  bayerw@... 
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:46 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 
  Trackside/TLW C & O steam
                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    Do send a 
  picture when you have a chance, Jim. Love seeing your 
  pix!
                                                                                                                                                                    Walter



                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: "jim 
  heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
  Monday, March 30, 2009 4:41:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: 
  [vintageHO] Re: Trackside/TLW  C & O steam

                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                       I have one Bathgate passenger car 
  and that is all I know about them.
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
    Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
    Monday, March 30, 2009 3:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: 
    [vintageHO] Re: Trackside/TLW C & O steam
                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H., 

                                                                                                                                                                    Glad you received them already. I did see two of the 
    Trackside HO Scale C&O ten-coupled steam locomotive kits a few years ago 
    at a small local club sponsored show that comes up each year and will ask 
    around about them. I do not know if the seller said they were by Trackside 
    or The Locomotive Workshop. Truthfully, the price was good, but I hestitated 
    a bit as hobby coin was scarce at the time and I was unfamiliar with them 
    and did not realize how signifigant they were. Had they been Erie, I would 
    have taken the plunge anyway. 

                                                                                                                                                                    Shoulda, Coulda, particularly after I 
    came back home and checked out my references. They looked a bit like the 
    Quality Craft or Ambroid "Box 'O Sticks" kits, but made of brass, a "Box 'O 
    Brass" (included drivers, frame, etc. I think cab and boilers were 
    pre-formed or alreday assembled.)

                                                                                                                                                                    And yes, I'm finally methodically 
    inventorying my collection of catalogs and paper (Red Ball done long ago) 
    and making a note what HO Seeker needs. Some neat old stuff that needs to be 
    seen, including Bathgate illustrated folders, etc. 

                                                                                                                                                                    Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                    --- 
    In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" 
    <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    > Jay W , Jim W 
                                                                                                                                                                    > I received 
    the set of plans for the Trackside Specialties O-1c and really appreciate 
    them. That little ad is neat also. Hope you can send them on to Larry 
    (HOseeker) for his site. Sure they will come in handy for someone.
                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    That ad has me a little baffled as it says they (TS) has custom kits for a 
    C&O 2-10-2 and a 2-10-4. The ad seems to say they are in stock. This is 
    the first I have heard mention of them.
                                                                                                                                                                    > To Jim W, do you have any 
    knowledge of these ? Anyone ?
                                                                                                                                                                    > Again thanks. If I find the B-1 rat 
    plans I send them to you.
                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9278
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sorry
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    It most certainly does not belong on this group (nor was it "good".).
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
However leaving the group because one person made an error is also not right.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
To each his own but 
                                                                                                                                                                    
1. Keep this groups content true to its title and
                                                                                                                                                                    
2. Let Don decide upon any repercussions to the errant poster.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9279
						From: bayerw@comcast.net
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Trackside/TLW  C & O steam
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    It is the Bathgate passenger car. Don't go out of your way though. Whenever you have time.
                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                    Walter



                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:27:14 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside/TLW  C & O steam

                                                                                                                                                                    




 



                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    


    
                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                     Walter,
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                             
Sorry but it must be to late and I was up very early. Is it the 
Bathgate passenger car's picture you would like to see or is it something 
else. ?
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  bayerw@... 
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:46 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 
  Trackside/TLW C & O steam
                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    Do send a 
  picture when you have a chance, Jim. Love seeing your 
  pix!
                                                                                                                                                                    Walter



                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: "jim 
  heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
  Monday, March 30, 2009 4:41:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: 
  [vintageHO] Re: Trackside/TLW  C & O steam

                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                       I have one Bathgate passenger car 
  and that is all I know about them.
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
    Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
    Monday, March 30, 2009 3:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: 
    [vintageHO] Re: Trackside/TLW C & O steam
                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H., 

                                                                                                                                                                    Glad you received them already. I did see two of the 
    Trackside HO Scale C&O ten-coupled steam locomotive kits a few years ago 
    at a small local club sponsored show that comes up each year and will ask 
    around about them. I do not know if the seller said they were by Trackside 
    or The Locomotive Workshop. Truthfully, the price was good, but I hestitated 
    a bit as hobby coin was scarce at the time and I was unfamiliar with them 
    and did not realize how signifigant they were. Had they been Erie, I would 
    have taken the plunge anyway. 

                                                                                                                                                                    Shoulda, Coulda, particularly after I 
    came back home and checked out my references. They looked a bit like the 
    Quality Craft or Ambroid "Box 'O Sticks" kits, but made of brass, a "Box 'O 
    Brass" (included drivers, frame, etc. I think cab and boilers were 
    pre-formed or alreday assembled.)

                                                                                                                                                                    And yes, I'm finally methodically 
    inventorying my collection of catalogs and paper (Red Ball done long ago) 
    and making a note what HO Seeker needs. Some neat old stuff that needs to be 
    seen, including Bathgate illustrated folders, etc. 

                                                                                                                                                                    Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                    --- 
    In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" 
    <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                    > Jay W , Jim W 
                                                                                                                                                                    > I received 
    the set of plans for the Trackside Specialties O-1c and really appreciate 
    them. That little ad is neat also. Hope you can send them on to Larry 
    (HOseeker) for his site. Sure they will come in handy for someone.
                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    That ad has me a little baffled as it says they (TS) has custom kits for a 
    C&O 2-10-2 and a 2-10-4. The ad seems to say they are in stock. This is 
    the first I have heard mention of them.
                                                                                                                                                                    > To Jim W, do you have any 
    knowledge of these ? Anyone ?
                                                                                                                                                                    > Again thanks. If I find the B-1 rat 
    plans I send them to you.
                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                      

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                    
	
	




	
	
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9280
						From: bayerw@comcast.net
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sorry
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    It tickled my funny bone, and I am sorry others didn't see the humor, but, no it was not appropriate to the site. However, accidents do happen, the perp apologized, and let's leave it at that. What is that about casting the first stone? 
                                                                                                                                                                    I move that the subject be dropped. Does anyone second the motion?
                                                                                                                                                                    Walter



                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:32:52 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sorry

                                                                                                                                                                    




 



                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    


    
                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                    It most certainly does not belong on this group (nor was it "good".).
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
However leaving the group because one person made an error is also not right.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
To each his own but 
                                                                                                                                                                    
1. Keep this groups content true to its title and
                                                                                                                                                                    
2. Let Don decide upon any repercussions to the errant poster.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                      

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                    
	
	




	
	
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9281
						From: Riverboy
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sorry
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    I second it , as I'm sure we have  ALL hit  the " OOPS " button at least once over time .
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    Tod

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Mon, 3/30/09, bayerw@... <bayerw@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    From: bayerw@... <bayerw@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Monday, March 30, 2009, 10:40 PM

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    It tickled my funny bone, and I am sorry others didn't see the humor, but, no it was not appropriate to the site. However, accidents do happen, the perp apologized, and let's leave it at that. What is that about casting the first stone? 
                                                                                                                                                                    I move that the subject be dropped. Does anyone second the motion?
                                                                                                                                                                    Walter



                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:32:52 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sorry

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    It most certainly does not belong on this group (nor was it "good".).

                                                                                                                                                                    However leaving the group because one person made an error is also not right.

                                                                                                                                                                    To each his own but 
                                                                                                                                                                    1. Keep this groups content true to its title and
                                                                                                                                                                    2. Let Don decide upon any repercussions to the errant poster.

                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9282
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sorry
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    Seconded.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bayerw@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> It tickled my funny bone, and I am sorry others didn't see the humor, but, no it was not appropriate to the site. However, accidents do happen, the perp apologized, and let's leave it at that. What is that about casting the first stone? 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> I move that the subject be dropped. Does anyone second the motion? 
                                                                                                                                                                    
> Walter 
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9283
						From: Richard White
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sorry
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    



 
What's the big deal? -Richard W.
                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    From: sprinthag@...
                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 02:32:52 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sorry

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
It most certainly does not belong on this group (nor was it "good".).

                                                                                                                                                                    However leaving the group because one person made an error is also not right.

                                                                                                                                                                    To each his own but 
                                                                                                                                                                    1. Keep this groups content true to its title and
                                                                                                                                                                    2. Let Don decide upon any repercussions to the errant poster.

                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen


                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    





                                                                                                                                                                    Windows Live™ SkyDrive: Get 25 GB of free online storage. Check it out. 

                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9284
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sorry
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    Sadly, a great deal of the inter-office email I see passed around at work is 'humor' of this sort.

                                                                                                                                                                    Perhaps it's a good thing that I don't have email at work ???

                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                    Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                    On Mar 30, 2009, at 9:09 PM, Ray Marinaccio wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    I'm not impressed
                                                                                                                                                                     Please discontinue my membership on this site if he is still a member.

                                                                                                                                                                    --- On Mon, 3/30/09, Don Grant <grantdono@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    From: Don Grant <grantdono@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Monday, March 30, 2009, 6:16 PM

                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry about the "yellow raincoat".
                                                                                                                                                                    Hit wrong button.
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9285
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 3/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sorry
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    I agree, accidents do happen.  Mr. Grant is still a member but his posts 
                                                                                                                                                                    
will be moderated to insure this doesn't happen again.  On topic posts will 
                                                                                                                                                                    
be allowed.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject closed.  Anyone continuing this thread will also be put back on 
                                                                                                                                                                    
moderation.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:43 PM
                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
> Seconded.
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bayerw@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> It tickled my funny bone, and I am sorry others didn't see the humor, 
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> but, no it was not appropriate to the site. However, accidents do happen, 
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the perp apologized, and let's leave it at that. What is that about 
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> casting the first stone?
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I move that the subject be dropped. Does anyone second the motion?
                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Walter 
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9286
						From: Railroad Modeler
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sorry
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                    Only if your definition of "good" includes the word 
"tasteless".
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    Ken Berry
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  bayerw@... 
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 8:16 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    But it was 
  GOOD!



                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                    From: "Don Grant" <grantdono@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageho@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
  Monday, March 30, 2009 9:16:28 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: 
  [vintageHO] Sorry

                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                    
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry about the "yellow raincoat".
                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                    Hit wrong button.
                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9287
						From: Railroad Modeler
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sorry
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                    Yowza...I just added my 0.5cents worth THEN read 
the rest of my inbox...(note to self ... NEVER read email at 
3:30am)
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    Guess I'm moderated now. :-(
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    And this probably counts as *MY* official "Oops" 
for the week.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    Apologies, 
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    Et al...
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    Ken Berry
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    Formerly of the free voice
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:51 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                    ...Subject closed. Anyone continuing 
  this thread will also be put back on 
                                                                                                                                                                    moderation.

                                                                                                                                                                    Don 
                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9288
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Coke Car (fuel) Kit or Scratchbuilt + Picard Hopper
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    To All:
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
This post kind of was lost last night, so I am repeating an updated version here!
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Today's five new photos in Plainsman's Picks photo album are of two more models found in the Oak Valley collection: a vintage model coke car (fuel) and a Picard open hopper. Even though it is hand lettered like many cars of those days and does not have the Oak Valley herald, this is probably the most outstanding model of the group.
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Model coke cars are seldom seen, and I am not familiar with any vintage kits for them. So the question is, "Was this built from a kit or perhaps plans from a 1940's magazine article?" (Decades after this was built, Merle Rice of Red Ball/Wabash Valley had proposed a Wabash RR coke car kit in the 1980's or 1990's, but do not think it was ever manufactured.)
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
The Picard Hopper is simply a nicely constructed example decaled for DT&I.  Also found in the small group was a Picard covered hopper lettered for General Electric, but no photo yet.  I have previously found an unassembled Picard covered hopper kit with instructons, which  bear the slogan, "Smething to write home about!"  Question: Where did they think the modelbuilder was assembling their kits, anyway?   LOL!
                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                    
Jay W. (Ps. I know ther slogan term was a popularly used expression back then, but in context with the kit, still funny!)
                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9289
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Bathgate Passenger Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                      Walter B,
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                            These are pictures 
of a Bathgate passenger car (coach I assume) that you asked me to send. 
Don't know much about them. A very good close friend from California, who knows 
I collect vintage passenger cars too ( I have over 400 ), sent this along 
with two other cars. One is Megow, one is Van or Van's Hobbies and this Bathgate 
car. I have no reason not to believe him as he knows a lot more then 
me.
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                         This car has wood floor, roof, ends 
and underneath detail. The sides are plastic, much like Varney celluloid 
passenger cars sides, but a lot flimsier. I sent pictures of the trucks as I 
have no idea who made them or if  they were made and sold by 
Bathgate.
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      Anyone out there know ? Hope you enjoy. This car needs some work. Needs handrails put 
on but must add some support under the sides where the steps are first. No box 
or paperwork.
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9290
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Bathgate Passenger and Freight Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H., Walter B. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      
My two small illustrated Bathgate folders from the WW2 period that are in the "for HO Seeker" folder indicate that Walter E. Bathgate was President of the Fabricated Products Corporation of East Orange, NJ and notes that they were involved in War Work so only 10% of their output went towards production of model equipment.  
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      
This is the description of the passenger coach (one model) under a small illusration:  "Here is one of the nicest passenger car kits yet put on the market with the new laminated embossed sides showing every window sill and rivet.  ...and complete with assembled six wheel trucks...road decals furnished...as well as the following six numbers 3030, 200, 41, 536, 1226."  Road name decals listed are Pennsylvania, Lackawanna, Union Paciffic and New York Central.
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      
Freight cars pictured or listed: 2 box cars, 5 reefers, a large wrecking crane (I have the top, booms and illustrated instructions) A work train crew car (looks like an 1860's flat roof passenger car) and an eight wheel Erie wood caboose.   I have both a built Erie caboose and a complete kit.  Also have a pair or two of Bathgate passenger six wheel trucks in crumbly paper envelopes.  The appear to be made of slush cast white metal with brass wheelsets.  
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      
They stated that additional flat, gons, and tanks cars would be forthcoming, as well as PRR combine and Pullman.  I seem to remember that ads or listings indicating they later produced some circus items.
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      
So that's a little more information.
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      
Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                      
> Walter B,
                                                                                                                                                                      
>       These are pictures of a Bathgate passenger car (coach I assume) that you asked me to send. Don't know much about them. A very good close friend from California, who knows I collect vintage passenger cars too ( I have over 400 ), sent this along with two other cars. One is Megow, one is Van or Van's Hobbies and this Bathgate car. I have no reason not to believe him as he knows a lot more then me.
                                                                                                                                                                      
>    This car has wood floor, roof, ends and underneath detail. The sides are plastic, much like Varney celluloid passenger cars sides, but a lot flimsier. I sent pictures of the trucks as I have no idea who made them or if  they were made and sold by Bathgate.
                                                                                                                                                                      
> Anyone out there know ? Hope you enjoy. This car needs some work. Needs handrails put on but must add some support under the sides where the steps are first. No box or paperwork.
                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9291
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Sorry
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                      Subject? What Subject. Doesn't even need be discussed. Mistakes happen, FLAT OUT!
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      From: bayerw@...
                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 02:40:20 +0000 (UTC)

                                                                                                                                                                      





                                                                                                                                                                      It tickled my funny bone, and I am sorry others didn't see the humor, but, no it was not appropriate to the site. However, accidents do happen, the perp apologized, and let's leave it at that. What is that about casting the first stone? 
                                                                                                                                                                      I move that the subject be dropped. Does anyone second the motion?
                                                                                                                                                                      Walter



                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:32:52 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sorry

                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      It most certainly does not belong on this group (nor was it "good".).

                                                                                                                                                                      However leaving the group because one person made an error is also not right.

                                                                                                                                                                      To each his own but 
                                                                                                                                                                      1. Keep this groups content true to its title and
                                                                                                                                                                      2. Let Don decide upon any repercussions to the errant poster.

                                                                                                                                                                      John Hagen

                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      






                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                      

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9292
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Sorry
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                      Please Don't put me on moderation I get to the computer after everyone gets their say so I am always late on subjects.
                                                                                                                                                                      
Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                       > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:51:43 -0500
                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                      
> I agree, accidents do happen.  Mr. Grant is still a member but his posts
                                                                                                                                                                      
> will be moderated to insure this doesn't happen again.  On topic posts will
                                                                                                                                                                      
> be allowed.
                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject closed.  Anyone continuing this thread will also be put back on
                                                                                                                                                                      
> moderation.
                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                      
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                      
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:43 PM
                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Seconded.
                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                      
> > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bayerw@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> It tickled my funny bone, and I am sorry others didn't see the 
                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> humor, but, no it was not appropriate to the site. However, 
                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> accidents do happen, the perp apologized, and let's leave it at 
                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> that. What is that about casting the first stone?
                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> I move that the subject be dropped. Does anyone second the motion?
                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Walter
                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      
 
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9293
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Bathgate Passenger Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim, nothing like checking your photos AFTER I sent the text from the brochure.  While it is clearly not the Bathgate car shown in the WW2 Bathgate folder, it could be a later one?  The car shown in the folder has 17 side windows, and a clerestory, not arched roof as well.  Your model's trucks look very much like the Megow 4 wheel PRR prototype ones I have, although their bolster center is shaped round, not squared. 
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9294
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                      the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                       > Model coke cars are seldom seen, and I am not familiar with any
                                                                                                                                                                      
> vintage kits for them.
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                          I know that I have seen model kits for coke cars but I don't recall 
                                                                                                                                                                      
the specific manufacturer. Seems that it may have been Silver Streak or 
                                                                                                                                                                      
Ye Old Huff 'N Puff.
                                                                                                                                                                      
    Yep. Definitely the latter. Found it in the '93 Walthers catalog - 
                                                                                                                                                                      
37' truss rod coke car; undecorated, Walthers stock #792-353.
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                      
"Is Marx's tomb a communist plot?"
                                                                                                                                                                      
    -Stephen Wright
                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9295
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Megow and Van Hobbies Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                        

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                        Walter B, All
                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                 
First thing is the couplers on the Bathgate car are not original. The car came 
without anything and I added the Likelike coupler holders and couplers. 

                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                 I 
told you about the three passenger cars I just received from a friend. I haven't 
had much time to recondition them or to verify what I was told they are. That 
said
                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                             1st picture is a Megow 
(hope I'm spelling right). This came battered but I was able to redo and finish 
it. Since it was a kit of wood and embossed cardboard I could repaint any way I 
wanted.
                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                               2nd picture is 
of a Van or Van's Hobbies passenger car kit. It came assembled , painted and 
lettered just as you see it. I'm told there were a number of different types of 
cars made. I do not know a time line for this make YET. I don't even know if the 
trucks came with it or another brand. Haven't had these plus the Bathgate car 
long enough to really research.
                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                              Would like to send 
more pictures of cars I have completely gone over as they were kits and I could 
paint  and decal as I please but maybe some people won't like to many 
pictures. If others don't want to see I will send  them off 
list.
                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                              Don D. Do you have 
any problem with me sending these to the site.They are not for my album, just 
for people to enjoy.
                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                        

								
                                                                                                                                                                        
							
                                                                                                                                                                        
						                                                                                                                                                                        		
					
                                                                                                                                                                        
				
                                                                                                                                                                        

				
                                                                                                                                                                        
					
                                                                                                                                                                        
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9296
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                        
					
                                                                                                                                                                        
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                        
				
                                                                                                                                                                        
				
                                                                                                                                                                        
					
                                                                                                                                                                        
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                        
								
                                                                                                                                                                        


                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Rick,  
                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                        
Yes, found the one you mention on Olde Huff N' Puff's website, a different type and legnth, but definitely a coke car!  Here is a link for those interested:
                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                        
http://www.yeoldehuffnpuff.com/images/HO/ho353.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                        
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                         --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                        
>
                                                                                                                                                                        
> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                        
> > Model coke cars are seldom seen, and I am not familiar with any
                                                                                                                                                                        
> > vintage kits for them.
                                                                                                                                                                        
> 
                                                                                                                                                                        
>     I know that I have seen model kits for coke cars but I don't recall 
                                                                                                                                                                        
> the specific manufacturer. Seems that it may have been Silver Streak or 
                                                                                                                                                                        
> Ye Old Huff 'N Puff.
                                                                                                                                                                        
>     Yep. Definitely the latter. Found it in the '93 Walthers catalog - 
                                                                                                                                                                        
> 37' truss rod coke car; undecorated, Walthers stock #792-353.
                                                                                                                                                                        
> 
                                                                                                                                                                        
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                        
> 
                                                                                                                                                                        
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                        
> 
                                                                                                                                                                        
> "Is Marx's tomb a communist plot?"
                                                                                                                                                                        
>     -Stephen Wright
                                                                                                                                                                        
> 
                                                                                                                                                                        

								
                                                                                                                                                                        
							
                                                                                                                                                                        
						                                                                                                                                                                        		
					
                                                                                                                                                                        
				
                                                                                                                                                                        

				
                                                                                                                                                                        
					
                                                                                                                                                                        
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9297
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                        
					
                                                                                                                                                                        
						Subject: John English items
					
                                                                                                                                                                        
				
                                                                                                                                                                        
				
                                                                                                                                                                        
					
                                                                                                                                                                        
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                        
								
                                                                                                                                                                        


                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                          

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                          Walter B,  All,
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                               I'll send these quick 
before I get told not to send anymore. The four items are John English metal 
items. All were originally kits but came to me in bad shape, one engine a basket 
case.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                              Picture 1 is a JE metal 
(not HObbyline plastic) combine. I completely redid, painted and decaled. This 
and the metal coach below stared a run of many passenger cars. After the metal 
came Hobbyline plastic (by John English). Right before he went out of business 
he came out with the first two streamlined plastic HObbyline passenger cars, a 
coach and observation. Penn Line picked up the items and expanded the 
streamlined and heavyweight lines with more different types of cars. Varney, 
under Sol Kramer, bought the rights and cut back both the streamlined and 
heavyweights to 4 cars each of different types. Lifelike produced the plastic 
heavyweight under their name and others still used the same molds under 
different names.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                             Picture 2  is the John English 
metal coach completely redone
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                             Picture 3  is a John English 
Mikado that was close to a basketcase that I did over. To people who follow the 
real thing don't get mad at the oil tender lettered for the Pennsy. I don't 
think they had oil tenders.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                              Picture 4  is a John 
English metal Pacific which pulls the passenger cars above. Again redone. 
 No the numbers don't match anything.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          I do have a redone 0-4-0 metal JE Yardbird 
too.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          Chuck H.    The pest is asking to 
enter these 4 pictures into my album if / when you can.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                          

								
                                                                                                                                                                          
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
						                                                                                                                                                                          		
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          

				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9298
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Subject: must clarify
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
								
                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                          Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                               Must clarify and change a 
word. I said John English metal kits and meant to say undecorated (not factory 
painted) so I could take liberties in repainting as I please.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Thank You           Jim 
H
                                                                                                                                                                          

								
                                                                                                                                                                          
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
						                                                                                                                                                                          		
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          

				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9299
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Subject: Re: Megow and Van Hobbies Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
								
                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          Jim:
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
Post all the pictures you want.  The best thing to do is put them in the 
                                                                                                                                                                          
photos section in albums.  We have plenty of room there.  Not everyone can 
                                                                                                                                                                          
see pictures that are ONLY sent as email attachments, and there are still 
                                                                                                                                                                          
people with dial up connections that are slow when emails have a lot of 
                                                                                                                                                                          
attachments.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
I know you had trouble creating an album and uploading pics before, is that 
                                                                                                                                                                          
resolved?
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                           ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                          
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                          
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                          
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                          
Subject: [vintageHO] Megow and Van Hobbies Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
Walter B, All
                                                                                                                                                                          
         First thing is the couplers on the Bathgate car are not original. 
                                                                                                                                                                          
The car came without anything and I added the Likelike coupler holders and 
                                                                                                                                                                          
couplers.
                                                                                                                                                                          
         I told you about the three passenger cars I just received from a 
                                                                                                                                                                          
friend. I haven't had much time to recondition them or to verify what I was 
                                                                                                                                                                          
told they are. That said
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
     1st picture is a Megow (hope I'm spelling right). This came battered 
                                                                                                                                                                          
but I was able to redo and finish it. Since it was a kit of wood and 
                                                                                                                                                                          
embossed cardboard I could repaint any way I wanted.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
       2nd picture is of a Van or Van's Hobbies passenger car kit. It came 
                                                                                                                                                                          
assembled , painted and lettered just as you see it. I'm told there were a 
                                                                                                                                                                          
number of different types of cars made. I do not know a time line for this 
                                                                                                                                                                          
make YET. I don't even know if the trucks came with it or another brand. 
                                                                                                                                                                          
Haven't had these plus the Bathgate car long enough to really research.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
      Would like to send more pictures of cars I have completely gone over 
                                                                                                                                                                          
as they were kits and I could paint  and decal as I please but maybe some 
                                                                                                                                                                          
people won't like to many pictures. If others don't want to see I will send 
                                                                                                                                                                          
them off list.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
      Don D. Do you have any problem with me sending these to the site.They 
                                                                                                                                                                          
are not for my album, just for people to enjoy.
                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                          
                                  Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                          

								
                                                                                                                                                                          
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
						                                                                                                                                                                          		
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          

				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9300
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Subject: Re: must clarify & John English Coaches
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
								
                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
Enjoyed seeing your English diecast metal coaches, have two in undec, waiting for paint until I find a matching combine one day.  I am much less well versed on passenger cars, but have a good working knowledge of Red Ball (later Binkley); American Beauty and some others. Like many of my age, my first HO passenger cars as a young teen in the early 1960's were the Penn Line versions of the English/Hobbyline/ Varney/Life-Like family cars, but until now, was unclear how many, if any, of the streamlined cars were completed by Hobbyline before sale of the dies to Penn Line. Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
It took me two years, until last summer, when I finally bought two of Howell Day's Model Railroad Shop larged sized catalogs from 1939 and 1940 to identify my Knapp coach, as one of them had a full page on Knapp in the back, with tiny, blurry photo. (And then joining here last week, saw one in your album as well as another's!) I knew it was something special when I picked it up at a train show as it never left my hand again at that table!  BTW, except for the number of roof vents, the Knapp coach is an almost dead ringer for Jersey Central suburban coaches and possibly Reading. 
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
Besides Knapp and John English, did any others produce any complete cast metal "modern" passenger cars, as opposed to "old time" cars like the Laconia/Ulrich Sierra models and the Selley "Cinder Queen"?
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
 
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                           --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                          
>
                                                                                                                                                                          
> Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                          
>      Must clarify and change a word. I said John English metal kits and meant to say undecorated (not factory painted) so I could take liberties in repainting as I please.
                                                                                                                                                                          
>                                            Thank You           Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                          
> 
                                                                                                                                                                          

								
                                                                                                                                                                          
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
						                                                                                                                                                                          		
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          

				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9301
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Subject: Re: Bathgate Passenger Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
								
                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          Jim:
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
Are you sure that picture is a Bathgate?
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
By comparing it with pictures in a 1941 Megow ad, I've determined this one 
                                                                                                                                                                          
IS a Megow
                                                                                                                                                                          
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1431972886/pic/1576000959/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
                                                                                                                                                                          
or
                                                                                                                                                                          
http://tinyurl.com/d6tzws
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
My scanner is down, otherwise I'd also post the Megow ad.
                                                                                                                                                                          
The window pattern matches, and the gold trim matches what mine was exactly 
                                                                                                                                                                          
before I painted it (some of the cardboard side was torn off, so it needed 
                                                                                                                                                                          
restoring)
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
I wonder if your source got them turned around and the open platform car in 
                                                                                                                                                                          
your other post is the Bathgate.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
Don
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                          
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                          
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                          
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                          
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                          
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                          
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                           ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                          
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                          
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                          
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 2:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                          
Subject: [vintageHO] Bathgate Passenger Car
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
Walter B,
                                                                                                                                                                          
      These are pictures of a Bathgate passenger car (coach I assume) that 
                                                                                                                                                                          
you asked me to send. Don't know much about them. A very good close friend 
                                                                                                                                                                          
from California, who knows I collect vintage passenger cars too ( I have 
                                                                                                                                                                          
over 400 ), sent this along with two other cars. One is Megow, one is Van or 
                                                                                                                                                                          
Van's Hobbies and this Bathgate car. I have no reason not to believe him as 
                                                                                                                                                                          
he knows a lot more then me.
                                                                                                                                                                          
   This car has wood floor, roof, ends and underneath detail. The sides are 
                                                                                                                                                                          
plastic, much like Varney celluloid passenger cars sides, but a lot 
                                                                                                                                                                          
flimsier. I sent pictures of the trucks as I have no idea who made them or 
                                                                                                                                                                          
if  they were made and sold by Bathgate.
                                                                                                                                                                          
Anyone out there know ? Hope you enjoy. This car needs some work. Needs 
                                                                                                                                                                          
handrails put on but must add some support under the sides where the steps 
                                                                                                                                                                          
are first. No box or paperwork.
                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                          
               Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                          

								
                                                                                                                                                                          
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
						                                                                                                                                                                          		
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          

				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9302
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) Kit or Scratchbuilt + Picard Hopper
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
								
                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                          
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                          
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                          
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:39 AM
                                                                                                                                                                          
Subject: [vintageHO] Coke Car (fuel) Kit or Scratchbuilt + Picard Hopper
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
> To All:
                                                                                                                                                                          
>
                                                                                                                                                                          
> This post kind of was lost last night, so I am repeating an updated 
                                                                                                                                                                          
> version here!
                                                                                                                                                                          
>
                                                                                                                                                                          
> Today's five new photos in Plainsman's Picks photo album are of two more 
                                                                                                                                                                          
> models found in the Oak Valley collection: a vintage model coke car (fuel) 
                                                                                                                                                                          
> and a Picard open hopper. Even though it is hand lettered like many cars 
                                                                                                                                                                          
> of those days and does not have the Oak Valley herald, this is probably 
                                                                                                                                                                          
> the most outstanding model of the group.
                                                                                                                                                                          
>
                                                                                                                                                                          
> Model coke cars are seldom seen, and I am not familiar with any vintage 
                                                                                                                                                                          
> kits for them. So the question is, "Was this built from a kit or perhaps 
                                                                                                                                                                          
> plans from a 1940's magazine article?" (Decades after this was built, 
                                                                                                                                                                          
> Merle Rice of Red Ball/Wabash Valley had proposed a Wabash RR coke car kit 
                                                                                                                                                                          
> in the 1980's or 1990's, but do not think it was ever manufactured.)
                                                                                                                                                                          
>
                                                                                                                                                                          
> The Picard Hopper is simply a nicely constructed example decaled for DT&I. 
                                                                                                                                                                          
> Also found in the small group was a Picard covered hopper lettered for 
                                                                                                                                                                          
> General Electric, but no photo yet.  I have previously found an 
                                                                                                                                                                          
> unassembled Picard covered hopper kit with instructons, which  bear the 
                                                                                                                                                                          
> slogan, "Smething to write home about!"  Question: Where did they think 
                                                                                                                                                                          
> the modelbuilder was assembling their kits, anyway?   LOL!
                                                                                                                                                                          
>
                                                                                                                                                                          
> Jay W. (Ps. I know ther slogan term was a popularly used expression back 
                                                                                                                                                                          
> then, but in context with the kit, still funny!)
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
If you go to the group photo page and go to about the second last page of 
                                                                                                                                                                          
albums you'll find my Picard album (I put a "z" in front of the name of all 
                                                                                                                                                                          
my albums so the other members all could come first)  You may find it 
                                                                                                                                                                          
interesting (then again, you may not <G>).
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
Don
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                          
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                          
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                          
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                          
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                          
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                          
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                          

								
                                                                                                                                                                          
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
						                                                                                                                                                                          		
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          

				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9303
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Subject: Re: Bathgate Passenger Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
								
                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          I was wondering the same thing- I have a round roof Pennsy coach like what is in Don't picture. I also have seen a few more (That I always get outbid on) on eBay and they are labeled Megow. Come to think of it, one of the ones I saw, was still with box and instructions and never assembled.

                                                                                                                                                                          Mine is currently being mechanically rebuilt with new trucks and the addition of underframe detail.

                                                                                                                                                                          I do also have the '1860s' style work crew car, I thought it was a bathgate but wasn't sure till recently.

                                                                                                                                                                          -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                           --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                          From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Bathgate Passenger Car
                                                                                                                                                                          To:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                          Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 6:14 PM

                                                                                                                                                                          






    
                                                                                                                                                                          
            
                                                                                                                                                                          Jim:
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
Are you sure that picture is a Bathgate?
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
By comparing it with pictures in a 1941 Megow ad, I've determined this one 
                                                                                                                                                                          
IS a Megow
                                                                                                                                                                          
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ photos/album/ 1431972886/ pic/1576000959/ view?picmode= &mode=tn& order=ordinal& start=1&count= 20&dir=asc
                                                                                                                                                                          
or
                                                                                                                                                                          
http://tinyurl. com/d6tzws
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
My scanner is down, otherwise I'd also post the Megow ad.
                                                                                                                                                                          
The window pattern matches, and the gold trim matches what mine was exactly 
                                                                                                                                                                          
before I painted it (some of the cardboard side was torn off, so it needed 
                                                                                                                                                                          
restoring)
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
I wonder if your source got them turned around and the open platform car in 
                                                                                                                                                                          
your other post is the Bathgate.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
Don
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                          
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                          
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                          
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                          
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                          
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                          
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                          
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                          
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                          
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 2:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                          
Subject: [vintageHO] Bathgate Passenger Car
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
Walter B,
                                                                                                                                                                          
      These are pictures of a Bathgate passenger car (coach I assume) that 
                                                                                                                                                                          
you asked me to send. Don't know much about them. A very good close friend 
                                                                                                                                                                          
from California, who knows I collect vintage passenger cars too ( I have 
                                                                                                                                                                          
over 400 ), sent this along with two other cars. One is Megow, one is Van or 
                                                                                                                                                                          
Van's Hobbies and this Bathgate car. I have no reason not to believe him as 
                                                                                                                                                                          
he knows a lot more then me.
                                                                                                                                                                          
   This car has wood floor, roof, ends and underneath detail. The sides are 
                                                                                                                                                                          
plastic, much like Varney celluloid passenger cars sides, but a lot 
                                                                                                                                                                          
flimsier. I sent pictures of the trucks as I have no idea who made them or 
                                                                                                                                                                          
if  they were made and sold by Bathgate.
                                                                                                                                                                          
Anyone out there know ? Hope you enjoy. This car needs some work. Needs 
                                                                                                                                                                          
handrails put on but must add some support under the sides where the steps 
                                                                                                                                                                          
are first. No box or paperwork.
                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                          
               Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                            


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                          

								
                                                                                                                                                                          
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
						                                                                                                                                                                          		
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          

				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9304
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Subject: Re: Megow and Van Hobbies Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
								
                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                             They could have been switched around 
but it would be my mistake and I didn't listen to the explanation when I got 
them. What you say is very possible. To err is human
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                          
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:01 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Megow and Van 
  Hobbies Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                          
  

                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                          Jim:

                                                                                                                                                                          Post all the pictures you want. The best thing to do is put 
  them in the 
                                                                                                                                                                          photos section in albums. We have plenty of room there. Not 
  everyone can 
                                                                                                                                                                          see pictures that are ONLY sent as email attachments, and 
  there are still 
                                                                                                                                                                          people with dial up connections that are slow when emails 
  have a lot of 
                                                                                                                                                                          attachments.

                                                                                                                                                                          I know you had trouble creating an album 
  and uploading pics before, is that 
                                                                                                                                                                          resolved?

                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message 
  ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                          From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                          To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: 
  Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Megow and Van Hobbies 
  Passenger Cars

                                                                                                                                                                          Walter B, All
                                                                                                                                                                          First thing is the couplers on the 
  Bathgate car are not original. 
                                                                                                                                                                          The car came without anything and I added 
  the Likelike coupler holders and 
                                                                                                                                                                          couplers.
                                                                                                                                                                          I told you about the three 
  passenger cars I just received from a 
                                                                                                                                                                          friend. I haven't had much time to 
  recondition them or to verify what I was 
                                                                                                                                                                          told they are. That 
  said

                                                                                                                                                                          1st picture is a Megow (hope I'm spelling right). This came 
  battered 
                                                                                                                                                                          but I was able to redo and finish it. Since it was a kit of wood 
  and 
                                                                                                                                                                          embossed cardboard I could repaint any way I wanted.

                                                                                                                                                                          2nd 
  picture is of a Van or Van's Hobbies passenger car kit. It came 
                                                                                                                                                                          assembled 
  , painted and lettered just as you see it. I'm told there were a 
                                                                                                                                                                          number of 
  different types of cars made. I do not know a time line for this 
                                                                                                                                                                          make YET. 
  I don't even know if the trucks came with it or another brand. 
                                                                                                                                                                          Haven't had 
  these plus the Bathgate car long enough to really research.

                                                                                                                                                                          Would like 
  to send more pictures of cars I have completely gone over 
                                                                                                                                                                          as they were 
  kits and I could paint and decal as I please but maybe some 
                                                                                                                                                                          people won't 
  like to many pictures. If others don't want to see I will send 
                                                                                                                                                                          them off 
  list.

                                                                                                                                                                          Don D. Do you have any problem with me sending these to the 
  site.They 
                                                                                                                                                                          are not for my album, just for people to enjoy.

                                                                                                                                                                          Jim 
  H

                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                          

								
                                                                                                                                                                          
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
						                                                                                                                                                                          		
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          

				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9305
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Subject: Re: Megow and Van Hobbies Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
								
                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                          My computer problems have been resolved .To bad the 
person behind the computer is a dinosaur. As you can see if it wasn't for Chuck 
H I wouldn't even have an album. I just don't know how to create all 
the needed albums, cut and paste and get the pictures from the camera to 
them. Be glad to CC all pictures to anyone who has the knowledge , time and 
patience to create these albums. Sorry.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                          
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:01 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Megow and Van 
  Hobbies Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                          
  

                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                          Jim:

                                                                                                                                                                          Post all the pictures you want. The best thing to do is put 
  them in the 
                                                                                                                                                                          photos section in albums. We have plenty of room there. Not 
  everyone can 
                                                                                                                                                                          see pictures that are ONLY sent as email attachments, and 
  there are still 
                                                                                                                                                                          people with dial up connections that are slow when emails 
  have a lot of 
                                                                                                                                                                          attachments.

                                                                                                                                                                          I know you had trouble creating an album 
  and uploading pics before, is that 
                                                                                                                                                                          resolved?

                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message 
  ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                          From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                          To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: 
  Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Megow and Van Hobbies 
  Passenger Cars

                                                                                                                                                                          Walter B, All
                                                                                                                                                                          First thing is the couplers on the 
  Bathgate car are not original. 
                                                                                                                                                                          The car came without anything and I added 
  the Likelike coupler holders and 
                                                                                                                                                                          couplers.
                                                                                                                                                                          I told you about the three 
  passenger cars I just received from a 
                                                                                                                                                                          friend. I haven't had much time to 
  recondition them or to verify what I was 
                                                                                                                                                                          told they are. That 
  said

                                                                                                                                                                          1st picture is a Megow (hope I'm spelling right). This came 
  battered 
                                                                                                                                                                          but I was able to redo and finish it. Since it was a kit of wood 
  and 
                                                                                                                                                                          embossed cardboard I could repaint any way I wanted.

                                                                                                                                                                          2nd 
  picture is of a Van or Van's Hobbies passenger car kit. It came 
                                                                                                                                                                          assembled 
  , painted and lettered just as you see it. I'm told there were a 
                                                                                                                                                                          number of 
  different types of cars made. I do not know a time line for this 
                                                                                                                                                                          make YET. 
  I don't even know if the trucks came with it or another brand. 
                                                                                                                                                                          Haven't had 
  these plus the Bathgate car long enough to really research.

                                                                                                                                                                          Would like 
  to send more pictures of cars I have completely gone over 
                                                                                                                                                                          as they were 
  kits and I could paint and decal as I please but maybe some 
                                                                                                                                                                          people won't 
  like to many pictures. If others don't want to see I will send 
                                                                                                                                                                          them off 
  list.

                                                                                                                                                                          Don D. Do you have any problem with me sending these to the 
  site.They 
                                                                                                                                                                          are not for my album, just for people to enjoy.

                                                                                                                                                                          Jim 
  H

                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                          

								
                                                                                                                                                                          
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
						                                                                                                                                                                          		
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          

				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9306
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Subject: Re: John English items
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
								
                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          Loaded.  They look nice.  
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                          
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:12
PM
                                                                                                                                                                          
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                          
Subject: [vintageHO] John English
items
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          Walter B,  All,
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                               I'll send these quick before I get
told not to send anymore. The four items are John English metal items. All were
originally kits but came to me in bad shape, one engine a basket case.
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                              Picture 1 is a JE metal (not
HObbyline plastic) combine. I completely redid, painted and decaled. This and
the metal coach below stared a run of many passenger cars. After the metal came
Hobbyline plastic (by John English). Right before he went out of business he
came out with the first two streamlined plastic HObbyline passenger cars, a
coach and observation. Penn Line picked up the items and expanded the
streamlined and heavyweight lines with more different types of cars. Varney,
under Sol Kramer, bought the rights and cut back both the streamlined and
heavyweights to 4 cars each of different types. Lifelike produced the plastic
heavyweight under their name and others still used the same molds under
different names.
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                             Picture 2  is the John English metal coach
completely redone
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                             Picture 3  is a John English Mikado that
was close to a basketcase that I did over. To people who follow the real thing
don't get mad at the oil tender lettered for the Pennsy. I don't think they had
oil tenders.
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                              Picture 4  is a John English metal
Pacific which pulls the passenger cars above. Again redone.  No the
numbers don't match anything.
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          I do have a redone 0-4-0 metal JE Yardbird too.
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          Chuck H.    The pest is asking to enter these
4 pictures into my album if / when you can.
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          


	

                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          

								
                                                                                                                                                                          
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
						                                                                                                                                                                          		
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          

				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9307
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Subject: Re: Bathgate Passenger Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
								
                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                          Hi Don, All,
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                   It 
looks like I made a switch, not intended, between Bathgate and Megow passenger 
cars and I apologize for any confusion. It is because of how sharp members 
in this group are that a mistake is caught early and corrected 
quickly.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                               As I mentioned I received 
3 passenger cars from a good train friend as part of a trade. Each one was 
bagged separately and labeled, Megow, Bathgate and Van's Hobbies. When they 
arrived ,which hasn't been a real long time , I took them out to look at. I 
guess I put them (Bathgate and Megow) back in the wrong bags. I haven't had time 
to research them as I had to do other things. I did however decide to start 
rebuilding one which I finished and I thought Megow but looks now looks like it 
is the Bathgate. Jay W's description he sent would perfectly match it. I am 
in the process of redoing what I thought Bathgate (but now from others 
descriptions must be Megow).
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                 Thanks to 
all.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                          
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:14 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Bathgate 
  Passenger Car
                                                                                                                                                                          
  

                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                          Jim:

                                                                                                                                                                          Are you sure that picture is a Bathgate?

                                                                                                                                                                          By comparing it 
  with pictures in a 1941 Megow ad, I've determined this one 
                                                                                                                                                                          IS a 
  Megow
                                                                                                                                                                          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ photos/album/ 1431972886/ pic/1576000959/ view?picmode= &mode=tn& order=ordinal& start=1&count= 20&dir=asc
                                                                                                                                                                          or
                                                                                                                                                                          http://tinyurl. com/d6tzws

                                                                                                                                                                          My 
  scanner is down, otherwise I'd also post the Megow ad.
                                                                                                                                                                          The window pattern 
  matches, and the gold trim matches what mine was exactly 
                                                                                                                                                                          before I painted 
  it (some of the cardboard side was torn off, so it needed 
  
                                                                                                                                                                          restoring)

                                                                                                                                                                          I wonder if your source got them turned around and the 
  open platform car in 
                                                                                                                                                                          your other post is the 
  Bathgate.

                                                                                                                                                                          Don

                                                                                                                                                                          Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                          don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                          Owner
                                                                                                                                                                          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                          ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                          From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                          To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: 
  Tuesday, March 31, 2009 2:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Bathgate Passenger 
  Car

                                                                                                                                                                          Walter B,
                                                                                                                                                                          These are pictures of a Bathgate passenger car (coach 
  I assume) that 
                                                                                                                                                                          you asked me to send. Don't know much about them. A very 
  good close friend 
                                                                                                                                                                          from California, who knows I collect vintage passenger 
  cars too ( I have 
                                                                                                                                                                          over 400 ), sent this along with two other cars. One is 
  Megow, one is Van or 
                                                                                                                                                                          Van's Hobbies and this Bathgate car. I have no reason 
  not to believe him as 
                                                                                                                                                                          he knows a lot more then me.
                                                                                                                                                                          This car has wood 
  floor, roof, ends and underneath detail. The sides are 
                                                                                                                                                                          plastic, much like 
  Varney celluloid passenger cars sides, but a lot 
                                                                                                                                                                          flimsier. I sent pictures 
  of the trucks as I have no idea who made them or 
                                                                                                                                                                          if they were made and 
  sold by Bathgate.
                                                                                                                                                                          Anyone out there know ? Hope you enjoy. This car needs 
  some work. Needs 
                                                                                                                                                                          handrails put on but must add some support under the 
  sides where the steps 
                                                                                                                                                                          are first. No box or paperwork.

                                                                                                                                                                          Jim H 
  

                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                          

								
                                                                                                                                                                          
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
						                                                                                                                                                                          		
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          

				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9308
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
								
                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          I have a  early 1950's construction article for a few types of all  
                                                                                                                                                                          
wood cars including the coke car I've attached to this post.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
Sorry about the scan quality. Its one of the first articles I photo- 
                                                                                                                                                                          
copied back in the late 60's at the library with those  old copiers.  
                                                                                                                                                                          
It's originally printed on that pulpy Korean War era brown-yellow  
                                                                                                                                                                          
magazine paper.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
If anyone would like the article, I could post it. It's a very nice  
                                                                                                                                                                          
and rather easy build of about six  types of cars of the TOC period.  
                                                                                                                                                                          
The author even hand lettered the cars by brush.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
The text reads a lot better than the images came out.
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                          
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                          
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                           On Mar 31, 2009, at 5:25 PM, Rick Jones wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                          
> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                          
>> Model coke cars are seldom seen, and I am not familiar with any
                                                                                                                                                                          
>> vintage kits for them.
                                                                                                                                                                          
>
                                                                                                                                                                          
>    I know that I have seen model kits for coke cars but I don't recall
                                                                                                                                                                          
> the specific manufacturer. Seems that it may have been Silver Streak  
                                                                                                                                                                          
> or
                                                                                                                                                                          
> Ye Old Huff 'N Puff.
                                                                                                                                                                          
>    Yep. Definitely the latter. Found it in the '93 Walthers catalog -
                                                                                                                                                                          
> 37' truss rod coke car; undecorated, Walthers stock #792-353. 
                                                                                                                                                                          

								
                                                                                                                                                                          
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
						                                                                                                                                                                          		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
						                                                                                                                                                                          		
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          

				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9309
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Subject: Re: must clarify & John English Coaches
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
								
                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                          
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:07 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: must clarify 
  & John English Coaches
                                                                                                                                                                          
  

                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                          Jim H.,

                                                                                                                                                                          Enjoyed seeing your English diecast metal coaches, have two 
  in undec, waiting for paint until I find a matching combine one day. I am much 
  less well versed on passenger cars, but have a good working knowledge of Red 
  Ball (later Binkley); American Beauty and some others. Like many of my age, my 
  first HO passenger cars as a young teen in the early 1960's were the Penn Line 
  versions of the English/Hobbyline/ Varney/Life- Like family cars, but 
  until now, was unclear how many, if any, of the streamlined cars were 
  completed by Hobbyline before sale of the dies to Penn Line. Thanks!

                                                                                                                                                                          It 
  took me two years, until last summer, when I finally bought two of Howell 
  Day's Model Railroad Shop larged sized catalogs from 1939 and 1940 to identify 
  my Knapp coach, as one of them had a full page on Knapp in the back, with 
  tiny, blurry photo. (And then joining here last week, saw one in your album as 
  well as another's!) I knew it was something special when I picked it up at a 
  train show as it never left my hand again at that table! BTW, except for the 
  number of roof vents, the Knapp coach is an almost dead ringer for Jersey 
  Central suburban coaches and possibly Reading. 

                                                                                                                                                                          Besides Knapp and John 
  English, did any others produce any complete cast metal "modern" passenger 
  cars, as opposed to "old time" cars like the Laconia/Ulrich Sierra models and 
  the Selley "Cinder Queen"?

                                                                                                                                                                          Jay W. 

                                                                                                                                                                          --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                          >
                                                                                                                                                                          > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                          > 
  Must clarify and change a word. I said John English metal kits and meant to 
  say undecorated (not factory painted) so I could take liberties in repainting 
  as I please.
                                                                                                                                                                          > Thank You Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                          >

                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                          

								
                                                                                                                                                                          
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
						                                                                                                                                                                          		
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          

				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9310
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                          
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                          
								
                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                            My God !!!
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
It's a Bill Rau car !!!
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
I wonder  if they have the wood hopper cars as well ???
                                                                                                                                                                            
see below........
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                            
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                            
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                             On Mar 31, 2009, at 5:08 PM, the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
> Hi Rick,
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Yes, found the one you mention on Olde Huff N' Puff's website, a  
                                                                                                                                                                            
> different type and legnth, but definitely a coke car!  Here is a  
                                                                                                                                                                            
> link for those interested:
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
> http://www.yeoldehuffnpuff.com/images/HO/ho353.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            
>>
                                                                                                                                                                            
>> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            
>>> Model coke cars are seldom seen, and I am not familiar with any
                                                                                                                                                                            
>>> vintage kits for them.
                                                                                                                                                                            
>>
                                                                                                                                                                            
>>    I know that I have seen model kits for coke cars but I don't  
                                                                                                                                                                            
>> recall
                                                                                                                                                                            
>> the specific manufacturer. Seems that it may have been Silver  
                                                                                                                                                                            
>> Streak or
                                                                                                                                                                            
>> Ye Old Huff 'N Puff.
                                                                                                                                                                            
>>    Yep. Definitely the latter. Found it in the '93 Walthers catalog -
                                                                                                                                                                            
>> 37' truss rod coke car; undecorated, Walthers stock #792-353. 
                                                                                                                                                                            

								
                                                                                                                                                                            
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
						                                                                                                                                                                            		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
						                                                                                                                                                                            		
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            

				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9311
						From: Karl Peters
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
								
                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                            Is the article called: "Building Old-Time Wood Freight Cars" ? If so, it was re-printed in BUILDING YOUR OWN MODEL CARS AND LOCOS. [Kalmbach Publishing, 1954].
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            Been thinking of building some of the ore hoppers and flat cars, when I get the time.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                            

								
                                                                                                                                                                            
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
						                                                                                                                                                                            		
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            

				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9312
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Subject: Re: must clarify & John English Coaches
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
								
                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                            

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                            Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                     
 I am going to try to answer a few of the questions you pose but I have to 
be careful as I don't want any MISTAKES.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                   There were two 
types of HObbyline plastic streamline cars made. A coach and observation. 
The only sets I've seen, I have or are cataloged have 3 coaches and an 
observation in them.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                   Road names 
included Pennsylvania and California Zephyr (?)   The first set 
he put out had the Pennsylvania roadname but the cars each the different 
names of 4 towns that John English had run his business in. Now remember we are 
only talking the STREAMLINED plastic HObbyline cars.  I'm sitting at the 
computer and would have to check those town names (to be sure) if you want 
to know.. Also remember that HObbyline passenger cars had 
trucks with plastic sideframes (unlike Penn Line metal).
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                I didn't know what the 
Knapp cast metal coaches were modeled after but they were nicely done ( as were 
John English metal passenger cars). Off hand they (Knapp and John 
English) are the only CAST "modern" metal passenger cars I can remember. 
There were plenty of extruded metal passenger cars but they don't matter to 
answer your question. Knapp had planned to come out with a combine to match the 
coach (plus a number of metal freight cars) but after they had trouble with 
their 4-8-2 Mountain engine they got out of the HO business. The engine went to 
Bill Bowser of Redlands CA  and he corrected the problem and sold the 
revamped Mountain. The Knapp freight cars were never made and the coach never 
produced again.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                            
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:07 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: must clarify 
  & John English Coaches
                                                                                                                                                                            
  

                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H.,

                                                                                                                                                                            Enjoyed seeing your English diecast metal coaches, have two 
  in undec, waiting for paint until I find a matching combine one day. I am much 
  less well versed on passenger cars, but have a good working knowledge of Red 
  Ball (later Binkley); American Beauty and some others. Like many of my age, my 
  first HO passenger cars as a young teen in the early 1960's were the Penn Line 
  versions of the English/Hobbyline/ Varney/Life- Like family cars, but 
  until now, was unclear how many, if any, of the streamlined cars were 
  completed by Hobbyline before sale of the dies to Penn Line. Thanks!

                                                                                                                                                                            It 
  took me two years, until last summer, when I finally bought two of Howell 
  Day's Model Railroad Shop larged sized catalogs from 1939 and 1940 to identify 
  my Knapp coach, as one of them had a full page on Knapp in the back, with 
  tiny, blurry photo. (And then joining here last week, saw one in your album as 
  well as another's!) I knew it was something special when I picked it up at a 
  train show as it never left my hand again at that table! BTW, except for the 
  number of roof vents, the Knapp coach is an almost dead ringer for Jersey 
  Central suburban coaches and possibly Reading. 

                                                                                                                                                                            Besides Knapp and John 
  English, did any others produce any complete cast metal "modern" passenger 
  cars, as opposed to "old time" cars like the Laconia/Ulrich Sierra models and 
  the Selley "Cinder Queen"?

                                                                                                                                                                            Jay W. 

                                                                                                                                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  Must clarify and change a word. I said John English metal kits and meant to 
  say undecorated (not factory painted) so I could take liberties in repainting 
  as I please.
                                                                                                                                                                            > Thank You Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                            >

                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                            

								
                                                                                                                                                                            
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
						                                                                                                                                                                            		
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            

				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9313
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Subject: Re: Picard Kit Cars, "Something to write home about..."
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
								
                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                            Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
I did find your Picard album interesting.  Your recently assembled gray car is the same covered hopper that I still have as a kit; I believe it is based on a profile of a PPR prototype, even if all the side framing is a bit different than the prototype.  A while back, I was completely mystified as to who Picard Novelty Co. was (OO? O?) and where they fit into HO.  
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
Besides their open and covered hopper complete kits, their low cost kits box car and reefer core kits allowed modelers on a budget to purchase a higher priced line's sides alone, like Red Ball, or lines like Champions that I understand sold only sides, then add them to the Picard body shell.  Recently, I acquired a couple of small lots which had about 4 or 5 Picard 36' and 40' boxcar core kits in it with remains of their paper tape wrapper bands, (all mixed up in a ziplock bag with Varney parts!) Going to have fun with those and some of my extra printed sides!
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                             >If you go to the group photo page and go to about the second last >page of albums you'll find my Picard album (I put a "z" in front of >the name of all my albums so the other members all could come >first)  You may find it interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                            
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                            
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                            
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                            
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                            
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > The Picard Hopper is simply a nicely constructed example decaled for DT&I. 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Also found in the small group was a Picard covered hopper lettered for 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > General Electric, but no photo yet.  I have previously found an 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > unassembled Picard covered hopper kit with instructons, which  bear the 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > slogan, "Something to write home about!"  > > Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            

								
                                                                                                                                                                            
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
						                                                                                                                                                                            		
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            

				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9314
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
								
                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                            Yes.........

                                                                                                                                                                            That's the article!

                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                            Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                            Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                            Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                            On Mar 31, 2009, at 8:05 PM, Karl Peters wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                            Is the article called: "Building Old-Time Wood Freight Cars" ? If so, it was re-printed in BUILDING YOUR OWN MODEL CARS AND LOCOS. [Kalmbach Publishing, 1954].
                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                            Been thinking of building some of the ore hoppers and flat cars, when I get the time.
                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                            Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                            

								
                                                                                                                                                                            
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
						                                                                                                                                                                            		
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            

				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9315
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
								
                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                            That looks just like the Ye Olde Huff & Puff kit, probably the same 
                                                                                                                                                                            
prototype.  I think the YOHNP kit may have started life as an LW Models kit.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
Don
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                            
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                            
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                            
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                            
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                            
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                            
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                             ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                            
From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                            
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                            
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:31 PM
                                                                                                                                                                            
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or 
                                                                                                                                                                            
Scratchbuilt?
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
>I have a  early 1950's construction article for a few types of all
                                                                                                                                                                            
> wood cars including the coke car I've attached to this post.
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Sorry about the scan quality. Its one of the first articles I photo-
                                                                                                                                                                            
> copied back in the late 60's at the library with those  old copiers.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> It's originally printed on that pulpy Korean War era brown-yellow
                                                                                                                                                                            
> magazine paper.
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
> If anyone would like the article, I could post it. It's a very nice
                                                                                                                                                                            
> and rather easy build of about six  types of cars of the TOC period.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> The author even hand lettered the cars by brush.
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
> The text reads a lot better than the images came out.
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
> On Mar 31, 2009, at 5:25 PM, Rick Jones wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
>> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            
>>> Model coke cars are seldom seen, and I am not familiar with any
                                                                                                                                                                            
>>> vintage kits for them.
                                                                                                                                                                            
>>
                                                                                                                                                                            
>>    I know that I have seen model kits for coke cars but I don't recall
                                                                                                                                                                            
>> the specific manufacturer. Seems that it may have been Silver Streak
                                                                                                                                                                            
>> or
                                                                                                                                                                            
>> Ye Old Huff 'N Puff.
                                                                                                                                                                            
>>    Yep. Definitely the latter. Found it in the '93 Walthers catalog -
                                                                                                                                                                            
>> 37' truss rod coke car; undecorated, Walthers stock #792-353.
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Attachments:
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            

								
                                                                                                                                                                            
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
						                                                                                                                                                                            		
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            

				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9316
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Subject: Re: Cast Metal Knapp, John English Passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
								
                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                            Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, you picked up on my specific question to exclude all of the various extruded metal modern cars, even though some of them had cast ends.  
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            Sadly, my Knapp coach does not have the original trucks.  But the trucks that they do have confused the heck out of the sellers.  Why?  They are the plastic Hobbyline trucks you mentioned in discussing their first two streamliners!  So one of them was telling me that my new Knapp purchase was a John English coach, but the other partner though he was wrong.   I actually had never seen the trucks or car before, but knew enough that what I had was not John English as I had one by that time.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            I just pulled it out before and am marveling at the fact that in my opinion, this 70 year old model looks good enough to run with the best of the new on any layout today!  
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            Incidentally, since you mentioned that Knapp had proposed some freight cars, I looked up the Knapp page on the inside cover of Howell Day's 1939 catalog, and it advertised the Knapp assembled freight set #200,  @ $34.50,  as was set #300, the passenger set. The not so clear illustration, which looks like it was copied from a Knapp catalog illustration, shows the Mountain pulling a gondola, flat car and caboose, the two car passenger train shown above it.  While freight cars are not advertised individually, the "combination Baggage-smoker" you mentioned was listed as kit # 600A @ $4.75  (the coach was kit #601A, also $4.75).  To bad they did not last at long enough to make us some of those combines and freight cars!
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            Like the man said, "The stuff dreams are made of."
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                            > I am going to try to answer a few of the questions you pose but I have to be careful as I don't want any MISTAKES.
                                                                                                                                                                            > There were two types of HObbyline plastic streamline cars made. A coach and observation. The only sets I've seen, I have or are cataloged have 3 coaches and an observation in them.
                                                                                                                                                                            > Road names included Pennsylvania and California Zephyr (?) The first set he put out had the Pennsylvania roadname but the cars each the different names of 4 towns that John English had run his business in. Now remember we are only talking the STREAMLINED plastic HObbyline cars. I'm sitting at the computer and would have to check those town names (to be sure) if you want to know.. Also remember that HObbyline passenger cars had trucks with plastic sideframes (unlike Penn Line metal).
                                                                                                                                                                            > I didn't know what the Knapp cast metal coaches were modeled after but they were nicely done ( as were John English metal passenger cars). Off hand they (Knapp and John English) are the only CAST "modern" metal passenger cars I can remember. There were plenty of extruded metal passenger cars but they don't matter to answer your question. Knapp had planned to come out with a combine to match the coach (plus a number of metal freight cars) but after they had trouble with their 4-8-2 Mountain engine they got out of the HO business. The engine went to Bill Bowser of Redlands CA and he corrected the problem and sold the revamped Mountain. The Knapp freight cars were never made and the coach never produced again.
                                                                                                                                                                            > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                            > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                            > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                            > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                            > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: must clarify & John English Coaches
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > Enjoyed seeing your English diecast metal coaches, have two in undec, waiting for paint until I find a matching combine one day. I am much less well versed on passenger cars, but have a good working knowledge of Red Ball (later Binkley); American Beauty and some others. Like many of my age, my first HO passenger cars as a young teen in the early 1960's were the Penn Line versions of the English/Hobbyline/ Varney/Life-Like family cars, but until now, was unclear how many, if any, of the streamlined cars were completed by Hobbyline before sale of the dies to Penn Line. Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > It took me two years, until last summer, when I finally bought two of Howell Day's Model Railroad Shop larged sized catalogs from 1939 and 1940 to identify my Knapp coach, as one of them had a full page on Knapp in the back, with tiny, blurry photo. (And then joining here last week, saw one in your album as well as another's!) I knew it was something special when I picked it up at a train show as it never left my hand again at that table! BTW, except for the number of roof vents, the Knapp coach is an almost dead ringer for Jersey Central suburban coaches and possibly Reading. 
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > Besides Knapp and John English, did any others produce any complete cast metal "modern" passenger cars, as opposed to "old time" cars like the Laconia/Ulrich Sierra models and the Selley "Cinder Queen"?
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" jimheck@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Must clarify and change a word. I said John English metal kits and meant to say undecorated (not factory painted) so I could take liberties in repainting as I please.
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Thank You Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            
 
                                                                                                                                                                            

								
                                                                                                                                                                            
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
						                                                                                                                                                                            		
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            

				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9317
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Subject: Re: Megow and Van Hobbies Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
								
                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                            To post photos, go to the photos section.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
Upper right hand corner you'll see "create album"
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
Click on that and you'll be prompted to give it a name, and whether it's 
                                                                                                                                                                            
public (anyone can add pictures) or private (only you and the moderator can 
                                                                                                                                                                            
add pictures, but any member can still view it).  Then, when the album is 
                                                                                                                                                                            
created, go into it and again, upper right hand corner, click on "add 
                                                                                                                                                                            
photo".  That will open up a window where you can browse your own hard drive 
                                                                                                                                                                            
to pick photos you want to add.  Then, click on "upload photos" and you 
                                                                                                                                                                            
should be set.  It will give you the option to rename them and to add a 
                                                                                                                                                                            
descriptive caption.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
Don
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                            
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                            
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                            
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                            
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                            
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                            
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                             ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                            
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                            
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                            
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                            
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Megow and Van Hobbies Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
My computer problems have been resolved .To bad the person behind the 
                                                                                                                                                                            
computer is a dinosaur. As you can see if it wasn't for Chuck H I wouldn't 
                                                                                                                                                                            
even have an album. I just don't know how to create all the needed albums, 
                                                                                                                                                                            
cut and paste and get the pictures from the camera to them. Be glad to CC 
                                                                                                                                                                            
all pictures to anyone who has the knowledge , time and patience to create 
                                                                                                                                                                            
these albums. Sorry.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
                                                 Jim H. 
                                                                                                                                                                            

								
                                                                                                                                                                            
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
						                                                                                                                                                                            		
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            

				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9318
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Subject: Re: Picard Kit Cars, "Something to write home about..."
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
								
                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                            Jay,

                                                                                                                                                                            You will find assembling those Picard parts is pretty easy. I assembled a 50' OO wagontop boxcar, and put new Champion sides on it (Paper sides can occasionally be found on eBay). Turned out nice.

                                                                                                                                                                            Picard did do O scale as well- I got a bunch of their cars I fitted for three rail. In fact, I once bought four cars unbuilt in their boxes, including a quad hopper with instructions. There was also a wooden caboose kit that I built up.

                                                                                                                                                                            You're right about the paper sides. Most of m Picard O Scale has Westbrook sides, my OO has mostly Champion sides. Usually all they need is some trimming.

                                                                                                                                                                            I remember a while back seeing a big lot on eBay of Picard cars with a couple Mantuas in it. I ended up in the hospital for a seizure problem, and by the time I got home, the auction was over with no bids. I emailed the seller and explained the
 situation, and he sold it to me anyway. Most cars needed work, but I have the time, and skills.

                                                                                                                                                                            I might upload a few pics of my Picard OO stuff sometime. It's somewhere on my to do list.

                                                                                                                                                                            -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                             --- On Tue, 3/31/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                            From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Picard Kit Cars, "Something to write home about..."
                                                                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                            Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 8:23 PM

                                                                                                                                                                            






    
                                                                                                                                                                            
            
                                                                                                                                                                            Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
I did find your Picard album interesting.  Your recently assembled gray car is the same covered hopper that I still have as a kit; I believe it is based on a profile of a PPR prototype, even if all the side framing is a bit different than the prototype.  A while back, I was completely mystified as to who Picard Novelty Co. was (OO? O?) and where they fit into HO.  
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
Besides their open and covered hopper complete kits, their low cost kits box car and reefer core kits allowed modelers on a budget to purchase a higher priced line's sides alone, like Red Ball, or lines like Champions that I understand sold only sides, then add them to the Picard body shell.  Recently, I acquired a couple of small lots which had about 4 or 5 Picard 36' and 40' boxcar core kits in it with remains of their paper tape wrapper bands, (all mixed up in a ziplock bag with Varney parts!) Going to have fun with those and some of my extra printed sides!
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
>If you go to the group photo page and go to about the second last >page of albums you'll find my Picard album (I put a "z" in front of >the name of all my albums so the other members all could come >first)  You may find it interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                            
> don.dellmann@ ...
                                                                                                                                                                            
> http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                            
> http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                            
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                            
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > The Picard Hopper is simply a nicely constructed example decaled for DT&I. 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Also found in the small group was a Picard covered hopper lettered for 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > General Electric, but no photo yet.  I have previously found an 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > unassembled Picard covered hopper kit with instructons, which  bear the 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > slogan, "Something to write home about!"  > > Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                              


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                            

								
                                                                                                                                                                            
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
						                                                                                                                                                                            		
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            

				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9319
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Subject: Re: Cast Metal Knapp, John English Passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
								
                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                            I have some photos up from a year and a half ago or so titled "Knapp cast aluminum coach".
                                                                                                                                                                            
Anybody have photos of what the trucks should look like?
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                             >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Yes, you picked up on my specific question to exclude all of the various
                                                                                                                                                                            
> extruded metal modern cars, even though some of them had cast ends.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Sadly, my Knapp coach does not have the original trucks.  But the trucks
                                                                                                                                                                            
> that they do have confused the heck out of the sellers.  Why?  They are
                                                                                                                                                                            
> the plastic Hobbyline trucks you mentioned in discussing their first two
                                                                                                                                                                            
> streamliners!  So one of them was telling me that my new Knapp purchase
                                                                                                                                                                            
> was a John English coach, but the other partner though he was wrong.   I
                                                                                                                                                                            
> actually had never seen the trucks or car before, but knew enough that
                                                                                                                                                                            
> what I had was not John English as I had one by that time.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> I just pulled it out before and am marveling at the fact that in my
                                                                                                                                                                            
> opinion, this 70 year old model looks good enough to run with the best
                                                                                                                                                                            
> of the new on any layout today!
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Incidentally, since you mentioned that Knapp had proposed some freight
                                                                                                                                                                            
> cars, I looked up the Knapp page on the inside cover of Howell Day's
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 1939 catalog, and it advertised the Knapp assembled freight set #200,  @
                                                                                                                                                                            
> $34.50,  as was set #300, the passenger set. The not so clear
                                                                                                                                                                            
> illustration, which looks like it was copied from a Knapp catalog
                                                                                                                                                                            
> illustration, shows the Mountain pulling a gondola, flat car and
                                                                                                                                                                            
> caboose, the two car passenger train shown above it.  While freight cars
                                                                                                                                                                            
> are not advertised individually, the "combination Baggage-smoker" you
                                                                                                                                                                            
> mentioned was listed as kit # 600A @ $4.75  (the coach was kit #601A,
                                                                                                                                                                            
> also $4.75).  To bad they did not last at long enough to make us some of
                                                                                                                                                                            
> those combines and freight cars!
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Like the man said, "The stuff dreams are made of."
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            
> >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > I am going to try to answer a few of the questions you pose but I have
                                                                                                                                                                            
> to be careful as I don't want any MISTAKES.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > There were two types of HObbyline plastic streamline cars made. A
                                                                                                                                                                            
> coach and observation. The only sets I've seen, I have or are cataloged
                                                                                                                                                                            
> have 3 coaches and an observation in them.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Road names included Pennsylvania and California Zephyr (?) The first
                                                                                                                                                                            
> set he put out had the Pennsylvania roadname but the cars each the
                                                                                                                                                                            
> different names of 4 towns that John English had run his business in.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Now remember we are only talking the STREAMLINED plastic HObbyline cars.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> I'm sitting at the computer and would have to check those town names (to
                                                                                                                                                                            
> be sure) if you want to know.. Also remember that HObbyline passenger
                                                                                                                                                                            
> cars had trucks with plastic sideframes (unlike Penn Line metal).
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > I didn't know what the Knapp cast metal coaches were modeled after but
                                                                                                                                                                            
> they were nicely done ( as were John English metal passenger cars). Off
                                                                                                                                                                            
> hand they (Knapp and John English) are the only CAST "modern" metal
                                                                                                                                                                            
> passenger cars I can remember. There were plenty of extruded metal
                                                                                                                                                                            
> passenger cars but they don't matter to answer your question. Knapp had
                                                                                                                                                                            
> planned to come out with a combine to match the coach (plus a number of
                                                                                                                                                                            
> metal freight cars) but after they had trouble with their 4-8-2 Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                            
> engine they got out of the HO business. The engine went to Bill Bowser
                                                                                                                                                                            
> of Redlands CA and he corrected the problem and sold the revamped
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Mountain. The Knapp freight cars were never made and the coach never
                                                                                                                                                                            
> produced again.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                            
> >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > From: the_plainsman
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: must clarify & John English Coaches
                                                                                                                                                                            
> >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                            
> >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Enjoyed seeing your English diecast metal coaches, have two in undec,
                                                                                                                                                                            
> waiting for paint until I find a matching combine one day. I am much
                                                                                                                                                                            
> less well versed on passenger cars, but have a good working knowledge of
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Red Ball (later Binkley); American Beauty and some others. Like many of
                                                                                                                                                                            
> my age, my first HO passenger cars as a young teen in the early 1960's
                                                                                                                                                                            
> were the Penn Line versions of the English/Hobbyline/ Varney/Life-Like
                                                                                                                                                                            
> family cars, but until now, was unclear how many, if any, of the
                                                                                                                                                                            
> streamlined cars were completed by Hobbyline before sale of the dies to
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Penn Line. Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                            
> >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > It took me two years, until last summer, when I finally bought two of
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Howell Day's Model Railroad Shop larged sized catalogs from 1939 and
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 1940 to identify my Knapp coach, as one of them had a full page on Knapp
                                                                                                                                                                            
> in the back, with tiny, blurry photo. (And then joining here last week,
                                                                                                                                                                            
> saw one in your album as well as another's!) I knew it was something
                                                                                                                                                                            
> special when I picked it up at a train show as it never left my hand
                                                                                                                                                                            
> again at that table! BTW, except for the number of roof vents, the Knapp
                                                                                                                                                                            
> coach is an almost dead ringer for Jersey Central suburban coaches and
                                                                                                                                                                            
> possibly Reading.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Besides Knapp and John English, did any others produce any complete
                                                                                                                                                                            
> cast metal "modern" passenger cars, as opposed to "old time" cars like
                                                                                                                                                                            
> the Laconia/Ulrich Sierra models and the Selley "Cinder Queen"?
                                                                                                                                                                            
> >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" jimheck@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > Must clarify and change a word. I said John English metal kits and
                                                                                                                                                                            
> meant to say undecorated (not factory painted) so I could take liberties
                                                                                                                                                                            
> in repainting as I please.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > Thank You Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            

								
                                                                                                                                                                            
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
						                                                                                                                                                                            		
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            

				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9320
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Subject: Re: Cast Metal Knapp, John English Passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
								
                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                            Ooops.
                                                                                                                                                                            
They are on Yardbird's forum.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                             >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> I have some photos up from a year and a half ago or so titled "Knapp cast aluminum coach".
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Anybody have photos of what the trucks should look like?
                                                                                                                                                                            
> >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Yes, you picked up on my specific question to exclude all of the various
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > extruded metal modern cars, even though some of them had cast ends.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Sadly, my Knapp coach does not have the original trucks.  But the trucks
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > that they do have confused the heck out of the sellers.  Why?  They are
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > the plastic Hobbyline trucks you mentioned in discussing their first two
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > streamliners!  So one of them was telling me that my new Knapp purchase
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > was a John English coach, but the other partner though he was wrong.   I
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > actually had never seen the trucks or car before, but knew enough that
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > what I had was not John English as I had one by that time.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > I just pulled it out before and am marveling at the fact that in my
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > opinion, this 70 year old model looks good enough to run with the best
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > of the new on any layout today!
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Incidentally, since you mentioned that Knapp had proposed some freight
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > cars, I looked up the Knapp page on the inside cover of Howell Day's
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > 1939 catalog, and it advertised the Knapp assembled freight set #200,  @
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > $34.50,  as was set #300, the passenger set. The not so clear
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > illustration, which looks like it was copied from a Knapp catalog
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > illustration, shows the Mountain pulling a gondola, flat car and
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > caboose, the two car passenger train shown above it.  While freight cars
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > are not advertised individually, the "combination Baggage-smoker" you
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > mentioned was listed as kit # 600A @ $4.75  (the coach was kit #601A,
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > also $4.75).  To bad they did not last at long enough to make us some of
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > those combines and freight cars!
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Like the man said, "The stuff dreams are made of."
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > I am going to try to answer a few of the questions you pose but I have
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > to be careful as I don't want any MISTAKES.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > There were two types of HObbyline plastic streamline cars made. A
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > coach and observation. The only sets I've seen, I have or are cataloged
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > have 3 coaches and an observation in them.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > Road names included Pennsylvania and California Zephyr (?) The first
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > set he put out had the Pennsylvania roadname but the cars each the
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > different names of 4 towns that John English had run his business in.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Now remember we are only talking the STREAMLINED plastic HObbyline cars.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > I'm sitting at the computer and would have to check those town names (to
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > be sure) if you want to know.. Also remember that HObbyline passenger
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > cars had trucks with plastic sideframes (unlike Penn Line metal).
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > I didn't know what the Knapp cast metal coaches were modeled after but
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > they were nicely done ( as were John English metal passenger cars). Off
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > hand they (Knapp and John English) are the only CAST "modern" metal
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > passenger cars I can remember. There were plenty of extruded metal
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > passenger cars but they don't matter to answer your question. Knapp had
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > planned to come out with a combine to match the coach (plus a number of
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > metal freight cars) but after they had trouble with their 4-8-2 Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > engine they got out of the HO business. The engine went to Bill Bowser
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > of Redlands CA and he corrected the problem and sold the revamped
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Mountain. The Knapp freight cars were never made and the coach never
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > produced again.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > From: the_plainsman
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: must clarify & John English Coaches
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > Enjoyed seeing your English diecast metal coaches, have two in undec,
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > waiting for paint until I find a matching combine one day. I am much
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > less well versed on passenger cars, but have a good working knowledge of
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Red Ball (later Binkley); American Beauty and some others. Like many of
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > my age, my first HO passenger cars as a young teen in the early 1960's
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > were the Penn Line versions of the English/Hobbyline/ Varney/Life-Like
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > family cars, but until now, was unclear how many, if any, of the
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > streamlined cars were completed by Hobbyline before sale of the dies to
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Penn Line. Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > It took me two years, until last summer, when I finally bought two of
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Howell Day's Model Railroad Shop larged sized catalogs from 1939 and
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > 1940 to identify my Knapp coach, as one of them had a full page on Knapp
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > in the back, with tiny, blurry photo. (And then joining here last week,
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > saw one in your album as well as another's!) I knew it was something
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > special when I picked it up at a train show as it never left my hand
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > again at that table! BTW, except for the number of roof vents, the Knapp
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > coach is an almost dead ringer for Jersey Central suburban coaches and
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > possibly Reading.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > Besides Knapp and John English, did any others produce any complete
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > cast metal "modern" passenger cars, as opposed to "old time" cars like
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > the Laconia/Ulrich Sierra models and the Selley "Cinder Queen"?
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" jimheck@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > > Must clarify and change a word. I said John English metal kits and
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > meant to say undecorated (not factory painted) so I could take liberties
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > in repainting as I please.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > > Thank You Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            

								
                                                                                                                                                                            
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
						                                                                                                                                                                            		
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            

				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9321
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Subject: Re: Cast Metal Knapp, John English Passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
								
                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                            

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                   Remember you 
had a photo up on a site for a while under trainwrcs ? and wanted it 
identified. I was that person who told you  it was Knapp. 
You previously contacted the one train magazine to ask them and they didn't 
know and then notified them that after a long period of time someone identified 
it. That person contacted me to say thank you for the ID. I mention this because 
I was sure I sent pictures including the trucks. If my mind is failing me I will 
be glad to send close-ups of them and the odd cast brass non working long 
shanked talgo couplers ( same as on the brass Knapp Mountain tender ) that 
fit in a slot made in the trucks. 
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                    If you 
want to see again no problem. I'll send them tomorrow.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                            From: 
  curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                            
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 10:35 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Cast Metal 
  Knapp, John English Passenger cars
                                                                                                                                                                            
  

                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                            I have some photos up from a year and a half ago or so titled "Knapp cast 
  aluminum coach".
                                                                                                                                                                            Anybody have photos of what the trucks should look 
  like?
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > Yes, you picked up on 
  my specific question to exclude all of the various
                                                                                                                                                                            > extruded metal 
  modern cars, even though some of them had cast ends.
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > Sadly, 
  my Knapp coach does not have the original trucks. But the trucks
                                                                                                                                                                            > that 
  they do have confused the heck out of the sellers. Why? They are
                                                                                                                                                                            > the 
  plastic Hobbyline trucks you mentioned in discussing their first two
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  streamliners! So one of them was telling me that my new Knapp purchase
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  was a John English coach, but the other partner though he was wrong. I
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  actually had never seen the trucks or car before, but knew enough that
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  what I had was not John English as I had one by that time.
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > I 
  just pulled it out before and am marveling at the fact that in my
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  opinion, this 70 year old model looks good enough to run with the best
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  of the new on any layout today!
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > Incidentally, since you 
  mentioned that Knapp had proposed some freight
                                                                                                                                                                            > cars, I looked up the 
  Knapp page on the inside cover of Howell Day's
                                                                                                                                                                            > 1939 catalog, and it 
  advertised the Knapp assembled freight set #200, @
                                                                                                                                                                            > $34.50, as was set 
  #300, the passenger set. The not so clear
                                                                                                                                                                            > illustration, which looks 
  like it was copied from a Knapp catalog
                                                                                                                                                                            > illustration, shows the 
  Mountain pulling a gondola, flat car and
                                                                                                                                                                            > caboose, the two car 
  passenger train shown above it. While freight cars
                                                                                                                                                                            > are not advertised 
  individually, the "combination Baggage-smoker" you
                                                                                                                                                                            > mentioned was 
  listed as kit # 600A @ $4.75 (the coach was kit #601A,
                                                                                                                                                                            > also $4.75). To 
  bad they did not last at long enough to make us some of
                                                                                                                                                                            > those combines 
  and freight cars!
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > Like the man said, "The stuff dreams are 
  made of."
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  > I am going to try to answer a few of the questions you pose but I 
  have
                                                                                                                                                                            > to be careful as I don't want any MISTAKES.
                                                                                                                                                                            > > There 
  were two types of HObbyline plastic streamline cars made. A
                                                                                                                                                                            > coach and 
  observation. The only sets I've seen, I have or are cataloged
                                                                                                                                                                            > have 3 
  coaches and an observation in them.
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Road names included 
  Pennsylvania and California Zephyr (?) The first
                                                                                                                                                                            > set he put out had 
  the Pennsylvania roadname but the cars each the
                                                                                                                                                                            > different names of 4 
  towns that John English had run his business in.
                                                                                                                                                                            > Now remember we are 
  only talking the STREAMLINED plastic HObbyline cars.
                                                                                                                                                                            > I'm sitting at 
  the computer and would have to check those town names (to
                                                                                                                                                                            > be sure) if 
  you want to know.. Also remember that HObbyline passenger
                                                                                                                                                                            > cars had 
  trucks with plastic sideframes (unlike Penn Line metal).
                                                                                                                                                                            > > I didn't 
  know what the Knapp cast metal coaches were modeled after but
                                                                                                                                                                            > they 
  were nicely done ( as were John English metal passenger cars). Off
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  hand they (Knapp and John English) are the only CAST "modern" metal
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  passenger cars I can remember. There were plenty of extruded metal
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  passenger cars but they don't matter to answer your question. Knapp 
  had
                                                                                                                                                                            > planned to come out with a combine to match the coach (plus a 
  number of
                                                                                                                                                                            > metal freight cars) but after they had trouble with their 
  4-8-2 Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                            > engine they got out of the HO business. The engine went 
  to Bill Bowser
                                                                                                                                                                            > of Redlands CA and he corrected the problem and sold 
  the revamped
                                                                                                                                                                            > Mountain. The Knapp freight cars were never made and the 
  coach never
                                                                                                                                                                            > produced again.
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                            > > From: the_plainsman
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Re: must clarify & John English Coaches
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  > Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Enjoyed seeing your English diecast 
  metal coaches, have two in undec,
                                                                                                                                                                            > waiting for paint until I find a 
  matching combine one day. I am much
                                                                                                                                                                            > less well versed on passenger 
  cars, but have a good working knowledge of
                                                                                                                                                                            > Red Ball (later Binkley); 
  American Beauty and some others. Like many of
                                                                                                                                                                            > my age, my first HO 
  passenger cars as a young teen in the early 1960's
                                                                                                                                                                            > were the Penn Line 
  versions of the English/Hobbyline/ Varney/Life- Like
                                                                                                                                                                            > family cars, 
  but until now, was unclear how many, if any, of the
                                                                                                                                                                            > streamlined cars 
  were completed by Hobbyline before sale of the dies to
                                                                                                                                                                            > Penn Line. 
  Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > It took me two years, until last summer, 
  when I finally bought two of
                                                                                                                                                                            > Howell Day's Model Railroad Shop larged 
  sized catalogs from 1939 and
                                                                                                                                                                            > 1940 to identify my Knapp coach, as one 
  of them had a full page on Knapp
                                                                                                                                                                            > in the back, with tiny, blurry photo. 
  (And then joining here last week,
                                                                                                                                                                            > saw one in your album as well as 
  another's!) I knew it was something
                                                                                                                                                                            > special when I picked it up at a 
  train show as it never left my hand
                                                                                                                                                                            > again at that table! BTW, except 
  for the number of roof vents, the Knapp
                                                                                                                                                                            > coach is an almost dead ringer 
  for Jersey Central suburban coaches and
                                                                                                                                                                            > possibly Reading.
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Besides Knapp and John English, did any others produce any 
  complete
                                                                                                                                                                            > cast metal "modern" passenger cars, as opposed to "old time" 
  cars like
                                                                                                                                                                            > the Laconia/Ulrich Sierra models and the Selley "Cinder 
  Queen"?
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" jimheck@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Hi 
  All,
                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Must clarify and change a word. I said John English 
  metal kits and
                                                                                                                                                                            > meant to say undecorated (not factory painted) so I 
  could take liberties
                                                                                                                                                                            > in repainting as I please.
                                                                                                                                                                            > > > 
  Thank You Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            >

                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                            

								
                                                                                                                                                                            
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
						                                                                                                                                                                            		
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            

				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9322
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Subject: Re: Cast Metal Knapp, John English Passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
								
                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                            

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                Just remembered. Picture of the 
Knapp passenger truck is on this site. Go to Jim Heckard Photos (by 
chuckie). Picture JH017 (second page of photos) is the Knapp passenger truck 
with coupler. 
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                            From: 
  curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                            
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 10:35 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Cast Metal 
  Knapp, John English Passenger cars
                                                                                                                                                                            
  

                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                            I have some photos up from a year and a half ago or so titled "Knapp cast 
  aluminum coach".
                                                                                                                                                                            Anybody have photos of what the trucks should look 
  like?
                                                                                                                                                                            >
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > Yes, you picked up on 
  my specific question to exclude all of the various
                                                                                                                                                                            > extruded metal 
  modern cars, even though some of them had cast ends.
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > Sadly, 
  my Knapp coach does not have the original trucks. But the trucks
                                                                                                                                                                            > that 
  they do have confused the heck out of the sellers. Why? They are
                                                                                                                                                                            > the 
  plastic Hobbyline trucks you mentioned in discussing their first two
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  streamliners! So one of them was telling me that my new Knapp purchase
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  was a John English coach, but the other partner though he was wrong. I
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  actually had never seen the trucks or car before, but knew enough that
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  what I had was not John English as I had one by that time.
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > I 
  just pulled it out before and am marveling at the fact that in my
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  opinion, this 70 year old model looks good enough to run with the best
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  of the new on any layout today!
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > Incidentally, since you 
  mentioned that Knapp had proposed some freight
                                                                                                                                                                            > cars, I looked up the 
  Knapp page on the inside cover of Howell Day's
                                                                                                                                                                            > 1939 catalog, and it 
  advertised the Knapp assembled freight set #200, @
                                                                                                                                                                            > $34.50, as was set 
  #300, the passenger set. The not so clear
                                                                                                                                                                            > illustration, which looks 
  like it was copied from a Knapp catalog
                                                                                                                                                                            > illustration, shows the 
  Mountain pulling a gondola, flat car and
                                                                                                                                                                            > caboose, the two car 
  passenger train shown above it. While freight cars
                                                                                                                                                                            > are not advertised 
  individually, the "combination Baggage-smoker" you
                                                                                                                                                                            > mentioned was 
  listed as kit # 600A @ $4.75 (the coach was kit #601A,
                                                                                                                                                                            > also $4.75). To 
  bad they did not last at long enough to make us some of
                                                                                                                                                                            > those combines 
  and freight cars!
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > Like the man said, "The stuff dreams are 
  made of."
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
                                                                                                                                                                            > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  > I am going to try to answer a few of the questions you pose but I 
  have
                                                                                                                                                                            > to be careful as I don't want any MISTAKES.
                                                                                                                                                                            > > There 
  were two types of HObbyline plastic streamline cars made. A
                                                                                                                                                                            > coach and 
  observation. The only sets I've seen, I have or are cataloged
                                                                                                                                                                            > have 3 
  coaches and an observation in them.
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Road names included 
  Pennsylvania and California Zephyr (?) The first
                                                                                                                                                                            > set he put out had 
  the Pennsylvania roadname but the cars each the
                                                                                                                                                                            > different names of 4 
  towns that John English had run his business in.
                                                                                                                                                                            > Now remember we are 
  only talking the STREAMLINED plastic HObbyline cars.
                                                                                                                                                                            > I'm sitting at 
  the computer and would have to check those town names (to
                                                                                                                                                                            > be sure) if 
  you want to know.. Also remember that HObbyline passenger
                                                                                                                                                                            > cars had 
  trucks with plastic sideframes (unlike Penn Line metal).
                                                                                                                                                                            > > I didn't 
  know what the Knapp cast metal coaches were modeled after but
                                                                                                                                                                            > they 
  were nicely done ( as were John English metal passenger cars). Off
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  hand they (Knapp and John English) are the only CAST "modern" metal
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  passenger cars I can remember. There were plenty of extruded metal
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  passenger cars but they don't matter to answer your question. Knapp 
  had
                                                                                                                                                                            > planned to come out with a combine to match the coach (plus a 
  number of
                                                                                                                                                                            > metal freight cars) but after they had trouble with their 
  4-8-2 Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                            > engine they got out of the HO business. The engine went 
  to Bill Bowser
                                                                                                                                                                            > of Redlands CA and he corrected the problem and sold 
  the revamped
                                                                                                                                                                            > Mountain. The Knapp freight cars were never made and the 
  coach never
                                                                                                                                                                            > produced again.
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                            > > From: the_plainsman
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Re: must clarify & John English Coaches
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  > Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Enjoyed seeing your English diecast 
  metal coaches, have two in undec,
                                                                                                                                                                            > waiting for paint until I find a 
  matching combine one day. I am much
                                                                                                                                                                            > less well versed on passenger 
  cars, but have a good working knowledge of
                                                                                                                                                                            > Red Ball (later Binkley); 
  American Beauty and some others. Like many of
                                                                                                                                                                            > my age, my first HO 
  passenger cars as a young teen in the early 1960's
                                                                                                                                                                            > were the Penn Line 
  versions of the English/Hobbyline/ Varney/Life- Like
                                                                                                                                                                            > family cars, 
  but until now, was unclear how many, if any, of the
                                                                                                                                                                            > streamlined cars 
  were completed by Hobbyline before sale of the dies to
                                                                                                                                                                            > Penn Line. 
  Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > It took me two years, until last summer, 
  when I finally bought two of
                                                                                                                                                                            > Howell Day's Model Railroad Shop larged 
  sized catalogs from 1939 and
                                                                                                                                                                            > 1940 to identify my Knapp coach, as one 
  of them had a full page on Knapp
                                                                                                                                                                            > in the back, with tiny, blurry photo. 
  (And then joining here last week,
                                                                                                                                                                            > saw one in your album as well as 
  another's!) I knew it was something
                                                                                                                                                                            > special when I picked it up at a 
  train show as it never left my hand
                                                                                                                                                                            > again at that table! BTW, except 
  for the number of roof vents, the Knapp
                                                                                                                                                                            > coach is an almost dead ringer 
  for Jersey Central suburban coaches and
                                                                                                                                                                            > possibly Reading.
                                                                                                                                                                            > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Besides Knapp and John English, did any others produce any 
  complete
                                                                                                                                                                            > cast metal "modern" passenger cars, as opposed to "old time" 
  cars like
                                                                                                                                                                            > the Laconia/Ulrich Sierra models and the Selley "Cinder 
  Queen"?
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" jimheck@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Hi 
  All,
                                                                                                                                                                            > > > Must clarify and change a word. I said John English 
  metal kits and
                                                                                                                                                                            > meant to say undecorated (not factory painted) so I 
  could take liberties
                                                                                                                                                                            > in repainting as I please.
                                                                                                                                                                            > > > 
  Thank You Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                            > > >
                                                                                                                                                                            > >
                                                                                                                                                                            >

                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                            

								
                                                                                                                                                                            
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
						                                                                                                                                                                            		
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            

				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9323
						From: erieberk
						Date: 3/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Subject: Re: Picard Kit Cars, "Something to write home about..."
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
								
                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                            With an interest here in some of the more obscure rolling stock, I thought I'd mention some of the other cars kits Picard made.  Pre-War and up until 1942, they offered complete (sides included) car kits, although the sides included with them were not lettered, nor painted, but were to use any set of a numerous listing of transfers (decals) offered.  The bodies were white pine blocks, similar to Megow; these came in five lengths: No. X-114 36' block @ 10 cents, No. X-107 40' block @ 10 c, No. X-122 41' @ 10 c, No. 123 42' block @ 10 c and No. X-121 50' block @ 12 1/2 c -- Can't figure how you'd pay for that without being charged 13 cents, unless you bought two for 25 cents.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
The box car kits came with plain sides and overhanging roof, in 36', 40' 42' and 50'.  Then, they also came with plain sides and a receding roof for modern AAR type double-sheathed 41' box cars.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
The reefers (and "Old-Time" box cars) came with scribed sides and ends in 36', 40' and 42' lengths.  The 41' Wagon-Top box cars came with a rounded roof, eaves even with car sides.  The 41' Round-Roof box cars came with the roof set back, or receded from the car sides.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
It was after the War that Picard kits came as "Body-Kits" only, without sides -- which needed to be added to the kit from such manufacturers as Champion or Red Ball (besides also including scribed sides and ends in two series of body kits) -- and yes, Champion made car sides only, they never produced whole kits.  My catalogs (Model Railroad Equipment Company -- Carmen Webster) containing Picard go up until 1950; by 1953, there's no trace of Picard.  During this time they produced 36', 40', 41' 42' and 50' body kits with overhanging roof, 36', 40', 41', 42' and 50' body with receded roof, 40', 41' and 50' Wagon Top body with receded roof, 40', 41' and 50' Wagon Top body with flush roof, 36' 40' 41' and 42' body with scribed sides and overhanging roof and 36', 40', 41' and 42' body with scribed sides and receded roof.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
At this same time, there were other manufacturers who also made just car body kits -- sides to be added.  E.H. Bessey was one of these manufacturers, producing a (G-1) 41' 6" Mill Gondola, a (G-2) Great Northern express reefer and an (G-3) Old Time SP wood box car, as shown in 1950.  Starting in 1953, a company known as F.A. Simons produced a series of 9 body kits; two straight-side gondolas (one 45' 6" and one 50' 6"), one 67' 6" mill gondola, a 50' plain floor flat car, a 50' blank floor flat car, a 1-dome tank car, a 2-dome tank car, a 3-dome tank car and a 44' boom car.  Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                             --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> I did find your Picard album interesting.  Your recently assembled gray car is the same covered hopper that I still have as a kit; I believe it is based on a profile of a PPR prototype, even if all the side framing is a bit different than the prototype.  A while back, I was completely mystified as to who Picard Novelty Co. was (OO? O?) and where they fit into HO.  
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Besides their open and covered hopper complete kits, their low cost kits box car and reefer core kits allowed modelers on a budget to purchase a higher priced line's sides alone, like Red Ball, or lines like Champions that I understand sold only sides, then add them to the Picard body shell.  Recently, I acquired a couple of small lots which had about 4 or 5 Picard 36' and 40' boxcar core kits in it with remains of their paper tape wrapper bands, (all mixed up in a ziplock bag with Varney parts!) Going to have fun with those and some of my extra printed sides!
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> >If you go to the group photo page and go to about the second last >page of albums you'll find my Picard album (I put a "z" in front of >the name of all my albums so the other members all could come >first)  You may find it interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Don
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > don.dellmann@
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                            
> >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > The Picard Hopper is simply a nicely constructed example decaled for DT&I. 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > Also found in the small group was a Picard covered hopper lettered for 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > General Electric, but no photo yet.  I have previously found an 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > unassembled Picard covered hopper kit with instructons, which  bear the 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > slogan, "Something to write home about!"  > > Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            

								
                                                                                                                                                                            
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
						                                                                                                                                                                            		
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            

				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9324
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Subject: Re: Picard Kit Cars, "Something to write home about..."
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
								
                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                            Hi Ray W.,
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
Thanks for the detailed Picard information. It certainly helps to identify some of those "mystery" box cars that show up occasionally, where sometimes a model builder may have added their own thin wood or card sides, (sometimes even hand scribed), and decals to those later open side versions.  With that in mind, will take another look at those mystery items I have and also be more able to sort out those Picard wood parts. I have read the Bessey name, but not Simons.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
I've always been careful in using the Model Railroad Equipment Company Catalogs issued by Carmen Webster for anthing more than a general information source and not on last years or the final word on model materials, as she often carried items in stock long after manufacture ceased.  
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
While some MRE information is very accurate, in other cases, instead of simply re-publishing manufacturer's catalog information, they dissected it, re-combined it and substituted their own numbering system which often does not leave much original information for the model historian or collector to go on. Plus I have found them completely wrong when describing the nature of some kit materials (which first became evident to me when reviewing their Red Ball listings and comparing it to my almost complete R.B. paper collection and very extensive R.B. model collection), but then found descrepancies in other descriptions as well, which was frustrating to find.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
I try to use unbuilt kits as the best source of information (of course not always available), followed by manufacturers catalogs and ads, then the model magazine reviews and reports, then last, the general catalogs of distributors and major dealers like Webster.  
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
Even manufacturers often used out of date photos in their catalogs, Red Ball & Walthers, or even substituted O scale photos for some HO models like Walthers. And sometimes advertised items never saw production, either.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
The fact that I often don't often refer to Carmen Webser's catalog is somewhat ironic in that she included a photograph of the largest scale model that my father ever built right on the cover (1:1 scale)!  I will tell the story of that sometime, while not an HO story, but certainly vintage modeling!
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                             --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            
>
                                                                                                                                                                            
> With an interest here in some of the more obscure rolling stock, I thought I'd mention some of the other cars kits Picard made.  Pre-War and up until 1942, they offered complete (sides included) car kits, although the sides included with them were not lettered, nor painted, but were to use any set of a numerous listing of transfers (decals) offered.  The bodies were white pine blocks, similar to Megow; these came in five lengths: No. X-114 36' block @ 10 cents, No. X-107 40' block @ 10 c, No. X-122 41' @ 10 c, No. 123 42' block @ 10 c and No. X-121 50' block @ 12 1/2 c -- Can't figure how you'd pay for that without being charged 13 cents, unless you bought two for 25 cents.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> The box car kits came with plain sides and overhanging roof, in 36', 40' 42' and 50'.  Then, they also came with plain sides and a receding roof for modern AAR type double-sheathed 41' box cars.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> The reefers (and "Old-Time" box cars) came with scribed sides and ends in 36', 40' and 42' lengths.  The 41' Wagon-Top box cars came with a rounded roof, eaves even with car sides.  The 41' Round-Roof box cars came with the roof set back, or receded from the car sides.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> It was after the War that Picard kits came as "Body-Kits" only, without sides -- which needed to be added to the kit from such manufacturers as Champion or Red Ball (besides also including scribed sides and ends in two series of body kits) -- and yes, Champion made car sides only, they never produced whole kits.  My catalogs (Model Railroad Equipment Company -- Carmen Webster) containing Picard go up until 1950; by 1953, there's no trace of Picard.  During this time they produced 36', 40', 41' 42' and 50' body kits with overhanging roof, 36', 40', 41', 42' and 50' body with receded roof, 40', 41' and 50' Wagon Top body with receded roof, 40', 41' and 50' Wagon Top body with flush roof, 36' 40' 41' and 42' body with scribed sides and overhanging roof and 36', 40', 41' and 42' body with scribed sides and receded roof.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> At this same time, there were other manufacturers who also made just car body kits -- sides to be added.  E.H. Bessey was one of these manufacturers, producing a (G-1) 41' 6" Mill Gondola, a (G-2) Great Northern express reefer and an (G-3) Old Time SP wood box car, as shown in 1950.  Starting in 1953, a company known as F.A. Simons produced a series of 9 body kits; two straight-side gondolas (one 45' 6" and one 50' 6"), one 67' 6" mill gondola, a 50' plain floor flat car, a 50' blank floor flat car, a 1-dome tank car, a 2-dome tank car, a 3-dome tank car and a 44' boom car.  Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                            
> >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > I did find your Picard album interesting.  Your recently assembled gray car is the same covered hopper that I still have as a kit; I believe it is based on a profile of a PPR prototype, even if all the side framing is a bit different than the prototype.  A while back, I was completely mystified as to who Picard Novelty Co. was (OO? O?) and where they fit into HO.  
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Besides their open and covered hopper complete kits, their low cost kits box car and reefer core kits allowed modelers on a budget to purchase a higher priced line's sides alone, like Red Ball, or lines like Champions that I understand sold only sides, then add them to the Picard body shell.  Recently, I acquired a couple of small lots which had about 4 or 5 Picard 36' and 40' boxcar core kits in it with remains of their paper tape wrapper bands, (all mixed up in a ziplock bag with Varney parts!) Going to have fun with those and some of my extra printed sides!
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > >If you go to the group photo page and go to about the second last >page of albums you'll find my Picard album (I put a "z" in front of >the name of all my albums so the other members all could come >first)  You may find it interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > Don
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > don.dellmann@
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > > The Picard Hopper is simply a nicely constructed example decaled for DT&I. 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > > Also found in the small group was a Picard covered hopper lettered for 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > > General Electric, but no photo yet.  I have previously found an 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > > unassembled Picard covered hopper kit with instructons, which  bear the 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > > > slogan, "Something to write home about!"  > > Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                            
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> >
                                                                                                                                                                            
> 
                                                                                                                                                                            

								
                                                                                                                                                                            
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
						                                                                                                                                                                            		
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            

				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9325
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Subject: any takers
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
								
                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                            

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                            Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                 In an effort to let 
everyone see the pictures I send, but people can't get the attachment, because 
of the way their settings are I'm asking is there anyone out there that I 
can cc all pictures to, willing to put them in albums for all to see  
?????? You can decide how many albums, how many pictures in an album, what goes 
where and have the control to make changes as long as my name is 
included  in the album heading and the pictures shown are listed as 
mine.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                            

								
                                                                                                                                                                            
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
						                                                                                                                                                                            		
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            

				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9326
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 4/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Subject: Re: Bathgate Passenger Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
								
                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                            Van's Hobbies was  a Vancouver, BC hobby business. My recollection is  
                                                                                                                                                                            
that their products were largely special productions of  US models  
                                                                                                                                                                            
lettered and/or detailed for the Canadian market.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
I believe that PFM and Van's also had some kind of special business  
                                                                                                                                                                            
relationship, as well- perhaps made easier because they were pretty  
                                                                                                                                                                            
close to each other geographically.   I once possessed several Van's  
                                                                                                                                                                            
Hobbies/PFM Canadian Pacific brass HO locomotives, the packaging of  
                                                                                                                                                                            
which was identical to PFM/United. I do not know whether or not the  
                                                                                                                                                                            
current Van-Hobbies in Vancouver is a related business, but I suspect  
                                                                                                                                                                            
that there is somewhere some sort of historical relationship.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
My general impression of Bathgate model products is they were more  
                                                                                                                                                                            
than just pretty crude for the day, especially as compared to  
                                                                                                                                                                            
contemporary post WWII Varney, Mantua and even Comet offerings.
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                            
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                            
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                            

								
                                                                                                                                                                            
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
						                                                                                                                                                                            		
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            

				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9327
						From: Lennard Stewart
						Date: 4/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						Subject: Re: any takers
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                            
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                            
								
                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                              


  
  

 
Lennard Stewart wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
           Hi Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                              
    
                                                                                                                                                                              
                 I would be more than happy to help you out in this
matter. I have done this before for another person in another group.
                                                                                                                                                                              
Lennard Stewart in East Texas
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              Lennard Stewart
Owner of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1-87scalevehiclesales/
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   In an effort to let everyone
see the pictures I send, but people can't get the attachment, because
of the way their settings are I'm asking is there anyone out there that
I can cc all pictures to, willing to put them in albums for all to see 
?????? You can decide how many albums, how many pictures in an album,
what goes where and have the control to make changes as long as my name
is included  in the album heading and the pictures shown are listed as
mine.
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              

  
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
 

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9328
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Bathgate Passenger Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                              Denny,
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                     Thanks for the 
info on Van's Hobbies. I now know a lot more then I did before. I wasn't even 
sure if it was Van or Van's.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:43 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Bathgate 
  Passenger Car
                                                                                                                                                                              
  

                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Van's Hobbies was a Vancouver, BC hobby business. My recollection is 
  
                                                                                                                                                                              that their products were largely special productions of US models 
  
                                                                                                                                                                              lettered and/or detailed for the Canadian market.

                                                                                                                                                                              I believe that 
  PFM and Van's also had some kind of special business 
                                                                                                                                                                              relationship, as 
  well- perhaps made easier because they were pretty 
                                                                                                                                                                              close to each other 
  geographically. I once possessed several Van's 
                                                                                                                                                                              Hobbies/PFM Canadian 
  Pacific brass HO locomotives, the packaging of 
                                                                                                                                                                              which was identical to 
  PFM/United. I do not know whether or not the 
                                                                                                                                                                              current Van-Hobbies in 
  Vancouver is a related business, but I suspect 
                                                                                                                                                                              that there is somewhere 
  some sort of historical relationship.

                                                                                                                                                                              My general impression of Bathgate 
  model products is they were more 
                                                                                                                                                                              than just pretty crude for the day, 
  especially as compared to 
                                                                                                                                                                              contemporary post WWII Varney, Mantua and even 
  Comet offerings.

                                                                                                                                                                              Denny

                                                                                                                                                                              Denny S. Anspach 
  MD
                                                                                                                                                                              Sacramento

                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9329
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: any takers
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                              Lennard,
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Thanks for the offer and I would like to take you up on it. Let me ask one 
question. Do you receive attachments already that you have the pictures to start 
with or should I cc you anytime I put pictures up ?? If so you will have to 
provide me your home email address so I can cc you.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                            
I already have an album called Jim Heckard's Collection that a friend Chuck 
Higdon had started and adds to. I didn't  want to overfill it so I limit 
what is in it and I didn't want to keep pestering Chuck.. You have to realize I 
have 150+ steam engines, 200+ diesel,  400 + passenger cars along with 
RDC's,electrics, gas electrics,etc. My vintage collection spans 1936 to about 
1977.No freight cars These items are all different with no two alike unless they 
were factory painted but different road names 
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                          So 
you see it might be a lot of pictures including different views of the 
same items for clarity. I want you to know it could be a lot but of course not 
all at once. I will cc you pictures along with what ever text I send to tell 
what each is if you don't already receive. You make albums as you feel, add as 
many pictures as you like, name the albums, etc. I would love to keep all 
together with the other album if possible like Jim Heckard Collection I, II, 
III  and by type like steam or diesel or by company like Jim 
Heckard collection of Penn Line .  Again you decide, you control. I don't 
need to. Feel free to have your name on these but have my name as owner of the 
pieces there too.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                          My 
email address is jimheck@... (This 
whole address might not show but just click on what is there. I'm sure you know 
better then me.).I think we should talk off site to get this set up. Thank You 
again.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
 
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:46 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] any takers
                                                                                                                                                                              
  

                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Lennard Stewart 
  wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                         Hi 
  Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               
  I would be more than happy to help you out in this matter. I have done this 
  before for another person in another group.
                                                                                                                                                                              Lennard Stewart in East 
  Texas
                                                                                                                                                                              Lennard Stewart
Owner of http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/1-87scalev ehiclesales/


                                                                                                                                                                              jim 
  heckard wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
    
                                                                                                                                                                              
    
                                                                                                                                                                              
    
                                                                                                                                                                              Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                              
    
                                                                                                                                                                                   In an effort to let 
    everyone see the pictures I send, but people can't get the attachment, 
    because of the way their settings are I'm asking is there anyone out 
    there that I can cc all pictures to, willing to put them in albums for all 
    to see  ?????? You can decide how many albums, how many pictures in an 
    album, what goes where and have the control to make changes as long as 
    my name is included  in the album heading and the pictures shown are 
    listed as mine.
                                                                                                                                                                              
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9330
						From: Bill Fornshell
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Fwd:  Re: [vintageHO] Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit 
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Mike,
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
I just checked my old RMC's.  The article was in the Oct. 1954 issue.  My issues stop with Sept. that year.  I must have run out of my paper route money that month as I don't have that one.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
I would like to see the article so if you can post it that would be nice.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                              
Bill in Texas
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                              
> <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> I have a  early 1950's construction article for a few
                                                                                                                                                                              
> types of all
                                                                                                                                                                              
> wood cars including the coke car I've attached to this
                                                                                                                                                                              
> post.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Sorry about the scan quality. Its one of the first articles
                                                                                                                                                                              
> I photo-
                                                                                                                                                                              
> copied back in the late 60's at the library with those 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> old copiers.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> It's originally printed on that pulpy Korean War era
                                                                                                                                                                              
> brown-yellow
                                                                                                                                                                              
> magazine paper.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> If anyone would like the article, I could post it. It's
                                                                                                                                                                              
> a very nice
                                                                                                                                                                              
> and rather easy build of about six  types of cars of the
                                                                                                                                                                              
> TOC period.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> The author even hand lettered the cars by brush.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> The text reads a lot better than the images came out.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Milwaukee, Wi 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9331
						From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO 
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                              
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO 
                                                                                                                                                                              
group.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
  File        : /Bill Rau TOC article/page1.gif 
                                                                                                                                                                              
  Uploaded by : mwbauers <mwbauers55@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
  Description : Building Old Time Cars, TOC, 1954 
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                              
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/Bill%20Rau%20TOC%20article/page1.gif 
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                                                                                                                                                                              
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
mwbauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9332
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              I've posted the five pages I have of the 1954 Bill Rau article,  
                                                                                                                                                                              
Building Old Time Cars, in the groups files section.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Sorry about this being scans of late 60's photocopies done in the  
                                                                                                                                                                              
local library. The quality of the images would be a lot better with  
                                                                                                                                                                              
todays scanners compared to the old 60's photocopiers.	
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                              
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                              
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               On Apr 2, 2009, at 5:37 AM, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                              
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                              
> group.
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   File        : /Bill Rau TOC article/page1.gif
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   Uploaded by : mwbauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   Description : Building Old Time Cars, TOC, 1954
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/Bill%20Rau%20TOC% 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 20article/page1.gif
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/ 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> index.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> mwbauers 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9333
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Picard Kit Cars, "Something to write home about..."
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Jay W., My pleasure in supplying the info, if it will help you.  I too try to be as careful as I can in using various sources to gather information on our vintage manufacturers, realizing at times some of those sources may not be completely accurate.  It's for this same reason that I too first prefer using the information from unbuilt kits as an initial source -- just as you seem to prefer.  This was one of my main sources of information when I supplied same to Dave Spanagel in assisting with his Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains and to Dallas Mallerich when assisting him with his Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains, as there's nothing like having the physical confirmation of this info in your hands as positive evidence.  
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Your going to manufacturers' catalogs as the second source is the same direction that I head in when not actually having a piece in the collection, even though there have been times when a manufacturer included an intended new engine or rolling stock kit for that year, which never materialized -- but I feel if they don't know what they produced, surely no one else would.  
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
My third source of information is manufacturers' ads in back issues of MR and RMC -- I have near-complete collections of both magazines going back to Vol.1 No.1 - Jan., 1934 (for MR) and Sept., 1939 (for RMC) -- not quite as complete -- but as I'm sure you're aware, this can be tedious and time consuming.  My last sources, but still usually fairly reliable, are the general catalogs such as Walthers and Model Railroad Equipment Corp. (and others) which I make every effort to cross-reference to ensure accuracy -- when available.  I'm not quite sure of your purpose in pointing out your references sources; mine seem similar, even if there may be differences in the order of them, but the general sequence of sources for this information that we've pointed out would seem to be logical for any of us here.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
In the case of these Picard cars, I'm using a number of mine from my collection, but as for literature on this manufacturer this is one of very few that I don't have a catalog of, so you've got to use some source if you want to find any info on such a manufacturer even if it's my fourth choice as far as my order of preference.  In this case, Carmen Webster's info coincided with what I have in my collection of this manufacturer so I felt it reliable enough to use.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
I would enjoy hearing of your father's building of 1:1 scale (did he kitbash it? -- LOL), even though it's not H0.  You haven't mentioned if this piece of equipment was an engine or freight/passenger car (or part of), but I might guess you may be referring to the replica of the rear portion of the NYC's Commodore Vanderbilt obs. that was used as Model R.R. Equipment Corp's general office, although I could well be mistaken.  Best regards,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Hi Ray W.,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Thanks for the detailed Picard information. It certainly helps to identify some of those "mystery" box cars that show up occasionally, where sometimes a model builder may have added their own thin wood or card sides, (sometimes even hand scribed), and decals to those later open side versions.  With that in mind, will take another look at those mystery items I have and also be more able to sort out those Picard wood parts. I have read the Bessey name, but not Simons.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> I've always been careful in using the Model Railroad Equipment Company Catalogs issued by Carmen Webster for anthing more than a general information source and not on last years or the final word on model materials, as she often carried items in stock long after manufacture ceased.  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> While some MRE information is very accurate, in other cases, instead of simply re-publishing manufacturer's catalog information, they dissected it, re-combined it and substituted their own numbering system which often does not leave much original information for the model historian or collector to go on. Plus I have found them completely wrong when describing the nature of some kit materials (which first became evident to me when reviewing their Red Ball listings and comparing it to my almost complete R.B. paper collection and very extensive R.B. model collection), but then found descrepancies in other descriptions as well, which was frustrating to find.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> I try to use unbuilt kits as the best source of information (of course not always available), followed by manufacturers catalogs and ads, then the model magazine reviews and reports, then last, the general catalogs of distributors and major dealers like Webster.  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Even manufacturers often used out of date photos in their catalogs, Red Ball & Walthers, or even substituted O scale photos for some HO models like Walthers. And sometimes advertised items never saw production, either.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> The fact that I often don't often refer to Carmen Webser's catalog is somewhat ironic in that she included a photograph of the largest scale model that my father ever built right on the cover (1:1 scale)!  I will tell the story of that sometime, while not an HO story, but certainly vintage modeling!
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > With an interest here in some of the more obscure rolling stock, I thought I'd mention some of the other cars kits Picard made.  Pre-War and up until 1942, they offered complete (sides included) car kits, although the sides included with them were not lettered, nor painted, but were to use any set of a numerous listing of transfers (decals) offered.  The bodies were white pine blocks, similar to Megow; these came in five lengths: No. X-114 36' block @ 10 cents, No. X-107 40' block @ 10 c, No. X-122 41' @ 10 c, No. 123 42' block @ 10 c and No. X-121 50' block @ 12 1/2 c -- Can't figure how you'd pay for that without being charged 13 cents, unless you bought two for 25 cents.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > The box car kits came with plain sides and overhanging roof, in 36', 40' 42' and 50'.  Then, they also came with plain sides and a receding roof for modern AAR type double-sheathed 41' box cars.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > The reefers (and "Old-Time" box cars) came with scribed sides and ends in 36', 40' and 42' lengths.  The 41' Wagon-Top box cars came with a rounded roof, eaves even with car sides.  The 41' Round-Roof box cars came with the roof set back, or receded from the car sides.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > It was after the War that Picard kits came as "Body-Kits" only, without sides -- which needed to be added to the kit from such manufacturers as Champion or Red Ball (besides also including scribed sides and ends in two series of body kits) -- and yes, Champion made car sides only, they never produced whole kits.  My catalogs (Model Railroad Equipment Company -- Carmen Webster) containing Picard go up until 1950; by 1953, there's no trace of Picard.  During this time they produced 36', 40', 41' 42' and 50' body kits with overhanging roof, 36', 40', 41', 42' and 50' body with receded roof, 40', 41' and 50' Wagon Top body with receded roof, 40', 41' and 50' Wagon Top body with flush roof, 36' 40' 41' and 42' body with scribed sides and overhanging roof and 36', 40', 41' and 42' body with scribed sides and receded roof.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > At this same time, there were other manufacturers who also made just car body kits -- sides to be added.  E.H. Bessey was one of these manufacturers, producing a (G-1) 41' 6" Mill Gondola, a (G-2) Great Northern express reefer and an (G-3) Old Time SP wood box car, as shown in 1950.  Starting in 1953, a company known as F.A. Simons produced a series of 9 body kits; two straight-side gondolas (one 45' 6" and one 50' 6"), one 67' 6" mill gondola, a 50' plain floor flat car, a 50' blank floor flat car, a 1-dome tank car, a 2-dome tank car, a 3-dome tank car and a 44' boom car.  Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > I did find your Picard album interesting.  Your recently assembled gray car is the same covered hopper that I still have as a kit; I believe it is based on a profile of a PPR prototype, even if all the side framing is a bit different than the prototype.  A while back, I was completely mystified as to who Picard Novelty Co. was (OO? O?) and where they fit into HO.  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > Besides their open and covered hopper complete kits, their low cost kits box car and reefer core kits allowed modelers on a budget to purchase a higher priced line's sides alone, like Red Ball, or lines like Champions that I understand sold only sides, then add them to the Picard body shell.  Recently, I acquired a couple of small lots which had about 4 or 5 Picard 36' and 40' boxcar core kits in it with remains of their paper tape wrapper bands, (all mixed up in a ziplock bag with Varney parts!) Going to have fun with those and some of my extra printed sides!
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > >If you go to the group photo page and go to about the second last >page of albums you'll find my Picard album (I put a "z" in front of >the name of all my albums so the other members all could come >first)  You may find it interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > Don
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > don.dellmann@
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > The Picard Hopper is simply a nicely constructed example decaled for DT&I. 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > Also found in the small group was a Picard covered hopper lettered for 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > General Electric, but no photo yet.  I have previously found an 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > unassembled Picard covered hopper kit with instructons, which  bear the 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > slogan, "Something to write home about!"  > > Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9334
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: a true story
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
  

                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        I would like to 
  pass on this true story about a person in both real railroading and HO that 
  most have never heard of. Yet to me he was an icon and my mentor. 

                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  His name was Anthony "Tony" Reilly. I met him in the 70's when I first was 
  getting into HO model railroading. Tony was 86 when I met him and passed away 
  at 91. His wealth of knowledge both real and model was to say the least 
  fabulous. During his younger days he worked for many railroads, in many 
  different locations, across the country. All of these jobs meant riding the 
  rails. Just by his age you can tell he was into real trains at almost their 
  beginning. He had stories that you could listen to for hours and never get 
  bored. Of course no one took the time out to write them down. Me 
  included
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Later 
  in life and during his retirement he fell in love with HO. He lived in a small 
  Pennsylvania town near me that is named Centralia. This towns history and 
  claim to fame was an underground fire than destroyed the town and all the 
  people had to move elsewhere. 
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   At the time I met Tony 
  he was running a business called the Lehigh Valley Brass shop even though 
  he loved the Reading. Tony's biggest well known fame was being a contributor 
  to Brown's Book of Brass because of his vast knowledge of brass HO engines. In 
  his shop, which was his parlor, he sold, bought and traded brass and brass 
  only. Yet at train shows he was always on the look out for vintage ( just 
  becoming known as vintage) HO items for some of his favorite customers, me for 
  one. And that was not only brass.
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  His shop / hobby was my first 
  look at brass. I couldn't touch it because of price. When Tony would get well 
  used pieces that needed some minor work and a new paint job to improve their 
  resale value he would let me do them. These were my first ventures into 
  painting and decaling. Tony was never disappointed in my work and would pay me 
  off in trains, both brass and others he found at train shows. He knew my 
  interest were those items that were from the 50's and just starting to be 
  know  as vintage.
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                 Tony was to me an innovator and he 
  passed that onto me. When he originally got into HO was also it's beginning. 
  Not much out there to buy. Tony made his own stuff. Some of the things I 
  remember where hand made brass switches which he used on a layout he had and 
  wish today I had. He built his own engines winning some awards. One of the 
  things was he used different size brass bullet shell casings to make leading 
  and trailing truck wheels. He would cut the backs off fill the middles and 
  because of the rim on the shells already had his flanges. He had many hand 
  made cars and some early car kits that I would love today. I actually remember 
  he made little people from chewing gum. I will always remember one box car he 
  built having this little chewing gum bum riding on top.
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Just some memories of a great 
  guy and early HO modeler. He wasn't the only one but he came from a time 
  before you could run to a store.
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hope you enjoyed. I will 
  forever miss "Tony"
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9335
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              >Hi:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
 
                                                                                                                                                                              I'm still watching for a Varney Casey Jones as it was my first HO 
                                                                                                                                                                              
locomotive many years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Through the entire production run of that locomotive, were there 
                                                                                                                                                                              
later production short-cuts, or, "cheapening," of the product?  Or, 
                                                                                                                                                                              
asked in a different manner, if I bought one from an early production 
                                                                                                                                                                              
run, would I see any difference in a very late production run?
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                              
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                              
Odessa/Ritzville, WA
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9336
						From: jerrygart5
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >Hi:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> I'm still watching for a Varney Casey Jones as it was my first HO 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> locomotive many years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Through the entire production run of that locomotive, were there 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> later production short-cuts, or, "cheapening," of the product?  Or, 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> asked in a different manner, if I bought one from an early production 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> run, would I see any difference in a very late production run?
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Odessa/Ritzville, WA
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
 
                                                                                                                                                                              I do not recall that as long as Varney was producing them, there were any changes.  However, Bowser ended up with the dies,and produced them until a couple of months ago (they just announced "no more steam locomotives").  Bowser did go to a brass fabricated frame (the originals had a cast Zamac frame); some dimensional changes were made then (for the better, in my personal opinion).  Consequently, you cannot interchange some of the running gear from one to the other (side rods, drivers, etc.).  So be careful if you need to do any parts replacements.  Jerry Garteiser
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9337
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question-Jerry, and?
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks, Jerry.  I wonder if the Bowser produced Varney's still 
                                                                                                                                                                              
carried the, "Varney," cast-in name on the casting?
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
At 11:42 AM 4/2/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               >--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > I'm still watching for a Varney Casey Jones as it was my first HO
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > locomotive many years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Through the entire production run of that locomotive, were there
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > later production short-cuts, or, "cheapening," of the product?  Or,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > asked in a different manner, if I bought one from an early production
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > run, would I see any difference in a very late production run?
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Odessa/Ritzville, WA
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
>I do not recall that as long as Varney was producing them, there 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>were any changes.  However, Bowser ended up with the dies,and 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>produced them until a couple of months ago (they just announced "no 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>more steam locomotives").  Bowser did go to a brass fabricated frame 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>(the originals had a cast Zamac frame); some dimensional changes 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>were made then (for the better, in my personal 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>opinion).  Consequently, you cannot interchange some of the running 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>gear from one to the other (side rods, drivers, etc.).  So be 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>careful if you need to do any parts replacements.  Jerry Garteiser 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9338
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              The Bowser version of the Casey Jones was much better than the original, as was also for the Old Lady Consolidation, I have the consolidation, the newer Bowser remake, and its one of my best runners, unlike the old Penn Line stuff, Bowser never did really re detail the old Varney's, so much of the superstructures were very much the same old same old, however, the did an excellent job of re doing the old Penn Line steam engines.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              The newer drive is a big improvement over the old Varney, if your needing drive parts, consider re doing the whole thing, and it might even be more cost effective to buy a fresh Bowser kit, instead of rebuilding the original, thats just my opinion, if on the other hand, its a good working mechanism, keep her running, Dan Bush at Yardbird Classic Trains might have the parts to keep your old Varney running...........:o)
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
From: Dennis Thompson <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 1:41:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                               >Hi:

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              I'm still watching for a Varney Casey Jones as it was my first HO 
                                                                                                                                                                              locomotive many years ago.

                                                                                                                                                                              Through the entire production run of that locomotive, were there 
                                                                                                                                                                              later production short-cuts, or, "cheapening, " of the product? Or, 
                                                                                                                                                                              asked in a different manner, if I bought one from an early production 
                                                                                                                                                                              run, would I see any difference in a very late production run?

                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                              Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                              Odessa/Ritzville, WA


                                                                                                                                                                              

      
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9339
						From: toytrain13
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              As I recall, the first runs had blackened castings, and I believe, valve gear included. Later runs didn't include the valve gear and had a plastic superstructure casting for the tender. I also recall that the later runs had a Japanese motor.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> I'm still watching for a Varney Casey Jones as it was my first HO 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> locomotive many years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Through the entire production run of that locomotive, were there 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> later production short-cuts, or, "cheapening," of the product?  Or, 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> asked in a different manner, if I bought one from an early production 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> run, would I see any difference in a very late production run?
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Odessa/Ritzville, WA
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9340
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Don,  The Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff coke car that Jay W. found in the Walthers 1993 catalog and which first was introduced by Rich Koontz (YOHNP) in 1978 was one of a series of 6 "Old Time" truss rod cars -- YOHNP catalog No. 353 (this series eventually grew to 9 Old Time" truss rod cars).  I can't find an original vintage manufacturer for this model, but as we know, YOHNP copied a number of different manufacturers' models (Silver Streak, A-C, L-W, Main Line, etc.).  This series, including the coke car, did not start life as any of the above, though.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
L-W Model Company didn't make any "Old Time" cars, so we can rule that out.  As for YOHNP's Old Time series, it appears that they were not all copied from the same vintage manufacturer.  YOHNP's kit No. 352 Gondola looks very much like Binkley's as do the No. 381 Wood Tank Car and the No. 380 Metal Tank Car, but Binkley never made a coke car.  I'd have to say that up to this point, it seems that the origin of YOHNP's 37' coke car still remains a mystery.  Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> That looks just like the Ye Olde Huff & Puff kit, probably the same 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> prototype.  I think the YOHNP kit may have started life as an LW Models kit.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                              
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                              
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                              
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                              
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                              
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:31 PM
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Scratchbuilt?
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >I have a  early 1950's construction article for a few types of all
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > wood cars including the coke car I've attached to this post.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Sorry about the scan quality. Its one of the first articles I photo-
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > copied back in the late 60's at the library with those  old copiers.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > It's originally printed on that pulpy Korean War era brown-yellow
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > magazine paper.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > If anyone would like the article, I could post it. It's a very nice
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > and rather easy build of about six  types of cars of the TOC period.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > The author even hand lettered the cars by brush.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > The text reads a lot better than the images came out.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > On Mar 31, 2009, at 5:25 PM, Rick Jones wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >>> Model coke cars are seldom seen, and I am not familiar with any
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >>> vintage kits for them.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >>    I know that I have seen model kits for coke cars but I don't recall
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >> the specific manufacturer. Seems that it may have been Silver Streak
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >> or
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >> Ye Old Huff 'N Puff.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >>    Yep. Definitely the latter. Found it in the '93 Walthers catalog -
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >> 37' truss rod coke car; undecorated, Walthers stock #792-353.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Attachments:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9341
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               > Don,  The Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff coke car that Jay W. found in the
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Walthers 1993 catalog...
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Uhmmm...Not to pick too much of a nit, but it was me that found the 
                                                                                                                                                                              
kit in the Walthers catalog and pointed it out to the original poster.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
"You're the disease. I'm the cure."
                                                                                                                                                                              
    -Cobra, "Cobra"
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9342
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Ah, yes.
                                                                                                                                                                              
That Japanese motor looked kinda like a Pittman, but had too much plastic on it, and none I ever had ran any good.
                                                                                                                                                                              
Personal experience?
                                                                                                                                                                              
Zamac Rot seemed to be more prevalent in those later ones with plastic tender shells and Japanese motors.
                                                                                                                                                                              
I just recently pitched the tender floor from a Varney "Old Lady" 2-8-0 that had grown in length about 1/8" and was split all over.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> As I recall, the first runs had blackened castings, and I believe, valve gear included. Later runs didn't include the valve gear and had a plastic superstructure casting for the tender. I also recall that the later runs had a Japanese motor.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > I'm still watching for a Varney Casey Jones as it was my first HO 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > locomotive many years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Through the entire production run of that locomotive, were there 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > later production short-cuts, or, "cheapening," of the product?  Or, 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > asked in a different manner, if I bought one from an early production 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > run, would I see any difference in a very late production run?
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Odessa/Ritzville, WA
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9343
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: a true story
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Jim
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              Absolutely a great, great memory, thanks for sharring it .
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              Charlie W.

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                              From: "jim heckard" 
                                                                                                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: a true story
                                                                                                                                                                              Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:25:46 -0400

                                                                                                                                                                              


 



                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                        I would like to pass on this true story about a person in both real railroading and HO that most have never heard of. Yet to me he was an icon and my mentor. 
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                       His name was Anthony "Tony" Reilly. I met him in the 70's when I first was getting into HO model railroading. Tony was 86 when I met him and passed away at 91. His wealth of knowledge both real and model was to say the least fabulous. During his younger days he worked for many railroads, in many different locations, across the country. All of these jobs meant riding the rails. Just by his age you can tell he was into real trains at almost their beginning. He had stories that you could listen to for hours and never get bored. Of course no one took the time out to write them down. Me included
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                      Later in life and during his retirement he fell in love with HO. He lived in a small Pennsylvania town near me that is named Centralia. This towns history and claim to fame was an underground fire than destroyed the town and all the people had to move elsewhere. 
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                   At the time I met Tony he was running a business called the Lehigh Valley Brass shop even though he loved the Reading. Tony's biggest well known fame was being a contributor to Brown's Book of Brass because of his vast knowledge of brass HO engines. In his shop, which was his parlor, he sold, bought and traded brass and brass only. Yet at train shows he was always on the look out for vintage ( just becoming known as vintage) HO items for some of his favorite customers, me for one. And that was not only brass.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                  His shop / hobby was my first look at brass. I couldn't touch it because of price. When Tony would get well used pieces that needed some minor work and a new paint job to improve their resale value he would let me do them. These were my first ventures into painting and decaling. Tony was never disappointed in my work and would pay me off in trains, both brass and others he found at train shows. He knew my interest were those items that were from the 50's and just starting to be know  as vintage.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                 Tony was to me an innovator and he passed that onto me. When he originally got into HO was also it's beginning. Not much out there to buy. Tony made his own stuff. Some of the things I remember where hand made brass switches which he used on a layout he had and wish today I had. He built his own engines winning some awards. One of the things was he used different size brass bullet shell casings to make leading and trailing truck wheels. He would cut the backs off fill the middles and because of the rim on the shells already had his flanges. He had many hand made cars and some early car kits that I would love today. I actually remember he made little people from chewing gum. I will always remember one box car he built having this little chewing gum bum riding on top.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                  Just some memories of a great guy and early HO modeler. He wasn't the only one but he came from a time before you could run to a store.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hope you enjoyed. I will forever miss "Tony"
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              

-- 

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9344
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                              Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                  Even though others have 
responded I thought I would add to the Varney "Casey Jones"story. I am going to 
copy a lot of this right out of "Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains" 
by John David Spangel. I don't want to make any mistakes just relying on my 
knowledge. Here goes with my one finger typing.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                    Page 57   
2450K 4-6-0 Casey Jones kit. This engine had a lightweight cast Zamac boiler. 
Most detail was cast in place (air pumps, air tanks, power reverse, 
whistle  and pop off valves. 63" scale drivers were pressed onto the axles 
and inserted into the slotted die cast unsprung frame and simple stamped main 
and drive rods were applied. This kit first advertised in 1950. The kit did not 
contain valve gear when first marketed but a separate kit was made available in 
1953. Varney include a Pittman DC-60 motor as well as a scale 32' die cast 
tender
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                    Page 58   
2551 4-6-0 Casey Jones Factory Assembled   When Varney began to market 
RTR train sets in 1956 they produced an assembled version with no valve gear but 
included a tender.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                    Page 58   
2800K 4-6-0 Casey Jones Kit   In 1960 the trend was toward easily 
assembled kits and Varney produced the pre painted , unassembled " Screw Driver 
Series locomotives These had separate details NOT cast on. Bell, Whistle, 
pop-off were added and made from brass. The valve gear was included. For the 
first two years the Pittman DC-60 motor was used but in 1962 the Japanese KM-1 
was substituted. It had a plastic 32' Scale tender.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                    Page 
58    600  Casey Jones, Factory assembled was reintroduced 
with all the detail found in the 2800K
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                 So there were two distinct Varney runs 
(one with all parts cast on boiler and one that had separate brass details 
) and two tenders (plastic and die cast 32' tenders used), some had valve 
gear others not, two different motors were used. It all depended on which 
version you have. The bad part was that anything described could be exchanged 
and used that I'm sure there are "HYBRIDS" out there that don't match these 
descriptions.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                     The Bowser 
production not in this narrative. Some one has already mentioned those changes 
and NOT being able to switch all parts. You can see that the Varney narrative 
for their Casey Jones is not easy to explain.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Good luck with your search.  If for any reason you would want pictures 
I can send the two basic Varney versions, not the Bowser. Hope my one finger 
typing made no mistakes as tried to copy info out of a book
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:41 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Casey Jones 
  (4-6-0) production question
                                                                                                                                                                              
  

                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  

                                                                                                                                                                              >Hi:

                                                                                                                                                                              I'm still watching for a Varney Casey Jones as it was my 
  first HO 
                                                                                                                                                                              locomotive many years ago.

                                                                                                                                                                              Through the entire production 
  run of that locomotive, were there 
                                                                                                                                                                              later production short-cuts, or, 
  "cheapening, " of the product? Or, 
                                                                                                                                                                              asked in a different manner, if I 
  bought one from an early production 
                                                                                                                                                                              run, would I see any difference in a 
  very late production run?

                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                              Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                              Odessa/Ritzville, 
  WA

                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9345
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Mantua Big Six
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                              


 
 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Here
is an in process shot of a Mantua 
0-6-0 drive I am working on.
                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                              John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                              Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                              Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                              

 


                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9346
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: A-C Model Company -- L-W Model Company
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Chuck (Higdon), As you've seen, the name L-W models has come up in recent posts.  Thought I'd list this manufacturer hoping maybe you could do another spread sheet for the files, as you've done with the other stuff I sent you.  They don't have a hugh list of kits, so it should be fairly easy -- yet we should probably include them now as many hobbyists aren't quite sure of all (or just what) they made.  I won't indicate the car colors as that would involve my digging them out of the collection, would is always a monumental feat.  I'll include the few car side numbers of what I've receorded, but never got around to jooting them all down.  It should be noted that A-C Model Company started out in the 1930's and was taken over by L-W Model Company in 1955, as I posted here back last September.  All the kits were continued, but changed catalog numbers under L-W.  Where applicable (or where I have them), I'll include both catalog numbers using A-C's numbers first.  As this is mainly an A-C listing, I won't be including all the L-W catalog numbers.  
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
                     A-C Model Company
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
40 and 50 Ft. Flat Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
FM-1  50' Flat Undecorated
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
FD-2  50' Depressed Center
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
FD-3  40' Depressed Center
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
FM-5  Flat, Southern 51000
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
FM-6  Flat ERIE, 7500
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
FM-7  Flat PRR, 470132
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Box Car 40' Wood Sheathed:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
XM-1  Northern Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
XM-2  Chicago & Eastern Illinois  510
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
XM-3  Wabash
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
XM-4  Undec.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
XM-5  SL-SF (Frisco)
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
50 Ton ARR Box Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
XM-10 Northern Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
XM-12  Undec.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
XM-13 Western Maryland 27141
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
XM-20 Soo Line
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
40' Automobile Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
XAB-1 Illinois Terminal
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
XAB-2 Undec.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
XAB-3 Southern
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
XAB-10 St. Louis Southwestern
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Refrigerator Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
RS-1  52' PFE Pacific Fruit Express
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
RS-2  40' NADX North American Despatch 12915
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
RS-3  40' WP Western Pacific 51847
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
RB-1  40' SLRX 3354
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Pulpwood Car:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
LPA-1  Kansas City Southern 24000
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
LPA-18 Louisiana & Arkansas
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Wood Gondola:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
GB-1  NYNH&H
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
GB-5  PRR 274836
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
GB-7  MONON (CIL)
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
GB-8  MKT 470025
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Wheel Gondola:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
GB-4  Chesapeake & Ohio
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Vinegar and Pickle Tank Car:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
TW-1  FTCX -- 6 numbers
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
TW-2  Ma Brown's Pickles
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
TW-3  Budlong Pickles
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
TW-4  Monarch Pickles 3830
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
TW-7  Lutz & Schramm Pickles
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
TW-8  Harbauer Pickles
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
TW-15 Libby's Pickles 1362
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Work Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
MWX-1  Supply Car
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
MWX-2  Bunk Car
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
MWX-3  Mess Car
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
MWX-4  Kitchen Car
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
MWX-5  Foreman & Comm. Car
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
MWX-6  Boom Car C&NI 79413
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Caboose:  
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
CB-1  Transfer & Switching
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
CB-2  Standard 8-Wheel Caboose
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
CB-3  Bay Window Caboose C&NI
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
CB-4  Combination (Passenger - Baggage) Caboose
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
That's it Chuck!  I know I'm missing some, but can't fill those in as my A-C catalogs do not show them all.  Many thanks again,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9347
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              My apologies, Rick -- I did read that you posted it when I first read it, but misread who posted it just now as I was going through them again as I was in a hurry.  My bad.  Best,  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Don,  The Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff coke car that Jay W. found in the
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Walthers 1993 catalog...
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>     Uhmmm...Not to pick too much of a nit, but it was me that found the 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> kit in the Walthers catalog and pointed it out to the original poster.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> "You're the disease. I'm the cure."
                                                                                                                                                                              
>     -Cobra, "Cobra"
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9348
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question-JimH,et.al.
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              
 
Thanks, Jim:
                                                                                                                                                                              
To re-state somewhat, I've had no experience with the Varney Casey Jones
since I had one as a youngster.  I had saved up to buy one about
1956 or 1957.  I was 14.  I don't know what ever happened to
it, probably gave it away in later years.  I know it had cast on
details and an open frame motor that was troublesome.  I still have
my Varney catalog, red cover, 1955 edition.

                                                                                                                                                                              
Now I'd just like to have one like I had back then.  An openly
admitted return to childhood memories and I'm not bashful about stating
that.  It has occurred to me to try to find one ala-1956/7, and one
of the recently produced Bowser versions just to demonstrate to myself
the lifespan of that model.  Only the former is important. 


                                                                                                                                                                              
I see them on ebay in sometimes terrible condition, still demanding
noticeable money.  Hard to judge what one is getting that way, and a
gamble unless the price is low.  I still have a good photo of my
original Varney....it would be nice to have one again.  How well it
runs is not that important.  Cracking Zamac, etc., IS
important.

                                                                                                                                                                              
Thanks again;  I'm learning more what to look for as I go
along.

                                                                                                                                                                              
Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                              
Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state

                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              
At 02:40 PM 4/2/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                              
    Even though others have responded I thought I would
add to the Varney "Casey Jones"story. I am going to copy a lot
of this right out of "Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains" by
John David Spangel. I don't want to make any mistakes just relying on my
knowledge. Here goes with my one finger typing.
                                                                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
      Page 57   2450K
4-6-0 Casey Jones kit. This engine had a lightweight cast Zamac boiler.
Most detail was cast in place (air pumps, air tanks, power reverse,
whistle  and pop off valves. 63" scale drivers were pressed
onto the axles and inserted into the slotted die cast unsprung frame and
simple stamped main and drive rods were applied. This kit first
advertised in 1950. The kit did not contain valve gear when first
marketed but a separate kit was made available in 1953. Varney include a
Pittman DC-60 motor as well as a scale 32' die cast tender
                                                                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
      Page 58   2551
4-6-0 Casey Jones Factory Assembled   When Varney began to
market RTR train sets in 1956 they produced an assembled version with no
valve gear but included a tender.
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
      Page 58   2800K 4-6-0 Casey
Jones Kit   In 1960 the trend was toward easily assembled kits
and Varney produced the pre painted , unassembled " Screw Driver
Series locomotives These had separate details NOT cast on. Bell, Whistle,
pop-off were added and made from brass. The valve gear was included. For
the first two years the Pittman DC-60 motor was used but in 1962 the
Japanese KM-1 was substituted. It had a plastic 32' Scale tender.
                                                                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
      Page 58   
600  Casey Jones, Factory assembled was reintroduced with all the
detail found in the 2800K
                                                                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
   So there were two distinct Varney runs (one
with all parts cast on boiler and one that had separate brass details )
and two tenders (plastic and die cast 32' tenders used), some had valve
gear others not, two different motors were used. It all depended on which
version you have. The bad part was that anything described could be
exchanged and used that I'm sure there are "HYBRIDS" out there
that don't match these descriptions.
                                                                                                                                                                              
       The Bowser production not in this
narrative. Some one has already mentioned those changes and NOT being
able to switch all parts. You can see that the Varney narrative for their
Casey Jones is not easy to explain.
                                                                                                                                                                              
                             
Good luck with your search.  If for any reason you would want
pictures I can send the two basic Varney versions, not the Bowser. Hope
my one finger typing made no mistakes as tried to copy info out of a
book
                                                                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9349
						From: Bill Fornshell
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Mike,
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
I was just able to download the file you posted.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
I was off on which magazine had that article.  It seems to have been the MR - Aug 1951. No matter that one is missing from my collection also. 
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
I like the way he did the materials list and I think I will try and make one or more of the Freight Cars in the article starting with the Flat Car.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Thanks Mike.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               --- On Thu, 4/2/09, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
> From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New file uploaded to vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                              
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 6:04 AM
                                                                                                                                                                              
> I've posted the five pages I have of the 1954 Bill Rau
                                                                                                                                                                              
> article,  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Building Old Time Cars, in the groups files section.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Sorry about this being scans of late 60's photocopies
                                                                                                                                                                              
> done in the  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> local library. The quality of the images would be a lot
                                                                                                                                                                              
> better with  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> todays scanners compared to the old 60's photocopiers.	
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> On Apr 2, 2009, at 5:37 AM, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                              
> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > This email message is a notification to let you know
                                                                                                                                                                              
> that
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
                                                                                                                                                                              
> vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > group.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >   File        : /Bill Rau TOC article/page1.gif
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >   Uploaded by : mwbauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >   Description : Building Old Time Cars, TOC, 1954
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/Bill%20Rau%20TOC%
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 20article/page1.gif
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > To learn more about file sharing for your group,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> please visit:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > index.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > mwbauers 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9350
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Rick, and All;
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Yes, you found it which gave me the clue to find the link to Huff 'N Puff's  current page.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Don,  The Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff coke car that Jay W. found in the
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Walthers 1993 catalog...
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>     Uhmmm...Not to pick too much of a nit, but it was me that found the 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> kit in the Walthers catalog and pointed it out to the original poster.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> "You're the disease. I'm the cure."
                                                                                                                                                                              
>     -Cobra, "Cobra"
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9351
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                              Regarding the "lack of valve gear" of older loco 
kits--Back then we were conditioned that all steam locos should have Walschaerts 
valve gear--the model was not complete without it.  Occasionally this was 
not the case.  Some locos, many on the Southern Pacific system--had 
Stephenson gear, which was only manifested by a small bell crank near the 
drivers, and a valve rod into the valve chest on the cylinders.  MDC's 
0-6-0 switcher was one, the Varney "Casey Jones" was another--it was very close 
to several SP 4-6-0's, even though it had a rectangular coal 
tender.    gj
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 2:40 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Casey 
  Jones (4-6-0) production question
                                                                                                                                                                              
  

                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Even though others have 
  responded I thought I would add to the Varney "Casey Jones"story. I am going 
  to copy a lot of this right out of "Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains" 
  by John David Spangel. I don't want to make any mistakes just relying on 
  my knowledge. Here goes with my one finger typing.
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9352
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question-JimH-photo...
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              
 
Jim:

                                                                                                                                                                              
If it is not too much trouble, I'd love to see your two photos of those
two Varney 4-6-0 versions.

                                                                                                                                                                              
Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                              
Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              
At 02:40 PM 4/2/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                              
    Even though others have responded I thought I would
add to the Varney "Casey Jones"story. I am going to copy a lot
of this right out of "Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains" by
John David Spangel. I don't want to make any mistakes just relying on my
knowledge. Here goes with my one finger typing.
                                                                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
      Page 57   2450K
4-6-0 Casey Jones kit. This engine had a lightweight cast Zamac boiler.
Most detail was cast in place (air pumps, air tanks, power reverse,
whistle  and pop off valves. 63" scale drivers were pressed
onto the axles and inserted into the slotted die cast unsprung frame and
simple stamped main and drive rods were applied. This kit first
advertised in 1950. The kit did not contain valve gear when first
marketed but a separate kit was made available in 1953. Varney include a
Pittman DC-60 motor as well as a scale 32' die cast tender
                                                                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
      Page 58   2551
4-6-0 Casey Jones Factory Assembled   When Varney began to
market RTR train sets in 1956 they produced an assembled version with no
valve gear but included a tender.
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
      Page 58   2800K 4-6-0 Casey
Jones Kit   In 1960 the trend was toward easily assembled kits
and Varney produced the pre painted , unassembled " Screw Driver
Series locomotives These had separate details NOT cast on. Bell, Whistle,
pop-off were added and made from brass. The valve gear was included. For
the first two years the Pittman DC-60 motor was used but in 1962 the
Japanese KM-1 was substituted. It had a plastic 32' Scale tender.
                                                                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
      Page 58   
600  Casey Jones, Factory assembled was reintroduced with all the
detail found in the 2800K
                                                                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
   So there were two distinct Varney runs (one
with all parts cast on boiler and one that had separate brass details )
and two tenders (plastic and die cast 32' tenders used), some had valve
gear others not, two different motors were used. It all depended on which
version you have. The bad part was that anything described could be
exchanged and used that I'm sure there are "HYBRIDS" out there
that don't match these descriptions.
                                                                                                                                                                              
       The Bowser production not in this
narrative. Some one has already mentioned those changes and NOT being
able to switch all parts. You can see that the Varney narrative for their
Casey Jones is not easy to explain.
                                                                                                                                                                              
                             
Good luck with your search.  If for any reason you would want
pictures I can send the two basic Varney versions, not the Bowser. Hope
my one finger typing made no mistakes as tried to copy info out of a
book
                                                                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9353
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Layout ballast
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                              The ballast looks good on the layout.
                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                              
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:23
PM
                                                                                                                                                                              
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                              
Subject: [vintageHO] Bathgate
Passenger Car
                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Walter B,
                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                                    These are pictures of a
Bathgate passenger car (coach I assume) that you asked me to send. Don't know
much about them. A very good close friend from
 California , who knows I collect vintage
passenger cars too ( I have over 400 ), sent this along with two other
cars. One is Megow, one is Van or Van's Hobbies and this Bathgate car. I have
no reason not to believe him as he knows a lot more then me.
                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                                 This car has wood floor, roof, ends and
underneath detail. The sides are plastic, much like Varney celluloid passenger
cars sides, but a lot flimsier. I sent pictures of the trucks as I have no idea
who made them or if  they were made and sold by Bathgate.
                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Anyone out there know ? Hope you enjoy. This car needs
some work. Needs handrails put on but must add some support under the sides
where the steps are first. No box or paperwork.
                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                               


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9354
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production  question-JimH-photo...
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                        I will gladly send 
you the pictures. Question  If I send them through to the group as an 
attachment do you get to see them? I'm not sure how you are set to receive your 
group Emails.  If not I would need your personal Email address to send the 
pictures direct to you. Let me know which way best and I will send tonight or 
tomorrow.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H     jimheck@... 
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 7:49 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Casey 
  Jones (4-6-0) production question-JimH-photo...
                                                                                                                                                                              
  

                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim:

                                                                                                                                                                              If it is not too much trouble, I'd love to see your two photos 
  of those two Varney 4-6-0 versions.

                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                              Dennis



                                                                                                                                                                              At 
  02:40 PM 4/2/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                  Even though others have responded I 
    thought I would add to the Varney "Casey Jones"story. I am going to copy a 
    lot of this right out of "Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains" by John David 
    Spangel. I don't want to make any mistakes just relying on my knowledge. 
    Here goes with my one finger typing.
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                    Page 57   2450K 4-6-0 Casey 
    Jones kit. This engine had a lightweight cast Zamac boiler. Most detail was 
    cast in place (air pumps, air tanks, power reverse, whistle  and pop 
    off valves. 63" scale drivers were pressed onto the axles and inserted into 
    the slotted die cast unsprung frame and simple stamped main and drive rods 
    were applied. This kit first advertised in 1950. The kit did not contain 
    valve gear when first marketed but a separate kit was made available in 
    1953. Varney include a Pittman DC-60 motor as well as a scale 32' die cast 
    tender
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                    Page 
    58   2551 4-6-0 Casey Jones Factory Assembled   When 
    Varney began to market RTR train sets in 1956 they produced an assembled 
    version with no valve gear but included a tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Page 58   2800K 4-6-0 Casey 
    Jones Kit   In 1960 the trend was toward easily assembled kits and 
    Varney produced the pre painted , unassembled " Screw Driver Series 
    locomotives These had separate details NOT cast on. Bell, Whistle, pop-off 
    were added and made from brass. The valve gear was included. For the first 
    two years the Pittman DC-60 motor was used but in 1962 the Japanese KM-1 was 
    substituted. It had a plastic 32' Scale tender.
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                    Page 58    600  
    Casey Jones, Factory assembled was reintroduced with all the detail found in 
    the 2800K
                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                 So there were two 
    distinct Varney runs (one with all parts cast on boiler and one that had 
    separate brass details ) and two tenders (plastic and die cast 32' tenders 
    used), some had valve gear others not, two different motors were used. It 
    all depended on which version you have. The bad part was that anything 
    described could be exchanged and used that I'm sure there are "HYBRIDS" out 
    there that don't match these 
    descriptions.
                                                                                                                                                                                     The Bowser production 
    not in this narrative. Some one has already mentioned those changes and NOT 
    being able to switch all parts. You can see that the Varney narrative for 
    their Casey Jones is not easy to 
    explain.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            
    Good luck with your search.  If for any reason you would want pictures 
    I can send the two basic Varney versions, not the Bowser. Hope my one finger 
    typing made no mistakes as tried to copy info out of a 
    book
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9355
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              


  

 
The first locos had a Pittman DC60 motor and ran well.  The Japanese
motors never ran well in my experience.  That and the plastic tender
were the major changes.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                              
=================================================
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
curmudgeon wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Ah, yes.
                                                                                                                                                                              
That Japanese motor looked kinda like a Pittman, but had too much
plastic on it, and none I ever had ran any good.
                                                                                                                                                                              
Personal experience?
                                                                                                                                                                              
Zamac Rot seemed to be more prevalent in those later ones with plastic
tender shells and Japanese motors.
                                                                                                                                                                              
I just recently pitched the tender floor from a Varney "Old Lady" 2-8-0
that had grown in length about 1/8" and was split all over.
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> As I recall, the first runs had blackened castings, and I believe,
valve gear included. Later runs didn't include the valve gear and had a
plastic superstructure casting for the tender. I also recall that the
later runs had a Japanese motor.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > I'm still watching for a Varney Casey Jones as it was my
first HO 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > locomotive many years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Through the entire production run of that locomotive, were
there 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > later production short-cuts, or, "cheapening, " of the
product? Or, 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > asked in a different manner, if I bought one from an early
production 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > run, would I see any difference in a very late production run?
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Odessa/Ritzville, WA
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
 
                                                                                                                                                                              
 

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9356
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Layout ballast
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                              Chuck,
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                     As soon 
as get free time I will take an overview of the 90% completed ballasted 
track. I'm happy with it. Got 4 switches done, two that are remote. I hate doing 
them and must take care not to screw up.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                     I really feel 
bad that it might have looked like I was cutting you out. That wasn't the case. 
I just got sick and tired of people, who wanted to see the photos, telling me 
how they wanted to view them. If you go over back Emails on the site you will 
see this. I also belong to another site Yardbird Trains where I went through the 
same thing. I was even cc specially to some who still wanted me to put them in 
an album to satisfy them. I finally said %^*#@*&. Then when even Don D 
(nicely) ask me to learn to do it and put in albums I went over the top. You 
want to see them sent your settings to see them.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                      I 
honestly thought no one would want to do it and then I could just say since I 
can't get anyone I'll do the best I can. Later that Lennard is calling me from 
Texas at 9:30 to "talk".Maybe he wants money to do it and I'll say Good 
Evening.       
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 7:48 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Layout 
  ballast
                                                                                                                                                                              
  

                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Hi 
  Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                               
  
                                                                                                                                                                              The ballast looks 
  good on the layout.
                                                                                                                                                                               
  
                                                                                                                                                                               
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at 
  http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                               
  
                                                                                                                                                                               
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:23 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Bathgate Passenger 
  Car
                                                                                                                                                                               
  
                                                                                                                                                                               
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Walter 
  B,
                                                                                                                                                                               
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  These are pictures of a Bathgate passenger car (coach I assume) that you 
  asked me to send. Don't know much about them. A very good close friend from 
  California , who knows I collect vintage passenger 
  cars too ( I have over 400 ), sent this along with two other cars. One is 
  Megow, one is Van or Van's Hobbies and this Bathgate car. I have no reason not 
  to believe him as he knows a lot more then me.
                                                                                                                                                                               
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                 This car has wood 
  floor, roof, ends and underneath detail. The sides are plastic, much like 
  Varney celluloid passenger cars sides, but a lot flimsier. I sent pictures of 
  the trucks as I have no idea who made them or if  they were made and sold 
  by Bathgate.
                                                                                                                                                                               
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Anyone out there know ? Hope 
  you enjoy. This car needs some work. Needs handrails put on but must add some 
  support under the sides where the steps are first. No box or 
  paperwork.
                                                                                                                                                                               
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
  Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                               
  
                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9357
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: A-C Model Company -- L-W Model Company
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Ray W., All,
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
I have one boxed complete AC kit not on your list yet, CB-5 Side Door caboose, St.LSF prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
I have also noted that at least some AC kits were upgraded to wood sides by AC.  Or did L-W sell upgraded wood side work cars in old AC boxes during the transition?  MWX-4 Kitchen car is the partially assembled wood sided kit in the AC box that I have and not yet tackled.  
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
As soon as that camera arrives and I learn how to shoot and upload, will also post a well-assembled TW-1 Vinegar Car I found last year on a "junk" table.  That is an impressive model and fairly close in quality to the later Ambroid/Northeastern ones.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Hi Chuck (Higdon), As you've seen, the name L-W models has come up in recent posts.  Thought I'd list this manufacturer hoping maybe you could do another spread sheet for the files, as you've done with the other stuff I sent you.  They don't have a hugh list of kits, so it should be fairly easy -- yet we should probably include them now as many hobbyists aren't quite sure of all (or just what) they made.  I won't indicate the car colors as that would involve my digging them out of the collection, would is always a monumental feat.  I'll include the few car side numbers of what I've receorded, but never got around to jooting them all down.  It should be noted that A-C Model Company started out in the 1930's and was taken over by L-W Model Company in 1955, as I posted here back last September.  All the kits were continued, but changed catalog numbers under L-W.  Where applicable (or where I have them), I'll include both catalog numbers using A-C's numbers first.  As this is mainly an A-C listing, I won't be including all the L-W catalog numbers.  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>                      A-C Model Company
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 40 and 50 Ft. Flat Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> FM-1  50' Flat Undecorated
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> FD-2  50' Depressed Center
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> FD-3  40' Depressed Center
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> FM-5  Flat, Southern 51000
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> FM-6  Flat ERIE, 7500
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> FM-7  Flat PRR, 470132
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Box Car 40' Wood Sheathed:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> XM-1  Northern Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> XM-2  Chicago & Eastern Illinois  510
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> XM-3  Wabash
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> XM-4  Undec.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> XM-5  SL-SF (Frisco)
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 50 Ton ARR Box Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> XM-10 Northern Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> XM-12  Undec.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> XM-13 Western Maryland 27141
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> XM-20 Soo Line
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 40' Automobile Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> XAB-1 Illinois Terminal
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> XAB-2 Undec.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> XAB-3 Southern
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> XAB-10 St. Louis Southwestern
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Refrigerator Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> RS-1  52' PFE Pacific Fruit Express
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> RS-2  40' NADX North American Despatch 12915
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> RS-3  40' WP Western Pacific 51847
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> RB-1  40' SLRX 3354
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Pulpwood Car:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> LPA-1  Kansas City Southern 24000
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> LPA-18 Louisiana & Arkansas
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Wood Gondola:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> GB-1  NYNH&H
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> GB-5  PRR 274836
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> GB-7  MONON (CIL)
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> GB-8  MKT 470025
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Wheel Gondola:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> GB-4  Chesapeake & Ohio
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Vinegar and Pickle Tank Car:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> TW-1  FTCX -- 6 numbers
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> TW-2  Ma Brown's Pickles
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> TW-3  Budlong Pickles
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> TW-4  Monarch Pickles 3830
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> TW-7  Lutz & Schramm Pickles
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> TW-8  Harbauer Pickles
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> TW-15 Libby's Pickles 1362
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Work Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> MWX-1  Supply Car
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> MWX-2  Bunk Car
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> MWX-3  Mess Car
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> MWX-4  Kitchen Car
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> MWX-5  Foreman & Comm. Car
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> MWX-6  Boom Car C&NI 79413
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Caboose:  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> CB-1  Transfer & Switching
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> CB-2  Standard 8-Wheel Caboose
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> CB-3  Bay Window Caboose C&NI
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> CB-4  Combination (Passenger - Baggage) Caboose
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> That's it Chuck!  I know I'm missing some, but can't fill those in as my A-C catalogs do not show them all.  Many thanks again,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9358
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Thank you Bill,
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
I have long wanted to build those  cars.........  Ya know ???
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
I think I've waited long enough to get going on them. I'd better start  
                                                                                                                                                                              
on them.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
8^)
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                              
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                              
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               On Apr 2, 2009, at 6:37 PM, Bill Fornshell wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Hi Mike,
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> I was just able to download the file you posted.
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> I was off on which magazine had that article.  It seems to have been  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> the MR - Aug 1951. No matter that one is missing from my collection  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> also.
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> I like the way he did the materials list and I think I will try and  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> make one or more of the Freight Cars in the article starting with  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> the Flat Car.
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Thanks Mike.
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> --- On Thu, 4/2/09, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
>>
                                                                                                                                                                              
>> Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 6:04 AM
                                                                                                                                                                              
>> I've posted the five pages I have of the 1954 Bill Rau
                                                                                                                                                                              
>> article,
                                                                                                                                                                              
>> Building Old Time Cars, in the groups files section.
                                                                                                                                                                              
>>
                                                                                                                                                                              
>> Sorry about this being scans of late 60's photocopies
                                                                                                                                                                              
>> done in the
                                                                                                                                                                              
>> local library. The quality of the images would be a lot
                                                                                                                                                                              
>> better with
                                                                                                                                                                              
>> todays scanners compared to the old 60's photocopiers.	
                                                                                                                                                                              
>>> 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9359
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Picard Kit Cars, "Something to write home about..."
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Ray W,
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
I guess the reason I posted my criteria for information sources was simply that I keyed off of the reference to "Ma Webster's" catalog and being very new here, was just identifying my method developed after much trial and tribulation!  Seems we are very similar in our approaches.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
As to Picard catalogs, there is one that has been photographed here in one of the photo albums, but not quite clear enough for me to read, so your list comes in handy.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
And of course, you were right on with the 1:1 model Observation Car end office my dad built for MRE Corp in their first location on the second floor!  He also built their long time sales counters which were formed like passenger cars.  As soon as I can scan (software problem), the three original circa 1940 photos I have, I will include the photos in an album with the interesting story here.  The photos are important, as there is some vintage HO showing, and that will enable me to stay "on topic" and keep all happy!
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Hi Jay W., My pleasure in supplying the info, if it will help you.  I too try to be as careful as I can in using various sources to gather information on our vintage manufacturers, realizing at times some of those sources may not be completely accurate.  It's for this same reason that I too first prefer using the information from unbuilt kits as an initial source -- just as you seem to prefer.  This was one of my main sources of information when I supplied same to Dave Spanagel in assisting with his Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains and to Dallas Mallerich when assisting him with his Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains, as there's nothing like having the physical confirmation of this info in your hands as positive evidence.  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Your going to manufacturers' catalogs as the second source is the same direction that I head in when not actually having a piece in the collection, even though there have been times when a manufacturer included an intended new engine or rolling stock kit for that year, which never materialized -- but I feel if they don't know what they produced, surely no one else would.  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> My third source of information is manufacturers' ads in back issues of MR and RMC -- I have near-complete collections of both magazines going back to Vol.1 No.1 - Jan., 1934 (for MR) and Sept., 1939 (for RMC) -- not quite as complete -- but as I'm sure you're aware, this can be tedious and time consuming.  My last sources, but still usually fairly reliable, are the general catalogs such as Walthers and Model Railroad Equipment Corp. (and others) which I make every effort to cross-reference to ensure accuracy -- when available.  I'm not quite sure of your purpose in pointing out your references sources; mine seem similar, even if there may be differences in the order of them, but the general sequence of sources for this information that we've pointed out would seem to be logical for any of us here.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> In the case of these Picard cars, I'm using a number of mine from my collection, but as for literature on this manufacturer this is one of very few that I don't have a catalog of, so you've got to use some source if you want to find any info on such a manufacturer even if it's my fourth choice as far as my order of preference.  In this case, Carmen Webster's info coincided with what I have in my collection of this manufacturer so I felt it reliable enough to use.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> I would enjoy hearing of your father's building of 1:1 scale (did he kitbash it? -- LOL), even though it's not H0.  You haven't mentioned if this piece of equipment was an engine or freight/passenger car (or part of), but I might guess you may be referring to the replica of the rear portion of the NYC's Commodore Vanderbilt obs. that was used as Model R.R. Equipment Corp's general office, although I could well be mistaken.  Best regards,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Hi Ray W.,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Thanks for the detailed Picard information. It certainly helps to identify some of those "mystery" box cars that show up occasionally, where sometimes a model builder may have added their own thin wood or card sides, (sometimes even hand scribed), and decals to those later open side versions.  With that in mind, will take another look at those mystery items I have and also be more able to sort out those Picard wood parts. I have read the Bessey name, but not Simons.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > I've always been careful in using the Model Railroad Equipment Company Catalogs issued by Carmen Webster for anthing more than a general information source and not on last years or the final word on model materials, as she often carried items in stock long after manufacture ceased.  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > While some MRE information is very accurate, in other cases, instead of simply re-publishing manufacturer's catalog information, they dissected it, re-combined it and substituted their own numbering system which often does not leave much original information for the model historian or collector to go on. Plus I have found them completely wrong when describing the nature of some kit materials (which first became evident to me when reviewing their Red Ball listings and comparing it to my almost complete R.B. paper collection and very extensive R.B. model collection), but then found descrepancies in other descriptions as well, which was frustrating to find.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > I try to use unbuilt kits as the best source of information (of course not always available), followed by manufacturers catalogs and ads, then the model magazine reviews and reports, then last, the general catalogs of distributors and major dealers like Webster.  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Even manufacturers often used out of date photos in their catalogs, Red Ball & Walthers, or even substituted O scale photos for some HO models like Walthers. And sometimes advertised items never saw production, either.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > The fact that I often don't often refer to Carmen Webser's catalog is somewhat ironic in that she included a photograph of the largest scale model that my father ever built right on the cover (1:1 scale)!  I will tell the story of that sometime, while not an HO story, but certainly vintage modeling!
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > With an interest here in some of the more obscure rolling stock, I thought I'd mention some of the other cars kits Picard made.  Pre-War and up until 1942, they offered complete (sides included) car kits, although the sides included with them were not lettered, nor painted, but were to use any set of a numerous listing of transfers (decals) offered.  The bodies were white pine blocks, similar to Megow; these came in five lengths: No. X-114 36' block @ 10 cents, No. X-107 40' block @ 10 c, No. X-122 41' @ 10 c, No. 123 42' block @ 10 c and No. X-121 50' block @ 12 1/2 c -- Can't figure how you'd pay for that without being charged 13 cents, unless you bought two for 25 cents.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > The box car kits came with plain sides and overhanging roof, in 36', 40' 42' and 50'.  Then, they also came with plain sides and a receding roof for modern AAR type double-sheathed 41' box cars.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > The reefers (and "Old-Time" box cars) came with scribed sides and ends in 36', 40' and 42' lengths.  The 41' Wagon-Top box cars came with a rounded roof, eaves even with car sides.  The 41' Round-Roof box cars came with the roof set back, or receded from the car sides.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > It was after the War that Picard kits came as "Body-Kits" only, without sides -- which needed to be added to the kit from such manufacturers as Champion or Red Ball (besides also including scribed sides and ends in two series of body kits) -- and yes, Champion made car sides only, they never produced whole kits.  My catalogs (Model Railroad Equipment Company -- Carmen Webster) containing Picard go up until 1950; by 1953, there's no trace of Picard.  During this time they produced 36', 40', 41' 42' and 50' body kits with overhanging roof, 36', 40', 41', 42' and 50' body with receded roof, 40', 41' and 50' Wagon Top body with receded roof, 40', 41' and 50' Wagon Top body with flush roof, 36' 40' 41' and 42' body with scribed sides and overhanging roof and 36', 40', 41' and 42' body with scribed sides and receded roof.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > At this same time, there were other manufacturers who also made just car body kits -- sides to be added.  E.H. Bessey was one of these manufacturers, producing a (G-1) 41' 6" Mill Gondola, a (G-2) Great Northern express reefer and an (G-3) Old Time SP wood box car, as shown in 1950.  Starting in 1953, a company known as F.A. Simons produced a series of 9 body kits; two straight-side gondolas (one 45' 6" and one 50' 6"), one 67' 6" mill gondola, a 50' plain floor flat car, a 50' blank floor flat car, a 1-dome tank car, a 2-dome tank car, a 3-dome tank car and a 44' boom car.  Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > I did find your Picard album interesting.  Your recently assembled gray car is the same covered hopper that I still have as a kit; I believe it is based on a profile of a PPR prototype, even if all the side framing is a bit different than the prototype.  A while back, I was completely mystified as to who Picard Novelty Co. was (OO? O?) and where they fit into HO.  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > Besides their open and covered hopper complete kits, their low cost kits box car and reefer core kits allowed modelers on a budget to purchase a higher priced line's sides alone, like Red Ball, or lines like Champions that I understand sold only sides, then add them to the Picard body shell.  Recently, I acquired a couple of small lots which had about 4 or 5 Picard 36' and 40' boxcar core kits in it with remains of their paper tape wrapper bands, (all mixed up in a ziplock bag with Varney parts!) Going to have fun with those and some of my extra printed sides!
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > >If you go to the group photo page and go to about the second last >page of albums you'll find my Picard album (I put a "z" in front of >the name of all my albums so the other members all could come >first)  You may find it interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > Don
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > don.dellmann@
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > The Picard Hopper is simply a nicely constructed example decaled for DT&I. 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > Also found in the small group was a Picard covered hopper lettered for 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > General Electric, but no photo yet.  I have previously found an 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > unassembled Picard covered hopper kit with instructons, which  bear the 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > slogan, "Something to write home about!"  > > Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9360
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: apology
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                  I must apologize for blowing off 
some steam tonight. I vented and I should not have. I was just so frustrated 
about trying to please everyone and share pictures along with info. 

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                    Starting tonight 
Lennard Stewart, a member,  will be receiving all my post for the group 
with pictures. He will then make them available to those that didn't receive 
them when I sent as attachments. He will post them as new photos and create 
albums so they will be permanently available. He will have complete control of 
these albums and the ability to add, delete and modify. All will have to do is 
take the pictures and send them to him.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9361
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: apology
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Speaking for the group..........

                                                                                                                                                                              I say don't worry about it!!!

                                                                                                                                                                              Trust me, we each and all know just how frustrating a machine can be when it refuses to do the job we want it to.

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                              Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                              Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                              On Apr 2, 2009, at 9:46 PM, jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                  I must apologize for blowing off some steam tonight. I vented and I should not have. I was just so frustrated about trying to please everyone and share pictures along with info.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Starting tonight Lennard Stewart, a member,  will be receiving all my post for the group with pictures. He will then make them available to those that didn't receive them when I sent as attachments. He will post them as new photos and create albums so they will be permanently available. He will have complete control of these albums and the ability to add, delete and modify. All will have to do is take the pictures and send them to him.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9362
						From: jerrygart5
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question-Jerry, and?
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Thanks, Jerry.  I wonder if the Bowser produced Varney's still 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> carried the, "Varney," cast-in name on the casting?
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
 
                                                                                                                                                                              Yes, they did.   In fact, I ordered a couple of lead trucks for the 2-8-0 last year, and they still had "Varney" on them.
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9363
						From: Fred Hultberg
						Date: 4/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: apology
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Jim, I agree with Mike.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              I think you're being too hard on yourself.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              Lighten up, friend!
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              p.s. Computers in particular are designed to have minds of their own. It isn't only vintage locos...

                                                                                                                                                                               --- On Thu, 4/2/09, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] apology
                                                                                                                                                                              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                              Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 10:51 PM

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

Speaking for the group..........


                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              I say don't worry about it!!!
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              Trust me, we each and all know just how frustrating a machine can be when it refuses to do the job we want it to.
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              On Apr 2, 2009, at 9:46 PM, jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                  I must apologize for blowing off some steam tonight. I vented and I should not have. I was just so frustrated about trying to please everyone and share pictures along with info.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                    Starting tonight Lennard Stewart, a member,  will be receiving all my post for the group with pictures. He will then make them available to those that didn't receive them when I sent as attachments. He will post them as new photos and create albums so they will be permanently available. He will have complete control of these albums and the ability to add, delete and modify. All will have to do is take the pictures and send them to him.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Jim H


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              




                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9364
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: apology
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              No apology is required.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Don
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                              
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                              
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                              
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 9:46 PM
                                                                                                                                                                              
Subject: [vintageHO] apology
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
    I must apologize for blowing off some steam tonight. I vented and I 
                                                                                                                                                                              
should not have. I was just so frustrated about trying to please everyone 
                                                                                                                                                                              
and share pictures along with info.
                                                                                                                                                                              
      Starting tonight Lennard Stewart, a member,  will be receiving all my 
                                                                                                                                                                              
post for the group with pictures. He will then make them available to those 
                                                                                                                                                                              
that didn't receive them when I sent as attachments. He will post them as 
                                                                                                                                                                              
new photos and create albums so they will be permanently available. He will 
                                                                                                                                                                              
have complete control of these albums and the ability to add, delete and 
                                                                                                                                                                              
modify. All will have to do is take the pictures and send them to him.
                                                                                                                                                                              
                                                           Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9365
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: A-C Model Company -- L-W Model Company
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Jay (W.), Great! -- THAT'S the kind of additional input we need here, to help complete these listings.  Keep these additions coming for all the empty spaces we need to fill in (on all manufacturers) so that we can know all that they made.  Always good to have unbuilt kits as you can't get any more closer to what was actually produced, unless you were right their at the factory.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
I don't think very many of us have complete rolling stock collections of any manufacturer, unless they had a very limited selection of offerings.  I know I don't, but we keep trying to complete them and this input helps find them (or at least makes us aware of what to look for); many thanks Jay.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
I would have to go back into that part (A-C -- L-W) of my collection to verify whether A-C had wood sided kits -- I don't know off the top of my head.  I'll try to check that out in the next few days (it may take that long to dig them out - LOL).  Good question though, as that transitional period is kind of grey, and not always clear on how things were offered by each manufacturer.  I note in my literature that all of A-C's sides were also sold separately, but there's no mention of the type of material that was used.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
While I'm on this subject, let me add that A-C also sold their Dalman Freight Trucks (assembled) boxed separately (@ 75 cents/pair), and had their own line of A-C paints in 17 colors plus Dull Varnish, Clear Gloss, Thinner, Turpentine and Brush Cleaner.  Also sold were two brushes (B-1 - 1/8" wide and B-2 - 1/4" wide), Cement, "Precision" Wood Parts (end blocks for box cars and reefers, and 40' & 50' 3-plank roof walks) and a series of 47 different small parts -- like passenger car steps, caboose smoke jacks, box car roof ribs, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Looking forward to seeing the TW-1 Vinegar Car, it does build into a fine looking model -- equal (or close to) that of Ambroid/Northeastern in quality.  I extremely doubt you'd be able to find a useable jar of A-C paint today, but they made a "Special FTCX Silver" paint for this model.  I also like their Pickle Tank Cars as being something different for the layout too.  Most had four vats, but the Libby McNeil & Libby (TW-15) had five, which added further to the diversity.  Sounds like you may be getting a digital camera(?).  I only wish I were able to put up photos on the group -- don't know the first thing about it and whatever I've read is still Greek to me.  I guess the only way I'd be able to pick that up would be for someone to walk me through it to make any sense to me.  Best, Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Hi Ray W., All,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> I have one boxed complete AC kit not on your list yet, CB-5 Side Door caboose, St.LSF prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> I have also noted that at least some AC kits were upgraded to wood sides by AC.  Or did L-W sell upgraded wood side work cars in old AC boxes during the transition?  MWX-4 Kitchen car is the partially assembled wood sided kit in the AC box that I have and not yet tackled.  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> As soon as that camera arrives and I learn how to shoot and upload, will also post a well-assembled TW-1 Vinegar Car I found last year on a "junk" table.  That is an impressive model and fairly close in quality to the later Ambroid/Northeastern ones.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Hi Chuck (Higdon), As you've seen, the name L-W models has come up in recent posts.  Thought I'd list this manufacturer hoping maybe you could do another spread sheet for the files, as you've done with the other stuff I sent you.  They don't have a hugh list of kits, so it should be fairly easy -- yet we should probably include them now as many hobbyists aren't quite sure of all (or just what) they made.  I won't indicate the car colors as that would involve my digging them out of the collection, would is always a monumental feat.  I'll include the few car side numbers of what I've receorded, but never got around to jooting them all down.  It should be noted that A-C Model Company started out in the 1930's and was taken over by L-W Model Company in 1955, as I posted here back last September.  All the kits were continued, but changed catalog numbers under L-W.  Where applicable (or where I have them), I'll include both catalog numbers using A-C's numbers first.  As this is mainly an A-C listing, I won't be including all the L-W catalog numbers.  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >                      A-C Model Company
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 40 and 50 Ft. Flat Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > FM-1  50' Flat Undecorated
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > FD-2  50' Depressed Center
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > FD-3  40' Depressed Center
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > FM-5  Flat, Southern 51000
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > FM-6  Flat ERIE, 7500
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > FM-7  Flat PRR, 470132
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Box Car 40' Wood Sheathed:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > XM-1  Northern Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > XM-2  Chicago & Eastern Illinois  510
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > XM-3  Wabash
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > XM-4  Undec.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > XM-5  SL-SF (Frisco)
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 50 Ton ARR Box Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > XM-10 Northern Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > XM-12  Undec.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > XM-13 Western Maryland 27141
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > XM-20 Soo Line
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 40' Automobile Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > XAB-1 Illinois Terminal
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > XAB-2 Undec.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > XAB-3 Southern
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > XAB-10 St. Louis Southwestern
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Refrigerator Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > RS-1  52' PFE Pacific Fruit Express
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > RS-2  40' NADX North American Despatch 12915
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > RS-3  40' WP Western Pacific 51847
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > RB-1  40' SLRX 3354
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Pulpwood Car:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > LPA-1  Kansas City Southern 24000
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > LPA-18 Louisiana & Arkansas
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Wood Gondola:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > GB-1  NYNH&H
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > GB-5  PRR 274836
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > GB-7  MONON (CIL)
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > GB-8  MKT 470025
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Wheel Gondola:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > GB-4  Chesapeake & Ohio
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Vinegar and Pickle Tank Car:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > TW-1  FTCX -- 6 numbers
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > TW-2  Ma Brown's Pickles
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > TW-3  Budlong Pickles
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > TW-4  Monarch Pickles 3830
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > TW-7  Lutz & Schramm Pickles
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > TW-8  Harbauer Pickles
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > TW-15 Libby's Pickles 1362
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Work Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > MWX-1  Supply Car
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > MWX-2  Bunk Car
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > MWX-3  Mess Car
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > MWX-4  Kitchen Car
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > MWX-5  Foreman & Comm. Car
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > MWX-6  Boom Car C&NI 79413
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Caboose:  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > CB-1  Transfer & Switching
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > CB-2  Standard 8-Wheel Caboose
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > CB-3  Bay Window Caboose C&NI
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > CB-4  Combination (Passenger - Baggage) Caboose
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > That's it Chuck!  I know I'm missing some, but can't fill those in as my A-C catalogs do not show them all.  Many thanks again,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9366
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Picard Kit Cars, "Something to write home about..."
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Jay, You may be comparatively new here, but it appears you're more than comfortable in the knowledge of old H0.  You seem to have a fairly decent collection and a well-rounded one from a number of manufacturers -- good to see.  Some of these more obscure manufacturers' kits are great to have and it's always a bonanza when you happen to come by them.  Speaking of which, as I'm thinking of it now -- I don't know what part of the country you're in, but I believe I just recently read that there's a scale H0 train meet this weekend at Timonium, Maryland, always one of the premier shows in the East and one that shouldn't be missed if you can get to it.  All kinds of stuff comes out of the woodwork; you, or anyone here, might want to check into that if you live nearby.  
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Your story of the MRE Corp Observation Car end office, with those photos, is something else I'll be looking forward to seeing.  There's all too little written about the behind-the-scenes happenings of those older days, so I'm sure it's got to be interesting. Best, Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Hi Ray W,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> I guess the reason I posted my criteria for information sources was simply that I keyed off of the reference to "Ma Webster's" catalog and being very new here, was just identifying my method developed after much trial and tribulation!  Seems we are very similar in our approaches.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> As to Picard catalogs, there is one that has been photographed here in one of the photo albums, but not quite clear enough for me to read, so your list comes in handy.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> And of course, you were right on with the 1:1 model Observation Car end office my dad built for MRE Corp in their first location on the second floor!  He also built their long time sales counters which were formed like passenger cars.  As soon as I can scan (software problem), the three original circa 1940 photos I have, I will include the photos in an album with the interesting story here.  The photos are important, as there is some vintage HO showing, and that will enable me to stay "on topic" and keep all happy!
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Hi Jay W., My pleasure in supplying the info, if it will help you.  I too try to be as careful as I can in using various sources to gather information on our vintage manufacturers, realizing at times some of those sources may not be completely accurate.  It's for this same reason that I too first prefer using the information from unbuilt kits as an initial source -- just as you seem to prefer.  This was one of my main sources of information when I supplied same to Dave Spanagel in assisting with his Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains and to Dallas Mallerich when assisting him with his Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains, as there's nothing like having the physical confirmation of this info in your hands as positive evidence.  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Your going to manufacturers' catalogs as the second source is the same direction that I head in when not actually having a piece in the collection, even though there have been times when a manufacturer included an intended new engine or rolling stock kit for that year, which never materialized -- but I feel if they don't know what they produced, surely no one else would.  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > My third source of information is manufacturers' ads in back issues of MR and RMC -- I have near-complete collections of both magazines going back to Vol.1 No.1 - Jan., 1934 (for MR) and Sept., 1939 (for RMC) -- not quite as complete -- but as I'm sure you're aware, this can be tedious and time consuming.  My last sources, but still usually fairly reliable, are the general catalogs such as Walthers and Model Railroad Equipment Corp. (and others) which I make every effort to cross-reference to ensure accuracy -- when available.  I'm not quite sure of your purpose in pointing out your references sources; mine seem similar, even if there may be differences in the order of them, but the general sequence of sources for this information that we've pointed out would seem to be logical for any of us here.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > In the case of these Picard cars, I'm using a number of mine from my collection, but as for literature on this manufacturer this is one of very few that I don't have a catalog of, so you've got to use some source if you want to find any info on such a manufacturer even if it's my fourth choice as far as my order of preference.  In this case, Carmen Webster's info coincided with what I have in my collection of this manufacturer so I felt it reliable enough to use.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > I would enjoy hearing of your father's building of 1:1 scale (did he kitbash it? -- LOL), even though it's not H0.  You haven't mentioned if this piece of equipment was an engine or freight/passenger car (or part of), but I might guess you may be referring to the replica of the rear portion of the NYC's Commodore Vanderbilt obs. that was used as Model R.R. Equipment Corp's general office, although I could well be mistaken.  Best regards,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > Hi Ray W.,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > Thanks for the detailed Picard information. It certainly helps to identify some of those "mystery" box cars that show up occasionally, where sometimes a model builder may have added their own thin wood or card sides, (sometimes even hand scribed), and decals to those later open side versions.  With that in mind, will take another look at those mystery items I have and also be more able to sort out those Picard wood parts. I have read the Bessey name, but not Simons.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > I've always been careful in using the Model Railroad Equipment Company Catalogs issued by Carmen Webster for anthing more than a general information source and not on last years or the final word on model materials, as she often carried items in stock long after manufacture ceased.  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > While some MRE information is very accurate, in other cases, instead of simply re-publishing manufacturer's catalog information, they dissected it, re-combined it and substituted their own numbering system which often does not leave much original information for the model historian or collector to go on. Plus I have found them completely wrong when describing the nature of some kit materials (which first became evident to me when reviewing their Red Ball listings and comparing it to my almost complete R.B. paper collection and very extensive R.B. model collection), but then found descrepancies in other descriptions as well, which was frustrating to find.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > I try to use unbuilt kits as the best source of information (of course not always available), followed by manufacturers catalogs and ads, then the model magazine reviews and reports, then last, the general catalogs of distributors and major dealers like Webster.  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > Even manufacturers often used out of date photos in their catalogs, Red Ball & Walthers, or even substituted O scale photos for some HO models like Walthers. And sometimes advertised items never saw production, either.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > The fact that I often don't often refer to Carmen Webser's catalog is somewhat ironic in that she included a photograph of the largest scale model that my father ever built right on the cover (1:1 scale)!  I will tell the story of that sometime, while not an HO story, but certainly vintage modeling!
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > With an interest here in some of the more obscure rolling stock, I thought I'd mention some of the other cars kits Picard made.  Pre-War and up until 1942, they offered complete (sides included) car kits, although the sides included with them were not lettered, nor painted, but were to use any set of a numerous listing of transfers (decals) offered.  The bodies were white pine blocks, similar to Megow; these came in five lengths: No. X-114 36' block @ 10 cents, No. X-107 40' block @ 10 c, No. X-122 41' @ 10 c, No. 123 42' block @ 10 c and No. X-121 50' block @ 12 1/2 c -- Can't figure how you'd pay for that without being charged 13 cents, unless you bought two for 25 cents.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > The box car kits came with plain sides and overhanging roof, in 36', 40' 42' and 50'.  Then, they also came with plain sides and a receding roof for modern AAR type double-sheathed 41' box cars.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > The reefers (and "Old-Time" box cars) came with scribed sides and ends in 36', 40' and 42' lengths.  The 41' Wagon-Top box cars came with a rounded roof, eaves even with car sides.  The 41' Round-Roof box cars came with the roof set back, or receded from the car sides.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > It was after the War that Picard kits came as "Body-Kits" only, without sides -- which needed to be added to the kit from such manufacturers as Champion or Red Ball (besides also including scribed sides and ends in two series of body kits) -- and yes, Champion made car sides only, they never produced whole kits.  My catalogs (Model Railroad Equipment Company -- Carmen Webster) containing Picard go up until 1950; by 1953, there's no trace of Picard.  During this time they produced 36', 40', 41' 42' and 50' body kits with overhanging roof, 36', 40', 41', 42' and 50' body with receded roof, 40', 41' and 50' Wagon Top body with receded roof, 40', 41' and 50' Wagon Top body with flush roof, 36' 40' 41' and 42' body with scribed sides and overhanging roof and 36', 40', 41' and 42' body with scribed sides and receded roof.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > At this same time, there were other manufacturers who also made just car body kits -- sides to be added.  E.H. Bessey was one of these manufacturers, producing a (G-1) 41' 6" Mill Gondola, a (G-2) Great Northern express reefer and an (G-3) Old Time SP wood box car, as shown in 1950.  Starting in 1953, a company known as F.A. Simons produced a series of 9 body kits; two straight-side gondolas (one 45' 6" and one 50' 6"), one 67' 6" mill gondola, a 50' plain floor flat car, a 50' blank floor flat car, a 1-dome tank car, a 2-dome tank car, a 3-dome tank car and a 44' boom car.  Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > I did find your Picard album interesting.  Your recently assembled gray car is the same covered hopper that I still have as a kit; I believe it is based on a profile of a PPR prototype, even if all the side framing is a bit different than the prototype.  A while back, I was completely mystified as to who Picard Novelty Co. was (OO? O?) and where they fit into HO.  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > Besides their open and covered hopper complete kits, their low cost kits box car and reefer core kits allowed modelers on a budget to purchase a higher priced line's sides alone, like Red Ball, or lines like Champions that I understand sold only sides, then add them to the Picard body shell.  Recently, I acquired a couple of small lots which had about 4 or 5 Picard 36' and 40' boxcar core kits in it with remains of their paper tape wrapper bands, (all mixed up in a ziplock bag with Varney parts!) Going to have fun with those and some of my extra printed sides!
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > >If you go to the group photo page and go to about the second last >page of albums you'll find my Picard album (I put a "z" in front of >the name of all my albums so the other members all could come >first)  You may find it interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > Don
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > don.dellmann@
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > > The Picard Hopper is simply a nicely constructed example decaled for DT&I. 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > > Also found in the small group was a Picard covered hopper lettered for 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > > General Electric, but no photo yet.  I have previously found an 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > > unassembled Picard covered hopper kit with instructons, which  bear the 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > > > slogan, "Something to write home about!"  > > Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9367
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Jim,  So glad you posted this info on the Varney Casey Jones.  This has got to be one of the most useful pieces of information detailing the major differences in the various stages of production of this engine that I've seen, for someone not having Spanagel's book.  I just hope Dave doesn't come down on you for copying it (LOL).  It's stuff like this that needs to be brought to the attention of collectors not that familiar with these engines so they can decide which version they'll be most satisfied with and which choices they have.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Get your version of the Bowser Casey Jones now (LOL) -- they're no longer producing any of these cast steam engines (as of this past January) from what I've been reading, unless there are a few exceptions in their line.  Get any needed parts from them now too, while they're still carrying them.  While I don't think any of us collect Bowser (yet!), they're great runners for the layout and have been a mainstay for steam enthusiasts.  Too bad all good things must come to an end.  I understand that Dave Grover (Eddystone Locomotive Company) will be taking over at least part of Lou English's operation, but I don't know to what extent.  Did I read that here (?), I remember reading this somewhere recently but in briefing over it at the time, I don't know where.  Best,  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                              
>     Even though others have responded I thought I would add to the Varney "Casey Jones"story. I am going to copy a lot of this right out of "Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains" by John David Spangel. I don't want to make any mistakes just relying on my knowledge. Here goes with my one finger typing.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>       Page 57   2450K 4-6-0 Casey Jones kit. This engine had a lightweight cast Zamac boiler. Most detail was cast in place (air pumps, air tanks, power reverse, whistle  and pop off valves. 63" scale drivers were pressed onto the axles and inserted into the slotted die cast unsprung frame and simple stamped main and drive rods were applied. This kit first advertised in 1950. The kit did not contain valve gear when first marketed but a separate kit was made available in 1953. Varney include a Pittman DC-60 motor as well as a scale 32' die cast tender
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>       Page 58   2551 4-6-0 Casey Jones Factory Assembled   When Varney began to market RTR train sets in 1956 they produced an assembled version with no valve gear but included a tender.
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   
                                                                                                                                                                              
>       Page 58   2800K 4-6-0 Casey Jones Kit   In 1960 the trend was toward easily assembled kits and Varney produced the pre painted , unassembled " Screw Driver Series locomotives These had separate details NOT cast on. Bell, Whistle, pop-off were added and made from brass. The valve gear was included. For the first two years the Pittman DC-60 motor was used but in 1962 the Japanese KM-1 was substituted. It had a plastic 32' Scale tender.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>       Page 58    600  Casey Jones, Factory assembled was reintroduced with all the detail found in the 2800K
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>    So there were two distinct Varney runs (one with all parts cast on boiler and one that had separate brass details ) and two tenders (plastic and die cast 32' tenders used), some had valve gear others not, two different motors were used. It all depended on which version you have. The bad part was that anything described could be exchanged and used that I'm sure there are "HYBRIDS" out there that don't match these descriptions.
                                                                                                                                                                              
>        The Bowser production not in this narrative. Some one has already mentioned those changes and NOT being able to switch all parts. You can see that the Varney narrative for their Casey Jones is not easy to explain.
                                                                                                                                                                              
>                               Good luck with your search.  If for any reason you would want pictures I can send the two basic Varney versions, not the Bowser. Hope my one finger typing made no mistakes as tried to copy info out of a book
                                                                                                                                                                              
>                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   From: Dennis Thompson 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   >Hi:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   I'm still watching for a Varney Casey Jones as it was my first HO 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   locomotive many years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   Through the entire production run of that locomotive, were there 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   later production short-cuts, or, "cheapening," of the product? Or, 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   asked in a different manner, if I bought one from an early production 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   run, would I see any difference in a very late production run?
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   Odessa/Ritzville, WA
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9368
						From: Fair-In-Ra@webtv.net
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: A-C Model Company -- L-W Model Company
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Ray,     I have an A-C Models MWX-8 tool and engineering car kit. It is
                                                                                                                                                                              
one of their "Deluxe" kits and features scribed wood sides and ends. The
                                                                                                                                                                              
sides are factory painted and lettered. The kit also includes fully
                                                                                                                                                                              
sprung metal Andrews trucks. All the rest of my A-C kits have the
                                                                                                                                                                              
standard bristol board sides. HTH     Mike Farina
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9369
						From: Fair-In-Ra@webtv.net
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Ray,     The October 1954 issue of Model Railroader featured an article
                                                                                                                                                                              
on building a NYC&HR coke car. This car was built in 1902 for the Solvay
                                                                                                                                                                              
Process Co. and is very similar in appearance to the YOHP car. Perhaps
                                                                                                                                                                              
this was the inspiration. As an aside, Art Griffin makes a great decal
                                                                                                                                                                              
set for the Central car. HTH    Mike Farina
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9370
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                              Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nice to hear from 
you again. As usual I hate to put so much information into an Email. Just to 
easy to make a mistake. If Dave wants to get mad so be it. For all the 
information I shared with him in particular and through the HOSC&H SIG I 
can't see him being mad. Also you notice nothing was totally word for word for 
other reasons. And since I have the engines / tenders ( and new pictures 
should be appearing very soon in a photo album which will done by Lennard 
Stewart ) my information comes first hand. 
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                 The  version of the Bowser 
Casey Jones doesn't fit into my collecting time line. The only Bowser I collect 
is Bill Bowser from Redlands California.  I think I have read here and 
other places about the demise of Bowser steam and the possibility of someone 
taking it over. Hopefully and very soon Bowser engines will fall into the 
vintage category and some will collect them if it is not already being done. 
They did fill a major slot in continuing Varney and Penn Line 
steam.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 8:53 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Casey 
  Jones (4-6-0) production question
                                                                                                                                                                              
  

                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim, So glad you posted this info on the Varney Casey Jones. This has got 
  to be one of the most useful pieces of information detailing the major 
  differences in the various stages of production of this engine that I've seen, 
  for someone not having Spanagel's book. I just hope Dave doesn't come down on 
  you for copying it (LOL). It's stuff like this that needs to be brought to the 
  attention of collectors not that familiar with these engines so they can 
  decide which version they'll be most satisfied with and which choices they 
  have.

                                                                                                                                                                              Get your version of the Bowser Casey Jones now (LOL) -- they're 
  no longer producing any of these cast steam engines (as of this past January) 
  from what I've been reading, unless there are a few exceptions in their line. 
  Get any needed parts from them now too, while they're still carrying them. 
  While I don't think any of us collect Bowser (yet!), they're great runners for 
  the layout and have been a mainstay for steam enthusiasts. Too bad all good 
  things must come to an end. I understand that Dave Grover (Eddystone 
  Locomotive Company) will be taking over at least part of Lou English's 
  operation, but I don't know to what extent. Did I read that here (?), I 
  remember reading this somewhere recently but in briefing over it at the time, 
  I don't know where. Best, Ray

                                                                                                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              > Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
  Even though others have responded I thought I would add to the Varney "Casey 
  Jones"story. I am going to copy a lot of this right out of "Greenberg's Guide 
  to Varney Trains" by John David Spangel. I don't want to make any mistakes 
  just relying on my knowledge. Here goes with my one finger typing.
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                              > Page 57 2450K 4-6-0 Casey Jones kit. This engine had a lightweight 
  cast Zamac boiler. Most detail was cast in place (air pumps, air tanks, power 
  reverse, whistle and pop off valves. 63" scale drivers were pressed onto the 
  axles and inserted into the slotted die cast unsprung frame and simple stamped 
  main and drive rods were applied. This kit first advertised in 1950. The kit 
  did not contain valve gear when first marketed but a separate kit was made 
  available in 1953. Varney include a Pittman DC-60 motor as well as a scale 32' 
  die cast tender
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
                                                                                                                                                                              > Page 58 2551 4-6-0 Casey Jones Factory 
  Assembled When Varney began to market RTR train sets in 1956 they produced an 
  assembled version with no valve gear but included a tender.
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
  Page 58 2800K 4-6-0 Casey Jones Kit In 1960 the trend was toward easily 
  assembled kits and Varney produced the pre painted , unassembled " Screw 
  Driver Series locomotives These had separate details NOT cast on. Bell, 
  Whistle, pop-off were added and made from brass. The valve gear was included. 
  For the first two years the Pittman DC-60 motor was used but in 1962 the 
  Japanese KM-1 was substituted. It had a plastic 32' Scale tender.
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                              > Page 58 600 Casey Jones, Factory assembled was reintroduced with all 
  the detail found in the 2800K
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
                                                                                                                                                                              > So there were two distinct 
  Varney runs (one with all parts cast on boiler and one that had separate brass 
  details ) and two tenders (plastic and die cast 32' tenders used), some had 
  valve gear others not, two different motors were used. It all depended on 
  which version you have. The bad part was that anything described could be 
  exchanged and used that I'm sure there are "HYBRIDS" out there that don't 
  match these descriptions.
                                                                                                                                                                              > The Bowser production not in this narrative. 
  Some one has already mentioned those changes and NOT being able to switch all 
  parts. You can see that the Varney narrative for their Casey Jones is not easy 
  to explain.
                                                                                                                                                                              > Good luck with your search. If for any reason you would 
  want pictures I can send the two basic Varney versions, not the Bowser. Hope 
  my one finger typing made no mistakes as tried to copy info out of a 
  book
                                                                                                                                                                              > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                              > From: Dennis 
  Thompson 
                                                                                                                                                                              > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                              > Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                              > Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                              > >Hi:
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
                                                                                                                                                                              > I'm still watching for a Varney Casey Jones 
  as it was my first HO 
                                                                                                                                                                              > locomotive many years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
  Through the entire production run of that locomotive, were there 
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
  later production short-cuts, or, "cheapening, " of the product? Or, 
  
                                                                                                                                                                              > asked in a different manner, if I bought one from an early production 
  
                                                                                                                                                                              > run, would I see any difference in a very late production 
  run?
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
                                                                                                                                                                              > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                              > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                              > Odessa/Ritzville, 
  WA
                                                                                                                                                                              >

                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9371
						From: Dst8596587@aol.com
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Jim:
                                                                                                                                                                              
Reference the Greenburgh's guide to the Casey Jones concerning valve gear. The April 1952 Model Railroader carries an ad for the engine showing it availble in kit form as a deluxe model, complete with valve gear for about $29.00 and an economy version for about $19.00, with separate valve gear availble for $4.75 . A complete tender kit was avialble for $4.00. I normally don't post on zamac or plastic as my interest is brass, but I ran across this info while researching another project I was involved in and I thought it would be of interst. I know the history on these engines gets a little muddeled over time but its interesting. Good thread and inputs. 
                                                                                                                                                                              
Don
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                              
From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                              
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                              
Sent: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 8:53 am
                                                                                                                                                                              
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Jim, So glad you posted this info on the Varney Casey Jones. This has got to be one of the most useful pieces of information detailing the major differences in the various stages of production of this engine that I've seen, for someone not having Spanagel's book. I just hope Dave doesn't come down on you for copying it (LOL). It's stuff like this that needs to be brought to the attention of collectors not that familiar with these engines so they can decide which version they'll be most satisfied with and which choices they have.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Get your version of the Bowser Casey Jones now (LOL) -- they're no longer producing any of these cast steam engines (as of this past January) from what I've been reading, unless there are a few exceptions in their line. Get any needed parts from them now too, while they're still carrying them. While I don't think any of us collect Bowser (yet!), they're great runners for the layout and have been a mainstay for steam enthusiasts. Too bad all good things must come to an end. I understand that Dave Grover (Eddystone Locomotive Company) will be taking over at least part of Lou English's operation, but I don't know to what extent. Did I read that here (?), I remember reading this somewhere recently but in briefing over it at the time, I don't know where. Best, Ray
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Even though others have responded I thought I would add to the Varney "Casey Jones"story. I am going to copy a lot of this right out of "Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains" by John David Spangel. I don't want to make any mistakes just relying on my knowledge. Here goes with my one finger typing.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Page 57 2450K 4-6-0 Casey Jones kit. This engine had a lightweight cast Zamac boiler. Most detail was cast in place (air pumps, air tanks, power reverse, whistle and pop off valves. 63" scale drivers were pressed onto the axles and inserted into the slotted die cast unsprung frame and simple stamped main and drive rods were applied. This kit first advertised in 1950. The kit did not contain valve gear when first marketed but a separate kit was made available in 1953. Varney include a Pittman DC-60 motor as well as a scale 32' die cast tender
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Page 58 2551 4-6-0 Casey Jones Factory Assembled When Varney began to market RTR train sets in 1956 they produced an assembled version with no valve gear but included a tender.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Page 58 2800K 4-6-0 Casey Jones Kit In 1960 the trend was toward easily assembled kits and Varney produced the pre painted , unassembled " Screw Driver Series locomotives These had separate details NOT cast on. Bell, Whistle, pop-off were added and made from brass. The valve gear was included. For the first two years the Pittman DC-60 motor was used but in 1962 the Japanese KM-1 was substituted. It had a plastic 32' Scale tender.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Page 58 600 Casey Jones, Factory assembled was reintroduced with all the detail found in the 2800K
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> So there were two distinct Varney runs (one with all parts cast on boiler and one that had separate brass details ) and two tenders (plastic and die cast 32' tenders used), some had valve gear others not, two different motors were used. It all depended on which version you have. The bad part was that anything described could be exchanged and used that I'm sure there are "HYBRIDS" out there that don't match these descriptions.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> The Bowser production not in this narrative. Some one has already mentioned those changes and NOT being able to switch all parts. You can see that the Varney narrative for their Casey Jones is not easy to explain.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Good luck with your search. If for any reason you would want pictures I can send the two basic Varney versions, not the Bowser. Hope my one finger typing made no mistakes as tried to copy info out of a book
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> From: Dennis Thompson 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >Hi:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> I'm still watching for a Varney Casey Jones as it was my first HO 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> locomotive many years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Through the entire production run of that locomotive, were there 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> later production short-cuts, or, "cheapening, " of the product? Or, 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> asked in a different manner, if I bought one from an early production 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> run, would I see any difference in a very late production run?
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Odessa/Ritzville, WA
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              



                                                                                                                                                                              







                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9372
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                              Don,
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                       
Thanks for the additional information. If I remember right the first Varney 
Casey Jones version was made without valve gear at first but two years later 
Varney started to sell a valve gear kit for it. I'm.sure the next step would be 
he sold that first version with valve gear already on.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                   I will ad your information 
to mine for future reference. Anytime you try to assemble HO vintage 
history, no matter what company or piece, you run into confusion. It is only 
because of a group like this that many can add to the story. We all get a better 
handle that way. 
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:45 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Casey 
  Jones (4-6-0) production question
                                                                                                                                                                              
  

                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim:
                                                                                                                                                                              Reference the Greenburgh's guide to the Casey Jones concerning 
  valve gear. The April 1952 Model Railroader carries an ad for the engine 
  showing it availble in kit form as a deluxe model, complete with valve gear 
  for about $29.00 and an economy version for about $19.00, with separate valve 
  gear availble for $4.75 . A complete tender kit was avialble for $4.00. I 
  normally don't post on zamac or plastic as my interest is brass, but I ran 
  across this info while researching another project I was involved in and I 
  thought it would be of interst. I know the history on these engines gets a 
  little muddeled over time but its interesting. Good thread and inputs. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Don


                                                                                                                                                                              -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                              From: erieberk 
  <erieberk@wmconnect. com>
                                                                                                                                                                              To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 8:53 am
                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: 
  [vintageHO] Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question

                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              Jim, So glad you posted this info on the Varney Casey Jones. This has got 
  to be one of the most useful pieces of information detailing the major 
  differences in the various stages of production of this engine that I've seen, 
  for someone not having Spanagel's book. I just hope Dave doesn't come down on 
  you for copying it (LOL). It's stuff like this that needs to be brought to the 
  attention of collectors not that familiar with these engines so they can 
  decide which version they'll be most satisfied with and which choices they 
  have.

                                                                                                                                                                              Get your version of the Bowser Casey Jones now (LOL) -- they're 
  no longer producing any of these cast steam engines (as of this past January) 
  from what I've been reading, unless there are a few exceptions in their line. 
  Get any needed parts from them now too, while they're still carrying them. 
  While I don't think any of us collect Bowser (yet!), they're great runners for 
  the layout and have been a mainstay for steam enthusiasts. Too bad all good 
  things must come to an end. I understand that Dave Grover (Eddystone 
  Locomotive Company) will be taking over at least part of Lou English's 
  operation, but I don't know to what extent. Did I read that here (?), I 
  remember reading this somewhere recently but in briefing over it at the time, 
  I don't know where. Best, Ray

                                                                                                                                                                              --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              >
                                                                                                                                                                              > Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
  Even though others have responded I thought I would add to the Varney "Casey 
  Jones"story. I am going to copy a lot of this right out of "Greenberg's Guide 
  to Varney Trains" by John David Spangel. I don't want to make any mistakes 
  just relying on my knowledge. Here goes with my one finger typing.
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                              > Page 57 2450K 4-6-0 Casey Jones kit. This engine had a lightweight 
  cast Zamac boiler. Most detail was cast in place (air pumps, air tanks, power 
  reverse, whistle and pop off valves. 63" scale drivers were pressed onto the 
  axles and inserted into the slotted die cast unsprung frame and simple stamped 
  main and drive rods were applied. This kit first advertised in 1950. The kit 
  did not contain valve gear when first marketed but a separate kit was made 
  available in 1953. Varney include a Pittman DC-60 motor as well as a scale 32' 
  die cast tender
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
                                                                                                                                                                              > Page 58 2551 4-6-0 Casey Jones Factory 
  Assembled When Varney began to market RTR train sets in 1956 they produced an 
  assembled version with no valve gear but included a tender.
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
  Page 58 2800K 4-6-0 Casey Jones Kit In 1960 the trend was toward easily 
  assembled kits and Varney produced the pre painted , unassembled " Screw 
  Driver Series locomotives These had separate details NOT cast on. Bell, 
  Whistle, pop-off were added and made from brass. The valve gear was included. 
  For the first two years the Pittman DC-60 motor was used but in 1962 the 
  Japanese KM-1 was substituted. It had a plastic 32' Scale tender.
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                              > Page 58 600 Casey Jones, Factory assembled was reintroduced with all 
  the detail found in the 2800K
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
                                                                                                                                                                              > So there were two distinct 
  Varney runs (one with all parts cast on boiler and one that had separate brass 
  details ) and two tenders (plastic and die cast 32' tenders used), some had 
  valve gear others not, two different motors were used. It all depended on 
  which version you have. The bad part was that anything described could be 
  exchanged and used that I'm sure there are "HYBRIDS" out there that don't 
  match these descriptions.
                                                                                                                                                                              > The Bowser production not in this narrative. 
  Some one has already mentioned those changes and NOT being able to switch all 
  parts. You can see that the Varney narrative for their Casey Jones is not easy 
  to explain.
                                                                                                                                                                              > Good luck with your search. If for any reason you would 
  want pictures I can send the two basic Varney versions, not the Bowser. Hope 
  my one finger typing made no mistakes as tried to copy info out of a 
  book
                                                                                                                                                                              > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                              > From: Dennis 
  Thompson 
                                                                                                                                                                              > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                              > Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                              > Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                              > >Hi:
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
                                                                                                                                                                              > I'm still watching for a Varney Casey Jones 
  as it was my first HO 
                                                                                                                                                                              > locomotive many years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
  Through the entire production run of that locomotive, were there 
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
  later production short-cuts, or, "cheapening, " of the product? Or, 
  
                                                                                                                                                                              > asked in a different manner, if I bought one from an early production 
  
                                                                                                                                                                              > run, would I see any difference in a very late production 
  run?
                                                                                                                                                                              > 
                                                                                                                                                                              > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                              > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                              > Odessa/Ritzville, 
  WA
                                                                                                                                                                              >

                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9373
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Mike, Thanks for pointing out which issue to find this in.  I noted that Mike Bauers stated having this issue published by Kalmbach Publishing (RMC) in 1954.  Should have no trouble going directly to it now.  Interesting, they were reporting marked for NYH&HR (NYC predecessor).  I wonder where on the line they used them; where Solvay Process Co. was on the line? -- and to what point.  Maybe it says in the article.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fair-In-Ra@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Ray,     The October 1954 issue of Model Railroader featured an article
                                                                                                                                                                              
> on building a NYC&HR coke car. This car was built in 1902 for the Solvay
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Process Co. and is very similar in appearance to the YOHP car. Perhaps
                                                                                                                                                                              
> this was the inspiration. As an aside, Art Griffin makes a great decal
                                                                                                                                                                              
> set for the Central car. HTH    Mike Farina
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9374
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: A-C Model Company -- L-W Model Company
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Mike,  Appreciate your letting us know about this car.  Another piece of the puzzle which I had no way of knowing existed; my catalogs for this manufacturer does not include this one.  Most probably, a later model being produced near L-W's take-over.  Your mention of "Deluxe" kits (with scribed wood sides) brings back some of the memory on them.  It's been a while since I last took a look at my A-C kits, so I didn't remember this part.  Looks like that answers another part of the puzzle being asked, although I'll still dig out my kits to see how many others had wood sides.  Most of A-C's (and L-W's) kits at least came as factory painted and letter sides/ends as I recall.  May I presume that this car was also lettered for C&NI as were other M of W cars?  Ray 
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fair-In-Ra@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Ray,     I have an A-C Models MWX-8 tool and engineering car kit. It is
                                                                                                                                                                              
> one of their "Deluxe" kits and features scribed wood sides and ends. The
                                                                                                                                                                              
> sides are factory painted and lettered. The kit also includes fully
                                                                                                                                                                              
> sprung metal Andrews trucks. All the rest of my A-C kits have the
                                                                                                                                                                              
> standard bristol board sides. HTH     Mike Farina
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9375
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Jim,  Whether you send the info as an email or include it in ther files, there's always the possibiliy of making mistakes, but this is the only way this stuff is gonna be seen and read by other hobbyists.  I know what you mean though, as the possibility for making mistakes is stronger with our methods of typing.  I doubt Dave would ever say much about using his material, he's not that kind of guy; I was only pointing out what could happen -- like if Greenberg saw it.  I too understand that as long as words are changed around, it can't be consider as a copy, at least I hope not.  I was reminded a while back when I intended to include my history of Laconia - Binkley here (which I had previously sent to the HOSC&H SIG, that technically the material was copyrighted by Dave and that there could be repercussions if I just went ahead and re-used it (and I have 95% of what they made).  If I don't see anything resulting from your Varney posting, I might just decide to go ahead with it (LOL).
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Bowser does not fit into my collecting interests either, but I enjoy building and running them -- they're nicely engineered.  I have a few Bowser of Redlands, CA kits in my collection, among them a mint Challenger kit which is staying that way.  I have a few of the later models with that "Super" motor which I've built.  Speaking of which, there was a period of time in the mid 1970's when Bowser discontinued making them -- and it was assumed for all anyone knew that they were not to be continued.  Anyone having one they were willing to sell at that time could ask just about anything they wanted for it and get it.  I got one at that time from Hobbies for Men hobbyshop in Beacon, NY (they used to take out full page adds in MR), and at a very fair price.  This piece was not advertised but I found out about it through the grapevine -- it was George's (the owner) personal model which he built.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>       Nice to hear from you again. As usual I hate to put so much information into an Email. Just to easy to make a mistake. If Dave wants to get mad so be it. For all the information I shared with him in particular and through the HOSC&H SIG I can't see him being mad. Also you notice nothing was totally word for word for other reasons. And since I have the engines / tenders ( and new pictures should be appearing very soon in a photo album which will done by Lennard Stewart ) my information comes first hand. 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>    The  version of the Bowser Casey Jones doesn't fit into my collecting time line. The only Bowser I collect is Bill Bowser from Redlands California.  I think I have read here and other places about the demise of Bowser steam and the possibility of someone taking it over. Hopefully and very soon Bowser engines will fall into the vintage category and some will collect them if it is not already being done. They did fill a major slot in continuing Varney and Penn Line steam.
                                                                                                                                                                              
>                                                                                           Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 8:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   Jim, So glad you posted this info on the Varney Casey Jones. This has got to be one of the most useful pieces of information detailing the major differences in the various stages of production of this engine that I've seen, for someone not having Spanagel's book. I just hope Dave doesn't come down on you for copying it (LOL). It's stuff like this that needs to be brought to the attention of collectors not that familiar with these engines so they can decide which version they'll be most satisfied with and which choices they have.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   Get your version of the Bowser Casey Jones now (LOL) -- they're no longer producing any of these cast steam engines (as of this past January) from what I've been reading, unless there are a few exceptions in their line. Get any needed parts from them now too, while they're still carrying them. While I don't think any of us collect Bowser (yet!), they're great runners for the layout and have been a mainstay for steam enthusiasts. Too bad all good things must come to an end. I understand that Dave Grover (Eddystone Locomotive Company) will be taking over at least part of Lou English's operation, but I don't know to what extent. Did I read that here (?), I remember reading this somewhere recently but in briefing over it at the time, I don't know where. Best, Ray
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > Even though others have responded I thought I would add to the Varney "Casey Jones"story. I am going to copy a lot of this right out of "Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains" by John David Spangel. I don't want to make any mistakes just relying on my knowledge. Here goes with my one finger typing.
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > Page 57 2450K 4-6-0 Casey Jones kit. This engine had a lightweight cast Zamac boiler. Most detail was cast in place (air pumps, air tanks, power reverse, whistle and pop off valves. 63" scale drivers were pressed onto the axles and inserted into the slotted die cast unsprung frame and simple stamped main and drive rods were applied. This kit first advertised in 1950. The kit did not contain valve gear when first marketed but a separate kit was made available in 1953. Varney include a Pittman DC-60 motor as well as a scale 32' die cast tender
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > Page 58 2551 4-6-0 Casey Jones Factory Assembled When Varney began to market RTR train sets in 1956 they produced an assembled version with no valve gear but included a tender.
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > Page 58 2800K 4-6-0 Casey Jones Kit In 1960 the trend was toward easily assembled kits and Varney produced the pre painted , unassembled " Screw Driver Series locomotives These had separate details NOT cast on. Bell, Whistle, pop-off were added and made from brass. The valve gear was included. For the first two years the Pittman DC-60 motor was used but in 1962 the Japanese KM-1 was substituted. It had a plastic 32' Scale tender.
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > Page 58 600 Casey Jones, Factory assembled was reintroduced with all the detail found in the 2800K
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > So there were two distinct Varney runs (one with all parts cast on boiler and one that had separate brass details ) and two tenders (plastic and die cast 32' tenders used), some had valve gear others not, two different motors were used. It all depended on which version you have. The bad part was that anything described could be exchanged and used that I'm sure there are "HYBRIDS" out there that don't match these descriptions.
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > The Bowser production not in this narrative. Some one has already mentioned those changes and NOT being able to switch all parts. You can see that the Varney narrative for their Casey Jones is not easy to explain.
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > Good luck with your search. If for any reason you would want pictures I can send the two basic Varney versions, not the Bowser. Hope my one finger typing made no mistakes as tried to copy info out of a book
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > From: Dennis Thompson 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 1:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > >Hi:
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > I'm still watching for a Varney Casey Jones as it was my first HO 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > locomotive many years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > Through the entire production run of that locomotive, were there 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > later production short-cuts, or, "cheapening," of the product? Or, 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > asked in a different manner, if I bought one from an early production 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > run, would I see any difference in a very late production run?
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   > Odessa/Ritzville, WA
                                                                                                                                                                              
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9376
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: A-C Model Company - Paint & Seperate Parts Line
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
A-C Paint! Found one of those minature 2 ounce A-C paint cans in a large vintage estate lot a few years back, "P-10, Dull Black"  The paper label in black & yellow on white and matches their early graphics.  Used, with enough left in rim to leave an air tight seal, so while the pigment has no doubt solidified into a rock-like mass, the carrier still happilly sloshes around inside.  Keep it on my shelf, resting in an old glass ash tray, as with old cans, one never knows!  I've seen others at shows in old paint lots.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Not too many A-C parts around, but found a pair of A-C red plastic (tenite?) bay window bays in their original A-C marked cello envelope, saving those for now, possibly until I find a model needing them for restoration or a kit with them missing. 
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
>
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Jay (W.), Great! -- THAT'S the kind of additional input we need here, to help complete these listings.  Keep these additions coming for all the empty spaces we need to fill in (on all manufacturers) so that we can know all that they made.  Always good to have unbuilt kits as you can't get any more closer to what was actually produced, unless you were right their at the factory.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> I don't think very many of us have complete rolling stock collections of any manufacturer, unless they had a very limited selection of offerings.  I know I don't, but we keep trying to complete them and this input helps find them (or at least makes us aware of what to look for); many thanks Jay.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> I would have to go back into that part (A-C -- L-W) of my collection to verify whether A-C had wood sided kits -- I don't know off the top of my head.  I'll try to check that out in the next few days (it may take that long to dig them out - LOL).  Good question though, as that transitional period is kind of grey, and not always clear on how things were offered by each manufacturer.  I note in my literature that all of A-C's sides were also sold separately, but there's no mention of the type of material that was used.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> While I'm on this subject, let me add that A-C also sold their Dalman Freight Trucks (assembled) boxed separately (@ 75 cents/pair), and had their own line of A-C paints in 17 colors plus Dull Varnish, Clear Gloss, Thinner, Turpentine and Brush Cleaner.  Also sold were two brushes (B-1 - 1/8" wide and B-2 - 1/4" wide), Cement, "Precision" Wood Parts (end blocks for box cars and reefers, and 40' & 50' 3-plank roof walks) and a series of 47 different small parts -- like passenger car steps, caboose smoke jacks, box car roof ribs, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> Looking forward to seeing the TW-1 Vinegar Car, it does build into a fine looking model -- equal (or close to) that of Ambroid/Northeastern in quality.  I extremely doubt you'd be able to find a useable jar of A-C paint today, but they made a "Special FTCX Silver" paint for this model.  I also like their Pickle Tank Cars as being something different for the layout too.  Most had four vats, but the Libby McNeil & Libby (TW-15) had five, which added further to the diversity.  Sounds like you may be getting a digital camera(?).  I only wish I were able to put up photos on the group -- don't know the first thing about it and whatever I've read is still Greek to me.  I guess the only way I'd be able to pick that up would be for someone to walk me through it to make any sense to me.  Best, Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                              
> >
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Hi Ray W., All,
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > I have one boxed complete AC kit not on your list yet, CB-5 Side Door caboose, St.LSF prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > I have also noted that at least some AC kits were upgraded to wood sides by AC.  Or did L-W sell upgraded wood side work cars in old AC boxes during the transition?  MWX-4 Kitchen car is the partially assembled wood sided kit in the AC box that I have and not yet tackled.  
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > As soon as that camera arrives and I learn how to shoot and upload, will also post a well-assembled TW-1 Vinegar Car I found last year on a "junk" table.  That is an impressive model and fairly close in quality to the later Ambroid/Northeastern ones.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                              
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9377
						From: Fair-In-Ra@webtv.net
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Don,     I have a 1951 Varney catalog that shows no valve gear available
                                                                                                                                                                              
for the Casey Jones, not even as an add-on. 1952 must have been the
                                                                                                                                                                              
first year of production. HTH     Mike Farina
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9378
						From: Fair-In-Ra@webtv.net
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: A-C Model Company -- L-W Model Company
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Ray,     The sides of the tool car are painted Tuscan red, lettered in
                                                                                                                                                                              
white. The car # is X303, but no road name or initials are included. The
                                                                                                                                                                              
parts envelope is marked "MWX-8 WOOD SIDES" with car number #303 stamped
                                                                                                                                                                              
in red. The envelope was still sealed when I acquired the kit fom eBay
                                                                                                                                                                              
about 10 years ago. Sadly, the instruction and advertising sheets were
                                                                                                                                                                              
missing, or else I could give you a rundown on what other kits might
                                                                                                                                                                              
have had wood sides. My kit for MWX-2 bunk car has unpainted bristol
                                                                                                                                                                              
board sides. This kit has advertising sheets intact, listing other kits,
                                                                                                                                                                              
parts and paint, glue and brushes. None of the sheets are dated.
                                                                                                                                                                              
Mike F.
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9379
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              I have a question:
                                                                                                                                                                              
I called Kalmbach to double-check, and they never owned RMC.
                                                                                                                                                                              
Was this a joint article by both magazines?
                                                                                                                                                                              
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                               > Hi Mike, Thanks for pointing out which issue to find this in.  I noted that Mike Bauers stated having this issue published by Kalmbach Publishing (RMC) in 1954.  Should have no trouble going directly to it now.  Interesting, they were reporting marked for NYH&HR (NYC predecessor).  I wonder where on the line they used them; where Solvay Process Co. was on the line? -- and to what point.  Maybe it says in the article.  Ray 
                                                                                                                                                                              

								
                                                                                                                                                                              
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
						                                                                                                                                                                              		
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              

				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9380
						From: Lennard Stewart
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production question
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                


  
  

 
Lennard Stewart wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                
         Hi Everyone 
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                
           I know just a few years ago when I was taking classes at a
University  and in Writing papers as long as we gave credit to the
Authors and who ever else
                                                                                                                                                                                
was involved in Writing a book or article they we were quoting  or
using in our Papers then no Copyright Laws were Broken. Also if it
comes from Material written prior to a certain year then there are no
copyrights on it.  Not sure which year that is though.
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                
Here is the link to back up what I am saying.
                                                                                                                                                                                
http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/10.html
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                Lennard Stewart
Owner of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1-87scalevehiclesales/
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                
erieberk wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                Jim, Whether you send the info as an email or include it in ther
files, there's always the possibiliy of making mistakes, but this is
the only way this stuff is gonna be seen and read by other hobbyists. I
know what you mean though, as the possibility for making mistakes is
stronger with our methods of typing. I doubt Dave would ever say much
about using his material, he's not that kind of guy; I was only
pointing out what could happen -- like if Greenberg saw it. I too
understand that as long as words are changed around, it can't be
consider as a copy, at least I hope not. I was reminded a while back
when I intended to include my history of Laconia - Binkley here (which
I had previously sent to the HOSC&H SIG, that technically the
material was copyrighted by Dave and that there could be repercussions
if I just went ahead and re-used it (and I have 95% of what they made).
If I don't see anything resulting from your Varney posting, I might
just decide to go ah
  
                                                                                                                                                                                
Bowser does not fit into my collecting interests either, but I enjoy
building and running them -- they're nicely engineered. I have a few
Bowser of Redlands, CA kits in my collection, among them a mint
Challenger kit which is staying that way. I have a few of the later
models with that "Super" motor which I've built. Speaking of which,
there was a period of time in the mid 1970's when Bowser discontinued
making them -- and it was assumed for all anyone knew that they were
not to be continued. Anyone having one they were willing to sell at
that time could ask just about anything they wanted for it and get it.
I got one at that time from Hobbies for Men hobbyshop in Beacon, NY
(they used to take out full page adds in MR), and at a very fair price.
This piece was not advertised but I found out about it through the
grapevine -- it was George's (the owner) personal model which he built.
Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Nice to hear from you again. As usual I hate to put so much
information into an Email. Just to easy to make a mistake. If Dave
wants to get mad so be it. For all the information I shared with him in
particular and through the HOSC&H SIG I can't see him being mad.
Also you notice nothing was totally word for word for other reasons.
And since I have the engines / tenders ( and new pictures should be
appearing very soon in a photo album which will done by Lennard Stewart
) my information comes first hand. 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> The version of the Bowser Casey Jones doesn't fit into my
collecting time line. The only Bowser I collect is Bill Bowser from
Redlands California. I think I have read here and other places about
the demise of Bowser steam and the possibility of someone taking it
over. Hopefully and very soon Bowser engines will fall into the vintage
category and some will collect them if it is not already being done.
They did fill a major slot in continuing Varney and Penn Line steam.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
  
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 8:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Casey Jones (4-6-0) production
question
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Jim, So glad you posted this info on the Varney Casey Jones. This
has got to be one of the most useful pieces of information detailing
the major differences in the various stages of production of this
engine that I've seen, for someone not having Spanagel's book. I just
hope Dave doesn't come down on you for copying it (LOL). It's stuff
like this that needs to be brought to the attention of collectors not
that familiar with these engines so they can decide which version
they'll be most satisfied with and which choices they have.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Get your version of the Bowser Casey Jones now (LOL) -- they're no
longer producing any of these cast steam engines (as of this past
January) from what I've been reading, unless there are a few exceptions
in their line. Get any needed parts from them now too, while they're
still carrying them. While I don't think any of us collect Bowser
(yet!), they're great runners for the layout and have been a mainstay
for steam enthusiasts. Too bad all good things must come to an end. I
understand that Dave Grover (Eddystone Locomotive Company) will be
taking over at least part of Lou English's operation, but I don't know
to what extent. Did I read that here (?), I remember reading this
somewhere recently but in briefing over it at the time, I don't know
where. Best, Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Even though others have responded I thought I would add to
the Varney "Casey Jones"story. I am going to copy a lot of this right
out of "Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains" by John David Spangel. I
don't want to make any mistakes just relying on my knowledge. Here goes
with my one finger typing.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Page 57 2450K 4-6-0 Casey Jones kit. This engine had a
lightweight cast Zamac boiler. Most detail was cast in place (air
pumps, air tanks, power reverse, whistle and pop off valves. 63" scale
drivers were pressed onto the axles and inserted into the slotted die
cast unsprung frame and simple stamped main and drive rods were
applied. This kit first advertised in 1950. The kit did not contain
valve gear when first marketed but a separate kit was made available in
1953. Varney include a Pittman DC-60 motor as well as a scale 32' die
cast tender
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Page 58 2551 4-6-0 Casey Jones Factory Assembled When Varney
began to market RTR train sets in 1956 they produced an assembled
version with no valve gear but included a tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Page 58 2800K 4-6-0 Casey Jones Kit In 1960 the trend was
toward easily assembled kits and Varney produced the pre painted ,
unassembled " Screw Driver Series locomotives These had separate
details NOT cast on. Bell, Whistle, pop-off were added and made from
brass. The valve gear was included. For the first two years the Pittman
DC-60 motor was used but in 1962 the Japanese KM-1 was substituted. It
had a plastic 32' Scale tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Page 58 600 Casey Jones, Factory assembled was reintroduced
with all the detail found in the 2800K
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > So there were two distinct Varney runs (one with all parts
cast on boiler and one that had separate brass details ) and two
tenders (plastic and die cast 32' tenders used), some had valve gear
others not, two different motors were used. It all depended on which
version you have. The bad part was that anything described could be
exchanged and used that I'm sure there are "HYBRIDS" out there that
don't match these descriptions.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > The Bowser production not in this narrative. Some one has
already mentioned those changes and NOT being able to switch all parts.
You can see that the Varney narrative for their Casey Jones is not easy
to explain.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Good luck with your search. If for any reason you would want
pictures I can send the two basic Varney versions, not the Bowser. Hope
my one finger typing made no mistakes as tried to copy info out of a
book
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                

  
                                                                                                                                                                                

  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                
 

                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9381
						From: Fair-In-Ra@webtv.net
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                Ray,     The Solvay Process Co. had several facilities around the
                                                                                                                                                                                
Northeast. It takes its name from Solvay, N.Y. near Syracuse. This was
                                                                                                                                                                                
the location of their first plant. Their main facility was in Delray,
                                                                                                                                                                                
Michigan and the coke car is lettered for that plant. The car carries
                                                                                                                                                                                
the number NYC&HR X1031. I also have a builder's photo of a ACF steel
                                                                                                                                                                                
hopper lettered for Solvay Process from 1900. This car does not carry
                                                                                                                                                                                
the initials of any individual RR. Solvay Process produced soda ash and
                                                                                                                                                                                
other caustics used in manufacturing. It existed from the early 1880s
                                                                                                                                                                                
till about 1920 when it was taken over by Allied Chemical.     Mike F.
                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9382
						From: Fair-In-Ra@webtv.net
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                Dave,     The article is from the October 1954 issue of Model
                                                                                                                                                                                
Railroader. Kalmbach Publishing did not produce RMC, and RMC had nothing
                                                                                                                                                                                
to do with this article. The author was Eric Stevens and the drawings
                                                                                                                                                                                
were by the legendary J. Harold Geissel, a wonderful illustrator who
                                                                                                                                                                                
unfortunately was known to occasionally flat-out make things up. HTH
                                                                                                                                                                                
Mike Farina
                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9383
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: apology
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                Stuff happens!
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                 I have never had a problem seeing any of the pictures you have sent and enjoyed tehm all greatly.
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                Charlie W.


                                                                                                                                                                                

-- 

                                                                                                                                                                                 Be Yourself @ mail.com!
                                                                                                                                                                                
Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
                                                                                                                                                                                
Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!
                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9384
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                Dave,  Not my day!!!  Another blunder!  For some reason I thought I had read the article appearing in RMC -- without even thinking far enough ahead to realize that Kalmbach published Model Railroader and Trains magazines.  Had to be something else I read concerning RMC that stuck in my mind.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                
> I have a question:
                                                                                                                                                                                
> I called Kalmbach to double-check, and they never owned RMC.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Was this a joint article by both magazines?
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Hi Mike, Thanks for pointing out which issue to find this in.  I noted that Mike Bauers stated having this issue published by Kalmbach Publishing (RMC) in 1954.  Should have no trouble going directly to it now.  Interesting, they were reporting marked for NYH&HR (NYC predecessor).  I wonder where on the line they used them; where Solvay Process Co. was on the line? -- and to what point.  Maybe it says in the article.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9385
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                Not a problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                
I just wanted to make sure I didn't actually miss something!
                                                                                                                                                                                
I used to write for Clambake, still advertise with them, hence the ability to call folks I know there.
                                                                                                                                                                                
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                 > Dave,  Not my day!!!  Another blunder!  For some reason I thought I had read the article appearing in RMC -- without even thinking far enough ahead to realize that Kalmbach published Model Railroader and Trains magazines.  Had to be something else I read concerning RMC that stuck in my mind.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > I have a question:
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > I called Kalmbach to double-check, and they never owned RMC.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Was this a joint article by both magazines?
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > Hi Mike, Thanks for pointing out which issue to find this in.  I noted that Mike Bauers stated having this issue published by Kalmbach Publishing (RMC) in 1954.  Should have no trouble going directly to it now.  Interesting, they were reporting marked for NYH&HR (NYC predecessor).  I wonder where on the line they used them; where Solvay Process Co. was on the line? -- and to what point.  Maybe it says in the article.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9386
						From: Bill Fornshell
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Eric,
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                
I have to take the blame for this one.  When Mike first posted about the Coke Car I looked in the train index and thought I found an article from RMC and posted the RMC and month but now I can't even find that.
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                
Then when Mike put the article in the file I realized I was mistaken and sent him an email.
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                
So it is all my fault and it must be the first mistake I ever made - right.
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                
Bill in Texas.
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                 --- On Fri, 4/3/09, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                
> From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
                                                                                                                                                                                
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 7:18 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Dave,  Not my day!!!  Another blunder!  For some reason I
                                                                                                                                                                                
> thought I had read the article appearing in RMC -- without
                                                                                                                                                                                
> even thinking far enough ahead to realize that Kalmbach
                                                                                                                                                                                
> published Model Railroader and Trains magazines.  Had to be
                                                                                                                                                                                
> something else I read concerning RMC that stuck in my mind. 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9387
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: A-C Model Company - Paint & Seperate Parts Line
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jay W., This may sound a little nuts, but nice find!  I enjoy coming across odd stuff like this, even if it may only be worth a dollar at the most, or maybe even a freebie thrown in with something else.  It was a product of a respected manufacturer and it's probably rarer than many kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                
Reminds me when I ran across a bunch of plastic Varney passenger platform kits (with overhang), sealed in cellophane, for about a buck apiece; I think there were about a dozen of them.  I grabbed them all.  I seem to remember finding them mentioned or listed somewhere, but just going through my catalogs (Varney) now, I can't find them listed anywhere.  It's just a small item, which can't be worth very much, yet it's scarce enough to be appreciated.  Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> A-C Paint! Found one of those minature 2 ounce A-C paint cans in a large vintage estate lot a few years back, "P-10, Dull Black"  The paper label in black & yellow on white and matches their early graphics.  Used, with enough left in rim to leave an air tight seal, so while the pigment has no doubt solidified into a rock-like mass, the carrier still happilly sloshes around inside.  Keep it on my shelf, resting in an old glass ash tray, as with old cans, one never knows!  I've seen others at shows in old paint lots.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Not too many A-C parts around, but found a pair of A-C red plastic (tenite?) bay window bays in their original A-C marked cello envelope, saving those for now, possibly until I find a model needing them for restoration or a kit with them missing. 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Jay (W.), Great! -- THAT'S the kind of additional input we need here, to help complete these listings.  Keep these additions coming for all the empty spaces we need to fill in (on all manufacturers) so that we can know all that they made.  Always good to have unbuilt kits as you can't get any more closer to what was actually produced, unless you were right their at the factory.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > I don't think very many of us have complete rolling stock collections of any manufacturer, unless they had a very limited selection of offerings.  I know I don't, but we keep trying to complete them and this input helps find them (or at least makes us aware of what to look for); many thanks Jay.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > I would have to go back into that part (A-C -- L-W) of my collection to verify whether A-C had wood sided kits -- I don't know off the top of my head.  I'll try to check that out in the next few days (it may take that long to dig them out - LOL).  Good question though, as that transitional period is kind of grey, and not always clear on how things were offered by each manufacturer.  I note in my literature that all of A-C's sides were also sold separately, but there's no mention of the type of material that was used.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > While I'm on this subject, let me add that A-C also sold their Dalman Freight Trucks (assembled) boxed separately (@ 75 cents/pair), and had their own line of A-C paints in 17 colors plus Dull Varnish, Clear Gloss, Thinner, Turpentine and Brush Cleaner.  Also sold were two brushes (B-1 - 1/8" wide and B-2 - 1/4" wide), Cement, "Precision" Wood Parts (end blocks for box cars and reefers, and 40' & 50' 3-plank roof walks) and a series of 47 different small parts -- like passenger car steps, caboose smoke jacks, box car roof ribs, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Looking forward to seeing the TW-1 Vinegar Car, it does build into a fine looking model -- equal (or close to) that of Ambroid/Northeastern in quality.  I extremely doubt you'd be able to find a useable jar of A-C paint today, but they made a "Special FTCX Silver" paint for this model.  I also like their Pickle Tank Cars as being something different for the layout too.  Most had four vats, but the Libby McNeil & Libby (TW-15) had five, which added further to the diversity.  Sounds like you may be getting a digital camera(?).  I only wish I were able to put up photos on the group -- don't know the first thing about it and whatever I've read is still Greek to me.  I guess the only way I'd be able to pick that up would be for someone to walk me through it to make any sense to me.  Best, Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > Hi Ray W., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > I have one boxed complete AC kit not on your list yet, CB-5 Side Door caboose, St.LSF prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > I have also noted that at least some AC kits were upgraded to wood sides by AC.  Or did L-W sell upgraded wood side work cars in old AC boxes during the transition?  MWX-4 Kitchen car is the partially assembled wood sided kit in the AC box that I have and not yet tackled.  
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > As soon as that camera arrives and I learn how to shoot and upload, will also post a well-assembled TW-1 Vinegar Car I found last year on a "junk" table.  That is an impressive model and fairly close in quality to the later Ambroid/Northeastern ones.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9388
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels - Kit or Scratchbuilt?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                Mike,  Okay, so it's right on the main line between New York City and Chicago.  I've never heard of that town or city, but then, that doesn't mean much.  Interesting stuff you've described.  I wonder if they ran unit coke trains between Solvay, NY and Delray, MI.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fair-In-Ra@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Ray,     The Solvay Process Co. had several facilities around the
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Northeast. It takes its name from Solvay, N.Y. near Syracuse. This was
                                                                                                                                                                                
> the location of their first plant. Their main facility was in Delray,
                                                                                                                                                                                
> Michigan and the coke car is lettered for that plant. The car carries
                                                                                                                                                                                
> the number NYC&HR X1031. I also have a builder's photo of a ACF steel
                                                                                                                                                                                
> hopper lettered for Solvay Process from 1900. This car does not carry
                                                                                                                                                                                
> the initials of any individual RR. Solvay Process produced soda ash and
                                                                                                                                                                                
> other caustics used in manufacturing. It existed from the early 1880s
                                                                                                                                                                                
> till about 1920 when it was taken over by Allied Chemical.     Mike F.
                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9389
						From: Lennard Stewart
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: First and Second Run Varney Casey Jones
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                  


  
  

 
Lennard Stewart wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
            Hi Everyone and Jim Heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
If any one wants to look at these they are located in the Photo Section
Under Jim Heckard posted by lennardray.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Here is the link to the album.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1738510897/pic/list
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  -- 
Lennard Stewart
Owner of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1-87scalevehiclesales/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9390
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: IMPORTANT!!!!! MESSAGE TO ALL MEMBERS   (was Re: [vintageHO] apology
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT TO ALL GROUP MEMBERS
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
As of sometime on the 31st of March, Yahoo changed the way attachments are 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
delivered.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Now, instead of the photos showing automatically in the messages, there's a 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
clickable link at the end labeled "attachments"
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To see the attached picture, click on it, and it takes you to a folder on 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the group web site.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Anyone else, reading messages online or in digest mode can also see them, by 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
going on the left side of the home page, and under messages, clicking on 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
"attachments:" where the photos will be stored, each group in an individual 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
folder.  These also will be archived so later users can go back and see them 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Any questions on how this works, please ask, and I'll try to explain it 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
again (I'm not 100% clear on the ins and outs yet myself).
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
This is not my doing, it's how Yahoo chose to set it up so attachments are 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
stored again.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9391
						From: Larry
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Some Vintage Film from Disney
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Thought I would share this with the group,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm sure some of you recall this,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Was looking around Youtube for trains, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
came across this old piece of footage,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
I remember seeing some of this along time ago,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the guy on the box car on his belly I remembered, lol
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9LnZ52KTKg
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9392
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: IMPORTANT!!!!! MESSAGE TO ALL MEMBERS   (was Re: [vintageHO] apo
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  I noticed that when I posted the photo of
my Mantua 0-6-0
drive. What’s interesting is Yahoo hasn’t made this change across the
board. This is the only group that I belong to so far that is updated. So, the
members should be aware that any particular group could be using either method
of displaying attachments.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Just something else to confuse us geezers.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009
00:30
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: IMPORTANT!!!!! MESSAGE TO
ALL MEMBERS (was Re: [vintageHO] apology)
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT TO ALL GROUP MEMBERS
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
As of sometime on the 31st of March, Yahoo changed the way attachments are 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
delivered.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Now, instead of the photos showing automatically in the messages, there's a 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
clickable link at the end labeled "attachments"
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To see the attached picture, click on it, and it takes you to a folder on 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the group web site.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Anyone else, reading messages online or in digest mode can also see them, by 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
going on the left side of the home page, and under messages, clicking on 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
"attachments: " where the photos will be stored, each group in an
individual 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
folder. These also will be archived so later users can go back and see them 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Any questions on how this works, please ask, and I'll try to explain it 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
again (I'm not 100% clear on the ins and outs yet myself).
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
This is not my doing, it's how Yahoo chose to set it up so attachments are 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
stored again.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9393
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Some Vintage Film from Disney
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Interesting bunch of clips but I don’t
understand where the audio came from. 
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  The last 3 ½ - 4 minutes was originally
broadcast as part of the Walt Disney Presents TV show back around 1955 or 56.
The TV broadcast was quite a bit longer as I recall, going deeper into the
actual design and construction of Walt’s backyard railroad empire (I
should have such a backyard). And the gentleman in the plaid shirt and rumpled
hat is Walt Disney himself. He rode the box car as the locomotive wasn’t
there yet and he couldn’t wait to ride his rails. I remember watching the
show when it was originally aired. By that time I was into my teens and wouldn’t
be caught dead with my Mickey Mouse ears on anymore. But I still watched the
daily Mickey Mouse Club show, mainly hoping to get a few more glimpses of
Annette. Ah yes, it was a joy to watch her…ah…shall we say…develop.

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Larry
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009
00:46
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Some Vintage
Film from Disney
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Thought I would share this with the group,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm sure some of you recall this,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Was looking around Youtube for trains, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
came across this old piece of footage,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
I remember seeing some of this along time ago,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the guy on the box car on his belly I remembered, lol
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=o9LnZ52KTKg
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9394
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: IMPORTANT!!!!! MESSAGE TO ALL MEMBERS   (was Re: [vintageHO] apo
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Yahoo has said that it will take a couple weeks to implement this across all 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
groups that allow attachments.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
As moderators we have three choices.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Do it this new way
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Go back to the old way but then attachments will NOT be archived.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Do not allow attachments.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I chose to accept the new way, it may take a little getting used to, but at 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
least it allows ALL members to see the attachments.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 12:54 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! MESSAGE TO ALL MEMBERS (was Re: [vintageHO] 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
apology)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I noticed that when I posted the photo of my Mantua 0-6-0 drive. What's
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> interesting is Yahoo hasn't made this change across the board. This is the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> only group that I belong to so far that is updated. So, the members should
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> be aware that any particular group could be using either method of
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> displaying attachments.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Just something else to confuse us geezers.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9395
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: International/IMP PRR O1 model phases
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold, Jim H. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  A week or so ago, we were discussing the various differences in the International PRR O1 models imported over the years.  I went back through my not quite complete magazine library and compiled the following information from the ads and editorial content.  As a disclaimer, I am not yet satisfied with my research, and will likely go back and recheck, creating a spreadsheet that might make it easier to chart the different phases using our models.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   I still have to add the information form the catalogs on HO Seeker as well.  But for now, this will do, but caution anyone doing additional research to check back to the original sources as noted, as my work below should only be considered "draft" or "preliminary."  From this limited source of information, though, at least three, likely four and possibly a fifth(?) phase or run can be deduced over the ten or so years the model was available. Some changes between runs may have only been to the motor and running gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  "In 1949, International Model Products (IMP) began importing an HO scale brass locomotive kit from Japan, based upon the PRR O1 prototype, but incorporating different electric locomotive details such as the roof top "clerestory" box  found on some other non-PRR electric boxcabs.  A photo of this new scale model appeared in their advertisement in the June 1949 issue of Model Railroader. As this was the dawn of the imported brass HO scale locomotive age, generic models formed of brass sheet and often lacking rivet detail were often the rule. Four narrow side vents were modeled.  The drive system incorporated an older-style "6-24 volt AC/DC" motor that needed "a bridge rectifier to be installed to be able to perate on 12 volt DC."  The cost of the screwdriver assembly kit was $ ."
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  "In March of 1950, International's advertisement in Model Railroader  included the scale drawing of the O-1a seemingly copied from the Model Railroader Cyclopedia and noted that an improved model adhering to PRR prototype plans was then available with 12v. DC motors at $13.95.   Roof detail was now in general accord with PRR practice and the underframe had additional detail added as well such as air tanks. The 72" drivers were still large brass flanged discs versus the prototype's spoked drivers."
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  "The photo of the model that appears in the November, 1954 Railroad Model Craftsman Diesel and Electric Locomotive Directory includes a photo of the earliest, generic model, but correctly notes the newer kit's 12 volt motor and a revised price, $15. " 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  "A March, 1956 advertisement in RMC shows a new model, now having six noticeably wider vertical side vents, a wider belt rail, pantographs elevated on a two-beaded insulator setup and designated as an O1b. Kits were reduce in price to $12.50 and also available was a ready to run, but undecorated "Kustom-Bilt" model at $17.95."  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  "The February, 1959 RMC advertisement contains an ad photo of the same model, but now with pantographs installed on one glass bead insulator. The same issue's Test Track section contains an enlarged version of the same photo. Prices and availability were kept at 1956 levels. "
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  "In adding the two vertical center side vents and widening all six, the model makers most likely thought that they were increasing fidelity to the prototype. Unfortunately, it seems they were actually doing the opposite, all the while following the drawings in the Model Railroader Cyclopedia, which probably were based on preliminary construction drawings that might have not actually followed the prototypes as built or later modified.  International did get the headlights right with the barrel shaped Sunbeam units, which lasted on the two surviving prototypes into the 1960s." 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  "There are many sources for prototype information on the eight PRR O1 series locomotives, but a handy recent one is the softcover Pennsylania Electric Locomotives and MU Cars by Robert Liljestrand (Bob's Photos) and noted author David Sweetland that retails for $18.00 whig cover all PRR electrics and offeres good photos for the modeler."(c) W. Jay Wanczyk
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Please remember, these are preliminary findings based soley on the magazine ads and content!  But at least we have a beginning undersatnding of some of the the chronological changes. To be continued...
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9396
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: IMPORTANT!!!!! MESSAGE TO ALL MEMBERS   (was Re: [vintageHO] apo
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Don D,  cc Lennard S,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for this message. I am going to ask questions because I am slightly 
confused (really a lot). Can I now send an Email narrative to the group with 
attachments, as I use to do, and all members will have a way to view them no 
matter how the are set up    ???
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                             You know 
what I just went through trying to help those that couldn't receive pictures my 
way by asking Lennard S to post them as an album.  I could go back to my 
way so any information / narrative I send with  pictures can be viewed at 
the same time by all  ???  That way the information and pictures 
arrive at the same time and then Lennaard can just take the pictures and put in 
albums as he pleases.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                
It would simplify again what I know how to do, everyone can see the attachments 
and Lennard can still put in albums as he sees fit but less work all the way 
around. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                               
Please let this illiterate computer dinosaur know is I am right.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 1:30 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: IMPORTANT!!!!! MESSAGE TO ALL 
  MEMBERS (was Re: [vintageHO] apology)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT TO ALL GROUP MEMBERS

                                                                                                                                                                                  As of sometime on the 
  31st of March, Yahoo changed the way attachments are 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  delivered.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Now, instead of the photos showing automatically in the 
  messages, there's a 
                                                                                                                                                                                  clickable link at the end labeled "attachments"
                                                                                                                                                                                  To 
  see the attached picture, click on it, and it takes you to a folder on 
                                                                                                                                                                                  the 
  group web site.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyone else, reading messages online or in digest mode 
  can also see them, by 
                                                                                                                                                                                  going on the left side of the home page, and under 
  messages, clicking on 
                                                                                                                                                                                  "attachments: " where the photos will be stored, 
  each group in an individual 
                                                                                                                                                                                  folder. These also will be archived so later 
  users can go back and see them 
                                                                                                                                                                                  too.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Any questions on how this 
  works, please ask, and I'll try to explain it 
                                                                                                                                                                                  again (I'm not 100% clear on 
  the ins and outs yet myself).

                                                                                                                                                                                  This is not my doing, it's how Yahoo 
  chose to set it up so attachments are 
                                                                                                                                                                                  stored again.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don 
  Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9397
						From: Richard Moessner
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  The Bill Rau article was also reprinted by Kalmbach in a softcover book, "Building Your Own Model Cars and Locos". That was published in 1954 and had a cover price of $1.00. I picked up my copy in the late 1950's.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
The book has a number of other projects: the early "dollar car" models; a "kitchen-table" 4-4-0 made from Mantua mechanism parts with a wooden boiler made from a piece of shovel handle(?); Thornburgh brass old-time passenger cars; and an Alco RS-3 from brass with a Lindsay drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
I built a couple of the hopper car models and then one ore car. I stopped at that point; building that first ore car, strip by strip, was fun. The prospect of building maybe 49 more was daunting.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dick Moessner
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   > > --- On Thu, 4/2/09, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 6:04 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> I've posted the five pages I have of the 1954 Bill Rau
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> article,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> Building Old Time Cars, in the groups files section.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> Sorry about this being scans of late 60's photocopies
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> done in the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> local library. The quality of the images would be a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> better with
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> todays scanners compared to the old 60's photocopiers.	
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9398
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Attached photo test
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 




 


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello, I have attached a photo of a model a friend of mine
built.  This is to see how the photos now show up, so we can better understand
this new process.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  As there is some place we should click on to see the photo.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 


                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9399
						From: Mike Sloane
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Attached photo test
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  It worked for me - I just clicked on it, and it opened up the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
"attachments" section under "messages". Nice work, by the way.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chuck Higdon wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hello, I have attached a photo of a model a friend of mine built.  This 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> is to see how the photos now show up, so we can better understand this 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> new process.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> As there is some place we should click on to see the photo.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9400
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Coke Car (fuel) by Gerard F. Engels
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 4/3/2009 9:19:59 PM EDT, Ray asked:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  I wonder if they ran unit coke trains between Solvay, NY and Delray, MI.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  ----------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  To which the answer is "No."  Coke was not used in the Solvay process (the actual process) nor at the Solvay Process Co. plants.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  From the Rhode Island Historical Society web site:  "The Semet-Solvay Company was founded in 1895, and operated a string of coke ovens across the country that produced ammonia and tar by-products."  It was the ammonia produced by Semet-Solvay that IS used in the Solvay process.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I used to live in Syracuse and had a friend who lived across the street from the now-demolished (1985) Allied Chemical (former Solvay Process) plant.  His bedroom overlooked the engine house for their rather extensive in-plant railroad.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph B.

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 or less.                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9401
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Attached photo test
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Under the text of the message the photos
appear.  There were two photo in an email Thursday or Friday that appeared
this way also.  Looking though the message history, I do not see a way to
tell if a photo is attached in the condensed view.  If you view the whole
message the photo is there.  I do not get the digest, so have no knowledge
of what appears there.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Ray W., I see you posted a list, that I
missed, but now will get it loaded over the weekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Chuck Higdon
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009
10:58 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Attached
photo test
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello, I
have attached a photo of a model a friend of mine built.  This is to see
how the photos now show up, so we can better understand this new process.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  As there is
some place we should click on to see the photo.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9402
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Some Vintage Film from Disney
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  And on the one showing Ward Kimball's Grizzly Flats 
operation, we get to see Kimball in the cab of the locomotive (and perhaps 
otherwise).  Of course, it is a much younger version than most had become 
accustomed to seeing in his later years with the big round black glasses 
frames.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Shameless further off topic plug 
follows:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I also noticed some other selected youtube viewing 
popped up for the trains running at the Santa Margarita ranch in 
California.  I live near there and volunteer every year a little bit.  
It is three foot gauge with real engines (former industrially used), but they 
pull ex Disneyland coaches.  Last year they completely finished restoring 
one of the coaches.  The coaches are built to 5/8 scale so the seating is a 
little tight, especially to so many of today's calorie prone.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  This year, the big day at Santa Margarita is only 
one day, Saturday, May 12.  Here is a link that mentions it: http://www.slorrm.com/events.html
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  In past years, and I assume this year also, they 
have a gas engine club (hit and miss and small stationary steam engines) display 
things.  And old cars.  And some real railroad speeders.  There 
are vendors inside a historic barn on the ranch (built in the late 
1700's).  Either the county band or a local country/western band.  
It's an "E Ticket ride" (with apologies to Disney).
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck K.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  John Hagen 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 12:00 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Some Vintage 
  Film from Disney
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Interesting bunch of 
  clips but I don’t understand where the audio came from. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  The last 3 ½ - 4 
  minutes was originally broadcast as part of the Walt Disney Presents TV show 
  back around 1955 or 56. The TV broadcast was quite a bit longer as I recall, 
  going deeper into the actual design and construction of Walt’s backyard 
  railroad empire (I should have such a backyard). And the gentleman in the 
  plaid shirt and rumpled hat is Walt Disney himself. He rode the box car as the 
  locomotive wasn’t there yet and he couldn’t wait to ride his rails. I remember 
  watching the show when it was originally aired. By that time I was into my 
  teens and wouldn’t be caught dead with my Mickey Mouse ears on anymore. But I 
  still watched the daily Mickey Mouse Club show, mainly hoping to get a few 
  more glimpses of Annette. Ah yes, it was a joy to watch her…ah…shall we 
  say…develop. 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western 
  Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical 
  Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Larry
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 
  00:46
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Some Vintage Film 
  from Disney
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Thought I 
  would share this with the group,
                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm sure some of you recall this,
                                                                                                                                                                                  Was 
  looking around Youtube for trains, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  came across this old piece of 
  footage,
                                                                                                                                                                                  I remember seeing some of this along time ago,
                                                                                                                                                                                  the guy on the 
  box car on his belly I remembered, lol

                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=o9LnZ52KTKg
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9403
						From: Fred Hultberg
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Attached photo test Comment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Seems to work OK, although it's slow as I am on a dial-up connection. Can't say it's any slower than before, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Am I the only one on a dial-up?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  T I A 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Sat, 4/4/09, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Attached photo test
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 10:57 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  





                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello, I have attached a photo of a model a friend of mine built.  This is to see how the photos now show up, so we can better understand this new process.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  As there is some place we should click on to see the photo.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  1 of 1 Photo(s) 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9404
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: attached photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                         I have 
attached 2 photos to this Email to see if I can send using the new Yahoo set up. 
Will somebody please respond especially if you were a person who wouldn't get 
them normally. I am sending this from my camera program as I normally did 
attached to an Email. I was one of the guilty ones who did it this way as 
it was easiest and best for me. I hope this new Yahoo system works so all can 
see.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          
 First        Varney Yellowstone. One of 
my favorite collection items. The V-2 motor it takes is sitting on my work bench 
as I am to lazy to install and to far behind on other 
projects.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           
Second    Varney pre war wood aluminum, and cardboard embossed 
tender. This is a newly found item, not listed in the Varney Guide but verified 
by Dave Spanagel. It is longer then the pre war square back tender listed in the 
Varney book and takes trucks with 3 axles.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     Lennard S.   If these 
come through would you put them in the album(s) you are creating with a 
shortened explanation of what they are.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9405
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: attached photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  The first link took me right to this picture of a brass 2-8-8-4, the second link didn't work, however, yahoo said it was their problem, however, I was able to view the tender from the first link as well, as both photos were there on the same site.............:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2009 12:39:02 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] attached photos

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         I have attached 2 photos to this Email to see if I can send using the new Yahoo set up. Will somebody please respond especially if you were a person who wouldn't get them normally. I am sending this from my camera program as I normally did attached to an Email. I was one of the guilty ones who did it this way as it was easiest and best for me. I hope this new Yahoo system works so all can see.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           First        Varney Yellowstone. One of my favorite collection items. The V-2 motor it takes is sitting on my work bench as I am to lazy to install and to far behind on other projects.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           Second    Varney pre war wood aluminum, and cardboard embossed tender. This is a newly found item, not listed in the Varney Guide but verified by Dave Spanagel. It is longer then the pre war square back tender listed in the Varney book and takes trucks with 3 axles.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     Lennard S.   If these come through would you put them in the album(s) you are creating with a shortened explanation of what they are.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9406
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Attached photo test Comment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  About 1 year ago I discovered that my local cable vendor
                                                                                                                                                                                  
has a $19.95 per month 150kb internet.  That is only
                                                                                                                                                                                  
$5/month more than what I was paying for dialup - easy
                                                                                                                                                                                  
decision for me.  I also add that the dialup only
                                                                                                                                                                                  
ran at 28kb thanks to lousy phone lines.  You can
                                                                                                                                                                                  
imagine how happy I am now.  They also offered 4 other
                                                                                                                                                                                  
speeds at various price points - even 20mb but that
                                                                                                                                                                                  
is $50/month.  I'm too much of a cheapskate to pay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
that.  The 150kb was not advertised - you had
                                                                                                                                                                                  
to ask for it.  Word of mouth did wonders for this
                                                                                                                                                                                  
service.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Seems to work OK, although it's slow as I am on a dial-up connection. Can't say it's any slower than before, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Am I the only one on a dial-up?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> T I A 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- On Sat, 4/4/09, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: [vintageHO] Attached photo test
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 10:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hello, I have attached a photo of a model a friend of mine built.  This is to see how the photos now show up, so we can better understand this new process.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> As there is some place we should click on to see the photo.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 1 of 1 Photo(s) 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> bob11307.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9407
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: International/IMP PRR O1 model phases
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                               
Thanks for the information. Great stuff. Will be put in my HO Bible of 
facts.  Question. How do you do all this combining information, send it to 
group, looks like no mistakes and willing to share ???  Especially where do 
you find the time ?  While it doesn't really matter because it sure saves 
me time from researching myself.  Many thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 9:07 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 
  International/IMP PRR O1 model phases
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold, Jim H. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  A week or so ago, we were discussing the various differences in the 
  International PRR O1 models imported over the 
  years.  I went back through my not quite complete magazine library and 
  compiled the following information from the ads and editorial content.  
  As a disclaimer, I am not yet satisfied with my research, and will likely go 
  back and recheck, creating a spreadsheet that might make it easier to chart 
  the different phases using our models.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   I still have to add the information form the catalogs on HO Seeker as 
  well.  But for now, this will do, but caution anyone doing additional 
  research to check back to the original sources as noted, as my work below 
  should only be considered "draft" or "preliminary. "  From this 
  limited source of information, though, at least three, likely four and 
  possibly a fifth(?) phase or run can be deduced over the ten or so years the 
  model was available. Some changes between runs may have only been to the motor 
  and running gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  "In 1949, International Model 
  Products (IMP) began importing an HO scale brass locomotive kit from Japan, 
  based upon the PRR O1 prototype, but incorporating different electric 
  locomotive details such as the roof top "clerestory" box  found on some 
  other non-PRR electric boxcabs.  A photo of this new scale model appeared 
  in their advertisement in the June 1949 issue of Model Railroader. As 
  this was the dawn of the imported brass HO scale locomotive age, generic 
  models formed of brass sheet and often lacking rivet detail were often the 
  rule. Four narrow side vents were modeled.  The drive 
  system incorporated an older-style "6-24 volt AC/DC" motor that needed "a 
  bridge rectifier to be installed to be able to perate on 12 volt DC."  
  The cost of the screwdriver assembly kit was $ ."
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  "In March of 1950, International' s advertisement 
  in Model Railroader  included the scale drawing of the O-1a 
  seemingly copied from the Model Railroader Cyclopedia and noted that an 
  improved model adhering to PRR prototype plans was then available with 12v. DC 
  motors at $13.95.   Roof detail was now in general accord with PRR 
  practice and the underframe had additional detail added as well such as air 
  tanks. The 72" drivers were still large brass flanged discs versus the 
  prototype's spoked drivers."
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  "The photo of the model that appears in the November, 
  1954 Railroad Model Craftsman Diesel and Electric Locomotive Directory 
  includes a photo of the earliest, generic model, but correctly notes the newer 
  kit's 12 volt motor and a revised price, $15. " 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  "A March, 1956 advertisement in RMC shows a new 
  model, now having six noticeably wider vertical side vents, a 
  wider belt rail, pantographs elevated on a two-beaded 
  insulator setup and designated as an O1b. Kits were reduce in price 
  to $12.50 and also available was a ready to run, but undecorated "Kustom-Bilt" 
  model at $17.95."  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  "The February, 1959 RMC advertisement contains 
  an ad photo of the same model, but now with pantographs installed on 
  one glass bead insulator. The same issue's Test Track section 
  contains an enlarged version of the same photo. Prices and availability were 
  kept at 1956 levels. "
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  "In adding the two vertical center side vents and 
  widening all six, the model makers most likely thought that they were 
  increasing fidelity to the prototype. Unfortunately, it seems they were 
  actually doing the opposite, all the while following the drawings in the Model 
  Railroader Cyclopedia, which probably were based on preliminary construction 
  drawings that might have not actually followed the prototypes as built or 
  later modified.  International did get the headlights 
  right with the barrel shaped Sunbeam units, which lasted on the 
  two surviving prototypes into the 1960s." 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  "There are many sources for prototype information on 
  the eight PRR O1 series locomotives, but a handy recent one is the softcover 
  Pennsylania Electric Locomotives and MU Cars by Robert Liljestrand 
  (Bob's Photos) and noted author David Sweetland that retails for $18.00 whig 
  cover all PRR electrics and offeres good photos for the modeler."(c) W. Jay 
  Wanczyk
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Please remember, these are preliminary findings based 
  soley on the magazine ads and content!  But at least we have a beginning 
  undersatnding of some of the the chronological changes. To be 
  continued...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9408
						From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO 
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                                  
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
group.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  File        : /V List A-C Model Co., L-W Model Co. cars.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Description : List of A-C Models, then L-W Models items. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20A-C%20Model%20Co.%2C%20L-W%20Model%20Co.%20cars.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9409
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Attached photo test
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Clicking on the thumbnail or the hotlink (I think different mail readers 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
will display one or the other) takes you to an "attachment" folder where the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
photo can be viewed in a large size.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Those who read "on line" can go right to the "attachments" link under 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
"messages" on the home page, and I believe there will be a clickable link in 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the digest mode as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 9:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Attached photo test
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hello, I have attached a photo of a model a friend of mine built.  This is
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> to see how the photos now show up, so we can better understand this new
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> process.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> As there is some place we should click on to see the photo.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9410
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: IMPORTANT!!!!! MESSAGE TO ALL MEMBERS   (was Re: [vintageHO] apo
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  In answer to your first question, yes, anyone can now see the pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
As far as your second comment, do whatever works for you.  The attachments 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
folders do does count towards our allotted photo space, but that's 1 gig of 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
space, since the group began we've used up about 1% of that (not even enough 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
to show up on the usage graph).
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Cc: <lennard@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 8:36 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT!!!!! MESSAGE TO ALL MEMBERS (was Re: [vintageHO] 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
apology)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Hi Don D,  cc Lennard S,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                Thanks for this message. I am going to ask questions because 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
I am slightly confused (really a lot). Can I now send an Email narrative to 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the group with attachments, as I use to do, and all members will have a way 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
to view them no matter how the are set up    ???
                                                                                                                                                                                  
           You know what I just went through trying to help those that 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
couldn't receive pictures my way by asking Lennard S to post them as an 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
album.  I could go back to my way so any information / narrative I send with 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
pictures can be viewed at the same time by all  ???  That way the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
information and pictures arrive at the same time and then Lennaard can just 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
take the pictures and put in albums as he pleases.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
              It would simplify again what I know how to do, everyone can 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
see the attachments and Lennard can still put in albums as he sees fit but 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
less work all the way around.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
             Please let this illiterate computer dinosaur know is I am 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
right.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                  
     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 1:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Subject: IMPORTANT!!!!! MESSAGE TO ALL MEMBERS (was Re: [vintageHO] 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
apology)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT TO ALL GROUP MEMBERS
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  As of sometime on the 31st of March, Yahoo changed the way attachments are
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  delivered.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Now, instead of the photos showing automatically in the messages, there's 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
a
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  clickable link at the end labeled "attachments"
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  To see the attached picture, click on it, and it takes you to a folder on
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  the group web site.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Anyone else, reading messages online or in digest mode can also see them, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
by
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  going on the left side of the home page, and under messages, clicking on
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  "attachments:" where the photos will be stored, each group in an 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
individual
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  folder. These also will be archived so later users can go back and see 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
them
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Any questions on how this works, please ask, and I'll try to explain it
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  again (I'm not 100% clear on the ins and outs yet myself).
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  This is not my doing, it's how Yahoo chose to set it up so attachments are
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  stored again.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9411
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Attached photo test Comment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Wow, do they still have dial-up? Oh, wait, this IS 
vintageHO. ;-) (ha)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 12:35 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Attached photo 
  test Comment
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Seems to work OK, although it's slow as I am on a dial-up 
        connection. Can't say it's any slower than before, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Am I the only one on a dial-up?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  T I A 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On 
        Sat, 4/4/09, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> 
        wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        

                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
          Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: 
          [vintageHO] Attached photo test
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
          vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 10:57 
          AM

                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          

          

          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello, I have attached a 
          photo of a model a friend of mine built.  This is to see how the 
          photos now show up, so we can better understand this new 
          process.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  As there is some place we 
          should click on to see the photo.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                   
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at 
          http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                   
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          

                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  1 of 1 Photo(s) 
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          

                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9412
						From: Bill Fornshell
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
What is a "xls file"?  I have a new Mac and it doesn't understand what it is.  Can you turn it into a "pdf"?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Bill in Texas
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Sat, 4/4/09, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: [vintageHO] New file uploaded to vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 12:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> group.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   File        : /V List A-C Model Co., L-W Model Co.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> cars.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Description : List of A-C Models, then L-W Models items. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20A-C%20Model%20Co.%2C%20L-W%20Model%20Co.%20cars.xls
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9413
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  .xls is an Excel file.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
If you want, and it works with MAC, download the MS Excel Viewer from this site:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.cyberwalker.com/article/238
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I am getting away from Gates and Co. as fast as I can, and use OpenOffice for all my stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.openoffice.org/
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Supposedly works with Mac.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   > Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> What is a "xls file"?  I have a new Mac and it doesn't understand what it is.  Can you turn it into a "pdf"?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Bill in Texas
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- On Sat, 4/4/09, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Subject: [vintageHO] New file uploaded to vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 12:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > group.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   File        : /V List A-C Model Co., L-W Model Co.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > cars.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   Description : List of A-C Models, then L-W Models items. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20A-C%20Model%20Co.%2C%20L-W%20Model%20Co.%20cars.xls
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9414
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  If nobody else can, just let me know and I can do it.  FYI, you can go to openoffice.org and download Open Office, which will allow you to convert most Microsoft document, excel files and power points to PDF's.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                  Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Sat, 4/4/09, Bill Fornshell <bfornshell@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Bill Fornshell <bfornshell@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New file uploaded to vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 2:19 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi,

                                                                                                                                                                                  What is a "xls file"? I have a new Mac and it doesn't understand what it is. Can you turn it into a "pdf"?

                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill in Texas

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Sat, 4/4/09, vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
 Subject: [vintageHO] New file uploaded to vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 12:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                                  > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > group.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > File : /V List A-C Model Co., L-W Model Co.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > cars.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@verizon. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Description : List of A-C Models, then L-W Models items. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ files/V%20List% 20A-C%20Model% 20Co.%2C% 20L-W%20Model% 20Co.%20cars. xls
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please
                                                                                                                                                                                  > visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://help. yahoo.com/ l/us/yahoo/ groups/original/ members/web/ index.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@verizon. net>


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9415
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Penn Line photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                         Before this 
new Yahoo viewing system came to be I had made arrangements with Lennard S to 
post all pictures in albums so all could see. One of the first things I was 
going to do was send Lennard pictures direct to start the process.  It 
happened to be that I ask first about starting with Penn Line, not Bowser) 
items. I would send pictures from my collection of steam, diesel, 
electrics and passenger cars (both heavyweight and streamlined types 
showing the different passenger cars Penn Line sold).
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        A couple of the 
engines pictures had been sent for other reasons before and not received by 
some. Through the kindness of Chuck H he entered some into an album that bears 
the name "Jim Heckard Collection". These albums by Lennard will be more 
complete. A few of the engines have been pictured before but these will be all 
new and hopefully better. These first 3 items have appeared before but later 
pictures will be different.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        It is my hope 
that my extensive collection, covering most vintage companies from 1936 ( which 
I will add as time permits) will be beneficial in some way to others 
and because of Lennard S will be permanent for all to view.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          Pictures 1 & 
2    Penn Line 4-6-2  Reading Crusader and tender. This 
model was originally a kit that some had assembled after painting the engine 
black where the Crusader blue should have been. I took it all apart. (it was in 
good shape otherwise with minor things wrong) and repainted it. I got a sheet of 
the original decals and with an ALPs printer made a number of sets for friends 
and myself. Sorry the pictures might have a flash spot. Not the best with the 
camera
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          Picture 
3 & 4      Penn Line (Not Bowser) 4-4-4-4 T-1 with 
double motor. I can't take credit for assembling or painting / decaling this 
engine as I bought it as is years ago. After minor repairs and a lube and oil 
job this runs beautiful.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          
Picture  5 & 6     Penn Line (Not Bowser) 2-10-0 
Decapod    This was a kit I built, painted and 
decaled.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    The next Penn Line steam pictures I 
send will be factory painted that I never sent before. I do not "touch up" 
or repaint factory painted items even steam. Hope someone will enjoy a long walk 
down memory lane. Complaints or kudos can be sent direct to jimheck@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9416
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: IMPORTANT!!!!! MESSAGE TO ALL MEMBERS (was Re: [vintageHO] apolo
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  
OKIE DOKIE, not much to do but try to enjoy them I guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Be Yourself @ mail.com!
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Get a Free Account at www.mail.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9417
						From: Fred Hultberg
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Nice models!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  (I like the new "posting of pics" method, too. I get them all in one download.)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks, Jim!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Happy Modeling
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Fred Hultberg(resident etching wiard, Fotocut)

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Sat, 4/4/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line photos
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Cc: lennard@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 3:56 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  





                                                                                                                                                                                         Before this new Yahoo viewing system came to be I had made arrangements with Lennard S to post all pictures in albums so all could see. One of the first things I was going to do was send Lennard pictures direct to start the process.  It happened to be that I ask first about starting with Penn Line, not Bowser) items. I would send pictures from my collection of steam, diesel, electrics and passenger cars (both heavyweight and streamlined types showing the different passenger cars Penn Line sold).
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        A couple of the engines pictures had been sent for other reasons before and not received by some. Through the kindness of Chuck H he entered some into an album that bears the name "Jim Heckard Collection". These albums by Lennard will be more complete. A few of the engines have been pictured before but these will be all new and hopefully better. These first 3 items have appeared before but later pictures will be different.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        It is my hope that my extensive collection, covering most vintage companies from 1936 ( which I will add as time permits) will be beneficial in some way to others and because of Lennard S will be permanent for all to view.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          Pictures 1 & 2    Penn Line 4-6-2  Reading Crusader and tender. This model was originally a kit that some had assembled after painting the engine black where the Crusader blue should have been. I took it all apart. (it was in good shape otherwise with minor things wrong) and repainted it. I got a sheet of the original decals and with an ALPs printer made a number of sets for friends and myself. Sorry the pictures might have a flash spot. Not the best with the camera
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          Picture 3 & 4      Penn Line (Not Bowser) 4-4-4-4 T-1 with double motor. I can't take credit for assembling or painting / decaling this engine as I bought it as is years ago. After minor repairs and a lube and oil job this runs beautiful.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          Picture  5 & 6     Penn Line (Not Bowser) 2-10-0 Decapod    This was a kit I built, painted and decaled.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    The next Penn Line steam pictures I send will be factory painted that I never sent before. I do not "touch up" or repaint factory painted items even steam. Hope someone will enjoy a long walk down memory lane. Complaints or kudos can be sent direct to jimheck@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  6 of 6 Photo(s) 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  





                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9418
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Attached photo test Comment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Yes, people DO have dial-up.  If I lived about three blocks down the street 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
from where I am I probably couldn't have gotten DSL, I'd have been too far 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
from the nearest switching station, and not everyone wants to waste their 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
hard-earned money on Cable TV just to get a cable connection.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 1:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Attached photo test Comment
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Wow, do they still have dial-up? Oh, wait, this IS vintageHO. ;-) (ha)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: Fred Hultberg
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 12:35 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Attached photo test Comment
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
        Seems to work OK, although it's slow as I am on a dial-up 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
connection. Can't say it's any slower than before, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
        Am I the only one on a dial-up?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
        T I A
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
        Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
        --- On Sat, 4/4/09, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
          From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          Subject: [vintageHO] Attached photo test
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 10:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
          Hello, I have attached a photo of a model a friend of mine built. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
This is to see how the photos now show up, so we can better understand this 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
new process.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
          As there is some place we should click on to see the photo.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
          Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
          1 of 1 Photo(s)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
          bob11307.jpg 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9419
						From: bayerw@comcast.net
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Open Office has a Mac version. Works well IMHO.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Walter



                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2009 3:43:21 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO

                                                                                                                                                                                  




 



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  .xls is an Excel file.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
If you want, and it works with MAC, download the MS Excel Viewer from this site:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.cyberwalker.com/article/238
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I am getting away from Gates and Co. as fast as I can, and use OpenOffice for all my stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.openoffice.org/
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Supposedly works with Mac.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> What is a "xls file"?  I have a new Mac and it doesn't understand what it is.  Can you turn it into a "pdf"?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Bill in Texas
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- On Sat, 4/4/09, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Subject: [vintageHO] New file uploaded to vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 12:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > group.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   File        : /V List A-C Model Co., L-W Model Co.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > cars.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   Description : List of A-C Models, then L-W Models items. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20A-C%20Model%20Co.%2C%20L-W%20Model%20Co.%20cars.xls
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
	
	




	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9420
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: More Penn Line seam
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                           
These pictures are more Penn Line steam. These are all factory painted and 
numbered except for the last picture that is still in kit form. The numbers on 
these engines are  pretty standard factory numbers. Since P.L. had high 
school teenagers to come in to do some work and became bored, for the fun of it 
they played with the numbers so there could be factory painted numbers other 
then these. Most steam was factory painted for the Pennsylvania but I have seen 
collectors have mint in box PL steam lettered for the Southern 
Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       Remember since these are 
factory painted they have NOT been retouched or repainted. None of these 
are Bowser
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         Picture 1 
& 2     2-8-2 Mikado and tender
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         Picture 3 
& 4     4-4-2 Atlantic with tender
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         Picture 5 
& 6     2-8-0 Heavy Consolidation and 
tender
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         Picture 
7           4-6-2 Pacific 
still in kit form in early brown with white colored box. (Later boxes were red 
and white stripped)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                             As you can 
see by the same tender being used on these it was the basic Penn Line tender. 
Did you know that this tender design was first designed and actually sold by 
John English ( I have one in box with plans to back this up ). Also the 
Consolidation was an original design of John English as far a major body parts. 
John English made and sold a three piece kit containing a boiler, frame and 
cylinders that camewith JE plans and in his box (I have this to back this up). 
These plans showed you how using the 3 major John English parts you could make 
the 2-8-0.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      More Penn Line pieces later. 
Four different PL GG-1 paint schemes. I'm hoping people don't get mad at me 
sending these. I am a firm believer in a picture worth a thousand words 
plus having a sample in ones hands is very helpful.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9421
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Penn Line GG-1's
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      These four pictures are all Penn 
Line factory painted GG-1's (none are the HOTCO/HO Train CO copy). The Penn Line 
GG-1 was not to full scale but shorter. Don't shoot the messenger as you look at 
the railroad names on two. We all know only the Pennsy had the GG-1 but Penn 
Line decided other roads should.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           
First picture         Pennsylvania 
Tuscan Red
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           
Second  pic         Pennsylvania 
Brunswick Green (no matter how close I get or different light it still looks 
black to me.)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           Third 
picture        Great Northern (This is 
mint)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           Fourth 
pic           New 
Haven
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Time for a coffee and to read a 
paper. More Penn Line tomorrow. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9422
						From: Fred Hultberg
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Attached photo test Comment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Out here in the "relative boonies" many people still have dial-up.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  As Don mentioned, cable or satellite is often not worth the money(considering what's "on") and the DSL here is tightly controlled by the phone company; it's them or nuttin' and their service isn't so great.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hence, dial-up. It's adequate for most e-mail and web cruising if you have coffee to make, dog to pet or let in and out, coal to bring in, etc. I do skip most "youtube" stuff, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  yours
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Sat, 4/4/09, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Attached photo test Comment
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 6:19 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Yes, people DO have dial-up.  If I lived about three blocks down the street 
                                                                                                                                                                                  from where I am I probably couldn't have gotten DSL, I'd have been too far 
                                                                                                                                                                                  from the nearest switching station, and not everyone wants to waste their 
                                                                                                                                                                                  hard-earned money on Cable TV just to get a cable connection.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 1:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Attached photo test Comment


                                                                                                                                                                                  Wow, do they still have dial-up? Oh, wait, this IS vintageHO. ;-) (ha)

                                                                                                                                                                                  Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Fred Hultberg
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 12:35 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Attached
 photo test Comment


                                                                                                                                                                                          Seems to work OK, although it's slow as I am on a dial-up 
                                                                                                                                                                                  connection. Can't say it's any slower than before, though.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Am I the only one on a dial-up?

                                                                                                                                                                                          T I A

                                                                                                                                                                                          Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

                                                                                                                                                                                          --- On Sat, 4/4/09, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:


                                                                                                                                                                                            From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: [vintageHO] Attached photo test
                                                                                                                                                                                            To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                            Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 10:57 AM


                                                                                                                                                                                            Hello, I have attached a photo of a model a friend of mine built. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  This is to see how the photos now show up, so we can better understand this 
                                                                                                                                                                                  new process.

                                                                                                                                                                                            As there is some place we should click on to see the photo.



                                                                                                                                                                                            Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at 
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104





                                                                                                                                                                                            1 of 1 Photo(s)

                                                                                                                                                                                           
 bob11307.jpg








                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------------------------------

                                                                                                                                                                                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                                                                                                                                                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                                                                                                                                                                  <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9423
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Attached photo test Comment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  



 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  There are a lot of services that are dependent on 
Ma Bell's wires--if you are more than a couple of miles from the switching 
center, you are stuck with dial-up unless you go to a totally different 
system--mine is wireless, other choice was the TV cable co, but their repair 
service leaves a lot to be desired.   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 11:54 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Attached photo 
  test Comment
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Wow, do they still have dial-up? Oh, wait, this 
  IS vintageHO. ;-) (ha)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 12:35 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Attached photo 
    test Comment
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  Seems to work OK, although it's slow as I am on a dial-up 
          connection. Can't say it's any slower than before, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  Am I the only one on a dial-up?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  T I A 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On 
          Sat, 4/4/09, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> 
          wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          

                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
            Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: 
            [vintageHO] Attached photo test
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
            vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 10:57 
            AM

                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  
            

            

            
                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello, I have attached a 
            photo of a model a friend of mine built.  This is to see how 
            the photos now show up, so we can better understand this new 
            process.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  As there is some place 
            we should click on to see the photo.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                   
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at 
            http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                   
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  
            

                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  1 of 1 Photo(s) 
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  
            

                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  
            

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

                                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.41/2040 - Release 
  Date: 04/03/09 17:54:00
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9424
						From: Nelson
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: attached photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  It works fine, Jim, aside from the "999" error Gary mentioned, but as he said you can view both photos when you link to the first. Yahoo is having a few hiccups, obviously.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
This is a much better system for me, as I've chosen the digest option and have it sent to my Yahoo email account, which strips out the attachments. I tried the individual email option, but it was too much spam to contend with. Now I'll be able to keep up with your projects, and not have to pester you to resend photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>        I have attached 2 photos to this Email to see if I can send using the new Yahoo set up. Will somebody please respond especially if you were a person who wouldn't get them normally. I am sending this from my camera program as I normally did attached to an Email. I was one of the guilty ones who did it this way as it was easiest and best for me. I hope this new Yahoo system works so all can see.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>          First        Varney Yellowstone. One of my favorite collection items. The V-2 motor it takes is sitting on my work bench as I am to lazy to install and to far behind on other projects.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>          Second    Varney pre war wood aluminum, and cardboard embossed tender. This is a newly found item, not listed in the Varney Guide but verified by Dave Spanagel. It is longer then the pre war square back tender listed in the Varney book and takes trucks with 3 axles.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>    Lennard S.   If these come through would you put them in the album(s) you are creating with a shortened explanation of what they are.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9425
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Jim H and Others on Varney Casey Jones
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  I'd just like to thank everyone for all the information on what was 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
my first HO locomotive, the Varney 4-6-0.  Wonderful history has 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
developed over the past few days on this List.  I've just completed 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
saving all of it to put with my models.  I also am currently awaiting 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
two Varney 4-6-0's I bought on ebay.  I thought I paid a bit too much 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
for one; OK on the other.  One from each of the first two runs.   I 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
have no illusion of their arriving in pristine condition, so I expect 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
to be looking for parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I really appreciate being here.  I  checked into this List to find 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
out a couple things about what I'd had in my past, and now I can see 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
it has changed my entire outlook on older HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Could be good; could be bad, (grin).
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Cheers,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9426
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Jim H and Others on Varney Casey Jones
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Glad we could help. This has to be one of the most knowledgeable groups on all 
vintage HO. Someone usually knows something about everything.  And just 
because somebody might feel they are a beginner they still should speak up if 
they have something to add. It might be that one little bit of information that 
ties everything together. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Good luck with your projects. Parts while maybe hard to come by but they are out 
there. "Seek and ye shall find" Doesn't hurt to ask.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 11:06 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Jim H and Others on 
  Varney Casey Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  I'd just like to thank everyone for all the information on what was 
                                                                                                                                                                                  my 
  first HO locomotive, the Varney 4-6-0. Wonderful history has 
                                                                                                                                                                                  developed 
  over the past few days on this List. I've just completed 
                                                                                                                                                                                  saving all of it 
  to put with my models. I also am currently awaiting 
                                                                                                                                                                                  two Varney 4-6-0's I 
  bought on ebay. I thought I paid a bit too much 
                                                                                                                                                                                  for one; OK on the other. 
  One from each of the first two runs. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                  have no illusion of their arriving 
  in pristine condition, so I expect 
                                                                                                                                                                                  to be looking for parts.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I 
  really appreciate being here. I checked into this List to find 
                                                                                                                                                                                  out a 
  couple things about what I'd had in my past, and now I can see 
                                                                                                                                                                                  it has 
  changed my entire outlook on older HO.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Could be good; could be bad, 
  (grin).

                                                                                                                                                                                  Cheers,
                                                                                                                                                                                  Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                  Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA 
  state

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9427
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  There is another Mac Office bundle described as a Mac-ified Open Office......

                                                                                                                                                                                  NeoOffice........ "A free software port of OpenOffice.org to the MacOS X platform."

                                                                                                                                                                                  "NeoOffice is a full-featured set of office applications (including word processing, spreadsheet, presentation, drawing, and database programs) for Mac OS X. Based on the OpenOffice.org office suite, NeoOffice has integrated dozens of native Mac features and can import, edit, and exchange files with other popular office programs such as Microsoft Office."

                                                                                                                                                                                  I use it and like it.........


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  On Apr 4, 2009, at 2:43 PM, curmudgeon wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  .xls is an Excel file.
                                                                                                                                                                                  If you want, and it works with MAC, download the MS Excel Viewer from this site:
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.cyberwalker.com/article/238

                                                                                                                                                                                  I am getting away from Gates and Co. as fast as I can, and use OpenOffice for all my stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.openoffice.org/

                                                                                                                                                                                  Supposedly works with Mac.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi,

                                                                                                                                                                                  What is a "xls file"?  I have a new Mac and it doesn't understand what it is.  Can you turn it into a "pdf"?

                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill in Texas


                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Sat, 4/4/09, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello,

                                                                                                                                                                                  This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                                  a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  group.

                                                                                                                                                                                    File        : /V List A-C Model Co., L-W Model Co.
                                                                                                                                                                                  cars.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Uploaded by : chuckie208755 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9428
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Penn Line GP-7/9 & F-7
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                         More Penn 
Line. This part of the Penn Line history concerning these diesels will 
be rather long to explain especially the F-7 story. I hope I make no mistakes. 
The first part about the GP-7/9 will be easy. I apologize for the amount of 
pictures. I even cut the amount down and still hope to be able to 
fully explain. This should be the only time I will need this many pictures. 
 I will not be talking about the road names Penn Line used on these 
diesels, just the different versions.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          First 
picture  GP-7/9 ?  This is a Penn Line single truck drive driven 
by a coil spring. The body frame, trucks and side frames are 
metal by Penn Line. The body is Athearn. Athearn bodies were used on this Geep 
for the history of Penn Line. (That was the easy part)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  On to the F-7's. The first F-7's PL sold was a set 
containing a powered F-7, Dummy -7 with horn and Fleischman passenger cars in 
Northern Pacific livery. No picture. I have a complete set on the way but 
not here yet so I can't really discuss this.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          Second 
picture is to show the first bodies, with longer steps, were Athearn 
 then created  their own bodies with the shorter steps. Hopefully 
you can see the difference on the picture.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          Third picture is an 
Athearn F-7 body on a Penn Line single coil spring driven truck with metal PL 
frame, truck and side frames.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          Fourth picture is a Penn 
Line F-7 that was unknown to me till this group pointed it out. It is a Penn 
Line body with 8 wheel Penn Line drive by using a drive shaft. It is unique 
in that both trucks attach to the body with little fingers that go into the 
ladders on the body. It is to fragile to take apart to show. People who ran this 
type engine said the ladders broke off easily from the poor design. Hard to take 
apart without breaking.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          Fifth picture is the last 
Penn Line F-7 drive . It is the Penn Line body with a Penn Line 8 wheel drive 
powered using a drive shaft. This unit was an improvement on the previous drive 
as it could be taken  off the body easily .
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           
Sixth and last picture is to show B units that could be bought both powered or 
Dummies, At first the dummy B's were Athearn bodies (longer step). I think, 
and correct me if I'm wrong, they used an Athearn dummy B plastic frame. 
Later Penn Line bodies (shorter step) using a Penn Line frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       Hopefully I have been able 
to explain the Penn Line F-7. I'm sorry it was so long and  so many 
pictures. I have read this over and reread for mistakes. If anyone sees 
something or has additional info jump in.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                       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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9429
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: more Penn Line
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                       The pictures are the three 
versions of the Penn Line "Whitcomb" midget diesel. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 
one.   D-1 (first version)   Body is made from lead. Detail 
on the hood is added.  Motor / Drive is pulleys using an O ring. Very 
unusual electrical pick up. (see HOseeker for paperwork)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 
two    D-2 version. Metal body with better detail especially 
rivets. Parts on top of hood are cast on. Motor / Drive is gear to gear with 
motor turned the opposite way from the D-1 version.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 
three   D-3 same body detail as D-2 version but made from molded 
plastic. Used the D-2 motor / drive 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        These pictures have 
appeared before and a discussion about the Penn Line Whitcomb took place. I'm 
sending these for new members, people whocould not get attachments and to 
Lennard S who is making my albums. I did have a picture sent to me, from a good 
friend and PL collector, of a Penn Line boxed, ready to run Whitcomb that 
was one with a PLASTIC body labeled for U.S. Steel. If this old brain 
remembers right the number for the item was 600.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       Next will be Penn Line 
passenger cars both Standard Heavyweight and Streamlined
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9430
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line GP-7/9 & F-7
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  My first Penn Line diesel was the one in picture three.  My only other 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
locomotive at the time was an Athearn rubber-band F-7.  It was so much of an 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
improvement that as soon as I could afford another engine I bought another 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Penn Line.  You can imagine my consternation when I got it home and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
discovered it was the one in picture 4.  I think it ran maybe a month before 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
one of the steps sheared off and it was junk.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have one of the drives like picture 5, doesn't run well enough to be worth 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
putting a shell on. :-(
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Even if the slot car craze hadn't put the last nail in the coffin, I think 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the "no. 4" drive would have been enough on it's own to push Penn Line over 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the edge.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 2:19 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line GP-7/9 & F-7
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
       More Penn Line. This part of the Penn Line history concerning these 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
diesels will be rather long to explain especially the F-7 story. I hope I 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
make no mistakes. The first part about the GP-7/9 will be easy. I apologize 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
for the amount of pictures. I even cut the amount down and still hope to be 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
able to fully explain. This should be the only time I will need this many 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
pictures.  I will not be talking about the road names Penn Line used on 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
these diesels, just the different versions.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
        First picture  GP-7/9 ?  This is a Penn Line single truck drive 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
driven by a coil spring. The body frame, trucks and side frames are metal by 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Penn Line. The body is Athearn. Athearn bodies were used on this Geep for 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the history of Penn Line. (That was the easy part)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
On to the F-7's. The first F-7's PL sold was a set containing a powered F-7, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dummy -7 with horn and Fleischman passenger cars in Northern Pacific livery. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
No picture. I have a complete set on the way but not here yet so I can't 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
really discuss this.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
        Second picture is to show the first bodies, with longer steps, were 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Athearn  then created  their own bodies with the shorter steps. Hopefully 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
you can see the difference on the picture.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
        Third picture is an Athearn F-7 body on a Penn Line single coil 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
spring driven truck with metal PL frame, truck and side frames.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
        Fourth picture is a Penn Line F-7 that was unknown to me till this 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
group pointed it out. It is a Penn Line body with 8 wheel Penn Line drive by 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
using a drive shaft. It is unique in that both trucks attach to the body 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
with little fingers that go into the ladders on the body. It is to fragile 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
to take apart to show. People who ran this type engine said the ladders 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
broke off easily from the poor design. Hard to take apart without breaking.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
        Fifth picture is the last Penn Line F-7 drive . It is the Penn Line 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
body with a Penn Line 8 wheel drive powered using a drive shaft. This unit 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
was an improvement on the previous drive as it could be taken  off the body 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
easily .
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
         Sixth and last picture is to show B units that could be bought both 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
powered or Dummies, At first the dummy B's were Athearn bodies (longer 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
step). I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, they used an Athearn dummy B 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
plastic frame. Later Penn Line bodies (shorter step) using a Penn Line 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
     Hopefully I have been able to explain the Penn Line F-7. I'm sorry it 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
was so long and  so many pictures. I have read this over and reread for 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
mistakes. If anyone sees something or has additional info jump in.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                           Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
H 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9431
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Penn Line steam
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 4/4/2009 7:26:22 PM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  The numbers on these engines are  pretty standard factory numbers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         Picture 3 & 4     4-4-2 Atlantic with tender
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  -------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Matches my E6 perfectly, including the number on the side of the cab.  I'm thinking about buying the superdetail kit from Bowser before they're sold out.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph B.

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 or less.                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9432
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line GG-1's
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   >     These four pictures are all Penn Line factory painted GG-1's (none 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> are the HOTCO/HO Train CO copy). The Penn Line GG-1 was not to full 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> scale but shorter. Don't shoot the messenger as you look at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> railroad names on two. We all know only the Pennsy had the GG-1 but 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Penn Line decided other roads should.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>          First picture         Pennsylvania Tuscan Red
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>          Second  pic         Pennsylvania Brunswick Green (no matter 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> how close I get or different light it still looks black to me.)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>          Third picture        Great Northern (This is mint)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>          Fourth pic           New Haven
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Time for a coffee and to read a paper. More Penn Line tomorrow.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
this works fine - although I could view pictures previously, I think 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
this is a much superior way to handle attachments. Wont clog up my 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
mailbox  - I have 20MB, sometimes it was full to capacity and incoming 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
messages were rejected.  A definite improvement.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Re the GN / NH GG1...  even when they are a nonsense , they look good... 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
in my opinion, better than the original PRR versions in their drab 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
colors. ( I know there are Pennsy afficionados lurking out there, please 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
forgive me!)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9433
						From: william witte
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: more Penn Line
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Has anyone ever seen the  red U.S. Navy Whitcomb switcher with a plastic body?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Sun, 4/5/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] more Penn Line
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Cc: lennard@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 8:34 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       The pictures are the three versions of the Penn Line "Whitcomb" midget diesel. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture one.   D-1 (first version)   Body is made from lead. Detail on the hood is added.  Motor / Drive is pulleys using an O ring. Very unusual electrical pick up. (see HOseeker for paperwork)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture two    D-2 version. Metal body with better detail especially rivets. Parts on top of hood are cast on. Motor / Drive is gear to gear with motor turned the opposite way from the D-1 version.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture three   D-3 same body detail as D-2 version but made from molded plastic. Used the D-2 motor / drive 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        These pictures have appeared before and a discussion about the Penn Line Whitcomb took place. I'm sending these for new members, people whocould not get attachments and to Lennard S who is making my albums. I did have a picture sent to me, from a good friend and PL collector, of a Penn Line boxed, ready to run Whitcomb that was one with a PLASTIC body labeled for U.S. Steel. If this old brain remembers right the number for the item was 600.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       Next will be Penn Line passenger cars both Standard Heavyweight and Streamlined
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9434
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Penn Line Heavyweight Passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                     These 3 pictures are half of the 
different types (6) of standard Penn Line heavyweight cars. These are all 
factory painted. Again I'm not showing or naming all the rail roads Penn Line 
painted their cars, just the different types. I have many other Penn 
Line heavyweight passenger cars in my collection from different roads but not 
everyone YET.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 
one      Baggage
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 
two      Combine
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 
three     Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          The 
lineage of these cars started with the two metal passenger cars (coach and 
combine) made by John English and then the Hobbyline plastic versions to Penn 
Line who expanded the number of types to 6
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9435
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Rest of PL Heavyweighs
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                       These are the other three 
types of heavyweight passenger cars Penn Line produced. I did forget to mention 
the these passenger cars were plastic bodies had heavy cast metal trucks . Some 
lighted some not, some with paper or plastic strips of people in the windows. 
Some were factory assembled others were kits (shake the box type). Most were 
factory painted but you could get undecorated to.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Picture 
one          Dining 
car
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Picture 
two          Pullman
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Picture 
three        Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   I'll send pictures of the seven streamlined 
types next
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9436
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line GN GG-1's + Aerican Beauty GN Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Gerold & Jim, and All!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Aside from that Athearn Hustler set that began my switch from American Flyer to HO modeling as a pre-teen circa 1960 or so, A Penn Line H-9 for Christmas, then the magnificent GG-1 in PRR Brunswick Green arrived, my premier locomotive (a "million miles" and still runs great when ever I pull it out!).  Even though 10 feet short, it was also a conection to the trips with dad 40 miles or so to watch the "real thing" then on the Main Line - NEC.  Saw a few of those GN and NH Penn Line versions back then, and always gave then a sideways glance, "an outrage" to my young prototypical mind!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Fast forward about 40 years and I'm at a local train show, look ahead and there's two tables covered with open blue Athearn boxes.  "All these locomotives at one price," the man said. I look and can not believe it.  A Penn Line GG-1 that looks new and fresh in trade for a double sawbuck was a deal, but here was one in GN paint, which I knew by now was a desired item.  Once I picked it up, it never left my hand again.  Have any other's I asked - "Nope", the curt reply, "All we got are these 'Aye-thearn' ones here" said the unfamiliar face.  Checked it at home, perfect paint, almost no wheel wear and runs like a charm.  The man upstairs was smiling at me that morning, for sure.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I don't have a huge collection of vintage pasenger cars, but finding some partially built American Beauty full-legnth cars in PRR colors started me looking for a good consist I could run behind the PRR GG1 and also some hobbytown of Boston E-7's I wanted to repaint in PRR. I also found a Walthers FP1-H, PRR B-60 baggage car and an FP4-H PRR horse car on eBay to add in along with my Red Ball PRR express reefer. But looking for the American Beauty cars led me to notice the sharp looking American Beauty cars in Great Northern Empire Builder scheme, very unfamiliar to a Northeasterner, but spectacular and might look good behinf that GN GG-1, eh?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
As luck and good observation would have it, I spotted a stack of those distinctive long gray Beauty boxes at a smaller show.  Actually 8 GN full legnth cars, along with one Blue Line dome car, all in Empire Builder paint.  Checking though the boxes, about half neatly assembled, the other half un-built.  And yes, one of those was the unique GN Pendulum Chair Car kit with unique divided eliptical side windows which I had seen in a vintage ad. The entire stack cost me about one third of what I later saw one chair car go for on eBay, so I know I did well.   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I guess current modelers go for the GN "Pendulum Chair Cars" besides us vintage modelers, as Walthers has not ordered one from China,...yet.  Jim, can you tell us more about the models?  I have since seen a regional oop dealer several times a year with a shorty version, sloppily assembled and he prices it high.  (Photos as soon as that new digital camera is here and operating).  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9437
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: International/IMP PRR O1 model phases
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim, What you are seeing is the result of about 4-5 years of research and information gathering, so in the case of the International PRR electrics, I am simply going back and rechecking information I aready gathered on a more liesurly basis - I actually drafted some aritcles oon my findings for the "late" SIG quarterly but did not actually join, then found it was discontinued!  Jay
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>              Thanks for the information. Great stuff. Will be put in my HO Bible of facts.  Question. How do you do all this combining information, send it to group, looks like no mistakes and willing to share ???  Especially where do you find the time ?  While it doesn't really matter because it sure saves me time from researching myself.  Many thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>              
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 9:07 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: International/IMP PRR O1 model phases
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Gerold, Jim H. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   A week or so ago, we were discussing the various differences in the International PRR O1 models imported over the years.  I went back through my not quite complete magazine library and compiled the following information from the ads and editorial content.  As a disclaimer, I am not yet satisfied with my research, and will likely go back and recheck, creating a spreadsheet that might make it easier to chart the different phases using our models.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>    I still have to add the information form the catalogs on HO Seeker as well.  But for now, this will do, but caution anyone doing additional research to check back to the original sources as noted, as my work below should only be considered "draft" or "preliminary."  From this limited source of information, though, at least three, likely four and possibly a fifth(?) phase or run can be deduced over the ten or so years the model was available. Some changes between runs may have only been to the motor and running gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   "In 1949, International Model Products (IMP) began importing an HO scale brass locomotive kit from Japan, based upon the PRR O1 prototype, but incorporating different electric locomotive details such as the roof top "clerestory" box  found on some other non-PRR electric boxcabs.  A photo of this new scale model appeared in their advertisement in the June 1949 issue of Model Railroader. As this was the dawn of the imported brass HO scale locomotive age, generic models formed of brass sheet and often lacking rivet detail were often the rule. Four narrow side vents were modeled.  The drive system incorporated an older-style "6-24 volt AC/DC" motor that needed "a bridge rectifier to be installed to be able to perate on 12 volt DC."  The cost of the screwdriver assembly kit was $ ."
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   "In March of 1950, International's advertisement in Model Railroader  included the scale drawing of the O-1a seemingly copied from the Model Railroader Cyclopedia and noted that an improved model adhering to PRR prototype plans was then available with 12v. DC motors at $13.95.   Roof detail was now in general accord with PRR practice and the underframe had additional detail added as well such as air tanks. The 72" drivers were still large brass flanged discs versus the prototype's spoked drivers."
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   "The photo of the model that appears in the November, 1954 Railroad Model Craftsman Diesel and Electric Locomotive Directory includes a photo of the earliest, generic model, but correctly notes the newer kit's 12 volt motor and a revised price, $15. " 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   "A March, 1956 advertisement in RMC shows a new model, now having six noticeably wider vertical side vents, a wider belt rail, pantographs elevated on a two-beaded insulator setup and designated as an O1b. Kits were reduce in price to $12.50 and also available was a ready to run, but undecorated "Kustom-Bilt" model at $17.95."  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   "The February, 1959 RMC advertisement contains an ad photo of the same model, but now with pantographs installed on one glass bead insulator. The same issue's Test Track section contains an enlarged version of the same photo. Prices and availability were kept at 1956 levels. "
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   "In adding the two vertical center side vents and widening all six, the model makers most likely thought that they were increasing fidelity to the prototype. Unfortunately, it seems they were actually doing the opposite, all the while following the drawings in the Model Railroader Cyclopedia, which probably were based on preliminary construction drawings that might have not actually followed the prototypes as built or later modified.  International did get the headlights right with the barrel shaped Sunbeam units, which lasted on the two surviving prototypes into the 1960s." 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   "There are many sources for prototype information on the eight PRR O1 series locomotives, but a handy recent one is the softcover Pennsylania Electric Locomotives and MU Cars by Robert Liljestrand (Bob's Photos) and noted author David Sweetland that retails for $18.00 whig cover all PRR electrics and offeres good photos for the modeler."(c) W. Jay Wanczyk
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Please remember, these are preliminary findings based soley on the magazine ads and content!  But at least we have a beginning undersatnding of some of the the chronological changes. To be continued...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9438
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  On ebay this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one with original packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much that now I'm very interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit instructions.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy for my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris Brannigan



                                                                                                                                                                                  NewLindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box VintageThis seller accepts PayPalBuy It Now or Best Offer$125.00Free 


                                                                                                                                                                                  HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER This seller accepts PayPalBuy It Now$72.00



                                                                                                                                                                                  NewBrass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale TrainThis seller accepts PayPal0 Bids$9.95
                                                                                                                                                                                  		A



                                                                                                                                                                                  NewRARE 1st RUN VARNEY 0-4-0 LIL JOE STEAM LOCO - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING 
                                                                                                                                                                                  		This seller accepts PayPal2 Bids$2.50Free shipping



                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVARNEY 4-6-2 SUPER PACIFIC STEAM LOCOMOTIVE - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING
                                                                                                                                                                                  		This seller accepts PayPal4 Bids$22.75Free shippin


                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVARNEY 2-8-0 SUPER CONSOLIDATION STEAM LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                  FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  		This seller accepts PayPal4 Bids$22.75Free shippin



                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARSThis seller accepts PayPal1 Bid$9.99


                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVintage Cast Metal
 Body of A coal Car HO size no chassiThis seller accepts PayPal0 Bids$1.99



                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE HO MODEL TRAIN REPAIR & REPLACEMENT PARTS LOTThis seller accepts PayPal0 Bids$19.99


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  		NewVINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOXThis seller accepts PayPal0 Bids$14.99






                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9439
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hey Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  I proudly take credit for the three Varney steam engine listings.. Thanks for the props!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Good vintage engines are not that hard to come by. Just need to keep your eyes pealed. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I hate to get rid of the Super Pacific. It is the only complete one I have. I have one that needs repair still though. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 11:22:55 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  On ebay this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one with original packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much that now I'm very interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit instructions.  

                                                                                                                                                                                   I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy for my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris Brannigan



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

NewLindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage
This seller accepts PayPal
Buy It Now or Best Offer
$125.00
Free 


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER 
This seller accepts PayPal
Buy It Now
$72.00




                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

NewBrass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale Train
This seller accepts PayPal
0 Bids
$9.95

                                                                                                                                                                                  		
A



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  NewRARE 1st RUN VARNEY 0-4-0 LIL JOE STEAM LOCO - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING 
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
This seller accepts PayPal
2 Bids
$2.50
Free shipping



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVARNEY 4-6-2 SUPER PACIFIC STEAM LOCOMOTIVE - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
This seller accepts PayPal
4 Bids
$22.75
Free shippin


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVARNEY 2-8-0 SUPER CONSOLIDATION STEAM LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
This seller accepts PayPal
4 Bids
$22.75
Free shippin



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

NewVINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS
This seller accepts PayPal
1 Bid
$9.99



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

NewVintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi
This seller accepts PayPal
0 Bids
$1.99




                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

NewVINTAGE HO MODEL TRAIN REPAIR & REPLACEMENT PARTS LOT
This seller accepts PayPal
0 Bids
$19.99



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
NewVINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX
This seller accepts PayPal
0 Bids
$14.99







                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9440
						From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line GP-7/9 & F-7
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  The Penn Line F7's continued to be sold for a while after the demise of Penn Line, as Varneys. I have several examples of them... ( as I am sure others do as well ), and they are identical to the Penn Lines except for the fact of having the Penn Line name removed. It seems as though the plastic used for the drive line parts is not of the same kind of quality, either. The design of the drive line was slowly changed and modified, for the worse... in my opinion, until it evolved into the Life Like design that is, or was... sold in sets for the beginner, keeping the body with the short steps. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
During the period of the Penn Line spring drive, with the Athearn shell... I believe the B unit was a matching Athearn B unit shell, using a plastic Globe type frame, with Globe type plastic trucks... but with brass wheels. The unpowered truck on the front of the A unit used an Athearn Hi F style metal truck with the same brass wheels. The A units, at least all of the ones that I have come across that appear to be original... have two headlights... ( one bulb ), with the top one having a red lense.
                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  The penn Line F7's 
                                                                                                                                                                                  







                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9441
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Obscure HO items : HO Tools
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Talking about obsure HO scale models and assessories, how about vintage HO modeling tools?  So far I have found an original Kadee coupler gauge with "K" style coupler, an "Roundhouse Products" knuckle coupler gauge which is an odd looking device that defies description; a Kadee code 100/70 track gage and some small lost wax brass hex head socket wrenches from Kemtron (may still be available from Precision), the common Mantua brass tube wrench found in every kit, and a few others. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
They come in handy sometimes, too!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Jay W., This may sound a little nuts, but nice find!  I enjoy coming across odd stuff like this, even if it may only be worth a dollar at the most, or maybe even a freebie thrown in with something else.  It was a product of a respected manufacturer and it's probably rarer than many kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Reminds me when I ran across a bunch of plastic Varney passenger platform kits (with overhang), sealed in cellophane, for about a buck apiece; I think there were about a dozen of them.  I grabbed them all.  I seem to remember finding them mentioned or listed somewhere, but just going through my catalogs (Varney) now, I can't find them listed anywhere.  It's just a small item, which can't be worth very much, yet it's scarce enough to be appreciated.  Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Hi Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > A-C Paint! Found one of those minature 2 ounce A-C paint cans in a large vintage estate lot a few years back, "P-10, Dull Black"  The paper label in black & yellow on white and matches their early graphics.  Used, with enough left in rim to leave an air tight seal, so while the pigment has no doubt solidified into a rock-like mass, the carrier still happilly sloshes around inside.  Keep it on my shelf, resting in an old glass ash tray, as with old cans, one never knows!  I've seen others at shows in old paint lots.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Not too many A-C parts around, but found a pair of A-C red plastic (tenite?) bay window bays in their original A-C marked cello envelope, saving those for now, possibly until I find a model needing them for restoration or a kit with them missing. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > Jay (W.), Great! -- THAT'S the kind of additional input we need here, to help complete these listings.  Keep these additions coming for all the empty spaces we need to fill in (on all manufacturers) so that we can know all that they made.  Always good to have unbuilt kits as you can't get any more closer to what was actually produced, unless you were right their at the factory.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > I don't think very many of us have complete rolling stock collections of any manufacturer, unless they had a very limited selection of offerings.  I know I don't, but we keep trying to complete them and this input helps find them (or at least makes us aware of what to look for); many thanks Jay.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > I would have to go back into that part (A-C -- L-W) of my collection to verify whether A-C had wood sided kits -- I don't know off the top of my head.  I'll try to check that out in the next few days (it may take that long to dig them out - LOL).  Good question though, as that transitional period is kind of grey, and not always clear on how things were offered by each manufacturer.  I note in my literature that all of A-C's sides were also sold separately, but there's no mention of the type of material that was used.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > While I'm on this subject, let me add that A-C also sold their Dalman Freight Trucks (assembled) boxed separately (@ 75 cents/pair), and had their own line of A-C paints in 17 colors plus Dull Varnish, Clear Gloss, Thinner, Turpentine and Brush Cleaner.  Also sold were two brushes (B-1 - 1/8" wide and B-2 - 1/4" wide), Cement, "Precision" Wood Parts (end blocks for box cars and reefers, and 40' & 50' 3-plank roof walks) and a series of 47 different small parts -- like passenger car steps, caboose smoke jacks, box car roof ribs, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > Looking forward to seeing the TW-1 Vinegar Car, it does build into a fine looking model -- equal (or close to) that of Ambroid/Northeastern in quality.  I extremely doubt you'd be able to find a useable jar of A-C paint today, but they made a "Special FTCX Silver" paint for this model.  I also like their Pickle Tank Cars as being something different for the layout too.  Most had four vats, but the Libby McNeil & Libby (TW-15) had five, which added further to the diversity.  Sounds like you may be getting a digital camera(?).  I only wish I were able to put up photos on the group -- don't know the first thing about it and whatever I've read is still Greek to me.  I guess the only way I'd be able to pick that up would be for someone to walk me through it to make any sense to me.  Best, Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > Hi Ray W., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > I have one boxed complete AC kit not on your list yet, CB-5 Side Door caboose, St.LSF prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > I have also noted that at least some AC kits were upgraded to wood sides by AC.  Or did L-W sell upgraded wood side work cars in old AC boxes during the transition?  MWX-4 Kitchen car is the partially assembled wood sided kit in the AC box that I have and not yet tackled.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > As soon as that camera arrives and I learn how to shoot and upload, will also post a well-assembled TW-1 Vinegar Car I found last year on a "junk" table.  That is an impressive model and fairly close in quality to the later Ambroid/Northeastern ones.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9442
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Heavyweight Passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


  
  

 
The new system worked well for me for a few times yesterday.  It has
not worked since last night and today I get the following message every
time... 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  HTTP Status 500 - 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have not been able to view the GG1's nor any pics since.  Is
anyone else having problems with it?  I am on DSL.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                  =====================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     These 3 pictures are half of the
different types (6) of standard Penn Line heavyweight cars. These are
all factory painted. Again I'm not showing or naming all the rail roads
Penn Line painted their cars, just the different types. I have many
other Penn Line heavyweight passenger cars in my collection from
different roads but not everyone YET.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture one      Baggage
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture two      Combine
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture three     Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          The lineage of these cars
started with the two metal passenger cars (coach and combine) made by
John English and then the Hobbyline plastic versions to Penn Line who
expanded the number of types to 6
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9443
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line GG-1's
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  At least the NH and GN were "could have been's"--they ran on the same 11KV 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
AC--Not so Milwaukee--which used 3KV DC.  In fact, the GG1 was based on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
NH 0350 class.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 6:17 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line GG-1's
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
> jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>     These four pictures are all Penn Line factory painted GG-1's (none
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> are the HOTCO/HO Train CO copy). The Penn Line GG-1 was not to full
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> scale but shorter. Don't shoot the messenger as you look at the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> railroad names on two. We all know only the Pennsy had the GG-1 but
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Penn Line decided other roads should.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>          First picture         Pennsylvania Tuscan Red
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>          Second  pic         Pennsylvania Brunswick Green (no matter
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> how close I get or different light it still looks black to me.)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>          Third picture        Great Northern (This is mint)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>          Fourth pic           New Haven
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>     Time for a coffee and to read a paper. More Penn Line tomorrow.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Jim and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> this works fine - although I could view pictures previously, I think
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> this is a much superior way to handle attachments. Wont clog up my
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> mailbox  - I have 20MB, sometimes it was full to capacity and incoming
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> messages were rejected.  A definite improvement.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Re the GN / NH GG1...  even when they are a nonsense , they look good...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9444
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Penn Line Streamlined Passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                       Pictures of 3 types of the 
7 streamlined passenger cars marketed by Penn Line. Again they are factory 
painted with plastic bodies and heavy cast metal trucks. Just like the 
heavyweights you could get other road names then the Pennsy. The lineage on the 
streamlined cars is a little shorter then the heavyweights. HObbyline, John 
English plastic produced a streamlined Coach and Observation before their demise 
and Penn Line took them over and expanded the types available to 7.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Picture 1     
Baggage
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Picture 
2     Baggage / Mail
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Picture 3     
Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am lucky to have many more PL streamlined 
in other road names but not every one. Other 4 types of streamlined passenger 
cars next
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9445
						From: Bill Fornshell
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line GG-1 - A Card Stock Model to build for Free
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
If anyone would like to try their hand at building a card stock model of a GG-1, Canon, as in Copiers, has one as a free download.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
For a look or to download the model and instructions go here:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cp.c-ij.com/en/contents/2027/gg1/index.html
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I was going to try and build one in HO but after running a few sheets at that scale have decide to build one in a larger scale first.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Bill in Texas
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9446
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line GG-1's
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Glenn J.,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
When I found that out years later, always seemed funny that the PRR had so many "misses" with thier electric locomotive technology, had to borrow the GE-NH unit to study. And much later, the GG-1's did finally operate into New Haven territory up to New Haven in the Penn Central-Early Amtrak era (as did NH EP-5's and E-33's on ex-PRR tracks, though in PC black).  And McGuiness colors have been revived today on modern Conn. DOT locomotives, so seeing a "G" in red, white and black seems much more natural to us today, too!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> At least the NH and GN were "could have been's"--they ran on the same 11KV 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> AC--Not so Milwaukee--which used 3KV DC.  In fact, the GG1 was based on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> NH 0350 class.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 6:17 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line GG-1's
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >>     These four pictures are all Penn Line factory painted GG-1's (none
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> are the HOTCO/HO Train CO copy). The Penn Line GG-1 was not to full
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> scale but shorter. Don't shoot the messenger as you look at the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> railroad names on two. We all know only the Pennsy had the GG-1 but
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> Penn Line decided other roads should.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >>          First picture         Pennsylvania Tuscan Red
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >>          Second  pic         Pennsylvania Brunswick Green (no matter
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> how close I get or different light it still looks black to me.)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >>          Third picture        Great Northern (This is mint)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >>          Fourth pic           New Haven
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >>     Time for a coffee and to read a paper. More Penn Line tomorrow.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Hi Jim and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > this works fine - although I could view pictures previously, I think
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > this is a much superior way to handle attachments. Wont clog up my
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > mailbox  - I have 20MB, sometimes it was full to capacity and incoming
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > messages were rejected.  A definite improvement.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Re the GN / NH GG1...  even when they are a nonsense , they look good...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9447
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Last of PL streamlined
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                     These are the last 4 types of Penn 
Line streamlined passenger cars
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           
Picture 1          Vista 
Dome
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           
Picture 2          Full Length 
Dome.  Same body as Vista Dome but with full dome
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           Picture 
3          Domed Dine 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           
Picture 
4          Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     Lennard     This 
will end the Penn Line items since I do not collect freight cars, unless part of 
a set. I collect to many vintage trains and companies already. I hope you are 
receiving all pictures and will have time to enter into an album. I will give 
you time to catch up before sending any other companies right now. I will pick 
another major company out and send those.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                             Hope some of 
these or better yet all are getting through to some as I see a few having 
problems with the new Yahoo system. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9448
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Obscure HO items : HO Tools
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 4/5/2009 11:42:46 AM EDT, Jay W wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  I have found an original Kadee coupler gauge with "K" style coupler
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  ---------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't have any K-series couplers or gauge, but I do have a B-5 gauge for MK-series couplers that is far superior to the #205 gauge that I bought when I thought I'd lost the B-5.  The #205 is supposed to be easier to assemble, but I just can't get the #5 coupler to seat properly.  What would put off a lot of today's modelers is the fact that you had to peen over the post that held the cover on the B-5, sort of like assembling valve gear on some steam locomotive models.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph B.

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 or less.                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9449
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Last of PL streamlined
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 4/5/2009 12:32:36 PM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           Picture 1          Vista Dome
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           Picture 2          Full Length Dome.  Same body as Vista Dome but with full dome
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  ---------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  With the large access panels (for the A/C equipment) shown on the left end of the cars, it appears that Penn Line copied the full-length dome and then used the same body under the short dome - which didn't need it.  Because the A/C demands were so high on the full-length dome cars, they had self-contained power units; that's why the large access panels.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  All that glass in the prototype full-length domes could really get those cars hot if the A/C wasn't working.  I know.  I rode one with non-functional A/C.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 or less.                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9450
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for the posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Personally I would love the Lindsay NW-2
but not at that price.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  And of course Sean’s auctions are
well done and informative.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Then we have the other two. I hate it when
people try to talk like they know something but in reality haven’t a
clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 10:23
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  On ebay this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at
least one with original packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so
much that now I'm very interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines.
Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit
instructions.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast
diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of
vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy for
my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can
still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  New Lindsay
  Brass Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now or Best Offer
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $125.00
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  HO
  CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $72.00
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  New Brass/Bronze
  Locomotive HO Scale Train
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.95
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  A
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  2 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $2.50
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT
  RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  New VINTAGE
  HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Bid
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  New Vintage
  Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $1.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  New VINTAGE
  HO MODEL TRAIN REPAIR & REPLACEMENT PARTS LOT
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                  $19.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  New VINTAGE
  VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                  $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9451
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  John, I have to agree on the Lindsay.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm glad just to have good photos of the packaging and parts, I think I may have some end sill castings that may be similar.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Same with Sean's postings, usually I recognize his mustang seller ID, just missed it this time.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I never minded less than knowledgeable sellers when I went on a vintage switcher buying spree last year for my W&OD roster.  I did get some terrific un-identified deals.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't know enough about vintage GG1s or the other engine to have a clue.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  But I am curious and hoped someone would take a shot at identifying the makers, especially the GG1.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I see similar cast shells sometimes in my travels, and I'd hate to miss a good find.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.     
                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                  From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 1:03:36 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  









    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  






                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                   

 


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                   

 


                                                                                                                                                                                    Personally I would love the Lindsay NW-2
but not at that price
                                                                                                                                                                                   

 


                                                                                                                                                                                    And of course Sean’s auctions are
well done and informative.
                                                                                                                                                                                   

 


                                                                                                                                                                                    Then we have the other two. I hate it when
people try to talk like they know something but in reality haven’t a
clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 


                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 10:23
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    On ebay this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at
least one with original packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so
much that now I'm very interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines.
Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit
instructions.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast
diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of
vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy for
my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can
still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  New Lindsay
  Brass Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now or Best Offer
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $125.00
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  HO
  CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $72.00
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  New Brass/Bronze
  Locomotive HO Scale Train
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.95
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  A
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  2 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $2.50
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

 


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT
  RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  New VINTAGE
  HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Bid
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  New Vintage
  Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                  $1.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  New VINTAGE
  VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                  $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  




	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                    


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9452
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                     Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   I must be getting missed by some Email post. 
You ask if someone would ID especially the GG-1. I will go back to messages on 
site and see if I can find your request and help.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 1:59 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on 
  ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  John, I have to agree on the Lindsay.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm glad just to have 
  good photos of the packaging and parts, I think I may have some end sill 
  castings that may be similar.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Same with Sean's postings, usually I 
  recognize his mustang seller ID, just missed it this time.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I never 
  minded less than knowledgeable sellers when I went on a vintage switcher 
  buying spree last year for my W&OD roster.  I did get some terrific 
  un-identified deals.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't know enough about vintage GG1s or the 
  other engine to have a clue.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  But I am curious and hoped someone 
  would take a shot at identifying the makers, especially the GG1.  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I see similar cast shells sometimes in my travels, and I'd hate to 
  miss a good find.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.     



                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: John Hagen 
  <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 1:03:36 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] 
  items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the 
  posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Personally I 
  would love the Lindsay NW-2 but not at that price
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    And of course 
  Sean’s auctions are well done and informative.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Then we have 
  the other two. I hate it when people try to talk like they know something but 
  in reality haven’t a clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western 
  Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical 
  Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of 
  Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
  Sunday, April 05, 2009 10:23
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou 
  ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] 
  items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    On ebay this morning I saw some 
  nice vintage engines, at least one with original packaging I'd never seen. 
  This group has taught me so much that now I'm very interested in a much wider 
  range of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of 
  the engine, packaging, or kit instructions.  

                                                                                                                                                                                   I'm not 
  bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast diesels on the 
  bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of vintage engines I'm 
  not familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy for my home picture 
  files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can still admire 
  the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris 
  Brannigan


                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  New Lindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box 
        Vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now or Best Offer
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $125.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER 
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $72.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  New Brass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale 
        Train
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.95
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  A
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING 
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  2 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $2.50
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
  shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN 
        LISTING
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
  shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - 
        IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
  shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  New VINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN 
        CARS
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Bid
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  New Vintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO 
        size no chassi
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $1.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  New VINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA 
        HOPPER BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  




                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9453
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  It would be pretty hard to ID the GG1 from
those pics but I’d take a stab at Penn Line. Thinking the guy is selling some
stuff from one person that had ‘em sitting around for several years and that
people tend to buy from the same maker, it would go nicely with the Penn Line
T-1 he is calling an M-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  John
Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor,
Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Green
Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 12:59
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on
ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  John, I have to agree on the Lindsay.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm glad just to have good photos of the packaging and parts, I think I may
have some end sill castings that may be similar.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Same with Sean's postings, usually I recognize his mustang seller ID, just
missed it this time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I never minded less than knowledgeable sellers when I went on a vintage
switcher buying spree last year for my W&OD roster.  I did get some
terrific un-identified deals.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I don't know enough about vintage GG1s or the other engine to have a
clue.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
But I am curious and hoped someone would take a shot at identifying the makers,
especially the GG1.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I see similar cast shells sometimes in my travels, and I'd hate to miss a good
find.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris B.     
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: John
Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009
1:03:36 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] items on
ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    Personally I would love the Lindsay
NW-2 but not at that price
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    And of course Sean’s auctions are
well done and informative.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    Then we have the other two. I hate
it when people try to talk like they know something but in reality haven’t a
clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogrou
ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou
ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 10:23
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    On ebay this morning I saw some nice
vintage engines, at least one with original packaging I'd never seen. This
group has taught me so much that now I'm very interested in a much wider range
of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of the
engine, packaging, or kit instructions.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast
diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of
vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy for
my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can
still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewLindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now or Best Offer
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $125.00
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $72.00
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewBrass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale Train
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.95
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                  - VIDEO TO BE
  POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  2 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $2.50
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  HAS BRASS TENDER
  - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  FREE SHIPPING -
  VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Bid
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                  $1.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                  $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9454
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                        Chris                                                                            I 
found your post and the pictures you are talking about. I looked at the Cast 
Bronze/Brass GG-1 shell. Pictures are very hard to see good detail at least what 
I got. The only two cast brass/bronze full HO scale size GG-1 I know of are 
Schrader and George Stock. FAMOCO's is cast metal. Again I tried to use what 
detail is able to be seen on the body, top and side, but would be guessing 
unless it was someone's own casting. Best I can do. Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 2:04 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on 
  ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   I must be getting missed by some Email 
  post. You ask if someone would ID especially the GG-1. I will go back to 
  messages on site and see if I can find your request and help.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
    Chris 
    B 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 1:59 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on 
    ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  John, I have to agree on the Lindsay.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm glad just to 
    have good photos of the packaging and parts, I think I may have some end 
    sill castings that may be similar.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Same with Sean's postings, usually 
    I recognize his mustang seller ID, just missed it this time.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I never 
    minded less than knowledgeable sellers when I went on a vintage switcher 
    buying spree last year for my W&OD roster.  I did get some terrific 
    un-identified deals.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't know enough about vintage GG1s or the 
    other engine to have a clue.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  But I am curious and hoped 
    someone would take a shot at identifying the makers, especially the 
    GG1.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I see similar cast shells sometimes in my travels, and 
    I'd hate to miss a good find.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.     
    



                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    From: John Hagen 
    <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
    vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 1:03:36 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] 
    items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for 
    the posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Personally I 
    would love the Lindsay NW-2 but not at that price
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    And of 
    course Sean’s auctions are well done and informative.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Then we have 
    the other two. I hate it when people try to talk like they know something 
    but in reality haven’t a clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western 
    Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical 
    Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
    vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
    [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On 
    Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 
    10:23
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
    vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] items on 
    ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    On ebay this morning I saw some 
    nice vintage engines, at least one with original packaging I'd never seen. 
    This group has taught me so much that now I'm very interested in a much 
    wider range of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings had nice closeup 
    photos of the engine, packaging, or kit instructions.  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                   I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other 
    diecast diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good 
    photos of vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up,  I always grab 
    a copy for my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage 
    steam, but I can still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve 
    gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris Brannigan


                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  New Lindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box 
          Vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now or Best Offer
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  $125.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE 
          TENDER 
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  $72.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    


                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  New Brass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale 
          Train
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.95
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  A
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    


                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE 
          SHIPPING 
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  2 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  $2.50
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
    shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN 
          LISTING
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
    shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING 
          - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
    shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    


                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  New VINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN 
          CARS
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Bid
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  New Vintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO 
          size no chassi
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  $1.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    


                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  New VINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE 
          GONDOLA HOPPER BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    




                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9455
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
The GG-1 being Cast Brass or Bronze, would be a Schrader or Geo. Stock and from the poor photos, it definitely looks like one of those, my guess probably Schader; they were more widely available, too.  Jim H has photos of both in his Album here.  If I'm not mistaken, I think Scrader acquired the molds for Stock and then upgraded the model?  Or am I mistaken, all?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> On ebay this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one with original packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much that now I'm very interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit instructions.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy for my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ChrisBrannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  Lindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage   $125.00 Free  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER    $72.00 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  Brass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale Train  0 Bids $9.95 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  A 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  RARE 1st RUN VARNEY 0-4-0 LIL JOE STEAM LOCO - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING   2 Bids $2.50 Free shipping 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  VARNEY 4-6-2 SUPER PACIFIC STEAM LOCOMOTIVE - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING  4 Bids $22.75 Free shippin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  VARNEY 2-8-0 SUPER CONSOLIDATION STEAM LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT RUNS  4 Bids $22.75 Free shippin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  VINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS  1 Bid $9.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  Vintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi  0 Bids $1.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  VINTAGE HO MODEL TRAIN REPAIR & REPLACEMENT PARTS LOT  0 Bids $19.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   VINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX  0 Bids $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9456
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
You were quicker while I was still looking up your photos!  Can you or someone else confirm that George Stock sold his molds to Schrader?  I think I read that somewhere and that Schrader then upgraded the kit with a better drive chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I also read somehwere that George Stock got the original mold from Ed Alexander, maybe in Cartsten's Book.  Anyone know more about that geneology?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The GG-1 being Cast Brass or Bronze, would be a Schrader or Geo. Stock and from the poor photos, it definitely looks like one of those, my guess probably Schader; they were more widely available, too.  Jim H has photos of both in his Album here.  If I'm not mistaken, I think Scrader acquired the molds for Stock and then upgraded the model?  Or am I mistaken, all?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > On ebay this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one with original packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much that now I'm very interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit instructions.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy for my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > ChrisBrannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  Lindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage   $125.00 Free  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER    $72.00 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  Brass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale Train  0 Bids $9.95 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  A 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  RARE 1st RUN VARNEY 0-4-0 LIL JOE STEAM LOCO - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING   2 Bids $2.50 Free shipping 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  VARNEY 4-6-2 SUPER PACIFIC STEAM LOCOMOTIVE - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING  4 Bids $22.75 Free shippin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  VARNEY 2-8-0 SUPER CONSOLIDATION STEAM LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT RUNS  4 Bids $22.75 Free shippin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  VINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS  1 Bid $9.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  Vintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi  0 Bids $1.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  VINTAGE HO MODEL TRAIN REPAIR & REPLACEMENT PARTS LOT  0 Bids $19.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   VINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX  0 Bids $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9457
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  The bright spot that posted this auction
seems to basing his assumption that the shell is bronze on it being
non-magnetic. If so, it could very well be white metal or zamac. So its all
kind of a crap shot on this one.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  John
Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor,
Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Green
Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 13:23
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on
ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  



 
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                        Chris                                                                            I
found your post and the pictures you are talking about. I looked at the Cast
Bronze/Brass GG-1 shell. Pictures are very hard to see good detail at least
what I got. The only two cast brass/bronze full HO scale size GG-1 I know
of are Schrader and George Stock. FAMOCO's is cast metal. Again I tried to use
what detail is able to be seen on the body, top and side, but would be guessing
unless it was someone's own casting. Best I can do. Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday,
April 05, 2009 2:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re:
[vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                     Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   I must be getting missed by
some Email post. You ask if someone would ID especially the GG-1. I will go
back to messages on site and see if I can find your request and help.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Chris B

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday,
April 05, 2009 1:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re:
[vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  John, I have to agree on the Lindsay.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm glad just to have good photos of the packaging and parts, I think I may
have some end sill castings that may be similar.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Same with Sean's postings, usually I recognize his mustang seller ID, just
missed it this time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I never minded less than knowledgeable sellers when I went on a vintage
switcher buying spree last year for my W&OD roster.  I did get some
terrific un-identified deals.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I don't know enough about vintage GG1s or the other engine to have a
clue.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
But I am curious and hoped someone would take a shot at identifying the makers,
especially the GG1.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I see similar cast shells sometimes in my travels, and I'd hate to miss a good
find.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris B.     
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: John
Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009
1:03:36 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] items on
ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    Personally I would love the Lindsay
NW-2 but not at that price
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    And of course Sean’s auctions are
well done and informative.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    Then we have the other two. I hate
it when people try to talk like they know something but in reality haven’t a
clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:
vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris
B
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 10:23
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    On ebay this morning I saw some nice
vintage engines, at least one with original packaging I'd never seen. This
group has taught me so much that now I'm very interested in a much wider range
of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of the
engine, packaging, or kit instructions.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast
diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of
vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy for
my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can
still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewLindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now or Best Offer
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $125.00
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $72.00
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewBrass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale Train
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.95
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                  - VIDEO TO BE
  POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  2 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $2.50
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  HAS BRASS TENDER
  - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  FREE SHIPPING -
  VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Bid
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $1.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9458
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks to all for the information on the ebay items.

                                                                                                                                                                                  That M-1 might not be so bad a deal for $72?  

                                                                                                                                                                                  There's a clean one ending in the next hour for at least $100 more.


                                                                                                                                                                                  Enlarge
                                                                                                                                                                                  		VINTAGE PENN LINE PRR T-1 METAL STREAMLINER w SMOKE!This seller accepts PayPal10 Bids$171.50


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 2:16:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  









    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  






                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  It would be pretty hard to ID the GG1 from
those pics but I’d take a stab at Penn Line. Thinking the guy is selling some
stuff from one person that had ‘em sitting around for several years and that
people tend to buy from the same maker, it would go nicely with the Penn Line
T-1 he is calling an M-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  John
Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor,
Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Green
Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 12:59
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on
ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  John, I have to agree on the Lindsay.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm glad just to have good photos of the packaging and parts, I think I may
have some end sill castings that may be similar.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Same with Sean's postings, usually I recognize his mustang seller ID, just
missed it this time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I never minded less than knowledgeable sellers when I went on a vintage
switcher buying spree last year for my W&OD roster.  I did get some
terrific un-identified deals.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I don't know enough about vintage GG1s or the other engine to have a
clue.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
But I am curious and hoped someone would take a shot at identifying the makers,
especially the GG1.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I see similar cast shells sometimes in my travels, and I'd hate to miss a good
find.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris B.     
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: John
Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009
1:03:36 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] items on
ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    Personally I would love the Lindsay
NW-2 but not at that price
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    And of course Sean’s auctions are
well done and informative.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    Then we have the other two. I hate
it when people try to talk like they know something but in reality haven’t a
clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogrou
ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou
ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 10:23
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    On ebay this morning I saw some nice
vintage engines, at least one with original packaging I'd never seen. This
group has taught me so much that now I'm very interested in a much wider range
of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of the
engine, packaging, or kit instructions.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast
diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of
vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy for
my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can
still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewLindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now or Best Offer
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $125.00
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $72.00
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewBrass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale Train
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.95
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                  $2.50
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  HAS BRASS TENDER
  - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  FREE SHIPPING -
  VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Bid
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                  $1.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  




	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                    


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9459
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  sorry, meant to put quotes on that "M-1"  (T-1).
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 4:43:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks to all for the information on the ebay items.

                                                                                                                                                                                  That M-1 might not be so bad a deal for $72?  

                                                                                                                                                                                  There's a clean one ending in the next hour for at least $100 more.


                                                                                                                                                                                  Enlarge
                                                                                                                                                                                  		VINTAGE PENN LINE PRR T-1 METAL STREAMLINER w SMOKE!This seller accepts PayPal10 Bids$171.50


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 2:16:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  









    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  






                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  It would be pretty hard to ID the GG1 from
those pics but I’d take a stab at Penn Line. Thinking the guy is selling some
stuff from one person that had ‘em sitting around for several years and that
people tend to buy from the same maker, it would go nicely with the Penn Line
T-1 he is calling an M-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  John
Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor,
Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Green
Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 12:59
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on
ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  John, I have to agree on the Lindsay.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm glad just to have good photos of the packaging and parts, I think I may
have some end sill castings that may be similar.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Same with Sean's postings, usually I recognize his mustang seller ID, just
missed it this time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I never minded less than knowledgeable sellers when I went on a vintage
switcher buying spree last year for my W&OD roster.  I did get some
terrific un-identified deals.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I don't know enough about vintage GG1s or the other engine to have a
clue.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
But I am curious and hoped someone would take a shot at identifying the makers,
especially the GG1.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I see similar cast shells sometimes in my travels, and I'd hate to miss a good
find.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris B.     
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: John
Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009
1:03:36 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] items on
ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    Personally I would love the Lindsay
NW-2 but not at that price
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    And of course Sean’s auctions are
well done and informative.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    Then we have the other two. I hate
it when people try to talk like they know something but in reality haven’t a
clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogrou
ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou
ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 10:23
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    On ebay this morning I saw some nice
vintage engines, at least one with original packaging I'd never seen. This
group has taught me so much that now I'm very interested in a much wider range
of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of the
engine, packaging, or kit instructions.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast
diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of
vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy for
my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can
still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewLindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now or Best Offer
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $125.00
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                  $72.00
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewBrass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale Train
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.95
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  A
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  - VIDEO TO BE
  POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  2 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $2.50
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                  HAS BRASS TENDER
  - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                  FREE SHIPPING -
  VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $1.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                  $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  




	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                    


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                  



      

                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9460
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                            While I was able 
to draw a possible ID off the top of my head I will have to dig deep into the 
archives to answer the questions you ask. I have to go back to issues 
of the HOSC&H SIG newsletters (The Reporting Mark) for those answers I have 
to reread all George Stock information as I don't have an index to tell me which 
issue to look in. There was something  written about Schrader 
and Stock . Everything I know (drawn from a tired old brain) was Stock 
was a master machinist and made everything he needed . I don't recall the 
mention of Ed Alexander anytime. I hope someone like replies (hint Jim 
Waterman). I am relaxing a little at the moment for a day of hospital test 
tomorrow. If no one answers you by then I will start searching.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 2:41 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock 
  or Schrader?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H.

                                                                                                                                                                                  You were quicker while I was still looking up your photos! 
  Can you or someone else confirm that George Stock sold his molds to Schrader? 
  I think I read that somewhere and that Schrader then upgraded the kit with a 
  better drive chassis.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I also read somehwere that George Stock got the 
  original mold from Ed Alexander, maybe in Cartsten's Book. Anyone know more 
  about that geneology?

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Chris 
  B.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > The GG-1 being Cast Brass or Bronze, would be a Schrader 
  or Geo. Stock and from the poor photos, it definitely looks like one of those, 
  my guess probably Schader; they were more widely available, too. Jim H has 
  photos of both in his Album here. If I'm not mistaken, I think Scrader 
  acquired the molds for Stock and then upgraded the model? Or am I mistaken, 
  all?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > On ebay 
  this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one with original 
  packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much that now I'm very 
  interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings 
  had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit instructions. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I'm not bidding on any of these, too many 
  hobbytown and other diecast diesels on the bench already, but...whenever 
  listings with good photos of vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up, I 
  always grab a copy for my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any 
  vintage steam, but I can still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and 
  valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > ChrisBrannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Lindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original 
  Box Vintage $125.00 Free 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > HO CUSTOM 
  METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER $72.00 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Brass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale 
  Train 0 Bids $9.95 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > A 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > RARE 1st RUN VARNEY 0-4-0 LIL JOE STEAM LOCO - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING 2 Bids $2.50 Free 
  shipping 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > VARNEY 4-6-2 
  SUPER PACIFIC STEAM LOCOMOTIVE - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO 
  TO BE POSTED IN LISTING 4 Bids $22.75 Free shippin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > VARNEY 2-8-0 SUPER CONSOLIDATION STEAM LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT RUNS 4 Bids $22.75 Free 
  shippin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > VINTAGE HO 
  PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS 1 Bid $9.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Vintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no 
  chassi 0 Bids $1.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > VINTAGE HO MODEL TRAIN REPAIR & REPLACEMENT PARTS LOT 0 Bids 
  $19.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > VINTAGE VARNEY 
  TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX 0 Bids $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9461
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      John    
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                              
 I totally agree that it is a kind of flip a coin type.  He gave an 
overall length measurement and I'm not sure if that was full HO scale or 
like you said possibly Penn Line./ HOTCO size. The magnet part is a little 
iffy too. I'm assuming seller is right on this. I usually 
depend on visual identification using the pictures to ID unidentified 
pieces.These pictures, unless they could be enhanced by printing out, doesn't 
give you much to go by. The square or rectangular patterns (whatever they are in 
real life) on top of the roof are very helpful to ID GG-1 HO 
engines engine but is very hard to make out.The one side view that kind of 
shows the middle of the body would be another. I was going to try to look closer 
but time right now and a very tired old body said take a break.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  John Hagen 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 2:48 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] items on 
  ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  The bright spot that 
  posted this auction seems to basing his assumption that the shell is bronze on 
  it being non-magnetic. If so, it could very well be white metal or zamac. So 
  its all kind of a crap shot on this one.
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western 
  Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical 
  Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 
  13:23
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on 
  ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
   
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        Chris                                                                            I 
  found your post and the pictures you are talking about. I looked at the Cast 
  Bronze/Brass GG-1 shell. Pictures are very hard to see good detail at least 
  what I got. The only two cast brass/bronze full HO scale size GG-1 I know 
  of are Schrader and George Stock. FAMOCO's is cast metal. Again I tried to use 
  what detail is able to be seen on the body, top and side, but would be 
  guessing unless it was someone's own casting. Best I can do. 
  Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                   
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: jim heckard 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                   
     
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, 
    April 05, 2009 2:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                   
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: 
    [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                   
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
    Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                   
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                   I must be getting missed 
    by some Email post. You ask if someone would ID especially the GG-1. I will 
    go back to messages on site and see if I can find your request and 
    help.
                                                                                                                                                                                   
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                   
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
      
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Chris 
      B 
                                                                                                                                                                                   
       
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
      Sunday, April 05, 2009 1:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: 
      [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  John, I have to agree on the 
      Lindsay.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm glad just to have good photos of the packaging 
      and parts, I think I may have some end sill castings that may be 
      similar.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Same with Sean's postings, usually I recognize his mustang 
      seller ID, just missed it this time.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I never minded less than 
      knowledgeable sellers when I went on a vintage switcher buying spree last 
      year for my W&OD roster.  I did get some terrific un-identified 
      deals.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't know enough about vintage GG1s or the other engine 
      to have a clue.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  But I am curious and hoped someone would 
      take a shot at identifying the makers, especially the GG1.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I 
      see similar cast shells sometimes in my travels, and I'd hate to miss a 
      good find.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.     
      


                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
      John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
      vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 1:03:36 
      PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: 
      [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for 
      the posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Personally 
      I would love the Lindsay NW-2 but not at that 
      price
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    And of 
      course Sean’s auctions are well done and 
      informative.
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Then we 
      have the other two. I hate it when people try to talk like they know 
      something but in reality haven’t a clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      John 
      Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, 
      Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay 
      & Western Historical Society, Inc. 
      Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
      vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
      [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 
      10:23
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
      vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] items on 
      ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    On 
      ebay this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one with 
      original packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much that 
      now I'm very interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. Many 
      of these listings had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit 
      instructions.  

                                                                                                                                                                                   I'm not bidding on any of these, too 
      many hobbytown and other diecast diesels on the bench already, 
      but...whenever listings with good photos of vintage engines I'm not 
      familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy for my home picture 
      files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can still 
      admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris Brannigan

                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewLindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box 
            Vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now or Best Offer
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  $125.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
      
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER 
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  $72.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewBrass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale 
            Train
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.95
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  A
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
             
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE 
            SHIPPING 
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  2 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  $2.50
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
        shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
             
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN 
            LISTING
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
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                                                                                                                                                                                  FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN 
            LISTING - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
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                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN 
            CARS
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Bid
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no 
            chassi
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  $1.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER 
            BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		 
          
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                   
      



                                                                                                                                                                                   
      
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9462
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    To me $72 for either a Penn Line or Bowser 
double motor T-1 is a good price. That was a buy it now price  
???
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 4:44 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on 
  ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  sorry, 
  meant to put quotes on that "M-1"  (T-1).
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 4:43:30 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks to all for the information on the ebay items.

                                                                                                                                                                                  That M-1 
  might not be so bad a deal for $72?  

                                                                                                                                                                                  There's a clean one ending 
  in the next hour for at least $100 more.


                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Enlarge
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      VINTAGE PENN LINE PRR T-1 METAL STREAMLINER w 
        SMOKE!
      This seller accepts PayPal
      10 Bids
      $171.50
      

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: John Hagen 
  <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 2:16:12 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] 
  items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  It would be pretty 
  hard to ID the GG1 from those pics but I’d take a stab at Penn Line. Thinking 
  the guy is selling some stuff from one person that had ‘em sitting around for 
  several years and that people tend to buy from the same maker, it would go 
  nicely with the Penn Line T-1 he is calling an M-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western 
  Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical 
  Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 
  12:59
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou 
  ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: 
  [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  John, I have to agree on the 
  Lindsay.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm glad just to have good photos of the packaging and 
  parts, I think I may have some end sill castings that may be 
  similar.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Same with Sean's postings, usually I recognize his mustang 
  seller ID, just missed it this time.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I never minded less than 
  knowledgeable sellers when I went on a vintage switcher buying spree last year 
  for my W&OD roster.  I did get some terrific un-identified 
  deals.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't know enough about vintage GG1s or the other engine to 
  have a clue.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  But I am curious and hoped someone would take a 
  shot at identifying the makers, especially the GG1.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I see 
  similar cast shells sometimes in my travels, and I'd hate to miss a good 
  find.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.     


                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: John 
  Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou 
  ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 
  2009 1:03:36 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: 
  [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the 
  posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Personally I 
  would love the Lindsay NW-2 but not at that price
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    And of course 
  Sean’s auctions are well done and informative.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Then we have 
  the other two. I hate it when people try to talk like they know something but 
  in reality haven’t a clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western 
  Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical 
  Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 
  10:23
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou 
  ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] 
  items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    On ebay 
  this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one with original 
  packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much that now I'm very 
  interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings 
  had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit instructions.  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                   I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other 
  diecast diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos 
  of vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy 
  for my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I 
  can still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris Brannigan

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewLindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box 
        Vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now or Best Offer
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $125.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER 
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $72.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewBrass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale 
        Train
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.95
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
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                                                                                                                                                                                  - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING 
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  2 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $2.50
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
  shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN 
        LISTING
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
  shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - 
        IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
  shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN 
        CARS
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Bid
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size 
        no chassi
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $1.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA 
        HOPPER BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  



                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9463
						From: Riverboy
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Yes , it is a " Buy It Now " price . I've dealt with this seller a few times over the years and always had great service . Sometimes their shipping might be just slightly high , but a lot of the time their buy it now prices offset it more than enough.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Tod

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Sun, 4/5/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 5:33 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    To me $72 for either a Penn Line or Bowser double motor T-1 is a good price. That was a buy it now price  ???
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Chris B 
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 4:44 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  sorry, meant to put quotes on that "M-1"  (T-1).
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 4:43:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks to all for the information on the ebay items.

                                                                                                                                                                                  That M-1 might not be so bad a deal for $72?  

                                                                                                                                                                                  There's a clean one ending in the next hour for at least $100 more.


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Enlarge
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
VINTAGE PENN LINE PRR T-1 METAL STREAMLINER w SMOKE!
This seller accepts PayPal
10 Bids
$171.50


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 2:16:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  It would be pretty hard to ID the GG1 from those pics but I’d take a stab at Penn Line. Thinking the guy is selling some stuff from one person that had ‘em sitting around for several years and that people tend to buy from the same maker, it would go nicely with the Penn Line T-1 he is calling an M-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 12:59
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  John, I have to agree on the Lindsay.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm glad just to have good photos of the packaging and parts, I think I may have some end sill castings that may be similar.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Same with Sean's postings, usually I recognize his mustang seller ID, just missed it this time.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I never minded less than knowledgeable sellers when I went on a vintage switcher buying spree last year for my W&OD roster.  I did get some terrific un-identified deals.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't know enough about vintage GG1s or the other engine to have a clue.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  But I am curious and hoped someone would take a shot at identifying the makers, especially the GG1.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I see similar cast shells sometimes in my travels, and I'd hate to miss a good find.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.     


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  From: John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 1:03:36 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Personally I would love the Lindsay NW-2 but not at that price
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    And of course Sean’s auctions are well done and informative.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Then we have the other two. I hate it when people try to talk like they know something but in reality haven’t a clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 10:23
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    On ebay this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one with original packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much that now I'm very interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit instructions.  

                                                                                                                                                                                   I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy for my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris Brannigan

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                  		

                                                                                                                                                                                  NewLindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now or Best Offer
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  $125.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER 
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  $72.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  NewBrass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale Train
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.95
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  A
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  		



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING 
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  2 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  $2.50
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  		



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  		



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Bid
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  $1.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		


                                                                                                                                                                                  $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9464
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: what is it
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay W, John H, Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           I was going to pass 
trying to ID that GG-1 body but you have peaked my interest. Since the info 
given can't be verified and the pictures poor figuring it out will be hard. Add 
to that is it Bronze / Brass or what.  Is it in fact HO. Could it be 
double O like I think it was called Maxon. Could it be a casting done by 
some one ?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          I 
took some of the better pictures and tried to enlarge them. I have a magnifying 
glass looking at these and I'm still not totally sure what it is but leaning 
towards Schrader for these reasons and details. Schrader had the little "bumps" 
as part of the casting where the pantographs go. George Stock did not. Those 
rectangle shapes on the top of the body are centered and only those  appear 
centered on Schrader. Stocks were off center as there was a little circle detail 
at one end. I was ready to say SCHRADER 90% until I saw one little detail that 
is on Stock GG-bodies but not Schrader. There is a little casting shape on a 
picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact 
middle.Schrader does NOT have this as it is smooth. On the other hand Stock has 
a little raised keystone shape cast on his body in that location.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         I have to drop 
it down to 75% thinking Schrader. All that said still unsure.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Big 
help.                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9465
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  great Jim, hope you get it!  

                                                                                                                                                                                  that's some of why I post these things, especially the unidentified or mis-identified items.

                                                                                                                                                                                  if they're ordinary, I'll learn that, and if they're hot deals, I learned that too!

                                                                                                                                                                                  Recently I bought a Locomotive Workshop brass etched trolley kit.  I'll admit I didn't ask the group about it till I had it in my hot little hands, but when I did post about it, I learned a bunch about the kit and the company.

                                                                                                                                                                                  just another reason this group is worth it.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 5:33:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  









    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    To me $72 for either a Penn Line or Bowser 
double motor T-1 is a good price. That was a buy it now price  
???
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 4:44 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on 
  ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  sorry, 
  meant to put quotes on that "M-1"  (T-1).
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 4:43:30 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks to all for the information on the ebay items.

                                                                                                                                                                                  That M-1 
  might not be so bad a deal for $72?  

                                                                                                                                                                                  There's a clean one ending 
  in the next hour for at least $100 more.


                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Enlarge
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      VINTAGE PENN LINE PRR T-1 METAL STREAMLINER w 
        SMOKE!
      This seller accepts PayPal
      10 Bids
      $171.50
      

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: John Hagen 
  <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 2:16:12 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] 
  items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  It would be pretty 
  hard to ID the GG1 from those pics but I’d take a stab at Penn Line. Thinking 
  the guy is selling some stuff from one person that had ‘em sitting around for 
  several years and that people tend to buy from the same maker, it would go 
  nicely with the Penn Line T-1 he is calling an M-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western 
  Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical 
  Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 
  12:59
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou 
  ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: 
  [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  John, I have to agree on the 
  Lindsay.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm glad just to have good photos of the packaging and 
  parts, I think I may have some end sill castings that may be 
  similar.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Same with Sean's postings, usually I recognize his mustang 
  seller ID, just missed it this time.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I never minded less than 
  knowledgeable sellers when I went on a vintage switcher buying spree last year 
  for my W&OD roster.  I did get some terrific un-identified 
  deals.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't know enough about vintage GG1s or the other engine to 
  have a clue.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  But I am curious and hoped someone would take a 
  shot at identifying the makers, especially the GG1.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I see 
  similar cast shells sometimes in my travels, and I'd hate to miss a good 
  find.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.     


                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: John 
  Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou 
  ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 
  2009 1:03:36 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: 
  [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the 
  posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Personally I 
  would love the Lindsay NW-2 but not at that price
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    And of course 
  Sean’s auctions are well done and informative.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Then we have 
  the other two. I hate it when people try to talk like they know something but 
  in reality haven’t a clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western 
  Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical 
  Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 
  10:23
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou 
  ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] 
  items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    On ebay 
  this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one with original 
  packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much that now I'm very 
  interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings 
  had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit instructions.  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                   I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other 
  diecast diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos 
  of vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy 
  for my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I 
  can still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris Brannigan

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewLindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box 
        Vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now or Best Offer
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $125.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER 
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $72.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewBrass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale 
        Train
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.95
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  A
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING 
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  2 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $2.50
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
  shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN 
        LISTING
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
  shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - 
        IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
  shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN 
        CARS
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Bid
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size 
        no chassi
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $1.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA 
        HOPPER BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                  $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  



                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                    


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9466
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 12:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Thanks for the posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Personally I would love the Lindsay NW-2 but not at that price.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> And of course Sean's auctions are well done and informative.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Then we have the other two. I hate it when people try to talk like they 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> know
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> something but in reality haven't a clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
You mean you don't want a "coal car" to go with those "rare vintage" stock 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Athearn passenger cars?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Actually we can thank eBay for Sean being here.  I mentioned the group to 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
him when I bought my FM Erie Built from him, and he promptly joined.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9467
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Does the fact that he mentions a length of somewhere around 10 1/2" (I don't 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
recall exactly without looking at the auction again) help?  That seems short 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
for a full length GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 1:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
      Chris 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
I found your post and the pictures you are talking about. I looked at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Cast Bronze/Brass GG-1 shell. Pictures are very hard to see good detail at 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
least what I got. The only two cast brass/bronze full HO scale size GG-1 I 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
know of are Schrader and George Stock. FAMOCO's is cast metal. Again I tried 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
to use what detail is able to be seen on the body, top and side, but would 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
be guessing unless it was someone's own casting. Best I can do. Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 2:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
     Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
   I must be getting missed by some Email post. You ask if someone would ID 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
especially the GG-1. I will go back to messages on site and see if I can 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
find your request and help.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    From: Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 1:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    John, I have to agree on the Lindsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    I'm glad just to have good photos of the packaging and parts, I think I 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
may have some end sill castings that may be similar.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Same with Sean's postings, usually I recognize his mustang seller ID, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
just missed it this time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    I never minded less than knowledgeable sellers when I went on a vintage 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
switcher buying spree last year for my W&OD roster.  I did get some terrific 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
un-identified deals.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    I don't know enough about vintage GG1s or the other engine to have a 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    But I am curious and hoped someone would take a shot at identifying the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
makers, especially the GG1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    I see similar cast shells sometimes in my travels, and I'd hate to miss 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
a good find.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 1:03:36 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Subject: RE: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      Thanks for the posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      Personally I would love the Lindsay NW-2 but not at that price
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      And of course Sean’s auctions are well done and informative.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      Then we have the other two. I hate it when people try to talk like 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
they know something but in reality haven’t a clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 10:23
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Subject: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      On ebay this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
with original packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
that now I'm very interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
kit instructions.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
     I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy for my 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
          Lindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
         $125.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  
         Free
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
         HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
         $72.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
          Brass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale Train
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
         0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  
         $9.95
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
         A
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
          RARE 1st RUN VARNEY 0-4-0 LIL JOE STEAM LOCO - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
         2 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  
         $2.50
                                                                                                                                                                                  
         Free shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
          VARNEY 4-6-2 SUPER PACIFIC STEAM LOCOMOTIVE - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
         4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  
         $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  
         Free shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
          VARNEY 2-8-0 SUPER CONSOLIDATION STEAM LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
         4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  
         $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  
         Free shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
          VINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
         1 Bid
                                                                                                                                                                                  
         $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
          Vintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
         0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  
         $1.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
          VINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
         0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  
         $14.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9468
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  I have also bought a number of nice pieces from them including some really 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
strange Middlebrook WOODEN streamliner kits.  I wish I could find out where 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
they're getting these <G>.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Riverboy" <river_dweller_ohio@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 4:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Yes , it is a " Buy It Now " price . I've dealt with this seller a few times 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
over the years and always had great service . Sometimes their shipping might 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
be just slightly high , but a lot of the time their buy it now prices offset 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
it more than enough.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Tod
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
--- On Sun, 4/5/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 5:33 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To me $72 for either a Penn Line or Bowser double motor T-1 is a good price. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
That was a buy it now price ???
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 4:44 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
sorry, meant to put quotes on that "M-1" (T-1).
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 4:43:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks to all for the information on the ebay items.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
That M-1 might not be so bad a deal for $72?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
There's a clean one ending in the next hour for at least $100 more.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Enlarge
                                                                                                                                                                                  
VINTAGE PENN LINE PRR T-1 METAL STREAMLINER w SMOKE!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
10 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  
$171.50
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 2:16:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
It would be pretty hard to ID the GG1 from those pics but I’d take a stab at 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Penn Line. Thinking the guy is selling some stuff from one person that had 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
‘em sitting around for several years and that people tend to buy from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
same maker, it would go nicely with the Penn Line T-1 he is calling an M-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 12:59
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
John, I have to agree on the Lindsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm glad just to have good photos of the packaging and parts, I think I may 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
have some end sill castings that may be similar.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Same with Sean's postings, usually I recognize his mustang seller ID, just 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
missed it this time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I never minded less than knowledgeable sellers when I went on a vintage 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
switcher buying spree last year for my W&OD roster. I did get some terrific 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
un-identified deals.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I don't know enough about vintage GG1s or the other engine to have a clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
But I am curious and hoped someone would take a shot at identifying the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
makers, especially the GG1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I see similar cast shells sometimes in my travels, and I'd hate to miss a 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
good find.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 1:03:36 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for the posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Personally I would love the Lindsay NW-2 but not at that price
                                                                                                                                                                                  
And of course Sean’s auctions are well done and informative.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Then we have the other two. I hate it when people try to talk like they know 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
something but in reality haven’t a clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 10:23
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
On ebay this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one with 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
original packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much that now 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm very interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. Many of 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
these listings had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
instructions.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up, I always grab a copy for my 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Lindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
$125.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Free
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
$72.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Brass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale Train
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
$9.95
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
A
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
RARE 1st RUN VARNEY 0-4-0 LIL JOE STEAM LOCO - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
- VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
2 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
$2.50
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Free shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
VARNEY 4-6-2 SUPER PACIFIC STEAM LOCOMOTIVE - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
$22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Free shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
VARNEY 2-8-0 SUPER CONSOLIDATION STEAM LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
$22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Free shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
VINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
1 Bid
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
$9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Vintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
$1.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
VINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
$14.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9469
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Heavyweight Passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  They're still working here.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
If you go to the group page and on the left column, under the "Messages" 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
header click on "attachments".  You will find all the message attachments 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
there, 1 folder for each message with the message subject line.  They're 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
sorted chronologically, newest ones first.  (or just click on the link)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/attachments/folder/0/list
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 10:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line Heavyweight Passenger cars
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
> /The new system worked well for me for a few times yesterday.  It has
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> not worked since last night and today I get the following message every
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> time... /
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  HTTP Status 500 -
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> /I have not been able to view the GG1's nor any pics since.  Is anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> else having problems with it?  I am on DSL.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> /=====================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>    These 3 pictures are half of the different types (6) of standard
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Penn Line heavyweight cars. These are all factory painted. Again I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> not showing or naming all the rail roads Penn Line painted their cars,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> just the different types. I have many other Penn Line heavyweight
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> passenger cars in my collection from different roads but not everyone 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> YET.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>       Picture one      Baggage
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>       Picture two      Combine
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>       Picture three     Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>         The lineage of these cars started with the two metal passenger
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> cars (coach and combine) made by John English and then the Hobbyline
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> plastic versions to Penn Line who expanded the number of types to 6
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9470
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,                                                    
You misunderstood. I don't intend to buy it (T-1). I have one already. I was 
just saying the price was good after you said you thought it was.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 6:48 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on 
  ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  great Jim, hope you get it!  

                                                                                                                                                                                  that's some of why I post these 
  things, especially the unidentified or mis-identified items.

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  if 
  they're ordinary, I'll learn that, and if they're hot deals, I learned that 
  too!

                                                                                                                                                                                  Recently I bought a Locomotive Workshop brass etched trolley 
  kit.  I'll admit I didn't ask the group about it till I had it in my hot 
  little hands, but when I did post about it, I learned a bunch about the kit 
  and the company.

                                                                                                                                                                                  just another reason this group is worth 
  it.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.


                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: jim heckard 
  <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 5:33:12 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    To me $72 for either a Penn Line or Bowser 
  double motor T-1 is a good price. That was a buy it now price  
  ???
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- 
    Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
    Chris 
    B 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
    Sunday, April 05, 2009 4:44 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: 
    Re: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  sorry, 
    meant to put quotes on that "M-1"  (T-1).
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ 
    yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou 
    ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, 
    April 5, 2009 4:43:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on 
    ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks to all for the information on the ebay items.

                                                                                                                                                                                  That M-1 
    might not be so bad a deal for $72?  

                                                                                                                                                                                  There's a clean one ending 
    in the next hour for at least $100 more.


                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
         
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  Enlarge
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        VINTAGE PENN LINE PRR T-1 METAL STREAMLINER 
          w SMOKE!
        This seller accepts PayPal
        10 Bids
        $171.50
        

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    From: John Hagen 
    <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 2:16:12 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] 
    items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  It would be pretty 
    hard to ID the GG1 from those pics but I’d take a stab at Penn Line. 
    Thinking the guy is selling some stuff from one person that had ‘em sitting 
    around for several years and that people tend to buy from the same maker, it 
    would go nicely with the Penn Line T-1 he is calling an 
    M-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western 
    Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical 
    Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
    vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 
    12:59
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
    vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on 
    ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  John, I have to agree on the 
    Lindsay.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm glad just to have good photos of the packaging 
    and parts, I think I may have some end sill castings that may be 
    similar.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Same with Sean's postings, usually I recognize his mustang 
    seller ID, just missed it this time.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I never minded less than 
    knowledgeable sellers when I went on a vintage switcher buying spree last 
    year for my W&OD roster.  I did get some terrific un-identified 
    deals.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't know enough about vintage GG1s or the other engine to 
    have a clue.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  But I am curious and hoped someone would take a 
    shot at identifying the makers, especially the GG1.  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I see 
    similar cast shells sometimes in my travels, and I'd hate to miss a good 
    find.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.     


                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: John 
    Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou 
    ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 
    5, 2009 1:03:36 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: 
    RE: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for 
    the posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Personally I 
    would love the Lindsay NW-2 but not at that price
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    And of 
    course Sean’s auctions are well done and informative.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Then we have 
    the other two. I hate it when people try to talk like they know something 
    but in reality haven’t a clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western 
    Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical 
    Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
    vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 
    10:23
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
    vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] items on 
    ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    On ebay 
    this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one with original 
    packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much that now I'm very 
    interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. Many of these 
    listings had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit 
    instructions.  

                                                                                                                                                                                   I'm not bidding on any of these, too many 
    hobbytown and other diecast diesels on the bench already, but...whenever 
    listings with good photos of vintage engines I'm not familiar with show 
    up,  I always grab a copy for my home picture files. I'm not likely to 
    ever own any vintage steam, but I can still admire the craftsmanship in the 
    castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris 
    Brannigan

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewLindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box 
          Vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now or Best Offer
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  $125.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE 
          TENDER 
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  Buy It Now
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  $72.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewBrass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale 
          Train
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.95
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          

                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  A
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE 
          SHIPPING 
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  2 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  $2.50
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
    shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN 
          LISTING
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
    shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING 
          - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free 
    shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN 
          CARS
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Bid
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO 
          size no chassi
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  $1.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  NewVINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE 
          GONDOLA HOPPER BOX
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  This seller accepts PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  		
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                  $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    



                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    


                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9471
						From: DiDi
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Streamlined Passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  FWIW, the Penn Line streamlines are still sold TODAY under the Life Like 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
name.  With Horizon dumping most of the Athean & MDC models, that makes 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
these some of oldest dies in continuous production in HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Cc: <lennard@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 10:56 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line Streamlined Passenger cars
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
     Pictures of 3 types of the 7 streamlined passenger cars marketed by 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Penn Line. Again they are factory painted with plastic bodies and heavy cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
metal trucks. Just like the heavyweights you could get other road names then 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the Pennsy. The lineage on the streamlined cars is a little shorter then the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
heavyweights. HObbyline, John English plastic produced a streamlined Coach 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
and Observation before their demise and Penn Line took them over and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
expanded the types available to 7.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Picture 1     Baggage
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Picture 2     Baggage / Mail
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Picture 3     Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  I am lucky to have many more PL streamlined in other road names but not 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
every one. Other 4 types of streamlined passenger cars next
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9472
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     His write up contains length of 10 and 
1/2 " which I thought was short for full size HO scale GG-1. 
That is why I wrote a word of caution to Jay W, John H, Chris B in my 
last Email about the ID. The whole description seller put in can't be believed 
and the bad pictures didn'r help.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 6:51 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on 
  ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Does the fact that he mentions a length of somewhere around 10 1/2" (I 
  don't 
                                                                                                                                                                                  recall exactly without looking at the auction again) help? That 
  seems short 
                                                                                                                                                                                  for a full length GG-1.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
  Sunday, April 05, 2009 1:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on 
  ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris 
                                                                                                                                                                                  I found your post and the pictures you are talking 
  about. I looked at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Cast Bronze/Brass GG-1 shell. Pictures are very 
  hard to see good detail at 
                                                                                                                                                                                  least what I got. The only two cast 
  brass/bronze full HO scale size GG-1 I 
                                                                                                                                                                                  know of are Schrader and George 
  Stock. FAMOCO's is cast metal. Again I tried 
                                                                                                                                                                                  to use what detail is able to 
  be seen on the body, top and side, but would 
                                                                                                                                                                                  be guessing unless it was 
  someone's own casting. Best I can do. Sorry

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original 
  Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
  Sunday, April 05, 2009 2:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on 
  ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  I must be getting missed by some Email post. You ask if 
  someone would ID 
                                                                                                                                                                                  especially the GG-1. I will go back to messages on site 
  and see if I can 
                                                                                                                                                                                  find your request and help.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original 
  Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
  Sunday, April 05, 2009 1:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on 
  ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  John, I have to agree on the Lindsay.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm glad just to have 
  good photos of the packaging and parts, I think I 
                                                                                                                                                                                  may have some end sill 
  castings that may be similar.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Same with Sean's postings, usually I 
  recognize his mustang seller ID, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  just missed it this time.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I never 
  minded less than knowledgeable sellers when I went on a vintage 
                                                                                                                                                                                  switcher 
  buying spree last year for my W&OD roster. I did get some terrific 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  un-identified deals.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't know enough about vintage GG1s or the 
  other engine to have a 
                                                                                                                                                                                  clue.

                                                                                                                                                                                  But I am curious and hoped someone 
  would take a shot at identifying the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  makers, especially the GG1.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I 
  see similar cast shells sometimes in my travels, and I'd hate to miss 
                                                                                                                                                                                  a 
  good find.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris 
  B.

                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
  Sunday, April 5, 2009 1:03:36 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] items on 
  ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for the posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Personally I would love the 
  Lindsay NW-2 but not at that price
                                                                                                                                                                                  And of course Sean’s auctions are well 
  done and informative.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Then we have the other two. I hate it when people try 
  to talk like 
                                                                                                                                                                                  they know something but in reality haven’t a clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                  John 
  Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western 
  Historical Society, Inc. 
  Newsletter

                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] 
                                                                                                                                                                                  On Behalf 
  Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 10:23
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou 
  ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] items on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                  On ebay this morning I saw 
  some nice vintage engines, at least one 
                                                                                                                                                                                  with original packaging I'd never 
  seen. This group has taught me so much 
                                                                                                                                                                                  that now I'm very interested in a 
  much wider range of vintage HO engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Many of these listings had nice 
  closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or 
                                                                                                                                                                                  kit instructions.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm 
  not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast 
                                                                                                                                                                                  diesels 
  on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of 
                                                                                                                                                                                  vintage 
  engines I'm not familiar with show up, I always grab a copy for my 
                                                                                                                                                                                  home 
  picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this 
  way.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris Brannigan

                                                                                                                                                                                  Lindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box 
  Vintage

                                                                                                                                                                                  $125.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free

                                                                                                                                                                                  HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE 
  TENDER

                                                                                                                                                                                  $72.00

                                                                                                                                                                                  Brass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale Train

                                                                                                                                                                                  0 
  Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.95

                                                                                                                                                                                  A

                                                                                                                                                                                  RARE 1st RUN VARNEY 0-4-0 LIL JOE STEAM LOCO - 
  IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING

                                                                                                                                                                                  2 
  Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  $2.50
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shipping

                                                                                                                                                                                  VARNEY 4-6-2 SUPER PACIFIC STEAM 
  LOCOMOTIVE - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN 
  LISTING

                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shippin

                                                                                                                                                                                  VARNEY 2-8-0 SUPER 
  CONSOLIDATION STEAM LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                  FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN 
  LISTING - IT RUNS

                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  Free shippin

                                                                                                                                                                                  VINTAGE HO 
  PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS

                                                                                                                                                                                  1 Bid
                                                                                                                                                                                  $9.99

                                                                                                                                                                                  Vintage Cast 
  Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi

                                                                                                                                                                                  0 
  Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  $1.99

                                                                                                                                                                                  VINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER 
  BOX

                                                                                                                                                                                  0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  $14.99

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9473
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Obscure HO items : HO Tools
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Gee, both my Kadee gauges are the older ones with the no. 4 coupler, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
didn't know they'd changed. :-)  I think I have one of those Kadee track 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
gauges around, I know I've got a cou-ple of Kemtron 3 pointers.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
One tool I don't have anymore but remember well was the Model Hobbies 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Spiker.  It had a track gauge in the underside and four holes that you 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
dropped round headed pins as "spikes", then a handle with 4 pins that pushed 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
all four spikes in at once.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Not a model railroad tool per se, but my table saw does have build date on 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
it of May 1956. :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: <Alpvalsys@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 11:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Obscure HO items : HO Tools
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> In a message dated 4/5/2009 11:42:46 AM EDT, Jay W wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have found an original Kadee coupler gauge with "K" style coupler
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ---------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I don't have any K-series couplers or gauge, but I do have a B-5 gauge for
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> MK-series couplers that is far superior to the #205 gauge that I bought 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> when I
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> thought I'd lost the B-5.  The #205 is supposed to be easier to assemble, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> but I
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> just can't get the #5 coupler to seat properly.  What would put off a lot 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> of
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> today's modelers is the fact that you had to peen over the post that held 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> cover on the B-5, sort of like assembling valve gear on some steam 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> locomotive
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> models.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Ralph B.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> or
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9474
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Last of PL streamlined
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  



 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                  The full length dome cars were the first passenger 
cars I got as a kid back in the early '60's. I've got two in green lettered for 
Great Northern. The dome on one is cracked and I found a pink undec a few years 
back that I bought to salvage the dome from. But I like the pink ... I found a 
great pair of trucks for it and installed Kadees ......
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 12:29 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Last of PL 
  streamlined
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     These are the last 4 types of Penn 
  Line streamlined passenger cars
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           
  Picture 1          Vista 
  Dome
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           
  Picture 2          Full Length 
  Dome.  Same body as Vista Dome but with full dome
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Picture 
  3          Domed Dine 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           
  Picture 
  4          Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     Lennard     This 
  will end the Penn Line items since I do not collect freight cars, unless part 
  of a set. I collect to many vintage trains and companies already. I hope you 
  are receiving all pictures and will have time to enter into an album. I will 
  give you time to catch up before sending any other companies right now. I will 
  pick another major company out and send those.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             Hope some 
  of these or better yet all are getting through to some as I see a few having 
  problems with the new Yahoo system. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9475
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Obscure HO items : HO Tools
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  I should look at the package........
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have a vintage set of hardened, tempered, drill guides for making  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
your own scale locomotive steam engine chassis's.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
DDA Locomotive Journal Guides
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dean Downer Associates, Los Gatos, Calif.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
On the box...  "Instructions and hardened steel guides for imported  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
and american axle sizes in HO-S-O gauge. Save $.. Make your own loco  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
frames, re-bearing, re-build any frame with this life-time quality DDA  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Journal Guide"
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   On Apr 5, 2009, at 10:41 AM, the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Talking about obsure HO scale models and assessories, how about  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> vintage HO modeling tools?  So far I have found an original Kadee  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> coupler gauge with "K" style coupler, an "Roundhouse Products"  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> knuckle coupler gauge which is an odd looking device that defies  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> description; a Kadee code 100/70 track gage and some small lost wax  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> brass hex head socket wrenches from Kemtron (may still be available  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> from Precision), the common Mantua brass tube wrench found in every  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> kit, and a few others.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> They come in handy sometimes, too!
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Hi Jay W., This may sound a little nuts, but nice find!  I enjoy  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> coming across odd stuff like this, even if it may only be worth a  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> dollar at the most, or maybe even a freebie thrown in with  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> something else.  It was a product of a respected manufacturer and  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> it's probably rarer than many kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Reminds me when I ran across a bunch of plastic Varney passenger  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> platform kits (with overhang), sealed in cellophane, for about a  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> buck apiece; I think there were about a dozen of them.  I grabbed  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> them all.  I seem to remember finding them mentioned or listed  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> somewhere, but just going through my catalogs (Varney) now, I can't  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> find them listed anywhere.  It's just a small item, which can't be  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> worth very much, yet it's scarce enough to be appreciated.  Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> Hi Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> A-C Paint! Found one of those minature 2 ounce A-C paint cans in a  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> large vintage estate lot a few years back, "P-10, Dull Black"  The  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> paper label in black & yellow on white and matches their early  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> graphics.  Used, with enough left in rim to leave an air tight  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> seal, so while the pigment has no doubt solidified into a rock- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> like mass, the carrier still happilly sloshes around inside.  Keep  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> it on my shelf, resting in an old glass ash tray, as with old  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> cans, one never knows!  I've seen others at shows in old paint lots.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> Not too many A-C parts around, but found a pair of A-C red plastic  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> (tenite?) bay window bays in their original A-C marked cello  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> envelope, saving those for now, possibly until I find a model  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> needing them for restoration or a kit with them missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9476
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Heavyweight Passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  It's working fine now......

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  On Apr 5, 2009, at 10:42 AM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  The new system worked well for me for a few times yesterday.  It has not worked since last night and today I get the following message every time... 
                                                                                                                                                                                  HTTP Status 500 -
                                                                                                                                                                                  I have not been able to view the GG1's nor any pics since.  Is anyone else having problems with it?  I am on DSL.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                  =====================================================

                                                                                                                                                                                  jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     These 3 pictures are half of the different types (6) of standard Penn Line heavyweight cars. These are all factory painted. Again I'm not showing or naming all the rail roads Penn Line painted their cars, just the different types. I have many other Penn Line heavyweight passenger cars in my collection from different roads but not everyone YET.
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture one      Baggage .............
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9477
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Heavyweight Passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


  
  

 
Thanks...  It's working again for me also.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
=============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  It's working fine now......
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  On Apr 5, 2009, at 10:42 AM, Donald R. Staton wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  The new system worked well
for me for a few times yesterday.  It has not worked since last night
and today I get the following message every time... 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  HTTP Status 500 -
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    I have not been able to view the GG1's nor any pics since.  Is
anyone else having problems with it?  I am on DSL.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =====
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
jim heckard wrote:
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      

                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     These 3 pictures are half of
the different types (6) of standard Penn Line heavyweight cars. These
are all factory painted. Again I'm not showing or naming all the rail
roads Penn Line painted their cars, just the different types. I have
many other Penn Line heavyweight passenger cars in my collection from
different roads but not everyone YET.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture one      Baggage
............ .
                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9478
						From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                  Hey Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a nice SP and a Sante Fe Steam engine in the OBs by Penn 
Line. I also Have a very nice B&O steam engine by Penn Line...Havent been 
able to figure out if its a redo or what but it looks factory done to me....Bill 
in oregon

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.  See yours in just 2 easy steps!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9479
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  



 
 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Are these actually PRR locos lettered for SP, SR, and B&O?  Didn't 
recall Penn Line having non-PRR steam locos (other than the early 
Crusader?)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 7:28 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More Penn Line 
  seam
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hey Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a nice SP and a Sante Fe Steam engine in the OBs by Penn 
  Line. I also Have a very nice B&O steam engine by Penn Line...Havent been 
  able to figure out if its a redo or what but it looks factory done to 
  me....Bill in oregon

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See 
  yours in just 2 easy steps!                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

                                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
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  www.avg.com 
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9480
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: what is it
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H., John H. Chris B. and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sorry could not reply last night, back late from a wake of a friend of almost 30 years and member of our community service club (Rotary), gone suddenly too soon (60 -- unforseen brain hemmorage) and up eary now to get ready for funeral.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim, those pantograph mounting "bumps" were what convinced me.  Did not know of the roof-top access hatch placement.  I did see the cast on herald evidence, but reasoned that this could have been an early, non-prototypical detail that Schader could have easily removed from the mold sometime in production just as I believe he added other details.  But those "bumps" convinced me I was on the right trail.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
John, although incandescent lighting can make zamac castings appear a tarnished brass or bronze color, I was convinced early on this was not a Penn Line or Famoco as both of them have recesses cast between the side doors for the sand hatches; in addition Penn Line has cast on "nibs" for mounting the pantographs that are raised from the surface of the hoods; even if filed off, their remains would not be as prominant as "bumps" or extensions on the unit in question.  Lastly, the window and vent area immediately next to the side windows has the "raw" look of a Schrader (or Stock) unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim, after sleeping on it, I went downstairs a few minutes ago and checked my Schrader assembly booklet and Jim, the drawing shows the body casting with the raised Keystone on the side!!!  So it must have been there in at least early Schrader production!!!  I have five Schrader factory photographs used for promotion, (found in a Louis Hertz file at a "Lionel" show, and will try to locate those showing both Schrader models and a factory show display.  Will try to find them after the funeral and see if they offer clues or confirmation.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay W, John H, Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>          I was going to pass trying to ID that GG-1 body but you have peaked my interest. Since the info given can't be verified and the pictures poor figuring it out will be hard. Add to that is it Bronze / Brass or what.  Is it in fact HO. Could it be double O like I think it was called Maxon. Could it be a casting done by some one ?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>         I took some of the better pictures and tried to enlarge them. I have a magnifying glass looking at these and I'm still not totally sure what it is but leaning towards Schrader for these reasons and details. Schrader had the little "bumps" as part of the casting where the pantographs go. George Stock did not. Those rectangle shapes on the top of the body are centered and only those  appear centered on Schrader. Stocks were off center as there was a little circle detail at one end. I was ready to say SCHRADER 90% until I saw one little detail that is on Stock GG-bodies but not Schrader. There is a little casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact middle.Schrader does NOT have this as it is smooth. On the other hand Stock has a little raised keystone shape cast on his body in that location.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>        I have to drop it down to 75% thinking Schrader. All that said still unsure.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                             Big help.                                                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9481
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: what is it - cast GG-1
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Here is the link for the Schrader "version 2" instructions at HO seeker that shows both the pantograph mounting "bumps" and the raised keystone:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.hoseeker.org/schrader/shradergg1version2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Interesting, the Schrader "version 1" instructions on HO Seeker do not show the "bumps" but did show the raised kestone as well, seeming to indicate a clear lineage, a carry-over from Geo. Stock days.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, good luck on your tests today, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Jim H., John H. Chris B. and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sorry could not reply last night, back late from a wake of a friend of almost 30 years and member of our community service club (Rotary), gone suddenly too soon (60 -- unforseen brain hemmorage) and up eary now to get ready for funeral.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim, those pantograph mounting "bumps" were what convinced me. Did not know of the roof-top access hatch placement. I did see the cast on herald evidence, but reasoned that this could have been an early, non-prototypical detail that Schader could have easily removed from the mold sometime in production just as I believe he added other details. But those "bumps" convinced me I was on the right trail.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > John, although incandescent lighting can make zamac castings appear a tarnished brass or bronze color, I was convinced early on this was not a Penn Line or Famoco as both of them have recesses cast between the side doors for the sand hatches; in addition Penn Line has cast on "nibs" for mounting the pantographs that are raised from the surface of the hoods; even if filed off, their remains would not be as prominant as "bumps" or extensions on the unit in question. Lastly, the window and vent area immediately next to the side windows has the "raw" look of a Schrader (or Stock) unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim, after sleeping on it, I went downstairs a few minutes ago and checked my Schrader assembly booklet and Jim, the drawing shows the body casting with the raised Keystone on the side!!! So it must have been there in at least early Schrader production!!! I have five Schrader factory photographs used for promotion, (found in a Louis Hertz file at a "Lionel" show, and will try to locate those showing both Schrader models and a factory show display. Will try to find them after the funeral and see if they offer clues or confirmation.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jay W, John H, Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I was going to pass trying to ID that GG-1 body but you have peaked my interest. Since the info given can't be verified and the pictures poor figuring it out will be hard. Add to that is it Bronze / Brass or what. Is it in fact HO. Could it be double O like I think it was called Maxon. Could it be a casting done by some one ?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I took some of the better pictures and tried to enlarge them. I have a magnifying glass looking at these and I'm still not totally sure what it is but leaning towards Schrader for these reasons and details. Schrader had the little "bumps" as part of the casting where the pantographs go. George Stock did not. Those rectangle shapes on the top of the body are centered and only those appear centered on Schrader. Stocks were off center as there was a little circle detail at one end. I was ready to say SCHRADER 90% until I saw one little detail that is on Stock GG-bodies but not Schrader. There is a little casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact middle.Schrader does NOT have this as it is smooth. On the other hand Stock has a little raised keystone shape cast on his body in that location.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I have to drop it down to 75% thinking Schrader. All that said still unsure.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Big help. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9482
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: more Penn Line
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  RE: the plastic bodied Whitcomn.....
                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have several of the metal bodied versions including
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the large and small wheeled versions.  I've never seen
                                                                                                                                                                                  
or handled the plastic bodied version and wonder how
                                                                                                                                                                                  
well it pulled a string of cars.  The metal bodied
                                                                                                                                                                                  
ones I have do well - 6 or 7.  The plastic bodied 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
version must be lighter and therefore less capable???
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>      The pictures are the three versions of the Penn Line "Whitcomb" midget diesel. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>       Picture one.   D-1 (first version)   Body is made from lead. Detail on the hood is added.  Motor / Drive is pulleys using an O ring. Very unusual electrical pick up. (see HOseeker for paperwork)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>       Picture two    D-2 version. Metal body with better detail especially rivets. Parts on top of hood are cast on. Motor / Drive is gear to gear with motor turned the opposite way from the D-1 version.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>       Picture three   D-3 same body detail as D-2 version but made from molded plastic. Used the D-2 motor / drive 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>       These pictures have appeared before and a discussion about the Penn Line Whitcomb took place. I'm sending these for new members, people whocould not get attachments and to Lennard S who is making my albums. I did have a picture sent to me, from a good friend and PL collector, of a Penn Line boxed, ready to run Whitcomb that was one with a PLASTIC body labeled for U.S. Steel. If this old brain remembers right the number for the item was 600.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>      Next will be Penn Line passenger cars both Standard Heavyweight and Streamlined
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9483
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: what is it - cast GG-1
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                         Not that it 
matters but did you see where the Schrader  GG-1 (version 1 & 
2) plus EP 4 plans came from? As I had mentioned I'm leery about the write 
up. The man tried to tell it like it is but might not be right.The 10 and 
1/2"length he cites would be a "full" HO scale size for Schrader and Stock. Penn 
Line & the HOTCO copy GG-1's are roughly only 9 and 1/2".
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Tonight after I get back I will dig into 
both Schrader and Stock plus any relationship between their designs. I will take 
pictures of both of my engines (nice to actually have in hand to check as 
drawings not always right either)side, underneath and especially the top of both 
to show the detail I talk about. Can't do it now. I'm even thinking of bidding 
on this GG-1, not that I need it, just to get it and be sure of what it is. 
Later must leave shortly.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 6:03 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: what is it - 
  cast GG-1
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Here is the link for the Schrader "version 2" instructions at HO seeker 
  that shows both the pantograph mounting "bumps" and the raised keystone:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.hoseeker .org/schrader/ shradergg1versio n2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Interesting, the Schrader "version 1" instructions on HO Seeker do not show 
  the "bumps" but did show the raised kestone as well, seeming to indicate a 
  clear lineage, a carry-over from Geo. Stock days.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, good luck on your tests today, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "the_plainsman" 
  <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Jim H., John H. Chris 
  B. and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sorry could not reply last night, back late from 
  a wake of a friend of almost 30 years and member of our community service club 
  (Rotary), gone suddenly too soon (60 -- unforseen brain hemmorage) and up eary 
  now to get ready for funeral.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim, those pantograph mounting 
  "bumps" were what convinced me. Did not know of the roof-top access hatch 
  placement. I did see the cast on herald evidence, but reasoned that this could 
  have been an early, non-prototypical detail that Schader could have easily 
  removed from the mold sometime in production just as I believe he added other 
  details. But those "bumps" convinced me I was on the right trail.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > John, although incandescent lighting can make zamac castings appear a 
  tarnished brass or bronze color, I was convinced early on this was not a Penn 
  Line or Famoco as both of them have recesses cast between the side doors for 
  the sand hatches; in addition Penn Line has cast on "nibs" for mounting the 
  pantographs that are raised from the surface of the hoods; even if filed off, 
  their remains would not be as prominant as "bumps" or extensions on the unit 
  in question. Lastly, the window and vent area immediately next to the side 
  windows has the "raw" look of a Schrader (or Stock) unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  Jim, after sleeping on it, I went downstairs a few minutes ago and checked my 
  Schrader assembly booklet and Jim, the drawing shows the body casting with the 
  raised Keystone on the side!!! So it must have been there in at least early 
  Schrader production!! ! I have five Schrader factory photographs used for 
  promotion, (found in a Louis Hertz file at a "Lionel" show, and will try to 
  locate those showing both Schrader models and a factory show display. Will try 
  to find them after the funeral and see if they offer clues or 
  confirmation.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > Jay W, John H, Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I was going to pass trying to ID 
  that GG-1 body but you have peaked my interest. Since the info given can't be 
  verified and the pictures poor figuring it out will be hard. Add to that is it 
  Bronze / Brass or what. Is it in fact HO. Could it be double O like I think it 
  was called Maxon. Could it be a casting done by some one ?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I took 
  some of the better pictures and tried to enlarge them. I have a magnifying 
  glass looking at these and I'm still not totally sure what it is but leaning 
  towards Schrader for these reasons and details. Schrader had the little 
  "bumps" as part of the casting where the pantographs go. George Stock did not. 
  Those rectangle shapes on the top of the body are centered and only those 
  appear centered on Schrader. Stocks were off center as there was a little 
  circle detail at one end. I was ready to say SCHRADER 90% unti l I saw one 
  little detail that is on Stock GG-bodies but not Schrader. There is a little 
  casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the 
  windows in the exact middle.Schrader does NOT have this as it is smooth. On 
  the other hand Stock has a little raised keystone shape cast on his body in 
  that location.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I have to drop it down to 75% thinking Schrader. 
  All that said still unsure.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Big help. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9484
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                     Glenn, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         Later today I 
can send you a picture of a factory painted Penn Line steam engine mint in box 
lettered for the Southern Pacific. As for the other B&O and Santa Fe I can't 
say. Had never heard of these or seen.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     Must shut done and leave till later 
tonight.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  Glenn476 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 2:54 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More Penn Line 
  seam
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Are these actually PRR locos lettered for SP, SR, and B&O?  
  Didn't recall Penn Line having non-PRR steam locos (other than the early 
  Crusader?)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 7:28 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More Penn Line 
    seam
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hey Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a nice SP and a Sante Fe Steam engine in the OBs by Penn 
    Line. I also Have a very nice B&O steam engine by Penn Line...Havent 
    been able to figure out if its a redo or what but it looks factory done to 
    me....Bill in oregon

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See 
    yours in just 2 easy steps!                                                                                                                                                                                   
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  

    

                                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
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    www.avg.com 
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9485
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: what is it
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jay and Jim, Like you guys, I can't confirm this guy's GG-1 manufacturer, but from what I see Jim mentioning from his blown-up pics of this guy's poor photos, I'd have to say it's Schrader.  Never mind about any "possible implications" of your GG-1 plans either Jay, or having to be leery about them.  I do note that Jim states, "There is a little casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact middle.  Schrader does not have this as it is smooth.  On the other hand Stock has a little raised Keystone shape casting on his body in that location."
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim, I know you have a Schrader GG-1, or at least you've identified your brass/bronze GG-1 as Schrader; how have you identified it (did it come it the original box, for instance?)?  I do notice though, that you have both the Stock and the Schrader GG-1's and will take photos of them later.  A question in my mind is that I'm strongly suspecting you may have these two engines mixed up with one another -- the reason for my question on how you came to identify the Schrader.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Now getting back to needing to be leery of Jay's Schrader GG-1 plans -- and my questioning on the I.D. of Jim's Schrader GG-1 -- which, when noting the raised keystone shaped casting on the body, "does not have this as it is smooth."  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
My TWO mint in original box Schrader GG-1 kits BOTH have this raised keystone casting on the body at the location described, and the plans that came with these kits clearly show this raised keystone as well.  I don't know if George Stock's GG-1 had this, as my Geo. Stock catalog does not show such detail in its photos (I do not have a Stock GG-1).  I am wondering though, (1) if your (Jim's) GG-1 without the raised keystone casting is perhaps a George Stock as it doesn't match my Schrader GG-1's.  I really don't know if my two (both identical) Schrader GG-1's are version 1's or version 2's, but if they're version 2's -- as Jay's plans indicate this version having these raised keystones -- it wouldn't make sense that Schrader version 1 would not have these raised keystones.  These raised keystones on this eBay model in question also have these raised keystones, and is the reason why I feel it's a Schrader.  If George Stock also had raised keystones, then at least we can't rule this mystery engine out as a Schrader, even if it turns out to be a Geo. Stock. BUT, then -- where does that leave the smooth-sided body GG-1? Jim, I hope all goes well with your tests today. Ciao, Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Jim H., John H. Chris B. and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sorry could not reply last night, back late from a wake of a friend of almost 30 years and member of our community service club (Rotary), gone suddenly too soon (60 -- unforseen brain hemmorage) and up eary now to get ready for funeral.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jim, those pantograph mounting "bumps" were what convinced me.  Did not know of the roof-top access hatch placement.  I did see the cast on herald evidence, but reasoned that this could have been an early, non-prototypical detail that Schader could have easily removed from the mold sometime in production just as I believe he added other details.  But those "bumps" convinced me I was on the right trail.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> John, although incandescent lighting can make zamac castings appear a tarnished brass or bronze color, I was convinced early on this was not a Penn Line or Famoco as both of them have recesses cast between the side doors for the sand hatches; in addition Penn Line has cast on "nibs" for mounting the pantographs that are raised from the surface of the hoods; even if filed off, their remains would not be as prominant as "bumps" or extensions on the unit in question.  Lastly, the window and vent area immediately next to the side windows has the "raw" look of a Schrader (or Stock) unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jim, after sleeping on it, I went downstairs a few minutes ago and checked my Schrader assembly booklet and Jim, the drawing shows the body casting with the raised Keystone on the side!!!  So it must have been there in at least early Schrader production!!!  I have five Schrader factory photographs used for promotion, (found in a Louis Hertz file at a "Lionel" show, and will try to locate those showing both Schrader models and a factory show display.  Will try to find them after the funeral and see if they offer clues or confirmation.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Jay W, John H, Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >          I was going to pass trying to ID that GG-1 body but you have peaked my interest. Since the info given can't be verified and the pictures poor figuring it out will be hard. Add to that is it Bronze / Brass or what.  Is it in fact HO. Could it be double O like I think it was called Maxon. Could it be a casting done by some one ?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >         I took some of the better pictures and tried to enlarge them. I have a magnifying glass looking at these and I'm still not totally sure what it is but leaning towards Schrader for these reasons and details. Schrader had the little "bumps" as part of the casting where the pantographs go. George Stock did not. Those rectangle shapes on the top of the body are centered and only those  appear centered on Schrader. Stocks were off center as there was a little circle detail at one end. I was ready to say SCHRADER 90% until I saw one little detail that is on Stock GG-bodies but not Schrader. There is a little casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact middle.Schrader does NOT have this as it is smooth. On the other hand Stock has a little raised keystone shape cast on his body in that location.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >        I have to drop it down to 75% thinking Schrader. All that said still unsure.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >                             Big help.                                                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9486
						From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                  These are all by Penn Line and not that easy to find. Understand 
they are very late production in an effort to keep up sales...
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  SP 2-8-0 in OB
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  SF 4-4-2 in OB
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   The B&O 4-4-2 is a different story, some say its a custom 
job by a modeler and other think that's its original PL. In my opinion it looks 
factory done but so far I havent been able to find another one....Bill In SunnY 
oregon

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.  See yours in just 2 easy steps!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9487
						From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   Our mutual Penn Line Collector friend says the Santa Fe 4-4-2 
is original. Hes not sure about the B&O 4-4-2 but to me it looks factory 
done, and if its not, some modeler did an awesome job of painting etc...Bill in 
Oregon

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.  See yours in just 2 easy steps!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9488
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay, As for George Stock getting his original GG-1 mold from Ed Alexander, as Jim pointed out, Stock was a master machinist -- he didn't need to buy anything from another manufacturer.  Besides, Stock started producing GG-1's in 1936 (he started his business in 1930) and I don't believe Ed Alexander was on the scene yet at that time.  George Stock's machinist expertise was such that he custom built (from raw brass stock) his offerings of H0 locomotives for his customers.  One notation that should finalize whether Stock bought any of his GG-1 components, body mold included, can be found as a description of his "GG-1 LOCOMOTIVE KIT" in his 1947 catalog where he goes on to say (under this heading), "The originator of the loco kit -- known to the HO fan since 1936!   This loco, patterned after the PRR class GG-1 electric loco, (4-6-6-4) is the only twin motor model available.  Chassis which comes 100% complete is die cast, drive wheels are brass.  All gears are installed. 2 Pittman DC60 motors provide enormous power. Bronze cab is completely drilled. . . . "
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
As is noted, he states he's the originator of these GG-1 kits.  Under the remainder of Stock's line of locomotives in his catalog, headed only as "CUSTOM LOCOMOTIVES", he says, "We can build special locomotives to your order.  All locos are made of brass, with infinite care laid to detail and workmanship.  We have an established reputation for work of this type and we are the only HO firm in the USA that offers this service. . . . "  Under this, he lists an offering of some 20 different wheel-arrangement locomotives (w/tenders) which states he will make for any Road configuration -- from 0-4-0's to articulateds and everything in between.  This is his line of loco's, the customer chooses which loco he wants Stock to build for him.  By this, it can be seen that he made everything he sold as his own brand.  At this same time, Stock also offered locomotive and rolling stock from 18 other manufacturers (Mantua, Varney, A-C, Picard, Ideal, Pacific H0, Sampson, etc.) as part of what he carried.  Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> You were quicker while I was still looking up your photos!  Can you or someone else confirm that George Stock sold his molds to Schrader?  I think I read that somewhere and that Schrader then upgraded the kit with a better drive chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I also read somewhere that George Stock got the original mold from Ed Alexander, maybe in Carsten's Book.  Anyone know more about that geneology?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Hi Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > The GG-1 being Cast Brass or Bronze, would be a Schrader or Geo. Stock and from the poor photos, it definitely looks like one of those, my guess probably Schader; they were more widely available, too.  Jim H has photos of both in his Album here.  If I'm not mistaken, I think Scrader acquired the molds for Stock and then upgraded the model?  Or am I mistaken, all?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > On ebay this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one with original packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much that now I'm very interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit instructions.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy for my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > ChrisBrannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  Lindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage   $125.00 Free  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER    $72.00 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  Brass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale Train  0 Bids $9.95 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  A 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  RARE 1st RUN VARNEY 0-4-0 LIL JOE STEAM LOCO - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING   2 Bids $2.50 Free shipping 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  VARNEY 4-6-2 SUPER PACIFIC STEAM LOCOMOTIVE - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING  4 Bids $22.75 Free shippin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  VARNEY 2-8-0 SUPER CONSOLIDATION STEAM LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT RUNS  4 Bids $22.75 Free shippin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  VINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS  1 Bid $9.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  Vintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi  0 Bids $1.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  VINTAGE HO MODEL TRAIN REPAIR & REPLACEMENT PARTS LOT  0 Bids $19.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >   VINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX  0 Bids $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9489
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: items on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  You are too kind. I like to think I can and should contribute when I can. This hobby has given me a tremendous amount of pleasure.. (all while causing my dear wife a ton of grief..)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  It is just good to know there is someplace we can go when we have found something new (to us) where we may be able to discover the origin of the item... Or in some cases, find out the what we have was not previously known or even believed to actually exist by the vast majority of the hobby community..
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  as in the case of the Mantua Mountain Type Mechanism kit I stumbled upon last year..  Everyone always talked about the rarity of the consolidation, but never mentioned the mountain.. Still looking for that ever elusive Pacific to complete my pre-war line however.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 6:49:26 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 12:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  > Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thanks for the posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Personally I would love the Lindsay NW-2 but not at that price.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > And of course Sean's auctions are well done and informative.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Then we have the other two. I hate it when people try to talk like they 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > know
                                                                                                                                                                                  > something but in reality haven't a clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter

                                                                                                                                                                                  You mean you don't want a "coal
 car" to go with those "rare vintage" stock 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Athearn passenger cars?

                                                                                                                                                                                  Actually we can thank eBay for Sean being here. I mentioned the group to 
                                                                                                                                                                                  him when I bought my FM Erie Built from him, and he promptly joined.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/
 group/scenery


                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9490
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay, As for George Stock getting his original GG-1 mold from Ed Alexander, as Jim pointed out, Stock was a master machinist -- he didn't need to buy anything from another manufacturer.  Besides, Stock started producing GG-1's in 1936 (he started his business in 1930) and I don't believe Ed Alexander was on the scene yet at that time.  George Stock's machinist expertise was such that he custom built (from raw brass stock) his offerings of H0 locomotives for his customers.  One notation that should finalize whether Stock bought any of his GG-1 components, body mold included, can be found as a description of his "GG-1 LOCOMOTIVE KIT" in his 1947 catalog where he goes on to say (under this heading), "The originator of the loco kit -- known to the HO fan since 1936!   This loco, patterned after the PRR class GG-1 electric loco, (4-6-6-4) is the only twin motor model available.  Chassis which comes 100% complete is die cast, drive wheels are brass.  All gears are installed. 2 Pittman DC60 motors provide enormous power. Bronze cab is completely drilled. . . . "
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
As is noted, he states he's the originator of these GG-1 kits.  Under the remainder of Stock's line of locomotives in his catalog, headed only as "CUSTOM LOCOMOTIVES", he says, "We can build special locomotives to your order.  All locos are made of brass, with infinite care laid to detail and workmanship.  We have an established reputation for work of this type and we are the only HO firm in the USA that offers this service. . . . "  Under this, he lists an offering of some 20 different wheel-arrangement locomotives (w/tenders) which states he will make for any Road configuration -- from 0-4-0's to articulateds and everything in between.  This is his line of loco's, the customer chooses which loco he wants Stock to build for him.  By this, it can be seen that he made everything he sold as his own brand.  At this same time, Stock also offered locomotive and rolling stock from 18 other manufacturers (Mantua, Varney, A-C, Picard, Ideal, Pacific H0, Sampson, etc.) as part of what he carried.  Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> You were quicker while I was still looking up your photos!  Can you or someone else confirm that George Stock sold his molds to Schrader?  I think I read that somewhere and that Schrader then upgraded the kit with a better drive chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I also read somewhere that George Stock got the original mold from Ed Alexander, maybe in Carsten's Book.  Anyone know more about that geneology?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Hi Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > The GG-1 being Cast Brass or Bronze, would be a Schrader or Geo. Stock and from the poor photos, it definitely looks like one of those, my guess probably Schader; they were more widely available, too.  Jim H has photos of both in his Album here.  If I'm not mistaken, I think Scrader acquired the molds for Stock and then upgraded the model?  Or am I mistaken, all?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > On ebay this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one with original packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much that now I'm very interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit instructions.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy for my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > ChrisBrannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  Lindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage   $125.00 Free  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER    $72.00 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  Brass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale Train  0 Bids $9.95 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  A 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  RARE 1st RUN VARNEY 0-4-0 LIL JOE STEAM LOCO - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING   2 Bids $2.50 Free shipping 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  VARNEY 4-6-2 SUPER PACIFIC STEAM LOCOMOTIVE - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING  4 Bids $22.75 Free shippin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  VARNEY 2-8-0 SUPER CONSOLIDATION STEAM LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT RUNS  4 Bids $22.75 Free shippin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  VINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS  1 Bid $9.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  Vintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi  0 Bids $1.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  VINTAGE HO MODEL TRAIN REPAIR & REPLACEMENT PARTS LOT  0 Bids $19.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >   VINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX  0 Bids $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9491
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  



 
 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                  one thing I look at to determine factory paint is the lettering--look for 
evidence of decal film--Champ and Walthers had fairly heavy film, so an edge 
will show. Standard gauge roads never really got the fine decals until 
Micro Scale came along   Also, how the model appears to have been 
masked for painting will tell.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:13 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More Penn Line 
  seam
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  These are all by Penn Line and not that easy to find. Understand 
  they are very late production in an effort to keep up sales...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  SP 2-8-0 in OB
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  SF 4-4-2 in OB
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   The B&O 4-4-2 is a different story, some say its a 
  custom job by a modeler and other think that's its original PL. In my opinion 
  it looks factory done but so far I havent been able to find another 
  one....Bill In SunnY oregon

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See 
  yours in just 2 easy steps!                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

                                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.43/2043 - Release 
  Date: 04/06/09 06:22:00
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9492
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  



 
 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                  BTW, Bill--Where in Sunny Oregon?  What I can see of it from here 
definitely looks sunny.   gj in Yreka
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:13 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More Penn Line 
  seam
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  These are all by Penn Line and not that easy to find. Understand 
  they are very late production in an effort to keep up sales...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  SP 2-8-0 in OB
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  SF 4-4-2 in OB
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   The B&O 4-4-2 is a different story, some say its a 
  custom job by a modeler and other think that's its original PL. In my opinion 
  it looks factory done but so far I havent been able to find another 
  one....Bill In SunnY oregon

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See 
  yours in just 2 easy steps!                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

                                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.43/2043 - Release 
  Date: 04/06/09 06:22:00
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9493
						From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                  I ve put the B&O side by side with the multitude of other Penn 
Line steam engines I have and in my eyes its looks just like a factory paint job 
and the lettering and numbers dont have that "decal" look..I will have to 
compare it again today...my curiosity is startin to get the best of me...I know 
there is a pic of all 3 engines in my photo album " Bills Penn Line" I believe 
its called

                                                                                                                                                                                   
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9494
						From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                  I live in Tillamook Oregon...famous for its cheese and Ice 
cream...and lots and lots of stinky cows!!!!! We call it the smell of money here 
even though Im not a dairy farmer

                                                                                                                                                                                   
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9495
						From: Mike Sloane
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Vintage HO website.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  I may have missed other folks mentioning it, but there is a very good 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
vintage HO website that has lots of good information. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
<http://www.ho-scaletrains.net/>
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sorry if everyone else knows about it, but I just found it by accident.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9496
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  



 
 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                  ranch between me and I-5 runs beef cattle--just moved them in this 
week.  At one time I was planning to model the Tillamook branch--I had seen 
parts of it when I was attending Pacific U around 1960.  I had a Max Gray 
SP TW-8 in O Scale--gj
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:47 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More Penn Line 
  seam
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  I live in Tillamook Oregon...famous for its cheese and Ice 
  cream...and lots and lots of stinky cows!!!!! We call it the smell of money 
  here even though Im not a dairy farmer

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See 
  yours in just 2 easy steps!                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

                                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
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  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.43/2043 - Release 
  Date: 04/06/09 06:22:00
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9497
						From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                  Tillamook branch is down from storm damage a couple years ago, most 
likely to never be repaired again do to lack of funding. Lots of train cars and 
engines stuck every wheres. be interesting to see how they get the rail cars 
out. I think they will still have the tourist trains running in the summer but I 
havent heard yet

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.  See yours in just 2 easy steps!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9498
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  



 
 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                  I recall those storms--Was reminded of them on "Ax Men" on History 
Channel--last year they were working near Vernonia.  I have pix somewhere 
of the 2 OALCo 2-6-2"s and all the old OE cars  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:09 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More Penn Line 
  seam
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Tillamook branch is down from storm damage a couple years ago, 
  most likely to never be repaired again do to lack of funding. Lots of train 
  cars and engines stuck every wheres. be interesting to see how they get the 
  rail cars out. I think they will still have the tourist trains running in the 
  summer but I havent heard yet

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See 
  yours in just 2 easy steps!                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

                                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.43/2043 - Release 
  Date: 04/06/09 06:22:00
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9499
						From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Penn Line seam
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                  Yep...that's the storms..we had water come up to about 4 inches 
from coming in our house. I should get out and about and take pics of some of 
the old stuff they have sitting around

                                                                                                                                                                                   
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9500
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Vintage HO website.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  No Varney!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   > I may have missed other folks mentioning it, but there is a very good 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> vintage HO website that has lots of good information. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> <http://www.ho-scaletrains.net/>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sorry if everyone else knows about it, but I just found it by accident.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9501
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jay, John H, Chris B, All, Everyone 
interested, Etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
I just got back from my appointment and haven't read any post since I left. I 
wanted to get these pictures and information to people " hot of the presses" and 
fresh in my mind.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                             The pictures 
will show the G Stock ( first 3) and the Schrader (last 3) GG-1s and 
close ups of certain details. These pictures were taken to try to ID a GG-1 on 
Ebay with an iffy description and very poor pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                             Before I 
list the things I have found in relationship to some details in the Ebay 
pictures I am more convinced the item is NOT Stock or Schrader but an unknown, 
or different version and maybe even a custom made GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                             First on to 
small details that can be seen in the pictures that appear on either the Stock 
or Schrader version but not all on both.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Three small details appear on the bad Ebay 
pictures. Bumps in the casting around where the pantographs appear, roof design 
showing two CENTERED rectangles and the last detail on the side between the 
windows that looks like a raised keystone.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Lets go to the first three pictures of the Stock GG-1. Picture two shows a 
raised keystone detail that is part of the mold. However (picture 3) you can see 
the roof detail has two rectangles off center and a little round hole at one 
end. While not as clear in picture one there are no bumps  where the 
pantographs go. Only one of three details appear on the Stock GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Pictures of Schrader GG-1. While not clear (picture 4) there are bumps in the 
casting for the places a pantograph goes. Picture 5 shows NO raised keystone 
detail. Picture 6 shows the centered panels on the roof. Schrader GG-1 has 2 of 
the three little details. The exploded view of Schrader GG-1 , version 1 & 2 
, might show a detail but I think drawn in because these drawings also show a 
two tier detail on top of the roof and that's not right. Another detail I just 
realialized that is on the Schrader body (picture 4) is a place on both sides 
but opposite ends where a grill or ventilator goes. This does not appear in the 
pictures on Ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                              I wish the 
pictures on Ebay better showed the wheels and sideframes which might give more 
hints . Stock had cast metal (zamac) frame,sideframes with brass drivers, 
Schrader had all brass frame, sideframes and drivers..
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                               
The 10 and 1/2 length mentioned by the seller, if true,  rules out any Penn 
Line (9 and 1/2") as does material.The Stock and Schrader GG-1's are suppose to 
be full scale HO size and my samples measure out to 10 and 1/2"
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           To 
many facts being stated, to easy to screw up (mix,forget,switch).Based on 
everything I honestly don't think it is either Stock or Schrader. A detail 
just noticed on the poor Ebay pictures "looks like a rib in the casting going 
full length on the side of the body about the mid way point.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
I DON"'T THINK EITHER STOCK OR SCHRADER.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9502
						From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Vintage HO website.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                  No Penn Line!

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.  See yours in just 2 easy steps!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9503
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Ray W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I lost out on an eBay auction of a George Stock catalog in the past year or so!  If that was you who outbid me, glad as its information is being shared.  In the quote provided, Mr. Stock seems very emphatic about being the originator of the complete powered kit.  I will try to pin down where I read of the connection with Ed Alexander's pioneering HO work in the early to mid 1930's; that writer may not have been accurate.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  At any rate George Stock's excellent work is a fact, and as evidence, I have created a new photo album, George Stock's Locomotives and Cars.  The first photo is of a George Stock custom built, painted and hand lettered New York Central Niagara that was built for a Maryland modeler in the early 1950's and was sold by his estate on eBay about three years ago.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  It is an open album that anyone may add photos of George Stock's locomotives and cars and credit to their collection, etc.  One popular commercial kit that saw widespread distribution was Stock's cast brass/bronze scale test car.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jay, As for George Stock getting his original GG-1 mold from Ed Alexander, as Jim pointed out, Stock was a master machinist -- he didn't need to buy anything from another manufacturer. Besides, Stock started producing GG-1's in 1936 (he started his business in 1930) and I don't believe Ed Alexander was on the scene yet at that time. George Stock's machinist expertise was such that he custom built (from raw brass stock) his offerings of H0 locomotives for his customers. One notation that should finalize whether Stock bought any of his GG-1 components, body mold included, can be found as a description of his "GG-1 LOCOMOTIVE KIT" in his 1947 catalog where he goes on to say (under this heading), "The originator of the loco kit -- known to the HO fan since 1936! This loco, patterned after the PRR class GG-1 electric loco, (4-6-6-4) is the only twin motor model available. Chassis which comes 100% complete is die cast, drive wheels are brass. All gears are installed. 2 Pittman DC60 motors provide enormous power. Bronze cab is completely drilled. . . . "
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > As is noted, he states he's the originator of these GG-1 kits. Under the remainder of Stock's line of locomotives in his catalog, headed only as "CUSTOM LOCOMOTIVES", he says, "We can build special locomotives to your order. All locos are made of brass, with infinite care laid to detail and workmanship. We have an established reputation for work of this type and we are the only HO firm in the USA that offers this service. . . . " Under this, he lists an offering of some 20 different wheel-arrangement locomotives (w/tenders) which states he will make for any Road configuration -- from 0-4-0's to articulateds and everything in between. This is his line of loco's, the customer chooses which loco he wants Stock to build for him. By this, it can be seen that he made everything he sold as his own brand. At this same time, Stock also offered locomotive and rolling stock from 18 other manufacturers (Mantua, Varney, A-C, Picard, Ideal, Pacific H0, Sampson, etc.) as part of what he carried. Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" the_plainsman@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > You were quicker while I was still looking up your photos! Can you or someone else confirm that George Stock sold his molds to Schrader? I think I read that somewhere and that Schrader then upgraded the kit with a better drive chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I also read somewhere that George Stock got the original mold from Ed Alexander, maybe in Carsten's Book. Anyone know more about that geneology?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Hi Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > The GG-1 being Cast Brass or Bronze, would be a Schrader or Geo. Stock and from the poor photos, it definitely looks like one of those, my guess probably Schader; they were more widely available, too. Jim H has photos of both in his Album here. If I'm not mistaken, I think Scrader acquired the molds for Stock and then upgraded the model? Or am I mistaken, all?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > On ebay this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one with original packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much that now I'm very interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit instructions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up, I always grab a copy for my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > ChrisBrannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > Lindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage $125.00 Free 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER $72.00 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > Brass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale Train 0 Bids $9.95 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > A 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > RARE 1st RUN VARNEY 0-4-0 LIL JOE STEAM LOCO - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING 2 Bids $2.50 Free shipping 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > VARNEY 4-6-2 SUPER PACIFIC STEAM LOCOMOTIVE - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING 4 Bids $22.75 Free shippin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > VARNEY 2-8-0 SUPER CONSOLIDATION STEAM LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT RUNS 4 Bids $22.75 Free shippin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > VINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS 1 Bid $9.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > Vintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi 0 Bids $1.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > VINTAGE HO MODEL TRAIN REPAIR & REPLACEMENT PARTS LOT 0 Bids $19.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > VINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX 0 Bids $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9504
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: George Stock Album
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  >  .........I have created a new photo album, George Stock's Locomotives 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and Cars.  The first photo is of a George Stock custom built, painted 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and hand lettered New York Central Niagara that was built for a 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Maryland modeler in the early 1950's and was sold by his estate on 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> eBay about three years ago. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> It is an open album that anyone may add photos of George Stock's 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> locomotives and cars and credit to their collection, etc.  One popular 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> commercial kit that saw widespread distribution was Stock's cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> brass/bronze scale test car.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have on file a few pictures of  Interurbans built by George Stock ... 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
they were auctioned off at eBay last year, i think by Dan Glasure, not 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
100% sure on this. Is it ok to put those pictures in your album? Dont 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
know if there is a copyright problem?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9505
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: what is it
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     A very quick response to the 
possibility of my switching the identity of the Stock and Schrader GG-1 
as I have 27 Emails here to answer. Two of the pictures I just sent are full side shoots of both. 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      The Stock GG-1 is first. Easily distinguished is G Stock 
GG-1 had cast metal (zamac ?) frames, side frames and brass wheels. It also had 
a cast metal detail you put on the top. As the picture I just sent  G Stock 
GG-1 has the keystone
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      On the other hand Schrader had all brass frame, side 
frames and drivers. While my Schrader GG-1 didn't come in a box it did have 
exploded drawings with it and parts list. One of the easy to recognize details 
is the grill / ventilator on the side at one end. Other side opposite end The 
Scrader picture shows no keystone 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Without getting deeper right now I doubt I switched the 
ID of the engines. I just posted a recent Email with pictures. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:22 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: what is it
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jay and Jim, Like you guys, I can't confirm this guy's GG-1 
  manufacturer, but from what I see Jim mentioning from his blown-up pics of 
  this guy's poor photos, I'd have to say it's Schrader. Never mind about any 
  "possible implications" of your GG-1 plans either Jay, or having to be leery 
  about them. I do note that Jim states, "There is a little casting shape on a 
  picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact 
  middle. Schrader does not have this as it is smooth. On the other hand Stock 
  has a little raised Keystone shape casting on his body in that 
  location."

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, I know you have a Schrader GG-1, or at least you've 
  identified your brass/bronze GG-1 as Schrader; how have you identified it (did 
  it come it the original box, for instance?)? I do notice though, that you have 
  both the Stock and the Schrader GG-1's and will take photos of them later. A 
  question in my mind is that I'm strongly suspecting you may have these two 
  engines mixed up with one another -- the reason for my question on how you 
  came to identify the Schrader.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Now getting back to needing to be leery 
  of Jay's Schrader GG-1 plans -- and my questioning on the I.D. of Jim's 
  Schrader GG-1 -- which, when noting the raised keystone shaped casting on the 
  body, "does not have this as it is smooth." 

                                                                                                                                                                                  My TWO mint in original 
  box Schrader GG-1 kits BOTH have this raised keystone casting on the body at 
  the location described, and the plans that came with these kits clearly show 
  this raised keystone as well. I don't know if George Stock's GG-1 had this, as 
  my Geo. Stock catalog does not show such detail in its photos (I do not have a 
  Stock GG-1). I am wondering though, (1) if your (Jim's) GG-1 without the 
  raised keystone casting is perhaps a George Stock as it doesn't match my 
  Schrader GG-1's. I really don't know if my two (both identical) Schrader 
  GG-1's are version 1's or version 2's, but if they're version 2's -- as Jay's 
  plans indicate this version having these raised keystones -- it wouldn't make 
  sense that Schrader version 1 would not have these raised keystones. These 
  raised keystones on this eBay model in question also have these raised 
  keystones, and is the reason why I feel it's a Schrader. If George Stock also 
  had raised keystones, then at least we can't rule this mystery engine out as a 
  Schrader, even if it turns out to be a Geo. Stock. BUT, then -- where does 
  that leave the smooth-sided body GG-1? Jim, I hope all goes well with your 
  tests today. Ciao, Ray Wetzel

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Jim 
  H., John H. Chris B. and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sorry could not reply last 
  night, back late from a wake of a friend of almost 30 years and member of our 
  community service club (Rotary), gone suddenly too soon (60 -- unforseen brain 
  hemmorage) and up eary now to get ready for funeral.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim, 
  those pantograph mounting "bumps" were what convinced me. Did not know of the 
  roof-top access hatch placement. I did see the cast on herald evidence, but 
  reasoned that this could have been an early, non-prototypical detail that 
  Schader could have easily removed from the mold sometime in production just as 
  I believe he added other details. But those "bumps" convinced me I was on the 
  right trail.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > John, although incandescent lighting can make 
  zamac castings appear a tarnished brass or bronze color, I was convinced early 
  on this was not a Penn Line or Famoco as both of them have recesses cast 
  between the side doors for the sand hatches; in addition Penn Line has cast on 
  "nibs" for mounting the pantographs that are raised from the surface of the 
  hoods; even if filed off, their remains would not be as prominant as "bumps" 
  or extensions on the unit in question. Lastly, the window and vent area 
  immediately next to the side windows has the "raw" look of a Schrader (or 
  Stock) unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim, after sleeping on it, I went downstairs a 
  few minutes ago and checked my Schrader assembly booklet and Jim, the drawing 
  shows the body casting with the raised Keystone on the side!!! So it must have 
  been there in at least early Schrader production!! ! I have five Schrader 
  factory photographs used for promotion, (found in a Louis Hertz file at a 
  "Lionel" show, and will try to locate those showing both Schrader models and a 
  factory show display. Will try to find them after the funeral and see if they 
  offer clues or confirmation.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jay W, John H, Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I was going to pass 
  trying to ID that GG-1 body but you have peaked my interest. Since the info 
  given can't be verified and the pictures poor figuring it out will be hard. 
  Add to that is it Bronze / Brass or what. Is it in fact HO. Could it be double 
  O like I think it was called Maxon. Could it be a casting done by some one 
  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I took some of the better pictures and tried to enlarge them. I 
  have a magnifying glass looking at these and I'm still not totally sure what 
  it is but leaning towards Schrader for these reasons and details. Schrader had 
  the little "bumps" as part of the casting where the pantographs go. George 
  Stock did not. Those rectangle shapes on the top of the body are centered and 
  only those appear centered on Schrader. Stocks were off center as there was a 
  little circle detail at one end. I was ready to say SCHRADER 90% until I saw 
  one little detail that is on Stock GG-bodies but not Schrader. There is a 
  little casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body 
  between the windows in the exact middle.Schrader does NOT have this as it is 
  smooth. On the other hand Stock has a little raised keystone shape cast on his 
  body in that location.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I have to drop it down to 75% thinking 
  Schrader. All that said still unsure.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Big help. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9506
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H,  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for that extensive comparative review.  So the next step is for one of us to get this beast for a formal "biopsy."  Being new here, has there been any protocol in aquiring auction items brought to the group's collective attention before closing?  In my book, in fairness, I believe Chris B. spotted it first and I am willing to let him have a fair shot at it unless he defers sometime before closing. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Jay, John H, Chris B, All, Everyone interested, Etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                I just got back from my appointment and haven't read any post since I left. I wanted to get these pictures and information to people " hot of the presses" and fresh in my mind.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>            The pictures will show the G Stock ( first 3) and the Schrader (last 3) GG-1s and close ups of certain details. These pictures were taken to try to ID a GG-1 on Ebay with an iffy description and very poor pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>            Before I list the things I have found in relationship to some details in the Ebay pictures I am more convinced the item is NOT Stock or Schrader but an unknown, or different version and maybe even a custom made GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>            First on to small details that can be seen in the pictures that appear on either the Stock or Schrader version but not all on both.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                Three small details appear on the bad Ebay pictures. Bumps in the casting around where the pantographs appear, roof design showing two CENTERED rectangles and the last detail on the side between the windows that looks like a raised keystone.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                 Lets go to the first three pictures of the Stock GG-1. Picture two shows a raised keystone detail that is part of the mold. However (picture 3) you can see the roof detail has two rectangles off center and a little round hole at one end. While not as clear in picture one there are no bumps  where the pantographs go. Only one of three details appear on the Stock GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                Pictures of Schrader GG-1. While not clear (picture 4) there are bumps in the casting for the places a pantograph goes. Picture 5 shows NO raised keystone detail. Picture 6 shows the centered panels on the roof. Schrader GG-1 has 2 of the three little details. The exploded view of Schrader GG-1 , version 1 & 2 , might show a detail but I think drawn in because these drawings also show a two tier detail on top of the roof and that's not right. Another detail I just realialized that is on the Schrader body (picture 4) is a place on both sides but opposite ends where a grill or ventilator goes. This does not appear in the pictures on Ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>             I wish the pictures on Ebay better showed the wheels and sideframes which might give more hints . Stock had cast metal (zamac) frame,sideframes with brass drivers, Schrader had all brass frame, sideframes and drivers..
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>              The 10 and 1/2 length mentioned by the seller, if true,  rules out any Penn Line (9 and 1/2") as does material.The Stock and Schrader GG-1's are suppose to be full scale HO size and my samples measure out to 10 and 1/2"
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>          To many facts being stated, to easy to screw up (mix,forget,switch).Based on everything I honestly don't think it is either Stock or Schrader. A detail just noticed on the poor Ebay pictures "looks like a rib in the casting going full length on the side of the body about the mid way point.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                  I DON"'T THINK EITHER STOCK OR SCHRADER.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9507
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: George Stock Album
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Good idea to always check for permission, most will grant it, or with credit given.  I for privacy reasons did not post the family name of the man who ordered the Niagara from George Stock, either, unless I receive permission from the heir. I had assisted in identifying other vintage models in that estate, including one obscure 40 year old British model locomotive that was only identified with the help of some accomdating modelers from across the pond!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  .........I have created a new photo album, George Stock's Locomotives 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > and Cars.  The first photo is of a George Stock custom built, painted 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > and hand lettered New York Central Niagara that was built for a 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Maryland modeler in the early 1950's and was sold by his estate on 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > eBay about three years ago. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > It is an open album that anyone may add photos of George Stock's 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > locomotives and cars and credit to their collection, etc.  One popular 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > commercial kit that saw widespread distribution was Stock's cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > brass/bronze scale test car.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have on file a few pictures of  Interurbans built by George Stock ... 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> they were auctioned off at eBay last year, i think by Dan Glasure, not 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 100% sure on this. Is it ok to put those pictures in your album? Dont 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> know if there is a copyright problem?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9508
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Ray W,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                               
I think you are right about G Stock doing his own thing. I do want to answer 
what someone else brought up since you mention Ed Alexander (as if there isn't 
enogh facts thrown around already)  In the course of my study of Georg 
Stock facts 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I did see mention that Ed Alexander was a frequent 
visitor to George Stock's shop.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:42 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock 
  or Schrader?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay, As for George Stock getting his original GG-1 mold from Ed Alexander, 
  as Jim pointed out, Stock was a master machinist -- he didn't need to buy 
  anything from another manufacturer. Besides, Stock started producing GG-1's in 
  1936 (he started his business in 1930) and I don't believe Ed Alexander was on 
  the scene yet at that time. George Stock's machinist expertise was such that 
  he custom built (from raw brass stock) his offerings of H0 locomotives for his 
  customers. One notation that should finalize whether Stock bought any of his 
  GG-1 components, body mold included, can be found as a description of his 
  "GG-1 LOCOMOTIVE KIT" in his 1947 catalog where he goes on to say (under this 
  heading), "The originator of the loco kit -- known to the HO fan since 1936! 
  This loco, patterned after the PRR class GG-1 electric loco, (4-6-6-4) is the 
  only twin motor model available. Chassis which comes 100% complete is die 
  cast, drive wheels are brass. Al l gears are installed. 2 Pittman DC60 motors 
  provide enormous power. Bronze cab is completely drilled. . . . "

                                                                                                                                                                                  As is 
  noted, he states he's the originator of these GG-1 kits. Under the remainder 
  of Stock's line of locomotives in his catalog, headed only as "CUSTOM 
  LOCOMOTIVES" , he says, "We can build special locomotives to your order. 
  All locos are made of brass, with infinite care laid to detail and 
  workmanship. We have an established reputation for work of this type and we 
  are the only HO firm in the USA that offers this service. . . . " Under this, 
  he lists an offering of some 20 different wheel-arrangement locomotives 
  (w/tenders) which states he will make for any Road configuration -- from 
  0-4-0's to articulateds and everything in between. This is his line of loco's, 
  the customer chooses which loco he wants Stock to build for him. By this, it 
  can be seen that he made everything he sold as his own brand. At this same 
  time, Stock also offered locomotive and rolling stock from 18 other 
  manufacturers (Mantua, Varney, A-C, Picard, Ideal, Pacific H0, Samps on, etc.) 
  as part of what he carried. Ray W.

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim 
  H.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > You were quicker while I was still looking up your photos! 
  Can you or someone else confirm that George Stock sold his molds to Schrader? 
  I think I read that somewhere and that Schrader then upgraded the kit with a 
  better drive chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I also read somewhere that George Stock 
  got the original mold from Ed Alexander, maybe in Carsten's Book. Anyone know 
  more about that geneology?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  Hi Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > The GG-1 being Cast Brass or Bronze, 
  would be a Schrader or Geo. Stock and from the poor photos, it definitely 
  looks like one of those, my guess probably Schader; they were more widely 
  available, too. Jim H has photos of both in his Album here. If I'm not 
  mistaken, I think Scrader acquired the molds for Stock and then upgraded the 
  model? Or am I mistaken, all?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
  On ebay this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one with 
  original packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much that now 
  I'm very interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. Many of these 
  listings had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit 
  instructions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > I'm not bidding on any of 
  these, too many hobbytown and other diecast diesels on the bench already, 
  but...whenever listings with good photos of vintage engines I'm not familiar 
  with show up, I always grab a copy for my home picture files. I'm not likely 
  to ever own any vintage steam, but I can still admire the craftsmanship in the 
  castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > ChrisBrannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > > Lindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage $125.00 Free 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 
  PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER $72.00 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Brass/Bronze 
  Locomotive HO Scale Train 0 Bids $9.95 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > A 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > RARE 1st RUN VARNEY 
  0-4-0 LIL JOE STEAM LOCO - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN 
  LISTING - FREE SHIPPING 2 Bids $2.50 Free shipping 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > VARNEY 4-6-2 SUPER PACIFIC 
  STEAM LOCOMOTIVE - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE 
  POSTED IN LISTING 4 Bids $22.75 Free shippin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > VARNEY 2-8-0 SUPER CONSOLIDATION STEAM 
  LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - 
  IT RUNS 4 Bids $22.75 Free shippin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
  
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9509
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: what is it
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                
A reply about Schrader versions  I and II. The blown up drawings on 
HOseeker were sent to him by me. Again they are "drawings"  As you will see 
both show the the detail on the top of the roof as being two tiered or layered 
which is not on the real engine. The main difference of Version I and II. Look 
at where the gear on the end of the motor shaft sits. Version I went right to a 
second gear in the driver frame. The second version has a third little gear 
added between these two gears.  This is the main difference between the two 
Schrader versions. I know of no changes in the bodies partly due to the small 
amount made.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
More to 
digest                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:22 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: what is it
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jay and Jim, Like you guys, I can't confirm this guy's GG-1 
  manufacturer, but from what I see Jim mentioning from his blown-up pics of 
  this guy's poor photos, I'd have to say it's Schrader. Never mind about any 
  "possible implications" of your GG-1 plans either Jay, or having to be leery 
  about them. I do note that Jim states, "There is a little casting shape on a 
  picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact 
  middle. Schrader does not have this as it is smooth. On the other hand Stock 
  has a little raised Keystone shape casting on his body in that 
  location."

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, I know you have a Schrader GG-1, or at least you've 
  identified your brass/bronze GG-1 as Schrader; how have you identified it (did 
  it come it the original box, for instance?)? I do notice though, that you have 
  both the Stock and the Schrader GG-1's and will take photos of them later. A 
  question in my mind is that I'm strongly suspecting you may have these two 
  engines mixed up with one another -- the reason for my question on how you 
  came to identify the Schrader.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Now getting back to needing to be leery 
  of Jay's Schrader GG-1 plans -- and my questioning on the I.D. of Jim's 
  Schrader GG-1 -- which, when noting the raised keystone shaped casting on the 
  body, "does not have this as it is smooth." 

                                                                                                                                                                                  My TWO mint in original 
  box Schrader GG-1 kits BOTH have this raised keystone casting on the body at 
  the location described, and the plans that came with these kits clearly show 
  this raised keystone as well. I don't know if George Stock's GG-1 had this, as 
  my Geo. Stock catalog does not show such detail in its photos (I do not have a 
  Stock GG-1). I am wondering though, (1) if your (Jim's) GG-1 without the 
  raised keystone casting is perhaps a George Stock as it doesn't match my 
  Schrader GG-1's. I really don't know if my two (both identical) Schrader 
  GG-1's are version 1's or version 2's, but if they're version 2's -- as Jay's 
  plans indicate this version having these raised keystones -- it wouldn't make 
  sense that Schrader version 1 would not have these raised keystones. These 
  raised keystones on this eBay model in question also have these raised 
  keystones, and is the reason why I feel it's a Schrader. If George Stock also 
  had raised keystones, then at least we can't rule this mystery engine out as a 
  Schrader, even if it turns out to be a Geo. Stock. BUT, then -- where does 
  that leave the smooth-sided body GG-1? Jim, I hope all goes well with your 
  tests today. Ciao, Ray Wetzel

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Jim 
  H., John H. Chris B. and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sorry could not reply last 
  night, back late from a wake of a friend of almost 30 years and member of our 
  community service club (Rotary), gone suddenly too soon (60 -- unforseen brain 
  hemmorage) and up eary now to get ready for funeral.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim, 
  those pantograph mounting "bumps" were what convinced me. Did not know of the 
  roof-top access hatch placement. I did see the cast on herald evidence, but 
  reasoned that this could have been an early, non-prototypical detail that 
  Schader could have easily removed from the mold sometime in production just as 
  I believe he added other details. But those "bumps" convinced me I was on the 
  right trail.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > John, although incandescent lighting can make 
  zamac castings appear a tarnished brass or bronze color, I was convinced early 
  on this was not a Penn Line or Famoco as both of them have recesses cast 
  between the side doors for the sand hatches; in addition Penn Line has cast on 
  "nibs" for mounting the pantographs that are raised from the surface of the 
  hoods; even if filed off, their remains would not be as prominant as "bumps" 
  or extensions on the unit in question. Lastly, the window and vent area 
  immediately next to the side windows has the "raw" look of a Schrader (or 
  Stock) unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim, after sleeping on it, I went downstairs a 
  few minutes ago and checked my Schrader assembly booklet and Jim, the drawing 
  shows the body casting with the raised Keystone on the side!!! So it must have 
  been there in at least early Schrader production!! ! I have five Schrader 
  factory photographs used for promotion, (found in a Louis Hertz file at a 
  "Lionel" show, and will try to locate those showing both Schrader models and a 
  factory show display. Will try to find them after the funeral and see if they 
  offer clues or confirmation.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jay W, John H, Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I was going to pass 
  trying to ID that GG-1 body but you have peaked my interest. Since the info 
  given can't be verified and the pictures poor figuring it out will be hard. 
  Add to that is it Bronze / Brass or what. Is it in fact HO. Could it be double 
  O like I think it was called Maxon. Could it be a casting done by some one 
  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I took some of the better pictures and tried to enlarge them. I 
  have a magnifying glass looking at these and I'm still not totally sure what 
  it is but leaning towards Schrader for these reasons and details. Schrader had 
  the little "bumps" as part of the casting where the pantographs go. George 
  Stock did not. Those rectangle shapes on the top of the body are centered and 
  only those appear centered on Schrader. Stocks were off center as there was a 
  little circle detail at one end. I was ready to say SCHRADER 90% until I saw 
  one little detail that is on Stock GG-bodies but not Schrader. There is a 
  little casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body 
  between the windows in the exact middle.Schrader does NOT have this as it is 
  smooth. On the other hand Stock has a little raised keystone shape cast on his 
  body in that location.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I have to drop it down to 75% thinking 
  Schrader. All that said still unsure.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Big help. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9510
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: PL Southern Pacific picture
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                  

 

 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 This is a picture of a Penn Line  4-4-2 factory lettered for the 
Southern Pacific. This is not my engine. The man having it also has a PL Mikado 
mint in a box lettered for the SP also.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Lennard   This is not my engine or 
picture. Don't put in my album.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9511
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Let Chris B bid first if he 
wants. Let anyone bid if they want. My hope, if anyone wins it, is that good 
pictures be shared to ID. I don't want to bid unless NO one does.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:20 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Stock/Schrader 
  GG-1 close ups
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H, 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for that extensive comparative review. So the next 
  step is for one of us to get this beast for a formal "biopsy." Being new here, 
  has there been any protocol in aquiring auction items brought to the group's 
  collective attention before closing? In my book, in fairness, I believe Chris 
  B. spotted it first and I am willing to let him have a fair shot at it unless 
  he defers sometime before closing. 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay W. 

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Jay, John H, 
  Chris B, All, Everyone interested, Etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I just got back from 
  my appointment and haven't read any post since I left. I wanted to get these 
  pictures and information to people " hot of the presses" and fresh in my 
  mind.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > The pictures will show the G Stock ( first 3) and the Schrader 
  (last 3) GG-1s and close ups of certain details. These pictures were taken to 
  try to ID a GG-1 on Ebay with an iffy description and very poor 
  pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Before I list the things I have found in relationship to 
  some details in the Ebay pictures I am more convinced the item is NOT Stock or 
  Schrader but an unknown, or different version and maybe even a custom made 
  GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > First on to small details that can be seen in the pictures that 
  appear on either the Stock or Schrader version but not all on both.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  Three small details appear on the bad Ebay pictures. Bumps in the casting 
  around where the pantographs appear, roof design showing two CENTERED 
  rectangles and the last detail on the side between the windows that looks like 
  a raised keystone.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Lets go to the first three pictures of the Stock 
  GG-1. Picture two shows a raised keystone detail that is part of the mold. 
  However (picture 3) you can see the roof detail has two rectangles off center 
  and a little round hole at one end. While not as clear in picture one there 
  are no bumps where the pantographs go. Only one of three details appear on the 
  Stock GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Pictures of Schrader GG-1. While not clear (picture 4) 
  there are bumps in the casting for the places a pantograph goes. Picture 5 
  shows NO raised keystone detail. Picture 6 shows the centered panels on the 
  roof. Schrader GG-1 has 2 of the three little details. The exploded view of 
  Schrader GG-1 , version 1 & 2 , might show a detail but I think drawn in 
  because these drawings also show a two tier detail on top of the roof and 
  that's not right. Another detail I just realialized that is on the Schrader 
  body (picture 4) is a place on both sides but opposite ends where a grill or 
  ventilator goes. This does not appear in the pictures on Ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I wish 
  the pictures on Ebay better showed the wheels and sideframes which might give 
  more hints . Stock had cast metal (zamac) frame,sideframes with brass drivers, 
  Schrader had all brass frame, sideframes and drivers..
                                                                                                                                                                                  > The 10 and 1/2 
  length mentioned by the seller, if true, rules out any Penn Line (9 and 1/2") 
  as does material.The Stock and Schrader GG-1's are suppose to be full scale HO 
  size and my samples measure out to 10 and 1/2"
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To many facts being 
  stated, to easy to screw up (mix,forget, switch).Based on everything I 
  honestly don't think it is either Stock or Schrader. A detail just noticed on 
  the poor Ebay pictures "looks like a rib in the casting going full length on 
  the side of the body about the mid way point.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I DON"'T THINK EITHER 
  STOCK OR SCHRADER.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9512
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: what is it
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                     Hi Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                              I 
wanted to add another reason why I doubt I have mixed up the 
Stock And Schrader GG-1 ID's  I just had a good dinner time to relax and of 
course that coffee. This will answer another question someone posed 
too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         I'm sure you 
are young enough to remember  Loco Builders Photos that appeared in RMC. If 
you go to RMC September 1962 issue  Loco Builders Photos-3 the Schrader 
GG-1 is pictured and previewed. It gives a complete description of the 
engine  It says "WERE ALL BRASS". Superstructure was shell mold brass 
casting. Frames were milled bars. Truck frames, pilots, steps, horns, etc. were 
lost wax castings. The picture will back me up on details I put forth.  
Excluding the added antenna you can see the dimples for the pantographs, the 
double "panels" (someone please tell me what they were for) centered in the 
middle of the roof,  the odd shaped grill/ventilator on the side at one end 
and no cast keystone on the body of this engine, just a huge Pennsylvania 
decal.   This is exactly like my Schrader engine that I sent 
pictures of and wrote about.   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          There is 
a statement near the end that is useful that says and should ask a question 
others asked.    Loco BASED on pre war George Stock but 
COMPLETELY retooled. The Stock loco used cast type metal main frames and parts 
just like my George Stock GG-1 that I sent pictures of. While the possibility of 
some Schrader GG-1s having the cast keystone on you can't change all the other 
details that separate a Schrader GG-1 from a Stock. Based on this I'm sure I 
didn't switch the ID's.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:22 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: what is it
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jay and Jim, Like you guys, I can't confirm this guy's GG-1 
  manufacturer, but from what I see Jim mentioning from his blown-up pics of 
  this guy's poor photos, I'd have to say it's Schrader. Never mind about any 
  "possible implications" of your GG-1 plans either Jay, or having to be leery 
  about them. I do note that Jim states, "There is a little casting shape on a 
  picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact 
  middle. Schrader does not have this as it is smooth. On the other hand Stock 
  has a little raised Keystone shape casting on his body in that 
  location."

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, I know you have a Schrader GG-1, or at least you've 
  identified your brass/bronze GG-1 as Schrader; how have you identified it (did 
  it come it the original box, for instance?)? I do notice though, that you have 
  both the Stock and the Schrader GG-1's and will take photos of them later. A 
  question in my mind is that I'm strongly suspecting you may have these two 
  engines mixed up with one another -- the reason for my question on how you 
  came to identify the Schrader.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Now getting back to needing to be leery 
  of Jay's Schrader GG-1 plans -- and my questioning on the I.D. of Jim's 
  Schrader GG-1 -- which, when noting the raised keystone shaped casting on the 
  body, "does not have this as it is smooth." 

                                                                                                                                                                                  My TWO mint in original 
  box Schrader GG-1 kits BOTH have this raised keystone casting on the body at 
  the location described, and the plans that came with these kits clearly show 
  this raised keystone as well. I don't know if George Stock's GG-1 had this, as 
  my Geo. Stock catalog does not show such detail in its photos (I do not have a 
  Stock GG-1). I am wondering though, (1) if your (Jim's) GG-1 without the 
  raised keystone casting is perhaps a George Stock as it doesn't match my 
  Schrader GG-1's. I really don't know if my two (both identical) Schrader 
  GG-1's are version 1's or version 2's, but if they're version 2's -- as Jay's 
  plans indicate this version having these raised keystones -- it wouldn't make 
  sense that Schrader version 1 would not have these raised keystones. These 
  raised keystones on this eBay model in question also have these raised 
  keystones, and is the reason why I feel it's a Schrader. If George Stock also 
  had raised keystones, then at least we can't rule this mystery engine out as a 
  Schrader, even if it turns out to be a Geo. Stock. BUT, then -- where does 
  that leave the smooth-sided body GG-1? Jim, I hope all goes well with your 
  tests today. Ciao, Ray Wetzel

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Jim 
  H., John H. Chris B. and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sorry could not reply last 
  night, back late from a wake of a friend of almost 30 years and member of our 
  community service club (Rotary), gone suddenly too soon (60 -- unforseen brain 
  hemmorage) and up eary now to get ready for funeral.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim, 
  those pantograph mounting "bumps" were what convinced me. Did not know of the 
  roof-top access hatch placement. I did see the cast on herald evidence, but 
  reasoned that this could have been an early, non-prototypical detail that 
  Schader could have easily removed from the mold sometime in production just as 
  I believe he added other details. But those "bumps" convinced me I was on the 
  right trail.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > John, although incandescent lighting can make 
  zamac castings appear a tarnished brass or bronze color, I was convinced early 
  on this was not a Penn Line or Famoco as both of them have recesses cast 
  between the side doors for the sand hatches; in addition Penn Line has cast on 
  "nibs" for mounting the pantographs that are raised from the surface of the 
  hoods; even if filed off, their remains would not be as prominant as "bumps" 
  or extensions on the unit in question. Lastly, the window and vent area 
  immediately next to the side windows has the "raw" look of a Schrader (or 
  Stock) unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim, after sleeping on it, I went downstairs a 
  few minutes ago and checked my Schrader assembly booklet and Jim, the drawing 
  shows the body casting with the raised Keystone on the side!!! So it must have 
  been there in at least early Schrader production!! ! I have five Schrader 
  factory photographs used for promotion, (found in a Louis Hertz file at a 
  "Lionel" show, and will try to locate those showing both Schrader models and a 
  factory show display. Will try to find them after the funeral and see if they 
  offer clues or confirmation.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jay W, John H, Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I was going to pass 
  trying to ID that GG-1 body but you have peaked my interest. Since the info 
  given can't be verified and the pictures poor figuring it out will be hard. 
  Add to that is it Bronze / Brass or what. Is it in fact HO. Could it be double 
  O like I think it was called Maxon. Could it be a casting done by some one 
  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I took some of the better pictures and tried to enlarge them. I 
  have a magnifying glass looking at these and I'm still not totally sure what 
  it is but leaning towards Schrader for these reasons and details. Schrader had 
  the little "bumps" as part of the casting where the pantographs go. George 
  Stock did not. Those rectangle shapes on the top of the body are centered and 
  only those appear centered on Schrader. Stocks were off center as there was a 
  little circle detail at one end. I was ready to say SCHRADER 90% until I saw 
  one little detail that is on Stock GG-bodies but not Schrader. There is a 
  little casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body 
  between the windows in the exact middle.Schrader does NOT have this as it is 
  smooth. On the other hand Stock has a little raised keystone shape cast on his 
  body in that location.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I have to drop it down to 75% thinking 
  Schrader. All that said still unsure.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Big help. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9513
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Vintage HO website.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Mike S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have found that "Tony's" website useful for HO manufactured after the general vintage years covered by our group here.  There is a little overlap in years and models, but interesting for tracing, for example, the afterlife of the Varney plastic freight cars, some of which were first made in 1950 through the changeover to Life Like packaging and the Penn Line, later Varney passenger cars which were produced under the L-L name as well.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Then too, there are some unusual locomotives, like the AHM/Rivarossi Krauss Maffei introduced in the early to mid 1960's that I am willing to bet are in some of our group's collections as well! And HOSeeker.org has some of the parts diagrams and catlogs for some of these later models as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I may have missed other folks mentioning it, but there is a very good 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> vintage HO website that has lots of good information. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> <http://www.ho-scaletrains.net/>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sorry if everyone else knows about it, but I just found it by accident.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9514
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay,  thanks for the protocol and consideration, but bid away! I did say I wasn't bidding on any of the items in my first email that posted these listings. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I do still have some items on my wish list I would happily compete for, (e.g., I still need 1 more NJ INTL 44T shell) 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  but I model the Washington and Old Dominion, and they never had anything remotely as elegant or impressivea as GG1's.  The only PRR motive power the W&OD ever ran was the failed experimental PRR Budd Micheline stainless streamliner. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm very much impressed with the level of scolarship and accurate documented research already shared on vintage cast GG1s, and I do hope someone in the group gets it and shares the closeup details that would help the GGurus positively identify it
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  ==========
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2009 11:22:55 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: items on ebay

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  On ebay this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one with original packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much that now I'm very interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit instructions.  

                                                                                                                                                                                   I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up,  I always grab a copy for my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 4:20:51 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H, 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for that extensive comparative review. So the next step is for one of us to get this beast for a formal "biopsy." Being new here, has there been any protocol in aquiring auction items brought to the group's collective attention before closing? In my book, in fairness, I believe Chris B. spotted it first and I am willing to let him have a fair shot at it unless he defers sometime before closing. 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay W. 

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Jay, John H, Chris B, All, Everyone interested, Etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I just got back from my appointment and haven't read any post since I left. I wanted to get these pictures and information to people " hot of the presses" and fresh in my mind.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > The pictures will show the G Stock ( first 3)
 and the Schrader (last 3) GG-1s and close ups of certain details. These pictures were taken to try to ID a GG-1 on Ebay with an iffy description and very poor pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Before I list the things I have found in relationship to some details in the Ebay pictures I am more convinced the item is NOT Stock or Schrader but an unknown, or different version and maybe even a custom made GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > First on to small details that can be seen in the pictures that appear on either the Stock or Schrader version but not all on both.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Three small details appear on the bad Ebay pictures. Bumps in the casting around where the pantographs appear, roof design showing two CENTERED rectangles and the last detail on the side between the windows that looks like a raised keystone.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Lets go to the first three pictures of the Stock GG-1. Picture two shows a raised keystone detail that is part of the mold. However (picture 3) you can see the roof detail has
 two rectangles off center and a little round hole at one end. While not as clear in picture one there are no bumps where the pantographs go. Only one of three details appear on the Stock GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Pictures of Schrader GG-1. While not clear (picture 4) there are bumps in the casting for the places a pantograph goes. Picture 5 shows NO raised keystone detail. Picture 6 shows the centered panels on the roof. Schrader GG-1 has 2 of the three little details. The exploded view of Schrader GG-1 , version 1 & 2 , might show a detail but I think drawn in because these drawings also show a two tier detail on top of the roof and that's not right. Another detail I just realialized that is on the Schrader body (picture 4) is a place on both sides but opposite ends where a grill or ventilator goes. This does not appear in the pictures on Ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I wish the pictures on Ebay better showed the wheels and sideframes which might give more hints . Stock had
 cast metal (zamac) frame,sideframes with brass drivers, Schrader had all brass frame, sideframes and drivers..
                                                                                                                                                                                  > The 10 and 1/2 length mentioned by the seller, if true, rules out any Penn Line (9 and 1/2") as does material.The Stock and Schrader GG-1's are suppose to be full scale HO size and my samples measure out to 10 and 1/2"
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To many facts being stated, to easy to screw up (mix,forget, switch).Based on everything I honestly don't think it is either Stock or Schrader. A detail just noticed on the poor Ebay pictures "looks like a rib in the casting going full length on the side of the body about the mid way point.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I DON"'T THINK EITHER STOCK OR SCHRADER.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  >


                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9515
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jay W., Just wanted to mention that I've had my George Stock catalog for some time, so that wasn't me who you lost out to; glad to share the info though.  Yes, Stock does seem emphatic about being the originator of GG-1 kits.  On Ed Alexander, I see Jim mentions that Alexander was a frequent visitor to Stock's shop, which I wasn't aware of.  Still, it doesn't appear as if Stock needed to purchase anything to develop anything that he sold.  Glad to see you've opened a photo album of Stock's loco's and cars.  I'll have to check it out, first chance.  Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Ray W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I lost out on an eBay auction of a George Stock catalog in the past year
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> or so!  If that was you who outbid me, glad as its information is being
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> shared.  In the quote provided, Mr. Stock seems very emphatic about
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> being the originator of the complete powered kit.  I will try to pin
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> down where I read of the connection with Ed Alexander's pioneering HO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> work in the early to mid 1930's; that writer may not have been accurate.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> At any rate George Stock's excellent work is a fact, and as evidence, I
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> have created a new photo album, George Stock's Locomotives and Cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The first photo is of a George Stock custom built, painted and hand
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> lettered New York Central Niagara that was built for a Maryland modeler
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> in the early 1950's and was sold by his estate on eBay about three years
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> It is an open album that anyone may add photos of George Stock's
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> locomotives and cars and credit to their collection, etc.  One popular
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> commercial kit that saw widespread distribution was Stock's cast
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> brass/bronze scale test car.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Jay, As for George Stock getting his original GG-1 mold from Ed
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Alexander, as Jim pointed out, Stock was a master machinist -- he didn't
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> need to buy anything from another manufacturer. Besides, Stock started
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> producing GG-1's in 1936 (he started his business in 1930) and I don't
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> believe Ed Alexander was on the scene yet at that time. George Stock's
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> machinist expertise was such that he custom built (from raw brass stock)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> his offerings of H0 locomotives for his customers. One notation that
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> should finalize whether Stock bought any of his GG-1 components, body
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> mold included, can be found as a description of his "GG-1 LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> KIT" in his 1947 catalog where he goes on to say (under this heading),
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> "The originator of the loco kit -- known to the HO fan since 1936! This
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> loco, patterned after the PRR class GG-1 electric loco, (4-6-6-4) is the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> only twin motor model available. Chassis which comes 100% complete is
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> die cast, drive wheels are brass. All gears are installed. 2 Pittman
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> DC60 motors provide enormous power. Bronze cab is completely drilled. .
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> . . "
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > As is noted, he states he's the originator of these GG-1 kits. Under
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the remainder of Stock's line of locomotives in his catalog, headed only
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> as "CUSTOM LOCOMOTIVES", he says, "We can build special locomotives to
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> your order. All locos are made of brass, with infinite care laid to
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> detail and workmanship. We have an established reputation for work of
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> this type and we are the only HO firm in the USA that offers this
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> service. . . . " Under this, he lists an offering of some 20 different
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> wheel-arrangement locomotives (w/tenders) which states he will make for
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> any Road configuration -- from 0-4-0's to articulateds and everything in
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> between. This is his line of loco's, the customer chooses which loco he
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> wants Stock to build for him. By this, it can be seen that he made
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> everything he sold as his own brand. At this same time, Stock also
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> offered locomotive and rolling stock from 18 other manufacturers
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> (Mantua, Varney, A-C, Picard, Ideal, Pacific H0, Sampson, etc.) as part
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> of what he carried. Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" the_plainsman@
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > You were quicker while I was still looking up your photos! Can you
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> or someone else confirm that George Stock sold his molds to Schrader? I
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> think I read that somewhere and that Schrader then upgraded the kit with
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> a better drive chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > I also read somewhere that George Stock got the original mold from
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Ed Alexander, maybe in Carsten's Book. Anyone know more about that
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> geneology?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > Hi Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > The GG-1 being Cast Brass or Bronze, would be a Schrader or Geo.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Stock and from the poor photos, it definitely looks like one of those,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> my guess probably Schader; they were more widely available, too. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> has photos of both in his Album here. If I'm not mistaken, I think
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Scrader acquired the molds for Stock and then upgraded the model? Or am
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I mistaken, all?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > > On ebay this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> one with original packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> much that now I'm very interested in a much wider range of vintage HO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> engines. Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of the engine,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> packaging, or kit instructions.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > > I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> diecast diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> photos of vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up, I always grab a
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> copy for my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> steam, but I can still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> valve gear this way.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > > ChrisBrannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > > Lindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage $125.00 Free
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > > HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER $72.00
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > > Brass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale Train 0 Bids $9.95
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > > A
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > > RARE 1st RUN VARNEY 0-4-0 LIL JOE STEAM LOCO - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > > - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING 2 Bids $2.50
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Free shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > > VARNEY 4-6-2 SUPER PACIFIC STEAM LOCOMOTIVE - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > > HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING 4 Bids $22.75
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Free shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > > VARNEY 2-8-0 SUPER CONSOLIDATION STEAM LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > > FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT RUNS 4 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> $22.75 Free shippin
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > > VINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS 1 Bid $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > > Vintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi 0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> $1.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > > VINTAGE HO MODEL TRAIN REPAIR & REPLACEMENT PARTS LOT 0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> $19.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > > VINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX 0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9516
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: what is it
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim,  Thanks for clarifying.  I remember when you got that Stock GG-1 back last October 31.  I suggested the possibility of a switch in engines only as you mention your Schrader GG-1 as having no raised cast keystone, which puzzles me immensely, since both of mine have this feature.  If your two GG-1's were not switched, which I'm glad to see, this still leaves this seemingly odd anomaly of your Schrader GG-1 not having this raised keystone, which I can't understand.  Hopefully, we'll find an answer to this difference.  Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>    A very quick response to the possibility of my switching the identity of the Stock and Schrader GG-1 as I have 27 Emails here to answer. Two of the pictures I just sent are full side shoots of both. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     The Stock GG-1 is first. Easily distinguished is G Stock GG-1 had cast metal (zamac ?) frames, side frames and brass wheels. It also had a cast metal detail you put on the top. As the picture I just sent  G Stock GG-1 has the keystone
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     On the other hand Schrader had all brass frame, side frames and drivers. While my Schrader GG-1 didn't come in a box it did have exploded drawings with it and parts list. One of the easy to recognize details is the grill / ventilator on the side at one end. Other side opposite end The Scrader picture shows no keystone 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Without getting deeper right now I doubt I switched the ID of the engines. I just posted a recent Email with pictures. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                                Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:22 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: what is it
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Hi Jay and Jim, Like you guys, I can't confirm this guy's GG-1 manufacturer, but from what I see Jim mentioning from his blown-up pics of this guy's poor photos, I'd have to say it's Schrader. Never mind about any "possible implications" of your GG-1 plans either Jay, or having to be leery about them. I do note that Jim states, "There is a little casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact middle. Schrader does not have this as it is smooth. On the other hand Stock has a little raised Keystone shape casting on his body in that location."
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Jim, I know you have a Schrader GG-1, or at least you've identified your brass/bronze GG-1 as Schrader; how have you identified it (did it come it the original box, for instance?)? I do notice though, that you have both the Stock and the Schrader GG-1's and will take photos of them later. A question in my mind is that I'm strongly suspecting you may have these two engines mixed up with one another -- the reason for my question on how you came to identify the Schrader.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Now getting back to needing to be leery of Jay's Schrader GG-1 plans -- and my questioning on the I.D. of Jim's Schrader GG-1 -- which, when noting the raised keystone shaped casting on the body, "does not have this as it is smooth." 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   My TWO mint in original box Schrader GG-1 kits BOTH have this raised keystone casting on the body at the location described, and the plans that came with these kits clearly show this raised keystone as well. I don't know if George Stock's GG-1 had this, as my Geo. Stock catalog does not show such detail in its photos (I do not have a Stock GG-1). I am wondering though, (1) if your (Jim's) GG-1 without the raised keystone casting is perhaps a George Stock as it doesn't match my Schrader GG-1's. I really don't know if my two (both identical) Schrader GG-1's are version 1's or version 2's, but if they're version 2's -- as Jay's plans indicate this version having these raised keystones -- it wouldn't make sense that Schrader version 1 would not have these raised keystones. These raised keystones on this eBay model in question also have these raised keystones, and is the reason why I feel it's a Schrader. If George Stock also had raised keystones, then at least we can't rule this mystery engine out as a Schrader, even if it turns out to be a Geo. Stock. BUT, then -- where does that leave the smooth-sided body GG-1? Jim, I hope all goes well with your tests today. Ciao, Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Hi Jim H., John H. Chris B. and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Sorry could not reply last night, back late from a wake of a friend of almost 30 years and member of our community service club (Rotary), gone suddenly too soon (60 -- unforseen brain hemmorage) and up eary now to get ready for funeral.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jim, those pantograph mounting "bumps" were what convinced me. Did not know of the roof-top access hatch placement. I did see the cast on herald evidence, but reasoned that this could have been an early, non-prototypical detail that Schader could have easily removed from the mold sometime in production just as I believe he added other details. But those "bumps" convinced me I was on the right trail.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > John, although incandescent lighting can make zamac castings appear a tarnished brass or bronze color, I was convinced early on this was not a Penn Line or Famoco as both of them have recesses cast between the side doors for the sand hatches; in addition Penn Line has cast on "nibs" for mounting the pantographs that are raised from the surface of the hoods; even if filed off, their remains would not be as prominant as "bumps" or extensions on the unit in question. Lastly, the window and vent area immediately next to the side windows has the "raw" look of a Schrader (or Stock) unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jim, after sleeping on it, I went downstairs a few minutes ago and checked my Schrader assembly booklet and Jim, the drawing shows the body casting with the raised Keystone on the side!!! So it must have been there in at least early Schrader production!!! I have five Schrader factory photographs used for promotion, (found in a Louis Hertz file at a "Lionel" show, and will try to locate those showing both Schrader models and a factory show display. Will try to find them after the funeral and see if they offer clues or confirmation.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > Jay W, John H, Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > I was going to pass trying to ID that GG-1 body but you have peaked my interest. Since the info given can't be verified and the pictures poor figuring it out will be hard. Add to that is it Bronze / Brass or what. Is it in fact HO. Could it be double O like I think it was called Maxon. Could it be a casting done by some one ?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > I took some of the better pictures and tried to enlarge them. I have a magnifying glass looking at these and I'm still not totally sure what it is but leaning towards Schrader for these reasons and details. Schrader had the little "bumps" as part of the casting where the pantographs go. George Stock did not. Those rectangle shapes on the top of the body are centered and only those appear centered on Schrader. Stocks were off center as there was a little circle detail at one end. I was ready to say SCHRADER 90% until I saw one little detail that is on Stock GG-bodies but not Schrader. There is a little casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact middle.Schrader does NOT have this as it is smooth. On the other hand Stock has a little raised keystone shape cast on his body in that location.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > I have to drop it down to 75% thinking Schrader. All that said still unsure.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > Big help. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9517
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay, Jim, Don't let me stand in anyone's way in placing a bid on this piece.  I won't bid on it for various reasons, but it could be informative if someone were to get it, provided they also wished to acquire it anyway and not go to any great expense just for the group.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Jim H,  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Thanks for that extensive comparative review.  So the next step is for one of us to get this beast for a formal "biopsy."  Being new here, has there been any protocol in aquiring auction items brought to the group's collective attention before closing?  In my book, in fairness, I believe Chris B. spotted it first and I am willing to let him have a fair shot at it unless he defers sometime before closing. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Hi Jay, John H, Chris B, All, Everyone interested, Etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >                I just got back from my appointment and haven't read any post since I left. I wanted to get these pictures and information to people " hot of the presses" and fresh in my mind.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >            The pictures will show the G Stock ( first 3) and the Schrader (last 3) GG-1s and close ups of certain details. These pictures were taken to try to ID a GG-1 on Ebay with an iffy description and very poor pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >            Before I list the things I have found in relationship to some details in the Ebay pictures I am more convinced the item is NOT Stock or Schrader but an unknown, or different version and maybe even a custom made GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >            First on to small details that can be seen in the pictures that appear on either the Stock or Schrader version but not all on both.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >                Three small details appear on the bad Ebay pictures. Bumps in the casting around where the pantographs appear, roof design showing two CENTERED rectangles and the last detail on the side between the windows that looks like a raised keystone.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >                 Lets go to the first three pictures of the Stock GG-1. Picture two shows a raised keystone detail that is part of the mold. However (picture 3) you can see the roof detail has two rectangles off center and a little round hole at one end. While not as clear in picture one there are no bumps  where the pantographs go. Only one of three details appear on the Stock GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >                Pictures of Schrader GG-1. While not clear (picture 4) there are bumps in the casting for the places a pantograph goes. Picture 5 shows NO raised keystone detail. Picture 6 shows the centered panels on the roof. Schrader GG-1 has 2 of the three little details. The exploded view of Schrader GG-1 , version 1 & 2 , might show a detail but I think drawn in because these drawings also show a two tier detail on top of the roof and that's not right. Another detail I just realialized that is on the Schrader body (picture 4) is a place on both sides but opposite ends where a grill or ventilator goes. This does not appear in the pictures on Ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >             I wish the pictures on Ebay better showed the wheels and sideframes which might give more hints . Stock had cast metal (zamac) frame,sideframes with brass drivers, Schrader had all brass frame, sideframes and drivers..
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >              The 10 and 1/2 length mentioned by the seller, if true,  rules out any Penn Line (9 and 1/2") as does material.The Stock and Schrader GG-1's are suppose to be full scale HO size and my samples measure out to 10 and 1/2"
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >          To many facts being stated, to easy to screw up (mix,forget,switch).Based on everything I honestly don't think it is either Stock or Schrader. A detail just noticed on the poor Ebay pictures "looks like a rib in the casting going full length on the side of the body about the mid way point.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >                  I DON"'T THINK EITHER STOCK OR SCHRADER.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >                                                                          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9518
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, As I said to Jay, I wasn't aware that Ed Alexander was on the scene this early (early to mid 1930's) until reading your statement on him.  Maybe, if I made use of those early MR's I have by reading them again, instead of just keeping them stored I might find out even more about this manufacturer, but that's too much like work (LOL).  Out of curiousity, I'll try to make time for that though, but still need to dig out some A-C kits.  First priority right now though is for me to put together a system-wide slide program on Conrail since I was appointed to show a program on this Road this Friday at my local NRHS Chapter (it's the 10th anniversary since CR was taken over by NS and CSX); never enough time for anything.  Later,  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Ray W,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>              I think you are right about G Stock doing his own thing. I do want to answer what someone else brought up since you mention Ed Alexander (as if there aren't enough facts thrown around already)  In the course of my study of George Stock facts 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I did see mention that Ed Alexander was a frequent visitor to George Stock's shop.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Jay, As for George Stock getting his original GG-1 mold from Ed Alexander, as Jim pointed out, Stock was a master machinist -- he didn't need to buy anything from another manufacturer. Besides, Stock started producing GG-1's in 1936 (he started his business in 1930) and I don't believe Ed Alexander was on the scene yet at that time. George Stock's machinist expertise was such that he custom built (from raw brass stock) his offerings of H0 locomotives for his customers. One notation that should finalize whether Stock bought any of his GG-1 components, body mold included, can be found as a description of his "GG-1 LOCOMOTIVE KIT" in his 1947 catalog where he goes on to say (under this heading), "The originator of the loco kit -- known to the HO fan since 1936! This loco, patterned after the PRR class GG-1 electric loco, (4-6-6-4) is the only twin motor model available. Chassis which comes 100% complete is die cast, drive wheels are brass. Al l gears are installed. 2 Pittman DC60 motors provide enormous power. Bronze cab is completely drilled. . . . "
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   As is noted, he states he's the originator of these GG-1 kits. Under the remainder of Stock's line of locomotives in his catalog, headed only as "CUSTOM LOCOMOTIVES", he says, "We can build special locomotives to your order. All locos are made of brass, with infinite care laid to detail and workmanship. We have an established reputation for work of this type and we are the only HO firm in the USA that offers this service. . . . " Under this, he lists an offering of some 20 different wheel-arrangement locomotives (w/tenders) which states he will make for any Road configuration -- from 0-4-0's to articulateds and everything in between. This is his line of loco's, the customer chooses which loco he wants Stock to build for him. By this, it can be seen that he made everything he sold as his own brand. At this same time, Stock also offered locomotive and rolling stock from 18 other manufacturers (Mantua, Varney, A-C, Picard, Ideal, Pacific H0, Samps on, etc.) as part of what he carried. Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > You were quicker while I was still looking up your photos! Can you or someone else confirm that George Stock sold his molds to Schrader? I think I read that somewhere and that Schrader then upgraded the kit with a better drive chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > I also read somewhere that George Stock got the original mold from Ed Alexander, maybe in Carsten's Book. Anyone know more about that geneology?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > Hi Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > The GG-1 being Cast Brass or Bronze, would be a Schrader or Geo. Stock and from the poor photos, it definitely looks like one of those, my guess probably Schader; they were more widely available, too. Jim H has photos of both in his Album here. If I'm not mistaken, I think Scrader acquired the molds for Stock and then upgraded the model? Or am I mistaken, all?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > On ebay this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one with original packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much that now I'm very interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. Many of these listings had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit instructions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > I'm not bidding on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast diesels on the bench already, but...whenever listings with good photos of vintage engines I'm not familiar with show up, I always grab a copy for my home picture files. I'm not likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can still admire the craftsmanship in the castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > ChrisBrannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > Lindsay Brass Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage $125.00 Free 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER $72.00 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > Brass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale Train 0 Bids $9.95 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > A 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > RARE 1st RUN VARNEY 0-4-0 LIL JOE STEAM LOCO - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING 2 Bids $2.50 Free shipping 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > VARNEY 4-6-2 SUPER PACIFIC STEAM LOCOMOTIVE - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING 4 Bids $22.75 Free shippin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > VARNEY 2-8-0 SUPER CONSOLIDATION STEAM LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT RUNS 4 Bids $22.75 Free shippin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > VINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS 1 Bid $9.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > Vintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi 0 Bids $1.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > VINTAGE HO MODEL TRAIN REPAIR & REPLACEMENT PARTS LOT 0 Bids $19.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > VINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX 0 Bids $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9519
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: what is it
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim,  I appreciate your detailing the differences in the two Schrader versions of their GG-1.  I'm a member of H0seekers, and perhaps if I would have gone up there I might have seen this, but I seldom avail myself of that site.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'll have to look at these drawings, but in the meantime by the roof being two-tiered, I'm presuming you're referring to those two large rectangles on the roof as part of the body casting (which is only one tier high, not like it's actually two steps high).  I'll probably clarify that myself when checking out those drawings, but until I do, I'll just mention my Schraders both have these two single-layer raised rectangles on the roof.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
With the main difference between Schrader's two different versions being the gearing, it looks like mine are both Version II's, as they have the third gear added between the two drive gears (I believe it's called an "idler gear").  Thanks for clearing this up for me.  This still leaves the mystery of the raised keystones, which you say there were no changes in the body because of the small quanties made.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>               A reply about Schrader versions  I and II. The blown up drawings on HOseeker were sent to him by me. Again they are "drawings"  As you will see both show the the detail on the top of the roof as being two tiered or layered which is not on the real engine. The main difference of Version I and II. Look at where the gear on the end of the motor shaft sits. Version I went right to a second gear in the driver frame. The second version has a third little gear added between these two gears.  This is the main difference between the two Schrader versions. I know of no changes in the bodies partly due to the small amount made.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                More to digest                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:22 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: what is it
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Hi Jay and Jim, Like you guys, I can't confirm this guy's GG-1 manufacturer, but from what I see Jim mentioning from his blown-up pics of this guy's poor photos, I'd have to say it's Schrader. Never mind about any "possible implications" of your GG-1 plans either Jay, or having to be leery about them. I do note that Jim states, "There is a little casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact middle. Schrader does not have this as it is smooth. On the other hand Stock has a little raised Keystone shape casting on his body in that location."
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Jim, I know you have a Schrader GG-1, or at least you've identified your brass/bronze GG-1 as Schrader; how have you identified it (did it come it the original box, for instance?)? I do notice though, that you have both the Stock and the Schrader GG-1's and will take photos of them later. A question in my mind is that I'm strongly suspecting you may have these two engines mixed up with one another -- the reason for my question on how you came to identify the Schrader.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Now getting back to needing to be leery of Jay's Schrader GG-1 plans -- and my questioning on the I.D. of Jim's Schrader GG-1 -- which, when noting the raised keystone shaped casting on the body, "does not have this as it is smooth." 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   My TWO mint in original box Schrader GG-1 kits BOTH have this raised keystone casting on the body at the location described, and the plans that came with these kits clearly show this raised keystone as well. I don't know if George Stock's GG-1 had this, as my Geo. Stock catalog does not show such detail in its photos (I do not have a Stock GG-1). I am wondering though, (1) if your (Jim's) GG-1 without the raised keystone casting is perhaps a George Stock as it doesn't match my Schrader GG-1's. I really don't know if my two (both identical) Schrader GG-1's are version 1's or version 2's, but if they're version 2's -- as Jay's plans indicate this version having these raised keystones -- it wouldn't make sense that Schrader version 1 would not have these raised keystones. These raised keystones on this eBay model in question also have these raised keystones, and is the reason why I feel it's a Schrader. If George Stock also had raised keystones, then at least we can't rule this mystery engine out as a Schrader, even if it turns out to be a Geo. Stock. BUT, then -- where does that leave the smooth-sided body GG-1? Jim, I hope all goes well with your tests today. Ciao, Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Hi Jim H., John H. Chris B. and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Sorry could not reply last night, back late from a wake of a friend of almost 30 years and member of our community service club (Rotary), gone suddenly too soon (60 -- unforseen brain hemmorage) and up eary now to get ready for funeral.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jim, those pantograph mounting "bumps" were what convinced me. Did not know of the roof-top access hatch placement. I did see the cast on herald evidence, but reasoned that this could have been an early, non-prototypical detail that Schader could have easily removed from the mold sometime in production just as I believe he added other details. But those "bumps" convinced me I was on the right trail.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > John, although incandescent lighting can make zamac castings appear a tarnished brass or bronze color, I was convinced early on this was not a Penn Line or Famoco as both of them have recesses cast between the side doors for the sand hatches; in addition Penn Line has cast on "nibs" for mounting the pantographs that are raised from the surface of the hoods; even if filed off, their remains would not be as prominant as "bumps" or extensions on the unit in question. Lastly, the window and vent area immediately next to the side windows has the "raw" look of a Schrader (or Stock) unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jim, after sleeping on it, I went downstairs a few minutes ago and checked my Schrader assembly booklet and Jim, the drawing shows the body casting with the raised Keystone on the side!!! So it must have been there in at least early Schrader production!!! I have five Schrader factory photographs used for promotion, (found in a Louis Hertz file at a "Lionel" show, and will try to locate those showing both Schrader models and a factory show display. Will try to find them after the funeral and see if they offer clues or confirmation.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > Jay W, John H, Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > I was going to pass trying to ID that GG-1 body but you have peaked my interest. Since the info given can't be verified and the pictures poor figuring it out will be hard. Add to that is it Bronze / Brass or what. Is it in fact HO. Could it be double O like I think it was called Maxon. Could it be a casting done by some one ?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > I took some of the better pictures and tried to enlarge them. I have a magnifying glass looking at these and I'm still not totally sure what it is but leaning towards Schrader for these reasons and details. Schrader had the little "bumps" as part of the casting where the pantographs go. George Stock did not. Those rectangle shapes on the top of the body are centered and only those appear centered on Schrader. Stocks were off center as there was a little circle detail at one end. I was ready to say SCHRADER 90% until I saw one little detail that is on Stock GG-bodies but not Schrader. There is a little casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact middle.Schrader does NOT have this as it is smooth. On the other hand Stock has a little raised keystone shape cast on his body in that location.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > I have to drop it down to 75% thinking Schrader. All that said still unsure.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > Big help. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9520
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: what is it
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim,  Good to see you've taken time to eat and relax.  I regret not getting back up here sooner this evening to respond to your replies, but then I guess we'll just continue this tomorrow -- it's not going anywhere.  Yes, I remember the Loco Builders Photos in RMC.  I'll have to dig that issue (Sept. 62) out to have a look at it (again, another time consumer in locating it -- LOL).  What you're saying though is even more confusing, in that you're describing the Schrader GG-1 as not having the raised keystone either in RMC oe in your collection, whereas both of my Schrader engines has this keystone as an integral part of the body castings -- and these are mint in the box kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Now, it's not that I refute the "evidence" in RMC, but then, I really have no way of knowing whether the author of that article actually photographed a Schrader GG-1, or whether he photographed a different GG-1 thinking it was a Schrader.  I do note that your's does not have the cast raised keystone.  My only guess, when reading that both the RMC engine and your GG-1 had the hugh Pennsylvania decal, is that perhaps some of the original modelers/owners of these Schrader GG-1's either ground off or filed (modified) this raised keystone even with the rest of the body casting to be able to use these hugh keystone decals, which they apparently preferred.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
The Schrader kits did not come with these hugh keystone decals, but instead came with the much smaller decal which fit exactly onto these raised keystone castings; my two kits still have all the original decals that came with them, and the keystone decals are the size I described -- same size as the raised cast keystone.  For all we know (and we're still pieces the parts of all these puzzles together), all of Schrader's GG-1's may have come with cast keystones originally, but some may have been modified by the modelers to enable differently sized decals to be used.  I doubt that Version I did not have the raised keystone, not only as you state that their production quantity was small (which would not make such changes economically feasible), but would include having to re-tool the molds for Version II.  Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>    Hi Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>             I wanted to add another reason why I doubt I have mixed up the Stock And Schrader GG-1 ID's  I just had a good dinner time to relax and of course that coffee. This will answer another question someone posed too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>        I'm sure you are young enough to remember  Loco Builders Photos that appeared in RMC. If you go to RMC September 1962 issue  Loco Builders Photos-3 the Schrader GG-1 is pictured and previewed. It gives a complete description of the engine  It says "WERE ALL BRASS". Superstructure was shell mold brass casting. Frames were milled bars. Truck frames, pilots, steps, horns, etc. were lost wax castings. The picture will back me up on details I put forth.  Excluding the added antenna you can see the dimples for the pantographs, the double "panels" (someone please tell me what they were for) centered in the middle of the roof,  the odd shaped grill/ventilator on the side at one end and no cast keystone on the body of this engine, just a huge Pennsylvania decal.   This is exactly like my Schrader engine that I sent pictures of and wrote about.   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>         There is a statement near the end that is useful that says and should ask a question others asked.    Loco BASED on pre war George Stock but COMPLETELY retooled. The Stock loco used cast type metal main frames and parts just like my George Stock GG-1 that I sent pictures of. While the possibility of some Schrader GG-1s having the cast keystone on you can't change all the other details that separate a Schrader GG-1 from a Stock. Based on this I'm sure I didn't switch the ID's.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:22 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: what is it
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Hi Jay and Jim, Like you guys, I can't confirm this guy's GG-1 manufacturer, but from what I see Jim mentioning from his blown-up pics of this guy's poor photos, I'd have to say it's Schrader. Never mind about any "possible implications" of your GG-1 plans either Jay, or having to be leery about them. I do note that Jim states, "There is a little casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact middle. Schrader does not have this as it is smooth. On the other hand Stock has a little raised Keystone shape casting on his body in that location."
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Jim, I know you have a Schrader GG-1, or at least you've identified your brass/bronze GG-1 as Schrader; how have you identified it (did it come it the original box, for instance?)? I do notice though, that you have both the Stock and the Schrader GG-1's and will take photos of them later. A question in my mind is that I'm strongly suspecting you may have these two engines mixed up with one another -- the reason for my question on how you came to identify the Schrader.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Now getting back to needing to be leery of Jay's Schrader GG-1 plans -- and my questioning on the I.D. of Jim's Schrader GG-1 -- which, when noting the raised keystone shaped casting on the body, "does not have this as it is smooth." 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   My TWO mint in original box Schrader GG-1 kits BOTH have this raised keystone casting on the body at the location described, and the plans that came with these kits clearly show this raised keystone as well. I don't know if George Stock's GG-1 had this, as my Geo. Stock catalog does not show such detail in its photos (I do not have a Stock GG-1). I am wondering though, (1) if your (Jim's) GG-1 without the raised keystone casting is perhaps a George Stock as it doesn't match my Schrader GG-1's. I really don't know if my two (both identical) Schrader GG-1's are version 1's or version 2's, but if they're version 2's -- as Jay's plans indicate this version having these raised keystones -- it wouldn't make sense that Schrader version 1 would not have these raised keystones. These raised keystones on this eBay model in question also have these raised keystones, and is the reason why I feel it's a Schrader. If George Stock also had raised keystones, then at least we can't rule this mystery engine out as a Schrader, even if it turns out to be a Geo. Stock. BUT, then -- where does that leave the smooth-sided body GG-1? Jim, I hope all goes well with your tests today. Ciao, Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Hi Jim H., John H. Chris B. and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Sorry could not reply last night, back late from a wake of a friend of almost 30 years and member of our community service club (Rotary), gone suddenly too soon (60 -- unforseen brain hemmorage) and up eary now to get ready for funeral.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jim, those pantograph mounting "bumps" were what convinced me. Did not know of the roof-top access hatch placement. I did see the cast on herald evidence, but reasoned that this could have been an early, non-prototypical detail that Schader could have easily removed from the mold sometime in production just as I believe he added other details. But those "bumps" convinced me I was on the right trail.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > John, although incandescent lighting can make zamac castings appear a tarnished brass or bronze color, I was convinced early on this was not a Penn Line or Famoco as both of them have recesses cast between the side doors for the sand hatches; in addition Penn Line has cast on "nibs" for mounting the pantographs that are raised from the surface of the hoods; even if filed off, their remains would not be as prominant as "bumps" or extensions on the unit in question. Lastly, the window and vent area immediately next to the side windows has the "raw" look of a Schrader (or Stock) unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jim, after sleeping on it, I went downstairs a few minutes ago and checked my Schrader assembly booklet and Jim, the drawing shows the body casting with the raised Keystone on the side!!! So it must have been there in at least early Schrader production!!! I have five Schrader factory photographs used for promotion, (found in a Louis Hertz file at a "Lionel" show, and will try to locate those showing both Schrader models and a factory show display. Will try to find them after the funeral and see if they offer clues or confirmation.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > Jay W, John H, Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > I was going to pass trying to ID that GG-1 body but you have peaked my interest. Since the info given can't be verified and the pictures poor figuring it out will be hard. Add to that is it Bronze / Brass or what. Is it in fact HO. Could it be double O like I think it was called Maxon. Could it be a casting done by some one ?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > I took some of the better pictures and tried to enlarge them. I have a magnifying glass looking at these and I'm still not totally sure what it is but leaning towards Schrader for these reasons and details. Schrader had the little "bumps" as part of the casting where the pantographs go. George Stock did not. Those rectangle shapes on the top of the body are centered and only those appear centered on Schrader. Stocks were off center as there was a little circle detail at one end. I was ready to say SCHRADER 90% until I saw one little detail that is on Stock GG-bodies but not Schrader. There is a little casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact middle.Schrader does NOT have this as it is smooth. On the other hand Stock has a little raised keystone shape cast on his body in that location.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > I have to drop it down to 75% thinking Schrader. All that said still unsure.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > Big help. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9521
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: what is it
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                        Once you look at the 
exploded view drawing on HOseeker you will see I meant two actual tiers. One up 
from the roof and then another tier for those two rectangles (and exactly what 
are those rectangles meant to represent ??).  Also the ( I call it ) grill 
/ ventilator that is on the both sides  but on one end only is not shown. 
If you look closely at the drawings for both versions no 1 doesn't show any 
little bumps for the pants, but the other drawing for version II shows them. 
While that little detail change could be made from version one to two that would 
require changing the die, to me, would be foolish for the small amount made. 
 Whom ever made up these drawings took vast 
liberties with the details and then I also have to wonder about the 
keystone being drawn on. Make any sense ????
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     Also  I can't swear some Schrader 
bodies didn't have the keystone but I'm assuming by the small number produced 
(225) it didn't make sense to take it off if it was there in the first place. 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   As for the extra gear on Version II, you are 
right that it is an idler gear. It must have been added for some reason like 
making the engine run better. I hate to add other facts but the bottom plate 
over both drive wheels sets changed also. I can send you that change 
information after things settle down.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Jim 
H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:55 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: what is it
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, I appreciate your detailing the differences in the two Schrader 
  versions of their GG-1. I'm a member of H0seekers, and perhaps if I would have 
  gone up there I might have seen this, but I seldom avail myself of that site. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'll have to look at these drawings, but in the meantime by the roof 
  being two-tiered, I'm presuming you're referring to those two large rectangles 
  on the roof as part of the body casting (which is only one tier high, not like 
  it's actually two steps high). I'll probably clarify that myself when checking 
  out those drawings, but until I do, I'll just mention my Schraders both have 
  these two single-layer raised rectangles on the roof.

                                                                                                                                                                                  With the main 
  difference between Schrader's two different versions being the gearing, it 
  looks like mine are both Version II's, as they have the third gear added 
  between the two drive gears (I believe it's called an "idler gear"). Thanks 
  for clearing this up for me. This still leaves the mystery of the raised 
  keystones, which you say there were no changes in the body because of the 
  small quanties made. Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > A reply about 
  Schrader versions I and II. The blown up drawings on HOseeker were sent to him 
  by me. Again they are "drawings" As you will see both show the the detail on 
  the top of the roof as being two tiered or layered which is not on the real 
  engine. The main difference of Version I and II. Look at where the gear on the 
  end of the motor shaft sits. Version I went right to a second gear in the 
  driver frame. The second version has a third little gear added between these 
  two gears. This is the main difference between the two Schrader versions. I 
  know of no changes in the bodies partly due to the small amount made.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  More to digest Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:22 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Re: what is it
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Jay and Jim, Like you guys, I 
  can't confirm this guy's GG-1 manufacturer, but from what I see Jim mentioning 
  from his blown-up pics of this guy's poor photos, I'd have to say it's 
  Schrader. Never mind about any "possible implications" of your GG-1 plans 
  either Jay, or having to be leery about them. I do note that Jim states, 
  "There is a little casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 
  body between the windows in the exact middle. Schrader does not have this as 
  it is smooth. On the other hand Stock has a little raised Keystone shape 
  casting on his body in that location."
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim, I know you have a 
  Schrader GG-1, or at least you've identified your brass/bronze GG-1 as 
  Schrader; how have you identified it (did it come it the original box, for 
  instance?)? I do notice though, that you have both the Stock and the Schrader 
  GG-1's and will take photos of them later. A question in my mind is that I'm 
  strongly suspecting you may have these two engines mixed up with one another 
  -- the reason for my question on how you came to identify the 
  Schrader.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Now getting back to needing to be leery of Jay's 
  Schrader GG-1 plans -- and my questioning on the I.D. of Jim's Schrader GG-1 
  -- which, when noting the raised keystone shaped casting on the body, "does 
  not have this as it is smooth." 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > My TWO mint in original box 
  Schrader GG-1 kits BOTH have this raised keystone casting on the body at the 
  location described, and the plans that came with these kits clearly show this 
  raised keystone as well. I don't know if George Stock's GG-1 had this, as my 
  Geo. Stock catalog does not show such detail in its photos (I do not have a 
  Stock GG-1). I am wondering though, (1) if your (Jim's) GG-1 without the 
  raised keystone casting is perhaps a George Stock as it doesn't match my 
  Schrader GG-1's. I really don't know if my two (both identical) Schrader 
  GG-1's are version 1's or version 2's, but if they're version 2's -- as Jay's 
  plans indicate this version having these raised keystones -- it wouldn't make 
  sense that Schrader version 1 would not have these raised keystones. These 
  raised keystones on this eBay model in question also have these raised 
  keystones, and is the reason why I feel it's a Schrader. If George Stock also 
  had raised keystones, then at least we can't rul e this mystery engine out as 
  a Schrader, even if it turns out to be a Geo. Stock. BUT, then -- where does 
  that leave the smooth-sided body GG-1? Jim, I hope all goes well with your 
  tests today. Ciao, Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  Hi Jim H., John H. Chris B. and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Sorry could 
  not reply last night, back late from a wake of a friend of almost 30 years and 
  member of our community service club (Rotary), gone suddenly too soon (60 -- 
  unforseen brain hemmorage) and up eary now to get ready for funeral.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jim, those pantograph mounting "bumps" were what convinced 
  me. Did not know of the roof-top access hatch placement. I did see the cast on 
  herald evidence, but reasoned that this could have been an early, 
  non-prototypical detail that Schader could have easily removed from the mold 
  sometime in production just as I believe he added other details. But those 
  "bumps" convinced me I was on the right trail.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  John, although incandescent lighting can make zamac castings appear a 
  tarnished brass or bronze color, I was convinced early on this was not a Penn 
  Line or Famoco as both of them have recesses cast between the side doors for 
  the sand hatches; in addition Penn Line has cast on "nibs" for mounting the 
  pantographs that are raised from the surface of the hoods; even if filed off, 
  their remains would not be as prominant as "bumps" or extensions on the unit 
  in question. Lastly, the window and vent area immediately next to the side 
  windows has the "raw" look of a Schrader (or Stock) unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jim, after sleeping on it, I went downstairs a few minutes ago 
  and checked my Schrader assembly booklet and Jim, the drawing shows the body 
  casting with the raised Keystone on the side!!! So it must have been there in 
  at least early Schrader production!! ! I have five Schrader factory 
  photographs used for promotion, (found in a Louis Hertz file at a "Lionel" 
  show, and will try to locate those showing both Schrader models and a factory 
  show display. Will try to find them after the funeral and see if they offer 
  clues or confirmation.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Jay W, John H, Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  > I was going to pass trying to ID that GG-1 body but you have peaked my 
  interest. Since the info given can't be verified and the pictures poor 
  figuring it out will be hard. Add to that is it Bronze / Brass or what. Is it 
  in fact HO. Could it be double O like I think it was called Maxon. Could it be 
  a casting done by some one ?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > I took some of the better 
  pictures and tried to enlarge them. I have a magnifying glass looking at these 
  and I'm still not totally sure what it is but leaning towards Schrader for 
  these reasons and details. Schrader had the little "bumps" as part of the 
  casting where the pantographs go. George Stock did not. Those rectangle shapes 
  on the top of the body are centered and only those appear centered on 
  Schrader. Stocks were off center as there was a little circle detail at one 
  end. I was ready to say SCHRADER 90% until I saw one little detail that is on 
  Stock GG-bodies but not Schrader. There is a little casting shape on a picture 
  of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact 
  middle.Schrader does NOT have this as it is smooth. On the other hand Stock 
  has a little raised keystone shape cast on his body in that location.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > > I have to drop it down to 75% thinking Schrader. All that said still 
  unsure.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Big help. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9522
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      A very close friend and vintage 
HO collector from NY and who was a member of the Spanagel SIG group wrote an 
article with this information. I will give you his name off line.   He 
tells of many frequent visits to George Stock's workshop (but doesn't put a year 
with it) by Ed Alexander who it states was one of the starters of the TCA and 
had his own model business and that "Eric (the alias) Lanal" would come with 
him. He also had a model train business. I'm sure you know what they both had. 
What they did or what they talked about is not specified.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:36 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock 
  or Schrader?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, As I said to Jay, I wasn't aware that Ed Alexander was on the scene 
  this early (early to mid 1930's) until reading your statement on him. Maybe, 
  if I made use of those early MR's I have by reading them again, instead of 
  just keeping them stored I might find out even more about this manufacturer, 
  but that's too much like work (LOL). Out of curiousity, I'll try to make time 
  for that though, but still need to dig out some A-C kits. First priority right 
  now though is for me to put together a system-wide slide program on Conrail 
  since I was appointed to show a program on this Road this Friday at my local 
  NRHS Chapter (it's the 10th anniversary since CR was taken over by NS and 
  CSX); never enough time for anything. Later, Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Ray W,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I 
  think you are right about G Stock doing his own thing. I do want to answer 
  what someone else brought up since you mention Ed Alexander (as if there 
  aren't enough facts thrown around already) In the course of my study of George 
  Stock facts 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I did see mention that Ed Alexander was a frequent 
  visitor to George Stock's shop.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Re: GG-1 Geo. Stock or Schrader?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jay, As for George 
  Stock getting his original GG-1 mold from Ed Alexander, as Jim pointed out, 
  Stock was a master machinist -- he didn't need to buy anything from another 
  manufacturer. Besides, Stock started producing GG-1's in 1936 (he started his 
  business in 1930) and I don't believe Ed Alexander was on the scene yet at 
  that time. George Stock's machinist expertise was such that he custom built 
  (from raw brass stock) his offerings of H0 locomotives for his customers. One 
  notation that should finalize whether Stock bought any of his GG-1 components, 
  body mold included, can be found as a description of his "GG-1 LOCOMOTIVE KIT" 
  in his 1947 catalog where he goes on to say (under this heading), "The 
  originator of the loco kit -- known to the HO fan since 1936! This loco, 
  patterned after the PRR class GG-1 electric loco, (4-6-6-4) is the only twin 
  motor model available. Chassis which comes 100% complete is die cast, drive 
  wheels are brass. Al l gears are in stalled. 2 Pittman DC60 motors provide 
  enormous power. Bronze cab is completely drilled. . . . "
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > As 
  is noted, he states he's the originator of these GG-1 kits. Under the 
  remainder of Stock's line of locomotives in his catalog, headed only as 
  "CUSTOM LOCOMOTIVES" , he says, "We can build special locomotives to your 
  order. All locos are made of brass, with infinite care laid to detail and 
  workmanship. We have an established reputation for work of this type and we 
  are the only HO firm in the USA that offers this service. . . . " Under this, 
  he lists an offering of some 20 different wheel-arrangement locomotives 
  (w/tenders) which states he will make for any Road configuration -- from 
  0-4-0's to articulateds and everything in between. This is his line of loco's, 
  the customer chooses which loco he wants Stock to build for him. By this, it 
  can be seen that he made everything he sold as his own brand. At this same 
  time, Stock also offered locomotive and rolling stock from 18 other 
  manufacturers (Mantua, Varney, A-C, Picard, Ideal, Pacific H0, Samps on, etc.) 
  as part of what he carried. Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > You were quicker while I was still looking 
  up your photos! Can you or someone else confirm that George Stock sold his 
  molds to Schrader? I think I read that somewhere and that Schrader then 
  upgraded the kit with a better drive chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I 
  also read somewhere that George Stock got the original mold from Ed Alexander, 
  maybe in Carsten's Book. Anyone know more about that geneology?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > > Hi Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > The GG-1 being Cast 
  Brass or Bronze, would be a Schrader or Geo. Stock and from the poor photos, 
  it definitely looks like one of those, my guess probably Schader; they were 
  more widely available, too. Jim H has photos of both in his Album here. If I'm 
  not mistaken, I think Scrader acquired the molds for Stock and then upgraded 
  the model? Or am I mistaken, all?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Jay 
  W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  > > On ebay this morning I saw some nice vintage engines, at least one 
  with original packaging I'd never seen. This group has taught me so much that 
  now I'm very interested in a much wider range of vintage HO engines. Many of 
  these listings had nice closeup photos of the engine, packaging, or kit 
  instructions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > I'm not bidding 
  on any of these, too many hobbytown and other diecast diesels on the bench 
  already, but...whenever listings with good photos of vintage engines I'm not 
  familiar with show up, I always grab a copy for my home picture files. I'm not 
  likely to ever own any vintage steam, but I can still admire the craftsmanship 
  in the castings and valve gear this way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
  ChrisBrannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > Lindsay Brass 
  Switcher Kit Original Box Vintage $125.00 Free 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > HO CUSTOM METAL M-1 PRR 
  4-4-4-4 ENGINE TENDER $72.00 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
  Brass/Bronze Locomotive HO Scale Train 0 Bids $9.95 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > A 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > RARE 1st RUN VARNEY 0-4-0 LIL JOE STEAM LOCO - IT 
  RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > - VIDEO TO BE POSTED IN LISTING - FREE SHIPPING 2 
  Bids $2.50 Free shipping 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > VARNEY 4-6-2 SUPER PACIFIC 
  STEAM LOCOMOTIVE - IT RUNS
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > HAS BRASS TENDER - VIDEO TO 
  BE POSTED IN LISTING 4 Bids $22.75 Free shippin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > VARNEY 2-8-0 SUPER 
  CONSOLIDATION STEAM LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > FREE SHIPPING - VIDEO TO 
  BE POSTED IN LISTING - IT RUNS 4 Bids $22.75 Free shippin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
  VINTAGE HO PENNSYLVANIA PASSENGER TRAIN CARS 1 Bid $9.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
  Vintage Cast Metal Body of A coal Car HO size no chassi 0 Bids $1.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > VINTAGE HO MODEL TRAIN REPAIR & 
  REPLACEMENT PARTS LOT 0 Bids $19.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > > VINTAGE VARNEY TRAIN SET* 
  LOCOMOTIVE GONDOLA HOPPER BOX 0 Bids $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9523
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: what is it
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm a firm 
believer in that you can better tell about a product if you have one. That is 
not to say there are not variations usually unknown. Sometimes to many facts 
just confuses the issue at hand but you have to tell the whole story and hope it 
can be correctly told. It can be a pain but it 
can be fun. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:13 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: what is it
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim, Thanks for clarifying. I remember when you got that Stock GG-1 back 
  last October 31. I suggested the possibility of a switch in engines only as 
  you mention your Schrader GG-1 as having no raised cast keystone, which 
  puzzles me immensely, since both of mine have this feature. If your two GG-1's 
  were not switched, which I'm glad to see, this still leaves this seemingly odd 
  anomaly of your Schrader GG-1 not having this raised keystone, which I can't 
  understand. Hopefully, we'll find an answer to this difference. Ray 
  W.

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  A very quick response to the possibility of my switching the identity of the 
  Stock and Schrader GG-1 as I have 27 Emails here to answer. Two of the 
  pictures I just sent are full side shoots of both. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > The Stock GG-1 is 
  first. Easily distinguished is G Stock GG-1 had cast metal (zamac ?) frames, 
  side frames and brass wheels. It also had a cast metal detail you put on the 
  top. As the picture I just sent G Stock GG-1 has the keystone
                                                                                                                                                                                  > On the 
  other hand Schrader had all brass frame, side frames and drivers. While my 
  Schrader GG-1 didn't come in a box it did have exploded drawings with it and 
  parts list. One of the easy to recognize details is the grill / ventilator on 
  the side at one end. Other side opposite end The Scrader picture shows no 
  keystone 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Without getting deeper right now I doubt I switched the ID 
  of the engines. I just posted a recent Email with pictures. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:22 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Re: what is it
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Jay and Jim, Like you guys, I 
  can't confirm this guy's GG-1 manufacturer, but from what I see Jim mentioning 
  from his blown-up pics of this guy's poor photos, I'd have to say it's 
  Schrader. Never mind about any "possible implications" of your GG-1 plans 
  either Jay, or having to be leery about them. I do note that Jim states, 
  "There is a little casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 
  body between the windows in the exact middle. Schrader does not have this as 
  it is smooth. On the other hand Stock has a little raised Keystone shape 
  casting on his body in that location."
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim, I know you have a 
  Schrader GG-1, or at least you've identified your brass/bronze GG-1 as 
  Schrader; how have you identified it (did it come it the original box, for 
  instance?)? I do notice though, that you have both the Stock and the Schrader 
  GG-1's and will take photos of them later. A question in my mind is that I'm 
  strongly suspecting you may have these two engines mixed up with one another 
  -- the reason for my question on how you came to identify the 
  Schrader.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Now getting back to needing to be leery of Jay's 
  Schrader GG-1 plans -- and my questioning on the I.D. of Jim's Schrader GG-1 
  -- which, when noting the raised keystone shaped casting on the body, "does 
  not have this as it is smooth." 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > My TWO mint in original box 
  Schrader GG-1 kits BOTH have this raised keystone casting on the body at the 
  location described, and the plans that came with these kits clearly show this 
  raised keystone as well. I don't know if George Stock's GG-1 had this, as my 
  Geo. Stock catalog does not show such detail in its photos (I do not have a 
  Stock GG-1). I am wondering though, (1) if your (Jim's) GG-1 without the 
  raised keystone casting is perhaps a George Stock as it doesn't match my 
  Schrader GG-1's. I really don't know if my two (both identical) Schrader 
  GG-1's are version 1's or version 2's, but if they're version 2's -- as Jay's 
  plans indicate this version having these raised keystones -- it wouldn't make 
  sense that Schrader version 1 would not have these raised keystones. These 
  raised keystones on this eBay model in question also have these raised 
  keystones, and is the reason why I feel it's a Schrader. If George Stock also 
  had raised keystones, then at least we can't rul e this mystery engine out as 
  a Schrader, even if it turns out to be a Geo. Stock. BUT, then -- where does 
  that leave the smooth-sided body GG-1? Jim, I hope all goes well with your 
  tests today. Ciao, Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  Hi Jim H., John H. Chris B. and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Sorry could 
  not reply last night, back late from a wake of a friend of almost 30 years and 
  member of our community service club (Rotary), gone suddenly too soon (60 -- 
  unforseen brain hemmorage) and up eary now to get ready for funeral.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jim, those pantograph mounting "bumps" were what convinced 
  me. Did not know of the roof-top access hatch placement. I did see the cast on 
  herald evidence, but reasoned that this could have been an early, 
  non-prototypical detail that Schader could have easily removed from the mold 
  sometime in production just as I believe he added other details. But those 
  "bumps" convinced me I was on the right trail.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  John, although incandescent lighting can make zamac castings appear a 
  tarnished brass or bronze color, I was convinced early on this was not a Penn 
  Line or Famoco as both of them have recesses cast between the side doors for 
  the sand hatches; in addition Penn Line has cast on "nibs" for mounting the 
  pantographs that are raised from the surface of the hoods; even if filed off, 
  their remains would not be as prominant as "bumps" or extensions on the unit 
  in question. Lastly, the window and vent area immediately next to the side 
  windows has the "raw" look of a Schrader (or Stock) unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jim, after sleeping on it, I went downstairs a few minutes ago 
  and checked my Schrader assembly booklet and Jim, the drawing shows the body 
  casting with the raised Keystone on the side!!! So it must have been there in 
  at least early Schrader production!! ! I have five Schrader factory 
  photographs used for promotion, (found in a Louis Hertz file at a "Lionel" 
  show, and will try to locate those showing both Schrader models and a factory 
  show display. Will try to find them after the funeral and see if they offer 
  clues or confirmation.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Jay W, John H, Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  > I was going to pass trying to ID that GG-1 body but you have peaked my 
  interest. Since the info given can't be verified and the pictures poor 
  figuring it out will be hard. Add to that is it Bronze / Brass or what. Is it 
  in fact HO. Could it be double O like I think it was called Maxon. Could it be 
  a casting done by some one ?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > I took some of the better 
  pictures and tried to enlarge them. I have a magnifying glass looking at these 
  and I'm still not totally sure what it is but leaning towards Schrader for 
  these reasons and details. Schrader had the little "bumps" as part of the 
  casting where the pantographs go. George Stock did not. Those rectangle shapes 
  on the top of the body are centered and only those appear centered on 
  Schrader. Stocks were off center as there was a little circle detail at one 
  end. I was ready to say SCHRADER 90% until I saw one little detail that is on 
  Stock GG-bodies but not Schrader. There is a little casting shape on a picture 
  of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact 
  middle.Schrader does NOT have this as it is smooth. On the other hand Stock 
  has a little raised keystone shape cast on his body in that location.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > > I have to drop it down to 75% thinking Schrader. All that said still 
  unsure.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Big help. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9524
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I didn't intend to bid as I hate 
Pay Pal and rarely bid on Ebay anymore but somebody better bid before we lose 
the chance to ID that piece.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:21 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Stock/Schrader 
  GG-1 close ups
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay, Jim, Don't let me stand in anyone's way in placing a bid on this 
  piece. I won't bid on it for various reasons, but it could be informative if 
  someone were to get it, provided they also wished to acquire it anyway and not 
  go to any great expense just for the group.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Jim 
  H, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thanks for that extensive comparative review. So the next 
  step is for one of us to get this beast for a formal "biopsy." Being new here, 
  has there been any protocol in aquiring auction items brought to the group's 
  collective attention before closing? In my book, in fairness, I believe Chris 
  B. spotted it first and I am willing to let him have a fair shot at it unless 
  he defers sometime before closing. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Hi Jay, John 
  H, Chris B, All, Everyone interested, Etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I just 
  got back from my appointment and haven't read any post since I left. I wanted 
  to get these pictures and information to people " hot of the presses" and 
  fresh in my mind.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > The pictures will show the G Stock ( first 3) 
  and the Schrader (last 3) GG-1s and close ups of certain details. These 
  pictures were taken to try to ID a GG-1 on Ebay with an iffy description and 
  very poor pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Before I list the things I have found in 
  relationship to some details in the Ebay pictures I am more convinced the item 
  is NOT Stock or Schrader but an unknown, or different version and maybe even a 
  custom made GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > First on to small details that can be seen in 
  the pictures that appear on either the Stock or Schrader version but not all 
  on both.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Three small details appear on the bad Ebay pictures. 
  Bumps in the casting around where the pantographs appear, roof design showing 
  two CENTERED rectangles and the last detail on the side between the windows 
  that looks like a raised keystone.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Lets go to the first three 
  pictures of the Stock GG-1. Picture two shows a raised keystone detail that is 
  part of the mold. However (picture 3) you can see the roof detail has two 
  rectangles off center and a little round hole at one end. While not as clear 
  in picture one there are no bumps where the pantographs go. Only one of three 
  details appear on the Stock GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Pictures of Schrader GG-1. 
  While not clear (picture 4) there are bumps in the casting for the places a 
  pantograph goes. Picture 5 shows NO raised keystone detail. Picture 6 shows 
  the centered panels on the roof. Schrader GG-1 has 2 of the three little 
  details. The exploded view of Schrader GG-1 , version 1 & 2 , might show a 
  detail but I think drawn in because these drawings also show a two tier detail 
  on top of the roof and that's not right. Another detail I just realialized 
  that is on the Schrader body (picture 4) is a place on both sides but opposite 
  ends where a grill or ventilator goes. This does not appear in the pictures on 
  Ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I wish the pictures on Ebay better showed the wheels and 
  sideframes which might give more hints . Stock had cast metal (zamac) 
  frame,sideframes with brass drivers, Schrader had all brass frame, sideframes 
  and drivers..
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > The 10 and 1/2 length mentioned by the seller, if 
  true, rules out any Penn Line (9 and 1/2") as does material.The Stock and 
  Schrader GG-1's are suppose to be full scale HO size and my samples measure 
  out to 10 and 1/2"
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > To many facts being stated, to easy to screw 
  up (mix,forget, switch).Based on everything I honestly don't think it is 
  either Stock or Schrader. A detail just noticed on the poor Ebay pictures 
  "looks like a rib in the casting going full length on the side of the body 
  about the mid way point.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I DON"'T THINK EITHER STOCK OR 
  SCHRADER.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9525
						From: Bill Fornshell
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have looked for the eBay item number and can't find it.  Would you mind posting it as I would like to have a look at this GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Bill in Texas
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Mon, 4/6/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 11:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I didn't intend to bid as I hate Pay Pal and rarely bid
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> on Ebay anymore but somebody better bid before we lose the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> chance to ID that piece.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                          Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9526
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: what is it
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                         This little 
keystone causing big problems. Did Schrader have it on his mold / 
die produce a few and then take it off  for the rest or vice versa 
since you feel your mint Schrader are by all accounts the second version.  
Who knows. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         Like you said 
tomorrow another day but as always a pleasure to discuss these things with you 
and others.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 12:33 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: what is it
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim, Good to see you've taken time to eat and relax. I regret not 
  getting back up here sooner this evening to respond to your replies, but then 
  I guess we'll just continue this tomorrow -- it's not going anywhere. Yes, I 
  remember the Loco Builders Photos in RMC. I'll have to dig that issue (Sept. 
  62) out to have a look at it (again, another time consumer in locating it -- 
  LOL). What you're saying though is even more confusing, in that you're 
  describing the Schrader GG-1 as not having the raised keystone either in RMC 
  oe in your collection, whereas both of my Schrader engines has this keystone 
  as an integral part of the body castings -- and these are mint in the box 
  kits.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Now, it's not that I refute the "evidence" in RMC, but then, I 
  really have no way of knowing whether the author of that article actually 
  photographed a Schrader GG-1, or whether he photographed a different GG-1 
  thinking it was a Schrader. I do note that your's does not have the cast 
  raised keystone. My only guess, when reading that both the RMC engine and your 
  GG-1 had the hugh Pennsylvania decal, is that perhaps some of the original 
  modelers/owners of these Schrader GG-1's either ground off or filed (modified) 
  this raised keystone even with the rest of the body casting to be able to use 
  these hugh keystone decals, which they apparently preferred. 

                                                                                                                                                                                  The 
  Schrader kits did not come with these hugh keystone decals, but instead came 
  with the much smaller decal which fit exactly onto these raised keystone 
  castings; my two kits still have all the original decals that came with them, 
  and the keystone decals are the size I described -- same size as the raised 
  cast keystone. For all we know (and we're still pieces the parts of all these 
  puzzles together), all of Schrader's GG-1's may have come with cast keystones 
  originally, but some may have been modified by the modelers to enable 
  differently sized decals to be used. I doubt that Version I did not have the 
  raised keystone, not only as you state that their production quantity was 
  small (which would not make such changes economically feasible), but would 
  include having to re-tool the molds for Version II. Ray W.

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I 
  wanted to add another reason why I doubt I have mixed up the Stock And 
  Schrader GG-1 ID's I just had a good dinner time to relax and of course that 
  coffee. This will answer another question someone posed too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I'm sure 
  you are young enough to remember Loco Builders Photos that appeared in RMC. If 
  you go to RMC September 1962 issue Loco Builders Photos-3 the Schrader GG-1 is 
  pictured and previewed. It gives a complete description of the engine It says 
  "WERE ALL BRASS". Superstructure was shell mold brass casting. Frames were 
  milled bars. Truck frames, pilots, steps, horns, etc. were lost wax castings. 
  The picture will back me up on details I put forth. Excluding the added 
  antenna you can see the dimples for the pantographs, the double "panels" 
  (someone please tell me what they were for) centered in the middle of the 
  roof, the odd shaped grill/ventilator on the side at one end and no cast 
  keystone on the body of this engine, just a huge Pennsylvania decal. This is 
  exactly like my Schrader engine that I sent pictures of and wrote about. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > There is a statement near the end that is useful that says and should 
  ask a question others asked. Loco BASED on pre war George Stock but COMPLETELY 
  retooled. The Stock loco used cast type metal main frames and parts just like 
  my George Stock GG-1 that I sent pictures of. While the possibility of some 
  Schrader GG-1s having the cast keystone on you can't change all the other 
  details that separate a Schrader GG-1 from a Stock. Based on this I'm sure I 
  didn't switch the ID's.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: erieberk 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:22 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Re: what is it
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Jay and Jim, Like you guys, I 
  can't confirm this guy's GG-1 manufacturer, but from what I see Jim mentioning 
  from his blown-up pics of this guy's poor photos, I'd have to say it's 
  Schrader. Never mind about any "possible implications" of your GG-1 plans 
  either Jay, or having to be leery about them. I do note that Jim states, 
  "There is a little casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 
  body between the windows in the exact middle. Schrader does not have this as 
  it is smooth. On the other hand Stock has a little raised Keystone shape 
  casting on his body in that location."
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim, I know you have a 
  Schrader GG-1, or at least you've identified your brass/bronze GG-1 as 
  Schrader; how have you identified it (did it come it the original box, for 
  instance?)? I do notice though, that you have both the Stock and the Schrader 
  GG-1's and will take photos of them later. A question in my mind is that I'm 
  strongly suspecting you may have these two engines mixed up with one another 
  -- the reason for my question on how you came to identify the 
  Schrader.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Now getting back to needing to be leery of Jay's 
  Schrader GG-1 plans -- and my questioning on the I.D. of Jim's Schrader GG-1 
  -- which, when noting the raised keystone shaped casting on the body, "does 
  not have this as it is smooth." 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > My TWO mint in original box 
  Schrader GG-1 kits BOTH have this raised keystone casting on the body at the 
  location described, and the plans that came with these kits clearly show this 
  raised keystone as well. I don't know if George Stock's GG-1 had this, as my 
  Geo. Stock catalog does not show such detail in its photos (I do not have a 
  Stock GG-1). I am wondering though, (1) if your (Jim's) GG-1 without the 
  raised keystone casting is perhaps a George Stock as it doesn't match my 
  Schrader GG-1's. I really don't know if my two (both identical) Schrader 
  GG-1's are version 1's or version 2's, but if they're version 2's -- as Jay's 
  plans indicate this version having these raised keystones -- it wouldn't make 
  sense that Schrader version 1 would not have these raised keystones. These 
  raised keystones on this eBay model in question also have these raised 
  keystones, and is the reason why I feel it's a Schrader. If George Stock also 
  had raised keystones, then at least we can't rul e this mystery engine out as 
  a Schrader, even if it turns out to be a Geo. Stock. BUT, then -- where does 
  that leave the smooth-sided body GG-1? Jim, I hope all goes well with your 
  tests today. Ciao, Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  Hi Jim H., John H. Chris B. and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Sorry could 
  not reply last night, back late from a wake of a friend of almost 30 years and 
  member of our community service club (Rotary), gone suddenly too soon (60 -- 
  unforseen brain hemmorage) and up eary now to get ready for funeral.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jim, those pantograph mounting "bumps" were what convinced 
  me. Did not know of the roof-top access hatch placement. I did see the cast on 
  herald evidence, but reasoned that this could have been an early, 
  non-prototypical detail that Schader could have easily removed from the mold 
  sometime in production just as I believe he added other details. But those 
  "bumps" convinced me I was on the right trail.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  John, although incandescent lighting can make zamac castings appear a 
  tarnished brass or bronze color, I was convinced early on this was not a Penn 
  Line or Famoco as both of them have recesses cast between the side doors for 
  the sand hatches; in addition Penn Line has cast on "nibs" for mounting the 
  pantographs that are raised from the surface of the hoods; even if filed off, 
  their remains would not be as prominant as "bumps" or extensions on the unit 
  in question. Lastly, the window and vent area immediately next to the side 
  windows has the "raw" look of a Schrader (or Stock) unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jim, after sleeping on it, I went downstairs a few minutes ago 
  and checked my Schrader assembly booklet and Jim, the drawing shows the body 
  casting with the raised Keystone on the side!!! So it must have been there in 
  at least early Schrader production!! ! I have five Schrader factory 
  photographs used for promotion, (found in a Louis Hertz file at a "Lionel" 
  show, and will try to locate those showing both Schrader models and a factory 
  show display. Will try to find them after the funeral and see if they offer 
  clues or confirmation.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Jay W, John H, Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  > I was going to pass trying to ID that GG-1 body but you have peaked my 
  interest. Since the info given can't be verified and the pictures poor 
  figuring it out will be hard. Add to that is it Bronze / Brass or what. Is it 
  in fact HO. Could it be double O like I think it was called Maxon. Could it be 
  a casting done by some one ?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > I took some of the better 
  pictures and tried to enlarge them. I have a magnifying glass looking at these 
  and I'm still not totally sure what it is but leaning towards Schrader for 
  these reasons and details. Schrader had the little "bumps" as part of the 
  casting where the pantographs go. George Stock did not. Those rectangle shapes 
  on the top of the body are centered and only those appear centered on 
  Schrader. Stocks were off center as there was a little circle detail at one 
  end. I was ready to say SCHRADER 90% until I saw one little detail that is on 
  Stock GG-bodies but not Schrader. There is a little casting shape on a picture 
  of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact 
  middle.Schrader does NOT have this as it is smooth. On the other hand Stock 
  has a little raised keystone shape cast on his body in that location.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > > I have to drop it down to 75% thinking Schrader. All that said still 
  unsure.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Big help. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9527
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                   No problem  Item no.   
320357133406    listed as   Brass/Bronze Locomotive HO 
scale train   and being sold by   
peachstreetantiques
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 1:10 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 
  Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                  I have looked for the eBay item number and can't find it. 
  Would you mind posting it as I would like to have a look at this 
  GG-1.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill in Texas

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Mon, 4/6/09, jim heckard 
  <jimheck@losch. net> 
  wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 11:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I didn't intend to bid as I hate 
  Pay Pal and rarely bid
                                                                                                                                                                                  > on Ebay anymore but somebody better bid before 
  we lose the
                                                                                                                                                                                  > chance to ID that piece.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9528
						From: Bill Fornshell
						Date: 4/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for posting the number.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Is this engine worth the time and a little money to turn it from an ugly duckling into a swan?  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Bill in Texas
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Tue, 4/7/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 12:18 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> No problem  Item no.   320357133406    listed as  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Brass/Bronze Locomotive HO scale train   and being sold by  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> peachstreetantiques
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                     Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   From: Bill Fornshell 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 1:10 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ups
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   I have looked for the eBay item number and can't find
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> it. Would you mind posting it as I would like to have a look
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> at this GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Bill in Texas
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   --- On Mon, 4/6/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> close ups
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 11:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > I didn't intend to bid as I hate Pay Pal and
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> rarely bid
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > on Ebay anymore but somebody better bid before we
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> lose the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > chance to ID that piece.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9529
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 4/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Vintage HO website.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I agree with your assessment about this being a good "what ever happened to the dies for XYZ?" One intriguing item (for me at least) was in the Lindberg section where it shows the ad for the never released U-25B. Since Lindberg's diesels were made by Roco, I have often wondered if the dies for this loco (since the photo shows what appears to be a mockup made from a test shot) ended up as the later Atlas U-25B release since Atlas had a number of their early locos made by Roco.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Again, this is drifting down the primrose path to perdition of going off-topic and I apologize. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Mike S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have found that "Tony's" website useful for HO manufactured after the general vintage years covered by our group here.  There is a little overlap in years and models, but interesting for tracing, for example, the afterlife of the Varney plastic freight cars, some of which were first made in 1950 through the changeover to Life Like packaging and the Penn Line, later Varney passenger cars which were produced under the L-L name as well.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Then too, there are some unusual locomotives, like the AHM/Rivarossi Krauss Maffei introduced in the early to mid 1960's that I am willing to bet are in some of our group's collections as well! And HOSeeker.org has some of the parts diagrams and catlogs for some of these later models as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I may have missed other folks mentioning it, but there is a very good 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > vintage HO website that has lots of good information. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > <http://www.ho-scaletrains.net/>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Sorry if everyone else knows about it, but I just found it by accident.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9530
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: what is it
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Before this thread I was completely ignorant of Stock and Schrader.  I'm happy I'm not bidding, this engine belongs with someone who can compare it with existing identified examples.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't know what else I don't know, but I'm always ready to learn more from such careful discussion of key details.  If it helps any, I combined all the poor ebay photos into one shot, and did what I could in photoshop to improve legibility.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9531
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                       Very hard to answer 
this  Since the pictures are bad I think it is missing the lead and 
trailing trucks and I don't know how much of the rest of the"running gear" is 
there. I can't tell if their is a motor. Since so far it has not been identified 
what it might need is very hard to judge. Now on the other hand if you are a 
vintage collector this might be of value that way and possibly an unknown item 
(which can't be assured without seeing it) that COULD be worth 
money.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         I personally 
don't think it's a good investment if you are just looking for something to work 
on. You can buy a more complete engine off eBay and  you would better know 
what you have and the condition. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hope this helps. To many 
unknowns here.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 1:40 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 
  Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for posting the number.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Is this engine worth 
  the time and a little money to turn it from an ugly duckling into a swan? 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill in Texas

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Tue, 4/7/09, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> 
  wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close ups
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 12:18 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  > No problem Item no. 
  320357133406 listed as 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Brass/Bronze Locomotive HO scale train and 
  being sold by 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > peachstreetantiques
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original 
  Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: Bill Fornshell 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 1:10 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: Re: 
  [vintageHO] Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1 close
                                                                                                                                                                                  > ups
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I have looked for the eBay item number and 
  can't find
                                                                                                                                                                                  > it. Would you mind posting it as I would like to have a 
  look
                                                                                                                                                                                  > at this GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Bill in 
  Texas
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- On Mon, 4/6/09, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Stock/Schrader GG-1
                                                                                                                                                                                  > close ups
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 11:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I didn't intend to bid 
  as I hate Pay Pal and
                                                                                                                                                                                  > rarely bid
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > on Ebay anymore but 
  somebody better bid before we
                                                                                                                                                                                  > lose the
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > chance to ID that 
  piece.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jim

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9532
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: what is it
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris, Ray, Others
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       First the tweaking you did 
made some improvements.The lighter pictures also help especially the side views. 
I know I had thought there was a raised rib running front to back on the side 
about half way from the bottom. Although you can slightly see it better in the 
one side view you lightened I now believe it is an optical illusion and not 
a detail.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        As you can now see 
identifying some things not a perfect world. Unknown versions put out complicate 
things. I have now come to the conclusion that it is a Schrader GG-I body. 
Everything to me matches my engine, which I am sure is Schrader except for 
that raised keystone.  BUT since Ray W has two GG-1 engines by 
Schrader mint in boxes that have the raised Keystone I think we are dealing with 
two Schrader bodies with a small detail added or taken away depending which came 
first. While anything is possible I always say "never say never". It is a little 
hard to believe a change made for a run of 225 pieces but it 
happens.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray W    You mentioned that 
the possibility existed that my and other Schrader GG-1 bodies may have 
been modified by removing the keystone. I have looked real hard and close 
up but see no evidence of that. I think the close up picture of the area I sent 
will show an extremely good job if there was one there in the first place. Just 
like a gun that has the serial numbers removed but still can be "brought out" I 
see no vestige that there was anything to start with.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         I'm convinced 
that we each have Schrader GG-1 engines but bodies with one little detail 
different  (due to a possible mold change) and that the item on Ebay is 
Schrader.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 6:53 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: what is 
  it
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Before this thread I was completely ignorant of Stock and 
  Schrader.  I'm happy I'm not bidding, this engine belongs with someone 
  who can compare it with existing identified examples.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't know what else I don't know, but I'm always ready to learn more 
  from such careful discussion of key details.  If it helps 
  any, I combined all the poor ebay photos into one shot, and did what I could 
  in photoshop to improve legibility.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9533
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: what is it
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim, Ray W. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim, I believe you are right about the possiblility of "running changes" by Schrader.  Thinking back to my middle school years, or Jr. High to some, where we all had "Shop" or "Industrial Arts."  Sand casting, was one of our "arts" learned first hand.  Thinking of it now, the process would allow the maker to make changes to the original pattern whenever he wanted to make a change.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
So I think it is plausible that Schrader could have added the hood-top bumps to his pattern, then later removed the raised keystone, then later again added the side grill details creating a number of varieties.  Not having his word or a casting journal, hard to tell without a side by side of castings to see if all the major overall characteristics and dimentions indicate the same basic pattern was used.  Getting a good look at the running gear should let us confirm the model is in the same "family" too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
And Jim, thanks for your exhaustive research and posts on the Stock/Schrader models; I have learned much.  I also received infomation from Larry at HO Seeker on submitting scans and will include the Schader GG-1 assembly booklet to add to your EP-4 booklet already there, once I get my scanner software and hooked up. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>        This little keystone causing big problems. Did Schrader have it on his mold / die produce a few and then take it off  for the rest or vice versa since you feel your mint Schrader are by all accounts the second version.  Who knows. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>        Like you said tomorrow another day but as always a pleasure to discuss these things with you and others.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                                          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 12:33 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: what is it
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Hi Jim, Good to see you've taken time to eat and relax. I regret not getting back up here sooner this evening to respond to your replies, but then I guess we'll just continue this tomorrow -- it's not going anywhere. Yes, I remember the Loco Builders Photos in RMC. I'll have to dig that issue (Sept. 62) out to have a look at it (again, another time consumer in locating it -- LOL). What you're saying though is even more confusing, in that you're describing the Schrader GG-1 as not having the raised keystone either in RMC oe in your collection, whereas both of my Schrader engines has this keystone as an integral part of the body castings -- and these are mint in the box kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Now, it's not that I refute the "evidence" in RMC, but then, I really have no way of knowing whether the author of that article actually photographed a Schrader GG-1, or whether he photographed a different GG-1 thinking it was a Schrader. I do note that your's does not have the cast raised keystone. My only guess, when reading that both the RMC engine and your GG-1 had the hugh Pennsylvania decal, is that perhaps some of the original modelers/owners of these Schrader GG-1's either ground off or filed (modified) this raised keystone even with the rest of the body casting to be able to use these hugh keystone decals, which they apparently preferred. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   The Schrader kits did not come with these hugh keystone decals, but instead came with the much smaller decal which fit exactly onto these raised keystone castings; my two kits still have all the original decals that came with them, and the keystone decals are the size I described -- same size as the raised cast keystone. For all we know (and we're still pieces the parts of all these puzzles together), all of Schrader's GG-1's may have come with cast keystones originally, but some may have been modified by the modelers to enable differently sized decals to be used. I doubt that Version I did not have the raised keystone, not only as you state that their production quantity was small (which would not make such changes economically feasible), but would include having to re-tool the molds for Version II. Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Hi Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > I wanted to add another reason why I doubt I have mixed up the Stock And Schrader GG-1 ID's I just had a good dinner time to relax and of course that coffee. This will answer another question someone posed too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > I'm sure you are young enough to remember Loco Builders Photos that appeared in RMC. If you go to RMC September 1962 issue Loco Builders Photos-3 the Schrader GG-1 is pictured and previewed. It gives a complete description of the engine It says "WERE ALL BRASS". Superstructure was shell mold brass casting. Frames were milled bars. Truck frames, pilots, steps, horns, etc. were lost wax castings. The picture will back me up on details I put forth. Excluding the added antenna you can see the dimples for the pantographs, the double "panels" (someone please tell me what they were for) centered in the middle of the roof, the odd shaped grill/ventilator on the side at one end and no cast keystone on the body of this engine, just a huge Pennsylvania decal. This is exactly like my Schrader engine that I sent pictures of and wrote about. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > There is a statement near the end that is useful that says and should ask a question others asked. Loco BASED on pre war George Stock but COMPLETELY retooled. The Stock loco used cast type metal main frames and parts just like my George Stock GG-1 that I sent pictures of. While the possibility of some Schrader GG-1s having the cast keystone on you can't change all the other details that separate a Schrader GG-1 from a Stock. Based on this I'm sure I didn't switch the ID's.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:22 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: what is it
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Hi Jay and Jim, Like you guys, I can't confirm this guy's GG-1 manufacturer, but from what I see Jim mentioning from his blown-up pics of this guy's poor photos, I'd have to say it's Schrader. Never mind about any "possible implications" of your GG-1 plans either Jay, or having to be leery about them. I do note that Jim states, "There is a little casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact middle. Schrader does not have this as it is smooth. On the other hand Stock has a little raised Keystone shape casting on his body in that location."
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jim, I know you have a Schrader GG-1, or at least you've identified your brass/bronze GG-1 as Schrader; how have you identified it (did it come it the original box, for instance?)? I do notice though, that you have both the Stock and the Schrader GG-1's and will take photos of them later. A question in my mind is that I'm strongly suspecting you may have these two engines mixed up with one another -- the reason for my question on how you came to identify the Schrader.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Now getting back to needing to be leery of Jay's Schrader GG-1 plans -- and my questioning on the I.D. of Jim's Schrader GG-1 -- which, when noting the raised keystone shaped casting on the body, "does not have this as it is smooth." 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > My TWO mint in original box Schrader GG-1 kits BOTH have this raised keystone casting on the body at the location described, and the plans that came with these kits clearly show this raised keystone as well. I don't know if George Stock's GG-1 had this, as my Geo. Stock catalog does not show such detail in its photos (I do not have a Stock GG-1). I am wondering though, (1) if your (Jim's) GG-1 without the raised keystone casting is perhaps a George Stock as it doesn't match my Schrader GG-1's. I really don't know if my two (both identical) Schrader GG-1's are version 1's or version 2's, but if they're version 2's -- as Jay's plans indicate this version having these raised keystones -- it wouldn't make sense that Schrader version 1 would not have these raised keystones. These raised keystones on this eBay model in question also have these raised keystones, and is the reason why I feel it's a Schrader. If George Stock also had raised keystones, then at least we can't rul e this mystery engine out as a Schrader, even if it turns out to be a Geo. Stock. BUT, then -- where does that leave the smooth-sided body GG-1? Jim, I hope all goes well with your tests today. Ciao, Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > Hi Jim H., John H. Chris B. and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > Sorry could not reply last night, back late from a wake of a friend of almost 30 years and member of our community service club (Rotary), gone suddenly too soon (60 -- unforseen brain hemmorage) and up eary now to get ready for funeral.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > Jim, those pantograph mounting "bumps" were what convinced me. Did not know of the roof-top access hatch placement. I did see the cast on herald evidence, but reasoned that this could have been an early, non-prototypical detail that Schader could have easily removed from the mold sometime in production just as I believe he added other details. But those "bumps" convinced me I was on the right trail.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > John, although incandescent lighting can make zamac castings appear a tarnished brass or bronze color, I was convinced early on this was not a Penn Line or Famoco as both of them have recesses cast between the side doors for the sand hatches; in addition Penn Line has cast on "nibs" for mounting the pantographs that are raised from the surface of the hoods; even if filed off, their remains would not be as prominant as "bumps" or extensions on the unit in question. Lastly, the window and vent area immediately next to the side windows has the "raw" look of a Schrader (or Stock) unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > Jim, after sleeping on it, I went downstairs a few minutes ago and checked my Schrader assembly booklet and Jim, the drawing shows the body casting with the raised Keystone on the side!!! So it must have been there in at least early Schrader production!!! I have five Schrader factory photographs used for promotion, (found in a Louis Hertz file at a "Lionel" show, and will try to locate those showing both Schrader models and a factory show display. Will try to find them after the funeral and see if they offer clues or confirmation.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > Jay W, John H, Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > I was going to pass trying to ID that GG-1 body but you have peaked my interest. Since the info given can't be verified and the pictures poor figuring it out will be hard. Add to that is it Bronze / Brass or what. Is it in fact HO. Could it be double O like I think it was called Maxon. Could it be a casting done by some one ?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > I took some of the better pictures and tried to enlarge them. I have a magnifying glass looking at these and I'm still not totally sure what it is but leaning towards Schrader for these reasons and details. Schrader had the little "bumps" as part of the casting where the pantographs go. George Stock did not. Those rectangle shapes on the top of the body are centered and only those appear centered on Schrader. Stocks were off center as there was a little circle detail at one end. I was ready to say SCHRADER 90% until I saw one little detail that is on Stock GG-bodies but not Schrader. There is a little casting shape on a picture of the side of this unknown GG-1 body between the windows in the exact middle.Schrader does NOT have this as it is smooth. On the other hand Stock has a little raised keystone shape cast on his body in that location.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > I have to drop it down to 75% thinking Schrader. All that said still unsure.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > > Big help. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9534
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: keystone or not
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Ray W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      I sent these two pictures, both 
sides on my Schrader GG-1 body where that keystone is on your bodies. Since you 
had mentioned the possibility that some modification of the body might have been 
done I have tried to see if that was possible and be noticed. I can't see 
anything that it was there in the first place. While this carries us a little 
further from the original item to ID this is an interesting point 
also.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       I have to be leaning to 
two different Schrader GG-1 bodies with a "minor" detail change that leaves no 
final answer YET.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9535
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: other Schrader GG-1
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Ray W, All interested,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          This is 
a picture of a Schrader GG-1 own by a man in Stamford New York. (Ray you know 
who) I'm sorry it turned side ways. I didn't take it that way. You can see no 
keystone on this and it sure doesn't look modified either (taken 
off).
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
The Pennsylvania pest.         
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9536
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: what is it
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Good Morning Jim,  I see you've posted many replies -- all food for more talks.  I'm starting here (right in the middle of your replies) as this is where I think I see one particular major characteristic of these shells which I believe is going to add to our discussions on Schrader IMMENSLEY (maybe, NO END), which is going to be a bunch of fun!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
You previously mentioned seeing a raised rib running front to back on nthe sides, about half-way up from the bottom.  I can't find that again with all the threads already in this subject, but I kind of remember your saying this.  In looking at the photos of this body again, poor as they are, I too saw this raised horizontal rib in one of the photos.  I now see you think think was an optical illusion, although I don't know why -- but I did see you magnified it.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Maybe you should re-think this.  Both of my Schrader GG-1's have this raised rib!  I now believe even stronger that the model on eBay is a Schrader.  From what you're saying, your's does not have this rib, as you seemed surprised to see it and now doubt seeing it in the photo.  Since your's does not have the raised keystone, let me ask you if you might have the Version I going by the gearing you pointed out; I'm guessing you may have the Version I and that may be where the changes took place when Schrader made the Version II.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
To further verify my GG-1's as Schraders, even though they are mint kits in original Schrader boxes (in case someone thinks that different models could have been stored in these boxes), I'd like to point out that my two identical kits came from two different and well respected sources, one with verification right from Albert E. Schrader.  This first one came from Hal Fletcher; you may remember him as the Northeastern U.S. sales representative for Varney who was the person whom I bought his complete Varney factory built display model collection from back in the ' 70's.  Accompanying Hal's Schrader GG-1 is a letter I have which came with the kit, address to Hal from Albert E. Schrader on his letterhead, enclosed in a Schrader company pre-printed (return address) envelope, in discussion with Hal about this GG-1 kit he sent to Hal.  (maybe Albert's letter is worth something? - LOL).
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
My second Schrader GG-1 came from George Horan -- I think you said you know him.  He's one of the guys who helped Dallas Mallerich with his Greenberg/Athearn Guide, along with Dave Doiron, Frank Brua, Roy Scott (and myself) and others.  George did the Greenberg/Lionel H0 book, and knows vintage H0 as well as any one of us.  On top of that, both kits came with the same identical decals, which I doubt was a coincidence.  So here we have another twist in the differences in Schrader GG-1's.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Looks like for whatever reason, Al Schrader did some extensive changes to his GG-1 bodies, but it was not just with adding the raised keystone.  As your's does not have this, I's say before even getting your reply, that you most likely have the Version I, produced before these modifications.  I don't think we really need to obtain the mystery engine on eBay to tell what it is.  Will try to get back here later, as I want to dig into the rest of this discussion; it's only getting more interesting, and I have more to add.  Ray Wetzel 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
(Jim, I sign my full name -- or Ray W. -- only because there are more than one Ray's on here -- to eliminate any confusion by other members)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Chris, Ray, Others
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>      First the tweaking you did made some improvements.The lighter pictures also help especially the side views. I know I had thought there was a raised rib running front to back on the side about half way from the bottom. Although you can slightly see it better in the one side view you lightened I now believe it is an optical illusion and not a detail.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>       As you can now see identifying some things not a perfect world. Unknown versions put out complicate things. I have now come to the conclusion that it is a Schrader GG-I body. Everything to me matches my engine, which I am sure is Schrader except for that raised keystone.  BUT since Ray W has two GG-1 engines by Schrader mint in boxes that have the raised Keystone I think we are dealing with two Schrader bodies with a small detail added or taken away depending which came first. While anything is possible I always say "never say never". It is a little hard to believe a change made for a run of 225 pieces but it happens.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Ray W    You mentioned that the possibility existed that my and other Schrader GG-1 bodies may have been modified by removing the keystone. I have looked real hard and close up but see no evidence of that. I think the close up picture of the area I sent will show an extremely good job if there was one there in the first place. Just like a gun that has the serial numbers removed but still can be "brought out" I see no vestige that there was anything to start with.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>        I'm convinced that we each have Schrader GG-1 engines but bodies with one little detail different  (due to a possible mold change) and that the item on Ebay is Schrader.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                                      Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   From: Chris B 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 6:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: what is it
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Before this thread I was completely ignorant of Stock and Schrader.  I'm happy I'm not bidding, this engine belongs with someone who can compare it with existing identified examples.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   I don't know what else I don't know, but I'm always ready to learn more from such careful discussion of key details.  If it helps any, I combined all the poor ebay photos into one shot, and did what I could in photoshop to improve legibility.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9537
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: what is it
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                   Hi Ray W,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       I'm glad I'm not the only 
one who saw what I thought was a rib (I'll call it). My Schrader GG-1 does not 
have it. I will have to look at other pictures I sent of other GG-1's which I 
hope you got. Did you open the attachment Chris B sent that he put all the 
photos of the item for sale together and tried to enhance them. The side view 
pictures lightened up and I am not sure if it is there. I did use a magnifying 
glass that really didn't help.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      I  enjoy these 
exchanges but dread trying to type longer messages one finger. I am totally at a 
lose as to what version, I or II , as far as the body. The drive differences are 
easy to tell but like you I'm sure mine is Schrader. Anything possible as to 
what changes were made and when but it still seems silly to me, if he did, 
why.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          I fully 
believe your engines are Schrader GG-1's. I'm honestly starting to think we are 
at a impasse as to what that Ebay item is, what versions of Schrader 
we each have, much like the discussions we had concerning Varney, Adams 
& Son and the brass/ bronze Vanderbilt tender. More information 
needed.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          Yes I 
know George Horan. He and Vince Rosa wrote the early Lionel HO book. A main 
section dealt with HObbyline which George collected heavily.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:24 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: what is it
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Good Morning Jim, I see you've posted many replies -- all food for more 
  talks. I'm starting here (right in the middle of your replies) as this is 
  where I think I see one particular major characteristic of these shells which 
  I believe is going to add to our discussions on Schrader IMMENSLEY (maybe, NO 
  END), which is going to be a bunch of fun!

                                                                                                                                                                                  You previously mentioned 
  seeing a raised rib running front to back on nthe sides, about half-way up 
  from the bottom. I can't find that again with all the threads already in this 
  subject, but I kind of remember your saying this. In looking at the photos of 
  this body again, poor as they are, I too saw this raised horizontal rib in one 
  of the photos. I now see you think think was an optical illusion, although I 
  don't know why -- but I did see you magnified it.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Maybe you should 
  re-think this. Both of my Schrader GG-1's have this raised rib! I now believe 
  even stronger that the model on eBay is a Schrader. From what you're saying, 
  your's does not have this rib, as you seemed surprised to see it and now doubt 
  seeing it in the photo. Since your's does not have the raised keystone, let me 
  ask you if you might have the Version I going by the gearing you pointed out; 
  I'm guessing you may have the Version I and that may be where the changes took 
  place when Schrader made the Version II.

                                                                                                                                                                                  To further verify my GG-1's as 
  Schraders, even though they are mint kits in original Schrader boxes (in case 
  someone thinks that different models could have been stored in these boxes), 
  I'd like to point out that my two identical kits came from two different and 
  well respected sources, one with verification right from Albert E. Schrader. 
  This first one came from Hal Fletcher; you may remember him as the 
  Northeastern U.S. sales representative for Varney who was the person whom I 
  bought his complete Varney factory built display model collection from back in 
  the ' 70's. Accompanying Hal's Schrader GG-1 is a letter I have which came 
  with the kit, address to Hal from Albert E. Schrader on his letterhead, 
  enclosed in a Schrader company pre-printed (return address) envelope, in 
  discussion with Hal about this GG-1 kit he sent to Hal. (maybe Albert's letter 
  is worth something? - LOL).

                                                                                                                                                                                  My second Schrader GG-1 came from George 
  Horan -- I think you said you know him. He's one of the guys who helped Dallas 
  Mallerich with his Greenberg/Athearn Guide, along with Dave Doiron, Frank 
  Brua, Roy Scott (and myself) and others. George did the Greenberg/Lionel H0 
  book, and knows vintage H0 as well as any one of us. On top of that, both kits 
  came with the same identical decals, which I doubt was a coincidence. So here 
  we have another twist in the differences in Schrader GG-1's.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Looks like 
  for whatever reason, Al Schrader did some extensive changes to his GG-1 
  bodies, but it was not just with adding the raised keystone. As your's does 
  not have this, I's say before even getting your reply, that you most likely 
  have the Version I, produced before these modifications. I don't think we 
  really need to obtain the mystery engine on eBay to tell what it is. Will try 
  to get back here later, as I want to dig into the rest of this discussion; 
  it's only getting more interesting, and I have more to add. Ray Wetzel 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  (Jim, I sign my full name -- or Ray W. -- only because there are more than 
  one Ray's on here -- to eliminate any confusion by other members)

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- 
  In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Chris, Ray, 
  Others
                                                                                                                                                                                  > First the tweaking you did made some improvements. The 
  lighter pictures also help especially the side views. I know I had thought 
  there was a raised rib running front to back on the side about half way from 
  the bottom. Although you can slightly see it better in the one side view you 
  lightened I now believe it is an optical illusion and not a detail.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > As you can now see identifying some things not a perfect world. 
  Unknown versions put out complicate things. I have now come to the conclusion 
  that it is a Schrader GG-I body. Everything to me matches my engine, which I 
  am sure is Schrader except for that raised keystone. BUT since Ray W has two 
  GG-1 engines by Schrader mint in boxes that have the raised Keystone I think 
  we are dealing with two Schrader bodies with a small detail added or taken 
  away depending which came first. While anything is possible I always say 
  "never say never". It is a little hard to believe a change made for a run of 
  225 pieces but it happens.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Ray W You mentioned that the 
  possibility existed that my and other Schrader GG-1 bodies may have been 
  modified by removing the keystone. I have looked real hard and close up but 
  see no evidence of that. I think the close up picture of the area I sent will 
  show an extremely good job if there was one there in the first place. Just 
  like a gun that has the serial numbers removed but still can be "brought out" 
  I see no vestige that there was anything to start with.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I'm 
  convinced that we each have Schrader GG-1 engines but bodies with one little 
  detail different (due to a possible mold change) and that the item on Ebay is 
  Schrader.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  From: Chris B 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 6:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: Re: 
  [vintageHO] Re: what is it
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Before this 
  thread I was completely ignorant of Stock and Schrader. I'm happy I'm not 
  bidding, this engine belongs with someone who can compare it with existing 
  identified examples. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I don't know what else I don't know, 
  but I'm always ready to learn more from such careful discussion of key 
  details. If it helps any, I combined all the poor ebay photos into one shot, 
  and did what I could in photoshop to improve legibility. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Chris 
  B.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9538
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: another loco at eBay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  http://cgi.ebay.com/HO-BRASS-2-10-4-CUSTOM-ENGINE-TENDER_W0QQitemZ200326968817
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
anybody out there who knows what this is?  I think I have seen this type 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
before... but cant remember where.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9539
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Castor Plastics / Lehigh Models Connection - The Oak Valley Saga Con
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  By now, its evident I'm interested in those vintage PRR electric locomotive models manufactured by anyone: Trackside Specialties, International (inporter), Penn Line, Schrader, Geo. Stock, Famoco and Castor.  I had always assumed from their ads that Castor Plastic's B-1 "rat" switcher was their only mark in HO scale model railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  About two weeks ago, I posted photos of the three cars in my collection that were lettered for Oak Valley that my friend Randy L. in Wisconsin had found and several of you helped identify their builder, Gerard F. Engles.    Bill deF. identified it first, I believe.  Spurred on by that identification, my buddy Randy went back to the shop and found remains of two more Oak Valley cars, including most of the parts for a 40' boxcar and flat car and shipped them east with a consist of other vintage cars on the "Red Ball" express.   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  The box car sides were again very nicely lettered for Oak Valley with the acorn herald.  As I looked over its remains, having both sides, one with the door and one side missing the door and one door track, have the diecast metal underframe-floor with first class Micro-Motive trucks, wood sub-floor, and the Bakelite plastic roof (missing the pair of Bakelite ends) I noticed the "LEHIGH" name cast into the underside of the roof.  But I also noticed some smaller lettering below it.  Bringing it into the light, it says in tiny letters: "MOLDED BY CASTOR PLASTICS"  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Not an earth shattering discovery, but an interesting small discovery of  two small manufacturers working together.  It also made me wonder if the Castor Plastic's B-1 switcher, tagged the first plastic HO scale locomotive, was also made of Bakelite Plastic?  I checked our groups archives and see a lucky few of you have them.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Meanwhile, does anyone have an extra pair of Lehigh Models bakelite boxcar ends, and a door and track? Previously used parts or even a junk car is ok.  I'll trade for a new old stock Lehigh Models cast underframe or have many other vintage parts as well - what do you need?  Let me know by separate email.  Would be nice to restore this Oak Valley / Lehigh Models boxcar the right way, if possible, even if it takes a bit longer to find the missing parts.  (The ends are the most important parts). 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9540
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: another loco at eBay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Gerold, I'll take a stab that it is based on a Varney Northern boiler and cab with some details altered; the plastic tender looks to be a Varney Long Distance Tender; the mechanism, I have no quick answer! Jay W.  "Ps. Midwinter" needs to get a better camera!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://cgi.ebay.com/HO-BRASS-2-10-4-CUSTOM-ENGINE-TENDER_W0QQitemZ200326968817
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> anybody out there who knows what this is?  I think I have seen this type 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> before... but cant remember where.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9541
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: another loco at eBay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


  
  

 
The tender is from a Hobbyline 2-8-4 NKP Berk.  You are probably
right about the loco being a Varney Northern boiler.  The lead truck is
also Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
===================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
the_plainsman wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Gerold, I'll take a stab that it is based on a Varney Northern
boiler and cab with some details altered; the plastic tender looks to
be a Varney Long Distance Tender; the mechanism, I have no quick
answer! Jay W. "Ps. Midwinter" needs to get a better camera!
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://cgi.ebay. com/HO-BRASS- 2-10-4-CUSTOM- ENGINE-TENDER_ W0QQitemZ2003269 68817
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> anybody out there who knows what this is? I think I have seen this
type 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> before... but cant remember where.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9542
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: another loco at eBay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I think the boiler and mechanism including both pilot and trailing trucks is Varney. I do not recognizes the tender. It may be plastic, I have no idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2009 7:43:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: another loco at eBay

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  The tender is from a Hobbyline 2-8-4 NKP Berk.  You are probably right about the loco being a Varney Northern boiler.  The lead truck is also Varney.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                  ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ===

                                                                                                                                                                                  the_plainsman wrote: 

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Gerold, I'll take a stab that it is based on a Varney Northern boiler and cab with some details altered; the plastic tender looks to be a Varney Long Distance Tender; the mechanism, I have no quick answer! Jay W. "Ps. Midwinter" needs to get a better camera!

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://cgi.ebay. com/HO-BRASS- 2-10-4-CUSTOM- ENGINE-TENDER_ W0QQitemZ2003269 68817
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > anybody out there who knows what this is? I think I have seen this type 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > before... but cant remember where.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
 Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  >


                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9543
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: another loco at eBay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Don S., I took another look and though it is hard to tell at first glance from the fuzzy photos, I can make out that the tender collar is curved inward and you are right. In fact a collar edge shows in the cab close-up, but I discounted it as a stray insulated wire! Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> /The tender is from a Hobbyline 2-8-4 NKP Berk.  You are probably right 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> about the loco being a Varney Northern boiler.  The lead truck is also 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ===================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> /
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Hi Gerold, I'll take a stab that it is based on a Varney Northern 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > boiler and cab with some details altered; the plastic tender looks to 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > be a Varney Long Distance Tender; the mechanism, I have no quick 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > answer! Jay W. "Ps. Midwinter" needs to get a better camera!
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Gerold Eckl <corv8@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/HO-BRASS-2-10-4-CUSTOM-ENGINE-TENDER_W0QQitemZ200326968817 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > <http://cgi.ebay.com/HO-BRASS-2-10-4-CUSTOM-ENGINE-TENDER_W0QQitemZ200326968817>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > anybody out there who knows what this is? I think I have seen this type
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > before... but cant remember where.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9544
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 4/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Castor Plastics / Lehigh Models Connection - The Oak Valley S...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay W:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Add me to the list of guys who has a fully functional, and working Castor
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Plastics B-1. I have had this for many years now....picked it up at a train 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
show in Florida for $1. The seller didn't know what it was.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I run it every now and then. Seems to be made of hard plastic rather than
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Bakelite. Mine is black and lettered "Pennsylvania" with a single brass
                                                                                                                                                                                  
pantograph.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave F
                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  **************
                                                                                                                                                                                  New Deals on Dell Netbooks – Now starting at $299 (A HREF=http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219939010x1201342897/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B213771626%3B35379597%3Bw)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9545
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Castor B-1 bodies
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


  
  

 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Not an earth shattering discovery, but an interesting small
discovery of  two small manufacturers working together.  It also made
me wonder if the Castor Plastic's B-1 switcher, tagged the first
plastic HO scale locomotive, was also made of Bakelite Plastic?  I
checked our groups archives and see a lucky few of you have them.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
As I posted earlier, I have two NOS B-1 bodies - dont think thats
bakelite, how can I identify this for sure?  Bodies are glued together
from five parts, one part that looks like a frame end is attached to
the inside. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Have dug them out and shot two pictures. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9546
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: another loco at eBay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   > Hi Gerold, I'll take a stab that it is based on a Varney Northern boiler and cab with some details altered; the plastic tender looks to be a Varney Long Distance Tender; the mechanism, I have no quick answer! Jay W.  "Ps. Midwinter" needs to get a better camera!
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Just found a Northern that looks similar ... is THIS a Varney Northern?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170319285223
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9547
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: arney 4-8-4
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                            I would say 
the the item on Ebay is a Varney 4-8-4 that has been modified and has added 
detail (very nicely done) from the original. I have sent these pictures of  
2 Varney Northern versions as they came so you can compare. 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           
Picture 1      An assembled Varney 
4-8-4 Northern with rigid frame. This 
usually came with an open frame. Mine came with a Varney V-3 
motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                            Picture 
2     A  Varney 4-8-4 Super Northern still in kit form 
and original in two boxes. This has the Varney V-2 motor and the floating 
driver
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                               You 
can be the judge if the Ebay item started as a Varney Northern.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9548
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Varney
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Sorry I missed typing the V in Varney in the 
subject heading of my first Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9549
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Castor B-1 bodies
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I read of your luck of having two bodies in the archived posts (made not  long before I signed on here).  Having a matched pair is great as originally the first series of B-1's were  drawbar linked in pairs, then the PRR later ordered one or two series as singles and split the original pairs as well.  That is why the frames and bodies are a bit asymetrical, front to back. (Now you "just" have to find the mechanisms!)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  How to tell if its Bakelite? Bakelite, being the oldest of plastics, is "thermoset" has a hard surface, was used for electronics and telephone cases, table radios and jewelry in the 1930's and 1940's  and quote "sometimes can emit a formaldehyde type odor when warmed by warm either rubbing or warm water, not boiling. If you smell a smell that is medicinal like an old bandaid, medicine chest smell, that is the formaldehyde smell of old authentic bakelite.  You can sometimes get the smell by rubbing your finger quickly across the surface and get the smell from the heat of the friction formed too.  It won't work on all pieces but once you smell that distinct smell,  you will never forget it. "  eBay has an much more extensive guide that I paraphrased from here, and there are other tests as well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  http://reviews.ebay.com/HOW-TO-TEST-FOR-BAKELITE-PLASTIC_W0QQugidZ10000000000099629?ssPageName=BUYGD:CAT:-1:LISTINGS:1
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Not an earth shattering discovery, but an interesting small discovery 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > of two small manufacturers working together. It also made me wonder 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > if the Castor Plastic's B-1 switcher, tagged the first plastic HO 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > scale locomotive, was also made of Bakelite Plastic? I checked our 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > groups archives and see a lucky few of you have them.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > As I posted earlier, I have two NOS B-1 bodies - dont think thats 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > bakelite, how can I identify this for sure? Bodies are glued together 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > from five parts, one part that looks like a frame end is attached to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > inside.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Have dug them out and shot two pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9550
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: another loco at eBay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Gerold, the Varney Northern you spotted has had additional details added and altered, most notably the substitution of a huge sand dome/box on top of the boiler and the Elesco feedwater heater on the nose, both of which alter it's appeanace considerably from the original Varney!  Whoever modifyed it did a nice job and seems to follow a prototype I dimly remember.  Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Hi Gerold, I'll take a stab that it is based on a Varney Northern boiler and cab with some details altered; the plastic tender looks to be a Varney Long Distance Tender; the mechanism, I have no quick answer! Jay W.  "Ps. Midwinter" needs to get a better camera!
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Just found a Northern that looks similar ... is THIS a Varney Northern?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170319285223
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9551
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Castor Plastics / Lehigh Models Connection - The Oak Valley S...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dave F, I like hearing about those "dollar specials" and that can be a inspiration for others to keep looking for vintage items, particularly if they are from parts of the country where there are shows within easy distance.  Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, WK2SHR@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay W:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Add me to the list of guys who has a fully functional, and working Castor
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Plastics B-1. I have had this for many years now....picked it up at a train 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> show in Florida for $1. The seller didn't know what it was.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I run it every now and then. Seems to be made of hard plastic rather than
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Bakelite. Mine is black and lettered "Pennsylvania" with a single brass
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> pantograph.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dave F
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> **************
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> New Deals on Dell Netbooks â€" Now starting at $299 (A 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> HREF=http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219939010x1201342897/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fa
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> d.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B213771626%3B35379597%3Bw)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9552
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Castor Plastics / Lehigh Models Connection - The Oak Valley S...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave, Nice addition to the collection!  Great find too for the price of a cup of coffee.  Too bad more of these sellers don't know what they have (LOL).  Just wanted to point out that Bakelite IS a hard plastic, very hard in fact -- to a fault; it could be more brittle than any other plastic although being hard it was strong (but could shatter or chip on impact).  I notice that when used for at least those engines I'm familiar with, such as Aristo-Craft's 4-4-2 Hiawatha which I have, it was cast as being quite thick (3/16" - 1/4" or so).  As we know, Varney used this plastic in a couple of their pre-War freight cars.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, WK2SHR@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay W:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Add me to the list of guys who has a fully functional, and working Castor
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Plastics B-1. I have had this for many years now....picked it up at a train 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> show in Florida for $1. The seller didn't know what it was.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I run it every now and then. Seems to be made of hard plastic rather than
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Bakelite. Mine is black and lettered "Pennsylvania" with a single brass
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> pantograph.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dave F
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> **************
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> New Deals on Dell Netbooks â€" Now starting at $299 (A 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> HREF=http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219939010x1201342897/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fa
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> d.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B213771626%3B35379597%3Bw)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9553
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Guys.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  It seems as if I have bearing trouble on one of my motors.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  It runs, but after about 2-3 minutes pf running, it seems to slow to a crawl, heat up and then lock up. I let it cool and it starts the cycle all over. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I oiled it heavily, but I have not taken it apart. Initially, it was a little tough to get started (stiff). I have not dared take it apart yet for fear of not being able to put it back together. Why, I do not know, I have managed to tear apart an N scale articulated motor, custom make a brush and put it back together. Maybe the value and rarity of the motor is the reason that I am seeking advice first.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Are there new bearings I can get for this motor?  Is there a way to take it apart and restore the bearings as they are? I am assuming here that the oil I have applied (thin labell #4) has not reached the bearings. It seems to heat up at the rear more than the body of the die-casting.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Any help would be great. I know someone either here or on yardbird rebuilt a consolidation with some great information and photos. I thought they had take the motor apart, but I could not find any info in my saved emails.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Oh well.. back to work and I anxiously await the replies..
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks in advance..
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean

                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9554
						From: Al
						Date: 4/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Hobbyline
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Yes I know George Horan. He and Vince Rosa wrote the early Lionel HO book. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
A main section dealt with HObbyline which George collected heavily.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 ... lurker post here. ( who comes out of his hole from time to time, lol ) 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
...
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 I am  quite interested in Hobbyline myself and have a few ( nowhere near 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the collections of opthers on here, but give me time  :) ..
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 Would be interested in findingthis book if it had the info Jim mentions, do 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
you have other info or comments ?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 ~ AL
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9555
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: another loco at eBay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold,  This is definitely a Varney Northern boiler, no two ways about it, albeit nicely modified (you'd have to decide if you'd want a collector's item that wasn't quite original).  While the photos are a bit fuzzy, I'd say this plastic tender is a Mantua.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
As the only photo of the underside is not a close-up (and not showing much detail), I can't tell if it's an extended Varney sprung frame (using two sets of frame sides) for the Super motor, some other manufacturer's brass frame or a scratchbuild frame, but we can see it's not an extended Varney rigid channel frame.  The splice, if it isn't one-piece, might be where that white patch appears near the 2nd set of drivers.  We can see though, by the exposed drive gear, that it does not have the V-2.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
The frame bearing plate (doesn't look like Varney) can be seen as being modified too, as there's a new drive gear slot milled into it.  The fuzzy and distant photos also do not allow for a good look at the main rods; they may be one-piece (scratch built?) as appears to me, or they may consist of several jointed sections as on some Varney's.  If this does have an extended frame, which you'd have to ask about, unless it was machined with much precision with the distance of the added 5th driver's (set) holes in the side rods matching the axle distance between the original four-coupled set of drivers & the newly added 5th driver (set), there could be problems in binding.  Ask about all of this (the frame manufacturer if made for five-coupled drivers, a possible extended frame to allow for the 5th set of drivers and how well it runs if the frame has been extended).   Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://cgi.ebay.com/HO-BRASS-2-10-4-CUSTOM-ENGINE-TENDER_W0QQitemZ200326968817
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> anybody out there who knows what this is?  I think I have seen this type 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> before... but cant remember where.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9556
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Sean,  Yes, if you can locate a separate bearing for the 1596-A (V-2 Super Motor), it is part number 1597 -- but looks to come as part of the sub-sub assembly 1675C Armature and Ball Bearing Assembly (which includes the 1675 Armature/Armature Shaft and 1372 Bearing Bushing) if that can be obtained -- or the sub-assembly 1688A which included the above 1675A plus the 1012 Oilless Bearing (actually, a bushing), 1680 Lubricating Felt Washer, two 1363 Oilless Bearing Sockets, 1374 Bearing Spring (long) and the 1227 Worm Gear (80P).  I'm presuming that you'll have to buy it included as part of one of these sub-assemblies, as Varney warns: "Under no circumstances should you attempt to remove the ball bearing, No. 1597, from the shaft."  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
The Ball Bearing is made up of a number of small ball bearings assembled in an inner and outer bearing race -- similar to what you would find on an automobile's rear axle.  Unless it's really shot, it should not come apart as a couple of individual small bearing flying in all directions if you were to disassemble the 1370 Motor Frame and 1583 Magnet and 1358 Brush Housing from the Armature and Ball Bearing Assembly.  It would seem as though you would need to, to at least lubricate this Ball Bearing as it sits inside of the Motor Frame between the Armature and the Worm Gear and there's no way to get any lubrication to it otherwise.  If you add oil to the shaft at the very top (near the brushes) you are only getting oil to the commutator.  Varney also warns: "DO NOT get oil on the armature or commutator." 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
The complete care and cleaning directions can be found in the Varney "1001 Genuine H0 Loco & Car Parts" book (which shows an exploded view of the V-2), which I'd guess you probably have -- if not, I'll mail you that page.  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Guys.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> It seems as if I have bearing trouble on one of my motors.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> It runs, but after about 2-3 minutes pf running, it seems to slow to a crawl, heat up and then lock up. I let it cool and it starts the cycle all over. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I oiled it heavily, but I have not taken it apart. Initially, it was a little tough to get started (stiff). I have not dared take it apart yet for fear of not being able to put it back together. Why, I do not know, I have managed to tear apart an N scale articulated motor, custom make a brush and put it back together. Maybe the value and rarity of the motor is the reason that I am seeking advice first.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Are there new bearings I can get for this motor?  Is there a way to take it apart and restore the bearings as they are? I am assuming here that the oil I have applied (thin labell #4) has not reached the bearings. It seems to heat up at the rear more than the body of the die-casting.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Any help would be great. I know someone either here or on yardbird rebuilt a consolidation with some great information and photos. I thought they had take the motor apart, but I could not find any info in my saved emails.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Oh well.. back to work and I anxiously await the replies..
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Thanks in advance..
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9557
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Hobbyline
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Al,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         The 
book,Greenberg's guide to Lionel Trains, contains 
a chapter entitled  From HObbyline to Lionel 1955 -1966  most of it 
written by George Horan. The book came out in 1986 ? and is OOP as far as I 
know. Greenberg might have copies and maybe some stores selling HO train books. 
You might even see one pop up on Ebay. There is a lot more history about 
HObbyline (and it should be written HObbyline not just Hobbyline). It was a 
company created by John English who at first produced metal items but when 
plastic became the in thing HObbyline was born. There is some discussion if John 
English was the head of HObbyline or his name was used. No matter. HObbyline had 
a number of items that were plastic copies of his metal HO line plus he 
added some other things including static plastic models that were very detailed 
and still sought today. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                            This weekend I had 
planned to start sending pictures for an album of John English products to be 
followed up by the HObbyline plastic. Along with pictures I will be adding a 
short narrative of what the picture is. If you can't wait I can send you 
some specific (you ask I try to answer) info now and I'm sure there are others 
in this group that can help and will reply.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           Good luck with your 
collecting.      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  Al 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 9:59 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbyline
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Yes I know George Horan. He and Vince Rosa wrote the early Lionel HO book. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  A main section dealt with HObbyline which George collected heavily.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim 
  H

                                                                                                                                                                                  ... lurker post here. ( who comes out of his hole from time to time, 
  lol ) 
                                                                                                                                                                                  ...

                                                                                                                                                                                  I am quite interested in Hobbyline myself and have a few 
  ( nowhere near 
                                                                                                                                                                                  the collections of opthers on here, but give me time :) 
  ..

                                                                                                                                                                                  Would be interested in findingthis book if it had the info Jim 
  mentions, do 
                                                                                                                                                                                  you have other info or comments ?

                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                  ~ 
  AL

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9558
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      There was a paper put out by 
Varney that shows you how to take apart the V-2 motor to service because it was 
recommended every so often to do to keep at top shape and a view of all the 
parts (might be hard to just find bearings if that is the problem). 
This paper of Varney tells you how to assemble this motor and goes into 
detail how to properly assemble). Your problem may very well stem from assembled 
wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      I will gladly take a picture 
(will take and send in about ten minute)of these plans (I have no scanner). But 
I am pretty sure I sent a copy to HOseeker and it is on his site. If they don't 
come out good I will copy and send to you.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 9:49 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Varney V-2 Motor 
  help needed - it is gaulding up!
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Guys.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  It seems as if I have bearing trouble on one of my motors.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  It runs, but after about 2-3 minutes pf running, it seems to slow to a 
  crawl, heat up and then lock up. I let it cool and it starts the cycle all 
  over. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  I oiled it heavily, but I have not taken it apart. Initially, it was a 
  little tough to get started (stiff). I have not dared take it apart yet for 
  fear of not being able to put it back together. Why, I do not know, I 
  have managed to tear apart an N scale articulated motor, custom make a brush 
  and put it back together. Maybe the value and rarity of the motor is the 
  reason that I am seeking advice first.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Are there new bearings I can get for this motor?  Is there a way to 
  take it apart and restore the bearings as they are? I am assuming here that 
  the oil I have applied (thin labell #4) has not reached the bearings. It seems 
  to heat up at the rear more than the body of the die-casting.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Any help would be great. I know someone either here or on yardbird rebuilt 
  a consolidation with some great information and photos. I thought they had 
  take the motor apart, but I could not find any info in my saved emails.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Oh well.. back to work and I anxiously await the replies..
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks in advance..
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9559
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: V-2 Motor
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   I sent these pictures of the Varney V-2 sheet 
but I don't think they help.I don't have a scanner where you could enlarge this. 
Check HOseeker. If no luck I'll send you a copy.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9560
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: V-3 motor paper
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      I did send this paper to 
HOseeker. He has it in the Varney files and you can pull it up and print it 
out.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9561
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 4/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Hobbyline
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  There is a John English-Hobbyline group, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnEnglish-Hobbyline/
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Roger Aultman
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 10:18 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hobbyline
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Al,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         The 
  book,Greenberg' s guide to Lionel Trains, 
  contains a chapter entitled  From HObbyline to Lionel 1955 -1966  
  most of it written by George Horan. The book came out in 1986 ? and is OOP as 
  far as I know. Greenberg might have copies and maybe some stores selling HO 
  train books. You might even see one pop up on Ebay. There is a lot more 
  history about HObbyline (and it should be written HObbyline not just 
  Hobbyline). It was a company created by John English who at first produced 
  metal items but when plastic became the in thing HObbyline was born. There is 
  some discussion if John English was the head of HObbyline or his name was 
  used. No matter. HObbyline had a number of items that were plastic copies of 
  his metal HO line plus he added some other things including static 
  plastic models that were very detailed and still sought 
  today. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            This weekend I 
  had planned to start sending pictures for an album of John English products to 
  be followed up by the HObbyline plastic. Along with pictures I will be adding 
  a short narrative of what the picture is. If you can't wait I can send 
  you some specific (you ask I try to answer) info now and I'm sure there are 
  others in this group that can help and will reply.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Good luck with 
  your collecting.      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Al 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 9:59 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbyline
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Yes I know George Horan. He and Vince Rosa wrote the early Lionel HO 
    book. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  A main section dealt with HObbyline which George collected 
    heavily.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                  ... lurker post here. ( who comes out of his hole 
    from time to time, lol ) 
                                                                                                                                                                                  ...

                                                                                                                                                                                  I am quite interested in Hobbyline 
    myself and have a few ( nowhere near 
                                                                                                                                                                                  the collections of opthers on here, 
    but give me time :) ..

                                                                                                                                                                                  Would be interested in findingthis book if it 
    had the info Jim mentions, do 
                                                                                                                                                                                  you have other info or comments 
    ?

                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                  ~ 
  AL

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9562
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: V-3 motor paper
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks Jim.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I will do that.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Man, I am not sure if I want to take that job on though. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I guess... what do I have to lose? If I do not do it, I will have a super that does not have a good motor.  If I do try and do not succeed, I am in the same boat as not having tried, but if I do succeed, then all is good, I suppose.. Maybe I will just bag it for now as needing work and put it with the rest of my Varneys.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I have too many projects.. besides, this is on my remaining Super Pacific. It needs valve gear work anyway.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks Jim and Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 2:02:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] V-3 motor paper

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      I did send this paper to HOseeker. He has it in the Varney files and you can pull it up and print it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9563
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: V-3 motor paper
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Your choice.  What ever I can do to help. I 
can't believe that I wrote V-3 in the Subject heading and we are talking about 
the V-2 motor.  PLEASE anyone that noticed I made a boo boo.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 2:38 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] V-3 motor 
  paper
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks Jim.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  I will do that.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Man, I am not sure if I want to take that job on though. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  I guess... what do I have to lose? If I do not do it, I will 
  have a super that does not have a good motor.  If I do try and do not 
  succeed, I am in the same boat as not having tried, but if I do succeed, 
  then all is good, I suppose.. Maybe I will just bag it for now as needing work 
  and put it with the rest of my Varneys.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  I have too many projects.. besides, this is on my remaining Super 
  Pacific. It needs valve gear work anyway.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks Jim and Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: jim heckard 
  <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 2:02:21 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] V-3 
  motor paper

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I did send this paper to 
  HOseeker. He has it in the Varney files and you can pull it up and print 
  it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
  Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9564
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Castor Plastics / Lehigh Models Connection - The Oak Vall...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Ray:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for the note on the B-1 and the Bakelite plastic properties. Didn't know
                                                                                                                                                                                  
that.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Appreciate the tip!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave F
                                                                                                                                                                                  



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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9565
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Castor B-1 bodies
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I read of your luck of having two bodies in the archived posts (made 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> not  long before I signed on here).  Having a matched pair is great as 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> originally the first series of B-1's were  drawbar linked in pairs, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> then the PRR later ordered one or two series as singles and split the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> original pairs as well.  That is why the frames and bodies are a bit 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> asymetrical, front to back. (Now you "just" have to find the mechanisms!)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have two complete Famoco Rats...  that s enough rodents for now. 8-)  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Of course I could make resin duplicates from the Famoco sideframes and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
build a substitute drive but life is to short for such endeavors... 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
maybe I will do some freelance converion with them some day.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  You can sometimes get the smell by rubbing your finger quickly across 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the surface and get the smell from the heat of the friction formed 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> too.  It won't work on all pieces but once you smell that distinct 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> smell,  you will never forget it. "  eBay has an much more extensive 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> guide that I paraphrased from here, and there are other tests as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Rubbed the body until it was shiny I also tried the hot water test - no 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
smell. But maybe the formaldehyde has long disappeared into the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
atmosphere?   Living in Austria, I have no access to the various 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
cleaners mentioned on the ebay page mentioned....
                                                                                                                                                                                  
One of the bodies has rather loose glue joints, so one of the sides is 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
no longer connected to the roof... it can be bent easily , this would 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
indicate it might something else as I understand bakelite is stiff and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
brittle?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9566
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: John English Metal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                               
 Over the next few days, with the help of Lennard S, I will be sending 
pictures of John English metal HO items. After that is done I will send 
HObbyline (John English plastic) so that albums can be created of parts of my 
vintage collection. I will add a little narrative to the pictures but it will be 
impossible to add "all the facts". It is my hope that members could find the 
pictures useful and add to information on  HOseeker's site.  Again a 
picture worth a thousand words.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     The first group of pictures are some 
John English items that many don't know about. While these came before the 
change to Hobbyline  they were never made in plastic. Instead they were 
purchased by Penn Line and became major parts of their line.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  First two pictures are a three piece cast set 
including a boiler,frame and steam chest. They were used to create a heavy 
Consolidation and the instructions told you how to complete one. As you can see 
from the second picture the red box was labeled John English. As I said above 
this was sold to Penn Lie and became the basis for the PL 2-8-0 
Consolidation.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Last three pictures are of a tender first produced 
by John English and again later used as a major Penn Line item. You can see by 
the plans first sold  by John English and the sticker on the end of the red 
box stating so. I have sent a picture of the trucks on this tender made by John 
English also. They are slightly different then what Penn Line used 
later.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     I sent these pictures first as I 
consider them "rare" as what I feel the oddest and most unknown items made by 
John English.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9567
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Castor B-1 bodies
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I looked closer at the two photos you sent yesterday and I believe you are right, not likely Bakelite, as you noted your Castor models sides flex a bit which is atypical of Bakelite.  In addition, in your new photos, to me they don't have the "polished, hard" look of Bakelite, either.  Castor Platics, as befits their name, was likely adept at working with all types of 1940's era plastics.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Although a bit more problematic for you in Austria, perhaps, coming up with a B-1 mechanism not too difficult as there are spare Penn Line/Varney GG-1's still around. The driver diameter and spacing is very close.  As did Trackside Industries with their B-1 in the mid 1960's, the source is one of the GG-1's powered trucks and cutting off the pilot truck extention wth a hacksaw.  A flat sheet metal floor, with cutout "window" for the gears can be installed bewteen motor and metal frame.  In the case of the Castor shell, bosses could be installed in each corner for screw attachment.  One could then attach the cast resin sideframes reproductions in place of the Penn Line GG-1 sideframes.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Still a project, but not as tough as building from scratch. The nice part: while not a perfect restoration, one would be accomplishing it with vintage parts as a 1950's modeler might. That smooth running half of a GG-1 mechanism in a B-1 will pull about 7-8 free running model freight cars with little complaint, as do the Trackside Industries models.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I read of your luck of having two bodies in the archived posts (made 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > not  long before I signed on here).  Having a matched pair is great as 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > originally the first series of B-1's were  drawbar linked in pairs, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > then the PRR later ordered one or two series as singles and split the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > original pairs as well.  That is why the frames and bodies are a bit 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > asymetrical, front to back. (Now you "just" have to find the mechanisms!)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have two complete Famoco Rats...  that s enough rodents for now. 8-)  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Of course I could make resin duplicates from the Famoco sideframes and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> build a substitute drive but life is to short for such endeavors... 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> maybe I will do some freelance converion with them some day.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  You can sometimes get the smell by rubbing your finger quickly across 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > the surface and get the smell from the heat of the friction formed 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > too.  It won't work on all pieces but once you smell that distinct 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > smell,  you will never forget it. "  eBay has an much more extensive 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > guide that I paraphrased from here, and there are other tests as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Rubbed the body until it was shiny I also tried the hot water test - no 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> smell. But maybe the formaldehyde has long disappeared into the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> atmosphere?   Living in Austria, I have no access to the various 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> cleaners mentioned on the ebay page mentioned....
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> One of the bodies has rather loose glue joints, so one of the sides is 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> no longer connected to the roof... it can be bent easily , this would 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> indicate it might something else as I understand bakelite is stiff and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> brittle?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9568
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Castor B-1 bodies
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           
Two complete rodents by Castor ?? You know I am looking to purchase one for my 
collection. Any chance you want to lesson the amount of "RATS" running around 
contact me off line.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 8:18 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Castor B-1 
  bodies
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I read of 
  your luck of having two bodies in the archived posts (made 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > not long 
  before I signed on here). Having a matched pair is great as 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  originally the first series of B-1's were drawbar linked in pairs, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  then the PRR later ordered one or two series as singles and split the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  original pairs as well. That is why the frames and bodies are a bit 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  asymetrical, front to back. (Now you "just" have to find the 
  mechanisms!)
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay,

                                                                                                                                                                                  I have two complete Famoco Rats... that s 
  enough rodents for now. 8-) 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Of course I could make resin duplicates from 
  the Famoco sideframes and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  build a substitute drive but life is to short 
  for such endeavors... 
                                                                                                                                                                                  maybe I will do some freelance converion with them 
  some day.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > You can sometimes get the smell by rubbing your 
  finger quickly across 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > the surface and get the smell from the heat of 
  the friction formed 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > too. It won't work on all pieces but once you 
  smell that distinct 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > smell, you will never forget it. " eBay has an 
  much more extensive 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > guide that I paraphrased from here, and there are 
  other tests as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  Rubbed the body until it was shiny I also 
  tried the hot water test - no 
                                                                                                                                                                                  smell. But maybe the formaldehyde has long 
  disappeared into the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  atmosphere? Living in Austria, I have no access to 
  the various 
                                                                                                                                                                                  cleaners mentioned on the ebay page mentioned... .
                                                                                                                                                                                  One 
  of the bodies has rather loose glue joints, so one of the sides is 
                                                                                                                                                                                  no 
  longer connected to the roof... it can be bent easily , this would 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  indicate it might something else as I understand bakelite is stiff and 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  brittle?

                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9569
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H. (and All),
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for providing us with album photos of the three different versions of the Penn Line Whitcomb yesterday. Neat little locomotives, at least one Class 1 RR, Susquehanna, used them at dockside in the 1950's and they are sought out by today's scale modelers as well. For anyone wanting to paint them in authentic RR colors, Prime Mover Decals has the right lettering for the NYS&W's snappy maroon and gray paint scheme.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim, do you have the diecast Whitcomb imported by Pacific Fast Mail, PFM?  D. Spanagel in the Guide to Varney noted that Lewis English traveled to Varney plant in Miami in the 1960's looking for the Penn Line Whitcomb dies (among others), with no luck (page 22).  But by then, Jim Ryan's PFM had already advertised their Whitcomb version, and I always believed that PFM acquired the P.L. dies from Kramer of Varney.  Besides the obvious identical appearance, the PFM full page introductory ad had a view of the inside of the body shell casting, and looking closely, some of the Penn Line lettering even shows!  I always wondered why no one seemed to pick up on that.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
PFM's version also reverted back to the original detailing, removing some of the cast on handrails and such.  Dies are very expensive, and PFM and their Japanese builder likely could not have afforded to create heavy steel multi-part dies for zamac casting a few hundred or even a thousand models sold at minimal price, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Curiously, PFF also advertised their B&O Docksider at the same time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
D. Spangel also noted that Lewis English could not locate those "High Headlight" Docksider dies, either.  My theory is that they too, went to Japan via the same PFM acquisition.  I have not compared them side by side, but will try to do so as a friend has one.  But I think about this:  It would have been unlikely that PFM or a small Japanese shop like Sakura could bankroll and amortize heavy sophisticated multi-part steel dies used in zamac casting to produce a reported 3,250 examples of the PFM Docksider(Brown Book), even with their low wages in the early 1960's.  Varney produced the zamac Docksiders in the hundres of thousands, and who knows how many tens of thousands of Whitcombs Penn Line produced (but so many they could afford to change from D-1 to D-2 dies).
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Well, anyway, that is my theory of why Lew English never found the dies for the Penn Line Whitcomb and Varney High Headlight Docksider and what became of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I guess D. Spanagel never made the possible connection and asked Sol Kramer in his interviews.  Maybe there is a record of the deal in PFM archives, if preserved?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9570
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: John English Metal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I first learned of these when I bought my late 1940's magazines a few years ago and saw his tiny photo ads.  The first I've seen "close up" were in your main photo album, now the details here.  I had always associated the John English name with his later zamac diecast models, so it was facinating that he first considered the soft lead-based metal and a PRR prototype.  The Penn Line boys from nearby Boyertown, PA, acquied those dies and produced them in the thousands, forever making that locomotive synonomous with the Penn Line name.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>               Over the next few days, with the help of Lennard S, I will be sending pictures of John English metal HO items. After that is done I will send HObbyline (John English plastic) so that albums can be created of parts of my vintage collection. I will add a little narrative to the pictures but it will be impossible to add "all the facts". It is my hope that members could find the pictures useful and add to information on  HOseeker's site.  Again a picture worth a thousand words.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>    The first group of pictures are some John English items that many don't know about. While these came before the change to Hobbyline  they were never made in plastic. Instead they were purchased by Penn Line and became major parts of their line.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> First two pictures are a three piece cast set including a boiler,frame and steam chest. They were used to create a heavy Consolidation and the instructions told you how to complete one. As you can see from the second picture the red box was labeled John English. As I said above this was sold to Penn Lie and became the basis for the PL 2-8-0 Consolidation.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Last three pictures are of a tender first produced by John English and again later used as a major Penn Line item. You can see by the plans first sold  by John English and the sticker on the end of the red box stating so. I have sent a picture of the trucks on this tender made by John English also. They are slightly different then what Penn Line used later.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>    I sent these pictures first as I consider them "rare" as what I feel the oddest and most unknown items made by John English.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9571
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  ONe of the possibilities for the problems described with the V2 motor  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
is a loss of magnetism. Typically, the motor will start out fine cold,  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
but relatively soon will overheat, struggle, and if the loss is great,  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the motor may possibly stall. The amperage draw will be high, as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have not  experienced magnetism loss with V-2s, but I have with  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Lindsay motors- which of course are a direct continuation of the same  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
lineage.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Remagnetizing can and does restore any one of these motors to new life.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9572
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Loss of magnetism has been mentioned here before in regard to loss of power in the older Athearn motors. Is there a place in the greater Sacramento area that re-magnetises motor magnets? Or perhaps better yet is there a method one can use to do this in ones own workshop?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Wobbly913  Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 8:42 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  ONe of the possibilities for the problems described with the V2 motor  
                                                                                                                                                                                  is a loss of magnetism. Typically, the motor will start out fine cold,  
                                                                                                                                                                                  but relatively soon will overheat, struggle, and if the loss is great,  
                                                                                                                                                                                  the motor may possibly stall. The amperage draw will be high, as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I have not  experienced magnetism loss with V-2s, but I have with  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Lindsay motors- which of course are a direct continuation of the same  
                                                                                                                                                                                  lineage.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Remagnetizing can and does restore any one of these motors to new life.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny


                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sacramento







                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9573
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Denny,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I have the same question:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a magnetizer, but I have had no noticable luck remagnetizing motors..
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Is there a method I need to know and follow?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 12:25:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Loss of magnetism has been mentioned here before in regard to loss of power in the older Athearn motors. Is there a place in the greater Sacramento area that re-magnetises motor magnets? Or perhaps better yet is there a method one can use to do this in ones own workshop?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Wobbly913  Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Denny Anspach <danspach@macnexus. org> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Denny Anspach <danspach@macnexus. org>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 8:42 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  ONe of the possibilities for the problems described with the V2 motor  
                                                                                                                                                                                  is a loss of magnetism. Typically, the motor will start out fine cold,  
                                                                                                                                                                                  but relatively soon will overheat, struggle, and if the loss is great,  
                                                                                                                                                                                  the motor may possibly stall. The amperage draw will be high, as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I have not  experienced magnetism loss with V-2s, but I have with  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Lindsay motors- which of course are a direct continuation of the same  
                                                                                                                                                                                  lineage.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Remagnetizing can and does restore any one of these motors to new life.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny


                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sacramento







                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------ --------- --------- ------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9574
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      I do not have or know of the PFM 
diecast Whitcomb. Not knowing when it was made it might be newer then my cutoff 
point of 1975 and stretched to 1977. As for where the Whitcomb Penn Line dies 
got to I have some theory and some fact.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I know the first D-1 type Penn Line Whitcomb 
 was a single stage die and that you could only make one at a time. It 
was hinged at the back and a clamp at the front locked it together and you 
poured the lead into the opening and had to let each cool before opening. A 
funny story about Penn Line relayed to me tells how the neighbors got mad at one 
of the owners. It was in his kitchen on a stove they melted the lead and poured 
the Whitcombs. There was a mold release used and this added smoke to the smell. 
They moved on. This die was used hard being one at a time and "wore out". The 
new die , D-2 type was, a more productive style die and used a different casting 
metal. I think this would be the die you are asking about. I will pose a 
question first. When Penn Line had the plastic bodies made for the Whitcomb who 
did them as Penn Line had no facilities for plastic production I know of 
? Do you think the die for the metal D-2 type Whitcomb was used as a 
pattern for the plastic mold ? If so it was not in Penn Line's hands when they 
auctioned everything off. Ergo die disappeared . If the plastic body PL Whitcomb 
was made in Asia, or where ever PFM is from, could explain the possibility of 
the diecast PFM Penn Linme look alike. ( a little might be here )
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       The Sol Kramer,  of 
then Varney, connection is to say the least wild after he and Lew English 
were the two main characters who bought Penn Line out. We have now found out 
from Jim Waterman that his dad Vince was there also. Remember Sol Kramer 
put out the Varney GG-1 using the PL dies but Lew English was to put out a 
Bowser version but didn't. Did they share the same die ? Also remember that Lew 
English / Bowser has the original Varney shortened pre war electric sold as a 
GG-1 type engine but is actually just a 4-8-4. (Not getting into that again). 
While Lew English has that die it sounds like it is worn out from use 
or time even though not many made.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        I mention all of 
this to come back to the where about and the 
existence of the PL Whitcomb die I'm not sure anyone can be sure. If anyone 
knows come forth and tell us.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                             Knowing how 
many designs of HO equipment was passed on to other, sometimes going through 
many hands I don't think we could exclude the PFM cast Whitcomb as coming from 
the original Penn Line D-2 die. Unless someone associated very closely with PFM 
comes forward we might never know FOR SURE. as far as PL lettering appearing 
vaguely on the PFM I can't confirm or deny without one in hand.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     As for the B&O Docksider another 
story (longer) another time. A convoluted history of many companies at best 
where even Rivarossi's Docksider comes in. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                             Have a great 
day.                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 10:54 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line Whitcomb 
  Photos, PFM Version Questions
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H. (and All),

                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for providing us with album photos of 
  the three different versions of the Penn Line Whitcomb yesterday. Neat little 
  locomotives, at least one Class 1 RR, Susquehanna, used them at dockside in 
  the 1950's and they are sought out by today's scale modelers as well. For 
  anyone wanting to paint them in authentic RR colors, Prime Mover Decals has 
  the right lettering for the NYS&W's snappy maroon and gray paint 
  scheme.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, do you have the diecast Whitcomb imported by Pacific Fast 
  Mail, PFM? D. Spanagel in the Guide to Varney noted that Lewis English 
  traveled to Varney plant in Miami in the 1960's looking for the Penn Line 
  Whitcomb dies (among others), with no luck (page 22). But by then, Jim Ryan's 
  PFM had already advertised their Whitcomb version, and I always believed that 
  PFM acquired the P.L. dies from Kramer of Varney. Besides the obvious 
  identical appearance, the PFM full page introductory ad had a view of the 
  inside of the body shell casting, and looking closely, some of the Penn Line 
  lettering even shows! I always wondered why no one seemed to pick up on that. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM's version also reverted back to the original detailing, removing 
  some of the cast on handrails and such. Dies are very expensive, and PFM and 
  their Japanese builder likely could not have afforded to create heavy steel 
  multi-part dies for zamac casting a few hundred or even a thousand models sold 
  at minimal price, too.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Curiously, PFF also advertised their B&O 
  Docksider at the same time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  D. Spangel also noted that Lewis English could 
  not locate those "High Headlight" Docksider dies, either. My theory is that 
  they too, went to Japan via the same PFM acquisition. I have not compared them 
  side by side, but will try to do so as a friend has one. But I think about 
  this: It would have been unlikely that PFM or a small Japanese shop like 
  Sakura could bankroll and amortize heavy sophisticated multi-part steel dies 
  used in zamac casting to produce a reported 3,250 examples of the PFM 
  Docksider(Brown Book), even with their low wages in the early 1960's. Varney 
  produced the zamac Docksiders in the hundres of thousands, and who knows how 
  many tens of thousands of Whitcombs Penn Line produced (but so many they could 
  afford to change from D-1 to D-2 dies).

                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, anyway, that is my theory 
  of why Lew English never found the dies for the Penn Line Whitcomb and Varney 
  High Headlight Docksider and what became of them.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I guess D. Spanagel 
  never made the possible connection and asked Sol Kramer in his interviews. 
  Maybe there is a record of the deal in PFM archives, if preserved?

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay 
  W. 

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9575
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: more John English metal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                     Two additional John English metal 
items.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           
Picture one is a 2-8-0 I started to build using the 3 main pieces John English 
provided (shown in last Email) and parts as per his instructions to complete. 
 Never finished. To many other things. Again the main three parts 
(boiler, frame and steam chest) are John English not Penn 
Line.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                            Picture two is of 
the venerable John English "Yard Bird". The original kits came assembled but 
undecorated allowing anyone to finish it their way. This engine was not brand 
new but had some repair work I did before finishing it off.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     More John English 
tomorrow.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9576
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny--and others--where can I get a motor remagnetized?  I have a metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Athearn RDC that has those symptoms in the motor.    gj
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 8:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ONe of the possibilities for the problems described with the V2 motor
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> is a loss of magnetism. Typically, the motor will start out fine cold,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> but relatively soon will overheat, struggle, and if the loss is great,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the motor may possibly stall. The amperage draw will be high, as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have not  experienced magnetism loss with V-2s, but I have with
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Lindsay motors- which of course are a direct continuation of the same
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> lineage.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Remagnetizing can and does restore any one of these motors to new life.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9577
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                  
The first HO loco I bought was the Penn Line D-2.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                  
wore it out over a period of 6 years.  Recently picked
                                                                                                                                                                                  
up 2 on the bay.  1 is the small driver version and
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the other is the large driver version.  I'm sure the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
large driver version appeared between 1957 and 1960
                                                                                                                                                                                  
but can't be any more specific than that.  I worked
                                                                                                                                                                                  
at Jaye & Jaye in East Cleveland between 1958 and 1961.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
During that time the hobby shop sold many PFM locos.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
I do not recall any PFM catalog that showed a Whitcomb,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
let alone a die cast version.  PFM made many different
                                                                                                                                                                                  
brass locos but don't ever recall any diecast PFM and
                                                                                                                                                                                  
can't imagine a PFM diecast (of all things) Whitcomb
                                                                                                                                                                                  
created by Penn Line.  That just wasn't their style
                                                                                                                                                                                  
of doing things.  Not only that, I just can't imagine
                                                                                                                                                                                  
PFM being careless enough to leave any kind of latent
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Penn Line id on their product The Penn Line offering 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
was inexpensive - seems to me it was 9.95 (a princely 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
sum for a young boy with a paper route).  Seems to me PFM stuff started in the $40 - $50 range for many offerings and there
                                                                                                                                                                                  
were several PFM articulateds that sold for over $100.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Unless I've missed something I haven't seen any
                                                                                                                                                                                  
pics of the "PFM Whitcomb".
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     I do not have or know of the PFM diecast Whitcomb. Not knowing when it was made it might be newer then my cutoff point of 1975 and stretched to 1977. As for where the Whitcomb Penn Line dies got to I have some theory and some fact.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I know the first D-1 type Penn Line Whitcomb  was a single stage die and that you could only make one at a time. It was hinged at the back and a clamp at the front locked it together and you poured the lead into the opening and had to let each cool before opening. A funny story about Penn Line relayed to me tells how the neighbors got mad at one of the owners. It was in his kitchen on a stove they melted the lead and poured the Whitcombs. There was a mold release used and this added smoke to the smell. They moved on. This die was used hard being one at a time and "wore out". The new die , D-2 type was, a more productive style die and used a different casting metal. I think this would be the die you are asking about. I will pose a question first. When Penn Line had the plastic bodies made for the Whitcomb who did them as Penn Line had no facilities for plastic production I know of ? Do you think the die for the metal D-2 type Whitcomb was used as a pattern for the plastic mold ? If so it was not in Penn Line's hands when they auctioned everything off. Ergo die disappeared . If the plastic body PL Whitcomb was made in Asia, or where ever PFM is from, could explain the possibility of the diecast PFM Penn Linme look alike. ( a little might be here )
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>      The Sol Kramer,  of then Varney, connection is to say the least wild after he and Lew English were the two main characters who bought Penn Line out. We have now found out from Jim Waterman that his dad Vince was there also. Remember Sol Kramer put out the Varney GG-1 using the PL dies but Lew English was to put out a Bowser version but didn't. Did they share the same die ? Also remember that Lew English / Bowser has the original Varney shortened pre war electric sold as a GG-1 type engine but is actually just a 4-8-4. (Not getting into that again). While Lew English has that die it sounds like it is worn out from use or time even though not many made.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>       I mention all of this to come back to the where about and the existence of the PL Whitcomb die I'm not sure anyone can be sure. If anyone knows come forth and tell us.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>            Knowing how many designs of HO equipment was passed on to other, sometimes going through many hands I don't think we could exclude the PFM cast Whitcomb as coming from the original Penn Line D-2 die. Unless someone associated very closely with PFM comes forward we might never know FOR SURE. as far as PL lettering appearing vaguely on the PFM I can't confirm or deny without one in hand.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>    As for the B&O Docksider another story (longer) another time. A convoluted history of many companies at best where even Rivarossi's Docksider comes in. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>            Have a great day.                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 10:54 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Hi Jim H. (and All),
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Thanks for providing us with album photos of the three different versions of the Penn Line Whitcomb yesterday. Neat little locomotives, at least one Class 1 RR, Susquehanna, used them at dockside in the 1950's and they are sought out by today's scale modelers as well. For anyone wanting to paint them in authentic RR colors, Prime Mover Decals has the right lettering for the NYS&W's snappy maroon and gray paint scheme.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Jim, do you have the diecast Whitcomb imported by Pacific Fast Mail, PFM? D. Spanagel in the Guide to Varney noted that Lewis English traveled to Varney plant in Miami in the 1960's looking for the Penn Line Whitcomb dies (among others), with no luck (page 22). But by then, Jim Ryan's PFM had already advertised their Whitcomb version, and I always believed that PFM acquired the P.L. dies from Kramer of Varney. Besides the obvious identical appearance, the PFM full page introductory ad had a view of the inside of the body shell casting, and looking closely, some of the Penn Line lettering even shows! I always wondered why no one seemed to pick up on that. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   PFM's version also reverted back to the original detailing, removing some of the cast on handrails and such. Dies are very expensive, and PFM and their Japanese builder likely could not have afforded to create heavy steel multi-part dies for zamac casting a few hundred or even a thousand models sold at minimal price, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Curiously, PFF also advertised their B&O Docksider at the same time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   D. Spangel also noted that Lewis English could not locate those "High Headlight" Docksider dies, either. My theory is that they too, went to Japan via the same PFM acquisition. I have not compared them side by side, but will try to do so as a friend has one. But I think about this: It would have been unlikely that PFM or a small Japanese shop like Sakura could bankroll and amortize heavy sophisticated multi-part steel dies used in zamac casting to produce a reported 3,250 examples of the PFM Docksider(Brown Book), even with their low wages in the early 1960's. Varney produced the zamac Docksiders in the hundres of thousands, and who knows how many tens of thousands of Whitcombs Penn Line produced (but so many they could afford to change from D-1 to D-2 dies).
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Well, anyway, that is my theory of why Lew English never found the dies for the Penn Line Whitcomb and Varney High Headlight Docksider and what became of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   I guess D. Spanagel never made the possible connection and asked Sol Kramer in his interviews. Maybe there is a record of the deal in PFM archives, if preserved?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9578
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 4/9/2009 1:02:18 PM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  the original Varney shortened pre war electric sold as a GG-1 type engine but is actually just a 4-8-4. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  ----------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Would that make it a model of the one-of-a-kind R1?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 or less.                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9579
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  I have to agree. I have never seen a PFM diecast anything, let alone a whitcomb. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  forgive me, but I just tuned into this discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   I do not know if anyone has looked at my folders, but I have a series of very clear pictures documenting both versions (lead "D1" & diecast D2) of the Penn Line Whitcomb. There are even pics of the smaller and larger driver versions of the diecast D2. I know of no itheres.. not to say they do not exist though..
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: oljoeoh <oljoe@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 1:45:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                  The first HO loco I bought was the Penn Line D-2. I
                                                                                                                                                                                  wore it out over a period of 6 years. Recently picked
                                                                                                                                                                                  up 2 on the bay. 1 is the small driver version and
                                                                                                                                                                                  the other is the large driver version. I'm sure the
                                                                                                                                                                                  large driver version appeared between 1957 and 1960
                                                                                                                                                                                  but can't be any more specific than that. I worked
                                                                                                                                                                                  at Jaye & Jaye in East Cleveland between 1958 and 1961.
                                                                                                                                                                                  During that time the hobby shop sold many PFM locos.
                                                                                                                                                                                  I do not recall any PFM catalog that showed a Whitcomb,
                                                                                                                                                                                  let alone a die cast version. PFM made many different
                                                                                                                                                                                  brass locos but don't ever recall any diecast PFM and
                                                                                                                                                                                  can't imagine a PFM diecast (of all things) Whitcomb
                                                                                                                                                                                  created by Penn Line. That just wasn't their style
                                                                                                                                                                                  of doing things. Not only that, I just can't imagine
                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM being careless enough to leave any kind of latent
                                                                                                                                                                                  Penn Line id on their product The Penn Line offering 
                                                                                                                                                                                  was inexpensive - seems to me it was 9.95 (a princely
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  sum for a young boy with a paper route). Seems to me PFM stuff started in the $40 - $50 range for many offerings and there
                                                                                                                                                                                  were several PFM articulateds that sold for over $100.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Unless I've missed something I haven't seen any
                                                                                                                                                                                  pics of the "PFM Whitcomb".
                                                                                                                                                                                  Joe O'Loughlin

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I do not have or know of the PFM diecast Whitcomb. Not knowing when it was made it might be newer then my cutoff point of 1975 and stretched to 1977. As for where the Whitcomb Penn Line dies got to I have some theory and some fact.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I know the first D-1 type Penn Line Whitcomb was a single stage die and that you could only make one at a time. It was hinged at the back and a clamp at the front locked it together and you poured the
 lead into the opening and had to let each cool before opening. A funny story about Penn Line relayed to me tells how the neighbors got mad at one of the owners. It was in his kitchen on a stove they melted the lead and poured the Whitcombs. There was a mold release used and this added smoke to the smell. They moved on. This die was used hard being one at a time and "wore out". The new die , D-2 type was, a more productive style die and used a different casting metal. I think this would be the die you are asking about. I will pose a question first. When Penn Line had the plastic bodies made for the Whitcomb who did them as Penn Line had no facilities for plastic production I know of ? Do you think the die for the metal D-2 type Whitcomb was used as a pattern for the plastic mold ? If so it was not in Penn Line's hands when they auctioned everything off. Ergo die disappeared . If the plastic body PL Whitcomb was made in Asia, or where ever PFM is from,
 could explain the possibility of the diecast PFM Penn Linme look alike. ( a little might be here )
                                                                                                                                                                                  > The Sol Kramer, of then Varney, connection is to say the least wild after he and Lew English were the two main characters who bought Penn Line out. We have now found out from Jim Waterman that his dad Vince was there also. Remember Sol Kramer put out the Varney GG-1 using the PL dies but Lew English was to put out a Bowser version but didn't. Did they share the same die ? Also remember that Lew English / Bowser has the original Varney shortened pre war electric sold as a GG-1 type engine but is actually just a 4-8-4. (Not getting into that again). While Lew English has that die it sounds like it is worn out from use or time even though not many made.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I mention all of this to come back to the where about and the existence of the PL Whitcomb die I'm not sure anyone can be sure. If anyone knows come forth and tell us.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Knowing how many
 designs of HO equipment was passed on to other, sometimes going through many hands I don't think we could exclude the PFM cast Whitcomb as coming from the original Penn Line D-2 die. Unless someone associated very closely with PFM comes forward we might never know FOR SURE. as far as PL lettering appearing vaguely on the PFM I can't confirm or deny without one in hand.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > As for the B&O Docksider another story (longer) another time. A convoluted history of many companies at best where even Rivarossi's Docksider comes in. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Have a great day. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 10:54 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line
 Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Jim H. (and All),
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thanks for providing us with album photos of the three different versions of the Penn Line Whitcomb yesterday. Neat little locomotives, at least one Class 1 RR, Susquehanna, used them at dockside in the 1950's and they are sought out by today's scale modelers as well. For anyone wanting to paint them in authentic RR colors, Prime Mover Decals has the right lettering for the NYS&W's snappy maroon and gray paint scheme.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim, do you have the diecast Whitcomb imported by Pacific Fast Mail, PFM? D. Spanagel in the Guide to Varney noted that Lewis English traveled to Varney plant in Miami in the 1960's looking for the Penn Line Whitcomb dies (among others), with no luck (page 22). But by then, Jim Ryan's PFM had already advertised their Whitcomb version, and I always believed that PFM acquired the P.L. dies
 from Kramer of Varney. Besides the obvious identical appearance, the PFM full page introductory ad had a view of the inside of the body shell casting, and looking closely, some of the Penn Line lettering even shows! I always wondered why no one seemed to pick up on that. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > PFM's version also reverted back to the original detailing, removing some of the cast on handrails and such. Dies are very expensive, and PFM and their Japanese builder likely could not have afforded to create heavy steel multi-part dies for zamac casting a few hundred or even a thousand models sold at minimal price, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Curiously, PFF also advertised their B&O Docksider at the same time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > D. Spangel also noted that Lewis English could not locate those "High Headlight" Docksider dies, either. My theory is that they too, went to Japan via the same PFM acquisition. I have not compared them side by side, but will try to do so as a friend has
 one. But I think about this: It would have been unlikely that PFM or a small Japanese shop like Sakura could bankroll and amortize heavy sophisticated multi-part steel dies used in zamac casting to produce a reported 3,250 examples of the PFM Docksider(Brown Book), even with their low wages in the early 1960's. Varney produced the zamac Docksiders in the hundres of thousands, and who knows how many tens of thousands of Whitcombs Penn Line produced (but so many they could afford to change from D-1 to D-2 dies).
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Well, anyway, that is my theory of why Lew English never found the dies for the Penn Line Whitcomb and Varney High Headlight Docksider and what became of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I guess D. Spanagel never made the possible connection and asked Sol Kramer in his interviews. Maybe there is a record of the deal in PFM archives, if preserved?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >


                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9580
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Penn Line Whitcomb, Varney Docksider: PFM, Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  That is a great story about casting those first white metal Penn Line D-1's.  Thanks for sharing it.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Pacific Fast Mail:
                                                                                                                                                                                    The Pacific Fast Mail (PFM) diecast metal Docksider and Whitcomb models were produced in about the 1962, or 1962 to 1966 timeframe.  I will try to research the dates and magazine ad dates in the next few days and maybe poke some holes in or support my theories!  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Metal to Plastic  dies:  Yes, I have read that steel dies made for casting zamac can be converted for use with some plastics, by chaging material gates and air vents, but not as good as dies made specifically for plastic molding from the beginning.  Lewis English, remarked in some interview or history that Varney had converted the Casey Jones & Old Lady tender die from zamac use to plastic, then Lewis English said he paid as much to change them back for use in zamac molding!  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Varney Docksider - High Headlight Versions:  I originally suspected that Varney initially converted the original high headlight version Docksider dies to work with plastic, but considering they were making hundreds of thousands of models, and the high headlight was giving them problems (D. Spanagel), they finally had a new die made, with lower headlight, for plastic molding, (Spanagel says 1961).  But maybe they did make an all new plastic high headlight Docksider die in 1956.  But either way, the original Varney high headlight dies were surplus and could have been sold Jim Ryan of PFM anytime after 1961 at the latest, well before his 1963 introduction of Japanese unit by Sakura.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Bowser Docksider:  In comparing them side by side, I have alwasy concluded that Lewis English acquired the original Varney low headlight plastic dies as that is what he printed in his company history; the Life Like versions were a inexpensive copy commissioned by Kramer for production in the Pacific Rim area for lower cost.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Rivarossi Docksider roots: As far as I can determine, there was no actual connection between the Rivarossi Docksider dies and Varney,  other than a common prototype.  My source is an interview wth Mr. Alessandro Rossi, Rivarossi's founder.  He said of the Rivarossi Docksider: "The Dockside 0-4-0 was a proposal that originated from our American Importer. There was requests for a versatile machine, that was also ideal for smaller circuits. The first production of this Locomotive was rather ugly,  as it was created from photo only, without original blueprints."(Note by Jay W.: this was the ungainly OO/HO scale version imported by Polks in the late 1940's, clearly not remotely a Varney copy.)  "The second version was not bad,"  Mr. Rossi added.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Interviewer, "The technical data, the measurements how did you obtain them?"  Rossi continued, "For the American Locomotives, it was my American importer that obtained the original blueprints." (Jay's note, first the Polk Brothers, then later Bernie Paul of AHM.) "As I have said, the first mould of the Dockside was obtained from photo or very little more, to respond to the market, but as soon as we came into possession the original blueprints, a new improved mould in HO was immediately put into production, according to the US standards."  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, I have one of those late 1940's Rivarossi Docksiders, the body is OO scale, the mechanism HO gauge, with a "sidewinder" three pole motor very much like the British Trix-Twin motors, which Mr. Rossi said he used as a guide. For more of his interview and information on other Vintage American style Rivarossi like the MILW Baltic,  Dusty,  Erie, etc. see this Italian website (in English as well):
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/ENGLISH_VERSION/Meeting_Alessandro_Rossi.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Back to the Penn Line Whitcomb:  Your speculation on why the Penn Line Whitcomb dies was not in the Penn Line Bankruptcy sale  (Jan. 29, 1964) is interesing.  Another speculation is that knowing they were going down the tubes, Penn Line's owner might have also sold off the dies ahead of time to raise cash on a locomotive they were no longer offering?  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hopefully some can add more to this.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  W. Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I do not have or know of the PFM diecast Whitcomb. Not knowing when it was made it might be newer then my cutoff point of 1975 and stretched to 1977. As for where the Whitcomb Penn Line dies got to I have some theory and some fact.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I know the first D-1 type Penn Line Whitcomb was a single stage die and that you could only make one at a time. It was hinged at the back and a clamp at the front locked it together and you poured the lead into the opening and had to let each cool before opening. A funny story about Penn Line relayed to me tells how the neighbors got mad at one of the owners. It was in his kitchen on a stove they melted the lead and poured the Whitcombs. There was a mold release used and this added smoke to the smell. They moved on. This die was used hard being one at a time and "wore out". The new die , D-2 type was, a more productive style die and used a different casting metal. I think this would be the die you are asking about. I will pose a question first. When Penn Line had the plastic bodies made for the Whitcomb who did them as Penn Line had no facilities for plastic production I know of ? Do you think the die for the metal D-2 type Whitcomb was used as a pattern for the plastic mold ? If so it was not in Penn Line's hands when they auctioned everything off. Ergo die disappeared . If the plastic body PL Whitcomb was made in Asia, or where ever PFM is from, could explain the possibility of the diecast PFM Penn Linme look alike. ( a little might be here )
                                                                                                                                                                                  > The Sol Kramer, of then Varney, connection is to say the least wild after he and Lew English were the two main characters who bought Penn Line out. We have now found out from Jim Waterman that his dad Vince was there also. Remember Sol Kramer put out the Varney GG-1 using the PL dies but Lew English was to put out a Bowser version but didn't. Did they share the same die ? Also remember that Lew English / Bowser has the original Varney shortened pre war electric sold as a GG-1 type engine but is actually just a 4-8-4. (Not getting into that again). While Lew English has that die it sounds like it is worn out from use or time even though not many made.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I mention all of this to come back to the where about and the existence of the PL Whitcomb die I'm not sure anyone can be sure. If anyone knows come forth and tell us.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Knowing how many designs of HO equipment was passed on to other, sometimes going through many hands I don't think we could exclude the PFM cast Whitcomb as coming from the original Penn Line D-2 die. Unless someone associated very closely with PFM comes forward we might never know FOR SURE. as far as PL lettering appearing vaguely on the PFM I can't confirm or deny without one in hand.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > As for the B&O Docksider another story (longer) another time. A convoluted history of many companies at best where even Rivarossi's Docksider comes in. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Have a great day. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 10:54 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Jim H. (and All),
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thanks for providing us with album photos of the three different versions of the Penn Line Whitcomb yesterday. Neat little locomotives, at least one Class 1 RR, Susquehanna, used them at dockside in the 1950's and they are sought out by today's scale modelers as well. For anyone wanting to paint them in authentic RR colors, Prime Mover Decals has the right lettering for the NYS&W's snappy maroon and gray paint scheme.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim, do you have the diecast Whitcomb imported by Pacific Fast Mail, PFM? D. Spanagel in the Guide to Varney noted that Lewis English traveled to Varney plant in Miami in the 1960's looking for the Penn Line Whitcomb dies (among others), with no luck (page 22). But by then, Jim Ryan's PFM had already advertised their Whitcomb version, and I always believed that PFM acquired the P.L. dies from Kramer of Varney. Besides the obvious identical appearance, the PFM full page introductory ad had a view of the inside of the body shell casting, and looking closely, some of the Penn Line lettering even shows! I always wondered why no one seemed to pick up on that. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > PFM's version also reverted back to the original detailing, removing some of the cast on handrails and such. Dies are very expensive, and PFM and their Japanese builder likely could not have afforded to create heavy steel multi-part dies for zamac casting a few hundred or even a thousand models sold at minimal price, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Curiously, PFF also advertised their B&O Docksider at the same time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > D. Spangel also noted that Lewis English could not locate those "High Headlight" Docksider dies, either. My theory is that they too, went to Japan via the same PFM acquisition. I have not compared them side by side, but will try to do so as a friend has one. But I think about this: It would have been unlikely that PFM or a small Japanese shop like Sakura could bankroll and amortize heavy sophisticated multi-part steel dies used in zamac casting to produce a reported 3,250 examples of the PFM Docksider(Brown Book), even with their low wages in the early 1960's. Varney produced the zamac Docksiders in the hundres of thousands, and who knows how many tens of thousands of Whitcombs Penn Line produced (but so many they could afford to change from D-1 to D-2 dies).
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Well, anyway, that is my theory of why Lew English never found the dies for the Penn Line Whitcomb and Varney High Headlight Docksider and what became of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I guess D. Spanagel never made the possible connection and asked Sol Kramer in his interviews. Maybe there is a record of the deal in PFM archives, if preserved?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9581
						From: trainliker
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM imported a B&O 0-4-0 Docksider that was diecast.  It was made by Sakura.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Also, PFM originally distributed this and that as well as getting started in importing brass.  For example, Kemtron and I think Red Ball and others when PFM started.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm at work now and don't have access to my PFM catalogs.  But I have ALL of their catalogs and probably all or mostly all of their loose catalog sheets.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
The original PFM catalogs were really loose leaf sheets in a small binder.  The "PFM, 25 Years of Fine Models" book says that is the "first edition" catalog and the printed one saying "2nd edition" is the first printed catalog.  This is incorrect.  PFM had a first printed catalog with a cover design identical to the "2nd" and "3rd" printed catalogs, but with no reference to edition and a different color used on the cover.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
If PFM did have any involvement with the Whitcomb switcher, it would likely have been during the very early years when they were still finding their brass import sea legs and also selling various U.S. vendor products.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'll check the catalogs and catalog sheets when I get a chance.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chuck Kinzer   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have to agree. I have never seen a PFM diecast anything, let alone a whitcomb. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> forgive me, but I just tuned into this discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  I do not know if anyone has looked at my folders, but I have a series of very clear pictures documenting both versions (lead "D1" & diecast D2) of the Penn Line Whitcomb. There are even pics of the smaller and larger driver versions of the diecast D2. I know of no itheres.. not to say they do not exist though..
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: oljoeoh <oljoe@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 1:45:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The first HO loco I bought was the Penn Line D-2. I
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> wore it out over a period of 6 years. Recently picked
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> up 2 on the bay. 1 is the small driver version and
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the other is the large driver version. I'm sure the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> large driver version appeared between 1957 and 1960
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> but can't be any more specific than that. I worked
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> at Jaye & Jaye in East Cleveland between 1958 and 1961.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> During that time the hobby shop sold many PFM locos.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I do not recall any PFM catalog that showed a Whitcomb,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> let alone a die cast version. PFM made many different
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> brass locos but don't ever recall any diecast PFM and
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> can't imagine a PFM diecast (of all things) Whitcomb
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> created by Penn Line. That just wasn't their style
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> of doing things. Not only that, I just can't imagine
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> PFM being careless enough to leave any kind of latent
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Penn Line id on their product The Penn Line offering 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> was inexpensive - seems to me it was 9.95 (a princely 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> sum for a young boy with a paper route). Seems to me PFM stuff started in the $40 - $50 range for many offerings and there
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> were several PFM articulateds that sold for over $100.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Unless I've missed something I haven't seen any
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> pics of the "PFM Whitcomb".
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I do not have or know of the PFM diecast Whitcomb. Not knowing when it was made it might be newer then my cutoff point of 1975 and stretched to 1977. As for where the Whitcomb Penn Line dies got to I have some theory and some fact.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I know the first D-1 type Penn Line Whitcomb was a single stage die and that you could only make one at a time. It was hinged at the back and a clamp at the front locked it together and you poured the lead into the opening and had to let each cool before opening. A funny story about Penn Line relayed to me tells how the neighbors got mad at one of the owners. It was in his kitchen on a stove they melted the lead and poured the Whitcombs. There was a mold release used and this added smoke to the smell. They moved on. This die was used hard being one at a time and "wore out". The new die , D-2 type was, a more productive style die and used a different casting metal. I think this would be the die you are asking about. I will pose a question first. When Penn Line had the plastic bodies made for the Whitcomb who did them as Penn Line had no facilities for plastic production I know of ? Do you think the die for the metal D-2 type Whitcomb was used as a
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  pattern for the plastic mold ? If so it was not in Penn Line's hands when they auctioned everything off. Ergo die disappeared . If the plastic body PL Whitcomb was made in Asia, or where ever PFM is from, could explain the possibility of the diecast PFM Penn Linme look alike. ( a little might be here )
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > The Sol Kramer, of then Varney, connection is to say the least wild after he and Lew English were the two main characters who bought Penn Line out. We have now found out from Jim Waterman that his dad Vince was there also. Remember Sol Kramer put out the Varney GG-1 using the PL dies but Lew English was to put out a Bowser version but didn't. Did they share the same die ? Also remember that Lew English / Bowser has the original Varney shortened pre war electric sold as a GG-1 type engine but is actually just a 4-8-4. (Not getting into that again). While Lew English has that die it sounds like it is worn out from use or time even though not many made.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I mention all of this to come back to the where about and the existence of the PL Whitcomb die I'm not sure anyone can be sure. If anyone knows come forth and tell us.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Knowing how many designs of HO equipment was passed on to other, sometimes going through many hands I don't think we could exclude the PFM cast Whitcomb as coming from the original Penn Line D-2 die. Unless someone associated very closely with PFM comes forward we might never know FOR SURE. as far as PL lettering appearing vaguely on the PFM I can't confirm or deny without one in hand.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > As for the B&O Docksider another story (longer) another time. A convoluted history of many companies at best where even Rivarossi's Docksider comes in. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Have a great day. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 10:54 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Hi Jim H. (and All),
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Thanks for providing us with album photos of the three different versions of the Penn Line Whitcomb yesterday. Neat little locomotives, at least one Class 1 RR, Susquehanna, used them at dockside in the 1950's and they are sought out by today's scale modelers as well. For anyone wanting to paint them in authentic RR colors, Prime Mover Decals has the right lettering for the NYS&W's snappy maroon and gray paint scheme.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Jim, do you have the diecast Whitcomb imported by Pacific Fast Mail, PFM? D. Spanagel in the Guide to Varney noted that Lewis English traveled to Varney plant in Miami in the 1960's looking for the Penn Line Whitcomb dies (among others), with no luck (page 22). But by then, Jim Ryan's PFM had already advertised their Whitcomb version, and I always believed that PFM acquired the P.L. dies from Kramer of Varney. Besides the obvious identical appearance, the PFM full page introductory ad had a view of the inside of the body shell casting, and looking closely, some of the Penn Line lettering even shows! I always wondered why no one seemed to pick up on that. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > PFM's version also reverted back to the original detailing, removing some of the cast on handrails and such. Dies are very expensive, and PFM and their Japanese builder likely could not have afforded to create heavy steel multi-part dies for zamac casting a few hundred or even a thousand models sold at minimal price, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Curiously, PFF also advertised their B&O Docksider at the same time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > D. Spangel also noted that Lewis English could not locate those "High Headlight" Docksider dies, either. My theory is that they too, went to Japan via the same PFM acquisition. I have not compared them side by side, but will try to do so as a friend has one. But I think about this: It would have been unlikely that PFM or a small Japanese shop like Sakura could bankroll and amortize heavy sophisticated multi-part steel dies used in zamac casting to produce a reported 3,250 examples of the PFM Docksider(Brown Book), even with their low wages in the early 1960's. Varney produced the zamac Docksiders in the hundres of thousands, and who knows how many tens of thousands of Whitcombs Penn Line produced (but so many they could afford to change from D-1 to D-2 dies).
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Well, anyway, that is my theory of why Lew English never found the dies for the Penn Line Whitcomb and Varney High Headlight Docksider and what became of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I guess D. Spanagel never made the possible connection and asked Sol Kramer in his interviews. Maybe there is a record of the deal in PFM archives, if preserved?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9582
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Joe O'Loughlin, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Will dig theough those old Mags. and come up with the PFM (I think back page) ad dates and the one I mentioned, think it was in 1963, so would have been after your experience at the shop.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
PFM was not above using American models for their line, like the Lindasy/Kemtron NW-1 that was offered by them with both Japanese and American (Baker?) drives, the buyers had a choice.  Zamac models were not their style, either, but Jim Ryan Sr. knew a good deal and I'm sure wanted to get modelers looking at his more expensive offerings, too. Selling 3,500 zamac Docksiders even at a low price must have made him a happy profit and he was not too proud to make it! (The remains of Penn Line lettering show in the Whitcomb ad photo, can not say if it appeared in any of the production units.)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Will post those full page ad dates as soon as I can find them later at home.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
W. Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The first HO loco I bought was the Penn Line D-2.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> wore it out over a period of 6 years.  Recently picked
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> up 2 on the bay.  1 is the small driver version and
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the other is the large driver version.  I'm sure the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> large driver version appeared between 1957 and 1960
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> but can't be any more specific than that.  I worked
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> at Jaye & Jaye in East Cleveland between 1958 and 1961.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> During that time the hobby shop sold many PFM locos.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I do not recall any PFM catalog that showed a Whitcomb,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> let alone a die cast version.  PFM made many different
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> brass locos but don't ever recall any diecast PFM and
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> can't imagine a PFM diecast (of all things) Whitcomb
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> created by Penn Line.  That just wasn't their style
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> of doing things.  Not only that, I just can't imagine
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> PFM being careless enough to leave any kind of latent
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Penn Line id on their product The Penn Line offering 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> was inexpensive - seems to me it was 9.95 (a princely 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> sum for a young boy with a paper route).  Seems to me PFM stuff started in the $40 - $50 range for many offerings and there
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> were several PFM articulateds that sold for over $100.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Unless I've missed something I haven't seen any
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> pics of the "PFM Whitcomb".
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     I do not have or know of the PFM diecast Whitcomb. Not knowing when it was made it might be newer then my cutoff point of 1975 and stretched to 1977. As for where the Whitcomb Penn Line dies got to I have some theory and some fact.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I know the first D-1 type Penn Line Whitcomb  was a single stage die and that you could only make one at a time. It was hinged at the back and a clamp at the front locked it together and you poured the lead into the opening and had to let each cool before opening. A funny story about Penn Line relayed to me tells how the neighbors got mad at one of the owners. It was in his kitchen on a stove they melted the lead and poured the Whitcombs. There was a mold release used and this added smoke to the smell. They moved on. This die was used hard being one at a time and "wore out". The new die , D-2 type was, a more productive style die and used a different casting metal. I think this would be the die you are asking about. I will pose a question first. When Penn Line had the plastic bodies made for the Whitcomb who did them as Penn Line had no facilities for plastic production I know of ? Do you think the die for the metal D-2 type Whitcomb was used as a pattern for the plastic mold ? If so it was not in Penn Line's hands when they auctioned everything off. Ergo die disappeared . If the plastic body PL Whitcomb was made in Asia, or where ever PFM is from, could explain the possibility of the diecast PFM Penn Linme look alike. ( a little might be here )
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >      The Sol Kramer,  of then Varney, connection is to say the least wild after he and Lew English were the two main characters who bought Penn Line out. We have now found out from Jim Waterman that his dad Vince was there also. Remember Sol Kramer put out the Varney GG-1 using the PL dies but Lew English was to put out a Bowser version but didn't. Did they share the same die ? Also remember that Lew English / Bowser has the original Varney shortened pre war electric sold as a GG-1 type engine but is actually just a 4-8-4. (Not getting into that again). While Lew English has that die it sounds like it is worn out from use or time even though not many made.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >       I mention all of this to come back to the where about and the existence of the PL Whitcomb die I'm not sure anyone can be sure. If anyone knows come forth and tell us.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >            Knowing how many designs of HO equipment was passed on to other, sometimes going through many hands I don't think we could exclude the PFM cast Whitcomb as coming from the original Penn Line D-2 die. Unless someone associated very closely with PFM comes forward we might never know FOR SURE. as far as PL lettering appearing vaguely on the PFM I can't confirm or deny without one in hand.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >    As for the B&O Docksider another story (longer) another time. A convoluted history of many companies at best where even Rivarossi's Docksider comes in. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >            Have a great day.                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >      
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >        
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 10:54 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   Hi Jim H. (and All),
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   Thanks for providing us with album photos of the three different versions of the Penn Line Whitcomb yesterday. Neat little locomotives, at least one Class 1 RR, Susquehanna, used them at dockside in the 1950's and they are sought out by today's scale modelers as well. For anyone wanting to paint them in authentic RR colors, Prime Mover Decals has the right lettering for the NYS&W's snappy maroon and gray paint scheme.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   Jim, do you have the diecast Whitcomb imported by Pacific Fast Mail, PFM? D. Spanagel in the Guide to Varney noted that Lewis English traveled to Varney plant in Miami in the 1960's looking for the Penn Line Whitcomb dies (among others), with no luck (page 22). But by then, Jim Ryan's PFM had already advertised their Whitcomb version, and I always believed that PFM acquired the P.L. dies from Kramer of Varney. Besides the obvious identical appearance, the PFM full page introductory ad had a view of the inside of the body shell casting, and looking closely, some of the Penn Line lettering even shows! I always wondered why no one seemed to pick up on that. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   PFM's version also reverted back to the original detailing, removing some of the cast on handrails and such. Dies are very expensive, and PFM and their Japanese builder likely could not have afforded to create heavy steel multi-part dies for zamac casting a few hundred or even a thousand models sold at minimal price, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   Curiously, PFF also advertised their B&O Docksider at the same time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   D. Spangel also noted that Lewis English could not locate those "High Headlight" Docksider dies, either. My theory is that they too, went to Japan via the same PFM acquisition. I have not compared them side by side, but will try to do so as a friend has one. But I think about this: It would have been unlikely that PFM or a small Japanese shop like Sakura could bankroll and amortize heavy sophisticated multi-part steel dies used in zamac casting to produce a reported 3,250 examples of the PFM Docksider(Brown Book), even with their low wages in the early 1960's. Varney produced the zamac Docksiders in the hundres of thousands, and who knows how many tens of thousands of Whitcombs Penn Line produced (but so many they could afford to change from D-1 to D-2 dies).
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   Well, anyway, that is my theory of why Lew English never found the dies for the Penn Line Whitcomb and Varney High Headlight Docksider and what became of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   I guess D. Spanagel never made the possible connection and asked Sol Kramer in his interviews. Maybe there is a record of the deal in PFM archives, if preserved?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9583
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Yes, but Varney sold it as a GG-1 
style
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:49 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line 
  Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 4/9/2009 1:02:18 PM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  the 
    original Varney shortened pre war electric sold as a GG-1 type engine but is 
    actually just a 4-8-4. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------ --------- -
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Would that make it a model of the one-of-a-kind R1?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner 
  for $10 or less.                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9584
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  While I wait for my AutoCADD to start responding again, I figured I would chime in again. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I too have about 6-8 PFM catalogs. All have the Sakura, none, if I recall show any diecast diesel. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a folder with pictures of a Sakura posted in the album section of this group as well, if anyone wishes to look. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Well autoCADD has not come back.. Time to restart...
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: trainliker <ckinzer@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 3:01:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM imported a B&O 0-4-0 Docksider that was diecast. It was made by Sakura.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Also, PFM originally distributed this and that as well as getting started in importing brass. For example, Kemtron and I think Red Ball and others when PFM started.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm at work now and don't have access to my PFM catalogs. But I have ALL of their catalogs and probably all or mostly all of their loose catalog sheets.

                                                                                                                                                                                  The original PFM catalogs were really loose leaf sheets in a small binder. The "PFM, 25 Years of Fine Models" book says that is the "first edition" catalog and the printed one saying "2nd edition" is the first printed catalog. This is incorrect. PFM had a first printed catalog with a cover design identical to the "2nd" and "3rd" printed catalogs, but with no reference to edition and a different color used on the cover.

                                                                                                                                                                                  If PFM did have any involvement with the Whitcomb switcher, it would likely have been during the very early years
 when they were still finding their brass import sea legs and also selling various U.S. vendor products.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'll check the catalogs and catalog sheets when I get a chance.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Kinzer 

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I have to agree. I have never seen a PFM diecast anything, let alone a whitcomb. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > forgive me, but I just tuned into this discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >  I do not know if anyone has looked at my folders, but I have a series of very clear pictures documenting both versions (lead "D1" & diecast D2) of the Penn Line Whitcomb. There are even pics of the smaller and larger driver versions of the diecast D2. I know of no itheres.. not to say they do not exist though..
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: oljoeoh <oljoe@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 1:45:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                  > The first HO loco I bought was the Penn Line D-2. I
                                                                                                                                                                                  > wore it out over a period of 6 years. Recently picked
                                                                                                                                                                                  > up 2 on the bay. 1 is the small driver version and
                                                                                                                                                                                  > the other is the large driver version. I'm sure the
                                                                                                                                                                                  > large driver version appeared between 1957 and 1960
                                                                                                                                                                                  > but can't be any more specific than that. I worked
                                                                                                                                                                                  > at Jaye & Jaye in East Cleveland between 1958 and 1961.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > During that time the hobby shop sold many PFM locos.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I do not recall any PFM catalog
 that showed a Whitcomb,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > let alone a die cast version. PFM made many different
                                                                                                                                                                                  > brass locos but don't ever recall any diecast PFM and
                                                                                                                                                                                  > can't imagine a PFM diecast (of all things) Whitcomb
                                                                                                                                                                                  > created by Penn Line. That just wasn't their style
                                                                                                                                                                                  > of doing things. Not only that, I just can't imagine
                                                                                                                                                                                  > PFM being careless enough to leave any kind of latent
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Penn Line id on their product The Penn Line offering 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > was inexpensive - seems to me it was 9.95 (a princely 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > sum for a young boy with a paper route). Seems to me PFM stuff started in the $40 - $50 range for many offerings and there
                                                                                                                                                                                  > were several PFM articulateds that sold for over $100.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Unless I've missed something I haven't seen any
                                                                                                                                                                                  > pics of the "PFM Whitcomb".
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
 >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I do not have or know of the PFM diecast Whitcomb. Not knowing when it was made it might be newer then my cutoff point of 1975 and stretched to 1977. As for where the Whitcomb Penn Line dies got to I have some theory and some fact.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I know the first D-1 type Penn Line Whitcomb was a single stage die and that you could only make one at a time. It was hinged at the back and a clamp at the front locked it together and you poured the lead into the opening and had to let each cool before opening. A funny story about Penn Line relayed to me tells how the neighbors got mad at one of the owners. It was in his kitchen on a stove they melted the lead and poured the Whitcombs. There was a mold release used and this added smoke to the smell. They moved on. This die was used hard being one at a time and "wore out". The new die , D-2 type was, a more productive style die and used a different casting metal. I
 think this would be the die you are asking about. I will pose a question first. When Penn Line had the plastic bodies made for the Whitcomb who did them as Penn Line had no facilities for plastic production I know of ? Do you think the die for the metal D-2 type Whitcomb was used as a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > pattern for the plastic mold ? If so it was not in Penn Line's hands when they auctioned everything off. Ergo die disappeared . If the plastic body PL Whitcomb was made in Asia, or where ever PFM is from, could explain the possibility of the diecast PFM Penn Linme look alike. ( a little might be here )
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > The Sol Kramer, of then Varney, connection is to say the least wild after he and Lew English were the two main characters who bought Penn Line out. We have now found out from Jim Waterman that his dad Vince was there also. Remember Sol Kramer put out the Varney GG-1 using the PL dies but Lew English was to put out a Bowser version but didn't. Did they
 share the same die ? Also remember that Lew English / Bowser has the original Varney shortened pre war electric sold as a GG-1 type engine but is actually just a 4-8-4. (Not getting into that again). While Lew English has that die it sounds like it is worn out from use or time even though not many made.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I mention all of this to come back to the where about and the existence of the PL Whitcomb die I'm not sure anyone can be sure. If anyone knows come forth and tell us.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Knowing how many designs of HO equipment was passed on to other, sometimes going through many hands I don't think we could exclude the PFM cast Whitcomb as coming from the original Penn Line D-2 die. Unless someone associated very closely with PFM comes forward we might never know FOR SURE. as far as PL lettering appearing vaguely on the PFM I can't confirm or deny without one in hand.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > As for the B&O Docksider another story (longer) another time.
 A convoluted history of many companies at best where even Rivarossi's Docksider comes in. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Have a great day. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 10:54 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Hi Jim H. (and All),
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Thanks for providing us with album photos of the three different versions of the Penn Line Whitcomb yesterday. Neat little locomotives, at least one Class 1 RR, Susquehanna, used them at dockside in the 1950's and they are sought out by today's scale modelers as well. For anyone wanting to paint them in authentic RR
 colors, Prime Mover Decals has the right lettering for the NYS&W's snappy maroon and gray paint scheme.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jim, do you have the diecast Whitcomb imported by Pacific Fast Mail, PFM? D. Spanagel in the Guide to Varney noted that Lewis English traveled to Varney plant in Miami in the 1960's looking for the Penn Line Whitcomb dies (among others), with no luck (page 22). But by then, Jim Ryan's PFM had already advertised their Whitcomb version, and I always believed that PFM acquired the P.L. dies from Kramer of Varney. Besides the obvious identical appearance, the PFM full page introductory ad had a view of the inside of the body shell casting, and looking closely, some of the Penn Line lettering even shows! I always wondered why no one seemed to pick up on that. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > PFM's version also reverted back to the original detailing, removing some of the cast on handrails and such. Dies are very expensive, and PFM
 and their Japanese builder likely could not have afforded to create heavy steel multi-part dies for zamac casting a few hundred or even a thousand models sold at minimal price, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Curiously, PFF also advertised their B&O Docksider at the same time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > D. Spangel also noted that Lewis English could not locate those "High Headlight" Docksider dies, either. My theory is that they too, went to Japan via the same PFM acquisition. I have not compared them side by side, but will try to do so as a friend has one. But I think about this: It would have been unlikely that PFM or a small Japanese shop like Sakura could bankroll and amortize heavy sophisticated multi-part steel dies used in zamac casting to produce a reported 3,250 examples of the PFM Docksider(Brown Book), even with their low wages in the early 1960's. Varney produced the zamac Docksiders in the hundres of thousands, and who knows how many tens of
 thousands of Whitcombs Penn Line produced (but so many they could afford to change from D-1 to D-2 dies).
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Well, anyway, that is my theory of why Lew English never found the dies for the Penn Line Whitcomb and Varney High Headlight Docksider and what became of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I guess D. Spanagel never made the possible connection and asked Sol Kramer in his interviews. Maybe there is a record of the deal in PFM archives, if preserved?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >


                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9585
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb, Varney Docksider: PFM, Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Ray W,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       A quick clarification 
about any connection the Rivarossi Docksider had with Varney and whom ever else 
used it as the basis of a similar or copied engine. I only meant it as a side 
remark that others would bring the Rivarossi Dockside into conversations and 
cause people to THINK a connection. When I wrote my comment it was only meant to 
say that the Rivarossi Dockside just caused a more convoluted history not that 
it was copied from Varney in any way. That is why I said I didn't think a good 
idea to get into the history of the dockside while still discussing the PL 
Whitcomb. To many facts in the Whitcomb thread to start with. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 2:52 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line Whitcomb, 
  Varney Docksider: PFM, Rivarossi
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  That is a great story about casting those first white 
  metal Penn Line D-1's.  Thanks for sharing it.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Pacific Fast Mail:
                                                                                                                                                                                    The Pacific Fast 
  Mail (PFM) diecast metal Docksider and Whitcomb models were produced in 
  about the 1962, or 1962 to 1966 timeframe.  I will try to research the 
  dates and magazine ad dates in the next few days and maybe poke some holes in 
  or support my theories!  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Metal to Plastic  
  dies:  Yes, I have read that steel dies made for 
  casting zamac can be converted for use with some plastics, by chaging material 
  gates and air vents, but not as good as dies made specifically for plastic 
  molding from the beginning.  Lewis English, remarked in some 
  interview or history that Varney had converted the Casey Jones & Old Lady 
  tender die from zamac use to plastic, then Lewis English said he paid as much 
  to change them back for use in zamac molding!  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Varney Docksider - High Headlight 
  Versions:  I originally suspected that Varney 
  initially converted the original high headlight version Docksider dies to work 
  with plastic, but considering they were making hundreds of thousands of 
  models, and the high headlight was giving them problems (D. Spanagel), they 
  finally had a new die made, with lower headlight, for plastic molding, 
  (Spanagel says 1961).  But maybe they did make an all new plastic high 
  headlight Docksider die in 1956.  But either way, the original Varney 
  high headlight dies were surplus and could have been sold Jim 
  Ryan of PFM anytime after 1961 at the latest, well before his 1963 
  introduction of Japanese unit by Sakura.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Bowser Docksider:  
  In comparing them side by side, I have alwasy concluded that Lewis English 
  acquired the original Varney low headlight plastic dies as that is what he 
  printed in his company history; the Life Like versions were a inexpensive 
  copy commissioned by Kramer for production in the Pacific Rim area for 
  lower cost.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Rivarossi Docksider 
  roots: As far as I can determine, there was no actual 
  connection between the Rivarossi Docksider dies and Varney,  other than a 
  common prototype.  My source is an interview wth Mr. Alessandro 
  Rossi, Rivarossi's founder.  He said of the Rivarossi Docksider: 
  "The Dockside 0-4-0 was a proposal that originated from our American Importer. 
  There was requests for a versatile machine, that was also ideal for smaller 
  circuits. The first production of this Locomotive was rather ugly,  as it 
  was created from photo only, without original blueprints." (Note by Jay 
  W.: this was the ungainly OO/HO scale version imported by Polks in the late 
  1940's, clearly not remotely a Varney copy.)  "The second version was not 
  bad,"  Mr. Rossi added.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Interviewer, "The technical data, the measurements how did you obtain 
  them?"  Rossi continued, "For the American Locomotives, it was my 
  American importer that obtained the original blueprints." (Jay's note, first 
  the Polk Brothers, then later Bernie Paul of AHM.) "As I have said, the first 
  mould of the Dockside was obtained from photo or very little more, to respond 
  to the market, but as soon as we came into possession the original blueprints, 
  a new improved mould in HO was immediately put into production, according to 
  the US standards."  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, I have one of those late 1940's Rivarossi Docksiders, the body is OO 
  scale, the mechanism HO gauge, with a "sidewinder" three pole motor very much 
  like the British Trix-Twin motors, which Mr. Rossi said he used as a guide. 
  For more of his interview and information on other Vintage American style 
  Rivarossi like the MILW Baltic,  Dusty,  Erie, etc. see this Italian 
  website (in English as well):
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.rivaross i-memory. it/ENGLISH_ VERSION/Meeting_ Alessandro_ Rossi.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Back to the Penn Line 
  Whitcomb:  Your speculation on 
  why the Penn Line Whitcomb dies was not in the Penn Line 
  Bankruptcy sale  (Jan. 29, 1964) is interesing.  Another 
  speculation is that knowing they were going down the tubes, Penn Line's owner 
  might have also sold off the dies ahead of time to raise cash on a locomotive 
  they were no longer offering?  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hopefully some can add more to this.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  W. Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" 
  <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I do not have 
  or know of the PFM diecast Whitcomb. Not knowing when it was made it might be 
  newer then my cutoff point of 1975 and stretched to 1977. As for where the 
  Whitcomb Penn Line dies got to I have some theory and some fact.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I 
  know the first D-1 type Penn Line Whitcomb was a single stage die and that you 
  could only make one at a time. It was hinged at the back and a clamp at the 
  front locked it together and you poured the lead into the opening and had to 
  let each cool before opening. A funny story about Penn Line relayed to me 
  tells how the neighbors got mad at one of the owners. It was in his kitchen on 
  a stove they melted the lead and poured the Whitcombs. There was a mold 
  release used and this added smoke to the smell. They moved on. This die was 
  used hard being one at a time and "wore out". The new die , D-2 type was, a 
  more productive style die and used a different casting metal. I think this 
  would be the die you are asking about. I will pose a question first. When Penn 
  Line had the plastic bodies made for the Whitcomb who did them as Penn Line 
  had no facilities for plastic production I know of ? Do you think the die for 
  the metal D-2 type Whitcomb was used as a pattern for the plastic mold ? If so 
  it was not in Penn Line's hands when they auctioned everything off. Ergo die 
  disappeared . If the plastic body PL Whitcomb was made in Asia, or where ever 
  PFM is from, could explain the possibility of the diecast PFM Penn Linme look 
  alike. ( a little might be here )
                                                                                                                                                                                  > The Sol Kramer, of then Varney, 
  connection is to say the least wild after he and Lew English were the two main 
  characters who bought Penn Line out. We have now found out from Jim Waterman 
  that his dad Vince was there also. Remember Sol Kramer put out the Varney GG-1 
  using the PL dies but Lew English was to put out a Bowser version but didn't . 
  Did they share the same die ? Also remember that Lew English / Bowser has the 
  original Varney shortened pre war electric sold as a GG-1 type engine but is 
  actually just a 4-8-4. (Not getting into that again). While Lew English has 
  that die it sounds like it is worn out from use or time even though not many 
  made.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I mention all of this to come back to the where about and the 
  existence of the PL Whitcomb die I'm not sure anyone can be sure. If anyone 
  knows come forth and tell us.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Knowing how many designs of HO equipment 
  was passed on to other, sometimes going through many hands I don't think we 
  could exclude the PFM cast Whitcomb as coming from the original Penn Line D-2 
  die. Unless someone associated very closely with PFM comes forward we might 
  never know FOR SURE. as far as PL lettering appearing vaguely on the PFM I 
  can't confirm or deny without one in hand.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > As for the B&O 
  Docksider another story (longer) another time. A convoluted history of ma ny 
  companies at best where even Rivarossi's Docksider comes in. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Have a 
  great day. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 10:54 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Jim H. (and All),
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thanks for providing us with 
  album photos of the three different versions of the Penn Line Whitcomb 
  yesterday. Neat little locomotives, at least one Class 1 RR, Susquehanna, used 
  them at dockside in the 1950's and they are sought out by today's scale 
  modelers as well. For anyone wanting to paint them in authentic RR colors, 
  Prime Mover Decals has the right lettering for the NYS&W's snappy maroon 
  and gray paint scheme.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim, do you have the diecast Whitcomb 
  imported by Pacific Fast Mail, PFM? D. Spanagel in the Guide to Varney noted 
  tha t Lewis English traveled to Varney plant in Miami in the 1960's looking 
  for the Penn Line Whitcomb dies (among others), with no luck (page 22). But by 
  then, Jim Ryan's PFM had already advertised their Whitcomb version, and I 
  always believed that PFM acquired the P.L. dies from Kramer of Varney. Besides 
  the obvious identical appearance, the PFM full page introductory ad had a view 
  of the inside of the body shell casting, and looking closely, some of the Penn 
  Line lettering even shows! I always wondered why no one seemed to pick up on 
  that. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > PFM's version also reverted back to the original 
  detailing, removing some of the cast on handrails and such. Dies are very 
  expensive, and PFM and their Japanese builder likely could not have afforded 
  to create heavy steel multi-part dies for zamac casting a few hundred or even 
  a thousand models sold at minimal price, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Curiously, PFF 
  also advertised their B&O Docksider at the same time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > D. S pangel 
  also noted that Lewis English could not locate those "High Headlight" 
  Docksider dies, either. My theory is that they too, went to Japan via the same 
  PFM acquisition. I have not compared them side by side, but will try to do so 
  as a friend has one. But I think about this: It would have been unlikely that 
  PFM or a small Japanese shop like Sakura could bankroll and amortize heavy 
  sophisticated multi-part steel dies used in zamac casting to produce a 
  reported 3,250 examples of the PFM Docksider(Brown Book), even with their low 
  wages in the early 1960's. Varney produced the zamac Docksiders in the hundres 
  of thousands, and who knows how many tens of thousands of Whitcombs Penn Line 
  produced (but so many they could afford to change from D-1 to D-2 
  dies).
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Well, anyway, that is my theory of why Lew English 
  never found the dies for the Penn Line Whitcomb and Varney High Headlight 
  Docksider and what became of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I guess D. Spanagel never 
  mad e the possible connection and asked Sol Kramer in his interviews. Maybe 
  there is a record of the deal in PFM archives, if preserved?
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9586
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Docksiders : Varney, PFM, Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H., I realized that you were not implying a connection, other than common B&O prototype, but figured I'd get the subject of Rivarossi out of the way in case anyone else was wondering, since the subject was raised. Plus the Rivarossi Collector website I was just looking at yesterday had a good history of theirs, plus some good refernces to their early use of Bakelite plastics that came up with another subject.  I only originally mentioned the Sakura/PFM Docksider and its possible heritage, as it was featured in the same back cover PFM ad as the Whitcomb. W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
.  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Ray W,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>      A quick clarification about any connection the Rivarossi Docksider had with Varney and whom ever else used it as the basis of a similar or copied engine. I only meant it as a side remark that others would bring the Rivarossi Dockside into conversations and cause people to THINK a connection. When I wrote my comment it was only meant to say that the Rivarossi Dockside just caused a more convoluted history not that it was copied from Varney in any way. That is why I said I didn't think a good idea to get into the history of the dockside while still discussing the PL Whitcomb. To many facts in the Whitcomb thread to start with. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                    Jim H. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 2:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line Whitcomb, Varney Docksider: PFM, Rivarossi
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Jim H, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   That is a great story about casting those first white metal Penn Line D-1's.  Thanks for sharing it.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Pacific Fast Mail:  The Pacific Fast Mail (PFM) diecast metal Docksider and Whitcomb models were produced in about the 1962, or 1962 to 1966 timeframe.  I will try to research the dates and magazine ad dates in the next few days and maybe poke some holes in or support my theories!  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Metal to Plastic  dies:  Yes, I have read that steel dies made for casting zamac can be converted for use with some plastics, by chaging material gates and air vents, but not as good as dies made specifically for plastic molding from the beginning.  Lewis English, remarked in some interview or history that Varney had converted the Casey Jones & Old Lady tender die from zamac use to plastic, then Lewis English said he paid as much to change them back for use in zamac molding!  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Varney Docksider - High Headlight Versions:  I originally suspected that Varney initially converted the original high headlight version Docksider dies to work with plastic, but considering they were making hundreds of thousands of models, and the high headlight was giving them problems (D. Spanagel), they finally had a new die made, with lower headlight, for plastic molding, (Spanagel says 1961).  But maybe they did make an all new plastic high headlight Docksider die in 1956.  But either way, the original Varney high headlight dies were surplus and could have been sold Jim Ryan of PFM anytime after 1961 at the latest, well before his 1963 introduction of Japanese unit by Sakura.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Bowser Docksider:  In comparing them side by side, I have alwasy concluded that Lewis English acquired the original Varney low headlight plastic dies as that is what he printed in his company history; the Life Like versions were a inexpensive copy commissioned by Kramer for production in the Pacific Rim area for lower cost.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Rivarossi Docksider roots: As far as I can determine, there was no actual connection between the Rivarossi Docksider dies and Varney,  other than a common prototype.  My source is an interview wth Mr. Alessandro Rossi, Rivarossi's founder.  He said of the Rivarossi Docksider: "The Dockside 0-4-0 was a proposal that originated from our American Importer. There was requests for a versatile machine, that was also ideal for smaller circuits. The first production of this Locomotive was rather ugly,  as it was created from photo only, without original blueprints."(Note by Jay W.: this was the ungainly OO/HO scale version imported by Polks in the late 1940's, clearly not remotely a Varney copy.)  "The second version was not bad,"  Mr. Rossi added.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Interviewer, "The technical data, the measurements how did you obtain them?"  Rossi continued, "For the American Locomotives, it was my American importer that obtained the original blueprints." (Jay's note, first the Polk Brothers, then later Bernie Paul of AHM.) "As I have said, the first mould of the Dockside was obtained from photo or very little more, to respond to the market, but as soon as we came into possession the original blueprints, a new improved mould in HO was immediately put into production, according to the US standards."  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Jim, I have one of those late 1940's Rivarossi Docksiders, the body is OO scale, the mechanism HO gauge, with a "sidewinder" three pole motor very much like the British Trix-Twin motors, which Mr. Rossi said he used as a guide. For more of his interview and information on other Vintage American style Rivarossi like the MILW Baltic,  Dusty,  Erie, etc. see this Italian website (in English as well):
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/ENGLISH_VERSION/Meeting_Alessandro_Rossi.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Back to the Penn Line Whitcomb:  Your speculation on why the Penn Line Whitcomb dies was not in the Penn Line Bankruptcy sale  (Jan. 29, 1964) is interesing.  Another speculation is that knowing they were going down the tubes, Penn Line's owner might have also sold off the dies ahead of time to raise cash on a locomotive they were no longer offering?  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Hopefully some can add more to this.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   W. Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > I do not have or know of the PFM diecast Whitcomb. Not knowing when it was made it might be newer then my cutoff point of 1975 and stretched to 1977. As for where the Whitcomb Penn Line dies got to I have some theory and some fact.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > I know the first D-1 type Penn Line Whitcomb was a single stage die and that you could only make one at a time. It was hinged at the back and a clamp at the front locked it together and you poured the lead into the opening and had to let each cool before opening. A funny story about Penn Line relayed to me tells how the neighbors got mad at one of the owners. It was in his kitchen on a stove they melted the lead and poured the Whitcombs. There was a mold release used and this added smoke to the smell. They moved on. This die was used hard being one at a time and "wore out". The new die , D-2 type was, a more productive style die and used a different casting metal. I think this would be the die you are asking about. I will pose a question first. When Penn Line had the plastic bodies made for the Whitcomb who did them as Penn Line had no facilities for plastic production I know of ? Do you think the die for the metal D-2 type Whitcomb was used as a pattern for the plastic mold ? If so it was not in Penn Line's hands when they auctioned everything off. Ergo die disappeared . If the plastic body PL Whitcomb was made in Asia, or where ever PFM is from, could explain the possibility of the diecast PFM Penn Linme look alike. ( a little might be here )
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > The Sol Kramer, of then Varney, connection is to say the least wild after he and Lew English were the two main characters who bought Penn Line out. We have now found out from Jim Waterman that his dad Vince was there also. Remember Sol Kramer put out the Varney GG-1 using the PL dies but Lew English was to put out a Bowser version but didn't . Did they share the same die ? Also remember that Lew English / Bowser has the original Varney shortened pre war electric sold as a GG-1 type engine but is actually just a 4-8-4. (Not getting into that again). While Lew English has that die it sounds like it is worn out from use or time even though not many made.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > I mention all of this to come back to the where about and the existence of the PL Whitcomb die I'm not sure anyone can be sure. If anyone knows come forth and tell us.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Knowing how many designs of HO equipment was passed on to other, sometimes going through many hands I don't think we could exclude the PFM cast Whitcomb as coming from the original Penn Line D-2 die. Unless someone associated very closely with PFM comes forward we might never know FOR SURE. as far as PL lettering appearing vaguely on the PFM I can't confirm or deny without one in hand.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > As for the B&O Docksider another story (longer) another time. A convoluted history of ma ny companies at best where even Rivarossi's Docksider comes in. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Have a great day. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 10:54 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Hi Jim H. (and All),
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Thanks for providing us with album photos of the three different versions of the Penn Line Whitcomb yesterday. Neat little locomotives, at least one Class 1 RR, Susquehanna, used them at dockside in the 1950's and they are sought out by today's scale modelers as well. For anyone wanting to paint them in authentic RR colors, Prime Mover Decals has the right lettering for the NYS&W's snappy maroon and gray paint scheme.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jim, do you have the diecast Whitcomb imported by Pacific Fast Mail, PFM? D. Spanagel in the Guide to Varney noted tha t Lewis English traveled to Varney plant in Miami in the 1960's looking for the Penn Line Whitcomb dies (among others), with no luck (page 22). But by then, Jim Ryan's PFM had already advertised their Whitcomb version, and I always believed that PFM acquired the P.L. dies from Kramer of Varney. Besides the obvious identical appearance, the PFM full page introductory ad had a view of the inside of the body shell casting, and looking closely, some of the Penn Line lettering even shows! I always wondered why no one seemed to pick up on that. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > PFM's version also reverted back to the original detailing, removing some of the cast on handrails and such. Dies are very expensive, and PFM and their Japanese builder likely could not have afforded to create heavy steel multi-part dies for zamac casting a few hundred or even a thousand models sold at minimal price, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Curiously, PFF also advertised their B&O Docksider at the same time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > D. S pangel also noted that Lewis English could not locate those "High Headlight" Docksider dies, either. My theory is that they too, went to Japan via the same PFM acquisition. I have not compared them side by side, but will try to do so as a friend has one. But I think about this: It would have been unlikely that PFM or a small Japanese shop like Sakura could bankroll and amortize heavy sophisticated multi-part steel dies used in zamac casting to produce a reported 3,250 examples of the PFM Docksider(Brown Book), even with their low wages in the early 1960's. Varney produced the zamac Docksiders in the hundres of thousands, and who knows how many tens of thousands of Whitcombs Penn Line produced (but so many they could afford to change from D-1 to D-2 dies).
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Well, anyway, that is my theory of why Lew English never found the dies for the Penn Line Whitcomb and Varney High Headlight Docksider and what became of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > I guess D. Spanagel never mad e the possible connection and asked Sol Kramer in his interviews. Maybe there is a record of the deal in PFM archives, if preserved?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9587
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: John English Metal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 10:12 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: John English Metal
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I first learned of these when I bought my late 1940's magazines a few 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> years ago and saw his tiny photo ads.  The first I've seen "close up" were 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> in your main photo album, now the details here.  I had always associated 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the John English name with his later zamac diecast models, so it was 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> facinating that he first considered the soft lead-based metal and a PRR 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> prototype.  The Penn Line boys from nearby Boyertown, PA, acquied those 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> dies and produced them in the thousands, forever making that locomotive 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> synonomous with the Penn Line name.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've read that in the early days of HO the reason PRR prototypes were so 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
popular was that the Bepaire firebox provided extra room for the motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9588
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: John English metal steam
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 Some pictures of John English metal steam engines. I had just sent engine 
with tender pictures but wanted to break it up to separate pictures to be put in 
an album. The John English 4-6-2 Pacific along with the tender design was sold 
to Lionel who made some changes in the motor, drivers, and running gear (side 
rods, main rods, etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         First 
picture.          John English 
Mikado  This engine is one of a few I have that had modifications started 
when I got it. At the time it was the only decent one I could find. I planned to 
strip the modifications off but never got to it. John English steam 
engines came undecorated but I decided to paint and decal it for the Pennsy even 
though it has a tender that was changed (heaven forbid) to oil
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        Second 
picture.     John English metal tender sold with the 
Mikado.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        Third 
picture.        John English 4-6-2 
Pacific  Again sold undecorated and I painted and decaled. Same boiler as 
the Mikado
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        Fourth 
picture        Tender used with the JE 
Pacific. Same as the Mikado.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I haven't run these John English steam 
engines  but I have heard from others not to bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9589
						From: Karl Peters
						Date: 4/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  I have, [somewhere] both the Penn Line and PFM Whitcombs, along with the PFM Dockside.  It has been some years, but I recall both the PFM engines were good running engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Both of the PFM engines were featured in an ad on the back cover of the September 1965 issue of  RAILROAD MODEL CRAFTSMAN, my first model RR magazine. Years later, I managed to purchase both at a local train show. Did look at the ad, and there does appear to be some faint lettering on the inside of the Whitcomb; not sure what it says, for the cover is a bit worn after 44 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Will have to dig them up, and take a look. Will after a bit of cleaning and oiling, give them a run on my little test loop. I think they will like that.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9590
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Last of John English Metal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                            This will be it 
for pictures of John English metal items for my album. I have sent every John 
English metal item I know of. Anyone know of something else, for my 
knowledge, please let me know  ???.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                             First 
picture    John English metal FA-1. Has 8 wheel drive system with 
motor to truck gear drive and a drive shaft going to other truck. Copies of 
paperwork on HO seeker will show the drive fully. The John English FA-! and FB-1 
have different details from the bodies made by Lindsay and Hobbytown. One very 
noticeable area is the detail of the fuel tank on the bottom between the trucks. 
Another is the size of the porthole windows on 
the sides, near the top in the middle. Lindsay and Hobbytown are described as 
FA-2's or Hybrids.    Note:  The ladders on my A unit 
were broke and replaced with Lindsay ladders. You will see they would have been 
cast  on like the FB-1 unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                             Second 
picture       Dummy FB-1 You will see the ladders 
are cast on  the originals. These units like all John English items came 
undecorated. I know of no factory painted John English metal 
items.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                              
Picture 3 & 4    John English metal Standard heavyweight 
passenger cars   Combine and Coach.  Again were undecorated and I 
painted and decaled. I had just sent similar pictures the other day for other 
reasons but wanted these for the album of John English metal Lennard S is 
doing.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        These passenger 
cars were the start of a lineage of passenger cars still going on today I 
am told. The design of these and the later HObbyline plastic streamlined 
passenger cars were used by many companies as I have partly described before 
including Penn Line, Varney and Lifelike. That saga is long and needs it's 
own story to properly tell.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                        After Easter I will 
start sending pictures of HObbyline (John English plastic) for that Album. I 
hope to do many companies ( some small in types of product made and some odd / 
mostly unknown ) including Varney and Mantua both of which will be 
extensive ( even without any freight cars ). Hope any or all pictures / 
albums will be used, with the HOseeker site, to help people ID these HO 
items.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          Have a 
nice 
weekend.                                           
Jim H   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9591
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 4/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Remagnetizing: Was- Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  I remagnetize permanent magnet motors with a hefty special purpose  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
electromagnetic device that was produced commercially locally by a  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
skilled modeler/tinkerer  in the 1970s, which is also when I purchased  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
and first used it.  Regretfully, I cannot recall who made it (he did  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
not put his name on the machine or the printed directions), nor can  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
anyone else. It consists of two hefty electromagnetic poles, one fixed  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
and one moveable between which the motor to be re-magnetized must be  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
placed.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
To remagnetize a motor the magnet must be first placed between two  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
magnetic poles so oriented that the "norths" and "souths" of both  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
motor and remagnetizer are exactly the same.   This is usually easily  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
done by feel by holding the motor between the two poles of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
electromagnet and powering the electro magnetic poles at very low  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
power.  Then you place the correctly oriented motor between the  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
electromagnetic poles again and move the  poles press right up against  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the sides of the motor magnet so that there is little or no space  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
between the surfaces of the electromagnets and the motor magnet, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the greatest possible contact between surfaces can be attained.  You  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
then power the electromagnet for a specified time, and the motor  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
becomes remagnetized.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
A problem is posed when a rounded magnet (V-2, LIndsay, early can  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
motors) needs remagnetizing inasmuch as magnetic flux does not flow  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
well through air (I am using pretty naive electrical terms), and in  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
these instances the flats of the electromagnets can touch tangentially  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
only small spots on the sides of the motor magnets. To correct this,  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
you have to artificially bulk-up these rounded motors by surrounding  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
them with a bolus of  packed steel wool, or other similar steel or  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
iron material.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  The beautifully made early Mashima and other make of can motors used  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
steel permanent magnets, not the more familiar- and current- ceramic  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
magnets. I successfully resuscitated two of these motors by fitting  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
them inside a giant steel nut that I had successfully filed out to  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
size.  The flats on the side of the nut were large enough such that  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
there was solid steel contact between the electromagnetic poles and  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the surfaces of the motor magnets.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
The strength of the electromagnets are such that the user would not  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
want to ever hazard powering them up without the magnets being blocked  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
or completely closed. The closing pressure is of hand-crushing power.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I convert some of my really fine old HO power to DCC, and the  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
remagnetizer has made it possible in instances  to restore older  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
PIttman and other PM motors to such efficiency that they can be safely  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
used with standard decoders.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9592
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Remagnetizing: Was- Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gauldin
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Ok Denny,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm sold.. How much to run my V-2 through your contraption?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Let me know...
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Seriously...
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:49:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing: Was- Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I remagnetize permanent magnet motors with a hefty special purpose 
                                                                                                                                                                                  electromagnetic device that was produced commercially locally by a 
                                                                                                                                                                                  skilled modeler/tinkerer in the 1970s, which is also when I purchased 
                                                                                                                                                                                  and first used it. Regretfully, I cannot recall who made it (he did 
                                                                                                                                                                                  not put his name on the machine or the printed directions), nor can 
                                                                                                                                                                                  anyone else. It consists of two hefty electromagnetic poles, one fixed 
                                                                                                                                                                                  and one moveable between which the motor to be re-magnetized must be 
                                                                                                                                                                                  placed.

                                                                                                                                                                                  To remagnetize a motor the magnet must be first placed between two 
                                                                                                                                                                                  magnetic poles so oriented that the "norths" and "souths" of both 
                                                                                                                                                                                  motor and remagnetizer are exactly the same. This is usually easily 
                                                                                                                                                                                  done by feel by holding the motor between the two poles of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  electromagnet and powering the electro magnetic poles at very low 
                                                                                                                                                                                  power. Then you place the correctly oriented motor between the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  electromagnetic poles
 again and move the poles press right up against 
                                                                                                                                                                                  the sides of the motor magnet so that there is little or no space 
                                                                                                                                                                                  between the surfaces of the electromagnets and the motor magnet, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  the greatest possible contact between surfaces can be attained. You 
                                                                                                                                                                                  then power the electromagnet for a specified time, and the motor 
                                                                                                                                                                                  becomes remagnetized.

                                                                                                                                                                                  A problem is posed when a rounded magnet (V-2, LIndsay, early can 
                                                                                                                                                                                  motors) needs remagnetizing inasmuch as magnetic flux does not flow 
                                                                                                                                                                                  well through air (I am using pretty naive electrical terms), and in 
                                                                                                                                                                                  these instances the flats of the electromagnets can touch tangentially 
                                                                                                                                                                                  only small spots on the sides of the motor magnets. To correct this, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  you have to artificially bulk-up these rounded motors by surrounding 
                                                                                                                                                                                  them with a bolus of packed steel wool, or other similar steel or 
                                                                                                                                                                                  iron material.

                                                                                                                                                                                  The beautifully made early Mashima and other make of can motors used
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  steel permanent magnets, not the more familiar- and current- ceramic 
                                                                                                                                                                                  magnets. I successfully resuscitated two of these motors by fitting 
                                                                                                                                                                                  them inside a giant steel nut that I had successfully filed out to 
                                                                                                                                                                                  size. The flats on the side of the nut were large enough such that 
                                                                                                                                                                                  there was solid steel contact between the electromagnetic poles and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  the surfaces of the motor magnets.

                                                                                                                                                                                  The strength of the electromagnets are such that the user would not 
                                                                                                                                                                                  want to ever hazard powering them up without the magnets being blocked 
                                                                                                                                                                                  or completely closed. The closing pressure is of hand-crushing power.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I convert some of my really fine old HO power to DCC, and the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  remagnetizer has made it possible in instances to restore older 
                                                                                                                                                                                  PIttman and other PM motors to such efficiency that they can be safely 
                                                                                                                                                                                  used with standard decoders.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny


                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9593
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Karl P.,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for the confirmation of the PFM Whitcomb version and RMC issue date. Last night, I went though all my early 1960's mags and that is one of four I had pulled at some time ago to make copies of articles and ads to send to a friend, and had not re-shelved, so was looking in all the other places it could be, LOL!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I also seem to remember that PFM might not have called it a Whitcomb in that ad, posibly attributing it to another prototype manufacturer, but have to check.  However, the model is a highly accurate, middle years production 25-30 ton Whitcomb, as can be seen in some of these prototype photos:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/diesel96.html
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Karl Peters <krlpeters@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have, [somewhere] both the Penn Line and PFM Whitcombs, along with the PFM Dockside.  It has been some years, but I recall both the PFM engines were good running engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Both of the PFM engines were featured in an ad on the back cover of the September 1965 issue of  RAILROAD MODEL CRAFTSMAN, my first model RR magazine. Years later, I managed to purchase both at a local train show. Did look at the ad, and there does appear to be some faint lettering on the inside of the Whitcomb; not sure what it says, for the cover is a bit worn after 44 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Will have to dig them up, and take a look. Will after a bit of cleaning and oiling, give them a run on my little test loop. I think they will like that.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9594
						From: trainliker
						Date: 4/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  I checked PFM catalogs and price lists for that period and could not find any mention.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
However, the booklet "Pacific Fast Mails... 25 Years of Fine Models" has it listed in Chapter 4 "Standard and Narrow Gauge Diesel and Electric Locomotives" as:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
'Plymouth' Switcher [ Prototype - their single quote marks ]
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sakura-K.O. [ Exporter-Maker ]
                                                                                                                                                                                  
HO [ scale ]
                                                                                                                                                                                  
P [ class - which means "production" versus "crown" etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
1965 [ Year ]
                                                                                                                                                                                  
300 [ Quantity ]
                                                                                                                                                                                  
$9.95 [ Price ]
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
There is also the note: "Body and cab are one piece Zamac casting."
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Karl P.,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Thanks for the confirmation of the PFM Whitcomb version and RMC issue date. Last night, I went though all my early 1960's mags and that is one of four I had pulled at some time ago to make copies of articles and ads to send to a friend, and had not re-shelved, so was looking in all the other places it could be, LOL!
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I also seem to remember that PFM might not have called it a Whitcomb in that ad, posibly attributing it to another prototype manufacturer, but have to check.  However, the model is a highly accurate, middle years production 25-30 ton Whitcomb, as can be seen in some of these prototype photos:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://www.northeast.railfan.net/diesel96.html
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Karl Peters <krlpeters@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I have, [somewhere] both the Penn Line and PFM Whitcombs, along with the PFM Dockside.  It has been some years, but I recall both the PFM engines were good running engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Both of the PFM engines were featured in an ad on the back cover of the September 1965 issue of  RAILROAD MODEL CRAFTSMAN, my first model RR magazine. Years later, I managed to purchase both at a local train show. Did look at the ad, and there does appear to be some faint lettering on the inside of the Whitcomb; not sure what it says, for the cover is a bit worn after 44 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Will have to dig them up, and take a look. Will after a bit of cleaning and oiling, give them a run on my little test loop. I think they will like that.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9595
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck K. & All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Yes, that's it, they called it a Plymouth in the ad. Thanks for supplying those details.  I intially laughed when I first saw that ad a few years back as I thought it odd that PFM would actually get the prototype manufacturer wrong. But back then, in the early 1960's there was not much scholarship on the many different builders of industrial "critters" like there is today, either, but Whitcombs, like Penn Line's, looked very different from most Plymouths, even to the untrained eye. Or possibly they wanted to distance their identical model, save a few brass details, from Penn Line's?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
That low number imported, 300, explains why I was so badly outbid a couple of years ago on eBay as well.  A neat sort of asterisk locomotive for the PFM collector as well, I guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
W Jay W.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Ps. In case anyone is trying to I.D. Lindsay's (later Kemtron's) diecast zamac "Stubby" side-rodded critter, that model is based on a prototype locomotive series manufactured by Vulcan Locomotive of Wilkes Barre, PA: neither a Whitcomb or Plymouth!
                                                                                                                                                                                  
###
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainliker" <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I checked PFM catalogs and price lists for that period and could not find any mention.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> However, the booklet "Pacific Fast Mails... 25 Years of Fine Models" has it listed in Chapter 4 "Standard and Narrow Gauge Diesel and Electric Locomotives" as:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 'Plymouth' Switcher [ Prototype - their single quote marks ]
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sakura-K.O. [ Exporter-Maker ]
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> HO [ scale ]
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> P [ class - which means "production" versus "crown" etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 1965 [ Year ]
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 300 [ Quantity ]
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> $9.95 [ Price ]
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> There is also the note: "Body and cab are one piece Zamac casting."
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Hi Karl P.,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Thanks for the confirmation of the PFM Whitcomb version and RMC issue date. Last night, I went though all my early 1960's mags and that is one of four I had pulled at some time ago to make copies of articles and ads to send to a friend, and had not re-shelved, so was looking in all the other places it could be, LOL!
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I also seem to remember that PFM might not have called it a Whitcomb in that ad, posibly attributing it to another prototype manufacturer, but have to check.  However, the model is a highly accurate, middle years production 25-30 ton Whitcomb, as can be seen in some of these prototype photos:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/diesel96.html
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Karl Peters <krlpeters@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > I have, [somewhere] both the Penn Line and PFM Whitcombs, along with the PFM Dockside.  It has been some years, but I recall both the PFM engines were good running engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > Both of the PFM engines were featured in an ad on the back cover of the September 1965 issue of  RAILROAD MODEL CRAFTSMAN, my first model RR magazine. Years later, I managed to purchase both at a local train show. Did look at the ad, and there does appear to be some faint lettering on the inside of the Whitcomb; not sure what it says, for the cover is a bit worn after 44 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > Will have to dig them up, and take a look. Will after a bit of cleaning and oiling, give them a run on my little test loop. I think they will like that.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9596
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Lindsay "Stubby"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                        I was eventually 
going to send pictures to make an album of Lindsay products. I thought I would 
send this early since it was mentioned that the real thing was made in 
Wilkes Barre. This is the Lindsay "Stubby". My information says made 
1950-1956. I understand a company called ROBICO (which I never found out what it 
stands for other then CO for company) made it first. The years I cited might 
include when ROBICO marketed it.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     Lennard 
S       Save this picture till I do the other 
Lindsay engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9597
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 4/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   > I also seem to remember that PFM might not have called it a Whitcomb
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> in that ad, posibly attributing it to another prototype manufacturer,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> but have to check.  However, the model is a highly accurate, middle
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> years production 25-30 ton Whitcomb, as can be seen in some of these
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> prototype photos:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://www.northeast.railfan.net/diesel96.html
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      OK, now you've got me curious as to whether these two old switchers 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
that I photographed at a local pipe yard are Whitcombs.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Clinton lied. A man might forget where he parks or where he
                                                                                                                                                                                  
lives, but he never forgets oral sex, no matter how bad it is.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9598
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  I think if I had one, I'd be scribing in doors in the back of the cab, and cutting in windows.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
That could be really neat if it had more looking-out spots!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   >       I was eventually going to send pictures to make an album of Lindsay products. I thought I would send this early since it was mentioned that the real thing was made in Wilkes Barre. This is the Lindsay "Stubby". My information says made 1950-1956. I understand a company called ROBICO (which I never found out what it stands for other then CO for company) made it first. The years I cited might include when ROBICO marketed it.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>    Lennard S       Save this picture till I do the other Lindsay engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9599
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
You "Stubby" has the nicely detailed aftermarket lost wax brass pilot ends that were produced as an upgrade by Kemtron. The original Lindsay/Robico ends were a plainer diecast zamac like the rest of the kit.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
And believe it or not, those same deluxed brass pilot castings, as well as the headlights and markers are still available through Kemtron's successor, Precision Scale Models.  I ordered some about 2-3 years ago and can probably dig out the correct parts numbers for anyone wanting to order through their dealer. I order through my local shop, MRPO in NJ, as Precision has a $20. minimum for direct sales.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
My one almost complete Stubby is missing a rear frame to body bracket and the step castings, but they are not available, so I keep looking in old parts lots and show junk boxes.   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Actually, Bob Lindsay introduced and sold his "Stubby" along with the "TT" Scale "Tiny Tim" B&O Docksider in the late 1940's, both very cleverly used the same basic frame and drivers, the frame being relieved for the narrower TT gauge Docksider, and including the add-on cylinder casting and main rods. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Then Robico took over, and I have not been able to figure out the name as well, or who the owners were, though the address is near to Lindsay's. I have a folder of copies of most of the Lindsay and Robioco ads in chronological basis, and will post the list later tomorrow for those interested. Robico also sold some small freight cars and turntable that were also sould under the Cliff Line name.  After Robico, Kemtron acquired and carried "Stubby" during the later 1950's and offered it in HO, as well as HOn3 versions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I understand that Stubby's body dies passed to another manufacturer and are still in existance, but it seems that the frame and other parts dies remained with Kemtron and now possibly Precision if they survived. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>       I was eventually going to send pictures to make an album of Lindsay products. I thought I would send this early since it was mentioned that the real thing was made in Wilkes Barre. This is the Lindsay "Stubby". My information says made 1950-1956. I understand a company called ROBICO (which I never found out what it stands for other then CO for company) made it first. The years I cited might include when ROBICO marketed it.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>    Lennard S       Save this picture till I do the other Lindsay engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9600
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  A few weeks ago as part of a discussion on a Crescent E-6 on eBay, I
                                                                                                                                                                                  
mentioned one I have that's brass sheet with a wooden nose.  Jim, you made a
                                                                                                                                                                                  
comment some months back in another thread that leads to believe me you've
                                                                                                                                                                                  
seen one of these before.  I finally found the pictures tucked away in a
                                                                                                                                                                                  
corner of my G drive (every time I replace computes, instead of transferring
                                                                                                                                                                                  
old data I just piggyback the old drive, my current machine has THREE hard
                                                                                                                                                                                  
drives),
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Anyway, I'm curious as to what this puppy is.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9601
						From: Karl Peters
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Remagnetizing: Was- Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  IIRC, there was an article in Model Railroader, sometime in the 1970's on building a remagnettizer.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9602
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm kind 
of a real stickler for keeping my vintage collection pieces as they were first 
made. Although I sometimes have to buy pieces that have modifications just to 
get a sample I won't add to them.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          Yet I 
know there are those who like to do this to make the item ( in this case 
the Lindsay Stubby) a more realistic engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                               .
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:38 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lindsay 
  "Stubby"
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  I think if I had one, I'd be scribing in doors in the back of the cab, and 
  cutting in windows.
                                                                                                                                                                                  That could be really neat if it had more looking-out 
  spots!

                                                                                                                                                                                  > I was eventually going to send pictures to make an album of 
  Lindsay products. I thought I would send this early since it was mentioned 
  that the real thing was made in Wilkes Barre. This is the Lindsay "Stubby". My 
  information says made 1950-1956. I understand a company called ROBICO (which I 
  never found out what it stands for other then CO for company) made it first. 
  The years I cited might include when ROBICO marketed it.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Lennard S 
  Save this picture till I do the other Lindsay engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9603
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: GP-9 Drive (Lionel)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                  curmudgeon,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       The pictures I have sent 
are a drive mechanism that I think is what you described in an Email (belt / 
gear drive). This type of drive was used after Lionel ended it's association 
with Athearn and made it's own HO. This came from an E-33  with Lionel 
body / Lionel Drive. Lionel offered NYC Lightning Strip GP-9 painted 
bodies.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       As for the difference in 
trucks.One type of truck was on the Athearn GP-9 Hi-F frames (metal and silver 
in color) and Lionel had their trucks that were a darkened metal and different 
style. Horn placement on the Lionel GP-9 bodies differed from the Athearn 
also.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9604
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           I 
have no reason to disbelieve your thoughts about my Lindsay Stubby being a 
Kemtron. So you are saying Kemtron didn't just make parts for the Lindsay Stubby 
but actually sold the whole Lindsay Stubby as Kemtron  ??? I have no 
paperwork for this engine and have never seen any over the years. I based it on 
being Lindsay as the only picture and comments came from Lennahan's Locomotive 
Lexicon Part II. It has a side view picture of the Lindsay Stubby. Can't see the 
pilots to see there was a difference. He also listed it as made 1950-1956. While 
Mr. Lenahan was not always 100% correct he was the only guide I had to go on. I 
had no reason not to believe him  either.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          I had 
always thought ROBICO  (who ever there are) was actually the first producer 
of the Stubby and Lindsay took it over. However your time line has it Lindsay, 
ROBICO and the Kemtron.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         Another thing 
that never caused me to wonder about brass pilots being on  what is 
described as a Zamac kit was Lindsay's all cast brass model of 
an Electromotive 1000 HP Switcher L-400. ( While I have this mint in a 
kit and will include when I photograph my Lindsay Album it is a story for 
another day)  I cite this as a reason not to have questioned the cast brass 
pilots on the Stubby and still being Lindsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                            Live and 
learn
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:53 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lindsay 
  "Stubby"
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H.,

                                                                                                                                                                                  You "Stubby" has the nicely detailed aftermarket lost wax 
  brass pilot ends that were produced as an upgrade by Kemtron. The original 
  Lindsay/Robico ends were a plainer diecast zamac like the rest of the kit. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  And believe it or not, those same deluxed brass pilot castings, as 
  well as the headlights and markers are still available through Kemtron's 
  successor, Precision Scale Models. I ordered some about 2-3 years ago and can 
  probably dig out the correct parts numbers for anyone wanting to order through 
  their dealer. I order through my local shop, MRPO in NJ, as Precision has a 
  $20. minimum for direct sales.

                                                                                                                                                                                  My one almost complete Stubby is missing 
  a rear frame to body bracket and the step castings, but they are not 
  available, so I keep looking in old parts lots and show junk boxes. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Actually, Bob Lindsay introduced and sold his "Stubby" along with the 
  "TT" Scale "Tiny Tim" B&O Docksider in the late 1940's, both very cleverly 
  used the same basic frame and drivers, the frame being relieved for the 
  narrower TT gauge Docksider, and including the add-on cylinder casting and 
  main rods. 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Then Robico took over, and I have not been able to figure 
  out the name as well, or who the owners were, though the address is near to 
  Lindsay's. I have a folder of copies of most of the Lindsay and Robioco ads in 
  chronological basis, and will post the list later tomorrow for those 
  interested. Robico also sold some small freight cars and turntable that were 
  also sould under the Cliff Line name. After Robico, Kemtron acquired and 
  carried "Stubby" during the later 1950's and offered it in HO, as well as HOn3 
  versions. 

                                                                                                                                                                                  I understand that Stubby's body dies passed to another 
  manufacturer and are still in existance, but it seems that the frame and other 
  parts dies remained with Kemtron and now possibly Precision if they survived. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  W Jay W

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I was eventually 
  going to send pictures to make an album of Lindsay products. I thought I would 
  send this early since it was mentioned that the real thing was made in Wilkes 
  Barre. This is the Lindsay "Stubby". My information says made 1950-1956. I 
  understand a company called ROBICO (which I never found out what it stands for 
  other then CO for company) made it first. The years I cited might include when 
  ROBICO marketed it.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Lennard S Save this picture till I do the other 
  Lindsay engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9605
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6 [7 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           
Give me a little time to look closely at the pictures. In the mean time can you 
tell me more about the thread that I previously mentioned that you feel might be 
about the engine pictures you sent. I will however say now that the side frame 
pictures you sent look almost like brass or tin sheet and not very thick or 
heavy. Am I seeing this right   ????  If so these are not something I've seen before. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:30 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass 
  & wood E-6 [7 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  A few weeks ago as part of a discussion on a Crescent E-6 on eBay, 
  I
                                                                                                                                                                                  mentioned one I have that's brass sheet with a wooden nose. Jim, you made 
  a
                                                                                                                                                                                  comment some months back in another thread that leads to believe me 
  you've
                                                                                                                                                                                  seen one of these before. I finally found the pictures tucked away 
  in a
                                                                                                                                                                                  corner of my G drive (every time I replace computes, instead of 
  transferring
                                                                                                                                                                                  old data I just piggyback the old drive, my current machine 
  has THREE hard
                                                                                                                                                                                  drives),

                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, I'm curious as to what this puppy 
  is.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9606
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  It was back when we were talking about various E-Units, I know Dallas 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
modelcraft had come up, as well as Crescent, and you had mentioned in 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
passing one that had a wooden nose (which this is.).  The body itself is 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
brass.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
As far as the truck sideframes, they're castings, but very light, too light 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
to be brass.  I haven't tried to strip them to see bare metal, but it is 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
something non-ferrous, maybe zinc or aluminum.  I know where they are, I'll 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
try to look at them later today.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 6:45 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
         Give me a little time to look closely at the pictures. In the mean 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
time can you tell me more about the thread that I previously mentioned that 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
you feel might be about the engine pictures you sent. I will however say now 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
that the side frame pictures you sent look almost like brass or tin sheet 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
and not very thick or heavy. Am I seeing this right   ????  If so these are 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
not something I've seen before.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Subject: [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6 [7 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  [Attachment(s) from Don Dellmann included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  A few weeks ago as part of a discussion on a Crescent E-6 on eBay, I
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  mentioned one I have that's brass sheet with a wooden nose. Jim, you made 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
a
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  comment some months back in another thread that leads to believe me you've
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  seen one of these before. I finally found the pictures tucked away in a
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  corner of my G drive (every time I replace computes, instead of 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
transferring
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  old data I just piggyback the old drive, my current machine has THREE hard
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  drives),
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Anyway, I'm curious as to what this puppy is.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9607
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  HI Rick,
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  The bigger one is a GE 44 tonner.  I do
not know about the other.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009
12:35 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Penn
Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  [Attachment(s) from Rick Jones included
below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  the_plainsman
wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   > I also seem to remember that PFM might not have called it a Whitcomb
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> in that ad, posibly attributing it to another prototype manufacturer,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> but have to check. However, the model is a highly accurate, middle
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> years production 25-30 ton Whitcomb, as can be seen in some of these
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> prototype photos:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://www.northeas t.railfan. net/diesel96. html
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  OK, now you've got me curious as to whether these two old switchers 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
that I photographed at a local pipe yard are Whitcombs.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
_._,_.___
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachment(s) from Rick
Jones 
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  2 of 2 Photo(s)

                                                                                                                                                                                   






                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9608
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Good Morning Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Yes Jim, no doubt, Bob Lindsay designed and proudly first sold "Stubby" as part of his Lindsay line in the late 1940's, I will send you a copy of the introductory advertisement as I have an extra copy right here. (I also have an extra acceptable copy of a copy of the original illustrated instructions and parts list for the original Lindsay version and will send them along later today.)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sometime later will scan it for all via HOSeeker --when that scanner of mine gets operational, but no idea if it will be readable from the copy of a copy. If anyone else wants them now, email me off line and I'll make more and send them after Wed. No cost, as they were made for me a couple years ago by another collector, who is actually a member here, but seems to be inactive right now!  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
After Lindsay, the model was advertised and sold by Robico, although the last Lindsay ad I found was dated in 1951.  Not really sure what that Robico was, perhaps only a marketing company that Lindsay and others may have had an interest in, 100% speculation on my part, but even Robico's box copied Lindsay's box design to a "T", except for the name.   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
After the Robico period, the "Stubby" and also much of Lindsay's own diesel line (zamac and brass), motors and truck sideframes and parts became part of Kemtron's line.  Throught the 1950's and early 1960's Kemtron kept all of the Lindsay part numbers, adding an "L" in front of them.  Kemtron sold the Stubby as an all zamac kit, and then sold the upgraded pilot castings as a separate item, in brass as well as black plastic (Kemtron noted that the black plastic version made it easier to insulate the couplers from the frame.)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I do not have earlier Kemtron catalogs, but know Stubby was included in both HO and HOn3 versions in Kemtron catalogs #4 and #5 (I am missing #6) and it was gone by the mid-1960's #7, but as I said, the brass (and now gray colored) plastic pilots and other brass detail parts have been continued in Precision Scale's line into this century. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Later, (in the 1950's?) hobbytown of Boston then acquired some of the original Lindsay zamac casting dies from Kemtron, like for the Alco FA-2 and FB-2, and hobbytown later maintained a long working relationship with Kemtron/Precision Scale as a source for brass parts, including the RS-3 handrail stanchions and brass Alco FA&FB steps.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
As far as who made the pattern for Stubby's brass accessory ends, I do not know, it might have been Lindsay.  However, by the time Kemtron issued catalog #4, they had the most talented group of model engineers and builders ever employed by one small firm: John Anderson and Harry Parker (both later CalScale and this was after John Anderson was associated with Red Ball); Bruce Bechtold, who later established the Back Shop line of lost wax parts, and Cliff Grandt, who's later firm continues to this day.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Personally, I feel like you do, and try to keep a model as original as possible.  But I don't mind vintage aftermarket parts that were sold around the time that the original was available, and would likely be used, like those lost wax steps on the John English FA-1 and FB-1 units you described earlier.  Then too, if I see a almost unknown old cast brass locomotive shell machined and married to a recent hobbytown chassis, I'm not going to pass that up either - but that story is for another day, when I have digital photos to post!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>          I have no reason to disbelieve your thoughts about my Lindsay Stubby being a Kemtron. So you are saying Kemtron didn't just make parts for the Lindsay Stubby but actually sold the whole Lindsay Stubby as Kemtron  ??? I have no paperwork for this engine and have never seen any over the years. I based it on being Lindsay as the only picture and comments came from Lennahan's Locomotive Lexicon Part II. It has a side view picture of the Lindsay Stubby. Can't see the pilots to see there was a difference. He also listed it as made 1950-1956. While Mr. Lenahan was not always 100% correct he was the only guide I had to go on. I had no reason not to believe him  either.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>         I had always thought ROBICO  (who ever there are) was actually the first producer of the Stubby and Lindsay took it over. However your time line has it Lindsay, ROBICO and the Kemtron.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>        Another thing that never caused me to wonder about brass pilots being on  what is described as a Zamac kit was Lindsay's all cast brass model of an Electromotive 1000 HP Switcher L-400. ( While I have this mint in a kit and will include when I photograph my Lindsay Album it is a story for another day)  I cite this as a reason not to have questioned the cast brass pilots on the Stubby and still being Lindsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>           Live and learn
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   You "Stubby" has the nicely detailed aftermarket lost wax brass pilot ends that were produced as an upgrade by Kemtron. The original Lindsay/Robico ends were a plainer diecast zamac like the rest of the kit. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   And believe it or not, those same deluxed brass pilot castings, as well as the headlights and markers are still available through Kemtron's successor, Precision Scale Models. I ordered some about 2-3 years ago and can probably dig out the correct parts numbers for anyone wanting to order through their dealer. I order through my local shop, MRPO in NJ, as Precision has a $20. minimum for direct sales.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   My one almost complete Stubby is missing a rear frame to body bracket and the step castings, but they are not available, so I keep looking in old parts lots and show junk boxes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Actually, Bob Lindsay introduced and sold his "Stubby" along with the "TT" Scale "Tiny Tim" B&O Docksider in the late 1940's, both very cleverly used the same basic frame and drivers, the frame being relieved for the narrower TT gauge Docksider, and including the add-on cylinder casting and main rods. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Then Robico took over, and I have not been able to figure out the name as well, or who the owners were, though the address is near to Lindsay's. I have a folder of copies of most of the Lindsay and Robioco ads in chronological basis, and will post the list later tomorrow for those interested. Robico also sold some small freight cars and turntable that were also sould under the Cliff Line name. After Robico, Kemtron acquired and carried "Stubby" during the later 1950's and offered it in HO, as well as HOn3 versions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   I understand that Stubby's body dies passed to another manufacturer and are still in existance, but it seems that the frame and other parts dies remained with Kemtron and now possibly Precision if they survived. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > I was eventually going to send pictures to make an album of Lindsay products. I thought I would send this early since it was mentioned that the real thing was made in Wilkes Barre. This is the Lindsay "Stubby". My information says made 1950-1956. I understand a company called ROBICO (which I never found out what it stands for other then CO for company) made it first. The years I cited might include when ROBICO marketed it.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Lennard S Save this picture till I do the other Lindsay engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9609
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Rick,  Agree that the larger locomotive is a GE, has the right cab shape, hood and truck sideframes too, from what I can make out.  The second one could very well be a Whitcomb, as the cab configuration seems to be very similar.  Industrial "critters" were often heavilly modified at times, adding to ID problems.  But many of the Whitcombs that I've seen on that website I linked to earlier have a vertical trim piece centered over the front radiator, with letters spelling out, top to bottom, "WHITCOMB" and your photo seems to show that.  I'd say 80% certain thats what the little unit is. W Jay W 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I also seem to remember that PFM might not have called it a Whitcomb
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > in that ad, posibly attributing it to another prototype manufacturer,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > but have to check.  However, the model is a highly accurate, middle
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > years production 25-30 ton Whitcomb, as can be seen in some of these
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > prototype photos:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/diesel96.html
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     OK, now you've got me curious as to whether these two old switchers 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> that I photographed at a local pipe yard are Whitcombs.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Clinton lied. A man might forget where he parks or where he
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> lives, but he never forgets oral sex, no matter how bad it is.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9610
						From: Ray Hobin
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Remagnetizing:
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny Anspach
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>I remagnetize permanent magnet motors with a hefty special purpose  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>electromagnetic device that was produced commercially locally by a  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>skilled modeler/tinkerer  in the 1970s, which is also when I purchased  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>and first used it.  Regretfully, I cannot recall who made it (he did  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>not put his name on the machine or the printed directions), nor can  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>anyone else. It consists of two hefty electromagnetic poles, one fixed  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>and one moveable between which the motor to be re-magnetized must be  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>placed.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  A friend of mine made a similar "apparatus" for me in the early 70s. The
                                                                                                                                                                                  
hefty magnetic poles he used were old TV choke coils he purchased in
                                                                                                                                                                                  
from a used electronic shop in D.C. area.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Have no idea whether it works or not as not sure how one can measure
                                                                                                                                                                                  
performance "before" and "after" the motor gets "zapped". 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Ray Hobin
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9611
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 4/11/2009 8:51:51 AM EDT, Chuck Higdon wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  The bigger one is a GE 44 tonner.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  --------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Sorry, Chuck, but it's definitely NOT a GE 44-tonner; it's a GE 80-tonner.  You can tell because there's a walkway around the end of the unit; 44-tonner hoods went right out to the end of the deck and the handrails terminated at the corners of the hood.  As for the little unit, I wouldn't hazard a guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 or less.                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9612
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Ray W,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for the information 
and I will file it away. Will appreciate the copy of the illustrated 
instructions and parts list. Really glad you will be passing these on to 
HOseeker for viewing by all that want 
to see.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      One thing about the Lindsay and later Kemtron versions 
of the Stubby. I have never taken mine apart but assume it has a Lindsay motor 
(which the plans you talk about will show). What about the Kemtron version, was 
it a Lindsay motor ???-
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      I wanted to make sure Kemtron sold the entire Lindsay 
Stubby as theirs not just some parts that could be added. I cite the Varney Aero 
Train as a reason. Varney had his own drive, Kemtron sold a replacement drive 
but the Aero Train was always Varneys and never sold by Kemtron.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      I will have to change a tag on my shelf to include 
notation this Stubby is Kemtron.as my Lindsay items all together and my 
shleves to full to move it to a new place by itself.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  ---- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 9:06 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lindsay 
  "Stubby"
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Good Morning Jim H,

                                                                                                                                                                                  Yes Jim, no doubt, Bob Lindsay designed and 
  proudly first sold "Stubby" as part of his Lindsay line in the late 1940's, I 
  will send you a copy of the introductory advertisement as I have an extra copy 
  right here. (I also have an extra acceptable copy of a copy of the original 
  illustrated instructions and parts list for the original Lindsay version and 
  will send them along later today.)

                                                                                                                                                                                  Sometime later will scan it for all 
  via HOSeeker --when that scanner of mine gets operational, but no idea if it 
  will be readable from the copy of a copy. If anyone else wants them now, email 
  me off line and I'll make more and send them after Wed. No cost, as they were 
  made for me a couple years ago by another collector, who is actually a member 
  here, but seems to be inactive right now! 

                                                                                                                                                                                  After Lindsay, the model was 
  advertised and sold by Robico, although the last Lindsay ad I found was dated 
  in 1951. Not really sure what that Robico was, perhaps only a marketing 
  company that Lindsay and others may have had an interest in, 100% speculation 
  on my part, but even Robico's box copied Lindsay's box design to a "T", except 
  for the name. 

                                                                                                                                                                                  After the Robico period, the "Stubby" and also much of 
  Lindsay's own diesel line (zamac and brass), motors and truck sideframes and 
  parts became part of Kemtron's line. Throught the 1950's and early 1960's 
  Kemtron kept all of the Lindsay part numbers, adding an "L" in front of them. 
  Kemtron sold the Stubby as an all zamac kit, and then sold the upgraded pilot 
  castings as a separate item, in brass as well as black plastic (Kemtron noted 
  that the black plastic version made it easier to insulate the couplers from 
  the frame.)

                                                                                                                                                                                  I do not have earlier Kemtron catalogs, but know Stubby was 
  included in both HO and HOn3 versions in Kemtron catalogs #4 and #5 (I am 
  missing #6) and it was gone by the mid-1960's #7, but as I said, the brass 
  (and now gray colored) plastic pilots and other brass detail parts have been 
  continued in Precision Scale's line into this century. 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Later, (in the 
  1950's?) hobbytown of Boston then acquired some of the original Lindsay zamac 
  casting dies from Kemtron, like for the Alco FA-2 and FB-2, and hobbytown 
  later maintained a long working relationship with Kemtron/Precision Scale as a 
  source for brass parts, including the RS-3 handrail stanchions and brass Alco 
  FA&FB steps.

                                                                                                                                                                                  As far as who made the pattern for Stubby's brass 
  accessory ends, I do not know, it might have been Lindsay. However, by the 
  time Kemtron issued catalog #4, they had the most talented group of model 
  engineers and builders ever employed by one small firm: John Anderson and 
  Harry Parker (both later CalScale and this was after John Anderson was 
  associated with Red Ball); Bruce Bechtold, who later established the Back Shop 
  line of lost wax parts, and Cliff Grandt, who's later firm continues to this 
  day.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Personally, I feel like you do, and try to keep a model as 
  original as possible. But I don't mind vintage aftermarket parts that were 
  sold around the time that the original was available, and would likely be 
  used, like those lost wax steps on the John English FA-1 and FB-1 units you 
  described earlier. Then too, if I see a almost unknown old cast brass 
  locomotive shell machined and married to a recent hobbytown chassis, I'm not 
  going to pass that up either - but that story is for another day, when I have 
  digital photos to post!

                                                                                                                                                                                  W Jay W

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  I have no reason to disbelieve your thoughts about my Lindsay Stubby being a 
  Kemtron. So you are saying Kemtron didn't just make parts for the Lindsay 
  Stubby but actually sold the whole Lindsay Stubby as Kemtron ??? I have no 
  paperwork for this engine and have never seen any over the years. I based it 
  on being Lindsay as the only picture and comments came from Lennahan's 
  Locomotive Lexicon Part II. It has a side view picture of the Lindsay Stubby. 
  Can't see the pilots to see there was a difference. He also listed it as made 
  1950-1956. While Mr. Lenahan was not always 100% correct he was the only guide 
  I had to go on. I had no reason not to believe him either.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I had 
  always thought ROBICO (who ever there are) was actually the first producer of 
  the Stubby and Lindsay took it over. However your time line has it Lindsay, 
  ROBICO and the Kemtron.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Another thing that never caused me to wonder 
  about brass pilots being on what is described as a Zamac kit was Lindsay's all 
  cast brass model of an Electromotive 1000 HP Switcher L-400. ( While I have 
  this mint in a kit and will include when I photograph my Lindsay Album it is a 
  story for another day) I cite this as a reason not to have questioned the cast 
  brass pilots on the Stubby and still being Lindsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Live and 
  learn
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi 
  Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > You "Stubby" has the nicely detailed aftermarket lost 
  wax brass pilot ends that were produced as an upgrade by Kemtron. The original 
  Lindsay/Robico ends were a plainer diecast zamac like the rest of the kit. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > And believe it or not, those same deluxed brass pilot 
  castings, as well as the headlights and markers are still available through 
  Kemtron's successor, Precision Scale Models. I ordered some about 2-3 years 
  ago and can probably dig out the correct parts numbers for anyone wanting to 
  order through their dealer. I order through my local shop, MRPO in NJ, as 
  Precision has a $20. minimum for direct sales.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > My one almost 
  complete Stubby is missing a rear frame to body bracket and the step castings, 
  but they are not available, so I keep looking in old parts lots and show junk 
  boxes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Actually, Bob Lindsay introduced and sold his 
  "Stubby" along with the "TT" Scale "Tiny Tim" B&O Docksider in the late 
  1940's, both very cleverly used the same basic frame and drivers, the frame 
  being relieved for the narrower TT gauge Docksider, and including the add-on 
  cylinder casting and main rods. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Then Robico took over, and I 
  have not been able to figure out the name as well, or who the owners were, 
  though the address is near to Lindsay's. I have a folder of copies of most of 
  the Lindsay and Robioco ads in chronological basis, and will post the list 
  later tomorrow for those interested. Robico also sold some small freight cars 
  and turntable that were also sould under the Cliff Line name. After Robico, 
  Kemtron acquired and carried "Stubby" during the later 1950's and offered it 
  in HO, as well as HOn3 versions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > I understand that Stubby's 
  body dies passed to another manufacturer and are still in existance, but it 
  seems that the frame and other parts dies remained with Kemtron and now 
  possibly Precision if they survived. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I was 
  eventually going to send pictures to make an album of Lindsay products. I 
  thought I would send this early since it was mentioned that the real thing was 
  made in Wilkes Barre. This is the Lindsay "Stubby". My information says made 
  1950-1956. I understand a company called ROBICO (which I never found out what 
  it stands for other then CO for company) made it first. The years I cited 
  might include when ROBICO marketed it.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Lennard S Save this 
  picture till I do the other Lindsay engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9613
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph B, I was not aware of the signifigance of the walkway features you noted in regard to weight classification (and now learned something new), but did notice that the deck plate of the GE unit was much thicker than a typical 44 tonner. In retrospect, I think that also indicative of a higher tonnage rating?  W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Alpvalsys@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> In a message dated 4/11/2009 8:51:51 AM EDT, Chuck Higdon wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The bigger one is a GE 44 tonner.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sorry, Chuck, but it's definitely NOT a GE 44-tonner; it's a GE 80-tonner.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> You can tell because there's a walkway around the end of the unit; 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 44-tonner hoods went right out to the end of the deck and the handrails terminated 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> at the corners of the hood.  As for the little unit, I wouldn't hazard a 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> or less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9614
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Docksiders : Varney, PFM, Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   > Hi Jim H., I realized that you were not implying a connection, other than common B&O prototype, but figured I'd get the subject of Rivarossi out of the way in case anyone else was wondering, since the subject was raised. Plus the Rivarossi Collector website I was just looking at yesterday had a good history of theirs, plus some good refernces to their early use of Bakelite plastics that came up with another subject.  I only originally mentioned the Sakura/PFM Docksider and its possible heritage, as it was featured in the same back cover PFM ad as the Whitcomb. W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
thanks for the link to the Rivarossi site. Some very interesting 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
information.... I found that some pictures didnt load. However, several 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
but not all will display in the Italian version!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9615
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: John English Metal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I've read that in the early days of HO the reason PRR prototypes were so 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> popular was that the Bepaire firebox provided extra room for the motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Similar with Reading Prototypes, and Camelbacks.... plenty of room in 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the Wooten firebox, and the cab of the camelback.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9616
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                  the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   > Hi Rick,  Agree that the larger locomotive is a GE, has the right cab
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> shape, hood and truck sideframes too, from what I can make out.  The
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> second one could very well be a Whitcomb, as the cab configuration
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> seems to be very similar.  Industrial "critters" were often heavilly
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> modified at times, adding to ID problems.  But many of the Whitcombs
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> that I've seen on that website I linked to earlier have a vertical
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> trim piece centered over the front radiator, with letters spelling
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> out, top to bottom, "WHITCOMB" and your photo seems to show that.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I'd say 80% certain thats what the little unit is. W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      OK, here's a second, straight-on shot of the small one. It has a 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
vertical trim piece like you mention, but if you blow it up enough you 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
can see that it says "Davenport". I guess I should have looked closer at 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
my photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
"Nature makes boys and girls lovely to look upon so they can be
                                                                                                                                                                                  
tolerated until they acquire some sense."
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    - William Phelps
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9617
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
     I'd just like to point out that this is at least the second time this week that you've confused me with Jay W in your postings, which should really have been addressed to him.  I'm not offended in the least -- in the relatively short time that Jay's been here, he's shown himself to be a good contributor to the Group sharing much knowledge -- but it's not fair to Jay not to be recognized for his contributions when replying back to him.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
             Best,  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Ray W,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Thanks for the information and I will file it away. Will appreciate the copy of the illustrated instructions and parts list. Really glad you will be passing these on to HOseeker for viewing by all that want to see.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     One thing about the Lindsay and later Kemtron versions of the Stubby. I have never taken mine apart but assume it has a Lindsay motor (which the plans you talk about will show). What about the Kemtron version, was it a Lindsay motor ???-
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     I wanted to make sure Kemtron sold the entire Lindsay Stubby as theirs not just some parts that could be added. I cite the Varney Aero Train as a reason. Varney had his own drive, Kemtron sold a replacement drive but the Aero Train was always Varneys and never sold by Kemtron.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     I will have to change a tag on my shelf to include notation this Stubby is Kemtron.as my Lindsay items all together and my shleves to full to move it to a new place by itself.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ---- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 9:06 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Good Morning Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Yes Jim, no doubt, Bob Lindsay designed and proudly first sold "Stubby" as part of his Lindsay line in the late 1940's, I will send you a copy of the introductory advertisement as I have an extra copy right here. (I also have an extra acceptable copy of a copy of the original illustrated instructions and parts list for the original Lindsay version and will send them along later today.)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Sometime later will scan it for all via HOSeeker --when that scanner of mine gets operational, but no idea if it will be readable from the copy of a copy. If anyone else wants them now, email me off line and I'll make more and send them after Wed. No cost, as they were made for me a couple years ago by another collector, who is actually a member here, but seems to be inactive right now! 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   After Lindsay, the model was advertised and sold by Robico, although the last Lindsay ad I found was dated in 1951. Not really sure what that Robico was, perhaps only a marketing company that Lindsay and others may have had an interest in, 100% speculation on my part, but even Robico's box copied Lindsay's box design to a "T", except for the name. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   After the Robico period, the "Stubby" and also much of Lindsay's own diesel line (zamac and brass), motors and truck sideframes and parts became part of Kemtron's line. Throught the 1950's and early 1960's Kemtron kept all of the Lindsay part numbers, adding an "L" in front of them. Kemtron sold the Stubby as an all zamac kit, and then sold the upgraded pilot castings as a separate item, in brass as well as black plastic (Kemtron noted that the black plastic version made it easier to insulate the couplers from the frame.)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   I do not have earlier Kemtron catalogs, but know Stubby was included in both HO and HOn3 versions in Kemtron catalogs #4 and #5 (I am missing #6) and it was gone by the mid-1960's #7, but as I said, the brass (and now gray colored) plastic pilots and other brass detail parts have been continued in Precision Scale's line into this century. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Later, (in the 1950's?) hobbytown of Boston then acquired some of the original Lindsay zamac casting dies from Kemtron, like for the Alco FA-2 and FB-2, and hobbytown later maintained a long working relationship with Kemtron/Precision Scale as a source for brass parts, including the RS-3 handrail stanchions and brass Alco FA&FB steps.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   As far as who made the pattern for Stubby's brass accessory ends, I do not know, it might have been Lindsay. However, by the time Kemtron issued catalog #4, they had the most talented group of model engineers and builders ever employed by one small firm: John Anderson and Harry Parker (both later CalScale and this was after John Anderson was associated with Red Ball); Bruce Bechtold, who later established the Back Shop line of lost wax parts, and Cliff Grandt, who's later firm continues to this day.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Personally, I feel like you do, and try to keep a model as original as possible. But I don't mind vintage aftermarket parts that were sold around the time that the original was available, and would likely be used, like those lost wax steps on the John English FA-1 and FB-1 units you described earlier. Then too, if I see a almost unknown old cast brass locomotive shell machined and married to a recent hobbytown chassis, I'm not going to pass that up either - but that story is for another day, when I have digital photos to post!
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > I have no reason to disbelieve your thoughts about my Lindsay Stubby being a Kemtron. So you are saying Kemtron didn't just make parts for the Lindsay Stubby but actually sold the whole Lindsay Stubby as Kemtron ??? I have no paperwork for this engine and have never seen any over the years. I based it on being Lindsay as the only picture and comments came from Lennahan's Locomotive Lexicon Part II. It has a side view picture of the Lindsay Stubby. Can't see the pilots to see there was a difference. He also listed it as made 1950-1956. While Mr. Lenahan was not always 100% correct he was the only guide I had to go on. I had no reason not to believe him either.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > I had always thought ROBICO (who ever there are) was actually the first producer of the Stubby and Lindsay took it over. However your time line has it Lindsay, ROBICO and the Kemtron.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Another thing that never caused me to wonder about brass pilots being on what is described as a Zamac kit was Lindsay's all cast brass model of an Electromotive 1000 HP Switcher L-400. ( While I have this mint in a kit and will include when I photograph my Lindsay Album it is a story for another day) I cite this as a reason not to have questioned the cast brass pilots on the Stubby and still being Lindsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Live and learn
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > You "Stubby" has the nicely detailed aftermarket lost wax brass pilot ends that were produced as an upgrade by Kemtron. The original Lindsay/Robico ends were a plainer diecast zamac like the rest of the kit. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > And believe it or not, those same deluxed brass pilot castings, as well as the headlights and markers are still available through Kemtron's successor, Precision Scale Models. I ordered some about 2-3 years ago and can probably dig out the correct parts numbers for anyone wanting to order through their dealer. I order through my local shop, MRPO in NJ, as Precision has a $20. minimum for direct sales.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > My one almost complete Stubby is missing a rear frame to body bracket and the step castings, but they are not available, so I keep looking in old parts lots and show junk boxes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Actually, Bob Lindsay introduced and sold his "Stubby" along with the "TT" Scale "Tiny Tim" B&O Docksider in the late 1940's, both very cleverly used the same basic frame and drivers, the frame being relieved for the narrower TT gauge Docksider, and including the add-on cylinder casting and main rods. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Then Robico took over, and I have not been able to figure out the name as well, or who the owners were, though the address is near to Lindsay's. I have a folder of copies of most of the Lindsay and Robioco ads in chronological basis, and will post the list later tomorrow for those interested. Robico also sold some small freight cars and turntable that were also sould under the Cliff Line name. After Robico, Kemtron acquired and carried "Stubby" during the later 1950's and offered it in HO, as well as HOn3 versions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > I understand that Stubby's body dies passed to another manufacturer and are still in existance, but it seems that the frame and other parts dies remained with Kemtron and now possibly Precision if they survived. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > I was eventually going to send pictures to make an album of Lindsay products. I thought I would send this early since it was mentioned that the real thing was made in Wilkes Barre. This is the Lindsay "Stubby". My information says made 1950-1956. I understand a company called ROBICO (which I never found out what it stands for other then CO for company) made it first. The years I cited might include when ROBICO marketed it.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > Lennard S Save this picture till I do the other Lindsay engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9618
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6 [7 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       I have been going back 
reading past Emails from your site about the discussions of Crescent and 
Dallas Model Craft E unit diesels but haven't found any talk of one with a 
wooden nose yet. Was it possible the talk was about Strombecker wood E type 
diesels ????  I've been trying to refresh my tired senile memory but so 
many Emails and topics have been taking place ( you have a very popular 
site).
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         I can't ID the 
pictures you show. I have nothing to match with it in my collection. I have to 
start looking in my treasure trove of literature to try to come up with 
something for you. I will continue to go through this paperwork but with no 
index it means page by page. Sorry I can't help right now.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:30 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass 
  & wood E-6 [7 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  A few weeks ago as part of a discussion on a Crescent E-6 on eBay, 
  I
                                                                                                                                                                                  mentioned one I have that's brass sheet with a wooden nose. Jim, you made 
  a
                                                                                                                                                                                  comment some months back in another thread that leads to believe me 
  you've
                                                                                                                                                                                  seen one of these before. I finally found the pictures tucked away 
  in a
                                                                                                                                                                                  corner of my G drive (every time I replace computes, instead of 
  transferring
                                                                                                                                                                                  old data I just piggyback the old drive, my current machine 
  has THREE hard
                                                                                                                                                                                  drives),

                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, I'm curious as to what this puppy 
  is.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9619
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Yes the illustrated Lindsay instruction and parts folder has an exploded view inside, identifying all parts (just returned from the post office, so you should have them early in the week.)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
And yes, the Kemtron version (parts, motor) seem to be identical to the Lindsay original and the Kemtron catalog even used the same exploded parts drawing (remember the brass ends were an option that anyone could buy and add to any Stubby). Just to clarify, according to the Kemtron catalogs, their Stubby kit did not come with their own optional brass end castings. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I would venture to say with about 95% certainty, that there might not be any way to tell if a Stubby was originally sold by Lindsay, Robico or Kemtron, unless one had the original packaging.  Kemtron cataloged the Lindsay designed motors and parts for a long while and did not hide their original heritage. In fact, the Kemtron motor page illustrates many Lindsay motors and calls them "The Lindsay Quality Line." I have an extra new body casting that likely came from later Kemtron days that still indicates "Lindsay" on the inside (but no way to be 100% sure).
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
So in conclusion, I always think of these as Lindsay Stubby's, later sold by Robico or Kemtron.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Will not be near a copier this week until Wednesday, so will copy the Kemtron Stubby catalog pages for you as well and get them out later in the week. That way you will have both for your files. The nice "extra feature" of the Kemtron catalog page is that John Anderson included a small sketch of it as one of the illustrations.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
While I am committed to getting up the items I have spoken about on HO Seeker as soon as I get that software, or forgo the model budget for a month or so and get a whole new one, I don't think I can commit to also scanning and submitting a whole 48 page Kemtron catalog as I too, am still in "Dial-up Country!"  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Ray W,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Thanks for the information and I will file it away. Will appreciate the copy of the illustrated instructions and parts list. Really glad you will be passing these on to HOseeker for viewing by all that want to see.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     One thing about the Lindsay and later Kemtron versions of the Stubby. I have never taken mine apart but assume it has a Lindsay motor (which the plans you talk about will show). What about the Kemtron version, was it a Lindsay motor ???-
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     I wanted to make sure Kemtron sold the entire Lindsay Stubby as theirs not just some parts that could be added. I cite the Varney Aero Train as a reason. Varney had his own drive, Kemtron sold a replacement drive but the Aero Train was always Varneys and never sold by Kemtron.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     I will have to change a tag on my shelf to include notation this Stubby is Kemtron.as my Lindsay items all together and my shleves to full to move it to a new place by itself.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ---- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 9:06 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Good Morning Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Yes Jim, no doubt, Bob Lindsay designed and proudly first sold "Stubby" as part of his Lindsay line in the late 1940's, I will send you a copy of the introductory advertisement as I have an extra copy right here. (I also have an extra acceptable copy of a copy of the original illustrated instructions and parts list for the original Lindsay version and will send them along later today.)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Sometime later will scan it for all via HOSeeker --when that scanner of mine gets operational, but no idea if it will be readable from the copy of a copy. If anyone else wants them now, email me off line and I'll make more and send them after Wed. No cost, as they were made for me a couple years ago by another collector, who is actually a member here, but seems to be inactive right now! 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   After Lindsay, the model was advertised and sold by Robico, although the last Lindsay ad I found was dated in 1951. Not really sure what that Robico was, perhaps only a marketing company that Lindsay and others may have had an interest in, 100% speculation on my part, but even Robico's box copied Lindsay's box design to a "T", except for the name. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   After the Robico period, the "Stubby" and also much of Lindsay's own diesel line (zamac and brass), motors and truck sideframes and parts became part of Kemtron's line. Throught the 1950's and early 1960's Kemtron kept all of the Lindsay part numbers, adding an "L" in front of them. Kemtron sold the Stubby as an all zamac kit, and then sold the upgraded pilot castings as a separate item, in brass as well as black plastic (Kemtron noted that the black plastic version made it easier to insulate the couplers from the frame.)
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   I do not have earlier Kemtron catalogs, but know Stubby was included in both HO and HOn3 versions in Kemtron catalogs #4 and #5 (I am missing #6) and it was gone by the mid-1960's #7, but as I said, the brass (and now gray colored) plastic pilots and other brass detail parts have been continued in Precision Scale's line into this century. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Later, (in the 1950's?) hobbytown of Boston then acquired some of the original Lindsay zamac casting dies from Kemtron, like for the Alco FA-2 and FB-2, and hobbytown later maintained a long working relationship with Kemtron/Precision Scale as a source for brass parts, including the RS-3 handrail stanchions and brass Alco FA&FB steps.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   As far as who made the pattern for Stubby's brass accessory ends, I do not know, it might have been Lindsay. However, by the time Kemtron issued catalog #4, they had the most talented group of model engineers and builders ever employed by one small firm: John Anderson and Harry Parker (both later CalScale and this was after John Anderson was associated with Red Ball); Bruce Bechtold, who later established the Back Shop line of lost wax parts, and Cliff Grandt, who's later firm continues to this day.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Personally, I feel like you do, and try to keep a model as original as possible. But I don't mind vintage aftermarket parts that were sold around the time that the original was available, and would likely be used, like those lost wax steps on the John English FA-1 and FB-1 units you described earlier. Then too, if I see a almost unknown old cast brass locomotive shell machined and married to a recent hobbytown chassis, I'm not going to pass that up either - but that story is for another day, when I have digital photos to post!
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > I have no reason to disbelieve your thoughts about my Lindsay Stubby being a Kemtron. So you are saying Kemtron didn't just make parts for the Lindsay Stubby but actually sold the whole Lindsay Stubby as Kemtron ??? I have no paperwork for this engine and have never seen any over the years. I based it on being Lindsay as the only picture and comments came from Lennahan's Locomotive Lexicon Part II. It has a side view picture of the Lindsay Stubby. Can't see the pilots to see there was a difference. He also listed it as made 1950-1956. While Mr. Lenahan was not always 100% correct he was the only guide I had to go on. I had no reason not to believe him either.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > I had always thought ROBICO (who ever there are) was actually the first producer of the Stubby and Lindsay took it over. However your time line has it Lindsay, ROBICO and the Kemtron.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Another thing that never caused me to wonder about brass pilots being on what is described as a Zamac kit was Lindsay's all cast brass model of an Electromotive 1000 HP Switcher L-400. ( While I have this mint in a kit and will include when I photograph my Lindsay Album it is a story for another day) I cite this as a reason not to have questioned the cast brass pilots on the Stubby and still being Lindsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Live and learn
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lindsay "Stubby"
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > You "Stubby" has the nicely detailed aftermarket lost wax brass pilot ends that were produced as an upgrade by Kemtron. The original Lindsay/Robico ends were a plainer diecast zamac like the rest of the kit. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > And believe it or not, those same deluxed brass pilot castings, as well as the headlights and markers are still available through Kemtron's successor, Precision Scale Models. I ordered some about 2-3 years ago and can probably dig out the correct parts numbers for anyone wanting to order through their dealer. I order through my local shop, MRPO in NJ, as Precision has a $20. minimum for direct sales.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > My one almost complete Stubby is missing a rear frame to body bracket and the step castings, but they are not available, so I keep looking in old parts lots and show junk boxes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Actually, Bob Lindsay introduced and sold his "Stubby" along with the "TT" Scale "Tiny Tim" B&O Docksider in the late 1940's, both very cleverly used the same basic frame and drivers, the frame being relieved for the narrower TT gauge Docksider, and including the add-on cylinder casting and main rods. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > Then Robico took over, and I have not been able to figure out the name as well, or who the owners were, though the address is near to Lindsay's. I have a folder of copies of most of the Lindsay and Robioco ads in chronological basis, and will post the list later tomorrow for those interested. Robico also sold some small freight cars and turntable that were also sould under the Cliff Line name. After Robico, Kemtron acquired and carried "Stubby" during the later 1950's and offered it in HO, as well as HOn3 versions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > I understand that Stubby's body dies passed to another manufacturer and are still in existance, but it seems that the frame and other parts dies remained with Kemtron and now possibly Precision if they survived. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > I was eventually going to send pictures to make an album of Lindsay products. I thought I would send this early since it was mentioned that the real thing was made in Wilkes Barre. This is the Lindsay "Stubby". My information says made 1950-1956. I understand a company called ROBICO (which I never found out what it stands for other then CO for company) made it first. The years I cited might include when ROBICO marketed it.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > Lennard S Save this picture till I do the other Lindsay engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9620
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 4/11/2009 11:50:10 AM EDT, Jay W wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  the deck plate of the GE unit was much thicker than a typical 44 tonner. In retrospect, I think that also indicative of a higher tonnage rating?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  --------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  In some cases, it is, partly because the heavier units frequently came with more powerful engines.  In fact, I had to go back and look at Rick's picture again.  GE built an identical unit, but with a thinner deck plate, that only weighed a nominal 65 tons.  They also built a thck-deck version of the 44-tonner that was also sold as a 65-tonner.  Confused?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  It's too bad there weren't more models of "critters" done in the '50s and earlier.  After all, most of the prototype units were out of production by then.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9621
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: mix up
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Ray W,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         Thanks for 
pointing out that I was putting your name instead of the right name.  Ray 
W, Jay W.  Close but no cigar.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Ray W    You must realize that it is 
because you are such a popular guy.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay W     I apologize for not 
giving proper credit 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Hopefully you both will forgive my foolish ways.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9622
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Castor review
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Found a comment on the Castor B-1 in my files... unfortunately, when I 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
scanned it years ago I did this in low resolution and didnt add the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
magazine/ date info.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9623
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: PFM  Whitcomb ad
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Here is the ad from the September 1965 RMC. Not sure, but it seems to me 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
there is "made in Japan" cast into the cab roof?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I may send it off line in higher resolution if desired.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9624
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Rick J., LOL! Good I left 20% wiggle room on that ID. Afer you said Davenport, looked that up on the Northeast Railfan website and they seem to have a photo of that unit in possibly earlier days when painted yellow; is the company called "Textube"?"
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_tt_davpt.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Here is their whole Davenport page, on of the smaller biulder of very small locomotives:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/diesel97.html
                                                                                                                                                                                  
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Hi Rick,  Agree that the larger locomotive is a GE, has the right cab
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > shape, hood and truck sideframes too, from what I can make out.  The
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > second one could very well be a Whitcomb, as the cab configuration
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > seems to be very similar.  Industrial "critters" were often heavilly
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > modified at times, adding to ID problems.  But many of the Whitcombs
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > that I've seen on that website I linked to earlier have a vertical
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > trim piece centered over the front radiator, with letters spelling
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > out, top to bottom, "WHITCOMB" and your photo seems to show that.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I'd say 80% certain thats what the little unit is. W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     OK, here's a second, straight-on shot of the small one. It has a 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> vertical trim piece like you mention, but if you blow it up enough you 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> can see that it says "Davenport". I guess I should have looked closer at 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> my photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> "Nature makes boys and girls lovely to look upon so they can be
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> tolerated until they acquire some sense."
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     - William Phelps
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9625
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Have just bought a FM body on a Tempo drive, for the pricy sum of 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
$19.95. Seems thats a Barr-Nixon model, I assume it was intended to 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
represent a H10-44? 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230336449043
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9626
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Gerold, I guess that is a bit of proof to the saying "That something always gets lost in the translation!!!  W Jay W.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   > Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> thanks for the link to the Rivarossi site. Some very interesting 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> information.... I found that some pictures didnt load. However, several 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> but not all will display in the Italian version!
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9627
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  It wasn't about strombecker, I'll look through the archives too, see if I 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
can find it.  I know I wanted to say something at the time, but then it 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
slipped away.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:26 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
     I have been going back reading past Emails from your site about the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
discussions of Crescent and Dallas Model Craft E unit diesels but haven't 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
found any talk of one with a wooden nose yet. Was it possible the talk was 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
about Strombecker wood E type diesels ????  I've been trying to refresh my 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
tired senile memory but so many Emails and topics have been taking place ( 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
you have a very popular site).
                                                                                                                                                                                  
       I can't ID the pictures you show. I have nothing to match with it in 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
my collection. I have to start looking in my treasure trove of literature to 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
try to come up with something for you. I will continue to go through this 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
paperwork but with no index it means page by page. Sorry I can't help right 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
now.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                  
 Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Subject: [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6 [7 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  [Attachment(s) from Don Dellmann included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  A few weeks ago as part of a discussion on a Crescent E-6 on eBay, I
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  mentioned one I have that's brass sheet with a wooden nose. Jim, you made 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
a
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  comment some months back in another thread that leads to believe me you've
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  seen one of these before. I finally found the pictures tucked away in a
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  corner of my G drive (every time I replace computes, instead of 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
transferring
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  old data I just piggyback the old drive, my current machine has THREE hard
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  drives),
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Anyway, I'm curious as to what this puppy is.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9628
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 




 


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks Ralph.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon 
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 4/11/2009 8:51:51 AM EDT, Chuck Higdon wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  The bigger one is a GE 44 tonner.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------ --------
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Sorry, Chuck, but it's definitely NOT a GE 44-tonner; it's a GE
80-tonner.  You can tell because there's a walkway around the end of the
unit; 44-tonner hoods went right out to the end of the deck and the handrails
terminated at the corners of the hood.  As for the little unit, I wouldn't
hazard a guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9629
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 8523, you mentioned a wood and stamped aluminum E by "Hobbies Inc."
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I just went downstairs and rummaged around, finding I made several 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
misstatements.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
The body shell IS aluminum, not brass, and the truck sideframes ARE brass.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Anyway, do you think I;m  guessing correctly that this is the Hobbies Inc. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
unit?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:26 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
     I have been going back reading past Emails from your site about the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
discussions of Crescent and Dallas Model Craft E unit diesels but haven't 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
found any talk of one with a wooden nose yet. Was it possible the talk was 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
about Strombecker wood E type diesels ????  I've been trying to refresh my 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
tired senile memory but so many Emails and topics have been taking place ( 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
you have a very popular site).
                                                                                                                                                                                  
       I can't ID the pictures you show. I have nothing to match with it in 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
my collection. I have to start looking in my treasure trove of literature to 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
try to come up with something for you. I will continue to go through this 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
paperwork but with no index it means page by page. Sorry I can't help right 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
now.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                  
 Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Subject: [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6 [7 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  [Attachment(s) from Don Dellmann included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  A few weeks ago as part of a discussion on a Crescent E-6 on eBay, I
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  mentioned one I have that's brass sheet with a wooden nose. Jim, you made 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
a
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  comment some months back in another thread that leads to believe me you've
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  seen one of these before. I finally found the pictures tucked away in a
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  corner of my G drive (every time I replace computes, instead of 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
transferring
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  old data I just piggyback the old drive, my current machine has THREE hard
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  drives),
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Anyway, I'm curious as to what this puppy is.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9630
						From: Karl Peters
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: PFM  Whitcomb ad
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  You may be right. I looked at my copy of the magazine, and it does appear there are three words there.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Haven't found were my PFM Whitcomb is yet, but did find my Penn Line version [it is a D-2]. There is no lettering inside the cab roof that I can see.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   After a cleaning and oiling, it is happily growling it's way around my little test track as I write this. Was a basket case that I picked up for $5.00; had to replace the wheels and handrails, will also need to be stripped and repainted.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9631
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, fwiw I did find a message from you in January that mentioned an E unit that was wood and metal, but it didn't specifically mention a wooden nose.  this email below from Don was 3/30/09 and does describe his wooden nosed E-unit.  Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Forwarded Message ----
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:03:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ebay Brass Engine Body

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm very tempted to bid on it myself if nobody wants it worse.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I have one very similar, the sides and roof are the same idea, but the nose 
                                                                                                                                                                                  is carved from wood. I had a picture of it up on the list site a while 
                                                                                                                                                                                  back, but no one could identify it.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:08 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Ebay Brass Engine Body

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Gerold, Mike B, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  These are pictures of my Crescent Model E-6 like the one on 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Ebay Gerold sent. The first picture is a completed model that I painted and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  decaled. Excuse that the decals are so visible. Never got a coat of Dullcoat 
                                                                                                                                                                                  on it. The next two pictures show the plans, different boxes and
 many extra 
                                                                                                                                                                                  parts.You can see an extra nose piece and the plans to make it.You have to 
                                                                                                                                                                                  form and solder it. The drive is a single 6 wheel drive that is something 
                                                                                                                                                                                  common with open frame motor. Not sure whose. Could be Walthers or Andeco. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Have a complete assembly sheet not shown but all were given to HOseeker and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  on his site. Let me know if there is anything else you would like to know. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  I "think" there was a B unit made.
                                                                                                                                                                                  To Mike B If this extra assembled nose piece or other parts will 
                                                                                                                                                                                  help you contact me off site at jimheck@losch. net.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       I have been going back reading past Emails from your site about the discussions of Crescent and Dallas Model Craft E unit diesels but haven't found any talk of one with a wooden nose yet. Was it possible the talk was about Strombecker wood E type diesels ????  I've been trying to refresh my tired senile memory but so many Emails and topics have been taking place ( you have a very popular site).
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         I can't ID the pictures you show. I have nothing to match with it in my collection. I have to start looking in my treasure trove of literature to try to come up with something for you. I will continue to go through this paperwork but with no index it means page by page. Sorry I can't help right now.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6 [7 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  A few weeks ago as part of a discussion on a Crescent E-6 on eBay, I
                                                                                                                                                                                  mentioned one I have that's brass sheet with a wooden nose. Jim, you made a
                                                                                                                                                                                  comment some months back in another thread that leads to believe me you've
                                                                                                                                                                                  seen one of these before. I finally found the pictures tucked away in a
                                                                                                                                                                                  corner of my G drive (every time I replace computes, instead of transferring
                                                                                                                                                                                  old data I just piggyback the old drive, my current machine has THREE hard
                                                                                                                                                                                  drives),

                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, I'm curious as to what this puppy is.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/
 CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9632
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Someday, I should post the HO wooden form, sheet metal E-something I got ages ago at a swap meet.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't think it is a commercial project. I believe it was a very creative modeler with a solution to having a model.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I think it is on a shelf, an arms-length from the downstairs computer.

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  On Apr 11, 2009, at 4:00 PM, Chris B wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, fwiw I did find a message from you in January that mentioned an E unit that was wood and metal, but it didn't specifically mention a wooden nose.  this email below from Don was 3/30/09 and does describe his wooden nosed E-unit.  Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Forwarded Message ----
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Don Dellmann 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ebay Brass Engine Body

                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm very tempted to bid on it myself if nobody wants it worse.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I have one very similar, the sides and roof are the same idea, but the nose 
                                                                                                                                                                                  is carved from wood. I had a picture of it up on the list site a while 
                                                                                                                                                                                  back, but no one could identify it.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9633
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line Whitcomb Photos, PFM Version Questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   > Hi Rick J., LOL! Good I left 20% wiggle room on that ID. Afer you
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> said Davenport, looked that up on the Northeast Railfan website and
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> they seem to have a photo of that unit in possibly earlier days when
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> painted yellow; is the company called "Textube"?" 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_tt_davpt.jpg Here is their
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> whole Davenport page, on of the smaller biulder of very small
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> locomotives:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      That does appear to be the same, or an identical unit. Don't recall 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
if the company was Textube or not. I had to park on the highway, step 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
across the UP tracks to the chain link fence to shoot the photos. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
front of the plant was facing away from my position. It was about 6 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
years ago when I took the shots.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9634
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                               
Barr Nixon produced a sheet brass body that you soldered to assembled. It was a 
Fairbanks Morse engine and I think H-10-44 (must check the one I have which is 
not in front of me) was the designation. The engine/kit was later put out by 
Sampson the same company that had the passenger cars.The Barr Nixon used a 
number of drives. I think Lindsay was preferred. Mine has a Varney drive and 
would be the wrong sid eframes for the prototype. If you want pictures of the 
engine and box I can send you. The paperwork that came with it was sent just 
lately to HOseeker. I'm not sure he had time to post it. If not there I can send 
a picture of the plans too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:08 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Barr-Nixon FM?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Have just bought a FM body on a Tempo drive, for the pricy sum of 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $19.95. Seems thats a Barr-Nixon model, I assume it was intended to 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  represent a H10-44? 

                                                                                                                                                                                  http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=23033644904 3

                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9635
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                     Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      I must go back and read message 
8523. Not that I'm not (double negative) normally confused from a previous 
stroke, this is really confusing. Hobbies Inc made a PA and E unit but both 
were complete one piece cast bodies only. I can't figure the wood part out 
for what ever I was talking about at that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       Your engine is not Hobbies 
Inc. I'm also glad I'm not the only one making mistakes. Between so many topics 
and so many facts makes it very hard not to err. I'll get back as soon as I have 
time to reread that message.Nothing is coming back.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:46 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PING Jim 
  H.-Brass & wood E-6
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 8523, you mentioned a wood and stamped aluminum E by "Hobbies 
  Inc."

                                                                                                                                                                                  I just went downstairs and rummaged around, finding I made 
  several 
                                                                                                                                                                                  misstatements.

                                                                                                                                                                                  The body shell IS aluminum, not brass, and 
  the truck sideframes ARE brass.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, do you think I;m guessing 
  correctly that this is the Hobbies Inc. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  unit?

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don 
  Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
  Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:26 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PING Jim 
  H.-Brass & wood E-6

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  I have been going back reading past 
  Emails from your site about the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  discussions of Crescent and Dallas Model 
  Craft E unit diesels but haven't 
                                                                                                                                                                                  found any talk of one with a wooden nose 
  yet. Was it possible the talk was 
                                                                                                                                                                                  about Strombecker wood E type diesels 
  ???? I've been trying to refresh my 
                                                                                                                                                                                  tired senile memory but so many Emails 
  and topics have been taking place ( 
                                                                                                                                                                                  you have a very popular site).
                                                                                                                                                                                  I 
  can't ID the pictures you show. I have nothing to match with it in 
                                                                                                                                                                                  my 
  collection. I have to start looking in my treasure trove of literature to 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  try to come up with something for you. I will continue to go through this 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  paperwork but with no index it means page by page. Sorry I can't help 
  right 
                                                                                                                                                                                  now.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Don 
  Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
  Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass 
  & wood E-6 [7 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                  [Attachment( s) from Don Dellmann 
  included below]

                                                                                                                                                                                  A few weeks ago as part of a discussion on a Crescent 
  E-6 on eBay, I
                                                                                                                                                                                  mentioned one I have that's brass sheet with a wooden nose. 
  Jim, you made 
                                                                                                                                                                                  a
                                                                                                                                                                                  comment some months back in another thread that leads 
  to believe me you've
                                                                                                                                                                                  seen one of these before. I finally found the pictures 
  tucked away in a
                                                                                                                                                                                  corner of my G drive (every time I replace computes, 
  instead of 
                                                                                                                                                                                  transferring
                                                                                                                                                                                  old data I just piggyback the old drive, my 
  current machine has THREE hard
                                                                                                                                                                                  drives),

                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, I'm curious as to 
  what this puppy is.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9636
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     The Barr Nixon paperwork has been 
posted on HOseeker. There are two sheets. One is the plan with instructions. 
Larry (HOseeker) made a second page (bigger print) of the instructions. Still 
have not had time to verify the H10-44 part but it is Fairbanks Morse. Again I 
can send pictures of mine Let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:08 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Barr-Nixon FM?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Have just bought a FM body on a Tempo drive, for the pricy sum of 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  $19.95. Seems thats a Barr-Nixon model, I assume it was intended to 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  represent a H10-44? 

                                                                                                                                                                                  http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=23033644904 3

                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9637
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Attached photo test
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck,  While my limited time this past week allowed for me only to post a few replies which seemed important in continuing threads in discussion on a topic or two, I've been wanting to get back to you on your fine job of drawing up and uploading the A-C/L-W Models spread sheet to the files.  As time is finally permitting a bit more leisure minutes, I'm not posting another message before taking this opportunity to thank you for another job well done -- many thanks, Chuck! 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I believe I read a follow up post to this one below, indicating that you had indeed gone ahead and added this sheet to the files, after you had done so, but I can't seem to find it.  In any case, I checked it out and it looks good.  I see you've already added Jay W's CB-5 Side Door Caboose (StL-SW), also.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
As Mike Farina posted an addition to this listing too, you might want to add his MWX-8 Tool & Engineering Car X303 (no road name).  While making additions, to decrease confusion would you please add the information -- St. Louis Refrigerator Car -- to the RB-1 SLRX Reefer, which is a private owner refrigerator car similar to the NADX North American Despatch.  Another piece of information to be added for the TW-15 Pickle Car is the full name of -- Libby McNeil & Libby.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
There is a correction to be made for the Pulpwood cars.  LPA-1 is undec., and LPA-15 is KCS - Kansas City Southern.  One last correction, the StL-SW - Cotton Belt Automobile Car should be XAF-10 (not XAB-10).
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Please also add these new additions which I've found, for car numbers, new kits to the list, etc.: 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Refrigerator -
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
RS-1  PFE Pacific Fruit Express 200010
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Box Car -
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
XM-2  C&EI 510
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
XM-3  Wabash 80017
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
XM-4  Undec.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
XM-5 SL-SF - Frisco 127427
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
XM-20 SOO LINE 12800
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Automobile Box Car -
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
XAB-3 Southern 271941
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Wood Gondola -
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
GB-7  Monon (CIL) 312826
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Many thanks again, Chuck -- most appreciated.  Best,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Ray W., I see you posted a list, that I missed, but now will get it loaded
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> over the weekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Of Chuck Higdon
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 10:58 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: [vintageHO] Attached photo test
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hello, I have attached a photo of a model a friend of mine built.  This is
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> to see how the photos now show up, so we can better understand this new
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> process.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> As there is some place we should click on to see the photo.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9638
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      I went to message 8523 that you 
mention. That message is from a Larry D about   "Latest Acquisitions" 
and talks about wood and metal kits he has found. If that's not the right number 
you sent please send other. I still don't remember my train of thought at that 
time till I read what was being talked about.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       Also even with the 
revisions you mentioned your item still doesn't "ring a bell". I'll keep looking 
while I wait for the message number
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:46 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PING Jim 
  H.-Brass & wood E-6
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 8523, you mentioned a wood and stamped aluminum E by "Hobbies 
  Inc."

                                                                                                                                                                                  I just went downstairs and rummaged around, finding I made 
  several 
                                                                                                                                                                                  misstatements.

                                                                                                                                                                                  The body shell IS aluminum, not brass, and 
  the truck sideframes ARE brass.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, do you think I;m guessing 
  correctly that this is the Hobbies Inc. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  unit?

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don 
  Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
  Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:26 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PING Jim 
  H.-Brass & wood E-6

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  I have been going back reading past 
  Emails from your site about the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  discussions of Crescent and Dallas Model 
  Craft E unit diesels but haven't 
                                                                                                                                                                                  found any talk of one with a wooden nose 
  yet. Was it possible the talk was 
                                                                                                                                                                                  about Strombecker wood E type diesels 
  ???? I've been trying to refresh my 
                                                                                                                                                                                  tired senile memory but so many Emails 
  and topics have been taking place ( 
                                                                                                                                                                                  you have a very popular site).
                                                                                                                                                                                  I 
  can't ID the pictures you show. I have nothing to match with it in 
                                                                                                                                                                                  my 
  collection. I have to start looking in my treasure trove of literature to 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  try to come up with something for you. I will continue to go through this 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  paperwork but with no index it means page by page. Sorry I can't help 
  right 
                                                                                                                                                                                  now.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Don 
  Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
  Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass 
  & wood E-6 [7 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                  [Attachment( s) from Don Dellmann 
  included below]

                                                                                                                                                                                  A few weeks ago as part of a discussion on a Crescent 
  E-6 on eBay, I
                                                                                                                                                                                  mentioned one I have that's brass sheet with a wooden nose. 
  Jim, you made 
                                                                                                                                                                                  a
                                                                                                                                                                                  comment some months back in another thread that leads 
  to believe me you've
                                                                                                                                                                                  seen one of these before. I finally found the pictures 
  tucked away in a
                                                                                                                                                                                  corner of my G drive (every time I replace computes, 
  instead of 
                                                                                                                                                                                  transferring
                                                                                                                                                                                  old data I just piggyback the old drive, my 
  current machine has THREE hard
                                                                                                                                                                                  drives),

                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, I'm curious as to 
  what this puppy is.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9639
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     Can you give me the number of the 
message from January of the E unit that I mentioned was wood and metal. I 
must try to refresh my memory.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 5:00 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PING Jim 
  H.-Brass & wood E-6
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, fwiw I did find a message from you in January that 
  mentioned an E unit that was wood and metal, but it didn't specifically 
  mention a wooden nose.  this email below from Don was 3/30/09 and does 
  describe his wooden nosed E-unit.  Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Forwarded Message ----
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:03:03 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  Ebay Brass Engine Body

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm very tempted to bid on it myself if nobody wants it worse.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I 
  have one very similar, the sides and roof are the same idea, but the nose 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  is carved from wood. I had a picture of it up on the list site a while 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  back, but no one could identify it.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ 
  prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ 
  don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ 
  CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ 
  group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. 
  net>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, March 
  30, 2009 10:08 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Ebay Brass Engine Body

                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi 
  Gerold, Mike B, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  These are pictures of my Crescent Model E-6 like the 
  one on 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Ebay Gerold sent. The first picture is a completed model that I 
  painted and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  decaled. Excuse that the decals are so visible. Never got a 
  coat of Dullcoat 
                                                                                                                                                                                  on it. The next two pictures show the plans, different 
  boxes and many extra 
                                                                                                                                                                                  parts.You can see an extra nose piece and the plans 
  to make it.You have to 
                                                                                                                                                                                  form and solder it. The drive is a single 6 wheel 
  drive that is something 
                                                                                                                                                                                  common with open frame motor. Not sure whose. 
  Could be Walthers or Andeco. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  Have a complete assembly sheet not shown but 
  all were given to HOseeker and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  on his site. Let me know if there is 
  anything else you would like to know. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  I "think" there was a B unit 
  made.
                                                                                                                                                                                  To Mike B If this extra assembled nose piece or other parts will 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  help you contact me off site at jimheck@losch. net.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       I have been going back 
  reading past Emails from your site about the discussions of Crescent and 
  Dallas Model Craft E unit diesels but haven't found any talk of one with 
  a wooden nose yet. Was it possible the talk was about Strombecker wood E 
  type diesels ????  I've been trying to refresh my tired senile memory but 
  so many Emails and topics have been taking place ( you have a very popular 
  site).
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         I can't ID 
  the pictures you show. I have nothing to match with it in my collection. I 
  have to start looking in my treasure trove of literature to try to come up 
  with something for you. I will continue to go through this paperwork but with 
  no index it means page by page. Sorry I can't help right now.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:30 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass 
    & wood E-6 [7 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  A few weeks ago as part of a discussion on a Crescent E-6 on eBay, 
    I
                                                                                                                                                                                  mentioned one I have that's brass sheet with a wooden nose. Jim, you 
    made a
                                                                                                                                                                                  comment some months back in another thread that leads to believe 
    me you've
                                                                                                                                                                                  seen one of these before. I finally found the pictures tucked 
    away in a
                                                                                                                                                                                  corner of my G drive (every time I replace computes, instead of 
    transferring
                                                                                                                                                                                  old data I just piggyback the old drive, my current machine 
    has THREE hard
                                                                                                                                                                                  drives),

                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, I'm curious as to what this puppy 
    is.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ 
    prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ 
    don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio 
    n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ 
    group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ 
    group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9640
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don, Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          I have 
found the my message with the mention of Hobbies Inc being wood and metal. It is 
message 8423 (not 8523). I will now have to dig into the info to see where the 
wood came in. I, right now, only remember they were solid one piece body 
castings. Give me some time. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:46 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PING Jim 
  H.-Brass & wood E-6
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 8523, you mentioned a wood and stamped aluminum E by "Hobbies 
  Inc."

                                                                                                                                                                                  I just went downstairs and rummaged around, finding I made 
  several 
                                                                                                                                                                                  misstatements.

                                                                                                                                                                                  The body shell IS aluminum, not brass, and 
  the truck sideframes ARE brass.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, do you think I;m guessing 
  correctly that this is the Hobbies Inc. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  unit?

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don 
  Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
  Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:26 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PING Jim 
  H.-Brass & wood E-6

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  I have been going back reading past 
  Emails from your site about the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  discussions of Crescent and Dallas Model 
  Craft E unit diesels but haven't 
                                                                                                                                                                                  found any talk of one with a wooden nose 
  yet. Was it possible the talk was 
                                                                                                                                                                                  about Strombecker wood E type diesels 
  ???? I've been trying to refresh my 
                                                                                                                                                                                  tired senile memory but so many Emails 
  and topics have been taking place ( 
                                                                                                                                                                                  you have a very popular site).
                                                                                                                                                                                  I 
  can't ID the pictures you show. I have nothing to match with it in 
                                                                                                                                                                                  my 
  collection. I have to start looking in my treasure trove of literature to 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  try to come up with something for you. I will continue to go through this 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  paperwork but with no index it means page by page. Sorry I can't help 
  right 
                                                                                                                                                                                  now.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Don 
  Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
  Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass 
  & wood E-6 [7 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                  [Attachment( s) from Don Dellmann 
  included below]

                                                                                                                                                                                  A few weeks ago as part of a discussion on a Crescent 
  E-6 on eBay, I
                                                                                                                                                                                  mentioned one I have that's brass sheet with a wooden nose. 
  Jim, you made 
                                                                                                                                                                                  a
                                                                                                                                                                                  comment some months back in another thread that leads 
  to believe me you've
                                                                                                                                                                                  seen one of these before. I finally found the pictures 
  tucked away in a
                                                                                                                                                                                  corner of my G drive (every time I replace computes, 
  instead of 
                                                                                                                                                                                  transferring
                                                                                                                                                                                  old data I just piggyback the old drive, my 
  current machine has THREE hard
                                                                                                                                                                                  drives),

                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, I'm curious as to 
  what this puppy is.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9641
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, I don't have the original messages for some reason, or numbers, but below are two different threads where your message mentions wood with e units.  never a nose though.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:28 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd possible E unit

                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim Heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Chris, and All
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> According to the description that the seller wrote "E" style 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> body. I'm not sure it is an E style body. The windows on the side of 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> the cab actually look more like a PA 1 because of the third window but 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> of course it isn't a PA 1. Doesn't match any of the E units I have or 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> see in books. Seller says heavy machined brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> construction , EXCELLENT SOLDERING OR MACHINING. I can't tell from 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> pictures where. I thought at first from picture showing inside of
 body 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> that it was a one piece casting. Other pictures suggest to me a model 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> that has been assembled, not one casting. Cab looks added. Seller says 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> looks like a 1950's General Motors promo / train of tomorrow. No idea 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> what this was or would look like.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> I do know what it is NOT. Because it is heavy cast (seller claims 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> bronze) it takes out all sheet metal engines from Japan like IMP 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> (International) . As for cast brass or bronze items because of style, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> details, materials it is not; Harris Matucci solid cast brass and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> different look, Dallas Model Craft/Dallas Model Co kit with many cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> parts some of which were brass, JS Cambron which was one piece cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> metal, Crescent which was a sheet brass kit, Cary which was die cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> lead body, Hobbies Inc which is wood and stamped
 aluminum kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> I'm starting to think a project engine of different pieces well done 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> to represent ?????
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > The Train of Tomorrow had an standard E7 with decorative trim - 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://www.thewhist lestop.com/ catalog/gmtot. htm, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > your cast body seems to be a E1 , most likely an ATSF unit in the later 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > modernized configuration with altered headligh and Mars light added. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > picture clearly shows the long , three panel engine room windows unique 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > to this series, and the third cab side window - a carryover from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > M.10.000 trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  I thought that too, but the nose doesn't look long enough, 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
                                                                                                                                                                                   John Hagen 

                                                                                                                                                                                  To:
                                                                                                                                                                                   vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent:
                                                                                                                                                                                   Friday, August 29, 2008 10:31 AM 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject:
                                                                                                                                                                                   [vintageHO] Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's 

                                                                                                                                                                                  I see this, like many model FT's does not use the proper truck 
                                                                                                                                                                                  placement. And from the box top, neither does the "A" unit. 

                                                                                                                                                                                  I understand we are discussing the history of HO and what was, was. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  But I do think that while we have a fervent interest in old models 
                                                                                                                                                                                  and an equally strong desire to own such artifacts, we must also 
                                                                                                                                                                                  admit to their shortcomings. Elsewise, by what standards can we judge 
                                                                                                                                                                                  the advances made in the hobby. Or, for that matter, which early 
                                                                                                                                                                                  model manufacturers produced the better product. After all we are 
                                                                                                                                                                                  still modelers of prototype railroad equipment.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Short and sweet, the good olde days, fascinating as they may be, were 
                                                                                                                                                                                  not always THAT good.

                                                                                                                                                                                  John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  ST Francis (formerly Town of Lake), WI.

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > HI
 Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > "Met" your friend Russell from Australia. "Talked" with a man 
                                                                                                                                                                                  from Great Britain. A truly International group. On to the main 
                                                                                                                                                                                  topic. HO trains
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Today I have sent pictures of a DMC FT unit. DMC made a set 
                                                                                                                                                                                  A&B. I only have the unpowered B unit so far. A friend in California 
                                                                                                                                                                                  has a powered A unit. He has promised to trade (give maybe) this A 
                                                                                                                                                                                  unit to me. So far I can't pry it out of him.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > The box shows both the E units and the FT's on top. I'm pretty 
                                                                                                                                                                                  sure these were the only engines DMC produced. (any one else have 
                                                                                                                                                                                  others) One end of this box says "DMC Freight Diesel B Superstructure 
                                                                                                                                                                                  and other end has the address. On the long sides Side one has 
                                                                                                                                                                                  pictures of 4 wheel power unit, 6 wheel gear box and one I never 
                                                                                                                                                                                  heard of till now BARNEY Power unit. The other long side has a 
                                                                                                                                                                                  picture of one of their streamlined passenger cars. The words " For 
                                                                                                                                                                                  those that want the finest" appears also.
 Tomorrow I will show one of 
                                                                                                                                                                                  the passenger cars that is a mint kit with original box with plans.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Construction similar to the DMC E units but all parts are an 
                                                                                                                                                                                  aluminum type material again with embossed sides. I have found no 
                                                                                                                                                                                  markings inside to say cast by A&S but have to think they would be 
                                                                                                                                                                                  the caster. The frame underneath is a long piece of brass that the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  trucks screw onto. There is a block of wood on top of this and the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  superstructure (body) sets on it. Actually a nice looking item.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Have a good 
                                                                                                                                                                                  one Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 8:18:16 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don, Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          I have found the my message with the mention of Hobbies Inc being wood and metal. It is message 8423 (not 8523). I will now have to dig into the info to see where the wood came in. I, right now, only remember they were solid one piece body castings. Give me some time. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:46 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 8523, you mentioned a wood and stamped aluminum E by "Hobbies Inc."

                                                                                                                                                                                  I just went downstairs and rummaged around, finding I made several 
                                                                                                                                                                                  misstatements.

                                                                                                                                                                                  The body shell IS aluminum, not brass, and the truck sideframes ARE brass.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, do you think I;m guessing correctly that this is the Hobbies Inc. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  unit?

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:26 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  I have been going back reading past Emails from your site about the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  discussions of Crescent and Dallas Model Craft E unit diesels but haven't 
                                                                                                                                                                                  found any talk of one with a wooden nose yet. Was it possible the talk was 
                                                                                                                                                                                  about Strombecker wood E type diesels ???? I've been trying to refresh my 
                                                                                                                                                                                  tired senile memory but so many Emails and topics have been taking
 place ( 
                                                                                                                                                                                  you have a very popular site).
                                                                                                                                                                                  I can't ID the pictures you show. I have nothing to match with it in 
                                                                                                                                                                                  my collection. I have to start looking in my treasure trove of literature to 
                                                                                                                                                                                  try to come up with something for you. I will continue to go through this 
                                                                                                                                                                                  paperwork but with no index it means page by page. Sorry I can't help right 
                                                                                                                                                                                  now.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6 [7 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                  [Attachment( s) from Don Dellmann included below]

                                                                                                                                                                                  A few weeks ago as part of a discussion on a Crescent E-6 on eBay, I
                                                                                                                                                                                  mentioned one I have that's brass sheet with a wooden nose. Jim, you made 
                                                                                                                                                                                  a
                                                                                                                                                                                  comment some months back in another thread that
 leads to believe me you've
                                                                                                                                                                                  seen one of these before. I finally found the pictures tucked away in a
                                                                                                                                                                                  corner of my G drive (every time I replace computes, instead of 
                                                                                                                                                                                  transferring
                                                                                                                                                                                  old data I just piggyback the old drive, my current machine has THREE hard
                                                                                                                                                                                  drives),

                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, I'm curious as to what this puppy is.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery


                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9642
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: PFM  Whitcomb ad
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Well Karl,  I just took my D-2 and D-3 Penn Line Whitcombs apart and no writing of "Penn Line" where I thought it was.  "Penn Line" appears on the underside of the front footboards.  So likely that writing that partially shows in the ad is indeeed something like "Made in Japan."  Still think there is a chance that they did use the Penn Line dies, though, as it is inconceivable that they, either PFM or their Japanese contractor, would tool a complete set of dies for zamac castings for only 300 units to retail at $10 each. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Anyway, like you, I am now happy to be exercising the little critters!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
,  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Karl Peters <krlpeters@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> You may be right. I looked at my copy of the magazine, and it does appear there are three words there.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Haven't found were my PFM Whitcomb is yet, but did find my Penn Line version [it is a D-2]. There is no lettering inside the cab roof that I can see.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  After a cleaning and oiling, it is happily growling it's way around my little test track as I write this. Was a basket case that I picked up for $5.00; had to replace the wheels and handrails, will also need to be stripped and repainted.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9643
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris, Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks for the 
copy of the message. I had just found the message is 8423. I am reading it over 
to refresh my memory. It originally dealt with an unknown E unit I was following 
on Ebay.  I eventually won it but couldn't decide if manufactured 
or someone's project. I have read the message about 10 times to try to figure 
out my mention of wood and Hobbies Inc. All the other info is right but I 
can't find my Hobbies Inc info to check. I have put in an urgent request to a 
friend to help me out. I remember Hobbies Inc producing 2 types of solid one 
piece castings. I have ask this friend to verify the types (PA and E unit) 
and what metal they are cast in. I also ask where or why I mentioned wood and 
stamped aluminum kit. Waiting for answers. Even if I mixed up 
information writing a long message with many facts I still don't remember any 
wood and stamped aluminum kit like yours that I mentioned.in this Email 
unless my brain was going faster then my single finger typing.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  . No sleep tonight.  I must figure this 
out.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Later      Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 8:21 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PING Jim 
  H.-Brass & wood E-6
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, I don't have the original messages for some reason, or numbers, but 
  below are two different threads where your message mentions wood with e 
  units.  never a nose though.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, 
  January 27, 2009 1:28 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd possible E 
  unit

                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim Heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Chris, and All
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> 
  According to the description that the seller wrote "E" style 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> 
  body. I'm not sure it is an E style body. The windows on the side of 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> the cab actually look more like a PA 1 because of the third 
  window but 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> of course it isn't a PA 1. Doesn't match any of the E 
  units I have or 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> see in books. Seller says heavy machined brass 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> construction , EXCELLENT SOLDERING OR MACHINING. I can't tell 
  from 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> pictures where. I thought at first from picture showing 
  inside of body 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> that it was a one piece casting. Other pictures 
  suggest to me a model 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> that has been assembled, not one casting. 
  Cab looks added. Seller says 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> looks like a 1950's General Motors 
  promo / train of tomorrow. No idea 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> what this was or would look 
  like.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> I do know what it is NOT. Because it is heavy cast (seller 
  claims 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> bronze) it takes out all sheet metal engines from Japan 
  like IMP 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> (International) . As for cast brass or bronze items 
  because of style, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> details, materials it is not; Harris Matucci 
  solid cast brass and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> different look, Dallas Model Craft/Dallas 
  Model Co kit with many cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> parts some of which were brass, JS 
  Cambron which was one piece cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> metal, Crescent which was a 
  sheet brass kit, Cary which was die cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> lead body, Hobbies Inc 
  which is wood and stamped aluminum 
  kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> I'm starting to think a project engine of different pieces 
  well done 
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> to represent ?????
                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > The Train of Tomorrow had an standard E7 with decorative 
  trim - 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://www.thewhist lestop.com/ catalog/gmtot. 
  htm, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > your cast body seems to be a E1 , most likely an 
  ATSF unit in the later 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > modernized configuration with altered headligh 
  and Mars light added. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > picture clearly shows the long , three 
  panel engine room windows unique 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > to this series, and the third cab 
  side window - a carryover from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > M.10.000 trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  I thought that too, but the nose doesn't look long enough, 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
                                                                                                                                                                                   John 
  Hagen 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  To:
                                                                                                                                                                                   vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent:
                                                                                                                                                                                   Friday, August 29, 2008 10:31 AM 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject:
                                                                                                                                                                                   [vintageHO] Re: Dallas Model Craft FT's 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  I see this, like many model FT's does not use the proper truck 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  placement. And from the box top, neither does the "A" unit. 

                                                                                                                                                                                  I 
  understand we are discussing the history of HO and what was, was. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  But I do 
  think that while we have a fervent interest in old models 
                                                                                                                                                                                  and an equally 
  strong desire to own such artifacts, we must also 
                                                                                                                                                                                  admit to their 
  shortcomings. Elsewise, by what standards can we judge 
                                                                                                                                                                                  the advances made 
  in the hobby. Or, for that matter, which early 
                                                                                                                                                                                  model manufacturers 
  produced the better product. After all we are 
                                                                                                                                                                                  still modelers of prototype 
  railroad equipment.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Short and sweet, the good olde days, fascinating as 
  they may be, were 
                                                                                                                                                                                  not always THAT good.

                                                                                                                                                                                  John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  ST Francis 
  (formerly Town of Lake), WI.

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Jim Heckard" 
  <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > HI Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                  > "Met" your 
  friend Russell from Australia. "Talked" with a man 
                                                                                                                                                                                  from Great Britain. A 
  truly International group. On to the main 
                                                                                                                                                                                  topic. HO trains
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Today I 
  have sent pictures of a DMC FT unit. DMC made a set 
                                                                                                                                                                                  A&B. I only have 
  the unpowered B unit so far. A friend in California 
                                                                                                                                                                                  has a powered A unit. 
  He has promised to trade (give maybe) this A 
                                                                                                                                                                                  unit to me. So far I can't 
  pry it out of him.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > The box shows both the E units and the FT's on top. 
  I'm pretty 
                                                                                                                                                                                  sure these were the only engines DMC produced. (any one else 
  have 
                                                                                                                                                                                  others) One end of this box says "DMC Freight Diesel B Superstructure 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  and other end has the address. On the long sides Side one has 
                                                                                                                                                                                  pictures 
  of 4 wheel power unit, 6 wheel gear box and one I never 
                                                                                                                                                                                  heard of till now 
  BARNEY Power unit. The other long side has a 
                                                                                                                                                                                  picture of one of their 
  streamlined passenger cars. The words " For 
                                                                                                                                                                                  those that want the finest" 
  appears also. Tomorrow I will show one of 
                                                                                                                                                                                  the passenger cars that is a 
  mint kit with original box with plans.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Construction similar to the DMC 
  E units but all parts are an 
                                                                                                                                                                                  aluminum type material again with embossed 
  sides. I have found no 
                                                                                                                                                                                  markings inside to say cast by A&S but have to 
  think they would be 
                                                                                                                                                                                  the caster. The frame underneath is a long piece of 
  brass that the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  trucks screw onto. There is a block of wood on top of this and the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  superstructure (body) 
  sets on it. Actually a nice looking item.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Have a good 
                                                                                                                                                                                  one 
  Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: jim heckard 
  <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 8:18:16 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Don, Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          I have 
  found the my message with the mention of Hobbies Inc being wood and metal. It 
  is message 8423 (not 8523). I will now have to dig into the info to see where 
  the wood came in. I, right now, only remember they were solid one piece body 
  castings. Give me some time. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:46 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PING Jim 
    H.-Brass & wood E-6
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  Message 8523, you mentioned a wood and stamped aluminum E by "Hobbies 
    Inc."

                                                                                                                                                                                  I just went downstairs and rummaged around, finding I made 
    several 
                                                                                                                                                                                  misstatements.

                                                                                                                                                                                  The body shell IS aluminum, not brass, and 
    the truck sideframes ARE brass.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, do you think I;m guessing 
    correctly that this is the Hobbies Inc. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  unit?

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don 
    Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ 
    prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ 
    don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio 
    n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ 
    group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ 
    group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "jim 
    heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
    <vintageHO@yahoogrou 
    ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:26 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: 
    [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  I have been 
    going back reading past Emails from your site about the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  discussions of 
    Crescent and Dallas Model Craft E unit diesels but haven't 
                                                                                                                                                                                  found any 
    talk of one with a wooden nose yet. Was it possible the talk was 
                                                                                                                                                                                  about 
    Strombecker wood E type diesels ???? I've been trying to refresh my 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                  tired senile memory but so many Emails and topics have been taking place 
    ( 
                                                                                                                                                                                  you have a very popular site).
                                                                                                                                                                                  I can't ID the pictures you show. I 
    have nothing to match with it in 
                                                                                                                                                                                  my collection. I have to start looking 
    in my treasure trove of literature to 
                                                                                                                                                                                  try to come up with something for 
    you. I will continue to go through this 
                                                                                                                                                                                  paperwork but with no index it 
    means page by page. Sorry I can't help right 
                                                                                                                                                                                  now.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- 
    Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou 
    ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] 
    PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6 [7 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                  [Attachment( s) from 
    Don Dellmann included below]

                                                                                                                                                                                  A few weeks ago as part of a discussion 
    on a Crescent E-6 on eBay, I
                                                                                                                                                                                  mentioned one I have that's brass sheet with 
    a wooden nose. Jim, you made 
                                                                                                                                                                                  a
                                                                                                                                                                                  comment some months back in another 
    thread that leads to believe me you've
                                                                                                                                                                                  seen one of these before. I 
    finally found the pictures tucked away in a
                                                                                                                                                                                  corner of my G drive (every 
    time I replace computes, instead of 
                                                                                                                                                                                  transferring
                                                                                                                                                                                  old data I just 
    piggyback the old drive, my current machine has THREE 
    hard
                                                                                                                                                                                  drives),

                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, I'm curious as to what this puppy 
    is.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ 
    prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ 
    don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio 
    n
                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ 
    group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ 
    group/scenery


                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9644
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  The "quick" ID is overhanging cab roof, H-10-44.  No overhang at the rear, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
H-12-44.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 6:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Barr-Nixon FM?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
   The Barr Nixon paperwork has been posted on HOseeker. There are two 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
sheets. One is the plan with instructions. Larry (HOseeker) made a second 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
page (bigger print) of the instructions. Still have not had time to verify 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the H10-44 part but it is Fairbanks Morse. Again I can send pictures of mine 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: Gerold Eckl
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 3:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Subject: [vintageHO] Barr-Nixon FM?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Have just bought a FM body on a Tempo drive, for the pricy sum of
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  $19.95. Seems thats a Barr-Nixon model, I assume it was intended to
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  represent a H10-44?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230336449043
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Gerold 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9645
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: mix up
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim,  No harm as I figured it would sort itself out, but was concerned that Ray might be pegged for any of my errors or omissions, too! Now back to the locomotives!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Ray W,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>        Thanks for pointing out that I was putting your name instead of the right name.  Ray W, Jay W.  Close but no cigar.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Ray W    You must realize that it is because you are such a popular guy.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jay W     I apologize for not giving proper credit 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>               Hopefully you both will forgive my foolish ways.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9646
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Quick but...
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
The last H10-44 was shipped in 04/50 to the Indianapolis Union Terminal. The first H12-44, with extended roof was shipped to the Milwaukee (#1826 and #1827) in 05/50. The first H12-44's sans extended cab roof was a six unit order for the SP, five of which were shipped in 09/52 and the sixth in 10/52. If my counting is correct there were something like 93 extended roof H12-44's built out of a total of 306 U.S. produced H12-44's (30 more were built in Canada). Total production of the H10-44 was only 132, all U.S., meaning that the H12-44 account for approximately 40% of all the extended cab switchers built by F.M.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The "quick" ID is overhanging cab roof, H-10-44.  No overhang at the rear, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> H-12-44.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9647
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  I knew there was some overlap, that's why I put "quick" in quotes.  I just 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
didn't realize there were so many.  I also didn't mention the similar 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
H-20-44.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 11:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Quick but...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The last H10-44 was shipped in 04/50 to the Indianapolis Union Terminal. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The first H12-44, with extended roof was shipped to the Milwaukee (#1826 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and #1827) in 05/50. The first H12-44's sans extended cab roof was a six 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> unit order for the SP, five of which were shipped in 09/52 and the sixth 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> in 10/52. If my counting is correct there were something like 93 extended 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> roof H12-44's built out of a total of 306 U.S. produced H12-44's (30 more 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> were built in Canada). Total production of the H10-44 was only 132, all 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> U.S., meaning that the H12-44 account for approximately 40% of all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> extended cab switchers built by F.M.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> The "quick" ID is overhanging cab roof, H-10-44.  No overhang at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> rear,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> H-12-44.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9648
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Don,  The basic carbody for the FM H-10-44 and H-12-44 was the same (except for possible louver differences later).  They both started out as 6 cylinder units and were afterwards upgraded to 8 cylinders during their production lifetime.  Aside from the changes (extended vs. sans extended) in the cab roofs, other (minor) changes were made in the louvers/screening of the H-12-44 after September 1952, starting with the six-unit order by SP that John points out.  Walthers offers a kit (Part No. 247-264) for this conversion.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
The FM H-20-44 is quite similar in appearance, but because this was a 10 cylinder unit, it's carbody is 2' 10" longer (and 4' wider) than the preceeding two FM's.  Unless a model manufacturer produced one, you would need to kitbash this using two shells to extend it.  There may have been one produced in imported brass, I don't know.  Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I knew there was some overlap, that's why I put "quick" in quotes.  I just 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> didn't realize there were so many.  I also didn't mention the similar 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> H-20-44.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 11:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Quick but...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > The last H10-44 was shipped in 04/50 to the Indianapolis Union Terminal. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > The first H12-44, with extended roof was shipped to the Milwaukee (#1826 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > and #1827) in 05/50. The first H12-44's sans extended cab roof was a six 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > unit order for the SP, five of which were shipped in 09/52 and the sixth 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > in 10/52. If my counting is correct there were something like 93 extended 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > roof H12-44's built out of a total of 306 U.S. produced H12-44's (30 more 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > were built in Canada). Total production of the H10-44 was only 132, all 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > U.S., meaning that the H12-44 account for approximately 40% of all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > extended cab switchers built by F.M.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> The "quick" ID is overhanging cab roof, H-10-44.  No overhang at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> rear,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> H-12-44.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> don.dellmann@
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9649
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PFM  Whitcomb ad
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  That is a VERY interesting picture of the Whitcomb.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
The pic shows the Whitcomb with the LITTLE drivers
                                                                                                                                                                                  
that disappeared about 1958-59, replaced with 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the much larger drivers by 58-59.  While the ad
                                                                                                                                                                                  
clearly shows the Whitcomb I find it strange that
                                                                                                                                                                                  
it shows the smaller drivers.  That along with
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the previously noted production of 300 units makes
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the item suspect in my book.  I really need to be
                                                                                                                                                                                  
convinced with a pic of the PFM Whitcomb and the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Whitcomb box end with the PFM logo on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
On the other item pictured - it looks for all the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
world, to me, like the Rivarossi offering of the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
late 50's.  It was also sold by Polks and AHM.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have the same doubts, already mentioned about
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the Whitcomb, and the docksider. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
If, indeed, PFM actually offered these items it
                                                                                                                                                                                  
seems to me that someone here has one or both items.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Joe O'Loughlin 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Here is the ad from the September 1965 RMC. Not sure, but it seems to me 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> there is "made in Japan" cast into the cab roof?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I may send it off line in higher resolution if desired.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9650
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: errors and omissions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      JAY W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          You talk 
about the errors that you made. There isn't a person in this group hasn't made 
them, some more then others (me). None of us want to make an error because it 
can confuse the issue which sometimes is convoluted enough. Our topics / 
information sometimes get very long in an attempt to say everything. The 
possibility of errors and omissions , no matter how much spell check or the 
number of times we read it over, doesn't go away as we share information on so 
many subjects many at the same time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         I know I'm 
guilty (and don't try to do it) so I deserve 20 lashes with a wet 
noodle.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9651
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Barr Nixon FM Switcher
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm 
sending these pictures of my Barr Nixon switcher so all can know what is being 
talked about. The pros out there who can ID the real thing have identified it as 
an H-10-44. The paperwork with the engines just calls it a 1000 HP Fairbanks 
Morse Switcher.    My info has it was made, the model, in 
1948. The rights to the engine were later sold to Sampsom who sold it 
starting 1950.   Sampson was an HO company noted for extruded metal 
passenger cars. More on Sampson will appear down the road but I am limiting 
this Email to the Barr Nixon item.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                          It came 
in a box (picture shown) as sheet brass parts that you soldered together 
according to the large set of plans / assembly sheet ( picture included but 
better able to read / view on HOseeker site). The engine was for a body only. 
You supplied the motor, drive, trucks and side frames. Normally a Lindsay motor 
was used. My engine came assembled with the Varney variable pulley /coil spring 
belt set up already in it. This of course is NOT the right type side frames 
for this engine .
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                           I 
have also sent a picture of an ad sheet that came in the box telling you about 
the engine and it's features .
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9652
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Don's engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                            I have not been 
able to identify your engine yet. I have been putting more time into trying to 
figure out my statement in that Email where I mentioned Hobbies Inc along with 
wood/ aluminum kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                            I am starting to 
read Emails before this one in attempt to see anything that might have lead me 
to write this wrong statement. Hobbies Inc were (both items) solid one piece 
body castings only. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm thinking that 
originally what now looks like one sentence, tying both facts together, 
started out as two different things. I either never finished typing what would 
have been in the middle (brain faster then the typing) or I some how deleted 
part. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                            Off now to 
relatives for Easter dinner. Definitely the most important thing on my list. 
More about your engine later.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9653
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PFM  Whitcomb ad
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Joe O'Loughlin,  All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
You made an interesting observation about those smaller drivers on the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
PFM Whitcomb.  I agree it will be interesting to see the PFM version
                                                                                                                                                                                  
with its original packaging.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
As to doubts about Ryan Sr., of PFM, jumping into a much lower price
                                                                                                                                                                                  
range, it might be easier to look at it this way, placed in a historical
                                                                                                                                                                                  
context.  Those early 1960's were a difficult time for model
                                                                                                                                                                                  
railroading.  Many, including industry insiders were saying it was a
                                                                                                                                                                                  
dead hobby,  had no future, slot cars were the next thing.  Varney, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
MDC-Roundhouse,  Penn Line and even Athearn invested heavilly into the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
slot car craze, Athearn taking more time for development, pulled the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
plug before production.  Early in President Kennedy's term, the stock
                                                                                                                                                                                  
market had its biggest crash since the depression, (still the third or
                                                                                                                                                                                  
fourth worst).
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sol Kramer kept Varney going with his shrink wrapped "Tartan" dollar
                                                                                                                                                                                  
cars and $6.95 Docksiders, all even cheaper in the dicount stores where
                                                                                                                                                                                  
many middle class people were now shopping.  I have a few of those
                                                                                                                                                                                  
shrink wrapped "Tartan" line cars with E.J. Korvetts (full line, not
                                                                                                                                                                                  
closeout, discount store of the '60's in the Northeast) price stickers
                                                                                                                                                                                  
of 69 cents.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Facing that and committed to continuing importing his line of
                                                                                                                                                                                  
beautifully crafted models, I'm sure Ryan thought he needed to attract
                                                                                                                                                                                  
new customers, show them PFM quality and the Docksider and little
                                                                                                                                                                                  
"Plymouth" labled Whitcomb diesel were a way to do this.  He pretty much
                                                                                                                                                                                  
says so in the fine print at the bottom of the ad, where he invites
                                                                                                                                                                                  
people to see the Docksider and new catalog of many other fine models
                                                                                                                                                                                  
avaiable.  The PFM/Sakura Docksider I have seen has a nice PFM style
                                                                                                                                                                                  
box.   This low cost, loss leader philosophy is not unlike that of many
                                                                                                                                                                                  
manufacturers of quality items today.    (I would not be surprised that
                                                                                                                                                                                  
successfull time Cadillac dealer Ryan also sold a companion GM line of
                                                                                                                                                                                  
lower cost cars, as many other Cadillac dealers did as well.)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
And although I long harbored and put the theory out there that PFM might
                                                                                                                                                                                  
have gained ownership of those old Varney "High Headlight" Docksider
                                                                                                                                                                                  
dies that we are told (in Spanagel's "Varney Guide") that Lewis English
                                                                                                                                                                                  
could not locate in the Varney factory and Varney home in Florida, I am
                                                                                                                                                                                  
now going to poke some holes in it after closely examing the photos and
                                                                                                                                                                                  
my diecast metal Varneys.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
(A) The Sakura version pictured has two visible circular "die plugs" on
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the side of the tank, one near the lower front foot step, one higher
                                                                                                                                                                                  
near the cab.  Neither the diecast metal or diecast plastic Varney "High
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Headlight" models show such "plugs," at least on the two of each HH
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Varneys that I have, three of my four are new old stock.  (B) The
                                                                                                                                                                                  
smokebox bolt pattern on the Sakura Docksider exhibits a strange pattern
                                                                                                                                                                                  
of rays or fins radiating inward from the outer bolts, which is quite
                                                                                                                                                                                  
unlike the Varney (or even Rivarossi models).  The sign of an diemaker
                                                                                                                                                                                  
not familiar with the configuration of a steam locomotive smokebox
                                                                                                                                                                                  
front?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
So possibly  Sakura made a new set of dies, and  according to the "Brown
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Book" (not always completely accurate, either) PFM sold 3,250 in the US,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sakura probably more in Japan, expensive new dies may have been cost
                                                                                                                                                                                  
effective when one is speaking of several thousand units in terms of die
                                                                                                                                                                                  
engraving cost in early 1960's Japanese labor.  One would have to know
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the approximate number of  hours needed to create those dies and the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Japanese die-maker's wage at that time to really be sure, a reasearch
                                                                                                                                                                                  
project I, for one, am not pursuing. (LOL!)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
But as for the Little Whitcomb marketed by PFM, I still think there is a
                                                                                                                                                                                  
strong connection to the Penn Line models, not simply a copy.  That low
                                                                                                                                                                                  
number published makes new "copy" dies highly unlikely.  And Ryan's own
                                                                                                                                                                                  
words at the bottom of that ad also signify that PFM never intended this
                                                                                                                                                                                  
to be more than a small run.  How do I conclude that?  By his mention
                                                                                                                                                                                  
that one could find the Docksider in his new catalog, he did not say
                                                                                                                                                                                  
both.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
It will be fun to finally unravel this story.  Anyone know if PFM's Ryan
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jr. is still around?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> That is a VERY interesting picture of the Whitcomb.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The pic shows the Whitcomb with the LITTLE drivers
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> that disappeared about 1958-59, replaced with
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the much larger drivers by 58-59. While the ad
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> clearly shows the Whitcomb I find it strange that
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> it shows the smaller drivers. That along with
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the previously noted production of 300 units makes
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the item suspect in my book. I really need to be
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> convinced with a pic of the PFM Whitcomb and the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Whitcomb box end with the PFM logo on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> On the other item pictured - it looks for all the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> world, to me, like the Rivarossi offering of the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> late 50's. It was also sold by Polks and AHM.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have the same doubts, already mentioned about
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the Whitcomb, and the docksider.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> If, indeed, PFM actually offered these items it
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> seems to me that someone here has one or both items.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl corv8@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Here is the ad from the September 1965 RMC. Not sure, but it seems
                                                                                                                                                                                  
to me
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > there is "made in Japan" cast into the cab roof?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I may send it off line in higher resolution if desired.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9654
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: errors and omissions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H, One thing I have been guilty of is casual mention of models "B" or "C" when we are still discussing "A", adding to the complexity of our discussions, (as I almost did again when the lack of different vintage small industrial sized locomotives was raised) so I will wait for more opportune times to discuss the "B" and "C's" and it will also give me more time to research dates and references, too. W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     JAY W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>         You talk about the errors that you made. There isn't a person in this group hasn't made them, some more then others (me). None of us want to make an error because it can confuse the issue which sometimes is convoluted enough. Our topics / information sometimes get very long in an attempt to say everything. The possibility of errors and omissions , no matter how much spell check or the number of times we read it over, doesn't go away as we share information on so many subjects many at the same time.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>        I know I'm guilty (and don't try to do it) so I deserve 20 lashes with a wet noodle.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9655
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  John Hagen wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   > Quick but...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The last H10-44 was shipped in 04/50 to the Indianapolis Union
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Terminal. The first H12-44, with extended roof was shipped to the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Milwaukee (#1826 and #1827) in 05/50. The first H12-44's sans
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> extended cab roof was a six unit order for the SP, five of which were
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> shipped in 09/52 and the sixth in 10/52. If my counting is correct
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> there were something like 93 extended roof H12-44's built out of a
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> total of 306 U.S. produced H12-44's (30 more were built in Canada).
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Total production of the H10-44 was only 132, all U.S., meaning that
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the H12-44 account for approximately 40% of all the extended cab
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> switchers built by F.M.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      What's the model number for the Trainmaster? H16-something I think? 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Would have liked to buy one or two of the Atlas models they had out in 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Black Widow paint several years ago but wasn't in the budget.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Can you cry under water?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9656
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 10:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
> John Hagen wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Quick but...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> The last H10-44 was shipped in 04/50 to the Indianapolis Union
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Terminal. The first H12-44, with extended roof was shipped to the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Milwaukee (#1826 and #1827) in 05/50. The first H12-44's sans
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> extended cab roof was a six unit order for the SP, five of which were
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> shipped in 09/52 and the sixth in 10/52. If my counting is correct
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> there were something like 93 extended roof H12-44's built out of a
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> total of 306 U.S. produced H12-44's (30 more were built in Canada).
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Total production of the H10-44 was only 132, all U.S., meaning that
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> the H12-44 account for approximately 40% of all the extended cab
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> switchers built by F.M.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>    What's the model number for the Trainmaster? H16-something I think? 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Would have liked to buy one or two of the Atlas models they had out in 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Black Widow paint several years ago but wasn't in the budget.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Can you cry under water?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
The TrainMaster was an H-24-6-6  (2400 HP, two 6 wheel trucks)
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9657
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr Nixon FM Switcher
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Say Jim (H.),
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm looking over your Barr-Nixon plans right now, they seem to show the exact profile of the early Varney 1663 K power truck shown on page 73 of Spangel's "Varney Guide" although illustrated with the early Varney part #1664 truck sideframes. The illustration also notes that early in 1947, detailed Electromotive side frames will be avaiable.  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
So even though we know use of the EMD Blomberg truck sideframes was not prototypical for the new FM switchers, the builder of your kit was pretty much following what was illustrated on the Barr-Nixon instruction sheet.  I don't have one, but always thought the Barr-Nixon, like so many other models, was designed from the start for the Lindsay system. Maybe for the F-M switcher, that was the case for the Sampson-era kits?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
BTW, I have an almost complete #1663 K kit with original #1664 side frames (less motor and 1655 cover plate) and was always wondering what I might use it for, now have a good candidate when I find my Barr-Nixon F-M and one of those cover plates!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Well, Easter dinner coming next for me too, so a happy Easter to all celebrating, and hope all who celebrated Passover this past week had a happy time with family and friends, too!
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>         I'm sending these pictures of my Barr Nixon switcher so all can know what is being talked about. The pros out there who can ID the real thing have identified it as an H-10-44. The paperwork with the engines just calls it a 1000 HP Fairbanks Morse Switcher.    My info has it was made, the model, in 1948. The rights to the engine were later sold to Sampsom who sold it starting 1950.   Sampson was an HO company noted for extruded metal passenger cars. More on Sampson will appear down the road but I am limiting this Email to the Barr Nixon item.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>         It came in a box (picture shown) as sheet brass parts that you soldered together according to the large set of plans / assembly sheet ( picture included but better able to read / view on HOseeker site). The engine was for a body only. You supplied the motor, drive, trucks and side frames. Normally a Lindsay motor was used. My engine came assembled with the Varney variable pulley /coil spring belt set up already in it. This of course is NOT the right type side frames for this engine .
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>          I have also sent a picture of an ad sheet that came in the box telling you about the engine and it's features .
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9658
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 4/12/2009 11:49:03 AM EDT, Rick Jones asked:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  What's the model number for the Trainmaster?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  -------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  H-24-66, i.e., Hood-type carbody, 24 hundered horsepower, 6 axles, 6 motors.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Ral;ph B

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 or less.                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9659
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  H-24-66   Atlas loco is nice, but does not have the proper train indicators 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
("Bugboards") for the SP Units.  Since the SP's TM's  were in the San 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Francisco-San Jose Commute Pool, the FM switchers were assigned to the Bay 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Area as well--they got down to Monterey and Salinas--  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 8:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
> John Hagen wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9660
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PFM  Whitcomb ad
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> It will be fun to finally unravel this story.  Anyone know if PFM's Ryan
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jr. is still around?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      No idea about now, but I believe he was the person I was in contact 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
with at PFM about a dozen years ago. I contacted PFM looking for parts 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
for some of my models.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    I had a Climax that I bought in 1970 which had broken the plastic 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
drive shaft to the rear truck, as well as the plastic grommet into which 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
the rear truck was amounted. He didn't have any on hand, but somehow he 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
was able to track down the son of the owner of United in Japan and get 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
some from him, which he sent to me at no charge!
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    I also had an Shay that I bought used from someone. From what I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
been able to tell from old catalogs it was made in the late '50s or 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
early '60s. This Shay had, instead of a plastic drive shaft to the rear 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
truck for insulation, a plastic sleeve inside the larger square tube 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
into which the small square shaft from the rear truck slid. That plastic 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  sleeving was destroyed when I put the model through an ultrasonic 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
cleaner with tarnish remover, trying to clean up the serious tarnish on 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
it. Mr. Ryan couldn't provide replacement parts for that, but told me 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
how to put thin plastic around the smaller square shaft to insulate it 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
when, then slip it into the larger square tube connected to the cylinders.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    I also asked about the noisy gear towers in my Tenshodo GN 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
articulateds. He sold me several replacements with plastic gears that I 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
could try. These were the only parts he charged me for.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    I've always been very impressed at the effort he put out to find me 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
parts for that old Climax, and then didn't charge me anything for them.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
neither do we."
                                                                                                                                                                                  
    -George W. Bush
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9661
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Rick,  Looks like you're thinking of the FM H-16-24 "Baby" Trainmaster, with 4-wheel trucks.  Then there's the standard Trainmaster -- H-24-66, with 6-wheel trucks (as Don brought out).  A good number of Roads used the H-16-24; you can get this from Bowser either as just a Cary shell - Bowser #113051 (using your drive) or as a complete Bowser powered kit - Bowser #113001.  If using just the cast body, Bowser says -- "This body kit can be used with Hobbytown U28B w/flywheel power chassis, #77408F, or with a modified Athearn F unit mechanism and U28B trucks."  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> John Hagen wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Quick but...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > The last H10-44 was shipped in 04/50 to the Indianapolis Union
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Terminal. The first H12-44, with extended roof was shipped to the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Milwaukee (#1826 and #1827) in 05/50. The first H12-44's sans
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > extended cab roof was a six unit order for the SP, five of which were
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > shipped in 09/52 and the sixth in 10/52. If my counting is correct
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > there were something like 93 extended roof H12-44's built out of a
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > total of 306 U.S. produced H12-44's (30 more were built in Canada).
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Total production of the H10-44 was only 132, all U.S., meaning that
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > the H12-44 account for approximately 40% of all the extended cab
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > switchers built by F.M.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     What's the model number for the Trainmaster? H16-something I think? 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Would have liked to buy one or two of the Atlas models they had out in 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Black Widow paint several years ago but wasn't in the budget.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Can you cry under water?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9662
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Glenn476 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   > H-24-66   Atlas loco is nice, but does not have the proper train indicators 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ("Bugboards") for the SP Units.  Since the SP's TM's  were in the San 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Francisco-San Jose Commute Pool, the FM switchers were assigned to the Bay 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Area as well--they got down to Monterey and Salinas--  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm not a slave to exact prototype detail. "Close enough" is fine 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
for me. For my proposed freelance layout I have locos from ATSF, UP, SP, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
GN, Frisco, CB&Q, and some others. There's no real life location where 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
these might all be seen. I'm also a fan of science fiction, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
alternate universes and alternate histories are common themes in sci-fi, 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
so there's where my layout will be set.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
We are born naked, wet and hungry, and get slapped on our butt.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Then things get worse.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9663
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   > Rick,  Looks like you're thinking of the FM H-16-24 "Baby"
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Trainmaster, with 4-wheel trucks.  Then there's the standard
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Trainmaster -- H-24-66, with 6-wheel trucks (as Don brought out).  A
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> good number of Roads used the H-16-24; you can get this from Bowser
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> either as just a Cary shell - Bowser #113051 (using your drive) or as
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> a complete Bowser powered kit - Bowser #113001.  If using just the
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> cast body, Bowser says -- "This body kit can be used with Hobbytown
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> U28B w/flywheel power chassis, #77408F, or with a modified Athearn F
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> unit mechanism and U28B trucks."  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      No, it was the big one that interested me, the one that Atlas 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
modeled. My knowledge of the model numbers was way off.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Why are they called apartments when they are all stuck together?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9664
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  RAY F W..
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         Just a little 
side note to your mention of the HO scale Baby Trainmaster sold by 
Bowser. The interesting thing was that this HO scale item was 
originally produced in Pottsville PA  (15 miles from me under the 
Pennsylvania Scale Models name). They then moved to Ashland NJ under a new owner 
and the finally on to Bowser. The first Baby Trainmaster shells were cast in 
Pottsville and had that cities name in the top underneath of the body in raised 
letters. They produced their own frames and they (PSM) designed their own motor 
and had it made for them to those specifications. This Pennsylvania Scale Models 
also produced different types of cast trollies that Bowser is / was selling 
too.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                         I 
gathered information about PSM and wrote a story in the HOSC&H-SIG 
newsletter "The Reporting Mark" because the company had been so 
close.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 1:36 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Barr-Nixon 
  FM?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Rick, Looks like you're thinking of the FM H-16-24 "Baby" Trainmaster, with 
  4-wheel trucks. Then there's the standard Trainmaster -- H-24-66, with 6-wheel 
  trucks (as Don brought out). A good number of Roads used the H-16-24; you can 
  get this from Bowser either as just a Cary shell - Bowser #113051 (using your 
  drive) or as a complete Bowser powered kit - Bowser #113001. If using just the 
  cast body, Bowser says -- "This body kit can be used with Hobbytown U28B 
  w/flywheel power chassis, #77408F, or with a modified Athearn F unit mechanism 
  and U28B trucks." Ray F.W.

                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Rick Jones <r.t.jones@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                  > John Hagen 
  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Quick but...
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > The last H10-44 
  was shipped in 04/50 to the Indianapolis Union
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Terminal. The 
  first H12-44, with extended roof was shipped to the
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Milwaukee 
  (#1826 and #1827) in 05/50. The first H12-44's sans
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > extended cab 
  roof was a six unit order for the SP, five of which were
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > shipped 
  in 09/52 and the sixth in 10/52. If my counting is correct
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > there 
  were something like 93 extended roof H12-44's built out of a
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  total of 306 U.S. produced H12-44's (30 more were built in Canada).
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > Total production of the H10-44 was only 132, all U.S., meaning 
  that
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the H12-44 account for approximately 40% of all the extended 
  cab
                                                                                                                                                                                  > > switchers built by F.M.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > What's the model 
  number for the Trainmaster? H16-something I think? 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Would have liked 
  to buy one or two of the Atlas models they had out in 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Black Widow 
  paint several years ago but wasn't in the budget.
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                  > Can you cry under 
  water?
                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9665
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: PSM  "Baby Trainmaster"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                     Pictures of the Pennsylvania 
Scale Models Fairbanks Morse "Baby Trainmaster" that ended up in Bowser hands. 
This item was first produced in Pottsville PA and later in Ashland NJ. The 
original body was cast in Pottsville as was the frame. You can hopefully see 
Pennsylvania Scale Models  Pottsville Pa cast in the inside of the 
roof. The drive was their own design as was the motor but not made in 
Pottsville Pa. A number of ladies working in the Pottsville location 
assembled all parts there.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9666
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 4/12/2009 1:36:52 PM EDT, Ray FW wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  FM H-16-24 "Baby" Trainmaster
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  That should be H-16-44, the last part meaning 4 axles, 4 traction motors.  This model actually preceeded the Train Master (Yes, it's two words.) and looked more like the H-10s and H-12s, except with a short hood; it was only later that it received the Train Master-like body.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  And don't forget the "Junior" Trainmaster," the H-16-66.  Although it's not exactly "vintage," I've been thinking about chopping four feet out of an older Athearn Train Master to make one of these.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 or less.                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9667
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: <Alpvalsys@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 4:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> In a message dated 4/12/2009 1:36:52 PM EDT, Ray FW wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> FM H-16-24 "Baby" Trainmaster
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> That should be H-16-44, the last part meaning 4 axles, 4 traction motors.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> This model actually preceeded the Train Master (Yes, it's two words.) and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> looked
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> more like the H-10s and H-12s, except with a short hood; it was only later
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> that it received the Train Master-like body.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> And don't forget the "Junior" Trainmaster," the H-16-66.  Although it's 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> not
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> exactly "vintage," I've been thinking about chopping four feet out of an 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> older
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Athearn Train Master to make one of these.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
When Athearn's unit first came out there was an article in Model Railroader 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
on how to do just that.  If you like I can track it down for you.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9668
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                     Ralph,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       While you might be right 
as far as the REAL engine being Train Master (two word) the HO engine sold by 
Bowser was listed as FM Baby Trainmaster (one word) H-16-44. Ray F. 
W. was citing the Bowser HO engine and in that respect he is right. 
Remember this is basically a vintage HO site
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 5:19 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Barr-Nixon 
  FM?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 4/12/2009 1:36:52 PM EDT, Ray FW wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  FM 
    H-16-24 "Baby" Trainmaster
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------ ------
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  That should be H-16-44, the last part meaning 4 axles, 4 traction 
  motors.  This model actually preceeded the Train Master (Yes, it's two 
  words.) and looked more like the H-10s and H-12s, except with a short hood; it 
  was only later that it received the Train Master-like body.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  And don't forget the "Junior" Trainmaster, " the H-16-66.  
  Although it's not exactly "vintage," I've been thinking about chopping four 
  feet out of an older Athearn Train Master to make one of these.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner 
  for $10 or less.                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9669
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  It's a vintage HO site; 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  a diecast, embossed, open-framed, wood & paper sided, brass-railed Vintage HO site! 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 6:45:11 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Barr-Nixon FM?

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                     Ralph,
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                       While you might be right as far as the REAL engine being Train Master (two word) the HO engine sold by Bowser was listed as FM Baby Trainmaster (one word) H-16-44. Ray F. W. was citing the Bowser HO engine and in that respect he is right. Remember this is basically a vintage HO site
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 5:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 4/12/2009 1:36:52 PM EDT, Ray FW wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  FM H-16-24 "Baby" Trainmaster
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------ ------
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  That should be H-16-44, the last part meaning 4 axles, 4 traction motors.  This model actually preceeded the Train Master (Yes, it's two words.) and looked more like the H-10s and H-12s, except with a short hood; it was only later that it received the Train Master-like body.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  And don't forget the "Junior" Trainmaster, " the H-16-66.  Although it's not exactly "vintage," I've been thinking about chopping four feet out of an older Athearn Train Master to make one of these.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less.                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9670
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PSM  "Baby Trainmaster" [5 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>    Pictures of the Pennsylvania Scale Models Fairbanks Morse "Baby 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Trainmaster" that ended up in Bowser hands. This item was first produced 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> in Pottsville PA and later in Ashland NJ. The original body was cast in 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Pottsville as was the frame. You can hopefully see Pennsylvania Scale 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Models  Pottsville Pa cast in the inside of the roof. The drive was 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> their own design as was the motor but not made in Pottsville Pa. A 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> number of ladies working in the Pottsville location assembled all parts 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> there.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Yahoo has been giving me server error messages since last night 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
trying to view any of the attachments that have been posted.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Why do doctors leave the room while you change?  They're going
                                                                                                                                                                                  
to see you naked anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9671
						From: Ron Plyler
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Bowser steam loco kits.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Talking with Bowser about the demise of their steam loco kits.  They are done, the factory closed and when the parts are done, there will be no replacements.  They find that most new modelers want RTR and can't be bothered with building and tweaking a kit.  All the turntables kits are also a thing to the past.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9672
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph,  Thanks for catching that (good catch).  I thought that's what I wrote (H-16-44), as that's exactly what I meant to write.  I know what those digets represent (axles and traction motors), but I guess I was just happening to still be thinking about the H-24-66 that Don brought up, when I was typing that.  A "Junior" Trainmaster would look dynamite on the layout.  I know I'd never attempt to take a section out of a shell; I'm not that good on eliminating the slice marks (reminds me of Bowser's first Big Boy offerings where you could see where two Challenger boilers were cut and joined).  
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  
Incidentally, while it may not be correct, I see "train master -- trainmaster" spelled both ways all the time, and/or, interchangeably.  Red Ball (Howell Day) referred to his F-M's (of that configuration) as "Trainmasters," as did Bowser (Lew English), just to name a couple off the top of my head.  Those units just seem to be universally known as "Trainmasters," even though I've seen it spelled as "Train Masters" too.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: <Alpvalsys@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 4:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > In a message dated 4/12/2009 1:36:52 PM EDT, Ray FW wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > FM H-16-24 "Baby" Trainmaster
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > ------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > That should be H-16-44, the last part meaning 4 axles, 4 traction motors.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > This model actually preceeded the Train Master (Yes, it's two words.) and 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > looked
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > more like the H-10s and H-12s, except with a short hood; it was only later
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > that it received the Train Master-like body.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > And don't forget the "Junior" Trainmaster," the H-16-66.  Although it's 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > not
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > exactly "vintage," I've been thinking about chopping four feet out of an 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > older
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Athearn Train Master to make one of these.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> When Athearn's unit first came out there was an article in Model Railroader 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> on how to do just that.  If you like I can track it down for you.
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9673
						From: Lennard Stewart
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PSM  "Baby Trainmaster" and Maintenance
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                    


  
  

 
Lennard Stewart wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
       Hi Rick and Everyone Else
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yahoo has been doing a lot of changes the last couple
                                                                                                                                                                                    
of weeks and they have been having problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
So tomorrow they are going to shut it down for some heavy 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
maintenance. Here is what is on the moderators blog
                                                                                                                                                                                    
It is hard for them to do any maintenance when we are using them. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    . 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yahoogroups will be taken down for short periods on Monday the 13th for
maintenance.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Here is the info posted to the Moderators forum:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
“ On Monday, April 13th, 2009 Yahoo! Groups will undergo scheduled
                                                                                                                                                                                    
maintenance. During this time your group will be unavailable for 30-60
                                                                                                                                                                                    
minutes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The outage is currently scheduled to begin at 1 pm PT, 8 pm GMT. At this
                                                                                                                                                                                    
time, ¼ of all Yahoo! Groups will become unavailable while the team
services
                                                                                                                                                                                    
these groups. Once maintenance is complete on that ¼ of Groups, they
will be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
made available again, and the next ¼ will become unavailable until all
of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the groups have been serviced.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
In total the maintenance period should last around 5 hours, with the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
maintenance concluding around 6 pm PT, midnight GMT.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
While your group is being serviced, all features of your group,
including
                                                                                                                                                                                    
messages, photos, attachments, etc. will be completely unavailable.
However,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
once your outage time concludes, your group and all of its features
should
                                                                                                                                                                                    
return and any messages that were posted to the group via email during
this
                                                                                                                                                                                    
downtime will be sent out. Please note that your group’s outage should
only
                                                                                                                                                                                    
last around an hour. “
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Lennard Stewart
Owner of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1-87scalevehiclesales/
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Rick Jones wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> [Attachment( s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included
below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Pictures of the Pennsylvania Scale Models Fairbanks Morse "Baby 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Trainmaster" that ended up in Bowser hands. This item was first
produced 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in Pottsville PA and later in Ashland NJ. The original body was
cast in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Pottsville as was the frame. You can hopefully see Pennsylvania
Scale 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Models Pottsville Pa cast in the inside of the roof. The drive was
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> their own design as was the motor but not made in Pottsville Pa. A
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> number of ladies working in the Pottsville location assembled all
parts 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> there.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yahoo has been giving me server error messages since last night 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
trying to view any of the attachments that have been posted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9674
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Actually--while the SP's TM's were primarily passenger locos, they did often 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
see freight service on weekends--main thing was that they had to be back in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
San Jose Sunday night to be ready for service Monday morning.  They had 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
fantastic acceleration--since they were in start-and-stop operation--Typical 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Commute train was 2 TM's (always back-to-back to save switching) with eight 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Gallery" bi-level cars and four of the older "Harriman" heavyweights.  One 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
of my favorite diesels.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 10:41 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Barr-Nixon FM? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9675
						From: Fred Stevens K2FRD
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Is there ANY manufacturer left who produces steam locomotive kits?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 11:28 PM +0000 12/4/09, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >Bowser steam loco kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    Posted by: "Ron Plyler" ron_tallyho@... ron_tallyho
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    Date: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:20 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Talking with Bowser about the demise of their steam loco kits.  They are done, the factory closed and when the parts are done, there will be no replacements.  They find that most new modelers want RTR and can't be bothered with building and tweaking a kit.  All the turntables kits are also a thing to the past. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9676
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Fred,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I certainly can't think of any, however, if someone with some money was so inclined, I'm sure Bowser would negotiate...........:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 8:16:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] RE: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Is there ANY manufacturer left who produces steam locomotive kits?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Fred Stevens

                                                                                                                                                                                    At 11:28 PM +0000 12/4/09, vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                     >Bowser steam loco kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Posted by: "Ron Plyler" ron_tallyho@ yahoo.com ron_tallyho
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Date: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:20 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >Talking with Bowser about the demise of their steam loco kits. They are done, the factory closed and when the parts are done, there will be no replacements. They find that most new modelers want RTR and can't be bothered with building and tweaking a kit. All the turntables kits are also a thing to the past.
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9677
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I believe that Roundhouse or MDC still
does.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Fred Stevens K2FRD
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 8:16
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] RE:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    Is there
ANY manufacturer left who produces steam locomotive kits?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9678
						From: jerrygart5
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I believe that Roundhouse or MDC still does.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Since Athearn/Horizon bought them out several years ago, I believe they only sell RTR.  So, I am not aware of a kit steamer on the market today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jerry Garteiser
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9679
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    MDC/Roundhouse is now owned by Horizon, they are producing some ready to run, but no kits..........:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 9:11:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: RE: [vintageHO] RE: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I believe that Roundhouse or MDC still does.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Fred Stevens K2FRD
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 8:16 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] RE: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Is there ANY manufacturer left who produces steam locomotive kits?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Fred Stevens



                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9680
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sorry Chuck,

                                                                                                                                                                                    Horizon bought MDC and they only make RTR in China now..........

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 12, 2009, at 8:11 PM, Chuck Higdon wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                    I believe that Roundhouse or MDC still does.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9681
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Guys, thanks for the update.  Even
their freight cars are RTR.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 9:25
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] RE:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry
Chuck,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Horizon bought MDC and they only make RTR in
 China now.. ........
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Milwaukee
 Wi , USA
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 12, 2009, at 8:11 PM, Chuck Higdon wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I believe that Roundhouse or MDC still
does.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9682
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Barr-Nixon FM?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/12/2009 7:28:44 PM EDT, Ray F.W. wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    I see "train master -- trainmaster" spelled both ways all the time
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    When I first went to work on the railroad, the boss was the trainmaster.  What the folks in Beloit built was the Train Master.  It's very common to see the latter name confused with with the former.  ;-)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 or less.                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9683
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Not in the USA.......
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
We might have to cross our fingers and hope for the promised $1,000  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
3d printers to arrive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Somehow we'll still get drivers...... whether from G.B. or cottage  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
operations making tires for 3d printed wheels, cnc-milled cores, or  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
various white metal casting cores.......
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
While not everyone will want to buy a $2,500 cnc-mill set-up. Enough  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
people will do it and make the parts available. Even a fellow with a  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
$600 lathe and contracted spin-cast steamer driver centers can true- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
up the castings and make the tires for reasonably priced steamer  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
As food for thought....... just last night I was looking at a free  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
download file for a detailed 2-8-2 steamer with complete tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
That same file can be broken down in a very modestly priced 3d cad  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
program, parts isolated, and easily converted to machinable file  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
formats or 3d printed. There are what seems like several thousands of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
such RR motive power units and all sorts of cars and other RR  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
equipment out there as detailed 3d computer files. I know of online  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
libraries that each have a few thousand.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
So be hopeful. Mantua, Roundhouse, and Bowser locomotive kits may be  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
gone........ but a few hours with a home computer and follow up with  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a 3d printer company or decently equipped home shop or school can  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
make the needed parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
With computer files, you can always buy the right ones,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
inexpensively. The rest can be made from existing scale drawings that  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
have circulated for the last 200 years of RR'ing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Scan, convert, edit, bring into the real world........... The Gamers  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
do this big-time and have for a long time. We modelers can use the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
same tools.........
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
examples......
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.geocities.com/paulthepuzzles/aardvarks.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.amabilis.com/msts.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.3d-canvas.com/3DCanvasDocumentation/tutorialcrosssection3.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     On Apr 12, 2009, at 7:16 PM, Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Is there ANY manufacturer left who produces steam locomotive kits?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> At 11:28 PM +0000 12/4/09, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Bowser steam loco kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>    Posted by: "Ron Plyler" ron_tallyho@... ron_tallyho
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>    Date: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:20 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Talking with Bowser about the demise of their steam loco kits.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> They are done, the factory closed and when the parts are done,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> there will be no replacements.  They find that most new modelers  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> want RTR and can't be bothered with building and tweaking a kit.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> All the turntables kits are also a thing to the past.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9684
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/12/2009 9:14:26 PM EDT, Chuck Higdon wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    I believe that Roundhouse or MDC still does.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    You might find an MDC/Roundhouse locomotive kit on some hobby dealer's shelves, but everything that Horizon Hobbies, the company that bought MDC a few years ago, only sells RTR (ready-to-run).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 or less.                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9685
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 


 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Given the problems with running quality in MDC in 
recent years, I think I'd rather start with an RTR loco and have it 
right!   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 6:25 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] RE: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry 
  Chuck,
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Horizon bought MDC and they only make RTR 
  in China now..........
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9686
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Closing of Bowser Steam, Docksider, Cary Diesel lines
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Fred,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I thought a bit about that too, an end of an era.  A bit sad that Bowser's newest steam locomotive kits, all new from the rail up, the A-5 0-4-0 came in 1992, the B-6 in 1995, did never get the publicity they should have either, with the new can-type motors and more sophisticated drive mechanisms.  The B-6 0-6-0 even came with all the detail castings in the kit, and pre-drilled, too.  Others in Bowser's steam line were overhauled with many upgraded parts too, like the T-1 boiler. Though it is not entirely diecast, this includes the end of the once much loved, longest lived ex-Varney Docksider as well (I just checked its page), as it is now included in Bowsers regular locomotive section. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
But Bowser is also facing a smaller group of steam-era modeler-builders, and Pennsy an even smaller sub-group yet, no matter how loyal.  And many in the model railroading hobby today can't simply make the time or enjoy building a kit.  Times do change, so Bowser may have made a good business decison for a full-time outfit, if unpopular with some of us.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
My opinion, but the division might have been be spun off as a whole and be profitible if run by several as a second or retirement business, as Howard Mosely did so professionally with hobbytown of Boston for quite a few years.  It is my understanding the custom builder Eddystone might be taking only a small part of the Bowser Line, which does not give me the warm fuzzy feelings as it does others, but maybe that's just me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The Cary metal diesel line is affected as well, so lovers of heavy metal should act now to secure those diesel castings you always thought about getting.  With the shutting down of the great hobbytown of Boston 18 months ago, this almost brings the end to all the remaining heavy metal diesel kits, except for Tiger Valley, which concentrates mostly on second generation Alcos and pretty much produces kits to order as I understand it.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm sure that many outside our group consider all the metal Bowser and Cary lines as vintage models already, just as the diecast Mantuas and MDC - Roundhouse models gone before them.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Looking at Bush's Yardbird website, though, one could almost put together a new steam locomotive kit from all the individual parts, boilers and frames he sells!  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Years ago the defunct Arbour line was purchased by Bowser, but they never produced any of those somewhat difficult to build kits. In the early 1980's, Lee Town produced two excellent limited production complete white metal and brass steam engine kits, plus conversion kits to be used with Mantua kits; until recently, parts were available from Bethlehm Car Works, but now available from D. Hicks Trains in Allentown, PA. DHICKSTRAINS@...  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
So I guess that's it, did I miss any others...?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jay
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Is there ANY manufacturer left who produces steam locomotive kits?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> At 11:28 PM +0000 12/4/09, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Bowser steam loco kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >    Posted by: "Ron Plyler" ron_tallyho@... ron_tallyho
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >    Date: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:20 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Talking with Bowser about the demise of their steam loco kits.  They are done, the factory closed and when the parts are done, there will be no replacements.  They find that most new modelers want RTR and can't be bothered with building and tweaking a kit.  All the turntables kits are also a thing to the past.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9687
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Perhaps you've not noticed all the posts in the groups asking how to make their new RTR's actually run ???

                                                                                                                                                                                    It's a lot like buying a car. You need to know which models don't operate well, even which runs of the models actually do work. You can't go by the maker as much as need to know which models to avoid.

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 12, 2009, at 9:37 PM, Glenn476 wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                    Given the problems with running quality in MDC in recent years, I think I'd rather start with an RTR loco and have it right!   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry Chuck,

                                                                                                                                                                                    Horizon bought MDC and they only make RTR in China now..........
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9688
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have one of those newer MDC kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
It's an 0-6-0 with slopeback tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Can motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Plastic driver centers on one side (not too big an issue), but plastic push-in crankpins caused me to just put it away for a while.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I was able to locate some Mantua drivers, swap the drive gear, and use brass crank bolts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Too much work to make it functional and reliable.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
And, I ain't happy about the plastic one-piece tender trucks with the you-bend-to-fit wipers for the middle of the axle.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
You would think that having a can motor and all the modern short-cuts, they would have put lights in it, but at least that part is still "vintage", with jewels front and back.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
A nice throwback is the boiler not drilled or even dimpled for the handrail stanchions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To somebody who knows kits and how to build them, I wouldn't recommend it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Oh, and Horizon doesn't. I had one part (smokebox front) missing in the kit (sealed box, no less), and Horizon was unable or unwilling to provide any parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > I believe that Roundhouse or MDC still does.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You might find an MDC/Roundhouse locomotive kit on some hobby dealer's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> shelves, but everything that Horizon Hobbies, the company that bought MDC a few 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> years ago, only sells RTR (ready-to-run).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store?  Make dinner for $10 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> or less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9689
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 4/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Fred (and any others who might be interested)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
About 10 years ago I was involved with MRIA and had the chance to discuss the overall decline in kit building in the hobby with 12 different manufacturers. The only area where kit building was growing was for architectural subjects (stations, stores, houses, etc) and everything else -- locos, cars, etc. -- were on the decline. With that many unbuilt kits, why continue to produce them? Most modelers don't even own the simple tools needed to assemble a Bowser kit so if they buy one it will never get built.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The assessment by some loco kit manufacturers at the time was that well over 60% of all the kits they had produced (and this was for all the loco kit manufacturers present) were never built or even started. I think eBay auctions bear this out -- there are literally hundreds of locomotive kits available over a month of auctions, most of them never started. The market for new kits was probably killed by eBay as much as anything. I have bought over 60 loco kits off eBay in the past 10 years (I confess to being a kit collector) and there are still plenty more.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Is there ANY manufacturer left who produces steam locomotive kits?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9690
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Athearn 4-6-2 early Pacifics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                            I had 
promised to send pictures from my collection of the 3 versions of the early 
Athearn Pacifics that were produced and sold. I will put that off till tomorrow. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          First reason is 
that Yahoo will be shutting the site down today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          The main reason 
is that I expect a lot of Emails about my narrative concerning the first 
run Athearn Pacific, that had major problems and never hit the market, as to 
just what the type of drive was in it.. Since I am going against what is written 
in Greenberg's Guide to Athearn trains I want a lot of free time to discuss 
this. It will get very interesting as I present my side.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9691
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 4/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    There may not be new locomotive kits, but there are 
plenty of old kits on hobbyists shelves instead of hobby shop 
shelves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Actually, those interested in such kits are 
probably declining in number as the years go by.  Yet the number of unbuilt 
kits probably isn't changing much except in terms of moving from one person's 
shelf to another.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I had actually built a Mantua mikado as a young 
teenager and it is now long gone.  I wanted another unbuilt kit.  No 
problem.  Ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    From the description of the later MDC kit with 
plastic driver centers and crankpins, I'd rather have a "vintage" kit from the 
prior millenium anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 2:19 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Fred (and any others who might be interested)

                                                                                                                                                                                    About 10 years ago I 
  was involved with MRIA and had the chance to discuss the overall decline in 
  kit building in the hobby with 12 different manufacturers. The only area where 
  kit building was growing was for architectural subjects (stations, stores, 
  houses, etc) and everything else -- locos, cars, etc. -- were on the decline. 
  With that many unbuilt kits, why continue to produce them? Most modelers don't 
  even own the simple tools needed to assemble a Bowser kit so if they buy one 
  it will never get built.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The assessment by some loco kit manufacturers 
  at the time was that well over 60% of all the kits they had produced (and this 
  was for all the loco kit manufacturers present) were never built or even 
  started. I think eBay auctions bear this out -- there are literally hundreds 
  of locomotive kits available over a month of auctions, most of them never 
  started. The market for new kits was probably killed by eBay as much as 
  anything. I have bought over 60 loco kits off eBay in the past 10 years (I 
  confess to being a kit collector) and there are still plenty 
  more.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Matt

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Is there ANY 
  manufacturer left who produces steam locomotive kits?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Fred 
  Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9692
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-2 early Pacifics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H, That sounds interesting.  I don't have any complete examples, so I will pull out my plastic bag of Athearn Pacific parts and try to follow along.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         I had promised to send pictures from my collection of the 3 versions of the early Athearn Pacifics that were produced and sold. I will put that off till tomorrow. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       First reason is that Yahoo will be shutting the site down today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       The main reason is that I expect a lot of Emails about my narrative concerning the first run Athearn Pacific, that had major problems and never hit the market, as to just what the type of drive was in it.. Since I am going against what is written in Greenberg's Guide to Athearn trains I want a lot of free time to discuss this. It will get very interesting as I present my side.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9693
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-2 early Pacifics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                               I have one 
of each type in my collection. Again they are the three versions that were sold 
to the public. (Are there others ? Nothing has come up) .When I first 
got these I did not have the Greenberg / Athearn book which describes them also. 
I, along with some other vintage train collectors and none involved with the 
Greenberg book., went over each and came up with the changes so I will not be 
copying from the Greenberg book which is basically the same. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I will take pictures to 
show each engine and tender from many angles to show the differences in the 
three (again these are the three production models sold to the public). I will 
do one version every day to try not to have to many facts out there that might 
get mixed up.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        This will take a little extra 
time to accomplish.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 10:22 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 4-6-2 
  early Pacifics
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H, That sounds interesting. I don't have any complete examples, so I 
  will pull out my plastic bag of Athearn Pacific parts and try to follow along. 
  W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I had promised 
  to send pictures from my collection of the 3 versions of the early Athearn 
  Pacifics that were produced and sold. I will put that off till tomorrow. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > First reason is that Yahoo will be shutting the site down 
  today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The main reason is that I expect a lot of Emails about 
  my narrative concerning the first run Athearn Pacific, that had major problems 
  and never hit the market, as to just what the type of drive was in it.. Since 
  I am going against what is written in Greenberg's Guide to Athearn trains I 
  want a lot of free time to discuss this. It will get very interesting as I 
  present my side.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9694
						From: mittner@webtv.net
						Date: 4/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Westwood CP Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    List,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
     I have available for purchase an older wood/plastic craftsman
                                                                                                                                                                                    
kit-built car that was produced by Westwood, circa 1960's. Photo below.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
This is the double cupola Canadian Pacific car. For the life of me I can
                                                                                                                                                                                    
not recall the actual name of the car type. Not sure if it was called a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Caboose, Coach, a Waycar or ? Anyway, it has been partially constructed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and the work is decent enough for someone to take the time to finish. No
                                                                                                                                                                                    
other parts are present. What you see is what it is. The floor is
                                                                                                                                                                                    
removable for access to the inside. I purchased this as you see it years
                                                                                                                                                                                    
ago and nothing more was done to it.  Looks like it will need railings,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
vents, etc. All suitable parts can be easily found.  One roof edge on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the end would need reglued. A seldom seen car that needs to be finished
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and appreciated. $25.00 plus shipping. Paypal preferred or MO's is fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks, Gary
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://prrmodels.com/413c.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Come visit my PRR Pages:  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/PRR-pages.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9695
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Gary, That kit was for a pre-cursor to the modern day dome cars on the Canadian Pacific in 1902; the kit was reviewed and a photograph of the built model appears in the July, 1971 issue of Model Railroader, pages 26 & 27, which says the kit was limited production, only 1902 produced commemorating the year the prototype was built. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, mittner@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> List,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      I have available for purchase an older wood/plastic craftsman
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> kit-built car that was produced by Westwood, circa 1960's. Photo below.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> This is the double cupola Canadian Pacific car. For the life of me I can
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> not recall the actual name of the car type. Not sure if it was called a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Caboose, Coach, a Waycar or ? Anyway, it has been partially constructed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and the work is decent enough for someone to take the time to finish. No
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> other parts are present. What you see is what it is. The floor is
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> removable for access to the inside. I purchased this as you see it years
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ago and nothing more was done to it.  Looks like it will need railings,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> vents, etc. All suitable parts can be easily found.  One roof edge on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the end would need reglued. A seldom seen car that needs to be finished
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and appreciated. $25.00 plus shipping. Paypal preferred or MO's is fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks, Gary
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://prrmodels.com/413c.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Come visit my PRR Pages:  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/PRR-pages.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9696
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Aluminum E unit wood nose
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don D,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             I finally got the 
answer I was waiting for on what Hobbies Inc engine bodies were made 
of.  I ask to refresh my memory as it pertained to a sentence I wrote 
about Hobbies Inc / aluminum sheet metal with wood. I received two 
replies both from people in California.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             I 
was right that the bodies were one piece castings. They had no wood involved. 
One friend has the PA & PB Hobbies Inc. bodies and they are cast aluminum 
and shine up very well when polished. Neither has the E-6 that was produced but 
do have adds for it. Again one piece cast body only with no wood 
involved.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            This 
information backs up what I thought but couldn't find my material on them. I 
can't understand why I would write a sentence saying Hobbies Inc (since I 
already knew about them) having sheet aluminum with wood (not specifically the 
nose).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            I have 
gone back over previous E mails that would have led up to this specific Email. 
The talk was centered on an odd looking E unit that many people identified what 
it was copied from. I bought the engine and still couldn't ID the HO maker. Was 
it a manufactured item or someone's project ?  Never did get that 
settled.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            This is 
background for the Email that I did write where I was listing everything that 
this item was not. It was near the end where I mentioned Hobbies Inc / Wood and 
Aluminum
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            I can 
only guess that I started to write about Hobbies Inc and didn't finish the 
sentence while ending another thought about wood / aluminum E unit. There 
are many times my brain out paces my one finger typing and I think this must 
have been the case. I tied two different thoughts together and missed a lot in 
the middle or I deleted part of the message after running spell check and 
revising mistakes.The explanation doesn't help your request.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             I 
can't ID the pictures you sent but have passed them on to some inner 
circle friends. No answer yet but a big weekend just went by.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            
.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9697
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Matt,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The assessment by some loco kit manufacturers at the time was that well over 60% of all the kits they had produced (and this was for all the loco kit manufacturers present) were never built or even started. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I was told the same from a kit car ( = automobile, full size) builder . 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
What do you want?  Steam loco? Dune Buggy? GT-40? its all out there.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9698
						From: mittner@webtv.net
						Date: 4/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    List,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
     The Westwood CP Dome Car has been spoken for. Thanks all for ID'ing
                                                                                                                                                                                    
it too, Gary
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Come visit my PRR Pages:  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/PRR-pages.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9699
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Here is the original ad from 1968
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9700
						From: Charlie
						Date: 4/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Closing of Bowser Steam, Docksider, Cary Diesel lines
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Tiger Valley
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Where can I find a list of the bodies they 
produce?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Charlie
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 2:54 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Closing of 
  Bowser Steam, Docksider, Cary Diesel lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Fred,

                                                                                                                                                                                    I thought a bit about that too, an end of an era. A bit sad 
  that Bowser's newest steam locomotive kits, all new from the rail up, the A-5 
  0-4-0 came in 1992, the B-6 in 1995, did never get the publicity they should 
  have either, with the new can-type motors and more sophisticated drive 
  mechanisms. The B-6 0-6-0 even came with all the detail castings in the kit, 
  and pre-drilled, too. Others in Bowser's steam line were overhauled with many 
  upgraded parts too, like the T-1 boiler. Though it is not entirely diecast, 
  this includes the end of the once much loved, longest lived ex-Varney 
  Docksider as well (I just checked its page), as it is now included in Bowsers 
  regular locomotive section. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    But Bowser is also facing a smaller group 
  of steam-era modeler-builders, and Pennsy an even smaller sub-group yet, no 
  matter how loyal. And many in the model railroading hobby today can't simply 
  make the time or enjoy building a kit. Times do change, so Bowser may have 
  made a good business decison for a full-time outfit, if unpopular with some of 
  us.

                                                                                                                                                                                    My opinion, but the division might have been be spun off as a whole 
  and be profitible if run by several as a second or retirement business, as 
  Howard Mosely did so professionally with hobbytown of Boston for quite a few 
  years. It is my understanding the custom builder Eddystone might be taking 
  only a small part of the Bowser Line, which does not give me the warm fuzzy 
  feelings as it does others, but maybe that's just me.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The Cary metal 
  diesel line is affected as well, so lovers of heavy metal should act now to 
  secure those diesel castings you always thought about getting. With the 
  shutting down of the great hobbytown of Boston 18 months ago, this almost 
  brings the end to all the remaining heavy metal diesel kits, except for Tiger 
  Valley, which concentrates mostly on second generation Alcos and pretty much 
  produces kits to order as I understand it. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm sure that many outside 
  our group consider all the metal Bowser and Cary lines as vintage models 
  already, just as the diecast Mantuas and MDC - Roundhouse models gone before 
  them. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Looking at Bush's Yardbird website, though, one could almost put 
  together a new steam locomotive kit from all the individual parts, boilers and 
  frames he sells! 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Years ago the defunct Arbour line was purchased by 
  Bowser, but they never produced any of those somewhat difficult to build kits. 
  In the early 1980's, Lee Town produced two excellent limited production 
  complete white metal and brass steam engine kits, plus conversion kits to be 
  used with Mantua kits; until recently, parts were available from Bethlehm Car 
  Works, but now available from D. Hicks Trains in Allentown, PA. DHICKSTRAINS@ msn.com 

                                                                                                                                                                                    So 
  I guess that's it, did I miss any others...?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jay

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Is there ANY 
  manufacturer left who produces steam locomotive kits?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Fred 
  Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > At 11:28 PM +0000 12/4/09, vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Bowser steam loco kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Posted by: "Ron 
  Plyler" ron_tallyho@ ... ron_tallyho
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Date: Sun Apr 12, 2009 
  4:20 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Talking with Bowser about the demise 
  of their steam loco kits. They are done, the factory closed and when the parts 
  are done, there will be no replacements. They find that most new modelers want 
  RTR and can't be bothered with building and tweaking a kit. All the turntables 
  kits are also a thing to the past.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9701
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Tiger Valley 1st & 2nd Gen. White Metal Diesel Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Charlie,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I was looking for them, too, about three weeks ago and could not find the website I remebered from several years ago.  By using a website tool called "Wayback Machine" I was able to find his information still floating around in the internet, even though his website had been closed. His locomotives are unique in HO as they use a chain drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I also googled his name Guileford Mack, and found that an upstate NY newspaper just did a story about him the very Sunday before and even had a video of his metal casting operations.  It is a must see!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    So here is the address for the video, (a comercial comes on first):  
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    And here is his old 2004 website, with models listed and photos on the second page.  It also has his email address:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://web.archive.org/web/20070328065140/www.lynnet.com/~tigervalley/products.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charlie" <railroads@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Tiger Valley
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Where can I find a list of the bodies they produce?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Charlie
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 2:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Closing of Bowser Steam, Docksider, Cary Diesel lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Fred,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I thought a bit about that too, an end of an era. A bit sad that Bowser's newest steam locomotive kits, all new from the rail up, the A-5 0-4-0 came in 1992, the B-6 in 1995, did never get the publicity they should have either, with the new can-type motors and more sophisticated drive mechanisms. The B-6 0-6-0 even came with all the detail castings in the kit, and pre-drilled, too. Others in Bowser's steam line were overhauled with many upgraded parts too, like the T-1 boiler. Though it is not entirely diecast, this includes the end of the once much loved, longest lived ex-Varney Docksider as well (I just checked its page), as it is now included in Bowsers regular locomotive section. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > But Bowser is also facing a smaller group of steam-era modeler-builders, and Pennsy an even smaller sub-group yet, no matter how loyal. And many in the model railroading hobby today can't simply make the time or enjoy building a kit. Times do change, so Bowser may have made a good business decison for a full-time outfit, if unpopular with some of us.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > My opinion, but the division might have been be spun off as a whole and be profitible if run by several as a second or retirement business, as Howard Mosely did so professionally with hobbytown of Boston for quite a few years. It is my understanding the custom builder Eddystone might be taking only a small part of the Bowser Line, which does not give me the warm fuzzy feelings as it does others, but maybe that's just me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The Cary metal diesel line is affected as well, so lovers of heavy metal should act now to secure those diesel castings you always thought about getting. With the shutting down of the great hobbytown of Boston 18 months ago, this almost brings the end to all the remaining heavy metal diesel kits, except for Tiger Valley, which concentrates mostly on second generation Alcos and pretty much produces kits to order as I understand it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'm sure that many outside our group consider all the metal Bowser and Cary lines as vintage models already, just as the diecast Mantuas and MDC - Roundhouse models gone before them. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Looking at Bush's Yardbird website, though, one could almost put together a new steam locomotive kit from all the individual parts, boilers and frames he sells! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Years ago the defunct Arbour line was purchased by Bowser, but they never produced any of those somewhat difficult to build kits. In the early 1980's, Lee Town produced two excellent limited production complete white metal and brass steam engine kits, plus conversion kits to be used with Mantua kits; until recently, parts were available from Bethlehm Car Works, but now available from D. Hicks Trains in Allentown, PA. DHICKSTRAINS@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > So I guess that's it, did I miss any others...?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jay
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD k2frd@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Is there ANY manufacturer left who produces steam locomotive kits?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > At 11:28 PM +0000 12/4/09, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >Bowser steam loco kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Posted by: "Ron Plyler" ron_tallyho@ ron_tallyho
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Date: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:20 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >Talking with Bowser about the demise of their steam loco kits. They are done, the factory closed and when the parts are done, there will be no replacements. They find that most new modelers want RTR and can't be bothered with building and tweaking a kit. All the turntables kits are also a thing to the past.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9702
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Found an article about this car... TRAINS February 1954
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9703
						From: Fred Hultberg
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Tiger Valley 1st & 2nd Gen. White Metal Diesel Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Good ol' Guil Mack - I know him as a customer and sometime supplier of nice li'l castings.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Great guy... fascinating layout,too. Worth a visit if he can squeeze you in.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Runs lots of vinage stuff, Bowser, Roundhouse, old Mantua. Many customized ones, such as his Challengers(with a powered tender, maybe double-headed). Uses hook and loop couplers compatible with the old Mantua ones, but slightly modified for extra strength. Loooooooong trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Mon, 4/13/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Tiger Valley 1st & 2nd Gen. White Metal Diesel Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Monday, April 13, 2009, 10:58 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    





                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Charlie,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I was looking for them, too, about three weeks ago and could not find the website I remebered from several years ago.  By using a website tool called "Wayback Machine" I was able to find his information still floating around in the internet, even though his website had been closed. His locomotives are unique in HO as they use a chain drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I also googled his name Guileford Mack, and found that an upstate NY newspaper just did a story about him the very Sunday before and even had a video of his metal casting operations.  It is a must see!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    So here is the address for the video, (a comercial comes on first):  
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    And here is his old 2004 website, with models listed and photos on the second page.  It also has his email address:
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charlie" <railroads@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Tiger Valley
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Where can I find a list of the bodies they produce?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Charlie
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 2:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Closing of Bowser Steam, Docksider, Cary Diesel lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Fred,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I thought a bit about that too, an end of an era. A bit sad that Bowser's newest steam locomotive kits, all new from the rail up, the A-5 0-4-0 came in 1992, the B-6 in 1995, did never get the publicity they should have either, with the new can-type motors and more sophisticated drive mechanisms. The B-6 0-6-0 even came with all the detail castings in the kit, and pre-drilled, too. Others in Bowser's steam line were
 overhauled with many upgraded parts too, like the T-1 boiler. Though it is not entirely diecast, this includes the end of the once much loved, longest lived ex-Varney Docksider as well (I just checked its page), as it is now included in Bowsers regular locomotive section. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > But Bowser is also facing a smaller group of steam-era modeler-builders, and Pennsy an even smaller sub-group yet, no matter how loyal. And many in the model railroading hobby today can't simply make the time or enjoy building a kit. Times do change, so Bowser may have made a good business decison for a full-time outfit, if unpopular with some of us.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > My opinion, but the division might have been be spun off as a whole and be profitible if run by several as a second or retirement business, as Howard Mosely did so professionally with hobbytown of Boston for quite a few years. It is my understanding the custom builder Eddystone might be taking only a
 small part of the Bowser Line, which does not give me the warm fuzzy feelings as it does others, but maybe that's just me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The Cary metal diesel line is affected as well, so lovers of heavy metal should act now to secure those diesel castings you always thought about getting. With the shutting down of the great hobbytown of Boston 18 months ago, this almost brings the end to all the remaining heavy metal diesel kits, except for Tiger Valley, which concentrates mostly on second generation Alcos and pretty much produces kits to order as I understand it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'm sure that many outside our group consider all the metal Bowser and Cary lines as vintage models already, just as the diecast Mantuas and MDC - Roundhouse models gone before them. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Looking at Bush's Yardbird website, though, one could almost put together a new steam locomotive kit from all the individual parts, boilers and frames he sells! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Years ago the defunct Arbour line was purchased by Bowser, but they never produced any of those somewhat difficult to build kits. In the early 1980's, Lee Town produced two excellent limited production complete white metal and brass steam engine kits, plus conversion kits to be used with Mantua kits; until recently, parts were available from Bethlehm Car Works, but now available from D. Hicks Trains in Allentown, PA. DHICKSTRAINS@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > So I guess that's it, did I miss any others...?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jay
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD k2frd@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Is there ANY manufacturer left who produces steam locomotive kits?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > At 11:28 PM +0000 12/4/09, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >Bowser steam loco kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Posted by: "Ron Plyler" ron_tallyho@ ron_tallyho
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
 Date: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:20 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >Talking with Bowser about the demise of their steam loco kits. They are done, the factory closed and when the parts are done, there will be no replacements. They find that most new modelers want RTR and can't be bothered with building and tweaking a kit. All the turntables kits are also a thing to the past.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9705
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Closing of Bowser Steam, Docksider, Cary Diesel lines
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Charley,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Get one of the Bowser catolog or digest, or whatever they call them, I have one from about 1996 or so, it really is a very valuable resource when researching parts, or even kits for that matter..........:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Charlie <railroads@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 9:02:25 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Closing of Bowser Steam, Docksider, Cary Diesel lines

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Tiger Valley
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Where can I find a list of the bodies they produce?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Charlie
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 2:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Closing of Bowser Steam, Docksider, Cary Diesel lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Fred,

                                                                                                                                                                                    I thought a bit about that too, an end of an era. A bit sad that Bowser's newest steam locomotive kits, all new from the rail up, the A-5 0-4-0 came in 1992, the B-6 in 1995, did never get the publicity they should have either, with the new can-type motors and more sophisticated drive mechanisms. The B-6 0-6-0 even came with all the detail castings in the kit, and pre-drilled, too. Others in Bowser's steam line were overhauled with many upgraded parts too, like the T-1 boiler. Though it is not entirely diecast, this includes the end of the once much loved, longest lived ex-Varney Docksider as well (I just checked its page), as it is now included in Bowsers regular locomotive section. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    But Bowser is also facing a smaller group of steam-era modeler-builders, and Pennsy an even smaller sub-group yet, no matter how loyal. And many in the model railroading hobby today can't simply make the time or enjoy building a kit. Times do
 change, so Bowser may have made a good business decison for a full-time outfit, if unpopular with some of us.

                                                                                                                                                                                    My opinion, but the division might have been be spun off as a whole and be profitible if run by several as a second or retirement business, as Howard Mosely did so professionally with hobbytown of Boston for quite a few years. It is my understanding the custom builder Eddystone might be taking only a small part of the Bowser Line, which does not give me the warm fuzzy feelings as it does others, but maybe that's just me.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The Cary metal diesel line is affected as well, so lovers of heavy metal should act now to secure those diesel castings you always thought about getting. With the shutting down of the great hobbytown of Boston 18 months ago, this almost brings the end to all the remaining heavy metal diesel kits, except for Tiger Valley, which concentrates mostly on second generation Alcos and pretty much produces kits to order as
 I understand it. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm sure that many outside our group consider all the metal Bowser and Cary lines as vintage models already, just as the diecast Mantuas and MDC - Roundhouse models gone before them. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Looking at Bush's Yardbird website, though, one could almost put together a new steam locomotive kit from all the individual parts, boilers and frames he sells! 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Years ago the defunct Arbour line was purchased by Bowser, but they never produced any of those somewhat difficult to build kits. In the early 1980's, Lee Town produced two excellent limited production complete white metal and brass steam engine kits, plus conversion kits to be used with Mantua kits; until recently, parts were available from Bethlehm Car Works, but now available from D. Hicks Trains in Allentown, PA. DHICKSTRAINS@ msn.com 

                                                                                                                                                                                    So I guess that's
 it, did I miss any others...?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jay

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Is there ANY manufacturer left who produces steam locomotive kits?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > At 11:28 PM +0000 12/4/09, vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Bowser steam loco kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Posted by: "Ron Plyler" ron_tallyho@ ... ron_tallyho
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Date: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:20 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Talking with Bowser about the demise of their steam loco kits. They are done, the factory closed and when the parts are done, there will be no replacements. They find that most new modelers want RTR and can't be bothered with
 building and tweaking a kit. All the turntables kits are also a thing to the past.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9706
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  
  

 
Neither this one nor any other attachments have worked for me since
I sent the last message about receiving a Yahoo error page every time I
try.  I even went to the home page and tried there.  I could see the
photos but they were so small I could not see any detail and I could
not find a way to enlarge the photos.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Does someone have any instructions about how to fully use this new
feature?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
===========================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold Eckl wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Found an article about this car... TRAINS February 1954
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9707
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don (S.),
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The problem you described is exactly the same problem I used to have BEFORE the recent Yahoo changes, I was only able to see a thumbnail on my home page. Now I can see everything, everywhere and it is great.  The thing is, I can't tell you what I may have inadvertantly done to change the situation, if it was me at all.  Perhaps another can suggest something, as I know how frustrating it is.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> /Neither this one nor any other attachments have worked for me since I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> sent the last message about receiving a Yahoo error page every time I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> try.  I even went to the home page and tried there.  I could see the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> photos but they were so small I could not see any detail and I could not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> find a way to enlarge the photos. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Does someone have any instructions about how to fully use this new feature?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ===========================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> /
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gerold Eckl wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from Gerold Eckl included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Found an article about this car... TRAINS February 1954
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9708
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    It sounds like a problem between Yahoo and your browsers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The easiest solution would be to install FireFox as a second browser  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and when you find you are having problems with your regular browser,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
fire-up Firefox and copy and paste the address from Explorer into  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Firefox. Then use that site with Firefox. I had my mother doing that  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with her Windows computer and Netscape when she ran into the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
occasional problem with the AOL browser she normally used.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Eventually Yahoo will update itself to work with your Explorer  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
settings. The average user will have a rough time de-bugging, then  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
resetting Explorer to work properly with the occasional website  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm not using the standard MS browser. So I'm not, and have not been,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
seeing the same problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     On Apr 14, 2009, at 7:51 AM, the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don (S.),
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The problem you described is exactly the same problem I used to  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have BEFORE the recent Yahoo changes, I was only able to see a  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> thumbnail on my home page. Now I can see everything, everywhere and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> it is great.  The thing is, I can't tell you what I may have  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> inadvertantly done to change the situation, if it was me at all.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Perhaps another can suggest something, as I know how frustrating it  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> is.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> /Neither this one nor any other attachments have worked for me  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> since I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> sent the last message about receiving a Yahoo error page every time I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> try.  I even went to the home page and tried there.  I could see the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> photos but they were so small I could not see any detail and I  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> could not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> find a way to enlarge the photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Does someone have any instructions about how to fully use this new  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> feature? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9709
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
I use Firefox not Explorer...  The error page is a Yahoo error page
stating it is their problem.  Thanks for the response.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    =======================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    It sounds like a problem between Yahoo and your browsers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The easiest solution would be to install FireFox as a second browser 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and when you find you are having problems with your regular browser, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
fire-up Firefox and copy and paste the address from Explorer into 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Firefox. Then use that site with Firefox. I had my mother doing that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with her Windows computer and Netscape when she ran into the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
occasional problem with the AOL browser she normally used.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Eventually Yahoo will update itself to work with your Explorer 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
settings. The average user will have a rough time de-bugging, then 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
resetting Explorer to work properly with the occasional website 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm not using the standard MS browser. So I'm not, and have not been, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
seeing the same problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
On Apr 14, 2009, at 7:51 AM, the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don (S.),
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The problem you described is exactly the same problem I used to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have BEFORE the recent Yahoo changes, I was only able to see a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> thumbnail on my home page. Now I can see everything, everywhere
and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> it is great. The thing is, I can't tell you what I may have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> inadvertantly done to change the situation, if it was me at all. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Perhaps another can suggest something, as I know how frustrating
it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> is.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> /Neither this one nor any other attachments have worked for me
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> since I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> sent the last message about receiving a Yahoo error page every
time I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> try. I even went to the home page and tried there. I could see
the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> photos but they were so small I could not see any detail and I
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> could not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> find a way to enlarge the photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Does someone have any instructions about how to fully use this
new 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> feature?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9710
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: PFM  Whitcomb ad
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I've taken a much closer look at the PFM ad for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Docksider and Plymouth.....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The Docksider in the ad is definitly NOT the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Rivarossi, AHM etc. unit.  The "pose" of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Docksider in the ad fooled me.  The drivers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
are also smaller than the Rivarossi, AHM units. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
As a side comment I think I recall a very nice
                                                                                                                                                                                    
looking all brass Docksider but have no idea who
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the mfg. was/is.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The "Plymouth" shown in the ad also has a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
very revealing pic of the motor used.  Definitly 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
NOT a Pittman, like the Penn Line.  The clearly
                                                                                                                                                                                    
visible segmented pole pieces, crude looking
                                                                                                                                                                                    
motor magnet, and clumsy looking motor brush
                                                                                                                                                                                    
assy. are dead giveaways that the motor is not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a Pittman.  To be fair many of the motors used
                                                                                                                                                                                    
in imported brass were of similar (lacking) quality.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The signature feature of these motors was an almost
                                                                                                                                                                                    
universal tendency to run very hot.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I am also facinated by the "rubber-belt reduction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
drive" used instead of the worm and gear that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Penn Line used.  Again, to be fair, Penn Line
                                                                                                                                                                                    
used a "belt" early on but soon switched to a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
worm and gear arrangement. Other than the earliest
                                                                                                                                                                                    
varsion, I don't recall seeing the "belt" drive
                                                                                                                                                                                    
again. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I also noticed the 2 different couplers on on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the Plymouth.  I did the same on the first
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Plymouth I had.  Early on I used the Mantua
                                                                                                                                                                                    
coupler and the NMRA coupler on mine then changed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
to a Kaydee when they appeared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Here is the ad from the September 1965 RMC. Not sure, but it seems to me 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> there is "made in Japan" cast into the cab roof?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I may send it off line in higher resolution if desired.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9711
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
Well, I try to be helpful........

                                                                                                                                                                                    I almost always use  Safari and for some rarely troublesome site, I then use Firefox.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The  principle  of having another browser to use from time to time is the key. Have you tried the new Netscape/Mozilla  browsers??? Or Opera ?  You have more browser options than you might think at first.

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 14, 2009, at 8:33 AM, Donald R. Staton wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                    I use Firefox not Explorer...  The error page is a Yahoo error page stating it is their problem.  Thanks for the response.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    =======================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    It sounds like a problem between Yahoo and your browsers.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The easiest solution would be to install FireFox as a second browser 
                                                                                                                                                                                    and when you find you are having problems with your regular browser, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    fire-up Firefox and copy and paste the address from Explorer into 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Firefox. .....................
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9712
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
Had NetScape before Firefox...  Switched because it was a problem. 
I never use Explorer although I have it.  The problem with Yahoo was
intermittent for a while.  Now it is almost always failure with the
error message.  Thanks again.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
==========================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Well, I try to be helpful..... ...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I almost always use  Safari and for some rarely troublesome
site, I then use Firefox.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    The  principle  of having another browser to use from time to
time is the key. Have you tried the new Netscape/Mozilla  browsers???
Or Opera ?  You have more browser options than you might think at first.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 14, 2009, at 8:33 AM, Donald R. Staton wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    I use Firefox not Explorer...  The error page is a Yahoo error
page stating it is their problem.  Thanks for the response.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                        ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =======
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers wrote:
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    It sounds like a problem between Yahoo and your browsers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The easiest solution would be to install FireFox as a second browser 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and when you find you are having problems with your regular browser, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
fire-up Firefox and copy and paste the address from Explorer into 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Firefox. ............ .........
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9713
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Why not just use Firefox all the time? It's so much 
better than Internet Explorer or Netscape, why switch back and forth? I've been 
using Firefox as my main browser for years now and have only found one site that 
doesn't work with it .... Microsoft downloads pages. I say "main browser" 
because I maintain my organizations web site so I have to test my pages with 
those other browsers too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:15 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Westwood CP 
  Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    It sounds like a problem between Yahoo and your 
  browsers.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The easiest solution would be to install FireFox as a second 
  browser  
                                                                                                                                                                                    and when you find you are having problems with your regular 
  browser,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    fire-up Firefox and copy and paste the address from 
  Explorer into  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Firefox. Then use that site with Firefox. I had my 
  mother doing that  
                                                                                                                                                                                    with her Windows computer and Netscape when she 
  ran into the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    occasional problem with the AOL browser she normally 
  used.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Eventually Yahoo will update itself to work with your 
  Explorer  
                                                                                                                                                                                    settings. The average user will have a rough time 
  de-bugging, then  
                                                                                                                                                                                    resetting Explorer to work properly with the 
  occasional website  
                                                                                                                                                                                    problems.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm not using the standard MS 
  browser. So I'm not, and have not been,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    seeing the same 
  problems.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    Milwaukee Wi, USA


                                                                                                                                                                                    On 
  Apr 14, 2009, at 7:51 AM, the_plainsman wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    > Don 
  (S.),
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The problem you described is exactly the same problem I 
  used to  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > have BEFORE the recent Yahoo changes, I was only able 
  to see a  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > thumbnail on my home page. Now I can see everything, 
  everywhere and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > it is great.  The thing is, I can't tell 
  you what I may have  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > inadvertantly done to change the situation, 
  if it was me at all.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Perhaps another can suggest 
  something, as I know how frustrating it  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > is.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > W 
  Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald 
  R. Staton" <chpln1@...>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  /Neither this one nor any other attachments have worked for me  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> since I
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> sent the last message about receiving a Yahoo 
  error page every time I
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> try.  I even went to the home page 
  and tried there.  I could see the
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> photos but they were so 
  small I could not see any detail and I  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> could 
  not
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> find a way to enlarge the photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> Does 
  someone have any instructions about how to fully use this new  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  feature?


                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9714
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
Steve, I use Firefox exclusively.  Do you have any recommendations
for the problem I am having?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
My-Yahoo-Groups wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Why not just use Firefox all the
time? It's so much better than Internet Explorer or Netscape, why
switch back and forth? I've been using Firefox as my main browser for
years now and have only found one site that doesn't work with it ....
Microsoft downloads pages. I say "main browser" because I maintain my
organizations web site so I have to test my pages with those other
browsers too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent:
Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:15 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject:
Re: [vintageHO] Re: Westwood CP Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
It sounds like a problem between Yahoo and your browsers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The easiest solution would be to install FireFox as a second browser  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and when you find you are having problems with your regular browser,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
fire-up Firefox and copy and paste the address from Explorer into  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Firefox. Then use that site with Firefox. I had my mother doing that  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with her Windows computer and Netscape when she ran into the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
occasional problem with the AOL browser she normally used.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Eventually Yahoo will update itself to work with your Explorer  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
settings. The average user will have a rough time de-bugging, then  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
resetting Explorer to work properly with the occasional website  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm not using the standard MS browser. So I'm not, and have not been,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
seeing the same problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
On Apr 14, 2009, at 7:51 AM, the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don (S.),
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The problem you described is exactly the same problem I used to  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have BEFORE the recent Yahoo changes, I was only able to see a  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> thumbnail on my home page. Now I can see everything, everywhere
and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> it is great.  The thing is, I can't tell you what I may have  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> inadvertantly done to change the situation, if it was me at all.  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Perhaps another can suggest something, as I know how frustrating
it  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> is.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> /Neither this one nor any other attachments have worked for
me  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> since I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> sent the last message about receiving a Yahoo error page every
time I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> try.  I even went to the home page and tried there.  I could
see the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> photos but they were so small I could not see any detail and
I  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> could not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> find a way to enlarge the photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Does someone have any instructions about how to fully use this
new  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> feature?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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<*> Your email settings:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9715
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                               I am sending 
the first pictures that will be 3 different segments to show the three different 
versions of early Athearn Pacific's that were MARKETED and sold to the 
public . Each segment will deal only with one run at a time. I'm breaking 
it into segments so facts are kept straight for each with time between to digest 
the data. There will be no mention of railroad names that Athearn used except to 
say all were factory painted. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               Luckily I 
had these different runs in my collection for many years and was able 
to see the differences. The Greenberg's Athearn HO train guide,  came out 
after I found these, is a very good reference book for all Athearn but 
includes these engines. At the end of these three marketed items I want to 
address the first run prototype, never sold, supposed to all have been 
scraped Pacifics as a special item. I don't want to bring up any written 
facts plus other new or unknown facts about this so as not to cloud the issue 
about the marketed Pacific's .
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        These pictures are of the first 
version available for the pubic to buy. All the versions were patterned 
after the same real engine and all had the same tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              Hopefully using 
all the pictures you will see what will become different in each run. I will 
attempt to point out major differences without taking the engines apart. There 
will be some smaller detail differences but they can be found in Greenberg's 
Athearn book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         Main differences of this 
run are:   Plastic Drivers, Brass gears are used and attached to the 
last set of drivers, 1st and second drivers are in empty housings,  entire 
electrical pick up from tender as two different wires from two different places 
run from tender to engine (sorry blurry picture of that). From my info this run 
was 1960.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              Hope the break 
down of each run useful and interesting. Later second version that Athearn 
marketed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Jim 
H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9716
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: PFM  Whitcomb ad
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    The all brass Docksider was made by Samhongsa and 
1,000 imported by GEM in 1973.  It's very nice and no doubt the premier HO 
docksider ever made.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  oljoeoh 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:38 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: PFM Whitcomb 
  ad
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                    I've taken a much closer look at the PFM ad for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    Docksider 
  and Plymouth.... .
                                                                                                                                                                                    The Docksider in the ad is definitly NOT the 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Rivarossi, AHM etc. unit. The "pose" of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    Docksider in the ad fooled 
  me. The drivers
                                                                                                                                                                                    are also smaller than the Rivarossi, AHM units. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    As a 
  side comment I think I recall a very nice
                                                                                                                                                                                    looking all brass Docksider but 
  have no idea who
                                                                                                                                                                                    the mfg. was/is.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The "Plymouth" shown in the ad 
  also has a
                                                                                                                                                                                    very revealing pic of the motor used. Definitly 
                                                                                                                                                                                    NOT a 
  Pittman, like the Penn Line. The clearly
                                                                                                                                                                                    visible segmented pole pieces, 
  crude looking
                                                                                                                                                                                    motor magnet, and clumsy looking motor brush
                                                                                                                                                                                    assy. are 
  dead giveaways that the motor is not
                                                                                                                                                                                    a Pittman. To be fair many of the 
  motors used
                                                                                                                                                                                    in imported brass were of similar (lacking) quality.
                                                                                                                                                                                    The 
  signature feature of these motors was an almost
                                                                                                                                                                                    universal tendency to run 
  very hot.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am also facinated by the "rubber-belt reduction
                                                                                                                                                                                    drive" 
  used instead of the worm and gear that
                                                                                                                                                                                    Penn Line used. Again, to be fair, 
  Penn Line
                                                                                                                                                                                    used a "belt" early on but soon switched to a
                                                                                                                                                                                    worm and gear 
  arrangement. Other than the earliest
                                                                                                                                                                                    varsion, I don't recall seeing the 
  "belt" drive
                                                                                                                                                                                    again. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I also noticed the 2 different couplers on 
  on
                                                                                                                                                                                    the Plymouth. I did the same on the first
                                                                                                                                                                                    Plymouth I had. Early on I 
  used the Mantua
                                                                                                                                                                                    coupler and the NMRA coupler on mine then changed
                                                                                                                                                                                    to a 
  Kaydee when they appeared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Joe O'Loughlin

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Here is the ad from the 
  September 1965 RMC. Not sure, but it seems to me 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > there is "made in 
  Japan" cast into the cab roof?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I may send it off line in 
  higher resolution if desired.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9717
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: PFM  Whitcomb ad
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Now, I do have a question.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I recall in 1974 or probably 1975, the owner of a local hobby shop asked me to fix either a GEM Docksider or the tender version.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Seems there was no warranty on brass.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I hand-wrote a two page dissertation to MR on what I found, which was ignored, and I have not subscribed to MR since.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The shell was put together with industrial strength green epoxy on the inside.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
There was a piece of cellophane tape over the open-frame motor brushes to keep it from shorting against the shell.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The "brass" was paint.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
There was tin and who knows what else used in the shell construction.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I got the valve gear re-attached, lubed it, flipped it upside down to run it in (30 minutes fwd, 15 minutes rev), turned on the power and got grinding with no wheel movement.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The front driver set (geared) had a LONG vertical slot, with nothing to hold the axle tight against the worm.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Without the weight of the loco holding the gears in mesh, the kicked apart and ground away.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Got my eyes opened real quick.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
All those decades of being told by MR that you needed to have expensive, imported brass locomotives to be considered "serious", and then seeing what they were really like.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Now, they never spelled that out in those words, but you certainly got the drift after 20-30 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > The all brass Docksider was made by Samhongsa and 1,000 imported by GEM in 1973.  It's very nice and no doubt the premier HO docksider ever made.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: oljoeoh 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: PFM Whitcomb ad
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I've taken a much closer look at the PFM ad for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Docksider and Plymouth.....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   The Docksider in the ad is definitly NOT the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Rivarossi, AHM etc. unit. The "pose" of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Docksider in the ad fooled me. The drivers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   are also smaller than the Rivarossi, AHM units. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   As a side comment I think I recall a very nice
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   looking all brass Docksider but have no idea who
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   the mfg. was/is.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   The "Plymouth" shown in the ad also has a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   very revealing pic of the motor used. Definitly 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   NOT a Pittman, like the Penn Line. The clearly
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   visible segmented pole pieces, crude looking
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   motor magnet, and clumsy looking motor brush
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   assy. are dead giveaways that the motor is not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   a Pittman. To be fair many of the motors used
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   in imported brass were of similar (lacking) quality.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   The signature feature of these motors was an almost
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   universal tendency to run very hot.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I am also facinated by the "rubber-belt reduction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   drive" used instead of the worm and gear that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Penn Line used. Again, to be fair, Penn Line
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   used a "belt" early on but soon switched to a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   worm and gear arrangement. Other than the earliest
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   varsion, I don't recall seeing the "belt" drive
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   again. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I also noticed the 2 different couplers on on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   the Plymouth. I did the same on the first
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Plymouth I had. Early on I used the Mantua
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   coupler and the NMRA coupler on mine then changed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   to a Kaydee when they appeared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Here is the ad from the September 1965 RMC. Not sure, but it seems to me 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > there is "made in Japan" cast into the cab roof?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I may send it off line in higher resolution if desired.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9718
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I use Internet Explorer 6 with Windows 2000 and they come up with a click of the mouse every time with no errors. Maybe yahoo works better with much older technology.

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Tue, 4/14/09, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Westwood CP Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 6:56 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    Had NetScape before Firefox...  Switched because it was a problem.  I never use Explorer although I have it.  The problem with Yahoo was intermittent for a while.  Now it is almost always failure with the error message.  Thanks again.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    ==========================================

                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers wrote: 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Well, I try to be helpful..... ...
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I almost always use  Safari and for some rarely troublesome site, I then use Firefox.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The  principle  of having another browser to use from time to time is the key. Have you tried the new Netscape/Mozilla  browsers??? Or Opera ?  You have more browser options than you might think at first.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Milwaukee Wi, USA


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 14, 2009, at 8:33 AM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    I use Firefox not Explorer...  The error page is a Yahoo error page stating it is their problem.  Thanks for the response.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =======
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers wrote: 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    It sounds like a problem between Yahoo and your browsers.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The easiest solution would be to install FireFox as a second browser 
                                                                                                                                                                                    and when you find you are having problems with your regular browser, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    fire-up Firefox and copy and paste the address from Explorer into 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Firefox. ............ .........


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9719
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: photo copies
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
 Received the copies you sent today. Appreciate you did it. The Lindsay 
Stubby assembly sheet especially. I have some other Knapp items then the ones 
you sent me. If I ever get extra time I will send copies to you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I honestly 
don't know where you get all the time. The Emails you send always contain vast 
amounts of information, you always have your facts straight which requires much 
time spent researching and you are "quick" to share.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9720
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: 2nd marketed early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                         These pictures are of the 
2nd MARKETED and sold to the public early Athearn Pacific. Still the same basic 
engine and tender. I will point out the major differences from the first engine 
/ tender I sent. Again there are some smaller details that you can find for 
recognition listed in the Greenberg Athearn Guide.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            The 
differences in this version are :    Still plastic Drivers 
but a white strip has been added.  The camera flash doesn't show it 
well. BRASS GEARS ARE NOW TO THE 2ND OR MIDDLE  AXLE. The bottom plate 
hides it on this version. The electrical pick up is still in the tender 
which is exactly the same as first email. (I apologize for the poor quality of 
this picture)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             As 
mentioned in the first Email this is factory painted but I'm not getting into 
the road names used. My info said sold in 1961
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9721
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: PFM  Whitcomb ad
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have both the GEM B&O C16 0-4-0t (Docksider) 
and GEM B&O C16a 0-4-0 (tender version) and neither is remotely as you 
described.  They are both quite proper brass models.  No epoxy.  
No cellophane tape.  No tin.  No brass paint.  No gross running 
problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    My other experience with brass models for over 40 
years is also quite apart from your indictment.  Even John Allen was happy 
running brass models on the G&D.  (shameless plug:  For John allen 
fans, be sure to visit www.gdlines.com)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:35 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: PFM Whitcomb 
  ad
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Now, I do have a question.
                                                                                                                                                                                    I recall in 1974 or probably 1975, the owner 
  of a local hobby shop asked me to fix either a GEM Docksider or the tender 
  version.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Seems there was no warranty on brass.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I hand-wrote a two 
  page dissertation to MR on what I found, which was ignored, and I have not 
  subscribed to MR since.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The shell was put together with industrial 
  strength green epoxy on the inside.
                                                                                                                                                                                    There was a piece of cellophane tape 
  over the open-frame motor brushes to keep it from shorting against the 
  shell.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The "brass" was paint.
                                                                                                                                                                                    There was tin and who knows what else 
  used in the shell construction.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I got the valve gear re-attached, lubed 
  it, flipped it upside down to run it in (30 minutes fwd, 15 minutes rev), 
  turned on the power and got grinding with no wheel movement.
                                                                                                                                                                                    The front 
  driver set (geared) had a LONG vertical slot, with nothing to hold the axle 
  tight against the worm.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Without the weight of the loco holding the gears in 
  mesh, the kicked apart and ground away.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Got my eyes opened real 
  quick.
                                                                                                                                                                                    All those decades of being told by MR that you needed to have 
  expensive, imported brass locomotives to be considered "serious", and then 
  seeing what they were really like.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Now, they never spelled that out in 
  those words, but you certainly got the drift after 20-30 
  years.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                    > The all brass Docksider was made by Samhongsa and 
  1,000 imported by GEM in 1973. It's very nice and no doubt the premier HO 
  docksider ever made.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: oljoeoh 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Re: PFM Whitcomb ad
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I've taken a much closer look at the PFM ad for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Docksider and Plymouth.... .
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The Docksider in the ad is definitly 
  NOT the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Rivarossi, AHM etc. unit. The "pose" of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Docksider 
  in the ad fooled me. The drivers
                                                                                                                                                                                    > are also smaller than the Rivarossi, 
  AHM units. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As a side comment I think I recall a very nice
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  looking all brass Docksider but have no idea who
                                                                                                                                                                                    > the mfg. 
  was/is.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The "Plymouth" shown in the ad also has a
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  very revealing pic of the motor used. Definitly 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > NOT a Pittman, like 
  the Penn Line. The clearly
                                                                                                                                                                                    > visible segmented pole pieces, crude 
  looking
                                                                                                                                                                                    > motor magnet, and clumsy looking motor brush
                                                                                                                                                                                    > assy. are 
  dead giveaways that the motor is not
                                                                                                                                                                                    > a Pittman. To be fair many of the 
  motors used
                                                                                                                                                                                    > in imported brass were of similar (lacking) 
  quality.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The signature feature of these motors was an almost
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  universal tendency to run very hot.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I am also facinated by 
  the "rubber-belt reduction
                                                                                                                                                                                    > drive" used instead of the worm and gear 
  that
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Penn Line used. Again, to be fair, Penn Line
                                                                                                                                                                                    > used a 
  "belt" early on but soon switched to a
                                                                                                                                                                                    > worm and gear arrangement. 
  Other than the earliest
                                                                                                                                                                                    > varsion, I don't recall seeing the "belt" 
  drive
                                                                                                                                                                                    > again. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I also noticed the 2 different couplers 
  on on
                                                                                                                                                                                    > the Plymouth. I did the same on the first
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Plymouth I 
  had. Early on I used the Mantua
                                                                                                                                                                                    > coupler and the NMRA coupler on mine 
  then changed
                                                                                                                                                                                    > to a Kaydee when they appeared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Joe 
  O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Gerold Eckl <corv8@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Here is the ad 
  from the September 1965 RMC. Not sure, but it seems to me 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > there 
  is "made in Japan" cast into the cab roof?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I may 
  send it off line in higher resolution if desired.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
  Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9722
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Browser problem .. was Re: Westwood CP Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I can't say. I'm using Firefox and have no trouble 
viewing any pictures at any of the Yahoo Groups. Are you having the problem with 
all groups or only vintageHO?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:11 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Westwood CP 
  Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve, 
  I use Firefox exclusively.  Do you have any recommendations for the 
  problem I am having?
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don in 
  VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    =================================================

                                                                                                                                                                                    My-Yahoo-Groups 
  wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Why not just use Firefox all the time? It's so 
    much better than Internet Explorer or Netscape, why switch back and forth? 
    I've been using Firefox as my main browser for years now and have only found 
    one site that doesn't work with it .... Microsoft downloads pages. I say 
    "main browser" because I maintain my organizations web site so I have to 
    test my pages with those other browsers too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
      Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
      Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:15 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: 
      Re: [vintageHO] Re: Westwood CP Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    It sounds like a problem between Yahoo and your 
      browsers.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The easiest solution would be to install FireFox as a 
      second browser  
                                                                                                                                                                                    and when you find you are having problems with 
      your regular browser,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    fire-up Firefox and copy and paste the 
      address from Explorer into  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Firefox. Then use that site with 
      Firefox. I had my mother doing that  
                                                                                                                                                                                    with her Windows computer 
      and Netscape when she ran into the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    occasional problem with the 
      AOL browser she normally used.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Eventually Yahoo will update itself 
      to work with your Explorer  
                                                                                                                                                                                    settings. The average user will have 
      a rough time de-bugging, then  
                                                                                                                                                                                    resetting Explorer to work 
      properly with the occasional website  
                                                                                                                                                                                    problems.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm not 
      using the standard MS browser. So I'm not, and have not been,  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    seeing the same problems.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike 
      Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    Milwaukee Wi, USA


                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 14, 2009, at 7:51 AM, 
      the_plainsman wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    > Don (S.),
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The problem you 
      described is exactly the same problem I used to  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > have BEFORE 
      the recent Yahoo changes, I was only able to see a  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
      thumbnail on my home page. Now I can see everything, everywhere and  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    > it is great.  The thing is, I can't tell you what I may 
      have  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > inadvertantly done to change the situation, if it was 
      me at all.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Perhaps another can suggest something, as 
      I know how frustrating it  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > is.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay 
      W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Donald R. 
      Staton" <chpln1@...>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
      wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> /Neither this one nor any other attachments 
      have worked for me  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> since I
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> sent the last 
      message about receiving a Yahoo error page every time I
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
      try.  I even went to the home page and tried there.  I could see 
      the
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> photos but they were so small I could not see any detail 
      and I  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> could not
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> find a way to enlarge the 
      photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> Does someone have any instructions about 
      how to fully use this new  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
      feature?


                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ --------- --------- ------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9723
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Final early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                            These 
are pictures of the last and final early Pacific by Athearn. They gave up. I 
have never ran these engines for a long period of time but others have and said 
poor runners. Athearn must have felt the same way. I don't change anything in my 
vintage items. If they are poor runners then 
they still are now. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            This 
engine was originally factory painted but I know the idiot personally who 
repainted for one of his favorite railroads. You can tell he wasn't a good 
vintage collector when he got the engine and did this.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The major changes in this final run 
are:    No longer plastic drivers but blackened metal 
drivers with rims. The white strip is gone. Brass gears are still going to 
the middle drivers. The engine has total electrical pick up as the tender goes 
along for the ride, the axles on the tender are now skinny.( Not the heavy axles 
that were first used with other versions.  Those heavy axles were used for 
total tender electrical pick up, to use up axles left over from the now 
defunct Hi-F RBD and to not have to develop another axle for the purpose. 
 Irv Athearn was a penny pincher but a very shrewd business 
man).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           This last 
run was produced roughly from  1962-65.  Well that is the three styles 
that were marketed. Hope I have been clear and concise and as thorough as 
possible. Hope somebody enjoyed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            Later on 
after a rest from all these facts posted I want to discuss the first 
prototype Athearn Pacific prototype (that failed) as to what has been printed. 
This will be a very interesting discussion. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9724
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: PFM  Whitcomb ad
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    We were all quite amazed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Had to have it apart to see the green epoxy, and the steel or tin bits, and the paint.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Your driver doesen't fall out of mesh with the worm when you pick it up?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
This was definitely GEM, new in the box at the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > I have both the GEM B&O C16 0-4-0t (Docksider) and GEM B&O C16a 0-4-0 (tender version) and neither is remotely as you described.  They are both quite proper brass models.  No epoxy.  No cellophane tape.  No tin.  No brass paint.  No gross running problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> My other experience with brass models for over 40 years is also quite apart from your indictment.  Even John Allen was happy running brass models on the G&D.  (shameless plug:  For John allen fans, be sure to visit www.gdlines.com)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:35 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: PFM Whitcomb ad
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Now, I do have a question.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I recall in 1974 or probably 1975, the owner of a local hobby shop asked me to fix either a GEM Docksider or the tender version.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Seems there was no warranty on brass.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I hand-wrote a two page dissertation to MR on what I found, which was ignored, and I have not subscribed to MR since.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   The shell was put together with industrial strength green epoxy on the inside.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   There was a piece of cellophane tape over the open-frame motor brushes to keep it from shorting against the shell.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   The "brass" was paint.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   There was tin and who knows what else used in the shell construction.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I got the valve gear re-attached, lubed it, flipped it upside down to run it in (30 minutes fwd, 15 minutes rev), turned on the power and got grinding with no wheel movement.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   The front driver set (geared) had a LONG vertical slot, with nothing to hold the axle tight against the worm.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Without the weight of the loco holding the gears in mesh, the kicked apart and ground away.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Got my eyes opened real quick.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   All those decades of being told by MR that you needed to have expensive, imported brass locomotives to be considered "serious", and then seeing what they were really like.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Now, they never spelled that out in those words, but you certainly got the drift after 20-30 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > The all brass Docksider was made by Samhongsa and 1,000 imported by GEM in 1973. It's very nice and no doubt the premier HO docksider ever made.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > From: oljoeoh 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: PFM Whitcomb ad
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I've taken a much closer look at the PFM ad for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Docksider and Plymouth.....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > The Docksider in the ad is definitly NOT the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Rivarossi, AHM etc. unit. The "pose" of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Docksider in the ad fooled me. The drivers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > are also smaller than the Rivarossi, AHM units. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > As a side comment I think I recall a very nice
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > looking all brass Docksider but have no idea who
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > the mfg. was/is.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > The "Plymouth" shown in the ad also has a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > very revealing pic of the motor used. Definitly 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > NOT a Pittman, like the Penn Line. The clearly
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > visible segmented pole pieces, crude looking
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > motor magnet, and clumsy looking motor brush
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > assy. are dead giveaways that the motor is not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > a Pittman. To be fair many of the motors used
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > in imported brass were of similar (lacking) quality.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > The signature feature of these motors was an almost
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > universal tendency to run very hot.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I am also facinated by the "rubber-belt reduction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > drive" used instead of the worm and gear that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Penn Line used. Again, to be fair, Penn Line
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > used a "belt" early on but soon switched to a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > worm and gear arrangement. Other than the earliest
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > varsion, I don't recall seeing the "belt" drive
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > again. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I also noticed the 2 different couplers on on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > the Plymouth. I did the same on the first
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Plymouth I had. Early on I used the Mantua
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > coupler and the NMRA coupler on mine then changed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > to a Kaydee when they appeared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > > Here is the ad from the September 1965 RMC. Not sure, but it seems to me 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > > there is "made in Japan" cast into the cab roof?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > > I may send it off line in higher resolution if desired.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9725
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: PFM  Whitcomb ad
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
That Gem model could have been a mock-up to give the general
appearance rather than a for sale production model.  I know from
experience that all Gem models were not perfect and all were not well
made.  I painted a number of them and made repairs for the seller I
worked for.  I even had one where the gear box cover had "v" shaped
notches right over the driver axle creating a sloppy mesh on the gear
and the worm if the loco was not on the track.  I also had one that was
covered inside with sandblasting sand.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
curmudgeon wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    We were all quite amazed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Had to have it apart to see the green epoxy, and the steel or tin bits,
and the paint.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Your driver doesen't fall out of mesh with the worm when you pick it up?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
This was definitely GEM, new in the box at the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have both the GEM B&O C16 0-4-0t (Docksider) and GEM B&O
C16a 0-4-0 (tender version) and neither is remotely as you described.
They are both quite proper brass models. No epoxy. No cellophane tape.
No tin. No brass paint. No gross running problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> My other experience with brass models for over 40 years is also
quite apart from your indictment. Even John Allen was happy running
brass models on the G&D. (shameless plug: For John allen fans, be
sure to visit www.gdlines. com)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:35 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: PFM Whitcomb ad
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Now, I do have a question.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I recall in 1974 or probably 1975, the owner of a local hobby shop
asked me to fix either a GEM Docksider or the tender version.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Seems there was no warranty on brass.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I hand-wrote a two page dissertation to MR on what I found, which
was ignored, and I have not subscribed to MR since.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The shell was put together with industrial strength green epoxy on
the inside.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> There was a piece of cellophane tape over the open-frame motor
brushes to keep it from shorting against the shell.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The "brass" was paint.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> There was tin and who knows what else used in the shell
construction.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I got the valve gear re-attached, lubed it, flipped it upside down
to run it in (30 minutes fwd, 15 minutes rev), turned on the power and
got grinding with no wheel movement.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The front driver set (geared) had a LONG vertical slot, with
nothing to hold the axle tight against the worm.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Without the weight of the loco holding the gears in mesh, the
kicked apart and ground away.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Got my eyes opened real quick.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> All those decades of being told by MR that you needed to have
expensive, imported brass locomotives to be considered "serious", and
then seeing what they were really like.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Now, they never spelled that out in those words, but you certainly
got the drift after 20-30 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The all brass Docksider was made by Samhongsa and 1,000
imported by GEM in 1973. It's very nice and no doubt the premier HO
docksider ever made.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: oljoeoh 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: PFM Whitcomb ad
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I've taken a much closer look at the PFM ad for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Docksider and Plymouth.... .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The Docksider in the ad is definitly NOT the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Rivarossi, AHM etc. unit. The "pose" of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Docksider in the ad fooled me. The drivers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > are also smaller than the Rivarossi, AHM units. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > As a side comment I think I recall a very nice
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > looking all brass Docksider but have no idea who
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the mfg. was/is.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The "Plymouth" shown in the ad also has a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > very revealing pic of the motor used. Definitly 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > NOT a Pittman, like the Penn Line. The clearly
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > visible segmented pole pieces, crude looking
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > motor magnet, and clumsy looking motor brush
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > assy. are dead giveaways that the motor is not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > a Pittman. To be fair many of the motors used
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > in imported brass were of similar (lacking) quality.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The signature feature of these motors was an almost
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > universal tendency to run very hot.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I am also facinated by the "rubber-belt reduction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > drive" used instead of the worm and gear that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Penn Line used. Again, to be fair, Penn Line
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > used a "belt" early on but soon switched to a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > worm and gear arrangement. Other than the earliest
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > varsion, I don't recall seeing the "belt" drive
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > again. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I also noticed the 2 different couplers on on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the Plymouth. I did the same on the first
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Plymouth I had. Early on I used the Mantua
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > coupler and the NMRA coupler on mine then changed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > to a Kaydee when they appeared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
Gerold Eckl <corv8@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Here is the ad from the September 1965 RMC. Not sure,
but it seems to me 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > there is "made in Japan" cast into the cab roof?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I may send it off line in higher resolution if desired.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9726
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Browser problem .. was Re: Westwood CP Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thank you so much for changing the subject line to reflect what is actually being discussed. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I use IE 7 and have no problems with viewing photos from any of the groups either.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I can't say. I'm using Firefox and have no trouble viewing any pictures at any of the Yahoo Groups. Are you having the problem with all groups or only vintageHO?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steve 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9727
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Browser problem .. was Re: Westwood CP Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
I have not had occasion to use it with other groups yet.  I finally
figured out how to use the home page and get good large views of the
attachments.  Thanks for all the responses and concern.  Clicking the
attachments still does not work but I can use the site now so it is no
further problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in Va
                                                                                                                                                                                    
================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
My-Yahoo-Groups wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I can't say. I'm using Firefox and
have no trouble viewing any pictures at any of the Yahoo Groups. Are
you having the problem with all groups or only vintageHO?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent:
Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject:
Re: [vintageHO] Re: Westwood CP Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Steve, I use Firefox exclusively.  Do you have any
recommendations for the problem I am having?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
My-Yahoo-Groups wrote:
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Why not just use Firefox all the
time? It's so much better than Internet Explorer or Netscape, why
switch back and forth? I've been using Firefox as my main browser for
years now and have only found one site that doesn't work with it ....
Microsoft downloads pages. I say "main browser" because I maintain my
organizations web site so I have to test my pages with those other
browsers too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent:
Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:15 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject:
Re: [vintageHO] Re: Westwood CP Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        

                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
It sounds like a problem between Yahoo and your browsers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The easiest solution would be to install FireFox as a second browser  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and when you find you are having problems with your regular browser,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
fire-up Firefox and copy and paste the address from Explorer into  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Firefox. Then use that site with Firefox. I had my mother doing that  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with her Windows computer and Netscape when she ran into the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
occasional problem with the AOL browser she normally used.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Eventually Yahoo will update itself to work with your Explorer  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
settings. The average user will have a rough time de-bugging, then  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
resetting Explorer to work properly with the occasional website  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm not using the standard MS browser. So I'm not, and have not been,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
seeing the same problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
On Apr 14, 2009, at 7:51 AM, the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don (S.),
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The problem you described is exactly the same problem I used to  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have BEFORE the recent Yahoo changes, I was only able to see a  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> thumbnail on my home page. Now I can see everything, everywhere
and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> it is great.  The thing is, I can't tell you what I may have  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> inadvertantly done to change the situation, if it was me at all.  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Perhaps another can suggest something, as I know how frustrating
it  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> is.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> 
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> /Neither this one nor any other attachments have worked for
me  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> since I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> sent the last message about receiving a Yahoo error page every
time I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> try.  I even went to the home page and tried there.  I could
see the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> photos but they were so small I could not see any detail and
I  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> could not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> find a way to enlarge the photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Does someone have any instructions about how to fully use this
new  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> feature?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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<*> Your email settings:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9728
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Final early Athearn Pacific [5 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have accumulated some of the early Athearn Pacifics.. I have 3 of the first production with the rear drive and plastic drivers and 2 of the second production with the center drive and plastic drivers.  The motor will run in some of them and not others, but none will move down the rails(of the ones that the motor runs in.) All look somewhat like your respective pictures, none is in real pristine condition.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have only one of the last production which also does not run.  One difference in mine the tender still has the rubber band axles, but no wires come out to go to the engine. It is also in less than good condition.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Tue, 4/14/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Final early Athearn Pacific [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: lennard@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 11:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



[Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            These are pictures of the last and final early Pacific by Athearn. They gave up. I have never ran these engines for a long period of time but others have and said poor runners. Athearn must have felt the same way. I don't change anything in my vintage items. If they are poor runners then they still are now. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            This engine was originally factory painted but I know the idiot personally who repainted for one of his favorite railroads. You can tell he wasn't a good vintage collector when he got the engine and did this.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The major changes in this final run are:    No longer plastic drivers but blackened metal drivers with rims. The white strip is gone. Brass gears are still going to the middle drivers. The engine has total electrical pick up as the tender goes along for the ride, the axles on the tender are now skinny.( Not the heavy axles that were first used with other versions.  Those heavy axles were used for total tender electrical pick up, to use up axles left over from the now defunct Hi-F RBD and to not have to develop another axle for the purpose.  Irv Athearn was a penny pincher but a very shrewd business man).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           This last run was produced roughly from  1962-65.  Well that is the three styles that were marketed. Hope I have been clear and concise and as thorough as possible. Hope somebody enjoyed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            Later on after a rest from all these facts posted I want to discuss the first prototype Athearn Pacific prototype (that failed) as to what has been printed. This will be a very interesting discussion. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachment(s) from jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    5 of 5 Photo(s) 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    






                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9729
						From: Karl Peters
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sadly, I have to agree with the statement that most kits are never started.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Almost all the kits I have purchased in the last five years were from previous owners. The few that were not were structure kits. I have also been thinning out my collection as well, due to changes in intrests.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9730
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Final early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  
  

 
The 1st loco with the rear axle gear had too much axle slop.  If
properly shimmed it could be adjusted to run well.  I never had a good
2nd production loco so I cannot comment on it.  The last production
loco and the 0-6-0 switcher were prone to crack the axle centers
including the one with the gear and they were not repairable after they
cracked.  The plastic centers held the driver axles in place and in
quarter so the rods would fit and work properly.  It was a workable
idea but they chose an unusual prototype loco to model and it was not a
great favorite.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The same drive idea was used for a power unit for the HObby Line
Berkshire loco and it worked marvelously.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
==============================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Wobbly913 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    I have accumulated some of the early Athearn Pacifics.. I
have 3 of the first production with the rear drive and plastic drivers
and 2 of the second production with the center drive and plastic
drivers.  The motor will run in some of them and not others, but none
will move down the rails(of the ones that the motor runs in.) All look
somewhat like your respective pictures, none is in real pristine
condition.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    I have only one of the last production which also does not
run.  One difference in mine the tender still has the rubber band
axles, but no wires come out to go to the engine. It is also in less
than good condition.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- On Tue, 4/14/09, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Final early Athearn Pacific [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Cc: lennard@etex. net
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 11:43 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                            These are pictures
of the last and final early Pacific by Athearn. They gave up. I have
never ran these engines for a long period of time but others have and
said poor runners. Athearn must have felt the same way. I don't change
anything in my vintage items. If they are poor runners then they still are now. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                            This engine was
originally factory painted but I know the idiot personally who
repainted for one of his favorite railroads. You can tell he wasn't a
good vintage collector when he got the engine and did this.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    The major changes in this
final run are:    No longer plastic drivers but blackened metal
drivers with rims. The white strip is gone. Brass gears are still going
to the middle drivers. The engine has total electrical pick up as the
tender goes along for the ride, the axles on the tender are now
skinny.( Not the heavy axles that were first used with other versions. 
Those heavy axles were used for total tender electrical pick up, to use
up axles left over from the now defunct Hi-F RBD and to not have to
develop another axle for the purpose.  Irv Athearn was a penny pincher
but a very shrewd business man).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                           This last run was
produced roughly from  1962-65.  Well that is the three styles that
were marketed. Hope I have been clear and concise and as thorough as
possible. Hope somebody enjoyed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                            Later on after a
rest from all these facts posted I want to discuss the first prototype
Athearn Pacific prototype (that failed) as to what has been printed.
This will be a very interesting discussion. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachment(s)
from jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    5
of 5 Photo(s) 
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
          
          
          
          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                            		
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9731
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Karl,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thats how I get the bulk of my kits as well, usually through ebay, I have a Bowser/Pennline H9 that I got from someone at a train sale for next to nothing, all that was wrong with it was the connecting rods were out of alignment, once I got new connecting rods on her, she ran great, I've gotten MDC kits off of ebay, the only kit that I got brand new was 4 years ago, I got an Old Lady consolidation from my local dealer, it practically fell together by itself, so I can't understand why so many folks are intimidated by a steam locomotive..........:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Karl Peters <krlpeters@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:12:26 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sadly, I have to agree with the statement that most kits are never started.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Almost all the kits I have purchased in the last five years were from previous owners. The few that were not were structure kits. I have also been thinning out my collection as well, due to changes in intrests.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Karl Peters

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9732
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Final early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                         While a 
little time consuming I have come up with a way to repair those cracked 
drive axles. After I get done with articles I'm on I will share it with you or 
any body in more detail unless my below explanation enough. I have 
used it mostly on the 0-6-0 and been successful. It basically involves cutting 
down "the ears" aside the gear to allow a brass ring to be put on tight pulling 
together the gear but still allowing the gear to ride "in the saddle " and turn 
freely. I found NO adhesives that will hold the gears that are cracked together. 
Since the driver axles are kind of oversize and pressed into that middle pieces 
all the gluing and epoxies worthless. Once the brass rings are on NO 
PROBLEM.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           Like you said 
he Simms power unit (I have one) for the 
HObbyline plastic Berkshire is the same setup. I have not run minel ong enough 
to see any problem. I had always thought the cracking in the Athearn engines was 
to tight of tolerance but many have suggested the plastic used in the Athearn 
axles aged badly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:16 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Final early 
  Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    The 1st loco with the rear axle gear had too much axle slop.  If 
  properly shimmed it could be adjusted to run well.  I never had a good 
  2nd production loco so I cannot comment on it.  The last production loco 
  and the 0-6-0 switcher were prone to crack the axle centers including the one 
  with the gear and they were not repairable after they cracked.  The 
  plastic centers held the driver axles in place and in quarter so the rods 
  would fit and work properly.  It was a workable idea but they chose an 
  unusual prototype loco to model and it was not a great favorite.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The 
  same drive idea was used for a power unit for the HObby Line Berkshire loco 
  and it worked marvelously.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don in 
  VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    ============ ========= =========

                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913 wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    I have accumulated some of the early Athearn Pacifics.. I have 3 
          of the first production with the rear drive and plastic drivers and 2 
          of the second production with the center drive and plastic 
          drivers.  The motor will run in some of them and not others, but 
          none will move down the rails(of the ones that the motor runs in.) All 
          look somewhat like your respective pictures, none is in real pristine 
          condition.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    I have only one of the last production which also does not 
          run.  One difference in mine the tender still has the rubber band 
          axles, but no wires come out to go to the engine. It is also in less 
          than good condition.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                    --- On Tue, 4/14/09, jim heckard 
          <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
            jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] 
            Final early Athearn Pacific [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
            vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: lennard@etex. net
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: 
            Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 11:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included 
            below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                            These are pictures 
            of the last and final early Pacific by Athearn. They gave up. I have 
            never ran these engines for a long period of time but others have 
            and said poor runners. Athearn must have felt the same way. I don't 
            change anything in my vintage items. If they are poor runners then they still are now. 
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                            This engine was 
            originally factory painted but I know the idiot personally who 
            repainted for one of his favorite railroads. You can tell he wasn't 
            a good vintage collector when he got the engine and did 
            this.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    The major changes in this 
            final run are:    No longer plastic drivers but 
            blackened metal drivers with rims. The white strip is gone. 
            Brass gears are still going to the middle drivers. The engine has 
            total electrical pick up as the tender goes along for the ride, the 
            axles on the tender are now skinny.( Not the heavy axles that were 
            first used with other versions.  Those heavy axles were used 
            for total tender electrical pick up, to use up axles left over 
            from the now defunct Hi-F RBD and to not have to develop 
            another axle for the purpose.  Irv Athearn was a penny pincher 
            but a very shrewd business man).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                           
            This last run was produced roughly from  1962-65. 
             Well that is the three styles that were marketed. Hope I have 
            been clear and concise and as thorough as possible. Hope somebody 
            enjoyed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                            Later on after a 
            rest from all these facts posted I want to discuss the first 
            prototype Athearn Pacific prototype (that failed) as to what has 
            been printed. This will be a very interesting 
            discussion. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
            Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachment(s) from jim heckard 
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    5 of 5 
            Photo(s) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
            
            
            
            


                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9733
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Final early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    There is so much slop in the axle slots that the frame touchs the rails thus grounding out the power. I have actually considered the shim idea, but never came up with a real usable plan. That is what to shim with and how to hold it in place. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I haven't messed with them in quite some time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Tue, 4/14/09, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Final early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 1:16 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    The 1st loco with the rear axle gear had too much axle slop.  If properly shimmed it could be adjusted to run well.  I never had a good 2nd production loco so I cannot comment on it.  The last production loco and the 0-6-0 switcher were prone to crack the axle centers including the one with the gear and they were not repairable after they cracked.  The plastic centers held the driver axles in place and in quarter so the rods would fit and work properly.  It was a workable idea but they chose an unusual prototype loco to model and it was not a great favorite.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The same drive idea was used for a power unit for the HObby Line Berkshire loco and it worked marvelously.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    ==============================

                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913 wrote: 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have accumulated some of the early Athearn Pacifics.. I have 3 of the first production with the rear drive and plastic drivers and 2 of the second production with the center drive and plastic drivers.  The motor will run in some of them and not others, but none will move down the rails(of the ones that the motor runs in.) All look somewhat like your respective pictures, none is in real pristine condition.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have only one of the last production which also does not run.  One difference in mine the tender still has the rubber band axles, but no wires come out to go to the engine. It is also in less than good condition.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                    --- On Tue, 4/14/09, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Final early Athearn Pacific [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: lennard@etex. net
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 11:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            These are pictures of the last and final early Pacific by Athearn. They gave up. I have never ran these engines for a long period of time but others have and said poor runners. Athearn must have felt the same way. I don't change anything in my vintage items. If they are poor runners then they still are now. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            This engine was originally factory painted but I know the idiot personally who repainted for one of his favorite railroads. You can tell he wasn't a good vintage collector when he got the engine and did this.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The major changes in this final run are:    No longer plastic drivers but blackened metal drivers with rims. The white strip is gone. Brass gears are still going to the middle drivers. The engine has total electrical pick up as the tender goes along for the ride, the axles on the tender are now skinny.( Not the heavy axles that were first used with other versions.  Those heavy axles were used for total tender electrical pick up, to use up axles left over from the now defunct Hi-F RBD and to not have to develop another axle for the purpose.  Irv Athearn was a penny pincher but a very shrewd business man).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           This last run was produced roughly from  1962-65.  Well that is the three styles that were marketed. Hope I have been clear and concise and as thorough as possible. Hope somebody enjoyed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            Later on after a rest from all these facts posted I want to discuss the first prototype Athearn Pacific prototype (that failed) as to what has been printed. This will be a very interesting discussion. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    5 of 5 Photo(s) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    









                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9734
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Final early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
I had thought of the rings but never got the time to do it.  The
plastic they used did not take the stress very well and simply
cracked.  Many, but not all, of the Pacifics cracked also
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks for the response and for the great information you have been
putting out to the rest of us.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         While a little time consuming I
have come up with a way to repair those cracked drive axles. After I
get done with articles I'm on I will share it with you or any body
in more detail unless my below explanation enough. I have used it
mostly on the 0-6-0 and been successful. It basically involves cutting
down "the ears" aside the gear to allow a brass ring to be put on tight
pulling together the gear but still allowing the gear to ride "in the
saddle " and turn freely. I found NO adhesives that will hold the gears
that are cracked together. Since the driver axles are kind of oversize
and pressed into that middle pieces all the gluing and epoxies
worthless. Once the brass rings are on NO PROBLEM.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Like you said he Simms power
unit (I have one) for the HObbyline
plastic Berkshire is the same setup. I have not run minel ong enough to
see any problem. I had always thought the cracking in the Athearn
engines was to tight of tolerance but many have suggested the plastic
used in the Athearn axles aged badly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent:
Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:16 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject:
Re: [vintageHO] Final early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    The 1st loco with the rear axle gear had too much axle slop. 
If properly shimmed it could be adjusted to run well.  I never had a
good 2nd production loco so I cannot comment on it.  The last
production loco and the 0-6-0 switcher were prone to crack the axle
centers including the one with the gear and they were not repairable
after they cracked.  The plastic centers held the driver axles in place
and in quarter so the rods would fit and work properly.  It was a
workable idea but they chose an unusual prototype loco to model and it
was not a great favorite.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The same drive idea was used for a power unit for the HObby Line
Berkshire loco and it worked marvelously.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
============ ========= =========
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Wobbly913 wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    I have accumulated some of the early Athearn
Pacifics.. I have 3 of the first production with the rear drive and
plastic drivers and 2 of the second production with the center drive
and plastic drivers.  The motor will run in some of them and not
others, but none will move down the rails(of the ones that the motor
runs in.) All look somewhat like your respective pictures, none is in
real pristine condition.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    I have only one of the last production which also does
not run.  One difference in mine the tender still has the rubber band
axles, but no wires come out to go to the engine. It is also in less
than good condition.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- On Tue, 4/14/09, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Final early Athearn Pacific [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Cc: lennard@etex. net
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 11:43 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                    [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included
below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                            These are
pictures of the last and final early Pacific by Athearn. They gave up.
I have never ran these engines for a long period of time but others
have and said poor runners. Athearn must have felt the same way. I
don't change anything in my vintage items. If they are poor runners then they still are now. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                            This engine was
originally factory painted but I know the idiot personally who
repainted for one of his favorite railroads. You can tell he wasn't a
good vintage collector when he got the engine and did this.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                    The major changes in
this final run are:    No longer plastic drivers but blackened metal
drivers with rims. The white strip is gone. Brass gears are still going
to the middle drivers. The engine has total electrical pick up as the
tender goes along for the ride, the axles on the tender are now
skinny.( Not the heavy axles that were first used with other versions. 
Those heavy axles were used for total tender electrical pick up, to use
up axles left over from the now defunct Hi-F RBD and to not have to
develop another axle for the purpose.  Irv Athearn was a penny pincher
but a very shrewd business man).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                           This last run was
produced roughly from  1962-65.  Well that is the three styles that
were marketed. Hope I have been clear and concise and as thorough as
possible. Hope somebody enjoyed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                            Later on after a
rest from all these facts posted I want to discuss the first prototype
Athearn Pacific prototype (that failed) as to what has been printed.
This will be a very interesting discussion. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
              
                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachment(s)
from jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                    5 of 5 Photo(s) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
              
              
              
              
              
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                		
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                            
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9735
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Final early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
The only one I had to shim was the 1st run with the gear on the rear
axle.  I placed the shim on the cover plate between the cover plate and
the axle in order to keep the gear mesh.  That cover plate on mine was
plastic and it did not hit the rails.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The 3rd production model that I used for rebuilding had no slop and ran
well.  I repowered it with one of the old square Athearn-Globe motors
and it ran extremely well.  I used it to custom build a Hudson for a
customer and he loved it also.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
If I ever get them out again I will check on that and see what can be
done.  I should still have at least two in the original boxes and never
run.  That plastic foam packing created quite a mess though in these
and in AHM-Rivirossi stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=====================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Wobbly913 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    There is so much slop in the axle slots that the frame
touchs the rails thus grounding out the power. I have actually
considered the shim idea, but never came up with a real usable plan.
That is what to shim with and how to hold it in place. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    I haven't messed with them in quite some time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- On Tue, 4/14/09, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@verizon. net>
wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@verizon. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Final early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 1:16 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          The 1st loco with the rear axle gear had too much axle
slop.  If properly shimmed it could be adjusted to run well.  I never
had a good 2nd production loco so I cannot comment on it.  The last
production loco and the 0-6-0 switcher were prone to crack the axle
centers including the one with the gear and they were not repairable
after they cracked.  The plastic centers held the driver axles in place
and in quarter so the rods would fit and work properly.  It was a
workable idea but they chose an unusual prototype loco to model and it
was not a great favorite.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The same drive idea was used for a power unit for the HObby Line
Berkshire loco and it worked marvelously.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
============ ========= =========
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Wobbly913 wrote:
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I have accumulated some of the early Athearn
Pacifics.. I have 3 of the first production with the rear drive and
plastic drivers and 2 of the second production with the center drive
and plastic drivers.  The motor will run in some of them and not
others, but none will move down the rails(of the ones that the motor
runs in.) All look somewhat like your respective pictures, none is in
real pristine condition.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I have only one of the last production which
also does not run.  One difference in mine the tender still has the
rubber band axles, but no wires come out to go to the engine. It is
also in less than good condition.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- On Tue, 4/14/09, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Final early Athearn Pacific [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Cc: lennard@etex. net
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Date: Tuesday, April 14, 2009, 11:43 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    [Attachment(s) from jim heckard
included below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                            These are
pictures of the last and final early Pacific by Athearn. They gave up.
I have never ran these engines for a long period of time but others
have and said poor runners. Athearn must have felt the same way. I
don't change anything in my vintage items. If they are poor runners then they still are now. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                            This
engine was originally factory painted but I know the idiot personally
who repainted for one of his favorite railroads. You can tell he wasn't
a good vintage collector when he got the engine and did this.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    The major changes
in this final run are:    No longer plastic drivers but blackened metal
drivers with rims. The white strip is gone. Brass gears are still going
to the middle drivers. The engine has total electrical pick up as the
tender goes along for the ride, the axles on the tender are now
skinny.( Not the heavy axles that were first used with other versions. 
Those heavy axles were used for total tender electrical pick up, to use
up axles left over from the now defunct Hi-F RBD and to not have to
develop another axle for the purpose.  Irv Athearn was a penny pincher
but a very shrewd business man).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                           This last
run was produced roughly from  1962-65.  Well that is the three styles
that were marketed. Hope I have been clear and concise and as thorough
as possible. Hope somebody enjoyed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                            Later on
after a rest from all these facts posted I want to discuss the first
prototype Athearn Pacific prototype (that failed) as to what has been
printed. This will be a very interesting discussion. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    5 of 5 Photo(s) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                    
                    
                    
                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                      		
                
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                            		
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9736
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    >>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   > Is there ANY manufacturer left who produces steam locomotive kits?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.moloco.biz/index.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.backwoodsminiatures.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    These may not be in your scale or the prototypes you desire, but it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
shows that kits are still being made.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Just wrap your legs 'round these velvet rims and strap your hands 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
'cross my engines."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    -Bruce Springsteen, "Born To Run"
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9737
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics [5 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                        Yahoo seems to have fixed their problem. The attachment links are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
working for me again.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Why is it that doctors call what they do "practice"?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9738
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                             
 I had said after I finished sending information / pictures about the 
marketed early (around 1960) Athearn Pacifics I would like to start a discussion 
about what has been written about the earliest protoype that was 
scratched.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              Let me preface 
this that I greatly respect the resource and the reference that both the 
Greenberg Athearn and Lionel Guides provide. A large group of avid 
vintage collectors with a great amount of HO knowledge got together to provide 
information for others, including me, down the road.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
However being printed around 1986 has anything changed that is now known 
about that first Athearn Pacific "fiasco" that was reported to be Hi-F rubber 
band drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             I 
have been in love with HO and it's history for 50 years. I have been part of a 
different circle of vintage collectors who were not contributors to either or 
any Greenberg book even though I know some of the contributors. Over the years 
my "inner circle" of friends have come up with things that have changed the 
beliefs some others have held. A lot deals with newly discovered items and 
changes to the written word.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            I intend 
now to pose a number of questions pertaining to what has been written, 
what people have heard or what you believe different about this ONE ITEM that 
was never sold.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            I 
am especially hoping my dear friend Ray F W gets involved. He has vast 
knowledge on many subjects, is an avid and well respected Athearn collector and 
was a major contributor to The Greenberg Athearn Guide. While we haven't always 
agreed we have always managed to discuss what we believe to be the facts. 
Because of that we have agreed on some points especially Varney (a favorite for 
both of us) and A&S casting and it's products. We have been able to share 
facts that changed both our thinking a little and come to an agreement. I 
really want Ray F W to be a Devil's Advocate and read what I will write, match 
that to facts he knows.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            That 
doesn't mean anyone else is less important.You might have one fact that you feel 
is insignificant but might be important to tie everything together. With all 
that said PLEASE all respond ,including Ray F W to these questions concerning 
ONLY the Athearn Pacific (from around1960) that didn't work out and never was 
sold. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I am a firm believer of a 
picture, or item in hand, is worth a thousand words.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     Question 
1   .    Was that first failed prototype Hi-F 
rubber band drive as seems to be written or was it an "O' ring or a coiled 
spring drive since the Athearn designers when asked about the 
first Pacific they specifically stated it was "Belt 
Drive"  ? (Please read question 4)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Question 
2          Have you or anyone that 
you know had, held, or seen this prototype ? Seen any pictures since never sold 
or , as far as this item was never advertised.   ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Question 
3         Where did the information come 
from that it was in effect Hi-F rubber band drive ?     Was 
it just supplied to someone and by whom  ?  Remember even in 
interviews between Irv Athearn and the main writer of the Athearn guide it was 
mentioned that Irv Athearn would "circumvent" questions he didn't want to 
answer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Question 
4          Do you feel that there 
is a distinction between rubber band drive (Hi-F) and belt drive or is it 
semantics at play? To me a belt drive is pulleys using an O ring or coil 
spring. I specifically cite these type belt drives for a reason that I 
will write and show  after I receive some answers to these 
questions.  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Now don't everybody pull your guns out "To shoot the messenger". 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9739
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Final early Athearn Pacific [5 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I like his road name.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Charlie W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

-- 

                                                                                                                                                                                     It's News. It's Reviews. It's Interviews. It's Free. What Are You Waiting For?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
www.movieline.com!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9740
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Of course, steam engines kits are made in even 
larger scales.  Real steam engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Check out www.discoverlivesteam.com if you 
really, really want to build a steam engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    A friend of mine even had a garage company making 
freight car kits in 1" scale (1/12 scale).  He made the kits very similar 
to Silver Streak kits which, as an HO modeler also, he was familiar with.  
They had prepainted and lettered sides, a bundle of wood parts and shapes and a 
few metal and plastic parts.  You painted the rest.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    If you go to the www.gdlines.com site and click on the photo 
galleries and then look under "Group Seven" you will see my name.  Click on 
that and there is a photo of me holding one of them.  And it really did 
build up just like a Silver Streak kit.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  Rick 
  Jones 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 2:54 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > Is 
  there ANY manufacturer left who produces steam locomotive kits?

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.moloco. biz/index. html
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.backwood sminiatures. com/

                                                                                                                                                                                    These 
  may not be in your scale or the prototypes you desire, but it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    shows that 
  kits are still being made.

                                                                                                                                                                                    -- 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Rick Jones

                                                                                                                                                                                    "Just wrap your 
  legs 'round these velvet rims and strap your hands 
                                                                                                                                                                                    'cross my 
  engines."
                                                                                                                                                                                    -Bruce Springsteen, "Born To Run"
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9741
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
Ref. Question 3...  It was either advertised or described in
pre-production information as Hi-F drive.  I distinctly remember
reading that information.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Staton in Virginia
                                                                                                                                                                                    
===============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              I had said after I
finished sending information / pictures about the marketed early
(around 1960) Athearn Pacifics I would like to start a discussion about
what has been written about the earliest protoype that was scratched.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              Let me preface this that I
greatly respect the resource and the reference that both the Greenberg
Athearn and Lionel Guides provide. A large group of avid vintage
collectors with a great amount of HO knowledge got together to provide
information for others, including me, down the road.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             However being printed
around 1986 has anything changed that is now known about that first
Athearn Pacific "fiasco" that was reported to be Hi-F rubber band drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             I have been in love with HO
and it's history for 50 years. I have been part of a different circle
of vintage collectors who were not contributors to either or any
Greenberg book even though I know some of the contributors. Over the
years my "inner circle" of friends have come up with things that have
changed the beliefs some others have held. A lot deals with newly
discovered items and changes to the written word.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            I intend now to pose a
number of questions pertaining to what has been written, what people
have heard or what you believe different about this ONE ITEM that was
never sold.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            I am especially hoping my
dear friend Ray F W gets involved. He has vast knowledge on many
subjects, is an avid and well respected Athearn collector and was a
major contributor to The Greenberg Athearn Guide. While we haven't
always agreed we have always managed to discuss what we believe to be
the facts. Because of that we have agreed on some points especially
Varney (a favorite for both of us) and A&S casting and it's
products. We have been able to share facts that changed both our
thinking a little and come to an agreement. I really want Ray F W to be
a Devil's Advocate and read what I will write, match that to facts he
knows.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            That doesn't mean anyone
else is less important.You might have one fact that you feel is
insignificant but might be important to tie everything together. With
all that said PLEASE all respond ,including Ray F W to these questions
concerning ONLY the Athearn Pacific (from around1960) that didn't work
out and never was sold. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         I am a firm believer of a
picture, or item in hand, is worth a thousand words.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     Question 1   .    Was that first
failed prototype Hi-F rubber band drive as seems to be written or was
it an "O' ring or a coiled spring drive since the Athearn
designers when asked about the first Pacific they specifically stated
it was "Belt Drive"  ? (Please read question 4)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Question 2          Have you or
anyone that you know had, held, or seen this prototype ? Seen any
pictures since never sold or , as far as this item was never
advertised.   ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Question 3         Where did the
information come from that it was in effect Hi-F rubber band drive
?     Was it just supplied to someone and by whom  ?  Remember even in
interviews between Irv Athearn and the main writer of the Athearn guide
it was mentioned that Irv Athearn would "circumvent" questions he
didn't want to answer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Question 4          Do you feel that
there is a distinction between rubber band drive (Hi-F) and belt drive
or is it semantics at play? To me a belt drive is pulleys using an O
ring or coil spring. I specifically cite these type belt drives for a
reason that I will write and show  after I receive some answers to
these questions.  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Now don't
everybody pull your guns out "To shoot the messenger". 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9742
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Final early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    All this discussion of the Athearn Pacific had me 
out in "The Basement" rooting through boxes--I know I have one somewhere--I 
recall it is in the factory box, and that the front end was missing.  No 
luck--gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The cracking of the gears was noted many years ago 
by North West Short Line---apparently the plastic used (Delrin/Nylon family) has 
a tendency to shrink after molding.  The shrinkage occurs in the first 
month.  When the gear is on a shaft, it can't shrink, so breaks.  They 
had a number of replacement gears that were aged past the shrinkage point.  
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 1:46 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Final early 
  Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9743
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics [5 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    So when was the first Athearn Pacific actually sold?  I keep seeing "1960" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
mentioned, yet Athearn ads showed it as early as 1958.  (I'm looking at page 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
58 in the September 1958 MR as I type this).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
(Of course ads of that era also showed a 2 bay hopper which I've never seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
as being an actual Athearn model either)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Cc: <lennard@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:32 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Early 60's Athearn Pacifics [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
           I am sending the first pictures that will be 3 different segments 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
to show the three different versions of early Athearn Pacific's that were 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
MARKETED and sold to the public . Each segment will deal only with one run 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
at a time. I'm breaking it into segments so facts are kept straight for each 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with time between to digest the data. There will be no mention of railroad 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
names that Athearn used except to say all were factory painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
           Luckily I had these different runs in my collection for many 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
years and was able to see the differences. The Greenberg's Athearn HO train 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
guide,  came out after I found these, is a very good reference book for all 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Athearn but includes these engines. At the end of these three marketed items 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I want to address the first run prototype, never sold, supposed to all have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
been scraped Pacifics as a special item. I don't want to bring up any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
written facts plus other new or unknown facts about this so as not to cloud 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the issue about the marketed Pacific's .
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    These pictures are of the first version available for the pubic to buy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
All the versions were patterned after the same real engine and all had the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
same tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
          Hopefully using all the pictures you will see what will become 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
different in each run. I will attempt to point out major differences without 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
taking the engines apart. There will be some smaller detail differences but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
they can be found in Greenberg's Athearn book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
     Main differences of this run are:   Plastic Drivers, Brass gears are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
used and attached to the last set of drivers, 1st and second drivers are in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
empty housings,  entire electrical pick up from tender as two different 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
wires from two different places run from tender to engine (sorry blurry 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
picture of that). From my info this run was 1960.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
          Hope the break down of each run useful and interesting. Later 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
second version that Athearn marketed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                     Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9744
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          The ad you saw 
might have been put out in 1958 because Athearn probably thought their first ill 
fated production would be coming out. The 1960 date seems to be a kind of 
consensus for the first marketed Pacific and is sometimes stated in or around 
1960. I've seen ads for other items sent out,  published on a certain 
date and then never even made. I've seen it the other way that a prototype is 
shown in a RR magazine and never produced. Sometimes it is very hard to put an 
exact date.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:09 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Early 60's 
  Athearn Pacifics
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    So when was the first Athearn Pacific actually sold? I keep seeing "1960" 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    mentioned, yet Athearn ads showed it as early as 1958. (I'm looking at 
  page 
                                                                                                                                                                                    58 in the September 1958 MR as I type this).

                                                                                                                                                                                    (Of course ads of 
  that era also showed a 2 bay hopper which I've never seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    as being an 
  actual Athearn model either)

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: 
  <lennard@etex. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
  Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:32 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Early 60's Athearn 
  Pacifics [5 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am sending the first pictures that will be 3 
  different segments 
                                                                                                                                                                                    to show the three different versions of early Athearn 
  Pacific's that were 
                                                                                                                                                                                    MARKETED and sold to the public . Each segment will 
  deal only with one run 
                                                                                                                                                                                    at a time. I'm breaking it into segments so facts 
  are kept straight for each 
                                                                                                                                                                                    with time between to digest the data. There 
  will be no mention of railroad 
                                                                                                                                                                                    names that Athearn used except to say all 
  were factory painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Luckily I had these different runs in my collection 
  for many 
                                                                                                                                                                                    years and was able to see the differences. The Greenberg's 
  Athearn HO train 
                                                                                                                                                                                    guide, came out after I found these, is a very good 
  reference book for all 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Athearn but includes these engines. At the end of 
  these three marketed items 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I want to address the first run prototype, 
  never sold, supposed to all have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    been scraped Pacifics as a special item. 
  I don't want to bring up any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    written facts plus other new or unknown facts 
  about this so as not to cloud 
                                                                                                                                                                                    the issue about the marketed Pacific's 
  .

                                                                                                                                                                                    These pictures are of the first version available for the pubic to 
  buy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    All the versions were patterned after the same real engine and all 
  had the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    same tender.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hopefully using all the pictures you will see 
  what will become 
                                                                                                                                                                                    different in each run. I will attempt to point out major 
  differences without 
                                                                                                                                                                                    taking the engines apart. There will be some smaller 
  detail differences but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    they can be found in Greenberg's Athearn 
  book.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Main differences of this run are: Plastic Drivers, Brass gears 
  are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    used and attached to the last set of drivers, 1st and second drivers 
  are in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    empty housings, entire electrical pick up from tender as two 
  different 
                                                                                                                                                                                    wires from two different places run from tender to engine (sorry 
  blurry 
                                                                                                                                                                                    picture of that). From my info this run was 1960.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hope the 
  break down of each run useful and interesting. Later 
                                                                                                                                                                                    second version that 
  Athearn marketed.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9745
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I know it's a while ago but if you can find it, 
it would be helpful especially as to what it said or showed if it was 
a pre production notice. While not saying it was an advance notice ad of 
what was to be I still would love to see the item . Did it have a picture 
that showed the Hi-F RBD or just a picture of an Athearn Pacific stating it 
would be RBD. Thanks for your response. It is very appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:49 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn's Ist 
  flawed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Ref. Question 3...  It was either advertised or described in 
  pre-production information as Hi-F drive.  I distinctly remember reading 
  that information.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Staton in 
  Virginia
                                                                                                                                                                                    ============ ========= ========= ========= ========

                                                                                                                                                                                    jim 
  heckard wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                              I had said 
    after I finished sending information / pictures about the marketed early 
    (around 1960) Athearn Pacifics I would like to start a discussion about what 
    has been written about the earliest protoype that was 
scratched.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                              Let me preface 
    this that I greatly respect the resource and the reference that both the 
    Greenberg Athearn and Lionel Guides provide. A large group of avid 
    vintage collectors with a great amount of HO knowledge got together to 
    provide information for others, including me, down the road.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                             However being 
    printed around 1986 has anything changed that is now known about that first 
    Athearn Pacific "fiasco" that was reported to be Hi-F rubber band 
    drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                             I have been in love 
    with HO and it's history for 50 years. I have been part of a different 
    circle of vintage collectors who were not contributors to either or any 
    Greenberg book even though I know some of the contributors. Over the years 
    my "inner circle" of friends have come up with things that have changed the 
    beliefs some others have held. A lot deals with newly discovered items and 
    changes to the written word.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            I 
    intend now to pose a number of questions pertaining to what has 
    been written, what people have heard or what you believe different about 
    this ONE ITEM that was never sold.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            I am especially 
    hoping my dear friend Ray F W gets involved. He has vast knowledge 
    on many subjects, is an avid and well respected Athearn collector and was a 
    major contributor to The Greenberg Athearn Guide. While we haven't always 
    agreed we have always managed to discuss what we believe to be the facts. 
    Because of that we have agreed on some points especially Varney (a favorite 
    for both of us) and A&S casting and it's products. We have been able to 
    share facts that changed both our thinking a little and come to an 
    agreement. I really want Ray F W to be a Devil's Advocate and read what 
    I will write, match that to facts he knows.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            That 
    doesn't mean anyone else is less important.You might have one fact that you 
    feel is insignificant but might be important to tie everything together. 
    With all that said PLEASE all respond ,including Ray F W to these questions 
    concerning ONLY the Athearn Pacific (from around1960) that didn't work out 
    and never was sold. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                         I am a firm believer 
    of a picture, or item in hand, is worth a thousand words.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     Question 
    1   .    Was that first failed prototype Hi-F 
    rubber band drive as seems to be written or was it an "O' ring or a coiled 
    spring drive since the Athearn designers when asked about the 
    first Pacific they specifically stated it was "Belt 
    Drive"  ? (Please read question 4)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Question 
    2          Have you or anyone 
    that you know had, held, or seen this prototype ? Seen any pictures since 
    never sold or , as far as this item was never advertised.   
    ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Question 
    3         Where did the information 
    come from that it was in effect Hi-F rubber band drive 
    ?     Was it just supplied to someone and by whom  
    ?  Remember even in interviews between Irv Athearn and the main writer 
    of the Athearn guide it was mentioned that Irv Athearn would "circumvent" 
    questions he didn't want to answer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Question 
    4          Do you feel that 
    there is a distinction between rubber band drive (Hi-F) and belt drive or is 
    it semantics at play? To me a belt drive is pulleys using an O ring or 
    coil spring. I specifically cite these type belt drives for a reason that I 
    will write and show  after I receive some answers to these 
    questions.  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                           
    Now don't everybody pull your guns out "To shoot the messenger". 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9746
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Have you put the exact error text into Google ????

                                                                                                                                                                                    That normally brings me to the precise cure for the problem as found by others with the same glitch. It always seems to work out for me.

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 14, 2009, at 8:56 AM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Had NetScape before Firefox...  Switched because it was a problem.  I never use Explorer although I have it.  The problem with Yahoo was intermittent for a while.  Now it is almost always failure with the error message.  Thanks again.
                                                                                                                                                                                    ==========================================

                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    Well, I try to be helpful..... ...

                                                                                                                                                                                    I almost always use  Safari and for some rarely troublesome site, I then use Firefox.


                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 14, 2009, at 8:33 AM, Donald R. Staton wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                    I use Firefox not Explorer...  The error page is a Yahoo error page stating it is their problem.  Thanks for the response.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9747
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Can the two of you archive, screen-copy, or file-copy your browser and firewall settings to compare between you???

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm thinking you'll see differing settings which if set to match on the problem computer, will fix the problem.

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 14, 2009, at 9:11 AM, Donald R. Staton wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve, I use Firefox exclusively.  Do you have any recommendations for the problem I am having?
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    =================================================

                                                                                                                                                                                    My-Yahoo-Groups wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Why not just use Firefox all the time? ................
                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:15 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Westwood CP Car

                                                                                                                                                                                    It sounds like a problem between Yahoo and your browsers.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The easiest solution would be to install FireFox as a second browser  
                                                                                                                                                                                    and when you find you are having problems with your regular browser,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    fire-up Firefox ...........
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9748
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
It was standard practice to advertise a proposed model to see what
would be the response before actual preparation for production.  Many
of us fussed about the practice.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=========================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    So when was the first Athearn Pacific actually sold? I keep seeing
"1960" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
mentioned, yet Athearn ads showed it as early as 1958. (I'm looking at
page 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
58 in the September 1958 MR as I type this).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(Of course ads of that era also showed a 2 bay hopper which I've never
seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
as being an actual Athearn model either)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Cc: <lennard@etex. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:32 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Early 60's Athearn Pacifics [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I am sending the first pictures that will be 3 different segments 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
to show the three different versions of early Athearn Pacific's that
were 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
MARKETED and sold to the public . Each segment will deal only with one
run 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
at a time. I'm breaking it into segments so facts are kept straight for
each 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with time between to digest the data. There will be no mention of
railroad 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
names that Athearn used except to say all were factory painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Luckily I had these different runs in my collection for many 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
years and was able to see the differences. The Greenberg's Athearn HO
train 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
guide, came out after I found these, is a very good reference book for
all 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Athearn but includes these engines. At the end of these three marketed
items 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I want to address the first run prototype, never sold, supposed to all
have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
been scraped Pacifics as a special item. I don't want to bring up any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
written facts plus other new or unknown facts about this so as not to
cloud 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the issue about the marketed Pacific's .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
These pictures are of the first version available for the pubic to buy.
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
All the versions were patterned after the same real engine and all had
the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
same tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hopefully using all the pictures you will see what will become 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
different in each run. I will attempt to point out major differences
without 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
taking the engines apart. There will be some smaller detail differences
but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
they can be found in Greenberg's Athearn book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Main differences of this run are: Plastic Drivers, Brass gears are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
used and attached to the last set of drivers, 1st and second drivers
are in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
empty housings, entire electrical pick up from tender as two different 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
wires from two different places run from tender to engine (sorry blurry
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
picture of that). From my info this run was 1960.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hope the break down of each run useful and interesting. Later 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
second version that Athearn marketed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9749
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
I never saw a picture that gave any details on any of the drives for
any of the Pacifics by Athearn.  I did see a picture at some point.  It
did seem that we waited forever but it was probably more like 2 to 3
years.  I received my first ones after mid-year in 1962 after seeing
one run that was owned by the hobby shop owner I used to work for.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I know it's a while ago but if you
can find it, it would be helpful especially as to what it said or
showed if it was a pre production notice. While not saying it was an
advance notice ad of what was to be I still would love to see the item
. Did it have a picture that showed the Hi-F RBD or just a picture of
an Athearn Pacific stating it would be RBD. Thanks for your response.
It is very appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent:
Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject:
Re: [vintageHO] Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Ref. Question 3...  It was either advertised or described in
pre-production information as Hi-F drive.  I distinctly remember
reading that information.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Staton in Virginia
                                                                                                                                                                                    
============ ========= ========= ========= ========
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
jim heckard wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                              I had said after I
finished sending information / pictures about the marketed early
(around 1960) Athearn Pacifics I would like to start a discussion about
what has been written about the earliest protoype that was scratched.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                              Let me preface this
that I greatly respect the resource and the reference that both the
Greenberg Athearn and Lionel Guides provide. A large group of avid
vintage collectors with a great amount of HO knowledge got together to
provide information for others, including me, down the road.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                             However being printed
around 1986 has anything changed that is now known about that first
Athearn Pacific "fiasco" that was reported to be Hi-F rubber band drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                             I have been in love
with HO and it's history for 50 years. I have been part of a different
circle of vintage collectors who were not contributors to either or any
Greenberg book even though I know some of the contributors. Over the
years my "inner circle" of friends have come up with things that have
changed the beliefs some others have held. A lot deals with newly
discovered items and changes to the written word.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                            I intend now to pose a
number of questions pertaining to what has been written, what people
have heard or what you believe different about this ONE ITEM that was
never sold.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                            I am especially hoping
my dear friend Ray F W gets involved. He has vast knowledge on many
subjects, is an avid and well respected Athearn collector and was a
major contributor to The Greenberg Athearn Guide. While we haven't
always agreed we have always managed to discuss what we believe to be
the facts. Because of that we have agreed on some points especially
Varney (a favorite for both of us) and A&S casting and it's
products. We have been able to share facts that changed both our
thinking a little and come to an agreement. I really want Ray F W to be
a Devil's Advocate and read what I will write, match that to facts he
knows.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                            That doesn't mean anyone
else is less important.You might have one fact that you feel is
insignificant but might be important to tie everything together. With
all that said PLEASE all respond ,including Ray F W to these questions
concerning ONLY the Athearn Pacific (from around1960) that didn't work
out and never was sold. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                         I am a firm believer of a
picture, or item in hand, is worth a thousand words.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     Question 1   .    Was that
first failed prototype Hi-F rubber band drive as seems to be written or
was it an "O' ring or a coiled spring drive since the Athearn
designers when asked about the first Pacific they specifically stated
it was "Belt Drive"  ? (Please read question 4)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Question 2          Have you or
anyone that you know had, held, or seen this prototype ? Seen any
pictures since never sold or , as far as this item was never
advertised.   ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Question 3         Where did the
information come from that it was in effect Hi-F rubber band drive
?     Was it just supplied to someone and by whom  ?  Remember even in
interviews between Irv Athearn and the main writer of the Athearn guide
it was mentioned that Irv Athearn would "circumvent" questions he
didn't want to answer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Question 4          Do you feel
that there is a distinction between rubber band drive (Hi-F) and belt
drive or is it semantics at play? To me a belt drive is pulleys using
an O ring or coil spring. I specifically cite these type belt drives
for a reason that I will write and show  after I receive some answers
to these questions.  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Now don't
everybody pull your guns out "To shoot the messenger". 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9750
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Westwood CP Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
I just tried the attachment on the first message about the Athearn
Pacifics and it worked this time.  If it fails again I will Google it
and see what comes up.  Thanks for the idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=============================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Have you put the exact error text into Google ????
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    That normally brings me to the precise cure for the problem as
found by others with the same glitch. It always seems to work out for
me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 14, 2009, at 8:56 AM, Donald R. Staton wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Had NetScape before Firefox...  Switched because it was a
problem.  I never use Explorer although I have it.  The problem with
Yahoo was intermittent for a while.  Now it is almost always failure
with the error message.  Thanks again.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
============ ========= ========= ========= ===
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers wrote:
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Well, I try to be helpful..... ...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    I almost always use  Safari and for some rarely troublesome
site, I then use Firefox.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 14, 2009, at 8:33 AM, Donald R. Staton wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        I use Firefox not Explorer...  The error page is a Yahoo
error page stating it is their problem.  Thanks for the response.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9751
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
Make that I did see a profile picture of an Athearn Pacific
at some point...  But it was a long time before I saw an actual
model.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
==========================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I never saw a picture that gave any details on any of the
drives for
any of the Pacifics by Athearn.  I did see a picture at some
point.  It
did seem that we waited forever but it was probably more like 2 to 3
years.  I received my first ones after mid-year in 1962 after seeing
one run that was owned by the hobby shop owner I used to work for.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
jim heckard wrote:
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    I know it's a while ago but if you
can find it, it would be helpful especially as to what it said or
showed if it was a pre production notice. While not saying it was an
advance notice ad of what was to be I still would love to see the item
. Did it have a picture that showed the Hi-F RBD or just a picture of
an Athearn Pacific stating it would be RBD. Thanks for your response.
It is very appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent:
Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject:
Re: [vintageHO] Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Ref. Question 3...  It was either advertised or described
in
pre-production information as Hi-F drive.  I distinctly remember
reading that information.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Staton in Virginia
                                                                                                                                                                                    
============ ========= ========= ========= ========
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
jim heckard wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                              I had said after I
finished sending information / pictures about the marketed early
(around 1960) Athearn Pacifics I would like to start a discussion about
what has been written about the earliest protoype that was scratched.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                              Let me preface this
that I greatly respect the resource and the reference that both the
Greenberg Athearn and Lionel Guides provide. A large group of avid
vintage collectors with a great amount of HO knowledge got together to
provide information for others, including me, down the road.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                             However being printed
around 1986 has anything changed that is now known about that first
Athearn Pacific "fiasco" that was reported to be Hi-F rubber band drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                             I have been in love
with HO and it's history for 50 years. I have been part of a different
circle of vintage collectors who were not contributors to either or any
Greenberg book even though I know some of the contributors. Over the
years my "inner circle" of friends have come up with things that have
changed the beliefs some others have held. A lot deals with newly
discovered items and changes to the written word.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            I intend now to pose a
number of questions pertaining to what has been written, what people
have heard or what you believe different about this ONE ITEM that was
never sold.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            I am especially hoping
my dear friend Ray F W gets involved. He has vast knowledge on many
subjects, is an avid and well respected Athearn collector and was a
major contributor to The Greenberg Athearn Guide. While we haven't
always agreed we have always managed to discuss what we believe to be
the facts. Because of that we have agreed on some points especially
Varney (a favorite for both of us) and A&S casting and it's
products. We have been able to share facts that changed both our
thinking a little and come to an agreement. I really want Ray F W to be
a Devil's Advocate and read what I will write, match that to facts he
knows.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            That doesn't mean
anyone
else is less important.You might have one fact that you feel is
insignificant but might be important to tie everything together. With
all that said PLEASE all respond ,including Ray F W to these questions
concerning ONLY the Athearn Pacific (from around1960) that didn't work
out and never was sold. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                         I am a firm believer of a
picture, or item in hand, is worth a thousand words.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     Question 1   .    Was that
first failed prototype Hi-F rubber band drive as seems to be written or
was it an "O' ring or a coiled spring drive since the Athearn
designers when asked about the first Pacific they specifically stated
it was "Belt Drive"  ? (Please read question 4)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Question 2          Have you
or
anyone that you know had, held, or seen this prototype ? Seen any
pictures since never sold or , as far as this item was never
advertised.   ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Question 3         Where did
the
information come from that it was in effect Hi-F rubber band drive
?     Was it just supplied to someone and by whom  ?  Remember even in
interviews between Irv Athearn and the main writer of the Athearn guide
it was mentioned that Irv Athearn would "circumvent" questions he
didn't want to answer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Question 4          Do you
feel
that there is a distinction between rubber band drive (Hi-F) and belt
drive or is it semantics at play? To me a belt drive is pulleys using
an O ring or coil spring. I specifically cite these type belt drives
for a reason that I will write and show  after I receive some answers
to these questions.  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                           Now
don't
everybody pull your guns out "To shoot the messenger". 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9752
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don, I'm going to take Jim up on his offer to let anyone put two cents of data in.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    HOSeeker does show pg 4 of the 1958 Athearn catalog with a Hi-F Pacific kit, RTR engine, and in a train set.
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:09:02 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Early 60's Athearn Pacifics

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    So when was the first Athearn Pacific actually sold? I keep seeing "1960" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    mentioned, yet Athearn ads showed it as early as 1958. (I'm looking at page 
                                                                                                                                                                                    58 in the September 1958 MR as I type this).

                                                                                                                                                                                    (Of course ads of that era also showed a 2 bay hopper which I've never seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    as being an actual Athearn model either)

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: <lennard@etex. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:32 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Early 60's Athearn Pacifics [5 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am sending the first pictures that will be 3 different segments 
                                                                                                                                                                                    to show the three different versions of early Athearn Pacific's that were 
                                                                                                                                                                                    MARKETED and sold to the public . Each segment will deal only with one run 
                                                                                                                                                                                    at a time. I'm
 breaking it into segments so facts are kept straight for each 
                                                                                                                                                                                    with time between to digest the data. There will be no mention of railroad 
                                                                                                                                                                                    names that Athearn used except to say all were factory painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Luckily I had these different runs in my collection for many 
                                                                                                                                                                                    years and was able to see the differences. The Greenberg's Athearn HO train 
                                                                                                                                                                                    guide, came out after I found these, is a very good reference book for all 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Athearn but includes these engines. At the end of these three marketed items 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I want to address the first run prototype, never sold, supposed to all have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    been scraped Pacifics as a special item. I don't want to bring up any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    written facts plus other new or unknown facts about this so as not to cloud 
                                                                                                                                                                                    the issue about the marketed Pacific's .

                                                                                                                                                                                    These pictures are of the first version available for the pubic to buy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    All the versions were patterned after the same real engine and all had the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    same
 tender.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hopefully using all the pictures you will see what will become 
                                                                                                                                                                                    different in each run. I will attempt to point out major differences without 
                                                                                                                                                                                    taking the engines apart. There will be some smaller detail differences but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    they can be found in Greenberg's Athearn book.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Main differences of this run are: Plastic Drivers, Brass gears are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    used and attached to the last set of drivers, 1st and second drivers are in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    empty housings, entire electrical pick up from tender as two different 
                                                                                                                                                                                    wires from two different places run from tender to engine (sorry blurry 
                                                                                                                                                                                    picture of that). From my info this run was 1960.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hope the break down of each run useful and interesting. Later 
                                                                                                                                                                                    second version that Athearn marketed.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9753
						From: Karl Peters
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I subcribe to a British magazine, RAILWAY MODELLER, and have noted that kit building of locomotives and rolling stock are more popular there. They also have more books on, and supplies for building them as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    It is possible that with their smaller layouts, the modeler has more time to spend building. But my girlfriend, who is from England, has noted that more people there seem intrested in building or crafting than here.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Karl Peters 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9754
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                            I've 
never been one who looked much at HO railroad magazines and it's ads. Most 
of what I have seen have been sent to me. A lot of these showed items 
available or to be produced. I never relied much on early advance type ads even 
those showing a prototype (Lindberg U boat with improved drive)  and then 
not made. I don't totally trust catalogs ( Polks Aristo Craft Mason Bogie shown 
albeit a drawing but was to be available) never made the light of day. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           For 
Athearn it has gone even further. I will agree the official designation for 
RBD was supposed to be Hi-F. Yet I'm sitting here holding an Athearn box 
that one of my marketed Pacifics came in and 
would you believe it states" Hi-Fi" drive on the box (yes I said 
Hi-Fi not Hi-F ). Two things wrong here.  This item was scratched, never 
made and although Athearn (not sure if by Athearn it means Irv or the company 
people) and  many Athearn collectors / historians have stated Hi-Fi was 
never used. I've even seen Athearn F-7 's ( the first to use 
RBD) packaged in boxes that say Hi-Fi not Hi-F. I can provide pictures of 
these boxes, both the Pacific that was never made and the first Athearn 
item, F-7, to use the RBD. Both boxes state HI-Fi not Hi-F
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I don't trust 
any writing, ad or catalog to be a 100% unless I can see or hold ithe item 
in my hand. Hence my reservations surrounding this Pacific. Again in a couple of 
days I will present an alternative or maybe even a different failed 
prototype with some pictures and some written information.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim 
H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:01 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Early 60's 
  Athearn Pacifics
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    It was standard practice to advertise a proposed model to see what would 
  be the response before actual preparation for production.  Many of us 
  fussed about the practice.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Staton in 
  VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    ============ ========= ========= ========= ==

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don 
  Dellmann wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    So when was the first Athearn Pacific actually sold? I keep seeing "1960" 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    mentioned, yet Athearn ads showed it as early as 1958. (I'm looking at 
    page 
                                                                                                                                                                                    58 in the September 1958 MR as I type this).

                                                                                                                                                                                    (Of course ads 
    of that era also showed a 2 bay hopper which I've never seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    as being an 
    actual Athearn model either)

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
    Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: <lennard@etex. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 
    9:32 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Early 60's Athearn Pacifics [5 
    Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am sending the first pictures that will be 3 different 
    segments 
                                                                                                                                                                                    to show the three different versions of early Athearn Pacific's 
    that were 
                                                                                                                                                                                    MARKETED and sold to the public . Each segment will deal only 
    with one run 
                                                                                                                                                                                    at a time. I'm breaking it into segments so facts are kept 
    straight for each 
                                                                                                                                                                                    with time between to digest the data. There will be no 
    mention of railroad 
                                                                                                                                                                                    names that Athearn used except to say all were 
    factory painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Luckily I had these different runs in my collection for 
    many 
                                                                                                                                                                                    years and was able to see the differences. The Greenberg's Athearn 
    HO train 
                                                                                                                                                                                    guide, came out after I found these, is a very good reference 
    book for all 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Athearn but includes these engines. At the end of these 
    three marketed items 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I want to address the first run prototype, never 
    sold, supposed to all have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    been scraped Pacifics as a special item. I 
    don't want to bring up any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    written facts plus other new or unknown facts 
    about this so as not to cloud 
                                                                                                                                                                                    the issue about the marketed Pacific's 
    .

                                                                                                                                                                                    These pictures are of the first version available for the pubic to 
    buy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    All the versions were patterned after the same real engine and all 
    had the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    same tender.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hopefully using all the pictures you will 
    see what will become 
                                                                                                                                                                                    different in each run. I will attempt to point out 
    major differences without 
                                                                                                                                                                                    taking the engines apart. There will be some 
    smaller detail differences but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    they can be found in Greenberg's Athearn 
    book.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Main differences of this run are: Plastic Drivers, Brass gears 
    are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    used and attached to the last set of drivers, 1st and second drivers 
    are in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    empty housings, entire electrical pick up from tender as two 
    different 
                                                                                                                                                                                    wires from two different places run from tender to engine 
    (sorry blurry 
                                                                                                                                                                                    picture of that). From my info this run was 
    1960.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hope the break down of each run useful and interesting. Later 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    second version that Athearn marketed.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9755
						From: ho6471trains
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Oldest reefers used in  Southern CA.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I am trying to find out the oldest reefers in Southern CA.  Tom Parsons
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9756
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     I  appreciate your input. Worth 
more then two cents. Yet still  a picture, not showing a drive, of a 
proposed item that NEVER came out but I will add it to a pile of 
information I am gathering. I just sent an Email of my thoughts about an 
advanced ad not being trusted but this ad would back Don's 1958 
date.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:42 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Early 60's 
  Athearn Pacifics [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don, I'm going to take Jim up on his offer to let anyone put two cents of 
  data in.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    HOSeeker does show pg 4 of the 1958 Athearn catalog with a 
  Hi-F Pacific kit, RTR engine, and in a train set.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:09:02 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  Early 60's Athearn Pacifics

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    So when was the first Athearn Pacific actually sold? I keep seeing "1960" 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    mentioned, yet Athearn ads showed it as early as 1958. (I'm looking at 
  page 
                                                                                                                                                                                    58 in the September 1958 MR as I type this).

                                                                                                                                                                                    (Of course ads of 
  that era also showed a 2 bay hopper which I've never seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    as being an 
  actual Athearn model either)

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ 
  prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ 
  don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio 
  n
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original 
  Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. 
  net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou 
  ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: <lennard@etex. 
  net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:32 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Early 60's Athearn Pacifics [5 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am sending the first 
  pictures that will be 3 different segments 
                                                                                                                                                                                    to show the three different 
  versions of early Athearn Pacific's that were 
                                                                                                                                                                                    MARKETED and sold to the 
  public . Each segment will deal only with one run 
                                                                                                                                                                                    at a time. I'm breaking 
  it into segments so facts are kept straight for each 
                                                                                                                                                                                    with time between to 
  digest the data. There will be no mention of railroad 
                                                                                                                                                                                    names that Athearn 
  used except to say all were factory painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Luckily I had these different 
  runs in my collection for many 
                                                                                                                                                                                    years and was able to see the differences. 
  The Greenberg's Athearn HO train 
                                                                                                                                                                                    guide, came out after I found these, is a 
  very good reference book for all 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Athearn but includes these engines. At 
  the end of these three marketed items 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I want to address the first run 
  prototype, never sold, supposed to all have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    been scraped Pacifics as a 
  special item. I don't want to bring up any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    written facts plus other new or 
  unknown facts about this so as not to cloud 
                                                                                                                                                                                    the issue about the marketed 
  Pacific's .

                                                                                                                                                                                    These pictures are of the first version available for the 
  pubic to buy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    All the versions were patterned after the same real engine 
  and all had the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    same tender.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hopefully using all the pictures you 
  will see what will become 
                                                                                                                                                                                    different in each run. I will attempt to point 
  out major differences without 
                                                                                                                                                                                    taking the engines apart. There will be some 
  smaller detail differences but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    they can be found in Greenberg's Athearn 
  book.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Main differences of this run are: Plastic Drivers, Brass gears 
  are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    used and attached to the last set of drivers, 1st and second drivers 
  are in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    empty housings, entire electrical pick up from tender as two 
  different 
                                                                                                                                                                                    wires from two different places run from tender to engine (sorry 
  blurry 
                                                                                                                                                                                    picture of that). From my info this run was 1960.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hope the 
  break down of each run useful and interesting. Later 
                                                                                                                                                                                    second version that 
  Athearn marketed.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H


                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9757
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
The set shows a Mantua Pacific...  The separate sale loco is a
Fleishman Pacific...  They are in a Athearn advertisement but they are
not even close to the actual Athearn Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in Va.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chris B wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don, I'm going to take Jim up on his offer to let anyone put two
cents of data in.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    HOSeeker does show pg 4 of the 1958 Athearn catalog with a Hi-F
Pacific kit, RTR engine, and in a train set.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Don
Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Sent: Tuesday, April
14, 2009 7:09:02 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Subject: Re:
[vintageHO] Early 60's Athearn Pacifics
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    So when was the first Athearn Pacific actually sold? I keep seeing
"1960" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
mentioned, yet Athearn ads showed it as early as 1958. (I'm looking at
page 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
58 in the September 1958 MR as I type this).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(Of course ads of that era also showed a 2 bay hopper which I've never
seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
as being an actual Athearn model either)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou
ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Cc: <lennard@etex.
net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:32 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Early 60's Athearn Pacifics [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I am sending the first pictures that will be 3 different segments 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
to show the three different versions of early Athearn Pacific's that
were 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
MARKETED and sold to the public . Each segment will deal only with one
run 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
at a time. I'm breaking it into segments so facts are kept straight for
each 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with time between to digest the data. There will be no mention of
railroad 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
names that Athearn used except to say all were factory painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Luckily I had these different runs in my collection for many 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
years and was able to see the differences. The Greenberg's Athearn HO
train 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
guide, came out after I found these, is a very good reference book for
all 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Athearn but includes these engines. At the end of these three marketed
items 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I want to address the first run prototype, never sold, supposed to all
have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
been scraped Pacifics as a special item. I don't want to bring up any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
written facts plus other new or unknown facts about this so as not to
cloud 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the issue about the marketed Pacific's .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
These pictures are of the first version available for the pubic to buy.
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
All the versions were patterned after the same real engine and all had
the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
same tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hopefully using all the pictures you will see what will become 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
different in each run. I will attempt to point out major differences
without 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
taking the engines apart. There will be some smaller detail differences
but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
they can be found in Greenberg's Athearn book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Main differences of this run are: Plastic Drivers, Brass gears are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
used and attached to the last set of drivers, 1st and second drivers
are in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
empty housings, entire electrical pick up from tender as two different 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
wires from two different places run from tender to engine (sorry blurry
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
picture of that). From my info this run was 1960.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hope the break down of each run useful and interesting. Later 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
second version that Athearn marketed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9758
						From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm going to jump in here with something that blew my mind recently concerning the HI F Athearn Pacifics, that defies everything else that I have ever heard or read about them. I too have all three versions of the regular production models, with one of them being the last one produced, with the pick up through the drivers. I modified it ( GASP! ) by adding one of the earlier tenders with pickup through the trucks, and it runs and looks excellent ! Anyway... at a Train Show in Southern California around last November, I was sitting at a booth with a well respected modeler, and an elderly man came up to him and started asking whether or not he had this or that. My friend apparently knew him as a collector, and since we had just been talking about Athearn Pacifics... he asked if he had ever seen one of the Hi F examples. He claimed to have better than that ! He claimed to actually have in his possesion one of the original prototypes. We asked him to describe it, and this is what he told us: Despite the fact that many people tend to believe that it was supposed to be driven by the tender, using the drum like axles in a fashion similar to other Hi F engines, this was done simply so that the wheels could be insulated to pick up power from the track. Note that the earliest version of the regular production examples are set up this way. The motor was mounted in the cab, as it later was as well, with a long shaft extending towards the front of the engine. The bands were attached to the front and rear sets of drivers only. Note the drums at the first and last driver locations, with the open bottom in earlier attachments. It was a simple set up, and he claimed to have this piece at home. He also claimed that it had been given to him by Mr. Athearn himself many years ago. We asked him if he could bring it back to the show so that we could examine it, but neither he nor the Locomotive ever reappeared. One additional note about the three different production versions..


.. the earliest example had a solid frame... where as the later versions had a split frame with the two sides separated by plastic plates and grommets for the screws.
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    







                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9759
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        I really appreciate you input as 
I do from everyone. I expected a lot of Emails hopefully both ways. I 
really want to add it all together. Although there might have been advanced ads 
in 1958, they were for the ill conceived Pacific that never came about. Yet all 
these with any attached information might be helpful. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
The 1960 date I used with my pictures was for the 2nd run or version that 
was the first sold to the public.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:12 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn's Ist 
  flawed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I never saw a picture that gave any details on any of the drives for any 
  of the Pacifics by Athearn.  I did see a picture at some point.  It 
  did seem that we waited forever but it was probably more like 2 to 3 
  years.  I received my first ones after mid-year in 1962 after seeing one 
  run that was owned by the hobby shop owner I used to work for.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don in 
  VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =

                                                                                                                                                                                    jim 
  heckard wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    I know it's a while ago but if you can find it, 
    it would be helpful especially as to what it said or showed if it 
    was a pre production notice. While not saying it was an advance notice 
    ad of what was to be I still would love to see the item . Did it have a 
    picture that showed the Hi-F RBD or just a picture of an Athearn Pacific 
    stating it would be RBD. Thanks for your response. It is very 
    appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
      Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
      Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: 
      Re: [vintageHO] Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Ref. Question 3...  It was either advertised or described in 
      pre-production information as Hi-F drive.  I distinctly remember 
      reading that information.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Staton in 
      Virginia
                                                                                                                                                                                    ============ ========= ========= ========= ========

                                                                                                                                                                                    jim 
      heckard wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                              I had said 
        after I finished sending information / pictures about the marketed early 
        (around 1960) Athearn Pacifics I would like to start a discussion about 
        what has been written about the earliest protoype that was 
        scratched.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                              Let me 
        preface this that I greatly respect the resource and the reference that 
        both the Greenberg Athearn and Lionel Guides provide. A 
        large group of avid vintage collectors with a great amount of HO 
        knowledge got together to provide information for others, including me, 
        down the road.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                             
        However being printed around 1986 has anything changed that is now 
        known about that first Athearn Pacific "fiasco" that was reported to be 
        Hi-F rubber band drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                             I have been in 
        love with HO and it's history for 50 years. I have been part of a 
        different circle of vintage collectors who were not contributors to 
        either or any Greenberg book even though I know some of the 
        contributors. Over the years my "inner circle" of friends have come up 
        with things that have changed the beliefs some others have held. A lot 
        deals with newly discovered items and changes to the written 
        word.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            
        I intend now to pose a number of questions pertaining to what 
        has been written, what people have heard or what you believe different 
        about this ONE ITEM that was never sold.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            I am especially 
        hoping my dear friend Ray F W gets involved. He has vast 
        knowledge on many subjects, is an avid and well respected Athearn 
        collector and was a major contributor to The Greenberg Athearn Guide. 
        While we haven't always agreed we have always managed to discuss what we 
        believe to be the facts. Because of that we have agreed on some points 
        especially Varney (a favorite for both of us) and A&S casting and 
        it's products. We have been able to share facts that changed both our 
        thinking a little and come to an agreement. I really want Ray F W 
        to be a Devil's Advocate and read what I will write, match that to facts 
        he knows.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            
        That doesn't mean anyone else is less important.You might have one fact 
        that you feel is insignificant but might be important to tie everything 
        together. With all that said PLEASE all respond ,including Ray F W to 
        these questions concerning ONLY the Athearn Pacific (from around1960) 
        that didn't work out and never was sold. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                         I am a firm 
        believer of a picture, or item in hand, is worth a thousand 
        words.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     Question 
        1   .    Was that first failed prototype 
        Hi-F rubber band drive as seems to be written or was it an "O' ring or a 
        coiled spring drive since the Athearn designers when asked about 
        the first Pacific they specifically stated it was "Belt 
        Drive"  ? (Please read question 4)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Question 
        2          Have you or 
        anyone that you know had, held, or seen this prototype ? Seen any 
        pictures since never sold or , as far as this item was never 
        advertised.   ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Question 
        3         Where did the 
        information come from that it was in effect Hi-F rubber band drive 
        ?     Was it just supplied to someone and by 
        whom  ?  Remember even in interviews between Irv Athearn and 
        the main writer of the Athearn guide it was mentioned that Irv Athearn 
        would "circumvent" questions he didn't want to answer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Question 
        4          Do you feel that 
        there is a distinction between rubber band drive (Hi-F) and belt drive 
        or is it semantics at play? To me a belt drive is pulleys using an 
        O ring or coil spring. I specifically cite these type belt drives for a 
        reason that I will write and show  after I receive some 
        answers to these questions.  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                           
        Now don't everybody pull your guns out "To shoot the messenger". 
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9760
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don, I'm no expert, but I believe it's been fairly common over the entire history of US model railroad manufacture when new models are being introduced or advertised for the first time to use photos of scratchbuilt models or other mfgrs models, even of different guages, when a photo of the new item is not yet available.  IIRC, Lionel, AF, and even a few scale mfgrs have been called on this practice, before and after WWII.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Athearn advertising a Pacific in their 1958 catalog as a Hi-F powered engine was the two cents offerred.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    From what I've learned in this discussion, it's not at all surprising there was no actual model available for catalog photo purposes.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:57:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Early 60's Athearn Pacifics

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The set shows a Mantua Pacific...  The separate sale loco is a Fleishman Pacific...  They are in a Athearn advertisement but they are not even close to the actual Athearn Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don in Va.
                                                                                                                                                                                    ============ ========= ========= ========= =========
                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B wrote: 

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don, I'm going to take Jim up on his offer to let anyone put two cents of data in.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    HOSeeker does show pg 4 of the 1958 Athearn catalog with a Hi-F Pacific kit, RTR engine, and in a train set.
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:09:02 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Early 60's Athearn Pacifics

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    So when was the first Athearn Pacific actually sold? I keep seeing "1960" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    mentioned, yet Athearn ads showed it as early as 1958. (I'm looking at page 
                                                                                                                                                                                    58 in the September 1958 MR as I type this).

                                                                                                                                                                                    (Of course ads of that era also showed a 2 bay hopper which I've never seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    as being an actual Athearn model either)

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: <lennard@etex. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:32 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Early 60's Athearn Pacifics [5 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am sending the first pictures that will be 3 different segments 
                                                                                                                                                                                    to show the three different versions of early Athearn Pacific's that were 
                                                                                                                                                                                    MARKETED and sold to the public . Each segment will deal only with one run 
                                                                                                                                                                                    at a time. I'm
 breaking it into segments so facts are kept straight for each 
                                                                                                                                                                                    with time between to digest the data. There will be no mention of railroad 
                                                                                                                                                                                    names that Athearn used except to say all were factory painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Luckily I had these different runs in my collection for many 
                                                                                                                                                                                    years and was able to see the differences. The Greenberg's Athearn HO train 
                                                                                                                                                                                    guide, came out after I found these, is a very good reference book for all 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Athearn but includes these engines. At the end of these three marketed items 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I want to address the first run prototype, never sold, supposed to all have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    been scraped Pacifics as a special item. I don't want to bring up any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    written facts plus other new or unknown facts about this so as not to cloud 
                                                                                                                                                                                    the issue about the marketed Pacific's .

                                                                                                                                                                                    These pictures are of the first version available for the pubic to buy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    All the versions were patterned after the same real engine and all had the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    same
 tender.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hopefully using all the pictures you will see what will become 
                                                                                                                                                                                    different in each run. I will attempt to point out major differences without 
                                                                                                                                                                                    taking the engines apart. There will be some smaller detail differences but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    they can be found in Greenberg's Athearn book.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Main differences of this run are: Plastic Drivers, Brass gears are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    used and attached to the last set of drivers, 1st and second drivers are in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    empty housings, entire electrical pick up from tender as two different 
                                                                                                                                                                                    wires from two different places run from tender to engine (sorry blurry 
                                                                                                                                                                                    picture of that). From my info this run was 1960.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hope the break down of each run useful and interesting. Later 
                                                                                                                                                                                    second version that Athearn marketed.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H



                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9761
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Mr. Lengal,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I very much 
appreciate this email. I definitely will print this out. I 
already "had heard" some of the cancelled prototypes (notice I 
added an S because I believe more then one design) ran out the door instead 
of being scraped. The interesting part is that this person described something 
that I had " heard". Contrary to what has been written or stated 
the Athearn RBD was NOT tender driven and that doesn't mean there was not a mock 
up like this. I believed all along that the heavy axles were for total tender 
pick up and not for RBD in the tender. I thought a smoke screen was set up 
either by Irv Ahearn or Athearn employees (engineers, advertisement men, etc ) 
for what ever reason. I honestly felt  that there might have been 
prototype drawings at first of RBD in the tender, RBD in the engine and a 
completely different "belt driven engine or mock ups of each as they searched 
for success.  This would explain the vast delay in first ads 
stating RBD, and problems they had with numerous designs, much how 
they kept changing the three types that were sold to customers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            Again 
everything has to be put together, try to make sense of it all and hopefully 
find the entire truth. Each bit of info taken like a grain of salt. That will be 
hard. I knew this wouldn't be easy.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H    .  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:19 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn's Ist 
  flawed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm going to jump in 
  here with something that blew my mind recently concerning the HI F Athearn 
  Pacifics, that defies everything else that I have ever heard or read about 
  them. I too have all three versions of the regular production models, with one 
  of them being the last one produced, with the pick up through the drivers. I 
  modified it ( GASP! ) by adding one of the earlier tenders with pickup through 
  the trucks, and it runs and looks excellent ! Anyway... at a Train Show in 
  Southern California around last November, I was sitting at a booth with a well 
  respected modeler, and an elderly man came up to him and started asking 
  whether or not he had this or that. My friend apparently knew him as a 
  collector, and since we had just been talking about Athearn Pacifics... he 
  asked if he had ever seen one of the Hi F examples. He claimed to have better 
  than that ! He claimed to actually have in his possesion one of the original 
  prototypes. We asked him to describe it, and this is what he told us: Despite 
  the fact that many people tend to believe that it was supposed to be driven by 
  the tender, using the drum like axles in a fashion similar to other Hi F 
  engines, this was done simply so that the wheels could be insulated to pick up 
  power from the track. Note that the earliest version of the regular production 
  examples are set up this way. The motor was mounted in the cab, as it later 
  was as well, with a long shaft extending towards the front of the engine. The 
  bands were attached to the front and rear sets of drivers only. Note the drums 
  at the first and last driver locations, with the open bottom in earlier 
  attachments. It was a simple set up, and he claimed to have this piece at 
  home. He also claimed that it had been given to him by Mr. Athearn himself 
  many years ago. We asked him if he could bring it back to the show so that we 
  could examine it, but neither he nor the Locomotive ever reappeared. One 
  additional note about the three different production versions.. .. the 
  earliest example had a solid frame... where as the later versions had a split 
  frame with the two sides separated by plastic plates and grommets for the 
  screws.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9762
						From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Ist flawed Pacific.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    Okay, I was wrong about the locations of the Drivers, etc.. BUT... I went out to the garage and pulled out my box of extra Athearn Pacific parts. I dug out one of the early frames, and tried to see if it could have been used for a Hi F type of drive. It didn't take too long until I realized that at the space where the motor would mount, another type of similar motor could be mounted in the spaces provided. Look at the pics that I have attached and it is pretty evident that this first version could easily have been used as  a Hi F version of a powered Loco with pickup provided by the tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    







                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9763
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Early 60's Athearn Pacifics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    More from HOSeeker Athearn catalogs...again, I'm not the one to identify the pictured engines, but fwiw, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    in 1959 the catalog shows a Pacific without describing the drive, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    while the 1960, 61, and 62 catalogs describe a "gear-driven" engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:07:36 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Early 60's Athearn Pacifics

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     I  appreciate your input. Worth more then two cents. Yet still  a picture, not showing a drive, of a proposed item that NEVER came out but I will add it to a pile of information I am gathering. I just sent an Email of my thoughts about an advanced ad not being trusted but this ad would back Don's 1958 date.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Chris B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Early 60's Athearn Pacifics [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don, I'm going to take Jim up on his offer to let anyone put two cents of data in.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    HOSeeker does show pg 4 of the 1958 Athearn catalog with a Hi-F Pacific kit, RTR engine, and in a train set.
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 7:09:02 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Early 60's Athearn Pacifics

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    So when was the first Athearn Pacific actually sold? I keep seeing "1960" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    mentioned, yet Athearn ads showed it as early as 1958. (I'm looking at page 
                                                                                                                                                                                    58 in the September 1958 MR as I type this).

                                                                                                                                                                                    (Of course ads of that era also showed a 2 bay hopper which I've never seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    as being an actual Athearn model either)

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: <lennard@etex. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:32 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Early 60's Athearn Pacifics [5 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am sending the first pictures that will be 3 different segments 
                                                                                                                                                                                    to show the three different versions of early Athearn Pacific's that were 
                                                                                                                                                                                    MARKETED and sold to the public . Each segment will deal only with one run 
                                                                                                                                                                                    at a time. I'm
 breaking it into segments so facts are kept straight for each 
                                                                                                                                                                                    with time between to digest the data. There will be no mention of railroad 
                                                                                                                                                                                    names that Athearn used except to say all were factory painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Luckily I had these different runs in my collection for many 
                                                                                                                                                                                    years and was able to see the differences. The Greenberg's Athearn HO train 
                                                                                                                                                                                    guide, came out after I found these, is a very good reference book for all 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Athearn but includes these engines. At the end of these three marketed items 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I want to address the first run prototype, never sold, supposed to all have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    been scraped Pacifics as a special item. I don't want to bring up any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    written facts plus other new or unknown facts about this so as not to cloud 
                                                                                                                                                                                    the issue about the marketed Pacific's .

                                                                                                                                                                                    These pictures are of the first version available for the pubic to buy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    All the versions were patterned after the same real engine and all had the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    same
 tender.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hopefully using all the pictures you will see what will become 
                                                                                                                                                                                    different in each run. I will attempt to point out major differences without 
                                                                                                                                                                                    taking the engines apart. There will be some smaller detail differences but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    they can be found in Greenberg's Athearn book.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Main differences of this run are: Plastic Drivers, Brass gears are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    used and attached to the last set of drivers, 1st and second drivers are in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    empty housings, entire electrical pick up from tender as two different 
                                                                                                                                                                                    wires from two different places run from tender to engine (sorry blurry 
                                                                                                                                                                                    picture of that). From my info this run was 1960.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hope the break down of each run useful and interesting. Later 
                                                                                                                                                                                    second version that Athearn marketed.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9764
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                          I would like to 
interject another detail into the early Athearn Pacific discussion about 
exactly what the failed prototype was (if it was only one type) as it pertains 
to sentences in the Greenberg Athearn guide and why some things to me, 
don't mesh. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           The end of the 
first complete paragraph at the top page 37 kind of contradicts itself 
where it mentions the proposed Hi-F Pacific. Lets say for the sake of 
argument it was a Hi-F tender drive prototype as the book 
mentions " Athearn encountered major difficulties with the preproduction samples 
that were built with Hi-F drive in the tender". A couple of sentences 
lower it goes on to talk about that these samples were built with well 
detailed, injection molded DRIVE wheels and that  they caused problems and 
would slip after picking debris from the track. (The number 
"23  follows this and on the bottom of the 
page cites 23  as an INTERVIEW,ibid.) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            IF 
the prototype was in fact Hi-F tender driven what would it matter if the 
drivers on the engine didn't work right because the engine would 
be a dummy  ????    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          These are not my 
words but given to someone in an interview. Correct me if I have stated 
this wrong or if I am reading it wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9765
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H. All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A facinating story unfolding here, especially to one with only a sandwich bag of well used, last production phase parts.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The only information presented by someone so far that I might contest is the theory that Athearn engineered some samples to confuse the oppositiom.  By most accouts, Irv Athearn was cheap, does not strike me as the sort of businessman to spend any money on a ruse.  And although Athearn was not quite the powerhouse he would become, he was well on his way, already #1.  Besides, who was he trying to fool?  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gordon Varney was burned out and retired, and Sol Kramer was economizing at Varney by simplifying the line and positioning them for a (successful) run at the low price field; Clarence Menteer of MDC frequently turned to Athearn for help, no threat there.  Mantua and Penn Line were well established in their ways, and not likely to change their successful formula and if Bernie Paul was with Rivarossi by then, Rivarossi was doing work their work in a European way and not looking to the US for engineering epertise (in fact, much the opposite as Spanagel tells us that Alessandro Rossi was brought over to help Revell engineering in an unsuccessful effort.  Lionel or Flyer? Athearn understood the scale model railroading market much better than the did.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
So my long way of saying that I think the varous early Pacifics were Athearn's honest attempt at developing their Pacific in a new economical way, not a ruse to confuse competitors. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I look forward to reading and seeing the rest of your findings when you are ready with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9766
						From: Ray Marinaccio
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- On Wed, 4/15/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2009, 2:09 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> injection molded DRIVE wheels and that  they caused problems
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and would slip after picking debris from the track. >                                                            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    What if (slip) actually means slide? As in the plastic drivers sliding on the rails.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 Then maybe an unsuccessful attempt to put the motor in the loco was made using the Hi-F drive, explaining the way the (normal) Hi-F motor mounts in the loco. ????
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9767
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The design of a powered tender pushing a free-rolling loco has been common 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with British models.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Ray Marinaccio" <raymarinaccio@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 9:01 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9768
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    And, with the TYCO Chattanooga Choo-Choo.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > The design of a powered tender pushing a free-rolling loco has been common 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> with British models.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "Ray Marinaccio" <raymarinaccio@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 9:01 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9769
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W, Ray M, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              I will  
explain the pictures I sent shortly. To send them I only know how to create 
an entire new Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          This attempt to put 
information together is only to get at the truth as to the type or 
possible TYPES of prototype Athearn tried  to develop a good working 
Pacific.  I fully agree Athearn was a frugal man and didn't like to waste 
money. I think this whole fiasco was Athearn (be it Mr. or 
Athearn the company and it's people) had put a lot of money out in pre 
advance advertisement, had already had packaging material ready (although with 
misprints on them which I already pointed out in a separate Email) and he had a 
lot on the line as Lionel was involved who also had catalogs showing the 
engine that wasn't available (and never would be). I hope you just read the 
Email that I sent this morning about information gleaned from the Greenberg 
Athearn Guide. As I said the information was taken from an INTERVIEW ( 
Athearn or Athearn the company. I'm not sure). I say it's very contradictory as 
it mentions trouble with the Hi-F rubber band drive IN THE TENDER". It then goes 
on to talk about highly detailed plastic DRIVERS that sounds like they lost 
their traction on the rails. Unless something is missing or I don't understand 
it this paragraph is talking about TWO different prototypes ( one with 
tender drive , one with the more normal drive in the engine hence the 
slipping drivers mentioned, neither of which worked.) It was not an effort 
to confuse what was actually going on but Athearn's (Mr. or he company)  
attempt to get something out on the market. Again the above information was told 
to someone in an interview by Athearn (Mr. and or Company people). NOT MY 
WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      With that said I am proposing a POSSIBLE 3rd 
prototype ( assuming there was more then one and information above seems to 
suggest it) that was tried and didn't work well and was never brought out. That 
is where the pictures attached come into play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        These pictures are of a 
Lionel 2-4-2 steam engine that was marketed. I would like you  to 
notice the drive called a "Belt Drive. As I get into this remember Athearn 
designers in an interview use the words "belt drive" for their prototype failed 
Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       The story I have about this engine 
goes back to Athearn. It was exactly around the time Athearn was struggling to 
get a working Hi-F RBD Pacific engine to work as he promised.  The 
information I have from a number of different sources about this particular 
engine is that it was a collaboration ( just like the E-33 electric ) between 
Athearn and Lionel. The first PROTOTYPE / MOCK UP had  an Athearn 
motor for drive and used this skinny "O"ring drive with pulleys on a shaft 
geared to the drivers  ( a rubber band would provide 
terrible performance for traction in this type of  set up) This to me 
is a "band driven" engine. This engine was in design mode at the same time 
Athearn was having his own problem, 1958-1960. This engine also had very 
poor performance. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             I have to look at 
this plus other information I have put out and people send along 
with  the "possibility" that some might have a sample and come to a 
conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
Unless someone can come out with more concrete information or pictures to change 
my way of thinking I have started to believe there had to be a couple of 
prototype that Athearn tried.  (1) A  Hi-F rubber band 
drive in the tender as stated in an interview. (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive 
in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an 
interview  (3). a "Band Drive" much like this Lionel engine that was a 
collaboration with Athearn at the same time he was having trouble with is 
Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             I 
leave the decision up to the jury, unless anyone can produce solid evidence 
otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9770
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Glenn J.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
You just brought to mind the British OOO scale Lone Star locomotives from the early 1960's, which had an 0-8-0 steam engine with powered tender pushing a free rolling locomotive. And Lone Star's system used Rubber Band Drive, too!  Their F-7 diesels used the same RBD and opening one up, it looks like a miniature Athearn unit!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The design of a powered tender pushing a free-rolling loco has been common 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> with British models.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "Ray Marinaccio" <raymarinaccio@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 9:01 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9771
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                               I agree 
there are successful tender driven engines. Add Pemco to it. HOWEVER the 
information I seek and the questions I pose only deal with one, a failed 
attempt by Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 1:30 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: early Athearn 
  Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    And, with the TYCO Chattanooga Choo-Choo.

                                                                                                                                                                                    > The design of a 
  powered tender pushing a free-rolling loco has been common 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > with 
  British models.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message 
  ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: "Ray Marinaccio" <raymarinaccio@ ...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 9:01 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] early 
  Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9772
						From: wildwoodjct
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Fleischmann,  Athearn Pacific,  Mantua kits--1950s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Just to follow up on the Athearn Pacific discussion, tender drive has been common in Fleischmann HO steam. I don't own any Fleischmann but looking at the catalogs over the years, the steamers were described as 'tender drive'. Fleischmann marketed some US prototype HO in the  1950s, but it was really European style cars with markings such as Northern Pacific! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Has anybody come across Mantua freight car kits from the 1950s at train shows recently? I have always been on the lookout for them but have never seen them. They are metal and plastic with the unique Mantua loop couplers.--John
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9773
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann,  Athearn Pacific,  Mantua kits--1950s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    You need to be careful of translation difficulties.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sometimes a "tender drive" can refer to motor in tender, driveshaft through back of cab to gearbox (I have a Rivarossi like that).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Just to follow up on the Athearn Pacific discussion, tender drive has been common in Fleischmann HO steam. I don't own any Fleischmann but looking at the catalogs over the years, the steamers were described as 'tender drive'. Fleischmann marketed some US prototype HO in the  1950s, but it was really European style cars with markings such as Northern Pacific! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Has anybody come across Mantua freight car kits from the 1950s at train shows recently? I have always been on the lookout for them but have never seen them. They are metal and plastic with the unique Mantua loop couplers.--John
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9774
						From: johnbarth@verizon.net
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann,  Athearn Pacific,  Mantua kits--1950s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
Ich kann Deutsch sprechen! I just took a look at a Fleischmann catalog.
the steamers are typically described as 'motor housed in tender' and
'all 6 tender wheels powered'. actually you can even see the gears on
the inside of the tender wheels sometimes. Fleischmann could make an
interesting discussion of vintage HO. I occasionally see the old
Fleischmann at train shows but in poor condition. --John


                                                                                                                                                                                    Apr 15, 2009 01:50:52 PM, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    













                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

            

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    You need to be careful of translation difficulties.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sometimes a "tender drive" can refer to motor in tender, driveshaft through back of cab to gearbox (I have a Rivarossi like that).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Just to follow up on the Athearn Pacific discussion, tender drive has been common in Fleischmann HO steam. I don't own any Fleischmann but looking at the catalogs over the years, the steamers were described as 'tender drive'. Fleischmann marketed some US prototype HO in the  1950s, but it was really European style cars with markings such as Northern Pacific! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Has anybody come across Mantua freight car kits from the 1950s at train shows recently? I have always been on the lookout for them but have never seen them. They are metal and plastic with the unique Mantua loop couplers.--John
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


    
                                                                                                                                                                                    


    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

	
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9775
						From: trainliker
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann,  Athearn Pacific,  Mantua kits--1950s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I looked in PFM catalogs a little regarding the United 4-4-0 Reno and early V&T 4-6-0 with motors in the tenders but drive in the engine.  And they were inconsistent.  The first example could be especially misleading.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
12th edition [for V&T 4-4-0]:  "Tender Driven by Pittman DC-195A motor"
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
10th edition [for V&T 4-4-0]:  "DC-195 Motor in the tender."
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
7th edition [for V&T 4-4-0]:  "Pittman DC-195 motor"  [no mention of tender]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
5th edition [for V&T 4-4-0]:  "Flex drives from tenders thru universals." [yes, "tenders" is plural]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
3rd edition: [for V&T 4-6-0]:  "Flex-drive from tender thru beryllium copper universal."
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
2nd edition [for V&T 4-6-0]  "DC-295 motor operates from the tender through flex drive" ["through" spelled out in this example]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
By the 6th edition, for the V&T 4-6-0, the motor was moved from the tender and says "now powered by cab-mounted Pittman DC-62X motor."
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You need to be careful of translation difficulties.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sometimes a "tender drive" can refer to motor in tender, driveshaft through back of cab to gearbox (I have a Rivarossi like that).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Just to follow up on the Athearn Pacific discussion, tender drive has been common in Fleischmann HO steam. I don't own any Fleischmann but looking at the catalogs over the years, the steamers were described as 'tender drive'. Fleischmann marketed some US prototype HO in the  1950s, but it was really European style cars with markings such as Northern Pacific! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Has anybody come across Mantua freight car kits from the 1950s at train shows recently? I have always been on the lookout for them but have never seen them. They are metal and plastic with the unique Mantua loop couplers.--John
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9776
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, I don't have any new real finds to offer on the early Athearn Pacific drive question, but I did do a broad search among Google's archives of posted group messages from a wide range of model railroad groups.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I found several interesting but unsubstantiated anecdotes and references to real or hearsay facts about the early Hi-f, or tender-driven Pacifics.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    One message did relate a story of how a teenager came in and showed off the first rubber band drive that he had developed that supposedly Irf Athearn bought.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    any interest?
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 2:08:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: early Athearn Pacific

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               I agree there are successful tender driven engines. Add Pemco to it. HOWEVER the information I seek and the questions I pose only deal with one, a failed attempt by Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 1:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    And, with the TYCO Chattanooga Choo-Choo.

                                                                                                                                                                                    > The design of a powered tender pushing a free-rolling loco has been common 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > with British models.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: "Ray Marinaccio" <raymarinaccio@ ...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 9:01 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9777
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for your 
reply. I am interested in the unsubstantiated story. Although the proof would be 
in the pudding (someone telling the story produced what they say to back it 
up). I truly believe that some of the supposed scraped engines 
"ran out the door". But just like some one having a Masters painting gotten 
illegally  hide it from view. Anyone having a prototype of this Athearn 
engine would have to be very careful. I have been told stories myself, but 
no real thing shown. Some of these stories told might have some truth to 
them
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          The story about the 
young person coming in to Athearn with the original rubber band drive is 
true as far as I know. Athearn or his team did not design the RBD. It was bought 
from this young person after they found it cheap to make and work so 
well.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          If it's not a big 
problem ,even if they are true stories or not,I would appreciate them to add to 
all the ads people are telling me about. you can send them direct to me  
 jimheck@....
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           Appreciate the 
time you are spending.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 5:33 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: early 
  Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, I don't have any new real finds to offer on the early Athearn 
  Pacific drive question, but I did do a broad search among Google's archives of 
  posted group messages from a wide range of model railroad groups.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I found several interesting but unsubstantiated anecdotes and 
  references to real or hearsay facts about the early Hi-f, or 
  tender-driven Pacifics.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    One message did relate a story of how a teenager came in and showed off 
  the first rubber band drive that he had developed that supposedly Irf Athearn 
  bought.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    any interest?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  From: jim heckard 
  <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 2:08:19 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  Re: early Athearn Pacific

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               I agree 
  there are successful tender driven engines. Add Pemco to it. HOWEVER the 
  information I seek and the questions I pose only deal with one, a failed 
  attempt by Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 1:30 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: early Athearn 
    Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    And, with the TYCO Chattanooga Choo-Choo.

                                                                                                                                                                                    > The design of a 
    powered tender pushing a free-rolling loco has been common 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > with 
    British models.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message 
    ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: "Ray Marinaccio" <raymarinaccio@ ...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: 
    <vintageHO@yahoogrou 
    ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 9:01 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >


                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9778
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
OK, as I understand it, you believe there to be three (or at least three) pre-geared, pre-production designs for the Pacific: (1) A completely self-contained Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender with free rolling locomotive chassis, (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview and (3) a "O Ring Drive" much like the Lionel engine that you showed in the attachment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I am using the term "O Ring Drive" as that is what it is, using "belt" vs. rubber "bands" confuses me as folks often interchange the terms. However the use of the word "belt" may have also have referred to an "O Ring Drive" back then, too, as was used by Lionel, that is what you are considering version # 3.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
So we should be looking for any references, or models, that will support (or run counter to your theories). I will start searching for clues later tonight.  But first, I have a meeting to go to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.  (BTW, for those who do not know it, the story of how the young man, Robert Smith, came to Athearn with his patented rubber band drive is on page 35 of the Mallerich Athearn book.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
   
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W, Ray M, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           I will  explain the pictures I sent shortly. To send them I only know how to create an entire new Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       This attempt to put information together is only to get at the truth as to the type or possible TYPES of prototype Athearn tried  to develop a good working Pacific.  I fully agree Athearn was a frugal man and didn't like to waste money. I think this whole fiasco was Athearn (be it Mr. or Athearn the company and it's people) had put a lot of money out in pre advance advertisement, had already had packaging material ready (although with misprints on them which I already pointed out in a separate Email) and he had a lot on the line as Lionel was involved who also had catalogs showing the engine that wasn't available (and never would be). I hope you just read the Email that I sent this morning about information gleaned from the Greenberg Athearn Guide. As I said the information was taken from an INTERVIEW ( Athearn or Athearn the company. I'm not sure). I say it's very contradictory as it mentions trouble with the Hi-F rubber band drive IN THE TENDER". It then goes on to talk about highly detailed plastic DRIVERS that sounds like they lost their traction on the rails. Unless something is missing or I don't understand it this paragraph is talking about TWO different prototypes ( one with tender drive , one with the more normal drive in the engine hence the slipping drivers mentioned, neither of which worked.) It was not an effort to confuse what was actually going on but Athearn's (Mr. or he company)  attempt to get something out on the market. Again the above information was told to someone in an interview by Athearn (Mr. and or Company people). NOT MY WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   With that said I am proposing a POSSIBLE 3rd prototype ( assuming there was more then one and information above seems to suggest it) that was tried and didn't work well and was never brought out. That is where the pictures attached come into play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     These pictures are of a Lionel 2-4-2 steam engine that was marketed. I would like you  to notice the drive called a "Belt Drive. As I get into this remember Athearn designers in an interview use the words "belt drive" for their prototype failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    The story I have about this engine goes back to Athearn. It was exactly around the time Athearn was struggling to get a working Hi-F RBD Pacific engine to work as he promised.  The information I have from a number of different sources about this particular engine is that it was a collaboration ( just like the E-33 electric ) between Athearn and Lionel. The first PROTOTYPE / MOCK UP had  an Athearn motor for drive and used this skinny "O"ring drive with pulleys on a shaft geared to the drivers  ( a rubber band would provide terrible performance for traction in this type of  set up) This to me is a "band driven" engine. This engine was in design mode at the same time Athearn was having his own problem, 1958-1960. This engine also had very poor performance. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          I have to look at this plus other information I have put out and people send along with  the "possibility" that some might have a sample and come to a conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          Unless someone can come out with more concrete information or pictures to change my way of thinking I have started to believe there had to be a couple of prototype that Athearn tried.  (1) A  Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender as stated in an interview. (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview  (3). a "Band Drive" much like this Lionel engine that was a collaboration with Athearn at the same time he was having trouble with is Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          I leave the decision up to the jury, unless anyone can produce solid evidence otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9779
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann,  Athearn Pacific,  Mantua kits--1950s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I think that describes the caution.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Depending on how it's written, 50 years later it can be confusing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I recall a General-type, in oh, 1954, or 1955.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
My friend's dad had it, unpowered.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
He worked up a motor in the tender to run a driveshaft.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Now, for all I know 55 years later, it was a kit that he finished except for the motor components and later added them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > I looked in PFM catalogs a little regarding the United 4-4-0 Reno and early V&T 4-6-0 with motors in the tenders but drive in the engine.  And they were inconsistent.  The first example could be especially misleading.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 12th edition [for V&T 4-4-0]:  "Tender Driven by Pittman DC-195A motor"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 10th edition [for V&T 4-4-0]:  "DC-195 Motor in the tender."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 7th edition [for V&T 4-4-0]:  "Pittman DC-195 motor"  [no mention of tender]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 5th edition [for V&T 4-4-0]:  "Flex drives from tenders thru universals." [yes, "tenders" is plural]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 3rd edition: [for V&T 4-6-0]:  "Flex-drive from tender thru beryllium copper universal."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 2nd edition [for V&T 4-6-0]  "DC-295 motor operates from the tender through flex drive" ["through" spelled out in this example]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> By the 6th edition, for the V&T 4-6-0, the motor was moved from the tender and says "now powered by cab-mounted Pittman DC-62X motor."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > You need to be careful of translation difficulties.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Sometimes a "tender drive" can refer to motor in tender, driveshaft through back of cab to gearbox (I have a Rivarossi like that).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Just to follow up on the Athearn Pacific discussion, tender drive has been common in Fleischmann HO steam. I don't own any Fleischmann but looking at the catalogs over the years, the steamers were described as 'tender drive'. Fleischmann marketed some US prototype HO in the  1950s, but it was really European style cars with markings such as Northern Pacific! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Has anybody come across Mantua freight car kits from the 1950s at train shows recently? I have always been on the lookout for them but have never seen them. They are metal and plastic with the unique Mantua loop couplers.--John
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9780
						From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO 
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
group.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  File        : /V List A-C Model Co., L-W Model Co. cars.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Description : List of A-C Models, then L-W Models items.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20A-C%20Model%20Co.%2C%20L-W%20Model%20Co.%20cars.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9781
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Attached photo test
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Added the updates
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009
7:56 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Attached
photo test
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck, While my limited time this past week allowed
for me only to post a few replies which seemed important in continuing threads
in discussion on a topic or two, I've been wanting to get back to you on your
fine job of drawing up and uploading the A-C/L-W Models spread sheet to the
files. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9782
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              As I have 
consistently said I am searching for the truth. What you wrote in the first 
paragraph (well stated) is what I feel could have been based on what other 
people, especially at Athearn, have said. I didn't write the words and why I ask 
the questions at the start.. Looking for input.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               I have 
just tried to point out what I read. Some of the wording could be the same 
thing like RBD  vs. Belt Drive. But the fact I pointed out, and 
as written in Greenberg's Athearn book, concerning an interview and the way 
it is written suggest to me that two different pre -geared, pre- production 
designs were tried for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               As for what 
became a standard belt drive style for later Lionel Ho is the story behind a 
collaboration between Athearn and Lionel at the same time as the failed 
Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                So yes 
I have been led to the beliefs you state so well. You're ability to put things 
down in less words is better then mine. Now I must seek to prove or disprove 
this with ads or write ups, Athearn books, stories and other types of 
information. That is why I wanted seek out any possible concrete evidence, 
either way, from what I present. A sample or birds eye view of one would be 
best.  Till then correct and tear apart where I have gone. I got to this 
point by what has been in print not my guessing . This is not a way to 
ruffle any feathers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:04 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early 
  Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H,

                                                                                                                                                                                    OK, as I understand it, you believe there to be three (or 
  at least three) pre-geared, pre-production designs for the Pacific: (1) A 
  completely self-contained Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender with free 
  rolling locomotive chassis, (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that 
  had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview and (3) a "O 
  Ring Drive" much like the Lionel engine that you showed in the 
  attachment.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am using the term "O Ring Drive" as that is what it is, 
  using "belt" vs. rubber "bands" confuses me as folks often interchange the 
  terms. However the use of the word "belt" may have also have referred to an "O 
  Ring Drive" back then, too, as was used by Lionel, that is what you are 
  considering version # 3.

                                                                                                                                                                                    So we should be looking for any references, or 
  models, that will support (or run counter to your theories). I will start 
  searching for clues later tonight. But first, I have a meeting to go 
  to...

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W. (BTW, for those who do not know it, the story of how the 
  young man, Robert Smith, came to Athearn with his patented rubber band drive 
  is on page 35 of the Mallerich Athearn book.)

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay W, Ray M, 
  All
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I will explain the pictures I sent shortly. To send them I only 
  know how to create an entire new Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > This attempt to put 
  information together is only to get at the truth as to the type or possible 
  TYPES of prototype Athearn tried to develop a good working Pacific. I fully 
  agree Athearn was a frugal man and didn't like to waste money. I think this 
  whole fiasco was Athearn (be it Mr. or Athearn the company and it's people) 
  had put a lot of money out in pre advance advertisement, had already had 
  packaging material ready (although with misprints on them which I already 
  pointed out in a separate Email) and he had a lot on the line as Lionel was 
  involved who also had catalogs showing the engine that wasn't available (and 
  never would be). I hope you just read the Email that I sent this morning about 
  information gleaned from the Greenberg Athearn Guide. As I said the 
  information was taken from an INTERVIEW ( Athearn or Athearn the company. I'm 
  not sure). I say it's very contradictory as it mentions trouble with the Hi-F 
  rubber band drive IN THE TENDER". It then goes on to talk about highly 
  detailed plastic DRIVERS that sounds like they lost their traction on the 
  rails. Unless something is missing or I don't understand it this paragraph is 
  talking about TWO different prototypes ( one with tender drive , one with the 
  more normal drive in the engine hence the slipping drivers mentioned, neither 
  of which worked.) It was not an effort to confuse what was actually going on 
  but Athearn's (Mr. or he company) attempt to get something out on the market. 
  Again the above information was told to someone in an interview by Athearn 
  (Mr. and or Company people). NOT MY WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > With that said I am 
  proposing a POSSIBLE 3rd prototype ( assuming there was more then one and 
  information above seems to suggest it) that was tried and didn't work well and 
  was never brought out. That is where the pictures attached come into 
  play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > These pictures are of a Lionel 2-4-2 steam engine that 
  was marketed. I would like you to notice the drive called a "Belt Drive. As I 
  get into this remember Athearn designers in an interview use the words "belt 
  drive" for their prototype failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The story I have 
  about this engine goes back to Athearn. It was exactly around the time Athearn 
  was struggling to get a working Hi-F RBD Pacific engine to work as he 
  promised. The information I have from a number of different sources about this 
  particular engine is that it was a collaboration ( just like the E-33 electric 
  ) between Athearn and Lionel. The first PROTOTYPE / MOCK UP had an Athearn 
  motor for drive and used this skinny "O"ring drive with pulleys on a shaft 
  geared to the drivers ( a rubber band would provide terrible performance for 
  traction in this type of set up) This to me is a "band driven" engine. This 
  engine was in design mode at the same time Athearn was having his own problem, 
  1958-1960. This engine also had very poor performance. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I 
  have to look at this plus other information I have put out and people send 
  along with the "possibility" that some might have a sample and come to a 
  conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Unless someone can come out with more concrete 
  information or pictures to change my way of thinking I have started to believe 
  there had to be a couple of prototype that Athearn tried. (1) A Hi-F rubber 
  band drive in the tender as stated in an interview. (2) a Hi-F rubber band 
  drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in 
  an interview (3). a "Band Drive" much like this Lionel engine that was a 
  collaboration with Athearn at the same time he was having trouble with is 
  Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I leave the decision up to the jury, unless anyone 
  can produce solid evidence otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9783
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I am puzzled as to why they would even try.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I had plenty of experience with HiF diseasemals in the 50-'s and 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Imagine, the slip we had with the band on the main shaft with small diameter wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Now, throw big passenger-type drivers into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The rubber bands must have had a life expectancy measured in minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Now, that said, and thinking about this........maybe I'm more off in the noggin than I want to admit, but I recall someone who had one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I actually THINK I held it, back in Southern California, probably 59 or early 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
What I distinctly recall was the royal pain it was to change the belts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
When I saw it, it was not running due to belt failure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The owner said (and for all I know, it was Colonel Bragg in North Anaheim/South Fullerton), you had to remove the boiler, motor, shaft, siderods, some kind of bottom cover, drivers, and hope you got it all back together correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
There was also a hobby shop on Brookhurst north of the Riverside Freeway, at the intersection with Orangethrope, nice guy in a wheelchair ran it, may have been him.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I had 2 of the Lil' Monsters (0-4-2T), and still have parts of one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Those were probably the bigest disappointement of any model railroad item I ever owned.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And, in all those years, I don't recall ever owning or even seeing the 0-6-0 with separate tender, unless I did and thought it was Lionel or maybe Revell.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           As I have consistently said I am searching for the truth. What you wrote in the first paragraph (well stated) is what I feel could have been based on what other people, especially at Athearn, have said. I didn't write the words and why I ask the questions at the start.. Looking for input.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            I have just tried to point out what I read. Some of the wording could be the same thing like RBD  vs. Belt Drive. But the fact I pointed out, and as written in Greenberg's Athearn book, concerning an interview and the way it is written suggest to me that two different pre -geared, pre- production designs were tried for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            As for what became a standard belt drive style for later Lionel Ho is the story behind a collaboration between Athearn and Lionel at the same time as the failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             So yes I have been led to the beliefs you state so well. You're ability to put things down in less words is better then mine. Now I must seek to prove or disprove this with ads or write ups, Athearn books, stories and other types of information. That is why I wanted seek out any possible concrete evidence, either way, from what I present. A sample or birds eye view of one would be best.  Till then correct and tear apart where I have gone. I got to this point by what has been in print not my guessing . This is not a way to ruffle any feathers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   OK, as I understand it, you believe there to be three (or at least three) pre-geared, pre-production designs for the Pacific: (1) A completely self-contained Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender with free rolling locomotive chassis, (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview and (3) a "O Ring Drive" much like the Lionel engine that you showed in the attachment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I am using the term "O Ring Drive" as that is what it is, using "belt" vs. rubber "bands" confuses me as folks often interchange the terms. However the use of the word "belt" may have also have referred to an "O Ring Drive" back then, too, as was used by Lionel, that is what you are considering version # 3.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   So we should be looking for any references, or models, that will support (or run counter to your theories). I will start searching for clues later tonight. But first, I have a meeting to go to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   W Jay W. (BTW, for those who do not know it, the story of how the young man, Robert Smith, came to Athearn with his patented rubber band drive is on page 35 of the Mallerich Athearn book.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > W Jay W, Ray M, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I will explain the pictures I sent shortly. To send them I only know how to create an entire new Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > This attempt to put information together is only to get at the truth as to the type or possible TYPES of prototype Athearn tried to develop a good working Pacific. I fully agree Athearn was a frugal man and didn't like to waste money. I think this whole fiasco was Athearn (be it Mr. or Athearn the company and it's people) had put a lot of money out in pre advance advertisement, had already had packaging material ready (although with misprints on them which I already pointed out in a separate Email) and he had a lot on the line as Lionel was involved who also had catalogs showing the engine that wasn't available (and never would be). I hope you just read the Email that I sent this morning about information gleaned from the Greenberg Athearn Guide. As I said the information was taken from an INTERVIEW ( Athearn or Athearn the company. I'm not sure). I say it's very contradictory as it mentions trouble with the Hi-F rubber band drive IN THE TENDER". It then goes on to talk about highly detailed plastic DRIVERS that sounds like they lost their traction on the rails. Unless something is missing or I don't understand it this paragraph is talking about TWO different prototypes ( one with tender drive , one with the more normal drive in the engine hence the slipping drivers mentioned, neither of which worked.) It was not an effort to confuse what was actually going on but Athearn's (Mr. or he company) attempt to get something out on the market. Again the above information was told to someone in an interview by Athearn (Mr. and or Company people). NOT MY WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > With that said I am proposing a POSSIBLE 3rd prototype ( assuming there was more then one and information above seems to suggest it) that was tried and didn't work well and was never brought out. That is where the pictures attached come into play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > These pictures are of a Lionel 2-4-2 steam engine that was marketed. I would like you to notice the drive called a "Belt Drive. As I get into this remember Athearn designers in an interview use the words "belt drive" for their prototype failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > The story I have about this engine goes back to Athearn. It was exactly around the time Athearn was struggling to get a working Hi-F RBD Pacific engine to work as he promised. The information I have from a number of different sources about this particular engine is that it was a collaboration ( just like the E-33 electric ) between Athearn and Lionel. The first PROTOTYPE / MOCK UP had an Athearn motor for drive and used this skinny "O"ring drive with pulleys on a shaft geared to the drivers ( a rubber band would provide terrible performance for traction in this type of set up) This to me is a "band driven" engine. This engine was in design mode at the same time Athearn was having his own problem, 1958-1960. This engine also had very poor performance. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I have to look at this plus other information I have put out and people send along with the "possibility" that some might have a sample and come to a conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Unless someone can come out with more concrete information or pictures to change my way of thinking I have started to believe there had to be a couple of prototype that Athearn tried. (1) A Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender as stated in an interview. (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview (3). a "Band Drive" much like this Lionel engine that was a collaboration with Athearn at the same time he was having trouble with is Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I leave the decision up to the jury, unless anyone can produce solid evidence otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9784
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                             
Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
Thanks for this reply. I will copy it. It describes very well how the Hi-F RBD 
would be set up if in the Engine and matches one other "story". 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:01 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early 
  Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I am puzzled as to why they would even try.
                                                                                                                                                                                    I had plenty of experience 
  with HiF diseasemals in the 50-'s and 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Imagine, the slip we had with 
  the band on the main shaft with small diameter wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Now, throw big 
  passenger-type drivers into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    The rubber bands must have had a life 
  expectancy measured in minutes.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Now, that said, and thinking about 
  this........ maybe I'm more off in the noggin than I want to admit, but I 
  recall someone who had one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    I actually THINK I held it, back in Southern 
  California, probably 59 or early 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    What I distinctly recall was the 
  royal pain it was to change the belts.

                                                                                                                                                                                    When I saw it, it was not 
  running due to belt failure.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The owner said (and for all I know, it was 
  Colonel Bragg in North Anaheim/South Fullerton), you had to remove the boiler, 
  motor, shaft, siderods, some kind of bottom cover, drivers, and hope you got 
  it all back together correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    There was also a hobby shop on Brookhurst 
  north of the Riverside Freeway, at the intersection with Orangethrope, nice 
  guy in a wheelchair ran it, may have been him.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I had 2 of the Lil' 
  Monsters (0-4-2T), and still have parts of one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Those were probably the 
  bigest disappointement of any model railroad item I ever owned.

                                                                                                                                                                                    And, in 
  all those years, I don't recall ever owning or even seeing the 0-6-0 with 
  separate tender, unless I did and thought it was Lionel or maybe 
  Revell.

                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As I have consistently said I am searching 
  for the truth. What you wrote in the first paragraph (well stated) is what I 
  feel could have been based on what other people, especially at Athearn, have 
  said. I didn't write the words and why I ask the questions at the start.. 
  Looking for input.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have just tried to point out what I read. Some of 
  the wording could be the same thing like RBD vs. Belt Drive. But the fact I 
  pointed out, and as written in Greenberg's Athearn book, concerning an 
  interview and the way it is written suggest to me that two different pre 
  -geared, pre- production designs were tried for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As for what 
  became a standard belt drive style for later Lionel Ho is the story behind a 
  collaboration between Athearn and Lionel at the same time as the failed 
  Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > So yes I have been led to the beliefs you state so well. 
  You're ability to put things down in less words is better then mine. Now I 
  must seek to prove or disprove this with ads or write ups, Athearn books, 
  stories and other types of information. That is why I wanted seek out any 
  possible concrete evidence, either way, from what I present. A sample or birds 
  eye view of one would be best. Till then correct and tear apart where I have 
  gone. I got to this point by what has been in print not my guessing . This is 
  not a way to ruffle any feathers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > OK, as I understand it, you believe there 
  to be three (or at least three) pre-geared, pre-production designs for the 
  Pacific: (1) A completely self-contained Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender 
  with free rolling locomotive chassis, (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the 
  engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview 
  and (3) a "O Ring Drive" much like the Lionel engine that you showed in the 
  attachment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I am using the term "O Ring Drive" as that is 
  what it is, using "belt" vs. rubber "bands" confuses me as folks often 
  interchange the terms. However the use of the word "belt" may have also have 
  referred to an "O Ring Drive" back then, too, as was used by Lionel, that is 
  what you are considering version # 3.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > So we should be looking 
  for any references, or models, that will support (or run counter to your 
  theories). I will start searching for clues later tonight. But first, I have a 
  meeting to go to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay W. (BTW, for those who do not know 
  it, the story of how the young man, Robert Smith, came to Athearn with his 
  patented rubber band drive is on page 35 of the Mallerich Athearn 
  book.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > W Jay W, Ray 
  M, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I will explain the pictures I sent shortly. To send them I 
  only know how to create an entire new Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > This 
  attempt to put information together is only to get at the truth as to the type 
  or possible TYPES of prototype Athearn tried to develop a good working 
  Pacific. I fully agree Athearn was a frugal man and didn't like to waste 
  money. I think this whole fiasco was Athearn (be it Mr. or Athearn the company 
  and it's people) had put a lot of money out in pre advance advertisement, had 
  already had packaging material ready (although with misprints on them which I 
  already pointed out in a separate Email) and he had a lot on the line as 
  Lionel was involved who also had catalogs showing the engine that wasn't 
  available (and never would be). I hope you just read the Email that I sent 
  this morning about information gleaned from the Greenberg Athearn Guide. As I 
  said the information was taken from an INTERVIEW ( Athearn or Athearn the 
  company. I'm not sure). I say it's very contradictory as it mentions trouble 
  with the Hi-F rubber band drive IN THE TENDER". It then goes on to talk about 
  highly detailed plastic DRIVERS that sounds like they lost their traction on 
  the rails. Unless something is missing or I don't understand it this paragraph 
  is talking about TWO different prototypes ( one with tender drive , one with 
  the more normal drive in the engine hence the slipping drivers mentioned, 
  neither of which worked.) It was not an effort to confuse what was actually 
  going on but Athearn's (Mr. or he company) attempt to get something out on the 
  market. Again the above information was told to someone in an interview by 
  Athearn (Mr. and or Company people). NOT MY WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
  With that said I am proposing a POSSIBLE 3rd prototype ( assuming there was 
  more then one and information above seems to suggest it) that was tried and 
  didn't work well and was never brought out. That is where the pictures 
  attached come into play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > These pictures are of a 
  Lionel 2-4-2 steam engine that was marketed. I would like you to notice the 
  drive called a "Belt Drive. As I get into this remember Athearn designers in 
  an interview use the words "belt drive" for their prototype failed 
  Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > The story I have about this engine goes 
  back to Athearn. It was exactly around the time Athearn was struggling to get 
  a working Hi-F RBD Pacific engine to work as he promised. The information I 
  have from a number of different sources about this particular engine is that 
  it was a collaboration ( just like the E-33 electric ) between Athearn and 
  Lionel. The first PROTOTYPE / MOCK UP had an Athearn motor for drive and used 
  this skinny "O"ring drive with pulleys on a shaft geared to the drivers ( a 
  rubber band would provide terrible performance for traction in this type of 
  set up) This to me is a "band driven" engine. This engine was in design mode 
  at the same time Athearn was having his own problem, 1958-1960. This engine 
  also had very poor performance. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I have to look at 
  this plus other information I have put out and people send along with the 
  "possibility" that some might have a sample and come to a conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Unless someone can come out with more concrete information 
  or pictures to change my way of thinking I have started to believe there had 
  to be a couple of prototype that Athearn tried. (1) A Hi-F rubber band drive 
  in the tender as stated in an interview. (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the 
  engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview 
  (3). a "Band Drive" much like this Lionel engine that was a collaboration with 
  Athearn at the same time he was having trouble with is Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I leave the decision up to the jury, unless anyone can produce 
  solid evidence otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9785
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                        Sorry I forgot to reply to the 
first part of your Email. Your sentence about "throw big passenger type drivers 
into it" reinforces my thoughts. Athearn engineers would have realized this 
mistake quickly and why I feel they shifted to other prototypes that also didn't 
make it. Also goes back to Athearn being very frugal. He would have seen it was 
folly to follow up on this idea. I doubt he would have thrown money at it in an 
attempt to get it going. I don't think it would have taken 2 years from the time 
he first announced a Hi-F RBD  ( no matter what the set up was) to the 
actual release of a geared Pacific to come to that decision. He was smarter then 
that. And while these geared Pacifics were not they best performers it came down 
to money again as he had to get something out on the market because he had 
promised one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     .
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:01 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early 
  Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I am puzzled as to why they would even try.
                                                                                                                                                                                    I had plenty of experience 
  with HiF diseasemals in the 50-'s and 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Imagine, the slip we had with 
  the band on the main shaft with small diameter wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Now, throw big 
  passenger-type drivers into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    The rubber bands must have had a life 
  expectancy measured in minutes.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Now, that said, and thinking about 
  this........ maybe I'm more off in the noggin than I want to admit, but I 
  recall someone who had one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    I actually THINK I held it, back in Southern 
  California, probably 59 or early 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    What I distinctly recall was the 
  royal pain it was to change the belts.

                                                                                                                                                                                    When I saw it, it was not 
  running due to belt failure.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The owner said (and for all I know, it was 
  Colonel Bragg in North Anaheim/South Fullerton), you had to remove the boiler, 
  motor, shaft, siderods, some kind of bottom cover, drivers, and hope you got 
  it all back together correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    There was also a hobby shop on Brookhurst 
  north of the Riverside Freeway, at the intersection with Orangethrope, nice 
  guy in a wheelchair ran it, may have been him.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I had 2 of the Lil' 
  Monsters (0-4-2T), and still have parts of one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Those were probably the 
  bigest disappointement of any model railroad item I ever owned.

                                                                                                                                                                                    And, in 
  all those years, I don't recall ever owning or even seeing the 0-6-0 with 
  separate tender, unless I did and thought it was Lionel or maybe 
  Revell.

                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As I have consistently said I am searching 
  for the truth. What you wrote in the first paragraph (well stated) is what I 
  feel could have been based on what other people, especially at Athearn, have 
  said. I didn't write the words and why I ask the questions at the start.. 
  Looking for input.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have just tried to point out what I read. Some of 
  the wording could be the same thing like RBD vs. Belt Drive. But the fact I 
  pointed out, and as written in Greenberg's Athearn book, concerning an 
  interview and the way it is written suggest to me that two different pre 
  -geared, pre- production designs were tried for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As for what 
  became a standard belt drive style for later Lionel Ho is the story behind a 
  collaboration between Athearn and Lionel at the same time as the failed 
  Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > So yes I have been led to the beliefs you state so well. 
  You're ability to put things down in less words is better then mine. Now I 
  must seek to prove or disprove this with ads or write ups, Athearn books, 
  stories and other types of information. That is why I wanted seek out any 
  possible concrete evidence, either way, from what I present. A sample or birds 
  eye view of one would be best. Till then correct and tear apart where I have 
  gone. I got to this point by what has been in print not my guessing . This is 
  not a way to ruffle any feathers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > OK, as I understand it, you believe there 
  to be three (or at least three) pre-geared, pre-production designs for the 
  Pacific: (1) A completely self-contained Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender 
  with free rolling locomotive chassis, (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the 
  engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview 
  and (3) a "O Ring Drive" much like the Lionel engine that you showed in the 
  attachment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I am using the term "O Ring Drive" as that is 
  what it is, using "belt" vs. rubber "bands" confuses me as folks often 
  interchange the terms. However the use of the word "belt" may have also have 
  referred to an "O Ring Drive" back then, too, as was used by Lionel, that is 
  what you are considering version # 3.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > So we should be looking 
  for any references, or models, that will support (or run counter to your 
  theories). I will start searching for clues later tonight. But first, I have a 
  meeting to go to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay W. (BTW, for those who do not know 
  it, the story of how the young man, Robert Smith, came to Athearn with his 
  patented rubber band drive is on page 35 of the Mallerich Athearn 
  book.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > W Jay W, Ray 
  M, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I will explain the pictures I sent shortly. To send them I 
  only know how to create an entire new Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > This 
  attempt to put information together is only to get at the truth as to the type 
  or possible TYPES of prototype Athearn tried to develop a good working 
  Pacific. I fully agree Athearn was a frugal man and didn't like to waste 
  money. I think this whole fiasco was Athearn (be it Mr. or Athearn the company 
  and it's people) had put a lot of money out in pre advance advertisement, had 
  already had packaging material ready (although with misprints on them which I 
  already pointed out in a separate Email) and he had a lot on the line as 
  Lionel was involved who also had catalogs showing the engine that wasn't 
  available (and never would be). I hope you just read the Email that I sent 
  this morning about information gleaned from the Greenberg Athearn Guide. As I 
  said the information was taken from an INTERVIEW ( Athearn or Athearn the 
  company. I'm not sure). I say it's very contradictory as it mentions trouble 
  with the Hi-F rubber band drive IN THE TENDER". It then goes on to talk about 
  highly detailed plastic DRIVERS that sounds like they lost their traction on 
  the rails. Unless something is missing or I don't understand it this paragraph 
  is talking about TWO different prototypes ( one with tender drive , one with 
  the more normal drive in the engine hence the slipping drivers mentioned, 
  neither of which worked.) It was not an effort to confuse what was actually 
  going on but Athearn's (Mr. or he company) attempt to get something out on the 
  market. Again the above information was told to someone in an interview by 
  Athearn (Mr. and or Company people). NOT MY WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
  With that said I am proposing a POSSIBLE 3rd prototype ( assuming there was 
  more then one and information above seems to suggest it) that was tried and 
  didn't work well and was never brought out. That is where the pictures 
  attached come into play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > These pictures are of a 
  Lionel 2-4-2 steam engine that was marketed. I would like you to notice the 
  drive called a "Belt Drive. As I get into this remember Athearn designers in 
  an interview use the words "belt drive" for their prototype failed 
  Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > The story I have about this engine goes 
  back to Athearn. It was exactly around the time Athearn was struggling to get 
  a working Hi-F RBD Pacific engine to work as he promised. The information I 
  have from a number of different sources about this particular engine is that 
  it was a collaboration ( just like the E-33 electric ) between Athearn and 
  Lionel. The first PROTOTYPE / MOCK UP had an Athearn motor for drive and used 
  this skinny "O"ring drive with pulleys on a shaft geared to the drivers ( a 
  rubber band would provide terrible performance for traction in this type of 
  set up) This to me is a "band driven" engine. This engine was in design mode 
  at the same time Athearn was having his own problem, 1958-1960. This engine 
  also had very poor performance. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I have to look at 
  this plus other information I have put out and people send along with the 
  "possibility" that some might have a sample and come to a conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Unless someone can come out with more concrete information 
  or pictures to change my way of thinking I have started to believe there had 
  to be a couple of prototype that Athearn tried. (1) A Hi-F rubber band drive 
  in the tender as stated in an interview. (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the 
  engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview 
  (3). a "Band Drive" much like this Lionel engine that was a collaboration with 
  Athearn at the same time he was having trouble with is Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I leave the decision up to the jury, unless anyone can produce 
  solid evidence otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9786
						From: oneto87
						Date: 4/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Sell of H0 Scenrey Items (Trees, Figures, Vehicles)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi there,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have to sell about
                                                                                                                                                                                    
About 100 Palm Trees (Plastic) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
800-1000 Figures handpainted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
800-1000 Figures unpainted
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hot Wheels 1/87 Bone Shaker blue
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hot Wheels 1/87 Bone Shaker black
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hot Wheels 1/87 Bone Shaker blue
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hot Wheels 1/87 Ford GTX 1 white
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hot Wheels 1/87 Ford GTX 1 orange
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hot Wheels 1/87 Ford Shelby silver
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hot Wheels 1/87 Enzo Ferrari black
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hot Wheels 1/87 Ford Mustang GT white
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hot Wheels 1/87 Enzo Ferrari red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hot Wheels 1/87 VW Beetle blue
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hot Wheels 1/87 Purple Passion
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hot Wheels 1/87 Ford Shelby red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hot Wheels 1/87 Porsche Cayman silver
                                                                                                                                                                                    
please contact me offline for details, pics and price
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Manuela Luetzelberger
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9787
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: pop-ups
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Has 
any body else started receiving pop up messages when viewing the site ? It 
seems that every time I come into the site, to view anything,  a 
pop up shows up and this started to happen after the recent shut down by 
Yahoo.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
I have an Ad Aware program to eliminate pop ups and I don't receive them any 
other time until I come into the site.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9788
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: pop-ups
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    No Jim, none here, and I do not have any special programs, except an free Ad Aware one a couple years old.  W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Has any body else started receiving pop up messages when viewing the site ? It seems that every time I come into the site, to view anything,  a pop up shows up and this started to happen after the recent shut down by Yahoo.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>              I have an Ad Aware program to eliminate pop ups and I don't receive them any other time until I come into the site.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9789
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Stock GG-1 Sale to Schrader - Date
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    All:  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I found this reference on page 8 of the the May 1956 issue of RMC last night while searching for something else:  "Albert E. Schrader, of Trenton, NJ, has purchased all patterns, molds, jigs, etc. for the HO gauge George Stock GG-1. When released, the Schrader GG-1 will be twin DC-60 powered and completely reengineered."  So 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I now know the approximate time period of the sale.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I see that the eBay sale of the suspected Stock/Schrader GG-1 last week was concluded at $73, which more than I could afford for curiosity's sake, but did not seem unreasonable, other than to those, like me, looking for a bargain, too!  Hopefully, it was won by one of us who will report and show us what is inside, perhaps giving more clues to its origins. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Used to be we could contact purchasers easily though eBay; if the purchaser was not a member here, would have invited them to join us.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9790
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Stock GG-1 Sale to Schrader - Date
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                         A good little tidbit 
of information concerning the Stock / Schrader GG-1's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         As for the Ebay item that 
might or might have been. I did not bid either. I can't afford to have two 
of the same item and already having really good versions of the GG-1 by Stock 
and Schrader I didn't want to buy something in need of repair. I hope someone in 
the group has bought it and when received will share with the 
group.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I don't like the 
hidden buyers name ( ?*** ?) on Ebay but it's their way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:40 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Stock GG-1 Sale to 
  Schrader - Date
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    All: 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I found this reference on page 8 of the the May 1956 issue of 
  RMC last night while searching for something else: "Albert E. Schrader, of 
  Trenton, NJ, has purchased all patterns, molds, jigs, etc. for the HO gauge 
  George Stock GG-1. When released, the Schrader GG-1 will be twin DC-60 powered 
  and completely reengineered. " So 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I now know the approximate time 
  period of the sale.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I see that the eBay sale of the suspected 
  Stock/Schrader GG-1 last week was concluded at $73, which more than I could 
  afford for curiosity's sake, but did not seem unreasonable, other than to 
  those, like me, looking for a bargain, too! Hopefully, it was won by one of us 
  who will report and show us what is inside, perhaps giving more clues to its 
  origins. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Used to be we could contact purchasers easily though eBay; if 
  the purchaser was not a member here, would have invited them to join 
  us.

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9791
						From: Dst8596587@aol.com
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    For information only. The summer issue of Model Trains dated 1959 has a full page ad from Athearn that showcased the new 4-6-2 in HO available at your dealer in Kit form at 9.95 or ready to run at 14.95. The engine is powered by HI-F drive, quoting the ad. The engine is plastic drivered and had no wires displayed between the tender and engine which would be expected if the motor was in the boiler. Although an arguement can be made the wires were puposely  omitted. To  add a little more mystery to this thread I have two 0-6-0 in my possesion which have entirely different bottom plates and driver set up. One has no gear with the white strip around the driver axles and a smooth bottom plate while the other has gearing and a cut out machined on the plate to allow it rotation. I'll see if I can get photos on line by the weekend.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 9:43 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                        Sorry I forgot to reply to the first part of your Email. Your sentence about "throw big passenger type drivers into it" reinforces my thoughts. Athearn engineers would have realized this mistake quickly and why I feel they shifted to other prototypes that also didn't make it. Also goes back to Athearn being very frugal. He would have seen it was folly to follow up on this idea. I doubt he would have thrown money at it in an attempt to get it going. I don't think it would have taken 2 years from the time he first announced a Hi-F RBD  ( no matter what the set up was) to the actual release of a geared Pacific to come to that decision. He was smarter then that. And while these geared Pacifics were not they best performers it came down to money again as he had to get something out on the market because he had promised one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                     .
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    From: curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    






                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I am puzzled as to why they would even try.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I had plenty of experience with HiF diseasemals in the 50-'s and 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Imagine, the slip we had with the band on the main shaft with small diameter wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Now, throw big passenger-type drivers into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The rubber bands must have had a life expectancy measured in minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Now, that said, and thinking about this........ maybe I'm more off in the noggin than I want to admit, but I recall someone who had one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I actually THINK I held it, back in Southern California, probably 59 or early 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
What I distinctly recall was the royal pain it was to change the belts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
When I saw it, it was not running due to belt failure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The owner said (and for all I know, it was Colonel Bragg in North Anaheim/South Fullerton), you had to remove the boiler, motor, shaft, siderods, some kind of bottom cover, drivers, and hope you got it all back together correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
There was also a hobby shop on Brookhurst north of the Riverside Freeway, at the intersection with Orangethrope, nice guy in a wheelchair ran it, may have been him.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I had 2 of the Lil' Monsters (0-4-2T), and still have parts of one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Those were probably the bigest disappointement of any model railroad item I ever owned.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And, in all those years, I don't recall ever owning or even seeing the 0-6-0 with separate tender, unless I did and thought it was Lionel or maybe Revell.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> As I have consistently said I am searching for the truth. What you wrote in the first paragraph (well stated) is what I feel could have been based on what other people, especially at Athearn, have said. I didn't write the words and why I ask the questions at the start.. Looking for input.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have just tried to point out what I read. Some of the wording could be the same thing like RBD vs. Belt Drive. But the fact I pointed out, and as written in Greenberg's Athearn book, concerning an interview and the way it is written suggest to me that two different pre -geared, pre- production designs were tried for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> As for what became a standard belt drive style for later Lionel Ho is the story behind a collaboration between Athearn and Lionel at the same time as the failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> So yes I have been led to the beliefs you state so well. You're ability to put things down in less words is better then mine. Now I must seek to prove or disprove this with ads or write ups, Athearn books, stories and other types of information. That is why I wanted seek out any possible concrete evidence, either way, from what I present. A sample or birds eye view of one would be best. Till then correct and tear apart where I have gone. I got to this point by what has been in print not my guessing . This is not a way to ruffle any feathers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> OK, as I understand it, you believe there to be three (or at least three) pre-geared, pre-production designs for the Pacific: (1) A completely self-contained Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender with free rolling locomotive chassis, (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview and (3) a "O Ring Drive" much like the Lionel engine that you showed in the attachment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I am using the term "O Ring Drive" as that is what it is, using "belt" vs. rubber "bands" confuses me as folks often interchange the terms. However the use of the word "belt" may have also have referred to an "O Ring Drive" back then, too, as was used by Lionel, that is what you are considering version # 3.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> So we should be looking for any references, or models, that will support (or run counter to your theories). I will start searching for clues later tonight. But first, I have a meeting to go to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W. (BTW, for those who do not know it, the story of how the young man, Robert Smith, came to Athearn with his patented rubber band drive is on page 35 of the Mallerich Athearn book.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > W Jay W, Ray M, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I will explain the pictures I sent shortly. To send them I only know how to create an entire new Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > This attempt to put information together is only to get at the truth as to the type or possible TYPES of prototype Athearn tried to develop a good working Pacific. I fully agree Athearn was a frugal man and didn't like to waste money. I think this whole fiasco was Athearn (be it Mr. or Athearn the company and it's people) had put a lot of money out in pre advance advertisement, had already had packaging material ready (although with misprints on them which I already pointed out in a separate Email) and he had a lot on the line as Lionel was involved who also had catalogs showing the engine that wasn't available (and never would be). I hope you just read the Email that I sent this morning about information gleaned from the Greenberg Athearn Guide. As I said the information was taken from an INTERVIEW ( Athearn or Athearn the company. I'm not sure). I say it's very contradictory as it mentions trouble with the Hi-F rubber band drive IN THE TENDER". It then goes on to t!
alk about highly detailed plastic DRIVERS that sounds like they lost their traction on the rails. Unless something is missing or I don't understand it this paragraph is talking about TWO different prototypes ( one with tender drive , one with the more normal drive in the engine hence the slipping drivers mentioned, neither of which worked.) It was not an effort to confuse what was actually going on but Athearn's (Mr. or he company) attempt to get something out on the market. Again the above information was told to someone in an interview by Athearn (Mr. and or Company people). NOT MY WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > With that said I am proposing a POSSIBLE 3rd prototype ( assuming there was more then one and information above seems to suggest it) that was tried and didn't work well and was never brought out. That is where the pictures attached come into play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > These pictures are of a Lionel 2-4-2 steam engine that was marketed. I would like you to notice the drive called a "Belt Drive. As I get into this remember Athearn designers in an interview use the words "belt drive" for their prototype failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The story I have about this engine goes back to Athearn. It was exactly around the time Athearn was struggling to get a working Hi-F RBD Pacific engine to work as he promised. The information I have from a number of different sources about this particular engine is that it was a collaboration ( just like the E-33 electric ) between Athearn and Lionel. The first PROTOTYPE / MOCK UP had an Athearn motor for drive and used this skinny "O"ring drive with pulleys on a shaft geared to the drivers ( a rubber band would provide terrible performance for traction in this type of set up) This to me is a "band driven" engine. This engine was in design mode at the same time Athearn was having his own problem, 1958-1960. This engine also had very poor performance. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I have to look at this plus other information I have put out and people send along with the "possibility" that some might have a sample and come to a conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Unless someone can come out with more concrete information or pictures to change my way of thinking I have started to believe there had to be a couple of prototype that Athearn tried. (1) A Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender as stated in an interview. (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview (3). a "Band Drive" much like this Lionel engine that was a collaboration with Athearn at the same time he was having trouble with is Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I leave the decision up to the jury, unless anyone can produce solid evidence otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    







                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9792
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    OK Don (S.?), I checked and the profile of some detail on the tender front was just that, part of the tender, so no clue there.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dst8596587@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> For information only. The summer issue of Model Trains dated 1959 has a full page ad from Athearn that showcased the new 4-6-2 in HO available at your dealer?in Kit form at 9.95 or ready to run at 14.95. The engine is powered by HI-F drive, quoting the ad. The engine is plastic drivered and had no wires displayed between the tender and engine which would be expected if the motor was in the boiler. Although an arguement can be made the wires were puposely? omitted. To? add a little more mystery to this thread I have two 0-6-0 in my possesion which have entirely different bottom plates and driver set up. One has no gear with the white strip around the driver axles and a smooth bottom plate while the other has gearing and a cut out machined on the plate to allow it rotation. I'll see if I can get photos?on line by the weekend.? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 9:43 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ??? Sorry I forgot to reply to the first part of your Email. Your sentence about "throw big passenger type drivers into it" reinforces my thoughts. Athearn engineers would have realized this mistake quickly and why I feel they shifted to other prototypes that also didn't make it. Also goes back to Athearn being very frugal. He would have seen it was folly to follow up on this idea. I doubt he would have thrown money at it in an attempt to get it going. I don't think it would have taken 2 years from the time he first announced a Hi-F RBD? ( no matter what the set up was) to the actual release of a geared Pacific to come to that decision. He was smarter then that. And while these geared Pacifics were not they best performers it came down to money again as he had to get something out on the market because he had promised one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ?.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ?????????????????????????????????????????? Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I am puzzled as to why they would even try.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I had plenty of experience with HiF diseasemals in the 50-'s and 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Imagine, the slip we had with the band on the main shaft with small diameter wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Now, throw big passenger-type drivers into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The rubber bands must have had a life expectancy measured in minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Now, that said, and thinking about this........maybe I'm more off in the noggin than I want to admit, but I recall someone who had one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I actually THINK I held it, back in Southern California, probably 59 or early 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> What I distinctly recall was the royal pain it was to change the belts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> When I saw it, it was not running due to belt failure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The owner said (and for all I know, it was Colonel Bragg in North Anaheim/South Fullerton), you had to remove the boiler, motor, shaft, siderods, some kind of bottom cover, drivers, and hope you got it all back together correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> There was also a hobby shop on Brookhurst north of the Riverside Freeway, at the intersection with Orangethrope, nice guy in a wheelchair ran it, may have been him.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I had 2 of the Lil' Monsters (0-4-2T), and still have parts of one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Those were probably the bigest disappointement of any model railroad item I ever owned.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> And, in all those years, I don't recall ever owning or even seeing the 0-6-0 with separate tender, unless I did and thought it was Lionel or maybe Revell.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > As I have consistently said I am searching for the truth. What you wrote in the first paragraph (well stated) is what I feel could have been based on what other people, especially at Athearn, have said. I didn't write the words and why I ask the questions at the start.. Looking for input.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I have just tried to point out what I read. Some of the wording could be the same thing like RBD vs. Belt Drive. But the fact I pointed out, and as written in Greenberg's Athearn book, concerning an interview and the way it is written suggest to me that two different pre -geared, pre- production designs were tried for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > As for what became a standard belt drive style for later Lionel Ho is the story behind a collaboration between Athearn and Lionel at the same time as the failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > So yes I have been led to the beliefs you state so well. You're ability to put things down in less words is better then mine. Now I must seek to prove or disprove this with ads or write ups, Athearn books, stories and other types of information. That is why I wanted seek out any possible concrete evidence, either way, from what I present. A sample or birds eye view of one would be best. Till then correct and tear apart where I have gone. I got to this point by what has been in print not my guessing . This is not a way to ruffle any feathers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > OK, as I understand it, you believe there to be three (or at least three) pre-geared, pre-production designs for the Pacific: (1) A completely self-contained Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender with free rolling locomotive chassis, (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview and (3) a "O Ring Drive" much like the Lionel engine that you showed in the attachment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I am using the term "O Ring Drive" as that is what it is, using "belt" vs. rubber "bands" confuses me as folks often interchange the terms. However the use of the word "belt" may have also have referred to an "O Ring Drive" back then, too, as was used by Lionel, that is what you are considering version # 3.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > So we should be looking for any references, or models, that will support (or run counter to your theories). I will start searching for clues later tonight. But first, I have a meeting to go to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > W Jay W. (BTW, for those who do not know it, the story of how the young man, Robert Smith, came to Athearn with his patented rubber band drive is on page 35 of the Mallerich Athearn book.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > W Jay W, Ray M, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I will explain the pictures I sent shortly. To send them I only know how to create an entire new Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > This attempt to put information together is only to get at the truth as to the type or possible TYPES of prototype Athearn tried to develop a good working Pacific. I fully agree Athearn was a frugal man and didn't like to waste money. I think this whole fiasco was Athearn (be it Mr. or Athearn the company and it's people) had put a lot of money out in pre advance advertisement, had already had packaging material ready (although with misprints on them which I already pointed out in a separate Email) and he had a lot on the line as Lionel was involved who also had catalogs showing the engine that wasn't available (and never would be). I hope you just read the Email that I sent this morning about information gleaned from the Greenberg Athearn Guide. As I said the information was taken from an INTERVIEW ( Athearn or Athearn the company. I'm not sure). I say it's very contradictory as it mentions trouble with the Hi-F rubber band drive IN THE TENDER". It then goes on to talk ab!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> out highly detailed plastic DRIVERS that sounds like they lost their traction on the rails. Unless something is missing or I don't understand it this paragraph is talking about TWO different prototypes ( one with tender drive , one with the more normal drive in the engine hence the slipping drivers mentioned, neither of which worked.) It was not an effort to confuse what was actually going on but Athearn's (Mr. or he company) attempt to get something out on the market. Again the above information was told to someone in an interview by Athearn (Mr. and or Company people). NOT MY WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > With that said I am proposing a POSSIBLE 3rd prototype ( assuming there was more then one and information above seems to suggest it) that was tried and didn't work well and was never brought out. That is where the pictures attached come into play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > These pictures are of a Lionel 2-4-2 steam engine that was marketed. I would like you to notice the drive called a "Belt Drive. As I get into this remember Athearn designers in an interview use the words "belt drive" for their prototype failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > The story I have about this engine goes back to Athearn. It was exactly around the time Athearn was struggling to get a working Hi-F RBD Pacific engine to work as he promised. The information I have from a number of different sources about this particular engine is that it was a collaboration ( just like the E-33 electric ) between Athearn and Lionel. The first PROTOTYPE / MOCK UP had an Athearn motor for drive and used this skinny "O"ring drive with pulleys on a shaft geared to the drivers ( a rubber band would provide terrible performance for traction in this type of set up) This to me is a "band driven" engine. This engine was in design mode at the same time Athearn was having his own problem, 1958-1960. This engine also had very poor performance. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I have to look at this plus other information I have put out and people send along with the "possibility" that some might have a sample and come to a conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Unless someone can come out with more concrete information or pictures to change my way of thinking I have started to believe there had to be a couple of prototype that Athearn tried. (1) A Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender as stated in an interview. (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview (3). a "Band Drive" much like this Lionel engine that was a collaboration with Athearn at the same time he was having trouble with is Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I leave the decision up to the jury, unless anyone can produce solid evidence otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9793
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Don -,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Two of the RMC's I was looking though last night, there may be more, have those full page Hi-F Pacific ads on the back cover as well, September and Novermber, 1959. I also looked them over carefully for any tell-tale signs and saw nothing, but it also looks to me that much re-touching of the photo was done to strip the background away, leaving white space, and possibly removing any other signs of any power wires or drive.  There was some detail on the upper half of the front end of the tender I couldn't identify, and have to go back to Jim's photo's of production versions to possibly resolve that as I have no complete locomotives in my collection.  Meanwhile, will search some more tonight for any clues.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dst8596587@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> For information only. The summer issue of Model Trains dated 1959 has a full page ad from Athearn that showcased the new 4-6-2 in HO available at your dealer?in Kit form at 9.95 or ready to run at 14.95. The engine is powered by HI-F drive, quoting the ad. The engine is plastic drivered and had no wires displayed between the tender and engine which would be expected if the motor was in the boiler. Although an arguement can be made the wires were puposely? omitted. To? add a little more mystery to this thread I have two 0-6-0 in my possesion which have entirely different bottom plates and driver set up. One has no gear with the white strip around the driver axles and a smooth bottom plate while the other has gearing and a cut out machined on the plate to allow it rotation. I'll see if I can get photos?on line by the weekend.? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 9:43 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ??? Sorry I forgot to reply to the first part of your Email. Your sentence about "throw big passenger type drivers into it" reinforces my thoughts. Athearn engineers would have realized this mistake quickly and why I feel they shifted to other prototypes that also didn't make it. Also goes back to Athearn being very frugal. He would have seen it was folly to follow up on this idea. I doubt he would have thrown money at it in an attempt to get it going. I don't think it would have taken 2 years from the time he first announced a Hi-F RBD? ( no matter what the set up was) to the actual release of a geared Pacific to come to that decision. He was smarter then that. And while these geared Pacifics were not they best performers it came down to money again as he had to get something out on the market because he had promised one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ?.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ?????????????????????????????????????????? Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I am puzzled as to why they would even try.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I had plenty of experience with HiF diseasemals in the 50-'s and 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Imagine, the slip we had with the band on the main shaft with small diameter wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Now, throw big passenger-type drivers into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The rubber bands must have had a life expectancy measured in minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Now, that said, and thinking about this........maybe I'm more off in the noggin than I want to admit, but I recall someone who had one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I actually THINK I held it, back in Southern California, probably 59 or early 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> What I distinctly recall was the royal pain it was to change the belts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> When I saw it, it was not running due to belt failure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The owner said (and for all I know, it was Colonel Bragg in North Anaheim/South Fullerton), you had to remove the boiler, motor, shaft, siderods, some kind of bottom cover, drivers, and hope you got it all back together correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> There was also a hobby shop on Brookhurst north of the Riverside Freeway, at the intersection with Orangethrope, nice guy in a wheelchair ran it, may have been him.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I had 2 of the Lil' Monsters (0-4-2T), and still have parts of one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Those were probably the bigest disappointement of any model railroad item I ever owned.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> And, in all those years, I don't recall ever owning or even seeing the 0-6-0 with separate tender, unless I did and thought it was Lionel or maybe Revell.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > As I have consistently said I am searching for the truth. What you wrote in the first paragraph (well stated) is what I feel could have been based on what other people, especially at Athearn, have said. I didn't write the words and why I ask the questions at the start.. Looking for input.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I have just tried to point out what I read. Some of the wording could be the same thing like RBD vs. Belt Drive. But the fact I pointed out, and as written in Greenberg's Athearn book, concerning an interview and the way it is written suggest to me that two different pre -geared, pre- production designs were tried for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > As for what became a standard belt drive style for later Lionel Ho is the story behind a collaboration between Athearn and Lionel at the same time as the failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > So yes I have been led to the beliefs you state so well. You're ability to put things down in less words is better then mine. Now I must seek to prove or disprove this with ads or write ups, Athearn books, stories and other types of information. That is why I wanted seek out any possible concrete evidence, either way, from what I present. A sample or birds eye view of one would be best. Till then correct and tear apart where I have gone. I got to this point by what has been in print not my guessing . This is not a way to ruffle any feathers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > OK, as I understand it, you believe there to be three (or at least three) pre-geared, pre-production designs for the Pacific: (1) A completely self-contained Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender with free rolling locomotive chassis, (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview and (3) a "O Ring Drive" much like the Lionel engine that you showed in the attachment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I am using the term "O Ring Drive" as that is what it is, using "belt" vs. rubber "bands" confuses me as folks often interchange the terms. However the use of the word "belt" may have also have referred to an "O Ring Drive" back then, too, as was used by Lionel, that is what you are considering version # 3.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > So we should be looking for any references, or models, that will support (or run counter to your theories). I will start searching for clues later tonight. But first, I have a meeting to go to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > W Jay W. (BTW, for those who do not know it, the story of how the young man, Robert Smith, came to Athearn with his patented rubber band drive is on page 35 of the Mallerich Athearn book.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > W Jay W, Ray M, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I will explain the pictures I sent shortly. To send them I only know how to create an entire new Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > This attempt to put information together is only to get at the truth as to the type or possible TYPES of prototype Athearn tried to develop a good working Pacific. I fully agree Athearn was a frugal man and didn't like to waste money. I think this whole fiasco was Athearn (be it Mr. or Athearn the company and it's people) had put a lot of money out in pre advance advertisement, had already had packaging material ready (although with misprints on them which I already pointed out in a separate Email) and he had a lot on the line as Lionel was involved who also had catalogs showing the engine that wasn't available (and never would be). I hope you just read the Email that I sent this morning about information gleaned from the Greenberg Athearn Guide. As I said the information was taken from an INTERVIEW ( Athearn or Athearn the company. I'm not sure). I say it's very contradictory as it mentions trouble with the Hi-F rubber band drive IN THE TENDER". It then goes on to talk ab!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> out highly detailed plastic DRIVERS that sounds like they lost their traction on the rails. Unless something is missing or I don't understand it this paragraph is talking about TWO different prototypes ( one with tender drive , one with the more normal drive in the engine hence the slipping drivers mentioned, neither of which worked.) It was not an effort to confuse what was actually going on but Athearn's (Mr. or he company) attempt to get something out on the market. Again the above information was told to someone in an interview by Athearn (Mr. and or Company people). NOT MY WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > With that said I am proposing a POSSIBLE 3rd prototype ( assuming there was more then one and information above seems to suggest it) that was tried and didn't work well and was never brought out. That is where the pictures attached come into play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > These pictures are of a Lionel 2-4-2 steam engine that was marketed. I would like you to notice the drive called a "Belt Drive. As I get into this remember Athearn designers in an interview use the words "belt drive" for their prototype failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > The story I have about this engine goes back to Athearn. It was exactly around the time Athearn was struggling to get a working Hi-F RBD Pacific engine to work as he promised. The information I have from a number of different sources about this particular engine is that it was a collaboration ( just like the E-33 electric ) between Athearn and Lionel. The first PROTOTYPE / MOCK UP had an Athearn motor for drive and used this skinny "O"ring drive with pulleys on a shaft geared to the drivers ( a rubber band would provide terrible performance for traction in this type of set up) This to me is a "band driven" engine. This engine was in design mode at the same time Athearn was having his own problem, 1958-1960. This engine also had very poor performance. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I have to look at this plus other information I have put out and people send along with the "possibility" that some might have a sample and come to a conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Unless someone can come out with more concrete information or pictures to change my way of thinking I have started to believe there had to be a couple of prototype that Athearn tried. (1) A Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender as stated in an interview. (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview (3). a "Band Drive" much like this Lionel engine that was a collaboration with Athearn at the same time he was having trouble with is Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I leave the decision up to the jury, unless anyone can produce solid evidence otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9794
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hey guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Check out item 110377629550 on ebay. Its listed as a Lindsay Alco (it's in a Lindsay box) but it is an A-B set of metal Varney 8 wheel gear drive F3's. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
No question they are Varney shells and frames but I am not certain about the drives. I can't make out the name on the gear box cover plates and they don't look like the Varney's that I am used to seeing. Nor are they Hobbytown and definitely not Lindsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
But it is a nice set for someone. Maybe even an old GB&W guy like me. I can always use a little more CNW power.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
GBWHS Newsletter Editor
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9795
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    They may have advertised it in 1959, but as I 
remember it was not available in hobby shops until at least 1962.  Probably 
one of the biggest "Vaporware" items in model railroading.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:24 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early 
  Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    For 
  information only. The summer issue of Model Trains dated 1959 has a full page 
  ad from Athearn that showcased the new 4-6-2 in HO available at your 
  dealer in Kit form at 9.95 or ready to run at 14.95. The engine is 
  powered by HI-F drive, quoting the ad. The engine is plastic drivered and had 
  no wires displayed between the tender and engine which would be expected if 
  the motor was in the boiler. Although an arguement can be made the wires were 
  puposely  omitted. To  add a little more mystery to this thread I 
  have two 0-6-0 in my possesion which have entirely different bottom plates and 
  driver set up. One has no gear with the white strip around the driver axles 
  and a smooth bottom plate while the other has gearing and a cut out machined 
  on the plate to allow it rotation. I'll see if I can get photos on line 
  by the weekend.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don


                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 9:43 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: 
  [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        Sorry I forgot to reply to the 
  first part of your Email. Your sentence about "throw big passenger type 
  drivers into it" reinforces my thoughts. Athearn engineers would have realized 
  this mistake quickly and why I feel they shifted to other prototypes that also 
  didn't make it. Also goes back to Athearn being very frugal. He would have 
  seen it was folly to follow up on this idea. I doubt he would have thrown 
  money at it in an attempt to get it going. I don't think it would have taken 2 
  years from the time he first announced a Hi-F RBD  ( no matter what the 
  set up was) to the actual release of a geared Pacific to come to that 
  decision. He was smarter then that. And while these geared Pacifics were not 
  they best performers it came down to money again as he had to get something 
  out on the market because he had promised one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:01 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early 
    Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    I am puzzled as to why they would even try.
                                                                                                                                                                                    I had plenty of 
    experience with HiF diseasemals in the 50-'s and 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Imagine, the slip 
    we had with the band on the main shaft with small diameter wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Now, 
    throw big passenger-type drivers into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    The rubber bands must have had 
    a life expectancy measured in minutes.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Now, that said, and thinking 
    about this........ maybe I'm more off in the noggin than I want to 
    admit, but I recall someone who had one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    I actually THINK I held it, back 
    in Southern California, probably 59 or early 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    What I distinctly 
    recall was the royal pain it was to change the belts.

                                                                                                                                                                                    When I saw it, 
    it was not running due to belt failure.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The owner said (and for all I 
    know, it was Colonel Bragg in North Anaheim/South Fullerton), you had to 
    remove the boiler, motor, shaft, siderods, some kind of bottom cover, 
    drivers, and hope you got it all back together correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    There was also 
    a hobby shop on Brookhurst north of the Riverside Freeway, at the 
    intersection with Orangethrope, nice guy in a wheelchair ran it, may have 
    been him.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I had 2 of the Lil' Monsters (0-4-2T), and still have parts 
    of one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Those were probably the bigest disappointement of any model 
    railroad item I ever owned.

                                                                                                                                                                                    And, in all those years, I don't recall 
    ever owning or even seeing the 0-6-0 with separate tender, unless I did and 
    thought it was Lionel or maybe Revell.

                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As I have 
    consistently said I am searching for the truth. What you wrote in the first 
    paragraph (well stated) is what I feel could have been based on what other 
    people, especially at Athearn, have said. I didn't write the words and why I 
    ask the questions at the start.. Looking for input.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have just 
    tried to point out what I read. Some of the wording could be the same thing 
    like RBD vs. Belt Drive. But the fact I pointed out, and as written in 
    Greenberg's Athearn book, concerning an interview and the way it is written 
    suggest to me that two different pre -geared, pre- production designs were 
    tried for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As for what became a standard belt drive style for 
    later Lionel Ho is the story behind a collaboration between Athearn and 
    Lionel at the same time as the failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > So yes I have been 
    led to the beliefs you state so well. You're ability to put things down in 
    less words is better then mine. Now I must seek to prove or disprove this 
    with ads or write ups, Athearn books, stories and other types of 
    information. That is why I wanted seek out any possible concrete evidence, 
    either way, from what I present. A sample or birds eye view of one would be 
    best. Till then correct and tear apart where I have gone. I got to this 
    point by what has been in print not my guessing . This is not a way to 
    ruffle any feathers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message 
    ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: 
    [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > OK, as I understand 
    it, you believe there to be three (or at least three) pre-geared, 
    pre-production designs for the Pacific: (1) A completely self-contained Hi-F 
    rubber band drive in the tender with free rolling locomotive chassis, (2) a 
    Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic 
    drivers as stated in an interview and (3) a "O Ring Drive" much like the 
    Lionel engine that you showed in the attachment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I am using 
    the term "O Ring Drive" as that is what it is, using "belt" vs. rubber 
    "bands" confuses me as folks often interchange the terms. However the use of 
    the word "belt" may have also have referred to an "O Ring Drive" back then, 
    too, as was used by Lionel, that is what you are considering version # 
    3.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > So we should be looking for any references, or models, 
    that will support (or run counter to your theories). I will start searching 
    for clues later tonight. But first, I have a meeting to go to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay W. (BTW, for those who do not know it, the story of how the 
    young man, Robert Smith, came to Athearn with his patented rubber band drive 
    is on page 35 of the Mallerich Athearn book.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
    "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > W Jay W, Ray 
    M, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I will explain the pictures I sent shortly. To send them 
    I only know how to create an entire new Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
    This attempt to put information together is only to get at the truth as to 
    the type or possible TYPES of prototype Athearn tried to develop a good 
    working Pacific. I fully agree Athearn was a frugal man and didn't like to 
    waste money. I think this whole fiasco was Athearn (be it Mr. or Athearn the 
    company and it's people) had put a lot of money out in pre advance 
    advertisement, had already had packaging material ready (although with 
    misprints on them which I already pointed out in a separate Email) and he 
    had a lot on the line as Lionel was involved who also had catalogs showing 
    the engine that wasn't available (and never would be). I hope you just read 
    the Email that I sent this morning about information gleaned from the 
    Greenberg Athearn Guide. As I said the information was taken from an 
    INTERVIEW ( Athearn or Athearn the company. I'm not sure). I say it's very 
    contradictory as it mentions trouble with the Hi-F rubber band drive IN THE 
    TENDER". It then goes on to t! alk about highly detailed plastic DRIVERS 
    that sounds like they lost their traction on the rails. Unless something is 
    missing or I don't understand it this paragraph is talking about TWO 
    different prototypes ( one with tender drive , one with the more normal 
    drive in the engine hence the slipping drivers mentioned, neither of which 
    worked.) It was not an effort to confuse what was actually going on but 
    Athearn's (Mr. or he company) attempt to get something out on the market. 
    Again the above information was told to someone in an interview by Athearn 
    (Mr. and or Company people). NOT MY WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > With 
    that said I am proposing a POSSIBLE 3rd prototype ( assuming there was more 
    then one and information above seems to suggest it) that was tried and 
    didn't work well and was never brought out. That is where the pictures 
    attached come into play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > These pictures are of a 
    Lionel 2-4-2 steam engine that was marketed. I would like you to notice the 
    drive called a "Belt Drive. As I get into this remember Athearn designers in 
    an interview use the words "belt drive" for their prototype failed 
    Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > The story I have about this engine goes 
    back to Athearn. It was exactly around the time Athearn was struggling to 
    get a working Hi-F RBD Pacific engine to work as he promised. The 
    information I have from a number of different sources about this particular 
    engine is that it was a collaboration ( just like the E-33 electric ) 
    between Athearn and Lionel. The first PROTOTYPE / MOCK UP had an Athearn 
    motor for drive and used this skinny "O"ring drive with pulleys on a shaft 
    geared to the drivers ( a rubber band would provide terrible performance for 
    traction in this type of set up) This to me is a "band driven" engine. This 
    engine was in design mode at the same time Athearn was having his own 
    problem, 1958-1960. This engine also had very poor performance. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I have to look at this plus other information I have put 
    out and people send along with the "possibility" that some might have a 
    sample and come to a conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Unless someone 
    can come out with more concrete information or pictures to change my way of 
    thinking I have started to believe there had to be a couple of prototype 
    that Athearn tried. (1) A Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender as stated in 
    an interview. (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor 
    traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview (3). a "Band Drive" 
    much like this Lionel engine that was a collaboration with Athearn at the 
    same time he was having trouble with is Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
    I leave the decision up to the jury, unless anyone can produce solid 
    evidence otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

  

  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  

                                                                                                                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.58/2062 - Release 
  Date: 04/16/09 08:12:00
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9796
						From: Ray Marinaccio
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Those look to me to be International Models drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.net/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg20.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Thu, 4/16/09, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Varney F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 10:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hey guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Check out item 110377629550 on ebay. Its listed as a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Lindsay Alco (it's in a Lindsay box) but it is an A-B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> set of metal Varney 8 wheel gear drive F3's. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> No question they are Varney shells and frames but I am not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> certain about the drives. I can't make out the name on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the gear box cover plates and they don't look like the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Varney's that I am used to seeing. Nor are they
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hobbytown and definitely not Lindsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> But it is a nice set for someone. Maybe even an old
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GB&W guy like me. I can always use a little more CNW
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> power.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GBWHS Newsletter Editor
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9797
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  
  

 
The mechanisms look like the first Varney variety that I owned in
1958-59.  These were the best mechanisms Varney used for the F3.  They
were excellent runners.  Some have DC65 motors and some have DC71
mothers.  If you get them and have any binding problems, I had to put
some brass shims between the gearbox and the cover because if I
tightened the cover screws down tightly it would bind the gears.  Two
thin shims in each box corrected the problem.  I traded mine away for
steam power when I decided to not use diesels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hey guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Check out item 110377629550 on ebay. Its listed as a Lindsay Alco (it's
in a Lindsay box) but it is an A-B set of metal Varney 8 wheel gear
drive F3's. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
No question they are Varney shells and frames but I am not certain
about the drives. I can't make out the name on the gear box cover
plates and they don't look like the Varney's that I am used to seeing.
Nor are they Hobbytown and definitely not Lindsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
But it is a nice set for someone. Maybe even an old GB&W guy like
me. I can always use a little more CNW power.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
GBWHS Newsletter Editor
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9798
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I tend to agree.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I haven't seen the collar on the worm shaft that I can recall on Varneys, nor the hose driveshaft.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
This is the one-piece housing:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosionvarney/varneyf7abpg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and this is the multi-piece Varney:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosionvarney/varney2060kf31951pg2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
There is no collar on the shaft, and a ball end with ears for the driveshaft.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The main gear is much closer to the housing on a Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Close.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Maybe a copy, maybe made to order by Varney for someone else.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Possibly Varney but reworked a bit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I cannot imagine how badly those must run with hard plastic tube driveshafts!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Those look to me to be International Models drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.hoseeker.net/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg20.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- On Thu, 4/16/09, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 10:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hey guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Check out item 110377629550 on ebay. Its listed as a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Lindsay Alco (it's in a Lindsay box) but it is an A-B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > set of metal Varney 8 wheel gear drive F3's. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > No question they are Varney shells and frames but I am not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > certain about the drives. I can't make out the name on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the gear box cover plates and they don't look like the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Varney's that I am used to seeing. Nor are they
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hobbytown and definitely not Lindsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > But it is a nice set for someone. Maybe even an old
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > GB&W guy like me. I can always use a little more CNW
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > power.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > GBWHS Newsletter Editor
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9799
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Unfortunately, the International drawing
Ray posted from HOSeeker doesn’t show a bottom view of the gear boxes.
The distance between the spur gears and the motor and gear box appears about
right plus there is no provision for a drive shaft indicating the use of tubing.
So far it looks possible but I would like to see photos of the International
and the 1958 – 59 era Varney drive mentioned by Don Staton. Wasn’t
Varney using plastic shells by 58 – 59? I could be confusing things here
as, after all, these aren’t ALCO’s. If they were, than this is a
updating of some earlier shells and anything could have been installed. But
somehow, it doesn’t look like it was “made to fit” which
leads me to again think Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of curmudgeon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009
14:20
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney
F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    I tend to agree.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I haven't seen the collar on the worm shaft that I can recall on Varneys, nor
the hose driveshaft.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
This is the one-piece housing:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker .org/assemblyexp losionvarney/ varneyf7abpg1. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and this is the multi-piece Varney:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker .org/assemblyexp losionvarney/ varney2060kf3195 1pg2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
There is no collar on the shaft, and a ball end with ears for the driveshaft.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The main gear is much closer to the housing on a Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Close.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Maybe a copy, maybe made to order by Varney for someone else.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Possibly Varney but reworked a bit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I cannot imagine how badly those must run with hard plastic tube driveshafts!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Those look to me to be International Models drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    href="http://www.hoseeker.net/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg20.jpg">http://www.hoseeker .net/internation almodelinc/ internationalmod elincpg20. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- On Thu, 4/16/09, John Hagen <sprinthag@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: John Hagen <sprinthag@. ..>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 10:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hey guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Check out item 110377629550 on ebay. Its listed as a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Lindsay Alco (it's in a Lindsay box) but it is an A-B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > set of metal Varney 8 wheel gear drive F3's. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > No question they are Varney shells and frames but I am not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > certain about the drives. I can't make out the name on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the gear box cover plates and they don't look like the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Varney's that I am used to seeing. Nor are they
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hobbytown and definitely not Lindsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > But it is a nice set for someone. Maybe even an old
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > GB&W guy like me. I can always use a little more CNW
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > power.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > GBWHS Newsletter Editor
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                     

 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9800
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: pop-ups
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have seen them popping up on all sort of sites which I have not had trouble with for a long time, I think they are addapting,(Resistence Is Futile).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "jim heckard" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] pop-ups
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 07:24:03 -0400

                                                                                                                                                                                    


 



                                                                                                                                                                                                Has any body else started receiving pop up messages when viewing the site ? It seems that every time I come into the site, to view anything,  a pop up shows up and this started to happen after the recent shut down by Yahoo.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 I have an Ad Aware program to eliminate pop ups and I don't receive them any other time until I come into the site.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

-- 

                                                                                                                                                                                     It's News. It's Reviews. It's Interviews. It's Free. What Are You Waiting For?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
www.movieline.com!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9801
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I think plastic shells, and plastic gearboxes, plastic gears.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Most of the Varney trucks I have at ready access say "Varney" on the bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I blew up one of the photos and it appears there are two lines on the bottom covers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Even the plastic truck units had ball-end joints, but the switcher was reversed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I gotta say, I certainly cannot recall seeing plastic tube driveshafts on a Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Unfortunately, the International drawing Ray posted from HOSeeker doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> show a bottom view of the gear boxes. The distance between the spur gears
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and the motor and gear box appears about right plus there is no provision
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> for a drive shaft indicating the use of tubing. So far it looks possible but
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I would like to see photos of the International and the 1958 - 59 era Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> drive mentioned by Don Staton. Wasn't Varney using plastic shells by 58 -
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 59? I could be confusing things here as, after all, these aren't ALCO's. If
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> they were, than this is a updating of some earlier shells and anything could
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have been installed. But somehow, it doesn't look like it was "made to fit"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> which leads me to again think Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of curmudgeon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 14:20
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I tend to agree.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I haven't seen the collar on the worm shaft that I can recall on Varneys,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> nor the hose driveshaft.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> This is the one-piece housing:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.hoseeker
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosionvarney/varneyf7abpg1.jpg>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> .org/assemblyexplosionvarney/varneyf7abpg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and this is the multi-piece Varney:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.hoseeker
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosionvarney/varney2060kf31951pg2.jpg>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> .org/assemblyexplosionvarney/varney2060kf31951pg2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> There is no collar on the shaft, and a ball end with ears for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> driveshaft.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The main gear is much closer to the housing on a Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Close.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Maybe a copy, maybe made to order by Varney for someone else.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Possibly Varney but reworked a bit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I cannot imagine how badly those must run with hard plastic tube
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> driveshafts!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Those look to me to be International Models drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.hoseeker
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <http://www.hoseeker.net/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg20.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > .net/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg20.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- On Thu, 4/16/09, John Hagen <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > From: John Hagen <sprinthag@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 10:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Hey guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Check out item 110377629550 on ebay. Its listed as a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Lindsay Alco (it's in a Lindsay box) but it is an A-B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > set of metal Varney 8 wheel gear drive F3's. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > No question they are Varney shells and frames but I am not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > certain about the drives. I can't make out the name on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > the gear box cover plates and they don't look like the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Varney's that I am used to seeing. Nor are they
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Hobbytown and definitely not Lindsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > But it is a nice set for someone. Maybe even an old
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > GB&W guy like me. I can always use a little more CNW
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > power.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > GBWHS Newsletter Editor
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9802
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    You want a REAL blast, look at this International E-7, with pulleys and spring belt drive (like Varneys)!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.org/internationalmodelinc/impe7aunitdiagram.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And HERE is the International drive, with collars on the worm shafts, and a plastic tube driveshaft, no less, upper right:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.org/internationalmodelinc/internationalcatalog1954pg07.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Unfortunately, the International drawing Ray posted from HOSeeker doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> show a bottom view of the gear boxes. The distance between the spur gears
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and the motor and gear box appears about right plus there is no provision
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> for a drive shaft indicating the use of tubing. So far it looks possible but
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I would like to see photos of the International and the 1958 - 59 era Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> drive mentioned by Don Staton. Wasn't Varney using plastic shells by 58 -
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 59? I could be confusing things here as, after all, these aren't ALCO's. If
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> they were, than this is a updating of some earlier shells and anything could
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have been installed. But somehow, it doesn't look like it was "made to fit"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> which leads me to again think Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of curmudgeon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 14:20
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I tend to agree.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I haven't seen the collar on the worm shaft that I can recall on Varneys,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> nor the hose driveshaft.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> This is the one-piece housing:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.hoseeker
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosionvarney/varneyf7abpg1.jpg>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> .org/assemblyexplosionvarney/varneyf7abpg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and this is the multi-piece Varney:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.hoseeker
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosionvarney/varney2060kf31951pg2.jpg>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> .org/assemblyexplosionvarney/varney2060kf31951pg2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> There is no collar on the shaft, and a ball end with ears for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> driveshaft.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The main gear is much closer to the housing on a Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Close.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Maybe a copy, maybe made to order by Varney for someone else.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Possibly Varney but reworked a bit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I cannot imagine how badly those must run with hard plastic tube
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> driveshafts!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Those look to me to be International Models drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.hoseeker
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <http://www.hoseeker.net/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg20.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > .net/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg20.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- On Thu, 4/16/09, John Hagen <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > From: John Hagen <sprinthag@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 10:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Hey guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Check out item 110377629550 on ebay. Its listed as a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Lindsay Alco (it's in a Lindsay box) but it is an A-B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > set of metal Varney 8 wheel gear drive F3's. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > No question they are Varney shells and frames but I am not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > certain about the drives. I can't make out the name on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > the gear box cover plates and they don't look like the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Varney's that I am used to seeing. Nor are they
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Hobbytown and definitely not Lindsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > But it is a nice set for someone. Maybe even an old
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > GB&W guy like me. I can always use a little more CNW
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > power.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > GBWHS Newsletter Editor
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9803
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Here's a good one of an International FT:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.org/internationalmodelinc/internationalcatalog1954pg04.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Unfortunately, the International drawing Ray posted from HOSeeker doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> show a bottom view of the gear boxes. The distance between the spur gears
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and the motor and gear box appears about right plus there is no provision
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> for a drive shaft indicating the use of tubing. So far it looks possible but
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I would like to see photos of the International and the 1958 - 59 era Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> drive mentioned by Don Staton. Wasn't Varney using plastic shells by 58 -
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 59? I could be confusing things here as, after all, these aren't ALCO's. If
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> they were, than this is a updating of some earlier shells and anything could
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have been installed. But somehow, it doesn't look like it was "made to fit"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> which leads me to again think Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of curmudgeon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 14:20
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I tend to agree.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I haven't seen the collar on the worm shaft that I can recall on Varneys,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> nor the hose driveshaft.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> This is the one-piece housing:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.hoseeker
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosionvarney/varneyf7abpg1.jpg>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> .org/assemblyexplosionvarney/varneyf7abpg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and this is the multi-piece Varney:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.hoseeker
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosionvarney/varney2060kf31951pg2.jpg>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> .org/assemblyexplosionvarney/varney2060kf31951pg2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> There is no collar on the shaft, and a ball end with ears for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> driveshaft.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The main gear is much closer to the housing on a Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Close.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Maybe a copy, maybe made to order by Varney for someone else.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Possibly Varney but reworked a bit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I cannot imagine how badly those must run with hard plastic tube
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> driveshafts!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Those look to me to be International Models drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.hoseeker
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <http://www.hoseeker.net/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg20.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > .net/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg20.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- On Thu, 4/16/09, John Hagen <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > From: John Hagen <sprinthag@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 10:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Hey guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Check out item 110377629550 on ebay. Its listed as a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Lindsay Alco (it's in a Lindsay box) but it is an A-B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > set of metal Varney 8 wheel gear drive F3's. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > No question they are Varney shells and frames but I am not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > certain about the drives. I can't make out the name on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > the gear box cover plates and they don't look like the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Varney's that I am used to seeing. Nor are they
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Hobbytown and definitely not Lindsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > But it is a nice set for someone. Maybe even an old
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > GB&W guy like me. I can always use a little more CNW
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > power.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > GBWHS Newsletter Editor
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9804
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                       Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
I just popped in for a little while before leaving again but had to 
reply. I haven't had time to read all the Emails and someone else might 
have already replied. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             I 
really think the photo you talk about having no wires going from the tender to 
the boiler  was doctored/retouched. My reasoning is this.The plastic 
drivers would make it very hard (but not impossible) to have any pick up in 
the engine. While the leading and trailing truck could be used but again it 
would be hard. Also if the entire electrical pick up was in the engine it would 
need to have two halves isolated from each other to accomplish this. Since the 
ad said 1959 it was way before the last version came out, with the engine only 
electrical pick up as I just described and the tender along for the 
ride. While numerous engines from other companies used this all engine pick up 
it wouldn't have been that first run Athearn. It would have needed wires from 
the tender and they just didn't show them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               I would 
appreciate clarification on something you wrote about having two 0-6-0 
Athearn engines and then went on to a description of the two. What you 
described was two of the three types of the early Athearn Pacifics. Check the 
photos I previously sent. I don't have any knowledge of any changes to the 
Athearn 0-6-0's. I only know of one version. Did you happen to mean 4-6-2 and 
wrote 0-6-0 when you wrote the message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         If what you stated is 
right and you are talking about the Athearn 0-6-0 I would appreciate very much 
if you send pictures. Thanks for your information.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:24 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early 
  Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    For information only. The summer issue of Model Trains dated 1959 has a 
  full page ad from Athearn that showcased the new 4-6-2 in HO available at your 
  dealer in Kit form at 9.95 or ready to run at 14.95. The engine is 
  powered by HI-F drive, quoting the ad. The engine is plastic drivered and had 
  no wires displayed between the tender and engine which would be expected if 
  the motor was in the boiler. Although an arguement can be made the wires were 
  puposely  omitted. To  add a little more mystery to this thread I 
  have two 0-6-0 in my possesion which have entirely different bottom plates and 
  driver set up. One has no gear with the white strip around the driver axles 
  and a smooth bottom plate while the other has gearing and a cut out machined 
  on the plate to allow it rotation. I'll see if I can get photos on line 
  by the weekend.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don


                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 9:43 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: 
  Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        Sorry I forgot to reply to the 
  first part of your Email. Your sentence about "throw big passenger type 
  drivers into it" reinforces my thoughts. Athearn engineers would have realized 
  this mistake quickly and why I feel they shifted to other prototypes that also 
  didn't make it. Also goes back to Athearn being very frugal. He would have 
  seen it was folly to follow up on this idea. I doubt he would have thrown 
  money at it in an attempt to get it going. I don't think it would have taken 2 
  years from the time he first announced a Hi-F RBD  ( no matter what the 
  set up was) to the actual release of a geared Pacific to come to that 
  decision. He was smarter then that. And while these geared Pacifics were not 
  they best performers it came down to money again as he had to get something 
  out on the market because he had promised one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:01 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early 
    Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    I am puzzled as to why they would even try.
                                                                                                                                                                                    I had plenty of 
    experience with HiF diseasemals in the 50-'s and 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Imagine, the slip 
    we had with the band on the main shaft with small diameter wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Now, 
    throw big passenger-type drivers into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    The rubber bands must have had 
    a life expectancy measured in minutes.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Now, that said, and thinking 
    about this........ maybe I'm more off in the noggin than I want to 
    admit, but I recall someone who had one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    I actually THINK I held it, back 
    in Southern California, probably 59 or early 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    What I distinctly 
    recall was the royal pain it was to change the belts.

                                                                                                                                                                                    When I saw it, 
    it was not running due to belt failure.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The owner said (and for all I 
    know, it was Colonel Bragg in North Anaheim/South Fullerton), you had to 
    remove the boiler, motor, shaft, siderods, some kind of bottom cover, 
    drivers, and hope you got it all back together correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    There was also 
    a hobby shop on Brookhurst north of the Riverside Freeway, at the 
    intersection with Orangethrope, nice guy in a wheelchair ran it, may have 
    been him.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I had 2 of the Lil' Monsters (0-4-2T), and still have parts 
    of one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Those were probably the bigest disappointement of any model 
    railroad item I ever owned.

                                                                                                                                                                                    And, in all those years, I don't recall 
    ever owning or even seeing the 0-6-0 with separate tender, unless I did and 
    thought it was Lionel or maybe Revell.

                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As I have 
    consistently said I am searching for the truth. What you wrote in the first 
    paragraph (well stated) is what I feel could have been based on what other 
    people, especially at Athearn, have said. I didn't write the words and why I 
    ask the questions at the start.. Looking for input.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have just 
    tried to point out what I read. Some of the wording could be the same thing 
    like RBD vs. Belt Drive. But the fact I pointed out, and as written in 
    Greenberg's Athearn book, concerning an interview and the way it is written 
    suggest to me that two different pre -geared, pre- production designs were 
    tried for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As for what became a standard belt drive style for 
    later Lionel Ho is the story behind a collaboration between Athearn and 
    Lionel at the same time as the failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > So yes I have been 
    led to the beliefs you state so well. You're ability to put things down in 
    less words is better then mine. Now I must seek to prove or disprove this 
    with ads or write ups, Athearn books, stories and other types of 
    information. That is why I wanted seek out any possible concrete evidence, 
    either way, from what I present. A sample or birds eye view of one would be 
    best. Till then correct and tear apart where I have gone. I got to this 
    point by what has been in print not my guessing . This is not a way to 
    ruffle any feathers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message 
    ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: 
    [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > OK, as I understand 
    it, you believe there to be three (or at least three) pre-geared, 
    pre-production designs for the Pacific: (1) A completely self-contained Hi-F 
    rubber band drive in the tender with free rolling locomotive chassis, (2) a 
    Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic 
    drivers as stated in an interview and (3) a "O Ring Drive" much like the 
    Lionel engine that you showed in the attachment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I am using 
    the term "O Ring Drive" as that is what it is, using "belt" vs. rubber 
    "bands" confuses me as folks often interchange the terms. However the use of 
    the word "belt" may have also have referred to an "O Ring Drive" back then, 
    too, as was used by Lionel, that is what you are considering version # 
    3.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > So we should be looking for any references, or models, 
    that will support (or run counter to your theories). I will start searching 
    for clues later tonight. But first, I have a meeting to go to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay W. (BTW, for those who do not know it, the story of how the 
    young man, Robert Smith, came to Athearn with his patented rubber band drive 
    is on page 35 of the Mallerich Athearn book.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
    "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > W Jay W, Ray 
    M, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I will explain the pictures I sent shortly. To send them 
    I only know how to create an entire new Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
    This attempt to put information together is only to get at the truth as to 
    the type or possible TYPES of prototype Athearn tried to develop a good 
    working Pacific. I fully agree Athearn was a frugal man and didn't like to 
    waste money. I think this whole fiasco was Athearn (be it Mr. or Athearn the 
    company and it's people) had put a lot of money out in pre advance 
    advertisement, had already had packaging material ready (although with 
    misprints on them which I already pointed out in a separate Email) and he 
    had a lot on the line as Lionel was involved who also had catalogs showing 
    the engine that wasn't available (and never would be). I hope you just read 
    the Email that I sent this morning about information gleaned from the 
    Greenberg Athearn Guide. As I said the information was taken from an 
    INTERVIEW ( Athearn or Athearn the company. I'm not sure). I say it's very 
    contradictory as it mentions trouble with the Hi-F rubber band drive IN THE 
    TENDER". It then goes on to t! alk about highly detailed plastic DRIVERS 
    that sounds like they lost their traction on the rails. Unless something is 
    missing or I don't understand it this paragraph is talking about TWO 
    different prototypes ( one with tender drive , one with the more normal 
    drive in the engine hence the slipping drivers mentioned, neither of which 
    worked.) It was not an effort to confuse what was actually going on but 
    Athearn's (Mr. or he company) attempt to get something out on the market. 
    Again the above information was told to someone in an interview by Athearn 
    (Mr. and or Company people). NOT MY WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > With 
    that said I am proposing a POSSIBLE 3rd prototype ( assuming there was more 
    then one and information above seems to suggest it) that was tried and 
    didn't work well and was never brought out. That is where the pictures 
    attached come into play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > These pictures are of a 
    Lionel 2-4-2 steam engine that was marketed. I would like you to notice the 
    drive called a "Belt Drive. As I get into this remember Athearn designers in 
    an interview use the words "belt drive" for their prototype failed 
    Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > The story I have about this engine goes 
    back to Athearn. It was exactly around the time Athearn was struggling to 
    get a working Hi-F RBD Pacific engine to work as he promised. The 
    information I have from a number of different sources about this particular 
    engine is that it was a collaboration ( just like the E-33 electric ) 
    between Athearn and Lionel. The first PROTOTYPE / MOCK UP had an Athearn 
    motor for drive and used this skinny "O"ring drive with pulleys on a shaft 
    geared to the drivers ( a rubber band would provide terrible performance for 
    traction in this type of set up) This to me is a "band driven" engine. This 
    engine was in design mode at the same time Athearn was having his own 
    problem, 1958-1960. This engine also had very poor performance. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I have to look at this plus other information I have put 
    out and people send along with the "possibility" that some might have a 
    sample and come to a conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Unless someone 
    can come out with more concrete information or pictures to change my way of 
    thinking I have started to believe there had to be a couple of prototype 
    that Athearn tried. (1) A Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender as stated in 
    an interview. (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor 
    traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview (3). a "Band Drive" 
    much like this Lionel engine that was a collaboration with Athearn at the 
    same time he was having trouble with is Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
    I leave the decision up to the jury, unless anyone can produce solid 
    evidence otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9805
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  
  

 
The cast loco frames are Varney.  The gear boxes are similar to
Varney if they are not Varney.  Some of the people I knew that had
Varney like these did not like the drive shaft arrangement.  This looks
like an altered drive shaft arrangement to me but it could be by
another manufacturer.  It could be the first owner did not like the
drive arrangement and altered it or had it altered.  We have learned a
lot about how to transfer power between driven trucks since Varnery
made their cast metal F3.  In the old days we had to use rubber tubing
that could flex some lengthwise.  The tubing shown is plastic and
obviously new.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
These bodies and frames are the first Varney F3 diesels.  Later they
were plastic with a different drive arrangement.  I received mine in
'58-'59 and traded them in the early sixties.  The railroads I like
didn't have F3 diesels.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The later drive had the wheels pressed onto the axles and were not
removable unless you pulled the wheels and gears off the axle to get
the axle out of the cast truck frame.  They were not fun to repair.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
This looks like another good discussion.  It would be interesting to
own these units to see if they could be as good as I remember my locos
being.  I definitely would replace the tube shaft with a sliding shaft
arrangement.  I have done that many times with square, telescoping
tubing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Unfortunately,
the International drawing
Ray posted from HOSeeker doesn’t show a bottom view of the gear boxes.
The distance between the spur gears and the motor and gear box appears
about
right plus there is no provision for a drive shaft indicating the use
of tubing.
So far it looks possible but I would like to see photos of the
International
and the 1958 – 59 era Varney drive mentioned by Don Staton. Wasn’t
Varney using plastic shells by 58 – 59? I could be confusing things
here
as, after all, these aren’t ALCO’s. If they were, than this is a
updating of some earlier shells and anything could have been installed.
But
somehow, it doesn’t look like it was “made to fit” which
leads me to again think Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western
Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western
Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
[mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of curmudgeon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Sent: Thursday, April
16, 2009
14:20
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Subject: [vintageHO]
Re: Varney
F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I tend to agree.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I haven't seen the collar on the worm shaft that I can recall on
Varneys, nor
the hose driveshaft.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
This is the one-piece housing:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  http://www.hoseeker .org/assemblyexp losionvarney/ varneyf7abpg1. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and this is the multi-piece Varney:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  http://www.hoseeker .org/assemblyexp losionvarney/ varney2060kf3195 1pg2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
There is no collar on the shaft, and a ball end with ears for the
driveshaft.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The main gear is much closer to the housing on a Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Close.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Maybe a copy, maybe made to order by Varney for someone else.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Possibly Varney but reworked a bit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I cannot imagine how badly those must run with hard plastic tube
driveshafts!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Those look to me to be International Models drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.hoseeker .net/internation almodelinc/ internationalmod elincpg20. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- On Thu, 4/16/09, John Hagen <sprinthag@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: John Hagen <sprinthag@. ..>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 10:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hey guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Check out item 110377629550 on ebay. Its listed as a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Lindsay Alco (it's in a Lindsay box) but it is an A-B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > set of metal Varney 8 wheel gear drive F3's. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > No question they are Varney shells and frames but I am not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > certain about the drives. I can't make out the name on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the gear box cover plates and they don't look like the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Varney's that I am used to seeing. Nor are they
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hobbytown and definitely not Lindsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > But it is a nice set for someone. Maybe even an old
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > GB&W guy like me. I can always use a little more CNW
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > power.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > GBWHS Newsletter Editor
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9806
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Now that drawing (link below) shows the
bushing and the shape of the gear box covers. And they both look like the
photos on ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    I would have to say they look to be an
International drives going by the information presently at hand. Not that what I
say means all that much. Ask my wife.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of curmudgeon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009
15:52
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney
F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     



                                                                                                                                                                                    
And HERE is the International drive, with collars on the worm shafts, and a
plastic tube driveshaft, no less, upper right:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker .org/internation almodelinc/ internationalcat alog1954pg07. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9807
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Again no gear box covers in the drawing
but the gear boxes are the right shape. If they are International drives, they
are “Without doubt  -  the finest power unit ever produced  -  any where.”
It says so right there in the ad.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of curmudgeon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009
15:54
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney
F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9808
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The individual parts breakdown of these trucks does, in fact, show a 2-screw mounted lower cover.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The drawing you are commenting on, doesn't show any drivers, either!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
But, take a look at the other two drawings, they show the breakdown with covers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Again no gear box covers in the drawing but the gear boxes are the right
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> shape. If they are International drives, they are "Without doubt  -  the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> finest power unit ever produced  -  any where." It says so right there in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the ad.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of curmudgeon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 15:54
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Here's a good one of an International FT:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.hoseeker
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <http://www.hoseeker.org/internationalmodelinc/internationalcatalog1954pg04.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> jpg> .org/internationalmodelinc/internationalcatalog1954pg04.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9809
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Bit then the ad also states that the
locomotives weights are “made to look like generators”. Now I know
my eyesight ain’t what it used to be but that sure looks more like a
Diesel engine to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have never seen an International FT set.
Looks like it did have the correct truck placement, something a few other
manufacturers didn’t bother with. Just slap the ol’ F7 drive right
in there; them HO foamers won’t notice.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John
Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor,
Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green
Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009
16:13
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re:
Varney F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Again no gear box covers in the drawing
but the gear boxes are the right shape. If they are International drives, they
are “Without doubt  -  the finest power unit ever
produced  -  any where.” It says so right there in the ad.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western
Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9810
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    You mean you had Varneys with a flexible tubing driveshaft?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Every one I've seen uses a metal tube (later plastic) with slots to fit over the ears of the ball on the end of the worm shafts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Varney shell, Varney frame, but not Varney drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
They didn't have that collar on the worm shaft, and the main gear was much closer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Collars, flexible tubing driveshaft, main drive gear too far away from the motor block, looking at the drawings of International, it's International.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > /The cast loco frames are Varney.  The gear boxes are similar to Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> if they are not Varney.  Some of the people I knew that had Varney like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> these did not like the drive shaft arrangement.  This looks like an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> altered drive shaft arrangement to me but it could be by another 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> manufacturer.  It could be the first owner did not like the drive 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> arrangement and altered it or had it altered.  We have learned a lot 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> about how to transfer power between driven trucks since Varnery made 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> their cast metal F3.  In the old days we had to use rubber tubing that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> could flex some lengthwise.  The tubing shown is plastic and obviously new.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> These bodies and frames are the first Varney F3 diesels.  Later they 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> were plastic with a different drive arrangement.  I received mine in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> '58-'59 and traded them in the early sixties.  The railroads I like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> didn't have F3 diesels. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The later drive had the wheels pressed onto the axles and were not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> removable unless you pulled the wheels and gears off the axle to get the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> axle out of the cast truck frame.  They were not fun to repair.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> This looks like another good discussion.  It would be interesting to own 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> these units to see if they could be as good as I remember my locos 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> being.  I definitely would replace the tube shaft with a sliding shaft 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> arrangement.  I have done that many times with square, telescoping tubing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> =================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> /
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Unfortunately, the International drawing Ray posted from HOSeeker 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > doesn't show a bottom view of the gear boxes. The distance between the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > spur gears and the motor and gear box appears about right plus there 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > is no provision for a drive shaft indicating the use of tubing. So far 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > it looks possible but I would like to see photos of the International 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > and the 1958 -- 59 era Varney drive mentioned by Don Staton. Wasn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Varney using plastic shells by 58 -- 59? I could be confusing things 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > here as, after all, these aren't ALCO's. If they were, than this is a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > updating of some earlier shells and anything could have been 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > installed. But somehow, it doesn't look like it was "made to fit" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > which leads me to again think Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > *From:* vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > *On Behalf Of *curmudgeon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 16, 2009 14:20
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > *To:* vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > *Subject:* [vintageHO] Re: Varney F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I tend to agree.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I haven't seen the collar on the worm shaft that I can recall on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Varneys, nor the hose driveshaft.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > This is the one-piece housing:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosionvarney/varneyf7abpg1.jpg 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > <http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosionvarney/varneyf7abpg1.jpg>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > and this is the multi-piece Varney:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosionvarney/varney2060kf31951pg2.jpg 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > <http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosionvarney/varney2060kf31951pg2.jpg>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > There is no collar on the shaft, and a ball end with ears for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > driveshaft.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The main gear is much closer to the housing on a Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Close.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Maybe a copy, maybe made to order by Varney for someone else.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Possibly Varney but reworked a bit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I cannot imagine how badly those must run with hard plastic tube 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > driveshafts!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Those look to me to be International Models drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > http://www.hoseeker.net/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg20.jpg 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > <http://www.hoseeker.net/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg20.jpg>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > --- On Thu, 4/16/09, John Hagen <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > From: John Hagen <sprinthag@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 10:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Hey guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Check out item 110377629550 on ebay. Its listed as a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Lindsay Alco (it's in a Lindsay box) but it is an A-B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > set of metal Varney 8 wheel gear drive F3's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > No question they are Varney shells and frames but I am not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > certain about the drives. I can't make out the name on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > the gear box cover plates and they don't look like the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Varney's that I am used to seeing. Nor are they
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Hobbytown and definitely not Lindsay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > But it is a nice set for someone. Maybe even an old
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > GB&W guy like me. I can always use a little more CNW
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > power.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > GBWHS Newsletter Editor
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9811
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    !!! JIM H !!!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    It looks like I found some new information, and what they meant by "drivers" slipping.  Read carefully! The date is early 1959.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    "Irv Athearn had good reason to smile when we wandered into his room.  Sitting out in bold view was his spanking new Boston & Maine 4-6-2 which should start shipping to dealers in May, if not earlier.  Detailing is outstanding.  Builder plates and other small detail stand up crisp and sharp."
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    "Despite the plastic boiler, the engine packs plenty of weight, having a cast metal piece running the legnth of the boiler.  The Wilson motor is used, same as in the Athearn Hi-F diesels.  And the drive is also a modification of the Hi-F drive.  Rubber bands transfer power from the drive shaft to round gearless "Gears" which transfer the power to the drivers by friction."  (my bold highlight)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    "The new Athearn Pacific will pull a string of 15 freight cars without difficulty.  Athearn will offer the locomotive in kit form at $9.95 It'll also be available RTR (ready to run) at $14,95 probably with optional Eastern and Western road names."
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    "Design is basically a B&M P-4 such as seen in RMC for July 1956 (or page 44 of the new Penn Craft Steam locomotive Plan Manual) but less the shroud covering the sand domes.  Its a beautifully designed prototype and the model measures up to the real one."
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Wow, Jim, FRICTION DRIVE?! I bet when someone said slipping drivers, they most likely were refering to the slipping of the friction roller on the drive axle, ie. slipping drivers.  I had assumed they were talking of slipping at the rail as on the prototype. What do you think?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    These paragraphs appear in a report of the 1959 New York Toy Fair in the May 1959 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman, a 5 page illustrated feature article. The NY Toy Fair was held in February or March of each year back then, I believe.  The Athearn paragraphs, plus a nice photo of Irv himself holding a piece of track with a Pacific on it (tender lettered with large numerals "1392") appears on page 21.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'll look for more later, but finding this was pretty neat!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.   

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I just popped in for a little while before leaving again but had to reply. I haven't had time to read all the Emails and someone else might have already replied. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I really think the photo you talk about having no wires going from the tender to the boiler was doctored/retouched. My reasoning is this.The plastic drivers would make it very hard (but not impossible) to have any pick up in the engine. While the leading and trailing truck could be used but again it would be hard. Also if the entire electrical pick up was in the engine it would need to have two halves isolated from each other to accomplish this. Since the ad said 1959 it was way before the last version came out, with the engine only electrical pick up as I just described and the tender along for the ride. While numerous engines from other companies used this all engine pick up it wouldn't have been that first run Athearn. It would have needed wires from the tender and they just didn't show them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I would appreciate clarification on something you wrote about having two 0-6-0 Athearn engines and then went on to a description of the two. What you described was two of the three types of the early Athearn Pacifics. Check the photos I previously sent. I don't have any knowledge of any changes to the Athearn 0-6-0's. I only know of one version. Did you happen to mean 4-6-2 and wrote 0-6-0 when you wrote the message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > If what you stated is right and you are talking about the Athearn 0-6-0 I would appreciate very much if you send pictures. Thanks for your information.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: Dst8596587@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > For information only. The summer issue of Model Trains dated 1959 has a full page ad from Athearn that showcased the new 4-6-2 in HO available at your dealer in Kit form at 9.95 or ready to run at 14.95. The engine is powered by HI-F drive, quoting the ad. The engine is plastic drivered and had no wires displayed between the tender and engine which would be expected if the motor was in the boiler. Although an arguement can be made the wires were puposely omitted. To add a little more mystery to this thread I have two 0-6-0 in my possesion which have entirely different bottom plates and driver set up. One has no gear with the white strip around the driver axles and a smooth bottom plate while the other has gearing and a cut out machined on the plate to allow it rotation. I'll see if I can get photos on line by the weekend. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: jim heckard jimheck@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 9:43 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sorry I forgot to reply to the first part of your Email. Your sentence about "throw big passenger type drivers into it" reinforces my thoughts. Athearn engineers would have realized this mistake quickly and why I feel they shifted to other prototypes that also didn't make it. Also goes back to Athearn being very frugal. He would have seen it was folly to follow up on this idea. I doubt he would have thrown money at it in an attempt to get it going. I don't think it would have taken 2 years from the time he first announced a Hi-F RBD ( no matter what the set up was) to the actual release of a geared Pacific to come to that decision. He was smarter then that. And while these geared Pacifics were not they best performers it came down to money again as he had to get something out on the market because he had promised one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > .
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I am puzzled as to why they would even try.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I had plenty of experience with HiF diseasemals in the 50-'s and 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Imagine, the slip we had with the band on the main shaft with small diameter wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Now, throw big passenger-type drivers into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The rubber bands must have had a life expectancy measured in minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Now, that said, and thinking about this........maybe I'm more off in the noggin than I want to admit, but I recall someone who had one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I actually THINK I held it, back in Southern California, probably 59 or early 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > What I distinctly recall was the royal pain it was to change the belts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > When I saw it, it was not running due to belt failure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The owner said (and for all I know, it was Colonel Bragg in North Anaheim/South Fullerton), you had to remove the boiler, motor, shaft, siderods, some kind of bottom cover, drivers, and hope you got it all back together correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > There was also a hobby shop on Brookhurst north of the Riverside Freeway, at the intersection with Orangethrope, nice guy in a wheelchair ran it, may have been him.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I had 2 of the Lil' Monsters (0-4-2T), and still have parts of one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Those were probably the bigest disappointement of any model railroad item I ever owned.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > And, in all those years, I don't recall ever owning or even seeing the 0-6-0 with separate tender, unless I did and thought it was Lionel or maybe Revell.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > As I have consistently said I am searching for the truth. What you wrote in the first paragraph (well stated) is what I feel could have been based on what other people, especially at Athearn, have said. I didn't write the words and why I ask the questions at the start.. Looking for input.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I have just tried to point out what I read. Some of the wording could be the same thing like RBD vs. Belt Drive. But the fact I pointed out, and as written in Greenberg's Athearn book, concerning an interview and the way it is written suggest to me that two different pre -geared, pre- production designs were tried for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > As for what became a standard belt drive style for later Lionel Ho is the story behind a collaboration between Athearn and Lionel at the same time as the failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > So yes I have been led to the beliefs you state so well. You're ability to put things down in less words is better then mine. Now I must seek to prove or disprove this with ads or write ups, Athearn books, stories and other types of information. That is why I wanted seek out any possible concrete evidence, either way, from what I present. A sample or birds eye view of one would be best. Till then correct and tear apart where I have gone. I got to this point by what has been in print not my guessing . This is not a way to ruffle any feathers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > OK, as I understand it, you believe there to be three (or at least three) pre-geared, pre-production designs for the Pacific: (1) A completely self-contained Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender with free rolling locomotive chassis, (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview and (3) a "O Ring Drive" much like the Lionel engine that you showed in the attachment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I am using the term "O Ring Drive" as that is what it is, using "belt" vs. rubber "bands" confuses me as folks often interchange the terms. However the use of the word "belt" may have also have referred to an "O Ring Drive" back then, too, as was used by Lionel, that is what you are considering version # 3.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > So we should be looking for any references, or models, that will support (or run counter to your theories). I will start searching for clues later tonight. But first, I have a meeting to go to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > W Jay W. (BTW, for those who do not know it, the story of how the young man, Robert Smith, came to Athearn with his patented rubber band drive is on page 35 of the Mallerich Athearn book.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > W Jay W, Ray M, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I will explain the pictures I sent shortly. To send them I only know how to create an entire new Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > This attempt to put information together is only to get at the truth as to the type or possible TYPES of prototype Athearn tried to develop a good working Pacific. I fully agree Athearn was a frugal man and didn't like to waste money. I think this whole fiasco was Athearn (be it Mr. or Athearn the company and it's people) had put a lot of money out in pre advance advertisement, had already had packaging material ready (although with misprints on them which I already pointed out in a separate Email) and he had a lot on the line as Lionel was involved who also had catalogs showing the engine that wasn't available (and never would be). I hope you just read the Email that I sent this morning about information gleaned from the Greenberg Athearn Guide. As I said the information was taken from an INTERVIEW ( Athearn or Athearn the company. I'm not sure). I say it's very contradictory as it mentions trouble with the Hi-F rubber band drive IN THE TENDER". It then goes on to t! alk about highly detailed plastic DRIVERS that sounds like they lost their traction on the rails. Unless something is missing or I don't understand it this paragraph is talking about TWO different prototypes ( one with tender drive , one with the more normal drive in the engine hence the slipping drivers mentioned, neither of which worked.) It was not an effort to confuse what was actually going on but Athearn's (Mr. or he company) attempt to get something out on the market. Again the above information was told to someone in an interview by Athearn (Mr. and or Company people). NOT MY WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > With that said I am proposing a POSSIBLE 3rd prototype ( assuming there was more then one and information above seems to suggest it) that was tried and didn't work well and was never brought out. That is where the pictures attached come into play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > These pictures are of a Lionel 2-4-2 steam engine that was marketed. I would like you to notice the drive called a "Belt Drive. As I get into this remember Athearn designers in an interview use the words "belt drive" for their prototype failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > The story I have about this engine goes back to Athearn. It was exactly around the time Athearn was struggling to get a working Hi-F RBD Pacific engine to work as he promised. The information I have from a number of different sources about this particular engine is that it was a collaboration ( just like the E-33 electric ) between Athearn and Lionel. The first PROTOTYPE / MOCK UP had an Athearn motor for drive and used this skinny "O"ring drive with pulleys on a shaft geared to the drivers ( a rubber band would provide terrible performance for traction in this type of set up) This to me is a "band driven" engine. This engine was in design mode at the same time Athearn was having his own problem, 1958-1960. This engine also had very poor performance. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I have to look at this plus other information I have put out and people send along with the "possibility" that some might have a sample and come to a conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Unless someone can come out with more concrete information or pictures to change my way of thinking I have started to believe there had to be a couple of prototype that Athearn tried. (1) A Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender as stated in an interview. (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview (3). a "Band Drive" much like this Lionel engine that was a collaboration with Athearn at the same time he was having trouble with is Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I leave the decision up to the jury, unless anyone can produce solid evidence otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Great deals on Dell's most popular laptops - Starting at $479
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9812
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, they certainly look like
International to me also. Can’t see what else they could possibly be.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Maybe when I get up to Appleton/Green bay a
week from Saturday for the Titletown Train Show I can talk my brother into
digging out his F3. He has a 1948 – 49 8 wheel gear drive F3A and a 4
wheel gear drive F3B. I can’t remember for certain but I think the A
units drives are connected by a rubber tube (probably rotted away by now). I’ll
let you know if I get a look.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of curmudgeon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009
16:23
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney
F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    You mean you had Varneys with a flexible tubing
driveshaft?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Every one I've seen uses a metal tube (later plastic) with slots to fit over
the ears of the ball on the end of the worm shafts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Varney shell, Varney frame, but not Varney drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
They didn't have that collar on the worm shaft, and the main gear was much
closer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Collars, flexible tubing driveshaft, main drive gear too far away from the
motor block, looking at the drawings of International, it's International.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9813
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Just a further clarification.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The Int'l drawing that omits the bottom cover AND drivers, the part numbers of the front and rear gearboxes are 2131 and 2132.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The individual breakdown of trucks shown here has part numbers 2131 and 2132 for the front and rear gearboxes:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.org/internationalmodelinc/internationalcatalog1954pg07.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have a few Varney F-3's, and the spring drive units, not sure as none are 8-wheel, but the earlier and later ones use solid drive shafts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Yes, they certainly look like International to me also. Can't see what else
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> they could possibly be.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Maybe when I get up to Appleton/Green bay a week from Saturday for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Titletown Train Show I can talk my brother into digging out his F3. He has a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1948 - 49 8 wheel gear drive F3A and a 4 wheel gear drive F3B. I can't
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> remember for certain but I think the A units drives are connected by a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> rubber tube (probably rotted away by now). I'll let you know if I get a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> look.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of curmudgeon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 16:23
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney F3's on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You mean you had Varneys with a flexible tubing driveshaft?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Every one I've seen uses a metal tube (later plastic) with slots to fit over
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the ears of the ball on the end of the worm shafts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Varney shell, Varney frame, but not Varney drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> They didn't have that collar on the worm shaft, and the main gear was much
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> closer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Collars, flexible tubing driveshaft, main drive gear too far away from the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> motor block, looking at the drawings of International, it's International.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9814
						From: Dst8596587@aol.com
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I included the reference to no wires because thier absence is so obivious that any one seeing the photo could have thought there was a HI-F (RBD) drive in the tender. This sounds very plausible given the construction of the tender axles on the early model. However I have never, and I would be surprised if anyone has, seen a tender frame that was machined to allow that type operation. I am aware of the three versions and have two versions in the basement, With the motor in the boiler the engine would have required the wires as you indicated. I did mention that the wires could have been purposely omittted. Although my primary interest is brass this engine has always interested me due to the fact it was built by the Lima Locomotives Works,  The locomotive works would have been in my grandmothers backyard if the Baltimore and Ohio hadn't intervened. I try to purchase engines that were built by Lima and!
 have a quite a zoo in the basement. The Athearn Boston and Maine P-4 was the only model, to my knowledge, ever produced of this engine. Sakura advertised a brass model in the early to mid 60's but I have never seen one or heard of anyone having one .  As soon as my wife will allow me to borrow my camera I'll get some photos of the 0-6-0. She is presently at a basket weaving seminar in Indiana and will return Saturday. Very informative thread. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 4:03 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                       Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                   I just popped in for a little while before leaving again but had to reply. I haven't had time to read all the Emails and someone else might have already replied. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                             I really think the photo you talk about having no wires going from the tender to the boiler  was doctored/retouched. My reasoning is this.The plastic drivers would make it very hard (but not impossible) to have any pick up in the engine. While the leading and trailing truck could be used but again it would be hard. Also if the entire electrical pick up was in the engine it would need to have two halves isolated from each other to accomplish this. Since the ad said 1959 it was way before the last version came out, with the engine only electrical pick up as I just described and the tender along for the ride. While numerous engines from other companies used this all engine pick up it wouldn't have been that first run Athearn. It would have needed wires from the tender and they just didn't show them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                               I would appreciate clarification on something you wrote about having two 0-6-0 Athearn engines and then went on to a description of the two. What you described was two of the three types of the early Athearn Pacifics. Check the photos I previously sent. I don't have any knowledge of any changes to the Athearn 0-6-0's. I only know of one version. Did you happen to mean 4-6-2 and wrote 0-6-0 when you wrote the message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                         If what you stated is right and you are talking about the Athearn 0-6-0 I would appreciate very much if you send pictures. Thanks for your information.
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    









                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    For information only. The summer issue of Model Trains dated 1959 has a full page ad from Athearn that showcased the new 4-6-2 in HO available at your dealer in Kit form at 9.95 or ready to run at 14.95. The engine is powered by HI-F drive, quoting the ad. The engine is plastic drivered and had no wires displayed between the tender and engine which would be expected if the motor was in the boiler. Although an arguement can be made the wires were puposely  omitted. To  add a little more mystery to this thread I have two 0-6-0 in my possesion which have entirely different bottom plates and driver set up. One has no gear with the white strip around the driver axles and a smooth bottom plate while the other has gearing and a cut out machined on the plate to allow it rotation. I'll see if I can get photos on line by the weekend.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 9:43 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                        Sorry I forgot to reply to the first part of your Email. Your sentence about "throw big passenger type drivers into it" reinforces my thoughts. Athearn engineers would have realized this mistake quickly and why I feel they shifted to other prototypes that also didn't make it. Also goes back to Athearn being very frugal. He would have seen it was folly to follow up on this idea. I doubt he would have thrown money at it in an attempt to get it going. I don't think it would have taken 2 years from the time he first announced a Hi-F RBD  ( no matter what the set up was) to the actual release of a geared Pacific to come to that decision. He was smarter then that. And while these geared Pacifics were not they best performers it came down to money again as he had to get something out on the market because he had promised one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                     .
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    From: curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    






                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I am puzzled as to why they would even try.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I had plenty of experience with HiF diseasemals in the 50-'s and 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Imagine, the slip we had with the band on the main shaft with small diameter wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Now, throw big passenger-type drivers into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The rubber bands must have had a life expectancy measured in minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Now, that said, and thinking about this........ maybe I'm more off in the noggin than I want to admit, but I recall someone who had one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I actually THINK I held it, back in Southern California, probably 59 or early 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
What I distinctly recall was the royal pain it was to change the belts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
When I saw it, it was not running due to belt failure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The owner said (and for all I know, it was Colonel Bragg in North Anaheim/South Fullerton), you had to remove the boiler, motor, shaft, siderods, some kind of bottom cover, drivers, and hope you got it all back together correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
There was also a hobby shop on Brookhurst north of the Riverside Freeway, at the intersection with Orangethrope, nice guy in a wheelchair ran it, may have been him.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I had 2 of the Lil' Monsters (0-4-2T), and still have parts of one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Those were probably the bigest disappointement of any model railroad item I ever owned.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And, in all those years, I don't recall ever owning or even seeing the 0-6-0 with separate tender, unless I did and thought it was Lionel or maybe Revell.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> As I have consistently said I am searching for the truth. What you wrote in the first paragraph (well stated) is what I feel could have been based on what other people, especially at Athearn, have said. I didn't write the words and why I ask the questions at the start.. Looking for input.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have just tried to point out what I read. Some of the wording could be the same thing like RBD vs. Belt Drive. But the fact I pointed out, and as written in Greenberg's Athearn book, concerning an interview and the way it is written suggest to me that two different pre -geared, pre- production designs were tried for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> As for what became a standard belt drive style for later Lionel Ho is the story behind a collaboration between Athearn and Lionel at the same time as the failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> So yes I have been led to the beliefs you state so well. You're ability to put things down in less words is better then mine. Now I must seek to prove or disprove this with ads or write ups, Athearn books, stories and other types of information. That is why I wanted seek out any possible concrete evidence, either way, from what I present. A sample or birds eye view of one would be best. Till then correct and tear apart where I have gone. I got to this point by what has been in print not my guessing . This is not a way to ruffle any feathers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> OK, as I understand it, you believe there to be three (or at least three) pre-geared, pre-production designs for the Pacific: (1) A completely self-contained Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender with free rolling locomotive chassis, (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview and (3) a "O Ring Drive" much like the Lionel engine that you showed in the attachment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I am using the term "O Ring Drive" as that is what it is, using "belt" vs. rubber "bands" confuses me as folks often interchange the terms. However the use of the word "belt" may have also have referred to an "O Ring Drive" back then, too, as was used by Lionel, that is what you are considering version # 3.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> So we should be looking for any references, or models, that will support (or run counter to your theories). I will start searching for clues later tonight. But first, I have a meeting to go to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W. (BTW, for those who do not know it, the story of how the young man, Robert Smith, came to Athearn with his patented rubber band drive is on page 35 of the Mallerich Athearn book.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > W Jay W, Ray M, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I will explain the pictures I sent shortly. To send them I only know how to create an entire new Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > This attempt to put information together is only to get at the truth as to the type or possible TYPES of prototype Athearn tried to develop a good working Pacific. I fully agree Athearn was a frugal man and didn't like to waste money. I think this whole fiasco was Athearn (be it Mr. or Athearn the company and it's people) had put a lot of money out in pre advance advertisement, had already had packaging material ready (although with misprints on them which I already pointed out in a separate Email) and he had a lot on the line as Lionel was involved who also had catalogs showing the engine that wasn't available (and never would be). I hope you just read the Email that I sent this morning about information gleaned from the Greenberg Athearn Guide. As I said the information was taken from an INTERVIEW ( Athearn or Athearn the company. I'm not sure). I say it's very contradictory as it mentions trouble with the Hi-F rubber band drive IN THE TENDER". It then goes on to t!
! alk about highly detailed plastic DRIVERS that sounds like they lost their traction on the rails. Unless something is missing or I don't understand it this paragraph is talking about TWO different prototypes ( one with tender drive , one with the more normal drive in the engine hence the slipping drivers mentioned, neither of which worked.) It was not an effort to confuse what was actually going on but Athearn's (Mr. or he company) attempt to get something out on the market. Again the above information was told to someone in an interview by Athearn (Mr. and or Company people). NOT MY WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > With that said I am proposing a POSSIBLE 3rd prototype ( assuming there was more then one and information above seems to suggest it) that was tried and didn't work well and was never brought out. That is where the pictures attached come into play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > These pictures are of a Lionel 2-4-2 steam engine that was marketed. I would like you to notice the drive called a "Belt Drive. As I get into this remember Athearn designers in an interview use the words "belt drive" for their prototype failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The story I have about this engine goes back to Athearn. It was exactly around the time Athearn was struggling to get a working Hi-F RBD Pacific engine to work as he promised. The information I have from a number of different sources about this particular engine is that it was a collaboration ( just like the E-33 electric ) between Athearn and Lionel. The first PROTOTYPE / MOCK UP had an Athearn motor for drive and used this skinny "O"ring drive with pulleys on a shaft geared to the drivers ( a rubber band would provide terrible performance for traction in this type of set up) This to me is a "band driven" engine. This engine was in design mode at the same time Athearn was having his own problem, 1958-1960. This engine also had very poor performance. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I have to look at this plus other information I have put out and people send along with the "possibility" that some might have a sample and come to a conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Unless someone can come out with more concrete information or pictures to change my way of thinking I have started to believe there had to be a couple of prototype that Athearn tried. (1) A Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender as stated in an interview. (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview (3). a "Band Drive" much like this Lionel engine that was a collaboration with Athearn at the same time he was having trouble with is Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I leave the decision up to the jury, unless anyone can produce solid evidence otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    







                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9815
						From: Dst8596587@aol.com
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Lets stir the pot one more time. Lenahans's locomotive lexicon states that the Lionel 2-4-2 released in the same time frame as proposed for the 4-6-2 used the Athearn type motor and rubber band drive system. Because of the poor performance of this engine, Athearn redesigned the Pacific, which was being readied for production,  to a gear driven engine prior to its release. So was there a RBD drive 4-6-2, according to the RMC article there was at least one. There  also may have been a limited quanity produced prior to the redesign of the drive train considering the amount of advertising that seemed to be evident. It would stand to reason that Athearn would try to recall items if they were to result in subpar performance. So how many actually made it to the public? I can't answer that but if someone tells me they have an Athearn rubber band drive pacific I'll have to consider it possible. I believe the three roadnames used on this engine were the Boston and Maine, Baltimore and Ohio and ATSF.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 4:34 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    !!! JIM H !!!
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    It looks like I found some new information, and what they meant by "drivers" slipping.  Read carefully! The date is early 1959.
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    "Irv Athearn had good reason to smile when we wandered into his room.  Sitting out in bold view was his spanking new Boston & Maine 4-6-2 which should start shipping to dealers in May, if not earlier.  Detailing is outstanding.  Builder plates and other small detail stand up crisp and sharp."
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    "Despite the plastic boiler, the engine packs plenty of weight, having a cast metal piece running the legnth of the boiler.  The Wilson motor is used, same as in the Athearn Hi-F diesels.  And the drive is also a modification of the Hi-F drive.  Rubber bands transfer power from the drive shaft to round gearless "Gears" which transfer the power to the drivers by friction."  (my bold highlight)
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    "The new Athearn Pacific will pull a string of 15 freight cars without difficulty.  Athearn will offer the locomotive in kit form at $9.95 It'll also be available RTR (ready to run) at $14,95 probably with optional Eastern and Western road names."
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    "Design is basically a B&M P-4 such as seen in RMC for July 1956 (or page 44 of the new Penn Craft Steam locomotive Plan Manual) but less the shroud covering the sand domes.  Its a beautifully designed prototype and the model measures up to the real one."
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    Wow, Jim, FRICTION DRIVE?! I bet when someone said slipping drivers, they most likely were refering to the slipping of the friction roller on the drive axle, ie. slipping drivers.  I had assumed they were talking of slipping at the rail as on the prototype. What do you think?
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    These paragraphs appear in a report of the 1959 New York Toy Fair in the May 1959 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman, a 5 page illustrated feature article. The NY Toy Fair was held in February or March of each year back then, I believe.  The Athearn paragraphs, plus a nice photo of Irv himself holding a piece of track with a Pacific on it (tender lettered with large numerals "1392") appears on page 21.
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    I'll look for more later, but finding this was pretty neat!
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I just popped in for a little while before leaving again but had to reply. I haven't had time to read all the Emails and someone else might have already replied. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I really think the photo you talk about having no wires going from the tender to the boiler was doctored/retouched. My reasoning is this.The plastic drivers would make it very hard (but not impossible) to have any pick up in the engine. While the leading and trailing truck could be used but again it would be hard. Also if the entire electrical pick up was in the engine it would need to have two halves isolated from each other to accomplish this. Since the ad said 1959 it was way before the last version came out, with the engine only electrical pick up as I just described and the tender along for the ride. While numerous engines from other companies used this all engine pick up it wouldn't have been that first run Athearn. It would have needed wires from the tender and they just didn't show them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I would appreciate clarification on something you wrote about having two 0-6-0 Athearn engines and then went on to a description of the two. What you described was two of the three types of the early Athearn Pacifics. Check the photos I previously sent. I don't have any knowledge of any changes to the Athearn 0-6-0's. I only know of one version. Did you happen to mean 4-6-2 and wrote 0-6-0 when you wrote the message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> If what you stated is right and you are talking about the Athearn 0-6-0 I would appreciate very much if you send pictures. Thanks for your information.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: Dst8596587@. .. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> For information only. The summer issue of Model Trains dated 1959 has a full page ad from Athearn that showcased the new 4-6-2 in HO available at your dealer in Kit form at 9.95 or ready to run at 14.95. The engine is powered by HI-F drive, quoting the ad. The engine is plastic drivered and had no wires displayed between the tender and engine which would be expected if the motor was in the boiler. Although an arguement can be made the wires were puposely omitted. To add a little more mystery to this thread I have two 0-6-0 in my possesion which have entirely different bottom plates and driver set up. One has no gear with the white strip around the driver axles and a smooth bottom plate while the other has gearing and a cut out machined on the plate to allow it rotation. I'll see if I can get photos on line by the weekend. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: jim heckard jimheck@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 9:43 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sorry I forgot to reply to the first part of your Email. Your sentence about "throw big passenger type drivers into it" reinforces my thoughts. Athearn engineers would have realized this mistake quickly and why I feel they shifted to other prototypes that also didn't make it. Also goes back to Athearn being very frugal. He would have seen it was folly to follow up on this idea. I doubt he would have thrown money at it in an attempt to get it going. I don't think it would have taken 2 years from the time he first announced a Hi-F RBD ( no matter what the set up was) to the actual release of a geared Pacific to come to that decision. He was smarter then that. And while these geared Pacifics were not they best performers it came down to money again as he had to get something out on the market because he had promised one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I am puzzled as to why they would even try.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I had plenty of experience with HiF diseasemals in the 50-'s and 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Imagine, the slip we had with the band on the main shaft with small diameter wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Now, throw big passenger-type drivers into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The rubber bands must have had a life expectancy measured in minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Now, that said, and thinking about this........ maybe I'm more off in the noggin than I want to admit, but I recall someone who had one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I actually THINK I held it, back in Southern California, probably 59 or early 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> What I distinctly recall was the royal pain it was to change the belts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> When I saw it, it was not running due to belt failure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The owner said (and for all I know, it was Colonel Bragg in North Anaheim/South Fullerton), you had to remove the boiler, motor, shaft, siderods, some kind of bottom cover, drivers, and hope you got it all back together correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> There was also a hobby shop on Brookhurst north of the Riverside Freeway, at the intersection with Orangethrope, nice guy in a wheelchair ran it, may have been him.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I had 2 of the Lil' Monsters (0-4-2T), and still have parts of one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Those were probably the bigest disappointement of any model railroad item I ever owned.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> And, in all those years, I don't recall ever owning or even seeing the 0-6-0 with separate tender, unless I did and thought it was Lionel or maybe Revell.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > As I have consistently said I am searching for the truth. What you wrote in the first paragraph (well stated) is what I feel could have been based on what other people, especially at Athearn, have said. I didn't write the words and why I ask the questions at the start.. Looking for input.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> & gt; I have just tried to point out what I read. Some of the wording could be the same thing like RBD vs. Belt Drive. But the fact I pointed out, and as written in Greenberg's Athearn book, concerning an interview and the way it is written suggest to me that two different pre -geared, pre- production designs were tried for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > As for what became a standard belt drive style for later Lionel Ho is the story behind a collaboration between Athearn and Lionel at the same time as the failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > So yes I have been led to the beliefs you state so well. You're ability to put things down in less words is better then mine. Now I must seek to prove or disprove this with ads or write ups, Athearn books, stories and other types of information. That is why I wanted seek out any possible concrete evidence, either way, from what I present. A sample or birds eye view of one would be best. Till then correct and tear apart where I have gone. I got to this point by what has been in print not my guessing . This is not a way to ruffle any feathers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > OK, as I understand it, you believe there to be three (or at least three) pre-geared, pre-production designs for the Pacific: (1) A completely self-contained Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender with free rolling locomotive chassis, (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview and (3) a "O Ring Drive" much like the Lionel engine that you showed in the attachment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I am using the term "O Ring Drive" as that is what it is, using "belt" vs. rubber "bands" confuses me as folks oft en interchange the terms. However the use of the word "belt" may have also have referred to an "O Ring Drive" back then, too, as was used by Lionel, that is what you are considering version # 3.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > So we should be looking for any references, or models, that will support (or run counter to your theories). I will start searching for clues later tonight. But first, I have a meeting to go to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > W Jay W. (BTW, for those who do not know it, the story of how the young man, Robert Smith, came to Athearn with his patented rubber band drive is on page 35 of the Mallerich Athearn book.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > W Jay W, Ray M, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I will explain the pictures I sent shortly. To send them I only know how to create an entire new Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > This attempt to put information together is only to get at the truth as to the type or possible TYPES of prototype Athearn tried to develop a good working Pacific. I fully agree Athearn was a frugal man and didn't like to waste money. I think this whole fiasco was Athearn (be it Mr. or Athearn the company and it's people) had put a lot of money out in pre advance advertisement, had already had packaging material ready (although with misprints on them which I already pointed out in a separate Email) and he had a lot on the line as Lionel was involved who also had catalogs showing the engine that wasn't available (and never would be). I hope you just read the Email that I sent this morning about information gleaned from the Greenberg Athearn Guide. As I said the information was taken from an INTERVIEW ( Athearn or Athearn the company. I'm not sure). I say it's very contradictory as it mentions trouble with the Hi-F rubber band drive IN THE TENDER". It then goes on to t! alk about highly detailed plastic DRIVERS that sounds like they lost their traction on the rails. Unless someth ing is missing or I don't understand it this paragraph is talking about TWO different prototypes ( one with tender drive , one with the more normal drive in the engine hence the slipping drivers mentioned, neither of which worked.) It was not an effort to confuse what was actually going on but Athearn's (Mr. or he company) attempt to get something out on the market. Again the above information was told to someone in an interview by Athearn (Mr. and or Company people). NOT MY WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > With that said I am proposing a POSSIBLE 3rd prototype ( assuming there was more then one and information above seems to suggest it) that was tried and didn't work well and was never brought out. That is where the pictures attached come into play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > These pictures are of a Lionel 2-4-2 steam engine that was marketed. I would like you to notice the drive called a "Belt Drive. As I get into this remember Athearn designers in an interview use the words "belt drive" for their prototype failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > The story I have about this engine goes back to Athearn. It was exactly around the time Athearn was struggling to get a working Hi-F RBD Pacific engine to work as he promised. The information I have from a number of different sources about this particular engine is that it was a collaboration ( just like the E-33 electric ) between Athearn and Lionel. The first PROTOTYPE / MOCK UP had an Athearn motor for drive and used this skinny "O"ring drive with pulleys on a shaft geared to the drivers ( a rubber band would provide terrible performance for traction in this type of set up) This to me is a "band driven" engine. This engine was in design mode at the same time Athearn was having his own problem, 1958-1960. This engine also had very poor performance. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I have to look at this plus other information I have put out and people send along with the "possibility" that some might have a sample and come to a conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Unless someone can come out with more concrete information or pictures to change my way of thinking I have started to believe there had to be a couple of prototype that Athearn tried. (1) A Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender as stated in an interview. (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview (3). a "Band Drive" much like this Lionel engine that was a collaboration with Athearn at the same time he was having trouble with is Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I leave the decision up to the jury, unless anyone can produce solid evidence otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9816
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        First let me say this is 
some substantial information. I have to take it apart somewhat. I want 
to try to answer with my thoughts one paragraph at a time.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          This is to answer 
"what they meant by slipping". I can only go back to the Greenberg Athearn book 
and the paragraph talking specifically about this engine and the drivers 
slipping. This again was from an interview the book cited. It mentions they were 
proud (I will just say Athearn anymore as I'm not sure who they were Irv Athearn 
and / or his company people most likely the design division) of the highly 
detailed plastic drivers they had come up with but they later found slippage 
occurred as the drivers picked up dirt/debris from the rails causing them to 
lose traction.      I am assuming this meant that due 
to the debris  pickup of the plastic drivers, it caused them to 
lose traction which in turn caused the RBD to slip on the driver 
axles.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     The next paragraph about sitting down in his 
(Irv Athearn's office) with the prototype in front of him "READY TO SHIP" in 
May. This was early in the year of 1959 the article states. Would that 
mean  May of 1959 for shipping. Think of a couple of things here. Did 
this mean the model in front on his desk, a Hi-F RBD, was ready to be sold 
to the public ? Greenberg book states all the FIRST Hi-F RBD prototypes 
were scrapped. (The first item to be sold to the public was roughly 1960 was a 
"geared item"). Was this the first prototype that was scrapped.  If 
not it had to be a second prototype (read next paragraph about "tender 
drive").   Hope you got my drift     DOES 
ANYONE HAVE THE ENGINE DESCRIBED IN THE HIGHLIGHTED TEXT (from the other Email) 
BELOW AND CAN YOU PRODUCE PICTURES OF IT ???
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       The most interesting paragraph to me 
is the one you high lighted. Is the item described the very first prototype that 
was said to be scrapped or is this a SECOND TRY /Version ? Remember the 
Greenberg book interview said "TENDER DRIVE" was the failed Hi-F RBD 
 (and I'm not talking about just a motor in the tender). I really 
like this description because this could be called (to me) a Hi-F RBD model. It 
matches some stories others have told but if this version went out to 
the public, as Athearn said  where are they. He sure wouldn't ship a small 
number. He might have been frugal but not an idiot. He was a business man 
first.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               It's the 
next couple of sentences that caught my eye.      "The 
drive is a MODIFICATION" of the Hi-F drive which I take as meaning using only 
one small shaft for power (unlike the diesels which had one on each side of the 
motor")    While it ran by friction doesn't bother me as 
this is the principal behind Hi-F RBD. A small diameter shaft using a 
rubber band attached to a much larger diameter shaft (heavy axle).  And I 
assume that the round gearless "gears" were larger diameter on the axles. 
When I first read "round gearless gears" I though pulleys.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              If this 
description is true, and I have no reason to disbelieve it, I can forget my 
theory about a possible third "belt driven " drive using O ring with 
pulleys prototype. Yet this doesn't change what is written in the Greenberg 
book. That information was supplied to them by Athearn people in an interview 
and still lends itself to two distinctly different pre production 
prototypes..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
OH boy I hope you can follow my train of thought ?  I still believe at 
least two scrapped prototypes.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 5:34 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early 
  Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    !!! JIM H !!!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    It looks like I found some new information, and what they meant by 
  "drivers" slipping.  Read carefully! The date is early 1959.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    "Irv Athearn had good reason to smile when we wandered into his room.  
  Sitting out in bold view was his spanking new Boston & Maine 4-6-2 which 
  should start shipping to dealers in May, if not earlier.  Detailing is 
  outstanding.  Builder plates and other small detail stand up crisp and 
  sharp."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    "Despite the plastic boiler, the engine packs plenty of weight, 
  having a cast metal piece running the legnth of the boiler.  The Wilson 
  motor is used, same as in the Athearn Hi-F diesels.  And the drive is 
  also a modification of the Hi-F drive.  Rubber bands transfer power from 
  the drive shaft to round gearless "Gears" which transfer the power to the 
  drivers by friction."  (my bold highlight)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    "The new Athearn Pacific will pull a string of 15 freight cars without 
  difficulty.  Athearn will offer the locomotive in kit form at $9.95 It'll 
  also be available RTR (ready to run) at $14,95 probably with optional Eastern 
  and Western road names."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    "Design is basically a B&M P-4 such as seen in RMC for July 1956 (or 
  page 44 of the new Penn Craft Steam locomotive Plan Manual) but less the 
  shroud covering the sand domes.  Its a beautifully designed prototype and 
  the model measures up to the real one."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Wow, Jim, FRICTION DRIVE?! I bet when someone said slipping drivers, they 
  most likely were refering to the slipping of the friction roller on the drive 
  axle, ie. slipping drivers.  I had assumed they were talking of slipping 
  at the rail as on the prototype. What do you think?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    These paragraphs appear in a report of the 1959 New York Toy Fair in the 
  May 1959 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman, a 5 page illustrated 
  feature article. The NY Toy Fair was held in February or March of each 
  year back then, I believe.  The Athearn paragraphs, plus a nice photo of 
  Irv himself holding a piece of track with a Pacific on it (tender lettered 
  with large numerals "1392") appears on page 21.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I'll look for more later, but finding this was pretty neat!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.   

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim 
  heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I just popped 
  in for a little while before leaving again but had to reply. I haven't had 
  time to read all the Emails and someone else might have already replied. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I really think the photo you talk about having no wires 
  going from the tender to the boiler was doctored/retouched. My reasoning is 
  this.The plastic drivers would make it very hard (but not impossible) to have 
  any pick up in the engine. While the leading and trailing truck could be used 
  but again it would be hard. Also if the entire electrical pick up was in the 
  engine it would need to have two halves isolated from each other to accomplish 
  this. Since the ad said 1959 it was way before the last version came out, with 
  the engine only electrical pick up as I just described and the tender along 
  for the ride. While numerous engines from other companies used this all engine 
  pick up it wouldn't have been that first run Athearn. It would have needed 
  wires from the tender and they just didn't show them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I would 
  appreciate clarification on something you wrote about having two 0-6-0 Athearn 
  engines and then went on to a description of the two. What you described was 
  two of the three types of the early Athearn Pacifics. Check the photos I 
  previously sent. I don't have any knowledge of any changes to the Athearn 
  0-6-0's. I only know of one version. Did you happen to mean 4-6-2 and wrote 
  0-6-0 when you wrote the message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > If what you stated is right 
  and you are talking about the Athearn 0-6-0 I would appreciate very much if 
  you send pictures. Thanks for your information.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: Dst8596587@. .. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:24 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > For information only. The summer 
  issue of Model Trains dated 1959 has a full page ad from Athearn that 
  showcased the new 4-6-2 in HO available at your dealer in Kit form at 9.95 or 
  ready to run at 14.95. The engine is powered by HI-F drive, quoting the ad. 
  The engine is plastic drivered and had no wires displayed between the tender 
  and engine which would be expected if the motor was in the boiler. Although an 
  arguement can be made the wires were puposely omitted. To add a little more 
  mystery to this thread I have two 0-6-0 in my possesion which have entirely 
  different bottom plates and driver set up. One has no gear with the white 
  strip around the driver axles and a smooth bottom plate while the other has 
  gearing and a cut out machined on the plate to allow it rotation. I'll see if 
  I can get photos on line by the weekend. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: jim heckard 
  jimheck@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Wed, 15 
  Apr 2009 9:43 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn 
  Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sorry I 
  forgot to reply to the first part of your Email. Your sentence about "throw 
  big passenger type drivers into it" reinforces my thoughts. Athearn engineers 
  would have realized this mistake quickly and why I feel they shifted to other 
  prototypes that also didn't make it. Also goes back to Athearn being very 
  frugal. He would have seen it was folly to follow up on this idea. I doubt he 
  would have thrown money at it in an attempt to get it going. I don't think it 
  would have taken 2 years from the time he first announced a Hi-F RBD ( no 
  matter what the set up was) to the actual release of a geared Pacific to come 
  to that decision. He was smarter then that. And while these geared Pacifics 
  were not they best performers it came down to money again as he had to get 
  something out on the market because he had promised one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > .
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:01 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I am puzzled as to why they would even try.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I had 
  plenty of experience with HiF diseasemals in the 50-'s and 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Imagine, the slip we had with the band on the main shaft with small diameter 
  wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Now, throw big passenger-type drivers into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The 
  rubber bands must have had a life expectancy measured in minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Now, that said, and thinking about this........ maybe I'm more 
  off in the noggin than I want to admit, but I recall someone who had 
  one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I actually THINK I held it, back in Southern California, probably 
  59 or early 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > What I distinctly recall was the royal pain it was 
  to change the belts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > When I saw it, it was not running due to 
  belt failure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The owner said (and for all I know, it was 
  Colonel Bragg in North Anaheim/South Fullerton), you had to remove the boiler, 
  motor, shaft, siderods, some kind of bottom cover, drivers, and hope you got 
  it all back together correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > There was also a hobby shop on 
  Brookhurst north of the Riverside Freeway, at the intersection with 
  Orangethrope, nice guy in a wheelchair ran it, may have been him.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I had 2 of the Lil' Monsters (0-4-2T), and still have parts of 
  one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Those were probably the bigest disappointement of any model 
  railroad item I ever owned.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > And, in all those years, I don't 
  recall ever owning or even seeing the 0-6-0 with separate tender, unless I did 
  and thought it was Lionel or maybe Revell.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > W Jay 
  W
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > As I have consistently said I am searching for the truth. What 
  you wrote in the first paragraph (well stated) is what I feel could have been 
  based on what other people, especially at Athearn, have said. I didn't write 
  the words and why I ask the questions at the start.. Looking for 
  input.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I have just tried to point out what I read. Some of the 
  wording could be the same thing like RBD vs. Belt Drive. But the fact I 
  pointed out, and as written in Greenberg's Athearn book, concerning an 
  interview and the way it is written suggest to me that two different pre 
  -geared, pre- production designs were tried for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > As for what 
  became a standard belt drive style for later Lionel Ho is the story behind a 
  collaboration between Athearn and Lionel at the same time as the failed 
  Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > So yes I have been led to the beliefs you state so well. 
  You're ability to put things down in less words is better then mine. Now I 
  must seek to prove or disprove this with ads or write ups, Athearn books, 
  stories and other types of information. That is why I wanted seek out any 
  possible concrete evidence, either way, from what I present. A sample or birds 
  eye view of one would be best. Till then correct and tear apart where I have 
  gone. I got to this point by what has been in print not my guessing . This is 
  not a way to ruffle any feathers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, April 
  15, 2009 6:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn 
  Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > OK, as I understand it, you 
  believe there to be three (or at least three) pre-geared, pre-production 
  designs for the Pacific: (1) A completely self-contained Hi-F rubber band 
  drive in the tender with free rolling locomotive chassis, (2) a Hi-F rubber 
  band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated 
  in an interview and (3) a "O Ring Drive" much like the Lionel engine that you 
  showed in the attachment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I am using the term "O 
  Ring Drive" as that is what it is, using "belt" vs. rubber "bands" confuses me 
  as folks often interchange the terms. However the use of the word "belt" may 
  have also have referred to an "O Ring Drive" back then, too, as was used by 
  Lionel, that is what you are considering version # 3.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > So we should be looking for any references, or models, that will support 
  (or run counter to your theories). I will start searching for clues later 
  tonight. But first, I have a meeting to go to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > W 
  Jay W. (BTW, for those who do not know it, the story of how the young man, 
  Robert Smith, came to Athearn with his patented rubber band drive is on page 
  35 of the Mallerich Athearn book.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > W Jay W, Ray M, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I will 
  explain the pictures I sent shortly. To send them I only know how to create an 
  entire new Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > This attempt to put 
  information together is only to get at the truth as to the type or possible 
  TYPES of prototype Athearn tried to develop a good working Pacific. I fully 
  agree Athearn was a frugal man and didn't like to waste money. I think this 
  whole fiasco was Athearn (be it Mr. or Athearn the company and it's people) 
  had put a lot of money out in pre advance advertisement, had already had 
  packaging material ready (although with misprints on them which I already 
  pointed out in a separate Email) and he had a lot on the line as Lionel was 
  involved who also had catalogs showing the engine that wasn't available (and 
  never would be). I hope you just read the Email that I sent this morning about 
  information gleaned from the Greenberg Athearn Guide. As I said the 
  information was taken from an INTERVIEW ( Athearn or Athearn the company. I'm 
  not sure). I say it's very contradictory as it mentions trouble with the Hi-F 
  rubber band drive IN THE TENDER". It then goes on to t! alk about highly 
  detailed plastic DRIVERS that sounds like they lost their traction on the 
  rails. Unless something is missing or I don't understand it this paragraph is 
  talking about TWO different prototypes ( one with tender drive , one with the 
  more normal drive in the engine hence the slipping drivers mentioned, neither 
  of which worked.) It was not an effort to confuse what was actually going on 
  but Athearn's (Mr. or he company) attempt to get something out on the market. 
  Again the above information was told to someone in an interview by Athearn 
  (Mr. and or Company people). NOT MY WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
  With that said I am proposing a POSSIBLE 3rd prototype ( assuming there was 
  more then one and information above seems to suggest it) that was tried and 
  didn't work well and was never brought out. That is where the pictures 
  attached come into play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > These pictures 
  are of a Lionel 2-4-2 steam engine that was marketed. I would like you to 
  notice the drive called a "Belt Drive. As I get into this remember Athearn 
  designers in an interview use the words "belt drive" for their prototype 
  failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > The story I have about 
  this engine goes back to Athearn. It was exactly around the time Athearn was 
  struggling to get a working Hi-F RBD Pacific engine to work as he promised. 
  The information I have from a number of different sources about this 
  particular engine is that it was a collaboration ( just like the E-33 electric 
  ) between Athearn and Lionel. The first PROTOTYPE / MOCK UP had an Athearn 
  motor for drive and used this skinny "O"ring drive with pulleys on a shaft 
  geared to the drivers ( a rubber band would provide terrible performance for 
  traction in this type of set up) This to me is a "band driven" engine. This 
  engine was in design mode at the same time Athearn was having his own problem, 
  1958-1960. This engine also had very poor performance. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I have to look at this plus other information I have put 
  out and people send along with the "possibility" that some might have a sample 
  and come to a conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Unless someone 
  can come out with more concrete information or pictures to change my way of 
  thinking I have started to believe there had to be a couple of prototype that 
  Athearn tried. (1) A Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender as stated in an 
  interview. (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction 
  from plastic drivers as stated in an interview (3). a "Band Drive" much like 
  this Lionel engine that was a collaboration with Athearn at the same time he 
  was having trouble with is Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I 
  leave the decision up to the jury, unless anyone can produce solid evidence 
  otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---
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  Great deals on Dell's most popular laptops - Starting at $479
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9817
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                         Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               I really 
appreciate your interest and your time spent trying to provide information. Any 
thoughts you have are welcome. I don't know what the real ,entire truth is. The 
heavy axles on the tender can lead to a couple of conclusions. Since they were 
used on all RBD diesels its only natural to think a complete tender driven 
unit as stated in the Greenberg book ,written from information given in an 
interview (and cited as such) by Athearn or the company people. Add to that 
the statement that the Hi-F tender drive prototype was scrapped. 
Personally I believe they were mainly used for two reasons, entire 
electrical pick up from the tender (these axles insulated from the wheels on 
either side)  for a motorized engine and an attempt by Athearn to use up 
existing parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 6:55 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early 
  Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim:
                                                                                                                                                                                    I included the reference to no wires because thier absence 
  is so obivious that any one seeing the photo could 
  have thought there was a HI-F (RBD) drive in the tender. 
  This sounds very plausible given the construction of the tender axles on the 
  early model. However I have never, and I would be surprised if anyone has, 
  seen a tender frame that was machined to allow that type operation. I am 
  aware of the three versions and have two versions in the basement, 
  With the motor in the boiler the engine would have required the wires as you 
  indicated. I did mention that the wires could have been purposely 
  omittted. Although my primary interest is brass this engine has always 
  interested me due to the fact it was built by the Lima Locomotives 
  Works,  The locomotive works would have been in my grandmothers 
  backyard if the Baltimore and Ohio hadn't intervened. I try to purchase 
  engines that were built by Lima and!  have a quite a zoo in the 
  basement. The Athearn Boston and Maine P-4 was the only model, to my 
  knowledge, ever produced of this engine. Sakura advertised a brass model in 
  the early to mid 60's but I have never seen one or heard of anyone having 
  one .  As soon as my wife will allow me to borrow my camera I'll get 
  some photos of the 0-6-0. She is presently at a basket weaving seminar in 
  Indiana and will return Saturday. Very informative thread. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: jim heckard 
  <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
  Thu, 16 Apr 2009 4:03 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn 
  Pacific

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  I just popped in for a little while before leaving again but had to 
  reply. I haven't had time to read all the Emails and someone else might 
  have already replied. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            
   I really think the photo you talk about having no wires going from the 
  tender to the boiler  was doctored/retouched. My reasoning is this.The 
  plastic drivers would make it very hard (but not impossible) to have any 
  pick up in the engine. While the leading and trailing truck could be used but 
  again it would be hard. Also if the entire electrical pick up was in the 
  engine it would need to have two halves isolated from each other to accomplish 
  this. Since the ad said 1959 it was way before the last version came out, with 
  the engine only electrical pick up as I just described and the 
  tender along for the ride. While numerous engines from other companies used 
  this all engine pick up it wouldn't have been that first run Athearn. It would 
  have needed wires from the tender and they just didn't show them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               I would 
  appreciate clarification on something you wrote about having two 0-6-0 
  Athearn engines and then went on to a description of the two. What you 
  described was two of the three types of the early Athearn Pacifics. Check the 
  photos I previously sent. I don't have any knowledge of any changes to the 
  Athearn 0-6-0's. I only know of one version. Did you happen to mean 4-6-2 and 
  wrote 0-6-0 when you wrote the message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         If what you stated is 
  right and you are talking about the Athearn 0-6-0 I would appreciate very much 
  if you send pictures. Thanks for your information.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:24 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early 
    Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    For information only. The summer issue of Model Trains dated 1959 has a 
    full page ad from Athearn that showcased the new 4-6-2 in HO available at 
    your dealer in Kit form at 9.95 or ready to run at 14.95. The engine is 
    powered by HI-F drive, quoting the ad. The engine is plastic drivered and 
    had no wires displayed between the tender and engine which would be expected 
    if the motor was in the boiler. Although an arguement can be made the wires 
    were puposely  omitted. To  add a little more mystery to this 
    thread I have two 0-6-0 in my possesion which have entirely different bottom 
    plates and driver set up. One has no gear with the white strip around the 
    driver axles and a smooth bottom plate while the other has gearing and a cut 
    out machined on the plate to allow it rotation. I'll see if I can get 
    photos on line by the weekend.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don


                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original 
    Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
    vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 9:43 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: 
    Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        Sorry I forgot to reply to 
    the first part of your Email. Your sentence about "throw big passenger type 
    drivers into it" reinforces my thoughts. Athearn engineers would have 
    realized this mistake quickly and why I feel they shifted to other 
    prototypes that also didn't make it. Also goes back to Athearn being very 
    frugal. He would have seen it was folly to follow up on this idea. I doubt 
    he would have thrown money at it in an attempt to get it going. I don't 
    think it would have taken 2 years from the time he first announced a Hi-F 
    RBD  ( no matter what the set up was) to the actual release of a geared 
    Pacific to come to that decision. He was smarter then that. And while these 
    geared Pacifics were not they best performers it came down to money again as 
    he had to get something out on the market because he had promised 
    one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:01 
      PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early 
      Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    I am puzzled as to why they would even try.
                                                                                                                                                                                    I had plenty of 
      experience with HiF diseasemals in the 50-'s and 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Imagine, the 
      slip we had with the band on the main shaft with small diameter 
      wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Now, throw big passenger-type drivers into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    The rubber 
      bands must have had a life expectancy measured in minutes.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Now, 
      that said, and thinking about this........ maybe I'm more off in the 
      noggin than I want to admit, but I recall someone who had one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    I 
      actually THINK I held it, back in Southern California, probably 59 or 
      early 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    What I distinctly recall was the royal pain it was to 
      change the belts.

                                                                                                                                                                                    When I saw it, it was not running due to belt 
      failure.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The owner said (and for all I know, it was Colonel Bragg 
      in North Anaheim/South Fullerton), you had to remove the boiler, motor, 
      shaft, siderods, some kind of bottom cover, drivers, and hope you got it 
      all back together correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    There was also a hobby shop on Brookhurst 
      north of the Riverside Freeway, at the intersection with Orangethrope, 
      nice guy in a wheelchair ran it, may have been him.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I had 2 of the 
      Lil' Monsters (0-4-2T), and still have parts of one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Those were 
      probably the bigest disappointement of any model railroad item I ever 
      owned.

                                                                                                                                                                                    And, in all those years, I don't recall ever owning or even 
      seeing the 0-6-0 with separate tender, unless I did and thought it was 
      Lionel or maybe Revell.

                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As I have consistently 
      said I am searching for the truth. What you wrote in the first paragraph 
      (well stated) is what I feel could have been based on what other people, 
      especially at Athearn, have said. I didn't write the words and why I ask 
      the questions at the start.. Looking for input.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have just tried 
      to point out what I read. Some of the wording could be the same thing like 
      RBD vs. Belt Drive. But the fact I pointed out, and as written in 
      Greenberg's Athearn book, concerning an interview and the way it is 
      written suggest to me that two different pre -geared, pre- production 
      designs were tried for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As for what became a standard belt 
      drive style for later Lionel Ho is the story behind a collaboration 
      between Athearn and Lionel at the same time as the failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
      So yes I have been led to the beliefs you state so well. You're ability to 
      put things down in less words is better then mine. Now I must seek to 
      prove or disprove this with ads or write ups, Athearn books, stories and 
      other types of information. That is why I wanted seek out any possible 
      concrete evidence, either way, from what I present. A sample or birds eye 
      view of one would be best. Till then correct and tear apart where I have 
      gone. I got to this point by what has been in print not my guessing . This 
      is not a way to ruffle any feathers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- 
      Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: 
      [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > OK, as I understand 
      it, you believe there to be three (or at least three) pre-geared, 
      pre-production designs for the Pacific: (1) A completely self-contained 
      Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender with free rolling locomotive chassis, 
      (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from 
      plastic drivers as stated in an interview and (3) a "O Ring Drive" much 
      like the Lionel engine that you showed in the attachment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
      I am using the term "O Ring Drive" as that is what it is, using "belt" vs. 
      rubber "bands" confuses me as folks often interchange the terms. However 
      the use of the word "belt" may have also have referred to an "O Ring 
      Drive" back then, too, as was used by Lionel, that is what you are 
      considering version # 3.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > So we should be looking for any 
      references, or models, that will support (or run counter to your 
      theories). I will start searching for clues later tonight. But first, I 
      have a meeting to go to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay W. (BTW, for those who 
      do not know it, the story of how the young man, Robert Smith, came to 
      Athearn with his patented rubber band drive is on page 35 of the Mallerich 
      Athearn book.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
      "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > W Jay W, 
      Ray M, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I will explain the pictures I sent shortly. To 
      send them I only know how to create an entire new Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > This attempt to put information together is only to get at 
      the truth as to the type or possible TYPES of prototype Athearn tried to 
      develop a good working Pacific. I fully agree Athearn was a frugal man and 
      didn't like to waste money. I think this whole fiasco was Athearn (be it 
      Mr. or Athearn the company and it's people) had put a lot of money out in 
      pre advance advertisement, had already had packaging material ready 
      (although with misprints on them which I already pointed out in a separate 
      Email) and he had a lot on the line as Lionel was involved who also had 
      catalogs showing the engine that wasn't available (and never would be). I 
      hope you just read the Email that I sent this morning about information 
      gleaned from the Greenberg Athearn Guide. As I said the information was 
      taken from an INTERVIEW ( Athearn or Athearn the company. I'm not sure). I 
      say it's very contradictory as it mentions trouble with the Hi-F rubber 
      band drive IN THE TENDER". It then goes on to t! ! alk about highly 
      detailed plastic DRIVERS that sounds like they lost their traction on the 
      rails. Unless something is missing or I don't understand it this paragraph 
      is talking about TWO different prototypes ( one with tender drive , one 
      with the more normal drive in the engine hence the slipping drivers 
      mentioned, neither of which worked.) It was not an effort to confuse what 
      was actually going on but Athearn's (Mr. or he company) attempt to get 
      something out on the market. Again the above information was told to 
      someone in an interview by Athearn (Mr. and or Company people). NOT MY 
      WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > With that said I am proposing a POSSIBLE 
      3rd prototype ( assuming there was more then one and information above 
      seems to suggest it) that was tried and didn't work well and was never 
      brought out. That is where the pictures attached come into play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > These pictures are of a Lionel 2-4-2 steam engine that 
      was marketed. I would like you to notice the drive called a "Belt Drive. 
      As I get into this remember Athearn designers in an interview use the 
      words "belt drive" for their prototype failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > The story I have about this engine goes back to Athearn. It 
      was exactly around the time Athearn was struggling to get a working Hi-F 
      RBD Pacific engine to work as he promised. The information I have from a 
      number of different sources about this particular engine is that it was a 
      collaboration ( just like the E-33 electric ) between Athearn and Lionel. 
      The first PROTOTYPE / MOCK UP had an Athearn motor for drive and used this 
      skinny "O"ring drive with pulleys on a shaft geared to the drivers ( a 
      rubber band would provide terrible performance for traction in this type 
      of set up) This to me is a "band driven" engine. This engine was in design 
      mode at the same time Athearn was having his own problem, 1958-1960. This 
      engine also had very poor performance. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I have 
      to look at this plus other information I have put out and people send 
      along with the "possibility" that some might have a sample and come to a 
      conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Unless someone can come out with 
      more concrete information or pictures to change my way of thinking I have 
      started to believe there had to be a couple of prototype that Athearn 
      tried. (1) A Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender as stated in an 
      interview. (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor 
      traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview (3). a "Band 
      Drive" much like this Lionel engine that was a collaboration with Athearn 
      at the same time he was having trouble with is Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I leave the decision up to the jury, unless anyone can 
      produce solid evidence otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
      >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9818
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I think electrical pickup with a specific wheel size was what they were looking for.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
At that time, all the "dummy" large diseasemal wheels were plastic, right?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >      Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            I really appreciate your interest and your time spent trying to provide information. Any thoughts you have are welcome. I don't know what the real ,entire truth is. The heavy axles on the tender can lead to a couple of conclusions. Since they were used on all RBD diesels its only natural to think a complete tender driven unit as stated in the Greenberg book ,written from information given in an interview (and cited as such) by Athearn or the company people. Add to that the statement that the Hi-F tender drive prototype was scrapped. Personally I believe they were mainly used for two reasons, entire electrical pick up from the tender (these axles insulated from the wheels on either side)  for a motorized engine and an attempt by Athearn to use up existing parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                            Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: Dst8596587@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 6:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Jim:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I included the reference to no wires because thier absence is so obivious that any one seeing the photo could have thought there was a HI-F (RBD) drive in the tender. This sounds very plausible given the construction of the tender axles on the early model. However I have never, and I would be surprised if anyone has, seen a tender frame that was machined to allow that type operation. I am aware of the three versions and have two versions in the basement, With the motor in the boiler the engine would have required the wires as you indicated. I did mention that the wires could have been purposely omittted. Although my primary interest is brass this engine has always interested me due to the fact it was built by the Lima Locomotives Works,  The locomotive works would have been in my grandmothers backyard if the Baltimore and Ohio hadn't intervened. I try to purchase engines that were built by Lima and!  have a quite a zoo in the basement. The Athearn Boston and Maine P-4 was the only model, to my knowledge, ever produced of this engine. Sakura advertised a brass model in the early to mid 60's but I have never seen one or heard of anyone having one .  As soon as my wife will allow me to borrow my camera I'll get some photos of the 0-6-0. She is presently at a basket weaving seminar in Indiana and will return Saturday. Very informative thread. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 4:03 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                  I just popped in for a little while before leaving again but had to reply. I haven't had time to read all the Emails and someone else might have already replied. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            I really think the photo you talk about having no wires going from the tender to the boiler  was doctored/retouched. My reasoning is this.The plastic drivers would make it very hard (but not impossible) to have any pick up in the engine. While the leading and trailing truck could be used but again it would be hard. Also if the entire electrical pick up was in the engine it would need to have two halves isolated from each other to accomplish this. Since the ad said 1959 it was way before the last version came out, with the engine only electrical pick up as I just described and the tender along for the ride. While numerous engines from other companies used this all engine pick up it wouldn't have been that first run Athearn. It would have needed wires from the tender and they just didn't show them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>              I would appreciate clarification on something you wrote about having two 0-6-0 Athearn engines and then went on to a description of the two. What you described was two of the three types of the early Athearn Pacifics. Check the photos I previously sent. I don't have any knowledge of any changes to the Athearn 0-6-0's. I only know of one version. Did you happen to mean 4-6-2 and wrote 0-6-0 when you wrote the message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        If what you stated is right and you are talking about the Athearn 0-6-0 I would appreciate very much if you send pictures. Thanks for your information.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                 Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     From: Dst8596587@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     For information only. The summer issue of Model Trains dated 1959 has a full page ad from Athearn that showcased the new 4-6-2 in HO available at your dealer in Kit form at 9.95 or ready to run at 14.95. The engine is powered by HI-F drive, quoting the ad. The engine is plastic drivered and had no wires displayed between the tender and engine which would be expected if the motor was in the boiler. Although an arguement can be made the wires were puposely  omitted. To  add a little more mystery to this thread I have two 0-6-0 in my possesion which have entirely different bottom plates and driver set up. One has no gear with the white strip around the driver axles and a smooth bottom plate while the other has gearing and a cut out machined on the plate to allow it rotation. I'll see if I can get photos on line by the weekend.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Sent: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 9:43 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         Sorry I forgot to reply to the first part of your Email. Your sentence about "throw big passenger type drivers into it" reinforces my thoughts. Athearn engineers would have realized this mistake quickly and why I feel they shifted to other prototypes that also didn't make it. Also goes back to Athearn being very frugal. He would have seen it was folly to follow up on this idea. I doubt he would have thrown money at it in an attempt to get it going. I don't think it would have taken 2 years from the time he first announced a Hi-F RBD  ( no matter what the set up was) to the actual release of a geared Pacific to come to that decision. He was smarter then that. And while these geared Pacifics were not they best performers it came down to money again as he had to get something out on the market because he had promised one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       From: curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       I am puzzled as to why they would even try.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       I had plenty of experience with HiF diseasemals in the 50-'s and 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Imagine, the slip we had with the band on the main shaft with small diameter wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Now, throw big passenger-type drivers into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       The rubber bands must have had a life expectancy measured in minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Now, that said, and thinking about this........maybe I'm more off in the noggin than I want to admit, but I recall someone who had one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       I actually THINK I held it, back in Southern California, probably 59 or early 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       What I distinctly recall was the royal pain it was to change the belts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       When I saw it, it was not running due to belt failure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       The owner said (and for all I know, it was Colonel Bragg in North Anaheim/South Fullerton), you had to remove the boiler, motor, shaft, siderods, some kind of bottom cover, drivers, and hope you got it all back together correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       There was also a hobby shop on Brookhurst north of the Riverside Freeway, at the intersection with Orangethrope, nice guy in a wheelchair ran it, may have been him.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       I had 2 of the Lil' Monsters (0-4-2T), and still have parts of one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Those were probably the bigest disappointement of any model railroad item I ever owned.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       And, in all those years, I don't recall ever owning or even seeing the 0-6-0 with separate tender, unless I did and thought it was Lionel or maybe Revell.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > As I have consistently said I am searching for the truth. What you wrote in the first paragraph (well stated) is what I feel could have been based on what other people, especially at Athearn, have said. I didn't write the words and why I ask the questions at the start.. Looking for input.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > I have just tried to point out what I read. Some of the wording could be the same thing like RBD vs. Belt Drive. But the fact I pointed out, and as written in Greenberg's Athearn book, concerning an interview and the way it is written suggest to me that two different pre -geared, pre- production designs were tried for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > As for what became a standard belt drive style for later Lionel Ho is the story behind a collaboration between Athearn and Lionel at the same time as the failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > So yes I have been led to the beliefs you state so well. You're ability to put things down in less words is better then mine. Now I must seek to prove or disprove this with ads or write ups, Athearn books, stories and other types of information. That is why I wanted seek out any possible concrete evidence, either way, from what I present. A sample or birds eye view of one would be best. Till then correct and tear apart where I have gone. I got to this point by what has been in print not my guessing . This is not a way to ruffle any feathers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > OK, as I understand it, you believe there to be three (or at least three) pre-geared, pre-production designs for the Pacific: (1) A completely self-contained Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender with free rolling locomotive chassis, (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview and (3) a "O Ring Drive" much like the Lionel engine that you showed in the attachment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > I am using the term "O Ring Drive" as that is what it is, using "belt" vs. rubber "bands" confuses me as folks often interchange the terms. However the use of the word "belt" may have also have referred to an "O Ring Drive" back then, too, as was used by Lionel, that is what you are considering version # 3.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > So we should be looking for any references, or models, that will support (or run counter to your theories). I will start searching for clues later tonight. But first, I have a meeting to go to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > W Jay W. (BTW, for those who do not know it, the story of how the young man, Robert Smith, came to Athearn with his patented rubber band drive is on page 35 of the Mallerich Athearn book.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > > W Jay W, Ray M, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > > I will explain the pictures I sent shortly. To send them I only know how to create an entire new Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > > This attempt to put information together is only to get at the truth as to the type or possible TYPES of prototype Athearn tried to develop a good working Pacific. I fully agree Athearn was a frugal man and didn't like to waste money. I think this whole fiasco was Athearn (be it Mr. or Athearn the company and it's people) had put a lot of money out in pre advance advertisement, had already had packaging material ready (although with misprints on them which I already pointed out in a separate Email) and he had a lot on the line as Lionel was involved who also had catalogs showing the engine that wasn't available (and never would be). I hope you just read the Email that I sent this morning about information gleaned from the Greenberg Athearn Guide. As I said the information was taken from an INTERVIEW ( Athearn or Athearn the company. I'm not sure). I say it's very contradictory as it mentions trouble with the Hi-F rubber band drive IN THE TENDER". It then goes on to t! ! alk about highly detailed plastic DRIVERS that sounds like they lost their traction on the rails. Unless something is missing or I don't understand it this paragraph is talking about TWO different prototypes ( one with tender drive , one with the more normal drive in the engine hence the slipping drivers mentioned, neither of which worked.) It was not an effort to confuse what was actually going on but Athearn's (Mr. or he company) attempt to get something out on the market. Again the above information was told to someone in an interview by Athearn (Mr. and or Company people). NOT MY WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > > With that said I am proposing a POSSIBLE 3rd prototype ( assuming there was more then one and information above seems to suggest it) that was tried and didn't work well and was never brought out. That is where the pictures attached come into play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > > These pictures are of a Lionel 2-4-2 steam engine that was marketed. I would like you to notice the drive called a "Belt Drive. As I get into this remember Athearn designers in an interview use the words "belt drive" for their prototype failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > > The story I have about this engine goes back to Athearn. It was exactly around the time Athearn was struggling to get a working Hi-F RBD Pacific engine to work as he promised. The information I have from a number of different sources about this particular engine is that it was a collaboration ( just like the E-33 electric ) between Athearn and Lionel. The first PROTOTYPE / MOCK UP had an Athearn motor for drive and used this skinny "O"ring drive with pulleys on a shaft geared to the drivers ( a rubber band would provide terrible performance for traction in this type of set up) This to me is a "band driven" engine. This engine was in design mode at the same time Athearn was having his own problem, 1958-1960. This engine also had very poor performance. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > > I have to look at this plus other information I have put out and people send along with the "possibility" that some might have a sample and come to a conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > > Unless someone can come out with more concrete information or pictures to change my way of thinking I have started to believe there had to be a couple of prototype that Athearn tried. (1) A Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender as stated in an interview. (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from plastic drivers as stated in an interview (3). a "Band Drive" much like this Lionel engine that was a collaboration with Athearn at the same time he was having trouble with is Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > > I leave the decision up to the jury, unless anyone can produce solid evidence otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9819
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Mystery Trailing Truck
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have another mystery for you. I am listing items tonight and I pulled this truck from my parts box. I have no use for it and I therefore am listing it. I would like it to go to someone who can use it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    maybe one of you experts out there can help identify it. I will try to add pictures here or a link or post them in a folder...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks, Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9820
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Item number: 290309775329
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    On Ebay.  I am more of a car collector, but thought this Penn Line 4-4-4-4 looked interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9821
						From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    They look a lot, A LOT like the gear boxes that you would find on A Vintage Tenshodo F unit. The Tenshodos had that collar, and used a tube, and used sideframes that were almost identical to the Varneys. I'll see if I can dig one out, and get up a picture of them side by side.
                                                                                                                                                                                    







                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9822
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don ,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         These statements in 
Lenahans Lexicon are one of the reasons I started to think that there was a 
Pacific prototype Athearn tried using the drive set up that eventually came out 
as the Lionel 2-4-2
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          First let me say Mr. 
Lenahan was one of my first mentors. We shared much information as he prepared 
to update his two lexicons. I was in the process of taking pictures of certain 
items using his directions. Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicons are not a 100% right 
but close. We had discussed a number of things I found different. Yet he was a 
great source of information for HO vintage items
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I  sent pictures 
of the Lionel 2-4-2 "belt driven"engine previously which was sold to the 
public. Because of the story behind the development of this 2-4-2 and the 
Athearn designers using the words "belt drive" I wanted to check this tangent 
out. Most of what you cited and what Lenahan wrote is right. One thing different 
is that Athearn designed this engine and drive with Lionel for Lionel's use. 
This collaboration was much like the E-33 electric that both produced. The first 
2-4-2 prototype had an Athearn motor and RBD but the item when finally sold had 
a Lionel motor and  using an O ring and pulley belt drive  This engine 
was created at exactly the same time as the Athearn's first Pacific attempt that 
was failing. This Athearn / Lionel engine is kind of an oddity in that Athearn 
produced nothing like it and Lionel did. It's design followed nothing 
like Lionel had before when they were using Rivarossi, Hobbyline and Athearns 
products and after making there own engines using John English metal steam 
engines and tender patterns. (I'm not talking about the 2-4-2 being a Columbia). 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            Since 
Athearn had a lot to do with the design of this and the type of drive it 
contained, made at the same time the Hi-F RBD prototype was failing how far of a 
stretch would it be that Athearn tried to use this drive especially with the 
Athearn engineers citing "belt drive" Don't you think that of all the people who 
would/should know the difference in their original RBD designation would use the 
words "belt drive" when talking about an Athearn Pacific prototype 
?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I still 
feel they tried  two or more designs in attempt to stay with the RBD 
concept to fulfill their promise but had to give up and go to the gear drive. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 7:37 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early 
  Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Lets stir the pot one more time. Lenahans's locomotive lexicon states that 
  the Lionel 2-4-2 released in the same time frame as proposed for the 4-6-2 
  used the Athearn type motor and rubber band drive system. Because of the poor 
  performance of this engine, Athearn redesigned the Pacific, which was being 
  readied for production,  to a gear driven engine prior to its release. So 
  was there a RBD drive 4-6-2, according to the RMC article there was at least 
  one. There  also may have been a limited quanity produced prior to 
  the redesign of the drive train considering the amount of advertising that 
  seemed to be evident. It would stand to reason that Athearn would try to 
  recall items if they were to result in subpar performance. So how many 
  actually made it to the public? I can't answer that but if someone tells me 
  they have an Athearn rubber band drive pacific I'll have to consider 
  it possible. I believe the three roadnames used on this engine were the Boston 
  and Maine, Baltimore and Ohio and ATSF.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don.  
  


                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: the_plainsman 
  <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 4:34 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    !!! JIM H !!!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    It looks like I found some new information, and what they meant by 
  "drivers" slipping.  Read carefully! The date is early 1959.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    "Irv Athearn had good reason to smile when we wandered into his 
  room.  Sitting out in bold view was his spanking new Boston & Maine 
  4-6-2 which should start shipping to dealers in May, if not earlier.  
  Detailing is outstanding.  Builder plates and other small detail stand up 
  crisp and sharp."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    "Despite the plastic boiler, the engine packs plenty of weight, 
  having a cast metal piece running the legnth of the boiler.  The Wilson motor is used, same as in 
  the Athearn Hi-F diesels.  And the drive is also a modification of the 
  Hi-F drive.  Rubber bands transfer power from the drive shaft 
  to round gearless "Gears" which transfer the power to the drivers by 
  friction."  (my bold highlight)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    "The new Athearn Pacific will pull a string of 15 freight cars without 
  difficulty.  Athearn will offer the locomotive in kit form at $9.95 It'll also 
  be available RTR (ready to run) at $14,95 probably with optional Eastern and 
  Western road names."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    "Design is basically a B&M P-4 such as seen in RMC for July 1956 (or page 44 of the new Penn Craft Steam 
  locomotive Plan Manual) but less the shroud covering the sand domes.  Its 
  a beautifully designed prototype and the model measures up to the real 
  one."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Wow, Jim, FRICTION DRIVE?! I bet when someone said slipping drivers, they 
  most likely were refering to the slipping of the friction roller on the drive 
  axle, ie. slipping drivers.  I had assumed they were talking of 
  slipping at the rail as on the prototype. What do you think?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    These paragraphs appear in a report of the 1959 New York Toy Fair in the 
  May 1959 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman, a 5 page illustrated 
  feature article. The NY Toy Fair was held in February or March of each 
  year back then, I believe.  The Athearn paragraphs, plus a nice photo of Irv himself holding a piece of track with a Pacific on it (tender 
  lettered with large numerals "1392") appears on page 21.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I'll look for more later, but finding this was pretty neat!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.   

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  I just popped in for a little while before leaving again but had to reply. I 
  haven't had time to read all the Emails and someone else might have 
  already replied. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I really think the photo you talk about 
  having no wires going from the tender to the boiler was doctored/retouched. My 
  reasoning is this.The plastic drivers would make it very hard (but not 
  impossible) to have any pick up in the engine. While the leading and trailing 
  truck could be used but again it would be hard. Also if the entire electrical 
  pick up was in the engine it would need to have two halves isolated from each 
  other to accomplish this. Since the ad said 1959 it was way before the last 
  version came out, with the engine only electrical pick up as I just described 
  and the tender along for the ride. While numerous engines from other companies 
  used this all engine pick up it wouldn't have been that first run Athearn. It would have needed wires from the tender and they just 
  didn't show them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I would appreciate clarification on 
  something you wrote about having two 0-6-0 Athearn engines and then went on to a description of the two. 
  What you described was two of the three types of the early Athearn Pacifics. Check the photos I previously sent. I don't have any knowledge of any changes to the Athearn 0-6-0's. I only know of one version. Did you happen to mean 4-6-2 and 
  wrote 0-6-0 when you wrote the message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > If what you stated is 
  right and you are talking about the Athearn 0-6-0 I would appreciate very much if you send pictures. 
  Thanks for your information.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: 
  Dst8596587@. .. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: 
  Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more 
  early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > For information only. The summer issue of Model Trains dated 1959 has 
  a full page ad from Athearn that showcased the new 4-6-2 in HO available at your 
  dealer in Kit form at 9.95 or ready to run at 14.95. The engine is powered by 
  HI-F drive, quoting the ad. The engine is plastic drivered and had no wires displayed between the tender and engine 
  which would be expected if the motor was in the boiler. Although an arguement can be made the wires were puposely omitted. To add a little more mystery to this thread I 
  have two 0-6-0 in my possesion which have entirely different bottom plates and driver 
  set up. One has no gear with the white strip around the driver axles and a 
  smooth bottom plate while the other has gearing and a cut out machined on the 
  plate to allow it rotation. I'll see if I can get photos on line by the 
  weekend. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > -----Original 
  Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: jim heckard jimheck@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 9:43 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sorry I forgot to reply to the first part of your Email. 
  Your sentence about "throw big passenger type drivers into it" reinforces my 
  thoughts. Athearn engineers would have realized this mistake quickly and 
  why I feel they shifted to other prototypes that also didn't make it. Also goes back to Athearn being very frugal. He would have seen it was folly to 
  follow up on this idea. I doubt he would have thrown money at it in an attempt 
  to get it going. I don't think it would have taken 2 years from the time he first 
  announced a Hi-F RBD ( no matter what the set up was) to the actual release of a 
  geared Pacific to come to that decision. He was smarter then that. And while 
  these geared Pacifics were not they best performers it came down to money 
  again as he had to get something out on the market because he had promised 
  one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > .
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: curmudgeon 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, April 
  15, 2009 10:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I am puzzled as to why 
  they would even try.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I had plenty of experience with HiF diseasemals in the 50-'s and 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Imagine, the slip we had with the band on the main 
  shaft with small diameter wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Now, throw big passenger-type 
  drivers into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The rubber bands must have had a life expectancy 
  measured in minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Now, that said, and thinking about 
  this........ maybe I'm more off in the noggin than I want to admit, but I 
  recall someone who had one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I actually THINK I held it, back in 
  Southern California, probably 59 or early 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > What I distinctly recall was the royal pain it was to 
  change the belts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > When I saw it, it was not running due to 
  belt failure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The owner said (and for all I know, it was 
  Colonel Bragg in North Anaheim/South Fullerton), you had to remove the boiler, 
  motor, shaft, siderods, some kind of bottom cover, drivers, and hope you got it 
  all back together correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > There was also a hobby shop on Brookhurst north of the Riverside Freeway, at the intersection 
  with Orangethrope, nice guy in a wheelchair ran it, may have been 
  him.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I had 2 of the Lil' Monsters (0-4-2T), and still have parts of one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Those were probably the 
  bigest disappointement of any model railroad item I ever owned.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > And, in all those years, I don't recall ever owning or even seeing the 0-6-0 with separate 
  tender, unless I did and thought it was Lionel or maybe Revell.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > As I have consistently said I am searching for the 
  truth. What you wrote in the first paragraph (well stated) is what I feel 
  could have been based on what other people, especially at Athearn, have said. I didn't write the words and why I ask the questions at the start.. 
  Looking for input.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > & gt; I have just tried to point out what I read. Some of the 
  wording could be the same thing like RBD vs. Belt Drive. But the fact I pointed out, and as written in 
  Greenberg's Athearn book, concerning an interview and the way it is written 
  suggest to me that two different pre -geared, pre- production designs were 
  tried for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > As for what became a standard belt drive style 
  for later Lionel Ho is the story behind a collaboration between Athearn and Lionel at the same time as the failed 
  Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > So yes I have been led to the beliefs you state so well. 
  You're ability to put things down in less words is better then mine. Now I 
  must seek to prove or disprove this with ads or write ups, Athearn books, stories and other types of information. That is 
  why I wanted seek out any possible concrete evidence, either way, from what I 
  present. A sample or birds eye view of one would be best. Till then correct 
  and tear apart where I have gone. I got to this point by what has been in 
  print not my guessing . This is not a way to ruffle any feathers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ----- Original Message ----- 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 
  6:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > OK, as I understand it, you believe 
  there to be three (or at least three) pre-geared, pre-production designs for 
  the Pacific: (1) A completely self-contained Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender with free rolling locomotive 
  chassis, (2) a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from 
  plastic drivers as stated in an interview and (3) a "O Ring Drive" much like 
  the Lionel engine that you showed in the attachment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > I am using the term "O Ring Drive" as that is what it is, using "belt" 
  vs. rubber "bands" confuses me as folks oft en interchange the terms. However 
  the use of the word "belt" may have also have referred to an "O Ring Drive" 
  back then, too, as was used by Lionel, that is what you are considering 
  version # 3.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > So we should be looking for any 
  references, or models, that will support (or run counter to your theories). I 
  will start searching for clues later tonight. But first, I have a meeting to 
  go to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > W Jay W. (BTW, for those who do not know it, the story of how the young 
  man, Robert Smith, came to Athearn with his patented rubber band drive is on page 35 of the 
  Mallerich Athearn book.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
  > W Jay W, Ray M, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I will explain the pictures I sent 
  shortly. To send them I only know how to create an entire new Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > This attempt to put information together is only 
  to get at the truth as to the type or possible TYPES of prototype Athearn tried to develop a good working Pacific. I fully agree Athearn was a frugal man and didn't like to waste money. I think this whole fiasco was Athearn (be it Mr. or Athearn the company and it's people) had put a lot of money out in pre advance 
  advertisement, had already had packaging material ready (although with 
  misprints on them which I already pointed out in a separate Email) and he had 
  a lot on the line as Lionel was involved who also had catalogs showing the 
  engine that wasn't available (and never would be). I hope you just read the Email 
  that I sent this morning about information gleaned from the Greenberg Athearn Guide. As I said the information was taken from an 
  INTERVIEW ( Athearn or Athearn the company. I'm not sure). I say it's very contradictory as it mentions trouble with the Hi-F rubber band drive IN THE TENDER". It then goes on to t! alk about highly detailed plastic DRIVERS that sounds like they 
  lost their traction on the rails. Unless someth ing is missing or I don't understand it this paragraph is talking about TWO different 
  prototypes ( one with tender drive , one with the more normal drive in the 
  engine hence the slipping drivers mentioned, neither of which worked.) It was 
  not an effort to confuse what was actually going on but Athearn's (Mr. or he company) attempt to get something out on the market. 
  Again the above information was told to someone in an interview by Athearn (Mr. and or Company people). NOT MY WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > With that said I am proposing a POSSIBLE 3rd prototype 
  ( assuming there was more then one and information above seems to suggest it) 
  that was tried and didn't work well and was never brought out. That is where the pictures 
  attached come into play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > These pictures 
  are of a Lionel 2-4-2 steam engine that was marketed. I would like you to 
  notice the drive called a "Belt Drive. As I get into this remember Athearn designers in an interview use the words "belt drive" for 
  their prototype failed Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > The story 
  I have about this engine goes back to Athearn. It was exactly around the time Athearn was struggling to get a working Hi-F RBD Pacific engine to work as he promised. The information I have 
  from a number of different sources about this particular engine is that it was 
  a collaboration ( just like the E-33 electric ) between Athearn and Lionel. The first PROTOTYPE / MOCK UP had an Athearn motor for drive and used this skinny "O"ring drive with 
  pulleys on a shaft geared to the drivers ( a rubber band would provide 
  terrible performance for traction in this type of set up) This to me is a 
  "band driven" engine. This engine was in design mode at the same time Athearn was having his own problem, 1958-1960. This engine also 
  had very poor performance. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I have to 
  look at this plus other information I have put out and people send along with 
  the "possibility" that some might have a sample and come to a 
  conclusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Unless someone can come out 
  with more concrete information or pictures to change my way of thinking I have 
  started to believe there had to be a couple of prototype that Athearn tried. (1) A Hi-F rubber band drive in the tender as stated in an interview. (2) 
  a Hi-F rubber band drive in the engine that had poor traction from 
  plastic drivers as stated in an interview (3). a "Band Drive" much like this 
  Lionel engine that was a collaboration with Athearn at the same time he was having trouble with is 
  Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > I leave the decision up to the 
  jury, unless anyone can produce solid evidence otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---
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  Great deals on Dell's most popular laptops - Starting at $479
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9823
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more early Athearn Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I thought I had found something of interest! (BTW, I should have picked up on the wheel slipping description in the book, as I must have read it two or three times in the past couple days!)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
To answer one of your questions, yes, ready to ship: I omitted the caption of the photo of Irv holding the Pacific, which says, "Irv Athearn takes a breather at his display to study his new HO Boston & Maine 4-6-2 Pacific locomotive, scheduled for late spring release.  Model has fine detail, rubber band drive; pulls 15 cars."
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Remember, this is taking place at the annual early 1959 New York Toy Fair.  Some larger manufacturers maintained an office or desk in the Toy Building, AKA Gilbert Hall of Science or an adjoining building,  while others exhibited in a hall.  Buyers would come around and place orders for the next Christmas Season. (My first summer jobs were in that industry, working by chance for a major importer of fine european toys - another story for another time.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Since I now have some specific information related to the model at that 1959 NY show and that it has some substance, I am going to try and follow it up with a personal inquiry to an older gent (in the industry) who I have had a very passing aquaintance with, who may have been at the show and seen Athearn's exhibit.  A very long shot, but would have made no sense to ask him about the model in general, Now I can ask specifics and if he saw it and remembers anything about it.  Wish me luck - I hope he even remembers me! (I can't believe 1959 was 50 years ago.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I want to check several more places tonight and tommorow and let this sink in first, though. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     First let me say this is some substantial information. I have to take it apart somewhat. I want to try to answer with my thoughts one paragraph at a time.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       This is to answer "what they meant by slipping". I can only go back to the Greenberg Athearn book and the paragraph talking specifically about this engine and the drivers slipping. This again was from an interview the book cited. It mentions they were proud (I will just say Athearn anymore as I'm not sure who they were Irv Athearn and / or his company people most likely the design division) of the highly detailed plastic drivers they had come up with but they later found slippage occurred as the drivers picked up dirt/debris from the rails causing them to lose traction.      I am assuming this meant that due to the debris  pickup of the plastic drivers, it caused them to lose traction which in turn caused the RBD to slip on the driver axles.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  The next paragraph about sitting down in his (Irv Athearn's office) with the prototype in front of him "READY TO SHIP" in May. This was early in the year of 1959 the article states. Would that mean  May of 1959 for shipping. Think of a couple of things here. Did this mean the model in front on his desk, a Hi-F RBD, was ready to be sold to the public ? Greenberg book states all the FIRST Hi-F RBD prototypes were scrapped. (The first item to be sold to the public was roughly 1960 was a "geared item"). Was this the first prototype that was scrapped.  If not it had to be a second prototype (read next paragraph about "tender drive").   Hope you got my drift     DOES ANYONE HAVE THE ENGINE DESCRIBED IN THE HIGHLIGHTED TEXT (from the other Email) BELOW AND CAN YOU PRODUCE PICTURES OF IT ???
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    The most interesting paragraph to me is the one you high lighted. Is the item described the very first prototype that was said to be scrapped or is this a SECOND TRY /Version ? Remember the Greenberg book interview said "TENDER DRIVE" was the failed Hi-F RBD  (and I'm not talking about just a motor in the tender). I really like this description because this could be called (to me) a Hi-F RBD model. It matches some stories others have told but if this version went out to the public, as Athearn said  where are they. He sure wouldn't ship a small number. He might have been frugal but not an idiot. He was a business man first.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            It's the next couple of sentences that caught my eye.      "The drive is a MODIFICATION" of the Hi-F drive which I take as meaning using only one small shaft for power (unlike the diesels which had one on each side of the motor")    While it ran by friction doesn't bother me as this is the principal behind Hi-F RBD. A small diameter shaft using a rubber band attached to a much larger diameter shaft (heavy axle).  And I assume that the round gearless "gears" were larger diameter on the axles. When I first read "round gearless gears" I though pulleys.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           If this description is true, and I have no reason to disbelieve it, I can forget my theory about a possible third "belt driven " drive using O ring with pulleys prototype. Yet this doesn't change what is written in the Greenberg book. That information was supplied to them by Athearn people in an interview and still lends itself to two distinctly different pre production prototypes..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>              OH boy I hope you can follow my train of thought ?  I still believe at least two scrapped prototypes.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 5:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more early Athearn Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   !!! JIM H !!!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   It looks like I found some new information, and what they meant by "drivers" slipping.  Read carefully! The date is early 1959.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   "Irv Athearn had good reason to smile when we wandered into his room.  Sitting out in bold view was his spanking new Boston & Maine 4-6-2 which should start shipping to dealers in May, if not earlier.  Detailing is outstanding.  Builder plates and other small detail stand up crisp and sharp."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   "Despite the plastic boiler, the engine packs plenty of weight, having a cast metal piece running the legnth of the boiler.  The Wilson motor is used, same as in the Athearn Hi-F diesels.  And the drive is also a modification of the Hi-F drive.  Rubber bands transfer power from the drive shaft to round gearless "Gears" which transfer the power to the drivers by friction."  (my bold highlight)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   "The new Athearn Pacific will pull a string of 15 freight cars without difficulty.  Athearn will offer the locomotive in kit form at $9.95 It'll also be available RTR (ready to run) at $14,95 probably with optional Eastern and Western road names."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   "Design is basically a B&M P-4 such as seen in RMC for July 1956 (or page 44 of the new Penn Craft Steam locomotive Plan Manual) but less the shroud covering the sand domes.  Its a beautifully designed prototype and the model measures up to the real one."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Wow, Jim, FRICTION DRIVE?! I bet when someone said slipping drivers, they most likely were refering to the slipping of the friction roller on the drive axle, ie. slipping drivers.  I had assumed they were talking of slipping at the rail as on the prototype. What do you think?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   These paragraphs appear in a report of the 1959 New York Toy Fair in the May 1959 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman, a 5 page illustrated feature article. The NY Toy Fair was held in February or March of each year back then, I believe.  The Athearn paragraphs, plus a nice photo of Irv himself holding a piece of track with a Pacific on it (tender lettered with large numerals "1392") appears on page 21.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I'll look for more later, but finding this was pretty neat!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   W Jay W.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9824
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: pop-ups
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    It's not yahoo.  I suspect your computer may have picked up some malware 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
that's doing it, usually some type of "Trojan".
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
These are not really virii, and your firewall doesn't stop them.  You need 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
to scan regularly scan for them, as anti-virus programs like Norton don't 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
recognize them..  Adware is a good one, I use two, "Spyware Doctor" and "Reg 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Tool". (It's best to have more than one because no one program will catch 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
everything).  Spyware Doctor automatically scans my computer twice a day and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
automatically removes them, there's usually at least one or two.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 7:18 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: pop-ups
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> No Jim, none here, and I do not have any special programs, except an free 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ad Aware one a couple years old.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>             Has any body else started receiving pop up messages when 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> viewing the site ? It seems that every time I come into the site, to view 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> anything,  a pop up shows up and this started to happen after the recent 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> shut down by Yahoo.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>              I have an Ad Aware program to eliminate pop ups and I don't 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> receive them any other time until I come into the site.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9825
						From: Russ Shiel
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    H'lo all...southern hemisphere is late as usual...but after squinting at the cast lettering on the gearbox covers, I thought I could see a raised 'Tenshodo', so asked the seller...he kindly replied immediately....that's what they are.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chrs!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Russ

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Enjoy a better web experience. Upgrade to the new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7. Get it now..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9826
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Varney F-3's by John Gascoyne
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    With discussion about what seems to be hybrid Varney F-3's, I just posted three photos in my "Plainsman's Pick's" album, showing a Varney metal F-3 A-B-A lash-up that was custom detailed and painted by John Gascoyne, who also was an occasional contributor to Model Railroader in the 1950's and 1960's.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
These locomotives were done in 1954, later re-motored, it seems in 1958 with the later one piece Varney drive trucks, but with early pulleys used. They were commissioned by the same gentleman who ordered the custom George Stock NYC Niagara I posted a photo of a week or so ago.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gascoyne added all window "glass" hand fitted to each window, this, before the Pacific HO/later Walthers window set was available, plus windshield wipers, Scale-Light lighting, custom lucite coupler mounts and then painted them in a snappy C&O scheme.  He signed and dated his work by paintbrush on the inside.  They need work to be running again, but look good given the paint was done 55 years ago!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Interesting side note:  John Glaab, editor of the last edition of The Brown Book of Brass Locomotives, is a fan and collector of Gascoyne's work!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I also have another matching Gascoyne C&O A unit as well. Fun to have, even though C&O is not one of the roads I model.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9827
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Mystery Trailing Truck
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean Naylor wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have another mystery for you. I am listing items tonight and I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> pulled this truck from my parts box. I have no use for it and I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> therefore am listing it. I would like it to go to someone who can use it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> maybe one of you experts out there can help identify it. I will try to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> add pictures here or a link or post them in a folder...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    the only truck with this arrangement that comes to my mind was used as a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
leading truck on some British steamers, I remember a picture in a TRAINS 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
magazine from the fifties. The spring arrangement would fit British 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
practice.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9828
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Mystery Trailing Truck
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I would have never guessed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the good info Gerold. At least that gives me somewhere to look.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 3:24:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Trailing Truck

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean Naylor wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have another mystery for you. I am listing items tonight and I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > pulled this truck from my parts box. I have no use for it and I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > therefore am listing it. I would like it to go to someone who can use it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > maybe one of you experts out there can help identify it. I will try to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > add pictures here or a link or post them in a folder...
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    the only truck with this arrangement that comes to my mind was used as a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    leading truck on some British steamers, I remember a picture in a TRAINS 
                                                                                                                                                                                    magazine from the fifties. The spring arrangement would fit British 
                                                                                                                                                                                    practice.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9829
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: British Steam Engine makers? - Mystery Trailing Truck
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    A little quick research seems to have told me this pilot / lead truck (or bogie I think they call it) belongs to a Lima or Hornby King Class Locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 3:24:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Trailing Truck

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean Naylor wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have another mystery for you. I am listing items tonight and I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > pulled this truck from my parts box. I have no use for it and I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > therefore am listing it. I would like it to go to someone who can use it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > maybe one of you experts out there can help identify it. I will try to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > add pictures here or a link or post them in a folder...
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    the only truck with this arrangement that comes to my mind was used as a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    leading truck on some British steamers, I remember a picture in a TRAINS 
                                                                                                                                                                                    magazine from the fifties. The spring arrangement would fit British 
                                                                                                                                                                                    practice.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9830
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Varney Metal F-3 Drives
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm sending these 
pictures to add to the discussion about an item on Ebay that has now been found 
to be a Tenshodo drive by Russ S.  I didn't have time before to join in so 
now I'll be a Johnnie come lately. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         These pictures are Varney 
drives used in Varney METAL F-3 engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     1st Picture       Single power 
truck, gear to gear for Metal Varney F-3
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     2nd Picture      
Single power truck, gear to gear WITH drive shaft going to other geared truck 
making it 8 wheel drive This was called the "Brute" drive ( was used for 
the first Varney F-3's with PLASTIC bodies. Also used by Gilbert /American 
Flyer HO F-3's but with metal cover plates on the bottom of the trucks stating 
their name.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    3rd 
Picture         Varney Metal F-3 with 
V-4 motor that was a special design used with this drive
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    4th 
Picture         Single powered 
truck  with Pulley to Pulley / coil spring VARIABLE speed 
drive
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            I 
haven't stated any special order that they were used in or the years 
used/made. Don't have time right now but Greenberg's Guide to Varney by D 
Spanagel can tell you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9831
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: British Steam Engine makers? - Mystery Trailing Truck
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/17/2009 9:22:15 AM EDT, Sean wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    A little quick research seems to have told me this pilot / lead truck (or bogie I think they call it) belongs to a Lima or Hornby King Class Locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    --------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    And a little more research showed that the outside-bearing axle was the lead axle; the second axle had to be inside-bearing in order to clear the cylinders.  Unlike US practice where the cylinders on a 4-X-X locomotive are more or less centered between the lead truck's axles, the King Class had its cylinders pretty much centered on the second axle of the lead truck.  I suppose this had the advantage of shortening the main rod which kept its weight down and reduced dynamic forces; it just meant the shops had to keep two different axle/bearing sets on hand for each lead truck/bogie.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Join ChristianMingle.com® FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area. Start now!                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9832
						From: raymarinaccio
						Date: 4/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney F3's on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I would be interested to se the difference betseen the IMP and Tenshodo drives. looks to me they are one in the same.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, MRLENGAL2U@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> They look a lot, A LOT like the gear boxes that you would find on A Vintage Tenshodo F unit. The Tenshodos had that collar, and used a tube, and used sideframes that were almost identical to the Varneys. I'll see if I can dig one out, and get up a picture of them side by side.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9833
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Metal F-3 Drives
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    You see in those photos, none have the collar on the worm shaft at the main gearbox.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
None have the main gear as far away from the main gear box and the e-bay unit does.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Your photos show the solid, notched driveshaft.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I am guessing International either made the drives, and suppl;ied Tenshodo, or vice-versa.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The catalog itmes for Int'l are dead on for the e-bay unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Case in point:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Tenshodo drawing of an E-7:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.org/tenshodo/impe7aunitdiagram.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
International drawing of E-7:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.org/internationalmodelinc/impe7aunitdiagram.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hmmm.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >       I'm sending these pictures to add to the discussion about an item on Ebay that has now been found to be a Tenshodo drive by Russ S.  I didn't have time before to join in so now I'll be a Johnnie come lately. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      These pictures are Varney drives used in Varney METAL F-3 engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  1st Picture       Single power truck, gear to gear for Metal Varney F-3
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  2nd Picture      Single power truck, gear to gear WITH drive shaft going to other geared truck making it 8 wheel drive This was called the "Brute" drive ( was used for the first Varney F-3's with PLASTIC bodies. Also used by Gilbert /American Flyer HO F-3's but with metal cover plates on the bottom of the trucks stating their name.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 3rd Picture         Varney Metal F-3 with V-4 motor that was a special design used with this drive
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 4th Picture         Single powered truck  with Pulley to Pulley / coil spring VARIABLE speed drive
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         I haven't stated any special order that they were used in or the years used/made. Don't have time right now but Greenberg's Guide to Varney by D Spanagel can tell you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9834
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Metal F-3 Drives
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi "Curmudgeon" & All:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
International (Lou Barnett) was one of the pioneer brass importers, based in New York City, and they commissioned models from a number of Japanese builders including Tenshodo, Takara, etc. before Pacific Fast Mail developed what I believe was an exclusive US relationship with Tenshodo.  So yes, some items sold under the International brand label were manufactured by Tenshodo. Sometimes their ads and catalogs mentioned the Japenese manufacturer's names, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You see in those photos, none have the collar on the worm shaft at the main gearbox.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> None have the main gear as far away from the main gear box and the e-bay unit does.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Your photos show the solid, notched driveshaft.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I am guessing International either made the drives, and suppl;ied Tenshodo, or vice-versa.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The catalog itmes for Int'l are dead on for the e-bay unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Case in point:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Tenshodo drawing of an E-7:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.hoseeker.org/tenshodo/impe7aunitdiagram.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> International drawing of E-7:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.hoseeker.org/internationalmodelinc/impe7aunitdiagram.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hmmm.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >       I'm sending these pictures to add to the discussion about an item on Ebay that has now been found to be a Tenshodo drive by Russ S.  I didn't have time before to join in so now I'll be a Johnnie come lately. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >      These pictures are Varney drives used in Varney METAL F-3 engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  1st Picture       Single power truck, gear to gear for Metal Varney F-3
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  2nd Picture      Single power truck, gear to gear WITH drive shaft going to other geared truck making it 8 wheel drive This was called the "Brute" drive ( was used for the first Varney F-3's with PLASTIC bodies. Also used by Gilbert /American Flyer HO F-3's but with metal cover plates on the bottom of the trucks stating their name.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 3rd Picture         Varney Metal F-3 with V-4 motor that was a special design used with this drive
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 4th Picture         Single powered truck  with Pulley to Pulley / coil spring VARIABLE speed drive
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >         I haven't stated any special order that they were used in or the years used/made. Don't have time right now but Greenberg's Guide to Varney by D Spanagel can tell you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9835
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 4/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: pop-ups
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I work from a Public Library, and it is heavily used here so hard telling.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: pop-ups
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:26:41 -0500
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It's not yahoo.  I suspect your computer may have picked up some malware
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> that's doing it, usually some type of "Trojan".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> These are not really virii, and your firewall doesn't stop them.  You need
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to scan regularly scan for them, as anti-virus programs like Norton don't
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> recognize them..  Adware is a good one, I use two, "Spyware Doctor" and "Reg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Tool". (It's best to have more than one because no one program will catch
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> everything).  Spyware Doctor automatically scans my computer twice a day and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> automatically removes them, there's usually at least one or two.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 7:18 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: pop-ups
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > No Jim, none here, and I do not have any special programs, except 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > an free Ad Aware one a couple years old.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>             Has any body else started receiving pop up messages 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> when viewing the site ? It seems that every time I come into the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> site, to view anything,  a pop up shows up and this started to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> happen after the recent shut down by Yahoo.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>              I have an Ad Aware program to eliminate pop ups and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> I don't receive them any other time until I come into the site.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
It's News. It's Reviews. It's Interviews. It's Free. What Are You Waiting For?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
www.movieline.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9836
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: PFM  Whitcomb ad
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: PFM Whitcomb ad
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I've taken a much closer look at the PFM ad for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Docksider and Plymouth.....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The Docksider in the ad is definitly NOT the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Rivarossi, AHM etc. unit.  The "pose" of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Docksider in the ad fooled me.  The drivers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> are also smaller than the Rivarossi, AHM units.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> As a side comment I think I recall a very nice
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> looking all brass Docksider but have no idea who
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the mfg. was/is.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gem imported an all brass Dockside in the mid 60's.  Not sure who made it, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
but a lot of their models were from Olympia.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9837
						From: Karl Peters
						Date: 4/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: British Steam Engine makers? - Mystery Trailing Truck
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The "King" class also had two cylinders, and the valve gear, between the frames. It is possible that the offset cylinder arrangement was chosen for weight distribution, as well as allowing the piston trust be spread over two axles, instead of one.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9838
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: British Steam Engine makers? - Mystery Trailing Truck
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/18/2009 7:54:02 AM EDT, krlpeters wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    The "King" class also had two cylinders, and the valve gear, between the frames. It is possible that the offset cylinder arrangement was chosen for weight distribution
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    --------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    "A long standing Swindon design constraint...was that the pistons would be level and not slanted. This meant the centre height of the pistons would be the same as the driving wheel axles. The smaller wheels thereby lowered the height of the pistons. At the same time, to achieve the 40,000lb tractive effort, the pistons were enlarged to 16¼” bore and 28” stroke. The outer pair of pistons, acting on the centre wheels, needed to hang either side of the rear wheels of the front bogie. The hidden inner pair of pistons, acting on the front set of driving wheels, hung low between the front wheels of the bogie. Both factors meant a traditional springing arrangement for the bogie was impossible. A compromise design with the front wheels sprung on the outside and the back wheels of the bogie sprung on the inside, produced the distinctive and decidedly odd-looking long front bogie of the Kings."
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Prowl the web long enough and you'll find what you're looking for.  :>P  The rest of the story is at http://www.6023.co.uk/gwr_king_class.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    And the reason for axle-centered pistons?  Elemetary physics.  They produce a smaller downward thrust component when the piston is moving rearward.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Check all of your email inboxes from anywhere on the web.  Try the new Email Toolbar now!                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9839
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 4/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: PFM  Whitcomb ad
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Samhongsa was the manufacturer of the GEM imported 
all brass Dockside.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:10 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: PFM Whitcomb 
  ad
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "oljoeoh" <oljoe@landolls. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
  Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: PFM Whitcomb 
  ad

                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I've taken a much closer look at the PFM ad for 
  the
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Docksider and Plymouth.... .
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The Docksider in the ad 
  is definitly NOT the
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Rivarossi, AHM etc. unit. The "pose" of 
  the
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Docksider in the ad fooled me. The drivers
                                                                                                                                                                                    > are also 
  smaller than the Rivarossi, AHM units.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As a side comment I think I 
  recall a very nice
                                                                                                                                                                                    > looking all brass Docksider but have no idea 
  who
                                                                                                                                                                                    > the mfg. was/is.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gem imported an all brass Dockside in the 
  mid 60's. Not sure who made it, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    but a lot of their models were from 
  Olympia.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9840
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Item number: 290309775329
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi "nvrr49",  That is a good-looking example of the T-1. If Penn Line made only a couple of hundred of these and thousands of Crusaders, these would be what many of us would be lusting after, and justly so! Far from an expert at them, but the eBay example does appear to be older, as Bowser, decades later, modified the boiler casting. One "tell" between the older boiler and new is the rivet detail on the nose and waklway fairing: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://bowser-trains.com/holocos/t1/T1-Loco%2001.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> On Ebay.  I am more of a car collector, but thought this Penn Line 4-4-4-4 looked interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9841
						From: Ron Plyler
						Date: 4/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Item number: 290309775329
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >The Bowser version is superior.  It has a new zamac boiler and tender casting and the newer style motors. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi "nvrr49",  That is a good-looking example of the T-1. If Penn Line made only a couple of hundred of these and thousands of Crusaders, these would be what many of us would be lusting after, and justly so! Far from an expert at them, but the eBay example does appear to be older, as Bowser, decades later, modified the boiler casting. One "tell" between the older boiler and new is the rivet detail on the nose and waklway fairing: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://bowser-trains.com/holocos/t1/T1-Loco%2001.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49" <nvrr49@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > On Ebay.  I am more of a car collector, but thought this Penn Line 4-4-4-4 looked interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9842
						From: Ted Walton
						Date: 4/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I complained about this issue a year or two ago and it got better. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
But it has started again, and maybe caused by new members who don't 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
understand the issues. I get the Vintage HO messages in digest form. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
That means that I don't get individual messages, but the messages are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
grouped together by Yahoo in packets of 25 messages and sent to me as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
one email. If the packet is too large, the email is truncated after a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
certain length and the rest are not present in the email ( I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don't  believe this is Yahoo fault, but maybe my email program or my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Verizon provider). This has happened 3 time in the last week.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The list of messages that are suppose to be in the email are at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
beginning of the digest email (see the the copied example at the end 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
of this email) followed by the individual messages. This 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
truncated  (lost ) of messages has occurred 3 time in the last week 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
or so, where only about half of messages appear. For example on Sat. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I received the digest that started with message:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: Varney F3's on ebay From: John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
and ended with message:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: PFM  Whitcomb ad From: Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Indicating I should have received 25 group messages. The last message 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
in the digest was :
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: more early Athearn Pacific From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
That is I received only the first 9 messages - the rest of the 16 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
messages are lost in cyber space.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The problem is that a few people are continuing to send all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
previous messages in the discussion they are responding to, so the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
single email keeps getting longer and longer and then some one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
responds again without editing and it continues to grow. Keep 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
recycling all those previous messages is not necessary to remind the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
readers what the subject is. Please delete all the repetitive content 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and keep only that content necessary for the reader to understand 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
what your email is responding to. In more plan words, don't be so 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
lazy in editing your email when responding to a previous post. A 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
little work on your part, will save lot of work on my part and I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
think a few (many ) other members also.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
If you don't particular care about my problem, think about what it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
does to the size of the archives and the problems it generates when 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
some one make a search on a subject and the same messages keep 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
popping up because they were continuously recited 10, 15, or more times.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Also, some time Yohoo is going to look at all the space the archive 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
messages are taking up on their server and start putting limits on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
that storage area as they now do on the photo and file sections for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
our group. Then what happens to that great resource that is not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
complete because members didn't bother to properly edit their email responses?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ted Walton
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
EXAMPLE OF DIGEST FORMAT:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Messages In This Digest (25 Messages)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
1a.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: Varney F3's on ebay From: John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
1b.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: Varney F3's on ebay From: curmudgeon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
1c.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: Varney F3's on ebay From: MRLENGAL2U@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
1d.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: Varney F3's on ebay From: Russ Shiel
                                                                                                                                                                                    
1e.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: Varney F3's on ebay From: raymarinaccio
                                                                                                                                                                                    
2a.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: more early Athearn Pacific From: Dst8596587@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
2b.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: more early Athearn Pacific From: Dst8596587@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
2c.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: more early Athearn Pacific From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                    
2d.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: more early Athearn Pacific From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                    
2e.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: more early Athearn Pacific From: curmudgeon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
2f.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: more early Athearn Pacific From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                    
2g.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: more early Athearn Pacific From: the_plainsman
                                                                                                                                                                                    
3a.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mystery Trailing Truck From: Sean Naylor
                                                                                                                                                                                    
3b.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: Mystery Trailing Truck From: Gerold Eckl
                                                                                                                                                                                    
3c.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: Mystery Trailing Truck From: Sean Naylor
                                                                                                                                                                                    
3d.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: British Steam Engine makers? - Mystery Trailing Truck From: Sean Naylor
                                                                                                                                                                                    
3e.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: British Steam Engine makers? - Mystery Trailing Truck From: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Alpvalsys@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
4.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Item number: 290309775329 From: nvrr49
                                                                                                                                                                                    
5a.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: pop-ups From: Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
5b.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: pop-ups From: Charles Windes
                                                                                                                                                                                    
6.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Varney F-3's by John Gascoyne From: the_plainsman
                                                                                                                                                                                    
7a.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Varney Metal F-3 Drives From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                    
7b.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: Varney Metal F-3 Drives From: curmudgeon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
7c.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: Varney Metal F-3 Drives From: the_plainsman
                                                                                                                                                                                    
8.1.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Re: PFM  Whitcomb ad From: Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.0/2065 - Release Date: 4/17/2009 5:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9843
						From: Graeme
						Date: 4/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    In message <0KIB004LJBATZLC2@...>, Ted Walton 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
<trwalton@...> writes
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>The problem is that a few people are continuing to send all the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>previous messages in the discussion they are responding to, so the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>single email keeps getting longer and longer and then some one
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>responds again without editing and it continues to grow.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Ted, I'm reluctant to involve myself in issues of netiquette, but do 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
feel obliged to agree with every word of your message - and I do not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
receive the daily message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I read each message as an individual e-mail, by choice, and often give 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
up when I see repeat after repeat of earlier messages.  Yes, by all 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
means keep *part* of the previous message, to retain context, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
quoting the whole lot, time and again, in completely unnecessary.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sadly, these comments apply to many groups, Yahoo and elsewhere.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Graeme, Scotland
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9844
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ted W.,  Good point, not only for the practical fact that it saves space, but also is a courtesy to those receiving messages in packets, as you are.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Repeating all prior messages within our reply is not necessary to keep the thread going as long as the Subject Line is the same. When scrolling down to the bottom of a threaded subject, all other related messages with the same subject line that are listed can be viewed in their entirety by one click on "Expand Messages." 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
While I try to shorten many of my responses, learned in another group,  likely it has not been as much as I could have, so will make a more conscious effort and encourage all to take this to heart, as it also aides reading archived information easier as well.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ted Walton <trwalton@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(in part)...The problem is that a few people are continuing to send all the previous messages in the discussion they are responding to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Please delete all the repetitive content... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9845
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Boy am I going to get cursed for this. For those receiving their site 
Emails in packets I realize what you are asking. But it is the way you chose to 
receive Emails. I think that if I limit the number of Emails like you 
ask it can limit the information that might be in previous Emails on the 
same thread. And then information previously sent can be confused or get off in 
tangents where the original subject matter gets lost. It also stops things from 
being taken out of context.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            It was 
just like a few weeks ago when a similar type message was sent to me that 
attachments I sent ( before the Yahoo change was made ) couldn't be viewed 
by everyone depending how their settings were. I tried to accommodate others by 
sending cc to them specially. All the time I was thinking why should I change 
the way I do things to accommodate others who could change their settings to get 
attachments but chose not to.  Now if there was NO way for them to receive 
those attachments I would surely try to help them as I always have.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I'm sorry but 
if you want a set up to receive Emails packets that is perfectly your 
business BUT I know I don't intend to end conversation, of a particular 
thread., in the middle of a couple of mails. New subject fine then new Email. 
PLEASE if you would like to discuss this issue further send this Email with 
your response so people can read the whole story what I previously answered. 
.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                             Have 
a nice 
day.                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 5:30 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Please edit your 
  messages
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ted W., Good point, not only for the practical fact that it saves space, 
  but also is a courtesy to those receiving messages in packets, as you are. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Repeating all prior messages within our reply is not necessary to keep 
  the thread going as long as the Subject Line is the same. When scrolling down 
  to the bottom of a threaded subject, all other related messages with the same 
  subject line that are listed can be viewed in their entirety by one click on 
  "Expand Messages." 

                                                                                                                                                                                    While I try to shorten many of my responses, 
  learned in another group, likely it has not been as much as I could have, so 
  will make a more conscious effort and encourage all to take this to heart, as 
  it also aides reading archived information easier as well. W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- 
  In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Ted Walton <trwalton@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    (in part)...The problem is that 
  a few people are continuing to send all the previous messages in the 
  discussion they are responding to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    Please delete all the repetitive 
  content...


                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9846
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I am sorry, But I am with Jim on this one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I myself receive well in excess of 100 emails every day with EBay, work and the two yahoo discussion groups I belong to. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    With the replied to email in the email I am reading, that someone sends, I can refer back to the email that are replying to, to check if I misunderstood something. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    For me.. a packet email would not be a good option. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean

                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9847
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim, Sean and Ted W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Actually, I think we are approaching the topic from different angles. First, no one has to change anything, limit their messages or use a packet system if they are comfortable with how they are operating now. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Some of us like to read our messages on the Yahoo Vintage HO Operators Web Page, and others only use their Yahoo Mailbox; some like me visit both during the day in the course of various communications.  Whichever approach one uses will present a different scenario, so to speak.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Like Jim, I too, like to repeat the message I am replying to, but the reason I don't repeat all the others following that first one is that they already appear at the bottom of the Yahoo Vintage HO Operators web message page, each listed seperately.  And if I want to refer to them all in order, I can click once on the "Expand Messages" words and read everything in order, completely.  It's all right there.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
But if one is receiving and reading messages in their Yahoo Mailbox as many are, one can still go to the bottom of the latest email they are reading and click once on "Messages In This Topic" and it again takes the reader to the whole thread, played out on one page, for instant reference.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
So there is no need to repeat all of the previous messages in each of our latest, as Yahoo does it for us, keeps track of them and displays them with one additional click.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
So some of us may continue just as we are doing and others can chose to eliminate the extra repeats of information that are already saved and recorded right below our latest email/post, with the benefit that webspace can be saved and some fellow members will miss less.  And as one who researches past messages almost every day, those of us who cut down on extra repeats will make research into the archived messages a bit less cumberson.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
There are no must's or shalls on this one, no need to change anything if you are comfortable with how one posts now.  I used that packet system for a week when I began in a Yahoo Group, NYC Transit Modelers Group, that has a heavy message count like here, but had the option of receiveing messages on a real time basis in a Yahoo Mailbox and after one week changed and found it was 1000% better, so would reccommed that Ted W. and other who have packet consider a Yahoo address and mailbox, it need not be your primary mailbox, either.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                    Boy am I going to get cursed for this. For those receiving their site Emails in packets I realize what you are asking. But it is the way you chose to receive Emails. I think that if I limit the number of Emails like you ask it can limit the information that might be in previous Emails on the same thread. And then information previously sent can be confused or get off in tangents where the original subject matter gets lost. It also stops things from being taken out of context.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         It was just like a few weeks ago when a similar type message was sent to me that attachments I sent ( before the Yahoo change was made ) couldn't be viewed by everyone depending how their settings were. I tried to accommodate others by sending cc to them specially. All the time I was thinking why should I change the way I do things to accommodate others who could change their settings to get attachments but chose not to.  Now if there was NO way for them to receive those attachments I would surely try to help them as I always have.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        I'm sorry but if you want a set up to receive Emails packets that is perfectly your business BUT I know I don't intend to end conversation, of a particular thread., in the middle of a couple of mails. New subject fine then new Email. PLEASE if you would like to discuss this issue further send this Email with your response so people can read the whole story what I previously answered. .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                          Have a nice day.                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 5:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Please edit your messages
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Hi Ted W., Good point, not only for the practical fact that it saves space, but also is a courtesy to those receiving messages in packets, as you are. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Repeating all prior messages within our reply is not necessary to keep the thread going as long as the Subject Line is the same. When scrolling down to the bottom of a threaded subject, all other related messages with the same subject line that are listed can be viewed in their entirety by one click on "Expand Messages." 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   While I try to shorten many of my responses, learned in another group, likely it has not been as much as I could have, so will make a more conscious effort and encourage all to take this to heart, as it also aides reading archived information easier as well. W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ted Walton <trwalton@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   (in part)...The problem is that a few people are continuing to send all the previous messages in the discussion they are responding to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Please delete all the repetitive content...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9848
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            
 I'm not gong to spend a lot of time on this. This Is Don D's site. 
 There are two options how to receive Emails. Your choice. Unless Don D 
wants to have things done one specific way I intend to continue to add to 
messages just like now if I feel the best for clarity. Just like this 
message is now 4  messages, 3 of which have been seen before . To keep 
it in context as to what was said I see no problem with dong it this 
way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               Messages 
sent are received one at a time to my Email box (Outlook Express) and I 
respond to those I feel should be answered. For what ever the reason I did 
not, nor have I yet, received that first message where it stated something to 
the effect that if people are to LAZY to do things to suit someone else. At 
first I only knew about the request because somebody answered it. I found it by 
going into the Yahoo site. I personally take offense at being called LAZY 
because I won't change just to make it easier for someone 
else. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              I 
am not computer savvy. I do things a certain way. If Don D decides I should do 
something different I will BUT I will not change to suit anyone. As for 
what you explain (W JAY W) I don't know what or where ""expand messages" 
is . I have no idea what the "messages in the topic" is or 
where.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             As 
for to much space being used up if Emails go back and forth as is suggested I am 
not smart enough to know. Again I will leave those decisions up to the site 
owner.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I have trouble 
when people pull one sentence out of an Email and expand only on that. I have to 
go back and search for the entire Email to read as to why that one sentence is 
mentioned.  Do I write a complaint about they must change ????? NO that is 
their way. I like the entire chain of information to go back to right there 
and not to have to go back to the vintageho Yahoo main page to 
answer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            I'M 
DONE WITH THIS DISCUSSION !!!!!     Again if Don D feels 
what I am doing is wrong and wants it done another way then Don D will inform 
me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             Good Night Mrs. 
Calibash where ever you 
are                   
Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 10:01 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Please edit your 
  messages
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim, Sean and Ted W.,

                                                                                                                                                                                    Actually, I think we are approaching the 
  topic from different angles. First, no one has to change anything, limit their 
  messages or use a packet system if they are comfortable with how they are 
  operating now. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Some of us like to read our messages on the Yahoo 
  Vintage HO Operators Web Page, and others only use their Yahoo Mailbox; some 
  like me visit both during the day in the course of various communications. 
  Whichever approach one uses will present a different scenario, so to 
  speak.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Like Jim, I too, like to repeat the message I am replying to, 
  but the reason I don't repeat all the others following that first one is that 
  they already appear at the bottom of the Yahoo Vintage HO Operators web 
  message page, each listed seperately. And if I want to refer to them all in 
  order, I can click once on the "Expand Messages" words and read everything in 
  order, completely. It's all right there.

                                                                                                                                                                                    But if one is receiving and 
  reading messages in their Yahoo Mailbox as many are, one can still go to the 
  bottom of the latest email they are reading and click once on "Messages In 
  This Topic" and it again takes the reader to the whole thread, played out on 
  one page, for instant reference.

                                                                                                                                                                                    So there is no need to repeat all of 
  the previous messages in each of our latest, as Yahoo does it for us, keeps 
  track of them and displays them with one additional click.

                                                                                                                                                                                    So some of 
  us may continue just as we are doing and others can chose to eliminate the 
  extra repeats of information that are already saved and recorded right below 
  our latest email/post, with the benefit that webspace can be saved and some 
  fellow members will miss less. And as one who researches past messages almost 
  every day, those of us who cut down on extra repeats will make research into 
  the archived messages a bit less cumberson.

                                                                                                                                                                                    There are no must's or 
  shalls on this one, no need to change anything if you are comfortable with how 
  one posts now. I used that packet system for a week when I began in a Yahoo 
  Group, NYC Transit Modelers Group, that has a heavy message count like here, 
  but had the option of receiveing messages on a real time basis in a Yahoo 
  Mailbox and after one week changed and found it was 1000% better, so would 
  reccommed that Ted W. and other who have packet consider a Yahoo address and 
  mailbox, it need not be your primary mailbox, either.

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay 
  W.


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Boy 
  am I going to get cursed for this. For those receiving their site Emails in 
  packets I realize what you are asking. But it is the way you chose to receive 
  Emails. I think that if I limit the number of Emails like you ask it can limit 
  the information that might be in previous Emails on the same thread. And then 
  information previously sent can be confused or get off in tangents where the 
  original subject matter gets lost. It also stops things from being taken out 
  of context.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > It was just like a few weeks ago when a similar type 
  message was sent to me that attachments I sent ( before the Yahoo change was 
  made ) couldn't be viewed by everyone depending how their settings were. I 
  tried to accommodate others by sending cc to them specially. All the time I 
  was thinking why should I change the way I do things to accommodate others who 
  could change their settings to get attachments but chose not to. Now if there 
  was NO way for them to receive those attachments I would surely try to help 
  them as I always have.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'm sorry but if you want a set up to receive 
  Emails packets that is perfectly your business BUT I know I don't intend to 
  end conversation, of a particular thread., in the middle of a couple of mails. 
  New subject fine then new Email. PLEASE if you would like to discuss this 
  issue further send this Email with your response so people can read the whole 
  story what I previously answered. .
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Have a nice day. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 5:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Re: Please edit your messages
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Ted W., Good point, not only for the practical fact that it saves 
  space, but also is a courtesy to those receiving messages in packets, as you 
  are. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Repeating all prior messages within our reply is not 
  necessary to keep the thread going as long as the Subject Line is the same. 
  When scrolling down to the bottom of a threaded subject, all other related 
  messages with the same subject line that are listed can be viewed in their 
  entirety by one click on "Expand Messages." 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > While I try to 
  shorten many of my responses, learned in another group, likely it has not been 
  as much as I could have, so will make a more conscious effort and encourage 
  all to take this to heart, as it also aides reading archived information 
  easier as well. W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Ted Walton <trwalton@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > (in part)...The problem is that a 
  few people are continuing to send all the previous messages in the discussion 
  they are responding to...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Please delete all the repetitive 
  content...
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9849
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Photo Of George Stock GG-1 Kit in Box
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim and All, Finally found a photo of a boxed kit and posted it in the album here titled: George Stock, HO Pioneer.  I had stored the photo away and could not find it last week when were discussing the Stock and Schrader kits and thought it would be of interest, even a week later.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9850
						From: trainliker
						Date: 4/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I am replying to this message after logging into the group area on a "foreign" computer.  (Not my computer).  As you can see, I have snipped all but the most recent in the thread to continue a frame of reference.  This is the usually preferred trim method.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
However, if I had been at home using my email client (Outlook Express) I can't do this.  For some reason, whatever I receive is presented to me as a single object and not editable.  I can delete the whole shebang, or nothing.  Not wanting to leave replies with zero context from the previous post, I therefore usually can't trim posts at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'll be happy to rectify that if somebody can tell me how to get past the technical stumbling block.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          I'm not gong to spend a lot of time on this. This Is Don D's site.  There are two options how to receive Emails. Your choice. Unless Don D wants to have things done one specific way I intend to continue to add to messages just like now if I feel the best for clarity. Just like this message is now 4  messages, 3 of which have been seen before . To keep it in context as to what was said I see no problem with dong it this way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            Messages sent are received one at a time to my Email box (Outlook Express) and I respond to those I feel should be answered. For what ever the reason I did not, nor have I yet, received that first message where it stated something to the effect that if people are to LAZY to do things to suit someone else. At first I only knew about the request because somebody answered it. I found it by going into the Yahoo site. I personally take offense at being called LAZY because I won't change just to make it easier for someone else. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           I am not computer savvy. I do things a certain way. If Don D decides I should do something different I will BUT I will not change to suit anyone. As for what you explain (W JAY W) I don't know what or where ""expand messages" is . I have no idea what the "messages in the topic" is or where.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          As for to much space being used up if Emails go back and forth as is suggested I am not smart enough to know. Again I will leave those decisions up to the site owner.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        I have trouble when people pull one sentence out of an Email and expand only on that. I have to go back and search for the entire Email to read as to why that one sentence is mentioned.  Do I write a complaint about they must change ????? NO that is their way. I like the entire chain of information to go back to right there and not to have to go back to the vintageho Yahoo main page to answer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         I'M DONE WITH THIS DISCUSSION !!!!!     Again if Don D feels what I am doing is wrong and wants it done another way then Don D will inform me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          Good Night Mrs. Calibash where ever you are                   Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9851
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: MODERATOR MRESSAGE! (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Please edit your messag
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have been remiss in not commenting on this.  I don't like to make a lot of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
rules, no matter what you do some people aren't going to like it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
What the original poster said is true, good netiquette  does call for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
replies to be trimmed.   I would prefer if people do delete any superfluous 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
text in their replies (with a little "text deleted" note as I did below). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
In truth though, I'm often as guilty as the next guy in not doing it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
However, what Jim says is also true in the case of a technical discussion 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
one doesn't like to have to go back through umpteen different messages to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
clarify a point.  It's also true that some people have difficulty editing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
their messages for technical reasons.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
There's the same controversy about whether replies are "top posted" or 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"bottom posted".  I top post, just so people don't have to scroll through 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
quoted text to get to the reply.  One list I'm on (not on Yahoo)  uses a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"quote eater"  that deletes everything quoted after the last new post, so if 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
you want to keep any quoted text, you MUST reply AFTER the quote.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
This topic comes up in every list periodically, and it never gets resolved. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
It's just like the proverbial "light bulb" scenario I'm sure you've all seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
many times.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
In summary, yes, I'd prefer if you please trim your posts if you can, but do 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
quote what text you think is necessary.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The RULE is, if you have a problem with how another individual is posting, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
take it up with THEM OFFLIST, if you can't resolve it then let me know.  The 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
topic here is "Vintage HO", not proper net procedure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 10:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Please edit your messages
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
         I'm not gong to spend a lot of time on this. This Is Don D's site. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
There are two options how to receive Emails. Your choice. Unless Don D wants 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
to have things done one specific way I intend to continue to add to messages 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
just like now if I feel the best for clarity. Just like this message is now 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
4  messages, 3 of which have been seen before . To keep it in context as to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
what was said I see no problem with dong it this way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
           Messages sent are received one at a time to my Email box (Outlook 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Express) and I respond to those I feel should be answered. For what ever the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
reason I did not, nor have I yet, received that first message where it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
stated something to the effect that if people are to LAZY to do things to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
suit someone else. At first I only knew about the request because somebody 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
answered it. I found it by going into the Yahoo site. I personally take 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
offense at being called LAZY because I won't change just to make it easier 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
for someone else.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          I am not computer savvy. I do things a certain way. If Don D 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
decides I should do something different I will BUT I will not change to suit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
anyone. As for what you explain (W JAY W) I don't know what or where 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
""expand messages" is . I have no idea what the "messages in the topic" is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
or where.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
         As for to much space being used up if Emails go back and forth as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
is suggested I am not smart enough to know. Again I will leave those 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
decisions up to the site owner.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
       I have trouble when people pull one sentence out of an Email and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
expand only on that. I have to go back and search for the entire Email to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
read as to why that one sentence is mentioned.  Do I write a complaint about 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
they must change ????? NO that is their way. I like the entire chain of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
information to go back to right there and not to have to go back to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
vintageho Yahoo main page to answer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        I'M DONE WITH THIS DISCUSSION !!!!!     Again if Don D feels what I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
am doing is wrong and wants it done another way then Don D will inform me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
         Good Night Mrs. Calibash where ever you are                   Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
H.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
(text deleted) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9852
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: George Stock GG-1
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              Great picture. 
This has to be the earliest of the George Stock GG-1 productions. The drawing in 
the back of the box is showing the original "non working" pantographs that he 
used that were just pieces of shaped wire. One in the up position , one in the 
down position. The sides of these  "wire " pantographs were not even joined 
with any cross pieces.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            It was a 
while later till George Stock started supplying working 
pantographs.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9853
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: MODERATOR MRESSAGE! (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Please edit your messag
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Don D. and Jim H.,  Don, thanks for the clarification on this subject. When I was picking up on a previous commentors request, I offered up the added suggestion of using the extra features here which I, not being a web expert or technician just recently discovered myself, I was not suggesting that folks have to change, but that some might see advantages in doing so.  But no musts or have to's or negatives towards anyone sticking to their tried and true methods, (especially coming from me).  But my "clarfication" unduly took Jim a bit away from both of our favorite subject, our vintage HO models, and for that, Jim, you have my apology.  Now, back to the models and maybe some new discoveries as well!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have been remiss in not commenting on this.  I don't like to make a lot of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> rules, no matter what you do some people aren't going to like it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> What the original poster said is true, good netiquette  does call for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> replies to be trimmed.   I would prefer if people do delete any superfluous 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> text in their replies (with a little "text deleted" note as I did below). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In truth though, I'm often as guilty as the next guy in not doing it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> However, what Jim says is also true in the case of a technical discussion 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> one doesn't like to have to go back through umpteen different messages to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> clarify a point.  It's also true that some people have difficulty editing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> their messages for technical reasons.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> There's the same controversy about whether replies are "top posted" or 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "bottom posted".  I top post, just so people don't have to scroll through 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> quoted text to get to the reply.  One list I'm on (not on Yahoo)  uses a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "quote eater"  that deletes everything quoted after the last new post, so if 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> you want to keep any quoted text, you MUST reply AFTER the quote.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> This topic comes up in every list periodically, and it never gets resolved. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It's just like the proverbial "light bulb" scenario I'm sure you've all seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> many times.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In summary, yes, I'd prefer if you please trim your posts if you can, but do 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> quote what text you think is necessary.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The RULE is, if you have a problem with how another individual is posting, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> take it up with THEM OFFLIST, if you can't resolve it then let me know.  The 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> topic here is "Vintage HO", not proper net procedure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (text deleted)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9854
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: George Stock GG-1
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thnks, I wasn't sure why those pantographs looked uneven and had thought that one had popped into the "up" position. Now I know they were made that way. Glad I had not accidentally deleted the photo years ago, but sorry I don't remember the name of the former owner, it could still be in my notes somewhere....  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           Great picture. This has to be the earliest of the George Stock GG-1 productions. The drawing in the back of the box is showing the original "non working" pantographs that he used that were just pieces of shaped wire. One in the up position , one in the down position. The sides of these  "wire " pantographs were not even joined with any cross pieces.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         It was a while later till George Stock started supplying working pantographs.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9855
						From: Joe Mitchell
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ted Walton <trwalton@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> snip<?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    The mile long messages are the biggest reason that I am leaving this group.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Joe Mitchell
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9856
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Everyone
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I try to delete most of the messages before mine but I also miss, I have been wondering about the effect and I had guessed pertty much that has been summerized, I will try to condense all I send or just not reply.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
It's News. It's Reviews. It's Interviews. It's Free. What Are You Waiting For?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
www.movieline.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9857
						From: James Bartelt
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello,

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a vintage Electric loco that I have no clue who the manufacturer is. I am planning on listing it on eBay and would like to know who made it. It has a cast metal body with a brass underframe and trucks. It has both a Pan and a trolley pole on the roof. The only marking I can see on the unit is a paper label on the bottom that says JAPAN. I am including some pics. Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    James Bartelt
                                                                                                                                                                                    jimbartelt@...

                                                                                                                                                                                    METRO RR Club
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.metrorrclub.org

                                                                                                                                                                                    METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2009
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Joe Mitchell <nycrrmitch@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 1:35:39 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Please edit your messages

                                                                                                                                                                                    









    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Ted Walton <trwalton@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> snip<?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The mile long messages are the biggest reason that I am leaving this group.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Joe Mitchell
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9858
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    It is an International Models, Inc. South Shore 85 
ton electric.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have one assembled, but in the original box still 
with its very crude plans.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The top of the box actually says, 
verbatim:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    "85 TON SOUTHSHORE"  INTERNATIONAL'S"  
"KIT 1250"
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    What I have looks identical in every way, except it 
doesn't have the little "JAPAN" label on it.  And mine is 
unpainted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    By the way, the one trolley pole one pantograph is 
correct per South Shore practice.  This was done so they could run on any 
of the Samuel Insull lines in the Chicago area:  South Shore (CSS&SB), 
North Shore (CNS&M) and the Aurora and Elgin (CA&E).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I believe International also imported one with a 
brass body and "The Brown Book" mentions it and also that the body has no rivet 
detail.  I have a Kawai kit that is also very close to that 
description.  This was a time early in the "imported brass" and yours is 
from that time, although the body is non-brass and cast for that 
one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I think you'll find this to be a little 
collectable, but the paint and having no box will likely hurt.  I could see 
it going in the range of $50-$100 maybe.  But you never know on ebay.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:49 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Electric 
  steeplecab loco ID needed [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello,

                                                                                                                                                                                    I 
  have a vintage Electric loco that I have no clue who the manufacturer is. I am 
  planning on listing it on eBay and would like to know who made it. It has a 
  cast metal body with a brass underframe and trucks. It has both a Pan and a 
  trolley pole on the roof. The only marking I can see on the unit is a paper 
  label on the bottom that says JAPAN. I am including some pics. Any help would 
  be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    James Bartelt
                                                                                                                                                                                    jimbartelt@sbcgloba l.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    METRO RR Club
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.metrorrc lub.org
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2009
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://members. trainorders. com/scrimjimmy/ spring.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  From: Joe Mitchell 
  <nycrrmitch@verizon. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 1:35:39 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 
  Please edit your messages

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou 
  ps.com, Ted Walton <trwalton@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  snip<?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    The mile long messages are the biggest reason that I am 
  leaving this group.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Joe 
  Mitchell
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9859
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi James B.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Your description of both pantograph and trolley pole was a good clue, even before seeing the photos.  How about this from HO Seeker, an International "CNS&M - North Shore" steeplecab which they imported in both brass and diecast versions:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.hoseeker.org/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg10.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, James Bartelt <jimbartelt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have a vintage Electric loco that I have no clue who the manufacturer is. I am planning on listing it on eBay and would like to know who made it. It has a cast metal body with a brass underframe and trucks. It has both a Pan and a trolley pole on the roof. The only marking I can see on the unit is a paper label on the bottom that says JAPAN. I am including some pics. Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > James Bartelt
                                                                                                                                                                                    > jimbartelt@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > METRO RR Club
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://www.metrorrclub.org
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2009
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: Joe Mitchell nycrrmitch@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 1:35:39 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Please edit your messages
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Ted Walton trwalton@ .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > snip<?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The mile long messages are the biggest reason that I am leaving this group.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Joe Mitchell
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9860
						From: bslook@aol.com
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed [2 Attachments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Good afternoon James, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
It appears to be an GE-Alco 80 or 85 ton Steeple Cab Freight Motor. I know that Ken Kidder imported a version of it made by Kumata (KMT) in 1964  & 1965. International Models also imported a version madwithout rivet details around 1955-56. The prototype road name was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chicago South Shore & South Bend R.R. (CSS&SB).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Regards, Brian L.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    







                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9861
						From: bslook@aol.com
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed [2 Attachments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    James, I accidentally sent my previous post before completing a sentence. I had started to write the International version was made by Kawai Models.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best, Brian L.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: James Bartelt <jimbartelt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 2:49 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    [Attachment(s) from James Bartelt included below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have a vintage Electric loco that I have no clue who the manufacturer is. I am planning on listing it on eBay and would like to know who made it. It has a cast metal body with a brass underframe and trucks. It has both a Pan and a trolley pole on the roof. The only marking I can see on the unit is a paper label on the bottom that says JAPAN. I am including some pics. Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    












                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Joe Mitchell <nycrrmitch@verizon. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 1:35:39 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Please edit your messages
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Ted Walton <trwalton@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> snip<?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The mile long messages are the biggest reason that I am leaving this group.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Joe Mitchell
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    







                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9862
						From: James Bartelt
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for all the help and the quick replies. I will be adding it to eBay later tonight with a bunch a Penn Line Passenger cars and parts. If anybody is interested do a search for the seller barteltj.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks again.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    James Bartelt
                                                                                                                                                                                    jimbartelt@...

                                                                                                                                                                                    METRO RR Club
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.metrorrclub.org

                                                                                                                                                                                    METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2009
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 2:30:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed

                                                                                                                                                                                    









    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi James B.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Your description of both pantograph and trolley pole was a good clue, even before seeing the photos.  How about this from HO Seeker, an International "CNS&M - North Shore" steeplecab which they imported in both brass and diecast versions:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.hoseeker .org/internation almodelinc/ internationalmod elincpg10. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    -
                                                                                                                                                                                    
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9863
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi James B.,  You can tell I'm not from the midwest as I'm thinking CSS&SB and typing CNS&M instead.  A midwestern modeler would never make that mistake! I realized my error when I checked to make sure the link I included worked and saw South Shore in big letters on the catalog page. At least it was the correct model, though!W  Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:> Hi James B.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Your description of both pantograph and trolley pole was a good clue,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> even before seeing the photos.  How about this from HO Seeker, an
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> International "CNS&M - North Shore" steeplecab which they imported in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> both brass and diecast versions:(message truncated) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9864
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed [2 Attachments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Kawai may well have made the all brass 
International version.  I don't have one to compare to an actual Kawai 
I have.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    However, the trucks on the Kawai I have are very 
different from the cast body International shown in James' photos (and the one I 
have).  Truck design is different, and the Kawai has little "cowcatcher" 
pilots on each truck.  Also, the Kawai has a different motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  bslook@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 12:34 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Electric 
  steeplecab loco ID needed [2 Attachments
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     James, I accidentally sent my previous post before completing a 
  sentence. I had started to write the International version was made by Kawai 
  Models.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Best, Brian L.


                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  James Bartelt <jimbartelt@sbcgloba l.net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
  Sun, 19 Apr 2009 2:49 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Electric steeplecab 
  loco ID needed [2 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    [Attachment(s) from James Bartelt included below] 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello,

                                                                                                                                                                                    I 
  have a vintage Electric loco that I have no clue who the manufacturer is. I am 
  planning on listing it on eBay and would like to know who made it. It has a 
  cast metal body with a brass underframe and trucks. It has both a Pan and a 
  trolley pole on the roof. The only marking I can see on the unit is a paper 
  label on the bottom that says JAPAN. I am including some pics. Any help would 
  be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  From: Joe Mitchell 
  <nycrrmitch@verizon. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 1:35:39 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 
  Please edit your messages

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Ted Walton <trwalton@.. .> 
  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > snip<?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    The mile long messages are the 
  biggest reason that I am leaving this group.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Joe 
  Mitchell
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9865
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Lindsay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                         Group,                               
 I was going to send pictures from my collection of HObbyline (plastic) 
items to create an album. It was meant as a follow up to the John English metal 
items that I previously sent.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        However because a discussion 
took place about the Lindsay "Stubby" and  I already sent 
pictures of it I figured I would follow up with other Lindsay items. This will 
not talk about Mr. Lindsayper say, just about the engines he produced. In an 
effort to save space I will just say all made between 1951 -1956. Anyone who 
would like to see paperwork (assembly sheets, parts list,etc) about the 
engines can visit HOseeker as all are already there.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Pictures 1 & 2    Pa Alco A 
units only.  Cast metal (zamac)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Pictures 3, 4, 5 & 6    Three 
box fulls containing both FA and FB engine bodies , all different types of 
Lindsay motors / drives, some with flywheels and dummy trucks to finish these 
bodies. Everything I have about the Lindsay FA &  FB units are 
that they are 2's , the word hybrid is used. Again this talking about the 
HO models. Cast metal bodies . Not normally found ( this many) this way in a 
box, but the boxes are original.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Pictures 7 & 8    Cast Brass 
NW-2 mint kit in original box. Only complete brass kit sold by Lindsay that I 
know of. Don't know who did the casting but extremely nice.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Could add a lot more but want to 
limit size of Email due to many pictures. (Don D, if to many pictures at one 
time let me know). Also any one wanting to know / discuss deeper 
Lindsay contact me off site at jimheck@....
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9866
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I've heard of the cause of this. Explorer is presenting you with the original post as an image or text block that is not an editable format.

                                                                                                                                                                                    There is a setting change to fix this...........

                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't have the perfect cure. But you can reset OE to reply in plain text. That way your messages will be completely editable. You can later turn on HTML in OE if you like to try that. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    But for now, you can play safe and go with plain text........

                                                                                                                                                                                    Please explore what the various 'MIME' settings will do before you try to turn those on, later.

                                                                                                                                                                                    ************
                                                                                                                                                                                    To configure Outlook Express to send text only messages see appropriate Outlook Express sections below:
                                                                                                                                                                                    Outlook Express 4.0
                                                                                                                                                                                    • Select "Tools" then click on "Options..."
                                                                                                                                                                                    • Click on "Send" tab
                                                                                                                                                                                    • In the "Mail Sending Format" and "News Sending Format" sections, click on "Plain Text" bullet in both places
                                                                                                                                                                                    • In the "Mail Sending Format" section, click on "Plain Text Settings..." button.
                                                                                                                                                                                    • In the "Plain Text Settings" window and the Message format section
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Click MIME bullet
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Set "Encode text using:" to None.
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Uncheck the "Allow 8-bit characters in headers"
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Set Automatically wrap text at 72
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Check the box in front of "Indent original text with > when replying or forwarding"
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Click OK
                                                                                                                                                                                    • In the "News Sending Format" section, click on "Plain Text Settings..." button.
                                                                                                                                                                                    • In the "Plain Text Settings" window and the Message format section
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Click MIME bullet
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Set "Encode text using:" to None.
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Uncheck the "Allow 8-bit characters in headers"
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Set Automatically wrap text at 72
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Check the box in front of "Indent original text with > when replying or forwarding"
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Click OK
                                                                                                                                                                                    • While still in the "Send" tab, Uncheck "Reply to messages using the format in which they were sent"
                                                                                                                                                                                    • Click on "OK" and on "OK" again.
                                                                                                                                                                                    All of your messages will now be sent as plain text. Outlook Express 4.x can also be configured to send Business Cards (also referred to as vCards) with your e-mail. These are attachments, which show up as strings of unreadable code on most mailing lists. To turn these off:
                                                                                                                                                                                    • Select "Tools" then click on "Stationery..."
                                                                                                                                                                                    • In the "Signature" area, click on the "Signature" button.
                                                                                                                                                                                    • In the "Personal Business Card" area, uncheck the check box in front of "Attach card to all outgoing messages"
                                                                                                                                                                                    • Click on "OK" and on "OK" again.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Outlook Express 5.0, 5.50, and 6.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    • Select "Tools" then click on "Options..."
                                                                                                                                                                                    • Click on "Send" tab
                                                                                                                                                                                    • In the "Mail Sending Format" and "News Sending Format" sections, click on "Plain Text" bullet in both places
                                                                                                                                                                                    • In the "Mail Sending Format" section, click on "Plain Text Settings..." button.
                                                                                                                                                                                    • In the "Plain Text Settings" window and the Message format section
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Click MIME bullet
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Set "Encode text using:" to None.
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Uncheck the "Allow 8-bit characters in headers"
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Set Automatically wrap text at 72
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Check the box in front of "Indent the original text with > when replying or forwarding"
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Click OK
                                                                                                                                                                                    • In the "News Sending Format" section, click on "Plain Text Settings..." button.
                                                                                                                                                                                    • In the "Plain Text Settings" window and the Message format section
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Click MIME bullet
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Set "Encode text using:" to None.
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Uncheck the "Allow 8-bit characters in headers"
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Set Automatically wrap text at 72
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Check the box in front of "Indent the original text with > when replying or forwarding"
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Click OK
                                                                                                                                                                                    • While still in the "Send" tab, Uncheck "Reply to messages using the format in which they were sent"
                                                                                                                                                                                    • Click on "Apply" and then on "OK".
                                                                                                                                                                                    NOTE: It has been brought to my attention that Outlook Express occasionally breaks all lines at the set margin after you send an e-mail message on a reply or forward. So the lines Outlook Express marks with "> " get wrapped after the "> " mark and the recipeient gets something awful to look at and entirely different than what it looked like before you sent it.

                                                                                                                                                                                    To prevent this from happening, you may want to set the margin at 132 (maximum possible value) and break the lines at 72 to 75 characters manually.

                                                                                                                                                                                    All of your messages will now be sent as plain text. Outlook Express can also be configured to send Business Cards (also referred to as vCards) with your e-mail. These are attachments, which show up as strings of unreadable code on most mailing lists. To turn these off:
                                                                                                                                                                                    • Select "Tools" then click on "Options..."
                                                                                                                                                                                    • Click on "Compose" tab
                                                                                                                                                                                    • In the "Business Cards" area, uncheck the check boxes in front of Mail and News for "Include my business card when creating new messages."
                                                                                                                                                                                    • Click on "Apply" and then on "OK".
                                                                                                                                                                                    ************
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 19, 2009, at 12:28 AM, trainliker wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    I am replying to this message after logging into the group area on a "foreign" computer.  (Not my computer).  As you can see, I have snipped .................

                                                                                                                                                                                    However, if I had been at home using my email client (Outlook Express) I can't do this.  For some reason, whatever I receive is presented to me as a single object and not editable.  I can delete the whole shebang, or nothing.  Not wanting to leave replies with zero context from the previous post, I therefore usually can't trim posts at all.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'll be happy to rectify that if somebody can tell me how to get past the technical stumbling block.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                                                                                                                    ---  "jim heckard"  wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                             I'm not gong to spend a lot of time on this. ...................


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9867
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 2:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hi James B.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Your description of both pantograph and trolley pole was a good clue,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
even before seeing the photos.  How about this from HO Seeker, an
                                                                                                                                                                                    
International "CNS&M - North Shore" steeplecab which they imported in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
both brass and diecast versions:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.org/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg10.\
                                                                                                                                                                                    
jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
<http://www.hoseeker.org/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg10\
                                                                                                                                                                                    
.jpg>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Except that's SOUTH shore, CSS&SB.  Still Insull, but that's south and east 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
from the loop, not north.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I believe the Scremento Northern (or one of the lines in that area) also ran 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
locomotives and cars with both a pole and a pan.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9868
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed [2 Attachments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ckinzer@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Kawai may well have made the all brass International version.  I don't 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have one to compare to an actual Kawai I have.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> However, the trucks on the Kawai I have are very different from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> cast body International shown in James' photos (and the one I have).  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Truck design is different, and the Kawai has little "cowcatcher" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> pilots on each truck.  Also, the Kawai has a different motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
without checking my files ( 1.15 AM here and I have to work in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
morning) I think the Kawai is a Baldwin/ Westinghouse Product while the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
cast steeplecab James has is an Alco/ GE . For some reason it looks like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a B/W - maybe the South Shore ordered it that way as they had B/ W locos 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
already, and so it doesnt have the typical GE look. The trucks are the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
giveaway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9869
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I can't tell you who the manufacturer was--but 
likely imported by International Models as they did a similar loco in O 
Scale.  It looks like a typical Baldwin-Westinghouse locomotive built  in 
several weights--I think this one was an 85-ton.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello,

                                                                                                                                                                                    I 
  have a vintage Electric loco that I have no clue who the manufacturer is. I am 
  planning on listing it on eBay and would like to know who made it. It has a 
  cast metal body with a brass underframe and trucks. It has both a Pan and a 
  trolley pole on the roof. The only marking I can see on the unit is a paper 
  label on the bottom that says JAPAN. I am including some pics. Any help would 
  be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9870
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sought?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I've been following this thread with great interest, since my W&OD layout needs two vintage 50-ton BW steeple cab engines, and I'd only been aware of the various Ken Kidder, Suydam, and similar brass models.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I was considering the diecast model under discussion tonight, since I wasn't familiar with it.  Since several members identified this model and its prototype, I'd like to ask for suggestions or tips on which maker if any modeled 50 ton BW engines?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'va attached two photos of the same engine. The Washington & Old Dominion bought #50 new in 1920, and sold it in 1947.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    #51, an identical engine was bought in 1922, and sold in 1944.  That engine was later scrapped, but #50 is still in operation today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Below is a link and quote from don's depot site.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr106.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Locomotive 50 was built by Baldwin-Westinghouse in October, 1920, #53784. In 1947, it became Cedar Rapids & Iowa City 58. In 1955, it was sold to the Kansas City Kaw Valley RR as 507. In 1962, it became Iowa Terminal RR 53, and it was renumbered 50 in 1963. It is now Iowa Traction RR 50.

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    At our last group meeting, we saw pictures of it in operation earlier this year, still as Iowa Traction #50.    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    That's 89 years of continuous operation, so for obvious reasons, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    since this is my retirement dream layout...I need two sturdy vintage BW steeple cab models, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    so I'm asking for any tips or recommendations for a particular model or models 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    that would be a good fit on a vintage truscale brass rail layout 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    with NJ INTL 44 tonners, Ivers 70 tonners, and  Cary/Hobbytown S-2s?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris Brannigan
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 7:18:14 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage Electric steeplecab loco ID needed [2 Attachments

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ckinzer@att. net wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Kawai may well have made the all brass International version. I don't 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > have one to compare to an actual Kawai I have.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > However, the trucks on the Kawai I have are very different from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > cast body International shown in James' photos (and the one I have). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Truck design is different, and the Kawai has little "cowcatcher" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > pilots on each truck. Also, the Kawai has a different motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck,

                                                                                                                                                                                    without checking my files ( 1.15 AM here and I have to work in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    morning) I think the Kawai is a Baldwin/ Westinghouse Product while the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    cast steeplecab James has is an Alco/ GE . For some reason it looks like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    a B/W - maybe the South Shore ordered it that way as they had B/ W
 locos 
                                                                                                                                                                                    already, and so it doesnt have the typical GE look. The trucks are the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    giveaway.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9871
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
If you have not seen it, strongly reccommend you take a look at the current Red Ball etched brass flat kit that they have now for the Baldwin-Westinghouse steeplecab.  I am not well-schooled between the differences between the B, C, D, & E types other than tonnage, but the body/frame kit they offer seems very similar to what you want.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yes the same Red Ball that has been in business since 1939 and operated by Merle Rice since buying it from Howell Day in the 1970's.  Their website is not the easiest to navigate, but you can find the B-W unit pictured on the "Interurbaban" page of their Model Railroad Warehouse website, a bit below their flat injection molded and better known GE steeplecab kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://mrrwarehouse.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9872
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from Chris B included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> *I've been following this thread with great interest, since my W&OD 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> layout needs two vintage 50-ton BW steeple cab engines, and I'd only 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> been aware of the various Ken Kidder, Suydam, and similar brass models.*
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> **
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Those South Shore / North Shore locos are too large to represent # 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
50...  would recommend to modify the Suydam Pacific Electric version, as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the Ken Kidder - which is a Generic B/W 50 to  type - has a really weird 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
drive arrangement with a vertical shaft motor that gives an awkward 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
weight distribution, and little tractive effort.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Cannonball has/ had a generic kit - not sure about availablility status, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
site is a little chaotic  after the last update.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.mrrwarehouse.com/MRW-Made/steeple.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9873
						From: bslook@aol.com
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello Chris, I would say that the closest match to what you are searching for, in vintage brass models would be the Ken Kidder import of the BW Class D Steeple Cab. Attached is a scan of the Kumata made, Kidder import of 1957. It is listed in the 1994 Brown book under "Misc Heavy Electric Locomotives", page 220, row 8. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Brian L.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 9:47 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sought? [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    







                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9875
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks to the group for the opportunity to ask a question that wouldn't get traction (!) in most other groups, and thanks to the folks who responded with some very helpful info.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I made a new photo folder for BW steeple cab models so I can keep track of the suggested models, and so someone coming behind can refer to those photos as a reference.  I frequently do that myself to follow along on discussions of vintage steam that was current when my kids were young and all I could afford was an armchair, MR, and RMC.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I did know about the Red Ball flat brass kit, and I was interested in that until I realized I'd have the same louver vent fabrication job that drove me to the NJ INTL 44 tonners.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    So the KK and the Suydam do look good for now, I like the Suydam sideframes, but the KK drive doesn't bother me, all of this roster is getting repowered with hobbytown or OMI drive trains anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I did learn the quick steeplecab spotter feature that had escaped me up till now.  I can only look at models with three identically sized windows, I hadn't noticed how many versions model engines with a smaller center window.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm still happy to hear more, but I also feel I got some really useful answers already, so I thought I should say thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    PS  I'm in the longwinded message crowd, so I'll snip what's below, but I've seen the problem discussed in many lists, but I don't think I've seen a better take on it from the moderater. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9876
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    MTS also made some very nice smaller CNS&M and CA&E steeplecabs.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
These show up on ebay from time to time - the CNS&M more often.  Sell for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
around $250 or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
It seems to me that ebay sales for CNS&M seem to be usually (or always) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
unpainted.  CA&E usually (or always) painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 6:06 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
recommendations sought?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks to the group for the opportunity to ask a question that wouldn't get 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
traction (!) in most other groups, and thanks to the folks who responded 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with some very helpful info.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I made a new photo folder for BW steeple cab models so I can keep track of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the suggested models, and so someone coming behind can refer to those photos 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
as a reference.  I frequently do that myself to follow along on discussions 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
of vintage steam that was current when my kids were young and all I could 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
afford was an armchair, MR, and RMC.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I did know about the Red Ball flat brass kit, and I was interested in that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
until I realized I'd have the same louver vent fabrication job that drove me 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
to the NJ INTL 44 tonners.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
So the KK and the Suydam do look good for now, I like the Suydam sideframes, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
but the KK drive doesn't bother me, all of this roster is getting repowered 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with hobbytown or OMI drive trains anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I did learn the quick steeplecab spotter feature that had escaped me up till 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
now.  I can only look at models with three identically sized windows, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
hadn't noticed how many versions model engines with a smaller center window.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm still happy to hear more, but I also feel I got some really useful 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
answers already, so I thought I should say thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
PS  I'm in the longwinded message crowd, so I'll snip what's below, but I've 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
seen the problem discussed in many lists, but I don't think I've seen a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
better take on it from the moderater. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9877
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    BTW--there are a couple of these still running daily on the Iowa Traction RR 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
in Mason City.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chris B wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from Chris B included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> *I've been following this thread with great interest, since my W&OD
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> layout needs two vintage 50-ton BW steeple cab engines, and I'd only
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> been aware of the various Ken Kidder, Suydam, and similar brass models.*
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9878
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Glenn, believe it or not, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    #50 on the ITRR that runs everyday 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    was bought in 1920 by the railroad I model, the Washington & Old Dominion, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    and ran until 1947 on the real 4% grades I'm modeling!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 12:37:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sought?

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    BTW--there are a couple of these still running daily on the Iowa Traction RR 
                                                                                                                                                                                    in Mason City.
                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>

                                                                                                                                                                                    > Chris B wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> [Attachment( s) <#TopText> from Chris B included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> *I've been following this thread with great interest, since my W&OD
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> layout needs two vintage 50-ton BW steeple cab engines, and I'd only
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> been aware of the various Ken Kidder, Suydam, and similar brass models.*
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 

                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9879
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sacramento Northern also operated some smaller steeple cabs--50 or so 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
tons--and had 3-way current pickup.  SN was a subsidiary of WP.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I seem to recall some resin kits that used Bachmann GE 44- and 70-ton 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
drives.     gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: <ckinzer@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
recommendations sought?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
>00 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9880
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    A good friend of mine, the late Soph Marty, sent me 
many slides of the IATR locos.  His son is working on a book on the line 
including all its predecessors.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:51 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage BW 50 
  ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sought?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Glenn, believe it or not, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    #50 on the ITRR that runs everyday 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    was bought in 1920 by the railroad I model, the Washington & Old 
  Dominion, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    and ran until 1947 on the real 4% grades I'm modeling!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 12:37:55 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations 
  sought?

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    BTW--there are a couple of these still running daily on the Iowa Traction 
  RR 
                                                                                                                                                                                    in Mason City.
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "Gerold Eckl" 
  <corv8@...>

                                                                                                                                                                                    > Chris B 
  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> [Attachment( s) <#TopText> from Chris B included 
  below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> *I've been following this thread with great 
  interest, since my W&OD
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> layout needs two vintage 50-ton BW 
  steeple cab engines, and I'd only
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> been aware of the various Ken 
  Kidder, Suydam, and similar brass models.*
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  

                                                                                                                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.12.1/2069 - Release 
  Date: 04/20/09 10:36:00
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9881
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    IATR has a gondola snowplow--ex-CNW--that has two 
trees growing in the ballast load. Makes a fun model--I refer to it as a 
"Scenery car".   I'm sure that at some point they had to trim them to 
keep them out of the overhead wire.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:51 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage BW 50 
  ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sought?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Glenn, believe it or not, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    #50 on the ITRR that runs everyday 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    was bought in 1920 by the railroad I model, the Washington & Old 
  Dominion, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    and ran until 1947 on the real 4% grades I'm modeling!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 12:37:55 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations 
  sought?

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9882
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sough
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                    Very impressive!  But let me take this chance to brag on the W&OD's roster of whack job motive power! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'll see their two tree gondola scenery car, and raise them 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    2 home made wooden freight motors, one with portholes that was the best puller on the line for 30 years, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    2 experimental ex-PRR Budd Micheline cars, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    1 Canadian 75 ton switcher, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    2 wwii surplus Whitcomb 65 tonners, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    4 Evans autor railer line cars, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    the second EMC gas-electric ever built, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    an interurban full blown RPO, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    a portable substation, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    and some typical MOW vehicles from Dogpatch!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I didn't even try and include the Manhattan Elevated Railway Forneys pulling streetcar trailers with poles up for lighting, or the GE 44 and 70 tonners that were frequently knocked into ditches in Northern Virginia by unscheduled meets with tractor trailer trucks!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have to scratch bash the wooden home-jobs, the Budd Michelines, and the Evans autorailers, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    so getting two BW steeple cab models running up 4% grades looks easy by comparison.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    PS, I'd be interested in seeing copies of any slides of #50 if you ever get them scanned.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 1:12:45 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sought?

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    IATR has a gondola snowplow--ex- CNW--that has two trees growing in the ballast load. Makes a fun model--I refer to it as a "Scenery car".   I'm sure that at some point they had to trim them to keep them out of the overhead wire.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Chris B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sought?
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Glenn, believe it or not, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    #50 on the ITRR that runs everyday 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    was bought in 1920 by the railroad I model, the Washington & Old Dominion, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    and ran until 1947 on the real 4% grades I'm modeling!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 12:37:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage BW 50 ton Electric steeplecab loco recommendations sought?

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9883
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    THIS WILL BE THE LAST WORD!!!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
How people post their messages in this group is NOT ON TOPIC.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
We have some VERY knowledgeable people here who have been more than willing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
to share their knowledge and expertise with the rest of us who are now 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
afraid to post because they're being criticized for being TOO helpful, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
are now afraid to post because some puckerbutts have taken it upon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
themselves to be moderators of the group.  I might add, that looking back 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
over past messages, the ones that are complaining are also people who have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
NOT done anything to contribute other than complain.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm sorry, but if you don't want to read the messages in the list, then 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
DON'T.  If you're concerned about the volume of email you're getting, you 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
can always select "no email" and read the messages you want to read online.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I will no longer tolerate ANY of the kinds of complaints that started this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
thread.   If you don't like how the list is run, then contact me off list. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I will not allow good contributing members to be driven away by the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
complaints of a few who are upset because things aren't done their way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Nelson" <greenbrier614@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 5:41 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Please edit your messages
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks for mentioning this Ted, as it's on of my pet peeves about Yahoo 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> groups as well. I receive the digest as well (too many groups = too much 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> spam otherwise), and haven't noticed it truncating responses, but it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> involves so much scrolling to read that I often lose my place, or just get 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> frustrated plowing through it all.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The easiest workaround is to click the topic title link and view it on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> forum, so you can clearly see the original message hierarchy. Still, it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> doesn't take more than a few seconds for any of us to highlight all of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> previous text we're not quoting and delete it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nelson 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9884
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks Don.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:12:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Please edit your messages

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    THIS WILL BE THE LAST WORD!!!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                    How people post their messages in this group is NOT ON TOPIC.

                                                                                                                                                                                    We have some VERY knowledgeable people here who have been more than willing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    to share their knowledge and expertise with the rest of us who are now 
                                                                                                                                                                                    afraid to post because they're being criticized for being TOO helpful, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    are now afraid to post because some puckerbutts have taken it upon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    themselves to be moderators of the group. I might add, that looking back 
                                                                                                                                                                                    over past messages, the ones that are complaining are also people who have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    NOT done anything to contribute other than complain.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm sorry, but if you don't want to read the messages in the list, then 
                                                                                                                                                                                    DON'T. If you're concerned about the volume of email you're getting, you 
                                                                                                                                                                                    can always select "no email" and read the messages you want to read online.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I will no longer tolerate ANY of the kinds of complaints that started this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    thread. If you
 don't like how the list is run, then contact me off list. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I will not allow good contributing members to be driven away by the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    complaints of a few who are upset because things aren't done their way.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "Nelson"
 <greenbrier614@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 5:41 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Please edit your messages

                                                                                                                                                                                    > Thanks for mentioning this Ted, as it's on of my pet peeves about Yahoo 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > groups as well. I receive the digest as well (too many groups = too much 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > spam otherwise), and haven't noticed it truncating responses, but it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > involves so much scrolling to read that I often lose my place, or just get 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > frustrated plowing through it all.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The easiest workaround is to click the topic title link and view it on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > forum, so you can clearly see the original message hierarchy. Still, it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > doesn't
 take more than a few seconds for any of us to highlight all of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > previous text we're not quoting and delete it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Nelson


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9885
						From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanx So Much 
Don!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9886
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
Thanks Don...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
===================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    THIS WILL BE THE LAST WORD!!!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9887
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



 
 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Yaayyyy!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Please edit 
  your messages
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanx So Much 
  Don!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9888
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Did Red Ball "beat" Varney?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    To All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Both Varney and Red Ball were originally Los Angeles area firms that began manufacturing in the 1930's, Varney certainly first, in 1936, Red Ball in 1939.  But Varney has been credited with the commercial manufacture and sales of the first recorded mass-produced private owner cars ever made available to the public in HO scale, cars lettered for model railroads, (see Spanagel, pp. 14,15). The cars in question are the colorful Firewater & Kicking Horse boxcar (kit B-43) and the Hollywood & Western refrigerator car (kit R-20), which were introduced in a full page ad in Model Railroader in June of 1948.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The red, yellow and black Firewater & Kicking horse box car, with blue artwork of a bucking bronco, was named after the model railroad owned by a friend of Gordon Varney's, while the similarly colorful Hollywood & Western car, with drawing of a beach girl in two piece swimsuit under a palm tree was lettered for a model railroad operated by Varney employeess in California.  Spanagel tells us that Varney had privately run some cars for them, perhaps before he moved the firm to Chicago, but does not tell us the year or if the design was the same or perhaps a bit more risque. The cars were not advertised or sold to the public, however.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    But it seems that Dale Newton's production of three distinct freight cars lettered in the name of his own model railroad, the Oregon & Nationwide, were overlooked!  The first two of these was cataloged and sold as early as 1942, are listed in Red Ball's November 1st, 1942 "Wartime Price List"  but are not illustrated, almost six years before the Varney cars!  The listings:
                                                                                                                                                                                    O.& N.W. (our own) 50' wood reefer...sides 15c, kit 1.50
                                                                                                                                                                                              (Four color pine-tree herald)   
                                                                                                                                                                                    O.& N.W. 40' W. box (car)............sides 15c, kit 1.50
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have been fortunate to find an example of the first listed, the 50' reefer, built with only the sides, now pictured in my "Plainsman's Picks" album, the last photo. I do not know how long those first two cars were available (and would like to get one of the box car built, a kit, or sides or even see a photo).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The third O&NW car available is one of three kits , "...the New Aluminum Cars" listed on the back page of the August 1946 issue of Red Ball News. Along with Rock Island and Canadian Pacific examples, the O & NW car sides are embossed and printed on foil coated card sides, the O&NW pine tree herald in green, all three kits came with "special Timkin trucks" and listed for $2.25.  A photo will be forthcoming soon.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    So it looks that in the category of commercially manufactured HO models lettered for model railroads, Red ball beat Varney!  Any others in the running?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    These cars commemorating model railroads that both Red Ball and Varney pioneered are in the same sort of category of cars that MDC/Roundhouse issued decades later for John Allen's G&D, and not to be confused with the other humorous cars done by Red Ball and other firms, like the "Itstinks & Howe" chemical tank cars, and the wonderful "Guzlit Beer" reefer. Those are another topic for another time!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Please note that Dale Newton also applied what looked like paper cut out of his hearalds to other cars in his catalog photos, to illustrate how model rails could decorate their own kits, but those were not production cars. (C) Copyrite 2009 W. Jay Wanczyk
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don D., please let me know if this type history is too long for this type of a forum, at least in this spot.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9889
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    You know???

                                                                                                                                                                                    You guys are an all-right bunch of fellows !!!

                                                                                                                                                                                    8^)

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm proud to be here with ya...........

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 20, 2009, at 3:01 PM, Sean Naylor wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks Don.

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Don Dellmann 

                                                                                                                                                                                    THIS WILL BE THE LAST WORD!!!!!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                    How people post their messages in this group is NOT ON TOPIC.

                                                                                                                                                                                    We have some VERY knowledgeable people here who have been more than willing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    to share their knowledge and expertise with the rest of us who are now 
                                                                                                                                                                                    afraid to post because they're being criticized for being TOO helpful, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    are now afraid to post because some ...............
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9890
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Did Red Ball "beat" Varney?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
If you would be kind enough to post a larger image of the 'Oregon &  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nationwide' reefer; I'd sure like to try to make those car sides a few  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
different ways.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have some of the regular Red Ball car sides to mingle, match, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
prototype to, to make new car sides. I've also got a recent cnc-cutter  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
that can engrave card stock. Between a full-sheet photo-printer I have  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and a color laser printer I plan to get soon; I can eventually make  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
some similar O&N carsides of various types.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A quickie project would be new sets of the O&W heralds to plant on  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
newer cars. Complete decals are also very possible......... even on a  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
working Alps printer.........
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I can work up new original art for the heralds if they need to be re- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
drawn after all these years.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
AND....... Many thanks for posting the history of these makers and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
their private cars !!!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     On Apr 20, 2009, at 5:35 PM, the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
....................
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> But it seems that Dale Newton's production of three distinct freight  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> cars lettered in the name of his own model railroad, the Oregon &  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nationwide, were overlooked!  The first two of these was cataloged  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and sold as early as 1942, are listed in Red Ball's November 1st,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1942 "Wartime Price List"  but are not illustrated, almost six years  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> before the Varney cars!  The listings:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> O.& N.W. (our own) 50' wood reefer...sides 15c, kit 1.50
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           (Four color pine-tree herald)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> O.& N.W. 40' W. box (car)............sides 15c, kit 1.50
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have been fortunate to find an example of the first listed, the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 50' reefer, built with only the sides, now pictured in my  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "Plainsman's Picks" album, the last photo. I do not know how long  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> those first two cars were available (and would like to get one of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the box car built, a kit, or sides or even see a photo). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9891
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I do want to apologize publicly to Nelson.  His post just happened to be the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
last one I received after a long heartfelt letter from another member who 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
felt he was being criticized.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The original complainant, who is currently on moderation, is the real 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
culprit, Nelson happened to be an innocent bystander who got caught in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
crossfire.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Again, I'm sorry for any personal slight.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Nelson" <greenbrier614@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 5:41 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Please edit your messages
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks for mentioning this Ted, as it's on of my pet peeves about Yahoo 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> groups as well. I receive the digest as well (too many groups = too much 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> spam otherwise), and haven't noticed it truncating responses, but it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> involves so much scrolling to read that I often lose my place, or just get 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> frustrated plowing through it all.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The easiest workaround is to click the topic title link and view it on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> forum, so you can clearly see the original message hierarchy. Still, it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> doesn't take more than a few seconds for any of us to highlight all of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> previous text we're not quoting and delete it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nelson 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9892
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: [FloridaOScalers] OSN editor Greg Heier dies
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    For those who also work a little bit in O scale, and are familiar with O Scale News/48ft, Greg Heier, editor and chief of O Scale News Passed away last Friday...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Forwarded Message ----
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: David Wiggs <bigwiggs@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: Florida O-Scalers <FloridaOScalers@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 7:41:10 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [FloridaOScalers] OSN editor Greg Heier dies

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Passing of an Icon
                                                                                                                                                                                    Posted by: "Richard Yoder" oscale48@comcast. net richyoda
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:06 pm ((PDT))

                                                                                                                                                                                    Greg Heier Editor of O Scale News, One of our staunch supporters and
                                                                                                                                                                                    promoters of this great hobby has passed away. His passing came as a shock
                                                                                                                                                                                    to me today as I spoke with Joy on the phone. She shared that this past week
                                                                                                                                                                                    was a difficult time with Hospitalization and complications that led to his
                                                                                                                                                                                    final calling home to be with the Lord on Friday. I will never forget the
                                                                                                                                                                                    first time I took a tour of the Illinois Railway museum with Greg as our
                                                                                                                                                                                    tour director. It was a real guy kind of tour. He knew all the equipment. He
                                                                                                                                                                                    knew where to stop and linger and when to share more than the average person
                                                                                                                                                                                    would want to know, yes as train guys he knew the answers to our questions
                                                                                                                                                                                    without hesitation. He
 knew that museum and it's equipment inside out. As a
                                                                                                                                                                                    importer, The magazine he edited was the best source of support I have had.
                                                                                                                                                                                    He and Joy have ben a tremendous asset to me and this hobby. Lets all offer
                                                                                                                                                                                    our condolences and share a word or two of fond memories about Greg on the
                                                                                                                                                                                    list this week. Joy often "lingers" here. Sincerely, Rich Yoder Greg Heier -
                                                                                                                                                                                    July 17, 1941 - April 17, 2009 

                                                                                                                                                                                    PS for those interested there will be a memorial service on May 9th. Contact
                                                                                                                                                                                    me off the list for more infomration.

                                                                                                                                                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9893
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: [On30conspiracy] Re: Removing lettering
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
This one is a bit obscure. But it seems to be a  critical safety tip ..........

                                                                                                                                                                                    This is why you need to beware of some  of the DIY tips that get passed around...........

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 20, 2009, at 9:20 PM, UncaDuck50@... wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                    Re: Removing lettering
                                                                                                                                                                                    Posted by: "John Garaty" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:25 pm (PDT)

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck.
                                                                                                                                                                                    try fondue fuel or campstove fuel as shown here:
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://adunk. ozehosting. com/metho. html
                                                                                                                                                                                    Regards, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    John Garaty
                                                                                                                                                                                    Unanderra in oz
                                                                                                                                                                                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    My friends-
                                                                                                                                                                                       Please be VERY careful !   Methanol can be absorbed through
                                                                                                                                                                                    the SKIN  & cause VERY nasty effects !   A co-worker of my
                                                                                                                                                                                    father's ( Dad was a research chemist for Shell ) was in the habit
                                                                                                                                                                                    of using methanol to clean his test tubes, and thought he would
                                                                                                                                                                                    be okay because he didn't drink it or inhale fumes.......
                                                                                                                                                                                     He was totally blind at age 37, became insane and died at 44.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    PLEASE be careful !
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Doug Rowe
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sparks, NV
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9894
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Did Red Ball "beat" Varney?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Mike B., Will get out better photos soon, as soon as I get the digital camera, as I have other interestng models to show as well, including one locomotive I want to show Jim H. in particular, as it has not been mentioned here before. W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jay, I you would be kind  enough to post a larger image of the 'Oregon &  Nation Wide' reefer; (message truncated) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9895
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Lindsay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
On the Lindsay PA's, photos 1 & 2, is there any other way, besides side steps, of telling them apart from the later, one piece hobbytown of Boston PA shells? I've been told the Lindsay number/marker light housings on the sides of the nose are lower on Lindsay's - is that right? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      Group,I was going to send pictures from my collection of HObbyline (plastic) items to create an album. It was meant as a follow up to the John English metal items that I previously sent.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     However because a discussion took place about the Lindsay "Stubby" and  I already sent pictures of it I figured I would follow up with other Lindsay items. This will not talk about Mr. Lindsayper say, just about the engines he produced. In an effort to save space I will just say all made between 1951 -1956. Anyone who would like to see paperwork (assembly sheets, parts list,etc) about the engines can visit HOseeker as all are already there.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Pictures 1 & 2    Pa Alco A units only.  Cast metal (zamac)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Pictures 3, 4, 5 & 6    Three box fulls containing both FA and FB engine bodies , all different types of Lindsay motors / drives, some with flywheels and dummy trucks to finish these bodies. Everything I have about the Lindsay FA &  FB units are that they are 2's , the word hybrid is used. Again this talking about the HO models. Cast metal bodies . Not normally found ( this many) this way in a box, but the boxes are original.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Pictures 7 & 8    Cast Brass NW-2 mint kit in original box. Only complete brass kit sold by Lindsay that I know of. Don't know who did the casting but extremely nice.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Could add a lot more but want to limit size of Email due to many pictures. (Don D, if to many pictures at one time let me know). Also any one wanting to know / discuss deeper Lindsay contact me off site at jimheck@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9896
						From: morgantownrr
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Huzzah's Don.  It's very depressing, when the world is on fire, millions are starving, and so many are in mortal distress, that for some, the length of their e-mails, perused in comfortable circumstances, is a terrible calamity.  Que lastima.  Morgan
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9897
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Lindsay / Hobbytown PA Differences
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          If you got to HO 
seeker, then into Lindsay, under Lindsay information at the very bottom you will 
see Lindsay / Hobbytown differences. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        This was a drawing I prepared 
when a member of the HOSC&H SIG group. The discussion was , with the 
differences, could the same die be modified to be used for both bodies. I drew 
this to show certain differences and sent it to our newsletter  " The 
Reporting Mark".         
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         ****** WHEN IT 
APPEARED IN OUR NEWSLETTER SOMEONE, I SUSPECT DAVE SPANAGAL, HAD ADDED A DOTTED 
LINE ACROSS THE TOP OF THE HOBBYTOWN BODY WITH A * NOTING A SEPERATE  ROOF 
PART. *****
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      This was NOT part of my original 
drawing and I had NEVER seen this. I didn't notice this change to my drawing had 
been added till I sent to Larry /at HOSEEKER.  Before anyone mentions 
this disregard that detail and you can see differences in the 
bodies some minor.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        I will go down to my collection 
and take side by side and top pictures that you can use to see.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim Heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9898
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Lindsay / Hobbytown PA Differences
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W , All
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               These are 
pictures of the Lindsay and Hobbytown PA bodies ( the painted black/silver 
scheme is the Hobbytown ).  Use this with the drawing I made on the 
HOseeker site ( Remember to disregard the added lines showing a separate top for 
the Hobbytown body. I never included that , have never seen that on a Hobbytown 
PA body and my two Hobbytown PA engines are one piece solid bodies.). Hopefully 
the pictures, with two close ups of certain detail difference, are good enough . 
I know the picture of the tops not the best. If you need more I will 
send.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9899
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Rivarossi Yellowstone  2-8-8-4
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I am seeking some information. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Did Rivarossi make a 2-8-8-4 with small stars centered on the axles of the drivers? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have one. I know it is Rivarossi (it says it). The front pilot deck is broken off (still have it). I do not recognize the pilot truck (although it is definately Rivarossi).  Just never saw one of these before. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A web search has revealed nothing on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks so much in advance.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9900
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Rivarossi Yellowstone  2-8-8-4
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  
  

 
It could be a 4-8-8-2 turned around and detailed differently than a
cab forward.  I did that to one and made it into a C&O 2-8-8-2.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
========================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sean Naylor wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I am seeking some information. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Did Rivarossi make a 2-8-8-4 with small stars centered on the axles of
the drivers? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have one. I know it is Rivarossi (it says it). The front pilot deck
is broken off (still have it). I do not recognize the pilot truck
(although it is definately Rivarossi). Just never saw one of these
before. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
A web search has revealed nothing on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks so much in advance.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9901
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Rivarossi Yellowstone  2-8-8-4
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Can't help you with this one. If 
it is a Rivarossi Yellowstone, strange as it sounds, it's "to new" for me. While 
I have numerous Rivarossi steam they only go up to the 1976-77 productions. (I 
had to set limits on my vintage collection). If they made a 
Yellowstone it would be past 1977. Sorry not more helpful. GOOD 
LUCK
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 9:39 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 
  Yellowstone 2-8-8-4
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello All,

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am seeking some information. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Did Rivarossi make 
  a 2-8-8-4 with small stars centered on the axles of the drivers? 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I 
  have one. I know it is Rivarossi (it says it). The front pilot deck is broken 
  off (still have it). I do not recognize the pilot truck (although it is 
  definately Rivarossi). Just never saw one of these before. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    A web 
  search has revealed nothing on it.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks so much in 
  advance.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9902
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Lindsay / Hobbytown PA Differences
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank You, Jim H.!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Your side by side photos were very helpful and I see a number of differences between Lindsay & hobbytown models; now I will go to your comparison sheet and check to see how many I missed!  It seems that early hobbytown PA versions had the seperate roof panel, though, as I have an example of each, early and later, bought at the same time from a railroad artist at a W. Springfield Show, who had no other models for sale.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The seperate roof panel has a solid radiator fan grill on top, with the same type of "tic-tac-toe" framing on it as the hobbytown RS-3, but angled.  The hobbytown 101K and 215K Alco 2000hp Page 1 plans on HOSeeker show the seperate roof panel, which is how I identified mine.  As I understand it the later hobbytown PA body with the solid roof, but with a fan opening for a seperate screen is # 20000A.  Will try to get the new camera this weekend so I can post side by side photos of both hobbytown versions for you and all to see. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W , All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            These are pictures of the Lindsay and Hobbytown PA bodies ( the painted black/silver scheme is the Hobbytown ).  Use this with the drawing I made on the HOseeker site ( Remember to disregard the added lines showing a separate top for the Hobbytown body. I never included that , have never seen that on a Hobbytown PA body and my two Hobbytown PA engines are one piece solid bodies.). Hopefully the pictures, with two close ups of certain detail difference, are good enough . I know the picture of the tops not the best. If you need more I will send.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                           Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9903
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Hobbytown Album Pictures
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                               Poor 
Hobbyline. You album pictures just got moved down a notch, Since there was 
discussion today concerning Hobbytown PA  Alco's I thought I would send 
pictures for an album of other Hobbytown. (More work for you 
Lennard)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              This will only 
include items that Hobbytown sold with the first bodies they produced. It will 
NOT deal with the numerous frames and drives Hobbytown (Hobbytown of Boston ) 
produced over the years that could be put under many bodies / types of 
other manufacturers, even some Hobbytown might have bought and used from others. 
That would be an enormous file if I did it all.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              The pictures I 
will send were items made in the late 40's through the 50's. None came factory 
painted. However Hobbytown used cast metal (zamac) for the most part but also 
had a brass RDC along with a plastic static model. I will just show the 
PA's  (A's only) and E-7 A&B today. Tomorrow I will show the powered 
metal and static plastic RS-2 or 3 (not sure) plus the brass 
RDC.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm only showing a 
couple today so I don't cause a big delay for people loading pictures on phone 
line internet connections.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
The first two pictures are of Hobbytown metal PA's . I'm not taking apart to 
show the original drive inside. Check HOseeker for that). Normally I only have 
one of any engine. This is one of the few I have two of. I'm proud of these 
engines and the paint scheme I did on them. These were the main passenger 
engines on my old layout. They pulled 7 Athearn plastic streamlined passenger 
cars painted with black roofs, silver bodies with black decals. I thought it was 
a pretty sharp looking passenger train especially since the engines were stock. 
NO modifications of any kind. Just my railroad.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              The 3rd 
 & 4th pictures are Hobbytown E 7 units A&B. Metal and were sold 
undecorated. These engines are both powered and used an "O" Gauge motor ( DC-90 
) in them. This motor used was stock for them. Talk about pulling power. they 
will pull your eye teeth out
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
Again hope interesting and of some value.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9904
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Lindsay / Hobbytown PA Differences
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           Tried to 
delete some of this but my Outlook Express won't let me edit it. The only 
thing I could do would be a new Email and then things discussed get 
lost.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                       
I'm glad you could verify the separate roof part in some. I never saw it so 
I don't write what I don't have. Now I have learned that it was true that some 
had and some didn't. ( Never say never). New information always coming out and 
changing things. That is why no one person knows everything about a subject. I 
always keep an open mind and sometimes even question conventional 
wisdom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:07 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lindsay / 
  Hobbytown PA Differences
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank You, Jim H.!

                                                                                                                                                                                    Your side by side photos were very helpful and I 
  see a number of differences between Lindsay & hobbytown models; now I will 
  go to your comparison sheet and check to see how many I missed! It seems that 
  early hobbytown PA versions had the seperate roof panel, though, as I have an 
  example of each, early and later, bought at the same time from a railroad 
  artist at a W. Springfield Show, who had no other models for sale.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The 
  seperate roof panel has a solid radiator fan grill on top, with the same type 
  of "tic-tac-toe" framing on it as the hobbytown RS-3, but angled. The 
  hobbytown 101K and 215K Alco 2000hp Page 1 plans on HOSeeker show the seperate 
  roof panel, which is how I identified mine. As I understand it the later 
  hobbytown PA body with the solid roof, but with a fan opening for a seperate 
  screen is # 20000A. Will try to get the new camera this weekend so I can post 
  side by side photos of both hobbytown versions for you and all to see. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay W , 
  All
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > These are pictures of the Lindsay and Hobbytown PA bodies 
  ( the painted black/silver scheme is the Hobbytown ). Use this with the 
  drawing I made on the HOseeker site ( Remember to disregard the added lines 
  showing a separate top for the Hobbytown body. I never included that , have 
  never seen that on a Hobbytown PA body and my two Hobbytown PA engines are one 
  piece solid bodies.). Hopefully the pictures, with two close ups of certain 
  detail difference, are good enough . I know the picture of the tops not the 
  best. If you need more I will send.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9905
						From: Ron Plyler
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Rivarossi Yellowstone  2-8-8-4
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    They made a 4-8-8-2 Southern Pacific Cab forward which you could say ran backwards when compared to a normal steam engine.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hello All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I am seeking some information. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Did Rivarossi make a 2-8-8-4 with small stars centered on the axles of the drivers? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have one. I know it is Rivarossi (it says it). The front pilot deck is broken off (still have it). I do not recognize the pilot truck (although it is definately Rivarossi).  Just never saw one of these before. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> A web search has revealed nothing on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks so much in advance.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9906
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Lindsay / Hobbytown PA Differences
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I also have a PA with separate roof panel.  I'll check the box tonight for the kit #.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:47:56 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Lindsay / Hobbytown PA Differences
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
       Tried to delete some of this but my Outlook Express won't let me edit it. The only thing I could do would be a new Email and then things discussed get lost.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   I'm glad you could verify the separate roof part in some. I never saw it so I don't write what I don't have. Now I have learned that it was true that some had and some didn't. ( Never say never). New information always coming out and changing things. That is why no one person knows everything about a subject. I always keep an open mind and sometimes even question conventional wisdom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:07 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lindsay / Hobbytown PA Differences
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thank You, Jim H.!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Your side by side photos were very helpful and I see a number of differences between Lindsay & hobbytown models; now I will go to your comparison sheet and check to see how many I missed! It seems that early hobbytown PA versions had the seperate roof panel, though, as I have an example of each, early and later, bought at the same time from a railroad artist at a W. Springfield Show, who had no other models for sale.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The seperate roof panel has a solid radiator fan grill on top, with the same type of "tic-tac-toe" framing on it as the hobbytown RS-3, but angled. The hobbytown 101K and 215K Alco 2000hp Page 1 plans on HOSeeker show the seperate roof panel, which is how I identified mine. As I understand it the later hobbytown PA body with the solid roof, but with a fan opening for a seperate screen is # 20000A. Will try to get the new camera this weekend so I can post side by side photos of both hobbytown versions for you and all to see. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W , All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> These are pictures of the Lindsay and Hobbytown PA bodies ( the painted black/silver scheme is the Hobbytown ). Use this with the drawing I made on the HOseeker site ( Remember to disregard the added lines showing a separate top for the Hobbytown body. I never included that , have never seen that on a Hobbytown PA body and my two Hobbytown PA engines are one piece solid bodies.). Hopefully the pictures, with two close ups of certain detail difference, are good enough . I know the picture of the tops not the best. If you need more I will send.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9907
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                       Hi Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              If by some chance 
you are talking about the 4-8-8-2  (that is the cab forward) and 
not a Yellowstone go to HO seeker , go to Rivarossi, choose 4-8-8-2 CF. It will 
take you to a second Rivarossi page. Scroll down to the AHM parts catalog 
Scratch Builders Bible (right below the second Rivarossi info page. It shows 
complete drawings and  breakdowns (assembly, parts, etc) for each 
production run and when made. Maybe this will help you. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          This scratch 
Builders Bible shows every AHM/Rivarossi engine, made from 1966 to about 
1977,the production runs and when made. This might help others with other 
AHM / Rivaroossi steamand Diesel engines
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9908
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I awill have to go back and look at to see if it looks  like a kit-bash. It is not a Cab forward..at least not now. I tlooks like it started of as a Big Boy anyway, but has a 2 wheel pilot truck. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I just don't get the stars on the drive axle centers...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 1:29:20 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       Hi Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              If by some chance you are talking about the 4-8-8-2  (that is the cab forward) and not a Yellowstone go to HO seeker , go to Rivarossi, choose 4-8-8-2 CF. It will take you to a second Rivarossi page. Scroll down to the AHM parts catalog Scratch Builders Bible (right below the second Rivarossi info page. It shows complete drawings and  breakdowns (assembly, parts, etc) for each production run and when made. Maybe this will help you. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          This scratch Builders Bible shows every AHM/Rivarossi engine, made from 1966 to about 1977,the production runs and when made. This might help others with other AHM / Rivaroossi steamand Diesel engines
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9909
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Lindsay / Hobbytown PA Differences
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Glad I could help confirm the earliest hobbytown "roof hatch" PA.  I had begun a list of each hobbytown kit change, based upon the ads, when introduced and superceeded and it is interesting to see the many upgrades that he, Chapper of hobbytown did over his decades of ownership.  I should try to finish that sometime and post it in the files.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
You are so right about that, that no one person knows everthing, either.  But by sharing our knowledge here, we can each gain more information than working alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And don't worry about the deletes, as Mike B. pointed out, some of our computer software systems work differently, even though we are on the same page so to speak, so it is not as easy as I first thought!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        Tried to delete some of this but my Outlook Express won't let me edit it. The only thing I could do would be a new Email and then things discussed get lost.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                    I'm glad you could verify the separate roof part in some. I never saw it so I don't write what I don't have. Now I have learned that it was true that some had and some didn't. ( Never say never). New information always coming out and changing things. That is why no one person knows everything about a subject. I always keep an open mind and sometimes even question conventional wisdom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:07 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lindsay / Hobbytown PA Differences
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Thank You, Jim H.!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Your side by side photos were very helpful and I see a number of differences between Lindsay & hobbytown models; now I will go to your comparison sheet and check to see how many I missed! It seems that early hobbytown PA versions had the seperate roof panel, though, as I have an example of each, early and later, bought at the same time from a railroad artist at a W. Springfield Show, who had no other models for sale.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   The seperate roof panel has a solid radiator fan grill on top, with the same type of "tic-tac-toe" framing on it as the hobbytown RS-3, but angled. The hobbytown 101K and 215K Alco 2000hp Page 1 plans on HOSeeker show the seperate roof panel, which is how I identified mine. As I understand it the later hobbytown PA body with the solid roof, but with a fan opening for a seperate screen is # 20000A. Will try to get the new camera this weekend so I can post side by side photos of both hobbytown versions for you and all to see. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > W Jay W , All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > These are pictures of the Lindsay and Hobbytown PA bodies ( the painted black/silver scheme is the Hobbytown ). Use this with the drawing I made on the HOseeker site ( Remember to disregard the added lines showing a separate top for the Hobbytown body. I never included that , have never seen that on a Hobbytown PA body and my two Hobbytown PA engines are one piece solid bodies.). Hopefully the pictures, with two close ups of certain detail difference, are good enough . I know the picture of the tops not the best. If you need more I will send.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9910
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Lindsay/Hobbytown PA differences.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           One thing I 
forgot to add to my drawing is that the window pattern,shape,etc. on the 
sides of the engines are "different".
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9911
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
SP used the stars on driver axles to indicate a specific attribute
of steam engine equipment such as superheater, etc.  The stars could
have been added by a modeler.  The loco could have been a Big Boy cut
down from a 4 wheel lead truck to a 2 wheel lead truck.  I made such a
revision to a Big Boy to make it into a 2-8-8-4 and added an Elesco
feed water heater and different cab and tender.  It makes a great
looking loco.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sean Naylor wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I awill have to go back and look at to see if it looks  like a
kit-bash. It is not a Cab forward..at least not now. I tlooks like it
started of as a Big Boy anyway, but has a 2 wheel pilot truck. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I just don't get the stars on the drive axle centers...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: jim
heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Sent: Tuesday, April
21, 2009 1:29:20 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Subject: [vintageHO]
4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       Hi Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              If by some chance you are
talking about the 4-8-8-2  (that is the cab forward) and not a
Yellowstone go to HO seeker , go to Rivarossi, choose 4-8-8-2 CF. It
will take you to a second Rivarossi page. Scroll down to the AHM parts
catalog Scratch Builders Bible (right below the second Rivarossi info
page. It shows complete drawings and  breakdowns (assembly, parts, etc)
for each production run and when made. Maybe this will help you. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          This scratch Builders Bible
shows every AHM/Rivarossi engine, made from 1966 to about 1977,the
production runs and when made. This might help others with other AHM /
Rivaroossi steamand Diesel engines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9912
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Hobbyline/Lindsay Bodies
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                       All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Since W Jay W and I 
have been exchanging differences in bodies for Hobbytown and Lindsay PA's I want 
to pose a question to all.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          The origin of my 
drawings was because a question was asked in another group years back 
 "Could the same mold/die have been used by both Hobbytown and Lindsay 
,no matter who was first ???    I said NO I didn't think so. 
 If  the changes were just added or subtracted  without any 
detail change I would have said possible, BUT add to that the some details 
would have to be moved I say NO. Shape of the overall mold/die would 
need to be altered, nose wise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               I'm basing 
my opinion on my background not any solid evidence found yet. I have 
machine shop background including tool and die plus heat treating., practical 
experience creating single stage die . I also have schooling on NC and CNC 
( Numerical Control and Computerized Numerical Control ) including programming 
(not just running). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               Using 
this background and a little knowledge I feel there were 2 
separate dies/molds. I don't believe it would be cost effective, if even 
possible, to make the needed changes for one to the other (no matter who used it 
first)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
WHAT DO YOU THINK   ????
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             I have to add why I 
am laughing as I type this. With my background for programming and running 
CNC milling machinery I don't get PC's. The intent, idea is "different. On PC's 
you have menus, in CNC you have sub routines just to cite one 
difference. Also I ran the first CNC 
machinery (just at the change from NC using tapes you created). That would be 
like running the first home PC that was large, slow , different from new 
models of today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                         
The PC  "Dino the Dinosaur"      Jim 
H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9913
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Boo Boo
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                               I started my 
last E mail out using the word Hobbyline in the subject, it should have been 
Hobbytown. Sorry for any confusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9914
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbyline/Lindsay Bodies
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
With the cost of altering dies, I say they were not the same dies. 
Too many very notable differences that would have to be filled in and
then re-cut.  It would be easier to do the initial die cutting than all
the work of altering.  Just my opinion from engineering and building
experience.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
===========================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          Since W Jay W and I have been
exchanging differences in bodies for Hobbytown and Lindsay PA's I want
to pose a question to all.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          The origin of my drawings was
because a question was asked in another group years back  "Could the
same mold/die have been used by both Hobbytown and Lindsay ,no matter
who was first ???    I said NO I didn't think so.  If  the changes were
just added or subtracted  without any detail change I would have said
possible, BUT add to that the some details would have to be moved I say
NO. Shape of the overall mold/die would need to be altered, nose wise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               I'm basing my opinion on
my background not any solid evidence found yet. I have machine shop
background including tool and die plus heat treating., practical
experience creating single stage die . I also have schooling on NC and
CNC ( Numerical Control and Computerized Numerical Control ) including
programming (not just running). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               Using this background and
a little knowledge I feel there were 2 separate dies/molds. I don't
believe it would be cost effective, if even possible, to make the
needed changes for one to the other (no matter who used it first)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             WHAT DO YOU THINK   ????
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             I have to add why I am
laughing as I type this. With my background for programming and running
CNC milling machinery I don't get PC's. The intent, idea is "different.
On PC's you have menus, in CNC you have sub routines just to cite one
difference. Also I ran the first CNC
machinery (just at the change from NC using tapes you created). That
would be like running the first home PC that was large, slow ,
different from new models of today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                         The PC  "Dino
the Dinosaur"      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9915
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbytown/Lindsay PA Bodies
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H. and Don S., 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I agree, I believe two different dies; as in the case of Lindsay to Hobbytown, there would have been much material to add back, the nose for instance to get the more rounded shape.  And the cost of new die work, back in the early 1950's was not prohibitive, either.  The models may have been both sold at the same time as well, although not conclusive proof as Lindsay could have been selling out old stock, I suppose.  I would think it might be easy to find evidence of alterations if the hobbytown dies were examined, too.   Has anyone ever spoken to Howard Mosely (hobbytown of Boston/Bear Locomotive) about this question?  I saw him listed on our roster, but guess he is not active now.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Since W Jay W and I have been exchanging differences in bodies for Hobbytown and Lindsay PA's I want to pose a question to all.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       The origin of my drawings was because a question was asked in another group years back  "Could the same mold/die have been used by both Hobbytown and Lindsay ,no matter who was first ???    I said NO I didn't think so.  If  the changes were just added or subtracted  without any detail change I would have said possible, BUT add to that the some details would have to be moved I say NO. Shape of the overall mold/die would need to be altered, nose wise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            I'm basing my opinion on my background not any solid evidence found yet. I have machine shop background including tool and die plus heat treating., practical experience creating single stage die . I also have schooling on NC and CNC ( Numerical Control and Computerized Numerical Control ) including programming (not just running). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            Using this background and a little knowledge I feel there were 2 separate dies/molds. I don't believe it would be cost effective, if even possible, to make the needed changes for one to the other (no matter who used it first)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          WHAT DO YOU THINK   ????
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          I have to add why I am laughing as I type this. With my background for programming and running CNC milling machinery I don't get PC's. The intent, idea is "different. On PC's you have menus, in CNC you have sub routines just to cite one difference. Also I ran the first CNC machinery (just at the change from NC using tapes you created). That would be like running the first home PC that was large, slow , different from new models of today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                      The PC  "Dino the Dinosaur"      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9916
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: more early Athearn Pacific (properly edited, no less)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I had a query in to a font of knowledge that I know at a major publisher.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
He was on vacation, got back to his e-mails today, and here it the response:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
According to Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains: between 1961 and 1965 Athearn marketed several variations of HO gear-driven B&M prototype 4-6-2 Pacifics. All of them were fairly rough running, resulting in a number of production changes that attempted to get a better running product. No Hi-F (belt driven) production versions were made. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Athearn eventually became frustrated and dropped the entire project. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
My feeling is the rumor mill is totally inaccurate about the bad models being given away. Irv Athearn was a bit of a perfectionist, so I doubt that he would have allowed a bad model out of the plant under any circumstance short of complete destruction. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
He was also very concerned about company confidentiality and product security, so anyone (employees or vendors) discussing his business and/or upcoming projects was literally fired on the spot if he found out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9917
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    This auction was passed along to me offlist by another member,  I would have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
loved to keep it quiet and bid on it myself, but my budget is shot for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
next couple weeks. <G>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(my budget is always shot :-( )
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://cgi.ebay.com:80/John-A-English-METAL-Powered-Alco-FA-Diesel-KIT_W0QQitemZ140313604499QQihZ004QQcategoryZ484QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
or
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://tinyurl.com/cg7u8q
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ending in a few hours.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9918
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbyline/Lindsay Bodies
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Regardless of the question on separate dies etc and subtle differences.....
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A very practical consideration is that Kemtron was still listing a PA body 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
often advertised as being from the Lindsay original in the Walthers catalog 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
as late as 1977.  I doubt "new old stock" would still be floating around 20 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
years after the Hobbytown version came out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 1:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbyline/Lindsay Bodies
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
   All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      Since W Jay W and I have been exchanging differences in bodies for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hobbytown and Lindsay PA's I want to pose a question to all.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      The origin of my drawings was because a question was asked in another 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
group years back  "Could the same mold/die have been used by both Hobbytown 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and Lindsay ,no matter who was first ???    I said NO I didn't think so.  If 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the changes were just added or subtracted  without any detail change I would 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
have said possible, BUT add to that the some details would have to be moved 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I say NO. Shape of the overall mold/die would need to be altered, nose wise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
           I'm basing my opinion on my background not any solid evidence 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
found yet. I have machine shop background including tool and die plus heat 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
treating., practical experience creating single stage die . I also have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
schooling on NC and CNC ( Numerical Control and Computerized Numerical 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Control ) including programming (not just running).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
           Using this background and a little knowledge I feel there were 2 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
separate dies/molds. I don't believe it would be cost effective, if even 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
possible, to make the needed changes for one to the other (no matter who 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
used it first)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
         WHAT DO YOU THINK   ????
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
         I have to add why I am laughing as I type this. With my background 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
for programming and running CNC milling machinery I don't get PC's. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
intent, idea is "different. On PC's you have menus, in CNC you have sub 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
routines just to cite one difference. Also I ran the first CNC machinery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(just at the change from NC using tapes you created). That would be like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
running the first home PC that was large, slow , different from new models 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
of today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                     The PC  "Dino the Dinosaur"      Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9919
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Rivarossi Yellowstone  2-8-8-4
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes--the AC-4-8 and 10-12 classes were all basically "Yellowstones" running 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
backwards--the AC-9's were normally-oriented as they were built as coal 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
burners.  SP used the star on the axle end to designate a particular type of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
lubricator on the driver axles.    gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Ron Plyler" <ron_tallyho@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Rivarossi Yellowstone 2-8-8-4
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> They made a 4-8-8-2 Southern Pacific Cab forward which you could say ran 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> backwards when compared to a normal steam engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Did Rivarossi make a 2-8-8-4 with small stars centered on the axles of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the drivers?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9920
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don D,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        File paperwork with President 
Obama's transportation secretary stating that you need a stimulus package to 
build a railroad in your area. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 6:39 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    This auction was passed along to me offlist by another member, I would have 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    loved to keep it quiet and bid on it myself, but my budget is shot for the 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    next couple weeks. <G>
                                                                                                                                                                                    (my budget is always shot :-( )

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://cgi.ebay. com:80/John- A-English- METAL-Powered- Alco-FA-Diesel- KIT_W0QQitemZ140 313604499QQihZ00 4QQcategoryZ484Q QssPageNameZWDVW QQrdZ1QQcmdZView Item

                                                                                                                                                                                    or

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://tinyurl. com/cg7u8q

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ending 
  in a few hours.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9921
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbyline/Lindsay Bodies
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don D,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       This sounds feasible. Since W Jay W 
mentioned Kemtron took over the Lindsay Stubby they probably ended up with 
the Lindsay Alco dies also.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 6:51 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  Hobbyline/Lindsay Bodies
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Regardless of the question on separate dies etc and subtle 
  differences. ....

                                                                                                                                                                                    A very practical consideration is that Kemtron 
  was still listing a PA body 
                                                                                                                                                                                    often advertised as being from the Lindsay 
  original in the Walthers catalog 
                                                                                                                                                                                    as late as 1977. I doubt "new old stock" 
  would still be floating around 20 
                                                                                                                                                                                    years after the Hobbytown version came 
  out.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
  Tuesday, April 21, 2009 1:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbyline/Lindsay 
  Bodies

                                                                                                                                                                                    All,

                                                                                                                                                                                    Since W Jay W and I have been exchanging differences 
  in bodies for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hobbytown and Lindsay PA's I want to pose a question to 
  all.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The origin of my drawings was because a question was asked in 
  another 
                                                                                                                                                                                    group years back "Could the same mold/die have been used by both 
  Hobbytown 
                                                                                                                                                                                    and Lindsay ,no matter who was first ??? I said NO I didn't 
  think so. If 
                                                                                                                                                                                    the changes were just added or subtracted without any detail 
  change I would 
                                                                                                                                                                                    have said possible, BUT add to that the some details would 
  have to be moved 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I say NO. Shape of the overall mold/die would need to be 
  altered, nose wise.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm basing my opinion on my background not any 
  solid evidence 
                                                                                                                                                                                    found yet. I have machine shop background including tool 
  and die plus heat 
                                                                                                                                                                                    treating., practical experience creating single stage 
  die . I also have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    schooling on NC and CNC ( Numerical Control and 
  Computerized Numerical 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Control ) including programming (not just 
  running).

                                                                                                                                                                                    Using this background and a little knowledge I feel there 
  were 2 
                                                                                                                                                                                    separate dies/molds. I don't believe it would be cost effective, if 
  even 
                                                                                                                                                                                    possible, to make the needed changes for one to the other (no matter 
  who 
                                                                                                                                                                                    used it first)

                                                                                                                                                                                    WHAT DO YOU THINK ????

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have to add why 
  I am laughing as I type this. With my background 
                                                                                                                                                                                    for programming and 
  running CNC milling machinery I don't get PC's. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                    intent, idea is 
  "different. On PC's you have menus, in CNC you have sub 
                                                                                                                                                                                    routines just to 
  cite one difference. Also I ran the first CNC machinery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    (just at the 
  change from NC using tapes you created). That would be like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    running the 
  first home PC that was large, slow , different from new models 
                                                                                                                                                                                    of 
  today.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The PC "Dino the Dinosaur" Jim H 

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9922
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    One major bit of surgery needed in taking out the 
rear pilot truck axle is shortening the frame and crosshead guides.   

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    An interesting "bash" the SP had proposed was to 
equip one or more AC-12's with EMD F-unit cabs for locos assigned to passenger 
service.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 4-8-8-2 
  Rivarossi
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    SP 
  used the stars on driver axles to indicate a specific attribute of steam 
  engine equipment such as superheater, etc.  The stars could have been 
  added by a modeler.  The loco could have been a Big Boy cut down from a 4 
  wheel lead truck to a 2 wheel lead truck.  I made such a revision to a 
  Big Boy to make it into a 2-8-8-4 and added an Elesco feed water heater and 
  different cab and tender.  It makes a great looking loco.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don in 
  VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    =================================================

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean Naylor 
  wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    I awill have to go back and look at to see if it looks  like a 
    kit-bash. It is not a Cab forward..at least not now. I tlooks like it 
    started of as a Big Boy anyway, but has a 2 wheel pilot truck. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    I just don't get the stars on the drive axle centers...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    From: jim heckard 
    <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
    vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 1:29:20 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] 
    4-8-8-2 Rivarossi

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       Hi Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                              If by some 
    chance you are talking about the 4-8-8-2  (that is the cab 
    forward) and not a Yellowstone go to HO seeker , go to Rivarossi, choose 
    4-8-8-2 CF. It will take you to a second Rivarossi page. Scroll down to 
    the AHM parts catalog Scratch Builders Bible (right below the second 
    Rivarossi info page. It shows complete drawings and  breakdowns 
    (assembly, parts, etc) for each production run and when made. Maybe this 
    will help you. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                          This scratch 
    Builders Bible shows every AHM/Rivarossi engine, made from 1966 to about 
    1977,the production runs and when made. This might help others with other 
    AHM / Rivaroossi steamand Diesel engines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
    Jim H  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  

                                                                                                                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9923
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Big Boy Revised into a 2-8-8-4
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
The frame and the pistons were shortened and the cylinders moved
back to the crosshead guides.  A new Varney 2 wheel lead truck was used.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
===============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Glenn476 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    One major bit of surgery needed in
taking out the rear pilot truck axle is shortening the frame and
crosshead guides.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    An interesting "bash" the SP had
proposed was to equip one or more AC-12's with EMD F-unit cabs for
locos assigned to passenger service.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject:
Re: [vintageHO] 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    SP used the stars on driver axles to indicate a specific
attribute of steam engine equipment such as superheater, etc.  The
stars could have been added by a modeler.  The loco could have been a
Big Boy cut down from a 4 wheel lead truck to a 2 wheel lead truck.  I
made such a revision to a Big Boy to make it into a 2-8-8-4 and added
an Elesco feed water heater and different cab and tender.  It makes a
great looking loco.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sean Naylor wrote:
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    I awill have to go back and look at to see if it looks  like
a kit-bash. It is not a Cab forward..at least not now. I tlooks like it
started of as a Big Boy anyway, but has a 2 wheel pilot truck. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    I just don't get the stars on the drive axle centers...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     From:
jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      To:
vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      Sent: Tuesday,
April 21, 2009 1:29:20 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      Subject:
[vintageHO] 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       Hi Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                              If by some chance you
are talking about the 4-8-8-2  (that is the cab forward) and not a
Yellowstone go to HO seeker , go to Rivarossi, choose 4-8-8-2 CF. It
will take you to a second Rivarossi page. Scroll down to the AHM parts
catalog Scratch Builders Bible (right below the second Rivarossi info
page. It shows complete drawings and  breakdowns (assembly, parts, etc)
for each production run and when made. Maybe this will help you. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                          This scratch Builders
Bible shows every AHM/Rivarossi engine, made from 1966 to about
1977,the production runs and when made. This might help others with
other AHM / Rivaroossi steamand Diesel engines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.12.1/2071 - Release Date:
04/21/09 08:30:00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9924
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbytown/Lindsay PA Bodies
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I suspect that somewhere along the way there was a change in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
capabilities of the die casting machines.  Note a lot of diesel kits--they 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
appear that the dies that had all the detail came in from the two sides. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Observe a Varney F-3, for example---there is virtually no detail on the end 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
or nose.  The roof takes an insert piece to get the fans and such.  I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
some Schorr F-3's in OO that are similar.  Atwater (GMC, then All Nation) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
had to make the body of their F-3 in several pieces.  By the time that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Athearn / Globe came along with their F-7 the machines were capable of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
having several faces come together to get detail on all sides.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 1:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown/Lindsay PA Bodies
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim H. and Don S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I agree, I believe two different dies; as in the case of Lindsay to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hobbytown, there would have been much material to add back, the nose for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> instance to get the more rounded shape.  And the cost of new die work, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> back in the early 1950's was not prohibitive, either.  The models may have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> been both sold at the same time as well, although not conclusive proof as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Lindsay could have been selling out old stock, I suppose.  I would think 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> it might be easy to find evidence of alterations if the hobbytown dies 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> were examined, too.   Has anyone ever spoken to Howard Mosely (hobbytown 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of Boston/Bear Locomotive) about this question?  I saw him listed on our 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> roster, but guess he is not active now.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>    All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>       Since W Jay W and I have been exchanging differences in bodies for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Hobbytown and Lindsay PA's I want to pose a question to all.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>       The origin of my drawings was because a question was asked in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> another group years back  "Could the same mold/die have been used by both 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Hobbytown and Lindsay ,no matter who was first ???    I said NO I didn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> think so.  If  the changes were just added or subtracted  without any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> detail change I would have said possible, BUT add to that the some 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> details would have to be moved I say NO. Shape of the overall mold/die 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> would need to be altered, nose wise.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>            I'm basing my opinion on my background not any solid evidence 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> found yet. I have machine shop background including tool and die plus 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> heat treating., practical experience creating single stage die . I also 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> have schooling on NC and CNC ( Numerical Control and Computerized 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Numerical Control ) including programming (not just running).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>            Using this background and a little knowledge I feel there were 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 2 separate dies/molds. I don't believe it would be cost effective, if 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> even possible, to make the needed changes for one to the other (no matter 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> who used it first)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>          WHAT DO YOU THINK   ????
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>          I have to add why I am laughing as I type this. With my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> background for programming and running CNC milling machinery I don't get 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> PC's. The intent, idea is "different. On PC's you have menus, in CNC you 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> have sub routines just to cite one difference. Also I ran the first CNC 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> machinery (just at the change from NC using tapes you created). That 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> would be like running the first home PC that was large, slow , different 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> from new models of today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>                      The PC  "Dino the Dinosaur"      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.12.1/2071 - Release Date: 04/21/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9925
						From: Nelson
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Please edit your messages
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks, Don. I'll take off my flack jacket.  ;-)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I do want to apologize publicly to Nelson.  His post just happened to be the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> last one I received after a long heartfelt letter from another member who 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> felt he was being criticized.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The original complainant, who is currently on moderation, is the real 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> culprit, Nelson happened to be an innocent bystander who got caught in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> crossfire.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Again, I'm sorry for any personal slight.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9926
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
Glenn476 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
  

  
                                                                                                                                                                                    One major bit of surgery needed in
taking out the rear pilot truck axle is shortening the frame and
crosshead guides.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    An interesting "bash" the SP had
proposed was to equip one or more AC-12's with EMD F-unit cabs for
locos assigned to passenger service.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Really!! I love such "What if" projects!  Is there any documentation /
drawings for this? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Baldwin tried to sell a Duplex Cab Forward to the Santa Fe, with
sharknose styling... maybe this might have had a similar shape. Pic
attached. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9927
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm going to guess the item was in Church's book on 
the cab forwards--I'll go out to "the basement" tomorrow and look for it--  
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:29 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 4-8-8-2 
  Rivarossi [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    An interesting "bash" the SP had proposed was 
    to equip one or more AC-12's with EMD F-unit cabs for locos assigned to 
    passenger service.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    Really!! I love such 
  "What if" projects!  Is there any documentation / drawings for this? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9928
						From: Nelson
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Rivarossi Yellowstone  2-8-8-4
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    It sounds like a modified Cab Forward. Rivarossi never made a Yellowstone, and the pilot decks/cylinders on their Cab Forwards were prone to breakage like that.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9929
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
Imagine that with the Baldwin Baby-Face cab..............

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 22, 2009, at 1:29 AM, Gerold Eckl wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    [Attachment(s) from Gerold Eckl included below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Glenn476 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    One major bit of surgery needed in taking out the rear pilot truck axle is shortening the frame and crosshead guides.  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    An interesting "bash" the SP had proposed was to equip one or more AC-12's with EMD F-unit cabs for locos assigned to passenger service.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    Really!! I love such "What if" projects!  Is there any documentation / drawings for this? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Baldwin tried to sell a Duplex Cab Forward to the Santa Fe, with sharknose styling... maybe this might have had a similar shape. Pic attached. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold

                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachment(s) from Gerold Eckl
                                                                                                                                                                                    1 of 1 Photo(s)

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9930
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Hobbytown Contiued
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                          These pictures are 
more of early first run items by Hobbytown. Again they are Hobbytown bodies / 
Hobbytown drives plus a static plastic engine. ( There were many later Hobbytown 
drives used with other manufacturer bodies and even kits by Hobbytown using 
other bodies.) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      First 
picture           Hobbytown 
RDC 2   Brass body with zamac parts. Only style of RDC by Hobbytown I 
know was made. Very unique Hobbytown drive. Probably the only one used by 
Hobbytown because of the length of the RDC.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      Second picture       Alco Metal 1600 HP Road Switcher. Will 
leave it up to the experts. Is it a RS 2 or 3 ?  Hobbytown, along with many 
other HO companies didn't specify a type just a description of the 
engine. I just write what the HO company called them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      Last 
picture            Hobbytown 
plastic static kit of the Alco 1600 HP Road Switcher. Only plastic kit I know 
made by Hobbytown. This is dummy but I'm sure some had powered 
theirs.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         Any additional pictures of 
different angles / views needed let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9931
						From: Riverboy
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbytown Contiued [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I'd say both " road switchers " are Alco RS3's as they have the battery box on the walkway . I believe that is a major spotting feature .
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Tod

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Wed, 4/22/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown Contiued [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: lennard@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 9:45 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          These pictures are more of early first run items by Hobbytown. Again they are Hobbytown bodies / Hobbytown drives plus a static plastic engine. ( There were many later Hobbytown drives used with other manufacturer bodies and even kits by Hobbytown using other bodies.) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      First picture           Hobbytown RDC 2   Brass body with zamac parts. Only style of RDC by Hobbytown I know was made. Very unique Hobbytown drive. Probably the only one used by Hobbytown because of the length of the RDC.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      Second picture       Alco Metal 1600 HP Road Switcher. Will leave it up to the experts. Is it a RS 2 or 3 ?  Hobbytown, along with many other HO companies didn't specify a type just a description of the engine. I just write what the HO company called them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      Last picture            Hobbytown plastic static kit of the Alco 1600 HP Road Switcher. Only plastic kit I know made by Hobbytown. This is dummy but I'm sure some had powered theirs.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         Any additional pictures of different angles / views needed let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9932
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbytown Contiued [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/22/2009 9:48:16 AM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Alco Metal 1600 HP Road Switcher. Will leave it up to the experts. Is it a RS 2 or 3 ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    It's an RS-3.  RS-2s were only rated 1500 hp (some later uprated), but the most distinctive feature was the RS-2 fuel tank was under the cab floor with a very visible fuel filler and sight gauge on both side of the cab; these are not present on the Hobbytown model.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hobbytown plastic static kit of the Alco 1600 HP Road Switcher. Only plastic kit I know made by Hobbytown. This is dummy but I'm sure some had powered theirs.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ---------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nice kit; I have two of them.  Hobbytown did offer a power unit for these at one time, but I believe it was dropped from the line either before or at the time the company was moved to New Jersey.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops!
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9933
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    On the subject of John English ALCO FAs, I bought one at TrainFest in Milwaukee last year. The body was heavily deteriorated from zamak rot, but the mechanism was still strong. So I bargained the seller to $5 for it. The intent is, that I take the mechanism from it and fix up a Walthers HH600 engine that had a similar mechanism arrangement that was shot. It's been since November and I still don't have it done, but it looks like that might work. Should be very interesting.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 5:39 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    






    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    This auction was passed along to me offlist by another member,  I would have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
loved to keep it quiet and bid on it myself, but my budget is shot for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
next couple weeks. <G>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(my budget is always shot :-( )
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://cgi.ebay. com:80/John- A-English- METAL-Powered- Alco-FA-Diesel- KIT_W0QQitemZ140 313604499QQihZ00 4QQcategoryZ484Q QssPageNameZWDVW QQrdZ1QQcmdZView Item
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
or
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://tinyurl. com/cg7u8q
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ending in a few hours.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9934
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbytown Contiued [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nice paint on the plastic road switcher.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: lennard@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:45:03 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown Contiued [3 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          These pictures are more of early first run items by Hobbytown. Again they are Hobbytown bodies / Hobbytown drives plus a static plastic engine. ( There were many later Hobbytown drives used with other manufacturer bodies and even kits by Hobbytown using other bodies.) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      First picture           Hobbytown RDC 2   Brass body with zamac parts. Only style of RDC by Hobbytown I know was made. Very unique Hobbytown drive. Probably the only one used by Hobbytown because of the length of the RDC.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      Second picture       Alco Metal 1600 HP Road Switcher. Will leave it up to the experts. Is it a RS 2 or 3 ?  Hobbytown, along with many other HO companies didn't specify a type just a description of the engine. I just write what the HO company called them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      Last picture            Hobbytown plastic static kit of the Alco 1600 HP Road Switcher. Only plastic kit I know made by Hobbytown. This is dummy but I'm sure some had powered theirs.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         Any additional pictures of different angles / views needed let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9935
						From: Mike Sloane
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbytown Contiued [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have three of those Alco's, bought new in (I think) 1959. I painted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and lettered them for my fictitious NVRR and added air hoses and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
headlight lenses. I have them sitting on my "dead line" supposedly 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
awaiting replacement of the failed air-cooled turbochargers (identified 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
by their lengthwise exhaust stacks). They don't look all that bad, even 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
by today's standards.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
It was my recollection that the literature stated that they could be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
just dropped on to Hobbytown drives, but I could never afford such 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
extravagance as a high school student in those days.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I am attaching two images to see if they work with the new process...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Last picture            Hobbytown plastic static kit of the Alco 1600 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> HP Road Switcher. Only plastic kit I know made by Hobbytown. This is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> dummy but I'm sure some had powered theirs.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      Any additional pictures of different angles / views needed let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9936
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                             I 
guess I have been fortunate but never found zamac rot ( I call it zinc pest ) in 
any John English metal products so far.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:06 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] English 
  Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      On the subject of John English ALCO FAs, I bought one at 
        TrainFest in Milwaukee last year. The body was heavily deteriorated from 
        zamak rot, but the mechanism was still strong. So I bargained the seller 
        to $5 for it. The intent is, that I take the mechanism from it and fix 
        up a Walthers HH600 engine that had a similar mechanism arrangement that 
        was shot. It's been since November and I still don't have it done, but 
        it looks like that might work. Should be very interesting.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve 
        Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Don Dellmann 
        <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
          Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: 
          [vintageHO] English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
          vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 5:39 
          PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9937
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Hobbytown Continued II
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                       Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I have been a 
nut for the Penn Central but let me tell you a story behind it. In 1966 I 
started to buy different AHM/Rivarossi steam engines. While I liked the New 
York Central (4-6-4 Hudson especially) it was at a time I was constructing my 
first layout. I wanted a uniform road name. This was at a time that the vintage 
collecting and leaving things untouched  had not kicked in.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I don't know when the real 
Penn Central came into being or the entangled PC started being used. I actually 
started using it on my own in 1966. (Hey maybe they "stole" the entangled PC 
design from me) I hand painted a red P and a white C on the sides of my first 
steam engines. Later after I found out there was a real Penn Central ( I'm 
wasn't into, and still not, full size trains ) I came up with MY railroad still 
using the PC and Penn Central. That is where my Black and Silver paint scheme 
came about on my diesels (My Hobbtown Alcos a prime example ) I also redid my 
steam by putting a big Silver cross on the side of the tenders and the Black PC 
and words Penn Central on it. I found Walthers producing the decals at that 
time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       After that I started to decal many 
items with Penn Central decals by Micro Scale. (Only items that were unpainted 
as I was now in the vintage collecting mode). I don't do it anymore but a 
while ago I did sell a few cheapo Black and Sliver Penn Central Diesels on Ebay. 
Some might still be out there.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9938
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbytown Continued II
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim.  Maybe someday those old PC diesels will be collected like original John Allen G&D cars! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:49:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown Continued II

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I have been a nut for the Penn Central but let me tell you a story behind it. In 1966 I started to buy different AHM/Rivarossi steam engines. While I liked the New York Central (4-6-4 Hudson especially) it was at a time I was constructing my first layout. I wanted a uniform road name. This was at a time that the vintage collecting and leaving things untouched  had not kicked in.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I don't know when the real Penn Central came into being or the entangled PC started being used. I actually started using it on my own in 1966. (Hey maybe they "stole" the entangled PC design from me) I hand painted a red P and a white C on the sides of my first steam engines. Later after I found out there was a real Penn Central ( I'm wasn't into, and still not, full size trains ) I came up with MY railroad still using the PC and Penn Central. That is where my Black and Silver paint scheme came about on my diesels (My Hobbtown Alcos a prime example ) I also redid my steam by putting a big Silver cross on the side of the tenders and the Black PC and words Penn Central on it. I found Walthers producing the decals at that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       After that I started to decal many items with Penn Central decals by Micro Scale. (Only items that were unpainted as I was now in the vintage collecting mode). I don't do it anymore but a while ago I did sell a few cheapo Black and Sliver Penn Central Diesels on Ebay. Some might still be out there.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9939
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have one with the pilot off and another the side 
and main rods crumbled, no problems with diesels.   Roger 
Aultman
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:26 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] English 
  Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                             I 
  guess I have been fortunate but never found zamac rot ( I call it zinc pest ) 
  in any John English metal products so far.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:06 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] English 
    Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        On the subject of John English ALCO FAs, I bought one 
          at TrainFest in Milwaukee last year. The body was heavily deteriorated 
          from zamak rot, but the mechanism was still strong. So I bargained the 
          seller to $5 for it. The intent is, that I take the mechanism from it 
          and fix up a Walthers HH600 engine that had a similar mechanism 
          arrangement that was shot. It's been since November and I still don't 
          have it done, but it looks like that might work. Should be very 
          interesting.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Don 
          Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
            Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: 
            [vintageHO] English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
            vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 
            5:39 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9940
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbytown Continued II
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           If they ever 
would get collected I hope they would be worth a lot of money and I could 
get a royalty.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:59 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hobbytown 
  Continued II
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim.  Maybe someday those old PC diesels will be collected like 
  original John Allen G&D cars! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:49:44 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Hobbytown Continued II

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           I have been 
  a nut for the Penn Central but let me tell you a story behind it. In 1966 
  I started to buy different AHM/Rivarossi steam engines. While I liked the 
  New York Central (4-6-4 Hudson especially) it was at a time I was constructing 
  my first layout. I wanted a uniform road name. This was at a time that the 
  vintage collecting and leaving things untouched  had not kicked 
  in.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         I don't know when the 
  real Penn Central came into being or the entangled PC started being used. I 
  actually started using it on my own in 1966. (Hey maybe they "stole" the 
  entangled PC design from me) I hand painted a red P and a white C on the sides 
  of my first steam engines. Later after I found out there was a real Penn 
  Central ( I'm wasn't into, and still not, full size trains ) I came up with MY 
  railroad still using the PC and Penn Central. That is where my Black and 
  Silver paint scheme came about on my diesels (My Hobbtown Alcos a prime 
  example ) I also redid my steam by putting a big Silver cross on the side of 
  the tenders and the Black PC and words Penn Central on it. I found Walthers 
  producing the decals at that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       After that I started to decal many 
  items with Penn Central decals by Micro Scale. (Only items that were unpainted 
  as I was now in the vintage collecting mode). I don't do it anymore but a 
  while ago I did sell a few cheapo Black and Sliver Penn Central Diesels on 
  Ebay. Some might still be out there.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
  Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9941
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have an ALCo B unit with it in one 
gearbox.   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:26 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] English 
  Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                             I 
  guess I have been fortunate but never found zamac rot ( I call it zinc pest ) 
  in any John English metal products so far.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:06 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] English 
    Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        On the subject of John English ALCO FAs, I bought one 
          at TrainFest in Milwaukee last year. The body was heavily deteriorated 
          from zamak rot, but the mechanism was still strong. So I bargained the 
          seller to $5 for it. The intent is, that I take the mechanism from it 
          and fix up a Walthers HH600 engine that had a similar mechanism 
          arrangement that was shot. It's been since November and I still don't 
          have it done, but it looks like that might work. Should be very 
          interesting.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Don 
          Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
            Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: 
            [vintageHO] English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
            vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 
            5:39 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

    

                                                                                                                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Checked by AVG - 
    www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.12.2/2072 - Release 
    Date: 04/21/09 16:48:00
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9942
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I also had a coach with a badly warped body.  
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:16 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] English 
  Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I have one with the pilot off and another the 
  side and main rods crumbled, no problems with diesels.   Roger 
  Aultman
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:26 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] English 
    Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                             I 
    guess I have been fortunate but never found zamac rot ( I call it zinc pest 
    ) in any John English metal products so far.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:06 
      AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] English 
      Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          On the subject of John English ALCO FAs, I bought one 
            at TrainFest in Milwaukee last year. The body was heavily 
            deteriorated from zamak rot, but the mechanism was still strong. So 
            I bargained the seller to $5 for it. The intent is, that I take the 
            mechanism from it and fix up a Walthers HH600 engine that had a 
            similar mechanism arrangement that was shot. It's been since 
            November and I still don't have it done, but it looks like that 
            might work. Should be very interesting.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve 
            Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Don Dellmann 
            <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Don 
              Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: 
              [vintageHO] English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
              vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 
              5:39 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

    

                                                                                                                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Checked by AVG - 
    www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.12.2/2072 - Release 
    Date: 04/21/09 16:48:00
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9943
						From: Nelson
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    LOL... a Babyface Forward?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sean, can you take some pictures of this beast? I'm curious to see what it looks like.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Imagine that with the Baldwin Baby-Face cab..............
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Milwaukee Wi, USA 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9944
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Nelson,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I plan to this evening.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    My 5 year old has an art show for pre-school, so I plan to after it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Last year, my (now) 6 year old had hers... somehow in our family protrait, she was the tallest an I (represented as being the shortest) just barely surpassed the dog in height. (who was on all fours).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Nelson <greenbrier614@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:33:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    LOL... a Babyface Forward?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean, can you take some pictures of this beast? I'm curious to see what it looks like.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Imagine that with the Baldwin Baby-Face cab......... .....
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Milwaukee Wi, USA


                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9945
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Plasti
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, you mentioned the plastic "hobbytown of Boston" Alco 1600 hp Road Switchers, a true RS-3 model, being powered by some modelers.  "hobbytown of Boston" actually offered three specific narrow frame power chassis for these excellent plastic scale models. (Except for the flimsy handrails, that is! The well detailed Kemtron lost wax stanchions were specifically made as an upgrade for the hobbytown RS-3's and believe they are still available today from Precision Scale Models,  were used by hobbytown later as well in their diecast metal kits.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The unpowered plastic RS-3 kits were announced in the hobbytown ad in the March, 1957 issue of Model Railroader.  Two versions of the plastic kit were manufactured, one, kit # PD100,  molded in all black styrene plastic, listed for $1.29 and kit # PD200, molded in mostly black with orange styrene plastic hoods, packed along with New Haven decals, sold for $1.29.  Both kits were both offered at $1.50 for the pair in their (clearance sale?) ad of October of 1958. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    At the same time, March 1957,  "hobbytown" introduced TWO different narrow frame cast metal chassis to power the plastic Alco Road Switcher with.  Kit #360K had six wheeled "C-C" trucks with all axles powered to model the RSD4/5 using the same RS-3 body and sold for $12.95 and also included the necessary six wheeled Alco switcher sideframes molded in black plastic.  Kit #370K had four wheeled "B-B" trucks with all axles powered to use in the RS-3 units and sold for $11.95 and one used the plastic sideframes in the kit.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    (I will next be placing photos of both of these special narrow framed 1600 hp Alco Road Switcher metal power chassis from my collection in my "Plainsman's Pick's" photo album, as well as a photo of the special six wheeled plastic Alco sideframes which were still available new from "hobbytown" until Howard Mosely closed shop not too long ago.  There is more to the short story of these special power chassis for the Alco Road Switcher. Only nine months later, in December, 1957, "hobbytown" issued a THIRD narrow frame power chassis kit, when they replaced the 370K kit with # 400K,  also with four wheeled "B-B' trucks, all axles powered but with "plastic" gears, selling for $12.95.  But in October of 1958, "hobbytown" advertised a (clearance?) sale of the 400K chassis for $12.95 and that it seems, was the end of their brief run.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    A "hobbytown" flyer illustrating two of the above and two of the kits mentioned below appears on HOSeeker:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.hoseeker.org/hobbytown/hobbytownflier2page1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In the 1950's "hobbytown of Boston" also produced three special power chassis for Globe and Athearn unpowered plastic models.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In December of 1954, Model Railroader, "hobbytown" advertised kit # 126K, an eight wheel power chasssis for the Globe F-7 A unit, with giant DC-90 motor and full eight wheel drive selling $14.95.  Thier (hobbytown's) famous "Multi-Drive " kits were also available for the Globe A unti, Kit 127K and for the Globe B unit Kit 128K, selling for an additional $9.95 each.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The powerchassis for the Athearn GP-9, kit #380K  had eight wheel drive, was announced in the October 1957 Model Railraoder as "Coming November 1, 1957, and was advertised as availabe in the Decemeber, 1957 issue.  And kit # 390K,  an eight wheel drive for the later Athearn F-7, with DC-70 motor also was inroduced at that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Finding one of each of these could make an interesting small collection in itself, and forecast the wide number of retrofit power chasis "hobbytown" marketed in the 1960's and later!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    An intesesting footnote to history, as less than ten years before, "hobbytown" began in 1948 by selling their empty EMD shells that other manufacturers delevoped and sold power chassis and trucks for;  more on that history perhaps tomorrow, along with a list of all late 1940's, 1950's "hobbytown of Boston kits" I had compiled several years ago! Text (C) copyrite 2009 W. Jay Wanczyk
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9946
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Pl
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    All: Minor correction to previous post, the orange and black plastic RS-3 kit # PD200 was priced at $1.49, not the $1.29 my fingers typed!  Now to get outside and do some yard work, the rain has ended!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim H. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim, you mentioned the plastic "hobbytown of Boston" Alco 1600 hp Road
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Switchers, a true RS-3 model, being powered by some modelers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "hobbytown of Boston" actually offered three specific narrow frame power
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> chassis for these excellent plastic scale models. (Except for the flimsy
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> handrails, that is! The well detailed Kemtron lost wax stanchions were
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> specifically made as an upgrade for the hobbytown RS-3's and believe
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> they are still available today from Precision Scale Models,  were used
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> by hobbytown later as well in their diecast metal kits.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The unpowered plastic RS-3 kits were announced in the hobbytown ad in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the March, 1957 issue of Model Railroader.  Two versions of the plastic
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> kit were manufactured, one, kit # PD100,  molded in all black styrene
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> plastic, listed for $1.29 and kit # PD200, molded in mostly black with
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> orange styrene plastic hoods, packed along with New Haven decals, sold
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> for $1.29.  Both kits were both offered at $1.50 for the pair in their
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (clearance sale?) ad of October of 1958.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> At the same time, March 1957,  "hobbytown" introduced TWO different
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> narrow frame cast metal chassis to power the plastic Alco Road Switcher
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> with.  Kit #360K had six wheeled "C-C" trucks with all axles powered to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> model the RSD4/5 using the same RS-3 body and sold for $12.95 and also
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> included the necessary six wheeled Alco switcher sideframes molded in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> black plastic.  Kit #370K had four wheeled "B-B" trucks with all axles
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> powered to use in the RS-3 units and sold for $11.95 and one used the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> plastic sideframes in the kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (I will next be placing photos of both of these special narrow framed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1600 hp Alco Road Switcher metal power chassis from my collection in my
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "Plainsman's Pick's" photo album, as well as a photo of the special six
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> wheeled plastic Alco sideframes which were still available new from
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "hobbytown" until Howard Mosely closed shop not too long ago.  There is
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> more to the short story of these special power chassis for the Alco Road
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Switcher. Only nine months later, in December, 1957, "hobbytown" issued
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> a THIRD narrow frame power chassis kit, when they replaced the 370K kit
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> with # 400K,  also with four wheeled "B-B' trucks, all axles powered but
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> with "plastic" gears, selling for $12.95.  But in October of 1958,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "hobbytown" advertised a (clearance?) sale of the 400K chassis for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> $12.95 and that it seems, was the end of their brief run.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> A "hobbytown" flyer illustrating two of the above and two of the kits
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> mentioned below appears on HOSeeker:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.hoseeker.org/hobbytown/hobbytownflier2page1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <http://www.hoseeker.org/hobbytown/hobbytownflier2page1.jpg>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In the 1950's "hobbytown of Boston" also produced three special power
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> chassis for Globe and Athearn unpowered plastic models.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In December of 1954, Model Railroader, "hobbytown" advertised kit #
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 126K, an eight wheel power chasssis for the Globe F-7 A unit, with giant
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> DC-90 motor and full eight wheel drive selling $14.95.  Thier
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (hobbytown's) famous "Multi-Drive " kits were also available for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Globe A unti, Kit 127K and for the Globe B unit Kit 128K, selling for an
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> additional $9.95 each.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The powerchassis for the Athearn GP-9, kit #380K  had eight wheel drive,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> was announced in the October 1957 Model Railraoder as "Coming November
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1, 1957, and was advertised as availabe in the Decemeber, 1957 issue. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> And kit # 390K,  an eight wheel drive for the later Athearn F-7, with
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> DC-70 motor also was inroduced at that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Finding one of each of these could make an interesting small collection
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in itself, and forecast the wide number of retrofit power chasis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "hobbytown" marketed in the 1960's and later!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> An intesesting footnote to history, as less than ten years before,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "hobbytown" began in 1948 by selling their empty EMD shells that other
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> manufacturers delevoped and sold power chassis and trucks for;  more on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> that history perhaps tomorrow, along with a list of all late 1940's,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1950's "hobbytown of Boston kits" I had compiled several years ago! Text
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (C) copyrite 2009 W. Jay Wanczyk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9947
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbytown Continued II
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I'd bid on one!
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 12:20:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hobbytown Continued II

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           If they ever would get collected I hope they would be worth a lot of money and I could get a royalty.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Chris B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:59 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hobbytown Continued II
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim.  Maybe someday those old PC diesels will be collected like original John Allen G&D cars! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:49:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown Continued II

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I have been a nut for the Penn Central but let me tell you a story behind it. In 1966 I started to buy different AHM/Rivarossi steam engines. While I liked the New York Central (4-6-4 Hudson especially) it was at a time I was constructing my first layout. I wanted a uniform road name. This was at a time that the vintage collecting and leaving things untouched  had not kicked in.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I don't know when the real Penn Central came into being or the entangled PC started being used. I actually started using it on my own in 1966. (Hey maybe they "stole" the entangled PC design from me) I hand painted a red P and a white C on the sides of my first steam engines. Later after I found out there was a real Penn Central ( I'm wasn't into, and still not, full size trains ) I came up with MY railroad still using the PC and Penn Central. That is where my Black and Silver paint scheme came about on my diesels (My Hobbtown Alcos a prime example ) I also redid my steam by putting a big Silver cross on the side of the tenders and the Black PC and words Penn Central on it. I found Walthers producing the decals at that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       After that I started to decal many items with Penn Central decals by Micro Scale. (Only items that were unpainted as I was now in the vintage collecting mode). I don't do it anymore but a while ago I did sell a few cheapo Black and Sliver Penn Central Diesels on Ebay. Some might still be out there.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9948
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Pl
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    No time for yardwork.  More Hobbytown history please!
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 4:36:10 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Plastic Kits

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    All: Minor correction to previous post, the orange and black plastic RS-3 kit # PD200 was priced at $1.49, not the $1.29 my fingers typed! Now to get outside and do some yard work, the rain has ended! W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim, you mentioned the plastic "hobbytown of Boston" Alco 1600 hp Road
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Switchers, a true RS-3 model, being powered by some modelers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > "hobbytown of Boston" actually offered three specific narrow frame power
                                                                                                                                                                                    > chassis for these excellent plastic scale models. (Except for the flimsy
                                                                                                                                                                                    > handrails, that is! The well detailed Kemtron lost wax stanchions were
                                                                                                                                                                                    > specifically made as an upgrade for the hobbytown RS-3's and believe
                                                                                                                                                                                    > they are still
 available today from Precision Scale Models, were used
                                                                                                                                                                                    > by hobbytown later as well in their diecast metal kits.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The unpowered plastic RS-3 kits were announced in the hobbytown ad in
                                                                                                                                                                                    > the March, 1957 issue of Model Railroader. Two versions of the plastic
                                                                                                                                                                                    > kit were manufactured, one, kit # PD100, molded in all black styrene
                                                                                                                                                                                    > plastic, listed for $1.29 and kit # PD200, molded in mostly black with
                                                                                                                                                                                    > orange styrene plastic hoods, packed along with New Haven decals, sold
                                                                                                                                                                                    > for $1.29. Both kits were both offered at $1.50 for the pair in their
                                                                                                                                                                                    > (clearance sale?) ad of October of 1958.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > At the same time, March 1957, "hobbytown" introduced TWO different
                                                                                                                                                                                    > narrow frame cast metal chassis to power the plastic Alco Road Switcher
                                                                                                                                                                                    > with. Kit #360K had six wheeled "C-C" trucks with all axles powered to
                                                                                                                                                                                    > model the RSD4/5 using the same RS-3 body and sold for
 $12.95 and also
                                                                                                                                                                                    > included the necessary six wheeled Alco switcher sideframes molded in
                                                                                                                                                                                    > black plastic. Kit #370K had four wheeled "B-B" trucks with all axles
                                                                                                                                                                                    > powered to use in the RS-3 units and sold for $11.95 and one used the
                                                                                                                                                                                    > plastic sideframes in the kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > (I will next be placing photos of both of these special narrow framed
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 1600 hp Alco Road Switcher metal power chassis from my collection in my
                                                                                                                                                                                    > "Plainsman's Pick's" photo album, as well as a photo of the special six
                                                                                                                                                                                    > wheeled plastic Alco sideframes which were still available new from
                                                                                                                                                                                    > "hobbytown" until Howard Mosely closed shop not too long ago. There is
                                                                                                                                                                                    > more to the short story of these special power chassis for the Alco Road
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Switcher. Only nine months later, in December, 1957, "hobbytown" issued
                                                                                                                                                                                    > a THIRD narrow frame power chassis kit, when they replaced the 370K kit
                                                                                                                                                                                    > with # 400K, also
 with four wheeled "B-B' trucks, all axles powered but
                                                                                                                                                                                    > with "plastic" gears, selling for $12.95. But in October of 1958,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > "hobbytown" advertised a (clearance?) sale of the 400K chassis for
                                                                                                                                                                                    > $12.95 and that it seems, was the end of their brief run.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > A "hobbytown" flyer illustrating two of the above and two of the kits
                                                                                                                                                                                    > mentioned below appears on HOSeeker:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://www.hoseeker .org/hobbytown/ hobbytownflier2p age1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    > <http://www.hoseeker .org/hobbytown/ hobbytownflier2p age1.jpg>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > In the 1950's "hobbytown of Boston" also produced three special power
                                                                                                                                                                                    > chassis for Globe and Athearn unpowered plastic models.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > In December of 1954, Model Railroader,
 "hobbytown" advertised kit #
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 126K, an eight wheel power chasssis for the Globe F-7 A unit, with giant
                                                                                                                                                                                    > DC-90 motor and full eight wheel drive selling $14.95. Thier
                                                                                                                                                                                    > (hobbytown's) famous "Multi-Drive " kits were also available for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Globe A unti, Kit 127K and for the Globe B unit Kit 128K, selling for an
                                                                                                                                                                                    > additional $9.95 each.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The powerchassis for the Athearn GP-9, kit #380K had eight wheel drive,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > was announced in the October 1957 Model Railraoder as "Coming November
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 1, 1957, and was advertised as availabe in the Decemeber, 1957 issue. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > And kit # 390K, an eight wheel drive for the later Athearn F-7, with
                                                                                                                                                                                    > DC-70 motor also was inroduced at that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Finding one of each of these could make an interesting small collection
                                                                                                                                                                                    > in itself, and forecast the wide number of retrofit power chasis
                                                                                                                                                                                    > "hobbytown" marketed in the 1960's and
 later!
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > An intesesting footnote to history, as less than ten years before,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > "hobbytown" began in 1948 by selling their empty EMD shells that other
                                                                                                                                                                                    > manufacturers delevoped and sold power chassis and trucks for; more on
                                                                                                                                                                                    > that history perhaps tomorrow, along with a list of all late 1940's,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 1950's "hobbytown of Boston kits" I had compiled several years ago! Text
                                                                                                                                                                                    > (C) copyrite 2009 W. Jay Wanczyk
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >


                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9949
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Hobbytown vs Globe/Athearnn F-7 Drive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                        W Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              Before I explain 
the pictures and the reason I sent them I want to respond to some of 
your statements. Since I have to send pictures as a new Email I want 
to add to your statements first..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        First    About 
the two static plastic RS-3's. Knowing there were two (all black plastic and 
orange/black) is a perfect example of trying to collect "one of everything" 
impossible. My collection spans to much already. I wish I could have both, even 
though these are not that expensive to get, but sometimes I have to choose. (See 
Don D we all have small pockets). This was one of those times. Just having the 
entire black plastic one as an example was enough. This happens a lot of times 
and why I only write about the one I have.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Second  You talk about some 
of the many drives Hobbytown provided. Sometimes I think Hobbytown had a drive 
for every HO Diesel made. It would take a very large book to even begin to write 
about the types they provided. I wouldn't even attempt to try. I leave that up 
to someone like you that has done the research or can find the information. Also 
to a person who can explain things very good in the shortest amount of words. ( 
That's something I have a hard time doing )
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       The reason for the pictures is your 
mention of a Hobbytown drive , with the large DC-90 motor, for use in Globe / 
Athearn F-7's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        The pictures I sent are of the 
first drive used in the Globe / Athearn F-7. (The second drive was similar). Not 
to get started on a huge discussion on Athearn F-7 drives I just wanted to show 
this  vs. the Hobbytown drive for it. I really think the first (and second) 
Globe/Athearn drives were the best Athearn ever made overall . Even with Hobbytown having the 
large motor I still feel that first Athearn 
drive was superior in so many ways. (Then after the almost identical 2nd drive 
he cheapened everything up). I can't understand why anyone would change 
from the Athearn to the Hobbytown. Just my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9950
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    OK--I dug out Dr. Robert Church's book on the cab forwards.  The drawing of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the streamlined AC is in the AC-10 chapter, page 104 in my edition--which I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
got somewhere around 1970.  The cab looks like a mix of EMD and Baldwin 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Babyface--not surprising as Baldwin built most of the AC's--only the AC-9's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
were by Lima.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Nelson" <greenbrier614@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:33 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> LOL... a Babyface Forward?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sean, can you take some pictures of this beast? I'm curious to see what it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> looks like.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Imagine that with the Baldwin Baby-Face cab..............
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.12.2/2074 - Release Date: 04/22/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
08:49:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9951
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbytown vs Globe/Athearnn F-7 Drive [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I had gotten one with an identical drive from Dave F awhile back, I still have it, someone had told me that the drive I had here was a United drive, made by United Models specifically for the F7 from Globe/Athearn, what you showed in those pictures cleared a lot of questions up for me, thanks, since this drive works very well, I plan on making changes to the body shell, (Union Pathetic), and it will be a D&RGW unit when I'm done with it, I'm glad your hear to educate us on some of these vintage drives, now I do have a Hobbytown drive, something I never thought I would find...........:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: lennard@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 6:11:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown vs Globe/Athearnn F-7 Drive [4 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       The reason for the pictures is your mention of a Hobbytown drive , with the large DC-90 motor, for use in Globe / Athearn F-7's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9952
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbytown vs Globe/Athearnn F-7 Drive [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I think you are referring to the attachments of the Globe F-7?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ever see an Athearn Dual-Geared Geep?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Same drive, Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosionAthearn/athearngp9dualgeared1957pg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I had gotten one with an identical drive from Dave F awhile back, I still have it, someone had told me that the drive I had here was a United drive, made by United Models specifically for the F7 from Globe/Athearn, what you showed in those pictures cleared a lot of questions up for me, thanks, since this drive works very well, I plan on making changes to the body shell, (Union Pathetic), and it will be a D&RGW unit when I'm done with it, I'm glad your hear to educate us on some of these vintage drives, now I do have a Hobbytown drive, something I never thought I would find...........:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Cc: lennard@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 6:11:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown vs Globe/Athearnn F-7 Drive [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    The reason for the pictures is your mention of a Hobbytown drive , with the large DC-90 motor, for use in Globe / Athearn F-7's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9953
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: My PC Steam Scheme
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                        Chris B , All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             I 
had told you the story about my early Penn Central scheme and how it came 
about.You saw my PA's done in my black and silver scheme. Here is a picture of a 
steam engine that was done for my first layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        This is one of the later, for 
me, 1970 to 1976 AHM / Rivarossi Mikado's ( Remember my cut off point for 
my vintage collection is 1977 at the latest. This has to be later then the 1966 
production engines, that had the square motors, as it has the round 
motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Just thought you might like to 
see one of the left overs.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9954
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbytown vs Globe/Athearnn F-7 Drive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
If you happen to have Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicons Volumes I & II you can 
see these Athearn drives, plus many other makes, in the front of one of the 
volumes (not sure if I or II as I don't have the books in my computer 
room).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:53 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hobbytown vs 
  Globe/Athearnn F-7 Drive
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I had gotten one with an identical drive from Dave F awhile back, I still 
  have it, someone had told me that the drive I had here was a 
  United drive, made by United Models specifically for the F7 
  from Globe/Athearn, what you showed in those pictures cleared a lot of 
  questions up for me, thanks, since this drive works very well, I plan on 
  making changes to the body shell, (Union Pathetic), and it will be a 
  D&RGW unit when I'm done with it, I'm glad your hear to educate us on some 
  of these vintage drives, now I do have a Hobbytown drive, something I 
  never thought I would find........ ...:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Click HERE 
  http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 
  to answer life's two most important questions! 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  From: jim heckard 
  <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: lennard@etex. net
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 6:11:54 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Hobbytown vs Globe/Athearnn F-7 Drive [4 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       The reason for the pictures is your 
  mention of a Hobbytown drive , with the large DC-90 motor, for use in Globe / 
  Athearn F-7's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9955
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Same page ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             As 
I reread your Email I'm not sure we are on the same page. This is one of those 
times I should attach this to all previous Emails about the topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         The 4 pictures I just sent 
are the 1st Athearn drive ( created by Athearn )  for his Globe ( used 
the brand name Globe first) / Athearn F-7's. Your last sentence is  "that 
now you have a Hobbytown drive".
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           Just to make 
it clear I was only referring to the Hobbytown drive, with large motor, that 
could be used in the Globe / Athearn F-7 but showing pictures of the Athearn 
drive that I felt was superior anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          I hope I have 
clarified this unless I just read your Email wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9956
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Same page ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Gary W (and Jim H, & All)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm with Jim, can not determine what you have.  There was an almost exact dupilcate of the original Athearn/Globe power chassis that Jim pictured, but with cast brass frame, imported from Japan around 1960 by an outfit called Olympic Express; (MR, Oct 1960). W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gary W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          As I reread your Email I'm not sure we are on the same page. This is one of those times I should attach this to all previous Emails about the topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      The 4 pictures I just sent are the 1st Athearn drive ( created by Athearn )  for his Globe ( used the brand name Globe first) / Athearn F-7's. Your last sentence is  "that now you have a Hobbytown drive".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        Just to make it clear I was only referring to the Hobbytown drive, with large motor, that could be used in the Globe / Athearn F-7 but showing pictures of the Athearn drive that I felt was superior anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       I hope I have clarified this unless I just read your Email wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                                Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9957
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Plasti
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    These RS-3 and RSD chassis' are still high quality, very smooth, very  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
quiet operators, and they are powerful.  The wheels are terrible, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the fat flanges too often pick on perfectly good switchwork.  I have  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
not yet looked into what difficulty there might be in changing wheels  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(and installing all-wheel pickup at the same time).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  I recently started melting the plastic bezel of one headlight by  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
operating these DC locomotives on the steady higher voltage of DCC  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
without interposing a resistor on the headlight bulb first. Although I  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
have extra plastic body shell parts, I am attempting to salvage the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
nicely painted current shell by inserting a new PSC headlight frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9958
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Pl
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Denny--remember the Hobbytown RS-4 that Jack Hoffman had in the display case 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
at West Bay--As I recall his model was used in the Hobbytown ads.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have a Hobbytown RSD5 that a friend guilt--SP Black Widow colors.  I used 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
to have  a lot of fun with it at the big shows--the smart-guy teenagers 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
would build a long consist using 4 or more Athearn units--80 or more 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
cars--then I'd bring out the Alco and walk off with the whole train.   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re:hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and other Plasti
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> These RS-3 and RSD chassis' are still high quality, very smooth, very
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> quiet operators, and they are powerful.  The wheels are terrible, and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the fat flanges too often pick on perfectly good switchwork.  I have
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> not yet looked into what difficulty there might be in changing wheels
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (and installing all-wheel pickup at the same time).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  I recently started melting the plastic bezel of one headlight by
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> operating these DC locomotives on the steady higher voltage of DCC
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> without interposing a resistor on the headlight bulb first. Although I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have extra plastic body shell parts, I am attempting to salvage the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> nicely painted current shell by inserting a new PSC headlight frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9959
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbytown vs Globe/Athearnn F-7 Drive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I guess that "hobbytown of Boston" may have started making their drive for the Globe shells with the giant Pittman motor before they knew about Athearn manufacturing theirs, and Chapper, by nature, put that big motor in all the cab units back then.  Of course, that does not explain why he came out with his second DC-70 powered version for the Athearn unit a few years later.  That early geared Athearn drive of yours certainly looks interesting and rugged, will start looking for one at the next show!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim, I am in awe of your collection that you have shared in your original photo album and are now sharing with us in detail each day and mean no disrespect when I add some more information to what you have presented, I just try to add something in the few areas I am familiar with, as in this case there was reference to power units for the plastic "hobbytown" road switcher. I don't think there are many collections that could rival yours for their depth and scope.  The RS-3's have been my favorite since they are what I saw and heard when growing up and wanted to model, long before I even knew their name, so now I have a "few" of the "hobbytown" varieties, as well as "a few" more modern brand "x" model RS-3's as well!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     W Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           Before I explain the pictures and the reason I sent them I want to respond to some of your statements. Since I have to send pictures as a new Email I want to add to your statements first..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     First    About the two static plastic RS-3's. Knowing there were two (all black plastic and orange/black) is a perfect example of trying to collect "one of everything" impossible. My collection spans to much already. I wish I could have both, even though these are not that expensive to get, but sometimes I have to choose. (See Don D we all have small pockets). This was one of those times. Just having the entire black plastic one as an example was enough. This happens a lot of times and why I only write about the one I have.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Second  You talk about some of the many drives Hobbytown provided. Sometimes I think Hobbytown had a drive for every HO Diesel made. It would take a very large book to even begin to write about the types they provided. I wouldn't even attempt to try. I leave that up to someone like you that has done the research or can find the information. Also to a person who can explain things very good in the shortest amount of words. ( That's something I have a hard time doing )
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    The reason for the pictures is your mention of a Hobbytown drive , with the large DC-90 motor, for use in Globe / Athearn F-7's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     The pictures I sent are of the first drive used in the Globe / Athearn F-7. (The second drive was similar). Not to get started on a huge discussion on Athearn F-7 drives I just wanted to show this  vs. the Hobbytown drive for it. I really think the first (and second) Globe/Athearn drives were the best Athearn ever made overall . Even with Hobbytown having the large motor I still feel that first Athearn drive was superior in so many ways. (Then after the almost identical 2nd drive he cheapened everything up). I can't understand why anyone would change from the Athearn to the Hobbytown. Just my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9960
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Plasti
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Denny A., I have thought of the wheels, too and looked at NWSL's catalog, but that's as far as I have ever gone. I believe that Howard Mosely offered some information on updating the wheelsets on the former company website, but that is shut down and I can not even find it archived via "wayback machine."  One part of me says leave them as is and continue to operate only on the old Code 100 track my dad put down 45 years ago, which is all I have at the moment on my vintage layout back in the old family home I am renewing! W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
e --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> These RS-3 and RSD chassis' are still high quality, very smooth, very  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> quiet operators, and they are powerful.  The wheels are terrible, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the fat flanges too often pick on perfectly good switchwork.  I have  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> not yet looked into what difficulty there might be in changing wheels  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (and installing all-wheel pickup at the same time).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I recently started melting the plastic bezel of one headlight by  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> operating these DC locomotives on the steady higher voltage of DCC  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> without interposing a resistor on the headlight bulb first. Although I  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have extra plastic body shell parts, I am attempting to salvage the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> nicely painted current shell by inserting a new PSC headlight frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9961
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Same page ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Oh! Okay, sorry for the confusion, thanks for clearing that up, yes, then it is an original geared Athearn drive, it is identical to the drive pix you had attached, again thanks, if it weren't for knowledgeable people like you, I'd be totally lost..............:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:46:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Same page ???

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             As I reread your Email I'm not sure we are on the same page. This is one of those times I should attach this to all previous Emails about the topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         The 4 pictures I just sent are the 1st Athearn drive ( created by Athearn )  for his Globe ( used the brand name Globe first) / Athearn F-7's. Your last sentence is  "that now you have a Hobbytown drive".
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           Just to make it clear I was only referring to the Hobbytown drive, with large motor, that could be used in the Globe / Athearn F-7 but showing pictures of the Athearn drive that I felt was superior anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          I hope I have clarified this unless I just read your Email wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9962
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Same page ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I think I have two Olympic express F7s, at least one Hobbytown F7, and one which I hope can be identified? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Plus here's the PA shell with the sunroof open!
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:01:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Same page ???

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Gary W (and Jim H, & All)

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm with Jim, can not determine what you have. There was an almost exact dupilcate of the original Athearn/Globe power chassis that Jim pictured, but with cast brass frame, imported from Japan around 1960 by an outfit called Olympic Express; (MR, Oct 1960). W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Gary W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As I reread your Email I'm not sure we are on the same page. This is one of those times I should attach this to all previous Emails about the topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The 4 pictures I just sent are the 1st Athearn drive ( created by Athearn ) for his Globe ( used the brand name Globe first) / Athearn F-7's. Your last sentence is "that now you have a Hobbytown drive".
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Just to make it clear I
 was only referring to the Hobbytown drive, with large motor, that could be used in the Globe / Athearn F-7 but showing pictures of the Athearn drive that I felt was superior anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I hope I have clarified this unless I just read your Email wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9963
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Same page ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I realize now that what I have is old Athearn, which is fine of course.............:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:01:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Same page ???

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Gary W (and Jim H, & All)

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm with Jim, can not determine what you have. There was an almost exact dupilcate of the original Athearn/Globe power chassis that Jim pictured, but with cast brass frame, imported from Japan around 1960 by an outfit called Olympic Express; (MR, Oct 1960). W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Gary W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As I reread your Email I'm not sure we are on the same page. This is one of those times I should attach this to all previous Emails about the topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The 4 pictures I just sent are the 1st Athearn drive ( created by Athearn ) for his Globe ( used the brand name Globe first) / Athearn F-7's. Your last sentence is "that now you have a Hobbytown drive".
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Just to make it clear I
 was only referring to the Hobbytown drive, with large motor, that could be used in the Globe / Athearn F-7 but showing pictures of the Athearn drive that I felt was superior anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I hope I have clarified this unless I just read your Email wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9964
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: New or more info WELCOME
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Ray W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for the 
compliment on my collection. I have tried hard to put something together worth 
having. But what good is having it if you can't share.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I don't mind 
anyone adding to what I write. I sure don't know it all and can be WRONG but not 
mad if corrected. That's what this is all about. Everyone sharing what we know 
and keeping the history of vintage HO alive but in good order. Being able to 
repair and keep those vintage items running is just icing on the 
cake.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           Anybody feel 
free to add what you can. Join in.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9965
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    No pictures yet, but a closeer look this evening did take place..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Constructed of a Cab Forward chassis and a big boy or Challenger shell with a challenger pilot & deck. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I will try tomorrow to post pictures. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Nelson <greenbrier614@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 2:33:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    LOL... a Babyface Forward?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean, can you take some pictures of this beast? I'm curious to see what it looks like.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Imagine that with the Baldwin Baby-Face cab......... .....
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Milwaukee Wi, USA


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9966
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Same page ??? [5 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:05:31 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Same page ??? [5 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I think I have two Olympic express F7s, at least one Hobbytown F7, and one which I hope can be identified? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Plus here's the PA shell with the sunroof open!
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:01:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Same page ???

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Gary W (and Jim H, & All)

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm with Jim, can not determine what you have. There was an almost exact dupilcate of the original Athearn/Globe power chassis that Jim pictured, but with cast brass frame, imported from Japan around 1960 by an outfit called Olympic Express; (MR, Oct 1960). W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Gary W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As I reread your Email I'm not sure we are on the same page. This is one of those times I should attach this to all previous Emails about the topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The 4 pictures I just sent are the 1st Athearn drive ( created by Athearn ) for his Globe ( used the brand name Globe first) / Athearn F-7's. Your last sentence is "that now you have a Hobbytown drive".
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Just to make it clear I
 was only referring to the Hobbytown drive, with large motor, that could be used in the Globe / Athearn F-7 but showing pictures of the Athearn drive that I felt was superior anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I hope I have clarified this unless I just read your Email wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >



                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9967
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Same page ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Okay, help my memory here.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
When I was "new" to all this, Globe didn't make power units.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Athearn, Lindsay, Hobbytown, and a couple of others did as retro-fits for the all-plastic Globe.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The chassis you are not sure of, other than a brass frame, sure looks early Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > I think I have two Olympic express F7s, at least one Hobbytown F7, and one which I hope can be identified? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Plus here's the PA shell with the sunroof open!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:01:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Same page ???
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Gary W (and Jim H, & All)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm with Jim, can not determine what you have. There was an almost exact dupilcate of the original Athearn/Globe power chassis that Jim pictured, but with cast brass frame, imported from Japan around 1960 by an outfit called Olympic Express; (MR, Oct 1960). W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Gary W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > As I reread your Email I'm not sure we are on the same page. This is one of those times I should attach this to all previous Emails about the topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The 4 pictures I just sent are the 1st Athearn drive ( created by Athearn ) for his Globe ( used the brand name Globe first) / Athearn F-7's. Your last sentence is "that now you have a Hobbytown drive".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Just to make it clear I was only referring to the Hobbytown drive, with large motor, that could be used in the Globe / Athearn F-7 but showing pictures of the Athearn drive that I felt was superior anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I hope I have clarified this unless I just read your Email wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9968
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Same page ??? [5 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Top two sure look Athearn drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Different frames and motors, but the gearboxes are the same.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Bottom is Hobbytown.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Right?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:05:31 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Same page ??? [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9969
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Same page ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Check out previous emails in this thread, more pictures of each unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Brass frame unit marked on bottom with plate as Olympic Express, Japan.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Bottom unit marked as Hobbytown.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Middle unit is Athearn, IMHO, but not marked.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: curmudgeon <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:41:57 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Same page ???

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Top two sure look Athearn drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Different frames and motors, but the gearboxes are the same.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Bottom is Hobbytown.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Right?
                                                                                                                                                                                     > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:05:31 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Same page ??? [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9970
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbytown vs Globe/Athearnn F-7 Drive [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, W Jay W, All,   I did make a new folder called Hobbytown of Boston, and upload photos of just some the many Hobbytown drives I've picked up, but I don't aspire to meeting Jim's challenge below alone, please join me in posting hobbytown photos in this folder.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: lennard@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 6:11:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown vs Globe/Athearnn F-7 Drive [4 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        W Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              Before I explain the pictures and the reason I sent them I want to respond to some of your statements. Since I have to send pictures as a new Email I want to add to your statements first..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        First    About the two static plastic RS-3's. Knowing there were two (all black plastic and orange/black) is a perfect example of trying to collect "one of everything" impossible. My collection spans to much already. I wish I could have both, even though these are not that expensive to get, but sometimes I have to choose. (See Don D we all have small pockets). This was one of those times. Just having the entire black plastic one as an example was enough. This happens a lot of times and why I only write about the one I have.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Second  You talk about some of the many drives Hobbytown provided. Sometimes I think Hobbytown had a drive for every HO Diesel made. It would take a very large book to even begin to write about the types they provided. I wouldn't even attempt to try. I leave that up to someone like you that has done the research or can find the information. Also to a person who can explain things very good in the shortest amount of words. ( That's something I have a hard time doing )
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       The reason for the pictures is your mention of a Hobbytown drive , with the large DC-90 motor, for use in Globe / Athearn F-7's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        The pictures I sent are of the first drive used in the Globe / Athearn F-7. (The second drive was similar). Not to get started on a huge discussion on Athearn F-7 drives I just wanted to show this  vs. the Hobbytown drive for it. I really think the first (and second) Globe/Athearn drives were the best Athearn ever made overall . Even with Hobbytown having the large motor I still feel that first Athearn drive was superior in so many ways. (Then after the almost identical 2nd drive he cheapened everything up). I can't understand why anyone would change from the Athearn to the Hobbytown. Just my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim H  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9971
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
I look forward to the pictures !!

                                                                                                                                                                                    I really should get  a couple of  used AHM cab-forwards from the swaps...........

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 22, 2009, at 10:10 PM, Sean Naylor wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                    No pictures yet, but a closeer look this evening did take place..
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Constructed of a Cab Forward chassis and a big boy or Challenger shell with a challenger pilot & deck.
                                                                                                                                                                                    I will try tomorrow to post pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Nelson <

                                                                                                                                                                                    LOL... a Babyface Forward?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean, can you take some pictures of this beast? I'm curious to see what it looks like.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Imagine that with the Baldwin Baby-Face cab......... .....
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9972
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: HObbyline
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                           This is the 
start of pictures, from my collection, for a HObbyline album. HObbyline is 
the plastic line of HO from John English. These pictures will be of steam 
engines (Powered and static versions).  I will send pictures of the 
plastic Diesels and drives followed by the plastic Passenger cars (Both Standard 
and Streamlined) later.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          1st 
picture           Factory 
powered plastic version of the John English 0-4-0 Yardbird
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          2nd 
picture          Static (unpowered) 
plastic kit of the John English Yardbird
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          3rd 
picture           Factory 
powered 0-4-0t plastic HObbyline engine
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          4th 
picture           Static 
(unpowered) plastic 0-4-0t kit
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          5th 
picture           
Static (unpowered) 2-8-4 Berkshire kit. Many 
people used this engine for the starting point of projects.They claim an 
excellent highly detailed model.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          6th 
picture           Sims Power 
Unit. Used to power the static plastic Berkshire
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      These plastic HObbyline 
items all made around 1958. Some of these 
plastic HObbyline and John English metal items became the basis for later Lionel 
HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9973
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Pl
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Glenn Joesten writes-

                                                                                                                                                                                    Denny--remember the Hobbytown RS-4 that Jack Hoffman had in the display case 
                                                                                                                                                                                    at West Bay--As I recall his model was used in the Hobbytown ads.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, indeed.


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a Hobbytown RSD5 that a friend guilt--SP Black Widow colors. I used 
                                                                                                                                                                                    to have a lot of fun with it at the big shows--the smart-guy teenagers 
                                                                                                                                                                                    would build a long consist using 4 or more Athearn units--80 or more 
                                                                                                                                                                                    cars--then I'd bring out the Alco and walk off with the whole train.



                                                                                                                                                                                     Glenn, you might not recall that the Hobbytown RS-3 and RSD-4 models that I am referring to also operated many times on the West Bay layout, MU-ed with Athearn GP, and a Globe F units upgraded with a Pittman rubber belt drives (now there's an esoteric vintage HO power assembly!).  The four together would pull up the roadbed if one of the units had dropped anchor. The inherent "give" in the Pittman O-ring drives allowed them to be excellent MU candidates. All four units were painted for the Milwaukee Road, and all still work.



                                                                                                                                                                                    We are talking here about c. the  years 1960-64.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Denny  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9974
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Same page ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Oh, I've been following the thread.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The small photos are definitely hard to decipher.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
But, if the center one is Japan, at least the gearboxes appear to be good copies of Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Not that it wasn't fairly common practice for them to copy good (or bad) designs.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Check out previous emails in this thread, more pictures of each unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Brass frame unit marked on bottom with plate as Olympic Express, Japan.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Bottom unit marked as Hobbytown.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Middle unit is Athearn, IMHO, but not marked.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: curmudgeon <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:41:57 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Same page ???
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Top two sure look Athearn drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Different frames and motors, but the gearboxes are the same.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Bottom is Hobbytown.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Right?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:05:31 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Same page ??? [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9975
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Same page ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    1) Sorry, top unit in picture (brass frame unit) is the one marked olympic express japan.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    2) Question at hand is if center unit is Globe or Athearn?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    3) The second email I sent has one picture of all three units together.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    4) If it is too small, take a look at the first email I sent right before it with the same subject.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    5) that email has multiple large pictures of each unit separately, with each picture named with the unit's maker.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: curmudgeon <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:15:02 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Same page ???

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Oh, I've been following the thread.
                                                                                                                                                                                    The small photos are definitely hard to decipher.
                                                                                                                                                                                    But, if the center one is Japan, at least the gearboxes appear to be good copies of Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Not that it wasn't fairly common practice for them to copy good (or bad) designs.

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Check out previous emails in this thread, more pictures of each unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Brass frame unit marked on bottom with plate as Olympic Express, Japan.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Bottom unit marked as Hobbytown.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Middle unit is Athearn, IMHO, but not marked.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: curmudgeon <idioticyahoo@ ...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:41:57 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Same page ???
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Top two sure look Athearn drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Different frames and motors, but the gearboxes are the same.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Bottom is Hobbytown.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Right?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:05:31 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Same page ??? [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9976
						From: Earl Poulsen
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The Great Northern had a wreck repaired boxcab locomotive with two F cabs faces. If I remember correctly, there were some electrics built with F faces for the GN too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Earl Poulsen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Vancouver, WA
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
LAT 45 degrees, 40 minutes, 6 seconds X LONG Minus 122 degrees, 39 minutes and 46 seconds
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9977
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: HObbyline plastic FA ALCO's
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                               Pictures of 
the plastic HObbyline ALCO's. These FA's were patterned after the John English 
metal ALCO. This design went to Lionel and was used for their HO engines with 
some minor body changes, especially the steps. HObbyline used a number of 
railroad names but I will let you go to the catalogs in HOseeker to check them 
out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 
1            HObbyline 
powered unit FA ALCO.( I've never seen or heard of a plastic "FB" unit by 
HObbyline)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 
2            Bottom 
of HObbyline FA powered 8 wheel drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 
3            I only know 
of sets containing a powered A unit and a dummy A unit being sold . 
Single engines may have been sold separately
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 
4             Bottom 
of HObbyline FA dummy
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 
5            Photo of the 
bulbous working coupler first used by HObbyline HO items. They later changed to 
the common NMRA coupler.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
This is the only drive (above picture) I have seen in the FA by HObbyline. The 
FM Switcher came in two different types which I will show next. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9978
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HObbyline plastic ALCo FAs
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/23/2009 1:46:17 PM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    the plastic HObbyline ALCO's. These FA's were patterned after the John English metal ALCO. This design went to Lionel and was used for their HO engines 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ---------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Damned if I can find it now, but I think I have one of the HObbyline dummy FAs somewhere in my collection.  I think that's the unit I painted with a spray can of automotive lacquer back when I didn't know any better (teenager).  I know I have one of the Lionel versions; all that's missing, I think, are the two rubber drive belts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops!                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9979
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HObbyline plastic FA ALCO's [5 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] HObbyline plastic FA ALCO's [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
[Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
           Pictures of the plastic HObbyline ALCO's. These FA's were 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
patterned after the John English metal ALCO. This design went to Lionel and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
was used for their HO engines with some minor body changes, especially the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
steps. HObbyline used a number of railroad names but I will let you go to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the catalogs in HOseeker to check them out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Picture 3            I only know of sets containing a powered A unit and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a dummy A unit being sold . Single engines may have been sold separately
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Attached is a J-E Alco A unit in a single box, I recall that magazine 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
reviews of the time refered to the body being nylon.  I had a chance to buy 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
one around 1953 but took one of the first Athearn F units instead, which 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
never did run well with all four axles connected.  It would run well with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
just fine with one truck powered.  Over 50 years latter I was able to get a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
J-E Alco on eBay.   Roger Aultman
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9980
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Forgot attachment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    In my haste I neglected to attach the pix kf the 
subgle J-E Alco Fa.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9981
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Same page ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From what I can see, whilst the frame and motor is different, the top of the gearboxes looks like Athearn, still.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Can you tell if the screws are in the same places?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Are they 2-56, or 3X.5mm?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The reason I ask, is you never know.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Earlier, on these very forums, a photo of a metal Varney F-3 set, with similar to Varney drives, but they weren't.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
International or Tenshodo.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
There is always the possibility someone swapped out trucks to allow compatible speeds with their Athearn units.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Here's the link:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/message/9830
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 1) Sorry, top unit in picture (brass frame unit) is the one marked olympic express japan.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 2) Question at hand is if center unit is Globe or Athearn?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 3) The second email I sent has one picture of all three units together.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 4) If it is too small, take a look at the first email I sent right before it with the same subject.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 5) that email has multiple large pictures of each unit separately, with each picture named with the unit's maker.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: curmudgeon <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:15:02 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Same page ???
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Oh, I've been following the thread.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The small photos are definitely hard to decipher.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> But, if the center one is Japan, at least the gearboxes appear to be good copies of Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Not that it wasn't fairly common practice for them to copy good (or bad) designs.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Check out previous emails in this thread, more pictures of each unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Brass frame unit marked on bottom with plate as Olympic Express, Japan.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Bottom unit marked as Hobbytown.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Middle unit is Athearn, IMHO, but not marked.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: curmudgeon <idioticyahoo@ ...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:41:57 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Same page ???
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Top two sure look Athearn drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Different frames and motors, but the gearboxes are the same.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Bottom is Hobbytown.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Right?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:05:31 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Same page ??? [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9982
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Forgot attachment [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        That's the first undecorated 
HObbyline FA ALCO I've seen. Thought all were factory painted. Live and 
learn
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:52 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment [1 
  Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    In my haste I neglected to attach the pix kf the 
  subgle J-E Alco Fa.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9983
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Forgot attachment [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       I hit send to quick. Had a question. 
That is a plastic HObbyline engine in a John English metal box. Did it come 
that way ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:52 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment [1 
  Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    In my haste I neglected to attach the pix kf the 
  subgle J-E Alco Fa.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9984
						From: Karl Peters
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Plasti
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Denny:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Been reworking my Hobbytown drives [Rs-3; RSD-4/5] with NWSL nickel silver wheels and new axles of 3/32 drill rod. {Drill rod is accurately ground to size.}  Currently, my RS-3's have  rail wipers, per the article, 'RS3 tune-up' printed in RMC, November 1982, but am considering going to wheel wipers. Haven't figured out how to add wheel wipers to the RSD 4/5's, but have the time now, since I am now laid off from work.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9985
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I seem to remember giving you a yellowstone some years ago.  (When we 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
cleaned out the basement in West Allis).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
>I look forward to the pictures !!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I really should get  a couple of  used AHM cab-forwards from the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> swaps...........
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9986
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HObbyline plastic ALCo FAs
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have one plastic A unit, couldn't get the drive to run, it's a dummy right 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
now.  Same problem with my H-10-44, when I replaced the drive belt I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
couldn't get the right tension, so it either slipped, when I went to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
next smaller size band, it was TOO tight and burned out the motor.  Now the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
shell rides on a proto-power west switcher chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: <Alpvalsys@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HObbyline plastic ALCo FAs
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In a message dated 4/23/2009 1:46:17 PM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the plastic HObbyline ALCO's. These FA's were patterned after the John
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> English metal ALCO. This design went to Lionel and was used for their HO 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> engines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ---------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Damned if I can find it now, but I think I have one of the HObbyline dummy
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> FAs somewhere in my collection.  I think that's the unit I painted with a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> spray can of automotive lacquer back when I didn't know any better 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (teenager).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I know I have one of the Lionel versions; all that's missing, I think, are
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the two rubber drive belts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> **************Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219799634x1201361008/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubl
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> eclick.net%2Fclk%3B214133440%3B36002254%3Bj)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9987
						From: Dst8596587@aol.com
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn 060 photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim and all interested,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have inserted an album in vintage ho under the name topstokes. There are photos of the 060 we discussed earlier. These engines have been in my possession since the mid to late 60s time frame. Don't claim to have anything unique but am curious as to the lack of geared driver in one. Your reference to the white strip during the pacific discussion jarred my memory of these two as I was always perplexed as to why and what the difference. Thanks for looking. On a side note the other differences between the two beside the bottom plate and drivers is the bell on the non geared model is a brass turning, on the geared it was plastic,  and the formed handrail around the non geared models boiler front. Production or add ons I do not know. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 6:18 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    







                                                                                                                                                                                    











                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                        That's the first undecorated 
HObbyline FA ALCO I've seen. Thought all were factory painted. Live and 
learn
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  


  


  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:52 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment [1 
  Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    In my haste I neglected to attach the pix kf the 
  subgle J-E Alco Fa.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

    
    




    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 



                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9988
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: HObbyline plastic FM H-10-44
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                          Pictures of the 
plastic HObbyline FM H-10-44 and the two drives. These engines, in many 
roadnames, were sold separate and in both freight and passenger 
sets.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         1st 
Picture              Plastic 
HObbyline FM  H-10-44 This has been repainted exactly as a factory 
painted model.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         2nd 
Picture             
8 wheel drive same set up as the the ALCO but for one small difference. The 
picture doesn't show to well but the gear to gear part of the power truck is to 
the back of the engine. It looks like so it will fit in the cab of the body. If 
you look back at pictures of the powered FA ALCO's the gear to gear set up is to 
the front of the back powered truck, between the two trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         3rd / 4th 
Pictures    4 wheel pulley with belt drive. Notice that unlike 
the 8 wheel drive having a HObbyline sticker on the frame between the trucks, 
this 4 wheel drive has HObbyline stamped on the frame. While I'm not totally 
sure I think this 4 wheel drive came first.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           Tomorrow 
both Standard and Streamlined HObbyline passenger car types.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9989
						From: Walter J. Bayer II
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In my haste I neglected to attach the pix kf the subgle J-E Alco Fa.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Is it really pink, or is that some internet artifact manifesting its cruel self?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9990
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn 060 photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don (topstokes)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
I am interested in the non geared 0-6-0 Athearn steam engine. I have to leave 
now so can't get to involved till later. My Athearn and it's plans are the 
middle gear driven type. The plans on HOseeker are the same as mine. All the 
ones I have seen are the same.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        With that said I have a question 
and some thoughts till I can check your non geared item out closer. How does 
that non geared item run or is it a dummy ????  I get the distinct feeling, 
but not totally sure, that it is reworked/modified. The number on the engine 
wrong from what I remember off the top of my head. The middle axle,center part, 
looks wrong like if the geared axle broke and was replaced. (These engines 
always had trouble with the plastic gear for turning the Driver ). The "missing" 
bottom plate. Another small thing you mention is that all I have seen 
had a plastic bell that was part of the body and not a turned brass piece. Also 
don't remember handrail across the front.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         A quick guess (but not 
100% sure) is it is not a factory produced item. I'll check more when I get home 
after 10 (my time Eastern PA )
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:21 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn 060 
  photos
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim and all interested,
                                                                                                                                                                                    I 
  have inserted an album in vintage ho under the name topstokes. There are 
  photos of the 060 we discussed earlier. These engines have been in my 
  possession since the mid to late 60s time frame. Don't claim to have anything 
  unique but am curious as to the lack of geared driver in one. Your reference 
  to the white strip during the pacific discussion jarred my memory of these two 
  as I was always perplexed as to why and what the difference. Thanks for 
  looking. On a side note the other differences between the two beside the 
  bottom plate and drivers is the bell on the non geared model is a brass 
  turning, on the geared it was plastic,  and the formed handrail around 
  the non geared models boiler front. Production or add ons I do not know. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: jim heckard 
  <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
  Thu, 23 Apr 2009 6:18 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        That's the first undecorated 
  HObbyline FA ALCO I've seen. Thought all were factory painted. Live and 
  learn
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
    Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
    Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: 
    [vintageHO] Forgot attachment [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    In my haste I neglected to attach the pix kf 
    the subgle J-E Alco Fa.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9991
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I recall getting a couple in that same red 
plastic--during the big close-out.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        That's the first undecorated 
  HObbyline FA ALCO I've seen. Thought all were factory painted. Live and 
  learn
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9992
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I think that is the older Bachmann Texas type they made from parts of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
their ATSF northern.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I should look at that, I think it has a bad driver, or something like  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
that. It should be brought back to life.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     On Apr 23, 2009, at 5:49 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I seem to remember giving you a yellowstone some years ago.  (When we
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> cleaned out the basement in West Allis).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "Mike Bauers"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I look forward to the pictures !!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I really should get  a couple of  used AHM cab-forwards from the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> swaps........... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9993
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Yeah, one of those too, it ran but threw a side rod.  There was a 2-8-8-4 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
too that I had gotten from Elmer, I thought you had that too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:43 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
>I think that is the older Bachmann Texas type they made from parts of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> their ATSF northern.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I should look at that, I think it has a bad driver, or something like
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> that. It should be brought back to life.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> On Apr 23, 2009, at 5:49 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I seem to remember giving you a yellowstone some years ago.  (When we
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> cleaned out the basement in West Allis).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> From: "Mike Bauers"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> I look forward to the pictures !!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> I really should get  a couple of  used AHM cab-forwards from the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> swaps...........
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9994
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Walter B, Roger A.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I just pulled out my two examples, a Western Pacific unpowered unit (missing just wheeelsets and coverplates, but complete with HObbyline-type couplers, horns and all steps) and a B&O complete shell with horns.  Looking inside the unpainted portion of the B&O shell, it has that same pink color, except for where the outer gray spray came inside the cab window openings. Both were found in a large lot bought several years ago and are display quantity. I might trade them for a complete "Erie" if I find a WP or B&O fan who wants to make the switch!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > In my haste I neglected to attach the pix kf the subgle J-E Alco Fa.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Is it really pink, or is that some internet artifact manifesting its cruel self?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9995
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn 060 photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don't those drivers originally have plastic insulators between the axle stubs?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I do believe the lack of gears and white plastic is Plastruct or some such replacement when the originals failed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >  Jim and all interested,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have inserted an album in vintage ho under the name topstokes. There are photos of the 060 we discussed earlier. These engines have been in my possession since the mid to late 60s time frame. Don't claim to have anything unique but am curious as to the lack of geared driver in one. Your reference to the white strip during the pacific discussion jarred my memory of these two as I was always perplexed as to why and what the difference. Thanks for looking. On a side note the other differences between the two beside the bottom plate and drivers is the bell on the non geared model is a brass turning, on the geared it was plastic,? and the formed handrail around the non geared models boiler front. Production or add ons I do not know. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 6:18 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ??? That's the first undecorated 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> HObbyline FA ALCO?I've seen. Thought all were factory painted. Live and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> learn
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ?????? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ??????????????????????????????????????? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ?????????????????????????????????????? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Roger Aultman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: VINTAGE H-0 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:52 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment [1 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In my haste I neglected to attach the pix kf the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   subgle J-E Alco Fa.?? Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9996
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Walter   The one I saw years ago seemed 
more red, perhaps it faded with age.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:02 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Forgot 
  attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > In my haste I 
  neglected to attach the pix kf the subgle J-E Alco Fa. 
  Roger

                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    Is it really pink, or is that some internet artifact 
  manifesting its cruel self?
                                                                                                                                                                                    Walter

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9997
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W   When looking at the shell under 
room light it seems more red, perhaps the camera misinterperted the exact 
shade.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:09 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Forgot 
  attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Walter B, Roger A.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I just pulled out my two examples, a Western 
  Pacific unpowered unit (missing just wheeelsets and coverplates, but complete 
  with HObbyline-type couplers, horns and all steps) and a B&O complete 
  shell with horns. Looking inside the unpainted portion of the B&O shell, 
  it has that same pink color, except for where the outer gray spray came inside 
  the cab window openings. Both were found in a large lot bought several years 
  ago and are display quantity. I might trade them for a complete "Erie" if I 
  find a WP or B&O fan who wants to make the switch!

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > In my haste I 
  neglected to attach the pix kf the subgle J-E Alco Fa. Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Is it really pink, or is that some internet artifact 
  manifesting its cruel self?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9998
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim   Yes the box label says "HOBBYLINE 
#2100K KIT ALCO A UNIT POWERED" the instructions do refer to the body as being 
polystyrene.  I think it was 1954 when I saw the first kit, several have 
come up on eBay with this box,   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:21 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot 
  attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       I hit send to quick. Had a question. 
  That is a plastic HObbyline engine in a John English metal box. Did it 
  come that way ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:52 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment 
    [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    In my haste I neglected to attach the pix kf 
    the subgle J-E Alco Fa.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 9999
						From: csx333
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Olympic Cascadian Kits Ever Available?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have the Central of Georgia kit from the early 1960's. Do any of these kits ever appear here for sale, or on eBay?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10000
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Roger A.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yes, pink not quite the correct word, definitely on the red side, the light source matters, too.  But definitely different than most model plastic colors I've seen!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim   Yes the box label says "HOBBYLINE #2100K KIT ALCO A UNIT POWERED" the instructions do refer to the body as being polystyrene.  I think it was 1954 when I saw the first kit, several have come up on eBay with this box,   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      I hit send to quick. Had a question. That is a plastic HObbyline engine in a John English metal box. Did it come that way ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     From: Roger Aultman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     To: VINTAGE H-0 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Subject: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     In my haste I neglected to attach the pix kf the subgle J-E Alco Fa.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10001
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Don D. and All,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I see that John English FA-1 boxed kit you tipped us to sold for about $25.00.  My experiences as far as condition of the castings has mirrored that reported here, some good, some bad, but think I've seen more deteriorated trucks.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I backed into collecting an A-B-A lash-up by first finding a good A unit shell, searched eBay, found an original box with all the running gear and a few shell crumbs, took a chance when no one else did and found the parts solid and motor good.  Found another A unit in a show junk-box, a curious 3/8" hole in one side, but good power truck castings, only one cover, though, no gears or wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Finally found a FB in an FA box, just the shell.  Best show find was a long dark red box with an J. English label on it. "Power Trucks"  I opened it slowly, expecting metal crumbs and flakes, but surprise, the two trucks and covers looked like they were cast the day before.  A lifelong friend found me another FA in Wisconsin, and the extra partial trucks went on them, so now only need a cover plate & one set of gears and wheel sets.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A bit like the old song, "One Piece At A Time."  My buddy recently found another restorable FA, so will keep looking.  Also have some period accessories marketed for the English units, including the Scalelight lighting kit and a Jerry Martin clutch for the newest acquisition!   Might be fun to build the latest with those installed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Lastly, interesting variation on the otherwise similar boxes, one has his Yardley, PA address, the other Morrisville, PA, think he moved a couple other places nearby, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> This auction was passed along to me offlist by another member,  I would have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> loved to keep it quiet and bid on it myself, but my budget is shot for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> next couple weeks. <G>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (my budget is always shot :-( )
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://cgi.ebay.com:80/John-A-English-METAL-Powered-Alco-FA-Diesel-KIT_W0QQitemZ140313604499QQihZ004QQcategoryZ484QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> or
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://tinyurl.com/cg7u8q
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ending in a few hours.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10002
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 4/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have primarily collected Athearn and some Globe with some AHM and Mantua so it seemed time to branch out and collect something new.  I have a couple of Athearn PA's but little other Alco so it seemed a good time to get into an FA.. also appealed to me that it is a metal model rather than plastic(I am fond of the Athearn metal line and RDC's). So yes, I paid a little under $25.00 for it, maybe a little high but not collecting that line had no idea what it might actually be worth. The ad indicated that most of the zamac was in good shape, I will soon see as it supposedly shipped out priority mail today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Thu, 4/23/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 10:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Don D. and All,  

                                                                                                                                                                                    I see that John English FA-1 boxed kit you tipped us to sold for about $25.00.  My experiences as far as condition of the castings has mirrored that reported here, some good, some bad, but think I've seen more deteriorated trucks.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    I backed into collecting an A-B-A lash-up by first finding a good A unit shell, searched eBay, found an original box with all the running gear and a few shell crumbs, took a chance when no one else did and found the parts solid and motor good.  Found another A unit in a show junk-box, a curious 3/8" hole in one side, but good power truck castings, only one cover, though, no gears or wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Finally found a FB in an FA box, just the shell.  Best show find was a long dark red box with an J. English label on it. "Power Trucks"  I opened it slowly, expecting metal crumbs and flakes, but surprise, the two trucks and covers looked
 like they were cast the day before.  A lifelong friend found me another FA in Wisconsin, and the extra partial trucks went on them, so now only need a cover plate & one set of gears and wheel sets.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    A bit like the old song, "One Piece At A Time."  My buddy recently found another restorable FA, so will keep looking.  Also have some period accessories marketed for the English units, including the Scalelight lighting kit and a Jerry Martin clutch for the newest acquisition!   Might be fun to build the latest with those installed.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Lastly, interesting variation on the otherwise similar boxes, one has his Yardley, PA address, the other Morrisville, PA, think he moved a couple other places nearby, too.

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.


                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10003
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Olympic Cascadian Kits Ever Available?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    csx333 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > I have the Central of Georgia kit from the early 1960's. Do any of these kits ever appear here for sale, or on eBay? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I have bought a #108 SP boxcar kit some time ago at eBay. They show up 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
now and then.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10004
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: HObbyline Plastic Passenger
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                These 
pictures will finish my HObbyline items. While I have numerous items with 
different road names these are the types of plastic products I know sold under 
the HObbyline name (John English).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           W Jay 
W      A special piece of information for you will be 
included in the streamlined passenger cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            The 
plastic standard heavyweight passenger cars are a Combine and a Coach. 
These were copies of the John English metal combine and coach. The design 
of these cars went on to Penn Line who expanded the number of cars, to 
Varney under Sol Kramer who cut back the number of types and on to Lifelike 
and others.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            The 
plastic streamlined cars were first made by HObbyline ( NO metal John English ). 
Only a Coach and Observation were made. These streamlined designs followed the 
same route as the heavyweights.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Special to W Jay W         You mentioned 
in another E mail about towns John English was located in. The first HObbyline 
streamlined passenger set contained  FA   A powered, A Dummy and 
four streamlined passenger cars ( 3 coaches, 1 Observation) lettered for the 
Pennsylvania. The unique part, and Jay you will like this, was that each car was 
named after towns John English was in.  The coaches were, Trenton, 
Princeton, Morrisville. The Observation was Yardley. ( you can see some of these 
names in the pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              Picture 1 & 
2           HObbyline Plastic 
Standard heavyweight Combine and Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              Picture 3 & 
4           HObbyline Plastic 
Streamlined Coach and Observation  (W Jay W   You can see names 
on the cars).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               Picture 
5                
HObbyline Passenger trucks with plastic sideframes / brass wheels and 
the big bulbous working couplers. (Penn Line went to their heavy cast metal type 
when they produced these cars)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Again I have more HObbyline pieces with other roadnames especially passenger 
cars. Anyone wanting to know all can check HObbyline catalogs in 
HOseeker.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10005
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       Adding this to the Email reply you 
sent. Thanks for the answers below. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                I feel 
based on the answers to my request, that we might be dealing with one of the 
first plastic items John English made / sold after stopping the John English 
metal line.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              Everything fits. 
The year 1954 would be roughly the transition time frame from John English metal 
to HObbyline plastic . The use of the John English boxes (to use up stock) and 
maybe the art work/boxes for HObbyline not ready. Using the stickers on the box 
saying plastic, HObbyline, etc. An undecorated plastic body.  Sound 
plausible, possibly ??    Do you or anyone else 
think likely   ???  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       ****  Now to really go "out 
on a limb" . NO facts only certain statements. John English and the owners of 
Penn Line knew each other and had a working relationship. Hence Penn Line taking 
over some John English / HObbyline designs. We have just seen the undecorated 
red/reddish plastic body for the HObbyline FA body. We also know Penn Line 
produced their Whitcomb with plastic bodies most black but a red body has been 
mentioned. I don't think we ever knew who produced these plastic bodied items 
for either company of if they produced them their selves. ****
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    COULD IT BE POSSIBLE THAT THE PLASTIC BODIES FOR 
HOBBYLINE / JOHN ENGLISH  AND PENN LINE WERE PRODUCED BY THE SAME 
ENTITY (whom ever that might be)   ????   Just a wild 
guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:53 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot 
  attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim   Yes the box label says "HOBBYLINE 
  #2100K KIT ALCO A UNIT POWERED" the instructions do refer to the body as being 
  polystyrene.  I think it was 1954 when I saw the first kit, several have 
  come up on eBay with this box,   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:21 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot 
    attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       I hit send to quick. Had a 
    question. That is a plastic HObbyline engine in a John English metal 
    box. Did it come that way ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:52 
      PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Forgot 
      attachment [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    In my haste I neglected to attach the pix kf 
      the subgle J-E Alco Fa.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10006
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn 060 photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Yes 
you are right. It was a black plastic that cracked over time and from the 
pressing in of the driver halves. I agree that this engine pictured 
had a problem at one time with those plastic insulators cracking. All, including 
the drive gearing, were replaced. I have to think a "dummy" was made out of 
it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              While a small 
thing the number is wrong on the engine labeled  "geared 0-6-0". 
Whether it had Pennsylvania or Southern Pacific on the tender the cab 
number was they same on both 4114.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                I 
suggest that Don (topstokes) go into the HOseeker sight and check out the 
Athearn 0-6-0 plans there. It shows a complete break down picture of all 
parts. Also if by chance you have access to the Greenberg Guide to Athearn 
trains there is a write-up about the 0-6-0
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                Everything 
I know about this engine was that there was only one type of production run. The 
one I have follows everything I know or have mentioned
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:55 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 060 
  photos
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don't those drivers originally have plastic insulators between the axle 
  stubs?
                                                                                                                                                                                    I do believe the lack of gears and white plastic is Plastruct or 
  some such replacement when the originals failed.

                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim and all 
  interested,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have inserted an album in vintage ho under the name 
  topstokes. There are photos of the 060 we discussed earlier. These engines 
  have been in my possession since the mid to late 60s time frame. Don't claim 
  to have anything unique but am curious as to the lack of geared driver in one. 
  Your reference to the white strip during the pacific discussion jarred my 
  memory of these two as I was always perplexed as to why and what the 
  difference. Thanks for looking. On a side note the other differences between 
  the two beside the bottom plate and drivers is the bell on the non geared 
  model is a brass turning, on the geared it was plastic,? and the formed 
  handrail around the non geared models boiler front. Production or add ons I do 
  not know. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Don 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: jim heckard 
  <jimheck@... >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Sent: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 6:18 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot 
  attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
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                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ??? That's the first undecorated 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  HObbyline FA ALCO?I've seen. Thought all were factory painted. Live and 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > learn
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  ???????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ??? 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ?????? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  ???????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Roger Aultman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: 
  VINTAGE H-0 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:52 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment 
  [1 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > In my haste I neglected 
  to attach the pix kf the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > subgle J-E Alco Fa.?? 
  Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10007
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HObbyline Plastic Passenger [5 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/24/2009 8:57:49 AM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The design of these cars went on to Penn Line...Only a Coach and Observation were made....(Penn Line went to their heavy cast metal type when they produced these cars)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    -----------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    My Penn Line set, with a GG-1 and all still in the original box, included 3 coaches and an observation.  They have the metal trucks with insulated wheelsets because the cars are lighted; there are plastic window strips with "passengers."  At one time I had a Penn Line B&O coach; forgot what I did with it, but I still have the trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    One thing I noticed after looking at Jim's photos is that the HObbyline cars appear to have body-mounted couplers instead of the Penn Line talgo mounts.  I know the talgo mounts were used to allow operation on 18-inch-radius curves (or even 15-inch), but they don't work well at all when trying to make a reverse move through a crossover.  :-(
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10008
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                       W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
 I am lucky to have a complete passenger set labeled for the ERIE. It has 
the powered A, the dummy B,  a combine and 3 coaches (standard 
heavyweights). No box. I don't know much about production run numbers but I 
think the ERIE heavyweight set a little harder to find.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              Sorry , no 
trade here. I have a friend in the Pittsburgh area (No not Sean N) that was / is 
an avid HObbyline collector. He keeps changing what companies he likes. If you 
want to contact him let me know off site. Also watch for "lexustruck" on eBay 
who sells a lot of HObbyline. He is related to George Horan, a big HObbyline 
collector, and the man who wrote the HObbyline / Lionel connection in the 
Greenberg Guide to Lionel HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:09 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Forgot 
  attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Walter B, Roger A.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I just pulled out my two examples, a Western 
  Pacific unpowered unit (missing just wheeelsets and coverplates, but complete 
  with HObbyline-type couplers, horns and all steps) and a B&O complete 
  shell with horns. Looking inside the unpainted portion of the B&O shell, 
  it has that same pink color, except for where the outer gray spray came inside 
  the cab window openings. Both were found in a large lot bought several years 
  ago and are display quantity. I might trade them for a complete "Erie" if I 
  find a WP or B&O fan who wants to make the switch!

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > In my haste I 
  neglected to attach the pix kf the subgle J-E Alco Fa. Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Is it really pink, or is that some internet artifact 
  manifesting its cruel self?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10009
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HObbyline Plastic Passenger
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                Just 
to clarify something first in the one sentence you cited.  The way I wrote 
that statement might be misleading. It was Hobbyline made only a streamlined 
coach and observation. Penn Line expanded the number of types. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          I know Penn 
Line sold a number of passenger sets with different passenger car types in 
them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          On the 
couplers. Yes the HObbyline couplers were body mounted. The Penn Line were 
(NMRA) Talgo style, on the trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:46 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HObbyline 
  Plastic Passenger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/24/2009 8:57:49 AM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    The design of these cars went on to Penn 
    Line...Only a Coach and Observation were 
    made....(Penn Line went to their heavy cast 
    metal type when they produced these cars)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    My Penn Line set, with a GG-1 and all still in the original box, included 
  3 coaches and an observation.  They have the metal trucks with insulated 
  wheelsets because the cars are lighted; there are plastic window strips with 
  "passengers. "  At one time I had a Penn Line B&O coach; forgot 
  what I did with it, but I still have the trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    One thing I noticed after looking at Jim's photos is that the HObbyline 
  cars appear to have body-mounted couplers instead of the Penn Line talgo 
  mounts.  I know the talgo mounts were used to allow operation on 
  18-inch-radius curves (or even 15-inch), but they don't work well at all when 
  trying to make a reverse move through a crossover.  :-(
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  The Average US Credit Score is 692. See 
  Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10010
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Olympic Cascadian Kits Ever Available?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold Eckl wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > csx333 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I have the Central of Georgia kit from the early 1960's. Do any of these kits ever appear here for sale, or on eBay? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have bought a #108 SP boxcar kit some time ago at eBay. They show up 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> now and then.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                        Nice kits. I built one of those up about 10 years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10011
						From: Dst8596587@aol.com
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn 060 photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have the Greenberg book, use it for metal boxcar reference, and have visited HO seeker many a time, although not specific for Athearn products. My comment was that I apparently had two different variations.  The non geared version has been painted and the decals for the numbers are evident. However the Southern Pacific engine boiler has not been painted and the numbers on the cab are not decals, although they could be rubber stamped. The fire box appears to have been painted silver. Although not a true USRA engine the number is correct for a Southern Pacific 0-6-0 of the S-12 class. The Southern Pacific Lines on the tender is not a decal and would be correct for a tender prior to 1947. I too have pondered the driver axles being modified, however I keep coming back to the bottom plate, entirely different, hard to expalin. Contact me at my email address with your address and I'll send you the non geared engine. You can take your time and make a detailed examination. I do not collect Athearn and it has no value for my purposes, so no return is neccesary. If it is just a run of the mill version, modified somewhat, you will have a few spare parts. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 9:34 am
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 060 photos
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    







                                                                                                                                                                                    











                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                Yes 
you are right. It was a black plastic that cracked over time and from the 
pressing in of the driver halves. I agree that this engine pictured 
had a problem at one time with those plastic insulators cracking. All, including 
the drive gearing, were replaced. I have to think a "dummy" was made out of 
it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                              While a small 
thing the number is wrong on the engine labeled  "geared 0-6-0". 
Whether it had Pennsylvania or Southern Pacific on the tender the cab 
number was they same on both 4114.
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                I 
suggest that Don (topstokes) go into the HOseeker sight and check out the 
Athearn 0-6-0 plans there. It shows a complete break down picture of all 
parts. Also if by chance you have access to the Greenberg Guide to Athearn 
trains there is a write-up about the 0-6-0
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                Everything 
I know about this engine was that there was only one type of production run. The 
one I have follows everything I know or have mentioned
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  


  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:55 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 060 
  photos
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don't those drivers originally have plastic insulators between the axle 
  stubs?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I do believe the lack of gears and white plastic is Plastruct or 
  some such replacement when the originals failed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim and all 
  interested,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have inserted an album in vintage ho under the name 
  topstokes. There are photos of the 060 we discussed earlier. These engines 
  have been in my possession since the mid to late 60s time frame. Don't claim 
  to have anything unique but am curious as to the lack of geared driver in one. 
  Your reference to the white strip during the pacific discussion jarred my 
  memory of these two as I was always perplexed as to why and what the 
  difference. Thanks for looking. On a side note the other differences between 
  the two beside the bottom plate and drivers is the bell on the non geared 
  model is a brass turning, on the geared it was plastic,? and the formed 
  handrail around the non geared models boiler front. Production or add ons I do 
  not know. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: jim heckard 
  <jimheck@... >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
  Sent: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 6:18 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot 
  attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ??? That's the first undecorated 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
  HObbyline FA ALCO?I've seen. Thought all were factory painted. Live and 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> learn
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> 
  ???????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ??? 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> ?????? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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  ???????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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  ???????????? ????????? ????????? ???????? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Roger Aultman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: 
  VINTAGE H-0 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:52 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment 
  [1 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> In my haste I neglected 
  to attach the pix kf the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> subgle J-E Alco Fa.?? 
  Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

    
    




    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 



                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10012
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: about those new little pics....
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    As a matter of information I would like to know a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                    
more about how the little pics work.  When I click on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
one of the little pics I get a much bigger Pic (thats good).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
What I'm wondering is - will the translation to the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
bigger pic always happen or will it go away after some
                                                                                                                                                                                    
period of time, if so, how long are we talking about?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
If they will go away I would want to start saving
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the larger pics I'm interested in.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10013
						From: Walter J. Bayer II
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Walter   The one I saw years ago seemed more red, perhaps it faded with age.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Red is a very unstable dye, isn't it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Walter B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10014
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    A very likely scenario Jim.  The box has 
printed ends somewhat faded, will tryh folr a pix later.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:20 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot 
  attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       Adding this to the Email reply you 
  sent. Thanks for the answers below. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                I 
  feel based on the answers to my request, that we might be dealing with one of 
  the first plastic items John English made / sold after stopping the John 
  English metal line.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              Everything fits. 
  The year 1954 would be roughly the transition time frame from John English 
  metal to HObbyline plastic . The use of the John English boxes (to use up 
  stock) and maybe the art work/boxes for HObbyline not ready. Using the 
  stickers on the box saying plastic, HObbyline, etc. An undecorated plastic 
  body.  Sound plausible, possibly ??    Do you or anyone 
  else think likely   ???  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       ****  Now to really go 
  "out on a limb" . NO facts only certain statements. John English and the 
  owners of Penn Line knew each other and had a working relationship. Hence Penn 
  Line taking over some John English / HObbyline designs. We have just seen the 
  undecorated red/reddish plastic body for the HObbyline FA body. We also know 
  Penn Line produced their Whitcomb with plastic bodies most black but a red 
  body has been mentioned. I don't think we ever knew who produced these plastic 
  bodied items for either company of if they produced them their selves. 
  ****
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    COULD IT BE POSSIBLE THAT THE PLASTIC BODIES FOR 
  HOBBYLINE / JOHN ENGLISH  AND PENN LINE WERE PRODUCED BY THE SAME 
  ENTITY (whom ever that might be)   ????   Just a wild 
  guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:53 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot 
    attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim   Yes the box label says 
    "HOBBYLINE #2100K KIT ALCO A UNIT POWERED" the instructions do refer to the 
    body as being polystyrene.  I think it was 1954 when I saw the first 
    kit, several have come up on eBay with this box,   
    Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:21 
      PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot 
      attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       I hit send to quick. Had a 
      question. That is a plastic HObbyline engine in a John English metal 
      box. Did it come that way ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:52 
        PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Forgot 
        attachment [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        

                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    In my haste I neglected to attach the pix 
        kf the subgle J-E Alco Fa.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10015
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: John English - Penn Line Connections
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I think both your theories are plausible, and believe that John English and "the boys" at Penn Line had a close working realtionship. Carstens mentions them all getting together at the periodic meetings of the Eastern Model Rairoad Equipment Manufacturers Association held in that Trenton, NJ/Yardley, PA area. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
My realization of that close working relationship came when looking at my new back issues of the magazines I bought a couple years ago and first seeing those little John English photo ads for the parts to what I always "knew" as the Penn Line H-9 Consolidation. It completely changed my undertstading of Penn Line's origins.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
But now I am going to bring forth another confirmation of your close working realtionship theory that I have not seen discussed. The other Penn Line PRR Locomotives, the E-6, K-4 and L-1 were advertised first as John English products, "Coming Soon!"  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A John English flier pictures the H-9 Consolidation parts, and tells of the additional models "Coming soon" in the box at lower left, large John English company name at the bottom.  Sorry I did not bid higher on it as I only have a webphoto of the flier, and will post for today in my Plainsman's Pick's album, last photo, in a few minutes.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Seeing this flier really rocked my understanding of Penn Line, as it seems despite the name, the only locomotives they designed from scratch were the Crusader, Giant PRR T-1 Duplex and the little Whitcomb!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I will be interested in your, and other's reaction to this flier!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Roger, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    Adding this to the Email reply you sent. Thanks for the answers below. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             I feel based on the answers to my request, that we might be dealing with one of the first plastic items John English made / sold after stopping the John English metal line.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           Everything fits. The year 1954 would be roughly the transition time frame from John English metal to HObbyline plastic . The use of the John English boxes (to use up stock) and maybe the art work/boxes for HObbyline not ready. Using the stickers on the box saying plastic, HObbyline, etc. An undecorated plastic body.  Sound plausible, possibly ??    Do you or anyone else think likely   ???  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    ****  Now to really go "out on a limb" . NO facts only certain statements. John English and the owners of Penn Line knew each other and had a working relationship. Hence Penn Line taking over some John English / HObbyline designs. We have just seen the undecorated red/reddish plastic body for the HObbyline FA body. We also know Penn Line produced their Whitcomb with plastic bodies most black but a red body has been mentioned. I don't think we ever knew who produced these plastic bodied items for either company of if they produced them their selves. ****
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> COULD IT BE POSSIBLE THAT THE PLASTIC BODIES FOR HOBBYLINE / JOHN ENGLISH  AND PENN LINE WERE PRODUCED BY THE SAME ENTITY (whom ever that might be)   ????   Just a wild guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: Roger Aultman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Jim   Yes the box label says "HOBBYLINE #2100K KIT ALCO A UNIT POWERED" the instructions do refer to the body as being polystyrene.  I think it was 1954 when I saw the first kit, several have come up on eBay with this box,   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        I hit send to quick. Had a question. That is a plastic HObbyline engine in a John English metal box. Did it come that way ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       From: Roger Aultman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       To: VINTAGE H-0 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Subject: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       In my haste I neglected to attach the pix kf the subgle J-E Alco Fa.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10016
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HObbyline Plastic Passenger
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks for posting the HObbyline FA units and the passenger cars in Erie colors!  I had not seen the cars in color before.  Funny that while HObbyline took great pains to get complex paint schemes right on their FA locomotives and passenger cars, that they then painted the HObbyline logo on the lower left of each locomotive's side,  more in the fasion of older, larger scale tinplate manufacturers!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And you are right, I liked the story of how John English named his streamlined cars for his locations. That is pretty neat! Now I am going to start looking more carefully when I see those HObbyline/Penn Line/Varney streamlined cars piled in cartons under the tables at the shows. (Ha! Don't really see piles of them anymore!)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W. (and thank you for the leads.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             These pictures will finish my HObbyline items. While I have numerous items with different road names these are the types of plastic products I know sold under the HObbyline name (John English).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        W Jay W      A special piece of information for you will be included in the streamlined passenger cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         The plastic standard heavyweight passenger cars are a Combine and a Coach. These were copies of the John English metal combine and coach. The design of these cars went on to Penn Line who expanded the number of cars, to Varney under Sol Kramer who cut back the number of types and on to Lifelike and others.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         The plastic streamlined cars were first made by HObbyline ( NO metal John English ). Only a Coach and Observation were made. These streamlined designs followed the same route as the heavyweights.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>              Special to W Jay W         You mentioned in another E mail about towns John English was located in. The first HObbyline streamlined passenger set contained  FA   A powered, A Dummy and four streamlined passenger cars ( 3 coaches, 1 Observation) lettered for the Pennsylvania. The unique part, and Jay you will like this, was that each car was named after towns John English was in.  The coaches were, Trenton, Princeton, Morrisville. The Observation was Yardley. ( you can see some of these names in the pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           Picture 1 & 2           HObbyline Plastic Standard heavyweight Combine and Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           Picture 3 & 4           HObbyline Plastic Streamlined Coach and Observation  (W Jay W   You can see names on the cars).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            Picture 5                HObbyline Passenger trucks with plastic sideframes / brass wheels and the big bulbous working couplers. (Penn Line went to their heavy cast metal type when they produced these cars)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                Again I have more HObbyline pieces with other roadnames especially passenger cars. Anyone wanting to know all can check HObbyline catalogs in HOseeker.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10017
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HObbyline Plastic Passenger
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Forgot to mention I also posted a scanned image of my Knapp cast aluminum coach (painted by previous owner) riding on a pair of plastic HObbyline trucks that the previous owner had mounted it on; (in "Plainsman's Pick's" album, next to last photo. (Sorry, attachments not "working" for me right now.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Because the trucks have the "HObbyline" name on them, some thought it was a "metal HObbyline coach, ie. John English" which I knew it was not, as I had one or two of those by then, but still "knew" it was something special, not to pass up!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             These pictures will finish my HObbyline items. While I have numerous items with different road names these are the types of plastic products I know sold under the HObbyline name (John English).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        W Jay W      A special piece of information for you will be included in the streamlined passenger cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         The plastic standard heavyweight passenger cars are a Combine and a Coach. These were copies of the John English metal combine and coach. The design of these cars went on to Penn Line who expanded the number of cars, to Varney under Sol Kramer who cut back the number of types and on to Lifelike and others.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         The plastic streamlined cars were first made by HObbyline ( NO metal John English ). Only a Coach and Observation were made. These streamlined designs followed the same route as the heavyweights.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>              Special to W Jay W         You mentioned in another E mail about towns John English was located in. The first HObbyline streamlined passenger set contained  FA   A powered, A Dummy and four streamlined passenger cars ( 3 coaches, 1 Observation) lettered for the Pennsylvania. The unique part, and Jay you will like this, was that each car was named after towns John English was in.  The coaches were, Trenton, Princeton, Morrisville. The Observation was Yardley. ( you can see some of these names in the pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           Picture 1 & 2           HObbyline Plastic Standard heavyweight Combine and Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           Picture 3 & 4           HObbyline Plastic Streamlined Coach and Observation  (W Jay W   You can see names on the cars).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            Picture 5                HObbyline Passenger trucks with plastic sideframes / brass wheels and the big bulbous working couplers. (Penn Line went to their heavy cast metal type when they produced these cars)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                Again I have more HObbyline pieces with other roadnames especially passenger cars. Anyone wanting to know all can check HObbyline catalogs in HOseeker.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10018
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Colors fading
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Walter   It appears red paints faded, 
though not as bad as blue.  My first new car was a 61 Hawk after a 
couple of years of no garage it was pretty dull.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 6:56 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Forgot 
  attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Walter The one I saw 
  years ago seemed more red, perhaps it faded with age. Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    Red is a very unstable dye, isn't it.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Walter 
  B.

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10019
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Attached is pix of J-R FA label.   
Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:20 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot 
  attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       Adding this to the Email reply you 
  sent. Thanks for the answers below. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                I 
  feel based on the answers to my request, that we might be dealing with one of 
  the first plastic items John English made / sold after stopping the John 
  English metal line.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              Everything fits. 
  The year 1954 would be roughly the transition time frame from John English 
  metal to HObbyline plastic . The use of the John English boxes (to use up 
  stock) and maybe the art work/boxes for HObbyline not ready. Using the 
  stickers on the box saying plastic, HObbyline, etc. An undecorated plastic 
  body.  Sound plausible, possibly ??    Do you or anyone 
  else think likely   ???  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       ****  Now to really go 
  "out on a limb" . NO facts only certain statements. John English and the 
  owners of Penn Line knew each other and had a working relationship. Hence Penn 
  Line taking over some John English / HObbyline designs. We have just seen the 
  undecorated red/reddish plastic body for the HObbyline FA body. We also know 
  Penn Line produced their Whitcomb with plastic bodies most black but a red 
  body has been mentioned. I don't think we ever knew who produced these plastic 
  bodied items for either company of if they produced them their selves. 
  ****
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    COULD IT BE POSSIBLE THAT THE PLASTIC BODIES FOR 
  HOBBYLINE / JOHN ENGLISH  AND PENN LINE WERE PRODUCED BY THE SAME 
  ENTITY (whom ever that might be)   ????   Just a wild 
  guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:53 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot 
    attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim   Yes the box label says 
    "HOBBYLINE #2100K KIT ALCO A UNIT POWERED" the instructions do refer to the 
    body as being polystyrene.  I think it was 1954 when I saw the first 
    kit, several have come up on eBay with this box,   
    Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:21 
      PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot 
      attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       I hit send to quick. Had a 
      question. That is a plastic HObbyline engine in a John English metal 
      box. Did it come that way ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:52 
        PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Forgot 
        attachment [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        

                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    In my haste I neglected to attach the pix 
        kf the subgle J-E Alco Fa.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10020
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913, Good luck with it, have not followed the values, but in using my $10 rule the price seemed OK (Ten dollars less, would have been a steal, ten dollars more, would seem like too much!) They are handsome, rugged units with an uncomplicated drive and likely you will want more!  W Jay W!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have primarily collected Athearn and some Globe with some AHM and Mantua so it seemed time to branch out and collect something new.  I have a couple of Athearn PA's but little other Alco so it seemed a good time to get into an FA.. also appealed to me that it is a metal model rather than plastic(I am fond of the Athearn metal line and RDC's). So yes, I paid a little under $25.00 for it, maybe a little high but not collecting that line had no idea what it might actually be worth. The ad indicated that most of the zamac was in good shape, I will soon see as it supposedly shipped out priority mail today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- On Thu, 4/23/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 10:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Don D. and All,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I see that John English FA-1 boxed kit you tipped us to sold for about $25.00.  My experiences as far as condition of the castings has mirrored that reported here, some good, some bad, but think I've seen more deteriorated trucks.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I backed into collecting an A-B-A lash-up by first finding a good A unit shell, searched eBay, found an original box with all the running gear and a few shell crumbs, took a chance when no one else did and found the parts solid and motor good.  Found another A unit in a show junk-box, a curious 3/8" hole in one side, but good power truck castings, only one cover, though, no gears or wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Finally found a FB in an FA box, just the shell.  Best show find was a long dark red box with an J. English label on it. "Power Trucks"  I opened it slowly, expecting metal crumbs and flakes, but surprise, the two trucks and covers looked like they were cast the day before.  A lifelong friend found me another FA in Wisconsin, and the extra partial trucks went on them, so now only need a cover plate & one set of gears and wheel sets.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> A bit like the old song, "One Piece At A Time."  My buddy recently found another restorable FA, so will keep looking.  Also have some period accessories marketed for the English units, including the Scalelight lighting kit and a Jerry Martin clutch for the newest acquisition!   Might be fun to build the latest with those installed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Lastly, interesting variation on the otherwise similar boxes, one has his Yardley, PA address, the other Morrisville, PA, think he moved a couple other places nearby, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10021
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars (was HObbyline Plastic Passenger)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/24/2009 3:13:43 PM W Jay W wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    my Knapp cast aluminum coach 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    -----------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    When I was looking at my Penn Line stuff earlier, I found that I have what looks like a cast aluminum boa-tail observation car.  The curved read end is a separage piece as is the very basic diaphragm end of the car.  It came with sprung trucks (probably after-market).  Any idea what it might be?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10022
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Colors fading
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/24/2009 3:18:50 PM EDT, Roger wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    My first new car was a 61 Hawk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Had nothing to do with the color; it was just a Studebaker.  ;-)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Actually, blue does fade consideralby.  I worked for the D&H and our boxcars were painted blue-on-yellow and the blue faded terribly; in fact, our blue-on-yellow cabooses were later re-done in yellow-on-red.  While the red did fade (we had a "pink" Jordan spreader), the blue was worse.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10023
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Colors fading
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Alpvalsys@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Actually, blue does fade consideralby.  I worked for the D&H and our 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> boxcars were painted blue-on-yellow and the blue faded terribly; in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> fact, our blue-on-yellow cabooses were later re-done in yellow-on-red.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> While the red did fade (we had a "pink" Jordan spreader), the blue was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> worse.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                        Maybe it depends on the particular pigments used. I have seen many 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
photographs and posters that have been exposed to sunlight from windows 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
or from being directly outdoors, and often the reds have faded away 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
leaving a picture that is just various hues of blue.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Never miss a good chance to shut up
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10024
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the encouraging words, I look forward to receiving it soon.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Fri, 4/24/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 12:51 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913, Good luck with it, have not followed the values, but in using my $10 rule the price seemed OK (Ten dollars less, would have been a steal, ten dollars more, would seem like too much!) They are handsome, rugged units with an uncomplicated drive and likely you will want more!  W Jay W!


                                                                                                                                                                                    - In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have primarily collected Athearn and some Globe with some AHM and Mantua so it seemed time to branch out and collect something new.  I have a couple of Athearn PA's but little other Alco so it seemed a good time to get into an FA.. also appealed to me that it is a metal model rather than plastic(I am fond of the Athearn metal line and RDC's). So yes, I paid a little under $25.00 for it, maybe a little high but
 not collecting that line had no idea what it might actually be worth. The ad indicated that most of the zamac was in good shape, I will soon see as it supposedly shipped out priority mail today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- On Thu, 4/23/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 10:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Don D. and All,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I see that John English FA-1 boxed kit you tipped us to sold for about $25.00.  My experiences as far as condition of the castings has mirrored that reported here, some good, some bad, but think I've seen more deteriorated trucks.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I backed into collecting an A-B-A lash-up by first finding a good A unit shell, searched eBay, found an original box with all the running gear and a few shell crumbs, took a chance when no one else did and found the parts solid and motor good.  Found another A unit in a show junk-box, a curious 3/8" hole in one side, but good power truck castings, only one cover, though, no gears or wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Finally found a FB in an FA box, just the shell.  Best show find was a long dark red box with an J. English label on it. "Power Trucks"  I opened it slowly, expecting metal crumbs and flakes, but surprise, the two trucks and covers looked like they were cast the day before.  A lifelong friend found me another FA in Wisconsin, and the extra partial trucks went on them, so now only need a cover plate & one set of gears and wheel sets.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > A bit like the old song, "One Piece At A Time." 
 My buddy recently found another restorable FA, so will keep looking.  Also have some period accessories marketed for the English units, including the Scalelight lighting kit and a Jerry Martin clutch for the newest acquisition!   Might be fun to build the latest with those installed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Lastly, interesting variation on the otherwise similar boxes, one has his Yardley, PA address, the other Morrisville, PA, think he moved a couple other places nearby, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >




                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10025
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: John English - Penn Line Connections
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                        My first thoughts are anything 
possible. I think it would be important here to remember pictures that Jim 
Waterman has shown of Penn Line prototypes that his father Vince of Trackside 
Specialties got when the auction  of Penn Line took place. Maybe he 
can add facst to this discussion about the engine types you 
mention.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        I have never seen the 
flier that mentions the John English "Coming Soon " engines that became 
part of Penn Line line. VERY INTERESTING.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 10:14 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: John English - 
  Penn Line Connections
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                    I think both your theories are plausible, and believe that 
  John English and "the boys" at Penn Line had a close working realtionship. 
  Carstens mentions them all getting together at the periodic meetings of the 
  Eastern Model Rairoad Equipment Manufacturers Association held in that 
  Trenton, NJ/Yardley, PA area. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    My realization of that close working 
  relationship came when looking at my new back issues of the magazines I bought 
  a couple years ago and first seeing those little John English photo ads for 
  the parts to what I always "knew" as the Penn Line H-9 Consolidation. It 
  completely changed my undertstading of Penn Line's origins.

                                                                                                                                                                                    But now I 
  am going to bring forth another confirmation of your close working 
  realtionship theory that I have not seen discussed. The other Penn Line PRR 
  Locomotives, the E-6, K-4 and L-1 were advertised first as John English 
  products, "Coming Soon!" 

                                                                                                                                                                                    A John English flier pictures the H-9 
  Consolidation parts, and tells of the additional models "Coming soon" in the 
  box at lower left, large John English company name at the bottom. Sorry I did 
  not bid higher on it as I only have a webphoto of the flier, and will post for 
  today in my Plainsman's Pick's album, last photo, in a few minutes. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Seeing this flier really rocked my understanding of Penn Line, as it 
  seems despite the name, the only locomotives they designed from scratch were 
  the Crusader, Giant PRR T-1 Duplex and the little Whitcomb!

                                                                                                                                                                                    I will be 
  interested in your, and other's reaction to this flier!

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay 
  W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Roger, 
  All
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Adding this to the Email reply you sent. Thanks for the 
  answers below. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I feel based on the answers to my request, 
  that we might be dealing with one of the first plastic items John English made 
  / sold after stopping the John English metal line.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Everything 
  fits. The year 1954 would be roughly the transition time frame from John 
  English metal to HObbyline plastic . The use of the John English boxes (to use 
  up stock) and maybe the art work/boxes for HObbyline not ready. Using the 
  stickers on the box saying plastic, HObbyline, etc. An undecorated plastic 
  body. Sound plausible, possibly ?? Do you or anyone else think likely ??? 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > **** Now to really go "out on a limb" . NO facts only 
  certain statements. John English and the owners of Penn Line knew each other 
  and had a working relationship. Hence Penn Line taking over some John English 
  / HObbyline designs. We have just seen the undecorated red/reddish plastic 
  body for the HObbyline FA body. We also know Penn Line produced their Whitcomb 
  with plastic bodies most black but a red body has been mentioned. I don't 
  think we ever knew who produced these plastic bodied items for either company 
  of if they produced them their selves. ****
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > COULD IT BE 
  POSSIBLE THAT THE PLASTIC BODIES FOR HOBBYLINE / JOHN ENGLISH AND PENN LINE 
  WERE PRODUCED BY THE SAME ENTITY (whom ever that might be) ???? Just a wild 
  guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: Roger Aultman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: 
  [vintageHO] Forgot attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim Yes the box label says "HOBBYLINE #2100K KIT ALCO A UNIT 
  POWERED" the instructions do refer to the body as being polystyrene. I think 
  it was 1954 when I saw the first kit, several have come up on eBay with this 
  box, Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: 
  [vintageHO] Forgot attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I hit send to quick. Had a question. That is a plastic 
  HObbyline engine in a John English metal box. Did it come that way ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: Roger Aultman 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: VINTAGE H-0 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:52 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > In my haste I neglected to attach the pix kf the 
  subgle J-E Alco Fa. Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10026
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: about those new little pics....
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    oljoeoh wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > As a matter of information I would like to know a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> more about how the little pics work.  When I click on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> one of the little pics I get a much bigger Pic (thats good).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> What I'm wondering is - will the translation to the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> bigger pic always happen or will it go away after some
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> period of time, if so, how long are we talking about?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> If they will go away I would want to start saving
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the larger pics I'm interested in.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I understand those pic are added to our files by yahoo ... so they also 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
may be - accidentally or intentionally - be deleted some day. Would 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
recommend to download everything you want to keep for reference. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10027
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars (was HObbyline Plastic Passenger)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Would be interested 
in seeing the bob tail observation you talk about. I assume this is a sreamlined 
car ? A picture would be great if possible. It's not Knapp.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 4:18 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Cast aluminum 
  cars (was HObbyline Plastic Passenger)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/24/2009 3:13:43 PM W Jay W wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    my 
    Knapp cast aluminum coach 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    When I was looking at my Penn Line stuff earlier, I found that I have 
  what looks like a cast aluminum boa-tail observation car.  The curved 
  read end is a separage piece as is the very basic diaphragm end of the 
  car.  It came with sprung trucks (probably after-market) .  Any 
  idea what it might be?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  The Average US Credit Score is 692. See 
  Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10028
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: George Stock Album
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Good idea to always check for permission, most will grant it, or with credit given.  I for privacy reasons did not post the family name of the man who ordered the Niagara from George Stock, either, unless I receive permission from the heir. I had assisted in identifying other vintage models in that estate, including one obscure 40 year old British model locomotive that was only identified with the help of some accomdating modelers from across the pond!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Contacted Dan Glasure to get permission to post the George Stock 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
pictures. He gave me the ok and asked me to give credit. I have posted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the pictures to the album you have created.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
my files say they were auctioned in Fall 2006 or 2007..... to my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
amazement they all did not sell for an initial bid of $100  ( would have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
considered to bid at this price!) but generated some bids a week later.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10029
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Earl Poulsen wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > The Great Northern had a wreck repaired boxcab locomotive with two F cabs faces. If I remember correctly, there were some electrics built with F faces for the GN too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Y1a #5011 - she went into the ditch at Foss River Bridge in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
fourties, and was rebuilt with new FT cabs. She was the only one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
converted this way. Strangely, when the Pennsy bought all the Ys after 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the GN electrification was shut down, they used only the unmodified 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
boxcabs and cannibalized #5011 - the two FT cabs ended on a wreck 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
damaged PRR F and an E unit, repectively.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10030
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: about those new little pics....
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:24 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] about those new little pics....
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> As a matter of information I would like to know a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> more about how the little pics work.  When I click on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> one of the little pics I get a much bigger Pic (thats good).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> What I'm wondering is - will the translation to the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> bigger pic always happen or will it go away after some
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> period of time, if so, how long are we talking about?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> If they will go away I would want to start saving
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the larger pics I'm interested in.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The thumbnails are what yahoo now sends instead of the attachments. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Clicking on the thumbnail takes you to a folder on the group home page where 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the actual attachments are archived.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
You can also go to the group page, on left under "messages' you will see 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"attachments".  Clicking on that will bring a page of all the folders, just 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
like the photo albums.  You can then go to the folder you want and view the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
pictures there, again just like the photo albums.  The only downside is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
there is a separate "album" for each message, so it may take a fair bit of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
hunting to find the one you want.  Since this started a couple weeks ago 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
we're already at 65 folders.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yahoo tells us that these will be saved for the foreseeable future.  The 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
space they take up is charged to our photo allotment, but that's 100gb, of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
which we've not even used enough to register on the meter yet )with 65 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
attachment folders and 137 photo albums, we've use "O%" of our allotted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
space).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Of course, don't forget that this IS a FREE service Yahoo provides, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
there's nothing stopping them from shutting down the whole groups system any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
time they feel like it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10031
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The other electrics with "diesel cabs" were the W-1's-- B-D+D-B's--sort of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
like the Milw's Little Joes" but with motors on the pilot trucks as well, if 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I recall correctly.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Earl Poulsen wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> The Great Northern had a wreck repaired boxcab locomotive with two F cabs 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> faces. If I remember correctly, there were some electrics built with F 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> faces for the GN too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10032
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Colors fading
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/24/2009 4:55:13 PM EDT, Rick Jones wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    I have seen many (signs) that have been exposed to sunlight from being directly outdoors, and often the reds have faded away 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    You don't mean all those "Do not turn" signs where the circle and slash have disappeared and all you have is the arrow remaining?  :-(
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10033
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars (was HObbyline Plastic Passenger)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/24/2009 5:26:33 PM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Would be interested in seeing the bob tail observation you talk about. I assume this is a sreamlined car ? A picture would be great if possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, it's a streamlined, fluted-side car.  Give me a day or two to dig it back out again and get my digital camera out (it may not do close-ups very well).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10034
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    All, More other "diesel-cab" heavy electrics, too: the Virginian EL 2B's by GE, giant semi-permanently coupled units (B-B+B-B)+(B-B+B-B), largest in the world according to some, 6800hp+6800hp; several classes on the New Haven, the newest being the GE EP-5 "Jets", C-C units with double Alco FA like cabs that operated into the Penn Central years and the PRR's early 1950 experimentals, the GE E2B's B-B) and the Baldwin-Westinghouse E3B's (B-B-B) and E2C's (C-C). No vintage HO models of any of any of those except in brass, plus the NH EP5 currently in resin and Fraschetti in Brazil makes a Little Joe/earlier NH type, RTR, too. W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The other electrics with "diesel cabs" were the W-1's-- B-D+D-B's--sort of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> like the Milw's Little Joes" but with motors on the pilot trucks as well, if 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I recall correctly.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Earl Poulsen wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> The Great Northern had a wreck repaired boxcab locomotive with two F cabs 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> faces. If I remember correctly, there were some electrics built with F 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> faces for the GN too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10035
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: "Diesel Cab" Electrics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    All, Perhaps I should not have left the vintage Schrader model New Haven EP4 off the list of electrics with diesel-like cabs, so am mentioning it now!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> All, More other "diesel-cab" heavy electrics, too: the Virginian EL 2B's by GE, giant semi-permanently coupled units (B-B+B-B)+(B-B+B-B), largest in the world according to some, 6800hp+6800hp; several classes on the New Haven, the newest being the GE EP-5 "Jets", C-C units with double Alco FA like cabs that operated into the Penn Central years and the PRR's early 1950 experimentals, the GE E2B's B-B) and the Baldwin-Westinghouse E3B's (B-B-B) and E2C's (C-C). No vintage HO models of any of any of those except in brass, plus the NH EP5 currently in resin and Fraschetti in Brazil makes a Little Joe/earlier NH type, RTR, too. W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The other electrics with "diesel cabs" were the W-1's-- B-D+D-B's--sort of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > like the Milw's Little Joes" but with motors on the pilot trucks as well, if 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I recall correctly.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Earl Poulsen wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> The Great Northern had a wreck repaired boxcab locomotive with two F cabs 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> faces. If I remember correctly, there were some electrics built with F 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> faces for the GN too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10036
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: George Stock Album
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Gerold, George Stock's traction models look great.  Thanks for following though.  Dan Glasure is one of those in the business who also understands the value of history of the models, too.  Hopefully will get my new camera this coming week, and have to add a photo of my only George Stock item, a kit for the little PRR Scale Test Car that was popular in the early 1950's.  Thanks again.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Good idea to always check for permission, most will grant it, or with credit given.  I for privacy reasons did not post the family name of the man who ordered the Niagara from George Stock, either, unless I receive permission from the heir. I had assisted in identifying other vintage models in that estate, including one obscure 40 year old British model locomotive that was only identified with the help of some accomdating modelers from across the pond!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Contacted Dan Glasure to get permission to post the George Stock 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> pictures. He gave me the ok and asked me to give credit. I have posted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the pictures to the album you have created.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> my files say they were auctioned in Fall 2006 or 2007..... to my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> amazement they all did not sell for an initial bid of $100  ( would have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> considered to bid at this price!) but generated some bids a week later.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10037
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Perhaps somebody posted a link to a photo already and I missed it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
But here is a link to a page with a photo of that EMD cabbed Great Northern 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
electric:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/electric1.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
It is the picture "GN Y1a #5011" about two thirds down the page at the left. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Other "cab unit" style engines also pictured.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Gerold Eckl
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 3:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 4-8-8-2 Rivarossi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Earl Poulsen wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The Great Northern had a wreck repaired boxcab locomotive with two F cabs 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> faces. If I remember correctly, there were some electrics built with F 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> faces for the GN too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Y1a #5011 - she went into the ditch at Foss River Bridge in the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
fourties, and was rebuilt with new FT cabs. She was the only one
                                                                                                                                                                                    
converted this way. Strangely, when the Pennsy bought all the Ys after
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the GN electrification was shut down, they used only the unmodified
                                                                                                                                                                                    
boxcabs and cannibalized #5011 - the two FT cabs ended on a wreck
                                                                                                                                                                                    
damaged PRR F and an E unit, repectively.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10038
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    You're lucky payday is a week away, otherwise I probably would have bid on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
it.  :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Wobbly913" <wobbly913@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 1:05 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have primarily collected Athearn and some Globe with some AHM and Mantua 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
so it seemed time to branch out and collect something new. I have a couple 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
of Athearn PA's but little other Alco so it seemed a good time to get into 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
an FA.. also appealed to me that it is a metal model rather than plastic(I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
am fond of the Athearn metal line and RDC's). So yes, I paid a little under 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
$25.00 for it, maybe a little high but not collecting that line had no idea 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
what it might actually be worth. The ad indicated that most of the zamac was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
in good shape, I will soon see as it supposedly shipped out priority mail 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- On Thu, 4/23/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10039
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a HObbyline ACL boxcar that under fluorescent light is a pretty fair 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
boxcar red, but under incandescent light is almost fire engine red.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:35 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Forgot attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W   When looking at the shell under room light it seems more red, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
perhaps the camera misinterperted the exact shade.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  From: the_plainsman
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Forgot attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Walter B, Roger A.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  I just pulled out my two examples, a Western Pacific unpowered unit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(missing just wheeelsets and coverplates, but complete with HObbyline-type 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
couplers, horns and all steps) and a B&O complete shell with horns. Looking 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
inside the unpainted portion of the B&O shell, it has that same pink color, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
except for where the outer gray spray came inside the cab window openings. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Both were found in a large lot bought several years ago and are display 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
quantity. I might trade them for a complete "Erie" if I find a WP or B&O fan 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
who wants to make the switch!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  > > In my haste I neglected to attach the pix kf the subgle J-E Alco Fa. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  > Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  > Is it really pink, or is that some internet artifact manifesting its 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
cruel self?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  > Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10040
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Interesting.  I've bought a fair amount of Varney from "lexustruck".
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:50 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Forgot attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
   W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              I am lucky to have a complete passenger set labeled for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
ERIE. It has the powered A, the dummy B,  a combine and 3 coaches (standard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
heavyweights). No box. I don't know much about production run numbers but I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
think the ERIE heavyweight set a little harder to find.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          Sorry , no trade here. I have a friend in the Pittsburgh area (No 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
not Sean N) that was / is an avid HObbyline collector. He keeps changing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
what companies he likes. If you want to contact him let me know off site. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Also watch for "lexustruck" on eBay who sells a lot of HObbyline. He is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
related to George Horan, a big HObbyline collector, and the man who wrote 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the HObbyline / Lionel connection in the Greenberg Guide to Lionel HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  From: the_plainsman
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Forgot attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Walter B, Roger A.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  I just pulled out my two examples, a Western Pacific unpowered unit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(missing just wheeelsets and coverplates, but complete with HObbyline-type 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
couplers, horns and all steps) and a B&O complete shell with horns. Looking 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
inside the unpainted portion of the B&O shell, it has that same pink color, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
except for where the outer gray spray came inside the cab window openings. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Both were found in a large lot bought several years ago and are display 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
quantity. I might trade them for a complete "Erie" if I find a WP or B&O fan 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
who wants to make the switch!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  > > In my haste I neglected to attach the pix kf the subgle J-E Alco Fa. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  > Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  > Is it really pink, or is that some internet artifact manifesting its 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
cruel self?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  > Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10041
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 4/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Forgot attachment
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    The lighting can make big difference in the 
perception of color.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:40 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Forgot 
  attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a HObbyline ACL boxcar that under fluorescent light is a pretty fair 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    boxcar red, but under incandescent light is almost fire engine 
  red.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "Roger Aultman" <raul@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
  Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:35 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Forgot 
  attachment

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W When looking at the shell under room light it seems 
  more red, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    perhaps the camera misinterperted the exact shade. 
  Roger

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: the_plainsman
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
  Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Forgot 
  attachment

                                                                                                                                                                                    Walter B, Roger A.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I just pulled out my two examples, 
  a Western Pacific unpowered unit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    (missing just wheeelsets and coverplates, 
  but complete with HObbyline-type 
                                                                                                                                                                                    couplers, horns and all steps) and a 
  B&O complete shell with horns. Looking 
                                                                                                                                                                                    inside the unpainted portion of 
  the B&O shell, it has that same pink color, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    except for where the outer 
  gray spray came inside the cab window openings. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Both were found in a large 
  lot bought several years ago and are display 
                                                                                                                                                                                    quantity. I might trade them 
  for a complete "Erie" if I find a WP or B&O fan 
                                                                                                                                                                                    who wants to make the 
  switch!

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "Roger Aultman" <raul@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > In my haste I 
  neglected to attach the pix kf the subgle J-E Alco Fa. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Is it really pink, or is that 
  some internet artifact manifesting its 
                                                                                                                                                                                    cruel self?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10042
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: John English - Penn Line Connections
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I was not able to make enough time to go through more than the 1948 Model Railroader issues last evening, but did find somthing more of intertest.  In his approximately quarter page January, 1947 ad, John English was already selling his PRR high side tender! It was pictured below the H9 Consolidation "castings kit" and which claimed "over 1,000 (H-9 kits) sold since last May" (1947).  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Here is what it says about the tender: "NEW! HO Tender. Suitable for Pacific, Atlantic, Consolidation, Mikado or Ten Wheeler. PRR prototype, but similar to tenders used on most roads. Die-cast zinc alloy body and frame. Lots of authentic detail! Rivets all around! Quick easy assembly. See you dealer or write English. Tender kit complete, less trucks, $5.95." 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The photograph is a bit dark, the model being painted loco black and decal lettered. It seems to be the high side PRR tender as later manufactured by Penn Line and definitely not the later John English tender.  The only detail that I can see is different is that there is a fillet where the high coal collar side slope meets the lower portion of tender side, vs. the sharp angle of the later Penn Line ones.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
This is interesting as I believe Bowser had to retire only the high-side tender model a few years ago due to "die problems" - possibly suporting the fact that those high-side tender dies were the oldest and had been modeified at least once.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
While not conclusive evidence, what these ads establish though, is that flier I posted the photo of must date from 1947, as the tender was still advertised as "coming soon" and by January 1948, it was available. So it seems documented that John English was first planning a whole line of PRR prototype steam locomotives and was selling parts for the H-9 and tender.  Anyway, will check 1947 and 1949 issues soon. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     My first thoughts are anything possible. I think it would be important here to remember pictures that Jim Waterman has shown of Penn Line prototypes that his father Vince of Trackside Specialties got when the auction  of Penn Line took place. Maybe he can add facst to this discussion about the engine types you mention.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     I have never seen the flier that mentions the John English "Coming Soon " engines that became part of Penn Line line. VERY INTERESTING.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 10:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: John English - Penn Line Connections
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I think both your theories are plausible, and believe that John English and "the boys" at Penn Line had a close working realtionship. Carstens mentions them all getting together at the periodic meetings of the Eastern Model Rairoad Equipment Manufacturers Association held in that Trenton, NJ/Yardley, PA area. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   My realization of that close working relationship came when looking at my new back issues of the magazines I bought a couple years ago and first seeing those little John English photo ads for the parts to what I always "knew" as the Penn Line H-9 Consolidation. It completely changed my undertstading of Penn Line's origins.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   But now I am going to bring forth another confirmation of your close working realtionship theory that I have not seen discussed. The other Penn Line PRR Locomotives, the E-6, K-4 and L-1 were advertised first as John English products, "Coming Soon!" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   A John English flier pictures the H-9 Consolidation parts, and tells of the additional models "Coming soon" in the box at lower left, large John English company name at the bottom. Sorry I did not bid higher on it as I only have a webphoto of the flier, and will post for today in my Plainsman's Pick's album, last photo, in a few minutes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Seeing this flier really rocked my understanding of Penn Line, as it seems despite the name, the only locomotives they designed from scratch were the Crusader, Giant PRR T-1 Duplex and the little Whitcomb!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I will be interested in your, and other's reaction to this flier!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Roger, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Adding this to the Email reply you sent. Thanks for the answers below. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I feel based on the answers to my request, that we might be dealing with one of the first plastic items John English made / sold after stopping the John English metal line.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Everything fits. The year 1954 would be roughly the transition time frame from John English metal to HObbyline plastic . The use of the John English boxes (to use up stock) and maybe the art work/boxes for HObbyline not ready. Using the stickers on the box saying plastic, HObbyline, etc. An undecorated plastic body. Sound plausible, possibly ?? Do you or anyone else think likely ??? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > **** Now to really go "out on a limb" . NO facts only certain statements. John English and the owners of Penn Line knew each other and had a working relationship. Hence Penn Line taking over some John English / HObbyline designs. We have just seen the undecorated red/reddish plastic body for the HObbyline FA body. We also know Penn Line produced their Whitcomb with plastic bodies most black but a red body has been mentioned. I don't think we ever knew who produced these plastic bodied items for either company of if they produced them their selves. ****
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > COULD IT BE POSSIBLE THAT THE PLASTIC BODIES FOR HOBBYLINE / JOHN ENGLISH AND PENN LINE WERE PRODUCED BY THE SAME ENTITY (whom ever that might be) ???? Just a wild guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > From: Roger Aultman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Jim Yes the box label says "HOBBYLINE #2100K KIT ALCO A UNIT POWERED" the instructions do refer to the body as being polystyrene. I think it was 1954 when I saw the first kit, several have come up on eBay with this box, Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I hit send to quick. Had a question. That is a plastic HObbyline engine in a John English metal box. Did it come that way ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > From: Roger Aultman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > To: VINTAGE H-0 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Subject: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > In my haste I neglected to attach the pix kf the subgle J-E Alco Fa. Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10043
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: John English - Penn Line Connections
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H, All,  To be complete, I should have added that John English also advertised the H-9 "castings kit" and PRR high side tender in his July 1947 Model Railroader ad, also including a photograph of his PRR A5 Yard Bird (two words).  The 0-4-0 Yard Bird also appeared alone in other ads during the year.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
ong --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Jim H., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I was not able to make enough time to go through more than the 1948 Model Railroader issues last evening, but did find somthing more of intertest.  In his approximately quarter page January, 1947 ad, John English was already selling his PRR high side tender! It was pictured below the H9 Consolidation "castings kit" and which claimed "over 1,000 (H-9 kits) sold since last May" (1947).  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Here is what it says about the tender: "NEW! HO Tender. Suitable for Pacific, Atlantic, Consolidation, Mikado or Ten Wheeler. PRR prototype, but similar to tenders used on most roads. Die-cast zinc alloy body and frame. Lots of authentic detail! Rivets all around! Quick easy assembly. See you dealer or write English. Tender kit complete, less trucks, $5.95." 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The photograph is a bit dark, the model being painted loco black and decal lettered. It seems to be the high side PRR tender as later manufactured by Penn Line and definitely not the later John English tender.  The only detail that I can see is different is that there is a fillet where the high coal collar side slope meets the lower portion of tender side, vs. the sharp angle of the later Penn Line ones.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> This is interesting as I believe Bowser had to retire only the high-side tender model a few years ago due to "die problems" - possibly suporting the fact that those high-side tender dies were the oldest and had been modeified at least once.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> While not conclusive evidence, what these ads establish though, is that flier I posted the photo of must date from 1947, as the tender was still advertised as "coming soon" and by January 1948, it was available. So it seems documented that John English was first planning a whole line of PRR prototype steam locomotives and was selling parts for the H-9 and tender.  Anyway, will check 1947 and 1949 issues soon. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     My first thoughts are anything possible. I think it would be important here to remember pictures that Jim Waterman has shown of Penn Line prototypes that his father Vince of Trackside Specialties got when the auction  of Penn Line took place. Maybe he can add facst to this discussion about the engine types you mention.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     I have never seen the flier that mentions the John English "Coming Soon " engines that became part of Penn Line line. VERY INTERESTING.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 10:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: John English - Penn Line Connections
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   I think both your theories are plausible, and believe that John English and "the boys" at Penn Line had a close working realtionship. Carstens mentions them all getting together at the periodic meetings of the Eastern Model Rairoad Equipment Manufacturers Association held in that Trenton, NJ/Yardley, PA area. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   My realization of that close working relationship came when looking at my new back issues of the magazines I bought a couple years ago and first seeing those little John English photo ads for the parts to what I always "knew" as the Penn Line H-9 Consolidation. It completely changed my undertstading of Penn Line's origins.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   But now I am going to bring forth another confirmation of your close working realtionship theory that I have not seen discussed. The other Penn Line PRR Locomotives, the E-6, K-4 and L-1 were advertised first as John English products, "Coming Soon!" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   A John English flier pictures the H-9 Consolidation parts, and tells of the additional models "Coming soon" in the box at lower left, large John English company name at the bottom. Sorry I did not bid higher on it as I only have a webphoto of the flier, and will post for today in my Plainsman's Pick's album, last photo, in a few minutes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Seeing this flier really rocked my understanding of Penn Line, as it seems despite the name, the only locomotives they designed from scratch were the Crusader, Giant PRR T-1 Duplex and the little Whitcomb!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   I will be interested in your, and other's reaction to this flier!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Roger, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Adding this to the Email reply you sent. Thanks for the answers below. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > I feel based on the answers to my request, that we might be dealing with one of the first plastic items John English made / sold after stopping the John English metal line.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Everything fits. The year 1954 would be roughly the transition time frame from John English metal to HObbyline plastic . The use of the John English boxes (to use up stock) and maybe the art work/boxes for HObbyline not ready. Using the stickers on the box saying plastic, HObbyline, etc. An undecorated plastic body. Sound plausible, possibly ?? Do you or anyone else think likely ??? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > **** Now to really go "out on a limb" . NO facts only certain statements. John English and the owners of Penn Line knew each other and had a working relationship. Hence Penn Line taking over some John English / HObbyline designs. We have just seen the undecorated red/reddish plastic body for the HObbyline FA body. We also know Penn Line produced their Whitcomb with plastic bodies most black but a red body has been mentioned. I don't think we ever knew who produced these plastic bodied items for either company of if they produced them their selves. ****
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > COULD IT BE POSSIBLE THAT THE PLASTIC BODIES FOR HOBBYLINE / JOHN ENGLISH AND PENN LINE WERE PRODUCED BY THE SAME ENTITY (whom ever that might be) ???? Just a wild guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > From: Roger Aultman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Jim Yes the box label says "HOBBYLINE #2100K KIT ALCO A UNIT POWERED" the instructions do refer to the body as being polystyrene. I think it was 1954 when I saw the first kit, several have come up on eBay with this box, Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > I hit send to quick. Had a question. That is a plastic HObbyline engine in a John English metal box. Did it come that way ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > From: Roger Aultman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > To: VINTAGE H-0 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Subject: [vintageHO] Forgot attachment [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > In my haste I neglected to attach the pix kf the subgle J-E Alco Fa. Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10044
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 4/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: about those new little pics....
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Just as I suspected.  Looks like I need to save
                                                                                                                                                                                    
what I want.  Just for info purposes - what I do
                                                                                                                                                                                    
now, but not as much as I need to - I just right
                                                                                                                                                                                    
click on the pic after I click on the little guy
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and "SAVE AS" to the folder of my choice.  Doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                    
take much time and it works well.  I could also
                                                                                                                                                                                    
save to a CD.  Got to make some choices and then
                                                                                                                                                                                    
do it on a timely basis.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:24 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] about those new little pics....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > As a matter of information I would like to know a bit
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > more about how the little pics work.  When I click on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > one of the little pics I get a much bigger Pic (thats good).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > What I'm wondering is - will the translation to the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > bigger pic always happen or will it go away after some
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > period of time, if so, how long are we talking about?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > If they will go away I would want to start saving
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the larger pics I'm interested in.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The thumbnails are what yahoo now sends instead of the attachments. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Clicking on the thumbnail takes you to a folder on the group home page where 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the actual attachments are archived.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You can also go to the group page, on left under "messages' you will see 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "attachments".  Clicking on that will bring a page of all the folders, just 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> like the photo albums.  You can then go to the folder you want and view the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> pictures there, again just like the photo albums.  The only downside is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> there is a separate "album" for each message, so it may take a fair bit of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> hunting to find the one you want.  Since this started a couple weeks ago 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> we're already at 65 folders.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo tells us that these will be saved for the foreseeable future.  The 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> space they take up is charged to our photo allotment, but that's 100gb, of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> which we've not even used enough to register on the meter yet )with 65 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> attachment folders and 137 photo albums, we've use "O%" of our allotted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> space).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of course, don't forget that this IS a FREE service Yahoo provides, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> there's nothing stopping them from shutting down the whole groups system any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> time they feel like it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10045
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: about those new little pics....
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 7:46 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: about those new little pics....
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Just as I suspected.  Looks like I need to save
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> what I want.  Just for info purposes - what I do
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> now, but not as much as I need to - I just right
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> click on the pic after I click on the little guy
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and "SAVE AS" to the folder of my choice.  Doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> take much time and it works well.  I could also
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> save to a CD.  Got to make some choices and then
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> do it on a timely basis.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Just to clarify something, are you saving the thumbnail, or the picture 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
AFTER you've opened the file?  If you're saving the thumbnail attached to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the message, all you're saving is a link the webpage.  If you're saving the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
file after you've opened it, you're doing it right.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10046
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Mystery EMD FT's - Sand Cast Bronze/Brass - Via Theo. Parker?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Last September, before I jumped aboard, you had asked some questions about some sand cast bronze or brass FT's that came in a box marked "Diesel Locomotive Freight or Combination Passenger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
/Freight" sold though "Theo. R Parker, The wholesaler who never retails."
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
In the late 1980's, I found and bought one of those first Walthers cast bronze Alco High-Hood Switchers, that was my beginning of collecting Vintage HO, told about in my first post(#9110).  Soon after I bought it, I remembered that a regular vendor at the next show coming up brought numerous cartons of "junk," lined them up on several tables and invited all to dig in to the mostly rusty O and S tinplate, but some HO as well.  He had a sand cast bronze/brass set of FT's, an A&B I had passed over a couple times, wondered about and now wanted them!   
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Next show, I made a bee line for his tables and started the search, soon finding the FT A.  I waved it in the air, asking "How much!" Grinning, he started over, said "Five bucks!" but I did not reply as I had just found the B unit as well.  Confused about my silence as I lifted the B out, and sensing he had a live one on the hook, he quickly added "for both" to seal the deal!  He was happy not to have to lug those extra pounds of alloy around with him any more, had no idea about their origin or what lot or estate he got them from.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
No markings whatsoever on them, someone had drilled a 1/32 hole in the exact center of each windshield panel, probably to begin the cuts with jeweler's saw, but never did.  Aside from someone trying to smooth out one side panel with one of those electric engraving tools, they are otherwise untouched.  I had once read a reference to "Dallas" selling cast bronze FT's and thought these might be them, but a few years ago, after getting several back years of Model Railroader, realized that I did not have the Dallas?/Garco? units after seeing the illustrations.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
They remained a mystery. After joining here, I searched and found your post #7674 (below) which tells of your find of what seems to be a similar set.  You mentioned that someone at the Vintage HO SIG saw yours and said "Does not match Beeman HO FT Shell" and you mentioned never seeing a "Beeman."  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Last night when I was looking for information on the John English-Penn Line cooperation in the 1948 Model Railroaders, I found a photo ad for the Beeman EMD FT A & B.  My castings don't look like Beeman's either!  So we might have the same ones sold through that Theo. Parker, wholesaler.  Beemans' have a higher, more exaggerated squared off roof radiator section and a very sloped windshield.  Will make a copy of the Beeman ad, and later scan for all when I get mine operating, and also take a photo of my castings when the new camera arrives.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
So, we may have the same models (the photos you attached back then were not archived under the Yahoo system back then). My hunch is they might be older, pre-WW 2 as I have yet to find a mention of Theo. Parker, the wholesaler/disributor yet, either. The search continues...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W. Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      I'm searching for help to ID some cast Brass pieces I got from Ebay a couple of years ago. They are HO models of A & B shells for a set of FT's. The box they came in might not be original but is the right size and has this written on it                             Diesel Locomotive    Freight or Combination Passenger Freight     THEO. R. Parker    801 Wylie Avenue    Pittsburgh 19, PA   "The wholesaler who never retails". Even if this is the box the seller sold them in, it gives no indication of who made them. (Sean, How about running over there and asking them)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           Over the years our HOSC&H-SIG has had some very similar models with just about the same request. WHO ???  One showed a drawing of an FT that has the same detail shown but states "metal is whitish silver, probably zinc alloy. Has added "Does not match Beeman HO FT Shell (never heard of Beeman).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          Another very close match are pictures of GARCO FT's. They have GARCO in raised letters inside the body and Challenger in raised (CMC / Challenger Model Company) letters on the other. This is cast Aluminum. My shells have no names cast inside
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           Third are pictures of a set (A&B)  of FT's labeled   Unidentified Cast Brass FT Diesel shells.    These match  mine except a lot rougher around the edges with a lot of "flash". 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           I am only talking about FT shells.  While two of the examples are the wrong material, but could have been cast in other materials also,many guesses have given familiar vintage names. Beeman and Challenger which I never heard of. Dallas Model Craft and their later name Diesel Model Company. The name GARCO and that ever present,at that time, A&S (Adams and Son) casting. Add Cambron to that.            ANY IDEAS
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                               Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10047
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Mystery EMD FT's - Sand Cast Bronze/Brass - Via Theo. Parker?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        I' m going to add to these 
Emails because I'm afraid some of what we are talking about will get lost and 
only partial information might be cited. I apologize for the length of this 
thread but I feel it's needed
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          A while back when I 
first joined the HOSC&H SIG group one member was doing a "write up " on all 
cab diesel bodies. He had made a drawing asking if any one knew what it was. No 
markings but Brass or Bronze and anything in between.  The consensus at the 
time was GARCO (HJ Garret). There has been strong evidence pointing to a close 
relationship between GARCO, Dallas Model Craft and A&S (Adams & Son) who 
produced many top quality Brass, Bronze and Aluminum castings for many companies 
including Varney. It even suggested that GARCO or Dallas Model Craft, either or 
both, had stronger ties then just being 
supplied castings.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        If you go back into past 
messages, and you seem good at finding things, there were numerous exchanges 
between Ray F W and myself mainly discussing a Varney brass / bronze Vanderbilt 
tender and where it fit in Varney history. We found GARCO sold a brass/ bronze 
Vanderbilt tender that was very close to the Varney.  It seems both items 
were actually cast by A&S. Could A&S have cast the aluminum (don't know 
specific mix) vanderbilts Varney sold ?? We decided to leave everything as it 
was, up till then, hoping for more information to come out. If it did we could 
verify more without guessing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        I honestly think my set of FT 
engines were made by GARCO and sold by that Pittsburgh Hobby Shop. 100% 
sure NO. I don't remember if any pictures of these FT bodies were shown.  I 
keep no record of pictures since I have one (actually two A & B) samples in 
hand. If you want pictures of different angles I will send through the site for 
all to see. Maybe someone has more concrete evidence.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 12:11 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery EMD FT's 
  - Sand Cast Bronze/Brass - Via Theo. Parker?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H, All, 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Last September, before I jumped aboard, you had 
  asked some questions about some sand cast bronze or brass FT's that came in a 
  box marked "Diesel Locomotive Freight or Combination Passenger
                                                                                                                                                                                    /Freight" 
  sold though "Theo. R Parker, The wholesaler who never retails."

                                                                                                                                                                                    In the 
  late 1980's, I found and bought one of those first Walthers cast bronze Alco 
  High-Hood Switchers, that was my beginning of collecting Vintage HO, told 
  about in my first post(#9110). Soon after I bought it, I remembered that a 
  regular vendor at the next show coming up brought numerous cartons of "junk," 
  lined them up on several tables and invited all to dig in to the mostly rusty 
  O and S tinplate, but some HO as well. He had a sand cast bronze/brass set of 
  FT's, an A&B I had passed over a couple times, wondered about and now 
  wanted them! 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Next show, I made a bee line for his tables and started 
  the search, soon finding the FT A. I waved it in the air, asking "How much!" 
  Grinning, he started over, said "Five bucks!" but I did not reply as I had 
  just found the B unit as well. Confused about my silence as I lifted the B 
  out, and sensing he had a live one on the hook, he quickly added "for both" to 
  seal the deal! He was happy not to have to lug those extra pounds of alloy 
  around with him any more, had no idea about their origin or what lot or estate 
  he got them from.

                                                                                                                                                                                    No markings whatsoever on them, someone had drilled a 
  1/32 hole in the exact center of each windshield panel, probably to begin the 
  cuts with jeweler's saw, but never did. Aside from someone trying to smooth 
  out one side panel with one of those electric engraving tools, they are 
  otherwise untouched. I had once read a reference to "Dallas" selling cast 
  bronze FT's and thought these might be them, but a few years ago, after 
  getting several back years of Model Railroader, realized that I did not have 
  the Dallas?/Garco? units after seeing the illustrations. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    They remained 
  a mystery. After joining here, I searched and found your post #7674 (below) 
  which tells of your find of what seems to be a similar set. You mentioned that 
  someone at the Vintage HO SIG saw yours and said "Does not match Beeman HO FT 
  Shell" and you mentioned never seeing a "Beeman." 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Last night when I 
  was looking for information on the John English-Penn Line cooperation in the 
  1948 Model Railroaders, I found a photo ad for the Beeman EMD FT A & B. My 
  castings don't look like Beeman's either! So we might have the same ones sold 
  through that Theo. Parker, wholesaler. Beemans' have a higher, more 
  exaggerated squared off roof radiator section and a very sloped windshield. 
  Will make a copy of the Beeman ad, and later scan for all when I get mine 
  operating, and also take a photo of my castings when the new camera arrives. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    So, we may have the same models (the photos you attached back then 
  were not archived under the Yahoo system back then). My hunch is they might be 
  older, pre-WW 2 as I have yet to find a mention of Theo. Parker, the 
  wholesaler/disribut or yet, either. The search continues...

                                                                                                                                                                                    W. Jay 
  W. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  I'm searching for help to ID some cast Brass pieces I got from Ebay a couple 
  of years ago. They are HO models of A & B shells for a set of FT's. The 
  box they came in might not be original but is the right size and has this 
  written on it Diesel Locomotive Freight or Combination Passenger Freight THEO. 
  R. Parker 801 Wylie Avenue Pittsburgh 19, PA "The wholesaler who never 
  retails". Even if this is the box the seller sold them in, it gives no 
  indication of who made them. (Sean, How about running over there and asking 
  them)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Over the years our HOSC&H-SIG has had some very 
  similar models with just about the same request. WHO ??? One showed a drawing 
  of an FT that has the same detail shown but states "metal is whitish silver, 
  probably zinc alloy. Has added "Does not match Beeman HO FT Shell (never heard 
  of Beeman).
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Another very close match are pictures of GARCO 
  FT's. They have GARCO in raised letters inside the body and Challenger in 
  raised (CMC / Challenger Model Company) letters on the other. This is cast 
  Aluminum. My shells have no names cast inside
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Third are 
  pictures of a set (A&B) of FT's labeled Unidentified Cast Brass FT Diesel 
  shells. These match mine except a lot rougher around the edges with a lot of 
  "flash". 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I am only talking about FT shells. While two of the 
  examples are the wrong material, but could have been cast in other materials 
  also,many guesses have given familiar vintage names. Beeman and Challenger 
  which I never heard of. Dallas Model Craft and their later name Diesel Model 
  Company. The name GARCO and that ever present,at that time, A&S (Adams and 
  Son) casting. Add Cambron to that. ANY IDEAS
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10048
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 4/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: about those new little pics....
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I save after clicking on the thumbnail and the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
much larger pic shows up - then save it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 7:46 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: about those new little pics....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Just as I suspected.  Looks like I need to save
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > what I want.  Just for info purposes - what I do
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > now, but not as much as I need to - I just right
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > click on the pic after I click on the little guy
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > and "SAVE AS" to the folder of my choice.  Doesn't
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > take much time and it works well.  I could also
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > save to a CD.  Got to make some choices and then
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > do it on a timely basis.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Just to clarify something, are you saving the thumbnail, or the picture 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> AFTER you've opened the file?  If you're saving the thumbnail attached to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the message, all you're saving is a link the webpage.  If you're saving the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> file after you've opened it, you're doing it right.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10049
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: about those new little pics....
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Good.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 1:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: about those new little pics....
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I save after clicking on the thumbnail and the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> much larger pic shows up - then save it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10050
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Mystery EMD FT's - Sand Cast Bronze/Brass - Via Theo. Parker?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yes, I read those past posts between you and Ray F. W. with great interest when I first arrived here and at least once since, and agree with both your and Ray F. W.'s theories on the tenders and the hunch that Adams was a larger factor, more than only a subcontractor. And I also think those Texas interests were influential in having some models manufactured in the first place. For example:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The 2/3 page DMC, Diesel Model Co., of Dallas Model Railroader ad in December, 1947, below a photo of their FT model, (O scale or HO is not said) states that: "Genuine indestructable bronze castings developed by Adams & Son especially for DMC." "Developed by" their words, not merely "cast by" or "manufactured by;" and "especially for."
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And I'm still not sure, need to find additional information on who or what Harry J. Garret Co. was - was he merely an agressive and successful jobber who packaged castings as his own line, as Garrett/Garco kits?  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I ask that because in the March, 1948 MR, page 190, an illustrated ad for "Custom-Model Railways" PO Box 2114, Dallas, shows what we call the Garrett or Garco Baldwin switcher kit, "Announcing the new 1948-A Baldwin Westinghouse HO Diesel Electric Switcher..."  then this "Available though all agressive dealers and these jobbers:" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
14 jobbers are listed including:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Theo. Parker Pittsburg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Harry Garrett & Co., Dallas
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Polks's New York City, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
So here Garrett is simply listed as a jobber of what we know as a Garrett locomotive. One of my Garrett/Garco Baldwins is in a Harry J Garrett & Co. "Scale Model Supplies" box, the label on one end says merely "Casting Set Only."  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And your FT castings came in a Theo. Parker box.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
So agree, we definitely need to find out more before we make any conclusions, like you say, "we leave everything as it was, up till then, hoping for more information to come out."   
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Unfortunately, my file of Model Railroaders only goes back to include all of 1948, and only have about 12 or so of the small sized issues from 1947 and earlier.  Hope to find some more so I can do more research on a chronological basis.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And yes, Thanks, would like to see a photo of your FT castings when you are able.  At least I can see for sure if mine match.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     I' m going to add to these Emails because I'm afraid some of what we are talking about will get lost and only partial information might be cited. I apologize for the length of this thread but I feel it's needed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       A while back when I first joined the HOSC&H SIG group one member was doing a "write up " on all cab diesel bodies. He had made a drawing asking if any one knew what it was. No markings but Brass or Bronze and anything in between.  The consensus at the time was GARCO (HJ Garret). There has been strong evidence pointing to a close relationship between GARCO, Dallas Model Craft and A&S (Adams & Son) who produced many top quality Brass, Bronze and Aluminum castings for many companies including Varney. It even suggested that GARCO or Dallas Model Craft, either or both, had stronger ties then just being supplied castings.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     If you go back into past messages, and you seem good at finding things, there were numerous exchanges between Ray F W and myself mainly discussing a Varney brass / bronze Vanderbilt tender and where it fit in Varney history. We found GARCO sold a brass/ bronze Vanderbilt tender that was very close to the Varney.  It seems both items were actually cast by A&S. Could A&S have cast the aluminum (don't know specific mix) vanderbilts Varney sold ?? We decided to leave everything as it was, up till then, hoping for more information to come out. If it did we could verify more without guessing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     I honestly think my set of FT engines were made by GARCO and sold by that Pittsburgh Hobby Shop. 100% sure NO. I don't remember if any pictures of these FT bodies were shown.  I keep no record of pictures since I have one (actually two A & B) samples in hand. If you want pictures of different angles I will send through the site for all to see. Maybe someone has more concrete evidence.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 12:11 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery EMD FT's - Sand Cast Bronze/Brass - Via Theo. Parker?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Hi Jim H, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Last September, before I jumped aboard, you had asked some questions about some sand cast bronze or brass FT's that came in a box marked "Diesel Locomotive Freight or Combination Passenger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   /Freight" sold though "Theo. R Parker, The wholesaler who never retails."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   In the late 1980's, I found and bought one of those first Walthers cast bronze Alco High-Hood Switchers, that was my beginning of collecting Vintage HO, told about in my first post(#9110). Soon after I bought it, I remembered that a regular vendor at the next show coming up brought numerous cartons of "junk," lined them up on several tables and invited all to dig in to the mostly rusty O and S tinplate, but some HO as well. He had a sand cast bronze/brass set of FT's, an A&B I had passed over a couple times, wondered about and now wanted them! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Next show, I made a bee line for his tables and started the search, soon finding the FT A. I waved it in the air, asking "How much!" Grinning, he started over, said "Five bucks!" but I did not reply as I had just found the B unit as well. Confused about my silence as I lifted the B out, and sensing he had a live one on the hook, he quickly added "for both" to seal the deal! He was happy not to have to lug those extra pounds of alloy around with him any more, had no idea about their origin or what lot or estate he got them from.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   No markings whatsoever on them, someone had drilled a 1/32 hole in the exact center of each windshield panel, probably to begin the cuts with jeweler's saw, but never did. Aside from someone trying to smooth out one side panel with one of those electric engraving tools, they are otherwise untouched. I had once read a reference to "Dallas" selling cast bronze FT's and thought these might be them, but a few years ago, after getting several back years of Model Railroader, realized that I did not have the Dallas?/Garco? units after seeing the illustrations. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   They remained a mystery. After joining here, I searched and found your post #7674 (below) which tells of your find of what seems to be a similar set. You mentioned that someone at the Vintage HO SIG saw yours and said "Does not match Beeman HO FT Shell" and you mentioned never seeing a "Beeman." 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Last night when I was looking for information on the John English-Penn Line cooperation in the 1948 Model Railroaders, I found a photo ad for the Beeman EMD FT A & B. My castings don't look like Beeman's either! So we might have the same ones sold through that Theo. Parker, wholesaler. Beemans' have a higher, more exaggerated squared off roof radiator section and a very sloped windshield. Will make a copy of the Beeman ad, and later scan for all when I get mine operating, and also take a photo of my castings when the new camera arrives. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   So, we may have the same models (the photos you attached back then were not archived under the Yahoo system back then). My hunch is they might be older, pre-WW 2 as I have yet to find a mention of Theo. Parker, the wholesaler/disributor yet, either. The search continues...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   W. Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I'm searching for help to ID some cast Brass pieces I got from Ebay a couple of years ago. They are HO models of A & B shells for a set of FT's. The box they came in might not be original but is the right size and has this written on it Diesel Locomotive Freight or Combination Passenger Freight THEO. R. Parker 801 Wylie Avenue Pittsburgh 19, PA "The wholesaler who never retails". Even if this is the box the seller sold them in, it gives no indication of who made them. (Sean, How about running over there and asking them)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Over the years our HOSC&H-SIG has had some very similar models with just about the same request. WHO ??? One showed a drawing of an FT that has the same detail shown but states "metal is whitish silver, probably zinc alloy. Has added "Does not match Beeman HO FT Shell (never heard of Beeman).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Another very close match are pictures of GARCO FT's. They have GARCO in raised letters inside the body and Challenger in raised (CMC / Challenger Model Company) letters on the other. This is cast Aluminum. My shells have no names cast inside
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Third are pictures of a set (A&B) of FT's labeled Unidentified Cast Brass FT Diesel shells. These match mine except a lot rougher around the edges with a lot of "flash". 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I am only talking about FT shells. While two of the examples are the wrong material, but could have been cast in other materials also,many guesses have given familiar vintage names. Beeman and Challenger which I never heard of. Dallas Model Craft and their later name Diesel Model Company. The name GARCO and that ever present,at that time, A&S (Adams and Son) casting. Add Cambron to that. ANY IDEAS
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10051
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Mystery EMD FT's - Sand Cast Bronze/Brass - Via Theo. Parker?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Ps. Jim H., I am aware of all of the advertising and paperwork on the Garrett-Garco Baldwin from 1947 in HO Seeker that you supplied. Maybe Garrett's role changed in 1948. In 1949 his ads seem to be just that of a jobber, then the name changes to Garrett-Boyer Co. before dissapearing several months later!  Lots of questions, few answers!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yes, I read those past posts between you and Ray F. W. with great interest when I first arrived here and at least once since, and agree with both your and Ray F. W.'s theories on the tenders and the hunch that Adams was a larger factor, more than only a subcontractor. And I also think those Texas interests were influential in having some models manufactured in the first place. For example:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The 2/3 page DMC, Diesel Model Co., of Dallas Model Railroader ad in December, 1947, below a photo of their FT model, (O scale or HO is not said) states that: "Genuine indestructable bronze castings developed by Adams & Son especially for DMC." "Developed by" their words, not merely "cast by" or "manufactured by;" and "especially for."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> And I'm still not sure, need to find additional information on who or what Harry J. Garret Co. was - was he merely an agressive and successful jobber who packaged castings as his own line, as Garrett/Garco kits?  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I ask that because in the March, 1948 MR, page 190, an illustrated ad for "Custom-Model Railways" PO Box 2114, Dallas, shows what we call the Garrett or Garco Baldwin switcher kit, "Announcing the new 1948-A Baldwin Westinghouse HO Diesel Electric Switcher..."  then this "Available though all agressive dealers and these jobbers:" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 14 jobbers are listed including:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Theo. Parker Pittsburg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Harry Garrett & Co., Dallas
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Polks's New York City, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> So here Garrett is simply listed as a jobber of what we know as a Garrett locomotive. One of my Garrett/Garco Baldwins is in a Harry J Garrett & Co. "Scale Model Supplies" box, the label on one end says merely "Casting Set Only."  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> And your FT castings came in a Theo. Parker box.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> So agree, we definitely need to find out more before we make any conclusions, like you say, "we leave everything as it was, up till then, hoping for more information to come out."   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Unfortunately, my file of Model Railroaders only goes back to include all of 1948, and only have about 12 or so of the small sized issues from 1947 and earlier.  Hope to find some more so I can do more research on a chronological basis.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> And yes, Thanks, would like to see a photo of your FT castings when you are able.  At least I can see for sure if mine match.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     I' m going to add to these Emails because I'm afraid some of what we are talking about will get lost and only partial information might be cited. I apologize for the length of this thread but I feel it's needed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >       A while back when I first joined the HOSC&H SIG group one member was doing a "write up " on all cab diesel bodies. He had made a drawing asking if any one knew what it was. No markings but Brass or Bronze and anything in between.  The consensus at the time was GARCO (HJ Garret). There has been strong evidence pointing to a close relationship between GARCO, Dallas Model Craft and A&S (Adams & Son) who produced many top quality Brass, Bronze and Aluminum castings for many companies including Varney. It even suggested that GARCO or Dallas Model Craft, either or both, had stronger ties then just being supplied castings.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     If you go back into past messages, and you seem good at finding things, there were numerous exchanges between Ray F W and myself mainly discussing a Varney brass / bronze Vanderbilt tender and where it fit in Varney history. We found GARCO sold a brass/ bronze Vanderbilt tender that was very close to the Varney.  It seems both items were actually cast by A&S. Could A&S have cast the aluminum (don't know specific mix) vanderbilts Varney sold ?? We decided to leave everything as it was, up till then, hoping for more information to come out. If it did we could verify more without guessing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     I honestly think my set of FT engines were made by GARCO and sold by that Pittsburgh Hobby Shop. 100% sure NO. I don't remember if any pictures of these FT bodies were shown.  I keep no record of pictures since I have one (actually two A & B) samples in hand. If you want pictures of different angles I will send through the site for all to see. Maybe someone has more concrete evidence.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 12:11 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery EMD FT's - Sand Cast Bronze/Brass - Via Theo. Parker?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Hi Jim H, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Last September, before I jumped aboard, you had asked some questions about some sand cast bronze or brass FT's that came in a box marked "Diesel Locomotive Freight or Combination Passenger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   /Freight" sold though "Theo. R Parker, The wholesaler who never retails."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   In the late 1980's, I found and bought one of those first Walthers cast bronze Alco High-Hood Switchers, that was my beginning of collecting Vintage HO, told about in my first post(#9110). Soon after I bought it, I remembered that a regular vendor at the next show coming up brought numerous cartons of "junk," lined them up on several tables and invited all to dig in to the mostly rusty O and S tinplate, but some HO as well. He had a sand cast bronze/brass set of FT's, an A&B I had passed over a couple times, wondered about and now wanted them! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Next show, I made a bee line for his tables and started the search, soon finding the FT A. I waved it in the air, asking "How much!" Grinning, he started over, said "Five bucks!" but I did not reply as I had just found the B unit as well. Confused about my silence as I lifted the B out, and sensing he had a live one on the hook, he quickly added "for both" to seal the deal! He was happy not to have to lug those extra pounds of alloy around with him any more, had no idea about their origin or what lot or estate he got them from.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   No markings whatsoever on them, someone had drilled a 1/32 hole in the exact center of each windshield panel, probably to begin the cuts with jeweler's saw, but never did. Aside from someone trying to smooth out one side panel with one of those electric engraving tools, they are otherwise untouched. I had once read a reference to "Dallas" selling cast bronze FT's and thought these might be them, but a few years ago, after getting several back years of Model Railroader, realized that I did not have the Dallas?/Garco? units after seeing the illustrations. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   They remained a mystery. After joining here, I searched and found your post #7674 (below) which tells of your find of what seems to be a similar set. You mentioned that someone at the Vintage HO SIG saw yours and said "Does not match Beeman HO FT Shell" and you mentioned never seeing a "Beeman." 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Last night when I was looking for information on the John English-Penn Line cooperation in the 1948 Model Railroaders, I found a photo ad for the Beeman EMD FT A & B. My castings don't look like Beeman's either! So we might have the same ones sold through that Theo. Parker, wholesaler. Beemans' have a higher, more exaggerated squared off roof radiator section and a very sloped windshield. Will make a copy of the Beeman ad, and later scan for all when I get mine operating, and also take a photo of my castings when the new camera arrives. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   So, we may have the same models (the photos you attached back then were not archived under the Yahoo system back then). My hunch is they might be older, pre-WW 2 as I have yet to find a mention of Theo. Parker, the wholesaler/disributor yet, either. The search continues...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   W. Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > I'm searching for help to ID some cast Brass pieces I got from Ebay a couple of years ago. They are HO models of A & B shells for a set of FT's. The box they came in might not be original but is the right size and has this written on it Diesel Locomotive Freight or Combination Passenger Freight THEO. R. Parker 801 Wylie Avenue Pittsburgh 19, PA "The wholesaler who never retails". Even if this is the box the seller sold them in, it gives no indication of who made them. (Sean, How about running over there and asking them)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Over the years our HOSC&H-SIG has had some very similar models with just about the same request. WHO ??? One showed a drawing of an FT that has the same detail shown but states "metal is whitish silver, probably zinc alloy. Has added "Does not match Beeman HO FT Shell (never heard of Beeman).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Another very close match are pictures of GARCO FT's. They have GARCO in raised letters inside the body and Challenger in raised (CMC / Challenger Model Company) letters on the other. This is cast Aluminum. My shells have no names cast inside
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Third are pictures of a set (A&B) of FT's labeled Unidentified Cast Brass FT Diesel shells. These match mine except a lot rougher around the edges with a lot of "flash". 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > I am only talking about FT shells. While two of the examples are the wrong material, but could have been cast in other materials also,many guesses have given familiar vintage names. Beeman and Challenger which I never heard of. Dallas Model Craft and their later name Diesel Model Company. The name GARCO and that ever present,at that time, A&S (Adams and Son) casting. Add Cambron to that. ANY IDEAS
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10052
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 4/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Varney Casey Jones, 1st vs 2nd run: headlight change?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Since joining this List, I've managed to purchase a 1st run and a 2nd 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
run Varney Casey Jones locomotive.  Thank you Jim and List.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
So I'm back asking more Casey Jones questions:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
In reviewing photos of Jim's collection and the physical models now 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
in front of me, I see the old, "fully hooded," headlight of the first 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
run has changed in the second run.  Second run seems to have had the, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"hood," bobbed off almost entirely.  On the other hand, I got a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
chance to look at a NOS Bowser, unbuilt, Casey Jones kit, and there 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
was the fully hooded headlight.   ??????????   Or did a lot of folks 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
take a file to the headlight and that's what I'm noticing??  I'm 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
thinking the boiler/cab casting would have remained the same 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
throughout production life with Varney and Bowser.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thoughts?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Also, anyone know when blind center drivers were used, (or not used), 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
on these locomotives?  I seem to have ended up with one of each, the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
example I have with the blind driver is on a 1st run version.  But 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I've now seen a second, 1st run version, with all flanged drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10053
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: "unknown" FT's
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            Here are 
pictures of the "unknown (but I think GARCO) cast brass FT  A&B I have. 
Hopefully taken from different angles you will be able to compare. When looking 
at the bottom of the A unit you will see a brass piece has been ADDED, front and 
back. Who ever owned these before had started to do something with them. There's 
a handmade brass frame in the box they came in that would fit on theses added 
supports. also you will see that a couple of the ladders have been filed down 
closer to size.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I'm 
really glad you found something out about Theo. Parker being a distributor for 
GARCO products. I still believe Adams and Son not just the casters of parts but 
a major backer of Garco and/or Dallas Model Craft. While it remains to be 
totally verified right now everything points to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           On an entirely 
different note I want to tell you that every time I see an Email from you I am 
totally amazed. The research time, going back into all the messages on site, 
information from train books, recall of past conversations, etc. is outstanding. 
Then to put it all together without mistakes and in a form very easy to 
understand when sent. I wish I was that good.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           Again a good 
site draws good people.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10054
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones, 1st vs 2nd run: headlight change?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              I  must 
confess that I had never looked that close at possible headlight casting 
changes. It could be some one reworked your one engine. Later I will go back to 
my two samples and also look at pictures in Greenberg's Guide to Varney trains. 
Hopefully I can respond better.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         Again on the flanged 
driver part I will have to check. Maybe by that time someone else might 
know.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I will respond by evening. Changing drivers on the 
Varney 4-6-0 and 2-8-0 light consolidation not that hard so maybe something was 
changed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 1:30 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Casey Jones, 
  1st vs 2nd run: headlight change?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Since joining this List, I've managed to purchase a 1st run and a 2nd 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    run Varney Casey Jones locomotive. Thank you Jim and List.

                                                                                                                                                                                    So I'm 
  back asking more Casey Jones questions:

                                                                                                                                                                                    In reviewing photos of Jim's 
  collection and the physical models now 
                                                                                                                                                                                    in front of me, I see the old, 
  "fully hooded," headlight of the first 
                                                                                                                                                                                    run has changed in the second run. 
  Second run seems to have had the, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    "hood," bobbed off almost entirely. On 
  the other hand, I got a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    chance to look at a NOS Bowser, unbuilt, Casey 
  Jones kit, and there 
                                                                                                                                                                                    was the fully hooded headlight. ?????????? Or did a 
  lot of folks 
                                                                                                                                                                                    take a file to the headlight and that's what I'm noticing?? 
  I'm 
                                                                                                                                                                                    thinking the boiler/cab casting would have remained the same 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    throughout production life with Varney and 
  Bowser.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thoughts?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Also, anyone know when blind center drivers 
  were used, (or not used), 
                                                                                                                                                                                    on these locomotives? I seem to have ended up 
  with one of each, the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    example I have with the blind driver is on a 1st run 
  version. But 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I've now seen a second, 1st run version, with all flanged 
  drivers.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA 

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10055
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones, 1st vs 2nd run: headlight change?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis L.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Congratulatons on your recent purchases. Your "Casey Jones" 4-6-0 and the "Old Lady" 2-8-0 were the last totally new steam locomotives that Varney introduced and had a lot more in common, as far as production and assembly go, with the competition, Penn Line and all zamac Mantua, than they did with the earlier Varney line that was designed in the 1930's.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I believe they are a good collection topic in their own right, having a longer life (50+ years) than any Varney except the Docksider/Little Joe.  A specilized collection of the models and related paper through Bowser production would be interesting to see and learn from, and fun too!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The Bowser Reference Manual tells how over the years, almost everything was changed and how few parts could interchange between original and new.  Aside from my having one original used boiler and rear cab wall castinings that I pulled out this morning, and a long consideration to buy a Consolidation to model one of Erie's early examples, I have no experience with them except for constant later grade school yard debates with a classmate as to who's was better, my Penn Line H-9 or his Varney "Old Lady." 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
As to variations during specific Varney production, as that extended over at least 15 years, I think you are right to express caution over concluding any varience in detail (like that headlight hood) that could have been the result of many modelers' modifications versus a factory die-change. Many prototype roads did not use hoods.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
If you take a look at the Bowser manual, they specifically note that the boiler casting was modified, but notes the modification was mainly to enable it to used a DC 71 motor instead of the DC-60.  I also noticed, by comparing my original casting to the Bowser photos, that the lower firebox extension was also altered.  You may find more by comparing examples side by side.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm sure others will have much to add about these popular locomotives!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Since joining this List, I've managed to purchase a 1st run and a 2nd 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> run Varney Casey Jones locomotive.  Thank you Jim and List.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> So I'm back asking more Casey Jones questions:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In reviewing photos of Jim's collection and the physical models now 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in front of me, I see the old, "fully hooded," headlight of the first 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> run has changed in the second run.  Second run seems to have had the, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "hood," bobbed off almost entirely.  On the other hand, I got a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> chance to look at a NOS Bowser, unbuilt, Casey Jones kit, and there 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> was the fully hooded headlight.   ??????????   Or did a lot of folks 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> take a file to the headlight and that's what I'm noticing??  I'm 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> thinking the boiler/cab casting would have remained the same 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> throughout production life with Varney and Bowser.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thoughts?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Also, anyone know when blind center drivers were used, (or not used), 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> on these locomotives?  I seem to have ended up with one of each, the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> example I have with the blind driver is on a 1st run version.  But 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I've now seen a second, 1st run version, with all flanged drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10056
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Some Good News - Bowser Steam
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    When  checked Bowser's webpages this AM before responding to Dennis L.'s post on his Varney "Casey Jones"  I found that Bowser has aparantly been impressed with the response to their stopping production and has now changed their "production ended" paragraph and is going back into limited production for some locomotives based on back-orders via drect sales.  No "April Foolin",   here is what it says:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    "The HO Steam Loco kits are in very limited production. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Small batches may be produced if enough backorders are placed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Customers may place a backorder and we will notify you when the kits are produced.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    At that time, the customer may decide if he wants the kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry no Dealer Sales of Steam Loco Kits or Superdetail Kit!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                    All loco kits will not include boiler weights.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Even if the weight is shown in the instructions it will not be included. "  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://bowser-trains.com/holocos/holocos.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    When I heard of the orginal cessation, I immediately ordered two kits the B-6 and A-5, and I'm sure many other have as well.  If they did not come through the system, ( have to check tomorrow) I will have to order direct.  I am considering a third, the T-1, skipping over ordering some new Chinese stuff sceheduled for delivery in the fall so I can fit the Bowser into my budget.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    One reason I picked the B-6 0-6-0 was that the kit may be the last totally new zamac locomotive kit designed from the rail up (in 1995) in the US, (and one prototype was used in NJ until the early 1960's, leased from PRR by the U.T.)  The A-5 kit designed new in 1992, would also fit in with a collection of other A-5 models and also in a collection of the 0-4-0's of all manufacturers.  Both have can motors and the new Bowesr gearboxes, too.  The B-6 kit incudes all brass superdetails in the kit and is predrilled to mount all of them. (end of shameless plug)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10057
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Headlight Varney 4-6-0
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dennis, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
I checked my two Varney versions of the 4-6-0 and also pictures in Greenberg's 
Guide to Varney Trains. Surprisingly the picture in Greenberg's Guide is a 
Bowser production, and stated as such, not a Varney. From these 3 examples I 
will try to answer two questions you posed. Remember this is a very limited 
number of samples.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                The 
early version I have of the Varney 4-6-0 HAS the hood extension over the 
headlight. This engine has NO blind drivers BUT the middle set has a little 
different coloration (newer looking) that COULD suggest they were 
changed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                The 
second VARNEY version I have has NO hood extension over the headlight like the 
first version. (I can't tell if altered as I had painted this item.). Again NO 
blind drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
The BOWSER 4-6-0  pictured in the Greenberg book states it is a BOWSER 
version. It HAS the hood extension and DOES have blind drivers for the middle 
set.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              How conclusive 
this is I can't say. Hopefully a number of others will send in information 
.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10058
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Mystery EMD FT's - Sand Cast Bronze/Brass - Via Theo. Parker?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim, All, Been busy lately, but had to make time to get back here on this very interesting thread.  I believe I told you a while back that I have a Harry J Garrett cast bronze vanderbilt tender w/plans (and described it to you), probably cast by Adams & Sons (did we mention that part?).  Not sure if I mentioned my having the Varney 1932K bronze Vandy cast by Adams & Sons which is virtually identical, but then, maybe I did -- and no doubt you probably have one too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
With Adams & Sons so intertwined in the background of this act. I'm wonder if Adams may have cast Varney's steam boilers for him.  This foundry seems to have had an interest in so many different bronze model castings of many manufacturers, some discussed here, and also for Lobaugh, Great Western and Hines Lines.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
According to Dave Spanagel, Adams & Sons did cast the aluminum Vanderbilt tenders for Varney, also.  Ray F. W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     I' m going to add to these Emails because I'm afraid some of what we are talking about will get lost and only partial information might be cited. I apologize for the length of this thread but I feel it's needed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       A while back when I first joined the HOSC&H SIG group one member was doing a "write up " on all cab diesel bodies. He had made a drawing asking if any one knew what it was. No markings but Brass or Bronze and anything in between.  The consensus at the time was GARCO (HJ Garret). There has been strong evidence pointing to a close relationship between GARCO, Dallas Model Craft and A&S (Adams & Son) who produced many top quality Brass, Bronze and Aluminum castings for many companies including Varney. It even suggested that GARCO or Dallas Model Craft, either or both, had stronger ties then just being supplied castings.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     If you go back into past messages, and you seem good at finding things, there were numerous exchanges between Ray F W and myself mainly discussing a Varney brass / bronze Vanderbilt tender and where it fit in Varney history. We found GARCO sold a brass/ bronze Vanderbilt tender that was very close to the Varney.  It seems both items were actually cast by A&S. Could A&S have cast the aluminum (don't know specific mix) vanderbilts Varney sold ?? We decided to leave everything as it was, up till then, hoping for more information to come out. If it did we could verify more without guessing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     I honestly think my set of FT engines were made by GARCO and sold by that Pittsburgh Hobby Shop. 100% sure NO. I don't remember if any pictures of these FT bodies were shown.  I keep no record of pictures since I have one (actually two A & B) samples in hand. If you want pictures of different angles I will send through the site for all to see. Maybe someone has more concrete evidence.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 12:11 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery EMD FT's - Sand Cast Bronze/Brass - Via Theo. Parker?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Hi Jim H, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Last September, before I jumped aboard, you had asked some questions about some sand cast bronze or brass FT's that came in a box marked "Diesel Locomotive Freight or Combination Passenger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   /Freight" sold though "Theo. R Parker, The wholesaler who never retails."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   In the late 1980's, I found and bought one of those first Walthers cast bronze Alco High-Hood Switchers, that was my beginning of collecting Vintage HO, told about in my first post(#9110). Soon after I bought it, I remembered that a regular vendor at the next show coming up brought numerous cartons of "junk," lined them up on several tables and invited all to dig in to the mostly rusty O and S tinplate, but some HO as well. He had a sand cast bronze/brass set of FT's, an A&B I had passed over a couple times, wondered about and now wanted them! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Next show, I made a bee line for his tables and started the search, soon finding the FT A. I waved it in the air, asking "How much!" Grinning, he started over, said "Five bucks!" but I did not reply as I had just found the B unit as well. Confused about my silence as I lifted the B out, and sensing he had a live one on the hook, he quickly added "for both" to seal the deal! He was happy not to have to lug those extra pounds of alloy around with him any more, had no idea about their origin or what lot or estate he got them from.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   No markings whatsoever on them, someone had drilled a 1/32 hole in the exact center of each windshield panel, probably to begin the cuts with jeweler's saw, but never did. Aside from someone trying to smooth out one side panel with one of those electric engraving tools, they are otherwise untouched. I had once read a reference to "Dallas" selling cast bronze FT's and thought these might be them, but a few years ago, after getting several back years of Model Railroader, realized that I did not have the Dallas?/Garco? units after seeing the illustrations. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   They remained a mystery. After joining here, I searched and found your post #7674 (below) which tells of your find of what seems to be a similar set. You mentioned that someone at the Vintage HO SIG saw yours and said "Does not match Beeman HO FT Shell" and you mentioned never seeing a "Beeman." 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Last night when I was looking for information on the John English-Penn Line cooperation in the 1948 Model Railroaders, I found a photo ad for the Beeman EMD FT A & B. My castings don't look like Beeman's either! So we might have the same ones sold through that Theo. Parker, wholesaler. Beemans' have a higher, more exaggerated squared off roof radiator section and a very sloped windshield. Will make a copy of the Beeman ad, and later scan for all when I get mine operating, and also take a photo of my castings when the new camera arrives. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   So, we may have the same models (the photos you attached back then were not archived under the Yahoo system back then). My hunch is they might be older, pre-WW 2 as I have yet to find a mention of Theo. Parker, the wholesaler/disributor yet, either. The search continues...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   W. Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I'm searching for help to ID some cast Brass pieces I got from Ebay a couple of years ago. They are HO models of A & B shells for a set of FT's. The box they came in might not be original but is the right size and has this written on it Diesel Locomotive Freight or Combination Passenger Freight THEO. R. Parker 801 Wylie Avenue Pittsburgh 19, PA "The wholesaler who never retails". Even if this is the box the seller sold them in, it gives no indication of who made them. (Sean, How about running over there and asking them)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Over the years our HOSC&H-SIG has had some very similar models with just about the same request. WHO ??? One showed a drawing of an FT that has the same detail shown but states "metal is whitish silver, probably zinc alloy. Has added "Does not match Beeman HO FT Shell (never heard of Beeman).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Another very close match are pictures of GARCO FT's. They have GARCO in raised letters inside the body and Challenger in raised (CMC / Challenger Model Company) letters on the other. This is cast Aluminum. My shells have no names cast inside
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Third are pictures of a set (A&B) of FT's labeled Unidentified Cast Brass FT Diesel shells. These match mine except a lot rougher around the edges with a lot of "flash". 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I am only talking about FT shells. While two of the examples are the wrong material, but could have been cast in other materials also,many guesses have given familiar vintage names. Beeman and Challenger which I never heard of. Dallas Model Craft and their later name Diesel Model Company. The name GARCO and that ever present,at that time, A&S (Adams and Son) casting. Add Cambron to that. ANY IDEAS
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10059
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Don,  I doubt very much that the FA body in the John English kit is a John English casting.  If it is (and that's still possible), it appears that the steps had been broken off and then filed smooth the rest of the way even with the body line.  I've never seen John English FA's without cast-on steps.  If they weren't broken off and filed, then this casting is probably a Lindsay -- similar to what Hobbytown of Boston used (steps had to be added on).  Still a nice model, but like Varney F Units, it's nice to have all the cast-on steps if you're collecting it as a John English piece.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You're lucky payday is a week away, otherwise I probably would have bid on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> it.  :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "Wobbly913" <wobbly913@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 1:05 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have primarily collected Athearn and some Globe with some AHM and Mantua 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> so it seemed time to branch out and collect something new. I have a couple 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of Athearn PA's but little other Alco so it seemed a good time to get into 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> an FA.. also appealed to me that it is a metal model rather than plastic(I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> am fond of the Athearn metal line and RDC's). So yes, I paid a little under 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> $25.00 for it, maybe a little high but not collecting that line had no idea 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> what it might actually be worth. The ad indicated that most of the zamac was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in good shape, I will soon see as it supposedly shipped out priority mail 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- On Thu, 4/23/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10060
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Headlight Varney 4-6-0
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ahhhh.  Well, this is getting interesting.  Thank you,
Jim.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
When I look closely at the hood-less headlight, the front of the light is
not finished flat/vertical.  It has a slight slope, (tilted top
forward just a little...if that makes sense).  It also has a light
bulb in it and I wonder if adding lighting to these boilers prompted the
owners to modify the casting.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
What annoys me relates to the prototype headlamps.  I've seen a
number of real locomotive headlights and none had tilted fronts.  So
the slope in the model bugs me.  I'm sure some of these, "rivet
counting," details are lost to the veil of time, but I find it
fascinating to try to figure things out. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
For my enjoyment of Varney models, to me, none of my questions are of
critical importance, but interesting debate.  I still like all of
the early Varney locomotives and this List has become a new enjoyment to
me.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 08:31 AM 4/26/2009, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
             
Dennis, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

            
I checked my two Varney versions of the 4-6-0 and also pictures in
Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains. Surprisingly the picture in
Greenberg's Guide is a Bowser production, and stated as such, not a
Varney. From these 3 examples I will try to answer two questions you
posed. Remember this is a very limited number of samples.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

            The
early version I have of the Varney 4-6-0 HAS the hood extension over the
headlight. This engine has NO blind drivers BUT the middle set has a
little different coloration (newer looking) that COULD suggest they were
changed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

            The
second VARNEY version I have has NO hood extension over the headlight
like the first version. (I can't tell if altered as I had painted this
item.). Again NO blind drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

            
The BOWSER 4-6-0  pictured in the Greenberg book states it is a
BOWSER version. It HAS the hood extension and DOES have blind drivers for
the middle set.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          How
conclusive this is I can't say. Hopefully a number of others will send in
information .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
             

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
   
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10061
						From: solly_46
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: A dealer with some old HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To those who may be interested, a friend of mine, Jim Derr, is a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> dealer in older trains (he is retired and goes to about 20 shows a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> year) and while he deals primarily in N Scale, he also gets a lot of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> older HO. Today while visiting him he showed me a group of early HO 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> boxcars and reefers (paper sides, cast pot metal trucks, etc) as well 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> as an Athearn rubber-band (Hi-F) drive GP-9 in SP Black Widow. He 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> also had one of the old Athearn 40-ft flats with a single trailer on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> it. Didn't catch the road name of the flat or the trailer but it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> looked to be in good nick.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have suggested he join our group, but just in case he doesn't, if 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> anyone is interested email me off line and I will pass along his 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> email address (he said it was ok to do so.) He also has lots of old 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> HO loco and car parts (too many to even go through) but I suspect 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> that if you know what you are looking for he can dig through to see 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> if he can find it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> He is not a collector so don't expect him to know what it is he has, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> he is strictly a good dealer who helps move stuff out of estates and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> back into circulation. He usually calls me up to look over his stuff 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and tell him what he has.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Matt Coleman
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Matt, I am looking for a shell black widow for an Athearn F7A
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Randy
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10062
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Headlight Varney 4-6-0
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis, All,  I can only add that while not all of Varney's catalogs show the Casey Jones, the 1950, 1955 and 1956 catalogs all show this engine as having a hooded headlight.  Sol Kramer's 1966 Varney catalog seems to show an extended headlight housing of even proportions, but I never had one of Kramer's Casey Jones engines to be able to see it in real life.  Ray F. W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>               Dennis, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>              I checked my two Varney versions of the 4-6-0 and also pictures in Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains. Surprisingly the picture in Greenberg's Guide is a Bowser production, and stated as such, not a Varney. From these 3 examples I will try to answer two questions you posed. Remember this is a very limited number of samples.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             The early version I have of the Varney 4-6-0 HAS the hood extension over the headlight. This engine has NO blind drivers BUT the middle set has a little different coloration (newer looking) that COULD suggest they were changed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             The second VARNEY version I have has NO hood extension over the headlight like the first version. (I can't tell if altered as I had painted this item.). Again NO blind drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>              The BOWSER 4-6-0  pictured in the Greenberg book states it is a BOWSER version. It HAS the hood extension and DOES have blind drivers for the middle set.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           How conclusive this is I can't say. Hopefully a number of others will send in information .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>               
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10063
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Headlight Varney 4-6-0
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        For what it's worth my engine, 
without the hood over the headlight, has that slight pitch inward from the top 
to the bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:31 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Headlight Varney 
  4-6-0
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ahhhh.  Well, this is getting interesting.  Thank you, 
  Jim.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    When I look closely at the hood-less headlight, the front 
  of the light is not finished flat/vertical.  It has a slight slope, 
  (tilted top forward just a little...if that makes sense).  It also has a 
  light bulb in it and I wonder if adding lighting to these boilers prompted the 
  owners to modify the casting.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    What annoys me relates to the 
  prototype headlamps.  I've seen a number of real locomotive headlights 
  and none had tilted fronts.  So the slope in the model bugs me.  I'm 
  sure some of these, "rivet counting," details are lost to the veil of time, 
  but I find it fascinating to try to figure things out. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    For my 
  enjoyment of Varney models, to me, none of my questions are of critical 
  importance, but interesting debate.  I still like all of the early Varney 
  locomotives and this List has become a new enjoyment to me.  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                     





                                                                                                                                                                                    At 08:31 AM 4/26/2009, you 
  wrote:


                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Dennis, All
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
    I checked my two Varney versions of the 4-6-0 and also pictures in 
    Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains. Surprisingly the picture in Greenberg's 
    Guide is a Bowser production, and stated as such, not a Varney. From these 3 
    examples I will try to answer two questions you posed. Remember this is a 
    very limited number of samples.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    The early version I have of the Varney 4-6-0 HAS the hood extension over the 
    headlight. This engine has NO blind drivers BUT the middle set has a little 
    different coloration (newer looking) that COULD suggest they were 
    changed.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    The second VARNEY version I have has NO hood extension over the headlight 
    like the first version. (I can't tell if altered as I had painted this 
    item.). Again NO blind drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
    The BOWSER 4-6-0  pictured in the Greenberg book states it is a BOWSER 
    version. It HAS the hood extension and DOES have blind drivers for the 
    middle set.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                              How conclusive 
    this is I can't say. Hopefully a number of others will send in information 
    .
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10064
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Headlight Varney 4-6-0-Jim, et.al.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
Jim:

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I think we're on to something.  On your lokie with the slight pitch,
does it have a headlight bulb??  Was it factory painted??

                                                                                                                                                                                    
If....both of the above answer yes, would it have been a factory
expedient process to grind the headlight hood down for bulb
installation?  That would mean all, (?), factory finished pieces had
altered headlight hoods.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis........thinking of more esoteric questions.......

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 10:45 AM 4/26/2009, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    For what it's worth my engine, without
the hood over the headlight, has that slight pitch inward from the top to
the bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Dennis Thompson

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    To:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:31 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Headlight Varney 4-6-0

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Ahhhh.  Well, this is getting interesting.  Thank you,
Jim.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    When I look closely at the hood-less headlight, the front of the
light is not finished flat/vertical.  It has a slight slope, (tilted
top forward just a little...if that makes sense).  It also has a
light bulb in it and I wonder if adding lighting to these boilers
prompted the owners to modify the casting.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    What annoys me relates to the prototype headlamps.  I've seen a
number of real locomotive headlights and none had tilted fronts.  So
the slope in the model bugs me.  I'm sure some of these, "rivet
counting," details are lost to the veil of time, but I find it
fascinating to try to figure things out. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    For my enjoyment of Varney models, to me, none of my questions are of
critical importance, but interesting debate.  I still like all of
the early Varney locomotives and this List has become a new enjoyment to
me.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    At 08:31 AM 4/26/2009, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
             
Dennis, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
I checked my two Varney versions of the 4-6-0 and also pictures in
Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains. Surprisingly the picture in
Greenberg's Guide is a Bowser production, and stated as such, not a
Varney. From these 3 examples I will try to answer two questions you
posed. Remember this is a very limited number of samples.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
            The
early version I have of the Varney 4-6-0 HAS the hood extension over the
headlight. This engine has NO blind drivers BUT the middle set has a
little different coloration (newer looking) that COULD suggest they were
changed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
            The
second VARNEY version I have has NO hood extension over the headlight
like the first version. (I can't tell if altered as I had painted this
item.). Again NO blind drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
The BOWSER 4-6-0  pictured in the Greenberg book states it is a
BOWSER version. It HAS the hood extension and DOES have blind drivers for
the middle set.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                             
How conclusive this is I can't say. Hopefully a number of others will
send in information .
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
             

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10065
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: unknown boxcar roof
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    when rummaging in my boxes I found a cast boxcar roof which I got with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
some incomplete (metal) Athearn cars... it had desintegrated from 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
fatigue, I have  glued it together then to avoid losing  components.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Any idea what type of car this might have been?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10066
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: unknown boxcar roof [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold,

                                                                                                                                                                                    Looks to be from an MDC metal cattle car. I got a couple of these cars myself.

                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Sun, 4/26/09, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] unknown boxcar roof [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Sunday, April 26, 2009, 1:08 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    






    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    when rummaging in my boxes I found a cast boxcar roof which I got with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
some incomplete (metal) Athearn cars... it had desintegrated from 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
fatigue, I have  glued it together then to avoid losing  components.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Any idea what type of car this might have been?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10067
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: unknown boxcar roof
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I believe it is Model Die Casting / Roundhouse, both from its appearance and construction, plus the fact that many have disintegrated!  I have one of their diecast, simulated wood DL&W boxcar kits in my collection and will check it out and get back to you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The instructions on HOSeeker show the steel roof model, but you can see many of the same characteristics such as integral upper door guides, mounting "nibs" on the underside, etc. ; all same except that a different exterior surface (wood) is modeled on your example.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.hoseeker.org/mdcinstructionscars/rhb100boxcar.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > when rummaging in my boxes I found a cast boxcar roof which I got with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > some incomplete (metal) Athearn cars... it had desintegrated from 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > fatigue, I have glued it together then to avoid losing components. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Any idea what type of car this might have been?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10068
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Headlight Varney 4-6-0-Jim, et.al.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    What annoys me relates to the prototype headlamps.  I've seen
a
number of real locomotive headlights and none had tilted fronts.  So
the slope in the model bugs me.  I'm sure some of these, "rivet
counting," details are lost to the veil of time, but I find it
fascinating to try to figure things out. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Have checked my SP prototype files... most but not all steam locos have
a hooded headlight, think thats a Pyle type. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
here a link to an illustration in the Walthers catalog: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/190-331
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10069
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: unknown boxcar roof
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Stephen Neubaum wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Looks to be from an MDC metal cattle car. I got a couple of these cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> myself.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Stephen,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10070
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: unknown boxcar roof
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold, This IS an MDC Roundhouse Models roof.  It is SPECIFICALLY made for going with the B-501 through B-504 Wood Sheathed Box Cars, and NOTHING ELSE.  You could use it for other 40' cars if you needed to (if you had one in better condition) as it will fit, but did not come with any other cars.  If anyone has this roof in a kit other than these Wood Sheathed Box Cars, someone switched or replaced the original roof -- possibly as a result of the same problem you have with this one. Ray FW
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> when rummaging in my boxes I found a cast boxcar roof which I got with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> some incomplete (metal) Athearn cars... it had desintegrated from 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> fatigue, I have  glued it together then to avoid losing  components.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Any idea what type of car this might have been?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10071
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: "unknown" FT's
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank You Jim H!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Your cast bronze FT A & B units and mine are seemingly cast from the same molds. They match to the configuration of side panels and cast on features. They are not lightweights, either, I just weighed my pair of shells and they total two pounds of bronze.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
As I said, mine have two small holes drilled, centered in each front winshield panel, but they have not been opened up a bit as yours.  But my portholes have been opened by drilling with a smaller drill, the modeler stopped short of reaming the holes to exacat size. Also, each of the four lower steps on the A unit and the six lower steps on my B unit have also been drilled, pending someone arduously applying jeweler's saw and file to square them up. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I will also use your "unknown, but possibly GARCO" ID for now as well.  As I mentioned before and confirmed what someone else told you, "They are not Beeman" by comparing it to the Beeman photo ad in MR I mentioned last time. They also do not appear to be the DMC models shown in the Dallas Modelcraft ads, either, as for example in the August, 1947 MR ad photo.  The DMC FT's have rooftop detail that appears to be integrally cast with the shells.  Of course, there is always the possibility ours and or the GARCO could be earlier versions, too.  I'll throw one more name out there: they also do not appear to be Cambron EMC Freight units, as the Cambron units show much rooftop detail including four small exhaust openings and two raised, round exhaust fan grills on each short unit (October 1947 MR ad.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
So for now, "unknown, but possibly GARCO."
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I agree about Adams being signifigant to the hobby; it is not unusual for a manufacturer to support the efforts of those having the ideas and possibly some capital and sales capabilities but not the manufacturing or casting experience, like Garrett.  While Varney had their own design team, they would still in modern terms, outsource much of the production of parts like castings.  Companies like Adams might assist in the work, in some cases retaining rights to the later production, molds or tools.  Northeastern had that arrangement with Ambroid for those wood 1 of 5,000 kits, and today, a resin kit maker like Funaro & Camerlengo also maintains that practice, later selling kits once initiated and sold by others.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
As another sample of Adams influence in the hobby, this interesting ad appeared in the October 1947 MR,p. 842: "At the convention: Your good fellowship and many compliments have inspired us to even greater quality poduct.  Adams & Son, Model Foundry, Wichita 15, Kansas." 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks for the compliment, Jim, American History was my second major in school, I enjoy research and mixing the two likes with a hobby I enjoy has been fun, especially when I can make a small contribution.  In my short time here, I have learned much from you and many who have contributed with their many posts and photos. It has made our corner of the hobby even more enjoyable, even while I find out how much I still don't know!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   W Jay W, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         Here are pictures of the "unknown (but I think GARCO) cast brass FT  A&B I have. Hopefully taken from different angles you will be able to compare. When looking at the bottom of the A unit you will see a brass piece has been ADDED, front and back. Who ever owned these before had started to do something with them. There's a handmade brass frame in the box they came in that would fit on theses added supports. also you will see that a couple of the ladders have been filed down closer to size.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        I'm really glad you found something out about Theo. Parker being a distributor for GARCO products. I still believe Adams and Son not just the casters of parts but a major backer of Garco and/or Dallas Model Craft. While it remains to be totally verified right now everything points to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        On an entirely different note I want to tell you that every time I see an Email from you I am totally amazed. The research time, going back into all the messages on site, information from train books, recall of past conversations, etc. is outstanding. Then to put it all together without mistakes and in a form very easy to understand when sent. I wish I was that good.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        Again a good site draws good people.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10072
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Varney 4-6-0 Headlight
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            You 
asked two questions I will answer from my collection pieces only.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      Does my 4-6-0 with the pitched head 
light with NO hood have a bulb     YES
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      Is it factory 
painted.          Can't answer this 
for sure. I have repainted this engine to Reading. I normally don't 
repaint factory painted items but this could have been done a while ago (20 
years) when I was in kind of a paint frenzy and before I became a "pure" 
vintage collector.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                While 
I can't be sure, everything about this engine suggest (by detail and such) that 
it was one of the "Screwdriver Kits" These were shake the box kits that you 
could assembly with a screwdriver. They were factory painted. I believe this was 
at one time a factory painted screwdriver kit item.  So a 95% YES to 
your second question
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Keep digging. You never know where it might go.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10073
						From: nathan.stackhouse
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Headlight Varney 4-6-0-Jim, et.al.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I am a new member of the group and have enjoyed  the knowledge I have
                                                                                                                                                                                    
gained since joining.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
My parents started me in HO with a Docside powered layout for Christmas
                                                                                                                                                                                    
1946. I have been a Varney fan since then.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have five "Casey Jones" and six "Old Ladies" plus one Bowser "Old
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Lady". They are both first production models, cast whistle and relief
                                                                                                                                                                                    
valves, and second production, brass whistle and relief valves. The
                                                                                                                                                                                    
second production items have what IMO is a casting error in the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
headlight hood. The left side is thinner or missing on some. Some pained
                                                                                                                                                                                    
items have the hood missing altogether. Perhaps filed off before being
                                                                                                                                                                                    
painted. All engines have provisions for bulbs so I do not believe this
                                                                                                                                                                                    
was a modification during production. This is why I belive a casting
                                                                                                                                                                                    
error as the dies got older and cost would not allow a die clean up.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Viewed from the front the first production items are even all the why
                                                                                                                                                                                    
around. Some. later?, second  production items are thin or missing on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the top left side.  Sorry no digital camera to provide pictures.  Just
                                                                                                                                                                                    
my humble views.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nate S
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10074
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: "unknown" FT's
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Just a few quick answers. Yes 
the brass/bronze FT's we are talking about are very heavy. We have to come up 
with a word that can be used for unknown make up of Brass or Bronze, and 
anything in between, to describe some of these cast metals. (Branze, 
Bross)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         As for DMC (Dallas Model 
Craft). Go to my album  Jim Heckard's Photos (the one with 117 pics) Go to 
JH067 and JH069 his is the DMC FT "B" Unit and a  friend has the A. Not 
even close to these. Not Cambron either.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         While some people are good 
enough to produce their own molds or until I find out different I will say sold 
by GARCO made by Adams & Sons. (But won't bet the farm on 
it)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 3:32 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: "unknown" 
  FT's
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank You Jim H!

                                                                                                                                                                                    Your cast bronze FT A & B units and mine are 
  seemingly cast from the same molds. They match to the configuration of side 
  panels and cast on features. They are not lightweights, either, I just weighed 
  my pair of shells and they total two pounds of bronze.

                                                                                                                                                                                    As I said, mine 
  have two small holes drilled, centered in each front winshield panel, but they 
  have not been opened up a bit as yours. But my portholes have been opened by 
  drilling with a smaller drill, the modeler stopped short of reaming the holes 
  to exacat size. Also, each of the four lower steps on the A unit and the six 
  lower steps on my B unit have also been drilled, pending someone arduously 
  applying jeweler's saw and file to square them up. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I will also use 
  your "unknown, but possibly GARCO" ID for now as well. As I mentioned before 
  and confirmed what someone else told you, "They are not Beeman" by comparing 
  it to the Beeman photo ad in MR I mentioned last time. They also do not appear 
  to be the DMC models shown in the Dallas Modelcraft ads, either, as for 
  example in the August, 1947 MR ad photo. The DMC FT's have rooftop detail that 
  appears to be integrally cast with the shells. Of course, there is always the 
  possibility ours and or the GARCO could be earlier versions, too. I'll throw 
  one more name out there: they also do not appear to be Cambron EMC Freight 
  units, as the Cambron units show much rooftop detail including four small 
  exhaust openings and two raised, round exhaust fan grills on each short unit 
  (October 1947 MR ad.)

                                                                                                                                                                                    So for now, "unknown, but possibly 
  GARCO."

                                                                                                                                                                                    I agree about Adams being signifigant to the hobby; it is not 
  unusual for a manufacturer to support the efforts of those having the ideas 
  and possibly some capital and sales capabilities but not the manufacturing or 
  casting experience, like Garrett. While Varney had their own design team, they 
  would still in modern terms, outsource much of the production of parts like 
  castings. Companies like Adams might assist in the work, in some cases 
  retaining rights to the later production, molds or tools. Northeastern had 
  that arrangement with Ambroid for those wood 1 of 5,000 kits, and today, a 
  resin kit maker like Funaro & Camerlengo also maintains that practice, 
  later selling kits once initiated and sold by others.

                                                                                                                                                                                    As another sample 
  of Adams influence in the hobby, this interesting ad appeared in the October 
  1947 MR,p. 842: "At the convention: Your good fellowship and many compliments 
  have inspired us to even greater quality poduct. Adams & Son, Model 
  Foundry, Wichita 15, Kansas." 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the compliment, Jim, American 
  History was my second major in school, I enjoy research and mixing the two 
  likes with a hobby I enjoy has been fun, especially when I can make a small 
  contribution. In my short time here, I have learned much from you and many who 
  have contributed with their many posts and photos. It has made our corner of 
  the hobby even more enjoyable, even while I find out how much I still don't 
  know!

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay W, 
  All
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Here are pictures of the "unknown (but I think GARCO) 
  cast brass FT A&B I have. Hopefully taken from different angles you will 
  be able to compare. When looking at the bottom of the A unit you will see a 
  brass piece has been ADDED, front and back. Who ever owned these before had 
  started to do something with them. There's a handmade brass frame in the box 
  they came in that would fit on theses added supports. also you will see that a 
  couple of the ladders have been filed down closer to size.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  I'm really glad you found something out about Theo. Parker being a distributor 
  for GARCO products. I still believe Adams and Son not just the casters of 
  parts but a major backer of Garco and/or Dallas Model Craft. While it remains 
  to be totally verified right now everything points to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > On 
  an entirely different note I want to tell you that every time I see an Email 
  from you I am totally amazed. The research time, going back into all the 
  messages on site, information from train books, recall of past conversations, 
  etc. is outstanding. Then to put it all together without mistakes and in a 
  form very easy to understand when sent. I wish I was that good.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Again a good site draws good people.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10075
						From: solly_46
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Wanted  athearn f7a gear for truck
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I beleive I have an older Athearn that has one bad gear on the rear truck bad gear. Older f7a with metal sides on the truck. screw holds truck have pictures if someone may have gear available
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks,Randy - please email offline
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10076
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: "unknown" FT's
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    A thought comes to mind regarding the variations to these models, if they 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
were "Sand Cast", there IS no "mold"   The "molds" (or cores to use the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
proper term) are created out of sand one at a time from an original pattern. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
That pattern could be anything, a common practice is building or carving the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
original pattern out of wood.  It is a LOT easier to modify a wooden pattern 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
than a steel die, so variations very well could have been made quite easily 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
over the production run of a model.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 4:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: "unknown" FT's
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Just a few quick answers. Yes the brass/bronze FT's we are talking about 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
are very heavy. We have to come up with a word that can be used for unknown 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
make up of Brass or Bronze, and anything in between, to describe some of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
these cast metals. (Branze, Bross)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
     As for DMC (Dallas Model Craft). Go to my album  Jim Heckard's Photos 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(the one with 117 pics) Go to JH067 and JH069 his is the DMC FT "B" Unit and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a  friend has the A. Not even close to these. Not Cambron either.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
     While some people are good enough to produce their own molds or until I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
find out different I will say sold by GARCO made by Adams & Sons. (But won't 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
bet the farm on it)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                          Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10077
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: "unknown" FT's
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Don D.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Old enough to remember when we made sand castings in our shop classes, I mean "Industrial Arts" we all took in what they call middle school now!  "Pop" Frolich was our shop teacher for 6-7-8th grades and he ran it like a real shop, everything except punching a time clock.  It was a valuable learning experience, though, from learing how to properly use hand and machine tools, to mechanical drawing and yes, sand casting using patterns and simple metal casting from a two part mold.  Over forty years later, I still think some of those lead deep sea fishing sinkers we cast from melted down slugs we "mined" in the local sandpit target range are still around!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> A thought comes to mind regarding the variations to these models, if they 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> were "Sand Cast", there IS no "mold"   The "molds" (or cores to use the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> proper term) are created out of sand one at a time from an original pattern. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> That pattern could be anything, a common practice is building or carving the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> original pattern out of wood.  It is a LOT easier to modify a wooden pattern 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> than a steel die, so variations very well could have been made quite easily 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> over the production run of a model.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 4:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: "unknown" FT's
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Just a few quick answers. Yes the brass/bronze FT's we are talking about 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> are very heavy. We have to come up with a word that can be used for unknown 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> make up of Brass or Bronze, and anything in between, to describe some of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> these cast metals. (Branze, Bross)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      As for DMC (Dallas Model Craft). Go to my album  Jim Heckard's Photos 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (the one with 117 pics) Go to JH067 and JH069 his is the DMC FT "B" Unit and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> a  friend has the A. Not even close to these. Not Cambron either.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      While some people are good enough to produce their own molds or until I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> find out different I will say sold by GARCO made by Adams & Sons. (But won't 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> bet the farm on it)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                           Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10078
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: unknown boxcar roof
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray,

                                                                                                                                                                                    What is the difference between this and the stock car roof then? My stockcars both have this kind of roof. I don't doubt what you say- I don't have a lot of MDC and am only going on what I have in my collection, and both cars are in a box somewhere. But it also makes me beg the question: This kind of roof is appropriate for a stock car- boxcars usually had panel roofs. I have some O Scale Westbrook stockcars with this design, as well as Lionel's cattle car with same kind of design.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Was it common too, to swap roofs then to suit a particular prototype?

                                                                                                                                                                                    My curiousity is certainly piqued at this point!

                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Sun, 4/26/09, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: erieberk
 <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: unknown boxcar roof
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Sunday, April 26, 2009, 1:52 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    






    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold, This IS an MDC Roundhouse Models roof.  It is SPECIFICALLY made for going with the B-501 through B-504 Wood Sheathed Box Cars, and NOTHING ELSE.  You could use it for other 40' cars if you needed to (if you had one in better condition) as it will fit, but did not come with any other cars.  If anyone has this roof in a kit other than these Wood Sheathed Box Cars, someone switched or replaced the original roof -- possibly as a result of the same problem you have with this one. Ray FW
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> when rummaging in my boxes I found a cast boxcar roof which I got with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> some incomplete (metal) Athearn cars... it had desintegrated from 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> fatigue, I have  glued it together then to avoid losing  components.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Any idea what type of car this might have been?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10079
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    >OK.  I know some of you have Greenberg's Varney book and refer to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>it.  That tells me you consider it pretty accurate from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>continuing references I read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    What is a fair price for one of these?  I saw one a while back for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
around $50.00 and I'm wondering if my having one is worth the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
expense.  Most of my interest is in locomotives - rolling stock secondary.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Varney IS my primary HO interest at this time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10080
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: "unknown" FT's
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H,  and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Well Jim, if you won't yet bet the farm, you may be inclined to at least consider the mortgage rates!  Late this afternoon I grabbed my models and old magazines and sat out in the hot shade and went though everything again, step by step.  I found the Harry J. Garrett & Co. full-page ad I had dimly remembered, in the last issue I had in the small stack, the December 1947, Model Railroader, page 970. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The full page ad has four illustrations together with listings for all the various model railroad products Garrett & Co. distributed like Mantua, Varney, Atlas, etc. The first photo is of the familiar switcher, "GARCO's HO Baldwin-Westighouse 1000 H.P. Diesel Switcher  $29.95"; it is the same parts photo that appears in the GARCO literature you have previously provided to HO Seeker. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The second photo is of the GARCO FT A unit, but identified as the "GARCO'S F2 Diesel, $19.95, $29.95, $31.95 $40.95" displayed in exactly the same way as the Baldwin switcher: body casting, drive trucks, sideframes, motor, packet of small parts, legnths of wire for handrails and floor.  Also shown is what looks like a "U shaped" fuel tank casting for fitting under the unit. No explaination of the different prices, probably a combination of different drives and A & B units. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    These photos are small, 1-1/4" x 1-3/4", so while fairly clear, it is difficult to see details other than general shapes.  The roof of the A unit is smooth like ours, but there is the addition of the rectangular dynamic brake grids that are a characteristic of the prototype FT and other model FT's, but missing from our castings.  However, because of shadows, it could be a seperate casting laid on the roof.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    We still can not be sure until we find a boxed GARCO "F2"/FT kit to examine, or even a better photo, but it looks closer than any other FT I have seen, so your "sold by GARCO made by Adams & Sons" is the best we can do based on all the evidence we have.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The other photos in the ad? The third photo is of the "HO Vanderbuilt Tender Casting Set $5.95" that you and Ray F. W. discussed previously, but no name: Garco, Varney or Adams, but clearly the same kit, no metal type given.  The fourth photo is of unidentified brand, "O Ga. EMC Freight Diesel Bronze Casting set, $27.50" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    So, this search and exchange of information has been fun, and led me to the same conclusion as you.  I hope that someone turns up a boxed kit and proves us correct, or we will then have to start with new theories!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    BTW, I had seen the DMC-Dallas Model Craft FT in your album, and remeber thinking at the time "that does not look familiar" and went beyond, still looking for one like mine. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Just a few quick answers. Yes the brass/bronze FT's we are talking about are very heavy. We have to come up with a word that can be used for unknown make up of Brass or Bronze, and anything in between, to describe some of these cast metals. (Branze, Bross)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As for DMC (Dallas Model Craft). Go to my album Jim Heckard's Photos (the one with 117 pics) Go to JH067 and JH069 his is the DMC FT "B" Unit and a friend has the A. Not even close to these. Not Cambron either.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > While some people are good enough to produce their own molds or until I find out different I will say sold by GARCO made by Adams & Sons. (But won't bet the farm on it)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 3:32 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: "unknown" FT's
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Thank You Jim H!
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Your cast bronze FT A & B units and mine are seemingly cast from the same molds. They match to the configuration of side panels and cast on features. They are not lightweights, either, I just weighed my pair of shells and they total two pounds of bronze.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As I said, mine have two small holes drilled, centered in each front winshield panel, but they have not been opened up a bit as yours. But my portholes have been opened by drilling with a smaller drill, the modeler stopped short of reaming the holes to exacat size. Also, each of the four lower steps on the A unit and the six lower steps on my B unit have also been drilled, pending someone arduously applying jeweler's saw and file to square them up. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I will also use your "unknown, but possibly GARCO" ID for now as well. As I mentioned before and confirmed what someone else told you, "They are not Beeman" by comparing it to the Beeman photo ad in MR I mentioned last time. They also do not appear to be the DMC models shown in the Dallas Modelcraft ads, either, as for example in the August, 1947 MR ad photo. The DMC FT's have rooftop detail that appears to be integrally cast with the shells. Of course, there is always the possibility ours and or the GARCO could be earlier versions, too. I'll throw one more name out there: they also do not appear to be Cambron EMC Freight units, as the Cambron units show much rooftop detail including four small exhaust openings and two raised, round exhaust fan grills on each short unit (October 1947 MR ad.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > So for now, "unknown, but possibly GARCO."
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I agree about Adams being signifigant to the hobby; it is not unusual for a manufacturer to support the efforts of those having the ideas and possibly some capital and sales capabilities but not the manufacturing or casting experience, like Garrett. While Varney had their own design team, they would still in modern terms, outsource much of the production of parts like castings. Companies like Adams might assist in the work, in some cases retaining rights to the later production, molds or tools. Northeastern had that arrangement with Ambroid for those wood 1 of 5,000 kits, and today, a resin kit maker like Funaro & Camerlengo also maintains that practice, later selling kits once initiated and sold by others.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As another sample of Adams influence in the hobby, this interesting ad appeared in the October 1947 MR,p. 842: "At the convention: Your good fellowship and many compliments have inspired us to even greater quality poduct. Adams & Son, Model Foundry, Wichita 15, Kansas." 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Thanks for the compliment, Jim, American History was my second major in school, I enjoy research and mixing the two likes with a hobby I enjoy has been fun, especially when I can make a small contribution. In my short time here, I have learned much from you and many who have contributed with their many posts and photos. It has made our corner of the hobby even more enjoyable, even while I find out how much I still don't know!
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" jimheck@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > W Jay W, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Here are pictures of the "unknown (but I think GARCO) cast brass FT A&B I have. Hopefully taken from different angles you will be able to compare. When looking at the bottom of the A unit you will see a brass piece has been ADDED, front and back. Who ever owned these before had started to do something with them. There's a handmade brass frame in the box they came in that would fit on theses added supports. also you will see that a couple of the ladders have been filed down closer to size.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I'm really glad you found something out about Theo. Parker being a distributor for GARCO products. I still believe Adams and Son not just the casters of parts but a major backer of Garco and/or Dallas Model Craft. While it remains to be totally verified right now everything points to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > On an entirely different note I want to tell you that every time I see an Email from you I am totally amazed. The research time, going back into all the messages on site, information from train books, recall of past conversations, etc. is outstanding. Then to put it all together without mistakes and in a form very easy to understand when sent. I wish I was that good.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Again a good site draws good people.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10081
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dennis T.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I bought my copy about five years ago when I finally wanted to know more; I too, was put off by the high price, but with a bit of patience, I found a new copy in the thirty five range, a "buy it now" that was just listed!  But instead of "just a Varney Guide", a well illustrated catalog of the locomotives and models, I really received much more in an understanding of the early to middle years of the whole model industry, plus the innovative and imaginative ways Varney kept ahead of the pack for so long, why he made the models he did, and the ways he produced them.  It also helped me understand Walthers, Athearn and the rest, and put them all in perspective by seeing what Varney was doing. My only regret is that it was all packed into just one volume! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Interestingly, I was not much of a Varney fan before I had the Guide, as by the time I began model railroading, Kramer's dollar RTR cars were the rule.  Now, of the larger firms products in my collection, Varney is high on my list. And Gordon Varney is probably one of the two HO pioneers from the earliest day's in the 1930's and early 1940's I would have liked to meet most. Even if you buy it at first for the locomotive information, you will probably be pulled in by the rest, including the first two chapters which cover model development as well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
That's a "worth it" but shop around. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >OK.  I know some of you have Greenberg's Varney book and refer to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >it.  That tells me you consider it pretty accurate from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >continuing references I read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> What is a fair price for one of these?  I saw one a while back for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> around $50.00 and I'm wondering if my having one is worth the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> expense.  Most of my interest is in locomotives - rolling stock secondary.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Varney IS my primary HO interest at this time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10082
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: T. O. T.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            Bet the 
name T.O.T. in the subject caught your eye. These are pictures of "Trains Of 
Tomorrow"  that were produced in the mid 50's. One by Varney, one by 
Mantua. Both are plastic but then the similarities end.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            Pictures 
1, 2,and 3 are of the Varney Aero Train produced 1956-59. The pictures I am 
sending have the original drive in the engine and the cars are original too. 
(Not Bowser, nor any Kemtron improvements added). My engine runs very nice but a 
lot of people didn't like it and changed to the Kemtron drive. The 3 passenger 
cars ( came in my set #20 ) run poor because they are to light. You can add or 
subtract cars since each is individual. Again Kemtron modifications can be 
added.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
Pictures 4, 5, 6 and 7  are the Mantua TALGO train. Made in 1957 to counter 
the Varney Aero Train. The engine has the Mantua drive in it. Runs nice also. 
The 3 cars are ARTICULATED and heavier then the Aero Train. They track much 
better because of this and have factory lighting.You have factory painted 
versions ( I know of 2 styles ) or you could buy a kit. My example is a kit 
that I painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              Probably more 
attempts by others to produce T.O.T ( HO ) but these are the most popular, 
vintage and collectable.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10083
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               I recommend 
having any of the Greenberg HO guides including Varney, Athearn and Lionel. The 
people who took the time to gather and write down the information did a great 
job. There will always be things that change or show up which may alter some 
facts but a must for a serious collector. Remember the Varney book 
published around 1986.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       As to price, if I'm not mistaken I 
paid $39.95 originally for my mint copy. It was bought from Dave Spanagel, the 
author. One neat thing about my copy is it is addressed personally to me and 
signed by Mr.Spanagel.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       I would also like to recommend  
Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicons, Volumes I & II. Again published a while back 
with some flaws in information but still an excellent source of information 
for most vintage HO engines, even brass.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      So I recommend, if you can afford it, to get 
the Greenberg Varney Guide if only for the engines. An added point is that the 
Varney Steam engine pictures in the book, for the most part, are from the 
collection of Dr Joe Weber. He lives 6 miles away and I have viewed his large 
collection of vintage HO, OO, S, O and larger gauge trains. A real treat to 
see but I don't think he shows them anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 8:38 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Greenberg's Guide to 
  Varney Trains question
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    >OK. I know some of you have Greenberg's Varney book and refer to 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >it. That tells me you consider it pretty accurate from the 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >continuing references I read.

                                                                                                                                                                                    What is a fair price for one of 
  these? I saw one a while back for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    around $50.00 and I'm wondering if my 
  having one is worth the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    expense. Most of my interest is in locomotives - 
  rolling stock secondary.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Varney IS my primary HO interest at this 
  time.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10084
						From: trainliker
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The Varney is actually GM's "Aerotrain" which is a different animal from GM's Train of Tomorrow.  I don't know what Mantua called theirs, but it is clearly patterned more after the Aerotrain.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A little off topic:  For Train of Tomorrow fans, there is a new and excellent book "The Train of Tomorrow" by Ric Morgan.  It has a lot of photographs of the spectacular large scale models that were originally built before the real train was built.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         Bet the name T.O.T. in the subject caught your eye. These are pictures of "Trains Of Tomorrow"  that were produced in the mid 50's. One by Varney, one by Mantua. Both are plastic but then the similarities end.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         Pictures 1, 2,and 3 are of the Varney Aero Train produced 1956-59. The pictures I am sending have the original drive in the engine and the cars are original too. (Not Bowser, nor any Kemtron improvements added). My engine runs very nice but a lot of people didn't like it and changed to the Kemtron drive. The 3 passenger cars ( came in my set #20 ) run poor because they are to light. You can add or subtract cars since each is individual. Again Kemtron modifications can be added.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          Pictures 4, 5, 6 and 7  are the Mantua TALGO train. Made in 1957 to counter the Varney Aero Train. The engine has the Mantua drive in it. Runs nice also. The 3 cars are ARTICULATED and heavier then the Aero Train. They track much better because of this and have factory lighting.You have factory painted versions ( I know of 2 styles ) or you could buy a kit. My example is a kit that I painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           Probably more attempts by others to produce T.O.T ( HO ) but these are the most popular, vintage and collectable.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                   Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10085
						From: trainliker
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The Varney Guide is very well done.  Also, a supplement was, and probably still is, available from the author Spanagel.  It includes the "Lil Raskel Wreck Proof Train" which is an interesting HO item.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Also, did you know that Varney also made a wood (with some plastic parts) PT boat kit that was about two feet long?  I used to have a couple of them.  And they also made a submarine although I have never seen one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            I recommend having any of the Greenberg HO guides including Varney, Athearn and Lionel. The people who took the time to gather and write down the information did a great job. There will always be things that change or show up which may alter some facts but a must for a serious collector. Remember the Varney book published around 1986.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    As to price, if I'm not mistaken I paid $39.95 originally for my mint copy. It was bought from Dave Spanagel, the author. One neat thing about my copy is it is addressed personally to me and signed by Mr.Spanagel.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    I would also like to recommend  Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicons, Volumes I & II. Again published a while back with some flaws in information but still an excellent source of information for most vintage HO engines, even brass.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   So I recommend, if you can afford it, to get the Greenberg Varney Guide if only for the engines. An added point is that the Varney Steam engine pictures in the book, for the most part, are from the collection of Dr Joe Weber. He lives 6 miles away and I have viewed his large collection of vintage HO, OO, S, O and larger gauge trains. A real treat to see but I don't think he shows them anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: Dennis Thompson 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 8:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >OK. I know some of you have Greenberg's Varney book and refer to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >it. That tells me you consider it pretty accurate from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >continuing references I read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   What is a fair price for one of these? I saw one a while back for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   around $50.00 and I'm wondering if my having one is worth the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   expense. Most of my interest is in locomotives - rolling stock secondary.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Varney IS my primary HO interest at this time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10086
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                           
Varney used the Aerotrain name and sold it as "The Train of Tomorrow" 
(not my words). Talking about the HO item not the real thing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  trainliker 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 10:05 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: T. O. T.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    The Varney is actually GM's "Aerotrain" which is a different animal from 
  GM's Train of Tomorrow. I don't know what Mantua called theirs, but it is 
  clearly patterned more after the Aerotrain.

                                                                                                                                                                                    A little off topic: For 
  Train of Tomorrow fans, there is a new and excellent book "The Train of 
  Tomorrow" by Ric Morgan. It has a lot of photographs of the spectacular large 
  scale models that were originally built before the real train was 
  built.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Bet the name T.O.T. in the subject caught your eye. These are 
  pictures of "Trains Of Tomorrow" that were produced in the mid 50's. One by 
  Varney, one by Mantua. Both are plastic but then the similarities end.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Pictures 1, 2,and 3 are of the Varney Aero Train produced 1956-59. 
  The pictures I am sending have the original drive in the engine and the cars 
  are original too. (Not Bowser, nor any Kemtron improvements added). My engine 
  runs very nice but a lot of people didn't like it and changed to the Kemtron 
  drive. The 3 passenger cars ( came in my set #20 ) run poor because they are 
  to light. You can add or subtract cars since each is individual. Again Kemtron 
  modifications can be added.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Pictures 4, 5, 6 and 7 are the 
  Mantua TALGO train. Made in 1957 to counter the Varney Aero Train. The engine 
  has the Mantua drive in it. Runs nice also. The 3 cars are ARTICULATED and 
  heavier then the Aero Train. They track much better because of this and have 
  factory lighting.You have factory painted versions ( I know of 2 styles ) or 
  you could buy a kit. My example is a kit that I painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Probably more attempts by others to produce T.O.T ( HO ) but these 
  are the most popular, vintage and collectable.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10087
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                        Chuck K,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              There have been 
a NUMBER of supplements to the Greenberg Varney Guide as new information or 
Varney products became known. As a member of the HO Scale Collectors & 
History - SIG group Dave Spanagel would include these supplements as part of our 
newsletter "The Reporting Mark"
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  trainliker 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 10:11 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Greenberg's 
  Guide to Varney Trains question
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    The Varney Guide is very well done. Also, a supplement was, and probably 
  still is, available from the author Spanagel. It includes the "Lil Raskel 
  Wreck Proof Train" which is an interesting HO item.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Also, did you know 
  that Varney also made a wood (with some plastic parts) PT boat kit that was 
  about two feet long? I used to have a couple of them. And they also made a 
  submarine although I have never seen one.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I recommend having any of the Greenberg HO guides including Varney, 
  Athearn and Lionel. The people who took the time to gather and write down the 
  information did a great job. There will always be things that change or show 
  up which may alter some facts but a must for a serious collector. Remember the 
  Varney book published around 1986.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > As to price, if I'm not 
  mistaken I paid $39.95 originally for my mint copy. It was bought from Dave 
  Spanagel, the author. One neat thing about my copy is it is addressed 
  personally to me and signed by Mr.Spanagel.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I would also like 
  to recommend Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicons, Volumes I & II. Again 
  published a while back with some flaws in information but still an excellent 
  source of information for most vintage HO engines, even brass.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > So I recommend, if you can afford it, to get the Greenberg Varney 
  Guide if only for the engines. An added point is that the Varney Steam engine 
  pictures in the book, for the most part, are from the collection of Dr Joe 
  Weber. He lives 6 miles away and I have viewed his large collection of vintage 
  HO, OO, S, O and larger gauge trains. A real treat to see but I don't think he 
  shows them anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message 
  ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: Dennis Thompson 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 8:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >OK. I know some of you have Greenberg's Varney 
  book and refer to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >it. That tells me you consider it pretty 
  accurate from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >continuing references I read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  What is a fair price for one of these? I saw one a while back for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  around $50.00 and I'm wondering if my having one is worth the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  expense. Most of my interest is in locomotives - rolling stock 
  secondary.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Varney IS my primary HO interest at this 
  time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10088
						From: Earl Poulsen
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Wanted  athearn f7a gear for truck
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I would like to have a picture to what the gear looks like. I think I have a gear from others in this group.  Now is my turn to give back.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Earl Poulsen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Vancouver, WA
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
LAT 45 degrees, 40 minutes, 6 seconds X LONG Minus 122 degrees, 39 minutes and 46 seconds
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10089
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T. [7 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have an 8-car Aerotrain--that's how many Kemtron 
truck sets I had--2 locos--one the Kemtron, the other cobbled up from an Athearn 
SW-1000 drive.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Cars have bluish X-ray film in the windows, plus 
floors and weight.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    When the "Train of Tomorrow" title came up, I was 
actually expecting that someone had actually modeled that GM demo train from 
1947.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] T. O. T. [7 
  Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            Bet 
  the name T.O.T. in the subject caught your eye. These are pictures of "Trains 
  Of Tomorrow"  that were produced in the mid 50's. One by Varney, one by 
  Mantua. Both are plastic but then the similarities end.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10090
						From: solly_46
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Wanted  athearn f7a gear for truck
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Earl Poulsen <shyguy_98665@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I would like to have a picture to what the gear looks like. I think I have a gear from others in this group.  Now is my turn to give back.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Earl Poulsen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Vancouver, WA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> LAT 45 degrees, 40 minutes, 6 seconds X LONG Minus 122 degrees, 39 minutes and 46 seconds
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I have added photos  sww Photos Athearn F7A Need Gear
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10091
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Varney Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    All,  I purchased a Varney Aerotrain unpowered locomotive at Polk's in NYC in the later 1960's, think it was 89 cents. He had a whole basket of them.  I finally found an assembled observation at a train show junk box about ten years ago that was painted bright red all over with a barn brush, but it cleaned up looking new, that inspired me, before I found eBay, to get a few car body castings from Bowser and a power frame, but that is as far as the project proceeded.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Why? I spotted a stack of about 5 or 6 familiar looking boxes at a large train show several years back, reached over and opened one up, some were unpainted some factory paint that had been removed, but what caught my eye was the glint of those "gold" nuggets - the Kemtron brass sideframes that Glenn J. mentioned - in every box, plus the locomotive had the Kemtron deluxe drive with brass sideframes as well. Total cars, some doubled up in the boxes: a full consist of nine (as used on the PRR) plus the locomotive, and the deal was very good. So good someone was trying to take them out of my hands before I found the seller! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
So now I have examples of both original and "Kemtronized".  I like having some of my vintage locomotives equipped with vintage options that were made for them at the time they were new, and then am able to display the original alongside them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
FYI, Bowser also sells/sold the Varney rigid plastic "diaphrams" that fit between the cars, used for display only, as the cars can not round a curved track with them in place. Think there were listed in the parts/price list, but not shown on the diagrams. Makes a nice display option though.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have an 8-car Aerotrain--that's how many Kemtron truck sets I had--2 locos--one the Kemtron, the other cobbled up from an Athearn SW-1000 drive.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Cars have bluish X-ray film in the windows, plus floors and weight.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> When the "Train of Tomorrow" title came up, I was actually expecting that someone had actually modeled that GM demo train from 1947.  gj 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10092
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Important to remember
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                       All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              I must add 
something I feel is very important to remember as it pertains to pictures and 
write ups I send of vintage HO trains. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I have no control over how 
vintage manufacturers labeled some of the HO they sold. Take for example the 
Varney "Casey Jones". Not a copy of the real thing. Switchers labeled wrong by 
the company who made them like SW-7 vs. NW-2. E units 2-6 or GP-7 vs GP-9 
for others. (Oh by the way I don't know the differences)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
The style,classification, designation might not be in line with the real 
thing. I had / have no control over how the products of these manufacturers of 
vintage HO items labeled them. My write-ups contain only what the HO company 
called them not what the full life size item is.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks for your 
time and understanding.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10093
						From: trainliker
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T. [7 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Somebody did actually model the Train of Tomorrow.  Maybe about 10 years ago or so?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
It was made by Challenger Imports for the Whistle Stop of Pasadena.  They made 50 sets painted in the bluish-green color.  It did not include the E7 diesel, but did include stainless steel appliques for it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.thewhistlestop.com/catalog/gmtot.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I bought a set used which included a matching painted E7 in the same large box as the four cars like it came that way.  So maybe it was possible to buy it with the engine somehow.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Challenger imports also made some in the Union Pacific paint scheme (don't know how many) which is prototypical because that's where the original train went and it was repainted.  One car survives and last I knew it was under the auspices of the Ogden Union Station operation(Utah).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have an 8-car Aerotrain--that's how many Kemtron truck sets I had--2 locos--one the Kemtron, the other cobbled up from an Athearn SW-1000 drive.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Cars have bluish X-ray film in the windows, plus floors and weight.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> When the "Train of Tomorrow" title came up, I was actually expecting that someone had actually modeled that GM demo train from 1947.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] T. O. T. [7 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           Bet the name T.O.T. in the subject caught your eye. These are pictures of "Trains Of Tomorrow"  that were produced in the mid 50's. One by Varney, one by Mantua. Both are plastic but then the similarities end.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10094
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The Mantua sets seem much more difficult to find, think I have only seen two sets in person over the years, so good to see yours documented here.  Mantua must have modeled their locomotive based on an artist's conception, because when the actual locomotive portion was made, it was more conservatively styled.  The cars, though are very accurate to prototype.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
One of the first ACF Talgo trains, was displayed on a Lackawana branch line in NJ, then eventually went to Spain, where the Talgo concept and design principals are still used in new equipment in Europe and here on the West Coast.  Back in the '50s NYC and NH had some Talgo passenger cars as well, with different experimental motive power.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
You comments on the operation of each model tain seems to reflect the reactions to the prototypes - from what I have read, no one liked the bumpy Aerotrain cars, that were deemed too light, yet the Talgo design was smooth and successfull to this day!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jay
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         Bet the name T.O.T. in the subject caught your eye. These are pictures of "Trains Of Tomorrow"  that were produced in the mid 50's. One by Varney, one by Mantua. Both are plastic but then the similarities end.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         Pictures 1, 2,and 3 are of the Varney Aero Train produced 1956-59. The pictures I am sending have the original drive in the engine and the cars are original too. (Not Bowser, nor any Kemtron improvements added). My engine runs very nice but a lot of people didn't like it and changed to the Kemtron drive. The 3 passenger cars ( came in my set #20 ) run poor because they are to light. You can add or subtract cars since each is individual. Again Kemtron modifications can be added.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          Pictures 4, 5, 6 and 7  are the Mantua TALGO train. Made in 1957 to counter the Varney Aero Train. The engine has the Mantua drive in it. Runs nice also. The 3 cars are ARTICULATED and heavier then the Aero Train. They track much better because of this and have factory lighting.You have factory painted versions ( I know of 2 styles ) or you could buy a kit. My example is a kit that I painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           Probably more attempts by others to produce T.O.T ( HO ) but these are the most popular, vintage and collectable.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                   Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10095
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T. [7 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Got me beat.  My Aerotrain is a Bowser shell on a modified Athearn SW-7
                                                                                                                                                                                    
chassis from Alco Models (which is why I had no reservations about modifying
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the paint to Milwaukee Northern).  Cars are an assortment, some may be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
original, some bowser, but just with the "snap in wheels" like the HO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
automobiles.  There is a guy on eBay selling reproductions of what I think
                                                                                                                                                                                    
is the Kemtron wheels, I'm working on getting mine converted over.  I have
                                                                                                                                                                                    
enough shells to do a prototype 10 car train.  He also sells resin cast
                                                                                                                                                                                    
floors with interiors that would let you use kadee couplers instead of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
drawbars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A credible model of the actual "Train of Tomorrow" could probably be done
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with Con-cor/Lilliput cars and a pair of E-7's from anybody.   As I recall
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the actual train ended up on the UP.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Cc: <lennard@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:20 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] T. O. T. [7 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
        Bet the name T.O.T. in the subject caught your eye. These are
                                                                                                                                                                                    
pictures of "Trains Of Tomorrow"  that were produced in the mid 50's. One by
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Varney, one by Mantua. Both are plastic but then the similarities end.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
        Pictures 1, 2,and 3 are of the Varney Aero Train produced 1956-59.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The pictures I am sending have the original drive in the engine and the cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
are original too. (Not Bowser, nor any Kemtron improvements added). My
                                                                                                                                                                                    
engine runs very nice but a lot of people didn't like it and changed to the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Kemtron drive. The 3 passenger cars ( came in my set #20 ) run poor because
                                                                                                                                                                                    
they are to light. You can add or subtract cars since each is individual.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Again Kemtron modifications can be added.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
         Pictures 4, 5, 6 and 7  are the Mantua TALGO train. Made in 1957 to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
counter the Varney Aero Train. The engine has the Mantua drive in it. Runs
                                                                                                                                                                                    
nice also. The 3 cars are ARTICULATED and heavier then the Aero Train. They
                                                                                                                                                                                    
track much better because of this and have factory lighting.You have factory
                                                                                                                                                                                    
painted versions ( I know of 2 styles ) or you could buy a kit. My example
                                                                                                                                                                                    
is a kit that I painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
          Probably more attempts by others to produce T.O.T ( HO ) but these
                                                                                                                                                                                    
are the most popular, vintage and collectable.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                      Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10096
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Varney Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Speaking of vintage options, last January at the Timonium MD show, I examined but didn't buy a Hobbytown drive kit in a Hobbytown box that identified it as an Aerotrain drive kit.  Anyone else ever seen or heard of this item?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 1:55:58 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: T. O. T. / Varney Aerotrain

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    All, I purchased a Varney Aerotrain unpowered locomotive at Polk's in NYC in the later 1960's, think it was 89 cents. He had a whole basket of them. I finally found an assembled observation at a train show junk box about ten years ago that was painted bright red all over with a barn brush, but it cleaned up looking new, that inspired me, before I found eBay, to get a few car body castings from Bowser and a power frame, but that is as far as the project proceeded. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Why? I spotted a stack of about 5 or 6 familiar looking boxes at a large train show several years back, reached over and opened one up, some were unpainted some factory paint that had been removed, but what caught my eye was the glint of those "gold" nuggets - the Kemtron brass sideframes that Glenn J. mentioned - in every box, plus the locomotive had the Kemtron deluxe drive with brass sideframes as well. Total cars, some doubled up in the boxes: a full consist of nine (as used on
 the PRR) plus the locomotive, and the deal was very good. So good someone was trying to take them out of my hands before I found the seller! 

                                                                                                                                                                                    So now I have examples of both original and "Kemtronized" . I like having some of my vintage locomotives equipped with vintage options that were made for them at the time they were new, and then am able to display the original alongside them.

                                                                                                                                                                                    FYI, Bowser also sells/sold the Varney rigid plastic "diaphrams" that fit between the cars, used for display only, as the cars can not round a curved track with them in place. Think there were listed in the parts/price list, but not shown on the diagrams. Makes a nice display option though.

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W. 

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have an 8-car Aerotrain--that' s how
 many Kemtron truck sets I had--2 locos--one the Kemtron, the other cobbled up from an Athearn SW-1000 drive. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Cars have bluish X-ray film in the windows, plus floors and weight. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > When the "Train of Tomorrow" title came up, I was actually expecting that someone had actually modeled that GM demo train from 1947. gj


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10097
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Wanted  athearn f7a gear for truck
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't have a spare, but that's just a platic gearbox truck, right?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Should be EASY to find.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
It looks like a 90507, and that is no longer in the Athearn Parts List (506 and 508 are).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Your square "U" clips that hold the truck in okay?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have a fix published on doing it when those clips fail.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Does yours "stutter" at low speed, and lights flicker?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Question:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Why does one truck have silver sideframes and one have black?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I would like to have a picture to what the gear looks like. I think I have a gear from others in this group.  Now is my turn to give back.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Earl Poulsen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Vancouver, WA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > LAT 45 degrees, 40 minutes, 6 seconds X LONG Minus 122 degrees, 39 minutes and 46 seconds
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have added photos  sww Photos Athearn F7A Need Gear
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10098
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Important to remember
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    If you are reporting the record of what they made you got to list it as what they said it was whether they were right or not, if you do know the difference then you can correct it as what is really is if not it is a history of HO vintage stuff by the vintage companies. Not really your fault they did not have a clue what they doing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Charlie W. 



                                                                                                                                                                                    


 


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

-- 

                                                                                                                                                                                     It's News. It's Reviews. It's Interviews. It's Free. What Are You Waiting For?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
www.movieline.com!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10099
						From: jerrygart5
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> - from what I have read, no one liked the bumpy Aerotrain cars, that were deemed too light, yet the Talgo design was smooth and successfull to this day!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From what I can recall, the Aerotrain cars were essentially GM bus bodies???   Jerry Garteiser
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10100
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: "Ping" Don Dellman
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I acquired several old HO pieces from my brother over the weekend. One of which is a Varney metal B&O observation car in basically good condition. It has (always) had a problem with the right side popping out at the back and now the trucks are missing some of the journal box covers. They may still be in the (original) box, haven't had any time to go through all the stuff as of yet. Knowing your interest in Varney and passenger equipment I thought I'd offer it to you cheap. Real cheap. Elsewise it'll be ebay'ed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10101
						From: William C. Jensen-Frisk
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: GARCO $29.95 switcher in 1949 money converted to 2008 money = $270.3
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Talk of old prices got me to look up the value of $29.95 in 1949 money versus what it would cost now. measuringworth.com has calculators for different methods of measuring prices. Results of 1949 $29.95 now:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
$270.37 using the consumer price index
                                                                                                                                                                                    
$224.06 using gross domestic product defaltor
                                                                                                                                                                                    
$453.09 using the number of unskilled labor hours to buy similar value
                                                                                                                                                                                    
     There are a couple of even more astronomical values using percentage of gross national product. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
     It seems todays cost for a switcher with DCC and Sound is about the same value of the Garco switcher in 1949, which was state of the art then! Complaints of hobby is too expensive were just as valid then. Also, People in their prime earning years would be more able than persons on fixed incomes to buy the latest HO equipment then as well as now. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
     Please, no need to expand on this thread, but it shows how vintage HO is EVEN CHEAPER BARGAIN NOW at $50 for the same $29.95 item now than it cost when new. Just point out what a bargain you are getting to your spouse if there is complaint about too many trains! Buy more trains now to help the economy, Bill Frisk
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10102
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Varney Areo Train
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Group,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have a brand new, in the (original) boxes Varney Areo Train Locomotive (non-powered) and two coaches. Maybe three. I'll have to dig through the box later and re-post how many. Maybe someone here is interested? If not, it will also be ebayed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10103
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jerrygart5
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 17:16
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: T. O. T.
/ Mantua 's
"Talgo"
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> - from what I have read, no one liked the bumpy Aerotrain cars, that were
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    deemed too light, yet the Talgo design was smooth and successfull to this day!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From what I can recall, the Aerotrain cars were essentially GM bus bodies???
Jerry Garteiser
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    [John Hagen] Yep. Cut down the center and widened (well
probably not actually cut, more likely built with a widened roof) on a purpose-built
frame assembly. It looked good, for the times at least, and was way ahead for both
economical and ecological (although that was not a consideration then) reasons
but poorly developed overall. They did ok up front but forgot passenger (their true
bosses) comfort in the back. With the resources of GM, just think of what could
have been had the development continued on to completion instead of putting an
developmental prototype out there as a sales demo.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10104
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: GARCO $29.95 switcher in 1949 money converted to 2008 money = $2
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 27, 2009, at 3:56 PM, William C. Jensen-Frisk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >     Talk of old prices got me to look up the value of $29.95 in  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1949 money versus what it would cost now. measuringworth.com has  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> calculators for different methods of measuring prices. Results of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1949 $29.95 now:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> $270.37 using the consumer price index
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    the above $270 is the 'flat rate' [mb]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > $224.06 using gross domestic product defaltor
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> $453.09 using the number of unskilled labor hours to buy similar value
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    The above $453 is how much you have to earn to have the 'flat rate'  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
left after some taxes are removed from your wages.......... [mb]  It  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
is one reason general prices were much lower then.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >      There are a couple of even more astronomical values using  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> percentage of gross national product.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      It seems todays cost for a switcher with DCC and Sound is  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> about the same value of the Garco switcher in 1949, which was state  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of the art then! Complaints of hobby is too expensive were just as  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> valid then. Also, People in their prime earning years would be more  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> able than persons on fixed incomes to buy the latest HO equipment  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> then as well as now.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      Please, no need to expand on this thread, but it shows how  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> vintage HO is EVEN CHEAPER BARGAIN NOW at $50 for the same $29.95  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> item now than it cost when new. Just point out what a bargain you  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> are getting to your spouse if there is complaint about too many  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> trains! Buy more trains now to help the economy, Bill Frisk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10105
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: unknown boxcar roof
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve, The stock cars all have the same AAR angled (w/ribs) roof as the metal sheathed box cars (B-100 -- B-114), the horizontal ribbed (B-200 - B-203) box cars, the truss-side/outside-braced (B-300 -- B-311) box cars and the plywood panel (B-601 -- B-602) box cars.  All of my eleven (S-100-- S-110) stock cars have this roof, as is also shown in all of the Roundhouse catalogs.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I don't know if this is prototypically correct, and the roof you have may even look better, but it's what came with the kits from the factory.  I really don't know if it was common to swap roofs, neither am I able to say that it would make much difference in the item's value if you did.  There have been numerous occasions though, when these cast pieces became warped (roofs, floors and sides all had this problem from time to time), and hobbyists either found them unuseable or tried straightening them but snapped them -- and wound up replacing the piece with what they could find.  I found a way to successfully straighten any of these parts to the point that it's undetected that they were ever warped, and have straightened many without ever breaking one.  But it's not easy, and I sweated out more than a few of them as I did it.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> What is the difference between this and the stock car roof then? My stockcars both have this kind of roof. I don't doubt what you say- I don't have a lot of MDC and am only going on what I have in my collection, and both cars are in a box somewhere. But it also makes me beg the question: This kind of roof is appropriate for a stock car- boxcars usually had panel roofs. I have some O Scale Westbrook stockcars with this design, as well as Lionel's cattle car with same kind of design.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Was it common too, to swap roofs then to suit a particular prototype?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> My curiousity is certainly piqued at this point!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- On Sun, 4/26/09, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: unknown boxcar roof
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Sunday, April 26, 2009, 1:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Gerold, This IS an MDC Roundhouse Models roof.  It is SPECIFICALLY made for going with the B-501 through B-504 Wood Sheathed Box Cars, and NOTHING ELSE.  You could use it for other 40' cars if you needed to (if you had one in better condition) as it will fit, but did not come with any other cars.  If anyone has this roof in a kit other than these Wood Sheathed Box Cars, someone switched or replaced the original roof -- possibly as a result of the same problem you have with this one. Ray FW
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > when rummaging in my boxes I found a cast boxcar roof which I got with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > some incomplete (metal) Athearn cars... it had desintegrated from 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > fatigue, I have  glued it together then to avoid losing  components.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Any idea what type of car this might have been?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10106
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Important to remember
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    That kind of error was quite common in the early days.  Many early models 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
didn't even use the model number, (I believe the Varney "SW-7" was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
originally just listed as a "1000 hp" EMC switcher).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
In reality it is a credible pre-war NW-2 (900 hp).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Revell's "SW-7" is a post war NW-2
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Tyco's "F-9" is an F-7
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Athearn's original "SW-1500" was an SW-7
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Athearn's "GP-9" is/was a GP-7
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm sure there were lots of others.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 3:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Important to remember
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
JimIf you are reporting the record of what they made you got to list it
                                                                                                                                                                                    
as what they said it was whether they were right or not, if you do know
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the difference then you can correct it as what is really is if not it is
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a history of HO vintage stuff by the vintage companies. Not really your
                                                                                                                                                                                    
fault they did not have a clue what they doing.Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
It's News. It's Reviews. It's Interviews. It's Free. What Are You Waiting 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
For?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
www.movieline.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10107
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jerry G.,  As far as I can determine, not exactly bus bodies, but constructed like them with bus type suspension. They were a bit wider and I think had additional frame members to stand the stress of pulling those multiple training units behind them.  But yes, I would agree, close enough, and with the unsatisfactory ride, the label stuck!  By contrast, the design history of the Talgo was much more sophisticated and influential in later railcar design, even if those original experiments did not last long in the U.S. W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jerrygart5" <jerryg@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > - from what I have read, no one liked the bumpy Aerotrain cars, that were deemed too light, yet the Talgo design was smooth and successfull to this day!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From what I can recall, the Aerotrain cars were essentially GM bus bodies???   Jerry Garteiser
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10108
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>From what I can recall, the Aerotrain cars were essentially GM bus bodies???
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jerry Garteiser
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> */[John Hagen] Yep. Cut down the center and widened (well probably not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> actually cut, more likely built with a widened roof) on a purpose-built 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> frame assembly. It looked good, for the times at least, and was way 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ahead for both economical and ecological (although that was not a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> consideration then) reasons but poorly developed overall. They did ok up 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> front but forgot passenger (their true bosses) comfort in the back. With 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the resources of GM, just think of what could have been had the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> development continued on to completion instead of putting an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> developmental prototype out there as a sales demo./*
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                        During its first years of operation Disneyland in Anaheim had a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
train ride that used scaled down versions of the Aerotrain. There was a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
station in Tomorrowland and one in Fantasyland that they ran between. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
After a few years the area in which this ride was located was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
redeveloped and the Matterhorn, Monorail and Submarine rides replaced 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
it. Possibly the Motor Boat ride was also part of that major redevelopment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    In about '68 or so my high school band (Anaheim High) played in one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
of the parades there one day, and as we marched through the back lot 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
area I saw one of those trains still in storage in a building back 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
there. No idea what has happened to them since then. There was two of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
them - one pastel blue and the other pastel pink.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Higgamus hoggamus
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Woman's monogamous,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Hoggamus higgamus
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Man is polygamous."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    -Ross Barnett, "The Marriage-Go-Round"
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10109
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbytown Aerotrain Dive?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B., Sounds interesting, I have not heard of one, nor reached the late 1950's in my ad survey and am missing 10 MR's from 1957-1959, but will see if I can pick up anything on it. Maybe some one else here knows more about it, too...W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Speaking of vintage options, last January at the Timonium MD show, I examined but didn't buy a Hobbytown drive kit in a Hobbytown box that identified it as an Aerotrain drive kit.  Anyone else ever seen or heard of this item?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 1:55:58 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: T. O. T. / Varney Aerotrain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> All, I purchased a Varney Aerotrain unpowered locomotive at Polk's in NYC in the later 1960's, think it was 89 cents. He had a whole basket of them. I finally found an assembled observation at a train show junk box about ten years ago that was painted bright red all over with a barn brush, but it cleaned up looking new, that inspired me, before I found eBay, to get a few car body castings from Bowser and a power frame, but that is as far as the project proceeded. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Why? I spotted a stack of about 5 or 6 familiar looking boxes at a large train show several years back, reached over and opened one up, some were unpainted some factory paint that had been removed, but what caught my eye was the glint of those "gold" nuggets - the Kemtron brass sideframes that Glenn J. mentioned - in every box, plus the locomotive had the Kemtron deluxe drive with brass sideframes as well. Total cars, some doubled up in the boxes: a full consist of nine (as used on the PRR) plus the locomotive, and the deal was very good. So good someone was trying to take them out of my hands before I found the seller! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> So now I have examples of both original and "Kemtronized" . I like having some of my vintage locomotives equipped with vintage options that were made for them at the time they were new, and then am able to display the original alongside them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> FYI, Bowser also sells/sold the Varney rigid plastic "diaphrams" that fit between the cars, used for display only, as the cars can not round a curved track with them in place. Think there were listed in the parts/price list, but not shown on the diagrams. Makes a nice display option though.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@ .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I have an 8-car Aerotrain--that' s how many Kemtron truck sets I had--2 locos--one the Kemtron, the other cobbled up from an Athearn SW-1000 drive. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Cars have bluish X-ray film in the windows, plus floors and weight. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > When the "Train of Tomorrow" title came up, I was actually expecting that someone had actually modeled that GM demo train from 1947. gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10110
						From: Nelson
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Amazing stuff as always. The Mantua drive looks like the predecessor to the MU-2 truck. Does it have a larger armature than the MU-2, in keeping with the larger open frame motors they put in their steamers back then?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          Pictures 4, 5, 6 and 7  are the Mantua TALGO train. Made in 1957 to counter the Varney Aero Train. The engine has the Mantua drive in it. Runs nice also. The 3 cars are ARTICULATED and heavier then the Aero Train. They track much better because of this and have factory lighting.You have factory painted versions ( I know of 2 styles ) or you could buy a kit. My example is a kit that I painted. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10111
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Areo Train
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John H,  Some of that Varney AeroTrain packaging was attractive, using the official General Motors artwork.  Now there would be all sorts of license agreements and such, back then, companies appreciated the value of additional publicity and good-will!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Group,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have a brand new, in the (original) boxes Varney Areo Train Locomotive (non-powered) and two coaches. Maybe three. I'll have to dig through the box later and re-post how many. Maybe someone here is interested? If not, it will also be ebayed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Milwaukee
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10112
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Portland Oregon Zoo Railway had an Aerotrain as well as an ole-timer 4-4-0--  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
this was in the Oregon Centennial 1959--
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 4:35 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>From what I can recall, the Aerotrain cars were essentially GM bus 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>bodies??? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10113
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    One is always amazed at what one finds out on these forums.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Remember the Baldwin Diesel switcher on the SP that sat at the freight shed?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
My "job" was to light it off and have it warmed up for the crew when they showed up for their "turn", and I ran it to the east end of town at the "Yard Limit" sign.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Trying desperately to place a face to your name.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And failing miserably.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Colonist, '67.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Fullerton Junior College, TET Offensive, joined the Navy to stay out of 'Nam.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
You used to deal with that hobby shop just north of Lincoln?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
We still have some of the Athearn freight cars we got there.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >     During its first years of operation Disneyland in Anaheim had a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> train ride that used scaled down versions of the Aerotrain. There was a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> station in Tomorrowland and one in Fantasyland that they ran between. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> After a few years the area in which this ride was located was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> redeveloped and the Matterhorn, Monorail and Submarine rides replaced 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> it. Possibly the Motor Boat ride was also part of that major redevelopment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     In about '68 or so my high school band (Anaheim High) played in one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of the parades there one day, and as we marched through the back lot 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> area I saw one of those trains still in storage in a building back 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> there. No idea what has happened to them since then. There was two of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> them - one pastel blue and the other pastel pink.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "Higgamus hoggamus
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "Woman's monogamous,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "Hoggamus higgamus
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "Man is polygamous."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     -Ross Barnett, "The Marriage-Go-Round"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10114
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        This is one I can't answer off 
hand. I don't have any plans and I don't remember when assembled. I will look 
inside and try to check. I have a Mantua parts/assembly book that 
has drawings for the MU-2 power truck  Really don't want to take 
it apart. I'll let you know for tomorrow. Collection in basement, I'm upstairs 
in computer room.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  Nelson 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 7:46 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: T. O. T.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                    Amazing stuff as always. The Mantua drive looks like the 
  predecessor to the MU-2 truck. Does it have a larger armature than the MU-2, 
  in keeping with the larger open frame motors they put in their steamers back 
  then?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Pictures 4, 5, 6 
  and 7 are the Mantua TALGO train. Made in 1957 to counter the Varney Aero 
  Train. The engine has the Mantua drive in it. Runs nice also. The 3 cars are 
  ARTICULATED and heavier then the Aero Train. They track much better because of 
  this and have factory lighting.You have factory painted versions ( I know of 2 
  styles ) or you could buy a kit. My example is a kit that I 
  painted.

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10115
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Gilbert Gon
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                    I hope this attachment works, if not, check my blog.  I picked this Gilbert Gondola casting up on ebay with some other items.  I would like to assemble, but have not been able to find any directions.  I could not find anything on HOseeker.  Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10116
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Areo Train
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I was always intrested in owning an Aero-Train let me know maybe a can afford it, maybe I can't.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Areo Train
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:41:34 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Group,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have a brand new, in the (original) boxes Varney Areo Train 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Locomotive (non-powered) and two coaches. Maybe three. I'll have to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> dig through the box later and re-post how many. Maybe someone here 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> is interested? If not, it will also be ebayed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Milwaukee
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
It's News. It's Reviews. It's Interviews. It's Free. What Are You Waiting For?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
www.movieline.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10117
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Hobbytown Aerotrain Drive?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Well, if Hobbytown did produce a drive for this locomotive, I am  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
certain that it would have been superior to the Kemtron drive, which  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
was and is both noisy and very clunky.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
That said, with the Kemtron parts and some commitment to common  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
detailing and careful painting,  this train can be made to be  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
absolutely beautiful.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The Athearn power solution may be worthy of investigation. The  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
distinctive power truck used on the prototype Aerotrain is/was the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
same as under the MP15 switchers, as I recall.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10118
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Gilbert Gon [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Kent, I've got two I bought on ebay already assembled, I believe the only other parts are trucks, couplers, and decals, do you have any more of the kit?

                                                                                                                                                                                    I think I've seen instructions online somewhere, I remember reading about where to place the decals, 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Check out http://www.rfgco.com/americanflyertrainscatalogs/index.html

                                                                                                                                                                                    The attached pictures are from the site's catalog section, I still think I saw instructions somewhere on this site.

                                                                                                                                                                                    But the pictures show the gondola kit consists of trucks, frame and gondola body.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "nvrr49@..." <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:10:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Gilbert Gon [1 Attachment]

                                                                                                                                                                                    









    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    I hope this attachment works, if not, check my blog.  I picked this Gilbert Gondola casting up on ebay with some other items.  I would like to assemble, but have not been able to find any directions.  I could not find anything on HOseeker.  Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10119
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Gilbert Gon [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    All I have is the body.  I figure I have a couple bucks in it, as it came with something I really wanted.  Thank you for the lead, much appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Kent, I've got two I bought on ebay already assembled, I believe the only other parts are trucks, couplers, and decals, do you have any more of the kit?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I think I've seen instructions online somewhere, I remember reading about where to place the decals, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Check out http://www.rfgco.com/americanflyertrainscatalogs/index.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The attached pictures are from the site's catalog section, I still think I saw instructions somewhere on this site.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> But the pictures show the gondola kit consists of trucks, frame and gondola body.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chris B. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10120
						From: Riverboy
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Gilbert Gon [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chris ,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I was the seller of this body and unfortunately that is all there was . It came in a lot box . It's in wonderful condition with no cracks or anything . It's a shame it wasn't complete .
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Tod Dwyer 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Gilbert Gon [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 8:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Kent, I've got two I bought on ebay already assembled, I believe the only other parts are trucks, couplers, and decals, do you have any more of the kit?

                                                                                                                                                                                    I think I've seen instructions online somewhere, I remember reading about where to place the decals, 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Check out http://www.rfgco. com/americanflye rtrainscatalogs/ index.html

                                                                                                                                                                                    The attached pictures are from the site's catalog section, I still think I saw instructions somewhere on this site.

                                                                                                                                                                                    But the pictures show the gondola kit consists of trucks, frame and gondola body.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "nvrr49@yahoo. com" <nvrr49@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:10:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Gilbert Gon [1 Attachment]

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I hope this attachment works, if not, check my blog. I picked this Gilbert Gondola casting up on ebay with some other items. I would like to assemble, but have not been able to find any directions. I could not find anything on HOseeker. Any help would be appreciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                    Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                    Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10121
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Important to remember
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/27/2009 7:29:27 PM EDT, Don wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    pre-war NW-2 (900 hp).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Not quite right.  The original NW, and NC for that matter, were Nine hundred hp from a Winton 201-A engine.  By the time of the NW-2, however, the rating had been upped to 1000 hp using the first 567-series engine.  Interestingly, the NC-2 (C for cast frame vs the NW's built-up welded frame) still used the older engine and retained the Nine hundred hp rating.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Athearn's original "SW-1500" was an SW-7
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ALMOST an SW-7 - there were some detail differences, mostly in the number of louvers on the sides of the hood.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10122
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Gilbert Gon
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Say Kent,  Nice vintage modeling in your blog photos! I just pulled out my Megow B&O gon along with their B&O hopper and have to replace the ribs on both as most are long gone, both from a large estate lot.  Tell me about that Stevens Poultry Car, Red Ball is my main freight car interest, having most paper and most kits/models and the only poultry car kit I am familiar with is the early photo-sided Stevens one from the early 1940's. Is yours a later Wabash Valley Era kit, or did M Dale Neton revise the kit later in the 1940's?  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Not sure, but I think that space on my Gilbert gon is where they placed the LNE "fried egg" decal.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@..." <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I hope this attachment works, if not, check my blog.  I picked this Gilbert Gondola casting up on ebay with some other items.  I would like to assemble, but have not been able to find any directions.  I could not find anything on HOseeker.  Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10123
						From: trainliker
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Areo Train
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't want to spin off topic on this or start some big legal discussion.  But in the interest of just being informational and in a very simplified way, nowadays failing to aggressively protect intellectual property can lead to losing your rights to them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
For example, the Union Pacific (and predecessor railroad) debacle most in the hobby know about eventually got worked out.  But everyone still has to get a license even though there is little or no cost for it.  I just read the BNSF also caved in and dropped their onerous $1,000 license fee and 5% royalty, but did not eliminate a fee, reduced it to $1.  They really do have protect their property or they will very likely lose their rights.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
It's unfortunate that the law has spun so far from common sense, but that's not the fault of hobby and toy manufacturers nor of UP and BNSF.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Finally, I don't know if, or what, agreement Varney may have had with GM.  I do know that less red tape would have been needed back then.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chuck K.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John H,  Some of that Varney AeroTrain packaging was attractive, using the official General Motors artwork.  Now there would be all sorts of license agreements and such, back then, companies appreciated the value of additional publicity and good-will!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Group,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I have a brand new, in the (original) boxes Varney Areo Train Locomotive (non-powered) and two coaches. Maybe three. I'll have to dig through the box later and re-post how many. Maybe someone here is interested? If not, it will also be ebayed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Milwaukee
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10124
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    It has been a decade since I built it, so I really don't remember a lot about it.  But it came with the original box and paper sides.  I kept the sides, see attached  About the only thing used from the original kit where the feed box, bolsters, ladders, ends and some roof detail.  So more scratch built than a kit.  I have also attached a picture as I modeled it for those that have not looked at my blog.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Say Kent,  Nice vintage modeling in your blog photos! I just pulled out my Megow B&O gon along with their B&O hopper and have to replace the ribs on both as most are long gone, both from a large estate lot.  Tell me about that Stevens Poultry Car, Red Ball is my main freight car interest, having most paper and most kits/models and the only poultry car kit I am familiar with is the early photo-sided Stevens one from the early 1940's. Is yours a later Wabash Valley Era kit, or did M Dale Neton revise the kit later in the 1940's?  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Not sure, but I think that space on my Gilbert gon is where they placed the LNE "fried egg" decal.  W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10125
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Gilbert Gon
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    It looks like it is really only missing the underframe.  Hopefully I can pick up a complete car somewhere and copy the underframe.  It is in great shape, which leads me to my next subject.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have an old, like before I was born old, Megow gondola kit and all of the metal parts have degraded.  Most parts are still in one piece, but with cracks all over.  Is there any way to save them?  Coat with epoxy or CA?  Or should I just move on and remake the parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Chris ,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I was the seller of this body and unfortunately that is all there was . It came in a lot box . It's in wonderful condition with no cracks or anything . It's a shame it wasn't complete .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Tod Dwyer 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10126
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Zamac Rot
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have an old, like before I was born old, Megow gondola kit and all of the metal parts have degraded.  Most parts are still in one piece, but with cracks all over.  Is there any way to save them?  Coat with epoxy or CA?  Or should I just move on and remake the parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10127
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Rivarossi Yellowstone  2-8-8-4  PICS!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Finally getting around to the pics.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 9:39:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi Yellowstone 2-8-8-4

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello All,

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am seeking some information. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Did Rivarossi make a 2-8-8-4 with small stars centered on the axles of the drivers? 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have one. I know it is Rivarossi (it says it). The front pilot deck is broken off (still have it). I do not recognize the pilot truck (although it is definately Rivarossi). Just never saw one of these before. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    A web search has revealed nothing on it.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks so much in advance.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean


                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10128
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hi Everyone:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thank you for the comments about the Greenberg Varney book.  After
reading your remarks last night I went looking for a copy but cannot find
any except one for $85.  A bit steep for my retirement budget. 
I do not need a mint copy, so will keep looking.  After the
commentaries, I really want the book now.  (drat)  I'd pay $50,
but need to hold to that range for now.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
BTW, Jim... tell me more about your, "HO Scale Collector's &
History," group.  What's a, "SIG," group?

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'd really like to limit my expectations/desires, but I admit the Varney
subject has become all consuming. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 07:27 AM 4/27/2009, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                       
Chuck K,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          There have been a
NUMBER of supplements to the Greenberg Varney Guide as new information or
Varney products became known. As a member of the HO Scale Collectors
& History - SIG group Dave Spanagel would include these supplements
as part of our newsletter "The Reporting Mark"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: trainliker 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    To:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 10:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains
question

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The Varney Guide is very well done. Also, a supplement was, and
probably still is, available from the author Spanagel. It includes the
"Lil Raskel Wreck Proof Train" which is an interesting HO
item.

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Also, did you know that Varney also made a wood (with some plastic
parts) PT boat kit that was about two feet long? I used to have a couple
of them. And they also made a submarine although I have never seen
one.

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    > I recommend having any of the Greenberg HO guides including
Varney, Athearn and Lionel. The people who took the time to gather and
write down the information did a great job. There will always be things
that change or show up which may alter some facts but a must for a
serious collector. Remember the Varney book published around 1986.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    > As to price, if I'm not mistaken I paid $39.95 originally for my
mint copy. It was bought from Dave Spanagel, the author. One neat thing
about my copy is it is addressed personally to me and signed by
Mr.Spanagel.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    > I would also like to recommend Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicons,
Volumes I & II. Again published a while back with some flaws in
information but still an excellent source of information for most vintage
HO engines, even brass.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    > So I recommend, if you can afford it, to get the Greenberg
Varney Guide if only for the engines. An added point is that the Varney
Steam engine pictures in the book, for the most part, are from the
collection of Dr Joe Weber. He lives 6 miles away and I have viewed his
large collection of vintage HO, OO, S, O and larger gauge trains. A real
treat to see but I don't think he shows them anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: Dennis Thompson 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    > To:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 8:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains
question
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10129
						From: Walter J. Bayer II
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Actually, Dennis, et al., the $85 is the lowest price on the internet for used copies. "New" copies start at $159. Groan!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Everyone:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thank you for the comments about the Greenberg Varney book.  After 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> reading your remarks last night I went looking for a copy but cannot 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> find any except one for $85.  A bit steep for my retirement 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> budget.  I do not need a mint copy, so will keep looking.  After the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> commentaries, I really want the book now.  (drat)  I'd pay $50, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> need to hold to that range for now.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> BTW, Jim... tell me more about your, "HO Scale Collector's & 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> History," group.  What's a, "SIG," group?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'd really like to limit my expectations/desires, but I admit the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Varney subject has become all consuming.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10130
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Areo Train
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck K and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I think I read a reference in some Varney paper that they based the model of official blueprints, don't know if it is fact, assume so, but they must have received an OK for that artwork as well.  I believe I also read somewhere (old Model RR Mags? Carstens Book?) but treat it as unverified at this moment, that the Varney Aerotrain received some network TV air time making its debut on NBC's Today Show, which like now, is something that publicity agents fight over, so if my memory of what I read is right, both GM and Varney benefitted from the cooperation with publicity they could not buy, which is probably more than they either hoped for or expected and better than license fees!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
.. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainliker" <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I don't want to spin off topic on this or start some big legal discussion.  But in the interest of just being informational and in a very simplified way, nowadays failing to aggressively protect intellectual property can lead to losing your rights to them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> For example, the Union Pacific (and predecessor railroad) debacle most in the hobby know about eventually got worked out.  But everyone still has to get a license even though there is little or no cost for it.  I just read the BNSF also caved in and dropped their onerous $1,000 license fee and 5% royalty, but did not eliminate a fee, reduced it to $1.  They really do have protect their property or they will very likely lose their rights.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It's unfortunate that the law has spun so far from common sense, but that's not the fault of hobby and toy manufacturers nor of UP and BNSF.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Finally, I don't know if, or what, agreement Varney may have had with GM.  I do know that less red tape would have been needed back then.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck K.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > John H,  Some of that Varney AeroTrain packaging was attractive, using the official General Motors artwork.  Now there would be all sorts of license agreements and such, back then, companies appreciated the value of additional publicity and good-will!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Group,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I have a brand new, in the (original) boxes Varney Areo Train Locomotive (non-powered) and two coaches. Maybe three. I'll have to dig through the box later and re-post how many. Maybe someone here is interested? If not, it will also be ebayed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Milwaukee
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10131
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Areo Train
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Lionel......the F-5 (halfway between an F-3 and an F-7, half chicken wire, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
half louvers) was paid for by Santa Fe, NYC, and Lionel, if I recall.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Certainly is different today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Chuck K and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I think I read a reference in some Varney paper that they based the model of official blueprints, don't know if it is fact, assume so, but they must have received an OK for that artwork as well.  I believe I also read somewhere (old Model RR Mags? Carstens Book?) but treat it as unverified at this moment, that the Varney Aerotrain received some network TV air time making its debut on NBC's Today Show, which like now, is something that publicity agents fight over, so if my memory of what I read is right, both GM and Varney benefitted from the cooperation with publicity they could not buy, which is probably more than they either hoped for or expected and better than license fees!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> .. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainliker" <ckinzer@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I don't want to spin off topic on this or start some big legal discussion.  But in the interest of just being informational and in a very simplified way, nowadays failing to aggressively protect intellectual property can lead to losing your rights to them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > For example, the Union Pacific (and predecessor railroad) debacle most in the hobby know about eventually got worked out.  But everyone still has to get a license even though there is little or no cost for it.  I just read the BNSF also caved in and dropped their onerous $1,000 license fee and 5% royalty, but did not eliminate a fee, reduced it to $1.  They really do have protect their property or they will very likely lose their rights.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > It's unfortunate that the law has spun so far from common sense, but that's not the fault of hobby and toy manufacturers nor of UP and BNSF.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Finally, I don't know if, or what, agreement Varney may have had with GM.  I do know that less red tape would have been needed back then.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Chuck K.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > John H,  Some of that Varney AeroTrain packaging was attractive, using the official General Motors artwork.  Now there would be all sorts of license agreements and such, back then, companies appreciated the value of additional publicity and good-will!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Group,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > I have a brand new, in the (original) boxes Varney Areo Train Locomotive (non-powered) and two coaches. Maybe three. I'll have to dig through the box later and re-post how many. Maybe someone here is interested? If not, it will also be ebayed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Milwaukee
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10132
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Zamac Rot
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm certain the rot will continue with the parts, even if you seal the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
outside of them......... continuing chemical reaction between the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
metals in the alloy of the castings........
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Perhaps you'd like to consider replacing some of the dying parts with  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the new releases of the vintage Red Ball parts? Using those vintage  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
era parts just might suit your needs for the Megow kit..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.bittercreekmodels.com/DETAIL_PARTS.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     On Apr 27, 2009, at 8:58 PM, nvrr49 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have an old, like before I was born old, Megow gondola kit and all  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of the metal parts have degraded.  Most parts are still in one  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> piece, but with cracks all over.  Is there any way to save them?   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Coat with epoxy or CA?  Or should I just move on and remake the parts. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10133
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    curmudgeon wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > One is always amazed at what one finds out on these forums. Remember
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the Baldwin Diesel switcher on the SP that sat at the freight shed?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                        Didn't get over there much. I lived over near State College and La 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Palma, just at the far end of AHS's eastern border. People on the other 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
side of State College went to Katella High.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > My "job" was to light it off and have it warmed up for the crew when
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> they showed up for their "turn", and I ran it to the east end of town
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> at the "Yard Limit" sign.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Trying desperately to place a face to your name.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> And failing miserably.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Colonist, '67.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                        I was '70, so you graduated the June before I started at AHS.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Fullerton Junior College, TET Offensive, joined the Navy to stay out
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of 'Nam.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You used to deal with that hobby shop just north of Lincoln? We still
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have some of the Athearn freight cars we got there.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                        Not sure the one you mean? When I could get mom to drive me I liked 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
to go to the Little Depot on Beach near Ball.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    -Stephen Wright
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10134
						From: Nelson
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    If you can't see the armature from the outside, don't bother taking it apart. Just wondering if they started with beefier motors in their trucks as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nelson,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     This is one I can't answer off hand. I don't have any plans and I don't remember when assembled. I will look inside and try to check. I have a Mantua parts/assembly book that has drawings for the MU-2 power truck  Really don't want to take it apart. I'll let you know for tomorrow. Collection in basement, I'm upstairs in computer room.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                         Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10135
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, Walter, I'm seeing several float ...  all around the same price.  Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Not sure what I'll do.  Sounds more and more like the book I need though.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 07:36 PM 4/27/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >Actually, Dennis, et al., the $85 is the lowest price on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>internet for used copies. "New" copies start at $159. Groan!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Everyone:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Thank you for the comments about the Greenberg Varney book.  After
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > reading your remarks last night I went looking for a copy but cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > find any except one for $85.  A bit steep for my retirement
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > budget.  I do not need a mint copy, so will keep looking.  After the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > commentaries, I really want the book now.  (drat)  I'd pay $50, but
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > need to hold to that range for now.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > BTW, Jim... tell me more about your, "HO Scale Collector's &
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > History," group.  What's a, "SIG," group?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I'd really like to limit my expectations/desires, but I admit the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Varney subject has become all consuming.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.5/2083 - Release Date: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>04/27/09 18:00:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10136
						From: Thomas Parsons
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Gilbert Gon
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello Cris. I have been trying to reach you about the MR 1976-1976 Model Railroader Magazine 11 issues. If you would give me a total And your address I will send you the money. Yahoo sent me a memo stating your server would not accept my emails. I don.\'t know what is going on but I hope you get this and will contact me You advertised the Magazines on HOYARDSALE.  Tom Parsons

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Mon, 4/27/09, nvrr49 <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: nvrr49 <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Gilbert Gon
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 6:57 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    It looks like it is really only missing the underframe. Hopefully I can pick up a complete car somewhere and copy the underframe. It is in great shape, which leads me to my next subject.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have an old, like before I was born old, Megow gondola kit and all of the metal parts have degraded. Most parts are still in one piece, but with cracks all over. Is there any way to save them? Coat with epoxy or CA? Or should I just move on and remake the parts.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Chris ,
                                                                                                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I was the seller of this body and unfortunately that is all there was . It came in a lot box . It's in wonderful condition with no cracks or anything . It's a shame it wasn't complete .
                                                                                                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Tod Dwyer 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10137
						From: Thomas Parsons
						Date: 4/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: MR magazines 1976-1976
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello Kent. I am sorry I wrote Chris but I meant you.  Tom Parsons

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Mon, 4/27/09, nvrr49@... <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: nvrr49@... <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Gilbert Gon [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 5:10 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I hope this attachment works, if not, check my blog. I picked this Gilbert Gondola casting up on ebay with some other items. I would like to assemble, but have not been able to find any directions. I could not find anything on HOseeker. Any help would be appreciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                    Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                    Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10138
						From: Jim Waterman
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    The Aerotrain coach bodies were widened bus bodies 
- about 3-4 feet wider than the standard GM bus of the time. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Folks said that they had a terrible ride. The idea 
was to get light, and with conventional track of the time, they bounced all over 
the place. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Growing up, I stared at that 55 PRR calendar just 
wondering what happened to that fantastic train.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Probably good that I never got a chance to ride it. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I believe one is still on display at the St. Louis 
Museum of Transportation? I remember walking through it in the early 1970's. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10139
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
The other set is in the Green Bay Wi museum.

                                                                                                                                                                                    One engine and three coaches, which I think is the same numbers at St. Louis 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I rode the cars a few years ago at the museum. I was reminded of  the Freeway Hop riding experience you get in a compact car on the roads.

                                                                                                                                                                                    A couple of years ago, the Green Bay museum was exploring  returning the locomotive to action with a 8-cylinder  EMD switcher engine. I don't know if the project is still being considered. The locomotives were given to the museums with the engines removed, as best as I know of the two widely separated units.

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    On Apr 28, 2009, at 6:00 AM, Jim Waterman wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                    The Aerotrain coach bodies were widened bus bodies - about 3-4 feet wider than the standard GM bus of the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Folks said that they had a terrible ride. The idea was to get light, and with conventional track of the time, they bounced all over the place.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Growing up, I stared at that 55 PRR calendar just wondering what happened to that fantastic train.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Probably good that I never got a chance to ride it.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    I believe one is still on display at the St. Louis Museum of Transportation? I remember walking through it in the early 1970's.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10140
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Let me try to explain what the HOSC&H-SIG was. First SIG stands for Special 
Interest Group and were affiliated with the NMRA ( National Model Railroad 
Association). I assume there were more then this group. Also this was started at 
a time before the electronic age of Yahoo groups and computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
HOSC&H ( H O Scale Collectors & History ) was a group founded back in 
the early 80's by John David Spanagel (The author of Greenberg's Guide to 
Varney Trains ). I was not an original member but became a member not long after 
that. Membership was open, for a nominal fee of $10 at the start ( for postage 
and shipping of the newsletter ), to anyone having interest in vintage HO scale. 
There were 4 newsletters  ( The Reporting Mark ) sent a year with 
information and pictures that members sent in. It covered a variety of HO 
companies, their products and history.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            As 
new facts or vintage items were found they were shared with all group 
members in the newsletter. That is how new updates for the Greenberg Varney 
book were shared with members. These 20 years of newsletters were a 
valuable tool in HO history. A lot of this information came about from almost 
300 members. (I know a few are in this Yahoo vintage HO group.)  A lot 
of, up till then, unknown information became available and was shared. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            Sorry to 
say that this group passed out of existence a few years ago. Dave Spanagel 
wanted to retire from his job and retire from being the "Moderator" of this 
group to fully enjoy his "golden years".
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           Hope that 
explains HOSC&H-SIG a little.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10141
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones, 1st vs 2nd run: headlight change?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis, These last two engines which Varney produced may not have been engineered quite as well as his earlier engines, since they were designed for a more economical market, but IMO, most anything that Varney produced was still well engineered and is always well worth collecting.  These two engines were extremely popular with modelers at the time.  BTW, adding to the Varney catalogs I mentioned showing the Casey Jones as having the hooded headlight, the 1953 and the 1957 (LAST Gordon Varney year) catalogs both showed this engine as having a hooded headlight.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis L.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Congratulatons on your recent purchases. Your "Casey Jones" 4-6-0 and the "Old Lady" 2-8-0 were the last totally new steam locomotives that Varney introduced and had a lot more in common, as far as production and assembly go, with the competition, Penn Line and all zamac Mantua, than they did with the earlier Varney line that was designed in the 1930's.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I believe they are a good collection topic in their own right, having a longer life (50+ years) than any Varney except the Docksider/Little Joe.  A specilized collection of the models and related paper through Bowser production would be interesting to see and learn from, and fun too!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The Bowser Reference Manual tells how over the years, almost everything was changed and how few parts could interchange between original and new.  Aside from my having one original used boiler and rear cab wall castinings that I pulled out this morning, and a long consideration to buy a Consolidation to model one of Erie's early examples, I have no experience with them except for constant later grade school yard debates with a classmate as to who's was better, my Penn Line H-9 or his Varney "Old Lady." 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> As to variations during specific Varney production, as that extended over at least 15 years, I think you are right to express caution over concluding any varience in detail (like that headlight hood) that could have been the result of many modelers' modifications versus a factory die-change. Many prototype roads did not use hoods.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> If you take a look at the Bowser manual, they specifically note that the boiler casting was modified, but notes the modification was mainly to enable it to used a DC 71 motor instead of the DC-60.  I also noticed, by comparing my original casting to the Bowser photos, that the lower firebox extension was also altered.  You may find more by comparing examples side by side.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm sure others will have much to add about these popular locomotives!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Since joining this List, I've managed to purchase a 1st run and a 2nd 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > run Varney Casey Jones locomotive.  Thank you Jim and List.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > So I'm back asking more Casey Jones questions:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > In reviewing photos of Jim's collection and the physical models now 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > in front of me, I see the old, "fully hooded," headlight of the first 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > run has changed in the second run.  Second run seems to have had the, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > "hood," bobbed off almost entirely.  On the other hand, I got a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > chance to look at a NOS Bowser, unbuilt, Casey Jones kit, and there 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > was the fully hooded headlight.   ??????????   Or did a lot of folks 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > take a file to the headlight and that's what I'm noticing??  I'm 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > thinking the boiler/cab casting would have remained the same 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > throughout production life with Varney and Bowser.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Thoughts?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Also, anyone know when blind center drivers were used, (or not used), 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > on these locomotives?  I seem to have ended up with one of each, the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > example I have with the blind driver is on a 1st run version.  But 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I've now seen a second, 1st run version, with all flanged drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10142
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Rivarossi Yellowstone  2-8-8-4  PICS! [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
You have a Cab forward base and drive with an altered UP boiler and
cab.  The trailing truck is UP.  The lead truck is definitely not AHM. 
The stars were probably added by the person making the alterations
during the course of construction.  Take the boiler top off and see if
it has been sectioned and glued back together.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks for the photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sean Naylor wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Finally getting around to the pics.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Sent: Tuesday, April
21, 2009 9:39:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Subject: [vintageHO]
Rivarossi Yellowstone 2-8-8-4
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I am seeking some information. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Did Rivarossi make a 2-8-8-4 with small stars centered on the axles of
the drivers? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have one. I know it is Rivarossi (it says it). The front pilot deck
is broken off (still have it). I do not recognize the pilot truck
(although it is definately Rivarossi). Just never saw one of these
before. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
A web search has revealed nothing on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks so much in advance.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10143
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Lione F-5 (was  Varney Areo Train)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/27/2009 10:50:20 PM EDT, idioticyahoo wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Lionel...... the F-5 (halfway between an F-3 and an F-7, half chicken wire, half louvers) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Never seen one like that; only Lionel Fs I can find pics of show louvers on the side, but with the center part of the upper grillwork different from the panels either side of it.  They must've been working from a bad photo or one of a unit being shopped.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    A true F-5, like a late F-3, is indistinguishable from an early F-7; the differences were all internal.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10144
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Rivarossi Yellowstone  2-8-8-4  PICS!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks, That is exactly what I figured when I looked at it again last week. Aparently, the upper shell just does not quite fit right on the cab forward base. A little more work needs to be done to get it to fit right. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 9:03:05 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rivarossi Yellowstone 2-8-8-4 PICS!

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    You have a Cab forward base and drive with an altered UP boiler and cab.  The trailing truck is UP.  The lead truck is definitely not AHM.  The stars were probably added by the person making the alterations during the course of construction.  Take the boiler top off and see if it has been sectioned and glued back together.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the photos.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean Naylor wrote: 

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Finally getting around to the pics.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 9:39:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi Yellowstone 2-8-8-4

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello All,

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am seeking some information. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Did Rivarossi make a 2-8-8-4 with small stars centered on the axles of the drivers? 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have one. I know it is Rivarossi (it says it). The front pilot deck is broken off (still have it). I do not recognize the pilot truck (although it is definately Rivarossi). Just never saw one of these before. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    A web search has revealed nothing on it.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks so much in advance.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean



                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10145
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis,  Since I haven't seen the original price for this book mentioned (unless I missed it), you may not be aware of what this book sold for when first published.  This book's list price was $45.95 as shown accompanied with its Library of Congress number (in the preface), and of course that was in 1991.  A bit steep back then, but then, Dave sent me a complimentary issue for my contributions towards it so I didn't need to make the expenditure.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
There was a lot that went into this book, not only in the contributions we submitted, but much went on behind the scenes which the readers cannot even begin to know.  Many of us, most who knew each other anyway from meeting at all the various train shows of the circuit (and through Dave's H0SC&H SIG), spent months going over the manuscripts -- sending corrections, suggestions and modifications (where needed) back and forth to each other and to Dave Spanagel until we all came to an agreement as to what the final versions would look like.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
One of the most difficult parts, and one that took much time, was coming to agreements on the values (Original, Good & Excellent) of each and every piece included in this guide -- which was a MAJOR BEAR in coming to a mutual consensus -- many items still not completely agreed upon in completion, but not for lack of trying.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I know that the average collector is not interested in what went in to making this book, but I just thought I'd take this opportunity to tell you of the extreme care and time we all devoted to detail in the contents of this book.  There are some mistakes as can be expected, one of the most glaring ones being the caption on Page 26 of the 0 scale 4-6-0 being called an H0 scale 4-8-4, but that was due to the printer using the wrong photo.  Some of the engine values were somewhat high, I thought at that time, for 1991, but it has to be realized that some of our estimates were subjective even though we did the best we could.  Today, these values look cheap.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Anyhow, regardless of my enjoyment in being involved with this book, I highly recommend it to any serious Varney collector as it contains almost everything you might want to know about this manufacturer and his products; it was a combined effort of at least 50 of us dedicated collectors and manufacturers, including James Trout (Gordon Varney's graphic artist), Whit Towers (former Editor, NMRA Bulletin), Lewis English (of Bowser Mfg) and Howell Day (of Red Ball), to just name a few.  As like any manufacturer's line of products, additions (such as previously unpublished car numbers, etc.) are often to be found after the fact, but that's to be expected when trying to meet a deadline.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The $85 figure you found one at may not be too far off what one may need to pay for the book, but I still see some used editions today at the scale train swap & sell meets at much lower prices.  I'd advise you to attend as many of these meets as you can, which will also expose you to many other vintage items at usually reasonable prices.  Lots of luck in your search,  Best,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Everyone:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thank you for the comments about the Greenberg Varney book.  After 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> reading your remarks last night I went looking for a copy but cannot 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> find any except one for $85.  A bit steep for my retirement 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> budget.  I do not need a mint copy, so will keep looking.  After the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> commentaries, I really want the book now.  (drat)  I'd pay $50, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> need to hold to that range for now.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> BTW, Jim... tell me more about your, "HO Scale Collector's & 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> History," group.  What's a, "SIG," group?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'd really like to limit my expectations/desires, but I admit the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Varney subject has become all consuming.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> At 07:27 AM 4/27/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     Chuck K,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >           There have been a NUMBER of supplements to the Greenberg 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Varney Guide as new information or Varney products became known. As 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > a member of the HO Scale Collectors & History - SIG group Dave 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Spanagel would include these supplements as part of our newsletter 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > "The Reporting Mark"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >From: <mailto:ckinzer@...>trainliker
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >To: <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 10:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >The Varney Guide is very well done. Also, a supplement was, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >probably still is, available from the author Spanagel. It includes 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >the "Lil Raskel Wreck Proof Train" which is an interesting HO item.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Also, did you know that Varney also made a wood (with some plastic 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >parts) PT boat kit that was about two feet long? I used to have a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >couple of them. And they also made a submarine although I have never seen one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >--- In 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ><mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I recommend having any of the Greenberg HO guides including 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Varney, Athearn and Lionel. The people who took the time to gather 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > and write down the information did a great job. There will always 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > be things that change or show up which may alter some facts but a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > must for a serious collector. Remember the Varney book published around 1986.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > As to price, if I'm not mistaken I paid $39.95 originally for my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > mint copy. It was bought from Dave Spanagel, the author. One neat 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > thing about my copy is it is addressed personally to me and signed 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > by Mr.Spanagel.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I would also like to recommend Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicons, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Volumes I & II. Again published a while back with some flaws in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > information but still an excellent source of information for most 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > vintage HO engines, even brass.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > So I recommend, if you can afford it, to get the Greenberg Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Guide if only for the engines. An added point is that the Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Steam engine pictures in the book, for the most part, are from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > collection of Dr Joe Weber. He lives 6 miles away and I have viewed 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > his large collection of vintage HO, OO, S, O and larger gauge 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > trains. A real treat to see but I don't think he shows them anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > From: Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > To: <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 8:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10146
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Mantua TALGO train motor/drive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Here are pictures of 
the Mantua motor and drive used in the Mantua TALGO train. I let it up to you to 
decide if it is similar to the MU-2 Mantua or a fore runner ( Maybe this 
would be the MU-1 ? )
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          It was easy to take 
out. Two small screws, one on each side of the body,much like later Mantua that 
had a slit on the side and the trucks snapped into that.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Hope it helps 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10147
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Zamac Rot
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Great resource.  I had not heard of Bitter Creek before.  Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm certain the rot will continue with the parts, even if you seal the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> outside of them......... continuing chemical reaction between the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> metals in the alloy of the castings........
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Perhaps you'd like to consider replacing some of the dying parts with  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the new releases of the vintage Red Ball parts? Using those vintage  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> era parts just might suit your needs for the Megow kit..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.bittercreekmodels.com/DETAIL_PARTS.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Milwaukee, Wi 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10148
						From: Earl Poulsen
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Wanted  athearn f7a gear for truck
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Can you show me JUST the gear? I don`t think I have what I normally think of as a gear (with teeth).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Earl
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
LAT 45 degrees, 40 minutes, 6 seconds X LONG Minus 122 degrees, 39 minutes and 46 seconds
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10149
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Mantua TALGO train motor/drive [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The Talgo drive is described as a MU-1 in
 Mantua literature I found
on Hoseeker.net . The F-7 used the MU-2 drive. Similar in but some differences
somewhere, likely in the mounting although both do use a gimball style mount.
My early production (1954) Shark used the same drive but with a very different
mounting system and did not have any designation other than the part number. The
MU-1 looks to be the same motor and gear wise (as does the MU-2) but was the
first use of the gimball style mount.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    When did Tyco go to the poorly designed
drive with the exposed spur gears? I purchased a train set for my son back in
the early -  mid 70’s. Not having been at all involved in the hobby
for some time when I purchased it, I bought a Tyco F-7 set figuring it to be a rtr
version of a true Mantua 
as in years past. Well, once I looked at the drive I did not like what I saw
and sure enough, that thing lasted but a couple of days before the gears became
mis-aligned and made lots of noise but little forward, or backward for that
matter, motion.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009
08:25
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Cc: lennard@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua TALGO
train motor/drive [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    [Attachment(s)
from jim heckard included below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



Nelson,
All,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                          Here
are pictures of the Mantua 
motor and drive used in the Mantua TALGO train. I let it up to you to decide if
it is similar to the MU-2 Mantua or a fore runner ( Maybe this would be
the MU-1 ? )
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                          It
was easy to take out. Two small screws, one on each side of the body,much like
later Mantua 
that had a slit on the side and the trucks snapped into that.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                          Hope
it helps 
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10150
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Bitter Creek
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Mike,  Has Bitter Creek picked up from BC Models, or is this a totally new effort?  Even though I have a ton of n.o.s. Red Ball parts, there is always something one needs for a restoration of filling in of a missing kit part.  And new kits coming, too? Thanks for giving us the "heads up" on this.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm certain the rot will continue with the parts, even if you seal the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> outside of them......... continuing chemical reaction between the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> metals in the alloy of the castings........
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Perhaps you'd like to consider replacing some of the dying parts with  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the new releases of the vintage Red Ball parts? Using those vintage  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> era parts just might suit your needs for the Megow kit..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.bittercreekmodels.com/DETAIL_PARTS.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> On Apr 27, 2009, at 8:58 PM, nvrr49 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I have an old, like before I was born old, Megow gondola kit and all  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > of the metal parts have degraded.  Most parts are still in one  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > piece, but with cracks all over.  Is there any way to save them?   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Coat with epoxy or CA?  Or should I just move on and remake the parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10151
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Kent H., Thanks for showing the original sides for those interested and good to learn you saved them. Having found a nice original kit, I have thought of duplicating it for a running model with the requisite Red Ball castings from my accumulations, some wood shapes from a too far gone Main Line junk box find, along with a photocopy of the original printed sides .  But using another set of original sides might even be better. Please contact me off-page if your original sides are looking for a new home.  Thanks, W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@..." <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It has been a decade since I built it, so I really don't remember a lot about it.  But it came with the original box and paper sides.  I kept the sides, see attached  About the only thing used from the original kit where the feed box, bolsters, ladders, ends and some roof detail.  So more scratch built than a kit.  I have also attached a picture as I modeled it for those that have not looked at my blog.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Say Kent,  Nice vintage modeling in your blog photos! I just pulled out my Megow B&O gon along with their B&O hopper and have to replace the ribs on both as most are long gone, both from a large estate lot.  Tell me about that Stevens Poultry Car, Red Ball is my main freight car interest, having most paper and most kits/models and the only poultry car kit I am familiar with is the early photo-sided Stevens one from the early 1940's. Is yours a later Wabash Valley Era kit, or did M Dale Neton revise the kit later in the 1940's?  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Not sure, but I think that space on my Gilbert gon is where they placed the LNE "fried egg" decal.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10152
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi guys, I just caught this thread..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Would this happen to be the redball car you guys are referring to?? I reall am not sure who makes it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks so much in advance..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:05:18 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Kent H., Thanks for showing the original sides for those interested and good to learn you saved them. Having found a nice original kit, I have thought of duplicating it for a running model with the requisite Red Ball castings from my accumulations, some wood shapes from a too far gone Main Line junk box find, along with a photocopy of the original printed sides . But using another set of original sides might even be better. Please contact me off-page if your original sides are looking for a new home. Thanks, W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "nvrr49@..." <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > It has been a decade since I built it, so I really don't remember a lot about it. But it came with the original box and paper sides. I kept the sides, see attached About the only thing used from the original kit where the
 feed box, bolsters, ladders, ends and some roof detail. So more scratch built than a kit. I have also attached a picture as I modeled it for those that have not looked at my blog.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Say Kent, Nice vintage modeling in your blog photos! I just pulled out my Megow B&O gon along with their B&O hopper and have to replace the ribs on both as most are long gone, both from a large estate lot. Tell me about that Stevens Poultry Car, Red Ball is my main freight car interest, having most paper and most kits/models and the only
 poultry car kit I am familiar with is the early photo-sided Stevens one from the early 1940's. Is yours a later Wabash Valley Era kit, or did M Dale Neton revise the kit later in the 1940's? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Not sure, but I think that space on my Gilbert gon is where they placed the LNE "fried egg" decal. W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10153
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: American Beauty Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                       Don D, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            I know 
you like passenger cars and I have a few (350+ kits and assembled). Over the 
next couple of days I would like to share some with you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I selected American Beauty 
first since they were mentioned somewhere. I don't intend to get into each type 
or railroad name that they made. I don't have the time to research all of 
that. I will just show you this "set" and talk about what materials used, 
construction and A. B. passenger trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         These are 5 passenger cars 
by American Beauty that I built from kits ( Baggage, RPO, Diner, Coach and 
Observation) They have wood floors/skirts all in one, roof and ends. You shape 
the under frame detail,according to their plans, from dowels and pieces of wood 
they provide.Some added detail for the roofs is also supplied depending on the 
type of car. The sides are metal and factory painted/ lithographed or whatever 
they would be called. The observation is a one piece wrap around.  Mantua 
style loop couplers are provided that are a little larger then the normal Mantua 
coupler. The plans with the cars tell you how to mount.( I'm not sure if they 
are a Mantua item.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        The trucks are made by American 
Beauty as I tired to show what is written on the bottom of one. They are very 
similar to Central Valley trucks however these come in pieces in a little A. B. 
box. You assembly these sprung trucks from plans in the box. (HOseeker has these 
plans plus a copy of the car assembly)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        There is more that could be 
added so if you have a specific question ask and I will try to answer. These 
cars come out really nice and I'm even thinking of running them as the passenger 
train on my new layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10154
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Any way of resurrecting the group? It sounds like 
it could still be of value.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:59 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Let me try to explain what the HOSC&H-SIG was. First SIG stands for 
  Special Interest Group and were affiliated with the NMRA ( National Model 
  Railroad Association). I assume there were more then this group. Also this was 
  started at a time before the electronic age of Yahoo groups and 
  computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             
  HOSC&H ( H O Scale Collectors & History ) was a group founded back in 
  the early 80's by John David Spanagel (The author of Greenberg's Guide to 
  Varney Trains ). I was not an original member but became a member not long 
  after that. Membership was open, for a nominal fee of $10 at the start ( for 
  postage and shipping of the newsletter ), to anyone having interest in vintage 
  HO scale. There were 4 newsletters  ( The Reporting Mark ) sent a year 
  with information and pictures that members sent in. It covered a variety of HO 
  companies, their products and history.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            As new facts or 
  vintage items were found they were shared with all group members in the 
  newsletter. That is how new updates for the Greenberg Varney book were 
  shared with members. These 20 years of newsletters were a valuable tool 
  in HO history. A lot of this information came about from almost 300 members. 
  (I know a few are in this Yahoo vintage HO group.)  A lot of, up 
  till then, unknown information became available and was shared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            Sorry 
  to say that this group passed out of existence a few years ago. Dave Spanagel 
  wanted to retire from his job and retire from being the "Moderator" of this 
  group to fully enjoy his "golden years".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Hope that 
  explains HOSC&H-SIG a little.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10155
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Areo Train
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The aerotrain packaging really is attractive, nothing like body by fisher sheetmetal in my book. there's a coach kit on ebay right now with good pix of the box if you haven's seen it before...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    		



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 7:48:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Areo Train

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    John H, Some of that Varney AeroTrain packaging was attractive, using the official General Motors artwork. Now there would be all sorts of license agreements and such, back then, companies appreciated the value of additional publicity and good-will! W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In                                                                                                                                                                                     vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Group,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have a brand new, in the (original) boxes Varney Areo Train Locomotive (non-powered) and two coaches. Maybe three. I'll have to dig through the box later and re-post how many. Maybe someone here is interested? If not, it will also be ebayed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Milwaukee
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10156
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: more vintage HO on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    --------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    		


                                                                                                                                                                                    antique Baldwin By Kemtron brass diesel engine kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
 This seller accepts PayPal 
1
$0.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$8.05
1d 11h 56m
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    		


                                                                                                                                                                                    Brass "HO" Winton (Kit) C&O 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
 This seller accepts PayPal 
14
$101.03
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$20.00 
2d 13h 49m
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    --------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    		


                                                                                                                                                                                    Early Brass - Kit Built Loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
 This seller accepts PayPal 
1
$9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$7.10
4d 09h 53m
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

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                                                                                                                                                                                    Vintage 50s Lindsay L-180 F-7 Power Unit Brass Wheels!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
 This seller accepts PayPal 
-
$0.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$6.00 
2d 08h 49m
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10157
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Sean N.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yes, that is Red Ball's Poultry car.  The first record I have seen of it is in a WW 2 illustrated "Wartime Price List" dated November 1941, and also in the later different undated illustrated Wartime Price List, ( although it may also be in their "Supplement A" to Catalog #3, of late 1941/early 1942 which I do not have).  Without checking to confirm, do not believe it was pictured or listed in their circa 1947 Catalog #4 or after.  This is all during M. Dale Newton's ownership of Red Ball.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W. (Red Ball Models fan!)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi guys, I just caught this thread..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Would this happen to be the redball car you guys are referring to?? I reall am not sure who makes it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks so much in advance..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:05:18 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Kent H., Thanks for showing the original sides for those interested and good to learn you saved them. Having found a nice original kit, I have thought of duplicating it for a running model with the requisite Red Ball castings from my accumulations, some wood shapes from a too far gone Main Line junk box find, along with a photocopy of the original printed sides . But using another set of original sides might even be better. Please contact me off-page if your original sides are looking for a new home. Thanks, W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "nvrr49@" <nvrr49@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > It has been a decade since I built it, so I really don't remember a lot about it. But it came with the original box and paper sides. I kept the sides, see attached About the only thing used from the original kit where the feed box, bolsters, ladders, ends and some roof detail. So more scratch built than a kit. I have also attached a picture as I modeled it for those that have not looked at my blog.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Say Kent, Nice vintage modeling in your blog photos! I just pulled out my Megow B&O gon along with their B&O hopper and have to replace the ribs on both as most are long gone, both from a large estate lot. Tell me about that Stevens Poultry Car, Red Ball is my main freight car interest, having most paper and most kits/models and the only poultry car kit I am familiar with is the early photo-sided Stevens one from the early 1940's. Is yours a later Wabash Valley Era kit, or did M Dale Neton revise the kit later in the 1940's? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Not sure, but I think that space on my Gilbert gon is where they placed the LNE "fried egg" decal. W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10158
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: ++ more vintage HO on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    		
New 

                                                                                                                                                                                    HO SCALE BRASS SWITCHER ENGINE TRAIN PARTS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
 This seller accepts PayPal 
1
$5.95
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$5.00 
Apr-27 17:39
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    		


                                                                                                                                                                                    HO JERRY MARTIN CENTRICLUTCH for Varney Diesels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
 This seller accepts PayPal 
-
$3.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$5.00 
Apr-25 16:33
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
New 

                                                                                                                                                                                    VINTAGE MANTUA STEAM SWITCHER KIT TRAIN ALL METAL
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
 This seller accepts PayPal 
-
$5.95
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$6.00 
Apr-27 17:52
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    		


                                                                                                                                                                                    VINTAGE HO - TRAIN POWER TRUCK
                                                                                                                                                                                     ========================                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 This seller accepts PayPal 
2
$4.25
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$2.00 


                                                                                                                                                                                    4d 06h 20m
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    		


                                                                                                                                                                                    antique Baldwin By Kemtron brass diesel engine kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
 This seller accepts PayPal 
1
$0.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$8.05
1d 11h 56m
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    		


                                                                                                                                                                                    Brass "HO" Winton (Kit) C&O 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
 This seller accepts PayPal 
14
$101.03
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$20.00 
2d 13h 49m
                                                                                                                                                                                    

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                                                                                                                                                                                    Early Brass - Kit Built Loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
 This seller accepts PayPal 
1
$9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$7.10
4d 09h 53m
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

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                                                                                                                                                                                    Vintage 50s Lindsay L-180 F-7 Power Unit Brass Wheels!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
 This seller accepts PayPal 
-
$0.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$6.00 
2d 08h 49m
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10159
						From: trainliker
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Areo Train
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    And, during that time period, Fisher Body meant Harley Earl.  He gets credit for leading both the Train of Tomorrow and Aerotrain styling.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Train of Tomorrow:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.carofthecentury.com/golden_trains.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Aerotrain:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.carofthecentury.com/the_aerotrain.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The aerotrain packaging really is attractive, nothing like body by fisher sheetmetal in my book. there's a coach kit on ebay right now with good pix of the box if you haven's seen it before...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10160
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H.,  The American Beauty's are aptly named, and I can not think of a finer set of vintage cars to run behind some of your classic locomotives.  I might add, that they came in both full length and shortened versions, and that the wood roofs and floor sections were also neatly pre-painted in a silky smooth, satin, but not shiny finish, first class all the way. The full length versions had an ingenious special prefinished black steel coupler mount to permit couplers to negotiate tighter radius curves without sacrificing appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
They did not have any dome cars, so if one modeled a road with them, one would have to include a car from a competitor's line.  I am fortunate to almost have all but one of the PRR full length cars and seven of the 11 different Great Northern Empire Builder series, full length as well, but my vintage layout trackage is not long enough to fully appreciate or accommodate the long length! I don't have many vintage passenger cars, but in just checking, the American Beauty's listed here are about half of the total of all makes!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    Don D, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         I know you like passenger cars and I have a few (350+ kits and assembled). Over the next couple of days I would like to share some with you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      I selected American Beauty first since they were mentioned somewhere. I don't intend to get into each type or railroad name that they made. I don't have the time to research all of that. I will just show you this "set" and talk about what materials used, construction and A. B. passenger trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      These are 5 passenger cars by American Beauty that I built from kits ( Baggage, RPO, Diner, Coach and Observation) They have wood floors/skirts all in one, roof and ends. You shape the under frame detail,according to their plans, from dowels and pieces of wood they provide.Some added detail for the roofs is also supplied depending on the type of car. The sides are metal and factory painted/ lithographed or whatever they would be called. The observation is a one piece wrap around.  Mantua style loop couplers are provided that are a little larger then the normal Mantua coupler. The plans with the cars tell you how to mount.( I'm not sure if they are a Mantua item.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     The trucks are made by American Beauty as I tired to show what is written on the bottom of one. They are very similar to Central Valley trucks however these come in pieces in a little A. B. box. You assembly these sprung trucks from plans in the box. (HOseeker has these plans plus a copy of the car assembly)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     There is more that could be added so if you have a specific question ask and I will try to answer. These cars come out really nice and I'm even thinking of running them as the passenger train on my new layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10161
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: T. O. T. / Mantua's "Talgo"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I went with a train club in the late '70s and they would not let us go through the Aero-Train, but I climbed on anything else I could I gurantee.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Charlie W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    


 



                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

-- 

                                                                                                                                                                                     It's News. It's Reviews. It's Interviews. It's Free. What Are You Waiting For?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
www.movieline.com!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10162
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
 For it's time it was a very good group. I don' think bringing it back 
would matter. Groups like the vintageHO Yahoo group and HOseeker are filling in 
the voids nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
The only downside I see from not resurrecting it is the possibility that some of 
the information will be lost. The thing that really bothers me the most is the 
number of really knowledgeable members who have passed on or do not participate 
in any group. Many of these were my "inner circle". You name a company and I 
could put you in touch with a person or persons who could answer a lot of 
questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              That doesn't mean 
this group lacks anything. It's that sometimes different information came from 
different people.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:53 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Any way of resurrecting the group? It sounds like 
  it could still be of value.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:59 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] 
    HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Let me try to explain what the HOSC&H-SIG was. First SIG stands for 
    Special Interest Group and were affiliated with the NMRA ( National 
    Model Railroad Association) . I assume there were more then this group. 
    Also this was started at a time before the electronic age of Yahoo groups 
    and computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                             HOSC&H ( H O 
    Scale Collectors & History ) was a group founded back in the early 
    80's by John David Spanagel (The author of Greenberg's Guide to Varney 
    Trains ). I was not an original member but became a member not long after 
    that. Membership was open, for a nominal fee of $10 at the start ( for 
    postage and shipping of the newsletter ), to anyone having interest in 
    vintage HO scale. There were 4 newsletters  ( The Reporting Mark ) sent 
    a year with information and pictures that members sent in. It covered a 
    variety of HO companies, their products and history.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            As new facts or 
    vintage items were found they were shared with all group members in the 
    newsletter. That is how new updates for the Greenberg Varney book were 
    shared with members. These 20 years of newsletters were a valuable tool 
    in HO history. A lot of this information came about from almost 300 members. 
    (I know a few are in this Yahoo vintage HO group.)  A lot of, up 
    till then, unknown information became available and was shared. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            
    Sorry to say that this group passed out of existence a few years ago. Dave 
    Spanagel wanted to retire from his job and retire from being the "Moderator" 
    of this group to fully enjoy his "golden years".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                           Hope that 
    explains HOSC&H-SIG a little.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10163
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Did Blue Line have dome cars, seems I have or had 
one in CNW colors.    Roger  Aultman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 12:38 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: American Beauty 
  Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H., The American Beauty's are aptly named, and I can not think of a 
  finer set of vintage cars to run behind some of your classic locomotives. I 
  might add, that they came in both full length and shortened versions, and that 
  the wood roofs and floor sections were also neatly pre-painted in a silky 
  smooth, satin, but not shiny finish, first class all the way. The full length 
  versions had an ingenious special prefinished black steel coupler mount to 
  permit couplers to negotiate tighter radius curves without sacrificing 
  appearance.

                                                                                                                                                                                    They did not have any dome cars, so if one modeled a road 
  with them, one would have to include a car from a competitor's line. I am 
  fortunate to almost have all but one of the PRR full length cars and seven of 
  the 11 different Great Northern Empire Builder series, full length as well, 
  but my vintage layout trackage is not long enough to fully appreciate or 
  accommodate the long length! I don't have many vintage passenger cars, but in 
  just checking, the American Beauty's listed here are about half of the total 
  of all makes! W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Don D, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I know you like passenger cars and I have a few (350+ kits and 
  assembled). Over the next couple of days I would like to share some with 
  you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I selected American Beauty first since they were 
  mentioned somewhere. I don't intend to get into each type or railroad name 
  that they made. I don't have the time to research all of that. I will just 
  show you this "set" and talk about what materials used, construction and A. B. 
  passenger trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > These are 5 passenger cars by American 
  Beauty that I built from kits ( Baggage, RPO, Diner, Coach and Observation) 
  They have wood floors/skirts all in one, roof and ends. You shape the under 
  frame detail,according to their plans, from dowels and pieces of wood they 
  provide.Some added detail for the roofs is also supplied depending on the type 
  of car. The sides are metal and factory painted/ lithographed or whatever they 
  would be called. The observation is a one piece wrap around. Mantua style loop 
  couplers are provided that are a little larger then the normal Mantua coupler. 
  The plans with the cars tell you how to mount.( I'm not sure if they are a 
  Mantua item.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The trucks are made by American Beauty as I 
  tired to show what is written on the bottom of one. They are very similar to 
  Central Valley trucks however these come in pieces in a little A. B. box. You 
  assembly these sprung trucks from plans in the box. (HOseeker has these plans 
  plus a copy of the car assembly)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > There is more that could be 
  added so if you have a specific question ask and I will try to answer. These 
  cars come out really nice and I'm even thinking of running them as the 
  passenger train on my new layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10164
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ++ more vintage HO on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
That looks like a very nicely built Winton 2-6-6-6 you found on Ebay.  It 
looks complete as to the detail from Winton and looks to have all the valve 
gear. If the motor is running (should be a DC-90 "O" Gauge Pittman motor) the 
problem with it not running is in the drive train. The set up inside is a coil 
spring drive shaft to the first/back set of drivers that is soldered to the 
motor shaft and the first geared drive shaft (located in the back set 
of drivers. It then goes to the second set of drivers. If there is any binding 
the coil spring just tightens up like a pretzel and bust or snaps the solder. 
 In my engine I made a slight change to the front set of drivers. I have a 
brass pin under the boiler above the front set of drivers, that they hang 
on, to support the weight when picked up. It still allows for articulation (Not part of the plans I had ). 
Due to this change it was easier to attach the front driver set using a rubber 
piece of hose. It saved me from trying to solder these ends, between the two 
sets of drivers, and making it easier to fix if any problem 
developed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If you, or anyone else, intend to buy it check your bank balance as it might get 
to be a stiff price. Still a nice collectable vintage piece.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 12:54 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] ++ more vintage HO 
  on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      New 
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    HO SCALE BRASS SWITCHER ENGINE TRAIN 
        PARTS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
       This seller accepts PayPal 
      1
      $5.95
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      $5.00 
      Apr-27 17:39
       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    HO JERRY MARTIN CENTRICLUTCH for Varney 
        Diesels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
       This seller accepts PayPal 
      -
      $3.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      $5.00 
      Apr-25 16:33
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      New 
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    VINTAGE MANTUA STEAM SWITCHER KIT TRAIN ALL 
        METAL
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
       This seller accepts PayPal 
      -
      $5.95
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      $6.00 
      Apr-27 17:52
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
              
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
            
              
                                                                                                                                                                                    VINTAGE HO - TRAIN POWER 
              TRUCK
                                                                                                                                                                                     ============ ========= ===                                                                                                                                                                                    		
             This seller accepts PayPal 
            2
            $4.25
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
            $2.00 
            
              
                                                                                                                                                                                    4d 06h 20m
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    antique Baldwin By 
        Kemtron brass diesel engine kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
       This seller accepts PayPal 
      1
      $0.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      $8.05
      1d 11h 56m
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Brass "HO" Winton 
        (Kit) C&O 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
       This seller accepts PayPal 
      14
      $101.03
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      $20.00 
      2d 13h 49m
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ --------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Early Brass - Kit 
        Built Loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
       This seller accepts PayPal 
      1
      $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      $7.10
      4d 09h 53m
       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ --------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Vintage 50s 
        Lindsay L-180 F-7 Power Unit Brass Wheels!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
       This seller accepts PayPal 
      -
      $0.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      $6.00 
      2d 08h 49m
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ 
  --------


                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10165
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                        Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes Blue 
Line had a dome car. You had to add "windows" to the dome. Very painstaking and 
time consuming. Yet the window material Blue Line had in the kit box had things 
like blinds/shades already printed on the clear material depending on just what 
car it was for.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       Down the road a couple of 
days I had planned to show a complete set of 9 different cars already 
built and for the C&NW that are Blue Line passenger 
cars. I have a number of cars still in the boxes too. Maybe since you 
mentioned Blue Line I will do them next. It will be done over  two days or 
at least two different Emails. I will also send the "Shorties" one day made by 
Blue Line
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 2:14 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: American 
  Beauty Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Did Blue Line have dome cars, seems I have or had 
  one in CNW colors.    Roger  
  Aultman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 12:38 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: American 
    Beauty Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H., The American Beauty's are aptly named, and I can not think of a 
    finer set of vintage cars to run behind some of your classic locomotives. I 
    might add, that they came in both full length and shortened versions, and 
    that the wood roofs and floor sections were also neatly pre-painted in a 
    silky smooth, satin, but not shiny finish, first class all the way. The full 
    length versions had an ingenious special prefinished black steel coupler 
    mount to permit couplers to negotiate tighter radius curves without 
    sacrificing appearance.

                                                                                                                                                                                    They did not have any dome cars, so if one 
    modeled a road with them, one would have to include a car from a 
    competitor's line. I am fortunate to almost have all but one of the PRR full 
    length cars and seven of the 11 different Great Northern Empire Builder 
    series, full length as well, but my vintage layout trackage is not long 
    enough to fully appreciate or accommodate the long length! I don't have many 
    vintage passenger cars, but in just checking, the American Beauty's listed 
    here are about half of the total of all makes! W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
    "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Don D, 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I know you like passenger cars and I have a few (350+ kits 
    and assembled). Over the next couple of days I would like to share some with 
    you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I selected American Beauty first since they were 
    mentioned somewhere. I don't intend to get into each type or railroad name 
    that they made. I don't have the time to research all of that. I will just 
    show you this "set" and talk about what materials used, construction and A. 
    B. passenger trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > These are 5 passenger cars by American 
    Beauty that I built from kits ( Baggage, RPO, Diner, Coach and Observation) 
    They have wood floors/skirts all in one, roof and ends. You shape the under 
    frame detail,according to their plans, from dowels and pieces of wood they 
    provide.Some added detail for the roofs is also supplied depending on the 
    type of car. The sides are metal and factory painted/ lithographed or 
    whatever they would be called. The observation is a one piece wrap around. 
    Mantua style loop couplers are provided that are a little larger then the 
    normal Mantua coupler. The plans with the cars tell you how to mount.( I'm 
    not sure if they are a Mantua item.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The trucks are made by 
    American Beauty as I tired to show what is written on the bottom of one. 
    They are very similar to Central Valley trucks however these come in pieces 
    in a little A. B. box. You assembly these sprung trucks from plans in the 
    box. (HOseeker has these plans plus a copy of the car assembly)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    > There is more that could be added so if you have a specific 
    question ask and I will try to answer. These cars come out really nice and 
    I'm even thinking of running them as the passenger train on my new 
    layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10166
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim   Found my two Blue Lines,  dome 
and a observation both CNW got them reasonable from a three rail dealer years 
ago.   Looking forward to your Blue Line pictures.   
Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:35 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: American 
  Beauty Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes 
  Blue Line had a dome car. You had to add "windows" to the dome. Very 
  painstaking and time consuming. Yet the window material Blue Line had in the 
  kit box had things like blinds/shades already printed on the clear material 
  depending on just what car it was for.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       Down the road a couple of 
  days I had planned to show a complete set of 9 different cars 
  already built and for the C&NW that are Blue Line 
  passenger cars. I have a number of cars still in the boxes too. Maybe 
  since you mentioned Blue Line I will do them next. It will be done over  
  two days or at least two different Emails. I will also send the "Shorties" one 
  day made by Blue Line
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 2:14 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: American 
    Beauty Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Did Blue Line have dome cars, seems I have or 
    had one in CNW colors.    Roger  
    Aultman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 12:38 
      PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: American 
      Beauty Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H., The American Beauty's are aptly named, and I can not think of a 
      finer set of vintage cars to run behind some of your classic locomotives. 
      I might add, that they came in both full length and shortened versions, 
      and that the wood roofs and floor sections were also neatly pre-painted in 
      a silky smooth, satin, but not shiny finish, first class all the way. The 
      full length versions had an ingenious special prefinished black steel 
      coupler mount to permit couplers to negotiate tighter radius curves 
      without sacrificing appearance.

                                                                                                                                                                                    They did not have any dome cars, so 
      if one modeled a road with them, one would have to include a car from a 
      competitor's line. I am fortunate to almost have all but one of the PRR 
      full length cars and seven of the 11 different Great Northern Empire 
      Builder series, full length as well, but my vintage layout trackage is not 
      long enough to fully appreciate or accommodate the long length! I don't 
      have many vintage passenger cars, but in just checking, the American 
      Beauty's listed here are about half of the total of all makes! W Jay 
      W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
      "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Don D, 
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I know you like passenger cars and I have a few (350+ 
      kits and assembled). Over the next couple of days I would like to share 
      some with you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I selected American Beauty first since 
      they were mentioned somewhere. I don't intend to get into each type or 
      railroad name that they made. I don't have the time to research all of 
      that. I will just show you this "set" and talk about what materials used, 
      construction and A. B. passenger trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > These are 5 
      passenger cars by American Beauty that I built from kits ( Baggage, RPO, 
      Diner, Coach and Observation) They have wood floors/skirts all in one, 
      roof and ends. You shape the under frame detail,according to their plans, 
      from dowels and pieces of wood they provide.Some added detail for the 
      roofs is also supplied depending on the type of car. The sides are metal 
      and factory painted/ lithographed or whatever they would be called. The 
      observation is a one piece wrap around. Mantua style loop couplers are 
      provided that are a little larger then the normal Mantua coupler. The 
      plans with the cars tell you how to mount.( I'm not sure if they are a 
      Mantua item.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The trucks are made by American Beauty as I 
      tired to show what is written on the bottom of one. They are very similar 
      to Central Valley trucks however these come in pieces in a little A. B. 
      box. You assembly these sprung trucks from plans in the box. (HOseeker has 
      these plans plus a copy of the car assembly)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > There is 
      more that could be added so if you have a specific question ask and I will 
      try to answer. These cars come out really nice and I'm even thinking of 
      running them as the passenger train on my new layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim 
      H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10167
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Lione F-5 (was  Varney Areo Train)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: <Alpvalsys@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 8:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Lione F-5 (was Varney Areo Train)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In a message dated 4/27/2009 10:50:20 PM EDT, idioticyahoo wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Lionel......Lionel......<WBR>the F-5 (halfway between an F-3 and an F-7,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> half chicken wir
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Never seen one like that; only Lionel Fs I can find pics of show louvers 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the side, but with the center part of the upper grillwork different from
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the panels either side of it.  They must've been working from a bad photo 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> or
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> one of a unit being shopped.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> A true F-5, like a late F-3, is indistinguishable from an early F-7; the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> differences were all internal.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe an "F-5" (Phase IV F-3) still has the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
louvers oin the roof if the unit has dynamic brakes, while a true F-7 has 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the fan.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10168
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Lionel F-5  (was  Varney Aero Train)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The Lionel units, the horizontal grilles along the top of the sides, went louver, screen, louver.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
We joked about it being halfway between a 3 and a 7.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Rumor had it that the drawings from EMD they used showed it that way, an as-designed, but not as-built, unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: <Alpvalsys@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 8:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Lione F-5 (was Varney Areo Train)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > In a message dated 4/27/2009 10:50:20 PM EDT, idioticyahoo wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Lionel......Lionel......<WBR>the F-5 (halfway between an F-3 and an F-7,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > half chicken wir
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > -------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Never seen one like that; only Lionel Fs I can find pics of show louvers 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the side, but with the center part of the upper grillwork different from
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the panels either side of it.  They must've been working from a bad photo 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > or
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > one of a unit being shopped.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > A true F-5, like a late F-3, is indistinguishable from an early F-7; the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > differences were all internal.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe an "F-5" (Phase IV F-3) still has the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> louvers oin the roof if the unit has dynamic brakes, while a true F-7 has 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the fan.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10169
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars, Blue Line Competition
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Roger A, Jim H; My American Beauty G.N. Empire Builder cars, half of them built, came with a matching boxed Blue Line Empire Builder "Strata Dome" car!  As I figure it from the magazine ads, American Beauty was the chief competition of Blue Line for modern, smooth sided cars during those years and their the Blue Line kits were also relatively expensive as well, but no sprung trucks. Look forward to seeing yours, Jim.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim   Found my two Blue Lines,  dome and a observation both CNW got them reasonable from a three rail dealer years ago.   Looking forward to your Blue Line pictures.   Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:35 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           Yes Blue Line had a dome car. You had to add "windows" to the dome. Very painstaking and time consuming. Yet the window material Blue Line had in the kit box had things like blinds/shades already printed on the clear material depending on just what car it was for.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      Down the road a couple of days I had planned to show a complete set of 9 different cars already built and for the C&NW that are Blue Line passenger cars. I have a number of cars still in the boxes too. Maybe since you mentioned Blue Line I will do them next. It will be done over  two days or at least two different Emails. I will also send the "Shorties" one day made by Blue Line
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                   Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     From: Roger Aultman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 2:14 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Did Blue Line have dome cars, seems I have or had one in CNW colors.    Roger  Aultman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 12:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Subject: [vintageHO] Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Jim H., The American Beauty's are aptly named, and I can not think of a finer set of vintage cars to run behind some of your classic locomotives. I might add, that they came in both full length and shortened versions, and that the wood roofs and floor sections were also neatly pre-painted in a silky smooth, satin, but not shiny finish, first class all the way. The full length versions had an ingenious special prefinished black steel coupler mount to permit couplers to negotiate tighter radius curves without sacrificing appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       They did not have any dome cars, so if one modeled a road with them, one would have to include a car from a competitor's line. I am fortunate to almost have all but one of the PRR full length cars and seven of the 11 different Great Northern Empire Builder series, full length as well, but my vintage layout trackage is not long enough to fully appreciate or accommodate the long length! I don't have many vintage passenger cars, but in just checking, the American Beauty's listed here are about half of the total of all makes! W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > Don D, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > I know you like passenger cars and I have a few (350+ kits and assembled). Over the next couple of days I would like to share some with you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > I selected American Beauty first since they were mentioned somewhere. I don't intend to get into each type or railroad name that they made. I don't have the time to research all of that. I will just show you this "set" and talk about what materials used, construction and A. B. passenger trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > These are 5 passenger cars by American Beauty that I built from kits ( Baggage, RPO, Diner, Coach and Observation) They have wood floors/skirts all in one, roof and ends. You shape the under frame detail,according to their plans, from dowels and pieces of wood they provide.Some added detail for the roofs is also supplied depending on the type of car. The sides are metal and factory painted/ lithographed or whatever they would be called. The observation is a one piece wrap around. Mantua style loop couplers are provided that are a little larger then the normal Mantua coupler. The plans with the cars tell you how to mount.( I'm not sure if they are a Mantua item.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > The trucks are made by American Beauty as I tired to show what is written on the bottom of one. They are very similar to Central Valley trucks however these come in pieces in a little A. B. box. You assembly these sprung trucks from plans in the box. (HOseeker has these plans plus a copy of the car assembly)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > There is more that could be added so if you have a specific question ask and I will try to answer. These cars come out really nice and I'm even thinking of running them as the passenger train on my new layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10170
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 
Re: Aerotrain

 



                                                                                                                                                                                    Here are two photos of the Aerotrain boxes just for grins
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     <<...>>  <<...>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10171
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John H., Yes, three grins from me, and probably a fourth as those black grease pencil discount price markings look just like the ones made by "Joe" at Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, NJ in the 1960's, the go-to spot for model railroading supplies in suburban Northern NJ back then! It was not too difficult to convince my dad to take a 14 mile drive over there a couple of times a month, even if it was only for a headlight casting and decal!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Here are two photos of the Aerotrain boxes just for grins
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10172
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Looking for drive shafts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Does anyone know where I can pick up a couple of 
drive shafts for Marx HO F7 and GP7s? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10173
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, it started from a Red Ball kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi guys, I just caught this thread..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Would this happen to be the redball car you guys are referring to?? I reall am not sure who makes it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks so much in advance..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:05:18 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Kent H., Thanks for showing the original sides for those interested and good to learn you saved them. Having found a nice original kit, I have thought of duplicating it for a running model with the requisite Red Ball castings from my accumulations, some wood shapes from a too far gone Main Line junk box find, along with a photocopy of the original printed sides . But using another set of original sides might even be better. Please contact me off-page if your original sides are looking for a new home. Thanks, W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "nvrr49@" <nvrr49@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10174
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I like this group, I value the info I pick up from 
here. Sometimes I just like to go looking and searching for myself.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    You mention HOseeker ... I've been on the web site 
a number of times ... even supplied instruction sheets for some Varney Ore 
Cars .... Maybe I'm missing something. How do I do a search? I've got a car that 
I have no idea who makes it. I wanted to search for a 2 bay Frisco hopper but I 
don't see any way of doing that. Is there a quick way of searching without hit 
and miss?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:53 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             
   For it's time it was a very good group. I don' think bringing it back 
  would matter. Groups like the vintageHO Yahoo group and HOseeker are filling 
  in the voids nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             
  The only downside I see from not resurrecting it is the possibility that some 
  of the information will be lost. The thing that really bothers me the most is 
  the number of really knowledgeable members who have passed on or do not 
  participate in any group. Many of these were my "inner circle". You name a 
  company and I could put you in touch with a person or persons who could answer 
  a lot of questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              That doesn't 
  mean this group lacks anything. It's that sometimes different information came 
  from different people.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:53 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
    HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Any way of resurrecting the group? It sounds 
    like it could still be of value.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:59 
      AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] 
      HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      Let me try to explain what the HOSC&H-SIG was. First SIG stands for 
      Special Interest Group and were affiliated with the NMRA ( National 
      Model Railroad Association) . I assume there were more then this 
      group. Also this was started at a time before the electronic age of Yahoo 
      groups and computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                             HOSC&H ( H O 
      Scale Collectors & History ) was a group founded back in 
      the early 80's by John David Spanagel (The author of Greenberg's 
      Guide to Varney Trains ). I was not an original member but became a member 
      not long after that. Membership was open, for a nominal fee of $10 at the 
      start ( for postage and shipping of the newsletter ), to anyone having 
      interest in vintage HO scale. There were 4 newsletters  ( The 
      Reporting Mark ) sent a year with information and pictures that members 
      sent in. It covered a variety of HO companies, their products and 
      history.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                            As new facts 
      or vintage items were found they were shared with all group members in the 
      newsletter. That is how new updates for the Greenberg Varney book 
      were shared with members. These 20 years of newsletters were a 
      valuable tool in HO history. A lot of this information came about from 
      almost 300 members. (I know a few are in this Yahoo vintage HO 
      group.)  A lot of, up till then, unknown information became available 
      and was shared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                            
      Sorry to say that this group passed out of existence a few years ago. Dave 
      Spanagel wanted to retire from his job and retire from being the 
      "Moderator" of this group to fully enjoy his "golden years".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                           Hope 
      that explains HOSC&H-SIG a little.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10175
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I can just see it all now. You walk out of
Hi-Way Hobby with a black eye because you said “Joe, hand me that
Aerotrain dummy”.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of the_plainsman
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009
15:36
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John H., Yes, three grins from me, and probably a fourth
as those black grease pencil discount price markings look just like the ones
made by "Joe" at Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, NJ in the 1960's, the go-to
spot for model railroading supplies in suburban Northern NJ back then! It was
not too difficult to convince my dad to take a 14 mile drive over there a
couple of times a month, even if it was only for a headlight casting and decal!
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10176
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            I know 
of no special way to search other then to go to the name of the company . Once 
in there,especially catalogs, you have to search. Maybe someone else knows a 
better way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 5:04 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I like this group, I value the info I pick up 
  from here. Sometimes I just like to go looking and searching for 
  myself.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    You mention HOseeker ... I've been on the web 
  site a number of times ... even supplied instruction sheets for some 
  Varney Ore Cars .... Maybe I'm missing something. How do I do a search? I've 
  got a car that I have no idea who makes it. I wanted to search for a 2 bay 
  Frisco hopper but I don't see any way of doing that. Is there a quick way of 
  searching without hit and miss?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:53 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
    HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                              For it's time 
    it was a very good group. I don' think bringing it back would matter. Groups 
    like the vintageHO Yahoo group and HOseeker are filling in the voids 
    nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                             The only downside I 
    see from not resurrecting it is the possibility that some of the information 
    will be lost. The thing that really bothers me the most is the number of 
    really knowledgeable members who have passed on or do not participate in any 
    group. Many of these were my "inner circle". You name a company and I could 
    put you in touch with a person or persons who could answer a lot of 
    questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                              That doesn't 
    mean this group lacks anything. It's that sometimes different information 
    came from different people.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:53 
      AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
      HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Any way of resurrecting the group? It sounds 
      like it could still be of value.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:59 
        AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] 
        HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        

                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        Let me try to explain what the HOSC&H-SIG was. First SIG stands for 
        Special Interest Group and were affiliated with the NMRA ( National 
        Model Railroad Association) . I assume there were more then this 
        group. Also this was started at a time before the electronic age of 
        Yahoo groups and computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                             HOSC&H ( H O 
        Scale Collectors & History ) was a group founded back in 
        the early 80's by John David Spanagel (The author of Greenberg's 
        Guide to Varney Trains ). I was not an original member but became a 
        member not long after that. Membership was open, for a nominal fee of 
        $10 at the start ( for postage and shipping of the newsletter ), to 
        anyone having interest in vintage HO scale. There were 4 
        newsletters  ( The Reporting Mark ) sent a year with information 
        and pictures that members sent in. It covered a variety of HO companies, 
        their products and history.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            As new facts 
        or vintage items were found they were shared with all group members in 
        the newsletter. That is how new updates for the Greenberg Varney 
        book were shared with members. These 20 years of newsletters were a 
        valuable tool in HO history. A lot of this information came about from 
        almost 300 members. (I know a few are in this Yahoo vintage HO 
        group.)  A lot of, up till then, unknown information became 
        available and was shared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            
        Sorry to say that this group passed out of existence a few years ago. 
        Dave Spanagel wanted to retire from his job and retire from being the 
        "Moderator" of this group to fully enjoy his "golden 
years".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                           Hope 
        that explains HOSC&H-SIG a little.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10177
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Kind of hit-and-miss.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
You have some ideas what it ISN'T, so you don't look there.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Couplers?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
If X2F's, 1960 and later (roughly).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mantua? 1960's and earlier (roughly).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sometimes, ask a question or two.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Like, "brass roof, cardboard sides, zamac end reefer", the answers will probably steer you to earlier Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I've got three 2-bay hoppers, one zamac, one brass, one cast and HEAVY.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sort of figured out who made all.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I like this group, I value the info I pick up from here. Sometimes I just like to go looking and searching for myself.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You mention HOseeker ... I've been on the web site a number of times ... even supplied instruction sheets for some Varney Ore Cars .... Maybe I'm missing something. How do I do a search? I've got a car that I have no idea who makes it. I wanted to search for a 2 bay Frisco hopper but I don't see any way of doing that. Is there a quick way of searching without hit and miss?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             For it's time it was a very good group. I don' think bringing it back would matter. Groups like the vintageHO Yahoo group and HOseeker are filling in the voids nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            The only downside I see from not resurrecting it is the possibility that some of the information will be lost. The thing that really bothers me the most is the number of really knowledgeable members who have passed on or do not participate in any group. Many of these were my "inner circle". You name a company and I could put you in touch with a person or persons who could answer a lot of questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             That doesn't mean this group lacks anything. It's that sometimes different information came from different people.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     From: My-Yahoo-Groups 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Any way of resurrecting the group? It sounds like it could still be of value.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:59 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Subject: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Hi Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                     Let me try to explain what the HOSC&H-SIG was. First SIG stands for Special Interest Group and were affiliated with the NMRA ( National Model Railroad Association). I assume there were more then this group. Also this was started at a time before the electronic age of Yahoo groups and computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                HOSC&H ( H O Scale Collectors & History ) was a group founded back in the early 80's by John David Spanagel (The author of Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains ). I was not an original member but became a member not long after that. Membership was open, for a nominal fee of $10 at the start ( for postage and shipping of the newsletter ), to anyone having interest in vintage HO scale. There were 4 newsletters  ( The Reporting Mark ) sent a year with information and pictures that members sent in. It covered a variety of HO companies, their products and history.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>               As new facts or vintage items were found they were shared with all group members in the newsletter. That is how new updates for the Greenberg Varney book were shared with members. These 20 years of newsletters were a valuable tool in HO history. A lot of this information came about from almost 300 members. (I know a few are in this Yahoo vintage HO group.)  A lot of, up till then, unknown information became available and was shared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>               Sorry to say that this group passed out of existence a few years ago. Dave Spanagel wanted to retire from his job and retire from being the "Moderator" of this group to fully enjoy his "golden years".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>              Hope that explains HOSC&H-SIG a little.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10178
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Bitter Creek
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm 95-percent sure your guess of the parts coming from BC Models is  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
correct.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I was also really happy to see them still available......
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     On Apr 28, 2009, at 9:22 AM, the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Mike,  Has Bitter Creek picked up from BC Models, or is this a  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> totally new effort?  Even though I have a ton of n.o.s. Red Ball  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> parts, there is always something one needs for a restoration of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> filling in of a missing kit part.  And new kits coming, too? Thanks  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> for giving us the "heads up" on this.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I'm certain the rot will continue with the parts, even if you seal  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> outside of them......... continuing chemical reaction between the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> metals in the alloy of the castings........
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Perhaps you'd like to consider replacing some of the dying parts with
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the new releases of the vintage Red Ball parts? Using those vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> era parts just might suit your needs for the Megow kit..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://www.bittercreekmodels.com/DETAIL_PARTS.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> On Apr 27, 2009, at 8:58 PM, nvrr49 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> I have an old, like before I was born old, Megow gondola kit and all
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> of the metal parts have degraded. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10179
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Lione F-5 (was  Varney Areo Train)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/28/2009 2:59:20 PM EDT, Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    I believe an "F-5" (Phase IV F-3) still has the  louvers oin the roof if the unit has dynamic brakes, while a true F-7 has the fan.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    -----------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Got to thinking about that after my earlier post; I think you're right.  But I fairly sure the F-5 comes AFTER the Ph IV F-3.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10180
						From: David Helber
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Athearn 0-4-2 - Making it practical?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The Athearn 0-4-2 "Little Monster" tank engine was my first HO locomotive, as a teenager back in 1962. I'd like to build a very compact switching/display shelf-layout with mostly vintage equipment, and use an 0-4-2 on it. But it has the reputation of being a very poor performer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Does anyone have experience with the 0-4-2T? What are the main problem-areas and the best ways to correct them? I don't mind spending a little extra time, effort and cash on this engine, for sentimental reasons. I don't mind modifying the engine. I have enough "old-time" model-train skills to add sliding pickup shoes, extra weight, reversing headlights and that sort of thing. I know nothing about DCC though, so assume conventional control.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I recall that the coupler lies so far to the rear of the fixed axle that the sideswing was fairly enormous. Since I want to use it on 15" curves and sharp Peco turnouts or Snap-switches, I'd be interested in hearing any suggestions for minimizing the problems caused by the swing (short of converting to Mantua loop couplers). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I probably should just forget about it and go with a Mantua Little Six, but I'd really like to use the Athearn engine, if possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
     David
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10181
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Greenberg's Guide  Varney question,  Ray, et.al.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray and All:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thank you for your comments.  Good background information that I did 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
not know about how this book was assembled by many 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
contributors.  With all that in mind, I just found one on line for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
$75 and bought it.  I'll figure out the money later, (grin).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I do appreciate what goes into research, writing and producing a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
railroad book.  The first one I had published took me, (largely 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
alone), 15 years, part time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis B. Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 06:27 AM 4/28/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >Dennis,  Since I haven't seen the original price for this book 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>mentioned (unless I missed it), you may not be aware of what this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>book sold for when first published.  This book's list price was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>$45.95 as shown accompanied with its Library of Congress number (in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>the preface), and of course that was in 1991.  A bit steep back 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>then, but then, Dave sent me a complimentary issue for my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>contributions towards it so I didn't need to make the expenditure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>There was a lot that went into this book, not only in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>contributions we submitted, but much went on behind the scenes which 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>the readers cannot even begin to know.  Many of us, most who knew 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>each other anyway from meeting at all the various train shows of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>circuit (and through Dave's H0SC&H SIG), spent months going over the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>manuscripts -- sending corrections, suggestions and modifications 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>(where needed) back and forth to each other and to Dave Spanagel 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>until we all came to an agreement as to what the final versions 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>would look like.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>One of the most difficult parts, and one that took much time, was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>coming to agreements on the values (Original, Good & Excellent) of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>each and every piece included in this guide -- which was a MAJOR 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>BEAR in coming to a mutual consensus -- many items still not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>completely agreed upon in completion, but not for lack of trying.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>I know that the average collector is not interested in what went in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>to making this book, but I just thought I'd take this opportunity to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>tell you of the extreme care and time we all devoted to detail in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>the contents of this book.  There are some mistakes as can be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>expected, one of the most glaring ones being the caption on Page 26 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>of the 0 scale 4-6-0 being called an H0 scale 4-8-4, but that was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>due to the printer using the wrong photo.  Some of the engine values 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>were somewhat high, I thought at that time, for 1991, but it has to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>be realized that some of our estimates were subjective even though 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>we did the best we could.  Today, these values look cheap.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Anyhow, regardless of my enjoyment in being involved with this book, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>I highly recommend it to any serious Varney collector as it contains 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>almost everything you might want to know about this manufacturer and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>his products; it was a combined effort of at least 50 of us 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>dedicated collectors and manufacturers, including James Trout 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>(Gordon Varney's graphic artist), Whit Towers (former Editor, NMRA 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Bulletin), Lewis English (of Bowser Mfg) and Howell Day (of Red 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Ball), to just name a few.  As like any manufacturer's line of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>products, additions (such as previously unpublished car numbers, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>etc.) are often to be found after the fact, but that's to be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>expected when trying to meet a deadline.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>The $85 figure you found one at may not be too far off what one may 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>need to pay for the book, but I still see some used editions today 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>at the scale train swap & sell meets at much lower prices.  I'd 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>advise you to attend as many of these meets as you can, which will 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>also expose you to many other vintage items at usually reasonable 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>prices.  Lots of luck in your search,  Best,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Everyone:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Thank you for the comments about the Greenberg Varney book.  After
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > reading your remarks last night I went looking for a copy but cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > find any except one for $85.  A bit steep for my retirement
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > budget.  I do not need a mint copy, so will keep looking.  After the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > commentaries, I really want the book now.  (drat)  I'd pay $50, but
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > need to hold to that range for now. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10182
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2 - Making it practical?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I've been looking for another one to see if I can do better now than then.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I had two (different internals), have parts of one left.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The main issue for me always was the axle bearings.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
And probably drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
One, if I recall, had a rotating sleeve on the axle, that immediately wore and wobbled.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The other had no sleeves, and immediately wore and wobbled.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'd get rod lock with them all the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
As far as I was concerned then, best bet was a Mantua drive under it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
There was a lot of fore-aft play in the gearbox, the plastic "clips" didn't last very long that held it together. The ball and socket u-joints seemed to not hold up well, probably due to rod lock and gearbox play.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The same parts seemed to work fine in the diseasemals.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The Athearn 0-4-2 "Little Monster" tank engine was my first HO locomotive, as a teenager back in 1962. I'd like to build a very compact switching/display shelf-layout with mostly vintage equipment, and use an 0-4-2 on it. But it has the reputation of being a very poor performer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Does anyone have experience with the 0-4-2T? What are the main problem-areas and the best ways to correct them? I don't mind spending a little extra time, effort and cash on this engine, for sentimental reasons. I don't mind modifying the engine. I have enough "old-time" model-train skills to add sliding pickup shoes, extra weight, reversing headlights and that sort of thing. I know nothing about DCC though, so assume conventional control.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I recall that the coupler lies so far to the rear of the fixed axle that the sideswing was fairly enormous. Since I want to use it on 15" curves and sharp Peco turnouts or Snap-switches, I'd be interested in hearing any suggestions for minimizing the problems caused by the swing (short of converting to Mantua loop couplers). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I probably should just forget about it and go with a Mantua Little Six, but I'd really like to use the Athearn engine, if possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      David
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10183
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve,  If there's ever something you need identified, just feel free to ask here.  Sometimes it's already in the files, but unless you suspect who may have made it, you wouldn't know where to go when you get there to find it.  Quite often, the car side number is the give-away as seldom did one manufacturer copy another's car number reporting mark sequence.  If asking here, it always helps to tell us the material the car is made of. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Without seeing it, the first thing that comes to my mind is Ulrich's cast zamac OH-5 32' Frisco #90883 Twin Offset-Side Hopper, but then that's just a guess.  As for searching, I guess you could start by entering any of the manufacturers that you either know or suspect made the car and go from there.  There weren't that many that made cast hopper cars.  Railmaster made an SL-SF Twin Panel Hopper, but MDC made only Triple Hoppers.  Other manufacturers used different materials.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I like this group, I value the info I pick up from here. Sometimes I just like to go looking and searching for myself.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You mention HOseeker ... I've been on the web site a number of times ... even supplied instruction sheets for some Varney Ore Cars .... Maybe I'm missing something. How do I do a search? I've got a car that I have no idea who makes it. I wanted to search for a 2 bay Frisco hopper but I don't see any way of doing that. Is there a quick way of searching without hit and miss?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             For it's time it was a very good group. I don' think bringing it back would matter. Groups like the vintageHO Yahoo group and HOseeker are filling in the voids nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            The only downside I see from not resurrecting it is the possibility that some of the information will be lost. The thing that really bothers me the most is the number of really knowledgeable members who have passed on or do not participate in any group. Many of these were my "inner circle". You name a company and I could put you in touch with a person or persons who could answer a lot of questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             That doesn't mean this group lacks anything. It's that sometimes different information came from different people.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     From: My-Yahoo-Groups 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Any way of resurrecting the group? It sounds like it could still be of value.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:59 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Subject: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Hi Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                     Let me try to explain what the HOSC&H-SIG was. First SIG stands for Special Interest Group and were affiliated with the NMRA ( National Model Railroad Association). I assume there were more then this group. Also this was started at a time before the electronic age of Yahoo groups and computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                HOSC&H ( H O Scale Collectors & History ) was a group founded back in the early 80's by John David Spanagel (The author of Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains ). I was not an original member but became a member not long after that. Membership was open, for a nominal fee of $10 at the start ( for postage and shipping of the newsletter ), to anyone having interest in vintage HO scale. There were 4 newsletters  ( The Reporting Mark ) sent a year with information and pictures that members sent in. It covered a variety of HO companies, their products and history.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>               As new facts or vintage items were found they were shared with all group members in the newsletter. That is how new updates for the Greenberg Varney book were shared with members. These 20 years of newsletters were a valuable tool in HO history. A lot of this information came about from almost 300 members. (I know a few are in this Yahoo vintage HO group.)  A lot of, up till then, unknown information became available and was shared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>               Sorry to say that this group passed out of existence a few years ago. Dave Spanagel wanted to retire from his job and retire from being the "Moderator" of this group to fully enjoy his "golden years".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>              Hope that explains HOSC&H-SIG a little.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10184
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Aerotrain [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    John 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Still intrested let me see what I can do about it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "John Hagen" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:59:04 -0500

                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Here are two photos of the Aerotrain boxes just for grins
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    <<...>> <<...>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

-- 

                                                                                                                                                                                     It's News. It's Reviews. It's Interviews. It's Free. What Are You Waiting For?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
www.movieline.com!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10185
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Greenberg's Guide  Varney question,  Ray, et.al.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis,  Congrats on acquiring this helpful book.  If you're any kind of Varney fan, I KNOW you're going to find it interesting.  While you may have found one cheaper, there's no telling when.  At least you have it now and can enjoy it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yes, a lot of work goes into such books, but as they say, it's a labor of love.  Looking at it another way, if you just consider each of the approximately 50 contributors as having only 10 years experience in collecting and familiarizing themselves with the manufacturers and their products, its like have a very minimum of 500 years of combine information going into it.  I don't believe there was all that much which was missed.  Am interested to hear which railroad books you wrote, could you supply some titles or subjects?  Working on any others lately?  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray and All:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thank you for your comments.  Good background information that I did 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> not know about how this book was assembled by many 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> contributors.  With all that in mind, I just found one on line for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> $75 and bought it.  I'll figure out the money later, (grin).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I do appreciate what goes into research, writing and producing a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> railroad book.  The first one I had published took me, (largely 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> alone), 15 years, part time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis B. Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> At 06:27 AM 4/28/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Dennis,  Since I haven't seen the original price for this book 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >mentioned (unless I missed it), you may not be aware of what this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >book sold for when first published.  This book's list price was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >$45.95 as shown accompanied with its Library of Congress number (in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >the preface), and of course that was in 1991.  A bit steep back 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >then, but then, Dave sent me a complimentary issue for my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >contributions towards it so I didn't need to make the expenditure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >There was a lot that went into this book, not only in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >contributions we submitted, but much went on behind the scenes which 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >the readers cannot even begin to know.  Many of us, most who knew 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >each other anyway from meeting at all the various train shows of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >circuit (and through Dave's H0SC&H SIG), spent months going over the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >manuscripts -- sending corrections, suggestions and modifications 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >(where needed) back and forth to each other and to Dave Spanagel 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >until we all came to an agreement as to what the final versions 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >would look like.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >One of the most difficult parts, and one that took much time, was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >coming to agreements on the values (Original, Good & Excellent) of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >each and every piece included in this guide -- which was a MAJOR 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >BEAR in coming to a mutual consensus -- many items still not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >completely agreed upon in completion, but not for lack of trying.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >I know that the average collector is not interested in what went in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >to making this book, but I just thought I'd take this opportunity to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >tell you of the extreme care and time we all devoted to detail in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >the contents of this book.  There are some mistakes as can be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >expected, one of the most glaring ones being the caption on Page 26 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >of the 0 scale 4-6-0 being called an H0 scale 4-8-4, but that was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >due to the printer using the wrong photo.  Some of the engine values 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >were somewhat high, I thought at that time, for 1991, but it has to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >be realized that some of our estimates were subjective even though 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >we did the best we could.  Today, these values look cheap.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Anyhow, regardless of my enjoyment in being involved with this book, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >I highly recommend it to any serious Varney collector as it contains 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >almost everything you might want to know about this manufacturer and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >his products; it was a combined effort of at least 50 of us 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >dedicated collectors and manufacturers, including James Trout 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >(Gordon Varney's graphic artist), Whit Towers (former Editor, NMRA 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Bulletin), Lewis English (of Bowser Mfg) and Howell Day (of Red 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Ball), to just name a few.  As like any manufacturer's line of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >products, additions (such as previously unpublished car numbers, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >etc.) are often to be found after the fact, but that's to be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >expected when trying to meet a deadline.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >The $85 figure you found one at may not be too far off what one may 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >need to pay for the book, but I still see some used editions today 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >at the scale train swap & sell meets at much lower prices.  I'd 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >advise you to attend as many of these meets as you can, which will 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >also expose you to many other vintage items at usually reasonable 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >prices.  Lots of luck in your search,  Best,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Hi Everyone:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Thank you for the comments about the Greenberg Varney book.  After
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > reading your remarks last night I went looking for a copy but cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > find any except one for $85.  A bit steep for my retirement
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > budget.  I do not need a mint copy, so will keep looking.  After the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > commentaries, I really want the book now.  (drat)  I'd pay $50, but
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > need to hold to that range for now.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10186
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars [7 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't currently have any American Beauty cars, although I've had one or 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
two in the past, they WERE beautiful.  I'd rank them right up there with MHP 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
in Quality (although I believe the MHP cars were unpainted.  The ones I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
were painted but I think they were a modeler's job)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I may have a pair or two of those trucks in service though, they look 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
familiar.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Cc: <lennard@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 10:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] American Beauty Passenger Cars [7 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
   Don D,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
        I know you like passenger cars and I have a few (350+ kits and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
assembled). Over the next couple of days I would like to share some with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
     I selected American Beauty first since they were mentioned somewhere. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don't intend to get into each type or railroad name that they made. I don't 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
have the time to research all of that. I will just show you this "set" and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
talk about what materials used, construction and A. B. passenger trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
     These are 5 passenger cars by American Beauty that I built from kits 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
( Baggage, RPO, Diner, Coach and Observation) They have wood floors/skirts 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
all in one, roof and ends. You shape the under frame detail,according to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
their plans, from dowels and pieces of wood they provide.Some added detail 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
for the roofs is also supplied depending on the type of car. The sides are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
metal and factory painted/ lithographed or whatever they would be called. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The observation is a one piece wrap around.  Mantua style loop couplers are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
provided that are a little larger then the normal Mantua coupler. The plans 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with the cars tell you how to mount.( I'm not sure if they are a Mantua 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
item.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    The trucks are made by American Beauty as I tired to show what is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
written on the bottom of one. They are very similar to Central Valley trucks 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
however these come in pieces in a little A. B. box. You assembly these 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
sprung trucks from plans in the box. (HOseeker has these plans plus a copy 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
of the car assembly)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    There is more that could be added so if you have a specific question ask 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and I will try to answer. These cars come out really nice and I'm even 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
thinking of running them as the passenger train on my new layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10187
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Gee, I thought this is that group, only
now with photos right away.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of My-Yahoo-Groups
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009
11:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO]
HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



Any
way of resurrecting the group? It sounds like it could still be of value.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28,
2009 7:59 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO]
HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Let me try to explain what the HOSC&H-SIG was. First SIG stands for Special
Interest Group and were affiliated with the NMRA ( National Model Railroad
Association) . I assume there were more then this group. Also this was
started at a time before the electronic age of Yahoo groups and computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                             HOSC&H
( H O Scale Collectors & History ) was a group founded back in
the early 80's by John David Spanagel (The author of Greenberg's Guide to
Varney Trains ). I was not an original member but became a member not long
after that. Membership was open, for a nominal fee of $10 at the start ( for
postage and shipping of the newsletter ), to anyone having interest in vintage
HO scale. There were 4 newsletters  ( The Reporting Mark ) sent a year
with information and pictures that members sent in. It covered a variety of HO
companies, their products and history.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                            As
new facts or vintage items were found they were shared with all group
members in the newsletter. That is how new updates for the Greenberg
Varney book were shared with members. These 20 years of newsletters were a
valuable tool in HO history. A lot of this information came about from almost
300 members. (I know a few are in this Yahoo vintage HO group.)  A
lot of, up till then, unknown information became available and was shared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                            Sorry to say that
this group passed out of existence a few years ago. Dave Spanagel wanted to
retire from his job and retire from being the "Moderator" of this
group to fully enjoy his "golden years".
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                           Hope that explains
HOSC&H-SIG a little.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10188
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more vintage HO on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I see one bid, is it anybody here?  If not I may go for it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] more vintage HO on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-------------------- antique Baldwin By Kemtron brass diesel engine kit 1 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
$0.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 $8.05 1d 11h 56m
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Brass "HO" Winton (Kit) C&O 2-6-6-6 14 $101.03
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 $20.00 2d 13h 49m
                                                                                                                                                                                    
--------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 Early Brass - Kit Built Loco 1 $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 $7.10 4d 09h 53m
                                                                                                                                                                                    
--------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 Vintage 50s Lindsay L-180 F-7 Power Unit Brass Wheels! - $0.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 $6.00 2d 08h 49m
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-------------------- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10189
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2 - Making it practical?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    If you loosen all the plates between the wheels and the motor, then  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
wipe the obvious surfaces that are part of the electrical path with a  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Q-tip that has been wet with an electronic contact cleaner/ 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
conditioner, include the motor mounting screw in this treatment. Also  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
do a very tiny drop of light oil on each of the motor shaft bearings
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Tighten the plates and screws to optimum. Then lube and oil the axles,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
gears, and cranks to personal specs with the light touch of a watch- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
repairman.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Swipe the wheel treads with the electronic conditioner and try out the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
0-4-2.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
You should see that it now runs almost as well as a new Kato. Repeat  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the treatment in 6-12 months.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     On Apr 28, 2009, at 3:57 PM, David Helber wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The Athearn 0-4-2 "Little Monster" tank engine was my first HO  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> locomotive, as a teenager back in 1962. I'd like to build a very  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> compact switching/display shelf-layout with mostly vintage  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> equipment, and use an 0-4-2 on it. But it has the reputation of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> being a very poor performer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Does anyone have experience with the 0-4-2T? What are the main  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> problem-areas and the best ways to correct them? I don't mind  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> spending a little extra time, effort and cash on this engine, for  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> sentimental reasons. I don't mind modifying the engine. I have  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> enough "old-time" model-train skills to add sliding pickup shoes,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> extra weight, reversing headlights and that sort of thing. I know  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> nothing about DCC though, so assume conventional control.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I recall that the coupler lies so far to the rear of the fixed axle  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> that the sideswing was fairly enormous. Since I want to use it on  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 15" curves and sharp Peco turnouts or Snap-switches, I'd be  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> interested in hearing any suggestions for minimizing the problems  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> caused by the swing (short of converting to Mantua loop couplers).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I probably should just forget about it and go with a Mantua Little  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Six, but I'd really like to use the Athearn engine, if possible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10190
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W, I'm still at a crossroads as far as deciding which one of the two, American Beauty or Blue Line, that I like the most, and probably always will be.  One thing's for sure, they're both great models.  They each have finer points to them, in different aspects.  Each manufacturer having at least one other Road than the other.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm not sure I know what you mean about half of them being listed here (where?), unless I missed something.  As there always seems to be an interest in these, I'm trusting you might find a complete list of them interesting.  I wrote an in-depth article on this manufacturer in Spanagel's H0SC&H SIG Reporting Mark, but I can't put my finger on it right now.  I'll just have to use my notes.  I'm looking forward to seeing Jim's pics.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim H.,  The American Beauty's are aptly named, and I can not think of a finer set of vintage cars to run behind some of your classic locomotives.  I might add, that they came in both full length and shortened versions, and that the wood roofs and floor sections were also neatly pre-painted in a silky smooth, satin, but not shiny finish, first class all the way. The full length versions had an ingenious special prefinished black steel coupler mount to permit couplers to negotiate tighter radius curves without sacrificing appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> They did not have any dome cars, so if one modeled a road with them, one would have to include a car from a competitor's line.  I am fortunate to almost have all but one of the PRR full length cars and seven of the 11 different Great Northern Empire Builder series, full length as well, but my vintage layout trackage is not long enough to fully appreciate or accommodate the long length! I don't have many vintage passenger cars, but in just checking, the American Beauty's listed here are about half of the total of all makes!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >    Don D, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >         I know you like passenger cars and I have a few (350+ kits and assembled). Over the next couple of days I would like to share some with you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >      I selected American Beauty first since they were mentioned somewhere. I don't intend to get into each type or railroad name that they made. I don't have the time to research all of that. I will just show you this "set" and talk about what materials used, construction and A. B. passenger trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >      These are 5 passenger cars by American Beauty that I built from kits ( Baggage, RPO, Diner, Coach and Observation) They have wood floors/skirts all in one, roof and ends. You shape the under frame detail,according to their plans, from dowels and pieces of wood they provide.Some added detail for the roofs is also supplied depending on the type of car. The sides are metal and factory painted/ lithographed or whatever they would be called. The observation is a one piece wrap around.  Mantua style loop couplers are provided that are a little larger then the normal Mantua coupler. The plans with the cars tell you how to mount.( I'm not sure if they are a Mantua item.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     The trucks are made by American Beauty as I tired to show what is written on the bottom of one. They are very similar to Central Valley trucks however these come in pieces in a little A. B. box. You assembly these sprung trucks from plans in the box. (HOseeker has these plans plus a copy of the car assembly)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     There is more that could be added so if you have a specific question ask and I will try to answer. These cars come out really nice and I'm even thinking of running them as the passenger train on my new layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10191
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide  Varney question,  Ray, et.al.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Logging Railroads in Skagit County, NWSL, 1989.  1,000+ miles of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
logging railroad in one county mapped; plus fold-out map; tip-out 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
photos. 294 pages.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The Climax Locomotive, Oso Publishing Company, 2001, 497 pages;  Big 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
headache.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Am interested in doing something on the rail equipment built by 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Skagit Steel & Iron Works, but don't know where that's going yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
May do something more on Bear Harbor Lumber Company, northern 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mendocino County, California, but the 45 page article I did for Tall 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Timber Short Lines covered a lot of it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Not sure I'm young enough to want to take on another big book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yes, I'm looking forward to getting the Varney book.  I'm more than, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"some kind of a Varney fan," because the Casey Jones was my first 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
model locomotive.  Interest was dormant until awakened by this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
List.  Which could be good.....or, "bad."  (grin)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Odessa/Ritzville, E WA state
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 03:54 PM 4/28/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >Dennis,  Congrats on acquiring this helpful book.  If you're any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>kind of Varney fan, I KNOW you're going to find it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>interesting.  While you may have found one cheaper, there's no 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>telling when.  At least you have it now and can enjoy it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Yes, a lot of work goes into such books, but as they say, it's a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>labor of love.  Looking at it another way, if you just consider each 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>of the approximately 50 contributors as having only 10 years 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>experience in collecting and familiarizing themselves with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>manufacturers and their products, its like have a very minimum of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>500 years of combine information going into it.  I don't believe 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>there was all that much which was missed.  Am interested to hear 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>which railroad books you wrote, could you supply some titles or 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>subjects?  Working on any others lately?  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Ray and All:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Thank you for your comments.  Good background information that I did
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > not know about how this book was assembled by many
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > contributors.  With all that in mind, I just found one on line for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > $75 and bought it.  I'll figure out the money later, (grin).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I do appreciate what goes into research, writing and producing a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > railroad book.  The first one I had published took me, (largely
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > alone), 15 years, part time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dennis B. Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > At 06:27 AM 4/28/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Dennis,  Since I haven't seen the original price for this book
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >mentioned (unless I missed it), you may not be aware of what this
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >book sold for when first published.  This book's list price was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >$45.95 as shown accompanied with its Library of Congress number (in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >the preface), and of course that was in 1991.  A bit steep back
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >then, but then, Dave sent me a complimentary issue for my
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >contributions towards it so I didn't need to make the expenditure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >There was a lot that went into this book, not only in the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >contributions we submitted, but much went on behind the scenes which
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >the readers cannot even begin to know.  Many of us, most who knew
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >each other anyway from meeting at all the various train shows of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >circuit (and through Dave's H0SC&H SIG), spent months going over the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >manuscripts -- sending corrections, suggestions and modifications
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >(where needed) back and forth to each other and to Dave Spanagel
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >until we all came to an agreement as to what the final versions
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >would look like.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >One of the most difficult parts, and one that took much time, was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >coming to agreements on the values (Original, Good & Excellent) of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >each and every piece included in this guide -- which was a MAJOR
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >BEAR in coming to a mutual consensus -- many items still not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >completely agreed upon in completion, but not for lack of trying.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >I know that the average collector is not interested in what went in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >to making this book, but I just thought I'd take this opportunity to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >tell you of the extreme care and time we all devoted to detail in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >the contents of this book.  There are some mistakes as can be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >expected, one of the most glaring ones being the caption on Page 26
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >of the 0 scale 4-6-0 being called an H0 scale 4-8-4, but that was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >due to the printer using the wrong photo.  Some of the engine values
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >were somewhat high, I thought at that time, for 1991, but it has to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >be realized that some of our estimates were subjective even though
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >we did the best we could.  Today, these values look cheap.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Anyhow, regardless of my enjoyment in being involved with this book,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >I highly recommend it to any serious Varney collector as it contains
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >almost everything you might want to know about this manufacturer and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >his products; it was a combined effort of at least 50 of us
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >dedicated collectors and manufacturers, including James Trout
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >(Gordon Varney's graphic artist), Whit Towers (former Editor, NMRA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Bulletin), Lewis English (of Bowser Mfg) and Howell Day (of Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Ball), to just name a few.  As like any manufacturer's line of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >products, additions (such as previously unpublished car numbers,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >etc.) are often to be found after the fact, but that's to be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >expected when trying to meet a deadline.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >The $85 figure you found one at may not be too far off what one may
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >need to pay for the book, but I still see some used editions today
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >at the scale train swap & sell meets at much lower prices.  I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >advise you to attend as many of these meets as you can, which will
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >also expose you to many other vintage items at usually reasonable
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >prices.  Lots of luck in your search,  Best,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Hi Everyone:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Thank you for the comments about the Greenberg Varney book.  After
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > reading your remarks last night I went looking for a copy but cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > find any except one for $85.  A bit steep for my retirement
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > budget.  I do not need a mint copy, so will keep looking.  After the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > commentaries, I really want the book now.  (drat)  I'd pay $50, but
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > need to hold to that range for now.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.6/2084 - Release Date: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>04/28/09 06:15:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10192
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
Is your hopper plastic or cast metal?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
My-Yahoo-Groups wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I like this group, I value the info
I pick up from here. Sometimes I just like to go looking and searching
for myself.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    You mention HOseeker ... I've been
on the web site a number of times ... even supplied instruction sheets
for some Varney Ore Cars .... Maybe I'm missing something. How do I do
a search? I've got a car that I have no idea who makes it. I wanted to
search for a 2 bay Frisco hopper but I don't see any way of doing that.
Is there a quick way of searching without hit and miss?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent:
Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject:
Re: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                              For it's time it was a
very good group. I don' think bringing it back would matter. Groups
like the vintageHO Yahoo group and HOseeker are filling in the voids
nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                             The only downside I see
from not resurrecting it is the possibility that some of the
information will be lost. The thing that really bothers me the most is
the number of really knowledgeable members who have passed on or do not
participate in any group. Many of these were my "inner circle". You
name a company and I could put you in touch with a person or persons
who could answer a lot of questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                              That doesn't mean this
group lacks anything. It's that sometimes different information came
from different people.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent:
Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject:
Re: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Any way of resurrecting the
group? It sounds like it could still be of value.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent:
Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:59 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject:
[vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        

                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Let me try to
explain what the HOSC&H-SIG was. First SIG stands for Special
Interest Group and were affiliated with the NMRA ( National Model
Railroad Association) . I assume there were more then this group.
Also this was started at a time before the electronic age of Yahoo
groups and computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                             HOSC&H ( H O
Scale Collectors & History ) was a group founded back in the early
80's by John David Spanagel (The author of Greenberg's Guide to Varney
Trains ). I was not an original member but became a member not long
after that. Membership was open, for a nominal fee of $10 at the start
( for postage and shipping of the newsletter ), to anyone having
interest in vintage HO scale. There were 4 newsletters  ( The Reporting
Mark ) sent a year with information and pictures that members sent in.
It covered a variety of HO companies, their products and history.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            As new facts or
vintage items were found they were shared with all group members in the
newsletter. That is how new updates for the Greenberg Varney book were
shared with members. These 20 years of newsletters were a valuable tool
in HO history. A lot of this information came about from almost 300
members. (I know a few are in this Yahoo vintage HO group.)  A lot of,
up till then, unknown information became available and was shared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            Sorry to say that this
group passed out of existence a few years ago. Dave Spanagel wanted to
retire from his job and retire from being the "Moderator" of this group
to fully enjoy his "golden years".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                           Hope that explains
HOSC&H-SIG a little.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10193
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: more vintage HO on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I prefer that partly built 2-8-2 ..........
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     On Apr 28, 2009, at 6:08 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I see one bid, is it anybody here?  If not I may go for it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -------------------- antique Baldwin By Kemtron brass diesel engine  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> kit 1
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> $0.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> $8.05 1d 11h 56m
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Brass "HO" Winton (Kit) C&O 2-6-6-6 14 $101.03
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> $20.00 2d 13h 49m
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Early Brass - Kit Built Loco 1 $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> $7.10 4d 09h 53m
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Vintage 50s Lindsay L-180 F-7 Power Unit Brass Wheels! - $0.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> $6.00 2d 08h 49m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10194
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: was, HOSC&H-SIG, now Searching for Model ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Steve, and All! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Like Ray F W and "curmugeon" I use a sort of "decision tree" when trying to identify a model, i.e. general construction; if hard diecast zamac metal, than these companies, if diecast lead based metal than these; if embossed thin metal or card, look at these.  But it takes a while to get to know the various firms, too, what model making processes they used at various times, which comes with time.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I still use eBay as a tool, too.  Entering in Frisco and hopper and see what turns up, both completed sales and current, and may do it for a few weeks, as patience comes in handy.  HO Seeker has grown tremendously over the past few years for older vintage models; Tony Cook's website is good for newer, but out of production r-t-r plastic lines. But one has to have a few good leads to cut down on the search time.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
If you are in a part of the country with frequent train shows, there is no substitute for being able to pick up many different models and get a feel for early Varney and Mantua, for comparing Ulrich's and MDC's work, plus some of the sellers are knowledgible willing to share; years ago, I found one who happened to be a proofreader of the Varney Guide and though having moved from my area, still sends his annual list.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Even if you don't have much in the way of your own "database" of old catalogs, instructions and magazines, having a few old catalogs may give you a hint and a direction to follow.  The Varney Guide helped me identify another company's similar card-sided flat car that had me stumped a few years ago as at least three manufacturers had almost identical models.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And like those before me have said, a most important resource is the knowledge of the many here who are ready and willing to help out and enjoy the challenge. I have found that I learn a lot in the hunt, too, as I work out the problem to be solved.  That must have been evident in my and Jim H's step by step exchange of a half dozen or so messages this past weekend on what we both believe are likely GARCO FT locomotive castings.  But it was those very exchanges with Jim that pretty much settled that almost 15 year old question I could not seem to answer on my own, plus I enjoyed the process.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And the speed that information can be found here is also amazing as when I posted the photos of the "Oak Valley" models and within less than 24 hours, we knew who the Oak Valley's brass hat was. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Speaking of Oak Valley, for the past several weeks I have been trying to track down the manufacturer of the 40' flat car kit that was used to build the Oak Valley car, as it is missing one cast white metal side I am looking to replace.  Not one of the more than a dozen Red Ball flat car varieties, not Walthers, nor a shortened AC/LW/YOHP, I'm thinking possibly Sterling (or a Selly copy), but don't have one of those yet.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
But I'm having fun tracking one of those down and that is part of my enjoyment of Vintage HO.  Maybe I'll end up making a list of Sterling kits, too, as I had none until this past winter, now I have the wedge plow, pickle car and a neatly assembled helium car. Who knows what's next!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10195
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Blue Line Passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           Since I have 
free time right now I took pictures of  5 of the Blue Line full size 
passenger cars. I will send the other 4 types in about an hour. I have not dug 
out the books to identify what each car is. I know that all 9 are different. 
Perhaps someone with knowledge of the real thing can ID what each car was called 
by the window pattern and save me some time. My tired old legs won't let me keep 
going up and down to the basement.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           These cars are 
all metal and factory painted / lithographed / baked enamel. Not sure what to 
they are called. They came in a number of road names. This is the only complete 
9 car set I have although I also have an 8 car Pennsy set and others in kit 
form. In some of the cars you can see window material that is pre 
printed with curtains/drapes, whatever. Each kit, depending on the type of 
car had the window material with it. It slide into"grooves in the sides of the 
cars.The cars assembled pretty easy except for the Observation. The roof, sides 
and floors had "grooves" that joined the parts together when you slide one piece 
into the other. I hope I'm explaining that so it could be understood. Depending 
on the type of car you got plastic roof details to add.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           Blue Line had 
their own trucks, already assembled and packed two in a box. I'm trying to 
remember if they came in the kit but can't be sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            I feel 
these Blue Line cars are pretty good looking and show off nice. The one part I 
didn't like was that they gave you a piece of balsa that you had to shape and 
fit into the ends of the cars.  It was extremely hard to make them fit 
decent (In my opinion) because of the slide together construction I mentioned 
earlier. For one of the few times in my vintage collection I took the 
liberty of buying metal ends and installing them on this set to make them look 
better. I will show you a picture with the last 4 cars of this. However I left 
the balsa piece with the unbuilt kits
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            It's 
late and I'm trying to remember to much just "off the top of my head" If need be 
I will send close-ups of the trucks and the slide together construction after I 
show the last 4 cars. Tomorrow I will show you a mint boxed set of 
Blue Line shorty cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10196
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Poor wording on my part; meant to convey that of my 30 or so vintage HO model passenger cars, half of them were the 14 American Beauty's, the PRR and GN models I mentioned in the paragraph ("listed here" was the poor wording)!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Finding the unbuilt kit for the full legnth American Beauty GN Empire Builder "Pendulum" Chair Car in that stack of GN kits has to be one of the best of many good finds I have ever had at a train show.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W, I'm still at a crossroads as far as deciding which one of the two, American Beauty or Blue Line, that I like the most, and probably always will be.  One thing's for sure, they're both great models.  They each have finer points to them, in different aspects.  Each manufacturer having at least one other Road than the other.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm not sure I know what you mean about half of them being listed here (where?), unless I missed something.  As there always seems to be an interest in these, I'm trusting you might find a complete list of them interesting.  I wrote an in-depth article on this manufacturer in Spanagel's H0SC&H SIG Reporting Mark, but I can't put my finger on it right now.  I'll just have to use my notes.  I'm looking forward to seeing Jim's pics.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Jim H.,  The American Beauty's are aptly named, and I can not think of a finer set of vintage cars to run behind some of your classic locomotives.  I might add, that they came in both full length and shortened versions, and that the wood roofs and floor sections were also neatly pre-painted in a silky smooth, satin, but not shiny finish, first class all the way. The full length versions had an ingenious special prefinished black steel coupler mount to permit couplers to negotiate tighter radius curves without sacrificing appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > They did not have any dome cars, so if one modeled a road with them, one would have to include a car from a competitor's line.  I am fortunate to almost have all but one of the PRR full length cars and seven of the 11 different Great Northern Empire Builder series, full length as well, but my vintage layout trackage is not long enough to fully appreciate or accommodate the long length! I don't have many vintage passenger cars, but in just checking, the American Beauty's listed here are about half of the total of all makes!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >    Don D, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >         I know you like passenger cars and I have a few (350+ kits and assembled). Over the next couple of days I would like to share some with you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >      I selected American Beauty first since they were mentioned somewhere. I don't intend to get into each type or railroad name that they made. I don't have the time to research all of that. I will just show you this "set" and talk about what materials used, construction and A. B. passenger trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >      These are 5 passenger cars by American Beauty that I built from kits ( Baggage, RPO, Diner, Coach and Observation) They have wood floors/skirts all in one, roof and ends. You shape the under frame detail,according to their plans, from dowels and pieces of wood they provide.Some added detail for the roofs is also supplied depending on the type of car. The sides are metal and factory painted/ lithographed or whatever they would be called. The observation is a one piece wrap around.  Mantua style loop couplers are provided that are a little larger then the normal Mantua coupler. The plans with the cars tell you how to mount.( I'm not sure if they are a Mantua item.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >     The trucks are made by American Beauty as I tired to show what is written on the bottom of one. They are very similar to Central Valley trucks however these come in pieces in a little A. B. box. You assembly these sprung trucks from plans in the box. (HOseeker has these plans plus a copy of the car assembly)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >     There is more that could be added so if you have a specific question ask and I will try to answer. These cars come out really nice and I'm even thinking of running them as the passenger train on my new layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10197
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: The American Beauty Lines  Listing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck H. et al,  Chuck, hope you ready to make a spread sheet of this for the files.  These metal passenger cars were manufactured by American Railroad Models, Inc.  They changed addresses at least once that I know of, starting at 16553 Fielding Avenue, Detroit 19 MIchigan and ending at P.O. Box 1143, Allen Park, Michigan.  All came with their high quality 4-wheel sprung passenger car truck kits.  Most all were factory painted and lettered, except for the later production "Do-It-Yourself" kits. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * AMERICAN BEAUTY H0 LINES * * * * * * * * 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
* * * * * 85' Streamlined Passenger Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Pennsylvania Railroad Series --
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
PE-1  Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
PE-2  Mail Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
PE-3  Combination Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
PE-4  Day Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
PE-5  Day Nite Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
PE-6  Dining Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
PE-7  Roomette
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
PE-8  Observation Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
New York Central Series -- Twentieth Century Limited
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
NC-1  Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
NC-2  Mail Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
NC-3  Combination Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
NC-4  Day Coach 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
NC-5  Day Nite Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
NC-6  Roomette "Park Terrace"
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
NC-6A Pullman -- Roomette
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
NC-6B Pullman -- Bedroom Compartment
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
NC-7  Dining Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
NC-8  Observation Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Illinois Central Railroad Series --
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
IC-1  Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
IC-2  Mail Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
IC-3  Combinataion Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
IC-4  Day Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
IC-5  Day Nite Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
IC-6  Dining Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
IC-7  Roomette
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
IC-8  Observation Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chicago and Northwestern Series --
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
CN-1  Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
CN-2  Mail Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
CN-3  Combination Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
CN-4  Day Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
CN-5  Day Nite Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
CN-6  Dining Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
CN-7  Roomette
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
CN-8  Observation Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Union Pacific Railroad Series --
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
UP-1  Baggage #5601
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
UP-2  Mail Storage #5700
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
UP-3  Mail Baggage #5801
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
UP-4 Baggage Dormitory #6000
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
UP-5  Day Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
UP-6  Day Nite Coach 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
UP-7  Dining Car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
UP-8  Pullman "Western Sea"
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
UP-8A Pullman (unnamed)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
UP-8B Compartment Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
UP-9  Observation Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Great Northern -- Empire Builder
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
GN-1  Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
GN-2  Mail Baggage Car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
GN-3  Baggage Dormitory
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
GN-4  Day Coach #1210
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
GN-4A Day Coach (not numbered)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
GN-5  Day Nite Coach #1215
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
GN-5A Day Nite Coach (not numbered)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
GN-6  Roomette #1260 "Gunsight Pass"
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
GN-6A Bedroom - Roomette
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
GN-6B Bedroom Compartment
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
GN-7  Dining Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
GN-8  Pendulum Chair Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
GN-9  Observation Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Southern Pacific Daylight Series --
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SP-1  Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SP-2  Mail Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SP-3  Baggage Coach/Combine
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SP-4  Day Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SP-5  Day Night Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SP-6  Dining Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SP-7  Lounge Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SP-8  Pullman
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SP-9  Observation Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chesapeake and Ohio Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
CO-1  Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
CO-2  Mail Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
CO-3  Combination Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
CO-4  Day Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
CO-5  Day Nite Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
CO-6  Dining Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
CO-7  Roomette 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
CO-8  Observatiobn Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
DO-IT-YOURSELF Streamliner Series --
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Came as five different series, each with their own distinctive configurations of smooth and embossed sheets of corregations on thin aluminum foil overlay strips (having pressure sensitive adhesive, and mounted on paper backing) to be applied to the ready-buffed sides ready for painting.  Available as Baggage, Mail Baggage, Combination, Day Coach,  Day/Nite Coach, Dining Car, Pullman, Lounge Car and Observation. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Next post -- 65' Shorties listing.  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10198
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars [7 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Don D, I think MHP/Wright Enterprises followed Blue Line and American Beauty time wise, as MHP was first class in the 1960's when I began modeling and reading the ads and letters?  I remember they had a model of an SP Articulated two section car that facinated me. W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I don't currently have any American Beauty cars, although I've had one or 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> two in the past, they WERE beautiful.  I'd rank them right up there with MHP 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in Quality (although I believe the MHP cars were unpainted.  The ones I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> were painted but I think they were a modeler's job)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I may have a pair or two of those trucks in service though, they look 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> familiar.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10199
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Blue Line Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                            The 4 
passenger car pictures are the remaining styles of full size passenger cars Blue 
Line made. I'm sorry one picture far from perfect (If for any reason you need 
that one better I'll retake it)  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            The 5th 
picture is the type of metal ends I added, to this set only, to replace the 
balsa ends you had to make. The 6th picture shows you a close up of the Blue 
Line truck and the piece of balsa you got to make the ends. Plans are on 
HOseeker.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             I 
did forget to mention you got some wire to make the grabs, handrails and 
footholds. Hope the pictures helpful. Will answer any questions I can and 
correct any mistakes I might have made. It's getting late and Ray F W knows this 
is when I make mistakes trying to type and hurry entering 
information.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10200
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: American Beauty Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Okay Jay, sorry if I didn't quite understand you, but you confused me a bit; thanks for the clarification.  Any of these American Beauty cars are just nice models to have.  Yes, The GN Pendulum Car is really nice, I had to get two of them.  That was way before they became much sought after which I understand now are extremely/highly collectable -- and no wonder because they're so unique.  I see you must have seven of the Pennsy cars (there are 8), but if you have seven of the GN Empire Builders, you're still missing six -- there were 13 different GN cars.  Always fun to come across a new find, but they're getting harder to get, which I don't need to tell you.  Best,  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Poor wording on my part; meant to convey that of my 30 or so vintage HO model passenger cars, half of them were the 14 American Beauty's, the PRR and GN models I mentioned in the paragraph ("listed here" was the poor wording)!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Finding the unbuilt kit for the full length American Beauty GN Empire Builder "Pendulum" Chair Car in that stack of GN kits has to be one of the best of many good finds I have ever had at a train show.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > W Jay W, I'm still at a crossroads as far as deciding which one of the two, American Beauty or Blue Line, that I like the most, and probably always will be.  One thing's for sure, they're both great models.  They each have finer points to them, in different aspects.  Each manufacturer having at least one other Road than the other.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I'm not sure I know what you mean about half of them being listed here (where?), unless I missed something.  As there always seems to be an interest in these, I'm trusting you might find a complete list of them interesting.  I wrote an in-depth article on this manufacturer in Spanagel's H0SC&H SIG Reporting Mark, but I can't put my finger on it right now.  I'll just have to use my notes.  I'm looking forward to seeing Jim's pics.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Jim H.,  The American Beauty's are aptly named, and I can not think of a finer set of vintage cars to run behind some of your classic locomotives.  I might add, that they came in both full length and shortened versions, and that the wood roofs and floor sections were also neatly pre-painted in a silky smooth, satin, but not shiny finish, first class all the way. The full length versions had an ingenious special prefinished black steel coupler mount to permit couplers to negotiate tighter radius curves without sacrificing appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > They did not have any dome cars, so if one modeled a road with them, one would have to include a car from a competitor's line.  I am fortunate to almost have all but one of the PRR full length cars and seven of the 11 different Great Northern Empire Builder series, full length as well, but my vintage layout trackage is not long enough to fully appreciate or accommodate the long length! I don't have many vintage passenger cars, but in just checking, the American Beauty's listed here are about half of the total of all makes!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >    Don D, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >         I know you like passenger cars and I have a few (350+ kits and assembled). Over the next couple of days I would like to share some with you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >      I selected American Beauty first since they were mentioned somewhere. I don't intend to get into each type or railroad name that they made. I don't have the time to research all of that. I will just show you this "set" and talk about what materials used, construction and A. B. passenger trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >      These are 5 passenger cars by American Beauty that I built from kits ( Baggage, RPO, Diner, Coach and Observation) They have wood floors/skirts all in one, roof and ends. You shape the under frame detail,according to their plans, from dowels and pieces of wood they provide.Some added detail for the roofs is also supplied depending on the type of car. The sides are metal and factory painted/ lithographed or whatever they would be called. The observation is a one piece wrap around.  Mantua style loop couplers are provided that are a little larger then the normal Mantua coupler. The plans with the cars tell you how to mount.( I'm not sure if they are a Mantua item.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >     The trucks are made by American Beauty as I tired to show what is written on the bottom of one. They are very similar to Central Valley trucks however these come in pieces in a little A. B. box. You assembly these sprung trucks from plans in the box. (HOseeker has these plans plus a copy of the car assembly)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >     There is more that could be added so if you have a specific question ask and I will try to answer. These cars come out really nice and I'm even thinking of running them as the passenger train on my new layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10201
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: O.T., was, Greenberg's Guide  Varney question,  Ray, et.al.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis,  Nothing like taking on an ambitious job, eh?  Sounds like some real good reading, those Climax engines are fascinating.  I can appreciate the time and work that must have gone into them.  The closest thing we have to that here in the East are the Shays on the Cass Scenic Railroad in West Virginia.  I DO enjoy the narrow gauge steam on the East Broad Top, though.  They really pique my interest.  Best,  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Logging Railroads in Skagit County, NWSL, 1989.  1,000+ miles of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> logging railroad in one county mapped; plus fold-out map; tip-out 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> photos. 294 pages.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The Climax Locomotive, Oso Publishing Company, 2001, 497 pages;  Big 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> headache.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Am interested in doing something on the rail equipment built by 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Skagit Steel & Iron Works, but don't know where that's going yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> May do something more on Bear Harbor Lumber Company, northern 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mendocino County, California, but the 45 page article I did for Tall 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Timber Short Lines covered a lot of it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Not sure I'm young enough to want to take on another big book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yes, I'm looking forward to getting the Varney book.  I'm more than, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "some kind of a Varney fan," because the Casey Jones was my first 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> model locomotive.  Interest was dormant until awakened by this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> List.  Which could be good.....or, "bad."  (grin)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Odessa/Ritzville, E WA state
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> At 03:54 PM 4/28/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Dennis,  Congrats on acquiring this helpful book.  If you're any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >kind of Varney fan, I KNOW you're going to find it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >interesting.  While you may have found one cheaper, there's no 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >telling when.  At least you have it now and can enjoy it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Yes, a lot of work goes into such books, but as they say, it's a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >labor of love.  Looking at it another way, if you just consider each 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >of the approximately 50 contributors as having only 10 years 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >experience in collecting and familiarizing themselves with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >manufacturers and their products, its like have a very minimum of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >500 years of combine information going into it.  I don't believe 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >there was all that much which was missed.  Am interested to hear 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >which railroad books you wrote, could you supply some titles or 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >subjects?  Working on any others lately?  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Ray and All:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Thank you for your comments.  Good background information that I did
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > not know about how this book was assembled by many
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > contributors.  With all that in mind, I just found one on line for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $75 and bought it.  I'll figure out the money later, (grin).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I do appreciate what goes into research, writing and producing a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > railroad book.  The first one I had published took me, (largely
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > alone), 15 years, part time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Dennis B. Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > At 06:27 AM 4/28/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >Dennis,  Since I haven't seen the original price for this book
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >mentioned (unless I missed it), you may not be aware of what this
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >book sold for when first published.  This book's list price was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >$45.95 as shown accompanied with its Library of Congress number (in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >the preface), and of course that was in 1991.  A bit steep back
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >then, but then, Dave sent me a complimentary issue for my
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >contributions towards it so I didn't need to make the expenditure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >There was a lot that went into this book, not only in the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >contributions we submitted, but much went on behind the scenes which
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >the readers cannot even begin to know.  Many of us, most who knew
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >each other anyway from meeting at all the various train shows of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >circuit (and through Dave's H0SC&H SIG), spent months going over the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >manuscripts -- sending corrections, suggestions and modifications
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >(where needed) back and forth to each other and to Dave Spanagel
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >until we all came to an agreement as to what the final versions
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >would look like.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >One of the most difficult parts, and one that took much time, was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >coming to agreements on the values (Original, Good & Excellent) of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >each and every piece included in this guide -- which was a MAJOR
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >BEAR in coming to a mutual consensus -- many items still not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >completely agreed upon in completion, but not for lack of trying.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >I know that the average collector is not interested in what went in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >to making this book, but I just thought I'd take this opportunity to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >tell you of the extreme care and time we all devoted to detail in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >the contents of this book.  There are some mistakes as can be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >expected, one of the most glaring ones being the caption on Page 26
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >of the 0 scale 4-6-0 being called an H0 scale 4-8-4, but that was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >due to the printer using the wrong photo.  Some of the engine values
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >were somewhat high, I thought at that time, for 1991, but it has to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >be realized that some of our estimates were subjective even though
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >we did the best we could.  Today, these values look cheap.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >Anyhow, regardless of my enjoyment in being involved with this book,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >I highly recommend it to any serious Varney collector as it contains
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >almost everything you might want to know about this manufacturer and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >his products; it was a combined effort of at least 50 of us
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >dedicated collectors and manufacturers, including James Trout
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >(Gordon Varney's graphic artist), Whit Towers (former Editor, NMRA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >Bulletin), Lewis English (of Bowser Mfg) and Howell Day (of Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >Ball), to just name a few.  As like any manufacturer's line of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >products, additions (such as previously unpublished car numbers,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >etc.) are often to be found after the fact, but that's to be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >expected when trying to meet a deadline.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >The $85 figure you found one at may not be too far off what one may
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >need to pay for the book, but I still see some used editions today
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >at the scale train swap & sell meets at much lower prices.  I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >advise you to attend as many of these meets as you can, which will
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >also expose you to many other vintage items at usually reasonable
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >prices.  Lots of luck in your search,  Best,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Hi Everyone:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Thank you for the comments about the Greenberg Varney book.  After
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > reading your remarks last night I went looking for a copy but cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > find any except one for $85.  A bit steep for my retirement
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > budget.  I do not need a mint copy, so will keep looking.  After the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > commentaries, I really want the book now.  (drat)  I'd pay $50, but
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > need to hold to that range for now.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.6/2084 - Release Date: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >04/28/09 06:15:00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10202
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Blue Line Passenger cars [5 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    From my notes I will give you the car
types, top then bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Baggage – Dinner
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Baggage Mail – Dome Strata
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Combine – Day/night coach
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Diner – Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Dome Strata – 18 Roomette
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    From the second set of photos
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Day/night – Obs
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    18 Roomette
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    These are of the second type of
construction that Blue Line did.  The first type had a wood floor and the
sides and top were one wrapper.  Again with the wood ends.  Their
full width foam diaphragms still are spongy today.  Unlike the Rail Chief ones
that are now dust.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 8:23
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Cc: lennard@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Blue Line
Passenger cars [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included
below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



   
Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                           Since I have free time
right now I took pictures of  5 of the Blue Line full size passenger cars.
I will send the other 4 types in about an hour. I have not dug out the books to
identify what each car is. I know that all 9 are different. Perhaps someone
with knowledge of the real thing can ID what each car was called by the window
pattern and save me some time. My tired old legs won't let me keep going up and
down to the basement.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                           These cars are all
metal and factory painted / lithographed / baked enamel. Not sure what to they
are called. They came in a number of road names. This is the only complete 9
car set I have although I also have an 8 car Pennsy set and others in kit
form. In some of the cars you can see window material that is pre
printed with curtains/drapes, whatever. Each kit, depending on the type of
car had the window material with it. It slide into"grooves in the sides of
the cars.The cars assembled pretty easy except for the Observation. The roof,
sides and floors had "grooves" that joined the parts together when
you slide one piece into the other. I hope I'm explaining that so it could be
understood. Depending on the type of car you got plastic roof details to add.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                           Blue Line had their own
trucks, already assembled and packed two in a box. I'm trying to remember if
they came in the kit but can't be sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                            I feel these Blue
Line cars are pretty good looking and show off nice. The one part I didn't like
was that they gave you a piece of balsa that you had to shape and fit into the
ends of the cars.  It was extremely hard to make them fit decent (In my
opinion) because of the slide together construction I mentioned earlier. For
one of the few times in my vintage collection I took the liberty of buying
metal ends and installing them on this set to make them look better. I will
show you a picture with the last 4 cars of this. However I left the balsa piece
with the unbuilt kits
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                            It's late and I'm
trying to remember to much just "off the top of my head" If need be I
will send close-ups of the trucks and the slide together construction after I
show the last 4 cars. Tomorrow I will show you a mint boxed set of
Blue Line shorty cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10203
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: The American Beauty Lines  Listing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck, and others,  before I go into the 65' Shorty American Beauty cars, I need to back up here a second.  There was a whole separate production of 85' factory painted and lettered cars produced near the end, some which received embossed aluminum overlays in various configurations.  The Chesapeake and Ohio Series I mentioned was one of them.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Along with them, there were several Series of smooth-side cars that were in addition to the first lot of Series.  These were not the DO-IT-YOURSELF kits I have at the very end, but did use these same types of overlays where they wwere applicable.  All of these series consist of eight different kits -- Baggage, Mail-Baggage, Combination, Day Coach, Day-Nite Coach, Diner, Pullman and Observation.  For starters, which I'll call "Late Production," to which we'll include the C & O Series here, are:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Pennsylvania Broadway Limited -- Cataloged as "PB" Series (PB-1, etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Pennsylvania -- Florida Cars -- Cataloged as "PF" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Pennsylvania -- Congressional -- Cataloged as "PC" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Baltimore and Ohio -- Cataloged as "BO" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Texas and Pacific -- Cataloged as "TP" Series  -- Embossed aluminum band overlays below windows
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chesapeake and Ohio -- Cataloged as "CO" Series -- Embossed aluminum corregated overlays below window and car skirt
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Kits contain decal set for lettering named cars.  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Chuck H. et al,  Chuck, hope you ready to make a spread sheet of this for the files.  These metal passenger cars were manufactured by American Railroad Models, Inc.  They changed addresses at least once that I know of, starting at 16553 Fielding Avenue, Detroit 19 MIchigan and ending at P.O. Box 1143, Allen Park, Michigan.  All came with their high quality 4-wheel sprung passenger car truck kits.  Most all were factory painted and lettered, except for the later production "Do-It-Yourself" kits. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * AMERICAN BEAUTY H0 LINES * * * * * * * * 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> * * * * * 85' Streamlined Passenger Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Pennsylvania Railroad Series --
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> PE-1  Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> PE-2  Mail Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> PE-3  Combination Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> PE-4  Day Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> PE-5  Day Nite Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> PE-6  Dining Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> PE-7  Roomette
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> PE-8  Observation Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> New York Central Series -- Twentieth Century Limited
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> NC-1  Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> NC-2  Mail Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> NC-3  Combination Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> NC-4  Day Coach 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> NC-5  Day Nite Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> NC-6  Roomette "Park Terrace"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> NC-6A Pullman -- Roomette
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> NC-6B Pullman -- Bedroom Compartment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> NC-7  Dining Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> NC-8  Observation Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Illinois Central Railroad Series --
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> IC-1  Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> IC-2  Mail Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> IC-3  Combinataion Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> IC-4  Day Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> IC-5  Day Nite Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> IC-6  Dining Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> IC-7  Roomette
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> IC-8  Observation Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chicago and Northwestern Series --
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> CN-1  Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> CN-2  Mail Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> CN-3  Combination Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> CN-4  Day Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> CN-5  Day Nite Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> CN-6  Dining Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> CN-7  Roomette
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> CN-8  Observation Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Union Pacific Railroad Series --
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> UP-1  Baggage #5601
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> UP-2  Mail Storage #5700
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> UP-3  Mail Baggage #5801
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> UP-4 Baggage Dormitory #6000
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> UP-5  Day Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> UP-6  Day Nite Coach 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> UP-7  Dining Car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> UP-8  Pullman "Western Sea"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> UP-8A Pullman (unnamed)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> UP-8B Compartment Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> UP-9  Observation Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Great Northern -- Empire Builder
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN-1  Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN-2  Mail Baggage Car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN-3  Baggage Dormitory
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN-4  Day Coach #1210
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN-4A Day Coach (not numbered)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN-5  Day Nite Coach #1215
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN-5A Day Nite Coach (not numbered)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN-6  Roomette #1260 "Gunsight Pass"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN-6A Bedroom - Roomette
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN-6B Bedroom Compartment
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN-7  Dining Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN-8  Pendulum Chair Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN-9  Observation Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Southern Pacific Daylight Series --
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SP-1  Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SP-2  Mail Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SP-3  Baggage Coach/Combine
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SP-4  Day Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SP-5  Day Night Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SP-6  Dining Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SP-7  Lounge Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SP-8  Pullman
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SP-9  Observation Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chesapeake and Ohio Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> CO-1  Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> CO-2  Mail Baggage Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> CO-3  Combination Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> CO-4  Day Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> CO-5  Day Nite Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> CO-6  Dining Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> CO-7  Roomette 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> CO-8  Observatiobn Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> DO-IT-YOURSELF Streamliner Series --
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Came as five different series, each with their own distinctive configurations of smooth and embossed sheets of corregations on thin aluminum foil overlay strips (having pressure sensitive adhesive, and mounted on paper backing) to be applied to the ready-buffed sides ready for painting.  Available as Baggage, Mail Baggage, Combination, Day Coach,  Day/Nite Coach, Dining Car, Pullman, Lounge Car and Observation. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Next post -- 65' Shorties listing.  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10204
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: O.T., was, Greenberg's Guide  Varney question,  Ray, et.al.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Isn't there a Climax in NC or SC?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Running?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Or was running fairly recently?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
WV:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.msrlha.org/
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
One at Strasburg, one at Pisgah Forest in North Carolina.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.historichendersonville.org/pisgah_forest.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Dennis,  Nothing like taking on an ambitious job, eh?  Sounds like some real good reading, those Climax engines are fascinating.  I can appreciate the time and work that must have gone into them.  The closest thing we have to that here in the East are the Shays on the Cass Scenic Railroad in West Virginia.  I DO enjoy the narrow gauge steam on the East Broad Top, though.  They really pique my interest.  Best,  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Ray:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Logging Railroads in Skagit County, NWSL, 1989.  1,000+ miles of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > logging railroad in one county mapped; plus fold-out map; tip-out 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > photos. 294 pages.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The Climax Locomotive, Oso Publishing Company, 2001, 497 pages;  Big 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > headache.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Am interested in doing something on the rail equipment built by 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Skagit Steel & Iron Works, but don't know where that's going yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > May do something more on Bear Harbor Lumber Company, northern 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Mendocino County, California, but the 45 page article I did for Tall 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Timber Short Lines covered a lot of it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Not sure I'm young enough to want to take on another big book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Yes, I'm looking forward to getting the Varney book.  I'm more than, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > "some kind of a Varney fan," because the Casey Jones was my first 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > model locomotive.  Interest was dormant until awakened by this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > List.  Which could be good.....or, "bad."  (grin)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Odessa/Ritzville, E WA state
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > At 03:54 PM 4/28/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Dennis,  Congrats on acquiring this helpful book.  If you're any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >kind of Varney fan, I KNOW you're going to find it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >interesting.  While you may have found one cheaper, there's no 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >telling when.  At least you have it now and can enjoy it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Yes, a lot of work goes into such books, but as they say, it's a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >labor of love.  Looking at it another way, if you just consider each 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >of the approximately 50 contributors as having only 10 years 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >experience in collecting and familiarizing themselves with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >manufacturers and their products, its like have a very minimum of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >500 years of combine information going into it.  I don't believe 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >there was all that much which was missed.  Am interested to hear 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >which railroad books you wrote, could you supply some titles or 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >subjects?  Working on any others lately?  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Ray and All:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Thank you for your comments.  Good background information that I did
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > not know about how this book was assembled by many
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > contributors.  With all that in mind, I just found one on line for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > $75 and bought it.  I'll figure out the money later, (grin).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > I do appreciate what goes into research, writing and producing a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > railroad book.  The first one I had published took me, (largely
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > alone), 15 years, part time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Dennis B. Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > At 06:27 AM 4/28/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >Dennis,  Since I haven't seen the original price for this book
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >mentioned (unless I missed it), you may not be aware of what this
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >book sold for when first published.  This book's list price was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >$45.95 as shown accompanied with its Library of Congress number (in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >the preface), and of course that was in 1991.  A bit steep back
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >then, but then, Dave sent me a complimentary issue for my
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >contributions towards it so I didn't need to make the expenditure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >There was a lot that went into this book, not only in the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >contributions we submitted, but much went on behind the scenes which
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >the readers cannot even begin to know.  Many of us, most who knew
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >each other anyway from meeting at all the various train shows of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >circuit (and through Dave's H0SC&H SIG), spent months going over the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >manuscripts -- sending corrections, suggestions and modifications
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >(where needed) back and forth to each other and to Dave Spanagel
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >until we all came to an agreement as to what the final versions
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >would look like.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >One of the most difficult parts, and one that took much time, was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >coming to agreements on the values (Original, Good & Excellent) of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >each and every piece included in this guide -- which was a MAJOR
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >BEAR in coming to a mutual consensus -- many items still not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >completely agreed upon in completion, but not for lack of trying.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >I know that the average collector is not interested in what went in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >to making this book, but I just thought I'd take this opportunity to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >tell you of the extreme care and time we all devoted to detail in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >the contents of this book.  There are some mistakes as can be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >expected, one of the most glaring ones being the caption on Page 26
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >of the 0 scale 4-6-0 being called an H0 scale 4-8-4, but that was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >due to the printer using the wrong photo.  Some of the engine values
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >were somewhat high, I thought at that time, for 1991, but it has to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >be realized that some of our estimates were subjective even though
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >we did the best we could.  Today, these values look cheap.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >Anyhow, regardless of my enjoyment in being involved with this book,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >I highly recommend it to any serious Varney collector as it contains
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >almost everything you might want to know about this manufacturer and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >his products; it was a combined effort of at least 50 of us
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >dedicated collectors and manufacturers, including James Trout
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >(Gordon Varney's graphic artist), Whit Towers (former Editor, NMRA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >Bulletin), Lewis English (of Bowser Mfg) and Howell Day (of Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >Ball), to just name a few.  As like any manufacturer's line of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >products, additions (such as previously unpublished car numbers,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >etc.) are often to be found after the fact, but that's to be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >expected when trying to meet a deadline.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >The $85 figure you found one at may not be too far off what one may
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >need to pay for the book, but I still see some used editions today
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >at the scale train swap & sell meets at much lower prices.  I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >advise you to attend as many of these meets as you can, which will
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >also expose you to many other vintage items at usually reasonable
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >prices.  Lots of luck in your search,  Best,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > Hi Everyone:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > Thank you for the comments about the Greenberg Varney book.  After
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > reading your remarks last night I went looking for a copy but cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > find any except one for $85.  A bit steep for my retirement
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > budget.  I do not need a mint copy, so will keep looking.  After the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > commentaries, I really want the book now.  (drat)  I'd pay $50, but
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > need to hold to that range for now.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.6/2084 - Release Date: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >04/28/09 06:15:00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10205
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: The American Beauty Lines Listing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck and All,  Listed here are the American Beauty Lines 65' Shorty Passenger Cars.  All of these Series came in eight different car styles only, all the same cars in each Series except for SP which had a Lounge rather than a Pullman.  These series consisted of Baggage, Mail-Baggage, Combination, Day Coach, Day-Nite Coach, Diner, Pullman (or Lounge, SP) and Observation.  Starting with the earliest production, they are:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Pennsylvania R.R. Series -- Cataloged as "PE-#S" Series (PE-1S, etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
New York Central Series -- Cataloged as "NC-#S" Series (NC-1S, etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Later (Last) Production -- Note NONE of these late production cars included trucks, including the previous 85' late production kits;
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Pennsylvania Broadway Limited - Cataloged as "PBS" Series (PBS-1, etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Pennsylvania Florida Cars - Cataloged as "PFS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Pennsylvania Congressional - Cataloged as "PCS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Baltimore and Ohio - Cataloged as "BOS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chesapeake and Ohio - Cataloged as "COS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Southern Pacific Daylight - Cataloged as "SPS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Great Northern - Cataloged as "GNS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Texas and Pacific - Cataloged as "TPS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Notes: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The later production shorty kits could be had packaged as an eight car set, individully boxed, in a corregated carton.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The 85' DO-IT-YOURSELF Series was cataloged as "X-1," "X-2" etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The 65' DO-IT-YOURSELF Series was cataloged as "XS-1," "XS-2" etc. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Upon request, decals were supplied in a choice of 24 different road names for the Do-IT-YOURSELF kits (@ 25 cents per set, extra).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
That about wraps it up.  Best,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10206
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: O.T., was, Greenberg's Guide  Varney question,  Ray, et.al.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Quite possibly!  I believe you may be right, as it sounds familiar.  Perhaps I should have said, the closest thing we have to the Climax near the NORTH East are the WV Shays (I'm in the Northeast and don't get down to SC much.  Wasn't aware of one at Strasburg; interesting to know.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Isn't there a Climax in NC or SC?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Running?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Or was running fairly recently?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> WV:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.msrlha.org/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> One at Strasburg, one at Pisgah Forest in North Carolina.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.historichendersonville.org/pisgah_forest.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dennis,  Nothing like taking on an ambitious job, eh?  Sounds like some real good reading, those Climax engines are fascinating.  I can appreciate the time and work that must have gone into them.  The closest thing we have to that here in the East are the Shays on the Cass Scenic Railroad in West Virginia.  I DO enjoy the narrow gauge steam on the East Broad Top, though.  They really pique my interest.  Best,  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Ray:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Logging Railroads in Skagit County, NWSL, 1989.  1,000+ miles of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > logging railroad in one county mapped; plus fold-out map; tip-out 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > photos. 294 pages.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > The Climax Locomotive, Oso Publishing Company, 2001, 497 pages;  Big 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > headache.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Am interested in doing something on the rail equipment built by 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Skagit Steel & Iron Works, but don't know where that's going yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > May do something more on Bear Harbor Lumber Company, northern 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Mendocino County, California, but the 45 page article I did for Tall 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Timber Short Lines covered a lot of it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Not sure I'm young enough to want to take on another big book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Yes, I'm looking forward to getting the Varney book.  I'm more than, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > "some kind of a Varney fan," because the Casey Jones was my first 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > model locomotive.  Interest was dormant until awakened by this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > List.  Which could be good.....or, "bad."  (grin)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Odessa/Ritzville, E WA state
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > At 03:54 PM 4/28/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >Dennis,  Congrats on acquiring this helpful book.  If you're any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >kind of Varney fan, I KNOW you're going to find it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >interesting.  While you may have found one cheaper, there's no 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >telling when.  At least you have it now and can enjoy it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >Yes, a lot of work goes into such books, but as they say, it's a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >labor of love.  Looking at it another way, if you just consider each 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >of the approximately 50 contributors as having only 10 years 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >experience in collecting and familiarizing themselves with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >manufacturers and their products, its like have a very minimum of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >500 years of combine information going into it.  I don't believe 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >there was all that much which was missed.  Am interested to hear 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >which railroad books you wrote, could you supply some titles or 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >subjects?  Working on any others lately?  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Ray and All:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Thank you for your comments.  Good background information that I did
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > not know about how this book was assembled by many
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > contributors.  With all that in mind, I just found one on line for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > $75 and bought it.  I'll figure out the money later, (grin).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > I do appreciate what goes into research, writing and producing a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > railroad book.  The first one I had published took me, (largely
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > alone), 15 years, part time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Dennis B. Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > At 06:27 AM 4/28/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >Dennis,  Since I haven't seen the original price for this book
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >mentioned (unless I missed it), you may not be aware of what this
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >book sold for when first published.  This book's list price was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >$45.95 as shown accompanied with its Library of Congress number (in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >the preface), and of course that was in 1991.  A bit steep back
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >then, but then, Dave sent me a complimentary issue for my
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >contributions towards it so I didn't need to make the expenditure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >There was a lot that went into this book, not only in the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >contributions we submitted, but much went on behind the scenes which
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >the readers cannot even begin to know.  Many of us, most who knew
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >each other anyway from meeting at all the various train shows of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >circuit (and through Dave's H0SC&H SIG), spent months going over the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >manuscripts -- sending corrections, suggestions and modifications
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >(where needed) back and forth to each other and to Dave Spanagel
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >until we all came to an agreement as to what the final versions
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >would look like.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >One of the most difficult parts, and one that took much time, was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >coming to agreements on the values (Original, Good & Excellent) of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >each and every piece included in this guide -- which was a MAJOR
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >BEAR in coming to a mutual consensus -- many items still not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >completely agreed upon in completion, but not for lack of trying.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >I know that the average collector is not interested in what went in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >to making this book, but I just thought I'd take this opportunity to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >tell you of the extreme care and time we all devoted to detail in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >the contents of this book.  There are some mistakes as can be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >expected, one of the most glaring ones being the caption on Page 26
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >of the 0 scale 4-6-0 being called an H0 scale 4-8-4, but that was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >due to the printer using the wrong photo.  Some of the engine values
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >were somewhat high, I thought at that time, for 1991, but it has to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >be realized that some of our estimates were subjective even though
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >we did the best we could.  Today, these values look cheap.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >Anyhow, regardless of my enjoyment in being involved with this book,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >I highly recommend it to any serious Varney collector as it contains
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >almost everything you might want to know about this manufacturer and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >his products; it was a combined effort of at least 50 of us
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >dedicated collectors and manufacturers, including James Trout
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >(Gordon Varney's graphic artist), Whit Towers (former Editor, NMRA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >Bulletin), Lewis English (of Bowser Mfg) and Howell Day (of Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >Ball), to just name a few.  As like any manufacturer's line of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >products, additions (such as previously unpublished car numbers,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >etc.) are often to be found after the fact, but that's to be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >expected when trying to meet a deadline.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >The $85 figure you found one at may not be too far off what one may
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >need to pay for the book, but I still see some used editions today
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >at the scale train swap & sell meets at much lower prices.  I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >advise you to attend as many of these meets as you can, which will
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >also expose you to many other vintage items at usually reasonable
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >prices.  Lots of luck in your search,  Best,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > > Hi Everyone:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > > Thank you for the comments about the Greenberg Varney book.  After
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > > reading your remarks last night I went looking for a copy but cannot
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > > find any except one for $85.  A bit steep for my retirement
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > > budget.  I do not need a mint copy, so will keep looking.  After the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > > commentaries, I really want the book now.  (drat)  I'd pay $50, but
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > > need to hold to that range for now.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.6/2084 - Release Date: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >04/28/09 06:15:00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10207
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2 - Coupler Mount - Making it practical?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi David,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Your coupler problem with the Athearn 0-4-2 was interesting.  If you were reading the posts regarding the American Beauty passenger cars, I had briefly mentioned that the full length cars employed a special stamped steel coupler mount that allowed operation on a sharper radius than with body mounted couplers, yet avoiding some of the problems with coupler mounted trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I just realized this could be a solution for you.  The hanger is actually two steel pieces, the one mounted to the  body, and the lower one connected to the coupler and sprung with a centering spring. To avoid sag, the moving part hooks into the rigid upper part.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    If the arm is too long, it could be shortened and a new mounting hole drilled.  See the two lower drawings on this page. Any coupler pocket can be mounted on the pad.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.hoseeker.org/americanbeauty/americanbeautybaggagecarpg2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    It might be worth a shot.  Finding the parts to experiment should not be too difficult within our Vintage group!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "David Helber" <dnhelber@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The Athearn 0-4-2 "Little Monster" tank engine was my first HO locomotive, as a teenager back in 1962. I'd like to build a very compact switching/display shelf-layout with mostly vintage equipment, and use an 0-4-2 on it. But it has the reputation of being a very poor performer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Does anyone have experience with the 0-4-2T? What are the main problem-areas and the best ways to correct them? I don't mind spending a little extra time, effort and cash on this engine, for sentimental reasons. I don't mind modifying the engine. I have enough "old-time" model-train skills to add sliding pickup shoes, extra weight, reversing headlights and that sort of thing. I know nothing about DCC though, so assume conventional control.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I recall that the coupler lies so far to the rear of the fixed axle that the sideswing was fairly enormous. Since I want to use it on 15" curves and sharp Peco turnouts or Snap-switches, I'd be interested in hearing any suggestions for minimizing the problems caused by the swing (short of converting to Mantua loop couplers). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I probably should just forget about it and go with a Mantua Little Six, but I'd really like to use the Athearn engine, if possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > David
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10208
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: O.T., was, Greenberg's Guide  Varney question,  Ray, et.al.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    There is a climax at Cass.  I saw it a few years ago, but it was all taken 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
apart in pieces inside a building.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
This talks about it some...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.cassrailroad.com/cli9.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I also have that Climax book.  Darn nice book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 6:28 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: O.T., was, Greenberg's Guide Varney question, Ray, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
et.al.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis, Nothing like taking on an ambitious job, eh? Sounds like some real 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
good reading, those Climax engines are fascinating. I can appreciate the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
time and work that must have gone into them. The closest thing we have to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
that here in the East are the Shays on the Cass Scenic Railroad in West 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Virginia. I DO enjoy the narrow gauge steam on the East Broad Top, though. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
They really pique my interest. Best, Ray F W 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10209
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    It is metal, no trucks or couplers. When I first 
saw it, I though it was an Athearn by the type and shape of the weights. it has 
Frisco, SL-SF #90760. The frame is metal, but the trucks mount into plastic 
inserts, much like some of the old Roundhouse cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 6:39 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 
  HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve,  If there's ever something you need identified, 
  just feel free to ask here.  Sometimes it's already in the files, but 
  unless you suspect who may have made it, you wouldn't know where to go when 
  you get there to find it.  Quite often, the car side number is the 
  give-away as seldom did one manufacturer copy another's car number reporting 
  mark sequence.  If asking here, it always helps to tell us the material 
  the car is made of. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Without seeing it, the first thing that comes to 
  my mind is Ulrich's cast zamac OH-5 32' Frisco #90883 Twin Offset-Side Hopper, 
  but then that's just a guess.  As for searching, I guess you could start 
  by entering any of the manufacturers that you either know or suspect made the 
  car and go from there.  There weren't that many that made cast hopper 
  cars.  Railmaster made an SL-SF Twin Panel Hopper, but MDC made only 
  Triple Hoppers.  Other manufacturers used different materials.  Ray 
  F W



                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, 
  "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I like this group, I value the info I pick up from here. Sometimes I 
  just like to go looking and searching for myself.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > You mention HOseeker 
  ... I've been on the web site a number of times ... even supplied instruction 
  sheets for some Varney Ore Cars .... Maybe I'm missing something. How do I do 
  a search? I've got a car that I have no idea who makes it. I wanted to search 
  for a 2 bay Frisco hopper but I don't see any way of doing that. Is there a 
  quick way of searching without hit and miss?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    >   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >   
  From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >   Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    >   
  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >   Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >             
  For it's time it was a very good group. I don' think bringing it back would 
  matter. Groups like the vintageHO Yahoo group and HOseeker are filling in the 
  voids nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >            The 
  only downside I see from not resurrecting it is the possibility that some of 
  the information will be lost. The thing that really bothers me the most is the 
  number of really knowledgeable members who have passed on or do not 
  participate in any group. Many of these were my "inner circle". You name a 
  company and I could put you in touch with a person or persons who could answer 
  a lot of questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >             
  That doesn't mean this group lacks anything. It's that sometimes different 
  information came from different people.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >                                                                              
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >     ----- Original Message ----- 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >     From: My-Yahoo-Groups 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >     Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:53 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    >     Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >     Any 
  way of resurrecting the group? It sounds like it could still be of 
  value.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >     
  Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    >       ----- Original Message ----- 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >       From: jim heckard 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >       To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >       Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 
  7:59 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    >       Subject: [vintageHO] 
  HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >       
  Hi Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >                     
  Let me try to explain what the HOSC&H-SIG was. First SIG stands for 
  Special Interest Group and were affiliated with the NMRA ( National Model 
  Railroad Association). I assume there were more then this group. Also this was 
  started at a time before the electronic age of Yahoo groups and 
  computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >                
  HOSC&H ( H O Scale Collectors & History ) was a group founded back in 
  the early 80's by John David Spanagel (The author of Greenberg's Guide to 
  Varney Trains ). I was not an original member but became a member not long 
  after that. Membership was open, for a nominal fee of $10 at the start ( for 
  postage and shipping of the newsletter ), to anyone having interest in vintage 
  HO scale. There were 4 newsletters  ( The Reporting Mark ) sent a year 
  with information and pictures that members sent in. It covered a variety of HO 
  companies, their products and history.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >               
  As new facts or vintage items were found they were shared with all group 
  members in the newsletter. That is how new updates for the Greenberg Varney 
  book were shared with members. These 20 years of newsletters were a valuable 
  tool in HO history. A lot of this information came about from almost 300 
  members. (I know a few are in this Yahoo vintage HO group.)  A lot of, up 
  till then, unknown information became available and was shared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >               
  Sorry to say that this group passed out of existence a few years ago. Dave 
  Spanagel wanted to retire from his job and retire from being the "Moderator" 
  of this group to fully enjoy his "golden years".
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >              
  Hope that explains HOSC&H-SIG a little.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >                                                                                                        
  Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >




                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10210
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 4/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: OT:  Camera, was Blue Line Passenger cars [5 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I just figured out what is needed in your railroad 
room.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    While it is now "offline indefinitely", the Adler 
Planetarium had a "Sky Eye" camera on the roof that, from your home 
computer, you could aim and zoom at the city, people, whatever.  I don't 
know how it handled multiple people competing for it, but when I used it, it 
seemed like I had total control.  There are other such "interactive 
cameras" here and there.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    You could point it in any direction and pan if you 
wished.  The zoom range was astounding and you could zoom in on some 
unsuspecting person in walking nearby and fill the frame with their 
head.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    We need one of those hanging from the middle of 
your ceiling.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm only kidding, of course.  I 
think.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 5:22 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Blue Line Passenger 
  cars [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Since I have 
  free time right now I took pictures of  5 of the Blue Line full size 
  passenger cars. I will send the other 4 types in about an hour. I have not dug 
  out the books to identify what each car is. I know that all 9 are different. 
  Perhaps someone with knowledge of the real thing can ID what each car was 
  called by the window pattern and save me some time. My tired old legs won't 
  let me keep going up and down to the basement.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           These cars 
  are all metal and factory painted / lithographed / baked enamel. Not sure what 
  to they are called. They came in a number of road names. This is the only 
  complete 9 car set I have although I also have an 8 car Pennsy set 
  and others in kit form. In some of the cars you can see window material 
  that is pre printed with curtains/drapes, whatever. Each kit, depending 
  on the type of car had the window material with it. It slide into"grooves in 
  the sides of the cars.The cars assembled pretty easy except for the 
  Observation. The roof, sides and floors had "grooves" that joined the parts 
  together when you slide one piece into the other. I hope I'm explaining that 
  so it could be understood. Depending on the type of car you got plastic roof 
  details to add.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Blue Line 
  had their own trucks, already assembled and packed two in a box. I'm trying to 
  remember if they came in the kit but can't be sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            I feel 
  these Blue Line cars are pretty good looking and show off nice. The one part I 
  didn't like was that they gave you a piece of balsa that you had to shape and 
  fit into the ends of the cars.  It was extremely hard to make them fit 
  decent (In my opinion) because of the slide together construction I mentioned 
  earlier. For one of the few times in my vintage collection I took the 
  liberty of buying metal ends and installing them on this set to make them look 
  better. I will show you a picture with the last 4 cars of this. However I left 
  the balsa piece with the unbuilt kits
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            It's 
  late and I'm trying to remember to much just "off the top of my head" If need 
  be I will send close-ups of the trucks and the slide together construction 
  after I show the last 4 cars. Tomorrow I will show you a mint boxed 
  set of Blue Line shorty cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10211
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Blue Line Passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim,  Nice pics of some nice cars!  Always a joy to see well-done built-ups of these kits.  See what I mean about being a toss-up between these and American Beauty?  They're both great model lines to have.  We're probably very fortunate that these manufacturers produced these factory painted and lettered cars for us to enjoy -- got a bunch myself, some complete sets.  Can't beat them, but then you can't beat A.B.'s either <grin>.  I don't think any other manufacturer besides Walthers, with a limited line of their metal-sides cars, offered factory finished (painted) kits -- and their's were heavyweights.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Richard Wright's MHP (Model Hobby Products) cars were real nice, but they needed to be painted -- and even though they were more specific to the car designs, he only covered a few Western Roads.  Great for modeling the SP though; he did a number of different articulated cars, which W Jay W. mentioned, including articulated chair cars, articulated dining cars and articulated dining-lounge cars, some which were three-section articulateds.  I have a few of them, but never tried building them.  They look like too much work (LOL).  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        Since I have free time right now I took pictures of  5 of the Blue Line full size passenger cars. I will send the other 4 types in about an hour. I have not dug out the books to identify what each car is. I know that all 9 are different. Perhaps someone with knowledge of the real thing can ID what each car was called by the window pattern and save me some time. My tired old legs won't let me keep going up and down to the basement.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        These cars are all metal and factory painted / lithographed / baked enamel. Not sure what to they are called. They came in a number of road names. This is the only complete 9 car set I have although I also have an 8 car Pennsy set and others in kit form. In some of the cars you can see window material that is pre printed with curtains/drapes, whatever. Each kit, depending on the type of car had the window material with it. It slide into"grooves in the sides of the cars.The cars assembled pretty easy except for the Observation. The roof, sides and floors had "grooves" that joined the parts together when you slide one piece into the other. I hope I'm explaining that so it could be understood. Depending on the type of car you got plastic roof details to add.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        Blue Line had their own trucks, already assembled and packed two in a box. I'm trying to remember if they came in the kit but can't be sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         I feel these Blue Line cars are pretty good looking and show off nice. The one part I didn't like was that they gave you a piece of balsa that you had to shape and fit into the ends of the cars.  It was extremely hard to make them fit decent (In my opinion) because of the slide together construction I mentioned earlier. For one of the few times in my vintage collection I took the liberty of buying metal ends and installing them on this set to make them look better. I will show you a picture with the last 4 cars of this. However I left the balsa piece with the unbuilt kits
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         It's late and I'm trying to remember to much just "off the top of my head" If need be I will send close-ups of the trucks and the slide together construction after I show the last 4 cars. Tomorrow I will show you a mint boxed set of Blue Line shorty cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10212
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jay,  It occurred to me that we may have crossed paths at some time.  I also used to visit Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, both in the old store and then in the newly (then) remodelled store.  Do you remember Rich's Hobbytown in Parsippany -- right off Rt. 46?  He later opened another store in Oakland (NJ, for those wondering if I meant CA).  Back then, there were a lot of hobby shops around.  Now you have to travel some to get to one.  I guess you now go to Ray Threllfall's Model Railway Post Office Supply in Greenwood Lake?  I believe I saw where he was thinking of retiring, great guy.  Best,  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John H., Yes, three grins from me, and probably a fourth as those black grease pencil discount price markings look just like the ones made by "Joe" at Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, NJ in the 1960's, the go-to spot for model railroading supplies in suburban Northern NJ back then! It was not too difficult to convince my dad to take a 14 mile drive over there a couple of times a month, even if it was only for a headlight casting and decal!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Here are two photos of the Aerotrain boxes just for grins
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10213
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve, In theory, it wouldn't be a bad idea at all, even if we could get around Dave Spanagel having copyrighted it.  But in practice, unfortunately I see major problems in the concept of this, if you mean to have such a group on line -- although I hope I'm wrong.  Those days, there were no internet groups, so anyone who had any interest in the group and in collecting got involved by sending in some information about items in their collection as they KNEW the other members would be just as interested -- and I'm not meaning that most of us here wouldn't be interested.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
But those days, MANY more people got involved, some with writing complete articles on a manufacturer, and some just sending in a line or two of interest, sometimes only of one item.  These couple of lines may have been of some obscure manufacturer (like Sterling, for instance, which W Jay W. bought up), or maybe just a "new" car side number for Globe or Athearn metal which was previously unknown to most of us.  With this participation and interest, all these different tid-bits that were published quarterly gave us all some idea of direction in which most of the membership was only too eager to see more of -- so those who were more active knew what to send in next to keep the interests up for the rest of us, as it was an ongoing thing; the added information served to feed still more information on what was of interest to most of the members.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Here, I have no idea of what the membership is interested in, and only take clues by what happens to be brought up (sometimes only mentioned as a passing name in a discussion).  Hoping that there's more interest in a topic, since it had been mentioned, I venture to post more on it -- but I still don't know what the interests of most of the other members are, on here.  We seem to have only a comparatively core few of contributers on here (not a criticism), which I fail to understand when I'm sure most of our 431 members must have at least something they've collected -- or I don't think they'd be here (maybe I'm wrong on that?).  Without participation, such as we had in the HOSC&H SIG, knowledge isn't being shared nor is the interest in these items.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
There are innumerable topics I could bring up, just from what I have in my collection, but I have no way of knowing if it would be of interest to anyone else here, as there's no general feel for what topics motivate anyone else.  Fortunately, Jim H. has been taking the initiative to post what he hopes would be of interest to many, but it seems to be only of interest to a few, from lack of feedback I see.  I can understand, that not every member had Dallas Modelcraft or Garco in their collections, but I know I'd be interested in whatever any other member may have.  To start up another version of the HOSC&H with a limited amount of participation would probably see it fail, IMHO.  Best,  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Any way of resurrecting the group? It sounds like it could still be of value.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:59 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Hi Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                 Let me try to explain what the HOSC&H-SIG was. First SIG stands for Special Interest Group and were affiliated with the NMRA ( National Model Railroad Association). I assume there were more then this group. Also this was started at a time before the electronic age of Yahoo groups and computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            HOSC&H ( H O Scale Collectors & History ) was a group founded back in the early 80's by John David Spanagel (The author of Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains ). I was not an original member but became a member not long after that. Membership was open, for a nominal fee of $10 at the start ( for postage and shipping of the newsletter ), to anyone having interest in vintage HO scale. There were 4 newsletters  ( The Reporting Mark ) sent a year with information and pictures that members sent in. It covered a variety of HO companies, their products and history.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           As new facts or vintage items were found they were shared with all group members in the newsletter. That is how new updates for the Greenberg Varney book were shared with members. These 20 years of newsletters were a valuable tool in HO history. A lot of this information came about from almost 300 members. (I know a few are in this Yahoo vintage HO group.)  A lot of, up till then, unknown information became available and was shared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           Sorry to say that this group passed out of existence a few years ago. Dave Spanagel wanted to retire from his job and retire from being the "Moderator" of this group to fully enjoy his "golden years".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          Hope that explains HOSC&H-SIG a little.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10214
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve, Just to help narrow this down, Athearn never made any metal hoppers.  Your description could fit a few, but Ulrich used plastic bushings to be inserted into the frame to install the truck-mounting screws into.  A description of the end-side joint would be helpful, as to whether these areas are beveled or meet flat-on with a notch to lock them in place.  Sounds like an Ulrich, although they generally used only one car number with any one road name, although they did use two different numbers on a few of their cars (your #90760 could still be an Ulrich, but not as commonly seen); but a pic would help as well if you could send one.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It is metal, no trucks or couplers. When I first saw it, I though it was an Athearn by the type and shape of the weights. it has Frisco, SL-SF #90760. The frame is metal, but the trucks mount into plastic inserts, much like some of the old Roundhouse cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 6:39 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Steve,  If there's ever something you need identified, just feel free to ask here.  Sometimes it's already in the files, but unless you suspect who may have made it, you wouldn't know where to go when you get there to find it.  Quite often, the car side number is the give-away as seldom did one manufacturer copy another's car number reporting mark sequence.  If asking here, it always helps to tell us the material the car is made of. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Without seeing it, the first thing that comes to my mind is Ulrich's cast zamac OH-5 32' Frisco #90883 Twin Offset-Side Hopper, but then that's just a guess.  As for searching, I guess you could start by entering any of the manufacturers that you either know or suspect made the car and go from there.  There weren't that many that made cast hopper cars.  Railmaster made an SL-SF Twin Panel Hopper, but MDC made only Triple Hoppers.  Other manufacturers used different materials.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I like this group, I value the info I pick up from here. Sometimes I just like to go looking and searching for myself.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > You mention HOseeker ... I've been on the web site a number of times ... even supplied instruction sheets for some Varney Ore Cars .... Maybe I'm missing something. How do I do a search? I've got a car that I have no idea who makes it. I wanted to search for a 2 bay Frisco hopper but I don't see any way of doing that. Is there a quick way of searching without hit and miss?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >   From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >   Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >   Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >             For it's time it was a very good group. I don' think bringing it back would matter. Groups like the vintageHO Yahoo group and HOseeker are filling in the voids nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >            The only downside I see from not resurrecting it is the possibility that some of the information will be lost. The thing that really bothers me the most is the number of really knowledgeable members who have passed on or do not participate in any group. Many of these were my "inner circle". You name a company and I could put you in touch with a person or persons who could answer a lot of questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >             That doesn't mean this group lacks anything. It's that sometimes different information came from different people.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >     From: My-Yahoo-Groups 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >     Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >     Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >     Any way of resurrecting the group? It sounds like it could still be of value.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >     Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >       From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >       To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >       Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:59 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >       Subject: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >       Hi Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >                     Let me try to explain what the HOSC&H-SIG was. First SIG stands for Special Interest Group and were affiliated with the NMRA ( National Model Railroad Association). I assume there were more then this group. Also this was started at a time before the electronic age of Yahoo groups and computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >                HOSC&H ( H O Scale Collectors & History ) was a group founded back in the early 80's by John David Spanagel (The author of Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains ). I was not an original member but became a member not long after that. Membership was open, for a nominal fee of $10 at the start ( for postage and shipping of the newsletter ), to anyone having interest in vintage HO scale. There were 4 newsletters  ( The Reporting Mark ) sent a year with information and pictures that members sent in. It covered a variety of HO companies, their products and history.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >               As new facts or vintage items were found they were shared with all group members in the newsletter. That is how new updates for the Greenberg Varney book were shared with members. These 20 years of newsletters were a valuable tool in HO history. A lot of this information came about from almost 300 members. (I know a few are in this Yahoo vintage HO group.)  A lot of, up till then, unknown information became available and was shared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >               Sorry to say that this group passed out of existence a few years ago. Dave Spanagel wanted to retire from his job and retire from being the "Moderator" of this group to fully enjoy his "golden years".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >              Hope that explains HOSC&H-SIG a little.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >                                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10215
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                    Attached is a pic of one previously on ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:37:20 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve, Just to help narrow this down, Athearn never made any metal hoppers. Your description could fit a few, but Ulrich used plastic bushings to be inserted into the frame to install the truck-mounting screws into. A description of the end-side joint would be helpful, as to whether these areas are beveled or meet flat-on with a notch to lock them in place. Sounds like an Ulrich, although they generally used only one car number with any one road name, although they did use two different numbers on a few of their cars (your #90760 could still be an Ulrich, but not as commonly seen); but a pic would help as well if you could send one. Ray F W

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > It is metal, no trucks or couplers. When I first saw it, I though it was an Athearn by
 the type and shape of the weights. it has Frisco, SL-SF #90760. The frame is metal, but the trucks mount into plastic inserts, much like some of the old Roundhouse cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 6:39 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Steve, If there's ever something you need identified, just feel free to ask here. Sometimes it's already in the files, but unless you suspect who may have made it, you wouldn't know where to go when you get there to find it. Quite often, the car side number is the give-away as seldom did one manufacturer copy another's car number reporting mark sequence. If asking here, it always helps to tell us the material the car is made
 of. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Without seeing it, the first thing that comes to my mind is Ulrich's cast zamac OH-5 32' Frisco #90883 Twin Offset-Side Hopper, but then that's just a guess. As for searching, I guess you could start by entering any of the manufacturers that you either know or suspect made the car and go from there. There weren't that many that made cast hopper cars. Railmaster made an SL-SF Twin Panel Hopper, but MDC made only Triple Hoppers. Other manufacturers used different materials. Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I like this group, I value the info I pick up from here. Sometimes I just like to go looking and searching for myself.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > You mention HOseeker ... I've
 been on the web site a number of times ... even supplied instruction sheets for some Varney Ore Cars .... Maybe I'm missing something. How do I do a search? I've got a car that I have no idea who makes it. I wanted to search for a 2 bay Frisco hopper but I don't see any way of doing that. Is there a quick way of searching without hit and miss?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > For it's time it was a very good group. I don' think bringing it back would matter. Groups like the vintageHO Yahoo group and
 HOseeker are filling in the voids nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > The only downside I see from not resurrecting it is the possibility that some of the information will be lost. The thing that really bothers me the most is the number of really knowledgeable members who have passed on or do not participate in any group. Many of these were my "inner circle". You name a company and I could put you in touch with a person or persons who could answer a lot of questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > That doesn't mean this group lacks anything. It's that sometimes different information came from different people.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > From: My-Yahoo-Groups 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:53
 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Any way of resurrecting the group? It sounds like it could still be of value.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:59 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Subject: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Hi Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Let me try to explain what the HOSC&H-SIG was. First SIG stands for Special Interest Group and were affiliated with the NMRA ( National Model Railroad Association) . I assume there were more then this group. Also this was started at a time before the electronic age of Yahoo groups and computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
 > HOSC&H ( H O Scale Collectors & History ) was a group founded back in the early 80's by John David Spanagel (The author of Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains ). I was not an original member but became a member not long after that. Membership was open, for a nominal fee of $10 at the start ( for postage and shipping of the newsletter ), to anyone having interest in vintage HO scale. There were 4 newsletters ( The Reporting Mark ) sent a year with information and pictures that members sent in. It covered a variety of HO companies, their products and history.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > As new facts or vintage items were found they were shared with all group members in the newsletter. That is how new updates for the Greenberg Varney book were shared with members. These 20 years of newsletters were a valuable tool in HO history. A lot of this information came about from almost 300 members. (I know a few are in this Yahoo vintage HO group.) A lot
 of, up till then, unknown information became available and was shared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Sorry to say that this group passed out of existence a few years ago. Dave Spanagel wanted to retire from his job and retire from being the "Moderator" of this group to fully enjoy his "golden years".
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Hope that explains HOSC&H-SIG a little.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    >


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10216
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I was kinda hoping that a lot of the folks would 
say they followed and are now members of this group. Maybe open up and get some 
dialog going. I collect a few things, but don't consider myself as an "expert" 
on any of them. I usually only get involved if I know that I can "prove" a fact 
by having the car or item in front of me. I don't like adding to lore or 
rumors.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:08 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 
  HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve, In theory, it wouldn't be a bad idea at all, even if we 
  could get around Dave Spanagel having copyrighted it.  But in practice, 
  unfortunately I see major problems in the concept of this, if you mean to have 
  such a group on line -- although I hope I'm wrong.  Those days, there 
  were no internet groups, so anyone who had any interest in the group and in 
  collecting got involved by sending in some information about items in their 
  collection as they KNEW the other members would be just as interested -- and 
  I'm not meaning that most of us here wouldn't be interested.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    But 
  those days, MANY more people got involved, some with writing complete articles 
  on a manufacturer, and some just sending in a line or two of interest, 
  sometimes only of one item.  These couple of lines may have been of some 
  obscure manufacturer (like Sterling, for instance, which W Jay W. bought up), 
  or maybe just a "new" car side number for Globe or Athearn metal which was 
  previously unknown to most of us.  With this participation and interest, 
  all these different tid-bits that were published quarterly gave us all some 
  idea of direction in which most of the membership was only too eager to see 
  more of -- so those who were more active knew what to send in next to keep the 
  interests up for the rest of us, as it was an ongoing thing; the added 
  information served to feed still more information on what was of interest to 
  most of the members.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Here, I have no idea of what the membership is 
  interested in, and only take clues by what happens to be brought up (sometimes 
  only mentioned as a passing name in a discussion).  Hoping that there's 
  more interest in a topic, since it had been mentioned, I venture to post more 
  on it -- but I still don't know what the interests of most of the other 
  members are, on here.  We seem to have only a comparatively core few of 
  contributers on here (not a criticism), which I fail to understand when I'm 
  sure most of our 431 members must have at least something they've collected -- 
  or I don't think they'd be here (maybe I'm wrong on that?).  Without 
  participation, such as we had in the HOSC&H SIG, knowledge isn't being 
  shared nor is the interest in these items.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    There are innumerable 
  topics I could bring up, just from what I have in my collection, but I have no 
  way of knowing if it would be of interest to anyone else here, as there's no 
  general feel for what topics motivate anyone else.  Fortunately, Jim H. 
  has been taking the initiative to post what he hopes would be of interest to 
  many, but it seems to be only of interest to a few, from lack of feedback I 
  see.  I can understand, that not every member had Dallas Modelcraft or 
  Garco in their collections, but I know I'd be interested in whatever any other 
  member may have.  To start up another version of the HOSC&H with a 
  limited amount of participation would probably see it fail, IMHO.  
  Best,  Ray F W.




                                                                                                                                                                                    ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis" 
  <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Any way of resurrecting the 
  group? It sounds like it could still be of value.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    >   ----- Original 
  Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >   From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >   To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >   Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:59 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    >   
  Subject: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >   Hi Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >                 
  Let me try to explain what the HOSC&H-SIG was. First SIG stands for 
  Special Interest Group and were affiliated with the NMRA ( National Model 
  Railroad Association). I assume there were more then this group. Also this was 
  started at a time before the electronic age of Yahoo groups and 
  computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >            
  HOSC&H ( H O Scale Collectors & History ) was a group founded back in 
  the early 80's by John David Spanagel (The author of Greenberg's Guide to 
  Varney Trains ). I was not an original member but became a member not long 
  after that. Membership was open, for a nominal fee of $10 at the start ( for 
  postage and shipping of the newsletter ), to anyone having interest in vintage 
  HO scale. There were 4 newsletters  ( The Reporting Mark ) sent a year 
  with information and pictures that members sent in. It covered a variety of HO 
  companies, their products and history.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >           As new 
  facts or vintage items were found they were shared with all group members in 
  the newsletter. That is how new updates for the Greenberg Varney book were 
  shared with members. These 20 years of newsletters were a valuable tool in HO 
  history. A lot of this information came about from almost 300 members. (I know 
  a few are in this Yahoo vintage HO group.)  A lot of, up till then, 
  unknown information became available and was shared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >           Sorry to 
  say that this group passed out of existence a few years ago. Dave Spanagel 
  wanted to retire from his job and retire from being the "Moderator" of this 
  group to fully enjoy his "golden years".
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >          Hope that 
  explains HOSC&H-SIG a little.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >                                                                                                    
  Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >




                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10217
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    That looks like the car I've got ... what 
make?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:58 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 
  HOSC&H-SIG [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Attached is a pic of one previously on ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10218
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: more American Beauty
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                              A large part of my 
vintage HO collection of passenger cars are on shelves for viewing. They are 
cars that came assembled or I have assembled. I also have a large number of 
passenger cars kits, still in original boxes, some completely sealed, many 
mint.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              I didn't plan to 
show each and every car. To open a box , lay out the contents for pictures and 
viewing isn't easy especially dealing with so many cars from so many 
manufacturers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              However , 
after some mention of full size 85' American Beauty cars I thought I would 
show at least one sample. I have added a second picture that I will describe, 
for now, as an oddity.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              The first picture 
if for a full size model of an 85' Observation car for the NYC. Shown in the 
picture are the contents of the box. It shows the assembly plans, a 
layout for the roof detail,  pre shaped wood parts (top, bottom and end) 
for assembling the body, extra wood pieces for underneath detail, a parts sheet 
(pink paper), the metal and heavy cardboard pieces for creating the end of the 
Observation car, 2 metal pieces and a "rubber" diaphragm plus metal pieces for 
making the coupler able to swing further. It also contained, but not shown, an 
assembly sheet for the American Beauty trucks you had to assemble even though NO 
trucks were in the box. not shown on the parts list either.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
The last picture is an American Beauty kit (includes everything I just cited). 
The "odd" part is the body is undecorated but painted yellow and not just 
painted over the normally well decorated cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            Both 
these cars have the  16553 Fielding    Detroit 19 
Michigan  address on the plans.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10219
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                               Anyone ever 
go to MRSD (Model Railroad Supply Depot) in Red Bank, NJ ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:03 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jay, It occurred to me that we may have crossed paths at some time. I 
  also used to visit Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, both in the old store and then in 
  the newly (then) remodelled store. Do you remember Rich's Hobbytown in 
  Parsippany -- right off Rt. 46? He later opened another store in Oakland (NJ, 
  for those wondering if I meant CA). Back then, there were a lot of hobby shops 
  around. Now you have to travel some to get to one. I guess you now go to Ray 
  Threllfall's Model Railway Post Office Supply in Greenwood Lake? I believe I 
  saw where he was thinking of retiring, great guy. Best, Ray F W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > John H., 
  Yes, three grins from me, and probably a fourth as those black grease pencil 
  discount price markings look just like the ones made by "Joe" at Hi-Way Hobby 
  in Ramsey, NJ in the 1960's, the go-to spot for model railroading supplies in 
  suburban Northern NJ back then! It was not too difficult to convince my dad to 
  take a 14 mile drive over there a couple of times a month, even if it was only 
  for a headlight casting and decal! W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Here are two 
  photos of the Aerotrain boxes just for grins
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > John 
  Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10220
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/24/2009 5:26:33 PM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Would be interested in seeing the bob tail observation you talk about. I assume this is a sreamlined car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Well, I finally got the digital camera back from the wife and dug out the car down in the basement.  I have no idea of the manufacturer.  Heck!  I can't even remember where I picked the car up, but it was a long time ago.  Any help in identifying it would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    First photo shows the left side of the car.  Second is the left side and front; note how little detail (that's none) is on the front end casting.  Next is the right side of the car with the rear end removed; you can see the wood floor that's inside the car.  Last photo is of the trucks; they're sprung, but the springs are missing from one side of one truck.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The pics are in a folder labelled "D&H Ralph's HO."
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10221
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Blue Line Passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            Thanks. 
I like the look of both American Beauty and Blue Line. My problem is I can't 
have one of everyone. I have kind of stretched myself "thin" trying to get 
something from so many companies that produced HO passenger cars. I intend, over 
the course of time to share these also. I'm sure some have not even heard of 
them. If they enjoy and are interested is great. If not they will be in albums 
for viewing by others and new members.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         (PSST. RAY   How 
could a Varney expert { and I mean that } not mention Varney's streamlined 
3 car sets {numerous roadnames} of metal , factory painted, well done 
passenger sets that came in kits.  20 lashes with that wet 
noodle.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:47 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Blue Line 
  Passenger cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim, Nice pics of some nice cars! Always a joy to see well-done 
  built-ups of these kits. See what I mean about being a toss-up between these 
  and American Beauty? They're both great model lines to have. We're probably 
  very fortunate that these manufacturers produced these factory painted and 
  lettered cars for us to enjoy -- got a bunch myself, some complete sets. Can't 
  beat them, but then you can't beat A.B.'s either <grin>. I don't think 
  any other manufacturer besides Walthers, with a limited line of their 
  metal-sides cars, offered factory finished (painted) kits -- and their's were 
  heavyweights. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Richard Wright's MHP (Model Hobby Products) cars were 
  real nice, but they needed to be painted -- and even though they were more 
  specific to the car designs, he only covered a few Western Roads. Great for 
  modeling the SP though; he did a number of different articulated cars, which W 
  Jay W. mentioned, including articulated chair cars, articulated dining cars 
  and articulated dining-lounge cars, some which were three-section 
  articulateds. I have a few of them, but never tried building them. They look 
  like too much work (LOL). Ray

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Since I have free time right now I took pictures of 5 of the Blue 
  Line full size passenger cars. I will send the other 4 types in about an hour. 
  I have not dug out the books to identify what each car is. I know that all 9 
  are different. Perhaps someone with knowledge of the real thing can ID what 
  each car was called by the window pattern and save me some time. My tired old 
  legs won't let me keep going up and down to the basement.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  These cars are all metal and factory painted / lithographed / baked enamel. 
  Not sure what to they are called. They came in a number of road names. This is 
  the only complete 9 car set I have although I also have an 8 car Pennsy set 
  and others in kit form. In some of the cars you can see window material that 
  is pre printed with curtains/drapes, whatever. Each kit, depending on the type 
  of car had the window material with it. It slide into"grooves in the sides of 
  the cars.The cars assembled pretty easy except for the Observation. The roof, 
  sides and floors had "grooves" that joined the parts together when you slide 
  one piece into the other. I hope I'm explaining that so it could be 
  understood. Depending on the type of car you got plastic roof details to 
  add.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Blue Line had their own trucks, already assembled and 
  packed two in a box. I'm trying to remember if they came in the kit but can't 
  be sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I feel these Blue Line cars are pretty good looking 
  and show off nice. The one part I didn't like was that they gave you a piece 
  of balsa that you had to shape and fit into the ends of the cars. It was 
  extremely hard to make them fit decent (In my opinion) because of the slide 
  together construction I mentioned earlier. For one of the few times in my 
  vintage collection I took the liberty of buying metal ends and installing them 
  on this set to make them look better. I will show you a picture with the last 
  4 cars of this. However I left the balsa piece with the unbuilt kits
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > It's late and I'm trying to remember to much just "off the top of my 
  head" If need be I will send close-ups of the trucks and the slide together 
  construction after I show the last 4 cars. Tomorrow I will show you a mint 
  boxed set of Blue Line shorty cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10222
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            Took a 
quick look at your pictures before I have to go out.  I believe the car is 
by Sampson. The second picture that shows the end opposite the tailend is 
Sampson. They usually crumpled and cracked over time. I actually had 
Dan Bush of Yardbird Trains have some new ones cast for me. Sampson made many 
streamlined cars both full size and "shorties". While I have numerous cars, 
in boxes and assembled in my collection, I'm sure they made many more 
types. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        One thing to remember about 
Sampson passenger cars is that the mixture the body is made from gets a 
"coating" that people try to take off with a wire brush (by hand or on a 
drill).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Be very careful as the dust is 
toxic. If I remember right it is the magnesium in the bodies alloy mixture. Do 
it outside and still wear a mask.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I must leave 
but will check closer when I get back but I'm pretty sure it is 
Sampson.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:23 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Cast 
  aluminum cars [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/24/2009 5:26:33 PM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Would be interested in seeing the bob tail observation you talk 
    about. I assume this is a sreamlined car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ -
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Well, I finally got the digital camera back from the wife and dug out the 
  car down in the basement.  I have no idea of the manufacturer.  
  Heck!  I can't even remember where I picked the car up, but it was a long 
  time ago.  Any help in identifying it would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    First photo shows the left side of the car.  Second is the left side 
  and front; note how little detail (that's none) is on the front end 
  casting.  Next is the right side of the car with the rear end removed; 
  you can see the wood floor that's inside the car.  Last photo is of the 
  trucks; they're sprung, but the springs are missing from one side of one 
  truck.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    The pics are in a folder labelled "D&H Ralph's HO."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10223
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Blue Line Passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim,  OOPS!!!  I had that nagging feeling I fogot something.  That's what happens when you get old -- a "senior moment."  It may have been that subconsciously, I don't put the Varney metal passenger cars on quite the same level as American Beauty or Blue Line, even though I love 'em; got tons of them.  Think I told you Dick Mercer sent me a whole bunch, probably 2 or 3 dozen, added to what I already have.  For what they are, even though they may not be quite as good as the other two makers, they make a decent looking train.  Later, Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ---In vintageHO$@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         Thanks. I like the look of both American Beauty and Blue Line. My problem is I can't have one of everyone. I have kind of stretched myself "thin" trying to get something from so many companies that produced HO passenger cars. I intend, over the course of time to share these also. I'm sure some have not even heard of them. If they enjoy and are interested is great. If not they will be in albums for viewing by others and new members.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      (PSST. RAY   How could a Varney expert { and I mean that } not mention Varney's streamlined 3 car sets {numerous roadnames} of metal , factory painted, well done passenger sets that came in kits.  20 lashes with that wet noodle.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:47 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Blue Line Passenger cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Hi Jim, Nice pics of some nice cars! Always a joy to see well-done built-ups of these kits. See what I mean about being a toss-up between these and American Beauty? They're both great model lines to have. We're probably very fortunate that these manufacturers produced these factory painted and lettered cars for us to enjoy -- got a bunch myself, some complete sets. Can't beat them, but then you can't beat A.B.'s either <grin>. I don't think any other manufacturer besides Walthers, with a limited line of their metal-sides cars, offered factory finished (painted) kits -- and their's were heavyweights. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Richard Wright's MHP (Model Hobby Products) cars were real nice, but they needed to be painted -- and even though they were more specific to the car designs, he only covered a few Western Roads. Great for modeling the SP though; he did a number of different articulated cars, which W Jay W. mentioned, including articulated chair cars, articulated dining cars and articulated dining-lounge cars, some which were three-section articulateds. I have a few of them, but never tried building them. They look like too much work (LOL). Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Since I have free time right now I took pictures of 5 of the Blue Line full size passenger cars. I will send the other 4 types in about an hour. I have not dug out the books to identify what each car is. I know that all 9 are different. Perhaps someone with knowledge of the real thing can ID what each car was called by the window pattern and save me some time. My tired old legs won't let me keep going up and down to the basement.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > These cars are all metal and factory painted / lithographed / baked enamel. Not sure what to they are called. They came in a number of road names. This is the only complete 9 car set I have although I also have an 8 car Pennsy set and others in kit form. In some of the cars you can see window material that is pre printed with curtains/drapes, whatever. Each kit, depending on the type of car had the window material with it. It slide into"grooves in the sides of the cars.The cars assembled pretty easy except for the Observation. The roof, sides and floors had "grooves" that joined the parts together when you slide one piece into the other. I hope I'm explaining that so it could be understood. Depending on the type of car you got plastic roof details to add.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Blue Line had their own trucks, already assembled and packed two in a box. I'm trying to remember if they came in the kit but can't be sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I feel these Blue Line cars are pretty good looking and show off nice. The one part I didn't like was that they gave you a piece of balsa that you had to shape and fit into the ends of the cars. It was extremely hard to make them fit decent (In my opinion) because of the slide together construction I mentioned earlier. For one of the few times in my vintage collection I took the liberty of buying metal ends and installing them on this set to make them look better. I will show you a picture with the last 4 cars of this. However I left the balsa piece with the unbuilt kits
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > It's late and I'm trying to remember to much just "off the top of my head" If need be I will send close-ups of the trucks and the slide together construction after I show the last 4 cars. Tomorrow I will show you a mint boxed set of Blue Line shorty cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10224
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    My-Yahoo-Groups wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > I was kinda hoping that a lot of the folks would say they followed and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> are now members of this group. Maybe open up and get some dialog going. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I collect a few things, but don't consider myself as an "expert" on any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of them. I usually only get involved if I know that I can "prove" a fact 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> by having the car or item in front of me. I don't like adding to lore or 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> rumors.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     *From:* erieberk <mailto:erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Here, I have no idea of what the membership is interested in, and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     only take clues by what happens to be brought up (sometimes only
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     mentioned as a passing name in a discussion).  Hoping that there's
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     more interest in a topic, since it had been mentioned, I venture to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     post more on it -- but I still don't know what the interests of most
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     of the other members are, on here.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, personally, "collecting" is not an interest of mine, and most 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
of the threads regarding who made such-and-such in what numbers and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
which years holds no interest for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    The reason I'm here is that for a model of a wooden prototype I like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
an actual wooden model. No matter what I or the manufacturer does, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
plastic still doesn't look "right" to me. That means vintage craftsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
kits like Ambroid, Silver Streak, Central Valley and Ulrich, among 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
others, since few of these are still being manufactured today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Crude early plastic kits such as Varney or Globe are not an interest 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
of mine. If I want a metal prototype a modern P2K, Tichy, Intermountain 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
or Red Caboose kit is about the closest thing to a plastic craftsman kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    So I do have a "collection" of sorts - hundreds of those old Central 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Valley, Ulrich, Silver Streak wooden kits and Menzies, nee Athearn, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
metal kits - but purely for the satisfaction of building them. There's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
no goal to get one of every model or road number from any particular 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
manufacturer, or even to learn that information.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Don't let my lack of interest in "collecting" stop anybody else from 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
sharing if that is their goal. I'll skip over the threads as I have been 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
doing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Chocolate is serious business."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    -Deanna Troi, "Star Trek: The Next Generation"
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10225
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Blue Line Passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I think that "MHP" was originally "Monroe Hobby Products"--the cars were 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
previously produced and marketed as "B-C Models" by "Boxcar Ken" Casford. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
It was primarily an O Scale line.  An interesting feature was the way the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
edge of the roof was milled to provide a groove into which the top of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
sheet metal side fit.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 3:47 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Blue Line Passenger cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10226
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    If it is a die-cast hopper, I'd say either Ulrich (most likely) or 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
MDC-Roundhouse (a couple of their later cars were triple hoppers, rib- and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
offset-side.)  Just before they went to plastic with the die-cast underbody. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 5:37 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steve, Just to help narrow this down, Athearn never made any metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> hoppers.  Your description could fit a few, but Ulrich used plastic 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> bushings to be inserted into the frame to install the truck-mounting 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> screws into.  A description of the end-side joint would be helpful, as to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> whether these areas are beveled or meet flat-on with a notch to lock them 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in place.  Sounds like an Ulrich, although they generally used only one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> car number with any one road name, although they did use two different 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> numbers on a few of their cars (your #90760 could still be an Ulrich, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> not as commonly seen); but a pic would help as well if you could send one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> It is metal, no trucks or couplers. When I first saw it, I though it was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> an Athearn by the type and shape of the weights. it has Frisco, SL-SF 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> #90760. The frame is metal, but the trucks mount into plastic inserts, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> much like some of the old Roundhouse cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   From: erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 6:39 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   Steve,  If there's ever something you need identified, just feel free 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> to ask here.  Sometimes it's already in the files, but unless you suspect 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> who may have made it, you wouldn't know where to go when you get there to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> find it.  Quite often, the car side number is the give-away as seldom did 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> one manufacturer copy another's car number reporting mark sequence.  If 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> asking here, it always helps to tell us the material the car is made of.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   Without seeing it, the first thing that comes to my mind is Ulrich's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> cast zamac OH-5 32' Frisco #90883 Twin Offset-Side Hopper, but then 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> that's just a guess.  As for searching, I guess you could start by 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> entering any of the manufacturers that you either know or suspect made 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the car and go from there.  There weren't that many that made cast hopper 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> cars.  Railmaster made an SL-SF Twin Panel Hopper, but MDC made only 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Triple Hoppers.  Other manufacturers used different materials.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   > Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   > I like this group, I value the info I pick up from here. Sometimes I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> just like to go looking and searching for myself.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   > You mention HOseeker ... I've been on the web site a number of times 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ... even supplied instruction sheets for some Varney Ore Cars .... Maybe 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I'm missing something. How do I do a search? I've got a car that I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> no idea who makes it. I wanted to search for a 2 bay Frisco hopper but I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> don't see any way of doing that. Is there a quick way of searching 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> without hit and miss?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   > Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >   From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >   Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >   Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >             For it's time it was a very good group. I don' think 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> bringing it back would matter. Groups like the vintageHO Yahoo group and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> HOseeker are filling in the voids nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >            The only downside I see from not resurrecting it is the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> possibility that some of the information will be lost. The thing that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> really bothers me the most is the number of really knowledgeable members 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> who have passed on or do not participate in any group. Many of these were 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> my "inner circle". You name a company and I could put you in touch with a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> person or persons who could answer a lot of questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >             That doesn't mean this group lacks anything. It's that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> sometimes different information came from different people.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >     From: My-Yahoo-Groups
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >     Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >     Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >     Any way of resurrecting the group? It sounds like it could still 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> be of value.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >     Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >       From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >       To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >       Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:59 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >       Subject: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >       Hi Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >                     Let me try to explain what the HOSC&H-SIG was. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> First SIG stands for Special Interest Group and were affiliated with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> NMRA ( National Model Railroad Association). I assume there were more 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> then this group. Also this was started at a time before the electronic 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> age of Yahoo groups and computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >                HOSC&H ( H O Scale Collectors & History ) was a group 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> founded back in the early 80's by John David Spanagel (The author of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains ). I was not an original member but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> became a member not long after that. Membership was open, for a nominal 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> fee of $10 at the start ( for postage and shipping of the newsletter ), 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> to anyone having interest in vintage HO scale. There were 4 newsletters 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ( The Reporting Mark ) sent a year with information and pictures that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> members sent in. It covered a variety of HO companies, their products and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> history.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >               As new facts or vintage items were found they were 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> shared with all group members in the newsletter. That is how new updates 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> for the Greenberg Varney book were shared with members. These 20 years of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> newsletters were a valuable tool in HO history. A lot of this information 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> came about from almost 300 members. (I know a few are in this Yahoo 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> vintage HO group.)  A lot of, up till then, unknown information became 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> available and was shared.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >               Sorry to say that this group passed out of existence a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> few years ago. Dave Spanagel wanted to retire from his job and retire 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> from being the "Moderator" of this group to fully enjoy his "golden 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> years".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >              Hope that explains HOSC&H-SIG a little.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.12.7/2085 - Release Date: 04/28/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10227
						From: erieberk
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph,  This is a Sampson car, as Jim said -- Catalog # SL-14 Corregated (Budd) 65' Shorty Observation -- original list price $3.75.  We'll do a listing on this manufacturer if interested.  Sampson made full size (85') and short corregated and smooth side cars in extruded magnesium.  Made other items too, like a sheet brass FM 1000 hp diesel switcher.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Alpvalsys@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In a message dated 4/24/2009 5:26:33 PM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Would be interested in seeing the bob tail observation you talk about. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> assume this is a sreamlined car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Well, I finally got the digital camera back from the wife and dug out the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> car down in the basement.  I have no idea of the manufacturer.  Heck!  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> can't even remember where I picked the car up, but it was a long time ago.  Any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> help in identifying it would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> First photo shows the left side of the car.  Second is the left side and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> front; note how little detail (that's none) is on the front end casting.  Next 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> is the right side of the car with the rear end removed; you can see the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> wood floor that's inside the car.  Last photo is of the trucks; they're sprung, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> but the springs are missing from one side of one truck.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The pics are in a folder labelled "D&H Ralph's HO."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> **************Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Desktops!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220631276x1201390200/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.double
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> click.net%2Fclk%3B214101948%3B35952020%3Bv)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10228
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve, sorry, the pic was from an ebay listing some time ago that did not identify the maker. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I just thought with a picture maybe someone else can name the maker.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 9:12:24 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re:
 [vintageHO]Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG

                                                                                                                                                                                    









    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    That looks like the car I've got ... what 
make?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:58 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 
  HOSC&H-SIG [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Attached is a pic of one previously on ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10229
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: FRISCO Hoper ID search   ULRICH?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Steve, I went back to W. Jay W.'s message from earlier in this thread, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    and pasted it right below this message, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    because basically I used the method he describes to make at least a possible ID on this hopper.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Many members use similar methods, this example is just a neat and tidy one.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm a novice at vintage HO identification, but I do online research fulltime for work and part time for rr history and model railroad hobby purposes, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    so like many in this group, I enjoy looking for needles in haystacks.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I used the info you gave in your letter about herald, car number, and material to search on ebay.  nothing.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I dropped the "SL SF" and jsut used the car number and "HO"  and "hopper".

                                                                                                                                                                                    I used those terms to search on google, which brought up an old ebay
 listing.  If you click on it, nothing. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    So I clicked on the "cached" link under the listing on google, which is a stored entry on google's servers.

                                                                                                                                                                                    That brought up the old listing with the photo.  It also listed it as FRISCO, rather than SL SF.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I went to HO seeker, remembered ULRICH and MDC were suggested as likely makers.

                                                                                                                                                                                    (I collect all metal vintage HO diesel switchers, and I've picked up some metal freight cars along the way, including an Ulrich hopper, but with flat sides not offset, so no help there..)

                                                                                                                                                                                    I tried ULRICH first on HOseeker, thinking I'd go on to MDC if there was nothing under ULRICH.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I started with the oldest ULRICH catalogs, and worked my way forward.

                                                                                                                                                                                    There is a similar FRISCO hopper is identified in the catalogs from 53 55 and 61.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 8:14:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: was, HOSC&H-SIG, now Searching for Model ID

                                                                                                                                                                                    








    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Steve, and All! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Like Ray F W and "curmugeon" I use a sort of "decision tree" when trying to identify a model, i.e. general construction; if hard diecast zamac metal, than these companies, if diecast lead based metal than these; if embossed thin metal or card, look at these.  But it takes a while to get to know the various firms, too, what model making processes they used at various times, which comes with time.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I still use eBay as a tool, too.  Entering in Frisco and hopper and see what turns up, both completed sales and current, and may do it for a few weeks, as patience comes in handy.  HO Seeker has grown tremendously over the past few years for older vintage models; Tony Cook's website is good for newer, but out of production r-t-r plastic lines. But one has to have a few good leads to cut down on the search time.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
If you are in a part of the country with frequent train shows, there is no substitute for being able to pick up many different models and get a feel for early Varney and Mantua, for comparing Ulrich's and MDC's work, plus some of the sellers are knowledgible willing to share; years ago, I found one who happened to be a proofreader of the Varney Guide and though having moved from my area, still sends his annual list.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Even if you don't have much in the way of your own "database" of old catalogs, instructions and magazines, having a few old catalogs may give you a hint and a direction to follow.  The Varney Guide helped me identify another company's similar card-sided flat car that had me stumped a few years ago as at least three manufacturers had almost identical models.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And like those before me have said, a most important resource is the knowledge of the many here who are ready and willing to help out and enjoy the challenge. I have found that I learn a lot in the hunt, too, as I work out the problem to be solved.  That must have been evident in my and Jim H's step by step exchange of a half dozen or so messages this past weekend on what we both believe are likely GARCO FT locomotive castings.  But it was those very exchanges with Jim that pretty much settled that almost 15 year old question I could not seem to answer on my own, plus I enjoyed the process.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And the speed that information can be found here is also amazing as when I posted the photos of the "Oak Valley" models and within less than 24 hours, we knew who the Oak Valley's brass hat was. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Speaking of Oak Valley, for the past several weeks I have been trying to track down the manufacturer of the 40' flat car kit that was used to build the Oak Valley car, as it is missing one cast white metal side I am looking to replace.  Not one of the more than a dozen Red Ball flat car varieties, not Walthers, nor a shortened AC/LW/YOHP, I'm thinking possibly Sterling (or a Selly copy), but don't have one of those yet.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
But I'm having fun tracking one of those down and that is part of my enjoyment of Vintage HO.  Maybe I'll end up making a list of Sterling kits, too, as I had none until this past winter, now I have the wedge plow, pickle car and a neatly assembled helium car. Who knows what's next!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10230
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Drop some bait in the water and see who or what bites to get more info, I do not know much of the early HO stuff except what I have read here and in some of my olde Model Railroader. See what happens.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Charkie W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
It's News. It's Reviews. It's Interviews. It's Free. What Are You Waiting For?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
www.movieline.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10231
						From: David Helber
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2 - Making it practical?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- Curmudgeon sez:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >The main issue for me always was the axle bearings.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>And probably drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>... I'd get rod lock with them all the time... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>the plastic "clips" didn't last very long that held it together. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Ohhhh, Ghaddd! It all comes flooding horribly back ...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- Mike sez:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >wipe the ... electrical path with ... electronic contact cleaner/conditioner, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>include the motor mounting screw ... Also do a very tiny drop of light oil 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>on each of the motor shaft bearings ... lube and oil the axles, gears, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>and cranks...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>You should see that it now runs almost as well as a new Kato. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks, Mike. I'll certainly do it just as you describe. I hope you don't mind if I take the phrase "almost as well as a new Kato" with just a teeeny grain of salt for the moment. If it turns out to be true, I'll come back and apologize and thank you even more profusely.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- W Jay W sez:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >... the American Beauty passenger cars ... employed a special stamped steel coupler >mount that allowed operation on a sharper radius...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>It might be worth a shot.  Finding the parts to experiment should not be too difficult >within our Vintage group!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jay, I knew that some European HO passenger cars employed a system like that, but I'd never seen an example. The drawings give me a starting point to experiment with something similar.  I don't think the A.B. parts would do me any good, though - the situation is too different. I have to work between footboards, or else attach them to the swinging coupler pocket, like the early N-gauge diesels did. Once I get the loco running, I'll can test how much extra side-play is needed, and work from there. Probably it'll take scratching up a "short-throw" version from brass or styrene. Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- David
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10232
						From: solly_46
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Wanted Athearn Black Widow Shell for F7A
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Wanted Athearn Black Widow Shell for F7A
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks,Randy
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10233
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2 - Making it practical?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Just took my 4-2-0 out of the display cabinet - the first time for years 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
- and put it on the - dirty - test track , somewhat worried by the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
previous comments ... to my relief she works reasonably well, and when 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
placing her in a curve of 16" radius the rear coupler head was still 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
well within the outside rail and didnt provide any problems remaining 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
coupled to a 40ft boxcar.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Maybe I have bought a loco that has seen little use  by previous owners, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
but I would suggest to give her a try. If you want to have more coupler 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
swing a Kadee 30 series long shank coupler with the mounting box so the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
coupler may swing out farther sideways may help.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10234
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Shops was: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    My two hobby shops in NJ are The Big Little 
Railroad Shop in Somerville and the Model Railroad Shop in Piscataway. Both very 
good stores.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:12 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 
  Aerotrain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               Anyone 
  ever go to MRSD (Model Railroad Supply Depot) in Red Bank, NJ ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
    erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:03 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 
Aerotrain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jay, It occurred to me that we may have crossed paths at some time. I 
    also used to visit Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, both in the old store and then in 
    the newly (then) remodelled store. Do you remember Rich's Hobbytown in 
    Parsippany -- right off Rt. 46? He later opened another store in Oakland 
    (NJ, for those wondering if I meant CA). Back then, there were a lot of 
    hobby shops around. Now you have to travel some to get to one. I guess you 
    now go to Ray Threllfall's Model Railway Post Office Supply in Greenwood 
    Lake? I believe I saw where he was thinking of retiring, great guy. Best, 
    Ray F W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
    "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > John 
    H., Yes, three grins from me, and probably a fourth as those black grease 
    pencil discount price markings look just like the ones made by "Joe" at 
    Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, NJ in the 1960's, the go-to spot for model 
    railroading supplies in suburban Northern NJ back then! It was not too 
    difficult to convince my dad to take a 14 mile drive over there a couple of 
    times a month, even if it was only for a headlight casting and decal! W Jay 
    W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
    "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Here are 
    two photos of the Aerotrain boxes just for grins
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10235
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    No, but I saw my first Aerotrain at the Hobby Horse in Waukesha.  (If 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
anybody has an early 60's edition of Kalmbach's "Introduction to Scale Model 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Railroading" there's a picture of Linn Westcott talking across the counter 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with a somewhat portly gentleman.  That's Mario at the Hobby Horse).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 9:12 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
           Anyone ever go to MRSD (Model Railroad Supply Depot) in Red Bank, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
NJ ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  From: erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:03 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Hi Jay, It occurred to me that we may have crossed paths at some time. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
also used to visit Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, both in the old store and then in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the newly (then) remodelled store. Do you remember Rich's Hobbytown in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Parsippany -- right off Rt. 46? He later opened another store in Oakland 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(NJ, for those wondering if I meant CA). Back then, there were a lot of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
hobby shops around. Now you have to travel some to get to one. I guess you 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
now go to Ray Threllfall's Model Railway Post Office Supply in Greenwood 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Lake? I believe I saw where he was thinking of retiring, great guy. Best, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ray F W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10236
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: FRISCO Hoper ID search   ULRICH? [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ok, I see in the 1953 catalog that there is a 
listing for a 3936H St. Louis San Francisco offset hopper .... but how would I 
know if it is the car that I have? It doesn't list a road number?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:28 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: FRISCO Hoper ID 
  search ULRICH? [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Steve, I went back to W. Jay W.'s message from earlier in this thread, 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    and pasted it right below this message, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    because basically I used the 
  method he describes to make at least a possible ID on this hopper.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Many 
  members use similar methods, this example is just a neat and tidy one.  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm a novice at vintage HO identification, but I do online research 
  fulltime for work and part time for rr history and model railroad hobby 
  purposes, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    so like many in this group, I enjoy looking for needles in 
  haystacks.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I used the info you gave in your letter about herald, car 
  number, and material to search on ebay.  nothing.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I dropped the 
  "SL SF" and jsut used the car number and "HO"  and "hopper".

                                                                                                                                                                                    I 
  used those terms to search on google, which brought up an old ebay 
  listing.  If you click on it, nothing. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    So I 
  clicked on the "cached" link under the listing on google, which is a stored 
  entry on google's servers.

                                                                                                                                                                                    That brought up the old listing with the 
  photo.  It also listed it as FRISCO, rather than SL SF.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I went to 
  HO seeker, remembered ULRICH and MDC were suggested as likely 
  makers.

                                                                                                                                                                                    (I collect all metal vintage HO diesel switchers, and I've 
  picked up some metal freight cars along the way, including an Ulrich hopper, 
  but with flat sides not offset, so no help there..)

                                                                                                                                                                                    I tried ULRICH 
  first on HOseeker, thinking I'd go on to MDC if there was nothing under 
  ULRICH.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I started with the oldest ULRICH catalogs, and worked my way 
  forward.

                                                                                                                                                                                    There is a similar FRISCO hopper is identified in the catalogs 
  from 53 55 and 61.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.


                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  From: the_plainsman 
  <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 8:14:06 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 
  was, HOSC&H-SIG, now Searching for Model ID

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Steve, and All! 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Like Ray F W and "curmugeon" I use a sort of 
  "decision tree" when trying to identify a model, i.e. general construction; if 
  hard diecast zamac metal, than these companies, if diecast lead based metal 
  than these; if embossed thin metal or card, look at these. But it takes a 
  while to get to know the various firms, too, what model making processes they 
  used at various times, which comes with time. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I still use eBay as a 
  tool, too. Entering in Frisco and hopper and see what turns up, both completed 
  sales and current, and may do it for a few weeks, as patience comes in handy. 
  HO Seeker has grown tremendously over the past few years for older vintage 
  models; Tony Cook's website is good for newer, but out of production r-t-r 
  plastic lines. But one has to have a few good leads to cut down on the search 
  time. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    If you are in a part of the country with frequent train shows, 
  there is no substitute for being able to pick up many different models and get 
  a feel for early Varney and Mantua, for comparing Ulrich's and MDC's work, 
  plus some of the sellers are knowledgible willing to share; years ago, I found 
  one who happened to be a proofreader of the Varney Guide and though having 
  moved from my area, still sends his annual list.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Even if you don't have 
  much in the way of your own "database" of old catalogs, instructions and 
  magazines, having a few old catalogs may give you a hint and a direction to 
  follow. The Varney Guide helped me identify another company's similar 
  card-sided flat car that had me stumped a few years ago as at least three 
  manufacturers had almost identical models. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    And like those before me 
  have said, a most important resource is the knowledge of the many here who are 
  ready and willing to help out and enjoy the challenge. I have found that I 
  learn a lot in the hunt, too, as I work out the problem to be solved. That 
  must have been evident in my and Jim H's step by step exchange of a half dozen 
  or so messages this past weekend on what we both believe are likely GARCO FT 
  locomotive castings. But it was those very exchanges with Jim that pretty much 
  settled that almost 15 year old question I could not seem to answer on my own, 
  plus I enjoyed the process.

                                                                                                                                                                                    And the speed that information can be found 
  here is also amazing as when I posted the photos of the "Oak Valley" models 
  and within less than 24 hours, we knew who the Oak Valley's brass hat was. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Speaking of Oak Valley, for the past several weeks I have been trying 
  to track down the manufacturer of the 40' flat car kit that was used to build 
  the Oak Valley car, as it is missing one cast white metal side I am looking to 
  replace. Not one of the more than a dozen Red Ball flat car varieties, not 
  Walthers, nor a shortened AC/LW/YOHP, I'm thinking possibly Sterling (or a 
  Selly copy), but don't have one of those yet. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    But I'm having fun 
  tracking one of those down and that is part of my enjoyment of Vintage HO. 
  Maybe I'll end up making a list of Sterling kits, too, as I had none until 
  this past winter, now I have the wedge plow, pickle car and a neatly assembled 
  helium car. Who knows what's next!

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay 
  W.


                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10237
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Blue Line "Shorties"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                          This will be the end 
of Blue Line passenger cars. The pictures show the tag on the end of the 
original box and the three car set inside. These are  mint Blue 
Line"Shorties". They are made of metal and are 4 pieces ( except the 
Observation which is 3, wrap around body ). They are factory painted. The 
roof and two sides are locked together by "grooves and slots".The bottom is spot 
welded . The cars came assembled and wrapped in brown wax paper so they don't 
knick as they are packaged tightly in the box.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          There are no trucks. 
Includes wooden dowels, pieces of wood for the ends and underside detail.  
There were "rubber" diaphragms and a large loop of wire for handrails and such. 
There are some detail parts for the roofs but the odd part is the plans are for 
the Blue Line 85' cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          On to other 
passenger cars later.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10238
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/29/2009 10:47:06 AM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    One thing to remember about Sampson passenger cars is that the mixture the body is made from gets a "coating" that people try to take off with a wire brush (by hand or on a drill).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Be very careful as the dust is toxic. If I remember right it is the magnesium in the bodies alloy mixture.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    "It tarnishes slightly when exposed to air...magnesium is protected by a thin layer of oxide which is fairly impermeable and hard to remove.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    "The magnesium ion is necessary for all life...so magnesium salts (e.g., epson salts) are an additive for foods, fertilizers...and culture media.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    "Magnesium metal and alloys are highly flammable in their pure form...as a powder.... Magnesium powder is an explosive hazard."
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Interesting material.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops!                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10239
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: FRISCO Hoper ID search   ULRICH?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve, several other years of Ulrich catalogs on that HOSeeker page also list an offset metal two bay hopper, but as FRISCO, based on the cetner FRISCO graphic herald, rather than SL SF.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Each of those listings also have an asterisk next to the FRISCO listing that denotes "peaked ends"
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Does your hopper have peaked ends?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    As for road numbers, it looks like ULRICH changed their kit numbers for these kits almost every year.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Someone else may know if ULRICH kits were furnished with decals of specific road numbers, or multiple numbers, or just number sets, I don't know, but since these were kits, it may not be surprising the road numbers are not listed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    This is documentation from products sold over fifty years ago for less than $5, so it's certainly not an exact science. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The only identification that will even be reasonably certain will be from matching your car to an unmodified car or kit with original packaging.  Till you have that, it's all speculation.  but the hunt is the fun, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 5:43:14 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: FRISCO Hoper ID search ULRICH?

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ok, I see in the 1953 catalog that there is a listing for a 3936H St. Louis San Francisco offset hopper .... but how would I know if it is the car that I have? It doesn't list a road number?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Chris B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:28 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: FRISCO Hoper ID search ULRICH? [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Steve, I went back to W. Jay W.'s message from earlier in this thread, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    and pasted it right below this message, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    because basically I used the method he describes to make at least a possible ID on this hopper.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Many members use similar methods, this example is just a neat and tidy one.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm a novice at vintage HO identification, but I do online research fulltime for work and part time for rr history and model railroad hobby purposes, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    so like many in this group, I enjoy looking for needles in haystacks.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I used the info you gave in your letter about herald, car number, and material to search on ebay.  nothing.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I dropped the "SL SF" and jsut used the car number and "HO"  and "hopper".

                                                                                                                                                                                    I used those terms to search on google, which brought up an old ebay listing.  If you click on it, nothing. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    So I clicked on the "cached" link under the listing on google, which is a stored entry on google's servers.

                                                                                                                                                                                    That brought up the old listing with the photo.  It also listed it as FRISCO, rather than SL SF.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I went to HO seeker, remembered ULRICH and MDC were suggested as likely makers.

                                                                                                                                                                                    (I collect all metal vintage HO diesel switchers, and I've picked up some metal freight cars along the way, including an Ulrich hopper, but with flat sides not offset, so no help there..)

                                                                                                                                                                                    I tried ULRICH first on HOseeker, thinking I'd go on to MDC if there was nothing under ULRICH.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I started with the oldest ULRICH catalogs, and worked my way forward.

                                                                                                                                                                                    There is a similar FRISCO hopper is identified in the catalogs from 53 55 and 61.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@                                                                                                                                                                                     yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou                                                                                                                                                                                     ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 8:14:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: was, HOSC&H-SIG, now Searching for Model ID

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Steve, and All! 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Like Ray F W and "curmugeon" I use a sort of "decision tree" when trying to identify a model, i.e. general construction; if hard diecast zamac metal, than these companies, if diecast lead based metal than these; if embossed thin metal or card, look at these. But it takes a while to get to know the various firms, too, what model making processes they used at various times, which comes with time. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I still use eBay as a tool, too. Entering in Frisco and hopper and see what turns up, both completed sales and current, and may do it for a few weeks, as patience comes in handy. HO Seeker has grown tremendously over the past few years for older vintage models; Tony Cook's website is good for newer, but out of production r-t-r plastic lines. But one has to have a few good leads to cut down on the search time. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    If you are in a part of the country with frequent train shows, there is no substitute for being
 able to pick up many different models and get a feel for early Varney and Mantua, for comparing Ulrich's and MDC's work, plus some of the sellers are knowledgible willing to share; years ago, I found one who happened to be a proofreader of the Varney Guide and though having moved from my area, still sends his annual list.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Even if you don't have much in the way of your own "database" of old catalogs, instructions and magazines, having a few old catalogs may give you a hint and a direction to follow. The Varney Guide helped me identify another company's similar card-sided flat car that had me stumped a few years ago as at least three manufacturers had almost identical models. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    And like those before me have said, a most important resource is the knowledge of the many here who are ready and willing to help out and enjoy the challenge. I have found that I learn a lot in the hunt, too, as I work out the problem to be solved. That must have been
 evident in my and Jim H's step by step exchange of a half dozen or so messages this past weekend on what we both believe are likely GARCO FT locomotive castings. But it was those very exchanges with Jim that pretty much settled that almost 15 year old question I could not seem to answer on my own, plus I enjoyed the process.

                                                                                                                                                                                    And the speed that information can be found here is also amazing as when I posted the photos of the "Oak Valley" models and within less than 24 hours, we knew who the Oak Valley's brass hat was. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Speaking of Oak Valley, for the past several weeks I have been trying to track down the manufacturer of the 40' flat car kit that was used to build the Oak Valley car, as it is missing one cast white metal side I am looking to replace. Not one of the more than a dozen Red Ball flat car varieties, not Walthers, nor a shortened AC/LW/YOHP, I'm thinking possibly Sterling (or a Selly copy), but don't have one of those yet.
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    But I'm having fun tracking one of those down and that is part of my enjoyment of Vintage HO. Maybe I'll end up making a list of Sterling kits, too, as I had none until this past winter, now I have the wedge plow, pickle car and a neatly assembled helium car. Who knows what's next!

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10240
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2 - Making it practical?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm being subjective about the improved running qualities.........
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
When  I first got it, it had been sitting for about 15 years and would  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
only crank over for a 1/4 revolution. After the shopping, it ran - 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
very- smoothly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I was a bit  happy with the difference...........
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     On Apr 29, 2009, at 12:02 PM, David Helber wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- Curmudgeon sez:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> The main issue for me always was the axle bearings.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> And probably drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ... I'd get rod lock with them all the time...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the plastic "clips" didn't last very long that held it together.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ohhhh, Ghaddd! It all comes flooding horribly back ...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- Mike sez:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> wipe the ... electrical path with ... electronic contact cleaner/ 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> conditioner,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> include the motor mounting screw ... Also do a very tiny drop of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> light oil
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> on each of the motor shaft bearings ... lube and oil the axles,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> gears,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> and cranks...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> You should see that it now runs almost as well as a new Kato.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks, Mike. I'll certainly do it just as you describe. I hope you  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don't mind if I take the phrase "almost as well as a new Kato" with  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> just a teeeny grain of salt for the moment. If it turns out to be  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> true, I'll come back and apologize and thank you even more profusely.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
...........
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10241
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Shops was: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I go to F&M on Route 10 in Denville
and sometimes up to Kenvil on Rt. 46.  I remember Riches when he had a
store in Denville.  It was not there too many years.  I grew up in
Denville and spent many a night at Riches in Parsippany shooting the breeze.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of My-Yahoo-Groups
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009
2:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Shops was: Re:
[vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



My two
hobby shops in NJ are The Big Little Railroad Shop in Somerville 
and the Model Railroad Shop in Piscataway .
Both very good stores.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April
29, 2009 10:12 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO]
Re: Aerotrain
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                              
Anyone ever go to MRSD (Model Railroad Supply Depot) in Red Bank, NJ ?
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: erieberk

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April
29, 2009 7:03 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re:
Aerotrain
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jay, It occurred to me that we may have crossed
paths at some time. I also used to visit Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, both in the
old store and then in the newly (then) remodelled store. Do you remember Rich's
Hobbytown in Parsippany -- right off Rt. 46? He later opened another store in
 Oakland (NJ, for those
wondering if I meant CA). Back then, there were a lot of hobby shops around.
Now you have to travel some to get to one. I guess you now go to Ray
Threllfall's Model Railway Post Office Supply in
 Greenwood Lake ?
I believe I saw where he was thinking of retiring, great guy. Best, Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John H., Yes, three grins from me, and probably a fourth as those black
grease pencil discount price markings look just like the ones made by
"Joe" at Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, NJ in the 1960's, the go-to spot for
model railroading supplies in suburban Northern NJ back then! It was not too
difficult to convince my dad to take a 14 mile drive over there a couple of
times a month, even if it was only for a headlight casting and decal! W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Here are two photos of the Aerotrain boxes just for grins
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10242
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
 I'm not a chemist. I'm not talking about "tarnishing slightly". I'm 
talking about when it gets a heavy sand paper type finish. While you might 
be right about the dust also being a fire hazard this heavy sandy material 
is not a magnesium salt that is healthy for you if inhaled.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
Breath it in if you want. I have been warned not to. Remember it is not 
magnesium in it's purist form.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:42 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Cast 
  aluminum cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/29/2009 10:47:06 AM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    One thing to remember about Sampson passenger 
    cars is that the mixture the body is made from gets a "coating" that people 
    try to take off with a wire brush (by hand or on a drill).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        Be very careful as the dust 
    is toxic. If I remember right it is the magnesium in the bodies alloy 
    mixture.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ ------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    "It tarnishes slightly when exposed to air...magnesium is protected by a 
  thin layer of oxide which is fairly impermeable and hard to remove.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    "The magnesium ion is necessary for all life...so magnesium salts (e.g., 
  epson salts) are an additive for foods, fertilizers. ..and culture 
  media.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    "Magnesium metal and alloys are highly flammable in their pure form...as 
  a powder.... Magnesium powder is an explosive hazard."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Interesting material.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Big 
  savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops!                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10243
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: The American Beauty Lines Listing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    HI Ray and All, I have added this file.  I
started to add colors, but was not sure of some.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009
10:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: The
American Beauty Lines Listing
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck and All, Listed
here are the American Beauty Lines 65' Shorty Passenger Cars. All of these
Series came in eight different car styles only, all the same cars in each
Series except for SP which had a Lounge rather than a
 Pullman . These series consisted of Baggage,
Mail-Baggage, Combination, Day Coach, Day-Nite Coach, Diner,
 Pullman (or Lounge, SP) and Observation.
Starting with the earliest production, they are:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Pennsylvania R.R. Series -- Cataloged as "PE-#S" Series (PE-1S, etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 New York 
Central Series -- Cataloged as "NC-#S" Series (NC-1S, etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Later (Last) Production -- Note NONE of these late production cars included
trucks, including the previous 85' late production kits;
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Pennsylvania Broadway Limited - Cataloged as "PBS" Series (PBS-1, etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 Pennsylvania
 Florida Cars - Cataloged as "PFS"
Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 Pennsylvania 
Congressional - Cataloged as "PCS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 Baltimore and
 Ohio - Cataloged as "BOS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 Chesapeake and Ohio 
- Cataloged as " COS " Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Southern Pacific Daylight - Cataloged as "SPS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Great Northern - Cataloged as "GNS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 Texas and
Pacific - Cataloged as "TPS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Notes: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The later production shorty kits could be had packaged as an eight car set,
individully boxed, in a corregated carton.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The 85' DO-IT-YOURSELF Series was cataloged as "X-1," "X-2"
etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The 65' DO-IT-YOURSELF Series was cataloged as "XS-1,"
"XS-2" etc. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Upon request, decals were supplied in a choice of 24 different road names for
the Do-IT-YOURSELF kits (@ 25 cents per set, extra).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
That about wraps it up. Best, Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10244
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I received the model Monday but am just gettin back today.  Yes, the steps have all been broken off, most unfortunate but not the end of my world. There is evidence that they were there, but they were not filed smooth. In as much as all of the other parts match up with the instruction sheet I feel little reason to doubt it is the original casting from English.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The seller noted in the ad that one of the cover plates was cracked,and of course it is and worse than I would have hoped.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
All things considered I am satisfied with the model, I have only to work out a cover plate and I will be ready to start assembly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Sun, 4/26/09, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Sunday, April 26, 2009, 9:27 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Don,  I doubt very much that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the FA body in the John English kit is a John English
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> casting.  If it is (and that's still possible), it
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> appears that the steps had been broken off and then filed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> smooth the rest of the way even with the body line. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I've never seen John English FA's without cast-on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> steps.  If they weren't broken off and filed, then this
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> casting is probably a Lindsay -- similar to what Hobbytown
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of Boston used (steps had to be added on).  Still a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> nice model, but like Varney F Units, it's nice to have all
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the cast-on steps if you're collecting it as a John English
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> piece.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10245
						From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come across more of them with the steps either removed or broken off more often than any other vintage die cast models. I was told by someone that this is because it was done in an effort to make the locos capable of running on smaller radius turns. I have not ever had a problem with any of these units going around my layout, but I know that when I read about layouts of the past... they sometimes incorporated turns with as small as a twelve inch radius. Hey... That's just what I heard / read. The Hobbyline version of this particular loco, which was plastic... had separate steps. Maybe that means something. The Lionel version of it, afterwards, also plastic... had the steps once again cast on.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Anyway, I looked through my box of English / Hobbyline parts. I do not have any extra truck bottom cover plates to offer you for the original die cast trucks. I did, however... find one of the plastic ones for the Hobbyline plastic version. The basic dimensions are the same, with a little bit of file work, and two holes drilled into it, it would make a great substitute... either temporary or permanent. If you're interested, contact me outside the group... and it's yours. Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come across them with the steps either removed or broken off more 
                                                                                                                                                                                    







                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10246
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Funny.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
All those years messing around with H0 stuff, and I didn't realize we even HAD 12" curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Recently found a circle of the stuff in our old bits, less two sections of a full circle, I think.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
MAN, is that TIGHT!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come across more of them with the steps either removed or broken off more often than any other vintage die cast models. I was told by someone that this is because it was done in an effort to make the locos capable of running on smaller radius turns. I have not ever had a problem with any of these units going around my layout, but I know that when I read about layouts of the past... they sometimes incorporated turns with as small as a twelve inch radius. Hey... That's just what I heard / read. The Hobbyline version of this particular loco, which was plastic... had separate steps. Maybe that means something. The Lionel version of it, afterwards, also plastic... had the steps once again cast on.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Anyway, I looked through my box of English / Hobbyline parts. I do not have any extra truck bottom cover plates to offer you for the original die cast trucks. I did, however... find one of the plastic ones for the Hobbyline plastic version. The basic dimensions are the same, with a little bit of file work, and two holes drilled into it, it would make a great substitute... either temporary or permanent. If you're interested, contact me outside the group... and it's yours. Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come across them with the steps either removed or broken off more
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10247
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for your reply.  I jumped the gun a little on the steps.  Looking at the instruction sheet after I made my last post I found another instruction sideways on page 3. There it says  "To avoid excessive breakage in shipment, nylon ladders, part #510 ( 0.15ea.) are now packed in the parts bag.  These are to be glued to the inside of the body casting with any model cement in the positions shown on the drawing."  So the spots I thought were where the ladders broken off are probably a result of them being removed from the mold. The nylon ladders are inside the parts bag as the instruction stated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank you for your kind offer of the bottom cover.  I have sent a Email to Yardbird trains inquiring about a replacement from them, if not available I will definitely take you up on that.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    When completed it will be a nice model.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Wed, 4/29/09, MRLENGAL2U@... <MRLENGAL2U@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: MRLENGAL2U@... <MRLENGAL2U@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2009, 8:42 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    





                                                                                                                                                                                    I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come across more of them with the steps either removed or broken off more often than any other vintage die cast models. I was told by someone that this is because it was done in an effort to make the locos capable of running on smaller radius turns. I have not ever had a problem with any of these units going around my layout, but I know that when I read about layouts of the past... they sometimes incorporated turns with as small as a twelve inch radius. Hey... That's just what I heard / read. The Hobbyline version of this particular loco, which was plastic... had separate steps. Maybe that means something. The Lionel version of it, afterwards, also plastic... had the steps once again cast on.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Anyway, I looked through my box of English / Hobbyline parts. I do not have any extra truck bottom cover plates to offer you for the original die cast trucks. I did, however... find one of
 the plastic ones for the Hobbyline plastic version. The basic dimensions are the same, with a little bit of file work, and two holes drilled into it, it would make a great substitute... either temporary or permanent. If you're interested, contact me outside the group... and it's yours. Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come across them with the steps either removed or broken off more 
                                                                                                                                                                                    






                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10248
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    curmudgeon wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Funny.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> All those years messing around with H0 stuff, and I didn't realize we even HAD 12" curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Recently found a circle of the stuff in our old bits, less two sections of a full circle, I think.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> MAN, is that TIGHT!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                        Perhaps it's meant for trolleys.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
"What was the greatest thing before sliced bread?"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    -Stephen Wright
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10249
						From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco / 12" radius turns
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I never heard of the nylon steps before... I wonder if they're the same ones that later were used on the Hobbyline version. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I was reading an old model railroad magazine, and there was a reference to HO scale layouts that used less than 22 or 24 inch radius turns. According to the article, when a layout was built using 18 inch turns, or less... which seemed to be becoming more popular toward the end if the 1950's... it was referred to as a ' Bantam ' model railroad. It was not considered an actual HO scale layout, although HO scale equipment was being used. Has anyone ever heard of this before?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10250
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco / 12" radius turns
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Armstrong was a proponent of the "Bantam" term, if I recall.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
18" in H0, 36" in 0 and less was "Bantam".
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > I never heard of the nylon steps before... I wonder if they're the same ones that later were used on the Hobbyline version. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I was reading an old model railroad magazine, and there was a reference to HO scale layouts that used less than 22 or 24 inch radius turns. According to the article, when a layout was built using 18 inch turns, or less... which seemed to be becoming more popular toward the end if the 1950's... it was referred to as a ' Bantam ' model railroad. It was not considered an actual HO scale layout, although HO scale equipment was being used. Has anyone ever heard of this before?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10251
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Does anyone know if there's a connection between the Redball car and this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
one?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/792-391
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 10:20 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hi guys, I just caught this thread..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Would this happen to be the redball car you guys are referring to?? I reall 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
am not sure who makes it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks so much in advance..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sean 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10252
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Fleischmann sold 12" radius and Atlas sold 15".
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I actually have 12" radius on my layout on the traction line.  40' freight 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
cars and 4 axel switchers will run on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 11:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Funny.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> All those years messing around with H0 stuff, and I didn't realize we even 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> HAD 12" curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Recently found a circle of the stuff in our old bits, less two sections of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> a full circle, I think.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> MAN, is that TIGHT!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10253
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    We have it right here.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 10:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Any way of resurrecting the group? It sounds like it could still be of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
value.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:59 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Subject: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10254
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The best way is take a couple good photographs and place them right here. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Someone will know what they are.  (I can think of only one model that hasn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
been conclusively identified, and that's my aluminum and wood e unit.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 4:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I like this group, I value the info I pick up from here. Sometimes I just 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
like to go looking and searching for myself.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
You mention HOseeker ... I've been on the web site a number of times ... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
even supplied instruction sheets for some Varney Ore Cars .... Maybe I'm 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
missing something. How do I do a search? I've got a car that I have no idea 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
who makes it. I wanted to search for a 2 bay Frisco hopper but I don't see 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
any way of doing that. Is there a quick way of searching without hit and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
miss?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Steve 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10255
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Don D.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Do not believe any connection between Red Ball car and Main Line Models Poultry Cars, other than similar prototype and unless Main Line's Johnny Lieberman simple saw a Red Ball car of the early 1940's and thought he could do a more complete model in the 1950's. Early Main Line kits had brass screening, later ones had the mesh sides.  The original Red Ball car had two-dimentional photographic sides which were shown via a link in a previous message by Sean, the upgraded Red Ball model that Sean constructed was built with additional detail, the three-dimentional sides.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
YOHP had acquired Main Line years ago and continues to offer many of their kits along with AC/LW and Silver Streak kits as well.  Both of the Ambroid/Northeastern poultry car kits were also constructed a bit different from from both Red Ball's and Main Lines's versions, too, one a completely different prototype.  Sean did a great job on his updated R.B. model!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Does anyone know if there's a connection between the Redball car and this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> one?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/792-391
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 10:20 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Red Ball Poultry car was Re: Gilbert Gon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi guys, I just caught this thread..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Would this happen to be the redball car you guys are referring to?? I reall 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> am not sure who makes it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks so much in advance..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10256
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco / 12" radius turns
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Stephan L., That "Bantam" reference was just another example of the snobbism rampant in the hobby and hobby press (by some) for a long time, I could find a few more examples as well.  It perhaps still exists among some people today, for example who think that anyone without all resin freight cars and the latest favored brand of the moment DCC/Sound is not a "real scale model Railroader."  Plenty of vintage scale layouts were built with 15" sectional track as that is all folks could fit in the small spaces they had.  In Europe, the space available for layouts is even tighter, so I imaginge that 12" radius or metric measurement equivalent originated based on demand there. It might be fun to work that 12" radius track in a city warehouse or dockside area, a real home for Little Joe and Stubby!!!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, MRLENGAL2U@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I never heard of the nylon steps before... I wonder if they're the same ones that later were used on the Hobbyline version. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I was reading an old model railroad magazine, and there was a reference to HO scale layouts that used less than 22 or 24 inch radius turns. According to the article, when a layout was built using 18 inch turns, or less... which seemed to be becoming more popular toward the end if the 1950's... it was referred to as a ' Bantam ' model railroad. It was not considered an actual HO scale layout, although HO scale equipment was being used. Has anyone ever heard of this before?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10257
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ralph,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
To move the ID forward, I'm going to suggest you car may be a Sampson as a possibility for the following reasons: A) check out this illustration of the Tavern-Observation that shows an end that looks much like your cast end at: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.org/sampson/sampsoncatalog1948pg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
B.) The oxidized color of the rest of the carbody looks a lot like what we have discussed here the past couple of days, the oxidized magnesium alloy as well as the color of my one Sampson sample, though not an observation C.) Sampson had experience with entire cast ends and also made revisions to their models.  The ACF/BUDD "locomotive" cast end was completely revised once, from an "ACF" like appeareance to a "BUDD" like end; their observation ends may have also gone from a one piece casting to the curved strip and cast cap shown in the Sampson instructions provided by Jim H. at HO Seeker.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm sure others can add to or challenge my prelminary conclusions, though, as I am in no way familiar enough with the corrugated side passenger cars to say for sure.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Alpvalsys@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In a message dated 4/24/2009 5:26:33 PM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Would be interested in seeing the bob tail observation you talk about. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> assume this is a sreamlined car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Well, I finally got the digital camera back from the wife and dug out the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> car down in the basement.  I have no idea of the manufacturer.  Heck!  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> can't even remember where I picked the car up, but it was a long time ago.  Any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> help in identifying it would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> First photo shows the left side of the car.  Second is the left side and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> front; note how little detail (that's none) is on the front end casting.  Next 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> is the right side of the car with the rear end removed; you can see the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> wood floor that's inside the car.  Last photo is of the trucks; they're sprung, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> but the springs are missing from one side of one truck.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The pics are in a folder labelled "D&H Ralph's HO."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> **************Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Desktops!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220631276x1201390200/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.double
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> click.net%2Fclk%3B214101948%3B35952020%3Bv)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10258
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ray F W, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I suspect our paths have crossed, especially at MRPO.  During slow afternoons, I have been know to bring some vintage HO gem for show and tell there, too!  For some reason, my dad did not care for Rich's Hobbytowne on RT 46 when I was a kid in my American Flyer days, but a couple of years ago, I found a promotional Rich's Hobbytowne "Tri-O'Rama" Varney reefer in its original Varney Aerotrain box!  Decorated nicely by Varney, it sometimes can be seen with an NYSME boxcar in my Carstens RR Museum Special. BTW, did anyone at the Vintage HO SIG ever compile a list of Varney's promptional cars?  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I do remember Rich's later Pine Brook (ex-Church) and Oakland shops, but not the other one mentioned.  For a while before Ray's MRPO, went to Bob Fisher's Gingerbred Stop in Warren or Mt. Bethel, but that was a 50 mile trip, almost as far as The Model RR Shop in Dunnellen which was too far! I have heard about some of the good shops mentioned by others, but out of my area. W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Jay,  It occurred to me that we may have crossed paths at some time.  I also used to visit Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, both in the old store and then in the newly (then) remodelled store.  Do you remember Rich's Hobbytown in Parsippany -- right off Rt. 46?  He later opened another store in Oakland (NJ, for those wondering if I meant CA).  Back then, there were a lot of hobby shops around.  Now you have to travel some to get to one.  I guess you now go to Ray Threllfall's Model Railway Post Office Supply in Greenwood Lake?  I believe I saw where he was thinking of retiring, great guy.  Best,  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > John H., Yes, three grins from me, and probably a fourth as those black grease pencil discount price markings look just like the ones made by "Joe" at Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, NJ in the 1960's, the go-to spot for model railroading supplies in suburban Northern NJ back then! It was not too difficult to convince my dad to take a 14 mile drive over there a couple of times a month, even if it was only for a headlight casting and decal!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Here are two photos of the Aerotrain boxes just for grins
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10259
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Chester Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                This 
is especially for all you boy / girls from New Jersey. You should have lots of 
information on this company    Chester Industrial Arts 
Co.   North Road   Chester, New Jersey. Other then the 
instructions that come in the sealed box I really don't no that much about the 
company. The plans are also on the HOseeker site. I have no idea what their line 
consisted of except they had full size 85" (HO Scale) fluted streamliners 
and "Shortie" ( Just under 8" in length ) fluted streamliners which I have sent 
pictures of
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                What I 
do know is from building two sealed mint "shortie" kits. The roof and floor 
are wood. The ends are metal plates with 4 screw holes to attach to the roof and 
floor. The sides are stamped metal (what not sure). There are no trucks or 
diaphragms in the kits. (I used sets of Herkimer / OK Streamliner, trucks 
and diaphragms, on my samples).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                When 
assembled and painted they don't look to bad. One thing, at least to me, is that 
the doors and cut out windows on those doors of the RPO  seem larger 
then they should be. It might be just an optical illusion because of being so 
short..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Pictures  1 & 2     Two views of the RPO 
"shortie
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Pictures  3 & 4      Two views of the "shortie" Observation 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Picture    
5            A mint 
sealed box containing an 85' full-size (HO) to show how there were packaged. 
"Shorties" done same way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            I would 
appreciate any information, especially the entire passenger car line. about 
Chester. These run nice on 18" radius track, might even run on 15"
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10260
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Chester Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    WOw, when they say "shortie" they really mean it. The 85' models should make very nice cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             This is especially for all you boy / girls from New Jersey. You should have lots of information on this company    Chester Industrial Arts Co.   North Road   Chester, New Jersey. Other then the instructions that come in the sealed box I really don't no that much about the company. The plans are also on the HOseeker site. I have no idea what their line consisted of except they had full size 85" (HO Scale) fluted streamliners and "Shortie" ( Just under 8" in length ) fluted streamliners which I have sent pictures of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             What I do know is from building two sealed mint "shortie" kits. The roof and floor are wood. The ends are metal plates with 4 screw holes to attach to the roof and floor. The sides are stamped metal (what not sure). There are no trucks or diaphragms in the kits. (I used sets of Herkimer / OK Streamliner, trucks and diaphragms, on my samples).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             When assembled and painted they don't look to bad. One thing, at least to me, is that the doors and cut out windows on those doors of the RPO  seem larger then they should be. It might be just an optical illusion because of being so short..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Pictures  1 & 2     Two views of the RPO "shortie
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Pictures  3 & 4      Two views of the "shortie" Observation 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Picture    5            A mint sealed box containing an 85' full-size (HO) to show how there were packaged. "Shorties" done same way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         I would appreciate any information, especially the entire passenger car line. about Chester. These run nice on 18" radius track, might even run on 15"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10261
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Gone
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don D, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 I want to back up fully your remark that this Yahoo vintageHO is today's 
modern version of what the HOSC&H-SIG group use to be. It's (HOSC&H), 
pre internet fast exchange of information,  days are here and gone. There 
is NO need to resurrect it. All the same information plus newly found things are 
constantly discussed here and from a large very knowledgeable group of members. 
I especially like the quick response time when I make an error. Before with a 
newsletter, only 4 times a year, it was a long time before corrections could be 
made 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           The 
HOSC&H-SIG group has been put to bed. Let it rest in peace.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           On a slightly 
different note. I have not given up on that "mystery" wood and brass E unit. 
After all it has ruined my record by not being able to ID. The only other time 
this had happened was about 10 years ago and concerned a set of 4 passenger 
cars. The NMRA HO train museum had posed this to Dave Spangel who in return 
asked me. Nothing was ever found out. Maybe I should "dig out" the pictures of 
it and ask the group  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10262
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Chester Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From the southern part of Morris County.  There are no reviews of them according to Swift's Composit Product Review Index, but there are quite a few seasonal ads in Model Railroader in winter 1952 and late and early 1953, two columns with photo, "Sleek and Gracefull" others say "Mirror Finish"  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
They had eight body kits available in "60 ft Shorts and 85 ft Standards": "Baggage-Dormitory-Chair car, Express-Baggage, Mail car, Mail-Baggage, Rommette, Diner, Chair car, Obs.-Lounge-Tav." 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
They offered similar kits in S Scale and O scale, too! Prices: HO Shorts: $1.95, HO Standards$2.55, 50 cents extra for observations.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Do not know when they began production, will check for pre-1952 ads tonight!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
; --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             This is especially for all you boy / girls from New Jersey. You should have lots of information on this company    Chester Industrial Arts Co.   North Road   Chester, New Jersey. Other then the instructions that come in the sealed box I really don't no that much about the company. The plans are also on the HOseeker site. I have no idea what their line consisted of except they had full size 85" (HO Scale) fluted streamliners and "Shortie" ( Just under 8" in length ) fluted streamliners which I have sent pictures of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             What I do know is from building two sealed mint "shortie" kits. The roof and floor are wood. The ends are metal plates with 4 screw holes to attach to the roof and floor. The sides are stamped metal (what not sure). There are no trucks or diaphragms in the kits. (I used sets of Herkimer / OK Streamliner, trucks and diaphragms, on my samples).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             When assembled and painted they don't look to bad. One thing, at least to me, is that the doors and cut out windows on those doors of the RPO  seem larger then they should be. It might be just an optical illusion because of being so short..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Pictures  1 & 2     Two views of the RPO "shortie
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Pictures  3 & 4      Two views of the "shortie" Observation 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Picture    5            A mint sealed box containing an 85' full-size (HO) to show how there were packaged. "Shorties" done same way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         I would appreciate any information, especially the entire passenger car line. about Chester. These run nice on 18" radius track, might even run on 15"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10263
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Help with parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 
Help with parts

 



                                                                                                                                                                                    I am looking for a few parts for old diecast locomotives. This is all part of my building a Mantua/MDC kitbash of GB&W #145.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    MDC 0-6-0 one piece metal cab. I have the early five-piece cab but it is difficult to disguise the joints and the left side piece has a bit of a bend in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Mantua early Mikado valve gear and rods. Actually I have enough for this one locomotive but am considering doing one more. What I especially need is the early Mantua Mikes valve gear hanger (see orange items in the attachment). These were only used during 1948 – 1950 (maybe part of 51) production. I would like to be able to come up with a way to copy and maybe even improve on these but cannot risk damaging the only set I now have.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Other items I would like to have but am not desperate for include a Mantua Mike cylinder block (probably the same as a Pacific from the same era) and an undamaged Shifter frame. This would be to restore to original a late 1940’s production Shifter that has suffered cancer of the frame. Also would like to find a shifter valve gear if possible for the same locomotive. I know I can probably get a new frame from Yardbird Classic Trains but would kinda like an early production example if possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    If someone out there has a Mantua short tender as used with the Prairie (among others) I would be interested in that too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Then, just as a far-out thought, I could make use of a Varney Aerotrain locomotive windshield.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Please contact me off line for any of the above. Use either this address or through the editor link at gbwhs.org. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     <<...>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10264
						From: Richard Moessner
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Tru-Scale offered their self-gauging roadbed down to 14" radius. That was the unfinished pine roadbed with ties milled as part of the roadbed. There were 2 pairs of little bumps milled on each tie which served as tie plates. You dropped lengths of code 100 rail into each pair of bumps and that gave track already properly gauged.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I used the 14" radius and got a Hobbytown of Boston RS-3 to operate around these curves. I filed away the corners of the gear towers to get enough truck swing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dick Moessner
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Fleischmann sold 12" radius and Atlas sold 15".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I actually have 12" radius on my layout on the traction line.  40' freight 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> cars and 4 axel switchers will run on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10265
						From: Bill Wright
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Red Ball Poultry car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I uploaded a photo of a Palace Poultry Car I have, PPKS 5131. It is not as detailed as the Mainline, Huff & Puff, or Redball photos. Dpes anyone know which kit this was? It is in an album labeled "HO Poultry Car".
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Bill Wright
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10266
						From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO 
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
group.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  File        : /John_H_Ad's_etc/Chester_Ind_02-53.pdf 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Uploaded by : sprinthag <sprinthag@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Description : Chester Ind ad from MR 02-53 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/John_H_Ad%27s_etc/Chester_Ind_02-53.pdf 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
sprinthag <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10267
						From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO 
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
group.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  File        : /John_H_Ad's_etc/CLinic_02-53.pdf 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Uploaded by : sprinthag <sprinthag@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Description : Mr Clinic 02-53 shows min. radii of locomotives 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/John_H_Ad%27s_etc/CLinic_02-53.pdf 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
sprinthag <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10268
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Added Files
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have just added a new file folder titled "John_H_Ad's_etc". I will add old magazine ads as I run across interesting ones.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The first two files are items of current discussion here. One is a Cheater Industrial Arts add showing their line-up of streamlined cars and the other is a MR Clinic from 02-1953 showing a chart of the advertised minimum radius for model railroad locomotives then in product. Way at the bottom of the HO column the English Alco is listed as having a 13" minimum.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10269
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Help with parts [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                       John H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If you contact me off line so that I can send you a return with pictures to make 
sure what you want. I have the tender complete with trucks and no broken 
steps.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Just for the dummy 
at this end a clarification. Are you talking about the Mantua   
 0-4-0   Shifter ? I have a complete one minus motor here 
that is not needed.  (Frame, body, bottom plate, steam chest, 
drivers plus main and side rods. Yours free but for postage. If this 
is what you need the frame is good. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I don't have 
extra first run Mikado hangers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           Let me 
know at jimheck@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  John Hagen 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:52 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Help with parts [1 
  Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I 
  am looking for a few parts for old diecast locomotives. This is all part of my 
  building a Mantua/MDC kitbash of GB&W #145.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    MDC 0-6-0 one piece metal 
  cab. I have the early five-piece cab but it is difficult to 
  disguise the joints and the left side piece has a 
  bit of a bend in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mantua early Mikado valve 
  gear and rods. Actually I have enough for this one locomotive but 
  am considering 
  doing one more. What I especially need is the early 
  Mantua Mikes valve gear hanger (see orange items in the 
  attachment). These were only used during 1948 – 1950 (maybe part of 51) production. I 
  would like to be able to come up with a way to copy and maybe even improve on 
  these but cannot risk damaging the only set I now have.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Other items I would like 
  to have but am not 
  desperate for include a Mantua Mike cylinder block 
  (probably the same as a 
  Pacific from the same era) 
  and an undamaged Shifter frame. This would be to restore to 
  original a late 1940’s production 
  Shifter that has suffered cancer of the 
  frame. Also would like to find a shifter valve gear if possible for the same 
  locomotive. I know I can probably get a 
  new frame from Yardbird Classic Trains but would kinda like an early 
  production example if possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    If someone out there has a 
  Mantua short tender as used with the Prairie (among others) I would be 
  interested in that too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Then, just as a far-out 
  thought, I could make use of a Varney Aerotrain locomotive windshield.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Please contact me off line 
  for any of the above. Use either this address or through the editor link at gbwhs.org. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    John 
  Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay 
  & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & 
  Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    <<...>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10270
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Help with parts [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
Help with parts


 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    John--I might have that Shifter frame--can't go 
looking for it now--so remind me--
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Glenn Joesten
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  John Hagen 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:52 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Help with parts [1 
  Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I 
  am looking for a few parts for old diecast locomotives. This is all part of my 
  building a Mantua/MDC kitbash of GB&W #145.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    MDC 0-6-0 one piece metal 
  cab. I have the early five-piece cab but it is difficult to 
  disguise the joints and the left side piece has a 
  bit of a bend in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mantua early Mikado valve 
  gear and rods. Actually I have enough for this one locomotive but 
  am considering 
  doing one more. What I especially need is the early 
  Mantua Mikes valve gear hanger (see orange items in the 
  attachment). These were only used during 1948 – 1950 (maybe part of 51) production. I 
  would like to be able to come up with a way to copy and maybe even improve on 
  these but cannot risk damaging the only set I now have.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Other items I would like 
  to have but am not 
  desperate for include a Mantua Mike cylinder block 
  (probably the same as a 
  Pacific from the same era) 
  and an undamaged Shifter frame. This would be to restore to 
  original a late 1940’s production 
  Shifter that has suffered cancer of the 
  frame. Also would like to find a shifter valve gear if possible for the same 
  locomotive. I know I can probably get a 
  new frame from Yardbird Classic Trains but would kinda like an early 
  production example if possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    If someone out there has a 
  Mantua short tender as used with the Prairie (among others) I would be 
  interested in that too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Then, just as a far-out 
  thought, I could make use of a Varney Aerotrain locomotive windshield.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Please contact me off line 
  for any of the above. Use either this address or through the editor link at gbwhs.org. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay 
  & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & 
  Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    <<...>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  

                                                                                                                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Checked by AVG - 
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10271
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: what adhesive best ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
I want to ask the group for some advice. Over the years I have run into a 
problem when it comes to gluing clear plastic celluloid material to metal. I am 
not talking about any clear styrene or other plastics like that.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 An 
example.  I am tweaking a early metal Athearn RDC 4 (Thanks Sean N a 
nice piece). Both  metal ends, that are separate parts, have 4 windows 
and a door window cut out. Because of the inside design you have to apply 5 
different pieces and with not a lot of room to work with.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Over the years I have tried a number of things. Super glues of all types. When 
they dry the celluloid can be pushed off easily. Tried many different epoxies. 
While they hold a little better they still do not adhere for long. The only 
thing that seems to work is contact 
cements.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The problems with these are they don't "flow" to easy. They kind of leave globs 
that squeeze out onto the clear window material. Yes when it dries you can get 
most of it off but that's a lot of extra work if you are doing a number separate 
windows like above
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I wish I could get a bottle of adhesive that the US Post Office puts on those 
peel and stick stamps or Pennsylvania puts on you license plate sticker. Add it 
to the unseen edges of the window material and never comes 
off.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Any help with how you do windows using clear plastic celluloid type materials 
appreciated.  Using that liquid window in a bottle out of the 
question.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     .
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Anyone have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10272
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: what adhesive best ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
I use a fine bead of Walthers Goo.  Follow directions and it usually
holds very well.  I have had no failures.  I even use it to repair all
kinds of eye glasses and sunglasses.  A very thin coat on both surfaces
works best.  Let the Goo dry to the touch on both surfaces and press
them together.  I made an insulated holder of two thin pieces of clear
plastic with a contact shoe glued between the plastic pieces and it has
held for over 20 years still applying tension to the contact shoe.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Tip the tube to a position where the Goo begins to flow out of the tube
opening and use a small screw driver to transfer it to places inside
the shells.  Apply a small bead along the edge of the clear plastic. 
When both areas of Goo feel dry, press them together.  Practice on some
scrap first but it is easy to get it to work well.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
When it is new it flows easily and sticks to everything so use it
sparingly.  I can even glue uniform patches to shirts and they usually
stay for the life of the shirt.  It is a latex or rubber type base and
can be rubbed off when dry on one surface.  Acetone or lacquer thinner
is a quick remover for cleaning fingers and metal.  Lacquer thinner
will etch plastic.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
==================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I want to ask the
group for some advice. Over the years I have run into a problem when it
comes to gluing clear plastic celluloid material to metal. I am not
talking about any clear styrene or other plastics like that.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 An example.  I am
tweaking a early metal Athearn RDC 4 (Thanks Sean N a nice piece). Both
 metal ends, that are separate parts, have 4 windows and a door window
cut out. Because of the inside design you have to apply 5 different
pieces and with not a lot of room to work with.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Over the years I have
tried a number of things. Super glues of all types. When they dry the
celluloid can be pushed off easily. Tried many different epoxies. While
they hold a little better they still do not adhere for long. The only
thing that seems to work is contact
cements.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The problems with
these are they don't "flow" to easy. They kind of leave globs that
squeeze out onto the clear window material. Yes when it dries you can
get most of it off but that's a lot of extra work if you are doing a
number separate windows like above
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I wish I could get a
bottle of adhesive that the US Post Office puts on those peel and stick
stamps or Pennsylvania puts on you license plate sticker. Add it to
the unseen edges of the window material and never comes off.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   Any help with how you
do windows using clear plastic celluloid type materials appreciated. 
Using that liquid window in a bottle out of the question.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Anyone have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10273
						From: Chris B
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: what adhesive best ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, until someone with real experience steps up, I'll pitch an idea that came to mind with your question.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    My credentials on this one are slim, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    1) I have 6 vintage Athearn RDCs with the single geared truck drive and all loose windows; and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    2) I spent 4 years in the 80's working at USPS R&D on the ink and stamp program that developed the pressure sensitive adhesive stamps ( for those that know what a 6 sec mil spec is, I wrote the spec on the adhesive)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Clear silicone or rubber cement, either one might work, but as you say, neither one flows or is tidy.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    But disposable syringes with fine plastic tips are available, and the might permit putting a very fine line bead around the inside surface of the RDC window area.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    And if you can cut a pressure sensitive label into a mask with to the proper size outline to protect both sides of the celluloid, even if you do have a spurt or bleed onto the window area, you might have an easy clean up.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    a possible solution that's worth every penny it cost!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 3:24:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] what adhesive best ?

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I want to ask the group for some advice. Over the years I have run into a problem when it comes to gluing clear plastic celluloid material to metal. I am not talking about any clear styrene or other plastics like that.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 An example.  I am tweaking a early metal Athearn RDC 4 (Thanks Sean N a nice piece). Both  metal ends, that are separate parts, have 4 windows and a door window cut out. Because of the inside design you have to apply 5 different pieces and with not a lot of room to work with.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 Over the years I have tried a number of things. Super glues of all types. When they dry the celluloid can be pushed off easily. Tried many different epoxies. While they hold a little better they still do not adhere for long. The only thing that seems to work is contact cements.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The problems with these are they don't "flow" to easy. They kind of leave globs that squeeze out onto the clear window material. Yes when it dries you can get most of it off but that's a lot of extra work if you are doing a number separate windows like above
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I wish I could get a bottle of adhesive that the US Post Office puts on those peel and stick stamps or Pennsylvania puts on you license plate sticker. Add it to the unseen edges of the window material and never comes off.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                   Any help with how you do windows using clear plastic celluloid type materials appreciated.  Using that liquid window in a bottle out of the question.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     .
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 Anyone have 

                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10274
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: what adhesive best ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Three things I have used:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Clear nail polish
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Testor's Clear Canopy Cement
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Micro Scale Krystal Klear.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Since Celluloid is an acetate material, 
Ambroid  or Duco should work, but only on wood.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:24 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] what adhesive best 
  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  I want to ask the group for some advice. Over the years I have run into a 
  problem when it comes to gluing clear plastic celluloid material to metal. I 
  am not talking about any clear styrene or other plastics like 
  that.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 An 
  example.  I am tweaking a early metal Athearn RDC 4 (Thanks Sean N a 
  nice piece). Both  metal ends, that are separate parts, have 4 
  windows and a door window cut out. Because of the inside design you have to 
  apply 5 different pieces and with not a lot of room to work with.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
  Over the years I have tried a number of things. Super glues of all types. When 
  they dry the celluloid can be pushed off easily. Tried many different epoxies. 
  While they hold a little better they still do not adhere for long. The only 
  thing that seems to work is contact 
  cements.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  The problems with these are they don't "flow" to easy. They kind of leave 
  globs that squeeze out onto the clear window material. Yes when it dries you 
  can get most of it off but that's a lot of extra work if you are doing a 
  number separate windows like above
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  I wish I could get a bottle of adhesive that the US Post Office puts on those 
  peel and stick stamps or Pennsylvania puts on you license plate sticker. Add 
  it to the unseen edges of the window material and never comes 
  off.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  Any help with how you do windows using clear plastic celluloid type materials 
  appreciated.  Using that liquid window in a bottle out of the 
  question.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
  Anyone have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  

                                                                                                                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.12.10/2088 - Release 
  Date: 04/30/09 06:01:00
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10275
						From: Bill DeFoe
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: what adhesive best ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
If you have enough edge space you might try double sided transparent tape.  I use that where possible when dealing with windows as there is absolutely no glue to seep out and mar your window.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
It's time consuming to cut the tape in tiny strips.  Just be sure to leave the paper backing on until you are ready to press the window material in place.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Three things I have used:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Clear nail polish
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Testor's Clear Canopy Cement
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Micro Scale Krystal Klear.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Since Celluloid is an acetate material, Ambroid  or Duco should work, but only on wood.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] what adhesive best ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                     I want to ask the group for some advice. Over the years I have run into a problem when it comes to gluing clear plastic celluloid material to metal. I am not talking about any clear styrene or other plastics like that.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                An example.  I am tweaking a early metal Athearn RDC 4 (Thanks Sean N a nice piece). Both  metal ends, that are separate parts, have 4 windows and a door window cut out. Because of the inside design you have to apply 5 different pieces and with not a lot of room to work with.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                Over the years I have tried a number of things. Super glues of all types. When they dry the celluloid can be pushed off easily. Tried many different epoxies. While they hold a little better they still do not adhere for long. The only thing that seems to work is contact cements.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                 The problems with these are they don't "flow" to easy. They kind of leave globs that squeeze out onto the clear window material. Yes when it dries you can get most of it off but that's a lot of extra work if you are doing a number separate windows like above
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                 I wish I could get a bottle of adhesive that the US Post Office puts on those peel and stick stamps or Pennsylvania puts on you license plate sticker. Add it to the unseen edges of the window material and never comes off.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                  Any help with how you do windows using clear plastic celluloid type materials appreciated.  Using that liquid window in a bottle out of the question.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                Anyone have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.12.10/2088 - Release Date: 04/30/09 06:01:00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10276
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Poultry car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I can't help you with that picture, however the fourth picture, the white car from Toptrain2100, is an Ambroid Kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Also, not that I am particularly concerned, but the upgraded Red Ball poultry car was not built by Sean.  It was built by me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Wright" <wmewrght@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I uploaded a photo of a Palace Poultry Car I have, PPKS 5131. It is not as detailed as the Mainline, Huff & Puff, or Redball photos. Dpes anyone know which kit this was? It is in an album labeled "HO Poultry Car".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Bill Wright
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10277
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: what adhesive best ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    A lot of the old models I pick up appear to have had the windows glued in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with Ambroid, but after a time it gets brittle.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I wonder if Aleene's Tacky Glue would work.  It's pretty amazing stuff. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Almost like white glue but seems to work on a wider variety of materials.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 6:28 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] what adhesive best ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Three things I have used:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Clear nail polish
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Testor's Clear Canopy Cement
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Micro Scale Krystal Klear.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Since Celluloid is an acetate material, Ambroid  or Duco should work, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
only on wood.  gj 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10278
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Actually, the percentage of participation here is rather high for an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
internet group.  I am in groups that have 2000+ members, and only 3 or 4 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
actually participate.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have no problem with esoteric discussions.  If someone isn't interested in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
that particular topic they can just skip over it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The only real disadvantage here over the kind of group you had is that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
tidbits of information are widely scattered, where your quarterly newsletter 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
brought them all together.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:08 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steve, In theory, it wouldn't be a bad idea at all, even if we could get 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> around Dave Spanagel having copyrighted it.  But in practice, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> unfortunately I see major problems in the concept of this, if you mean to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have such a group on line -- although I hope I'm wrong.  Those days, there 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> were no internet groups, so anyone who had any interest in the group and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in collecting got involved by sending in some information about items in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> their collection as they KNEW the other members would be just as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> interested -- and I'm not meaning that most of us here wouldn't be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> interested.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> But those days, MANY more people got involved, some with writing complete 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> articles on a manufacturer, and some just sending in a line or two of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> interest, sometimes only of one item.  These couple of lines may have been 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of some obscure manufacturer (like Sterling, for instance, which W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> bought up), or maybe just a "new" car side number for Globe or Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> metal which was previously unknown to most of us.  With this participation 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and interest, all these different tid-bits that were published quarterly 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> gave us all some idea of direction in which most of the membership was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> only too eager to see more of -- so those who were more active knew what 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to send in next to keep the interests up for the rest of us, as it was an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ongoing thing; the added information served to feed still more information 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> on what was of interest to most of the members.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Here, I have no idea of what the membership is interested in, and only 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> take clues by what happens to be brought up (sometimes only mentioned as a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> passing name in a discussion).  Hoping that there's more interest in a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> topic, since it had been mentioned, I venture to post more on it -- but I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> still don't know what the interests of most of the other members are, on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> here.  We seem to have only a comparatively core few of contributers on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> here (not a criticism), which I fail to understand when I'm sure most of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> our 431 members must have at least something they've collected -- or I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don't think they'd be here (maybe I'm wrong on that?).  Without 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> participation, such as we had in the HOSC&H SIG, knowledge isn't being 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> shared nor is the interest in these items.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> There are innumerable topics I could bring up, just from what I have in my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> collection, but I have no way of knowing if it would be of interest to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> anyone else here, as there's no general feel for what topics motivate 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> anyone else.  Fortunately, Jim H. has been taking the initiative to post 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> what he hopes would be of interest to many, but it seems to be only of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> interest to a few, from lack of feedback I see.  I can understand, that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> not every member had Dallas Modelcraft or Garco in their collections, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I know I'd be interested in whatever any other member may have.  To start 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> up another version of the HOSC&H with a limited amount of participation 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> would probably see it fail, IMHO.  Best,  Ray F W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10279
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Samson obs (was Cast aluminum cars)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 4/30/2009 8:42:30 AM EDT, W Jay W wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm going to suggest you car may be a Sampson as a possibility for the following reasons: A) check out this illustration of the Tavern-Observation that shows an end that looks much like your cast end at: (HOSeeker).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Now that I've been pointed to Samson (a company I didn't know about previously), I have to agree that it's a Samson "shorty."
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    B.) The oxidized color of the rest of the carbody looks a lot like what we have discussed here the past couple of days, the oxidized magnesium alloy as well as the color of my one Sampson sample, though not an observation C.) ...their observation ends may have also gone from a one piece casting to the curved strip and cast cap shown in the Sampson instructions provided by Jim H. at HO Seeker.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The metal surface is definitely oxidized, and the obs end is composed of two pieces that, surprisingly, are still guled together.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The plans on HOSeeker show a full-length car; I can see where a couple of windows were deleted for the shorty version.  What I like is that the windows that are left are prototypically-sized, not shortened.  But the plans provided by Jim don't match reality, at least not completely.  The plans show a vestibule door on the end of the car, but, per prototype, there was no vestibule on the observation car, long or short.  Also, the plans say to drill holes throught the floor to match those in the cast ends; my cast ends have no screw holes, and a previous owner cut notches in the wood floor so screws wouldn't work anyway.  And while the instructions show bolsters, it is noted that they are not inlcuded.  There were none included with the car I have.  :-(
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    And can anyone identify the trucks that I showed in my pics?  One sideframe has become arched over time, but it seems to have little adverse impact on it operating ability.  What surprises me is that, although the trucks have springs, they're not sprung - the equalizers are prevented from moving by the leaf spring casting.  The springs seem to serve the purpose of keeping the sideframe together as there's no other apparent means of keeping the drop equalizer attached to the axles and mainframe.  Oh!  And they're not needle-point axles; the full-diameter axle protrudes through the wheel into the bearing casting.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10280
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Poultry car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Keith - "nvrr49" Sorry for the confusion, yes, you built the Red Ball Stevens poultry car with upgraded open sides and showed us the original photo sides as well and have the page of other vintage models you have constructed. Sean has the Red Ball Stevens car built as the original kit with photo sides.  And Bill W. has the set of four poultry cars in his album, the last white Livesay one being an Ambroid.  I try to connect the names with messages and photos, but not always successful. W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I can't help you with that picture, however the fourth picture, the white car from Toptrain2100, is an Ambroid Kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Also, not that I am particularly concerned, but the upgraded Red Ball poultry car was not built by Sean.  It was built by me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Wright" <wmewrght@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I uploaded a photo of a Palace Poultry Car I have, PPKS 5131. It is not as detailed as the Mainline, Huff & Puff, or Redball photos. Dpes anyone know which kit this was? It is in an album labeled "HO Poultry Car".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Bill Wright
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10281
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Poultry car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Phew..  I was wondering what was so upgraded on mine.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:41:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball Poultry car

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Keith - "nvrr49" Sorry for the confusion, yes, you built the Red Ball Stevens poultry car with upgraded open sides and showed us the original photo sides as well and have the page of other vintage models you have constructed. Sean has the Red Ball Stevens car built as the original kit with photo sides. And Bill W. has the set of four poultry cars in his album, the last white Livesay one being an Ambroid. I try to connect the names with messages and photos, but not always successful. W Jay W. 

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I can't help you with that picture, however the fourth picture, the white car from Toptrain2100, is an Ambroid Kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Also, not that I am particularly concerned, but the upgraded Red Ball poultry car was not built by Sean. It was built
 by me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Bill Wright" <wmewrght@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I uploaded a photo of a Palace Poultry Car I have, PPKS 5131. It is not as detailed as the Mainline, Huff & Puff, or Redball photos. Dpes anyone know which kit this was? It is in an album labeled "HO Poultry Car".
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Bill Wright
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >


                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10282
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Poultry car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    LOL!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Phew..  I was wondering what was so upgraded on mine.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:41:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball Poultry car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Keith - "nvrr49" Sorry for the confusion, yes, you built the Red Ball Stevens poultry car with upgraded open sides and showed us the original photo sides as well and have the page of other vintage models you have constructed. Sean has the Red Ball Stevens car built as the original kit with photo sides. And Bill W. has the set of four poultry cars in his album, the last white Livesay one being an Ambroid. I try to connect the names with messages and photos, but not always successful. W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "nvrr49" <nvrr49@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I can't help you with that picture, however the fourth picture, the white car from Toptrain2100, is an Ambroid Kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Also, not that I am particularly concerned, but the upgraded Red Ball poultry car was not built by Sean. It was built by me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Bill Wright" <wmewrght@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I uploaded a photo of a Palace Poultry Car I have, PPKS 5131. It is not as detailed as the Mainline, Huff & Puff, or Redball photos. Dpes anyone know which kit this was? It is in an album labeled "HO Poultry Car".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Bill Wright
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10283
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Need help with cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I need help identifying some cars. I've looked on HOseeker and not found 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
them. I have uploaded photos into the photos section under Steve's Stuff:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
1. the metal hopper that I had spoken of before, the Frisco SL-SF. This one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
may be Ulrich,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
2. crane - undec made in Austria
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
3. C of G hopper. this one is really light, no metal frame or weights.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
4. Southern Pacific caboose, made in Taiwan
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
5. Union Pacific gondola, also made in Taiwan
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Steve w.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10284
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Need help with cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I've got one of them there black/undec/madeinaustria cranes.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I do believe you are missing the same part I am missing on mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
There is a roof piece that fits over the lifting bracket with the pulleys on the corners.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
There are spots in the back for hinge pins, and a slot in the lifting bracket (down the middle) to guide it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Picked mine up (complete except for the roof deal) in an antique store for three bux.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I need help identifying some cars. I've looked on HOseeker and not found 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> them. I have uploaded photos into the photos section under Steve's Stuff:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1. the metal hopper that I had spoken of before, the Frisco SL-SF. This one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> may be Ulrich,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 2. crane - undec made in Austria
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 3. C of G hopper. this one is really light, no metal frame or weights.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 4. Southern Pacific caboose, made in Taiwan
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 5. Union Pacific gondola, also made in Taiwan
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steve w.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10285
						From: Michael F. Looney
						Date: 4/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: what adhesive best ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     The best stuff you can get for window is 
Formula 560 or better know has Canopy Glue, it go on white but dry clear and it 
can be use for many other things, like holding walls together, and you can use 
it to replace the window that came in the kit, just fill the hole with Canopy 
Glue and it will give you a clear window by itself.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     Mike Looney
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10286
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Need help with cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The CofG hopper is a Varney.  (Go to the photos section, in one of the last 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
albums, zDoin Dellmann's stuff, Varney freight cars)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The crane is PROBABLY a Roco, may have been imported by Lionel.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The UP gondola and the SP caboose could be anybody.  My first thought was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Life-Like (made from Varney dies) but most of those had truck mounted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
couplers and the trucks snapped in, rather than using screws, although early 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
production could  have still used the original parts.  Another possibility 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
is Tyco from the Sara Lee years,  or the ill fated Mantua "Crown" series of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Life-Like actually took the Varney dies for both these cars and had them 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
made offshore.  Other makers took standard US made models and copied them. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The most notorious of these was Bachmann, but they stole mostly Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
designs.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 11:14 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Need help with cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
>I need help identifying some cars. I've looked on HOseeker and not found
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> them. I have uploaded photos into the photos section under Steve's Stuff:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1. the metal hopper that I had spoken of before, the Frisco SL-SF. This 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> one
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> may be Ulrich,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 2. crane - undec made in Austria
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 3. C of G hopper. this one is really light, no metal frame or weights.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 4. Southern Pacific caboose, made in Taiwan
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 5. Union Pacific gondola, also made in Taiwan
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steve w.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10287
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Need help with cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, I figured that there was a cover missing over the pulleys, I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
another one that looks that has the cover. It looks the same as this one, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
except it has "Lionel" on the bottom. When I saw this one, I thought it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
might be a Lionel one, but don't see any markings except the Made in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Austria.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 12:40 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Need help with cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I've got one of them there black/undec/madeinaustria cranes.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I do believe you are missing the same part I am missing on mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> There is a roof piece that fits over the lifting bracket with the pulleys 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> on the corners.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> There are spots in the back for hinge pins, and a slot in the lifting 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> bracket (down the middle) to guide it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Picked mine up (complete except for the roof deal) in an antique store for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> three bux.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I need help identifying some cars. I've looked on HOseeker and not found
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> them. I have uploaded photos into the photos section under Steve's Stuff:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 1. the metal hopper that I had spoken of before, the Frisco SL-SF. This 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> one
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> may be Ulrich,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 2. crane - undec made in Austria
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 3. C of G hopper. this one is really light, no metal frame or weights.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 4. Southern Pacific caboose, made in Taiwan
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 5. Union Pacific gondola, also made in Taiwan
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Steve w.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10288
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Dick,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The first Model Railroader project layout was the Pine Tree Central and used the Tru-Scale milled wood track base. I built my first turnout in 1961 (as an 11-year-old) using the turnout trackbase. In my "collector" mode I have also purchased a couple of loops of Tru-Scale TT track base for code 70 rail.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Anyway, the Pine Tree Central used the Tru-Scale track based in the 14-inch radius on a couple of the sidings. That was in 1952. Once Snap-Trak and other sectional HO track came out there was a slow movement to 18-inch radius minimum. My first layout used 15-inch radius brass-rail snap track and I ran my Penn Line Midget and my GHC C&NW 4-4-2 on it until I went off to college.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I remember how thankful I was that the Athearn passenger cars were short -- nothing else would go around the curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Moessner" <rb_train@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Tru-Scale offered their self-gauging roadbed down to 14" radius. That was the unfinished pine roadbed with ties milled as part of the roadbed. There were 2 pairs of little bumps milled on each tie which served as tie plates. You dropped lengths of code 100 rail into each pair of bumps and that gave track already properly gauged.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I used the 14" radius and got a Hobbytown of Boston RS-3 to operate around these curves. I filed away the corners of the gear towers to get enough truck swing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dick Moessner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10289
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Need help with cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The Varney hoppers I've seen have some sort of weights on the underside, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
this car doesn't, so I wasn't sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Roco is who I thought of for the crane, just that it wasn't labeled
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I don't think the gondola & caboose were from Tyco, nothing that really 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"looks" Tyco. I thought of Crown, but all Crown I've seen has be labeled 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Crown??
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 5:06 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Need help with cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The CofG hopper is a Varney.  (Go to the photos section, in one of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> last
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> albums, zDoin Dellmann's stuff, Varney freight cars)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The crane is PROBABLY a Roco, may have been imported by Lionel.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The UP gondola and the SP caboose could be anybody.  My first thought was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Life-Like (made from Varney dies) but most of those had truck mounted
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> couplers and the trucks snapped in, rather than using screws, although 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> early
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> production could  have still used the original parts.  Another possibility
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> is Tyco from the Sara Lee years,  or the ill fated Mantua "Crown" series 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Life-Like actually took the Varney dies for both these cars and had them
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> made offshore.  Other makers took standard US made models and copied them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The most notorious of these was Bachmann, but they stole mostly Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> designs.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 11:14 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Need help with cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>I need help identifying some cars. I've looked on HOseeker and not found
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> them. I have uploaded photos into the photos section under Steve's Stuff:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 1. the metal hopper that I had spoken of before, the Frisco SL-SF. This
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> one
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> may be Ulrich,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 2. crane - undec made in Austria
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 3. C of G hopper. this one is really light, no metal frame or weights.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 4. Southern Pacific caboose, made in Taiwan
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 5. Union Pacific gondola, also made in Taiwan
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Steve w.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10290
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: High-Ballers Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                The 
pictures are of what I consider a very nice set of metal passenger car kits. 
There were 4 types of cars.  Baggage, Combine, Fast Mail Car and a Deluxe 
coach.  The 4 cars are patterned after passenger cars of the 1860-1890 era. 
The 4 kits I have are mint and in original boxes. High-Ballers Corporation was 
located at  1817 Verdugo Avenue  Burbank California.  The box 
also states they made HO railroad accessories. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Construction is pretty straight 
forward although not a shake the box kit. The assembly plans are the same sheet 
for all 4. The plans are on the HOseeker site, You just put different sides on. 
Everything in  the kits is cast metal except the floor,  which is 
wood. One nice thing about the floor is that it is shaped and pre drilled. The 
roof and car body ends are cast in one with nice detail . You also get a set of 
trucks, many cast detail parts including the end platforms. It even has pre 
shaped truss rods.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       The metal sides are pre painted with 
mine lettered for the Pennsylvania (The sides of each  box show 
drawings of the four cars. Each drawing lettered for a different railroad. 
Pennsylvania,Central Pacific, Boston & Maine and the Chicago,Milwaukee & 
St. Paul. I'm guessing these are the road names the cars came in and some really nice art work on the boxes). While I 
don't intend to build these kits it looks like they would really make up 
into a very sharp set if you are modeling HO from that period. While not totally 
sure I think that company ROBICO sold these cars before or after 
High-Ballers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Picture 
one     top of a box
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Picture 
two     the ends of the 4 boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Picture three   the 
mint kit laid out for viewing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'll be glad to answer any question if I 
can.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10291
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: what adhesive best ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I do use Testor's canopy glue on plastic to plastic, wood or card.  The 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Microscale "Crystal clear" also appears to be the same stuff.  I have even 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
made small windows (automobile windshields etc.) from plain old white glue. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
However, the original poster said he felt in his case the "glazing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
compounds" (quoted description mine) were not an option.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Michael F. Looney" <excalibur5776@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 11:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] what adhesive best ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 The best stuff you can get for window is Formula 560 or better know has 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Canopy Glue, it go on white but dry clear and it can be use for many other 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
things, like holding walls together, and you can use it to replace the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
window that came in the kit, just fill the hole with Canopy Glue and it will 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
give you a clear window by itself.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 Mike Looney 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10292
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Need help with cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    There were a lot of variations in Varney over the years, a lot of them, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
especially ca. 1960 or so, didn't have weights.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The gondola and caboose could be Varney too, from the years after it was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
sold but before it became Life-Like.  The "made in Taiwan" is what's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
throwing me, and the sixe of the mounting bosses for the brake gear on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
gondola look oversize, which is what makes me think it was a Chinese copy of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a Varney rather than one made from the actual Carney dies like a Life-Like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
would have been.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I had mentioned Bachmann as copying Athearn bodies, During the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
:"Fundimensions" years, Lionel made by Roco was also copies of Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
originals, so it wasn't just the Chinese.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Whether it was done legally or "under the table" I don't know.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 6:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Need help with cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The Varney hoppers I've seen have some sort of weights on the underside,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> this car doesn't, so I wasn't sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Roco is who I thought of for the crane, just that it wasn't labeled
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I don't think the gondola & caboose were from Tyco, nothing that really
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "looks" Tyco. I thought of Crown, but all Crown I've seen has be labeled
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Crown??
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steve W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10293
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Need help with cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Right on the C of G! I popped the load out and inside it says "Varney". Duh, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I wonder why I didn't think of taking out the load before.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 5:06 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Need help with cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The CofG hopper is a Varney.  (Go to the photos section, in one of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> last
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> albums, zDoin Dellmann's stuff, Varney freight cars)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The crane is PROBABLY a Roco, may have been imported by Lionel.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The UP gondola and the SP caboose could be anybody.  My first thought was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Life-Like (made from Varney dies) but most of those had truck mounted
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> couplers and the trucks snapped in, rather than using screws, although 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> early
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> production could  have still used the original parts.  Another possibility
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> is Tyco from the Sara Lee years,  or the ill fated Mantua "Crown" series 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Life-Like actually took the Varney dies for both these cars and had them
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> made offshore.  Other makers took standard US made models and copied them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The most notorious of these was Bachmann, but they stole mostly Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> designs.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 11:14 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Need help with cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>I need help identifying some cars. I've looked on HOseeker and not found
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> them. I have uploaded photos into the photos section under Steve's Stuff:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 1. the metal hopper that I had spoken of before, the Frisco SL-SF. This
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> one
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> may be Ulrich,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 2. crane - undec made in Austria
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 3. C of G hopper. this one is really light, no metal frame or weights.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 4. Southern Pacific caboose, made in Taiwan
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 5. Union Pacific gondola, also made in Taiwan
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Steve w.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10294
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Need help with cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    PS on reply. The underside of the load says "1959".
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 10:12 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Need help with cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Right on the C of G! I popped the load out and inside it says "Varney". 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Duh,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I wonder why I didn't think of taking out the load before.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 5:06 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Need help with cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> The CofG hopper is a Varney.  (Go to the photos section, in one of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> last
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> albums, zDoin Dellmann's stuff, Varney freight cars)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> The crane is PROBABLY a Roco, may have been imported by Lionel.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> The UP gondola and the SP caboose could be anybody.  My first thought was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Life-Like (made from Varney dies) but most of those had truck mounted
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> couplers and the trucks snapped in, rather than using screws, although
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> early
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> production could  have still used the original parts.  Another 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> possibility
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> is Tyco from the Sara Lee years,  or the ill fated Mantua "Crown" series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Life-Like actually took the Varney dies for both these cars and had them
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> made offshore.  Other makers took standard US made models and copied 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> The most notorious of these was Bachmann, but they stole mostly Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> designs.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 11:14 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Subject: [vintageHO] Need help with cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>I need help identifying some cars. I've looked on HOseeker and not found
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> them. I have uploaded photos into the photos section under Steve's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Stuff:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> 1. the metal hopper that I had spoken of before, the Frisco SL-SF. This
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> one
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> may be Ulrich,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> 2. crane - undec made in Austria
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> 3. C of G hopper. this one is really light, no metal frame or weights.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> 4. Southern Pacific caboose, made in Taiwan
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> 5. Union Pacific gondola, also made in Taiwan
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Steve w.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10295
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Here's the 85' version of the Samson car from my collection.  Samson is one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
of my favorite lines of passenger cars.  The magnesium alloy is interesting, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
apart from the corrosion that other people have noted, there's also a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
different "feel" to it than to aluminum.  It seems lighter, and almost a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"plastic" feel to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/730965163/pic/1333198599/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 or
                                                                                                                                                                                    
again, on the group page, the "zdon_dellmann's stiff-Samson"  ("Tiny URL" is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
not working this morning for some reason)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
This is actually the same magnesium/alloy that "Mag Wheels" were/are made of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
that we all wanted on our cars but couldn't afford when we were crazy kids.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: <Alpvalsys@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 9:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Cast aluminum cars [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In a message dated 4/24/2009 5:26:33 PM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Would be interested in seeing the bob tail observation you talk about. I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> assume this is a sreamlined car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Well, I finally got the digital camera back from the wife and dug out the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> car down in the basement.  I have no idea of the manufacturer.  Heck!  I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> can't even remember where I picked the car up, but it was a long time ago. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Any
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> help in identifying it would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> First photo shows the left side of the car.  Second is the left side and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> front; note how little detail (that's none) is on the front end casting. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Next
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> is the right side of the car with the rear end removed; you can see the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> wood floor that's inside the car.  Last photo is of the trucks; they're 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> sprung,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> but the springs are missing from one side of one truck.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The pics are in a folder labelled "D&H Ralph's HO."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> **************Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Desktops!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220631276x1201390200/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.double
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> click.net%2Fclk%3B214101948%3B35952020%3Bv)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10296
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Chester Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I've never had a Chester, but somewhere I seem to recall in the dim dusty 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
recesses of my mind reading somewhere that the sides were copper.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Most of the aluminum cars of the 40's (American Beauty, Blue Line, Samson, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Kasiner/Herkimer etc.) made both full length and "shorty" (60')  versions so 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
people could run them on "snap track" curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 9:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Chester Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> WOw, when they say "shortie" they really mean it. The 85' models should 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> make very nice cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>             This is especially for all you boy / girls from New Jersey. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> You should have lots of information on this company    Chester Industrial 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Arts Co.   North Road   Chester, New Jersey. Other then the instructions 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> that come in the sealed box I really don't no that much about the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> company. The plans are also on the HOseeker site. I have no idea what 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> their line consisted of except they had full size 85" (HO Scale) fluted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> streamliners and "Shortie" ( Just under 8" in length ) fluted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> streamliners which I have sent pictures of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>             What I do know is from building two sealed mint "shortie" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> kits. The roof and floor are wood. The ends are metal plates with 4 screw 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> holes to attach to the roof and floor. The sides are stamped metal (what 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> not sure). There are no trucks or diaphragms in the kits. (I used sets of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Herkimer / OK Streamliner, trucks and diaphragms, on my samples).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>             When assembled and painted they don't look to bad. One thing, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> at least to me, is that the doors and cut out windows on those doors of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the RPO  seem larger then they should be. It might be just an optical 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> illusion because of being so short..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>             Pictures  1 & 2     Two views of the RPO "shortie
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>             Pictures  3 & 4      Two views of the "shortie" Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>             Picture    5            A mint sealed box containing an 85' 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> full-size (HO) to show how there were packaged. "Shorties" done same way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>         I would appreciate any information, especially the entire 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> passenger car line. about Chester. These run nice on 18" radius track, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> might even run on 15"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10297
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 5/1/2009 10:20:57 AM EDT, Don wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Here's the 85' version of the Samson car from my collection.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I notice that you copied Samson's description for your obs as a "Diner-Observation."  From looking at various configurations of observation cars, I'd lean more toward Lounge-Observation or even Sleeper-Lounge-Observation.  That diner-type door on the one side is consistent with buffet section for the lounge.  But I could be wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Join ChristianMingle.com® FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area. Start now!                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10298
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 5/1/2009 10:20:57 AM EDT, Don wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    The magnesium alloy is interesting... there's also a different "feel" to it than to aluminum. It seems lighter
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Magnesium IS lighter than aluminum; it's only about 2/3 as heavy as aluminum.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Join ChristianMingle.com® FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area. Start now!                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10299
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ralph and Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
When I pulled my corroded Sampson out last evening, it seemed lighter, but did not get my Railmaster & Kasiner sample kits out to weigh, thought it might have been just my imagination.  Given an assumed higher material cost and the oxidation problems, I wonder what motivated Sampson to make the cars out of magnesium anyway? Perhaps they had a non-model railroad business and were familiar with working with it, or simply thought model rails would like the advantage of pulling lighter trains?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Alpvalsys@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In a message dated 5/1/2009 10:20:57 AM EDT, Don wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The magnesium alloy is interesting... there's also a different "feel" to it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> than to aluminum. It seems lighter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Magnesium IS lighter than aluminum; it's only about 2/3 as heavy as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> aluminum.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ralph
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> **************Join ChristianMingle.com® FREE! Meet Christian Singles in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> your area. Start now! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221673648x1201419171/aol?redir=http://www.christianmingle.com/campaign.html%3Fcat%3Dadbuy%26
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> src%3Dplatforma%26adid%3Dfooter:050109%26newurl%3Dreg_path.html)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10300
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    When I got my first Athearn train set (Christmas 1959), one of my Dad's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
co-workers gave us enough used Tru-scale to do our first 4 x 8 layout.   At 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the time, the fad was to glue the rail down with Goodyear Plio-bond.  We 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
tried it, but it didn't prove satisfactory, so Dad got a Model Hobbies 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"spiker" from Garman's, it fit down over the rails to hold them in gauge (I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don't recall how it handled curves) and had 4 holes that you dropped in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
round headed brass pins, then a handle with four prongs that pushed the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"spikes" in both sides of both rails at the same time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
There's still a little of the Tru-scale "ready track" (rail already spiked, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
roadbed painted with Tru-Scales "liquid ballast") on my layout today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 6:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dick,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The first Model Railroader project layout was the Pine Tree Central and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> used the Tru-Scale milled wood track base. I built my first turnout in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1961 (as an 11-year-old) using the turnout trackbase. In my "collector" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> mode I have also purchased a couple of loops of Tru-Scale TT track base 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> for code 70 rail.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Anyway, the Pine Tree Central used the Tru-Scale track based in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 14-inch radius on a couple of the sidings. That was in 1952. Once 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Snap-Trak and other sectional HO track came out there was a slow movement 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to 18-inch radius minimum. My first layout used 15-inch radius brass-rail 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> snap track and I ran my Penn Line Midget and my GHC C&NW 4-4-2 on it until 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I went off to college.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I remember how thankful I was that the Athearn passenger cars were 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> short -- nothing else would go around the curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10301
						From: Ray Marinaccio
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: High-Ballers Passenger Cars [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm pretty sure that Alexander Scale Models picked up these cars at some point. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have the mail car and it is identical to the one shown.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 An ad in the 1973 Walthers catalog has them listed as "Hi Ball" passenger cars under the Alexander Scale Models name as undecorated kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Fri, 5/1/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] High-Ballers Passenger Cars [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Cc: lennard@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Friday, May 1, 2009, 6:33 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The pictures are of what I consider a very nice set of metal
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> passenger car kits. There were 4 types of cars.  Baggage,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Combine, Fast Mail Car and a Deluxe coach.  The 4 cars are
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> patterned after passenger cars of the 1860-1890 era. The 4
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> kits I have are mint and in original boxes. High-Ballers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Corporation was located at  1817 Verdugo Avenue  Burbank
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> California.  The box also states they made HO railroad
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> accessories. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Construction is pretty straight forward although not a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> shake the box kit. The assembly plans are the same sheet for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> all 4. The plans are on the HOseeker site, You just put
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> different sides on. Everything in  the kits is cast metal
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> except the floor,  which is wood. One nice thing about the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> floor is that it is shaped and pre drilled. The roof and car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> body ends are cast in one with nice detail . You also get a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> set of trucks, many cast detail parts including the end
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> platforms. It even has pre shaped truss rods.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    The metal sides are pre painted with mine lettered for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the Pennsylvania (The sides of each  box show drawings of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the four cars. Each drawing lettered for a different
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> railroad. Pennsylvania,Central Pacific, Boston & Maine
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and the Chicago,Milwaukee & St. Paul. I'm guessing
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> these are the road names the cars came in and some really
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> nice art work on the boxes). While I don't intend to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> build these kits it looks like they would really make up
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> into a very sharp set if you are modeling HO from that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> period. While not totally sure I think that company ROBICO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> sold these cars before or after High-Ballers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Picture one     top of a box
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Picture two     the ends of the 4 boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Picture three   the mint kit laid out for viewing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I'll be glad to answer any question if I can.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                      Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10302
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: High-Ballers Passenger Cars [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                    These eventually became Model Engineering Works items, which ca. late 1960's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
became Alexander.  The attached picture (please forgive the quality, by 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
combination scanner printer won't let me scan until I buy some more ink, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
even though I don't want to print {I use the HP for actual printing}.  #*@! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Epson!) is from the 1970 Walthers' catalog.  At some time, "High Ballres" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
was changed to "High Ball", probably due to trade mark issues.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Cc: <lennard@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 8:33 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] High-Ballers Passenger Cars [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
            The pictures are of what I consider a very nice set of metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
passenger car kits. There were 4 types of cars.  Baggage, Combine, Fast Mail 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Car and a Deluxe coach.  The 4 cars are patterned after passenger cars of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the 1860-1890 era. The 4 kits I have are mint and in original boxes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
High-Ballers Corporation was located at  1817 Verdugo Avenue  Burbank 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
California.  The box also states they made HO railroad accessories.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Construction is pretty straight forward although not a shake the box 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
kit. The assembly plans are the same sheet for all 4. The plans are on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
HOseeker site, You just put different sides on. Everything in  the kits is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
cast metal except the floor,  which is wood. One nice thing about the floor 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
is that it is shaped and pre drilled. The roof and car body ends are cast in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
one with nice detail . You also get a set of trucks, many cast detail parts 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
including the end platforms. It even has pre shaped truss rods.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
   The metal sides are pre painted with mine lettered for the Pennsylvania 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(The sides of each  box show drawings of the four cars. Each drawing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
lettered for a different railroad. Pennsylvania,Central Pacific, Boston & 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Maine and the Chicago,Milwaukee & St. Paul. I'm guessing these are the road 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
names the cars came in and some really nice art work on the boxes). While I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don't intend to build these kits it looks like they would really make up 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
into a very sharp set if you are modeling HO from that period. While not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
totally sure I think that company ROBICO sold these cars before or after 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
High-Ballers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      Picture one     top of a box
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      Picture two     the ends of the 4 boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      Picture three   the mint kit laid out for viewing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  I'll be glad to answer any question if I can.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
     Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10303
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: High-Ballers Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I do believe High-Ballers developed these kits.  In the late 1950's they went (after Robico control) to Dick Wheeler's Model Engineering Works (MEW), then MEW's HO line was purchsed in the mid(?) 1960's by Alexander Scale Models (the structure kit people, not to be confused with model RR pioneer E.P. Alexander). Not sure about the High-Baller era, but when offered by MEW and Alexander, the cars could be ordered with either flat Monitor or regular Clerestory roofs, and in six road names, too.  MEW also sold a "Passenger Caboose" (their name) which looks like the flat roof combine with the addition of a nice diecast Central Valley cupola (not a Silver Streak or MDC cupola) near one end, and no road name specified.  MR reviewed the coach in the 11/54 issue, RMC 12/54; the mail car in 7/56 by MR, and by RMC in 11/58. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
That High-Ballers box photo you posted shows three of their other diecast Zamac model accessory products worth seeking out, at the left is their turn of the 20th Century operating Hall "banjo" signal, center - operating link & pin couplers and at right, a harp switch stand.  MEW and Alexander carried at least those last two as well, the "Banjo" signal not listed on my late era MEW and Alexander catalog pages.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             The pictures are of what I consider a very nice set of metal passenger car kits. There were 4 types of cars.  Baggage, Combine, Fast Mail Car and a Deluxe coach.  The 4 cars are patterned after passenger cars of the 1860-1890 era. The 4 kits I have are mint and in original boxes. High-Ballers Corporation was located at  1817 Verdugo Avenue  Burbank California.  The box also states they made HO railroad accessories. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Construction is pretty straight forward although not a shake the box kit. The assembly plans are the same sheet for all 4. The plans are on the HOseeker site, You just put different sides on. Everything in  the kits is cast metal except the floor,  which is wood. One nice thing about the floor is that it is shaped and pre drilled. The roof and car body ends are cast in one with nice detail . You also get a set of trucks, many cast detail parts including the end platforms. It even has pre shaped truss rods.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    The metal sides are pre painted with mine lettered for the Pennsylvania (The sides of each  box show drawings of the four cars. Each drawing lettered for a different railroad. Pennsylvania,Central Pacific, Boston & Maine and the Chicago,Milwaukee & St. Paul. I'm guessing these are the road names the cars came in and some really nice art work on the boxes). While I don't intend to build these kits it looks like they would really make up into a very sharp set if you are modeling HO from that period. While not totally sure I think that company ROBICO sold these cars before or after High-Ballers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Picture one     top of a box
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Picture two     the ends of the 4 boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Picture three   the mint kit laid out for viewing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I'll be glad to answer any question if I can.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10304
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Blue Line "Shorties" [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                    I wonder if these are ones sold by "locomotive workshop" in the 70's.  At 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
first I thought those were Varneys, but someone said the window arrangement 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
was wrong last time I posted this.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Cc: <lennard@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 5:10 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Blue Line "Shorties" [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      This will be the end of Blue Line passenger cars. The pictures show 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the tag on the end of the original box and the three car set inside. These 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
are  mint Blue Line"Shorties". They are made of metal and are 4 pieces ( 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
except the Observation which is 3, wrap around body ). They are factory 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
painted. The roof and two sides are locked together by "grooves and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
slots".The bottom is spot welded . The cars came assembled and wrapped in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
brown wax paper so they don't knick as they are packaged tightly in the box.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      There are no trucks. Includes wooden dowels, pieces of wood for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
ends and underside detail.  There were "rubber" diaphragms and a large loop 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
of wire for handrails and such. There are some detail parts for the roofs 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
but the odd part is the plans are for the Blue Line 85' cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      On to other passenger cars later.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10305
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: <Alpvalsys@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 10:10 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Cast aluminum cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
In a message dated 5/1/2009 10:20:57 AM EDT, Don wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Here's the 85' version of the Samson car from my collection.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I notice that you copied Samson's description for your obs as a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Diner-Observation."  From looking at various configurations of observation 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
cars, I'd
                                                                                                                                                                                    
lean more toward Lounge-Observation or even Sleeper-Lounge-Observation. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
That
                                                                                                                                                                                    
diner-type door on the one side is consistent with buffet section for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
lounge.  But I could be wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
*******************************
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I call it a Diner-Observation, but it IS a buffet lounge.  I have an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
original Samson instruction sheet downstairs somewhere (I have to find it) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
that I THINK calls it a "buffet-lounge-observation", and included with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
kit was a post card sized advertising blurb from the NYC showing the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10306
						From: Walter J. Bayer II
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
What kinds of trucks did you use? The coach looks like it has Varney trucks, the diner-Rivarossi trucks, the observation-maybe Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Here's the 85' version of the Samson car from my collection.  Samson is one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of my favorite lines of passenger cars.  The magnesium alloy is interesting, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> apart from the corrosion that other people have noted, there's also a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> different "feel" to it than to aluminum.  It seems lighter, and almost a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "plastic" feel to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/730965163/pic/1333198599/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  or
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> again, on the group page, the "zdon_dellmann's stiff-Samson"  ("Tiny URL" is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> not working this morning for some reason)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> This is actually the same magnesium/alloy that "Mag Wheels" were/are made of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> that we all wanted on our cars but couldn't afford when we were crazy kids.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10307
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Mostly when I get cars there are no trucks so I use whatever I have on hand. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
That particular car is riding on Central Valley T-39's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 12:02 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Cast aluminum cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> What kinds of trucks did you use? The coach looks like it has Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> trucks, the diner-Rivarossi trucks, the observation-maybe Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Here's the 85' version of the Samson car from my collection.  Samson is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> one
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> of my favorite lines of passenger cars.  The magnesium alloy is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> interesting,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> apart from the corrosion that other people have noted, there's also a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> different "feel" to it than to aluminum.  It seems lighter, and almost a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> "plastic" feel to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/730965163/pic/1333198599/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>  or
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> again, on the group page, the "zdon_dellmann's stiff-Samson"  ("Tiny URL" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> is
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> not working this morning for some reason)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> This is actually the same magnesium/alloy that "Mag Wheels" were/are made 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> that we all wanted on our cars but couldn't afford when we were crazy 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> kids.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10308
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry, I misunderstood the question.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The coach IS Varneys, just like the ones on the celluloid cars I built for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
you, the Diner is plastic Lilliput/Con cor trucks, and, as I said, the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Observation is Central Valleys.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Walter J. Bayer II" <bayerw@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 12:02 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Cast aluminum cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> What kinds of trucks did you use? The coach looks like it has Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> trucks, the diner-Rivarossi trucks, the observation-maybe Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Here's the 85' version of the Samson car from my collection.  Samson is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> one
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> of my favorite lines of passenger cars.  The magnesium alloy is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> interesting,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> apart from the corrosion that other people have noted, there's also a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> different "feel" to it than to aluminum.  It seems lighter, and almost a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> "plastic" feel to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/730965163/pic/1333198599/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>  or
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> again, on the group page, the "zdon_dellmann's stiff-Samson"  ("Tiny URL" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> is
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> not working this morning for some reason)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> This is actually the same magnesium/alloy that "Mag Wheels" were/are made 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> that we all wanted on our cars but couldn't afford when we were crazy 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> kids.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10309
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Blue Line "Shorties" [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don D,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               The picture 
you sent is fine. Better then some of mine. These passenger cars you show are 
exactly the same as what my Blue Line cars are (to me).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          I am always amazed 
by the "traveling " some of these HO products do. I lack the resources 
(catalogs, etc.) to follow most of these.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 12:50 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Blue Line 
  "Shorties" [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I wonder if these are ones sold by "locomotive workshop" in the 70's. At 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    first I thought those were Varneys, but someone said the window 
  arrangement 
                                                                                                                                                                                    was wrong last time I posted this.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don 
  Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: 
  <lennard@etex. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
  Wednesday, April 29, 2009 5:10 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Blue Line "Shorties" 
  [2 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                    This will be the end of Blue Line passenger cars. The 
  pictures show 
                                                                                                                                                                                    the tag on the end of the original box and the three car set 
  inside. These 
                                                                                                                                                                                    are mint Blue Line"Shorties" . They are made of metal 
  and are 4 pieces ( 
                                                                                                                                                                                    except the Observation which is 3, wrap around body ). 
  They are factory 
                                                                                                                                                                                    painted. The roof and two sides are locked together by 
  "grooves and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    slots".The bottom is spot welded . The cars came assembled 
  and wrapped in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    brown wax paper so they don't knick as they are packaged 
  tightly in the box.

                                                                                                                                                                                    There are no trucks. Includes wooden dowels, pieces 
  of wood for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    ends and underside detail. There were "rubber" diaphragms 
  and a large loop 
                                                                                                                                                                                    of wire for handrails and such. There are some detail 
  parts for the roofs 
                                                                                                                                                                                    but the odd part is the plans are for the Blue Line 
  85' cars.

                                                                                                                                                                                    On to other passenger cars later.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10310
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    You may have something there, Don.  The "bulletin" type of publication on the HOSC&H SIG did bring it all together, whereas here the facts are often scattered.  The Files section here does help organize things though.  What I was getting at though, was that the subjects started by the core few (on HOSC&H) usually brought many other occasional contributors out of the woodwork, writing in what they had in their collections on these same subjects and adding what were sometimes key bits of information on a manufacturer that none of the rest of us knew about, and at the same time got them involved.  I just wish some of the lurkers here would give some input so that we know what manufacturers would be of most interest here, to them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
As for content, even though there may be quiet spells -- and posting may be hot and cold at times, when it does get busy, it's almost hard to keep up with if you skip a day -- like I just did.  I wasn't able to get up on line yesterday, but I noticed there had to be at least a couple dozen posts.  Just getting caught up now.  Noticed also, that during the past two days, there were probably about 16 or so different posters, about have of them regulars and half occasional posters -- I was just curious and scanned over them quickly to get some idea of the number who are more active.  Those hugh groups you belong to must not have much different activity at all, if only that few people bother getting involved.  I wouldn't care if some lurker here just had a handful of Varney cars; at least it would be a starting point to know where their interest lies, and to be able to continue on that topic knowing I'd be adding to that interest of theirs.  Well, have to plunge into the email pile (LOL).  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Actually, the percentage of participation here is rather high for an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> internet group.  I am in groups that have 2000+ members, and only 3 or 4 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> actually participate.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have no problem with esoteric discussions.  If someone isn't interested in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> that particular topic they can just skip over it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The only real disadvantage here over the kind of group you had is that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> tidbits of information are widely scattered, where your quarterly newsletter 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> brought them all together.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:08 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Steve, In theory, it wouldn't be a bad idea at all, even if we could get 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > around Dave Spanagel having copyrighted it.  But in practice, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > unfortunately I see major problems in the concept of this, if you mean to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > have such a group on line -- although I hope I'm wrong.  Those days, there 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > were no internet groups, so anyone who had any interest in the group and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > in collecting got involved by sending in some information about items in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > their collection as they KNEW the other members would be just as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > interested -- and I'm not meaning that most of us here wouldn't be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > interested.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > But those days, MANY more people got involved, some with writing complete 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > articles on a manufacturer, and some just sending in a line or two of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > interest, sometimes only of one item.  These couple of lines may have been 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > of some obscure manufacturer (like Sterling, for instance, which W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > bought up), or maybe just a "new" car side number for Globe or Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > metal which was previously unknown to most of us.  With this participation 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > and interest, all these different tid-bits that were published quarterly 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > gave us all some idea of direction in which most of the membership was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > only too eager to see more of -- so those who were more active knew what 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > to send in next to keep the interests up for the rest of us, as it was an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ongoing thing; the added information served to feed still more information 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > on what was of interest to most of the members.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Here, I have no idea of what the membership is interested in, and only 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > take clues by what happens to be brought up (sometimes only mentioned as a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > passing name in a discussion).  Hoping that there's more interest in a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > topic, since it had been mentioned, I venture to post more on it -- but I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > still don't know what the interests of most of the other members are, on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > here.  We seem to have only a comparatively core few of contributers on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > here (not a criticism), which I fail to understand when I'm sure most of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > our 431 members must have at least something they've collected -- or I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > don't think they'd be here (maybe I'm wrong on that?).  Without 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > participation, such as we had in the HOSC&H SIG, knowledge isn't being 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > shared nor is the interest in these items.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > There are innumerable topics I could bring up, just from what I have in my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > collection, but I have no way of knowing if it would be of interest to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > anyone else here, as there's no general feel for what topics motivate 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > anyone else.  Fortunately, Jim H. has been taking the initiative to post 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > what he hopes would be of interest to many, but it seems to be only of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > interest to a few, from lack of feedback I see.  I can understand, that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > not every member had Dallas Modelcraft or Garco in their collections, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I know I'd be interested in whatever any other member may have.  To start 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > up another version of the HOSC&H with a limited amount of participation 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > would probably see it fail, IMHO.  Best,  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10311
						From: Rich L
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: what adhesive best ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    PLIOBOND (in a tube) for metal - it does not "skin over" like Walther GOO does.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Also,  try Woodland Scenics  Hob e Tac - (and it comes with a brush in the bottle cap)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Both are contact cements and work well with almost every material
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Rich L,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Trenton NJ
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=======================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Three things I have used:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Clear nail polish
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Testor's Clear Canopy Cement
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Micro Scale Krystal Klear.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Since Celluloid is an acetate material, Ambroid  or Duco should work, but only on wood.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] what adhesive best ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10312
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Varney Metal Shorty Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                        Don D, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            Varney 
metal passenger cars had been mentioned ,to you at one time, and that they 
thought were the Blue Line "shorties" but you know the window pattern is 
wrong. To aid anyone who would like to compare a 3 car Varney metal set against 
the 3 car Blue Line shorties (and later sellers) I am sending pictures of 
each car from my Varney Union Pacific set.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            The 
first picture is showing the different road 
names and  sets (The dark one is Pennsylvania)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            Pictures 2, 3, and 4 are 
the close-ups of the 3 Varney metal Union Pacific cars. RPO, Coach and 
Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            The last 
picture is one of my mint in the box kits for the Illinois Central 
coach showing the metal body and floor. The plastic ends, other detail parts 
including grabs and trucks (sprung) are in the still sealed 
bags.  Plans for each type of car were provided. They can be viewed on 
HOseeker.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I'm only 
showing the Varney metal passenger cars now to compare. Besides these metal cars 
Varney had many passenger cars that would take a long time for me to show them 
all from my collection. They go from the early wood and embossed cardboard, to 
the wood with celluloid photographed sides, to the full size wood and celluloid 
sets ( 8 car sets painted in NYC, B&O and Pennsylvania colors but no 
roadname),  the shorty version of these wood and celluloid cars 
painted in C&NW colors and on to the Varney ( under Sol Kramer) plastic 
passenger cars that were originally sold last Penn Line.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           You can see I 
would have to take a lot of photos because of so many types and material. I 
might send specific examples of types and materials down the road but 
not all I have.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           Any one 
having the Greenberg Varney Guide can see the listings for them. It is 
interesting to note that some of the few passenger cars shown in the Varney 
Guide are now actually part of my collection. Dave Spanagel and I made a swap . 
Old Varney freight cars for passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10313
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The magnesium of the handsome extruded Sampson cars is almost  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
impossible to keep finished, either as bare metal or as painted.  I  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
have several Samson cars that were specially plated in the '50s solely  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
so that they would hold paint (two cars that I painted c. 1950 already  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
were losing all their paint within about two years), and first noted  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
about 15 years ago, this plating is of itself now self-exfoliating, of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
course taking the paint with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
About ten years ago, in order not to simply let them go to the land  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
fill, I gave away about 25 unbuilt kits with badly corroded bodies to  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a collector.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have one of these Sampson Budd fluted cars right at my elbow as we  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
speak (set out to be finished as an Engineering Track Geometry Car),  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and I have been again thinking how to get the metal to accept paint.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The rough finish can be hardly touched by steel wool.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A Sampson product that I never saw, but always looked for was their  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
handsome version of a "shovel nose" streamlined locomotive motor car  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(like the early Zephyrs, the GM&O Rebels, or the NH Comet) made up of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a Budd-fluted passenger car body married to a plug-on cast metal nose  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and a power truck.  Their number was HL-15.  The nose seems to a  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
directly copy of the noses of the ACF motor cars produced in the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
forties for the Susquehanna, Illinois Central and Missouri Pacific  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
RRs.  I never saw one of these models, except a photo in their  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
literature, and have no idea today whether or not it was actually  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
marketed.  According to its literature it apparently had a Pittman  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
power truck powered by a DC-71 motor (pretty powerful).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The Sampson glossy photo literature is even today quite handsome, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
shows to considerable advantage how very nice these models could be  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
when "newly minted".
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10314
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Denny,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       While I don't have that Sampson 
"Zephyr" type engine I can verify at least one was made. I have actual pictures 
of one that somebody owned but didn't know what it was. I told him but 
never got a reply on anything about the power truck and drive that I 
ask.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     According to Lenahan's locomotive Lexicon 
there were two styles made a year apart. I think it was just different nose 
pieces.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 4:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Cast aluminum 
  cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    The magnesium of the handsome extruded Sampson cars is almost 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    impossible to keep finished, either as bare metal or as painted. I 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    have several Samson cars that were specially plated in the '50s solely 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    so that they would hold paint (two cars that I painted c. 1950 already 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    were losing all their paint within about two years), and first noted 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    about 15 years ago, this plating is of itself now self-exfoliating, of 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    course taking the paint with it.

                                                                                                                                                                                    About ten years ago, in order not 
  to simply let them go to the land 
                                                                                                                                                                                    fill, I gave away about 25 unbuilt kits 
  with badly corroded bodies to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    a collector.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have one of these 
  Sampson Budd fluted cars right at my elbow as we 
                                                                                                                                                                                    speak (set out to be 
  finished as an Engineering Track Geometry Car), 
                                                                                                                                                                                    and I have been again 
  thinking how to get the metal to accept paint. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    The rough finish can be 
  hardly touched by steel wool.

                                                                                                                                                                                    A Sampson product that I never saw, but 
  always looked for was their 
                                                                                                                                                                                    handsome version of a "shovel nose" 
  streamlined locomotive motor car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    (like the early Zephyrs, the GM&O 
  Rebels, or the NH Comet) made up of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    a Budd-fluted passenger car body 
  married to a plug-on cast metal nose 
                                                                                                                                                                                    and a power truck. Their number was 
  HL-15. The nose seems to a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    directly copy of the noses of the ACF motor 
  cars produced in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    forties for the Susquehanna, Illinois Central and 
  Missouri Pacific 
                                                                                                                                                                                    RRs. I never saw one of these models, except a photo in 
  their 
                                                                                                                                                                                    literature, and have no idea today whether or not it was actually 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    marketed. According to its literature it apparently had a Pittman 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    power truck powered by a DC-71 motor (pretty powerful).

                                                                                                                                                                                    The Sampson 
  glossy photo literature is even today quite handsome, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    shows to 
  considerable advantage how very nice these models could be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    when "newly 
  minted".

                                                                                                                                                                                    Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10315
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: The American Beauty Lines Listing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck,  Many thanks again for drawing up and posting the American Beauty Lines spread-sheet to the files for me.  I'll fill in the rest of the colors you've started.  As I guess you saw, I've been unable to get up on line the past couple days and am playing catch-up.  Please don't think I'm trying to ignore you either on the scanning instructions -- I just haven't had much time for the 'puter lately, except for a blurb here and there -- and this listing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Looks like you must have missed my 2nd post on this A.B. listing (I posted 3 messages for this list), as you missed a bunch of 85' cars.  Please go back and read my 2nd post covering more 85' cars.  Other pertinent information there too.  I also don't see a 65' Baltimore and Ohio car listing (maybe I missed it?).  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Some of the different Pennsy cars' colors look very similar, although the they all have the same base color (with different striping, etc.).  It would be impossible to describe each PRR train type's colors (not enough room); So, starting with all the 85' cars; 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
We'll call Pennsylvania Railroad PE Series -- Tuscan Red.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Then, the Pennsylvania Broadway Limited PB Series -- Tuscan Red, with Gold.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The PRR Florida Cars PF Series -- Tuscan, with purple, then Silver Fluting.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The PRR Congressional PC Series -- Tuscan Red, with Red, then aluminum fluting.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
New York Central NC Series -- make it DARK Gray, and Light Gray -- I have another series of 85' NYC RR which is Light Gray, with Blue Trim in my collection, but I don't see them in any of my 10 or so A.B. catalogs, so I don't know where to put them (catalog number?) --      I haven't mentioned them because of that, will fill you in on them when I find out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Illinois Central IC Series -- Maroon Brown, with Orange, and Yellow
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chicago & Northwestern CN Series -- Yellow, with Green
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Great Northern GN Series -- Pullman Green, with Omaha Orange
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Union Pacific UP Series -- Armour Yellow and Gray
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Southern Pacific Daylight SP Series -- Red, with Orange
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chesapeake & Ohio CO Series -- Deep Blue, with Yellow, then Aluminum Fluting
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Baltimore & Ohio BO Series -- Deep Blue, with Gray
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Texas & Pacific TP Series -- Deep Blue, with gray & Yellow, then Aluminum Bands.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The Shorty Series of these trains have the same colors as the 85' cars of the same trains. But these first two Shorty trains are a bit different.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
PRR -- PE-#S Series -- Tuscan Red, with Deluxe Gold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
NYC -- NC-#S Series -- Rich Pullman Green, with Armour Yellow
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
PRR Broadway Ltd -- PBS Series -- same as PB Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
PRR FLA Cars PFS Series -- same as PF Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
PRR - Congressional PCS Sreies -- same as PC Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
GN Empire Bldr -- GNS Series -- same as GN Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SP Daylight -- SPS Series -- same as SP Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
C&O -- COS Series -- same as CO Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
B&O -- BOS Series -- same as BO Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
T&P -- TPS series -- same as TP Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
(no Shorty IC, C&NW or UP)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Later,  Ray Wetzel 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> HI Ray and All, I have added this file.  I started to add colors, but was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> not sure of some.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 10:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: The American Beauty Lines Listing
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Chuck and All, Listed here are the American Beauty Lines 65' Shorty
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Passenger Cars. All of these Series came in eight different car styles only,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> all the same cars in each Series except for SP which had a Lounge rather
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> than a Pullman. These series consisted of Baggage, Mail-Baggage,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Combination, Day Coach, Day-Nite Coach, Diner, Pullman (or Lounge, SP) and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Observation. Starting with the earliest production, they are:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Pennsylvania R.R. Series -- Cataloged as "PE-#S" Series (PE-1S, etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> New York Central Series -- Cataloged as "NC-#S" Series (NC-1S, etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Later (Last) Production -- Note NONE of these late production cars included
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> trucks, including the previous 85' late production kits;
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Pennsylvania Broadway Limited - Cataloged as "PBS" Series (PBS-1, etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Pennsylvania Florida Cars - Cataloged as "PFS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Pennsylvania Congressional - Cataloged as "PCS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Baltimore and Ohio - Cataloged as "BOS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chesapeake and Ohio - Cataloged as "COS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Southern Pacific Daylight - Cataloged as "SPS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Great Northern - Cataloged as "GNS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Texas and Pacific - Cataloged as "TPS" Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Notes: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The later production shorty kits could be had packaged as an eight car set,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> individully boxed, in a corregated carton.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The 85' DO-IT-YOURSELF Series was cataloged as "X-1," "X-2" etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The 65' DO-IT-YOURSELF Series was cataloged as "XS-1," "XS-2" etc. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Upon request, decals were supplied in a choice of 24 different road names
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> for the Do-IT-YOURSELF kits (@ 25 cents per set, extra).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> That about wraps it up. Best, Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10316
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 8:27 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains question
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis,  Since I haven't seen the original price for this book mentioned 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (unless I missed it), you may not be aware of what this book sold for when 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> first published.  This book's list price was $45.95 as shown accompanied 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> with its Library of Congress number (in the preface), and of course that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> was in 1991.  A bit steep back then, but then, Dave sent me a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> complimentary issue for my contributions towards it so I didn't need to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> make the expenditure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
$ 29.95 in the 1988 Walther's catalog.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
WHY didn't I buy one then?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10317
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: The American Beauty Lines Listing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    HI Ray, Yes I did see I missed that email.
Will get it over the weekend.  Take care.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 5:11 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: The
American Beauty Lines Listing
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck, Many thanks again for drawing up and posting
the American Beauty Lines spread-sheet to the files for me. I'll fill in the
rest of the colors you've started. As I guess you saw, I've been unable to get
up on line the past couple days and am playing catch-up. Please don't think I'm
trying to ignore you either on the scanning instructions -- I just haven't had
much time for the 'puter lately, except for a blurb here and there -- and this
listing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Looks like you must have missed my 2nd post on this A.B. listing (I posted 3
messages for this list), as you missed a bunch of 85' cars. Please go back and
read my 2nd post covering more 85' cars. Other pertinent information there too.
I also don't see a 65' Baltimore and
 Ohio car listing (maybe
I missed it?). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10318
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Charlie,  Yeah, I guess that's the only way to see if I get a bite!  I'll throw some manufacturer out there and see if there's any interest (or curiousity).  Not to put you on any spot, but can I assume you must have some old stuff?  Anything worth mentioning?  Or, anything you wanted to know, but were afraid to ask (LOL).  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Drop some bait in the water and see who or what bites to get more info, I do not know much of the early HO stuff except what I have read here and in some of my olde Model Railroader. See what happens.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It's News. It's Reviews. It's Interviews. It's Free. What Are You Waiting For?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> www.movieline.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10319
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Shops was: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Agreed, yes, both great model shops.  Been to them both a number of times when I've been in the area, but it's a little out of the way for me, coming from northeastern NJ.  The Model Railroad Shop used to be Howell Day's place.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> My two hobby shops in NJ are The Big Little Railroad Shop in Somerville and the Model Railroad Shop in Piscataway. Both very good stores.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:12 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>              Anyone ever go to MRSD (Model Railroad Supply Depot) in Red Bank, NJ ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:03 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Hi Jay, It occurred to me that we may have crossed paths at some time. I also used to visit Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, both in the old store and then in the newly (then) remodelled store. Do you remember Rich's Hobbytown in Parsippany -- right off Rt. 46? He later opened another store in Oakland (NJ, for those wondering if I meant CA). Back then, there were a lot of hobby shops around. Now you have to travel some to get to one. I guess you now go to Ray Threllfall's Model Railway Post Office Supply in Greenwood Lake? I believe I saw where he was thinking of retiring, great guy. Best, Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     > John H., Yes, three grins from me, and probably a fourth as those black grease pencil discount price markings look just like the ones made by "Joe" at Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, NJ in the 1960's, the go-to spot for model railroading supplies in suburban Northern NJ back then! It was not too difficult to convince my dad to take a 14 mile drive over there a couple of times a month, even if it was only for a headlight casting and decal! W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     > > Here are two photos of the Aerotrain boxes just for grins
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     > > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10320
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Denny Anspach wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have one of these Sampson Budd fluted cars right at my elbow as we  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> speak (set out to be finished as an Engineering Track Geometry Car),  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and I have been again thinking how to get the metal to accept paint.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The rough finish can be hardly touched by steel wool.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                        Would zinc chromate, as used in prepping brass models, work?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A conscience is what hurts when all of your other parts feel
                                                                                                                                                                                    
great.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10321
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: The American Beauty Lines Listing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
For the American Beauty PRR smooth side cars, I have seen unofficial modeler "shorthand" references to the original 85' cars as "six pin-stripe" or "early PRR" and the later as "three pin-stripe" or "later PRR" and that might make it easy for some to visualize the difference between those non-fluted versions. (And if PRR fans, want both!)  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Chuck,  Many thanks again for drawing up and posting the American Beauty Lines spread-sheet to the files for me.  I'll fill in the rest of the colors you've started.  As I guess you saw, I've been unable to get up on line the past couple days and am playing catch-up.  Please don't think I'm trying to ignore you either on the scanning instructions -- I just haven't had much time for the 'puter lately, except for a blurb here and there -- and this listing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Looks like you must have missed my 2nd post on this A.B. listing (I posted 3 messages for this list), as you missed a bunch of 85' cars.  Please go back and read my 2nd post covering more 85' cars.  Other pertinent information there too.  I also don't see a 65' Baltimore and Ohio car listing (maybe I missed it?).  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Some of the different Pennsy cars' colors look very similar, although the they all have the same base color (with different striping, etc.).  It would be impossible to describe each PRR train type's colors (not enough room); So, starting with all the 85' cars; 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> We'll call Pennsylvania Railroad PE Series -- Tuscan Red.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Then, the Pennsylvania Broadway Limited PB Series -- Tuscan Red, with Gold.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The PRR Florida Cars PF Series -- Tuscan, with purple, then Silver Fluting.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The PRR Congressional PC Series -- Tuscan Red, with Red, then aluminum fluting.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> New York Central NC Series -- make it DARK Gray, and Light Gray -- I have another series of 85' NYC RR which is Light Gray, with Blue Trim in my collection, but I don't see them in any of my 10 or so A.B. catalogs, so I don't know where to put them (catalog number?) --      I haven't mentioned them because of that, will fill you in on them when I find out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Illinois Central IC Series -- Maroon Brown, with Orange, and Yellow
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chicago & Northwestern CN Series -- Yellow, with Green
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Great Northern GN Series -- Pullman Green, with Omaha Orange
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Union Pacific UP Series -- Armour Yellow and Gray
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Southern Pacific Daylight SP Series -- Red, with Orange
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chesapeake & Ohio CO Series -- Deep Blue, with Yellow, then Aluminum Fluting
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Baltimore & Ohio BO Series -- Deep Blue, with Gray
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Texas & Pacific TP Series -- Deep Blue, with gray & Yellow, then Aluminum Bands.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The Shorty Series of these trains have the same colors as the 85' cars of the same trains. But these first two Shorty trains are a bit different.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> PRR -- PE-#S Series -- Tuscan Red, with Deluxe Gold
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> NYC -- NC-#S Series -- Rich Pullman Green, with Armour Yellow
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> PRR Broadway Ltd -- PBS Series -- same as PB Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> PRR FLA Cars PFS Series -- same as PF Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> PRR - Congressional PCS Sreies -- same as PC Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN Empire Bldr -- GNS Series -- same as GN Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SP Daylight -- SPS Series -- same as SP Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> C&O -- COS Series -- same as CO Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> B&O -- BOS Series -- same as BO Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> T&P -- TPS series -- same as TP Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (no Shorty IC, C&NW or UP)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Later,  Ray Wetzel 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10322
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve, While we can't see the ends of Chris' Frisco Hopper, (Ulrich has peaked ends, does yours?), if your car otherwise looks like Chris' car, I think we can rule out it's being an Ulrich despite its similarity to one.  From the time Ulrich first introduced this peaked-end offset side Frisco Hopper, until the time the Walthers discontinued it (in 1979), this car was ALWAYS produced in RED.  Chris' Frisco hopper is black, and not the color of an Ulrich Frisco hopper.  We've already ruled out Roundhouse, as they made only triple hoppers, but no twin hoppers such as yours.  There were a number of manufacturers which produced offset side hoppers, but these other ones came bare metal.  Yours is factory painted and lettered?  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> That looks like the car I've got ... what make?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: Chris B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:58 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   [Attachment(s) from Chris B included below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Attached is a pic of one previously on ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10323
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: The American Beauty Lines Listing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi W Jay W, Trying to catch up to your last post (on Chester) to me, starting from the earlier posts on this group a few days ago, on, in this game of catch up.  I may get to it yet tonight (grin).  Just spotted your latest post and thought I'd take a shortcut here so you wouldn't think I'm ignoring you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Makes perfect sense about the stripe numbers.  Maybe Chuck H could use that description.  Do you remember which one the Broadway Limited used?  I think it was the 6-stripe version, if I'm not mistaken.  I believe the multi pin striped GG-1 scheme was called the "5 pin-stripe", or "cat's whiskers" scheme.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> For the American Beauty PRR smooth side cars, I have seen unofficial modeler "shorthand" references to the original 85' cars as "six pin-stripe" or "early PRR" and the later as "three pin-stripe" or "later PRR" and that might make it easy for some to visualize the difference between those non-fluted versions. (And if PRR fans, want both!)  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> - In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Chuck,  Many thanks again for drawing up and posting the American Beauty Lines spread-sheet to the files for me.  I'll fill in the rest of the colors you've started.  As I guess you saw, I've been unable to get up on line the past couple days and am playing catch-up.  Please don't think I'm trying to ignore you either on the scanning instructions -- I just haven't had much time for the 'puter lately, except for a blurb here and there -- and this listing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Looks like you must have missed my 2nd post on this A.B. listing (I posted 3 messages for this list), as you missed a bunch of 85' cars.  Please go back and read my 2nd post covering more 85' cars.  Other pertinent information there too.  I also don't see a 65' Baltimore and Ohio car listing (maybe I missed it?).  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Some of the different Pennsy cars' colors look very similar, although the they all have the same base color (with different striping, etc.).  It would be impossible to describe each PRR train type's colors (not enough room); So, starting with all the 85' cars; 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > We'll call Pennsylvania Railroad PE Series -- Tuscan Red.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Then, the Pennsylvania Broadway Limited PB Series -- Tuscan Red, with Gold.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The PRR Florida Cars PF Series -- Tuscan, with purple, then Silver Fluting.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The PRR Congressional PC Series -- Tuscan Red, with Red, then aluminum fluting.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > New York Central NC Series -- make it DARK Gray, and Light Gray -- I have another series of 85' NYC RR which is Light Gray, with Blue Trim in my collection, but I don't see them in any of my 10 or so A.B. catalogs, so I don't know where to put them (catalog number?) --      I haven't mentioned them because of that, will fill you in on them when I find out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Illinois Central IC Series -- Maroon Brown, with Orange, and Yellow
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Chicago & Northwestern CN Series -- Yellow, with Green
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Great Northern GN Series -- Pullman Green, with Omaha Orange
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Union Pacific UP Series -- Armour Yellow and Gray
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Southern Pacific Daylight SP Series -- Red, with Orange
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Chesapeake & Ohio CO Series -- Deep Blue, with Yellow, then Aluminum Fluting
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Baltimore & Ohio BO Series -- Deep Blue, with Gray
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Texas & Pacific TP Series -- Deep Blue, with gray & Yellow, then Aluminum Bands.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The Shorty Series of these trains have the same colors as the 85' cars of the same trains. But these first two Shorty trains are a bit different.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > PRR -- PE-#S Series -- Tuscan Red, with Deluxe Gold
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > NYC -- NC-#S Series -- Rich Pullman Green, with Armour Yellow
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > PRR Broadway Ltd -- PBS Series -- same as PB Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > PRR FLA Cars PFS Series -- same as PF Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > PRR - Congressional PCS Sreies -- same as PC Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > GN Empire Bldr -- GNS Series -- same as GN Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > SP Daylight -- SPS Series -- same as SP Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > C&O -- COS Series -- same as CO Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > B&O -- BOS Series -- same as BO Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > T&P -- TPS series -- same as TP Series
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > (no Shorty IC, C&NW or UP)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Later,  Ray Wetzel 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10324
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yes, it has peaked ends and it is black. I've posted a picture in the photos 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
under Steve's Stuff - Frisco Hopper. I'd say it was factory painted and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
lettered or someone did a d**n nice job on it!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 7:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO]Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steve, While we can't see the ends of Chris' Frisco Hopper, (Ulrich has 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> peaked ends, does yours?), if your car otherwise looks like Chris' car, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> think we can rule out it's being an Ulrich despite its similarity to one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From the time Ulrich first introduced this peaked-end offset side Frisco 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hopper, until the time the Walthers discontinued it (in 1979), this car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> was ALWAYS produced in RED.  Chris' Frisco hopper is black, and not the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> color of an Ulrich Frisco hopper.  We've already ruled out Roundhouse, as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> they made only triple hoppers, but no twin hoppers such as yours.  There 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> were a number of manufacturers which produced offset side hoppers, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> these other ones came bare metal.  Yours is factory painted and lettered? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> That looks like the car I've got ... what make?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   From: Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:58 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   [Attachment(s) from Chris B included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   Attached is a pic of one previously on ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10325
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Care  of Extruded Magnesium Sampsons, & Sampson Railcar
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Denny A. & All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I wonder of the automobile restoration people might have some projects that would be useful in restoration of our extruded magnesium Sampson models?  The Eastwood firm, familiar to many who work on vintage cars, some with "mag" wheels, might be a good first start to explore.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A Sampson railcar with original ACF type front end casting sold on eBay in the past year in waht appeard to be an estate sale.  That is also where I saw my first Harris & Matucci E unit (before seeing Jim H's great examples here).  The photos there were "protected." 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The original ad seems to be in Model Railroader, April 49, page 90 which also reviewed the original version in their June, 1949 Trade Topics, p. 62 for anyone that has both the issue and a scanner. A photograph of the railcar with revised end appears in the July 1950 MR, and they labeled it "THE SILVER BULLET" with a reduced price of $14.95 powered, $7.95 unpowered.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
As far as how many survived, my guess is "few" simply as anyone, espcially an heir, looking at that corroded carbody, would be tempted to "toss it" even if other railroad items were saved.  A few years back, when I purchsed a large lot for other reasons, I put the two single boxed Railmaster and Kasiner full legnth cars in the collection area, while placing the poor Sampson 85' footer in the "future sale" carton. It has been moved in the last 24 hours to the collection though, as we'll see if restoration with auto wheel products might be posssible. LOL!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The magnesium of the handsome extruded Sampson cars is almost  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> impossible to keep finished, either as bare metal or as painted.  I  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have several Samson cars that were specially plated in the '50s solely  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> so that they would hold paint (two cars that I painted c. 1950 already  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> were losing all their paint within about two years), and first noted  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> about 15 years ago, this plating is of itself now self-exfoliating, of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> course taking the paint with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> About ten years ago, in order not to simply let them go to the land  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> fill, I gave away about 25 unbuilt kits with badly corroded bodies to  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> a collector.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have one of these Sampson Budd fluted cars right at my elbow as we  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> speak (set out to be finished as an Engineering Track Geometry Car),  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and I have been again thinking how to get the metal to accept paint.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The rough finish can be hardly touched by steel wool.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> A Sampson product that I never saw, but always looked for was their  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> handsome version of a "shovel nose" streamlined locomotive motor car  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (like the early Zephyrs, the GM&O Rebels, or the NH Comet) made up of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> a Budd-fluted passenger car body married to a plug-on cast metal nose  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and a power truck.  Their number was HL-15.  The nose seems to a  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> directly copy of the noses of the ACF motor cars produced in the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> forties for the Susquehanna, Illinois Central and Missouri Pacific  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> RRs.  I never saw one of these models, except a photo in their  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> literature, and have no idea today whether or not it was actually  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> marketed.  According to its literature it apparently had a Pittman  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> power truck powered by a DC-71 motor (pretty powerful).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The Sampson glossy photo literature is even today quite handsome, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> shows to considerable advantage how very nice these models could be  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> when "newly minted".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10326
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: adhesives
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                        
To all who replied to my request about adhesives for a special use THANK YOU. 
While I have heard of some of the products there are a few I don't know. I 
will try to get certain ones and try each to find what works best for me. At 
least now I have products to research,.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10327
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly,  Glad to hear this model worked out for you.  I wouldn't have thought that Frank Brua would knowingly try to pass off either a defective model of a John English FA or a John English kit having a replacement (Lindsay) shell without advertising it as such, but then I thought perhaps he just wasn't aware that John English steps "should be" cast on.  But then, none of that really jibed as Frank Brua is one of the best known collectors around, and ought to have known about these J. English steps, or so I thought.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I totally did not expect your John English to have separate steps, to be installed by the modeler, as all of mine (I have 8, a combination of A's and B's) have cast on steps as well as everyone of them I've seen in others' collections.  As Jim H says, "never say never!"  I'd have to guess that yours is probably one of the last production runs, and that those runs did not produce all that many when compared to all the previous runs, as this is not a well known fact.  Just now taking a look at one of my Lindsay's, it appears their steps are metal.  As they're sealed in a plastic parts bag, it's really hard to tell.  They're silver, but could still be silver plastic, and I'm not about to open the bags to find out.  Many thanks for bring this little tid-bit to our attention.  I know there were others here who've only seen the cast on steps too.  I'm glad one of this Group got that model.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks for your reply.  I jumped the gun a little on the steps.  Looking at the instruction sheet after I made my last post I found another instruction sideways on page 3. There it says  "To avoid excessive breakage in shipment, nylon ladders, part #510 ( 0.15ea.) are now packed in the parts bag.  These are to be glued to the inside of the body casting with any model cement in the positions shown on the drawing."  So the spots I thought were where the ladders broken off are probably a result of them being removed from the mold. The nylon ladders are inside the parts bag as the instruction stated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thank you for your kind offer of the bottom cover.  I have sent a Email to Yardbird trains inquiring about a replacement from them, if not available I will definitely take you up on that.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> When completed it will be a nice model.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- On Wed, 4/29/09, MRLENGAL2U@... <MRLENGAL2U@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: MRLENGAL2U@... <MRLENGAL2U@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2009, 8:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come across more of them with the steps either removed or broken off more often than any other vintage die cast models. I was told by someone that this is because it was done in an effort to make the locos capable of running on smaller radius turns. I have not ever had a problem with any of these units going around my layout, but I know that when I read about layouts of the past... they sometimes incorporated turns with as small as a twelve inch radius. Hey... That's just what I heard / read. The Hobbyline version of this particular loco, which was plastic... had separate steps. Maybe that means something. The Lionel version of it, afterwards, also plastic... had the steps once again cast on.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Anyway, I looked through my box of English / Hobbyline parts. I do not have any extra truck bottom cover plates to offer you for the original die cast trucks. I did, however... find one of the plastic ones for the Hobbyline plastic version. The basic dimensions are the same, with a little bit of file work, and two holes drilled into it, it would make a great substitute... either temporary or permanent. If you're interested, contact me outside the group... and it's yours. Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come across them with the steps either removed or broken off more 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> #yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-mkp{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-mkp hr{border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-mkp #hd{color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0px;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-mkp #ads{margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-mkp .ad{padding:0 0;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-mkp .ad a{color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> #yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{font-family:Arial;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> #yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-mlmsg select, #yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c  input, #yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c  textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c  code {font:115% monospace;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-text{font-family:Georgia;}#yiv140095606
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-text p{margin:0 0 1em 0;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c dd.last p a {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-vitnav{padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-vitnav a{padding:0 1px;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{padding-bottom:10px;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-reco {margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-reco #reco-head {font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #reco-category{font-size:77%;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #reco-desc{font-size:77%;}#yiv140095606
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-vital a{text-decoration:none;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-vital a:hover{text-decoration:underline;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -sponsor #ov ul{padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-sponsor #nc{background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-sponsor .ad{padding:8px 0;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{text-decoration:none;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{text-decoration:underline;}#yiv140095606
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{margin:0;font-weight:normal;color:#000000;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c o{font-size:0;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c .MsoNormal{margin:0 0 0 0;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-text tt{font-size:120%;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c .replbq{margin:4;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c dd.last p span {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c dd.last p span.yshortcuts {margin-right:0;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c div.photo-title a, #yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c div.photo-title
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  a:active, #yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c div.photo-title a:hover, #yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c div.photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c div.file-tit
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> le a, #yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c div.file-title a:active, #yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c div.file-title a:hover, #yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c div.file-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-msg p#attach-count {clear:both;padding:15px 0 3px 0;overflow:hidden;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-msg p#attach-count span {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:bold;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-msg p a {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c #ygrp-mlmsg a {color:#1E66AE;}#yiv140095606
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c div.attach-table div div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv140095606 #AOLMsgPart_2_d069af16-6c0e-4b9b-818b-25115fc2993c div.attach-table {width:400px;}
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10328
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I was told the same thing on this group a while back, on missing steps on the cast Varney F-3's, however, the front steps on the side of the cab (by the door) are just about where the front truck swivels, and they do not interfere with the truck's travel.  The steps further back, by the rear (side) door are also postioned about where the truck swivels and the steps at the very rear are out of reach of the rear truck, so none of these steps interfere with either truck's travel.  There was no reason for a modeler to purposely break these steps off (on the Varney units).  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, MRLENGAL2U@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come across more of them with the steps either removed or broken off more often than any other vintage die cast models. I was told by someone that this is because it was done in an effort to make the locos capable of running on smaller radius turns. I have not ever had a problem with any of these units going around my layout, but I know that when I read about layouts of the past... they sometimes incorporated turns with as small as a twelve inch radius. Hey... That's just what I heard / read. The Hobbyline version of this particular loco, which was plastic... had separate steps. Maybe that means something. The Lionel version of it, afterwards, also plastic... had the steps once again cast on.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Anyway, I looked through my box of English / Hobbyline parts. I do not have any extra truck bottom cover plates to offer you for the original die cast trucks. I did, however... find one of the plastic ones for the Hobbyline plastic version. The basic dimensions are the same, with a little bit of file work, and two holes drilled into it, it would make a great substitute... either temporary or permanent. If you're interested, contact me outside the group... and it's yours. Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come across them with the steps either removed or broken off more
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10329
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray F W, Steve W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have not followed this thread close enough, but did we consider Railmaster? Just saw a full page ad last night, they took pride in their neat lettering, the ad said. Will check on roads listed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yes, it has peaked ends and it is black. I've posted a picture in the photos 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> under Steve's Stuff - Frisco Hopper. I'd say it was factory painted and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> lettered or someone did a d**n nice job on it!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 7:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO]Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Steve, While we can't see the ends of Chris' Frisco Hopper, (Ulrich has 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > peaked ends, does yours?), if your car otherwise looks like Chris' car, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > think we can rule out it's being an Ulrich despite its similarity to one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From the time Ulrich first introduced this peaked-end offset side Frisco 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hopper, until the time the Walthers discontinued it (in 1979), this car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > was ALWAYS produced in RED.  Chris' Frisco hopper is black, and not the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > color of an Ulrich Frisco hopper.  We've already ruled out Roundhouse, as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > they made only triple hoppers, but no twin hoppers such as yours.  There 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > were a number of manufacturers which produced offset side hoppers, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > these other ones came bare metal.  Yours is factory painted and lettered? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> That looks like the car I've got ... what make?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>   From: Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>   Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:58 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>   [Attachment(s) from Chris B included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>   Attached is a pic of one previously on ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10330
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    If you have some of the older (1948, 1949) Varney catalogs, you'll see a picture of a Varney Dockside on a circle of track, on a record said in the caption to be 4 1/2" radius.  Some may remember the pic of John Allen advertising for Varney on the back cover of MR or RMC (I don't remember which) with a Dockside on a very small radius.  Could have been on a record again, or maybe a hat (?).  Of course this was no practical layout radius, but went to show what the Dockside was capable of.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Funny.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> All those years messing around with H0 stuff, and I didn't realize we even HAD 12" curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Recently found a circle of the stuff in our old bits, less two sections of a full circle, I think.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> MAN, is that TIGHT!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come across more of them with the steps either removed or broken off more often than any other vintage die cast models. I was told by someone that this is because it was done in an effort to make the locos capable of running on smaller radius turns. I have not ever had a problem with any of these units going around my layout, but I know that when I read about layouts of the past... they sometimes incorporated turns with as small as a twelve inch radius. Hey... That's just what I heard / read. The Hobbyline version of this particular loco, which was plastic... had separate steps. Maybe that means something. The Lionel version of it, afterwards, also plastic... had the steps once again cast on.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Anyway, I looked through my box of English / Hobbyline parts. I do not have any extra truck bottom cover plates to offer you for the original die cast trucks. I did, however... find one of the plastic ones for the Hobbyline plastic version. The basic dimensions are the same, with a little bit of file work, and two holes drilled into it, it would make a great substitute... either temporary or permanent. If you're interested, contact me outside the group... and it's yours. Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come across them with the steps either removed or broken off more
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10331
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Occasionally, I guess with core shift and tolerance stack-up, they could conceivably hit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I actually have a cast Varney F-3 A and B unit here (was a V-2), that someone had very carefully bent all the steps slightly OUT.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Very strange.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I am guessing they were shorting on certain curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > I was told the same thing on this group a while back, on missing steps on the cast Varney F-3's, however, the front steps on the side of the cab (by the door) are just about where the front truck swivels, and they do not interfere with the truck's travel.  The steps further back, by the rear (side) door are also postioned about where the truck swivels and the steps at the very rear are out of reach of the rear truck, so none of these steps interfere with either truck's travel.  There was no reason for a modeler to purposely break these steps off (on the Varney units).  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, MRLENGAL2U@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come across more of them with the steps either removed or broken off more often than any other vintage die cast models. I was told by someone that this is because it was done in an effort to make the locos capable of running on smaller radius turns. I have not ever had a problem with any of these units going around my layout, but I know that when I read about layouts of the past... they sometimes incorporated turns with as small as a twelve inch radius. Hey... That's just what I heard / read. The Hobbyline version of this particular loco, which was plastic... had separate steps. Maybe that means something. The Lionel version of it, afterwards, also plastic... had the steps once again cast on.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Anyway, I looked through my box of English / Hobbyline parts. I do not have any extra truck bottom cover plates to offer you for the original die cast trucks. I did, however... find one of the plastic ones for the Hobbyline plastic version. The basic dimensions are the same, with a little bit of file work, and two holes drilled into it, it would make a great substitute... either temporary or permanent. If you're interested, contact me outside the group... and it's yours. Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come across them with the steps either removed or broken off more
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10332
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jay,  Yes, I did mention to Steve, that while Railmaster did produce a Frisco twin hopper, they did not make an offest side hopper in Frisco.  They made a Frisco panel-side hopper.  I also suggested about the construction in which the sides and ends meet at a beveled 45 o angle on each piece.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray F W, Steve W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have not followed this thread close enough, but did we consider Railmaster? Just saw a full page ad last night, they took pride in their neat lettering, the ad said. Will check on roads listed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Yes, it has peaked ends and it is black. I've posted a picture in the photos 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > under Steve's Stuff - Frisco Hopper. I'd say it was factory painted and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > lettered or someone did a d**n nice job on it!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 7:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO]Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Steve, While we can't see the ends of Chris' Frisco Hopper, (Ulrich has 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > peaked ends, does yours?), if your car otherwise looks like Chris' car, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > think we can rule out it's being an Ulrich despite its similarity to one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > From the time Ulrich first introduced this peaked-end offset side Frisco 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Hopper, until the time the Walthers discontinued it (in 1979), this car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > was ALWAYS produced in RED.  Chris' Frisco hopper is black, and not the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > color of an Ulrich Frisco hopper.  We've already ruled out Roundhouse, as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > they made only triple hoppers, but no twin hoppers such as yours.  There 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > were a number of manufacturers which produced offset side hoppers, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > these other ones came bare metal.  Yours is factory painted and lettered? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> That looks like the car I've got ... what make?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>   From: Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>   Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:58 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>   [Attachment(s) from Chris B included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>   Attached is a pic of one previously on ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10333
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Or the PennLine industrial dismal with the inner track of the circle a silver dollar?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.org/pennline/pennlinehistory/early1.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.org/pennline/pennlinehistory/silver.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > If you have some of the older (1948, 1949) Varney catalogs, you'll see a picture of a Varney Dockside on a circle of track, on a record said in the caption to be 4 1/2" radius.  Some may remember the pic of John Allen advertising for Varney on the back cover of MR or RMC (I don't remember which) with a Dockside on a very small radius.  Could have been on a record again, or maybe a hat (?).  Of course this was no practical layout radius, but went to show what the Dockside was capable of.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Funny.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > All those years messing around with H0 stuff, and I didn't realize we even HAD 12" curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Recently found a circle of the stuff in our old bits, less two sections of a full circle, I think.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > MAN, is that TIGHT!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come across more of them with the steps either removed or broken off more often than any other vintage die cast models. I was told by someone that this is because it was done in an effort to make the locos capable of running on smaller radius turns. I have not ever had a problem with any of these units going around my layout, but I know that when I read about layouts of the past... they sometimes incorporated turns with as small as a twelve inch radius. Hey... That's just what I heard / read. The Hobbyline version of this particular loco, which was plastic... had separate steps. Maybe that means something. The Lionel version of it, afterwards, also plastic... had the steps once again cast on.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Anyway, I looked through my box of English / Hobbyline parts. I do not have any extra truck bottom cover plates to offer you for the original die cast trucks. I did, however... find one of the plastic ones for the Hobbyline plastic version. The basic dimensions are the same, with a little bit of file work, and two holes drilled into it, it would make a great substitute... either temporary or permanent. If you're interested, contact me outside the group... and it's yours. Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come across them with the steps either removed or broken off more
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10334
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    All, In the we'll see your 4-1/2" radius and "we'll raise you" category, Penn Line took it one better and had their Whitcomb running on a circular track, the inside rail being a silver dollar coin! I saw a photo of that recently, but where, maybe Jim W's photos? Besides getting good press, they had it running in a plant window. W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> If you have some of the older (1948, 1949) Varney catalogs, you'll see a picture of a Varney Dockside on a circle of track, on a record said in the caption to be 4 1/2" radius.  Some may remember the pic of John Allen advertising for Varney on the back cover of MR or RMC (I don't remember which) with a Dockside on a very small radius.  Could have been on a record again, or maybe a hat (?).  Of course this was no practical layout radius, but went to show what the Dockside was capable of.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(truncated thread) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10335
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    You mean a Varney V-4.  This is an unusual circumstance that I was not referring to.  There is little swing movement with one of these motors compared to a DC-60 or DC-71 mounted on top of the truck -- which is what I had in mind in truck swiveling.  Someone had to be REAL careful though in bending Varney's zamac.  As I mentioned just recently in another post, I've bent MDC zamac many times, being extremely careful of course, but would never attempt to try it on Varney's metal for fear it would crack off.  Oh, so THAT's how all those missing steps came to be (LOL).  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
.--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Occasionally, I guess with core shift and tolerance stack-up, they could conceivably hit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I actually have a cast Varney F-3 A and B unit here (was a V-2), that someone had very carefully bent all the steps slightly OUT.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Very strange.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I am guessing they were shorting on certain curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I was told the same thing on this group a while back, on missing steps on the cast Varney F-3's, however, the front steps on the side of the cab (by the door) are just about where the front truck swivels, and they do not interfere with the truck's travel.  The steps further back, by the rear (side) door are also postioned about where the truck swivels and the steps at the very rear are out of reach of the rear truck, so none of these steps interfere with either truck's travel.  There was no reason for a modeler to purposely break these steps off (on the Varney units).  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, MRLENGAL2U@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come across more of them with the steps either removed or broken off more often than any other vintage die cast models. I was told by someone that this is because it was done in an effort to make the locos capable of running on smaller radius turns. I have not ever had a problem with any of these units going around my layout, but I know that when I read about layouts of the past... they sometimes incorporated turns with as small as a twelve inch radius. Hey... That's just what I heard / read. The Hobbyline version of this particular loco, which was plastic... had separate steps. Maybe that means something. The Lionel version of it, afterwards, also plastic... had the steps once again cast on.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Anyway, I looked through my box of English / Hobbyline parts. I do not have any extra truck bottom cover plates to offer you for the original die cast trucks. I did, however... find one of the plastic ones for the Hobbyline plastic version. The basic dimensions are the same, with a little bit of file work, and two holes drilled into it, it would make a great substitute... either temporary or permanent. If you're interested, contact me outside the group... and it's yours. Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come across them with the steps either removed or broken off more
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10336
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    OK, Ray, sorry I missed that.  Steve's really looks like an Ulrich to me, I have it and many other listed on a large Ulrich Lotus Spread Sheet I developed several yaers ago with two, sometimes three different stock numbers per car, ( I copied many kit #'s from the various catalog sheets on the backs of car kit instructions), Could they have changed from black to red at one point, possibly when they changed stock numbers.  Unfortunately, I do not have a road number for the Ulrich SL-SF hopper.  W Jay W.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jay,  Yes, I did mention to Steve, that while Railmaster did produce a Frisco twin hopper, they did not make an offest side hopper in Frisco.  They made a Frisco panel-side hopper.  I also suggested about the construction in which the sides and ends meet at a beveled 45 o angle on each piece.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Ray F W, Steve W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I have not followed this thread close enough, but did we consider Railmaster? Just saw a full page ad last night, they took pride in their neat lettering, the ad said. Will check on roads listed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Yes, it has peaked ends and it is black. I've posted a picture in the photos 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > under Steve's Stuff - Frisco Hopper. I'd say it was factory painted and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > lettered or someone did a d**n nice job on it!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 7:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO]Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Steve, While we can't see the ends of Chris' Frisco Hopper, (Ulrich has 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > peaked ends, does yours?), if your car otherwise looks like Chris' car, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > think we can rule out it's being an Ulrich despite its similarity to one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > From the time Ulrich first introduced this peaked-end offset side Frisco 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Hopper, until the time the Walthers discontinued it (in 1979), this car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > was ALWAYS produced in RED.  Chris' Frisco hopper is black, and not the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > color of an Ulrich Frisco hopper.  We've already ruled out Roundhouse, as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > they made only triple hoppers, but no twin hoppers such as yours.  There 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > were a number of manufacturers which produced offset side hoppers, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > these other ones came bare metal.  Yours is factory painted and lettered? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> That looks like the car I've got ... what make?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>   From: Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>   Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:58 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>   [Attachment(s) from Chris B included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>   Attached is a pic of one previously on ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10337
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jay, Sure LOOKS like an Ulrich to me too -- except for the color.  Every Ulrich catalog I have and every Walthers catalog I have up to this model's discontinuance (in 1979, and I have them all) describe this as Red.  Unless there was a production run in there somewhere, where they sprayed them black.  I suppose stranger things have happened.  I really can't think of who else would have made this, but it doesn't match the advertised color.  I have a few in kits, and they're all red, although I know that wouldn't disprove the possibility of a black one.  The peaked end gets me too, as I doubt if there were another manufacturer of this Frisco, that would also cast a peaked end.  We may have to go with Ulrich as the most (and very) probable possibility, but I can't confirm a match.  Yes, I know, Ulrich did use at least two different numbers on some cars.  Is yours in Red or is it in Black?  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> OK, Ray, sorry I missed that.  Steve's really looks like an Ulrich to me, I have it and many other listed on a large Ulrich Lotus Spread Sheet I developed several yaers ago with two, sometimes three different stock numbers per car, ( I copied many kit #'s from the various catalog sheets on the backs of car kit instructions), Could they have changed from black to red at one point, possibly when they changed stock numbers.  Unfortunately, I do not have a road number for the Ulrich SL-SF hopper.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Jay,  Yes, I did mention to Steve, that while Railmaster did produce a Frisco twin hopper, they did not make an offest side hopper in Frisco.  They made a Frisco panel-side hopper.  I also suggested about the construction in which the sides and ends meet at a beveled 45 o angle on each piece.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Ray F W, Steve W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I have not followed this thread close enough, but did we consider Railmaster? Just saw a full page ad last night, they took pride in their neat lettering, the ad said. Will check on roads listed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Yes, it has peaked ends and it is black. I've posted a picture in the photos 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > under Steve's Stuff - Frisco Hopper. I'd say it was factory painted and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > lettered or someone did a d**n nice job on it!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 7:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO]Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Steve, While we can't see the ends of Chris' Frisco Hopper, (Ulrich has 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > peaked ends, does yours?), if your car otherwise looks like Chris' car, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > think we can rule out it's being an Ulrich despite its similarity to one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > From the time Ulrich first introduced this peaked-end offset side Frisco 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Hopper, until the time the Walthers discontinued it (in 1979), this car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > was ALWAYS produced in RED.  Chris' Frisco hopper is black, and not the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > color of an Ulrich Frisco hopper.  We've already ruled out Roundhouse, as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > they made only triple hoppers, but no twin hoppers such as yours.  There 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > were a number of manufacturers which produced offset side hoppers, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > these other ones came bare metal.  Yours is factory painted and lettered? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >> Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >> That looks like the car I've got ... what make?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >> Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>   From: Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>   Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:58 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>   [Attachment(s) from Chris B included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>   Attached is a pic of one previously on ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10338
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, Getting back to the "tarnished slightly" condition, would you know, or have you ever thought of trying some of that liquid metal dip that people use for coins or silverware (I guess copper too) -- and it comes out looking shiney clean in an instant?  I've often wondered if that would work on magnesium (particularly, Sampson), but never got around to trying it myself.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                   I'm not a chemist. I'm not talking about "tarnishing slightly". I'm talking about when it gets a heavy sand paper type finish. While you might be right about the dust also being a fire hazard this heavy sandy material is not a magnesium salt that is healthy for you if inhaled.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          Breath it in if you want. I have been warned not to. Remember it is not magnesium in it's purist form.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: Alpvalsys@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Cast aluminum cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   In a message dated 4/29/2009 10:47:06 AM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     One thing to remember about Sampson passenger cars is that the mixture the body is made from gets a "coating" that people try to take off with a wire brush (by hand or on a drill).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         Be very careful as the dust is toxic. If I remember right it is the magnesium in the bodies alloy mixture.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   "It tarnishes slightly when exposed to air...magnesium is protected by a thin layer of oxide which is fairly impermeable and hard to remove.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   "The magnesium ion is necessary for all life...so magnesium salts (e.g., epson salts) are an additive for foods, fertilizers...and culture media.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   "Magnesium metal and alloys are highly flammable in their pure form...as a powder.... Magnesium powder is an explosive hazard."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Interesting material.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10339
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ray F W, I have to watch my wording better, meant "Have it 'LISTED'" should have added the extra LISTED there and made it clear; no, do not have that Frisco car.  Ulrich did made one intentional change in color with the MStL. gons, so it may be possible.  Perhaps someone else out there may have Ulrich Frisco Hoppers in their rosters they can check for road numbers and color?  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
, --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jay, Sure LOOKS like an Ulrich to me too -- except for the color.  Every Ulrich catalog I have and every Walthers catalog I have up to this model's discontinuance (in 1979, and I have them all) describe this as Red.  Unless there was a production run in there somewhere, where they sprayed them black.  I suppose stranger things have happened.  I really can't think of who else would have made this, but it doesn't match the advertised color.  I have a few in kits, and they're all red, although I know that wouldn't disprove the possibility of a black one.  The peaked end gets me too, as I doubt if there were another manufacturer of this Frisco, that would also cast a peaked end.  We may have to go with Ulrich as the most (and very) probable possibility, but I can't confirm a match.  Yes, I know, Ulrich did use at least two different numbers on some cars.  Is yours in Red or is it in Black?  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > OK, Ray, sorry I missed that.  Steve's really looks like an Ulrich to me, I have it and many other listed on a large Ulrich Lotus Spread Sheet I developed several yaers ago with two, sometimes three different stock numbers per car, ( I copied many kit #'s from the various catalog sheets on the backs of car kit instructions), Could they have changed from black to red at one point, possibly when they changed stock numbers.  Unfortunately, I do not have a road number for the Ulrich SL-SF hopper.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Jay,  Yes, I did mention to Steve, that while Railmaster did produce a Frisco twin hopper, they did not make an offest side hopper in Frisco.  They made a Frisco panel-side hopper.  I also suggested about the construction in which the sides and ends meet at a beveled 45 o angle on each piece.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Ray F W, Steve W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > I have not followed this thread close enough, but did we consider Railmaster? Just saw a full page ad last night, they took pride in their neat lettering, the ad said. Will check on roads listed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Yes, it has peaked ends and it is black. I've posted a picture in the photos 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > under Steve's Stuff - Frisco Hopper. I'd say it was factory painted and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > lettered or someone did a d**n nice job on it!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 7:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO]Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > Steve, While we can't see the ends of Chris' Frisco Hopper, (Ulrich has 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > peaked ends, does yours?), if your car otherwise looks like Chris' car, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > think we can rule out it's being an Ulrich despite its similarity to one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > From the time Ulrich first introduced this peaked-end offset side Frisco 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > Hopper, until the time the Walthers discontinued it (in 1979), this car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > was ALWAYS produced in RED.  Chris' Frisco hopper is black, and not the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > color of an Ulrich Frisco hopper.  We've already ruled out Roundhouse, as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > they made only triple hoppers, but no twin hoppers such as yours.  There 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > were a number of manufacturers which produced offset side hoppers, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > these other ones came bare metal.  Yours is factory painted and lettered? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >> Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >> That looks like the car I've got ... what make?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >> Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >>   From: Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >>   Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:58 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >>   [Attachment(s) from Chris B included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >>   Attached is a pic of one previously on ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10340
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            I think 
you might be talking about Tarnex. It is real good on copper and silverware, the 
bottle says not for brass. Like the commercial dip it in tarnished, 
take it out clean.   Never really thought to try it on the Sampson 
cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          I once ask 
a chemistry teacher what he thought might be a good cleaner. Showed him an 
example of a heavily corroded piece. His answer was "do I know the exact 
composition of the Alloy ? Of course not. End of discussion on that 
point.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 9:27 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Cast aluminum 
  cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, Getting back to the "tarnished slightly" condition, would you know, or 
  have you ever thought of trying some of that liquid metal dip that people use 
  for coins or silverware (I guess copper too) -- and it comes out looking 
  shiney clean in an instant? I've often wondered if that would work on 
  magnesium (particularly, Sampson), but never got around to trying it myself. 
  Ray F W

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'm not a 
  chemist. I'm not talking about "tarnishing slightly". I'm talking about when 
  it gets a heavy sand paper type finish. While you might be right about the 
  dust also being a fire hazard this heavy sandy material is not a magnesium 
  salt that is healthy for you if inhaled.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Breath it in if you 
  want. I have been warned not to. Remember it is not magnesium in it's purist 
  form.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: Alpvalsys@.. . 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: Re: 
  [vintageHO] Re: Cast aluminum cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > In a message dated 4/29/2009 10:47:06 AM EDT, Jim H 
  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > One thing to remember about Sampson passenger cars is that the 
  mixture the body is made from gets a "coating" that people try to take off 
  with a wire brush (by hand or on a drill).
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Be very careful as 
  the dust is toxic. If I remember right it is the magnesium in the bodies alloy 
  mixture.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ------------ ------
                                                                                                                                                                                    > "It tarnishes slightly when 
  exposed to air...magnesium is protected by a thin layer of oxide which is 
  fairly impermeable and hard to remove.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > "The magnesium ion is necessary 
  for all life...so magnesium salts (e.g., epson salts) are an additive for 
  foods, fertilizers. ..and culture media.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > "Magnesium metal and 
  alloys are highly flammable in their pure form...as a powder.... Magnesium 
  powder is an explosive hazard."
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Interesting material.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Big savings on Dell XPS Laptops and Desktops!
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10341
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Shops was: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The Model Railroad Shop is my LHS, and has been for years. The oldest one in the country, as far as anyone knows. They advertised in the first issue of Model Railroader.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The shop in Somerville is really nice as well, but I haven't been there as much because it's a little further for me. I hope both places are around for a long time to come.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Agreed, yes, both great model shops.  Been to them both a number of times when I've been in the area, but it's a little out of the way for me, coming from northeastern NJ.  The Model Railroad Shop used to be Howell Day's place.  Ray 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10342
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    A possibly significant clue as to  why the Sampson motor car may have  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
left the scene early is the fact that although the Sampson bodies were  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
magnesium, the ends were very poor quality Zamac with a very high  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
zincpest attrition rate- a fatal attribute which probably did not  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
spare the cast shaped ends.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I had an orange/maroon 18 car streamliner made up primarily of Sampson  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
cars. Within 10-15 years, the majority of the cast ends started to  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
disintegrate, and in fact did (I still have a baggy full of these  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
failed car ends). I replaced them with new ends made of laminates of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Strathmore paper- a lot of work.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A lister questioned the use of zinc chromate as a primer.  Yes, this  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
was the very first thing tried back in the '50s- when zinc chromate  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
was the real zinc chromate.  It failed sooner than later.  Zinc  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
chromate (at least in a sprayable form) can no longer be purchased in  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
California the last time I attempted to purchase some.  There are some  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"zinc chromate-like clone" spray paints that I have used on some of my  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
brass painting, but my impression is that they are likely to be no  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
better, or even worse as a true metal primer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Other methods for restoration (mag wheel restoration products) are  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
also noted, but it would question their probable efficacy in restoring  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
miniature car sides where some of the divots are practically the same  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
depth as the fluting.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10343
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Chester Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jay, Jim,  You can double that number to 16 kits, if you want to consider their making both smooth-side and corregated-side, which hasn't been mentioned yet.  For a collector wanting to obtain each piece Chester made, he would need to find 16 kits -- and I'm not yet considering doubling that if a collector wants both 85' and shorties.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yes, I know, we're considering body styles here, but since there was no mention of smooth-side cars, I thought I'd let you know these were made also, besides the corregated side cars.  They DO COME with diaphragms -- at least mine do; I just opened one of my sealed kit boxes -- found diaphrams inside; instructions cover their installation also, and illustrate them.  They also come with clear window material.  They do not come with trucks, and couldn't in these boxes unless they were truck kits.  The boxes (85' cars) are exactly 1 foot long x 1 1/4" wide x 1 1/2" high.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Jim H.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From the southern part of Morris County.  There are no reviews of them according to Swift's Composit Product Review Index, but there are quite a few seasonal ads in Model Railroader in winter 1952 and late and early 1953, two columns with photo, "Sleek and Gracefull" others say "Mirror Finish"  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> They had eight body kits available in "60 ft Shorts and 85 ft Standards": "Baggage-Dormitory-Chair car, Express-Baggage, Mail car, Mail-Baggage, Rommette, Diner, Chair car, Obs.-Lounge-Tav." 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> They offered similar kits in S Scale and O scale, too! Prices: HO Shorts: $1.95, HO Standards$2.55, 50 cents extra for observations.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Do not know when they began production, will check for pre-1952 ads tonight!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ; --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >             This is especially for all you boy / girls from New Jersey. You should have lots of information on this company    Chester Industrial Arts Co.   North Road   Chester, New Jersey. Other then the instructions that come in the sealed box I really don't no that much about the company. The plans are also on the HOseeker site. I have no idea what their line consisted of except they had full size 85" (HO Scale) fluted streamliners and "Shortie" ( Just under 8" in length ) fluted streamliners which I have sent pictures of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >             What I do know is from building two sealed mint "shortie" kits. The roof and floor are wood. The ends are metal plates with 4 screw holes to attach to the roof and floor. The sides are stamped metal (what not sure). There are no trucks or diaphragms in the kits. (I used sets of Herkimer / OK Streamliner, trucks and diaphragms, on my samples).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >             When assembled and painted they don't look to bad. One thing, at least to me, is that the doors and cut out windows on those doors of the RPO  seem larger then they should be. It might be just an optical illusion because of being so short..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >             Pictures  1 & 2     Two views of the RPO "shortie
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >             Pictures  3 & 4      Two views of the "shortie" Observation 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >             Picture    5            A mint sealed box containing an 85' full-size (HO) to show how there were packaged. "Shorties" done same way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >         I would appreciate any information, especially the entire passenger car line. about Chester. These run nice on 18" radius track, might even run on 15"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10344
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Chester Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chester is a very rural town. I had no idea there was a model railroad manufacturer there at one time. They weren't far from the Chester Hill Branch, which was part of the CNJ's High Bridge Branch. The DL&W ROW came into town from the east and met the CNJ. There were quite a few iron mines in Chester back in the late 1800's, as well as the Taylor Iron Works, which later moved to High Bridge, NJ. Thanks for posting that info, Jim.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Does anyone know the company's years of operation?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             This is especially for all you boy / girls from New Jersey. You should have lots of information on this company    Chester Industrial Arts Co.   North Road   Chester, New Jersey. Other then the instructions that come in the sealed box I really don't no that much about the company. The plans are also on the HOseeker site. I have no idea what their line consisted of except they had full size 85" (HO Scale) fluted streamliners and "Shortie" ( Just under 8" in length ) fluted streamliners which I have sent pictures of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             What I do know is from building two sealed mint "shortie" kits. The roof and floor are wood. The ends are metal plates with 4 screw holes to attach to the roof and floor. The sides are stamped metal (what not sure). There are no trucks or diaphragms in the kits. (I used sets of Herkimer / OK Streamliner, trucks and diaphragms, on my samples).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             When assembled and painted they don't look to bad. One thing, at least to me, is that the doors and cut out windows on those doors of the RPO  seem larger then they should be. It might be just an optical illusion because of being so short..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Pictures  1 & 2     Two views of the RPO "shortie
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Pictures  3 & 4      Two views of the "shortie" Observation 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Picture    5            A mint sealed box containing an 85' full-size (HO) to show how there were packaged. "Shorties" done same way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         I would appreciate any information, especially the entire passenger car line. about Chester. These run nice on 18" radius track, might even run on 15"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10345
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Chester Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim, Jay or anyone else,  Just thought I'd mention that while I have all the Chester Shorties (corregated side), I'm looking to complete my 85' corregated side car kits.  I have triples of some of them and would trade if anyone has extras (85') of any I need.  BTW, these remind me a bit of J.C. Silversides.  I'm not sure of what metal they used either; it's light like aluminum but does have that "Mirror Finish" -- which I wouldn't expect on aluminum.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             This is especially for all you boy / girls from New Jersey. You should have lots of information on this company    Chester Industrial Arts Co.   North Road   Chester, New Jersey. Other then the instructions that come in the sealed box I really don't no that much about the company. The plans are also on the HOseeker site. I have no idea what their line consisted of except they had full size 85" (HO Scale) fluted streamliners and "Shortie" ( Just under 8" in length ) fluted streamliners which I have sent pictures of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             What I do know is from building two sealed mint "shortie" kits. The roof and floor are wood. The ends are metal plates with 4 screw holes to attach to the roof and floor. The sides are stamped metal (what not sure). There are no trucks or diaphragms in the kits. (I used sets of Herkimer / OK Streamliner, trucks and diaphragms, on my samples).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             When assembled and painted they don't look to bad. One thing, at least to me, is that the doors and cut out windows on those doors of the RPO  seem larger then they should be. It might be just an optical illusion because of being so short..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Pictures  1 & 2     Two views of the RPO "shortie
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Pictures  3 & 4      Two views of the "shortie" Observation 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Picture    5            A mint sealed box containing an 85' full-size (HO) to show how there were packaged. "Shorties" done same way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         I would appreciate any information, especially the entire passenger car line. about Chester. These run nice on 18" radius track, might even run on 15"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10346
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Chester Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Right, they couldn't have been very far from the CNJ's Chester Hill Branch, but long before this time, the Chester Hill Branch already became part of the CNJ High Bridge Branch.  Yes, the Lackawanna ROW (actually, the DL&W's Chester Branch) came into town in 1869.  The CNJ didn't come into town until 1873.  It was an interesting area especially as iron mining and subsequent railroads go.  The Chester Hill Branch connection to the Hackelbarney Mine Railroad to gain access to the ore in that particular region, and to bring it up to Chester Furnace for smelting.  The town of Mine Hill, just north of there is still pocked with iron mining shafts that can still cause bad accidents (falls) to someone unsuspecting.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chester is a very rural town. I had no idea there was a model railroad manufacturer there at one time. They weren't far from the Chester Hill Branch, which was part of the CNJ's High Bridge Branch. The DL&W ROW came into town from the east and met the CNJ. There were quite a few iron mines in Chester back in the late 1800's, as well as the Taylor Iron Works, which later moved to High Bridge, NJ. Thanks for posting that info, Jim.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Does anyone know the company's years of operation?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >             This is especially for all you boy / girls from New Jersey. You should have lots of information on this company    Chester Industrial Arts Co.   North Road   Chester, New Jersey. Other then the instructions that come in the sealed box I really don't no that much about the company. The plans are also on the HOseeker site. I have no idea what their line consisted of except they had full size 85" (HO Scale) fluted streamliners and "Shortie" ( Just under 8" in length ) fluted streamliners which I have sent pictures of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >             What I do know is from building two sealed mint "shortie" kits. The roof and floor are wood. The ends are metal plates with 4 screw holes to attach to the roof and floor. The sides are stamped metal (what not sure). There are no trucks or diaphragms in the kits. (I used sets of Herkimer / OK Streamliner, trucks and diaphragms, on my samples).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >             When assembled and painted they don't look to bad. One thing, at least to me, is that the doors and cut out windows on those doors of the RPO  seem larger then they should be. It might be just an optical illusion because of being so short..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >             Pictures  1 & 2     Two views of the RPO "shortie
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >             Pictures  3 & 4      Two views of the "shortie" Observation 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >             Picture    5            A mint sealed box containing an 85' full-size (HO) to show how there were packaged. "Shorties" done same way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >         I would appreciate any information, especially the entire passenger car line. about Chester. These run nice on 18" radius track, might even run on 15"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10347
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Chester Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don,  The copper sided cars you're thinking of are Central Lines/Exacta.  That's another interesting line of passenger cars; they made modern streamlined cars as well as old-time "Period" cars.  I have a good number of them, but I'm sure Jim H. must have some too.  Maybe he can post some pics.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I've never had a Chester, but somewhere I seem to recall in the dim dusty 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> recesses of my mind reading somewhere that the sides were copper.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Most of the aluminum cars of the 40's (American Beauty, Blue Line, Samson, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Kasiner/Herkimer etc.) made both full length and "shorty" (60')  versions so 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> people could run them on "snap track" curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 9:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Chester Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > WOw, when they say "shortie" they really mean it. The 85' models should 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > make very nice cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>             This is especially for all you boy / girls from New Jersey. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> You should have lots of information on this company    Chester Industrial 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Arts Co.   North Road   Chester, New Jersey. Other then the instructions 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> that come in the sealed box I really don't no that much about the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> company. The plans are also on the HOseeker site. I have no idea what 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> their line consisted of except they had full size 85" (HO Scale) fluted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> streamliners and "Shortie" ( Just under 8" in length ) fluted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> streamliners which I have sent pictures of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>             What I do know is from building two sealed mint "shortie" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> kits. The roof and floor are wood. The ends are metal plates with 4 screw 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> holes to attach to the roof and floor. The sides are stamped metal (what 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> not sure). There are no trucks or diaphragms in the kits. (I used sets of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Herkimer / OK Streamliner, trucks and diaphragms, on my samples).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>             When assembled and painted they don't look to bad. One thing, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> at least to me, is that the doors and cut out windows on those doors of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> the RPO  seem larger then they should be. It might be just an optical 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> illusion because of being so short..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>             Pictures  1 & 2     Two views of the RPO "shortie
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>             Pictures  3 & 4      Two views of the "shortie" Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>             Picture    5            A mint sealed box containing an 85' 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> full-size (HO) to show how there were packaged. "Shorties" done same way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>         I would appreciate any information, especially the entire 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> passenger car line. about Chester. These run nice on 18" radius track, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> might even run on 15"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10348
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Frisco hopper - was: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Jay, Sure LOOKS like an Ulrich to me too -- except for the color.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Every Ulrich catalog I have and every Walthers catalog I have up to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> this model's discontinuance (in 1979, and I have them all) describe
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> this as Red.  Unless there was a production run in there somewhere,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> where they sprayed them black.  I suppose stranger things have
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> happened.  I really can't think of who else would have made this, but
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> it doesn't match the advertised color.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                        Did Ulrich do custom runs for clubs or conventions? Could be another 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
possibility.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Higgamus hoggamus
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Woman's monogamous,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Hoggamus higgamus
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Man is polygamous."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    -Ross Barnett, "The Marriage-Go-Round"
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10349
						From: Russ Shiel
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Coming out of the woodwork in response to Ray W's observations, I plead guilty to 'occasional'...being in the 'other' hemisphere I always seem to come in on the tail end of a thread, or don't check my inbox often enough, and am overwhelmed when I finally do...! But I must say to the regulars...'keep it up!' Us lurkers get a great deal from even the incidental back and forth!!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In relation to the HOSC&H thread, I only found out about 'The Reporting Mark' and Dave Spanagel's marathon effort to keep it in print at about the time he'd decided to retire as editor. He kindly agreed to copy the entire run of TRM for me, and a carton duly arrived, including the index to vols 1-15, and Dave's listing of card-sided cars and manufacturers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    'The Reporting Mark' is a wonderful compendium of information on the early manufacturers and their products, much of which is coming around again via contributors to vintageHO (some of whom were members of the HOSC&H group), and the dedicated folks who maintain websites such as HOSeeker.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Of the original HOSC&H members, has anyone asked Dave S. if he would be interested in having 'TRM' available electronically? This would ensure the content is not lost, however Dave holds the copyright...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Back into the woodwork...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Best!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Russ in Adelaide
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, 2 May, 2009 3:53:12 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    You may have something there, Don. The "bulletin" type of publication on the HOSC&H SIG did bring it all together, whereas here the facts are often scattered. The Files section here does help organize things though. What I was getting at though, was that the subjects started by the core few (on HOSC&H) usually brought many other occasional contributors out of the woodwork, writing in what they had in their collections on these same subjects and adding what were sometimes key bits of information on a manufacturer that none of the rest of us knew about, and at the same time got them involved. I just wish some of the lurkers here would give some input so that we know what manufacturers would be of most interest here, to them.

                                                                                                                                                                                    As for content, even though there may be quiet spells -- and posting may be hot and cold at times, when it does get busy, it's almost hard to keep up with if you skip a day -- like I just did. I wasn't able to get up
 on line yesterday, but I noticed there had to be at least a couple dozen posts. Just getting caught up now. Noticed also, that during the past two days, there were probably about 16 or so different posters, about have of them regulars and half occasional posters -- I was just curious and scanned over them quickly to get some idea of the number who are more active. Those hugh groups you belong to must not have much different activity at all, if only that few people bother getting involved. I wouldn't care if some lurker here just had a handful of Varney cars; at least it would be a starting point to know where their interest lies, and to be able to continue on that topic knowing I'd be adding to that interest of theirs. Well, have to plunge into the email pile (LOL). Ray F W

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Don Dellmann"
 <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Actually, the percentage of participation here is rather high for an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > internet group. I am in groups that have 2000+ members, and only 3 or 4 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > actually participate.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have no problem with esoteric discussions. If someone isn't interested in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > that particular topic they can just skip over it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The only real disadvantage here over the kind of group you had is that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > tidbits of information are widely scattered, where your quarterly newsletter 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > brought them all together.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    > don.dellmann@ ...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                     href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                     > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@.. .>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:08 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Steve, In theory, it wouldn't be a bad idea at all, even if we could get 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > around Dave Spanagel having copyrighted it. But in practice, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > unfortunately I see major problems in the concept of this, if you mean to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > have such a group on line -- although I hope I'm wrong. Those days, there
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > were no internet groups, so anyone who had any interest in the group and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > in collecting got involved by sending in some information about items in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > their collection as they KNEW the other members would be just as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > interested -- and I'm not meaning that most of us here wouldn't be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > interested.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > But those days, MANY more people got involved, some with writing complete 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > articles on a manufacturer, and some just sending in a line or two of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > interest, sometimes only of one item. These couple of lines may have been 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > of some obscure manufacturer (like Sterling, for instance, which W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > bought up), or maybe just a "new" car side number for Globe or Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > metal which was previously unknown to most of us. With this participation 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and interest, all these different tid-bits that were
 
                                                                                                                                                                                     published quarterly 
                                                                                                                                                                                     > > gave us all some idea of direction in which most of the membership was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > only too eager to see more of -- so those who were more active knew what 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > to send in next to keep the interests up for the rest of us, as it was an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ongoing thing; the added information served to feed still more information 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > on what was of interest to most of the members.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Here, I have no idea of what the membership is interested in, and only 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > take clues by what happens to be brought up (sometimes only mentioned as a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > passing name in a discussion). Hoping that there's more interest in a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > topic, since it had been mentioned, I venture to post more on it -- but I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > still don't know what the interests of most of the other members are, on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > here. We seem to have only a comparatively core few of contributers on
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > here (not a criticism), which I fail to understand when I'm sure most of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > our 431 members must have at least something they've collected -- or I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > don't think they'd be here (maybe I'm wrong on that?). Without 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > participation, such as we had in the HOSC&H SIG, knowledge isn't being 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > shared nor is the interest in these items.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > There are innumerable topics I could bring up, just from what I have in my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > collection, but I have no way of knowing if it would be of interest to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > anyone else here, as there's no general feel for what topics motivate 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > anyone else. Fortunately, Jim H. has been taking the initiative to post 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > what he hopes would be of interest to many, but it seems to be only of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > interest to a few, from lack of feedback I see. I can understand, that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > not every member had Dallas
 
                                                                                                                                                                                     Modelcraft or Garco in their collections, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                     > > I know I'd be interested in whatever any other member may have. To start 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > up another version of the HOSC&H with a limited amount of participation 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > would probably see it fail, IMHO. Best, Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10350
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: High-Ballers Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, I'd have to put my cars side by side for comparison, but if I'm not mistaken, these High-Baller cars are very similar to IMP cars.  Been I while since I had either of these manufacturers out to look at (haven't built mine either).  IMP may only have three types of passenger cars, I don't quite remember, but they build up nice from what I've seen of George Horan's (and of course are factory painted).  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             The pictures are of what I consider a very nice set of metal passenger car kits. There were 4 types of cars.  Baggage, Combine, Fast Mail Car and a Deluxe coach.  The 4 cars are patterned after passenger cars of the 1860-1890 era. The 4 kits I have are mint and in original boxes. High-Ballers Corporation was located at  1817 Verdugo Avenue  Burbank California.  The box also states they made HO railroad accessories. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Construction is pretty straight forward although not a shake the box kit. The assembly plans are the same sheet for all 4. The plans are on the HOseeker site, You just put different sides on. Everything in  the kits is cast metal except the floor,  which is wood. One nice thing about the floor is that it is shaped and pre drilled. The roof and car body ends are cast in one with nice detail . You also get a set of trucks, many cast detail parts including the end platforms. It even has pre shaped truss rods.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    The metal sides are pre painted with mine lettered for the Pennsylvania (The sides of each  box show drawings of the four cars. Each drawing lettered for a different railroad. Pennsylvania,Central Pacific, Boston & Maine and the Chicago,Milwaukee & St. Paul. I'm guessing these are the road names the cars came in and some really nice art work on the boxes). While I don't intend to build these kits it looks like they would really make up into a very sharp set if you are modeling HO from that period. While not totally sure I think that company ROBICO sold these cars before or after High-Ballers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Picture one     top of a box
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Picture two     the ends of the 4 boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Picture three   the mint kit laid out for viewing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I'll be glad to answer any question if I can.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10351
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Blue Line "Shorties" [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes Don, I believe they are.  I remember them being sold around that time, although it was in the early '80's.  I bought two sets of them, as I figured if I ever assembled them and ran them (which I never did either) that I'd like a longer train.  So while there were no other types of cars being offered, at least I could use the extra coach and diner to make a five car train.  Walthers offered them (under Locomotive Workshop) in their 1984 catalog.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I wonder if these are ones sold by "locomotive workshop" in the 70's.  At 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> first I thought those were Varneys, but someone said the window arrangement 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> was wrong last time I posted this.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Cc: <lennard@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 5:10 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Blue Line "Shorties" [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       This will be the end of Blue Line passenger cars. The pictures show 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the tag on the end of the original box and the three car set inside. These 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> are  mint Blue Line"Shorties". They are made of metal and are 4 pieces ( 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> except the Observation which is 3, wrap around body ). They are factory 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> painted. The roof and two sides are locked together by "grooves and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> slots".The bottom is spot welded . The cars came assembled and wrapped in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> brown wax paper so they don't knick as they are packaged tightly in the box.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       There are no trucks. Includes wooden dowels, pieces of wood for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ends and underside detail.  There were "rubber" diaphragms and a large loop 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of wire for handrails and such. There are some detail parts for the roofs 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> but the odd part is the plans are for the Blue Line 85' cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       On to other passenger cars later.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                              
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10352
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jay,  Could have run into you some time at MRPO, although being a bit far for me, I never got up there too often.  I know Ray Threllfall for about 29 years now, though.  He's also a rail fan of sorts, especially of the NYS&W -- when he has the time.  The Rich's Hobbytowne I mentioned being in Parsippany, was actually the one you're referring to, in Pine Brook.  I got the names of the towns mixed up.  Rich's was in that ex-church -- which was displayed on a promotional box car too.  There was another hobby shop up the road (Route 46) a piece, in Parsippany, by the name of 20th Century Hobbies.  They opened shortly after Rich's closed. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I believe some H0SC&H members sent in pics and write ups of at least some Varney promotional cars, but I couldn't tell you which ones.  I'm missing some of my copies of thw Reporting Mark, but will scan through what I have first chance I get.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I've dropped in to the Gingerbread Shop myself from time to time, but only when I was out that way on I-78.  Nice place, he has everything.  I remember him having a Nickle Plate Products Reading Crusader engine (for about $600), and the 5 car set (for another $600).  REALLY nice, but too heavy for me.  I think that's where I saw a factory painted, also Nickel Plate Products NYO&W mountain (Mountaineer) engine #405 (semi-streamlined).  Another day that I almost died of thirst, drooling.  There was a hobby shop just outside of Easton. PA (Jim may know of it).  Have no idea if it's still there; it was a bit small, but he had good stuff.  Again, I only stopped there if I was in the vicinity -- and I'd only be in the vicinity if I was on my way railfanning, like out to Allentown.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
There used to be a fair number of shops in this area (Bergen County) about 20 years ago, but now there's only a few left.  One place I'll never forget when I was a kid was a place called Hobby Land in Hackensack, but now I'm going back into the '40's.  Talk about having stuff, they had EVERYTHING on earth.  If it was made, they had it.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Ray F W, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I suspect our paths have crossed, especially at MRPO.  During slow afternoons, I have been know to bring some vintage HO gem for show and tell there, too!  For some reason, my dad did not care for Rich's Hobbytowne on RT 46 when I was a kid in my American Flyer days, but a couple of years ago, I found a promotional Rich's Hobbytowne "Tri-O'Rama" Varney reefer in its original Varney Aerotrain box!  Decorated nicely by Varney, it sometimes can be seen with an NYSME boxcar in my Carstens RR Museum Special. BTW, did anyone at the Vintage HO SIG ever compile a list of Varney's promptional cars?  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I do remember Rich's later Pine Brook (ex-Church) and Oakland shops, but not the other one mentioned.  For a while before Ray's MRPO, went to Bob Fisher's Gingerbred Stop in Warren or Mt. Bethel, but that was a 50 mile trip, almost as far as The Model RR Shop in Dunnellen which was too far! I have heard about some of the good shops mentioned by others, but out of my area. W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Jay,  It occurred to me that we may have crossed paths at some time.  I also used to visit Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, both in the old store and then in the newly (then) remodelled store.  Do you remember Rich's Hobbytown in Parsippany -- right off Rt. 46?  He later opened another store in Oakland (NJ, for those wondering if I meant CA).  Back then, there were a lot of hobby shops around.  Now you have to travel some to get to one.  I guess you now go to Ray Threllfall's Model Railway Post Office Supply in Greenwood Lake?  I believe I saw where he was thinking of retiring, great guy.  Best,  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > John H., Yes, three grins from me, and probably a fourth as those black grease pencil discount price markings look just like the ones made by "Joe" at Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, NJ in the 1960's, the go-to spot for model railroading supplies in suburban Northern NJ back then! It was not too difficult to convince my dad to take a 14 mile drive over there a couple of times a month, even if it was only for a headlight casting and decal!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Here are two photos of the Aerotrain boxes just for grins
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10353
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, Denny, the Sampson Diesel Power Units (SL-15) were marketed; I have two of them -- with the ACF nose.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The magnesium of the handsome extruded Sampson cars is almost  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> impossible to keep finished, either as bare metal or as painted.  I  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have several Samson cars that were specially plated in the '50s solely  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> so that they would hold paint (two cars that I painted c. 1950 already  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> were losing all their paint within about two years), and first noted  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> about 15 years ago, this plating is of itself now self-exfoliating, of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> course taking the paint with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> About ten years ago, in order not to simply let them go to the land  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> fill, I gave away about 25 unbuilt kits with badly corroded bodies to  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> a collector.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have one of these Sampson Budd fluted cars right at my elbow as we  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> speak (set out to be finished as an Engineering Track Geometry Car),  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and I have been again thinking how to get the metal to accept paint.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The rough finish can be hardly touched by steel wool.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> A Sampson product that I never saw, but always looked for was their  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> handsome version of a "shovel nose" streamlined locomotive motor car  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (like the early Zephyrs, the GM&O Rebels, or the NH Comet) made up of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> a Budd-fluted passenger car body married to a plug-on cast metal nose  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and a power truck.  Their number was HL-15.  The nose seems to a  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> directly copy of the noses of the ACF motor cars produced in the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> forties for the Susquehanna, Illinois Central and Missouri Pacific  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> RRs.  I never saw one of these models, except a photo in their  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> literature, and have no idea today whether or not it was actually  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> marketed.  According to its literature it apparently had a Pittman  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> power truck powered by a DC-71 motor (pretty powerful).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The Sampson glossy photo literature is even today quite handsome, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> shows to considerable advantage how very nice these models could be  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> when "newly minted".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10354
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Russ, Good to hear from you again.  You were fortunate to have Dave Spanagel copy the entire series of Reporting Marks.  That info is priceless.  While this group is good, and I really enjoy it, I doubt any internet group could randomly assemble as much detailed information about early H0 as what went into those bulletins, only because a previous issue would help prompt so many other members to add anything they could in the next issue, to a topic being discussed about.  Now, already seeing a manufacturer's information in front of them, to be added to, these people couldn't wait to help fill in the blank spots and adding to this information.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Coming out of the woodwork in response to Ray W's observations, I plead guilty to 'occasional'...being in the 'other' hemisphere I always seem to come in on the tail end of a thread, or don't check my inbox often enough, and am overwhelmed when I finally do...! But I must say to the regulars...'keep it up!' Us lurkers get a great deal from even the incidental back and forth!!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In relation to the HOSC&H thread, I only found out about 'The Reporting Mark' and Dave Spanagel's marathon effort to keep it in print at about the time he'd decided to retire as editor. He kindly agreed to copy the entire run of TRM for me, and a carton duly arrived, including the index to vols 1-15, and Dave's listing of card-sided cars and manufacturers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 'The Reporting Mark' is a wonderful compendium of information on the early manufacturers and their products, much of which is coming around again via contributors to vintageHO (some of whom were members of the HOSC&H group), and the dedicated folks who maintain websites such as HOSeeker.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of the original HOSC&H members, has anyone asked Dave S. if he would be interested in having 'TRM' available electronically? This would ensure the content is not lost, however Dave holds the copyright...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Back into the woodwork...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Best!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Russ in Adelaide
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Saturday, 2 May, 2009 3:53:12 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You may have something there, Don. The "bulletin" type of publication on the HOSC&H SIG did bring it all together, whereas here the facts are often scattered. The Files section here does help organize things though. What I was getting at though, was that the subjects started by the core few (on HOSC&H) usually brought many other occasional contributors out of the woodwork, writing in what they had in their collections on these same subjects and adding what were sometimes key bits of information on a manufacturer that none of the rest of us knew about, and at the same time got them involved. I just wish some of the lurkers here would give some input so that we know what manufacturers would be of most interest here, to them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> As for content, even though there may be quiet spells -- and posting may be hot and cold at times, when it does get busy, it's almost hard to keep up with if you skip a day -- like I just did. I wasn't able to get up on line yesterday, but I noticed there had to be at least a couple dozen posts. Just getting caught up now. Noticed also, that during the past two days, there were probably about 16 or so different posters, about have of them regulars and half occasional posters -- I was just curious and scanned over them quickly to get some idea of the number who are more active. Those hugh groups you belong to must not have much different activity at all, if only that few people bother getting involved. I wouldn't care if some lurker here just had a handful of Varney cars; at least it would be a starting point to know where their interest lies, and to be able to continue on that topic knowing I'd be adding to that interest of theirs. Well, have to plunge
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  into the email pile (LOL). Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Actually, the percentage of participation here is rather high for an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > internet group. I am in groups that have 2000+ members, and only 3 or 4 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > actually participate.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I have no problem with esoteric discussions. If someone isn't interested in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > that particular topic they can just skip over it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The only real disadvantage here over the kind of group you had is that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > tidbits of information are widely scattered, where your quarterly newsletter 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > brought them all together.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > don.dellmann@ ...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@ .>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:08 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Steve, In theory, it wouldn't be a bad idea at all, even if we could get 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > around Dave Spanagel having copyrighted it. But in practice, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > unfortunately I see major problems in the concept of this, if you mean to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > have such a group on line -- although I hope I'm wrong. Those days, there 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > were no internet groups, so anyone who had any interest in the group and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > in collecting got involved by sending in some information about items in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > their collection as they KNEW the other members would be just as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > interested -- and I'm not meaning that most of us here wouldn't be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > interested.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > But those days, MANY more people got involved, some with writing complete 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > articles on a manufacturer, and some just sending in a line or two of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > interest, sometimes only of one item. These couple of lines may have been 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > of some obscure manufacturer (like Sterling, for instance, which W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > bought up), or maybe just a "new" car side number for Globe or Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > metal which was previously unknown to most of us. With this participation 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > and interest, all these different tid-bits that were published quarterly 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > gave us all some idea of direction in which most of the membership was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > only too eager to see more of -- so those who were more active knew what 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > to send in next to keep the interests up for the rest of us, as it was an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ongoing thing; the added information served to feed still more information 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > on what was of interest to most of the members.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Here, I have no idea of what the membership is interested in, and only 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > take clues by what happens to be brought up (sometimes only mentioned as a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > passing name in a discussion). Hoping that there's more interest in a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > topic, since it had been mentioned, I venture to post more on it -- but I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > still don't know what the interests of most of the other members are, on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > here. We seem to have only a comparatively core few of contributers on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > here (not a criticism), which I fail to understand when I'm sure most of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > our 431 members must have at least something they've collected -- or I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > don't think they'd be here (maybe I'm wrong on that?). Without 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > participation, such as we had in the HOSC&H SIG, knowledge isn't being 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > shared nor is the interest in these items.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > There are innumerable topics I could bring up, just from what I have in my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > collection, but I have no way of knowing if it would be of interest to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > anyone else here, as there's no general feel for what topics motivate 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > anyone else. Fortunately, Jim H. has been taking the initiative to post 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > what he hopes would be of interest to many, but it seems to be only of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > interest to a few, from lack of feedback I see. I can understand, that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > not every member had Dallas Modelcraft or Garco in their collections, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I know I'd be interested in whatever any other member may have. To start 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > up another version of the HOSC&H with a limited amount of participation 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > would probably see it fail, IMHO. Best, Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       The new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7: Faster, Safer, Easier.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10355
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Copper (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Chester Passenger Cars)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks,  I knew there was at least ONE line that was copper.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I've also heard of some copper steam locomotives.  An SP GS-4 daylight..... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ken Kidder?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 10:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Chester Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don,  The copper sided cars you're thinking of are Central Lines/Exacta. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> That's another interesting line of passenger cars; they made modern 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> streamlined cars as well as old-time "Period" cars.  I have a good number 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of them, but I'm sure Jim H. must have some too.  Maybe he can post some 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> pics.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I've never had a Chester, but somewhere I seem to recall in the dim dusty
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> recesses of my mind reading somewhere that the sides were copper.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Most of the aluminum cars of the 40's (American Beauty, Blue Line, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Samson,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Kasiner/Herkimer etc.) made both full length and "shorty" (60')  versions 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> so
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> people could run them on "snap track" curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 9:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Chester Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > WOw, when they say "shortie" they really mean it. The 85' models should
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > make very nice cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>             This is especially for all you boy / girls from New 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> Jersey.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> You should have lots of information on this company    Chester 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> Industrial
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> Arts Co.   North Road   Chester, New Jersey. Other then the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> instructions
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> that come in the sealed box I really don't no that much about the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> company. The plans are also on the HOseeker site. I have no idea what
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> their line consisted of except they had full size 85" (HO Scale) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> fluted
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> streamliners and "Shortie" ( Just under 8" in length ) fluted
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> streamliners which I have sent pictures of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>             What I do know is from building two sealed mint "shortie"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> kits. The roof and floor are wood. The ends are metal plates with 4 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> screw
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> holes to attach to the roof and floor. The sides are stamped metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> (what
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> not sure). There are no trucks or diaphragms in the kits. (I used sets 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> Herkimer / OK Streamliner, trucks and diaphragms, on my samples).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>             When assembled and painted they don't look to bad. One 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> at least to me, is that the doors and cut out windows on those doors 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> the RPO  seem larger then they should be. It might be just an optical
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> illusion because of being so short..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>             Pictures  1 & 2     Two views of the RPO "shortie
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>             Pictures  3 & 4      Two views of the "shortie" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>             Picture    5            A mint sealed box containing an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> 85'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> full-size (HO) to show how there were packaged. "Shorties" done same 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>         I would appreciate any information, especially the entire
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> passenger car line. about Chester. These run nice on 18" radius track,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> might even run on 15"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10356
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The "hat" was Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A bit of "political incorrectness" you won't see today, My 1947 Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
catalog shows the dockside sitting on a pack of cigarettes..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 7:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> If you have some of the older (1948, 1949) Varney catalogs, you'll see a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> picture of a Varney Dockside on a circle of track, on a record said in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> caption to be 4 1/2" radius.  Some may remember the pic of John Allen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> advertising for Varney on the back cover of MR or RMC (I don't remember 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> which) with a Dockside on a very small radius.  Could have been on a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> record again, or maybe a hat (?).  Of course this was no practical layout 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> radius, but went to show what the Dockside was capable of.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Funny.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> All those years messing around with H0 stuff, and I didn't realize we 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> even HAD 12" curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Recently found a circle of the stuff in our old bits, less two sections 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> of a full circle, I think.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> MAN, is that TIGHT!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > across more of them with the steps either removed or broken off more 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > often than any other vintage die cast models. I was told by someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > that this is because it was done in an effort to make the locos capable 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > of running on smaller radius turns. I have not ever had a problem with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > any of these units going around my layout, but I know that when I read 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > about layouts of the past... they sometimes incorporated turns with as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > small as a twelve inch radius. Hey... That's just what I heard / read. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > The Hobbyline version of this particular loco, which was plastic... had 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > separate steps. Maybe that means something. The Lionel version of it, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > afterwards, also plastic... had the steps once again cast on.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Anyway, I looked through my box of English / Hobbyline parts. I do not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > have any extra truck bottom cover plates to offer you for the original 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > die cast trucks. I did, however... find one of the plastic ones for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Hobbyline plastic version. The basic dimensions are the same, with a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > little bit of file work, and two holes drilled into it, it would make a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > great substitute... either temporary or permanent. If you're 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > interested, contact me outside the group... and it's yours. Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > across them with the steps either removed or broken off more
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10357
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: "Reporting Marks," available anywhere?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I may have come a bit late on this and missed something, but I see 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the obvious respect and appreciation for the information in, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Reporting Marks," which evidently existed for a time before I came here.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Is this RM series available anywhere now to new-comers?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 10:49 PM 5/1/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >Hi Russ, Good to hear from you again.  You were fortunate to have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Dave Spanagel copy the entire series of Reporting Marks.  That info 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>is priceless. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10358
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Mantua Pacific production/version question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Back again with more questions.  I picked up a Mantua Pacific; die 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
cast boiler, cylinders, etc., but plastic cab.  No brass axle 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
bearings on drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
If I can find one of their Pacifics with ALL die cast metal boiler 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
AND cab, does that generally indicate the model has brass insert axle 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
bearings?  I have limited interest in Mantua, and all of that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
interest, again, deals with what I was around when I was a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
kid.  (Ahh...so long ago)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
So now do I need a Mantua history book to keep company with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Varney/Greenberg book that I have coming?  (grin)  I guess I do need 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
to learn about the production variations of Mantua's Booster, Shifter 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Big Six, Pacific.....and maybe a couple others.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thank you,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10359
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 5/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Mantua Pacific production/version question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Basically. Metal cab and tender is early. Only the last gasp outta Tyco had no insert bearings, if I recall.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Hi:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Back again with more questions.  I picked up a Mantua Pacific; die 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> cast boiler, cylinders, etc., but plastic cab.  No brass axle 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> bearings on drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> If I can find one of their Pacifics with ALL die cast metal boiler 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> AND cab, does that generally indicate the model has brass insert axle 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> bearings?  I have limited interest in Mantua, and all of that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> interest, again, deals with what I was around when I was a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> kid.  (Ahh...so long ago)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> So now do I need a Mantua history book to keep company with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Varney/Greenberg book that I have coming?  (grin)  I guess I do need 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to learn about the production variations of Mantua's Booster, Shifter 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Big Six, Pacific.....and maybe a couple others.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thank you,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10360
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Political incorrectness WAS: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Speaking of 
"political incorrectness", there is an interesting John Allen photograph based 
Varney MR back cover ad featuring John Allen's "Sorfeetz brothers" 
and other members of the "Sorfeetz gang".  The cartoon-like text 
bubbles say things like "Ques pasa? The boss ees counting, Pancho."

                                                                                                                                                                                    You 
can see a scan of the ad I provided to Jeffrey Witts G&D pages 
at:
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/VARN_AD-19520800-000-300_70.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                    This is a comment I made to the the www.gdlines.com folks 
about this 
ad:

                                                                                                                                                                                    *******************************************************
                                                                                                                                                                                    ... The 
Aug 1952 ad would probably be a
                                                                                                                                                                                    bit "politically incorrect" today. But at the 
time, the "Cisco Kid"
                                                                                                                                                                                    television show (1950-1956) was extremely popular and 
most folks
                                                                                                                                                                                    probably wouldn't have given it a second thought. At at the end 
of
                                                                                                                                                                                    each Cisco Kid episode, Cisco said "Ohhh Pancho!" and Pancho
                                                                                                                                                                                    said "Ohhh 
Ceeesco!". This may have been the inspiration for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    accented english in the 
ad.
                                                                                                                                                                                    *******************************************************

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck 
Kinzer

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 

                                                                                                                                                                                    vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 10:57 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 
English Alco

                                                                                                                                                                                    The "hat" was Mantua.

                                                                                                                                                                                    A bit of "political 
incorrectness" you won't see today, My 1947 Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                    catalog shows the dockside 
sitting on a pack of cigarettes..

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                    <SNIP> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 10:57 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: English 
  Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    The "hat" was Mantua.

                                                                                                                                                                                    A bit of "political incorrectness" you won't 
  see today, My 1947 Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                    catalog shows the dockside sitting on a pack of 
  cigarettes..

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
  <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
  Friday, May 01, 2009 7:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: English 
  Alco

                                                                                                                                                                                    > If you have some of the older (1948, 1949) Varney catalogs, 
  you'll see a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > picture of a Varney Dockside on a circle of track, on a 
  record said in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > caption to be 4 1/2" radius. Some may remember the 
  pic of John Allen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > advertising for Varney on the back cover of MR or 
  RMC (I don't remember 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > which) with a Dockside on a very small radius. 
  Could have been on a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > record again, or maybe a hat (?). Of course this 
  was no practical layout 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > radius, but went to show what the Dockside 
  was capable of. Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  Funny.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> All those years messing around with H0 stuff, and I didn't 
  realize we 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> even HAD 12" curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> Recently found a 
  circle of the stuff in our old bits, less two sections 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> of a full 
  circle, I think.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> MAN, is that 
  TIGHT!
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > I have several of the John 
  English Alcos, and it seems that I come 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > across more of them 
  with the steps either removed or broken off more 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > often than 
  any other vintage die cast models. I was told by someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > 
  that this is because it was done in an effort to make the locos capable 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > of running on smaller radius turns. I have not ever had a 
  problem with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > any of these units going around my layout, but 
  I know that when I read 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > about layouts of the past... they 
  sometimes incorporated turns with as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > small as a twelve inch 
  radius. Hey... That's just what I heard / read. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > The 
  Hobbyline version of this particular loco, which was plastic... had 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > separate steps. Maybe that means something. The Lionel 
  version of it, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > afterwards, also plastic... had the steps 
  once again cast on.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > Anyway, I looked through 
  my box of English / Hobbyline parts. I do not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > have any extra 
  truck bottom cover plates to offer you for the original 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > die 
  cast trucks. I did, however... find one of the plastic ones for the 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > Hobbyline plastic version. The basic dimensions are the 
  same, with a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > little bit of file work, and two holes drilled 
  into it, it would make a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > great substitute.. . either 
  temporary or permanent. If you're 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > interested, contact me 
  outside the group... and it's yours. Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems 
  that I come 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > across them with the steps either removed or 
  broken off more
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Yahoo! 
  Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10361
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Mantua Pacific production/version question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a Mantua Pacific Kit No. 212 with 
plastic cab but all else metal (boiler and tender) and it has the insert 
bearings.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Same for the same vintage Mantua Mikado Kit No. 
208.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Boxes have bluish artwork with big reddish "MANTUA" 
name and inside has light blue cardboard packaging.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 11:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pacific 
  production/version question
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Basically. Metal cab and tender is early. Only the last gasp outta Tyco had 
  no insert bearings, if I recall.

                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Back again with more 
  questions. I picked up a Mantua Pacific; die 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > cast boiler, cylinders, 
  etc., but plastic cab. No brass axle 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > bearings on drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > If I can find one of their Pacifics with ALL die cast metal boiler 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > AND cab, does that generally indicate the model has brass insert axle 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > bearings? I have limited interest in Mantua, and all of that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  interest, again, deals with what I was around when I was a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > kid. 
  (Ahh...so long ago)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > So now do I need a Mantua history book to 
  keep company with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Varney/Greenberg book that I have coming? 
  (grin) I guess I do need 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > to learn about the production variations of 
  Mantua's Booster, Shifter 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Big Six, Pacific..... and maybe a 
  couple others.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Thank you,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dennis 
  Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10362
						From: David Helber
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Can anybody ID this steamer?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Can anybody ID this eBay Steamer body? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Item number: 150341800894
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Lot-of-Misc-Steam-loco-parts-engine_W0QQitemZ150341800894QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item150341800894&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
That curved-back handrail connects with something in my memory, but I can't think what it is. Maybe Fleischmann early US-outline?  It's early, to judge from the loop couplers and the (apparently) cast drivers (assuming the mechanism actually belongs to the plastic boiler).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10363
						From: Mike Sloane
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Shops was: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Back in the '80s, I used to deal with Totowa Hobbies, which was actually 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
in a little strip mall in Wayne NJ. I don't imagine that it is around 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
any more. But it was near where I worked.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The Model Railroad Shop is my LHS, and has been for years. The oldest 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> one in the country, as far as anyone knows. They advertised in the first 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> issue of Model Railroader.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The shop in Somerville is really nice as well, but I haven't been there 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> as much because it's a little further for me. I hope both places are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> around for a long time to come.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  > Agreed, yes, both great model shops. Been to them both a number of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> times when I've been in the area, but it's a little out of the way for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> me, coming from northeastern NJ. The Model Railroad Shop used to be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Howell Day's place. Ray 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10364
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don,  Well, okay! -- at least I did remember the hat, even if it wasn't Varney.  I'm even surprised that I did remember that part correctly (grin).  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Alright, yes, in rechecking my 1947 and 1948 Varney catalogs, I too found only the Dockside sitting on a pack of cigarettes (Chesterfield, I think, by those fancy pillars printed on the corners).  It's my 1949 catalog (yellow cover) that shows the Dockside sitting on a 4 1/2" radius of track, on top of a record.  It appears opposite this same Dockside on a cigarette pack scene on the adjacent page.  I don't know why I thought I saw it in the 1948 catalog -- maybe I picked the '49 issue up twice and scanned through it, not realizing it was the same publication -- I had all 3 of them pulled out to read.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The caption under the photo, with the record label reading "Li'l Joe Goes to Town," by Gordon Varney, reads: "Li'l Joe Goes to Town" . . . a real record!  Around and around on a 4 1/2 inch radius mounted on a phonograph record.  Thousands gasped when they saw this at the big Varney display at the Chicago and Philadelphia Hobby Shows.  Li'l Joe's always making records.  Saving space, and money, too!"  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The "hat" was Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> A bit of "political incorrectness" you won't see today, My 1947 Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> catalog shows the dockside sitting on a pack of cigarettes..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 7:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > If you have some of the older (1948, 1949) Varney catalogs, you'll see a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > picture of a Varney Dockside on a circle of track, on a record said in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > caption to be 4 1/2" radius.  Some may remember the pic of John Allen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > advertising for Varney on the back cover of MR or RMC (I don't remember 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > which) with a Dockside on a very small radius.  Could have been on a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > record again, or maybe a hat (?).  Of course this was no practical layout 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > radius, but went to show what the Dockside was capable of.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Funny.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> All those years messing around with H0 stuff, and I didn't realize we 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> even HAD 12" curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Recently found a circle of the stuff in our old bits, less two sections 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> of a full circle, I think.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> MAN, is that TIGHT!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > across more of them with the steps either removed or broken off more 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > often than any other vintage die cast models. I was told by someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > that this is because it was done in an effort to make the locos capable 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > of running on smaller radius turns. I have not ever had a problem with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > any of these units going around my layout, but I know that when I read 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > about layouts of the past... they sometimes incorporated turns with as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > small as a twelve inch radius. Hey... That's just what I heard / read. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > The Hobbyline version of this particular loco, which was plastic... had 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > separate steps. Maybe that means something. The Lionel version of it, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > afterwards, also plastic... had the steps once again cast on.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > Anyway, I looked through my box of English / Hobbyline parts. I do not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > have any extra truck bottom cover plates to offer you for the original 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > die cast trucks. I did, however... find one of the plastic ones for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > Hobbyline plastic version. The basic dimensions are the same, with a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > little bit of file work, and two holes drilled into it, it would make a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > great substitute... either temporary or permanent. If you're 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > interested, contact me outside the group... and it's yours. Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > across them with the steps either removed or broken off more
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10365
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The "hat" was Athearn, the "Silver Dollar" was Penn Line.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Irv Athearn, I believe,  did the "hat" in response to the Silver
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dollar.  Irv used the "Hustler" and Penn Line used
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the Whitcomb.  The "Hustler" wheelbase was too long
                                                                                                                                                                                    
to do the Silver Dollar.  The Whitcomb, on the other hand,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
worked well.  I've got some info about both of these
                                                                                                                                                                                    
interesting items.  Will dig it out if there is some
                                                                                                                                                                                    
interest in the topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The "hat" was Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> A bit of "political incorrectness" you won't see today, My 1947 Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> catalog shows the dockside sitting on a pack of cigarettes..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 7:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > If you have some of the older (1948, 1949) Varney catalogs, you'll see a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > picture of a Varney Dockside on a circle of track, on a record said in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > caption to be 4 1/2" radius.  Some may remember the pic of John Allen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > advertising for Varney on the back cover of MR or RMC (I don't remember 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > which) with a Dockside on a very small radius.  Could have been on a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > record again, or maybe a hat (?).  Of course this was no practical layout 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > radius, but went to show what the Dockside was capable of.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Funny.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> All those years messing around with H0 stuff, and I didn't realize we 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> even HAD 12" curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Recently found a circle of the stuff in our old bits, less two sections 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> of a full circle, I think.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> MAN, is that TIGHT!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > across more of them with the steps either removed or broken off more 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > often than any other vintage die cast models. I was told by someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > that this is because it was done in an effort to make the locos capable 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > of running on smaller radius turns. I have not ever had a problem with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > any of these units going around my layout, but I know that when I read 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > about layouts of the past... they sometimes incorporated turns with as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > small as a twelve inch radius. Hey... That's just what I heard / read. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > The Hobbyline version of this particular loco, which was plastic... had 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > separate steps. Maybe that means something. The Lionel version of it, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > afterwards, also plastic... had the steps once again cast on.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > Anyway, I looked through my box of English / Hobbyline parts. I do not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > have any extra truck bottom cover plates to offer you for the original 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > die cast trucks. I did, however... find one of the plastic ones for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > Hobbyline plastic version. The basic dimensions are the same, with a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > little bit of file work, and two holes drilled into it, it would make a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > great substitute... either temporary or permanent. If you're 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > interested, contact me outside the group... and it's yours. Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > across them with the steps either removed or broken off more
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10366
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: "Reporting Marks," available anywhere?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis,  I'm afraid that "The Reporting Mark" is not available anywhere.  It's a real shame too, as it was compiled by many of the most knowledgeable collectors of that time, Dave Spanagel included -- as he saw to it to write many of the articles it contains, on various manufacturers.  As I mentioned previously, these in-depth articles (and often just smaller one-paragraph notations on a more obscure line of cars/engines) lead to everyone else contributing additional information they had available from their collections, making for more complete listings.  Once a topic was started, there was usually a flood of additional info on it following through in the next issue, with many very eager to share what little they may have towards it.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
It was a very friendly atmosphere in that we all got to know each other (and our specific collecting interests) so very well, and we'd set up meetings at the larger train shows (swap & sells) to take up discussions on all the minor and lessor-known aspects of the earlier H0 producers.  Cooperation was such that we'd exchange each other's "want" list, to be taken to yet other states' meets which were too far out of range for others.  Just as a "for instance," I can recall finding many pieces of equipment for Dave Doiron, for one, who lived in Colorado (I'm in NJ).  Dave (Doiron) was a major contributor to Dave Spanagel's Guide to Varney Trains, as well as to Dallas Mallerich's Guide to Athearn Trains -- in case you're wondering who I'm rambling about -- but it shows the type of camaraderie that existed between all of us.  Just thought I'd give some behind-the-scenes insight as to how and what went on between many of the collectors at that time, and what it was like, as we knew we could all learn from each other.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I may have come a bit late on this and missed something, but I see 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the obvious respect and appreciation for the information in, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "Reporting Marks," which evidently existed for a time before I came here.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Is this RM series available anywhere now to new-comers?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> At 10:49 PM 5/1/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Hi Russ, Good to hear from you again.  You were fortunate to have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Dave Spanagel copy the entire series of Reporting Marks.  That info 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >is priceless.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10367
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 7:27 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The "hat" was Athearn, the "Silver Dollar" was Penn Line.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Irv Athearn, I believe,  did the "hat" in response to the Silver
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dollar.  Irv used the "Hustler" and Penn Line used
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the Whitcomb.  The "Hustler" wheelbase was too long
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to do the Silver Dollar.  The Whitcomb, on the other hand,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> worked well.  I've got some info about both of these
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> interesting items.  Will dig it out if there is some
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> interest in the topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
This time I know I wasn't wrong <G>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Here's the Mantua hat.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10368
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis A, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            A quick 
note about the ends of the Sampson passenger cars disintegrating. I had a lot go 
bad but mine seemed to have chunks fall out.  They didn't have the cracks 
I'm use to seeing in "zinc pest" (zamac rot).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          For what it's worth 
to anybody having Sampson passenger cars needing new ends contact   
Dan Bush  at Yardbirdtrains.  I had Dan (or his caster) make up new 
ones for me. I sent him one of what I wanted and got a number made at a 
reasonable price. I'm sure the mold for the copy I sent is still 
available. I did "alter" the one I sent by taking off the little square at 
the bottom that the coupler fits through.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 10:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson 
  cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    A possibly significant clue as to why the Sampson motor car may have 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    left the scene early is the fact that although the Sampson bodies were 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    magnesium, the ends were very poor quality Zamac with a very high 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    zincpest attrition rate- a fatal attribute which probably did not 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    spare the cast shaped ends.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I had an orange/maroon 18 car 
  streamliner made up primarily of Sampson 
                                                                                                                                                                                    cars. Within 10-15 years, the 
  majority of the cast ends started to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    disintegrate, and in fact did (I 
  still have a baggy full of these 
                                                                                                                                                                                    failed car ends). I replaced them with 
  new ends made of laminates of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Strathmore paper- a lot of work.

                                                                                                                                                                                    A 
  lister questioned the use of zinc chromate as a primer. Yes, this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    was the 
  very first thing tried back in the '50s- when zinc chromate 
                                                                                                                                                                                    was the real 
  zinc chromate. It failed sooner than later. Zinc 
                                                                                                                                                                                    chromate (at least in a 
  sprayable form) can no longer be purchased in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    California the last time I 
  attempted to purchase some. There are some 
                                                                                                                                                                                    "zinc chromate-like clone" 
  spray paints that I have used on some of my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    brass painting, but my 
  impression is that they are likely to be no 
                                                                                                                                                                                    better, or even worse as a 
  true metal primer.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Other methods for restoration (mag wheel restoration 
  products) are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    also noted, but it would question their probable efficacy in 
  restoring 
                                                                                                                                                                                    miniature car sides where some of the divots are practically the 
  same 
                                                                                                                                                                                    depth as the fluting.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                    Denny S. Anspach 
  MD
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sacramento

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10369
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Political incorrectness WAS: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I still fail to understand what all the laughing was all about after they said, "Hey Pancho!" . . . "Hey Ceeesco!" . . . "AHHAHAHAHAHA," as they rode off into the sunset.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Speaking of "political incorrectness", there is an interesting John Allen photograph based Varney MR back cover ad featuring John Allen's "Sorfeetz brothers" and other members of the "Sorfeetz gang".  The cartoon-like text bubbles say things like "Ques pasa? The boss ees counting, Pancho."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You can see a scan of the ad I provided to Jeffrey Witts G&D pages at:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/VARN_AD-19520800-000-300_70.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> This is a comment I made to the the www.gdlines.com folks about this ad:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> *******************************************************
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ... The Aug 1952 ad would probably be a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> bit "politically incorrect" today. But at the time, the "Cisco Kid"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> television show (1950-1956) was extremely popular and most folks
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> probably wouldn't have given it a second thought. At at the end of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> each Cisco Kid episode, Cisco said "Ohhh Pancho!" and Pancho
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> said "Ohhh Ceeesco!". This may have been the inspiration for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> accented english in the ad.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> *******************************************************
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 10:57 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The "hat" was Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> A bit of "political incorrectness" you won't see today, My 1947 Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> catalog shows the dockside sitting on a pack of cigarettes..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <SNIP> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: Don Dellmann 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 10:57 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   The "hat" was Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   A bit of "political incorrectness" you won't see today, My 1947 Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   catalog shows the dockside sitting on a pack of cigarettes..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 7:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > If you have some of the older (1948, 1949) Varney catalogs, you'll see a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > picture of a Varney Dockside on a circle of track, on a record said in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > caption to be 4 1/2" radius. Some may remember the pic of John Allen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > advertising for Varney on the back cover of MR or RMC (I don't remember 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > which) with a Dockside on a very small radius. Could have been on a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > record again, or maybe a hat (?). Of course this was no practical layout 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > radius, but went to show what the Dockside was capable of. Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> Funny.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> All those years messing around with H0 stuff, and I didn't realize we 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> even HAD 12" curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> Recently found a circle of the stuff in our old bits, less two sections 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> of a full circle, I think.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> MAN, is that TIGHT!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > across more of them with the steps either removed or broken off more 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > often than any other vintage die cast models. I was told by someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > that this is because it was done in an effort to make the locos capable 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > of running on smaller radius turns. I have not ever had a problem with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > any of these units going around my layout, but I know that when I read 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > about layouts of the past... they sometimes incorporated turns with as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > small as a twelve inch radius. Hey... That's just what I heard / read. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > The Hobbyline version of this particular loco, which was plastic... had 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > separate steps. Maybe that means something. The Lionel version of it, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > afterwards, also plastic... had the steps once again cast on.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > Anyway, I looked through my box of English / Hobbyline parts. I do not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > have any extra truck bottom cover plates to offer you for the original 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > die cast trucks. I did, however... find one of the plastic ones for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > Hobbyline plastic version. The basic dimensions are the same, with a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > little bit of file work, and two holes drilled into it, it would make a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > great substitute... either temporary or permanent. If you're 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > interested, contact me outside the group... and it's yours. Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > across them with the steps either removed or broken off more
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10370
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Copper (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Chester Passenger Cars)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                     Don D, Ray F W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            I will 
post some completed Exacta later Central Lines passenger car pictures plus 
I will lay out one kit to show what they were.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       About a month after I joined this 
yahoo group Gerold Eckl and I were discussing the 
Exacta cars. Perhaps any one good at researching back messages can go back and 
read what was going back and forth. Since we both have a number of them it 
was nice to learn from each other. We both sent paperwork to HOseeker which can 
be checked also.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 1:55 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Copper (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: 
  Chester Passenger Cars)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks, I knew there was at least ONE line that was copper.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I've 
  also heard of some copper steam locomotives. An SP GS-4 daylight.... . 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Ken Kidder?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
  <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
  Friday, May 01, 2009 10:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Chester Passenger 
  Cars

                                                                                                                                                                                    > Don, The copper sided cars you're thinking of are Central 
  Lines/Exacta. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > That's another interesting line of passenger cars; they 
  made modern 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > streamlined cars as well as old-time "Period" cars. I 
  have a good number 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > of them, but I'm sure Jim H. must have some too. 
  Maybe he can post some 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > pics. Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  I've never had a Chester, but somewhere I seem to recall in the dim 
  dusty
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> recesses of my mind reading somewhere that the sides were 
  copper.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> Most of the aluminum cars of the 40's 
  (American Beauty, Blue Line, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> Samson,
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> Kasiner/Herkimer 
  etc.) made both full length and "shorty" (60') versions 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  so
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> people could run them on "snap track" 
  curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> Don 
  Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> don.dellmann@ ...
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> From: "John Hagen" 
  <sprinthag@. ..>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 9:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 
  Chester Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > WOw, when they 
  say "shortie" they really mean it. The 85' models should
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > make 
  very nice cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  >> This is especially for all you boy / girls from New 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  >> Jersey.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> You should have lots of information on 
  this company Chester 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> Industrial
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> 
  Arts Co. North Road Chester, New Jersey. Other then the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> 
  instructions
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> that come in the sealed box I really don't 
  no that much about the
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> company. The plans are also on the 
  HOseeker site. I have no idea what
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> their line consisted 
  of except they had full size 85" (HO Scale) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> 
  fluted
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> streamliners and "Shortie" ( Just under 8" in 
  length ) fluted
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> streamliners which I have sent pictures 
  of
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> What I do know is from building 
  two sealed mint "shortie"
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> kits. The roof and floor are 
  wood. The ends are metal plates with 4 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> screw
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  >> holes to attach to the roof and floor. The sides are stamped metal 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> (what
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> not sure). There are no 
  trucks or diaphragms in the kits. (I used sets 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> 
  of
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> Herkimer / OK Streamliner, trucks and diaphragms, on 
  my samples).
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> When assembled and 
  painted they don't look to bad. One 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  >> at least to me, is that the doors and cut out windows on those doors 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> of
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> the RPO seem larger then they 
  should be. It might be just an optical
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> illusion because 
  of being so short..
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> Pictures 1 & 
  2 Two views of the RPO "shortie
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> 
  Pictures 3 & 4 Two views of the "shortie" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> 
  Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> Picture 5 A mint sealed 
  box containing an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> 85'
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> full-size 
  (HO) to show how there were packaged. "Shorties" done same 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  >> way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> I would appreciate any 
  information, especially the entire
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> passenger car line. 
  about Chester. These run nice on 18" radius track,
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> might 
  even run on 15"
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >> 
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > 
  ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Yahoo! 
  Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10371
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Shops was: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Mike, I've dealt with the same store at times many years ago.  As far as I know, they are NOT around anymore.  I believe I read a number of years ago (like maybe 6 or 8) that they went out of business.  There was also a shop down in East Rutherford, which is now out of business.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A place in Ridgefield by the name of Ridgefield Hobby still exists.  Their original place, across the street (Route 1-9) from where they are now was much larger, but they always had it as part of a luncheonette.  They're still going strong, but being much smaller (and still sharing as a luncheonette) they only have the bare essentials, although they'll order anything you want from Walthers.  Still good in a pinch if you need something not out of the ordinary.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The most "famous" hobby shop around these parts is Gary's "loose Caboose" -- famous because everyone's always amazed at how Gary knows exactly where everythning is, even though his shop is a disaster in organization -- with piles of odd stuff just piled on others all throughout the bulding, which makes this small place even more cramped.  Gary has been around for just a little over 30 years now.  I first ran into him at a train swap 7 sell in Fort Lee just before he opened his first place around the corner -- a virtual "hole-in-the-wall" for it size.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Incidentally Mike, when I first read your name here a while back, I was reminded of a Mike Sloane I knew about 40 years ago who used to belong to a local tropical fish club, but I didn't know you lived in this area until now.  By any chance, would you be that same person?  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Back in the '80s, I used to deal with Totowa Hobbies, which was actually 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in a little strip mall in Wayne NJ. I don't imagine that it is around 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> any more. But it was near where I worked.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nelson wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The Model Railroad Shop is my LHS, and has been for years. The oldest 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > one in the country, as far as anyone knows. They advertised in the first 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > issue of Model Railroader.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The shop in Somerville is really nice as well, but I haven't been there 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > as much because it's a little further for me. I hope both places are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > around for a long time to come.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  > Agreed, yes, both great model shops. Been to them both a number of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > times when I've been in the area, but it's a little out of the way for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > me, coming from northeastern NJ. The Model Railroad Shop used to be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Howell Day's place. Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10372
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ray F W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           First I want 
to know how much gold bullion you would want to sell one of your Sampson Diesel 
Power units. This is one piece that I have been searching for but have only come 
across one not for sale.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       On to other things. I did not know 
Chester made smooth side passenge cars either full size or shorties. .  I 
have all corrugated (fluted items). This is one of those times I wish I had 
catalogs / RR mags. Thanks for that info. Proves the worth of this group. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        On another note and different 
subject I just had pictures sent to me to ID. Turned out to be an unassembled 
kit of the Conover 2-10-2 cast bronze steam engine and tender and all. Between 
the catalog you sent me, the HOSC&H-SIG newsletter and Lenahan's Locomotive 
Lexicon it was really easy to ID.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 1:30 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Cast aluminum 
  cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, Denny, the Sampson Diesel Power Units (SL-15) were marketed; I have 
  two of them -- with the ACF nose. Ray F W

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Denny Anspach <danspach@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The magnesium 
  of the handsome extruded Sampson cars is almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > impossible to keep 
  finished, either as bare metal or as painted. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > have several Samson 
  cars that were specially plated in the '50s solely 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > so that they would 
  hold paint (two cars that I painted c. 1950 already 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > were losing all 
  their paint within about two years), and first noted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > about 15 years 
  ago, this plating is of itself now self-exfoliating, of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > course taking 
  the paint with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > About ten years ago, in order not to 
  simply let them go to the land 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > fill, I gave away about 25 unbuilt 
  kits with badly corroded bodies to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > a collector.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I 
  have one of these Sampson Budd fluted cars right at my elbow as we 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  speak (set out to be finished as an Engineering Track Geometry Car), 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  and I have been again thinking how to get the metal to accept paint. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  The rough finish can be hardly touched by steel wool.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > A 
  Sampson product that I never saw, but always looked for was their 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  handsome version of a "shovel nose" streamlined locomotive motor car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  (like the early Zephyrs, the GM&O Rebels, or the NH Comet) made up of 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > a Budd-fluted passenger car body married to a plug-on cast metal nose 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > and a power truck. Their number was HL-15. The nose seems to a 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > directly copy of the noses of the ACF motor cars produced in the 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > forties for the Susquehanna, Illinois Central and Missouri Pacific 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > RRs. I never saw one of these models, except a photo in their 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > literature, and have no idea today whether or not it was actually 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > marketed. According to its literature it apparently had a Pittman 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > power truck powered by a DC-71 motor (pretty powerful).
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The Sampson glossy photo literature is even today quite handsome, and 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > shows to considerable advantage how very nice these models could be 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > when "newly minted".
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10373
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Copper (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Chester Passenger Cars)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Great Jim, looking forward to seeing them.  Mine are still in kit form, so I'd like to see what built-up ones turn out to look like.  Do you have any of their "Period" cars as well?  They had "Old Fashioned" printed on the end label of those kit boxes (green boxes).  One of mine says, "B&O 1863 COACH."  These too, remind me a bit of the Hi-Baller cars, but unlike the Exacta streamlined cars, the sides (and ends) on these are gray plastic.  Later,  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  Don D, Ray F W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         I will post some completed Exacta later Central Lines passenger car pictures plus I will lay out one kit to show what they were.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    About a month after I joined this yahoo group Gerold Eckl and I were discussing the Exacta cars. Perhaps any one good at researching back messages can go back and read what was going back and forth. Since we both have a number of them it was nice to learn from each other. We both sent paperwork to HOseeker which can be checked also.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                   Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: Don Dellmann 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 1:55 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: Copper (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Chester Passenger Cars)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Thanks, I knew there was at least ONE line that was copper.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I've also heard of some copper steam locomotives. An SP GS-4 daylight..... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Ken Kidder?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 10:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Chester Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Don, The copper sided cars you're thinking of are Central Lines/Exacta. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > That's another interesting line of passenger cars; they made modern 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > streamlined cars as well as old-time "Period" cars. I have a good number 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > of them, but I'm sure Jim H. must have some too. Maybe he can post some 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > pics. Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> I've never had a Chester, but somewhere I seem to recall in the dim dusty
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> recesses of my mind reading somewhere that the sides were copper.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> Most of the aluminum cars of the 40's (American Beauty, Blue Line, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> Samson,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> Kasiner/Herkimer etc.) made both full length and "shorty" (60') versions 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> so
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> people could run them on "snap track" curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> don.dellmann@
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 9:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Chester Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > WOw, when they say "shortie" they really mean it. The 85' models should
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > make very nice cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> This is especially for all you boy / girls from New 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> Jersey.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> You should have lots of information on this company Chester 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> Industrial
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> Arts Co. North Road Chester, New Jersey. Other then the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> instructions
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> that come in the sealed box I really don't no that much about the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> company. The plans are also on the HOseeker site. I have no idea what
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> their line consisted of except they had full size 85" (HO Scale) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> fluted
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> streamliners and "Shortie" ( Just under 8" in length ) fluted
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> streamliners which I have sent pictures of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> What I do know is from building two sealed mint "shortie"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> kits. The roof and floor are wood. The ends are metal plates with 4 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> screw
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> holes to attach to the roof and floor. The sides are stamped metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> (what
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> not sure). There are no trucks or diaphragms in the kits. (I used sets 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> Herkimer / OK Streamliner, trucks and diaphragms, on my samples).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> When assembled and painted they don't look to bad. One 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> at least to me, is that the doors and cut out windows on those doors 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> the RPO seem larger then they should be. It might be just an optical
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> illusion because of being so short..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> Pictures 1 & 2 Two views of the RPO "shortie
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> Pictures 3 & 4 Two views of the "shortie" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> Picture 5 A mint sealed box containing an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> 85'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> full-size (HO) to show how there were packaged. "Shorties" done same 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> I would appreciate any information, especially the entire
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> passenger car line. about Chester. These run nice on 18" radius track,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> might even run on 15"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10374
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi again Jim,  As you may be aware, Sampson was the only manufacturer working in any material that produced an ACF end, unless there was a brass model produced of an ACF rail diesel car -- which I don't believe so, as best I know.  The Susquehanna's two double-end ACF cars (#1001 & #1002) have ALWAYS been favorites of mine, which I always looked forward to watching back in the early 1940's whenever my mother would take me along for shopping in Hackensack (where the NYS&W's main line went through town.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Right now, I have one of these at a local casting facility to make a mold and produce for me 1000 of these ACF noses in cast brass, which I intend to finish with sheet brass bodies and market them, possibly using Athearn drives as their reasonable yet reliable.  Perhaps I may consider selling one in the future, but for now I need to hang on to both, just in case one gets lost.  I know I'm taking a chance in leaving one in someone else's hands, but there's no other way to make a mold of it that I know of.  I'll let you know on this.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
My distinct pleasure in letting you know of the Chester smooth-sides.  Just something more to watch out for, right? -- Does it ever end, and what anxiety do we go through while waiting to come across them (LOL).  A CONOVER 2-10-2!!!! Now that's something not to sneeze about.  Naturally, you told him what a piece of worthless scrap metal it is, and that you'd be glad to take this burden off his hands, right?  Glad you were able to I.D, it.  Is he selling it <g>.  What's his phone number, by the way (LOL - LOL - LOL).  Shows you this stuff still exists -- somewhere.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Ray F W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        First I want to know how much gold bullion you would want to sell one of your Sampson Diesel Power units. This is one piece that I have been searching for but have only come across one not for sale.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    On to other things. I did not know Chester made smooth side passenge cars either full size or shorties. .  I have all corrugated (fluted items). This is one of those times I wish I had catalogs / RR mags. Thanks for that info. Proves the worth of this group. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     On another note and different subject I just had pictures sent to me to ID. Turned out to be an unassembled kit of the Conover 2-10-2 cast bronze steam engine and tender and all. Between the catalog you sent me, the HOSC&H-SIG newsletter and Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon it was really easy to ID.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 1:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Cast aluminum cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Yes, Denny, the Sampson Diesel Power Units (SL-15) were marketed; I have two of them -- with the ACF nose. Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > The magnesium of the handsome extruded Sampson cars is almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > impossible to keep finished, either as bare metal or as painted. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > have several Samson cars that were specially plated in the '50s solely 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > so that they would hold paint (two cars that I painted c. 1950 already 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > were losing all their paint within about two years), and first noted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > about 15 years ago, this plating is of itself now self-exfoliating, of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > course taking the paint with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > About ten years ago, in order not to simply let them go to the land 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > fill, I gave away about 25 unbuilt kits with badly corroded bodies to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > a collector.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I have one of these Sampson Budd fluted cars right at my elbow as we 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > speak (set out to be finished as an Engineering Track Geometry Car), 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > and I have been again thinking how to get the metal to accept paint. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > The rough finish can be hardly touched by steel wool.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > A Sampson product that I never saw, but always looked for was their 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > handsome version of a "shovel nose" streamlined locomotive motor car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > (like the early Zephyrs, the GM&O Rebels, or the NH Comet) made up of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > a Budd-fluted passenger car body married to a plug-on cast metal nose 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > and a power truck. Their number was HL-15. The nose seems to a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > directly copy of the noses of the ACF motor cars produced in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > forties for the Susquehanna, Illinois Central and Missouri Pacific 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > RRs. I never saw one of these models, except a photo in their 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > literature, and have no idea today whether or not it was actually 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > marketed. According to its literature it apparently had a Pittman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > power truck powered by a DC-71 motor (pretty powerful).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > The Sampson glossy photo literature is even today quite handsome, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > shows to considerable advantage how very nice these models could be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > when "newly minted".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10375
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Exacta Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
These are pictures of Exacta / Central Lines passenger cars. As I stated in a 
previous Email a lengthy discussion took place between Gerold Eckl, others and 
myself previously. Those messages could still be found for the information they 
contained on this vintage HO site.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         The Exacta / Central Lines 
cars were made from copper. You can still see the copper one piece 
body from the kit still shiny after all these years. I'm told the first 
Exacta were made in 1946.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         Originally "Exacta" Scale 
Models Inc. were made at     4215 No. Vancouver Ave. 
Portland 11, Oregon. They later were acquired by Central Lines of  San 
Francisco, California. I have to believe that the kit I am showing would be a 
"transitional" item. The plans say Exacta with the Oregon address. The kit 
contains a sticker on the original box saying Exacta streamliners with the 
Central Lines Calif address. Packets of parts in the kit are clearly marked 
Central Lines. I have no idea how long marketed as Exacta and when it became 
Exacta / Central Lines. I think they were even sold as just Central 
Lines.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       The assembly not the easiest to me. 
They give you many different sizes and thicknesses of some kind of real crappy 
wood to build a body frame.There is a wooden pre shaped floor and roof. After 
you assemble this you shape the one piece copper body over the roof and 
sides.  Plans sent to HOseeker will show the construction. It's a very 
large sheet, two sides with very detailed assembly instructions. A number 
of other papers are on the HOseeker site from member Gerold Eckl as 
well. You then have 2 copper ends you attach plus details provided.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        The cars when assembled are not 
bad. I have included 4 of them. Again I did not sit down and research the types 
made. These are fluted streamliners. One bad thing about the built item pictures 
. The builder, not me, never put window material in the cars before soldering 
the ends on. I don't want to spend the time taking them apart. To 
lazy.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        The pictures sent show the kit 
box, sticker end, contents of the kit and a peek at the assembly sheet. There 
are pictures of 4 different assemble cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10376
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ray F W, Mike S, In reading all the hobby shop memories, those were/are in a way, aspecial part of our model world. Yes, Totowa Hobby in Mt View, (Howard?) retired 6 or so years ago, his father originally establised the shop on Union Blvd., Totowa; a nice well stocked shop - he never rang up the sales on the register or used an adding machine, used a pencil on the brown bag and you had to check his math!.  Fisher of Gingerbread Stop also retired and went south a few years ago; he has a nice website and has self-published excellent books on the LNE and CNJ. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A few years back, I took a friend who had never been, drove in back where Fisher's gound level shop was - and saw a coffee shop!  Went in anyway and asked the woman where the model RR shop went and after she told me, I remarked about being disapointed to find he was gone.  She said with a laugh, "But not as disappointed as the man who had traveled from Austrailia!" (In NYC on business, it turned out!) At least her coffee was good. 20th Century was a bright shiny modern place (Joe Jordon?) still has/had a web only shop.  I think Paul's was the name of the shop in East Rutherford, my dad took me there once.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Jay,  Could have run into you some time at MRPO, although being a bit far for me, I never got up there too often.  I know Ray Threllfall for about 29 years now, though.  He's also a rail fan of sorts, especially of the NYS&W -- when he has the time.  The Rich's Hobbytowne I mentioned being in Parsippany, was actually the one you're referring to, in Pine Brook.  I got the names of the towns mixed up.  Rich's was in that ex-church -- which was displayed on a promotional box car too.  There was another hobby shop up the road (Route 46) a piece, in Parsippany, by the name of 20th Century Hobbies.  They opened shortly after Rich's closed. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I believe some H0SC&H members sent in pics and write ups of at least some Varney promotional cars, but I couldn't tell you which ones.  I'm missing some of my copies of thw Reporting Mark, but will scan through what I have first chance I get.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I've dropped in to the Gingerbread Shop myself from time to time, but only when I was out that way on I-78.  Nice place, he has everything.  I remember him having a Nickle Plate Products Reading Crusader engine (for about $600), and the 5 car set (for another $600).  REALLY nice, but too heavy for me.  I think that's where I saw a factory painted, also Nickel Plate Products NYO&W mountain (Mountaineer) engine #405 (semi-streamlined).  Another day that I almost died of thirst, drooling.  There was a hobby shop just outside of Easton. PA (Jim may know of it).  Have no idea if it's still there; it was a bit small, but he had good stuff.  Again, I only stopped there if I was in the vicinity -- and I'd only be in the vicinity if I was on my way railfanning, like out to Allentown.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> There used to be a fair number of shops in this area (Bergen County) about 20 years ago, but now there's only a few left.  One place I'll never forget when I was a kid was a place called Hobby Land in Hackensack, but now I'm going back into the '40's.  Talk about having stuff, they had EVERYTHING on earth.  If it was made, they had it.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Ray F W, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I suspect our paths have crossed, especially at MRPO.  During slow afternoons, I have been know to bring some vintage HO gem for show and tell there, too!  For some reason, my dad did not care for Rich's Hobbytowne on RT 46 when I was a kid in my American Flyer days, but a couple of years ago, I found a promotional Rich's Hobbytowne "Tri-O'Rama" Varney reefer in its original Varney Aerotrain box!  Decorated nicely by Varney, it sometimes can be seen with an NYSME boxcar in my Carstens RR Museum Special. BTW, did anyone at the Vintage HO SIG ever compile a list of Varney's promptional cars?  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I do remember Rich's later Pine Brook (ex-Church) and Oakland shops, but not the other one mentioned.  For a while before Ray's MRPO, went to Bob Fisher's Gingerbred Stop in Warren or Mt. Bethel, but that was a 50 mile trip, almost as far as The Model RR Shop in Dunnellen which was too far! I have heard about some of the good shops mentioned by others, but out of my area. W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Hi Jay,  It occurred to me that we may have crossed paths at some time.  I also used to visit Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, both in the old store and then in the newly (then) remodelled store.  Do you remember Rich's Hobbytown in Parsippany -- right off Rt. 46?  He later opened another store in Oakland (NJ, for those wondering if I meant CA).  Back then, there were a lot of hobby shops around.  Now you have to travel some to get to one.  I guess you now go to Ray Threllfall's Model Railway Post Office Supply in Greenwood Lake?  I believe I saw where he was thinking of retiring, great guy.  Best,  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > John H., Yes, three grins from me, and probably a fourth as those black grease pencil discount price markings look just like the ones made by "Joe" at Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, NJ in the 1960's, the go-to spot for model railroading supplies in suburban Northern NJ back then! It was not too difficult to convince my dad to take a 14 mile drive over there a couple of times a month, even if it was only for a headlight casting and decal!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Here are two photos of the Aerotrain boxes just for grins
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10377
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Exacta Passenger Cars [8 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                   These are pictures of Exacta / Central Lines 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> passenger cars. As I stated in a previous Email a lengthy discussion 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> took place between Gerold Eckl, others and myself previously. Those 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> messages could still be found for the information they contained on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> this vintage HO site.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I am listening.... pretty busy just now, will try to post some pictures 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
too .
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10378
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: NYS&W ACF's!!! !!!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray F W! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sampson's ads sdvertised selling those ACF ends separately and since I found that model existed only a couple years ago, I hoped to find one or two in a train show junk box or eBay lot (if only one I could replicate it in resin) and finally build a "vintage model" ACF railcar.  I had started scratchbuilding a NYS&W ACF railcar shortly after Carstens Loco 1 was published, buying Notheastern roof and floor stock, Kemtron journals and springs, etc.  For sides, I had laid out a boomerang shape on a card pattern, to be used for the styrene sides, (from center door around end to opposite center door) that once formed would produce the requiste sloped end profile, but college, employemt and other pursuits interrupted that dream.  Count me in for at least one, even if you simply produce the body parts set and leave the drives up to the purchasers.   W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 (--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi again Jim,  As you may be aware, Sampson was the only manufacturer working in any material that produced an ACF end, unless there was a brass model produced of an ACF rail diesel car -- which I don't believe so, as best I know.  The Susquehanna's two double-end ACF cars (#1001 & #1002) have ALWAYS been favorites of mine, which I always looked forward to watching back in the early 1940's whenever my mother would take me along for shopping in Hackensack (where the NYS&W's main line went through town.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Right now, I have one of these at a local casting facility to make a mold and produce for me 1000 of these ACF noses in cast brass, which I intend to finish with sheet brass bodies and market them, possibly using Athearn drives as their reasonable yet reliable.  Perhaps I may consider selling one in the future, but for now I need to hang on to both, just in case one gets lost.  I know I'm taking a chance in leaving one in someone else's hands, but there's no other way to make a mold of it that I know of.  I'll let you know on this.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> My distinct pleasure in letting you know of the Chester smooth-sides.  Just something more to watch out for, right? -- Does it ever end, and what anxiety do we go through while waiting to come across them (LOL).  A CONOVER 2-10-2!!!! Now that's something not to sneeze about.  Naturally, you told him what a piece of worthless scrap metal it is, and that you'd be glad to take this burden off his hands, right?  Glad you were able to I.D, it.  Is he selling it <g>.  What's his phone number, by the way (LOL - LOL - LOL).  Shows you this stuff still exists -- somewhere.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Ray F W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >        First I want to know how much gold bullion you would want to sell one of your Sampson Diesel Power units. This is one piece that I have been searching for but have only come across one not for sale.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >    On to other things. I did not know Chester made smooth side passenge cars either full size or shorties. .  I have all corrugated (fluted items). This is one of those times I wish I had catalogs / RR mags. Thanks for that info. Proves the worth of this group. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     On another note and different subject I just had pictures sent to me to ID. Turned out to be an unassembled kit of the Conover 2-10-2 cast bronze steam engine and tender and all. Between the catalog you sent me, the HOSC&H-SIG newsletter and Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon it was really easy to ID.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 1:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Cast aluminum cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Yes, Denny, the Sampson Diesel Power Units (SL-15) were marketed; I have two of them -- with the ACF nose. Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > The magnesium of the handsome extruded Sampson cars is almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > impossible to keep finished, either as bare metal or as painted. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > have several Samson cars that were specially plated in the '50s solely 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > so that they would hold paint (two cars that I painted c. 1950 already 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > were losing all their paint within about two years), and first noted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > about 15 years ago, this plating is of itself now self-exfoliating, of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > course taking the paint with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > About ten years ago, in order not to simply let them go to the land 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > fill, I gave away about 25 unbuilt kits with badly corroded bodies to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > a collector.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > I have one of these Sampson Budd fluted cars right at my elbow as we 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > speak (set out to be finished as an Engineering Track Geometry Car), 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > and I have been again thinking how to get the metal to accept paint. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > The rough finish can be hardly touched by steel wool.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > A Sampson product that I never saw, but always looked for was their 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > handsome version of a "shovel nose" streamlined locomotive motor car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > (like the early Zephyrs, the GM&O Rebels, or the NH Comet) made up of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > a Budd-fluted passenger car body married to a plug-on cast metal nose 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > and a power truck. Their number was HL-15. The nose seems to a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > directly copy of the noses of the ACF motor cars produced in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > forties for the Susquehanna, Illinois Central and Missouri Pacific 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > RRs. I never saw one of these models, except a photo in their 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > literature, and have no idea today whether or not it was actually 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > marketed. According to its literature it apparently had a Pittman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > power truck powered by a DC-71 motor (pretty powerful).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > The Sampson glossy photo literature is even today quite handsome, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > shows to considerable advantage how very nice these models could be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > when "newly minted".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10379
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast aluminum cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray F W ,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           
     Good luck on your venture. Hope it works out and the 
caster does right by you. I sure hope that there is no problem with you giving 
him a sample to go by.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            Prying that Conover 
2-10-2 out of the new owners hands (I can't reveal who on site). He happens to 
be heavily involved in an HO train business and knows a lot about Mantua 
vintage HO (hint hint). He wasn't sure at first and just needed a 
verification.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            Don't 
think I didn't ask what he intended to do with it. He said it will become part 
of his collection for now but I would be notified if he would sell 
it
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
The story on how he got it is interesting and goes to show right place, right 
time. He was at a train show (forgot where) and saw this on a table for as he 
said "a few bucks". He had an inkling what it was and the price was right he 
bought it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 10:01 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Cast aluminum 
  cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi again Jim, As you may be aware, Sampson was the only manufacturer 
  working in any material that produced an ACF end, unless there was a brass 
  model produced of an ACF rail diesel car -- which I don't believe so, as best 
  I know. The Susquehanna' s two double-end ACF cars (#1001 & #1002) 
  have ALWAYS been favorites of mine, which I always looked forward to watching 
  back in the early 1940's whenever my mother would take me along for shopping 
  in Hackensack (where the NYS&W's main line went through town.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Right 
  now, I have one of these at a local casting facility to make a mold and 
  produce for me 1000 of these ACF noses in cast brass, which I intend to finish 
  with sheet brass bodies and market them, possibly using Athearn drives as 
  their reasonable yet reliable. Perhaps I may consider selling one in the 
  future, but for now I need to hang on to both, just in case one gets lost. I 
  know I'm taking a chance in leaving one in someone else's hands, but there's 
  no other way to make a mold of it that I know of. I'll let you know on 
  this.

                                                                                                                                                                                    My distinct pleasure in letting you know of the Chester 
  smooth-sides. Just something more to watch out for, right? -- Does it ever 
  end, and what anxiety do we go through while waiting to come across them 
  (LOL). A CONOVER 2-10-2!!!! Now that's something not to sneeze about. 
  Naturally, you told him what a piece of worthless scrap metal it is, and that 
  you'd be glad to take this burden off his hands, right? Glad you were able to 
  I.D, it. Is he selling it <g>. What's his phone number, by the way (LOL 
  - LOL - LOL). Shows you this stuff still exists -- somewhere. Ray F 
  W

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Ray F W, 
  All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > First I want to know how much gold bullion you would 
  want to sell one of your Sampson Diesel Power units. This is one piece that I 
  have been searching for but have only come across one not for sale.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > On to other things. I did not know Chester made smooth side passenge 
  cars either full size or shorties. . I have all corrugated (fluted items). 
  This is one of those times I wish I had catalogs / RR mags. Thanks for that 
  info. Proves the worth of this group. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > On another note and 
  different subject I just had pictures sent to me to ID. Turned out to be an 
  unassembled kit of the Conover 2-10-2 cast bronze steam engine and tender and 
  all. Between the catalog you sent me, the HOSC&H-SIG newsletter and 
  Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon it was really easy to ID.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 1:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 
  Cast aluminum cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Yes, 
  Denny, the Sampson Diesel Power Units (SL-15) were marketed; I have two of 
  them -- with the ACF nose. Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Denny Anspach <danspach@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > The magnesium 
  of the handsome extruded Sampson cars is almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > impossible to 
  keep finished, either as bare metal or as painted. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > have 
  several Samson cars that were specially plated in the '50s solely 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > so that they would hold paint (two cars that I painted c. 1950 already 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > were losing all their paint within about two years), and first 
  noted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > about 15 years ago, this plating is of itself now 
  self-exfoliating, of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > course taking the paint with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > About ten years ago, in order not to simply let them go to 
  the land 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > fill, I gave away about 25 unbuilt kits with badly 
  corroded bodies to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > a collector.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I 
  have one of these Sampson Budd fluted cars right at my elbow as we 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > speak (set out to be finished as an Engineering Track Geometry Car), 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and I have been again thinking how to get the metal to accept 
  paint. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > The rough finish can be hardly touched by steel 
  wool.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > A Sampson product that I never saw, but 
  always looked for was their 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > handsome version of a "shovel nose" 
  streamlined locomotive motor car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > (like the early Zephyrs, the 
  GM&O Rebels, or the NH Comet) made up of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > a Budd-fluted 
  passenger car body married to a plug-on cast metal nose 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > and a 
  power truck. Their number was HL-15. The nose seems to a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
  directly copy of the noses of the ACF motor cars produced in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
  forties for the Susquehanna, Illinois Central and Missouri Pacific 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > RRs. I never saw one of these models, except a photo in their 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > literature, and have no idea today whether or not it was actually 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > marketed. According to its literature it apparently had a 
  Pittman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > power truck powered by a DC-71 motor (pretty 
  powerful).
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > The Sampson glossy photo literature is 
  even today quite handsome, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > shows to considerable advantage 
  how very nice these models could be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > when "newly minted".
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10380
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cast Conover 2-10-2
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H,  I was aksed to identify one by a brass dealer and it took several days for me to figure it out as had no Lenehan's or HOSC&H-SIG journal.  I did remember the name from Carstens' occasional lists of models past and that was a model steam locomotive I had not seen before. Had to start digging though the old magazines and forget how I confirmed it, might have been in a "Boomer Trail" photo.  If the model photos were saved, I will find, get permission and post them.  If I remember correctly, Conover was located in Tarrytown, NY.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Ray F W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        First I want to know how much gold bullion you would want to sell one of your Sampson Diesel Power units. This is one piece that I have been searching for but have only come across one not for sale.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    On to other things. I did not know Chester made smooth side passenge cars either full size or shorties. .  I have all corrugated (fluted items). This is one of those times I wish I had catalogs / RR mags. Thanks for that info. Proves the worth of this group. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     On another note and different subject I just had pictures sent to me to ID. Turned out to be an unassembled kit of the Conover 2-10-2 cast bronze steam engine and tender and all. Between the catalog you sent me, the newsletter and Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon it was really easy to ID.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 1:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Cast aluminum cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Yes, Denny, the Sampson Diesel Power Units (SL-15) were marketed; I have two of them -- with the ACF nose. Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > The magnesium of the handsome extruded Sampson cars is almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > impossible to keep finished, either as bare metal or as painted. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > have several Samson cars that were specially plated in the '50s solely 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > so that they would hold paint (two cars that I painted c. 1950 already 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > were losing all their paint within about two years), and first noted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > about 15 years ago, this plating is of itself now self-exfoliating, of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > course taking the paint with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > About ten years ago, in order not to simply let them go to the land 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > fill, I gave away about 25 unbuilt kits with badly corroded bodies to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > a collector.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I have one of these Sampson Budd fluted cars right at my elbow as we 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > speak (set out to be finished as an Engineering Track Geometry Car), 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > and I have been again thinking how to get the metal to accept paint. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > The rough finish can be hardly touched by steel wool.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > A Sampson product that I never saw, but always looked for was their 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > handsome version of a "shovel nose" streamlined locomotive motor car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > (like the early Zephyrs, the GM&O Rebels, or the NH Comet) made up of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > a Budd-fluted passenger car body married to a plug-on cast metal nose 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > and a power truck. Their number was HL-15. The nose seems to a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > directly copy of the noses of the ACF motor cars produced in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > forties for the Susquehanna, Illinois Central and Missouri Pacific 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > RRs. I never saw one of these models, except a photo in their 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > literature, and have no idea today whether or not it was actually 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > marketed. According to its literature it apparently had a Pittman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > power truck powered by a DC-71 motor (pretty powerful).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > The Sampson glossy photo literature is even today quite handsome, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > shows to considerable advantage how very nice these models could be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > when "newly minted".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10381
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Well I got a couple of old Docksides that I know are old and a few old freight cars(Varney), but over all not much really intresting like a lot of the folks here. I just like to gather in the info they put out on the diferent subjects and learn more than I did.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 22:24:53 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Charlie,  Yeah, I guess that's the only way to see if I get a bite! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I'll throw some manufacturer out there and see if there's any 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> interest (or curiousity).  Not to put you on any spot, but can I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> assume you must have some old stuff?  Anything worth mentioning?  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Or, anything you wanted to know, but were afraid to ask (LOL).  Ray 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Windes" <cwindes@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Drop some bait in the water and see who or what bites to get more 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > info, I do not know much of the early HO stuff except what I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > read here and in some of my olde Model Railroader. See what 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > happens.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > -- It's News. It's Reviews. It's Interviews. It's Free. What Are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > You Waiting For?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > www.movieline.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Be Yourself @ mail.com!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Get a Free Account at www.mail.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10382
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don - I DO recall seeing that ad.  The Athearn "hat"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
was one of those big floppy looking brown mens hats (early
                                                                                                                                                                                    
50's style if you know what I mean).  Can't remember if
                                                                                                                                                                                    
it was actually "worn" by someone in what I saw.  I found
                                                                                                                                                                                    
some of the Whitcomb stuff but I know I have more.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Joe O'Loughlin  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 7:27 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The "hat" was Athearn, the "Silver Dollar" was Penn Line.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Irv Athearn, I believe,  did the "hat" in response to the Silver
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dollar.  Irv used the "Hustler" and Penn Line used
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the Whitcomb.  The "Hustler" wheelbase was too long
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > to do the Silver Dollar.  The Whitcomb, on the other hand,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > worked well.  I've got some info about both of these
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > interesting items.  Will dig it out if there is some
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > interest in the topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> This time I know I wasn't wrong <G>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Here's the Mantua hat.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10383
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Sorry HO Cartoon
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    You know to whom it may comcern, I think Politically correctness is just about destroying the world. Just to keep this on subject the HO cartoon for Varney was very entertaining.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Charlie W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: ckinzer@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Political incorrectness WAS: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 00:09:11 -0700

                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Speaking of "political incorrectness", there is an interesting John Allen photograph based Varney MR back cover ad featuring John Allen's "Sorfeetz brothers" and other members of the "Sorfeetz gang".  The cartoon-like text bubbles say things like "Ques pasa? The boss ees counting, Pancho."

                                                                                                                                                                                    You can see a scan of the ad I provided to Jeffrey Witts G&D pages at:
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/VARN_AD-19520800-000-300_70.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                    This is a comment I made to the the www.gdlines.com folks about this ad:

                                                                                                                                                                                    *******************************************************
                                                                                                                                                                                    ... The Aug 1952 ad would probably be a
                                                                                                                                                                                    bit "politically incorrect" today. But at the time, the "Cisco Kid"
                                                                                                                                                                                    television show (1950-1956) was extremely popular and most folks
                                                                                                                                                                                    probably wouldn't have given it a second thought. At at the end of
                                                                                                                                                                                    each Cisco Kid episode, Cisco said "Ohhh Pancho!" and Pancho
                                                                                                                                                                                    said "Ohhh Ceeesco!". This may have been the inspiration for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    accented english in the ad.
                                                                                                                                                                                    *******************************************************

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    To:                                                                                                                                                                                     vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 10:57 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco

                                                                                                                                                                                    The "hat" was Mantua.

                                                                                                                                                                                    A bit of "political incorrectness" you won't see today, My 1947 Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                    catalog shows the dockside sitting on a pack of cigarettes..

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                    <SNIP> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 10:57 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The "hat" was Mantua.

                                                                                                                                                                                    A bit of "political incorrectness" you won't see today, My 1947 Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                    catalog shows the dockside sitting on a pack of cigarettes..

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 7:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco

                                                                                                                                                                                    > If you have some of the older (1948, 1949) Varney catalogs, you'll see a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > picture of a Varney Dockside on a circle of track, on a record said in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > caption to be 4 1/2" radius. Some may remember the pic of John Allen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > advertising for Varney on the back cover of MR or RMC (I don't remember 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > which) with a Dockside on a very small radius. Could have been on a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > record again, or maybe a hat (?). Of course this was no practical layout 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > radius, but went to show what the Dockside was capable of. Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> Funny.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> All those years messing around with H0 stuff, and I didn't realize we 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> even HAD 12" curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> Recently found a circle of the stuff in our old bits, less two sections 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> of a full circle, I think.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> MAN, is that TIGHT!
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > across more of them with the steps either removed or broken off more 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > often than any other vintage die cast models. I was told by someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > that this is because it was done in an effort to make the locos capable 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > of running on smaller radius turns. I have not ever had a problem with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > any of these units going around my layout, but I know that when I read 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > about layouts of the past... they sometimes incorporated turns with as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > small as a twelve inch radius. Hey... That's just what I heard / read. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > The Hobbyline version of this particular loco, which was plastic... had 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > separate steps. Maybe that means something. The Lionel version of it, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > afterwards, also plastic... had the steps once again cast on.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > Anyway, I looked through my box of English / Hobbyline parts. I do not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > have any extra truck bottom cover plates to offer you for the original 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > die cast trucks. I did, however... find one of the plastic ones for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > Hobbyline plastic version. The basic dimensions are the same, with a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > little bit of file work, and two holes drilled into it, it would make a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > great substitute.. . either temporary or permanent. If you're 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > interested, contact me outside the group... and it's yours. Stephen
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > I have several of the John English Alcos, and it seems that I come 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> > across them with the steps either removed or broken off more
                                                                                                                                                                                    >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

-- 

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10384
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Can anybody ID this steamer?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    David H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                I 
didn't forget your request for an ID on that Ebay item.  Nothing in the 
picture jumps out to me. I want to print it out and blow up the picture to 
see detail better.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Very hard to ID if the picture 
is poor and only one view and there isn't much you can do about it. If you 
are an Ebay member ask the seller if he can take more pictures. A good 
inside shot and an underneath picture would be helpful but no guarantee. It 
might be a mix and match item or even someone's project. I'll see what I can 
come up with.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I know other members might 
be able to spot a detail and tell you. Give me a little while, if no one else 
can help, to get back to you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 4:40 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Can anybody ID this 
  steamer?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Can anybody ID this eBay Steamer body? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Item number: 150341800894
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://cgi.ebay. com/Vintage- Lot-of-Misc- Steam-loco- parts-engine_ W0QQitemZ1503418 00894QQcmdZViewI temQQptZModel_ RR_Trains? hash=item1503418 00894&_trksid= p3286.c0. m14&_trkparms= 72%3A1205% 7C66%3A2% 7C65%3A12% 7C39%3A1% 7C240%3A1318% 7C301%3A0% 7C293%3A1% 7C294%3A50

                                                                                                                                                                                    That 
  curved-back handrail connects with something in my memory, but I can't think 
  what it is. Maybe Fleischmann early US-outline? It's early, to judge from the 
  loop couplers and the (apparently) cast drivers (assuming the mechanism 
  actually belongs to the plastic boiler). 

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10385
						From: solly_46
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Wanted Athearn Black Widow Shell for F7A
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Wanted Athearn Black Widow Shell for F7A 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Randy
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10386
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Can anybody ID this steamer?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    David H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        I should have read the write-up 
for the engine you would like identified. The part saying gears on the back of 
the drivers. Leads me to believe Fleischmann.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        I hope Gerold Eckl is following 
this too. Being across the pond in Austria he might have a better handle on 
checking this out. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        I will still follow up on 
it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 4:40 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Can anybody ID this 
  steamer?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Can anybody ID this eBay Steamer body? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Item number: 150341800894
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://cgi.ebay. com/Vintage- Lot-of-Misc- Steam-loco- parts-engine_ W0QQitemZ1503418 00894QQcmdZViewI temQQptZModel_ RR_Trains? hash=item1503418 00894&_trksid= p3286.c0. m14&_trkparms= 72%3A1205% 7C66%3A2% 7C65%3A12% 7C39%3A1% 7C240%3A1318% 7C301%3A0% 7C293%3A1% 7C294%3A50

                                                                                                                                                                                    That 
  curved-back handrail connects with something in my memory, but I can't think 
  what it is. Maybe Fleischmann early US-outline? It's early, to judge from the 
  loop couplers and the (apparently) cast drivers (assuming the mechanism 
  actually belongs to the plastic boiler). 

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10387
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: The American Beauty Lines Listing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    I think I got it all now.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 5:11 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: The
American Beauty Lines Listing
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck, Many thanks again for drawing up and posting
the American Beauty Lines spread-sheet to the files for me. I'll fill in the
rest of the colors you've started. As I guess you saw, I've been unable to get
up on line the past couple days and am playing catch-up. Please don't think I'm
trying to ignore you either on the scanning instructions -- I just haven't had
much time for the 'puter lately, except for a blurb here and there -- and this
listing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Looks like you must have missed my 2nd post on this A.B. listing (I posted 3
messages for this list), as you missed a bunch of 85' cars. Please go back and
read my 2nd post covering more 85' cars. Other pertinent information there too.
I also don't see a 65' Baltimore and
 Ohio car listing (maybe
I missed it?). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10388
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Mantua TALGO train motor/drive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the pics, Jim. I only just noticed this post while cleaning out my inbox.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
That MU-1 drive is quite a bit more substantial than the MU-2. A much larger magnet, completely enclosed brushes and brush holder, and put together with screws instead of rivets. I'm guessing it was a smoother performer as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nelson, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Here are pictures of the Mantua motor and drive used in the Mantua TALGO train. I let it up to you to decide if it is similar to the MU-2 Mantua or a fore runner ( Maybe this would be the MU-1 ? )
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       It was easy to take out. Two small screws, one on each side of the body,much like later Mantua that had a slit on the side and the trucks snapped into that.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Hope it helps 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10389
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Can anybody ID this steamer?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> David H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     I should have read the write-up for the engine you would like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> identified. The part saying gears on the back of the drivers. Leads me 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to believe Fleischmann.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     I hope Gerold Eckl is following this too. Being across the pond in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Austria he might have a better handle on checking this out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     I will still follow up on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim and David,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
dont think its of European orgin... at least not Fleischmann.... those 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Fleischmann locos that were sold in the USA typically had an German 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
outline, with only a few details changed ( smokebox, pilot,...) to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
camouflage their orgin. No clue on this one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Remember Fleischmann did US versions of the BR 01  4-6-2, a BR 42 2-4-2 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and a branchline 2-6-0 ...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10390
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Sampson Passemger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                             I 
am about to confuse the Sampson passenger car story.  I'm sending a number 
of pictures to help illustrate what I am about to write. Hoping my one finger 
for typing can last till I write all these facts and questions. I think it best 
to read entire story before you answer and not pull one statement out to 
cite.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        The first picture is just 
to show I am drawing information from a number of Sampson passenger cars and the 
paperwork in them.  They include full size corrugated, "shorty" corrugated 
and full size Smooth passenger cars for an empire Builder set. I'm not citing 
any ads from books or catalogs just what Sampson wrote on the 
plans.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Let me write a 
statement here from the plans that is word for word  "We now have two 
complete trains. One with corrugated sides and roof (7 cars) and the new GN 
Empire Builder with smooth sides and roof (8 cars)". (First I have to ask a 
question. Did anybody mention the smooth side cars by Sampson or did I miss that 
?  ). Talking about only full size not shorties.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         Now as to the number of 
each cars produced. Right above this statement is a list with the types of 
corrugated and smooth side cars (Only talking the full size cars)  
available. This list, using Sampson numbers, has 8 corrugated full size 
passenger cars, SL-1 to SL-8 (Remember the statement I cited said 7 cars). This 
list also shows 9 smooth side passenger cars  SL-100 - SL 108 (Remember the 
statement I cited said 8 smooth sided cars).  I think it odd that Sampson, 
on the same sheet of plans,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     has two different statements only a paragraph 
apart.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        On to any other thing. I have 
found two types of ends (picture shown) in Sampson boxes. I'm talking both types 
of full size and the corrugated "shorties" now. It doesn't seem to matter that 
one type was for the corrugated and one for the smooth sided cars. Some cars 
have one type, some cars have the other type. (Again I have found the two types 
of ends in boxes containing the same style of car.    
This has me confused.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        The picture of a completed 
corrugated Sampson passenger car has two purposes. One, this car has the Smooth 
ends ( No door detail) unlike others having the end with the door detail. The 
second thing is just to show the unique diaphragms Sampson used on their cars. 
It came as a little rubber bellows type that reminds me of a balloon that hadn't 
been blown up since it had a tiny end on it when the diaphragms were made.You 
cut this off before you installed them. I have found some of these in excellent 
shape and others hard and cracked (useless). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       I'm not even going to get into the 
Shorties. To many facts already. Will be interested in any discussion, any 
mistakes I made typing, any missed  point in previous thread about 
Sampson.   Have a ball.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim  (my head is spinning)  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10391
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Can anybody ID this steamer?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold, David H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            
Thanks Gerold for being quick to respond. I was thinking that only the 
frame /drive might be Fleischmann because of the gears on the back of the 
drivers. At this point I'm not even sure any of the three pieces go with the 
other.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 3:16 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Can anybody ID 
  this steamer?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > David H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I 
  should have read the write-up for the engine you would like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  identified. The part saying gears on the back of the drivers. Leads me 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > to believe Fleischmann.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I hope Gerold Eckl is 
  following this too. Being across the pond in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Austria he might have a 
  better handle on checking this out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I will still follow up on 
  it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim and David,

                                                                                                                                                                                    dont think its of European orgin... at 
  least not Fleischmann. ... those 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Fleischmann locos that were sold in 
  the USA typically had an German 
                                                                                                                                                                                    outline, with only a few details changed ( 
  smokebox, pilot,...) to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    camouflage their orgin. No clue on this 
  one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Remember Fleischmann did US versions of the BR 01 4-6-2, a BR 42 2-4-2 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    and a branchline 2-6-0 ...

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10392
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    On the ends.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I am guessing the ones with the door detail held the open end of the diaphram, and the smooth end prevented the diaphram from "catching" on anything, thereby tearing or derailing the car.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I would have further guessed that other than the obs, there would have been one of each in a kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >          I am about to confuse the Sampson passenger car story.  I'm sending a number of pictures to help illustrate what I am about to write. Hoping my one finger for typing can last till I write all these facts and questions. I think it best to read entire story before you answer and not pull one statement out to cite.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     The first picture is just to show I am drawing information from a number of Sampson passenger cars and the paperwork in them.  They include full size corrugated, "shorty" corrugated and full size Smooth passenger cars for an empire Builder set. I'm not citing any ads from books or catalogs just what Sampson wrote on the plans.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Let me write a statement here from the plans that is word for word  "We now have two complete trains. One with corrugated sides and roof (7 cars) and the new GN Empire Builder with smooth sides and roof (8 cars)". (First I have to ask a question. Did anybody mention the smooth side cars by Sampson or did I miss that ?  ). Talking about only full size not shorties.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      Now as to the number of each cars produced. Right above this statement is a list with the types of corrugated and smooth side cars (Only talking the full size cars)  available. This list, using Sampson numbers, has 8 corrugated full size passenger cars, SL-1 to SL-8 (Remember the statement I cited said 7 cars). This list also shows 9 smooth side passenger cars  SL-100 - SL 108 (Remember the statement I cited said 8 smooth sided cars).  I think it odd that Sampson, on the same sheet of plans,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  has two different statements only a paragraph apart.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     On to any other thing. I have found two types of ends (picture shown) in Sampson boxes. I'm talking both types of full size and the corrugated "shorties" now. It doesn't seem to matter that one type was for the corrugated and one for the smooth sided cars. Some cars have one type, some cars have the other type. (Again I have found the two types of ends in boxes containing the same style of car.    This has me confused.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     The picture of a completed corrugated Sampson passenger car has two purposes. One, this car has the Smooth ends ( No door detail) unlike others having the end with the door detail. The second thing is just to show the unique diaphragms Sampson used on their cars. It came as a little rubber bellows type that reminds me of a balloon that hadn't been blown up since it had a tiny end on it when the diaphragms were made.You cut this off before you installed them. I have found some of these in excellent shape and others hard and cracked (useless). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    I'm not even going to get into the Shorties. To many facts already. Will be interested in any discussion, any mistakes I made typing, any missed  point in previous thread about Sampson.   Have a ball.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                    Jim  (my head is spinning)  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10393
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Can anybody ID this steamer?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The statement that the boiler is plastic makes me think MDC (later) or Lionel, but the slope-back looks zamac.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Did you see the Mantua coupler on the rear of the engine frame?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Like, the chassis was a tank loco?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Check my other listings for more NOS Athearn."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ain't Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Even the boiler is wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Somewhere I have seen a valve gear hanger like that, can't recall where.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mix of unrelated bits.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Gerold, David H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         Thanks Gerold for being quick to respond. I was thinking that only the frame /drive might be Fleischmann because of the gears on the back of the drivers. At this point I'm not even sure any of the three pieces go with the other.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: Gerold Eckl 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 3:16 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Can anybody ID this steamer?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > David H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I should have read the write-up for the engine you would like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > identified. The part saying gears on the back of the drivers. Leads me 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > to believe Fleischmann.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I hope Gerold Eckl is following this too. Being across the pond in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Austria he might have a better handle on checking this out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I will still follow up on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Jim and David,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   dont think its of European orgin... at least not Fleischmann.... those 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Fleischmann locos that were sold in the USA typically had an German 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   outline, with only a few details changed ( smokebox, pilot,...) to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   camouflage their orgin. No clue on this one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Remember Fleischmann did US versions of the BR 01 4-6-2, a BR 42 2-4-2 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   and a branchline 2-6-0 ...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10394
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                             
Just to  clarify how the diaphragms were made. They had no open end. Both 
sides opposite the bellows like shape were one complete continuous 
piece
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
Also I have not found one of each type in a kit. There has always been a pair of 
the same type in the kits. There is a slight difference in design / 
shape of the bottom of these two types end pieces
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          What you suggest 
would be a good idea if one end of the diaphragm was open. In fact what you 
suggest is a good idea if the diaphragm / bellows is big enough / wide 
enough to touch both cars. I'm filing that idea in the back of my mind 
for future thought. Making one end stationary to one car and the other end free 
but touching the other car might be useful. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 4:09 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson 
  Passemger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    On the ends.
                                                                                                                                                                                    I am guessing the ones with the door detail held the open 
  end of the diaphram, and the smooth end prevented the diaphram from "catching" 
  on anything, thereby tearing or derailing the car.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I would have further 
  guessed that other than the obs, there would have been one of each in a 
  kit.

                                                                                                                                                                                    > I am about to confuse the Sampson passenger car story. I'm 
  sending a number of pictures to help illustrate what I am about to write. 
  Hoping my one finger for typing can last till I write all these facts and 
  questions. I think it best to read entire story before you answer and not pull 
  one statement out to cite.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The first picture is just to show 
  I am drawing information from a number of Sampson passenger cars and the 
  paperwork in them. They include full size corrugated, "shorty" corrugated and 
  full size Smooth passenger cars for an empire Builder set. I'm not citing any 
  ads from books or catalogs just what Sampson wrote on the plans.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Let me write a statement here from the plans that is word for word 
  "We now have two complete trains. One with corrugated sides and roof (7 cars) 
  and the new GN Empire Builder with smooth sides and roof (8 cars)". (First I 
  have to ask a question. Did anybody mention the smooth side cars by Sampson or 
  did I miss that ? ). Talking about only full size not shorties.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Now as to the number of each cars produced. Right above this 
  statement is a list with the types of corrugated and smooth side cars (Only 
  talking the full size cars) available. This list, using Sampson numbers, has 8 
  corrugated full size passenger cars, SL-1 to SL-8 (Remember the statement I 
  cited said 7 cars). This list also shows 9 smooth side passenger cars SL-100 - 
  SL 108 (Remember the statement I cited said 8 smooth sided cars). I think it 
  odd that Sampson, on the same sheet of plans,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > has two different 
  statements only a paragraph apart.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > On to any other 
  thing. I have found two types of ends (picture shown) in Sampson boxes. I'm 
  talking both types of full size and the corrugated "shorties" now. It doesn't 
  seem to matter that one type was for the corrugated and one for the smooth 
  sided cars. Some cars have one type, some cars have the other type. (Again I 
  have found the two types of ends in boxes containing the same style of car. 
  This has me confused.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The picture of a completed corrugated 
  Sampson passenger car has two purposes. One, this car has the Smooth ends ( No 
  door detail) unlike others having the end with the door detail. The second 
  thing is just to show the unique diaphragms Sampson used on their cars. It 
  came as a little rubber bellows type that reminds me of a balloon that hadn't 
  been blown up since it had a tiny end on it when the diaphragms were made.You 
  cut this off before you installed them. I have found some of these in 
  excellent shape and others hard and cracked (useless). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'm 
  not even going to get into the Shorties. To many facts already. Will be 
  interested in any discussion, any mistakes I made typing, any missed point in 
  previous thread about Sampson. Have a ball.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim (my head is 
  spinning) H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10395
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: HOSC&H-SIG
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    If Dave agrees to having it available electronically, I'd be willing to help 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
get it there.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Russ Shiel" <rshiel01@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 11:45 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Coming out of the woodwork in response to Ray W's observations, I plead 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
guilty to 'occasional'...being in the 'other' hemisphere I always seem to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
come in on the tail end of a thread, or don't check my inbox often enough, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and am overwhelmed when I finally do...! But I must say to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
regulars...'keep it up!' Us lurkers get a great deal from even the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
incidental back and forth!!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
In relation to the HOSC&H thread, I only found out about 'The Reporting 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mark' and Dave Spanagel's marathon effort to keep it in print at about the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
time he'd decided to retire as editor. He kindly agreed to copy the entire 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
run of TRM for me, and a carton duly arrived, including the index to vols 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
1-15, and Dave's listing of card-sided cars and manufacturers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
'The Reporting Mark' is a wonderful compendium of information on the early 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
manufacturers and their products, much of which is coming around again via 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
contributors to vintageHO (some of whom were members of the HOSC&H group), 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and the dedicated folks who maintain websites such as HOSeeker.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Of the original HOSC&H members, has anyone asked Dave S. if he would be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
interested in having 'TRM' available electronically? This would ensure the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
content is not lost, however Dave holds the copyright...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Back into the woodwork...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Russ in Adelaide
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, 2 May, 2009 3:53:12 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
You may have something there, Don. The "bulletin" type of publication on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
HOSC&H SIG did bring it all together, whereas here the facts are often 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
scattered. The Files section here does help organize things though. What I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
was getting at though, was that the subjects started by the core few (on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
HOSC&H) usually brought many other occasional contributors out of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
woodwork, writing in what they had in their collections on these same 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
subjects and adding what were sometimes key bits of information on a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
manufacturer that none of the rest of us knew about, and at the same time 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
got them involved. I just wish some of the lurkers here would give some 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
input so that we know what manufacturers would be of most interest here, to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
As for content, even though there may be quiet spells -- and posting may be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
hot and cold at times, when it does get busy, it's almost hard to keep up 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with if you skip a day -- like I just did. I wasn't able to get up on line 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
yesterday, but I noticed there had to be at least a couple dozen posts. Just 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
getting caught up now. Noticed also, that during the past two days, there 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
were probably about 16 or so different posters, about have of them regulars 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and half occasional posters -- I was just curious and scanned over them 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
quickly to get some idea of the number who are more active. Those hugh 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
groups you belong to must not have much different activity at all, if only 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
that few people bother getting involved. I wouldn't care if some lurker here 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
just had a handful of Varney cars; at least it would be a starting point to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
know where their interest lies, and to be able to continue on that topic 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
knowing I'd be adding to that interest of theirs. Well, have to plunge
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 into the email pile (LOL). Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Actually, the percentage of participation here is rather high for an
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> internet group. I am in groups that have 2000+ members, and only 3 or 4
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> actually participate.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have no problem with esoteric discussions. If someone isn't interested 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> that particular topic they can just skip over it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The only real disadvantage here over the kind of group you had is that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> tidbits of information are widely scattered, where your quarterly 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> brought them all together.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@ ...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@.. .>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:08 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: HOSC&H-SIG
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Steve, In theory, it wouldn't be a bad idea at all, even if we could get
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > around Dave Spanagel having copyrighted it. But in practice,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > unfortunately I see major problems in the concept of this, if you mean 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > have such a group on line -- although I hope I'm wrong. Those days, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > there
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > were no internet groups, so anyone who had any interest in the group and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > in collecting got involved by sending in some information about items in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > their collection as they KNEW the other members would be just as
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > interested -- and I'm not meaning that most of us here wouldn't be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > interested.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > But those days, MANY more people got involved, some with writing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > complete
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > articles on a manufacturer, and some just sending in a line or two of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > interest, sometimes only of one item. These couple of lines may have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > been
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > of some obscure manufacturer (like Sterling, for instance, which W Jay 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > bought up), or maybe just a "new" car side number for Globe or Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > metal which was previously unknown to most of us. With this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > participation
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > and interest, all these different tid-bits that were published quarterly
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > gave us all some idea of direction in which most of the membership was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > only too eager to see more of -- so those who were more active knew what
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > to send in next to keep the interests up for the rest of us, as it was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > an
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ongoing thing; the added information served to feed still more 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > information
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > on what was of interest to most of the members.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Here, I have no idea of what the membership is interested in, and only
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > take clues by what happens to be brought up (sometimes only mentioned as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > passing name in a discussion). Hoping that there's more interest in a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > topic, since it had been mentioned, I venture to post more on it -- but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > still don't know what the interests of most of the other members are, on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > here. We seem to have only a comparatively core few of contributers on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > here (not a criticism), which I fail to understand when I'm sure most of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > our 431 members must have at least something they've collected -- or I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > don't think they'd be here (maybe I'm wrong on that?). Without
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > participation, such as we had in the HOSC&H SIG, knowledge isn't being
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > shared nor is the interest in these items.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > There are innumerable topics I could bring up, just from what I have in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > my
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > collection, but I have no way of knowing if it would be of interest to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > anyone else here, as there's no general feel for what topics motivate
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > anyone else. Fortunately, Jim H. has been taking the initiative to post
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > what he hopes would be of interest to many, but it seems to be only of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > interest to a few, from lack of feedback I see. I can understand, that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > not every member had Dallas Modelcraft or Garco in their collections, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > but
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I know I'd be interested in whatever any other member may have. To start
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > up another version of the HOSC&H with a limited amount of participation
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > would probably see it fail, IMHO. Best, Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
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Easier. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10396
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: More hobby shops - was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Gingerbread Shop closed a few years ago. Bob is only online now. Only two 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
hobby shops I can think off in Easton area, Hobby Hangout, closed last year 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and Trains & Lanes off route 33.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 1:15 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Jay,  Could have run into you some time at MRPO, although being a bit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> far for me, I never got up there too often.  I know Ray Threllfall for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> about 29 years now, though.  He's also a rail fan of sorts, especially of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the NYS&W -- when he has the time.  The Rich's Hobbytowne I mentioned 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> being in Parsippany, was actually the one you're referring to, in Pine 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Brook.  I got the names of the towns mixed up.  Rich's was in that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ex-church -- which was displayed on a promotional box car too.  There was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> another hobby shop up the road (Route 46) a piece, in Parsippany, by the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> name of 20th Century Hobbies.  They opened shortly after Rich's closed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I believe some H0SC&H members sent in pics and write ups of at least some 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Varney promotional cars, but I couldn't tell you which ones.  I'm missing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> some of my copies of thw Reporting Mark, but will scan through what I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> first chance I get.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I've dropped in to the Gingerbread Shop myself from time to time, but only 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> when I was out that way on I-78.  Nice place, he has everything.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> remember him having a Nickle Plate Products Reading Crusader engine (for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> about $600), and the 5 car set (for another $600).  REALLY nice, but too 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> heavy for me.  I think that's where I saw a factory painted, also Nickel 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Plate Products NYO&W mountain (Mountaineer) engine #405 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (semi-streamlined).  Another day that I almost died of thirst, drooling. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> There was a hobby shop just outside of Easton. PA (Jim may know of it). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Have no idea if it's still there; it was a bit small, but he had good 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> stuff.  Again, I only stopped there if I was in the vicinity -- and I'd 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> only be in the vicinity if I was on my way railfanning, like out to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Allentown.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> There used to be a fair number of shops in this area (Bergen County) about 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 20 years ago, but now there's only a few left.  One place I'll never 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> forget when I was a kid was a place called Hobby Land in Hackensack, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> now I'm going back into the '40's.  Talk about having stuff, they had 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> EVERYTHING on earth.  If it was made, they had it.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Hi Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I suspect our paths have crossed, especially at MRPO.  During slow 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> afternoons, I have been know to bring some vintage HO gem for show and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> tell there, too!  For some reason, my dad did not care for Rich's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Hobbytowne on RT 46 when I was a kid in my American Flyer days, but a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> couple of years ago, I found a promotional Rich's Hobbytowne "Tri-O'Rama" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Varney reefer in its original Varney Aerotrain box!  Decorated nicely by 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Varney, it sometimes can be seen with an NYSME boxcar in my Carstens RR 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Museum Special. BTW, did anyone at the Vintage HO SIG ever compile a list 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> of Varney's promptional cars?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I do remember Rich's later Pine Brook (ex-Church) and Oakland shops, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> not the other one mentioned.  For a while before Ray's MRPO, went to Bob 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Fisher's Gingerbred Stop in Warren or Mt. Bethel, but that was a 50 mile 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> trip, almost as far as The Model RR Shop in Dunnellen which was too far! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I have heard about some of the good shops mentioned by others, but out of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> my area. W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Hi Jay,  It occurred to me that we may have crossed paths at some time. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > I also used to visit Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, both in the old store and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > then in the newly (then) remodelled store.  Do you remember Rich's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Hobbytown in Parsippany -- right off Rt. 46?  He later opened another 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > store in Oakland (NJ, for those wondering if I meant CA).  Back then, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > there were a lot of hobby shops around.  Now you have to travel some to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > get to one.  I guess you now go to Ray Threllfall's Model Railway Post 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Office Supply in Greenwood Lake?  I believe I saw where he was thinking 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > of retiring, great guy.  Best,  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > > John H., Yes, three grins from me, and probably a fourth as those 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > > black grease pencil discount price markings look just like the ones 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > > made by "Joe" at Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, NJ in the 1960's, the go-to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > > spot for model railroading supplies in suburban Northern NJ back 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > > then! It was not too difficult to convince my dad to take a 14 mile 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > > drive over there a couple of times a month, even if it was only for a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > > headlight casting and decal!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > > > Here are two photos of the Aerotrain boxes just for grins
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > > > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10397
						From: Bill DeFoe
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don, oljoeoh, and others,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Bob Mares built one of those Mantua layouts on a hat and it was worn by his wife, Millie Mares, at an NMRA national convention.  I don't know the exact year as I wasn't there, and I can't say if this was the hat used in the Mantua ad or if Bob just copied the idea.  I understand it caused quite a stir at the convention.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don - I DO recall seeing that ad.  The Athearn "hat"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> was one of those big floppy looking brown mens hats (early
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 50's style if you know what I mean).  Can't remember if
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> it was actually "worn" by someone in what I saw.  I found
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> some of the Whitcomb stuff but I know I have more.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Joe O'Loughlin  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: "oljoeoh" <oljoe@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 7:27 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Don....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > The "hat" was Athearn, the "Silver Dollar" was Penn Line.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Irv Athearn, I believe,  did the "hat" in response to the Silver
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Dollar.  Irv used the "Hustler" and Penn Line used
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > the Whitcomb.  The "Hustler" wheelbase was too long
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > to do the Silver Dollar.  The Whitcomb, on the other hand,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > worked well.  I've got some info about both of these
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > interesting items.  Will dig it out if there is some
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > interest in the topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > This time I know I wasn't wrong <G>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Here's the Mantua hat.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > don.dellmann@
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10398
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
First, those molded bellows diaphragms are very nice. I came across a pair in a parts lot years ago and was amazed at how fresh and "live" they were.  Like you, have since found some "dead" too, probably different batches of rubber quality or storage conditions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Here is what my instructions say about them: "The diaphragms are of the standard type (as I guess opposed to full width streamliner type -my note) to allow use of sharper curves and are best for practical operation when close coupled."  I wonder if they were an exclusive Sampson diaphragm or were outsourced from another model firm?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Second, My one car, called a "22-Room Cabin Car" on the light yellow box - No Kit #,  has plain sheet aluminum(?) ends, no detail.  Will check the ads again as I seem to remember their stating somewhere "improved cast ends" but not sure, looking at so many cars and ads now - I will recheck late tonight.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Third, I must have an early kit as no kit # on box, this is what instructions say about other kits "Watch for other styles. We will make an entire train including an observation."  So at the time my kit was manufactured, Sampson did not have one complete corrugated side train set yet. I have seen notation in their ads or HO Seeker paper about an smooth sided Empire Builder train set, will also find that notation for you late tonight.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Fourth, In regard to corrosion, they advised after polishing the car that the "Body should be coated with 410M clear glass, clear dope or some other substance."  So it seems they were aware that cars would soon tarnish and later corrode if left "natural."
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim, I had not known much about all these different vintage passenger cars before, it has been fun following your collection, finding out more information and seeing them documented.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          I am about to confuse the Sampson passenger car story.  I'm sending a number of pictures to help illustrate what I am about to write. Hoping my one finger for typing can last till I write all these facts and questions. I think it best to read entire story before you answer and not pull one statement out to cite.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     The first picture is just to show I am drawing information from a number of Sampson passenger cars and the paperwork in them.  They include full size corrugated, "shorty" corrugated and full size Smooth passenger cars for an empire Builder set. I'm not citing any ads from books or catalogs just what Sampson wrote on the plans.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Let me write a statement here from the plans that is word for word  "We now have two complete trains. One with corrugated sides and roof (7 cars) and the new GN Empire Builder with smooth sides and roof (8 cars)". (First I have to ask a question. Did anybody mention the smooth side cars by Sampson or did I miss that ?  ). Talking about only full size not shorties.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      Now as to the number of each cars produced. Right above this statement is a list with the types of corrugated and smooth side cars (Only talking the full size cars)  available. This list, using Sampson numbers, has 8 corrugated full size passenger cars, SL-1 to SL-8 (Remember the statement I cited said 7 cars). This list also shows 9 smooth side passenger cars  SL-100 - SL 108 (Remember the statement I cited said 8 smooth sided cars).  I think it odd that Sampson, on the same sheet of plans,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  has two different statements only a paragraph apart.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     On to any other thing. I have found two types of ends (picture shown) in Sampson boxes. I'm talking both types of full size and the corrugated "shorties" now. It doesn't seem to matter that one type was for the corrugated and one for the smooth sided cars. Some cars have one type, some cars have the other type. (Again I have found the two types of ends in boxes containing the same style of car.    This has me confused.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     The picture of a completed corrugated Sampson passenger car has two purposes. One, this car has the Smooth ends ( No door detail) unlike others having the end with the door detail. The second thing is just to show the unique diaphragms Sampson used on their cars. It came as a little rubber bellows type that reminds me of a balloon that hadn't been blown up since it had a tiny end on it when the diaphragms were made.You cut this off before you installed them. I have found some of these in excellent shape and others hard and cracked (useless). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    I'm not even going to get into the Shorties. To many facts already. Will be interested in any discussion, any mistakes I made typing, any missed  point in previous thread about Sampson.   Have a ball.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                    Jim  (my head is spinning)  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10399
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Sampson Motor Car Ends
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Can someone please scan and post images of the Sampson motorcar ends ???
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Pictures of collected ones would be nice to see. But since most of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
those parts rotted away, I doubt I'll get to see those.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     On May 1, 2009, at 9:21 PM, Denny Anspach wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> A possibly significant clue as to  why the Sampson motor car may have
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> left the scene early is the fact that although the Sampson bodies were
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> magnesium, the ends were very poor quality Zamac with a very high
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> zincpest attrition rate- a fatal attribute which probably did not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> spare the cast shaped ends.............. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10400
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    It wasn't really a record, but a stamped steel disc made to look like one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I had one--lost in a move or something.   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 4:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: English Alco 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10401
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Political incorrectness WAS: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The trademark phrase would come after an ending-of-the-show joke  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
passed between them.......
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     On May 2, 2009, at 7:47 AM, erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I still fail to understand what all the laughing was all about after  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> they said, "Hey Pancho!" . . . "Hey Ceeesco!" . . . "AHHAHAHAHAHA,"  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> as they rode off into the sunset.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Speaking of "political incorrectness", there is an interesting John  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Allen photograph based Varney MR back cover ad featuring John  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Allen's "Sorfeetz brothers" and other members of the "Sorfeetz  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> gang".  The cartoon-like text bubbles say things like "Ques pasa?  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> The boss ees counting, Pancho."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> You can see a scan of the ad I provided to Jeffrey Witts G&D pages  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> at:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/VARN_AD-19520800-000-300_70.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> This is a comment I made to the the www.gdlines.com folks about  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> this ad:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> *******************************************************
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ... The Aug 1952 ad would probably be a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> bit "politically incorrect" today. But at the time, the "Cisco Kid"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> television show (1950-1956) was extremely popular and most folks
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> probably wouldn't have given it a second thought. At at the end of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> each Cisco Kid episode, Cisco said "Ohhh Pancho!" and Pancho
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> said "Ohhh Ceeesco!". This may have been the inspiration for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> accented english in the ad.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ******************************************************* 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10402
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Political incorrectness WAS: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I used to listen to them as a kid--As I remember the CK was introduced as " 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
O. Henry's Robin Hood of the old west----"  The actor who played the CK 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(Leo Carrillo) has a Calif. State Beach park named for him.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 4:58 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Political incorrectness WAS: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The trademark phrase would come after an ending-of-the-show joke
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> passed between them.......
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> On May 2, 2009, at 7:47 AM, erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I still fail to understand what all the laughing was all about after
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> they said, "Hey Pancho!" . . . "Hey Ceeesco!" . . . "AHHAHAHAHAHA,"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> as they rode off into the sunset.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Speaking of "political incorrectness", there is an interesting John
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Allen photograph based Varney MR back cover ad featuring John
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Allen's "Sorfeetz brothers" and other members of the "Sorfeetz
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> gang".  The cartoon-like text bubbles say things like "Ques pasa?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> The boss ees counting, Pancho."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> You can see a scan of the ad I provided to Jeffrey Witts G&D pages
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> at:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/VARN_AD-19520800-000-300_70.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> This is a comment I made to the the www.gdlines.com folks about
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> this ad:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> *******************************************************
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> ... The Aug 1952 ad would probably be a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> bit "politically incorrect" today. But at the time, the "Cisco Kid"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> television show (1950-1956) was extremely popular and most folks
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> probably wouldn't have given it a second thought. At at the end of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> each Cisco Kid episode, Cisco said "Ohhh Pancho!" and Pancho
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> said "Ohhh Ceeesco!". This may have been the inspiration for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> accented english in the ad.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> *******************************************************
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
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No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10403
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Vintage ACF models
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Paul Moore made a flexible ACF railcar kit with a formed posterboard  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
end and sides.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I say flexible since the drawings show making in single-ended, double- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
ended, freight-only, combine, all passenger, even all-electric........
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
You'll see the formed end on the lower right corner of the image.......
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     On May 2, 2009, at 9:01 AM, erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi again Jim,  As you may be aware, Sampson was the only  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> manufacturer working in any material that produced an ACF end,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> unless there was a brass model produced of an ACF rail diesel car --  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> which I don't believe so, as best I know.  The Susquehanna's two  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> double-end ACF cars (#1001 & #1002) have ALWAYS been favorites of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> mine, which I always looked forward to watching back in the early  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1940's whenever my mother would take me along for shopping in  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hackensack (where the NYS&W's main line went through town. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10404
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage ACF models
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Mike B.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Paul Moore (Adrian, Michigan) was in business for decades, and besides his standard traction and trolley kits and plans, had some interesting railcars as well.  In the late 1950s, he had kits and plans to build an interesting variety of gas-electrics, etc, on the Athearn Hi-F F-7 and Hustler chassis.  Never knew of this ACF Railcar kit or plan sheet, it looks like it is from his earlier days, perhaps the late 1940's?   Is there a database of Paul Moore kits and plans anywhere?  I saw an incomplete plan list and drawings on the web somewhere.  Thanks for showing this.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Paul Moore made a flexible ACF railcar kit with a formed posterboard  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> end and sides.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I say flexible since the drawings show making in single-ended, double- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ended, freight-only, combine, all passenger, even all-electric........
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You'll see the formed end on the lower right corner of the image.......
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> On May 2, 2009, at 9:01 AM, erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi again Jim,  As you may be aware, Sampson was the only  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > manufacturer working in any material that produced an ACF end,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > unless there was a brass model produced of an ACF rail diesel car --  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > which I don't believe so, as best I know.  The Susquehanna's two  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > double-end ACF cars (#1001 & #1002) have ALWAYS been favorites of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > mine, which I always looked forward to watching back in the early  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 1940's whenever my mother would take me along for shopping in  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hackensack (where the NYS&W's main line went through town.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10405
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim,  Got lots to do at the moment, but just wanted to end some confusion on Sampson while I saw this, so as not to leave people hanging (I'll be back later - I hope).  At first, I thought I remembered doing a spread sheet with Chuck H. filing it, but it must have only been a post I made on Sampson back in the past.  Then, I thought that W Jay W just posted a list within the past few days when replying to you, but couldn't find it -- lots (almost too much) stuff going on here recently to keep up with.  In looking over your counts of 85' kits, both corregated and smooth side, I see that you have as many smooth-side as is known to me -- NINE.  But, you're only listing 8 corregated side full length passenger cars; you are missing THREE that I know of.  I'll list them all (85' corregated-side) just to end any confusion at least on these.  I viewed your attachment for Sampson, but there was no list to account for catalog numbers -- car types:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sampson -- 85' Corregated-Side Streamline Passenger Cars --
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-1 --- Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-2 --- 22 Roomette - Pullman
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-3 --- Parlor Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-4 --- Baggage - Tavern - Lounge
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-5 --- Baggage Mail
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-6 --- Diner 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-7 --- Tavern - Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-8 --- Vista Dome Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-9 --- Vista Dome Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-10 -- Club - Lounge - Baggage
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-20 -- 6 Bedroom/10 Roomette - Pullman
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-201 - Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-204 - Baggage - Coach 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I've understood Sampson had planned to produce more, but I don't have anything further on them to verify anything else.  You'll notice they jumped to an SL-200 Series (still 85' corregated cars), possibly to avoid conflict in their numbers since they already had SL-11 though SL-19 designated for 60' corregated shorties and SL-100 Series designated for 85' smooth-side cars.  They did have SL-211 (Shorty Combine), SL-212 (Shorty Coach), etc., on, already designated for 60' smooth-side cars though, so they couldn't have added any more than 9 more cars to the two SL-200 Series I've already mentioned.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Since there's no actual listing of the 85' Smooth-Side Streamlined cars, I thought I'd list them here as well, for the benefit of all:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sampson -- 85' Smooth-Side Streamlined Passenger Cars --
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-100 -- Mail - Bagge
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-101 -- Day-Nite Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-102 -- Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-103 -- Lounge-Dormitory
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-104 -- Diner
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-105 -- Bedroom/Roomette - Pullman
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-106 -- Bedroom/Roomette - Pullman
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-107 -- Observation - Lounge
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-108 -- Vista Dome Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
It should be noted that the Smooth-Side kits could be ordered factory painted for 50 cents extra, in addition to their $3.75 list price.  I won't go into the 60' Shorties here, but will wait until your head stops spinning.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          I am about to confuse the Sampson passenger car story.  I'm sending a number of pictures to help illustrate what I am about to write. Hoping my one finger for typing can last till I write all these facts and questions. I think it best to read entire story before you answer and not pull one statement out to cite.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     The first picture is just to show I am drawing information from a number of Sampson passenger cars and the paperwork in them.  They include full size corrugated, "shorty" corrugated and full size Smooth passenger cars for an empire Builder set. I'm not citing any ads from books or catalogs just what Sampson wrote on the plans.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Let me write a statement here from the plans that is word for word  "We now have two complete trains. One with corrugated sides and roof (7 cars) and the new GN Empire Builder with smooth sides and roof (8 cars)". (First I have to ask a question. Did anybody mention the smooth side cars by Sampson or did I miss that ?  ). Talking about only full size not shorties.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      Now as to the number of each cars produced. Right above this statement is a list with the types of corrugated and smooth side cars (Only talking the full size cars)  available. This list, using Sampson numbers, has 8 corrugated full size passenger cars, SL-1 to SL-8 (Remember the statement I cited said 7 cars). This list also shows 9 smooth side passenger cars  SL-100 - SL 108 (Remember the statement I cited said 8 smooth sided cars).  I think it odd that Sampson, on the same sheet of plans,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  has two different statements only a paragraph apart.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     On to any other thing. I have found two types of ends (picture shown) in Sampson boxes. I'm talking both types of full size and the corrugated "shorties" now. It doesn't seem to matter that one type was for the corrugated and one for the smooth sided cars. Some cars have one type, some cars have the other type. (Again I have found the two types of ends in boxes containing the same style of car.    This has me confused.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     The picture of a completed corrugated Sampson passenger car has two purposes. One, this car has the Smooth ends ( No door detail) unlike others having the end with the door detail. The second thing is just to show the unique diaphragms Sampson used on their cars. It came as a little rubber bellows type that reminds me of a balloon that hadn't been blown up since it had a tiny end on it when the diaphragms were made.You cut this off before you installed them. I have found some of these in excellent shape and others hard and cracked (useless). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    I'm not even going to get into the Shorties. To many facts already. Will be interested in any discussion, any mistakes I made typing, any missed  point in previous thread about Sampson.   Have a ball.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                    Jim  (my head is spinning)  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10406
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray F W ,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       Thanks for the post. I just copied 
what Sampson had on the assembly sheets that I have. It might have come out 
before the cars you listed. They only went up to SL- 8 on the printed Sampson 
sheets. It did say they planned more especially if any certain type was wanted. 
It would be interesting (to me) to find dates when those cars you mentioned were 
made / added.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 8:38 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson 
  Passemger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, Got lots to do at the moment, but just wanted to end some confusion on 
  Sampson while I saw this, so as not to leave people hanging (I'll be back 
  later - I hope). At first, I thought I remembered doing a spread sheet with 
  Chuck H. filing it, but it must have only been a post I made on Sampson back 
  in the past. Then, I thought that W Jay W just posted a list within the past 
  few days when replying to you, but couldn't find it -- lots (almost too much) 
  stuff going on here recently to keep up with. In looking over your counts of 
  85' kits, both corregated and smooth side, I see that you have as many 
  smooth-side as is known to me -- NINE. But, you're only listing 8 corregated 
  side full length passenger cars; you are missing THREE that I know of. I'll 
  list them all (85' corregated-side) just to end any confusion at least on 
  these. I viewed your attachment for Sampson, but there was no list to account 
  for catalog numbers -- car types:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sampson -- 85' Corregated-Side 
  Streamline Passenger Cars --

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-1 --- Coach

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-2 --- 22 Roomette 
  - Pullman

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-3 --- Parlor Car

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-4 --- Baggage - Tavern - 
  Lounge

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-5 --- Baggage Mail

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-6 --- Diner 

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-7 --- 
  Tavern - Observation

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-8 --- Vista Dome Coach

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-9 --- Vista 
  Dome Observation

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-10 -- Club - Lounge - Baggage

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-20 -- 6 
  Bedroom/10 Roomette - Pullman

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-201 - Coach

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-204 - Baggage - 
  Coach 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I've understood Sampson had planned to produce more, but I don't 
  have anything further on them to verify anything else. You'll notice they 
  jumped to an SL-200 Series (still 85' corregated cars), possibly to avoid 
  conflict in their numbers since they already had SL-11 though SL-19 designated 
  for 60' corregated shorties and SL-100 Series designated for 85' smooth-side 
  cars. They did have SL-211 (Shorty Combine), SL-212 (Shorty Coach), etc., on, 
  already designated for 60' smooth-side cars though, so they couldn't have 
  added any more than 9 more cars to the two SL-200 Series I've already 
  mentioned. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Since there's no actual listing of the 85' Smooth-Side 
  Streamlined cars, I thought I'd list them here as well, for the benefit of 
  all:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sampson -- 85' Smooth-Side Streamlined Passenger Cars 
  --

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-100 -- Mail - Bagge

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-101 -- Day-Nite Coach

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-102 
  -- Coach

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-103 -- Lounge-Dormitory

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-104 -- 
  Diner

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-105 -- Bedroom/Roomette - Pullman

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-106 -- 
  Bedroom/Roomette - Pullman

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-107 -- Observation - Lounge

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-108 
  -- Vista Dome Coach

                                                                                                                                                                                    It should be noted that the Smooth-Side kits could 
  be ordered factory painted for 50 cents extra, in addition to their $3.75 list 
  price. I won't go into the 60' Shorties here, but will wait until your head 
  stops spinning. Ray F W

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I am about to 
  confuse the Sampson passenger car story. I'm sending a number of pictures to 
  help illustrate what I am about to write. Hoping my one finger for typing can 
  last till I write all these facts and questions. I think it best to read 
  entire story before you answer and not pull one statement out to cite.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The first picture is just to show I am drawing information from a 
  number of Sampson passenger cars and the paperwork in them. They include full 
  size corrugated, "shorty" corrugated and full size Smooth passenger cars for 
  an empire Builder set. I'm not citing any ads from books or catalogs just what 
  Sampson wrote on the plans.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Let me write a statement here 
  from the plans that is word for word "We now have two complete trains. One 
  with corrugated sides and roof (7 cars) and the new GN Empire Builder with 
  smooth sides and roof (8 cars)". (First I have to ask a question. Did anybody 
  mention the smooth side cars by Sampson or did I miss that ? ). Talking about 
  only full size not shorties.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Now as to the number of each 
  cars produced. Right above this statement is a list with the types of 
  corrugated and smooth side cars (Only talking the full size cars) available. 
  This list, using Sampson numbers, has 8 corrugated full size passenger cars, 
  SL-1 to SL-8 (Remember the statement I cited said 7 cars). This list also 
  shows 9 smooth side passenger cars SL-100 - SL 108 (Remember the statement I 
  cited said 8 smooth sided cars). I think it odd that Sampson, on the same 
  sheet of plans,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > has two different statements only a paragraph 
  apart.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > On to any other thing. I have found two types 
  of ends (picture shown) in Sampson boxes. I'm talking both types of full size 
  and the corrugated "shorties" now. It doesn't seem to matter that one type was 
  for the corrugated and one for the smooth sided cars. Some cars have one type, 
  some cars have the other type. (Again I have found the two types of ends in 
  boxes containing the same style of car. This has me confused.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  The picture of a completed corrugated Sampson passenger car has two purposes. 
  One, this car has the Smooth ends ( No door detail) unlike others having the 
  end with the door detail. The second thing is just to show the unique 
  diaphragms Sampson used on their cars. It came as a little rubber bellows type 
  that reminds me of a balloon that hadn't been blown up since it had a tiny end 
  on it when the diaphragms were made.You cut this off before you installed 
  them. I have found some of these in excellent shape and others hard and 
  cracked (useless). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'm not even going to get into the 
  Shorties. To many facts already. Will be interested in any discussion, any 
  mistakes I made typing, any missed point in previous thread about Sampson. 
  Have a ball.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim (my head is spinning) 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10407
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Political incorrectness WAS: English Alco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Actually, Duncan Renaldo played the Cisco Kid.  Leo Carrillo played Pancho. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
My former wife, as a little girl, was watching some parade with Leo Carrillo 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
marhcing in it and he walked over and gave her a little kiss.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chuck K.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Glenn476
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 5:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Political incorrectness WAS: English Alco
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I used to listen to them as a kid--As I remember the CK was introduced as "
                                                                                                                                                                                    
O. Henry's Robin Hood of the old west----" The actor who played the CK
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(Leo Carrillo) has a Calif. State Beach park named for him. gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
<SNIP> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10408
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 I just went checking some of my own paperwork that I sent to the HOseeker 
site. Each sheet that list the types of corrugated passenger cars has a 
different amount of types produced probably due to when a certain sheet was 
printed. The number 13 you cite probably the final total of types 
made. You will see, on  HOseeker,  Catalog 1948  Page 1 only 
goes up to the first 200 numbered car so I have to believe the others came 
after that. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm 
going to write a letter to Sampson telling them they should put the year printed 
on each sheet (tongue in cheek)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 8:38 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson 
  Passemger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, Got lots to do at the moment, but just wanted to end some confusion on 
  Sampson while I saw this, so as not to leave people hanging (I'll be back 
  later - I hope). At first, I thought I remembered doing a spread sheet with 
  Chuck H. filing it, but it must have only been a post I made on Sampson back 
  in the past. Then, I thought that W Jay W just posted a list within the past 
  few days when replying to you, but couldn't find it -- lots (almost too much) 
  stuff going on here recently to keep up with. In looking over your counts of 
  85' kits, both corregated and smooth side, I see that you have as many 
  smooth-side as is known to me -- NINE. But, you're only listing 8 corregated 
  side full length passenger cars; you are missing THREE that I know of. I'll 
  list them all (85' corregated-side) just to end any confusion at least on 
  these. I viewed your attachment for Sampson, but there was no list to account 
  for catalog numbers -- car types:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sampson -- 85' Corregated-Side 
  Streamline Passenger Cars --

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-1 --- Coach

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-2 --- 22 Roomette 
  - Pullman

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-3 --- Parlor Car

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-4 --- Baggage - Tavern - 
  Lounge

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-5 --- Baggage Mail

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-6 --- Diner 

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-7 --- 
  Tavern - Observation

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-8 --- Vista Dome Coach

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-9 --- Vista 
  Dome Observation

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-10 -- Club - Lounge - Baggage

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-20 -- 6 
  Bedroom/10 Roomette - Pullman

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-201 - Coach

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-204 - Baggage - 
  Coach 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I've understood Sampson had planned to produce more, but I don't 
  have anything further on them to verify anything else. You'll notice they 
  jumped to an SL-200 Series (still 85' corregated cars), possibly to avoid 
  conflict in their numbers since they already had SL-11 though SL-19 designated 
  for 60' corregated shorties and SL-100 Series designated for 85' smooth-side 
  cars. They did have SL-211 (Shorty Combine), SL-212 (Shorty Coach), etc., on, 
  already designated for 60' smooth-side cars though, so they couldn't have 
  added any more than 9 more cars to the two SL-200 Series I've already 
  mentioned. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Since there's no actual listing of the 85' Smooth-Side 
  Streamlined cars, I thought I'd list them here as well, for the benefit of 
  all:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sampson -- 85' Smooth-Side Streamlined Passenger Cars 
  --

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-100 -- Mail - Bagge

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-101 -- Day-Nite Coach

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-102 
  -- Coach

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-103 -- Lounge-Dormitory

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-104 -- 
  Diner

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-105 -- Bedroom/Roomette - Pullman

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-106 -- 
  Bedroom/Roomette - Pullman

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-107 -- Observation - Lounge

                                                                                                                                                                                    SL-108 
  -- Vista Dome Coach

                                                                                                                                                                                    It should be noted that the Smooth-Side kits could 
  be ordered factory painted for 50 cents extra, in addition to their $3.75 list 
  price. I won't go into the 60' Shorties here, but will wait until your head 
  stops spinning. Ray F W

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I am about to 
  confuse the Sampson passenger car story. I'm sending a number of pictures to 
  help illustrate what I am about to write. Hoping my one finger for typing can 
  last till I write all these facts and questions. I think it best to read 
  entire story before you answer and not pull one statement out to cite.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The first picture is just to show I am drawing information from a 
  number of Sampson passenger cars and the paperwork in them. They include full 
  size corrugated, "shorty" corrugated and full size Smooth passenger cars for 
  an empire Builder set. I'm not citing any ads from books or catalogs just what 
  Sampson wrote on the plans.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Let me write a statement here 
  from the plans that is word for word "We now have two complete trains. One 
  with corrugated sides and roof (7 cars) and the new GN Empire Builder with 
  smooth sides and roof (8 cars)". (First I have to ask a question. Did anybody 
  mention the smooth side cars by Sampson or did I miss that ? ). Talking about 
  only full size not shorties.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Now as to the number of each 
  cars produced. Right above this statement is a list with the types of 
  corrugated and smooth side cars (Only talking the full size cars) available. 
  This list, using Sampson numbers, has 8 corrugated full size passenger cars, 
  SL-1 to SL-8 (Remember the statement I cited said 7 cars). This list also 
  shows 9 smooth side passenger cars SL-100 - SL 108 (Remember the statement I 
  cited said 8 smooth sided cars). I think it odd that Sampson, on the same 
  sheet of plans,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > has two different statements only a paragraph 
  apart.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > On to any other thing. I have found two types 
  of ends (picture shown) in Sampson boxes. I'm talking both types of full size 
  and the corrugated "shorties" now. It doesn't seem to matter that one type was 
  for the corrugated and one for the smooth sided cars. Some cars have one type, 
  some cars have the other type. (Again I have found the two types of ends in 
  boxes containing the same style of car. This has me confused.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  The picture of a completed corrugated Sampson passenger car has two purposes. 
  One, this car has the Smooth ends ( No door detail) unlike others having the 
  end with the door detail. The second thing is just to show the unique 
  diaphragms Sampson used on their cars. It came as a little rubber bellows type 
  that reminds me of a balloon that hadn't been blown up since it had a tiny end 
  on it when the diaphragms were made.You cut this off before you installed 
  them. I have found some of these in excellent shape and others hard and 
  cracked (useless). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'm not even going to get into the 
  Shorties. To many facts already. Will be interested in any discussion, any 
  mistakes I made typing, any missed point in previous thread about Sampson. 
  Have a ball.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim (my head is spinning) 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10409
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage ACF models
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    You'll find many Paul Moore line-art catalogs and some other papers   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
here........
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.org/interurban.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'd like to see Paul Moore designs on Alco FA's for the Mainline power  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
units, as contemporary units. I  feel they would properly capture the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
looks of his designs that were meant for the old F-7's and have  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
suitable vintage power trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
We have newer and better Hustler sized HO switchers to use for the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
line of Little Scoots he designed. Also rather nice Bowser traction  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
drives for the rest of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
One of the late 40's catalogs details the two different widths of his  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
kits, the mainline and the traction kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Once I wrap up the loose ends from this car crash I was in.........  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
about another month. I'll just say that I have intentions of getting  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
my fleet of many Paul Moore types ready to build by the coming Fall  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
months.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     On May 2, 2009, at 7:26 PM, the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Mike B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Paul Moore (Adrian, Michigan) was in business for decades, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> besides his standard traction and trolley kits and plans, had some  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> interesting railcars as well.  In the late 1950s, he had kits and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> plans to build an interesting variety of gas-electrics, etc, on the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Athearn Hi-F F-7 and Hustler chassis.  Never knew of this ACF  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Railcar kit or plan sheet, it looks like it is from his earlier  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> days, perhaps the late 1940's?   Is there a database of Paul Moore  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> kits and plans anywhere?  I saw an incomplete plan list and drawings  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> on the web somewhere.  Thanks for showing this.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Paul Moore made a flexible ACF railcar kit with a formed posterboard
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> end and sides.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I say flexible since the drawings show making in single-ended,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> double-
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ended, freight-only, combine, all passenger, even all- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> electric........
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> You'll see the formed end on the lower right corner of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> image....... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10410
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: "Reporting Marks," available anywhere?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Well, that is unfortunate that it is no longer available.  I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
pretty narrow interests, but I can get pretty intense about them, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(wife calls it obsession).  So, then, I like many, become very hungry 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
for any history and answers we can lay our hands on.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Perhaps the comment Steve W. made about doing the RM electronically 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
can flower.  Sounds as if some great friendships have been made; what 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a wonderful thing that is in it's own right.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 05:29 AM 5/2/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >Dennis,  I'm afraid that "The Reporting Mark" is not available 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>anywhere.  It's a real shame too, as it was compiled by many of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>most knowledgeable collectors of that time, Dave Spanagel included 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>-- as he saw to it to write many of the articles it contains, on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>various manufacturers.  As I mentioned previously, these in-depth 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>articles (and often just smaller one-paragraph notations on a more 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>obscure line of cars/engines) lead to everyone else contributing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>additional information they had available from their collections, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>making for more complete listings.  Once a topic was started, there 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>was usually a flood of additional info on it following through in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>the next issue, with many very eager to share what little they may 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>have towards it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>It was a very friendly atmosphere in that we all got to know each 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>other (and our specific collecting interests) so very well, and we'd 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>set up meetings at the larger train shows (swap & sells) to take up 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>discussions on all the minor and lessor-known aspects of the earlier 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>H0 producers.  Cooperation was such that we'd exchange each other's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>"want" list, to be taken to yet other states' meets which were too 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>far out of range for others.  Just as a "for instance," I can recall 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>finding many pieces of equipment for Dave Doiron, for one, who lived 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>in Colorado (I'm in NJ).  Dave (Doiron) was a major contributor to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Dave Spanagel's Guide to Varney Trains, as well as to Dallas 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Mallerich's Guide to Athearn Trains -- in case you're wondering who 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>I'm rambling about -- but it shows the type of camaraderie that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>existed between all of us.  Just thought I'd give some 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>behind-the-scenes insight as to how and what went on between many of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>the collectors at that time, and what it was like, as we knew we 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>could all learn from each other.  Ray F W 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10411
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: A.M.T. (American Model Toys)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                       
AMT  first known as   American Model Toys  later 
as   Auburn Model Trains   and still later as  KMT 
(Kusan Model Trains) sold by Kusan-Auburn Incorporated. I can't find one paper I 
have for the first address but remember it as Auburn, Tenn.. The last address 
for KMT is   2716 Franklin Road   Nashville, Tenn. Using all 
three names these companies sold mostly O Gauge. This set of HO was patterned 
after their O gauge items.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            The 6 
car set (complete) of HO passenger cars has American Model Toys embossed in 
raised letters on the bottom of the cars. The ad (first picture) is the same 
cars but now Auburn Model Trains. The picture of this add list the names 
and numbers for these cars. This first pictured ad shows the parts that 
assemble into these cars. I also have an ad in front of me for 
KMT  HO Gauge Streamliners. This shows a 4 car set of these cars with an 
A  (powered) & B (dummy) F-7 units along with track in a KMT box. ( A 
side note is that this set was on Ebay a while back. I bid but lost ). Here I 
want to note the A&B F-7's are Athearn but not the RBD drive. The write up 
states  " with self lubricating bearings and Nylon gears in the twin 
powered transmission". This description sounds like the pre RBD drives Athearn 
had. This might give a time frame as to when this set sold.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
I'm sorry if the pictures are not the best. These cars are described as 
"polished extruded aluminum" and after all these years still have a shine, hence 
the glare. these cars are heavy . The Aluminum is  pretty thick and gives 
good weight for tracking.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            On to 
the cars. I am showing the first four cars this Email.The last two later along 
with pictures of the name embossed on the bottom plus the Talgo mounted non 
working plastic couplers. The Talgo type coupler and the truck move independent 
of each other allowing the non working couples to be usable.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          More 
later.                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10412
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: A.M.T. (American Model Toys) [5 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have two of the baggage cars marked "KMT" and the body and tailpiece to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
make a 60' Observation.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I mostly knew Kusan/Auburn as the O-27 people.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I had read elsewhere that the HO AMT was the company out of Mt. Clemens, MI 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
that made the 1:25 automobile models,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Not that doubt your information, it just seems a little strange that a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
company would stop making HO and concentrate on O-27 at a time when HO was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
growing and the larger models were starting their decline.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Cc: <lennard@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 8:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] A.M.T. (American Model Toys) [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   AMT  first known as   American Model Toys  later as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Auburn Model Trains   and still later as  KMT (Kusan Model Trains) sold by 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Kusan-Auburn Incorporated. I can't find one paper I have for the first 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
address but remember it as Auburn, Tenn.. The last address for KMT is   2716 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Franklin Road   Nashville, Tenn. Using all three names these companies sold 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
mostly O Gauge. This set of HO was patterned after their O gauge items.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
        The 6 car set (complete) of HO passenger cars has American Model 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Toys embossed in raised letters on the bottom of the cars. The ad (first 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
picture) is the same cars but now Auburn Model Trains. The picture of this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
add list the names and numbers for these cars. This first pictured ad shows 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the parts that assemble into these cars. I also have an ad in front of me 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
for KMT  HO Gauge Streamliners. This shows a 4 car set of these cars with an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
A  (powered) & B (dummy) F-7 units along with track in a KMT box. ( A side 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
note is that this set was on Ebay a while back. I bid but lost ). Here I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
want to note the A&B F-7's are Athearn but not the RBD drive. The write up 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
states  " with self lubricating bearings and Nylon gears in the twin powered 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
transmission". This description sounds like the pre RBD drives Athearn had. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
This might give a time frame as to when this set sold.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
         I'm sorry if the pictures are not the best. These cars are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
described as "polished extruded aluminum" and after all these years still 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
have a shine, hence the glare. these cars are heavy . The Aluminum is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
pretty thick and gives good weight for tracking.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
        On to the cars. I am showing the first four cars this Email.The last 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
two later along with pictures of the name embossed on the bottom plus the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Talgo mounted non working plastic couplers. The Talgo type coupler and the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
truck move independent of each other allowing the non working couples to be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
usable.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      More later. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10413
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: AMT Part 2
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
These pictures are of the final 2 cars of the 6 car set first sold by AMT 
American Model Toys. The other two pictures show the Talgo coupler / passenger 
truck arrangement that allows both to move separate of each other. Works good 
even with non working plastic couplers. The other picture will show the raised 
embossed American Model Toys name.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I feel 
over all these are great cars made in the early 50's (about 1953). They are 
heavy as each piece is all metal and fairly thick. The cars come already lighted 
and the two bulbs sit right over the trucks in pre cast sockets. No need for 
wiring here.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           W Jay 
W    I want to thank you for your comments. I'm glad  I 
could shed a little light on not only steam and diesel engines but passenger 
cars too. I have so much more I can share.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           How ever I 
think it's time for a break. A number of subjects were brought up for discussion 
and I learned some new and important facts myself. I am also starting to feel 
I'm pushy or hogging the site. I'm sure some are saying "Enough". I'll give it a 
rest for a couple of days. If members want more I can provide .If there is 
something specific, and if I have (steam, diesel or passenger, no freight cars 
)something in my collection, ask and I'll follow up. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Remember no one 
person knows all the facts. There are times I know more but hesitate for two 
reasons. To much information even gets me confused and the possibility, although 
not on purpose, of making a mistake. I don't care how many times you read over 
what you write you seem to never find those mistakes till the Email is 
sent.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Later (much 
maybe)                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10414
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: A.M.T. (American Model Toys)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                       Don D
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
First I think HO by Ameican Model Toy only made full size cars , no shorties 
from what I know. Unless this 6 cat set was not full size and considered 
shorties.) These cars are all 10 inches using the same metal frame.  ( 
Penn Line plastic passenger are 9 and the Exacta I just sent are just over 11"). 
I let the experts decide that.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Second that Mount 
Clemems AMT making  car kits had no relationship with the AMT American 
Model Toy. Two separate entities and from what I know different time 
frames.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           These 
companies I have cited (differnt names) all started with  O gauge items as 
their main theme. The HO passenger cars were copied from the O gauge cars. I 
have no idea why but the HO was dropped an Kusan keep making O gauge to try to 
compete with Lionel.  I don't know how long they continued with either the 
HO or the O gauge lines but I saw ads for Kusan O gauge line after the HO 
had stopped. I honestly think the HO were to well made and the cost to make 
took over as plastic came in.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 10:22 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A.M.T. (American 
  Model Toys)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I have two of the baggage cars marked "KMT" and the body and tailpiece to 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    make a 60' Observation.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I mostly knew Kusan/Auburn as the O-27 
  people.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I had read elsewhere that the HO AMT was the company out of Mt. 
  Clemens, MI 
                                                                                                                                                                                    that made the 1:25 automobile models,
                                                                                                                                                                                    Not that doubt your 
  information, it just seems a little strange that a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    company would stop 
  making HO and concentrate on O-27 at a time when HO was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    growing and the 
  larger models were starting their decline.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don 
  Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: 
  <lennard@etex. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
  Sunday, May 03, 2009 8:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] A.M.T. (American Model 
  Toys) [5 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                    AMT first known as American Model Toys later as 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Auburn Model Trains and still later as KMT (Kusan Model Trains) sold by 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Kusan-Auburn Incorporated. I can't find one paper I have for the first 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    address but remember it as Auburn, Tenn.. The last address for KMT is 2716 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Franklin Road Nashville, Tenn. Using all three names these companies sold 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    mostly O Gauge. This set of HO was patterned after their O gauge 
  items.

                                                                                                                                                                                    The 6 car set (complete) of HO passenger cars has American Model 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Toys embossed in raised letters on the bottom of the cars. The ad (first 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    picture) is the same cars but now Auburn Model Trains. The picture of this 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    add list the names and numbers for these cars. This first pictured ad 
  shows 
                                                                                                                                                                                    the parts that assemble into these cars. I also have an ad in front 
  of me 
                                                                                                                                                                                    for KMT HO Gauge Streamliners. This shows a 4 car set of these cars 
  with an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    A (powered) & B (dummy) F-7 units along with track in a KMT 
  box. ( A side 
                                                                                                                                                                                    note is that this set was on Ebay a while back. I bid but 
  lost ). Here I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    want to note the A&B F-7's are Athearn but not the RBD 
  drive. The write up 
                                                                                                                                                                                    states " with self lubricating bearings and Nylon 
  gears in the twin powered 
                                                                                                                                                                                    transmission" . This description sounds like 
  the pre RBD drives Athearn had. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    This might give a time frame as to when 
  this set sold.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm sorry if the pictures are not the best. These cars 
  are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    described as "polished extruded aluminum" and after all these years 
  still 
                                                                                                                                                                                    have a shine, hence the glare. these cars are heavy . The Aluminum 
  is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    pretty thick and gives good weight for tracking.

                                                                                                                                                                                    On to the cars. 
  I am showing the first four cars this Email.The last 
                                                                                                                                                                                    two later along with 
  pictures of the name embossed on the bottom plus the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Talgo mounted non 
  working plastic couplers. The Talgo type coupler and the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    truck move 
  independent of each other allowing the non working couples to be 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    usable.

                                                                                                                                                                                    More later. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H 

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10415
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: A.M.T. (American Model Toys)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim,  This set of cars was nicely engineered to produce a very decent appearance, and even though they were shorties (they didn't produce full size 85' cars), they were advertised as being 70' -- not nearly as short as some other manufacturers' shorties.  I don't believe they were originally sold as a set, although they may have been.  They were at least sold individually though, so the modelers could add as many cars as he wanted.  The original name -- American Model Toys -- could leave you to believe that these were not scale models, as I was first lead to believe but after seeing them I changed my mind quickly.  The material used reminds me of the similar heavy-wall extruded aluminum that Walthers used on a couple of their 6800 Series freight cars (6832 & 6833) in the late '40s; it gave them just enough heft without having to add weight.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
They did only make the six cars, as you've said, but it's too bad they never made more.  I'll list their descriptions below  -- the pics you've included in your post give a good idea of what they're like.  One thing that puzzles me slightly is that they have a somewhat corregated (light) appearance yet not so much as to look like many other corregated H0 lines.  This may be why Model R.R. Equipment Corp. lists them as smooth-side, although I'm still not sure, but I find them attractive in any case. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Car styles available from American Model Toys were; Baggage, Baggage-Coach, Coach, Bedroom-Roomette, Diner and Observation.  A comparatively brief but informative description of their construction by Carmen Webster reads:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Floor and underframe with underbody detail is a single casting.  Sides and roof are a one piece aluminum extrusion, stamped and punched.  Ends are metal castings.  Diaphram is not finished.  Dummy couplers which swing with the four wheel Commonwealth streamline trucks are supplied.  A feature of these kits is the two sockets casr integral with the floor (bulbs are furnished) to provide interior lighting."
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm glad you included the part about the Talgo-type dummy couplers and the trucks moving independently of each other, if I got that part right.  That's a little more descriptive than what Webster wrote.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                    AMT  first known as   American Model Toys  later as   Auburn Model Trains   and still later as  KMT (Kusan Model Trains) sold by Kusan-Auburn Incorporated. I can't find one paper I have for the first address but remember it as Auburn, Tenn.. The last address for KMT is   2716 Franklin Road   Nashville, Tenn. Using all three names these companies sold mostly O Gauge. This set of HO was patterned after their O gauge items.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         The 6 car set (complete) of HO passenger cars has American Model Toys embossed in raised letters on the bottom of the cars. The ad (first picture) is the same cars but now Auburn Model Trains. The picture of this add list the names and numbers for these cars. This first pictured ad shows the parts that assemble into these cars. I also have an ad in front of me for KMT  HO Gauge Streamliners. This shows a 4 car set of these cars with an A  (powered) & B (dummy) F-7 units along with track in a KMT box. ( A side note is that this set was on Ebay a while back. I bid but lost ). Here I want to note the A&B F-7's are Athearn but not the RBD drive. The write up states  " with self lubricating bearings and Nylon gears in the twin powered transmission". This description sounds like the pre RBD drives Athearn had. This might give a time frame as to when this set sold.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          I'm sorry if the pictures are not the best. These cars are described as "polished extruded aluminum" and after all these years still have a shine, hence the glare. these cars are heavy . The Aluminum is  pretty thick and gives good weight for tracking.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         On to the cars. I am showing the first four cars this Email.The last two later along with pictures of the name embossed on the bottom plus the Talgo mounted non working plastic couplers. The Talgo type coupler and the truck move independent of each other allowing the non working couples to be usable.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       More later.                                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10416
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: More hobby shops - was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    That's too bad, Steve -- I didn't know that.  Been a little while since I've been out that way; didn't realize it was that long.  It was always a welcome destination to stop in to when driving I-78 as he was only a stone's throw off the highway.  I have no idea now, where that place was that I stopped in at a few times around Easton. It's been just too long since I stopped there.  Seems like it was west or southwest of town, probably in a general direction of Bethlehem.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gingerbread Shop closed a few years ago. Bob is only online now. Only two 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> hobby shops I can think off in Easton area, Hobby Hangout, closed last year 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and Trains & Lanes off route 33.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 1:15 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Aerotrain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Jay,  Could have run into you some time at MRPO, although being a bit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > far for me, I never got up there too often.  I know Ray Threllfall for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > about 29 years now, though.  He's also a rail fan of sorts, especially of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the NYS&W -- when he has the time.  The Rich's Hobbytowne I mentioned 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > being in Parsippany, was actually the one you're referring to, in Pine 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Brook.  I got the names of the towns mixed up.  Rich's was in that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ex-church -- which was displayed on a promotional box car too.  There was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > another hobby shop up the road (Route 46) a piece, in Parsippany, by the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > name of 20th Century Hobbies.  They opened shortly after Rich's closed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I believe some H0SC&H members sent in pics and write ups of at least some 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Varney promotional cars, but I couldn't tell you which ones.  I'm missing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > some of my copies of thw Reporting Mark, but will scan through what I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > first chance I get.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I've dropped in to the Gingerbread Shop myself from time to time, but only 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > when I was out that way on I-78.  Nice place, he has everything.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > remember him having a Nickle Plate Products Reading Crusader engine (for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > about $600), and the 5 car set (for another $600).  REALLY nice, but too 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > heavy for me.  I think that's where I saw a factory painted, also Nickel 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Plate Products NYO&W mountain (Mountaineer) engine #405 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > (semi-streamlined).  Another day that I almost died of thirst, drooling. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > There was a hobby shop just outside of Easton. PA (Jim may know of it). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Have no idea if it's still there; it was a bit small, but he had good 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > stuff.  Again, I only stopped there if I was in the vicinity -- and I'd 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > only be in the vicinity if I was on my way railfanning, like out to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Allentown.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > There used to be a fair number of shops in this area (Bergen County) about 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 20 years ago, but now there's only a few left.  One place I'll never 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > forget when I was a kid was a place called Hobby Land in Hackensack, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > now I'm going back into the '40's.  Talk about having stuff, they had 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > EVERYTHING on earth.  If it was made, they had it.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Hi Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> I suspect our paths have crossed, especially at MRPO.  During slow 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> afternoons, I have been know to bring some vintage HO gem for show and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> tell there, too!  For some reason, my dad did not care for Rich's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Hobbytowne on RT 46 when I was a kid in my American Flyer days, but a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> couple of years ago, I found a promotional Rich's Hobbytowne "Tri-O'Rama" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Varney reefer in its original Varney Aerotrain box!  Decorated nicely by 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Varney, it sometimes can be seen with an NYSME boxcar in my Carstens RR 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Museum Special. BTW, did anyone at the Vintage HO SIG ever compile a list 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> of Varney's promptional cars?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> I do remember Rich's later Pine Brook (ex-Church) and Oakland shops, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> not the other one mentioned.  For a while before Ray's MRPO, went to Bob 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Fisher's Gingerbred Stop in Warren or Mt. Bethel, but that was a 50 mile 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> trip, almost as far as The Model RR Shop in Dunnellen which was too far! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> I have heard about some of the good shops mentioned by others, but out of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> my area. W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > Hi Jay,  It occurred to me that we may have crossed paths at some time. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > I also used to visit Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, both in the old store and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > then in the newly (then) remodelled store.  Do you remember Rich's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > Hobbytown in Parsippany -- right off Rt. 46?  He later opened another 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > store in Oakland (NJ, for those wondering if I meant CA).  Back then, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > there were a lot of hobby shops around.  Now you have to travel some to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > get to one.  I guess you now go to Ray Threllfall's Model Railway Post 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > Office Supply in Greenwood Lake?  I believe I saw where he was thinking 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > of retiring, great guy.  Best,  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > > John H., Yes, three grins from me, and probably a fourth as those 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > > black grease pencil discount price markings look just like the ones 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > > made by "Joe" at Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey, NJ in the 1960's, the go-to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > > spot for model railroading supplies in suburban Northern NJ back 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > > then! It was not too difficult to convince my dad to take a 14 mile 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > > drive over there a couple of times a month, even if it was only for a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > > headlight casting and decal!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > > > Here are two photos of the Aerotrain boxes just for grins
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > > > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10417
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: AMT Part 2 [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I may be way off base here but to me these
cars represent an uncanny resemblance to the
 Mantua extruded aluminum cars. Maybe if a
collector that has examples of both can compare the extrusions themselves, ignoring
the widow, door cut outs and the shape of the skirts. If the extrusions do not
have the same rib layouts and cross section, I will go back into my cave and be
quiet again.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10418
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Motor Car Ends
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I only wish I could help you there, Mike -- but I don't know the first thing about posting pictures.  Besides which, I don't have a digital camera, and probably will never get one as they wouldn't serve my purposes for the most part.  I have five 35mm SLR film cameras which I use for taking pics of 1:1 scale trains, as color slides.  Chuck H. had started teaching me about posting pics, but just have not had the time to finish up on the tutorial.  I'll need to get a slide scanner to, from what I understand.  It's for these same reasons that you haven't yet seen any of my models, at least not on the Group site, which I hope to post some day.  Maybe someone else could send in a pic from a catalog.  Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Can someone please scan and post images of the Sampson motorcar ends ???
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Pictures of collected ones would be nice to see. But since most of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> those parts rotted away, I doubt I'll get to see those.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> On May 1, 2009, at 9:21 PM, Denny Anspach wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > A possibly significant clue as to  why the Sampson motor car may have
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > left the scene early is the fact that although the Sampson bodies were
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > magnesium, the ends were very poor quality Zamac with a very high
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > zincpest attrition rate- a fatal attribute which probably did not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > spare the cast shaped ends..............
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10419
						From: Graeme
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: A.M.T. (American Model Toys) [5 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    In message <2520A7450F5C4645B40B9FAB486A8F42@jheckard>, jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
<jimheck@...> writes
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >                   AMT  first known as   American Model Toys  later as  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Auburn Model Trains   and still later as  KMT (Kusan Model Trains) sold
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>by Kusan-Auburn Incorporated. I can't find one paper I have for the first
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>address but remember it as Auburn, Tenn.. The last address for KMT is   2716 Franklin Road   Nashville, Tenn. Using all three names these
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>companies sold mostly O Gauge. This set of HO was patterned after their
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>O gauge items.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, Everyone.  You may be aware that there is a Yahoo Kusan group, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
covering the company from AMT Auburn through Kusan, Kris, Franks 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Roundhouse to Williams, who used Kusan tooling, at one time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AMT_Kusan_KMT_Kris_Williams_Trains/
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
We are trying to build up an online library of catalogs, instructions 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and other paper, and already have quite a lot available, from 1951 AMT 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
through 1971 (Kris).  The group tends towards 0, but that is not to say 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
HO interest would not be welcomed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Graeme, Scotland
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10420
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: A.M.T. (American Model Toys)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                     Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          You just answered a 
question I was not sure of. I never thought of these as "shorties". Always 
thought these would be considered full size. You're statement about 70' cars 
would be about right. These are 10". I just replied to Don D that Penn Line are 
9" and the copper Exacta are just over 11" and what would these be.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         Sorry Don D I guess 
these are considered shorties, but actually mid size.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       Another fact to retain.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Brunch 
calls.                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    .----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 11:36 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: A.M.T. (American 
  Model Toys)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, This set of cars was nicely engineered to produce a very decent 
  appearance, and even though they were shorties (they didn't produce full size 
  85' cars), they were advertised as being 70' -- not nearly as short as some 
  other manufacturers' shorties. I don't believe they were originally sold as a 
  set, although they may have been. They were at least sold individually though, 
  so the modelers could add as many cars as he wanted. The original name -- 
  American Model Toys -- could leave you to believe that these were not scale 
  models, as I was first lead to believe but after seeing them I changed my mind 
  quickly. The material used reminds me of the similar heavy-wall extruded 
  aluminum that Walthers used on a couple of their 6800 Series freight cars 
  (6832 & 6833) in the late '40s; it gave them just enough heft without 
  having to add weight.

                                                                                                                                                                                    They did only make the six cars, as you've said, 
  but it's too bad they never made more. I'll list their descriptions below -- 
  the pics you've included in your post give a good idea of what they're like. 
  One thing that puzzles me slightly is that they have a somewhat corregated 
  (light) appearance yet not so much as to look like many other corregated H0 
  lines. This may be why Model R.R. Equipment Corp. lists them as smooth-side, 
  although I'm still not sure, but I find them attractive in any case. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Car styles available from American Model Toys were; Baggage, 
  Baggage-Coach, Coach, Bedroom-Roomette, Diner and Observation. A comparatively 
  brief but informative description of their construction by Carmen Webster 
  reads:

                                                                                                                                                                                    "Floor and underframe with underbody detail is a single casting. 
  Sides and roof are a one piece aluminum extrusion, stamped and punched. Ends 
  are metal castings. Diaphram is not finished. Dummy couplers which swing with 
  the four wheel Commonwealth streamline trucks are supplied. A feature of these 
  kits is the two sockets casr integral with the floor (bulbs are furnished) to 
  provide interior lighting."

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm glad you included the part about the 
  Talgo-type dummy couplers and the trucks moving independently of each other, 
  if I got that part right. That's a little more descriptive than what Webster 
  wrote. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray F W

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > AMT first known 
  as American Model Toys later as Auburn Model Trains and still later as KMT 
  (Kusan Model Trains) sold by Kusan-Auburn Incorporated. I can't find one paper 
  I have for the first address but remember it as Auburn, Tenn.. The last 
  address for KMT is 2716 Franklin Road Nashville, Tenn. Using all three names 
  these companies sold mostly O Gauge. This set of HO was patterned after their 
  O gauge items.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The 6 car set (complete) of HO passenger cars 
  has American Model Toys embossed in raised letters on the bottom of the cars. 
  The ad (first picture) is the same cars but now Auburn Model Trains. The 
  picture of this add list the names and numbers for these cars. This first 
  pictured ad shows the parts that assemble into these cars. I also have an ad 
  in front of me for KMT HO Gauge Streamliners. This shows a 4 car set of these 
  cars with an A (powered) & B (dummy) F-7 units along with track in a KMT 
  box. ( A side note is that this set was on Ebay a while back. I bid but lost 
  ). Here I want to note the A&B F-7's are Athearn but not the RBD drive. 
  The write up states " with self lubricating bearings and Nylon gears in the 
  twin powered transmission" . This description sounds like the pre RBD 
  drives Athearn had. This might give a time frame as to when this set 
  sold.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'm sorry if the pictures are not the best. These cars 
  are described as "polished extruded aluminum" and after all these years still 
  have a shine, hence the glare. these cars are heavy . The Aluminum is pretty 
  thick and gives good weight for tracking.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > On to the cars. I 
  am showing the first four cars this Email.The last two later along with 
  pictures of the name embossed on the bottom plus the Talgo mounted non working 
  plastic couplers. The Talgo type coupler and the truck move independent of 
  each other allowing the non working couples to be usable.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  More later. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10421
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    We did a list in August of 2008.  It does
differ from what is posted below.  Could you go to the file section and review
it?
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 8:39
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson
Passemger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, Got lots to do at the moment, but just wanted to
end some confusion on Sampson while I saw this, so as not to leave people
hanging (I'll be back later - I hope). At first, I thought I remembered doing a
spread sheet with Chuck H. filing it, but it must have only been a post I made
on Sampson back in the past. Then, I thought that W Jay W just posted a list
within the past few days when replying to you, but couldn't find it -- lots
(almost too much) stuff going on here recently to keep up with. In looking over
your counts of 85' kits, both corregated and smooth side, I see that you have
as many smooth-side as is known to me -- NINE. But, you're only listing 8
corregated side full length passenger cars; you are missing THREE that I know
of. I'll list them all (85' corregated-side) just to end any confusion at least
on these. I viewed your attachment for Sampson, but there was no list to
account for catalog numbers -- car types:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sampson -- 85' Corregated-Side Streamline Passenger Cars --
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-1 --- Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-2 --- 22 Roomette - Pullman
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-3 --- Parlor Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-4 --- Baggage - Tavern - Lounge
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-5 --- Baggage Mail
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-6 --- Diner 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-7 --- Tavern - Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-8 --- Vista Dome Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-9 --- Vista Dome Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-10 -- Club - Lounge - Baggage
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-20 -- 6 Bedroom/10 Roomette - Pullman
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-201 - Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-204 - Baggage - Coach 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I've understood Sampson had planned to produce more, but I don't have anything
further on them to verify anything else. You'll notice they jumped to an SL-200
Series (still 85' corregated cars), possibly to avoid conflict in their numbers
since they already had SL-11 though SL-19 designated for 60' corregated
shorties and SL-100 Series designated for 85' smooth-side cars. They did have
SL-211 (Shorty Combine), SL-212 (Shorty Coach), etc., on, already designated
for 60' smooth-side cars though, so they couldn't have added any more than 9
more cars to the two SL-200 Series I've already mentioned. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Since there's no actual listing of the 85' Smooth-Side Streamlined cars, I
thought I'd list them here as well, for the benefit of all:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sampson -- 85' Smooth-Side Streamlined Passenger Cars --
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-100 -- Mail - Bagge
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-101 -- Day-Nite Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-102 -- Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-103 -- Lounge-Dormitory
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-104 -- Diner
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-105 -- Bedroom/Roomette - Pullman
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-106 -- Bedroom/Roomette - Pullman
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-107 -- Observation - Lounge
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL-108 -- Vista Dome Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
It should be noted that the Smooth-Side kits could be ordered factory painted
for 50 cents extra, in addition to their $3.75 list price. I won't go into the
60' Shorties here, but will wait until your head stops spinning. Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I am about to confuse the Sampson passenger car story. I'm sending a
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    number of pictures to help illustrate what I am about to write. Hoping my one
finger for typing can last till I write all these facts and questions. I think
it best to read entire story before you answer and not pull one statement out
to cite.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The first picture is just to show I am drawing information from a number
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    of Sampson passenger cars and the paperwork in them. They include full size
corrugated, "shorty" corrugated and full size Smooth passenger cars
for an empire Builder set. I'm not citing any ads from books or catalogs just
what Sampson wrote on the plans.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Let me write a statement here from the plans that is word for word
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    "We now have two complete trains. One with corrugated sides and roof (7
cars) and the new GN Empire Builder with smooth sides and roof (8 cars)".
(First I have to ask a question. Did anybody mention the smooth side cars by
Sampson or did I miss that ? ). Talking about only full size not shorties.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Now as to the number of each cars produced. Right above this statement is
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    a list with the types of corrugated and smooth side cars (Only talking the full
size cars) available. This list, using Sampson numbers, has 8 corrugated full
size passenger cars, SL-1 to SL-8 (Remember the statement I cited said 7 cars).
This list also shows 9 smooth side passenger cars SL-100 - SL 108 (Remember the
statement I cited said 8 smooth sided cars). I think it odd that Sampson, on
the same sheet of plans,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > has two different statements only a paragraph apart.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> On to any other thing. I have found two types of ends (picture shown) in
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sampson boxes. I'm talking both types of full size and the corrugated
"shorties" now. It doesn't seem to matter that one type was for the
corrugated and one for the smooth sided cars. Some cars have one type, some
cars have the other type. (Again I have found the two types of ends in boxes
containing the same style of car. This has me confused.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The picture of a completed corrugated Sampson passenger car has two
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    purposes. One, this car has the Smooth ends ( No door detail) unlike others
having the end with the door detail. The second thing is just to show the
unique diaphragms Sampson used on their cars. It came as a little rubber
bellows type that reminds me of a balloon that hadn't been blown up since it
had a tiny end on it when the diaphragms were made.You cut this off before you
installed them. I have found some of these in excellent shape and others hard
and cracked (useless). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm not even going to get into the Shorties. To many facts already. Will
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    be interested in any discussion, any mistakes I made typing, any missed point
in previous thread about Sampson. Have a ball.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim (my head is spinning) H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                     

 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10422
						From: Fred Hultberg
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Photo-Etching
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I am planning to start using the "daily digest" instead of "all e-mails," so if anyone has more questions or comments on/about photo-etching, please make contact with me off-list.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks and Happy Modeling!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut) 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10423
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: A.M.T. (American Model Toys)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H, Ray F W, John H and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
For those who don't have any, the length of these cars is virtually the same, within a few scale inches, as the streamlined Athearn passenger coaches. As far as weight goes, my KMT combine, having trucks but missing both its baggage doors and couplers, weighs in at 11-1/2 ounces! These were sturdy, well designed cars.  One nice feature is that the full inner vestibule wall and inner door is modeled as part of the one piece hard metal die casting (clearly shown in the drawing on HOseeker). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Perhaps the side fluting does not photograph well, but my examples have the prototypically deeper fluting on the car sides above and below the smooth window sections, with finer fluting in the skirt area.  The roof is smooth.  Separate letterboards were to be glued to the AMT era versions, and it seems many were not or fell off.  The KMT version I have has a Santa Fe lettering plate rivited to the side with two oversized, shiny toy-like rivets,  somewhat spoiling the scale appearance of these nice cars, in my huumble opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
John, I had wondered about that possible Mantua connection as well, as I read it suggested somewhere previously, but have none to compare to my two examples of American Model Toy and KMT cars and do not know if the timing between the discontinuance of KMT production and introduction of Mantua models makes it plausible.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       You just answered a question I was not sure of. I never thought of these as "shorties". Always thought these would be considered full size. You're statement about 70' cars would be about right. These are 10". I just replied to Don D that Penn Line are 9" and the copper Exacta are just over 11" and what would these be.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      Sorry Don D I guess these are considered shorties, but actually mid size.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    Another fact to retain.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Brunch calls.                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> .----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 11:36 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: A.M.T. (American Model Toys)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Jim, This set of cars was nicely engineered to produce a very decent appearance, and even though they were shorties (they didn't produce full size 85' cars), they were advertised as being 70' -- not nearly as short as some other manufacturers' shorties. I don't believe they were originally sold as a set, although they may have been. They were at least sold individually though, so the modelers could add as many cars as he wanted. The original name -- American Model Toys -- could leave you to believe that these were not scale models, as I was first lead to believe but after seeing them I changed my mind quickly. The material used reminds me of the similar heavy-wall extruded aluminum that Walthers used on a couple of their 6800 Series freight cars (6832 & 6833) in the late '40s; it gave them just enough heft without having to add weight.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   They did only make the six cars, as you've said, but it's too bad they never made more. I'll list their descriptions below -- the pics you've included in your post give a good idea of what they're like. One thing that puzzles me slightly is that they have a somewhat corregated (light) appearance yet not so much as to look like many other corregated H0 lines. This may be why Model R.R. Equipment Corp. lists them as smooth-side, although I'm still not sure, but I find them attractive in any case. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Car styles available from American Model Toys were; Baggage, Baggage-Coach, Coach, Bedroom-Roomette, Diner and Observation. A comparatively brief but informative description of their construction by Carmen Webster reads:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   "Floor and underframe with underbody detail is a single casting. Sides and roof are a one piece aluminum extrusion, stamped and punched. Ends are metal castings. Diaphram is not finished. Dummy couplers which swing with the four wheel Commonwealth streamline trucks are supplied. A feature of these kits is the two sockets casr integral with the floor (bulbs are furnished) to provide interior lighting."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I'm glad you included the part about the Talgo-type dummy couplers and the trucks moving independently of each other, if I got that part right. That's a little more descriptive than what Webster wrote. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > AMT first known as American Model Toys later as Auburn Model Trains and still later as KMT (Kusan Model Trains) sold by Kusan-Auburn Incorporated. I can't find one paper I have for the first address but remember it as Auburn, Tenn.. The last address for KMT is 2716 Franklin Road Nashville, Tenn. Using all three names these companies sold mostly O Gauge. This set of HO was patterned after their O gauge items.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > The 6 car set (complete) of HO passenger cars has American Model Toys embossed in raised letters on the bottom of the cars. The ad (first picture) is the same cars but now Auburn Model Trains. The picture of this add list the names and numbers for these cars. This first pictured ad shows the parts that assemble into these cars. I also have an ad in front of me for KMT HO Gauge Streamliners. This shows a 4 car set of these cars with an A (powered) & B (dummy) F-7 units along with track in a KMT box. ( A side note is that this set was on Ebay a while back. I bid but lost ). Here I want to note the A&B F-7's are Athearn but not the RBD drive. The write up states " with self lubricating bearings and Nylon gears in the twin powered transmission". This description sounds like the pre RBD drives Athearn had. This might give a time frame as to when this set sold.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I'm sorry if the pictures are not the best. These cars are described as "polished extruded aluminum" and after all these years still have a shine, hence the glare. these cars are heavy . The Aluminum is pretty thick and gives good weight for tracking.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > On to the cars. I am showing the first four cars this Email.The last two later along with pictures of the name embossed on the bottom plus the Talgo mounted non working plastic couplers. The Talgo type coupler and the truck move independent of each other allowing the non working couples to be usable.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > More later. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10424
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: A.M.T. (American Model Toys)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    W. Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    The smooth roof kind of kills it as the
 Mantua roofs were also
ribbed or fluted. Recently while browsing through my old MR collection I ran across
an article by Tom Busack on building a Pioneer Zephyr. He used
 Mantua extrusions as the roofs were
corrugated. The way I figure it if the extrusion was not the same, the likelihood
of one being the impetus for the other is slim. 
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Even so, the overall construction is so similar
with the doors being part of the ends, talgo trucks (and similar trucks at
that) II just had to inquire as to the possibility.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Back to the cave…..
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of the_plainsman
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 12:52
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: A.M.T.
(American Model Toys)
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H, Ray F W, John H and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
For those who don't have any, the length of these cars is virtually the same,
within a few scale inches, as the streamlined Athearn passenger coaches. As far
as weight goes, my KMT combine, having trucks but missing both its baggage
doors and couplers, weighs in at 11-1/2 ounces! These were sturdy, well
designed cars. One nice feature is that the full inner vestibule wall and inner
door is modeled as part of the one piece hard metal die casting (clearly shown
in the drawing on HOseeker). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Perhaps the side fluting does not photograph well, but my examples have the
prototypically deeper fluting on the car sides above and below the smooth
window sections, with finer fluting in the skirt area. The roof is smooth.
Separate letterboards were to be glued to the AMT era versions, and it seems
many were not or fell off. The KMT version I have has a Santa Fe lettering
plate rivited to the side with two oversized, shiny toy-like rivets, somewhat
spoiling the scale appearance of these nice cars, in my huumble opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
John, I had wondered about that possible Mantua 
connection as well, as I read it suggested somewhere previously, but have none
to compare to my two examples of American Model Toy and KMT cars and do not
know if the timing between the discontinuance of KMT production and introduction
of Mantua 
models makes it plausible.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10425
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Varney Dockside on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 




 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Group,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    I just looked at a metal Varney Dockside
with 3 Varney ore cars and cupola caboose. The cars and caboose are plastic. It’s
item # 180344623399.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    It’s a “buy it now” auction for $30.00 +
shipping. If I hadn’t just made a couple of other purchases I’d of
gone for it.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John
Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor,
Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green
Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10426
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Docksider - Ore Car - Caboose
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
That Docksider - Ore Car - Caboose consist has aways been a favorite.  It took me a while, but train show and eBay purchases have resulted in an unpainted zamac Little Joe, three "raw" zamac Varney ore cars and the zamac Model Engineering Works Grasse River Caboose. Nice to both display and run.  My caboose is nicely painted in a model rail's green "Pocono Northern" colors, don't want to strip it, so still looking for an unpainted one. Sometimes I run the consist with a red painted brass Mantua bobber instead.  It "passes" the "cute" factor with family, and like a good ambassador, it can help pave the way for when you find and drag in that grimey old black Varney Yellowstone! LOL!  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10427
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Docksider - Ore Car - Caboose
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry John H. and Jim H, previous message mis-addressed to Jim H. & should have been to John H. and All.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim H, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> That Docksider - Ore Car - Caboose consist has aways been a favorite.  It took me a while, but train show and eBay purchases have resulted in an unpainted zamac Little Joe, three "raw" zamac Varney ore cars and the zamac Model Engineering Works Grasse River Caboose. Nice to both display and run.  My caboose is nicely painted in a model rail's green "Pocono Northern" colors, don't want to strip it, so still looking for an unpainted one. Sometimes I run the consist with a red painted brass Mantua bobber instead.  It "passes" the "cute" factor with family, and like a good ambassador, it can help pave the way for when you find and drag in that grimey old black Varney Yellowstone! LOL!  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10428
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: A.M.T. (American Model Toys)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I would call it a shorty, because a full length car would be closer to 11 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
1/2-12" long.  10" is about 72', same as the Athearn cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Attached is the pieces I mentioned for an observation.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 10:22 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A.M.T. (American Model Toys)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
   Don D
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
              First I think HO by Ameican Model Toy only made full size cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
, no shorties from what I know. Unless this 6 cat set was not full size and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
considered shorties.) These cars are all 10 inches using the same metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
frame.  ( Penn Line plastic passenger are 9 and the Exacta I just sent are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
just over 11"). I let the experts decide that.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      Second that Mount Clemems AMT making  car kits had no relationship 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with the AMT American Model Toy. Two separate entities and from what I know 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
different time frames.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
       These companies I have cited (differnt names) all started with  O 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
gauge items as their main theme. The HO passenger cars were copied from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
O gauge cars. I have no idea why but the HO was dropped an Kusan keep making 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
O gauge to try to compete with Lionel.  I don't know how long they continued 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with either the HO or the O gauge lines but I saw ads for Kusan O gauge line 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
after the HO had stopped. I honestly think the HO were to well made and the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
cost to make took over as plastic came in.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                 Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10429
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: AMT Part 2
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I originally thought the same thing, BUT.  There are two major differences. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
In the attached pictures, the Mantua car is on top.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The biggest difference in the extrusion themselves, The KMT has a smooth 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
roof, the Mantua is ribbed, with extra large ribs running the length of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
roof.  Also, and it doesn't show well on these pictures, but the KMT car has 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
ribs above the windows up to the eave line (they are covered up to a degree 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
on my car since I added full length letterboards.  You can see this much 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
better though on the observation pictures I attached to another message). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The Mantua car is smooth between the windows and the roof.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Then of course, the ends and floor are different, but that doesn't apply to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the extrusion itself.  Also the Mantua car is about 2 scale feet longer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 10:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] AMT Part 2
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
>I may be way off base here but to me these cars represent an uncanny
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> resemblance to the Mantua extruded aluminum cars. Maybe if a collector 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> has examples of both can compare the extrusions themselves, ignoring the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> widow, door cut outs and the shape of the skirts. If the extrusions do not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have the same rib layouts and cross section, I will go back into my cave 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> be quiet again.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10430
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck,  Yeah, I THOUGHT we did a sheet on Sampson, but I don't see one.  That's why I wrote that I thought I remembered doing one with you -- but didn't come up with one when I looked.  I just now looked again, but still don't see it.  All the lists filed under your name are in alphabetical order (I looked through them all) and there's Red Ball, then Silver Streak and Strombecker, but no Sampson anywhere that I can see.  Ray F W 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> We did a list in August of 2008.  It does differ from what is posted below.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Could you go to the file section and review it?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 8:39 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim, Got lots to do at the moment, but just wanted to end some confusion on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sampson while I saw this, so as not to leave people hanging (I'll be back
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> later - I hope). At first, I thought I remembered doing a spread sheet with
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck H. filing it, but it must have only been a post I made on Sampson back
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in the past. Then, I thought that W Jay W just posted a list within the past
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> few days when replying to you, but couldn't find it -- lots (almost too
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> much) stuff going on here recently to keep up with. In looking over your
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> counts of 85' kits, both corregated and smooth side, I see that you have as
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> many smooth-side as is known to me -- NINE. But, you're only listing 8
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> corregated side full length passenger cars; you are missing THREE that I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> know of. I'll list them all (85' corregated-side) just to end any confusion
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> at least on these. I viewed your attachment for Sampson, but there was no
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> list to account for catalog numbers -- car types:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sampson -- 85' Corregated-Side Streamline Passenger Cars --
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-1 --- Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-2 --- 22 Roomette - Pullman
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-3 --- Parlor Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-4 --- Baggage - Tavern - Lounge
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-5 --- Baggage Mail
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-6 --- Diner 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-7 --- Tavern - Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-8 --- Vista Dome Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-9 --- Vista Dome Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-10 -- Club - Lounge - Baggage
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-20 -- 6 Bedroom/10 Roomette - Pullman
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-201 - Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-204 - Baggage - Coach 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I've understood Sampson had planned to produce more, but I don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> anything further on them to verify anything else. You'll notice they jumped
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to an SL-200 Series (still 85' corregated cars), possibly to avoid conflict
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in their numbers since they already had SL-11 though SL-19 designated for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 60' corregated shorties and SL-100 Series designated for 85' smooth-side
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> cars. They did have SL-211 (Shorty Combine), SL-212 (Shorty Coach), etc.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> on, already designated for 60' smooth-side cars though, so they couldn't
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have added any more than 9 more cars to the two SL-200 Series I've already
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> mentioned. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Since there's no actual listing of the 85' Smooth-Side Streamlined cars, I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> thought I'd list them here as well, for the benefit of all:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sampson -- 85' Smooth-Side Streamlined Passenger Cars --
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-100 -- Mail - Bagge
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-101 -- Day-Nite Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-102 -- Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-103 -- Lounge-Dormitory
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-104 -- Diner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-105 -- Bedroom/Roomette - Pullman
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-106 -- Bedroom/Roomette - Pullman
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-107 -- Observation - Lounge
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL-108 -- Vista Dome Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It should be noted that the Smooth-Side kits could be ordered factory
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> painted for 50 cents extra, in addition to their $3.75 list price. I won't
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> go into the 60' Shorties here, but will wait until your head stops spinning.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, "jim
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I am about to confuse the Sampson passenger car story. I'm sending a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> number of pictures to help illustrate what I am about to write. Hoping my
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> one finger for typing can last till I write all these facts and questions. I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> think it best to read entire story before you answer and not pull one
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> statement out to cite.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The first picture is just to show I am drawing information from a number
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of Sampson passenger cars and the paperwork in them. They include full size
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> corrugated, "shorty" corrugated and full size Smooth passenger cars for an
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> empire Builder set. I'm not citing any ads from books or catalogs just what
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sampson wrote on the plans.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Let me write a statement here from the plans that is word for word "We now
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have two complete trains. One with corrugated sides and roof (7 cars) and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the new GN Empire Builder with smooth sides and roof (8 cars)". (First I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have to ask a question. Did anybody mention the smooth side cars by Sampson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> or did I miss that ? ). Talking about only full size not shorties.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Now as to the number of each cars produced. Right above this statement is
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> a list with the types of corrugated and smooth side cars (Only talking the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> full size cars) available. This list, using Sampson numbers, has 8
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> corrugated full size passenger cars, SL-1 to SL-8 (Remember the statement I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> cited said 7 cars). This list also shows 9 smooth side passenger cars SL-100
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> - SL 108 (Remember the statement I cited said 8 smooth sided cars). I think
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> it odd that Sampson, on the same sheet of plans,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > has two different statements only a paragraph apart.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > On to any other thing. I have found two types of ends (picture shown) in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sampson boxes. I'm talking both types of full size and the corrugated
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "shorties" now. It doesn't seem to matter that one type was for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> corrugated and one for the smooth sided cars. Some cars have one type, some
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> cars have the other type. (Again I have found the two types of ends in boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> containing the same style of car. This has me confused.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The picture of a completed corrugated Sampson passenger car has two
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> purposes. One, this car has the Smooth ends ( No door detail) unlike others
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> having the end with the door detail. The second thing is just to show the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> unique diaphragms Sampson used on their cars. It came as a little rubber
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> bellows type that reminds me of a balloon that hadn't been blown up since it
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> had a tiny end on it when the diaphragms were made.You cut this off before
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> you installed them. I have found some of these in excellent shape and others
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> hard and cracked (useless). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I'm not even going to get into the Shorties. To many facts already. Will
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> be interested in any discussion, any mistakes I made typing, any missed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> point in previous thread about Sampson. Have a ball.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Jim (my head is spinning) H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10431
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: No ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 This message is to the member who had been looking for an ID of an item on 
Ebay,  150341800894.   I see the item went off and low. I 
really wish that more pictures were posted. It's very hard to identify something 
from pictures that are poor and only one view. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               I still feel 
the frame and drivers are Fleischmann because of the gears cast on the back of 
the drivers. I also think that the three parts don't go together. An all plastic 
boiler with an all metal tender (which looks minus trucks). Blowing the picture 
up a little has not revealed any more detail to ID. The plastic cab 
with, only one window in the front position, might be a clue. 
 Then again it might be newer then the time frame I collect.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              All that to say no 
ID.    Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10432
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Partial ID Re: No ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yesterday I had a nagging suspicion about this, and this morning, remembered and went down and checked the "sell" carton.  I have one of these!  Just the engine, not the tender.  Plastic boiler shell, heavy metal chassis and steam chest. Valve gear identical, but mine is a 2-6-2 wheel arrangement, with small "V-shaped" cast metal pilot.  My version does not have gears on the backs of the drivers, though, but has conventional gearing on center driver. The combined sheet metal drawbar trailing truck frame has the original steel tab bent down at 90 degrees to fit into the slot visible on that ebay tender casting. All screws bear no evidence of ever having been taken apart.  It is marked on the cover plate "Japan." I caught a reference to it somewhere in the past, did not write it down, "Sekusi" something like that, manufactured, I believe, for big book Sears or Monkey Ward catalog sales.  Will post a pic when that digital camera arrives and I figure out how to plug it in. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Now I have to look for that tender at train shows, too! It came in one of two large lots I even bought, and those large purchases for me anyway, keep paying dividends.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>              This message is to the member who had been looking for an ID of an item on Ebay,  150341800894.   I see the item went off and low. I really wish that more pictures were posted. It's very hard to identify something from pictures that are poor and only one view. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            I still feel the frame and drivers are Fleischmann because of the gears cast on the back of the drivers. I also think that the three parts don't go together. An all plastic boiler with an all metal tender (which looks minus trucks). Blowing the picture up a little has not revealed any more detail to ID. The plastic cab with, only one window in the front position, might be a clue.  Then again it might be newer then the time frame I collect.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           All that to say no ID.    Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10433
						From: Steven Stoikes
						Date: 5/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: AMT parts one/two
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Greetings Jim and fellow AMTcoots:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I think Jim H's supposition of 1953 as the year of introduction of the  HO car line is probably correct. A "last hurrah" catalog from the Auburn, Indiana address refers to the company as "Auburn Model Trains, formerly Auburn Model Toys Inc., Auburn Indiana." By middle of '54 E&H Hobbies was already dumping the "O" guage line at deep discount prices without mention of the HO streamliner kits. That final Indiana catalog lists HO streamliners "in ready to assemble kits--the only all-metal "HO" kits on the market." They are kit numbers H-002 thru H-008 and offered at $6 to $7 each.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    By December ,1955, KMT is featured on the front cover of the Model Trains "Train Set Guide." A gentleman in hat and business coat is shown perusing the contents of KMT's big "Super Chief" sets (sans it's nifty lift-lid box cover.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Kusan-Auburn splurged with a full-page ad (now operating from their Franklin Road, Nashville, Tennessee address), again showing the Super Chief set, boxed, perched atop its nifty black/white/red lift-lid with the new red KMT logo accompanied by "HO Guage Electric Trains."
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The ad refers to the Super Chief, a four car set offered at a suggested $47.50. complete with track, A/B F-unit and four cars as pictured. They also refer to their second offering. the "El Capitan" , offered at $37.50 but not pictured in the advertisement.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Both sets get prominent coverage in the "Train Set Guide" that comprises the bulk of the Dec., '55 issue. The "El Capitan" set is pictured and references as "Set No. H22-235" and the smaller set is pictured and inked as "Set No. H22-765" with reference to its contents: 8 wheel drive locomotive, three aluminum cars and track.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    My "El Capitan" set is complete (unfortunately save for the box lid) in master box. The engine is clearly, as Jim opined in his opus AMT part one, virtually the same as Globe's (Uncle Irv and Co.) Sante Fe offering with original all-metal 8 wheel drive frame and gearboxes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Athearn must have made a killing that Christmas season on Sante-Fe 8-wheel-drive F-units sold to other "manufacturers" of train sets. My Herkimer "deluxe" from that year is likewise -equipped and the '55 train set offerings listed by Custombilt blatantly offer "Globe diesel A units."
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Alas, 1955 appears to have been the last dying gasp of KMT's HO set marketing. The 1956 Train Set Guide offers only the injection-molded plastic O-guage plastic freight train sets that Kusan staked their future on. What fun it would be for collectors and operators had they chosen to parallel those large scale offerings in HO. I'd be beating bushes for an HO "Atoms for Peace" set, or "Atomic Train" set or, dare I say it, and HO version of the "Satellite Train"--complete with diminutive compressortron car and Sputnik!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Magnolia Academy
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10434
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Partial ID Re: No ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim, looking a little closer, I meant to say "valve gear identical" with the words "type of construction" The drivers on the eBay item also appear smaller, the ones on my example measure about 58" by holding a scale next to them, not an exact caliper measurement. So not conclusive on teh chassis, but could be a related, earlier production. The tender for my road type locomotive may have been different, but still with a slot for the drawbar.  Will have to look at that tender on the recent eBay offering more closely, too, when I have more time tonight. I just spent fruitless time seeing if I had saved the ID photo and text of the one exactly like mine on a disc, but if saved, could not locate it now.  W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim H!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yesterday I had a nagging suspicion about this, and this morning, remembered and went down and checked the "sell" carton.  I have one of these!  Just the engine, not the tender.  Plastic boiler shell, heavy metal chassis and steam chest. Valve gear identical, but mine is a 2-6-2 wheel arrangement, with small "V-shaped" cast metal pilot.  My version does not have gears on the backs of the drivers, though, but has conventional gearing on center driver. The combined sheet metal drawbar trailing truck frame has the original steel tab bent down at 90 degrees to fit into the slot visible on that ebay tender casting. All screws bear no evidence of ever having been taken apart.  It is marked on the cover plate "Japan." I caught a reference to it somewhere in the past, did not write it down, "Sekusi" something like that, manufactured, I believe, for big book Sears or Monkey Ward catalog sales.  Will post a pic when that digital camera arrives and I figure out how to plug it in. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Now I have to look for that tender at train shows, too! It came in one of two large lots I even bought, and those large purchases for me anyway, keep paying dividends.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >              This message is to the member who had been looking for an ID of an item on Ebay,  150341800894.   I see the item went off and low. I really wish that more pictures were posted. It's very hard to identify something from pictures that are poor and only one view. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >            I still feel the frame and drivers are Fleischmann because of the gears cast on the back of the drivers. I also think that the three parts don't go together. An all plastic boiler with an all metal tender (which looks minus trucks). Blowing the picture up a little has not revealed any more detail to ID. The plastic cab with, only one window in the front position, might be a clue.  Then again it might be newer then the time frame I collect.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >           All that to say no ID.    Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10435
						From: David Helber
						Date: 5/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Can anybody ID this steamer?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The statement that the boiler is plastic makes me think MDC (later) or Lionel, but the slope-back looks zamac.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm convinced that the tender is a common Mantua slope-back. The wide-angle lens makes it look larger and slightly distorted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Did you see the Mantua coupler on the rear of the engine frame?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Like, the chassis was a tank loco?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I had assumed the loco used the Mantua loop to hook up to a tender. Not a bad idea, but I think you're right. A tank engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Mix of unrelated bits.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm thinking so too. But the shell, especially, is interesting - pretty good American outline, and since it's plastic it was intended for production in large numbers. So why has nobody seen it? I'm guessing foreign-made - if it were domestic, I and probably a number of the people on this forum would recognize it quickly. Even if it were a quick-failure American product, the dies would have passed to one of the other makers, and we'd have seen these things.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold says,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >> dont think its of European orgin... at least not Fleischmann.... those
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Fleischmann locos that were sold in the USA typically had an German
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> outline, with only a few details changed ( smokebox, pilot,...) to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> camouflage their orgin. No clue on this one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Remember Fleischmann did US versions of the BR 01 4-6-2, a BR 42 2-4-2
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and a branchline 2-6-0 ...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I remember the Fleischmann US outline engines. I have a soft spot for their Baldwin diesel switcher. I agree that their US stuff was still pretty obviously European - slanted cab sides, etc. - with American doodads hung on.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The dome arrangement is very distinctive - two domes, pretty far forward then lots of space. I looked at the countersunk screw holes in the domes and the gears on the drivers, and said "Maybe Marklin." But I can't find pics of a similar Marklin steamer.  Roco or other lesser Euro manufacturers? It's not Rivarossi, though they did the screw-in-the-domes trick too. Lima or Mehano? Doesn't seem British. If it were Canadian, enough would have leaked across the border that we'd recognize it. East European, perhaps?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 The Aussies and especially the N-Zeds ran American 1:1 equipment. Maybe it was home-market Aussie production of local prototype, not sold in the US. Who else used American style steam? Latin America? South Africa? Some Japanese engines kinda looked close to US outline, maybe the manufacturer modded the die for a domestic to sell an exotic American, but ... no, don't think so.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
It's a real loco mysterioso.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks to all who responded.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- D
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10436
						From: David Helber
						Date: 5/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Partial ID Re: No ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Whoa!  Just got thru posting a big "guess we'll never know" message on the original thread and suddenly -- Shazam!!!  Jay's found one like it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks for the work and the info, Jay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > The combined sheet metal drawbar trailing truck frame has the original steel tab bent down at 90 degrees to fit into the slot visible on that ebay tender casting. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Slot? Maybe that's a slot, I guess. I'd have bet fairly big money that the eBay item was a common Mantua tender casting that just found its way into the set. Goes to show...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
One of the Japanese manufacturers starting with an 'S' used to make equipment based on Marx; that might explain the gears on the back of the drivers - inspired by Marx 0-27? Just a wild guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- D
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  I have one of these!  Just the engine, not the tender.  ... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10437
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Partial ID Re: No ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dave H.,  After reading your first, I'm tending to think you might be right about the tender, a distorted photo with imagined slot, perhaps a swelling Mantua or maybe a Japanese interpretation of a Mantua! I have to get my little sloped back tenders out tonight and do a point by point comparison. Your mention of Marx-like copy on the engines rang true, at least as far as the solid backed drivers, as the spokes are not cast completely through - I think that is a feature also found on Marx?  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "David Helber" <dnhelber@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Whoa!  Just got thru posting a big "guess we'll never know" message on the original thread and suddenly -- Shazam!!!  Jay's found one like it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks for the work and the info, Jay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The combined sheet metal drawbar trailing truck frame has the original steel tab bent down at 90 degrees to fit into the slot visible on that ebay tender casting. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Slot? Maybe that's a slot, I guess. I'd have bet fairly big money that the eBay item was a common Mantua tender casting that just found its way into the set. Goes to show...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> One of the Japanese manufacturers starting with an 'S' used to make equipment based on Marx; that might explain the gears on the back of the drivers - inspired by Marx 0-27? Just a wild guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -- D
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  I have one of these!  Just the engine, not the tender.  ...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10438
						From: David Helber
						Date: 5/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Partial ID Re: No ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >It is marked on the cover plate "Japan." I caught a reference to it somewhere in the past, did not write it down, "Sekusi" something like that, manufactured, I believe, for big book Sears or Monkey Ward catalog sales.  Will post a pic when that digital camera arrives and I figure out how to plug it in. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Could it have been SAKAI ? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
They made some of the Marx "LineMar" products in Japan, including trains, and also had some connection with Fleischmann, apparently, at least insofar as steam stationary engines, and maybe dollhouses, went. Don't know about trains. Marx and Fleischmann, a gear-backed-driver double whammy.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- D
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10439
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 5/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Partial ID Fleischmann BR24 drive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Re the Fleischmann 2-6-0 - found a picture at flickr:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/33692780@N08/3257586885/
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
valve gear arrangement looks similar, drivers appear to be smaller but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the picture might be deceiving. The boiler / cab assembly is quite 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
different... might be Japanese, I recall a model with this cab 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
configuration. Maybe somebody unhappy with the looks of the Fleischmann 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
BR24 put the boiler on it after the Japanese mechanism failed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10440
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Partial ID Re: No ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                         Hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           You might be 
right about the plastic engine body. Sakai ( I always thought Sakaii) is the 
name of the Japanese 2-6-2 engine  you are talking about. In the US they 
were sold under the Champ name. They came with a plastic tender. (I can't 
find my sample right now (lost in boxes when we moved that are still unpacked). 
The plastic bodied tender had an odd look to it. Not a total American look, high 
and boxy. The original engine to tender lash up was a long metal hook from under 
the engine to a slot in the tender ( Marx like ? ). Maybe that is why 
a Mantua loop type coupler was used to replace the original hook up. All 
electrical pick up in the engine if I remember right. As you mention 
the engine did not have gears on the back of the drivers but was geared as 
you say. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I still say 
three different pieces. Sakai/Champ body , Fleischmann frame and drive and a 
possible Mantua tender ????? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 10:40 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Partial ID Re: No 
  ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H!

                                                                                                                                                                                    Yesterday I had a nagging suspicion about this, and this 
  morning, remembered and went down and checked the "sell" carton. I have one of 
  these! Just the engine, not the tender. Plastic boiler shell, heavy metal 
  chassis and steam chest. Valve gear identical, but mine is a 2-6-2 wheel 
  arrangement, with small "V-shaped" cast metal pilot. My version does not have 
  gears on the backs of the drivers, though, but has conventional gearing on 
  center driver. The combined sheet metal drawbar trailing truck frame has the 
  original steel tab bent down at 90 degrees to fit into the slot visible on 
  that ebay tender casting. All screws bear no evidence of ever having been 
  taken apart. It is marked on the cover plate "Japan." I caught a reference to 
  it somewhere in the past, did not write it down, "Sekusi" something like that, 
  manufactured, I believe, for big book Sears or Monkey Ward catalog sales. Will 
  post a pic when that digital camera arrives and I figure out how to plug it 
  in. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Now I have to look for that tender at train shows, too! It came in 
  one of two large lots I even bought, and those large purchases for me anyway, 
  keep paying dividends.

                                                                                                                                                                                    W. Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > This message is 
  to the member who had been looking for an ID of an item on Ebay, 150341800894. 
  I see the item went off and low. I really wish that more pictures were posted. 
  It's very hard to identify something from pictures that are poor and only one 
  view. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I still feel the frame and drivers are Fleischmann because of 
  the gears cast on the back of the drivers. I also think that the three parts 
  don't go together. An all plastic boiler with an all metal tender (which looks 
  minus trucks). Blowing the picture up a little has not revealed any more 
  detail to ID. The plastic cab with, only one window in the front position, 
  might be a clue. Then again it might be newer then the time frame I 
  collect.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > All that to say no ID. Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10441
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Partial ID Re: No ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                         Must add that the main and 
side rods on the Sakai / Champ 2-6-2 were kind of toy like or rudimentary.  
(I don't remember valve gear either). The overall look of this 2-6-2 was more 
toy like then scale (to my eye)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 3:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Partial ID Re: 
  No ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         Hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           You might be 
  right about the plastic engine body. Sakai ( I always thought Sakaii) is the 
  name of the Japanese 2-6-2 engine  you are talking about. In the US they 
  were sold under the Champ name. They came with a plastic tender. (I can't 
  find my sample right now (lost in boxes when we moved that are still 
  unpacked). The plastic bodied tender had an odd look to it. Not a total 
  American look, high and boxy. The original engine to tender lash up was a long 
  metal hook from under the engine to a slot in the tender ( Marx 
  like ? ). Maybe that is why a Mantua loop type coupler was used to 
  replace the original hook up. All electrical pick up in the engine if I 
  remember right. As you mention the engine did not have gears on the back 
  of the drivers but was geared as you say. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           I still say 
  three different pieces. Sakai/Champ body , Fleischmann frame and drive and a 
  possible Mantua tender ????? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 10:40 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Partial ID Re: No 
    ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H!

                                                                                                                                                                                    Yesterday I had a nagging suspicion about this, and this 
    morning, remembered and went down and checked the "sell" carton. I have one 
    of these! Just the engine, not the tender. Plastic boiler shell, heavy metal 
    chassis and steam chest. Valve gear identical, but mine is a 2-6-2 wheel 
    arrangement, with small "V-shaped" cast metal pilot. My version does not 
    have gears on the backs of the drivers, though, but has conventional gearing 
    on center driver. The combined sheet metal drawbar trailing truck frame has 
    the original steel tab bent down at 90 degrees to fit into the slot visible 
    on that ebay tender casting. All screws bear no evidence of ever having been 
    taken apart. It is marked on the cover plate "Japan." I caught a reference 
    to it somewhere in the past, did not write it down, "Sekusi" something like 
    that, manufactured, I believe, for big book Sears or Monkey Ward catalog 
    sales. Will post a pic when that digital camera arrives and I figure out how 
    to plug it in. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Now I have to look for that tender at train shows, 
    too! It came in one of two large lots I even bought, and those large 
    purchases for me anyway, keep paying dividends.

                                                                                                                                                                                    W. Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- 
    In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
    "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > This message 
    is to the member who had been looking for an ID of an item on Ebay, 
    150341800894. I see the item went off and low. I really wish that more 
    pictures were posted. It's very hard to identify something from pictures 
    that are poor and only one view. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I still feel the frame and drivers 
    are Fleischmann because of the gears cast on the back of the drivers. I also 
    think that the three parts don't go together. An all plastic boiler with an 
    all metal tender (which looks minus trucks). Blowing the picture up a little 
    has not revealed any more detail to ID. The plastic cab with, only one 
    window in the front position, might be a clue. Then again it might be newer 
    then the time frame I collect.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > All that to say no ID. 
    Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10442
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Partial ID Re: No ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Agree with the boiler and cab shell ID, and will write those names for a tag on my complete engine. And although mine is finished nicely, with recesses on the main and side rods painted black, the overall impression was like yours, Jim, that the 2-6-2 was more toy-like, too, even if close to scale.  That's why I did not take it apart to look inside, risk losing some spring or odd screw, thinking someone else would appreciate it more.  As to the mystey chassis I can not add to what else has been said here by others expert in Marx and Fleischmann.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      Must add that the main and side rods on the Sakai / Champ 2-6-2 were kind of toy like or rudimentary.  (I don't remember valve gear either). The overall look of this 2-6-2 was more toy like then scale (to my eye)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 3:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Partial ID Re: No ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        Hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          You might be right about the plastic engine body. Sakai ( I always thought Sakaii) is the name of the Japanese 2-6-2 engine  you are talking about. In the US they were sold under the Champ name. They came with a plastic tender. (I can't find my sample right now (lost in boxes when we moved that are still unpacked). The plastic bodied tender had an odd look to it. Not a total American look, high and boxy. The original engine to tender lash up was a long metal hook from under the engine to a slot in the tender ( Marx like ? ). Maybe that is why a Mantua loop type coupler was used to replace the original hook up. All electrical pick up in the engine if I remember right. As you mention the engine did not have gears on the back of the drivers but was geared as you say. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          I still say three different pieces. Sakai/Champ body , Fleischmann frame and drive and a possible Mantua tender ????? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 10:40 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Subject: [vintageHO] Partial ID Re: No ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Jim H!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Yesterday I had a nagging suspicion about this, and this morning, remembered and went down and checked the "sell" carton. I have one of these! Just the engine, not the tender. Plastic boiler shell, heavy metal chassis and steam chest. Valve gear identical, but mine is a 2-6-2 wheel arrangement, with small "V-shaped" cast metal pilot. My version does not have gears on the backs of the drivers, though, but has conventional gearing on center driver. The combined sheet metal drawbar trailing truck frame has the original steel tab bent down at 90 degrees to fit into the slot visible on that ebay tender casting. All screws bear no evidence of ever having been taken apart. It is marked on the cover plate "Japan." I caught a reference to it somewhere in the past, did not write it down, "Sekusi" something like that, manufactured, I believe, for big book Sears or Monkey Ward catalog sales. Will post a pic when that digital camera arrives and I figure out how to plug it in. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Now I have to look for that tender at train shows, too! It came in one of two large lots I even bought, and those large purchases for me anyway, keep paying dividends.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     > This message is to the member who had been looking for an ID of an item on Ebay, 150341800894. I see the item went off and low. I really wish that more pictures were posted. It's very hard to identify something from pictures that are poor and only one view. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     > I still feel the frame and drivers are Fleischmann because of the gears cast on the back of the drivers. I also think that the three parts don't go together. An all plastic boiler with an all metal tender (which looks minus trucks). Blowing the picture up a little has not revealed any more detail to ID. The plastic cab with, only one window in the front position, might be a clue. Then again it might be newer then the time frame I collect.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     > All that to say no ID. Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10443
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 5/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Could be I never posted it to the group
site.  Making if very difficult for you to see it.  Try now.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 2:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson
Passemger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck, Yeah, I THOUGHT we did a sheet on Sampson, but
I don't see one. That's why I wrote that I thought I remembered doing one with
you -- but didn't come up with one when I looked. I just now looked again, but
still don't see it. All the lists filed under your name are in alphabetical
order (I looked through them all) and there's Red Ball, then Silver Streak and
Strombecker, but no Sampson anywhere that I can see. Ray F W 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10444
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Some New Vids
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Since I've included both the DRGW list and the Virtual list in this one, I'll start off with a virtual run of the D&RGW starting from the Needleton tank and heading toward Silverton on a stormy afternoon in 1952.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    These next ones are more for the model railroad lists, Resurrecting the Dinosaurs, the Atlas Roundhouse project, done in five videos for the youtube audience.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10445
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Partial ID: Sakai Seisakusho Ltd. Locomotive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim and All;
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I found the photo and original box of the similar boilered "Sakai Seisakusho Ltd." 2-6-2 that I remembered, which seems identical to the plastic boiler/cab shown in yestereday's mystery photo.  One can also see the strap metal trailing truck link that was described.  The engine I have is virtually identical, but with black drivers, fully formed sand and steam domes (no recesses), closed portion of cab window frame painted red, "CB&Q" instead of cab number and nicely proportioned engineer leaning out of cab on opposite side.  The full name of manufacturer was taken from the description.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I am stll having problems posting messages with attachments, so have posted the photo temporailly in my Plainsman's Picks photo album, the most recent, last photo there. - I will leave it up for the rest of the week, afer that, email me for a copy.  Ps, that "Hudson and Pacific" name on the tender reminds me of a cast metal, toy-like F-unit I have with the same road name, probably from the same maker.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim H and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Agree with the boiler and cab shell ID, and will write those names for a tag on my complete engine. And although mine is finished nicely, with recesses on the main and side rods painted black, the overall impression was like yours, Jim, that the 2-6-2 was more toy-like, too, even if close to scale.  That's why I did not take it apart to look inside, risk losing some spring or odd screw, thinking someone else would appreciate it more.  As to the mystey chassis I can not add to what else has been said here by others expert in Marx and Fleischmann.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >      Must add that the main and side rods on the Sakai / Champ 2-6-2 were kind of toy like or rudimentary.  (I don't remember valve gear either). The overall look of this 2-6-2 was more toy like then scale (to my eye)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 3:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Partial ID Re: No ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >        Hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >          You might be right about the plastic engine body. Sakai ( I always thought Sakaii) is the name of the Japanese 2-6-2 engine  you are talking about. In the US they were sold under the Champ name. They came with a plastic tender. (I can't find my sample right now (lost in boxes when we moved that are still unpacked). The plastic bodied tender had an odd look to it. Not a total American look, high and boxy. The original engine to tender lash up was a long metal hook from under the engine to a slot in the tender ( Marx like ? ). Maybe that is why a Mantua loop type coupler was used to replace the original hook up. All electrical pick up in the engine if I remember right. As you mention the engine did not have gears on the back of the drivers but was geared as you say. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >          I still say three different pieces. Sakai/Champ body , Fleischmann frame and drive and a possible Mantua tender ????? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 10:40 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     Subject: [vintageHO] Partial ID Re: No ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     Jim H!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     Yesterday I had a nagging suspicion about this, and this morning, remembered and went down and checked the "sell" carton. I have one of these! Just the engine, not the tender. Plastic boiler shell, heavy metal chassis and steam chest. Valve gear identical, but mine is a 2-6-2 wheel arrangement, with small "V-shaped" cast metal pilot. My version does not have gears on the backs of the drivers, though, but has conventional gearing on center driver. The combined sheet metal drawbar trailing truck frame has the original steel tab bent down at 90 degrees to fit into the slot visible on that ebay tender casting. All screws bear no evidence of ever having been taken apart. It is marked on the cover plate "Japan." I caught a reference to it somewhere in the past, did not write it down, "Sekusi" something like that, manufactured, I believe, for big book Sears or Monkey Ward catalog sales. Will post a pic when that digital camera arrives and I figure out how to plug it in. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     Now I have to look for that tender at train shows, too! It came in one of two large lots I even bought, and those large purchases for me anyway, keep paying dividends.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     > This message is to the member who had been looking for an ID of an item on Ebay, 150341800894. I see the item went off and low. I really wish that more pictures were posted. It's very hard to identify something from pictures that are poor and only one view. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     > I still feel the frame and drivers are Fleischmann because of the gears cast on the back of the drivers. I also think that the three parts don't go together. An all plastic boiler with an all metal tender (which looks minus trucks). Blowing the picture up a little has not revealed any more detail to ID. The plastic cab with, only one window in the front position, might be a clue. Then again it might be newer then the time frame I collect.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     > All that to say no ID. Sorry
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10446
						From: Chris B
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Some ebay vintage listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    All of these except the Winton are mysteries to me, they may be junk for all I know, but I am trying to learn about vintage cast steam, not trying to bid on any of these listings.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am curious about the EMD trucks, and also, the early diesel frame and drive, I've never seen a hollow fly wheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----------------                                                                                                                                                                                    		


                                                                                                                                                                                    RARE Winton HO Brass Tender for Allegheny Steam Engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
  
7
$21.50
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$5.00 
1d 10h 08m
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    		


                                                                                                                                                                                    2-8-2 Southern Pacific Lines #3311 All Die Cast & Old
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
  
-
$34.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$10.01 
4d 08h 13m
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    		
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Union Pacfic 2-8-2 Pot Metal
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
  
-
$45.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$9.50
4d 05h 58m
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
-------------------

                                                                                                                                                                                    		


                                                                                                                                                                                    Brass EMD A1A Geared 6 Wheel Trucks - Lot of 4 NOS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
  
-
$9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$7.10
May-02 18:50
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ---------------                                                                                                                                                                                    		


                                                                                                                                                                                    VINTAGE TRAIN ENGINE
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
  
1
$14.78
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
Not specified
5d 18h 10m
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----------------                                                                                                                                                                                    		


                                                                                                                                                                                    ANTIQUE SOLID BRASS HO ELECTRIC ENGINE & TENDER CAR
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
  
5
$57.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$10.00 
Apr-30 17:00
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    		


                                                                                                                                                                                    VERY OLD STEAM LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
  
4
$8.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$10.00 
May-01 20:10
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    		


                                                                                                                                                                                    Cast Iron Engine # 7890 and coal car lot of detail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
 This seller accepts PayPal 
-
$24.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
$5.94
Apr-30 07:38
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------------------------

                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10447
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I dragged down one of my Version 1 or 2 Mantua 2-8-2's, the SP 2-8-2 in the listing has all the domes in the right place, and the tender trucks/steps are Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Looks like air pumps on the nose and an oil bunker on an old Mantua to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The UP 2-8-2 is a basically stock Version 3 (open gears) TYCO Mikado.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dismal trucks are International/Tenshodo, from appearances (would have been nice to see the other end of the boxes).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.org/internationalmodelinc/impe7aunitdiagram.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.org/tenshodo/impe7aunitdiagram.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > All of these except the Winton are mysteries to me, they may be junk for all I know, but I am trying to learn about vintage cast steam, not trying to bid on any of these listings.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I am curious about the EMD trucks, and also, the early diesel frame and drive, I've never seen a hollow fly wheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ---------------- RARE Winton HO Brass Tender for Allegheny Steam Engine     7 $21.50
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  $5.00  1d 10h 08m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------ 2-8-2 Southern Pacific Lines #3311 All Die Cast & Old     - $34.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  $10.01  4d 08h 13m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Union Pacfic 2-8-2 Pot Metal  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      - $45.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  $9.50 4d 05h 58m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -------------------  Brass EMD A1A Geared 6 Wheel Trucks - Lot of 4 NOS     - $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  $7.10 May-02 18:50 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --------------- VINTAGE TRAIN ENGINE     1 $14.78
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  Not specified 5d 18h 10m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ---------------- ANTIQUE SOLID BRASS HO ELECTRIC ENGINE & TENDER CAR     5 $57.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  $10.00  Apr-30 17:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  VERY OLD STEAM LOCOMOTIVE     4 $8.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  $10.00  May-01 20:10   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  Cast Iron Engine # 7890 and coal car lot of detail     - $24.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  $5.94 Apr-30 07:38 ------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10448
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.hoseeker.org/tycoinformation/tycocatalog1959pg02.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Photo of the TYCO UP 2-8-2 from catalog.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > I dragged down one of my Version 1 or 2 Mantua 2-8-2's, the SP 2-8-2 in the listing has all the domes in the right place, and the tender trucks/steps are Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Looks like air pumps on the nose and an oil bunker on an old Mantua to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The UP 2-8-2 is a basically stock Version 3 (open gears) TYCO Mikado.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dismal trucks are International/Tenshodo, from appearances (would have been nice to see the other end of the boxes).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.hoseeker.org/internationalmodelinc/impe7aunitdiagram.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.hoseeker.org/tenshodo/impe7aunitdiagram.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > All of these except the Winton are mysteries to me, they may be junk for all I know, but I am trying to learn about vintage cast steam, not trying to bid on any of these listings.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I am curious about the EMD trucks, and also, the early diesel frame and drive, I've never seen a hollow fly wheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ---------------- RARE Winton HO Brass Tender for Allegheny Steam Engine     7 $21.50
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  $5.00  1d 10h 08m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ------------------ 2-8-2 Southern Pacific Lines #3311 All Die Cast & Old     - $34.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  $10.01  4d 08h 13m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Union Pacfic 2-8-2 Pot Metal  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >      - $45.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  $9.50 4d 05h 58m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > -------------------  Brass EMD A1A Geared 6 Wheel Trucks - Lot of 4 NOS     - $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  $7.10 May-02 18:50 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --------------- VINTAGE TRAIN ENGINE     1 $14.78
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  Not specified 5d 18h 10m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ---------------- ANTIQUE SOLID BRASS HO ELECTRIC ENGINE & TENDER CAR     5 $57.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  $10.00  Apr-30 17:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  VERY OLD STEAM LOCOMOTIVE     4 $8.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  $10.00  May-01 20:10   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ----------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  Cast Iron Engine # 7890 and coal car lot of detail     - $24.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  $5.94 Apr-30 07:38 ------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10449
						From: Chris B
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the swift lesson, I think I know what I'm doing with Hobbytown, and I've learned a bit about early cast switchers, but everything else is still new, so this is exactly the kind of feedback I was seeking.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't expect to ever collect any vintage HO cast steam, but it's such a part of the discussion I'd like to be able to follow the threads, especially for early Varney and Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: curmudgeon <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 1:18:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Some ebay vintage listings

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.hoseeker .org/tycoinforma tion/tycocatalog 1959pg02. jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                    Photo of the TYCO UP 2-8-2 from catalog.

                                                                                                                                                                                     > I dragged down one of my Version 1 or 2 Mantua 2-8-2's, the SP 2-8-2 in the listing has all the domes in the right place, and the tender trucks/steps are Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Looks like air pumps on the nose and an oil bunker on an old Mantua to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The UP 2-8-2 is a basically stock Version 3 (open gears) TYCO Mikado.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dismal trucks are International/ Tenshodo, from appearances (would have been nice to see the other end of the boxes).
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://www.hoseeker.org/internationalmodelinc/impe7aunitdiagram.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://www.hoseeker.org/tenshodo/impe7aunitdiagram.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > All of these except the Winton are mysteries to me, they may be junk for all I know,
 
                                                                                                                                                                                     but I am trying to learn about vintage cast steam, not trying to bid on any of these listings.
                                                                                                                                                                                     > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I am curious about the EMD trucks, and also, the early diesel frame and drive, I've never seen a hollow fly wheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ------------ ---- RARE Winton HO Brass Tender for Allegheny Steam Engine     7 $21.50
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > $5.00  1d 10h 08m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ------------ ------ 2-8-2 Southern Pacific Lines #3311 All Die Cast & Old     - $34.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > $10.01  4d 08h 13m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >     
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Union Pacfic 2-8-2 Pot Metal  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >      - $45.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > $9.50 4d 05h 58m
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ------------ ------- Brass EMD A1A Geared 6 Wheel Trucks - Lot of 4 NOS     - $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > $7.10 May-02 18:50 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ------------ --- VINTAGE TRAIN ENGINE     1 $14.78
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Not specified 5d 18h 10m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ------------ ---- ANTIQUE SOLID BRASS HO ELECTRIC ENGINE & TENDER CAR     5 $57.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > $10.00  Apr-30 17:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > VERY OLD STEAM LOCOMOTIVE     4 $8.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > $10.00  May-01 20:10   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ------------ --------- -------
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Cast Iron Engine # 7890 and coal car lot of detail     - $24.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > $5.94 Apr-30 07:38 ------------ --------- ---------
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10450
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From such small (and poor) photos, sometimes it is hard to tell.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The SP Mike, being heavy, is the early Mantua with cast boiler, cab, and tender (I have 3).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The UP Mike is later, cast boiler, but plastic cab and tender (I have parts of one).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
My personal preference is the cast one, as it is A) heavier, and B) the gearbox is enclosed, bolts to the chassis, and the worm shaft is supported on both ends by oillite bearings.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The plastic one, heck, they certainly aren't worth a lot.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The cast ones a little more, but I don't really know as it would be considered "collectible". The SP unit, since it is "modified" is not a collector piece, but probably a good runner.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Thanks for the swift lesson, I think I know what I'm doing with Hobbytown, and I've learned a bit about early cast switchers, but everything else is still new, so this is exactly the kind of feedback I was seeking.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I don't expect to ever collect any vintage HO cast steam, but it's such a part of the discussion I'd like to be able to follow the threads, especially for early Varney and Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: curmudgeon <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 1:18:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Some ebay vintage listings
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.hoseeker .org/tycoinforma tion/tycocatalog 1959pg02. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Photo of the TYCO UP 2-8-2 from catalog.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I dragged down one of my Version 1 or 2 Mantua 2-8-2's, the SP 2-8-2 in the listing has all the domes in the right place, and the tender trucks/steps are Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Looks like air pumps on the nose and an oil bunker on an old Mantua to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The UP 2-8-2 is a basically stock Version 3 (open gears) TYCO Mikado.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dismal trucks are International/ Tenshodo, from appearances (would have been nice to see the other end of the boxes).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.hoseeker.org/internationalmodelinc/impe7aunitdiagram.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.hoseeker.org/tenshodo/impe7aunitdiagram.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > All of these except the Winton are mysteries to me, they may be junk for all I know, but I am trying to learn about vintage cast steam, not trying to bid on any of these listings.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I am curious about the EMD trucks, and also, the early diesel frame and drive, I've never seen a hollow fly wheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ ---- RARE Winton HO Brass Tender for Allegheny Steam Engine     7 $21.50
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $5.00  1d 10h 08m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ ------ 2-8-2 Southern Pacific Lines #3311 All Die Cast & Old     - $34.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $10.01  4d 08h 13m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Union Pacfic 2-8-2 Pot Metal  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >      - $45.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $9.50 4d 05h 58m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ ------- Brass EMD A1A Geared 6 Wheel Trucks - Lot of 4 NOS     - $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $7.10 May-02 18:50 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ --- VINTAGE TRAIN ENGINE     1 $14.78
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Not specified 5d 18h 10m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ ---- ANTIQUE SOLID BRASS HO ELECTRIC ENGINE & TENDER CAR     5 $57.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $10.00  Apr-30 17:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > VERY OLD STEAM LOCOMOTIVE     4 $8.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $10.00  May-01 20:10   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ --------- -------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Cast Iron Engine # 7890 and coal car lot of detail     - $24.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $5.94 Apr-30 07:38 ------------ --------- ---------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10451
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                            Chris, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            I don't 
have time to really look. Some quick thoughts.  See if I'm 
close
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          The Winton tender 
has the wrong trucks. The sideframes should be brass and a real unique look. 
Most likely these trucks are Arbour from their Allegheny
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           The six 
wheel (four driven) brass trucks look like International Products because of 
some underneath design especially the shape of pieces holding the driven wheels 
in place
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           The two 
2-8-2's. are TYCO or Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           The last 
engine. BODY looks Penn Line. Would have to check other detail 
closer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            The all 
brass Yellowstone is very interesting and I feel from Japan. I will let the 
resident brass expert from Virginia ( I think)  ID this 
piece.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             I 
don't like to make such snap judgments. Sometimes it works. I like to spend a 
little more time. I will check back tonight to see how I did.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 12:47 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Some ebay vintage 
  listings
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    All of these except the Winton are mysteries to me, they may be junk for 
  all I know, but I am trying to learn about vintage cast steam, not trying to 
  bid on any of these listings.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I am curious about the EMD trucks, and also, the early diesel frame and 
  drive, I've never seen a hollow fly wheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ ----                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    RARE Winton HO Brass Tender for Allegheny Steam 
        Engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
        
      7
      $21.50
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      $5.00 
      1d 10h 08m
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ ------
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    2-8-2 Southern Pacific Lines #3311 All Die Cast 
        & Old
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
        
      -
      $34.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      $10.01 
      4d 08h 13m
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Union Pacfic 2-8-2 Pot Metal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
        
      -
      $45.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      $9.50
      4d 05h 58m
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      ------------ ------- 
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Brass EMD A1A Geared 6 Wheel Trucks - Lot of 4 
        NOS
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
        
      -
      $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      $7.10
      May-02 18:50
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ ---                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    VINTAGE TRAIN ENGINE
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
        
      1
      $14.78
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      Not 
        specified
      5d 18h 10m
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ ----                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    ANTIQUE SOLID BRASS HO ELECTRIC ENGINE & TENDER 
        CAR
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
        
      5
      $57.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      $10.00 
      Apr-30 17:00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    VERY OLD STEAM LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
        
      4
      $8.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      $10.00 
      May-01 20:10
       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ --------- -------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cast Iron Engine # 7890 and coal car lot of 
        detail
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         		
       This seller accepts PayPal 
      -
      $24.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    		
      $5.94
      Apr-30 07:38
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ --------- ---------

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10452
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Mystery Motor
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Can anyone identify this?  HO Parts: 5 Pole Mystery Open-Frame Motor 

                                                                                                                                                                                    My best guess is early Penn Line, since the front brass bearing assembly resembles the twist-off style I've seen, but with a screw mount. Interesting how the brushes are mounted on posts inside the motor. I was looking for a replacement for a Penn Line Midget, but this one is too large.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10453
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Mystery Motor
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Looks like a japan make to me with the brush springs being internal to the open frame, located just above the shaft. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    It seems to me, I recall working on a brass steam engine with an identical motor. I had to tear apart the entire engine, replace the spring and re-assemble it. It was a task to say the least. Got it running good though. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I know it is not tenshodo.. possibly United.. whoever made their motors I do not know..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Nelson <greenbrier614@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 2:59:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Motor

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Can anyone identify this?  HO Parts: 5 Pole Mystery Open-Frame Motor 

                                                                                                                                                                                    My best guess is early Penn Line, since the front brass bearing assembly resembles the twist-off style I've seen, but with a screw mount. Interesting how the brushes are mounted on posts inside the motor. I was looking for a replacement for a Penn Line Midget, but this one is too large.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10454
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Looking further, the "Very Old Steam Loco" appears to be Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The valve gear is all gone, as is the main rod and crosshead.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The screws holding the chassis to the underside of the cab are visible.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
4-wheel trucks correct on early, but not sure if those are correct. One is broken, however.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.yardbirdtrains.com/SpecsMMike2.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The "open frame" tender is right for the early ones.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Thanks for the swift lesson, I think I know what I'm doing with Hobbytown, and I've learned a bit about early cast switchers, but everything else is still new, so this is exactly the kind of feedback I was seeking.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I don't expect to ever collect any vintage HO cast steam, but it's such a part of the discussion I'd like to be able to follow the threads, especially for early Varney and Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: curmudgeon <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 1:18:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Some ebay vintage listings
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.hoseeker .org/tycoinforma tion/tycocatalog 1959pg02. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Photo of the TYCO UP 2-8-2 from catalog.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I dragged down one of my Version 1 or 2 Mantua 2-8-2's, the SP 2-8-2 in the listing has all the domes in the right place, and the tender trucks/steps are Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Looks like air pumps on the nose and an oil bunker on an old Mantua to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The UP 2-8-2 is a basically stock Version 3 (open gears) TYCO Mikado.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dismal trucks are International/ Tenshodo, from appearances (would have been nice to see the other end of the boxes).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.hoseeker.org/internationalmodelinc/impe7aunitdiagram.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.hoseeker.org/tenshodo/impe7aunitdiagram.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > All of these except the Winton are mysteries to me, they may be junk for all I know, but I am trying to learn about vintage cast steam, not trying to bid on any of these listings.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I am curious about the EMD trucks, and also, the early diesel frame and drive, I've never seen a hollow fly wheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ ---- RARE Winton HO Brass Tender for Allegheny Steam Engine     7 $21.50
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $5.00  1d 10h 08m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ ------ 2-8-2 Southern Pacific Lines #3311 All Die Cast & Old     - $34.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $10.01  4d 08h 13m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Union Pacfic 2-8-2 Pot Metal  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >      - $45.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $9.50 4d 05h 58m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ ------- Brass EMD A1A Geared 6 Wheel Trucks - Lot of 4 NOS     - $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $7.10 May-02 18:50 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ --- VINTAGE TRAIN ENGINE     1 $14.78
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Not specified 5d 18h 10m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ ---- ANTIQUE SOLID BRASS HO ELECTRIC ENGINE & TENDER CAR     5 $57.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $10.00  Apr-30 17:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > VERY OLD STEAM LOCOMOTIVE     4 $8.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $10.00  May-01 20:10   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ --------- -------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Cast Iron Engine # 7890 and coal car lot of detail     - $24.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $5.94 Apr-30 07:38 ------------ --------- ---------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10455
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: AMT parts one/two
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                               Steven, 
All
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          I must relate 
something in regard to a statement you mentioned concerning Athearn F-7 units in 
Herkimer sets. It will go to show how some people don't read somethings clearly. 
(Yes I can be guilty too)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Before I go further I know that 
the Athearn Rubber Band Drive is designated Hi-F. Once as a member of another 
train group I had related a story about Herkimer sets (freight and passenger 
with F-7 diesels) being sold. Herkimer (today OK Streamliner) only made 
passenger cars. I had wondered if the freight cars and the F-7's shown were 
Athearn (and they were). I remarked that they , the F-7's,  were sold as 
Hi-Fi. I got crucified by name in the next issue because I was supposed to have 
said Athearn RBD WERE Hi-Fi drive. He sent numerous Athearn sheets 
pointing this out. He also said that Athearn (Irv included) NEVER used the 
HI-Fi designation and that it was Hi-F.  Again I didn't say that. He just 
did not read correctly what I said.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          I got a little upset 
and sent back a reply for the next newsletter. I sent alone a box for the 
Athearn plastic Pacific from the early 60's which clearly states  HI-Fi 
drive. Now I agree two things wrong here. They never sold the proposed RBD 
Pacific and the box in reality was labeled wrong. Turns out another person also 
sent in a picture of his RBD Athearn F7 set also with the box clearly 
marked Hi-Fi drive. ( I also added a remark about the Herkimer 
catalog, NOT ME, saying Hi-Fi.  I also mentioned that Polks Hobby Blue Book 
for 1959 listed all the Athearn RBD as Hi-Fi.)  Irv Athearn had to OK the 
use of these boxes marked wrong so he did in fact use the Hi-Fi 
designation.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         While Irv Athearn's 
official designation for the RBD drive was Hi-F  HE ALLOWED THE Hi-Fi 
designation to go unchecked. The man who "jumped my bones" is a well 
known respected collector and contributor to many books but NEVER had the 
decency to say "I read what you said wrong and I apologize". 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       I make mistakes based on my 
information. I have no problem with anyone correcting them if I'm wrong. Some of 
my "guesses"  about AMT were that and I appreciate the information you 
sent..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 11:39 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] AMT parts 
  one/two
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Greetings Jim and fellow AMTcoots:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    I think Jim H's supposition of 1953 as the year of introduction of 
        the  HO car line is probably correct. A "last hurrah" catalog from 
        the Auburn, Indiana address refers to the company as "Auburn Model 
        Trains, formerly Auburn Model Toys Inc., Auburn Indiana." By middle of 
        '54 E&H Hobbies was already dumping the "O" guage line at deep 
        discount prices without mention of the HO streamliner kits. That final 
        Indiana catalog lists HO streamliners "in ready to assemble kits--the 
        only all-metal "HO" kits on the market." They are kit numbers H-002 thru 
        H-008 and offered at $6 to $7 each.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    By December ,1955, KMT is featured on the front cover of the Model 
        Trains "Train Set Guide." A gentleman in hat and business coat is shown 
        perusing the contents of KMT's big "Super Chief" sets (sans it's nifty 
        lift-lid box cover.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Kusan-Auburn splurged with a full-page ad (now operating from their 
        Franklin Road, Nashville, Tennessee address), again showing the Super 
        Chief set, boxed, perched atop its nifty black/white/ red lift-lid 
        with the new red KMT logo accompanied by "HO Guage Electric 
        Trains."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    The ad refers to the Super Chief, a four car set offered at a 
        suggested $47.50. complete with track, A/B F-unit and four cars as 
        pictured. They also refer to their second offering. the "El Capitan" , 
        offered at $37.50 but not pictured in the 
        advertisement.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Both sets get prominent coverage in the "Train Set Guide" that 
        comprises the bulk of the Dec., '55 issue. The "El Capitan" set is 
        pictured and references as "Set No. H22-235" and the smaller set is 
        pictured and inked as "Set No. H22-765" with reference to its contents: 
        8 wheel drive locomotive, three aluminum cars and track.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    My "El Capitan" set is complete (unfortunately save for the box 
        lid) in master box. The engine is clearly, as Jim opined in his opus AMT 
        part one, virtually the same as Globe's (Uncle Irv and Co.) Sante Fe 
        offering with original all-metal 8 wheel drive frame and gearboxes. 
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Athearn must have made a killing that Christmas season on Sante-Fe 
        8-wheel-drive F-units sold to other "manufacturers" of train sets. My 
        Herkimer "deluxe" from that year is likewise -equipped and the '55 train 
        set offerings listed by Custombilt blatantly offer "Globe diesel A 
        units."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Alas, 1955 appears to have been the last dying gasp of KMT's HO set 
        marketing. The 1956 Train Set Guide offers only the injection-molded 
        plastic O-guage plastic freight train sets that Kusan staked their 
        future on. What fun it would be for collectors and operators had they 
        chosen to parallel those large scale offerings in HO. I'd be beating 
        bushes for an HO "Atoms for Peace" set, or "Atomic Train" set or, dare I 
        say it, and HO version of the "Satellite Train"--complete with 
        diminutive compressortron car and Sputnik!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Magnolia Academy
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10456
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Mystery Motor
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
The motor is a Japanese import.  I cannot say what importer because
several used this type motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in Va.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Can anyone identify this?  HO
Parts: 5 Pole Mystery Open-Frame Motor 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
My best guess is early Penn Line, since the front brass bearing
assembly resembles the twist-off style I've seen, but with a screw
mount. Interesting how the brushes are mounted on posts inside the
motor. I was looking for a replacement for a Penn Line Midget, but this
one is too large.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10457
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
Wrong tender trucks.  This might be a good buy if the frame is good
and the gearbox and motor are all there.  If they are it would be worth
the rebuild.  The photos are just not clear enough.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
There is a Varney Casey Jones and a Varney Old Lady listed also.  The
Old Lady has tender base problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    =======================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    
curmudgeon wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Looking further, the "Very Old Steam Loco" appears to be Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The valve gear is all gone, as is the main rod and crosshead.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The screws holding the chassis to the underside of the cab are visible.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
4-wheel trucks correct on early, but not sure if those are correct. One
is broken, however.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  http://www.yardbird trains.com/ SpecsMMike2. htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The "open frame" tender is right for the early ones.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks for the swift lesson, I think I know what I'm doing with
Hobbytown, and I've learned a bit about early cast switchers, but
everything else is still new, so this is exactly the kind of feedback I
was seeking.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I don't expect to ever collect any vintage HO cast steam, but it's
such a part of the discussion I'd like to be able to follow the
threads, especially for early Varney and Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: curmudgeon <idioticyahoo@ ...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 1:18:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Some ebay vintage listings
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.hoseeker
.org/tycoinforma tion/tycocatalog 1959pg02. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Photo of the TYCO UP 2-8-2 from catalog.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I dragged down one of my Version 1 or 2 Mantua 2-8-2's, the
SP 2-8-2 in the listing has all the domes in the right place, and the
tender trucks/steps are Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Looks like air pumps on the nose and an oil bunker on an old
Mantua to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The UP 2-8-2 is a basically stock Version 3 (open gears) TYCO
Mikado.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dismal trucks are International/ Tenshodo, from appearances
(would have been nice to see the other end of the boxes).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.hoseeker .org/internation almodelinc/ impe7aunitdiagra m.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.hoseeker .org/tenshodo/ impe7aunitdiagra m.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > All of these except the Winton are mysteries to me, they
may be junk for all I know, but I am trying to learn about vintage cast
steam, not trying to bid on any of these listings.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I am curious about the EMD trucks, and also, the early
diesel frame and drive, I've never seen a hollow fly wheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ ---- RARE Winton HO Brass Tender for
Allegheny Steam Engine     7 $21.50
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $5.00  1d 10h 08m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ ------ 2-8-2 Southern Pacific Lines #3311
All Die Cast & Old     - $34.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $10.01  4d 08h 13m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Union Pacfic 2-8-2 Pot Metal  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >      - $45.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $9.50 4d 05h 58m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ ------- Brass EMD A1A Geared 6 Wheel Trucks
- Lot of 4 NOS     - $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $7.10 May-02 18:50 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ --- VINTAGE TRAIN ENGINE     1 $14.78
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Not specified 5d 18h 10m 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ ---- ANTIQUE SOLID BRASS HO ELECTRIC ENGINE
& TENDER CAR     5 $57.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $10.00  Apr-30 17:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > VERY OLD STEAM LOCOMOTIVE     4 $8.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $10.00  May-01 20:10   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ------------ --------- -------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Cast Iron Engine # 7890 and coal car lot of detail     -
$24.99
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > $5.94 Apr-30 07:38 ------------ --------- ---------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10458
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: AMT parts one/two
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
Some people are Purists and they are hard to communicate with unless
you and they are saying exactly the same things.  I know because I once
was one of those.  He also could have been having a bad string of days
and vented frustration on you.  I learned much about communicating and
about people types when I entered into the people problem solving
business.  Sometimes they just have to insist on being right and they
believe they must correct everyone who does not exactly agree with
them.  They have a very hard time being happy.  Forgive them and
overlook their attitudes and actions.  Just let it be their problem to
deal with and go enjoying your trains.  Thanks for all the info you put
into this group.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
===================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               Steven, All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          I must relate something in
regard to a statement you mentioned concerning Athearn F-7 units in
Herkimer sets. It will go to show how some people don't read somethings
clearly. (Yes I can be guilty too)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        Before I go further I know that
the Athearn Rubber Band Drive is designated Hi-F. Once as a member of
another train group I had related a story about Herkimer sets (freight
and passenger with F-7 diesels) being sold. Herkimer (today OK
Streamliner) only made passenger cars. I had wondered if the freight
cars and the F-7's shown were Athearn (and they were). I remarked that
they , the F-7's,  were sold as Hi-Fi. I got crucified by name in the
next issue because I was supposed to have said Athearn RBD WERE Hi-Fi
drive. He sent numerous Athearn sheets pointing this out. He also said
that Athearn (Irv included) NEVER used the HI-Fi designation and that
it was Hi-F.  Again I didn't say that. He just did not read correctly
what I said.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          I got a little upset and sent
back a reply for the next newsletter. I sent alone a box for the
Athearn plastic Pacific from the early 60's which clearly states  HI-Fi
drive. Now I agree two things wrong here. They never sold the proposed
RBD Pacific and the box in reality was labeled wrong. Turns out another
person also sent in a picture of his RBD Athearn F7 set also with the
box clearly marked Hi-Fi drive. ( I also added a remark about the
Herkimer catalog, NOT ME, saying Hi-Fi.  I also mentioned that Polks
Hobby Blue Book for 1959 listed all the Athearn RBD as Hi-Fi.)  Irv
Athearn had to OK the use of these boxes marked wrong so he did in fact
use the Hi-Fi designation.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         While Irv Athearn's official
designation for the RBD drive was Hi-F  HE ALLOWED THE Hi-Fi
designation to go unchecked. The man who "jumped my bones" is a well
known respected collector and contributor to many books but NEVER had
the decency to say "I read what you said wrong and I apologize". 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       I make mistakes based on my
information. I have no problem with anyone correcting them if I'm
wrong. Some of my "guesses"  about AMT were that and I appreciate the
information you sent..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent:
Monday, May 04, 2009 11:39 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject:
[vintageHO] AMT parts one/two
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    Greetings Jim and fellow AMTcoots:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    I think Jim H's supposition of 1953 as the year of
introduction of the  HO car line is probably correct. A "last hurrah"
catalog from the Auburn, Indiana address refers to the company as
"Auburn Model Trains, formerly Auburn Model Toys Inc., Auburn Indiana."
By middle of '54 E&H Hobbies was already dumping the "O" guage line
at deep discount prices without mention of the HO streamliner kits.
That final Indiana catalog lists HO streamliners "in ready to assemble
kits--the only all-metal "HO" kits on the market." They are kit numbers
H-002 thru H-008 and offered at $6 to $7 each.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    By December ,1955, KMT is featured on the front cover of
the Model Trains "Train Set Guide." A gentleman in hat and business
coat is shown perusing the contents of KMT's big "Super Chief" sets
(sans it's nifty lift-lid box cover.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    Kusan-Auburn splurged with a full-page ad (now operating
from their Franklin Road, Nashville, Tennessee address), again showing
the Super Chief set, boxed, perched atop its nifty black/white/ red
lift-lid with the new red KMT logo accompanied by "HO Guage Electric
Trains."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    The ad refers to the Super Chief, a four car set offered
at a suggested $47.50. complete with track, A/B F-unit and four cars as
pictured. They also refer to their second offering. the "El Capitan" ,
offered at $37.50 but not pictured in the advertisement.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    Both sets get prominent coverage in the "Train Set
Guide" that comprises the bulk of the Dec., '55 issue. The "El Capitan"
set is pictured and references as "Set No. H22-235" and the smaller set
is pictured and inked as "Set No. H22-765" with reference to its
contents: 8 wheel drive locomotive, three aluminum cars and track.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    My "El Capitan" set is complete (unfortunately save for
the box lid) in master box. The engine is clearly, as Jim opined in his
opus AMT part one, virtually the same as Globe's (Uncle Irv and Co.)
Sante Fe offering with original all-metal 8 wheel drive frame and
gearboxes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    Athearn must have made a killing that Christmas season
on Sante-Fe 8-wheel-drive F-units sold to other "manufacturers" of
train sets. My Herkimer "deluxe" from that year is likewise -equipped
and the '55 train set offerings listed by Custombilt blatantly offer
"Globe diesel A units."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    Alas, 1955 appears to have been the last dying gasp of
KMT's HO set marketing. The 1956 Train Set Guide offers only the
injection-molded plastic O-guage plastic freight train sets that Kusan
staked their future on. What fun it would be for collectors and
operators had they chosen to parallel those large scale offerings in
HO. I'd be beating bushes for an HO "Atoms for Peace" set, or "Atomic
Train" set or, dare I say it, and HO version of the "Satellite
Train"--complete with diminutive compressortron car and Sputnik!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    Magnolia Academy
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                              		
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                          
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10459
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    The SP 2-8-2 is a
 Mantua and, if the cab and tender body are
metal, it is from the first update version that came out around 1952. The first
version had a different pilot and valve gear hangers. The pilot could have been
changed (bolt-on substitution) but the valve gear hangers had some frame modification.
It probably is from the early fifties as it has some very nicely done, fifties
style super detailing. One of the best I’ve seen from the era.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    The UP 2-8-2 is a Tyco/Mantua. The paint
scheme suggests it was late Tyco or early Mantua 
after the Tyler 
family repurchased the line.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    The “Very old steam locomotive”
is from the first run Mantua Mikado produced from about 1948 to 1951. It has the
early stamped brass valve gear hangers. It will also have the enclosed worm with
self-aligning bearings, rubber tube drive shaft w/metal ends and the DC-71
motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    The “Cast Iron” is of obvious Pennsylvania
RR linage and is probably Penn Line.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 11:47
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Some ebay
vintage listings
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    All of these except the Winton are mysteries to me,
they may be junk for all I know, but I am trying to learn about vintage cast
steam, not trying to bid on any of these listings.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    I am curious about the EMD trucks, and also, the
early diesel frame and drive, I've never seen a hollow fly wheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ ----
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    RARE Winton
  HO Brass Tender for Allegheny Steam Engine
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    7
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    $21.50
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    $5.00 
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    1d 10h 08m
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ ------
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    2-8-2
  Southern Pacific Lines #3311 All Die Cast & Old
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    -
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    $34.99
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    $10.01 
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    4d 08h 13m
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Union Pacfic
  2-8-2 Pot Metal
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
   
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    -
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    $45.00
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    $9.50
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    4d 05h 58m
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ ------- 
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Brass EMD A1A
  Geared 6 Wheel Trucks - Lot of 4 NOS
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    -
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    $7.10
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    May-02 18:50
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ ---
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    VINTAGE TRAIN
  ENGINE
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    1
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    $14.78
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Not specified
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    5d 18h 10m
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ ----
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ANTIQUE SOLID
  BRASS HO ELECTRIC ENGINE & TENDER CAR
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    5
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    $57.00
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    $10.00 
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Apr-30 17:00
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    VERY OLD
  STEAM LOCOMOTIVE
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    4
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    $8.00
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    $10.00 
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    May-01 20:10
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ --------- -------
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cast Iron
  Engine # 7890 and coal car lot of detail
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     This seller accepts PayPal 
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    -
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    $24.99
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    $5.94
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Apr-30 07:38
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ --------- ---------
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10460
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Did Varney Little Joe
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    x
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10461
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: test - no text
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Unable to send to group.  Test.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10462
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Did Varney 'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or valve gear?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    >Subject says it all:  I've neither owned nor seen a Varney Little 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Joe 0-4-0ST - ever. Perhaps it's time.  I see photos of them showing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>the crosshead merely secured by the piston rod.  Did Varney ever 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>offer crosshead guides or valve gear for these engines?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Still waiting for my copy of Greenberg to arrive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10463
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Did Varney 'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or valve  gear
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    No. There was a valve gear kit that
included the crosshead guides, I think from Central Valley .
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 22:19
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Did Varney
'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or valve gear?
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     





                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >Subject says it all: I've neither owned nor seen a Varney Little 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Joe 0-4-0ST - ever. Perhaps it's time. I see photos of them showing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>the crosshead merely secured by the piston rod. Did Varney ever 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>offer crosshead guides or valve gear for these engines?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Still waiting for my copy of Greenberg to arrive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                     

 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10464
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I was looking at the SP 2-8-2 again (I really
like this engine) and see that it has the DC-71 motor so it is from the very
first update and will also have the enclosed worm housing. Should be a very
good runner.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    I got my Mike for Christmas 1949. It could
pull darn near as well as my brothers Varney all-metal F3 with gear-driven 8
wheel drive from the same era (and it is now mine along with the gear-driven 4
wheel drive B unit). BTW, if anyone has a power truck to convert the B to 8
wheel drive, I would be interested. It is the good gearbox design with the removable
cover plate. The Mike sort of disappeared over the years. I decided I was going
to super detail it in the early seventies and got as far as disassembling it. I
found out how much work it was and never quite had the time to get much done.
After way too many moves and one divorce, I lost many things including most of
that Mikado. The only thing I have left is the valve gear, crossheads and main
rods which I am using for the much modified 0-6-0 I am building. The main rod
fit the new wheelbase without modification!  Just today, as I was removing
the 00-90 screw that holds the expansion link to the valve gear hanger I
remembered the last time that particular screw was touched was when my father
put it together for me sixty years ago this coming Christmas. I should never have
let that engine leave my hands. I am so sorry dad.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John
Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor,
Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green
Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 22:07
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Some ebay
vintage listings
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    The SP 2-8-2 is a
 Mantua and, if
the cab and tender body are metal, it is from the first update version that
came out around 1952. The first version had a different pilot and valve gear
hangers. The pilot could have been changed (bolt-on substitution) but the valve
gear hangers had some frame modification. It probably is from the early fifties
as it has some very nicely done, fifties style super detailing. One of the best
I’ve seen from the era.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10465
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings - J. Hagen >
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
John:

                                                                                                                                                                                    
First, thanks for clearing up the lack of crosshead guides and valve gear
on the Varney Little Joe.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Second, I like that SP 2-8-2 also.  However, my reasons for interest
are different from your story, (touching story BTW).  To keep this
short, if you are considering bidding on that locomotive, please advise,
and I would prefer to not bid.  Actually, if you were to get it I'd
really enjoy hearing a report on how it turns out.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
My interest in such an item is that I have no motive power of that
vintage.  As I've said here before, this List has sparked my
becoming re-acquainted with early HO.  It is almost bizarre because
I've had more fun haunting this List and learning from all of you
recently than most anything else I've done for a while.  I keep
waiting for the honeymoon to pass.  (grin)

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm a little concerned where all this is going for myself.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 08:49 PM 5/5/2009, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    I
was looking at the SP 2-8-2 again (I really like this engine) and see
that it has the DC-71 motor so it is from the very first update and will
also have the enclosed worm housing. Should be a very good runner.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I got my Mike for Christmas 1949. It could pull darn near as well as my
brothers Varney all-metal F3 with gear-driven 8 wheel drive from the same
era (and it is now mine along with the gear-driven 4 wheel drive B unit).
BTW, if anyone has a power truck to convert the B to 8 wheel drive, I
would be interested. It is the good gearbox design with the removable
cover plate. The Mike sort of disappeared over the years. I decided I was
going to super detail it in the early seventies and got as far as
disassembling it. I found out how much work it was and never quite had
the time to get much done. After way too many moves and one divorce, I
lost many things including most of that Mikado. The only thing I have
left is the valve gear, crossheads and main rods which I am using for the
much modified 0-6-0 I am building. The main rod fit the new wheelbase
without modification!  Just today, as I was removing the 00-90 screw
that holds the expansion link to the valve gear hanger I remembered the
last time that particular screw was touched was when my father put it
together for me sixty years ago this coming Christmas. I should never
have let that engine leave my hands. I am so sorry dad.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Editor, Green Bay
& Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Green Bay &
Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10466
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi John H.  Just read about your original Mike, and while most of the original was lost, you still have some parts that live on. That's more than many have. But the most important part is having those memories of the times with your dad that will always remain with you.  My dad passed early, and despite having some of my models from back then, one that we worked on together, the best part is the memories of us sharing that railroading time together. Good luck on getting that new Mike.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I was looking at the SP 2-8-2 again (I really like this engine) and see that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> it has the DC-71 motor so it is from the very first update and will also
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have the enclosed worm housing. Should be a very good runner.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I got my Mike for Christmas 1949. It could pull darn near as well as my
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> brothers Varney all-metal F3 with gear-driven 8 wheel drive from the same
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> era (and it is now mine along with the gear-driven 4 wheel drive B unit).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> BTW, if anyone has a power truck to convert the B to 8 wheel drive, I would
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> be interested. It is the good gearbox design with the removable cover plate.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The Mike sort of disappeared over the years. I decided I was going to super
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> detail it in the early seventies and got as far as disassembling it. I found
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> out how much work it was and never quite had the time to get much done.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> After way too many moves and one divorce, I lost many things including most
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of that Mikado. The only thing I have left is the valve gear, crossheads and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> main rods which I am using for the much modified 0-6-0 I am building. The
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> main rod fit the new wheelbase without modification!  Just today, as I was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> removing the 00-90 screw that holds the expansion link to the valve gear
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> hanger I remembered the last time that particular screw was touched was when
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> my father put it together for me sixty years ago this coming Christmas. I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> should never have let that engine leave my hands. I am so sorry dad.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 22:07
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Some ebay vintage listings
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The SP 2-8-2 is a Mantua and, if the cab and tender body are metal, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> from the first update version that came out around 1952. The first version
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> had a different pilot and valve gear hangers. The pilot could have been
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> changed (bolt-on substitution) but the valve gear hangers had some frame
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> modification. It probably is from the early fifties as it has some very
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> nicely done, fifties style super detailing. One of the best I've seen from
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the era.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10467
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 5/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis and W. Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank you for your kind comments. I do get
off on a nostalgic siding at times. It seems the older one gets the more those
old memories are cherished.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis, the truth of the matter is that
while I would like that Mike, I do have limitations on my RR budget and I have
been pushing the limit very hard of late. Including jumping for an undec Atlas
HH660 at the TTS. While I enjoy re-working the old stuff, being a GB&W guy It
was a must buy and my LHS (A very good LHS, BTW) was telling me they couldn’t
get undecs as of yet. But Enginehouse Services had them since Trainfest and
this was their last one so…….. Wonder what EHS did to get undecs? I
don’t know but their being located in
 Green Bay probably had something to do with
them going that extra mile.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    All this means if you are interested in
that Mikado go for it and don’t allow my interest dissuade you in any
way.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10468
						From: Dst8596587@aol.com
						Date: 5/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Mystery Motor
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don is right, I have two which I removed from a Balboa turbine. No ID on the motors. The yellowstone (2-8-8-4) referenced earlier is a B&O EM-1 which appears to be prior to the Akane release. Perhaps an IMP.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tue, 5 May 2009 5:18 pm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Motor
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    







                                                                                                                                                                                    











                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    



The motor is a Japanese import.  I cannot say what importer because
several used this type motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

Don in Va.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

Nelson wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Can anyone identify this?  HO
Parts: 5 Pole Mystery Open-Frame Motor 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

My best guess is early Penn Line, since the front brass bearing
assembly resembles the twist-off style I've seen, but with a screw
mount. Interesting how the brushes are mounted on posts inside the
motor. I was looking for a replacement for a Penn Line Midget, but this
one is too large.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    

 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

    
    




    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 



                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10469
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Mystery Motor
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the info, guys. It looks like a quality open frame, but even the good ones draw more than cans motors.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dst8596587@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  Don is right, I have two which I removed from a Balboa turbine. No ID on the motors. The yellowstone (2-8-8-4) referenced earlier is a B&O EM-1 which appears to be prior to the Akane release. Perhaps an IMP.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10470
						From: Bill DeFoe
						Date: 5/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Did Varney 'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or valve  gear
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John and Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The valve gear kit was indeed from Central Valley.  I bought the kit shortly after purchasing my Dockside in the early fifties.  The kit was a little unusual in that it had a flat (almost) plate that fit between the original boiler and the cylinder block and had the corners turned down in such a way that it became the valve gear hanger.  This was held in place by the same long screw that held the boiler to the frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ingenious design that works very well, but flops around when you take the engine apart.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> No. There was a valve gear kit that included the crosshead guides, I think
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> from Central Valley.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 22:19
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Did Varney 'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> valve gear?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Subject says it all: I've neither owned nor seen a Varney Little 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Joe 0-4-0ST - ever. Perhaps it's time. I see photos of them showing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >the crosshead merely secured by the piston rod. Did Varney ever 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >offer crosshead guides or valve gear for these engines?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Still waiting for my copy of Greenberg to arrive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10471
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Did Varney 'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or valve  gear
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Bill:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thank you for the additional comment.  Armed with that, I pulled my, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"E&H Model Hobbies," 1956, catalog and looked up Central 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Valley.  Yup, just as you all said, there was the valve gear kit for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the Little Joe listed for $4.65.  I have very little early 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
literature, but I've saved this E&H catalog all these 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
years......since 1956 anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm on the track, (pun), for a Little Joe, so I guess I need to watch 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
for the Central Valley kit next.  (I suppose that will be like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
finding stardust)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 01:10 PM 5/6/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >John and Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>The valve gear kit was indeed from Central Valley.  I bought the kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>shortly after purchasing my Dockside in the early fifties.  The kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>was a little unusual in that it had a flat (almost) plate that fit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>between the original boiler and the cylinder block and had the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>corners turned down in such a way that it became the valve gear 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>hanger.  This was held in place by the same long screw that held the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>boiler to the frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Ingenious design that works very well, but flops around when you 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>take the engine apart.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > No. There was a valve gear kit that included the crosshead guides, I think
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > from Central Valley.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10472
						From: Charlie
						Date: 5/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some New Vids
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Gary
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
What other filmm do you have from the 1950-60s.  Any in Texas ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thks
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Charlie Harris
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gary Woodard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hello All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Since I've included both the DRGW list and the Virtual list in this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> one, I'll start off with a virtual run of the D&RGW starting from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Needleton tank and heading toward Silverton on a stormy afternoon in 1952.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9HPNQM3xpU 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9HPNQM3xpU>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> These next ones are more for the model railroad lists, Resurrecting 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the Dinosaurs, the Atlas Roundhouse project, done in five videos for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the youtube audience.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3wfcDXyvC0 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3wfcDXyvC0>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcGGMTy6NTI 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcGGMTy6NTI>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKFEvZsStQU 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKFEvZsStQU>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlkKaTsS--Q 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlkKaTsS--Q>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdpa-GrRU3I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdpa-GrRU3I>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10473
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 5/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Did Varney 'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or valve  gear
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Get the Bowser Trains on-line illustrated catalog and price list.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
They have a similar set sold for the Dockside. You'll want to see if  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
they still have them in stock since they just stopped all steam kit  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
production in the last couple of weeks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     On May 6, 2009, at 6:28 PM, Dennis Thompson wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Bill:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thank you for the additional comment.  Armed with that, I pulled my,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "E&H Model Hobbies," 1956, catalog and looked up Central
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Valley.  Yup, just as you all said, there was the valve gear kit for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the Little Joe listed for $4.65.  I have very little early
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> literature, but I've saved this E&H catalog all these
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> years......since 1956 anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm on the track, (pun), for a Little Joe, so I guess I need to watch
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> for the Central Valley kit next.  (I suppose that will be like
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> finding stardust)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> At 01:10 PM 5/6/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> John and Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> The valve gear kit was indeed from Central Valley.  .......
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Ingenious design that works very well, but flops around when you
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> take the engine apart.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> --- I "John Hagen"  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> No. There was a valve gear kit that included the crosshead guides,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> I think
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> from Central Valley. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10474
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 5/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some New Vids
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Charlie,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have only one Texas route in my simulator, that would be the Roscoe Snyder and Pacific, I do run plenty of classic trains on however, it is a modern route.............:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Charlie <railroads@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2009 10:51:45 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Some New Vids

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Gary

                                                                                                                                                                                    What other filmm do you have from the 1950-60s. Any in Texas ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    Thks
                                                                                                                                                                                    Charlie Harris

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary Woodard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hello All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Since I've included both the DRGW list and the Virtual list in this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > one, I'll start off with a virtual run of the D&RGW starting from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Needleton tank and heading toward Silverton on a stormy afternoon in 1952.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=f9HPNQM3xpU 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > <http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=f9HPNQM3xpU>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > These next ones are more for the model railroad lists, Resurrecting 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > the Dinosaurs, the Atlas Roundhouse project, done in five videos for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > the youtube audience.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                     href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3wfcDXyvC0" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=p3wfcDXyvC0 
                                                                                                                                                                                     > <http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=p3wfcDXyvC0>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=tcGGMTy6NTI 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > <http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=tcGGMTy6NTI>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=rKFEvZsStQU 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > <http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=rKFEvZsStQU>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                     rel=nofollow>http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=xlkKaTsS- -Q 
                                                                                                                                                                                     > <http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=xlkKaTsS- -Q>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=jdpa-GrRU3I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > <http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=jdpa-GrRU3I>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10475
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 5/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Did Varney 'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or valve  gear
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a catalog showing a RTR Little Joe WITH valve
                                                                                                                                                                                    
gear for the princely sum of $12.95.  The kit is also
                                                                                                                                                                                    
shown but no valve gear is offered.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Bill:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thank you for the additional comment.  Armed with that, I pulled my, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "E&H Model Hobbies," 1956, catalog and looked up Central 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Valley.  Yup, just as you all said, there was the valve gear kit for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the Little Joe listed for $4.65.  I have very little early 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> literature, but I've saved this E&H catalog all these 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> years......since 1956 anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm on the track, (pun), for a Little Joe, so I guess I need to watch 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> for the Central Valley kit next.  (I suppose that will be like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> finding stardust)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> At 01:10 PM 5/6/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >John and Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >The valve gear kit was indeed from Central Valley.  I bought the kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >shortly after purchasing my Dockside in the early fifties.  The kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >was a little unusual in that it had a flat (almost) plate that fit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >between the original boiler and the cylinder block and had the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >corners turned down in such a way that it became the valve gear 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >hanger.  This was held in place by the same long screw that held the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >boiler to the frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Ingenious design that works very well, but flops around when you 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >take the engine apart.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > No. There was a valve gear kit that included the crosshead guides, I think
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > from Central Valley.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10476
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Did Varney 'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or valve  gear
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Joe and Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    You both jogged my memory and found it listed and shown in the 1957 Varney catalog, page 10, sold separately with catalog number 2641.  I believe The Varney Guide had reference to it as well. Here is the page:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.hoseeker.org/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1957pg10.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have a catalog showing a RTR Little Joe WITH valve
                                                                                                                                                                                    > gear for the princely sum of $12.95. The kit is also
                                                                                                                                                                                    > shown but no valve gear is offered.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson dbt@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Bill:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Thank you for the additional comment. Armed with that, I pulled my, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > "E&H Model Hobbies," 1956, catalog and looked up Central 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Valley. Yup, just as you all said, there was the valve gear kit for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the Little Joe listed for $4.65. I have very little early 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > literature, but I've saved this E&H catalog all these 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > years......since 1956 anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I'm on the track, (pun), for a Little Joe, so I guess I need to watch 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > for the Central Valley kit next. (I suppose that will be like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > finding stardust)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > At 01:10 PM 5/6/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >John and Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >The valve gear kit was indeed from Central Valley. I bought the kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >shortly after purchasing my Dockside in the early fifties. The kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >was a little unusual in that it had a flat (almost) plate that fit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >between the original boiler and the cylinder block and had the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >corners turned down in such a way that it became the valve gear 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >hanger. This was held in place by the same long screw that held the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >boiler to the frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >Ingenious design that works very well, but flops around when you 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >take the engine apart.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > No. There was a valve gear kit that included the crosshead guides, I think
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > from Central Valley.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10477
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 5/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Did Varney 'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or valve  gear
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I think they just look great with the valve gear!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2009 9:05:22 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Did Varney 'Little Joe ever have crosshead guides or valve gear?

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Joe and Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    You both jogged my memory and found it listed and shown in the 1957 Varney catalog, page 10, sold separately with catalog number 2641.  I believe The Varney Guide had reference to it as well. Here is the page:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.hoseeker .org/varneyinfor mation/varneycat alog1957pg10. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have a catalog showing a RTR Little Joe WITH valve
                                                                                                                                                                                    > gear for the princely sum of $12.95. The kit is also
                                                                                                                                                                                    > shown but no valve gear is offered.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Dennis Thompson dbt@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Bill:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Thank you for the additional comment. Armed with that, I pulled my, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > "E&H Model Hobbies," 1956, catalog and looked up Central 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Valley. Yup, just as you all said, there was the valve gear kit for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the Little Joe listed for $4.65. I have very little early 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > literature, but I've saved this E&H catalog all these 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > years......since 1956 anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I'm on the track, (pun), for a Little Joe, so I guess I need to
 watch 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > for the Central Valley kit next. (I suppose that will be like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > finding stardust)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > At 01:10 PM 5/6/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >John and Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >The valve gear kit was indeed from Central Valley. I bought the kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >shortly after purchasing my Dockside in the early fifties. The kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >was a little unusual in that it had a flat (almost) plate that fit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >between the original boiler and the cylinder block and had the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >corners turned down in such a way that it became the valve gear 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >hanger. This was held in place by the same long screw that held the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >boiler to the frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >Ingenious design that works very well, but flops around
 when you 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >take the engine apart.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > No. There was a valve gear kit that included the crosshead guides, I think
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > from Central Valley.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > > Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10478
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 5/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be listing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hey All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I normally do not do this, but this week I am listing three Vintage Mantua items on Ebay from my core collection. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have myself never seen listed correctly the Consolidation or the pre-war Atlantic. I have decided to sell one each of these as well as a Mighty Mite. I am not trying to sell them here, however I thought some of you might be interested in seeing what they go for. I would like, for myself, to see what they may bring, being correctly listed. In my ~5 years of selling on ebay, I have never seen the prewar atlantic sold. Sometime around Christmas there was a consolidation almost correctly listed. Amazingly it sold for ~$810 and did not even have the correct tender. It was a knapp/bowser brass tender. Mine will be correct. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Here are some pics:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Atlantic:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Consolidation:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Mighty Mite:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I spent yesterday evening getting all of them ready while listening to the Penns / Caps game...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    What a game!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Back to work...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10479
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Apology
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Steven S ,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
I must apologize to you for my mistake. I added a comment to your email and I 
should have sent a new Email. Your comments about AMT / American Model Toy and 
it's heirs was clear, concise and helpful. Nothing you said warranted a response 
to be replied using your name.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          My response was 
brought on by mention of the use of Athearn F-7 engines in Auburn-Kusan HO 
sets. Since I had made a "guesstimate"  about when the first AMT / American 
Model Toy came out, and I said guess, I did not want to run into a situation I 
had gone through before where I was supposed to have said something I 
didn't.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
The response was not against anything you brought up and should have been a new 
message.     Sorry.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10480
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 5/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney diesel switcher (was Did Varney 'Little Joe....)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 5/7/2009 2:34:31 PM EDT, W Jay W wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Here is the page:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I looked at the page; I have the frame and hood for the "1000 hp switcher" shown.  I have plans (dreams?) of finishing it with an Athearn drive and a Detail Associates thin-wall cab.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10481
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be listing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    If they go, that oughta put you pretty close to finishing the Mustang?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 9:03 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
listing
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hey All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I normally do not do this, but this week I am listing three Vintage Mantua 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
items on Ebay from my core collection.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have myself never seen listed correctly the Consolidation or the pre-war 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Atlantic. I have decided to sell one each of these as well as a Mighty Mite. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I am not trying to sell them here, however I thought some of you might be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
interested in seeing what they go for. I would like, for myself, to see what 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
they may bring, being correctly listed. In my ~5 years of selling on ebay, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
have never seen the prewar atlantic sold. Sometime around Christmas there 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
was a consolidation almost correctly listed. Amazingly it sold for ~$810 and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
did not even have the correct tender. It was a knapp/bowser brass tender. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mine will be correct.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Here are some pics:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Atlantic:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Consolidation:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mighty Mite:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I spent yesterday evening getting all of them ready while listening to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Penns / Caps game...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
What a game!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Back to work...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sean 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10482
						From: Russ Shiel
						Date: 5/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    H'lo all! This reefer arrived with a couple of Mainline/Athearn metal cars this week. I haven't been able to track it down...ID help would be appreciated! Apologies for poor images...camera operator still dealing with too-smart camera...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Santa Fe ice reefer #25963 BLT 12-29 WC 5-49 Ship Sante Fe all the way one side, The Chief famous daily streamliner West on the other. Looks like silk-screened wooden sides, diecast ends, cemented to a wooden carcass, diecast centre sill, full brake rigging, Kadee trucks and couplers. 'Rr11' is printed on the lower RHS...I thought maybe early Varney, but couldn't find it in the Greenberg book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks in anticipation!
                                                                                                                                                                                    Russ
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    The new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7: Faster, Safer, Easier. Get it now..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10483
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 5/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be listing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Unfortunately no in the long term, but it will help greatly in the immediate near future. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The sad part is.. I am as picky with my stang as I am with the detail of my vintage trains... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2009 6:55:10 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be listing

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    If they go, that oughta put you pretty close to finishing the Mustang?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 9:03 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    listing

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hey All,

                                                                                                                                                                                    I normally do not do this, but this week I am listing three Vintage Mantua 
                                                                                                                                                                                    items on Ebay from my core collection.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have myself never seen listed correctly the Consolidation or the pre-war 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Atlantic. I have decided to sell one each of these as well as a Mighty Mite. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I am not trying to sell them here, however I thought some of you might be
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    interested in seeing what they go for. I would like, for myself, to see what 
                                                                                                                                                                                    they may bring, being correctly listed. In my ~5 years of selling on ebay, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    have never seen the prewar atlantic sold. Sometime around Christmas there 
                                                                                                                                                                                    was a consolidation almost correctly listed. Amazingly it sold for ~$810 and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    did not even have the correct tender. It was a knapp/bowser brass tender. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mine will be correct.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Here are some pics:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Atlantic:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Consolidation:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Mighty Mite:

                                                                                                                                                                                    I spent yesterday evening getting all of them ready while listening to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Penns / Caps game...

                                                                                                                                                                                    What a game!

                                                                                                                                                                                    Back to work...

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean


                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10484
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Silver Streak by Walthers, Kit No. 929-422 ca. early to mid 1980's,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ca. 1982 after Walthers had bought the Silver Streak they issued a 7 car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Santa Fe Slogan Series".  It should also have cast plastic ends.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Russ Shiel" <rshiel01@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 5:58 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Santa Fe reefer ID [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
H'lo all! This reefer arrived with a couple of Mainline/Athearn metal cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
this week. I haven't been able to track it down...ID help would be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
appreciated! Apologies for poor images...camera operator still dealing with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
too-smart camera...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Santa Fe ice reefer #25963 BLT 12-29 WC 5-49 Ship Sante Fe all the way one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
side, The Chief famous daily streamliner West on the other. Looks like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
silk-screened wooden sides, diecast ends, cemented to a wooden carcass, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
diecast centre sill, full brake rigging, Kadee trucks and couplers. 'Rr11' 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
is printed on the lower RHS...I thought maybe early Varney, but couldn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
find it in the Greenberg book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks in anticipation!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Russ
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      The new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7: Faster, Safer, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Easier. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10485
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Russ S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Since no one else has weighed in all evening, and would not want you to lose sleep over it (LOL), believe it to be Silver Streak.  Besides the graphics of both sides matching, if you look closely at the lower edge of the sides, you should be able to detect they are made from a thin plywood (3 ply).  Even in the Walthers era, (I'm looking at 1982 catalog here, p. 73) they, SS, had 7 different sets of sides for AT&SF. Yours would be Walthers # 929-422 "Chief West"
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yours might also date from before Silver Streak was owned by Walthers, or afterward by its current owner YOHP, who still ofers the car kit in current production #444:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.yeoldehuffnpuff.com/sstreakkits.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Some of today's kits may have soft white metal detail castings, while during the original and Walthers days, castings were of hard diecast Zamac.  Someone more familiar with them can date yours more accurately than I, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
While your example looks to be complete, for anyone looking for new replacement detail parts, Ye Old Huff n' Puff still sells them direct as well as later editions of many Main Line (including poultry cars!) and AC/L-W kits too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> H'lo all! This reefer arrived with a couple of Mainline/Athearn metal cars this week. I haven't been able to track it down...ID help would be appreciated! Apologies for poor images...camera operator still dealing with too-smart camera...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Santa Fe ice reefer #25963 BLT 12-29 WC 5-49 Ship Sante Fe all the way one side, The Chief famous daily streamliner West on the other. Looks like silk-screened wooden sides, diecast ends, cemented to a wooden carcass, diecast centre sill, full brake rigging, Kadee trucks and couplers. 'Rr11' is printed on the lower RHS...I thought maybe early Varney, but couldn't find it in the Greenberg book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks in anticipation!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Russ
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       The new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7: Faster, Safer, Easier.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10486
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Don D.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
You were ahead of me by two minutes! Mine came from a complete older lot, would be Walthers era #929-423 "Super Chief" but seems older as it does not have the molded plastic ends with integral fascia, looks like embossed card, and that was why I thought the series could have pre-dated Walthers ownership.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Silver Streak by Walthers, Kit No. 929-422 ca. early to mid 1980's,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ca. 1982 after Walthers had bought the Silver Streak they issued a 7 car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "Santa Fe Slogan Series".  It should also have cast plastic ends.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "Russ Shiel" <rshiel01@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 5:58 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Santa Fe reefer ID [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> H'lo all! This reefer arrived with a couple of Mainline/Athearn metal cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> this week. I haven't been able to track it down...ID help would be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> appreciated! Apologies for poor images...camera operator still dealing with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> too-smart camera...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Santa Fe ice reefer #25963 BLT 12-29 WC 5-49 Ship Sante Fe all the way one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> side, The Chief famous daily streamliner West on the other. Looks like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> silk-screened wooden sides, diecast ends, cemented to a wooden carcass, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> diecast centre sill, full brake rigging, Kadee trucks and couplers. 'Rr11' 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> is printed on the lower RHS...I thought maybe early Varney, but couldn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> find it in the Greenberg book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks in anticipation!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Russ
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       The new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7: Faster, Safer, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Easier.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10487
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    However the photo on the YOHP sight is actually of kit no. 445. :-(  (On 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Walthers' website, the same error exists although they don't vcarry it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
anymore.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
My comment about the plastic ends is from the 1984 Walthers' book, not sure 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
when they changed from die-cast to plastic.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm not sure, but every picture I've seen of pre-Walthers production carries 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a different car number.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 11:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Russ S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Since no one else has weighed in all evening, and would not want you to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> lose sleep over it (LOL), believe it to be Silver Streak.  Besides the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> graphics of both sides matching, if you look closely at the lower edge of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the sides, you should be able to detect they are made from a thin plywood 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (3 ply).  Even in the Walthers era, (I'm looking at 1982 catalog here, p. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 73) they, SS, had 7 different sets of sides for AT&SF. Yours would be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Walthers # 929-422 "Chief West"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yours might also date from before Silver Streak was owned by Walthers, or 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> afterward by its current owner YOHP, who still ofers the car kit in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> current production #444:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.yeoldehuffnpuff.com/sstreakkits.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Some of today's kits may have soft white metal detail castings, while 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> during the original and Walthers days, castings were of hard diecast 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Zamac.  Someone more familiar with them can date yours more accurately 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> than I, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> While your example looks to be complete, for anyone looking for new 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> replacement detail parts, Ye Old Huff n' Puff still sells them direct as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> well as later editions of many Main Line (including poultry cars!) and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> AC/L-W kits too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> H'lo all! This reefer arrived with a couple of Mainline/Athearn metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> cars this week. I haven't been able to track it down...ID help would be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> appreciated! Apologies for poor images...camera operator still dealing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> with too-smart camera...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Santa Fe ice reefer #25963 BLT 12-29 WC 5-49 Ship Sante Fe all the way 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> one side, The Chief famous daily streamliner West on the other. Looks 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> like silk-screened wooden sides, diecast ends, cemented to a wooden 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> carcass, diecast centre sill, full brake rigging, Kadee trucks and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> couplers. 'Rr11' is printed on the lower RHS...I thought maybe early 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Varney, but couldn't find it in the Greenberg book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Thanks in anticipation!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Russ
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>       The new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7: Faster, Safer, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Easier. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10488
						From: Chris B
						Date: 5/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be listing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean, if having owned way too many vintage cars and trucks in my youth is any measure, 

                                                                                                                                                                                    and having "finished" way too few of those projects is the truth,

                                                                                                                                                                                    then it might be true that finishing a restoration is similar to finishing a layout:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Picky guy's projects are never finished, the closer you get to done the higher your standards get.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Besides, it gets harder every year to find original NOS spare tires with no wear and the original air!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2009 9:45:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be listing

                                                                                                                                                                                    









    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Unfortunately no in the long term, but it will help greatly in the immediate near future. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The sad part is.. I am as picky with my stang as I am with the detail of my vintage trains... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2009 6:55:10 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be listing

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    If they go, that oughta put you pretty close to finishing the Mustang?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 9:03 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    listing

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hey All,

                                                                                                                                                                                    I normally do not do this, but this week I am listing three Vintage Mantua 
                                                                                                                                                                                    items on Ebay from my core collection.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have myself never seen listed correctly the Consolidation or the pre-war 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Atlantic. I have decided to sell one each of these as well as a Mighty Mite. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I am not trying to sell them here, however I thought some of you
 might be
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    interested in seeing what they go for. I would like, for myself, to see what 
                                                                                                                                                                                    they may bring, being correctly listed. In my ~5 years of selling on ebay, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    have never seen the prewar atlantic sold. Sometime around Christmas there 
                                                                                                                                                                                    was a consolidation almost correctly listed. Amazingly it sold for ~$810 and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    did not even have the correct tender. It was a knapp/bowser brass tender. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mine will be correct.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Here are some pics:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Atlantic:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Consolidation:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Mighty Mite:

                                                                                                                                                                                    I spent yesterday evening getting all of them ready while listening to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Penns / Caps game...

                                                                                                                                                                                    What a game!

                                                                                                                                                                                    Back to work...

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean


                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10489
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 5/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be listing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Got to have the original air too! That is certainly a must!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Actually, my pickiness is more aligned with imperfections rather than numbers matching originality. Everything on my car, however is original to the year... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The body is as perfect as it can be and the paint job is show quality and much better than original..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    much like my trains.. You do not mix the brass & cast Mantua pacific cab, drivers, pilot, pilot & trailing trucks with those of the later models...  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    bad example, I know, but trying to keep this email within topic.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 9:07:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be listing

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean, if having owned way too many vintage cars and trucks in my youth is any measure, 

                                                                                                                                                                                    and having "finished" way too few of those projects is the truth,

                                                                                                                                                                                    then it might be true that finishing a restoration is similar to finishing a layout:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Picky guy's projects are never finished, the closer you get to done the higher your standards get.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Besides, it gets harder every year to find original NOS spare tires with no wear and the original air!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2009 9:45:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be listing

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Unfortunately no in the long term, but it will help greatly in the immediate near future. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The sad part is.. I am as picky with my stang as I am with the detail of my vintage trains... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2009 6:55:10 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be listing

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    If they go, that oughta put you pretty close to finishing the Mustang?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 9:03 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Some ebay vintage Pre-War Mantua engines I will be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    listing

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hey All,

                                                                                                                                                                                    I normally do not do this, but this week I am listing three Vintage Mantua 
                                                                                                                                                                                    items on Ebay from my core collection.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have myself never seen listed correctly the Consolidation or the pre-war 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Atlantic. I have decided to sell one each of these as well as a Mighty Mite. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I am not trying to sell them here, however I thought some of you might be
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    interested in seeing what they go for. I would like, for myself, to see what 
                                                                                                                                                                                    they may bring, being correctly listed. In my ~5 years of selling on ebay, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    have never seen the prewar atlantic sold. Sometime around Christmas there 
                                                                                                                                                                                    was a consolidation almost correctly listed. Amazingly it sold for ~$810 and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    did not even have the correct tender. It was a knapp/bowser brass tender. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mine will be correct.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Here are some pics:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Atlantic:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Consolidation:

                                                                                                                                                                                    Mighty Mite:

                                                                                                                                                                                    I spent yesterday evening getting all of them ready while listening to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Penns / Caps game...

                                                                                                                                                                                    What a game!

                                                                                                                                                                                    Back to work...

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean




                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10490
						From: Jay Wanczyk
						Date: 5/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Vintage HO Autos, was Pre-War Mantua
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean, & All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Since you mentioned your "vintage stang", thought I'd bring it back a little farther away in time to some favorite vintage accessory HO scale contemporary cars of the 1940's once sold by Dyna Models during the late 1940's and early 1950's in addition to the ancient Maxwells and Packards (and later model Ford pick-up) Dyna kept in their line until at least the late 1990's.  These once contemporary '40's car models were soon dropped, as I guess by the mid-1950's they were "just old cars."  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The "slush cast" white metal Buicks, Chryslers and Desotos looked good, though in my opionion the Chevy panel truck was a bit off.  The were part of the regular Dyna accessory details line and were not a seperate or a toy car series and they came in those little cardboard boxes.  I could put together a list if anyone else is interested.  They do not show up too often on eBay and bidding gets competative as both Vintage HO model railroad accessory collectors as well as old car collectors go for them.  I have attached a photo that I believe is of the lot I finally won at a reasonable price.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10491
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I picked up a locomotive that mystifies me, (which doesn't take much 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
!).  No i.d.; and sold as no i.d.  I have not yet dis-assembled 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
anything, so these are my first, external observations: Cast Brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
boiler; I think the cab is separate, and also cast.  She is a 4-8-2; 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
alligator crossheads.  Cast, separate smokebox cover with center 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
headlight, bell mounted on front of smokebox cover, but up top.  Long 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
overhang from back of rear driver to end of locomotive, which results 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
in a long, somewhat slender trailing truck frame.  One piece cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
brass tender which includes air brake cylinder and, of all things, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
what appears to be a water scoop.  (I haven't seen those replicated very often)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
In viewing the engine broadside, the worm gear sits horizontal over 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
second driver, with cast, (zamac?) bearing on each end.  (So 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
apparently a dedicated worm gear housing)  Bearings look odd, almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
like the old, round, "split-shot," fishing weights used to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
look.  Behind the rearmost bearing the motor drive shaft can be seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
continuing, horizontal, rearward into the firebox area.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Locomotive handrails present in the usual places, but a second, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
four-stanchion-each-side set of handrails exist near the top of the boiler
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Boiler contains a metal weight, (which is loose).  All boiler details 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
are cast-on.    I see NO identifying marks on this locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Without a photo, this is not much for you all to go on.  This one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
seems well built, and old.  I will ask if anyone has any tips as to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
where manufacturer's i.d. might be hidden.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis, the newly afflicted............
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10492
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dennis,  Lucky you! Try this link, there is much more paperwork at HOseeker! You have found one of the all time classic HO Steam Locomotives, and one with a interesting history; good to hear you have the original brass tender too.  Instead of telling more about it, I'll let you have the fun of discovery and after looking over the information available there, then search out the name here as well.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosionBowser/bowserbrass482mountain.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I picked up a locomotive that mystifies me, (which doesn't take much 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > !). No i.d.; and sold as no i.d. I have not yet dis-assembled 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > anything, so these are my first, external observations: Cast Brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > boiler; I think the cab is separate, and also cast. She is a 4-8-2; 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > alligator crossheads. Cast, separate smokebox cover with center 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > headlight, bell mounted on front of smokebox cover, but up top. Long 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > overhang from back of rear driver to end of locomotive, which results 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > in a long, somewhat slender trailing truck frame. One piece cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > brass tender which includes air brake cylinder and, of all things, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > what appears to be a water scoop. (I haven't seen those replicated very often)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > In viewing the engine broadside, the worm gear sits horizontal over 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > second driver, with cast, (zamac?) bearing on each end. (So 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > apparently a dedicated worm gear housing) Bearings look odd, almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > like the old, round, "split-shot," fishing weights used to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > look. Behind the rearmost bearing the motor drive shaft can be seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > continuing, horizontal, rearward into the firebox area.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Locomotive handrails present in the usual places, but a second, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > four-stanchion-each-side set of handrails exist near the top of the boiler
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Boiler contains a metal weight, (which is loose). All boiler details 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > are cast-on. I see NO identifying marks on this locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Without a photo, this is not much for you all to go on. This one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > seems well built, and old. I will ask if anyone has any tips as to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > where manufacturer's i.d. might be hidden.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dennis, the newly afflicted............
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10493
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        From what you describe and what 
W Jay W suspects I will agree that it is most likely the Bowser ( Bill Bowser / 
Redlands Calif. ) 4-8-2 Mountain.  The description of what would be the 
original brass tender (with the cast water scoop and air brake cylinder) 
fits.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            There 
are two things that don't. One is the original bodies had the cab as part of the 
boiler casting, one piece. This could be separate from somebody working on it. 
The other is what you describe as a metal weight in the boiler that is loose. 
The original cast brass boiler was very heavy and didn't need a weight. Again 
someone could have modified it somewhat. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           Everything else matches but 
there is one thing you didn't mention and that is the type of drivers. Are they 
cast with the little round holes (forget the name Bo-Pox ?) or are they 
brass with spokes. The reason I say this was the original cast brass Mountain 
was made pre war by Knapp (same engine boiler, same tender) however the Knapp 
engine had a 6 volt motor (so be careful) and had spoked  brass 
drivers that had a major problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        That is why Bill Bowser / 
Redlands CA bought the Knapp Mountain out. He changed the motor to 12 volt 
(drive still looked the same) but he changed to the cast drivers to correct a 
shorting problem and changed the valve gear. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 5:26 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] New (old) Lokie i.d. 
  puzzle to ask about
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I picked up a locomotive that mystifies me, (which doesn't take much 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    !). No i.d.; and sold as no i.d. I have not yet dis-assembled 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    anything, so these are my first, external observations: Cast Brass 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    boiler; I think the cab is separate, and also cast. She is a 4-8-2; 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    alligator crossheads. Cast, separate smokebox cover with center 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    headlight, bell mounted on front of smokebox cover, but up top. Long 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    overhang from back of rear driver to end of locomotive, which results 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    in a long, somewhat slender trailing truck frame. One piece cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                    brass 
  tender which includes air brake cylinder and, of all things, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    what appears 
  to be a water scoop. (I haven't seen those replicated very often)

                                                                                                                                                                                    In 
  viewing the engine broadside, the worm gear sits horizontal over 
                                                                                                                                                                                    second 
  driver, with cast, (zamac?) bearing on each end. (So 
                                                                                                                                                                                    apparently a 
  dedicated worm gear housing) Bearings look odd, almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                    like the old, 
  round, "split-shot, " fishing weights used to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    look. Behind the 
  rearmost bearing the motor drive shaft can be seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    continuing, horizontal, 
  rearward into the firebox area.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Locomotive handrails present in the 
  usual places, but a second, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    four-stanchion- each-side set of handrails 
  exist near the top of the boiler

                                                                                                                                                                                    Boiler contains a metal weight, (which 
  is loose). All boiler details 
                                                                                                                                                                                    are cast-on. I see NO identifying marks on 
  this locomotive.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Without a photo, this is not much for you all to go 
  on. This one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    seems well built, and old. I will ask if anyone has any tips 
  as to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    where manufacturer' s i.d. might be hidden.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis, the 
  newly afflicted... .........

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10494
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Don D., Russ S, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Talk about research for the obscure information!  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I found reference this evening that Silver Streak produced at least five versions of the Santa Fe reefers 30+ years before Walthers; They are individually listed on page 39 of the Model Railroad Equipment Corp.'s 1950 catalog, but as is typical of Webster's Catalogs, no manufacturer's item number is given and there are no illustrations to record car numbers from. I am going to theorize that the last two of the seven models that Walthers produced in the 1980's were also reintroduced, based on earlier Silver Streak models and will watch for a listing.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The five cars listed in 1950 were: Chief (West), El Capitan, Grand Canyon, Scout and Super Chief, which correspond to five of the seven later editions by Walthers (both manufacturers had the opposite sides, per prototype, with the identical "...all the way" slogan plus route map;  the remaing two had the slogan, but no route map).  And Ye Olde Huff 'n Puff catalogs all seven cars as still in production today. Again, different stock nubers and we do not yet know if they changed the road numbers from Walthers.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Both the 1949 original Silver Streak and later True-Scale Silver Streak instructions on HOseeker note that the ends were first made of a pressed composition material they called "comprestic" ends (with no integral fascia).  So it seems that is a good identification between original and Walther's editions, as Don noted that the Walters catalog stated that their models had Styrene - simulated wood sheathed ends with facia and pre-drilled for grab irons.  And Don noted different road numbers for Walthers, perhaps an ATSF model specialist has a list. But absent orignal boxes and a list of road nembers, end material is a key to telling between the two. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    If anyone is interested, I can begin to keep and post a list of the models by manufacturing era: A) Silver Streak original, B) Walthers and C) Huff Puff, by manufacturer's catalog numbers and road numbers.  Just let me know what you have when you think of it or find them. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Amazing to realize that the same basic Silver Streak reefer kits, with few changes, have been in production for 60 years, 1949-2009! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    And  actually, finding all seven, no matter which firm manufactured them would be neat to run as a block on the layout, and in the end that is what it is all about.  Whew!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > However the photo on the YOHP sight is actually of kit no. 445. :-( (On 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Walthers' website, the same error exists although they don't vcarry it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > anymore.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > My comment about the plastic ends is from the 1984 Walthers' book, not sure 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > when they changed from die-cast to plastic.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'm not sure, but every picture I've seen of pre-Walthers production carries 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > a different car number.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    > don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: "the_plainsman" the_plainsman@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 11:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Hi Russ S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Since no one else has weighed in all evening, and would not want you to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > lose sleep over it (LOL), believe it to be Silver Streak. Besides the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > graphics of both sides matching, if you look closely at the lower edge of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > the sides, you should be able to detect they are made from a thin plywood 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > (3 ply). Even in the Walthers era, (I'm looking at 1982 catalog here, p. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 73) they, SS, had 7 different sets of sides for AT&SF. Yours would be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Walthers # 929-422 "Chief West"
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Yours might also date from before Silver Streak was owned by Walthers, or 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > afterward by its current owner YOHP, who still ofers the car kit in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > current production #444:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > http://www.yeoldehuffnpuff.com/sstreakkits.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Some of today's kits may have soft white metal detail castings, while 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > during the original and Walthers days, castings were of hard diecast 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Zamac. Someone more familiar with them can date yours more accurately 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > than I, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > While your example looks to be complete, for anyone looking for new 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > replacement detail parts, Ye Old Huff n' Puff still sells them direct as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > well as later editions of many Main Line (including poultry cars!) and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > AC/L-W kits too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel rshiel01@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >> H'lo all! This reefer arrived with a couple of Mainline/Athearn metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >> cars this week. I haven't been able to track it down...ID help would be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >> appreciated! Apologies for poor images...camera operator still dealing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >> with too-smart camera...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >> Santa Fe ice reefer #25963 BLT 12-29 WC 5-49 Ship Sante Fe all the way 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >> one side, The Chief famous daily streamliner West on the other. Looks 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >> like silk-screened wooden sides, diecast ends, cemented to a wooden 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >> carcass, diecast centre sill, full brake rigging, Kadee trucks and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >> couplers. 'Rr11' is printed on the lower RHS...I thought maybe early 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >> Varney, but couldn't find it in the Greenberg book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >> Thanks in anticipation!
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >> Russ
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >> The new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7: Faster, Safer, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >> Easier.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10495
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H, Dennis described drive train bearings "look odd, almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
like the old, round, "split-shot," fishing weights" and that is what said "Bowser Chassis" to me.  The seperate cab was troubling, but I have seen many unfortunate modifications done to old locomotives that must have been good ideas to the modeler at the time. Let's see if he can match all of his find to the drawings, or if perhaps someone has possibly used a different boiler and cab on a Bowser Mountain chassis with Bowser Mountain tender.  Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     From what you describe and what W Jay W suspects I will agree that it is most likely the Bowser ( Bill Bowser / Redlands Calif. ) 4-8-2 Mountain.  The description of what would be the original brass tender (with the cast water scoop and air brake cylinder) fits.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         There are two things that don't. One is the original bodies had the cab as part of the boiler casting, one piece. This could be separate from somebody working on it. The other is what you describe as a metal weight in the boiler that is loose. The original cast brass boiler was very heavy and didn't need a weight. Again someone could have modified it somewhat. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        Everything else matches but there is one thing you didn't mention and that is the type of drivers. Are they cast with the little round holes (forget the name Bo-Pox ?) or are they brass with spokes. The reason I say this was the original cast brass Mountain was made pre war by Knapp (same engine boiler, same tender) however the Knapp engine had a 6 volt motor (so be careful) and had spoked  brass drivers that had a major problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     That is why Bill Bowser / Redlands CA bought the Knapp Mountain out. He changed the motor to 12 volt (drive still looked the same) but he changed to the cast drivers to correct a shorting problem and changed the valve gear. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: Dennis Thompson 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 5:26 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I picked up a locomotive that mystifies me, (which doesn't take much 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   !). No i.d.; and sold as no i.d. I have not yet dis-assembled 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   anything, so these are my first, external observations: Cast Brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   boiler; I think the cab is separate, and also cast. She is a 4-8-2; 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   alligator crossheads. Cast, separate smokebox cover with center 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   headlight, bell mounted on front of smokebox cover, but up top. Long 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   overhang from back of rear driver to end of locomotive, which results 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   in a long, somewhat slender trailing truck frame. One piece cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   brass tender which includes air brake cylinder and, of all things, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   what appears to be a water scoop. (I haven't seen those replicated very often)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   In viewing the engine broadside, the worm gear sits horizontal over 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   second driver, with cast, (zamac?) bearing on each end. (So 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   apparently a dedicated worm gear housing) Bearings look odd, almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   like the old, round, "split-shot," fishing weights used to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   look. Behind the rearmost bearing the motor drive shaft can be seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   continuing, horizontal, rearward into the firebox area.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Locomotive handrails present in the usual places, but a second, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   four-stanchion-each-side set of handrails exist near the top of the boiler
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Boiler contains a metal weight, (which is loose). All boiler details 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   are cast-on. I see NO identifying marks on this locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Without a photo, this is not much for you all to go on. This one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   seems well built, and old. I will ask if anyone has any tips as to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   where manufacturer's i.d. might be hidden.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Dennis, the newly afflicted............
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10496
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 5/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: glitch
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm trying this on several sites as I am having an 
email problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Apparently an old email address that I haven't used 
in almost two years--since the ISP closed down--has been showing up as a return 
address.  As a result I seem to be not receiving replies.  If you have 
been clicking "reply to sender" and seeing the reply address < glenn476@...  > come up, please 
delete that address from your address book.  TCO is long gone.  The 
only current address I use is:  glenn476@...   

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    If you get the TCO address please let me 
know.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Glenn Joesten
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10497
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H. In re-reading your previous post on this ID, one point you mentioned registered with me this time, you said that "Bill Bowser...He changed the motor to 12 volt (drive still looked the same)..."   So does that mean what I thought was a Bill Bowser innovation, the drive, the unique shaft and gear support bearings, were really Knapp's design?  If so, I just learned something new and important.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     From what you describe and what W Jay W suspects I will agree that it is most likely the Bowser ( Bill Bowser / Redlands Calif. ) 4-8-2 Mountain.  The description of what would be the original brass tender (with the cast water scoop and air brake cylinder) fits.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         There are two things that don't. One is the original bodies had the cab as part of the boiler casting, one piece. This could be separate from somebody working on it. The other is what you describe as a metal weight in the boiler that is loose. The original cast brass boiler was very heavy and didn't need a weight. Again someone could have modified it somewhat. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        Everything else matches but there is one thing you didn't mention and that is the type of drivers. Are they cast with the little round holes (forget the name Bo-Pox ?) or are they brass with spokes. The reason I say this was the original cast brass Mountain was made pre war by Knapp (same engine boiler, same tender) however the Knapp engine had a 6 volt motor (so be careful) and had spoked  brass drivers that had a major problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     That is why Bill Bowser / Redlands CA bought the Knapp Mountain out. He changed the motor to 12 volt (drive still looked the same) but he changed to the cast drivers to correct a shorting problem and changed the valve gear. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: Dennis Thompson 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 5:26 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I picked up a locomotive that mystifies me, (which doesn't take much 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   !). No i.d.; and sold as no i.d. I have not yet dis-assembled 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   anything, so these are my first, external observations: Cast Brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   boiler; I think the cab is separate, and also cast. She is a 4-8-2; 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   alligator crossheads. Cast, separate smokebox cover with center 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   headlight, bell mounted on front of smokebox cover, but up top. Long 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   overhang from back of rear driver to end of locomotive, which results 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   in a long, somewhat slender trailing truck frame. One piece cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   brass tender which includes air brake cylinder and, of all things, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   what appears to be a water scoop. (I haven't seen those replicated very often)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   In viewing the engine broadside, the worm gear sits horizontal over 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   second driver, with cast, (zamac?) bearing on each end. (So 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   apparently a dedicated worm gear housing) Bearings look odd, almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   like the old, round, "split-shot," fishing weights used to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   look. Behind the rearmost bearing the motor drive shaft can be seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   continuing, horizontal, rearward into the firebox area.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Locomotive handrails present in the usual places, but a second, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   four-stanchion-each-side set of handrails exist near the top of the boiler
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Boiler contains a metal weight, (which is loose). All boiler details 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   are cast-on. I see NO identifying marks on this locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Without a photo, this is not much for you all to go on. This one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   seems well built, and old. I will ask if anyone has any tips as to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   where manufacturer's i.d. might be hidden.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Dennis, the newly afflicted............
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10498
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 5/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: New Tool......... an USB mini-microscope!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm on a good number of quite different lists, so this will be seen on  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a few of those.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm a bit of a tool buff and ................
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I just stumbled upon at my local hobby shop, and brought home, a $35  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
egg of a microscope that plugs into the USB port of both Windows and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mac computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I've long wanted a 'scope to check out if my tools were chipped, just  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
dull-edged, or even ground off-center. I have found more typical- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
looking computer microscopes that sold for $100 and more. So I just  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
never broke down and bought one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
It's a conservative 35-x magnification, which is fine enough for the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
tools, printing, trying to discover one more tiny detail in an image,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and modeling uses I want to use it on. It's a tool that will be darned  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
handy for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I had one start-up problem, the size of the cd they include with the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
package. It's a mini-cd and as such is -DANGEROUS- to use with a slot- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
loading cd/dvd drive. The mini-cd's will fly loose in one of those  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
newer drives and jam in the mechanism. I've seen warnings about using  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the like in that kind of drive and a bunch of complaints over the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
years from people that learned they had to have their computer  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
serviced to get a mini-disk out of the slot-dives.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Wouldn't you know it, my last three computers only had that sort of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
slot-feed cd/dvd drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
So if your computer has a slot-load drive, don't risk putting one of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the smaller mini-cd's into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I emailed the maker for a link to download the software and they  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
returned an email with the link to it, to me in only a few minutes.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
That is somewhat buried on their product page. But thankfully it's  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
there to get around the mini-disk they package.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The zOrb comes in three different colors. My hobby shop had an Orange  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
one. I think I actually bought it before they had the chance to put it  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
on their shelves. I probably would have chosen the same color if the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
store had more of them. I like having high-visibility tools that are  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
easier to find around the house and workshop.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The product link......
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.carsonoptical.com/Pocket_Microscopes/Pocket_Microscopes/MM-480O
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And a short video of it in use.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Ij8URBdZA
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10499
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 5/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: New Tool......... an USB mini-microscope!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm on a good number of quite different lists, so this will be seen on  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a few of those.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm a bit of a tool buff and ................
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I just stumbled upon at my local hobby shop, and brought home, a $35  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
egg of a microscope that plugs into the USB port of both Windows and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mac computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I've long wanted a 'scope to check out if my tools were chipped, just  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
dull-edged, or even ground off-center. I have found more typical- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
looking computer microscopes that sold for $100 and more. So I just  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
never broke down and bought one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
It's a conservative 35-x magnification, which is fine enough for the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
tools, printing, trying to discover one more tiny detail in an image,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and modeling uses I want to use it on. It's a tool that will be darned  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
handy for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I had one start-up problem, the size of the cd they include with the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
package. It's a mini-cd and as such is -DANGEROUS- to use with a slot- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
loading cd/dvd drive. The mini-cd's will fly loose in one of those  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
newer drives and jam in the mechanism. I've seen warnings about using  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the like in that kind of drive and a bunch of complaints over the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
years from people that learned they had to have their computer  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
serviced to get a mini-disk out of the slot-dives.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Wouldn't you know it, my last three computers only had that sort of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
slot-feed cd/dvd drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
So if your computer has a slot-load drive, don't risk putting one of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the smaller mini-cd's into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I emailed the maker for a link to download the software and they  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
returned an email with the link to it, to me in only a few minutes.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
That is somewhat buried on their product page. But thankfully it's  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
there to get around the mini-disk they package.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The zOrb comes in three different colors. My hobby shop had an Orange  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
one. I think I actually bought it before they had the chance to put it  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
on their shelves. I probably would have chosen the same color if the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
store had more of them. I like having high-visibility tools that are  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
easier to find around the house and workshop.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The product link......
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.carsonoptical.com/Pocket_Microscopes/Pocket_Microscopes/MM-480O
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And a short video of it in use.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Ij8URBdZA
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10500
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 5/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> If anyone is interested, I can begin to keep and post a list of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> models by manufacturing era: A) Silver Streak original, B) Walthers and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> C) Huff Puff, by manufacturer's catalog numbers and road numbers.  Just 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> let me know what you have when you think of it or find them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                        Where do Pacific HO and Tru-Scale fall in that mix? I have some kits 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with those manufacturers on the box. The boxes are identical other than 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the name change, and both manufacturers were in San Dimas, CA.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
If flying is so safe then why do they call the airport the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
terminal?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10501
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Rick, J.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hal Prendergast, owner of Silver Streak had financial problems right in the middle of creating injection molded F7 A&B units and his business asssets were sold at liquidation aution in mid-1953 (Athearn Guide, P32.) The buyer was Irv Athearn, who had the work completed on the F-7's and they became the famous Globe units, later Athearn. My understanding is that is when all of Silver Streak became an Athearn property, but it was held and operated as a seperate unit.  But I'm not sure.  Is that when the Pacific HO name was coined?  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The Athearn Guide is clear that either in late 1959 or early 1960, Athearn sold Silver Streak craft kit line as well as the Athearn metal kit lines to G&G Hobby Supply in San Dimas, CA. Owned by Menzies, the firm changed its name to Pacific HO in 1962, but later changed again to Menzies. (Athearn guide p 37.) I'm not sure if they took on the existing Pacific HO name at that time, or created it themselves. Menzies sold Silver Streak/Pacific HO to Walthers in 1970, and Walthers later sold Silver Streak to Ye Olde Huff n' Puff.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'll keep an eye out for information when I go though my magazines, but I'm sure someone here will be able confirm or correct my statements and will be able to tell us exactly how True Scale, which also went though several owners, figures in. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > If anyone is interested, I can begin to keep and post a list of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > models by manufacturing era: A) Silver Streak original, B) Walthers and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > C) Huff Puff, by manufacturer's catalog numbers and road numbers.  Just 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > let me know what you have when you think of it or find them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Where do Pacific HO and Tru-Scale fall in that mix? I have some kits 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> with those manufacturers on the box. The boxes are identical other than 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the name change, and both manufacturers were in San Dimas, CA.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> If flying is so safe then why do they call the airport the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> terminal?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10502
						From: Rhbale@aol.com
						Date: 5/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello Plainsman...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    It sounds strange to address you that way but I don't know your 
name.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I was interested in your findings on the heritage of the Silver Streak 
Santa Fe reefer. Can you fill me in on Menzies, what kind of business it 
was and who was involved?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Also, do you know who the principals were of G&G Hobby Supply of 
San Dimas? Were they in anyway associated with G. F. Harbin Hobby 
Distributors from the same small (tiny) town? Harbin was owned by 
August (Augie) Kniff who also owned Tru Scale. He was closely associated with 
Tom Ayres and purchased Ayres Scale Models when Tom went full time into 
advertising and promoting various model railroad manufacturers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks in advance,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Carlsbad, CA
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10503
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about; Jim/Jay/et.al.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
Thanks everyone.  More and more interesting all the time.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
First, this, "may," not be a separate cab.  I've been
buried in outside obligations almost all the time since this model showed
up.  So I need to really look closer as soon as I can break
loose.  If so, it would fit your conclusion better.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim, these are not box-pok, (?) drivers.  These are nicely made
spoked drivers, all flanged.  I am going to risk guessing these are
not brass drivers, which would remove this model from the pre-war driver
problem you mentioned.  BTW, what problem did the brass drivers
have?

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Next, how does one tell if the motor is 6V or 12V?  I had look
quickly at the current Bowser website's 4-8-2 and, while it looks very
close, it doesn't seem quite the same, (difference in minor
details).

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Now off to look at JW's link.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 02:58 PM 5/8/2009, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dennis,  Lucky you! Try
this link, there is much more paperwork at HOseeker! You have found one
of the all time classic HO Steam Locomotives, and one with a interesting
history; good to hear you have the original brass tender too. 
Instead of telling more about it, I'll let you have the fun of discovery
and after looking over the information available there, then search out
the name here as well.  W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    

http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosionBowser/bowserbrass482mountain.jpg


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...>
wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I picked up a locomotive that mystifies me, (which doesn't take much

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> !). No i.d.; and sold as no i.d. I have not yet dis-assembled 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> anything, so these are my first, external observations: Cast Brass

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> boiler; I think the cab is separate, and also cast. She is a 4-8-2;

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> alligator crossheads. Cast, separate smokebox cover with center

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> headlight, bell mounted on front of smokebox cover, but up top. Long

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> overhang from back of rear driver to end of locomotive, which
results 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in a long, somewhat slender trailing truck frame. One piece cast

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> brass tender which includes air brake cylinder and, of all things,

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> what appears to be a water scoop. (I haven't seen those replicated
very often)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In viewing the engine broadside, the worm gear sits horizontal over

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> second driver, with cast, (zamac?) bearing on each end. (So 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> apparently a dedicated worm gear housing) Bearings look odd, almost

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> like the old, round, "split-shot," fishing weights used to

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> look. Behind the rearmost bearing the motor drive shaft can be seen

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> continuing, horizontal, rearward into the firebox area.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Locomotive handrails present in the usual places, but a second,

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> four-stanchion-each-side set of handrails exist near the top of the
boiler
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Boiler contains a metal weight, (which is loose). All boiler details

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> are cast-on. I see NO identifying marks on this locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Without a photo, this is not much for you all to go on. This one

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> seems well built, and old. I will ask if anyone has any tips as to

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> where manufacturer's i.d. might be hidden.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis, the newly afflicted............
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10504
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 5/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: New Tool......... an USB mini-microscope!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    OK Bauers,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I've got the message 9 times and haven't finished going through my emails yet!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The least you could have done is give the LHS name for us locals. Did I see you there Thursday?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm on a good number of quite different lists, so this will be seen on  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> a few of those.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm a bit of a tool buff and ................
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I just stumbled upon at my local hobby shop, and brought home, a $35  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> egg of a microscope that plugs into the USB port of both Windows and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mac computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I've long wanted a 'scope to check out if my tools were chipped, just  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> dull-edged, or even ground off-center. I have found more typical- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> looking computer microscopes that sold for $100 and more. So I just  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> never broke down and bought one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It's a conservative 35-x magnification, which is fine enough for the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> tools, printing, trying to discover one more tiny detail in an image,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and modeling uses I want to use it on. It's a tool that will be darned  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> handy for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I had one start-up problem, the size of the cd they include with the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> package. It's a mini-cd and as such is -DANGEROUS- to use with a slot- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> loading cd/dvd drive. The mini-cd's will fly loose in one of those  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> newer drives and jam in the mechanism. I've seen warnings about using  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the like in that kind of drive and a bunch of complaints over the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> years from people that learned they had to have their computer  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> serviced to get a mini-disk out of the slot-dives.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Wouldn't you know it, my last three computers only had that sort of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> slot-feed cd/dvd drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> So if your computer has a slot-load drive, don't risk putting one of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the smaller mini-cd's into it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I emailed the maker for a link to download the software and they  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> returned an email with the link to it, to me in only a few minutes.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> That is somewhat buried on their product page. But thankfully it's  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> there to get around the mini-disk they package.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The zOrb comes in three different colors. My hobby shop had an Orange  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> one. I think I actually bought it before they had the chance to put it  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> on their shelves. I probably would have chosen the same color if the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> store had more of them. I like having high-visibility tools that are  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> easier to find around the house and workshop.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The product link......
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.carsonoptical.com/Pocket_Microscopes/Pocket_Microscopes/MM-480O
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> And a short video of it in use.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Ij8URBdZA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10505
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: New Tool......... an USB mini-microscope!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    We have talked about how you and I seem to be in the same lists.......
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yup, it was Greenfield Hobby....... It was sitting on top of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
service desk and hadn't been put in the general store just yet. I  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
suspect it was the only one they had around. I didn't see one anywhere  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
else in the store.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     On May 9, 2009, at 12:32 AM, John Hagen wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> OK Bauers,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I've got the message 9 times and haven't finished going through my  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> emails yet!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The least you could have done is give the LHS name for us locals.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Did I see you there Thursday?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I'm on a good number of quite different lists, so this will be seen  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> a few of those.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I'm a bit of a tool buff and ................
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I just stumbled upon at my local hobby shop, and brought home, a $35
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> egg of a microscope that plugs into the USB port of both Windows and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Mac computers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I've long wanted a 'scope to check out if my tools were chipped, just
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> dull-edged, or even ground off-center. I have found more typical-
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> looking computer microscopes that sold for $100 and more. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10506
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: <Rhbale@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 10:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hello Plainsman...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It sounds strange to address you that way but I don't know your  name.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I was interested in your findings on the heritage of the Silver Streak
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Santa Fe reefer. Can you fill me in on Menzies, what kind of business it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and who was involved?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Also, do you know who the principals were of G&G Hobby Supply of  San
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dimas? Were they in anyway associated with G. F. Harbin Hobby 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Distributors from
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the same small (tiny) town? Harbin was owned by  August (Augie) Kniff who
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> also owned Tru Scale. He was closely associated with  Tom Ayres and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> purchased
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ayres Scale Models when Tom went full time into  advertising and promoting
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> various model railroad manufacturers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks in advance,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Carlsbad, CA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> easy
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> steps!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> =May5509AvgfooterNO115)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Then factor in that Silver Streak was marketed as part of Tru-Scale all 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
through the late fifties and early 60's,  The Tru-Scale and Ayers building 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
kits became part of Suydam, The Tru-Scale/Silverstreak crane became 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Train-Miniature (along with plastic versions of the Silver Streak wood "work 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
cars", I believe Harbin was also known as "overnight distributing"......
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Oh what a tangled web we weave.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10507
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about;  Jim/Jay/et.al.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis, W Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            I have 
to go back over information I have about Knapp and the Bowser (Bill 
Bowser/Redlands CA). This is being writen from memory and my collection and 
records not at hand. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          The Knapp ads 
all appeared before 1940. If I remember the Knapp drivers were hub 
insulated and there was a problem with the drivers and/or the valve gear 
shorting out. I "guess" it was the reason Knapp came and went in a short amount 
of time. They had big plans for HO.  They advertised that along with the 
4-8-2  they would have cast aluminum passenger cars (combine and coach). 
Only the coach has been seen. (anyone think they have or have seen a combine ?). 
They also advertised a line of freight cars and caboose. None have been seen 
that I know of. The reasoning behind this was they had the shorting problem 
with the Mountain and it put them out of the HO train 
business.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          As for the 6 volt 
motor. I have no pictures of it. Would have to take my Knapp engine apart to get 
one. Knapp advertised the powerful 6 volt motor that they developed. Knapp's main business was manufacturing electrical 
supplies. A lot of HO pre war were  6 volt motors. Varney ( V-1 ) and 
Mantua to name some.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          When Bill Bowser / 
Redlands CA got the "rights"  to sell his version of the 
Knapp cast brass Mountain he changed to a 12 volt motor. (Whose design 
I don't know)  He also changed the shorting brass spoke Knapp drivers to 
the cast box pok type with different valve gear. (Not all Knapp brass 
drivers shorted out but enough to cause a major problem).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          The design for 
the drive with  those supporting columns with the gear in between must have 
been originally Knapp. I have found nothing to say that design changed (or 
changes made) when the engine passed from Knapp to Bowser/Redlands CA . I 
have to check but didn't Bill Bowser use that same design in his other two 
engines, the 4-6-6-4 Challenger and the 4-6-2 Pacific ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          I will back 
check my facts that I am writing off the top of my head till I find the ads and 
articles I have. I will look closely at my Knapp and Bowser/Redlands CA 4-8-2 
Mountain engines. I am reluctant to take apart to view unless 
necessary.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Anyone with 
different facts please come forward but remember the Bowser engine being 
discussed is Bill Bowser / Redlands CA not later Lew English/Bowser in 
Pennsylvania.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 12:17 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New (old) 
  Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about; Jim/Jay/et.al.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks everyone.  More and more interesting all the 
  time.

                                                                                                                                                                                    First, this, "may," not be a separate cab.  I've been buried 
  in outside obligations almost all the time since this model showed up.  
  So I need to really look closer as soon as I can break loose.  If so, it 
  would fit your conclusion better.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, these are not box-pok, (?) 
  drivers.  These are nicely made spoked drivers, all flanged.  I am 
  going to risk guessing these are not brass drivers, which would remove this 
  model from the pre-war driver problem you mentioned.  BTW, what problem 
  did the brass drivers have?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Next, how does one tell if the motor is 6V 
  or 12V?  I had look quickly at the current Bowser website's 4-8-2 and, 
  while it looks very close, it doesn't seem quite the same, (difference in 
  minor details).

                                                                                                                                                                                    Now off to look at JW's link.  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis



                                                                                                                                                                                    At 02:58 PM 5/8/2009, you wrote:


                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dennis,  Lucky you! Try 
    this link, there is much more paperwork at HOseeker! You have found one of 
    the all time classic HO Steam Locomotives, and one with a interesting 
    history; good to hear you have the original brass tender too.  Instead 
    of telling more about it, I'll let you have the fun of discovery and after 
    looking over the information available there, then search out the name here 
    as well.  W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.hoseeker .org/assemblyexp losionBowser/ bowserbrass482mo untain.jpg 
    

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In 
    vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> 
    wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I picked up a locomotive that mystifies me, (which 
    doesn't take much 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > !). No i.d.; and sold as no i.d. I have not yet 
    dis-assembled 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > anything, so these are my first, external 
    observations: Cast Brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > boiler; I think the cab is separate, and 
    also cast. She is a 4-8-2; 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > alligator crossheads. Cast, separate 
    smokebox cover with center 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > headlight, bell mounted on front of 
    smokebox cover, but up top. Long 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > overhang from back of rear driver 
    to end of locomotive, which results 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > in a long, somewhat slender 
    trailing truck frame. One piece cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > brass tender which includes 
    air brake cylinder and, of all things, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > what appears to be a water 
    scoop. (I haven't seen those replicated very often)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > In 
    viewing the engine broadside, the worm gear sits horizontal over 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    second driver, with cast, (zamac?) bearing on each end. (So 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    apparently a dedicated worm gear housing) Bearings look odd, almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    like the old, round, "split-shot," fishing weights used to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > look. 
    Behind the rearmost bearing the motor drive shaft can be seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    continuing, horizontal, rearward into the firebox area.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    Locomotive handrails present in the usual places, but a second, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    four-stanchion- each-side set of handrails exist near the top of the 
    boiler
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Boiler contains a metal weight, (which is loose). 
    All boiler details 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > are cast-on. I see NO identifying marks on this 
    locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Without a photo, this is not much for you all 
    to go on. This one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > seems well built, and old. I will ask if anyone 
    has any tips as to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > where manufacturer' s i.d. might be 
    hidden.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dennis, the newly 
  afflicted... .........
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10508
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Richard B.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry about the name omission, I try to include my W Jay W. at the end of almost all messages I post but unfortunately missed this one; when I reply from my own Yahoo page instead of our Vintage HO Group page, my name automatically appears. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    We probably need to see a flowchart to be able to understand the lineage of these sometimes connected California firms! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'll repeat that paragraph information from my previous post, but with full names this time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    According to the Athearn Guide, page 37., G&G Hobby Suppy in San Dimas was owned by George Menzies.  Athearn sold him the Silver Streak line in late 1959 or early 1960. In 1962 he apparantly changed the name of his company to Pacific HO.  (He later sold Silver Streak to Walthers in 1970. However, on pages 44 and 63 of the same Athearn Guide, it says Menzies sold his Pacific HO line to Walthers in 1972:  that date needs to be ironed out.)  George Menzies retained the metal Athearn kit line and change the name of his remaining operation to "Menzies" short for G.F. Menzies Co.  (The metal Athearn HO line went to D.J. Baker Co. after Menzies death, eventually to Bowser.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Athearn's relationship to True Scale may have begun early: The Athearn guide, page 28 says: "He (Athearn) never did produce his own wooden pieces (used in his metal boxcar line), though because Tru-Scale, a San Dimas, California firm could do so at lower cost." 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Earlier this morning, in post # 10506, Don D. spelled out much more information on True Scale.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I  learned, also from the Athearn guide (pub. by Greenburg) , That Overnight Distributing Service was only begun as an advertising ruse to buy time for Athearn as his new HO line experienced  production delays.  Overnight, at first, "existing only as the company's billing address." P 24. and was used as an advertising tool to retain good will!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hopefully others, like Don D., can fill in the blanks for us and I will watch for other bits of information in the old magazines, too. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rhbale@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hello Plainsman...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > It sounds strange to address you that way but I don't know your name.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I was interested in your findings on the heritage of the Silver Streak 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Santa Fe reefer. Can you fill me in on Menzies, what kind of business it was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > and who was involved?
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Also, do you know who the principals were of G&G Hobby Supply of San 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dimas? Were they in anyway associated with G. F. Harbin Hobby Distributors from 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > the same small (tiny) town? Harbin was owned by August (Augie) Kniff who 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > also owned Tru Scale. He was closely associated with Tom Ayres and purchased 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Ayres Scale Models when Tom went full time into advertising and promoting 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > various model railroad manufacturers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Thanks in advance,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Carlsbad, CA
                                                                                                                                                                                    > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > steps! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd
                                                                                                                                                                                    > =May5509AvgfooterNO115)
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10509
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: <Rhbale@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Also, do you know who the principals were of G&G Hobby Supply of  San
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Dimas? Were they in anyway associated with G. F. Harbin Hobby 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Distributors from
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the same small (tiny) town? Harbin was owned by  August (Augie) Kniff who
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> also owned Tru Scale. He was closely associated with  Tom Ayres and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> purchased
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Ayres Scale Models when Tom went full time into  advertising and promoting
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> various model railroad manufacturers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Then factor in that Silver Streak was marketed as part of Tru-Scale all 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> through the late fifties and early 60's,  The Tru-Scale and Ayers building 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> kits became part of Suydam, The Tru-Scale/Silverstreak crane became 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Train-Miniature (along with plastic versions of the Silver Streak wood "work 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> cars", I believe Harbin was also known as "overnight distributing"......
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                        And further, I was a member of the West Covina Brotherhood of Model 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Railroaders which had its layout located on the second floor of an old 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
building in downtown San Dimas. We were just a 1/2 block away from The 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Train Shop in San Dimas (which is still in business according to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
dealer ads in MR) which was next door to the distributor. I think one, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
or perhaps a few, of our members worked for the distributor.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    I don't recall exactly what year I joined the club, but I believe I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
was still in high school around '68-'70. I had somehow become acquainted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with members Dewitt and Annalee Knoth who were kind enough to give me 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
rides to the club from my home in Anaheim.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    The memory is really fuzzy by this point, but I believe I originally 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
thought The Train Shop and the distributor were both hobby shops, next 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
door to each other in storefronts. I thought it was strange to have 2 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
competing hobby shops next door to each other like that in a small town 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
like San Dimas, not realizing one was not really a hobby shop until one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
time I went in the distributor and wanted to buy something. Being in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
storefronts next door like that it seems there must have been some 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
relation between the two. I never learned any details of the operation.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Nature makes boys and girls lovely to look upon so they can be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
tolerated until they acquire some sense."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    - William Phelps
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10510
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                           Dennis, W Jay 
W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm sending 
some pictures to try to answer some questions posed about the differences 
between the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the later version put out by Bill 
Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to remember that when one company buys out 
anothers products there can be a "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if 
this is the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I write is fact or 
possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant into 
HO and they didn't last long. There have been no plans or assembly sheets that 
have come forward. Most of my information has been exchanged with members from 
other groups and close train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only 
printed word I can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model Supplies), 
MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with their "producers of miniature motors since 
1890'"motto), MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 1939 
(which seems to be a final ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but will 
draw parts of it as it pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain 
questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Knapp Electric, Inc. of  
739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana  was mainly a producer of electrical 
parts. They didn't last long in HO as I pointed out in a previous post.  
Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " The engine superstructure is 
cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always called it brass). This statement 
has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy sheet BRASS. (All tenders I know of 
are cast brass)  Statement "  The drivers and tender truck wheels (hub 
mounted) are made of BRASS.  Linen laminated Celeron is used for 
insulation".  Statement " The Knapp motor uses Alnico permanent magnet 
field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         MR Oct 1938 statement " 
Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor 
operates from transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone 
holding the armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        MR Jan 1939  from Knapp "A 
Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all new 
items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries of 
their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting problem). 
Later it claims all the problems were corrected which in reality seems not to be 
true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph about their 6 volt 
motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       The last ad comes one month later, MR 
Feb 1939 from Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp 
engine and a guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it 
return it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the Bowser 
Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously 
noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Hope this answers some of the 
questions. Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The 
drivers were solid brass and insulated at the hub which caused shorts through 
the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see both types on the last picture. 
Knapp on top , Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I will relate here how 
different people have different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had 
Knapp cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal had 
a reddish tinge  and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges 
(Everything I know said all drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his 
information came from. He said he would share after the sale. the only thing he 
did mention was the previous owner told him (and gave his name). He never 
followed up with more plus pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        To W Ray W. Check out the 
pictures as I see no difference in the design of the drive train from Knapp to 
Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       Any discussion on different opinions 
welcome. Again the small  amount of paper work and the engines limits 
being 100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous sources and collectors 
who I will believe till further proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                             Hope 
no 
mistakes.                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                  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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10511
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain Addition
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                              Two quick things. 
I don't think the parts sheet shown on HOseeker Bowser Mountain page one is the 
right sheet. It mentions a 4 WHEEL TRAILING TRUCK among other things. Can't 
be for a 4-8-2 Mountain.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Second point to W 
Jay W.        Upon closer look of my Knapp 
and Bowser Mountains the supports for the motor drive, although the same in 
both, are different from the picture shown in HO seeker. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        My engines DON"T have that Split 
Shot like bearing in the supports for the gear which is shown in the "Original" 
HOseeker drawing. My Redlands CA Challenger and Pacific clearly have them 
too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       My Knapp and Bowser Mountain have 
supports for the gear but not the same. This could have been a carry over, at 
first, from the Knapp to Bowser engine and was later changed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       Based on this the SPLIT SHOT looking 
design must have been Bill Bowsers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 10:42 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Dennis, W 
  Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm sending 
  some pictures to try to answer some questions posed about the differences 
  between the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the later version put out by Bill 
  Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to remember that when one company buys out 
  anothers products there can be a "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if 
  this is the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I write is fact or 
  possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant 
  into HO and they didn't last long. There have been no plans or assembly sheets 
  that have come forward. Most of my information has been exchanged with members 
  from other groups and close train collector friends. Four advertisements are 
  the only printed word I can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model 
  Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with their "producers of miniature motors 
  since 1890'"motto), MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 
  1939 (which seems to be a final ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but 
  will draw parts of it as it pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain 
  questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        Knapp Electric, Inc. of  
  739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana  was mainly a producer of 
  electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I pointed out in a previous 
  post.  Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " The engine 
  superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always called it 
  brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy sheet 
  BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass)  Statement "  The 
  drivers and tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of BRASS.  Linen 
  laminated Celeron is used for insulation".  Statement " The Knapp motor 
  uses Alnico permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         MR Oct 1938 statement " 
  Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor 
  operates from transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone 
  holding the armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        MR Jan 1939  from Knapp 
  "A Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all 
  new items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries 
  of their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting 
  problem). Later it claims all the problems were corrected which in reality 
  seems not to be true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph 
  about their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and 
  read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       The last ad comes one month later, 
  MR Feb 1939 from Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the 
  Knapp engine and a guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't 
  like it return it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the 
  Bowser Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously 
  noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        Hope this answers some of the 
  questions. Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The 
  drivers were solid brass and insulated at the hub which caused shorts through 
  the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see both types on the last picture. 
  Knapp on top , Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         I will relate here how 
  different people have different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had 
  Knapp cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal 
  had a reddish tinge  and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges 
  (Everything I know said all drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his 
  information came from. He said he would share after the sale. the only thing 
  he did mention was the previous owner told him (and gave his name). He never 
  followed up with more plus pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        To W Ray W. Check out the 
  pictures as I see no difference in the design of the drive train from Knapp to 
  Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       Any discussion on different opinions 
  welcome. Again the small  amount of paper work and the engines 
  limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous sources and collectors 
  who I will believe till further proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                             Hope 
  no 
  mistakes.                             
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10512
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about; Jim/Jay/et.al.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
Black spoked drivers with silver rims were available at some time
for these locos.  I have them on mine.  It had Box-Pox when I bought
it.  The spoked drivers appear to be like the ones used on the NYC
Pacific loco.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Clean and lube the motor.  Try the motor up to 6 volts to see how it
runs.  Use a volt meter to keep a check on the progress.  Use an
ammeter to check current draw.  If it runs slow and sluggish and the
amps are low, try slow increases in voltage and feel the motor with
your fingers.  If it is 12 volt it will never get to hot to hold even
at 12 volts if it is in good condition, amps should be under 1 amp.  A
6 volt motor would be running fast at 6 volts.  If running slow and
hot, it could also be a bad magnet.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
==========================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis Thompson wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks everyone.  More and more interesting all the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
First, this, "may," not be a separate cab.  I've been
buried in outside obligations almost all the time since this model
showed
up.  So I need to really look closer as soon as I can break
loose.  If so, it would fit your conclusion better.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim, these are not box-pok, (?) drivers.  These are nicely made
spoked drivers, all flanged.  I am going to risk guessing these are
not brass drivers, which would remove this model from the pre-war
driver
problem you mentioned.  BTW, what problem did the brass drivers
have?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Next, how does one tell if the motor is 6V or 12V?  I had look
quickly at the current Bowser website's 4-8-2 and, while it looks very
close, it doesn't seem quite the same, (difference in minor
details).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Now off to look at JW's link.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 02:58 PM 5/8/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dennis,  Lucky you!
Try
this link, there is much more paperwork at HOseeker! You have found one
of the all time classic HO Steam Locomotives, and one with a
interesting
history; good to hear you have the original brass tender too. 
Instead of telling more about it, I'll let you have the fun of
discovery
and after looking over the information available there, then search out
the name here as well.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
http://www.hoseeker .org/assemblyexp losionBowser/ bowserbrass482mo untain.jpg
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...>
wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I picked up a locomotive that mystifies me, (which doesn't take
much
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> !). No i.d.; and sold as no i.d. I have not yet dis-assembled 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> anything, so these are my first, external observations: Cast Brass
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> boiler; I think the cab is separate, and also cast. She is a
4-8-2;
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> alligator crossheads. Cast, separate smokebox cover with center
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> headlight, bell mounted on front of smokebox cover, but up top.
Long
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> overhang from back of rear driver to end of locomotive, which
results 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in a long, somewhat slender trailing truck frame. One piece cast
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> brass tender which includes air brake cylinder and, of all things,
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> what appears to be a water scoop. (I haven't seen those replicated
very often)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In viewing the engine broadside, the worm gear sits horizontal
over
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> second driver, with cast, (zamac?) bearing on each end. (So 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> apparently a dedicated worm gear housing) Bearings look odd,
almost
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> like the old, round, "split-shot," fishing weights used to
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> look. Behind the rearmost bearing the motor drive shaft can be
seen
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> continuing, horizontal, rearward into the firebox area.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Locomotive handrails present in the usual places, but a second,
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> four-stanchion- each-side set of handrails exist near the top
of the
boiler
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Boiler contains a metal weight, (which is loose). All boiler
details
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> are cast-on. I see NO identifying marks on this locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Without a photo, this is not much for you all to go on. This one
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> seems well built, and old. I will ask if anyone has any tips as to
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> where manufacturer' s i.d. might be hidden.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis, the newly afflicted... .........
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10513
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello W Jay W., George Menzies did not start selling the Silver Streak line as "Pacific H0/Silver Streak" until 1961; before this time, as far as I find in sources other than magazine ads (which may tell more - I haven't checked them yet), the line was still being marketed only as "Silver Streak."  Unless ads show otherwise, it appears as though Menzies created the "Pacific H0" name in 1962; the Silver Streak line did have the Pacific H0 name associated with it in that year.  Ray F W.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Rick, J.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hal Prendergast, owner of Silver Streak had financial problems right in the middle of creating injection molded F7 A&B units and his business asssets were sold at liquidation aution in mid-1953 (Athearn Guide, P32.) The buyer was Irv Athearn, who had the work completed on the F-7's and they became the famous Globe units, later Athearn. My understanding is that is when all of Silver Streak became an Athearn property, but it was held and operated as a seperate unit.  But I'm not sure.  Is that when the Pacific HO name was coined?  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The Athearn Guide is clear that either in late 1959 or early 1960, Athearn sold Silver Streak craft kit line as well as the Athearn metal kit lines to G&G Hobby Supply in San Dimas, CA. Owned by Menzies, the firm changed its name to Pacific HO in 1962, but later changed again to Menzies. (Athearn guide p 37.) I'm not sure if they took on the existing Pacific HO name at that time, or created it themselves. Menzies sold Silver Streak/Pacific HO to Walthers in 1970, and Walthers later sold Silver Streak to Ye Olde Huff n' Puff.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'll keep an eye out for information when I go though my magazines, but I'm sure someone here will be able confirm or correct my statements and will be able to tell us exactly how True Scale, which also went though several owners, figures in. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > If anyone is interested, I can begin to keep and post a list of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > models by manufacturing era: A) Silver Streak original, B) Walthers and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > C) Huff Puff, by manufacturer's catalog numbers and road numbers.  Just 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > let me know what you have when you think of it or find them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     Where do Pacific HO and Tru-Scale fall in that mix? I have some kits 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > with those manufacturers on the box. The boxes are identical other than 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the name change, and both manufacturers were in San Dimas, CA.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > If flying is so safe then why do they call the airport the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > terminal?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10514
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ray F. W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thank You, Ray. I had thought that might have been the case, but did not yet want to assume or conclude it.  I also have to go though the magazine ads and those sometimes helpful "Bull Session" and Dispatcher's Report's" columns as well.  When I began reading the magazines in the town library around 1962-1963, Pacific HO and Silver Streak were synonymous and I had no knowledge of all the complex past history!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Around the time I began seriously in HO, 1963-1964 the big modeling news was that new Pacific HO "Golden Spike Series" craftsman type, plastic kit for those modern 50' mechanical reefers, also later offered by Walthers (even in EL and PC versions)! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hello W Jay W., George Menzies did not start selling the Silver Streak line as "Pacific H0/Silver Streak" until 1961; before this time, as far as I find in sources other than magazine ads (which may tell more - I haven't checked them yet), the line was still being marketed only as "Silver Streak."  Unless ads show otherwise, it appears as though Menzies created the "Pacific H0" name in 1962; the Silver Streak line did have the Pacific H0 name associated with it in that year.  Ray F W.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Rick, J.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hal Prendergast, owner of Silver Streak had financial problems right in the middle of creating injection molded F7 A&B units and his business asssets were sold at liquidation aution in mid-1953 (Athearn Guide, P32.) The buyer was Irv Athearn, who had the work completed on the F-7's and they became the famous Globe units, later Athearn. My understanding is that is when all of Silver Streak became an Athearn property, but it was held and operated as a seperate unit.  But I'm not sure.  Is that when the Pacific HO name was coined?  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The Athearn Guide is clear that either in late 1959 or early 1960, Athearn sold Silver Streak craft kit line as well as the Athearn metal kit lines to G&G Hobby Supply in San Dimas, CA. Owned by Menzies, the firm changed its name to Pacific HO in 1962, but later changed again to Menzies. (Athearn guide p 37.) I'm not sure if they took on the existing Pacific HO name at that time, or created it themselves. Menzies sold Silver Streak/Pacific HO to Walthers in 1970, and Walthers later sold Silver Streak to Ye Olde Huff n' Puff.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I'll keep an eye out for information when I go though my magazines, but I'm sure someone here will be able confirm or correct my statements and will be able to tell us exactly how True Scale, which also went though several owners, figures in. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > If anyone is interested, I can begin to keep and post a list of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > models by manufacturing era: A) Silver Streak original, B) Walthers and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > C) Huff Puff, by manufacturer's catalog numbers and road numbers.  Just 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > let me know what you have when you think of it or find them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >     Where do Pacific HO and Tru-Scale fall in that mix? I have some kits 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > with those manufacturers on the box. The boxes are identical other than 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > the name change, and both manufacturers were in San Dimas, CA.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > If flying is so safe then why do they call the airport the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > terminal?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10515
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Strange. The spoked drivers shown in the photos look to be rim insulated, not hub insulated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
A good reference for driver types is here:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.pacificlocomotive.com/catalog.php
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I always liked Baldwin Disc drivers for detail.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I also notice a difference in valve gear hangers on the two, or is that just customer modification?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >        Dennis, W Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       I'm sending some pictures to try to answer some questions posed about the differences between the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the later version put out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to remember that when one company buys out anothers products there can be a "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if this is the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I write is fact or possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they didn't last long. There have been no plans or assembly sheets that have come forward. Most of my information has been exchanged with members from other groups and close train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only printed word I can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with their "producers of miniature motors since 1890'"motto), MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 1939 (which seems to be a final ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but will draw parts of it as it pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Knapp Electric, Inc. of  739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana  was mainly a producer of electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I pointed out in a previous post.  Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " The engine superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always called it brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy sheet BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass)  Statement "  The drivers and tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of BRASS.  Linen laminated Celeron is used for insulation".  Statement " The Knapp motor uses Alnico permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      MR Oct 1938 statement " Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor operates from transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone holding the armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     MR Jan 1939  from Knapp "A Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all new items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries of their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting problem). Later it claims all the problems were corrected which in reality seems not to be true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph about their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939 from Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp engine and a guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it return it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the Bowser Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Hope this answers some of the questions. Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The drivers were solid brass and insulated at the hub which caused shorts through the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see both types on the last picture. Knapp on top , Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      I will relate here how different people have different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had Knapp cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal had a reddish tinge  and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges (Everything I know said all drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his information came from. He said he would share after the sale. the only thing he did mention was the previous owner told him (and gave his name). He never followed up with more plus pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     To W Ray W. Check out the pictures as I see no difference in the design of the drive train from Knapp to Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    Any discussion on different opinions welcome. Again the small  amount of paper work and the engines limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous sources and collectors who I will believe till further proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                          Hope no mistakes.                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10516
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi W Jay W., Looks like I didn't proof-read that part of the Greenberg/Athearn Guide well enough to let that confliction of dates slip by, but then, I wasn't the only one who looked the book over (LOL).  George Menzies didn't sell the Pacific H0/Silver Streak line to William K Walthers until 1972, as is stated on pages 44 and 63; the statement on page 37 saying that he sold Silver Streak to Walthers in 1970 is erroneous and probably a result of a typo error.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Walthers' catalogs carrying Menzies' line of Silver Streak list this line as "Pacific H0 - Silver Streak" from when Walthers first started carrying Menzies' Pacific H0 - Silver Streak line right up to and through 1971.  After that time, Walthers changed it to "Silver Streak - Division of Wm K Walthers Inc", later changing it to "Silver Streak - Manufactured by Wm K Walthers Inc"  before selling it to Richard & Shirley Koontz (Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff R.R.).  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Richard B.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sorry about the name omission, I try to include my W Jay W. at the end
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of almost all messages I post but unfortunately missed this one; when I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> reply from my own Yahoo page instead of our Vintage HO Group page, my
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> name automatically appears.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> We probably need to see a flowchart to be able to understand the lineage
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of these sometimes connected California firms!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'll repeat that paragraph information from my previous post, but with
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> full names this time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> According to the Athearn Guide, page 37., G&G Hobby Suppy in San Dimas
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> was owned by George Menzies.  Athearn sold him the Silver Streak line in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> late 1959 or early 1960. In 1962 he apparantly changed the name of his
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> company to Pacific HO.  (He later sold Silver Streak to Walthers in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1970. However, on pages 44 and 63 of the same Athearn Guide, it says
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Menzies sold his Pacific HO line to Walthers in 1972:  that date needs
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to be ironed out.)  George Menzies retained the metal Athearn kit line
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and change the name of his remaining operation to "Menzies" short for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> G.F. Menzies Co.  (The metal Athearn HO line went to D.J. Baker Co.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> after Menzies death, eventually to Bowser.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Athearn's relationship to True Scale may have begun early: The Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> guide, page 28 says: "He (Athearn) never did produce his own wooden
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> pieces (used in his metal boxcar line), though because Tru-Scale, a San
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dimas, California firm could do so at lower cost."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Earlier this morning, in post # 10506, Don D. spelled out much more
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> information on True Scale.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I  learned, also from the Athearn guide (pub. by Greenburg) , That
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Overnight Distributing Service was only begun as an advertising ruse to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> buy time for Athearn as his new HO line experienced  production delays. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Overnight, at first, "existing only as the company's billing address." P
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 24. and was used as an advertising tool to retain good will!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hopefully others, like Don D., can fill in the blanks for us and I will
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> watch for other bits of information in the old magazines, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rhbale@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hello Plainsman...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > It sounds strange to address you that way but I don't know your name.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I was interested in your findings on the heritage of the Silver Streak
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Santa Fe reefer. Can you fill me in on Menzies, what kind of business
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> it was
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > and who was involved?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Also, do you know who the principals were of G&G Hobby Supply of San
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dimas? Were they in anyway associated with G. F. Harbin Hobby
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Distributors from
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the same small (tiny) town? Harbin was owned by August (Augie) Kniff
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> who
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > also owned Tru Scale. He was closely associated with Tom Ayres and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> purchased
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Ayres Scale Models when Tom went full time into advertising and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> promoting
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > various model railroad manufacturers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Thanks in advance,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Carlsbad, CA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> easy
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > steps!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir\
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> =http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bc\
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> d
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > =May5509AvgfooterNO115)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10517
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, You are probably trying to think of "Scullen-Disk" drivers, on the Bowser version, but I too don't understand the separate cab even though everything else seems to match.  Also sounds like a Varney weight was installed for more traction power -- at the risk of burning out the motor.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     From what you describe and what W Jay W suspects I will agree that it is most likely the Bowser ( Bill Bowser / Redlands Calif. ) 4-8-2 Mountain.  The description of what would be the original brass tender (with the cast water scoop and air brake cylinder) fits.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         There are two things that don't. One is the original bodies had the cab as part of the boiler casting, one piece. This could be separate from somebody working on it. The other is what you describe as a metal weight in the boiler that is loose. The original cast brass boiler was very heavy and didn't need a weight. Again someone could have modified it somewhat. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        Everything else matches but there is one thing you didn't mention and that is the type of drivers. Are they cast with the little round holes (forget the name Bo-Pox ?) or are they brass with spokes. The reason I say this was the original cast brass Mountain was made pre war by Knapp (same engine boiler, same tender) however the Knapp engine had a 6 volt motor (so be careful) and had spoked  brass drivers that had a major problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     That is why Bill Bowser / Redlands CA bought the Knapp Mountain out. He changed the motor to 12 volt (drive still looked the same) but he changed to the cast drivers to correct a shorting problem and changed the valve gear. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: Dennis Thompson 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 5:26 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   I picked up a locomotive that mystifies me, (which doesn't take much 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   !). No i.d.; and sold as no i.d. I have not yet dis-assembled 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   anything, so these are my first, external observations: Cast Brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   boiler; I think the cab is separate, and also cast. She is a 4-8-2; 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   alligator crossheads. Cast, separate smokebox cover with center 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   headlight, bell mounted on front of smokebox cover, but up top. Long 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   overhang from back of rear driver to end of locomotive, which results 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   in a long, somewhat slender trailing truck frame. One piece cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   brass tender which includes air brake cylinder and, of all things, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   what appears to be a water scoop. (I haven't seen those replicated very often)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   In viewing the engine broadside, the worm gear sits horizontal over 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   second driver, with cast, (zamac?) bearing on each end. (So 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   apparently a dedicated worm gear housing) Bearings look odd, almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   like the old, round, "split-shot," fishing weights used to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   look. Behind the rearmost bearing the motor drive shaft can be seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   continuing, horizontal, rearward into the firebox area.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Locomotive handrails present in the usual places, but a second, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   four-stanchion-each-side set of handrails exist near the top of the boiler
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Boiler contains a metal weight, (which is loose). All boiler details 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   are cast-on. I see NO identifying marks on this locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Without a photo, this is not much for you all to go on. This one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   seems well built, and old. I will ask if anyone has any tips as to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   where manufacturer's i.d. might be hidden.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Dennis, the newly afflicted............
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10518
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim,  Okay, I'd be glad to check out pics you posted -- if you're referring to me (Ray F W) ???  Looks like you may be mixing us (W Jay W. and R F W.) up again though despite our efforts to identify ourselves better as, while you're referring to Dennis, W Jay W and all, you asking for W Ray W (a combination of I.D.'s) to check out the pics.  Just wanted to bring this to your attention.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best, Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        Dennis, W Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       I'm sending some pictures to try to answer some questions posed about the differences between the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the later version put out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to remember that when one company buys out anothers products there can be a "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if this is the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I write is fact or possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they didn't last long. There have been no plans or assembly sheets that have come forward. Most of my information has been exchanged with members from other groups and close train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only printed word I can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with their "producers of miniature motors since 1890'"motto), MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 1939 (which seems to be a final ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but will draw parts of it as it pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Knapp Electric, Inc. of  739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana  was mainly a producer of electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I pointed out in a previous post.  Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " The engine superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always called it brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy sheet BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass)  Statement "  The drivers and tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of BRASS.  Linen laminated Celeron is used for insulation".  Statement " The Knapp motor uses Alnico permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      MR Oct 1938 statement " Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor operates from transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone holding the armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     MR Jan 1939  from Knapp "A Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all new items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries of their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting problem). Later it claims all the problems were corrected which in reality seems not to be true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph about their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939 from Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp engine and a guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it return it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the Bowser Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Hope this answers some of the questions. Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The drivers were solid brass and insulated at the hub which caused shorts through the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see both types on the last picture. Knapp on top , Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      I will relate here how different people have different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had Knapp cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal had a reddish tinge  and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges (Everything I know said all drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his information came from. He said he would share after the sale. the only thing he did mention was the previous owner told him (and gave his name). He never followed up with more plus pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     To W Ray W. Check out the pictures as I see no difference in the design of the drive train from Knapp to Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    Any discussion on different opinions welcome. Again the small  amount of paper work and the engines limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous sources and collectors who I will believe till further proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                          Hope no mistakes.                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10519
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               There is a 
difference in the valve gear hangers. A change made ( I assume ) when 
Bowser changed to his drivers/valve gear. No modification I know. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          As for the rim 
insulated drivers you see . The solid brass drivers I was talking about were the 
pick up side. No added rims . The other side is hub insulated and as you 
noticed, and I didn't, rim too. I can't fully explain this. The original Knapp 
drivers had a pin that you peened over to attach the main rods. The pins on some 
of my drivers were "modified" with screws in holes to attach the main rod since 
the pins for peening missing .The most I know is the shorting occurred as the 
drivers rotated and allowed the valve gear to actually do the shorting. 
Something to that affect. While I don't completely understand what happened (and 
not sure anyone does) and have never seen any explanation in print. There was a 
major short that Knapp tried to rectify. Perhaps these insulated drivers (rim 
insulation added) were the changes Knapp tried to make (and didn't work either) 
after the problems with the first hundred had problems as stated in the ad. 
Maybe this is why my engine runs with out shorting
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I said I didn't have 
all the answers and was looking myself.     Thanks for 
taking notice.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 12:49 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser 
  Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Strange. The spoked drivers shown in the photos look to be rim insulated, 
  not hub insulated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    A good reference for driver types is here:
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.pacificl ocomotive. com/catalog. php

                                                                                                                                                                                    I 
  always liked Baldwin Disc drivers for detail.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I also notice a 
  difference in valve gear hangers on the two, or is that just customer 
  modification?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dennis, W Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  I'm sending some pictures to try to answer some questions posed about the 
  differences between the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the later version put 
  out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to remember that when one company 
  buys out anothers products there can be a "switch over" using up parts. I 
  don't know if this is the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I 
  write is fact or possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early 
  (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they didn't last long. There have been no 
  plans or assembly sheets that have come forward. Most of my information has 
  been exchanged with members from other groups and close train collector 
  friends. Four advertisements are the only printed word I can draw from. They 
  include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with 
  their "producers of miniature motors since 1890'"motto) , MR Jan 1939 
  Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 1939 (which seems to be a final 
  ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but will draw parts of it as it 
  pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Knapp Electric, Inc. of 739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana was mainly a 
  producer of electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I pointed out in 
  a previous post. Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " The engine 
  superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always called it 
  brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy sheet 
  BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass) Statement " The drivers and 
  tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of BRASS. Linen laminated Celeron 
  is used for insulation". Statement " The Knapp motor uses Alnico permanent 
  magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > MR Oct 1938 statement " Wheels are solid 
  BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor operates from 
  transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone holding the 
  armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > MR Jan 1939 from Knapp "A Frank 
  Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all new 
  items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries of 
  their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting 
  problem). Later it claims all the problems were corrected which in reality 
  seems not to be true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph 
  about their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and 
  read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939 from 
  Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp engine and a 
  guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it return it. 
  Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the Bowser Redlands CA 
  name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hope this answers some of the questions. Knapp was originally a 6 
  volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The drivers were solid brass and insulated 
  at the hub which caused shorts through the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You 
  can see both types on the last picture. Knapp on top , Bowser on 
  bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I will relate here how different people have 
  different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had Knapp cast brass 
  Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal had a reddish tinge 
  and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges (Everything I know said all 
  drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his information came from. He said 
  he would share after the sale. the only thing he did mention was the previous 
  owner told him (and gave his name). He never followed up with more plus 
  pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To W Ray W. Check out the pictures as I 
  see no difference in the design of the drive train from Knapp to Bowser. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Any discussion on different opinions welcome. Again the 
  small amount of paper work and the engines limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" 
  come from numerous sources and collectors who I will believe till further 
  proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hope no mistakes. Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10520
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about; Jim/Jay/et.al.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     Thanks for the explanation on how to check a 
6 volt vs. a 12 volt motor. I didn't know how. I do know Knapp said you 
could run their 6 volt motors  up to 10 volts with out harm (stated in an 
ad).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 11:38 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New (old) 
  Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about; Jim/Jay/et.al.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Black spoked drivers with silver rims were available at some time for 
  these locos.  I have them on mine.  It had Box-Pox when I bought 
  it.  The spoked drivers appear to be like the ones used on the NYC 
  Pacific loco.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Clean and lube the motor.  Try the motor up to 6 
  volts to see how it runs.  Use a volt meter to keep a check on the 
  progress.  Use an ammeter to check current draw.  If it runs slow 
  and sluggish and the amps are low, try slow increases in voltage and feel the 
  motor with your fingers.  If it is 12 volt it will never get to hot to 
  hold even at 12 volts if it is in good condition, amps should be under 1 
  amp.  A 6 volt motor would be running fast at 6 volts.  If running 
  slow and hot, it could also be a bad magnet.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don in 
  VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    ============ ========= ========= ========= ===

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis 
  Thompson wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks everyone.  More and more interesting all the 
    time.

                                                                                                                                                                                    First, this, "may," not be a separate cab.  I've been 
    buried in outside obligations almost all the time since this model showed 
    up.  So I need to really look closer as soon as I can break 
    loose.  If so, it would fit your conclusion better.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, these 
    are not box-pok, (?) drivers.  These are nicely made spoked drivers, 
    all flanged.  I am going to risk guessing these are not brass drivers, 
    which would remove this model from the pre-war driver problem you 
    mentioned.  BTW, what problem did the brass drivers have?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Next, 
    how does one tell if the motor is 6V or 12V?  I had look quickly at the 
    current Bowser website's 4-8-2 and, while it looks very close, it doesn't 
    seem quite the same, (difference in minor details).

                                                                                                                                                                                    Now off to look 
    at JW's link.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis



                                                                                                                                                                                    At 02:58 PM 5/8/2009, you 
    wrote:


                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dennis,  Lucky you! Try 
      this link, there is much more paperwork at HOseeker! You have found one of 
      the all time classic HO Steam Locomotives, and one with a interesting 
      history; good to hear you have the original brass tender too.  
      Instead of telling more about it, I'll let you have the fun of discovery 
      and after looking over the information available there, then search out 
      the name here as well.  W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.hoseeker .org/assemblyexp losionBowser/ bowserbrass482mo untain.jpg 
      

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In 
      vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> 
      wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I picked up a locomotive that mystifies me, (which 
      doesn't take much 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > !). No i.d.; and sold as no i.d. I have not yet 
      dis-assembled 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > anything, so these are my first, external 
      observations: Cast Brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > boiler; I think the cab is separate, and 
      also cast. She is a 4-8-2; 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > alligator crossheads. Cast, separate 
      smokebox cover with center 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > headlight, bell mounted on front of 
      smokebox cover, but up top. Long 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > overhang from back of rear 
      driver to end of locomotive, which results 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > in a long, somewhat 
      slender trailing truck frame. One piece cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > brass tender which 
      includes air brake cylinder and, of all things, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > what appears to 
      be a water scoop. (I haven't seen those replicated very often)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    > In viewing the engine broadside, the worm gear sits horizontal 
      over 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > second driver, with cast, (zamac?) bearing on each end. (So 
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    > apparently a dedicated worm gear housing) Bearings look odd, 
      almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > like the old, round, "split-shot, " fishing weights 
      used to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > look. Behind the rearmost bearing the motor drive shaft 
      can be seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > continuing, horizontal, rearward into the firebox 
      area.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Locomotive handrails present in the usual places, 
      but a second, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > four-stanchion- each-side set of handrails 
      exist near the top of the boiler
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Boiler contains a metal 
      weight, (which is loose). All boiler details 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > are cast-on. I see 
      NO identifying marks on this locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Without a photo, 
      this is not much for you all to go on. This one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > seems well built, 
      and old. I will ask if anyone has any tips as to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > where 
      manufacturer' s i.d. might be hidden.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dennis, the 
      newly afflicted... .........
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10521
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 




 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Dunno if this will help or not. From
August 1948.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10522
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
I'm sorry if I did it again. It should have said W Jay W check out the pictures. 
But please check them out as I value your opinion. I know how I will get away 
from the problem. Anytime I send an Email or response to one I will just say 
All. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:25 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser 
  Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim, Okay, I'd be glad to check out pics you posted -- if you're 
  referring to me (Ray F W) ??? Looks like you may be mixing us (W Jay W. and R 
  F W.) up again though despite our efforts to identify ourselves better as, 
  while you're referring to Dennis, W Jay W and all, you asking for W Ray W (a 
  combination of I.D.'s) to check out the pics. Just wanted to bring this to 
  your attention. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Best, Ray F W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dennis, W Jay W, 
  All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'm sending some pictures to try to answer some 
  questions posed about the differences between the cast brass Knapp Mountain 
  and the later version put out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to 
  remember that when one company buys out anothers products there can be a 
  "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if this is the case but have to 
  mention it. You decide if what I write is fact or possibly fiction. Also 
  remember that Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they didn't 
  last long. There have been no plans or assembly sheets that have come forward. 
  Most of my information has been exchanged with members from other groups and 
  close train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only printed word I 
  can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model Supplies), MR Oct 1938 
  ( Knapp ad with their "producers of miniature motors since 1890'"motto) , 
  MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 1939 (which seems to 
  be a final ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but will draw parts of it 
  as it pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Knapp Electric, Inc. of 739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana was 
  mainly a producer of electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I 
  pointed out in a previous post. Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " 
  The engine superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always 
  called it brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy 
  sheet BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass) Statement " The drivers 
  and tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of BRASS. Linen laminated 
  Celeron is used for insulation". Statement " The Knapp motor uses Alnico 
  permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > MR Oct 1938 statement " Wheels are 
  solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor operates from 
  transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone holding the 
  armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > MR Jan 1939 from Knapp "A Frank 
  Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all new 
  items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries of 
  their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting 
  problem). Later it claims all the problems were corrected which in reality 
  seems not to be true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph 
  about their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and 
  read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939 from 
  Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp engine and a 
  guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it return it. 
  Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the Bowser Redlands CA 
  name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hope this answers some of the questions. Knapp was originally a 6 
  volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The drivers were solid brass and insulated 
  at the hub which caused shorts through the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You 
  can see both types on the last picture. Knapp on top , Bowser on 
  bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I will relate here how different people have 
  different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had Knapp cast brass 
  Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal had a reddish tinge 
  and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges (Everything I know said all 
  drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his information came from. He said 
  he would share after the sale. the only thing he did mention was the previous 
  owner told him (and gave his name). He never followed up with more plus 
  pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To W Ray W. Check out the pictures as I 
  see no difference in the design of the drive train from Knapp to Bowser. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Any discussion on different opinions welcome. Again the 
  small amount of paper work and the engines limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" 
  come from numerous sources and collectors who I will believe till further 
  proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hope no mistakes. Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10523
						From: Chris B
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [6 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, the photos are always sharp and close, just like they should be.

                                                                                                                                                                                    It's not just a monster reference collection you've assembled and cataloged; 

                                                                                                                                                                                    and you're not just contributing text to an online research library; 

                                                                                                                                                                                    you're also providing an add'l resource of online reference photos for current and future vintage HO research work.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Someone ought to be giving you three paychecks!



                                                                                                                                                                                    From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: lennard@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 10:42:16 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Knapp / Bowser Mountain [6 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                    









    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                           Dennis, W Jay 
W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm sending 
some pictures to try to answer some questions posed about the differences 
between the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the later version put out by Bill 
Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to remember that when one company buys out 
anothers products there can be a "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if 
this is the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I write is fact or 
possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant into 
HO and they didn't last long. There have been no plans or assembly sheets that 
have come forward. Most of my information has been exchanged with members from 
other groups and close train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only 
printed word I can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model Supplies), 
MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with their "producers of miniature motors since 
1890'"motto) , MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 1939 
(which seems to be a final ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but will 
draw parts of it as it pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain 
questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Knapp Electric, Inc. of  
739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana  was mainly a producer of electrical 
parts. They didn't last long in HO as I pointed out in a previous post.  
Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " The engine superstructure is 
cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always called it brass). This statement 
has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy sheet BRASS. (All tenders I know of 
are cast brass)  Statement "  The drivers and tender truck wheels (hub 
mounted) are made of BRASS.  Linen laminated Celeron is used for 
insulation".  Statement " The Knapp motor uses Alnico permanent magnet 
field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         MR Oct 1938 statement " 
Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor 
operates from transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone 
holding the armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        MR Jan 1939  from Knapp "A 
Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all new 
items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries of 
their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting problem). 
Later it claims all the problems were corrected which in reality seems not to be 
true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph about their 6 volt 
motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       The last ad comes one month later, MR 
Feb 1939 from Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp 
engine and a guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it 
return it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the Bowser 
Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously 
noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Hope this answers some of the 
questions. Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The 
drivers were solid brass and insulated at the hub which caused shorts through 
the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see both types on the last picture. 
Knapp on top , Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I will relate here how 
different people have different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had 
Knapp cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal had 
a reddish tinge  and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges 
(Everything I know said all drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his 
information came from. He said he would share after the sale. the only thing he 
did mention was the previous owner told him (and gave his name). He never 
followed up with more plus pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        To W Ray W. Check out the 
pictures as I see no difference in the design of the drive train from Knapp to 
Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       Any discussion on different opinions 
welcome. Again the small  amount of paper work and the engines limits 
being 100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous sources and collectors 
who I will believe till further proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                             Hope 
no 
mistakes.                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10524
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Your are right about Scullen-Disk as the name. However with my deteriorating 
brain I'll forget it in 3 days. Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:04 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New (old) Lokie 
  i.d. puzzle to ask about
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, You are probably trying to think of "Scullen-Disk" drivers, on the 
  Bowser version, but I too don't understand the separate cab even though 
  everything else seems to match. Also sounds like a Varney weight was installed 
  for more traction power -- at the risk of burning out the motor. Ray F 
  W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From what you describe and what W Jay W suspects I will agree that it 
  is most likely the Bowser ( Bill Bowser / Redlands Calif. ) 4-8-2 Mountain. 
  The description of what would be the original brass tender (with the cast 
  water scoop and air brake cylinder) fits.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > There are two 
  things that don't. One is the original bodies had the cab as part of the 
  boiler casting, one piece. This could be separate from somebody working on it. 
  The other is what you describe as a metal weight in the boiler that is loose. 
  The original cast brass boiler was very heavy and didn't need a weight. Again 
  someone could have modified it somewhat. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Everything else 
  matches but there is one thing you didn't mention and that is the type of 
  drivers. Are they cast with the little round holes (forget the name Bo-Pox ?) 
  or are they brass with spokes. The reason I say this was the original cast 
  brass Mountain was made pre war by Knapp (same engine boiler, same tender) 
  however the Knapp engine had a 6 volt motor (so be careful) and had spoked 
  brass drivers that had a major problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > That is why Bill 
  Bowser / Redlands CA bought the Knapp Mountain out. He changed the motor to 12 
  volt (drive still looked the same) but he changed to the cast drivers to 
  correct a shorting problem and changed the valve gear. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: Dennis Thompson 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 5:26 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] New 
  (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I picked up a locomotive that mystifies me, (which doesn't 
  take much 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > !). No i.d.; and sold as no i.d. I have not yet 
  dis-assembled 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > anything, so these are my first, external observations: 
  Cast Brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > boiler; I think the cab is separate, and also cast. She is 
  a 4-8-2; 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > alligator crossheads. Cast, separate smokebox cover with 
  center 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > headlight, bell mounted on front of smokebox cover, but up 
  top. Long 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > overhang from back of rear driver to end of locomotive, 
  which results 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > in a long, somewhat slender trailing truck frame. One 
  piece cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > brass tender which includes air brake cylinder and, of all 
  things, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > what appears to be a water scoop. (I haven't seen those 
  replicated very often)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > In viewing the engine broadside, the 
  worm gear sits horizontal over 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > second driver, with cast, (zamac?) 
  bearing on each end. (So 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > apparently a dedicated worm gear housing) 
  Bearings look odd, almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > like the old, round, "split-shot, " 
  fishing weights used to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > look. Behind the rearmost bearing the motor 
  drive shaft can be seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > continuing, horizontal, rearward into the 
  firebox area.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Locomotive handrails present in the usual 
  places, but a second, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > four-stanchion- each-side set of handrails 
  exist near the top of the boiler
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Boiler contains a metal 
  weight, (which is loose). All boiler details 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > are cast-on. I see NO 
  identifying marks on this locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Without a photo, this 
  is not much for you all to go on. This one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > seems well built, and old. 
  I will ask if anyone has any tips as to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > where manufacturer' s 
  i.d. might be hidden.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dennis, the newly 
  afflicted... .........
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10525
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  John Hagen 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 2:09 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New (old) Lokie 
  i.d. puzzle to ask about [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Dunno if this will 
  help or not. From August 1948.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western 
  Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical 
  Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10526
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                     Good picture of the Bowser / Redlands CA 
Mountain which is what was supposed to be sent in the blank reply.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  John Hagen 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 2:09 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New (old) Lokie 
  i.d. puzzle to ask about [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Dunno if this will 
  help or not. From August 1948.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western 
  Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical 
  Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10527
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                         
  Thanks for the kind words. Just trying to help add information if 
possible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         This, Knapp / Bowser 
Mountain is tough. There are no Greenberg books (or anything similar) to run to. 
With limited sources to draw info from I am searching for "concrete" answers 
too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        This subject is based on mostly 
word of mouth from collector to collector as far as the Knapp engine. Without 
many "samples" showing up, no paperwork like assembly or parts sheets, no actual 
photographs, only drawings which might be altered and ads that may or may not be 
100% true, you are dealing with a hard subject to "pin down the 
facts".
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 2:14 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Knapp / Bowser 
  Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, the 
  photos are always sharp and close, just like they should be.

                                                                                                                                                                                    It's not 
  just a monster reference collection you've assembled and cataloged; 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    and you're not just contributing text to an online research library; 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    you're also providing an add'l resource of online reference photos for 
  current and future vintage HO research work.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Someone ought to be giving 
  you three paychecks!



                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  From: jim heckard 
  <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: lennard@etex. net
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 10:42:16 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Knapp 
  / Bowser Mountain [6 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Dennis, W 
  Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm sending 
  some pictures to try to answer some questions posed about the differences 
  between the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the later version put out by Bill 
  Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to remember that when one company buys out 
  anothers products there can be a "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if 
  this is the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I write is fact or 
  possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant 
  into HO and they didn't last long. There have been no plans or assembly sheets 
  that have come forward. Most of my information has been exchanged with members 
  from other groups and close train collector friends. Four advertisements are 
  the only printed word I can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model 
  Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with their "producers of miniature motors 
  since 1890'"motto) , MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 
  1939 (which seems to be a final ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but 
  will draw parts of it as it pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain 
  questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        Knapp Electric, Inc. of  
  739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana  was mainly a producer of 
  electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I pointed out in a previous 
  post.  Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " The engine 
  superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always called it 
  brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy sheet 
  BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass)  Statement "  The 
  drivers and tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of BRASS.  Linen 
  laminated Celeron is used for insulation".  Statement " The Knapp motor 
  uses Alnico permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         MR Oct 1938 statement " 
  Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor 
  operates from transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone 
  holding the armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        MR Jan 1939  from Knapp 
  "A Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all 
  new items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries 
  of their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting 
  problem). Later it claims all the problems were corrected which in reality 
  seems not to be true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph 
  about their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and 
  read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       The last ad comes one month later, 
  MR Feb 1939 from Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the 
  Knapp engine and a guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't 
  like it return it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the 
  Bowser Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously 
  noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        Hope this answers some of the 
  questions. Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The 
  drivers were solid brass and insulated at the hub which caused shorts through 
  the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see both types on the last picture. 
  Knapp on top , Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         I will relate here how 
  different people have different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had 
  Knapp cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal 
  had a reddish tinge  and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges 
  (Everything I know said all drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his 
  information came from. He said he would share after the sale. the only thing 
  he did mention was the previous owner told him (and gave his name). He never 
  followed up with more plus pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        To W Ray W. Check out the 
  pictures as I see no difference in the design of the drive train from Knapp to 
  Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       Any discussion on different opinions 
  welcome. Again the small  amount of paper work and the engines 
  limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous sources and collectors 
  who I will believe till further proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                             Hope 
  no 
  mistakes.                             
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10528
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jay,  I've also found five versions of the Silver Streak Sante Fe reefers listed in the 1950 Model R.R. Equipment Corp.'s catalog, even though only one Sante Fe version is listed in their 1953 catalog.  As Carmen ("Ma") Webster has been known to be wrong more than once, I question whether there actually were 5 versions of the Sante Fe reefer produced by Silver Streak.  Would you have anything else besides Webster's catalog to verify this?  I will admit, it's an odd coincidence that she lists FOUR of the versions which Walthers introduced in 1978 as NEW, but then these were all prototypically named AT&SF (SFRD) reefer versions so to use any other names would have been blatently wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The only Silver Streak (Pacific H0 - Silver Streak) Sante Fe refrigerator car kit that George Menzies advertised in Walthers' catalogs was the Kit # S410 - "Chief (West)" - #24332, which was the same version (and same sole Silver Streak catalog number) that Walthers advertised for Silver Streak before Menzies bought them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
After buying Pacific H0 - Silver Streak from Menzies in 1972, Walthers brought out the Sante Fe "Chief" - #24082 under the same catalog number S410, but with their prefix (929) number for that line of kits.  In 1978, Walthers first advertised the Sante Fe "Grand Canyon" - #26079 - under the same #(929)-410 kit number.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
All other "New" Walthers Silver Streak Sante Fe Reefers that were first introduced in 1978 had different catalog numbers, other than the one (#410) first used by original Silver Streak.  These were (all with prefix 929): 422 - "Chief (West)" #25963, 423 - "Super Chief" #26154, 424 - "El Capitan" #26133, 425 - "Scout" #26048, 426 - "Texas Chief" #26236, 427 - "San Francisco Chief" #26288.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Walthers did use two road numbers on some (many?) of their Silver Streak cars.  This was no exception on at least some of the Sante Fe reefers, when they added the "Super Chief" number #24375 in late production before selling the line of kits to Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff R.R.  All of these car numbers are in my collection as original kits (in original boxes).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
No need to post a list of Silver Streak models by manufacturing era, as that has already been done (I made a Silver Streak listing back in January 2008, which Chuck Higdon made into a spread sheet and filed).  It does need to be tweeked, as I noticed a couple of errors, and some car numbers were inadvertently omitted in the transition, but that's no problem to straighten out (I just noticed it now, when going back to it).  I did not go into Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff RR as I don't think anyone actually collects that line.  I could easily add a complete listing of that manufacturer's Silver Streak kits, but not being a collector of them, I don't have a single one, so can't even begin to include the car numbers.  The Y.O.H.N.P catalog numbers for the Sante Fe reefers include: #443 Grand Canyon, #444 Chief (West), #445 Super Chief, #446 El Capitan, #447 Scout, #448 Texas Chief and #449 San Francisco Chief.  Raymond Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                            
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Don D., Russ S,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Talk about research for the obscure information!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I found reference this evening that Silver Streak produced at least five
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> versions of the Santa Fe reefers 30+ years before Walthers; They are
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> individually listed on page 39 of the Model Railroad Equipment Corp.'s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1950 catalog, but as is typical of Webster's Catalogs, no manufacturer's
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> item number is given and there are no illustrations to record car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> numbers from. I am going to theorize that the last two of the seven
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> models that Walthers produced in the 1980's were also reintroduced,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> based on earlier Silver Streak models and will watch for a listing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The five cars listed in 1950 were: Chief (West), El Capitan, Grand
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Canyon, Scout and Super Chief, which correspond to five of the seven
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> later editions by Walthers (both manufacturers had the opposite sides,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> per prototype, with the identical "...all the way" slogan plus route
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> map;  the remaining two had the slogan, but no route map).  And Ye Olde
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Huff 'n Puff catalogs all seven cars as still in production today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Again, different stock numbers and we do not yet know if they changed the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> road numbers from Walthers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Both the 1949 original Silver Streak and later True-Scale Silver Streak
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> instructions on HOseeker note that the ends were first made of a pressed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> composition material they called "comprestic" ends (with no integral
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> fascia).  So it seems that is a good identification between original and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Walther's editions, as Don noted that the Walters catalog stated that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> their models had Styrene - simulated wood sheathed ends with facia and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> pre-drilled for grab irons.  And Don noted different road numbers for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Walthers, perhaps an ATSF model specialist has a list. But absent
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> orignal boxes and a list of road nembers, end material is a key to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> telling between the two.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> If anyone is interested, I can begin to keep and post a list of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> models by manufacturing era: A) Silver Streak original, B) Walthers and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> C) Huff Puff, by manufacturer's catalog numbers and road numbers.  Just
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> let me know what you have when you think of it or find them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Amazing to realize that the same basic Silver Streak reefer kits, with
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> few changes, have been in production for 60 years, 1949-2009!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> And  actually, finding all seven, no matter which firm manufactured them
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> would be neat to run as a block on the layout, and in the end that is
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> what it is all about.  Whew!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > However the photo on the YOHP sight is actually of kit no. 445. :-(
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (On
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Walthers' website, the same error exists although they don't vcarry it
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > anymore.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > My comment about the plastic ends is from the 1984 Walthers' book, not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> sure
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > when they changed from die-cast to plastic.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I'm not sure, but every picture I've seen of pre-Walthers production
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> carries
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > a different car number.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > don.dellmann@
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: "the_plainsman" the_plainsman@
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 11:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Hi Russ S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Since no one else has weighed in all evening, and would not want you
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > lose sleep over it (LOL), believe it to be Silver Streak. Besides
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > graphics of both sides matching, if you look closely at the lower
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> edge of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > the sides, you should be able to detect they are made from a thin
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> plywood
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > (3 ply). Even in the Walthers era, (I'm looking at 1982 catalog
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> here, p.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 73) they, SS, had 7 different sets of sides for AT&SF. Yours would
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Walthers # 929-422 "Chief West"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Yours might also date from before Silver Streak was owned by
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Walthers, or
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > afterward by its current owner YOHP, who still ofers the car kit in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > current production #444:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > http://www.yeoldehuffnpuff.com/sstreakkits.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Some of today's kits may have soft white metal detail castings,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> while
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > during the original and Walthers days, castings were of hard diecast
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Zamac. Someone more familiar with them can date yours more
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> accurately
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > than I, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > While your example looks to be complete, for anyone looking for new
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > replacement detail parts, Ye Old Huff n' Puff still sells them
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> direct as
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > well as later editions of many Main Line (including poultry cars!)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > AC/L-W kits too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel rshiel01@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> H'lo all! This reefer arrived with a couple of Mainline/Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> metal
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> cars this week. I haven't been able to track it down...ID help
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> would be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> appreciated! Apologies for poor images...camera operator still
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> dealing
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> with too-smart camera...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> Santa Fe ice reefer #25963 BLT 12-29 WC 5-49 Ship Sante Fe all the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> way
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> one side, The Chief famous daily streamliner West on the other.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Looks
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> like silk-screened wooden sides, diecast ends, cemented to a wooden
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> carcass, diecast centre sill, full brake rigging, Kadee trucks and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> couplers. 'Rr11' is printed on the lower RHS...I thought maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> early
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> Varney, but couldn't find it in the Greenberg book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> Thanks in anticipation!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> Russ
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> The new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7: Faster, Safer,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >> Easier.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10529
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: must understand
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            This 
might be a little off topic but will explain a little to my sometime confusion. 
I think it is very important for me to state a medical condition that sometimes 
upsets my thought process. Just over a year ago I suffered a minor stroke that 
affected my vision (for a while) and some reasoning power, for lack of a better 
word. This small stroke, with lasting effects, causes me to forget things at 
crucial times. As one example I have a hard time putting a name to a face 
of a person I have known for a long time. Aphasia for me is a sometimes thing. I 
ask you to bear with me when I get my mix all talked up, especially on minor 
points. Major points feel free to correct me. I don't do it on purpose. No pity 
just a little understanding.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Thanks for 
listening                                 
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10530
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Frankly Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I haven't noticed you as being anymore mixed up/forgetful than the rest of us. Certainly not anymore than me. And I don't suffer from anything worse than being 66 with a case of crs (can't remember ……er, stuff)!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
We all thoroughly enjoy and look forward to your contributions here.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>         This might be a little off topic but will explain a little to my sometime confusion. I think it is very important for me to state a medical condition that sometimes upsets my thought process. Just over a year ago I suffered a minor stroke that affected my vision (for a while) and some reasoning power, for lack of a better word. This small stroke, with lasting effects, causes me to forget things at crucial times. As one example I have a hard time putting a name to a face of a person I have known for a long time. Aphasia for me is a sometimes thing. I ask you to bear with me when I get my mix all talked up, especially on minor points. Major points feel free to correct me. I don't do it on purpose. No pity just a little understanding.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                     Thanks for listening                                 Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10531
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jay, On the Pacific H0 "Golden Spike Series," Menzies first introduced the first seven of them (there are 9) in 1964, then added one new one in 1967 and another new one in 1971.  I have them all in original boxes.  Later on, Walthers also offered them, then started discontinuing them (#2001, #2002, #2004 & #2007) in 1979.  While on this subject, they are as follows:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Kit #2000 -- Undecorated
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-"--#2001 -- Fruit Growers Express - FGEX 1291
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-"--#2002 -- Burlington (CB&Q) - BREX 146
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-"--#2003 -- Western Fruit Express GN - WEFX 66347
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-"--#2004 -- American Refrigerator Transit WAB-MP - ART/MODX 2095
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-"--#2005 -- Pacific Fruit Express SP/UP - PFE 300208
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-"--#2006 -- Northern Pacific -- NPMX 173
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-"--#2007 -- Canadian National - NIRX 16523
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-"--#2008 -- American Refrigerator Transit MP-N&W - ART/RMDX 366
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
That's all nine,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Ray F. W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thank You, Ray. I had thought that might have been the case, but did not yet want to assume or conclude it.  I also have to go though the magazine ads and those sometimes helpful "Bull Session" and Dispatcher's Report's" columns as well.  When I began reading the magazines in the town library around 1962-1963, Pacific HO and Silver Streak were synonymous and I had no knowledge of all the complex past history!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Around the time I began seriously in HO, 1963-1964 the big modeling news was that new Pacific HO "Golden Spike Series" craftsman type, plastic kit for those modern 50' mechanical reefers, also later offered by Walthers (even in EL and PC versions)! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hello W Jay W., George Menzies did not start selling the Silver Streak line as "Pacific H0/Silver Streak" until 1961; before this time, as far as I find in sources other than magazine ads (which may tell more - I haven't checked them yet), the line was still being marketed only as "Silver Streak."  Unless ads show otherwise, it appears as though Menzies created the "Pacific H0" name in 1962; the Silver Streak line did have the Pacific H0 name associated with it in that year.  Ray F W.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Hi Rick, J.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Hal Prendergast, owner of Silver Streak had financial problems right in the middle of creating injection molded F7 A&B units and his business asssets were sold at liquidation aution in mid-1953 (Athearn Guide, P32.) The buyer was Irv Athearn, who had the work completed on the F-7's and they became the famous Globe units, later Athearn. My understanding is that is when all of Silver Streak became an Athearn property, but it was held and operated as a seperate unit.  But I'm not sure.  Is that when the Pacific HO name was coined?  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > The Athearn Guide is clear that either in late 1959 or early 1960, Athearn sold Silver Streak craft kit line as well as the Athearn metal kit lines to G&G Hobby Supply in San Dimas, CA. Owned by Menzies, the firm changed its name to Pacific HO in 1962, but later changed again to Menzies. (Athearn guide p 37.) I'm not sure if they took on the existing Pacific HO name at that time, or created it themselves. Menzies sold Silver Streak/Pacific HO to Walthers in 1970, and Walthers later sold Silver Streak to Ye Olde Huff n' Puff.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I'll keep an eye out for information when I go though my magazines, but I'm sure someone here will be able confirm or correct my statements and will be able to tell us exactly how True Scale, which also went though several owners, figures in. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > If anyone is interested, I can begin to keep and post a list of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > models by manufacturing era: A) Silver Streak original, B) Walthers and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > C) Huff Puff, by manufacturer's catalog numbers and road numbers.  Just 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > let me know what you have when you think of it or find them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >     Where do Pacific HO and Tru-Scale fall in that mix? I have some kits 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > with those manufacturers on the box. The boxes are identical other than 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > the name change, and both manufacturers were in San Dimas, CA.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > If flying is so safe then why do they call the airport the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > terminal?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10532
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, I looked under your photos where I thought I might find it under Jim Heckard Knapp or Jim Heckard Bowser, but can't find it.  Then I went to the files, but I don't find anything there either.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          I'm sorry if I did it again. It should have said W Jay W check out the pictures. But please check them out as I value your opinion. I know how I will get away from the problem. Anytime I send an Email or response to one I will just say All. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:25 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Hi Jim, Okay, I'd be glad to check out pics you posted -- if you're referring to me (Ray F W) ??? Looks like you may be mixing us (W Jay W. and R F W.) up again though despite our efforts to identify ourselves better as, while you're referring to Dennis, W Jay W and all, you asking for W Ray W (a combination of I.D.'s) to check out the pics. Just wanted to bring this to your attention. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Best, Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Dennis, W Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I'm sending some pictures to try to answer some questions posed about the differences between the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the later version put out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to remember that when one company buys out anothers products there can be a "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if this is the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I write is fact or possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they didn't last long. There have been no plans or assembly sheets that have come forward. Most of my information has been exchanged with members from other groups and close train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only printed word I can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with their "producers of miniature motors since 1890'"motto), MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 1939 (which seems to be a final ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but will draw parts of it as it pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Knapp Electric, Inc. of 739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana was mainly a producer of electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I pointed out in a previous post. Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " The engine superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always called it brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy sheet BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass) Statement " The drivers and tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of BRASS. Linen laminated Celeron is used for insulation". Statement " The Knapp motor uses Alnico permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > MR Oct 1938 statement " Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor operates from transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone holding the armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > MR Jan 1939 from Knapp "A Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all new items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries of their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting problem). Later it claims all the problems were corrected which in reality seems not to be true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph about their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939 from Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp engine and a guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it return it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the Bowser Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Hope this answers some of the questions. Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The drivers were solid brass and insulated at the hub which caused shorts through the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see both types on the last picture. Knapp on top , Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > I will relate here how different people have different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had Knapp cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal had a reddish tinge and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges (Everything I know said all drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his information came from. He said he would share after the sale. the only thing he did mention was the previous owner told him (and gave his name). He never followed up with more plus pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > To W Ray W. Check out the pictures as I see no difference in the design of the drive train from Knapp to Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Any discussion on different opinions welcome. Again the small amount of paper work and the engines limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous sources and collectors who I will believe till further proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Hope no mistakes. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10533
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Hello W Jay W., George Menzies did not start selling the Silver
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Streak line as "Pacific H0/Silver Streak" until 1961; before this
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> time, as far as I find in sources other than magazine ads (which may
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> tell more - I haven't checked them yet), the line was still being
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> marketed only as "Silver Streak."  Unless ads show otherwise, it
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> appears as though Menzies created the "Pacific H0" name in 1962; the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Silver Streak line did have the Pacific H0 name associated with it in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> that year.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                        Where does Tru-Scale fall into the time line? Some of the kits that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have say Tru-Scale on the side of the box.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Why bake cookies when you can have a finger in every pie?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10534
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck,  I came across the assembly instructions -- including photo -- for my Sampson SL-15 Power Car.  If I mail you a copy, could you please post it up on the Group for the benefit of Mike (Bauers) and others who might want to see it?  If so, I will need your address again, please email it to me.  Many thanks. Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Could be I never posted it to the group site.  Making if very difficult for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> you to see it.  Try now.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 2:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck, Yeah, I THOUGHT we did a sheet on Sampson, but I don't see one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> That's why I wrote that I thought I remembered doing one with you -- but
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> didn't come up with one when I looked. I just now looked again, but still
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don't see it. All the lists filed under your name are in alphabetical order
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (I looked through them all) and there's Red Ball, then Silver Streak and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Strombecker, but no Sampson anywhere that I can see. Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10535
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        I just sent pictures this 
morning as an attachment. If for some reason you didn't receive them I will send 
direct to you, after this reply, for your comments.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 3:48 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser 
  Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, I looked under your photos where I thought I might find it under Jim 
  Heckard Knapp or Jim Heckard Bowser, but can't find it. Then I went to the 
  files, but I don't find anything there either. Ray F W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'm sorry if I did it again. It should have said W Jay W check out 
  the pictures. But please check them out as I value your opinion. I know how I 
  will get away from the problem. Anytime I send an Email or response to one I 
  will just say All. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:25 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 
  Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Hi Jim, Okay, I'd be glad to check out pics you posted -- if you're referring 
  to me (Ray F W) ??? Looks like you may be mixing us (W Jay W. and R F W.) up 
  again though despite our efforts to identify ourselves better as, while you're 
  referring to Dennis, W Jay W and all, you asking for W Ray W (a combination of 
  I.D.'s) to check out the pics. Just wanted to bring this to your attention. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Best, Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Dennis, W Jay 
  W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I'm sending some pictures to try to answer 
  some questions posed about the differences between the cast brass Knapp 
  Mountain and the later version put out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you 
  to remember that when one company buys out anothers products there can be a 
  "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if this is the case but have to 
  mention it. You decide if what I write is fact or possibly fiction. Also 
  remember that Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they didn't 
  last long. There have been no plans or assembly sheets that have come forward. 
  Most of my information has been exchanged with members from other groups and 
  close train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only printed word I 
  can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model Supplies), MR Oct 1938 
  ( Knapp ad with their "producers of miniature motors since 1890'"motto) , 
  MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 1939 (which seems to 
  be a final ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but will draw parts of it 
  as it pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Knapp Electric, Inc. of 739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana 
  was mainly a producer of electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I 
  pointed out in a previous post. Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " 
  The engine superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always 
  called it brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy 
  sheet BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass) Statement " The drivers 
  and tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of BRASS. Linen laminated 
  Celeron is used for insulation". Statement " The Knapp motor uses Alnico 
  permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > MR Oct 1938 statement " 
  Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor operates 
  from transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone holding 
  the armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > MR Jan 1939 from Knapp 
  "A Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all 
  new items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries 
  of their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting 
  problem). Later it claims all the problems were corrected which in reality 
  seems not to be true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph 
  about their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and 
  read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 
  1939 from Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp 
  engine and a guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it 
  return it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the Bowser 
  Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously 
  noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Hope this answers some of the questions. 
  Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The drivers were 
  solid brass and insulated at the hub which caused shorts through the valve 
  gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see both types on the last picture. Knapp on 
  top , Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > I will relate here how 
  different people have different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had 
  Knapp cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal 
  had a reddish tinge and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges 
  (Everything I know said all drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his 
  information came from. He said he would share after the sale. the only thing 
  he did mention was the previous owner told him (and gave his name). He never 
  followed up with more plus pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > To 
  W Ray W. Check out the pictures as I see no difference in the design of the 
  drive train from Knapp to Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Any discussion 
  on different opinions welcome. Again the small amount of paper work and the 
  engines limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous sources and 
  collectors who I will believe till further proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Hope no mistakes. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10536
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 3:02 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Hello W Jay W., George Menzies did not start selling the Silver
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Streak line as "Pacific H0/Silver Streak" until 1961; before this
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> time, as far as I find in sources other than magazine ads (which may
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> tell more - I haven't checked them yet), the line was still being
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> marketed only as "Silver Streak."  Unless ads show otherwise, it
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> appears as though Menzies created the "Pacific H0" name in 1962; the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Silver Streak line did have the Pacific H0 name associated with it in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> that year.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    Where does Tru-Scale fall into the time line? Some of the kits that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have say Tru-Scale on the side of the box.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Why bake cookies when you can have a finger in every pie?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
At the very minimum 1958-1961.  Probably older than 1958 but that's the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
earliest I can actually verify.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I didn't get into HO until December 1959, so anything older than that I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don't have personal experience.  (Prior to that I was in Lionel for 10 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
years.  So you don't have to do the math, I got my first Lionel trainset 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
when I was TWO.  I guess I've been into trains for most of my life <G>).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10537
						From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm sure we can all relate in one way or another... I had a Heart Attack several years ago, and a Triple Bypass. My cognitive skills were off line for a while, things like simple math... even writing a simple Thank You letter, became near impossible for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    







                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10538
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hey.  At least you have an excuse!  Me, I'm just gettin' old.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 2:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] must understand
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
        This might be a little off topic but will explain a little to my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
sometime confusion. I think it is very important for me to state a medical 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
condition that sometimes upsets my thought process. Just over a year ago I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
suffered a minor stroke that affected my vision (for a while) and some 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
reasoning power, for lack of a better word. This small stroke, with lasting 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
effects, causes me to forget things at crucial times. As one example I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a hard time putting a name to a face of a person I have known for a long 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
time. Aphasia for me is a sometimes thing. I ask you to bear with me when I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
get my mix all talked up, especially on minor points. Major points feel free 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
to correct me. I don't do it on purpose. No pity just a little 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
understanding.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                    Thanks for listening 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10539
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Go to the club page, on the left you'll see under "messages", "attachments". 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
All email attachments are archived there in chronological order with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
message subject header.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 2:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim, I looked under your photos where I thought I might find it under Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Heckard Knapp or Jim Heckard Bowser, but can't find it.  Then I went to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the files, but I don't find anything there either.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>          I'm sorry if I did it again. It should have said W Jay W check 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> out the pictures. But please check them out as I value your opinion. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> know how I will get away from the problem. Anytime I send an Email or 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> response to one I will just say All.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   From: erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:25 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   Hi Jim, Okay, I'd be glad to check out pics you posted -- if you're 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> referring to me (Ray F W) ??? Looks like you may be mixing us (W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> and R F W.) up again though despite our efforts to identify ourselves 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> better as, while you're referring to Dennis, W Jay W and all, you asking 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> for W Ray W (a combination of I.D.'s) to check out the pics. Just wanted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> to bring this to your attention.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   Best, Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   > Dennis, W Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   > I'm sending some pictures to try to answer some questions posed about 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the differences between the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the later 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> version put out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to remember that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> when one company buys out anothers products there can be a "switch over" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> using up parts. I don't know if this is the case but have to mention it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> You decide if what I write is fact or possibly fiction. Also remember 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> that Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they didn't last 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> long. There have been no plans or assembly sheets that have come forward. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Most of my information has been exchanged with members from other groups 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> and close train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> printed word I can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with their "producers of miniature 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> motors since 1890'"motto), MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> of MR Feb 1939 (which seems to be a final ad.). I don't intend to type 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> all the info but will draw parts of it as it pertains to the Knapp cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> brass 4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   > Knapp Electric, Inc. of 739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana was 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> mainly a producer of electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> pointed out in a previous post. Statement in the ad from Langes Model 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Supply " The engine superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I always called it brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> made of heavy sheet BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Statement " The drivers and tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> BRASS. Linen laminated Celeron is used for insulation". Statement " The 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Knapp motor uses Alnico permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   > MR Oct 1938 statement " Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> D.C. permanent magnet motor operates from transformer, Rectifier or 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone holding the armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   > MR Jan 1939 from Knapp "A Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Locomotives" Basically talks about all new items having problems that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries of their engine the first 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting problem). Later it claims 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> all the problems were corrected which in reality seems not to be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph about their 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 6 volt motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   > The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939 from Knapp. The ad 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp engine and a guarantee. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it return it. Needless 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> to say the next this engine appeared was under the Bowser Redlands CA 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   > Hope this answers some of the questions. Knapp was originally a 6 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The drivers were solid brass and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> insulated at the hub which caused shorts through the valve gear, Bowser 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> cast metal. You can see both types on the last picture. Knapp on top , 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   > I will relate here how different people have different facts. A man 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> selling on Ebay claimed he had Knapp cast brass Mountains for sale. He 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> said you could be sure as the metal had a reddish tinge and the middle 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> two spoked drivers had no flanges (Everything I know said all drivers 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> flanged). Knowing him I ask where his information came from. He said he 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> would share after the sale. the only thing he did mention was the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> previous owner told him (and gave his name). He never followed up with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> more plus pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   > To W Ray W. Check out the pictures as I see no difference in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> design of the drive train from Knapp to Bowser.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   > Any discussion on different opinions welcome. Again the small amount 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> of paper work and the engines limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" come 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> from numerous sources and collectors who I will believe till further 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   > Hope no mistakes. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10540
						From: Chris B
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    wouldn't that be vintage, not old?

                                                                                                                                                                                    works as an excuse for me when they don't want to run like they should, 

                                                                                                                                                                                    why not use it as an excuse when we just can't remember stuff that we're sure we used to know!



                                                                                                                                                                                    now where's that little envelope with that last part in it?...

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 5:23:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] must understand

                                                                                                                                                                                    









    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hey.  At least you have an excuse!  Me, I'm just gettin' old.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 2:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] must understand
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
This might be a little off topic but will explain a little to my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
sometime confusion. I think it is very important for me to state a medical 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
condition that sometimes upsets my thought process. Just over a year ago I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
suffered a minor stroke that affected my vision (for a while) and some 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
reasoning power, for lack of a better word. This small stroke, with lasting 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
effects, causes me to forget things at crucial times. As one example I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a hard time putting a name to a face of a person I have known for a long 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
time. Aphasia for me is a sometimes thing. I ask you to bear with me when I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
get my mix all talked up, especially on minor points. Major points feel free 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
to correct me. I don't do it on purpose. No pity just a little 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
understanding.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks for listening 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10541
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                    I picked up a Bowser (I believe) Mountain on eBay last year. I first thought with the bad picture, that it might be a Walthers or something. Got it in and it was painted, but the paint was rubbing off and showed the metal through, on the sand dome and other high spots.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Mine has the first and third driver axles with flanges and the second and fourth are blind wheels. Plus the valve gear is metal but looks a bit 'clunky'. Wheels are metal, maybe zamak, and there is a spring drive, similar to what they sometimes use in N Scale diesels, between the motor and the drive axle. I know the pilot deck was replaced at some point- it has 'Varney' stamped on it.

                                                                                                                                                                                    It does have the spoked wheels on it- did Bowser use only disc drivers, as in your pictures, or did they also offer spoked wheels?

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am thinking that this might be a hybrid engine
 that someone modified. I guess, as Popeye would way, 'I am what I am', and therefore this engine is what it is, and what it is, is a nice looking locomotive that runs pretty well considering its age.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I will try to upload pictures. Can't find my camera right now though. Last I used it was a couple days ago at the Metra commuter station photographing an old Pullman Standard gallery coach that Metra bought back after selling them all off a while ago. When I find the camera, I will take some pictures of the engine.

                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Sat, 5/9/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009, 12:53 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    






    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               There is a 
difference in the valve gear hangers. A change made ( I assume ) when 
Bowser changed to his drivers/valve gear. No modification I know. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          As for the rim 
insulated drivers you see . The solid brass drivers I was talking about were the 
pick up side. No added rims . The other side is hub insulated and as you 
noticed, and I didn't, rim too. I can't fully explain this. The original Knapp 
drivers had a pin that you peened over to attach the main rods. The pins on some 
of my drivers were "modified" with screws in holes to attach the main rod since 
the pins for peening missing .The most I know is the shorting occurred as the 
drivers rotated and allowed the valve gear to actually do the shorting. 
Something to that affect. While I don't completely understand what happened (and 
not sure anyone does) and have never seen any explanation in print. There was a 
major short that Knapp tried to rectify. Perhaps these insulated drivers (rim 
insulation added) were the changes Knapp tried to make (and didn't work either) 
after the problems with the first hundred had problems as stated in the ad. 
Maybe this is why my engine runs with out shorting
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I said I didn't have 
all the answers and was looking myself.     Thanks for 
taking notice.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 12:49 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser 
  Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Strange. The spoked drivers shown in the photos look to be rim insulated, 
  not hub insulated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    A good reference for driver types is here:
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.pacificl ocomotive. com/catalog. php

                                                                                                                                                                                    I 
  always liked Baldwin Disc drivers for detail.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I also notice a 
  difference in valve gear hangers on the two, or is that just customer 
  modification?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dennis, W Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  I'm sending some pictures to try to answer some questions posed about the 
  differences between the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the later version put 
  out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to remember that when one company 
  buys out anothers products there can be a "switch over" using up parts. I 
  don't know if this is the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I 
  write is fact or possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early 
  (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they didn't last long. There have been no 
  plans or assembly sheets that have come forward. Most of my information has 
  been exchanged with members from other groups and close train collector 
  friends. Four advertisements are the only printed word I can draw from. They 
  include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with 
  their "producers of miniature motors since 1890'"motto) , MR Jan 1939 
  Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 1939 (which seems to be a final 
  ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but will draw parts of it as it 
  pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Knapp Electric, Inc. of 739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana was mainly a 
  producer of electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I pointed out in 
  a previous post. Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " The engine 
  superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always called it 
  brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy sheet 
  BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass) Statement " The drivers and 
  tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of BRASS. Linen laminated Celeron 
  is used for insulation". Statement " The Knapp motor uses Alnico permanent 
  magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > MR Oct 1938 statement " Wheels are solid 
  BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor operates from 
  transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone holding the 
  armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > MR Jan 1939 from Knapp "A Frank 
  Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all new 
  items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries of 
  their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting 
  problem). Later it claims all the problems were corrected which in reality 
  seems not to be true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph 
  about their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and 
  read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939 from 
  Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp engine and a 
  guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it return it. 
  Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the Bowser Redlands CA 
  name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hope this answers some of the questions. Knapp was originally a 6 
  volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The drivers were solid brass and insulated 
  at the hub which caused shorts through the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You 
  can see both types on the last picture. Knapp on top , Bowser on 
  bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I will relate here how different people have 
  different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had Knapp cast brass 
  Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal had a reddish tinge 
  and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges (Everything I know said all 
  drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his information came from. He said 
  he would share after the sale. the only thing he did mention was the previous 
  owner told him (and gave his name). He never followed up with more plus 
  pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To W Ray W. Check out the pictures as I 
  see no difference in the design of the drive train from Knapp to Bowser. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Any discussion on different opinions welcome. Again the 
  small amount of paper work and the engines limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" 
  come from numerous sources and collectors who I will believe till further 
  proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hope no mistakes. Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10542
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                    While I have not had a stroke, I can relate to how it is for you. Me, I am Autistic- Asperger's Syndrome, more specifically, and am, at time, very particular about details, but with the mood stabilizers I am on (Doctor will not listen to me about how my trains do more for me than the pills do!) I tend to get things 'mixed up' easily. Plus, I am very bad with names and faces. Not good because I know a lot of people, being self employed. My friends at the bus line, I remember their badge numbers before I remember their names.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Anyway, this group has helped me a lot, really, as it is a group of people that I can share a common interest in. I want to thank everyone in this group, and apologize in advance in case in the future I step on someone's toes without realizing it- I can sometimes phrase things very wrong- easy to do online.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I also
 want to share what the vintage trains mean to me. Being a little 'different', as far as sensory orientation, the vintage card and wood trains bring me a lot of joy, in the unique feel of them in my hands, and the smell of the old models. The greasy mechanical smell of a locomotive, or better yet, the ozone smell from the old open frame motors, is relaxing to me. Opening the doors of a wood car for the first time, there is the unique smell, an antique smell that I love. Being mechanically oriented, I enjoy working on restoring mechanical parts and making things work. Plastic, it has an unpleasent feel to me usually, which is another reason I am not interested in the newer models.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I guess I've bent everyones' ears enough about this matter. Thanks for listening, this is a somewhat important subject for me.

                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Sat, 5/9/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] must understand
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009, 2:08 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    






    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                            This 
might be a little off topic but will explain a little to my sometime confusion. 
I think it is very important for me to state a medical condition that sometimes 
upsets my thought process. Just over a year ago I suffered a minor stroke that 
affected my vision (for a while) and some reasoning power, for lack of a better 
word. This small stroke, with lasting effects, causes me to forget things at 
crucial times. As one example I have a hard time putting a name to a face 
of a person I have known for a long time. Aphasia for me is a sometimes thing. I 
ask you to bear with me when I get my mix all talked up, especially on minor 
points. Major points feel free to correct me. I don't do it on purpose. No pity 
just a little understanding.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Thanks for 
listening                                 
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10543
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [6 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim and All:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
OK; I'm still running slow here.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim, your photos are great and I suspect what they depict is exactly what
I now have with the following exceptions:

                                                                                                                                                                                    
First, someone changed my tender trucks to a common freight car style,
Bettendorf I think.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Second, I have valve gear, but a little more elaborate and a different
valve gear hanger than your photos.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Still digging in between Bikes for Books for grade school yesterday,
assisted funeral service today, Mother's Day
tomorrow.......................

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 07:42 AM 5/9/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    [
Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
       Dennis, W Jay W, All,

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      I'm sending some pictures to
try to answer some questions posed about the differences between the cast
brass Knapp Mountain and the later version put out by Bill Bowser /
Redlands CA. I ask you to remember that when one company buys out
anothers products there can be a "switch over" using up parts.
I don't know if this is the case but have to mention it. You decide if
what I write is fact or possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an
early (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they didn't last long. There have
been no plans or assembly sheets that have come forward. Most of my
information has been exchanged with members from other groups and close
train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only printed word I
can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model Supplies), MR Oct
1938 ( Knapp ad with their "producers of miniature motors since
1890'"motto), MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR
Feb 1939 (which seems to be a final ad.). I don't intend to type all the
info but will draw parts of it as it pertains to the Knapp cast brass
4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Knapp Electric, Inc. of  739 E.
Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana  was mainly a producer of electrical
parts. They didn't last long in HO as I pointed out in a previous
post.  Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " The
engine superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I
always called it brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender
is made of heavy sheet BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast
brass)  Statement "  The drivers and tender truck wheels
(hub mounted) are made of BRASS.  Linen laminated Celeron is used
for insulation".  Statement " The Knapp motor uses Alnico
permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
     MR Oct 1938 statement " Wheels
are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor operates
from transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone
holding the armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    MR Jan 1939  from Knapp "A
Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks
about all new items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed
for deliveries of their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff
(The shorting problem). Later it claims all the problems were corrected
which in reality seems not to be true.They must have had more. This ad
has an entire paragraph about their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you
will have to get the ad and read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
   The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939
from Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp
engine and a guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't
like it return it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was
under the Bowser Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I
previously noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Hope this answers some of the questions.
Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The drivers
were solid brass and insulated at the hub which caused shorts through the
valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see both types on the last
picture. Knapp on top , Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
     I will relate here how different
people have different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had Knapp
cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal had
a reddish tinge  and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges
(Everything I know said all drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his
information came from. He said he would share after the sale. the only
thing he did mention was the previous owner told him (and gave his name).
He never followed up with more plus pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    To W Ray W. Check out the pictures as I
see no difference in the design of the drive train from Knapp to Bowser.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
   Any discussion on different opinions welcome.
Again the small  amount of paper work and the engines limits being
100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous sources and
collectors who I will believe till further proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                        
Hope no
mistakes.                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Attachment(s) from jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
6 of 6 Photo(s) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

IMG_3492_1.JPG

                                                                                                                                                                                    

IMG_3492_1.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                    

IMG_3493_2.JPG

                                                                                                                                                                                    

IMG_3493_2.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                    

IMG_3499_3.JPG

                                                                                                                                                                                    

IMG_3499_3.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                    

IMG_3500_4.JPG

                                                                                                                                                                                    

IMG_3500_4.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                    

IMG_3501_5.JPG

                                                                                                                                                                                    

IMG_3501_5.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                    

IMG_3503_6.JPG

                                                                                                                                                                                    

IMG_3503_6.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10544
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  
  

 
The Walchert's Valve gear hanger was reshaped on the Bowser Mountain
as shown.  Mine is the same shape.  Thanks for the driver references.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=======================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
curmudgeon wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Strange. The spoked drivers shown in the photos look to be rim
insulated, not hub insulated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
A good reference for driver types is here:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  http://www.pacificl ocomotive. com/catalog. php
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I always liked Baldwin Disc drivers for detail.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I also notice a difference in valve gear hangers on the two, or is that
just customer modification?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis, W Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm sending some pictures to try to answer some questions posed
about the differences between the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the
later version put out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to
remember that when one company buys out anothers products there can be
a "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if this is the case but
have to mention it. You decide if what I write is fact or possibly
fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant into
HO and they didn't last long. There have been no plans or assembly
sheets that have come forward. Most of my information has been
exchanged with members from other groups and close train collector
friends. Four advertisements are the only printed word I can draw from.
They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp
ad with their "producers of miniature motors since 1890'"motto) ,
MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 1939 (which
seems to be a final ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but will
draw parts of it as it pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain
questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Knapp Electric, Inc. of 739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana was
mainly a producer of electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I
pointed out in a previous post. Statement in the ad from Langes Model
Supply " The engine superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist
, I always called it brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender
is made of heavy sheet BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass)
Statement " The drivers and tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made
of BRASS. Linen laminated Celeron is used for insulation". Statement "
The Knapp motor uses Alnico permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> MR Oct 1938 statement " Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT
D.C. permanent magnet motor operates from transformer, Rectifier or
Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone holding the armature of this
motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> MR Jan 1939 from Knapp "A Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model
Locomotives" Basically talks about all new items having problems that
need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries of their engine the
first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting problem). Later it
claims all the problems were corrected which in reality seems not to be
true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph about
their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and
read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939 from Knapp. The ad
talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp engine and a
guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it return
it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the Bowser
Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously
noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hope this answers some of the questions. Knapp was originally a 6
volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The drivers were solid brass and
insulated at the hub which caused shorts through the valve gear, Bowser
cast metal. You can see both types on the last picture. Knapp on top ,
Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I will relate here how different people have different facts. A
man selling on Ebay claimed he had Knapp cast brass Mountains for sale.
He said you could be sure as the metal had a reddish tinge and the
middle two spoked drivers had no flanges (Everything I know said all
drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his information came from. He
said he would share after the sale. the only thing he did mention was
the previous owner told him (and gave his name). He never followed up
with more plus pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To W Ray W. Check out the pictures as I see no difference in the
design of the drive train from Knapp to Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Any discussion on different opinions welcome. Again the small
amount of paper work and the engines limits being 100 % sure. My
"facts" come from numerous sources and collectors who I will believe
till further proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hope no mistakes. Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10545
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about; Jim/Jay/et.al.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
You are welcome.  Most motors will take a little more voltage than
the rating but I don't advise pushing it.  Heat kills magnets and
excess voltage at prolonged running makes heat.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=======================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     Thanks for the explanation on how
to check a 6 volt vs. a 12 volt motor. I didn't know how. I do know
Knapp said you could run their 6 volt motors  up to 10 volts with out
harm (stated in an ad).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent:
Saturday, May 09, 2009 11:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject:
Re: [vintageHO] Re: New (old) Lokie i.d. puzzle to ask about;
Jim/Jay/et.al.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Black spoked drivers with silver rims were available at some
time for these locos.  I have them on mine.  It had Box-Pox when I
bought it.  The spoked drivers appear to be like the ones used on the
NYC Pacific loco.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Clean and lube the motor.  Try the motor up to 6 volts to see how it
runs.  Use a volt meter to keep a check on the progress.  Use an
ammeter to check current draw.  If it runs slow and sluggish and the
amps are low, try slow increases in voltage and feel the motor with
your fingers.  If it is 12 volt it will never get to hot to hold even
at 12 volts if it is in good condition, amps should be under 1 amp.  A
6 volt motor would be running fast at 6 volts.  If running slow and
hot, it could also be a bad magnet.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
============ ========= ========= ========= ===
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis Thompson wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks everyone.  More and more interesting all the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
First, this, "may," not be a separate cab.  I've been buried in outside
obligations almost all the time since this model showed up.  So I need
to really look closer as soon as I can break loose.  If so, it would
fit your conclusion better.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim, these are not box-pok, (?) drivers.  These are nicely made spoked
drivers, all flanged.  I am going to risk guessing these are not brass
drivers, which would remove this model from the pre-war driver problem
you mentioned.  BTW, what problem did the brass drivers have?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Next, how does one tell if the motor is 6V or 12V?  I had look quickly
at the current Bowser website's 4-8-2 and, while it looks very close,
it doesn't seem quite the same, (difference in minor details).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Now off to look at JW's link.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 02:58 PM 5/8/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dennis,  Lucky
you! Try this link, there is much more paperwork at HOseeker! You have
found one of the all time classic HO Steam Locomotives, and one with a
interesting history; good to hear you have the original brass tender
too.  Instead of telling more about it, I'll let you have the fun of
discovery and after looking over the information available there, then
search out the name here as well.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        http://www.hoseeker .org/assemblyexp losionBowser/ bowserbrass482mo untain.jpg
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I picked up a locomotive that mystifies me, (which doesn't take
much 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> !). No i.d.; and sold as no i.d. I have not yet dis-assembled 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> anything, so these are my first, external observations: Cast Brass
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> boiler; I think the cab is separate, and also cast. She is a
4-8-2; 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> alligator crossheads. Cast, separate smokebox cover with center 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> headlight, bell mounted on front of smokebox cover, but up top.
Long 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> overhang from back of rear driver to end of locomotive, which
results 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in a long, somewhat slender trailing truck frame. One piece cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> brass tender which includes air brake cylinder and, of all things,
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> what appears to be a water scoop. (I haven't seen those replicated
very often)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In viewing the engine broadside, the worm gear sits horizontal
over 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> second driver, with cast, (zamac?) bearing on each end. (So 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> apparently a dedicated worm gear housing) Bearings look odd,
almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> like the old, round, "split-shot, " fishing weights used to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> look. Behind the rearmost bearing the motor drive shaft can be
seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> continuing, horizontal, rearward into the firebox area.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Locomotive handrails present in the usual places, but a second, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> four-stanchion- each-side set of handrails exist near the top
of the boiler
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Boiler contains a metal weight, (which is loose). All boiler
details 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> are cast-on. I see NO identifying marks on this locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Without a photo, this is not much for you all to go on. This one 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> seems well built, and old. I will ask if anyone has any tips as to
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> where manufacturer' s i.d. might be hidden.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis, the newly afflicted... .........
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10546
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
No one of us remembers everything all the time.  Thanks for all you
contribute.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=======================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            This might be a little off
topic but will explain a little to my sometime confusion. I think it is
very important for me to state a medical condition that sometimes
upsets my thought process. Just over a year ago I suffered a minor
stroke that affected my vision (for a while) and some reasoning power,
for lack of a better word. This small stroke, with lasting effects,
causes me to forget things at crucial times. As one example I have a
hard time putting a name to a face of a person I have known for a long
time. Aphasia for me is a sometimes thing. I ask you to bear with me
when I get my mix all talked up, especially on minor points. Major
points feel free to correct me. I don't do it on purpose. No pity just
a little understanding.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Thanks for listening                                 Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10547
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Stephan,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I only know of 
"Scullen Disk"drivers being on the Bowser Mountain. I think Don S mentioned that 
you could buy different drivers for it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Modifications on original 
engines make it hard to say what you have, but if you don't mind them and the 
engine runs good for you that's all that matters. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I would like to see the 
spring belt drive set up beween the motor and drive axle.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 5:45 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / 
  Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                    I picked up a Bowser (I believe) Mountain on 
        eBay last year. I first thought with the bad picture, that it might be a 
        Walthers or something. Got it in and it was painted, but the paint was 
        rubbing off and showed the metal through, on the sand dome and other 
        high spots.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Mine has the first and third driver axles with 
        flanges and the second and fourth are blind wheels. Plus the valve gear 
        is metal but looks a bit 'clunky'. Wheels are metal, maybe zamak, and 
        there is a spring drive, similar to what they sometimes use in N Scale 
        diesels, between the motor and the drive axle. I know the pilot deck was 
        replaced at some point- it has 'Varney' stamped on it.

                                                                                                                                                                                    It does 
        have the spoked wheels on it- did Bowser use only disc drivers, as in 
        your pictures, or did they also offer spoked wheels?

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am 
        thinking that this might be a hybrid engine that someone modified. I 
        guess, as Popeye would way, 'I am what I am', and therefore this engine 
        is what it is, and what it is, is a nice looking locomotive that runs 
        pretty well considering its age.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I will try to upload pictures. 
        Can't find my camera right now though. Last I used it was a couple days 
        ago at the Metra commuter station photographing an old Pullman Standard 
        gallery coach that Metra bought back after selling them all off a while 
        ago. When I find the camera, I will take some pictures of the 
        engine.

                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- On Sat, 5/9/09, jim heckard 
        <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
          jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
          Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
          vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009, 12:53 
          PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                               
          There is a difference in the valve gear hangers. A change made ( 
          I assume ) when Bowser changed to his drivers/valve gear. No 
          modification I know. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                          As for the 
          rim insulated drivers you see . The solid brass drivers I was talking 
          about were the pick up side. No added rims . The other side is hub 
          insulated and as you noticed, and I didn't, rim too. I can't fully 
          explain this. The original Knapp drivers had a pin that you peened 
          over to attach the main rods. The pins on some of my drivers were 
          "modified" with screws in holes to attach the main rod since the pins 
          for peening missing .The most I know is the shorting occurred as the 
          drivers rotated and allowed the valve gear to actually do the 
          shorting. Something to that affect. While I don't completely 
          understand what happened (and not sure anyone does) and have never 
          seen any explanation in print. There was a major short that Knapp 
          tried to rectify. Perhaps these insulated drivers (rim insulation 
          added) were the changes Knapp tried to make (and didn't work either) 
          after the problems with the first hundred had problems as stated in 
          the ad. Maybe this is why my engine runs with out 
shorting
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                         I said I 
          didn't have all the answers and was looking 
          myself.     Thanks for taking notice.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
            Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
            curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
            Saturday, May 09, 2009 12:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: 
            [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            

                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    Strange. The spoked drivers shown in the photos look to be rim 
            insulated, not hub insulated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    A good reference for driver types 
            is here:
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.pacificl ocomotive. 
            com/catalog. php

                                                                                                                                                                                    I always liked Baldwin Disc drivers for 
            detail.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I also notice a difference in valve gear hangers on 
            the two, or is that just customer 
            modification?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dennis, W Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'm sending some pictures to try to answer some questions 
            posed about the differences between the cast brass Knapp Mountain 
            and the later version put out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask 
            you to remember that when one company buys out anothers products 
            there can be a "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if this is 
            the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I write is fact 
            or possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early 
            (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they didn't last long. There have 
            been no plans or assembly sheets that have come forward. Most of my 
            information has been exchanged with members from other groups and 
            close train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only 
            printed word I can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes 
            Model Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with their "producers of 
            miniature motors since 1890'"motto) , MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the 
            final one I know of MR Feb 1939 (which seems to be a final ad.). I 
            don't intend to type all the info but will draw parts of it as it 
            pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Knapp Electric, Inc. of 739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, 
            Indiana was mainly a producer of electrical parts. They didn't last 
            long in HO as I pointed out in a previous post. Statement in the ad 
            from Langes Model Supply " The engine superstructure is cast 
            BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always called it brass). This 
            statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy sheet BRASS. 
            (All tenders I know of are cast brass) Statement " The drivers and 
            tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of BRASS. Linen laminated 
            Celeron is used for insulation". Statement " The Knapp motor uses 
            Alnico permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > MR Oct 1938 
            statement " Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent 
            magnet motor operates from transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot 
            battery". (Ad shows someone holding the armature of this 
            motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > MR Jan 1939 from Knapp "A Frank Statement 
            on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all new 
            items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for 
            deliveries of their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to 
            snuff (The shorting problem). Later it claims all the problems were 
            corrected which in reality seems not to be true.They must have had 
            more. This ad has an entire paragraph about their 6 volt motor. To 
            much to type, you will have to get the ad and read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
            The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939 from Knapp. The ad 
            talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp engine and a 
            guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it 
            return it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under 
            the Bowser Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I 
            previously noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hope this answers some of the 
            questions. Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later Bowser a 12 
            volt. The drivers were solid brass and insulated at the hub which 
            caused shorts through the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see 
            both types on the last picture. Knapp on top , Bowser on 
            bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I will relate here how different people 
            have different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had Knapp 
            cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the 
            metal had a reddish tinge and the middle two spoked drivers had no 
            flanges (Everything I know said all drivers flanged). Knowing him I 
            ask where his information came from. He said he would share after 
            the sale. the only thing he did mention was the previous owner told 
            him (and gave his name). He never followed up with more plus 
            pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To W Ray W. Check out the 
            pictures as I see no difference in the design of the drive train 
            from Knapp to Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Any discussion on different 
            opinions welcome. Again the small amount of paper work and the 
            engines limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous 
            sources and collectors who I will believe till further proof comes 
            out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hope no mistakes. Jim 
            H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10548
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                             
 I can't wait to see the assembly instructions and photo for the Sampson 
SL-15 power car. I've always wanted one for my collection but this will fill in 
blanks about this true vintage, hard to find item.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 4:06 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson 
  Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck, I came across the assembly instructions -- including photo -- for 
  my Sampson SL-15 Power Car. If I mail you a copy, could you please post it up 
  on the Group for the benefit of Mike (Bauers) and others who might want to see 
  it? If so, I will need your address again, please email it to me. Many thanks. 
  Ray W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Could be I 
  never posted it to the group site. Making if very difficult for
                                                                                                                                                                                    > you to 
  see it. Try now.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Chuck Higdon - check out 
  my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > _____ 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] 
  On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 2:53 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Chuck, Yeah, I THOUGHT 
  we did a sheet on Sampson, but I don't see one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > That's why I wrote 
  that I thought I remembered doing one with you -- but
                                                                                                                                                                                    > didn't come up 
  with one when I looked. I just now looked again, but still
                                                                                                                                                                                    > don't see 
  it. All the lists filed under your name are in alphabetical order
                                                                                                                                                                                    > (I 
  looked through them all) and there's Red Ball, then Silver Streak and
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Strombecker, but no Sampson anywhere that I can see. Ray F 
  W
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10549
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                    It is not a spring belt drive per se. At least to me, a spring belt drive is like what I found inside a Lindberg switcher I fixed for a friend. This is a long coil that serves as a motor shaft between the motor, and the worm gear.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am not entirely comfortable disassembling this engine. I do know it is a Knapp/Bowser, and was when manufactured, but it looks like over the years it has been fixed or modified.

                                                                                                                                                                                    At any rate, I found my camera in my laptop case. Pictures have been taken of the engine. 'll probably dump the pictures on my laptop and edit to web friendly size sometime tonight.

                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Sat, 5/9/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: jim heckard
 <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009, 5:54 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    






    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    Stephan,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I only know of 
"Scullen Disk"drivers being on the Bowser Mountain. I think Don S mentioned that 
you could buy different drivers for it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Modifications on original 
engines make it hard to say what you have, but if you don't mind them and the 
engine runs good for you that's all that matters. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I would like to see the 
spring belt drive set up beween the motor and drive axle.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 5:45 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / 
  Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                    I picked up a Bowser (I believe) Mountain on 
        eBay last year. I first thought with the bad picture, that it might be a 
        Walthers or something. Got it in and it was painted, but the paint was 
        rubbing off and showed the metal through, on the sand dome and other 
        high spots.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Mine has the first and third driver axles with 
        flanges and the second and fourth are blind wheels. Plus the valve gear 
        is metal but looks a bit 'clunky'. Wheels are metal, maybe zamak, and 
        there is a spring drive, similar to what they sometimes use in N Scale 
        diesels, between the motor and the drive axle. I know the pilot deck was 
        replaced at some point- it has 'Varney' stamped on it.

                                                                                                                                                                                    It does 
        have the spoked wheels on it- did Bowser use only disc drivers, as in 
        your pictures, or did they also offer spoked wheels?

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am 
        thinking that this might be a hybrid engine that someone modified. I 
        guess, as Popeye would way, 'I am what I am', and therefore this engine 
        is what it is, and what it is, is a nice looking locomotive that runs 
        pretty well considering its age.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I will try to upload pictures. 
        Can't find my camera right now though. Last I used it was a couple days 
        ago at the Metra commuter station photographing an old Pullman Standard 
        gallery coach that Metra bought back after selling them all off a while 
        ago. When I find the camera, I will take some pictures of the 
        engine.

                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- On Sat, 5/9/09, jim heckard 
        <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
          jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
          Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
          vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009, 12:53 
          PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                               
          There is a difference in the valve gear hangers. A change made ( 
          I assume ) when Bowser changed to his drivers/valve gear. No 
          modification I know. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                          As for the 
          rim insulated drivers you see . The solid brass drivers I was talking 
          about were the pick up side. No added rims . The other side is hub 
          insulated and as you noticed, and I didn't, rim too. I can't fully 
          explain this. The original Knapp drivers had a pin that you peened 
          over to attach the main rods. The pins on some of my drivers were 
          "modified" with screws in holes to attach the main rod since the pins 
          for peening missing .The most I know is the shorting occurred as the 
          drivers rotated and allowed the valve gear to actually do the 
          shorting. Something to that affect. While I don't completely 
          understand what happened (and not sure anyone does) and have never 
          seen any explanation in print. There was a major short that Knapp 
          tried to rectify. Perhaps these insulated drivers (rim insulation 
          added) were the changes Knapp tried to make (and didn't work either) 
          after the problems with the first hundred had problems as stated in 
          the ad. Maybe this is why my engine runs with out 
shorting
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                         I said I 
          didn't have all the answers and was looking 
          myself.     Thanks for taking notice.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
            Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
            curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
            Saturday, May 09, 2009 12:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: 
            [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            

                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    Strange. The spoked drivers shown in the photos look to be rim 
            insulated, not hub insulated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    A good reference for driver types 
            is here:
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.pacificl ocomotive. 
            com/catalog. php

                                                                                                                                                                                    I always liked Baldwin Disc drivers for 
            detail.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I also notice a difference in valve gear hangers on 
            the two, or is that just customer 
            modification?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dennis, W Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'm sending some pictures to try to answer some questions 
            posed about the differences between the cast brass Knapp Mountain 
            and the later version put out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask 
            you to remember that when one company buys out anothers products 
            there can be a "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if this is 
            the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I write is fact 
            or possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early 
            (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they didn't last long. There have 
            been no plans or assembly sheets that have come forward. Most of my 
            information has been exchanged with members from other groups and 
            close train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only 
            printed word I can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes 
            Model Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with their "producers of 
            miniature motors since 1890'"motto) , MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the 
            final one I know of MR Feb 1939 (which seems to be a final ad.). I 
            don't intend to type all the info but will draw parts of it as it 
            pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Knapp Electric, Inc. of 739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, 
            Indiana was mainly a producer of electrical parts. They didn't last 
            long in HO as I pointed out in a previous post. Statement in the ad 
            from Langes Model Supply " The engine superstructure is cast 
            BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always called it brass). This 
            statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy sheet BRASS. 
            (All tenders I know of are cast brass) Statement " The drivers and 
            tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of BRASS. Linen laminated 
            Celeron is used for insulation". Statement " The Knapp motor uses 
            Alnico permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > MR Oct 1938 
            statement " Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent 
            magnet motor operates from transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot 
            battery". (Ad shows someone holding the armature of this 
            motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > MR Jan 1939 from Knapp "A Frank Statement 
            on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all new 
            items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for 
            deliveries of their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to 
            snuff (The shorting problem). Later it claims all the problems were 
            corrected which in reality seems not to be true.They must have had 
            more. This ad has an entire paragraph about their 6 volt motor. To 
            much to type, you will have to get the ad and read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
            The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939 from Knapp. The ad 
            talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp engine and a 
            guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it 
            return it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under 
            the Bowser Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I 
            previously noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hope this answers some of the 
            questions. Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later Bowser a 12 
            volt. The drivers were solid brass and insulated at the hub which 
            caused shorts through the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see 
            both types on the last picture. Knapp on top , Bowser on 
            bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I will relate here how different people 
            have different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had Knapp 
            cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the 
            metal had a reddish tinge and the middle two spoked drivers had no 
            flanges (Everything I know said all drivers flanged). Knowing him I 
            ask where his information came from. He said he would share after 
            the sale. the only thing he did mention was the previous owner told 
            him (and gave his name). He never followed up with more plus 
            pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To W Ray W. Check out the 
            pictures as I see no difference in the design of the drive train 
            from Knapp to Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Any discussion on different 
            opinions welcome. Again the small amount of paper work and the 
            engines limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous 
            sources and collectors who I will believe till further proof comes 
            out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hope no mistakes. Jim 
            H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10550
						From: Jay Wanczyk
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                    Stephan, Jim H, Don D. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Mention of Bowser offering the spoked replacements, here is their May 1950 MR Advertisement, attached below. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10551
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
I could not get the attachment to open.  Is anyone else having a
problem with it.  I have no problems with any others.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=========================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jay Wanczyk wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Stephan, Jim H, Don D. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mention of Bowser offering the spoked replacements, here is
their May 1950 MR Advertisement, attached below. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10552
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Not sure what you did but the attachment is NOT a ".jpg" file.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Jay Wanczyk" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 6:27 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Stephan, Jim H, Don D. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mention of Bowser offering the spoked replacements, here is their May 1950 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
MR Advertisement, attached below.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10553
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi All, Sorry, that attachment of the Bowser Driver ad from May, 1950 did not "take" in my previous post, tried a second time but something is amiss here, will try again later.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Not sure what you did but the attachment is NOT a ".jpg" file.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "Jay Wanczyk" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 6:27 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Stephan, Jim H, Don D. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mention of Bowser offering the spoked replacements, here is their May 1950 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> MR Advertisement, attached below.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10554
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                        Stephen,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             I 
misunderstood. I was thinking in terms of a coil spring belt/ pulley drive like 
the Lindberg you mention. I realize now you meant a connection between motor and 
the worm gear for the driver. No don't take it apart.  (Oh by the way 
I got Stephen spelled right this time but it should be Steve)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 7:05 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / 
  Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                    It is not a spring belt drive per se. At 
        least to me, a spring belt drive is like what I found inside a Lindberg 
        switcher I fixed for a friend. This is a long coil that serves as a 
        motor shaft between the motor, and the worm gear.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am not 
        entirely comfortable disassembling this engine. I do know it is a 
        Knapp/Bowser, and was when manufactured, but it looks like over the 
        years it has been fixed or modified.

                                                                                                                                                                                    At any rate, I found my 
        camera in my laptop case. Pictures have been taken of the engine. 'll 
        probably dump the pictures on my laptop and edit to web friendly size 
        sometime tonight.

                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- On Sat, 5/9/09, 
        jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
          jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
          Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
          vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009, 5:54 
          PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    Stephan,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                           I 
          only know of "Scullen Disk"drivers being on the Bowser Mountain. I 
          think Don S mentioned that you could buy different drivers for 
          it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                        Modifications on 
          original engines make it hard to say what you have, but if you don't 
          mind them and the engine runs good for you that's all that matters. 
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                         I would like to 
          see the spring belt drive set up beween the motor and drive 
          axle.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
            Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
            Saturday, May 09, 2009 5:45 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: 
            Re: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            

                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    
              
              
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                    I picked up a Bowser (I believe) 
                  Mountain on eBay last year. I first thought with the bad 
                  picture, that it might be a Walthers or something. Got it in 
                  and it was painted, but the paint was rubbing off and showed 
                  the metal through, on the sand dome and other high 
                  spots.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Mine has the first and third driver axles with 
                  flanges and the second and fourth are blind wheels. Plus the 
                  valve gear is metal but looks a bit 'clunky'. Wheels are 
                  metal, maybe zamak, and there is a spring drive, similar to 
                  what they sometimes use in N Scale diesels, between the motor 
                  and the drive axle. I know the pilot deck was replaced at some 
                  point- it has 'Varney' stamped on it.

                                                                                                                                                                                    It does have the 
                  spoked wheels on it- did Bowser use only disc drivers, as in 
                  your pictures, or did they also offer spoked wheels?

                                                                                                                                                                                    I 
                  am thinking that this might be a hybrid engine that someone 
                  modified. I guess, as Popeye would way, 'I am what I am', and 
                  therefore this engine is what it is, and what it is, is a nice 
                  looking locomotive that runs pretty well considering its 
                  age.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I will try to upload pictures. Can't find my 
                  camera right now though. Last I used it was a couple days ago 
                  at the Metra commuter station photographing an old Pullman 
                  Standard gallery coach that Metra bought back after selling 
                  them all off a while ago. When I find the camera, I will take 
                  some pictures of the engine.

                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- 
                  On Sat, 5/9/09, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. 
                  net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                  

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: jim 
                    heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: 
                    [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
                    vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009, 
                    12:53 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                               
                    There is a difference in the valve gear hangers. 
                    A change made ( I assume ) when Bowser changed to 
                    his drivers/valve gear. No modification I know. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                          
                    As for the rim insulated drivers you see . The solid brass 
                    drivers I was talking about were the pick up side. No added 
                    rims . The other side is hub insulated and as you noticed, 
                    and I didn't, rim too. I can't fully explain this. The 
                    original Knapp drivers had a pin that you peened over to 
                    attach the main rods. The pins on some of my drivers were 
                    "modified" with screws in holes to attach the main rod since 
                    the pins for peening missing .The most I know is the 
                    shorting occurred as the drivers rotated and allowed the 
                    valve gear to actually do the shorting. Something to that 
                    affect. While I don't completely understand what happened 
                    (and not sure anyone does) and have never seen any 
                    explanation in print. There was a major short that Knapp 
                    tried to rectify. Perhaps these insulated drivers (rim 
                    insulation added) were the changes Knapp tried to make (and 
                    didn't work either) after the problems with the first 
                    hundred had problems as stated in the ad. Maybe this is why 
                    my engine runs with out shorting
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                         I 
                    said I didn't have all the answers and was looking 
                    myself.     Thanks for taking 
                    notice.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                         
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                          
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
                      Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
                      curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                      
                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
                      Saturday, May 09, 2009 12:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: 
                      [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                      

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Strange. The spoked drivers shown in the photos look to 
                      be rim insulated, not hub insulated.
                                                                                                                                                                                    A good reference 
                      for driver types is here:
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.pacificl ocomotive. 
                      com/catalog. php

                                                                                                                                                                                    I always liked Baldwin Disc 
                      drivers for detail.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I also notice a difference in 
                      valve gear hangers on the two, or is that just customer 
                      modification?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dennis, W Jay W, 
                      All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'm sending some pictures to try to 
                      answer some questions posed about the differences between 
                      the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the later version put 
                      out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to remember 
                      that when one company buys out anothers products there can 
                      be a "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if this is 
                      the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I 
                      write is fact or possibly fiction. Also remember that 
                      Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they 
                      didn't last long. There have been no plans or assembly 
                      sheets that have come forward. Most of my information has 
                      been exchanged with members from other groups and close 
                      train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only 
                      printed word I can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 
                      (Langes Model Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with their 
                      "producers of miniature motors since 1890'"motto) , MR Jan 
                      1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 1939 
                      (which seems to be a final ad.). I don't intend to type 
                      all the info but will draw parts of it as it pertains to 
                      the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Knapp Electric, Inc. of 739 E. Market 
                      St.Indianapolis, Indiana was mainly a producer of 
                      electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I pointed 
                      out in a previous post. Statement in the ad from Langes 
                      Model Supply " The engine superstructure is cast BRONZE". 
                      (Not a metallurgist , I always called it brass). This 
                      statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy 
                      sheet BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass) 
                      Statement " The drivers and tender truck wheels (hub 
                      mounted) are made of BRASS. Linen laminated Celeron is 
                      used for insulation". Statement " The Knapp motor uses 
                      Alnico permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > MR Oct 
                      1938 statement " Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT 
                      D.C. permanent magnet motor operates from transformer, 
                      Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone holding 
                      the armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > MR Jan 1939 
                      from Knapp "A Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model 
                      Locomotives" Basically talks about all new items having 
                      problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for 
                      deliveries of their engine the first 100 shipped were not 
                      up to snuff (The shorting problem). Later it claims all 
                      the problems were corrected which in reality seems not to 
                      be true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire 
                      paragraph about their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you 
                      will have to get the ad and read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The 
                      last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939 from Knapp. The 
                      ad talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp engine 
                      and a guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you 
                      don't like it return it. Needless to say the next this 
                      engine appeared was under the Bowser Redlands CA name 
                      owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously 
                      noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hope this answers some of the 
                      questions. Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later 
                      Bowser a 12 volt. The drivers were solid brass and 
                      insulated at the hub which caused shorts through the valve 
                      gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see both types on the 
                      last picture. Knapp on top , Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I will relate here how different people have 
                      different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had 
                      Knapp cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be 
                      sure as the metal had a reddish tinge and the middle two 
                      spoked drivers had no flanges (Everything I know said all 
                      drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his information 
                      came from. He said he would share after the sale. the only 
                      thing he did mention was the previous owner told him (and 
                      gave his name). He never followed up with more plus 
                      pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To W Ray W. Check 
                      out the pictures as I see no difference in the design of 
                      the drive train from Knapp to Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                      Any discussion on different opinions welcome. Again the 
                      small amount of paper work and the engines limits being 
                      100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous sources and 
                      collectors who I will believe till further proof comes 
                      out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hope no mistakes. Jim 
                      H
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10555
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ebay vintage listings - that SP Mike
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
John and All:

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I did bid on that modified early Mantua Mike, but it was snatched away at
the last second.  Probably not the heartburn for me I suspected
as  I have spent my, "vintage," budget down pretty badly
lately.  It would be interesting if the model showed up around here
now with photos as it did have a lot of appeal.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
On now to watch for something else,

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 05:31 AM 5/6/2009, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis and W. Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thank you for your kind comments. I do get off on a nostalgic siding at
times. It seems the older one gets the more those old memories are
cherished.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis, the truth of the matter is that while I would like that Mike, I
do have limitations on my RR budget and I have been pushing the limit
very hard of late. Including jumping for an undec Atlas HH660 at the TTS.
While I enjoy re-working the old stuff, being a GB&W guy It was a
must buy and my LHS (A very good LHS, BTW) was telling me they couldn’t
get undecs as of yet. But Enginehouse Services had them since Trainfest
and this was their last one so…….. Wonder what EHS did to get undecs? I
don’t know but their being located in Green Bay probably had something to
do with them going that extra mile.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
All this means if you are interested in that Mikado go for it and don’t
allow my interest dissuade you in any way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    John
Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG -
www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.5.325 / Virus Database: 270.12.19/2099 - Release Date:
05/05/09 13:07:00
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10556
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
I'm new here, but I was/am merely impressed with your helpfulness,
knowledge and quick response.  So now I'm supposed to think you are
actually older than 35???

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis, who's evidently the only one here over
50........................

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 12:08 PM 5/9/2009, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        This might be a
little off topic but will explain a little to my sometime confusion. I
think it is very important for me to state a medical condition that
sometimes upsets my thought process. Just over a year ago I suffered a
minor stroke that affected my vision (for a while) and some reasoning
power, for lack of a better word. This small stroke, with lasting
effects, causes me to forget things at crucial times. As one example I
have a hard time putting a name to a face of a person I have known for a
long time. Aphasia for me is a sometimes thing. I ask you to bear with me
when I get my mix all talked up, especially on minor points. Major points
feel free to correct me. I don't do it on purpose. No pity just a little
understanding.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                   
Thanks for
listening                                
Jim H 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10557
						From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand / A Passion for Vintage HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    Stephen... You touched on a topic that does not really seem to come too often... which is the love of Vintage HO. It seems we all write about the latest aquisitions, the latest quest for parts or information... the latest ebay finds... but none of us ever talk about what drew us into this niche to begin with. Are we allowed to talk only about the products, and not the passion? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    







                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10558
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand / A Passion for Vintage HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    It was the passion that led me to start the list.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: <MRLENGAL2U@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 11:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] must understand / A Passion for Vintage HO
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Stephen... You touched on a topic that does not really seem to come too 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> often... which is the love of Vintage HO. It seems we all write about the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> latest aquisitions, the latest quest for parts or information... the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> latest ebay finds... but none of us ever talk about what drew us into 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> this?niche to begin with. Are we allowed to talk only about the products, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and not the passion?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10559
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jay,  Had no problem here opening your attachment (PRECISION QUARTERED DRIVERS).  I just clicked on it and it opened immediately.  One thing I did notice was that while it stated " 69" Spoke Drivers or Scullen Drivers for HO available at your dealer's," there is no specific recommendation to use these two same size different style drivers interchangeably on the Bowser Mountain (or any other Bowser engine).  This was left to the initiative of the modeler -- but should be expected by the manufacturer to be undertaken when offering these drivers separately as it doesn't take much thought for the modeler to then use a different style driver to change the engine's appearance if he wanted to.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
With that in mind, if someone had such an engine now in their collection, it would seem to still be an "authentic" manufactured Bowser engine since Bowser helped to make any such changed possible from their advertising, even if the engine was not originally offered with Spoke Drivers.  On the other hand, but only as a thin line, A Varney engine (for example) having a driver style that was different than that which came in the kit might not be able to be considered as "authentic" only as Varney never freely advertised their drivers (whether same size or not); theirs were confined to their catalogs, presumedly for use as replacements, or at least they offered no ad to the public to help promote such a switch.  Many thanks for digging out that ad, really interesting the way things work out.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi All, Sorry, that attachment of the Bowser Driver ad from May, 1950 did not "take" in my previous post, tried a second time but something is amiss here, will try again later.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Jay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Not sure what you did but the attachment is NOT a ".jpg" file.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > don.dellmann@
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: "Jay Wanczyk" <the_plainsman@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 6:27 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Stephan, Jim H, Don D. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Mention of Bowser offering the spoked replacements, here is their May 1950 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > MR Advertisement, attached below.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10560
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim,  Found your attachment, but as it stated as it was downloading, that it was about to take about 11 or 12 minutes, I decided to go to "attachments" on the Group Page as Don suggested; it opened right away.  Pics look good, all the needed detail is easily seen.  Nice examples, matches what I have here; I see no difference in the drive train of Knapps or Bowser either.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        Dennis, W Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       I'm sending some pictures to try to answer some questions posed about the differences between the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the later version put out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to remember that when one company buys out anothers products there can be a "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if this is the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I write is fact or possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they didn't last long. There have been no plans or assembly sheets that have come forward. Most of my information has been exchanged with members from other groups and close train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only printed word I can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with their "producers of miniature motors since 1890'"motto), MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 1939 (which seems to be a final ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but will draw parts of it as it pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Knapp Electric, Inc. of  739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana  was mainly a producer of electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I pointed out in a previous post.  Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " The engine superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always called it brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy sheet BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass)  Statement "  The drivers and tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of BRASS.  Linen laminated Celeron is used for insulation".  Statement " The Knapp motor uses Alnico permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      MR Oct 1938 statement " Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor operates from transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone holding the armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     MR Jan 1939  from Knapp "A Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all new items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries of their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting problem). Later it claims all the problems were corrected which in reality seems not to be true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph about their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939 from Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp engine and a guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it return it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the Bowser Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Hope this answers some of the questions. Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The drivers were solid brass and insulated at the hub which caused shorts through the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see both types on the last picture. Knapp on top , Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      I will relate here how different people have different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had Knapp cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal had a reddish tinge  and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges (Everything I know said all drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his information came from. He said he would share after the sale. the only thing he did mention was the previous owner told him (and gave his name). He never followed up with more plus pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     To W Ray W. Check out the pictures as I see no difference in the design of the drive train from Knapp to Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    Any discussion on different opinions welcome. Again the small  amount of paper work and the engines limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous sources and collectors who I will believe till further proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                          Hope no mistakes.                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10561
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes I can post scan and post it.  Glad Jim
mentioned the below, as I missed your email altogether.  Address to follow.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 6:58
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:
Sampson Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                        
 I can't wait to see the assembly instructions and photo for the Sampson
SL-15 power car. I've always wanted one for my collection but this will fill in
blanks about this true vintage, hard to find item.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: erieberk

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 09,
2009 4:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re:
Sampson Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck, I came across the assembly instructions --
including photo -- for my Sampson SL-15 Power Car. If I mail you a copy, could
you please post it up on the Group for the benefit of Mike (Bauers) and others
who might want to see it? If so, I will need your address again, please email
it to me. Many thanks. Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Could be I never posted it to the group site. Making if very difficult for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> you to see it. Try now.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> _____ 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
[mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com]
On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 2:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck, Yeah, I THOUGHT we did a sheet on Sampson, but I don't see one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> That's why I wrote that I thought I remembered doing one with you -- but
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> didn't come up with one when I looked. I just now looked again, but still
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don't see it. All the lists filed under your name are in alphabetical
order
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (I looked through them all) and there's Red Ball, then Silver Streak and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Strombecker, but no Sampson anywhere that I can see. Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10562
						From: Dst8596587@aol.com
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The November 1949 issue of Model Railroader carried an ad that featured the Bowser 4-8-2 with Scullen drivers, Below the picture of the Mountain is a "real news bulletin" for Mountain owners and independent builders. This ad states that 69 inch spoke drivers are now availbe assembeled and quartered, which is a 5 minute installation on the Mountain. Just information for any interested.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sun, 10 May 2009 4:51 am
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    







                                                                                                                                                                                    











                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jay,  Had no problem here opening your attachment (PRECISION QUARTERED DRIVERS).  I just clicked on it and it opened immediately.  One thing I did notice was that while it stated " 69" Spoke Drivers or Scullen Drivers for HO available at your dealer's," there is no specific recommendation to use these two same size different style drivers interchangeably on the Bowser Mountain (or any other Bowser engine).  This was left to the initiative of the modeler -- but should be expected by the manufacturer to be undertaken when offering these drivers separately as it doesn't take much thought for the modeler to then use a different style driver to change the engine's appearance if he wanted to.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

With that in mind, if someone had such an engine now in their collection, it would seem to still be an "authentic" manufactured Bowser engine since Bowser helped to make any such changed possible from their advertising, even if the engine was not originally offered with Spoke Drivers.  On the other hand, but only as a thin line, A Varney engine (for example) having a driver style that was different than that which came in the kit might not be able to be considered as "authentic" only as Varney never freely advertised their drivers (whether same size or not); theirs were confined to their catalogs, presumedly for use as replacements, or at least they offered no ad to the public to help promote such a switch.  Many thanks for digging out that ad, really interesting the way things work out.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> Hi All, Sorry, that attachment of the Bowser Driver ad from May, 1950 did not "take" in my previous post, tried a second time but something is amiss here, will try again later.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > Jay.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > Not sure what you did but the attachment is NOT a ".jpg" file.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > don.dellmann@
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > From: "Jay Wanczyk" <the_plainsman@ >
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 6:27 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > Stephan, Jim H, Don D. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > Mention of Bowser offering the spoked replacements, here is their May 1950 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > MR Advertisement, attached below.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    

>
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

    
    




    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 



                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10563
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ray (F.W.), and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
As to "having anything else," I do have what I believe to be one of the "original" versions. It came from what seemed to be an estate lot I purchased, the newest items in the lot were remains of a metal Athearn RDC and two gold Globe F-units. Everything in that lot that was assembled and painted appeared to be done by the same hand. My Silver Streak reefer has the "Super Chief" lettering, not "Chief (West)."  It has the original "comprestic" ends, one corner was found partially chipped away to be able to "biopsy" it.  It has decades of grime, all of the cast metal detail parts are gone, due to cement failure, typical of the early hobby times.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The car number is 24375, and while the "Files" list notes that number was used by Walthers near the end of production, the finding of a new edition with the original composition ends almost ten years later, near the end of production, seems unlikely.  If you like, I will send you the "body" for examination. It also seems unlikely to me, despite all of the shortcomings of "Ma Webster's" catalog we have reviewed in the past, that they would have accurately forecast five models developed years later. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I was able to review some of the Silver Steak Ads and nothing conclusive yet.  Prendergast was certainly off in a number of different directions in the last couple years before the failure of his business and the liquidation sale in 1953, a $2000 Contest, The O-Scale injection molded old-time locomotive and then developing the HO F-7's.  There must have been "a reason" why "his friend" Athearn did not extend a loan, but instead watched him fail, then picked up the pieces for what must have been pennies on the dollar.  Perhaps a good story there to be uncovered.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm not sure about the True Scale connection, but my theory (to be proved or disproved) is that since Athearn had no wood production capabilities, and had already used True Scale, that he came up with a production and marketing agreement with True-Scale that was no doubt beneficial to both parties while it lasted. And as a secondary line to both's main business, Athearn/True-Scale saw no need to produce five versions of the "same" ATSF reefer, explaining the multiple ATSF's early discontinuance after Prendergast's exit. As I said though, all theories to be proved or disproved. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I will be keeping an eye out for more information on the ATSF Reefers and more of the original models and ask all interested to do the same!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Jay,  I've also found five versions of the Silver Streak Sante Fe reefers listed in the 1950 Model R.R. Equipment Corp.'s catalog, even though only one Sante Fe version is listed in their 1953 catalog.  As Carmen ("Ma") Webster has been known to be wrong more than once, I question whether there actually were 5 versions of the Sante Fe reefer produced by Silver Streak.  Would you have anything else besides Webster's catalog to verify this?  I will admit, it's an odd coincidence that she lists FOUR of the versions which Walthers introduced in 1978 as NEW, but then these were all prototypically named AT&SF (SFRD) reefer versions so to use any other names would have been blatently wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The only Silver Streak (Pacific H0 - Silver Streak) Sante Fe refrigerator car kit that George Menzies advertised in Walthers' catalogs was the Kit # S410 - "Chief (West)" - #24332, which was the same version (and same sole Silver Streak catalog number) that Walthers advertised for Silver Streak before Menzies bought them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> After buying Pacific H0 - Silver Streak from Menzies in 1972, Walthers brought out the Sante Fe "Chief" - #24082 under the same catalog number S410, but with their prefix (929) number for that line of kits.  In 1978, Walthers first advertised the Sante Fe "Grand Canyon" - #26079 - under the same #(929)-410 kit number.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> All other "New" Walthers Silver Streak Sante Fe Reefers that were first introduced in 1978 had different catalog numbers, other than the one (#410) first used by original Silver Streak.  These were (all with prefix 929): 422 - "Chief (West)" #25963, 423 - "Super Chief" #26154, 424 - "El Capitan" #26133, 425 - "Scout" #26048, 426 - "Texas Chief" #26236, 427 - "San Francisco Chief" #26288.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Walthers did use two road numbers on some (many?) of their Silver Streak cars.  This was no exception on at least some of the Sante Fe reefers, when they added the "Super Chief" number #24375 in late production before selling the line of kits to Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff R.R.  All of these car numbers are in my collection as original kits (in original boxes).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> No need to post a list of Silver Streak models by manufacturing era, as that has already been done (I made a Silver Streak listing back in January 2008, which Chuck Higdon made into a spread sheet and filed).  It does need to be tweeked, as I noticed a couple of errors, and some car numbers were inadvertently omitted in the transition, but that's no problem to straighten out (I just noticed it now, when going back to it).  I did not go into Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff RR as I don't think anyone actually collects that line.  I could easily add a complete listing of that manufacturer's Silver Streak kits, but not being a collector of them, I don't have a single one, so can't even begin to include the car numbers.  The Y.O.H.N.P catalog numbers for the Sante Fe reefers include: #443 Grand Canyon, #444 Chief (West), #445 Super Chief, #446 El Capitan, #447 Scout, #448 Texas Chief and #449 San Francisco Chief.  Raymond Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Don D., Russ S,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Talk about research for the obscure information!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I found reference this evening that Silver Streak produced at least five
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > versions of the Santa Fe reefers 30+ years before Walthers; They are
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > individually listed on page 39 of the Model Railroad Equipment Corp.'s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 1950 catalog, but as is typical of Webster's Catalogs, no manufacturer's
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > item number is given and there are no illustrations to record car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > numbers from. I am going to theorize that the last two of the seven
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > models that Walthers produced in the 1980's were also reintroduced,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > based on earlier Silver Streak models and will watch for a listing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The five cars listed in 1950 were: Chief (West), El Capitan, Grand
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Canyon, Scout and Super Chief, which correspond to five of the seven
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > later editions by Walthers (both manufacturers had the opposite sides,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > per prototype, with the identical "...all the way" slogan plus route
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > map;  the remaining two had the slogan, but no route map).  And Ye Olde
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Huff 'n Puff catalogs all seven cars as still in production today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Again, different stock numbers and we do not yet know if they changed the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > road numbers from Walthers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Both the 1949 original Silver Streak and later True-Scale Silver Streak
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > instructions on HOseeker note that the ends were first made of a pressed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > composition material they called "comprestic" ends (with no integral
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > fascia).  So it seems that is a good identification between original and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Walther's editions, as Don noted that the Walters catalog stated that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > their models had Styrene - simulated wood sheathed ends with facia and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > pre-drilled for grab irons.  And Don noted different road numbers for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Walthers, perhaps an ATSF model specialist has a list. But absent
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > orignal boxes and a list of road nembers, end material is a key to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > telling between the two.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > If anyone is interested, I can begin to keep and post a list of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > models by manufacturing era: A) Silver Streak original, B) Walthers and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > C) Huff Puff, by manufacturer's catalog numbers and road numbers.  Just
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > let me know what you have when you think of it or find them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Amazing to realize that the same basic Silver Streak reefer kits, with
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > few changes, have been in production for 60 years, 1949-2009!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > And  actually, finding all seven, no matter which firm manufactured them
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > would be neat to run as a block on the layout, and in the end that is
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > what it is all about.  Whew!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > However the photo on the YOHP sight is actually of kit no. 445. :-(
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > (On
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Walthers' website, the same error exists although they don't vcarry it
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > anymore.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > My comment about the plastic ends is from the 1984 Walthers' book, not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > sure
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > when they changed from die-cast to plastic.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I'm not sure, but every picture I've seen of pre-Walthers production
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > carries
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > a different car number.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > don.dellmann@
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > From: "the_plainsman" the_plainsman@
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 11:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Hi Russ S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Since no one else has weighed in all evening, and would not want you
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > lose sleep over it (LOL), believe it to be Silver Streak. Besides
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > graphics of both sides matching, if you look closely at the lower
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > edge of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > the sides, you should be able to detect they are made from a thin
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > plywood
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > (3 ply). Even in the Walthers era, (I'm looking at 1982 catalog
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > here, p.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 73) they, SS, had 7 different sets of sides for AT&SF. Yours would
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Walthers # 929-422 "Chief West"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Yours might also date from before Silver Streak was owned by
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Walthers, or
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > afterward by its current owner YOHP, who still ofers the car kit in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > current production #444:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > http://www.yeoldehuffnpuff.com/sstreakkits.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Some of today's kits may have soft white metal detail castings,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > while
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > during the original and Walthers days, castings were of hard diecast
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Zamac. Someone more familiar with them can date yours more
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > accurately
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > than I, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > While your example looks to be complete, for anyone looking for new
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > replacement detail parts, Ye Old Huff n' Puff still sells them
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > direct as
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > well as later editions of many Main Line (including poultry cars!)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > AC/L-W kits too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel rshiel01@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> H'lo all! This reefer arrived with a couple of Mainline/Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > metal
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> cars this week. I haven't been able to track it down...ID help
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > would be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> appreciated! Apologies for poor images...camera operator still
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > dealing
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> with too-smart camera...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> Santa Fe ice reefer #25963 BLT 12-29 WC 5-49 Ship Sante Fe all the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > way
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> one side, The Chief famous daily streamliner West on the other.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Looks
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> like silk-screened wooden sides, diecast ends, cemented to a wooden
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> carcass, diecast centre sill, full brake rigging, Kadee trucks and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> couplers. 'Rr11' is printed on the lower RHS...I thought maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > early
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> Varney, but couldn't find it in the Greenberg book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> Thanks in anticipation!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> Russ
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> The new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7: Faster, Safer,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> Easier.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10564
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm new here, but I was/am merely impressed with your helpfulness, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> knowledge and quick response.  So now I'm supposed to think you are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> actually older than 35???
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis, who's evidently the only one here over 50........................
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I couldn't even consider a bid at this time. Well, someone got a nice 2-8-2. Anyway I just received some a few vintage items, mostly from my Brother, that I will be keeping pretty much as built. Thes include an early production VArney F3 A & B, a Lindsay NW-2, a Mantua 0-4-0 Shifter and a Kemtron Baldwin switcher. As I get them up and running and the diesels painted, I will be posting some photos here.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The only one here over 50???? This is a geexer list if I ever saw one. There are some young guys here but not a lot, at least percentage-wise. And I think you may be one of them. Heck, even Don Dellmann is younger than me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10565
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: adhesive for windows
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                             A 
while back I asked for suggestions to use when replacing missing clear 
plastic celluloid material (not styrene materials) in certain trains. I had 
an Athearn RDC - 4 (now refurbished) that needed windows put in each end. These 
metal pieces have 5 separate windows and you can't use a strip. Each is 
individual.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I ask for 
suggestions and many replied . I tried some of them, only because I had not 
heard of a few or could not find them. It finally came down to one not named and 
I want to share it with you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Permatex 
Contact Cement  item number 25905.  This contact cement is very runny 
unlike like others I have tried that seem to be more congealed. This Permatex 
can be put on the tip of a pointed paint brush and applied to the edges 
where the windows material will go. It goes on easy and you don't need much to 
get material to hold. Press the clear material on and in seconds it's good and 
no mess. Since you use such a small amount there is nothing to squeeze out when 
pressing on the windows.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm sure everyone has their 
favorite adhesives for certain jobs  but to me this is the best for my 
needs.   Thanks to everyone that sent a answer.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10566
						From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                    Geee...I will be 42 in October....:)...does that make me a 
geezer??? LOL..according to my 2 teenagers it does...Bill(Penn Line Collector in 
Sunny oregon)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10567
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck,  I'll get that out to you in tomorrow's mail.  Thanks again for the help in posting it.  Looks like Jim is looking forward to seeing it too; I'm sending him a copy also.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yes I can post scan and post it.  Glad Jim mentioned the below, as I missed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> your email altogether.  Address to follow.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 6:58 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                           I can't wait to see the assembly instructions and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> photo for the Sampson SL-15 power car. I've always wanted one for my
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> collection but this will fill in blanks about this true vintage, hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> find item.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: erieberk <mailto:erieberk@...>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 4:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Chuck, I came across the assembly instructions -- including photo -- for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> my Sampson SL-15 Power Car. If I mail you a copy, could you please post it
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> up on the Group for the benefit of Mike (Bauers) and others who might want
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to see it? If so, I will need your address again, please email it to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Many thanks. Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> ps.com, "Chuck
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Could be I never posted it to the group site. Making if very difficult for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > you to see it. Try now.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://community. <http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > _____ 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] On
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 2:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Chuck, Yeah, I THOUGHT we did a sheet on Sampson, but I don't see one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > That's why I wrote that I thought I remembered doing one with you -- but
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > didn't come up with one when I looked. I just now looked again, but still
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > don't see it. All the lists filed under your name are in alphabetical
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> order
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > (I looked through them all) and there's Red Ball, then Silver Streak and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Strombecker, but no Sampson anywhere that I can see. Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10568
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Definitely looking forward to seeing 
it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 12:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson 
  Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck, I'll get that out to you in tomorrow's mail. Thanks again for the 
  help in posting it. Looks like Jim is looking forward to seeing it too; I'm 
  sending him a copy also. Ray F W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi 
  Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Yes I can post scan and post it. Glad Jim mentioned the 
  below, as I missed
                                                                                                                                                                                    > your email altogether. Address to follow.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > _____ 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] 
  On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 6:58 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I can't wait to see the 
  assembly instructions and
                                                                                                                                                                                    > photo for the Sampson SL-15 power car. I've 
  always wanted one for my
                                                                                                                                                                                    > collection but this will fill in blanks about 
  this true vintage, hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                    > find item.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  From: erieberk <mailto:erieberk@ ...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> 
  ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 4:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Chuck, I came across the assembly instructions -- including photo 
  -- for
                                                                                                                                                                                    > my Sampson SL-15 Power Car. If I mail you a copy, could you 
  please post it
                                                                                                                                                                                    > up on the Group for the benefit of Mike (Bauers) and 
  others who might want
                                                                                                                                                                                    > to see it? If so, I will need your address 
  again, please email it to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Many thanks. Ray W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- 
  In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com> 
  ps.com, "Chuck
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Higdon" <vze5crrw1@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > Could be I never posted it to the group site. Making if very difficult 
  for
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > you to see it. Try now.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > http://community. <http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104>
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  webshots.com/ user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > _____ 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou 
  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogrou 
  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com] On
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 2:53 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou 
  <mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson Passemger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Chuck, Yeah, I THOUGHT we did a sheet on Sampson, but I 
  don't see one.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > That's why I wrote that I thought I remembered 
  doing one with you -- but
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > didn't come up with one when I looked. 
  I just now looked again, but still
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > don't see it. All the lists 
  filed under your name are in alphabetical
                                                                                                                                                                                    > order
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > (I looked 
  through them all) and there's Red Ball, then Silver Streak and
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
  Strombecker, but no Sampson anywhere that I can see. Ray F W
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10569
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Bill,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    You ain't no geezer yet, you have to be at least 50 to qualify as an official geezer, after 60 you officially become an olde pharte!!!!!:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "SFLYERCRAZY@..." <SFLYERCRAZY@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 12:36:29 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: must understand

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Geee...I will be 42 in October....: )...does that make me a geezer??? LOL..according to my 2 teenagers it does...Bill( Penn Line Collector in Sunny oregon)
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10570
						From: Jim Waterman
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand / A Passion for Vintage HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'll have to chime in here - Why do I engage 
in Vintage HO?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    My story - my father, Vincent Waterman, was a train 
nut since he was a boy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    First with Lionel, then early attempts to bring 
scale to O, then a switch to HO as an early adult. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    So I grew up as son of a train nut, and soon, one 
myself. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    My dad had shelves full of interesting items, and 
lots of rolling stock. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    As a boy, I would pull down these boxes and explore 
the contents, usually trying to get them to run, and if not, attempting to fix 
or make something of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I never knew what would be in each box, but it was 
usually something different and interesting. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    He had bought part of the Penn Line along with 
Bowser and AHM/Life like, so we always had tons of PL laying around, both steam, 
diesel and their die cast flat cars. And lots of GG1's of course. Since he had 
only bought the parts and semi-completed inventory, it took some work to get a 
running engine. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    As my father got older (mid 1980's), his interests 
moved more to scale O, and he disposed of much of his HO. Having been an active 
HO person for years, I  picked up a bunch of it and have it  
today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Each piece brings back memories of the 1960's, when 
these items were running on our HO pike in central NJ. I can always remember HOW 
they run, which ones are smooth, how much they can pull, who had the best motors 
and gearing. Even though I thinned out about 10 years ago, I still have bunches 
of stuff, especially pieces that have special meaning to me. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Like my father, I have this stuff in a lot of 
boxes. I have newer stuff too, but the old stuff is more interesting. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    And the stories, photos and information shared here 
is both fun and interesting. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10571
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jay (W---W.) and All,  Glad to see you have one of the original versions of the "Super Chief" # 24375.  It's just stuff like this that we need to help establish what these early manufacturers actually made.  It's EXTREMELY doubtful too, that this is a Walthers car having leftover "comprestic" ends from several decades earlier, and when found with a box of other old stuff that only tends to at least give a hint of its probable age.  I believe, besides my listing it in the files as Walthers (kit #(929)-423), that I also included it as an original Silver Streak (S410) kit, with same car number -- if I'm not mistaken -- although I WAS starting to have my doubts after being away from looking into this early manufacturer since Jan. '08.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I posted yesterday (below), that Walthers only advertised the S410 Chief (West) #24332 for both Menzies Pacific H0 S.S. and the original Silver Streak, and that's all I DO see Walthers advertising.  I was fairly sure that both of these early manufacturers also produced at least the car you have though, and your car verifies this.  I also listed the S410 Grand Canyon #26079 in the files as original Silver Streak, as I have both of these as kits listed in my records as "haves" although I don't remember now what era they came from -- which is why I didn't mention them yesterday as I'd first need to check my collection to verify the manufacturing era.  I feel they must be early era though for me to have included them in the files as such at the time.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
One of these days soon I'll have to reorganize them to make things easier for me to find stuff.  When my wife was alive, she moved stuff all over the place to make room for stuff she wanted to store -- and it's like going through half an attic full of storage cartons to locate a manufacturer.  Maybe I shouldn't complain as I have a fairly nice collection, even if I can't find them (LOL).  Fortunately, I have everything made by a particular manufacturer sorted into storage cartons only containing a particular make, but it's still not easy to find any particular make.  I still have doubts if there were 5 Sante Fe style reefers made in the early years but it's starting to maybe look like a possible 3, without being sure yet though until I can locate that part of my collection.  I haven't seen anything to indicate that 5 versions were made however, and my take on this IF they were produced is the same as yours, in that if they were ever made they most probably were discontinued early.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I also go along with your train of thought on True-Scale's connection with Silver Streak, as by all appearances it looks like there was a much closer relationship than what it seems to be on the surface.  Oh, no need to send the Silver Streak body for my examination, although I appreciate the offer.  I'm just glad we're able to put another piece into the puzzle.  Like many others, there's so much more behind the scenes that are well known, and it only gets tougher as time goes on.  Many, many thanks for bringing this to the surface.  Best,  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Ray (F.W.), and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> As to "having anything else," I do have what I believe to be one of the "original" versions. It came from what seemed to be an estate lot I purchased, the newest items in the lot were remains of a metal Athearn RDC and two gold Globe F-units. Everything in that lot that was assembled and painted appeared to be done by the same hand. My Silver Streak reefer has the "Super Chief" lettering, not "Chief (West)."  It has the original "comprestic" ends, one corner was found partially chipped away to be able to "biopsy" it.  It has decades of grime, all of the cast metal detail parts are gone, due to cement failure, typical of the early hobby times.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The car number is 24375, and while the "Files" list notes that number was used by Walthers near the end of production, the finding of a new edition with the original composition ends almost ten years later, near the end of production, seems unlikely.  If you like, I will send you the "body" for examination. It also seems unlikely to me, despite all of the shortcomings of "Ma Webster's" catalog we have reviewed in the past, that they would have accurately forecast five models developed years later. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I was able to review some of the Silver Steak Ads and nothing conclusive yet.  Prendergast was certainly off in a number of different directions in the last couple years before the failure of his business and the liquidation sale in 1953, a $2000 Contest, The O-Scale injection molded old-time locomotive and then developing the HO F-7's.  There must have been "a reason" why "his friend" Athearn did not extend a loan, but instead watched him fail, then picked up the pieces for what must have been pennies on the dollar.  Perhaps a good story there to be uncovered.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm not sure about the True Scale connection, but my theory (to be proved or disproved) is that since Athearn had no wood production capabilities, and had already used True Scale, that he came up with a production and marketing agreement with True-Scale that was no doubt beneficial to both parties while it lasted. And as a secondary line to both's main business, Athearn/True-Scale saw no need to produce five versions of the "same" ATSF reefer, explaining the multiple ATSF's early discontinuance after Prendergast's exit. As I said though, all theories to be proved or disproved. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I will be keeping an eye out for more information on the ATSF Reefers and more of the original models and ask all interested to do the same!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Jay,  I've also found five versions of the Silver Streak Sante Fe reefers listed in the 1950 Model R.R. Equipment Corp.'s catalog, even though only one Sante Fe version is listed in their 1953 catalog.  As Carmen ("Ma") Webster has been known to be wrong more than once, I question whether there actually were 5 versions of the Sante Fe reefer produced by Silver Streak.  Would you have anything else besides Webster's catalog to verify this?  I will admit, it's an odd coincidence that she lists FOUR of the versions which Walthers introduced in 1978 as NEW, but then these were all prototypically named AT&SF (SFRD) reefer versions so to use any other names would have been blatently wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The only Silver Streak (Pacific H0 - Silver Streak) Sante Fe refrigerator car kit that George Menzies advertised in Walthers' catalogs was the Kit # S410 - "Chief (West)" - #24332, which was the same version (and same sole Silver Streak catalog number) that Walthers advertised for Silver Streak before Menzies bought them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > After buying Pacific H0 - Silver Streak from Menzies in 1972, Walthers brought out the Sante Fe "Chief" - #24082 under the same catalog number S410, but with their prefix (929) number for that line of kits.  In 1978, Walthers first advertised the Sante Fe "Grand Canyon" - #26079 - under the same #(929)-410 kit number.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > All other "New" Walthers Silver Streak Sante Fe Reefers that were first introduced in 1978 had different catalog numbers, other than the one (#410) first used by original Silver Streak.  These were (all with prefix 929): 422 - "Chief (West)" #25963, 423 - "Super Chief" #26154, 424 - "El Capitan" #26133, 425 - "Scout" #26048, 426 - "Texas Chief" #26236, 427 - "San Francisco Chief" #26288.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Walthers did use two road numbers on some (many?) of their Silver Streak cars.  This was no exception on at least some of the Sante Fe reefers, when they added the "Super Chief" number #24375 in late production before selling the line of kits to Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff R.R.  All of these car numbers are in my collection as original kits (in original boxes).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > No need to post a list of Silver Streak models by manufacturing era, as that has already been done (I made a Silver Streak listing back in January 2008, which Chuck Higdon made into a spread sheet and filed).  It does need to be tweeked, as I noticed a couple of errors, and some car numbers were inadvertently omitted in the transition, but that's no problem to straighten out (I just noticed it now, when going back to it).  I did not go into Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff RR as I don't think anyone actually collects that line.  I could easily add a complete listing of that manufacturer's Silver Streak kits, but not being a collector of them, I don't have a single one, so can't even begin to include the car numbers.  The Y.O.H.N.P catalog numbers for the Sante Fe reefers include: #443 Grand Canyon, #444 Chief (West), #445 Super Chief, #446 El Capitan, #447 Scout, #448 Texas Chief and #449 San Francisco Chief.  Raymond Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Hi Don D., Russ S,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Talk about research for the obscure information!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I found reference this evening that Silver Streak produced at least five
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > versions of the Santa Fe reefers 30+ years before Walthers; They are
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > individually listed on page 39 of the Model Railroad Equipment Corp.'s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 1950 catalog, but as is typical of Webster's Catalogs, no manufacturer's
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > item number is given and there are no illustrations to record car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > numbers from. I am going to theorize that the last two of the seven
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > models that Walthers produced in the 1980's were also reintroduced,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > based on earlier Silver Streak models and will watch for a listing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > The five cars listed in 1950 were: Chief (West), El Capitan, Grand
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Canyon, Scout and Super Chief, which correspond to five of the seven
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > later editions by Walthers (both manufacturers had the opposite sides,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > per prototype, with the identical "...all the way" slogan plus route
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > map;  the remaining two had the slogan, but no route map).  And Ye Olde
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Huff 'n Puff catalogs all seven cars as still in production today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Again, different stock numbers and we do not yet know if they changed the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > road numbers from Walthers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Both the 1949 original Silver Streak and later True-Scale Silver Streak
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > instructions on HOseeker note that the ends were first made of a pressed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > composition material they called "comprestic" ends (with no integral
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > fascia).  So it seems that is a good identification between original and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Walther's editions, as Don noted that the Walters catalog stated that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > their models had Styrene - simulated wood sheathed ends with facia and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > pre-drilled for grab irons.  And Don noted different road numbers for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Walthers, perhaps an ATSF model specialist has a list. But absent
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > orignal boxes and a list of road nembers, end material is a key to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > telling between the two.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > If anyone is interested, I can begin to keep and post a list of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > models by manufacturing era: A) Silver Streak original, B) Walthers and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > C) Huff Puff, by manufacturer's catalog numbers and road numbers.  Just
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > let me know what you have when you think of it or find them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Amazing to realize that the same basic Silver Streak reefer kits, with
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > few changes, have been in production for 60 years, 1949-2009!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > And  actually, finding all seven, no matter which firm manufactured them
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > would be neat to run as a block on the layout, and in the end that is
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > what it is all about.  Whew!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > However the photo on the YOHP sight is actually of kit no. 445. :-(
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > (On
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Walthers' website, the same error exists although they don't vcarry it
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > anymore.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > My comment about the plastic ends is from the 1984 Walthers' book, not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > sure
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > when they changed from die-cast to plastic.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > I'm not sure, but every picture I've seen of pre-Walthers production
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > carries
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > a different car number.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > don.dellmann@
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > From: "the_plainsman" the_plainsman@
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 11:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Hi Russ S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Since no one else has weighed in all evening, and would not want you
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > lose sleep over it (LOL), believe it to be Silver Streak. Besides
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > graphics of both sides matching, if you look closely at the lower
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > edge of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > the sides, you should be able to detect they are made from a thin
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > plywood
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > (3 ply). Even in the Walthers era, (I'm looking at 1982 catalog
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > here, p.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > 73) they, SS, had 7 different sets of sides for AT&SF. Yours would
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Walthers # 929-422 "Chief West"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Yours might also date from before Silver Streak was owned by
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Walthers, or
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > afterward by its current owner YOHP, who still ofers the car kit in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > current production #444:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > http://www.yeoldehuffnpuff.com/sstreakkits.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Some of today's kits may have soft white metal detail castings,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > while
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > during the original and Walthers days, castings were of hard diecast
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > Zamac. Someone more familiar with them can date yours more
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > accurately
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > than I, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > While your example looks to be complete, for anyone looking for new
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > replacement detail parts, Ye Old Huff n' Puff still sells them
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > direct as
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > well as later editions of many Main Line (including poultry cars!)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > AC/L-W kits too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel rshiel01@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >> H'lo all! This reefer arrived with a couple of Mainline/Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > metal
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >> cars this week. I haven't been able to track it down...ID help
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > would be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >> appreciated! Apologies for poor images...camera operator still
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > dealing
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >> with too-smart camera...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >> Santa Fe ice reefer #25963 BLT 12-29 WC 5-49 Ship Sante Fe all the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > way
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >> one side, The Chief famous daily streamliner West on the other.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Looks
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >> like silk-screened wooden sides, diecast ends, cemented to a wooden
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >> carcass, diecast centre sill, full brake rigging, Kadee trucks and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >> couplers. 'Rr11' is printed on the lower RHS...I thought maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > early
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >> Varney, but couldn't find it in the Greenberg book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >> Thanks in anticipation!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >> Russ
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >> The new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7: Faster, Safer,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >> Easier.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10572
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand / A Passion for Vintage HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    For me Vintage is having the stuff I grew up with, like some of the old Mantua, AHM stuff, sure I like brass, I don't have much and can't afford much anyway, but I still have a passion for my old AHM steamers...:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 2:05:33 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] must understand / A Passion for Vintage HO

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    It was the passion that led me to start the list.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: <MRLENGAL2U@aol. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 11:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] must understand / A Passion for Vintage HO

                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Stephen... You touched on a topic that does not really seem to come too 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > often... which is the love of Vintage HO. It seems we all write about the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > latest aquisitions, the latest quest for parts or information. .. the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > latest ebay finds... but none of us ever talk about what drew us into 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > this?niche to begin with. Are we allowed to talk only about the products, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > and not the passion?
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10573
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Some ebay vintage listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John,  Thought I'd get back here to your opening comment, as it fits right in with the thread on "Must Understand/A Passion for Vintage H0."  No need for explanations on taking tangents on nostalgia -- Aren't these sidings directly connected to the main line?  For many of us, these memories go back to times when we remember the real trains that caused us to want at least to have miniatures of these same trains to enjoy, since it's the memories of those trains we saw everyday in our youth that are part of what we cherish the most, and what started our interest in them.  This is one way to bring them back and enjoy them once again.  Your passion for the GB&W indicates that as well as Don's passion for the MILW Road and mine for the ERIE and NYC.  Those train models of our youth are what we cherish the most as they're the closest associated with that whole experience, both the models of that time as well as the real thing.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis and W. Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thank you for your kind comments. I do get off on a nostalgic siding at
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> times. It seems the older one gets the more those old memories are
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> cherished.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis, the truth of the matter is that while I would like that Mike, I do
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have limitations on my RR budget and I have been pushing the limit very hard
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of late. Including jumping for an undec Atlas HH660 at the TTS. While I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> enjoy re-working the old stuff, being a GB&W guy It was a must buy and my
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> LHS (A very good LHS, BTW) was telling me they couldn't get undecs as of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> yet. But Enginehouse Services had them since Trainfest and this was their
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> last one so.... Wonder what EHS did to get undecs? I don't know but their
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> being located in Green Bay probably had something to do with them going that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> extra mile.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> All this means if you are interested in that Mikado go for it and don't
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> allow my interest dissuade you in any way.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10574
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: GB&W #145 (nee #60)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 
GB&W #145 (nee #60)

 



                                                                                                                                                                                    Carrumba!
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I did not realize how long ago I posted the photo of my 0-6-0 project using Mantua and MDC components.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Well here is an update of the drive which is getting close to finished. I am just starting on the superstructure and will post some photos of that when there has been a tad more progress.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The drive consists of Mantua 0-4-0, 2-6-2 and 2-8-2 parts. The frame is made up of two parts 0-4-0 and one part 2-6-2. The side rods I made, the main rods are 2-8-2 (fit right on with no modification), the valve gear is mainly 2-8-2 with a bit of 2-6-2 thrown in. Crosshead guides are from the 0-4-0. The valve gear hanger was originally modified first production 2-8-2 (the ones with individual left and right stamped brass pieces) but they have since been replaced with scratch built hangers. The main purpose for all this work is to achieve the proper axle spacing of the prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I am including an attachment showing the prototypes drivers and valve gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Saint Francis, WI.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     <<...>>  <<...>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10575
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: GB&W #145 (nee #60) [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  
  

 
It looks good John.  It takes a lot of work for uneven axle
spacing.  Good job.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Carrumba!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I did not realize
how long ago I posted the photo of my 0-6-0 project using
Mantua and MDC components.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Well here is an
update of the drive which is getting close to finished. I am just
starting on the superstructure and will post some photos of that when there has been a tad more
progress.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    The drive consists
of Mantua 0-4-0, 2-6-2 and 2-8-2 parts. The frame is made up of two
parts 0-4-0 and one part 2-6-2. The side rods I made, the main rods are
2-8-2 (fit right on with no modification) , the valve gear is
mainly 2-8-2 with a bit of 2-6-2 thrown in. Crosshead guides are from
the 0-4-0. The valve gear hanger was originally modified first
production 2-8-2 (the ones with individual left and right stamped brass
pieces) but they have since been replaced with scratch built hangers.
The main purpose for all this work is to achieve the proper axle
spacing of the prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I am including an
attachment showing the prototypes drivers and valve gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Saint Francis, WI.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor,
Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Green
Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
<<...>>  <<...>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10576
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 9:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: must understand
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I'm new here, but I was/am merely impressed with your helpfulness,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> knowledge and quick response.  So now I'm supposed to think you are
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> actually older than 35???
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Dennis, who's evidently the only one here over 50........................
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I couldn't even consider a bid at this time. Well, someone got a nice 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 2-8-2. Anyway I just received some a few vintage items, mostly from my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Brother, that I will be keeping pretty much as built. Thes include an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> early production VArney F3 A & B, a Lindsay NW-2, a Mantua 0-4-0 Shifter 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and a Kemtron Baldwin switcher. As I get them up and running and the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> diesels painted, I will be posting some photos here.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The only one here over 50???? This is a geexer list if I ever saw one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> There are some young guys here but not a lot, at least percentage-wise. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> And I think you may be one of them. Heck, even Don Dellmann is younger 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> than me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Just 'cause you remember when they invented dirt........ <G>.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10577
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: <SFLYERCRAZY@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 11:36 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: must understand
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Geee...I will be 42 in October....:)...does that make me a  geezer???
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> LOL..according to my 2 teenagers it does...Bill(Penn Line Collector in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sunny
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> oregon)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> **************Recession-proof vacation ideas.  Find free things to do in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the U.S.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (http://travel.aol.com/travel-ideas/domestic/national-tourism-week?ncid=emlcntustrav00000002)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Heck you're still a teeny bopper <G>.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10578
						From: Rhbale@aol.com
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have gone through the 1959 through 
1964 issues of the West Coast Model Railroad Newsletter (a trade 
publication for dealers and distributors published by Thomas J. Ayres and 
sponsored by the Western Model Railroad Manufacturers Association) 
and although G&G made a sales announcement in every issue, only once 
did they mention the Athearn cars in detail. Here is the statement 
from the September 1960 issue: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    G & G Hobby Supply, PO Box 158, 
San Dimas, CA announces reintroduction of Athearn 40-foot metal box cars. 
Available for shipment in September at $2.75 are: A-102 El Capitan; A-105 Chief; 
A-106 Super Chief; A-111 Canadien National; A-118 DL&W; A-122 Northern 
Pacific; A-125 SAL; A-126 SP;  A-127 
UP.  Also special box cars at $3.20: 
A-175 B&O Sentinal; A-177 C&O Luminous; A-179 SP Overnight; A-180 Timken 
R.R. Red; A-181 Timken R. R. Yellow; A-183 Western Pacific; A-184 MP Eagle; and 
A-185 NC&StL; A-186 State of Maine.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    FYI 
the same issue carried the following tidbits:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Roundhouse has introduced 
a plastic version of its famous HO ore car fully decorated with trucks 
and coupler at $1.39 each. The previously introduced plastic flat car now 
includes a weight with a new price of $1.29.
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    Campbell Scale Models opens its doors 
for business with the introduction of #301 pile trestle for ballasted deck, #302 
pile trestle with open deck and timber tunnel portals.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Richard Bale 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10579
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 5/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    
Just 'cause you remember when they invented dirt........ <G>.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    [John Hagen] And a fine invention it was!
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10580
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak ATSF reefer, surprise & wrap-up
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Richard B, Ray F. W., Don D. and Russ S. and All!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Richard B, that West Coast Model Railroad Newsletter seems like a good resource to have, and document what an active regional group in the hobby those businessmen were. I had to smile at that reference to the short plastic 32'(?) Roundhouse flat car needing weight, I have one of the lightweight originals! Thanks for that initial G&G list. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Russ S, Thanks for bringing your ATSF reefer to the table.  Silver Streak was a nice line I had not thought of much, and mostly about  the cabooses, especially the Walthers-era Erie reissued caboose, plus DL&W and LNE cabooses as they are roads I model. As a result of your find and question, I dug though that small carton and discovered another early ATSF example I had and which led to me finally finding out much more on the firm, its history and that interesting series of ATSF reefers (and now will keep an eye out for more).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And Ray F W and Don D. - Looking though most of the Silver Streak ads from 1948 through 1952, I was amazed to see that despite their size, many full pages, double pages even a four page ad, how poorly they illustrated Silver Streak's products!  Too much ad copy, paragraphs explaining, for instance that they would use Roundhouse's couplers at one point, but only a few good photos on their models, never giving an indication of all the road names available!  No catalogs mentioned either.  I guess they were relying on the hobby shops to make that final sale. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I did notice a seperate instruction sheet dated 1949 just for ATSF reefers on HOseeker, and again think if just one or two different models existed, they would have simply mentioned alternate details on the regular sheet, but instead, redrew and printed a special sheet just for ATSF.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And now for that surprise:  I also went back to my ten or so small sized, pre-1948 Model Railroaders.  The February, 1947 Silver Streak full page ad on page 99 was very interesting.  Although hinting of a new boxcar kit, and simply picturing the black box with the profile of the Hart gondola on the top, it was the large lettering on the bottom of the page that caught my eye. "PACIFIC HO COMPANY, 1612 W. 109th St. Los Angeles 44, Calif."  The October and December ads for 1947 dropped reference to the "Pacific HO" corporate name.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
So it seems that "Pacific HO" was the corporate name all the while, and "Silver Streak" was simply the trade name, much the same as Model Die Casting used the Roundhouse name.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rhbale@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have gone through the 1959 through  1964 issues of the West Coast Model 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Railroad Newsletter (a trade  publication for dealers and distributors 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> published by Thomas J. Ayres and  sponsored by the Western Model Railroad 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Manufacturers Association)  and although G&G made a sales announcement in every 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> issue, only once  did they mention the Athearn cars in detail. Here is the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> statement  from the September 1960 issue:  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> G & G Hobby Supply, PO Box 158,  San Dimas, CA announces reintroduction of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Athearn 40-foot metal box cars.  Available for shipment in September at 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> $2.75 are: A-102 El Capitan; A-105 Chief;  A-106 Super Chief; A-111 Canadien 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> National; A-118 DL&W; A-122 Northern  Pacific; A-125 SAL; A-126 SP;  A-127  UP. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  Also special box cars at $3.20:  A-175 B&O Sentinal; A-177 C&O Luminous; 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> A-179 SP Overnight; A-180 Timken  R.R. Red; A-181 Timken R. R. Yellow; A-183 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Western Pacific; A-184 MP Eagle; and  A-185 NC&StL; A-186 State of Maine.   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> FYI  the same issue carried the following tidbits: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Roundhouse has introduced  a plastic version of its famous HO ore car fully 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> decorated with trucks  and coupler at $1.39 each. The previously introduced 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> plastic flat car now  includes a weight with a new price of $1.29. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Campbell Scale Models opens its doors  for business with the introduction 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of #301 pile trestle for ballasted deck, #302  pile trestle with open deck 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and timber tunnel portals. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Richard Bale  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10581
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 5/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Rhbale@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have gone through the 1959 through 1964 issues of the West Coast 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Model Railroad Newsletter (a trade publication for dealers and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> distributors published by Thomas J. Ayres and sponsored by the Western 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Model Railroad Manufacturers Association) and although G&G made a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> sales announcement in every issue, only once did they mention 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the Athearn cars in detail. Here is the statement from the September 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1960 issue:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Richard,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
is there a chance that you could scan the West Coast Newsletter?  I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
only one of them and found it very interesting, have sent it to Larry 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(hoseeker) for his website.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10582
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 5/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John, Jim and All
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Quite Frankly I have had CRS Syndrome for very many years now I think it is from learning so many diverse things I just can not get the things I want in the front of my brain arranged well enough to express myself, little lone things buried in the grey matter for so long a period as years and years. Anyway unless your mind is trained to actually retrieve this info it may come back in a spurt, like trying to think of a certain thing the more you try to remembver it the further away it gets, now just don't think about it and it enters yous thoughts like a hot flash you can not advoid voicing it and irritating you spouse. But it happens to all of us.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to all
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10583
						From: Rhbale@aol.com
						Date: 5/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold... 

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm not sure what you mean by scanning the industry newsletter? If you are 
asking for the page with the G&G announcement I can handle that but I can't 
scan more than a couple of selected pages.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have the first issue (November 1951) through April 1973 of the Model 
Railroad (industry) Newsletter. I'm not sure when Ayres stopped publishing the 
newsletter but he went in a very different direction around the middle 
70s. I have an extra copy of August 1966 and August 1968 which I will 
mail to the first person who requests them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Of possible interest to this group is the story of 
the Ayres/Tru-Scale/Suydam/Campbell/Timberline/ California Models/Alpine 
Division connection. If there is interest I will summarize it and post 
it in a week or so. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Carlsbad, CA
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Have you read the new Model Railroad Hobbyist on-line 
magazine?
                                                                                                                                                                                    Download it free at                                                                                                                                                                                     www.model-railroad-h                                                                                                                                                                                    obbyist.com 

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10584
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: <Rhbale@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 2:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gerold...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm not sure what you mean by scanning the industry newsletter? If you are
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> asking for the page with the G&G announcement I can handle that but I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> can't
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> scan more than a couple of selected pages.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have the first issue (November 1951) through April 1973 of the Model
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Railroad (industry) Newsletter. I'm not sure when Ayres stopped publishing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> newsletter but he went in a very different direction around the middle
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 70s. I have an extra copy of August 1966 and August 1968 which I will 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> mail to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the first person who requests them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of possible interest to this group is the story of  the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ayres/Tru-Scale/Suydam/Campbell/Timberline/ California Models/Alpine 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Division connection. If
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> there is interest I will summarize it and post  it in a week or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Carlsbad, CA
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
If it's not too much trouble please do.  I know certain Ayres and tru-scale 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
kits became Suydam, which became California Models, which became Alpine 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
division today, and I know Leo Campbell got his start working for Suydam, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and eventually acquired Timberline, but I'm sure it's not that simple.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10585
						From: Rhbale@aol.com
						Date: 5/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                    Don...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    You're pretty close to the facts except that Leo Campbell didn't really get 
his start with Ed Suydam. He got into the MR business through Tom Ayres who 
later helped finance him. And the link to California Models is through a former 
employee of Leo's who remained in California when Campbell moved to 
Durango.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    At the moment I'm transferring all my files to a new  computer, but 
I'll get going on the story later this week.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Carlsbad, CA 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Have you read the new Model Railroad Hobbyist on-line 
magazine?
                                                                                                                                                                                    Download it free at                                                                                                                                                                                     www.model-railroad-h                                                                                                                                                                                    obbyist.com 

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10586
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Richard B., I will appreciate it when you tell their story.  I'm also interested in a "sub-plot" that may or not have been covered. Ayers, at least in some of their original kits, including the Mission Cafe and Lumber Yard office, used metal detail castings by Weston.  Leo Campbell later purchased the Weston castings line, perhaps the most appreciated human figures in the hobby to this day.  (Weston was a recognized art sculptor.)  No matter, if anything not on that sub-plot, look forward to the main stories.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rhbale@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You're pretty close to the facts except that Leo Campbell didn't really get 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  his start with Ed Suydam. He got into the MR business through Tom Ayres 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> who  later helped finance him. And the link to California Models is through a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> former  employee of Leo's who remained in California when Campbell moved to  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Durango.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> At the moment I'm transferring all my files to a new  computer, but  I'll 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> get going on the story later this week.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Carlsbad, CA 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Have you read the new Model Railroad Hobbyist on-line  magazine?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Download it free at _www.model-railroad-h_ (http://www.model-railroad-h/) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> obbyist.com  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steps! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585010x1201462743/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=May
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Excfooter51109NO62)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10587
						From: jerrygart5
						Date: 5/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: GB&W #145 (nee #60)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ....> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Well here is an update of the drive which is getting close to finished. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    John-very nice work AND photography.  I look forward to seeing the engine in its final stages.  Should run like a Swiss watch!!   Jerry Garteiser
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10588
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 5/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: West Coast Model RR Newsletter
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Rhbale@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gerold...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm not sure what you mean by scanning the industry newsletter? If you 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> are asking for the page with the G&G announcement I can handle that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> but I can't scan more than a couple of selected pages.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have the first issue (November 1951) through April 1973 of the Model 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Railroad (industry) Newsletter. I'm not sure when Ayres stopped 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> publishing the newsletter but he went in a very different direction 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> around the middle 70s. I have an extra copy of August 1966 and August 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1968 which I will mail to the first person who requests them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of possible interest to this group is the story of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the Ayres/Tru-Scale/Suydam/Campbell/Timberline/ California 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Models/Alpine Division connection. If there is interest I will 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> summarize it and post it in a week or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Richard,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I know thats hard work... I am in the process of scanning selected pages 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
of ALL my magazines , and all my catalogs... would be interested in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
two extra copies if they are not yet spoken for. You may have noticed I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
am resident of Austria but I have an US business address where you might 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
send them too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
And I would be very interested in the story mentioned... being 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
fascinated by  Ed Suydams models since I learned about them first, back 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
in the seventies.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10589
						From: Jay Wanczyk
						Date: 5/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand / A Passion for Vintage HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim Waterman,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I could not let your comments about your father, Vincent's impact on your passion for vintage HO go by without mentioning again how your dad played a part in my passion for vintage HO as well! I was just a couple years into HO scale modeling when my dad took me to a show sponsored by the (NY) Metropolitan Council of Model Railroad Clubs circa 1966. Your dad (at least I believe it was him!) had a small table exhibit of his PRR box cabs (maybe other things), but all I saw was those box cabs, very impressed as I had just seen my first prototype B-1s a year or so before at Sunnyside! I picked up some sales sheets of his and later sent for a catalog, but no way I could afford that B-1 on my entire personal budget of about a five dollars a month. When I started going to train shows decades later, I would look for them, never seeing any, nor knew how scarce they were. Finally about 35 years later I found eBay and searched there.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Attached is a photo of the original kit I found. The description was not the greatest, so I only had one competitor and won it for about the price of what a (non DCC, non sound) modern Atlas HO engine would be. The strange part about the kit was the two extra pantographs, and those two lead trucks. The reason became clear when I unpacked it. It was in an original Trackside O1c box, and also contained the O1c instructions! The original owner must have had both, and put the O1 in the B-1 box! The seller, not RR savvy, nor very cooperative, as he was a big general merchandise re-seller, had no information, had no other brass locomotives then, so no leads to follow. The box is original, though, as the yellow sticker on top and another on the end bears the imprint of the large Trackside Specialties rubber stamp that was used in other Trackside purposes. Of course, I'm still looking for that O1c missing its original trucks! LOL!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    So I guess for many of us, our fathers played an important part of our love of the hobby. In my case, my dad's stories of the early NYSME New York City days and his time as a professional model builder, his taking me railfanning, to hobby shops, club shows and helping me build my layout. A key event was us building together that first craftsmen kit, the just introduced, all wood HO Quality Craft tri-level auto rack, he collected all his old modeling tools and went though each step, teaching me how to make and use jigs for duplicate parts, square cutting and assembly, etc., that kit took all winter. The capper was his having only one model locomotive of his own, but it was a big one: a partially completed 3/4" live steam PRR K-4 in the basement! Good thing my mom always liked trains!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    So Jim, you can see that your dad played a part in my quest for vintage HO models as well!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Jim Waterman <Watermaj@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 2:16:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: must understand / A Passion for Vintage HO

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'll have to chime in here - Why do I engage in Vintage HO?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    My story - my father, Vincent Waterman, was a train nut since he was a boy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    First with Lionel, then early attempts to bring scale to O, then a switch to HO as an early adult. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    So I grew up as son of a train nut, and soon, one myself. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    My dad had shelves full of interesting items, and lots of rolling stock. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    As a boy, I would pull down these boxes and explore the contents, usually trying to get them to run, and if not, attempting to fix or make something of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I never knew what would be in each box, but it was usually something different and interesting. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    He had bought part of the Penn Line along with Bowser and AHM/Life like, so we always had tons of PL laying around, both steam, diesel and their die cast flat cars. And lots of GG1's of course. Since he had only bought the parts and semi-completed inventory, it took some work to get a running engine. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    As my father got older (mid 1980's), his interests moved more to scale O, and he disposed of much of his HO. Having been an active HO person for years, I  picked up a bunch of it and have it  today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Each piece brings back memories of the 1960's, when these items were running on our HO pike in central NJ. I can always remember HOW they run, which ones are smooth, how much they can pull, who had the best motors and gearing. Even though I thinned out about 10 years ago, I still have bunches of stuff, especially pieces that have special meaning to me. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Like my father, I have this stuff in a lot of boxes. I have newer stuff too, but the old stuff is more interesting. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    And the stories, photos and information shared here is both fun and interesting. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim Waterman

                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10590
						From: Chris B
						Date: 5/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand / A Passion for Vintage HO + athearn bw shell
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    First, if someone still needs an Athearn SP Black Widow F unit shell, I just found one I don't need in my spares bin, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Second, I just have to chime in on the family model railroading passion thread with my own tribute.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I came from a tinplate mixed marriage.  Both of my folks were from Manhattan NYC, (and both were naval officers in WWII!).  But my father was devoutly std ga Lionel NYC, and my mother was even more passionate about railroad history, the NY, NH & H, and American Flyer style two rail model railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In the fifties, when my two brothers and I were young, my father started us on Lionel, but he traveled quite abit for the government, and my mother mocked the middle rail layout and replaced it with what eventually grew to be a 2 rail S empire that she owned and we built and operated in two big rooms in a big basement.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    But that's not what got me hooked on vintage HO.  She procured equipment for the AF empire at discount prices by haunting thrift shops and yard sales, bringing home boxes filled with metal AF rolling stock and engines, and piles of rusty track for us to bring back to life. She'd come downstairs a few times a year, and insist we put every engine through its paces for her inspection, and she loved to take over the throttles and run as many at once as our primitive block system would support.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In 1959 she scored a room ful of benchwork that had been an HO empire.  We took it down and reconstructed it as the center of the AF universe. The haul included two bound volume Model Railroaders, from 1941 and 1942 that became my bible for my someday layout.  Mel Thornburgh's loco scratchbuilding, all the HO mfgrs wartime ads about how after the war they'd come back better than ever, all the substitute bashing articles about pulling windshield wiper motors from junkyards for repowering tinplate locos...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Eric La Nal (Alan Rice) and other HO pioneers wrote articles about all the new mfgrs that were getting started making HO products that would be available after the war.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I knew as a boy that our AF layout would never meet that std, but those two bound volumes hooked me with the passion that my current vintage HO layout project is meant to express.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Metal engines, metal cars, metal structures, brass track, engine noise that comes from the engine, all the best of what makes it real for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    My dad is laid to rest in Arlington, but my mother is 88; and every week on saturday we have lunch at the Sykesville Md station and watch the CSX auto cars and hoppers go thundering by.  I'm building the AHM model of the station for her room at the nursing home, and every so often I bring a loop of track and some new engines to her room so she can run them around on the  floor herself. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I still have those two bound volumes of MR, and she still wants a report on the progress of the layout every week.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Those of us who caught this passion from others in our lives, whether parents or whatever, are pretty damn lucky to have it, and to have a group like this that shares it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10591
						From: solly_46
						Date: 5/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Needed Older  Athearn F7A Gear
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Please review Photos, Athearn Gear Needed. The loco is about 40-45 years old
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Randy
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10592
						From: Chris B
						Date: 5/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Needed Older  Athearn F7A Gear
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ok...I looked at the three photos in that folder.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I see a warbonnet F type diesel and a close up of a wheelset.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I found your old email that said " Wanted Athearn Black Widow Shell for F7A"
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I've got a plastic F unit shell in SP black widow paint scheme that I don't need.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I can't tell you how old it is or even if it is definitively Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: solly_46 <solly_46@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 12:22:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Needed Older Athearn F7A Gear

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Please review Photos, Athearn Gear Needed. The loco is about 40-45 years old

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    Randy


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10593
						From: Rhbale@aol.com
						Date: 5/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: West Coast Model RR Newsletter
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Send me your US postal address and I'll mail the two old magazines to 
you. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Cordially,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Carlsbad, California 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Have you read the new Model Railroad Hobbyist on-line 
magazine?
                                                                                                                                                                                    Download it free at www.model-railroad-h                                                                                                                                                                                    obbyist.com 

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 5/12/2009 12:47:05 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
corv8@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  


                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Rhbale@... 
  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Gerold...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'm not sure what 
  you mean by scanning the industry newsletter? If you 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > are asking for 
  the page with the G&G announcement I can handle that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > but I can't 
  scan more than a couple of selected pages.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I have the first 
  issue (November 1951) through April 1973 of the Model 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Railroad 
  (industry) Newsletter. I'm not sure when Ayres stopped 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > publishing the 
  newsletter but he went in a very different direction 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > around the 
  middle 70s. I have an extra copy of August 1966 and August 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 1968 which 
  I will mail to the first person who requests them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Of 
  possible interest to this group is the story of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > the 
  Ayres/Tru-Scale/ Suydam/Campbell/ Timberline/ California 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Models/Alpine Division connection. If there is interest I will 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  summarize it and post it in a week or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Richard,

                                                                                                                                                                                    I know thats hard work... I am in the process of scanning 
  selected pages 
                                                                                                                                                                                    of ALL my magazines , and all my catalogs... would be 
  interested in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    two extra copies if they are not yet spoken for. You may 
  have noticed I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    am resident of Austria but I have an US business address 
  where you might 
                                                                                                                                                                                    send them too.

                                                                                                                                                                                    And I would be very interested in 
  the story mentioned... being 
                                                                                                                                                                                    fascinated by Ed Suydams models since I 
  learned about them first, back 
                                                                                                                                                                                    in the seventies.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks 
  Gerold

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10594
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 5/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Needed Older  Athearn F7A Gear
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Randy,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I never did forget about you. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    This past weekend, I was doing some cleaning and organizing. I set aside a geared axle. I am not sure if it is an exact match, but it is vintage athearn. If i can get your address, I will mail it to you and you can try it out. I do not want anything for it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: solly_46 <solly_46@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 12:22:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Needed Older Athearn F7A Gear

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Please review Photos, Athearn Gear Needed. The loco is about 40-45 years old

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    Randy


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10595
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 5/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: West Coast Model RR Newsletter
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
Rhbale@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  

  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Send
me your US postal address and I'll mail the two old magazines to you. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cordially,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Richard
Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Carlsbad,
California 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Richard, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks. my business address is: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    The Vair Shop, 21403 S.80th Avenue, Frankfort
IL 60423
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
If you ever see a chance to have the others xerox copied , scanned or
duplicated in some other way  I would gladly pay for the expense. Dont
want to bother you for this ... There is not special content I could
ask you for, its just a great reference. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks again, Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10596
						From: Jim Waterman
						Date: 5/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: must understand / A Passion for Vintage HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jay
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the response - really means a lot to 
me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I remember that auction - I typed in Trackside 
Specialties and found out that it had completed ONE DAY AGO!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    A shame that the rest of the O-1 didn't show up as 
well. . 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I've been looking to pick up a couple of his models 
myself and was very disappointed to see that the auction went the day before and 
for a great price. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Glad to know the person that got it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    1966 was about the end of the line for his custom 
built engines. An attempt to do an L-6 ended because he couldn't find anyone to 
make the mechanism at a reasonable price. One prototype is out there somewhere, 
maybe it will show up on this list some day. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a number of Alco Models PRR electrics that 
were in my dad's collection, but he sold his entire set of Trackside Specialties 
originals (which I believe Jim Heckard has at least 2 of) and I did not get a 
shot at them. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Funny thing was that he had one B-1 that we carried 
to a number of meets and never seemed to sell. Like you, I was a boy and didn't 
have the scratch to pick it up.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Wish I had. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks a bunch for the note
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10597
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Vince Waterman
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                       Hi Jim W, W Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
I have no idea for sure if the Trackside Specialties Electrics I have were from 
the personal collection of Vince Waterman. The engines I have sent pictures 
of were all assembled and painted (very professional job I think) with lots 
of little detail like marker lights and such added.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           Jim 
W.   You seem to think these were from your dad's personal collection. 
You would know better then anyone.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          I bought these 
engines from a collector friend in Lancaster PA years ago when he was selling 
everything he had. I mean everything since he had a 12' x 12' room , packed 
top to bottom, of HO items he was selling off. I bought quit a few from 
him. They were new and vintage items and lots of "fancy" brass. This man was 
another of those phantom collectors who knew a lot but wasn't involved with any 
publications. He had over 50 years experience tied into his collection. Just 
another of my many train collector friends who had lots of information and 
passed it on to me. While their are many of these friends out there I could pick 
5 with over 50 years of HO  experience behind them and add to them 2 
who have passed on with the same amount of experience.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         Pictures are
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        1 & 
2       Front and back of TS  B-1 
Rat
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        3 & 
4       TS  O-1c
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        5 & 
6       TS  P-5a
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim W 
.    What do you think. Any special hidden identification on them 
???
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10598
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 5/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 5/13/2009 1:14:45 PM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Pictures are
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    5 & 6 TS P-5a
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    -----------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    That's not a P-5 or P-5a; that's a one-of-a-kind R-1, the only 4-6-4 on the Pennsy roster.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10599
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm not a train expert but I 
think the R-1 was a 4-8-4 . This is a 4-6-4 and from everything I know a P-5a. I 
also have an IMP that is a P-5 Modified (streamlined)  4-6-4.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:20 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside 
  Specialties Electrics
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 5/13/2009 1:14:45 PM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Pictures are
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    5 & 6 TS P-5a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    That's not a P-5 or P-5a; that's a one-of-a-kind R-1, the only 4-6-4 on 
  the Pennsy roster.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10600
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 5/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Passenger SL-15
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    You now have a folder and the copy is now
in it.  
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 12:49
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson
Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck, I'll get that out to you in tomorrow's mail.
Thanks again for the help in posting it. Looks like Jim is looking forward to
seeing it too; I'm sending him a copy also. Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > I can't wait to see the assembly instructions and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> photo for the Sampson SL-15 power car. I've always wanted one for my
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> collection but this will fill in blanks about this true vintage, hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> find item.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10601
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: GB&W #145 (nee #60)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Holy shmokes! Really nice work, John. Did you mill out a new axle slot in the frame to get the offset spacing?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10602
						From: Chris B
						Date: 5/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 6:08:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics

                                                                                                                                                                                    









    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm not a train expert but I 
think the R-1 was a 4-8-4 . This is a 4-6-4 and from everything I know a P-5a. I 
also have an IMP that is a P-5 Modified (streamlined)  4-6-4.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:20 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside 
  Specialties Electrics
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 5/13/2009 1:14:45 PM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Pictures are
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    5 & 6 TS P-5a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------ -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    That's not a P-5 or P-5a; that's a one-of-a-kind R-1, the only 4-6-4 on 
  the Pennsy roster.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10603
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 5/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: GB&W #145 (nee #60)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    No. The frame is pieced together. The
front section is from the 0-4-0 Shifter and the rear also. The center was cut
from a 2-6-2 (Big Six 0-6-0 would work as well). The front has to be a shifter
piece in order to have the rear support for both the crosshead guides and the
valve gear hanger in the correct position. A 0-6-0 or 2-6-2 won’t work.
Even the rear two axles are spaced farther apart than the 0-6-0 as it comes.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    I am doing this for two reasons; the first
obviously to get a model of a GBW 0-6-0. The second is to show what can be done
using inexpensive diecast models and a basic set of tools and skills. I haven’t
a mill or lathe and, although I can do okay solder work, I am not doing any
soldering on this project.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    My tools include the early Dremel drill
press, Dremel tools, taps, dies basic tools like screwdrivers and small socket
wrenches for 00-90, 0-80, 2-72 & 2-56 screws, and assortment of files and a
decent metal 4’ vise. The vise I am using is a cross-slide type but that
is only because I have no idea which box my 4” drill press vise is packed
in. Probably my most exotic tools are a good vernier caliper (purchased back in
1963 when dial calipers were way expensive) and a General spring-loaded center pooch.
Oh yes, I forgot to mention my razor saw and its aluminum miter box. Actually I
have a NWSL quarter (which I haven’t needed here) and gear puller, which
I did use to properly gauge two driver sets that were a tad on the tight side.
Which reminds me of my NMRA standards gauge that should be in every model rails
tool kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 19:12
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: GB&W
#145 (nee #60)
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    Holy shmokes! Really nice work, John. Did you mill out a new axle slot
in the frame to get the offset spacing?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10604
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Varney Little Joe questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    OK:  got my first ever Little Joe.  Never seen one before, (and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
...that covers half a century ! ....),    Metal shell/boiler.  No 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
crosshead guides; stamped crosshead.  Haven't tried to power engine 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
up ... need to figure if it's 6 or 12 V.  I'll figure a way to begin 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
powering with 6V first.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm pretty impressed with this locomotive.  Besides my original 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Varney Casey Jones, I, "grew up," on early, cheap Mantua.  (i.e. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Shifter and Booster)  Quite a difference between the Booster and the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Little Joe/Dockside.  Proportions and, "believe-ability," are better 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with the Dockside.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I just viewed the GREAT photos on this List's archive.  Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
How do I date this Little Joe?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mine has holes for crosshead guides and it has piston valve 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
cylinders.  Considering the crosshead guide holes, should it have the guides?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I see a lot of IHC and Life Like Docksides on ebay that have plastic 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
shells.  I can't seem to get interested in them.  When do all of you 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
consider quality/collectability, "vintage interests," ending in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the  various production lives of Docksides?  Or has it ended?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I need to find one with crosshead guides and valve gear.  I'm not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
good enough yet to sort out the versions that come up for sale.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10605
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 5/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Little Joe questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Easiest way to get a Varney w/crosshead
guides and valve would be to get a valve gear kit from Bowser, part #460. It
appears to be the same as the Central Valley 
kit that was a popular addition to the old Varney’s.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Finding a metal Varney with valve gear ain’t
easy. Not a bunch show up for sale and them that do usually cast a bit.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009
23:31
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Little
Joe questions
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    OK: got my first ever Little Joe. Never seen one before, (and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
...that covers half a century ! ....), Metal shell/boiler. No 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
crosshead guides; stamped crosshead. Haven't tried to power engine 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
up ... need to figure if it's 6 or 12 V. I'll figure a way to begin 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
powering with 6V first.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm pretty impressed with this locomotive. Besides my original 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Varney Casey Jones, I, "grew up," on early, cheap
 Mantua . (i.e. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Shifter and Booster) Quite a difference between the Booster and the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Little Joe/Dockside. Proportions and, "believe-ability, " are
better 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with the Dockside.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I just viewed the GREAT photos on this List's archive. Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
How do I date this Little Joe?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mine has holes for crosshead guides and it has piston valve 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
cylinders. Considering the crosshead guide holes, should it have the guides?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I see a lot of IHC and Life Like Docksides on ebay that have plastic 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
shells. I can't seem to get interested in them. When do all of you 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
consider quality/collectabil ity, "vintage interests," ending in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the various production lives of Docksides? Or has it ended?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I need to find one with crosshead guides and valve gear. I'm not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
good enough yet to sort out the versions that come up for sale.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10606
						From: Jay Wanczyk
						Date: 5/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Little Joe questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dennis T. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Like you, the little locomotive that Gordon Varney once advertised as "The Nocturnal Little Beast" came into my collection later in life, only a few years ago. One thing you will discover, is that if you like it now, it will grow on you even more in the future! Somehow I had skipped owning one when starting out in HO in the early 1960's, and not because the body was by then, molded in styrene. It was simply that one of my uncles worked for a Brooklyn, NY waterfront railroad, the Brooklyn District Eastern Terminal (B.E.D.T) and they used a fleet of 0-6-0's into the early 1960's. The square-tanked Mantua/Tyco "Little Six," an accurate model of two of their locomotives built by Porter, so that's what I bought and lettered for my switcher.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Varney sure hit with all notes running in 1942 with the "Docksider" AKA "Little Joe" - an accurate B&O model that still can hold its own in terms of both overall proportions and details. Plus, they ran well, so well as to be produced in the hundreds of thousands and be a first locomotive for many new model railroaders over several decades. So in a collection, they represent not rarity or exclusivity, (except for the 6 V.), but are simply examples of what likely was the most popular HO scale locomotive ever manufactured.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    No small role for "Little Joe"!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    What versions are collectible? It depends on the collector. I tend to take a broad vision of our Vintage HO hobby. To me any Varney Docksider is collectible, beginning with the scarce early 1940's 6 volt version that is well represented in a photo album here. The diecast 12 volt versions are also highly desirable, and having at least one in original state and one with Central Valley vale gear is achievable. How about another with the optional Kemtron brass "Cab-Foward" casting that many modelers bought as an accessory add-on in the 1950’s? (I believe still available from Precision Scale). Those Varney boxes with the large nighttime photo of the prototype in operation on top are a nice extra to have, too. While many of us would stop with the diecast metal versions, others will continue following the interesting later production examples.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    As to the plastic versions, there were two main versions by Varney. The early "high headlight" version is much more difficult to find. As a scale model you would be hard pressed to tell the difference if both it and a diecast metal one were detailed and painted, set side by side.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    A second plastic version was also issued by Varney, the difference being that the headlight was lowered for ease in assembly. In the mid 1960's, Varney produced them in six wild colors including Armor Yellow Union Pacific, Central Green NY Central (see attached photos). That later era seems to be when the quality of die castings was most susceptible to Zamac rot or pest, and one will be hard pressed to find "unmolested" examples in new condition. While not everyone’s cup of tea, the high prices they fetch on eBay is an indication of their collectibility. The Varney collector might stop there, but to me, at least one Bowser edition, with the latest can motor and new gearbox would complete the collection, stretching over 65 years production.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Rivarossi keyed into the popularity of the Docksider in the late 1940’s, but one might be hard pressed to call their first a scale model, as the plastic (Bakelite?) body was produced in 4mm. scale with an HO gauged chassis, in other words, built to British HO standards. Alexandro Rossi noted in an interview that they followed the motor design of the successful British Trix Twin line with adjustable "sidesaddle" brushes before developing their own well respected ball bearing motors. Polk’s in New York, who then represented Rivarossi in the United States, imported many of and sold them for $9.95 in the late 1940’s, less than Varney at that time. I have one of these fascinating very early Rivarossi Docksiders, and will post photos when I am able.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Much later, in the 1960’s Rivarossi began manufacturing both deluxe and economy B&O Docksiders. I like how Rivarossi designers followed Gordon Varney’s lead in using their own company initials, "RR," on the smokebox-side builder plates in place of the "V" for Varney. As if paying a bit of silent homage to the original master. As to Like-Like’s derivative "Little Joe" produced in Pacific Rim countries, I’m sure Sol Kramer of Varney/Lifelike had the Asian engineers use the Varney designed edition as a guide, but made more inexpensively, but as I don’t have an example yet, can not offer any details on them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    But the final word, and the nice part of this hobby is that you can develop your collection any way you want. I started out with just wanting the diecast versions, but those later plastic-bodied editions kept gravitating to me in lots, from a uncle, etc. After looking them over, I thought "Why not?" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    See, I said those "Little Joes" will grow on you.  And they don’t take much space, either!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Dennis Thompson <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 12:31:02 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Little Joe questions

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    OK: got my first ever Little Joe. Never seen one before, (and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    ...that covers half a century ! ....), Metal shell/boiler. No 
                                                                                                                                                                                    crosshead guides; stamped crosshead. Haven't tried to power engine 
                                                                                                                                                                                    up ... need to figure if it's 6 or 12 V. I'll figure a way to begin 
                                                                                                                                                                                    powering with 6V first.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm pretty impressed with this locomotive. Besides my original 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Varney Casey Jones, I, "grew up," on early, cheap Mantua. (i.e. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Shifter and Booster) Quite a difference between the Booster and the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Little Joe/Dockside. Proportions and, "believe-ability, " are better 
                                                                                                                                                                                    with the Dockside.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I just viewed the GREAT photos on this List's archive. Thanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                    How do I date this Little Joe?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Mine has holes for crosshead guides and it has piston valve 
                                                                                                                                                                                    cylinders. Considering the crosshead guide holes, should it have the guides?

                                                                                                                                                                                    I see a lot of IHC and Life Like Docksides on ebay that have plastic 
                                                                                                                                                                                    shells. I can't seem to
 get interested in them. When do all of you 
                                                                                                                                                                                    consider quality/collectabil ity, "vintage interests," ending in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    the various production lives of Docksides? Or has it ended?

                                                                                                                                                                                    I need to find one with crosshead guides and valve gear. I'm not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    good enough yet to sort out the versions that come up for sale.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dennis 


                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10607
						From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
						Date: 5/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO 
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
group.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  File        : /V List Pacific HO cars.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Description : List of Pacific HO cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Pacific%20HO%20cars.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10608
						From: Ron Plyler
						Date: 5/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Varney NW-2 Parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Anyone out there have a 2064 universal drive shaft that fits the Varney NW-2.  This is the little coupling that fits between the trucks.  This is the die cast trucks and not the later plastic ones.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10609
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Sampson Power Car Plans
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray F W 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
The plans for the Sampson Power Car came today. Want to thank you for taking the 
time to make a copy and sending them to me. Appreciate this very 
much.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10610
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Fantasy" Dockside
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W, Dennis , All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                Since 
Jay W mentioned the Kemtron Cab Forward on the Varney Dockside I want to show 
you how far it can go. This is a Varney 4-4-4 Cab Forward Dockside with a wooden 
tender. (Since it is a "fantasy" HO engine it's decaled for the 
Pennsy.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              Jay W, nice 
write up on the Varney and Rivarossi Docksides also.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10611
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 5/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                    This is my Varney 0-6-0 lil Joe with the early rear truck single brush..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Yeah, I said 0-6-0...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10612
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 5/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 5/14/2009 1:54:20 PM EDT Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm not a train expert but I think the R-1 was a 4-8-4 .
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ---------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    You're right; I stand corrected.  Fingers in motion before brain in gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10613
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 5/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney NW-2 Parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ron,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Northwest Short Line makes a nice universal coupling set that is truly universal, I've used it in many of my older AHM steamers to get them running again............:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Ron Plyler <ron_tallyho@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 11:41:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Varney NW-2 Parts

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Anyone out there have a 2064 universal drive shaft that fits the Varney NW-2. This is the little coupling that fits between the trucks. This is the die cast trucks and not the later plastic ones.


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10614
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 5/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    For what it's worth - that same Kemtron Cab Forward
                                                                                                                                                                                    
casting also fits perfectly on the Rivarossi 0-4-0.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I put one on my Rivarossi in 1960.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W, Dennis , All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Since Jay W mentioned the Kemtron Cab Forward on the Varney Dockside I want to show you how far it can go. This is a Varney 4-4-4 Cab Forward Dockside with a wooden tender. (Since it is a "fantasy" HO engine it's decaled for the Pennsy.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           Jay W, nice write up on the Varney and Rivarossi Docksides also.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10615
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 5/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    YEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOW - THAT is one very interesting
                                                                                                                                                                                    
item.  Do you have any idea when that was offered?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Those drivers are larger than what were on the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
0-4-0.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> This is my Varney 0-6-0 lil Joe with the early rear truck single brush..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yeah, I said 0-6-0...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10616
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 5/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I LIKE IT!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Charlie W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "jim heckard" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: lennard@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Fantasy" Dockside [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 13:44:16 -0400

                                                                                                                                                                                    


 



                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W, Dennis , All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                Since Jay W mentioned the Kemtron Cab Forward on the Varney Dockside I want to show you how far it can go. This is a Varney 4-4-4 Cab Forward Dockside with a wooden tender. (Since it is a "fantasy" HO engine it's decaled for the Pennsy.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                              Jay W, nice write up on the Varney and Rivarossi Docksides also.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

-- 

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Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10617
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 5/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nice
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "Sean Naylor" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fantasy" Dockside [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 11:01:17 -0700 (PDT)

                                                                                                                                                                                    





                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    This is my Varney 0-6-0 lil Joe with the early rear truck single brush..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Yeah, I said 0-6-0...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

-- 

                                                                                                                                                                                     Be Yourself @ mail.com!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10618
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 5/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    This is my first time attaching pictures to this group, so if they don't show, let me know

                                                                                                                                                                                    Anyway, attached are three pictures of my Knapp/Bowser/Whatever-it-is Mountain. Note the wheels and the valve gear. I am aware the pilot deck is NOT original, it is a Varney part and even has Varney stamped underneath.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Any clue about this? Like I say, it runs well, so I am happy, but knowing it's excact make and such would just make me happier.

                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Sun, 5/10/09, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:13 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                    






    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim,  Found your attachment, but as it stated as it was downloading, that it was about to take about 11 or 12 minutes, I decided to go to "attachments" on the Group Page as Don suggested; it opened right away.  Pics look good, all the needed detail is easily seen.  Nice examples, matches what I have here; I see no difference in the drive train of Knapps or Bowser either.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        Dennis, W Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       I'm sending some pictures to try to answer some questions posed about the differences between the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the later version put out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to remember that when one company buys out anothers products there can be a "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if this is the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I write is fact or possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they didn't last long. There have been no plans or assembly sheets that have come forward. Most of my information has been exchanged with members from other groups and close train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only printed word I can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with their "producers of miniature motors since 1890'"motto) , MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 1939 (which seems
 to be a final ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but will draw parts of it as it pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Knapp Electric, Inc. of  739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana  was mainly a producer of electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I pointed out in a previous post.  Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " The engine superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always called it brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy sheet BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass)  Statement "  The drivers and tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of BRASS.  Linen laminated Celeron is used for insulation".  Statement " The Knapp motor uses Alnico permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      MR Oct 1938 statement " Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor operates from transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone holding the armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     MR Jan 1939  from Knapp "A Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all new items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries of their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting problem). Later it claims all the problems were corrected which in reality seems not to be true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph about their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939 from Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp engine and a guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it return it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the Bowser Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Hope this answers some of the questions. Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The drivers were solid brass and insulated at the hub which caused shorts through the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see both types on the last picture. Knapp on top , Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      I will relate here how different people have different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had Knapp cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal had a reddish tinge  and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges (Everything I know said all drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his information came from. He said he would share after the sale. the only thing he did mention was the previous owner told him (and gave his name). He never followed up with more plus pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     To W Ray W. Check out the pictures as I see no difference in the design of the drive train from Knapp to Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    Any discussion on different opinions welcome. Again the small  amount of paper work and the engines limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous sources and collectors who I will believe till further proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                          Hope no mistakes.                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10619
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 5/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Forgot to add:

                                                                                                                                                                                    The Tender is DEFINATLY a Bowser, it new production to replace the cast tender that had that awful rigid talgo coupler. Also note the loop coupler on the back of it! Of course, look at the train on my layout behind- they run Mantua loops too!

                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Thu, 5/14/09, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Thursday, May 14, 2009, 7:18 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    






    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    This is my first time attaching pictures to this group, so if they don't show, let me know

                                                                                                                                                                                    Anyway, attached are three pictures of my Knapp/Bowser/ Whatever- it-is Mountain. Note the wheels and the valve gear. I am aware the pilot deck is NOT original, it is a Varney part and even has Varney stamped underneath.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Any clue about this? Like I say, it runs well, so I am happy, but knowing it's excact make and such would just make me happier.

                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- On Sun, 5/10/09, erieberk <erieberk@wmconnect. com> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: erieberk
 <erieberk@wmconnect. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:13 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                    






    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim,  Found your attachment, but as it stated as it was downloading, that it was about to take about 11 or 12 minutes, I decided to go to "attachments" on the Group Page as Don suggested; it opened right away.  Pics look good, all the needed detail is easily seen.  Nice examples, matches what I have here; I see no difference in the drive train of Knapps or Bowser either.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        Dennis, W Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       I'm sending some pictures to try to answer some questions posed about the differences between the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the later version put out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to remember that when one company buys out anothers products there can be a "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if this is the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I write is fact or possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they didn't last long. There have been no plans or assembly sheets that have come forward. Most of my information has been exchanged with members from other groups and close train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only printed word I can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with their "producers of miniature motors since 1890'"motto) , MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 1939 (which seems
 to be a final ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but will draw parts of it as it pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Knapp Electric, Inc. of  739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana  was mainly a producer of electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I pointed out in a previous post.  Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " The engine superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always called it brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy sheet BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass)  Statement "  The drivers and tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of BRASS.  Linen laminated Celeron is used for insulation".  Statement " The Knapp motor uses Alnico permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      MR Oct 1938 statement " Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor operates from transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone holding the armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     MR Jan 1939  from Knapp "A Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all new items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries of their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting problem). Later it claims all the problems were corrected which in reality seems not to be true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph about their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939 from Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp engine and a guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it return it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the Bowser Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Hope this answers some of the questions. Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The drivers were solid brass and insulated at the hub which caused shorts through the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see both types on the last picture. Knapp on top , Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      I will relate here how different people have different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had Knapp cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal had a reddish tinge  and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges (Everything I know said all drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his information came from. He said he would share after the sale. the only thing he did mention was the previous owner told him (and gave his name). He never followed up with more plus pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     To W Ray W. Check out the pictures as I see no difference in the design of the drive train from Knapp to Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    Any discussion on different opinions welcome. Again the small  amount of paper work and the engines limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous sources and collectors who I will believe till further proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                          Hope no mistakes.                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10620
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Knapp/Bowser ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Steven N,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
The three pictures came in great. Good close ups.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        The body sure looks like either 
Knapp or Bowser as they were basically the same thing. Only thing I know 
different on the Knapp body was the stanchions were cast right on the 
body and you soldered or peened the hand rail on. (don't know if all were this 
way). Later Bowser must have taken them off to drill holes for stanchions. That 
is one little difference I hadn't seen mentioned. The trailing truck is the 
right one for both the Knapp or Bowser. I would have to check on the lead truck. 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        I think you are dealing with 
handmade rods and valve gear. The main rod looks Varney due to it's shape. The 
side rod is one piece "hand made". (The Knapp side rod was also one piece of 
stamped metal but Bowser's was cast pieces.) Eccentrics (return cranks) look 
hand made also. I don't know the Drivers off hand. Somebody out there will 
probably recognize them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      I hope that helps a little. Maybe others 
have different thoughts. If the engine runs good and you are happy with it 
ENJOY.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10621
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim,  Yes, the PRR P5a (Modified, or not) was a 4-C-4 (4-6-4), the lone PRR R1 was a 4-D-4 (4-8-4).  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ralph B,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     I'm not a train expert but I think the R-1 was a 4-8-4 . This is a 4-6-4 and from everything I know a P-5a. I also have an IMP that is a P-5 Modified (streamlined)  4-6-4.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                 Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: Alpvalsys@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:20 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   In a message dated 5/13/2009 1:14:45 PM EDT, Jim H wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Pictures are
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   5 & 6 TS P-5a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   -----------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Jim, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   That's not a P-5 or P-5a; that's a one-of-a-kind R-1, the only 4-6-4 on the Pennsy roster.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after instant savings!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10622
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Passenger SL-15
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck,  WOW, my very own folder!  Alright -- THANKS a lot for loading my Sampson Power Car plans up there.  Didn't know where to look first, so I went to the Files -- but then I saw it in the Photos section.  Incidentally, is there a way that my name's spelling could be corrected, or replaced with the correct spelling?  Not that I don't appeciate what you did, but it's alway nice to have one's name spelled right, if it's not too much of a problem.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks again,  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You now have a folder and the copy is now in it.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 12:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Chuck, I'll get that out to you in tomorrow's mail. Thanks again for the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> help in posting it. Looks like Jim is looking forward to seeing it too; I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> sending him a copy also. Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I can't wait to see the assembly instructions and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > photo for the Sampson SL-15 power car. I've always wanted one for my
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > collection but this will fill in blanks about this true vintage, hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > find item.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10623
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: GB&W #145 (nee #60)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  
  

 
Good message John.  When I started in HO I could not afford good
locomotives.  I bought wrecked and junk locos to rebuild into what I
wanted.  I used the same methods that you use with basic hand tools
only.  I did the same type of work with die cast and with plastic.  I
know it came to called kit bashing but I found a lot of satisfaction
with what I accomplished.  Keep up the good work and the encouraging
messages.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson,
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    No. The
frame is pieced together. The
front section is from the 0-4-0 Shifter and the rear also. The center
was cut
from a 2-6-2 (Big Six 0-6-0 would work as well). The front has to be a
shifter
piece in order to have the rear support for both the crosshead guides
and the
valve gear hanger in the correct position. A 0-6-0 or 2-6-2 won’t work.
Even the rear two axles are spaced farther apart than the 0-6-0 as it
comes.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I am doing
this for two reasons; the first
obviously to get a model of a GBW 0-6-0. The second is to show what can
be done
using inexpensive diecast models and a basic set of tools and skills. I
haven’t
a mill or lathe and, although I can do okay solder work, I am not doing
any
soldering on this project.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    My tools
include the early Dremel drill
press, Dremel tools, taps, dies basic tools like screwdrivers and small
socket
wrenches for 00-90, 0-80, 2-72 & 2-56 screws, and assortment of
files and a
decent metal 4’ vise. The vise I am using is a cross-slide type but
that
is only because I have no idea which box my 4” drill press vise is
packed
in. Probably my most exotic tools are a good vernier caliper (purchased
back in
1963 when dial calipers were way expensive) and a General spring-loaded
center pooch.
Oh yes, I forgot to mention my razor saw and its aluminum miter box.
Actually I
have a NWSL quarter (which I haven’t needed here) and gear puller,
which
I did use to properly gauge two driver sets that were a tad on the
tight side.
Which reminds me of my NMRA standards gauge that should be in every
model rails
tool kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Editor, Green Bay & Western
Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Green Bay & Western
Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
[mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Sent: Tuesday, May 12,
2009 19:12
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Subject: [vintageHO]
Re: GB&W
#145 (nee #60)
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Holy shmokes! Really nice work, John. Did you
mill out a new axle slot
in the frame to get the offset spacing?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                     
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10624
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Joe,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I think the drivers are original, but it has been a while since i have looked at it. The interesting thing is.. It is an original Varney chassis that looks to have had the original axle slots filled and new ones machined in, with brass axle bearings inserted. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    It is a very nice custom job that I wish I could take credit for.  Not for sale, since I am certain it is a one-of-a-kind.. especially at todays prices. For the little I paid for it, I am very eager to keep it for a while. The only thing i have done with it is throw on the (green) steam chests which had the zimax rot. It would be tragic if the rest of it suffered from that.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: oljoeoh <oljoe@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 4:27:58 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fantasy" Dockside

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    YEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOW - THAT is one very interesting
                                                                                                                                                                                    item. Do you have any idea when that was offered?
                                                                                                                                                                                    Those drivers are larger than what were on the
                                                                                                                                                                                    0-4-0.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Joe O'Loughlin

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > This is my Varney 0-6-0 lil Joe with the early rear truck single brush..
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Yeah, I said 0-6-0...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    >


                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10625
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck,  While the group was on this discussion, I checked out the spread sheet we did on this, finding some omissions.  I've since made the time to check into what was missing, so with your help, maybe you'd like to up-load them when you get a chance.  I don't think that leaves very many missing car numbers at all, although I can't supply those few at this time as my collection of them is not quite complete.  Please add the following cars and/or car numbers:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Walthers Early Production --
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Standard Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-S126 -- C&NW 11552
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Truss Rod Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-S123 -- AT&SF 1157
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Bay Window Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-S116 -- SP 239 Box Car Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Drovers Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-S107 -- MP 1105
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
40' Double Door Auto Box Car:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-S303 -- GN 3506 Caboose Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
50' Double Door Auto Box Car:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-S356 -- SP 58211
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
40' Ice Bunker Reefer:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-S419 -- C&NW 2657
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
40' Truss Rod Reefer:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-S701 -- GN 62763 Yellow
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-S703 CS (Colorado Southern) 30052 Orange
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Walthers Early (Later) Production:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Standard Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-124 -- CB&Q 14112 B/C Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-128 -- MILW 823 Reefer Yellow
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Bay Window Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-122 -- MILW 0255 Silver
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Drover Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-130 -- AT&SF 985 B/C Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
40' Truss Rod Box Car:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-902 -- NP 38673 B/C Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Maintenance of Way:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
(Chuck, All cars used the same numbers as the Walthers Early production, all cars are Reefer Gray) --
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-801  -- MW430
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-802  -- MW809
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-803  -- MW525
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-804  -- MW383
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-805  -- MW720
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-806  --  MW97
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks Chuck, that's all I have up to this point.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Jay,  I've also found five versions of the Silver Streak Sante Fe reefers listed in the 1950 Model R.R. Equipment Corp.'s catalog, even though only one Sante Fe version is listed in their 1953 catalog.  As Carmen ("Ma") Webster has been known to be wrong more than once, I question whether there actually were 5 versions of the Sante Fe reefer produced by Silver Streak.  Would you have anything else besides Webster's catalog to verify this?  I will admit, it's an odd coincidence that she lists FOUR of the versions which Walthers introduced in 1978 as NEW, but then these were all prototypically named AT&SF (SFRD) reefer versions so to use any other names would have been blatently wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The only Silver Streak (Pacific H0 - Silver Streak) Sante Fe refrigerator car kit that George Menzies advertised in Walthers' catalogs was the Kit # S410 - "Chief (West)" - #24332, which was the same version (and same sole Silver Streak catalog number) that Walthers advertised for Silver Streak before Menzies bought them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> After buying Pacific H0 - Silver Streak from Menzies in 1972, Walthers brought out the Sante Fe "Chief" - #24082 under the same catalog number S410, but with their prefix (929) number for that line of kits.  In 1978, Walthers first advertised the Sante Fe "Grand Canyon" - #26079 - under the same #(929)-410 kit number.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> All other "New" Walthers Silver Streak Sante Fe Reefers that were first introduced in 1978 had different catalog numbers, other than the one (#410) first used by original Silver Streak.  These were (all with prefix 929): 422 - "Chief (West)" #25963, 423 - "Super Chief" #26154, 424 - "El Capitan" #26133, 425 - "Scout" #26048, 426 - "Texas Chief" #26236, 427 - "San Francisco Chief" #26288.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Walthers did use two road numbers on some (many?) of their Silver Streak cars.  This was no exception on at least some of the Sante Fe reefers, when they added the "Super Chief" number #24375 in late production before selling the line of kits to Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff R.R.  All of these car numbers are in my collection as original kits (in original boxes).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> No need to post a list of Silver Streak models by manufacturing era, as that has already been done (I made a Silver Streak listing back in January 2008, which Chuck Higdon made into a spread sheet and filed).  It does need to be tweeked, as I noticed a couple of errors, and some car numbers were inadvertently omitted in the transition, but that's no problem to straighten out (I just noticed it now, when going back to it).  I did not go into Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff RR as I don't think anyone actually collects that line.  I could easily add a complete listing of that manufacturer's Silver Streak kits, but not being a collector of them, I don't have a single one, so can't even begin to include the car numbers.  The Y.O.H.N.P catalog numbers for the Sante Fe reefers include: #443 Grand Canyon, #444 Chief (West), #445 Super Chief, #446 El Capitan, #447 Scout, #448 Texas Chief and #449 San Francisco Chief.  Raymond Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Don D., Russ S,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Talk about research for the obscure information!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I found reference this evening that Silver Streak produced at least five
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > versions of the Santa Fe reefers 30+ years before Walthers; They are
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > individually listed on page 39 of the Model Railroad Equipment Corp.'s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 1950 catalog, but as is typical of Webster's Catalogs, no manufacturer's
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > item number is given and there are no illustrations to record car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > numbers from. I am going to theorize that the last two of the seven
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > models that Walthers produced in the 1980's were also reintroduced,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > based on earlier Silver Streak models and will watch for a listing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The five cars listed in 1950 were: Chief (West), El Capitan, Grand
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Canyon, Scout and Super Chief, which correspond to five of the seven
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > later editions by Walthers (both manufacturers had the opposite sides,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > per prototype, with the identical "...all the way" slogan plus route
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > map;  the remaining two had the slogan, but no route map).  And Ye Olde
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Huff 'n Puff catalogs all seven cars as still in production today.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Again, different stock numbers and we do not yet know if they changed the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > road numbers from Walthers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Both the 1949 original Silver Streak and later True-Scale Silver Streak
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > instructions on HOseeker note that the ends were first made of a pressed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > composition material they called "comprestic" ends (with no integral
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > fascia).  So it seems that is a good identification between original and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Walther's editions, as Don noted that the Walters catalog stated that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > their models had Styrene - simulated wood sheathed ends with facia and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > pre-drilled for grab irons.  And Don noted different road numbers for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Walthers, perhaps an ATSF model specialist has a list. But absent
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > orignal boxes and a list of road nembers, end material is a key to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > telling between the two.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > If anyone is interested, I can begin to keep and post a list of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > models by manufacturing era: A) Silver Streak original, B) Walthers and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > C) Huff Puff, by manufacturer's catalog numbers and road numbers.  Just
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > let me know what you have when you think of it or find them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Amazing to realize that the same basic Silver Streak reefer kits, with
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > few changes, have been in production for 60 years, 1949-2009!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > And  actually, finding all seven, no matter which firm manufactured them
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > would be neat to run as a block on the layout, and in the end that is
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > what it is all about.  Whew!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > However the photo on the YOHP sight is actually of kit no. 445. :-(
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > (On
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Walthers' website, the same error exists although they don't vcarry it
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > anymore.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > My comment about the plastic ends is from the 1984 Walthers' book, not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > sure
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > when they changed from die-cast to plastic.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I'm not sure, but every picture I've seen of pre-Walthers production
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > carries
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > a different car number.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > don.dellmann@
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > From: "the_plainsman" the_plainsman@
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 11:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Hi Russ S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Since no one else has weighed in all evening, and would not want you
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > lose sleep over it (LOL), believe it to be Silver Streak. Besides
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > graphics of both sides matching, if you look closely at the lower
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > edge of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > the sides, you should be able to detect they are made from a thin
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > plywood
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > (3 ply). Even in the Walthers era, (I'm looking at 1982 catalog
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > here, p.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > 73) they, SS, had 7 different sets of sides for AT&SF. Yours would
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Walthers # 929-422 "Chief West"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Yours might also date from before Silver Streak was owned by
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Walthers, or
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > afterward by its current owner YOHP, who still ofers the car kit in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > current production #444:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > http://www.yeoldehuffnpuff.com/sstreakkits.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Some of today's kits may have soft white metal detail castings,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > while
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > during the original and Walthers days, castings were of hard diecast
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > Zamac. Someone more familiar with them can date yours more
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > accurately
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > than I, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > While your example looks to be complete, for anyone looking for new
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > replacement detail parts, Ye Old Huff n' Puff still sells them
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > direct as
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > well as later editions of many Main Line (including poultry cars!)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > AC/L-W kits too.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel rshiel01@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> H'lo all! This reefer arrived with a couple of Mainline/Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > metal
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> cars this week. I haven't been able to track it down...ID help
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > would be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> appreciated! Apologies for poor images...camera operator still
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > dealing
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> with too-smart camera...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> Santa Fe ice reefer #25963 BLT 12-29 WC 5-49 Ship Sante Fe all the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > way
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> one side, The Chief famous daily streamliner West on the other.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Looks
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> like silk-screened wooden sides, diecast ends, cemented to a wooden
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> carcass, diecast centre sill, full brake rigging, Kadee trucks and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> couplers. 'Rr11' is printed on the lower RHS...I thought maybe
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > early
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> Varney, but couldn't find it in the Greenberg book.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> Thanks in anticipation!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> Russ
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> The new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7: Faster, Safer,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > >> Easier.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10626
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Power Car Plans
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim,  You're most welcome, glad you liked the plans.  I see Chuck H. has put them in the Photos section, so at least anyone interested in them can get them.  I did yours on glossy paper as I think that's best for actual photos -- hope the ink finally dried; looks like it takes longer on that paper as I noticed I slightly smudged one of the words as I folded it.  Best,  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>              The plans for the Sampson Power Car came today. Want to thank you for taking the time to make a copy and sending them to me. Appreciate this very much.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10627
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve,  Great job with attaching those pics.  The last two are especially helpful in seeing that detail of parts included.  The first shot is easily seen to be a Knapp or Bowser Mountain engine, although from here I might even say the tender could be a Varney.  My older monitor does not show as clear pictures as does a flat screen, and since this is not a close up, I'm not seeing it all that well.  As Jim H said though, the main rods are definitely Varney, in particular # 1812 used primarily with Alligator crossheads and 72" drivers.  The one-piece side rods are obviously hand made, although whoever did them had done a fine job as far as distancing the holes with precision to enable it to run as well as it does.  This is not an easy job, as all the holes need to be spaced the same exact distance as the driver axles are spaced from each other to prevent binding.  You could remove and file them to make them have a better appearance if you'd like, but be happy that it runs so well.  I can't see the hand rail stanchions that close to get a more defined take on this engine though, but I would go with Jim's observations of it.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> This is my first time attaching pictures to this group, so if they don't show, let me know
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Anyway, attached are three pictures of my Knapp/Bowser/Whatever-it-is Mountain. Note the wheels and the valve gear. I am aware the pilot deck is NOT original, it is a Varney part and even has Varney stamped underneath.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Any clue about this? Like I say, it runs well, so I am happy, but knowing it's excact make and such would just make me happier.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- On Sun, 5/10/09, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:13 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Hi Jim,  Found your attachment, but as it stated as it was downloading, that it was about to take about 11 or 12 minutes, I decided to go to "attachments" on the Group Page as Don suggested; it opened right away.  Pics look good, all the needed detail is easily seen.  Nice examples, matches what I have here; I see no difference in the drive train of Knapps or Bowser either.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >        Dennis, W Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >       I'm sending some pictures to try to answer some questions posed about the differences between the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the later version put out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to remember that when one company buys out anothers products there can be a "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if this is the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I write is fact or possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they didn't last long. There have been no plans or assembly sheets that have come forward. Most of my information has been exchanged with members from other groups and close train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only printed word I can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with their "producers of miniature motors since 1890'"motto) , MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 1939 (which seems to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  be a final ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but will draw parts of it as it pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     Knapp Electric, Inc. of  739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana  was mainly a producer of electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I pointed out in a previous post.  Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " The engine superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always called it brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy sheet BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass)  Statement "  The drivers and tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of BRASS.  Linen laminated Celeron is used for insulation".  Statement " The Knapp motor uses Alnico permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >      MR Oct 1938 statement " Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor operates from transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone holding the armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     MR Jan 1939  from Knapp "A Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all new items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries of their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting problem). Later it claims all the problems were corrected which in reality seems not to be true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph about their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >    The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939 from Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp engine and a guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it return it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the Bowser Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     Hope this answers some of the questions. Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The drivers were solid brass and insulated at the hub which caused shorts through the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see both types on the last picture. Knapp on top , Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >      I will relate here how different people have different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had Knapp cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal had a reddish tinge  and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges (Everything I know said all drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his information came from. He said he would share after the sale. the only thing he did mention was the previous owner told him (and gave his name). He never followed up with more plus pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     To W Ray W. Check out the pictures as I see no difference in the design of the drive train from Knapp to Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >    Any discussion on different opinions welcome. Again the small  amount of paper work and the engines limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous sources and collectors who I will believe till further proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >                          Hope no mistakes.                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10628
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve, The tender well may be a Bowser, which should easily be determined if there is any name cast into the frame.  As I said, my monitor doesn't permit me to see it that well, and from here it has some resemblence to a Varney (but I can't even make out if it has rivets or not, that's how poor the "detail" shows up if it's not a close up).  Ray F. W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Forgot to add:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The Tender is DEFINATLY a Bowser, it new production to replace the cast tender that had that awful rigid talgo coupler. Also note the loop coupler on the back of it! Of course, look at the train on my layout behind- they run Mantua loops too!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- On Thu, 5/14/09, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Thursday, May 14, 2009, 7:18 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>               [Attachment(s) from Stephen Neubaum included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       This is my first time attaching pictures to this group, so if they don't show, let me know
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Anyway, attached are three pictures of my Knapp/Bowser/ Whatever- it-is Mountain. Note the wheels and the valve gear. I am aware the pilot deck is NOT original, it is a Varney part and even has Varney stamped underneath.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Any clue about this? Like I say, it runs well, so I am happy, but knowing it's excact make and such would just make me happier.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- On Sun, 5/10/09, erieberk <erieberk@wmconnect. com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: erieberk <erieberk@wmconnect. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:13 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Hi Jim,  Found your attachment, but as it stated as it was downloading, that it was about to take about 11 or 12 minutes, I decided to go to "attachments" on the Group Page as Don suggested; it opened right away.  Pics look good, all the needed detail is easily seen.  Nice examples, matches what I have here; I see no difference in the drive train of Knapps or Bowser either.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >        Dennis, W Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >       I'm sending some pictures to try to answer some questions posed about the differences between the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the later version put out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to remember that when one company buys out anothers products there can be a "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if this is the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I write is fact or possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they didn't last long. There have been no plans or assembly sheets that have come forward. Most of my information has been exchanged with members from other groups and close train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only printed word I can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with their "producers of miniature motors since 1890'"motto) , MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 1939 (which seems
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  to be a final ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but will draw parts of it as it pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     Knapp Electric, Inc. of  739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana  was mainly a producer of electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I pointed out in a previous post.  Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " The engine superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always called it brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy sheet BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass)  Statement "  The drivers and tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of BRASS.  Linen laminated Celeron is used for insulation".  Statement " The Knapp motor uses Alnico permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >      MR Oct 1938 statement " Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor operates from transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone holding the armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     MR Jan 1939  from Knapp "A Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all new items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries of their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting problem). Later it claims all the problems were corrected which in reality seems not to be true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph about their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >    The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939 from Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp engine and a guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it return it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the Bowser Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     Hope this answers some of the questions. Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The drivers were solid brass and insulated at the hub which caused shorts through the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see both types on the last picture. Knapp on top , Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >      I will relate here how different people have different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had Knapp cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal had a reddish tinge  and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges (Everything I know said all drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his information came from. He said he would share after the sale. the only thing he did mention was the previous owner told him (and gave his name). He never followed up with more plus pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     To W Ray W. Check out the pictures as I see no difference in the design of the drive train from Knapp to Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >    Any discussion on different opinions welcome. Again the small  amount of paper work and the engines limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous sources and collectors who I will believe till further proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >                          Hope no mistakes.                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10629
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray, I am 110% Positive the tender is a new Bowser- I bought that tender new in the box, at the hobby shop. It is the 13,000 gallon tender, that is a Pennsy Design (Though I put different trucks on it). The tender is all of one year old.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Kind of tickles me that your old monitor makes it look a bit like a Varney tender.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Oh, and Jim, I am thinking that pilot truck is an earlier Varney part, just like that pilot deck is.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Fri, 5/15/09, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 9:37 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                    






    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve, The tender well may be a Bowser, which should easily be determined if there is any name cast into the frame.  As I said, my monitor doesn't permit me to see it that well, and from here it has some resemblence to a Varney (but I can't even make out if it has rivets or not, that's how poor the "detail" shows up if it's not a close up).  Ray F. W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebu ild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Forgot to add:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The Tender is DEFINATLY a Bowser, it new production to replace the cast tender that had that awful rigid talgo coupler. Also note the loop coupler on the back of it! Of course, look at the train on my layout behind- they run Mantua loops too!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- On Thu, 5/14/09, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebu ild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebu ild@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Thursday, May 14, 2009, 7:18 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>               [Attachment( s) from Stephen Neubaum included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       This is my first time attaching pictures to this group, so if they don't show, let me know
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Anyway, attached are three pictures of my Knapp/Bowser/ Whatever- it-is Mountain. Note the wheels and the valve gear. I am aware the pilot deck is NOT original, it is a Varney part and even has Varney stamped underneath.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Any clue about this? Like I say, it runs well, so I am happy, but knowing it's excact make and such would just make me happier.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- On Sun, 5/10/09, erieberk <erieberk@wmconnect . com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: erieberk <erieberk@wmconnect . com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:13 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Hi Jim,  Found your attachment, but as it stated as it was downloading, that it was about to take about 11 or 12 minutes, I decided to go to "attachments" on the Group Page as Don suggested; it opened right away.  Pics look good, all the needed detail is easily seen.  Nice examples, matches what I have here; I see no difference in the drive train of Knapps or Bowser either.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >        Dennis, W Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >       I'm sending some pictures to try to answer some questions posed about the differences between the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the later version put out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to remember that when one company buys out anothers products there can be a "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if this is the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I write is fact or possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they didn't last long. There have been no plans or assembly sheets that have come forward. Most of my information has been exchanged with members from other groups and close train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only printed word I can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with their "producers of miniature motors since 1890'"motto) , MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 1939 (which
 seems
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  to be a final ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but will draw parts of it as it pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     Knapp Electric, Inc. of  739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana  was mainly a producer of electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I pointed out in a previous post.  Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " The engine superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always called it brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy sheet BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass)  Statement "  The drivers and tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of BRASS.  Linen laminated Celeron is used for insulation".  Statement " The Knapp motor uses Alnico permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >      MR Oct 1938 statement " Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor operates from transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone holding the armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     MR Jan 1939  from Knapp "A Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all new items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries of their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting problem). Later it claims all the problems were corrected which in reality seems not to be true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph about their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >    The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939 from Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp engine and a guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it return it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the Bowser Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     Hope this answers some of the questions. Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The drivers were solid brass and insulated at the hub which caused shorts through the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see both types on the last picture. Knapp on top , Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >      I will relate here how different people have different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had Knapp cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal had a reddish tinge  and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges (Everything I know said all drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his information came from. He said he would share after the sale. the only thing he did mention was the previous owner told him (and gave his name). He never followed up with more plus pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     To W Ray W. Check out the pictures as I see no difference in the design of the drive train from Knapp to Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >    Any discussion on different opinions welcome. Again the small  amount of paper work and the engines limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous sources and collectors who I will believe till further proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >                          Hope no mistakes.                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10630
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Bowser/Knapp Boilers
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                       Steve N, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          The pictures I am 
sending is to further help to ID a cast brass post war Bowser / Bill Bowser 
/ Redlands Ca  Mountain (Not Bowser / Lew English) from the pre war Knapp 
boiler bodies. Remember as always in the case of one company buying another 
there is usually extra stock and carry over items. I can only tell you that 
these pictures, showing 3 subtle differences, should help distinguish one 
from the other.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           Remember that 
in all the pictures the Bowser/Redlands CA Mountain is on the left, the earlier 
Knap on the right.  I had mentioned in a post yesterday that the Knapp 
boiler had the stanchions already cast on the boiler. They had a little V at the 
end were you peened over or soldered the hand rail on. This is one sure way to 
know Knapp from Bowser, which had holes drilled for stanchions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
Picture 
1                
 Shows the stanchions cast on the Knapp boiler on right
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
Picture 
2                 
Bowser dome has added detail on top, Knapp plain
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
Pictures 3 & 4         The 
stacks are different. Knapp is larger diameter with better looking outside 
detail. Bowser is smaller detail , outside a little plainer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             I don't know who 
made the original die or who did the casting. Some slight changes had to 
made. The stack detail changes has me a little confused with the earlier 
Knapp having the larger size and Bowser the smaller. To me harder to change the 
die that way then going from little to big.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10631
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Re: The "Silver Streak" list, I have a couple car numbers I don't see.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
SL&SF Box Car 213.  You list car No. 132053, mine is 126053
                                                                                                                                                                                    
GN Box Car 217, you list 73232, mine is 23732
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have a Wabash car, R/n 78943 that doesn't appear anywhere.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Photos of the three cars in question are in my "zDon_Dellmann's stuff - 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Silverstreak" photo album.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 8:50 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Chuck,  While the group was on this discussion, I checked out the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> spread sheet we did on this, finding some omissions.  I've since made the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> time to check into what was missing, so with your help, maybe you'd like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to up-load them when you get a chance.  I don't think that leaves very 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> many missing car numbers at all, although I can't supply those few at this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> time as my collection of them is not quite complete.  Please add the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> following cars and/or car numbers:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Walthers Early Production --
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Standard Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-S126 -- C&NW 11552
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Truss Rod Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-S123 -- AT&SF 1157
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Bay Window Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-S116 -- SP 239 Box Car Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Drovers Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-S107 -- MP 1105
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 40' Double Door Auto Box Car:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-S303 -- GN 3506 Caboose Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 50' Double Door Auto Box Car:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-S356 -- SP 58211
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 40' Ice Bunker Reefer:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-S419 -- C&NW 2657
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 40' Truss Rod Reefer:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-S701 -- GN 62763 Yellow
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-S703 CS (Colorado Southern) 30052 Orange
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Walthers Early (Later) Production:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Standard Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-124 -- CB&Q 14112 B/C Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-128 -- MILW 823 Reefer Yellow
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Bay Window Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-122 -- MILW 0255 Silver
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Drover Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-130 -- AT&SF 985 B/C Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 40' Truss Rod Box Car:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-902 -- NP 38673 B/C Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Maintenance of Way:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (Chuck, All cars used the same numbers as the Walthers Early production, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> all cars are Reefer Gray) --
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-801  -- MW430
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-802  -- MW809
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-803  -- MW525
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-804  -- MW383
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-805  -- MW720
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-806  --  MW97
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks Chuck, that's all I have up to this point.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10632
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve,  I had a feeling you were going to say that (LOL), although I had no way of knowing you bought it.  From what I received on my monitor though, it could have roughly resembled either a Varney or a Bowser, but I couldn't make out anything that told me it was a Pennsy design.  Not that your pic was that bad, but like I said my monitor is old, and the pic wasn't that brightly lit on it.  Actually, from what I could make of it, it could have been a Mantua tender too <g>.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray, I am 110% Positive the tender is a new Bowser- I bought that tender new in the box, at the hobby shop. It is the 13,000 gallon tender, that is a Pennsy Design (Though I put different trucks on it). The tender is all of one year old.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Kind of tickles me that your old monitor makes it look a bit like a Varney tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Oh, and Jim, I am thinking that pilot truck is an earlier Varney part, just like that pilot deck is.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- On Fri, 5/15/09, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 9:37 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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>       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Steve, The tender well may be a Bowser, which should easily be determined if there is any name cast into the frame.  As I said, my monitor doesn't permit me to see it that well, and from here it has some resemblence to a Varney (but I can't even make out if it has rivets or not, that's how poor the "detail" shows up if it's not a close up).  Ray F. W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebu ild@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Forgot to add:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The Tender is DEFINATLY a Bowser, it new production to replace the cast tender that had that awful rigid talgo coupler. Also note the loop coupler on the back of it! Of course, look at the train on my layout behind- they run Mantua loops too!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- On Thu, 5/14/09, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebu ild@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebu ild@>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Date: Thursday, May 14, 2009, 7:18 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> >               [Attachment( s) from Stephen Neubaum included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> >             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> >       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> >       This is my first time attaching pictures to this group, so if they don't show, let me know
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Anyway, attached are three pictures of my Knapp/Bowser/ Whatever- it-is Mountain. Note the wheels and the valve gear. I am aware the pilot deck is NOT original, it is a Varney part and even has Varney stamped underneath.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Any clue about this? Like I say, it runs well, so I am happy, but knowing it's excact make and such would just make me happier.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- On Sun, 5/10/09, erieberk <erieberk@wmconnect . com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: erieberk <erieberk@wmconnect . com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Knapp / Bowser Mountain
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:13 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> >       Hi Jim,  Found your attachment, but as it stated as it was downloading, that it was about to take about 11 or 12 minutes, I decided to go to "attachments" on the Group Page as Don suggested; it opened right away.  Pics look good, all the needed detail is easily seen.  Nice examples, matches what I have here; I see no difference in the drive train of Knapps or Bowser either.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> > >        Dennis, W Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> > >       I'm sending some pictures to try to answer some questions posed about the differences between the cast brass Knapp Mountain and the later version put out by Bill Bowser / Redlands CA. I ask you to remember that when one company buys out anothers products there can be a "switch over" using up parts. I don't know if this is the case but have to mention it. You decide if what I write is fact or possibly fiction. Also remember that Knapp was an early (1938-1939) entrant into HO and they didn't last long. There have been no plans or assembly sheets that have come forward. Most of my information has been exchanged with members from other groups and close train collector friends. Four advertisements are the only printed word I can draw from. They include MR Sept 1938 (Langes Model Supplies), MR Oct 1938 ( Knapp ad with their "producers of miniature motors since 1890'"motto) , MR Jan 1939 Knapp ad, and the final one I know of MR Feb 1939 (which seems
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  to be a final ad.). I don't intend to type all the info but will draw parts of it as it pertains to the Knapp cast brass 4-8-2 Mountain questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> > >     Knapp Electric, Inc. of  739 E. Market St.Indianapolis, Indiana  was mainly a producer of electrical parts. They didn't last long in HO as I pointed out in a previous post.  Statement in the ad from Langes Model Supply " The engine superstructure is cast BRONZE". (Not a metallurgist , I always called it brass). This statement has me stumped " the tender is made of heavy sheet BRASS. (All tenders I know of are cast brass)  Statement "  The drivers and tender truck wheels (hub mounted) are made of BRASS.  Linen laminated Celeron is used for insulation".  Statement " The Knapp motor uses Alnico permanent magnet field".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> > >      MR Oct 1938 statement " Wheels are solid BRASS. Reversible 6 VOLT D.C. permanent magnet motor operates from transformer, Rectifier or Hot-Shot battery". (Ad shows someone holding the armature of this motor.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> > >     MR Jan 1939  from Knapp "A Frank Statement on Knapp Scale Model Locomotives" Basically talks about all new items having problems that need ironing out. Being pressed for deliveries of their engine the first 100 shipped were not up to snuff (The shorting problem). Later it claims all the problems were corrected which in reality seems not to be true.They must have had more. This ad has an entire paragraph about their 6 volt motor. To much to type, you will have to get the ad and read.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >    The last ad comes one month later, MR Feb 1939 from Knapp. The ad talks about a reduced price for trying the Knapp engine and a guarantee. Try the engine for five days and if you don't like it return it. Needless to say the next this engine appeared was under the Bowser Redlands CA name owned by Bill Bowser with the changes I previously noted.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> > >     Hope this answers some of the questions. Knapp was originally a 6 volt motor, later Bowser a 12 volt. The drivers were solid brass and insulated at the hub which caused shorts through the valve gear, Bowser cast metal. You can see both types on the last picture. Knapp on top , Bowser on bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> > >      I will relate here how different people have different facts. A man selling on Ebay claimed he had Knapp cast brass Mountains for sale. He said you could be sure as the metal had a reddish tinge  and the middle two spoked drivers had no flanges (Everything I know said all drivers flanged). Knowing him I ask where his information came from. He said he would share after the sale. the only thing he did mention was the previous owner told him (and gave his name). He never followed up with more plus pictures he promised.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> > >     To W Ray W. Check out the pictures as I see no difference in the design of the drive train from Knapp to Bowser. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >    Any discussion on different opinions welcome. Again the small  amount of paper work and the engines limits being 100 % sure. My "facts" come from numerous sources and collectors who I will believe till further proof comes out.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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> > >                          Hope no mistakes.                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10633
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Don,  Great, your numbers only add to what we know about this manufacturer up until now.  I hope Chuck H sees this and adds it to the spread sheet.  Can I presume that the Wabash is a 50' Auto Car?  If so, the car is in the Walthers Early production (#929-355), although I didn't have a car number for it as it's one I'm missing. I guess I'll find out when I go to your photos.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The original Silver Streak used two different car numbers on at least some cars, as did Menzies.  The number of cars they did this with is still undetermined, as I've never come across them all, but some of them are Kit 201 UP, and Kit 207 C of G box cars, and Kit 411 ART and Kit 416 PFE reefers to use as examples.  I haven't seen walthers use multiple numbers though, but could have missed them.  No cars had more than two numbers however, that I know of.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Re: The "Silver Streak" list, I have a couple car numbers I don't see.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL&SF Box Car 213.  You list car No. 132053, mine is 126053
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN Box Car 217, you list 73232, mine is 23732
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have a Wabash car, R/n 78943 that doesn't appear anywhere.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Photos of the three cars in question are in my "zDon_Dellmann's stuff - 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Silverstreak" photo album.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 8:50 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Chuck,  While the group was on this discussion, I checked out the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > spread sheet we did on this, finding some omissions.  I've since made the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > time to check into what was missing, so with your help, maybe you'd like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > to up-load them when you get a chance.  I don't think that leaves very 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > many missing car numbers at all, although I can't supply those few at this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > time as my collection of them is not quite complete.  Please add the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > following cars and/or car numbers:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Walthers Early Production --
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Standard Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S126 -- C&NW 11552
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Truss Rod Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S123 -- AT&SF 1157
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Bay Window Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S116 -- SP 239 Box Car Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Drovers Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S107 -- MP 1105
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 40' Double Door Auto Box Car:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S303 -- GN 3506 Caboose Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 50' Double Door Auto Box Car:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S356 -- SP 58211
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 40' Ice Bunker Reefer:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S419 -- C&NW 2657
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 40' Truss Rod Reefer:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S701 -- GN 62763 Yellow
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S703 CS (Colorado Southern) 30052 Orange
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Walthers Early (Later) Production:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Standard Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-124 -- CB&Q 14112 B/C Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-128 -- MILW 823 Reefer Yellow
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Bay Window Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-122 -- MILW 0255 Silver
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Drover Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-130 -- AT&SF 985 B/C Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 40' Truss Rod Box Car:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-902 -- NP 38673 B/C Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Maintenance of Way:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > (Chuck, All cars used the same numbers as the Walthers Early production, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > all cars are Reefer Gray) --
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-801  -- MW430
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-802  -- MW809
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-803  -- MW525
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-804  -- MW383
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-805  -- MW720
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-806  --  MW97
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Thanks Chuck, that's all I have up to this point.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10634
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Joe,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I think the drivers are original, but it has been a while since i have looked at it. The interesting thing is.. It is an original Varney chassis that looks to have had the original axle slots filled and new ones machined in, with brass axle bearings inserted. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Somebody invested some serious time and effort in that thing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I also note the brass rimmed drivers - haven't seen those
                                                                                                                                                                                    
in a good long time.  Almost looks a bit like the Mantua
                                                                                                                                                                                    
0-6-0 underside although the valve gear is certainly not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mantua.  I was also wondering what driver had the gear
                                                                                                                                                                                    
but your pictures show that perfectly.  Those axle bearings
                                                                                                                                                                                    
also look like Mantua.  Enjoy.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It is a very nice custom job that I wish I could take credit for.  Not for sale, since I am certain it is a one-of-a-kind.. especially at todays prices. For the little I paid for it, I am very eager to keep it for a while. The only thing i have done with it is throw on the (green) steam chests which had the zimax rot. It would be tragic if the rest of it suffered from that.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: oljoeoh <oljoe@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 4:27:58 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fantasy" Dockside
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> YEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOW - THAT is one very interesting
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> item. Do you have any idea when that was offered?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Those drivers are larger than what were on the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 0-4-0.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > This is my Varney 0-6-0 lil Joe with the early rear truck single brush..
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Yeah, I said 0-6-0...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10635
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don,  I just checked out your Tru Scale photos; saw your 50' Wabash .  I'm interested to know if you bought the Wabash car as new in the box, and if so, what manufacturer was it labeled for?  Reason, is that Main Line also produced a 50' box car (Kit # BC-11), and I'm now wondering about its origin.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Re: The "Silver Streak" list, I have a couple car numbers I don't see.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> SL&SF Box Car 213.  You list car No. 132053, mine is 126053
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN Box Car 217, you list 73232, mine is 23732
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have a Wabash car, R/n 78943 that doesn't appear anywhere.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Photos of the three cars in question are in my "zDon_Dellmann's stuff - 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Silverstreak" photo album.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 8:50 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Chuck,  While the group was on this discussion, I checked out the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > spread sheet we did on this, finding some omissions.  I've since made the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > time to check into what was missing, so with your help, maybe you'd like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > to up-load them when you get a chance.  I don't think that leaves very 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > many missing car numbers at all, although I can't supply those few at this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > time as my collection of them is not quite complete.  Please add the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > following cars and/or car numbers:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Walthers Early Production --
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Standard Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S126 -- C&NW 11552
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Truss Rod Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S123 -- AT&SF 1157
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Bay Window Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S116 -- SP 239 Box Car Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Drovers Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S107 -- MP 1105
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 40' Double Door Auto Box Car:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S303 -- GN 3506 Caboose Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 50' Double Door Auto Box Car:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S356 -- SP 58211
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 40' Ice Bunker Reefer:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S419 -- C&NW 2657
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 40' Truss Rod Reefer:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S701 -- GN 62763 Yellow
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S703 CS (Colorado Southern) 30052 Orange
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Walthers Early (Later) Production:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Standard Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-124 -- CB&Q 14112 B/C Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-128 -- MILW 823 Reefer Yellow
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Bay Window Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-122 -- MILW 0255 Silver
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Drover Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-130 -- AT&SF 985 B/C Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 40' Truss Rod Box Car:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-902 -- NP 38673 B/C Red
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Maintenance of Way:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > (Chuck, All cars used the same numbers as the Walthers Early production, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > all cars are Reefer Gray) --
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-801  -- MW430
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-802  -- MW809
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-803  -- MW525
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-804  -- MW383
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-805  -- MW720
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-806  --  MW97
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Thanks Chuck, that's all I have up to this point.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10636
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside w/ More Pics of the drivers
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Joe,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I will try to take a look at it again. It has been a while.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    from the picture, the bearings look Mantua to me as well. It has been at least 2 yers since I have looked at it, so who knows by now. For all I know, it could have Mantua drivers.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Here are some more close-up pics of the drivers...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean....
                                                                                                                                                                                    Somebody invested some serious time and effort in that thing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    I also note the brass rimmed drivers - haven't seen those
                                                                                                                                                                                    in a good long time. Almost looks a bit like the Mantua
                                                                                                                                                                                    0-6-0 underside although the valve gear is certainly not
                                                                                                                                                                                    Mantua. I was also wondering what driver had the gear
                                                                                                                                                                                    but your pictures show that perfectly. Those axle bearings
                                                                                                                                                                                    also look like Mantua. Enjoy.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Joe O'Loughlin

                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10637
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 5/15/2009 6:15 AM EDT, Ray F.W. wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    PRR P5a (Modified, or not) was a 4-C-4 (4-6-4), the lone PRR R1 was a 4-D-4 (4-8-4).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    -------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Actually, a P-5 (or P-5a) is a 2-C-2 and the R-1 was a 2-D-2.  The AAR system used for non-steam locomotives counts axles, numeric for non-powered and alphabetic for powered.  That would make the one-off P-5b a B-C-B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10638
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Bowser/Knapp Boilers [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                    OK, Now my curiousity is piqued!

                                                                                                                                                                                    My boiler is identical to the Bowser casting in every way except one- I have the Knapp handrail holds, there are no seperate stanchions, but it does look like they were soldered.

                                                                                                                                                                                    This keeps getting better and better, doesn't it?

                                                                                                                                                                                    @Ray, I would actually LIKE to use a Mantua long distance tender with this, but I would have to make a new longer drawbar out of brass. No energy to do this in the near future, so this tender will have to do.

                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Fri, 5/15/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Bowser/Knapp Boilers [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc:
 lennard@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 10:54 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                    






    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                       Steve N, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          The pictures I am 
sending is to further help to ID a cast brass post war Bowser / Bill Bowser 
/ Redlands Ca  Mountain (Not Bowser / Lew English) from the pre war Knapp 
boiler bodies. Remember as always in the case of one company buying another 
there is usually extra stock and carry over items. I can only tell you that 
these pictures, showing 3 subtle differences, should help distinguish one 
from the other.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           Remember that 
in all the pictures the Bowser/Redlands CA Mountain is on the left, the earlier 
Knap on the right.  I had mentioned in a post yesterday that the Knapp 
boiler had the stanchions already cast on the boiler. They had a little V at the 
end were you peened over or soldered the hand rail on. This is one sure way to 
know Knapp from Bowser, which had holes drilled for stanchions.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
Picture 
1                
 Shows the stanchions cast on the Knapp boiler on right
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
Picture 
2                 
Bowser dome has added detail on top, Knapp plain
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
Pictures 3 & 4         The 
stacks are different. Knapp is larger diameter with better looking outside 
detail. Bowser is smaller detail , outside a little plainer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             I don't know who 
made the original die or who did the casting. Some slight changes had to 
made. The stack detail changes has me a little confused with the earlier 
Knapp having the larger size and Bowser the smaller. To me harder to change the 
die that way then going from little to big.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10639
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Little Joe questions-John
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
Thanks, John:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I think I'll call Bowser Monday; gives me a weekend to think of anything
else I need from them.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Lots of good stuff coming to light here on the List about these little
engines.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 09:41 PM 5/13/2009, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Easiest way to get a Varney w/crosshead guides and valve would be to get
a valve gear kit from Bowser, part #460. It appears to be the same as the
Central Valley kit that was a popular addition to the old Varney�s.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Finding a metal Varney with valve gear ain�t easy. Not a bunch show up
for sale and them that do usually cast a bit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                    John
Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc.
Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10640
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Sampson Passenger SL-15
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Absolutely, I must have pushed that wrong
button again, sorry.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 6:40 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson
Passenger SL-15
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck, WOW, my very own folder! Alright -- THANKS a
lot for loading my Sampson Power Car plans up there. Didn't know where to look
first, so I went to the Files -- but then I saw it in the Photos section. Incidentally,
is there a way that my name's spelling could be corrected, or replaced with the
correct spelling? Not that I don't appeciate what you did, but it's alway nice
to have one's name spelled right, if it's not too much of a problem. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks again, Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You now have a folder and the copy is now in it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> _____ 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com]
On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 12:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sampson Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Chuck, I'll get that out to you in tomorrow's mail. Thanks again for
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    the
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > help in posting it. Looks like Jim is looking forward to seeing it too;
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > sending him a copy also. Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I can't wait to see the assembly instructions and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > photo for the Sampson SL-15 power car. I've always wanted one for my
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > collection but this will fill in blanks about this true vintage, hard
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    to
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > > find item.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                     

 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10641
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Little Joe questions [2 Attachments]-Jay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
Great information for me, Jay, thank you.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Interesting comment you made about the B.E.D.T.'s six wheel tank
Porters.  I'd like to see a photo of those, do you know of any on
line?  I've got a Mantua Little Six, and it is a great runner, but
that rear driver buried under the cab floor just doesn't seem right to
me.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I need to watch for more Little Joe/Dockside's for sale.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 07:11 AM 5/14/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    [
Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hi Dennis T. and All,

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Like you, the little locomotive that Gordon Varney once advertised as
"The Nocturnal Little Beast" came into my collection later in
life, only a few years ago. One thing you will discover, is that if you
like it now, it will grow on you even more in the future! Somehow I had
skipped owning one when starting out in HO in the early 1960's, and not
because the body was by then, molded in styrene. It was simply that one
of my uncles worked for a Brooklyn, NY waterfront railroad, the Brooklyn
District Eastern Terminal (B.E.D.T) and they used a fleet of 0-6-0's into
the early 1960's. The square-tanked Mantua/Tyco "Little Six,"
an accurate model of two of their locomotives built by Porter, so that's
what I bought and lettered for my switcher.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Varney sure hit with all notes running in 1942 with the
"Docksider" AKA "Little Joe" - an accurate B&O
model that still can hold its own in terms of both overall proportions
and details. Plus, they ran well, so well as to be produced in the
hundreds of thousands and be a first locomotive for many new model
railroaders over several decades. So in a collection, they represent not
rarity or exclusivity, (except for the 6 V.), but are simply examples of
what likely was the most popular HO scale locomotive ever
manufactured.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
No small role for "Little Joe"!

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
What versions are collectible? It depends on the collector. I tend to
take a broad vision of our Vintage HO hobby. To me any Varney Docksider
is collectible, beginning with the scarce early 1940's 6 volt version
that is well represented in a photo album here. The diecast 12 volt
versions are also highly desirable, and having at least one in original
state and one with Central Valley vale gear is achievable. How about
another with the optional Kemtron brass "Cab-Foward" casting
that many modelers bought as an accessory add-on in the 1950’s? (I
believe still available from Precision Scale). Those Varney boxes with
the large nighttime photo of the prototype in operation on top are a nice
extra to have, too. While many of us would stop with the diecast metal
versions, others will continue following the interesting later production
examples.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
As to the plastic versions, there were two main versions by Varney. The
early "high headlight" version is much more difficult to find.
As a scale model you would be hard pressed to tell the difference if both
it and a diecast metal one were detailed and painted, set side by
side.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A second plastic version was also issued by Varney, the difference being
that the headlight was lowered for ease in assembly. In the mid 1960's,
Varney produced them in six wild colors including Armor Yellow Union
Pacific, Central Green NY Central (see attached photos). That later era
seems to be when the quality of die castings was most susceptible to
Zamac rot or pest, and one will be hard pressed to find
"unmolested" examples in new condition. While not everyone’s
cup of tea, the high prices they fetch on eBay is an indication of their
collectibility. The Varney collector might stop there, but to me,
at least one Bowser edition, with the latest can motor and new gearbox
would complete the collection, stretching over 65 years
production.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Rivarossi keyed into the popularity of the Docksider in the late
1940’s, but one might be hard pressed to call their first a scale
model, as the plastic (Bakelite?) body was produced in 4mm. scale with an
HO gauged chassis, in other words, built to British HO standards.
Alexandro Rossi noted in an interview that they followed the motor design
of the successful British Trix Twin line with adjustable
"sidesaddle" brushes before developing their own well respected
ball bearing motors. Polk’s in New York, who then represented Rivarossi
in the United States, imported many of and sold them for $9.95 in the
late 1940’s, less than Varney at that time. I have one of these
fascinating very early Rivarossi Docksiders, and will post photos when I
am able.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Much later, in the 1960’s Rivarossi began manufacturing both deluxe and
economy B&O Docksiders. I like how Rivarossi designers followed
Gordon Varney’s lead in using their own company initials,
"RR," on the smokebox-side builder plates in place of the
"V" for Varney. As if paying a bit of silent homage to the
original master. As to Like-Like’s derivative "Little Joe"
produced in Pacific Rim countries, I’m sure Sol Kramer of
Varney/Lifelike had the Asian engineers use the Varney designed edition
as a guide, but made more inexpensively, but as I don’t have an example
yet, can not offer any details on them.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
But the final word, and the nice part of this hobby is that you can
develop your collection any way you want. I started out with just wanting
the diecast versions, but those later plastic-bodied editions kept
gravitating to me in lots, from a uncle, etc. After looking them over, I
thought "Why not?" 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
See, I said those "Little Joes" will grow on you.  And
they don’t take much space, either!

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10642
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside [3 Attachments]-Jim
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
Well, Jim, that's a dandy cab forward.  Nothing like I've ever
seen.  I'd say that's a keeper; thank you for the photos.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Docksides get more interesting all the time.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 10:44 AM 5/14/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    [
Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W, Dennis , All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

            Since
Jay W mentioned the Kemtron Cab Forward on the Varney Dockside I want to
show you how far it can go. This is a Varney 4-4-4 Cab Forward Dockside
with a wooden tender. (Since it is a "fantasy" HO engine it's
decaled for the Pennsy.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
          Jay
W, nice write up on the Varney and Rivarossi Docksides also.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Attachment(s) from jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
3 of 3 Photo(s) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

IMG_3521_1.JPG

                                                                                                                                                                                    

IMG_3521_1.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                    

IMG_3522_2.JPG

                                                                                                                                                                                    

IMG_3522_2.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                    

IMG_3526_3.JPG

                                                                                                                                                                                    

IMG_3526_3.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10643
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside w/ More Pics of the drivers
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I just grabbed some of the Mantua drivers I seem to have sitting around (some with brass tires) and compared them with your photos. I would say there is little doubt that they are Mantua's except that Varneys' look about the same. If they are Mantua drivers I think who ever did this rather neat conversion just used their drivers and bearings. Nothing else looks to be Mantua. The motor looks to be the original Varney and the driver spacing does not match any Mantua. The valve gear does not appear to contain any Mantua pieces and the side rods look scratch built. Whoever did was picky though as he used what is most likely all 0-4-0 drivers as the Mantua 0-6-0 used blind drivers on its geared (center) axle. Or an extra Varney driver set. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Actually, I just had one of my brilliant (but slow) ideas and measured the driver diameter using my trusty vintage 1963 vernier calipers and they came to 0.559 at the tire next to the flange. Hmmmm that translates to 48.663 in HO. They are supposed to be 51" drivers. But back in those days Mantua made the drivers undersized which I would guess was due to the large flanges in use at the time. Some of the other, nickel silver tired drivers that still have the large flanges measure the same. I guessing the small drivers in conjunction with the big flanges gave the right "look" to the drivers. On the new RP-25 flange drivers I purchased from Yardbird, they measure to be 0.589 which scales out to 51.25 ". Yet, they look similar in size unless they are side-by-side.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I believe you have more than one Dockside. Maybe you can do a little driver size comparison between them? Bearings still look like Mantua, especially since Varney didn't have any.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Have I confused anyone yet? Besides myself that is.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Joe,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I will try to take a look at it again. It has been a while.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> from the picture, the bearings look Mantua to me as well. It has been at least 2 yers since I have looked at it, so who knows by now. For all I know, it could have Mantua drivers.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Here are some more close-up pics of the drivers...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sean....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Somebody invested some serious time and effort in that thing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I also note the brass rimmed drivers - haven't seen those
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in a good long time. Almost looks a bit like the Mantua
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 0-6-0 underside although the valve gear is certainly not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mantua. I was also wondering what driver had the gear
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> but your pictures show that perfectly. Those axle bearings
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> also look like Mantua. Enjoy.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10644
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
That's some real forward thinking, there (apologies for the pun). Very nice work, and it certainly looks like something that could have been. I'm sure the extra wheels help with electrical pickup.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jay, You have one of the 1940's Rivarossi Docksides? I've been wondering if any had survived. They may not be prototypical, but they looked great based on the cover of the 1948 catalog: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/Cataloghi_pubblicati/Catalogo_1948/Catalogo_1948.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Please post pictures. I'd give my eye teeth for one of those.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I recently noticed something odd about the European version of the later Rivarossi deluxe Dockside -- there's an extra handrail on the pilot above the uncoupling lever, which isn't present on the American runs. These photos are from an eBay auction.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t131/NickelPlate759/Parts/?action=view¤t=BoxedRivarossi1221HO0-4-0Dockside4.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t131/NickelPlate759/Parts/?action=view¤t=BoxedRivarossi1221HO0-4-0Dockside1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I always wondered why those holes were there.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W, Dennis , All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Since Jay W mentioned the Kemtron Cab Forward on the Varney Dockside I want to show you how far it can go. This is a Varney 4-4-4 Cab Forward Dockside with a wooden tender. (Since it is a "fantasy" HO engine it's decaled for the Pennsy.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           Jay W, nice write up on the Varney and Rivarossi Docksides also.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10645
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    That's an amazing piece, Sean. If the original axle slots have been filled, I can't tell. The guy must have been a machinist. How well does it run?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10646
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ralph,  I THOUGHT that's the way it worked, but it's been a long time since I discussed wheel arrangements of electric locomotives.  Since I was out of touch with them, I went along with the way you were referring to them.  Why then, when you were replying to Jim, did you refer to the PRR R-1 as a 4-6-4 ? -- and I'm not referring to the wrong count.  At least I got the powered axles right by using an alphabetical designation.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Alpvalsys@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In a message dated 5/15/2009 6:15 AM EDT, Ray F.W. wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> PRR P5a (Modified, or not) was a 4-C-4 (4-6-4), the lone PRR R1 was a 4-D-4 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (4-8-4).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Actually, a P-5 (or P-5a) is a 2-C-2 and the R-1 was a 2-D-2.  The AAR 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> system used for non-steam locomotives counts axles, numeric for non-powered and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> alphabetic for powered.  That would make the one-off P-5b a B-C-B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steps! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221823239x1201398650/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=May
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Excfooter51509NO62)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10647
						From: Bill DeFoe
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    My very first HO locomotive, purchased in 1951, was a Varney Dockside so it holds a special place in my heart.  Some day, after I'm gone, a vintage collector is going to have a real puzzle on their hands.  My Little Joe sports a custom machined brass frame and "sprung" Samhongsa nickel silver RP-25 drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Add to this DCC and Soundtraxx decoder and speaker.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> That's an amazing piece, Sean. If the original axle slots have been filled, I can't tell. The guy must have been a machinist. How well does it run?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10648
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 1:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Don,  Great, your numbers only add to what we know about this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> manufacturer up until now.  I hope Chuck H sees this and adds it to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> spread sheet.  Can I presume that the Wabash is a 50' Auto Car?  If so, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the car is in the Walthers Early production (#929-355), although I didn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have a car number for it as it's one I'm missing. I guess I'll find out 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> when I go to your photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The original Silver Streak used two different car numbers on at least some 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> cars, as did Menzies.  The number of cars they did this with is still 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> undetermined, as I've never come across them all, but some of them are Kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 201 UP, and Kit 207 C of G box cars, and Kit 411 ART and Kit 416 PFE 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> reefers to use as examples.  I haven't seen walthers use multiple numbers 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> though, but could have missed them.  No cars had more than two numbers 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> however, that I know of.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
No, the Wabash car is definitely an early 40' single door.  I know it's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
early, it was in a box of other stuff from the late 40's, early 50's, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
even had Kadee "K" series mechanicals on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The only Walthers era Silverstreaks I have are the Westcott & Winks reefer 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and the GB&W reefer.  All the rest are at the newest 1960 or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10649
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 1:57 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don,  I just checked out your Tru Scale photos; saw your 50' Wabash .  I'm 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> interested to know if you bought the Wabash car as new in the box, and if 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> so, what manufacturer was it labeled for?  Reason, is that Main Line also 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> produced a 50' box car (Kit # BC-11), and I'm now wondering about its 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> origin.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
No box.  It was in a box of other cars from the late 40's, early 50's.  It 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
definitely has the Silverstreak cast underframe, ends and doors, so I doubt 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
it's a Mainline.  It matches my other known Silverstreak cars too perfectly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10650
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Little Joe//Mantua Little Six - BEDT Prototypes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dennis, and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mantua fudged a bit with the rear drivers on "Little Six"  but here is the Wonderful BEDT Brooklym Eastern District Terminal RR Website, and amazing historical record and photo archive.  BEDT had two Porter square tank locomotives, used until 1963 or so on the East River (NY) Waterfront, #12 and #13
                                                                                                                                                                                    
This is the link for the page on #12.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.trainweb.org/bedt/bedt/BEDT12.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Great information for me, Jay, thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Interesting comment you made about the B.E.D.T.'s 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> six wheel tank Porters.  I'd like to see a photo 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of those, do you know of any on line?  I've got a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mantua Little Six, and it is a great runner, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> that rear driver buried under the cab floor just doesn't seem right to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I need to watch for more Little Joe/Dockside's for sale.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> At 07:11 AM 5/14/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >[Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Hi Dennis T. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Like you, the little locomotive that Gordon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Varney once advertised as "The Nocturnal Little 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Beast" came into my collection later in life, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >only a few years ago. One thing you will 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >discover, is that if you like it now, it will 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >grow on you even more in the future! Somehow I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >had skipped owning one when starting out in HO 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >in the early 1960's, and not because the body 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >was by then, molded in styrene. It was simply 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >that one of my uncles worked for a Brooklyn, NY 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >waterfront railroad, the Brooklyn District 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Eastern Terminal (B.E.D.T) and they used a fleet 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >of 0-6-0's into the early 1960's. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >square-tanked Mantua/Tyco "Little Six," an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >accurate model of two of their locomotives built 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >by Porter, so that's what I bought and lettered for my switcher.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Varney sure hit with all notes running in 1942 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >with the "Docksider" AKA "Little Joe" - an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >accurate B&O model that still can hold its own 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >in terms of both overall proportions and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >details. Plus, they ran well, so well as to be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >produced in the hundreds of thousands and be a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >first locomotive for many new model railroaders 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >over several decades. So in a collection, they 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >represent not rarity or exclusivity, (except for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >the 6 V.), but are simply examples of what 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >likely was the most popular HO scale locomotive ever manufactured.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >No small role for "Little Joe"!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >What versions are collectible? It depends on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >collector. I tend to take a broad vision of our 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Vintage HO hobby. To me any Varney Docksider is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >collectible, beginning with the scarce early 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >1940's 6 volt version that is well represented 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >in a photo album here. The diecast 12 volt 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >versions are also highly desirable, and having 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >at least one in original state and one with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Central Valley vale gear is achievable. How 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >about another with the optional Kemtron brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >"Cab-Foward" casting that many modelers bought 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >as an accessory add-on in the 1950’s? (I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >believe still available from Precision Scale). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Those Varney boxes with the large nighttime 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >photo of the prototype in operation on top are a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >nice extra to have, too. While many of us would 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >stop with the diecast metal versions, others 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >will continue following the interesting later production examples.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >As to the plastic versions, there were two main 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >versions by Varney. The early "high headlight" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >version is much more difficult to find. As a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >scale model you would be hard pressed to tell 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >the difference if both it and a diecast metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >one were detailed and painted, set side by side.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >A second plastic version was also issued by 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Varney, the difference being that the headlight 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >was lowered for ease in assembly. In the mid 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >1960's, Varney produced them in six wild colors 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >including Armor Yellow Union Pacific, Central 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Green NY Central (see attached photos). That 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >later era seems to be when the quality of die 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >castings was most susceptible to Zamac rot or 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >pest, and one will be hard pressed to find 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >"unmolested" examples in new condition. While 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >not everyone’s cup of tea, the high prices 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >they fetch on eBay is an indication of their 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >collectibility. The Varney collector might stop 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >there, but to me, at least one Bowser edition, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >with the latest can motor and new gearbox would 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >complete the collection, stretching over 65 years production.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Rivarossi keyed into the popularity of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Docksider in the late 1940’s, but one might be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >hard pressed to call their first a scale model, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >as the plastic (Bakelite?) body was produced in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >4mm. scale with an HO gauged chassis, in other 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >words, built to British HO standards. Alexandro 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Rossi noted in an interview that they followed 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >the motor design of the successful British Trix 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Twin line with adjustable "sidesaddle" brushes 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >before developing their own well respected ball 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >bearing motors. Polk’s in New York, who then 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >represented Rivarossi in the United States, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >imported many of and sold them for $9.95 in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >late 1940’s, less than Varney at that time. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >have one of these fascinating very early 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Rivarossi Docksiders, and will post photos when I am able.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Much later, in the 1960’s Rivarossi began 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >manufacturing both deluxe and economy B&O 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Docksiders. I like how Rivarossi designers 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >followed Gordon Varney’s lead in using their 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >own company initials, "RR," on the smokebox-side 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >builder plates in place of the "V" for Varney. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >As if paying a bit of silent homage to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >original master. As to Like-Like’s derivative 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >"Little Joe" produced in Pacific Rim countries, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >I’m sure Sol Kramer of Varney/Lifelike had the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >Asian engineers use the Varney designed edition 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >as a guide, but made more inexpensively, but as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >I don’t have an example yet, can not offer any details on them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >But the final word, and the nice part of this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >hobby is that you can develop your collection 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >any way you want. I started out with just 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >wanting the diecast versions, but those later 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >plastic-bodied editions kept gravitating to me 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >in lots, from a uncle, etc. After looking them over, I thought "Why not?"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >See, I said those "Little Joes" will grow on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >you.  And they don’t take much space, either!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10651
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Little Joe//Mantua Little Six - BEDT Prototypes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Looks like a kitbash is in order here...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    With so many mantua shifters and switchers out there, there are no shortage of parts..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 8:56:11 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Little Joe//Mantua Little Six - BEDT Prototypes

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dennis, and All,

                                                                                                                                                                                    Mantua fudged a bit with the rear drivers on "Little Six" but here is the Wonderful BEDT Brooklym Eastern District Terminal RR Website, and amazing historical record and photo archive. BEDT had two Porter square tank locomotives, used until 1963 or so on the East River (NY) Waterfront, #12 and #13
                                                                                                                                                                                    This is the link for the page on #12.

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.trainweb .org/bedt/ bedt/BEDT12. html

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Great information for me, Jay, thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Interesting comment you made about the B.E.D.T.'s 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > six wheel tank Porters. I'd like to see a photo 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > of those, do you know of any on line? I've got
 a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Mantua Little Six, and it is a great runner, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > that rear driver buried under the cab floor just doesn't seem right to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I need to watch for more Little Joe/Dockside' s for sale.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > At 07:11 AM 5/14/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >[Attachment( s) from Jay Wanczyk included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Hi Dennis T. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Like you, the little locomotive that Gordon 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Varney once advertised as "The Nocturnal Little 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Beast" came into my collection later in life, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >only a few years ago. One thing you will 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >discover, is that if you like it now, it will 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >grow on you even more in the future! Somehow I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >had skipped owning one when starting out in HO 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >in the early 1960's, and not because the body 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >was by then, molded in
 styrene. It was simply 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >that one of my uncles worked for a Brooklyn, NY 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >waterfront railroad, the Brooklyn District 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Eastern Terminal (B.E.D.T) and they used a fleet 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >of 0-6-0's into the early 1960's. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >square-tanked Mantua/Tyco "Little Six," an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >accurate model of two of their locomotives built 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >by Porter, so that's what I bought and lettered for my switcher.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Varney sure hit with all notes running in 1942 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >with the "Docksider" AKA "Little Joe" - an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >accurate B&O model that still can hold its own 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >in terms of both overall proportions and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >details. Plus, they ran well, so well as to be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >produced in the hundreds of thousands and be a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >first locomotive for many new model railroaders 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >over several decades. So in a collection, they
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >represent not rarity or exclusivity, (except for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >the 6 V.), but are simply examples of what 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >likely was the most popular HO scale locomotive ever manufactured.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >No small role for "Little Joe"!
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >What versions are collectible? It depends on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >collector. I tend to take a broad vision of our 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Vintage HO hobby. To me any Varney Docksider is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >collectible, beginning with the scarce early 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >1940's 6 volt version that is well represented 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >in a photo album here. The diecast 12 volt 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >versions are also highly desirable, and having 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >at least one in original state and one with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Central Valley vale gear is achievable. How 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >about another with the optional Kemtron brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >"Cab-Foward" casting that many modelers
 bought 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >as an accessory add-on in the 1950’s? (I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >believe still available from Precision Scale). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Those Varney boxes with the large nighttime 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >photo of the prototype in operation on top are a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >nice extra to have, too. While many of us would 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >stop with the diecast metal versions, others 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >will continue following the interesting later production examples.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >As to the plastic versions, there were two main 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >versions by Varney. The early "high headlight" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >version is much more difficult to find. As a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >scale model you would be hard pressed to tell 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >the difference if both it and a diecast metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >one were detailed and painted, set side by side.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >A second plastic version was also issued by 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Varney, the
 difference being that the headlight 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >was lowered for ease in assembly. In the mid 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >1960's, Varney produced them in six wild colors 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >including Armor Yellow Union Pacific, Central 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Green NY Central (see attached photos). That 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >later era seems to be when the quality of die 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >castings was most susceptible to Zamac rot or 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >pest, and one will be hard pressed to find 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >"unmolested" examples in new condition. While 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >not everyone’s cup of tea, the high prices 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >they fetch on eBay is an indication of their 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >collectibility. The Varney collector might stop 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >there, but to me, at least one Bowser edition, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >with the latest can motor and new gearbox would 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >complete the collection, stretching over 65 years production.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Rivarossi keyed into the
 popularity of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Docksider in the late 1940’s, but one might be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >hard pressed to call their first a scale model, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >as the plastic (Bakelite?) body was produced in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >4mm. scale with an HO gauged chassis, in other 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >words, built to British HO standards. Alexandro 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Rossi noted in an interview that they followed 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >the motor design of the successful British Trix 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Twin line with adjustable "sidesaddle" brushes 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >before developing their own well respected ball 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >bearing motors. Polk’s in New York, who then 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >represented Rivarossi in the United States, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >imported many of and sold them for $9.95 in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >late 1940’s, less than Varney at that time. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >have one of these fascinating very early 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Rivarossi Docksiders, and will post photos when I am able.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
 >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Much later, in the 1960’s Rivarossi began 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >manufacturing both deluxe and economy B&O 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Docksiders. I like how Rivarossi designers 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >followed Gordon Varney’s lead in using their 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >own company initials, "RR," on the smokebox-side 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >builder plates in place of the "V" for Varney. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >As if paying a bit of silent homage to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >original master. As to Like-Like’s derivative 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >"Little Joe" produced in Pacific Rim countries, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >I’m sure Sol Kramer of Varney/Lifelike had the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >Asian engineers use the Varney designed edition 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >as a guide, but made more inexpensively, but as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >I don’t have an example yet, can not offer any details on them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >But the final word, and the nice part of this 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >hobby is that you
 can develop your collection 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >any way you want. I started out with just 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >wanting the diecast versions, but those later 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >plastic-bodied editions kept gravitating to me 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >in lots, from a uncle, etc. After looking them over, I thought "Why not?"
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >See, I said those "Little Joes" will grow on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >you. And they don’t take much space, either!
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10652
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: layout progressing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Collecting has kind of stopped as layout progresses. Lots done but lots to do. 
In the middle of starting to build 7 DPM (Woodland Scenic) old time buildings 
for middle of the town. Will finish certain areas with trees , grass and 
details.  Soon I'll have many settings to take nice diorama type pictures 
using vintage trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Picture 5 shows the start of a bay from a large lake that will contain camping 
sites with boats and fisherman. The lake will have that "water " added which is 
something I've never done before. Should be interesting when I get to 
it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Next big projects are to add the girder bridge and finish around it and 
also to put in a tunnel for traffic to get from one side the mountain to the 
other. Big plans, budget not as big. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10653
						From: Garry Spear
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: FS: for sale Varney PRR Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a Varney Aerotrain.  Power car, two coaches and an observation;
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the power car has the original Varney power unit.  The motor has bee
                                                                                                                                                                                    
tested and runs.  The train has not been track tested.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The train is currently listed on eBay with pictures and a description.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 These can be viewed at
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150344800689
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Asking $125.00; this price will include shipping and insurance to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
continental US.  Hawaii & Alaska may be more; sometimes shipping to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
these states get crazy.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Garrett (Garry) Spear
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10654
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Zamac rot question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    First, there are so many informative and intriguing discussions going 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
on here lately I can hardly keep up.  When you identified my, "early 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Bowser Mountain," for me I've been trying to follow and fit mine into 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the progressions of that model.  Not sure I've got a fit yet, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
mine does have the, "second," short set of handrails, (higher than 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the long rails), running from behind the front sand dome back 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
towards, but not quite to, the cab front.  I also have the cast brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
boiler and what I suspect is at least a second series valve gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Meanwhile, a Zamac question:  For models made with such material, if 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
they are going to crack, expand, disintegrate, etc., would they, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"all," have done that by now or not?   Asked another way, if a person 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
buys an early Zamac model now that is fine today, can it begin to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
fall apart in the future?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Just curious.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10655
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Little Joe//Mantua Little Six - BEDT Prototypes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks, Jay.  Great web site and I don't think 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I've ever seen that before.  In looking closely 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
at that locomotive it does have some Porter 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
characteristics, like the slight dome shape to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the smokebox cover.  Makes a lot more sense about 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the Mantua Booster/Little Six now, but Mantua 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
apparently liked piston valves better than D valves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
So now I feel better about the Mantua engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
At 05:56 PM 5/15/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >Hi Dennis, and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Mantua fudged a bit with the rear drivers on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>"Little Six"  but here is the Wonderful BEDT 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Brooklym Eastern District Terminal RR Website, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>and amazing historical record and photo 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>archive.  BEDT had two Porter square tank 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>locomotives, used until 1963 or so on the East 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>River (NY) Waterfront, #12 and #13
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>This is the link for the page on #12.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>http://www.trainweb.org/bedt/bedt/BEDT12.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Great information for me, Jay, thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Interesting comment you made about the B.E.D.T.'s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > six wheel tank Porters.  I'd like to see a photo
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > of those, do you know of any on line?  I've got a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Mantua Little Six, and it is a great runner, but
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > that rear driver buried under the cab floor just doesn't seem right to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I need to watch for more Little Joe/Dockside's for sale.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > At 07:11 AM 5/14/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >[Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Hi Dennis T. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Like you, the little locomotive that Gordon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Varney once advertised as "The Nocturnal Little
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Beast" came into my collection later in life,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >only a few years ago. One thing you will
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >discover, is that if you like it now, it will
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >grow on you even more in the future! Somehow I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >had skipped owning one when starting out in HO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >in the early 1960's, and not because the body
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >was by then, molded in styrene. It was simply
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >that one of my uncles worked for a Brooklyn, NY
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >waterfront railroad, the Brooklyn District
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Eastern Terminal (B.E.D.T) and they used a fleet
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >of 0-6-0's into the early 1960's. The
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >square-tanked Mantua/Tyco "Little Six," an
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >accurate model of two of their locomotives built
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >by Porter, so that's what I bought and lettered for my switcher.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Varney sure hit with all notes running in 1942
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >with the "Docksider" AKA "Little Joe" - an
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >accurate B&O model that still can hold its own
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >in terms of both overall proportions and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >details. Plus, they ran well, so well as to be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >produced in the hundreds of thousands and be a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >first locomotive for many new model railroaders
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >over several decades. So in a collection, they
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >represent not rarity or exclusivity, (except for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >the 6 V.), but are simply examples of what
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >likely was the most popular HO scale locomotive ever manufactured.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >No small role for "Little Joe"!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >What versions are collectible? It depends on the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >collector. I tend to take a broad vision of our
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Vintage HO hobby. To me any Varney Docksider is
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >collectible, beginning with the scarce early
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >1940's 6 volt version that is well represented
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >in a photo album here. The diecast 12 volt
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >versions are also highly desirable, and having
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >at least one in original state and one with
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Central Valley vale gear is achievable. How
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >about another with the optional Kemtron brass
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >"Cab-Foward" casting that many modelers bought
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >as an accessory add-on in the 1950’s? (I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >believe still available from Precision Scale).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Those Varney boxes with the large nighttime
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >photo of the prototype in operation on top are a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >nice extra to have, too. While many of us would
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >stop with the diecast metal versions, others
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >will continue following the interesting later production examples.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >As to the plastic versions, there were two main
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >versions by Varney. The early "high headlight"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >version is much more difficult to find. As a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >scale model you would be hard pressed to tell
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >the difference if both it and a diecast metal
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >one were detailed and painted, set side by side.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >A second plastic version was also issued by
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Varney, the difference being that the headlight
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >was lowered for ease in assembly. In the mid
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >1960's, Varney produced them in six wild colors
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >including Armor Yellow Union Pacific, Central
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Green NY Central (see attached photos). That
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >later era seems to be when the quality of die
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >castings was most susceptible to Zamac rot or
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >pest, and one will be hard pressed to find
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >"unmolested" examples in new condition. While
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >not everyone’s cup of tea, the high prices
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >they fetch on eBay is an indication of their
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >collectibility. The Varney collector might stop
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >there, but to me, at least one Bowser edition,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >with the latest can motor and new gearbox would
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >complete the collection, stretching over 65 years production.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Rivarossi keyed into the popularity of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Docksider in the late 1940’s, but one might be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >hard pressed to call their first a scale model,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >as the plastic (Bakelite?) body was produced in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >4mm. scale with an HO gauged chassis, in other
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >words, built to British HO standards. Alexandro
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Rossi noted in an interview that they followed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >the motor design of the successful British Trix
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Twin line with adjustable "sidesaddle" brushes
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >before developing their own well respected ball
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >bearing motors. Polk’s in New York, who then
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >represented Rivarossi in the United States,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >imported many of and sold them for $9.95 in the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >late 1940’s, less than Varney at that time. I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >have one of these fascinating very early
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Rivarossi Docksiders, and will post photos when I am able.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Much later, in the 1960’s Rivarossi began
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >manufacturing both deluxe and economy B&O
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Docksiders. I like how Rivarossi designers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >followed Gordon Varney’s lead in using their
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >own company initials, "RR," on the smokebox-side
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >builder plates in place of the "V" for Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >As if paying a bit of silent homage to the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >original master. As to Like-Like’s derivative
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >"Little Joe" produced in Pacific Rim countries,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >I’m sure Sol Kramer of Varney/Lifelike had the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >Asian engineers use the Varney designed edition
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >as a guide, but made more inexpensively, but as
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >I don’t have an example yet, can not offer any details on them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >But the final word, and the nice part of this
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >hobby is that you can develop your collection
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >any way you want. I started out with just
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >wanting the diecast versions, but those later
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >plastic-bodied editions kept gravitating to me
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >in lots, from a uncle, etc. After looking them over, I thought "Why not?"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >See, I said those "Little Joes" will grow on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >you.  And they don’t take much space, either!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10656
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: //Mantua Little Six - BEDT Prototypes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    >Thanks, Jay.  Great web site and I don't think 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>I've ever seen that before.  In looking closely 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>at that locomotive it does have some Porter 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>characteristics, like the slight dome shape to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>the smokebox cover.  Makes a lot more sense 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>about the Mantua Booster/Little Six now, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Mantua apparently liked piston valves better than D valves.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>So now I feel better about the Mantua engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>At 05:56 PM 5/15/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>Hi Dennis, and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>Mantua fudged a bit with the rear drivers on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>"Little Six"  but here is the Wonderful BEDT 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>Brooklym Eastern District Terminal RR Website, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>and amazing historical record and photo 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>archive.  BEDT had two Porter square tank 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>locomotives, used until 1963 or so on the East 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>River (NY) Waterfront, #12 and #13
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>This is the link for the page on #12.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>http://www.trainweb.org/bedt/bedt/BEDT12.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Great information for me, Jay, thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Interesting comment you made about the B.E.D.T.'s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > six wheel tank Porters.  I'd like to see a photo
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > of those, do you know of any on line?  I've got a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Mantua Little Six, and it is a great runner, but
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > that rear driver buried under the cab floor just doesn't seem right to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > I need to watch for more Little Joe/Dockside's for sale.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > At 07:11 AM 5/14/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >[Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Hi Dennis T. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Like you, the little locomotive that Gordon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Varney once advertised as "The Nocturnal Little
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Beast" came into my collection later in life,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >only a few years ago. One thing you will
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >discover, is that if you like it now, it will
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >grow on you even more in the future! Somehow I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >had skipped owning one when starting out in HO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >in the early 1960's, and not because the body
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >was by then, molded in styrene. It was simply
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >that one of my uncles worked for a Brooklyn, NY
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >waterfront railroad, the Brooklyn District
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Eastern Terminal (B.E.D.T) and they used a fleet
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >of 0-6-0's into the early 1960's. The
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >square-tanked Mantua/Tyco "Little Six," an
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >accurate model of two of their locomotives built
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >by Porter, so that's what I bought and lettered for my switcher.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Varney sure hit with all notes running in 1942
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >with the "Docksider" AKA "Little Joe" - an
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >accurate B&O model that still can hold its own
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >in terms of both overall proportions and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >details. Plus, they ran well, so well as to be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >produced in the hundreds of thousands and be a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >first locomotive for many new model railroaders
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >over several decades. So in a collection, they
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >represent not rarity or exclusivity, (except for
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >the 6 V.), but are simply examples of what
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >likely was the most popular HO scale locomotive ever manufactured.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >No small role for "Little Joe"!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >What versions are collectible? It depends on the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >collector. I tend to take a broad vision of our
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Vintage HO hobby. To me any Varney Docksider is
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >collectible, beginning with the scarce early
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >1940's 6 volt version that is well represented
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >in a photo album here. The diecast 12 volt
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >versions are also highly desirable, and having
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >at least one in original state and one with
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Central Valley vale gear is achievable. How
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >about another with the optional Kemtron brass
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >"Cab-Foward" casting that many modelers bought
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >as an accessory add-on in the 1950’s? (I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >believe still available from Precision Scale).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Those Varney boxes with the large nighttime
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >photo of the prototype in operation on top are a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >nice extra to have, too. While many of us would
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >stop with the diecast metal versions, others
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >will continue following the interesting later production examples.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >As to the plastic versions, there were two main
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >versions by Varney. The early "high headlight"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >version is much more difficult to find. As a
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >scale model you would be hard pressed to tell
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >the difference if both it and a diecast metal
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >one were detailed and painted, set side by side.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >A second plastic version was also issued by
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Varney, the difference being that the headlight
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >was lowered for ease in assembly. In the mid
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >1960's, Varney produced them in six wild colors
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >including Armor Yellow Union Pacific, Central
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Green NY Central (see attached photos). That
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >later era seems to be when the quality of die
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >castings was most susceptible to Zamac rot or
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >pest, and one will be hard pressed to find
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >"unmolested" examples in new condition. While
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >not everyone’s cup of tea, the high prices
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >they fetch on eBay is an indication of their
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >collectibility. The Varney collector might stop
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >there, but to me, at least one Bowser edition,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >with the latest can motor and new gearbox would
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >complete the collection, stretching over 65 years production.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Rivarossi keyed into the popularity of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Docksider in the late 1940’s, but one might be
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >hard pressed to call their first a scale model,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >as the plastic (Bakelite?) body was produced in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >4mm. scale with an HO gauged chassis, in other
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >words, built to British HO standards. Alexandro
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Rossi noted in an interview that they followed
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >the motor design of the successful British Trix
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Twin line with adjustable "sidesaddle" brushes
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >before developing their own well respected ball
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >bearing motors. Polk’s in New York, who then
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >represented Rivarossi in the United States,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >imported many of and sold them for $9.95 in the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >late 1940’s, less than Varney at that time. I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >have one of these fascinating very early
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Rivarossi Docksiders, and will post photos when I am able.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Much later, in the 1960’s Rivarossi began
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >manufacturing both deluxe and economy B&O
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Docksiders. I like how Rivarossi designers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >followed Gordon Varney’s lead in using their
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >own company initials, "RR," on the smokebox-side
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >builder plates in place of the "V" for Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >As if paying a bit of silent homage to the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >original master. As to Like-Like’s derivative
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >"Little Joe" produced in Pacific Rim countries,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >I’m sure Sol Kramer of Varney/Lifelike had the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >Asian engineers use the Varney designed edition
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >as a guide, but made more inexpensively, but as
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >I don’t have an example yet, can not offer any details on them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >But the final word, and the nice part of this
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >hobby is that you can develop your collection
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >any way you want. I started out with just
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >wanting the diecast versions, but those later
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >plastic-bodied editions kept gravitating to me
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >in lots, from a uncle, etc. After looking them over, I thought "Why not?"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >See, I said those "Little Joes" will grow on
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >you.  And they don’t take much space, either!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>------------------------------------ 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10657
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don,  Thanks for making me look deeper into this subject -- which I probably should have done long ago.  As you'll note, the Silver Streak spread-page that Chuck H. uploaded to the files last year from the information I supplied him does not have the original Silver Streak 40' box car kits # 202 through # 206 (five kits/roadnames), as I don't have them and hadn't research it enough to find them, when I thought I exhausted the source material.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
With your addition, I was intent on getting to the bottom of this; your Wabash 40' wood-sheathed box car IS an original Silver Streak, I would think produced before George Menzies bought them out.  I find it as one of the "missing" kit numbers for original Silver Streak, in a 1950 catalog "Ma" Webster's, where I never thought of looking before this.  I suspect Menzies never continued to carry this kit as I don't find it being offered after that time in any catalog.  Four of these five previously missing kits, to be included in Silver Streak's 40' box car listing are; NKP (NYC&StL), SL-SW (Cotton Belt), Southern and Wabash -- not necessarily in that order.  The fifth missing kit still eludes me.  I don't have the kit numbers for these four cars though, but they fit within the #202 -- #206 numbering order.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> No, the Wabash car is definitely an early 40' single door.  I know it's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> early, it was in a box of other stuff from the late 40's, early 50's, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> even had Kadee "K" series mechanicals on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The only Walthers era Silverstreaks I have are the Westcott & Winks reefer 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and the GB&W reefer.  All the rest are at the newest 1960 or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10658
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside w/ More Pics of the drivers
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean.....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Once again you have supplied pics that add much more
                                                                                                                                                                                    
to that 0-6-0 item of yours.  I am particularly 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
intrigued with those hand fabricated wheel pickups
                                                                                                                                                                                    
and the heavy thinking that went into them - really
                                                                                                                                                                                    
neat ideas there.  Now that you mention it those 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
drivers might be Mantua, from the Mikado.  I assembled
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a Mikado way back when but I think mine had the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
silver rims.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I also note that worm gear.  Looks a lot like one
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have on a MDC 0-6-0 I have.  All of the Mantua
                                                                                                                                                                                    
stuff I have seen had a nylon worm that drove me 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
nuts until I figured out how to keep it from "moving"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
down the motor shaft.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Joe,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I will try to take a look at it again. It has been a while.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> from the picture, the bearings look Mantua to me as well. It has been at least 2 yers since I have looked at it, so who knows by now. For all I know, it could have Mantua drivers.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Here are some more close-up pics of the drivers...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Re:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sean....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Somebody invested some serious time and effort in that thing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I also note the brass rimmed drivers - haven't seen those
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in a good long time. Almost looks a bit like the Mantua
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 0-6-0 underside although the valve gear is certainly not
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mantua. I was also wondering what driver had the gear
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> but your pictures show that perfectly. Those axle bearings
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> also look like Mantua. Enjoy.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10659
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don,  You'll please excuse me for dismissing your car from being a Silver Streak.  When I first checked out your Wabash car photo last night, for some odd reason it had the "appearance" to me of being longer than 40' and I assumed it was a 50' car, not taking a longer look at it.  All of Silver Streak's (Walther's) 50' cars are double door auto cars, including their Wabash 50' car which has "Automobile - Furniture" on the left side and "WABASH" on the right side, so I came to the too-fast conclusion that your car may have been made by someone else.  This was before I took another look at your car this morning and dug up more info.  Discovering everything that was made by some of these early manufacturers can get increasingly difficult the further back we need to go, and the more that they made.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 1:57 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don,  I just checked out your Tru Scale photos; saw your 50' Wabash .  I'm 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > interested to know if you bought the Wabash car as new in the box, and if 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > so, what manufacturer was it labeled for?  Reason, is that Main Line also 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > produced a 50' box car (Kit # BC-11), and I'm now wondering about its 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > origin.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> No box.  It was in a box of other cars from the late 40's, early 50's.  It 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> definitely has the Silverstreak cast underframe, ends and doors, so I doubt 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> it's a Mainline.  It matches my other known Silverstreak cars too perfectly.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10660
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks.  When I saw there were gaps in the numbering I suspected that's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
where it fell, but without any documentation I couldn't know which.  That's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
what you guys are for <G>.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I do have one more car I haven't shown or listed, a D&RGW "Cookie Box", 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
which is a Silverstreak car, and is listed, but I am not posting the road 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
number because the lettering appears to be decaled.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 6:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don,  Thanks for making me look deeper into this subject -- which I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> probably should have done long ago.  As you'll note, the Silver Streak 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> spread-page that Chuck H. uploaded to the files last year from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> information I supplied him does not have the original Silver Streak 40' 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> box car kits # 202 through # 206 (five kits/roadnames), as I don't have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> them and hadn't research it enough to find them, when I thought I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> exhausted the source material.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> With your addition, I was intent on getting to the bottom of this; your 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Wabash 40' wood-sheathed box car IS an original Silver Streak, I would 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> think produced before George Menzies bought them out.  I find it as one of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the "missing" kit numbers for original Silver Streak, in a 1950 catalog 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "Ma" Webster's, where I never thought of looking before this.  I suspect 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Menzies never continued to carry this kit as I don't find it being offered 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> after that time in any catalog.  Four of these five previously missing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> kits, to be included in Silver Streak's 40' box car listing are; NKP 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (NYC&StL), SL-SW (Cotton Belt), Southern and Wabash -- not necessarily in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> that order.  The fifth missing kit still eludes me.  I don't have the kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> numbers for these four cars though, but they fit within the #202 -- #206 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> numbering order.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> No, the Wabash car is definitely an early 40' single door.  I know it's
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> early, it was in a box of other stuff from the late 40's, early 50's, and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> even had Kadee "K" series mechanicals on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> The only Walthers era Silverstreaks I have are the Westcott & Winks 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> reefer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> and the GB&W reefer.  All the rest are at the newest 1960 or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10661
						From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO 
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
group.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  File        : /V List Silver Streak cars.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Description : List of Silver Streak cars over the years  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Silver%20Streak%20cars.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10662
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    215 is a DGR&W Cookie box on the
list.  I think I have added all of the previous posts about the list.  It is in
the file section now.  I did find those photos under the TruScale/Silver Streak
folder.  As always let me know if anyone finds something that needs adjusting.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 8:43
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:
Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe 
reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks. When I saw there were gaps in the numbering I
suspected that's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
where it fell, but without any documentation I couldn't know which. That's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
what you guys are for <G>.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I do have one more car I haven't shown or listed, a D&RGW "Cookie
Box", 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
which is a Silverstreak car, and is listed, but I am not posting the road 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
number because the lettering appears to be decaled.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 6:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak, was -
 Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don, Thanks for making me look deeper into this subject -- which I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> probably should have done long ago. As you'll note, the Silver Streak 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> spread-page that Chuck H. uploaded to the files last year from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> information I supplied him does not have the original Silver Streak 40' 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> box car kits # 202 through # 206 (five kits/roadnames) , as I don't
have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> them and hadn't research it enough to find them, when I thought I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> exhausted the source material.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> With your addition, I was intent on getting to the bottom of this; your 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Wabash 40' wood-sheathed box car IS an
original Silver Streak, I would 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> think produced before George Menzies bought them out. I find it as one of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the "missing" kit numbers for original Silver Streak, in a 1950
catalog 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "Ma" Webster's, where I never thought of looking before this. I
suspect 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Menzies never continued to carry this kit as I don't find it being offered

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> after that time in any catalog. Four of these five previously missing 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> kits, to be included in Silver Streak's 40' box car listing are; NKP 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (NYC&StL), SL-SW (Cotton Belt), Southern and Wabash 
-- not necessarily in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> that order. The fifth missing kit still eludes me. I don't have the kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> numbers for these four cars though, but they fit within the #202 -- #206 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> numbering order. Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> No, the Wabash car is definitely an
early 40' single door. I know it's
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> early, it was in a box of other stuff from the late 40's, early 50's,
and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> even had Kadee "K" series mechanicals on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> The only Walthers era Silverstreaks I have are the Westcott &
Winks 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> reefer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> and the GB&W reefer. All the rest are at the newest 1960 or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> don.dellmann@ ...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10663
						From: Alpvalsys@aol.com
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 5/16/2009 8:56:35 AM EDT, Ray F.W. asked:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    Why then, when you were replying to Jim, did you refer to the PRR R-1 as a 4-6-4 ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    --------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ignoring my incorrect wheel count, it's the way the Pennsy did it.  For example, Class D steam locomotives were 4-4-0s, Class DD-1 electric locomotives were (back-to-back) 4-4-0s (2-B+B-2); Class G steam locos were ten-wheelers (4-6-0), and GG-1 electrics were (back-to-back) ten-wheelers (2-C+C-2).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The Whyte system counts wheels, but it doesn't tell you which ones are powered.  The AAR system differentiates between powered and non-powered axles.  The UIC system used in much of the rest of the world takes the AAR system one step further and tells you whether the powered axles are driven individually or jointly (via gears or, as with a DD-1, via siderods).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10664
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I know they made the cookie box, but as I said, mine appears to be decaled.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
As far as the Walthers' takeover, the oldest catalog page I can put my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
fingers on at the moment that says "Silver Streak Division of Wm. K. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Walthers" is dated 4/72.  I've got some older ones downstairs, I'll check 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
those later.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 7:59 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 215 is a DGR&W Cookie box on the list.  I think I have added all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> previous posts about the list.  It is in the file section now.  I did find
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> those photos under the TruScale/Silver Streak folder.  As always let me 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> know
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> if anyone finds something that needs adjusting.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  _____
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 8:43 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks. When I saw there were gaps in the numbering I suspected that's
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> where it fell, but without any documentation I couldn't know which. That's
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> what you guys are for <G>.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I do have one more car I haven't shown or listed, a D&RGW "Cookie Box",
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> which is a Silverstreak car, and is listed, but I am not posting the road
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> number because the lettering appears to be decaled.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@ <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net> prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr. <http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube. <http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. <mailto:erieberk%40wmconnect.com> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 6:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Don, Thanks for making me look deeper into this subject -- which I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> probably should have done long ago. As you'll note, the Silver Streak
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> spread-page that Chuck H. uploaded to the files last year from the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> information I supplied him does not have the original Silver Streak 40'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> box car kits # 202 through # 206 (five kits/roadnames), as I don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> them and hadn't research it enough to find them, when I thought I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> exhausted the source material.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> With your addition, I was intent on getting to the bottom of this; your
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Wabash 40' wood-sheathed box car IS an original Silver Streak, I would
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> think produced before George Menzies bought them out. I find it as one of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the "missing" kit numbers for original Silver Streak, in a 1950 catalog
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> "Ma" Webster's, where I never thought of looking before this. I suspect
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Menzies never continued to carry this kit as I don't find it being 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> offered
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> after that time in any catalog. Four of these five previously missing
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> kits, to be included in Silver Streak's 40' box car listing are; NKP
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> (NYC&StL), SL-SW (Cotton Belt), Southern and Wabash -- not necessarily in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> that order. The fifth missing kit still eludes me. I don't have the kit
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> numbers for these four cars though, but they fit within the #202 -- #206
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> numbering order. Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> No, the Wabash car is definitely an early 40' single door. I know it's
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> early, it was in a box of other stuff from the late 40's, early 50's, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> even had Kadee "K" series mechanicals on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> The only Walthers era Silverstreaks I have are the Westcott & Winks
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> reefer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> and the GB&W reefer. All the rest are at the newest 1960 or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> http://www.flickr. <http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> http://www.youtube. <http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10665
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Zamac rot question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    It is not 'inevitable' that all zamac will eventually disintigrate. It  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
depends upon the purity (or lack of same) in the particular batch of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
molten zamac from which the casting was made.  The only zamac that  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
willl disintigrate is that zamac that contains impurities and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
contaminations right from the time it was initially in molten form in  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a furnace.   I recall a report from many years ago about failing zamac  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
castings from one manufacturer who routinely swept up the sprues and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
other trimmings from the castings littering the floor  (along with  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
everything else that happened to be on the floor at the time) and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
tipped them right into the furnace with the next batch of 'fresh'  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
molten zamac. It was this kind of zamac that was destined to fail in  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
future years.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
High failure rates are found in prewar Marklin, American Flyer and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
postwar Model Die Casting models.  Low failure rates are found with  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ulrich (in particular), and a middle rate with Varney (because he used  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a variety of job casting shops).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10666
						From: Mike Sloane
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Zamac rot question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I tend to agree with Danny's comments. Not related to model railroading, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
but I have two very similar Akai tape decks from the '60s. Each has an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
identical zamac cam that is used to actuate the record/play function. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
One of the cams is in perfect condition, while the other simply 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
disintegrated - crumbled away to fragments. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
<http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/old-electronics-and/akaim9cam.html> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
So it appears that the problem wasn't just related to our old models. In 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the last several years, the use of zamac seems to have been much 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
reduced, and most of what I have seen seems to be limited to things like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
pulleys and flywheels on tuners and cassette drives (remember cassettes?).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Denny Anspach wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It is not 'inevitable' that all zamac will eventually disintigrate. It
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> depends upon the purity (or lack of same) in the particular batch of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> molten zamac from which the casting was made. The only zamac that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> willl disintigrate is that zamac that contains impurities and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> contaminations right from the time it was initially in molten form in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> a furnace. I recall a report from many years ago about failing zamac
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> castings from one manufacturer who routinely swept up the sprues and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> other trimmings from the castings littering the floor (along with
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> everything else that happened to be on the floor at the time) and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> tipped them right into the furnace with the next batch of 'fresh'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> molten zamac. It was this kind of zamac that was destined to fail in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> future years.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> High failure rates are found in prewar Marklin, American Flyer and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> postwar Model Die Casting models. Low failure rates are found with
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ulrich (in particular), and a middle rate with Varney (because he used
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> a variety of job casting shops).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sacramento 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10667
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Zamac rot question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Denny,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Interesting reading of your summary of the extent of the various manufacturer's problems.  In my more limited experience, the noteable problems I've experienced with Ulrich seems to be some of the earlier editions of some models (with brass slope sheets or ends).  In one or two of their early catalogs(on HOseeker), Model Die-Casting shows some of the work done under contract for other manufacturers, and one of them who MDC cast for in the late 1940's was Ulrich!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I think quality control and better understanding of the metal alloys increased with company size and in-house quality control.  I can not recall seeing or reading of an English Matchbox, Corgi or Dinkey diecast zinc-alloy car ever crumbling away!  Modern Bowser erected a spacial zinc alloy-only casting building to keep later items pure.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It is not 'inevitable' that all zamac will eventually disintigrate. It  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> depends upon the purity (or lack of same) in the particular batch of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> molten zamac from which the casting was made.  The only zamac that  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> willl disintigrate is that zamac that contains impurities and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> contaminations right from the time it was initially in molten form in  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> a furnace.   I recall a report from many years ago about failing zamac  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> castings from one manufacturer who routinely swept up the sprues and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> other trimmings from the castings littering the floor  (along with  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> everything else that happened to be on the floor at the time) and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> tipped them right into the furnace with the next batch of 'fresh'  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> molten zamac. It was this kind of zamac that was destined to fail in  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> future years.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> High failure rates are found in prewar Marklin, American Flyer and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> postwar Model Die Casting models.  Low failure rates are found with  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ulrich (in particular), and a middle rate with Varney (because he used  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> a variety of job casting shops).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10668
						From: Garry Spear
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Zamac rot question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Lionel preWar casting still fail (after 60-70) years.  After 60 + years casting can look good one day and show visable cracks the next.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
My older metal cars (Athearn, MDC, Ulrich) that I bought as kits and
assembled in the 50s all have sound metal.  All these cars were
100% primed with zink chromate primer, before painting.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
While restoring older metal cars, I use ACC (the watery type) as a
coating agent at all cracks and fissures in the diecast metal. 
Then prime with zink chromate before painting.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
Garry Spear

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10669
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Don,  No need to check your older Walthers catalogs, I've already reported (message #10516 -- 5/9/09) on when Walthers took over the Silver Streak line from Menzies -- it was in 1972 as per the last catalog you could put your finger on.  Before this, and up until 1971, Walthers advertised this line as -- "Silver Streak - Mfg by Pacific HO."  In 1972 and 1973, Walthers advertised them as you stated, "Division of Wm. K. Walthers Inc."  In 1974 and 1975, however, they advertised the line as "Manufactured by William K. Walthers Inc (same as they did for their Ulrich line), but then went back to "Division of William K. Walthers Inc," which I could never figure out the reason for.  For that matter, I'd have thought their line of Ulrich cars would have also been a division of the company, after they started manufacturing them.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
In any case, the D&RGW "Cookie Box" box car was first produced by George Menzies' Silver Streak.  It may have had a second car side number, but I only know of #60007.  I don't know of any Silver Streak cars that came with decals, by any manufacturer, unless Ye Olde Huff N Puff included them.  Looks like you took the right precautions by not stating the road number because of it being decalled.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I know they made the cookie box, but as I said, mine appears to be decaled.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> As far as the Walthers' takeover, the oldest catalog page I can put my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> fingers on at the moment that says "Silver Streak Division of Wm. K. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Walthers" is dated 4/72.  I've got some older ones downstairs, I'll check 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> those later.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 7:59 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 215 is a DGR&W Cookie box on the list.  I think I have added all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > previous posts about the list.  It is in the file section now.  I did find
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > those photos under the TruScale/Silver Streak folder.  As always let me 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > know
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > if anyone finds something that needs adjusting.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  _____
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Of Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 8:43 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Thanks. When I saw there were gaps in the numbering I suspected that's
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > where it fell, but without any documentation I couldn't know which. That's
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > what you guys are for <G>.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I do have one more car I haven't shown or listed, a D&RGW "Cookie Box",
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > which is a Silverstreak car, and is listed, but I am not posting the road
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > number because the lettering appears to be decaled.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > don.dellmann@ <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net> prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.flickr. <http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.youtube. <http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: "erieberk" <erieberk@wmconnect. <mailto:erieberk%40wmconnect.com> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 6:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Don, Thanks for making me look deeper into this subject -- which I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> probably should have done long ago. As you'll note, the Silver Streak
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> spread-page that Chuck H. uploaded to the files last year from the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> information I supplied him does not have the original Silver Streak 40'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> box car kits # 202 through # 206 (five kits/roadnames), as I don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> them and hadn't research it enough to find them, when I thought I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> exhausted the source material.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> With your addition, I was intent on getting to the bottom of this; your
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Wabash 40' wood-sheathed box car IS an original Silver Streak, I would
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> think produced before George Menzies bought them out. I find it as one of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> the "missing" kit numbers for original Silver Streak, in a 1950 catalog
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> "Ma" Webster's, where I never thought of looking before this. I suspect
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Menzies never continued to carry this kit as I don't find it being 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> offered
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> after that time in any catalog. Four of these five previously missing
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> kits, to be included in Silver Streak's 40' box car listing are; NKP
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> (NYC&StL), SL-SW (Cotton Belt), Southern and Wabash -- not necessarily in
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> that order. The fifth missing kit still eludes me. I don't have the kit
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> numbers for these four cars though, but they fit within the #202 -- #206
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> numbering order. Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> No, the Wabash car is definitely an early 40' single door. I know it's
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> early, it was in a box of other stuff from the late 40's, early 50's, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> even had Kadee "K" series mechanicals on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> The only Walthers era Silverstreaks I have are the Westcott & Winks
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> reefer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> and the GB&W reefer. All the rest are at the newest 1960 or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> don.dellmann@
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> http://www.flickr. <http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> http://www.youtube. <http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10670
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties Electrics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I think you may be missing my point.  I was asking why you used a numerical designation for the powered axles (on the R-1) when replying to Jim, which you brought to my attention for erroneously doing, instead of using Pennsy's alphabetical system when you had the opportunity to do so yourself.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Alpvalsys@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In a message dated 5/16/2009 8:56:35 AM EDT, Ray F.W. asked:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Why then, when you were replying to Jim, did you refer to the PRR R-1 as a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 4-6-4 ?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ignoring my incorrect wheel count, it's the way the Pennsy did it.  For 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> example, Class D steam locomotives were 4-4-0s, Class DD-1 electric locomotives 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> were (back-to-back) 4-4-0s (2-B+B-2); Class G steam locos were ten-wheelers 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (4-6-0), and GG-1 electrics were (back-to-back) ten-wheelers (2-C+C-2).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The Whyte system counts wheels, but it doesn't tell you which ones are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> powered.  The AAR system differentiates between powered and non-powered axles.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The UIC system used in much of the rest of the world takes the AAR system 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> one step further and tells you whether the powered axles are driven 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> individually or jointly (via gears or, as with a DD-1, via siderods).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Steps! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377005x1201454319/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=May
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Excfooter51609NO62)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10671
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Zamac rot question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I guess when something is made of pot-metal, how long it last is "pot" luck.  Sorry about the pun but I couldn't resist.  I too have read and heard several different reports on floor sweepings being put back into the melting pots for casting.  It's no wonder there are impurities in this metal.  I've also read that during the Korean War, there were shortages of some metals, which lead to improper mixtures of metals needed to create such a lasting alloy.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Agreed, it's not all zamac or necessarily any certain manufacturer's castings which are (or have been) destined to fail, but the fact that certain parts during certain manufacturing periods seem more prone to doing so -- possibly as the production of these particular parts may have been farmed out to less particular casting outfits at the time.  Some of Varney's cylinder blocks have failed, as well as some of their pre-War driver axle Bearing Blocks.  With John English, it's often the tender truck side frames that go, but the engine components may be untouched.  Some of Athearn's tank car domes for their metal tank cars are notorious for disintegrating to some degree, while the rest of the car may be fine.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It is not 'inevitable' that all zamac will eventually disintigrate. It  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> depends upon the purity (or lack of same) in the particular batch of  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> molten zamac from which the casting was made.  The only zamac that  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> willl disintigrate is that zamac that contains impurities and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> contaminations right from the time it was initially in molten form in  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> a furnace.   I recall a report from many years ago about failing zamac  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> castings from one manufacturer who routinely swept up the sprues and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> other trimmings from the castings littering the floor  (along with  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> everything else that happened to be on the floor at the time) and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> tipped them right into the furnace with the next batch of 'fresh'  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> molten zamac. It was this kind of zamac that was destined to fail in  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> future years.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> High failure rates are found in prewar Marklin, American Flyer and  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> postwar Model Die Casting models.  Low failure rates are found with  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ulrich (in particular), and a middle rate with Varney (because he used  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> a variety of job casting shops).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10672
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Fantasy" Dockside
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I can't swear to it but I think I got one of them sitting in a box somewhere,,,I got to go looking I guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Charlie W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10673
						From: Charles Windes
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: layout progressing [6 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Looking like a lot of progress there Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Charlie W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


 



                                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

-- 

                                                                                                                                                                                     Be Yourself @ mail.com!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10674
						From: Graeme
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Zamac rot question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    In message <gumn3g+tunb@...>, the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
<the_plainsman@...> writes
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>I think quality control and better understanding of the metal alloys 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>increased with company size and in-house quality control.  I can not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>recall seeing or reading of an English Matchbox, Corgi or Dinkey 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>diecast zinc-alloy car ever crumbling away!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sadly, the reverse is true.  Pre war die cast items from the Meccano 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
factory, including both Dinky Toys and Hornby Trains, are well known 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
sufferers, but not, of course, all examples.  Some models are as perfect 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
as the day they were made, others are nothing but a pile of cast crumbs. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have a pre war guards van (caboose) which comprises two axles and a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
tin body, in perfect condition.  The cast chassis and wheels are in a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
million tiny pieces.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Graeme, Scotland
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10675
						From: Bill DeFoe
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Zamac rot question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Apparantly Mantua was not exempt from the Zamak rot problem.  When I found my Mantua 8-Ball Mogul about twenty years ago at a flea market, the boiler front and cylinder block had rotted away.  No other parts have failed since then, so I tend to believe that if the part is going to fail, it will do so early in it's life.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
No one mentioned Lionel.  They had a bad rot problem in their big Hudsons, their most expensive model.  Many of the pieces around today have reproduction parts because of it.  I realize they are off topic for this group, but I thought it worth a mention.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Graeme <groups@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In message <gumn3g+tunb@...>, the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <the_plainsman@...> writes
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >I think quality control and better understanding of the metal alloys 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >increased with company size and in-house quality control. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10676
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Zamac rot question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Graeme,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks for the additional information; I guess I should have qualified that statement of mine to my post WW 2 experience with mostly Matchbox and Corgi! I know that Hornby had problems, not though experience, but through searching out explanations of the Zamac & Mazak "rot/pest" problems and finding one of the most detailed and clear explanations on a Hornby collectors web site!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Graeme <groups@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In message <gumn3g+tunb@...>, the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> <the_plainsman@...> writes
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >I think quality control and better understanding of the metal alloys 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >increased with company size and in-house quality control.  I can not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >recall seeing or reading of an English Matchbox, Corgi or Dinkey 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >diecast zinc-alloy car ever crumbling away!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sadly, the reverse is true.  Pre war die cast items from the Meccano 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> factory, including both Dinky Toys and Hornby Trains, are well known 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> sufferers, but not, of course, all examples.  Some models are as perfect 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> as the day they were made, others are nothing but a pile of cast crumbs. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have a pre war guards van (caboose) which comprises two axles and a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> tin body, in perfect condition.  The cast chassis and wheels are in a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> million tiny pieces.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Graeme, Scotland
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10677
						From: Russ Shiel
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Eel River Models
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    H'lo all! Many thanks to the various respondees to my initial and unsuspecting query on my Santa Fe reefer...which caused me track down my other Santa Fe reefers identifiable as Silver Streak...I have seven of them, all different road numbers, but have yet to work out where they fit in the time-line.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    It occurred to me that this wealth of information should be included in Larry's 'Silver Streak' folder on HO-Seeker.  Would you all, Ray W, Don D and other, mind if I put together a summary of the collective wisdom, duly acknowledged? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    An aside..as per the subject header...I don't know whether Eeel River Models is/are suitably vintage...but I have one...a 62' 10-1/2" insulated beer car kit in a long skinny box which came with a batch of Ambroid/Comet wins...ERM, Box 659, Ukiah CA 95482. Original price on the box $11.95, which made me think likely recent. I couldn't find reference to ERM on HO-Seeker. Google turned up some links, but inaccessible....can anyone expand on this manufacturer?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to all from the socked-in Adelaide Hills!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chrs, Russ

                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Need a Holiday? Win a $10,000 Holiday of your choice.  Enter now..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10678
						From: Jay Wanczyk
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray F. W., Don D. & All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray, After reading your post below, I went back and looked at the Silver Streak spreadsheet and saw those missing numbers and realized that the early Silver Streak ads in Model Railroader contained some of the missing information.  So earlier this evening, I brought out my 1948-1951 issues and made a survey.  I entered the data I found in a copy of your spreadsheet, with missing information I found highlighted in blue type, with questions if this was the right manufactuer's number in red.  Most of Silver Streak's ads have no mfg. numbers, but I copied the car numbers from the photos, if legible.  To keep this workable, I am just including the caboose and boxcar listings; reefers and others to follow.  If you want me to double check anything, lettering, heralds in the photos, do not hesitate to ask! I still have the magazines out!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Ps. all: I am looking for SS's Northeast Caboose kit # 105, assembled or just the sides! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    
Cat. #
Road Name
Car Color
Car Number
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak
 
 
From 1946?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Caboose Standard
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
101
29' 3 window, offset cupola
unlettered, caboose red
 
8/49 MR ad. p 520
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
102
24' 2 window, centered cupola
unlettered, caboose red
 
8/49 MR ad. p 520
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
103
28' 4 window, centered cupola
unlettered, caboose red
 
8/49 MR ad. p 520
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
104
30' 4 window, offset cupola
unlettered, caboose red
 
8/49 MR ad. p 520
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
105
Reading Steel "Northeast Type"
injection molded red sides
10/50 MR ad, p 520
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
106
Free Lance Bobber, 2 window, ctr cupola
unlettered, caboose red
 
10/50 MR ad, p 520
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
MP, 30' 4 window, offset cupola, not drovers
 
2145
12/51 MR ad, p 31
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
110
Southern Pacific, 30' Std.
Caboose Red
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
111
UP, 30' Std.
Reefer Yellow
301
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
112
B&O 28'
Caboose Red
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
113
GN 24'
Caboose Red
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
115
SP "Piggy Back" 30'
Silver
2183
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
116
Southern Pacific, Bay Window
Tuscan Red
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
117
undec, 30' Bay Window
Tuscan Red
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
118
Pacific Electric (no Cupola)
Caboose Red
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
119
Unlettered 34' (no Cupola)
Caboose Red
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Caboose, Truss Rod, 30'
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
120
ERIE
Caboose Red
04956
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
121
undec
Caboose Red
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Caboose, Drover & Comb
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
107
MP, 32'
Box Car Red
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
108
undec, 34'
Reefer Yellow
See listing above # 106
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Caboose, 4-Wheel Wood Bobber
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
undec
Caboose Red
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Box Car, 40' DS
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
201
Union Pacific
Box Car Red
68142, 71991
2/48 MR ad,p 78
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
202
NKP (NYC&StL)
 
23246
2/48 MR ad,p 78
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
203
SL-SW (Cotton Belt)
 
 
2/48 MR ad,p 78
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
204
Southern
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
205
Wabash
Box Car Red
78943
2/48 MR ad,p 78
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
206
GN "See America First"
 
24560
2/48 MR ad,p 78
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
207
CoG
Box Car Red
40581, 40584
#81, 7/49 ad,p 7
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
208
EJ&E
Dark Green 
60357
new 8/50 MR ad
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
209
Savanna & Atlanta
Box Car Red
8073
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
210
M&StL
Light Green
50468
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
211
C&O
Box Car Red
2570
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
212
Minnesota Mining
Box Car Red
1043
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
213
SLSF - Frisco
Box Car Red
132053, 126053
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
214
RI "Rocket Freight"
Box Car Red
69852
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
215
D&RGW "Cookie Box"
Reefer White
60007
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
216
M&StL - Billboard
Caboose Red
54652
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
217
GN
Box Car Red
73232, 23732
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
218
GN
Box Car Red
52069
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
GN
 
26247
11/50 MR ad,p46
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
219
Pacific Electric
Box Car Red
2377
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
220
MKT "Katy"
Reefer Yellow
170198
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
MKT "Katy"
 
170199
2/48 MR ad,p 78
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
NP
 
38572
11/50 MR ad,p46
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Box Car, Double Door 40' DS
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
Southern
 
14825
1/49 MR ad,p 52
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
301
Southern
Box Car Red
149703
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
302
D&RGW
Box Car Red
65530
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
303
GN (Billboard)
Caboose Red
3506
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    # # #
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 7:30:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don, Thanks for making me look deeper into this subject -- which I probably should have done long ago. As you'll note, the Silver Streak spread-page that Chuck H. uploaded to the files last year from the information I supplied him does not have the original Silver Streak 40' box car kits # 202 through # 206 (five kits/roadnames) , as I don't have them and hadn't research it enough to find them, when I thought I exhausted the source material.

                                                                                                                                                                                    With your addition, I was intent on getting to the bottom of this; your Wabash 40' wood-sheathed box car IS an original Silver Streak, I would think produced before George Menzies bought them out. I find it as one of the "missing" kit numbers for original Silver Streak, in a 1950 catalog "Ma" Webster's, where I never thought of looking before this. I suspect Menzies never continued to carry this kit as I don't find it being offered after that time in any catalog. Four of these five previously missing kits,
 to be included in Silver Streak's 40' box car listing are; NKP (NYC&StL), SL-SW (Cotton Belt), Southern and Wabash -- not necessarily in that order. The fifth missing kit still eludes me. I don't have the kit numbers for these four cars though, but they fit within the #202 -- #206 numbering order. Ray F W.

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > No, the Wabash car is definitely an early 40' single door. I know it's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > early, it was in a box of other stuff from the late 40's, early 50's, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > even had Kadee "K" series mechanicals on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > The only Walthers era Silverstreaks I have are the Westcott & Winks reefer 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > and the GB&W reefer. All the rest are at the newest 1960 or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
 Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    > don.dellmann@ ...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    >


                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10679
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: layout progressing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim, Great to see a nice island type layout under construction and yours looks well planned, neat workmanship; in fact the whole room looks good with display shelves along the walls.  W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Collecting has kind of stopped as layout progresses. Lots done but lots to do. In the middle of starting to build 7 DPM (Woodland Scenic) old time buildings for middle of the town. Will finish certain areas with trees , grass and details.  Soon I'll have many settings to take nice diorama type pictures using vintage trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>               Picture 5 shows the start of a bay from a large lake that will contain camping sites with boats and fisherman. The lake will have that "water " added which is something I've never done before. Should be interesting when I get to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>               Next big projects are to add the girder bridge and finish around it and also to put in a tunnel for traffic to get from one side the mountain to the other. Big plans, budget not as big. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                              Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10680
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Old Wood Station Kit
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    OK, I guess this is going to sound a little funny at first, but a friend of mine who likes turtles showed me an 33 RPM album cover from the Grateful Dead, called Terrapin Station. It pictures a couple turtles dancing on a small station platform.

                                                                                                                                                                                    A picture of the cover can be found here:

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.dead.net/archives/1977/artwork/terrapin-station-lp-front

                                                                                                                                                                                    Now, where my question is concerned:

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have, or had, at least,a wood station kit that looks dead on like that station in the illustration, right down to the lantern hanging out above the turtles. When my friend showed me the cover, I knew I saw that station somewhere, but now I can't think of who made the wood model.

                                                                                                                                                                                    In late 2003, a lady in a wealthy suburb of Chicago called my dad, who is program director for the Boy Scouts, and said she has hundreds of wooden model kits here
 late husband never assembled, and she wanted to know if the Scouts would use them for projects.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Dad and I went to her house every evening over the course of a week. Any member of this group would have been drooling to see this stuff! I know it almost hurt to know I could only have a few items- so I had to choose what I wanted carefully out of the pile of stuff I could have.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I chose mostly buildings- there was only HOn3 for rolling stock I could pick for myself, but I got a lot of nice '40s through '60s stuff.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Anyway, anyone know who made a wood station like that? The question is just eating at me tonight now! I think mine is still in my dad's basement, and I either got to hop two buses and ride a bike to his house, take a train and walk a mile from the station, or wait till he brings me over, so who knows how soon I find my model.

                                                                                                                                                                                    And, one final thought: Wasn't there a write up about this cover in MR magazine? Mother bought
 me some old MR mags at a yard sale when I was younger, one of them did have a short commentary on this album cover.

                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10681
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the updates, they have been
added to the file.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jay Wanczyk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 9:00
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:
Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe 
reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray F. W., Don D. & All,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray, After reading your post below, I went back and looked at the
Silver Streak spreadsheet and saw those missing numbers and realized that the
early Silver Streak ads in Model Railroader contained some of the
missing information.  So earlier this evening, I brought out my 1948-1951
issues and made a survey.  I entered the data I found in a copy of your
spreadsheet, with missing information I found highlighted in blue type, with
questions if this was the right manufactuer' s number in red.  Most of
Silver Streak's ads have no mfg. numbers, but I copied the car numbers from the
photos, if legible.  To keep this workable, I am just including
the caboose and boxcar listings; reefers and others to follow.  If
you want me to double check anything, lettering, heralds in the photos, do not
hesitate to ask! I still have the magazines out!
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Ps. all: I am looking for SS's Northeast Caboose kit # 105, assembled
or just the sides! 
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cat. #
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Road Name
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Car Color
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Car Number
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From 1946?
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10682
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Zamac rot question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    It would seem to me that a part that is over 40 years old has "rotted" as much as it is going to do.  Therefore, if I have a part that is cracked, but not falling apart, I could repair or glue the part together and it should be fine.  I have a couple parts I have glued together with CA and primed, and so far, I have not seen any continued rot.  I am asking as a question, to those with more experience than I, if this logic makes since>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I guess when something is made of pot-metal, how long it last is "pot" luck.  Sorry about the pun but I couldn't resist.  I too have read and heard several different reports on floor sweepings being put back into the melting pots for casting.  It's no wonder there are impurities in this metal.  I've also read that during the Korean War, there were shortages of some metals, which lead to improper mixtures of metals needed to create such a lasting alloy.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Agreed, it's not all zamac or necessarily any certain manufacturer's castings which are (or have been) destined to fail, but the fact that certain parts during certain manufacturing periods seem more prone to doing so -- possibly as the production of these particular parts may have been farmed out to less particular casting outfits at the time.  Some of Varney's cylinder blocks have failed, as well as some of their pre-War driver axle Bearing Blocks.  With John English, it's often the tender truck side frames that go, but the engine components may be untouched.  Some of Athearn's tank car domes for their metal tank cars are notorious for disintegrating to some degree, while the rest of the car may be fine.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10683
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Zamac rot question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Coating castings with zinc chromate never hurts, and it surely can  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
disguise for awhile the visible effects of the underlying zincpest,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
but regretfully it will do nothing to prevent or slow down the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
progress of the disease,  because the rot is within. There is no  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
treatment.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  I have a fair number of old zamac castings on continued prolonged  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
life support  courtesy of the simple creation of internal supportive  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
falsework out of balsa, brass, and crumpled-up glassfibre cloth or  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
even paper soaked in epoxy resin.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have also coated castings with epoxy resin, the castings so ridden  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with cracks that only myriads of molecules holding hands have been  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
keeping any semblance of shape.  This highly adhesive resin  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
effectively infiltrates and fills all the cracks, and for the time  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
being secures the integrity of the structure.  However, as the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
zincpest continues its progress over the years, new cracks develop  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
between the old filled cracks, and eventually the game is over.  You  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
simply cannot stop it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have done both of the above to preserve the cast tender of a highly  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
desirable c.1939-41 HO Marklin streamlined 4-6-4 (it looks somewhat   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
'embalmed', but better than the expected usual alternatives, including  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the most common of all- no tender at all).  Note that this was a  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
common problem with the cast tenders of this model, but not the  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
locomotive castings, obviously each casted in, or by different shops.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10684
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    With all of the discussion of the changing ownership of Silver 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Streak over the years, I thought that some photos of the changing boxes 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
might be of interest too. Looking though my box of unbuilt kits I came 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
up with the 8 variations attached.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Photos 1 and 4 both refer to the Silver Streak Corporation of Los 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Angeles.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Photos 2 and 3 just say The Silver Streak Line without any reference 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
on the boxes to the manufacturer or location.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    The box in photo 5 is the first to reference Pacific HO on the box, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
without a location, but just below the red circle on the left side of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the box top you can see that it also says A Tru-Scale Quality Product.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Photo 6 is nearly identical but Pacific HO has bee replaced with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Tru-Scale and San Dimas on both the top and side.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Photo 7 is again almost identical to the last one, except that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Walthers and Milwaukee replace Tru-Scale and San Dimas. It's not very 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
apparent in these photos, but the 2 Tru-Scale boxes are green while the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
nearly identical Walthers version is yellow.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Finally in photo 8 is the later Walthers Silver Streak box. I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
several kits that are in boxes like this one, but when you look at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
direction the Walthers name has had a Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff sticker glued 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
over it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I can provide some details 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
of when these different boxes were in use, at least the earlier ones.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    In looking through my kits I also found some additional information 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
on reporting marks not shown in the spreadsheet as it currently exists:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
#201  UP  boxcar  I have car sides with number 68151.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
#214  RI  boxcar  I have car sides with number 62083.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
#405  PFE  reefer  I have car sides with number 71779.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-S403  NP  reefer  I have car sides with number 93805.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-S701  WFE  reefer  I have 3 of these with number 62761. Wondering if 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the 62763 listed is a typo?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-424  ATSF, El Capitan  reefer  I have car sides numbered 24750.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    I can provide photos of these sides for verification if necessary.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    I also have some Silver Streak from Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff in the YOHNP 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
boxes, only identified as SS by the sticker on the end. Since the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
current listing doesn't go into these I've left them off of this discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
"The big innovation of [Windows] XP is that it has a backdoor that sucks 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
out all your proprietary information. By the way...it still runs all 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
your favorite viruses."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    -Sun Microsystems CEO Scott McNeally
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10685
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 5/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Eel River Models
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I believe that Eel River Models is a branch of Sn3 
Guru Bill Peters of PBL.  Quick geography lesson:  The Eel River flows 
mainly south to North parallel to the California Coast, dumping into the Pacific 
near Eureka. The Russian River flows to the south from a divide near 
Ukiah.  The Northwestern Pacific follows these drainages, although their 
lack of amphibious rolling stock did them in--several winters the flooding on 
the two rivers took the NWP in the general direction of Japan.  

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  Russ 
  Shiel 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 5:48 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Eel River 
  Models
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    H'lo all! Many thanks to the various respondees to my initial and 
  unsuspecting query on my Santa Fe reefer...which caused me track down my other 
  Santa Fe reefers identifiable as Silver Streak...I have seven of them, all 
  different road numbers, but have yet to work out where they fit in the 
  time-line.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    It occurred to me that this wealth of information should be included in 
  Larry's 'Silver Streak' folder on HO-Seeker.  Would you all, Ray W, Don D 
  and other, mind if I put together a summary of the collective wisdom, duly 
  acknowledged? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    An aside..as per the subject header...I don't know whether Eeel River 
  Models is/are suitably vintage...but I have one...a 62' 10-1/2" insulated beer 
  car kit in a long skinny box which came with a batch of Ambroid/Comet 
  wins...ERM, Box 659, Ukiah CA 95482. Original price on the box $11.95, which 
  made me think likely recent. I couldn't find reference to ERM on HO-Seeker. 
  Google turned up some links, but inaccessible....can anyone expand on this 
  manufacturer?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Best to all from the socked-in Adelaide Hills!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Chrs, Russ

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Need a Holiday? Win a $10,000 Holiday of your choice. Enter now.. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10686
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 5/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID [9 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Rick,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Nice photos and thanks for the additional
car numbers.  Typos are very possible, so thanks for checking the list and
advising of the numbers you see/have.  The list now reflects your updates.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:
Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe 
reefer ID [9 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    [Attachment(s) from Rick Jones included
below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                    With all of the discussion of the changing ownership
of Silver 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Streak over the years, I thought that some photos of the changing boxes 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
might be of interest too. Looking though my box of unbuilt kits I came 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
up with the 8 variations attached.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Photos 1 and 4 both refer to the Silver Streak Corporation of
 Los 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Angeles .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Photos 2 and 3 just say The Silver Streak Line without any reference 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
on the boxes to the manufacturer or location.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
The box in photo 5 is the first to reference Pacific HO on the box, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
without a location, but just below the red circle on the left side of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the box top you can see that it also says A Tru-Scale Quality Product.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Photo 6 is nearly identical but Pacific HO has bee replaced with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Tru-Scale and San Dimas 
on both the top and side.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Photo 7 is again almost identical to the last one, except that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Walthers and Milwaukee replace Tru-Scale and
 San Dimas . It's not very 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
apparent in these photos, but the 2 Tru-Scale boxes are green while the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
nearly identical Walthers version is yellow.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Finally in photo 8 is the later Walthers Silver Streak box. I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
several kits that are in boxes like this one, but when you look at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
direction the Walthers name has had a Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff sticker glued 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
over it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I can provide some details 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
of when these different boxes were in use, at least the earlier ones.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
In looking through my kits I also found some additional information 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
on reporting marks not shown in the spreadsheet as it currently exists:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
#201 UP boxcar I have car sides with number 68151.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
#214 RI boxcar I have car sides with number 62083.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
#405 PFE reefer I have car sides with number 71779.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-S403 NP reefer I have car sides with number 93805.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-S701 WFE reefer I have 3 of these with number 62761. Wondering if 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the 62763 listed is a typo?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-424 ATSF, El Capitan reefer I have car
sides numbered 24750.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I can provide photos of these sides for verification if necessary.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I also have some Silver Streak from Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff in the YOHNP 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
boxes, only identified as SS by the sticker on the end. Since the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
current listing doesn't go into these I've left them off of this discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
"The big innovation of [Windows] XP is that it has a backdoor that sucks 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
out all your proprietary information. By the way...it still runs all 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
your favorite viruses."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
-Sun Microsystems CEO Scott McNeally
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10687
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 5/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID [9 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Rick Jones wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >     With all of the discussion of the changing ownership of Silver 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Streak over the years, I thought that some photos of the changing boxes 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> might be of interest too. Looking though my box of unbuilt kits I came 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> up with the 8 variations attached.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    <snip>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    For some reason Thunderbird didn't put the attachments in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
alphanumeric order, swapping #1 with the end shot. I hope everyone 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
understood my references to photo number.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    I also forgot to comment on the photo of the box ends. They are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
stacked, by photo number, from left to right, bottom to top.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Never lick a steak knife.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10688
						From: Graeme
						Date: 5/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Zamac rot question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    In message <gunku6+82dd@...>, the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
<the_plainsman@...> writes
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>Thanks for the additional information; I guess I should have qualified 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>that statement of mine to my post WW 2 experience with mostly Matchbox 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>and Corgi! I know that Hornby had problems, not though experience, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>through searching out explanations of the Zamac & Mazak "rot/pest" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>problems and finding one of the most detailed and clear explanations on 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>a Hornby collectors web site!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yes, you're correct - the problem seems to have disappeared by the time 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
production started again after WWII.  It is said that manufacturers 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
learned a lot when switching to war production, and carried that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
knowledge forward to toy production, once the war was over.  Pre war 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
British Trix trains are also known to have problems.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Graeme, Scotland
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10689
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Rick J, Chuck, Ray F.W. & All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    As a continuation of the list of information I found yesterday in the early Silver Streak ads in Model Railroader from 1948-1951, here are the dd boxcars (could not read the last digit of the Southern DD car), reefers and the rest of the line.  On the Green Bay & Western Reefer, the introductory ad says that the reefer color is green, yet the list says gray (were there two versions of this car/number?)  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Rick,  the WFEX reefers you were wondering about are confirmed, too!  I built this report on yesterday's spereadsheet, so it does not have information you contributed since then.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Again blue refers to information I have found in the ads, red where I believe it fits in to what was known.  And I have kept those five year's of magazines accessible for now, if anyone wants me to double check and add to or report more information visible in the photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    
59

Box Car, Double Door 40' DS
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
60

Southern
 
14825x
1/49 MR ad,p 52
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
61

301
Southern
Box Car Red
149703
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
62

302
D&RGW
Box Car Red
65530
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
63

303
GN (Billboard)
Caboose Red
3506
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
64

Reefer, 40'
 
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
65

Soo Line
 
URTX 5560
3/48 ad,p193MR
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
66

414
Burlington
 
 
4/48 ad,p 292
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
67

Rock Island
 
 
4/48 ad,p 292
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
68

403
Northern Pacific
Reefer Orange
92663
1/49 MR ad,p 52
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
69

404
SP/UP "Pacific Fruit Express"
Reefer Orange
 
4/48 ad,p 292
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
70

405
SP/UP "Pacific Fruit Express"
Reefer Orange
71117
new # 12/48 ad
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
71

407
C&NW (Northwestern)
Reefer Gray
1039
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
72

408
Green Bay & Western
Gray?,11/48 ad says Green
WRX 9227
new 11/48ad, p845
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
73

409
MDT (NYC)
White
22250
5/49 MR ad,p 70
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
74

 
410
Santa Fe, Super Chief
Reefer Orange
24375
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
75

410
Santa Fe, Grand Canyon
Reefer Orange
26079
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
76

Santa Fe, Grand Canyon
Reefer Orange
24082
10/49 MR ad,p63
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
77

411
ART (Wab/MoPac)
Reefer Yellow
22654, 22763
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
78

412
Swift
Caboose Red
7386
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
79

413
Oscar Meyer
Reefer Yellow
5003
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
80

414
Burlington- CB&Q (Zephyr)
Reefer Yellow
75210
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
81

415
C&NW (Mechanical Temp)
Yellow/Dk Green
3953
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
82

416
SP/UP "Pacific Fruit Express"
Reefer Orange
30127, 30130
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
83

 
417
Morrell
Reefer Yellow
9206
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
84

418
Pacific Fruit Express (Ice Service)
Reefer Orange
65005, 65009
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
85

419
C&NW
Reefer Gray
NWX 70552
3/49 MR ad,p 67
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
86

420
BAR, Maine Potatoes
White/Lt Blue
6535
8/51 MR ad,p 6
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
87

421
MDT (NYC)
White
22250
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
88

Western Fruit Express, (WP logo)
 
WFEX 62761
11/50 MR ad,p46
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
89

 
 
 
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
90

Gondola, 40' Hart
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
91

500
undec
Gray
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
92

 
501
NYC
Box Car Red
616225
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
93

502
NKP
Black
65320
1/49 MR ad,p 52
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
94

503
Southern Pacific
Box Car Red
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
95

504
MKT - Katy
Reefer Yellow
8670
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
96

 
505
Pacific Electric
Caboose Red
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
97

506
Northern Pacific
Black
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
98

 
 
 
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
99

Tank, Single Dome
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
100

Conoco
Silver
CONX 593
11/49 MR, p 6
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
101

601
General American Tank - GATX
Silver
1001
7/50 MR ad,p 75
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
102

Shell Chemical - SCMX
Silver
519
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
103

Texaco
Silver
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
104

 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
105

Box Car, 40' DS w/Truss Rod
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
106

 
702
Northern Pacific
Box Car Red
38572
6/50 MR ad
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
107

 
 
 
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
108

 
Reefer, 40' DS w/Truss Rod
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
109

 
700
undec
Reefer Orange
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
110

701
GN - Western Fruit Express
Reefer Yellow
WFEX 62781
6/50 MR ad
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
111

 
 
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
112

703
Colorado Southern
Reefer Orange
50053
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
113

                                                                                                                                                                                    (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10690
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jay,  Thanks for filling in some of the blanks, this is the only way we can complete these spreadsheets when everybody pitches in.  I figured if somebody dug deep enough they might come up with some of this missing information, but just as you remembered many of Silver Streaks early as, I also did -- while they advertised their kits, they often did not include the kit numbers so that leaves the collectors in the future up in the air (yeah, they never figured on collectors).  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I gather the stuff printed in blue is what you found advertised, whether already in the spreadsheet or not.  Good that you dug further to find ads that had some useful information.  I never could find any info about those early undec "cabeese."  That fills in that part nicely.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I already had the #201 UP box car listed, but I'm glad you came up with the kit numbers for #202 through #206; I see they were in the order that I thought I remembered seeing them as -- and I see you found the missing (#206) GN "See America First" box car, which is one that escaped me. The NP 38572 is the #701 NP Truss Rod box car that's already listed, but it's just worth finding these ads to doubley-verify the info.  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray F. W., Don D. & All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray, After reading your post below, I went back and looked at the Silver Streak spreadsheet and saw those missing numbers and realized that the early Silver Streak ads in Model Railroader contained some of the missing information.  So earlier this evening, I brought out my 1948-1951 issues and made a survey.  I entered the data I found in a copy of your spreadsheet, with missing information I found highlighted in blue type, with questions if this was the right manufactuer's number in red.  Most of Silver Streak's ads have no mfg. numbers, but I copied the car numbers from the photos, if legible.  To keep this workable, I am just including the caboose and boxcar listings; reefers and others to follow.  If you want me to double check anything, lettering, heralds in the photos, do not hesitate to ask! I still have the magazines out!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ps. all: I am looking for SS's Northeast Caboose kit # 105, assembled or just the sides! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Cat. # Road Name Car Color Car Number   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak     From 1946? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Caboose Standard       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 101 29' 3 window, offset cupola unlettered, caboose red   8/49 MR ad. p 520 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 102 24' 2 window, centered cupola unlettered, caboose red   8/49 MR ad. p 520 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 103 28' 4 window, centered cupola unlettered, caboose red   8/49 MR ad. p 520 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 104 30' 4 window, offset cupola unlettered, caboose red   8/49 MR ad. p 520 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 105 Reading Steel "Northeast Type" injection molded red sides 10/50 MR ad, p 520 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 106 Free Lance Bobber, 2 window, ctr cupola unlettered, caboose red   10/50 MR ad, p 520 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   MP, 30' 4 window, offset cupola, not drovers   2145 12/51 MR ad, p 31 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 110 Southern Pacific, 30' Std. Caboose Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 111 UP, 30' Std. Reefer Yellow 301   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 112 B&O 28' Caboose Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 113 GN 24' Caboose Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 115 SP "Piggy Back" 30' Silver 2183   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 116 Southern Pacific, Bay Window Tuscan Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 117 undec, 30' Bay Window Tuscan Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 118 Pacific Electric (no Cupola) Caboose Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 119 Unlettered 34' (no Cupola) Caboose Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Caboose, Truss Rod, 30'       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 120 ERIE Caboose Red 04956   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 121 undec Caboose Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Caboose, Drover & Comb       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 107 MP, 32' Box Car Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 108 undec, 34' Reefer Yellow See listing above # 106 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Caboose, 4-Wheel Wood Bobber       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   undec Caboose Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>           
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Box Car, 40' DS       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 201 Union Pacific Box Car Red 68142, 71991 2/48 MR ad,p 78 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 202 NKP (NYC&StL)   23246 2/48 MR ad,p 78 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 203 SL-SW (Cotton Belt)     2/48 MR ad,p 78 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 204 Southern       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 205 Wabash Box Car Red 78943 2/48 MR ad,p 78 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 206 GN "See America First"   24560 2/48 MR ad,p 78 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 207 CoG Box Car Red 40581, 40584 #81, 7/49 ad,p 7 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 208 EJ&E Dark Green  60357 new 8/50 MR ad 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 209 Savanna & Atlanta Box Car Red 8073   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 210 M&StL Light Green 50468   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 211 C&O Box Car Red 2570   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 212 Minnesota Mining Box Car Red 1043   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 213 SLSF - Frisco Box Car Red 132053, 126053   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 214 RI "Rocket Freight" Box Car Red 69852   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 215 D&RGW "Cookie Box" Reefer White 60007   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 216 M&StL - Billboard Caboose Red 54652   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 217 GN Box Car Red 73232, 23732   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 218 GN Box Car Red 52069   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   GN   26247 11/50 MR ad,p46 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 219 Pacific Electric Box Car Red 2377   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 220 MKT "Katy" Reefer Yellow 170198   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   MKT "Katy"   170199 2/48 MR ad,p 78 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   NP   38572 11/50 MR ad,p46 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Box Car, Double Door 40' DS       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Southern   14825 1/49 MR ad,p 52 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 301 Southern Box Car Red 149703   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 302 D&RGW Box Car Red 65530   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 303 GN (Billboard) Caboose Red 3506   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> # # #
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 7:30:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don, Thanks for making me look deeper into this subject -- which I probably should have done long ago. As you'll note, the Silver Streak spread-page that Chuck H. uploaded to the files last year from the information I supplied him does not have the original Silver Streak 40' box car kits # 202 through # 206 (five kits/roadnames) , as I don't have them and hadn't research it enough to find them, when I thought I exhausted the source material.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> With your addition, I was intent on getting to the bottom of this; your Wabash 40' wood-sheathed box car IS an original Silver Streak, I would think produced before George Menzies bought them out. I find it as one of the "missing" kit numbers for original Silver Streak, in a 1950 catalog "Ma" Webster's, where I never thought of looking before this. I suspect Menzies never continued to carry this kit as I don't find it being offered after that time in any catalog. Four of these five previously missing kits, to be included in Silver Streak's 40' box car listing are; NKP (NYC&StL), SL-SW (Cotton Belt), Southern and Wabash -- not necessarily in that order. The fifth missing kit still eludes me. I don't have the kit numbers for these four cars though, but they fit within the #202 -- #206 numbering order. Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > No, the Wabash car is definitely an early 40' single door. I know it's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > early, it was in a box of other stuff from the late 40's, early 50's, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > even had Kadee "K" series mechanicals on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The only Walthers era Silverstreaks I have are the Westcott & Winks reefer 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > and the GB&W reefer. All the rest are at the newest 1960 or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > don.dellmann@ ...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10691
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Rick,  Thanks for posting those pics of the boxes, they sure bring back memories.  I don't know if you were ever a member of the H0SC&H-SIG, but this is exactly the way we covered any manufacturer when we wrote them up, first by giving as complete a history on them as we could find, then, listing and briefly describing every box they used  in chronological order.  The Greenberg Guides were done in much the same way.  There are a number of other boxes used by Silver Streak kits over the years, but without taking time to research the era's of their use I couldn't tell you their order off the top of my head.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks too, for your help in supplying us with these numbers.  Every one made known is one less mystery  to have to be concerned about.  In checking my notes on the #929-701 GN/WFEX Truss Rod Reefer, I find the car number to be 62763 as per my Walthers kit.  Could be that 62761 is more common, even though when multiple numbers were used, Silver Streak and the successors usually used two more widely-spread ones; I guess there's no rhyme or reason with the way they numbered them.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I hadn't gone into Ye Olde Huff N Puff, mainly as they're not that old to be collected by most.  This shouldn't stop anyone who's missing one of the early Silver Streak's to buy and build one if they want to include it in a cut of similar cars being operated; for example, the SDRF Series of reefers that were just discussed. Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     With all of the discussion of the changing ownership of Silver 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Streak over the years, I thought that some photos of the changing boxes 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> might be of interest too. Looking though my box of unbuilt kits I came 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> up with the 8 variations attached.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Photos 1 and 4 both refer to the Silver Streak Corporation of Los 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Angeles.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Photos 2 and 3 just say The Silver Streak Line without any reference 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> on the boxes to the manufacturer or location.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     The box in photo 5 is the first to reference Pacific HO on the box, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> without a location, but just below the red circle on the left side of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the box top you can see that it also says A Tru-Scale Quality Product.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Photo 6 is nearly identical but Pacific HO has been replaced with 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Tru-Scale and San Dimas on both the top and side.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Photo 7 is again almost identical to the last one, except that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Walthers and Milwaukee replace Tru-Scale and San Dimas. It's not very 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> apparent in these photos, but the 2 Tru-Scale boxes are green while the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> nearly identical Walthers version is yellow.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Finally in photo 8 is the later Walthers Silver Streak box. I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> several kits that are in boxes like this one, but when you look at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> direction the Walthers name has had a Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff sticker glued 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> over it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I can provide some details 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of when these different boxes were in use, at least the earlier ones.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     In looking through my kits I also found some additional information 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> on reporting marks not shown in the spreadsheet as it currently exists:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> #201  UP  boxcar  I have car sides with number 68151.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> #214  RI  boxcar  I have car sides with number 62083.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> #405  PFE  reefer  I have car sides with number 71779.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-S403  NP  reefer  I have car sides with number 93805.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-S701  WFE  reefer  I have 3 of these with number 62761. Wondering if 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the 62763 listed is a typo?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 929-424  ATSF, El Capitan  reefer  I have car sides numbered 24750.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     I can provide photos of these sides for verification if necessary.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     I also have some Silver Streak from Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff in the YOHNP 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> boxes, only identified as SS by the sticker on the end. Since the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> current listing doesn't go into these I've left them off of this discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "The big innovation of [Windows] XP is that it has a backdoor that sucks 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> out all your proprietary information. By the way...it still runs all 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> your favorite viruses."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     -Sun Microsystems CEO Scott McNeally
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10692
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jay,  Okay, I think I have it now, with stuff in blue being what you found, but not necessarily applicable as new material here.  Would only like to suggest that the Western Fruit Express WFEX (WP logo) 62761 appears to be the same Kit #701 Truss Rod Reefer that Rick has (I have 62763 in this kit).  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
On the #408 Green Bay & Western reefer (#9227), I don't know if there were two versions with this same number.  Perhaps there was, if the early (original) Silver Streak you saw advertised in green had the same number -- or maybe it was a different number.  All's I can tell you is that my GB&W reefer is gray, and all of the Walthers catalogs I've seen carrying it describe it as gray.  Perhaps Menzies changed the color from green to gray.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The NP 38572 was covered before -- it's the #702 Truss Rod box car.  In your listing of GN - Western Fruit Express Yellow WFEX 62781 6/50 MR ad, are you saying that you found yet another car number besides 62761 and 62763?  That IS interesting; thanks for digging this out. I see you've dug out the long-missing Conoco Tank Car number, nice going.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Rick J, Chuck, Ray F.W. & All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> As a continuation of the list of information I found yesterday in the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> early Silver Streak ads in Model Railroader from 1948-1951, here are the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> dd boxcars (could not read the last digit of the Southern DD car),
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> reefers and the rest of the line.  On the Green Bay & Western Reefer,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the introductory ad says that the reefer color is green, yet the list
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> says gray (were there two versions of this car/number?)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Rick,  the WFEX reefers you were wondering about are confirmed, too!  I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> built this report on yesterday's spereadsheet, so it does not have
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> information you contributed since then.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Again blue refers to information I have found in the ads, red where I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> believe it fits in to what was known.  And I have kept those five year's
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of magazines accessible for now, if anyone wants me to double check and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> add to or report more information visible in the photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 59  Box Car, Double Door 40' DS        60  Southern   14825x 1/49 MR
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ad,p 52  61  301 Southern Box Car Red 149703    62  302 D&RGW Box Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Red 65530    63  303 GN (Billboard) Caboose Red 3506    64  Reefer, 40'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 65  Soo Line   URTX 5560 3/48 ad,p193MR  66  414 Burlington     4/48
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ad,p 292  67  Rock Island     4/48 ad,p 292  68  403 Northern Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Reefer Orange 92663 1/49 MR ad,p 52  69  404 SP/UP "Pacific Fruit
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Express" Reefer Orange   4/48 ad,p 292  70  405 SP/UP "Pacific Fruit
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Express" Reefer Orange 71117 new # 12/48 ad  71  407 C&NW (Northwestern)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Reefer Gray 1039    72  408 Green Bay & Western Gray?,11/48 ad says
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Green WRX 9227 new 11/48ad, p845  73  409 MDT (NYC) White 22250 5/49 MR
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ad,p 70  74    410 Santa Fe, Super Chief Reefer Orange 24375    75  410
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Santa Fe, Grand Canyon Reefer Orange 26079    76  Santa Fe, Grand Canyon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Reefer Orange 24082 10/49 MR ad,p63  77  411 ART (Wab/MoPac) Reefer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yellow 22654, 22763    78  412 Swift Caboose Red 7386    79  413 Oscar
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Meyer Reefer Yellow 5003    80  414 Burlington- CB&Q (Zephyr) Reefer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yellow 75210    81  415 C&NW (Mechanical Temp) Yellow/Dk Green 3953   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 82  416 SP/UP "Pacific Fruit Express" Reefer Orange 30127, 30130    83
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 417 Morrell Reefer Yellow 9206    84  418 Pacific Fruit Express (Ice
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Service) Reefer Orange 65005, 65009    85  419 C&NW Reefer Gray NWX
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 70552 3/49 MR ad,p 67  86  420 BAR, Maine Potatoes White/Lt Blue 6535
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 8/51 MR ad,p 6  87  421 MDT (NYC) White 22250    88  Western Fruit
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Express, (WP logo)   WFEX 62761 11/50 MR ad,p46  89               90 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gondola, 40' Hart        91  500 undec Gray      92    501 NYC Box Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Red 616225    93  502 NKP Black 65320 1/49 MR ad,p 52  94  503 Southern
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Pacific Box Car Red      95  504 MKT - Katy Reefer Yellow 8670    96   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 505 Pacific Electric Caboose Red      97  506 Northern Pacific Black
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 98               99  Tank, Single Dome        100  Conoco Silver CONX
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 593 11/49 MR, p 6  101  601 General American Tank - GATX Silver 1001
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 7/50 MR ad,p 75  102  Shell Chemical - SCMX Silver 519    103  Texaco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Silver      104         105  Box Car, 40' DS w/Truss Rod        106   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 702 Northern Pacific Box Car Red 38572 6/50 MR ad  107               108
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Reefer, 40' DS w/Truss Rod        109    700 undec Reefer Orange     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 110  701 GN - Western Fruit Express Reefer Yellow WFEX 62781 6/50 MR ad 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 111           112  703 Colorado Southern Reefer Orange 50053    113
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> # # #
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > With all of the discussion of the changing ownership of Silver
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Streak over the years, I thought that some photos of the changing
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > might be of interest too. Looking though my box of unbuilt kits I came
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > up with the 8 variations attached.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Photos 1 and 4 both refer to the Silver Streak Corporation of Los
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Angeles.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Photos 2 and 3 just say The Silver Streak Line without any reference
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > on the boxes to the manufacturer or location.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The box in photo 5 is the first to reference Pacific HO on the box,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > without a location, but just below the red circle on the left side of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the box top you can see that it also says A Tru-Scale Quality Product.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Photo 6 is nearly identical but Pacific HO has bee replaced with
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Tru-Scale and San Dimas on both the top and side.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Photo 7 is again almost identical to the last one, except that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Walthers and Milwaukee replace Tru-Scale and San Dimas. It's not very
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > apparent in these photos, but the 2 Tru-Scale boxes are green while
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > nearly identical Walthers version is yellow.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Finally in photo 8 is the later Walthers Silver Streak box. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > several kits that are in boxes like this one, but when you look at the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > direction the Walthers name has had a Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff sticker
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> glued
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > over it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I can provide some details
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > of when these different boxes were in use, at least the earlier ones.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > In looking through my kits I also found some additional information
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > on reporting marks not shown in the spreadsheet as it currently
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> exists:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > #201 UP boxcar I have car sides with number 68151.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > #214 RI boxcar I have car sides with number 62083.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > #405 PFE reefer I have car sides with number 71779.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S403 NP reefer I have car sides with number 93805.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-S701 WFE reefer I have 3 of these with number 62761. Wondering if
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the 62763 listed is a typo?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 929-424 ATSF, El Capitan reefer I have car sides numbered 24750.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I can provide photos of these sides for verification if necessary.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I also have some Silver Streak from Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff in the YOHNP
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > boxes, only identified as SS by the sticker on the end. Since the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > current listing doesn't go into these I've left them off of this
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > "The big innovation of [Windows] XP is that it has a backdoor that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> sucks
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > out all your proprietary information. By the way...it still runs all
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > your favorite viruses."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > -Sun Microsystems CEO Scott McNeally
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10693
						From: erieberk
						Date: 5/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck,  Please add the reporting number -- X204 -- to the S113 GN Standard Caboose, I can confirm that..  This same number (X204) was also used by Walthers for this road name.  Many thanks,  Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks for the updates, they have been added to the file.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of Jay Wanczyk
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 9:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray F. W., Don D. & All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray, After reading your post below, I went back and looked at the Silver
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Streak spreadsheet and saw those missing numbers and realized that the early
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Silver Streak ads in Model Railroader contained some of the missing
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> information.  So earlier this evening, I brought out my 1948-1951 issues and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> made a survey.  I entered the data I found in a copy of your spreadsheet,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> with missing information I found highlighted in blue type, with questions if
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> this was the right manufactuer's number in red.  Most of Silver Streak's ads
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have no mfg. numbers, but I copied the car numbers from the photos, if
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> legible.  To keep this workable, I am just including the caboose and boxcar
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> listings; reefers and others to follow.  If you want me to double check
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> anything, lettering, heralds in the photos, do not hesitate to ask! I still
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have the magazines out!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ps. all: I am looking for SS's Northeast Caboose kit # 105, assembled or
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> just the sides! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Cat. #
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Road Name
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Car Color
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Car Number
                                                                                                                                                                                    
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>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From 1946?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10694
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak List; Cliff Line Bobbers was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ray F.W., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Silver Streak List:   It was fun when the "missing cabeese" showed up, one of the few times Prendergast used kit numbers in his ads! I never saw any mention of a brochure or catalog, either.  Those missing boxcar blue listings still need to be confirmed with kits, but by listing them in the same order as illustrated in the ads, they fell into place, so the order is good until confirmed (or disproved!). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I went through the 1952 and 1953 MR's a few hours ago, there were no Silver Streak ads for those two years covering the period of the financial failure and liquidation sale of the firm to Athearn.  The October and November, 1953 ads were at the begining of Athearn's ownership.  I was surprised to see what Athearn's new legal name of Silver Streak C was:  Silver Streak Corp. (Does not appear in the ads, but from the Advertising Index, where Kalmbach often listed corporate or owner's billing names instead of trade names.)   
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I suppose Athearn needed to differentiate the corporate name from the original 1946-1952/1953 Pacific HO Co. with its Silver Streak product line, and kept it a seperate firm, just taking the F-unit dies for his own. Anyway, interesting that when Menzies bought it from Athearn years later, he eventually went back to having Pacific HO in the name. The story is a bit more clear, and the boxes Rick showed us today tell much of it, too, including the Tru-Scale production by agreement or license. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The Cliff Line Bobbers:  BTW, there are two small caboose models that show up occasionally that could be mistaken as being of Silver Streak production.   I know I did wonder about one's origins when I first saw the kit!  During that late 1952, early 1953 period, "The Cliff Line" of North Hollywood, CA,  sold a 24'6" cupola-less four wheel bobber kit that used Silver Streak cast ends, end platforms and windows; it was reviewed in the August 1952 Trade Topics (MR).  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    In January and February of 1953, The Cliff Line (Cliff Roth?) adverised a similar sized bobber, but with cast Silver Streak cupola and different window arrangement.  Both models rode on a modified Red Ball Taylor T-4 style  four wheel  (traction-type) truck.  Interestingly, the second caboose (and a Cliff Line four wheel water tank car) was also advertised by Robico, Universal City, CA in the same February, 1953 issue of MR.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Despite using similar parts, these two cabooses produced by The Cliff Line are clearly different from the Walthers Silver Streak Bobbers produced over two decades later.  When I have seen them on eBay they usually go above my range!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jay, Thanks for filling in some of the blanks, this is the only way we can complete these spreadsheets when everybody pitches in. I figured if somebody dug deep enough they might come up with some of this missing information, but just as you remembered many of Silver Streaks early as, I also did -- while they advertised their kits, they often did not include the kit numbers so that leaves the collectors in the future up in the air (yeah, they never figured on collectors). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I gather the stuff printed in blue is what you found advertised, whether already in the spreadsheet or not. Good that you dug further to find ads that had some useful information. I never could find any info about those early undec "cabeese." That fills in that part nicely. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > I already had the #201 UP box car listed, but I'm glad you came up with the kit numbers for #202 through #206; I see they were in the order that I thought I remembered seeing them as -- and I see you found the missing (#206) GN "See America First" box car, which is one that escaped me. The NP 38572 is the #701 NP Truss Rod box car that's already listed, but it's just worth finding these ads to doubley-verify the info. Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Ray F. W., Don D. & All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Ray, After reading your post below, I went back and looked at the Silver Streak spreadsheet and saw those missing numbers and realized that the early Silver Streak ads in Model Railroader contained some of the missing information.  So earlier this evening, I brought out my 1948-1951 issues and made a survey.  I entered the data I found in a copy of your spreadsheet, with missing information I found highlighted in blue type, with questions if this was the right manufactuer's number in red.  Most of Silver Streak's ads have no mfg. numbers, but I copied the car numbers from the photos, if legible.  To keep this workable, I am just including the caboose and boxcar listings; reefers and others to follow.  If you want me to double check anything, lettering, heralds in the photos, do not hesitate to ask! I still have the magazines out!
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Ps. all: I am looking for SS's Northeast Caboose kit # 105, assembled or just the sides! 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Cat. # Road Name Car Color Car Number   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >   Pacific HO -- Original Silver Streak     From 1946? 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >           
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Caboose Standard       
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >           
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 101 29' 3 window, offset cupola unlettered, caboose red   8/49 MR ad. p 520 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 102 24' 2 window, centered cupola unlettered, caboose red   8/49 MR ad. p 520 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 103 28' 4 window, centered cupola unlettered, caboose red   8/49 MR ad. p 520 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 104 30' 4 window, offset cupola unlettered, caboose red   8/49 MR ad. p 520 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 105 Reading Steel "Northeast Type" injection molded red sides 10/50 MR ad, p 520 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 106 Free Lance Bobber, 2 window, ctr cupola unlettered, caboose red   10/50 MR ad, p 520 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >           
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >           
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >   MP, 30' 4 window, offset cupola, not drovers   2145 12/51 MR ad, p 31 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 110 Southern Pacific, 30' Std. Caboose Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 111 UP, 30' Std. Reefer Yellow 301   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 112 B&O 28' Caboose Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 113 GN 24' Caboose Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 115 SP "Piggy Back" 30' Silver 2183   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 116 Southern Pacific, Bay Window Tuscan Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 117 undec, 30' Bay Window Tuscan Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 118 Pacific Electric (no Cupola) Caboose Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 119 Unlettered 34' (no Cupola) Caboose Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >           
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Caboose, Truss Rod, 30'       
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 120 ERIE Caboose Red 04956   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 121 undec Caboose Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >           
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Caboose, Drover & Comb       
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 107 MP, 32' Box Car Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 108 undec, 34' Reefer Yellow See listing above # 106 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >           
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Caboose, 4-Wheel Wood Bobber       
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >   undec Caboose Red     
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >           
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Box Car, 40' DS       
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 201 Union Pacific Box Car Red 68142, 71991 2/48 MR ad,p 78 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 202 NKP (NYC&StL)   23246 2/48 MR ad,p 78 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 203 SL-SW (Cotton Belt)     2/48 MR ad,p 78 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 204 Southern       
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 205 Wabash Box Car Red 78943 2/48 MR ad,p 78 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 206 GN "See America First"   24560 2/48 MR ad,p 78 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 207 CoG Box Car Red 40581, 40584 #81, 7/49 ad,p 7 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 208 EJ&E Dark Green 60357 new 8/50 MR ad 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 209 Savanna & Atlanta Box Car Red 8073   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 210 M&StL Light Green 50468   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 211 C&O Box Car Red 2570   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 212 Minnesota Mining Box Car Red 1043   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 213 SLSF - Frisco Box Car Red 132053, 126053   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 214 RI "Rocket Freight" Box Car Red 69852   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 215 D&RGW "Cookie Box" Reefer White 60007   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 216 M&StL - Billboard Caboose Red 54652   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 217 GN Box Car Red 73232, 23732   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 218 GN Box Car Red 52069   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >   GN   26247 11/50 MR ad,p46 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 219 Pacific Electric Box Car Red 2377   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 220 MKT "Katy" Reefer Yellow 170198   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >   MKT "Katy"   170199 2/48 MR ad,p 78 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >   NP   38572 11/50 MR ad,p46 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Box Car, Double Door 40' DS       
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >   Southern   14825 1/49 MR ad,p 52 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 301 Southern Box Car Red 149703   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 302 D&RGW Box Car Red 65530   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 303 GN (Billboard) Caboose Red 3506   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > # # #
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > From: erieberk erieberk@
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 7:30:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > Don, Thanks for making me look deeper into this subject -- which I probably should have done long ago. As you'll note, the Silver Streak spread-page that Chuck H. uploaded to the files last year from the information I supplied him does not have the original Silver Streak 40' box car kits # 202 through # 206 (five kits/roadnames) , as I don't have them and hadn't research it enough to find them, when I thought I exhausted the source material.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > With your addition, I was intent on getting to the bottom of this; your Wabash 40' wood-sheathed box car IS an original Silver Streak, I would think produced before George Menzies bought them out. I find it as one of the "missing" kit numbers for original Silver Streak, in a 1950 catalog "Ma" Webster's, where I never thought of looking before this. I suspect Menzies never continued to carry this kit as I don't find it being offered after that time in any catalog. Four of these five previously missing kits, to be included in Silver Streak's 40' box car listing are; NKP (NYC&StL), SL-SW (Cotton Belt), Southern and Wabash -- not necessarily in that order. The fifth missing kit still eludes me. I don't have the kit numbers for these four cars though, but they fit within the #202 -- #206 numbering order. Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > No, the Wabash car is definitely an early 40' single door. I know it's 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > early, it was in a box of other stuff from the late 40's, early 50's, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > even had Kadee "K" series mechanicals on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > The only Walthers era Silverstreaks I have are the Westcott & Winks reefer 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > and the GB&W reefer. All the rest are at the newest 1960 or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > don.dellmann@ ...
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10695
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ray F. W.,  I will go back and double check those items after a break, just to confirm, to be clear. I sent you another message while you were writing yours!   W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Jay,  Okay, I think I have it now, with stuff in blue being what you found, but not necessarily applicable as new material here.  Would only like to suggest that the Western Fruit Express WFEX (WP logo) 62761 appears to be the same Kit #701 Truss Rod Reefer that Rick has (I have 62763 in this kit).  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> On the #408 Green Bay & Western reefer (#9227), I don't know if there were two versions with this same number.  Perhaps there was, if the early (original) Silver Streak you saw advertised in green had the same number -- or maybe it was a different number.  All's I can tell you is that my GB&W reefer is gray, and all of the Walthers catalogs I've seen carrying it describe it as gray.  Perhaps Menzies changed the color from green to gray.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The NP 38572 was covered before -- it's the #702 Truss Rod box car.  In your listing of GN - Western Fruit Express Yellow WFEX 62781 6/50 MR ad, are you saying that you found yet another car number besides 62761 and 62763?  That IS interesting; thanks for digging this out. I see you've dug out the long-missing Conoco Tank Car number, nice going.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Rick J, Chuck, Ray F.W. & All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > As a continuation of the list of information I found yesterday in the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > early Silver Streak ads in Model Railroader from 1948-1951, here are the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > dd boxcars (could not read the last digit of the Southern DD car),
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > reefers and the rest of the line.  On the Green Bay & Western Reefer,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the introductory ad says that the reefer color is green, yet the list
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > says gray (were there two versions of this car/number?)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Rick,  the WFEX reefers you were wondering about are confirmed, too!  I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > built this report on yesterday's spereadsheet, so it does not have
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > information you contributed since then.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Again blue refers to information I have found in the ads, red where I
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > believe it fits in to what was known.  And I have kept those five year's
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > of magazines accessible for now, if anyone wants me to double check and
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > add to or report more information visible in the photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 59  Box Car, Double Door 40' DS        60  Southern   14825x 1/49 MR
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ad,p 52  61  301 Southern Box Car Red 149703    62  302 D&RGW Box Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Red 65530    63  303 GN (Billboard) Caboose Red 3506    64  Reefer, 40'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 65  Soo Line   URTX 5560 3/48 ad,p193MR  66  414 Burlington     4/48
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ad,p 292  67  Rock Island     4/48 ad,p 292  68  403 Northern Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Reefer Orange 92663 1/49 MR ad,p 52  69  404 SP/UP "Pacific Fruit
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Express" Reefer Orange   4/48 ad,p 292  70  405 SP/UP "Pacific Fruit
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Express" Reefer Orange 71117 new # 12/48 ad  71  407 C&NW (Northwestern)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Reefer Gray 1039    72  408 Green Bay & Western Gray?,11/48 ad says
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Green WRX 9227 new 11/48ad, p845  73  409 MDT (NYC) White 22250 5/49 MR
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ad,p 70  74    410 Santa Fe, Super Chief Reefer Orange 24375    75  410
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Santa Fe, Grand Canyon Reefer Orange 26079    76  Santa Fe, Grand Canyon
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Reefer Orange 24082 10/49 MR ad,p63  77  411 ART (Wab/MoPac) Reefer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Yellow 22654, 22763    78  412 Swift Caboose Red 7386    79  413 Oscar
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Meyer Reefer Yellow 5003    80  414 Burlington- CB&Q (Zephyr) Reefer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Yellow 75210    81  415 C&NW (Mechanical Temp) Yellow/Dk Green 3953   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 82  416 SP/UP "Pacific Fruit Express" Reefer Orange 30127, 30130    83
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 417 Morrell Reefer Yellow 9206    84  418 Pacific Fruit Express (Ice
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Service) Reefer Orange 65005, 65009    85  419 C&NW Reefer Gray NWX
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 70552 3/49 MR ad,p 67  86  420 BAR, Maine Potatoes White/Lt Blue 6535
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 8/51 MR ad,p 6  87  421 MDT (NYC) White 22250    88  Western Fruit
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Express, (WP logo)   WFEX 62761 11/50 MR ad,p46  89               90 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Gondola, 40' Hart        91  500 undec Gray      92    501 NYC Box Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Red 616225    93  502 NKP Black 65320 1/49 MR ad,p 52  94  503 Southern
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Pacific Box Car Red      95  504 MKT - Katy Reefer Yellow 8670    96   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 505 Pacific Electric Caboose Red      97  506 Northern Pacific Black
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 98               99  Tank, Single Dome        100  Conoco Silver CONX
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 593 11/49 MR, p 6  101  601 General American Tank - GATX Silver 1001
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 7/50 MR ad,p 75  102  Shell Chemical - SCMX Silver 519    103  Texaco
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Silver      104         105  Box Car, 40' DS w/Truss Rod        106   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 702 Northern Pacific Box Car Red 38572 6/50 MR ad  107               108
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Reefer, 40' DS w/Truss Rod        109    700 undec Reefer Orange     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 110  701 GN - Western Fruit Express Reefer Yellow WFEX 62781 6/50 MR ad 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 111           112  703 Colorado Southern Reefer Orange 50053    113
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > # # #
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > With all of the discussion of the changing ownership of Silver
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Streak over the years, I thought that some photos of the changing
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > boxes
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > might be of interest too. Looking though my box of unbuilt kits I came
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > up with the 8 variations attached.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Photos 1 and 4 both refer to the Silver Streak Corporation of Los
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Angeles.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Photos 2 and 3 just say The Silver Streak Line without any reference
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > on the boxes to the manufacturer or location.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > The box in photo 5 is the first to reference Pacific HO on the box,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > without a location, but just below the red circle on the left side of
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > the box top you can see that it also says A Tru-Scale Quality Product.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Photo 6 is nearly identical but Pacific HO has bee replaced with
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Tru-Scale and San Dimas on both the top and side.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Photo 7 is again almost identical to the last one, except that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Walthers and Milwaukee replace Tru-Scale and San Dimas. It's not very
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > apparent in these photos, but the 2 Tru-Scale boxes are green while
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > nearly identical Walthers version is yellow.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Finally in photo 8 is the later Walthers Silver Streak box. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > several kits that are in boxes like this one, but when you look at the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > direction the Walthers name has had a Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff sticker
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > glued
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > over it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I can provide some details
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > of when these different boxes were in use, at least the earlier ones.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > In looking through my kits I also found some additional information
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > on reporting marks not shown in the spreadsheet as it currently
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > exists:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > #201 UP boxcar I have car sides with number 68151.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > #214 RI boxcar I have car sides with number 62083.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > #405 PFE reefer I have car sides with number 71779.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 929-S403 NP reefer I have car sides with number 93805.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 929-S701 WFE reefer I have 3 of these with number 62761. Wondering if
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > the 62763 listed is a typo?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 929-424 ATSF, El Capitan reefer I have car sides numbered 24750.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I can provide photos of these sides for verification if necessary.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I also have some Silver Streak from Ye Olde Huff-N-Puff in the YOHNP
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > boxes, only identified as SS by the sticker on the end. Since the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > current listing doesn't go into these I've left them off of this
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > --
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > "The big innovation of [Windows] XP is that it has a backdoor that
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > sucks
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > out all your proprietary information. By the way...it still runs all
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > your favorite viruses."
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > -Sun Microsystems CEO Scott McNeally
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10696
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Zamac rot question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I have an older Rivarossi Dockside with the one-piece Zamac boiler weight and steamchest, and it had expanded enough that it lifted the shell and pulled in the rear of the plastic frame under the pressure. I filled all the crevices in the casting with CA, then puttied the larger fissures and filed the top down until the shell rested level again. No problems since.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
It would be interesting to know how long the reaction continues, but examples I've come across seem to be inert now. I guess the amount of impurities in the metal determine whether it's just going to fracture a bit, or disintegrate entirely. I've heard those horror stories of guys who had their prized scale Lionel Hudsons literally crumble in front of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It would seem to me that a part that is over 40 years old has "rotted" as much as it is going to do.  Therefore, if I have a part that is cracked, but not falling apart, I could repair or glue the part together and it should be fine.  I have a couple parts I have glued together with CA and primed, and so far, I have not seen any continued rot.  I am asking as a question, to those with more experience than I, if this logic makes since>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10697
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Varney celluloid Passenger
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don D, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Since its a little quiet on the 
site I thought I'd send this Varney celluloid sided, pre painted passenger car 
set. I know Don D likes this type of car.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        There are 8 cars in the set 
(four now, four later).This is the post war set made between 1946-1949. 
They are painted in basically NYC colors but had no road name on them. They 
featured heavy acetate sides, printed on clear sheets. Construction was exactly 
the same as the pre war PA-1 to PA-8 series. Basswood floor, roof and end 
blocks. Minimal frame and underbody detail. These are full-scale 
length.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       The trucks on these are not what 
originally came with the cars. Since Varney made no appropriate passenger trucks 
at the time they had included the 4 wheel roller bearing from the pre war 
"Shorty"passenger car kits. I don't know what brand of trucks are on these but 
look like Athearn to me. They are metal side frames with brass wheels. The 
couplers on this set are large loop by Mantua ( ? ).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               Picture 
1    PA-1     Baggage Express
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               Picture 
2    PA-2     Baggage-Mail
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               Picture 
3    PA-3     Baggage-Coach 
Combine
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               Picture 
4    PA-4      Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Picture 5    Close up of truck
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               Other 4 cars 
later.    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10698
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney celluloid Passenger
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H., Don D., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hi Jim,  They make a nice set.  Varney's large 1948 catalog, notes that as "the colors and combinations are unlimited, and unless the cars are assigned to a regular run, the Pullman Company has adopted the two-tone gray with silver striping as their standard color."  The next sentence says that to keep prices low, Varney has standardized on this gray color too. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
As for the EMD diesel trucks, Varney skirted around the issue of not having the proper trucks by illustrating the Varney EMD Blomberg F-3 truck and calling them "Varney super-detailed streamliner trucks." But the next line gives the true part number and description, " No. 1934 "Dummy" Diesel trucks, 36" wheels, per pair, $2.00"  I only have one, the Rio Ojinaga which would be in your next group, and it was built with the EMD F-3 Dummy Diesel trucks as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don D, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Since its a little quiet on the site I thought I'd send this Varney celluloid sided, pre painted passenger car set. I know Don D likes this type of car.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     There are 8 cars in the set (four now, four later).This is the post war set made between 1946-1949. They are painted in basically NYC colors but had no road name on them. They featured heavy acetate sides, printed on clear sheets. Construction was exactly the same as the pre war PA-1 to PA-8 series. Basswood floor, roof and end blocks. Minimal frame and underbody detail. These are full-scale length.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    The trucks on these are not what originally came with the cars. Since Varney made no appropriate passenger trucks at the time they had included the 4 wheel roller bearing from the pre war "Shorty"passenger car kits. I don't know what brand of trucks are on these but look like Athearn to me. They are metal side frames with brass wheels. The couplers on this set are large loop by Mantua ( ? ).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            Picture 1    PA-1     Baggage Express
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            Picture 2    PA-2     Baggage-Mail
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            Picture 3    PA-3     Baggage-Coach Combine
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            Picture 4    PA-4      Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Picture 5    Close up of truck
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            Other 4 cars later.    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10699
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 5/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney celluloid Passenger [5 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
The truck in the close up looks like a Varney F3 truck to me and
they are shown on the coach only.  The other trucks look like Mantua
streamline talgo coupler arm trucks to me,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
are they talgo trucks with the coupler on a metal arm?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
===========================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don D, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        Since its a little quiet on the
site I thought I'd send this Varney celluloid sided, pre painted
passenger car set. I know Don D likes this type of car.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        There are 8 cars in the set
(four now, four later).This is the post war set made between 1946-1949.
They are painted in basically NYC colors but had no road name on them.
They featured heavy acetate sides, printed on clear sheets.
Construction was exactly the same as the pre war PA-1 to PA-8 series.
Basswood floor, roof and end blocks. Minimal frame and underbody
detail. These are full-scale length.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       The trucks on these are not what
originally came with the cars. Since Varney made no appropriate
passenger trucks at the time they had included the 4 wheel roller
bearing from the pre war "Shorty"passenger car kits. I don't know what
brand of trucks are on these but look like Athearn to me. They are
metal side frames with brass wheels. The couplers on this set are large
loop by Mantua ( ? ).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               Picture 1    PA-1    
Baggage Express
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               Picture 2    PA-2    
Baggage-Mail
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               Picture 3    PA-3    
Baggage-Coach Combine
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               Picture 4    PA-4     
Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Picture 5    Close up of
truck
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               Other 4 cars later.    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10700
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Varney Celluloid Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don D, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          These are pictures 
of the other 4 cars from the 8 car set of  celluloid sided, pre painted 
streamlined passenger cars in NYC type colors. (I have two of the pictures out 
of order.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      Picture 1     
PA-5    Diner
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      Picture 2     
PA-7     Pullman, Compartment, Bedroom,Drawing Room  
(Rio Ojinaga)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      Picture 3     
PA-6     Pullman  18 Roomette  ( 
Atlantis)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      Picture 4     
PA-8      Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      That's the 8 car set.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10701
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney celluloid Passenger
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          If I remember 
right none of the trucks have Talgo mounted couplers. All the loop 
type Couplers are mounted on the bodies. I guess I will have to take the cars 
off the shelves and look closer at them . I hate to keep moving them. I thought 
the same trucks were on all the cars. Shows you how close I looked.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I'll check closer later 
and get back to you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 4:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney celluloid 
  Passenger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    The truck in the close up looks like a Varney F3 truck to me and they 
  are shown on the coach only.  The other trucks look like Mantua 
  streamline talgo coupler arm trucks to me,
                                                                                                                                                                                    are they talgo trucks with the 
  coupler on a metal arm?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don in 
  VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    ============ ========= ========= ========= ====

                                                                                                                                                                                    jim 
  heckard wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don D, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        Since its a little quiet on 
    the site I thought I'd send this Varney celluloid sided, pre painted 
    passenger car set. I know Don D likes this type of car.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        There are 8 cars in the set 
    (four now, four later).This is the post war set made between 1946-1949. 
    They are painted in basically NYC colors but had no road name on them. They 
    featured heavy acetate sides, printed on clear sheets. Construction was 
    exactly the same as the pre war PA-1 to PA-8 series. Basswood floor, roof 
    and end blocks. Minimal frame and underbody detail. These are full-scale 
    length.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       The trucks on these are not what 
    originally came with the cars. Since Varney made no appropriate passenger 
    trucks at the time they had included the 4 wheel roller bearing from the pre 
    war "Shorty"passenger car kits. I don't know what brand of trucks are on 
    these but look like Athearn to me. They are metal side frames with brass 
    wheels. The couplers on this set are large loop by Mantua ( ? ).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                               Picture 
    1    PA-1     Baggage 
Express
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                               Picture 
    2    PA-2     Baggage-Mail
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                               Picture 
    3    PA-3     Baggage-Coach 
    Combine
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                               Picture 
    4    PA-4      Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    Picture 5    Close up of truck
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                               Other 4 
    cars later.    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10702
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Trucks on Varney Passenger
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don .
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           You peaked my 
curiosity to find out just what kind of trucks are on this Varney set. I 
sent two pictures to show you the type of trucks that are on 3 (first set of 
pictures) of the cars.This type is on the 3 types of baggage cars. The other 5 
cars have the type of truck I sent the picture of in the first 
Email. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                           I don't 
know if it was the design of the original builder that he had them this way. I 
bought the set years ago from an older fellow at a train meet. Must have been in 
the 1980's. He was selling lots of Varney items all built and in original 
boxes. He had many steam locomotives but I couldn't afford them. He sold me the 
8 built passenger cars with all the original boxes for $50 because he didn't 
want to "take them back home". Nobody was buying his stuff. Boy wish I had money 
then.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Anyway that's how I 
got them and the trucks were already on. I "rebuilt" the first four cars (took 
off the sides that were coming off and repainted roofs and bottoms and started 
to add some ladders. I never did get around to the last four. They still need a 
little work.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Last pictures of the 
body mounted (all cars) big loop type couplers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10703
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 5/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Trucks on Varney Passenger [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
Those are not the Mantua talgo trucks.  They look more like the
Pennline trucks but all of those that I had had talgo coupler mount
tongues on them and I often cut the tongues off...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
then the Pennline trucks looked like the ones you show in the last
pictures but the wheels were a different type in Pennline trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks for all the effort.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
===================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           You peaked my curiosity to
find out just what kind of trucks are on this Varney set. I sent two
pictures to show you the type of trucks that are on 3 (first set of
pictures) of the cars.This type is on the 3 types of baggage cars. The
other 5 cars have the type of truck I sent the picture of in the first
Email. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           I don't know if it was the
design of the original builder that he had them this way. I bought the
set years ago from an older fellow at a train meet. Must have been in
the 1980's. He was selling lots of Varney items all built and in
original boxes. He had many steam locomotives but I couldn't afford
them. He sold me the 8 built passenger cars with all the original boxes
for $50 because he didn't want to "take them back home". Nobody was
buying his stuff. Boy wish I had money then.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          Anyway that's how I got them
and the trucks were already on. I "rebuilt" the first four cars (took
off the sides that were coming off and repainted roofs and bottoms and
started to add some ladders. I never did get around to the last four.
They still need a little work.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          Last pictures of the body
mounted (all cars) big loop type couplers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10704
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Celluloid Passenger Cars [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    One of the other list members has a complete set of the grey ones (I know, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
built them for him <G>), they should be pictured in my varney passenger car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
album on the home page.  I have a complete set of the blue ones with an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
extra RPO and an extra diner.  As I understand it, they were only offered 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
pre-war.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Courtesy of Jim, I was able to build a Tuscan combine, my late godfather had 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
four of the Tuscan cars that he got in the early 1950's as premiums from 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
cereal (Post Grape Nuts?)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm told they were also available in SP daylight colors but I've never seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
one in person.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A note on trucks, I'm not sure who's are on Jim's cars, the original Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
truck was a PRR roller bearing style, with the F-3 trucks sold as "deluxe" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
streamliner trucks (as another member pointed out.).  The only other Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
trucks I know of were a sprung commonwealth, very similar to Central 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Valleys.  The member who has they grey ones provided them to me for his 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Cc: <lennard@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 3:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Celluloid Passenger Cars [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don D, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      These are pictures of the other 4 cars from the 8 car set of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
celluloid sided, pre painted streamlined passenger cars in NYC type colors. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
(I have two of the pictures out of order.)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Picture 1     PA-5    Diner
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Picture 2     PA-7     Pullman, Compartment, Bedroom,Drawing Room  (Rio 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ojinaga)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Picture 3     PA-6     Pullman  18 Roomette  ( Atlantis)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Picture 4     PA-8      Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  That's the 8 car set.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                      Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10705
						From: Jay Wanczyk
						Date: 5/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: American Beauty GN Pendulum Chair Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    We had mentioned the American Beauty Great Northern Empire Builder Pendulum Chair Car a couple  of weeks ago; one of these unique models is up on ebay right now, closing in a few hours. Item number: 140320103744   A photo is attached.  An interesting, seldom seen model and a chance at one for those wanting it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10706
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Celluloid Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don D, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         Even though you have or 
have seen other sets I hope you enjoyed these. I have 3 of the Tuscan 
(Pennsy type paint scheme) cars. I have two of the blue (B&O type). Just a 
couple of weeks ago two different cars of the blue type were on Ebay. I didn't 
bid as I am putting my money into the layout. I have never seen any of the SP 
Daylight colored types either. These three types were all pre war. This two tone 
grey is the only full size post war scheme I know of..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I have two of the three 
shorties, combine and coach, in C&NW scheme. I have bought 4 different 
Observations, two brand new and two built. Everyone has the paint peeling off 
the rounded end.. It's like zinc pest for celluloid and paint. Can't stop it and 
I haven't found one with just a little that could be touched up.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         I have two brand 
new pairs of combine sides for the Pennsy type paint 
scheme if someone can put to good 
use.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 6:50 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Celluloid 
  Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    One of the other list members has a complete set of the grey ones (I know, 
  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    built them for him <G>), they should be pictured in my varney 
  passenger car 
                                                                                                                                                                                    album on the home page. I have a complete set of the blue 
  ones with an 
                                                                                                                                                                                    extra RPO and an extra diner. As I understand it, they were 
  only offered 
                                                                                                                                                                                    pre-war.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Courtesy of Jim, I was able to build a Tuscan 
  combine, my late godfather had 
                                                                                                                                                                                    four of the Tuscan cars that he got in the 
  early 1950's as premiums from 
                                                                                                                                                                                    cereal (Post Grape Nuts?)

                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm told 
  they were also available in SP daylight colors but I've never seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                    one in 
  person.

                                                                                                                                                                                    A note on trucks, I'm not sure who's are on Jim's cars, the 
  original Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                    truck was a PRR roller bearing style, with the F-3 trucks 
  sold as "deluxe" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    streamliner trucks (as another member pointed out.). The 
  only other Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                    trucks I know of were a sprung commonwealth, very 
  similar to Central 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Valleys. The member who has they grey ones provided 
  them to me for his 
                                                                                                                                                                                    cars.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: 
  <lennard@etex. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
  Tuesday, May 19, 2009 3:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Celluloid 
  Passenger Cars [4 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don D, All,

                                                                                                                                                                                    These are pictures of 
  the other 4 cars from the 8 car set of 
                                                                                                                                                                                    celluloid sided, pre painted 
  streamlined passenger cars in NYC type colors. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    (I have two of the pictures 
  out of order.)

                                                                                                                                                                                    Picture 1 PA-5 Diner

                                                                                                                                                                                    Picture 2 PA-7 Pullman, 
  Compartment, Bedroom,Drawing Room (Rio 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Ojinaga)

                                                                                                                                                                                    Picture 3 PA-6 
  Pullman 18 Roomette ( Atlantis)

                                                                                                                                                                                    Picture 4 PA-8 
  Observation

                                                                                                                                                                                    That's the 8 car set.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H 

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10707
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: American Beauty GN Pendulum Chair Car [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Not sure what kind of file that is, but the extension is wrong, it won't 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
open.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Jay Wanczyk" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 5:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] American Beauty GN Pendulum Chair Car [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
We had mentioned the American Beauty Great Northern Empire Builder Pendulum 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chair Car a couple of weeks ago; one of these unique models is up on ebay 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
right now, closing in a few hours. Item number: 140320103744 A photo is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
attached. An interesting, seldom seen model and a chance at one for those 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
wanting it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10708
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Trucks on Varney Passenger
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                           I have to 
match those trucks up. They do look familiar. Just to many types. I have to go 
to all my other passenger cars to check. I'm pretty sure not Penn Line. Not 
thick enough side frames.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 6:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Trucks on Varney 
  Passenger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Those are not the Mantua talgo trucks.  They look more like the 
  Pennline trucks but all of those that I had had talgo coupler mount tongues on 
  them and I often cut the tongues off...
                                                                                                                                                                                    then the Pennline trucks looked 
  like the ones you show in the last pictures but the wheels were a different 
  type in Pennline trucks.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for all the effort.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don in 
  VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ===

                                                                                                                                                                                    jim 
  heckard wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                           You peaked 
    my curiosity to find out just what kind of trucks are on this 
    Varney set. I sent two pictures to show you the type of trucks that are 
    on 3 (first set of pictures) of the cars.This type is on the 3 types of 
    baggage cars. The other 5 cars have the type of truck I sent the picture of 
    in the first Email. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                           I 
    don't know if it was the design of the original builder that he had them 
    this way. I bought the set years ago from an older fellow at a train meet. 
    Must have been in the 1980's. He was selling lots of Varney items all built 
    and in original boxes. He had many steam locomotives but I couldn't 
    afford them. He sold me the 8 built passenger cars with all the original 
    boxes for $50 because he didn't want to "take them back home". Nobody was 
    buying his stuff. Boy wish I had money then.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                          Anyway that's 
    how I got them and the trucks were already on. I "rebuilt" the first four 
    cars (took off the sides that were coming off and repainted roofs and 
    bottoms and started to add some ladders. I never did get around to the last 
    four. They still need a little work.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                          Last pictures of 
    the body mounted (all cars) big loop type couplers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10709
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 5/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Talgo couplers
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    As I remember--Mantua (TYCo) originated the "Talgo" 
truck mounted couplers--they also were making the Talgo train.  
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 2:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney celluloid 
  Passenger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          If I remember 
  right none of the trucks have Talgo mounted couplers. All the loop 
  type Couplers are mounted on the bodies. I guess I will have to take the cars 
  off the shelves and look closer at them . I hate to keep moving them. I 
  thought the same trucks were on all the cars. Shows you how close I 
  looked.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         I'll check closer later 
  and get back to you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 4:12 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney 
    celluloid Passenger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    The truck in the close up looks like a Varney F3 truck to me and they 
    are shown on the coach only.  The other trucks look like Mantua 
    streamline talgo coupler arm trucks to me,
                                                                                                                                                                                    are they talgo trucks with the 
    coupler on a metal arm?

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don in 
    VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    ============ ========= ========= ========= ====

                                                                                                                                                                                    jim 
    heckard wrote: 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don D, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                        Since its a little quiet 
      on the site I thought I'd send this Varney celluloid sided, pre painted 
      passenger car set. I know Don D likes this type of car.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                        There are 8 cars in the 
      set (four now, four later).This is the post war set made between 
      1946-1949. They are painted in basically NYC colors but had no road name 
      on them. They featured heavy acetate sides, printed on clear sheets. 
      Construction was exactly the same as the pre war PA-1 to PA-8 series. 
      Basswood floor, roof and end blocks. Minimal frame and underbody detail. 
      These are full-scale length.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       The trucks on these are not what 
      originally came with the cars. Since Varney made no appropriate passenger 
      trucks at the time they had included the 4 wheel roller bearing from the 
      pre war "Shorty"passenger car kits. I don't know what brand of trucks are 
      on these but look like Athearn to me. They are metal side frames with 
      brass wheels. The couplers on this set are large loop by Mantua ( ? ).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                               
      Picture 1    PA-1     Baggage 
      Express
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                               
      Picture 2    PA-2     
      Baggage-Mail
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                               
      Picture 3    PA-3     Baggage-Coach 
      Combine
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                               Picture 
      4    PA-4      Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                
      Picture 5    Close up of truck
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                               Other 
      4 cars later.    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

    

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10710
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 5/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Talgo couplers
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
Mantua made some very good stream line passenger talgo trucks with a
tongue on both ends...  One was long and one was short.  The problem
was the couplers had to be insulated from the truck if the couplers
were metal.  The same was true of the later Pennline trucks as far as
insulating the metal couplers were concerned.  I do not know the dates
of the Mantua  manufacture but they were used on a set of Athearn
plastic streamline cars I obtained in the late '50's.  I found PennLine
talgo passenger trucks a little later.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks for the information.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Glenn476 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    As I remember--Mantua (TYCo)
originated the "Talgo" truck mounted couplers--they also were making
the Talgo train.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent:
Tuesday, May 19, 2009 2:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject:
Re: [vintageHO] Varney celluloid Passenger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                          If I remember right none of
the trucks have Talgo mounted couplers. All the loop type Couplers are
mounted on the bodies. I guess I will have to take the cars off the
shelves and look closer at them . I hate to keep moving them. I thought
the same trucks were on all the cars. Shows you how close I looked.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                         I'll check closer later and
get back to you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent:
Tuesday, May 19, 2009 4:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject:
Re: [vintageHO] Varney celluloid Passenger
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    The truck in the close up looks like a Varney F3 truck to
me and they are shown on the coach only.  The other trucks look like
Mantua streamline talgo coupler arm trucks to me,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
are they talgo trucks with the coupler on a metal arm?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
============ ========= ========= ========= ====
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
jim heckard wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don D, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                        Since its a little quiet
on the site I thought I'd send this Varney celluloid sided, pre painted
passenger car set. I know Don D likes this type of car.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                        There are 8 cars in the
set (four now, four later).This is the post war set made between
1946-1949. They are painted in basically NYC colors but had no road
name on them. They featured heavy acetate sides, printed on clear
sheets. Construction was exactly the same as the pre war PA-1 to PA-8
series. Basswood floor, roof and end blocks. Minimal frame and
underbody detail. These are full-scale length.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       The trucks on these are not
what originally came with the cars. Since Varney made no appropriate
passenger trucks at the time they had included the 4 wheel roller
bearing from the pre war "Shorty"passenger car kits. I don't know what
brand of trucks are on these but look like Athearn to me. They are
metal side frames with brass wheels. The couplers on this set are large
loop by Mantua ( ? ).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                               Picture 1   
PA-1     Baggage Express
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                               Picture 2   
PA-2     Baggage-Mail
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                               Picture 3   
PA-3     Baggage-Coach Combine
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                               Picture 4   
PA-4      Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                Picture 5    Close
up of truck
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                               Other 4 cars
later.    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
        
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.34/2122 - Release Date:
05/19/09 06:21:00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10711
						From: toytrain13
						Date: 5/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney celluloid Passenger
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim- I remember these kits as a teenager in 1948. The trucks y0u show a closeup of are Varney's F3 diesel trucks. Even as a teenager I objected to their use on passenger cars. I guess Varney thought they looked more "modern" than the prewar roller bearning truck. I did build a shorty in the C&NW colors. It had the prewar trucks. I've always regreted getting rid of it, in the 80's. Regards- Richard White --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don D, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Since its a little quiet on the site I thought I'd send this Varney celluloid sided, pre painted passenger car set. I know Don D likes this type of car.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     There are 8 cars in the set (four now, four later).This is the post war set made between 1946-1949. They are painted in basically NYC colors but had no road name on them. They featured heavy acetate sides, printed on clear sheets. Construction was exactly the same as the pre war PA-1 to PA-8 series. Basswood floor, roof and end blocks. Minimal frame and underbody detail. These are full-scale length.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    The trucks on these are not what originally came with the cars. Since Varney made no appropriate passenger trucks at the time they had included the 4 wheel roller bearing from the pre war "Shorty"passenger car kits. I don't know what brand of trucks are on these but look like Athearn to me. They are metal side frames with brass wheels. The couplers on this set are large loop by Mantua ( ? ).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            Picture 1    PA-1     Baggage Express
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            Picture 2    PA-2     Baggage-Mail
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            Picture 3    PA-3     Baggage-Coach Combine
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            Picture 4    PA-4      Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             Picture 5    Close up of truck
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            Other 4 cars later.    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10712
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: American Beauty GN Pendulum Chair Car [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Don D., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sorry attachment did not work for me, either.  Her is the link to the model on eBay, it is still up for 45 minutes more:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://tinyurl.com/of7xll
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I noticed that the attachments on our group webite are no longer clickable  on the left, and I can no longer see them there, but have to go to my individual Yahoo page.  That just changed this afternoon, back to the "old" way again, it seems.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Not sure what kind of file that is, but the extension is wrong, it won't 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> open.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "Jay Wanczyk" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 5:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] American Beauty GN Pendulum Chair Car [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> We had mentioned the American Beauty Great Northern Empire Builder Pendulum 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chair Car a couple of weeks ago; one of these unique models is up on ebay 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> right now, closing in a few hours. Item number: 140320103744 A photo is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> attached. An interesting, seldom seen model and a chance at one for those 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> wanting it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10713
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 5/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: American Beauty GN Pendulum Chair Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Hi Don D., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sorry attachment did not work for me, either.  Her is the link to the model on eBay, it is still up for 45 minutes more:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://tinyurl.com/of7xll
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Was second best.... did somebody of the group get it?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10714
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: American Beauty GN Pendulum Chair Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 1:55 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: American Beauty GN Pendulum Chair Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Hi Don D., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Sorry attachment did not work for me, either.  Her is the link to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> model on eBay, it is still up for 45 minutes more:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://tinyurl.com/of7xll
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Was second best.... did somebody of the group get it?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I dropped out at twenty bucks so it wasn't me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10715
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 5/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: American Beauty GN Pendulum Chair Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Old song and dance for me...........
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
But I hope to be cutting my own rather soon. It's more of a sure  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
thing for me to get some.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     On May 20, 2009, at 6:33 AM, Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "Gerold Eckl"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Hi Don D., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Sorry attachment did not work for me, either.  Her is the link to  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> model on eBay, it is still up for 45 minutes more:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> http://tinyurl.com/of7xll
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Was second best.... did somebody of the group get it?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I dropped out at twenty bucks so it wasn't me.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10716
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Most used trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Yesterday we talked about the 
trucks used on the Varney plastic sided passenger cars as being Varney's F-3 
Diesel trucks. I thought it might be interesting to see pictures of the company 
that used the same truck/side frames on the most different items.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Marx HO. You will see by the 
pictures that they didn't waste time,money or effort when it came to equipping 
their items. As you will see by the 4 pictures they use the same F-3 Diesel 
trucks on everything but their freight cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 
1       Marx F-3
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 
2       Marx  GP-7 (or what ever its to 
represent)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 
3       Marx Passenger Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 
4       Marx 4-6-4 Hudson Tender
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      Talk about putting to good 
use while not prototypical.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10717
						From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com
						Date: 5/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Most used trucks [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                    That truck was also used to power the Marx version of the Hustler. I can't 
post a picture, but the sideframes had cutouts to accommodate the brake 
cylinders of the truck... and that is what was used to hold it in place. The 
unit itself lives on in Model Powers' line, with a different 
drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10718
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Marx Hustler Truck
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Mr. Lengal, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        I had forgotten the Marx Hustler 
used the same truck and side frames. Here are two pictures to show how it held 
the body on.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10719
						From: Chris B
						Date: 5/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Most used trucks [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, my favorite of all the Marx trucks are the two alco switchers!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: lennard@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 10:36:01 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Most used trucks [4 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Yesterday we talked about the trucks used on the Varney plastic sided passenger cars as being Varney's F-3 Diesel trucks. I thought it might be interesting to see pictures of the company that used the same truck/side frames on the most different items.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Marx HO. You will see by the pictures that they didn't waste time,money or effort when it came to equipping their items. As you will see by the 4 pictures they use the same F-3 Diesel trucks on everything but their freight cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 1       Marx F-3
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 2       Marx  GP-7 (or what ever its to represent)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 3       Marx Passenger Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Picture 4       Marx 4-6-4 Hudson Tender
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                      Talk about putting to good use while not prototypical.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10720
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 5/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Most used trucks [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Take a look at what's under their four wheel switcher.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Cc: <lennard@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 10:36 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Most used trucks [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Yesterday we talked about the trucks used on the Varney plastic sided 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
passenger cars as being Varney's F-3 Diesel trucks. I thought it might be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
interesting to see pictures of the company that used the same truck/side 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
frames on the most different items.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Marx HO. You will see by the pictures that they didn't waste time,money 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
or effort when it came to equipping their items. As you will see by the 4 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
pictures they use the same F-3 Diesel trucks on everything but their freight 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Picture 1       Marx F-3
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Picture 2       Marx  GP-7 (or what ever its to represent)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Picture 3       Marx Passenger Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Picture 4       Marx 4-6-4 Hudson Tender
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Talk about putting to good use while not prototypical.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
               Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10721
						From: Riverboy
						Date: 5/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: MT Washington Cog Railway ( Slightly Off Topic )
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hello Group ,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I just received a lot I won on eBay , and included in it is an narrow gauge O scale cog steam locomotive for the MT Washington Cog Railway in New Hampshire .
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have no idea who made it or when , and was hoping felllow members could help me out . 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    It appears to be brass , or some other metal . It is in nice shape .
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I call this slightly off topic since it is O scale , but since it runs on HO track , I thought its pretty close to on topic .
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    If anyone can help , I'd greatly appreciate it . 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    If you need more information , ask me off group , and I will give you the details needed .
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank you in advance .
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Tod ( Ohio )
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10722
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: MT Washington Cog Railway ( Slightly Off Topic )
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Todd (Ohio)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Can't tell if it is a manufactured unit or talented kit-bash.  You might want to check out an article in Popular Mechanics or Popular Science from the 1950's that carried an extensive article on building such a model from existing parts.  Almost all back issues of both magazines are available on line for reading in Google Books archives. But fair warning, that library will have you hooked for hours!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hello Group ,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I just received a lot I won on eBay , and included in it is an narrow gauge O scale cog steam locomotive for the MT Washington Cog Railway in New Hampshire .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have no idea who made it or when , and was hoping felllow members could help me out . 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It appears to be brass , or some other metal . It is in nice shape .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I call this slightly off topic since it is O scale , but since it runs on HO track , I thought its pretty close to on topic .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> If anyone can help , I'd greatly appreciate it . 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> If you need more information , ask me off group , and I will give you the details needed .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thank you in advance .
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Tod ( Ohio )
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10723
						From: Jack Priller
						Date: 5/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: RDC by who? when?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jack's Junque album contains three new photos of an RDC in pieces; would like to find out who made it, and when. The ends, the roof 'blister'(?) and the under-floor details are die-cast, while the inner and outer shells as well as the floor are stamped steel. The short piece closest to the shells appears to be an adapter so that all the parts for a powered unit, minus the power truck, could be used to make a 'dummy' unit. Note that I do NOT have the trucks, so there are no clues from them I can add.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jack Priller
                                                                                                                                                                                    
El Paso, TX
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10724
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 5/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: RDC by who? when?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    That's an Athearn!  I'm working on a pair now--Motor was a vertical shaft 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
with a series of gears--like the old Penn Scale Models/Bowser trolley 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
drives.   I have instructions--gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Jack Priller" <westpac67@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 9:39 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] RDC by who? when?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Jack's Junque album contains three new photos of an RDC in pieces; 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> would like to find out who made it, and when. The ends, the roof 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 'blister'(?) and the under-floor details are die-cast, while the inner and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> outer shells as well as the floor are stamped steel. The short piece 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> closest to the shells appears to be an adapter so that all the parts for a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> powered unit, minus the power truck, could be used to make a 'dummy' unit. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Note that I do NOT have the trucks, so there are no clues from them I can 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> add.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jack Priller
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> El Paso, TX
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.36/2125 - Release Date: 05/20/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
18:03:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10725
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 5/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Most used trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Well now....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Marx also used their F-3 diesel powered truck in their little
                                                                                                                                                                                    
"whitcomb like" switcher.  I have one of those critters.  Paid
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the magnificent sum of $5 for it.  Wasn't working thanks to
                                                                                                                                                                                    
a miserable power pickup scheme.  Fixed it and it runs now.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Note that I'm not saying it runs well - it doesn't.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Yesterday we talked about the trucks used on the Varney plastic sided passenger cars as being Varney's F-3 Diesel trucks. I thought it might be interesting to see pictures of the company that used the same truck/side frames on the most different items.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Marx HO. You will see by the pictures that they didn't waste time,money or effort when it came to equipping their items. As you will see by the 4 pictures they use the same F-3 Diesel trucks on everything but their freight cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Picture 1       Marx F-3
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Picture 2       Marx  GP-7 (or what ever its to represent)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Picture 3       Marx Passenger Car
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Picture 4       Marx 4-6-4 Hudson Tender
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Talk about putting to good use while not prototypical.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10726
						From: Jack Priller
						Date: 5/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: RDC by who? when?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank you most sincerely, Glenn! Was this from before or after their (in)famous Hi-F drive?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
     And as you have the instructions, could you confirm my WAG that there is supposed to be some "window" material sandwiched between the inner and outer shells?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks again,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jack Priller
                                                                                                                                                                                    
El Paso, TX
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> That's an Athearn!  I'm working on a pair now--Motor was a vertical shaft 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> with a series of gears--like the old Penn Scale Models/Bowser trolley 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> drives.   I have instructions--gj 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10727
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 5/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: RDC by who? when?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Way earlier than the Hi-F drive.  and yes on the window material.  five me a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
snail-mail address and I'll send the instrx.   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Jack Priller" <westpac67@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 8:52 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: RDC by who? when?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Thank you most sincerely, Glenn! Was this from before or after their 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (in)famous Hi-F drive?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     And as you have the instructions, could you confirm my WAG that there 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> is supposed to be some "window" material sandwiched between the inner and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> outer shells?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks again,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jack Priller
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> El Paso, TX
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> That's an Athearn!  I'm working on a pair now--Motor was a vertical shaft
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> with a series of gears--like the old Penn Scale Models/Bowser trolley
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> drives.   I have instructions--gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.36/2127 - Release Date: 05/21/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
17:51:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10728
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jack P, Glenn, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       While Glenn definitely has you on 
the right track I would like to add a few things that might be helpful to 
you.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       I'm sending a picture of one of my 
metal Athearn RDC's. It is an RDC-2 like yours. Take note to the smaller window 
at the end as compared to the other windows. This is a good way to tell an 
RDC-2.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       Athearn made metal RDC 1, 2, 3, and 4 
styles. They were first produced around 1953-1954 till 1957. (The later plastic 
bodied RDC 1 and 3 had the Hi-F rubber band drive. ).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       I know Glenn is sending you a sheet of 
the plans for these metal RDC's but if you go to  www.hoseeker.net , hit Literature and go to 
main Athearn listing under diesels you will see the 2 page assembly sheet 
for the Athearn metal RDC's. They were assembled with a double body type 
construction with the window material in between as you will see on the 
plan.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Just thought this might add to 
what Glenn has told you already.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10729
						From: Jack Priller
						Date: 5/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, Glenn, et al; I thank you for all the information. I down-loaded a copy of the instructions, which, besides helping me put it together properly, will also help me replicate all the tiny MISSING pieces for the RDC-2.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
     As I happen to have two partially disassembled plastic Athearn RDC's [powered #3 and a dummy #1], all I have to do is decide which of the un-powered cars to put the dummy trucks on. Even though I do have two pair of Hi-F trucks in my spare parts box, they have the F7 style side-frames which might raise an eye-brow or three among folks noticing that my 3-unit train does not have matching trucks. As Yul Brenner said in his role as the King of Siam, "Tiz a puzzlement!"
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jack Priller
                                                                                                                                                                                    
El Paso, TX
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Jack P, Glenn, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    While Glenn definitely has you on the right track I would like to add a few things that might be helpful to you.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    I'm sending a picture of one of my metal Athearn RDC's. It is an RDC-2 like yours. Take note to the smaller window at the end as compared to the other windows. This is a good way to tell an RDC-2.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    Athearn made metal RDC 1, 2, 3, and 4 styles. They were first produced around 1953-1954 till 1957. (The later plastic bodied RDC 1 and 3 had the Hi-F rubber band drive. ).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    I know Glenn is sending you a sheet of the plans for these metal RDC's but if you go to  www.hoseeker.net , hit Literature and go to main Athearn listing under diesels you will see the 2 page assembly sheet for the Athearn metal RDC's. They were assembled with a double body type construction with the window material in between as you will see on the plan.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Just thought this might add to what Glenn has told you already.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10730
						From: Chris B
						Date: 5/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I've got two of the first version Athearn RDCs, one powered and one dummy...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The powered model ran fine till some clumsy oaf who is writing this email 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    took the powered truck apart and lost one of the intermediate gears....
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    anyone have or know of a source for same?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: lennard@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:15:14 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn Metal RDC"s [1 Attachment]

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jack P, Glenn, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       While Glenn definitely has you on the right track I would like to add a few things that might be helpful to you.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       I'm sending a picture of one of my metal Athearn RDC's. It is an RDC-2 like yours. Take note to the smaller window at the end as compared to the other windows. This is a good way to tell an RDC-2.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       Athearn made metal RDC 1, 2, 3, and 4 styles. They were first produced around 1953-1954 till 1957. (The later plastic bodied RDC 1 and 3 had the Hi-F rubber band drive. ).
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                       I know Glenn is sending you a sheet of the plans for these metal RDC's but if you go to  www.hoseeker. net , hit Literature and go to main Athearn listing under diesels you will see the 2 page assembly sheet for the Athearn metal RDC's. They were assembled with a double body type construction with the window material in between as you will see on the plan.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        Just thought this might add to what Glenn has told you already.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10731
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                               Having any 
parts available is hard and I doubt if I have a gear for you. Sorry. In fact the 
last metal RDC I rebuilt I had to search for some little detail parts 
myself. Maybe someone out there has what you need. Good luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 3:20 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Metal 
  RDC"s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I've got two of the first version Athearn RDCs, one powered and one 
  dummy...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    The powered model ran fine till some clumsy oaf who is writing 
  this email 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    took the powered truck apart and lost one of the intermediate 
  gears....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    anyone have or know of a source for same?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: lennard@etex. net
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:15:14 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Athearn Metal RDC"s [1 Attachment]

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jack P, Glenn, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       While Glenn definitely has you 
  on the right track I would like to add a few things that might be helpful to 
  you.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       I'm sending a picture of one of my 
  metal Athearn RDC's. It is an RDC-2 like yours. Take note to the smaller 
  window at the end as compared to the other windows. This is a good way to tell 
  an RDC-2.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       Athearn made metal RDC 1, 2, 3, and 
  4 styles. They were first produced around 1953-1954 till 1957. (The later 
  plastic bodied RDC 1 and 3 had the Hi-F rubber band drive. ).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       I know Glenn is sending you a sheet 
  of the plans for these metal RDC's but if you go to  www.hoseeker. 
  net , hit Literature and go to main Athearn listing under diesels you 
  will see the 2 page assembly sheet for the Athearn metal RDC's. They were 
  assembled with a double body type construction with the window material in 
  between as you will see on the plan.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        Just thought this might add to 
  what Glenn has told you already.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10732
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 5/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Checking those gears:  the front axle has a 
regular worm gear.  The first idler is also a worm gear.  The next 
idler is a reverse worm gear--opposite pitch.  Thebn the axle has a regular 
worm gear.  gj----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 4:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Metal 
  RDC"s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               Having any 
  parts available is hard and I doubt if I have a gear for you. Sorry. In fact 
  the last metal RDC I rebuilt I had to search for some little detail parts 
  myself. Maybe someone out there has what you need. Good luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
    Chris 
    B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 3:20 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Metal 
    RDC"s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    I've got two of the first version Athearn RDCs, one powered and one 
    dummy...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    The powered model ran fine till some clumsy oaf who is 
    writing this email 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    took the powered truck apart and lost one of the intermediate 
    gears....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    anyone have or know of a source for same?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: lennard@etex. net
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:15:14 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] 
    Athearn Metal RDC"s [1 Attachment]

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jack P, Glenn, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       While Glenn definitely has 
    you on the right track I would like to add a few things that might be 
    helpful to you.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       I'm sending a picture of one of my 
    metal Athearn RDC's. It is an RDC-2 like yours. Take note to the smaller 
    window at the end as compared to the other windows. This is a good way to 
    tell an RDC-2.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       Athearn made metal RDC 1, 2, 3, 
    and 4 styles. They were first produced around 1953-1954 till 1957. (The 
    later plastic bodied RDC 1 and 3 had the Hi-F rubber band drive. 
    ).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       I know Glenn is sending you a 
    sheet of the plans for these metal RDC's but if you go to  www.hoseeker. 
    net , hit Literature and go to main Athearn listing under diesels 
    you will see the 2 page assembly sheet for the Athearn metal RDC's. They 
    were assembled with a double body type construction with the window material 
    in between as you will see on the plan.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        Just thought this might add 
    to what Glenn has told you already.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

    

                                                                                                                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Checked by AVG - 
    www.avg.com 
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    Date: 05/22/09 06:03:00
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10733
						From: Chris B
						Date: 5/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    thanks, I forgot they were either one or the other, I'll check again and see which one it missing.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 9:00:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Metal RDC"s

                                                                                                                                                                                    









    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    Checking those gears:  the front axle has a 
regular worm gear.  The first idler is also a worm gear.  The next 
idler is a reverse worm gear--opposite pitch.  Thebn the axle has a regular 
worm gear.  gj----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 4:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Metal 
  RDC"s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               Having any 
  parts available is hard and I doubt if I have a gear for you. Sorry. In fact 
  the last metal RDC I rebuilt I had to search for some little detail parts 
  myself. Maybe someone out there has what you need. Good luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
   
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
    Chris 
    B 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 3:20 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Metal 
    RDC"s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    I've got two of the first version Athearn RDCs, one powered and one 
    dummy...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    The powered model ran fine till some clumsy oaf who is 
    writing this email 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    took the powered truck apart and lost one of the intermediate 
    gears....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    anyone have or know of a source for same?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Cc: lennard@etex. net
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:15:14 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] 
    Athearn Metal RDC"s [1 Attachment]

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jack P, Glenn, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       While Glenn definitely has 
    you on the right track I would like to add a few things that might be 
    helpful to you.  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       I'm sending a picture of one of my 
    metal Athearn RDC's. It is an RDC-2 like yours. Take note to the smaller 
    window at the end as compared to the other windows. This is a good way to 
    tell an RDC-2.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       Athearn made metal RDC 1, 2, 3, 
    and 4 styles. They were first produced around 1953-1954 till 1957. (The 
    later plastic bodied RDC 1 and 3 had the Hi-F rubber band drive. 
    ).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       I know Glenn is sending you a 
    sheet of the plans for these metal RDC's but if you go to  www.hoseeker. 
    net , hit Literature and go to main Athearn listing under diesels 
    you will see the 2 page assembly sheet for the Athearn metal RDC's. They 
    were assembled with a double body type construction with the window material 
    in between as you will see on the plan.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        Just thought this might add 
    to what Glenn has told you already.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

    

                                                                                                                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Checked by AVG - 
    www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.36/2128 - Release 
    Date: 05/22/09 06:03:00
                                                                                                                                                                                    

 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10734
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Does anyone know what would be reasonable price to pay for one of these metal units? They must be pretty rare, as I don't see them on Oy-vey very often, and the bidding can get pretty nuts when they do show up.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10735
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 5/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    On ebay, I paid $27.99 for an RDC-1 some years 
ago.  And $34.00 for another RDC-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    One was a quite a bit rustier than described or 
photographed and it annoyed me.  Then this list got started.  During 
another RDC discussion, one member on this list needed the "large data 
plate" parts.  And another needed a power truck.  I simply sent the 
plates to the one, and the rest to the other at no charge therefore putting 
them, and myself, out of our varying miseries.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I still have the other one I bought, but it does 
have some small rust splotches on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I see one currently listed and closing soon with 
the bid at $26.99.  Another is currently at $12.99.  Another at 
$14.99.  I notice that some don't have the older rec and white box and 
instead have the blue box.  I don't know the story of that.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    For recently closed auctions (I searched only for 
"athearn metal rdc"), I see an all metal dummy sold for $12.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  Nelson 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 2:31 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Metal 
  RDC"s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Does anyone know what would be reasonable price to pay for one of these 
  metal units? They must be pretty rare, as I don't see them on Oy-vey very 
  often, and the bidding can get pretty nuts when they do show 
  up.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10736
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 5/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    They are not common, but do come up and has been noted there are several on ebay now. I accumulate metal RDC cars and have at least one of each variety and several of the RDC1's and RDC3's. Some of them are basically unpowered hulks, most are powered,  none, even those advertised as running, will actually make it around my track on their own power. On the faint hope of actually getting a good runner I have paid as much as $40.00 for a supposed to run version and as little as $10.00 for what turned out to be little more than a box of parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Be aware of rust.  If it looks brownish instead of bright silver then it is likely rusted to badly rusted. Even if it appears to be bright silver it still may be lightly rusted. According to one of the Athearn books the early versions were known to sometimes have rust on them before they even left the store. Athearn supposedly coated them with something to prevent rust.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Of those I have in boxes they all came in the red/ white box. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Sat, 5/23/09, Nelson <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Nelson <greenbrier614@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009, 2:31 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Does anyone know what would be reasonable price to pay for one of these metal units? They must be pretty rare, as I don't see them on Oy-vey very often, and the bidding can get pretty nuts when they do show up.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson




                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10737
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck K,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
 I am the person that you sent the large data plate parts to and I thank 
you again. I just sent a picture of the RDC-2 yesterday that I used them on. You 
can see they went to good use and helped complete a nice looking 
piece..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 10:28 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 
  Metal RDC"s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    On ebay, I paid $27.99 for an RDC-1 some years 
  ago.  And $34.00 for another RDC-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    One was a quite a bit rustier than described or 
  photographed and it annoyed me.  Then this list got started.  During 
  another RDC discussion, one member on this list needed the "large data 
  plate" parts.  And another needed a power truck.  I simply sent the 
  plates to the one, and the rest to the other at no charge therefore putting 
  them, and myself, out of our varying miseries.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I still have the other one I bought, but it does 
  have some small rust splotches on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I see one currently listed and closing soon with 
  the bid at $26.99.  Another is currently at $12.99.  Another at 
  $14.99.  I notice that some don't have the older rec and white box and 
  instead have the blue box.  I don't know the story of that.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    For recently closed auctions (I searched only for 
  "athearn metal rdc"), I see an all metal dummy sold for $12.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Nelson 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 2:31 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Metal 
    RDC"s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Does anyone know what would be reasonable price to pay for one of these 
    metal units? They must be pretty rare, as I don't see them on Oy-vey very 
    often, and the bidding can get pretty nuts when they do show 
    up.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10738
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 5/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    And I definitely appreciated the power truck--a 
friend re-magnetized the motor--so I now have a 2-car set.  I just made 
some data plates out of aluminum/   I have been passing along copies 
of instructions and spare parts.   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 7:28 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 
  Metal RDC"s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    On ebay, I paid $27.99 for an RDC-1 some years 
  ago.  And $34.00 for another RDC-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    One was a quite a bit rustier than described or 
  photographed and it annoyed me.  Then this list got started.  During 
  another RDC discussion, one member on this list needed the "large data 
  plate" parts.  And another needed a power truck.  I simply sent the 
  plates to the one, and the rest to the other at no charge therefore putting 
  them, and myself, out of our varying miseries.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I still have the other one I bought, but it does 
  have some small rust splotches on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I see one currently listed and closing soon with 
  the bid at $26.99.  Another is currently at $12.99.  Another at 
  $14.99.  I notice that some don't have the older rec and white box and 
  instead have the blue box.  I don't know the story of that.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    For recently closed auctions (I searched only for 
  "athearn metal rdc"), I see an all metal dummy sold for $12.00
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
    Nelson 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 2:31 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Metal 
    RDC"s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Does anyone know what would be reasonable price to pay for one of these 
    metal units? They must be pretty rare, as I don't see them on Oy-vey very 
    often, and the bidding can get pretty nuts when they do show 
    up.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

    

                                                                                                                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Checked by AVG - 
    www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.37/2129 - Release 
    Date: 05/22/09 17:56:00
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10739
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the responses. That gives me a ballpark figure, but I didn't know they were so problematic mechanically. I figured the vertically mounted motor was more reliable than the Hi-Fi drive, but it doesn't sound like it, unless your units were misused.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Are the bodies are stamped steel? I had assumed they were aluminum, like some older HO passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> They are not common, but do come up and has been noted there are several on ebay now. I accumulate metal RDC cars and have at least one of each variety and several of the RDC1's and RDC3's. Some of them are basically unpowered hulks, most are powered,  none, even those advertised as running, will actually make it around my track on their own power. On the faint hope of actually getting a good runner I have paid as much as $40.00 for a supposed to run version and as little as $10.00 for what turned out to be little more than a box of parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Be aware of rust.  If it looks brownish instead of bright silver then it is likely rusted to badly rusted. Even if it appears to be bright silver it still may be lightly rusted. According to one of the Athearn books the early versions were known to sometimes have rust on them before they even left the store. Athearn supposedly coated them with something to prevent rust.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of those I have in boxes they all came in the red/ white box. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Wobbly913 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10740
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 5/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don't let my warnings or poor experiences stop you from getting a metal RDC, I am so sure that there are good ones available that I bought another one on ebay just yesterday.  It was really a nice shiney silver and looked complete.  The seller alleged that it went both forwards and backwards.  I took his word for that and bought it!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, in my opinion the Hi F models with their rubber band drive are a great deal more likely to actually run.  They need frequent band changes if used much.  They are also high speed, but will run slow. I have a couple of dozen of them, I like them that much.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes the carbody on the metal RDC's are made of steel, not aluminum, and the early ones in particular are prone to rust.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Sun, 5/24/09, Nelson <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Nelson <greenbrier614@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Sunday, May 24, 2009, 1:04 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the responses. That gives me a ballpark figure, but I didn't know they were so problematic mechanically. I figured the vertically mounted motor was more reliable than the Hi-Fi drive, but it doesn't sound like it, unless your units were misused.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Are the bodies are stamped steel? I had assumed they were aluminum, like some older HO passenger cars.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson



                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10741
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                             
Everyone has their feelings about how certain engines run and I'm no different. 
I have NO complaints about my metal RDC's. I have four, one of each type (1, 2, 
3,and 4) all powered. As a collector of items from many different companies I 
can't afford to have more. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                         Each one of my four metal 
Athearn RDC"S was gone over when they got here. Normal servicing , nothing 
special. Three of the four run beautiful. The other is sluggish running in one 
direction ( I'm not sure if it is front wards or backwards) but not enough to 
discard it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          Was I lucky to get 
items that run good, I don't know. I prefer these over the RBD (Hi-F) for better 
speed control and as was mentioned I don't have to keep changing bands. Again 
personal preference.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  Nelson 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 4:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Metal 
  RDC"s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the responses. That gives me a ballpark figure, but I didn't 
  know they were so problematic mechanically. I figured the vertically mounted 
  motor was more reliable than the Hi-Fi drive, but it doesn't sound like it, 
  unless your units were misused.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Are the bodies are stamped steel? I had 
  assumed they were aluminum, like some older HO passenger 
  cars.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Wobbly913 <wobbly913@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > They are not common, but do come up and has been noted there 
  are several on ebay now. I accumulate metal RDC cars and have at least one of 
  each variety and several of the RDC1's and RDC3's. Some of them are 
  basically unpowered hulks, most are powered,  none, even those advertised 
  as running, will actually make it around my track on their own power. On the 
  faint hope of actually getting a good runner I have paid as much as $40.00 for 
  a supposed to run version and as little as $10.00 for what turned out to be 
  little more than a box of parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Be aware of rust.  If it looks 
  brownish instead of bright silver then it is likely rusted to badly rusted. 
  Even if it appears to be bright silver it still may be lightly rusted. 
  According to one of the Athearn books the early versions were known to 
  sometimes have rust on them before they even left the store. Athearn 
  supposedly coated them with something to prevent rust.
                                                                                                                                                                                    >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Of those I have in boxes they all came in the red/ white box. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
   
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10742
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 5/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    The bodies are steel.  Walthers June flyer has a power truck that might be a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
good substitute--it's mainly designed as a "booster" for passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Nelson" <greenbrier614@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 1:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks for the responses. That gives me a ballpark figure, but I didn't know 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
they were so problematic mechanically. I figured the vertically mounted 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
motor was more reliable than the Hi-Fi drive, but it doesn't sound like it, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
unless your units were misused.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Are the bodies are stamped steel? I had assumed they were aluminum, like 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
some older HO passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> They are not common, but do come up and has been noted there are several 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> on ebay now. I accumulate metal RDC cars and have at least one of each 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> variety and several of the RDC1's and RDC3's. Some of them are basically 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> unpowered hulks, most are powered, none, even those advertised as running, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> will actually make it around my track on their own power. On the faint 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> hope of actually getting a good runner I have paid as much as $40.00 for a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> supposed to run version and as little as $10.00 for what turned out to be 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> little more than a box of parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Be aware of rust. If it looks brownish instead of bright silver then it is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> likely rusted to badly rusted. Even if it appears to be bright silver it 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> still may be lightly rusted. According to one of the Athearn books the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> early versions were known to sometimes have rust on them before they even 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> left the store. Athearn supposedly coated them with something to prevent 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> rust.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of those I have in boxes they all came in the red/ white box.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.37/2131 - Release Date: 05/24/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
07:09:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10743
						From: Bill Daley
						Date: 5/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Pl
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                    --- On Wed, 4/22/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] hobbytown of Boston Power Chassis for RS-3, RSD-4/5 and other Plastic Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 4:00 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    "Jim H. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    At the same time, March 1957,  "hobbytown" introduced TWO different narrow frame cast metal chassis to power the plastic Alco Road Switcher with.  Kit #360K had six wheeled "C-C" trucks with all axles powered to model the RSD4/5 using the same RS-3 body and sold for $12.95 and also included the necessary six wheeled Alco switcher sideframes molded in black plastic." 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Recently, I was given two of those plastic RS3s. I used the power drives out of some OLD Model Power RS-11 locos. Had to modify the plastic frame to fit inside the Hobbytown shell, and add weight inside the shell.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I now have 3 Atlas, 1 Stewart, and 3 Hobbytown RS3s all lettered for the READING.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    BillD in south Jersey  
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10744
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Holiday
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    TO ALL,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                              " LEST 
  WE FORGET"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                               
  Happy Memorial Day
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                               Remember 
  the fallen.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10745
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Holiday
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Amen to that Jim.  Just returned from our Town's parade and Memorial Service, where our historic commission also has an exhibit which we try to improve upon annually. A local businesswoman buys small flags each year to line both sides of our main road for over two miles in silent tribute and some of us volunteer to set them up and take them down.  It is quite special to see it and remember.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   TO ALL,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                             " LEST WE FORGET"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                              Happy Memorial Day
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                              Remember the fallen.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10746
						From: John Barlow
						Date: 5/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Holiday
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    My thanks as a Vietnam Veteran to you and my thanks and remembrance to those in that theater who were not as fortunate as I was to come home. Lest we think coming home was enough, I know some who never really made it back but they walk our streets and sometimes sleep in strange places. The wounds and scars are unseen. Please don't judge them too harshly. This is their day as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    John

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Mon, 5/25/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Monday, May 25, 2009, 9:53 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    TO ALL,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                              " LEST WE FORGET"
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                               Happy Memorial Day
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                               Remember the fallen.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10747
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 5/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Holiday
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Local Lions Club contracts with businesses in town--so much $$ a year they 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
put out flags  on all the designated holidays.  Makes a good fundraiser for 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the club as well.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 11:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Amen to that Jim.  Just returned from our Town's parade and Memorial 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Service, where our historic commission also has an exhibit which we try to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> improve upon annually. A local businesswoman buys small flags each year to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> line both sides of our main road for over two miles in silent tribute and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> some of us volunteer to set them up and take them down.  It is quite 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> special to see it and remember.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   TO ALL,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>                             " LEST WE FORGET"
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>                              Happy Memorial Day
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>                              Remember the fallen.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.39/2133 - Release Date: 05/25/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
08:16:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10748
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Holiday
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Amen.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 10:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  TO ALL,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                            " LEST WE FORGET"
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                             Happy Memorial Day
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                             Remember the fallen.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                   Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10749
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for all the info; this really is a great list. I like to tinker anyway, so some fine tuning doesn't bother me. I expect a project with any vintage piece I buy anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
This is what I did with my Hi-Fi RDC. That's a 5 pole, 24 volt motor, so it probably tops out around 70 SMPH. It's capable of a pretty slow crawl.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t131/NickelPlate759/Athearn/?action=view¤t=AthearnBuddRDCcr.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I've since changed the black neoprene bands to vinyl or PVC hair bands that don't deteriorate.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
The motor is available here: http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/DCM-234/DUAL-SHAFT-DC-MOTOR/-/1.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nelson,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>          Everyone has their feelings about how certain engines run and I'm no different. I have NO complaints about my metal RDC's. I have four, one of each type (1, 2, 3,and 4) all powered. As a collector of items from many different companies I can't afford to have more. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      Each one of my four metal Athearn RDC"S was gone over when they got here. Normal servicing , nothing special. Three of the four run beautiful. The other is sluggish running in one direction ( I'm not sure if it is front wards or backwards) but not enough to discard it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Was I lucky to get items that run good, I don't know. I prefer these over the RBD (Hi-F) for better speed control and as was mentioned I don't have to keep changing bands. Again personal preference.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: Nelson 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 4:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Thanks for the responses. That gives me a ballpark figure, but I didn't know they were so problematic mechanically. I figured the vertically mounted motor was more reliable than the Hi-Fi drive, but it doesn't sound like it, unless your units were misused.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Are the bodies are stamped steel? I had assumed they were aluminum, like some older HO passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > They are not common, but do come up and has been noted there are several on ebay now. I accumulate metal RDC cars and have at least one of each variety and several of the RDC1's and RDC3's. Some of them are basically unpowered hulks, most are powered,  none, even those advertised as running, will actually make it around my track on their own power. On the faint hope of actually getting a good runner I have paid as much as $40.00 for a supposed to run version and as little as $10.00 for what turned out to be little more than a box of parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Be aware of rust.  If it looks brownish instead of bright silver then it is likely rusted to badly rusted. Even if it appears to be bright silver it still may be lightly rusted. According to one of the Athearn books the early versions were known to sometimes have rust on them before they even left the store. Athearn supposedly coated them with something to prevent rust.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Of those I have in boxes they all came in the red/ white box. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10750
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 5/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
These motors are only $1.75 each - a bargain indeed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I may try to use one of these in the Hustler.  The
                                                                                                                                                                                    
use of neoprene bands or PVC hair bands is a revelation
                                                                                                                                                                                    
to me.  I have a large supply of the anointed Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                    
bands but the others may well be a better way. The
                                                                                                                                                                                    
pics provide a good size reference for the motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks for all the info; this really is a great list. I like to tinker anyway, so some fine tuning doesn't bother me. I expect a project with any vintage piece I buy anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> This is what I did with my Hi-Fi RDC. That's a 5 pole, 24 volt motor, so it probably tops out around 70 SMPH. It's capable of a pretty slow crawl.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t131/NickelPlate759/Athearn/?action=view¤t=AthearnBuddRDCcr.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I've since changed the black neoprene bands to vinyl or PVC hair bands that don't deteriorate.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The motor is available here: http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/DCM-234/DUAL-SHAFT-DC-MOTOR/-/1.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Nelson,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >          Everyone has their feelings about how certain engines run and I'm no different. I have NO complaints about my metal RDC's. I have four, one of each type (1, 2, 3,and 4) all powered. As a collector of items from many different companies I can't afford to have more. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >      Each one of my four metal Athearn RDC"S was gone over when they got here. Normal servicing , nothing special. Three of the four run beautiful. The other is sluggish running in one direction ( I'm not sure if it is front wards or backwards) but not enough to discard it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >       Was I lucky to get items that run good, I don't know. I prefer these over the RBD (Hi-F) for better speed control and as was mentioned I don't have to keep changing bands. Again personal preference.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >                                                                          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   From: Nelson 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 4:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Thanks for the responses. That gives me a ballpark figure, but I didn't know they were so problematic mechanically. I figured the vertically mounted motor was more reliable than the Hi-Fi drive, but it doesn't sound like it, unless your units were misused.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Are the bodies are stamped steel? I had assumed they were aluminum, like some older HO passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > They are not common, but do come up and has been noted there are several on ebay now. I accumulate metal RDC cars and have at least one of each variety and several of the RDC1's and RDC3's. Some of them are basically unpowered hulks, most are powered,  none, even those advertised as running, will actually make it around my track on their own power. On the faint hope of actually getting a good runner I have paid as much as $40.00 for a supposed to run version and as little as $10.00 for what turned out to be little more than a box of parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Be aware of rust.  If it looks brownish instead of bright silver then it is likely rusted to badly rusted. Even if it appears to be bright silver it still may be lightly rusted. According to one of the Athearn books the early versions were known to sometimes have rust on them before they even left the store. Athearn supposedly coated them with something to prevent rust.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Of those I have in boxes they all came in the red/ white box. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   > Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10751
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Joe,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
These motors are much too large for a Hustler, but should fit an old Hi-Fi F7, if they're not too long. Ray M. has used them to repower various large Athearns, and I think has some tutorials up on 2 Guys & Sum Trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I tried the black neoprene hairbands first, but they rotted just like rubber bands, although it took a little longer. The better ones are made by Goody, and are available at WalMart in a multi-colored assortment of 3 different sizes, or a pack of clear bands in one size. They need to be stretched out beforehand. The clear ones also make great traction tires for larger steam, i.e. Rivarossi Casey Jones or FEF-3's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nelson....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> These motors are only $1.75 each - a bargain indeed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I may try to use one of these in the Hustler.  The
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> use of neoprene bands or PVC hair bands is a revelation
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to me.  I have a large supply of the anointed Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> bands but the others may well be a better way. The
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> pics provide a good size reference for the motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Joe O'Loughlin 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10752
						From: Fred Hultberg
						Date: 5/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: John Barlow's Comment on The Holiday
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Very well put, John!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the reminder.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    John wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    My thanks as a Vietnam Veteran to you and my thanks and remembrance to those in that theater who were not as fortunate as I was to come home. Lest we think coming home was enough, I know some who never really made it back but they walk our streets and sometimes sleep in strange places. The wounds and scars are unseen. Please don't judge them too harshly. This is their day as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    John

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10753
						From: Fred Stevens K2FRD
						Date: 5/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Holiday
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    John, as a brother Vietnam vet (Americal Division, Chu Lai, LZ Bayonet, 1970), I also remember and give thanks and memory to our fellow vets who didn't come home and to those of us who made it home but were shunned by most everyone just for being there. Without going into a detailed litany, the US participation in RVN was likely the darkest days of US history. Those of us who survived to make it back home seem to still be pariahs in our society although there are many (not all) non-vets of our age group who have come around in recent years to thinking that maybe we had no choice but to go over there, that we didn't start the war, and maybe, just maybe we were not voluntary participants in a war which started long before we were born and continued after we left although many of us still suffer the consequences many years later (I have three Agent Orange illnesses including two cancers and diabetes). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Unfortunately, many folk consider Memorial Day as just another 3-day weekend holiday without understanding nor recognizing the reasons the weekend was created, Many go boating, fishing, travel to distant relatives, or otherwise ignore or are ignorant of what we went through. This entire weekend, I received thanks from only other Vietnam vets. Not a single thanks from non-vets including my own family.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
At least one lesson learned: The returning Iraq and Afghanistan vets are not receiving the same welcome home treatment, thanks to the shame delivered upon us Vietnam veterans.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I know this is well off topic, but my intense model railroad interest is a result of my Vietnam experience, my decision to be left alone after my negative reception back home, and as a consequence my desire to seek activities which did not involve people, i.e., model railroading, which would not further burden me with guilt and scorn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nevertheless, I have a model RR layout in the middle of the Arizona desert which has drawn attention and praise from non-vets who are my age (mid-60s) and older but who do not know I'm a disabled Vietvet and who if they learned, would likely keep their distance. I'm not proud to be a Vietvet, but it was the only war we had going on at the time and we did our duty the best way we could.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>1a. Re: Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    Posted by: "John Barlow" jdenver4150@... jdenver4150
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    Date: Mon May 25, 2009 12:45 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>My thanks as a Vietnam Veteran to you and my thanks and remembrance to those in that theater who were not as fortunate as I was to come home. Lest we think coming home was enough, I know some who never really made it back but they walk our streets and sometimes sleep in strange places. The wounds and scars are unseen. Please don't judge them too harshly. This is their day as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>John 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10754
						From: asleepy60
						Date: 5/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Unknown
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Does anyone know what this is?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
It looks like a boxcab loco but it has no couplers and I don't see any way to attache couplers to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Could it be a MOW vehicle of some sort?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A photo can be found in the album: Varney Streamliners by asleepy60.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10755
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 5/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Unknown
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    No, not an MOW car- it is an early Diesel or Oil Electrc. I don't know who made it, but my friend that owns the hobby shop has one of these lettered for Ford (Automaker- they once had their own railroad for plant switching and transfer runs). For some reason, the name 'MDC/Roundhouse' speaks to me, as I think they made something at least like this at some point. I also think there are pilot assemblies missing too, and on that missing assembly is where the coupler pocket would be.

                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Tue, 5/26/09, asleepy60 <asleepy60@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: asleepy60 <asleepy60@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Unknown
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 10:47 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    






    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Does anyone know what this is?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
It looks like a boxcab loco but it has no couplers and I don't see any way to attache couplers to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Could it be a MOW vehicle of some sort?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A photo can be found in the album: Varney Streamliners by asleepy60.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10756
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 5/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Unknown
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Just had to add this:

                                                                                                                                                                                    I searched google images for 'mdc boxcab' and turned out this link

                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.victorianweb.org/cv/models/articles/rm75.html

                                                                                                                                                                                    So yes, it is very likely an MDC, and yes, it appears your pilot is gone.

                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Tue, 5/26/09, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unknown
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 11:16 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    






    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    No, not an MOW car- it is an early Diesel or Oil Electrc. I don't know who made it, but my friend that owns the hobby shop has one of these lettered for Ford (Automaker- they once had their own railroad for plant switching and transfer runs). For some reason, the name 'MDC/Roundhouse' speaks to me, as I think they made something at least like this at some point. I also think there are pilot assemblies missing too, and on that missing assembly is where the coupler pocket would be.

                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                    --- On Tue, 5/26/09, asleepy60 <asleepy60@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 asleepy60 <asleepy60@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Unknown
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 10:47 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    






    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    Does anyone know what this is?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
It looks like a boxcab loco but it has no couplers and I don't see any way to attache couplers to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Could it be a MOW vehicle of some sort?
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
A photo can be found in the album: Varney Streamliners by asleepy60.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10757
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 5/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Unknown
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    MDC box-cab. Missing the end beams and steps, looks like one top radiator cover.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
REALLY looks like someone opened the box and didn't know how to assemble it, and pitched the rest.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.org/mdclist/rhcatalog1973pg03.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Does anyone know what this is?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It looks like a boxcab loco but it has no couplers and I don't see any way to attache couplers to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Could it be a MOW vehicle of some sort?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> A photo can be found in the album: Varney Streamliners by asleepy60.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10758
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 5/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Unknown
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    MDC Model BL-9.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Here is the exploded view:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosionMdc/Assembly%20Explosion%2008L-2%20Diesel%20Switcher.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
You'll need a 28203 cooling radiator, 2) 28112 end sill retainers, 2) 28103 end sill and steps, at least.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
28209, 28208, and couplers with covers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Just had to add this:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I searched google images for 'mdc boxcab' and turned out this link
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.victorianweb.org/cv/models/articles/rm75.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> So yes, it is very likely an MDC, and yes, it appears your pilot is gone.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- On Tue, 5/26/09, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unknown
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 11:16 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>             
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       No, not an MOW car- it is an early Diesel or Oil Electrc. I don't know who made it, but my friend that owns the hobby shop has one of these lettered for Ford (Automaker- they once had their own railroad for plant switching and transfer runs). For some reason, the name 'MDC/Roundhouse' speaks to me, as I think they made something at least like this at some point. I also think there are pilot assemblies missing too, and on that missing assembly is where the coupler pocket would be.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- On Tue, 5/26/09, asleepy60 <asleepy60@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: asleepy60 <asleepy60@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Unknown
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 10:47 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Does anyone know what this is?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It looks like a boxcab loco but it has no couplers and I don't see any way to attache couplers to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Could it be a MOW vehicle of some sort?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> A photo can be found in the album: Varney Streamliners by asleepy60.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10759
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Unknown
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I'd place bets that it was the track cleaning variation, and those  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
front-end pilot parts never were assembled nor used on the model.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     On May 26, 2009, at 11:25 PM, curmudgeon wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> MDC Model BL-9.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Here is the exploded view:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.hoseeker.org/assemblyexplosionMdc/Assembly%20Explosion% 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 2008L-2%20Diesel%20Switcher.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You'll need a 28203 cooling radiator, 2) 28112 end sill retainers,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 2) 28103 end sill and steps, at least.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 28209, 28208, and couplers with covers.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Just had to add this:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I searched google images for 'mdc boxcab' and turned out this link
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://www.victorianweb.org/cv/models/articles/rm75.html
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> So yes, it is very likely an MDC, and yes, it appears your pilot  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> is gone.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> --- On Tue, 5/26/09, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> From: Stephen Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>       No, not an MOW car- it is an early Diesel or Oil Electrc. I  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> don't know who made it, but my friend that owns the hobby shop has  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> one of these lettered for Ford (Automaker- they once had their own  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> railroad for plant switching and transfer runs). For some reason,  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the name 'MDC/Roundhouse' speaks to me, as I think they made  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> something at least like this at some point. I also think there are  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> pilot assemblies missing too, and on that missing assembly is  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> where the coupler pocket would be.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> --- On Tue, 5/26/09, asleepy60 <asleepy60@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> From: asleepy60
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>       Does anyone know what this is?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> It looks like a boxcab loco but it has no couplers and I don't see  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> any way to attache couplers to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Could it be a MOW vehicle of some sort?
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> A photo can be found in the album: Varney Streamliners by asleepy60. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10760
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Nelson...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I should have been clearer.  I will probably try the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
motor in the Cary Boxcab for the Hustler.  That is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
much wider and longer than the Hustler body.  I have
                                                                                                                                                                                    
several of the Cary conversions with and without
                                                                                                                                                                                    
the rubber band drives.  Also have an uninstalled
                                                                                                                                                                                    
kit of parts for a gear drive.  Any running version
                                                                                                                                                                                    
of the Cary boxcab pulls like sin.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Your added info on the bands is also useful.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Joe,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> These motors are much too large for a Hustler, but should fit an old Hi-Fi F7, if they're not too long. Ray M. has used them to repower various large Athearns, and I think has some tutorials up on 2 Guys & Sum Trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I tried the black neoprene hairbands first, but they rotted just like rubber bands, although it took a little longer. The better ones are made by Goody, and are available at WalMart in a multi-colored assortment of 3 different sizes, or a pack of clear bands in one size. They need to be stretched out beforehand. The clear ones also make great traction tires for larger steam, i.e. Rivarossi Casey Jones or FEF-3's.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Nelson....
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > These motors are only $1.75 each - a bargain indeed.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I may try to use one of these in the Hustler.  The
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > use of neoprene bands or PVC hair bands is a revelation
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > to me.  I have a large supply of the anointed Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > bands but the others may well be a better way. The
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > pics provide a good size reference for the motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10761
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: 2 MDC 0-6-0 projects this wekend.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I posted this yesterday on Yardbird, but I thought I would share here as well...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I was kind of motivated before I came down with a nasty cold this weekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I played around with two Roundhouse locomotives. I added lights and a smoke unit to the goat and directional lighting and a smoke unit to the switcher. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have videos posted on my myspace page. Not sure how to get them here...
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Here we go...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I was able to completely hollow out the smoke stack and add the unit. Took less time than most standard headlight additions. Was really quite easy to do.  The directional lighting was completely done with parts purchased at radio shack and using a diagram I found on line. (The two 1.5V lights I pulled from my Engine & Car Lighting parts box) . I think it took an hour to hook it up. I actually constructed a mounting plate and screwed it to the base of the tender chassis so it looks as neatly done as possible.. for a first attempt.  I really just wanted to see if I could do it.  Now, I do have a question... Is it possible to increase the power to the smoke unit? I would think by putting a capacitor in line befor the unit might help, but only in one direction. or am I just blowing smoke???
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I did have one responce which suggested shortening the wire in the center. I think it makes sence too. My understanding of the wire centered in the tube, is that the heat it produces is directly proportionate to its lenth. A decrease in the length would mean a decrease in the energy needed to bring it to the same heat. Keep the power supplied to it constant and you produce more heat with the shorter length.  Has anyone ever tried this??
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    One thing I must note:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The addition of the directional lighting and the use of the 1.5v lights eliminated the need for any constant intensity unit. It appears as if the lights go almost to full power immediately upon application of the throttle.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Note the screw in the center of the chassis holding the directional lighting unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Now for the Goat:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The smokestack is the smoke unit. I added a brass sleve to give it a little more girth as well as an additional sleve at the base to give the appearance of a mounting plate. This one required more work. I was not able to salvage the original stack since it was tapred. I learned the hard way that the smoke units can no be shortened in length without destroying them. I went through three getting this one done before deciding to totally reconstruct the stack. It worked out well and I was able to solder on a new generator vent pipe anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10762
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Holiday
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
Your message was not off subject in relation to what we were
supposed to be celebrating.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I write this message to give tribute where tribute is due...  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
THANKS FOR FREEDOM TO YOU AND TO ALL OTHERS WHO HAVE SERVED!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To all of you who are vets of any military service and/or
conflicts...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
There are among us in this country people who appreciate no one and
nothing who hate anything and anyone that reminds them that there is
anything to life more than their fun and enjoyment.  They are not the
ones who won our freedom nor are they the ones who have kept it for us
by serving as Soldiers/Sailors/Marines/Air Force/Coast Guard nor even
as Peace Keepers here in the homeland.  They are just as much the
inheritors of the secured rights as are all of our citizens but they
just do not recognize that freedom is not free...  It must have
continuous payment and perseverance if it is to continue as we have
known it.  Our veterans of all military service have seen to that for
us whether they fought or whether they served in peace time.  Peace
keepers of both law enforcement and the military have seldom been
understood and few among us recognize that without them there would be
no United States of America as we know it today.  Peace Keepers serve
because they are needed.  Peace Keepers serve whether they are
understood or not.  Peace Keepers took an oath to serve and to defend
our nation whatever the cost including separation from loved ones,
injury or death.  We have no greater group of people among us than our
Veterans.  If you can read this, thank a teacher.  If you are free to
express your opinion, thank a Veteran and the Peace Keepers currently
serving in the military and law enforcement.  We are who we are today
because of these people and because of our right to make our own
choices because they stood for, stand for and defend that right for us.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Staton, Chaplain to Peace Keepers...  Train and Railroad Lover
                                                                                                                                                                                    
=============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    John, as a brother Vietnam vet (Americal Division, Chu Lai, LZ
Bayonet, 1970), I also remember and give thanks and memory to our
fellow vets who didn't come home and to those of us who made it home
but were shunned by most everyone just for being there. Without going
into a detailed litany, the US participation in RVN was likely the
darkest days of US history. Those of us who survived to make it back
home seem to still be pariahs in our society although there are many
(not all) non-vets of our age group who have come around in recent
years to thinking that maybe we had no choice but to go over there,
that we didn't start the war, and maybe, just maybe we were not
voluntary participants in a war which started long before we were born
and continued after we left although many of us still suffer the
consequences many years later (I have three Agent Orange illnesses
including two cancers and diabetes). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Unfortunately, many folk consider Memorial Day as just another 3-day
weekend holiday without understanding nor recognizing the reasons the
weekend was created, Many go boating, fishing, travel to distant
relatives, or otherwise ignore or are ignorant of what we went through.
This entire weekend, I received thanks from only other Vietnam vets.
Not a single thanks from non-vets including my own family.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
At least one lesson learned: The returning Iraq and Afghanistan vets
are not receiving the same welcome home treatment, thanks to the shame
delivered upon us Vietnam veterans.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I know this is well off topic, but my intense model railroad interest
is a result of my Vietnam experience, my decision to be left alone
after my negative reception back home, and as a consequence my desire
to seek activities which did not involve people, i.e., model
railroading, which would not further burden me with guilt and scorn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nevertheless, I have a model RR layout in the middle of the Arizona
desert which has drawn attention and praise from non-vets who are my
age (mid-60s) and older but who do not know I'm a disabled Vietvet and
who if they learned, would likely keep their distance. I'm not proud to
be a Vietvet, but it was the only war we had going on at the time and
we did our duty the best way we could.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>1a. Re: Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Posted by: "John Barlow" jdenver4150@ yahoo.com
jdenver4150
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Mon May 25, 2009 12:45 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>My thanks as a Vietnam Veteran to you and my thanks and remembrance
to those in that theater who were not as fortunate as I was to come
home. Lest we think coming home was enough, I know some who never
really made it back but they walk our streets and sometimes sleep in
strange places. The wounds and scars are unseen. Please don't judge
them too harshly. This is their day as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>John
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10763
						From: Henry Hultgren
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Holiday
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank you Don , My family go back to the time of Wm. Penn , we have served in every conflict in this nations history . As a Viet Vet , I can be thankful that the Vets coming back from this round of harm will not be treated as we were . Thank you Chaplain , and to all the others who served , my apologies for the post slightly off topic . Henry H. --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> /Your message was not off subject in relation to what we were supposed 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to be celebrating.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I write this message to give tribute where tribute is due...  *
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> THANKS FOR FREEDOM TO YOU AND TO ALL OTHERS WHO HAVE SERVED!!!*
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> *To all of you who are vets of any military service and/or conflicts...*
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> There are among us in this country people who appreciate no one and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> nothing who hate anything and anyone that reminds them that there is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> anything to life more than their fun and enjoyment.  They are not the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ones who won our freedom nor are they the ones who have kept it for us 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> by serving as Soldiers/Sailors/Marines/Air Force/Coast Guard nor even as 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Peace Keepers here in the homeland.  They are just as much the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> inheritors of the secured rights as are all of our citizens but they 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> just do not recognize that freedom is not free...  It must have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> continuous payment and perseverance if it is to continue as we have 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> known it.  Our veterans of all military service have seen to that for us 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> whether they fought or whether they served in peace time.  Peace keepers 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of both law enforcement and the military have seldom been understood and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> few among us recognize that without them there would be no United States 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of America as we know it today.  Peace Keepers serve because they are 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> needed.  Peace Keepers serve whether they are understood or not.  Peace 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Keepers took an oath to serve and to defend our nation whatever the cost 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> including separation from loved ones, injury or death.  We have no 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> greater group of people among us than our Veterans.  If you can read 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> this, thank a teacher.  If you are free to express your opinion, thank a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Veteran and the Peace Keepers currently serving in the military and law 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> enforcement.  We are who we are today because of these people and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> because of our right to make our own choices because they stood for, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> stand for and defend that right for us.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Staton, Chaplain to Peace Keepers...  Train and Railroad Lover
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> =============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> /
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > John, as a brother Vietnam vet (Americal Division, Chu Lai, LZ 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Bayonet, 1970), I also remember and give thanks and memory to our 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > fellow vets who didn't come home and to those of us who made it home 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > but were shunned by most everyone just for being there. Without going 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > into a detailed litany, the US participation in RVN was likely the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > darkest days of US history. Those of us who survived to make it back 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > home seem to still be pariahs in our society although there are many 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > (not all) non-vets of our age group who have come around in recent 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > years to thinking that maybe we had no choice but to go over there, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > that we didn't start the war, and maybe, just maybe we were not 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > voluntary participants in a war which started long before we were born 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > and continued after we left although many of us still suffer the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > consequences many years later (I have three Agent Orange illnesses 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > including two cancers and diabetes).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Unfortunately, many folk consider Memorial Day as just another 3-day 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > weekend holiday without understanding nor recognizing the reasons the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > weekend was created, Many go boating, fishing, travel to distant 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > relatives, or otherwise ignore or are ignorant of what we went 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > through. This entire weekend, I received thanks from only other 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Vietnam vets. Not a single thanks from non-vets including my own family.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > At least one lesson learned: The returning Iraq and Afghanistan vets 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > are not receiving the same welcome home treatment, thanks to the shame 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > delivered upon us Vietnam veterans.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I know this is well off topic, but my intense model railroad interest 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > is a result of my Vietnam experience, my decision to be left alone 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > after my negative reception back home, and as a consequence my desire 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > to seek activities which did not involve people, i.e., model 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > railroading, which would not further burden me with guilt and scorn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Nevertheless, I have a model RR layout in the middle of the Arizona 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > desert which has drawn attention and praise from non-vets who are my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > age (mid-60s) and older but who do not know I'm a disabled Vietvet and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > who if they learned, would likely keep their distance. I'm not proud 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > to be a Vietvet, but it was the only war we had going on at the time 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > and we did our duty the best way we could.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >__________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >1a. Re: Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Posted by: "John Barlow" jdenver4150@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > <mailto:jdenver4150%40yahoo.com> jdenver4150
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Date: Mon May 25, 2009 12:45 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >My thanks as a Vietnam Veteran to you and my thanks and remembrance 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > to those in that theater who were not as fortunate as I was to come 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > home. Lest we think coming home was enough, I know some who never 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > really made it back but they walk our streets and sometimes sleep in 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > strange places. The wounds and scars are unseen. Please don't judge 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > them too harshly. This is their day as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >John
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10764
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Holiday
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don S,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                          When I wrote 
the little message for Memorial Day, that we should not forget, it was 
to say I didn't forget and would not. You said it so eloquently that I applaud 
you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't believe it off topic to 
say thanks to people who serve, from any war or conflict, because without 
them we would not be able to discuss any topic, let 
alone trains. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 10:25 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Your message was not off subject in relation to what we were supposed to 
  be celebrating.
                                                                                                                                                                                    I write this message to give tribute where tribute is 
  due...  
                                                                                                                                                                                    THANKS FOR FREEDOM TO YOU AND TO ALL OTHERS WHO HAVE 
  SERVED!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                    To all of you who are vets of any military service and/or 
  conflicts...
                                                                                                                                                                                    There are among us in this country people who appreciate 
  no one and nothing who hate anything and anyone that reminds them that there 
  is anything to life more than their fun and enjoyment.  They are not the 
  ones who won our freedom nor are they the ones who have kept it for us by 
  serving as Soldiers/Sailors/ Marines/Air Force/Coast Guard nor even as 
  Peace Keepers here in the homeland.  They are just as much the inheritors 
  of the secured rights as are all of our citizens but they just do not 
  recognize that freedom is not free...  It must have continuous payment 
  and perseverance if it is to continue as we have known it.  Our veterans 
  of all military service have seen to that for us whether they fought or 
  whether they served in peace time.  Peace keepers of both law enforcement 
  and the military have seldom been understood and few among us recognize that 
  without them there would be no United States of America as we know it 
  today.  Peace Keepers serve because they are needed.  Peace Keepers 
  serve whether they are understood or not.  Peace Keepers took an oath to 
  serve and to defend our nation whatever the cost including separation from 
  loved ones, injury or death.  We have no greater group of people among us 
  than our Veterans.  If you can read this, thank a teacher.  If you 
  are free to express your opinion, thank a Veteran and the Peace Keepers 
  currently serving in the military and law enforcement.  We are who we are 
  today because of these people and because of our right to make our own choices 
  because they stood for, stand for and defend that right for us.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Don 
  Staton, Chaplain to Peace Keepers...  Train and Railroad 
  Lover
                                                                                                                                                                                    ============ ========= ========= ========= ======



                                                                                                                                                                                    Fred 
  Stevens K2FRD wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    John, as a brother Vietnam vet (Americal Division, Chu Lai, LZ Bayonet, 
    1970), I also remember and give thanks and memory to our fellow vets who 
    didn't come home and to those of us who made it home but were shunned by 
    most everyone just for being there. Without going into a detailed litany, 
    the US participation in RVN was likely the darkest days of US history. Those 
    of us who survived to make it back home seem to still be pariahs in our 
    society although there are many (not all) non-vets of our age group who have 
    come around in recent years to thinking that maybe we had no choice but to 
    go over there, that we didn't start the war, and maybe, just maybe we were 
    not voluntary participants in a war which started long before we were born 
    and continued after we left although many of us still suffer the 
    consequences many years later (I have three Agent Orange illnesses including 
    two cancers and diabetes). 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Unfortunately, many folk consider 
    Memorial Day as just another 3-day weekend holiday without understanding nor 
    recognizing the reasons the weekend was created, Many go boating, fishing, 
    travel to distant relatives, or otherwise ignore or are ignorant of what we 
    went through. This entire weekend, I received thanks from only other Vietnam 
    vets. Not a single thanks from non-vets including my own family.

                                                                                                                                                                                    At 
    least one lesson learned: The returning Iraq and Afghanistan vets are not 
    receiving the same welcome home treatment, thanks to the shame delivered 
    upon us Vietnam veterans.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I know this is well off topic, but my 
    intense model railroad interest is a result of my Vietnam experience, my 
    decision to be left alone after my negative reception back home, and as a 
    consequence my desire to seek activities which did not involve people, i.e., 
    model railroading, which would not further burden me with guilt and 
    scorn.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Nevertheless, I have a model RR layout in the middle of the 
    Arizona desert which has drawn attention and praise from non-vets who are my 
    age (mid-60s) and older but who do not know I'm a disabled Vietvet and who 
    if they learned, would likely keep their distance. I'm not proud to be a 
    Vietvet, but it was the only war we had going on at the time and we did our 
    duty the best way we could.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Fred 
    Stevens

                                                                                                                                                                                    >___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                    >1a. 
    Re: Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Posted by: "John Barlow" jdenver4150@ yahoo.com jdenver4150
                                                                                                                                                                                    > Date: Mon May 
    25, 2009 12:45 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                    >My thanks as a Vietnam Veteran to 
    you and my thanks and remembrance to those in that theater who were not as 
    fortunate as I was to come home. Lest we think coming home was enough, I 
    know some who never really made it back but they walk our streets and 
    sometimes sleep in strange places. The wounds and scars are unseen. Please 
    don't judge them too harshly. This is their day as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    >John
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10765
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Holiday
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
I have devoted my life to saying "THANKS" to the people who have
served to keep us safe and give us a chance to live as we choose. 
Thank you for the response.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                    
================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don S,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          When I wrote the little
message for Memorial Day, that we should not forget, it was to say I
didn't forget and would not. You said it so eloquently that I applaud
you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't believe it off topic to
say thanks to people who serve, from any war or conflict, because
without them we would not be able to discuss any topic, let
alone trains. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent:
Wednesday, May 27, 2009 10:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject:
Re: [vintageHO] Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Your message was not off subject in relation to what we were
supposed to be celebrating.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I write this message to give tribute where tribute is due...  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
THANKS FOR FREEDOM TO YOU AND TO ALL OTHERS WHO HAVE SERVED!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    To all of you who are vets of any military service and/or
conflicts...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
There are among us in this country people who appreciate no one and
nothing who hate anything and anyone that reminds them that there is
anything to life more than their fun and enjoyment.  They are not the
ones who won our freedom nor are they the ones who have kept it for us
by serving as Soldiers/Sailors/ Marines/Air Force/Coast Guard nor
even as Peace Keepers here in the homeland.  They are just as much the
inheritors of the secured rights as are all of our citizens but they
just do not recognize that freedom is not free...  It must have
continuous payment and perseverance if it is to continue as we have
known it.  Our veterans of all military service have seen to that for
us whether they fought or whether they served in peace time.  Peace
keepers of both law enforcement and the military have seldom been
understood and few among us recognize that without them there would be
no United States of America as we know it today.  Peace Keepers serve
because they are needed.  Peace Keepers serve whether they are
understood or not.  Peace Keepers took an oath to serve and to defend
our nation whatever the cost including separation from loved ones,
injury or death.  We have no greater group of people among us than our
Veterans.  If you can read this, thank a teacher.  If you are free to
express your opinion, thank a Veteran and the Peace Keepers currently
serving in the military and law enforcement.  We are who we are today
because of these people and because of our right to make our own
choices because they stood for, stand for and defend that right for us.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Staton, Chaplain to Peace Keepers...  Train and Railroad Lover
                                                                                                                                                                                    
============ ========= ========= ========= ======
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    John, as a brother Vietnam vet (Americal Division, Chu Lai, LZ
Bayonet, 1970), I also remember and give thanks and memory to our
fellow vets who didn't come home and to those of us who made it home
but were shunned by most everyone just for being there. Without going
into a detailed litany, the US participation in RVN was likely the
darkest days of US history. Those of us who survived to make it back
home seem to still be pariahs in our society although there are many
(not all) non-vets of our age group who have come around in recent
years to thinking that maybe we had no choice but to go over there,
that we didn't start the war, and maybe, just maybe we were not
voluntary participants in a war which started long before we were born
and continued after we left although many of us still suffer the
consequences many years later (I have three Agent Orange illnesses
including two cancers and diabetes). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Unfortunately, many folk consider Memorial Day as just another 3-day
weekend holiday without understanding nor recognizing the reasons the
weekend was created, Many go boating, fishing, travel to distant
relatives, or otherwise ignore or are ignorant of what we went through.
This entire weekend, I received thanks from only other Vietnam vets.
Not a single thanks from non-vets including my own family.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
At least one lesson learned: The returning Iraq and Afghanistan vets
are not receiving the same welcome home treatment, thanks to the shame
delivered upon us Vietnam veterans.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
I know this is well off topic, but my intense model railroad interest
is a result of my Vietnam experience, my decision to be left alone
after my negative reception back home, and as a consequence my desire
to seek activities which did not involve people, i.e., model
railroading, which would not further burden me with guilt and scorn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nevertheless, I have a model RR layout in the middle of the Arizona
desert which has drawn attention and praise from non-vets who are my
age (mid-60s) and older but who do not know I'm a disabled Vietvet and
who if they learned, would likely keep their distance. I'm not proud to
be a Vietvet, but it was the only war we had going on at the time and
we did our duty the best way we could.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>1a. Re: Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Posted by: "John Barlow" jdenver4150@ yahoo.com
jdenver4150
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Mon May 25, 2009 12:45 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>My thanks as a Vietnam Veteran to you and my thanks and remembrance
to those in that theater who were not as fortunate as I was to come
home. Lest we think coming home was enough, I know some who never
really made it back but they walk our streets and sometimes sleep in
strange places. The wounds and scars are unseen. Please don't judge
them too harshly. This is their day as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>John
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10766
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 2 MDC 0-6-0 projects this wekend.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    I  hate to dump water on your project--but you 
are inviting problems down the line with the smoke units.  That "smoke" is 
vaporized oil--and eventually it has to settle out somewhere--usually on other 
things on the layout, the walls, curtains, the cat, the kids, or whatever else 
is there. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    John Allen had an item in MR  (or possibly 
RMC) about this--he had several smoke units on the G&D.  He had begun 
to wonder about the gunk he was having to clean off the rails and that was 
showing up on the buildings.  Disconnected  the smoke units and no 
more problems.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 6:58 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] 2 MDC 0-6-0 projects 
  this wekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I posted this yesterday on Yardbird, but I 
  thought I would share here as well...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I was kind of motivated before I came down with a 
  nasty cold this weekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I played around with two Roundhouse locomotives. I 
  added lights and a smoke unit to the goat and directional lighting and a smoke 
  unit to the switcher. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I have videos posted on my myspace page. Not sure 
  how to get them here...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Here we go...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I was able to completely hollow out the smoke stack and add the unit. Took 
  less time than most standard headlight additions. Was really quite easy to 
  do.  The directional lighting was completely done with parts purchased at 
  radio shack and using a 
  diagram I found on line. (The two 1.5V lights I pulled from my 
  Engine & Car Lighting parts box) . I think it took an hour to 
  hook it up. I actually constructed a mounting plate and screwed it to the base 
  of the tender chassis so it looks as neatly done as possible.. for a first 
  attempt.  I really just wanted to see if I could do it.  
  Now, I do have a question... Is it possible to 
  increase the power to the smoke unit? I would think by putting a capacitor in 
  line befor the unit might help, but only in one direction. or am I just 
  blowing smoke???
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I did have one responce which suggested shortening the wire in the center. 
  I think it makes sence too. My understanding of the wire centered in the tube, 
  is that the heat it produces is directly proportionate to its lenth. A 
  decrease in the length would mean a decrease in the energy needed to bring it 
  to the same heat. Keep the power supplied to it constant and you produce more 
  heat with the shorter length.  Has anyone ever 
  tried this??
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    One thing I must note:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    The addition of the directional lighting and the use of the 1.5v lights 
  eliminated the need for any constant intensity unit. It appears as if the 
  lights go almost to full 
  power immediately upon application of the throttle.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Note the screw in the center of the chassis holding the directional 
  lighting unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Now for the Goat:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    The smokestack is the smoke unit. I added a brass sleve to give it a little 
  more girth as well as an additional sleve at the base to give the appearance 
  of a mounting plate. This one required more work. I was not able to salvage 
  the original stack since it was tapred. I learned the hard way that the smoke 
  units can no be shortened in length without destroying them. I went through 
  three getting this one done before deciding to totally reconstruct the stack. 
  It worked out well and I was able to solder on a new generator vent pipe 
  anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    

  

                                                                                                                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10767
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 2 MDC 0-6-0 projects this wekend.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Glenn,
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I am sure all this is very true.. we won't tell my wife.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Running them with the units empty does not hurt the units and I so very seldom run trains that it really makes little difference. .. to me that is...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    so quit peeing in my wheaties...!  (;P)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 4:15:45 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2 MDC 0-6-0 projects this wekend.

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I  hate to dump water on your project--but you are inviting problems down the line with the smoke units.  That "smoke" is vaporized oil--and eventually it has to settle out somewhere--usually on other things on the layout, the walls, curtains, the cat, the kids, or whatever else is there. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    John Allen had an item in MR  (or possibly RMC) about this--he had several smoke units on the G&D.  He had begun to wonder about the gunk he was having to clean off the rails and that was showing up on the buildings.  Disconnected  the smoke units and no more problems.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 6:58 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] 2 MDC 0-6-0 projects this wekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I posted this yesterday on Yardbird, but I thought I would share here as well...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I was kind of motivated before I came down with a nasty cold this weekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I played around with two Roundhouse locomotives. I added lights and a smoke unit to the goat and directional lighting and a smoke unit to the switcher. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I have videos posted on my myspace page. Not sure how to get them here...
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Here we go...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I was able to completely hollow out the smoke stack and add the unit. Took less time than most standard headlight additions. Was really quite easy to do.  The directional lighting was completely done with parts purchased at radio shack and using a diagram I found on line. (The two 1.5V lights I pulled from my Engine & Car Lighting parts box) . I think it took an hour to hook it up. I actually constructed a mounting plate and screwed it to the base of the tender chassis so it looks as neatly done as possible.. for a first attempt.  I really just wanted to see if I could do it.  Now, I do have a question... Is it possible to increase the power to the smoke unit? I would think by putting a capacitor in line befor the unit might help, but only in one direction. or am I just blowing smoke???
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I did have one responce which suggested shortening the wire in the center. I think it makes sence too. My understanding of the wire centered in the tube, is that the heat it produces is directly proportionate to its lenth. A decrease in the length would mean a decrease in the energy needed to bring it to the same heat. Keep the power supplied to it constant and you produce more heat with the shorter length.  Has anyone ever tried this??
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    One thing I must note:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The addition of the directional lighting and the use of the 1.5v lights eliminated the need for any constant intensity unit. It appears as if the lights go almost to full power immediately upon application of the throttle.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Note the screw in the center of the chassis holding the directional lighting unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Now for the Goat:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    The smokestack is the smoke unit. I added a brass sleve to give it a little more girth as well as an additional sleve at the base to give the appearance of a mounting plate. This one required more work. I was not able to salvage the original stack since it was tapred. I learned the hard way that the smoke units can no be shortened in length without destroying them. I went through three getting this one done before deciding to totally reconstruct the stack. It worked out well and I was able to solder on a new generator vent pipe anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10768
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Silver Streak, was - Santa Fe reefer ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 




 


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jay and Ray, I think I have all of the
various additions added now.
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Chuck, While the group was on this discussion, I
checked out the spread sheet we did on this, finding some omissions. I've since
made the time to check into what was missing, so with your help, maybe you'd
like to up-load them when you get a chance. I don't think that leaves very many
missing car numbers at all, although I can't supply those few at this time as
my collection of them is not quite complete. Please add the following cars
and/or car numbers:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Walthers Early Production --
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Standard Caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Maintenance of Way:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
(Chuck, All cars used the same numbers as the Walthers Early production, all
cars are Reefer Gray) --
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-801 -- MW430
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
929-806 -- MW97
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks Chuck, that's all I have up to this point. Ray F W.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"erieberk" <erieberk@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Jay, I've also found five versions of the Silver Streak Sante Fe
 
                                                                                                                                                                                    reefers listed in the 1950 Model R.R. Equipment Corp.'s catalog, even though
only one Sante Fe version is listed in their 1953 catalog. As Carmen
("Ma") Webster has been known to be wrong more than once, I question
whether there actually were 5 versions of the Sante Fe reefer produced by
Silver Streak. Would you have anything else besides Webster's catalog to verify
this? I will admit, it's an odd coincidence that she lists FOUR of the versions
which Walthers introduced in 1978 as NEW, but then these were all
prototypically named AT&SF (SFRD) reefer versions so to use any other names
would have been blatently wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10769
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 2 MDC 0-6-0 projects this wekend.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                    Bachmann cautions against running their large scale 
smoke units empty--so provides an off switch--to save the unit  
gj    8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 1:34 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2 MDC 0-6-0 
  projects this wekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Glenn,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    I am sure all this is very true.. we won't tell my wife.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Running them with the units empty does not hurt the units and I so very 
  seldom run trains that it really makes little difference. .. to me that 
  is...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    so quit peeing in my wheaties...!  (;P)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 4:15:45 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2 
  MDC 0-6-0 projects this wekend.

                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    I  hate to dump water on your project--but 
  you are inviting problems down the line with the smoke units.  That 
  "smoke" is vaporized oil--and eventually it has to settle out 
  somewhere--usually on other things on the layout, the walls, curtains, the 
  cat, the kids, or whatever else is there. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    John Allen had an item in MR  (or possibly 
  RMC) about this--he had several smoke units on the G&D.  He had begun 
  to wonder about the gunk he was having to clean off the rails and that was 
  showing up on the buildings.  Disconnected  the smoke units and no 
  more problems.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 6:58 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] 2 MDC 0-6-0 
    projects this wekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    I posted this yesterday on Yardbird, but I 
    thought I would share here as well...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    I was kind of motivated before I came down with a 
    nasty cold this weekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    I played around with two Roundhouse locomotives. 
    I added lights and a smoke unit to the goat and directional lighting and a 
    smoke unit to the switcher. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    I have videos posted on my myspace page. Not sure 
    how to get them here...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Here we go...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    I was able to completely hollow out the smoke stack and add the unit. 
    Took less time than most standard headlight additions. Was really quite easy 
    to do.  The directional lighting was completely done with parts 
    purchased at radio shack and using a diagram I found on line. (The two 
    1.5V lights I pulled from my Engine & Car Lighting parts 
    box) . I think it took an hour to hook it up. I actually constructed a 
    mounting plate and screwed it to the base of the tender chassis so it looks 
    as neatly done as possible.. for a first attempt.  I really just wanted 
    to see if I could do it.  Now, I do have 
    a question... Is it possible to increase the power to the smoke unit? I 
    would think by putting a capacitor in line befor the unit might help, but 
    only in one direction. or am I just blowing 
smoke???
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    I did have one responce which suggested shortening the wire in the 
    center. I think it makes sence too. My understanding of the wire centered in 
    the tube, is that the heat it produces is directly proportionate to its 
    lenth. A decrease in the length would mean a decrease in the energy needed 
    to bring it to the same heat. Keep the power supplied to it constant and you 
    produce more heat with the shorter length.  Has anyone ever tried this??
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    One thing I must note:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    The addition of the directional lighting and the use of the 1.5v lights 
    eliminated the need for any constant intensity unit. It appears as if the 
    lights go almost to full power immediately upon application of the 
    throttle.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Note the screw in the center of the chassis holding the directional 
    lighting unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    Now for the Goat:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    The smokestack is the smoke unit. I added a brass sleve to give it a 
    little more girth as well as an additional sleve at the base to give the 
    appearance of a mounting plate. This one required more work. I was not able 
    to salvage the original stack since it was tapred. I learned the hard way 
    that the smoke units can no be shortened in length without destroying them. 
    I went through three getting this one done before deciding to totally 
    reconstruct the stack. It worked out well and I was able to solder on a new 
    generator vent pipe anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                    

    

                                                                                                                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Checked by AVG - 
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                                                                                                                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10770
						From: Chris B
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 2 MDC 0-6-0 projects this wekend.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Hey Sean,  Since you're having such success in the shop, maybe you should buy the Wheaties box car on eBay, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    and rig it up with a tank of cleaning fluid to spray the ROW behind your smokey stover engines!

                                                                                                                                                                                    It might be the first time Wheaties peed back!

                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday,
 May 27, 2009 4:34:56 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2 MDC 0-6-0 projects this wekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Glenn,
                                                                                                                                                                                    I am sure all this is very true.. we won't tell my wife.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Running them with the units empty does not hurt the units and I so very seldom run trains that it really makes little difference. .. to me that is...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    so quit peeing in my wheaties...!  (;P)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                     

  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    


                                                                                                                                                                                    
     
                                                                                                                                                                                    


	    
	    
                                                                                                                                                                                    
	      		
                                                                                                                                                                                    
	
	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10771
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Well that makes more sense. ;-)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I snapped this photo of a spare motor with a Hustler frame for a size comparison. It looks like you could just loop the bands over the motor shaft. It will sure be a lot quieter than this Ernst kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t131/NickelPlate759/Athearn/?action=view¤t=DSCF1630-1000x750.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nelson...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I should have been clearer.  I will probably try the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> motor in the Cary Boxcab for the Hustler.  That is 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> much wider and longer than the Hustler body.  I have
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> several of the Cary conversions with and without
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the rubber band drives.  Also have an uninstalled
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> kit of parts for a gear drive.  Any running version
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of the Cary boxcab pulls like sin.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Your added info on the bands is also useful.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Joe O'Loughlin 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10772
						From: solly_46
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: wanted  older  athearn loco f7a gear
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    please view photos athearn gear needed 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Looking for a gear for older Athearn F7A engine. Two individuals said it was an old Athearn, one thought it was a Mantua.  All my boxes are labeled Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Trucks are metal sides. Screw hold them on. Engine must be 40+ years old. Had when I was a child.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
There are two screws that hold the engine. There are two weights on each side of the motor. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Randy
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
solly_46@...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10773
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Holiday
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Fred,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
It sounds like you made something very positive out of a terrible situation. The reception you returned to was a crime. As far as anyone who might still shun you if they discovered you were a Vietnam vet, THEY are the ones who should be ashamed (and given a good hard kick in the butt to boot), not you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks for your service,
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John, as a brother Vietnam vet (Americal Division, Chu Lai, LZ Bayonet, 1970), I also remember and give thanks and memory to our fellow vets who didn't come home and to those of us who made it home but were shunned by most everyone just for being there. Without going into a detailed litany, the US participation in RVN was likely the darkest days of US history. Those of us who survived to make it back home seem to still be pariahs in our society although there are many (not all) non-vets of our age group who have come around in recent years to thinking that maybe we had no choice but to go over there, that we didn't start the war, and maybe, just maybe we were not voluntary participants in a war which started long before we were born and continued after we left although many of us still suffer the consequences many years later (I have three Agent Orange illnesses including two cancers and diabetes). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Unfortunately, many folk consider Memorial Day as just another 3-day weekend holiday without understanding nor recognizing the reasons the weekend was created, Many go boating, fishing, travel to distant relatives, or otherwise ignore or are ignorant of what we went through. This entire weekend, I received thanks from only other Vietnam vets. Not a single thanks from non-vets including my own family.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> At least one lesson learned: The returning Iraq and Afghanistan vets are not receiving the same welcome home treatment, thanks to the shame delivered upon us Vietnam veterans.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I know this is well off topic, but my intense model railroad interest is a result of my Vietnam experience, my decision to be left alone after my negative reception back home, and as a consequence my desire to seek activities which did not involve people, i.e., model railroading, which would not further burden me with guilt and scorn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nevertheless, I have a model RR layout in the middle of the Arizona desert which has drawn attention and praise from non-vets who are my age (mid-60s) and older but who do not know I'm a disabled Vietvet and who if they learned, would likely keep their distance. I'm not proud to be a Vietvet, but it was the only war we had going on at the time and we did our duty the best way we could.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Fred Stevens 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10774
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    A bunch of years ago the guys in PNR in the Eugene, OR area adapted the Cub 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Scouts' "Pinewood Derby" gravity races with HO boxcars--then progressed to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hustler races. They had "stock" and "Open" classes--I tried to suggest that 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
they have this as an event at the NMRA National in Eugene in 1987--but I 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
guess that at that time the supply of Hustlers was thin.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Nelson" <greenbrier614@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 2:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Well that makes more sense. ;-)
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I snapped this photo of a spare motor with a Hustler frame for a size 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> comparison. It looks like you could just loop the bands over the motor 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> shaft. It will sure be a lot quieter than this Ernst kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t131/NickelPlate759/Athearn/?action=view¤t=DSCF1630-1000x750.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Nelson...
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I should have been clearer.  I will probably try the
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> motor in the Cary Boxcab for the Hustler.  That is
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> much wider and longer than the Hustler body.  I have
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> several of the Cary conversions with and without
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the rubber band drives.  Also have an uninstalled
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> kit of parts for a gear drive.  Any running version
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> of the Cary boxcab pulls like sin.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Your added info on the bands is also useful.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.42/2137 - Release Date: 05/27/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
07:50:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10775
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Holiday
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Just like the rest of us (and it wasn't just US Army and Marines getting off the plane at SFO), next one any of us sees giving any serviceman (or Veteran) a hard time, you'll see it on the six on the six o'clock news.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Being Submarines it was A) difficult to get in-county, and B) getting the Navy to officially 'fess up to the presence of one of out boats inside territorial waters, all just about any of us can say is "Vietnam Era".
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I was on Big, Black and Never Come Bak Fast Attack boats, nuke, of course, in from '68-'74.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
Turn off the lights, I still glow in the dark.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     > Fred,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It sounds like you made something very positive out of a terrible situation. The reception you returned to was a crime. As far as anyone who might still shun you if they discovered you were a Vietnam vet, THEY are the ones who should be ashamed (and given a good hard kick in the butt to boot), not you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks for your service,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > John, as a brother Vietnam vet (Americal Division, Chu Lai, LZ Bayonet, 1970), I also remember and give thanks and memory to our fellow vets who didn't come home and to those of us who made it home but were shunned by most everyone just for being there. Without going into a detailed litany, the US participation in RVN was likely the darkest days of US history. Those of us who survived to make it back home seem to still be pariahs in our society although there are many (not all) non-vets of our age group who have come around in recent years to thinking that maybe we had no choice but to go over there, that we didn't start the war, and maybe, just maybe we were not voluntary participants in a war which started long before we were born and continued after we left although many of us still suffer the consequences many years later (I have three Agent Orange illnesses including two cancers and diabetes). 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Unfortunately, many folk consider Memorial Day as just another 3-day weekend holiday without understanding nor recognizing the reasons the weekend was created, Many go boating, fishing, travel to distant relatives, or otherwise ignore or are ignorant of what we went through. This entire weekend, I received thanks from only other Vietnam vets. Not a single thanks from non-vets including my own family.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > At least one lesson learned: The returning Iraq and Afghanistan vets are not receiving the same welcome home treatment, thanks to the shame delivered upon us Vietnam veterans.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I know this is well off topic, but my intense model railroad interest is a result of my Vietnam experience, my decision to be left alone after my negative reception back home, and as a consequence my desire to seek activities which did not involve people, i.e., model railroading, which would not further burden me with guilt and scorn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Nevertheless, I have a model RR layout in the middle of the Arizona desert which has drawn attention and praise from non-vets who are my age (mid-60s) and older but who do not know I'm a disabled Vietvet and who if they learned, would likely keep their distance. I'm not proud to be a Vietvet, but it was the only war we had going on at the time and we did our duty the best way we could.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10776
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: 2 MDC 0-6-0 projects this wekend. [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    That was so funny Chris..
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    This is a perfect example why you should not be looking at email while driving home from work...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    I was laughing so hard, I almost wrecked!
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 5:29:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2 MDC 0-6-0 projects this wekend. [1 Attachment]

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hey Sean,  Since you're having such success in the shop, maybe you should buy the Wheaties box car on eBay, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    and rig it up with a tank of cleaning fluid to spray the ROW behind your smokey stover engines!

                                                                                                                                                                                    It might be the first time Wheaties peed back!

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 4:34:56 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2 MDC 0-6-0 projects this wekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Glenn,
                                                                                                                                                                                    I am sure all this is very true.. we won't tell my wife.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Running them with the units empty does not hurt the units and I so very seldom run trains that it really makes little difference. .. to me that is...
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    so quit peeing in my wheaties...!  (;P)
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10777
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 5/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Holiday
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    I never got that sort of greeting at SFO--perhaps because I was coming off 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
westbound flights--IO didn't have to go to Nam--I was at the "repair shop" 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
at Walter Reed--I did assist a buddy M.E. type) who was working on better 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
artificial limbs--with an introduction to small motors (wonder how a model 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
railroader would have known about those??)    he was working on a realistic 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
artificial hand that As I recall wound up with a Pittman motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
I was there 1966-67--made SP-5.
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 4:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Just like the rest of us (and it wasn't just US Army and Marines getting 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> off the plane at SFO), next one any of us sees giving any serviceman (or 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Veteran) a hard time, you'll see it on the six on the six o'clock news.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Being Submarines it was A) difficult to get in-county, and B) getting the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Navy to officially 'fess up to the presence of one of out boats inside 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> territorial waters, all just about any of us can say is "Vietnam Era".
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I was on Big, Black and Never Come Bak Fast Attack boats, nuke, of course, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in from '68-'74.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Turn off the lights, I still glow in the dark.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Fred,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> It sounds like you made something very positive out of a terrible 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> situation. The reception you returned to was a crime. As far as anyone 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> who might still shun you if they discovered you were a Vietnam vet, THEY 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> are the ones who should be ashamed (and given a good hard kick in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> butt to boot), not you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Thanks for your service,
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > John, as a brother Vietnam vet (Americal Division, Chu Lai, LZ Bayonet, 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > 1970), I also remember and give thanks and memory to our fellow vets 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > who didn't come home and to those of us who made it home but were 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > shunned by most everyone just for being there. Without going into a 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > detailed litany, the US participation in RVN was likely the darkest 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > days of US history. Those of us who survived to make it back home seem 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > to still be pariahs in our society although there are many (not all) 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > non-vets of our age group who have come around in recent years to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > thinking that maybe we had no choice but to go over there, that we 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > didn't start the war, and maybe, just maybe we were not voluntary 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > participants in a war which started long before we were born and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > continued after we left although many of us still suffer the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > consequences many years later (I have three Agent Orange illnesses 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > including two cancers and diabetes).
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Unfortunately, many folk consider Memorial Day as just another 3-day 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > weekend holiday without understanding nor recognizing the reasons the 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > weekend was created, Many go boating, fishing, travel to distant 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > relatives, or otherwise ignore or are ignorant of what we went through. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > This entire weekend, I received thanks from only other Vietnam vets. 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Not a single thanks from non-vets including my own family.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > At least one lesson learned: The returning Iraq and Afghanistan vets 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > are not receiving the same welcome home treatment, thanks to the shame 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > delivered upon us Vietnam veterans.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > I know this is well off topic, but my intense model railroad interest 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > is a result of my Vietnam experience, my decision to be left alone 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > after my negative reception back home, and as a consequence my desire 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > to seek activities which did not involve people, i.e., model 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > railroading, which would not further burden me with guilt and scorn.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Nevertheless, I have a model RR layout in the middle of the Arizona 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > desert which has drawn attention and praise from non-vets who are my 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > age (mid-60s) and older but who do not know I'm a disabled Vietvet and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > who if they learned, would likely keep their distance. I'm not proud to 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > be a Vietvet, but it was the only war we had going on at the time and 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > we did our duty the best way we could.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                    
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.42/2137 - Release Date: 05/27/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                    
07:50:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10778
						From: Raymond Lorts Sr
						Date: 5/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Fw: The Old Man   ONE TO BE PROUD OF
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                    Attachments :


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Wed, 5/27/09, Harold Stewart <simplygramps@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Harold Stewart <simplygramps@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: The Old Man ONE TO BE PROUD OF
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 5:31 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The Old Man... 

                                                                                                                                                                                      As I came out of the supermarket that sunny day, pushing my cart  of groceries  towards my car, I saw an old man with the hood of his car  up and a lady sitting inside the car, with the door open. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      The old man was looking at the engine.  I put my groceries away in my car and continued to watch the old gentleman from about twenty five feet away. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I saw a young man in his early  twenties with a grocery bag in his arm, walking towards the  old man. The old gentleman saw him coming too, and took a few steps towards him.  I saw the old gentleman point to his open hood and say something. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      The  young man put his grocery bag into what looked like a brand  new Cadillac Escalade and then turn back to the old man and  I heard him yell at the old gentleman saying, 'You shouldn't even be allowed to drive a car at your age.'  And then with a wave of his hand, he got  in his car and peeled  rubber out of the parking lot. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I saw the old gentleman pull out his handkerchief and mop his brow as he went back to his car and again looked at the engine.  He then went to his wife and spoke with  her and appeared  to tell her it would  be okay.  I had seen enough  and I approached the old man. He saw me coming and stood straight and as I got near him I said, 'Looks like  you're having a problem.' 

                                                                                                                                                                                      He smiled sheepishly and quietly nodded his head. I looked under the hood myself and knew that whatever the problem was, it was beyond me.  Looking around I saw a gas station up the road and told the old man that  I would be right back. I drove to the station and went inside and saw three attendants working on cars.  I approached one of  them and related the problem the old man had with his car and offered to pay them if they could follow me back  down and help him. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      The old man had pushed the heavy car under the shade of a tree and appeared to be comforting his wife. When he saw us, he straightened up and thanked me for my help. As the mechanics diagnosed the problem (overheated engine) I spoke with the old gentleman. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      When I shook hands with him earlier, he had noticed my Marine Corps ring and had commented about it, telling me that he had been a Marine too. I nodded and asked the usual question, 'What outfit did you serve with?' 

                                                                                                                                                                                      He had mentioned that he served with the first  Marine Division at Tarawa, Saipan, Iwo  Jima and Guadalcanal .  He had hit all the big ones and retired from the Corps after the war was over. As we talked we heard the car engine come on and saw the mechanics lower the hood..  They came over to us as the old man reached for his wallet, but was stopped by me and I told him I would just put the  bill on my AAA card. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      He still reached for the wallet and handed me a card that I assumed had his name and address on it and I stuck it in my pocket.. We all shook hands all around again and I said my goodbye's to his wife.  I then told the two mechanics that I would follow them back up to the station.  Once at the station I told them that they had interrupted their own jobs to come along with me and help the old man.  I said I wanted  to pay for the help, but they refused to charge me. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      One of them pulled out a card from his pocket looking exactly like the card the old man had given to me. Both of the men told me then, that they were Marine Corps Reserves. Once again we shook hands all around and as I was leaving, one of them told me I should look at the card the old man had given to me. I said I would and drove off. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      For some reason I had gone about two blocks when I pulled over and took the card out of my pocket and looked at it for a long, long time. The name of the old gentleman was on the card in golden leaf and under his name....... 'Congressional  Medal of Honor Society.' 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I  sat there motionless looking at the card and reading it over and over. I looked up from the card and smiled to no one but myself and marveled that on this day, four Marines had all come together, because one of  us needed help.  He was an old man all right, but it felt good to have stood next to greatness and courage and an honor to have been in his presence. Remember, OLD men like him gave you FREEDOM for  America . Thanks to those who served...& those who supported them. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      America  is not at war. The  U.S.  Military is at war.   America  is at the Mall. If  you don't stand behind our troops, PLEASE feel free to stand in front  of them! 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Remember, Freedom isn't "Free" -- thousands have paid the price so you can enjoy what you have today. 


                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      LET'S DO THIS -- JUST 19 WORDS 

                                                                                                                                                                                                        GOD OUR FATHER, WALK THROUGH MY HOUSE AND TAKE AWAY ALL MY WORRIES AND ILLNESSES; AND PLEASE WATCH OVER AND HEAL MY FAMILY 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.39/2134 - Release Date: 05/25/09 18:14:00

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10779
						From: oljoeoh
						Date: 5/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Nelson....
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I also have one with the Ernst gearset.  Runs well, but
                                                                                                                                                                                      
as you have commented - a bit noisy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for the side-by-side pic.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Well that makes more sense. ;-)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I snapped this photo of a spare motor with a Hustler frame for a size comparison. It looks like you could just loop the bands over the motor shaft. It will sure be a lot quieter than this Ernst kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t131/NickelPlate759/Athearn/?action=view¤t=DSCF1630-1000x750.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "oljoeoh" <oljoe@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Nelson...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I should have been clearer.  I will probably try the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > motor in the Cary Boxcab for the Hustler.  That is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > much wider and longer than the Hustler body.  I have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > several of the Cary conversions with and without
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > the rubber band drives.  Also have an uninstalled
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > kit of parts for a gear drive.  Any running version
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > of the Cary boxcab pulls like sin.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Your added info on the bands is also useful.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10780
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 5/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fw: The Old Man   ONE TO BE PROUD OF
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
Everyone who ever served and their families and loved ones are
prayed for daily...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
They were and are our first line of defense against tyranny and
aggression.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Stay safe...  Be greater blessed...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
For God, Country and the Peace keepers of law enforcement and the
military...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton, Chaplain to Peace Keepers.  Lifetime train lover.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
=====================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Raymond Lorts Sr wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- On Wed, 5/27/09, Harold Stewart <simplygramps@ msn.com>
wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Harold Stewart <simplygramps@ msn.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: The Old Man ONE TO BE PROUD OF
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 5:31 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                    
                      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                              		
                      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      The
Old Man... 
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      As I came out of the
supermarket that sunny day, pushing my cart  of groceries  towards my
car, I saw an old man with the hood of his car  up and a lady sitting
inside the car, with the door open. 
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      The old man was looking
at the engine.  I put my groceries away in my car and continued to
watch the old gentleman from about twenty five feet away. 
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      I saw a young man in his
early  twenties with a grocery bag in his arm, walking towards the  old
man. The old gentleman saw him coming too, and took a few steps towards
him.  I saw the old gentleman point to his open hood and say something.
                        
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      The  young man put his
grocery bag into what looked like a brand  new Cadillac Escalade and
then turn back to the old man and  I heard him yell at the old
gentleman saying, 'You shouldn't even be allowed to drive a car at your
age.'  And then with a wave of his hand, he got  in his car and peeled 
rubber out of the parking lot. 
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      I saw the old gentleman
pull out his handkerchief and mop his brow as he went back to his car
and again looked at the engine.  He then went to his wife and spoke
with  her and appeared  to tell her it would  be okay.  I had seen
enough  and I approached the old man. He saw me coming and stood
straight and as I got near him I said, 'Looks like  you're having a
problem.' 
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      He smiled sheepishly and
quietly nodded his head. I looked under the hood myself and knew that
whatever the problem was, it was beyond me.  Looking around I saw a gas
station up the road and told the old man that  I would be right back. I
drove to the station and went inside and saw three attendants working
on cars.  I approached one of  them and related the problem the old man
had with his car and offered to pay them if they could follow me back 
down and help him. 
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      The old man had pushed
the heavy car under the shade of a tree and appeared to be comforting
his wife. When he saw us, he straightened up and thanked me for my
help. As the mechanics diagnosed the problem (overheated engine) I
spoke with the old gentleman. 
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      When I shook hands with
him earlier, he had noticed my Marine Corps ring and had commented
about it, telling me that he had been a Marine too. I nodded and asked
the usual question, 'What outfit did you serve with?' 
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      He had mentioned that he
served with the first  Marine Division at Tarawa, Saipan, Iwo  Jima and
Guadalcanal .  He had hit all the big ones and retired from the Corps
after the war was over. As we talked we heard the car engine come on
and saw the mechanics lower the hood..  They came over to us as the old
man reached for his wallet, but was stopped by me and I told him I
would just put the  bill on my AAA card. 
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      He still reached for the
wallet and handed me a card that I assumed had his name and address on
it and I stuck it in my pocket.. We all shook hands all around again
and I said my goodbye's to his wife.  I then told the two mechanics
that I would follow them back up to the station.  Once at the station I
told them that they had interrupted their own jobs to come along with
me and help the old man.  I said I wanted  to pay for the help, but
they refused to charge me. 
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      One of them pulled out a
card from his pocket looking exactly like the card the old man had
given to me. Both of the men told me then, that they were Marine Corps
Reserves. Once again we shook hands all around and as I was leaving,
one of them told me I should look at the card the old man had given to
me. I said I would and drove off. 
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      For some reason I had
gone about two blocks when I pulled over and took the card out of my
pocket and looked at it for a long, long time. The name of the old
gentleman was on the card in golden leaf and under his name.......
'Congressional  Medal of Honor Society.' 
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      I  sat there motionless
looking at the card and reading it over and over. I looked up from the
card and smiled to no one but myself and marveled that on this day,
four Marines had all come together, because one of  us needed help.  He
was an old man all right, but it felt good to have stood next to
greatness and courage and an honor to have been in his presence.
Remember, OLD men like him gave you FREEDOM for  America . Thanks to
those who served...& those who supported them. 
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      America  is not at war. The 
U.S.  Military is at war.   America  is at the Mall. If  you don't
stand behind our troops, PLEASE feel free to stand in front  of them! 
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Remember, Freedom
isn't "Free" -- thousands have paid the price so you can enjoy what you
have today. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      LET'S DO THIS -- JUST 19
WORDS 
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                                        GOD OUR
FATHER, WALK THROUGH MY HOUSE AND TAKE AWAY ALL MY WORRIES AND
ILLNESSES; AND PLEASE WATCH OVER AND HEAL MY FAMILY 
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                                        
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                        
                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                              		
                      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                          
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                        		
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                       
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.39/2134 - Release Date:
05/25/09 18:14:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                              		
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject:
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Old Man                                                                                                                                                                                      		
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Merlin <merlinsmail@...>                                                                                                                                                                                      		
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sat, 23 May 2009 20:08:11 -0700                                                                                                                                                                                      		
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Carl & Betty Bailey <BettyBend2@...>                                                                                                                                                                                      		
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Carl & Betty Bailey <BettyBend2@...>                                                                                                                                                                                      		
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
              
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                      		
              
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      The
Old Man... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      As I came out of the
supermarket that sunny day, pushing my cart  of groceries  towards my
car, I saw an old man with the hood of his car  up and a lady sitting
inside the car, with the door open. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      The old man was looking
at the engine.  I put my groceries away in my car and continued to
watch the old gentleman from about twenty five feet away. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      I saw a young man in his
early  twenties with a grocery bag in his arm, walking towards the  old
man. The old gentleman saw him coming too, and took a few steps towards
him.  I saw the old gentleman point to his open hood and say something.
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      The  young man put his
grocery bag into what looked like a brand  new Cadillac Escalade and
then turn back to the old man and  I heard him yell at the old
gentleman saying, 'You shouldn't even be allowed to drive a car at your
age.'  And then with a wave of his hand, he got  in his car and peeled 
rubber out of the parking lot. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      I saw the old gentleman
pull out his handkerchief and mop his brow as he went back to his car
and again looked at the engine.  He then went to his wife and spoke
with  her and appeared  to tell her it would  be okay.  I had seen
enough  and I approached the old man. He saw me coming and stood
straight and as I got near him I said, 'Looks like  you're having a
problem.' 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      He smiled sheepishly and
quietly nodded his head. I looked under the hood myself and knew that
whatever the problem was, it was beyond me.  Looking around I saw a gas
station up the road and told the old man that  I would be right back. I
drove to the station and went inside and saw three attendants working
on cars.  I approached one of  them and related the problem the old man
had with his car and offered to pay them if they could follow me back 
down and help him. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      The old man had pushed
the heavy car under the shade of a tree and appeared to be comforting
his wife. When he saw us, he straightened up and thanked me for my
help. As the mechanics diagnosed the problem (overheated engine) I
spoke with the old gentleman. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      When I shook hands with
him earlier, he had noticed my Marine Corps ring and had commented
about it, telling me that he had been a Marine too. I nodded and asked
the usual question, 'What outfit did you serve with?' 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      He had mentioned that he
served with the first  Marine Division at Tarawa, Saipan, Iwo  Jima and
Guadalcanal .  He had hit all the big ones and retired from the Corps
after the war was over. As we talked we heard the car engine come on
and saw the mechanics lower the hood..  They came over to us as the old
man reached for his wallet, but was stopped by me and I told him I
would just put the  bill on my AAA card. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      He still reached for the
wallet and handed me a card that I assumed had his name and address on
it and I stuck it in my pocket.. We all shook hands all around again
and I said my goodbye's to his wife.  I then told the two mechanics
that I would follow them back up to the station.  Once at the station I
told them that they had interrupted their own jobs to come along with
me and help the old man.  I said I wanted  to pay for the help, but
they refused to charge me. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      One of them pulled out a
card from his pocket looking exactly like the card the old man had
given to me. Both of the men told me then, that they were Marine Corps
Reserves. Once again we shook hands all around and as I was leaving,
one of them told me I should look at the card the old man had given to
me. I said I would and drove off. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      For some reason I had
gone about two blocks when I pulled over and took the card out of my
pocket and looked at it for a long, long time. The name of the old
gentleman was on the card in golden leaf and under his name.......
'Congressional  Medal of Honor Society.' 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      I  sat there motionless
looking at the card and reading it over and over. I looked up from the
card and smiled to no one but myself and marveled that on this day,
four Marines had all come together, because one of  us needed help.  He
was an old man all right, but it felt good to have stood next to
greatness and courage and an honor to have been in his presence.
Remember, OLD men like him gave you FREEDOM for  America . Thanks to
those who served...& those who supported them.
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      America  is not at war. The 
U.S.  Military is at war.   America  is at the Mall. If  you don't
stand behind our troops, PLEASE feel free to stand in front  of them! 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      Remember, Freedom
isn't "Free" -- thousands have paid the price so you can enjoy what you
have today. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      LET'S DO THIS -- JUST 19
WORDS 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                        GOD OUR
FATHER, WALK THROUGH MY HOUSE AND TAKE AWAY ALL MY WORRIES AND
ILLNESSES; AND PLEASE WATCH OVER AND HEAL MY FAMILY 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                      		
              
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                		
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                            
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10781
						From: Fred Stevens K2FRD
						Date: 5/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Holiday and Follow-up
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Nelson and the others who responded to my message (quoted below with other extracts from the Vintage HO Daily Digest; I just switched back to individual emails) --
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have no words to express my gratitude for the very positive comments to my message from both other veterans and contemporary non-vets who comprise the members of this Group. I do not believe, however that these views represent the majority of the American population who have largely ignored Vietvets' existence and/or don't even recognize that the US was involved in a doomed war in Vietnam. With only a limited sample size (my nephews and nieces, many Boy Scouts whom I mentor), I have found that US involvement in Vietnam isn't even being taught in schools. How may the lessons of Vietnam be taught to future generations when the lessons are not even being taught?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Off my ivory tower and back to vintage railroads (constructing old wood kits: Ambroid, Quality Craft Models , LaBelle, Ulrich, et al).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Always,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 11:01 PM +0000 28/5/09, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>1a. Re: Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Posted by: "Nelson" greenbrier614@... greenbrier614
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Date: Wed May 27, 2009 4:12 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Fred,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>It sounds like you made something very positive out of a terrible situation. The reception you returned to was a crime. As far as anyone who might still shun you if they discovered you were a Vietnam vet, THEY are the ones who should be ashamed (and given a good hard kick in the butt to boot), not you.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Thanks for your service,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> John, as a brother Vietnam vet (Americal Division, Chu Lai, LZ Bayonet, 1970), I also remember and give thanks and memory to our fellow vets who didn't come home and to those of us who made it home but were shunned by most everyone just for being there. Without going into a detailed litany, the US participation in RVN was likely the darkest days of US history. Those of us who survived to make it back home seem to still be pariahs in our society although there are many (not all) non-vets of our age group who have come around in recent years to thinking that maybe we had no choice but to go over there, that we didn't start the war, and maybe, just maybe we were not voluntary participants in a war which started long before we were born and continued after we left although many of us still suffer the consequences many years later (I have three Agent Orange illnesses including two cancers and diabetes).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Unfortunately, many folk consider Memorial Day as just another 3-day weekend holiday without understanding nor recognizing the reasons the weekend was created, Many go boating, fishing, travel to distant relatives, or otherwise ignore or are ignorant of what we went through. This entire weekend, I received thanks from only other Vietnam vets. Not a single thanks from non-vets including my own family.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> At least one lesson learned: The returning Iraq and Afghanistan vets are not receiving the same welcome home treatment, thanks to the shame delivered upon us Vietnam veterans.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I know this is well off topic, but my intense model railroad interest is a result of my Vietnam experience, my decision to be left alone after my negative reception back home, and as a consequence my desire to seek activities which did not involve people, i.e., model railroading, which would not further burden me with guilt and scorn.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Nevertheless, I have a model RR layout in the middle of the Arizona desert which has drawn attention and praise from non-vets who are my age (mid-60s) and older but who do not know I'm a disabled Vietvet and who if they learned, would likely keep their distance. I'm not proud to be a Vietvet, but it was the only war we had going on at the time and we did our duty the best way we could.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Messages in this topic (13)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>1b. Re: Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Posted by: "curmudgeon" idioticyahoo@... trainsnwrcs
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Date: Wed May 27, 2009 4:42 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Just like the rest of us (and it wasn't just US Army and Marines getting off the plane at SFO), next one any of us sees giving any serviceman (or Veteran) a hard time, you'll see it on the six on the six o'clock news.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Being Submarines it was A) difficult to get in-county, and B) getting the Navy to officially 'fess up to the presence of one of out boats inside territorial waters, all just about any of us can say is "Vietnam Era".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I was on Big, Black and Never Come Bak Fast Attack boats, nuke, of course, in from '68-'74.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Turn off the lights, I still glow in the dark.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>From: Harold Stewart <simplygramps@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Subject: The Old Man ONE TO BE PROUD OF
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>To:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 5:31 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>The Old Man...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>As I came out of the supermarket that sunny day, pushing my cart  of groceries  towards my car, I saw an old man with the hood of his car  up and a lady sitting inside the car, with the door open.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>The old man was looking at the engine.  I put my groceries away in my car and continued to watch the old gentleman from about twenty five feet away.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I saw a young man in his early  twenties with a grocery bag in his arm, walking towards the  old man. The old gentleman saw him coming too, and took a few steps towards him.  I saw the old gentleman point to his open hood and say something.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>The  young man put his grocery bag into what looked like a brand  new Cadillac Escalade and then turn back to the old man and  I heard him yell at the old gentleman saying, 'You shouldn't even be allowed to drive a car at your age.'  And then with a wave of his hand, he got  in his car and peeled  rubber out of the parking lot.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I saw the old gentleman pull out his handkerchief and mop his brow as he went back to his car and again looked at the engine.  He then went to his wife and spoke with  her and appeared  to tell her it would  be okay.  I had seen enough  and I approached the old man. He saw me coming and stood straight and as I got near him I said, 'Looks like  you're having a problem.'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>He smiled sheepishly and quietly nodded his head. I looked under the hood myself and knew that whatever the problem was, it was beyond me.  Looking around I saw a gas station up the road and told the old man that  I would be right back. I drove to the station and went inside and saw three attendants working on cars.  I approached one of  them and related the problem the old man had with his car and offered to pay them if they could follow me back  down and help him.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>The old man had pushed the heavy car under the shade of a tree and appeared to be comforting his wife. When he saw us, he straightened up and thanked me for my help. As the mechanics diagnosed the problem (overheated engine) I spoke with the old gentleman.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>When I shook hands with him earlier, he had noticed my Marine Corps ring and had commented about it, telling me that he had been a Marine too. I nodded and asked the usual question, 'What outfit did you serve with?'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>He had mentioned that he served with the first  Marine Division at Tarawa, Saipan, Iwo  Jima and Guadalcanal .  He had hit all the big ones and retired from the Corps after the war was over. As we talked we heard the car engine come on and saw the mechanics lower the hood..  They came over to us as the old man reached for his wallet, but was stopped by me and I told him I would just put the  bill on my AAA card.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>He still reached for the wallet and handed me a card that I assumed had his name and address on it and I stuck it in my pocket.. We all shook hands all around again and I said my goodbye's to his wife.  I then told the two mechanics that I would follow them back up to the station.  Once at the station I told them that they had interrupted their own jobs to come along with me and help the old man.  I said I wanted  to pay for the help, but they refused to charge me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>One of them pulled out a card from his pocket looking exactly like the card the old man had given to me. Both of the men told me then, that they were Marine Corps Reserves. Once again we shook hands all around and as I was leaving, one of them told me I should look at the card the old man had given to me. I said I would and drove off.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>For some reason I had gone about two blocks when I pulled over and took the card out of my pocket and looked at it for a long, long time. The name of the old gentleman was on the card in golden leaf and under his name....... 'Congressional  Medal of Honor Society.'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I  sat there motionless looking at the card and reading it over and over. I looked up from the card and smiled to no one but myself and marveled that on this day, four Marines had all come together, because one of  us needed help.  He was an old man all right, but it felt good to have stood next to greatness and courage and an honor to have been in his presence. Remember, OLD men like him gave you FREEDOM for  America . Thanks to those who served...& those who supported them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>America  is not at war. The  U.S.  Military is at war.   America  is at the Mall. If  you don't stand behind our troops, PLEASE feel free to stand in front  of them!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Remember, Freedom isn't "Free" -- thousands have paid the price so you can enjoy what you have today.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>LET'S DO THIS -- JUST 19 WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                  GOD OUR FATHER, WALK THROUGH MY HOUSE AND TAKE AWAY ALL MY WORRIES AND ILLNESSES; AND PLEASE WATCH OVER AND HEAL MY FAMILY
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>4b. Re: Fw: The Old Man   ONE TO BE PROUD OF
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Posted by: "Donald R. Staton" chpln1@... trainsstaton
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Date: Thu May 28, 2009 8:42 am ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>/Everyone who ever served and their families and loved ones are prayed
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>for daily...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>They were and are our first line of defense against tyranny and aggression.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Stay safe...  Be greater blessed...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>For God, Country and the Peace keepers of law enforcement and the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>military...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Don Staton, Chaplain to Peace Keepers.  Lifetime train lover.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>===================================================== 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10782
						From: Henry Hultgren
						Date: 5/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Holiday and Follow-up
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello Fred , Hank H. [US Navy 1962-66 , USS Constelletion Forward catapult crew] , I too am digusted with "revisionist" history being taught today . The end product isn't too swift either . The same folks who gave us a bad time are running the assylum ! Thanks Fred , you're not alone . --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Nelson and the others who responded to my message (quoted below with other extracts from the Vintage HO Daily Digest; I just switched back to individual emails) --
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have no words to express my gratitude for the very positive comments to my message from both other veterans and contemporary non-vets who comprise the members of this Group. I do not believe, however that these views represent the majority of the American population who have largely ignored Vietvets' existence and/or don't even recognize that the US was involved in a doomed war in Vietnam. With only a limited sample size (my nephews and nieces, many Boy Scouts whom I mentor), I have found that US involvement in Vietnam isn't even being taught in schools. How may the lessons of Vietnam be taught to future generations when the lessons are not even being taught?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Off my ivory tower and back to vintage railroads (constructing old wood kits: Ambroid, Quality Craft Models , LaBelle, Ulrich, et al).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Always,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> At 11:01 PM +0000 28/5/09, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >1a. Re: Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >    Posted by: "Nelson" greenbrier614@... greenbrier614
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >    Date: Wed May 27, 2009 4:12 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Fred,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >It sounds like you made something very positive out of a terrible situation. The reception you returned to was a crime. As far as anyone who might still shun you if they discovered you were a Vietnam vet, THEY are the ones who should be ashamed (and given a good hard kick in the butt to boot), not you.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Thanks for your service,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> John, as a brother Vietnam vet (Americal Division, Chu Lai, LZ Bayonet, 1970), I also remember and give thanks and memory to our fellow vets who didn't come home and to those of us who made it home but were shunned by most everyone just for being there. Without going into a detailed litany, the US participation in RVN was likely the darkest days of US history. Those of us who survived to make it back home seem to still be pariahs in our society although there are many (not all) non-vets of our age group who have come around in recent years to thinking that maybe we had no choice but to go over there, that we didn't start the war, and maybe, just maybe we were not voluntary participants in a war which started long before we were born and continued after we left although many of us still suffer the consequences many years later (I have three Agent Orange illnesses including two cancers and diabetes).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Unfortunately, many folk consider Memorial Day as just another 3-day weekend holiday without understanding nor recognizing the reasons the weekend was created, Many go boating, fishing, travel to distant relatives, or otherwise ignore or are ignorant of what we went through. This entire weekend, I received thanks from only other Vietnam vets. Not a single thanks from non-vets including my own family.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> At least one lesson learned: The returning Iraq and Afghanistan vets are not receiving the same welcome home treatment, thanks to the shame delivered upon us Vietnam veterans.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> I know this is well off topic, but my intense model railroad interest is a result of my Vietnam experience, my decision to be left alone after my negative reception back home, and as a consequence my desire to seek activities which did not involve people, i.e., model railroading, which would not further burden me with guilt and scorn.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Nevertheless, I have a model RR layout in the middle of the Arizona desert which has drawn attention and praise from non-vets who are my age (mid-60s) and older but who do not know I'm a disabled Vietvet and who if they learned, would likely keep their distance. I'm not proud to be a Vietvet, but it was the only war we had going on at the time and we did our duty the best way we could.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Messages in this topic (13)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >1b. Re: Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >    Posted by: "curmudgeon" idioticyahoo@... trainsnwrcs
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >    Date: Wed May 27, 2009 4:42 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Just like the rest of us (and it wasn't just US Army and Marines getting off the plane at SFO), next one any of us sees giving any serviceman (or Veteran) a hard time, you'll see it on the six on the six o'clock news.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Being Submarines it was A) difficult to get in-county, and B) getting the Navy to officially 'fess up to the presence of one of out boats inside territorial waters, all just about any of us can say is "Vietnam Era".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >I was on Big, Black and Never Come Bak Fast Attack boats, nuke, of course, in from '68-'74.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Turn off the lights, I still glow in the dark.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >From: Harold Stewart <simplygramps@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Subject: The Old Man ONE TO BE PROUD OF
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >To:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 5:31 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >The Old Man...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >As I came out of the supermarket that sunny day, pushing my cart  of groceries  towards my car, I saw an old man with the hood of his car  up and a lady sitting inside the car, with the door open.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >The old man was looking at the engine.  I put my groceries away in my car and continued to watch the old gentleman from about twenty five feet away.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >I saw a young man in his early  twenties with a grocery bag in his arm, walking towards the  old man. The old gentleman saw him coming too, and took a few steps towards him.  I saw the old gentleman point to his open hood and say something.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >The  young man put his grocery bag into what looked like a brand  new Cadillac Escalade and then turn back to the old man and  I heard him yell at the old gentleman saying, 'You shouldn't even be allowed to drive a car at your age.'  And then with a wave of his hand, he got  in his car and peeled  rubber out of the parking lot.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >I saw the old gentleman pull out his handkerchief and mop his brow as he went back to his car and again looked at the engine.  He then went to his wife and spoke with  her and appeared  to tell her it would  be okay.  I had seen enough  and I approached the old man. He saw me coming and stood straight and as I got near him I said, 'Looks like  you're having a problem.'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >He smiled sheepishly and quietly nodded his head. I looked under the hood myself and knew that whatever the problem was, it was beyond me.  Looking around I saw a gas station up the road and told the old man that  I would be right back. I drove to the station and went inside and saw three attendants working on cars.  I approached one of  them and related the problem the old man had with his car and offered to pay them if they could follow me back  down and help him.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >The old man had pushed the heavy car under the shade of a tree and appeared to be comforting his wife. When he saw us, he straightened up and thanked me for my help. As the mechanics diagnosed the problem (overheated engine) I spoke with the old gentleman.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >When I shook hands with him earlier, he had noticed my Marine Corps ring and had commented about it, telling me that he had been a Marine too. I nodded and asked the usual question, 'What outfit did you serve with?'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >He had mentioned that he served with the first  Marine Division at Tarawa, Saipan, Iwo  Jima and Guadalcanal .  He had hit all the big ones and retired from the Corps after the war was over. As we talked we heard the car engine come on and saw the mechanics lower the hood..  They came over to us as the old man reached for his wallet, but was stopped by me and I told him I would just put the  bill on my AAA card.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >He still reached for the wallet and handed me a card that I assumed had his name and address on it and I stuck it in my pocket.. We all shook hands all around again and I said my goodbye's to his wife.  I then told the two mechanics that I would follow them back up to the station.  Once at the station I told them that they had interrupted their own jobs to come along with me and help the old man.  I said I wanted  to pay for the help, but they refused to charge me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >One of them pulled out a card from his pocket looking exactly like the card the old man had given to me. Both of the men told me then, that they were Marine Corps Reserves. Once again we shook hands all around and as I was leaving, one of them told me I should look at the card the old man had given to me. I said I would and drove off.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >For some reason I had gone about two blocks when I pulled over and took the card out of my pocket and looked at it for a long, long time. The name of the old gentleman was on the card in golden leaf and under his name....... 'Congressional  Medal of Honor Society.'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >I  sat there motionless looking at the card and reading it over and over. I looked up from the card and smiled to no one but myself and marveled that on this day, four Marines had all come together, because one of  us needed help.  He was an old man all right, but it felt good to have stood next to greatness and courage and an honor to have been in his presence. Remember, OLD men like him gave you FREEDOM for  America . Thanks to those who served...& those who supported them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >America  is not at war. The  U.S.  Military is at war.   America  is at the Mall. If  you don't stand behind our troops, PLEASE feel free to stand in front  of them!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Remember, Freedom isn't "Free" -- thousands have paid the price so you can enjoy what you have today.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >LET'S DO THIS -- JUST 19 WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >                  GOD OUR FATHER, WALK THROUGH MY HOUSE AND TAKE AWAY ALL MY WORRIES AND ILLNESSES; AND PLEASE WATCH OVER AND HEAL MY FAMILY
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >4b. Re: Fw: The Old Man   ONE TO BE PROUD OF
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >    Posted by: "Donald R. Staton" chpln1@... trainsstaton
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >    Date: Thu May 28, 2009 8:42 am ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >/Everyone who ever served and their families and loved ones are prayed
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >for daily...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >They were and are our first line of defense against tyranny and aggression.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Stay safe...  Be greater blessed...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >For God, Country and the Peace keepers of law enforcement and the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >military...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Don Staton, Chaplain to Peace Keepers.  Lifetime train lover.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >=====================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10783
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 5/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: My first Mantua Mighty Mite --  Opinions?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
So I just received my very
first Mantua Mighty Mite 0-4-0 and tender.  (Wrong tender I think,
but cute anyway)

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I've never seen one until today.  Downright adorable.  Now I
want another one.

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I checked out Mantua MM ads, etc., via Yardbirds site.

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Any comments about history, care and feeding of these Mites?

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10784
						From: John Barlow
						Date: 5/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Holiday and Follow-up...in a Modeler's Sense
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Dear Fred and Others,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In the nearly forty years since I served in Vietnam I came to learn that I was among a sizeable number of military Vets who served there and were told soon after our return to America that we were written off by this society as "expendable" and not to get in the way of younger people who did not serve and were prime candidates for so many choice jobs
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      that were coming into being in the job market circa the mid-1970's. My then own father-in-law, a major university's business professor, called me and my fellows of both genders "the lost generation." We should accept our lot in life for having been forced to participate in a
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      losing war that drained the economy of the 1960's with no return on the funds expended and be glad to get the scraps we would get offered in the decades to come. That was a head trip. He died in 1981. I'm 62 (soon to be 63), and I have never forgotten his not so encouraging words. I worked at several colleges myself and with fellow Vets who were VA 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      employees who had older VA employees/Vets ask them "how dare we lose their (the older Vets') war in Vietnam." America has never gotten over that war but has never come to grips with what it did not do to support its Servicepeople there as they were forced to put their lives on the line. In the "Forgetable Seventies" (and beyond) the non-Vet population
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      charged on to other social issues as it swept that war under the national carpet, so Fred's finding that his younger relatives have not gotten the picture, nowhere near the full one, is not surprising to me. The war that consumed the youth of so many of us has become the war to be forgotten by all American generations to come. Sadly, as an Air Force retiree now who served on through two subsequent decades, I saw evidence that commissioned
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Vietnam Vets were systematically tossed out of the services and denied promotions and careers by superiors who never earned the Vietnam-associated decorations...to remove the collective memory of how the top brass of then succumbed to political pressures and lost viable input status to prosecuting that war. We can all remember the heroic ordeal of Senator McCain in his imprisonment in the infamous "Hanoi Hilton", but how many of us know his father, Admiral McCain, who was CinCPACOM, the senior officer in the Pacific Theater responsible for commanding that war effort and how Washington by-passed him on major strategies and gave orders directly to his subordinates in Vietnam? Teach that to the kids today. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      This is not really a subject for this website, but how much larger would it be in members or the numbers for any other model railroading website today if a number of our fellows had not just been lost to not only the war but to the disgraceful peace that followed in which 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      men could never recoup their lives or their pre-Vietnam interests because they were robbed of any opportunity to fully and simply "come home"?  Look at those tombstones and see not only a cherished soul lost to this nation but a fellow whose presence was never again to grace the local hobby shop on an autumn's crisp Saturday morning, looking at whatever they sought to hopefully create peacefully in a basement or attic somewhere. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      John W. Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Vietnam Vet (Sep 69 - Sep 70)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Thu, 5/28/09, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Holiday and Follow-up
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 6:33 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Nelson and the others who responded to my message (quoted below with other extracts from the Vintage HO Daily Digest; I just switched back to individual emails) --

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have no words to express my gratitude for the very positive comments to my message from both other veterans and contemporary non-vets who comprise the members of this Group. I do not believe, however that these views represent the majority of the American population who have largely ignored Vietvets' existence and/or don't even recognize that the US was involved in a doomed war in Vietnam. With only a limited sample size (my nephews and nieces, many Boy Scouts whom I mentor), I have found that US involvement in Vietnam isn't even being taught in schools. How may the lessons of Vietnam be taught to future generations when the lessons are not even being taught?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Off my ivory tower and back to vintage railroads (constructing old wood kits: Ambroid, Quality Craft Models ,
 LaBelle, Ulrich, et al).

                                                                                                                                                                                      Always,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Fred Stevens

                                                                                                                                                                                      At 11:01 PM +0000 28/5/09, vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      >1a. Re: Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Posted by: "Nelson" greenbrier614@ yahoo.com greenbrier614
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Date: Wed May 27, 2009 4:12 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Fred,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >It sounds like you made something very positive out of a terrible situation. The reception you returned to was a crime. As far as anyone who might still shun you if they discovered you were a Vietnam vet, THEY are the ones who should be ashamed (and given a good hard kick in
 the butt to boot), not you.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Thanks for your service,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> John, as a brother Vietnam vet (Americal Division, Chu Lai, LZ Bayonet, 1970), I also remember and give thanks and memory to our fellow vets who didn't come home and to those of us who made it home but were shunned by most everyone just for being there. Without going into a detailed litany, the US participation in RVN was likely the darkest days of US history. Those of us who survived to make it back home seem to still be pariahs in our society although there are many (not all) non-vets of our age group who have come around in recent years to thinking that maybe we had no choice but to go over
 there, that we didn't start the war, and maybe, just maybe we were not voluntary participants in a war which started long before we were born and continued after we left although many of us still suffer the consequences many years later (I have three Agent Orange illnesses including two cancers and diabetes).
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Unfortunately, many folk consider Memorial Day as just another 3-day weekend holiday without understanding nor recognizing the reasons the weekend was created, Many go boating, fishing, travel to distant relatives, or otherwise ignore or are ignorant of what we went through. This entire weekend, I received thanks from only other Vietnam vets. Not a single thanks from non-vets including my own family.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> At least one lesson learned: The returning Iraq and Afghanistan vets are not receiving the same welcome home treatment, thanks to the shame delivered upon us Vietnam veterans.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> I
 know this is well off topic, but my intense model railroad interest is a result of my Vietnam experience, my decision to be left alone after my negative reception back home, and as a consequence my desire to seek activities which did not involve people, i.e., model railroading, which would not further burden me with guilt and scorn.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Nevertheless, I have a model RR layout in the middle of the Arizona desert which has drawn attention and praise from non-vets who are my age (mid-60s) and older but who do not know I'm a disabled Vietvet and who if they learned, would likely keep their distance. I'm not proud to be a Vietvet, but it was the only war we had going on at the time and we did our duty the best way we could.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Messages in this topic (13)
                                                                                                                                                                                      >___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      >1b. Re:
 Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Posted by: "curmudgeon" idioticyahoo@ mindspring. com trainsnwrcs
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Date: Wed May 27, 2009 4:42 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Just like the rest of us (and it wasn't just US Army and Marines getting off the plane at SFO), next one any of us sees giving any serviceman (or Veteran) a hard time, you'll see it on the six on the six o'clock news.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Being Submarines it was A) difficult to get in-county, and B) getting the Navy to officially 'fess up to the presence of one of out boats inside territorial waters, all just about any of us can say is "Vietnam Era".
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >I was on Big, Black and Never Come Bak Fast Attack boats, nuke, of course, in from '68-'74.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Turn off the lights, I still glow in the dark.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >From: Harold
 Stewart <simplygramps@ msn.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Subject: The Old Man ONE TO BE PROUD OF
                                                                                                                                                                                      >To:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 5:31 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >The Old Man...
                                                                                                                                                                                      >As I came out of the supermarket that sunny day, pushing my cart of groceries towards my car, I saw an old man with the hood of his car up and a lady sitting inside the car, with the door open.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >The old man was looking at the engine. I put my groceries away in my car and continued to watch the old gentleman from about twenty five feet away.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >I saw a young man in his early twenties with a grocery bag in his arm, walking towards the old man. The old gentleman saw him coming too, and took a few steps towards him. I saw the old gentleman point to his open hood and say something.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >The young man put his grocery
 bag into what looked like a brand new Cadillac Escalade and then turn back to the old man and I heard him yell at the old gentleman saying, 'You shouldn't even be allowed to drive a car at your age.' And then with a wave of his hand, he got in his car and peeled rubber out of the parking lot.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >I saw the old gentleman pull out his handkerchief and mop his brow as he went back to his car and again looked at the engine. He then went to his wife and spoke with her and appeared to tell her it would be okay. I had seen enough and I approached the old man. He saw me coming and stood straight and as I got near him I said, 'Looks like you're having a problem.'
                                                                                                                                                                                      >He smiled sheepishly and quietly nodded his head. I looked under the hood myself and knew that whatever the problem was, it was beyond me. Looking around I saw a gas station up the road and told the old man that I would be right back. I drove to the station and went inside and saw three
 attendants working on cars. I approached one of them and related the problem the old man had with his car and offered to pay them if they could follow me back down and help him.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >The old man had pushed the heavy car under the shade of a tree and appeared to be comforting his wife. When he saw us, he straightened up and thanked me for my help. As the mechanics diagnosed the problem (overheated engine) I spoke with the old gentleman.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >When I shook hands with him earlier, he had noticed my Marine Corps ring and had commented about it, telling me that he had been a Marine too. I nodded and asked the usual question, 'What outfit did you serve with?'
                                                                                                                                                                                      >He had mentioned that he served with the first Marine Division at Tarawa, Saipan, Iwo Jima and Guadalcanal . He had hit all the big ones and retired from the Corps after the war was over. As we talked we heard the car engine come on and saw the mechanics lower the hood.. They came over to us as
 the old man reached for his wallet, but was stopped by me and I told him I would just put the bill on my AAA card.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >He still reached for the wallet and handed me a card that I assumed had his name and address on it and I stuck it in my pocket.. We all shook hands all around again and I said my goodbye's to his wife. I then told the two mechanics that I would follow them back up to the station. Once at the station I told them that they had interrupted their own jobs to come along with me and help the old man. I said I wanted to pay for the help, but they refused to charge me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >One of them pulled out a card from his pocket looking exactly like the card the old man had given to me. Both of the men told me then, that they were Marine Corps Reserves. Once again we shook hands all around and as I was leaving, one of them told me I should look at the card the old man had given to me. I said I would and drove off.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >For some reason I had gone
 about two blocks when I pulled over and took the card out of my pocket and looked at it for a long, long time. The name of the old gentleman was on the card in golden leaf and under his name....... 'Congressional Medal of Honor Society.'
                                                                                                                                                                                      >I sat there motionless looking at the card and reading it over and over. I looked up from the card and smiled to no one but myself and marveled that on this day, four Marines had all come together, because one of us needed help. He was an old man all right, but it felt good to have stood next to greatness and courage and an honor to have been in his presence. Remember, OLD men like him gave you FREEDOM for America . Thanks to those who served...& those who supported them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >America is not at war. The U.S. Military is at war. America is at the Mall. If you don't stand behind our troops, PLEASE feel free to stand in front of them!
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Remember, Freedom isn't "Free" -- thousands have paid the price so
 you can enjoy what you have today.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >LET'S DO THIS -- JUST 19 WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                      > GOD OUR FATHER, WALK THROUGH MY HOUSE AND TAKE AWAY ALL MY WORRIES AND ILLNESSES; AND PLEASE WATCH OVER AND HEAL MY FAMILY
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      >4b. Re: Fw: The Old Man ONE TO BE PROUD OF
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Posted by: "Donald R. Staton" chpln1@verizon. net trainsstaton
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Date: Thu May 28, 2009 8:42 am ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >/Everyone who ever served and their families and loved ones are prayed
                                                                                                                                                                                      >for daily...
                                                                                                                                                                                      >They were and are our first line of defense against tyranny and aggression.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Stay safe... Be greater blessed...
                                                                                                                                                                                      >For God, Country and the Peace keepers of law enforcement and the
                                                                                                                                                                                      >military...
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Don Staton, Chaplain to
 Peace Keepers. Lifetime train lover.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >=========== ========= ========= ========= ========= ======

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10785
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Holiday and Follow-up
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Fred, and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Fred, I was going to email this to you privately as this important thread wonund down, but then reda the additional comments today, and thought that since tomorrow, May 30th, was always the traditional Decoration Day - Memorial Day, and hopefully with Don's and everyones good graces, I'd extend this thread for one more time.  I had mentioned previously about playing a small part in setting up those flags along our main road.  I finally found some paragraphs I wrote in 2006 about that experience and how it touched the lives of a few and a reason why I believed it important.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
MEMORIAL DAY?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Just this past weekend, residents of the town witnessed the sight of hundreds and hundreds of small flags planted along the length of the Township in honor of those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice in defending our nation and to help celebrate those freedoms with family and friends.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The tribute, now a tradition for over a decade, is due to the efforts and generosity of a local business owner and her associates. Cynics might scoff and say it is just good advertising, but I doubt that few noticed the tiny one square inch labels. Pat simply thought it would be a neat thing to do on a special day in the town that has given her and her family a home, good friends and a successful business with employees sharing her philosophy of giving back to the community which they all hold close.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The flag tribute quickly expanded in subsequent years to encompass the whole two mile legnth of the main road and another road leading from the State highway. This year I asked her if she might consider adding my street to the list, as it also leads into the town center and volunteered my winnings from a friendly game at last summer's neighborhood block party. She agreed as long as I became part of the crew of volunteers placing the flags. Little did I know that my simple effort would have much added meaning. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As I began placing flags, I spotted Don on his porch, a former Board of Ed bember and Rotarian. What's Memorial Day? Don knows; he is a Veteran of World War II and fought for us by defusing land mines up through Italy. Two blocks later, I saw long time family friend Tony weeding his yard and said "Hi." Tony saw action in the Pacific Theater of W.W.II He too, knows the meaning of Memorial Day. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Next street was my own. Just as we began planting the flags, I spotted lifelong neighbor, Doris. Again, she has first hand knowledge of the meaning of Memorial Day. She had often displayed the largest flag on the block at this time of year. I had asked my parents why and learned that her first husband, and the father of her oldest son, was lost on one of the last days, if not the last day of World War II. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In a few short minutes, the simple act of personally placing a few hundred flags along our local streets had impacted me in a way I had not expected. I faced three, for who the meaning of the day needs no explanation. I began to remember other families in my town who know first hand of the sacrifices that were made for us. I was still in a classroom in when we heard that Phil, just a few years older than we were, was lost in VietNam.  And I thought too, of those now in the Persian Gulf. There will never be a need to explain the meaning of Memorial Day to them. Or to their families.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
But there are still many, especially the very young, who may not know or understand that Memorial Day is more than just a picnic day with family and friends. Or that some of the rest of us who knew and have now forgotten, simply seeing the day as a extension of the weekend, perhaps an extra day off  to do chores or even to shop. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
That is where those hundreds of flags Pat gave us have one of their most important purposes. When the kids ask, "Why are all those little flags along the streets?" rather than simply saying the words "Memorial Day," I hope they take a moment to explain to them that each of those flags symbolically honors a person who made a sacrifice, who gave their life so that the rest of us could live free. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
And each of those flags can serve as a reminder to each of us, to personally say "Thank you" to those men and women who could not come home to share in our freedoms, enjoy their own lives, families and friends.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The day and the flags mean we remember. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
(c)copyright 2006,2009 W Jay Wanczyk
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Nelson and the others who responded to my message (quoted below with other extracts from the Vintage HO Daily Digest; I just switched back to individual emails) --
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have no words to express my gratitude for the very positive comments to my message from both other veterans and contemporary non-vets who comprise the members of this Group. I do not believe, however that these views represent the majority of the American population who have largely ignored Vietvets' existence and/or don't even recognize that the US was involved in a doomed war in Vietnam. With only a limited sample size (my nephews and nieces, many Boy Scouts whom I mentor), I have found that US involvement in Vietnam isn't even being taught in schools. How may the lessons of Vietnam be taught to future generations when the lessons are not even being taught?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Off my ivory tower and back to vintage railroads (constructing old wood kits: Ambroid, Quality Craft Models , LaBelle, Ulrich, et al).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Always,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10786
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 5/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Holiday and Follow-up
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
Thank you, W Jay W...  Thank you very much!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
=========================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
the_plainsman wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Fred, and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Fred, I was going to email this to you privately as this important
thread wonund down, but then reda the additional comments today, and
thought that since tomorrow, May 30th, was always the traditional
Decoration Day - Memorial Day, and hopefully with Don's and everyones
good graces, I'd extend this thread for one more time. I had mentioned
previously about playing a small part in setting up those flags along
our main road. I finally found some paragraphs I wrote in 2006 about
that experience and how it touched the lives of a few and a reason why
I believed it important.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
MEMORIAL DAY?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Just this past weekend, residents of the town witnessed the sight of
hundreds and hundreds of small flags planted along the length of the
Township in honor of those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice in
defending our nation and to help celebrate those freedoms with family
and friends.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The tribute, now a tradition for over a decade, is due to the efforts
and generosity of a local business owner and her associates. Cynics
might scoff and say it is just good advertising, but I doubt that few
noticed the tiny one square inch labels. Pat simply thought it would be
a neat thing to do on a special day in the town that has given her and
her family a home, good friends and a successful business with
employees sharing her philosophy of giving back to the community which
they all hold close.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The flag tribute quickly expanded in subsequent years to encompass the
whole two mile legnth of the main road and another road leading from
the State highway. This year I asked her if she might consider adding
my street to the list, as it also leads into the town center and
volunteered my winnings from a friendly game at last summer's
neighborhood block party. She agreed as long as I became part of the
crew of volunteers placing the flags. Little did I know that my simple
effort would have much added meaning. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
As I began placing flags, I spotted Don on his porch, a former Board of
Ed bember and Rotarian. What's Memorial Day? Don knows; he is a Veteran
of World War II and fought for us by defusing land mines up through
Italy. Two blocks later, I saw long time family friend Tony weeding his
yard and said "Hi." Tony saw action in the Pacific Theater of W.W.II He
too, knows the meaning of Memorial Day. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Next street was my own. Just as we began planting the flags, I spotted
lifelong neighbor, Doris. Again, she has first hand knowledge of the
meaning of Memorial Day. She had often displayed the largest flag on
the block at this time of year. I had asked my parents why and learned
that her first husband, and the father of her oldest son, was lost on
one of the last days, if not the last day of World War II. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
In a few short minutes, the simple act of personally placing a few
hundred flags along our local streets had impacted me in a way I had
not expected. I faced three, for who the meaning of the day needs no
explanation. I began to remember other families in my town who know
first hand of the sacrifices that were made for us. I was still in a
classroom in when we heard that Phil, just a few years older than we
were, was lost in VietNam. And I thought too, of those now in the
Persian Gulf. There will never be a need to explain the meaning of
Memorial Day to them. Or to their families.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
But there are still many, especially the very young, who may not know
or understand that Memorial Day is more than just a picnic day with
family and friends. Or that some of the rest of us who knew and have
now forgotten, simply seeing the day as a extension of the weekend,
perhaps an extra day off to do chores or even to shop. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
That is where those hundreds of flags Pat gave us have one of their
most important purposes. When the kids ask, "Why are all those little
flags along the streets?" rather than simply saying the words "Memorial
Day," I hope they take a moment to explain to them that each of those
flags symbolically honors a person who made a sacrifice, who gave their
life so that the rest of us could live free. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
And each of those flags can serve as a reminder to each of us, to
personally say "Thank you" to those men and women who could not come
home to share in our freedoms, enjoy their own lives, families and
friends.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The day and the flags mean we remember. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
(c)copyright 2006,2009 W Jay Wanczyk
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Nelson and the others who responded to my message (quoted below
with other extracts from the Vintage HO Daily Digest; I just switched
back to individual emails) --
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have no words to express my gratitude for the very positive
comments to my message from both other veterans and contemporary
non-vets who comprise the members of this Group. I do not believe,
however that these views represent the majority of the American
population who have largely ignored Vietvets' existence and/or don't
even recognize that the US was involved in a doomed war in Vietnam.
With only a limited sample size (my nephews and nieces, many Boy Scouts
whom I mentor), I have found that US involvement in Vietnam isn't even
being taught in schools. How may the lessons of Vietnam be taught to
future generations when the lessons are not even being taught?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Off my ivory tower and back to vintage railroads (constructing old
wood kits: Ambroid, Quality Craft Models , LaBelle, Ulrich, et al).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Always,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10787
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 5/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Holiday and Follow-up...in a Modeler's Sense
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
John and all members, I may be only one person...  But I am one who
does not forget any person who served us so faithfully in any war or
even in peace time.  I pray for all of you daily and will do so as long
as I have mind, life and breath.  THANK YOU is not enough but it is all
I have to give you besides my prayers, respect and appreciation... If I
could I would give each of you a strong handclasp, a snappy salute and
express my sentiments to you in person.  Since I cannot do that...
ETERNALLY, THANK YOU!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
...And thanks to all of you for your participation in this thread...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                      ==============================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
John Barlow wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Dear Fred and Others,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      In the nearly forty years since I served in Vietnam I came
to learn that I was among a sizeable number of military Vets who served
there and were told soon after our return to America that we were
written off by this society as "expendable" and not to get in the way
of younger people who did not serve and were prime candidates for so
many choice jobs
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      that were coming into being in the job market circa the
mid-1970's. My then own father-in-law, a major university's business
professor, called me and my fellows of both genders "the lost
generation." We should accept our lot in life for having been forced to
participate in a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      losing war that drained the economy of the 1960's with no
return on the funds expended and be glad to get the scraps we would get
offered in the decades to come. That was a head trip. He died in 1981.
I'm 62 (soon to be 63), and I have never forgotten his not so
encouraging words. I worked at several colleges myself and with fellow
Vets who were VA 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      employees who had older VA employees/Vets ask them "how
dare we lose their (the older Vets') war in
Vietnam." America has never gotten over that war but has never come to
grips with what it did not do to support its Servicepeople there as
they were forced to put their lives on the line. In the "Forgetable
Seventies" (and beyond) the non-Vet population
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      charged on to other social issues as it swept that war
under the national carpet, so Fred's finding that his younger relatives
have not gotten the picture, nowhere near the full one, is not
surprising to me. The war that consumed the youth of so many of us has
become the war to be forgotten by all American generations to come.
Sadly, as an Air Force retiree now who served on through two subsequent
decades, I saw evidence that commissioned
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Vietnam Vets were systematically tossed out of the
services and denied promotions and careers by superiors who never
earned the Vietnam-associated decorations. ..to remove the
collective memory of how the top brass of then succumbed to political
pressures and lost viable input status to prosecuting that war. We can
all remember the heroic ordeal of Senator McCain in his imprisonment in
the infamous "Hanoi Hilton", but how many of us know his father,
Admiral McCain, who was CinCPACOM, the senior officer in the Pacific
Theater responsible for commanding that war effort and how Washington
by-passed him on major strategies and gave orders directly to his
subordinates in Vietnam? Teach that to the kids today. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      This is not really a subject for this website, but how
much larger would it be in members or the numbers for any other model
railroading website today if a number of our fellows had not just been
lost to not only the war but to the disgraceful peace that followed in
which 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      men could never recoup their lives or their pre-Vietnam
interests because they were robbed of any opportunity to fully and
simply "come home"?  Look at those tombstones and see not only a
cherished soul lost to this nation but a fellow whose presence was
never again to grace the local hobby shop on an autumn's crisp Saturday
morning, looking at whatever they sought to hopefully create peacefully
in a basement or attic somewhere. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      John W. Barlow (jdenver4150@ yahoo.com)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Vietnam Vet (Sep 69 - Sep 70)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- On Thu, 5/28/09, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...>
wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Holiday and Follow-up
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 6:33 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      Nelson and the others who responded to my message
(quoted below with other extracts from the Vintage HO Daily Digest; I
just switched back to individual emails) --
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have no words to express my gratitude for the very positive comments
to my message from both other veterans and contemporary non-vets who
comprise the members of this Group. I do not believe, however that
these views represent the majority of the American population who have
largely ignored Vietvets' existence and/or don't even recognize that
the US was involved in a doomed war in Vietnam. With only a limited
sample size (my nephews and nieces, many Boy Scouts whom I mentor), I
have found that US involvement in Vietnam isn't even being taught in
schools. How may the lessons of Vietnam be taught to future generations
when the lessons are not even being taught?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Off my ivory tower and back to vintage railroads (constructing old wood
kits: Ambroid, Quality Craft Models , LaBelle, Ulrich, et al).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Always,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 11:01 PM +0000 28/5/09, vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>1a. Re: Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Posted by: "Nelson" greenbrier614@ yahoo.com
greenbrier614
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Wed May 27, 2009 4:12 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Fred,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>It sounds like you made something very positive out of a terrible
situation. The reception you returned to was a crime. As far as anyone
who might still shun you if they discovered you were a Vietnam vet,
THEY are the ones who should be ashamed (and given a good hard kick in
the butt to boot), not you.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Thanks for your service,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> John, as a brother Vietnam vet (Americal Division, Chu Lai, LZ
Bayonet, 1970), I also remember and give thanks and memory to our
fellow vets who didn't come home and to those of us who made it home
but were shunned by most everyone just for being there. Without going
into a detailed litany, the US participation in RVN was likely the
darkest days of US history. Those of us who survived to make it back
home seem to still be pariahs in our society although there are many
(not all) non-vets of our age group who have come around in recent
years to thinking that maybe we had no choice but to go over there,
that we didn't start the war, and maybe, just maybe we were not
voluntary participants in a war which started long before we were born
and continued after we left although many of us still suffer the
consequences many years later (I have three Agent Orange illnesses
including two cancers and diabetes).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Unfortunately, many folk consider Memorial Day as just another
3-day weekend holiday without understanding nor recognizing the reasons
the weekend was created, Many go boating, fishing, travel to distant
relatives, or otherwise ignore or are ignorant of what we went through.
This entire weekend, I received thanks from only other Vietnam vets.
Not a single thanks from non-vets including my own family.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> At least one lesson learned: The returning Iraq and
Afghanistan vets are not receiving the same welcome home treatment,
thanks to the shame delivered upon us Vietnam veterans.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I know this is well off topic, but my intense model railroad
interest is a result of my Vietnam experience, my decision to be left
alone after my negative reception back home, and as a consequence my
desire to seek activities which did not involve people, i.e., model
railroading, which would not further burden me with guilt and scorn.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Nevertheless, I have a model RR layout in the middle of the
Arizona desert which has drawn attention and praise from non-vets who
are my age (mid-60s) and older but who do not know I'm a disabled
Vietvet and who if they learned, would likely keep their distance. I'm
not proud to be a Vietvet, but it was the only war we had going on at
the time and we did our duty the best way we could.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Messages in this topic (13)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>1b. Re: Holiday
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Posted by: "curmudgeon" idioticyahoo@
mindspring. com trainsnwrcs
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Wed May 27, 2009 4:42 pm ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Just like the rest of us (and it wasn't just US Army and Marines
getting off the plane at SFO), next one any of us sees giving any
serviceman (or Veteran) a hard time, you'll see it on the six on the
six o'clock news.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Being Submarines it was A) difficult to get in-county, and B)
getting the Navy to officially 'fess up to the presence of one of out
boats inside territorial waters, all just about any of us can say is
"Vietnam Era".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I was on Big, Black and Never Come Bak Fast Attack boats, nuke, of
course, in from '68-'74.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Turn off the lights, I still glow in the dark.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>From: Harold Stewart <simplygramps@
msn.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Subject: The Old Man ONE TO BE PROUD OF
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>To:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 5:31 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>The Old Man...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>As I came out of the supermarket that sunny day, pushing my cart of
groceries towards my car, I saw an old man with the hood of his car up
and a lady sitting inside the car, with the door open.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>The old man was looking at the engine. I put my groceries away in
my car and continued to watch the old gentleman from about twenty five
feet away.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I saw a young man in his early twenties with a grocery bag in his
arm, walking towards the old man. The old gentleman saw him coming too,
and took a few steps towards him. I saw the old gentleman point to his
open hood and say something.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>The young man put his grocery bag into what looked like a brand new
Cadillac Escalade and then turn back to the old man and I heard him
yell at the old gentleman saying, 'You shouldn't even be allowed to
drive a car at your age.' And then with a wave of his hand, he got in
his car and peeled rubber out of the parking lot.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I saw the old gentleman pull out his handkerchief and mop his brow
as he went back to his car and again looked at the engine. He then went
to his wife and spoke with her and appeared to tell her it would be
okay. I had seen enough and I approached the old man. He saw me coming
and stood straight and as I got near him I said, 'Looks like you're
having a problem.'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>He smiled sheepishly and quietly nodded his head. I looked under
the hood myself and knew that whatever the problem was, it was beyond
me. Looking around I saw a gas station up the road and told the old man
that I would be right back. I drove to the station and went inside and
saw three attendants working on cars. I approached one of them and
related the problem the old man had with his car and offered to pay
them if they could follow me back down and help him.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>The old man had pushed the heavy car under the shade of a tree and
appeared to be comforting his wife. When he saw us, he straightened up
and thanked me for my help. As the mechanics diagnosed the problem
(overheated engine) I spoke with the old gentleman.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>When I shook hands with him earlier, he had noticed my Marine Corps
ring and had commented about it, telling me that he had been a Marine
too. I nodded and asked the usual question, 'What outfit did you serve
with?'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>He had mentioned that he served with the first Marine Division at
Tarawa, Saipan, Iwo Jima and Guadalcanal . He had hit all the big ones
and retired from the Corps after the war was over. As we talked we
heard the car engine come on and saw the mechanics lower the hood..
They came over to us as the old man reached for his wallet, but was
stopped by me and I told him I would just put the bill on my AAA card.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>He still reached for the wallet and handed me a card that I assumed
had his name and address on it and I stuck it in my pocket.. We all
shook hands all around again and I said my goodbye's to his wife. I
then told the two mechanics that I would follow them back up to the
station. Once at the station I told them that they had interrupted
their own jobs to come along with me and help the old man. I said I
wanted to pay for the help, but they refused to charge me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>One of them pulled out a card from his pocket looking exactly like
the card the old man had given to me. Both of the men told me then,
that they were Marine Corps Reserves. Once again we shook hands all
around and as I was leaving, one of them told me I should look at the
card the old man had given to me. I said I would and drove off.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>For some reason I had gone about two blocks when I pulled over and
took the card out of my pocket and looked at it for a long, long time.
The name of the old gentleman was on the card in golden leaf and under
his name....... 'Congressional Medal of Honor Society.'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I sat there motionless looking at the card and reading it over and
over. I looked up from the card and smiled to no one but myself and
marveled that on this day, four Marines had all come together, because
one of us needed help. He was an old man all right, but it felt good to
have stood next to greatness and courage and an honor to have been in
his presence. Remember, OLD men like him gave you FREEDOM for America .
Thanks to those who served...& those who supported them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>America is not at war. The U.S. Military is at war. America is at
the Mall. If you don't stand behind our troops, PLEASE feel free to
stand in front of them!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Remember, Freedom isn't "Free" -- thousands have paid the price so
you can enjoy what you have today.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>LET'S DO THIS -- JUST 19 WORDS
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> GOD OUR FATHER, WALK THROUGH MY HOUSE AND TAKE AWAY ALL MY WORRIES
AND ILLNESSES; AND PLEASE WATCH OVER AND HEAL MY FAMILY
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>4b. Re: Fw: The Old Man ONE TO BE PROUD OF
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Posted by: "Donald R. Staton" chpln1@verizon.
net trainsstaton
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Thu May 28, 2009 8:42 am ((PDT))
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>/Everyone who ever served and their families and loved ones are
prayed
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>for daily...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>They were and are our first line of defense against tyranny and
aggression.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Stay safe... Be greater blessed...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>For God, Country and the Peace keepers of law enforcement and the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>military...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Don Staton, Chaplain to Peace Keepers. Lifetime train lover.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>=========== ========= ========= ========= ========= ======
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                              		
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10788
						From: Jay Wanczyk
						Date: 5/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Huntingdon Model Works - Mystery Locomotive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In the 1960's, there was a small manufacturer from west-central Pennsylvania, Huntingdon Model Works (of Huntingdon, PA) who produced several interesting models. They had two interesting car kits (that I know of): 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kit HO 2001 was an all metal kit for an Alton and Southern Transfer Caboose, with over 25 detailed castings.  The casting work is on par with the metal castings used in Quality Craft kits of that time, and might be understandably be mistaken by some as a Red Ball model, but the well detailed castings do not have that razor sharp edge.  It is one of my favorite non-Eastern caboose models and well worth seeking out; the prototype dated from the late 1940's and the model is faithful to it.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kit HO 2002 was a "Steam Powered Little Hook" which incorporates their Steam Donkey Crane structure kit on a flat car and incorporates a wood carbody with over 38 detailed castings.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      There were also at least three logging related trackside structure kits composed of wood and white metal: K 3001 Steam Donkey Pile Driver, K 3002 Steam Donkey Crane, and K 3003 Steam Donkey Log Loader which straddled the tracks. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Interestingly, they also imported two excellent brass models, both sought after, a Jersey Central 4-6-4T  tank style bi-directional commuter locomotive and a Philadelphia Traction Co.- PTC - double truck trolley street sweeper with three motors, two for the operating brooms.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Lastly, they had a small line of powered traction equipment, which were made of mostly cast white metal sides, ends and details with wood roof and floor.  K 1001 Lake Shore Interurban; K 1002 and K 1003, two different North Shore freight (box) motors and K-1004, Johnstown (PA) Traction # 311. These four kits castings are comparatively crude and may have been made in "cardboard" molds, but do build into credible "layout-quality" models when completed.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      However, I have a "mystery" kit for another model they had sold or were planning on releasing.  It is patterned after a prototype "Trolley Locomotive" that was typically used into the 1950's by Western Pennsylvania bituminous coal companies for shifting full sized hoppers at the mine loaders (not surprisingly in the Huntingdon, PA area.) I have found numerous references to them on the web, but no photos so far of the prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The kit, shown in the attached photo, is composed entirely of beautifully made white metal castings, of high quality similar to the Alton & Sounthern caboose kit mentioned above.  The kits came from a lot believed (by the reliable seller) to be Huntingdon's company remainders.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Is anyone familiar with either the prototype, have plans that I could get a copy of, or have any other information on this kit.  It could easily be powered with the drive from the original version of the Grandt Line 25 ton GE Boxcab, but I'd like to find out the exact type of sideframes the prototype used, (might be a Taylor 4-wheel) and type of current collection used (pantograph or pole).  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10789
						From: louis niederlander
						Date: 5/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Holiday and Follow-up...in a Modeler's Sense
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 
I have enjoyed the commentary and would like to add a little of my own; its only a little off-topic because it happened at a train show.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
As I was leaving the NMRA show at Lakeland Community College (Kirtland Ohio) last month, an old, sort of bent over, black gentleman was walking in and he was wearing a leather flight jacket.  As he passed I said that I was in the Air Force but then said to him: You're the real deal, aren't you????  He shook my hand, introduced himself and gave me his business card.  It said Roy Richardson, Oakwood, Ohio, Tuskegee Airman.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
You just stand in awe, salute and say thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Louis N
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: chpln1@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 09:59:21 -0400
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Holiday and Follow-up...in a Modeler's Sense

                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      John and all members, I may be only one person...  But I am one who does not forget any person who served us so faithfully in any war or even in peace time.  I pray for all of you daily and will do so as long as I have mind, life and breath.  THANK YOU is not enough but it is all I have to give you besides my prayers, respect and appreciation... If I could I would give each of you a strong handclasp, a snappy salute and express my sentiments to you in person.  Since I cannot do that... ETERNALLY, THANK YOU!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                      ...And thanks to all of you for your participation in this thread...

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Staton in VA.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. See how. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10790
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 5/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Mantua Mighty Mite
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis T, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                Congratulations on 
your addition of the Mantua Mighty Mite. They are a little harder to find then 
some of the other small post war Mantua 0-4-0 designs (Lil Goat and Busy Bee). I 
have dates that they were produced 1948-1952.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           As the pictures will show 
the tender is the same as used on the Mantua little goat. The one picture, 
(engine on the bottom) showing the under side of both tender and 
engine has the right tender trucks. The engine on top does not. The original 
Mantua trucks for this engine had the slightly thicker axle ( no not as thick as 
the Athearn Hi-F RBD engines).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Normally I would not have 
two of the same engines but there are differences that I will note. I will let 
some others say what is what. If you notice one engine has a cast metal frame 
and the other a brass frame. I have heard it said the brass frame came first and 
even some say pre war. Yet I have never heard this engine produced pre 
war.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Second difference is in 
the tenders. Basic design the same but again one has a brass frame , the other a 
cast frame. Also look at the picture showing the hook up from engine to tender 
is different. What's right, what's wrong or are they both right ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Finally look at the 
picture showing the top of the 2 tenders. One has an added square/box 
between the sides in the front where the electrical hook up is that the brass 
framed tender doesn't. Yes things can be filed (and some really good jobs are 
done) but I find no marks to show one was reworked.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Well hope it helps. Again 
I'll let some others put out their take on this. Should make an interesting 
thread.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10791
						From: trainliker
						Date: 5/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mantua Mighty Mite
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      There is also quite a difference in the cylinder/valve/saddle casting.  With the earlier one looking both nicer and cleaner.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I've always been amused by the rather obvious screws in the tender sides.  (Many say there is a "prototype for everything", but I don't think so in this case.)  I think it is odd that a company endeavoring to make fairly good scale models wouldn't have tried harder to design around that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dennis T, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>           Congratulations on your addition of the Mantua Mighty Mite. They are a little harder to find then some of the other small post war Mantua 0-4-0 designs (Lil Goat and Busy Bee). I have dates that they were produced 1948-1952.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      As the pictures will show the tender is the same as used on the Mantua little goat. The one picture, (engine on the bottom) showing the under side of both tender and engine has the right tender trucks. The engine on top does not. The original Mantua trucks for this engine had the slightly thicker axle ( no not as thick as the Athearn Hi-F RBD engines).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      Normally I would not have two of the same engines but there are differences that I will note. I will let some others say what is what. If you notice one engine has a cast metal frame and the other a brass frame. I have heard it said the brass frame came first and even some say pre war. Yet I have never heard this engine produced pre war.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      Second difference is in the tenders. Basic design the same but again one has a brass frame , the other a cast frame. Also look at the picture showing the hook up from engine to tender is different. What's right, what's wrong or are they both right ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      Finally look at the picture showing the top of the 2 tenders. One has an added square/box between the sides in the front where the electrical hook up is that the brass framed tender doesn't. Yes things can be filed (and some really good jobs are done) but I find no marks to show one was reworked.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      Well hope it helps. Again I'll let some others put out their take on this. Should make an interesting thread.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                                           Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10792
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 5/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Huntingdon Model Works - Mystery Locomotive [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay ,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
have another one of those tiny locos,  most likely from the same source 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
... I know even less than you, now I have at least learned a little 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
about the prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10793
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 5/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Huntingdon Model Works - Mystery Locomotive [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Gerold, I plan on attending the biennial East Penn Club's traction modeling meet at Villanova University outside Philadelphia tomorrow, and will ask some long-time dealers I know like Joel of MTS, who has helped me with other projects and report anything more I can find out about them, but figured I'd ask here first.  Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Jay ,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have another one of those tiny locos,  most likely from the same source 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ... I know even less than you, now I have at least learned a little 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> about the prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10794
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 5/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mantua Mighty Mite [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hey Guys!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Here is a video of one I just sold..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Saddly (for me) it sold for about $20 less than I paid for it.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=57133611
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The engine is a very good runner. The guy had a steal at $61 and free shipping!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Later!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean

                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10795
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 5/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Huntingdon Model Works - Mystery Locomotive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Hi Gerold, I plan on attending the biennial East Penn Club's traction modeling meet at Villanova University outside Philadelphia tomorrow, and will ask some long-time dealers I know like Joel of MTS, who has helped me with other projects and report anything more I can find out about them, but figured I'd ask here first.  Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 by coincidence I have contacted Joel some days ago ( had bought a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
trolley at ebay from him) and at this opportunity have asked him for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
permission to add MTS catalogs to Larrys HOseeker website ... he gave 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
his ok. Please let us know anything that might be of interest... it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
surely is more rewarding if you talk with Joel than when I ask him by 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
email.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10796
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 5/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mantua Mighty Mite [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Note the cab.  I consider this loco to be the 
"transition" model between the early Mantua models and the modern-era 
ones.  That cab carries thru to this day, although now made in 
plastic.  The rest of the loco goes back to the "Goat"  .  

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 10:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Mighty Mite 
  [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis T, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  Congratulations on your addition of the Mantua Mighty Mite. They are a little 
  harder to find then some of the other small post war Mantua 0-4-0 designs (Lil 
  Goat and Busy Bee). I have dates that they were produced 
  1948-1952.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           As the pictures will 
  show the tender is the same as used on the Mantua little goat. The one 
  picture, (engine on the bottom) showing the under side of both 
  tender and engine has the right tender trucks. The engine on top does not. The 
  original Mantua trucks for this engine had the slightly thicker axle ( no not 
  as thick as the Athearn Hi-F RBD engines).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Normally I would not 
  have two of the same engines but there are differences that I will note. I 
  will let some others say what is what. If you notice one engine has a cast 
  metal frame and the other a brass frame. I have heard it said the brass frame 
  came first and even some say pre war. Yet I have never heard this engine 
  produced pre war.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Second difference is in 
  the tenders. Basic design the same but again one has a brass frame , the other 
  a cast frame. Also look at the picture showing the hook up from engine to 
  tender is different. What's right, what's wrong or are they both right 
  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Finally look at the 
  picture showing the top of the 2 tenders. One has an added 
  square/box between the sides in the front where the electrical hook up is that 
  the brass framed tender doesn't. Yes things can be filed (and some really good 
  jobs are done) but I find no marks to show one was reworked.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Well hope it helps. 
  Again I'll let some others put out their take on this. Should make an 
  interesting thread.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
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  Date: 05/29/09 06:28:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10797
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Olympic Express GP9?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      There's someone on the HO Yard Sale list selling some older stuff, and he has an Olympic Express GP9, which was made in Japan but the shell looks very much like the Athearn's. Does anyone know the history of these units? Was it a combined effort?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You can see it in his photo album (4th row down).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nvrr49/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10798
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 5/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      As I recall........
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It was a conversion chassis for the Athearn. I think it was made  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
around the time that Athearn was a Hi-Fi drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On May 30, 2009, at 11:34 PM, Nelson wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There's someone on the HO Yard Sale list selling some older stuff,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and he has an Olympic Express GP9, which was made in Japan but the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> shell looks very much like the Athearn's. Does anyone know the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> history of these units? Was it a combined effort?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> You can see it in his photo album (4th row down).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/nvrr49/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Nelson 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10799
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      They did offer a brass GP-9, supposedly in several paint schemes although 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the only ads I've seen showed UP yellow & gray with no lettering.  They also 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
had at least a couple steam locomotives, a UP Challenger and a USRA 2-8-2.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 12:04 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Olympic Express GP9?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> As I recall........
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It was a conversion chassis for the Athearn. I think it was made
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> around the time that Athearn was a Hi-Fi drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On May 30, 2009, at 11:34 PM, Nelson wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> There's someone on the HO Yard Sale list selling some older stuff,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> and he has an Olympic Express GP9, which was made in Japan but the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> shell looks very much like the Athearn's. Does anyone know the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> history of these units? Was it a combined effort?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> You can see it in his photo album (4th row down).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/nvrr49/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10800
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 5/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have an Olympic Express F7A with the brass frame.  I also have an Athearn drive and a Globe drive that use cast zamac(?) frames and they use an almost identical drive mechanism. Since one is in a Globe box I would assume it was sold before Globe went out of business. These were sold as drive units I presume to use with the plastic frame models. I have generally been under the impression that the Hi  F dirve was later.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sat, 5/30/09, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Olympic Express GP9?
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Saturday, May 30, 2009, 10:04 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      As I recall........

                                                                                                                                                                                      It was a conversion chassis for the Athearn. I think it was made  
                                                                                                                                                                                      around the time that Athearn was a Hi-Fi drive.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                                                                                      On May 30, 2009, at 11:34 PM, Nelson wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      > There's someone on the HO Yard Sale list selling some older stuff,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > and he has an Olympic Express GP9, which was made in Japan but the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > shell looks very much like the Athearn's. Does anyone know the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > history of these units? Was it a combined effort?
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > You can see it in his photo album (4th row down).
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://www.flickr.com/photos/nvrr49/
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Nelson


                                                                                                                                                                                      ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10801
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi-F drive came first (late 50's).  Olympic Express was late 1960.  The
                                                                                                                                                                                      
attached ad is from MR March 1961.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I remember Mario at Hobby Horse trying to talk my Dad into buying me an F-7, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Athearn shell and the olympic express chassis, said it was the finest drive 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
out at the time, when I wanted my second locomotive (what I had so far was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
an Athearn Hi-F F-7 in Rio Grande, but my Godfather bought me an Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
dome kit in PRR that same Christmas)..  I really wanted a Penn-Line GG-1 but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
they were $ 19.95, too expensive I was told.  What I wound up finally 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
getting was a Penn-Line F-7 (ten bucks)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Wobbly913" <wobbly913@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 1:37 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Olympic Express GP9?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have an Olympic Express F7A with the brass frame. I also have an Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                      
drive and a Globe drive that use cast zamac(?) frames and they use an almost
                                                                                                                                                                                      
identical drive mechanism. Since one is in a Globe box I would assume it was
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sold before Globe went out of business. These were sold as drive units I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
presume to use with the plastic frame models. I have generally been under
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the impression that the Hi F dirve was later.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- On Sat, 5/30/09, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Olympic Express GP9?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Date: Saturday, May 30, 2009, 10:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As I recall........
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It was a conversion chassis for the Athearn. I think it was made
                                                                                                                                                                                      
around the time that Athearn was a Hi-Fi drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
On May 30, 2009, at 11:34 PM, Nelson wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There's someone on the HO Yard Sale list selling some older stuff,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and he has an Olympic Express GP9, which was made in Japan but the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> shell looks very much like the Athearn's. Does anyone know the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> history of these units? Was it a combined effort?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> You can see it in his photo album (4th row down).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/nvrr49/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Nelson 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10802
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 5/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Perhaps it is best to be reminded that Athearn used the Globe brand  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
name (which they owned) for the introduction of their new line of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
molded plastic passenger cars and locomotives. They were not "Globe"  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
products.  The original Globe company (Frank Taylor and Carl Traub)  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sold the company to Athearn c. 1951 long before any of Athearn's  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
molded products were brought to market.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10803
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 5/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      And as a member of this group also, I would like it to go to a good home.  I received the unit as part of a group that includes a Hi-F drive Athern drive unit, so the time frame makes since.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi-F drive came first (late 50's).  Olympic Express was late 1960.  The
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> attached ad is from MR March 1961.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I remember Mario at Hobby Horse trying to talk my Dad into buying me an F-7, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Athearn shell and the olympic express chassis, said it was the finest drive 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> out at the time, when I wanted my second locomotive (what I had so far was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> an Athearn Hi-F F-7 in Rio Grande, but my Godfather bought me an Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> dome kit in PRR that same Christmas)..  I really wanted a Penn-Line GG-1 but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> they were $ 19.95, too expensive I was told.  What I wound up finally 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> getting was a Penn-Line F-7 (ten bucks)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "Wobbly913" <wobbly913@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 1:37 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Olympic Express GP9? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10804
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for the MR ad, Don. That gives me an idea of what the mechanism is like. It looks like the gear towers used spur gears instead of worms, like a Hobbytown drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The steamers are interesting. I really like the look of the 4-6-0, and the Challenger looks like one of UP's earlier 4-6-6-4 designs.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi-F drive came first (late 50's).  Olympic Express was late 1960.  The
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> attached ad is from MR March 1961.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I remember Mario at Hobby Horse trying to talk my Dad into buying me an F-7, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Athearn shell and the olympic express chassis, said it was the finest drive 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> out at the time, when I wanted my second locomotive (what I had so far was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> an Athearn Hi-F F-7 in Rio Grande, but my Godfather bought me an Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> dome kit in PRR that same Christmas)..  I really wanted a Penn-Line GG-1 but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> they were $ 19.95, too expensive I was told.  What I wound up finally 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> getting was a Penn-Line F-7 (ten bucks)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10805
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, you just got some more free advertising. :) I thought it might be someone from this group.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> And as a member of this group also, I would like it to go to a good home. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10806
						From: Nelson
						Date: 5/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Holiday and Follow-up
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm glad our comments helped, Fred, but sad to hear it's apparently so rare. How an ineptly prosecuted war became the fault of those who served bravely is a mystery to me. I was only 12 when Vietnam ended, since I was born during the last year of the Baby Boom. As such, I've never felt a connection to it and all of the self-indulgent crap they reminisce about endlessly as some great cultural awakening. They should honor those who protected their right to be self-indulgent instead.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
For what it's worth, most people I know strongly support the troops, and think Vietnam vets got a raw deal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I'll get off my soapbox for now,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Nelson and the others who responded to my message (quoted below with other extracts from the Vintage HO Daily Digest; I just switched back to individual emails) --
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have no words to express my gratitude for the very positive comments to my message from both other veterans and contemporary non-vets who comprise the members of this Group. I do not believe, however that these views represent the majority of the American population who have largely ignored Vietvets' existence and/or don't even recognize that the US was involved in a doomed war in Vietnam. With only a limited sample size (my nephews and nieces, many Boy Scouts whom I mentor), I have found that US involvement in Vietnam isn't even being taught in schools. How may the lessons of Vietnam be taught to future generations when the lessons are not even being taught?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Off my ivory tower and back to vintage railroads (constructing old wood kits: Ambroid, Quality Craft Models , LaBelle, Ulrich, et al).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Always,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10807
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 5/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 11:52 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Olympic Express GP9?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Perhaps it is best to be reminded that Athearn used the Globe brand
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> name (which they owned) for the introduction of their new line of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> molded plastic passenger cars and locomotives. They were not "Globe"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> products.  The original Globe company (Frank Taylor and Carl Traub)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sold the company to Athearn c. 1951 long before any of Athearn's
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> molded products were brought to market.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Carl did however maintain ties with Globe since he's the one who made the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
dies for the F-7.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10808
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 6/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: wanted  older  athearn loco f7a gear
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Randy,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I sent you one a week or so ago. Have you not received it??
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I thought I used the address you sent me. I should have another one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: solly_46 <solly_46@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 4:07:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] wanted older athearn loco f7a gear

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      please view photos athearn gear needed 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Looking for a gear for older Athearn F7A engine. Two individuals said it was an old Athearn, one thought it was a Mantua. All my boxes are labeled Athearn.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Trucks are metal sides. Screw hold them on. Engine must be 40+ years old. Had when I was a child.

                                                                                                                                                                                      There are two screws that hold the engine. There are two weights on each side of the motor. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Randy

                                                                                                                                                                                      solly_46@yahoo. com


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10809
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 6/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Huntingdon Model Works - Mystery Locomotive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Biennial East Penn traction meet this past weekend was great fun with dealers and modelers from as far as California gathered together at the famed Villanova University. Although photos of this year's meet have not yet been posted, photos of previous meets, including display layouts and contest winners may be found here:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.eastpenn.org/photos.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I showed the photo of what I strongly believe to be a Huntingdon Model Works kit to Joel Lovich of MTS Imports (successor to Model Traction Supply in teh 1980's) and he studied it carefully, looking up at me with a big smile and giving a laugh, "I don't know everything!"  He then enthusiastically reached below his table and pulled out his latest vintage find to show me.  I am glad to hear that you approached him about scanning his catalog for HOseeker.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
When I found an unlabled vintage (mid 1960's) NYC Lo-V subway car kit three years ago at a Pennsylvania train show, Joel as well as O-Car Company's Quentin Carnecelli (in O scale today) were two names I remembered and contacted them both to answer all my questions.  I could not have found two better ambassadors to the world of traction and NYC subway modeling.  Joel quickly identified my kit as one being produced by Traction Models of Farmingdale NY (Bob Lindemann)and later sent me an original brochure which I will scan for HOseeker as soon as I get up to speed with that equipment.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Last summer, when I decided to compile an all-time list of all HO scale NYC Subway and Elevated car models ever manufactured, Joel gave me complete access to his MTS brass production records which helped immesurably in my effort.  Unbelievably, what I thought would be a simple list of perhaps 40 or so vintage and current models, turned out to be a list of over 85 NYC models with alomost 900 entries of data on the group!  The list is available on line to all members of the New York City Transit Modeling Group on Yahoo, and I plan to eventually suplement it with photographs and a commentary as time and acess to the models is developed.   
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In the future, I will present a list here of just the vintage portion of the data on NYC Subway and Elevated car models as well as other city's models that vintage modelers are likely to find.  There were not that many made during our time period covered here!  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Meanwhile Gerold, I'll start checking the mid-1960's publications to see if I can find anything more on our kits or what happend to Huntingdon Model Works.  They seemed to have ended business suddenly, and their brass CNJ locomoyives were remainered by another concern back then.  Perhaps illness or financial difficulties ended the business and possibly our neat kits may have been a still-born project that was never marketed?  More questions to try to find the answers to! I'll keep you and all posted.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Others were stumped as well, so I'll have to do more research.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi Gerold, I plan on attending the biennial East Penn Club's traction modeling meet at Villanova University outside Philadelphia tomorrow, and will ask some long-time dealers I know like Joel of MTS, who has helped me with other projects and report anything more I can find out about them, but figured I'd ask here first.  Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  by coincidence I have contacted Joel some days ago ( had bought a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> trolley at ebay from him) and at this opportunity have asked him for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> permission to add MTS catalogs to Larrys HOseeker website ... he gave 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> his ok. Please let us know anything that might be of interest... it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> surely is more rewarding if you talk with Joel than when I ask him by 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> email.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10810
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Pacemaker Line
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              There 
has been discussion about the use of Athearn/Globe plastic bodies by many other 
companies. I wanted to add the Pacemaker Line to it. It is a little lesser known 
item but still interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           These pictures and write 
up deal only with the track powered F unit. They also produced a battery 
operated F unit called the "Hobo". In an effort so as to not confuse them I 
will ONLY talk/describe the track powered model now.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           The pictured engine was 
distributed by K&O Models Inc. of 14720 Keswick St, Van Nuys Calif. The very 
colorful box says kit no. 195 and also says F-9 although the plans inside say 
F-7. The plastic unpainted bodies were Athearn/Globe and contain all the little 
parts (still sealed in packages). It also contains 4 decals sheets for the 
B&O, Pennsy, Southern Pacific and Santa Fe. The main frame is cast. The 
powered drive truck has a vertically mounted motor with cast side frames. Since 
everything is mint I didn't take out of the bags and I hope you can see the 
plans sheet as to the contents of the boxed item.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10811
						From: Clark Gregory
						Date: 6/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Chicago hobby shop
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I will be in Chicago later this month and looking for best hobby shop especially for older vintage items.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I apologize if this is too off topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks, Clark
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10812
						From: trainliker
						Date: 6/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Chicago hobby shop
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      It's probably hard to find vintage items in hobby shops in general.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I grew up in the Chicago area and many wonderful shops are now a distant memory (such as All Nations), but several that I visit when in the area (which hasn't been for a few years) are:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Chicagoland Hobbies
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.chicagoland-hobby.com/site/index.php
                                                                                                                                                                                      
6017 N. Northwest Highway
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Chicago, IL 60631
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Phone: 773-775-4848
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Al's Hobbies in Elmhurst (just north of UP, ex C&NW, tracks)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://store.alshobbyshop.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
121 North Addison Road
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Elmhurst, IL  60126
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Phone: 630.832.4908
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Hill's Hobby and Collectors Shop
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.hillshobby.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
60 West Dundee Road
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Buffalo Grove, Illinois 60089
                                                                                                                                                                                      
(847) 541-3500 PHONE
                                                                                                                                                                                      
(They are in a different location than the last time I was there which was 10 Prairie Ave, Park Ridge, IL, 60068. Buffalo Grove is even further away from Chicago than Park Ridge).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Clark Gregory" <cgregory7@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I will be in Chicago later this month and looking for best hobby shop especially for older vintage items.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I apologize if this is too off topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks, Clark
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10813
						From: trainliker
						Date: 6/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Chicago hobby shop
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Actually, you might get more bang for your railroad time by doing other railroady things in the Chicago area besides hobby shops.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Some suggestions:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Just riding the el all over.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Perhaps ride the "Metra" commuter out and back to someplace (you could ride it to Elmhurst and just walk about a block or so to Al's Hobbies, by the way.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Visit the Museum of Science and Industry (I most always do) and see the new big HO layout.  And also the Pioneer Zephyr, NYC 999, and more.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Visit some of the remaining downtown stations.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Ride the South Shore Line.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Go to the Illinois Railroad Museum in Union, Illinois which is REALLY good.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Clark Gregory" <cgregory7@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I will be in Chicago later this month and looking for best hobby shop especially for older vintage items.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I apologize if this is too off topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks, Clark
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10814
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 6/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Chicago hobby shop
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      It is a little further away, but in Antioch, near the state line, is Friends Hobby. 311 W. Depot Street, across the parking lot from the Metra station.

                                                                                                                                                                                      It is an old style hobby shop, where you can come in, chat a while about anything, the owner (Bob) is a great guy and very knowledgable about trains (Real and model), and he has quite a bit of older stuff as well as newer stuff. I was there last night, bringing him a locomotive I fixed for him (He is a Viet Nam veteran and has some health problems from chemical exposure; I have been donating my time to fix up older stuff for him that he can't anymore). I saw a Cary FT lead body there still, some older TMI cars, and he told me he is getting into finding and selling older wood model kits.

                                                                                                                                                                                      He has a lot of hard to find stuff from Athearn too.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Tue, 6/2/09, Clark
 Gregory <cgregory7@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Clark Gregory <cgregory7@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Chicago hobby shop
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009, 11:45 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      






    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      I will be in Chicago later this month and looking for best hobby shop especially for older vintage items.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I apologize if this is too off topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks, Clark 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10815
						From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com
						Date: 6/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Pacemaker Line [3 Attachments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have one each of the track powered loco and the HOBO loco both offered by Pacemaker. The only reference in a magazine to them that I have seen was a report on the 1954 or so Trade Show, I believe... in Model Railroader.  I may have seen an ad for the HOBO at some point, as well. Both of the pieces that I have, feature what are obviously early Globe/Athearn shells decorated for the Santa Fe. The add on details... the number boards, horns, and decals were included in separate bags, just like the early Globe/Athearns. The track powered version was RTR, and I assumed that it was purchased that way. The original wheels were die cast, and had rotted. I replaced them with Athearn wheels since the axles were the same diameter. It doesn't run that badly for its vintage. Pictures of the HOBO can be viewed on Tony Cook's HO resource site, for those interested.
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      







                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10816
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Pacemaker Line [3 Attachments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks for the 
response but it does bring up some questions. My track powered Pacemaker diesel 
is in kit form , not RTR. Also as I noted it is undecorated but with 4 sets 
of different decals. Only the battery powered engine came decorated in 
Santa Fe livery.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            It makes me wonder 
if there were different types/runs available. I had no idea as to a definite 
date so the 1954 you mentioned is interesting. Pictures of the battery operated 
diesel to follow. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 9:22 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Pacemaker Line 
  [3 Attachments
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I have one each of the track powered loco and the HOBO loco both offered by 
  Pacemaker. The only reference in a magazine to them that I have seen was a 
  report on the 1954 or so Trade Show, I believe... in Model Railroader.  I 
  may have seen an ad for the HOBO at some point, as well. Both of the pieces 
  that I have, feature what are obviously early Globe/Athearn shells decorated 
  for the Santa Fe. The add on details... the number boards, horns, and decals 
  were included in separate bags, just like the early Globe/Athearns. The track 
  powered version was RTR, and I assumed that it was purchased that way. The 
  original wheels were die cast, and had rotted. I replaced them with Athearn 
  wheels since the axles were the same diameter. It doesn't run that badly for 
  its vintage. Pictures of the HOBO can be viewed on Tony Cook's HO resource 
  site, for those interested.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10817
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: pacemaker Battery powered
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                 Pictures of 
the battery powered Pacemaker F-7. Unlike my mint Pacemaker track powered F-7 
that came undecorated you can see by the plans for the "battery powered type it 
was factory painted for the Santa Fe. Yet something a little strange is printed 
in the upper right hand corner "Apply Penn decals to front and 
sides. Instructions are on the rear of the decal"    
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I 
don't know where the picture of this battery powered engine in the box came 
from.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10818
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 6/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Athearn metal RDCs
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The recent thread on Athearn RDCs prompted me to dig down into my way- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
back  stash and to fish out a set of three metal Athearn RDCs that I  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
have had since the early 1960s . All have the double metal sides, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
all are c. 72' in length. They originally came from Gerry White of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Redwood City, CA in the '50s, probably the best professional model  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
locomotive builders of his age, and incidentally a leader in the group  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
that designed the RP-25  wheel.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
1) RDC-4 full RPO with a pretty sophisticated custom made brass Gerry  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
White machined-brass sprung & equalized power truck and DC-71 motor.   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The other truck is also a pretty fine sprung equalized White  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
production, but only for electrical pickup.  Truck side frames are  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Athearn. The floor is brass with all cast underbody parts neatly   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
affixed. The only parts missing are the truck-mounted pilots. The ends  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
have all light "holes" carefully drilled out, and step sides are  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
machined.  The wire grabs are in place. The car is pretty heavy- 1.110  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
lbs.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
2) RDC-3  RPO/baggage/passenger.  Unpowered.  All grabs in place up on  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to roof. The trucks have the pilots attached.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
3) RDC-1 Full passenger. No trucks. The rest is intact.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
All couplers are original Athearn ring-shank dummies.  There are no  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
boxes. There is no rust.  All castings are quite shiny and intact  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
without any obvious evidence of zincpest.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
These good looking models have intrigued me over the years, but in  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
real time they are in fact surplus to my needs and interests.  If  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
there is any interest  by listers in purchasing them, please contact  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
me off line.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10819
						From: RaymondLorts@yahoo.com
						Date: 6/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: train 1940
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Guy's I play with model railroad ,Europan and American trains, I use 1/87.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I got this 2-8-0 (IHC) Consolidation  U.S.A.T.C ( U.S.Army Transportation Corps)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      0-8-0 Shifter/ USRA Tender , U.S.Army 10 flatncar's ,1 Boxcar, 1 Caboose.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I got (German Nalional Railway) DRG Class 17 4-6-0  and DRG Class 50 2-10-0 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Roco ,Liliput,Fleischmann , Lima,  60 freight car's ,20 Passenger car's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       I had a Stroke, I don't talk every well,get with help my spelling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               I live in Gladstone,Oregon.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ray L

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10820
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: train 1940
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                       Hi Ray L,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Welcome aboard. Glad 
to have you as a member. Nice to see you like the HO trains. It's a very nice 
hobby and very therapeutic. Sorry to hear about the stroke as I had one a 
while back and I still get "my mix all talked up"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 11:09 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] train 1940
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Guy's I play with model railroad ,Europan and 
        American trains, I use 1/87.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      I got this 2-8-0 (IHC) Consolidation  U.S.A.T.C ( U.S.Army 
        Transportation Corps)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      0-8-0 Shifter/ USRA Tender , U.S.Army 10 flatncar's ,1 Boxcar, 1 
        Caboose.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      I got (German Nalional Railway) DRG Class 17 4-6-0  and DRG 
        Class 50 2-10-0 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Roco ,Liliput,Fleischman n , Lima,  60 freight car's ,20 
        Passenger car's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       I had a Stroke, I don't talk every well,get with help my 
        spelling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                               I live in 
        Gladstone,Oregon.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
        Ray L

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10821
						From: Clark Gregory
						Date: 6/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Chicago hobby shop
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I very much appreciate the good replies.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I already have Museum of Science & Industry and probably most of a day at Union on my agenda.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
However, the other shops sound real interesting, especially Friends in Antioch.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Many thanks for the information,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Clark
                                                                                                                                                                                      
South Carolina
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Clark Gregory" <cgregory7@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I will be in Chicago later this month.... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10822
						From: Nelson
						Date: 6/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Pacemaker Line [3 Attachments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      This battery powered F-unit jogged a memory. When I was a kid in the early 70's, I had a friend who had an HO scale battery operated steam loco that took 2 C cells in the boiler. He brought it over once, and we ran it one my layout. The kicker was that it ran from track power as well, which is odd because one would think the motor would have been rated around 3 volts. It ran quite well too, not a rocket like an Athearn Hustler.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
My memory of the appearance is a bit foggy, but it was more toy-like and oversized than the Pacemeker F. I think it was a dark gray-blue. I wonder if the same Japanese firm that made this unit for Pacemaker also made the steamer.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>           Thanks for the response but it does bring up some questions. My track powered Pacemaker diesel is in kit form , not RTR. Also as I noted it is undecorated but with 4 sets of different decals. Only the battery powered engine came decorated in Santa Fe livery.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       It makes me wonder if there were different types/runs available. I had no idea as to a definite date so the 1954 you mentioned is interesting. Pictures of the battery operated diesel to follow. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                          Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10823
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                 Since it 
is pretty quiet on the site I have sent pictures of a set that I like. 
Normally I don't collect Fleischmann HO but I really like these plastic American 
style Hi Level passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Polk's Blue Book of 
Hobbies  1959  edition shows this set. They are listed at the top of 
Page 26. That page has them listed (misprint) as Flesichmann. Every other page 
has Fleischmann. I don't know how early before this they were produced. The set 
shows a third coach that I don't have plus my "set" actually didn't come as 
one. (Notice the coupler difference on the cars and the engines).  The set 
sold for $ 49.95.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             The 
engines, FA ?  Alco style, are all metal with real screen in them. 
Very nice detail and heavy. No. 1341 is powered and No. 1342 is a dummy. They 
are painted and lettered (factory) in the Santa Fe War Bonnet 
scheme.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             The Hi 
Level passenger cars are two types, coaches and a diner-lounge. The bottoms are 
metal with Fleischmann and made in West Germany embossed on them. Factory 
lettered ( look like stick on type decals) for the Santa Fe. The cars are 
lighted. The trucks have plastic side frames and Talgo mounted 
couplers..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             A nice looking 
German made American style passenger set.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10824
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 6/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H.  A nice set.  I have always liked these cars since I saw them in the ads back when they were sold new.  Fleischmann really went all out on the details, they look great. I keep an eye out for a bargain at the shows, can't afford what they often sell for on eBay.  Years ago, an uncle had the ATSF locomotives, found in a general garage sale, but he wanted to sell them, and since I was not actively collecting, I found a willing buyer for them and he did well.  He eventually gave me his small old HO accumulation for safekeeping, which I later inherited; some interesting pieces, but no El Capitan cars. LOL!  Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Since it is pretty quiet on the site I have sent pictures of a set that I like. Normally I don't collect Fleischmann HO but I really like these plastic American style Hi Level passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Polk's Blue Book of Hobbies 1959 edition shows this set. They are listed at the top of Page 26. That page has them listed (misprint) as Flesichmann. Every other page has Fleischmann. I don't know how early before this they were produced. The set shows a third coach that I don't have plus my "set" actually didn't come as one. (Notice the coupler difference on the cars and the engines). The set sold for $ 49.95.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The engines, FA ? Alco style, are all metal with real screen in them. Very nice detail and heavy. No. 1341 is powered and No. 1342 is a dummy. They are painted and lettered (factory) in the Santa Fe War Bonnet scheme.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The Hi Level passenger cars are two types, coaches and a diner-lounge. The bottoms are metal with Fleischmann and made in West Germany embossed on them. Factory lettered ( look like stick on type decals) for the Santa Fe. The cars are lighted. The trucks have plastic side frames and Talgo mounted couplers..
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > A nice looking German made American style passenger set.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10825
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 6/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H and Jay:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for the pix of the Fleischmann ATSF Hi-level cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
FYI, I have 15 of those cars. They were (according to Flieschmann) last
                                                                                                                                                                                      
produced in 1958. I found this out when I visited the Fleischmann plant
                                                                                                                                                                                      
in Germany during my Army years.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The cars that I have exhibited some of the aging decal problems which are
                                                                                                                                                                                      
clearly visible on your cars. Since I run my cars in a simulated "El-Capitan",
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I repainted most of the cars, and then redecalled them with Micro-Scale 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
ATSF decal sets. My cars also connect via semi-permanet draw bars,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
because I did not like the original Fleischman couplers. If there is further
                                                                                                                                                                                      
interest, I can send photos (assuming I can get wife to crank up the digital
                                                                                                                                                                                      
camera for me).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have a set of Genises F units (ABBA) that pulls them. The front and rear
                                                                                                                                                                                      
cars have a Kadee #5 coupler attached, and I can include head end cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
as well (have the baggage car transition piece (the bonnet) which was offered
                                                                                                                                                                                      
a few years ago by Train Station Products (not yet installed on the car though).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for the photos. These cars are indeed rare. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Stay well,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dave F
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Greenville, SC
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      **************
                                                                                                                                                                                      We found the real ‘Hotel California’ and the ‘Seinfeld’ diner. What will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com. (http://www.whereitsat.com/#/music/all-spots/355/47.796964/-66.374711/2/Youve-Found-Where-Its-At?ncid=emlcntnew00000007)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10826
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 6/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      What years did the prototype run these?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            Since it is pretty quiet on the site I have sent pictures of a set that I like. Normally I don't collect Fleischmann HO but I really like these plastic American style Hi Level passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Polk's Blue Book of Hobbies  1959  edition shows this set. They are listed at the top of Page 26. That page has them listed (misprint) as Flesichmann. Every other page has Fleischmann. I don't know how early before this they were produced. The set shows a third coach that I don't have plus my "set" actually didn't come as one. (Notice the coupler difference on the cars and the engines).  The set sold for $ 49.95.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        The engines, FA ?  Alco style, are all metal with real screen in them. Very nice detail and heavy. No. 1341 is powered and No. 1342 is a dummy. They are painted and lettered (factory) in the Santa Fe War Bonnet scheme.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        The Hi Level passenger cars are two types, coaches and a diner-lounge. The bottoms are metal with Fleischmann and made in West Germany embossed on them. Factory lettered ( look like stick on type decals) for the Santa Fe. The cars are lighted. The trucks have plastic side frames and Talgo mounted couplers..
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        A nice looking German made American style passenger set.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                                       Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10827
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                 Someone into 
prototype will have to answer that. I only know HO and the name El Captain 
is how this set was sold. Sorry.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  nvrr49 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 2:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fleischmann Hi 
  Level El Captain passenger set
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      What years did the prototype run these?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      Kansas City, 
  MO

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Since it is pretty quiet on the site I have sent pictures of a set 
  that I like. Normally I don't collect Fleischmann HO but I really like these 
  plastic American style Hi Level passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Polk's Blue 
  Book of Hobbies 1959 edition shows this set. They are listed at the top of 
  Page 26. That page has them listed (misprint) as Flesichmann. Every other page 
  has Fleischmann. I don't know how early before this they were produced. The 
  set shows a third coach that I don't have plus my "set" actually didn't come 
  as one. (Notice the coupler difference on the cars and the engines). The set 
  sold for $ 49.95.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The engines, FA ? Alco style, are all metal 
  with real screen in them. Very nice detail and heavy. No. 1341 is powered and 
  No. 1342 is a dummy. They are painted and lettered (factory) in the Santa Fe 
  War Bonnet scheme.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The Hi Level passenger cars are two types, 
  coaches and a diner-lounge. The bottoms are metal with Fleischmann and made in 
  West Germany embossed on them. Factory lettered ( look like stick on type 
  decals) for the Santa Fe. The cars are lighted. The trucks have plastic side 
  frames and Talgo mounted couplers..
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > A nice looking German 
  made American style passenger set.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim 
  H.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10828
						From: trainliker
						Date: 6/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Some are still running now.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
They started in about 1955 on the Santa Fe right up until Amtrak.  More were built in the sixties.  It looks like the Fleischmann cars came almost immediately after.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Amtrak still uses some of the cars.  I see lounge cars on the Coast Starlight.  When you look at a high level Amtrak train and you see a car that isn't quite as tall as the newer "Superliner" cars, its an old El capitan car.  Being in service for over 50 years is pretty good.  Either for the prototype, or the model.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Wikipedia has more info and a more complete timeline:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Capitan_(passenger_train)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> What years did the prototype run these?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >            Since it is pretty quiet on the site I have sent pictures of a set that I like. Normally I don't collect Fleischmann HO but I really like these plastic American style Hi Level passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >       Polk's Blue Book of Hobbies  1959  edition shows this set. They are listed at the top of Page 26. That page has them listed (misprint) as Flesichmann. Every other page has Fleischmann. I don't know how early before this they were produced. The set shows a third coach that I don't have plus my "set" actually didn't come as one. (Notice the coupler difference on the cars and the engines).  The set sold for $ 49.95.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >        The engines, FA ?  Alco style, are all metal with real screen in them. Very nice detail and heavy. No. 1341 is powered and No. 1342 is a dummy. They are painted and lettered (factory) in the Santa Fe War Bonnet scheme.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >        The Hi Level passenger cars are two types, coaches and a diner-lounge. The bottoms are metal with Fleischmann and made in West Germany embossed on them. Factory lettered ( look like stick on type decals) for the Santa Fe. The cars are lighted. The trucks have plastic side frames and Talgo mounted couplers..
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >        A nice looking German made American style passenger set.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >                                                                                                       Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10829
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 6/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The initial El Capitan trainsets  were introduced in Summer 1956, there 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
were several reorders. Cars were taken over by Amtrak, and the Lounges 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
were still in service not long ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10830
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 6/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Gerold:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks. I think we were talking about the HO models introduced by the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Fleischmann folks in Germany back in the later 50s. I acquired several
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sets (actually, individual cars) -- enough to make two HO trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
FYI, I rod the real ATSF cars both in the 50s - and again in the early 70s
                                                                                                                                                                                      
when Amtrash was running them between LAUPT and CUS. In those days,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
they were still complete ATSF consists, albeit with Amtrak paint, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
cars were still very nice inside, and they rode well. The ATSF track, esp
                                                                                                                                                                                      
around Barstow, CA was as bumpy as a washboard though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
These cars were in use before the first SuperLiners arrived. Rode those too
                                                                                                                                                                                      
later. I was in the Army at Fort Ord,  CA and traveled a lot, and my preferences
                                                                                                                                                                                      
were always by train.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In later years, the Hi-level fleets were broken up and assigned one-car-
                                                                                                                                                                                      
per-train helter-skelter as "crew dorm" sleeper coaches (makes you wonder
                                                                                                                                                                                      
whatever happened to "real" crew dorm cars that the private RRs used before
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Amtrak).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dave F


                                                                                                                                                                                      **************
                                                                                                                                                                                      We found the real ‘Hotel California’ and the ‘Seinfeld’ diner. What will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com. (http://www.whereitsat.com/#/music/all-spots/355/47.796964/-66.374711/2/Youve-Found-Where-Its-At?ncid=emlcntnew00000007)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10831
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 6/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Polk's Blue Book of Hobbies  1959  edition shows this set. They 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> are listed at the top of Page 26. That page has them listed (misprint) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> as Flesichmann. Every other page has Fleischmann. I don't know how 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> early before this they were produced. The set shows a third coach 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that I don't have plus my "set" actually didn't come as one. (Notice 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the coupler difference on the cars and the engines).  The set sold for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> $ 49.95.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        The engines, FA ?  Alco style, are all metal with real screen 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> in them. Very nice detail and heavy. No. 1341 is powered and No. 1342 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> is a dummy. They are painted and lettered (factory) in the Santa Fe 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> War Bonnet scheme.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        The Hi Level passenger cars are two types, coaches and a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> diner-lounge. The bottoms are metal with Fleischmann and made in West 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Germany embossed on them. Factory lettered ( look like stick on type 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> decals) for the Santa Fe. The cars are lighted. The trucks have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> plastic side frames and Talgo mounted couplers..
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        A nice looking German made American style passenger set.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      The FAs were available in Santa Fe and Union Pacific livery,  A units 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
only - like many other early Fleischmann they are oversize. Have tried 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to put a Model Power B-unit between them, looks a little forlorn.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I agree the cars were superb models for their time - in fact they may 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
have started my fascination with US trains First saw them as a toddler 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
on an display layout at an local amusement park in the early sixties. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Took me ten years until I was able to get some used cars ... and another 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
thirty to find out that the window sash of the lounges has NO rivet 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
detail on the prototype! Wonder what the Fleischmann designers thought 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
when they added this?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The set you have seems to be a deluxe version - most of those I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
seen to date have transparent window glazing, and no lighting. Of corse 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
those sold in Europe had the awkward Fleischmann hook coupler ( similar 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to a Baker or Kupeeze ) which was a real liability - it didnt mate with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
anything else, was hard to convert to any other system as the attachment 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
points were much higher than usual, and even when running solid 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Fleischmann trains it was almost impossible to uncouple cars without a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
uncoupling ramp. I purchased some Fleischmann conversion couplers for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the Roco/ Maerklin system, but gave up as they worked so bad and then 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
only converted the end cars and used stock couplers between the cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10832
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 6/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck and group:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The German HO Fleischmann cars were made around 1957 or so. That's when
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I got my first group, at a German Hobby Shop in Bitburg, Germany (near
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Bitburg Air Base). There were 3 of them, and they cost DM 1.75, or about
                                                                                                                                                                                      
35  or 40 cents each in those days! (when you considered that the Deutsch Mark
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to US $ exchange rate was DM 4.20 in FAVOR of the US dollar, which was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
very strong back then). A second set of 4 cars was on a display layout in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the store window with the two aforementioned FA-1s pulling. A similar US-style
                                                                                                                                                                                      
train, painted/lettered for the UP of single level German prototype passenger cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
in US (UP paint) was also running with 5 cars and 2 UP-painted FAs.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The local hobby house catered heavily to US military, hence the US prototypes
                                                                                                                                                                                      
for sale and on the operating display layouts in the store.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
When the store layouts' train displays were changed out for freight trains later
                                                                                                                                                                                      
(they changed them about every 2 weeks or so), I was able to acquire these
                                                                                                                                                                                      
cars as well, for a total of 7. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Later, in the 60s, while back in Germany, I found several more individual cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
at some hobby shops in Germany that were left over stock, since by then, these
                                                                                                                                                                                      
cars has been discontinued. Today, I have a total of about 16, and still
                                                                                                                                                                                      
run them. Some have been modified, since old parts broke or wore out, but I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
wanted to keep these going for as long as possible, since they are not really
                                                                                                                                                                                      
easily obtainable here in the US. One car was picked up used at a train show
                                                                                                                                                                                      
for $1 but had no trucks. I substituted trucks from an old Tyco shorty passenger
                                                                                                                                                                                      
coach, since these looked pretty close to the originals. Today, you can hardly
                                                                                                                                                                                      
tell the difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The cars came in two models: coach and lounge. I have both.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have long since taken out the flimsy interior lighting and the translucent
                                                                                                                                                                                      
window material, and replaced the window material with much better stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I don't use or need interior lights as my trains run during the "day" time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Fleischmann cars are not scale length, but more like 72 footers (shorty cars).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
They run very well with similar-sized cars from Athearn and Model Power which
                                                                                                                                                                                      
offered the stainless steel Budd cars (in shorty form).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
They look REALLY short when compared to either the later ConCor or Walthers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
SuperLiner cars. The Fleischmann cars are much less problematic than their
                                                                                                                                                                                      
American counterparts, and are impressive in long trains. I have had these
                                                                                                                                                                                      
for -- well, since the mid-50s for the most part now, and they are still running
                                                                                                                                                                                      
very well on my version of the "El Cap".....
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It is interesting to note that these cars came with the original deep flange wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sets. One of the reasons why they track so well. I use Code 100 rail, so have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
never had a derailment problem with these cars, even when backing them up.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
By contrast, American stock with the RP-25 "no flange" tend to derail at every
                                                                                                                                                                                      
opportunity when doing a back up move, even with body mounted couplers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Progress!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dave F
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  


                                                                                                                                                                                      **************
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10833
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 6/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chuck K. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I was not suprised to read that some of the original prototype high-level El Capitan cars were still in operation after I did some searching and found that they were manufactured by the Budd Company, the experts in building railroad cars using all stainless steel construction.  Here is a nicely done web page that illustrates the different prototype cars and explains each:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.banksofthesusquehanna.com/MM56ElCap.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In fact, the New York City Transit Authority will be retiring the only all stainless steel Budd R-32 class of subway cars built in 1965-1966  early next year, at 45+ years of age, having outlasted three newer classes of stainless steel clad, regular steel cars with only one equipment rebuild each.  It is the opinion of many that the all stainless R-32's bodies could have been re-equipped again.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I was also not surprised that the Fleischmann models are well built to survive 50 years of model operations, either.  Like that somewhat annoying TV huckster the "Shamwell" guy says in his commercial, " the Germans build good stuff!" :o)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainliker" <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Some are still running now.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > They started in about 1955 on the Santa Fe right up until Amtrak. More were built in the sixties. It looks like the Fleischmann cars came almost immediately after.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Amtrak still uses some of the cars. I see lounge cars on the Coast Starlight. When you look at a high level Amtrak train and you see a car that isn't quite as tall as the newer "Superliner" cars, its an old El capitan car. Being in service for over 50 years is pretty good. Either for the prototype, or the model.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Wikipedia has more info and a more complete timeline:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Capitan_(passenger_train)
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49" nvrr49@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > What years did the prototype run these?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Since it is pretty quiet on the site I have sent pictures of a set that I like. Normally I don't collect Fleischmann HO but I really like these plastic American style Hi Level passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Polk's Blue Book of Hobbies 1959 edition shows this set. They are listed at the top of Page 26. That page has them listed (misprint) as Flesichmann. Every other page has Fleischmann. I don't know how early before this they were produced. The set shows a third coach that I don't have plus my "set" actually didn't come as one. (Notice the coupler difference on the cars and the engines). The set sold for $ 49.95.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > The engines, FA ? Alco style, are all metal with real screen in them. Very nice detail and heavy. No. 1341 is powered and No. 1342 is a dummy. They are painted and lettered (factory) in the Santa Fe War Bonnet scheme.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > The Hi Level passenger cars are two types, coaches and a diner-lounge. The bottoms are metal with Fleischmann and made in West Germany embossed on them. Factory lettered ( look like stick on type decals) for the Santa Fe. The cars are lighted. The trucks have plastic side frames and Talgo mounted couplers..
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > A nice looking German made American style passenger set.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10834
						From: frank
						Date: 6/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Olympic Express GP9  ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny is right Athearn did buy Globe before Athearn was making anything plastic. Either that or Athearn was in the process of just starting to mold plactic. Globe was making the F7, Gp7 and passenger cars before the sale.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 As to the Olympic Express GP7. The drive is a copy of what Globe made. When Athearn got it, they released it as a GP9. The GP9 phase 1 was identical in appearance to the GP7. The Globe GP had the horns on the sides before and after the cab. The first Athearn releases used this body. Then Athearn redid the body with horns on the roof of the short hood. The Olympic Express GP has the original body with the horns on the sides. The drive was made in Japan with parts identical to the Globe Athearn early geared drive. The only difference was the extra metal Olympic cast into the frame. I'll put some photos of it in a album. Mine was Southern Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10835
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 6/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I believe the Santa Fe started using the Hi-Level cars in the fifties--on 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the "San Francisco Chief", and some cars are still running on Amtrak as the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
"Pacific Parlour Cars" on the "Coast Starlight".  Note carefully--they are a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
bit lower than the Superliners.    gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 11:00 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> What years did the prototype run these?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>            Since it is pretty quiet on the site I have sent pictures of a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> set that I like. Normally I don't collect Fleischmann HO but I really 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> like these plastic American style Hi Level passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>       Polk's Blue Book of Hobbies  1959  edition shows this set. They are 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> listed at the top of Page 26. That page has them listed (misprint) as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Flesichmann. Every other page has Fleischmann. I don't know how early 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> before this they were produced. The set shows a third coach that I don't 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> have plus my "set" actually didn't come as one. (Notice the coupler 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> difference on the cars and the engines).  The set sold for $ 49.95.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>        The engines, FA ?  Alco style, are all metal with real screen in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> them. Very nice detail and heavy. No. 1341 is powered and No. 1342 is a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> dummy. They are painted and lettered (factory) in the Santa Fe War Bonnet 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> scheme.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>        The Hi Level passenger cars are two types, coaches and a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> diner-lounge. The bottoms are metal with Fleischmann and made in West 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Germany embossed on them. Factory lettered ( look like stick on type 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> decals) for the Santa Fe. The cars are lighted. The trucks have plastic 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> side frames and Talgo mounted couplers..
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>        A nice looking German made American style passenger set.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10836
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Carnation Globe/Athearn Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
There has been a lot of discussion about Globe/Athearn products like the Olympic 
Express Geep. I thought these pictures might be interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             I'm wondering 
how many people remember this promotion by Carnation milk. It featured a 
complete set of Globe/Athearn passenger cars and dummy engines. They were the 
Globe passenger cars that were made of the 5 basic parts (2 sides,2 ends and a 
roof). There were trucks with each item also that you assembled. You could 
buy  Diesel "A"  for $.50, Diesel "B" for $.50, Coach "C" for $.50, 
Dome car "D" for $.75, Observation "E" for $.75 and a Baggage-Mail "F" for 
$.50. Each item had an individual assembly sheet included. For each item ordered 
you had to "enclose one yellow panel from Carnation Instant Chocolate Flavored 
Drink".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             I have a 
complete set, still mint in boxes, that I bought at a train show for $ 3.00. I 
also have a passenger car set minus the engines, assembled,  that I 
originally bought as I drove my Mother crazy getting the Carnation drink.. They 
were the first HO passenger cars I ever have. I have repainted them three 
different times. First in Santa Fe (Poorly as I originally had the engines that 
are now gone) then Pennsy and then in a black/white Penn Central scheme with 
white PC's and Penn Central lettering that I ran on my first 
layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Thought these pictures 
might jar some recollections. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10837
						From: Russ Shiel
						Date: 6/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: 1951 Varney parts catalogue
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      H'lo All...a quick query for the Varney catalogophiles...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I picked up the 1951 '1,001 genuine HO loco and car parts by Varney' catalogue at auction recently, and on checking HO-Seeker, noted that Larry doesn't have it, so set about scanning it for the Varney folder.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
A little disappointed when I got to p. 30/31...the tender photo at the bottom of p. 31 has been clipped, taking with it the reverse section (exploded diagram and probably a descriptive paragraph on the V-3 motor).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If anyone has this catalogue, and would be prepared to scan the two pages for me (or HO-Seeker) or post hard copies, for which I am happy to reimburse costs, please contact me off the list - russell.shiel(at)adelaide.edu.au.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks in anticipation!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Chrs, Russ
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      Need a Holiday? Win a $10,000 Holiday of your choice. Enter now.http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTJxN2x2ZmNpBF9zAzIwMjM2MTY2MTMEdG1fZG1lY2gDVGV4dCBMaW5rBHRtX2xuawNVMTEwMzk3NwR0bV9uZXQDWWFob28hBHRtX3BvcwN0YWdsaW5lBHRtX3BwdHkDYXVueg--/SIG=14600t3ni/**http%3A//au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline/creativeholidays/*http%3A//au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/%3Fp1=other%26p2=au%26p3=mailtagline
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10838
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 6/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Carnation Globe/Athearn Passenger Cars [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I also have a complete never assembled Carnation set plus some extra cars that I bought on ebay several years ago.  I have never seen them for sale on ebay again.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Fri, 6/5/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Carnation Globe/Athearn Passenger Cars [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Friday, June 5, 2009, 6:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      



[Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               There has been a lot of discussion about Globe/Athearn products like the Olympic Express Geep. I thought these pictures might be interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             I'm wondering how many people remember this promotion by Carnation milk. It featured a complete set of Globe/Athearn passenger cars and dummy engines. They were the Globe passenger cars that were made of the 5 basic parts (2 sides,2 ends and a roof). There were trucks with each item also that you assembled. You could buy  Diesel "A"  for $.50, Diesel "B" for $.50, Coach "C" for $.50, Dome car "D" for $.75, Observation "E" for $.75 and a Baggage-Mail "F" for $.50. Each item had an individual assembly sheet included. For each item ordered you had to "enclose one yellow panel from Carnation Instant Chocolate Flavored Drink".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             I have a complete set, still mint in boxes, that I bought at a train show for $ 3.00. I also have a passenger car set minus the engines, assembled,  that I originally bought as I drove my Mother crazy getting the Carnation drink.. They were the first HO passenger cars I ever have. I have repainted them three different times. First in Santa Fe (Poorly as I originally had the engines that are now gone) then Pennsy and then in a black/white Penn Central scheme with white PC's and Penn Central lettering that I ran on my first layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Thought these pictures might jar some recollections. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachment(s) from jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      3 of 3 Photo(s) 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10839
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 6/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: ebay item #110397570625
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      just an FYI.  I know there were some recent posts on this switch engine and in case you are interested.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10840
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 6/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay item #110397570625
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Kent.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      That auction number is for a:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      New Aquarium Fish Tank Pump Oxygen Bio-Filter 300L/H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      As the number was directly copied from your email and the the title from the auction listing.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: nvrr49 <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2009 10:46:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] ebay item #110397570625

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      just an FYI. I know there were some recent posts on this switch engine and in case you are interested.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      Kansas City, MO


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10841
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 6/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: try 110397570626  was Re: ebay item #110397570625
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry, I screwed up again...the correct item is 110397570626
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Kent.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> That auction number is for a:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> New Aquarium Fish Tank Pump Oxygen Bio-Filter 300L/H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> As the number was directly copied from your email and the the title from the auction listing.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: nvrr49 <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2009 10:46:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] ebay item #110397570625
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> just an FYI. I know there were some recent posts on this switch engine and in case you are interested.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10842
						From: Chris B
						Date: 6/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay item #110397570625
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean, maybe it's a lionel part for one of those silly aquarium cars?
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2009 11:00:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay item #110397570625

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Kent.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      That auction number is for a:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      New Aquarium Fish Tank Pump Oxygen Bio-Filter 300L/H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      As the number was directly copied from your email and the the title from the auction listing.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: nvrr49 <nvrr49@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2009 10:46:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] ebay item #110397570625

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      just an FYI. I know there were some recent posts on this switch engine and in case you are interested.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      Kansas City, MO



                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10843
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 6/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay item #110397570625
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      That auction number takes me to an aquarium pump
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Steve W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 10:46 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] ebay item #110397570625
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> just an FYI.  I know there were some recent posts on this switch engine 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and in case you are interested.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10844
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Ebay Number
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        That Ebay auction number   
110397570626   looks like parts for a Penn Line D-1 
Whitcomb.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10845
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ebay Number
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
My correction. Body looks D-1. Other parts D-2. The motor with pulley is 
probably Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 12:09 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Ebay Number
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        That Ebay auction number   
  110397570626   looks like parts for a Penn Line D-1 
  Whitcomb.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10846
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ebay Number
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                            Well another 
correction. Shows you shouldn't make snap judgments using poor pictures. It is a 
Penn Line Whitcomb but the body is also the D-2 type. A quick look showed extra 
detail on the hood (probably added) but the raised part on the cab roof is a 
Penn Line D-2 style detail that is not on the D-1. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             I better go 
back and finish cutting the grass instead of just taking a quick look during a 
break.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 12:16 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Ebay Number
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  My correction. Body looks D-1. Other parts D-2. The motor with pulley is 
  probably Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 12:09 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Ebay Number
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        That Ebay auction number   
    110397570626   looks like parts for a Penn Line D-1 
    Whitcomb.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10847
						From: James E Crowell, BSc, MEd
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      While on vacation in New Zealand in 1985, I found four cars in a hobby shop there.  At the time, I didn't know that they were shorter than they should be, and since it is only now that I am able to build a layout in our new home (Los Angeles to Indianapolis move), they have been boxed since then.  If I remember correctly, they looked pretty new, although did not exhibit the 'brightness' I have come to expect with ATSF passenger equipment.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
New Zealand has (had) a wonderful rail system, quiet, clean and with an interior that reminded me of first class accomodations on a jet.  In Australia, we rode the famous 'zig-zag' railroad, that opened up the interior of Australia to the coastal cities, since it had to go up and over the mountains there (evidently, with no easily accessible mountain passes?).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Off-topic question: Does anyone know how to insert photographs into an Excel data listing?  I am starting to keep a listing of what I have, especially since the new stuff costs WAY more than my older Athearn, although if you think about it, $25 in 1975 is about $60 today. OUCH!  Good thing I wasn't married then.  My wonderful wife nowadays pushes me into the hobby store, and tags along to help me find certain items she knows I'm interested in.  Got to love her.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10848
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      I just went and clicked the “insert”
at the top of the Excel page.  Clicked the “picture”, then “From
file”, click the picture you want from your file.  If you click on the
photo you can move it around.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of James E Crowell, BSc, MEd
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 8:48
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re:
Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      While on vacation in
 New Zealand in 1985, I found four
cars in a hobby shop there. At the time, I didn't know that they were shorter
than they should be, and since it is only now that I am able to build a layout
in our new home (Los Angeles to Indianapolis move), they have been boxed since
then. If I remember correctly, they looked pretty new, although did not exhibit
the 'brightness' I have come to expect with ATSF passenger equipment.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 New Zealand 
has (had) a wonderful rail system, quiet, clean and with an interior that
reminded me of first class accomodations on a jet. In
 Australia , we rode the famous 'zig-zag'
railroad, that opened up the interior of
 Australia to the coastal cities,
since it had to go up and over the mountains there (evidently, with no easily
accessible mountain passes?).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Off-topic question: Does anyone know how to insert photographs into an Excel
data listing? I am starting to keep a listing of what I have, especially since
the new stuff costs WAY more than my older Athearn, although if you think about
it, $25 in 1975 is about $60 today. OUCH! Good thing I wasn't married then. My
wonderful wife nowadays pushes me into the hobby store, and tags along to help
me find certain items she knows I'm interested in. Got to love her.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10849
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones, 1st vs 2nd run: headlight change?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Dennis T. and All:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I believe I found the answer to the questions you asked several weeks ago about the headlight and other possible changes on the various runs of the Varney Casey Jones, while researching the old magazines on another, completely unrealted topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Varney ad on the back cover of the August 1959 Model Railroader heralds the "Revolutionary, the all new Casey Jones" kit including the "Incredible low price, now only 14.95."  And the Casey Jones shown is without the visor.  A few months later, the ad on the back cover again features the new "screwdriver series" kit, and at the top is another photo, this one with silver smokebox and visor-less headlight.  The photo below, credited to the old Model Trains magazine, seems to show the original kit with visor. But all the other ads of that time, show the visor-less Casey Jones, contrasted with Old Lady sold at the same time, with visor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
And additional changes?  The ad copy begins with "The first question many model railroaders have asked me about this new Varney kit is whether the engine is the same as the Casey Jones Ten-wheeler previously in the Varney line. Yes, the engine is essentially the same, for the boiler is still all metal and assembly is similar."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
But the ad further states, "The old kit had a few minor flaws, such as the main rods striking other parts, and these flaws have been corrected" but it does not say how.  Another paragraph says, in part, "Perhaps the most important new features in the kit are the ready to use paint job and the valve linkage..."   and lower continues, "...the valve gear is assembled..."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So as you thought, Varney clearly had an early version (with visor) and a later version without visor, but including improved valve gear and rod assembly. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Amazing what we can come across when we are not looking for it!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Since joining this List, I've managed to purchase a 1st run and a 2nd 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> run Varney Casey Jones locomotive.  Thank you Jim and List.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> So I'm back asking more Casey Jones questions:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> In reviewing photos of Jim's collection and the physical models now 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> in front of me, I see the old, "fully hooded," headlight of the first 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> run has changed in the second run.  Second run seems to have had the, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> "hood," bobbed off almost entirely.  On the other hand, I got a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> chance to look at a NOS Bowser, unbuilt, Casey Jones kit, and there 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> was the fully hooded headlight.   ??????????   Or did a lot of folks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> take a file to the headlight and that's what I'm noticing??  I'm 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> thinking the boiler/cab casting would have remained the same 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> throughout production life with Varney and Bowser.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thoughts?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Also, anyone know when blind center drivers were used, (or not used), 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> on these locomotives?  I seem to have ended up with one of each, the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> example I have with the blind driver is on a 1st run version.  But 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I've now seen a second, 1st run version, with all flanged drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10850
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Varney Casey Jones, 1st vs 2nd run: headlight change?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      WJ and All:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Very interesting and timely.  All you report makes sense.  I had been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
thinking, too, that the visor-less headlight might also reflect a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
slight production shortcut as well as making it easier to install a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
headlight bulb.  I would suppose by that time customers had begun to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
want working headlights in locomotives.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Interesting that the Old Lady may have retained the visor.  Or, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Varney poured the new castings into the Casey Jones 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
productions/advertising while using up old castings in the Old Lady kits, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Having said all this, I just walked over to my recently acquired, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Bowser, new, un-built Casey Jones kit and, just as I remembered, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
there is the boiler casting...WITH the headlight visor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So did Bowser go backward with the castings?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Questions never end do they?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 06:58 AM 6/7/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >Hi Dennis T. and All:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I believe I found the answer to the questions you asked several 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>weeks ago about the headlight and other possible changes on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>various runs of the Varney Casey Jones, while researching the old 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>magazines on another, completely unrealted topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>The Varney ad on the back cover of the August 1959 Model Railroader 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>heralds the "Revolutionary, the all new Casey Jones" kit including 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>the "Incredible low price, now only 14.95."  And the Casey Jones 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>shown is without the visor.  A few months later, the ad on the back 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>cover again features the new "screwdriver series" kit, and at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>top is another photo, this one with silver smokebox and visor-less 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>headlight.  The photo below, credited to the old Model Trains 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>magazine, seems to show the original kit with visor. But all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>other ads of that time, show the visor-less Casey Jones, contrasted 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>with Old Lady sold at the same time, with visor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>And additional changes?  The ad copy begins with "The first question 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>many model railroaders have asked me about this new Varney kit is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>whether the engine is the same as the Casey Jones Ten-wheeler 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>previously in the Varney line. Yes, the engine is essentially the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>same, for the boiler is still all metal and assembly is similar."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>But the ad further states, "The old kit had a few minor flaws, such 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>as the main rods striking other parts, and these flaws have been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>corrected" but it does not say how.  Another paragraph says, in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>part, "Perhaps the most important new features in the kit are the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>ready to use paint job and the valve linkage..."   and lower 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>continues, "...the valve gear is assembled..."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>So as you thought, Varney clearly had an early version (with visor) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>and a later version without visor, but including improved valve gear 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>and rod assembly.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Amazing what we can come across when we are not looking for it!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Since joining this List, I've managed to purchase a 1st run and a 2nd
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > run Varney Casey Jones locomotive.  Thank you Jim and List.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > So I'm back asking more Casey Jones questions:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > In reviewing photos of Jim's collection and the physical models now
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > in front of me, I see the old, "fully hooded," headlight of the first
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > run has changed in the second run.  Second run seems to have had the,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > "hood," bobbed off almost entirely.  On the other hand, I got a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > chance to look at a NOS Bowser, unbuilt, Casey Jones kit, and there
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > was the fully hooded headlight.   ??????????   Or did a lot of folks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > take a file to the headlight and that's what I'm noticing??  I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > thinking the boiler/cab casting would have remained the same
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > throughout production life with Varney and Bowser.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Thoughts?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Also, anyone know when blind center drivers were used, (or not used),
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > on these locomotives?  I seem to have ended up with one of each, the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > example I have with the blind driver is on a 1st run version.  But
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I've now seen a second, 1st run version, with all flanged drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.54/2159 - Release Date: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>06/06/09 18:04:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10851
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Our adult sons were in a bad auto accident recently, so I've been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
buried in things non-railroad.  (They will be OK).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I recently bought on line an old Mantua Mike;  all cast including 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
tender.  Because of the accident, (above), I gave it only a quick 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
look when it arrived.  Now it is too late to address the fact that I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
just noticed that, although it was advertised as having a Pitman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
motor, there is actually NO motor in the darned thing.  This is the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike version with the frame mounted worm gear/case and would have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
used an independently mounted motor with flexible tubing connection.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So I'm casually shopping for a motor.  Can anyone tell me how to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
distinguish what motor is the right one considering I have never seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
one in person?  (I have a couple extras of the later Mantua motors 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
with worm gear installed, so I know what they look like)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Or, would a later motor work if the worm gear is removed and proper 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
tubing installed?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have seen comments here about what tubing to use, so I would have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to review that and figure out where to get tubing as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
On the plus side, this Mike is nice and appears to have never been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
painted.  Once running, I think I'll just leave it in it's cast metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10852
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim E.C.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As a scale modeler, I always objected to shortened cars as soon as I found out the difference, (although there were some shorter prototypes).  However as a model railroader and particularly a vintage operator, I found that a matched consist of foreshortened cars appears as a more prototypical train winding around most of the curves we have on our layouts, while the scale legnth cars look more toylike!  A paradox of sorts.  So I am able to appreciate both sizes of cars for what they are, especially if the shorties spare none of the other important features and detailing like the well done Fleischmann Hi Level El Capitan cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "James E Crowell, BSc, MEd" <kool57@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> While on vacation in New Zealand in 1985, I found four cars in a hobby shop there.  At the time, I didn't know that they were shorter than they should be, and since it is only now that I am able to build a layout in our new home (Los Angeles to Indianapolis move), they have been boxed since then.  If I remember correctly, they looked pretty new, although did not exhibit the 'brightness' I have come to expect with ATSF passenger equipment.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> New Zealand has (had) a wonderful rail system, quiet, clean and with an interior that reminded me of first class accomodations on a jet.  In Australia, we rode the famous 'zig-zag' railroad, that opened up the interior of Australia to the coastal cities, since it had to go up and over the mountains there (evidently, with no easily accessible mountain passes?).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Off-topic question: Does anyone know how to insert photographs into an Excel data listing?  I am starting to keep a listing of what I have, especially since the new stuff costs WAY more than my older Athearn, although if you think about it, $25 in 1975 is about $60 today. OUCH!  Good thing I wasn't married then.  My wonderful wife nowadays pushes me into the hobby store, and tags along to help me find certain items she knows I'm interested in.  Got to love her.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10853
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      As I remember them, they had the Pittman DC-70 motor or a clone.  I can look 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and see if I have one--gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Dennis Thompson" <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 7:19 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Our adult sons were in a bad auto accident recently, so I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> buried in things non-railroad.  (They will be OK).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I recently bought on line an old Mantua Mike;  all cast including
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> tender.  Because of the accident, (above), I gave it only a quick
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> look when it arrived.  Now it is too late to address the fact that I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> just noticed that, although it was advertised as having a Pitman
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> motor, there is actually NO motor in the darned thing.  This is the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike version with the frame mounted worm gear/case and would have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> used an independently mounted motor with flexible tubing connection.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> So I'm casually shopping for a motor.  Can anyone tell me how to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> distinguish what motor is the right one considering I have never seen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> one in person?  (I have a couple extras of the later Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> with worm gear installed, so I know what they look like)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Or, would a later motor work if the worm gear is removed and proper
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> tubing installed?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have seen comments here about what tubing to use, so I would have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to review that and figure out where to get tubing as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On the plus side, this Mike is nice and appears to have never been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> painted.  Once running, I think I'll just leave it in it's cast metal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.54/2159 - Release Date: 06/06/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
18:04:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10854
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      If you want to get it running--get the NWSL "Athearn Conversion  Kit"  which 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
is a 20 x 32 mm can motor with a flywheel--mount it on a 1/16" thick piece 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of K&S brass drilled and tapped 4-40 to fit.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Dennis Thompson" <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 7:19 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Our adult sons were in a bad auto accident recently, so I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> buried in things non-railroad.  (They will be OK).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I recently bought on line an old Mantua Mike;  all cast including
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> tender.  Because of the accident, (above), I gave it only a quick
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> look when it arrived.  Now it is too late to address the fact that I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> just noticed that, although it was advertised as having a Pitman
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> motor, there is actually NO motor in the darned thing.  This is the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike version with the frame mounted worm gear/case and would have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> used an independently mounted motor with flexible tubing connection.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> So I'm casually shopping for a motor.  Can anyone tell me how to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> distinguish what motor is the right one considering I have never seen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> one in person?  (I have a couple extras of the later Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> with worm gear installed, so I know what they look like)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Or, would a later motor work if the worm gear is removed and proper
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> tubing installed?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have seen comments here about what tubing to use, so I would have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to review that and figure out where to get tubing as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On the plus side, this Mike is nice and appears to have never been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> painted.  Once running, I think I'll just leave it in it's cast metal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.54/2159 - Release Date: 06/06/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
18:04:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10855
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks, Glenn:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Watching on-line or ebay, I wouldn't recognize a DC-70 motor in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
first place, from a photograph.  Having the proper, original type, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
motor would be just fine with me, however, your NWSL conversion 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sounds pretty intriguing as well.  If I do not drill/alter, etc., 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
this original unit, a can motor could make it a really nice runner 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and handled that way is probably an acceptable way to treat a worthy 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
vintage unit.  (Not that they are rare)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
For something to think about, I'll look into the NWSL kit.  If an 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
original motor shows up, I might just do that to stay original, as I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
never expect to have any amount of railroad to run it a lot 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
anyway.  I know when Oso bought out NWSL, many, many stock items 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
were, "out of stock," and Oso's goal is to slowly re-stock virtually 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
all of the catalog as well as, soon, introducing a new motor 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
concept.  I was just talking with them Friday as I have something of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
an on-going business relationship with them since the formation of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Oso.  (on the book side of things)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 07:34 AM 6/7/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >If you want to get it running--get the NWSL "Athearn Conversion  Kit"  which
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>is a 20 x 32 mm can motor with a flywheel--mount it on a 1/16" thick piece
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>of K&S brass drilled and tapped 4-40 to fit.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>From: "Dennis Thompson" <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 7:19 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Subject: [vintageHO] Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Our adult sons were in a bad auto accident recently, so I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > buried in things non-railroad.  (They will be OK).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I recently bought on line an old Mantua Mike;  all cast including
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > tender.  Because of the accident, (above), I gave it only a quick
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > look when it arrived.  Now it is too late to address the fact that I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > just noticed that, although it was advertised as having a Pitman
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > motor, there is actually NO motor in the darned thing.  This is the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Mike version with the frame mounted worm gear/case and would have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > used an independently mounted motor with flexible tubing connection.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > So I'm casually shopping for a motor.  Can anyone tell me how to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > distinguish what motor is the right one considering I have never seen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > one in person?  (I have a couple extras of the later Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > with worm gear installed, so I know what they look like)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Or, would a later motor work if the worm gear is removed and proper
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > tubing installed?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I have seen comments here about what tubing to use, so I would have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > to review that and figure out where to get tubing as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > On the plus side, this Mike is nice and appears to have never been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > painted.  Once running, I think I'll just leave it in it's cast metal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10856
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Go to   www.hoseeker.net   hit literature, 
then Mantua steam diesels. Look for Mantua 1953 version of the 2-8-2  
and one of those pages has a great diagram that shows the "enclosed drive and 
motor". Used on early Pacific too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
Hope that helps and glad your children will be fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:19 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Q: recognizing 
  certain early Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Our adult sons were in a bad auto accident recently, so I've been 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      buried in things non-railroad. (They will be OK).

                                                                                                                                                                                      I recently bought 
  on line an old Mantua Mike; all cast including 
                                                                                                                                                                                      tender. Because of the 
  accident, (above), I gave it only a quick 
                                                                                                                                                                                      look when it arrived. Now it is 
  too late to address the fact that I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      just noticed that, although it was 
  advertised as having a Pitman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      motor, there is actually NO motor in the 
  darned thing. This is the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike version with the frame mounted worm 
  gear/case and would have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      used an independently mounted motor with flexible 
  tubing connection.

                                                                                                                                                                                      So I'm casually shopping for a motor. Can anyone 
  tell me how to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      distinguish what motor is the right one considering I have 
  never seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                      one in person? (I have a couple extras of the later Mantua 
  motors 
                                                                                                                                                                                      with worm gear installed, so I know what they look like)

                                                                                                                                                                                      Or, 
  would a later motor work if the worm gear is removed and proper 
                                                                                                                                                                                      tubing 
  installed?

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have seen comments here about what tubing to use, so I 
  would have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      to review that and figure out where to get tubing as 
  well.

                                                                                                                                                                                      On the plus side, this Mike is nice and appears to have never 
  been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      painted. Once running, I think I'll just leave it in it's cast metal 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      appearance.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10857
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
If you get a good original motor, you will be very satisfied with
performance once all bugs are worked out of the mechanism.  I have two
Hobbyline Berks powered by Mantua mechanisms and they perform
flawlessly from slow speed switching to road running.  One of them was
run so much that I had to replace brass crankpins with steel crankpins
because the brass ones had grooves worn so deep vy the thin rods that
the heads were about to snap off.  No problems and even smoother
running with steel pins on the driver with the wormgear.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis Thompson wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks, Glenn:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Watching on-line or ebay, I wouldn't recognize a DC-70 motor in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
first place, from a photograph. Having the proper, original type, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
motor would be just fine with me, however, your NWSL conversion 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sounds pretty intriguing as well. If I do not drill/alter, etc., 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
this original unit, a can motor could make it a really nice runner 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and handled that way is probably an acceptable way to treat a worthy 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
vintage unit. (Not that they are rare)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
For something to think about, I'll look into the NWSL kit. If an 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
original motor shows up, I might just do that to stay original, as I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
never expect to have any amount of railroad to run it a lot 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
anyway. I know when Oso bought out NWSL, many, many stock items 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
were, "out of stock," and Oso's goal is to slowly re-stock virtually 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
all of the catalog as well as, soon, introducing a new motor 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
concept. I was just talking with them Friday as I have something of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
an on-going business relationship with them since the formation of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Oso. (on the book side of things)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 07:34 AM 6/7/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>If you want to get it running--get the NWSL "Athearn Conversion
Kit" which
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>is a 20 x 32 mm can motor with a flywheel--mount it on a 1/16"
thick piece
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>of K&S brass drilled and tapped 4-40 to fit. gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>From: "Dennis Thompson" <dbt@ritzville. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 7:19 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Subject: [vintageHO] Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Our adult sons were in a bad auto accident recently, so I've
been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > buried in things non-railroad. (They will be OK).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I recently bought on line an old Mantua Mike; all cast
including
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > tender. Because of the accident, (above), I gave it only a
quick
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > look when it arrived. Now it is too late to address the fact
that I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > just noticed that, although it was advertised as having a
Pitman
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > motor, there is actually NO motor in the darned thing. This
is the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Mike version with the frame mounted worm gear/case and would
have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > used an independently mounted motor with flexible tubing
connection.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > So I'm casually shopping for a motor. Can anyone tell me how
to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > distinguish what motor is the right one considering I have
never seen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > one in person? (I have a couple extras of the later Mantua
motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > with worm gear installed, so I know what they look like)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Or, would a later motor work if the worm gear is removed and
proper
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > tubing installed?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I have seen comments here about what tubing to use, so I
would have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > to review that and figure out where to get tubing as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > On the plus side, this Mike is nice and appears to have never
been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > painted. Once running, I think I'll just leave it in it's
cast metal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10858
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> As a scale modeler, I always objected to shortened cars as soon as I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> found out the difference, (although there were some shorter
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> prototypes).  However as a model railroader and particularly a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> vintage operator, I found that a matched consist of foreshortened
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> cars appears as a more prototypical train winding around most of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> curves we have on our layouts, while the scale legnth cars look more
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> toylike!  A paradox of sorts.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          There's always the option of using prototype cars that were short, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
such as the Sierra cars that were available from Binkley and Laconia.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You know that indestructible black box that is used on
                                                                                                                                                                                      
airplanes? Why don't they make the whole plane out of that stuff?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10859
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Curious. You mentioned New Zealand HAD a wonderful rail system.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
WHAT happened to it? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dave F
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      **************
                                                                                                                                                                                      We found the real ‘Hotel California’ and the ‘Seinfeld’ diner. What will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com. (http://www.whereitsat.com/#/music/all-spots/355/47.796964/-66.374711/2/Youve-Found-Where-Its-At?ncid=emlcntnew00000007)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10860
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Rick J:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I agree 100%. Love the full length passenger cars, but on a layout, even my
                                                                                                                                                                                      
large home layout, they aren't practical to run, esp in long trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
When I run the "shorty" cars, such as the Athearn HWs or the Fleischmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
El Capitan cars -- they usually run in 15 or 16 car trains. These trains are
                                                                                                                                                                                      
pretty long (large), and in such large consists, the "shortness" of the cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
seems to disappear, and they DO look impressive. I find that the shorty cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
also seem to track  better and are much less problematic on curves and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
when negotiation complicated switchwork........
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for the post.....
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dave F
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      **************
                                                                                                                                                                                      We found the real ‘Hotel California’ and the ‘Seinfeld’ diner. What will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com. (http://www.whereitsat.com/#/music/all-spots/355/47.796964/-66.374711/2/Youve-Found-Where-Its-At?ncid=emlcntnew00000007)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10861
						From: Ron Plyler
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks, Glenn:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Watching on-line or ebay, I wouldn't recognize a DC-70 motor in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> first place, from a photograph.  Having the proper, original type, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> motor would be just fine with me, however, your NWSL conversion 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sounds pretty intriguing as well.  If I do not drill/alter, etc., 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> this original unit, a can motor could make it a really nice runner 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and handled that way is probably an acceptable way to treat a worthy 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> vintage unit.  (Not that they are rare)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> For something to think about, I'll look into the NWSL kit.  If an 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> original motor shows up, I might just do that to stay original, as I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> never expect to have any amount of railroad to run it a lot 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> anyway.  I know when Oso bought out NWSL, many, many stock items 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> were, "out of stock," and Oso's goal is to slowly re-stock virtually 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> all of the catalog as well as, soon, introducing a new motor 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> concept.  I was just talking with them Friday as I have something of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> an on-going business relationship with them since the formation of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Oso.  (on the book side of things)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> At 07:34 AM 6/7/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >If you want to get it running--get the NWSL "Athearn Conversion  Kit"  which
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >is a 20 x 32 mm can motor with a flywheel--mount it on a 1/16" thick piece
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >of K&S brass drilled and tapped 4-40 to fit.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >From: "Dennis Thompson" <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 7:19 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Subject: [vintageHO] Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Our adult sons were in a bad auto accident recently, so I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > buried in things non-railroad.  (They will be OK).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I recently bought on line an old Mantua Mike;  all cast including
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > tender.  Because of the accident, (above), I gave it only a quick
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > look when it arrived.  Now it is too late to address the fact that I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > just noticed that, although it was advertised as having a Pitman
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > motor, there is actually NO motor in the darned thing.  This is the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Mike version with the frame mounted worm gear/case and would have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > used an independently mounted motor with flexible tubing connection.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > So I'm casually shopping for a motor.  Can anyone tell me how to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > distinguish what motor is the right one considering I have never seen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > one in person?  (I have a couple extras of the later Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > with worm gear installed, so I know what they look like)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Or, would a later motor work if the worm gear is removed and proper
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > tubing installed?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I have seen comments here about what tubing to use, so I would have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > to review that and figure out where to get tubing as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > On the plus side, this Mike is nice and appears to have never been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > painted.  Once running, I think I'll just leave it in it's cast metal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                        There is one on E-Bay now. Item 270402499559 from Bowser that is the newer version DC-70 that should work.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10862
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks, Ron:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I put it on my watch list.  Looks like there is a lot of competition 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
for it.  I have no idea what fair value is, but I'll give it a shot.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 10:10 AM 6/7/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Thanks, Glenn:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Watching on-line or ebay, I wouldn't recognize a DC-70 motor in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > first place, from a photograph.  Having the proper, original type,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > motor would be just fine with me, however, your NWSL conversion
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > sounds pretty intriguing as well.  If I do not drill/alter, etc.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > this original unit, a can motor could make it a really nice runner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > and handled that way is probably an acceptable way to treat a worthy
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > vintage unit.  (Not that they are rare)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > For something to think about, I'll look into the NWSL kit.  If an
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > original motor shows up, I might just do that to stay original, as I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > never expect to have any amount of railroad to run it a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > anyway.  I know when Oso bought out NWSL, many, many stock items
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > were, "out of stock," and Oso's goal is to slowly re-stock virtually
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > all of the catalog as well as, soon, introducing a new motor
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > concept.  I was just talking with them Friday as I have something of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > an on-going business relationship with them since the formation of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Oso.  (on the book side of things)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > At 07:34 AM 6/7/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >If you want to get it running--get the NWSL "Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Conversion  Kit"  which
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >is a 20 x 32 mm can motor with a flywheel--mount it on a 1/16" thick piece
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >of K&S brass drilled and tapped 4-40 to fit.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >From: "Dennis Thompson" <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 7:19 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >Subject: [vintageHO] Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Our adult sons were in a bad auto accident recently, so I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > buried in things non-railroad.  (They will be OK).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > I recently bought on line an old Mantua Mike;  all cast including
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > tender.  Because of the accident, (above), I gave it only a quick
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > look when it arrived.  Now it is too late to address the fact that I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > just noticed that, although it was advertised as having a Pitman
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > motor, there is actually NO motor in the darned thing.  This is the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Mike version with the frame mounted worm gear/case and would have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > used an independently mounted motor with flexible tubing connection.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > So I'm casually shopping for a motor.  Can anyone tell me how to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > distinguish what motor is the right one considering I have never seen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > one in person?  (I have a couple extras of the later Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > with worm gear installed, so I know what they look like)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Or, would a later motor work if the worm gear is removed and proper
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > tubing installed?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > I have seen comments here about what tubing to use, so I would have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > to review that and figure out where to get tubing as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > On the plus side, this Mike is nice and appears to have never been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > painted.  Once running, I think I'll just leave it in it's cast metal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   There is one on E-Bay now. Item 270402499559 from Bowser that is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the newer version DC-70 that should work.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10863
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann Hi Level El Captain passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have noted the same effect -- but my observation is that shortened cars look best in longer consists (10 or more cars) especially while going through cross-overs and other 'S-curve' track alignments. Perhaps it is the length of the train that washes out the individual cars, but a long train of either old Athearn, Mantua, or other oldies look very realistic (until you compare them side-by-side with a scale car.) The only ones that looks out of place are the high-level El Cap cars and the Big Dome cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt Coleman
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Jim E.C.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> As a scale modeler, I always objected to shortened cars as soon as I found out the difference, (although there were some shorter prototypes).  However as a model railroader and particularly a vintage operator, I found that a matched consist of foreshortened cars appears as a more prototypical train winding around most of the curves we have on our layouts, while the scale legnth cars look more toylike!  A paradox of sorts.  So I am able to appreciate both sizes of cars for what they are, especially if the shorties spare none of the other important features and detailing like the well done Fleischmann Hi Level El Capitan cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10864
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      I thought that the Mikado used a DC71.
Anyway, I have one of the early Mantua Mike motors here in with a bunch of
stuff I will be ebaying. I also have the Sagami motor w/flywheel used to
re-power an Athearn that will also be ebayed (gots no use for it now but have
mucho use for money). The Mike motor has some amount of time on it but not a
whole lot while that Sagami has quite a bit. But it ran well when it was
removed so I could re-detail the engine it was in. That Cary S-2 shell,
unfinished, will also be put on ebay. Oh well. One of those ne’er got
done projects that I have plenty of sitting around. Now the injection mold
technology has way-passed Cary 
technology.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      I’ll dig around in the ebay box Monday
or Tuesday and let you know when I find it. Can’t be worth all that much;
I’m thinking $5.00 + postage.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Green Bay & Western Historical Society,
Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 09:20
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Q:
recognizing certain early Mantua 
motors
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      Our adult sons were in a bad auto accident recently, so I've been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
buried in things non-railroad. (They will be OK).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I recently bought on line an old Mantua Mike; all cast including 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
tender. Because of the accident, (above), I gave it only a quick 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
look when it arrived. Now it is too late to address the fact that I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
just noticed that, although it was advertised as having a Pitman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
motor, there is actually NO motor in the darned thing. This is the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike version with the frame mounted worm gear/case and would have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
used an independently mounted motor with flexible tubing connection.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So I'm casually shopping for a motor. Can anyone tell me how to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
distinguish what motor is the right one considering I have never seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
one in person? (I have a couple extras of the later
 Mantua motors 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
with worm gear installed, so I know what they look like)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Or, would a later motor work if the worm gear is removed and proper 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
tubing installed?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have seen comments here about what tubing to use, so I would have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to review that and figure out where to get tubing as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
On the plus side, this Mike is nice and appears to have never been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
painted. Once running, I think I'll just leave it in it's cast metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10865
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Well--about 30 years ago I changed out a bunch of them--until I retired and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
moved about 8 years ago I could go right to the box of them--but now???  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
do have two or three Japanese copies in some On3 locos waiting to get 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
changed out--so many other projects get in the way.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Mantua/ Pittman motor you are looking for gas a roughly cubical magnet 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
at one end, with the brushes at the other--with the shaft there.  Iron pole 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
pieces top and bottom, with the armature visible at the sides.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
For my can motor conversion, I take a piece of K&S 1/16" x 1/2" brass and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
cut it as long as the motor mount area.  drill two holes in it to clear the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
two 2mm holes in the side of the motor.  Mount the motor to that.  Dry fit 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the assembly to the loco using a piece of plastic tubing.  Mark the motor 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
mount screw hole in the frame to  the brass  plate.  Remove the plate, drill 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and tap the mounting hole 4-40 and put it all together.  I probably could 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
have done it in less time than it took to describe it.   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Dennis Thompson" <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 7:46 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks, Glenn:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Watching on-line or ebay, I wouldn't recognize a DC-70 motor in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> first place, from a photograph.  Having the proper, original type,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> motor would be just fine with me, however, your NWSL conversion
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sounds pretty intriguing as well.  If I do not drill/alter, etc.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> this original unit, a can motor could make it a really nice runner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and handled that way is probably an acceptable way to treat a worthy
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> vintage unit.  (Not that they are rare)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> For something to think about, I'll look into the NWSL kit.  If an
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> original motor shows up, I might just do that to stay original, as I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> never expect to have any amount of railroad to run it a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> anyway.  I know when Oso bought out NWSL, many, many stock items
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> were, "out of stock," and Oso's goal is to slowly re-stock virtually
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> all of the catalog as well as, soon, introducing a new motor
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> concept.  I was just talking with them Friday as I have something of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> an on-going business relationship with them since the formation of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Oso.  (on the book side of things)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> At 07:34 AM 6/7/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>If you want to get it running--get the NWSL "Athearn Conversion  Kit" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>which
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>is a 20 x 32 mm can motor with a flywheel--mount it on a 1/16" thick piece
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>of K&S brass drilled and tapped 4-40 to fit.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>From: "Dennis Thompson" <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 7:19 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>Subject: [vintageHO] Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > Our adult sons were in a bad auto accident recently, so I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > buried in things non-railroad.  (They will be OK).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > I recently bought on line an old Mantua Mike;  all cast including
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > tender.  Because of the accident, (above), I gave it only a quick
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > look when it arrived.  Now it is too late to address the fact that I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > just noticed that, although it was advertised as having a Pitman
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > motor, there is actually NO motor in the darned thing.  This is the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > Mike version with the frame mounted worm gear/case and would have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > used an independently mounted motor with flexible tubing connection.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > So I'm casually shopping for a motor.  Can anyone tell me how to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > distinguish what motor is the right one considering I have never seen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > one in person?  (I have a couple extras of the later Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > with worm gear installed, so I know what they look like)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > Or, would a later motor work if the worm gear is removed and proper
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > tubing installed?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > I have seen comments here about what tubing to use, so I would have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > to review that and figure out where to get tubing as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > On the plus side, this Mike is nice and appears to have never been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > painted.  Once running, I think I'll just leave it in it's cast metal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
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No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.54/2159 - Release Date: 06/06/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10866
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors-John
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      
John, thank you for the offer.  I will gladly purchase your early
Mike motor;  sounds like it would be a drop-in fit once tubing is
located.  And, if the motor runs fine now, it will probably never be
worn out around here.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Let me know when you find it.  You can drop me a note directly or
via this List.

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks again,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis Thompson

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 01:09 PM 6/7/2009, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I thought that the Mikado used a DC71. Anyway, I have one of the early
Mantua Mike motors here in with a bunch of stuff I will be ebaying. I
also have the Sagami motor w/flywheel used to re-power an Athearn that
will also be ebayed (gots no use for it now but have mucho use for
money). The Mike motor has some amount of time on it but not a whole lot
while that Sagami has quite a bit. But it ran well when it was removed so
I could re-detail the engine it was in. That Cary S-2 shell, unfinished,
will also be put on ebay. Oh well. One of those ne�er got done projects
that I have plenty of sitting around. Now the injection mold technology
has way-passed Cary technology.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I�ll dig around in the ebay box Monday or Tuesday and let you know when I
find it. Can�t be worth all that much; I�m thinking $5.00 + postage.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                      John
Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
[
mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dennis
Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 09:20
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Q: recognizing certain early Mantua
motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
Our adult sons were in a bad auto accident recently, so I've been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
buried in things non-railroad. (They will be OK).

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I recently bought on line an old Mantua Mike; all cast including 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
tender. Because of the accident, (above), I gave it only a quick 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
look when it arrived. Now it is too late to address the fact that I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
just noticed that, although it was advertised as having a Pitman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
motor, there is actually NO motor in the darned thing. This is the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike version with the frame mounted worm gear/case and would have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
used an independently mounted motor with flexible tubing
connection.

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So I'm casually shopping for a motor. Can anyone tell me how to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
distinguish what motor is the right one considering I have never seen

                                                                                                                                                                                      
one in person? (I have a couple extras of the later Mantua motors 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
with worm gear installed, so I know what they look like)

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Or, would a later motor work if the worm gear is removed and proper 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
tubing installed?

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have seen comments here about what tubing to use, so I would have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to review that and figure out where to get tubing as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                      
On the plus side, this Mike is nice and appears to have never been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
painted. Once running, I think I'll just leave it in it's cast metal

                                                                                                                                                                                      
appearance.

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10867
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      That should do it--Bowser makes (made) the Pittman motors.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Ron Plyler" <ron_tallyho@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:10 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  There is one on E-Bay now. Item 270402499559 from Bowser that is the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> newer version DC-70 that should work.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
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No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.55/2160 - Release Date: 06/07/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10868
						From: erieberk
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, you're correct; the all-cast Mantua Mikado and Pacific with the integral gear box used the Pittman DC-71 motor (not the DC-70). RayW.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I thought that the Mikado used a DC71. Anyway, I have one of the early
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mantua Mike motors here in with a bunch of stuff I will be ebaying. I also
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have the Sagami motor w/flywheel used to re-power an Athearn that will also
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> be ebayed (gots no use for it now but have mucho use for money). The Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> motor has some amount of time on it but not a whole lot while that Sagami
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> has quite a bit. But it ran well when it was removed so I could re-detail
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the engine it was in. That Cary S-2 shell, unfinished, will also be put on
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ebay. Oh well. One of those ne'er got done projects that I have plenty of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sitting around. Now the injection mold technology has way-passed Cary
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> technology.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I'll dig around in the ebay box Monday or Tuesday and let you know when I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> find it. Can't be worth all that much; I'm thinking $5.00 + postage.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Of Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 09:20
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Our adult sons were in a bad auto accident recently, so I've been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> buried in things non-railroad. (They will be OK).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I recently bought on line an old Mantua Mike; all cast including 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> tender. Because of the accident, (above), I gave it only a quick 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> look when it arrived. Now it is too late to address the fact that I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> just noticed that, although it was advertised as having a Pitman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> motor, there is actually NO motor in the darned thing. This is the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike version with the frame mounted worm gear/case and would have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> used an independently mounted motor with flexible tubing connection.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> So I'm casually shopping for a motor. Can anyone tell me how to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> distinguish what motor is the right one considering I have never seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> one in person? (I have a couple extras of the later Mantua motors 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> with worm gear installed, so I know what they look like)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Or, would a later motor work if the worm gear is removed and proper 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> tubing installed?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have seen comments here about what tubing to use, so I would have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to review that and figure out where to get tubing as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On the plus side, this Mike is nice and appears to have never been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> painted. Once running, I think I'll just leave it in it's cast metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10869
						From: erieberk
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: V List Walthers Metal Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chuck, With so many members here collecting passenger equipment, I thought some additions to the Walthers Passenger Car spread-sheet might be of some interest.  Please add these when you can.  The date on the end is the catalog time range, although this date is right in the middle (toward the beginning) of production -- I don't know when these were discontinued.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gas Electric -- Doodle-Bug:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7653 75' Coach, Gas Electric Trailer, Arch Roof -  1953 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Suburban Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7518 70' Coach, New Haven - 1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7519 70' Coach, Illinois Central - 1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7520 70' Coach, Lackawanna - 1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7521 70' Combine, Lackawanna - 1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7522 70' Coach, Long Island - 1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7523 70' Coach, New York Central - 1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7524 70' Combine, New York Central - 1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7525 70' Coach, Pennsylvania - 1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7526 70' Combine, Pennsylvania -1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7527 70' Coach, Reading - 1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Interurban Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7528 60' Coach, South Shore - 1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7529 60' Combine, South Shore - 1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7530 60' Coach, North Shore - 1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7531 60' Combine, North Shore - 1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7532 60' Express, North Shore - 1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7533 60' Coach, Milwaukee Electric - 1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7534 60' Coach, Pacific Electric - 1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7535 60' Express, North Shore - 1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
All for now, Ray F. W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10870
						From: ron plyler
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      They are pretty common.  I have bought two or three originals for around $10.00.  I have some of the newer ones from Bowser and I can't see much difference in performance.  You can buy direct from Bowser for I think $37.95.  You can also trade direct to Bowser and exchange your old motor for a new one.

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sun, 6/7/09, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Dennis Thompson <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009, 1:56 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      






    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks, Ron:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I put it on my watch list.  Looks like there is a lot of competition 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
for it.  I have no idea what fair value is, but I'll give it a shot.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 10:10 AM 6/7/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Thanks, Glenn:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Watching on-line or ebay, I wouldn't recognize a DC-70 motor in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > first place, from a photograph.  Having the proper, original type,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > motor would be just fine with me, however, your NWSL conversion
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > sounds pretty intriguing as well.  If I do not drill/alter, etc.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > this original unit, a can motor could make it a really nice runner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > and handled that way is probably an acceptable way to treat a worthy
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > vintage unit.  (Not that they are rare)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > For something to think about, I'll look into the NWSL kit.  If an
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > original motor shows up, I might just do that to stay original, as I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > never expect to have any amount of railroad to run it a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > anyway.  I know when Oso bought out NWSL, many, many stock items
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > were, "out of stock," and Oso's goal is to slowly re-stock virtually
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > all of the catalog as well as, soon, introducing a new motor
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > concept.  I was just talking with them Friday as I have something of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > an on-going business relationship with them since the formation of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Oso.  (on the book side of things)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > At 07:34 AM 6/7/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >If you want to get it running--get the NWSL "Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Conversion  Kit"  which
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >is a 20 x 32 mm can motor with a flywheel--mount it on a 1/16" thick piece
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >of K&S brass drilled and tapped 4-40 to fit.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >From: "Dennis Thompson" <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 7:19 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >Subject: [vintageHO] Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Our adult sons were in a bad auto accident recently, so I've been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > buried in things non-railroad.  (They will be OK).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > I recently bought on line an old Mantua Mike;  all cast including
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > tender.  Because of the accident, (above), I gave it only a quick
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > look when it arrived.  Now it is too late to address the fact that I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > just noticed that, although it was advertised as having a Pitman
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > motor, there is actually NO motor in the darned thing.  This is the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Mike version with the frame mounted worm gear/case and would have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > used an independently mounted motor with flexible tubing connection.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > So I'm casually shopping for a motor.  Can anyone tell me how to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > distinguish what motor is the right one considering I have never seen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > one in person?  (I have a couple extras of the later Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > with worm gear installed, so I know what they look like)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Or, would a later motor work if the worm gear is removed and proper
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > tubing installed?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > I have seen comments here about what tubing to use, so I would have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > to review that and figure out where to get tubing as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > On the plus side, this Mike is nice and appears to have never been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > painted.  Once running, I think I'll just leave it in it's cast metal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > appearance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   There is one on E-Bay now. Item 270402499559 from Bowser that is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the newer version DC-70 that should work.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10871
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: V List Walthers Metal Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Ray, file is updated.  Thanks for
the info.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 6:01
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: V List
Walthers Metal Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chuck, With so many members here collecting
passenger equipment, I thought some additions to the Walthers Passenger Car
spread-sheet might be of some interest. Please add these when you can. The date
on the end is the catalog time range, although this date is right in the middle
(toward the beginning) of production -- I don't know when these were
discontinued.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gas Electric -- Doodle-Bug:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
#7653 75' Coach, Gas Electric Trailer, Arch Roof - 1953 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Suburban Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10872
						From: Don Grant
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The DC-71 is the correct motor.  $ 5.00 is a good deal.  Grab it!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sun, 6/7/09, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009, 1:09 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      





                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I thought that the Mikado used a DC71. Anyway, I have one of the early Mantua Mike motors here in with a bunch of stuff I will be ebaying. I also have the Sagami motor w/flywheel used to re-power an Athearn that will also be ebayed (gots no use for it now but have mucho use for money). The Mike motor has some amount of time on it but not a whole lot while that Sagami has quite a bit. But it ran well when it was removed so I could re-detail the engine it was in. That Cary S-2 shell, unfinished, will also be put on ebay. Oh well. One of those ne’er got done projects that I have plenty of sitting around. Now the injection mold technology has way-passed Cary technology.

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      I’ll dig around in the ebay box Monday or Tuesday and let you know when I find it. Can’t be worth all that much; I’m thinking $5.00 + postage.

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines

                                                                                                                                                                                      Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 09:20
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Our adult sons were in a bad auto accident recently, so I've been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      buried in things non-railroad. (They will be OK).

                                                                                                                                                                                      I recently bought on line an old Mantua Mike; all cast including 
                                                                                                                                                                                      tender. Because of the accident, (above), I gave it only a quick 
                                                                                                                                                                                      look when it arrived. Now it is too late to address the fact that I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      just noticed that, although it was advertised as having a Pitman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      motor, there is actually NO motor in the darned thing. This is the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike version with the frame mounted worm gear/case and would have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      used an independently mounted motor with flexible tubing connection.

                                                                                                                                                                                      So I'm casually shopping for a motor. Can anyone tell me how to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      distinguish what motor is the right one considering I have never seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                      one in person? (I have a couple extras of the later Mantua motors
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      with worm gear installed, so I know what they look like)

                                                                                                                                                                                      Or, would a later motor work if the worm gear is removed and proper 
                                                                                                                                                                                      tubing installed?

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have seen comments here about what tubing to use, so I would have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      to review that and figure out where to get tubing as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                      On the plus side, this Mike is nice and appears to have never been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      painted. Once running, I think I'll just leave it in it's cast metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                      appearance.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10873
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: V List Walthers Metal Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I believe the 7600 series interurban and MU cars were discontinued ca. 1958, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
replaced by the 5500 series North Shore cars and PRR MU cars as part of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
"silver anniversary" series started in 1959.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 7:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: V List Walthers Metal Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Ray, file is updated.  Thanks for the info.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  _____
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 6:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: V List Walthers Metal Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Chuck, With so many members here collecting passenger equipment, I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> thought some additions to the Walthers Passenger Car spread-sheet might be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of some interest. Please add these when you can. The date on the end is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> catalog time range, although this date is right in the middle (toward the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> beginning) of production -- I don't know when these were discontinued.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gas Electric -- Doodle-Bug:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> #7653 75' Coach, Gas Electric Trailer, Arch Roof - 1953
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Suburban Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10874
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: eBay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I need to pick some brains. I have not sold anything on eBay since 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
they mandated that sellers must use some form of electronic payment 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
system. I never liked  the idea of unknown people being able to tap into 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
my bank account.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Unfortunately I've been out of work since February and, with more 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
than half of my unemployment benefits used up, I need to consider 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
generating some additional income. So far I am not in default on any 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
bills but don't want to wait until that point to do something. The job 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
searches aren't being very fruitful.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    I'd like to here from people that are selling on eBay about their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
experiences with Paypal, etc. Not necessarily professional dealers, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
casual sellers like me. I have various miscellaneous odds and ends - not 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
necessarily trains - that I can dispose of to hopefully pick up some 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
additional income until things turn around for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    If this is not a proper subject for discussion in the open forum 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
than contact me off list.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
"Nature makes boys and girls lovely to look upon so they can be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
tolerated until they acquire some sense."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    - William Phelps
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10875
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Rick
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have both bought and sold on ebay and personally prefer paypal.  I used to prefer money orders before I signed up for paypal.  I would go to one place to buy the money order, buy envelopes somewhere else then go to the post office for stamps..paypal eliminates all that hassle.  You can pay or be paid almost instantly with paypal without even getting up from the computer.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      As for your personal information only paypal has that, I as buyer or seller never see anything about the finance of the other party.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I am sure there may be someone here who has had trouble with paypal somehow, but I have been most fortunate that so far it has only been very handy for my personal purposes. Yes paypal charges a fee to use their service, but the time savings not to mention running around time, more than makes up for it for my purposes.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Wobbly913  

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sun, 6/7/09, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] eBay
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, HOrailroading@yahoogroups.com, HOtrains@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009, 8:54 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I need to pick some brains. I have not sold anything on eBay since 
                                                                                                                                                                                      they mandated that sellers must use some form of electronic payment 
                                                                                                                                                                                      system. I never liked  the idea of unknown people being able to tap into 
                                                                                                                                                                                      my bank account.
                                                                                                                                                                                          Unfortunately I've been out of work since February and, with more 
                                                                                                                                                                                      than half of my unemployment benefits used up, I need to consider 
                                                                                                                                                                                      generating some additional income. So far I am not in default on any 
                                                                                                                                                                                      bills but don't want to wait until that point to do something. The job 
                                                                                                                                                                                      searches aren't being very fruitful.
                                                                                                                                                                                          I'd like to here from people that are selling on eBay about their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      experiences with Paypal, etc. Not necessarily professional dealers, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      casual sellers like me. I have various miscellaneous odds and ends - not 
                                                                                                                                                                                      necessarily trains - that I can dispose of to hopefully pick up some 
                                                                                                                                                                                      additional income until things turn
 around for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                          If this is not a proper subject for discussion in the open forum 
                                                                                                                                                                                      than contact me off list.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -- 

                                                                                                                                                                                                         Rick Jones

                                                                                                                                                                                      "Nature makes boys and girls lovely to look upon so they can be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      tolerated until they acquire some sense."
                                                                                                                                                                                          - William Phelps


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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10876
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I've sold a little on ebay taking by PayPal.  
No problems.  Bought a lot by PayPal.  No problems I can think 
of.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I haven't done much selling recently and I do 
see sellers complaining more and more 
about...:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      - Fee levels
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      - Being forced to use PayPal (which means ebay 
effectively gets to "double dip" with their charges since they own 
PayPal)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      - PayPal favoring customers in disputes too 
much
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I just sold a Studebaker bumper part (not on ebay) 
to a guy and let him pay me by PayPal.  The fee to me was 
$7.84.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I think ebay sellers can now list only PayPal or 
credit cards as payment options.  However, some have sent an email saying 
they will accept a check or money order.  And at least one I know makes it 
clear on the auction page "*** SORRY WE DO NOT ACCEPT PAY-PAL ***" but do accept 
credit cards but direct you to their "about me" page.  On that, they 
explain they will happily take checks and money orders.  I don't know if 
ebay is going to, or can, crack down on this sort of "end run".  I hope 
not.  And I'm not mentioning the seller because, well, let's keep names 
away from big brother.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      On the other hand, ebay reaches a phenominal number 
of potential buyers and Pay Pal does introduce another "big brother" into the 
picture.  That's probably part bad, and part good.  I guess you just 
chalk up the fees as a "cost of doing business".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      And then there are the "shipping and handling 
charges" where some sellers seem to try and make too much money on them or 
perhaps have you effectively pay their fees with bloated shipping and handling 
charges.  Of course, there really is "handling" involved, in many 
cases procurement and even purchase of packing materials, time to pack, gas to 
drive to the post office, and such.  I'm pretty forgiving if there is an 
extra buck or two - and that's probably justified.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  Rick 
  Jones 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 8:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] eBay
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I need to pick some brains. I have not sold anything on eBay since 
                                                                                                                                                                                      they 
  mandated that sellers must use some form of electronic payment 
                                                                                                                                                                                      system. I 
  never liked the idea of unknown people being able to tap into 
                                                                                                                                                                                      my bank 
  account.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Unfortunately I've been out of work since February and, with more 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      than half of my unemployment benefits used up, I need to consider 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      generating some additional income. So far I am not in default on any 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      bills but don't want to wait until that point to do something. The job 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      searches aren't being very fruitful.
                                                                                                                                                                                      I'd like to here from people that 
  are selling on eBay about their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      experiences with Paypal, etc. Not 
  necessarily professional dealers, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      casual sellers like me. I have 
  various miscellaneous odds and ends - not 
                                                                                                                                                                                      necessarily trains - that I can 
  dispose of to hopefully pick up some 
                                                                                                                                                                                      additional income until things turn 
  around for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      If this is not a proper subject for discussion in the open 
  forum 
                                                                                                                                                                                      than contact me off list.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -- 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Rick 
  Jones

                                                                                                                                                                                      "Nature makes boys and girls lovely to look upon so they can be 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      tolerated until they acquire some sense."
                                                                                                                                                                                      - William 
Phelps
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10877
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I can suggest a way to setup an account........
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have a separate checking account that I use a debit card with. I  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
only put money in there to cover purchases I think I might make. It is  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
completely isolated from my regular account. I use PayPal and the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
occasional Internet buy through it. I have had it approved by PayPal  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
for their nagging checking insistence, where they have you confirm  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
that it is a real account with that procedure they put their users  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
through.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If it ever gets compromised, I can apply to have my stolen funds  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
replaced by the Credit Union/Bank, I check on it regularly via The Web.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
A crook will never get much from it, there will never be much surplus  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
cash in it. I rarely load it with more than a few 100's, and mostly  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
when I expect to be making some buys.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Jun 7, 2009, at 10:54 PM, Rick Jones wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    I need to pick some brains. I have not sold anything on eBay since
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> they mandated that sellers must use some form of electronic payment
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> system. I never liked  the idea of unknown people being able to tap  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> into
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> my bank account.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Unfortunately I've been out of work since February and, with more
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> than half of my unemployment benefits used up, I need to consider
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> generating some additional income. So far I am not in default on any
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> bills but don't want to wait until that point to do something. The job
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> searches aren't being very fruitful.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    I'd like to here from people that are selling on eBay about their
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> experiences with Paypal, etc. Not necessarily professional dealers,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> but
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> casual sellers like me. I have various miscellaneous odds and ends -  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> not
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> necessarily trains - that I can dispose of to hopefully pick up some
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> additional income until things turn around for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    If this is not a proper subject for discussion in the open forum
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> than contact me off list. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10878
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have some recent experiences with ebay/PayPal.  I am a casual buyer 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
at times, and a very infrequent seller.   In my opinion they have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
made it more difficult for sellers in recent times and more 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
costly.  In general, I get through the ebay portion of it all OK.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
just take my time listing items.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
PayPal is a slightly different matter.  I see PayPal as tricky, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
invasive and unpredictable in what their, "system," does.  And ebay 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
tries to tell every seller/buyer now that they, "must," use 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
PayPal.  Overall, PayPal can work flawlessly and very efficiently, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and that is what pleases many, some of who have already answered here.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The recommendation of a separate bank account dedicated to PayPal is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
a good one.  I had used a credit card, set up with PayPal to pay for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
purchased items for a long time;  never had a problem.  The trouble 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
began when I wanted to sell a few odd things several months 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
ago.  Almost from the outset, PayPal seemed to required I tie my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
selling to a checking account.  I eventually gave in when someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
paid for a book I sold and their payment got stuck in PayPal.  The 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
only way I could get my money out was to tie in a checking account 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and then transfer the money.  (I used an almost empty checking 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
account we were going to drop anyway, so there was/is very little in it)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The next problem came when my wife bought some low cost item and paid 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
via PayPal.  Little did she know, PayPal was set to always take money 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
from the, "new," checking account.  We intentionally left very little 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
money in that account, so the PayPal withdraw went into us as an 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
overdraft.  Fortunately, I was watching and caught it in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
time.  Example:  if you leave $100 in your PayPal dedicated checking 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
account and someone in your family buys something on ebay for $150, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
PayPal will attempt to take it from your checking account leaving you 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
with an overdraft.   They say that won't happen, but it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
does...absolutely; and they don't care what your account balance is.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I now have this personal policy:  if I buy something on ebay, I pay 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
by finding the, "more funding options," small print buried in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
PayPal process, click on it and then select credit card.    When I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sell something via PayPal, I almost immediately, "withdraw," it from 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the PayPal account into my checking account.  When they force sales 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to private checking accounts I think PayPal avoids credit card fees 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and make more money, so they are very slick about suckering customers 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to their way of doing things.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sorry for the long reply.  In general, ebay/PalPay works, but be very 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
careful.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis, who will never trust PayPal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 08:54 PM 6/7/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >     I need to pick some brains. I have not sold anything on eBay since
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>they mandated that sellers must use some form of electronic payment
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>system. I never liked  the idea of unknown people being able to tap into
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>my bank account.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Unfortunately I've been out of work since February and, with more
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>than half of my unemployment benefits used up, I need to consider
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>generating some additional income. So far I am not in default on any
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>bills but don't want to wait until that point to do something. The job
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>searches aren't being very fruitful.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     I'd like to here from people that are selling on eBay about their
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>experiences with Paypal, etc. Not necessarily professional dealers, but
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>casual sellers like me. I have various miscellaneous odds and ends - not
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>necessarily trains - that I can dispose of to hopefully pick up some
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>additional income until things turn around for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     If this is not a proper subject for discussion in the open forum
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>than contact me off list.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>--
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                    Rick Jones 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10879
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > I can suggest a way to setup an account........
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have a separate checking account that I use a debit card with. I  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> only put money in there to cover purchases I think I might make. It is  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> completely isolated from my regular account. I use PayPal and the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> occasional Internet buy through it. I have had it approved by PayPal  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> for their nagging checking insistence, where they have you confirm  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that it is a real account with that procedure they put their users  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> through.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> If it ever gets compromised, I can apply to have my stolen funds  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> replaced by the Credit Union/Bank, I check on it regularly via The Web.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> A crook will never get much from it, there will never be much surplus  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> cash in it. I rarely load it with more than a few 100's, and mostly  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> when I expect to be making some buys.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          That's pretty much what I had in mind - a separate account with a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
minimal balance only for Paypal. Transferring money back and forth from 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
my checking account as needed.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
"Yes, I am and, yes, I do."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    -Felicity Shagwell, "Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10880
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 6/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis Thompson wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The recommendation of a separate bank account dedicated to PayPal is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> a good one.  I had used a credit card, set up with PayPal to pay for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> purchased items for a long time;  never had a problem.  The trouble 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> began when I wanted to sell a few odd things several months 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ago.  Almost from the outset, PayPal seemed to required I tie my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> selling to a checking account.  I eventually gave in when someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> paid for a book I sold and their payment got stuck in PayPal.  The 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> only way I could get my money out was to tie in a checking account 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and then transfer the money.  (I used an almost empty checking 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> account we were going to drop anyway, so there was/is very little in it)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          Does it have to be a checking account? Savings account won't work?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10881
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      There is a new catch many wont be aware yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I bought a model RR item some time ago, and hadnt yet left feedback as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
it was ( by my request) not sent to me directly but to a friend who will 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
forward it to me. Last week I received a message from the seller asking 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
if anything is wrong , as I hadnt left feedback.... I explained to him 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
that I havent had seen the item. He then told me that Paypals new policy 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
is that the payment is held back for THREE WEEKS if there is no feedback 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
left. As I had confidence that the item is as described, and my friend 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
had confirmed that he had received it, I left positive feedback as I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
felt it would be unfair to have the seller suffer an disadvantage 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
because of my shipping procedure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
However I feel this practice is an extreme abuse of their dominating 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
position. First they have forced sellers to accept Paypal ( actually a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
big advantage for me) , now they dictate unfavorable terms at will.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Wonder what they will come up with next?  Unfortunately, I see no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
alternative to eBay/ Paypal; neither now nor in the forseeable future.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10882
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Gerald,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I've never had that problem with paypal, so am unaware of any situation, sometimes I don't leave feedback right away, and often as a seller, I don't get feedback right away either, and have never had a problem with paypal holding payments, sometimes I never recieve feedback from a buyer, just the nature of the beast I guess............:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 3:38:09 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay/PayPal

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      There is a new catch many wont be aware yet.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I bought a model RR item some time ago, and hadnt yet left feedback as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      it was ( by my request) not sent to me directly but to a friend who will 
                                                                                                                                                                                      forward it to me. Last week I received a message from the seller asking 
                                                                                                                                                                                      if anything is wrong , as I hadnt left feedback.... I explained to him 
                                                                                                                                                                                      that I havent had seen the item. He then told me that Paypals new policy 
                                                                                                                                                                                      is that the payment is held back for THREE WEEKS if there is no feedback 
                                                                                                                                                                                      left. As I had confidence that the item is as described, and my friend 
                                                                                                                                                                                      had confirmed that he had received it, I left positive feedback as I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      felt it would be unfair to have the seller suffer an disadvantage 
                                                                                                                                                                                      because of my shipping procedure.

                                                                                                                                                                                      However I feel this practice is an extreme abuse of their dominating 
                                                                                                                                                                                      position. First they have forced sellers to accept Paypal ( actually a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      big advantage for me) , now they dictate
 unfavorable terms at will. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Wonder what they will come up with next? Unfortunately, I see no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      alternative to eBay/ Paypal; neither now nor in the forseeable future.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gerold


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10883
						From: erieberk
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: V List Walthers Metal Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chuck,  Many thanks for being on top of this, and for entering the additional info in the Walthers file.  Your work is appreciated, as well as your promptness.  Later,  Ray F. W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Ray, file is updated.  Thanks for the info.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 6:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: V List Walthers Metal Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Chuck, With so many members here collecting passenger equipment, I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> thought some additions to the Walthers Passenger Car spread-sheet might be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of some interest. Please add these when you can. The date on the end is the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> catalog time range, although this date is right in the middle (toward the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> beginning) of production -- I don't know when these were discontinued.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gas Electric -- Doodle-Bug:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> #7653 75' Coach, Gas Electric Trailer, Arch Roof - 1953 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Suburban Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10884
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Rick,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I know this is off-topic, but I have tremendous experience both with buying and selling. PLEASE Email me off-line and I will go into it with extensive detail. It is a tremendous sourse of supplimental income.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have well over 5000 transactions (only ~4700 feedbacks). I can count on two hands the number of transactions that were bad. None where I was cheated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      As for ebay & PayPal fees, Total: ~12%-15%.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Paypal is a neccessary evil. It is very usefull and makes the process very efficient and trustworthy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com; HOrailroading@yahoogroups.com; HOtrains@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2009 11:54:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] eBay

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I need to pick some brains. I have not sold anything on eBay since 
                                                                                                                                                                                      they mandated that sellers must use some form of electronic payment 
                                                                                                                                                                                      system. I never liked the idea of unknown people being able to tap into 
                                                                                                                                                                                      my bank account.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Unfortunately I've been out of work since February and, with more 
                                                                                                                                                                                      than half of my unemployment benefits used up, I need to consider 
                                                                                                                                                                                      generating some additional income. So far I am not in default on any 
                                                                                                                                                                                      bills but don't want to wait until that point to do something. The job 
                                                                                                                                                                                      searches aren't being very fruitful.
                                                                                                                                                                                      I'd like to here from people that are selling on eBay about their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      experiences with Paypal, etc. Not necessarily professional dealers, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      casual sellers like me. I have various miscellaneous odds and ends - not 
                                                                                                                                                                                      necessarily trains - that I can dispose of to hopefully pick up some 
                                                                                                                                                                                      additional income until things turn around for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      If this is not a proper subject for discussion
 in the open forum 
                                                                                                                                                                                      than contact me off list.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -- 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Rick Jones

                                                                                                                                                                                      "Nature makes boys and girls lovely to look upon so they can be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      tolerated until they acquire some sense."
                                                                                                                                                                                      - William Phelps

                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10885
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Some additional ebay thoughts: The changes in eBay over the past year are somewhat saddening, as I have seen some old familiar sellers drop out.  Searching through the eBay listings was how I gained much of my education in vintage HO, though simple observation, asking questions and of course, buying. It was like walking theorugh the aisles of a train show with tens of thousands of items, 24/7. I gained some new friends, both local and distant, other major collectors in my areas of interest.  (Now we have hidden ID's.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
eBay's long term policy as repoprted in the past year or so in the NY Times and financial media like Maria Bartiromo's Sunday TV show, is to diminish the importance of on-line auctions (that built the company) and go to a direct sales plan like Amazon's because "many people find the aution experience difficult" or some such blather.  An oversimplifaction perhaps, but it reminds me of the same nearsighteness that lead US Steel to focus on "money management" rather than making steel which lead to US Steel's downfall as they ingnored their basic product.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No doubt, the self-serving managers at eBay will point to the drop off in traditional eBay activity as confirming "difficulty with the auction experience" or use the old standby excuse for corporate ineptitude like "it's the economy" instead of faulting the complex new payment system.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Forgetting that the new system discourages many who like me, who never wished to have a second hobby of accounting; monitoring a number of seperate accounts (paypal, credit, or checking) just to buy an old $5.00 Varney boxcar.  In the new process, they are generating more profits from seller's as well, to justify their generous salaries and corporate bureaucracy that is far larger than five years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
There are a number of eBay sellers, major sellers too, like Keith Wise (Wiseman on eBay) who still have refused to accept Paypal on principal and state so in big red leters right in their item descriptions.  And although I am rusty in remembering my old business law coursework, but possibly eBay's tolerance may be because their "PayPal Only" payment policy requirement may be in violation of the Uniform Commercial Code, which all states have adopted in some manner since the 1930's(?) and governs virtually all interstate business transactions, or may violate some specific state's statutes.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Many eBay sellers will still accept alternative payment such as US Postal Money Orders, although you have go through the cumbersome process of asking before the auction is over. That is why so many more listings the seller specifically say "ask me about any options" or words to that effect before the bid closes.  Because as some sellers have communicated, eBay limits their "free speech."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I still pay direct when I am able, and it is still possible to leave feedback if you do not pay through "The PayPal System."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It's just that eBay is not as much fun anymore.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I'll still be there, but I am lucky that my area (Northeast) still has a number of train shows almost every month within an easy drive, and although some have flounderd, other are flourishing, mabey the small sellers will return rather than endure the hassles on eBay.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Gerald,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I've never had that problem with paypal, so am unaware of any situation, sometimes I don't leave feedback right away, and often as a seller, I don't get feedback right away either, and have never had a problem with paypal holding payments, sometimes I never recieve feedback from a buyer, just the nature of the beast I guess............:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 3:38:09 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay/PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There is a new catch many wont be aware yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I bought a model RR item some time ago, and hadnt yet left feedback as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> it was ( by my request) not sent to me directly but to a friend who will 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> forward it to me. Last week I received a message from the seller asking 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> if anything is wrong , as I hadnt left feedback.... I explained to him 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that I havent had seen the item. He then told me that Paypals new policy 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> is that the payment is held back for THREE WEEKS if there is no feedback 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> left. As I had confidence that the item is as described, and my friend 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> had confirmed that he had received it, I left positive feedback as I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> felt it would be unfair to have the seller suffer an disadvantage 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> because of my shipping procedure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> However I feel this practice is an extreme abuse of their dominating 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> position. First they have forced sellers to accept Paypal ( actually a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> big advantage for me) , now they dictate unfavorable terms at will. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Wonder what they will come up with next? Unfortunately, I see no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> alternative to eBay/ Paypal; neither now nor in the forseeable future.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10886
						From: Mike
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean - I also sell alot on eBay (under the name lionelsuperotrack)and the PayPal fees certainly rankle me. I have been selling for 12 years or so. The PayPal fees are in the 3 1/2 to 5% as you identify. It is alot. I had no problem with postal money orders, checks etc. I certainly liked that option.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Regards, Mike Spanier
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Rick,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I know this is off-topic, but I have tremendous experience both with buying and selling. PLEASE Email me off-line and I will go into it with extensive detail. It is a tremendous sourse of supplimental income.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have well over 5000 transactions (only ~4700 feedbacks). I can count on two hands the number of transactions that were bad. None where I was cheated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> As for ebay & PayPal fees, Total: ~12%-15%.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Paypal is a neccessary evil. It is very usefull and makes the process very efficient and trustworthy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10887
						From: Larry
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
"Many eBay sellers will still accept alternative payment such as US Postal Money Orders, although you have go through the cumbersome process of asking before the auction is over. That is why so many more listings the seller specifically say "ask me about any options" or words to that effect before the bid closes.  Because as some sellers have communicated, eBay limits their "free speech."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Yes this is very True, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
If you list anything with the words Money Order, Ebay will not let you list the item untell it is removed, BUT,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
you can say MO and get away with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I Agree it is allot harder to list items now and fees, good lord...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I can see why Ebay bought Paypal, But it really does have it's downfalls.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
And for those who do not know
                                                                                                                                                                                      
"I have only looked around, not bought or sold here"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Ebid.net  is a alternitive site just like Ebay, and is from what I have read, allot easyer ont he Fees then Ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and they have a good amount of stuff listed there,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
not sure the prices are any better for buying items, but it's another auction site.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Larry Doub 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Davenport Iowa 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10888
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I had a surprise with checking account overdrafts 
with Pay Pal when I first started many years ago.  I had given Pay Pal my 
checking account and a credit card.  I think this is pretty typical.  
I think that it used to remember which mode you were paying in.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      One day I get this call from the bank that I had 
about twenty overdrafts due to Pay Pal transactions (most very little 
like for several dollar brochures or postcards) and said this seemed outside of 
my pattern.  Pay Pal had made a change to automatically defaulting to 
checking with the credit card as the "backup funding choice".  Of course, 
that's only if you bank refuses.  Banks make big bucks on overdraft charges 
so they tend not to refuse, they tend to hammer you for the overdrafts.  (I 
have a wonderful bank who only charged me one overdraft charge for the whole 
shebang.  So in the end, they did me a courtesy by paying the 
things.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      It is true that they do make the "funding options" 
in sort of small print.  But it's there.  And if you switch to the 
credit card, it will ask "are you sure you want to do this?.  Just remember 
that it won't remember for the next time.  It always defaults to 
checking.  Once you've been "surprised" once, you will tend to 
remember it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:49 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
eBay/PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have some recent experiences with ebay/PayPal. I am a casual buyer 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      at times, and a very infrequent seller. In my opinion they have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      made 
  it more difficult for sellers in recent times and more 
                                                                                                                                                                                      costly. In general, 
  I get through the ebay portion of it all OK. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      just take my time listing 
  items.

                                                                                                                                                                                      PayPal is a slightly different matter. I see PayPal as tricky, 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      invasive and unpredictable in what their, "system," does. And ebay 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      tries to tell every seller/buyer now that they, "must," use 
                                                                                                                                                                                      PayPal. 
  Overall, PayPal can work flawlessly and very efficiently, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      and that is what 
  pleases many, some of who have already answered here.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The 
  recommendation of a separate bank account dedicated to PayPal is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      a good 
  one. I had used a credit card, set up with PayPal to pay for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      purchased 
  items for a long time; never had a problem. The trouble 
                                                                                                                                                                                      began when I 
  wanted to sell a few odd things several months 
                                                                                                                                                                                      ago. Almost from the 
  outset, PayPal seemed to required I tie my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      selling to a checking account. 
  I eventually gave in when someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                      paid for a book I sold and their payment 
  got stuck in PayPal. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                      only way I could get my money out was to tie in a 
  checking account 
                                                                                                                                                                                      and then transfer the money. (I used an almost empty 
  checking 
                                                                                                                                                                                      account we were going to drop anyway, so there was/is very little 
  in it)

                                                                                                                                                                                      The next problem came when my wife bought some low cost item and 
  paid 
                                                                                                                                                                                      via PayPal. Little did she know, PayPal was set to always take money 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      from the, "new," checking account. We intentionally left very little 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      money in that account, so the PayPal withdraw went into us as an 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      overdraft. Fortunately, I was watching and caught it in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      time. Example: 
  if you leave $100 in your PayPal dedicated checking 
                                                                                                                                                                                      account and someone in 
  your family buys something on ebay for $150, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      PayPal will attempt to take 
  it from your checking account leaving you 
                                                                                                                                                                                      with an overdraft. They say that 
  won't happen, but it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      does...absolutely; and they don't care what your 
  account balance is.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I now have this personal policy: if I buy something 
  on ebay, I pay 
                                                                                                                                                                                      by finding the, "more funding options," small print buried 
  in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      PayPal process, click on it and then select credit card. When I 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      sell something via PayPal, I almost immediately, "withdraw," it from 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      the PayPal account into my checking account. When they force sales 
                                                                                                                                                                                      to 
  private checking accounts I think PayPal avoids credit card fees 
                                                                                                                                                                                      and make 
  more money, so they are very slick about suckering customers 
                                                                                                                                                                                      to their way 
  of doing things.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry for the long reply. In general, ebay/PalPay 
  works, but be very 
                                                                                                                                                                                      careful.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis, who will never trust 
  PayPal.

                                                                                                                                                                                      At 08:54 PM 6/7/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I need to pick some 
  brains. I have not sold anything on eBay since
                                                                                                                                                                                      >they mandated that 
  sellers must use some form of electronic payment
                                                                                                                                                                                      >system. I never liked 
  the idea of unknown people being able to tap into
                                                                                                                                                                                      >my bank 
  account.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Unfortunately I've been out of work since February and, with 
  more
                                                                                                                                                                                      >than half of my unemployment benefits used up, I need to 
  consider
                                                                                                                                                                                      >generating some additional income. So far I am not in default 
  on any
                                                                                                                                                                                      >bills but don't want to wait until that point to do something. 
  The job
                                                                                                                                                                                      >searches aren't being very fruitful.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I'd like to here 
  from people that are selling on eBay about their
                                                                                                                                                                                      >experiences with 
  Paypal, etc. Not necessarily professional dealers, but
                                                                                                                                                                                      >casual sellers 
  like me. I have various miscellaneous odds and ends - not
                                                                                                                                                                                      >necessarily 
  trains - that I can dispose of to hopefully pick up some
                                                                                                                                                                                      >additional 
  income until things turn around for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > If this is not a proper 
  subject for discussion in the open forum
                                                                                                                                                                                      >than contact me off 
  list.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >--
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rick Jones

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10889
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Ebay doesn't actually restrict you to Pay Pal as a 
payment option on your auction page.  You can also, or instead, accept 
credit cards.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Regarding the seperate account just to buy a $5.00 
box car.  I have never had a seperate account.  Got over two thousand 
transactions.  I notice that if I sell, money goes into my "Pay Pal" 
account (where as far as I know they pay no interest).  Perhaps there are 
automatic ways to move the money to a personal account.  I recall that if 
you do make a transfer, there is yet another fee but I'm not sure - never had 
enough money stay in the Pay Pal account to be able to keep any!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Overall, I think ebay and PayPal are rather easy 
from a buyer's perspective.  Perhaps too easy!  And too much like you 
aren't spending "real" money.  It's just point and click - and 
voila!.  Of course, that's good for buyers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Regarding the legality of not allowing other 
mediums of exchange.  That is an interesting point and I'm sure one that 
ebay is aware of.  The first thing I think of is what it says right on U.S. 
money "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private".  But 
you aren't paying ebay or Pay Pal for the item.  Ebay and Pay Pal are only 
intermediaries.  But for the fees you pay directly TO those companies might 
be another thing?  Anyone thinking of paying them in pennies?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 4:35 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 
eBay/PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All:

                                                                                                                                                                                      Some additional ebay thoughts: The changes in eBay over the 
  past year are somewhat saddening, as I have seen some old familiar sellers 
  drop out. Searching through the eBay listings was how I gained much of my 
  education in vintage HO, though simple observation, asking questions and of 
  course, buying. It was like walking theorugh the aisles of a train show with 
  tens of thousands of items, 24/7. I gained some new friends, both local and 
  distant, other major collectors in my areas of interest. (Now we have hidden 
  ID's.)

                                                                                                                                                                                      eBay's long term policy as repoprted in the past year or so in 
  the NY Times and financial media like Maria Bartiromo's Sunday TV show, is to 
  diminish the importance of on-line auctions (that built the company) and go to 
  a direct sales plan like Amazon's because "many people find the aution 
  experience difficult" or some such blather. An oversimplifaction perhaps, but 
  it reminds me of the same nearsighteness that lead US Steel to focus on "money 
  management" rather than making steel which lead to US Steel's downfall as they 
  ingnored their basic product. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      No doubt, the self-serving managers at 
  eBay will point to the drop off in traditional eBay activity as confirming 
  "difficulty with the auction experience" or use the old standby excuse for 
  corporate ineptitude like "it's the economy" instead of faulting the complex 
  new payment system. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Forgetting that the new system discourages many 
  who like me, who never wished to have a second hobby of accounting; monitoring 
  a number of seperate accounts (paypal, credit, or checking) just to buy an old 
  $5.00 Varney boxcar. In the new process, they are generating more profits from 
  seller's as well, to justify their generous salaries and corporate bureaucracy 
  that is far larger than five years ago.

                                                                                                                                                                                      There are a number of eBay 
  sellers, major sellers too, like Keith Wise (Wiseman on eBay) who still have 
  refused to accept Paypal on principal and state so in big red leters right in 
  their item descriptions. And although I am rusty in remembering my old 
  business law coursework, but possibly eBay's tolerance may be because their 
  "PayPal Only" payment policy requirement may be in violation of the Uniform 
  Commercial Code, which all states have adopted in some manner since the 
  1930's(?) and governs virtually all interstate business transactions, or may 
  violate some specific state's statutes. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Many eBay sellers will still 
  accept alternative payment such as US Postal Money Orders, although you have 
  go through the cumbersome process of asking before the auction is over. That 
  is why so many more listings the seller specifically say "ask me about any 
  options" or words to that effect before the bid closes. Because as some 
  sellers have communicated, eBay limits their "free speech."

                                                                                                                                                                                      I still pay 
  direct when I am able, and it is still possible to leave feedback if you do 
  not pay through "The PayPal System."

                                                                                                                                                                                      It's just that eBay is not as much 
  fun anymore. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'll still be there, but I am lucky that my area 
  (Northeast) still has a number of train shows almost every month within an 
  easy drive, and although some have flounderd, other are flourishing, mabey the 
  small sellers will return rather than endure the hassles on eBay.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay 
  W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi 
  Gerald,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I've never had that problem with paypal, so am 
  unaware of any situation, sometimes I don't leave feedback right away, 
  and often as a seller, I don't get feedback right away either, and have 
  never had a problem with paypal holding payments, sometimes I never recieve 
  feedback from a buyer, just the nature of the beast I 
  guess....... .....:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >  Click 
  HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 
  to answer life's two most important questions! 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 3:38:09 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  eBay/PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > There is a 
  new catch many wont be aware yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I bought a model RR item 
  some time ago, and hadnt yet left feedback as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > it was ( by my request) 
  not sent to me directly but to a friend who will 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > forward it to me. 
  Last week I received a message from the seller asking 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > if anything is 
  wrong , as I hadnt left feedback.... I explained to him 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > that I havent 
  had seen the item. He then told me that Paypals new policy 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > is that 
  the payment is held back for THREE WEEKS if there is no feedback 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  left. As I had confidence that the item is as described, and my friend 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > had confirmed that he had received it, I left positive feedback as I 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > felt it would be unfair to have the seller suffer an disadvantage 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > because of my shipping procedure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > However I feel 
  this practice is an extreme abuse of their dominating 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > position. First 
  they have forced sellers to accept Paypal ( actually a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > big advantage 
  for me) , now they dictate unfavorable terms at will. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Wonder what 
  they will come up with next? Unfortunately, I see no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > alternative to 
  eBay/ Paypal; neither now nor in the forseeable future.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10890
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I will let you all in on a little secret..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have my allowance (by my wife) checking account on my paypal account, but that is my personal preference. Not the secret, but the following is:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I also have a Paypal (Mastercard) check card. I use it just like a credit card. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In fact, I use it as my back-up funding through paypal. Sort of a never ending loop. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      You do not have to have a bank account linked to Paypal if you have a credit card backing it. I could very easily now remove my bank account and have my paypal account backed by my credit card, which is is my Paypal Mastercard "check" card. I chose not to, because I sometimes have funds in my allowance account from which i need to draw from.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      A little glitch, on their end, if you ask me..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 9:40:40 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: eBay/PayPal

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Ebay doesn't actually restrict you to Pay Pal as a payment option on your auction page.  You can also, or instead, accept credit cards.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Regarding the seperate account just to buy a $5.00 box car.  I have never had a seperate account.  Got over two thousand transactions.  I notice that if I sell, money goes into my "Pay Pal" account (where as far as I know they pay no interest).  Perhaps there are automatic ways to move the money to a personal account.  I recall that if you do make a transfer, there is yet another fee but I'm not sure - never had enough money stay in the Pay Pal account to be able to keep any!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Overall, I think ebay and PayPal are rather easy from a buyer's perspective.  Perhaps too easy!  And too much like you aren't spending "real" money.  It's just point and click - and voila!.  Of course, that's good for buyers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Regarding the legality of not allowing other mediums of exchange.  That is an interesting point and I'm sure one that ebay is aware of.  The first thing I think of is what it says right on U.S. money "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private".  But you aren't paying ebay or Pay Pal for the item.  Ebay and Pay Pal are only intermediaries.  But for the fees you pay directly TO those companies might be another thing?  Anyone thinking of paying them in pennies?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 4:35 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: eBay/PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All:

                                                                                                                                                                                      Some additional ebay thoughts: The changes in eBay over the past year are somewhat saddening, as I have seen some old familiar sellers drop out. Searching through the eBay listings was how I gained much of my education in vintage HO, though simple observation, asking questions and of course, buying. It was like walking theorugh the aisles of a train show with tens of thousands of items, 24/7. I gained some new friends, both local and distant, other major collectors in my areas of interest. (Now we have hidden ID's.)

                                                                                                                                                                                      eBay's long term policy as repoprted in the past year or so in the NY Times and financial media like Maria Bartiromo's Sunday TV show, is to diminish the importance of on-line auctions (that built the company) and go to a direct sales plan like Amazon's because "many people find the aution experience difficult" or some such blather. An oversimplifaction perhaps, but it reminds me of the same nearsighteness that lead
 US Steel to focus on "money management" rather than making steel which lead to US Steel's downfall as they ingnored their basic product. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      No doubt, the self-serving managers at eBay will point to the drop off in traditional eBay activity as confirming "difficulty with the auction experience" or use the old standby excuse for corporate ineptitude like "it's the economy" instead of faulting the complex new payment system. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Forgetting that the new system discourages many who like me, who never wished to have a second hobby of accounting; monitoring a number of seperate accounts (paypal, credit, or checking) just to buy an old $5.00 Varney boxcar. In the new process, they are generating more profits from seller's as well, to justify their generous salaries and corporate bureaucracy that is far larger than five years ago.

                                                                                                                                                                                      There are a number of eBay sellers, major sellers too, like Keith Wise (Wiseman on eBay) who still have refused to
 accept Paypal on principal and state so in big red leters right in their item descriptions. And although I am rusty in remembering my old business law coursework, but possibly eBay's tolerance may be because their "PayPal Only" payment policy requirement may be in violation of the Uniform Commercial Code, which all states have adopted in some manner since the 1930's(?) and governs virtually all interstate business transactions, or may violate some specific state's statutes. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Many eBay sellers will still accept alternative payment such as US Postal Money Orders, although you have go through the cumbersome process of asking before the auction is over. That is why so many more listings the seller specifically say "ask me about any options" or words to that effect before the bid closes. Because as some sellers have communicated, eBay limits their "free speech."

                                                                                                                                                                                      I still pay direct when I am able, and it is still possible to leave feedback if
 you do not pay through "The PayPal System."

                                                                                                                                                                                      It's just that eBay is not as much fun anymore. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'll still be there, but I am lucky that my area (Northeast) still has a number of train shows almost every month within an easy drive, and although some have flounderd, other are flourishing, mabey the small sellers will return rather than endure the hassles on eBay.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Gerald,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I've never had that problem with paypal, so am unaware of any situation, sometimes I don't leave feedback right away, and often as a seller, I don't get feedback right away either, and have never had a problem with paypal holding payments, sometimes I never recieve feedback from a buyer, just the nature of the beast I
 guess....... .....:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 3:38:09 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay/PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > There is a new catch many wont be aware yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I bought a model RR item some time ago, and hadnt yet left feedback as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > it was ( by my request) not sent to me directly but to a friend who will 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > forward it to me. Last
 week I received a message from the seller asking 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > if anything is wrong , as I hadnt left feedback.... I explained to him 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > that I havent had seen the item. He then told me that Paypals new policy 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > is that the payment is held back for THREE WEEKS if there is no feedback 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > left. As I had confidence that the item is as described, and my friend 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > had confirmed that he had received it, I left positive feedback as I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > felt it would be unfair to have the seller suffer an disadvantage 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > because of my shipping procedure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > However I feel this practice is an extreme abuse of their dominating 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > position. First they have forced sellers to accept Paypal ( actually a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > big advantage for me) , now they dictate unfavorable terms at will. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Wonder what they will come up with next? Unfortunately, I see no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > alternative to eBay/ Paypal; neither now nor in the forseeable
 future.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      >


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10891
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I haven't left feedback in a long time and nobody seems to care--gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 12:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay/PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There is a new catch many wont be aware yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I bought a model RR item some time ago, and hadnt yet left feedback as
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> it was ( by my request) not sent to me directly but to a friend who will
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> forward it to me. Last week I received a message from the seller asking
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> if anything is wrong , as I hadnt left feedback.... I explained to him
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that I havent had seen the item. He then told me that Paypals new policy
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> is that the payment is held back for THREE WEEKS if there is no feedback
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> left. As I had confidence that the item is as described, and my friend
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> had confirmed that he had received it, I left positive feedback as I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> felt it would be unfair to have the seller suffer an disadvantage
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> because of my shipping procedure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> However I feel this practice is an extreme abuse of their dominating
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> position. First they have forced sellers to accept Paypal ( actually a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> big advantage for me) , now they dictate unfavorable terms at will.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Wonder what they will come up with next?  Unfortunately, I see no
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> alternative to eBay/ Paypal; neither now nor in the forseeable future.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.56/2161 - Release Date: 06/07/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
17:53:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10892
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I had heard of a simular event once before, but for me, I have never had it happen.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have sold at least 4000 items. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I can only think that it might have something to do with the sellers track record or just a made up story to try to pry out feedback numbers.  As for me, I do not worry about the numbers, I try my best every time and don't worry about the rest.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 12:53:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay/PayPal

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I haven't left feedback in a long time and nobody seems to care--gj

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 12:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay/PayPal

                                                                                                                                                                                      > There is a new catch many wont be aware yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I bought a model RR item some time ago, and hadnt yet left feedback as
                                                                                                                                                                                      > it was ( by my request) not sent to me directly but to a friend who will
                                                                                                                                                                                      > forward it to me. Last week I received a message from the seller asking
                                                                                                                                                                                      > if anything is wrong , as I hadnt left feedback.... I explained to him
                                                                                                                                                                                      > that I havent had seen the item. He then told me that Paypals new policy
                                                                                                                                                                                      > is
 that the payment is held back for THREE WEEKS if there is no feedback
                                                                                                                                                                                      > left. As I had confidence that the item is as described, and my friend
                                                                                                                                                                                      > had confirmed that he had received it, I left positive feedback as I
                                                                                                                                                                                      > felt it would be unfair to have the seller suffer an disadvantage
                                                                                                                                                                                      > because of my shipping procedure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > However I feel this practice is an extreme abuse of their dominating
                                                                                                                                                                                      > position. First they have forced sellers to accept Paypal ( actually a
                                                                                                                                                                                      > big advantage for me) , now they dictate unfavorable terms at will.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Wonder what they will come up with next? Unfortunately, I see no
                                                                                                                                                                                      > alternative to eBay/ Paypal; neither now nor in the forseeable future.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
 -

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.56/2161 - Release Date: 06/07/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      17:53:00


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10893
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I had heard of a simular event once before, but for me, I have never had it happen.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have sold at least 4000 items. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I can only think that it might have something to do with the sellers track record or just a made up story to try to pry out feedback numbers.  As for me, I do not worry about the numbers, I try my best every time and don't worry about the rest.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      I agree with Sean that this is one those BS stories that are always popping up. It doesn't even sound reasonable in my wildest dreams. Nor have I seen it in the ebay rules (and I went though them pretty thoroughly within the past three months). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I buy fairly regularly on ebay and have never had any seller tell me this. I have had emails from sellers asking me to leave feedback where upon I advise them of MY policy of not leaving feedback unless feedback has been left by them. This comes from my firm, and unshakable, belief that once the item is paid for, the buyer has done his part and the seller should leave feedback. Now I have heard all the reasons why I am wrong and that is not the point of this thread and I will not discuss it here. What is the point is most sellers do not bother to leave feedback even then. So, if they needed feedback from the buyer (me), they would have to leave feedback so I would then leave feedback for them so they would get their money. Only one seller has ever done so.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
BTW, for those sellers that do leave feedback, I always leave feedback for them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Saint Francis, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10894
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      This sounds like a ploy to get you to leave feedback.  I know of no seller, including me, that will ship the item before payment is received. Payment by paypal from the buyer to the seller is almost instant, the buyer receives email verification that the payment has been made almost instantly as well.  For me that is the major reason to use paypal Purely for the convenience. I usually shipped an item paid by paypal the same day if possible at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I never leave negative feedback for a seller.  If I can't say something positive I say nothing at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      And by the way sellers can no longer retaliate by leaving bad feedback for buyer's bad feedback.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Mon, 6/8/09, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay/PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Monday, June 8, 2009, 12:38 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      There is a new catch many wont be aware yet.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I bought a model RR item some time ago, and hadnt yet left feedback as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      it was ( by my request) not sent to me directly but to a friend who will 
                                                                                                                                                                                      forward it to me. Last week I received a message from the seller asking 
                                                                                                                                                                                      if anything is wrong , as I hadnt left feedback.... I explained to him 
                                                                                                                                                                                      that I havent had seen the item. He then told me that Paypals new policy 
                                                                                                                                                                                      is that the payment is held back for THREE WEEKS if there is no feedback 
                                                                                                                                                                                      left. As I had confidence that the item is as described, and my friend 
                                                                                                                                                                                      had confirmed that he had received it, I left positive feedback as I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      felt it would be unfair to have the seller suffer an disadvantage 
                                                                                                                                                                                      because of my shipping procedure.

                                                                                                                                                                                      However I feel this practice is an extreme abuse of their dominating 
                                                                                                                                                                                      position. First they have forced sellers to accept Paypal ( actually a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      big advantage for me) , now
 they dictate unfavorable terms at will.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Wonder what they will come up with next?  Unfortunately, I see no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      alternative to eBay/ Paypal; neither now nor in the forseeable future.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gerold



                                                                                                                                                                                      ------------------------------------

                                                                                                                                                                                      Yahoo! Groups Links

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10895
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      While this may seem off-topic I think it is dead on for those of us who are collectors -- eBay is a fantastic source of all kinds of old stuff and I am thankful for it. Just remember, it wasn't the model railroad community that made eBay change its policies. I have been an eBay and PayPal user for nearly 12 years and have participated in several feedback groups. The word I received straight from the horse's mouth was that model railroaders are, by and large, a very honest lot. As a seller, of my 12 "bad transactions" only two were model railroading related. However, of my 12 bad transactions, 100% of them were non-PayPal transactions. I rarely accept non-PayPal payments except for obvious railroad collector's items for older modelers (the group least-likely to use PayPal) and have had only one bad transaction from a model railroader in five years. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The price we pay for access to eBay (for me at least) is worth it. Perhaps not for everyone, but it certainly works for most of us.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
And by the way, if you have a bank account attached to PayPal you can push the money over to it from any sales you make with no additional fees. Takes about three days but it works every time. I have been doing this since 1999.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <hspanier@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean - I also sell alot on eBay (under the name lionelsuperotrack)and the PayPal fees certainly rankle me. I have been selling for 12 years or so. The PayPal fees are in the 3 1/2 to 5% as you identify. It is alot. I had no problem with postal money orders, checks etc. I certainly liked that option.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Regards, Mike Spanier
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10896
						From: trainliker
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The hold can be real.  I had a seller tell me that once.  I just looked it up.  A key phrase is "small percentage of cases".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I always leave feedback.  Some sellers use this as confirmation that the item got there so they can "close" the transaction on their own "books".  I have had one case I can remember of a seller mentioning a Pay Pal hold.  And several asking "did you get it OK?" if I was even a few days tardy leaving feedback (its a pretty good ebayer that follows up, or perhaps they were on "hold"?)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You can read about it at http://pages.ebay.com/sell/update08/rewardsfaq/index.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Here is the main thing you will find there...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
****************************************
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Occasional holds on payment
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
27. Which sellers will have their payments held? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In a small percentage of cases where it has been determined the risk of dissatisfied buyers is higher, PayPal may delay release of the payment funds to the seller until the buyer has left a positive feedback or 21 days have passed without a dispute, claim, chargeback or reversal filed on that transaction. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
To determine if a transaction may have a higher risk of dissatisfied buyers, eBay reports to PayPal a number of factors, including but not limited to: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Seller's % Positive Feedback in the last 30 days 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Seller's Detailed Seller Ratings in the last 30 days 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Final price for the item 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Shipping & handling fee 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Seller's tenure as an eBay member 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Seller's total number of Feedback 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
****************************************
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> This sounds like a ploy to get you to leave feedback.  I know of no seller, including me, that will ship the item before payment is received. Payment by paypal from the buyer to the seller is almost instant, the buyer receives email verification that the payment has been made almost instantly as well.  For me that is the major reason to use paypal Purely for the convenience. I usually shipped an item paid by paypal the same day if possible at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I never leave negative feedback for a seller.  If I can't say something positive I say nothing at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> And by the way sellers can no longer retaliate by leaving bad feedback for buyer's bad feedback.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- On Mon, 6/8/09, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay/PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Monday, June 8, 2009, 12:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There is a new catch many wont be aware yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I bought a model RR item some time ago, and hadnt yet left feedback as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> it was ( by my request) not sent to me directly but to a friend who will 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> forward it to me. Last week I received a message from the seller asking 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> if anything is wrong , as I hadnt left feedback.... I explained to him 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that I havent had seen the item. He then told me that Paypals new policy 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> is that the payment is held back for THREE WEEKS if there is no feedback 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> left. As I had confidence that the item is as described, and my friend 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> had confirmed that he had received it, I left positive feedback as I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> felt it would be unfair to have the seller suffer an disadvantage 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> because of my shipping procedure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> However I feel this practice is an extreme abuse of their dominating 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> position. First they have forced sellers to accept Paypal ( actually a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> big advantage for me) , now they dictate unfavorable terms at will.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Wonder what they will come up with next?  Unfortunately, I see no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> alternative to eBay/ Paypal; neither now nor in the forseeable future.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10897
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean Naylor wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Rick,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I know this is off-topic, but I have tremendous experience both with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> buying and selling. PLEASE Email me off-line and I will go into it with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> extensive detail. It is a tremendous sourse of supplimental income.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          Thank you. Any advice you can give me is appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10898
						From: wboeschjr
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Athearn Super Loc
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a athearn super gear F7A and a F7b unit that is in A1 conditon
                                                                                                                                                                                      
for sale. Anyone interested make reasonable offer off list,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It is hand painted in UP colors
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Bill
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10899
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: I. D . help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 In looking through Ebay I came across something I need some idea as to a 
partial ID. The item is  230347586586  13 HO Scale Daylight Metal 
Passenger cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           The seller says metal 
Varney passenger cars. I will agree with the seller that the coaches, 
observation and  one combine are Varney all the all metal Daylight 
passenger cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            It is the 2 baggage 
cars in the top row and the first combine on the left in the second row that I 
am asking about. I wish there were more and closer pictures of those particular 
cars. The seller probably can't help as he says all are Varney metal cars. Again 
the pictures don't show if the cars I'm asking about are all metal. Varney 
didn't make all metal baggage cars or that "odd" looking combine
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           From what I can tell 
they look like "shorties" just like the Varney, the paint job, if not factory, 
very good and I ( along with good friend Ray F W ) have eliminated American 
Beauty that have metal sides (wood roof and floor) and Daylight paint 
scheme. Their baggage cars different especially the doors and windows in the 
doors.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Open for ideas. I'm not 
looking to bid as I feel to high but would like to know who made the cars I have 
pointed out. HELP.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10900
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Super Loc
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "wboeschjr" <wboeschjr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have a athearn super gear F7A and a F7b unit that is in A1 conditon
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> for sale. Anyone interested make reasonable offer off list,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It is hand painted in UP colors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Bill
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      I did reply, off-list, as soon as the notice came up.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Make sure your SPAM filter didn't grab it!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10901
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: I. D . help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  
  

 
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

  
  
  

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     In looking through
Ebay I came across something I need some idea as to a partial ID. The
item is  230347586586  13 HO Scale Daylight Metal Passenger cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           The seller says metal Varney
passenger cars. I will agree with the seller that the coaches,
observation and  one combine are Varney all the all metal Daylight
passenger cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            It is the 2 baggage cars in
the top row and the first combine on the left in the second row that I
am asking about. I wish there were more and closer pictures of those
particular cars. The seller probably can't help as he says all are
Varney metal cars. Again the pictures don't show if the cars I'm asking
about are all metal. Varney didn't make all metal baggage cars or that
"odd" looking combine
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           From what I can tell they look
like "shorties" just like the Varney, the paint job, if not factory,
very good and I ( along with good friend Ray F W ) have eliminated
American Beauty that have metal sides (wood roof and floor) and
Daylight paint scheme. Their baggage cars different especially the
doors and windows in the doors.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Open for ideas. I'm not looking
to bid as I feel to high but would like to know who made the cars I
have pointed out. HELP.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the baggage cars  might be Tenshodos roof ventilators are the
giveaway... ... here are links to  Tenshodo auctions with good
pictures: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/HO-SCALE-BRASS-TENSHODO-SP-DAYLIGHT-7-CAR-PASSENGER-SET_W0QQitemZ200349457563
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-TENSHODO-SOUTHERN-PACIFIC-LOT-OF-5-CARS-DINER-ETC_W0QQitemZ300320139850
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10902
						From: bayerw@comcast.net
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: I. D . help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Any chance they might be Blue Line?
                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter



                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 6:26:20 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] I. D . help

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
            

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 In looking through Ebay I came across something I need some idea as to a 
partial ID. The item is  230347586586  13 HO Scale Daylight Metal 
Passenger cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           The seller says metal 
Varney passenger cars. I will agree with the seller that the coaches, 
observation and  one combine are Varney all the all metal Daylight 
passenger cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            It is the 2 baggage 
cars in the top row and the first combine on the left in the second row that I 
am asking about. I wish there were more and closer pictures of those particular 
cars. The seller probably can't help as he says all are Varney metal cars. Again 
the pictures don't show if the cars I'm asking about are all metal. Varney 
didn't make all metal baggage cars or that "odd" looking combine
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           From what I can tell 
they look like "shorties" just like the Varney, the paint job, if not factory, 
very good and I ( along with good friend Ray F W ) have eliminated American 
Beauty that have metal sides (wood roof and floor) and Daylight paint 
scheme. Their baggage cars different especially the doors and windows in the 
doors.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Open for ideas. I'm not 
looking to bid as I feel to high but would like to know who made the cars I have 
pointed out. HELP.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
	
	




	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10903
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: I. D . help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Don't think Blue Line. 
Their "shorty" cars were only three types I know of and I don't think a 
baggage but will still check to be sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I think Gerold Eckl is on to 
something with the Tenshoda he cited. I just got in and will go to the site he 
cites.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for your 
response
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  bayerw@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 7:05 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I. D . 
help
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Any 
  chance they might be Blue Line?
                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter



                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original 
  Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 
  Monday, June 8, 2009 6:26:20 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] 
  I. D . help

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  


                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
   In looking through Ebay I came across something I need some idea as to a 
  partial ID. The item is  230347586586  13 HO Scale Daylight 
  Metal Passenger cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           The seller says metal 
  Varney passenger cars. I will agree with the seller that the coaches, 
  observation and  one combine are Varney all the all metal Daylight 
  passenger cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            It is the 2 
  baggage cars in the top row and the first combine on the left in the second 
  row that I am asking about. I wish there were more and closer pictures of 
  those particular cars. The seller probably can't help as he says all are 
  Varney metal cars. Again the pictures don't show if the cars I'm asking about 
  are all metal. Varney didn't make all metal baggage cars or that "odd" looking 
  combine
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           From what I can 
  tell they look like "shorties" just like the Varney, the paint job, if not 
  factory, very good and I ( along with good friend Ray F W ) have eliminated 
  American Beauty that have metal sides (wood roof and floor) and Daylight 
  paint scheme. Their baggage cars different especially the doors and windows in 
  the doors.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Open for ideas. I'm not 
  looking to bid as I feel to high but would like to know who made the cars I 
  have pointed out. HELP.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10904
						From: bayerw@comcast.net
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: I. D . help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I agree, Jim. The baggage do look like Tenshodo. Too bad the seller didn't provide close-ups of the cars! I guess an interested buyer could ask.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter



                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 7:30:36 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I. D . help

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
            

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Don't think Blue Line. 
Their "shorty" cars were only three types I know of and I don't think a 
baggage but will still check to be sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I think Gerold Eckl is on to 
something with the Tenshoda he cited. I just got in and will go to the site he 
cites.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for your 
response
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  bayerw@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 7:05 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I. D . 
help
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Any 
  chance they might be Blue Line?
                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter



                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original 
  Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 
  Monday, June 8, 2009 6:26:20 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] 
  I. D . help

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  


                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
   In looking through Ebay I came across something I need some idea as to a 
  partial ID. The item is  230347586586  13 HO Scale Daylight 
  Metal Passenger cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           The seller says metal 
  Varney passenger cars. I will agree with the seller that the coaches, 
  observation and  one combine are Varney all the all metal Daylight 
  passenger cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            It is the 2 
  baggage cars in the top row and the first combine on the left in the second 
  row that I am asking about. I wish there were more and closer pictures of 
  those particular cars. The seller probably can't help as he says all are 
  Varney metal cars. Again the pictures don't show if the cars I'm asking about 
  are all metal. Varney didn't make all metal baggage cars or that "odd" looking 
  combine
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           From what I can 
  tell they look like "shorties" just like the Varney, the paint job, if not 
  factory, very good and I ( along with good friend Ray F W ) have eliminated 
  American Beauty that have metal sides (wood roof and floor) and Daylight 
  paint scheme. Their baggage cars different especially the doors and windows in 
  the doors.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Open for ideas. I'm not 
  looking to bid as I feel to high but would like to know who made the cars I 
  have pointed out. HELP.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
	
	




	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10905
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: I. D . help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                         Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              Just got 
in and looked at the pictures of sets you sent. You probably are in bed and 
sleeping by now, or at least close to it. I think you are exactly right about 
the baggage cars being Tenshodo. I see the roof vents you are talking about and 
the cars are all metal ( albeit brass). I thought the car on the left of the 
second row , at first quick glance,  was a combine but I see it is actually 
three small square windows  and 6 rectangle windows. While it doesn't match 
any of the cars in the two groups you sent I think I see the 
roof vents (barely) on it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              Boy 
you have good eyes.    Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 6:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I. D . 
help
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      jim heckard wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
     In looking through Ebay I came across something I need some idea as to 
    a partial ID. The item is  230347586586  13 HO Scale Daylight 
    Metal Passenger cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                           The seller says metal 
    Varney passenger cars. I will agree with the seller that the coaches, 
    observation and  one combine are Varney all the all metal Daylight 
    passenger cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            It is the 2 
    baggage cars in the top row and the first combine on the left in the second 
    row that I am asking about. I wish there were more and closer pictures of 
    those particular cars. The seller probably can't help as he says all are 
    Varney metal cars. Again the pictures don't show if the cars I'm asking 
    about are all metal. Varney didn't make all metal baggage cars or that "odd" 
    looking combine
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                           From what I can 
    tell they look like "shorties" just like the Varney, the paint job, if not 
    factory, very good and I ( along with good friend Ray F W ) have eliminated 
    American Beauty that have metal sides (wood roof and floor) and 
    Daylight paint scheme. Their baggage cars different especially the doors and 
    windows in the doors.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                           Open for ideas. I'm 
    not looking to bid as I feel to high but would like to know who made the 
    cars I have pointed out. HELP.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
    Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      the baggage cars  might be Tenshodos roof ventilators are the 
  giveaway... ... here are links to  Tenshodo auctions with good pictures: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay. com/HO-SCALE- BRASS-TENSHODO- SP-DAYLIGHT- 7-CAR-PASSENGER- SET_W0QQitemZ200 349457563
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay. com/RARE- TENSHODO- SOUTHERN- PACIFIC-LOT- OF-5-CARS- DINER-ETC_ W0QQitemZ3003201 39850

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10906
						From: William Boesch
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Super Loc
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 
I did not get your  reply. I did get anyother reply.  I do not have spam filter
                                                                                                                                                                                      
set on.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Bill
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: idioticyahoo@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:42:20 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Super Loc

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "wboeschjr" <wboeschjr@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I have a athearn super gear F7A and a F7b unit that is in A1 conditon
                                                                                                                                                                                      > for sale. Anyone interested make reasonable offer off list,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > It is hand painted in UP colors
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Bill
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      I did reply, off-list, as soon as the notice came up.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Make sure your SPAM filter didn't grab it!

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dave


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      





                                                                                                                                                                                      Windows Live™ SkyDrive™: Get 25 GB of free online storage.   Get it on your BlackBerry or iPhone. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10907
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal-using savings acct.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I really don't know about using a savings account, but I somehow 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
suspect it might not work.  Generally though, I just do not know 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
about that possibility.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 11:30 PM 6/7/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >Dennis Thompson wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > The recommendation of a separate bank account dedicated to PayPal is
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > a good one.  I had used a credit card, set up with PayPal to pay for
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > purchased items for a long time;  never had a problem.  The trouble
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > began when I wanted to sell a few odd things several months
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ago.  Almost from the outset, PayPal seemed to required I tie my
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > selling to a checking account.  I eventually gave in when someone
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > paid for a book I sold and their payment got stuck in PayPal.  The
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > only way I could get my money out was to tie in a checking account
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > and then transfer the money.  (I used an almost empty checking
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > account we were going to drop anyway, so there was/is very little in it)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Does it have to be a checking account? Savings account won't work?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>--
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                    Rick Jones 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10908
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 6/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal-using savings acct.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis Thompson wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > I really don't know about using a savings account, but I somehow 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> suspect it might not work.  Generally though, I just do not know 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> about that possibility.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm just hesitant about setting up a second checking account, with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
monthly fees, that I'm not going to be using regularly. Savings accounts 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
are usually cheaper.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10909
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 6/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal-using savings acct.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Rick,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      My PNC Bank checking account is free. I have three accounts there and my "Buisness" account that has had ~$6.50 in it for nearly 4-5 years by now. The ballence has never changed. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Ain't bin doin much bisness I spose.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2009 1:33:54 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay/PayPal-using savings acct.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis Thompson wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                       > I really don't know about using a savings account, but I somehow 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > suspect it might not work. Generally though, I just do not know 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > about that possibility.

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm just hesitant about setting up a second checking account, with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      monthly fees, that I'm not going to be using regularly. Savings accounts 
                                                                                                                                                                                      are usually cheaper.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -- 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Rick Jones


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10910
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 6/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal-using savings acct.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Banks prefer that you not use a savings account where you are  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
frequently moving funds in and out. I have my separated account in my  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Credit Union, where there are no fees for any account.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Perhaps you could set-up the account in a local Credit Union, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
transfer funds to it from your current banking accounts ??? Are  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
electronic transfers free with your bank ???
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If I didn't have the password/override on my main accounts, I could  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
just transfer funds between the accounts over the Web.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Jun 9, 2009, at 12:33 AM, Rick Jones wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dennis Thompson wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I really don't know about using a savings account, but I somehow
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> suspect it might not work.  Generally though, I just do not know
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> about that possibility.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     I'm just hesitant about setting up a second checking account, with
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> monthly fees, that I'm not going to be using regularly. Savings  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> accounts
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> are usually cheaper.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10911
						From: erieberk
						Date: 6/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: I. D . help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, Besides Blue Line only producing three types of shorty cars, as far as I know, I believe they offered them only in Union Pacific, and if that's the case we can completely rule out Blue Line as having these S.P. cars in this eBay ad.  Yep, looks like Gerold has nailed it with Tenshodo.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Walter,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Don't think Blue Line. Their "shorty" cars were only three types I know of and I don't think a baggage but will still check to be sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     I think Gerold Eckl is on to something with the Tenshodo he cited. I just got in and will go to the site he cites.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Thanks for your response
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                 Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: bayerw@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Cc: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 7:05 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I. D . help
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Any chance they might be Blue Line?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 6:26:20 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: [vintageHO] I. D . help
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                  In looking through Ebay I came across something I need some idea as to a partial ID. The item is  230347586586  13 HO Scale Daylight Metal Passenger cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        The seller says metal Varney passenger cars. I will agree with the seller that the coaches, observation and  one combine are Varney all the all metal Daylight passenger cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         It is the 2 baggage cars in the top row and the first combine on the left in the second row that I am asking about. I wish there were more and closer pictures of those particular cars. The seller probably can't help as he says all are Varney metal cars. Again the pictures don't show if the cars I'm asking about are all metal. Varney didn't make all metal baggage cars or that "odd" looking combine
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        From what I can tell they look like "shorties" just like the Varney, the paint job, if not factory, very good and I ( along with good friend Ray F W ) have eliminated American Beauty that have metal sides (wood roof and floor) and Daylight paint scheme. Their baggage cars different especially the doors and windows in the doors.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        Open for ideas. I'm not looking to bid as I feel to high but would like to know who made the cars I have pointed out. HELP.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10912
						From: erieberk
						Date: 6/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All, With this long thread in discussions on preferred payment methods used for eBay purchases, as mostly a Buyer, I've preferred to refrain from getting into the middle of this, especially as I continue reading more input on it.  I would like to point out though, that there is really no "safety" in using any method, regardless of who's (eBay's, Seller or Buyer) payment methods are used.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Case in point -- I came across a most enlightening message received last night on the Delaware & Hudson List group, which details how scammers have even thought up how to skirt the PayPal process and steal a Buyer's money.  These con-artists must stay up at night figuring these scams out.  While this is now small-time, you can bet that as this word gets out, that more and more scammers may be trying this and different other methods to steal one's money in the future.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Please read the below post from the D&H Group, if you're interested in why even PayPal cannot be considered safe.  I'm transcribing it here below, as it appeared:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: RE: Delaware & Hudson List - The ultimate eBay scam
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Date: 6/8/09 11:40:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sender: Delawareandhudson@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Reply to: DelawareandHudson@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: delawareandhudson@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
How's this for the ultimate eBay scam . . . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
After being paid for the item, Seller purchases an on-line Priority Mail label and alters it, leaving the addressee's name blank, enters a false street address, pastes the altered Xeroxed label on an EMPTY Priority Mail envelope and mails.  Seller emails an image of the unaltered label to the Buyer, making him believe everything is okay and gives him a valid tracking number.  The Postal Tracking system shows the package as having been received.  Everything looks fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Item arrives at the destination Post Office and cannot be delivered because of the false street address.  Destination Post Office enters "Undeliverable as Addressed, return to Sender" in the Tracking Log.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Seller, upon seeing this, calls the destination Post Office, makes some excuse about the falsified street address and provides the "correct" addressee name and address, neither being that of the Buyer.  Post Office delivers the empty envelope to this fraudulent address, entering "Delivered on (date) at (time)" in the Tracking Log.  Recipient knows nothing about the situation, opens and then discards the empty envelope.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Buyer, having paid with PayPal, files a non-delivery claim only to have it rejected because the tracking system says the item was delivered.  Buyer does not have the item and does not have the money, yet the Postal tracking system says he received the item.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
This was resolved successfully, but only after 5 phone calls to PayPal and a fax from the local Postal Supervisor, all very time consuming.  E-mailing PayPal gets you in their automated system, which in this case "saw" the delivered notation in the Tracking Log -- and believed it.  Replies to the automated system go to an unmonitored mail box and are neither read nor answered.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
This information was sent to eBay and they never answered.  So much for eBay protection.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The above is the account of the transaction scammed by an unscrupulous Seller on the D&H groupsite, which demonstrates that no payment method is safe, not even PayPal -- perhaps -- especially not even PayPal, as it's automated system will not allow discussion, and it will "believe" anything the Postal System tells it, whether accurate or false.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10913
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 6/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal-using savings acct.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean Naylor wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> My PNC Bank checking account is free. I have three accounts there and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> my "/Buisness/" account that has had ~$6.50 in it for nearly 4-5 years 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> by now. The ballence has never changed. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          My normal checking account is with Wells Fargo. I don't know if they 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
have any "free" accounts. I'd prefer an account that was linked to my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
existing one so I can transfer funds between them easily.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
"The speed of time is one second per second."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    -Stephen Wright
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10914
						From: Donald Huddleston
						Date: 6/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I think there would have to be a lot of money involved to make this worth a sellers trouble.  Don't deal with sellers that have no feedback or less than an excellent rating.  How many times do you think a seller would be able to pull off this elaborate scheme before someone noticed a pattern.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      If you can't afford to loose the money, don't deal with sellers that don't have an excellant feedback rating.  Look them over carefully.  There are very few items that come up for sale on ebay, that you will never see again. If the seller looks questionalble, pass and look for the same item for sale by someone that looks more reputable.  I would rather pass on an item than get into a transaction that turned bad.  Practice safe shopping.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Tue, 6/9/09, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: eBay/PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 7:44 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All, With this long thread in discussions on preferred payment methods used for eBay purchases, as mostly a Buyer, I've preferred to refrain from getting into the middle of this, especially as I continue reading more input on it. I would like to point out though, that there is really no "safety" in using any method, regardless of who's (eBay's, Seller or Buyer) payment methods are used.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Case in point -- I came across a most enlightening message received last night on the Delaware & Hudson List group, which details how scammers have even thought up how to skirt the PayPal process and steal a Buyer's money. These con-artists must stay up at night figuring these scams out. While this is now small-time, you can bet that as this word gets out, that more and more scammers may be trying this and different other methods to steal one's money in the future.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Please read the below post from the D&H Group, if you're interested in why
 even PayPal cannot be considered safe. I'm transcribing it here below, as it appeared:

                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: Delaware & Hudson List - The ultimate eBay scam

                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 6/8/09 11:40:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sender: Delawareandhudson@ yahoogroups. com

                                                                                                                                                                                      Reply to: DelawareandHudson@ yahoogroups. com

                                                                                                                                                                                      To: delawareandhudson@ yahoogroups. com

                                                                                                                                                                                      How's this for the ultimate eBay scam . . . 

                                                                                                                                                                                      After being paid
 for the item, Seller purchases an on-line Priority Mail label and alters it, leaving the addressee's name blank, enters a false street address, pastes the altered Xeroxed label on an EMPTY Priority Mail envelope and mails. Seller emails an image of the unaltered label to the Buyer, making him believe everything is okay and gives him a valid tracking number. The Postal Tracking system shows the package as having been received. Everything looks fine.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Item arrives at the destination Post Office and cannot be delivered because of the false street address. Destination Post Office enters "Undeliverable as Addressed, return to Sender" in the Tracking Log.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Seller, upon seeing this, calls the destination Post Office, makes some excuse about the falsified street address and provides the "correct" addressee name and address, neither being that of the Buyer. Post Office delivers the empty envelope to this fraudulent address, entering "Delivered on
 (date) at (time)" in the Tracking Log. Recipient knows nothing about the situation, opens and then discards the empty envelope.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Buyer, having paid with PayPal, files a non-delivery claim only to have it rejected because the tracking system says the item was delivered. Buyer does not have the item and does not have the money, yet the Postal tracking system says he received the item.

                                                                                                                                                                                      This was resolved successfully, but only after 5 phone calls to PayPal and a fax from the local Postal Supervisor, all very time consuming. E-mailing PayPal gets you in their automated system, which in this case "saw" the delivered notation in the Tracking Log -- and believed it. Replies to the automated system go to an unmonitored mail box and are neither read nor answered.

                                                                                                                                                                                      This information was sent to eBay and they never answered. So much for eBay protection.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The above is the account of the transaction scammed by an unscrupulous Seller on the
 D&H groupsite, which demonstrates that no payment method is safe, not even PayPal -- perhaps -- especially not even PayPal, as it's automated system will not allow discussion, and it will "believe" anything the Postal System tells it, whether accurate or false. Ray F.W. 


                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10915
						From: trainliker
						Date: 6/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay/PayPal
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Actually, apparently not much money has to be involved.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I completely forgot how I was once scammed, and a second attempt was made, when the other day I said everything had been fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Quite a few years ago I won a $15 auction for a Time Magazine with Raymond Loewy on the cover.  I paid with Pay Pal.  It didn't work.  I contacted the seller and the email back said there was some snafu with their Pay Pal account and to just send a check.  (The idea of a snafu with Pay Pal was very believable at the time.  Probably still is.)  They gave me an address with some company name.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The item never came.  My emails were ignored.  I was busy with other things.  It wasn't much money.  And I just dropped the issue.  (I really should have filed a dispute at ebay.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
A couple of years later, I see an auction for the Time Magazine that I still wanted and again the Pay Pal didn't work.  Hey!!  Fool me twice, shame on me!!  I keep records of every transactions and the titles of the new auction and the scam auction were identical right down to unusual punctuation and capitilization.  The address this time was the same street address, but a different box number (using a drop box place) and the company name wasn't the same, but was a very similar variation of the prior one.  I had extensive email conversations with ebay and then telephone conversations with ebay and they seemed to react like molasses.  Another twist was that this was a "new" seller but had a bunch of perfect feedback.  It was all for items sold for $0.01 that were downloaded games or something with no shipping.  (No doubt purchased by the same person, or ring of persons to amp up some feedback.)  Sure enough, feedback started rolling in that was quite negative from who didn't know what I knew.  Then the seller switched the feedback information to "withheld" (I don't know why sellers can do that).  After a couple more weeks, the seller was gone and ebay wouldn't comment to me about it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have also experienced some "wrong item shipped" issues.  People simply make mistakes.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The first time was somebody using WEB TV (does that still exist?) to try and sell on ebay.  Sent me the wrong booklet.  Never got it straightened out.  He seemed to give up on ebay and just went away.  (It's more work to sell than some think, you see.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The second time was for, I forget what, but it was around XMAS and what I got was supposed to be for XMAS for somebody else, so I offered to forward it directly on my nickel to expedite.  And I eventually got my item.  Good ebayers all around.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The third was some Laconia kits, I think, and one or two extras had found their way into the shipment to me and I checked and they showed up in other closed auctions from the seller.  I communicated to the seller, and he said to just keep them.  Don't know how he dealt with whoever got shorted.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The fourth was recent and was a small Climax Catalog pamphlet.  I got an Alco Catalog pamphlet.  The seller still had the Climax one, told me to just keep the mis-sent one, and I did get the right one, also.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Now that I think about it, I did have one experience with somebody that I thought had a somewhat sleezy approach.  I bought a "Kemtron Thomas Flyer, unbuilt, original box, with copy of manual".  I don't know if you know, but the manual is a many page pamphlet including photos of finished models by several folks.  When I got it, the copy of a copy alright.  A photo copy.  A few days later, I see the original in one of his auctions.  So he had done this shell game to wring a little more out of the item.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Also, somebody used to (perhaps still does) sell "Schwinn catalogs" with reams of information on the auction page and buried way down at the bottom is a little comment that they are photocopies.  You have to watch out for that with documents, photos, slides, whatever.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Seeing as ebay buyers and sellers are human, it is to be expected that some will make honest mistakes, and there may be the occasional scoundrel.  But my sense is that it is no worse than in "real life", and maybe better actually with at least some presence of the ebay "big brother".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Another way to look at this is a somewhat classic risk decision process:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
1.    What's the best that can happen if I do this?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
2.    What's the worst that can happen if I do this?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
3.    Is number one worth risking number two?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
4.    Can I live with number two if it happens?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I think it would be hard avoid the opportunity to get some coveted hobby item because there is some 1 in 100 or maybe 1 in 1000 chance you might get snookered, probably, the tune of a very small percentage of yearly or lifetime income even if it happens.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Chuck Kinzer  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Donald Huddleston <don_hud@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I think there would have to be a lot of money involved to make this worth a sellers trouble.  Don't deal with sellers that have no feedback or less than an excellent rating.  How many times do you think a seller would be able to pull off this elaborate scheme before someone noticed a pattern.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> If you can't afford to loose the money, don't deal with sellers that don't have an excellant feedback rating.  Look them over carefully.  There are very few items that come up for sale on ebay, that you will never see again. If the seller looks questionalble, pass and look for the same item for sale by someone that looks more reputable.  I would rather pass on an item than get into a transaction that turned bad.  Practice safe shopping.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- On Tue, 6/9/09, erieberk <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: eBay/PayPal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 7:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi All, With this long thread in discussions on preferred payment methods used for eBay purchases, as mostly a Buyer, I've preferred to refrain from getting into the middle of this, especially as I continue reading more input on it. I would like to point out though, that there is really no "safety" in using any method, regardless of who's (eBay's, Seller or Buyer) payment methods are used.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Case in point -- I came across a most enlightening message received last night on the Delaware & Hudson List group, which details how scammers have even thought up how to skirt the PayPal process and steal a Buyer's money. These con-artists must stay up at night figuring these scams out. While this is now small-time, you can bet that as this word gets out, that more and more scammers may be trying this and different other methods to steal one's money in the future.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Please read the below post from the D&H Group, if you're interested in why even PayPal cannot be considered safe. I'm transcribing it here below, as it appeared:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: RE: Delaware & Hudson List - The ultimate eBay scam
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: 6/8/09 11:40:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sender: Delawareandhudson@ yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Reply to: DelawareandHudson@ yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: delawareandhudson@ yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> How's this for the ultimate eBay scam . . . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> After being paid for the item, Seller purchases an on-line Priority Mail label and alters it, leaving the addressee's name blank, enters a false street address, pastes the altered Xeroxed label on an EMPTY Priority Mail envelope and mails. Seller emails an image of the unaltered label to the Buyer, making him believe everything is okay and gives him a valid tracking number. The Postal Tracking system shows the package as having been received. Everything looks fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Item arrives at the destination Post Office and cannot be delivered because of the false street address. Destination Post Office enters "Undeliverable as Addressed, return to Sender" in the Tracking Log.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Seller, upon seeing this, calls the destination Post Office, makes some excuse about the falsified street address and provides the "correct" addressee name and address, neither being that of the Buyer. Post Office delivers the empty envelope to this fraudulent address, entering "Delivered on (date) at (time)" in the Tracking Log. Recipient knows nothing about the situation, opens and then discards the empty envelope.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Buyer, having paid with PayPal, files a non-delivery claim only to have it rejected because the tracking system says the item was delivered. Buyer does not have the item and does not have the money, yet the Postal tracking system says he received the item.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> This was resolved successfully, but only after 5 phone calls to PayPal and a fax from the local Postal Supervisor, all very time consuming. E-mailing PayPal gets you in their automated system, which in this case "saw" the delivered notation in the Tracking Log -- and believed it. Replies to the automated system go to an unmonitored mail box and are neither read nor answered.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> This information was sent to eBay and they never answered. So much for eBay protection.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The above is the account of the transaction scammed by an unscrupulous Seller on the D&H groupsite, which demonstrates that no payment method is safe, not even PayPal -- perhaps -- especially not even PayPal, as it's automated system will not allow discussion, and it will "believe" anything the Postal System tells it, whether accurate or false. Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10916
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Revell Dockside/Varney Plastic Body
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                          All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A 
little while back there was a thread concerning all the Varney 0-4-0 Dockside 
production runs, both metal and plastic. There was also discussion at that 
time about the Varney bodies being used else where.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            At the time I had 
planned to send these pictures and description concerning the Revell HO Dockside 
using the Varney plastic body. I don't happen to remember Revell 
being cited as one of the companies using a Varney Dockside body. If some 
one did mention it I apologize but the pictures might be helpful. I forgot 
to send them as sometimes things just get away 
from you. Hopefully they are worth something now.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            The Revell Dockside 
was sold as item no. T-3650 and made between 1959-1962.  They only 
came factory lettered for the Pennsylvania. As I have mentioned only plastic 
bodies. You can see the V inside the oval on the front end of the boiler was 
left on. The frame was metal and used the larger hook Revell couplers and 
plastic coupler pockets.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10917
						From: toytrain13
						Date: 6/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Stripping old Hobbytown
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello- Any ideas on removing old paint from some Hobbytown E7's? I've seen some people using brake fluid, but is there a better way? Thanks- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10918
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 6/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Stripping old Hobbytown
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      On die cast bodies like Hobbytown, acetone or lacquer thinner works well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 4:25 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Stripping old Hobbytown
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hello- Any ideas on removing old paint from some Hobbytown E7's? I've seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> some people using brake fluid, but is there a better way? Thanks- Richard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> White
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.61/2167 - Release Date: 06/10/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
05:52:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10919
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 6/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Stripping old Hobbytown
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 6:25 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Stripping old Hobbytown
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hello- Any ideas on removing old paint from some Hobbytown E7's? I've seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> some people using brake fluid, but is there a better way? Thanks- Richard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> White
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If there's no window glazing, I'd just use lacquer thinner.  There's no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
plastic parts to worry about and it cuts just about everything.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10920
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 6/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: That SP baggage car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 




 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      There is a Tenshodo baggage with this 7 car set that looks
just like the two the other day.  E-Bay number:
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      200349457563
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10921
						From: Chris B
						Date: 6/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Stripping old Hobbytown
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Heck if there's no glazing, you could use lacquer thinner to do final clean up after using a commercial paint removal stripper like KWIK Marine boat paint stripper or one of the new home renovation types like SmartStrip. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I've used brake fluid with success on plastic shells, and laquer thinner on brass shells with fine detail, but with plain diecast shells you can use a process that takes more steps but  can be slightly more effective; especially for removing the last traces of paint stuck around small cast on details with less chance of leaving scratches that might have to be fixed before re-painting..

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Stripping metal shells is almost the ideal situation for using thick paste paint strippers used for boats, cars, or houses;  because you can put the shells in an old glass or metal
baking pan, cover them with a thick coat of paste stripper, and wrap it
all up with aluminum foil. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      These kind of strippers work best when you
can slow down the inevitable evaporation process and keep the stripping
chemical from drying out on the oject for as long as possible.  KWIK is the old toxic use all cautions to protect eyes, lungs and skin type, Smartstrip is the new safer less chemically hazardous type. In either case, this is an outside the house full ventilation procedure.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I learned paint stripping originally as part of professional furniture refinishing, and while you have to take all kinds of precautions when removing paint from aged fine wood, we would always take painted brass or iron hardware, drop it in an old coffee can, pour in new paint stripper (KWIK Marine worked best) until the part was covered over completely, put the lid on the can, and let it sit for a few days.  If it was solid brass and not painted, we used the same techniques but instead of using paint stripper followed by laquer thinner, we used laquer thinner followed by ammonia.

                                                                                                                                                                                      When a popsicle stick will push the paint off the main flat surfaces with no
 effort, you still want to wait, don't start using water or laquer thinner yet, you'll stop the chemical process, and you want to prolong that step untill any paint that will fall off without pushing has released its bond on the metal surface.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Just pour out the old stripper and add another round of new stripper and recoat the shells again, until the stubborn paint in the crevices around cast on details is falling away from the inside corners when you poke it with the pointed end of a bamboo bbq skewer.

                                                                                                                                                                                      That's when I'd use a nylon auto parts cleaning brush and rubber gloves and brush off all the remaining paint that just falls off.  Then rinse the brush, the  shells, and the pan or can in laquer thinner or Varsol (VMP). 

                                                                                                                                                                                      And because there's always some little bits of paint still stuck somewhere, I'd soak an old white t shirt or similar thin white cloth rag in the same solvent, wrap the shells in it, put it back in the pan or
 can, and cover it up with foil again for an overnight final soak.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Using the chemical process and using soft rags and wooden tools,
instead of using any type of metal scrapers or brass brush will reduce
the chance of any marks or scratches in the soft cast shells that might
require extra effort to remove before re-painting.

                                                                                                                                                                                      When you unwrap the shell, use the wet rag to scrub the remaining paint off the shell, and wrapping similar small bits of wet rag around the pointed tip of a skewer or a popsicle stick should let you push every last bit of paint away from the crevices of cast on details.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      You know you're done when a clean old white t shirt soaked in clean solvent can scrub over the whole shell and come away with no visible residue of paint.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      That also means the shell is perfectly prepared for a re-paint, just as soon as the solvent evaporates.

                                                                                                                                                                                      BTW, this whole process works with smaller detail parts as well, and with brass shells too, 

                                                                                                                                                                                      but with old solid brass hardware we always repeated the solvent step using full strength ammonia, which has an effective chemical
 reaction with old brass tarnish that leaves brass looking like new gold without any real physical scrubbing or polishing effort.  I still use ammonia to raw clean tarnished solid brass shells and parts, soaking items over night and replacing the ammonia till all the tarnish has left the surface and turned the clear ammonia bright green.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B.


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 9:05:31 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Stripping old Hobbytown

                                                                                                                                                                                      









    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "toytrain13" <toytrain13@hotmail. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 6:25 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Stripping old Hobbytown
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hello- Any ideas on removing old paint from some Hobbytown E7's? I've seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> some people using brake fluid, but is there a better way? Thanks- Richard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> White
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If there's no window glazing, I'd just use lacquer thinner.  There's no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
plastic parts to worry about and it cuts just about everything.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10922
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 6/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Stripping old Hobbytown
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
Just as effective, faster, and more simple is to use the old type of oven cleaner on the model.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Original Easy-Off will strip the paints in a very few minutes.

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      On Jun 11, 2009, at 4:31 AM, Chris B wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                      Heck if there's no glazing, you could use lacquer thinner to do final clean up after using a commercial paint removal stripper like KWIK Marine boat paint stripper or one of the new home renovation types like SmartStrip. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I've used brake fluid with success on plastic shells, and laquer thinner on brass shells with fine detail, but with plain diecast shells you can use a process that takes more steps but  can be slightly more effective; especially for removing the last traces of paint stuck around small cast on details with less chance of leaving scratches that might have to be fixed before re-painting..

                                                                                                                                                                                      Stripping metal shells is almost the ideal situation for using thick paste paint strippers used for boats, cars, or houses;  because you can put the shells in an old glass or metal baking pan, cover them with a thick coat of paste stripper, and wrap it all up with aluminum foil. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      These kind of strippers work best when you can slow down the inevitable evaporation process and keep the stripping chemical from drying out on the oject for as long as possible.  KWIK is the old toxic use all cautions to protect eyes, lungs and skin type, Smartstrip is the new safer less chemically hazardous type. In either case, this is an outside the house full ventilation procedure.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I learned paint stripping originally as part of professional furniture refinishing, and while you have to take all kinds of precautions when removing paint from aged fine wood, we would always take painted brass or iron hardware, drop it in an old coffee can, pour in new paint stripper (KWIK Marine worked best) until the part was covered over completely, put the lid on the can, and let it sit for a few days.  If it was solid brass and not painted, we used the same techniques but instead of using paint stripper followed by laquer thinner, we used laquer thinner followed by ammonia.

                                                                                                                                                                                      When a popsicle stick will push the paint off the main flat surfaces with no effort, you still want to wait, don't start using water or laquer thinner yet, you'll stop the chemical process, and you want to prolong that step untill any paint that will fall off without pushing has released its bond on the metal surface.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Just pour out the old stripper and add another round of new stripper and recoat the shells again, until the stubborn paint in the crevices around cast on details is falling away from the inside corners when you poke it with the pointed end of a bamboo bbq skewer.

                                                                                                                                                                                      That's when I'd use a nylon auto parts cleaning brush and rubber gloves and brush off all the remaining paint that just falls off.  Then rinse the brush, the  shells, and the pan or can in laquer thinner or Varsol (VMP). 

                                                                                                                                                                                      And because there's always some little bits of paint still stuck somewhere, I'd soak an old white t shirt or similar thin white cloth rag in the same solvent, wrap the shells in it, put it back in the pan or can, and cover it up with foil again for an overnight final soak.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Using the chemical process and using soft rags and wooden tools, instead of using any type of metal scrapers or brass brush will reduce the chance of any marks or scratches in the soft cast shells that might require extra effort to remove before re-painting.

                                                                                                                                                                                      When you unwrap the shell, use the wet rag to scrub the remaining paint off the shell, and wrapping similar small bits of wet rag around the pointed tip of a skewer or a popsicle stick should let you push every last bit of paint away from the crevices of cast on details.

                                                                                                                                                                                      You know you're done when a clean old white t shirt soaked in clean solvent can scrub over the whole shell and come away with no visible residue of paint.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      That also means the shell is perfectly prepared for a re-paint, just as soon as the solvent evaporates.

                                                                                                                                                                                      BTW, this whole process works with smaller detail parts as well, and with brass shells too, 

                                                                                                                                                                                      but with old solid brass hardware we always repeated the solvent step using full strength ammonia, which has an effective chemical reaction with old brass tarnish that leaves brass looking like new gold without any real physical scrubbing or polishing effort.  I still use ammonia to raw clean tarnished solid brass shells and parts, soaking items over night and replacing the ammonia till all the tarnish has left the surface and turned the clear ammonia bright green.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B.


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Don Dellmann <
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "toytrain13" <toytrain13@hotmail. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 6:25 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Stripping old Hobbytown

                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hello- Any ideas on removing old paint from some Hobbytown E7's? I've seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > some people using brake fluid, but is there a better way? Thanks- Richard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > White

                                                                                                                                                                                      If there's no window glazing, I'd just use lacquer thinner. There's no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      plastic parts to worry about and it cuts just about everything.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10923
						From: Chris B
						Date: 6/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Stripping old Hobbytown
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      true, but  easy off requires mandatory serious ventilation, like acetone or Kwik, they all carry real poisons.
                                                                                                                                                                                      My ex-wife has suffered lung problems for 30 years after overdoing it just once with easy off in a closed kitchen.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Pick your poison when it comes to paint removal.

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent:
 Thursday, June 11, 2009 7:13:05 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Stripping old Hobbytown

                                                                                                                                                                                      









    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Just as effective, faster, and more simple is to use the old type of oven cleaner on the model.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Original Easy-Off will strip the paints in a very few minutes.

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      On Jun 11, 2009, at 4:31 AM, Chris B wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                      Heck if there's no glazing, you could use lacquer thinner to do final clean up after using a commercial paint removal stripper like KWIK Marine boat paint stripper or one of the new home renovation types like SmartStrip. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I've used brake fluid with success on plastic shells, and laquer thinner on brass shells with fine detail, but with plain diecast shells you can use a process that takes more steps but  can be slightly more effective; especially for removing the last traces of paint stuck around small cast on details with less chance of leaving scratches that might have to be fixed before re-painting. .

                                                                                                                                                                                      Stripping metal shells is almost the ideal situation for using thick paste paint strippers used for boats, cars, or houses;  because you can put the shells in an old glass or metal baking pan, cover them with a thick coat of paste
 stripper, and wrap it all up with aluminum foil. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      These kind of strippers work best when you can slow down the inevitable evaporation process and keep the stripping chemical from drying out on the oject for as long as possible.  KWIK is the old toxic use all cautions to protect eyes, lungs and skin type, Smartstrip is the new safer less chemically hazardous type. In either case, this is an outside the house full ventilation procedure.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I learned paint stripping originally as part of professional furniture refinishing, and while you have to take all kinds of precautions when removing paint from aged fine wood, we would always take painted brass or iron hardware, drop it in an old coffee can, pour in new paint stripper (KWIK Marine worked best) until the part was covered over completely, put the lid on the can, and let it sit for a few days.  If it was solid brass and not painted, we
 used the same techniques but instead of using paint stripper followed by laquer thinner, we used laquer thinner followed by ammonia.

                                                                                                                                                                                      When a popsicle stick will push the paint off the main flat surfaces with no effort, you still want to wait, don't start using water or laquer thinner yet, you'll stop the chemical process, and you want to prolong that step untill any paint that will fall off without pushing has released its bond on the metal surface.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Just pour out the old stripper and add another round of new stripper and recoat the shells again, until the stubborn paint in the crevices around cast on details is falling away from the inside corners when you poke it with the pointed end of a bamboo bbq skewer.

                                                                                                                                                                                      That's when I'd use a nylon auto parts cleaning brush and rubber gloves and brush off all the remaining paint that just falls off.  Then rinse the brush, the  shells, and the pan or can in laquer thinner or Varsol
 (VMP). 

                                                                                                                                                                                      And because there's always some little bits of paint still stuck somewhere, I'd soak an old white t shirt or similar thin white cloth rag in the same solvent, wrap the shells in it, put it back in the pan or can, and cover it up with foil again for an overnight final soak.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Using the chemical process and using soft rags and wooden tools, instead of using any type of metal scrapers or brass brush will reduce the chance of any marks or scratches in the soft cast shells that might require extra effort to remove before re-painting.

                                                                                                                                                                                      When you unwrap the shell, use the wet rag to scrub the remaining paint off the shell, and wrapping similar small bits of wet rag around the pointed tip of a skewer or a popsicle stick should let you push every last bit of paint away from the crevices of cast on details.

                                                                                                                                                                                      You know you're done when a clean old white t shirt soaked in clean solvent can scrub over the whole shell and come away with no visible residue of paint.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      That also means the shell is perfectly prepared for a re-paint, just as soon as the solvent evaporates.

                                                                                                                                                                                      BTW, this whole process works with smaller detail parts as well, and with brass shells too, 

                                                                                                                                                                                      but with old solid brass hardware we always repeated the solvent step using full strength ammonia, which has an effective chemical reaction with old brass tarnish that leaves brass looking like new gold without any real physical scrubbing or polishing effort.  I still use ammonia to raw clean tarnished solid brass shells and parts, soaking items over night and replacing the ammonia till all the tarnish has left the surface and turned
 the clear ammonia bright green.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B.


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Don Dellmann <
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "toytrain13" <toytrain13@hotmail. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 6:25 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Stripping old Hobbytown

                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hello- Any ideas on removing old paint from some Hobbytown E7's? I've
 seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > some people using brake fluid, but is there a better way? Thanks- Richard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > White

                                                                                                                                                                                      If there's no window glazing, I'd just use lacquer thinner. There's no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      plastic parts to worry about and it cuts just about everything.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10924
						From: toytrain13
						Date: 6/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Stripping old Hobbytown
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for your help, Glenn, Don, Chris (especailly!)and Mike. I have obtained several Hobbytown E7's to repaint (eventually I hope to have units for IC, CNW, PRR, and GN)-some of which are dummies, requiring a power chassis. I'll do the stripping and repainting now, and power them when I find the Hobbytown power units (I want to stay original). I have in recent months constructed a number of Blue Line and American Beauty kits for those roads and these Hobbytown E7's will head up each train. And yes, I am the purchaser of the GN Pendulum Car from EBay. Regards- Richard White, Moraga, CA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10925
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 6/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Stripping old Hobbytown
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I believe the active component there was Lye.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 6:45 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Stripping old Hobbytown
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> true, but  easy off requires mandatory serious ventilation, like acetone 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> or Kwik, they all carry real poisons.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> My ex-wife has suffered lung problems for 30 years after overdoing it just 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> once with easy off in a closed kitchen.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Pick your poison when it comes to paint removal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 7:13:05 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Stripping old Hobbytown
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Just as effective, faster, and more simple is to use the old type of oven 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> cleaner on the model.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Original Easy-Off will strip the paints in a very few minutes.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On Jun 11, 2009, at 4:31 AM, Chris B wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Heck if there's no glazing, you could use lacquer thinner to do final 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> clean up after using a commercial paint removal stripper like KWIK Marine 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> boat paint stripper or one of the new home renovation types like 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> SmartStrip.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I've used brake fluid with success on plastic shells, and laquer thinner 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> on brass shells with fine detail, but with plain diecast shells you can 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> use a process that takes more steps but  can be slightly more effective; 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> especially for removing the last traces of paint stuck around small cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> on details with less chance of leaving scratches that might have to be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> fixed before re-painting. .
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Stripping metal shells is almost the ideal situation for using thick paste 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> paint strippers used for boats, cars, or houses;  because you can put the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> shells in an old glass or metal baking pan, cover them with a thick coat 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of paste stripper, and wrap it all up with aluminum foil.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> These kind of strippers work best when you can slow down the inevitable 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> evaporation process and keep the stripping chemical from drying out on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> oject for as long as possible.  KWIK is the old toxic use all cautions to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> protect eyes, lungs and skin type, Smartstrip is the new safer less 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> chemically hazardous type. In either case, this is an outside the house 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> full ventilation procedure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I learned paint stripping originally as part of professional furniture 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> refinishing, and while you have to take all kinds of precautions when 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> removing paint from aged fine wood, we would always take painted brass or 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> iron hardware, drop it in an old coffee can, pour in new paint stripper 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (KWIK Marine worked best) until the part was covered over completely, put 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the lid on the can, and let it sit for a few days.  If it was solid brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and not painted, we used the same techniques but instead of using paint 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> stripper followed by laquer thinner, we used laquer thinner followed by 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ammonia.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> When a popsicle stick will push the paint off the main flat surfaces with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> no effort, you still want to wait, don't start using water or laquer 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> thinner yet, you'll stop the chemical process, and you want to prolong 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that step untill any paint that will fall off without pushing has released 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> its bond on the metal surface.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Just pour out the old stripper and add another round of new stripper and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> recoat the shells again, until the stubborn paint in the crevices around 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> cast on details is falling away from the inside corners when you poke it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> with the pointed end of a bamboo bbq skewer.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> That's when I'd use a nylon auto parts cleaning brush and rubber gloves 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and brush off all the remaining paint that just falls off.  Then rinse the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> brush, the  shells, and the pan or can in laquer thinner or Varsol (VMP).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> And because there's always some little bits of paint still stuck 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> somewhere, I'd soak an old white t shirt or similar thin white cloth rag 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> in the same solvent, wrap the shells in it, put it back in the pan or can, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and cover it up with foil again for an overnight final soak.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Using the chemical process and using soft rags and wooden tools, instead 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of using any type of metal scrapers or brass brush will reduce the chance 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of any marks or scratches in the soft cast shells that might require extra 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> effort to remove before re-painting.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> When you unwrap the shell, use the wet rag to scrub the remaining paint 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> off the shell, and wrapping similar small bits of wet rag around the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> pointed tip of a skewer or a popsicle stick should let you push every last 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> bit of paint away from the crevices of cast on details.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> You know you're done when a clean old white t shirt soaked in clean 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> solvent can scrub over the whole shell and come away with no visible 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> residue of paint.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> That also means the shell is perfectly prepared for a re-paint, just as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> soon as the solvent evaporates.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> BTW, this whole process works with smaller detail parts as well, and with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> brass shells too,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> but with old solid brass hardware we always repeated the solvent step 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> using full strength ammonia, which has an effective chemical reaction with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> old brass tarnish that leaves brass looking like new gold without any real 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> physical scrubbing or polishing effort.  I still use ammonia to raw clean 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> tarnished solid brass shells and parts, soaking items over night and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> replacing the ammonia till all the tarnish has left the surface and turned 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the clear ammonia bright green.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Don Dellmann <
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "toytrain13" <toytrain13@hotmail. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 6:25 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Stripping old Hobbytown
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Hello- Any ideas on removing old paint from some Hobbytown E7's? I've 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> seen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> some people using brake fluid, but is there a better way? Thanks- Richard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> White
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> If there's no window glazing, I'd just use lacquer thinner. There's no
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> plastic parts to worry about and it cuts just about everything.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10926
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 6/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Stripping old Hobbytown
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Please ALWAYS read the label on -any- chemicals.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have a neighbor that wanted to kill off the weeds in the yard. So  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
she bought a brand-name product and had her genuine Dean's list son  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
put it on her yard.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
A few days later she was asking me how the heck Round-up managed to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
kill all of the weeds and grass in her yard.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Anyone that bothered to look at the front label would have seen it  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
clearly says 'weed and grass killer'. The rest of the labeling was  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
very clear about it killing the grass as well as the weeds in the yard.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Jun 11, 2009, at 6:02 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I believe the active component there was Lye.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "Chris B"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> true, but  easy off requires mandatory serious ventilation, like  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> acetone
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> or Kwik, they all carry real poisons.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> My ex-wife has suffered lung problems for 30 years after overdoing  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> it just
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> once with easy off in a closed kitchen.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Pick your poison when it comes to paint removal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> From: Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Just as effective, faster, and more simple is to use the old type  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> of oven
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> cleaner on the model.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Original Easy-Off will strip the paints in a very few minutes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10927
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 6/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So much for Monday or Tuesday. How about Friday?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Actually I have 3 DC 71's here. Hmmm, I can't recall exactly why but what I'll do is hook them up to a power pack (but I gotta find one first) and see which ones run. I seem to remember one was on the weak side but that is a very foggy recollection at best. Anyway, one (or more) is yours if you want it. Contact me off line and I'll send you my address for payment. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I am also looking at what I think is a DC 60 sitting here.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Q: recognizing certain early Mantua motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009, 1:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I thought that the Mikado used a DC71. Anyway, I have one of the early Mantua Mike motors here in with a bunch of stuff I will be ebaying. I also have the Sagami motor w/flywheel used to re-power an Athearn that will also be ebayed (gots no use for it now but have mucho use for money). The Mike motor has some amount of time on it but not a whole lot while that Sagami has quite a bit. But it ran well when it was removed so I could re-detail the engine it was in. That Cary S-2 shell, unfinished, will also be put on ebay. Oh well. One of those ne’er got done projects that I have plenty of sitting around. Now the injection mold technology has way-passed Cary technology.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      I'll dig around in the ebay box Monday or Tuesday and let you know when I find it. Can’t be worth all that much; I’m thinking $5.00 + postage.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10928
						From: Jim Waterman
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Stripping old Hobbytown
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Just one more contrarian view on paint 
stripping.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I do some tinplate restorations as well and what I 
have been using that is far more safe, is to get a gallon of that 'pink' general 
purpose cleaner, heat up some water pretty hot, and mix the cleaner 50 - 50 with 
the pink stuff. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Soak the shells in it for a couple of days then 
rinse with plain water. If there is still residue, brush off what you can and 
dip them again for a couple more days. Eventually all the paint will be gone, 
but not your health. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      After working with brake fluid, Easy-Off and 
several paint strippers, I have found that this method works fine, gives you a 
nice clean finish, can be reused a few times, and does not have the danger and 
toxicity associated with some of the other methods. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      You can find the pink stuff (or use Simple Clean, 
its about the same stuff) at any hardware store or Home Depot. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10929
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm 
sending some pictures to have a little fun to see if anyone can ID. I'm 95% 
sure I know although I don't know if the company only sold them or manufactured 
them. FORGET THE TRUCKS ON THEM. They are just Athearn Heavyweight trucks that I 
threw on because I had nothing else at the time. I now have enough Blue Line, 
American Beauty or Central Valley trucks to put on them but to lazy to do. I 
have no idea what the right trucks would be as none came with the cars. they 
were assembled when I found them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             The bodies are 
extruded metal (Aluminum perhaps). I have 6 cars.  2 Baggage, 1 
RPO, 2 Coaches and one unknown to me ( Diner or sleeper perhaps). I have no idea 
what others might have been made. The floor is metal with plastic detail parts 
you put on. The ends and doors are plastic also. The only instruction sheet I 
have shows you where to put the under floor detail parts. Some of the parts with 
them look like roof detail. I didn't send pictures of the coach as I just saw 
the name is on a tag under it and visible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                 Have 
some fun and if no one guesses I tell you the seller/manufacturer. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10930
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ???? [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Just a guess here, but are they OK Models?

                                                                                                                                                                                      I think they still make cars like this.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sat, 6/13/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Guess by who ???? [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Saturday, June 13, 2009, 11:13 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      






    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm 
sending some pictures to have a little fun to see if anyone can ID. I'm 95% 
sure I know although I don't know if the company only sold them or manufactured 
them. FORGET THE TRUCKS ON THEM. They are just Athearn Heavyweight trucks that I 
threw on because I had nothing else at the time. I now have enough Blue Line, 
American Beauty or Central Valley trucks to put on them but to lazy to do. I 
have no idea what the right trucks would be as none came with the cars. they 
were assembled when I found them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             The bodies are 
extruded metal (Aluminum perhaps). I have 6 cars.  2 Baggage, 1 
RPO, 2 Coaches and one unknown to me ( Diner or sleeper perhaps). I have no idea 
what others might have been made. The floor is metal with plastic detail parts 
you put on. The ends and doors are plastic also. The only instruction sheet I 
have shows you where to put the under floor detail parts. Some of the parts with 
them look like roof detail. I didn't send pictures of the coach as I just saw 
the name is on a tag under it and visible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                 Have 
some fun and if no one guesses I tell you the seller/manufacturer . 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10931
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm thinking perhaps Kasiner (then Herkimer, then 
OK).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      From a Fall 1958 copy of "Model Trains" that I 
recently got because it had a big Varney Berkshire review, I remembered this new 
product news ("Model Trains Inspection Pit section) on Herkimer 
cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      "Here is the Most Complete line of passenger cars 
available for the streamlined era.  The cars can be mixed with Athearn, 
Mantua and Penn Line cars to make up interesting trains, but this all depends on 
how your reilroad is operated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Herkimer is best known in the model airplane motor 
field.  Its line of model railroad cars was originally known to HO gaugers 
(and O gaugers too at that time) as the Kasiner line of cars.  Herkimer 
also offers an excellent line of train sets.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      ..." [the article goes on for about six more 
paragaphs]
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Regardless of whatever cars are in the 
photos, OK Engines is still making the Kasiner/Herkimer/OK 
cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      And they are also into "Vintago HO" judging from 
their museum page saying they are trying to get one of everything since their 
beginning in 1937.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      A little poking round yielded
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      "Founded by 
Norm Kasiner and Bill Kachler in 1947 in Rochester, NY. ..."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I think the Kasiner O gauge cars became part of the 
AMT line.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 11:17 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
  ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      Just a guess here, but are they OK Models?

                                                                                                                                                                                      I think 
        they still make cars like this.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On 
        Sat, 6/13/09, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> 
        wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
          jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: 
          [vintageHO] Guess by who ???? [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 
          Saturday, June 13, 2009, 11:13 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm 
          sending some pictures to have a little fun to see if anyone can 
          ID. I'm 95% sure I know although I don't know if the company only sold 
          them or manufactured them. FORGET THE TRUCKS ON THEM. They are just 
          Athearn Heavyweight trucks that I threw on because I had nothing else 
          at the time. I now have enough Blue Line, American Beauty or Central 
          Valley trucks to put on them but to lazy to do. I have no idea what 
          the right trucks would be as none came with the cars. they were 
          assembled when I found them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                             The 
          bodies are extruded metal (Aluminum perhaps). I have 6 cars.  
          2 Baggage, 1 RPO, 2 Coaches and one unknown to me ( Diner or 
          sleeper perhaps). I have no idea what others might have been made. The 
          floor is metal with plastic detail parts you put on. The ends and 
          doors are plastic also. The only instruction sheet I have shows you 
          where to put the under floor detail parts. Some of the parts with them 
          look like roof detail. I didn't send pictures of the coach as I just 
          saw the name is on a tag under it and visible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
          Have some fun and if no one guesses I tell you the 
          seller/manufacturer . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
          Jim 
  H 
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10932
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ???? [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      They look like
 Mantua units, but mine have full skirts and
no under body details like these do.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009
12:14 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Guess by who
???? [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included
below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



All,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm
sending some pictures to have a little fun to see if anyone can ID. I'm
95% sure I know although I don't know if the company only sold them or
manufactured them. FORGET THE TRUCKS ON THEM. They are just Athearn Heavyweight
trucks that I threw on because I had nothing else at the time. I now have
enough Blue Line, American Beauty or Central Valley 
trucks to put on them but to lazy to do. I have no idea what the right trucks
would be as none came with the cars. they were assembled when I found them.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                             The bodies are extruded
metal (Aluminum perhaps). I have 6 cars.  2 Baggage, 1 RPO, 2
Coaches and one unknown to me ( Diner or sleeper perhaps). I have no idea what
others might have been made. The floor is metal with plastic detail parts you
put on. The ends and doors are plastic also. The only instruction sheet I have
shows you where to put the under floor detail parts. Some of the parts with
them look like roof detail. I didn't send pictures of the coach as I just saw
the name is on a tag under it and visible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                
Have some fun and if no one guesses I tell you the seller/manufacturer .

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10933
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H.  I don't believe these are Kastner or older Herkimer/OK as they had smooth roofs, not fluted roofs.  Also the Kastner and early Heerikmer cars had plain sheet metal ends, and I belive all before the current production had masonite floors with wood details.  Rail Chief also had extruded aluminumn full length cars, but I'd have to pull my one example out later to compare it to.  I do remember that Rail Chief had cast ends, but do not remember that a vestibule was modeled.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
On your cars, the roofs have the Budd fluting, but in addition, seem to have the two logitudinal Budd strips as well.  So combining that roof detail, with the cast vestibules similar to AMT/Kusan cars, add a metal floor, my guess would be that they could be the original Mantua extruded aluminum cars.  Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>           I'm sending some pictures to have a little fun to see if anyone can ID. I'm 95% sure I know although I don't know if the company only sold them or manufactured them. FORGET THE TRUCKS ON THEM. They are just Athearn Heavyweight trucks that I threw on because I had nothing else at the time. I now have enough Blue Line, American Beauty or Central Valley trucks to put on them but to lazy to do. I have no idea what the right trucks would be as none came with the cars. they were assembled when I found them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        The bodies are extruded metal (Aluminum perhaps). I have 6 cars.  2 Baggage, 1 RPO, 2 Coaches and one unknown to me ( Diner or sleeper perhaps). I have no idea what others might have been made. The floor is metal with plastic detail parts you put on. The ends and doors are plastic also. The only instruction sheet I have shows you where to put the under floor detail parts. Some of the parts with them look like roof detail. I didn't send pictures of the coach as I just saw the name is on a tag under it and visible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            Have some fun and if no one guesses I tell you the seller/manufacturer. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10934
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck, Steve, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
Your guess about the pictures I sent being Kasiner, Herkimer or OK streamliners 
is not right.  However your mention of these companies allows me to share 
some information that might be helpful.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               In 1996 I was 
in touch with T R (Ted) Brebeck, Director of Operations and owner of OK 
streamliners. He had taken over his families business and started to reproduce 
the OK streamliner line. I want to share a letter he sent me. I wish I could 
scan it but must type it here.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
November 25, 1996
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Dear 
Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
 Thank You for all the information and the old catalog from 1958. My family 
had been in the model business ( they sold model aircraft gas motors also) for 
21 years at that time (1958). We celebrate our 60th year next year.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            The diaphragm rubber 
that you sent was a carry over from Kasiner which OK used for only one year 
until our new casted car ends were ready. I have been thinking of making some of 
those old rubbers for collectors who have those old sheet metal ends. if you 
would let me have this one, I might come up with something for you. ( My 
Note  He did remake them, send me some and also started selling 
them)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Kasiner did have 
their own HO trucks and very good ones too. ( My Note   I have 
pictures of these if anyone wants). They introduced a sprung HO truck in 1949 
and put it in their kits at that time. After a fire destroyed most of their 
production line in 1950, Kasiner was pretty much only a wholesaler with a hobby 
shop in the front. Some times items were sold off the shelf but Kasiner cars 
were out of production until bought out by OK in 1954.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              Most of 
the records,drawings and production rights from the 1954 deal still exist. We 
will be using a lot of this to  get back in  the "O" scale market and 
adding to the HO accessories. For 23 years now OK Engine Company has been and 
will be a source of collectible items as well as new and improved 
fare.   (There is more but to much to type)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Yours truly
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
T. R. (Ted) Brebeck
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
I also want to pass along that in the Summer of 1999 I was offered a First 
Edition autographed copy of " Herkie Rides the Rails which was written by T R 
Brebeck. It was described as the definitive and annotated story of OK 
Streamliner. Contains illustrations. informative listings and information. From 
1938 forward the book presents Kasiner Hobby, O Gauge cars, through the freight 
and passenger sets of the Herkimer Tool & Model Works ( which is the 
information and catalog I originally passed on to him) and proceeds on to the 
custom passenger cars and services of their OK Engine Company today. This 
book also tells all about T R Brebeck and his background and model railroad 
knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
There is more to both stories but my one typing finger is sore. The book I 
mentioned was made available to anyone who wanted to buy it. I have more info 
but for now this will have to suffice. Hope I copied all right.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 2:47 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
  ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm thinking perhaps Kasiner (then Herkimer, then 
  OK).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From a Fall 1958 copy of "Model Trains" that I 
  recently got because it had a big Varney Berkshire review, I remembered this 
  new product news ("Model Trains Inspection Pit section) on Herkimer 
  cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      "Here is the Most Complete line of passenger cars 
  available for the streamlined era.  The cars can be mixed with Athearn, 
  Mantua and Penn Line cars to make up interesting trains, but this all depends 
  on how your reilroad is operated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Herkimer is best known in the model airplane 
  motor field.  Its line of model railroad cars was originally known to HO 
  gaugers (and O gaugers too at that time) as the Kasiner line of cars.  
  Herkimer also offers an excellent line of train sets.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ..." [the article goes on for about six more 
  paragaphs]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Regardless of whatever cars are in the 
  photos, OK Engines is still making the Kasiner/Herkimer/ OK 
  cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      And they are also into "Vintago HO" judging from 
  their museum page saying they are trying to get one of everything since their 
  beginning in 1937.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      A little poking round yielded
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      "Founded by 
  Norm Kasiner and Bill Kachler in 1947 in Rochester, NY. 
  ..."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I think the Kasiner O gauge cars became part of 
  the AMT line.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 11:17 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
    ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        Just a guess here, but are they OK Models?

                                                                                                                                                                                      I 
          think they still make cars like this.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- 
          On Sat, 6/13/09, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> 
          wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
            jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: 
            [vintageHO] Guess by who ???? [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 
            Saturday, June 13, 2009, 11:13 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            I'm sending some pictures to have a little fun to see if anyone 
            can ID. I'm 95% sure I know although I don't know if the company 
            only sold them or manufactured them. FORGET THE TRUCKS ON THEM. They 
            are just Athearn Heavyweight trucks that I threw on because I had 
            nothing else at the time. I now have enough Blue Line, American 
            Beauty or Central Valley trucks to put on them but to lazy to do. I 
            have no idea what the right trucks would be as none came with the 
            cars. they were assembled when I found them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                             
            The bodies are extruded metal (Aluminum perhaps). I have 6 
            cars.  2 Baggage, 1 RPO, 2 Coaches and one unknown to 
            me ( Diner or sleeper perhaps). I have no idea what others might 
            have been made. The floor is metal with plastic detail parts you put 
            on. The ends and doors are plastic also. The only instruction sheet 
            I have shows you where to put the under floor detail parts. Some of 
            the parts with them look like roof detail. I didn't send pictures of 
            the coach as I just saw the name is on a tag under it and 
            visible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
            Have some fun and if no one guesses I tell you the 
            seller/manufacturer . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
            Jim 
    H 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10935
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                          Sorry Chuck, not Mantua. Try 
again.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 2:47 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
  ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      They look like 
  Mantua units, but mine have full skirts and no under 
  body details like these do.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at 
  http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 12:14 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Guess by who ???? [4 
  Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      [Attachment(s) from jim heckard 
  included below] 


                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  I'm sending some pictures to have a little fun to see if anyone can ID. 
  I'm 95% sure I know although I don't know if the company only sold them or 
  manufactured them. FORGET THE TRUCKS ON THEM. They are just Athearn 
  Heavyweight trucks that I threw on because I had nothing else at the time. I 
  now have enough Blue Line, American Beauty or Central Valley trucks 
  to put on them but to lazy to do. I have no idea what the right trucks would 
  be as none came with the cars. they were assembled when I found 
  them.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             
  The bodies are extruded metal (Aluminum perhaps). I have 6 cars.  
  2 Baggage, 1 RPO, 2 Coaches and one unknown to me ( Diner or sleeper 
  perhaps). I have no idea what others might have been made. The floor is metal 
  with plastic detail parts you put on. The ends and doors are plastic also. The 
  only instruction sheet I have shows you where to put the under floor detail 
  parts. Some of the parts with them look like roof detail. I didn't send 
  pictures of the coach as I just saw the name is on a tag under it and 
  visible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
  Have some fun and if no one guesses I tell you the 
  seller/manufacturer . 
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
  Jim 
  H 
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10936
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                           W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       Sorry but no cigar. All good guesses but 
NO.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 3:31 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Guess by who 
  ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H. I don't believe these are Kastner or older Herkimer/OK as they 
  had smooth roofs, not fluted roofs. Also the Kastner and early Heerikmer cars 
  had plain sheet metal ends, and I belive all before the current production had 
  masonite floors with wood details. Rail Chief also had extruded aluminumn full 
  length cars, but I'd have to pull my one example out later to compare it to. I 
  do remember that Rail Chief had cast ends, but do not remember that a 
  vestibule was modeled. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      On your cars, the roofs have the Budd fluting, 
  but in addition, seem to have the two logitudinal Budd strips as well. So 
  combining that roof detail, with the cast vestibules similar to AMT/Kusan 
  cars, add a metal floor, my guess would be that they could be the original 
  Mantua extruded aluminum cars. Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I'm sending some pictures to have a little fun to see if anyone can 
  ID. I'm 95% sure I know although I don't know if the company only sold them or 
  manufactured them. FORGET THE TRUCKS ON THEM. They are just Athearn 
  Heavyweight trucks that I threw on because I had nothing else at the time. I 
  now have enough Blue Line, American Beauty or Central Valley trucks to put on 
  them but to lazy to do. I have no idea what the right trucks would be as none 
  came with the cars. they were assembled when I found them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  The bodies are extruded metal (Aluminum perhaps). I have 6 cars. 2 Baggage, 1 
  RPO, 2 Coaches and one unknown to me ( Diner or sleeper perhaps). I have no 
  idea what others might have been made. The floor is metal with plastic detail 
  parts you put on. The ends and doors are plastic also. The only instruction 
  sheet I have shows you where to put the under floor detail parts. Some of the 
  parts with them look like roof detail. I didn't send pictures of the coach as 
  I just saw the name is on a tag under it and visible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Have 
  some fun and if no one guesses I tell you the seller/manufacturer . 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10937
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: PSM Diesel at MCOR NMRA show today
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Saw this at a show today.  Thought some might be interested.  It is for sale, I believe, for $50.00 I also took pictures of the instructions if anyone is interested.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10938
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Guess who clue
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      To All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
 Not made by an American company. Think foreign but think north of the 
border. Think Canada. Cars might actually be a Canadian design. I'm not smart 
enough to know. This should cut the search down considerably.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10939
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Guess by Who
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Some more clues in the way of pictures. REMEMBER DON'T LOOK AT THE TRUCKS AS 
THEY ARE JUST ATHEARN HEAVYWEIGHT AND WRONG.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
The picture is of the coach which I didn't send before. You can see the added 
detail under the metal floor which by the way has prepunched holes. Not all are 
used. It is dependant on the type of car.. Another picture is some of the 
silver/gray plastic parts for roof and underfloor detailing. Last picture should 
show the roof detail better.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10940
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Stephen Neubaum" <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 1:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Just a guess here, but are they OK Models?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I think they still make cars like this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sides have too much relief to be Herkimer/OK.  My guess is AMT/KMT
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10941
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Moderator note (was Re: [vintageHO] PSM Diesel at MCOR NMRA show tod
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Please only post .jpg files as attachments.  That's a special Corel file 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
that most of us can't open.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 3:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] PSM Diesel at MCOR NMRA show today [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Saw this at a show today.  Thought some might be interested.  It is for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sale, I believe, for $50.00 I also took pictures of the instructions if 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> anyone is interested.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10942
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Sorry Don.  Go north young man.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 5:25 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
  ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "Stephen Neubaum" <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: 
  <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 
  Saturday, June 13, 2009 1:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
  ????

                                                                                                                                                                                      Just a guess here, but are they OK Models?

                                                                                                                                                                                      I think they 
  still make cars like this.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sides have too much 
  relief to be Herkimer/OK. My guess is AMT/KMT

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don 
  Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                      Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10943
						From: toytrain13
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Stripping old Hobbytown
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks Jim W. I have done a lot of tinplate restorations, and found that for tinplace (that is, tinplated sheet steel) prewar Lionel trains I could put the item into boiling water with Tide (in a cylindrical concrete test cylinder can) and the paint would just float right off. I never found this to work too well with die cast items, however. I used a hot plate to heat the water, as I wouldn't dare try this on my wife's stove, what with the water/Tide occasionally boiling over!  Regards- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10944
						From: bayerw@comcast.net
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck, aren't the Mantua cars all 'shorties', i.e. 72' cars?
                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter



                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 2:47:39 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Guess by who ????

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
            

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      






                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      They look like Mantua units, but mine have full skirts and
no under body details like these do.
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009
12:14 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Guess by who
???? [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included
below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm
sending some pictures to have a little fun to see if anyone can ID. I'm
95% sure I know although I don't know if the company only sold them or
manufactured them. FORGET THE TRUCKS ON THEM. They are just Athearn Heavyweight
trucks that I threw on because I had nothing else at the time. I now have
enough Blue Line, American Beauty or Central Valley
trucks to put on them but to lazy to do. I have no idea what the right trucks
would be as none came with the cars. they were assembled when I found them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                             The bodies are extruded
metal (Aluminum perhaps). I have 6 cars.  2 Baggage, 1 RPO, 2
Coaches and one unknown to me ( Diner or sleeper perhaps). I have no idea what
others might have been made. The floor is metal with plastic detail parts you
put on. The ends and doors are plastic also. The only instruction sheet I have
shows you where to put the under floor detail parts. Some of the parts with
them look like roof detail. I didn't send pictures of the coach as I just saw
the name is on a tag under it and visible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                
Have some fun and if no one guesses I tell you the seller/manufacturer.

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      




	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
	
	




	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10945
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Moderator note (was Re: [vintageHO] PSM Diesel at MCOR NMRA show tod
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Not an option I have once the photo has be edited.  I posted the photos in the photo folder NVRR49.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Please only post .jpg files as attachments.  That's a special Corel file 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that most of us can't open.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 3:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] PSM Diesel at MCOR NMRA show today [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Saw this at a show today.  Thought some might be interested.  It is for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > sale, I believe, for $50.00 I also took pictures of the instructions if 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > anyone is interested.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10946
						From: Dennis
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: John Hagen: Mantua motors
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      John:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
All my og email is getting hung up at my ISP.  I had replied that, yes, I'd like one or more of those Mantua motors you offered.  We can connect again as soon as my ISP is back running.  Am posting this direct at the Yahoo site.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks, Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10947
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, the
 Mantua cars are ‘shorties’ and Jim’s cars
look to be full length.  But the ends and windows are very similar to the
 Mantua cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bayerw@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 6:05
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by
who ????
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck, aren't the
 Mantua cars all
'shorties', i.e. 72' cars?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10948
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I think I've got it.  But not because I 
knew.  Because of a lot of thrashing on the internet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I vote for "Grant Hobbycraft and Toys 
Limited".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      With the search string of " "metal 
passenger car" and "in canada" " on Yahoo I got only 4 hits.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6834&#19216 seems 
to show it and I shamelessly grabbed a photo off it and attached it (I hope) to 
this messasge.  If that didn't work, you can see it at the web page.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The discussion at that page mentions a floor 
diagram at HO seeker.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I looked that up and it isn't under "Grant" but 
under "Hobby Craft" (even though the name seems to have actually been one word 
in this case, not two) which puts you in the HOseeker "Miscellaneous" section 
at:  http://www.hoseeker.org/hobbycraft/hobbycraftpassengerfloorplans.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I could find scant information on "Grant 
Hobbycraft" and got only four hits searching for that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.87thscale.info/manufacturers_list_part-1.htm (which 
focuses on HO vehicles) says "Distributor, sold Wiking models in Grant packaging 
in the 1950s."  (This page has a looooong list of HO vehicle 
manufacturers.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.ovar.ca/Interchange/mar2004.pdf shows 
a picture of one on page 7.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://meinewikinger.wikispaces.com/Wiking+im+Ausland is 
about Wiking cars and has only a passing reference - in 
German 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      And the aforementioned Tyco collector 
page.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 1:12 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
  ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck, Steve, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               
  Your guess about the pictures I sent being Kasiner, Herkimer or OK 
  streamliners is not right.  However your mention of these companies 
  allows me to share some information that might be helpful.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               In 1996 I was 
  in touch with T R (Ted) Brebeck, Director of Operations and owner of OK 
  streamliners. He had taken over his families business and started to reproduce 
  the OK streamliner line. I want to share a letter he sent me. I wish I could 
  scan it but must type it here.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  November 25, 1996
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             Dear 
  Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
   Thank You for all the information and the old catalog from 1958. My 
  family had been in the model business ( they sold model aircraft gas motors 
  also) for 21 years at that time (1958). We celebrate our 60th year next 
  year.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            The diaphragm 
  rubber that you sent was a carry over from Kasiner which OK used for only one 
  year until our new casted car ends were ready. I have been thinking of making 
  some of those old rubbers for collectors who have those old sheet metal ends. 
  if you would let me have this one, I might come up with something for you. ( 
  My Note  He did remake them, send me some and also started selling 
  them)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            Kasiner did have 
  their own HO trucks and very good ones too. ( My Note   I have 
  pictures of these if anyone wants). They introduced a sprung HO truck in 1949 
  and put it in their kits at that time. After a fire destroyed most of their 
  production line in 1950, Kasiner was pretty much only a wholesaler with a 
  hobby shop in the front. Some times items were sold off the shelf but Kasiner 
  cars were out of production until bought out by OK in 1954.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              Most 
  of the records,drawings and production rights from the 1954 deal still exist. 
  We will be using a lot of this to  get back in  the "O" scale market 
  and adding to the HO accessories. For 23 years now OK Engine Company has been 
  and will be a source of collectible items as well as new and improved 
  fare.   (There is more but to much to type)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
  Yours truly
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
  T. R. (Ted) Brebeck
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
  I also want to pass along that in the Summer of 1999 I was offered a 
  First Edition autographed copy of " Herkie Rides the Rails which was written 
  by T R Brebeck. It was described as the definitive and annotated story of OK 
  Streamliner. Contains illustrations. informative listings and information. 
  From 1938 forward the book presents Kasiner Hobby, O Gauge cars, through the 
  freight and passenger sets of the Herkimer Tool & Model Works ( which is 
  the information and catalog I originally passed on to him) and proceeds on to 
  the custom passenger cars and services of their OK Engine Company today. 
  This book also tells all about T R Brebeck and his background and model 
  railroad knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  There is more to both stories but my one typing finger is sore. The book I 
  mentioned was made available to anyone who wanted to buy it. I have more info 
  but for now this will have to suffice. Hope I copied all right.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 2:47 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
    ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm thinking perhaps Kasiner (then Herkimer, 
    then OK).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      From a Fall 1958 copy of "Model Trains" that I 
    recently got because it had a big Varney Berkshire review, I remembered this 
    new product news ("Model Trains Inspection Pit section) on Herkimer 
    cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      "Here is the Most Complete line of passenger 
    cars available for the streamlined era.  The cars can be mixed with 
    Athearn, Mantua and Penn Line cars to make up interesting trains, but this 
    all depends on how your reilroad is operated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Herkimer is best known in the model airplane 
    motor field.  Its line of model railroad cars was originally known to 
    HO gaugers (and O gaugers too at that time) as the Kasiner line of 
    cars.  Herkimer also offers an excellent line of train 
    sets.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ..." [the article goes on for about six more 
    paragaphs]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Regardless of whatever cars are in the 
    photos, OK Engines is still making the Kasiner/Herkimer/ OK 
    cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      And they are also into "Vintago HO" judging 
    from their museum page saying they are trying to get one of everything since 
    their beginning in 1937.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      A little poking round yielded
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      "Founded by 
    Norm Kasiner and Bill Kachler in 1947 in Rochester, NY. 
    ..."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      I think the Kasiner O gauge cars became part of 
    the AMT line.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 11:17 
      AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
      ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          Just a guess here, but are they OK Models?

                                                                                                                                                                                      I 
            think they still make cars like this.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve 
            Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Sat, 6/13/09, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> 
            wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim 
              heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: 
              [vintageHO] Guess by who ???? [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 
              Saturday, June 13, 2009, 11:13 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                
              I'm sending some pictures to have a little fun to see if 
              anyone can ID. I'm 95% sure I know although I don't know if the 
              company only sold them or manufactured them. FORGET THE TRUCKS ON 
              THEM. They are just Athearn Heavyweight trucks that I threw on 
              because I had nothing else at the time. I now have enough Blue 
              Line, American Beauty or Central Valley trucks to put on them but 
              to lazy to do. I have no idea what the right trucks would be as 
              none came with the cars. they were assembled when I found 
              them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
                                                                                                                                                                                             
              The bodies are extruded metal (Aluminum perhaps). I have 6 
              cars.  2 Baggage, 1 RPO, 2 Coaches and one unknown 
              to me ( Diner or sleeper perhaps). I have no idea what others 
              might have been made. The floor is metal with plastic detail parts 
              you put on. The ends and doors are plastic also. The only 
              instruction sheet I have shows you where to put the under floor 
              detail parts. Some of the parts with them look like roof detail. I 
              didn't send pictures of the coach as I just saw the name is on a 
              tag under it and visible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
              Have some fun and if no one guesses I tell you the 
              seller/manufacturer . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
              Jim 
      H 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10949
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ???? [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                          Chuck K,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                  We 
have a winner.You win the prize. A big Hoorah.  I only know the name as 
Hobby Craft of Canada.That's the name given to me when I bought them.The sheet 
on HO seeker is mine. It is the only piece of paper I have on them. I had 
seen one ad and Grant Hobbycraft of Canada also sounds right. I've also heard it 
called Grant's Hobby Craft. I never heard the "and Toys Unlimited.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                 I was 
actually hoping to find more on the cars myself. Who actually made them 
? How many types of cars ? Did Hobby Craft just sell them. I was told they 
are copies of cars made for either the CN or CP railroads but don't remember 
which. I can't put a date on them. I bought them almost 20 years ago at a train 
show. The seller didn't know anymore either.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               I thought this 
guessing might prove fun. If I didn't say Canada would have you been able to 
find it ? Still something new to know. I do have to find what trucks 
they used.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                Was the 
comment about Kasiner, Herkimer, OK Streamliners and the new family member owner 
interesting ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 7:52 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
  ???? [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I think I've got it.  But not because I 
  knew.  Because of a lot of thrashing on the internet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I vote for "Grant Hobbycraft and Toys 
  Limited".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      With the search string of " "metal 
  passenger car" and "in canada" " on Yahoo I got only 4 hits.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.tycoforu ms.com/tyco/ forum/topic. asp?TOPIC_ ID=6834&#19216 seems 
  to show it and I shamelessly grabbed a photo off it and attached it (I hope) 
  to this messasge.  If that didn't work, you can see it at the web page.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      The discussion at that page mentions a floor 
  diagram at HO seeker.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I looked that up and it isn't under "Grant" but 
  under "Hobby Craft" (even though the name seems to have actually been one word 
  in this case, not two) which puts you in the HOseeker "Miscellaneous" section 
  at:  http://www.hoseeker .org/hobbycraft/ hobbycraftpassen gerfloorplans. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I could find scant information on "Grant 
  Hobbycraft" and got only four hits searching for that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.87thscal e.info/manufactu rers_list_ part-1.htm (which 
  focuses on HO vehicles) says "Distributor, sold Wiking models in Grant 
  packaging in the 1950s."  (This page has a looooong list of HO vehicle 
  manufacturers. )
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.ovar. ca/Interchange/ mar2004.pdf shows 
  a picture of one on page 7.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://meinewikinge r.wikispaces. com/Wiking+ im+Ausland is 
  about Wiking cars and has only a passing reference - in 
  German 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      And the aforementioned Tyco collector 
  page.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 1:12 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
    ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck, Steve, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                               Your guess about 
    the pictures I sent being Kasiner, Herkimer or OK streamliners is not 
    right.  However your mention of these companies allows me to share some 
    information that might be helpful.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                               In 1996 I 
    was in touch with T R (Ted) Brebeck, Director of Operations and owner of OK 
    streamliners. He had taken over his families business and started to 
    reproduce the OK streamliner line. I want to share a letter he sent me. I 
    wish I could scan it but must type it here.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    November 25, 1996
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                             Dear 
    Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
     Thank You for all the information and the old catalog from 1958. My 
    family had been in the model business ( they sold model aircraft gas motors 
    also) for 21 years at that time (1958). We celebrate our 60th year next 
    year.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            The diaphragm 
    rubber that you sent was a carry over from Kasiner which OK used for only 
    one year until our new casted car ends were ready. I have been thinking of 
    making some of those old rubbers for collectors who have those old sheet 
    metal ends. if you would let me have this one, I might come up with 
    something for you. ( My Note  He did remake them, send me some and also 
    started selling them)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            Kasiner did have 
    their own HO trucks and very good ones too. ( My Note   I have 
    pictures of these if anyone wants). They introduced a sprung HO truck in 
    1949 and put it in their kits at that time. After a fire destroyed most of 
    their production line in 1950, Kasiner was pretty much only a wholesaler 
    with a hobby shop in the front. Some times items were sold off the shelf but 
    Kasiner cars were out of production until bought out by OK in 
    1954.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                              Most 
    of the records,drawings and production rights from the 1954 deal still 
    exist. We will be using a lot of this to  get back in  the "O" 
    scale market and adding to the HO accessories. For 23 years now OK Engine 
    Company has been and will be a source of collectible items as well as new 
    and improved fare.   (There is more but to much to 
    type)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
    Yours truly
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
    T. R. (Ted) Brebeck
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
    I also want to pass along that in the Summer of 1999 I was offered a 
    First Edition autographed copy of " Herkie Rides the Rails which was written 
    by T R Brebeck. It was described as the definitive and annotated story of OK 
    Streamliner. Contains illustrations. informative listings and information. 
    From 1938 forward the book presents Kasiner Hobby, O Gauge cars, through the 
    freight and passenger sets of the Herkimer Tool & Model Works ( which is 
    the information and catalog I originally passed on to him) and proceeds on 
    to the custom passenger cars and services of their OK Engine Company 
    today. This book also tells all about T R Brebeck and his background and 
    model railroad knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                      
    There is more to both stories but my one typing finger is sore. The book I 
    mentioned was made available to anyone who wanted to buy it. I have more 
    info but for now this will have to suffice. Hope I copied all 
    right.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 2:47 
      PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
      ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm thinking perhaps Kasiner (then Herkimer, 
      then OK).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      From a Fall 1958 copy of "Model Trains" that 
      I recently got because it had a big Varney Berkshire review, I remembered 
      this new product news ("Model Trains Inspection Pit section) on Herkimer 
      cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      "Here is the Most Complete line of passenger 
      cars available for the streamlined era.  The cars can be mixed with 
      Athearn, Mantua and Penn Line cars to make up interesting trains, but this 
      all depends on how your reilroad is operated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Herkimer is best known in the model airplane 
      motor field.  Its line of model railroad cars was originally known to 
      HO gaugers (and O gaugers too at that time) as the Kasiner line of 
      cars.  Herkimer also offers an excellent line of train 
      sets.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      ..." [the article goes on for about six more 
      paragaphs]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Regardless of whatever cars are in the 
      photos, OK Engines is still making the Kasiner/Herkimer/ OK 
      cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      And they are also into "Vintago HO" judging 
      from their museum page saying they are trying to get one of everything 
      since their beginning in 1937.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      A little poking round yielded
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      "Founded 
      by Norm Kasiner and Bill Kachler in 1947 in Rochester, NY. 
      ..."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      I think the Kasiner O gauge cars became part 
      of the AMT line.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 11:17 
        AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by 
        who ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            Just a guess here, but are they OK Models?

                                                                                                                                                                                      I 
              think they still make cars like this.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve 
              Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Sat, 6/13/09, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> 
              wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim 
                heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: 
                [vintageHO] Guess by who ???? [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 
                Saturday, June 13, 2009, 11:13 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                
                I'm sending some pictures to have a little fun to see if 
                anyone can ID. I'm 95% sure I know although I don't know if the 
                company only sold them or manufactured them. FORGET THE TRUCKS 
                ON THEM. They are just Athearn Heavyweight trucks that I threw 
                on because I had nothing else at the time. I now have enough 
                Blue Line, American Beauty or Central Valley trucks to put on 
                them but to lazy to do. I have no idea what the right trucks 
                would be as none came with the cars. they were assembled when I 
                found them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                             The bodies are 
                extruded metal (Aluminum perhaps). I have 6 cars.  
                2 Baggage, 1 RPO, 2 Coaches and one unknown to me ( 
                Diner or sleeper perhaps). I have no idea what others might have 
                been made. The floor is metal with plastic detail parts you put 
                on. The ends and doors are plastic also. The only instruction 
                sheet I have shows you where to put the under floor detail 
                parts. Some of the parts with them look like roof detail. I 
                didn't send pictures of the coach as I just saw the name is on a 
                tag under it and visible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                Have some fun and if no one guesses I tell you the 
                seller/manufacturer . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
                Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
                Jim 
        H 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10950
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ???? [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      That looks like a match to me.  Good
hunting.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ckinzer@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 7:52
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by
who ???? [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      [Attachment(s) from ckinzer@...
included below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



I
think I've got it.  But not because I knew.  Because of a lot of
thrashing on the internet.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I vote for "Grant Hobbycraft and Toys Limited".
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      With the search string of " "metal
passenger car" and "in
 canada " " on Yahoo I got
only 4 hits.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.tycoforu ms.com/tyco/ forum/topic. asp?TOPIC_ ID=6834&#19216 seems
to show it and I shamelessly grabbed a photo off it and attached it (I hope) to
this messasge.  If that didn't work, you can see it at the web page.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The discussion at that page mentions a floor diagram at HO
seeker.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I looked that up and it isn't under "Grant" but
under "Hobby Craft" (even though the name seems to have actually been
one word in this case, not two) which puts you in the HOseeker
"Miscellaneous" section at:  http://www.hoseeker .org/hobbycraft/ hobbycraftpassen gerfloorplans. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I could find scant information on "Grant
Hobbycraft" and got only four hits searching for that.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.87thscal e.info/manufactu rers_list_ part-1.htm (which
focuses on HO vehicles) says "Distributor, sold Wiking models in Grant
packaging in the 1950s."  (This page has a looooong list of HO
vehicle manufacturers. )
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.ovar. ca/Interchange/ mar2004.pdf shows
a picture of one on page 7.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      http://meinewikinge r.wikispaces. com/Wiking+ im+Ausland is
about Wiking cars and has only a passing reference - in German 
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      And the aforementioned Tyco collector page.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer 
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13,
2009 1:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO]
Guess by who ????
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck, Steve, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                               Your guess
about the pictures I sent being Kasiner, Herkimer or OK streamliners is not
right.  However your mention of these companies allows me to share some
information that might be helpful.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                               In
1996 I was in touch with T R (Ted) Brebeck, Director of Operations and owner of
OK streamliners. He had taken over his families business and started to
reproduce the OK streamliner line. I want to share a letter he sent me. I wish
I could scan it but must type it here.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
November 25, 1996
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                             Dear Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 Thank You for all the information and the old catalog from 1958. My
family had been in the model business ( they sold model aircraft gas motors
also) for 21 years at that time (1958). We celebrate our 60th year next year.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                            The diaphragm rubber that you
sent was a carry over from Kasiner which OK used for only one year until our
new casted car ends were ready. I have been thinking of making some of those
old rubbers for collectors who have those old sheet metal ends. if you would
let me have this one, I might come up with something for you. ( My Note 
He did remake them, send me some and also started selling them)
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                            Kasiner did have their own HO
trucks and very good ones too. ( My Note   I have pictures of these
if anyone wants). They introduced a sprung HO truck in 1949 and put it in their
kits at that time. After a fire destroyed most of their production line in
1950, Kasiner was pretty much only a wholesaler with a hobby shop in the front.
Some times items were sold off the shelf but Kasiner cars were out of
production until bought out by OK in 1954.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                              Most of the
records,drawings and production rights from the 1954 deal still exist. We will
be using a lot of this to  get back in  the "O" scale
market and adding to the HO accessories. For 23 years now OK Engine Company has
been and will be a source of collectible items as well as new and improved
fare.   (There is more but to much to type)
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Yours truly
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
T. R. (Ted) Brebeck
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I also want to pass along that in the Summer of 1999 I was offered a First
Edition autographed copy of " Herkie Rides the Rails which was written by
T R Brebeck. It was described as the definitive and annotated story of OK
Streamliner. Contains illustrations. informative listings and information. From
1938 forward the book presents Kasiner Hobby, O Gauge cars, through the freight
and passenger sets of the Herkimer Tool & Model Works ( which is the
information and catalog I originally passed on to him) and proceeds on to the
custom passenger cars and services of their OK Engine Company today. This
book also tells all about T R Brebeck and his background and model railroad
knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                     
There is more to both stories but my one typing finger is sore. The book I
mentioned was made available to anyone who wanted to buy it. I have more info
but for now this will have to suffice. Hope I copied all right.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      






                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13,
2009 2:47 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO]
Guess by who ????
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm thinking perhaps Kasiner (then Herkimer, then OK).
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From a Fall 1958 copy of "Model Trains" that I
recently got because it had a big Varney Berkshire 
review, I remembered this new product news ("Model Trains Inspection Pit
section) on Herkimer cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      "Here is the Most Complete line of passenger cars
available for the streamlined era.  The cars can be mixed with Athearn,
 Mantua and Penn Line cars
to make up interesting trains, but this all depends on how your reilroad is
operated.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Herkimer is best known in the model airplane motor
field.  Its line of model railroad cars was originally known to HO gaugers
(and O gaugers too at that time) as the Kasiner line of cars.  Herkimer
also offers an excellent line of train sets.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      ..." [the article goes on for about six more paragaphs]
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Regardless of whatever cars are in the photos, OK
Engines is still making the Kasiner/Herkimer/ OK cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      And they are also into "Vintago HO" judging from
their museum page saying they are trying to get one of everything since their
beginning in 1937.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      A little poking round yielded
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      "Founded by Norm Kasiner and Bill Kachler
in 1947 in Rochester ,
 NY . ..."
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I think the Kasiner O gauge cars became part of the AMT
line.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      






                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13,
2009 11:17 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO]
Guess by who ????
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Just a guess here, but are they OK Models?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  I think they still make cars like this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  --- On Sat, 6/13/09, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Subject: [vintageHO] Guess by who ???? [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Date: Saturday, June 13, 2009, 11:13 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm
  sending some pictures to have a little fun to see if anyone can ID. I'm
  95% sure I know although I don't know if the company only sold them or
  manufactured them. FORGET THE TRUCKS ON THEM. They are just Athearn
  Heavyweight trucks that I threw on because I had nothing else at the time. I
  now have enough Blue Line, American Beauty or Central
   Valley trucks to put on them but to lazy to do. I have no idea
  what the right trucks would be as none came with the cars. they were
  assembled when I found them.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             The bodies are
  extruded metal (Aluminum perhaps). I have 6 cars. 
  2 Baggage, 1 RPO, 2 Coaches and one unknown to me ( Diner or
  sleeper perhaps). I have no idea what others might have been made. The floor
  is metal with plastic detail parts you put on. The ends and doors are plastic
  also. The only instruction sheet I have shows you where to put the under
  floor detail parts. Some of the parts with them look like roof detail. I didn't
  send pictures of the coach as I just saw the name is on a tag under it and
  visible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  Have some fun and if no one guesses I tell you the seller/manufacturer .
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
  Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                        		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10951
						From: Walter
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ???? [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 


 
 
 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10952
						From: Nelson
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I remembered your request, and just discovered NWSL has replacements while perusing their PDF files. Their site is really bare-bones and unsearchable.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
This PDF has lists 15 tooth gears for the 1960's RDC... is that what you need? It's second on the list.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.nwsl.com/pdf%20prod%20list/pdf%20prod11.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Jim, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I've got two of the first version Athearn RDCs, one powered and one dummy...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The powered model ran fine till some clumsy oaf who is writing this email 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> took the powered truck apart and lost one of the intermediate gears....
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> anyone have or know of a source for same?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chris B. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10953
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ???? [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Always learning something new. I don't ever remember seeing the Hobby Craft of Canada or Grants Hobby Craft name before, advertisements or the cars.  They are not listed in John Swift's Composite Product Review Index, so they were never reviewed by MR between 1946-1982 or RMC from 1952-1982.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
"Herky Rides the Rails" is a facinating book on the history of the Kasiner and Herkimer cars and how ownership left the family and was brought back decades later. It is great to see a member of the family take such pride in their forebearer's products.  The family even maintains a product museum of the railroad models as well as "OK" model airplane engines; open on appointment in Mohawk, (upstate) New York.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.okengines.com/museum.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
A selection of parts including trucks to restore older Kasiner or Herkimer cars is available as is their complete current line.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jay W.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
PS. Jim, I'm still amazed to learn of that Revell use of the Varney Dockside you showed us a few days back.  Spanagel's book told of Kramer's involvement with Revell, so I guess the agreement was easy to arrange back then.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Chuck K,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>             We have a winner.You win the prize. A big Hoorah.  I only know the name as Hobby Craft of Canada.That's the name given to me when I bought them.The sheet on HO seeker is mine. It is the only piece of paper I have on them. I had seen one ad and Grant Hobbycraft of Canada also sounds right. I've also heard it called Grant's Hobby Craft. I never heard the "and Toys Unlimited.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            I was actually hoping to find more on the cars myself. Who actually made them ? How many types of cars ? Did Hobby Craft just sell them. I was told they are copies of cars made for either the CN or CP railroads but don't remember which. I can't put a date on them. I bought them almost 20 years ago at a train show. The seller didn't know anymore either.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          I thought this guessing might prove fun. If I didn't say Canada would have you been able to find it ? Still something new to know. I do have to find what trucks they used.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>           Was the comment about Kasiner, Herkimer, OK Streamliners and the new family member owner interesting ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                           Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: ckinzer@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 7:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who ???? [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   [Attachment(s) from ckinzer@... included below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   I think I've got it.  But not because I knew.  Because of a lot of thrashing on the internet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   I vote for "Grant Hobbycraft and Toys Limited".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   With the search string of " "metal passenger car" and "in canada" " on Yahoo I got only 4 hits.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6834䬐 seems to show it and I shamelessly grabbed a photo off it and attached it (I hope) to this messasge.  If that didn't work, you can see it at the web page.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   The discussion at that page mentions a floor diagram at HO seeker.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   I looked that up and it isn't under "Grant" but under "Hobby Craft" (even though the name seems to have actually been one word in this case, not two) which puts you in the HOseeker "Miscellaneous" section at:  http://www.hoseeker.org/hobbycraft/hobbycraftpassengerfloorplans.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   I could find scant information on "Grant Hobbycraft" and got only four hits searching for that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   http://www.87thscale.info/manufacturers_list_part-1.htm (which focuses on HO vehicles) says "Distributor, sold Wiking models in Grant packaging in the 1950s."  (This page has a looooong list of HO vehicle manufacturers.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   http://www.ovar.ca/Interchange/mar2004.pdf shows a picture of one on page 7.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   http://meinewikinger.wikispaces.com/Wiking+im+Ausland is about Wiking cars and has only a passing reference - in German 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   And the aforementioned Tyco collector page.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Chuck Kinzer 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 1:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Chuck, Steve, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>              Your guess about the pictures I sent being Kasiner, Herkimer or OK streamliners is not right.  However your mention of these companies allows me to share some information that might be helpful.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>              In 1996 I was in touch with T R (Ted) Brebeck, Director of Operations and owner of OK streamliners. He had taken over his families business and started to reproduce the OK streamliner line. I want to share a letter he sent me. I wish I could scan it but must type it here.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                                                                                 November 25, 1996
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            Dear Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                   Thank You for all the information and the old catalog from 1958. My family had been in the model business ( they sold model aircraft gas motors also) for 21 years at that time (1958). We celebrate our 60th year next year.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>           The diaphragm rubber that you sent was a carry over from Kasiner which OK used for only one year until our new casted car ends were ready. I have been thinking of making some of those old rubbers for collectors who have those old sheet metal ends. if you would let me have this one, I might come up with something for you. ( My Note  He did remake them, send me some and also started selling them)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>           Kasiner did have their own HO trucks and very good ones too. ( My Note   I have pictures of these if anyone wants). They introduced a sprung HO truck in 1949 and put it in their kits at that time. After a fire destroyed most of their production line in 1950, Kasiner was pretty much only a wholesaler with a hobby shop in the front. Some times items were sold off the shelf but Kasiner cars were out of production until bought out by OK in 1954.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>             Most of the records,drawings and production rights from the 1954 deal still exist. We will be using a lot of this to  get back in  the "O" scale market and adding to the HO accessories. For 23 years now OK Engine Company has been and will be a source of collectible items as well as new and improved fare.   (There is more but to much to type)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                       Yours truly
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                        T. R. (Ted) Brebeck
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                    I also want to pass along that in the Summer of 1999 I was offered a First Edition autographed copy of " Herkie Rides the Rails which was written by T R Brebeck. It was described as the definitive and annotated story of OK Streamliner. Contains illustrations. informative listings and information. From 1938 forward the book presents Kasiner Hobby, O Gauge cars, through the freight and passenger sets of the Herkimer Tool & Model Works ( which is the information and catalog I originally passed on to him) and proceeds on to the custom passenger cars and services of their OK Engine Company today. This book also tells all about T R Brebeck and his background and model railroad knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                     There is more to both stories but my one typing finger is sore. The book I mentioned was made available to anyone who wanted to buy it. I have more info but for now this will have to suffice. Hope I copied all right.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>              
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       From: ckinzer@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 2:47 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       I'm thinking perhaps Kasiner (then Herkimer, then OK).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       From a Fall 1958 copy of "Model Trains" that I recently got because it had a big Varney Berkshire review, I remembered this new product news ("Model Trains Inspection Pit section) on Herkimer cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       "Here is the Most Complete line of passenger cars available for the streamlined era.  The cars can be mixed with Athearn, Mantua and Penn Line cars to make up interesting trains, but this all depends on how your reilroad is operated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Herkimer is best known in the model airplane motor field.  Its line of model railroad cars was originally known to HO gaugers (and O gaugers too at that time) as the Kasiner line of cars.  Herkimer also offers an excellent line of train sets.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       ..." [the article goes on for about six more paragaphs]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Regardless of whatever cars are in the photos, OK Engines is still making the Kasiner/Herkimer/OK cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       http://www.okengines.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       And they are also into "Vintago HO" judging from their museum page saying they are trying to get one of everything since their beginning in 1937.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       http://www.okengines.com/museum.shtml
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       A little poking round yielded
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       http://www.spikesys.com/Modelrr/faq1.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       "Founded by Norm Kasiner and Bill Kachler in 1947 in Rochester, NY. ..."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       I think the Kasiner O gauge cars became part of the AMT line.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         From: Stephen Neubaum 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 11:17 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>               Just a guess here, but are they OK Models?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>               I think they still make cars like this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>               -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>               --- On Sat, 6/13/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                 From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                 Subject: [vintageHO] Guess by who ???? [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                 To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                 Date: Saturday, June 13, 2009, 11:13 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                 All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                           I'm sending some pictures to have a little fun to see if anyone can ID. I'm 95% sure I know although I don't know if the company only sold them or manufactured them. FORGET THE TRUCKS ON THEM. They are just Athearn Heavyweight trucks that I threw on because I had nothing else at the time. I now have enough Blue Line, American Beauty or Central Valley trucks to put on them but to lazy to do. I have no idea what the right trucks would be as none came with the cars. they were assembled when I found them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                        The bodies are extruded metal (Aluminum perhaps). I have 6 cars.  2 Baggage, 1 RPO, 2 Coaches and one unknown to me ( Diner or sleeper perhaps). I have no idea what others might have been made. The floor is metal with plastic detail parts you put on. The ends and doors are plastic also. The only instruction sheet I have shows you where to put the under floor detail parts. Some of the parts with them look like roof detail. I didn't send pictures of the coach as I just saw the name is on a tag under it and visible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                            Have some fun and if no one guesses I tell you the seller/manufacturer . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10954
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, it says "GRANT HOBBYCRAFT AND TOYS LIMITED" 
on the box in the photo.  Of course, the name could have been changed 
before and/or after.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The "Canada" clue definitely made all the 
difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, the comment about OK engines company was 
interesting.  You can order their "Herky Rides the Rails" from their 
site.  I remembered bidding, and losing, for one on ebay.  I then 
looked around elsewhere for one and found their site.  I can't remember if 
I bought one.  I think I did.  But my place isn't orderly enough to 
find it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck K.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 5:12 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
  ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          Chuck K,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  We have a winner.You win the prize. A big Hoorah.  I only know the name 
  as Hobby Craft of Canada.That' s the name given to me when I bought 
  them.The sheet on HO seeker is mine. It is the only piece of paper I have on 
  them. I had seen one ad and Grant Hobbycraft of Canada also sounds right. 
  I've also heard it called Grant's Hobby Craft. I never heard the "and Toys 
  Unlimited.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 I was 
  actually hoping to find more on the cars myself. Who actually made them 
  ? How many types of cars ? Did Hobby Craft just sell them. I was told 
  they are copies of cars made for either the CN or CP railroads but don't 
  remember which. I can't put a date on them. I bought them almost 20 years ago 
  at a train show. The seller didn't know anymore either.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               I thought 
  this guessing might prove fun. If I didn't say Canada would have you been able 
  to find it ? Still something new to know. I do have to find what 
  trucks they used.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Was the 
  comment about Kasiner, Herkimer, OK Streamliners and the new family member 
  owner interesting ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 7:52 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
    ???? [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      I think I've got it.  But not because I 
    knew.  Because of a lot of thrashing on the internet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      I vote for "Grant Hobbycraft and Toys 
    Limited".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      With the search string of " "metal 
    passenger car" and "in canada" " on Yahoo I got only 4 hits.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.tycoforu ms.com/tyco/ forum/topic. asp?TOPIC_ ID=6834&#19216 seems 
    to show it and I shamelessly grabbed a photo off it and attached it (I hope) 
    to this messasge.  If that didn't work, you can see it at the web page.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      The discussion at that page mentions a floor 
    diagram at HO seeker.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      I looked that up and it isn't under "Grant" but 
    under "Hobby Craft" (even though the name seems to have actually been one 
    word in this case, not two) which puts you in the HOseeker "Miscellaneous" 
    section at:  http://www.hoseeker .org/hobbycraft/ hobbycraftpassen gerfloorplans. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      I could find scant information on "Grant 
    Hobbycraft" and got only four hits searching for that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.87thscal e.info/manufactu rers_list_ part-1.htm (which 
    focuses on HO vehicles) says "Distributor, sold Wiking models in Grant 
    packaging in the 1950s."  (This page has a looooong list of HO vehicle 
    manufacturers. )
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.ovar. ca/Interchange/ mar2004.pdf shows 
    a picture of one on page 7.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://meinewikinge r.wikispaces. com/Wiking+ im+Ausland is 
    about Wiking cars and has only a passing reference - in 
    German 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      And the aforementioned Tyco collector 
    page.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 1:12 
      PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
      ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck, Steve, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                               Your guess 
      about the pictures I sent being Kasiner, Herkimer or OK streamliners is 
      not right.  However your mention of these companies allows me to 
      share some information that might be helpful.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                               In 1996 I 
      was in touch with T R (Ted) Brebeck, Director of Operations and owner of 
      OK streamliners. He had taken over his families business and started to 
      reproduce the OK streamliner line. I want to share a letter he sent me. I 
      wish I could scan it but must type it here.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      November 25, 1996
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                             Dear 
      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
       Thank You for all the information and the old catalog from 1958. My 
      family had been in the model business ( they sold model aircraft gas 
      motors also) for 21 years at that time (1958). We celebrate our 60th year 
      next year.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                            The diaphragm 
      rubber that you sent was a carry over from Kasiner which OK used for only 
      one year until our new casted car ends were ready. I have been thinking of 
      making some of those old rubbers for collectors who have those old sheet 
      metal ends. if you would let me have this one, I might come up with 
      something for you. ( My Note  He did remake them, send me some and 
      also started selling them)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                            Kasiner did 
      have their own HO trucks and very good ones too. ( My Note   I 
      have pictures of these if anyone wants). They introduced a sprung HO truck 
      in 1949 and put it in their kits at that time. After a fire destroyed most 
      of their production line in 1950, Kasiner was pretty much only a 
      wholesaler with a hobby shop in the front. Some times items were sold off 
      the shelf but Kasiner cars were out of production until bought out by OK 
      in 1954.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                              
      Most of the records,drawings and production rights from the 1954 deal 
      still exist. We will be using a lot of this to  get back in  the 
      "O" scale market and adding to the HO accessories. For 23 years now OK 
      Engine Company has been and will be a source of collectible items as well 
      as new and improved fare.   (There is more but to much to 
      type)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
      Yours truly
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
      T. R. (Ted) Brebeck
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
      I also want to pass along that in the Summer of 1999 I was offered a 
      First Edition autographed copy of " Herkie Rides the Rails which was 
      written by T R Brebeck. It was described as the definitive and annotated 
      story of OK Streamliner. Contains illustrations. informative listings and 
      information. From 1938 forward the book presents Kasiner Hobby, O Gauge 
      cars, through the freight and passenger sets of the Herkimer Tool & 
      Model Works ( which is the information and catalog I originally passed on 
      to him) and proceeds on to the custom passenger cars and services of 
      their OK Engine Company today. This book also tells all about T R Brebeck 
      and his background and model railroad knowledge.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                      
      There is more to both stories but my one typing finger is sore. The book I 
      mentioned was made available to anyone who wanted to buy it. I have more 
      info but for now this will have to suffice. Hope I copied all 
      right.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 2:47 
        PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by 
        who ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm thinking perhaps Kasiner (then 
        Herkimer, then OK).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      From a Fall 1958 copy of "Model Trains" 
        that I recently got because it had a big Varney Berkshire review, I 
        remembered this new product news ("Model Trains Inspection Pit section) 
        on Herkimer cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      "Here is the Most Complete line of 
        passenger cars available for the streamlined era.  The cars can be 
        mixed with Athearn, Mantua and Penn Line cars to make up interesting 
        trains, but this all depends on how your reilroad is 
        operated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Herkimer is best known in the model 
        airplane motor field.  Its line of model railroad cars was 
        originally known to HO gaugers (and O gaugers too at that time) as the 
        Kasiner line of cars.  Herkimer also offers an excellent line of 
        train sets.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      ..." [the article goes on for about six 
        more paragaphs]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Regardless of whatever cars are in the 
        photos, OK Engines is still making the Kasiner/Herkimer/ OK 
        cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      And they are also into "Vintago HO" judging 
        from their museum page saying they are trying to get one of everything 
        since their beginning in 1937.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      A little poking round yielded
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      "Founded by Norm Kasiner and Bill Kachler in 1947 
        in Rochester, NY. ..."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      I think the Kasiner O gauge cars became 
        part of the AMT line.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 
          11:17 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by 
          who ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              Just a guess here, but are they OK 
                Models?

                                                                                                                                                                                      I think they still make cars like 
                this.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Sat, 6/13/09, jim 
                heckard <jimheck@losch. net> 
                wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim 
                  heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: 
                  [vintageHO] Guess by who ???? [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 
                  Saturday, June 13, 2009, 11:13 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
                  I'm sending some pictures to have a little fun to see if 
                  anyone can ID. I'm 95% sure I know although I don't know if 
                  the company only sold them or manufactured them. FORGET THE 
                  TRUCKS ON THEM. They are just Athearn Heavyweight trucks that 
                  I threw on because I had nothing else at the time. I now have 
                  enough Blue Line, American Beauty or Central Valley trucks to 
                  put on them but to lazy to do. I have no idea what the right 
                  trucks would be as none came with the cars. they were 
                  assembled when I found them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                             The bodies are 
                  extruded metal (Aluminum perhaps). I have 6 cars.  
                  2 Baggage, 1 RPO, 2 Coaches and one unknown to me ( 
                  Diner or sleeper perhaps). I have no idea what others might 
                  have been made. The floor is metal with plastic detail parts 
                  you put on. The ends and doors are plastic also. The only 
                  instruction sheet I have shows you where to put the under 
                  floor detail parts. Some of the parts with them look like roof 
                  detail. I didn't send pictures of the coach as I just saw the 
                  name is on a tag under it and visible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                  Have some fun and if no one guesses I tell you the 
                  seller/manufacturer . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
                  Jim 
          H 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10955
						From: Nelson
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: NWSL replacement gearbox for Athearn 4-6-2 and 0-6-0
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      There was a long discussion of the Athearn Pacifics a while ago, and I just discovered that NWSL has a replacement gearbox for them and the 0-6-0 while poring over their site. I don't think this was mentioned.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
There are two different gearboxes -- one for a replacement motor, and one for the original. Neither is cheap, and the gearbox that goes with the original motor is almost $50.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.nwsl.com/pdf%20prod%20list/pdf%20prod10.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.nwsl.com/Catalog/pg059-cat4-31-v0605.pdf
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I guess this doesn't solve the split axle problem unless the geared axle is the only defective one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Their tutorials section has a number of interesting rebuilds.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.nwsl.com/tutorials.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10956
						From: Walter
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 


 
 
 
 
 

 

 

 


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10957
						From: Walter J. Bayer II
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Walter" <bayerw@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don't know what happened to the messages I wrote. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I wrote, twice, that I had acquired a Grant Hobbycraft shortie coach that looks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> like, and was held out to be, a customized Mantua shortie coach. It
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> resembles Jim H's only in sharing those plastic ends. The body looks to all
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the world like a Mantua coach with the skirts cut off and detail parts of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the same plastic added. The underbody details look like Walthers metal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> castings. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Once we have unpacked, and I can find it, I'll post a photo or two. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Walter 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Of Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 9:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Guess by who ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I think I've got it.  But not because I knew.  Because of a lot of thrashing
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> on the internet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I vote for "Grant Hobbycraft and Toys Limited".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> With the search string of " "metal passenger car" and "in canada" " on Yahoo
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I got only 4 hits.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.tycoforu
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> <http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6834䬐>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ms.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6834䬐 seems to show it and I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> shamelessly grabbed a photo off it and attached it (I hope) to this
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> messasge.  If that didn't work, you can see it at the web page.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The discussion at that page mentions a floor diagram at HO seeker.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I looked that up and it isn't under "Grant" but under "Hobby Craft" (even
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> though the name seems to have actually been one word in this case, not two)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> which puts you in the HOseeker "Miscellaneous" section at:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.hoseeker
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> <http://www.hoseeker.org/hobbycraft/hobbycraftpassengerfloorplans.jpg>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> .org/hobbycraft/hobbycraftpassengerfloorplans.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I could find scant information on "Grant Hobbycraft" and got only four hits
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> searching for that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.87thscal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> <http://www.87thscale.info/manufacturers_list_part-1.htm>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> e.info/manufacturers_list_part-1.htm (which focuses on HO vehicles) says
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> "Distributor, sold Wiking models in Grant packaging in the 1950s."  (This
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> page has a looooong list of HO vehicle manufacturers.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.ovar. <http://www.ovar.ca/Interchange/mar2004.pdf>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ca/Interchange/mar2004.pdf shows a picture of one on page 7.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://meinewikinge <http://meinewikinger.wikispaces.com/Wiking+im+Ausland>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> r.wikispaces.com/Wiking+im+Ausland is about Wiking cars and has only a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> passing reference - in German 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> And the aforementioned Tyco collector page.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10958
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I never thought of them.  Grant advertised both CN smooth side cars and CP 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
rib sides, of which yours must be the latter.  They also advertised a "GMD" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
F unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 7:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Chuck K,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
            We have a winner.You win the prize. A big Hoorah.  I only know 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the name as Hobby Craft of Canada.That's the name given to me when I bought 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
them.The sheet on HO seeker is mine. It is the only piece of paper I have on 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
them. I had seen one ad and Grant Hobbycraft of Canada also sounds right. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I've also heard it called Grant's Hobby Craft. I never heard the "and Toys 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Unlimited.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
           I was actually hoping to find more on the cars myself. Who 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
actually made them ? How many types of cars ? Did Hobby Craft just sell 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
them. I was told they are copies of cars made for either the CN or CP 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
railroads but don't remember which. I can't put a date on them. I bought 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
them almost 20 years ago at a train show. The seller didn't know anymore 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
either.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
         I thought this guessing might prove fun. If I didn't say Canada 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
would have you been able to find it ? Still something new to know. I do have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to find what trucks they used.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          Was the comment about Kasiner, Herkimer, OK Streamliners and the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
new family member owner interesting ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                          Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
H 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10959
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                            Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                Somewhere I 
had heard they had an F unit. I think it was part of the only ad I ever 
saw.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 11:04 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
  ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I never thought of them. Grant advertised both CN smooth side cars and CP 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      rib sides, of which yours must be the latter. They also advertised a "GMD" 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      F unit.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                      Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 
  Saturday, June 13, 2009 7:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
  ????

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck K,

                                                                                                                                                                                      We have a winner.You win the prize. A big Hoorah. 
  I only know 
                                                                                                                                                                                      the name as Hobby Craft of Canada.That' s the name given 
  to me when I bought 
                                                                                                                                                                                      them.The sheet on HO seeker is mine. It is the only 
  piece of paper I have on 
                                                                                                                                                                                      them. I had seen one ad and Grant Hobbycraft of 
  Canada also sounds right. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      I've also heard it called Grant's Hobby Craft. I 
  never heard the "and Toys 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Unlimited.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I was actually hoping to find 
  more on the cars myself. Who 
                                                                                                                                                                                      actually made them ? How many types of cars ? 
  Did Hobby Craft just sell 
                                                                                                                                                                                      them. I was told they are copies of cars made 
  for either the CN or CP 
                                                                                                                                                                                      railroads but don't remember which. I can't put a 
  date on them. I bought 
                                                                                                                                                                                      them almost 20 years ago at a train show. The 
  seller didn't know anymore 
                                                                                                                                                                                      either.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I thought this guessing might 
  prove fun. If I didn't say Canada 
                                                                                                                                                                                      would have you been able to find it ? 
  Still something new to know. I do have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      to find what trucks they 
  used.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Was the comment about Kasiner, Herkimer, OK Streamliners and the 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      new family member owner interesting ?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                      H

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10960
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 6/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Another one....
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      



								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10961
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Another one....
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               I looked at the 
picture you sent of the Ebay HO E-8 very quickly as I have to leave. The engine 
looks to have the Dallas Model Craft E unit cast brass nose and the back piece 
too. However I think the sheet brass roof and the sheet brass sides 
are Crescent E unit parts. The wood frame seems to fit what I feel is a 
modified engine. Both DMC and Crescent had single truck drives (Dallas Model 
Craft later had a duel drive) but both had different types of brass 
frames.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
Lets see how close I am for taking a quick look.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 3:07 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Another 
one....
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay. com/Early- HO-E-8-Brass- Kit-Cast- and-Sheet- Brass-Body_ W0QQitemZ1104015 38510

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10962
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Herkimer Fact
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                          W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Since you mentioned "Herkie Rides The Rails " as a story of a family member 
getting back the original business I wanted to mention something about Herkimer, 
the in between company, you might not know. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Herkimer Tool and 
Model Works was at    Box 181    125 Marginal 
Road    Herkimer, NY 13350-0191   Phone # 
315-866-2110  These you might know but have you ever heard of  F Ellis 
Green  being an owner.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10963
						From: Chris B
						Date: 6/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks Nelson, that's exactly what I need,  I'll get spares too, those things get smaller every year!

                                                                                                                                                                                      BTW, does anyone have any tips to offer on using NWSL's sensipress or similar tool to remove original drive wheels on small vintage diesel trucks?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Athearn-type drop in two part swaps are obviously a snap, but like the
original Athearn RDC, all of the the projects I have in mind are 1-pc
geared axles drives.  I have an original NWSL puller, and I've used it in the past to work
with Mantua General wheels sets, but those axles are so substantial
there's not much chance of bending anything.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Apologies it all this detail is off topic, and I should also post this query on the repower-regear group, but since all of the engines I'd like to re-power are all small vintage metal diesels, I thought
there might be more relevant expertise here.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm trying to use all vintage track, equipment, structures, and motive power on my (work in progress) W&OD project layout.  It's a multi deck layout in a 20' x 17' space.  Most of the layout features steep 3-4% grades that are actually gentler than the prototype 4.5%. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm committed to vintage shells, but after running some extensive trials on test grades, I'm standardizing on using modified Hobbytown or OMI drive trains in the 26 different engines the W&OD ran in the 40's and 50's.  I"ve got enough drive trains of both types to repower each engine, and so far it's pretty straight forward, with one exception.

                                                                                                                                                                                      All of the the MEW, Keystone, and Ivers 44 and 70 ton engines, and all the one-off home made or experimental units favored by the W&OD feature small diameter drive wheels.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The Hobbytown and OMI drives have features I need to climb the steep grades on
 the layout.  I'll have to do major surgery on the trucks to produce the appropriate short wheelbase.  I also plan to modify and reuse the sideframes from the vintage engines, since Hobbytown and OMI have nothing appropriate, and the MEW metal sideframes look pretty good.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I need the OMI and Hobbytown drives  to get adequate power  on grades in small engines, even diecast engines loaded with extra lead.  That means I need the OMI/Hobbytown axles with their helical drive gears, and that means I have to replace the large diameter drive wheels with appropriate small diameter drive wheels, either vintage or new.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have enough surplus OMI and Hobbytown drives that I'm not too skittish about just jumping in and doing some wheel pulling and switching, as soon as I get the sensipress, but I would really appreciate any tips....

                                                                                                                                                                                      I"ve done some serious bashing to towers and trucks on hobbytown and OMI drives but I have
 yet to replace any drive wheels on geared axles, so anything related to swapping different diameter drivewheels, or just in using the sensipress for similar tasks would be helpful. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      thanks, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B.


                                                                                                                                                                                      just in case the usual suspects wonder why anyone would even bother to go this route, the all metal vintage engine roster, the steep prototype grades, and the need to repower all the old diecast shells so they can pull strings of metal hoppers up silly grades is actually the primary motivation and purpose of this project! go figure!

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      =====================


                                                                                                                                                                                      Even the small main yard at Rosslyn Virginia, across the Potomac from Georgetown DC. is on such a slope that the gas-electrics used for passenger service during WWII required wooden chocks against the downside wheels while taking on passengers.   

                                                                                                                                                                                      The line starts at river level at Rosslyn, and climbing up the sharp final edge of
 the Piedmont Plateau, it climbs over 400 ft in the 4.5 miles it takes to reach Bluemont Junction.  There one line keeps climbing north towards Falls Church and the other drops back down while heading south towards Potomac Yard at Alexandria. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      So my layout level heights are equally demanding on small diesels pulling vintage metal rolling stock.  
                                                                                                                                                                                       Rosslyn Yard is at 32" above the floor, Bluemont Jct is at 50"; leaving Bluemont Jct, the line to Falls Church climbs to 62", and the line to Alexandria slopes back down to 38".
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Nelson <greenbrier614@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 9:13:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Metal RDC"s

                                                                                                                                                                                      









    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I remembered your request, and just discovered NWSL has replacements while perusing their PDF files. Their site is really bare-bones and unsearchable.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
This PDF has lists 15 tooth gears for the 1960's RDC... is that what you need? It's second on the list.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.nwsl. com/pdf%20prod% 20list/pdf% 20prod11. htm
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Jim, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I've got two of the first version Athearn RDCs, one powered and one dummy...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The powered model ran fine till some clumsy oaf who is writing this email 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> took the powered truck apart and lost one of the intermediate gears....
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> anyone have or know of a source for same?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10964
						From: Garry Spear
						Date: 6/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, the car is a Grant Hobbycraft, Grant  Hobbies. 
1955-1960 era.  The cars came in a plastic  bag and  (at
least mine)  did not include trucks.  I own one kit, a
coach.  Purchased a few years ago at the Allentown, PA show. 
The kits did not include trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The key to identifying the Grant cars is the underbody details, cast metal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Garry Spear 

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      On 6/13/09, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      











                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
            

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      I never thought of them.  Grant advertised both CN smooth side cars and CP 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
rib sides, of which yours must be the latter.  They also advertised a "GMD" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
F unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      
	
	


	


	
	
	
	
	



                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10965
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi Garry,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Won't argue whose they are but have to disagree about the under body details 
being cast metal, unless some were from different runs
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          As I mentioned I have 6 
cars. While each has a metal floor they all have gray/silver colored plastic 
parts for the underbelly. ( I had sent a picture as an attachment 
before. The parts came in a  little clear plastic bags with the same 
amount of parts in each bag many still on the sprues. Depending on the type of 
car, based on the sheet of instruction that I have, you used certain items in 
different pre punched holes in the metal floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I am glad to 
know the date you sent for them is 1955-1960
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 12:35 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
  ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, the car is a Grant Hobbycraft, Grant  Hobbies.  1955-1960 
  era.  The cars came in a plastic  bag and  (at least 
  mine)  did not include trucks.  I own one kit, a coach.  
  Purchased a few years ago at the Allentown, PA show.  The kits did not 
  include trucks.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The key to identifying the Grant cars is the underbody 
  details, cast metal.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Garry Spear 

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      On 6/13/09, Don 
  Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net> 
  wrote:
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      I never thought of them. Grant advertised both CN smooth side cars and CP 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      rib sides, of which yours must be the latter. They also advertised a 
    "GMD" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      F unit.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Dellmann

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10966
						From: Garry Spear
						Date: 6/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I know the date because I got their catalog while a high school
student.  Trains were expensive, catalogs were affordable. 
i.e. I bought a few trains and lots of catalogs and flyers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I bought my kit 5-10 years ago, not when I was a student.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I thought the detail parts were metal;  I'll dig the kit out and check.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Garry Spear

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      On 6/15/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      











                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
            

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi Garry,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Won't argue whose they are but have to disagree about the under body details 
being cast metal, unless some were from different runs
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          As I mentioned I have 6 
cars. While each has a metal floor they all have gray/silver colored plastic 
parts for the underbelly. ( I had sent a picture as an attachment 
before. The parts came in a  little clear plastic bags with the same 
amount of parts in each bag many still on the sprues. Depending on the type of 
car, based on the sheet of instruction that I have, you used certain items in 
different pre punched holes in the metal floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I am glad to 
know the date you sent for them is 1955-1960
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: 
  Garry 
  Spear 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 12:35 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
  ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, the car is a Grant Hobbycraft, Grant  Hobbies.  1955-1960 
  era.  The cars came in a plastic  bag and  (at least 
  mine)  did not include trucks.  I own one kit, a coach.  
  Purchased a few years ago at the Allentown, PA show.  The kits did not 
  include trucks.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The key to identifying the Grant cars is the underbody 
  details, cast metal.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Garry Spear 

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      On 6/13/09, Don 
  Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> 
  wrote:
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      I never thought of them. Grant advertised both CN smooth side cars and CP 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      rib sides, of which yours must be the latter. They also advertised a 
    "GMD" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      F unit.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      
	
	


	


	
	
	
	
	



                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10967
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Guess by who ????
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Garry,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                           
If you still have the catalog for Grant Hobbycraft would you consider scanning 
it to send to Larry at the HOseeker site so it would be available for all to 
see, including me. Also if you have lots of catalogs and flyers maybe there are 
others that are not on his site. If no scanner perhaps you could get copies and 
send them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             I now have to 
find out if besides Grant Hobbycraft they used other variations of the name. Did 
they use Grant's with an S, Did they use Hobby Craft (two separate words) and 
finally did they ever use " of Canada" at the end.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks 
for what you have supplied.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Jim 
H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 9:17 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who 
  ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I know the date because I got their catalog while a high school 
  student.  Trains were expensive, catalogs were affordable.  i.e. I 
  bought a few trains and lots of catalogs and flyers.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I bought my kit 
  5-10 years ago, not when I was a student.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I thought the detail parts 
  were metal;  I'll dig the kit out and check.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Garry Spear

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      On 6/15/09, jim 
  heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi Garry,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Won't argue whose they are but have to disagree about the under body details 
    being cast metal, unless some were from different runs
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                          As I mentioned I have 6 
    cars. While each has a metal floor they all have gray/silver colored plastic 
    parts for the underbelly. ( I had sent a picture as an attachment 
    before. The parts came in a  little clear plastic bags with the 
    same amount of parts in each bag many still on the sprues. Depending on the 
    type of car, based on the sheet of instruction that I have, you used certain 
    items in different pre punched holes in the metal floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            I am glad 
    to know the date you sent for them is 1955-1960
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- 
      Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 
      Monday, June 15, 2009 12:35 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: 
      Re: [vintageHO] Guess by who ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, the car is a Grant Hobbycraft, Grant  Hobbies.  
      1955-1960 era.  The cars came in a plastic  bag and  (at 
      least mine)  did not include trucks.  I own one kit, a 
      coach.  Purchased a few years ago at the Allentown, PA show.  
      The kits did not include trucks.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The key to identifying the Grant 
      cars is the underbody details, cast metal.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Garry Spear 

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      On 6/13/09, Don 
      Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net> wrote: 
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        


                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      I never thought of them. Grant advertised both CN smooth side cars 
        and CP 
                                                                                                                                                                                      rib sides, of which yours must be the latter. They also 
        advertised a "GMD" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      F unit.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don 
        Dellmann

                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10968
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Pennslvania expert needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                            To anyone who 
can answer a question about Pennsylvania engine classifications. Is it true that 
all Pennsy alphanumeric loco descriptions were NOT officially hyphenated ? That 
K-4 is wrong and is actually K4. GG-1 is wrong and should be just GG1 and so 
on.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Small point but want to be 
sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10969
						From: toytrain13
						Date: 6/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Pennslvania expert needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Alvin F. Staufer, the acknowledged Pennsy expert, and author of Pennsy Power, skips the hyphen in his book. That's the only way I've seen Pennsylvania RR loco designations in print.  Regards- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       To anyone who can answer a question about Pennsylvania engine classifications. Is it true that all Pennsy alphanumeric loco descriptions were NOT officially hyphenated ? That K-4 is wrong and is actually K4. GG-1 is wrong and should be just GG1 and so on.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      Small point but want to be sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10970
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 6/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Pennslvania expert needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm no authority on Pennsylvania, but it looks like 
hypens should NOT be used but often are.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Perhaps a fairly authoritative source is the 
"Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical 
Society at http://www.prrths.com/ .
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      If you start drilling down there with "National 
Society" you see that their publication "The Keystone" does not use 
hypens.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      And if you keep drilling down, you get to this page 
which seems to have actual Pennsylvania outline drawings with no 
hyphens...
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Another site that seems authoritative, if not 
"official", is http://everything2.com/?node_id=1424086 and it mentions, and shows, "...assigned a capital letter, and 
then a subsequent number..." 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      It was probably put together by an 
aficionado
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I recently got an O gauge Sunset 3rd Rail S1 and 
the box says "S-1" which I believe is incorrect.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      And in a quick online search in Yahoo I found the 
following number of hits and a strong tendency for people to want to insert a 
hyphen:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      969 for "Pennsylvania S1"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      270 for "Pennsylvania S-1"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      1,720 for "Pennsylvania GG1"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      2,390 for "Pennsylvania 
GG-1"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      586 for "Pennsylvania K4"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      525 for "Pennsylvania 
S-1"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      573,000 for "Pennsylvania B6" (A very popular 
switcher)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      103,000 for "Pennsylvania 
B-6"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Usually with these "either/or" questions, the 
number of hits is overwhelmingly in favor of one choice.  Not so 
overwhelming on this one.  I think there is a predilection of people to 
like to use hyphens.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:09 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Pennslvania expert 
  needed
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            To anyone who 
  can answer a question about Pennsylvania engine classifications. Is it true 
  that all Pennsy alphanumeric loco descriptions were NOT officially hyphenated 
  ? That K-4 is wrong and is actually K4. GG-1 is wrong and should be just GG1 
  and so on.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Small point but want to 
  be sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10971
						From: Jack Priller
						Date: 6/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Rubber bands?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have an Athearn RDC with the Hi-F drive, and, naturally, it came to me sans the rubber-bands. I know that SOMEWHERE out in cyber-land I could probably find almost exact replacements, but the thought(?) occured to me that O-rings might be more readily available and just might last longer. Has anyone tried this? How did it work out? What size did you use, or would you recommend?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jack Priller
                                                                                                                                                                                      
El Paso, TX
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10972
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 6/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Rubber bands?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
You can order bands from Athearn directly.  You can find them on
eBay.  You can use O rings but they usually are too stiff unless you
can find thin ones of the right size.  So far I have not found the
right size and thickness.  It takes a very flexible ring to allow the
trucks to twist to stay on the track on curves.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Someone recently said they used bands sold at stores for girls hair
care to make ponytail styles.  They come in different sizes.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
====================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jack Priller wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       I have an Athearn RDC with the Hi-F drive, and, naturally, it
came to me sans the rubber-bands. I know that SOMEWHERE out in
cyber-land I could probably find almost exact replacements, but the
thought(?) occured to me that O-rings might be more readily available
and just might last longer. Has anyone tried this? How did it work out?
What size did you use, or would you recommend?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jack Priller
                                                                                                                                                                                      
El Paso, TX
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10973
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 6/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Rubber bands?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have pointed this out from time to time when this question come up.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I bought a pack of a thousand at CVS for a dollar. The sizes are similar to each other, so some smaller ones work better on the Hustler, the larger ones work on larger engines. I have an ATSF A-B-B-A belt drive lashup, all re-belted this way. So far, after six months of running, they work well still, as do my Atheatrn Geeps.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Tue, 6/16/09, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rubber bands?
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 4:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      






    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Someone recently said they used bands sold at stores for girls hair
care to make ponytail styles.  They come in different sizes.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jack Priller wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       I have an Athearn RDC with the Hi-F drive, and, naturally, it
came to me sans the rubber-bands. I know that SOMEWHERE out in
cyber-land I could probably find almost exact replacements, but the
thought(?) occured to me that O-rings might be more readily available
and just might last longer. Has anyone tried this? How did it work out?
What size did you use, or would you recommend?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jack Priller
                                                                                                                                                                                      
El Paso, TX
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      



 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10974
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 6/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Rubber bands?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Find someone who's kid has braces. I've used the ones from my daughter when 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
she changes size of bands. They work really well and have lasted a long 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Steve
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Stephen Neubaum" <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 6:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rubber bands?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have pointed this out from time to time when this question come up.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I bought a pack of a thousand at CVS for a dollar. The sizes are similar to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
each other, so some smaller ones work better on the Hustler, the larger ones 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
work on larger engines. I have an ATSF A-B-B-A belt drive lashup, all 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
re-belted this way. So far, after six months of running, they work well 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
still, as do my Atheatrn Geeps.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- On Tue, 6/16/09, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Rubber bands?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 4:29 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
            .....
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Someone recently said they used bands sold at stores for girls hair
                                                                                                                                                                                      
care to make ponytail styles. They come in different sizes.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jack Priller wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
   I have an Athearn RDC with the Hi-F drive, and, naturally, it
                                                                                                                                                                                      
came to me sans the rubber-bands. I know that SOMEWHERE out in
                                                                                                                                                                                      
cyber-land I could probably find almost exact replacements, but the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
thought(?) occured to me that O-rings might be more readily available
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and just might last longer. Has anyone tried this? How did it work out?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
What size did you use, or would you recommend?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jack Priller
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
El Paso, TX 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10975
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Pennslvania expert needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck, Richard,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Thanks for the response 
about hyphen or not in Pennsy engine classifications. Thanks for where to 
look. While not a major issue it became part of a bet between a friend and 
I. I won no hyphen.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  toytrain13 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:42 
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Pennslvania 
  expert needed
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Alvin F. Staufer, the acknowledged Pennsy expert, and author of Pennsy 
  Power, skips the hyphen in his book. That's the only way I've seen 
  Pennsylvania RR loco designations in print. Regards- Richard 
  White
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To anyone who can answer a question about Pennsylvania 
  engine classifications. Is it true that all Pennsy alphanumeric loco 
  descriptions were NOT officially hyphenated ? That K-4 is wrong and is 
  actually K4. GG-1 is wrong and should be just GG1 and so on.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  Small point but want to be sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10976
						From: Jack Priller
						Date: 6/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Rubber bands?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Gentlemen, I thank you most sincerely. I'll check out local drug-stores, etcetera, and see what the young ladies are wearing in their hair [or on their teeth] this season.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jack Priller
                                                                                                                                                                                      
El Paso, TX
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10977
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 6/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Challenger Challenge
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I've been motivated to complete an operational, fairly complete original
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Bowser Challenger project that has been around for a few years without
                                                                                                                                                                                      
breaking the bank.  Does anyone have any of the following parts that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
could help with my restoration project?  Used or new, doesn't matter, as
                                                                                                                                                                                      
most of our our locomotives are but a collection of used parts!  Plus
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sometimes the older parts fit older versions better, too!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
This is what I am looking for: smoke box front, trailing truck, two
                                                                                                                                                                                      
front air compressors; power reverse casting; small exhaust pipes (not
                                                                                                                                                                                      
large steam pipes); 4 main rods; 4 eccentrics; both rear - left & right
                                                                                                                                                                                      
crossheads, both valve gear hangers plus all the valve gear - I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                      
consider whatever you have, be it individual parts, partially assembled,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
mangled or assembled, and if I wind up with extra, make them available
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to the next person tackling one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Also looking to find, (but not a must have), one of the old Bowser wood
                                                                                                                                                                                      
tenders; again, it does not matter if you have a poorly finished old
                                                                                                                                                                                      
example I can repair and refinish.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Please let me know either on or off list, with what you may have and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
what you need to complete the transaction.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10978
						From: solly_46
						Date: 6/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: WTD: Gear for older Athearn F7A Loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Looking for a gear for older Athearn F7A engine. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Trucks are metal sides. Screw hold them on. Engine must be 40+ years old. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
There are two screws that hold the engine on the bottom. There are two weights on each side of the motor. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Please view Photos.  Athearn F7A Need Gear
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Randy
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10979
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: help info please
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Wondering if anyone can help. I have a chance to buy a number of passenger cars 
but not sure about them. My information said this passenger car was made by Van 
or Van's / Hobby or Hobbies. This baggage car has cardboard embossed sides 
and doors. The roof, floor and ends are wood. Detail under the floor are some 
metal casting and some wood pieces  which I believe you shape. The trucks 
are Varney 6 wheel passenger trucks The large loop couplers Mantua, maybe. I 
hope I can get some answers to my questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Whose are they ? If 
it is Van's Hobby (or whatever full name is) where were they made (California)? 
What time frame are they from ? How many different types of cars did they make 
?  Only heavyweights ? Did they normally come with trucks or not ?  
The decals on the bodies say Camruh Valley Lines.s there a real RR by that name 
or is it made up ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Actually any piece of 
information will be helpful.  Thanks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10980
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 6/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: help info please
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim,  The only Van's Hobbies I know of is the long lived Canadian outfit that eventually got into the brass import busines.  Nothing in the product review book, will skim thought the old magazine advertiser indexs; as all my outside plans were washed away by today's rain.  Will let you know what I find in a while.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            Wondering if anyone can help. I have a chance to buy a number of passenger cars but not sure about them. My information said this passenger car was made by Van or Van's / Hobby or Hobbies. This baggage car has cardboard embossed sides and doors. The roof, floor and ends are wood. Detail under the floor are some metal casting and some wood pieces  which I believe you shape. The trucks are Varney 6 wheel passenger trucks The large loop couplers Mantua, maybe. I hope I can get some answers to my questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Whose are they ? If it is Van's Hobby (or whatever full name is) where were they made (California)? What time frame are they from ? How many different types of cars did they make ?  Only heavyweights ? Did they normally come with trucks or not ?  The decals on the bodies say Camruh Valley Lines.s there a real RR by that name or is it made up ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Actually any piece of information will be helpful.  Thanks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10981
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: help info please
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
I have found some information about the passenger I wanted to know about. The 
company is called Vann Car Shop. I started going page by page (no index) through 
my copies of "The Reporting Mark" and found out some answers to my own 
questions. All cars were heavyweights.  Made a  RPO, Coach, 
Diner  and TWO types of Baggage ( one with single windows at either end 
with 2 baggage 8' doors, other no windows with 2 baggage doors one 8', one 6' ) 
for sure. Haven't found if there were more. Pictures of car body sides only 
shown.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            A statement says " 
These cars do not appear in any early model shop catalogs. A check of Model 
Railroader from 1937 to 1944 does not show these cars advertised. The 
trucks (maker not mentioned) sold for &1.00   Bodies  
$.75  Hardware  $1.00  It says  Coach is 75' , RPO is 
61', Baggage is 70'. Diner length not mentioned.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             I am assuming 
because of the embossed cardboard and wood construction is why searching 
magazines and catalogs for them from 1937 - 1944 was done. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Still 
looking for other information .
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 3:27 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: help info 
  please
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim, The only Van's Hobbies I know of is the long lived Canadian outfit 
  that eventually got into the brass import busines. Nothing in the product 
  review book, will skim thought the old magazine advertiser indexs; as all my 
  outside plans were washed away by today's rain. Will let you know what I find 
  in a while. W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Wondering if anyone can help. I have a chance to buy a number of 
  passenger cars but not sure about them. My information said this passenger car 
  was made by Van or Van's / Hobby or Hobbies. This baggage car has cardboard 
  embossed sides and doors. The roof, floor and ends are wood. Detail under the 
  floor are some metal casting and some wood pieces which I believe you shape. 
  The trucks are Varney 6 wheel passenger trucks The large loop couplers Mantua, 
  maybe. I hope I can get some answers to my questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Whose 
  are they ? If it is Van's Hobby (or whatever full name is) where were they 
  made (California) ? What time frame are they from ? How many different 
  types of cars did they make ? Only heavyweights ? Did they normally come with 
  trucks or not ? The decals on the bodies say Camruh Valley Lines.s there a 
  real RR by that name or is it made up ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Actually any piece of 
  information will be helpful. Thanks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10982
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 6/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: help info please [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

  
  
  

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Wondering if anyone can
help. I have a chance to buy a number of passenger cars but not sure
about them. My information said this passenger car was made by Van or
Van's / Hobby or Hobbies. This baggage car has cardboard embossed sides
and doors. The roof, floor and ends are wood. Detail under the floor
are some metal casting and some wood pieces  which I believe you shape.
The trucks are Varney 6 wheel passenger trucks The large loop couplers
Mantua, maybe. I hope I can get some answers to my questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            Whose are they ? If it is
Van's Hobby (or whatever full name is) where were they made
(California)? What time frame are they from ? How many different types
of cars did they make ?  Only heavyweights ? Did they normally come
with trucks or not ?  The decals on the bodies say Camruh Valley
Lines.s there a real RR by that name or is it made up ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          Actually any piece of
information will be helpful.  Thanks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I ***may***  have a RPO of this company... not sure, bought it without
any documentation. Like with your cars, floor, roof, ends, even
diapragms are wood , sides are very nicely embossed cardboard ( doors
are in one piece with the sides) and paper overlays for the wooden
ends. Battery boxes and air reservoirs are wood, brake valve and
cylinder castings. It came without trucks and couplers, apparently it
was never finished. Please compare with the other cars which you have,
do you have a RPO too? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10983
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: help info please [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         The picture you sent does not match 
the picture of the sides of the Vann's Car Shop RPO that I came across. Door 
size/shape alone much different plus type of roof.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Your picture can open up new 
discussion. I have to look much closer (later) at it. First look I have no 
idea who made it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 3:17 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] help info please 
  [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      jim heckard wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
    Wondering if anyone can help. I have a chance to buy a number of passenger 
    cars but not sure about them. My information said this passenger car was 
    made by Van or Van's / Hobby or Hobbies. This baggage car has cardboard 
    embossed sides and doors. The roof, floor and ends are wood. Detail under 
    the floor are some metal casting and some wood pieces  which I believe 
    you shape. The trucks are Varney 6 wheel passenger trucks The large loop 
    couplers Mantua, maybe. I hope I can get some answers to my 
    questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            Whose are they ? 
    If it is Van's Hobby (or whatever full name is) where were they made 
    (California) ? What time frame are they from ? How many different types 
    of cars did they make ?  Only heavyweights ? Did they normally come 
    with trucks or not ?  The decals on the bodies say Camruh Valley 
    Lines.s there a real RR by that name or is it made up ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                          Actually any piece of 
    information will be helpful.  Thanks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      I ***may***  have a RPO of this company... not sure, bought it 
  without any documentation. Like with your cars, floor, roof, ends, even 
  diapragms are wood , sides are very nicely embossed cardboard ( doors are in 
  one piece with the sides) and paper overlays for the wooden ends. Battery 
  boxes and air reservoirs are wood, brake valve and cylinder castings. It came 
  without trucks and couplers, apparently it was never finished. Please compare 
  with the other cars which you have, do you have a RPO too? 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10984
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 6/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Challenger Challenge
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Man! Has it been quiet or what?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have challenger parts, but none that I am sure I want to part with as of yet. I do not know why I have such a hard time parting with those locomotives. I have too many. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I do have a tender. It is in very good shape. $8 will give me a couple $ and will get it shipped to you. It really needs very little work. See pics:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks, Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 4:14:22 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Challenger Challenge

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All,

                                                                                                                                                                                      I've been motivated to complete an operational, fairly complete original
                                                                                                                                                                                      Bowser Challenger project that has been around for a few years without
                                                                                                                                                                                      breaking the bank. Does anyone have any of the following parts that
                                                                                                                                                                                      could help with my restoration project? Used or new, doesn't matter, as
                                                                                                                                                                                      most of our our locomotives are but a collection of used parts! Plus
                                                                                                                                                                                      sometimes the older parts fit older versions better, too!

                                                                                                                                                                                      This is what I am looking for: smoke box front, trailing truck, two
                                                                                                                                                                                      front air compressors; power reverse casting; small exhaust pipes (not
                                                                                                                                                                                      large steam pipes); 4 main rods; 4 eccentrics; both rear - left & right
                                                                                                                                                                                      crossheads, both valve gear hangers plus all the valve gear - I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                      consider whatever you have, be it individual parts, partially assembled,
                                                                                                                                                                                      mangled or assembled, and if I wind up with extra, make them available
                                                                                                                                                                                      to the next person tackling one.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Also looking to find, (but
 not a must have), one of the old Bowser wood
                                                                                                                                                                                      tenders; again, it does not matter if you have a poorly finished old
                                                                                                                                                                                      example I can repair and refinish.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Please let me know either on or off list, with what you may have and
                                                                                                                                                                                      what you need to complete the transaction.

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10985
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 6/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Challenger Challenge
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Sean,  Yes, it's been a bit quiet.  I don't know what happened all of a sudden with all the chatter.  At times there were at least a couple of different topics being talked about at the same time -- hard to keep up with.  I see Jim H is always pulling stuff out of the woodwork, sometimes more obscure stuff that not too many people know about.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for the offer on the Bowser vandy, but if I have one of them I probably have a dozen.  Looks like you shouldn't have any trouble getting rid of it though for $8 -- looks like it's in decent shape.  As for Challengers, I probably have at least that many (a dozen or more).  As you may recall, there was a period in the mid-1970's when Bowser discontinued making them, and for all we knew they may not have resumed the production of them.  They were scarce as hen's teeth.  I was able to buy the personal built-up model of the owner of Hobbies for Men (George) in Beacon -- they used to advertise full page ads in MR if you recall.  George didn't advertise this model though, but I found out about his decision to sell it, through the grapevine.  Shortly after that, an employee of Highway Hobby in Ramsey (NJ) was offering a kit NIB at a small train meet in the Bronx (NY) so I grabbed that.  I was picking them up for another 15 years after that at meets whenever I saw them (have plenty now, LOL).  That model was always one of my favorites, probably because when I first saw it being advertised in MR in the early '50's, I could only drool, but I could never afford it on a kid's allowance.  Have about 6 or 8 Kemtron Centipedes for these engines anyhow, as I much prefer them over those short Vandies for this engine.  Thanks again.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Later,  Ray  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10986
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 6/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: help info please
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
For a later thread..........

                                                                                                                                                                                      You've reminded me of the three or so  OO scale  full-length  passenger cars I bought second hand over 30 years ago.......

                                                                                                                                                                                      Mostly made of embossed cardboard and wood. shapes.

                                                                                                                                                                                      At the time I thought they were HO.

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      On Jun 22, 2009, at 7:48 AM, jim heckard wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                         The picture you sent does not match the picture of the sides of the Vann's Car Shop RPO that I came across. Door size/shape alone much different plus type of roof.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                          Your picture can open up new discussion. I have to look much closer (later) at it. First look I have no idea who made it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message -----

                                                                                                                                                                                      jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Wondering if anyone can help. I have a chance to buy a number of passenger cars but not sure about them. My information said this passenger car was made by Van or Van's / Hobby or Hobbies. This baggage car has cardboard embossed sides and doors. The roof, floor and ends are wood. Detail under the floor are some metal casting and some wood pieces  which I believe you shape. The trucks are Varney 6 wheel passenger trucks The large loop couplers Mantua, maybe. I hope I can get some answers to my questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                            Whose are they ? If it is Van's Hobby (or whatever full name is) where were they made (California) ? What time frame are they from ? How many different types of cars did they make ?  Only heavyweights ? Did they normally come with trucks or not ?  The decals on the bodies say Camruh Valley Lines.s there a real RR by that name or is it made up ?
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                          Actually any piece of information will be helpful.  Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I ***may***  have a RPO of this company... not sure, bought it without any documentation. Like with your cars, floor, roof, ends, even diapragms are wood , sides are very nicely embossed cardboard ( doors are in one piece with the sides) and paper overlays for the wooden ends. Battery boxes and air reservoirs are wood, brake valve and cylinder castings. It came without trucks and couplers, apparently it was never finished. Please compare with the other cars which you have, do you have a RPO too? 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10987
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 6/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Challenger Challenge
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sean,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thank you  VERY MUCH for posting  those  tender images..........

                                                                                                                                                                                      I've always liked the design very much and while it is extremely difficult to get the models, it's not too impossible to reverse engineer from fine pictures of them. I can  use the coupler and trucks as standard measured reference parts........

                                                                                                                                                                                      I can see great possibilities of making  accurate-looking  templates for them and piling up sets of cut parts to then build them.

                                                                                                                                                                                      [Penciled in for the cold weather months later this year......... and the idling cnc-cutter.....]

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      On Jun 22, 2009, at 9:42 AM, Sean Naylor wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      ...... a  number of fine model tender images........

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10988
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 6/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Bowser Challenger & Tender
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                          Sean, Mike, W Jay W, 
All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                I had been 
following the request for parts for the Bowser Challenger and the Bowser tender. 
I am sorry I can't provide any. Unlike people who have a number of both the 
engine and tender I can't afford more the one of each.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         First I'm wondering if this wooden 
bodied Bowser tender is the one you are talking about. I thought I had the plans 
for the kit but can't find them. Also I was to lazy to check if on the HOseeker 
site. I thought they would help you Mike when you start to create your 
own.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         I love this original Bill Bowser / 
Redlands California Challenger. I can't take any credit for this piece except in 
my collection. It was built by a Pennsylvania man when he was in the 
Marines in Ca. I was going to take apart and repaint it but it runs so 
nice. Also the bad part is I can't match the paint job which seems to have a 
silver mix or fleck in the black.. So for now it will stay the same and the 
tender will just have to be black. Can't ask the original owner as he has passed 
on.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10989
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 6/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: help info please
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have two heavyweights I have hung onto for decades.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Embossed cardstock sides, unknown window material, wooden roof, ends, steps, underbody detail, Varney 6-wheel heavyweight trucks, dummy knuckles, Pullman green (lettered Pullman), one "Tom Collins", the other "Sleepy Hollow".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Guess I need to get some pictures, eh?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Overall, 11-3/4" long.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > For a later thread..........
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> You've reminded me of the three or so  OO scale  full-length   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> passenger cars I bought second hand over 30 years ago.......
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mostly made of embossed cardboard and wood. shapes.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> At the time I thought they were HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On Jun 22, 2009, at 7:48 AM, jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >    The picture you sent does not match the picture of the sides of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > the Vann's Car Shop RPO that I came across. Door size/shape alone  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > much different plus type of roof.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >     Your picture can open up new discussion. I have to look much  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > closer (later) at it. First look I have no idea who made it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > From: Gerold Eckl
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>            Wondering if anyone can help. I have a chance to buy a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> number of passenger cars but not sure about them. My information  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> said this passenger car was made by Van or Van's / Hobby or  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Hobbies. This baggage car has cardboard embossed sides and doors.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> The roof, floor and ends are wood. Detail under the floor are some  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> metal casting and some wood pieces  which I believe you shape. The  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> trucks are Varney 6 wheel passenger trucks The large loop couplers  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Mantua, maybe. I hope I can get some answers to my questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>       Whose are they ? If it is Van's Hobby (or whatever full name  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> is) where were they made (California)? What time frame are they  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> from ? How many different types of cars did they make ?  Only  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> heavyweights ? Did they normally come with trucks or not ?  The  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> decals on the bodies say Camruh Valley Lines.s there a real RR by  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> that name or is it made up ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>     Actually any piece of information will be helpful.  Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I ***may***  have a RPO of this company... not sure, bought it  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > without any documentation. Like with your cars, floor, roof, ends,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > even diapragms are wood , sides are very nicely embossed cardboard  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ( doors are in one piece with the sides) and paper overlays for the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > wooden ends. Battery boxes and air reservoirs are wood, brake valve  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > and cylinder castings. It came without trucks and couplers,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > apparently it was never finished. Please compare with the other  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > cars which you have, do you have a RPO too?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10990
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 6/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: News Today, Hal Carstens' Last Run
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      All, I was just startled to read this news on the NYC Transit Modeling Group's Yahoo Website. I want to caution all, though that there is no confirmation on the Carstens website yet.  Some of my thoughts follow Mike's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Th following is by Mike DelVecchio: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Subject: Hal Carstens
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:20:03 -0400
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hal Carstens peacefully died this morning at his home near Newton, New Jersey.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> He had been in good health, happy, and spry enough to have been a dinner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> speaker
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> at a recent NMRA gathering in Texas. I was proud to know him.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> He did a lot for the hobby, and a short list of accomplishments includes (from
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the NMRA website):
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> "Carstens, Harold H. NJ President Carstens Pubications, Inc., Publisher
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Railroad
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Model Craftsman and Railfan & Railroad. Holds NMRA Distinguished Service Award
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 1962, Past President Hobby Industry Association 1971-1972, Model Railroad
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Industry Association 1977-1978, Train Collectors Association 1964-1965. NMRA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Life Member. Member NMRA Museum Committee. Editor, Author, HO, train
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> collector.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Secretary, Eastern MRR Manufacturers 1956-1962. HIAA Meritorious Award
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of Honor
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 1979. HIAA MRR Division Big Wheel Award 1987. NMRA Model RR Man of the Year
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Award 1989. MRIA HALL OF FAME 1996. Listed in Who's Who in America. Train
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> collection has been displayed in Williamsburg; Trenton State Museum, and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> National Geographic Hall, Washington.? Arrangments are currently being made."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It was a good run, Hal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Del Vecchio
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> former-Carstens employee
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      All:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Hal Carstens was only an acquaintance, but after my dad, likely the most influential person in my railroad hobbies.  Through Railroad Model craftsman, he recognized Eastern railroading to counter the other magazine's focus on the Mid-west and West, featured rapid transit modeling when it was a dot on radar screen, and most importantly, remebered the hobby's roots, advising (in the late 1950's!) that collecting some of the pioneering models, by Walthers, Conover and others, some long gone would be rewarding.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
But more than that, it was fun to see and talk with him at various meets, or trade an email once in a while.  He had a great memory, both of the pioneers and their models.  He was already on my list of invitees for the dedication of our restored 1987's Erie passenger station scheduled for September. He was also a fellow Rotarian, a long-time member of his Newton Rotary.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
My best remembrance of him was on a NYS&W special, being run to publicize a study on the revival of passenger service on the NYS&W. On the way back from Warwick, he was sitting by a window and I joined him, he telling me that his most favorite spot on the line was coming up and what it meant to him. We marveled that were rolling in a first class passenger car, in a full length consist, with drinks in hand, on a line considered only a few years before as only fit for scrap. As his favorite spot approached we sat in silence, contemplating the beauty and wonder of it all.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Yes, that spot is my favorite now, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Good Run?  No, it was a great run, Hal, and thanks for everything.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W. Jay Wanczyk
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10991
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 6/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: News Today, Hal Carstens' Last Run
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      It IS on Kalmbach's website..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 2:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] News Today, Hal Carstens' Last Run
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> All, I was just startled to read this news on the NYC Transit Modeling 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Group's Yahoo Website. I want to caution all, though that there is no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> confirmation on the Carstens website yet.  Some of my thoughts follow 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Th following is by Mike DelVecchio:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Subject: Hal Carstens
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:20:03 -0400
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Hal Carstens peacefully died this morning at his home near Newton, New 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Jersey.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> He had been in good health, happy, and spry enough to have been a dinner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> speaker
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> at a recent NMRA gathering in Texas. I was proud to know him.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> He did a lot for the hobby, and a short list of accomplishments includes 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> (from
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> the NMRA website):
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> "Carstens, Harold H. NJ President Carstens Pubications, Inc., Publisher
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Railroad
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Model Craftsman and Railfan & Railroad. Holds NMRA Distinguished Service 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Award
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 1962, Past President Hobby Industry Association 1971-1972, Model Railroad
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Industry Association 1977-1978, Train Collectors Association 1964-1965. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> NMRA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Life Member. Member NMRA Museum Committee. Editor, Author, HO, train
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> collector.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Secretary, Eastern MRR Manufacturers 1956-1962. HIAA Meritorious Award
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> of Honor
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 1979. HIAA MRR Division Big Wheel Award 1987. NMRA Model RR Man of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Year
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Award 1989. MRIA HALL OF FAME 1996. Listed in Who's Who in America. Train
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> collection has been displayed in Williamsburg; Trenton State Museum, and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> National Geographic Hall, Washington.? Arrangments are currently being 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> made."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> It was a good run, Hal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Mike Del Vecchio
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> former-Carstens employee
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> All:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hal Carstens was only an acquaintance, but after my dad, likely the most 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> influential person in my railroad hobbies.  Through Railroad Model 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> craftsman, he recognized Eastern railroading to counter the other 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> magazine's focus on the Mid-west and West, featured rapid transit modeling 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> when it was a dot on radar screen, and most importantly, remebered the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> hobby's roots, advising (in the late 1950's!) that collecting some of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> pioneering models, by Walthers, Conover and others, some long gone would 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> be rewarding.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> But more than that, it was fun to see and talk with him at various meets, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> or trade an email once in a while.  He had a great memory, both of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> pioneers and their models.  He was already on my list of invitees for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> dedication of our restored 1987's Erie passenger station scheduled for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> September. He was also a fellow Rotarian, a long-time member of his Newton 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Rotary.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> My best remembrance of him was on a NYS&W special, being run to publicize 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> a study on the revival of passenger service on the NYS&W. On the way back 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> from Warwick, he was sitting by a window and I joined him, he telling me 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that his most favorite spot on the line was coming up and what it meant to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> him. We marveled that were rolling in a first class passenger car, in a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> full length consist, with drinks in hand, on a line considered only a few 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> years before as only fit for scrap. As his favorite spot approached we sat 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> in silence, contemplating the beauty and wonder of it all.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yes, that spot is my favorite now, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Good Run?  No, it was a great run, Hal, and thanks for everything.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W. Jay Wanczyk
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10992
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 6/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: News Today, Hal Carstens' Last Run
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Carstens Publishing now has a nice obit at their 
site  http://www.carstens-publications.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Click on the "Click here for 
obituary".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      At that page, there is a "Click Here to Leave a 
Message for the Carstens Family" if you wish.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I met him at the 2000 NMRA convention in San Jose, 
California.  I told him that I had been getting RMC and MR both for 
decades.  I told him it was my impression that RMC came across with a 
somewhat more personable and friendly tone.  He seemed to like hearing 
that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      We sometimes here the phrase "we stand on the 
shoulders of those who preceeded us".  Well, his shoulders were certainly 
some of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:08 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] News Today, Hal 
  Carstens' Last Run
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      All, I was just startled to read this news on the NYC Transit Modeling 
  Group's Yahoo Website. I want to caution all, though that there is no 
  confirmation on the Carstens website yet. Some of my thoughts follow 
  Mike's.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Th following is by Mike DelVecchio: 

                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Hal 
  Carstens
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:20:03 -0400
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hal 
  Carstens peacefully died this morning at his home near Newton, New 
  Jersey.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > He had been in good health, happy, and spry enough to have 
  been a dinner
                                                                                                                                                                                      > speaker
                                                                                                                                                                                      > at a recent NMRA gathering in Texas. I 
  was proud to know him.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > He did a lot for the hobby, and a short 
  list of accomplishments includes (from
                                                                                                                                                                                      > the NMRA 
  website):
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > "Carstens, Harold H. NJ President Carstens 
  Pubications, Inc., Publisher
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Railroad
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Model Craftsman and 
  Railfan & Railroad. Holds NMRA Distinguished Service Award
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 1962, 
  Past President Hobby Industry Association 1971-1972, Model Railroad
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  Industry Association 1977-1978, Train Collectors Association 1964-1965. 
  NMRA
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Life Member. Member NMRA Museum Committee. Editor, Author, HO, 
  train
                                                                                                                                                                                      > collector.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Secretary, Eastern MRR Manufacturers 
  1956-1962. HIAA Meritorious Award
                                                                                                                                                                                      > of Honor
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 1979. HIAA MRR 
  Division Big Wheel Award 1987. NMRA Model RR Man of the Year
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Award 
  1989. MRIA HALL OF FAME 1996. Listed in Who's Who in America. Train
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  collection has been displayed in Williamsburg; Trenton State Museum, 
  and
                                                                                                                                                                                      > National Geographic Hall, Washington.? Arrangments are currently 
  being made."
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > It was a good run, Hal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Mike Del 
  Vecchio
                                                                                                                                                                                      > former-Carstens employee

                                                                                                                                                                                      All:

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hal Carstens was 
  only an acquaintance, but after my dad, likely the most influential person in 
  my railroad hobbies. Through Railroad Model craftsman, he recognized Eastern 
  railroading to counter the other magazine's focus on the Mid-west and West, 
  featured rapid transit modeling when it was a dot on radar screen, and most 
  importantly, remebered the hobby's roots, advising (in the late 1950's!) that 
  collecting some of the pioneering models, by Walthers, Conover and others, 
  some long gone would be rewarding. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      But more than that, it was fun to 
  see and talk with him at various meets, or trade an email once in a while. He 
  had a great memory, both of the pioneers and their models. He was already on 
  my list of invitees for the dedication of our restored 1987's Erie passenger 
  station scheduled for September. He was also a fellow Rotarian, a long-time 
  member of his Newton Rotary.

                                                                                                                                                                                      My best remembrance of him was on a 
  NYS&W special, being run to publicize a study on the revival of passenger 
  service on the NYS&W. On the way back from Warwick, he was sitting by a 
  window and I joined him, he telling me that his most favorite spot on the line 
  was coming up and what it meant to him. We marveled that were rolling in a 
  first class passenger car, in a full length consist, with drinks in hand, on a 
  line considered only a few years before as only fit for scrap. As his favorite 
  spot approached we sat in silence, contemplating the beauty and wonder of it 
  all.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, that spot is my favorite now, too.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Good Run? No, it 
  was a great run, Hal, and thanks for everything.

                                                                                                                                                                                      W. Jay 
  Wanczyk

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10993
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 6/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I suspect that no one but me is interested in this, but having bought a film scanner on Friday I was putting in an old negative collection that I have that has never been printed. One of the negatives had a scan of a diesel that appears to be the prototype for the Lindsay (later Kemtron) "Stubby" switcher. I have put the photo in the photos section in a file titled "Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10994
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 6/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      That is sooo kool Matt!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 5:03:17 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I suspect that no one but me is interested in this, but having bought a film scanner on Friday I was putting in an old negative collection that I have that has never been printed. One of the negatives had a scan of a diesel that appears to be the prototype for the Lindsay (later Kemtron) "Stubby" switcher. I have put the photo in the photos section in a file titled "Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher".

                                                                                                                                                                                      Matt


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10995
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 6/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Matt C,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thank you! I have been looking for photos of the prototype of "Stubby" the Lindsay Vulcan Switcher for years!  And if it couldn't get any better for me, it was used in the New York (Brooklyn) Navy Yard!  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You see, for twenty year following WW 2, my Uncle Ed was employed by the BEDT (Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal RR) that had it's own yards, carfloats and tugs and was famous for using 0-6-0 steam switchers until about 1963.  BEDT was also was the common carrier that served the Navy Yard via car floats, but the Navy had its own railroad operations within the yard, using a variety of steam, later diesels. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It is facinating to see that a locomotive my uncle likely saw in the course of his work happens to be the prototype for one of my favorite HO Scale models!  Now I have to find out what color they were painted and find the correct letterng style decals! (Any guesses the color might have been "battleship" gray, with red trim around the windows?)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks again for posting the photograph! 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Ps. The closest prototype I had found earlier is on Northeast Railfan, a locomotive exported to the "Soc Iberica de Nitrogeno Vulcan 30T D/M #4663, blt 1952" that had the distingtive rear "hood", but no large stack.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/diesel98.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I suspect that no one but me is interested in this, but having bought a film scanner on Friday I was putting in an old negative collection that I have that has never been printed. One of the negatives had a scan of a diesel that appears to be the prototype for the Lindsay (later Kemtron) "Stubby" switcher. I have put the photo in the photos section in a file titled "Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10996
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 6/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Matt,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You photo of NY Navy Yard # 15 is a signifigant find, not only for us Vinatage HO Modelers, but also for historians of New York and Military Railroads.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
More information on that NY (Brooklyn) Navy yard "Stubby" prototype:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
It was built in December, 1938, Vulcan Locomotive number 4249 (Wilkes Barre, PA) for the Navy.  This locomotive was sold by the Navy in April, 1948 to Cacchette & Sons, Sunbury, ONT.  It was rated at 30 tons, had a 175 hp diesel engine and a mechanical drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
All of this information was found on the BROOKLYN NAVY YARD / NEW YORK NAVAL SHIPYARD page of the MILITARY RAILROADS & LOCOMOTIVES OF THE NEW YORK METROPOLITAN AREA webite, itself which is an offshoot of a project begun several years ago on the BEDT and other Brooklyn, and NY terminal waterfront railroads.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
NY (Brooklyn) Navy Yard page:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/milrr/bny.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
NY Military RR Overview page:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.trainweb.org/bedt/MilitaryRRofNY.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The website does not have a photograph of #15 and is formally requesting permission to have this photograph included on the website: Phil Goldstein, Historian, words just recieved were, "Yes! What a photo! Please ask the owner to share. Like always, he will receive credit for the image."  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have shared some of my photograps there and well as played a very small part in contributing to BEDT research there.  Please contact Phillip regarding permission and any questions you might have at:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
BEDT14@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I thank you for sharing this photo with us!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Matt C,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thank you! I have been looking for photos of the prototype of "Stubby" the Lindsay Vulcan Switcher for years!  And if it couldn't get any better for me, it was used in the New York (Brooklyn) Navy Yard!  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> You see, for twenty year following WW 2, my Uncle Ed was employed by the BEDT (Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal RR) that had it's own yards, carfloats and tugs and was famous for using 0-6-0 steam switchers until about 1963.  BEDT was also was the common carrier that served the Navy Yard via car floats, but the Navy had its own railroad operations within the yard, using a variety of steam, later diesels. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It is facinating to see that a locomotive my uncle likely saw in the course of his work happens to be the prototype for one of my favorite HO Scale models!  Now I have to find out what color they were painted and find the correct letterng style decals! (Any guesses the color might have been "battleship" gray, with red trim around the windows?)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks again for posting the photograph! 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Ps. The closest prototype I had found earlier is on Northeast Railfan, a locomotive exported to the "Soc Iberica de Nitrogeno Vulcan 30T D/M #4663, blt 1952" that had the distingtive rear "hood", but no large stack.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.northeast.railfan.net/diesel98.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I suspect that no one but me is interested in this, but having bought a film scanner on Friday I was putting in an old negative collection that I have that has never been printed. One of the negatives had a scan of a diesel that appears to be the prototype for the Lindsay (later Kemtron) "Stubby" switcher. I have put the photo in the photos section in a file titled "Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10997
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 6/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      This must also be the engine Lionel used as a 
prototype for their "Navy Yard" switcher.  Their number was 51, not 15, and 
no doubt picked based on their own part number needs since the number applied to 
the products was the actual part number.  These are often referred to as 
the "Vulcan Switchers".  And Lionel recycled their design into a variety of 
other paint scheme switchers and snowplows.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      It mentions: "...loosely design after a real-life 
gas Vulcan switcher of the 1950s."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The Lionel 1957 catalog says: "Based on unusual 
Vulcan 30-ton gear drive Diesel engine used at Brooklyn Navy 
Yard..."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      "The Vulcan Iron Works Company of Wilkes-Barre, PA, 
produced a total of 54 diesel-electric switcher units between 1938 and 1954. 
Lionel utilized their basic form as the prototype..."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      It's an interesting mixture of "gas", "diesel", and 
"diesel-electric" in the descriptions.  I'm sure that your reference as a 
diesel mechanical is correct.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Finally, here is a site with the "Vulcan Locomotive 
Works Collection" saying "12 file cabinets including 4 drawers each of printed 
engineering material and photographs...The Collection is housed at the Railroad 
Museum of Pennsylvania..."  Maybe if somebody is going to the upcoming NMRA 
convention, you could swing by and get blurry eyed looking for more 
information. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 8:06 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Prototype for 
  Lindsay Stubby Switcher
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Matt,

                                                                                                                                                                                      You photo of NY Navy Yard # 15 is a signifigant find, not 
  only for us Vinatage HO Modelers, but also for historians of New York and 
  Military Railroads. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      More information on that NY (Brooklyn) Navy yard 
  "Stubby" prototype:
                                                                                                                                                                                      It was built in December, 1938, Vulcan Locomotive 
  number 4249 (Wilkes Barre, PA) for the Navy. This locomotive was sold by the 
  Navy in April, 1948 to Cacchette & Sons, Sunbury, ONT. It was rated at 30 
  tons, had a 175 hp diesel engine and a mechanical drive.

                                                                                                                                                                                      All of this 
  information was found on the BROOKLYN NAVY YARD / NEW YORK NAVAL SHIPYARD page 
  of the MILITARY RAILROADS & LOCOMOTIVES OF THE NEW YORK METROPOLITAN AREA 
  webite, itself which is an offshoot of a project begun several years ago on 
  the BEDT and other Brooklyn, and NY terminal waterfront railroads.

                                                                                                                                                                                      NY 
  (Brooklyn) Navy Yard page:
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://members. trainweb. com/bedt/ milrr/bny. html

                                                                                                                                                                                      NY 
  Military RR Overview page:
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.trainweb .org/bedt/ MilitaryRRofNY. html

                                                                                                                                                                                      The 
  website does not have a photograph of #15 and is formally requesting 
  permission to have this photograph included on the website: Phil Goldstein, 
  Historian, words just recieved were, "Yes! What a photo! Please ask the owner 
  to share. Like always, he will receive credit for the image." 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have 
  shared some of my photograps there and well as played a very small part in 
  contributing to BEDT research there. Please contact Phillip regarding 
  permission and any questions you might have at:

                                                                                                                                                                                      BEDT14@... 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I thank you for 
  sharing this photo with us!

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Matt 
  C, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thank you! I have been looking for photos of the 
  prototype of "Stubby" the Lindsay Vulcan Switcher for years! And if it 
  couldn't get any better for me, it was used in the New York (Brooklyn) Navy 
  Yard! 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > You see, for twenty year following WW 2, my Uncle Ed 
  was employed by the BEDT (Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal RR) that had it's 
  own yards, carfloats and tugs and was famous for using 0-6-0 steam switchers 
  until about 1963. BEDT was also was the common carrier that served the Navy 
  Yard via car floats, but the Navy had its own railroad operations within the 
  yard, using a variety of steam, later diesels. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > It is 
  facinating to see that a locomotive my uncle likely saw in the course of his 
  work happens to be the prototype for one of my favorite HO Scale models! Now I 
  have to find out what color they were painted and find the correct letterng 
  style decals! (Any guesses the color might have been "battleship" gray, with 
  red trim around the windows?)
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks again for posting the 
  photograph! 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Ps. The 
  closest prototype I had found earlier is on Northeast Railfan, a locomotive 
  exported to the "Soc Iberica de Nitrogeno Vulcan 30T D/M #4663, blt 1952" that 
  had the distingtive rear "hood", but no large stack.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://www.northeas t.railfan. net/diesel98. html
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I 
  suspect that no one but me is interested in this, but having bought a film 
  scanner on Friday I was putting in an old negative collection that I have that 
  has never been printed. One of the negatives had a scan of a diesel that 
  appears to be the prototype for the Lindsay (later Kemtron) "Stubby" switcher. 
  I have put the photo in the photos section in a file titled "Prototype for 
  Lindsay Stubby Switcher".
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10998
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 6/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Looks like the biggest challenge would be adding the jackshaft 
drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Roger Aultman
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 8:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Prototype for 
  Lindsay Stubby Switcher
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Matt C, 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thank you! I have been looking for photos of the 
  prototype of "Stubby" the Lindsay Vulcan Switcher for years! And if it 
  couldn't get any better for me, it was used in the New York (Brooklyn) Navy 
  Yard! 

                                                                                                                                                                                      You see, for twenty year following WW 2, my Uncle Ed was 
  employed by the BEDT (Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal RR) that had it's own 
  yards, carfloats and tugs and was famous for using 0-6-0 steam switchers until 
  about 1963. BEDT was also was the common carrier that served the Navy Yard via 
  car floats, but the Navy had its own railroad operations within the yard, 
  using a variety of steam, later diesels. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      It is facinating to see that 
  a locomotive my uncle likely saw in the course of his work happens to be the 
  prototype for one of my favorite HO Scale models! Now I have to find out what 
  color they were painted and find the correct letterng style decals! (Any 
  guesses the color might have been "battleship" gray, with red trim around the 
  windows?)

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks again for posting the photograph! 

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Ps. The closest prototype I had found earlier is on Northeast Railfan, 
  a locomotive exported to the "Soc Iberica de Nitrogeno Vulcan 30T D/M #4663, 
  blt 1952" that had the distingtive rear "hood", but no large stack.
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.northeas t.railfan. net/diesel98. html

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- 
  In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I suspect 
  that no one but me is interested in this, but having bought a film scanner on 
  Friday I was putting in an old negative collection that I have that has never 
  been printed. One of the negatives had a scan of a diesel that appears to be 
  the prototype for the Lindsay (later Kemtron) "Stubby" switcher. I have put 
  the photo in the photos section in a file titled "Prototype for Lindsay Stubby 
  Switcher".
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 10999
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 6/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have just emailed a request to my Uncle who is a retired Navy Admiral.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Maybe he can put us in contact with someone who might know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Roger Aultman <raul@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 1:51:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Looks like the biggest challenge would be adding the jackshaft drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Roger Aultman
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 8:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Matt C, 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thank you! I have been looking for photos of the prototype of "Stubby" the Lindsay Vulcan Switcher for years! And if it couldn't get any better for me, it was used in the New York (Brooklyn) Navy Yard! 

                                                                                                                                                                                      You see, for twenty year following WW 2, my Uncle Ed was employed by the BEDT (Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal RR) that had it's own yards, carfloats and tugs and was famous for using 0-6-0 steam switchers until about 1963. BEDT was also was the common carrier that served the Navy Yard via car floats, but the Navy had its own railroad operations within the yard, using a variety of steam, later diesels. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      It is facinating to see that a locomotive my uncle likely saw in the course of his work happens to be the prototype for one of my favorite HO Scale models! Now I have to find out what color they were painted and find the correct letterng style decals! (Any guesses the color might have been "battleship" gray, with red
 trim around the windows?)

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks again for posting the photograph! 

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Ps. The closest prototype I had found earlier is on Northeast Railfan, a locomotive exported to the "Soc Iberica de Nitrogeno Vulcan 30T D/M #4663, blt 1952" that had the distingtive rear "hood", but no large stack.
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.northeas t.railfan. net/diesel98. html

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I suspect that no one but me is interested in this, but having bought a film scanner on Friday I was putting in an old negative collection that I have that has never been printed. One of the negatives had a scan of a diesel that appears to be the prototype for the Lindsay (later
 Kemtron) "Stubby" switcher. I have put the photo in the photos section in a file titled "Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher".
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      >


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11000
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 6/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Wow! Glad it was of interest to someone besides me. I have had a couple of those over the years and always wondered. And being in the Navy, I am equally fascinated by the Navy connection.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Given the half-tone scan of the photo, I suspect the copy neg was taken from a catalog cut.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Matt C,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thank you! I have been looking for photos of the prototype of "Stubby" the Lindsay Vulcan Switcher for years!  And if it couldn't get any better for me, it was used in the New York (Brooklyn) Navy Yard!  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> You see, for twenty year following WW 2, my Uncle Ed was employed by the BEDT (Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal RR) that had it's own yards, carfloats and tugs and was famous for using 0-6-0 steam switchers until about 1963.  BEDT was also was the common carrier that served the Navy Yard via car floats, but the Navy had its own railroad operations within the yard, using a variety of steam, later diesels. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It is facinating to see that a locomotive my uncle likely saw in the course of his work happens to be the prototype for one of my favorite HO Scale models!  Now I have to find out what color they were painted and find the correct letterng style decals! (Any guesses the color might have been "battleship" gray, with red trim around the windows?)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks again for posting the photograph! 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Ps. The closest prototype I had found earlier is on Northeast Railfan, a locomotive exported to the "Soc Iberica de Nitrogeno Vulcan 30T D/M #4663, blt 1952" that had the distingtive rear "hood", but no large stack.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.northeast.railfan.net/diesel98.html 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11001
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 6/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thank you so much for releasing this image !!!! It's a great vintage  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You may wish to re-scan the negative. The 'original' view of it is  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
heavily dithered, making it look like it would be ready to  lithograph  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
or publish........ That could mean you used a 'prepare for printing'  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
setting option on your scanning software. If your main scan is like  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the upload, you'll prefer to have more of a photographic scan saved  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
for future use.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Jun 28, 2009, at 4:03 AM, mmattjcoleman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I suspect that no one but me is interested in this, but having  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> bought a film scanner on Friday I was putting in an old negative  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> collection that I have that has never been printed. One of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> negatives had a scan of a diesel that appears to be the prototype  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> for the Lindsay (later Kemtron) "Stubby" switcher. I have put the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> photo in the photos section in a file titled "Prototype for Lindsay  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Stubby Switcher".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Matt 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11002
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 6/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Mantua Booster with slanted side tanks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hey Guys!  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Has anyone ever seen a Mantua Booster with slanted side tanks as depicted in this early instruction sheet?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      If so, I would love to get one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11003
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 6/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mantua Booster with slanted side tanks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      In the Group files there is a instruction sheet fo a straight 
sided tank that has the same kit number, maybe there was a change between 
drawing and manufacture.    Roger Aultman
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 3:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Booster with 
  slanted side tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hey Guys!  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Has anyone ever seen a Mantua Booster with slanted side tanks as depicted 
  in this early instruction sheet?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      If so, I would love to get one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11004
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 6/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Kibri Building
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I obtained a whole bunch of stuff last week, and finally identified manufacurer of this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It's about 2' long, tower about 14" tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kibri, West Germany in a small ink stamp on the bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The reason I am asking here is no place have I found any reference to Kibri making anything bigger than H0.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Yet, the opening doors (with functional latches) are about 1-3/4" tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The clock is a wind-up, and works.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So, if this ISN'T H0, I'll get spanked for being off-topic, but I thought I would ask.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Photos (before I hosed it off) under "Kibri Building".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Anybody know when it was made, what scale it was marketed under, and/or a catalogue number?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11005
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 6/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Kibri Building
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 

 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have seen other Kibri O scale stations
made of painted metal,  Certainly made before 1960, I think.  Great item as you
will learn.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of curmudgeon
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 6:02
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO]
 Kibri Building
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      I obtained a whole bunch of stuff last week, and
finally identified manufacurer of this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It's about 2' long, tower about 14" tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 Kibri ,
 West Germany in a small ink stamp
on the bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The reason I am asking here is no place have I found any reference to Kibri
making anything bigger than H0.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Yet, the opening doors (with functional latches) are about 1-3/4" tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The clock is a wind-up, and works.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So, if this ISN'T H0, I'll get spanked for being off-topic, but I thought I
would ask.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Photos (before I hosed it off) under "
 Kibri Building ".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Anybody know when it was made, what scale it was marketed under, and/or a
catalogue number?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11006
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 6/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mantua Booster with slanted side tanks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry, I tried to post this earlier, but my computer crashed.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Here is the later instructions:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Here is the early version:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      They do not look like drawings to me. Are they? I think the older is definately a photo. The image on the back is a drawing and the drawing also shows the sloped tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Other details are different, including the sand domes, bell, whistle and generator are all different.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I wonder if there was aprototype for this and whatever happened of it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11007
						From: jay matz
						Date: 6/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mantua Booster with slanted side tanks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      I have one of the first Boosters that was made, it has square tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sun, 6/28/09, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Booster with slanted side tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 6:37 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      






    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry, I tried to post this earlier, but my computer crashed.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Here is the later instructions:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Here is the early version:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      They do not look like drawings to me. Are they? I think the older is definately a photo. The image on the back is a drawing and the drawing also shows the sloped tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Other details are different, including the sand domes, bell, whistle and generator are all different.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I wonder if there was aprototype for this and whatever happened of it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11008
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 6/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mantua Booster with slanted side tanks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I've wondered about that too, although I first saw those ads only a few years ago.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The October 1952 Railroad Model Craftsman used the same factory photo of the sloped tank version that you posted in their shopper's Digest (Test Track predecessor) on page 47.  Then on the inside cover of the same issue, Mantua took out a full page ad, again using that same sloped tank version photo and saying it would be available October 10 (1952).  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
However, the December 1952 RMC Mantua ad, also on the inside back cover, shows the familiar square-tanked version.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I noticed that the rear lip of the cab roof is different in both illustrations that you posted, as are the sand domes and one has cab steps.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
A mystery as to why the last minute change in design. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sorry, I tried to post this earlier, but my computer crashed.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Here is the later instructions:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Here is the early version:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> They do not look like drawings to me. Are they? I think the older is definately a photo. The image on the back is a drawing and the drawing also shows the sloped tanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Other details are different, including the sand domes, bell, whistle and generator are all different.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I wonder if there was aprototype for this and whatever happened of it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11009
						From: bongiovanni12001
						Date: 6/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Lindsey Navy Yard Switcher
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, Matt, I guess the guys have disabused you of the notion that almost no one would be interested.  Let me just add that a)having been stationed at what was left of the Brooklyn Navy Yard from 1968 to 1971 I was extremely interested; b)I'm currently on over 2 dozen railroad lists (ah, retirement!!)and youze Vintage guys are among the most helpful, sharing, and civil.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Frank Bongiovanni
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11010
						From: cnj999
						Date: 6/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mantua Booster with slanted side tanks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I've wondered about that too, although I first saw those ads only a few years ago.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The October 1952 Railroad Model Craftsman used the same factory photo of the sloped tank version that you posted in their shopper's Digest (Test Track predecessor) on page 47.  Then on the inside cover of the same issue, Mantua took out a full page ad, again using that same sloped tank version photo and saying it would be available October 10 (1952).  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> However, the December 1952 RMC Mantua ad, also on the inside back cover, shows the familiar square-tanked version.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, the original ad showing the slanted tanks ran only a couple of months in 1952 and then was replaced by the ad showing the square tanked version. I've wondered for many years just what the real story was regarding the abrupt change in design. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I do believe at least "some" examples were done with slanted tanks, as I saw one for sale about 20 years ago at one of the Timonium train shows. I was particularly struck by its appearance and after examining it and then moving on, decided that I should really go back and purchase it. Of course, when I got back around to that table, the model had been sold. I've looked for another ever since, without success.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
CNJ999
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11011
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 6/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: [The GAUX Dispatcher] Can someone please explain to me...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                       Dispatcher has posted a new item:

                                                                                                                                                                                      'Can someone please explain to me...'

                                                                                                                                                                                      You may view the latest post at
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://news.gaurc.us/?p=1789

                                                                                                                                                                                      You received this e-mail because you asked to be notified when new updates are
                                                                                                                                                                                      posted.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Best regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                      RGoodell
                                                                                                                                                                                      rgoodell@...


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11012
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 6/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: New Vids
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Well golly gee, I guess I haven't been paying much attention, dealing with being flooded and everything, but I have still been working on getting things done on the virtual scale trainz, so here are a few vids to enjoy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The first one is where we find our train making a stop at Needleton to take on water, this is by the way, the first train to make the complete run on this route from Durango to Silverton, all 45 miles of it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Here we are picking up our train in Rockwood, an unfinished part of this route.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In this next one, we are past the highline, and heading toward Tank Creek to take on water.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Just take a wild guess which one this is, this is a new route I'm just starting to work on, it will include 65 miles of mainline track.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      And this one is just for fun, its the newly revamped old Auran F7 from Trainz, with a completely new mesh, engine file and detail added, this is a new reskin of that as well, nicely done up in a fantasy scheme.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      This last one is my D&RGW F7's, these are still in the old mesh, and you can see the difference between these and the GAURC F7's, the detail is a little bit sparce, and they don't look quite as nice, this train, the RGZ is also running on the Roscoe, Snyder and Pacific route.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11013
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 6/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Lindsey Navy Yard Switcher
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Frank,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
That must have been a fascinating time to have been stationed there! I am in the Navy (soon to retire!) and somewhere I have photos of the rail equipment at Charleston (loco was a side-rod Whitcomb or GE -- I can't recall) and shots from a few other odd spots where I have spent my AD time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Well, Matt, I guess the guys have disabused you of the notion that almost no one would be interested.  Let me just add that a)having been stationed at what was left of the Brooklyn Navy Yard from 1968 to 1971 I was extremely interested; b)I'm currently on over 2 dozen railroad lists (ah, retirement!!)and youze Vintage guys are among the most helpful, sharing, and civil.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Frank Bongiovanni
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11014
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 6/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You have good eyes. The negative I have was apparently taken from a catalog cut and under magnification you can see the half-tone screen. I can rescan at a higher resolution, but I don't think it will make it any better. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thank you so much for releasing this image !!!! It's a great vintage  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> You may wish to re-scan the negative. The 'original' view of it is  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> heavily dithered, making it look like it would be ready to  lithograph  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> or publish........ That could mean you used a 'prepare for printing'  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> setting option on your scanning software. If your main scan is like  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the upload, you'll prefer to have more of a photographic scan saved  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> for future use.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11015
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 6/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Lindsey Navy Yard Switcher
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I recall a side-rod Whitcomb center cab at Moffet NAS when I was in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
college--used to see it from Bayshore Freeway as I went by commuting to San 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jose State.   At one time they even used it to switch helium tankers.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 6:12 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lindsey Navy Yard Switcher
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Frank,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> That must have been a fascinating time to have been stationed there! I am 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> in the Navy (soon to retire!) and somewhere I have photos of the rail 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> equipment at Charleston (loco was a side-rod Whitcomb or GE -- I can't 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> recall) and shots from a few other odd spots where I have spent my AD 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Well, Matt, I guess the guys have disabused you of the notion that almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> no one would be interested.  Let me just add that a)having been stationed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> at what was left of the Brooklyn Navy Yard from 1968 to 1971 I was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> extremely interested; b)I'm currently on over 2 dozen railroad lists (ah, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> retirement!!)and youze Vintage guys are among the most helpful, sharing, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> and civil.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Frank Bongiovanni
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11016
						From: Wallace E. Tabor
						Date: 6/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: John Galt Road (Route)(Lines)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Do any of you remember a model railroad from a while ago that had "The John Galt Lines (Road)(Route) on the tenders of the locomotives.  That's all that I remember.  Anything else worth knowing?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Wally tabor
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11017
						From: Graeme
						Date: 6/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Kibri Building
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      In message <h28p8l+q1lp@...>, curmudgeon 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
<idioticyahoo@...> writes
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >I obtained a whole bunch of stuff last week, and finally identified 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>manufacurer of this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>It's about 2' long, tower about 14" tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Wow!  Fabulous station, and yes, Kibri certainly made tinplate 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
accessories to suit both 0 and H0 in the immediate post war period.  I'm 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
not sure when Kibri switched from tin to plastic - late 1950s, possibly?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Have a look here :
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.binnsroad.co.uk/railways/kibri0/index.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Second row, on the left, is an excerpt from a 1953 catalogue, with a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
station that looks exactly like yours, and clearly labelled 0.  Quite 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
when that station was introduced I don't know, but the tin range 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
probably ran from 1948 to 1958, or thereabouts.  Catalogue number looks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
like 52/6.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The light and flag on the tower don't look like they belong.  The light 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
looks like a clip on for a trestle bridge - probably Marx :
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.binnsroad.co.uk/railways/marx/acc/b25bridgelight2.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Finally, may I copy your pictures, and add them to the site?  Never seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
that station 'in the flesh' before.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Cheers,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Graeme Eldred, Scotland
                                                                                                                                                                                      
TCA 04-57743
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11018
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 6/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: John Galt Road (Route)(Lines)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Wally T.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The John Gault Lines!  The former road name and layout of an active member of the only other Yahoo Model RR Group I belong to, the New York City Mass Transit Modelers group.  He did not have another layout for 17 years, as his model railroad manufacturing business took much of his time. Now nearing retirement, he has recently started on a new layout featuring the mostly elevated Pelham Line of the NY City subway system, including the accurate modeling of the complex steel elevated structure.  He lives in TN, now, but travels back to the Northeast for several shows each year.  No doubt you know of his highly regarded line of HO scale resin kits, for his name is Al Westerfield, a very neat modeler to know!  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://westerfield.biz/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Wallace E. Tabor" <wetabor@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Do any of you remember a model railroad from a while ago that had "The John Galt Lines (Road)(Route) on the tenders of the locomotives.  That's all that I remember.  Anything else worth knowing?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Wally tabor
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11019
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 6/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Kibri Building
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Dave, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
A great looking station, from the link that Graeme provided, it looks like their top of the line too, what a find! It would not look out of place on a US layout and while long and wide, it looks fairly narrow, great for not taking up space or for use on a shelf layout.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Speaking of stations from overseas (and to keep to our HO topic) I'm always searching though train show junk cartons for components of the Trix Twin (British OO/HO) Manyways Passenger station, they were actively imported here by Polks and others in the late 1940's and 1950's. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It also seems that Gilbert copied that Trix Twin HO station design for their S Scale 792 and 793 trainshed and station design.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I obtained a whole bunch of stuff last week, and finally identified manufacurer of this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It's about 2' long, tower about 14" tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kibri, West Germany in a small ink stamp on the bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The reason I am asking here is no place have I found any reference to Kibri making anything bigger than H0.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yet, the opening doors (with functional latches) are about 1-3/4" tall.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The clock is a wind-up, and works.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> So, if this ISN'T H0, I'll get spanked for being off-topic, but I thought I would ask.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Photos (before I hosed it off) under "Kibri Building".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Anybody know when it was made, what scale it was marketed under, and/or a catalogue number?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11020
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 6/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Prototype for Lindsay Stubby Switcher
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      There's no need to re-scan if the negative is a half-tone.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It's still a great find of an image!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Jun 29, 2009, at 8:14 AM, mmattjcoleman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> You have good eyes. The negative I have was apparently taken from a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> catalog cut and under magnification you can see the half-tone  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> screen. I can rescan at a higher resolution, but I don't think it  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> will make it any better.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- Mike Bauers wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Thank you so much for releasing this image !!!! It's a great vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> You may wish to re-scan the negative. The 'original' view of it is
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> heavily dithered, making it look like it would be ready to   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> lithograph
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> or publish........ 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11021
						From: Graeme
						Date: 6/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Kibri Building
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      In message <h2b8r6+tpvf@...>, the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
<the_plainsman@...> writes
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >A great looking station, from the link that Graeme provided, it looks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>like their top of the line too, what a find! It would not look out of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>place on a US layout and while long and wide, it looks fairly narrow, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>great for not taking up space or for use on a shelf layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Just out of interest, I searched the German eBay site last night, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
noticed the 1957 Kibri catalogue included by H0 and 0, but, by 1960, the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
catalogue referred to H0 only.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Speaking of stations from overseas (and to keep to our HO topic) I'm 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>always searching though train show junk cartons for components of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Trix Twin (British OO/HO) Manyways Passenger station, they were 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>actively imported here by Polks and others in the late 1940's and 1950's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Details of most of the range here, for anyone not familiar with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
range of British Trix buildings :
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.trix.co.uk/Manyways.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Graeme Eldred, Scotland
                                                                                                                                                                                      
TCA 04-57743
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11022
						From: Wallace E. Tabor
						Date: 6/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: John Galt Road (Route)(Lines)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Al Westerfield!  My favorite kit manufacturer, favorite decal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
manufacturer and, most of all, my favorite freight car historian. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks agaian.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Wally Tabor
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Wally T.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The John Gault Lines!  The former road name and layout of an active
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      member of the only other Yahoo Model RR Group I belong to, the New York
                                                                                                                                                                                      
City Mass Transit Modelers group.  He did not have another layout for 17
                                                                                                                                                                                      
years, as his model railroad manufacturing business took much of his
                                                                                                                                                                                      
time. Now nearing retirement, he has recently started on a new layout
                                                                                                                                                                                      
featuring the mostly elevated Pelham Line of the NY City subway system,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
including the accurate modeling of the complex steel elevated structure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
He lives in TN, now, but travels back to the Northeast for several shows
                                                                                                                                                                                      
each year.  No doubt you know of his highly regarded line of HO scale
                                                                                                                                                                                      
resin kits, for his name is Al Westerfield, a very neat modeler to know!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://westerfield.biz/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Wallace E. Tabor" wetabor@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Do any of you remember a model railroad from a while ago that had
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      "The John Galt Lines (Road)(Route) on the tenders of the locomotives. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
That's all that I remember.  Anything else worth knowing?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Wally tabor
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11023
						From: Fred Hultberg
						Date: 7/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Canada Day
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Happy Canada Day!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      (hope it's not belated...)


                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11024
						From: Fred Hultberg
						Date: 7/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Happy Independence Day!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi all, 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Wishing you all a very safe and happy Independence day on the 4th of July. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Please take a moment to remember of our veterans and say a prayer for our troops that are now in harms-way. 



                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11025
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Happy Independence Day!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Fred, And a happy one to you and all, too.   W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hultberg <fhultberg@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi all, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Wishing you all a very safe and happy Independence day on the 4th of July. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Please take a moment to remember of our veterans and say a prayer for our troops that are now in harms-way.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11026
						From: tubamarx
						Date: 7/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Comet Freight Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I was wondering if anyone could give me a little help. Does anyone have info on the roadnames and types of cars Coment made. I think it was a flat, reefer, and a double door boxcar. Also were they made before and after WW2. It also appears AHC ended up selling some of the Comet cars in the early 50's. I tried HOSeeker and there was nothing there about Comet. Any info would help. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Steve Anderson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11027
						From: Russ Shiel
						Date: 7/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      H'lo Steve...when did you check HOSeeker? I had a quick look just now, and there's a Comet folder with five car diagrams. I have half a dozen Comet kits shelved out back...will hunt them out, if anything additional to those on HOSeeker, will send scans to Larry.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chrs! Russ


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere.  Show me how.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11028
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 7/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                      I am looking for a Selley # 333 Brake Lever.  Hopefully the word document with picture will come through.  It is the car I am trying to model.  I know Selley no longer makes this item, but there must be some other manufacturer that has a similar product.  Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11029
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 7/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                      Here is a jpg attachment showing the item in question.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sat, 7/4/09, nvrr49@... <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: nvrr49@... <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 10:50 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I am looking for a Selley # 333 Brake
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Lever.  Hopefully the word document with picture will
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> come through.  It is the car I am trying to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> model.  I know Selley no longer makes this item, but
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> there must be some other manufacturer that has a similar
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> product.  Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11030
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 7/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Can anyone identify?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                      I seem to remember these were put out by Eastern Car Works as conversion kit...to convert a stock Athearn, or some such, to a prototype.  I just don't know what the attach conversion kit is supposed to convert.  Looks to be a reefer conversion of some sort.  This has been hanging on the wall for at least 10 years, and I would like to use it for the intended purpose.  I have looked in several Walthers catalogs and fouond similar items, just not this one.  Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11031
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 7/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have some old Comet cars. Got original Comet box complete with paperwork. And the box says the kit was 35 cents too!

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have Double Door woodside automobile boxcars lettered for the C&EI, MoPac, and GTW.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Reefers lettered for Baby Ruth, Hormel (three of these!), Pluto Water, and one other I can't think of right now.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Pretty nice cars for the day, I think.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sat, 7/4/09, nvrr49@... <nvrr49@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: nvrr49@... <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Looking for Selley part or equivalent [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 10:50 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      






    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      I am looking for a Selley # 333 Brake Lever.  Hopefully the word document with picture will come through.  It is the car I am trying to model.  I know Selley no longer makes this item, but there must be some other manufacturer that has a similar product.  Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11032
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 7/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry about this post, for some reason my Internet broswer crashed, and I re-opened it to post the Comet info, but must have accidentally selected another email to reply to. Never had that happen before.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Apologies,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Looking for Selley part or equivalent
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 1:25 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      






    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      I have some old Comet cars. Got original Comet box complete with paperwork. And the box says the kit was 35 cents too!

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have Double Door woodside automobile boxcars lettered for the C&EI, MoPac, and GTW.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Reefers lettered for Baby Ruth, Hormel (three of these!), Pluto Water, and one other I can't think of right now.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Pretty nice cars for the day, I think.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Sat, 7/4/09, nvrr49@yahoo. com <nvrr49@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: nvrr49@yahoo. com <nvrr49@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Looking for Selley part or equivalent [1
 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 10:50 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      






    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      I am looking for a Selley # 333 Brake Lever.  Hopefully the word document with picture will come through.  It is the car I am trying to model.  I know Selley no longer makes this item, but there must be some other manufacturer that has a similar product.  Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11033
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 7/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Steve,  I thought I did a spread-sheet on this manufactuer some time back, which would have been posted to the files with the help of Chuck H.  If it's not there, then just try the Archives as I know I posted something on them here somewhere.  I have ALL of Comet's kits and posted them all (may even have included the car side numbers, but I don't recall).  If you still can't find them, ask again after you've looked and I'll do a complete listing for them again.  Ray Wetzel  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11034
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Kent H., I have an extra #333 here, email me your address off list and I will mail it out to you tomorrow.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@..." <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I am looking for a Selley # 333 Brake Lever.  Hopefully the word document with picture will come through.  It is the car I am trying to model.  I know Selley no longer makes this item, but there must be some other manufacturer that has a similar product.  Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11035
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Can anyone identify?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent H., Without double checking my parts, it looks like the reefer parts sprue for the Cannonball (ex Kurtz Kraft) reefers, packed and sold by Model RR Warehouse (Red Ball, Cannonball, etc. - Merle Rice's operation in Indianna).  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@..." <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I seem to remember these were put out by Eastern Car Works as conversion kit...to convert a stock Athearn, or some such, to a prototype.  I just don't know what the attach conversion kit is supposed to convert.  Looks to be a reefer conversion of some sort.  This has been hanging on the wall for at least 10 years, and I would like to use it for the intended purpose.  I have looked in several Walthers catalogs and fouond similar items, just not this one.  Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11036
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 7/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "tubamarx" <standerson@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 8:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Comet Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I was wondering if anyone could give me a little help. Does anyone have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>info on the roadnames and types of cars Coment made. I think it was a flat, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>reefer, and a double door boxcar. Also were they made before and after WW2. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>It also appears AHC ended up selling some of the Comet cars in the early 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>50's. I tried HOSeeker and there was nothing there about Comet. Any info 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>would help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Steve Anderson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have a listing somewhere downstairs, but no kit numbers or car numbers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Ca. 1960 or so, a staple in the AHC ad was "15 car kits in a bag, $ 2.99" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
(or it may have been $ 3.99).  I have reason to believe these were actually 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
1 each of the 15 comet kits I'm aware of.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I also have reason to believe the attached photo is a comet,  Russ mentioned 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
he had some unbuilt ones, perhaps he can confirm this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11037
						From: DiDi
						Date: 7/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Just a moderator's note, please only send attachments in .jpg, .gif or 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
similar formats.  Documents other more esoteric formats cannot be opened by 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
many members.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I see you did post a .jpg later, Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 10:50 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Looking for Selley part or equivalent [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I am looking for a Selley # 333 Brake Lever.  Hopefully the word document 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> with picture will come through.  It is the car I am trying to model.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> know Selley no longer makes this item, but there must be some other 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> manufacturer that has a similar product.  Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11038
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 7/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thank you very much.  My mailing address is:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
8311 N W Waukomis Dr
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO 64151
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Kent H., I have an extra #333 here, email me your address off list and I will mail it out to you tomorrow.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@" <nvrr49@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I am looking for a Selley # 333 Brake Lever.  Hopefully the word document with picture will come through.  It is the car I am trying to model.  I know Selley no longer makes this item, but there must be some other manufacturer that has a similar product.  Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11039
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 7/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      nvrr49 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Thank you very much.  My mailing address is:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 8311 N W Waukomis Dr
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO 64151
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Hi Kent H., I have an extra #333 here, email me your address off list and I will mail it out to you tomorrow.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@" <nvrr49@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>     
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> I am looking for a Selley # 333 Brake Lever.  Hopefully the word document with picture will come through.  It is the car I am trying to model.  I know Selley no longer makes this item, but there must be some other manufacturer that has a similar product.  Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      You mention #333 is no longer available ... hope Bowser hasnt dropped 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the entire line ?? There was a lot of useful stuff on the Selley pages.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11040
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Gerold, I don't think that the Selly line is discontinued, but that is a good question to ask Bowser's Lee English at the NMRA National this week in Hartford. I'll add it to my list as I have a 90% chance of being there.  W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> nvrr49 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Thank you very much.  My mailing address is:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 8311 N W Waukomis Dr
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kansas City, MO 64151
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Hi Kent H., I have an extra #333 here, email me your address off list and I will mail it out to you tomorrow.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@" <nvrr49@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>     
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> I am looking for a Selley # 333 Brake Lever.  Hopefully the word document with picture will come through.  It is the car I am trying to model.  I know Selley no longer makes this item, but there must be some other manufacturer that has a similar product.  Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>>       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> You mention #333 is no longer available ... hope Bowser hasnt dropped 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the entire line ?? There was a lot of useful stuff on the Selley pages.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11041
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 7/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Gerold, I don't think that the Selly line is discontinued, but that is a good question to ask Bowser's Lee English at the NMRA National this week in Hartford. I'll add it to my list as I have a 90% chance of being there.  W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
thanks. Maybe you could ask him about status of the parts for Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
boxcars too... I feel we should stock up such parts as long as they are 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
available. I remember some years ago I had a list of MDC parts I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
intended to order, I always postphoned the order to add a few more 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
parts, until Horizon day.... first thing they did was to put a notice on 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the website "no more parts sales"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11042
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 7/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Looking for Selley part or equivalent
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Good call Gerold.  I have been checking with dealers and distributors and none of them stocked it or said they could or would order it.  I can, however, get it direct from Bowser.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So, W Jay W, no need to send yours to me, as I will order it from Bowser.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks to all for pointing me in the correct direction.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> nvrr49 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Thank you very much.  My mailing address is:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 8311 N W Waukomis Dr
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kansas City, MO 64151
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Hi Kent H., I have an extra #333 here, email me your address off list and I will mail it out to you tomorrow.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@" <nvrr49@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>     
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> I am looking for a Selley # 333 Brake Lever.  Hopefully the word document with picture will come through.  It is the car I am trying to model.  I know Selley no longer makes this item, but there must be some other manufacturer that has a similar product.  Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>>       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> You mention #333 is no longer available ... hope Bowser hasnt dropped 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the entire line ?? There was a lot of useful stuff on the Selley pages.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11043
						From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
						Date: 7/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO 
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
group.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  File        : /Cannonball Car Shops /Cannonball Car Shops Conversion Kit listing.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Uploaded by : nvrr49 <nvrr49@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Description : Cannonball Car Shops conversion kit listing 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/Cannonball%20Car%20Shops%20/Cannonball%20Car%20Shops%20Conversion%20Kit%20listing.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
nvrr49 <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11044
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 7/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Can anyone identify?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I just added a file to the group site showing all the conversion kits I could find in the Walthers catalogs.  I have 1983, 87, 90, 94, and 97.  There are none in the 1983 or 97 issues and the look like they are being discontinued in the 94 issue.  The one I have is #32022, and it is not listed in any of the Walthers issues I have.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent H., Without double checking my parts, it looks like the reefer parts sprue for the Cannonball (ex Kurtz Kraft) reefers, packed and sold by Model RR Warehouse (Red Ball, Cannonball, etc. - Merle Rice's operation in Indianna).  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@" <nvrr49@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I seem to remember these were put out by Eastern Car Works as conversion kit...to convert a stock Athearn, or some such, to a prototype.  I just don't know what the attach conversion kit is supposed to convert.  Looks to be a reefer conversion of some sort.  This has been hanging on the wall for at least 10 years, and I would like to use it for the intended purpose.  I have looked in several Walthers catalogs and fouond similar items, just not this one.  Any help would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11045
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 7/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Can anyone identify?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  
  

 
nvrr49 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I just added a file to the group site showing all the conversion kits I could find in the Walthers catalogs.  I have 1983, 87, 90, 94, and 97.  There are none in the 1983 or 97 issues and the look like they are being discontinued in the 94 issue.  The one I have is #32022, and it is not listed in any of the Walthers issues I have.
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
There is some interesting stuff , especially the kits intended to
modify the MDC harriman cars, a pity they are no longer available. -  I
purchased two sets of Day coach sides for MDC Overland cars maybe five
years ago from Merle Rice, seems  this was  kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
   
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      32527
50' Coach Sides $ 5.00 Fits MDC Overland cars, allowing conversion to
several styles of daycoach, Jim Crow, etc. (Limited Quantities
available)
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
remember the website told this were leftovers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11046
						From: Lee
						Date: 7/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: varney book on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      



								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11047
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 7/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: tips on frame for old Mantua Pacific please
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I now have accumulated enough parts to re-assemble a decent Mantua 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Pacific of the, "worm gear mounted to frame," vintage.  I've been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
looking to find one I could complete.  This would have the motor 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
coupled to gearbox with flexible hose coupling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Trouble is, the frame that came along has both of the cross head 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
guide supports broken off the frame.  I have one of the broken sides, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
but the other was lost by previous owner;  as if reattaching was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
practical anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So I need to find a frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Question:  does this vintage Mantua Pacific use the same frame as the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mantua Hudson of the same time period???  If so, I'd have two 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
possible answers should either come along.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11048
						From: Russ Shiel
						Date: 7/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Comet MKT 67001
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello Don (and All!)...now awake in the sthn hemisphere....yes, MKT #67001 is a Comet kit...if you have Dave Spanagel's list of card-sided cars he assembled with 'The Reporting Mark', it's listed as R-7 '40' OBWS , DD AUTO, CLASS XA', along with Comet's other 14 card-sided cars. Chrs! Russ in Adelaide, where it was 3 oC this morning, and our snow-dog was hopeful....he's never seen snow!

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sun, 5/7/09, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I also have reason to believe the attached photo is a comet, Russ mentioned 
                                                                                                                                                                                      he had some unbuilt ones, perhaps he can confirm this. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere.  Show me how.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11049
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 7/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      For what it is worth to the group, I recently bought an assortment of paper car sides on eBay. There was a Comet Pluto Water reefer and a Baby Ruth reefer side set. I have two Mantua brass and cast reefer bodies that has beat up (I mean, VERY beat up) paper overlays. I discovered just now the Comet sides will fit a Mantua brass car exactly, with no trimming needed. The comet sides are slightly thicker, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Now I got two 'hybrid' cars that are looking pretty sharp!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sun, 7/5/09, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Comet Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 6:33 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Steve,  I thought I did a spread-sheet on this manufactuer some time back, which would have been posted to the files with the help of Chuck H.  If it's not there, then just try the Archives as I know I posted something on them here somewhere.  I have ALL of Comet's kits and posted them all (may even have included the car side numbers, but I don't recall).  If you still can't find them, ask again after you've looked and I'll do a complete listing for them again.  Ray Wetzel   
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11050
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 7/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Don, yes for sure this is a Comet car. I have the same car in my roster.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Comet Freight Cars [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 8:10 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "tubamarx" <standerson@bresnan. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 8:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Comet Freight Cars

                                                                                                                                                                                      >I was wondering if anyone could give me a little help. Does anyone have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >info on the roadnames and types of cars Coment made. I think it was a flat, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >reefer, and a double door boxcar. Also were they made before and after WW2. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >It also appears AHC ended up selling some of the Comet cars in the early 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >50's. I tried HOSeeker and there was nothing there about Comet. Any info 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >would
 help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Steve Anderson

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a listing somewhere downstairs, but no kit numbers or car numbers.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Ca. 1960 or so, a staple in the AHC ad was "15 car kits in a bag, $ 2.99" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      (or it may have been $ 3.99). I have reason to believe these were actually 
                                                                                                                                                                                      1 each of the 15 comet kits I'm aware of.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I also have reason to believe the attached photo is a comet, Russ mentioned 
                                                                                                                                                                                      he had some unbuilt ones, perhaps he can confirm this.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.youtube. com/user/
 CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                      Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11051
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 7/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: tips on frame for old Mantua Pacific please
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have seen on eBay people offering the Pacific frames, and saying they will work on the Hudson.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Mantua frames and boilers tend to be interchangable, more or less. I have made USRA 'light' mikados usng the Pacific/Hudson boiler on Mike frames, and adding a Bowser 32' tender behind (Which is based on the Varney castings). Just finished converting an engine like this yesterday, only the tender needs a coat of paint.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Dennis Thompson <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] tips on frame for old Mantua Pacific please
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 6:39 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I now have accumulated enough parts to re-assemble a decent Mantua 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Pacific of the, "worm gear mounted to frame," vintage. I've been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      looking to find one I could complete. This would have the motor 
                                                                                                                                                                                      coupled to gearbox with flexible hose coupling.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Trouble is, the frame that came along has both of the cross head 
                                                                                                                                                                                      guide supports broken off the frame. I have one of the broken sides, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      but the other was lost by previous owner; as if reattaching was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      practical anyway.

                                                                                                                                                                                      So I need to find a frame.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Question: does this vintage Mantua Pacific use the same frame as the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mantua Hudson of the same time period??? If so, I'd have two 
                                                                                                                                                                                      possible answers should either come along.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11052
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 7/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      I don’t have a file for Comet kits,
so I must have missed that post.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      :
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  From: erieberk@wmconnect. com 
  < erieberk@wmconnect. com >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Comet Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 6:33 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Steve,  I thought I did a spread-sheet on this
  manufactuer some time back, which would have been posted to the files with
  the help of Chuck H.  If it's not there, then just try the Archives as I
  know I posted something on them here somewhere.  I have ALL of Comet's
  kits and posted them all (may even have included the car side numbers, but I
  don't recall).  If you still can't find them, ask again after you've
  looked and I'll do a complete listing for them again.  Ray Wetzel   
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11053
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chuck, In checking back through the archives, I see discussions started on Comet just about two years ago, and really churned out a lot of messaging early last year, but I can't find any such listing on Comet as I thought I may have posted.  The main problem with searching the archives though, is that while key words such as "erieberk Comet list" will bring up my back messages containing these words, every message of mine and of other contributors to the thread with all show the same wording.  You won't see any individual messages by anyone unless you open each and every one.  Since the Subject line indicates other manufacturers (like Athearn or Red Ball, etc.), I have to assume that Comet was only mentioned at those times and was not the focus of the discussions.  I'm sure I would have had Comet in the Subject line if my posts related to that manufacturer.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So, with this in mind, I'll give you the info for Comet here, and you can file it as a spread-sheet, if you would, please.  There's only one roadnumber per roadname.  I'm somewhat surprised that Steve didn't ask about more info on this, as I said I'd list these kits again if they couldn't be found and just assumed that they had been found since I hadn't heard anything further.  As you've no doubt read, there are only 15 cars that were produced.  One particularly nice box was red with black & yellow printing.  I distinctly recall the price of 35 cents (less trucks) -- which sounds reasonable enough -- but not to a 10 year old at the time when similar kits could be had for not much more, with trucks.  I got my first one (T&P Auto Boxcar) as a birthday present from a school chum, and soon found that when carefully assembled, these kits built up quite nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Alright, here's the listing for Comet Models:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Refrigerator Car:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
R-1 Pluto Water 4907  *  R-2 Baby Ruth 6201  *  R-3 Hormel Foods 803  *  R-4 MDT (NYC) 20683  *  R-5  Green Bay & Western 9353  *  R-6 ART 21594  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Automobile Box Cars: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
R-7 MKT 67001  *  R-8 Wabash 47705  *  R-9 GTW 583699  *  R-10 T&P 61525  *  R-11 MP 79449  *  R-12 C&EI 1277
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Flat Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
R-13 L&N 24560  *  R-14 C&NW 42591  *  R-15 MILW 63613
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As we've found out in previous discussions, at least one of these car side numbers (GB&W 9353) was also used by another manufacturer (Red Ball) at the time, so care must be taken so as not to confuse them.  Not having the cars in front of me, I can only guess as to the colors as I picture them, but would need to really check them out if you want to use verified colors.  For general information only at this time, R-1 White, R-2 Red, R-3 Yellow, R-4 White R-5 Grey, R-6 Yellow, R-7 Yellow -- all the rest, I believe are Box Car Red.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Later,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I don't have a file for Comet kits, so I must have missed that post.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> :
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Comet Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 6:33 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Steve,  I thought I did a spread-sheet on this manufactuer some time
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> back, which would have been posted to the files with the help of Chuck H.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> If it's not there, then just try the Archives as I know I posted something
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> on them here somewhere.  I have ALL of Comet's kits and posted them all (may
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> even have included the car side numbers, but I don't recall).  If you still
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> can't find them, ask again after you've looked and I'll do a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> listing for them again.  Ray Wetzel   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> __._,_.__
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11054
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 7/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Interesting to hear about Comet in the model RR field.  Back when I was nine 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
or so, I was building just about all the airplanes that Co listed in their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
10- and 25-cent lines--there were train cars shown on the boxes, but my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
local hobby shops didn't seem to know about them--this would be around 1950 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
or so--  so they actually did exist?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 4:56 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Comet Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Chuck, In checking back through the archives, I see discussions started 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> on Comet just about two years ago, and really churned out a lot of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> messaging early last year, but I can't find any such listing on Comet as I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> thought I may have posted.  The main problem with searching the archives 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> though, is that while key words such as "erieberk Comet list" will bring 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> up my back messages containing these words, every message of mine and of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> other contributors to the thread with all show the same wording.  You 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> won't see any individual messages by anyone unless you open each and every 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> one.  Since the Subject line indicates other manufacturers (like Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> or Red Ball, etc.), I have to assume that Comet was only mentioned at 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> those times and was not the focus of the discussions.  I'm sure I would 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have had Comet in the Subject line if my posts related to that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> manufacturer.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> So, with this in mind, I'll give you the info for Comet here, and you can 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> file it as a spread-sheet, if you would, please.  There's only one 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> roadnumber per roadname.  I'm somewhat surprised that Steve didn't ask 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> about more info on this, as I said I'd list these kits again if they 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> couldn't be found and just assumed that they had been found since I hadn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> heard anything further.  As you've no doubt read, there are only 15 cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that were produced.  One particularly nice box was red with black & yellow 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> printing.  I distinctly recall the price of 35 cents (less trucks) --  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> which sounds reasonable enough -- but not to a 10 year old at the time 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> when similar kits could be had for not much more, with trucks.  I got my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> first one (T&P Auto Boxcar) as a birthday present from a school chum, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> soon found that when carefully assembled, these kits built up quite 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Alright, here's the listing for Comet Models:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Refrigerator Car:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> R-1 Pluto Water 4907  *  R-2 Baby Ruth 6201  *  R-3 Hormel Foods 803  * 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> R-4 MDT (NYC) 20683  *  R-5  Green Bay & Western 9353  *  R-6 ART 21594
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Automobile Box Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> R-7 MKT 67001  *  R-8 Wabash 47705  *  R-9 GTW 583699  *  R-10 T&P 61525 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> *  R-11 MP 79449  *  R-12 C&EI 1277
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Flat Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> R-13 L&N 24560  *  R-14 C&NW 42591  *  R-15 MILW 63613
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> As we've found out in previous discussions, at least one of these car side 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> numbers (GB&W 9353) was also used by another manufacturer (Red Ball) at 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the time, so care must be taken so as not to confuse them.  Not having the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> cars in front of me, I can only guess as to the colors as I picture them, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> but would need to really check them out if you want to use verified 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> colors.  For general information only at this time, R-1 White, R-2 Red, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> R-3 Yellow, R-4 White R-5 Grey, R-6 Yellow, R-7 Yellow -- all the rest, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> believe are Box Car Red.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Later,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Hi Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I don't have a file for Comet kits, so I must have missed that post.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> :
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Comet Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Date: Sunday, July 5, 2009, 6:33 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Hi Steve,  I thought I did a spread-sheet on this manufactuer some time
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> back, which would have been posted to the files with the help of Chuck H.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> If it's not there, then just try the Archives as I know I posted 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> something
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> on them here somewhere.  I have ALL of Comet's kits and posted them all 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> (may
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> even have included the car side numbers, but I don't recall).  If you 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> still
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> can't find them, ask again after you've looked and I'll do a complete
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> listing for them again.  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> __._,_.__
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11055
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 7/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      OK loaded to the group site.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 7:56
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Comet
Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chuck, In checking back through the archives, I see
discussions started on Comet just about two years ago, and really churned out a
lot of messaging early last year, but I can't find any such listing on Comet as
I thought I may have posted. Alright, here's the listing for Comet Models:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Refrigerator Car:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
R-1 Pluto Water 4907 * R-2 Baby Ruth 6201 * R-3 Hormel Foods 803 * R-4 MDT
(NYC) 20683 * R-5 Green Bay & Western 9353 * R-6 ART 21594 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Automobile Box Cars: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
R-7 MKT 67001 * R-8 Wabash 47705 * R-9 GTW 583699 * R-10 T&P 61525 * R-11
MP 79449 * R-12 C&EI 1277
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Flat Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
R-13 L&N 24560 * R-14 C&NW 42591 * R-15 MILW 63613
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As we've found out in previous discussions, at least one of these car side
numbers (GB&W 9353) was also used by another manufacturer (Red Ball) at the
time, so care must be taken so as not to confuse them. Not having the cars in
front of me, I can only guess as to the colors as I picture them, but would
need to really check them out if you want to use verified colors. For general
information only at this time, R-1 White, R-2 Red, R-3 Yellow, R-4 White R-5
Grey, R-6 Yellow, R-7 Yellow -- all the rest, I believe are Box Car Red. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Later, Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11056
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 7/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Just looked, the Pluto Water is a pale yellow, not white.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Tue, 7/7/09, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Comet Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2009, 6:49 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      






    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      






                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      OK loaded to the group site.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 7:56
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Comet
Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chuck, In checking back through the archives, I see
discussions started on Comet just about two years ago, and really churned out a
lot of messaging early last year, but I can't find any such listing on Comet as
I thought I may have posted. Alright, here's the listing for Comet Models:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Refrigerator Car:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
R-1 Pluto Water 4907 * R-2 Baby Ruth 6201 * R-3 Hormel Foods 803 * R-4 MDT
(NYC) 20683 * R-5 Green Bay & Western 9353 * R-6 ART 21594 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Automobile Box Cars: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
R-7 MKT 67001 * R-8 Wabash 47705 * R-9 GTW 583699 * R-10 T&P 61525 * R-11
MP 79449 * R-12 C&EI 1277
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Flat Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
R-13 L&N 24560 * R-14 C&NW 42591 * R-15 MILW 63613
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As we've found out in previous discussions, at least one of these car side
numbers (GB&W 9353) was also used by another manufacturer (Red Ball) at the
time, so care must be taken so as not to confuse them. Not having the cars in
front of me, I can only guess as to the colors as I picture them, but would
need to really check them out if you want to use verified colors. For general
information only at this time, R-1 White, R-2 Red, R-3 Yellow, R-4 White R-5
Grey, R-6 Yellow, R-7 Yellow -- all the rest, I believe are Box Car Red. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Later, Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      




	
	


 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11057
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 7/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Some New Acquisitions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Last night at the meeting of the San Jac MRRC in Houston someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
brought several boxes of stuff that was laid out for grabs. Mostly 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
plastic, but I picked out some items for which I have a few questions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
These may not be truly vintage in the pure sense of the group but OTOH 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
maybe so.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    The first group of items, and the best of those I grabbed, is a set 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of Roundhouse 50' Overland cars factory painted for the Gorre & 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Daphetid. The kit plans are dated 6/84. I'm wondering if anybody knows 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
if these were a stock Roundhouse item or were they a special run, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
when they were made. The set includes a combine, an RPO, a coach, and a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
business car.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    The next item is an Athearn GP painted in SP scarlet and gray. At 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
first I thought it was a GP7 or GP9 when I grabbed it but later realized 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the dynamic brake blisters were wrong. I had to wait until I got home 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and pulled out my old Diesel Spotter's Guide to find out it's a GP 35. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Shows how little I really know about these things. The one thing I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
wonder about is that it has metal hand rails. Didn't Athearn switch to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
plastic hand rails like everybody else at some point? So maybe this is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
an earlier model?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    The last few items are nothing special - an Athearn (I think) tank 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
car painted for SP Diesel Fuel Service, numbered 60683; an Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Cudahy double sheathed reefer with Old Dutch Cleanser on it; and an 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Athearn Blatz Old Heidelberg steel reefer. This last one is missing an 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
ice hatch, so if anybody has a spare in their parts box I could use one, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
black.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
"Is Marx's tomb a communist plot?"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    -Stephen Wright
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11058
						From: Mike Sloane
						Date: 7/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Some New Acquisitions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Roundhouse did a whole series of Gorre & Dephetid cars. I have a 40' box 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
car in that series. It was a short run, and not every HS had them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As far as the Athearn GP-35, I seem to recall that when Athearn brought 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
it out, it was much criticized by everyone as being horribly inaccurate 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
(don't recall in what ways). I am sure that others could add to that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
conversation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
A lot of Athearn cars were painted up and lettered for uncommon roads 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and MOW service by Bev-Bel in the 80s(?). The quality was excellent, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
there isn't much documentation of what was produced that I have found.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Rick Jones wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Last night at the meeting of the San Jac MRRC in Houston someone
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> brought several boxes of stuff that was laid out for grabs. Mostly
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> plastic, but I picked out some items for which I have a few questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> These may not be truly vintage in the pure sense of the group but OTOH
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> maybe so.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The first group of items, and the best of those I grabbed, is a set
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of Roundhouse 50' Overland cars factory painted for the Gorre &
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Daphetid. The kit plans are dated 6/84. I'm wondering if anybody knows
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> if these were a stock Roundhouse item or were they a special run, and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> when they were made. The set includes a combine, an RPO, a coach, and a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> business car.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The next item is an Athearn GP painted in SP scarlet and gray. At
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> first I thought it was a GP7 or GP9 when I grabbed it but later realized
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the dynamic brake blisters were wrong. I had to wait until I got home
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and pulled out my old Diesel Spotter's Guide to find out it's a GP 35.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Shows how little I really know about these things. The one thing I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> wonder about is that it has metal hand rails. Didn't Athearn switch to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> plastic hand rails like everybody else at some point? So maybe this is
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> an earlier model?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The last few items are nothing special - an Athearn (I think) tank
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> car painted for SP Diesel Fuel Service, numbered 60683; an Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Cudahy double sheathed reefer with Old Dutch Cleanser on it; and an
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Athearn Blatz Old Heidelberg steel reefer. This last one is missing an
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ice hatch, so if anybody has a spare in their parts box I could use one,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> black.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Rick Jones 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11059
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 7/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Some New Acquisitions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 
 
 
 
 

 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Editor, Green Bay &
Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Green Bay & Western
Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009
11:48
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Some New
Acquisitions
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      Last night at the meeting of the San Jac MRRC in
 Houston someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
brought several boxes of stuff that was laid out for grabs. Mostly 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
plastic, but I picked out some items for which I have a few questions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
These may not be truly vintage in the pure sense of the group but OTOH 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
maybe so.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The first group of items, and the best of those I grabbed, is a set 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of Roundhouse 50' Overland cars factory
painted for the Gorre & 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Daphetid. The kit plans are dated 6/84. I'm wondering if anybody knows 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
if these were a stock Roundhouse item or were they a special run, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
when they were made. The set includes a combine, an RPO, a coach, and a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
business                                                                                                                                                                                       car.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      [John Hagen] The G&D
cars were a “limited run” as compared to others that were produced
for several years. As compared to many of today’s cars, which are all “special
run” in that they are only so many are built and then the manufacturer
switches over to another project, who is to say. I
believe the date on the instruction sheet is pretty accurate.
                                                                                                                                                                                       



                                                                                                                                                                                      
The next item is an Athearn GP painted in SP scarlet and gray. At 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
first I thought it was a GP7 or GP9 when I grabbed it but later realized 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the dynamic brake blisters were wrong. I had to wait until I got home 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and pulled out my old Diesel Spotter's Guide to find out it's a GP 35. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Shows how little I really know about these things. The one thing I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
wonder about is that it has metal hand rails. Didn't Athearn switch to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
plastic hand rails like everybody else at some point? So maybe this is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
an                                                                                                                                                                                       earlier model?
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      [John Hagen] Athearn continued the use of metal
hand rails on it’s diesels as long as they were built in
 California . The good “blue
box” Athearn if my thinking is correct.
                                                                                                                                                                                       



                                                                                                                                                                                      
The last few items are nothing special - an Athearn (I think) tank 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
car                                                                                                                                                                                       painted for SP Diesel Fuel Service, numbered 60683; an Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 Cudahy double
sheathed reefer with Old Dutch Cleanser on it; and an 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Athearn Blatz Old Heidelberg steel reefer. This last one is missing an 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
ice hatch, so if anybody has a spare in their parts box I could use one, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
black.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
"Is Marx's tomb a communist plot?"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
-Stephen Wright
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11060
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 7/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Some New Acquisitions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 
 
 
 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Editor, Green Bay &
Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Green Bay & Western
Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Sloane
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009
12:06
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Some New
Acquisitions
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Roundhouse did a whole series of Gorre & Dephetid
cars. I have a 40' box 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
car in that series. It was a short run, and not every HS had them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As far as the Athearn GP-35, I seem to recall that when Athearn brought 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
it out, it was much criticized by everyone as being horribly inaccurate 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
(don't recall in what ways). I am sure that others could add to that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
conversation                                                                                                                                                                                      .
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      [John Hagen] Actually it was the
Athearn GP-30 that was so very bad that they took it off the market and then recut the dies for the GP-35. The 35 wasn’t bad. Just
typical for Athearn in it that it had overwidth hoods.
It was a generic model that probably did not exactly match any particular
prototype. But that was industry wide back then and even many brass diesels
were generic in their detailing. This making them road specific has only been
happening for, what, twenty years maybe?
                                                                                                                                                                                       



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
A lot of Athearn cars were painted up and lettered for uncommon roads 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and                                                                                                                                                                                       MOW service by Bev-Bel in the 80s(?). The quality was excellent, but

                                                                                                                                                                                      
there isn't much documentation of what was produced that I have found.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11061
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 7/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Some New Acquisitions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The G&D cars were a special limited run back in the 1980's.  4 cars.    As 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to the Athearn diesels, I think they were still using wire handrails until 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the Horizon era.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 9:48 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Some New Acquisitions
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Last night at the meeting of the San Jac MRRC in Houston someone
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> brought several boxes of stuff that was laid out for grabs. Mostly
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> plastic, but I picked out some items for which I have a few questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> These may not be truly vintage in the pure sense of the group but OTOH
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> maybe so.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    The first group of items, and the best of those I grabbed, is a set
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of Roundhouse 50' Overland cars factory painted for the Gorre &
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Daphetid. The kit plans are dated 6/84. I'm wondering if anybody knows
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> if these were a stock Roundhouse item or were they a special run, and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> when they were made. The set includes a combine, an RPO, a coach, and a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> business car.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    The next item is an Athearn GP painted in SP scarlet and gray. At
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> first I thought it was a GP7 or GP9 when I grabbed it but later realized
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the dynamic brake blisters were wrong. I had to wait until I got home
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and pulled out my old Diesel Spotter's Guide to find out it's a GP 35.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Shows how little I really know about these things. The one thing I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> wonder about is that it has metal hand rails. Didn't Athearn switch to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> plastic hand rails like everybody else at some point? So maybe this is
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> an earlier model?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    The last few items are nothing special - an Athearn (I think) tank
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> car painted for SP Diesel Fuel Service, numbered 60683; an Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Cudahy double sheathed reefer with Old Dutch Cleanser on it; and an
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Athearn Blatz Old Heidelberg steel reefer. This last one is missing an
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ice hatch, so if anybody has a spare in their parts box I could use one,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> black.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> "Is Marx's tomb a communist plot?"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    -Stephen Wright
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.387 / Virus Database: 270.13.8/2224 - Release Date: 07/08/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
05:53:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11062
						From: Thomas Donahue
						Date: 7/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Some New Acquisitions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Rick,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I see the Athearn ice hatches, in sets of four, on eBay all the time for under five bucks.   Good luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Tom Donahue
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Melbourne, FL
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2009 12:48:25 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Some New Acquisitions

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Last night at the meeting of the San Jac MRRC in Houston someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                      brought several boxes of stuff that was laid out for grabs. Mostly 
                                                                                                                                                                                      plastic, but I picked out some items for which I have a few questions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      These may not be truly vintage in the pure sense of the group but OTOH 
                                                                                                                                                                                      maybe so.
                                                                                                                                                                                      The first group of items, and the best of those I grabbed, is a set 
                                                                                                                                                                                      of Roundhouse 50' Overland cars factory painted for the Gorre & 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Daphetid. The kit plans are dated 6/84. I'm wondering if anybody knows 
                                                                                                                                                                                      if these were a stock Roundhouse item or were they a special run, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      when they were made. The set includes a combine, an RPO, a coach, and a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      business car..
                                                                                                                                                                                      The next item is an Athearn GP painted in SP scarlet and gray. At 
                                                                                                                                                                                      first I thought it was a GP7 or GP9 when I grabbed it but later realized 
                                                                                                                                                                                      the dynamic brake blisters were wrong. I had to wait until I got home 
                                                                                                                                                                                      and pulled out my old Diesel Spotter's Guide to find
 out it's a GP 35. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Shows how little I really know about these things. The one thing I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      wonder about is that it has metal hand rails. Didn't Athearn switch to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      plastic hand rails like everybody else at some point? So maybe this is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      an earlier model?
                                                                                                                                                                                      The last few items are nothing special - an Athearn (I think) tank 
                                                                                                                                                                                      car painted for SP Diesel Fuel Service, numbered 60683; an Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Cudahy double sheathed reefer with Old Dutch Cleanser on it; and an 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Athearn Blatz Old Heidelberg steel reefer. This last one is missing an 
                                                                                                                                                                                      ice hatch, so if anybody has a spare in their parts box I could use one, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      black.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -- 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Rick Jones

                                                                                                                                                                                      "Is Marx's tomb a communist plot?"
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Stephen Wright

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11063
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 7/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Some New Acquisitions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Glenn476 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > The G&D cars were a special limited run back in the 1980's.  4 cars.    As 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to the Athearn diesels, I think they were still using wire handrails until 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the Horizon era.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks. I was unaware they had stuck to the metal detail parts for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
so long.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11064
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 7/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Red Ball Cook Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Have been watching a Red Ball Cook Car at ebay -
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=150356226702
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
but it is already beyond what I would pay for it; however I am curious 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
if this is the real thing or if the parts have been mixed up?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
My catalogs and those at HOseeker show a different window arrangement.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
And, whats the reason for the strange sowbelly frame?   Looks like a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
deep well car with a carbody on it... any idea whats the reason for this 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
construction?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11065
						From: jerrygart5
						Date: 7/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Some New Acquisitions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Last night at the meeting of the San Jac MRRC in Houston someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> brought several boxes of stuff that was laid out for grabs. Mostly 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> plastic, but I picked out some items for which I have a few questions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> These may not be truly vintage in the pure sense of the group but OTOH 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> maybe so.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     The first group of items, and the best of those I grabbed, is a set 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of Roundhouse 50' Overland cars factory painted for the Gorre & 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Daphetid. The kit plans are dated 6/84. I'm wondering if anybody knows 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> if these were a stock Roundhouse item or were they a special run, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> when they were made. The set includes a combine, an RPO, a coach, and a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> business car.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     The next item is an Athearn GP painted in SP scarlet and gray. At 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> first I thought it was a GP7 or GP9 when I grabbed it but later realized 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the dynamic brake blisters were wrong. I had to wait until I got home 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and pulled out my old Diesel Spotter's Guide to find out it's a GP 35. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Shows how little I really know about these things. The one thing I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> wonder about is that it has metal hand rails. Didn't Athearn switch to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> plastic hand rails like everybody else at some point? So maybe this is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> an earlier model?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     The last few items are nothing special - an Athearn (I think) tank 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> car painted for SP Diesel Fuel Service, numbered 60683; an Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Cudahy double sheathed reefer with Old Dutch Cleanser on it; and an 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Athearn Blatz Old Heidelberg steel reefer. This last one is missing an 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ice hatch, so if anybody has a spare in their parts box I could use one, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> black.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Rick:  Apparently MDC did short runs of G & D cars at various times.  I have a boxcar, gondola and caboose (all "old time" 36' cars), and a "Sierra" shorty passenger coach.  I don't recall the dates, but think it was in the early '80's that I bought them.  I heard about the 50 ft. cars, but never have seen one.  They are somewhat collectible-especially if they are in good shape.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Wire handrails on Athearn "Blue Box" locomotives are common to this day.  You can still buy them (locomotives), as well as the handrails to repair the locos, from Horizon/Athearn.  Plastic handrails are typically furnished with the Athearn China made RTR locomotives.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The other cars you mention are pretty common.  One nice thing that Athearn started doing some 10 years ago: many times, when they make a "new" run of cars of a particular road name, they change the numbers (reporting marks) on the cars. So you may see the "same" car, just a different reporting number on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Enjoy your new goodies!!   Jerry Garteiser
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11066
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 7/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Cook Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      This why I feel I want to work with the catalog illustrations for one  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of these models. My unit cost would be more reasonable.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Jul 8, 2009, at 3:00 PM, Gerold Eckl wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Have been watching a Red Ball Cook Car at ebay -
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=150356226702
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> but it is already beyond what I would pay for it; however I am curious
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> if this is the real thing or if the parts have been mixed up?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> My catalogs and those at HOseeker show a different window arrangement.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> And, whats the reason for the strange sowbelly frame?   Looks like a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> deep well car with a carbody on it... any idea whats the reason for  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> this
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> construction?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks Gerold 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11067
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Cook Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
One of the reasons I signed on to eBay eight or nine years ago was Red Ball, have been a Red Ball fan ever since I ordered my fist kit from Howell Day in the late 1960's as a teen modeler, and one of my favorite Red Ball cars of the hundreds manufactured is this one! Right now one is positioned behind my Rotary plow and tender, with the brace sided caboose behind. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Yes, I watched this kit too, and the twenty dollar or so premium is attributed to the anniversary sticker and packaging. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The original car was a turn of the Twentieth Century combination box car and tank car, the theory being oil could be transported to market and freight back on the return trip.  Prototype by Brooks, I believe.  I think Art Griffin(?) may have a photo of the prototype available.  As for the Cook's Car conversion, do not know the prototype, but am fairly sure it existed, as M. Dale Newton used prototype data for 99% of his models, being pretty much the Al Westerfield of his day.  I believe the great John Anderson (later of Kemtron and even later co-founder of CalScale) had a hand in developing both models, the Overland Oil prototype and the Cook's car version as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
M. Dale Newton also had another, completely differnt kitchen car in the Red Ball line, that also sold last night. I have a collection of most of Red Pall paper from 1939 Los Angeles days on, so will be glad to research any Red Ball questions you may have.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Have been watching a Red Ball Cook Car at ebay -
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=150356226702
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> but it is already beyond what I would pay for it; however I am curious 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> if this is the real thing or if the parts have been mixed up?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> My catalogs and those at HOseeker show a different window arrangement.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> And, whats the reason for the strange sowbelly frame?   Looks like a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> deep well car with a carbody on it... any idea whats the reason for this 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> construction?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11068
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 7/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: MDC G&D cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Here is a link to a listing of G&D ( and DG&H) cars, with embedded 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/MDC_Roster.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11069
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Another G&D Boxcar besides the MDC G&D cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
G&D fans should also be on the lookout for a G&D printed card sided boxcar models as well.  The G&D sides were part of a series of sides in various scales including HO that were printed honoring famed model railroads in the NMRA Bulletins circa 1980. The Gorre & Daphetid Car sides appeared in the December 1980 NMRA Bulletin, page 34.  I do not have that issue or model, so can not say what the car # is.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Here is a link to a listing of G&D ( and DG&H) cars, with embedded 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/MDC_Roster.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11070
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 7/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: MDC G&D cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Gerold Eckl wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Here is a link to a listing of G&D ( and DG&H) cars, with embedded 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.gdlines.com/GD_Galleries/MDC_Roster.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          Yep, that's the set I got at the meeting Tuesday night. The four 50' 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Overland cars about halfway down the page.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
"The brain is a wonderful organ. It starts working when you get up in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the morning, and doesn't stop until you get to the office."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    -Robert Frost
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11071
						From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com
						Date: 7/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: I know its a long shot
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Hey Folks
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       Im looking for a Varney caboose....Its Grey and has Rio 
Grande lettering...any help would be 
appreciated...............Bill
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11072
						From: sottguy
						Date: 7/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: new photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I've posted some photos to AL-2s album in the Photos of passenger equipment from my collection..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Al
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11073
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Challenger Challenge
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean, Just letting you know the Challenger tender arrived in today's mail in great shape.  Thanks again for you help in getting one of these.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I do have a tender. It is in very good shape. $8 will give me a couple $ and will get it shipped to you. It really needs very little work. See pics:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks, Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 4:14:22 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Challenger Challenge
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I've been motivated to complete an operational, fairly complete original
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Bowser Challenger project that has been around for a few years without
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> breaking the bank. Does anyone have any of the following parts that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> could help with my restoration project? Used or new, doesn't matter, as
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> most of our our locomotives are but a collection of used parts! Plus
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sometimes the older parts fit older versions better, too!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> This is what I am looking for: smoke box front, trailing truck, two
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> front air compressors; power reverse casting; small exhaust pipes (not
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> large steam pipes); 4 main rods; 4 eccentrics; both rear - left & right
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> crossheads, both valve gear hangers plus all the valve gear - I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> consider whatever you have, be it individual parts, partially assembled,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> mangled or assembled, and if I wind up with extra, make them available
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to the next person tackling one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Also looking to find one of the old Bowser wood tenders; again, it does not matter if you have a poorly finished old example I can repair and refinish.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Please let me know either on or off list, with what you may have and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> what you need to complete the transaction.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11074
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: new photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Al,  "Some photos" indeed, those are excellent and not only show off your vintage passenger cars well, but do justice to your modeling and photography skills, too!  I like the perspective and setting of each scene, plus the lighting is great!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
he rest of your modeling  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "sottguy" <aiberg@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I've posted some photos to AL-2s album in the Photos of passenger equipment from my collection..
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Al
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11075
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 7/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks Steve, updated file.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Stephen Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 8:25
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Comet
Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Just looked, the Pluto Water is a pale yellow, not
  white.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  --- On Tue, 7/7/09, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@verizon. net>
  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@verizon. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Comet Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2009, 6:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      OK loaded to the group site.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
  http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
  [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogroups. com] On
  Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009
  7:56 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Comet
  Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chuck, In checking back through the archives, I
  see discussions started on Comet just about two years ago, and really churned
  out a lot of messaging early last year, but I can't find any such listing on
  Comet as I thought I may have posted. Alright, here's the listing for Comet
  Models:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Refrigerator Car:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  R-1 Pluto Water 4907 * R-2 Baby Ruth 6201 * R-3 Hormel Foods 803 * R-4 MDT
  (NYC) 20683 * R-5 Green Bay & Western 9353 * R-6 ART 21594 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Automobile Box Cars: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  R-7 MKT 67001 * R-8 Wabash 47705 * R-9 GTW
  583699 * R-10 T&P 61525 * R-11 MP 79449 * R-12 C&EI 1277
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Flat Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  R-13 L&N 24560 * R-14 C&NW 42591 * R-15 MILW 63613
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  As we've found out in previous discussions, at least one of these car side
  numbers (GB&W 9353) was also used by another manufacturer (Red Ball) at
  the time, so care must be taken so as not to confuse them. Not having the cars
  in front of me, I can only guess as to the colors as I picture them, but
  would need to really check them out if you want to use verified colors. For
  general information only at this time, R-1 White, R-2 Red, R-3 Yellow, R-4
  White R-5 Grey, R-6 Yellow, R-7 Yellow -- all the rest, I believe are Box Car
  Red. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Later, Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                        		
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11076
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 7/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Westwood instructions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi ,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
have got a Westwood "Pennsylvania Limited" Observation kit which has 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
been started ... obviously the builder gave up when he came to the roof; 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
clerestory is present but the (roof) side parts are missing... also no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
instructions. Would appreciate any help; havent found any thing at 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
HOseeker or in my own files. In the worst case I might substitute a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
LaBelle roof but would prefer to have it completed correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11077
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Westwood instructions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Gerold, Nothing here, except to say you might want to check the July, 1971 Model Railroader Trade Topics article, p.26.  As I remeber, it had a good close up of the one they built and possibly several construction hints as well. With that and some standard Westwood instructions and drawings, you could have a fairly good idea of how to proceed if no one can dig up a copy.  As I recall, Westwood changed their original roof construction with later kits, have no idea which version of roof construction the "dome" car used, or if it was unique as was the observation sections.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi ,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have got a Westwood "Pennsylvania Limited" Observation kit which has 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> been started ... obviously the builder gave up when he came to the roof; 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> clerestory is present but the (roof) side parts are missing... also no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> instructions. Would appreciate any help; havent found any thing at 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> HOseeker or in my own files. In the worst case I might substitute a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> LaBelle roof but would prefer to have it completed correctly.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11078
						From: Askerberg
						Date: 7/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: new photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for the kind words.  I collect my vintage stuff because I
like the looks, and the looks are shown off best in a scene appropriate
to the equipment.  I am also trying to restore my collection to good
cosmetic shape so they look good in photographs.  It's all part of
the hobby.

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Al

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: new photos 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted by: "the_plainsman"

the_plainsman@...  
the_plainsman



                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:50 pm (PDT) 

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Al, "Some photos" indeed, those are excellent and not
only show off your vintage passenger cars well, but do justice to your
modeling and photography skills, too! I like the perspective and setting
of each scene, plus the lighting is great! W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      he rest of your modeling --- In
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
, "sottguy" <aiberg@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                      > I've posted some photos to AL-2s album in the Photos of
passenger equipment from my collection..

                                                                                                                                                                                      > 

                                                                                                                                                                                      > 

                                                                                                                                                                                      > Al
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11079
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 7/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Westwood instructions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Hi Gerold, Nothing here, except to say you might want to check the July, 1971 Model Railroader Trade Topics article, p.26.  As I remeber, it had a good close up of the one they built and possibly several construction hints as well. With that and some standard Westwood instructions and drawings, you could have a fairly good idea of how to proceed if no one can dig up a copy.  As I recall, Westwood changed their original roof construction with later kits, have no idea which version of roof construction the "dome" car used, or if it was unique as was the observation sections.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have both the July 71 Issue and the CP dome car , however this was a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
rather simple model compared to the full size cars they offered. I also 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
remember I read long ago that there was a roof construction with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
individual boards , like when building a boat from individual planks... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
however the model I have got now has a thin plastik clerestory and a few 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
other plastic components left, this also would indicate a change in roof 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
construction.  I will take a picture of the parts I have got tomorrow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- Have just inspected the B&O "Royal Blue" cars I have ...Surprise! ... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
they seem to have the same plastic roof!  I thought this to be wood as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
long as I have them.... However I still dont know how it was fabricated, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
wonder if the side parts were somhow formed from flat sheet or were  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
supplied ready to install.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11080
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck, Steve,  Sometimes these old cardboard sides tend to yellow a bit with age.  My Pluto Water sides are still white (I guess it partially depends on where they're stored), and they're cataloged as white (with red, black and blue logo, numbering and lettering).  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks Steve, updated file.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Of Stephen Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 8:25 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Comet Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Just looked, the Pluto Water is a pale yellow, not white.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- On Tue, 7/7/09, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Comet Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2009, 6:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> OK loaded to the group site.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogroups. com] On
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 7:56 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Comet Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Chuck, In checking back through the archives, I see discussions started
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> on Comet just about two years ago, and really churned out a lot of messaging
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> early last year, but I can't find any such listing on Comet as I thought I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> may have posted. Alright, here's the listing for Comet Models:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Refrigerator Car:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> R-1 Pluto Water 4907 * R-2 Baby Ruth 6201 * R-3 Hormel Foods 803 * R-4 MDT
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (NYC) 20683 * R-5 Green Bay & Western 9353 * R-6 ART 21594 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Automobile Box Cars: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> R-7 MKT 67001 * R-8 Wabash 47705 * R-9 GTW 583699 * R-10 T&P 61525 * R-11 MP
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 79449 * R-12 C&EI 1277
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Flat Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> R-13 L&N 24560 * R-14 C&NW 42591 * R-15 MILW 63613
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> As we've found out in previous discussions, at least one of these car side
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> numbers (GB&W 9353) was also used by another manufacturer (Red Ball) at the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> time, so care must be taken so as not to confuse them. Not having the cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> in front of me, I can only guess as to the colors as I picture them, but
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> would need to really check them out if you want to use verified colors. For
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> general information only at this time, R-1 White, R-2 Red, R-3 Yellow, R-4
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> White R-5 Grey, R-6 Yellow, R-7 Yellow -- all the rest, I believe are Box
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Car Red. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Later, Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11081
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 7/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Comet Freight Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Good point Ray, file updated.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 5:33
PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Comet
Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck, Steve, Sometimes these old cardboard sides tend
to yellow a bit with age. My Pluto Water sides are still white (I guess it
partially depends on where they're stored), and they're cataloged as white
(with red, black and blue logo, numbering and lettering). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11082
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 7/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Westwood instructions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have those instructions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I believe I have a Pennsy and a Sunset car as well as one of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Centennial kits
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It will take me a couple of days before I can make the scans.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Jul 12, 2009, at 3:31 PM, Gerold Eckl wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Hi Gerold, Nothing here, except to say you might want to check the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> July, 1971 Model Railroader Trade Topics article, p.26.  As I  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> remeber, it had a good close up of the one they built and possibly  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> several construction hints as well. With that and some standard  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Westwood instructions and drawings, you could have a fairly good  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> idea of how to proceed if no one can dig up a copy.  As I recall,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Westwood changed their original roof construction with later kits,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> have no idea which version of roof construction the "dome" car  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> used, or if it was unique as was the observation sections.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have both the July 71 Issue and the CP dome car , however this was a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> rather simple model compared to the full size cars they offered. I  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> also
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> remember I read long ago that there was a roof construction with
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> individual boards , like when building a boat from individual  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> planks...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> however the model I have got now has a thin plastik clerestory and a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> few
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> other plastic components left, this also would indicate a change in  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> roof
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> construction.  I will take a picture of the parts I have got tomorrow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -- Have just inspected the B&O "Royal Blue" cars I  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have ...Surprise! ... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> they seem to have the same plastic roof!  I thought this to be wood as
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> long as I have them.... However I still dont know how it was  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> fabricated,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> wonder if the side parts were somhow formed from flat sheet or were
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> supplied ready to install.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gerold 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11083
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 7/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Westwood instructions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > I have those instructions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I believe I have a Pennsy and a Sunset car as well as one of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Centennial kits
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It will take me a couple of days before I can make the scans.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Mike,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
great!  I did some investigations in the wee hours ... found another 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
unbuilt Royal Blue Kit with instructions ... still dont understand , 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
either there are parts missing from this kit too or its different to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Pennsy kit ??? I will scan this instructions later today ... many 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
scetches but i cant identify the parts shown in them. Also will
                                                                                                                                                                                      
carefully disassemble one of the built up Royal Blue cars . BTW, arent 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the Pennsylvania limited and the Sunset cars basically the same ?  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
think I read that the cars were built to the same design , or does 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
memory fool me?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Took another close look on the Pennsy observation.... found traces that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
it had already been completed but the roof either accidentally or 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
intentionally ripped apart...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I look forward to see your instructions ...maybe they will resolve the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
puzzle.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11084
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 7/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Westwood instructions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Have scanned the instructions from the Royal Blue coach.... not easy to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
understand - not being a native English speaker doesnt help either. Any 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
helpful comments would be appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Have also disassembled the Royal Blue RPO - which came from another 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
source, so may be from a different production era - its has plastic roof 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
ribs but the roof surface is made up from wood siding bent and filed to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
shape. Will send pictures by seperate message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Any way, the Pennsy car IS different as the remaining clerestory is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
plastic ( polystyrene? ) only.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11085
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 7/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Westwood instructions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Here are the pictures of the actual car.... on this one , the roof  ends 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
, roof ribs and clerestory window strip are made from plastic parts 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
(black) - surface between is wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Now I opened - reluctantly - the parts bag of the unbuilt coach kit.... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
no roof ends present, although they are shown in the accompanying 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
drawings.... frustrating, I already considered to duplicate them in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
resin.... here I am, with two kits both missing the same essential 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
components...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11086
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 7/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Another interesting find!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Guys, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I just aquired something I want to share.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      An O Scale brass 4-6-6-4 Western Maryland Class M2 Challenger
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I know... it is O scale, butI still thought it would be nice to share it. It really is quite an amazing piece. It needs a little work to get back into shape, but I think it will be well worth the effort. I have no idea as to its origin.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Maybe some of you guys might. It came from New Jersey. I look forward to any discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11087
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Sean, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
That is quite a beast to trust on a glass topped table!  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I am not familiar with any of the O scalers here in NJ and their work, but you might try Robert Fischer, the brass dealer, very knowledgeable of both O and HO scale model builders, proprietor of the former Gingerbread Stop in Warren, NJ.  He is now located in Florida and has published a few excellent railway books. Here is his webpage and there is an email link from that page:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.gingerb.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Another good source would be the New York Society of Model Engineers, one of the O scalers their might know something, here is their email address: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
NYSME1@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I just aquired something I want to share.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> An O Scale brass 4-6-6-4 Western Maryland Class M2 Challenger
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I know... it is O scale, butI still thought it would be nice to share
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> it. It really is quite an amazing piece. It needs a little work to get
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> back into shape, but I think it will be well worth the effort. I have no
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> idea as to its origin.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Maybe some of you guys might. It came from New Jersey. I look forward to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> any discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> <http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.editAlbumPhot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> o&albumID=1244310&imageID=14031764>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> <http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.editAlbumPhot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> o&albumID=1244310&imageID=14031784>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> <http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.editAlbumPhot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> o&albumID=1244310&imageID=14031789>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> <http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.editAlbumPhot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> o&albumID=1244310&imageID=14031776>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> <http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.editAlbumPhot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> o&albumID=1244310&imageID=14031799>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11088
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 7/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi W. Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for the message, I was beginning to think I was a ghost here...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I did as you suggested and sent him an email. This piece is just getting jucier and jucier.. you see...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      It is a (true) O scale model of the Western Maryland M-2 Challenger.. It arrived last night and by the time I looked at it, it was dusk. I brought it to work this morning and layed it out on the drafting table and by golly if it is not mad mostly of a plated brass??.. has to be scratch built as far as I can tell. Almost every piece is made from sheet metal and or turned brass.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I just this evening found out a new twist.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Curious as to it's history, I called the seller.. He have me info that I did not see in the listing. He currently works for Saks in Manhattan as a technician. He was leaving work one day and he saw a box on top of a pile of stuff next to the freight elevator. It was labeled "Trains". So he asked to be sure if it was being thrown out and it was.. He said they were clearing out a storage room in the Saks main office building. He said he thought it might been part of one of their old window displays...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Now this has got my curiosity going, but I have no idea how to research it... The internet has revealed nothing so far.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I would love to know who made it. I am thinking it would have originated some time in the 40's to 50's based on the motor used. It would have been someone associated with Saks and quite possibly worked in the office, or this could have been a commissioned piece that was used for a display. If it turns out to be a silver plating, than that might make sence too.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I would sure love to know where to start.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Wahe a great mantle piece! but... Not in my house!.     said my wife...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 11:09:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another interesting find!

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Sean, 

                                                                                                                                                                                      That is quite a beast to trust on a glass topped table! 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I am not familiar with any of the O scalers here in NJ and their work, but you might try Robert Fischer, the brass dealer, very knowledgeable of both O and HO scale model builders, proprietor of the former Gingerbread Stop in Warren, NJ. He is now located in Florida and has published a few excellent railway books. Here is his webpage and there is an email link from that page:

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.gingerb. com/

                                                                                                                                                                                      Another good source would be the New York Society of Model Engineers, one of the O scalers their might know something, here is their email address: 

                                                                                                                                                                                      NYSME1@yahoo. com

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I just aquired something I want to share.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > An O Scale brass 4-6-6-4 Western Maryland Class M2 Challenger
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I know... it is O scale, butI still thought it would be nice to share
                                                                                                                                                                                      > it. It really is quite an amazing piece. It needs a little work to get
                                                                                                                                                                                      > back into shape, but I think it will be well worth the effort. I have no
                                                                                                                                                                                      > idea as to its origin.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Maybe some of you guys might. It came from New Jersey. I look forward to
                                                                                                                                                                                      > any discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      > o&albumID=1244310&
 
                                                                                                                                                                                       imageID=14031764 >
                                                                                                                                                                                       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      > o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031784 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      > o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031789 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      > o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031776 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > <
                                                                                                                                                                                       target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                       > o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031799 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11089
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 7/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       I tried Mr. Fischer at the.gingerb@... and it was returned undeliverable.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I did try your second suggestion which I did not see until this morning.. I was so excited to see your first suggestion, I did not stick around long enough to read the rest of your email... sorry.. The second one seems to have been successfully sent, let us see what happens now. They have a facebook fan page, which I joined and posted the question there too.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks so much for the start!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11090
						From: Garry Spear
						Date: 7/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From the description it might be a Lobaugh Engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I can not seem to access the pictures.  The URL is broken by gmail and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I'm not able to reconnect it.  I do not have a "myspace" account and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
get stopped by the sign-in.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Garry Spear
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 11:09 PM, the_plainsman<the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> That is quite a beast to trust on a glass topped table!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I am not familiar with any of the O scalers here in NJ and their work, but
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> you might try Robert Fischer, the brass dealer, very knowledgeable of both O
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and HO scale model builders, proprietor of the former Gingerbread Stop in
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Warren, NJ. He is now located in Florida and has published a few excellent
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> railway books. Here is his webpage and there is an email link from that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> page:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.gingerb.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Another good source would be the New York Society of Model Engineers, one of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the O scalers their might know something, here is their email address:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> NYSME1@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Hi Guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I just aquired something I want to share.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> An O Scale brass 4-6-6-4 Western Maryland Class M2 Challenger
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I know... it is O scale, butI still thought it would be nice to share
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> it. It really is quite an amazing piece. It needs a little work to get
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> back into shape, but I think it will be well worth the effort. I have no
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> idea as to its origin.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Maybe some of you guys might. It came from New Jersey. I look forward to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> any discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> <http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.editAlbumPhot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> o&albumID=1244310&imageID=14031764>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> <http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.editAlbumPhot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> o&albumID=1244310&imageID=14031784>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> <http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.editAlbumPhot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> o&albumID=1244310&imageID=14031789>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> <http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.editAlbumPhot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> o&albumID=1244310&imageID=14031776>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> <http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.editAlbumPhot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> o&albumID=1244310&imageID=14031799>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11091
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 7/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks Gary!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have to go out in the field for work, but I was able to send these befor I do..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I looked up Mr. Lobaugh... possible...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Garry Spear <garrettspear@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:20:17 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Another interesting find!

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      From the description it might be a Lobaugh Engine.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I can not seem to access the pictures. The URL is broken by gmail and
                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm not able to reconnect it. I do not have a "myspace" account and
                                                                                                                                                                                      get stopped by the sign-in.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Garry Spear

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 11:09 PM, the_plainsman<the_plainsman@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > That is quite a beast to trust on a glass topped table!
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I am not familiar with any of the O scalers here in NJ and their work, but
                                                                                                                                                                                      > you might try Robert Fischer, the brass dealer, very knowledgeable of both O
                                                                                                                                                                                      > and HO scale model builders, proprietor of the former Gingerbread Stop in
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Warren, NJ. He is now located in Florida and has published a few excellent
                                                                                                                                                                                      > railway books. Here is his webpage and there is an
 email link from that
                                                                                                                                                                                      > page:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://www.gingerb. com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Another good source would be the New York Society of Model Engineers, one of
                                                                                                                                                                                      > the O scalers their might know something, here is their email address:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > NYSME1@yahoo. com
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Hi Guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> I just aquired something I want to share.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> An O Scale brass 4-6-6-4 Western Maryland Class M2 Challenger
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> I know... it is O scale, butI still thought it
 would be nice to share
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> it. It really is quite an amazing piece. It needs a little work to get
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> back into shape, but I think it will be well worth the effort. I have no
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> idea as to its origin.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Maybe some of you guys might. It came from New Jersey. I look forward to
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> any discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031764 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031784
 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031789 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031776 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031799 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 

                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11092
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 7/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 
 
 
 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      This group would be of help to you.
Several members have been around awhile and would likely recognize the model.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OSCALEMODELERS/
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Nice find BTW.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Editor, Green Bay &
Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Green Bay & Western
Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11093
						From: Graeme
						Date: 7/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Another interesting find! [7 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      In message <333075.47476.qm@...>, Sean Naylor 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
<a69mustang4me@...> writes
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >[Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>7 of 7 Photo(s)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>CHALLENGER 1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>CHALLENGER 1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>CHALLENGER 2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>CHALLENGER 2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>CHALLENGER 3.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>CHALLENGER 3.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>CHALLENGER 4.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>CHALLENGER 4.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>CHALLENGER 5.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>CHALLENGER 5.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>CHALLENGER 6.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>CHALLENGER 6.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>CHALLENGER 7.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>CHALLENGER 7.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      My first thought was also Rollin Lobaugh, although there were quite a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
few US importers and builders of Far Eastern brass in the years before 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and after WWII.  O Scale News lists several Lobaugh 4-6-6-4 locos, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
not Western Maryland - but I do not know US locos well enough to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
identify one specific 4-6-6-4.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Other possibilities are Max Gray, and Central Locomotive Works.  I tend 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to think Lobaugh is most likely.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Graeme, Scotland
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11094
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 7/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      One O Scale expert you might try is J.W. "Woody" Matthews--writes a column 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
in  "O Scale News--48/ft"--has been doing some material on Lobaugh models. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Another would be Rod Miller--in Palo Alto CA--Rod took over the late Jerry 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
White's O Scale Custom business.  There's another fellow whose name escapes 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
me now--doing a series in OSN-48/ft on building a brass loco--might also 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
know.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Graeme" <groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 1:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Another interesting find!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> In message <333075.47476.qm@...>, Sean Naylor
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> <a69mustang4me@...> writes
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>[Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>7 of 7 Photo(s)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>CHALLENGER 1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>CHALLENGER 1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>CHALLENGER 2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>CHALLENGER 2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>CHALLENGER 3.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>CHALLENGER 3.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>CHALLENGER 4.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>CHALLENGER 4.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>CHALLENGER 5.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>CHALLENGER 5.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>CHALLENGER 6.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>CHALLENGER 6.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>CHALLENGER 7.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>CHALLENGER 7.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> My first thought was also Rollin Lobaugh, although there were quite a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> few US importers and builders of Far Eastern brass in the years before
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and after WWII.  O Scale News lists several Lobaugh 4-6-6-4 locos, but
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> not Western Maryland - but I do not know US locos well enough to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> identify one specific 4-6-6-4.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Other possibilities are Max Gray, and Central Locomotive Works.  I tend
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to think Lobaugh is most likely.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Graeme, Scotland
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.387 / Virus Database: 270.13.15/2239 - Release Date: 07/15/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11095
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 7/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Based on the photos, it appears to have parts from a Reading Pacific as well as drivers from Lobaugh. I think your original assessment is correct -- that it is parts/scratchbuilt from the 40s/50s. The advice on checking with the O Scale Group is probably the best because they, like us, have lots of catalogs and background info. I have some O scale reference material because it came with HO stuff, but not enough to know for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The firebox and the 'double hump' of the boiler (which shows very clearly in the nearly front-on view) indicates that two boiler castings may have been joined. The firebox is from an Anthracite-burner of some kind and the only one I have seen was a Reading Pacific kit in photos from my old (1940s) model railroaders. The cylinders are also nice looking castings (or appear that way) so it appears to be a superb kitbash/scratchbuilt project.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nice find!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks Gary!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have to go out in the field for work, but I was able to send these befor I do..
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I looked up Mr. Lobaugh... possible...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Garry Spear <garrettspear@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:20:17 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Another interesting find!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From the description it might be a Lobaugh Engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I can not seem to access the pictures. The URL is broken by gmail and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I'm not able to reconnect it. I do not have a "myspace" account and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> get stopped by the sign-in.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Garry Spear
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 11:09 PM, the_plainsman<the_plainsman@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > That is quite a beast to trust on a glass topped table!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I am not familiar with any of the O scalers here in NJ and their work, but
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > you might try Robert Fischer, the brass dealer, very knowledgeable of both O
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > and HO scale model builders, proprietor of the former Gingerbread Stop in
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Warren, NJ. He is now located in Florida and has published a few excellent
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > railway books. Here is his webpage and there is an email link from that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > page:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > http://www.gingerb. com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Another good source would be the New York Society of Model Engineers, one of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > the O scalers their might know something, here is their email address:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > NYSME1@yahoo. com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Hi Guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> I just aquired something I want to share.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> An O Scale brass 4-6-6-4 Western Maryland Class M2 Challenger
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> I know... it is O scale, butI still thought it would be nice to share
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> it. It really is quite an amazing piece. It needs a little work to get
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> back into shape, but I think it will be well worth the effort. I have no
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> idea as to its origin.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Maybe some of you guys might. It came from New Jersey. I look forward to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> any discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031764 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031784 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031789 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031776 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031799 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11096
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 7/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Matt,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I ahve taken the advice of posting on the O scale sites. Unfortunately they are currently blacked-out for maintenance until after the 16th and I hav'n't heard anything yet. I have also sent numerouse emails (all the same) to many o scale publishers, dealers, builders, and the like, including the NMRA. I can be quite motivated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      haven't heard anything back yet from anyone..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      As for the loco.. thanks for the input..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I must note.. There are very few castings on this loco. the smoke stack is the only one I know for sure which is, is the smoke stacks.. I think. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Most things look to be machined or hand tooled. The boiler is all pretty thick sheet stock. The steam chests are also sheet stock. The entier surface of the boiler, chests, cab and tender appear to be plated as well. looks like a low grade silver of sorts.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      As I put it to a friend of mine today. This is not someones first attempt.. Someone who built many before this one.. did this one. But who... and whay was it in a storage room of Saks main office building NY?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks, Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 11:57:02 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Another interesting find!

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Based on the photos, it appears to have parts from a Reading Pacific as well as drivers from Lobaugh. I think your original assessment is correct -- that it is parts/scratchbuilt from the 40s/50s. The advice on checking with the O Scale Group is probably the best because they, like us, have lots of catalogs and background info. I have some O scale reference material because it came with HO stuff, but not enough to know for sure.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The firebox and the 'double hump' of the boiler (which shows very clearly in the nearly front-on view) indicates that two boiler castings may have been joined. The firebox is from an Anthracite-burner of some kind and the only one I have seen was a Reading Pacific kit in photos from my old (1940s) model railroaders. The cylinders are also nice looking castings (or appear that way) so it appears to be a superb kitbash/scratchbuil t project.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Nice find!

                                                                                                                                                                                      Matt

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks Gary!
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I have to go out in the field for work, but I was able to send these befor I do..
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I looked up Mr. Lobaugh... possible...
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: Garry Spear <garrettspear@ ...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:20:17 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Another interesting find!
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From the description it might be a Lobaugh Engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I can not seem to
 
                                                                                                                                                                                       access the pictures. The URL is broken by gmail and
                                                                                                                                                                                       > I'm not able to reconnect it. I do not have a "myspace" account and
                                                                                                                                                                                      > get stopped by the sign-in.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Garry Spear
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 11:09 PM, the_plainsman< the_plainsman@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hi Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > That is quite a beast to trust on a glass topped table!
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I am not familiar with any of the O scalers here in NJ and their work, but
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > you might try Robert Fischer, the brass dealer, very knowledgeable of both O
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > and HO scale model builders, proprietor of the former Gingerbread Stop in
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Warren, NJ. He is now located in Florida and has published a few excellent
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > railway books. Here is his webpage and there is an email link from that
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > page:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
 > http://www.gingerb. com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Another good source would be the New York Society of Model Engineers, one of
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the O scalers their might know something, here is their email address:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > NYSME1@yahoo. com
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> Hi Guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> I just aquired something I want to share.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> An O Scale brass 4-6-6-4 Western Maryland Class M2 Challenger
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> I know... it is O scale, butI still thought it would be nice to share
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> it. It really is quite an amazing piece. It needs a little work to get
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> back into shape, but I think it will be well worth the effort. I have
 
                                                                                                                                                                                       no
                                                                                                                                                                                       > >> idea as to its origin.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> Maybe some of you guys might. It came from New Jersey. I look forward to
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> any discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031764 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031784 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031789 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
 >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031776 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> <http://viewmorepics .myspace. com/index. cfm?fuseaction= user.editAlbumPh ot\
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> o&albumID=1244310& imageID=14031799 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11097
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 7/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry guys.. I make alot of tyops when I am tired...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11098
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 7/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      reading them while tired I don't notice 
them   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 9:26 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Another 
  interesting find!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry guys.. I make alot of tyops when I am tired...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.387 / Virus Database: 270.13.16/2240 - Release 
  Date: 07/15/09 17:58:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11099
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 7/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
While we may never know the history of the loco I am just glad that someone saved it and it ended up in your hands. Thanks for sharing the photos and giving us all the opportunity to see it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I was a kid in the 50s and my father took me to a lot of train layouts (he wasn't a modeler but liked steam) and it was seeing all that equipment (now "vintage HO and O") that led to my interest in collecting old HO starting about 15 years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Again, glad this loco came to you! Most people, even model railroaders, wouldn't know that they had something rare.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Matt,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I ahve taken the advice of posting on the O scale sites. Unfortunately they are currently blacked-out for maintenance until after the 16th and I hav'n't heard anything yet. I have also sent numerouse emails (all the same) to many o scale publishers, dealers, builders, and the like, including the NMRA. I can be quite motivated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> haven't heard anything back yet from anyone..
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> As for the loco.. thanks for the input..
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I must note.. There are very few castings on this loco. the smoke stack is the only one I know for sure which is, is the smoke stacks.. I think. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Most things look to be machined or hand tooled. The boiler is all pretty thick sheet stock. The steam chests are also sheet stock. The entier surface of the boiler, chests, cab and tender appear to be plated as well. looks like a low grade silver of sorts.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> As I put it to a friend of mine today. This is not someones first attempt.. Someone who built many before this one.. did this one. But who... and whay was it in a storage room of Saks main office building NY?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks, Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11100
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 7/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Huys,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have uploaded photos to an abum:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      "Brass 4-6-6-4 WM Class M2 Challenger"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      for anyone who has not been able to see them. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks in advance for any comments or information!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11101
						From: Graeme
						Date: 7/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      In message <29338.51797.qm@...>, Sean Naylor 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
<a69mustang4me@...> writes
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >"Brass 4-6-6-4 WM Class M2 Challenger"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean, I have uploaded a few catalog and other Lobaugh pictures, which 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
may be of interest.  These are images from eBay, so some are not very 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
large.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.binnsroad.co.uk/railways/lobaugh/index.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Graeme, Scotland
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11102
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 7/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Another interesting find!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks so much Graeme,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I just looked briefly at one of them. I have been looking for anything I could used as a reference.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks again.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Graeme <groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 8:43:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Another interesting find!

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In message <29338.51797. qm@web31704. mail.mud. yahoo.com>, Sean Naylor 
                                                                                                                                                                                      <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> writes

                                                                                                                                                                                       >"Brass 4-6-6-4 WM Class M2 Challenger"

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean, I have uploaded a few catalog and other Lobaugh pictures, which 
                                                                                                                                                                                      may be of interest. These are images from eBay, so some are not very 
                                                                                                                                                                                      large.

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.binnsroad.co.uk/railways/lobaugh/index.html

                                                                                                                                                                                      -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Graeme, Scotland

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11103
						From: Jay Wanczyk
						Date: 7/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: International CNJ Caboose
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I just acquired this International CNJ (Central RR of New Jersey) Caboose via eBay.  These models were factory assembled and painted, constructed of separate thin-wall die cast metal sides and ends, sheet metal roofs with individually applied ribs, wood floor (Grooved on the underside similar to Red Ball), with die-cast underframe, turned brass stack and cupola marker. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The model, including the end ladders being slightly canted inward above the belt railing is correct as to CNJ practice, although the marker lamps centered on the cupola were later removed and the smoke jack modified.  Curiously, the smoke-jack turning is very long and finished with a sharp point so it could be stuck into the soft wood floor for a solid mount. (It needs to be glued, LOL!) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Besides having its original box, my model has the rice paper "JAPAN" label on the underside, confirming it was factory painted.  An excerpt from page 19 of the 1956 International Catalog, on HOSeeker.org is attached for reference. (For those that have trouble seeing the attachments here, I have also included them in Plainsman's Picks photo album, the last entry.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Many manufacturers did not do first hand research for their models and often used the Model Railroader Cyclopedia as their source. It seems that International was no exception, so I checked and located  the CNJ caboose plans in the 1942 edition that my dad had, and it is listed as being in other editions as well.  Plans originally appeared in the August 1939 issue of MR, drawn by Frank Taylor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      To my knowledge, this is the only accurate factory assembled and painted model of a CNJ wood caboose in HO, although printed card side kits were offered by Lehigh in the late 1940's, craftsman style kits were available from Robert Fischer's Gingerbread Stop shop circa 1980 and today there are laser-cut kits from Bethlehem Car Works.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      It is great to find a vintage model accurate to one of the prototype roads I mode!  Some of these cabooses operated into the 1970's, although most received plywood sheeting over the sides.  All it needs is the proper Miss Liberty herald and car number, lettering.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11104
						From: Jim Waterman
						Date: 7/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: International CNJ Caboose
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      We had a thousand of those cars when my father 
bought out the remains of IHC in 1963. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I think he sold them new for about $1 each, maybe 
less. Probably  RMC and MR ads in 63 and 64 for them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a couple of them still. Not sure if they 
came with trucks..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      At the time they seemed like throw aways, I think I 
painted a couple in home roads. Will have to go through the junk boxes and see 
what I can find.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Will make up a really nice car if you work on the 
end railings and the fit of the roof and cupola, and add a nicer pair of 
trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11105
						From: solly_46
						Date: 7/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Trix H0 Locomotive Wheel Cleaning Brush
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      What is the trick for using this wheel cleaner. Does not work that great for me. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Randy
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11106
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: International CNJ & UP Cabooses
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I was going to mention that later run of models of the same CNJ and UP prototype cabooses that International Models also imported, but cut those sentences out as my post was getting too involved!  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The models you mentioned and have, were likely constructed by a different Japanese builder and I believe were the ones reviewed and pictured in the RMC Test Track review in the February, 1960 issue.  As I remember them, that later run was constructed entirely of comparatively thin sheet metal (brass?), not of diecast metal, wood and sheet as the 1956 run.  But it has been a long time since I held any of that later run.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I think saw them at Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey as a teen and as I recall, some of the soldering jobs and the paint on that later run did require remedial work that you also mentioned. The ones I saw had no trucks or boxes either.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
And your recall of your dad's price for them seems right according to the copy of either your dad's catalog or extra catalog sheets of his that I have that lists them.  I will dig the paper out later and see if I can add anything else about that later run.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Waterman" <Watermaj@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> We had a thousand of those cars when my father bought out the remains of IHC in 1963. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I think he sold them new for about $1 each, maybe less. Probably  RMC and MR ads in 63 and 64 for them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have a couple of them still. Not sure if they came with trucks..
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> At the time they seemed like throw aways, I think I painted a couple in home roads. Will have to go through the junk boxes and see what I can find.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Will make up a really nice car if you work on the end railings and the fit of the roof and cupola, and add a nicer pair of trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11107
						From: Mike Sloane
						Date: 7/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Trix H0 Locomotive Wheel Cleaning Brush
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have one and have not been overwhelmed with its performance. I think 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
it would work better if the "bristles" were a little longer.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
solly_46 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> What is the trick for using this wheel cleaner. Does not work that great 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Randy
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11108
						From: Jim Waterman
						Date: 7/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: International CNJ & UP Cabooses
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Actually, the ones I have are made with a sheet 
metal roof, but the sides are thin castings, not all that square, but can be 
made up nicely with a little work.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      We got them in small boxes with what looked like 
shredded cellophane, then wrapped in thin cardboard, they were marked for the 
caboose type, either CNJ or UP.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Fun to hear you still have some of his catalogs. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11109
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 7/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: MR Magazines.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm not sure of where I should be asking this--I am 
one issue away from a complete set of Model Railroader magazines.  I am 
looking for a January 1938 issue.  I also have a bunch of duplicates of the 
older  "small format" issues to sell or hopefully trade for the one I need. 
Contact me  off-list         
glenn476@...   if you 
have anything.   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11110
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 7/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: [model-railroad-hobbyist] Get the best in free model railroading inf
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      MRH - THE BEST FREE MODEL RAILROADING INFO ON THE WEB!
                                                                                                                                                                                      (click here if you can't read this email)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Download the latest free issue of MODEL RAILROAD HOBBYIST magazine and you’ll get:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
Click to download and read Servos for Model Railroading article
Servos for Model Railroading - Model railroader and servo expert Duncan McRee demonstrates how to use inexpensive high-tech servos to operate turnouts and move semaphore signal arms in this in-depth feature article. (Any Scale) - Download now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Click to download and read Modeling Telephone Poles article
Modeling Telephone Poles - Expert modeler Bob Grech presents his step-by-step techniques for making some very realistic telephone poles. (HO) - Download now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Click to download and read track cleaning car article
Deluxe Track Cleaning Slider Car - The masonite slider track cleaning car idea has been around for decades – modeler Mike Ruby shows how to take that basic idea and “put it on steroids”. (Any Scale) - Download now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Click to download and read the Kato covered hopper article
Upgrading the Kato Covered Hopper - Take your basic Kato covered hopper and upgrade it with Mont’s prototype detailing and weathering techniques to transform it into a more accurate model of the real thing. (HO) - Download now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Click to download and read Alcos in the Alcove track planning article
Alcos in the Alcove - Byron Henderson starts with a simple interest in Alco locos and builds it out into a great concept for a switching layout in a small space. (HO) - Download now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Click to download and read Sergent couplers article
FIRST LOOK: Sergent Couplers - Jeff Shultz and Jason Baakko take an in-depth look at these exact scale HO couplers that actually operate! (HO) - Download now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Click to download and read Jack Burgess layout interview article
Bonus - Jack Burgess Yosemite Valley RR - Our layouts editor visits Jack Burgess’ Yosemite Valley Railroad for some exciting new updates on this ultra-accurate layout modeling August 1939. (HO) - Download now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Click to download and read the latest hobby news!
Bonus - Latest Model Railroading Product and Event News - July Model Railroad Hobbyist newsletter – read and view the latest hobby scuttlebutt! (Any scale) - Download now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Click to download and read the Lite and Narrow column
COLUMN - THE LITE AND NARROW: Plausible freight car design - Lew Matt delves into the process of freelance freight car by Lew Matt design, and includes some generic car drawings to use as a basis for making up your own believable narrow gage or shortline freight cars. - Download now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Click to download and read the Up the Creek column
COLUMN - UP THE CREEK: Benchwork hints - Charlie Comstock goes below the ground level
                                                                                                                                                                                      on his Bear Creek layout to detail some of his benchwork techniques, which includes a video of his benchwork design done in 3rd PlanIt. - Download now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Click to download and read the Comme-N-tary column
COLUMN - COMME-N-TARY: Creating a realistic roster - John Drye discusses the process of building a prototypically accurate roster for his mid-50s era N scale Pennsylvania Railroad. The mix of road names he needs may surprise you! - Download now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Click to download and read the Parallel Lines column
COLUMN - PARALLEL LINES: How I finish turnouts - Trackwork columnist Tim Warris illustrates how he ballasts, paints and weathers a turnout to look more like real trackwork. Learn great tips and hints from a trackwork master! - Download now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Click to download and read the New Media Modeler column
COLUMN - THE NEW MEDIA: Goodbye newbie status - When someone told our new media columnist Ryan Anderson he was no longer a hobby newbie, this lead Ryan to search the web for guidelines on model railroading skill levels – his findings may surprise you! - Download now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Click to download and read the Publisher's editorial
EDITORIAL - PUBLISHERS MUSINGS: Hobby publication erosion - Since the 1980s the circulation of model railroading magazines has been dropping. Our publisher comments on what that may tell us about the future of the hobby. - Download now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Click to download and read the Reverse Running editorial
EDITORIAL - REVERSE RUNNING: The death of scratchbuilding - Many old-timers in the hobby are bemoaning how the ready-to-run trend is killing the need for hobby craftsmanship. Joe Fugate wonders: is scratchbuilding is really dead? - Download now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Get more great model railroading how-to's in our back issues: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
Click to download and read MRH Issue 1


                                                                                                                                                                                      Story behind the Bear Creek & South Jackson • N-Scale decoder installs • Powerful new curve radius insights for any scale • Track Planning on computer using 3rd PlanIt • Book: By the EL • The On30 narrow gage rage • Model railroading benchwork serendipities • Modeling prototype hoppers • The quest for fine N-scale track • Examining S curves • Enjoying the hobby online via the internet • Down by the Shore in Hoboken track plan • Tom Millers Fn3 Little Colorado • Editorial: It moves - Introducing Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine • Editorial: Chainsaw railroads
                                                                                                                                                                                      

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Click to download and read MRH Issue 2


                                                                                                                                                                                      Superdetail a Contrail resin kit caboose • Track Planning using 3rd PlanIt, part 2 • Panel-side hopper history • Do-it-yourself manual turnout controls • Getting started in DCC • Creative On30 model engineering • Lift hatch and swing gate construction how-to • Rolling stock detailing and weathering tricks • Planning a layout, N scale style • Building a stub turnout • Online resources: Scotty Mason show, Housatonic Web site, Clover House • Best of the West track plan • April 2009 Model Railroading News and Events • Editorial: Is the hobby dying? • Editorial: Model Railroading and the economy
                                                                                                                                                                                      

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                                                                                                                                                                                      THE MODEL RAILROAD HOBBYIST TEAM
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11111
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: wanted
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I 
am looking to buy a Lindberg HO  SW-1 / SW 600  FACTORY 
painted  Illinois Central Switcher. Box does not matter. If you have one or 
know of one contact me off site at   jimheck@...  with 
price.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11112
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: wanted
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim,  Don't frequently see those in any road name, but will keep an eye out.  Hopefuly going to the large Hamburg, PA show this Sunday.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>             I am looking to buy a Lindberg HO  SW-1 / SW 600  FACTORY painted  Illinois Central Switcher. Box does not matter. If you have one or know of one contact me off site at   jimheck@...  with price.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11113
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: wanted
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              If you 
go to the Hamburg train show you are only 45 minutes from where I live further 
north on Route 61, last 4 miles Rte 924. Welcome if time 
available.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 9:02 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: wanted
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim, Don't frequently see those in any road name, but will keep an eye 
  out. Hopefuly going to the large Hamburg, PA show this Sunday. W Jay 
  W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I am looking to 
  buy a Lindberg HO SW-1 / SW 600 FACTORY painted Illinois Central Switcher. Box 
  does not matter. If you have one or know of one contact me off site at 
  jimheck@... with price.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11114
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Lindberg SW engines
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Since the Lindberg line of HO 
falls within the years of items I collect I have tried to get one of each 
roadname of their engines. Although there was a prototype production model 
shown of a U-25b it never came out. The only engine they was ever sold 
was the SW-1 (or SW-600).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          From everything I had seen in 
adds,catalogs for this Lindberg engine it came in roadnames for the B&O, 
C&NW and Santa Fe. I have one of each of these engines, one undecorated 
engine in box plus the Lindberg parts box that contained enough parts to 
complete 3 engines. It had factory painted bodies, in that box, for each of 
the 3 road names I cited above. (Pictures of the 4 engines or the entire 
parts box provided if wanted)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Some where along the line I had 
seen an ad and heard there was one labeled for the Pennsylvania but have never 
found a factory painted one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           The other day while 
reading a web site about red box TYCO items I also came across a site with info 
about Lindberg HO among others. There was a picture of a Lindberg SW-1 factory 
painted for the Illinois Central with the box. The writing on the end of the box 
had a number but couldn't make it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Was this a picture of an item 
that never was sold like the above U-25b. If it was sold to the public there 
wasn't much advertisement that I ever saw. If they were sold to the public I 
would like to find one for my collection.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11115
						From: anypaddler
						Date: 7/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Lindberg SW engines
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jim H. wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The only engine they was ever sold was the SW-1 (or SW-600).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      It's an SW-1; the easy spotting features are the half-height radiator grill on the front and the sand box below it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
EMD's later SW-600 shared the same basic carbody as the rest of the EMD switcher line starting in 1949 with the 1200-hp SW-7.  The SW-1 was replaced by the SW600 in 1954.  And while SW originally meant Six hundred horsepower with a Welded frame, the SW-7 was the first model where "SW" meant SWitcher.  The designations SW-2 through SW-6 were never used, the SW-8 rated 800 hp, and the SW-9 went back up to 1200 hp.  After that, EMD went to hp-based numbering, i.e., SW-600, SW-800, etc., until replaced by the MP-series units.  The only consistent spotting feature of unrebuilt EMD switchers since the intro of the SW-7 has been a single exhaust stack for units rated 1000 hp or less, 2 stacks for units rated above 1000 hp.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11116
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: International CNJ Caboose
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jay,  Nice find!  I happen to enjoy International Model Products (IMP) and have an extensive collection of them, including 2 of these CNJ cabooses -- and one UP caboose.  Many of IMP's  cars came as kits only (in the small flat boxes), and many others were "Kustom-Bilts " (packed in these large unique "alligator finish" boxes).  I haven't gone up to the H0Seeker site, but just wanted to point out for anyone having this 1956 IMP catalog, that the attachments you've included are found on page 23 (not 19), so somebody on that site screwed up somehow.  It's not like my catalog is misprinted either, as I've somehow acquired two of them and they both have these caboose on page 23 at the bottom of a listing of other Kustom-Bilt models.  Just an incidental, but somebody may get confused, not finding it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You'll note that IMP also offered a factory painted (but unlettered, just like the CNJ model) NYC caboose, less trucks -- as is seen included with one of your attachments in the text to the right.  This was the first year this NYC model was offered as all the previous IMP catalogs I have do not show this.  I don't own this caboose though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Also made by IMP a bit later, was a C&GW (Chicago Great Western) caboose in sheet brass similar to what you remembered being offered later and were talking about with Jim Waterman.  These came factory assembled though, and were unpainted.  Advertised as part of many IMP/Takara sell sheets I have, only this sheet does not have "Takara" (only International Models, Inc.), so it's possible that this was also made for IMP by someone else.  Ray F. W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I just acquired this International CNJ (Central RR of New Jersey) Caboose via eBay.  These models were factory assembled and painted, constructed of separate thin-wall die cast metal sides and ends, sheet metal roofs with individually applied ribs, wood floor (Grooved on the underside similar to Red Ball), with die-cast underframe, turned brass stack and cupola marker. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The model, including the end ladders being slightly canted inward above the belt railing is correct as to CNJ practice, although the marker lamps centered on the cupola were later removed and the smoke jack modified.  Curiously, the smoke-jack turning is very long and finished with a sharp point so it could be stuck into the soft wood floor for a solid mount. (It needs to be glued, LOL!) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Besides having its original box, my model has the rice paper "JAPAN" label on the underside, confirming it was factory painted.  An excerpt from page 19 of the 1956 International Catalog, on HOSeeker.org is attached for reference. (For those that have trouble seeing the attachments here, I have also included them in Plainsman's Picks photo album, the last entry.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Many manufacturers did not do first hand research for their models and often used the Model Railroader Cyclopedia as their source. It seems that International was no exception, so I checked and located  the CNJ caboose plans in the 1942 edition that my dad had, and it is listed as being in other editions as well.  Plans originally appeared in the August 1939 issue of MR, drawn by Frank Taylor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To my knowledge, this is the only accurate factory assembled and painted model of a CNJ wood caboose in HO, although printed card side kits were offered by Lehigh in the late 1940's, craftsman style kits were available from Robert Fischer's Gingerbread Stop shop circa 1980 and today there are laser-cut kits from Bethlehem Car Works.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It is great to find a vintage model accurate to one of the prototype roads I mode!  Some of these cabooses operated into the 1970's, although most received plywood sheeting over the sides.  All it needs is the proper Miss Liberty herald and car number, lettering.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11117
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Lindberg SW engines
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Ralph B,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Thanks for the 
explanation. I must admit that I am not up on identifying the real thing. 
Sometimes the manufacturer of these vintage items misidentified the items 
causing confusion or they were to generic to be properly classified.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  anypaddler 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:26 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg SW 
  engines
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Jim H. wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The only engine they was ever sold was the SW-1 
  (or SW-600).

                                                                                                                                                                                      It's an SW-1; the easy spotting features are the 
  half-height radiator grill on the front and the sand box below 
  it.

                                                                                                                                                                                      EMD's later SW-600 shared the same basic carbody as the rest of the 
  EMD switcher line starting in 1949 with the 1200-hp SW-7. The SW-1 was 
  replaced by the SW600 in 1954. And while SW originally meant Six hundred 
  horsepower with a Welded frame, the SW-7 was the first model where "SW" meant 
  SWitcher. The designations SW-2 through SW-6 were never used, the SW-8 rated 
  800 hp, and the SW-9 went back up to 1200 hp. After that, EMD went to hp-based 
  numbering, i.e., SW-600, SW-800, etc., until replaced by the MP-series units. 
  The only consistent spotting feature of unrebuilt EMD switchers since the 
  intro of the SW-7 has been a single exhaust stack for units rated 1000 hp or 
  less, 2 stacks for units rated above 1000 hp.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11118
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 7/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Lindberg SW engines
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      You're right, Jim, about model makers mis-identifying these locomotives. Perhaps most famously is on the O gauge side, where Lionel, for the longest time, called their NW-2 an SW-1.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I want to say Varney did something similar, too, but really don't recall if they did.

                                                                                                                                                                                      It doesn't help that there are not many of the old GM-EMD switchers on the rails anymore either. Even when I was a kid in the early 1990s in Iowa, our local yard was switched by a Geep.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Wed, 7/22/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg SW engines
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Wednesday, July 22, 2009, 2:00 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Ralph B,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Thanks for the 
explanation. I must admit that I am not up on identifying the real thing. 
Sometimes the manufacturer of these vintage items misidentified the items 
causing confusion or they were to generic to be properly classified.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  anypaddler 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:26 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg SW 
  engines
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Jim H. wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The only engine they was ever sold was the SW-1 
  (or SW-600).

                                                                                                                                                                                      It's an SW-1; the easy spotting features are the 
  half-height radiator grill on the front and the sand box below 
  it.

                                                                                                                                                                                      EMD's later SW-600 shared the same basic carbody as the rest of the 
  EMD switcher line starting in 1949 with the 1200-hp SW-7. The SW-1 was 
  replaced by the SW600 in 1954. And while SW originally meant Six hundred 
  horsepower with a Welded frame, the SW-7 was the first model where "SW" meant 
  SWitcher. The designations SW-2 through SW-6 were never used, the SW-8 rated 
  800 hp, and the SW-9 went back up to 1200 hp. After that, EMD went to hp-based 
  numbering, i.e., SW-600, SW-800, etc., until replaced by the MP-series units. 
  The only consistent spotting feature of unrebuilt EMD switchers since the 
  intro of the SW-7 has been a single exhaust stack for units rated 1000 hp or 
  less, 2 stacks for units rated above 1000 hp.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11119
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Lindberg SW engines
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          The Varney situation you 
mentioned probably deals with their switcher. I still don't know today if 
it represents a SW-7 or an NW-2  or what Varney thought it 
was.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 3:34 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg SW 
  engines
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      You're right, Jim, about model makers mis-identifying 
        these locomotives. Perhaps most famously is on the O gauge side, where 
        Lionel, for the longest time, called their NW-2 an SW-1.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I want 
        to say Varney did something similar, too, but really don't recall if 
        they did.

                                                                                                                                                                                      It doesn't help that there are not many of the old 
        GM-EMD switchers on the rails anymore either. Even when I was a kid in 
        the early 1990s in Iowa, our local yard was switched by a 
        Geep.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Wed, 7/22/09, jim heckard 
        <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
          jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
          Re: Lindberg SW engines
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 
          Wednesday, July 22, 2009, 2:00 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Ralph B,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                             
          Thanks for the explanation. I must admit that I am not up on 
          identifying the real thing. Sometimes the manufacturer of these 
          vintage items misidentified the items causing confusion or they were 
          to generic to be properly classified.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- 
            Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
            anypaddler 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 
            Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:26 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: 
            [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg SW engines
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            

                                                                                                                                                                                        
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou 
            ps.com, Jim H. wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The only engine they was 
            ever sold was the SW-1 (or SW-600).

                                                                                                                                                                                      It's an SW-1; the easy 
            spotting features are the half-height radiator grill on the front 
            and the sand box below it.

                                                                                                                                                                                      EMD's later SW-600 shared the same 
            basic carbody as the rest of the EMD switcher line starting in 1949 
            with the 1200-hp SW-7. The SW-1 was replaced by the SW600 in 1954. 
            And while SW originally meant Six hundred horsepower with a Welded 
            frame, the SW-7 was the first model where "SW" meant SWitcher. The 
            designations SW-2 through SW-6 were never used, the SW-8 rated 800 
            hp, and the SW-9 went back up to 1200 hp. After that, EMD went to 
            hp-based numbering, i.e., SW-600, SW-800, etc., until replaced by 
            the MP-series units. The only consistent spotting feature of 
            unrebuilt EMD switchers since the intro of the SW-7 has been a 
            single exhaust stack for units rated 1000 hp or less, 2 stacks for 
            units rated above 1000 hp.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Ralph 
          B

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11120
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Engine ID needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                           I need some help. Have 
heard of UMPCO before but know nothing about them. ( I think they made drives 
for Trackside Specialty items). Can anyone ID this engine ? Is it UMPCO like the 
box ? All brass. When made ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11121
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 7/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Engine ID needed [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
I can't see enough of the loco to be sure.  The tender trucks are
probably not the correct ones.  The mechanism looks like the Winton
Alleghaney kit but I can't see enough boiler to be sure.  All of the
UmpCo I am familiar with was track products.  Can you post more
pictures of the loco and tender?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
=================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           I need some help. Have heard of
UMPCO before but know nothing about them. ( I think they made drives
for Trackside Specialty items). Can anyone ID this engine ? Is it UMPCO
like the box ? All brass. When made ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11122
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 7/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Lindberg SW engines
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The Varney engine is a pre-war NW-2.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Revell "SW-7" is a post-war NW-2
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:39 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg SW engines
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    The Varney situation you mentioned probably deals with their switcher. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
still don't know today if it represents a SW-7 or an NW-2  or what Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
thought it was.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                         Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  From: Stephen Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 3:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg SW engines
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    You're right, Jim, about model makers mis-identifying these locomotives. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Perhaps most famously is on the O gauge side, where Lionel, for the longest 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
time, called their NW-2 an SW-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
        I want to say Varney did something similar, too, but really don't 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
recall if they did.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
        It doesn't help that there are not many of the old GM-EMD switchers 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
on the rails anymore either. Even when I was a kid in the early 1990s in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Iowa, our local yard was switched by a Geep.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
        -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
        --- On Wed, 7/22/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg SW engines
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          Date: Wednesday, July 22, 2009, 2:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          Hi Ralph B,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                 Thanks for the explanation. I must admit that I am not up 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
on identifying the real thing. Sometimes the manufacturer of these vintage 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
items misidentified the items causing confusion or they were to generic to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
be properly classified.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
            ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            From: anypaddler
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:26 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lindberg SW engines
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
            --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Jim H. wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            > The only engine they was ever sold was the SW-1 (or SW-600).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
            It's an SW-1; the easy spotting features are the half-height 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
radiator grill on the front and the sand box below it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
            EMD's later SW-600 shared the same basic carbody as the rest of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the EMD switcher line starting in 1949 with the 1200-hp SW-7. The SW-1 was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
replaced by the SW600 in 1954. And while SW originally meant Six hundred 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
horsepower with a Welded frame, the SW-7 was the first model where "SW" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
meant SWitcher. The designations SW-2 through SW-6 were never used, the SW-8 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
rated 800 hp, and the SW-9 went back up to 1200 hp. After that, EMD went to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
hp-based numbering, i.e., SW-600, SW-800, etc., until replaced by the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
MP-series units. The only consistent spotting feature of unrebuilt EMD 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
switchers since the intro of the SW-7 has been a single exhaust stack for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
units rated 1000 hp or less, 2 stacks for units rated above 1000 hp.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
            Ralph B 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11123
						From: toytrain13
						Date: 7/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Blue Line roof vents
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello- I've recently built some old Blue Line 85' passenger car kits. However one type of plastic roof vent was unusable (the plastic had pulverized!). I've put some illustrations of this vent in an Album titled Blue Line roof vents (I can't figure out how to put the illustrations directly onto this post). Does anyone know of a source for replacement vents? I've already gone through the Walthers online catalog and looked at those vents that had illustrations. I also emailed a Canadian outfit, Great Western Passenger Car Details, but received no reply. Thanks for your help- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11124
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                 Here is 
a picture of the bottom. It is not my engine yet. I am thinking of buying 
it from a friend. It is not a Winton Allegheny kit. It is some kind of fancy 
brass. I'm out of my league on this type of brass. I don't know enough 
about  types of C&O Allegheny class steam engines but kind of feel that 
this tender goes with this class of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           The owner now tells me the 
engine came in the UMPCO box and probably doesn't go with it. (I ask what 
writing on end of box) I think UMPCO only made associated HO parts, not complete 
engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           The price is definitely 
right but I want to know what it is and who made it. Thanks for your 
reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11125
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 7/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Blue Line roof vents
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      If nothing else........
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
They look like something I could make.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Jul 22, 2009, at 8:28 PM, toytrain13 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hello- I've recently built some old Blue Line 85' passenger car  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> kits. However one type of plastic roof vent was unusable (the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> plastic had pulverized!). I've put some illustrations of this vent  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> in an Album titled Blue Line roof vents (I can't figure out how to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> put the illustrations directly onto this post). Does anyone know of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> a source for replacement vents? I've already gone through the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Walthers online catalog and looked at those vents that had  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> illustrations. I also emailed a Canadian outfit, Great Western  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Passenger Car Details, but received no reply. Thanks for your help-  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Richard White 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11126
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 7/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6 [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
It is a very early brass product because of the lack of detail.  It
has the wrong driver wheels for C&O.  They should be spoked
drivers.  The tender has no rivet detail which is not correct for
C&O and it has 2 trucks with 8 wheels but the Alleghaney only had
one 8 wheel truck on the rear of the tender and a 6 wheel truck on the
front of the tender.  I still cannot identify the make but it is very
early, probably in the '50's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
==============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Here is a picture of the
bottom. It is not my engine yet. I am thinking of buying it from a
friend. It is not a Winton Allegheny kit. It is some kind of fancy
brass. I'm out of my league on this type of brass. I don't know enough
about  types of C&O Allegheny class steam engines but kind of feel
that this tender goes with this class of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           The owner now tells me the
engine came in the UMPCO box and probably doesn't go with it. (I ask
what writing on end of box) I think UMPCO only made associated HO
parts, not complete engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           The price is definitely right
but I want to know what it is and who made it. Thanks for your reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11127
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 7/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
If you can get it for a good price and it runs it is still a nice
collector's item.  I wish you success.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
====================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      It is a very early brass product because of the lack of
detail.  It
has the wrong driver wheels for C&O.  They should be spoked
drivers.  The tender has no rivet detail which is not correct for
C&O and it has 2 trucks with 8 wheels but the Alleghaney only had
one 8 wheel truck on the rear of the tender and a 6 wheel truck on the
front of the tender.  I still cannot identify the make but it is very
early, probably in the '50's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
============ ========= ========= ========= =======
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
jim heckard wrote:
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Here is a picture of
the
bottom. It is not my engine yet. I am thinking of buying it from a
friend. It is not a Winton Allegheny kit. It is some kind of fancy
brass. I'm out of my league on this type of brass. I don't know enough
about  types of C&O Allegheny class steam engines but kind of feel
that this tender goes with this class of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                           The owner now tells me the
engine came in the UMPCO box and probably doesn't go with it. (I ask
what writing on end of box) I think UMPCO only made associated HO
parts, not complete engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                           The price is definitely right
but I want to know what it is and who made it. Thanks for your reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11128
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 7/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      It could be a custom-order item. A good number of those were built in Japan in the years just after WW-II

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      On Jul 22, 2009, at 9:12 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                      If you can get it for a good price and it runs it is still a nice collector's item.  I wish you success.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      ====================================================

                                                                                                                                                                                      Donald R. Staton wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      It is a very early brass product because of the lack of detail.  It has the wrong driver wheels for C&O.  They should be spoked drivers.  The tender has no rivet detail which is not correct for C&O and it has 2 trucks with 8 wheels but the Alleghaney only had one 8 wheel truck on the rear of the tender and a 6 wheel truck on the front of the tender.  I still cannot identify the make but it is very early, probably in the '50's.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      ============ ========= ========= ========= =======

                                                                                                                                                                                      jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Here is a picture of the bottom. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11129
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 7/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 


 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I had never associated UMPCo with locomotives--I 
thought they only made inexpensive wooden car and structure kits
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 7:16 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      It 
  could be a custom-order item. A good number of those were built in Japan in 
  the years just after WW-II
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      On Jul 22, 2009, at 9:12 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    


                                                                                                                                                                                      If you can get it for a 
    good price and it runs it is still a nice collector's item.  I wish you 
    success.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Staton in 
    VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      ====================================================

                                                                                                                                                                                      Donald 
    R. Staton wrote:
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      It 
      is a very early brass product because of the lack of detail.  It has 
      the wrong driver wheels for C&O.  They should be spoked 
      drivers.  The tender has no rivet detail which is not correct for 
      C&O and it has 2 trucks with 8 wheels but the Alleghaney only had one 
      8 wheel truck on the rear of the tender and a 6 wheel truck on the front 
      of the tender.  I still cannot identify the make but it is very 
      early, probably in the '50's.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Staton in 
      VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      ============ ========= ========= ========= =======

                                                                                                                                                                                      jim 
      heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
        Here is a picture of the 
      bottom. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11130
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                           The owner tells me it is 
very heavy and has a big motor. He actually mentions maybe an O gauge. (Winton's 
Allegheny used an O gauge motor too but again this is not Winton). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Would you pay $65 
plus shipping for this engine. I intend to buy even though I don't collect this 
type of brass item.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:12 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      If you can get it for a good price and it runs it is still a nice 
  collector's item.  I wish you success.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Staton in 
  VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====

                                                                                                                                                                                      Donald 
  R. Staton wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      It is a very early brass product because of the lack of detail.  
    It has the wrong driver wheels for C&O.  They should be spoked 
    drivers.  The tender has no rivet detail which is not correct for 
    C&O and it has 2 trucks with 8 wheels but the Alleghaney only had one 8 
    wheel truck on the rear of the tender and a 6 wheel truck on the front of 
    the tender.  I still cannot identify the make but it is very early, 
    probably in the '50's.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Staton in 
    VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      ============ ========= ========= ========= =======

                                                                                                                                                                                      jim 
    heckard wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
      Here is a picture of the bottom. It is not my engine yet. I am 
      thinking of buying it from a friend. It is not a Winton Allegheny kit. It 
      is some kind of fancy brass. I'm out of my league on this type of brass. I 
      don't know enough about  types of C&O Allegheny class steam 
      engines but kind of feel that this tender goes with this class of 
      engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                           The owner now tells 
      me the engine came in the UMPCO box and probably doesn't go with it. (I 
      ask what writing on end of box) I think UMPCO only made associated HO 
      parts, not complete engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                           The price is 
      definitely right but I want to know what it is and who made it. Thanks for 
      your reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                         
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11131
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 7/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  
  

 
Yes I would pay that price for it if it runs.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
==============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           The owner tells me it is very
heavy and has a big motor. He actually mentions maybe an O gauge.
(Winton's Allegheny used an O gauge motor too but again this is not
Winton). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            Would you pay $65 plus
shipping for this engine. I intend to buy even though I don't collect
this type of brass item.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent:
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject:
Re: [vintageHO] 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
     
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      If you can get it for a good price and it runs it is still a
nice collector's item.  I wish you success.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Donald R. Staton wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      It is a very early brass product because of the lack of
detail.  It has the wrong driver wheels for C&O.  They should be
spoked drivers.  The tender has no rivet detail which is not correct
for C&O and it has 2 trucks with 8 wheels but the Alleghaney only
had one 8 wheel truck on the rear of the tender and a 6 wheel truck on
the front of the tender.  I still cannot identify the make but it is
very early, probably in the '50's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
============ ========= ========= ========= =======
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
jim heckard wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Here is a picture
of the bottom. It is not my engine yet. I am thinking of buying it from
a friend. It is not a Winton Allegheny kit. It is some kind of fancy
brass. I'm out of my league on this type of brass. I don't know enough
about  types of C&O Allegheny class steam engines but kind of feel
that this tender goes with this class of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                           The owner now tells me
the engine came in the UMPCO box and probably doesn't go with it. (I
ask what writing on end of box) I think UMPCO only made associated HO
parts, not complete engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                           The price is definitely
right but I want to know what it is and who made it. Thanks for your
reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11132
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 7/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 
 
 
 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I would.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of  jim
 heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009
08:14
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       






                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                           The owner
tells me it is very heavy and has a big motor. He actually mentions maybe an O
gauge. (Winton's Allegheny used an O gauge motor too but again this is not
Winton). 
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                            Would
you pay $65 plus shipping for this engine. I intend to buy even though I don't
collect this type of brass item.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11133
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 7/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      This doesn't have the "flavor" of being a Japanese 
made model to me.  Even a very early one.  The stamped recess in the 
tender bolster also strikes me as something less Japanese (where we 
might expect a flat bolster and turned spaceer) and more of an American 
solution (pretending it is a production item).  I think it would be very 
unlikely to see that bolster solution in a scratch built model so I'm guessing 
that whatever it is, it is or is based on a commercial offering.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      What American kit manufacturer used that same 
driver style otherwise?  Anything with that same tender truck 
appearance?  I suspect it may be from a manufacturer you already know of, 
or modified from such a kit.  Being a popular engine, it may be more likely 
that it actually was a complete kit and not kit bashed, if it was a 
kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The "Brown Book" was no help and I haven't looked 
further.  But a photo of even a mid 55/56 version that had been in an 
Austin box and they suspect made by Tetsudo and it looks very much like other 
Japanese models of that vintage and therefore nothing like the sort of things in 
your photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, that's a lot of speculation.  I suppose 
an answer might appear years down the road when least expected.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I do feel on firmer ground suggesting that $65 
shipping is exhorbitantly high.  Unless, perhaps, it is from 
overseas.  You can check shipping yourself on the www.usps.gov or www.ups.com sites if you know zip codes and 
approximate weight, and shipping method (Priority Mail?).  I figure 
somebody ought to be allowed to throw in a couple or a few bucks for packing 
material and "handling" (driving it to the shipper for example and the time it 
takes to do everything).  But this seems way high.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 6:14 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           The owner tells me it is 
  very heavy and has a big motor. He actually mentions maybe an O gauge. 
  (Winton's Allegheny used an O gauge motor too but again this is not Winton). 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            Would you pay $65 
  plus shipping for this engine. I intend to buy even though I don't collect 
  this type of brass item.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:12 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      If you can get it for a good price and it runs it is still a nice 
    collector's item.  I wish you success.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Staton in 
    VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====

                                                                                                                                                                                      Donald 
    R. Staton wrote: 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      It is a very early brass product because of the lack of 
      detail.  It has the wrong driver wheels for C&O.  They 
      should be spoked drivers.  The tender has no rivet detail which is 
      not correct for C&O and it has 2 trucks with 8 wheels but the 
      Alleghaney only had one 8 wheel truck on the rear of the tender and a 6 
      wheel truck on the front of the tender.  I still cannot identify the 
      make but it is very early, probably in the '50's.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Staton in 
      VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      ============ ========= ========= ========= =======

                                                                                                                                                                                      jim 
      heckard wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
        Here is a picture of the bottom. It is not my engine yet. I am 
        thinking of buying it from a friend. It is not a Winton Allegheny kit. 
        It is some kind of fancy brass. I'm out of my league on this type of 
        brass. I don't know enough about  types of C&O Allegheny 
        class steam engines but kind of feel that this tender goes with this 
        class of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                           The owner now 
        tells me the engine came in the UMPCO box and probably doesn't go with 
        it. (I ask what writing on end of box) I think UMPCO only made 
        associated HO parts, not complete engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                           The price is 
        definitely right but I want to know what it is and who made it. Thanks 
        for your reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                         
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11134
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 7/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Oops.  I misread the $65 as being shipping and 
not for the model.  (It must have been hard for me to equate such a low 
number to the purchase price so I glitched.)  Anything brass, and 
especially anything as grandiose as an articulated, is very easily worth 
that price.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 7:28 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      This doesn't have the "flavor" of being a 
  Japanese made model to me.  Even a very early one.  The stamped 
  recess in the tender bolster also strikes me as something less 
  Japanese (where we might expect a flat bolster and turned spaceer) and 
  more of an American solution (pretending it is a production item).  I 
  think it would be very unlikely to see that bolster solution in a scratch 
  built model so I'm guessing that whatever it is, it is or is based on a 
  commercial offering.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      What American kit manufacturer used that 
  same driver style otherwise?  Anything with that same tender truck 
  appearance?  I suspect it may be from a manufacturer you already know of, 
  or modified from such a kit.  Being a popular engine, it may be more 
  likely that it actually was a complete kit and not kit bashed, if it was a 
  kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      The "Brown Book" was no help and I haven't looked 
  further.  But a photo of even a mid 55/56 version that had been in an 
  Austin box and they suspect made by Tetsudo and it looks very much like other 
  Japanese models of that vintage and therefore nothing like the sort of things 
  in your photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, that's a lot of speculation.  I 
  suppose an answer might appear years down the road when least 
  expected.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I do feel on firmer ground suggesting that $65 
  shipping is exhorbitantly high.  Unless, perhaps, it is from 
  overseas.  You can check shipping yourself on the www.usps.gov or www.ups.com sites if you know zip codes and 
  approximate weight, and shipping method (Priority Mail?).  I figure 
  somebody ought to be allowed to throw in a couple or a few bucks for packing 
  material and "handling" (driving it to the shipper for example and the time it 
  takes to do everything).  But this seems way high.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 6:14 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                           The owner tells me it 
    is very heavy and has a big motor. He actually mentions maybe an O gauge. 
    (Winton's Allegheny used an O gauge motor too but again this is not Winton). 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            Would you pay 
    $65 plus shipping for this engine. I intend to buy even though I don't 
    collect this type of brass item.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:12 
      PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      

                                                                                                                                                                                        
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      If you can get it for a good price and it runs it is still a nice 
      collector's item.  I wish you success.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Staton in 
      VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====

                                                                                                                                                                                      Donald 
      R. Staton wrote: 
      
                                                                                                                                                                                        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      It is a very early brass product because of the lack of 
        detail.  It has the wrong driver wheels for C&O.  They 
        should be spoked drivers.  The tender has no rivet detail which is 
        not correct for C&O and it has 2 trucks with 8 wheels but the 
        Alleghaney only had one 8 wheel truck on the rear of the tender and a 6 
        wheel truck on the front of the tender.  I still cannot identify 
        the make but it is very early, probably in the '50's.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Staton 
        in 
        VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      ============ ========= ========= ========= =======

                                                                                                                                                                                      jim 
        heckard wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
          Here is a picture of the bottom. It is not my engine yet. I am 
          thinking of buying it from a friend. It is not a Winton Allegheny kit. 
          It is some kind of fancy brass. I'm out of my league on this type of 
          brass. I don't know enough about  types of C&O Allegheny 
          class steam engines but kind of feel that this tender goes with this 
          class of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                           The owner now 
          tells me the engine came in the UMPCO box and probably doesn't go with 
          it. (I ask what writing on end of box) I think UMPCO only made 
          associated HO parts, not complete engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                           The price is 
          definitely right but I want to know what it is and who made it. Thanks 
          for your reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                         
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11135
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 I think I will have to change my mind about this engine ID. Due to 
the new pictures I ask for and asked owner to clarify some points I now think it 
is a WINTON Allegheny . (Not the tender).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              The 
owner says it is very heavy. He wouldn't want to carry it around to long (Winton 
solid brass boiler)  Owner said before looks like O gauge motor. (Winton 
used O gauge motor). Don S remarked about not being spoked drivers for C&O. 
(Winton has same drivers as used on this engine). There are many more things 
which now lead me to Winton.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            When I first got 
pictures from the owner he mentioned certain things that lead me away from 
Winton and towards "fancy brass" and I couldn't see the lead truck either. There 
are still certain things don't match. I have just sent him 9 close up pictures 
of my Winton Allegheny to match to his engine. Waiting for reply.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Don 
S.         If I have to change my mind 
and you were right in the first place please excuse poor eyesight along not the 
best pictures and changing info.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11136
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 7/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: photos [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
You owe me no excuses.  We are all in this hobby together. 
I'm like Red Skelton used to say, "I calls 'em the way I sees 'em." 
The trailing truck and lack of detail led me to think Winton.  I could
not see the lead truck either.  Now that I see more I am convinced it
is a Winton...  The lead and trailing truck, the valve gear hangers,
the air pumps...  Still worth the money if it runs.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                      =============================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   I think I will have to
change my mind about this engine ID. Due to the new pictures I ask for
and asked owner to clarify some points I now think it is a WINTON
Allegheny . (Not the tender).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              The owner says it is very
heavy. He wouldn't want to carry it around to long (Winton solid brass
boiler)  Owner said before looks like O gauge motor. (Winton used O
gauge motor). Don S remarked about not being spoked drivers for
C&O. (Winton has same drivers as used on this engine). There are
many more things which now lead me to Winton.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            When I first got pictures from
the owner he mentioned certain things that lead me away from Winton and
towards "fancy brass" and I couldn't see the lead truck either. There
are still certain things don't match. I have just sent him 9 close up
pictures of my Winton Allegheny to match to his engine. Waiting for
reply.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             Don S.         If I have to
change my mind and you were right in the first place please excuse poor
eyesight along not the best pictures and changing info.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11137
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: My Winton
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don S,  All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I 
am sending a number of close-ups of my Winton Allegheny, which I know from 
building were original in the kit, for your to compare with the pictures I have 
sent of the engine I want to buy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          While so many things are 
the same some others are not. One is the design on the side of the drivers. 
My Winton valve gear, main and side rods are brass while the ones on the other 
look to be a silver plated metal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I have to buy now just to get it 
in my hands to compare.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11138
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 7/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I am sitting here at my office. I opened the attachment of the engine you are discussing. I have my Winton sitting about 4 feet away from me on a shelf. Your engine deffinately looks like a Winton engine to me..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 3:37:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] photos

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      You owe me no excuses.  We are all in this hobby together.  I'm like Red Skelton used to say, "I calls 'em the way I sees 'em."  The trailing truck and lack of detail led me to think Winton.  I could not see the lead truck either.  Now that I see more I am convinced it is a Winton...  The lead and trailing truck, the valve gear hangers, the air pumps...  Still worth the money if it runs.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ====
                                                                                                                                                                                      jim heckard wrote: 

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                   I think I will have to change my mind about this engine ID. Due to the new pictures I ask for and asked owner to clarify some points I now think it is a WINTON Allegheny . (Not the tender).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              The owner says it is very heavy. He wouldn't want to carry it around to long (Winton solid brass boiler)  Owner said before looks like O gauge motor. (Winton used O gauge motor). Don S remarked about not being spoked drivers for C&O. (Winton has same drivers as used on this engine). There are many more things which now lead me to Winton.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            When I first got pictures from the owner he mentioned certain things that lead me away from Winton and towards "fancy brass" and I couldn't see the lead truck either. There are still certain things don't match. I have just sent him 9 close up pictures of my Winton Allegheny to match to his engine. Waiting for reply.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Don S.         If I have to change my mind and you were right in the first place please excuse poor eyesight along not the best pictures and changing info.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11139
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 7/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: My Winton [7 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      My rods are not brass. They look to be an aluminum or the like. Maybe somewone chose to upgrade mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 3:35:26 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] My Winton [7 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don S,  All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am sending a number of close-ups of my Winton Allegheny, which I know from building were original in the kit, for your to compare with the pictures I have sent of the engine I want to buy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          While so many things are the same some others are not. One is the design on the side of the drivers. My Winton valve gear, main and side rods are brass while the ones on the other look to be a silver plated metal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I have to buy now just to get it in my hands to compare.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11140
						From: bongiovanni12001
						Date: 7/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Winton?? 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Once upon a time someone clarified for me the differences between the Winton, Arbour, and MaRa 2-6-6-6's.  It may have been on this list, or one of the C&O lists.  It's a very inferior C&O 2-6-6-6 as it stands.  That said, as a collector's item, or the start of a good model, or a conversation piece, at that price grab it.(okay; the postage will eat you alive, but still....)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Frank Bongiovanni
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11141
						From: morgantownrr
						Date: 7/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Gingerbread Stop
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Wondering if anyone knows what became of The Gingerbread Stop and/or Robert Fischer?  I am pretty sure the very professional store is not where it was when I haunted it more than 25 (gasp!) years ago. Thanks MSmith
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11142
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm 
afraid it's hopeless to try to ID the engine I'm trying to find out from just 
pictures. It is not a 100% match to my Winton but then they were made at 
two different shops and could have had some slight differences. The Ma Ra 
version had castings which Winton didn't. The Arbor model used no brass and was 
all castings. The owner of the engine of which I sent pictures claims nothing 
even handrails was attracted to a magnet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         I didn't intend to get into a new 
discussion on the Winton Allegheny again after a long thread in the 
past.  I actually first thought the engine was a sheet brass 
item, made in Japan perhaps, that could be identified easily. I am 
buying the engine. When it gets here I will be able to know better. Hoping it, 
whatever it is , is not modified or a mix of parts. The shipping won't be bad as 
owner in PA and I'm in PA.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         I thank everybody for trying. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim Heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11143
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 7/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Blue Line roof vents
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      If you do, make me some too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 9:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Blue Line roof vents
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> If nothing else........
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> They look like something I could make.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On Jul 22, 2009, at 8:28 PM, toytrain13 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Hello- I've recently built some old Blue Line 85' passenger car  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> kits. However one type of plastic roof vent was unusable (the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> plastic had pulverized!). I've put some illustrations of this vent  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> in an Album titled Blue Line roof vents (I can't figure out how to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> put the illustrations directly onto this post). Does anyone know of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> a source for replacement vents? I've already gone through the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Walthers online catalog and looked at those vents that had  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> illustrations. I also emailed a Canadian outfit, Great Western  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Passenger Car Details, but received no reply. Thanks for your help-  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11144
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Would I pay $65 (plus shipping) for this engine?  -- YOU BETCHUM!!! -- In the blink of an eye!  Even if it's not a Winton, which I'm convinced it is -- and my build up one is even closer to me than Sean's; was just in my hands, but I'm not about to try to hold it now with one hand while I type with the other (LOL).  There's a Winton Allegheny on eBay right now up to nearly 4 X this cost, at that's very conservative as I've seen them go closer to $400.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      The owner tells me it is very heavy and has a big motor. He actually mentions maybe an O gauge. (Winton's Allegheny used an O gauge motor too but again this is not Winton). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Would you pay $65 plus shipping for this engine. I intend to buy even though I don't collect this type of brass item.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: Donald R. Staton 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     If you can get it for a good price and it runs it is still a nice collector's item.  I wish you success.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ====================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Donald R. Staton wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     It is a very early brass product because of the lack of detail.  It has the wrong driver wheels for C&O.  They should be spoked drivers.  The tender has no rivet detail which is not correct for C&O and it has 2 trucks with 8 wheels but the Alleghaney only had one 8 wheel truck on the rear of the tender and a 6 wheel truck on the front of the tender.  I still cannot identify the make but it is very early, probably in the '50's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     ==============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     jim heckard wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                  Here is a picture of the bottom. It is not my engine yet. I am thinking of buying it from a friend. It is not a Winton Allegheny kit. It is some kind of fancy brass. I'm out of my league on this type of brass. I don't know enough about  types of C&O Allegheny class steam engines but kind of feel that this tender goes with this class of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            The owner now tells me the engine came in the UMPCO box and probably doesn't go with it. (I ask what writing on end of box) I think UMPCO only made associated HO parts, not complete engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            The price is definitely right but I want to know what it is and who made it. Thanks for your reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11145
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Engine ID needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,  As I just got done saying, I believe this engine to be a Winton.  Even if UMPCO had made such as engine, which I STRONGLY doubt, everything I can see about this engine points stricktly to the engineering designs and manufacturing of Winton as far as matching up with the limited number of photos I can see in the attachments.  More, as I take these ongoing comments one at a time.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      I need some help. Have heard of UMPCO before but know nothing about them. ( I think they made drives for Trackside Specialty items). Can anyone ID this engine ? Is it UMPCO like the box ? All brass. When made ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11146
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Engine ID needed [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Don, Jim,  Take another look at the tender.  Not only aren't the tender trucks the correct ones, but the TENDER itself is not the right one for the Allegheny engine -- and it's not a Winton tender either (Jim, you should no doubt recognize that fact).  This tender appears closest to Bowser's T-7 tender for their PRR T-1 Duplex engine, although the "skirting" seems to be higher; that appearance may only be due to the low angle the photo was taken from, or perhaps incorrect construction of the tender putting it higher on the mainframe.  These tender trucks match Bowser's T-7 tender identically, when viewing them from the bottom.  More . . .   Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /I can't see enough of the loco to be sure.  The tender trucks are 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> probably not the correct ones.  The mechanism looks like the Winton 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Alleghaney kit but I can't see enough boiler to be sure.  All of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> UmpCo I am familiar with was track products.  Can you post more pictures 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of the loco and tender?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> =================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >      I need some help. Have heard of UMPCO before but know nothing 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > about them. ( I think they made drives for Trackside Specialty items). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Can anyone ID this engine ? Is it UMPCO like the box ? All brass. When 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > made ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11147
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,  In matching this photo of the bottom of this Allegheny to that of my built up Winton, I find it to be an IDENTICAL MATCH, after looking everything over in detail -- including the engineering design of Winton's manufacture of all their compontents -- and that includes the perfect matching of the front and rear truck designs.  There is only one thing that's different, and that's the short bright metal strap connecting the front and rear "engines" (driver sets), which looks like an add-on (my engine doesn't have that piece).  I could check out the plans in my kit versions but I'm too lazy to as I'm convinced it's not necessary.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I see you've since changed your mind about the make of this engine since stating it is not a Winton, and rightly so.  This tender does not go with a C&O Allegheny though, as I pointed out in my previous post.  Ray F.W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
P.S.: If you decide not to take it, let me know and I'll buy it, (ROTFL).  I'll even give you a $20 finders fee (LOL).  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            Here is a picture of the bottom. It is not my engine yet. I am thinking of buying it from a friend. It is not a Winton Allegheny kit. It is some kind of fancy brass. I'm out of my league on this type of brass. I don't know enough about  types of C&O Allegheny class steam engines but kind of feel that this tender goes with this class of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      The owner now tells me the engine came in the UMPCO box and probably doesn't go with it. (I ask what writing on end of box) I think UMPCO only made associated HO parts, not complete engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      The price is definitely right but I want to know what it is and who made it. Thanks for your reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11148
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6 [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Don, Winton was known for lack of detail, their models were rather plain but enjoyed for what they were.  Sure 'nuff, they ARE the wrong drivers for C&O, they should have been spoked drivers if the model were to follow the prototype more precisely -- but they weren't -- as this IS what Winton supplied with their Allegheny kits.  Even the Virginian Allegheny engines had spoked drivers, at least the ones that I've seen, so I have no explanation for Winton's use of Skullen Disk drivers on this model but that point is really immaterial as that's what their kits had.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Right, as I previously stated, this is not the correct tender for C&O.  As for this (Jim's photo) model in question having two 8-wheel trucks on the tender, that's what the PRR T-7 tenders had.  Your description of the C&O Allegheny tender having one 6-wheel truck and one 8-wheel truck, along with the rivet detail was probably seen by Jim when he checked out his present model on his display shelf, unless he has the wrong tender with his present model.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /It is a very early brass product because of the lack of detail.  It has 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the wrong driver wheels for C&O.  They should be spoked drivers.  The 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> tender has no rivet detail which is not correct for C&O and it has 2 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> trucks with 8 wheels but the Alleghaney only had one 8 wheel truck on 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the rear of the tender and a 6 wheel truck on the front of the tender.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I still cannot identify the make but it is very early, probably in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> '50's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ==============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >            Here is a picture of the bottom. It is not my engine yet. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > am thinking of buying it from a friend. It is not a Winton Allegheny 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > kit. It is some kind of fancy brass. I'm out of my league on this type 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > of brass. I don't know enough about  types of C&O Allegheny class 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > steam engines but kind of feel that this tender goes with this class 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >      The owner now tells me the engine came in the UMPCO box and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > probably doesn't go with it. (I ask what writing on end of box) I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > think UMPCO only made associated HO parts, not complete engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >      The price is definitely right but I want to know what it is and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > who made it. Thanks for your reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11149
						From: Brent Buckley
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Friend and others,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Could anybody please tell me where I would obtain connecting rods and valve gear for the above ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Many Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brent Buckley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Manchester
                                                                                                                                                                                      
England
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11150
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck,  That's how I see it -- it doesn't have the "flavor" of a Japanese made model.  The various stampings of some components -- also obvious in the side view of the rear engine truck -- is just what I meant when saying Winton did not have much detail (in general), although they did have lots of riveting detail in the tender.  This "feature" was a "signature" of Winton.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As for the same driver style, As far I can recollect right now only the Bowser cast brass M-1 Mountain (previously made by Knapp) used the same style drivers -- and we know neither of these manufacturers produced an Allegheny.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> This doesn't have the "flavor" of being a Japanese made model to me.  Even a very early one.  The stamped recess in the tender bolster also strikes me as something less Japanese (where we might expect a flat bolster and turned spaceer) and more of an American solution (pretending it is a production item).  I think it would be very unlikely to see that bolster solution in a scratch built model so I'm guessing that whatever it is, it is or is based on a commercial offering.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> What American kit manufacturer used that same driver style otherwise?  Anything with that same tender truck appearance?  I suspect it may be from a manufacturer you already know of, or modified from such a kit.  Being a popular engine, it may be more likely that it actually was a complete kit and not kit bashed, if it was a kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The "Brown Book" was no help and I haven't looked further.  But a photo of even a mid 55/56 version that had been in an Austin box and they suspect made by Tetsudo and it looks very much like other Japanese models of that vintage and therefore nothing like the sort of things in your photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Well, that's a lot of speculation.  I suppose an answer might appear years down the road when least expected.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I do feel on firmer ground suggesting that $65 shipping is exhorbitantly high.  Unless, perhaps, it is from overseas.  You can check shipping yourself on the www.usps.gov or www.ups.com sites if you know zip codes and approximate weight, and shipping method (Priority Mail?).  I figure somebody ought to be allowed to throw in a couple or a few bucks for packing material and "handling" (driving it to the shipper for example and the time it takes to do everything).  But this seems way high.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 6:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        The owner tells me it is very heavy and has a big motor. He actually mentions maybe an O gauge. (Winton's Allegheny used an O gauge motor too but again this is not Winton). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         Would you pay $65 plus shipping for this engine. I intend to buy even though I don't collect this type of brass item.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     From: Donald R. Staton 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     If you can get it for a good price and it runs it is still a nice collector's item.  I wish you success.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     ====================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Donald R. Staton wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       It is a very early brass product because of the lack of detail.  It has the wrong driver wheels for C&O.  They should be spoked drivers.  The tender has no rivet detail which is not correct for C&O and it has 2 trucks with 8 wheels but the Alleghaney only had one 8 wheel truck on the rear of the tender and a 6 wheel truck on the front of the tender.  I still cannot identify the make but it is very early, probably in the '50's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       ==============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       jim heckard wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>           
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                    Here is a picture of the bottom. It is not my engine yet. I am thinking of buying it from a friend. It is not a Winton Allegheny kit. It is some kind of fancy brass. I'm out of my league on this type of brass. I don't know enough about  types of C&O Allegheny class steam engines but kind of feel that this tender goes with this class of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>              The owner now tells me the engine came in the UMPCO box and probably doesn't go with it. (I ask what writing on end of box) I think UMPCO only made associated HO parts, not complete engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>              The price is definitely right but I want to know what it is and who made it. Thanks for your reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11151
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dis not know the price until now.. If you do not want it, send it my way at that price. (;P)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 7:08:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 2-6-6-6

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Would I pay $65 (plus shipping) for this engine? -- YOU BETCHUM!!! -- In the blink of an eye! Even if it's not a Winton, which I'm convinced it is -- and my build up one is even closer to me than Sean's; was just in my hands, but I'm not about to try to hold it now with one hand while I type with the other (LOL). There's a Winton Allegheny on eBay right now up to nearly 4 X this cost, at that's very conservative as I've seen them go closer to $400. Ray F.W.

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The owner tells me it is very heavy and has a big motor. He actually mentions maybe an O gauge. (Winton's Allegheny used an O gauge motor too but again this is not Winton). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Would you pay $65 plus shipping for this engine. I intend to buy even though I don't
 collect this type of brass item.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: Donald R. Staton 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > If you can get it for a good price and it runs it is still a nice collector's item. I wish you success.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Donald R. Staton wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > It is a very early brass product because of the lack of detail. It has the wrong driver wheels for C&O. They should be spoked drivers. The tender has no rivet detail which is not correct for C&O and it has 2 trucks with 8 wheels but the Alleghaney only had one 8 wheel truck on the
 rear of the tender and a 6 wheel truck on the front of the tender. I still cannot identify the make but it is very early, probably in the '50's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ============ ========= ========= ========= =======
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > jim heckard wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Here is a picture of the bottom. It is not my engine yet. I am thinking of buying it from a friend. It is not a Winton Allegheny kit. It is some kind of fancy brass. I'm out of my league on this type of brass. I don't know enough about types of C&O Allegheny class steam engines but kind of feel that this tender goes with this class of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The owner now tells me the engine came in the UMPCO box and probably doesn't go with it. (I ask what writing on end of box) I think UMPCO only made associated HO parts, not complete engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The price is definitely right but I want to know what it is and
 who made it. Thanks for your reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11152
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  
  

 
I thought Winton because I have a Winton Berkshire partial kit and
it has the same features as I saw on the 2-6-6-6 in the photos.  I did
not recognize the tender because I have never examined a 4-4-4-4 tender
up close and the only one I did actually see was made of aluminum
instead of brass.  I thought the trucks might be Penn Line but never
saw those up close before either, I just knew it did not belong with
the Allegheny.  I know Allegheny locomotives because I am a lover of
that locomotive along with the C&O, 2-10-4, 2-8-4 and 4-8-4 and I
know how they are supposed to look.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
erieberk wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Don, Winton was known for lack of detail, their models were rather
plain but enjoyed for what they were. Sure 'nuff, they ARE the wrong
drivers for C&O, they should have been spoked drivers if the model
were to follow the prototype more precisely -- but they weren't -- as
this IS what Winton supplied with their Allegheny kits. Even the
Virginian Allegheny engines had spoked drivers, at least the ones that
I've seen, so I have no explanation for Winton's use of Skullen Disk
drivers on this model but that point is really immaterial as that's
what their kits had.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Right, as I previously stated, this is not the correct tender for
C&O. As for this (Jim's photo) model in question having two 8-wheel
trucks on the tender, that's what the PRR T-7 tenders had. Your
description of the C&O Allegheny tender having one 6-wheel truck
and one 8-wheel truck, along with the rivet detail was probably seen by
Jim when he checked out his present model on his display shelf, unless
he has the wrong tender with his present model. Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /It is a very early brass product because of the lack of detail.
It has 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the wrong driver wheels for C&O. They should be spoked
drivers. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> tender has no rivet detail which is not correct for C&O and it
has 2 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> trucks with 8 wheels but the Alleghaney only had one 8 wheel truck
on 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the rear of the tender and a 6 wheel truck on the front of the
tender. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I still cannot identify the make but it is very early, probably in
the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> '50's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ============ ========= ========= ========= =======
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > [Attachment( s) <#TopText> from jim heckard
included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Here is a picture of the bottom. It is not my engine yet. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > am thinking of buying it from a friend. It is not a Winton
Allegheny 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > kit. It is some kind of fancy brass. I'm out of my league on
this type 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > of brass. I don't know enough about types of C&O
Allegheny class 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > steam engines but kind of feel that this tender goes with
this class 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > The owner now tells me the engine came in the UMPCO box and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > probably doesn't go with it. (I ask what writing on end of
box) I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > think UMPCO only made associated HO parts, not complete
engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > The price is definitely right but I want to know what it is
and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > who made it. Thanks for your reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11153
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I might have some, I will have to check.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I know I tore one apart some time ago. I think I saved the entire valve gear assembly.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Brent Buckley <buckley37@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 6:20:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Friend and others,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Could anybody please tell me where I would obtain connecting rods and valve gear for the above ?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Many Thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brent Buckley
                                                                                                                                                                                      Manchester
                                                                                                                                                                                      England


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11154
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: My Winton
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,  Thanks for sending along those photos of your Winton Allegheny.  I think they may help explain these Winton Allegheny's in general.  For starters, ALL of the components of your Allegheny match my built-up Winton Allegheny IDENTICALLY in their engineering, except for those few features you pointed out -- such as the driver design and the running gear (main & side rods and valve gear).  I would not be concerned about these minor incidentals as it appears Winton had changed their design and material over the years.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Up until now, I was reluctant about digging out my Winton Allegheny kit, which was previously buried under a bunch of other engine kits -- but which I found (had forgotten) was rearranged for better access when I dug out my two Schraeder GG-1's a while ago.  So, now in comparing my built-up Winton Allegheny to the photo of the Allegheny model in question (not yours), I find my drivers to be identical.  I do note that your Scullen Disk drivers are different, having heavier counterweights and larger but fewer "holes."  You'll know that Winton changed their design of them over the years when I tell you that my later production CAST Winton Allegheny kit has SPOKED drivers -- pointing to changes in production runs.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The other point you seemed to be a bit concerned about is the running gear.  Just like Sean's Winton Allegheny, my built-up Winton Allegheny ALSO has aluminum main rods, side rods and valve gear.  These pieces are silver in color and are not attracted to a magnet.  I note your running gear is all brass.  My Cast Winton Allegheny kit has brass main rods and aluminum side rods and valve gear -- except for the links and crossheads w/valve rods which are brass.  So it appears that Winton had changed their composition of metal of these parts at least three different times from all aluminum, to all brass and finally to both aluminum and brass.  I'm quite positive the Allegheny you're buying is a Winton and congrats on it, especially at the price you're getting it for.  I've seen several Winton Allegheny tenders on eBay within the past year (Winton did sell them as separate kits, I have one), so you'll have to keep a watch for one.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don S,  All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>             I am sending a number of close-ups of my Winton Allegheny, which I know from building were original in the kit, for your to compare with the pictures I have sent of the engine I want to buy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     While so many things are the same some others are not. One is the design on the side of the drivers. My Winton valve gear, main and side rods are brass while the ones on the other look to be a silver plated metal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     I have to buy now just to get it in my hands to compare.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11155
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry, I already asked before -- have first "dibs" (LOL).  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dis not know the price until now.. If you do not want it, send it my way at that price. (;P)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 7:08:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Would I pay $65 (plus shipping) for this engine? -- YOU BETCHUM!!! -- In the blink of an eye! Even if it's not a Winton, which I'm convinced it is -- and my build up one is even closer to me than Sean's; was just in my hands, but I'm not about to try to hold it now with one hand while I type with the other (LOL). There's a Winton Allegheny on eBay right now up to nearly 4 X this cost, at that's very conservative as I've seen them go closer to $400. Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > The owner tells me it is very heavy and has a big motor. He actually mentions maybe an O gauge. (Winton's Allegheny used an O gauge motor too but again this is not Winton). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Would you pay $65 plus shipping for this engine. I intend to buy even though I don't collect this type of brass item.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > From: Donald R. Staton 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:12 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > If you can get it for a good price and it runs it is still a nice collector's item. I wish you success.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Donald R. Staton wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > It is a very early brass product because of the lack of detail. It has the wrong driver wheels for C&O. They should be spoked drivers. The tender has no rivet detail which is not correct for C&O and it has 2 trucks with 8 wheels but the Alleghaney only had one 8 wheel truck on the rear of the tender and a 6 wheel truck on the front of the tender. I still cannot identify the make but it is very early, probably in the '50's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ============ ========= ========= ========= =======
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > jim heckard wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Here is a picture of the bottom. It is not my engine yet. I am thinking of buying it from a friend. It is not a Winton Allegheny kit. It is some kind of fancy brass. I'm out of my league on this type of brass. I don't know enough about types of C&O Allegheny class steam engines but kind of feel that this tender goes with this class of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > The owner now tells me the engine came in the UMPCO box and probably doesn't go with it. (I ask what writing on end of box) I think UMPCO only made associated HO parts, not complete engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > The price is definitely right but I want to know what it is and who made it. Thanks for your reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11156
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Abour Models Allegheny, was -- 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Don being a C&O fan, and a fan of Allegheny engines, I was just wondering if you've tried assembling an Arbour Models Allegheny.  I bought one when they first came out (about 20 years ago?) but never tried putting it together yet -- has the correct spoked drivers, incidentally.  I understand that Arbour Kits are a bear to work on and thought I'd ask about your experiences with them.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /I thought Winton because I have a Winton Berkshire partial kit and it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> has the same features as I saw on the 2-6-6-6 in the photos.  I did not 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> recognize the tender because I have never examined a 4-4-4-4 tender up 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> close and the only one I did actually see was made of aluminum instead 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of brass.  I thought the trucks might be Penn Line but never saw those 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> up close before either, I just knew it did not belong with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Allegheny.  I know Allegheny locomotives because I am a lover of that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> locomotive along with the C&O, 2-10-4, 2-8-4 and 4-8-4 and I know how 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> they are supposed to look.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Don, Winton was known for lack of detail, their models were rather 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > plain but enjoyed for what they were. Sure 'nuff, they ARE the wrong 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > drivers for C&O, they should have been spoked drivers if the model 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > were to follow the prototype more precisely -- but they weren't -- as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > this IS what Winton supplied with their Allegheny kits. Even the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Virginian Allegheny engines had spoked drivers, at least the ones that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I've seen, so I have no explanation for Winton's use of Skullen Disk 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > drivers on this model but that point is really immaterial as that's 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > what their kits had.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Right, as I previously stated, this is not the correct tender for C&O. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > As for this (Jim's photo) model in question having two 8-wheel trucks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > on the tender, that's what the PRR T-7 tenders had. Your description 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > of the C&O Allegheny tender having one 6-wheel truck and one 8-wheel 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > truck, along with the rivet detail was probably seen by Jim when he 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > checked out his present model on his display shelf, unless he has the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > wrong tender with his present model. Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > /It is a very early brass product because of the lack of detail. It has
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > the wrong driver wheels for C&O. They should be spoked drivers. The
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > tender has no rivet detail which is not correct for C&O and it has 2
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > trucks with 8 wheels but the Alleghaney only had one 8 wheel truck on
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > the rear of the tender and a 6 wheel truck on the front of the tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I still cannot identify the make but it is very early, probably in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > '50's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > ==============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > /
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Here is a picture of the bottom. It is not my engine yet. I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > am thinking of buying it from a friend. It is not a Winton Allegheny
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > kit. It is some kind of fancy brass. I'm out of my league on this 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > type
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > of brass. I don't know enough about types of C&O Allegheny class
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > steam engines but kind of feel that this tender goes with this class
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > The owner now tells me the engine came in the UMPCO box and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > probably doesn't go with it. (I ask what writing on end of box) I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > think UMPCO only made associated HO parts, not complete engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > The price is definitely right but I want to know what it is and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > who made it. Thanks for your reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11157
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Ray W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I thank everyone for there 
comments. I will be buying the engine no matter what it is. I must hold it in my 
hands to decide what it is.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm sorry that  I must 
disagree about totally identical Winton Allegheny. Unless Winton used 2 types of 
Scullen disk drivers take notice to the detail differences on the sides of the 
drivers of both engines. I also see some other slight differences which could 
have come about from the builder. One is the framing ? around the front coupler. 
My engine has it soldered  on and the top is even with the other cross 
piece. The unknown engine looks like screws or rivets holding it on and the 
piece does not go as high up on the front piece it is connected 
too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         I see others but hard for me to type a 
good explanation. I do have to wonder about Sean's Winton Allegheny having tin 
or silver plated type materials for main ,side and valve gear. The parts 
for mine were all brass and were in the Winton unbuilt kit when I bought it. I 
know I had to make some copies of small pieces of the valve gear that were 
missing from sheet brass. What a pain that tedious job was. Did different models 
made at least at two different plants use different materials ? (Not talking 
about the Ma Ra version)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Talking about the 
piece on the bottom joining the two sets of drivers together, I would have to go 
over my plans and drawings for my engines. You know there are two different sets 
/ drawings , each with a different address on them ?  If I remember right 
the original plans called for the front set of drivers to kind of hang loose 
when you pick up the engine (much like the Varney Yellowstone). One of the 
pictures of the unknown engine shows how the front set of drivers could really 
swing out from the boiler. That piece on the bottom, whether added or called 
for, was more a support for that front set since the only other support would be 
the coil spring for driving when picked up. I hope I have explained that it is 
able to be understood.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          To help mine I did modify the 
front set of drivers.I made a brass T that screwed into the underneath of the 
boiler. I then cut a slot the opposite way in the top of the set of drivers. I 
could then "hang" the front set from the boiler, still be articulated and 
provide good support for the weight of the front drivers when picked up while 
still allowing very easily to disassemble if something went wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I know it is the wrong tender 
for the Winton. When I first looked at the photos for the unknown engine that 
tender caught my eye. I was wondering, not knowing the real thing, was it a 
tender for another type of C&O Allegheny( which I only knew because of the 
decals that could have been wrong). To quick to make snap judgment I should have 
asked seller for different pictures first. I didn't think the UMPCO box was 
right for the engine because I didn't know of them making complete 
engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          My first thought, upon 
seeing the first 3 pictures, was a "fancy"brass" engine that would be out of my 
league to ID. In a rush to ID it so I could buy it I should have spent more 
time, got more pictures and compared with mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           While I believe now it is 
basically a Winton Allegheny engine (not tender) I still believe some 
modification has taken place. Buying it and holding it in my hand will 
answer much. If it was / is "fancy" brass I would probably buy it for $ 65 even 
though it wouldn't fit in my collection. But if it is a Winton engine, 
either a variation by the manufacturer or modified by the builder, like that TV 
show "The Price Is Right"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 7:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, In matching this photo of the bottom of this Allegheny to that of my 
  built up Winton, I find it to be an IDENTICAL MATCH, after looking everything 
  over in detail -- including the engineering design of Winton's manufacture of 
  all their compontents -- and that includes the perfect matching of the front 
  and rear truck designs. There is only one thing that's different, and that's 
  the short bright metal strap connecting the front and rear "engines" (driver 
  sets), which looks like an add-on (my engine doesn't have that piece). I could 
  check out the plans in my kit versions but I'm too lazy to as I'm convinced 
  it's not necessary. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I see you've since changed your mind about the 
  make of this engine since stating it is not a Winton, and rightly so. This 
  tender does not go with a C&O Allegheny though, as I pointed out in my 
  previous post. Ray F.W

                                                                                                                                                                                      P.S.: If you decide not to take it, let me know 
  and I'll buy it, (ROTFL). I'll even give you a $20 finders fee (LOL). 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Here is a picture of the bottom. It is not my engine yet. I am 
  thinking of buying it from a friend. It is not a Winton Allegheny kit. It is 
  some kind of fancy brass. I'm out of my league on this type of brass. I don't 
  know enough about types of C&O Allegheny class steam engines but kind of 
  feel that this tender goes with this class of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The 
  owner now tells me the engine came in the UMPCO box and probably doesn't go 
  with it. (I ask what writing on end of box) I think UMPCO only made associated 
  HO parts, not complete engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The price is definitely 
  right but I want to know what it is and who made it. Thanks for your 
  reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11158
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: My Winton
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Ray W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I just sent an email as I 
received yours. I think we are in agreement that Winton had variations and that 
is causing the confusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I have seen the tenders for the 
Winton Allegheny sold separately and wanted to buy one to get the original 8 
wheel rear truck (I'm using an Arbour for now ). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 10:02 
AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: My Winton
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, Thanks for sending along those photos of your Winton Allegheny. I 
  think they may help explain these Winton Allegheny's in general. For starters, 
  ALL of the components of your Allegheny match my built-up Winton Allegheny 
  IDENTICALLY in their engineering, except for those few features you pointed 
  out -- such as the driver design and the running gear (main & side rods 
  and valve gear). I would not be concerned about these minor incidentals as it 
  appears Winton had changed their design and material over the years.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Up 
  until now, I was reluctant about digging out my Winton Allegheny kit, which 
  was previously buried under a bunch of other engine kits -- but which I found 
  (had forgotten) was rearranged for better access when I dug out my two 
  Schraeder GG-1's a while ago. So, now in comparing my built-up Winton 
  Allegheny to the photo of the Allegheny model in question (not yours), I find 
  my drivers to be identical. I do note that your Scullen Disk drivers are 
  different, having heavier counterweights and larger but fewer "holes." You'll 
  know that Winton changed their design of them over the years when I tell you 
  that my later production CAST Winton Allegheny kit has SPOKED drivers -- 
  pointing to changes in production runs.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The other point you seemed to 
  be a bit concerned about is the running gear. Just like Sean's Winton 
  Allegheny, my built-up Winton Allegheny ALSO has aluminum main rods, side rods 
  and valve gear. These pieces are silver in color and are not attracted to a 
  magnet. I note your running gear is all brass. My Cast Winton Allegheny kit 
  has brass main rods and aluminum side rods and valve gear -- except for the 
  links and crossheads w/valve rods which are brass. So it appears that Winton 
  had changed their composition of metal of these parts at least three different 
  times from all aluminum, to all brass and finally to both aluminum and brass. 
  I'm quite positive the Allegheny you're buying is a Winton and congrats on it, 
  especially at the price you're getting it for. I've seen several Winton 
  Allegheny tenders on eBay within the past year (Winton did sell them as 
  separate kits, I have one), so you'll have to keep a watch for one. Ray 
  F.W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Don S, All, 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I am sending a number of close-ups of my Winton 
  Allegheny, which I know from building were original in the kit, for your to 
  compare with the pictures I have sent of the engine I want to buy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  While so many things are the same some others are not. One is the design on 
  the side of the drivers. My Winton valve gear, main and side rods are brass 
  while the ones on the other look to be a silver plated metal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  I have to buy now just to get it in my hands to compare.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11159
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Abour Models Allegheny, was -- 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  
  

 
When they came out I was in a tough financial situation and never
could get to where I could buy one.  I did manage to find a tender kit
by itself so I bought it to convert to use with a 2-10-4 I was planning
to build from Hobbyline Berk boilers.  I did build the boiler but made
it into a 4-8-4 instead for which I already had a tender and the
finished dimensions were closer to the 4-8-4 boiler diameter.  I used a
reversed Sims 2-8-4 mechanism for the 4-8-4 and built new rods for it
to match C&O.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I still have the Arbour Allegheny tender kit altered but unfinished. 
It will go with another 2-10-4 if I ever get back to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have an Akane Allegheny for which I need a pilot and front porch
assembly if anyone should ever come across such a piece.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for all of the discussion everyone.  I really enjoyed reading
all the responses.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
=================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
erieberk wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Don being a C&O fan, and a fan of Allegheny engines, I was
just wondering if you've tried assembling an Arbour Models Allegheny. I
bought one when they first came out (about 20 years ago?) but never
tried putting it together yet -- has the correct spoked drivers,
incidentally. I understand that Arbour Kits are a bear to work on and
thought I'd ask about your experiences with them. Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /I thought Winton because I have a Winton Berkshire partial kit
and it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> has the same features as I saw on the 2-6-6-6 in the photos. I did
not 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> recognize the tender because I have never examined a 4-4-4-4
tender up 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> close and the only one I did actually see was made of aluminum
instead 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of brass. I thought the trucks might be Penn Line but never saw
those 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> up close before either, I just knew it did not belong with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Allegheny. I know Allegheny locomotives because I am a lover of
that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> locomotive along with the C&O, 2-10-4, 2-8-4 and 4-8-4 and I
know how 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> they are supposed to look.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ============ ========= ========= ========= =========
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Don, Winton was known for lack of detail, their models were
rather 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > plain but enjoyed for what they were. Sure 'nuff, they ARE
the wrong 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > drivers for C&O, they should have been spoked drivers if
the model 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > were to follow the prototype more precisely -- but they
weren't -- as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > this IS what Winton supplied with their Allegheny kits. Even
the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Virginian Allegheny engines had spoked drivers, at least the
ones that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I've seen, so I have no explanation for Winton's use of
Skullen Disk 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > drivers on this model but that point is really immaterial as
that's 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > what their kits had.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Right, as I previously stated, this is not the correct tender
for C&O. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > As for this (Jim's photo) model in question having two
8-wheel trucks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > on the tender, that's what the PRR T-7 tenders had. Your
description 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > of the C&O Allegheny tender having one 6-wheel truck and
one 8-wheel 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > truck, along with the rivet detail was probably seen by Jim
when he 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > checked out his present model on his display shelf, unless he
has the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > wrong tender with his present model. Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
<mailto:vintageHO% 40yahoogroups. com>, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > /It is a very early brass product because of the lack of
detail. It has
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > the wrong driver wheels for C&O. They should be
spoked drivers. The
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > tender has no rivet detail which is not correct for
C&O and it has 2
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > trucks with 8 wheels but the Alleghaney only had one 8
wheel truck on
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > the rear of the tender and a 6 wheel truck on the front
of the tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I still cannot identify the make but it is very early,
probably in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > '50's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > ============ ========= ========= ========= =======
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > /
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > [Attachment( s) <#TopText> from jim
heckard included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Here is a picture of the bottom. It is not my
engine yet. I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > am thinking of buying it from a friend. It is not a
Winton Allegheny
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > kit. It is some kind of fancy brass. I'm out of my
league on this 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > type
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > of brass. I don't know enough about types of
C&O Allegheny class
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > steam engines but kind of feel that this tender
goes with this class
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > The owner now tells me the engine came in the UMPCO
box and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > probably doesn't go with it. (I ask what writing on
end of box) I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > think UMPCO only made associated HO parts, not
complete engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > The price is definitely right but I want to know
what it is and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > who made it. Thanks for your reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11160
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: wanted
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim, Looks like plans are off for Hamburg this Sunday as a family gathering has shaped up for early Sunday afternoon and no fun in rushing back after only a brief time there, so will ask for a rain check, as I would like to say "Hi" in person sometime and see the collection.  Thanks again.  W Jay W.    
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         If you go to the Hamburg train show you are only 45 minutes from where I live further north on Route 61, last 4 miles Rte 924. Welcome if time available.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 9:02 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: wanted
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Hi Jim, Don't frequently see those in any road name, but will keep an eye out. Hopefuly going to the large Hamburg, PA show this Sunday. W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > I am looking to buy a Lindberg HO SW-1 / SW 600 FACTORY painted Illinois Central Switcher. Box does not matter. If you have one or know of one contact me off site at jimheck@ with price.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11161
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: International CNJ Caboose, other cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Ray F. W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The more I explore the vast array of International's imported models, the more interesting it is.  Plus they almost never imported the same model more than one time, as each successive run seems different, perhaps using a different model shop or different group of model builders in Japan. I have never seen one of the NY Central cabooses either.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have an assembled cast metal ribbed hopper, seems factory painted oxide red with their "Kupeze" couplers in an oiginal, but unmarked box that seems to fit their car illustrations.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Only have two boxcars, one the familiar International flat box kit that copied the Athearn and Globe format of seperate sides and ends; and a boxed, assembled Erie boxcar, but the parts patterned after Varney, built from two stamped "L" side and end sections. That box label has no mfr name, though so not sure if an International import. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Same goes for an unboxed all brass high side gondola I was told was a very early Tenshodo.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have always wondered if any "New One" items came in through International, or were they purely a competing line brought in by GHC and/or Polks?  I have an old-time, formerly assembled, passenger car that is almost identical to International's cast metal sided ones, but mine has (warped) tenite(?) plastic sides, with "New One" cast on the back of the sides.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Ps. thanks for the note on page #'s, will double check those when I list them next time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Jay,  Nice find!  I happen to enjoy International Model Products (IMP) and have an extensive collection of them, including 2 of these CNJ cabooses -- and one UP caboose.  Many of IMP's  cars came as kits only (in the small flat boxes), and many others were "Kustom-Bilts " (packed in these large unique "alligator finish" boxes).  I haven't gone up to the H0Seeker site, but just wanted to point out for anyone having this 1956 IMP catalog, that the attachments you've included are found on page 23 (not 19), so somebody on that site screwed up somehow.  It's not like my catalog is misprinted either, as I've somehow acquired two of them and they both have these caboose on page 23 at the bottom of a listing of other Kustom-Bilt models.  Just an incidental, but somebody may get confused, not finding it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> You'll note that IMP also offered a factory painted (but unlettered, just like the CNJ model) NYC caboose, less trucks -- as is seen included with one of your attachments in the text to the right.  This was the first year this NYC model was offered as all the previous IMP catalogs I have do not show this.  I don't own this caboose though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Also made by IMP a bit later, was a C&GW (Chicago Great Western) caboose in sheet brass similar to what you remembered being offered later and were talking about with Jim Waterman.  These came factory assembled though, and were unpainted.  Advertised as part of many IMP/Takara sell sheets I have, only this sheet does not have "Takara" (only International Models, Inc.), so it's possible that this was also made for IMP by someone else.  Ray F. W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I just acquired this International CNJ (Central RR of New Jersey) Caboose via eBay.  These models were factory assembled and painted, constructed of separate thin-wall die cast metal sides and ends, sheet metal roofs with individually applied ribs, wood floor (Grooved on the underside similar to Red Ball), with die-cast underframe, turned brass stack and cupola marker. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > The model, including the end ladders being slightly canted inward above the belt railing is correct as to CNJ practice, although the marker lamps centered on the cupola were later removed and the smoke jack modified.  Curiously, the smoke-jack turning is very long and finished with a sharp point so it could be stuck into the soft wood floor for a solid mount. (It needs to be glued, LOL!) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Besides having its original box, my model has the rice paper "JAPAN" label on the underside, confirming it was factory painted.  An excerpt from page 19 of the 1956 International Catalog, on HOSeeker.org is attached for reference. (For those that have trouble seeing the attachments here, I have also included them in Plainsman's Picks photo album, the last entry.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Many manufacturers did not do first hand research for their models and often used the Model Railroader Cyclopedia as their source. It seems that International was no exception, so I checked and located  the CNJ caboose plans in the 1942 edition that my dad had, and it is listed as being in other editions as well.  Plans originally appeared in the August 1939 issue of MR, drawn by Frank Taylor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > To my knowledge, this is the only accurate factory assembled and painted model of a CNJ wood caboose in HO, although printed card side kits were offered by Lehigh in the late 1940's, craftsman style kits were available from Robert Fischer's Gingerbread Stop shop circa 1980 and today there are laser-cut kits from Bethlehem Car Works.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > It is great to find a vintage model accurate to one of the prototype roads I mode!  Some of these cabooses operated into the 1970's, although most received plywood sheeting over the sides.  All it needs is the proper Miss Liberty herald and car number, lettering.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11162
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Blue Line roof vents
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Richard W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Those Blue Line Streamliner vents look very similar to ones I have on a older Kasiner/Herkimer car, but cast in metal. Herkimer still sells parts, but in groups by car type, so you might ask if you can buy them seperately.  They had a booth at the NMRA show in Hartford. http://www.okengines.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The family maintains a museum of all their vintage HO models (and OK model airplane engines)that may be seen by calling a week or two ahead (area near the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hello- I've recently built some old Blue Line 85' passenger car kits. However one type of plastic roof vent was unusable (the plastic had pulverized!). I've put some illustrations of this vent in an Album titled Blue Line roof vents (I can't figure out how to put the illustrations directly onto this post). Does anyone know of a source for replacement vents? I've already gone through the Walthers online catalog and looked at those vents that had illustrations. I also emailed a Canadian outfit, Great Western Passenger Car Details, but received no reply. Thanks for your help- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11163
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      As I remember the O Scale version--it had Stephenson valve gear, so all that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
shows is a small crank above the frame and a rod to the valve chest. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Probably PSC/Kemtron  parts would do.  As to the other "connecting rods"  if 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
you mean the main rods, again PSC may have something usable.  Side rods, you 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
may be on your own to make them.  Spacing of crankpin holes is critical.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Brent Buckley" <buckley37@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 3:20 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Friend and others,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Could anybody please tell me where I would obtain connecting rods and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> valve gear for the above ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Many Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brent Buckley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Manchester
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> England
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
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No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11164
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
I'm sending these pictures of pictures of  what are three Allegheny's 
my friend in California owns. I cut the top picture off as it was of the 
"normal" Winton Allegheny. The second picture he describes as a Winton 
Allegheny with spoked drivers which is the type it should have.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           It is the third picture 
that I am asking about. This is an brass Allegheny with Lost Wax Castings. 
Friend calls describes it as  3rd version Winton.   Could it 
be the Ma Ra version ????    I see it has spoked drivers on it. 
Missing lead and trailing trucks.  Does anyone have the Ma Ra version even 
if not complete to verify ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11165
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: International / New One ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
      I can't answer your question about International 
producing items to be sold under the New One Model label but maybe this might 
help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            This is a brass ( 
Yes brass. I'm told someone used gun bluing to cover / hid the brass. Dumb ) 
2-8-0 Camelback sold by Polks Hobby under the Aristo Craft name. The important 
part for you is that the tender bottom is stamped New One Model. Hope you can 
see by the picture. This item had the original plans and nothing on it says by 
who. It came in a light blue box with a flip type lid that has some kind of red 
cardboard inside. This is not material line like the cast New One steam came in. 
The only writing on the box is "Made in Japan". No writing or stickers on the 
side of the box.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           I don't know all the 
International brass steam but perhaps if you can recognize this engine as made 
by them and stamped New One it will answer the question you pose.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim 
H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11166
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: International / New One  "Dickson Hog"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks, that clears things up in my mind, as it seems to me now that New One was clearly a manufacturer's name, not an individual United States importer's brand name.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Incidentally, that New One locomotive of yours has always been one of my favorites as I like the camelbacks that have their cabs well forward of the center line. That put the engineer almost in the same location as in many later day diesel road switchers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The prototype was built in Scranton's Dickson Locomotive Works that became part of Alco around the turn of the Twentieth Century and it was knicknamed and advertised in the model press as the "Dickson Hog."  Hal Carstens mentioned that model a number of times in his columns.  The model was reviewed in the October 1962 RMC, p.22.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Dickson factory building still stands and part of it may be seen in the very quick introductory shot of Scranton shown each week at the beginning of the TV comedy show, "The Office."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                I can't answer your question about International producing items to be sold under the New One Model label but maybe this might help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       This is a brass ( Yes brass. I'm told someone used gun bluing to cover / hid the brass. Dumb ) 2-8-0 Camelback sold by Polks Hobby under the Aristo Craft name. The important part for you is that the tender bottom is stamped New One Model. Hope you can see by the picture. This item had the original plans and nothing on it says by who. It came in a light blue box with a flip type lid that has some kind of red cardboard inside. This is not material line like the cast New One steam came in. The only writing on the box is "Made in Japan". No writing or stickers on the side of the box.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      I don't know all the International brass steam but perhaps if you can recognize this engine as made by them and stamped New One it will answer the question you pose.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11167
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,  I'm not at all sure what you're trying to say, and am wondering how you can disagree with my stating that the photo you supplied of the bottom of the Winton Allegheny you are buying is identical to my built-up Winton Allegheny, when you've never seen my engine. I don't understand your statement.  The bottom of my engine IS identical to the photo you showed of the bottom of the Allegheny in question.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Not only that, but my drivers IDENTICALLY MATCH those of the Allegheny in question -- and mine IS a Winton.  As your Scullen Disk drivers are different than my Scullen Disk drivers, I suspect that Winton changed them at some point; perhaps you have Winton's version #2.  As for other "slight" differences, realizing that these were kits, it must be remembered that the modelers may have assembled these engines in slightly different manners, each to his own taste or ease (for him) of assembly -- sometimes taking shortcuts and/or, not going precisely by the plans.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I've posted a number of messages on this model (Winton Allegheny), some noting some differences in materials or designs being used with particular versions.  I don't know if you've read them all, but if not, please read them all through.  As for your question on different materials, it does appear that Winton used two different metals in some of their parts, in different versions.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
What's to wonder about Sean's Winton Allegheny having "silver" (in appearance) main rods, side rods and valve gear?  My built-up Winton Allegheny has the same.  Just because yours came with brass rods and running gear does not mean that Sean's and my Allegheny's are not Wintons only because these parts on ours are not brass -- or that these parts on ours are not original Winton manufacture.  Again, I fail to see what you're trying to say.  No. I don't have brass rods and valve gear on mine like you have on yours, but this doesn't mean that my parts are not original.  This kind of reminds me of the Schraeder discussion; yours is not the only version that was made <g>.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Now, getting to the joiner (piece of shiney metal) between the front and rear driver sets, as I said, this was the ONLY part that was difference than mine -- mine not having this at all, as per the original plans.  I do realize that modelers used various means to help support the front set of drivers -- even remember a discussion here on this topic (and I believe possibly on this engine, unless we were talking about the Varney Yellowstone at that time), not too long ago with modelers improvising different ways of challenging this problem.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ---In VintageHO.yahoogroups.com, Jim Heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Ray W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     I thank everyone for there comments. I will be buying the engine no matter what it is. I must hold it in my hands to decide what it is.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     I'm sorry that  I must disagree about totally identical Winton Allegheny. Unless Winton used 2 types of Scullen disk drivers take notice to the detail differences on the sides of the drivers of both engines. I also see some other slight differences which could have come about from the builder. One is the framing ? around the front coupler. My engine has it soldered  on and the top is even with the other cross piece. The unknown engine looks like screws or rivets holding it on and the piece does not go as high up on the front piece it is connected too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    I see others but hard for me to type a good explanation. I do have to wonder about Sean's Winton Allegheny having tin or silver plated type materials for main ,side and valve gear. The parts for mine were all brass and were in the Winton unbuilt kit when I bought it. I know I had to make some copies of small pieces of the valve gear that were missing from sheet brass. What a pain that tedious job was. Did different models made at least at two different plants use different materials ? (Not talking about the Ma Ra version)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Talking about the piece on the bottom joining the two sets of drivers together, I would have to go over my plans and drawings for my engines. You know there are two different sets / drawings , each with a different address on them ?  If I remember right the original plans called for the front set of drivers to kind of hang loose when you pick up the engine (much like the Varney Yellowstone). One of the pictures of the unknown engine shows how the front set of drivers could really swing out from the boiler. That piece on the bottom, whether added or called for, was more a support for that front set since the only other support would be the coil spring for driving when picked up. I hope I have explained that it is able to be understood.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     To help mine I did modify the front set of drivers.I made a brass T that screwed into the underneath of the boiler. I then cut a slot the opposite way in the top of the set of drivers. I could then "hang" the front set from the boiler, still be articulated and provide good support for the weight of the front drivers when picked up while still allowing very easily to disassemble if something went wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     I know it is the wrong tender for the Winton. When I first looked at the photos for the unknown engine that tender caught my eye. I was wondering, not knowing the real thing, was it a tender for another type of C&O Allegheny( which I only knew because of the decals that could have been wrong). To quick to make snap judgment I should have asked seller for different pictures first. I didn't think the UMPCO box was right for the engine because I didn't know of them making complete engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     My first thought, upon seeing the first 3 pictures, was a "fancy"brass" engine that would be out of my league to ID. In a rush to ID it so I could buy it I should have spent more time, got more pictures and compared with mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      While I believe now it is basically a Winton Allegheny engine (not tender) I still believe some modification has taken place. Buying it and holding it in my hand will answer much. If it was / is "fancy" brass I would probably buy it for $ 65 even though it wouldn't fit in my collection. But if it is a Winton engine, either a variation by the manufacturer or modified by the builder, like that TV show "The Price Is Right"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                                           Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 7:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Jim, In matching this photo of the bottom of this Allegheny to that of my built up Winton, I find it to be an IDENTICAL MATCH, after looking everything over in detail -- including the engineering design of Winton's manufacture of all their compontents -- and that includes the perfect matching of the front and rear truck designs. There is only one thing that's different, and that's the short bright metal strap connecting the front and rear "engines" (driver sets), which looks like an add-on (my engine doesn't have that piece). I could check out the plans in my kit versions but I'm too lazy to as I'm convinced it's not necessary. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   I see you've since changed your mind about the make of this engine since stating it is not a Winton, and rightly so. This tender does not go with a C&O Allegheny though, as I pointed out in my previous post. Ray F.W
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   P.S.: If you decide not to take it, let me know and I'll buy it, (ROTFL). I'll even give you a $20 finders fee (LOL). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Here is a picture of the bottom. It is not my engine yet. I am thinking of buying it from a friend. It is not a Winton Allegheny kit. It is some kind of fancy brass. I'm out of my league on this type of brass. I don't know enough about types of C&O Allegheny class steam engines but kind of feel that this tender goes with this class of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > The owner now tells me the engine came in the UMPCO box and probably doesn't go with it. (I ask what writing on end of box) I think UMPCO only made associated HO parts, not complete engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > The price is definitely right but I want to know what it is and who made it. Thanks for your reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11168
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: My Winton
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,  Yes, it appears that Winton had more than one early-type version of their Allegheny.  I'd be curious as to the time-lines, but then, even their ads might not give any indications of materials changes and might not even indicate changes in design such as the different Scullen Disk drivers.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Ray W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     I just sent an email as I received yours. I think we are in agreement that Winton had variations and that is causing the confusion.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     I have seen the tenders for the Winton Allegheny sold separately and wanted to buy one to get the original 8 wheel rear truck (I'm using an Arbour for now ). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 10:02 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: My Winton
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Jim, Thanks for sending along those photos of your Winton Allegheny. I think they may help explain these Winton Allegheny's in general. For starters, ALL of the components of your Allegheny match my built-up Winton Allegheny IDENTICALLY in their engineering, except for those few features you pointed out -- such as the driver design and the running gear (main & side rods and valve gear). I would not be concerned about these minor incidentals as it appears Winton had changed their design and material over the years.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Up until now, I was reluctant about digging out my Winton Allegheny kit, which was previously buried under a bunch of other engine kits -- but which I found (had forgotten) was rearranged for better access when I dug out my two Schraeder GG-1's a while ago. So, now in comparing my built-up Winton Allegheny to the photo of the Allegheny model in question (not yours), I find my drivers to be identical. I do note that your Scullen Disk drivers are different, having heavier counterweights and larger but fewer "holes." You'll know that Winton changed their design of them over the years when I tell you that my later production CAST Winton Allegheny kit has SPOKED drivers -- pointing to changes in production runs.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   The other point you seemed to be a bit concerned about is the running gear. Just like Sean's Winton Allegheny, my built-up Winton Allegheny ALSO has aluminum main rods, side rods and valve gear. These pieces are silver in color and are not attracted to a magnet. I note your running gear is all brass. My Cast Winton Allegheny kit has brass main rods and aluminum side rods and valve gear -- except for the links and crossheads w/valve rods which are brass. So it appears that Winton had changed their composition of metal of these parts at least three different times from all aluminum, to all brass and finally to both aluminum and brass. I'm quite positive the Allegheny you're buying is a Winton and congrats on it, especially at the price you're getting it for. I've seen several Winton Allegheny tenders on eBay within the past year (Winton did sell them as separate kits, I have one), so you'll have to keep a watch for one. Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Don S, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > I am sending a number of close-ups of my Winton Allegheny, which I know from building were original in the kit, for your to compare with the pictures I have sent of the engine I want to buy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > While so many things are the same some others are not. One is the design on the side of the drivers. My Winton valve gear, main and side rods are brass while the ones on the other look to be a silver plated metal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > I have to buy now just to get it in my hands to compare.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11169
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Arbour Models Allegheny, was -- 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I've seen the Arbour Models Allegheny on eBay a number of times, although I can't recall what they went for.  Back when they were still being made, I also bought an Arbour Models Nickle Plate Road Berksire kit, and regret not getting the Arbour C&O Berkshire.  Haven't seen one of those on eBay, either.  I did buy two Arbour PRR J-2 (2-10-4) kits, but as I said, have yet to tried fooling with them.  Not exactly "vintage" but they are metal -- a material being discontinued in modeling except for imported brass.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /When they came out I was in a tough financial situation and never could 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> get to where I could buy one.  I did manage to find a tender kit by 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> itself so I bought it to convert to use with a 2-10-4 I was planning to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> build from Hobbyline Berk boilers.  I did build the boiler but made it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> into a 4-8-4 instead for which I already had a tender and the finished 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> dimensions were closer to the 4-8-4 boiler diameter.  I used a reversed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sims 2-8-4 mechanism for the 4-8-4 and built new rods for it to match C&O. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I still have the Arbour Allegheny tender kit altered but unfinished.  It 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> will go with another 2-10-4 if I ever get back to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have an Akane Allegheny for which I need a pilot and front porch 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> assembly if anyone should ever come across such a piece.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks for all of the discussion everyone.  I really enjoyed reading all 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the responses.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> =================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Don being a C&O fan, and a fan of Allegheny engines, I was just 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > wondering if you've tried assembling an Arbour Models Allegheny. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > bought one when they first came out (about 20 years ago?) but never 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > tried putting it together yet -- has the correct spoked drivers, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > incidentally. I understand that Arbour Kits are a bear to work on and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > thought I'd ask about your experiences with them. Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > /I thought Winton because I have a Winton Berkshire partial kit and it
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > has the same features as I saw on the 2-6-6-6 in the photos. I did not
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > recognize the tender because I have never examined a 4-4-4-4 tender up
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > close and the only one I did actually see was made of aluminum instead
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > of brass. I thought the trucks might be Penn Line but never saw those
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > up close before either, I just knew it did not belong with the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Allegheny. I know Allegheny locomotives because I am a lover of that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > locomotive along with the C&O, 2-10-4, 2-8-4 and 4-8-4 and I know how
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > they are supposed to look.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Thanks...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > ================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > /
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Don, Winton was known for lack of detail, their models were rather
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > plain but enjoyed for what they were. Sure 'nuff, they ARE the wrong
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > drivers for C&O, they should have been spoked drivers if the model
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > were to follow the prototype more precisely -- but they weren't -- as
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > this IS what Winton supplied with their Allegheny kits. Even the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Virginian Allegheny engines had spoked drivers, at least the ones 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > I've seen, so I have no explanation for Winton's use of Skullen Disk
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > drivers on this model but that point is really immaterial as that's
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > what their kits had.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Right, as I previously stated, this is not the correct tender for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > C&O.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > As for this (Jim's photo) model in question having two 8-wheel trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > on the tender, that's what the PRR T-7 tenders had. Your description
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > of the C&O Allegheny tender having one 6-wheel truck and one 8-wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > truck, along with the rivet detail was probably seen by Jim when he
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > checked out his present model on his display shelf, unless he has the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > wrong tender with his present model. Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > /It is a very early brass product because of the lack of detail. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > It has
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > the wrong driver wheels for C&O. They should be spoked drivers. The
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > tender has no rivet detail which is not correct for C&O and it has 2
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > trucks with 8 wheels but the Alleghaney only had one 8 wheel 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > truck on
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > the rear of the tender and a 6 wheel truck on the front of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > I still cannot identify the make but it is very early, probably 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > '50's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > ==============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > /
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > > Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > > Here is a picture of the bottom. It is not my engine yet. I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > > am thinking of buying it from a friend. It is not a Winton 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Allegheny
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > > kit. It is some kind of fancy brass. I'm out of my league on this
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > type
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > > of brass. I don't know enough about types of C&O Allegheny class
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > > steam engines but kind of feel that this tender goes with this 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > class
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > > of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > > The owner now tells me the engine came in the UMPCO box and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > > probably doesn't go with it. (I ask what writing on end of box) I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > > think UMPCO only made associated HO parts, not complete engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > > The price is definitely right but I want to know what it is and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > > who made it. Thanks for your reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11170
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                             I thought I 
said because there are difference in mine from others that there must have been 
many variations even in materials. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           As for the drivers MY 
engine has the same drivers as my Winton Berkshire and are the type shown 
in the large drawings from the San Leandro address. I thought Winton engines 
were totally brass.. Were there other types, sounds like there 
were.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Never say 
never.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 5:50 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, I'm not at all sure what you're trying to say, and am wondering how 
  you can disagree with my stating that the photo you supplied of the bottom of 
  the Winton Allegheny you are buying is identical to my built-up Winton 
  Allegheny, when you've never seen my engine. I don't understand your 
  statement. The bottom of my engine IS identical to the photo you showed of the 
  bottom of the Allegheny in question. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Not only that, but my drivers 
  IDENTICALLY MATCH those of the Allegheny in question -- and mine IS a Winton. 
  As your Scullen Disk drivers are different than my Scullen Disk drivers, I 
  suspect that Winton changed them at some point; perhaps you have Winton's 
  version #2. As for other "slight" differences, realizing that these were kits, 
  it must be remembered that the modelers may have assembled these engines in 
  slightly different manners, each to his own taste or ease (for him) of 
  assembly -- sometimes taking shortcuts and/or, not going precisely by the 
  plans.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I've posted a number of messages on this model (Winton 
  Allegheny), some noting some differences in materials or designs being used 
  with particular versions. I don't know if you've read them all, but if not, 
  please read them all through. As for your question on different materials, it 
  does appear that Winton used two different metals in some of their parts, in 
  different versions. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      What's to wonder about Sean's Winton Allegheny 
  having "silver" (in appearance) main rods, side rods and valve gear? My 
  built-up Winton Allegheny has the same. Just because yours came with brass 
  rods and running gear does not mean that Sean's and my Allegheny's are not 
  Wintons only because these parts on ours are not brass -- or that these parts 
  on ours are not original Winton manufacture. Again, I fail to see what you're 
  trying to say. No. I don't have brass rods and valve gear on mine like you 
  have on yours, but this doesn't mean that my parts are not original. This kind 
  of reminds me of the Schraeder discussion; yours is not the only version that 
  was made <g>.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Now, getting to the joiner (piece of shiney metal) 
  between the front and rear driver sets, as I said, this was the ONLY part that 
  was difference than mine -- mine not having this at all, as per the original 
  plans. I do realize that modelers used various means to help support the front 
  set of drivers -- even remember a discussion here on this topic (and I believe 
  possibly on this engine, unless we were talking about the Varney Yellowstone 
  at that time), not too long ago with modelers improvising different ways of 
  challenging this problem. Ray F.W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      ---In 
  VintageHO.yahoogrou ps.com, Jim Heckard" <jimheck@... > 
  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Ray W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I thank everyone for 
  there comments. I will be buying the engine no matter what it is. I must hold 
  it in my hands to decide what it is.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I'm sorry that I must 
  disagree about totally identical Winton Allegheny. Unless Winton used 2 types 
  of Scullen disk drivers take notice to the detail differences on the sides of 
  the drivers of both engines. I also see some other slight differences which 
  could have come about from the builder. One is the framing ? around the front 
  coupler. My engine has it soldered on and the top is even with the other cross 
  piece. The unknown engine looks like screws or rivets holding it on and the 
  piece does not go as high up on the front piece it is connected too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I see others but hard for me to type a good explanation. I do have to 
  wonder about Sean's Winton Allegheny having tin or silver plated type 
  materials for main ,side and valve gear. The parts for mine were all brass and 
  were in the Winton unbuilt kit when I bought it. I know I had to make some 
  copies of small pieces of the valve gear that were missing from sheet brass. 
  What a pain that tedious job was. Did different models made at least at two 
  different plants use different materials ? (Not talking about the Ma Ra 
  version)
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Talking about the piece on the bottom joining the 
  two sets of drivers together, I would have to go over my plans and drawings 
  for my engines. You know there are two different sets / drawings , each with a 
  different address on them ? If I remember right the original plans called for 
  the front set of drivers to kind of hang loose when you pick up the engine 
  (much like the Varney Yellowstone) . One of the pictures of the unknown 
  engine shows how the front set of drivers could really swing out from the 
  boiler. That piece on the bottom, whether added or called for, was more a 
  support for that front set since the only other support would be the coil 
  spring for driving when picked up. I hope I have explained that it is able to 
  be understood.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To help mine I did modify the front set of 
  drivers.I made a brass T that screwed into the underneath of the boiler. I 
  then cut a slot the opposite way in the top of the set of drivers. I could 
  then "hang" the front set from the boiler, still be articulated and provide 
  good support for the weight of the front drivers when picked up while still 
  allowing very easily to disassemble if something went wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  I know it is the wrong tender for the Winton. When I first looked at the 
  photos for the unknown engine that tender caught my eye. I was wondering, not 
  knowing the real thing, was it a tender for another type of C&O Allegheny( 
  which I only knew because of the decals that could have been wrong). To quick 
  to make snap judgment I should have asked seller for different pictures first. 
  I didn't think the UMPCO box was right for the engine because I didn't know of 
  them making complete engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > My first thought, upon seeing 
  the first 3 pictures, was a "fancy"brass" engine that would be out of my 
  league to ID. In a rush to ID it so I could buy it I should have spent more 
  time, got more pictures and compared with mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > While I 
  believe now it is basically a Winton Allegheny engine (not tender) I still 
  believe some modification has taken place. Buying it and holding it in my hand 
  will answer much. If it was / is "fancy" brass I would probably buy it for $ 
  65 even though it wouldn't fit in my collection. But if it is a Winton engine, 
  either a variation by the manufacturer or modified by the builder, like that 
  TV show "The Price Is Right"
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 7:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 
  2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim, In matching this photo of the bottom of 
  this Allegheny to that of my built up Winton, I find it to be an IDENTICAL 
  MATCH, after looking everything over in detail -- including the engineering 
  design of Winton's manufacture of all their compontents -- and that includes 
  the perfect matching of the front and rear truck designs. There is only one 
  thing that's different, and that's the short bright metal strap connecting the 
  front and rear "engines" (driver sets), which looks like an add-on (my engine 
  doesn't have that piece). I could check out the plans in my kit versions but 
  I'm too lazy to as I'm convinced it's not necessary. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I see 
  you've since changed your mind about the make of this engine since stating it 
  is not a Winton, and rightly so. This tender does not go with a C&O 
  Allegheny though, as I pointed out in my previous post. Ray F.W
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > P.S.: If you decide not to take it, let me know and I'll buy it, 
  (ROTFL). I'll even give you a $20 finders fee (LOL). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hi 
  Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Here is a picture of the bottom. It is not my 
  engine yet. I am thinking of buying it from a friend. It is not a Winton 
  Allegheny kit. It is some kind of fancy brass. I'm out of my league on this 
  type of brass. I don't know enough about types of C&O Allegheny class 
  steam engines but kind of feel that this tender goes with this class of 
  engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > The owner now tells me the engine came in 
  the UMPCO box and probably doesn't go with it. (I ask what writing on end of 
  box) I think UMPCO only made associated HO parts, not complete engines. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > The price is definitely right but I want to know 
  what it is and who made it. Thanks for your reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11171
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: International CNJ Caboose, other cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi W Jay W., Not exactly sure, but are you referring to the array of various kit and "Kustom Bilt" engines they offered when saying that that almost never imported the same model more than once?  This may have been so, but they did have catalogs, offering many of the same models year to year.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Many of their freight cars, especially the cast ones such as your ribbed hopper, were an excellent quality.  Yes, they were factory painted, but as with a number of other kits, came unlettered only.  As you said, many of their other kits were designed after Athearn, the design and construction was almost identical -- only the material was different (IMP used aluminum in place of Athearn's metal sides, ends and roof).  I also forget if they had a sub-roof (could check it fast if needed), as Athearn did, but they copied Athearn closer than they did Globe.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Your ERIE box car is not International; they never copied after Varney's style of construction (they used the Athearn style exclusively on those cars -- steel-sheathed box cars and reefers).  You may have a Varney car in that box, or it may be a Bowser -- which copied Varney back in the mid 1980's.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I think someone else already replied about New One -- it was not affiliated with IMP.  I recall seeing brass sheet freight cars made by Tenshodo, and while there was definitely some kind of affiliation between IMP and Tenshodo, these were never marketing as International.  They often used similar boxes though.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
While on the subject of passenger cars, IMP did have some nice ones  Their old time ones -- coach, combine, baggage and supply cars -- came either as built or kits, both ways factory painted, but they only offered the NYC passenger coach in the Harriman monitor roof standard passenger cars (circa 1930).  Still, wouldn't mind having some.   Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Ray F. W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The more I explore the vast array of International's imported models, the more interesting it is.  Plus they almost never imported the same model more than one time, as each successive run seems different, perhaps using a different model shop or different group of model builders in Japan. I have never seen one of the NY Central cabooses either.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have an assembled cast metal ribbed hopper, seems factory painted oxide red with their "Kupeze" couplers in an oiginal, but unmarked box that seems to fit their car illustrations.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Only have two boxcars, one the familiar International flat box kit that copied the Athearn and Globe format of seperate sides and ends; and a boxed, assembled Erie boxcar, but the parts patterned after Varney, built from two stamped "L" side and end sections. That box label has no mfr name, though so not sure if an International import. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Same goes for an unboxed all brass high side gondola I was told was a very early Tenshodo.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have always wondered if any "New One" items came in through International, or were they purely a competing line brought in by GHC and/or Polks?  I have an old-time, formerly assembled, passenger car that is almost identical to International's cast metal sided ones, but mine has (warped) tenite(?) plastic sides, with "New One" cast on the back of the sides.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Ps. thanks for the note on page #'s, will double check those when I list them next time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi Jay,  Nice find!  I happen to enjoy International Model Products (IMP) and have an extensive collection of them, including 2 of these CNJ cabooses -- and one UP caboose.  Many of IMP's  cars came as kits only (in the small flat boxes), and many others were "Kustom-Bilts " (packed in these large unique "alligator finish" boxes).  I haven't gone up to the H0Seeker site, but just wanted to point out for anyone having this 1956 IMP catalog, that the attachments you've included are found on page 23 (not 19), so somebody on that site screwed up somehow.  It's not like my catalog is misprinted either, as I've somehow acquired two of them and they both have these caboose on page 23 at the bottom of a listing of other Kustom-Bilt models.  Just an incidental, but somebody may get confused, not finding it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > You'll note that IMP also offered a factory painted (but unlettered, just like the CNJ model) NYC caboose, less trucks -- as is seen included with one of your attachments in the text to the right.  This was the first year this NYC model was offered as all the previous IMP catalogs I have do not show this.  I don't own this caboose though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Also made by IMP a bit later, was a C&GW (Chicago Great Western) caboose in sheet brass similar to what you remembered being offered later and were talking about with Jim Waterman.  These came factory assembled though, and were unpainted.  Advertised as part of many IMP/Takara sell sheets I have, only this sheet does not have "Takara" (only International Models, Inc.), so it's possible that this was also made for IMP by someone else.  Ray F. W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I just acquired this International CNJ (Central RR of New Jersey) Caboose via eBay.  These models were factory assembled and painted, constructed of separate thin-wall die cast metal sides and ends, sheet metal roofs with individually applied ribs, wood floor (Grooved on the underside similar to Red Ball), with die-cast underframe, turned brass stack and cupola marker. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > The model, including the end ladders being slightly canted inward above the belt railing is correct as to CNJ practice, although the marker lamps centered on the cupola were later removed and the smoke jack modified.  Curiously, the smoke-jack turning is very long and finished with a sharp point so it could be stuck into the soft wood floor for a solid mount. (It needs to be glued, LOL!) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Besides having its original box, my model has the rice paper "JAPAN" label on the underside, confirming it was factory painted.  An excerpt from page 19 of the 1956 International Catalog, on HOSeeker.org is attached for reference. (For those that have trouble seeing the attachments here, I have also included them in Plainsman's Picks photo album, the last entry.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Many manufacturers did not do first hand research for their models and often used the Model Railroader Cyclopedia as their source. It seems that International was no exception, so I checked and located  the CNJ caboose plans in the 1942 edition that my dad had, and it is listed as being in other editions as well.  Plans originally appeared in the August 1939 issue of MR, drawn by Frank Taylor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > To my knowledge, this is the only accurate factory assembled and painted model of a CNJ wood caboose in HO, although printed card side kits were offered by Lehigh in the late 1940's, craftsman style kits were available from Robert Fischer's Gingerbread Stop shop circa 1980 and today there are laser-cut kits from Bethlehem Car Works.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > It is great to find a vintage model accurate to one of the prototype roads I mode!  Some of these cabooses operated into the 1970's, although most received plywood sheeting over the sides.  All it needs is the proper Miss Liberty herald and car number, lettering.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11172
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                      You might have to contact some modeling buds with machining  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
background about how to make those rods. Those same parts have been  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
reliably made by hand since the beginning of model railroading. You  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
just need to study how they did it. It's mostly with simple hand  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
tools, with your option to use a powered drill or modestly sized  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
drill-press.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I hope you do find the factory parts. But if you don't find those,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
you still can finish the model.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Here is an excellent how-to of the classic methods........ There are  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
other, later books that build on this one. It's still a must-have  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
reference that is common, had about 30 editions, and is found for  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
very low prices through the book-buy sites like Abebooks.com. You can  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
get one for 1-3 pounds-sterling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Miniature Locomotive Construction
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Ahern, John H.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Bookseller:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
AwesomeBooks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
(Berkshire, BE, United Kingdom)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Bookseller Rating:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11173
						From: Brent Buckley
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thank you for the reply.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Somebody suggested Bowser, but cannot help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If you can help, thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Be in touch
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brent
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I might have some, I will have to check.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I know I tore one apart some time ago. I think I saved the entire valve gear assembly.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Brent Buckley <buckley37@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 6:20:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Friend and others,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Could anybody please tell me where I would obtain connecting rods and valve gear for the above ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Many Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brent Buckley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Manchester
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> England
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11174
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
The rods you want...  HO or O???
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      You might have to contact some modeling buds with machining 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
background about how to make those rods. Those same parts have been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
reliably made by hand since the beginning of model railroading. You 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
just need to study how they did it. It's mostly with simple hand 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
tools, with your option to use a powered drill or modestly sized 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
drill-press.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I hope you do find the factory parts. But if you don't find those, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
you still can finish the model.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Here is an excellent how-to of the classic methods..... ... There
are 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
other, later books that build on this one. It's still a must-have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
reference that is common, had about 30 editions, and is found for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
very low prices through the book-buy sites like Abebooks.com. You can 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
get one for 1-3 pounds-sterling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Miniature Locomotive Construction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Ahern, John H.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Bookseller:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
AwesomeBooks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
(Berkshire, BE, United Kingdom)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Bookseller Rating:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Book Price:
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
US$ 2.96
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Quantity Available:: 1
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Bibliographic Details
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
ISBN 10: 0853440751
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
ISBN 13: 9780853440758
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Publisher: 2-30
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Binding: Hardcover
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Book Condition: used-good
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Description:
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Miniature Locomotive Construction GREAT BOOK IN GOOD OR BETTER
CONDITION, NORMALLY SENT SAME DAY FROM WAREHOUSE. Bookseller Inventory
# W2-NB-12D14-5974
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya'
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee Wi, USA
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
On Jul 24, 2009, at 5:20 AM, Brent Buckley wrote:
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Friend and others,
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Could anybody please tell me where I would obtain connecting rods and
valve gear for the above ?
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Many Thanks
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brent Buckley
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Manchester
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
England
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11175
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,  My Winton Allegheny kit is identical to the one in your top photo here, including the same style spoked drivers, same front and rear trucks, in fact all lost-wax brass castings -- truck side-frames included as such.  Only one "slight" difference though -- mine has valve gear (I see it's missing on this engine).  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You'll note that while the Allegheny in the bottom photo (third engine) also has spoked drivers, the counterweights are of a different style -- if you look closely.  If this is a Winton, and I have no way of knowing if it is, then they must have changed driver styles at least a fourth time during their manufacturing era (and who knows what else they changed along the way).  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>              I'm sending these pictures of pictures of  what are three Allegheny's my friend in California owns. I cut the top picture off as it was of the "normal" Winton Allegheny. The second picture he describes as a Winton Allegheny with spoked drivers which is the type it should have.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      It is the third picture that I am asking about. This is an brass Allegheny with Lost Wax Castings. Friend calls describes it as  3rd version Winton.   Could it be the Ma Ra version ????    I see it has spoked drivers on it. Missing lead and trailing trucks.  Does anyone have the Ma Ra version even if not complete to verify ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11176
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim,  Before we get confused even more, I was comparing my built-up engine with the photos of the engine you are buying, not with your engine -- and I said mine is the same, including the drivers.  I did notice your drivers are different than mine and different than the photos of the engine you're buying.  So, yes, there were other types of Winton engines -- that weren't TOTALLY brass.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        I thought I said because there are difference in mine from others that there must have been many variations even in materials. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      As for the drivers MY engine has the same drivers as my Winton Berkshire and are the type shown in the large drawings from the San Leandro address. I thought Winton engines were totally brass.. Were there other types, sounds like there were.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Never say never.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 5:50 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Jim, I'm not at all sure what you're trying to say, and am wondering how you can disagree with my stating that the photo you supplied of the bottom of the Winton Allegheny you are buying is identical to my built-up Winton Allegheny, when you've never seen my engine. I don't understand your statement. The bottom of my engine IS identical to the photo you showed of the bottom of the Allegheny in question. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Not only that, but my drivers IDENTICALLY MATCH those of the Allegheny in question -- and mine IS a Winton. As your Scullen Disk drivers are different than my Scullen Disk drivers, I suspect that Winton changed them at some point; perhaps you have Winton's version #2. As for other "slight" differences, realizing that these were kits, it must be remembered that the modelers may have assembled these engines in slightly different manners, each to his own taste or ease (for him) of assembly -- sometimes taking shortcuts and/or, not going precisely by the plans.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   I've posted a number of messages on this model (Winton Allegheny), some noting some differences in materials or designs being used with particular versions. I don't know if you've read them all, but if not, please read them all through. As for your question on different materials, it does appear that Winton used two different metals in some of their parts, in different versions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   What's to wonder about Sean's Winton Allegheny having "silver" (in appearance) main rods, side rods and valve gear? My built-up Winton Allegheny has the same. Just because yours came with brass rods and running gear does not mean that Sean's and my Allegheny's are not Wintons only because these parts on ours are not brass -- or that these parts on ours are not original Winton manufacture. Again, I fail to see what you're trying to say. No. I don't have brass rods and valve gear on mine like you have on yours, but this doesn't mean that my parts are not original. This kind of reminds me of the Schraeder discussion; yours is not the only version that was made <g>.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Now, getting to the joiner (piece of shiney metal) between the front and rear driver sets, as I said, this was the ONLY part that was difference than mine -- mine not having this at all, as per the original plans. I do realize that modelers used various means to help support the front set of drivers -- even remember a discussion here on this topic (and I believe possibly on this engine, unless we were talking about the Varney Yellowstone at that time), not too long ago with modelers improvising different ways of challenging this problem. Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ---In VintageHO.yahoogroups.com, Jim Heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Hi Ray W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > I thank everyone for there comments. I will be buying the engine no matter what it is. I must hold it in my hands to decide what it is.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > I'm sorry that I must disagree about totally identical Winton Allegheny. Unless Winton used 2 types of Scullen disk drivers take notice to the detail differences on the sides of the drivers of both engines. I also see some other slight differences which could have come about from the builder. One is the framing ? around the front coupler. My engine has it soldered on and the top is even with the other cross piece. The unknown engine looks like screws or rivets holding it on and the piece does not go as high up on the front piece it is connected too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > I see others but hard for me to type a good explanation. I do have to wonder about Sean's Winton Allegheny having tin or silver plated type materials for main ,side and valve gear. The parts for mine were all brass and were in the Winton unbuilt kit when I bought it. I know I had to make some copies of small pieces of the valve gear that were missing from sheet brass. What a pain that tedious job was. Did different models made at least at two different plants use different materials ? (Not talking about the Ma Ra version)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Talking about the piece on the bottom joining the two sets of drivers together, I would have to go over my plans and drawings for my engines. You know there are two different sets / drawings , each with a different address on them ? If I remember right the original plans called for the front set of drivers to kind of hang loose when you pick up the engine (much like the Varney Yellowstone). One of the pictures of the unknown engine shows how the front set of drivers could really swing out from the boiler. That piece on the bottom, whether added or called for, was more a support for that front set since the only other support would be the coil spring for driving when picked up. I hope I have explained that it is able to be understood.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > To help mine I did modify the front set of drivers.I made a brass T that screwed into the underneath of the boiler. I then cut a slot the opposite way in the top of the set of drivers. I could then "hang" the front set from the boiler, still be articulated and provide good support for the weight of the front drivers when picked up while still allowing very easily to disassemble if something went wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > I know it is the wrong tender for the Winton. When I first looked at the photos for the unknown engine that tender caught my eye. I was wondering, not knowing the real thing, was it a tender for another type of C&O Allegheny( which I only knew because of the decals that could have been wrong). To quick to make snap judgment I should have asked seller for different pictures first. I didn't think the UMPCO box was right for the engine because I didn't know of them making complete engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > My first thought, upon seeing the first 3 pictures, was a "fancy"brass" engine that would be out of my league to ID. In a rush to ID it so I could buy it I should have spent more time, got more pictures and compared with mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > While I believe now it is basically a Winton Allegheny engine (not tender) I still believe some modification has taken place. Buying it and holding it in my hand will answer much. If it was / is "fancy" brass I would probably buy it for $ 65 even though it wouldn't fit in my collection. But if it is a Winton engine, either a variation by the manufacturer or modified by the builder, like that TV show "The Price Is Right"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 7:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Jim, In matching this photo of the bottom of this Allegheny to that of my built up Winton, I find it to be an IDENTICAL MATCH, after looking everything over in detail -- including the engineering design of Winton's manufacture of all their compontents -- and that includes the perfect matching of the front and rear truck designs. There is only one thing that's different, and that's the short bright metal strap connecting the front and rear "engines" (driver sets), which looks like an add-on (my engine doesn't have that piece). I could check out the plans in my kit versions but I'm too lazy to as I'm convinced it's not necessary. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > I see you've since changed your mind about the make of this engine since stating it is not a Winton, and rightly so. This tender does not go with a C&O Allegheny though, as I pointed out in my previous post. Ray F.W
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > P.S.: If you decide not to take it, let me know and I'll buy it, (ROTFL). I'll even give you a $20 finders fee (LOL). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > > Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > > Here is a picture of the bottom. It is not my engine yet. I am thinking of buying it from a friend. It is not a Winton Allegheny kit. It is some kind of fancy brass. I'm out of my league on this type of brass. I don't know enough about types of C&O Allegheny class steam engines but kind of feel that this tender goes with this class of engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > > The owner now tells me the engine came in the UMPCO box and probably doesn't go with it. (I ask what writing on end of box) I think UMPCO only made associated HO parts, not complete engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > > The price is definitely right but I want to know what it is and who made it. Thanks for your reply
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11177
						From: Lennard Stewart
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Calling Mike Bauers
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  
  

 
Lennard Stewart wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
               Mike I sent you an off list email. it may have went to
your junk .  Lennard Stewart in East Texas
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Lennard Stewart
Owner of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1-87scalevehiclesales/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11178
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: International CNJ Caboose, other cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I've got one of the NYC coaches and it was a VERY nice kit.  Went together 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
well and makes an attractive model.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 6:05 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: International CNJ Caboose, other cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Hi W Jay W., Not exactly sure, but are you referring to the array of various 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
kit and "Kustom Bilt" engines they offered when saying that that almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
never imported the same model more than once?  This may have been so, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
they did have catalogs, offering many of the same models year to year.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Many of their freight cars, especially the cast ones such as your ribbed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
hopper, were an excellent quality.  Yes, they were factory painted, but as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
with a number of other kits, came unlettered only.  As you said, many of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
their other kits were designed after Athearn, the design and construction 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
was almost identical -- only the material was different (IMP used aluminum 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
in place of Athearn's metal sides, ends and roof).  I also forget if they 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
had a sub-roof (could check it fast if needed), as Athearn did, but they 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
copied Athearn closer than they did Globe.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Your ERIE box car is not International; they never copied after Varney's 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
style of construction (they used the Athearn style exclusively on those 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
cars -- steel-sheathed box cars and reefers).  You may have a Varney car in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
that box, or it may be a Bowser -- which copied Varney back in the mid 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
1980's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I think someone else already replied about New One -- it was not affiliated 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
with IMP.  I recall seeing brass sheet freight cars made by Tenshodo, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
while there was definitely some kind of affiliation between IMP and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Tenshodo, these were never marketing as International.  They often used 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
similar boxes though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
While on the subject of passenger cars, IMP did have some nice ones  Their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
old time ones -- coach, combine, baggage and supply cars -- came either as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
built or kits, both ways factory painted, but they only offered the NYC 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
passenger coach in the Harriman monitor roof standard passenger cars (circa 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
1930).  Still, wouldn't mind having some.   Ray F.W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11179
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                               Oh 
well I hate to keep this going but I must. If the engine you have a 
kit of is the same as the top picture of the two I just sent from my friend in 
California and it has all "lost wax brass castings" when did Winton (not Ma Ra ) 
start using lost wax castings with their engines. They prided themselves with 
actually having a motto to the effect that their engines 
had NO castings or am I dreaming that ? Yes Ma Ra used lost wax 
castings.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         As for the number of runs and or 
variations I don't really know but who does. Is there any literature, 
catalogs or the like. Yes I know that Winton, not sure if same owner, had two 
different factories but it's hard for me to believe so many variations (4) in 
such a short time of production, but again anything possible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        By the way I have not seen your engine 
but you stated it was 100% the same , except for that connecting bar between the 
sets of drivers, when you compared it with the pictures I first sent of the 
engine I am  buying. Therefore I have seen an exact copy of your 
engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          As for multiple runs / 
variations and which came first. Maybe I read your email wrong but I think you 
listed 3 different types and what came first. Unless I see positive proof I feel 
my engine, all stamped brass parts with no castings and all brass with 
Scullen drivers was the first run. That was what Winton based his engines 
on. As to what followed any ones guess.Since you, Sean, and the seller of the 
engine I am buying are the SAME I have to keep my mind open.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I will NOT disagree 
that Sean, You or anyone else have variations that were factory oriented since I 
have no proof either. Again never say never. We both have found that out 
discussing many things like the brass /bronze tender Varney sold and where Adams 
and Sons played a part.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Just like this 
Varney tender example I think we are at an impasse as to a definitive answer 
without a lot more info.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 7:32 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ma Ra Allegheny 
  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, My Winton Allegheny kit is identical to the one in your top photo 
  here, including the same style spoked drivers, same front and rear trucks, in 
  fact all lost-wax brass castings -- truck side-frames included as such. Only 
  one "slight" difference though -- mine has valve gear (I see it's missing on 
  this engine). 

                                                                                                                                                                                      You'll note that while the Allegheny in the bottom photo 
  (third engine) also has spoked drivers, the counterweights are of a different 
  style -- if you look closely. If this is a Winton, and I have no way of 
  knowing if it is, then they must have changed driver styles at least a fourth 
  time during their manufacturing era (and who knows what else they changed 
  along the way). Ray F.W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I'm sending 
  these pictures of pictures of what are three Allegheny's my friend in 
  California owns. I cut the top picture off as it was of the "normal" Winton 
  Allegheny. The second picture he describes as a Winton Allegheny with spoked 
  drivers which is the type it should have.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > It is the third 
  picture that I am asking about. This is an brass Allegheny with Lost Wax 
  Castings. Friend calls describes it as 3rd version Winton. Could it be the Ma 
  Ra version ???? I see it has spoked drivers on it. Missing lead and trailing 
  trucks. Does anyone have the Ma Ra version even if not complete to verify 
  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11180
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Early brass/cast Mantua for sale
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Take a look at this on ebay. Item # 150360740073
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11181
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 7/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
There is a Winton Allegheny on Ebay ...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                      ==========================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               Oh well I hate to keep this
going but I must. If the engine you have a kit of is the same as the
top picture of the two I just sent from my friend in California and it
has all "lost wax brass castings" when did Winton (not Ma Ra ) start
using lost wax castings with their engines. They prided themselves with
actually having a motto to the effect that their engines
had NO castings or am I dreaming that ? Yes Ma Ra used lost wax
castings.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         As for the number of runs and or
variations I don't really know but who does. Is there any literature,
catalogs or the like. Yes I know that Winton, not sure if same owner,
had two different factories but it's hard for me to believe so many
variations (4) in such a short time of production, but again anything
possible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        By the way I have not seen your
engine but you stated it was 100% the same , except for that connecting
bar between the sets of drivers, when you compared it with the pictures
I first sent of the engine I am  buying. Therefore I have seen an exact
copy of your engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          As for multiple runs /
variations and which came first. Maybe I read your email wrong but I
think you listed 3 different types and what came first. Unless I see
positive proof I feel my engine, all stamped brass parts with no
castings and all brass with Scullen drivers was the first run. That was
what Winton based his engines on. As to what followed any ones
guess.Since you, Sean, and the seller of the engine I am buying are the
SAME I have to keep my mind open.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            I will NOT disagree that Sean,
You or anyone else have variations that were factory oriented since I
have no proof either. Again never say never. We both have found that
out discussing many things like the brass /bronze tender Varney sold
and where Adams and Sons played a part.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            Just like this Varney tender
example I think we are at an impasse as to a definitive answer without
a lot more info.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
    erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent:
Friday, July 24, 2009 7:32 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject:
[vintageHO] Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
     
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, My Winton Allegheny kit is identical to the one in your top
photo here, including the same style spoked drivers, same front and
rear trucks, in fact all lost-wax brass castings -- truck side-frames
included as such. Only one "slight" difference though -- mine has valve
gear (I see it's missing on this engine). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
You'll note that while the Allegheny in the bottom photo (third engine)
also has spoked drivers, the counterweights are of a different style --
if you look closely. If this is a Winton, and I have no way of knowing
if it is, then they must have changed driver styles at least a fourth
time during their manufacturing era (and who knows what else they
changed along the way). Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I'm sending these pictures of pictures of what are three
Allegheny's my friend in California owns. I cut the top picture off as
it was of the "normal" Winton Allegheny. The second picture he
describes as a Winton Allegheny with spoked drivers which is the type
it should have.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It is the third picture that I am asking about. This is an brass
Allegheny with Lost Wax Castings. Friend calls describes it as 3rd
version Winton. Could it be the Ma Ra version ???? I see it has spoked
drivers on it. Missing lead and trailing trucks. Does anyone have the
Ma Ra version even if not complete to verify ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11182
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Help Identifying
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm about to place these three vintage cars on eBay. They are all 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
old craftsman pieces with no identifying names or logos. Just wondering 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
if anybody can tell by the reporting marks who the manufacturers might be.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I'm planning to put these up for sale as a single set.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
"Just a little touch of madness will help to keep you alive."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    -Robin Williams
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11183
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Which way do these hoppers face?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                      I am getting ready to paint and install the hopper discharge chutes and the instructions do not show which way they face.  Give me a direction and I will consider it correct.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11184
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Stuff I want to get rid of
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have posted some photos of parts and pieces that I no longer see any use in keeping.  Shipping only to a good home.  Let me know if you have any interest in any of the items.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11185
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Stuff I want to get rid of
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Oh yeah, might help if I told you where the pictures were.  They are in the NVRR49 folder.  Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have posted some photos of parts and pieces that I no longer see any use in keeping.  Shipping only to a good home.  Let me know if you have any interest in any of the items.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11186
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: International Models & other sheet metal sided boxcars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I should have used more precise wording in my statement regarding International Models, perhaps this: "that each run of even the same prototype seems to have differed in either minor or major ways, even if the same craftsmen's shop was used."  Examples I know about first hand are the various different models of the PRR O1 locomotives - made in at least three or four different runs that serveral of us discussed last winter; the PRR P5A modified, that had at least two visibly different runs and the versions of those CNJ & UP cabooses we just discussed.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Last evening, I brought out my collection of boxed metal sided Erie boxcar models and kits (International, unidentified, possibly Tenshodo, Globe, Athearn and Varney) and looked at each closely, side by side. My reference to Athearn and Globe being similar was intended only in regard to the overall construction method, each being made of of separate side, end and roof stampings, unlike Varney that had each side and end stamped as one piece and formed into the "L" shape. Athearn and Globe had many differences bewteen them as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      As you said, the International version follows the Athearn construction and assembly most closely. However, it also follows the Globe method of attaching the sides to the floor in that each side has two lower tabs to be bent under and screwed to the wood floor. Like Globe, International kits also lack a formed inner sheet metal floor that Athearn used. Varney metal boxcars also used this tab to floor mounting arrangement and had wood floors, later diecast metal, then cast plastic floors. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      As for my "unbranded" assembled in Japan car, on close inspection last night I found it was simply assembled very well, I had not noticed the seems between the individual sides and ends before, they are indeed separate stampings. Here is a comparison between the International kit and the assembled unidentified Japanese model, I think possibly by Tenshodo.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      International Kit:
                                                                                                                                                                                       Factory painted sides, Erie # 75502, boxcar red, large white "Erie" diamond with black center, separate stamped aluminum outer roof, ends and prepainted sides with stamped aluminum pre-painted doors to match sides, wood parts include inner roof, inner ends and floor; each side has two addditional lower tabs (like Globe and Varney) to be folded under and affixed to wood floor with screws (no inner sheet metal floor), less trucks, couplers. Standard International flat kit box and label.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Factory painted and assembled "possibly Tenshodo" car:
                                                                                                                                                                                       Erie # 75502, duller, darker "mineral" red, large white diamond, black center, separate stamped metal roof, ends and sides (in the manner of Athearn), diecast doors, no wood used in construction; formed metal floor without wood insert, each side has two additional lower tabs (like Globe and Varney) that are folded under and affixed to the sheet metal floor with fine brass machine screws; In addition all body side tabs are visibly different in length than on the International kit. Model has Tenshodo-style sprung trucks (wheels with bright metal rims, black plastic centers) and Baker-style couplers. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Box: 7-1/4" x 2-9/16" x 1-9/16", cover with mahogany colored small alligator pattern has green label with "Model Railroad" on top, plus a very small profile of train, GP-7 or 9, depressed center flat car, 200 t. crane and Great Northern caboose. End of box rubber stamped "BOX CAR" to which an additional white label is affixed which bears a rubber stamp, "ERIE" and "Made in Japan" is printed on the opposite end.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      As you can see from the above description, the assembled car I spoke of earlier is a different model than simply a factory or modeler assembled kit as my earlier post from memory might have led one to think.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have yet to find any early DL&W - Lackawanna freight car imports, though!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      . 

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi W Jay W., Not exactly sure, but are you referring to the array of various kit and "Kustom Bilt" engines they offered when saying that that almost never imported the same model more than once? This may have been so, but they did have catalogs, offering many of the same models year to year.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Many of their freight cars, especially the cast ones such as your ribbed hopper, were an excellent quality. Yes, they were factory painted, but as with a number of other kits, came unlettered only. As you said, many of their other kits were designed after Athearn, the design and construction was almost identical -- only the material was different (IMP used aluminum in place of Athearn's metal sides, ends and roof). I also forget if they had a sub-roof (could check it fast if needed), as Athearn did, but they copied Athearn closer than they did Globe.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Your ERIE box car is not International; they never copied after Varney's style of construction (they used the Athearn style exclusively on those cars -- steel-sheathed box cars and reefers). You may have a Varney car in that box, or it may be a Bowser -- which copied Varney back in the mid 1980's. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I think someone else already replied about New One -- it was not affiliated with IMP. I recall seeing brass sheet freight cars made by Tenshodo, and while there was definitely some kind of affiliation between IMP and Tenshodo, these were never marketing as International. They often used similar boxes though. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > While on the subject of passenger cars, IMP did have some nice ones Their old time ones -- coach, combine, baggage and supply cars -- came either as built or kits, both ways factory painted, but they only offered the NYC passenger coach in the Harriman monitor roof standard passenger cars (circa 1930). Still, wouldn't mind having some. Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" the_plainsman@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hi Ray F. W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > The more I explore the vast array of International's imported models, the more interesting it is. Plus they almost never imported the same model more than one time, as each successive run seems different, perhaps using a different model shop or different group of model builders in Japan. I have never seen one of the NY Central cabooses either.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I have an assembled cast metal ribbed hopper, seems factory painted oxide red with their "Kupeze" couplers in an oiginal, but unmarked box that seems to fit their car illustrations.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Only have two boxcars, one the familiar International flat box kit that copied the Athearn and Globe format of seperate sides and ends; and a boxed, assembled Erie boxcar, but the parts patterned after Varney, built from two stamped "L" side and end sections. That box label has no mfr name, though so not sure if an International import. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Same goes for an unboxed all brass high side gondola I was told was a very early Tenshodo.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I have always wondered if any "New One" items came in through International, or were they purely a competing line brought in by GHC and/or Polks? I have an old-time, formerly assembled, passenger car that is almost identical to International's cast metal sided ones, but mine has (warped) tenite(?) plastic sides, with "New One" cast on the back of the sides. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Ps. thanks for the note on page #'s, will double check those when I list them next time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Hi Jay, Nice find! I happen to enjoy International Model Products (IMP) and have an extensive collection of them, including 2 of these CNJ cabooses -- and one UP caboose. Many of IMP's cars came as kits only (in the small flat boxes), and many others were "Kustom-Bilts " (packed in these large unique "alligator finish" boxes). I haven't gone up to the H0Seeker site, but just wanted to point out for anyone having this 1956 IMP catalog, that the attachments you've included are found on page 23 (not 19), so somebody on that site screwed up somehow. It's not like my catalog is misprinted either, as I've somehow acquired two of them and they both have these caboose on page 23 at the bottom of a listing of other Kustom-Bilt models. Just an incidental, but somebody may get confused, not finding it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > You'll note that IMP also offered a factory painted (but unlettered, just like the CNJ model) NYC caboose, less trucks -- as is seen included with one of your attachments in the text to the right. This was the first year this NYC model was offered as all the previous IMP catalogs I have do not show this. I don't own this caboose though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Also made by IMP a bit later, was a C&GW (Chicago Great Western) caboose in sheet brass similar to what you remembered being offered later and were talking about with Jim Waterman. These came factory assembled though, and were unpainted. Advertised as part of many IMP/Takara sell sheets I have, only this sheet does not have "Takara" (only International Models, Inc.), so it's possible that this was also made for IMP by someone else. Ray F. W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > I just acquired this International CNJ (Central RR of New Jersey) Caboose via eBay.  These models were factory assembled and painted, constructed of separate thin-wall die cast metal sides and ends, sheet metal roofs with individually applied ribs, wood floor (Grooved on the underside similar to Red Ball), with die-cast underframe, turned brass stack and cupola marker. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > The model, including the end ladders being slightly canted inward above the belt railing is correct as to CNJ practice, although the marker lamps centered on the cupola were later removed and the smoke jack modified.  Curiously, the smoke-jack turning is very long and finished with a sharp point so it could be stuck into the soft wood floor for a solid mount. (It needs to be glued, LOL!) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Besides having its original box, my model has the rice paper "JAPAN" label on the underside, confirming it was factory painted.  An excerpt from page 19 of the 1956 International Catalog, on HOSeeker.org is attached for reference. (For those that have trouble seeing the attachments here, I have also included them in Plainsman's Picks photo album, the last entry.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > Many manufacturers did not do first hand research for their models and often used the Model Railroader Cyclopedia as their source. It seems that International was no exception, so I checked and located  the CNJ caboose plans in the 1942 edition that my dad had, and it is listed as being in other editions as well.  Plans originally appeared in the August 1939 issue of MR, drawn by Frank Taylor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >   
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > To my knowledge, this is the only accurate factory assembled and painted model of a CNJ wood caboose in HO, although printed card side kits were offered by Lehigh in the late 1940's, craftsman style kits were available from Robert Fischer's Gingerbread Stop shop circa 1980 and today there are laser-cut kits from Bethlehem Car Works.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > It is great to find a vintage model accurate to one of the prototype roads I mode!  Some of these cabooses operated into the 1970's, although most received plywood sheeting over the sides.  All it needs is the proper Miss Liberty herald and car number, lettering.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11187
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Which way do these hoppers face?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Kent H., 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have a dissassembled Red Ball carbon covered hopper that has to be reassembled, but it came with the very small instruction sheet which shows that the discharge gates all face the "B" - brake end of the car.  I can make a copy and send it to you (no scanner).  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@..." <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I am getting ready to paint and install the hopper discharge chutes and the instructions do not show which way they face.  Give me a direction and I will consider it correct.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11188
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Stuff I want to get rid of
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
That MDC X2F coupler gauge has to be one of the coolest, least useful today, HO tools ever made.  I have one and enjoy stumping "the experts" with it.  But I don't have a copy of the instructions.  Would you be able to make a copy (or scan) and send it to me?  Also, I spotted what look like a pair of old Varney trucks in some of the photos.  If they are not spoken for yet, let me know what you need for them and the postage and I will sent it to you.  I have a card-sided Varney cabooses that I have to complete that they will go with.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have posted some photos of parts and pieces that I no longer see any use in keeping.  Shipping only to a good home.  Let me know if you have any interest in any of the items.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11189
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: International CNJ Caboose, other cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Real nice acquisition.  You should try to locate at least a couple more of them.  NYC used them in commuter service on the West Shore through September of '57, and I'm fairly sure other roads used cars very similar.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I've got one of the NYC coaches and it was a VERY nice kit.  Went together 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> well and makes an attractive model.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 6:05 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: International CNJ Caboose, other cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi W Jay W., Not exactly sure, but are you referring to the array of various 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> kit and "Kustom Bilt" engines they offered when saying that that almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> never imported the same model more than once?  This may have been so, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> they did have catalogs, offering many of the same models year to year.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Many of their freight cars, especially the cast ones such as your ribbed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> hopper, were an excellent quality.  Yes, they were factory painted, but as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> with a number of other kits, came unlettered only.  As you said, many of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> their other kits were designed after Athearn, the design and construction 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> was almost identical -- only the material was different (IMP used aluminum 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> in place of Athearn's metal sides, ends and roof).  I also forget if they 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> had a sub-roof (could check it fast if needed), as Athearn did, but they 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> copied Athearn closer than they did Globe.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Your ERIE box car is not International; they never copied after Varney's 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> style of construction (they used the Athearn style exclusively on those 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> cars -- steel-sheathed box cars and reefers).  You may have a Varney car in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that box, or it may be a Bowser -- which copied Varney back in the mid 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 1980's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I think someone else already replied about New One -- it was not affiliated 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> with IMP.  I recall seeing brass sheet freight cars made by Tenshodo, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> while there was definitely some kind of affiliation between IMP and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Tenshodo, these were never marketing as International.  They often used 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> similar boxes though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> While on the subject of passenger cars, IMP did have some nice ones  Their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> old time ones -- coach, combine, baggage and supply cars -- came either as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> built or kits, both ways factory painted, but they only offered the NYC 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> passenger coach in the Harriman monitor roof standard passenger cars (circa 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 1930).  Still, wouldn't mind having some.   Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11190
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Stuff I want to get rid of
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks to all, I believe I have takers for everything.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
And W Jay W, I will scan those insstructions for you and also for HOseeker.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> That MDC X2F coupler gauge has to be one of the coolest, least useful today, HO tools ever made.  I have one and enjoy stumping "the experts" with it.  But I don't have a copy of the instructions.  Would you be able to make a copy (or scan) and send it to me?  Also, I spotted what look like a pair of old Varney trucks in some of the photos.  If they are not spoken for yet, let me know what you need for them and the postage and I will sent it to you.  I have a card-sided Varney cabooses that I have to complete that they will go with.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49" <nvrr49@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I have posted some photos of parts and pieces that I no longer see any use in keeping.  Shipping only to a good home.  Let me know if you have any interest in any of the items.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11191
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Have no idea when Winton first started using lost wax castings.  Looked all through the paperwork to at least get some idea when this kit was produced but there's not a single daste to be found anywhere.  Their address at this time was P.O. Box 355, Danville California, which may give a clue if you knew when they were there.  I recall a motto of their's similar to what you said, but then, when I opened the first page of the instructions, it said right on the bottom of the page -- "Remember WINTON kits were all 'BRASS" -- so I guess any other versions of their motto may have been twisted around a bit in the modeling circle over time.  Their motto rang a bell of recollection when I read it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Yes, I agree, while Winton obviously had a few variations, it's hard to know just how many unless we had some literature to go by.  I've seen their catalogs, but the ones I've seen only showed their live steam products.  Alright, then you saw an exact copy of mine when you saw the first pics you sent of the engine you're buying.  So then, you can't say that they are not identical (LOL).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
On the exact order of variations, I was just using any order arbitrarily, not necessarily stating definitely that yours was really in any certain production run.  Merely attempting to demonstrate the differences between various versions.  Yours may well have been part of the original run of these locomotives -- I have absolutely no way of knowing.  Their motto seems to bear this out, and as you've stated -- all stamped BRASS parts (w/no castings) and all BRASS with Scullen drivers -- seems also to help support that this was their motto.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As for proof of authenticity by a manufacturer, how much more proof can be offered than to have the kit come in the manufacturers box, with ALL the paperwork bearing the manufacturer's name.  While my kit and Sean's engine may not have been bought right over the hobby store counter, taking that stance we might just as well doubt the authenticity of a brand spanking new engine kit bought today right over the hobby store counter as it too may have been displaced by another brand -- since we are not buying them directly from the manufacturer.  Looking at it that way, while your Winton Allegheny was assembled by you from a kit (I assume in a Winton box with Winton instructions), I too could have doubts that before you bought it, or even at the time the original owner bought it from his hobby shop --that possibly someone replaced the drivers for all I know.  We need to extend at least some credence to a product when confronted with enough "evidence" that will support it as such.   Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          Oh well I hate to keep this going but I must. If the engine you have a kit of is the same as the top picture of the two I just sent from my friend in California and it has all "lost wax brass castings" when did Winton (not Ma Ra ) start using lost wax castings with their engines. They prided themselves with actually having a motto to the effect that their engines had NO castings or am I dreaming that ? Yes Ma Ra used lost wax castings.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    As for the number of runs and or variations I don't really know but who does. Is there any literature, catalogs or the like. Yes I know that Winton, not sure if same owner, had two different factories but it's hard for me to believe so many variations (4) in such a short time of production, but again anything possible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   By the way I have not seen your engine but you stated it was 100% the same , except for that connecting bar between the sets of drivers, when you compared it with the pictures I first sent of the engine I am  buying. Therefore I have seen an exact copy of your engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     As for multiple runs / variations and which came first. Maybe I read your email wrong but I think you listed 3 different types and what came first. Unless I see positive proof I feel my engine, all stamped brass parts with no castings and all brass with Scullen drivers was the first run. That was what Winton based his engines on. As to what followed any ones guess.Since you, Sean, and the seller of the engine I am buying are the SAME I have to keep my mind open.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       I will NOT disagree that Sean, You or anyone else have variations that were factory oriented since I have no proof either. Again never say never. We both have found that out discussing many things like the brass /bronze tender Varney sold and where Adams and Sons played a part.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Just like this Varney tender example I think we are at an impasse as to a definitive answer without a lot more info.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 7:32 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Jim, My Winton Allegheny kit is identical to the one in your top photo here, including the same style spoked drivers, same front and rear trucks, in fact all lost-wax brass castings -- truck side-frames included as such. Only one "slight" difference though -- mine has valve gear (I see it's missing on this engine). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   You'll note that while the Allegheny in the bottom photo (third engine) also has spoked drivers, the counterweights are of a different style -- if you look closely. If this is a Winton, and I have no way of knowing if it is, then they must have changed driver styles at least a fourth time during their manufacturing era (and who knows what else they changed along the way). Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > I'm sending these pictures of pictures of what are three Allegheny's my friend in California owns. I cut the top picture off as it was of the "normal" Winton Allegheny. The second picture he describes as a Winton Allegheny with spoked drivers which is the type it should have.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > It is the third picture that I am asking about. This is an brass Allegheny with Lost Wax Castings. Friend calls describes it as 3rd version Winton. Could it be the Ma Ra version ???? I see it has spoked drivers on it. Missing lead and trailing trucks. Does anyone have the Ma Ra version even if not complete to verify ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11192
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Rick,  It would help us to know what material these cars are made of.  The SAL box car looks to be a cardboard sided metal Mantua car.  I don't know if the flat car has paper sides or is all metal.  I couldn't give a guess on the Gerbers reefer unless I knew what it was made of.  Ray F.W.    
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     I'm about to place these three vintage cars on eBay. They are all 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> old craftsman pieces with no identifying names or logos. Just wondering 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> if anybody can tell by the reporting marks who the manufacturers might be.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I'm planning to put these up for sale as a single set.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> "Just a little touch of madness will help to keep you alive."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     -Robin Williams
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11193
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: International Models & other sheet metal sided boxcars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi W Jay W.,  Okay, now I see what you mean; I guess I never noticed IMP's various variations!  I have noticed some of their paints (colors) may vary considerably from their counterparts (Athearn and Globe) and from the prototype as well.  A good example is their WP "Feather" box car, which Athearn uses orange on to paint the feather.  IMP's representation of this box car uses yellow for the feather.  Just never realized that about the CNJ cabooses either.  I guess I've never compared mine closely, or maybe I have two from the same run.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Rather than IMP's construction being closer to either Athearn or Globe, what I really meant to say was that while they're similar to both, their finished design is much closer to Athearn as far as final overall dimensions and size -- both length and height.  If someone didn't know much about IMP and their construction material, their built up cars could easily be mistaken for Athearn.  Nothing against Globe (and I mean positivly nothing against Globe, asc we cherish them), but their box cars and reefers are just too high (and higher than Athearn).  This isn't all that noticeable or objectionable with the Globe box cars, but much more obvious with their reefers having added (too much) space over the doors.  We value them just the same, but Athearns are closer to the prototype.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Okay -- so your ERIE box car IS an International after all!  Great news, needless to say, that's one of my favorite Roads, and a nice find for an IMP.  The Tenshodo cars are very similar, and speaking about variations, both IMP and Tenshodo used the same construction method of machine screws to affix the sheet metal floor at one time or another on different series.  You won't find a DL&W (Lackawanna) freight car import simply as IMP/Takara and/or Tenshodo never produced one, although they did offer roads more obscure such as SLSW St Louis Southwestern), L&A (Louisiana & Arkansas) and N.C.& StL. (North Carolina & St. Louis).  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
   
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I should have used more precise wording in my statement regarding
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> International Models, perhaps this: "that each run of even the same
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> prototype seems to have differed in either minor or major ways, even if
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the same craftsmen's shop was used."  Examples I know about first
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> hand are the various different models of the PRR O1 locomotives - made
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> in at least three or four different runs that serveral of us discussed
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> last winter; the PRR P5A modified, that had at least two visibly
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> different runs and the versions of those CNJ & UP cabooses we just
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> discussed.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Last evening, I brought out my collection of boxed metal sided Erie
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> boxcar models and kits (International, unidentified, possibly Tenshodo,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Globe, Athearn and Varney) and looked at each closely, side by side. My
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> reference to Athearn and Globe being similar was intended only in regard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to the overall construction method, each being made of of separate side,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> end and roof stampings, unlike Varney that had each side and end stamped
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> as one piece and formed into the "L" shape. Athearn and Globe had many
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> differences bewteen them as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> As you said, the International version follows the Athearn construction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and assembly most closely. However, it also follows the Globe method of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> attaching the sides to the floor in that each side has two lower tabs to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> be bent under and screwed to the wood floor. Like Globe, International
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> kits also lack a formed inner sheet metal floor that Athearn used.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Varney metal boxcars also used this tab to floor mounting arrangement
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and had wood floors, later diecast metal, then cast plastic floors.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> As for my "unbranded" assembled in Japan car, on close inspection last
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> night I found it was simply assembled very well, I had not noticed the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> seems between the individual sides and ends before, they are indeed
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> separate stampings. Here is a comparison between the International kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and the assembled unidentified Japanese model, I think possibly by
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Tenshodo.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> International Kit: Factory painted sides, Erie # 75502, boxcar red,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> large white "Erie" diamond with black center, separate stamped aluminum
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> outer roof, ends and prepainted sides with stamped aluminum pre-painted
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> doors to match sides, wood parts include inner roof, inner ends and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> floor; each side has two addditional lower tabs (like Globe and Varney)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to be folded under and affixed to wood floor with screws (no inner sheet
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> metal floor), less trucks, couplers. Standard International flat kit box
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and label.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Factory painted and assembled "possibly Tenshodo" car: Erie # 75502,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> duller, darker "mineral" red, large white diamond, black center,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> separate stamped metal roof, ends and sides (in the manner of Athearn),
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> diecast doors, no wood used in construction; formed metal floor without
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> wood insert, each side has two additional lower tabs (like Globe and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Varney) that are folded under and affixed to the sheet metal floor with
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> fine brass machine screws; In addition all body side tabs are visibly
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> different in length than on the International kit. Model has
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Tenshodo-style sprung trucks (wheels with bright metal rims, black
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> plastic centers) and Baker-style couplers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Box: 7-1/4" x 2-9/16" x 1-9/16", cover with mahogany colored small
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> alligator pattern has green label with "Model Railroad" on top, plus a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> very small profile of train, GP-7 or 9, depressed center flat car, 200
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> t. crane and Great Northern caboose. End of box rubber stamped "BOX CAR"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to which an additional white label is affixed which bears a rubber
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> stamp, "ERIE" and "Made in Japan" is printed on the opposite end.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> As you can see from the above description, the assembled car I spoke of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> earlier is a different model than simply a factory or modeler assembled
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> kit as my earlier post from memory might have led one to think.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have yet to find any early DL&W - Lackawanna freight car imports,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> though!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> .
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi W Jay W., Not exactly sure, but are you referring to the array of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> various kit and "Kustom Bilt" engines they offered when saying that that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> almost never imported the same model more than once? This may have been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> so, but they did have catalogs, offering many of the same models year to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> year.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Many of their freight cars, especially the cast ones such as your
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ribbed hopper, were an excellent quality. Yes, they were factory
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> painted, but as with a number of other kits, came unlettered only. As
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> you said, many of their other kits were designed after Athearn, the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> design and construction was almost identical -- only the material was
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> different (IMP used aluminum in place of Athearn's metal sides, ends and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> roof). I also forget if they had a sub-roof (could check it fast if
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> needed), as Athearn did, but they copied Athearn closer than they did
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Globe.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Your ERIE box car is not International; they never copied after
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Varney's style of construction (they used the Athearn style exclusively
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> on those cars -- steel-sheathed box cars and reefers). You may have a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Varney car in that box, or it may be a Bowser -- which copied Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> back in the mid 1980's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I think someone else already replied about New One -- it was not
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> affiliated with IMP. I recall seeing brass sheet freight cars made by
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Tenshodo, and while there was definitely some kind of affiliation
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> between IMP and Tenshodo, these were never marketing as International.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> They often used similar boxes though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > While on the subject of passenger cars, IMP did have some nice ones
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Their old time ones -- coach, combine, baggage and supply cars -- came
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> either as built or kits, both ways factory painted, but they only
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> offered the NYC passenger coach in the Harriman monitor roof standard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> passenger cars (circa 1930). Still, wouldn't mind having some. Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" the_plainsman@
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Hi Ray F. W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > The more I explore the vast array of International's imported
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> models, the more interesting it is. Plus they almost never imported the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> same model more than one time, as each successive run seems different,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> perhaps using a different model shop or different group of model
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> builders in Japan. I have never seen one of the NY Central cabooses
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> either.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I have an assembled cast metal ribbed hopper, seems factory painted
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> oxide red with their "Kupeze" couplers in an oiginal, but unmarked box
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that seems to fit their car illustrations.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Only have two boxcars, one the familiar International flat box kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that copied the Athearn and Globe format of seperate sides and ends; and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> a boxed, assembled Erie boxcar, but the parts patterned after Varney,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> built from two stamped "L" side and end sections. That box label has no
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> mfr name, though so not sure if an International import.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Same goes for an unboxed all brass high side gondola I was told was
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> a very early Tenshodo.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I have always wondered if any "New One" items came in through
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> International, or were they purely a competing line brought in by GHC
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and/or Polks? I have an old-time, formerly assembled, passenger car that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> is almost identical to International's cast metal sided ones, but mine
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> has (warped) tenite(?) plastic sides, with "New One" cast on the back of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the sides.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Ps. thanks for the note on page #'s, will double check those when I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> list them next time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Hi Jay, Nice find! I happen to enjoy International Model Products
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (IMP) and have an extensive collection of them, including 2 of these CNJ
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> cabooses -- and one UP caboose. Many of IMP's cars came as kits only (in
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the small flat boxes), and many others were "Kustom-Bilts " (packed in
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> these large unique "alligator finish" boxes). I haven't gone up to the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> H0Seeker site, but just wanted to point out for anyone having this 1956
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> IMP catalog, that the attachments you've included are found on page 23
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (not 19), so somebody on that site screwed up somehow. It's not like my
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> catalog is misprinted either, as I've somehow acquired two of them and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> they both have these caboose on page 23 at the bottom of a listing of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> other Kustom-Bilt models. Just an incidental, but somebody may get
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> confused, not finding it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > You'll note that IMP also offered a factory painted (but
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> unlettered, just like the CNJ model) NYC caboose, less trucks -- as is
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> seen included with one of your attachments in the text to the right.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> This was the first year this NYC model was offered as all the previous
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> IMP catalogs I have do not show this. I don't own this caboose though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Also made by IMP a bit later, was a C&GW (Chicago Great Western)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> caboose in sheet brass similar to what you remembered being offered
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> later and were talking about with Jim Waterman. These came factory
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> assembled though, and were unpainted. Advertised as part of many
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> IMP/Takara sell sheets I have, only this sheet does not have "Takara"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (only International Models, Inc.), so it's possible that this was also
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> made for IMP by someone else. Ray F. W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > I just acquired this International CNJ (Central RR of New
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Jersey) Caboose via eBay.  These models were factory assembled and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> painted, constructed of separate thin-wall die cast metal sides and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ends, sheet metal roofs with individually applied ribs, wood floor
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (Grooved on the underside similar to Red Ball), with die-cast
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> underframe, turned brass stack and cupola marker.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > The model, including the end ladders being slightly canted
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> inward above the belt railing is correct as to CNJ practice, although
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the marker lamps centered on the cupola were later removed and the smoke
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> jack modified.  Curiously, the smoke-jack turning is very long and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> finished with a sharp point so it could be stuck into the soft wood
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> floor for a solid mount. (It needs to be glued, LOL!)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > Besides having its original box, my model has the rice paper
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> "JAPAN" label on the underside, confirming it was factory painted.  An
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> excerpt from page 19 of the 1956 International Catalog, on HOSeeker.org
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> is attached for reference. (For those that have trouble seeing the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> attachments here, I have also included them in Plainsman's Picks photo
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> album, the last entry.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > Many manufacturers did not do first hand research for their
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> models and often used the Model Railroader Cyclopedia as their source.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It seems that International was no exception, so I checked and located 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the CNJ caboose plans in the 1942 edition that my dad had, and it is
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> listed as being in other editions as well.  Plans originally appeared in
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the August 1939 issue of MR, drawn by Frank Taylor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > To my knowledge, this is the only accurate factory assembled and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> painted model of a CNJ wood caboose in HO, although printed card side
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> kits were offered by Lehigh in the late 1940's, craftsman style kits
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> were available from Robert Fischer's Gingerbread Stop shop circa 1980
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and today there are laser-cut kits from Bethlehem Car Works.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > It is great to find a vintage model accurate to one of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> prototype roads I mode!  Some of these cabooses operated into the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 1970's, although most received plywood sheeting over the sides.  All it
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> needs is the proper Miss Liberty herald and car number, lettering.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11194
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Which way do these hoppers face?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      So, the part of the chute that sticks out, points toward the B end?  Correct?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Kent H., 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have a dissassembled Red Ball carbon covered hopper that has to be reassembled, but it came with the very small instruction sheet which shows that the discharge gates all face the "B" - brake end of the car.  I can make a copy and send it to you (no scanner).  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@" <nvrr49@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I am getting ready to paint and install the hopper discharge chutes and the instructions do not show which way they face.  Give me a direction and I will consider it correct.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11195
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Ray W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Back on August 15,2008   Denny Ansbach wrote an Email to the site 
about the history of Winton pertaining to the Allegheny. He also created a 
new Winton folder in files along with pictures. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           I haven't had time to go 
into the folder but have reread the original Email. Perhaps it would be a good 
idea to carefully read about the number of runs, the type of runs, who sold 
what run, the run that was not sold under the Winton name, the later 
Ma Ra item. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I can't guarantee it is 100% 
accurate but seems to be real close but again never say never.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 2:45 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ma Ra Allegheny 
  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Have no idea when Winton first started using lost wax castings. Looked all 
  through the paperwork to at least get some idea when this kit was produced but 
  there's not a single daste to be found anywhere. Their address at this time 
  was P.O. Box 355, Danville California, which may give a clue if you knew when 
  they were there. I recall a motto of their's similar to what you said, but 
  then, when I opened the first page of the instructions, it said right on the 
  bottom of the page -- "Remember WINTON kits were all 'BRASS" -- so I guess any 
  other versions of their motto may have been twisted around a bit in the 
  modeling circle over time. Their motto rang a bell of recollection when I read 
  it.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, I agree, while Winton obviously had a few variations, it's 
  hard to know just how many unless we had some literature to go by. I've seen 
  their catalogs, but the ones I've seen only showed their live steam products. 
  Alright, then you saw an exact copy of mine when you saw the first pics you 
  sent of the engine you're buying. So then, you can't say that they are not 
  identical (LOL).

                                                                                                                                                                                      On the exact order of variations, I was just using any 
  order arbitrarily, not necessarily stating definitely that yours was really in 
  any certain production run. Merely attempting to demonstrate the differences 
  between various versions. Yours may well have been part of the original run of 
  these locomotives -- I have absolutely no way of knowing. Their motto seems to 
  bear this out, and as you've stated -- all stamped BRASS parts (w/no castings) 
  and all BRASS with Scullen drivers -- seems also to help support that this was 
  their motto.

                                                                                                                                                                                      As for proof of authenticity by a manufacturer, how much 
  more proof can be offered than to have the kit come in the manufacturers box, 
  with ALL the paperwork bearing the manufacturer' s name. While my kit and 
  Sean's engine may not have been bought right over the hobby store counter, 
  taking that stance we might just as well doubt the authenticity of a brand 
  spanking new engine kit bought today right over the hobby store counter as it 
  too may have been displaced by another brand -- since we are not buying them 
  directly from the manufacturer. Looking at it that way, while your Winton 
  Allegheny was assembled by you from a kit (I assume in a Winton box with 
  Winton instructions) , I too could have doubts that before you bought it, 
  or even at the time the original owner bought it from his hobby shop --that 
  possibly someone replaced the drivers for all I know. We need to extend at 
  least some credence to a product when confronted with enough "evidence" that 
  will support it as such. Ray F.W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Oh well I hate 
  to keep this going but I must. If the engine you have a kit of is the same as 
  the top picture of the two I just sent from my friend in California and it has 
  all "lost wax brass castings" when did Winton (not Ma Ra ) start using lost 
  wax castings with their engines. They prided themselves with actually having a 
  motto to the effect that their engines had NO castings or am I dreaming that ? 
  Yes Ma Ra used lost wax castings.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > As for the number of runs 
  and or variations I don't really know but who does. Is there any literature, 
  catalogs or the like. Yes I know that Winton, not sure if same owner, had two 
  different factories but it's hard for me to believe so many variations (4) in 
  such a short time of production, but again anything possible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > By the way I have not seen your engine but you stated it was 100% the 
  same , except for that connecting bar between the sets of drivers, when you 
  compared it with the pictures I first sent of the engine I am buying. 
  Therefore I have seen an exact copy of your engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > As for 
  multiple runs / variations and which came first. Maybe I read your email wrong 
  but I think you listed 3 different types and what came first. Unless I see 
  positive proof I feel my engine, all stamped brass parts with no castings and 
  all brass with Scullen drivers was the first run. That was what Winton based 
  his engines on. As to what followed any ones guess.Since you, Sean, and the 
  seller of the engine I am buying are the SAME I have to keep my mind 
  open.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I will NOT disagree that Sean, You or anyone else have 
  variations that were factory oriented since I have no proof either. Again 
  never say never. We both have found that out discussing many things like the 
  brass /bronze tender Varney sold and where Adams and Sons played a 
  part.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Just like this Varney tender example I think we are at 
  an impasse as to a definitive answer without a lot more info.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message ----- 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: erieberk 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 7:32 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 
  Ma Ra Allegheny ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim, My Winton Allegheny kit is 
  identical to the one in your top photo here, including the same style spoked 
  drivers, same front and rear trucks, in fact all lost-wax brass castings -- 
  truck side-frames included as such. Only one "slight" difference though -- 
  mine has valve gear (I see it's missing on this engine). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  You'll note that while the Allegheny in the bottom photo (third engine) also 
  has spoked drivers, the counterweights are of a different style -- if you look 
  closely. If this is a Winton, and I have no way of knowing if it is, then they 
  must have changed driver styles at least a fourth time during their 
  manufacturing era (and who knows what else they changed along the way). Ray 
  F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I'm sending 
  these pictures of pictures of what are three Allegheny's my friend in 
  California owns. I cut the top picture off as it was of the "normal" Winton 
  Allegheny. The second picture he describes as a Winton Allegheny with spoked 
  drivers which is the type it should have.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > It is the 
  third picture that I am asking about. This is an brass Allegheny with Lost Wax 
  Castings. Friend calls describes it as 3rd version Winton. Could it be the Ma 
  Ra version ???? I see it has spoked drivers on it. Missing lead and trailing 
  trucks. Does anyone have the Ma Ra version even if not complete to verify 
  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11196
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Rick,  It would help us to know what material these cars are made of.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The SAL box car looks to be a cardboard sided metal Mantua car.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> don't know if the flat car has paper sides or is all metal.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> couldn't give a guess on the Gerbers reefer unless I knew what it was
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> made of.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          The Gerber reefer has printed paper sides over scribed wood 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sheathing and a cast metal underframe. The 4 ice hatches and surrounding 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
decks are a single cast metal piece. It has reporting marks GSVX 1003.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    The Seaboard Orange Blossom Special boxcar sides are somewhat hard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to identify as to the material. The paint has a shiny plastic look to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
it, but poking at the edge of the it appears that it may be very thin 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
cardboard or thick pressed paper. It's hard to determine of the vertical 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
panels are molded or embossed. There's no underframe to speak of, just a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
center sill of wood. The reporting marks have Seaboard spelled out, no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
abbreviation, with car number 17888.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    The flat car is a 50 footer. The sides do appear to be printed paper 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
glued/laminated to the side beams. Again no underframe to speak of, just 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
a center sill. The couplers are dummies that just sort of slide loosely 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
through the draft gear end piece, with a thicker end opposite the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
coupler so they don't pull out. The reporting marks are L&N 26460.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    These all need some refurbishment. IIRC they were all parts of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
batches of cars that I bought at NMRA convention auctions. They're all a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
bit too crude for my taste, so they may go back quite a few decades.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Why is bottled lemon juice made with artificial flavor but lemon
                                                                                                                                                                                      
scent dishwashing liquid is made with real lemons?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11197
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Which way do these hoppers face?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Correct, Kent!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> So, the part of the chute that sticks out, points toward the B end?  Correct?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi Kent H., 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I have a dissassembled Red Ball carbon covered hopper that has to be reassembled, but it came with the very small instruction sheet which shows that the discharge gates all face the "B" - brake end of the car.  I can make a copy and send it to you (no scanner).  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@" <nvrr49@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I am getting ready to paint and install the hopper discharge chutes and the instructions do not show which way they face.  Give me a direction and I will consider it correct.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11198
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Winton tender question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dr. Denny Anspach,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              Due 
to a discussion taking place about Winton Allegheny's I went back to your 
Email of August 15, 2008 where you mention a file and pictures. I have a 
question about the Winton tender picture. Unless I missed something else 
(computer illiterate) the picture shows a tender behind an Allegheny you 
described, also in your write-up, as edition No 2 and stated it became the 
Ma Ra version (as no known ads appeared to show it was ever sold under the 
Winton name).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I have sent a 
picture of the plans for my Winton tender. It is very different in the tender 
trucks . Without adding to the confusion would your picture be a second run 
Ma Ra type tender and that there were two tenders sold ? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Thanks in 
advance
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11199
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Winton Brown also worked a bit larger--he developed and made patterns for, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and possibly completed locos--a 1.5" scale 2-6-0.  Lots of brass on the one 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I saw back in 19168.   Just a bit of trivia linked to the builder at hand. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 11:45 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Have no idea when Winton first started using lost wax castings.  Looked 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> all through the paperwork to at least get some idea when this kit was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> produced but there's not a single daste to be found anywhere.  Their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> address at this time was P.O. Box 355, Danville California, which may give 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> a clue if you knew when they were there.  I recall a motto of their's 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> similar to what you said, but then, when I opened the first page of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> instructions, it said right on the bottom of the page -- "Remember WINTON 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> kits were all 'BRASS" -- so I guess any other versions of their motto may 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have been twisted around a bit in the modeling circle over time.  Their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> motto rang a bell of recollection when I read it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yes, I agree, while Winton obviously had a few variations, it's hard to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> know just how many unless we had some literature to go by.  I've seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> their catalogs, but the ones I've seen only showed their live steam 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> products.  Alright, then you saw an exact copy of mine when you saw the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> first pics you sent of the engine you're buying.  So then, you can't say 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that they are not identical (LOL).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On the exact order of variations, I was just using any order arbitrarily, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> not necessarily stating definitely that yours was really in any certain 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> production run.  Merely attempting to demonstrate the differences between 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> various versions.  Yours may well have been part of the original run of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> these locomotives -- I have absolutely no way of knowing.  Their motto 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> seems to bear this out, and as you've stated -- all stamped BRASS parts 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (w/no castings) and all BRASS with Scullen drivers -- seems also to help 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> support that this was their motto.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> As for proof of authenticity by a manufacturer, how much more proof can be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> offered than to have the kit come in the manufacturers box, with ALL the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> paperwork bearing the manufacturer's name.  While my kit and Sean's engine 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> may not have been bought right over the hobby store counter, taking that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> stance we might just as well doubt the authenticity of a brand spanking 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> new engine kit bought today right over the hobby store counter as it too 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> may have been displaced by another brand -- since we are not buying them 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> directly from the manufacturer.  Looking at it that way, while your Winton 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Allegheny was assembled by you from a kit (I assume in a Winton box with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Winton instructions), I too could have doubts that before you bought it, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> or even at the time the original owner bought it from his hobby 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> shop --that possibly someone replaced the drivers for all I know.  We need 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to extend at least some credence to a product when confronted with enough 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> "evidence" that will support it as such.   Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>          Oh well I hate to keep this going but I must. If the engine you 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> have a kit of is the same as the top picture of the two I just sent from 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> my friend in California and it has all "lost wax brass castings" when did 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Winton (not Ma Ra ) start using lost wax castings with their engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> They prided themselves with actually having a motto to the effect that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> their engines had NO castings or am I dreaming that ? Yes Ma Ra used lost 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> wax castings.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>    As for the number of runs and or variations I don't really know but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> who does. Is there any literature, catalogs or the like. Yes I know that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Winton, not sure if same owner, had two different factories but it's hard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> for me to believe so many variations (4) in such a short time of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> production, but again anything possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>   By the way I have not seen your engine but you stated it was 100% the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> same , except for that connecting bar between the sets of drivers, when 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> you compared it with the pictures I first sent of the engine I am 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> buying. Therefore I have seen an exact copy of your engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>     As for multiple runs / variations and which came first. Maybe I read 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> your email wrong but I think you listed 3 different types and what came 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> first. Unless I see positive proof I feel my engine, all stamped brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> parts with no castings and all brass with Scullen drivers was the first 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> run. That was what Winton based his engines on. As to what followed any 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> ones guess.Since you, Sean, and the seller of the engine I am buying are 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> the SAME I have to keep my mind open.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>       I will NOT disagree that Sean, You or anyone else have variations 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> that were factory oriented since I have no proof either. Again never say 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> never. We both have found that out discussing many things like the brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> /bronze tender Varney sold and where Adams and Sons played a part.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>       Just like this Varney tender example I think we are at an impasse 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> as to a definitive answer without a lot more info.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>   From: erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>   Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 7:32 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>     Jim, My Winton Allegheny kit is identical to the one in your top 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> photo here, including the same style spoked drivers, same front and rear 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> trucks, in fact all lost-wax brass castings -- truck side-frames included 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> as such. Only one "slight" difference though -- mine has valve gear (I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> see it's missing on this engine).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>   You'll note that while the Allegheny in the bottom photo (third engine) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> also has spoked drivers, the counterweights are of a different style --  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> if you look closely. If this is a Winton, and I have no way of knowing if 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> it is, then they must have changed driver styles at least a fourth time 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> during their manufacturing era (and who knows what else they changed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> along the way). Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>   > I'm sending these pictures of pictures of what are three Allegheny's 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> my friend in California owns. I cut the top picture off as it was of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> "normal" Winton Allegheny. The second picture he describes as a Winton 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Allegheny with spoked drivers which is the type it should have.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>   > It is the third picture that I am asking about. This is an brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Allegheny with Lost Wax Castings. Friend calls describes it as 3rd 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> version Winton. Could it be the Ma Ra version ???? I see it has spoked 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> drivers on it. Missing lead and trailing trucks. Does anyone have the Ma 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Ra version even if not complete to verify ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
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No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.29/2261 - Release Date: 07/25/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
05:58:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11200
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Mantua's flatcar was always all die cast--it might be considered the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
"transition" piece between the early and later cars--just like the "Mighty 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mite" in the locomotives.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 11:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Help Identifying
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Rick,  It would help us to know what material these cars are made of.  The 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> SAL box car looks to be a cardboard sided metal Mantua car.  I don't know 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> if the flat car has paper sides or is all metal.  I couldn't give a guess 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> on the Gerbers reefer unless I knew what it was made of.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>     I'm about to place these three vintage cars on eBay. They are all
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> old craftsman pieces with no identifying names or logos. Just wondering
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> if anybody can tell by the reporting marks who the manufacturers might 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> be.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I'm planning to put these up for sale as a single set.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> "Just a little touch of madness will help to keep you alive."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>     -Robin Williams
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.29/2261 - Release Date: 07/25/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
05:58:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11201
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Those 1.5" scale locos may have been some of the live steam engines I mentioned seeing catalogs of, in my post you're reply to.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Winton Brown also worked a bit larger--he developed and made patterns for, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and possibly completed locos--a 1.5" scale 2-6-0.  Lots of brass on the one 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I saw back in 19168.   Just a bit of trivia linked to the builder at hand. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 11:45 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Have no idea when Winton first started using lost wax castings.  Looked 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > all through the paperwork to at least get some idea when this kit was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > produced but there's not a single daste to be found anywhere.  Their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > address at this time was P.O. Box 355, Danville California, which may give 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > a clue if you knew when they were there.  I recall a motto of their's 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > similar to what you said, but then, when I opened the first page of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > instructions, it said right on the bottom of the page -- "Remember WINTON 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > kits were all 'BRASS" -- so I guess any other versions of their motto may 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > have been twisted around a bit in the modeling circle over time.  Their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > motto rang a bell of recollection when I read it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Yes, I agree, while Winton obviously had a few variations, it's hard to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > know just how many unless we had some literature to go by.  I've seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > their catalogs, but the ones I've seen only showed their live steam 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > products.  Alright, then you saw an exact copy of mine when you saw the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > first pics you sent of the engine you're buying.  So then, you can't say 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > that they are not identical (LOL).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > On the exact order of variations, I was just using any order arbitrarily, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > not necessarily stating definitely that yours was really in any certain 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > production run.  Merely attempting to demonstrate the differences between 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > various versions.  Yours may well have been part of the original run of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > these locomotives -- I have absolutely no way of knowing.  Their motto 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > seems to bear this out, and as you've stated -- all stamped BRASS parts 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > (w/no castings) and all BRASS with Scullen drivers -- seems also to help 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > support that this was their motto.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > As for proof of authenticity by a manufacturer, how much more proof can be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > offered than to have the kit come in the manufacturers box, with ALL the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > paperwork bearing the manufacturer's name.  While my kit and Sean's engine 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > may not have been bought right over the hobby store counter, taking that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > stance we might just as well doubt the authenticity of a brand spanking 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > new engine kit bought today right over the hobby store counter as it too 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > may have been displaced by another brand -- since we are not buying them 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > directly from the manufacturer.  Looking at it that way, while your Winton 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Allegheny was assembled by you from a kit (I assume in a Winton box with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Winton instructions), I too could have doubts that before you bought it, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > or even at the time the original owner bought it from his hobby 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > shop --that possibly someone replaced the drivers for all I know.  We need 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > to extend at least some credence to a product when confronted with enough 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > "evidence" that will support it as such.   Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>          Oh well I hate to keep this going but I must. If the engine you 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> have a kit of is the same as the top picture of the two I just sent from 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> my friend in California and it has all "lost wax brass castings" when did 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Winton (not Ma Ra ) start using lost wax castings with their engines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> They prided themselves with actually having a motto to the effect that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> their engines had NO castings or am I dreaming that ? Yes Ma Ra used lost 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> wax castings.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>    As for the number of runs and or variations I don't really know but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> who does. Is there any literature, catalogs or the like. Yes I know that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Winton, not sure if same owner, had two different factories but it's hard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> for me to believe so many variations (4) in such a short time of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> production, but again anything possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>   By the way I have not seen your engine but you stated it was 100% the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> same , except for that connecting bar between the sets of drivers, when 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> you compared it with the pictures I first sent of the engine I am 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> buying. Therefore I have seen an exact copy of your engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>     As for multiple runs / variations and which came first. Maybe I read 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> your email wrong but I think you listed 3 different types and what came 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> first. Unless I see positive proof I feel my engine, all stamped brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> parts with no castings and all brass with Scullen drivers was the first 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> run. That was what Winton based his engines on. As to what followed any 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> ones guess.Since you, Sean, and the seller of the engine I am buying are 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> the SAME I have to keep my mind open.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>       I will NOT disagree that Sean, You or anyone else have variations 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> that were factory oriented since I have no proof either. Again never say 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> never. We both have found that out discussing many things like the brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> /bronze tender Varney sold and where Adams and Sons played a part.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>       Just like this Varney tender example I think we are at an impasse 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> as to a definitive answer without a lot more info.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>   From: erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>   Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 7:32 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>     Jim, My Winton Allegheny kit is identical to the one in your top 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> photo here, including the same style spoked drivers, same front and rear 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> trucks, in fact all lost-wax brass castings -- truck side-frames included 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> as such. Only one "slight" difference though -- mine has valve gear (I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> see it's missing on this engine).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>   You'll note that while the Allegheny in the bottom photo (third engine) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> also has spoked drivers, the counterweights are of a different style --  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> if you look closely. If this is a Winton, and I have no way of knowing if 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> it is, then they must have changed driver styles at least a fourth time 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> during their manufacturing era (and who knows what else they changed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> along the way). Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>   > I'm sending these pictures of pictures of what are three Allegheny's 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> my friend in California owns. I cut the top picture off as it was of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> "normal" Winton Allegheny. The second picture he describes as a Winton 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Allegheny with spoked drivers which is the type it should have.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>   > It is the third picture that I am asking about. This is an brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Allegheny with Lost Wax Castings. Friend calls describes it as 3rd 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> version Winton. Could it be the Ma Ra version ???? I see it has spoked 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> drivers on it. Missing lead and trailing trucks. Does anyone have the Ma 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Ra version even if not complete to verify ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.29/2261 - Release Date: 07/25/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 05:58:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11202
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Rick's L&N flatcar did not look like a Mantua.  I had suspected it had paper sides but couldn't be sure.  Looks like Rick confirmed that, so we can rule out Mantua.  Can't put my finger on it yet, though.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mantua's flatcar was always all die cast--it might be considered the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> "transition" piece between the early and later cars--just like the "Mighty 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mite" in the locomotives.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 11:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Help Identifying
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Rick,  It would help us to know what material these cars are made of.  The 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > SAL box car looks to be a cardboard sided metal Mantua car.  I don't know 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > if the flat car has paper sides or is all metal.  I couldn't give a guess 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > on the Gerbers reefer unless I knew what it was made of.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>     I'm about to place these three vintage cars on eBay. They are all
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> old craftsman pieces with no identifying names or logos. Just wondering
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> if anybody can tell by the reporting marks who the manufacturers might 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> be.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> I'm planning to put these up for sale as a single set.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> "Just a little touch of madness will help to keep you alive."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>     -Robin Williams
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.29/2261 - Release Date: 07/25/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 05:58:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11203
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Those single-casting ice hatches and surrounding decks sound like Mantua parts.  Sometimes, early modelers used sides from an independant car side manufacturer such as Champion and then used parts from other manufacturers as well in helping complete their scratch built cars.  Not saying yours is scratch built, but just showing the possibilities.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Rick,  It would help us to know what material these cars are made of.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > The SAL box car looks to be a cardboard sided metal Mantua car.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > don't know if the flat car has paper sides or is all metal.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > couldn't give a guess on the Gerbers reefer unless I knew what it was
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > made of.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     The Gerber reefer has printed paper sides over scribed wood 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sheathing and a cast metal underframe. The 4 ice hatches and surrounding 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> decks are a single cast metal piece. It has reporting marks GSVX 1003.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     The Seaboard Orange Blossom Special boxcar sides are somewhat hard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to identify as to the material. The paint has a shiny plastic look to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> it, but poking at the edge of the it appears that it may be very thin 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> cardboard or thick pressed paper. It's hard to determine of the vertical 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> panels are molded or embossed. There's no underframe to speak of, just a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> center sill of wood. The reporting marks have Seaboard spelled out, no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> abbreviation, with car number 17888.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     The flat car is a 50 footer. The sides do appear to be printed paper 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> glued/laminated to the side beams. Again no underframe to speak of, just 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> a center sill. The couplers are dummies that just sort of slide loosely 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> through the draft gear end piece, with a thicker end opposite the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> coupler so they don't pull out. The reporting marks are L&N 26460.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     These all need some refurbishment. IIRC they were all parts of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> batches of cars that I bought at NMRA convention auctions. They're all a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> bit too crude for my taste, so they may go back quite a few decades.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Why is bottled lemon juice made with artificial flavor but lemon
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> scent dishwashing liquid is made with real lemons?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11204
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Rick's L&N flatcar did not look like a Mantua.  I had suspected it
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> had paper sides but couldn't be sure.  Looks like Rick confirmed
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that, so we can rule out Mantua.  Can't put my finger on it yet,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> though.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          Should've mentioned, all of these are primary wood construction 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
other than previously mentioned. The boxcar and reefer end castings 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
appear to be metal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
"Relax. You'll live longer."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    -Arnold Schwarzenegger, "Total Recall"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11205
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The 50' L&N Flat is most likely Varney kit No. F-4.  The reporting marks and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
road number exactly match the picture in my 1948 catalog.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 5:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Help Identifying
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Rick,  It would help us to know what material these cars are made of.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> The SAL box car looks to be a cardboard sided metal Mantua car.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> don't know if the flat car has paper sides or is all metal.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> couldn't give a guess on the Gerbers reefer unless I knew what it was
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> made of.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    The Gerber reefer has printed paper sides over scribed wood
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sheathing and a cast metal underframe. The 4 ice hatches and surrounding
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> decks are a single cast metal piece. It has reporting marks GSVX 1003.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    The Seaboard Orange Blossom Special boxcar sides are somewhat hard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to identify as to the material. The paint has a shiny plastic look to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> it, but poking at the edge of the it appears that it may be very thin
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> cardboard or thick pressed paper. It's hard to determine of the vertical
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> panels are molded or embossed. There's no underframe to speak of, just a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> center sill of wood. The reporting marks have Seaboard spelled out, no
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> abbreviation, with car number 17888.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    The flat car is a 50 footer. The sides do appear to be printed paper
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> glued/laminated to the side beams. Again no underframe to speak of, just
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> a center sill. The couplers are dummies that just sort of slide loosely
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> through the draft gear end piece, with a thicker end opposite the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> coupler so they don't pull out. The reporting marks are L&N 26460.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    These all need some refurbishment. IIRC they were all parts of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> batches of cars that I bought at NMRA convention auctions. They're all a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> bit too crude for my taste, so they may go back quite a few decades.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11206
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > The 50' L&N Flat is most likely Varney kit No. F-4.  The reporting marks and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> road number exactly match the picture in my 1948 catalog.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          Thank you. One down.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
"The cat has too much spirit to have no heart."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    - Ernest Menaul
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11207
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Don D. and Rick J.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
ID of those L&N flat cars is tougher than it should seem.  The flat car may also be by Ideal, as they used exactly the same road name and number, L&N 26460, on their printed, card-sided flat car as well. See the reference in the caption on page 39 of Spanagel's Varney Guide. I have never been able to tell if mine is by Varney or Ideal and would have to compare it to unbuilt kits to be sure. HOSeeker does not have the Ideal flat car instructions, either.  Red Ball also had a very similar printed and embossed card-sided flat car as well, but thankfully, they used L&N 24560.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The 50' L&N Flat is most likely Varney kit No. F-4.  The reporting marks and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> road number exactly match the picture in my 1948 catalog.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 5:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Help Identifying
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > erieberk wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Rick,  It would help us to know what material these cars are made of.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> The SAL box car looks to be a cardboard sided metal Mantua car.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> don't know if the flat car has paper sides or is all metal.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> couldn't give a guess on the Gerbers reefer unless I knew what it was
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> made of.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >    The Gerber reefer has printed paper sides over scribed wood
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > sheathing and a cast metal underframe. The 4 ice hatches and surrounding
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > decks are a single cast metal piece. It has reporting marks GSVX 1003.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >    The Seaboard Orange Blossom Special boxcar sides are somewhat hard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > to identify as to the material. The paint has a shiny plastic look to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > it, but poking at the edge of the it appears that it may be very thin
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > cardboard or thick pressed paper. It's hard to determine of the vertical
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > panels are molded or embossed. There's no underframe to speak of, just a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > center sill of wood. The reporting marks have Seaboard spelled out, no
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > abbreviation, with car number 17888.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >    The flat car is a 50 footer. The sides do appear to be printed paper
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > glued/laminated to the side beams. Again no underframe to speak of, just
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > a center sill. The couplers are dummies that just sort of slide loosely
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > through the draft gear end piece, with a thicker end opposite the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > coupler so they don't pull out. The reporting marks are L&N 26460.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >    These all need some refurbishment. IIRC they were all parts of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > batches of cars that I bought at NMRA convention auctions. They're all a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > bit too crude for my taste, so they may go back quite a few decades.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11208
						From: Nelson
						Date: 7/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I can't help you with the rest of the reefer, but the trucks that were used look to be old Rivarossi, which were nickel silver treads and flanges with plastic centers. It looks like they might actually be sprung, which Rivarossi did for a while back in the 50's and early 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >     The Gerber reefer has printed paper sides over scribed wood 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sheathing and a cast metal underframe. The 4 ice hatches and surrounding 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> decks are a single cast metal piece. It has reporting marks GSVX 1003.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     The Seaboard Orange Blossom Special boxcar sides are somewhat hard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to identify as to the material. The paint has a shiny plastic look to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> it, but poking at the edge of the it appears that it may be very thin 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> cardboard or thick pressed paper. It's hard to determine of the vertical 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> panels are molded or embossed. There's no underframe to speak of, just a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> center sill of wood. The reporting marks have Seaboard spelled out, no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> abbreviation, with car number 17888.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     The flat car is a 50 footer. The sides do appear to be printed paper 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> glued/laminated to the side beams. Again no underframe to speak of, just 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> a center sill. The couplers are dummies that just sort of slide loosely 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> through the draft gear end piece, with a thicker end opposite the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> coupler so they don't pull out. The reporting marks are L&N 26460.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     These all need some refurbishment. IIRC they were all parts of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> batches of cars that I bought at NMRA convention auctions. They're all a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> bit too crude for my taste, so they may go back quite a few decades.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Why is bottled lemon juice made with artificial flavor but lemon
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> scent dishwashing liquid is made with real lemons?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11209
						From: Russ Shiel
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      H'lo All...in response to Rick's post, late as usual...the Gerber's reefer #1003 I have as a set of Red Ball card sides.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Best, Russ
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, 26 July, 2009 12:07:27 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Help Identifying [3 Attachments]


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere.  Show me how.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11210
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi W Jay W., For Comet Models' L&N flat car, they used 24560.  Ray F.W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11211
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Ray F.W., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Ray, Interesting that Comet had a L&N card-sided flat car as well, and shared its road number with Red Ball, 24560.  At least the Comet and Red Ball models may be differentiated as the three similarly constructed Red Ball card-side flat car kits, L&N 24560, MILW 63613 and C&NW 4259 had diecast white metal four piece underframes and bolsters, plus the cast white metal end sills.  (Red Ball Cat. #4, p. 27 as well as other R.B. catalogs.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Why would four manufacturers use only two different L&N car numbers, Varney and Ideal: L&N 26460; Red Ball and Comet: L&N 24560?  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I suspect that the prototype photos and plans appeared in the early Model Railroad Magazines and or Model Railroader Cyclopedia based upon the Car Builder's Cyclopedia.  In doing a quick check of the Model Train Magazine Index on line, I see that Linn Wescott had plans for an L&N Flat car as early as the March, 1935 edition of MR.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
What are the chances that car number illustrated was either L&N 24560 or L&N 26460, or possibly both, one number shown in the drawing and the other in a prototype photo?  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi W Jay W., For Comet Models' L&N flat car, they used 24560.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11212
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 7:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Help Identifying
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Ray F.W., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Ray, Interesting that Comet had a L&N card-sided flat car as well, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> shared its road number with Red Ball, 24560.  At least the Comet and Red 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Ball models may be differentiated as the three similarly constructed Red 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Ball card-side flat car kits, L&N 24560, MILW 63613 and C&NW 4259 had 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> diecast white metal four piece underframes and bolsters, plus the cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> white metal end sills.  (Red Ball Cat. #4, p. 27 as well as other R.B. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> catalogs.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Why would four manufacturers use only two different L&N car numbers, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Varney and Ideal: L&N 26460; Red Ball and Comet: L&N 24560?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I suspect that the prototype photos and plans appeared in the early Model 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Railroad Magazines and or Model Railroader Cyclopedia based upon the Car 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Builder's Cyclopedia.  In doing a quick check of the Model Train Magazine 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Index on line, I see that Linn Wescott had plans for an L&N Flat car as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> early as the March, 1935 edition of MR.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> What are the chances that car number illustrated was either L&N 24560 or 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> L&N 26460, or possibly both, one number shown in the drawing and the other 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> in a prototype photo?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The classic case of that was in the late 50's.  MR used to put a notice on 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
published plans that they were for non-commercial use only.  In the late 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
50's Linn Westcott drew a plan of the Vulcan 0-4-2-T saddle tanker.  Just as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
a joke, he put a herald on the side for a fictitious "Northwest Railroad", 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
which he had used as his private roadname at one time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
When Athearn did their "lil' Monster" and Gem imported a brass version of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the model, both came painted with the "Northwest" herald on the tanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It was not too long after that the people at Kalmbach decided as long as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
they knew it was going to happen, they may as well change the notice to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
allow manufacturer's to use the plans legally.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11213
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Don D.,  Funny story, had not known that!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 7:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Help Identifying
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi Ray F.W., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Ray, Interesting that Comet had a L&N card-sided flat car as well, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > shared its road number with Red Ball, 24560.  At least the Comet and Red 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Ball models may be differentiated as the three similarly constructed Red 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Ball card-side flat car kits, L&N 24560, MILW 63613 and C&NW 4259 had 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > diecast white metal four piece underframes and bolsters, plus the cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > white metal end sills.  (Red Ball Cat. #4, p. 27 as well as other R.B. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > catalogs.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Why would four manufacturers use only two different L&N car numbers, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Varney and Ideal: L&N 26460; Red Ball and Comet: L&N 24560?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I suspect that the prototype photos and plans appeared in the early Model 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Railroad Magazines and or Model Railroader Cyclopedia based upon the Car 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Builder's Cyclopedia.  In doing a quick check of the Model Train Magazine 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Index on line, I see that Linn Wescott had plans for an L&N Flat car as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > early as the March, 1935 edition of MR.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > What are the chances that car number illustrated was either L&N 24560 or 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > L&N 26460, or possibly both, one number shown in the drawing and the other 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > in a prototype photo?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The classic case of that was in the late 50's.  MR used to put a notice on 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> published plans that they were for non-commercial use only.  In the late 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 50's Linn Westcott drew a plan of the Vulcan 0-4-2-T saddle tanker.  Just as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> a joke, he put a herald on the side for a fictitious "Northwest Railroad", 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> which he had used as his private roadname at one time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> When Athearn did their "lil' Monster" and Gem imported a brass version of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the model, both came painted with the "Northwest" herald on the tanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It was not too long after that the people at Kalmbach decided as long as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> they knew it was going to happen, they may as well change the notice to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> allow manufacturer's to use the plans legally.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11214
						From: Howard R Garner
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: International Models & other sheet metal sided boxcars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      > You won't find a DL&W (Lackawanna) freight car import simply as IMP/Takara and/or Tenshodo never produced one, although they did offer roads more obscure such as SLSW St Louis Southwestern), L&A (Louisiana & Arkansas) and N.C.& StL. (North Carolina & St. Louis). Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Not even close on the last one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
NC&StL = Nashville, Chattanooga & St Louis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Never got to North Carolina
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Howard (lurker) Garner
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11215
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: X2F coupler gauge
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Attached are the instructions for the X2F coupler gauge, for those that wanted a copy
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11216
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Russ Shiel wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > H'lo All...in response to Rick's post, late as usual...the Gerber's 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> reefer #1003 I have as a set of Red Ball card sides.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          So those would have been applied to another manufacturer's reefer body?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
"Experience is the thing you have left when everything else is gone."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    -Stephen Wright
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11217
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Nelson wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > I can't help you with the rest of the reefer, but the trucks that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> were used look to be old Rivarossi, which were nickel silver treads
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and flanges with plastic centers. It looks like they might actually
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> be sprung, which Rivarossi did for a while back in the 50's and early
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          Yes, the trucks on both the reefer and the boxcar are sprung, while 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the flatcar is rigid. However, the wheels on the reefer and flatcar 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
appear to be brass, while the boxcar has plastic wheels. They are all 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
slightly over sized pizza cutter flanges, though not grossly over sized.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nobody cares if you can't dance well. Just get up and dance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11218
						From: docdenny34
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The Allegheny 2-6-6-6 that is on eBay is a Winton, version 1. It is unusually complete, and judging from reading the Winton literature of the times,  it is possible that toward the end of production of this version, Winton improved the appearance of drivers as compared to their extremely crude early "Necco Wafer" drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The first version Winton 2-6-6-6 was all machinings and was produced c. 1948-54 or so. There were no cast pieces (and was so advertised), and although dimensionally probably fairly accurate, the detailing and finish were very crude, and there was virtually no way to really save the day in these regards. Even the drive wheels were basic disc turnings. Very few were ever successfully built to actually operate in any reliable fashion. This version was last advertised in March 1953.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The second version Winton 2-6-6-6 was made up of all investment brass castings, a far different, and completely separate animal bearing no relationship to the earlier model except for prototype, the large castings proprietary to Winton, the multitudinous small castings apparently purchased from Budd (a supplier purchased by Kemtron). This production was underway in some fashion in 1955, and although never specifically *advertised* under the Winton name (to my knowledge) , at least one of these very complex locomotives under the Winton imprimatur was completed to a very high level of quality and finish in c. 1957-9.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
All, Winton v1., Winton v2, and MaRa  were all produced by Winton Brown in his Danville, CA location.  At the time between the end of the first production version and the second, Winton gained employment at the U of California, which quite reasonable may well have influenced just how he spent his time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The subsequent "MaRa" version was and is the self-same above second-version Winton marketed under the MaRa name beginning March 1961, and the locomotive model photo depicted in their advertisements  is of the pre-MaRa  finished Winton model noted just above. The last MaRa advertisement for this locomotive was in February 1963, following which it disappeared from the market altogether.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The finished MaRa version of this Winton 2-6-6-6  has to be one of the very finest HO locomotive models ever produced. IMHO, the earlier model is a collector's curiosity at best.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
This subject has been discussed on this list in some detail just this past year that should answer most of the questions posed.  See Files under "Winton" for photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11219
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Very good narrative that explains many things. I have one question about where 
built you might be able to answer. Where does the San Leandro Calif address fit 
in ? You mention all Winton made in Danville Ca location and some of my 
paperwork have that address on it. However the major 3 pages of drafting size 
sheets of plans have  Winton Manufacturing , San Leandro CA on them. I 
had always been told there were two distinct manufacturing 
facilities.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I can assume by your statements 
that there were 2 completely different tender runs also ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Just as when this all 
started I am not questioning the validity of what you or others state but 
just trying to get all the facts straight.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  docdenny34 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 2:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ma Ra Allegheny 
  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      The Allegheny 2-6-6-6 that is on eBay is a Winton, version 1. It is 
  unusually complete, and judging from reading the Winton literature of the 
  times, it is possible that toward the end of production of this version, 
  Winton improved the appearance of drivers as compared to their extremely crude 
  early "Necco Wafer" drivers.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The first version Winton 2-6-6-6 was all 
  machinings and was produced c. 1948-54 or so. There were no cast pieces (and 
  was so advertised), and although dimensionally probably fairly accurate, the 
  detailing and finish were very crude, and there was virtually no way to really 
  save the day in these regards. Even the drive wheels were basic disc turnings. 
  Very few were ever successfully built to actually operate in any reliable 
  fashion. This version was last advertised in March 1953.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The second 
  version Winton 2-6-6-6 was made up of all investment brass castings, a far 
  different, and completely separate animal bearing no relationship to the 
  earlier model except for prototype, the large castings proprietary to Winton, 
  the multitudinous small castings apparently purchased from Budd (a supplier 
  purchased by Kemtron). This production was underway in some fashion in 1955, 
  and although never specifically *advertised* under the Winton name (to my 
  knowledge) , at least one of these very complex locomotives under the Winton 
  imprimatur was completed to a very high level of quality and finish in c. 
  1957-9.

                                                                                                                                                                                      All, Winton v1., Winton v2, and MaRa were all produced by 
  Winton Brown in his Danville, CA location. At the time between the end of the 
  first production version and the second, Winton gained employment at the U of 
  California, which quite reasonable may well have influenced just how he spent 
  his time.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The subsequent "MaRa" version was and is the self-same above 
  second-version Winton marketed under the MaRa name beginning March 1961, and 
  the locomotive model photo depicted in their advertisements is of the pre-MaRa 
  finished Winton model noted just above. The last MaRa advertisement for this 
  locomotive was in February 1963, following which it disappeared from the 
  market altogether.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The finished MaRa version of this Winton 2-6-6-6 has 
  to be one of the very finest HO locomotive models ever produced. IMHO, the 
  earlier model is a collector's curiosity at best.

                                                                                                                                                                                      This subject has been 
  discussed on this list in some detail just this past year that should answer 
  most of the questions posed. See Files under "Winton" for 
  photos.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny S. Anspach 
MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sacramento

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11220
						From: docdenny34
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      This whole matter has prompted me to dig down in my own ancient files to refresh my knowledge about Winton and the 2-6-6-6. Here is what I found (quoted and paraphrased):
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
1) An original letter penned by Mrs. Winton Brown Jan 24 1956 from their Danville p.o. # related the following-
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
- They had started tooling for the all lost wax [investment] cast engine in 1953 during which Winton "lost part of his left hand (1953), and in '54 part of his right hand", forcing drastic changes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
- Sold their place of business, part of machinery and were working out of home. A lot of work being done by "someone else".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
-Finishing back orders on 2-6-6-6 and question whether to continue after that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
-Many parts and complete valve gear sets available but have "long waiting list for the completed [locomotives]"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
2) I found that I actually had in hand all original separate and distinct factory literature for a) The early machined locomotive, b) The cast version (including parts list), and c) The MaRa version (the cast Winton version under the MaRa name).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
3) The embossed sheet brass tender wrappers are the same for all three versions, although other important parts of the tender are different. The wrappers (three parts) share the same parts numbers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
4) All addresses throughout are the p.o. box number in Danville, CA. Now, Danville and San Leandro are in the same county, but not right next to each other, and I am deducing from Mrs. Brown's letter that she may well have been taking in mail through the Danville, P.O. instead of their home address in San Leandro (an address relatively convenient to Brown's U of Cal workplace, while Danville would not have been in any fashion).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
5) It is probable that all the parts for the cast version of the Allegheny were finished and completed by Winton about 1956 or so, all the kits subsequently sold by Winton/MaRa possibly put together out of inventory alone- or were the patterns sold/jobbed out to others such as Kemtron?  We will probably never know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11221
						From: Russ Shiel
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Red Ball card sides
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      H'lo Rick (and All!)...I didn't check HOSeeker last night, but did so this morning...the 5th edition Red Ball catalog #5, p. 31, has a colour print of the Gerber's #1003 car side.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Red Ball also offered all the carcass of their cars for the scratchbuilder, including roof, floor, diecast ends, hatches, doors, etc. Without dismantling your car, Rick, it would be hard to say if it was assembled from Red Ball parts, another maker's parts, or whatever the builder had handy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Your second car, the brown Seaboard Orange Blossom Special, is listed on Dave Spanagel's card-sided car list from The Reporting Mark as a Mantua car, their stock no. 9408.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Best
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Russ
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, 27 July, 2009 12:41:22 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Help Identifying

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Russ Shiel wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                       > H'lo All...in response to Rick's post, late as usual...the Gerber's 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > reefer #1003 I have as a set of Red Ball card sides.

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      So those would have been applied to another manufacturer' s reefer body?
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11222
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thank you so much for taking the time and effort to search out your information 
which is valuable in trying to fully understand Winton Alleghenys.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             This all 
started when I ask the group (and others) to help me identify an engine that I 
was offered to buy that I at first did not see any Winton in it. I 
questioned some things in an effort to find the" whole truth" which is what I 
thought the history of HO and this vintage site was all about. It was never 
my intent to say other people were wrong but I am also dealing with many other 
sources outside this vintage site who are not members but very knowledgeable 
also. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              
To compile all that information, some of which was not in agreement, made 
me keep asking questions. If anyone took it as I didn't believe them I'm sorry. 
My intent has always been to search out the truth. The only way to do that is to 
question and an Email is a poor vehicle especially if words you normally use are 
taken wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
I'm done trying to find things out about that unknown engine. I should be 
receiving it by Wednesday and will know more then. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  docdenny34 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 5:46 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ma Ra Allegheny 
  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      This whole matter has prompted me to dig down in my own ancient files to 
  refresh my knowledge about Winton and the 2-6-6-6. Here is what I found 
  (quoted and paraphrased) :

                                                                                                                                                                                      1) An original letter penned by Mrs. 
  Winton Brown Jan 24 1956 from their Danville p.o. # related the 
  following-

                                                                                                                                                                                      - They had started tooling for the all lost wax [investment] 
  cast engine in 1953 during which Winton "lost part of his left hand (1953), 
  and in '54 part of his right hand", forcing drastic changes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      - Sold their 
  place of business, part of machinery and were working out of home. A lot of 
  work being done by "someone else".
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Finishing back orders on 2-6-6-6 and 
  question whether to continue after that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Many parts and complete valve 
  gear sets available but have "long waiting list for the completed 
  [locomotives] "

                                                                                                                                                                                      2) I found that I actually had in hand all original 
  separate and distinct factory literature for a) The early machined locomotive, 
  b) The cast version (including parts list), and c) The MaRa version (the cast 
  Winton version under the MaRa name).

                                                                                                                                                                                      3) The embossed sheet brass tender 
  wrappers are the same for all three versions, although other important parts 
  of the tender are different. The wrappers (three parts) share the same parts 
  numbers.

                                                                                                                                                                                      4) All addresses throughout are the p.o. box number in 
  Danville, CA. Now, Danville and San Leandro are in the same county, but not 
  right next to each other, and I am deducing from Mrs. Brown's letter that she 
  may well have been taking in mail through the Danville, P.O. instead of their 
  home address in San Leandro (an address relatively convenient to Brown's U of 
  Cal workplace, while Danville would not have been in any fashion).

                                                                                                                                                                                      5) 
  It is probable that all the parts for the cast version of the Allegheny were 
  finished and completed by Winton about 1956 or so, all the kits subsequently 
  sold by Winton/MaRa possibly put together out of inventory alone- or were the 
  patterns sold/jobbed out to others such as Kemtron? We will probably never 
  know.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11223
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball card sides
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Rick J.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
OK, the Gerber sided car seems like it is built from a Red Ball kit.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I just picked up on your mention of metal underframe castings, and metal hatch area castings, both a good sign as the Red Ball kits used sharply detailed white metal castings there; (lead-based typemetal, not hard zamac like Silver Streak).  If built from a R.B. kit, the complete car ends should also be of cast white metal, as should be those black painted ladders, too.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
A final indicator of complete Red Ball heritage would be the milled wood roof section.  Instead of a simple peaked wood roof that almost every other popular manufacturer seemed to use at the time, Red Ball from the 1940's through the 1960's had a flat section milled at the peak so that the roofwalk would fit better, without notching the supports.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> H'lo Rick (and All!)...I didn't check HOSeeker last night, but did so this morning...the 5th edition Red Ball catalog #5, p. 31, has a colour print of the Gerber's #1003 car side.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Red Ball also offered all the carcass of their cars for the scratchbuilder, including roof, floor, diecast ends, hatches, doors, etc. Without dismantling your car, Rick, it would be hard to say if it was assembled from Red Ball parts, another maker's parts, or whatever the builder had handy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Your second car, the brown Seaboard Orange Blossom Special, is listed on Dave Spanagel's card-sided car list from The Reporting Mark as a Mantua car, their stock no. 9408.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Best
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Russ
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Monday, 27 July, 2009 12:41:22 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Help Identifying
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Russ Shiel wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > H'lo All...in response to Rick's post, late as usual...the Gerber's 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > reefer #1003 I have as a set of Red Ball card sides.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> So those would have been applied to another manufacturer' s reefer body?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11224
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
Jim, I appreciated the discussion and knowledge gained.  It was a
good train of thoughts and brought out very good information.  Thanks
for starting it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank you so much for
taking the time and effort to search out your information which is
valuable in trying to fully understand Winton Alleghenys.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             This all started when I ask
the group (and others) to help me identify an engine that I was offered
to buy that I at first did not see any Winton in it. I questioned some
things in an effort to find the" whole truth" which is what I thought
the history of HO and this vintage site was all about. It was never my
intent to say other people were wrong but I am also dealing with many
other sources outside this vintage site who are not members but very
knowledgeable also. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              To compile all that
information, some of which was not in agreement, made me keep asking
questions. If anyone took it as I didn't believe them I'm sorry. My
intent has always been to search out the truth. The only way to do that
is to question and an Email is a poor vehicle especially if words you
normally use are taken wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               I'm done trying to find
things out about that unknown engine. I should be receiving it by
Wednesday and will know more then. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
    docdenny34 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent:
Sunday, July 26, 2009 5:46 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject:
[vintageHO] Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
     
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      This whole matter has prompted me to dig down in my own ancient
files to refresh my knowledge about Winton and the 2-6-6-6. Here is
what I found (quoted and paraphrased) :
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
1) An original letter penned by Mrs. Winton Brown Jan 24 1956 from
their Danville p.o. # related the following-
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
- They had started tooling for the all lost wax [investment] cast
engine in 1953 during which Winton "lost part of his left hand (1953),
and in '54 part of his right hand", forcing drastic changes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
- Sold their place of business, part of machinery and were working out
of home. A lot of work being done by "someone else".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
-Finishing back orders on 2-6-6-6 and question whether to continue
after that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
-Many parts and complete valve gear sets available but have "long
waiting list for the completed [locomotives] "
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
2) I found that I actually had in hand all original separate and
distinct factory literature for a) The early machined locomotive, b)
The cast version (including parts list), and c) The MaRa version (the
cast Winton version under the MaRa name).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
3) The embossed sheet brass tender wrappers are the same for all three
versions, although other important parts of the tender are different.
The wrappers (three parts) share the same parts numbers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
4) All addresses throughout are the p.o. box number in Danville, CA.
Now, Danville and San Leandro are in the same county, but not right
next to each other, and I am deducing from Mrs. Brown's letter that she
may well have been taking in mail through the Danville, P.O. instead of
their home address in San Leandro (an address relatively convenient to
Brown's U of Cal workplace, while Danville would not have been in any
fashion).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
5) It is probable that all the parts for the cast version of the
Allegheny were finished and completed by Winton about 1956 or so, all
the kits subsequently sold by Winton/MaRa possibly put together out of
inventory alone- or were the patterns sold/jobbed out to others such as
Kemtron? We will probably never know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11225
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      ebay item #150360213693.  Just wondering if it was someone on this list that bought the lot?  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I would really like to have one on the Little Monsters, but I am not that versed in locomotives to buy that lot and hope I would figure it out.  Looked like a good deal for someone that knew what to do with all the parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I will wait until I find one that is put together and then I will get with you guys and hope you can tutor me through making it run better.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11226
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball card sides
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Russ Shiel wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> H'lo Rick (and All!)...I didn't check HOSeeker last night, but did so 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> this morning...the 5th edition Red Ball catalog #5, p. 31, has a colour 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> print of the Gerber's #1003 car side.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          Excellent. That pretty much nails the source of the sides.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Red Ball also offered all the carcass of their cars for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> scratchbuilder, including roof, floor, diecast ends, hatches, doors, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> etc. Without dismantling your car, Rick, it would be hard to say if it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> was assembled from Red Ball parts, another maker's parts, or whatever 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the builder had handy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          Looking at the Red Ball diagrams there I'd say the body is from 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
somewhere else. The cast metal frame has 4 cross braces and Red Ball's 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
appear to come with either 2 or 5 cross braces. I thought perhaps 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Roundhouse but seem to be coming up dry there too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Your second car, the brown Seaboard /Orange Blossom Special/, is listed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> on Dave Spanagel's card-sided car list from /The Reporting Mark/ as a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mantua car, their stock no. 9408.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          I see the listing of car sides in some of the Mantua catalogs, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
though they don't provide a photo of this one or the car number. It 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
would also seem to be built on someone else's core since the roof and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
floor are wood and not metal like Mantua's offerings.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11227
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
I did not buy the lot you mention. I however, from my experience, caution you 
about the Athearn  0-4-2t made roughly 1960. Most, that I 
know about, are not good runners and in my opinion have a design flaw in the 
drive mechanism. I'm talking if they are original from the factory and no 
modification has been done. Perhaps others can share their opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  nvrr49@... 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 7:22 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn 0-4-2t 
  Little Monster loco parts
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      ebay item #150360213693. Just wondering if it was someone on this list 
  that bought the lot? 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I would really like to have one on the Little 
  Monsters, but I am not that versed in locomotives to buy that lot and hope I 
  would figure it out. Looked like a good deal for someone that knew what to do 
  with all the parts.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I will wait until I find one that is put together 
  and then I will get with you guys and hope you can tutor me through making it 
  run better.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                      Check out my blog at 
  : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11228
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I would really like to see someone that has done a remotor or regear do a tutorial for web publication. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Check out my blog at: http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>              I did not buy the lot you mention. I however, from my experience, caution you about the Athearn  0-4-2t made roughly 1960. Most, that I know about, are not good runners and in my opinion have a design flaw in the drive mechanism. I'm talking if they are original from the factory and no modification has been done. Perhaps others can share their opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: nvrr49@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 7:22 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ebay item #150360213693. Just wondering if it was someone on this list that bought the lot? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   I would really like to have one on the Little Monsters, but I am not that versed in locomotives to buy that lot and hope I would figure it out. Looked like a good deal for someone that knew what to do with all the parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   I will wait until I find one that is put together and then I will get with you guys and hope you can tutor me through making it run better.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11229
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: 2nd run Mantua Mike kit on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      There is a unbuilt Mikado kit on ebay. Item #320404018193. If it were a first run kit, I'd keep quiet and bid on it myself. But....
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Saint Francis, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11230
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The problem with doing that is the drive design.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Power pickups are left and right main frames.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
While you can DO that by adding external wipers, with solid axles, you will have to isolate at least one side of the frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Then, there are the different versions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have parts of two here from my youth.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The main differences (besides how the main frames mount and are insulated for and aft) are the axles.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
One type has semi-usable diameter, the other a collar on the axle that acts as a bearing, and it is MUCH bigger.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Short motors (similar to the original Athearn) would probably work, but the best bet would be, in my opinion, to cobble a Mantua drive under it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I've wanted to get another for several years to "try" my hand (and almost 50 more years of experience) on making one of these function.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have seen folks say they run great, use specific oils, etc., but I still have the bits, and as bad as they ran, it still brings back bad memories.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The cylinder block, due to the split axles, has insulated collars in the piston area to keep from shorting left to right!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Anybody got a junker, I'm up to trying.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I did a NWSL and Sagami in an old Rivarossi 2-8-0, new brass tender floor and all, runs better and quieter than when new, plus the "fixes" on the early Athearn geared F units, I figure I can tackle it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > I would really like to see someone that has done a remotor or regear do a tutorial for web publication. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Check out my blog at: http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >              I did not buy the lot you mention. I however, from my experience, caution you about the Athearn  0-4-2t made roughly 1960. Most, that I know about, are not good runners and in my opinion have a design flaw in the drive mechanism. I'm talking if they are original from the factory and no modification has been done. Perhaps others can share their opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   From: nvrr49@ 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 7:22 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >     
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   ebay item #150360213693. Just wondering if it was someone on this list that bought the lot? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   I would really like to have one on the Little Monsters, but I am not that versed in locomotives to buy that lot and hope I would figure it out. Looked like a good deal for someone that knew what to do with all the parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   I will wait until I find one that is put together and then I will get with you guys and hope you can tutor me through making it run better.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11231
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball card sides
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Hi Rick J.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> OK, the Gerber sided car seems like it is built from a Red Ball kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I just picked up on your mention of metal underframe castings, and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> metal hatch area castings, both a good sign as the Red Ball kits used
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sharply detailed white metal castings there; (lead-based typemetal,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> not hard zamac like Silver Streak).  If built from a R.B. kit, the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> complete car ends should also be of cast white metal, as should be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> those black painted ladders, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> A final indicator of complete Red Ball heritage would be the milled
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> wood roof section.  Instead of a simple peaked wood roof that almost
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> every other popular manufacturer seemed to use at the time, Red Ball
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> from the 1940's through the 1960's had a flat section milled at the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> peak so that the roofwalk would fit better, without notching the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> supports.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          That may or may not be the case. Hard to tell with the roof walk in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
place, even from the end. This one also has separately applied stamped 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
metal roof ribs like Silver Streak uses.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above average
                                                                                                                                                                                      
drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11232
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I bought one when they came out, it was the wonder of those 
that saw it for all the noise it could make.  Though I did like it's 
appearance, perhaps a modern chinese version would meet with 
favor. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Roger Aultman
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 7:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn 0-4-2t 
  Little Monster loco parts
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  I did not buy the lot you mention. I however, from my experience, caution you 
  about the Athearn  0-4-2t made roughly 1960. Most, that I 
  know about, are not good runners and in my opinion have a design flaw in the 
  drive mechanism. I'm talking if they are original from the factory and no 
  modification has been done. Perhaps others can share their 
  opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 7:22 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn 0-4-2t 
    Little Monster loco parts
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      ebay item #150360213693. Just wondering if it was someone on this 
    list that bought the lot? 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I would really like to have one on the 
    Little Monsters, but I am not that versed in locomotives to buy that lot and 
    hope I would figure it out. Looked like a good deal for someone that knew 
    what to do with all the parts.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I will wait until I find one that is 
    put together and then I will get with you guys and hope you can tutor me 
    through making it run better.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      Kansas City, 
    MO

                                                                                                                                                                                      Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11233
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 7/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Mantua brass and cxast Belle of the Eighties kit
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Same guy as the Mikado kit. Ebay item 320404017234
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11234
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 7/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim and Roger,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Athearn Little Monster was the first loco I ever bought with my own earnings ($5.95 in 1960) and as you both have noted, it was not a good loco for a beginner. I had it for about five years and learned how to take it apart and do all sorts of maintenance to it which was great training for later kits, but it never ran well. Just for nostalgia I purchased one about a year ago and it ran just as badly as my original. I have found that if you use LOTS of lubricant on moving surfaces it will run better. I am also pondering whether or not the newer Athearn motor could replace the old one (the shaft size is identical.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Little Monster was truly a modeling 'dead end' for its era when we were all hoping for inexpensive plastic steam locos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I bought one when they came out, it was the wonder of those that saw it for all the noise it could make.  Though I did like it's appearance, perhaps a modern chinese version would meet with favor. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Roger Aultman
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 7:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                I did not buy the lot you mention. I however, from my experience, caution you about the Athearn  0-4-2t made roughly 1960. Most, that I know about, are not good runners and in my opinion have a design flaw in the drive mechanism. I'm talking if they are original from the factory and no modification has been done. Perhaps others can share their opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11235
						From: Mike Sloane
						Date: 7/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I thought they were a little later than 1960, but I am frequently wrong. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
As far as operation, I never got the two I bought new back then to run. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I just pulled the motors out and have them in a static display - ready 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to be "cut up for scrap". 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
<http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_21.html>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>              I did not buy the lot you mention. I however, from my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> experience, caution you about the Athearn  0-4-2t made roughly 1960. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Most, that I know about, are not good runners and in my opinion have a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> design flaw in the drive mechanism. I'm talking if they are original 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> from the factory and no modification has been done. Perhaps others can 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> share their opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11236
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: International Models & other sheet metal sided boxcars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Howard, MANY thanks for your correction, and I do appreciate it.  While I know the correct designation for this reporting mark, it doesn't help, nor will your kind reminder.  Many eons ago when I first got into collecting (and collecting metal cars as part of this), and subsequently obtaining NC&StL cars in both Athearn and Varney versions, I first taught myself the erroneous road name that I mentioned again here only because it was easiest to think of at the time as fitting the intitials of this reporting mark.  I very shortly afterwards made sure to learn the correct designation, as I knew this was wrong.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Still, and especially as I don't encounter this roadname all often, I have a mental block when it comes to immediately recalling what the initials stand for and I revert back to the wrong identification that I first thought it to be unless I take an extra moment to think about it; and, while I know I should take that extra moment before expressing the wrong I.D., I KNOW I'll use this wrong designation again the next time as I do it time and time again (unless I stop to think).  But thanks anyway for trying to bring this to my attention -- maybe it will stick with me at least for a little while.  It doesn't help that this was not a local Road that I'd have been more familiar with early on, or that it's only a regional carrier, but I know that's no excuse.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Regards,  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ---In VintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Howard R Garner <cascaderail@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > You won't find a DL&W (Lackawanna) freight car import simply as IMP/Takara and/or Tenshodo never produced one, although they did offer roads more obscure such as SLSW St Louis Southwestern), L&A (Louisiana & Arkansas) and N.C.& StL. (North Carolina & St. Louis). Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Not even close on the last one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> NC&StL = Nashville, Chattanooga & St Louis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Never got to North Carolina
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Howard (lurker) Garner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11237
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, Doc Denny et al, Thanks everyone for the continued discussions on this topic, and for helping bring out even more information about the Winton 2-6-6-6 than we previously knew even if we may never know the complete story.  With what we now have to go on, I'm sure there should be less of a problem I.D.ing this new acquisition once it's received.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>               Thank you so much for taking the time and effort to search out your information which is valuable in trying to fully understand Winton Alleghenys.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        This all started when I ask the group (and others) to help me identify an engine that I was offered to buy that I at first did not see any Winton in it. I questioned some things in an effort to find the" whole truth" which is what I thought the history of HO and this vintage site was all about. It was never my intent to say other people were wrong but I am also dealing with many other sources outside this vintage site who are not members but very knowledgeable also. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         To compile all that information, some of which was not in agreement, made me keep asking questions. If anyone took it as I didn't believe them I'm sorry. My intent has always been to search out the truth. The only way to do that is to question and an Email is a poor vehicle especially if words you normally use are taken wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          I'm done trying to find things out about that unknown engine. I should be receiving it by Wednesday and will know more then. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: docdenny34 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 5:46 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ma Ra Allegheny ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     This whole matter has prompted me to dig down in my own ancient files to refresh my knowledge about Winton and the 2-6-6-6. Here is what I found (quoted and paraphrased):
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   1) An original letter penned by Mrs. Winton Brown Jan 24 1956 from their Danville p.o. # related the following-
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   - They had started tooling for the all lost wax [investment] cast engine in 1953 during which Winton "lost part of his left hand (1953), and in '54 part of his right hand", forcing drastic changes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   - Sold their place of business, part of machinery and were working out of home. A lot of work being done by "someone else".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   -Finishing back orders on 2-6-6-6 and question whether to continue after that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   -Many parts and complete valve gear sets available but have "long waiting list for the completed [locomotives]"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   2) I found that I actually had in hand all original separate and distinct factory literature for a) The early machined locomotive, b) The cast version (including parts list), and c) The MaRa version (the cast Winton version under the MaRa name).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   3) The embossed sheet brass tender wrappers are the same for all three versions, although other important parts of the tender are different. The wrappers (three parts) share the same parts numbers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   4) All addresses throughout are the p.o. box number in Danville, CA. Now, Danville and San Leandro are in the same county, but not right next to each other, and I am deducing from Mrs. Brown's letter that she may well have been taking in mail through the Danville, P.O. instead of their home address in San Leandro (an address relatively convenient to Brown's U of Cal workplace, while Danville would not have been in any fashion).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   5) It is probable that all the parts for the cast version of the Allegheny were finished and completed by Winton about 1956 or so, all the kits subsequently sold by Winton/MaRa possibly put together out of inventory alone- or were the patterns sold/jobbed out to others such as Kemtron? We will probably never know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11238
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: X2F coupler gauge
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks, Kent!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I never realized that the curved "handle" actualy had a specific use - for checking spring tension.  I guess if most folks had taken the time to use these gauges back when, the X2F's would not have received such a bad rap, at not least operationally!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@..." <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Attached are the instructions for the X2F coupler gauge, for those that wanted a copy
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11239
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball card sides
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Rick J.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
"...This one also has separately applied stamped
                                                                                                                                                                                      
metal roof ribs like Silver Streak uses..."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The use of the stamped metal roof ribs would steer the ID away from Red Ball as they intoduced the use of cast white metal roof ribs in two styles, riveted and welded.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At least you have the ID for the sides of both the reefer and boxcar.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi Rick J.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > OK, the Gerber sided car seems like it is built from a Red Ball kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I just picked up on your mention of metal underframe castings, and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > metal hatch area castings, both a good sign as the Red Ball kits used
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > sharply detailed white metal castings there; (lead-based typemetal,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > not hard zamac like Silver Streak).  If built from a R.B. kit, the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > complete car ends should also be of cast white metal, as should be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > those black painted ladders, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > A final indicator of complete Red Ball heritage would be the milled
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > wood roof section.  Instead of a simple peaked wood roof that almost
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > every other popular manufacturer seemed to use at the time, Red Ball
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > from the 1940's through the 1960's had a flat section milled at the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > peak so that the roofwalk would fit better, without notching the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > supports.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     That may or may not be the case. Hard to tell with the roof walk in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> place, even from the end. This one also has separately applied stamped 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> metal roof ribs like Silver Streak uses.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above average
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11240
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 7/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball card sides
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Hi Rick J.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> "...This one also has separately applied stamped
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> metal roof ribs like Silver Streak uses..."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The use of the stamped metal roof ribs would steer the ID away from Red Ball as they intoduced the use of cast white metal roof ribs in two styles, riveted and welded.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> At least you have the ID for the sides of both the reefer and boxcar.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                           Yes. I think I'll just put these up on eBay with the information 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
already available. After more than 5 months out of work I need to start 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
doing something to avoid getting thrown out in the streets.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Avoid arguments with the Mrs. about lifting the toilet seat by
                                                                                                                                                                                      
simply peeing in the sink.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11241
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W., Found the three Red Ball flat cars, including the L&N 24560 flat car, that you mentioned in my R.B. Catalog #4 as well (on pg 27), although the later R.B. catalogs seem to have discontinued them.  Anyway, in checking it out, I suddenly realized that Rick's flat car is similar in length, but did not take particular notice of it when first looking at it since he mentioned this car as being a 50 footer.  Going back to those pics, and with the ruler along side, it looks much closer to 40' rather than 50', which would make a big difference in trying to I.D. it.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
While car side numbers are sometimes duplicated by different manufacturers in the early years of model railroading with cardboard sides, I seem to notice that such practices are seldom followed in wood or metal side cars, once they came on the market.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Ray F.W., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Ray, Interesting that Comet had a L&N card-sided flat car as well, and shared its road number with Red Ball, 24560.  At least the Comet and Red Ball models may be differentiated as the three similarly constructed Red Ball card-side flat car kits, L&N 24560, MILW 63613 and C&NW 4259 had diecast white metal four piece underframes and bolsters, plus the cast white metal end sills.  (Red Ball Cat. #4, p. 27 as well as other R.B. catalogs.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Why would four manufacturers use only two different L&N car numbers, Varney and Ideal: L&N 26460; Red Ball and Comet: L&N 24560?  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I suspect that the prototype photos and plans appeared in the early Model Railroad Magazines and or Model Railroader Cyclopedia based upon the Car Builder's Cyclopedia.  In doing a quick check of the Model Train Magazine Index on line, I see that Linn Wescott had plans for an L&N Flat car as early as the March, 1935 edition of MR.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> What are the chances that car number illustrated was either L&N 24560 or L&N 26460, or possibly both, one number shown in the drawing and the other in a prototype photo?  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi W Jay W., For Comet Models' L&N flat car, they used 24560.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11242
						From: Brent Buckley
						Date: 7/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for the reply.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
H0 rods I would like to get hold of.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If you know of any.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brent
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /The rods you want...  HO or O???
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Bauers wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from Mike Bauers included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > You might have to contact some modeling buds with machining
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > background about how to make those rods. Those same parts have been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > reliably made by hand since the beginning of model railroading. You
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > just need to study how they did it. It's mostly with simple hand
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > tools, with your option to use a powered drill or modestly sized
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > drill-press.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I hope you do find the factory parts. But if you don't find those,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > you still can finish the model.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Here is an excellent how-to of the classic methods........ There are
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > other, later books that build on this one. It's still a must-have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > reference that is common, had about 30 editions, and is found for
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > very low prices through the book-buy sites like Abebooks.com. You can
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > get one for 1-3 pounds-sterling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Miniature Locomotive Construction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Ahern, John H.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Bookseller:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > AwesomeBooks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > (Berkshire, BE, United Kingdom)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Bookseller Rating:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Book Price:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > US$ 2.96
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Quantity Available:: 1
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Bibliographic Details
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ISBN 10: 0853440751
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ISBN 13: 9780853440758
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Publisher: 2-30
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Binding: Hardcover
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Book Condition: used-good
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Description:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Miniature Locomotive Construction GREAT BOOK IN GOOD OR BETTER 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > CONDITION, NORMALLY SENT SAME DAY FROM WAREHOUSE. Bookseller Inventory 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > # W2-NB-12D14-5974
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > On Jul 24, 2009, at 5:20 AM, Brent Buckley wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Friend and others,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Could anybody please tell me where I would obtain connecting rods and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> valve gear for the above ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Many Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Brent Buckley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Manchester
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> England
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11243
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 7/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
Sorry, the ones I have are "O".  I saw several junk AHM 4-6-0's on
Ebay but that would be an expensive way to get the parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                      ===========================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brent Buckley wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for the reply.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
H0 rods I would like to get hold of.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
If you know of any.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brent
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /The rods you want... HO or O???
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ============ ========= ========= ========= =========
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Bauers wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > [Attachment( s) <#TopText> from Mike Bauers
included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > You might have to contact some modeling buds with machining
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > background about how to make those rods. Those same parts
have been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > reliably made by hand since the beginning of model
railroading. You
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > just need to study how they did it. It's mostly with simple
hand
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > tools, with your option to use a powered drill or modestly
sized
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > drill-press.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I hope you do find the factory parts. But if you don't find
those,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > you still can finish the model.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Here is an excellent how-to of the classic methods..... ...
There are
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > other, later books that build on this one. It's still a
must-have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > reference that is common, had about 30 editions, and is found
for
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > very low prices through the book-buy sites like Abebooks.com.
You can
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > get one for 1-3 pounds-sterling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Miniature Locomotive Construction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Ahern, John H.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Bookseller:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > AwesomeBooks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > (Berkshire, BE, United Kingdom)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Bookseller Rating:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Book Price:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > US$ 2.96
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Quantity Available:: 1
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Bibliographic Details
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ISBN 10: 0853440751
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ISBN 13: 9780853440758
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Publisher: 2-30
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Binding: Hardcover
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Book Condition: used-good
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Description:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Miniature Locomotive Construction GREAT BOOK IN GOOD OR
BETTER 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > CONDITION, NORMALLY SENT SAME DAY FROM WAREHOUSE. Bookseller
Inventory 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > # W2-NB-12D14- 5974
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > On Jul 24, 2009, at 5:20 AM, Brent Buckley wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Friend and others,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Could anybody please tell me where I would obtain
connecting rods and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> valve gear for the above ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Many Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Brent Buckley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Manchester
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> England
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11244
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 7/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: X2F coupler gauge
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Nah, it was a piece of crap and it deserves the bad reviews.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
KC, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks, Kent!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I never realized that the curved "handle" actualy had a specific use - for checking spring tension.  I guess if most folks had taken the time to use these gauges back when, the X2F's would not have received such a bad rap, at not least operationally!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@" <nvrr49@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Attached are the instructions for the X2F coupler gauge, for those that wanted a copy
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11245
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 7/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: X2F coupler gauge
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
The X2F problem was incompatibility between manufacturers.  The
couplers were not alike.  The springs were not the same strength and
tension.  The mounting methods were not standardized.  One
manufacturer's couplers might not stay connected to the couplers of
another manufacturer.  If you could use couplers all from one
manufacturer and properly mount them, the couplers worked reasonably
well mechanically as long as the hornhook did not bother you.  It was a
usable idea until Kadee made the magnetic knuckle.  All of my unit
trains had Kadees on the end cars for loco and caboose and X2f
everywhere else in the train to save expense, usually with the pins
clipped to the proper height to clear rails in turnouts and crossings. 
Anything that needed to be switched had Kadees on both ends.  I have
one train of Revell hoppers that all work especially well together but
their couplers were all oversized and did not work well with a lot of
other manufacturers in my experience. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Donn Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                      ====================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
nvrr49 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Nah, it was a piece of crap and it deserves the bad reviews. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
KC, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks, Kent!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I never realized that the curved "handle" actualy had a specific
use - for checking spring tension. I guess if most folks had taken the
time to use these gauges back when, the X2F's would not have received
such a bad rap, at not least operationally!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"nvrr49@" <nvrr49@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Attached are the instructions for the X2F coupler gauge, for
those that wanted a copy
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11246
						From: Richard White
						Date: 7/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Blue Line roof vents
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 
Hi Don- You are right! OKEngine will sell me these vents, in pewter, for $0.25 each, plus $8.50 per order mailing. I'm ordering 50. Item #2023. Cheers- Richard
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: the_plainsman@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:35:40 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Blue Line roof vents

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Hi Richard W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Those Blue Line Streamliner vents look very similar to ones I have on a older Kasiner/Herkimer car, but cast in metal. Herkimer still sells parts, but in groups by car type, so you might ask if you can buy them seperately. They had a booth at the NMRA show in Hartford. http://www.okengine s.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      The family maintains a museum of all their vintage HO models (and OK model airplane engines)that may be seen by calling a week or two ahead (area near the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown) . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hello- I've recently built some old Blue Line 85' passenger car kits. However one type of plastic roof vent was unusable (the plastic had pulverized!) . I've put some illustrations of this vent in an Album titled Blue Line roof vents (I can't figure out how to put the illustrations directly onto this post). Does anyone know of a source for replacement vents? I've already gone through the Walthers online catalog and looked at those vents that had illustrations. I also emailed a Canadian outfit, Great Western Passenger Car Details, but received no reply. Thanks for your help- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                      >


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      





                                                                                                                                                                                      NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11247
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 7/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I am basing the date on both ads in MR and my own hazy (very hazy) memories of when I bought it based on the house we were living it at the time. It could have been 1961 or even early '62 so I would defer to your understanding of when they were released.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I thought they were a little later than 1960, but I am frequently wrong. As far as operation, I never got the two I bought new back then to run. I just pulled the motors out and have them in a static display - ready to be "cut up for scrap". 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_21.html>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11248
						From: erieberk
						Date: 7/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Gingerbread Stop
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello MSmith,  Yeah, Bob Fischer had a great shop in Warren, NJ.  While I live a couple of counties north of that location, I used to stop in everytime I could, on my way back from either photographing trains or going to a train meet in Allentown, PA (he wasn't very far off of I-78).  Unfortunately, he closed his shop about 10 or 11 years ago and moved to Florida.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
He now works as a board of directors member for the Boca Grande Historical Society, their address being (if you want to reach him) 1678 Jose Gaspar Drive in Boca Grande, FL 32401; phone number - (941) - 964-0320.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
He used to run a website called Black Diamonds to Tidewater which was reached at < http://www.gingerb.com >.  He no longer maintains it, and it hasn't been updated since 3/13/05, but you can still access all the information there (including lots of photos) on the CNJ, L&NE and L&HR -- well worth visiting even though emails to the website, to the contact link are returned.  As you may already know, he authored an L&NE book by that same name (of his web site).  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "morgantownrr" <morgantownrr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Wondering if anyone knows what became of The Gingerbread Stop and/or Robert Fischer?  I am pretty sure the very professional store is not where it was when I haunted it more than 25 (gasp!) years ago. Thanks MSmith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11249
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Conover 2-10-2
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
 I have decided to share part of an Email *(below) I received from a very 
good friend and HO collector Jeff R of CA and Long Island NY for a couple of 
reasons. I have not sent the full names of people mentioned since some I don't 
have their permission.  I think the message contains some good thoughts 
about the preservation of vintage HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                For members 
who haven't heard of Conover they produced a cast bronze (hard to assemble) 
2-10-2 kit pre war. Also later they produced a 4-4-0 ( looks a lot like a Mantua 
Belle of the 80's but not exactly )  and from what I know was sold under 
the Laconia Conover name. For now we are only taking about the 
2-10-2.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
The story involving Fred F. is that he had purchased all the leftover parts 
from Conover and was going to have missing parts made and reissue a 
complete Conover 2-10-2 kit. He developed cancer a little while ago and as the 
Email states has passed on.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                My friend Jeff 
as you can read in the Email has a good idea about how to save vintage HO from 
being lost or thrown out when a situation arises. I think his idea should be 
looked into further.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                The last part 
concerns the size (and knowledge) of the Fred F,s collection. His collection and 
knowledge might be lost. There are also many other people out there who I know, 
most involved with HO for 40 - 50 years, who are not members of any groups 
like this Yahoo site for whatever their reasons. Since this 
knowledge sometimes clashes with others is why I have learned " Never 
say never ".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                 I am a 
firm believer of getting the facts straight because if they are wrong they get a 
life of their own.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Regrettably, I just heard that 
  Fred F., who had bought the Conover parts, has died after a long bout with 
  cancer. One of these days I'm gonna formulate some ideas about wills, 
  executors, old train collectors and equitable estate dispositions with 
  knowledgeable people taking care of sales and returns to families. Then I'll 
  write you. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Think of all the stuff that might get trashed or given away to the 
  unappreciative. "Shave" B., a mutual friend of Fred and me, said it would take 
  2 18-wheelers to move Fred's stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11250
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Blue Line roof vents
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Richard W., Glad you were able to get them. That drawing you posted had looked so familiar to me, even though I have only one Blue Line, have several Kastiner-Herkimer-OK. W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Richard White <toytrain13@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Don- You are right! OKEngine will sell me these vents, in pewter, for $0.25 each, plus $8.50 per order mailing. I'm ordering 50. Item #2023. Cheers- Richard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: the_plainsman@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:35:40 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Blue Line roof vents
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Richard W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Those Blue Line Streamliner vents look very similar to ones I have on a older Kasiner/Herkimer car, but cast in metal. Herkimer still sells parts, but in groups by car type, so you might ask if you can buy them seperately. They had a booth at the NMRA show in Hartford. http://www.okengines.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The family maintains a museum of all their vintage HO models (and OK model airplane engines)that may be seen by calling a week or two ahead (area near the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hello- I've recently built some old Blue Line 85' passenger car kits. However one type of plastic roof vent was unusable (the plastic had pulverized!). I've put some illustrations of this vent in an Album titled Blue Line roof vents (I can't figure out how to put the illustrations directly onto this post). Does anyone know of a source for replacement vents? I've already gone through the Walthers online catalog and looked at those vents that had illustrations. I also emailed a Canadian outfit, Great Western Passenger Car Details, but received no reply. Thanks for your help- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> _________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone.  Click here.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://windowslive.com/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_MB_new_hotmail_072009
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11251
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 7/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm looking at an Athearn ad in the 
March 1961 "Model Railroader" talking about the "New 
0-4-2- Tank Loco"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 5:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little 
Monster loco parts
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      > Mike,
                                                                                                                                                                                       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I am basing the date on both ads in MR 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      and my own hazy (very hazy) memories of when I bought it based on the house we 
were living it at the time. It could have been 1961 or even early '62 so I would 
defer to your understanding of when they were released.
                                                                                                                                                                                       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In 
                                                                                                                                                                                      href="mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com">vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike 
Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                       >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> I thought they were 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      a little later than 1960, but I am frequently wrong. As far as operation, I 
never got the two I bought new back then to run. I just pulled the motors out 
and have them in a static display - ready to be "cut up for scrap". 
                                                                                                                                                                                       >> 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      <                                                                                                                                                                                      http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_21.html>
                                                                                                                                                                                       >> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 

                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 

                                                                                                                                                                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                                                                                                                                                      > <*> To visit your group on 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      the web, go to:
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11252
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying L&N Flat Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Ray F.W., and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You motivated me to dig out my two L&N assembled flat car models and a Varney card sided kit of a comparable flat car to give them a detailed look.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Red Ball L&N 24560 car is typical of M. Dale Newton's quality, the printed sides have nicely embossed details including stake pockets, rivets, a deck that is embossed to simulate wood planks. The two fishbelly center beams are nice castings, as are the end sills, bosters and the Bettendorf T section trucks.  The Red Ball model measures exactly 46' over end sills, not including coupler pocket ends or couplers.  Assembled weight, Just over 2-1/4 ounces.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Ideal L&N 26460 flat car has noticibly plainer sides, with no embossed rivet pattern and just low relief stake pockets and the deck is plain, with no detail of any kind. The centerbeam is a simple wood legnth and the fisbelly sides are backed up with rather thick wood sections. The only detailing of note is two sections of cord used to simulate brake hoses - do not know if that was a kit feature or added by the builder.  My example has a "pipe" load simulated by straws painted black. My assembled Ideal model measures 50'9", over end sills, not including coupler pocket ends or couplers.  assembled weight, just over 1-1/4 ounces.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
While I do not have the exact Varney L&N flat car model, I do have a unassembled Varney Main Line GN flat car kit, GN 67544.  Like Red Ball, the Varney printed and embossed card shows nicely embossed details including stake pockets, rivets, a deck that is embossed to simulate wood planks with even simulated rivets at the end of each deck board. Underframe detailing was minimal for my Varney Main Line kit as it was a Wartime offering and the instructions do not even show a centerbeam. The Varney sides, plus car end sill thickness would seem to measure a full 51' not including coupler pocket ends or couplers.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I don't have the Comet L&N car to offer any observations, but would like to find one now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W., Found the three Red Ball flat cars, including the L&N 24560 flat car, that you mentioned in my R.B. Catalog #4 as well (on pg 27), although the later R.B. catalogs seem to have discontinued them.  Anyway, in checking it out, I suddenly realized that Rick's flat car is similar in length, but did not take particular notice of it when first looking at it since he mentioned this car as being a 50 footer.  Going back to those pics, and with the ruler along side, it looks much closer to 40' rather than 50', which would make a big difference in trying to I.D. it.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> While car side numbers are sometimes duplicated by different manufacturers in the early years of model railroading with cardboard sides, I seem to notice that such practices are seldom followed in wood or metal side cars, once they came on the market.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi Ray F.W., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Ray, Interesting that Comet had a L&N card-sided flat car as well, and shared its road number with Red Ball, 24560.  At least the Comet and Red Ball models may be differentiated as the three similarly constructed Red Ball card-side flat car kits, L&N 24560, MILW 63613 and C&NW 4259 had diecast white metal four piece underframes and bolsters, plus the cast white metal end sills.  (Red Ball Cat. #4, p. 27 as well as other R.B. catalogs.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Why would four manufacturers use only two different L&N car numbers, Varney and Ideal: L&N 26460; Red Ball and Comet: L&N 24560?  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I suspect that the prototype photos and plans appeared in the early Model Railroad Magazines and or Model Railroader Cyclopedia based upon the Car Builder's Cyclopedia.  In doing a quick check of the Model Train Magazine Index on line, I see that Linn Wescott had plans for an L&N Flat car as early as the March, 1935 edition of MR.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > What are the chances that car number illustrated was either L&N 24560 or L&N 26460, or possibly both, one number shown in the drawing and the other in a prototype photo?  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Hi W Jay W., For Comet Models' L&N flat car, they used 24560.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11253
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 7/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help Identifying L&N Flat Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      the_plainsman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The Ideal L&N 26460 flat car has noticibly plainer sides, with no
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> embossed rivet pattern and just low relief stake pockets and the deck
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> is plain, with no detail of any kind. The centerbeam is a simple wood
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> legnth and the fisbelly sides are backed up with rather thick wood
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sections. The only detailing of note is two sections of cord used to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> simulate brake hoses - do not know if that was a kit feature or added
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> by the builder.  My example has a "pipe" load simulated by straws
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> painted black. My assembled Ideal model measures 50'9", over end
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sills, not including coupler pocket ends or couplers.  assembled
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> weight, just over 1-1/4 ounces.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          Sounds like I have this one. The centerbeam on the underside and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
thick side beams are the giveaway.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    I'll probably be putting these cars on eBay within the next 24 hours 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
as a set. I also have a built up set of 4 Alexander log buggies going 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
up. Still looking for extraneous items I don't want any more.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Why are they called apartments when they're all crammed together?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11254
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 7/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      There you go again Don, just confirming that I have senile dementia! (wink) Thanks for the info, I knew it was in that time frame, but being away from all my source material, I am dependent on the kindness of strangers for all my facts.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Next question though -- was the Little Monster released before or after the 0-6-0. My brother had one of the 0-6-0s but it was a year or two later -- but that doesn't mean that's when it was released.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I'm looking at an Athearn ad in the March 1961 "Model Railroader" talking about the "New 0-4-2- Tank Loco"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> don.dellmann@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11255
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 7/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Remember that back then, when Athearn advertised something had no  bearing 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
on when it actually got released.  Two or three years  of "coming soon" ads 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
were quite common.  I think the Train Master took even longer--  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There you go again Don, just confirming that I have senile dementia! 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (wink) Thanks for the info, I knew it was in that time frame, but being 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> away from all my source material, I am dependent on the kindness of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> strangers for all my facts.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Next question though -- was the Little Monster released before or after 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the 0-6-0. My brother had one of the 0-6-0s but it was a year or two 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> later -- but that doesn't mean that's when it was released.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I'm looking at an Athearn ad in the March 1961 "Model Railroader" talking 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> about the "New 0-4-2- Tank Loco"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11256
						From: Nelson
						Date: 7/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If the members of this group can't solve this mystery, no one can. DoctorWayne posted some of modified passenger coaches over on the MRR forum, and one of them (the modified baggage car, sixth photo down) is sporting some very unusual looking 4-wheel sprung trucks. He has no idea where they came from, and they are marked "Micro-Motive," but Google turns up nothing on the company. Any clues?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/157509.aspx?PageIndex=2
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11257
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 7/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Yeah, maybe I can.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have a set of freight trucks marked Micro Motive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Rubber inserts for springs.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Pre-war, expensive (like, $2 a pair VS $.50 for others).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
After the War they did not return to the marketplace.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
However, you got what you paid for.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
These roll nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have some from the same era that you dropped the wheelsets in and bent over the soft ears to hold them in, and they roll like garbage, no matter what you do to them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Hi guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> If the members of this group can't solve this mystery, no one can. DoctorWayne posted some of modified passenger coaches over on the MRR forum, and one of them (the modified baggage car, sixth photo down) is sporting some very unusual looking 4-wheel sprung trucks. He has no idea where they came from, and they are marked "Micro-Motive," but Google turns up nothing on the company. Any clues?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/157509.aspx?PageIndex=2
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11258
						From: Nelson
						Date: 7/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks, Dave. Pre-war -- wow, and they still look great. He said each axle has a groove machined into it, as if to accept a wire pickup.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 Any idea what the prototype was? I've never seen that particular style.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yeah, maybe I can.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have a set of freight trucks marked Micro Motive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Rubber inserts for springs.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Pre-war, expensive (like, $2 a pair VS $.50 for others).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> After the War they did not return to the marketplace.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> However, you got what you paid for.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> These roll nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have some from the same era that you dropped the wheelsets in and bent over the soft ears to hold them in, and they roll like garbage, no matter what you do to them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dave 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11259
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 7/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I don't think my freight trucks have a groove in them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
These two threads from a couple of years ago on this very forum gives some insight, reporting my conversation with Jim Hediger at MR.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
One of the guys thinks they were also post-war, but Kalmbach has all the records, and no ads for Micro Motive appeared afetr the war.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/message/4107
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/message/4090
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Thanks, Dave. Pre-war -- wow, and they still look great. He said each axle has a groove machined into it, as if to accept a wire pickup.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  Any idea what the prototype was? I've never seen that particular style.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Yeah, maybe I can.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I have a set of freight trucks marked Micro Motive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Rubber inserts for springs.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Pre-war, expensive (like, $2 a pair VS $.50 for others).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > After the War they did not return to the marketplace.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > However, you got what you paid for.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > These roll nicely.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I have some from the same era that you dropped the wheelsets in and bent over the soft ears to hold them in, and they roll like garbage, no matter what you do to them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11260
						From: Rhbale@aol.com
						Date: 7/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kalmbach’s advertising files not withstanding, I have 
firsthand knowledge that Micro-Motive was a post WWII company (although to 
be fair, it might have been germinating in the minds of its founders before the 
war ended). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Micro-Motive was established by several engineers who had 
worked together during the war at an aircraft plant in Los 
Angeles . Two of the founders were Bob Lindsey, who later 
designed some excellent motors and HO power trucks under his own name, and 
George Hook who founded the original Central Valley . 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In the late 1960s I interviewed a number of model 
manufacturers for a series of articles that appeared in the NMRA Bulletin. Here 
is an excerpt from my 1967 story about George Hook.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      “ Central Valley was not George Hook’s first 
venture into model railroad manufacturing. He was one of the principals of 
Micro-Motive, a firm which shortly after Worlds War II
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      introduced one of the hobbies first free-rolling trucks 
in HO. George designed the Micro-Motive trucks and developed a technique of 
insulating wheels at the hub with a baked varnish process. This same techniques 
is used today in manufacturing Central Valley wheel sets 
and trucks, and although it is a relatively complicated and expensive process, 
George considers it to be the best way to electrically insulate a wheel and 
still maintain a high degree of mechanical precision.”   
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      In those days, adherence to the prototype had not become the mantra it is 
today and it was fairly common for a model to be the result of the designer’s 
interpretation of several prototypes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I hope this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Have you read the new Model Railroad Hobbyist on-line 
magazine?
                                                                                                                                                                                      Download it free at                                                                                                                                                                                       www.model-railroad-h                                                                                                                                                                                      obbyist.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11261
						From: Raymond Lorts Sr
						Date: 7/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: train
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Guy's;   I play with model railroad ,Europan and American trains.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I use 1/87,  I got this 2-8-0 Consolidation U.S.Army Transportation Corps,0-8-0 Shifter/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      USRA Tender U.S.A.T.C.  ,10 flat car's 1 Boxcar,1 Caboose. I got German Nalional  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Railway)DRG cLASS 17 4-6-0  and DRG Class 2-10-0 Roco,Liliput,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Fleischmann and Lima,   60 feight car's and 20 Passenger car's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I don't  talk every well,get with help my spelling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I live in Gladstone,Oregon.     
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Ray L
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11262
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 7/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Richard B.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I enjoyed reading the historical excerpt regarding Micro-Motive. I was under the impression that it was Harry Weiss who was the third partner, and that he then partnered with George Hook alone to form Central Valley when Bob Lindsay decided to focus on his line of locomotives and power units.  I just spent a few minutes trying to find where I read that, an old late 1940's MR column possibly, but to no avail. Would you confirm or correct my impression?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Are you articles available on line or in any other place besides trying to collect the NMRA Bulletin back issues, as I would like to read them. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Like the later Central Valley trucks, those Micro-Motives ran very true and smootly; still do.  A pair can be seen under the Oack Valley stock car, second photo in my "Plainsman's Picks" album here.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks again for the information,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rhbale@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kalmbach’s advertising files not withstanding, I have  firsthand knowledge 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that Micro-Motive was a post WWII company (although to  be fair, it might 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have been germinating in the minds of its founders before the  war ended).  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Micro-Motive was established by several engineers who had  worked together 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> during the war at an aircraft plant in Los  Angeles. Two of the founders 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> were Bob Lindsey, who later  designed some excellent motors and HO power trucks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> under his own name, and  George Hook who founded the original Central 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Valley.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> In the late 1960s I interviewed a number of model  manufacturers for a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> series of articles that appeared in the NMRA Bulletin. Here  is an excerpt from 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> my 1967 story about George Hook.   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> “Central Valley was not George Hook’s first  venture into model railroad 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> manufacturing. He was one of the principals of  Micro-Motive, a firm which 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> shortly after Worlds War II 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> introduced one of the hobbies first free-rolling trucks  in HO. George 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> designed the Micro-Motive trucks and developed a technique of  insulating wheels 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> at the hub with a baked varnish process. This same techniques  is used 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> today in manufacturing Central Valley wheel sets  and trucks, and although it is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> a relatively complicated and expensive process,  George considers it to be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the best way to electrically insulate a wheel and  still maintain a high 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> degree of mechanical precision.”    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> In those days, adherence to the prototype had not become the mantra it is  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> today and it was fairly common for a model to be the result of the designer’
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> s  interpretation of several prototypes.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I hope this helps. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Have you read the new Model Railroad Hobbyist on-line  magazine?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Download it free at _www.model-railroad-h_ 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (http://www.model-railroad-hobbyist.com) obbyist.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> **************Hot Deals at Dell on Popular Laptops perfect for Back to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> School 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1223105306x1201716871/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D9)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11263
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 7/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Great!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Like two years ago, I am constantly surprised when a question comes up, and no answer is forthcoming, but when an answer IS posted, you get all sorts of refuting of said answer!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I would love nothing more than to stuff it.....ooooops....CORRECT the Clambake data files.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Please publish a copy of an advertisement from after VJ day, with date, page number and magazine name.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I will transmit said data.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Kalmbach’s advertising files not withstanding, I have  firsthand knowledge 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that Micro-Motive was a post WWII company (although to  be fair, it might 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have been germinating in the minds of its founders before the  war ended).  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Micro-Motive was established by several engineers who had  worked together 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> during the war at an aircraft plant in Los  Angeles. Two of the founders 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> were Bob Lindsey, who later  designed some excellent motors and HO power trucks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> under his own name, and  George Hook who founded the original Central 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Valley.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> In the late 1960s I interviewed a number of model  manufacturers for a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> series of articles that appeared in the NMRA Bulletin. Here  is an excerpt from 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> my 1967 story about George Hook.   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> “Central Valley was not George Hook’s first  venture into model railroad 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> manufacturing. He was one of the principals of  Micro-Motive, a firm which 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> shortly after Worlds War II 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> introduced one of the hobbies first free-rolling trucks  in HO. George 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> designed the Micro-Motive trucks and developed a technique of  insulating wheels 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> at the hub with a baked varnish process. This same techniques  is used 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> today in manufacturing Central Valley wheel sets  and trucks, and although it is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> a relatively complicated and expensive process,  George considers it to be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the best way to electrically insulate a wheel and  still maintain a high 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> degree of mechanical precision.”    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> In those days, adherence to the prototype had not become the mantra it is  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> today and it was fairly common for a model to be the result of the designer’
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> s  interpretation of several prototypes.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I hope this helps. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Have you read the new Model Railroad Hobbyist on-line  magazine?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Download it free at _www.model-railroad-h_ 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (http://www.model-railroad-hobbyist.com) obbyist.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> **************Hot Deals at Dell on Popular Laptops perfect for Back to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> School 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1223105306x1201716871/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D9)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11264
						From: Rhbale@aol.com
						Date: 7/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks W Jay 
W...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I had forgotten about Harry Weiss. He was the third founding member of M-M 
and later joined Hook in forming Central Valley. I knew of Weiss but never 
had the opportunity to meet him. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      An interesting side story: Central Valley is now owned by Jack Parker who, 
way back when, was a tool maker at Revell. Parker and his fellow employee 
Alan Armitage, battled Revell management to incorporate imperfections into the 
brickwork of the famous Engine House/Bakery/Printer. 
     
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Every now and then I get a request for a copy of one of the interviews. I 
have only hard copies and keep promising myself to get them on my computer 
but it is a fairly low priority right now. I always seem to have more projects 
than time, but I'll get it done this year. I also have a batch of interviews I 
did in the 1990s with people like Al Westerfield, Whit Towers, Eric Bracher, 
Fred Hill, John Hitzeman, Richard Myers, Steve Stewart and others, for Rail 
Line News. The digital files of those articles were lost in a major 
computer crash but I have the hard copies and need to re key them as 
well.   
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      To 
Dave...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      It would be interesting to learn more details on what Jim Hediger was able 
to locate (or not locate) in the MR ad files, keeping in mind that failure to 
advertise in MR is not an absolute indication that a company did not 
exist. Also, in the back of my aging mind I seem to recall something about 
a name conflict, so it is possible that we are talking about two different 
firms. As always, we need more information.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Have you read the new Model Railroad Hobbyist on-line 
magazine?
                                                                                                                                                                                      Download it free at www.model-railroad-h                                                                                                                                                                                      obbyist.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In a message dated 7/30/2009 10:23:48 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
the_plainsman@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Richard B.,

                                                                                                                                                                                      I enjoyed reading the historical excerpt regarding 
  Micro-Motive. I was under the impression that it was Harry Weiss who was the 
  third partner, and that he then partnered with George Hook alone to form 
  Central Valley when Bob Lindsay decided to focus on his line of locomotives 
  and power units. I just spent a few minutes trying to find where I read that, 
  an old late 1940's MR column possibly, but to no avail. Would you confirm or 
  correct my impression?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Are you articles available on line or in any 
  other place besides trying to collect the NMRA Bulletin back issues, as I 
  would like to read them. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Like the later Central Valley trucks, those 
  Micro-Motives ran very true and smootly; still do. A pair can be seen under 
  the Oack Valley stock car, second photo in my "Plainsman's Picks" album 
  here.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks again for the information,

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Rhbale@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Kalmbach’s advertising files not 
  withstanding, I have firsthand knowledge 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > that Micro-Motive was a post 
  WWII company (although to be fair, it might 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > have been germinating in 
  the minds of its founders before the war ended). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Micro-Motive was 
  established by several engineers who had worked together 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > during the 
  war at an aircraft plant in Los Angeles. Two of the founders 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > were Bob 
  Lindsey, who later designed some excellent motors and HO power trucks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  under his own name, and George Hook who founded the original Central 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  Valley. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > In the late 1960s I interviewed a number of model 
  manufacturers for a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > series of articles that appeared in the NMRA 
  Bulletin. Here is an excerpt from 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > my 1967 story about George Hook. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > “Central Valley was not George Hook’s first venture into model 
  railroad 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > manufacturing. He was one of the principals of Micro-Motive, 
  a firm which 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > shortly after Worlds War II 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > introduced one of 
  the hobbies first free-rolling trucks in HO. George 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > designed the 
  Micro-Motive trucks and developed a technique of insulating wheels 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > at 
  the hub with a baked varnish process. This same techniques is used 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  today in manufacturing Central Valley wheel sets and trucks, and although it 
  is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > a relatively complicated and expensive process, George considers 
  it to be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > the best way to electrically insulate a wheel and still 
  maintain a high 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > degree of mechanical precision.” 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > In those 
  days, adherence to the prototype had not become the mantra it is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  today and it was fairly common for a model to be the result of the 
  designer’
                                                                                                                                                                                      > s interpretation of several prototypes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I hope 
  this helps. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Have you read the 
  new Model Railroad Hobbyist on-line magazine?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Download it free at 
  _www.model-railroad -h_ 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > (http://www.model- railroad- hobbyist. com) 
  obbyist.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ************ **Hot Deals at Dell on Popular Laptops 
  perfect for Back to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > School 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122310 5306x1201716871/ aol?redir= http:%2F% 2Faltfarm. mediaplex. com%2Fad% 2Fck%2F12309% 2D81939%2D1629% 2D9)
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11265
						From: trainliker
						Date: 7/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      You probably don't need to re-key anything if the copies you have are some normal printed text.  You can use OCR (Optical Character Recognition) software also known as text scanning software.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
A lot of computers or printer/scanners come with something already on them.  Or you can look for free software by searching for "free OCR software" and such.  Or it is sold, of course.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
They do a good job but you have to proofread and fix little errors here and there.  Sure beats transcribing key by key.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If you are talking handwritten notes, you are probably out of luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In either case, you could also ask for volunteers.  If there are any takers, you could send them scans of whatever for them to convert or type.  The effort could then be spread out a little with people sending you back a draft for your further review in the format of your choice (TXT or DOC file for example).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rhbale@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks W Jay  W...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I had forgotten about Harry Weiss. He was the third founding member of M-M  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and later joined Hook in forming Central Valley. I knew of Weiss but never  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> had the opportunity to meet him. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> An interesting side story: Central Valley is now owned by Jack Parker who,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> way back when, was a tool maker at Revell. Parker and his fellow employee  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Alan Armitage, battled Revell management to incorporate imperfections into 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the  brickwork of the famous Engine House/Bakery/Printer.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Every now and then I get a request for a copy of one of the interviews. I  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have only hard copies and keep promising myself to get them on my computer  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> but it is a fairly low priority right now. I always seem to have more 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> projects  than time, but I'll get it done this year. I also have a batch of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> interviews I  did in the 1990s with people like Al Westerfield, Whit Towers, Eric 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Bracher,  Fred Hill, John Hitzeman, Richard Myers, Steve Stewart and others, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> for Rail  Line News. The digital files of those articles were lost in a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> major  computer crash but I have the hard copies and need to re key them as  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> well.   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To  Dave...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It would be interesting to learn more details on what Jim Hediger was able  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to locate (or not locate) in the MR ad files, keeping in mind that failure 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to  advertise in MR is not an absolute indication that a company did not  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> exist. Also, in the back of my aging mind I seem to recall something about  a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> name conflict, so it is possible that we are talking about two different  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> firms. As always, we need more information.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Have you read the new Model Railroad Hobbyist on-line  magazine?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Download it free at _www.model-railroad-h_ (http://www.model-railroad-h/) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> obbyist.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11266
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 7/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Ah yes! "Coming soon" was a way of testing the market waters for some companies. If enough people were interested they might also get around to designing and producing it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Remember that back then, when Athearn advertised something had no  bearing on when it actually got released.  Two or three years  of "coming soon" ads were quite common.  I think the Train Master took even longer--  gj 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11267
						From: bayerw@comcast.net
						Date: 7/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Bought 'new' Micro-Motive/Cliff Line lightweight passenger trucks in 1969 from Orange Blossom Hobbies in Miami. I would also like to point out that virtually identical lightweight passenger trucks were sold by Varney, with Varney's name cast into the sideframe, but I don't have a dealer sale date or a manufacturing date because I bought them privately in the early 1970's. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Try Kalmbach search for Cliff Line.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter



                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 1:24:05 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 
 


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Great!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Like two years ago, I am constantly surprised when a question comes up, and no answer is forthcoming, but when an answer IS posted, you get all sorts of refuting of said answer!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I would love nothing more than to stuff it.....ooooops....CORRECT the Clambake data files.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Please publish a copy of an advertisement from after VJ day, with date, page number and magazine name.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I will transmit said data.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kalmbach’s advertising files not withstanding, I have  firsthand knowledge 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that Micro-Motive was a post WWII company (although to  be fair, it might 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have been germinating in the minds of its founders before the  war ended).  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Micro-Motive was established by several engineers who had  worked together 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> during the war at an aircraft plant in Los  Angeles. Two of the founders 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> were Bob Lindsey, who later  designed some excellent motors and HO power trucks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> under his own name, and  George Hook who founded the original Central 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Valley.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> In the late 1960s I interviewed a number of model  manufacturers for a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> series of articles that appeared in the NMRA Bulletin. Here  is an excerpt from 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> my 1967 story about George Hook.   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> “Central Valley was not George Hook’s first  venture into model railroad 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> manufacturing. He was one of the principals of  Micro-Motive, a firm which 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> shortly after Worlds War II 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> introduced one of the hobbies first free-rolling trucks  in HO. George 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> designed the Micro-Motive trucks and developed a technique of  insulating wheels 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> at the hub with a baked varnish process. This same techniques  is used 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> today in manufacturing Central Valley wheel sets  and trucks, and although it is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> a relatively complicated and expensive process,  George considers it to be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the best way to electrically insulate a wheel and  still maintain a high 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> degree of mechanical precision.�    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> In those days, adherence to the prototype had not become the mantra it is  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> today and it was fairly common for a model to be the result of the designer’
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> s  interpretation of several prototypes.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I hope this helps. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Have you read the new Model Railroad Hobbyist on-line  magazine?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Download it free at _www.model-railroad-h_ 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (http://www.model-railroad-hobbyist.com) obbyist.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> **************Hot Deals at Dell on Popular Laptops perfect for Back to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> School 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1223105306x1201716871/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D9)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
	
	




	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11268
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 7/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: excess stuff
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'll give the list a shot at this before I list 
it--
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have six Holgate & Reynolds SP "Gallery" 
commute cars in various states of construction--three are operable--one is still 
in the kit--there are Con-Cor plastic roofs to be fitted--(the original wood 
roofs looked like they had been chewed out by a trained beaver--but some are 
there)  MDC trucks are with them--How's $50 for the lot--plus 
shipping??
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Glenn Joesten
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11269
						From: Don Grant
						Date: 7/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

That is what I remember.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Best,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don G

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kalmbach’s advertising files not withstanding, I have firsthand knowledge that Micro-Motive was a post WWII company (although to be fair, it might have been germinating in the minds of its founders before the war ended). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      Micro-Motive was established by several engineers who had worked together during the war at an aircraft plant in Los Angeles . Two of the founders were Bob Lindsey, who later designed some excellent motors and HO power trucks under his own name, and George Hook who founded the original Central Valley . 

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      In the late 1960s I interviewed a number of model manufacturers for a series of articles that appeared in the NMRA Bulletin. Here is an excerpt from my 1967 story about George Hook.  

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      “ Central Valley was not George Hook’s first venture into model railroad manufacturing. He was one of the principals of Micro-Motive, a firm which shortly after Worlds War II

                                                                                                                                                                                      introduced one of the hobbies first free-rolling trucks in HO. George designed the Micro-Motive trucks and developed a technique of insulating wheels at the hub with a baked varnish process. This same techniques is used today in manufacturing Central Valley wheel sets and trucks, and although it is a relatively complicated and expensive process, George considers it to be the best way to electrically insulate a wheel and still maintain a high degree of mechanical precision.”   

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      In those days, adherence to the prototype had not become the mantra it is today and it was fairly common for a model to be the result of the designer’s interpretation of several prototypes. 

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      I hope this helps.

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      Richard Bale

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Have you read the new Model Railroad Hobbyist on-line magazine?
                                                                                                                                                                                      Download it free at                                                                                                                                                                                       www.model-railroad-h                                                                                                                                                                                      obbyist.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11270
						From: Jack Priller
						Date: 7/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Mis-listed eBay auctions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      No, I am not 'shilling' for either seller, although I am friends with the first one. The second seller had his cars listed AS O scale/gauge, which is where I stumbled across them. However, unless any of you have some 'magic' words for your searches, you probably wouldn't even know thaes are out there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jack Priller
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Presently of El Paso, TX
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Listed under N scale:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Lindsay HO FA DIESEL DIECAST METAL SHELL ONLY
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280377662108
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
UNDECORATED HO PASSENGER BUDD CAR NONPOWERED
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/UNDECORATED-HO-PASSENGER-BUDD-CAR-NONPOWERED_W0QQitemZ280377572116
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Listed under O scale:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Metal Pennsy stock car
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200367254087
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Metal NP reefer, no doors
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200367254863
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11271
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 7/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mis-listed eBay auctions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jack Priller wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > No, I am not 'shilling' for either seller, although I am friends with
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the first one. The second seller had his cars listed AS O
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> scale/gauge, which is where I stumbled across them. However, unless
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> any of you have some 'magic' words for your searches, you probably
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> wouldn't even know thaes are out there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          Does eBay allow a seller to change the category if you make a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
revision to a posting? If so somebody should let them know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                 Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
My eBay Sales
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Honda Motorcycle Shop Manual
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455412085
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
4 HO Scale Log Buggies
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455501052
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
3 Vintage Craftsman Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455528763
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
2 Suydam Passenger Car Interior Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455535640
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thayer & Chandler Airbrush
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455543276
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
3M Stocks & Bonds Bookshelf Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455551456
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gammarauders Wargame by TSR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455559857
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11272
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 7/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mis-listed eBay auctions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      they do--a lot depends on the correction to make--I have often assisted 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sellers with a listing  identity when it is obvious that they are not aware 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of  what it is they are selling--often someone liquidating an estate--other 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
times the seller will add a note to the listing--sometimes it is the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
presence of certain key words that determine how a listing shows up in a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
search.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have seen some real dillies--once I came across  a PFM Fujiyama On3 Mikado 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
listed as "OO"--I kept quiet about it but someone else spotted it right near 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the end.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 10:27 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mis-listed eBay auctions
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Jack Priller wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> No, I am not 'shilling' for either seller, although I am friends with
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> the first one. The second seller had his cars listed AS O
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> scale/gauge, which is where I stumbled across them. However, unless
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> any of you have some 'magic' words for your searches, you probably
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> wouldn't even know thaes are out there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Does eBay allow a seller to change the category if you make a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> revision to a posting? If so somebody should let them know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                 Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> My eBay Sales
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Honda Motorcycle Shop Manual
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455412085
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 4 HO Scale Log Buggies
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455501052
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 3 Vintage Craftsman Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455528763
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 2 Suydam Passenger Car Interior Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455535640
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thayer & Chandler Airbrush
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455543276
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 3M Stocks & Bonds Bookshelf Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455551456
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gammarauders Wargame by TSR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455559857
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
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No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.37/2273 - Release Date: 07/30/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11273
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 7/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The trainmaster was not advertised until it was ready.  It was rumored for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
years, but even Athearn's first ad talked about the "worst kept secret in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Model Railroading" (or words to that effect) when it finally came out.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The ad I referred to on the "little monster" was when the model was actually 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
available.  In the same issue it's in AHC's ad.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As far as the 0-6-0, I know I have an issue of MR with the "trade topics" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
review but I can't find it/.  I want to say it's closer to 1962 though. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Very shortly after the Lil' Monster came out.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 7:35 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Remember that back then, when Athearn advertised something had no  bearing
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> on when it actually got released.  Two or three years  of "coming soon" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ads
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> were quite common.  I think the Train Master took even longer--  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> There you go again Don, just confirming that I have senile dementia!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> (wink) Thanks for the info, I knew it was in that time frame, but being
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> away from all my source material, I am dependent on the kindness of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> strangers for all my facts.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Next question though -- was the Little Monster released before or after
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> the 0-6-0. My brother had one of the 0-6-0s but it was a year or two
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> later -- but that doesn't mean that's when it was released.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> I'm looking at an Athearn ad in the March 1961 "Model Railroader" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> talking
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> about the "New 0-4-2- Tank Loco"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.35/2270 - Release Date: 07/29/09
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 06:12:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11274
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 7/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks! That helps a lot because I have complete sets of MR from 1952 till now and when I get home I will dig through the 1960-64 issues and see what I can find in Trade Topics.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As always, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge on this stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> As far as the 0-6-0, I know I have an issue of MR with the "trade topics" review but I can't find it/.  I want to say it's closer to 1962 though. Very shortly after the Lil' Monster came out.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11275
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 7/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      No matter what form they are in, I would scan them in a s pdf files.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainliker" <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> You probably don't need to re-key anything if the copies you have are some normal printed text.  You can use OCR (Optical Character Recognition) software also known as text scanning software.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> A lot of computers or printer/scanners come with something already on them.  Or you can look for free software by searching for "free OCR software" and such.  Or it is sold, of course.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> They do a good job but you have to proofread and fix little errors here and there.  Sure beats transcribing key by key.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> If you are talking handwritten notes, you are probably out of luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> In either case, you could also ask for volunteers.  If there are any takers, you could send them scans of whatever for them to convert or type.  The effort could then be spread out a little with people sending you back a draft for your further review in the format of your choice (TXT or DOC file for example).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11276
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: E bay mis-listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  I wanted to add some thoughts about items mis-listed on 
Ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           First dealing with Ebay 
policy. Ebay constantly changes things but If I remember correctly at one time 
you couldn't revise the listing or pull an item if something already had a 
bid on it. How well this was followed by seller or Ebay I don't 
know. However you could add text to the bottom of any information you 
receive to help buyers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Do you know some sellers , even 
if they don't know, purposely add key words of well know and more valuable names 
to attract buyers to read their adds. There was one on just lately that was as 
a Hobbyline passenger set of 2 diesels and passenger cars. When you read 
the text Hobbyline was mentioned, yet the main listing at the end had the single 
word Varney added at the bottom. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           I commend all those 
who see an item listed wrong and try to help by sending seller a correction but 
have seen some suggest the seller used a wrong ID and actually give a second 
wrong ID.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           While it seems cruel the 
words "Buyer Beware" have to be followed. As a buyer you have to be as 
knowledgeable as you can about an item before you buy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Finally it is very 
easy for anyone writing text, just as when I write an Email, to make honest 
mistakes and no matter how many times you read it over you still miss it.  
 Honesty is still the best policy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11277
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 7/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: E bay mis-listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hence my curent listing:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 9:39:03 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] E bay mis-listings

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I wanted to add some thoughts about items mis-listed on Ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           First dealing with Ebay policy. Ebay constantly changes things but If I remember correctly at one time you couldn't revise the listing or pull an item if something already had a bid on it. How well this was followed by seller or Ebay I don't know. However you could add text to the bottom of any information you receive to help buyers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Do you know some sellers , even if they don't know, purposely add key words of well know and more valuable names to attract buyers to read their adds. There was one on just lately that was as a Hobbyline passenger set of 2 diesels and passenger cars. When you read the text Hobbyline was mentioned, yet the main listing at the end had the single word Varney added at the bottom. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           I commend all those who see an item listed wrong and try to help by sending seller a correction but have seen some suggest the seller used a wrong ID and actually give a second wrong ID.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           While it seems cruel the words "Buyer Beware" have to be followed. As a buyer you have to be as knowledgeable as you can about an item before you buy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Finally it is very easy for anyone writing text, just as when I write an Email, to make honest mistakes and no matter how many times you read it over you still miss it.   Honesty is still the best policy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11278
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 7/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: E bay mis-listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Do you know some sellers , even if they don't know, purposely add 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> key words of well know and more valuable names to attract buyers to read 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> their adds.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          Probably the most common example of this sort of egregious behavior 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
among sellers in our particular niche market is the use of FSM in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
title or listing for nearly any craftsman structure kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                 Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
My eBay Sales
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Honda Motorcycle Shop Manual
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455412085
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
4 HO Scale Log Buggies
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455501052
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
3 Vintage Craftsman Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455528763
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
2 Suydam Passenger Car Interior Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455535640
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thayer & Chandler Airbrush
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455543276
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
3M Stocks & Bonds Bookshelf Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455551456
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gammarauders Wargame by TSR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455559857
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11279
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 7/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      It was at least shown as "feelers" at the PCR (NMRA) Convention--it was the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
talk of the convention as California was TM territory on the SP--  This was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
back before the "split" that created PSR in Southern CA and AZ.     So it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
wasn't "advertised" as such, but an announcement was made at an NMRA 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Show--this was back when the PCR  show was second only to the NMRA 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
National--gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 5:43 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The trainmaster was not advertised until it was ready.  It was rumored for
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> years, but even Athearn's first ad talked about the "worst kept secret in
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Model Railroading" (or words to that effect) when it finally came out.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The ad I referred to on the "little monster" was when the model was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> actually
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> available.  In the same issue it's in AHC's ad.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> As far as the 0-6-0, I know I have an issue of MR with the "trade topics"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> review but I can't find it/.  I want to say it's closer to 1962 though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Very shortly after the Lil' Monster came out.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 7:35 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Remember that back then, when Athearn advertised something had no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> bearing
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> on when it actually got released.  Two or three years  of "coming soon"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> ads
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> were quite common.  I think the Train Master took even longer--  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> From: "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> There you go again Don, just confirming that I have senile dementia!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> (wink) Thanks for the info, I knew it was in that time frame, but being
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> away from all my source material, I am dependent on the kindness of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> strangers for all my facts.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> Next question though -- was the Little Monster released before or after
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> the 0-6-0. My brother had one of the 0-6-0s but it was a year or two
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> later -- but that doesn't mean that's when it was released.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>> I'm looking at an Athearn ad in the March 1961 "Model Railroader"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>> talking
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>> about the "New 0-4-2- Tank Loco"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.35/2270 - Release Date: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 07/29/09
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 06:12:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.37/2273 - Release Date: 07/30/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
18:09:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11280
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 7/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: E bay mis-listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I KNOW that a listing can be pulled for valid 
reason--it just happened to me--somehow a couple of items got double-listed--I 
had to email eBay that I understood and agreed with the action.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 6:39 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] E bay 
  mis-listings
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    I wanted to add some thoughts about items mis-listed on 
  Ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           First dealing with Ebay 
  policy. Ebay constantly changes things but If I remember correctly at one time 
  you couldn't revise the listing or pull an item if something already had 
  a bid on it. How well this was followed by seller or Ebay I don't 
  know. However you could add text to the bottom of any information you 
  receive to help buyers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          Do you know some sellers , 
  even if they don't know, purposely add key words of well know and more 
  valuable names to attract buyers to read their adds. There was one on just 
  lately that was as a Hobbyline passenger set of 2 diesels and passenger 
  cars. When you read the text Hobbyline was mentioned, yet the main listing at 
  the end had the single word Varney added at the bottom. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           I commend all those 
  who see an item listed wrong and try to help by sending seller a correction 
  but have seen some suggest the seller used a wrong ID and actually give a 
  second wrong ID.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           While it seems cruel the 
  words "Buyer Beware" have to be followed. As a buyer you have to be as 
  knowledgeable as you can about an item before you buy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Finally it is very 
  easy for anyone writing text, just as when I write an Email, to make honest 
  mistakes and no matter how many times you read it over you still miss 
  it.   Honesty is still the best policy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11281
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 7/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn 0-4-2t Little Monster loco parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                             I find one of 
the hardest areas concerning the collecting of vintage HO and its history is to 
put an exact date when they became available. Pre ads in RR magazines, early 
announcements especially in catalogs, books about HO vintage 
companies ( that is why many are called guides), numerous sources having 
different dates for the same item and especially items never actually sold 
make it hard to pinpoint dates. Add to that items that were never mentioned in 
the sources I cited but still appeared. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            My opinion 
only.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 9:32 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 0-4-2t 
  Little Monster loco parts
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Don,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks! That helps a lot because I have complete sets of MR 
  from 1952 till now and when I get home I will dig through the 1960-64 issues 
  and see what I can find in Trade Topics.

                                                                                                                                                                                      As always, I appreciate you 
  sharing your knowledge on this stuff.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Matt

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > As far as 
  the 0-6-0, I know I have an issue of MR with the "trade topics" review but I 
  can't find it/. I want to say it's closer to 1962 though. Very shortly after 
  the Lil' Monster came out.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11282
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 7/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 11:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I don't think my freight trucks have a groove in them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> These two threads from a couple of years ago on this very forum gives some 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> insight, reporting my conversation with Jim Hediger at MR.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> One of the guys thinks they were also post-war, but Kalmbach has all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> records, and no ads for Micro Motive appeared afetr the war.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/message/4107
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/message/4090
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The reason Kalmbach can't find a record of them is that "Micro Motive" was a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
trade mark.  The actual manufacturer was "General Scale Models Inc."  of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
North Hollywood, CA (same as Central Valley, I have an empty box on my desk 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
as I type this.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11283
						From: jimwatermanboeing
						Date: 8/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Trackside Specialties locomotives in Jim Heckard's collection
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      This is Jim Waterman, son of Vince, who owned and ran Trackside Specialties from the late 1950's until his death in 2005.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
He sold a series of PRR custom built engines in the late 50's through mid 60's, including PRR boxcabs models for the P-5, O-1 and the B-1 switchers, as well as a short run of FF-1's and HC-1 steam locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I was recently over to visit Jim Heckard, who has a terrific collection or pristine vintage HO equipment.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In his collection are 3 Trackside Specialties engines, the P-5, O-1 and B-1. All 3 are well constructed and I have verified that they are Trackside Specialties models, based on my knowledge of their construction, the lost wax details that they used, and the mechanisms. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Take a look at Jim's photos - they are some rare birds, since only between 25 to 50 were built of each model.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
His P-5 is a later model, TS made a shell kit for the IMP P-5 earlier than this one. This model has the Andeco mechanism, which made for a very nice running model.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Regards
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11284
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 8/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Don D.,  Good to know the "General" name in connection with Micro-Motive. I had quickly looked through my late '40's MR ad indexes several days ago and could not find M-M, or even under Weiss or Hook, yet remember reading their ads.  Model Railroader had a very annoying habit of listing ads under the official corporate or individual owner's name, even though that name may not have appeared in the advertisment.  Almost as a legal accounting trail rather than a practical reader index.  For example, one has to be sure when looking for Red Ball to search for owners M. Dale Newton or later, Howell Day, (although at least those two owners often did include their names in the ads as well).  Many other examples as well. W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 11:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >I don't think my freight trucks have a groove in them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > These two threads from a couple of years ago on this very forum gives some 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > insight, reporting my conversation with Jim Hediger at MR.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > One of the guys thinks they were also post-war, but Kalmbach has all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > records, and no ads for Micro Motive appeared afetr the war.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/message/4107
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/message/4090
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The reason Kalmbach can't find a record of them is that "Micro Motive" was a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> trade mark.  The actual manufacturer was "General Scale Models Inc."  of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> North Hollywood, CA (same as Central Valley, I have an empty box on my desk 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> as I type this.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11285
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 8/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Not knowing how his personal or corporate database is configured, he knew all about Micro Motive trucks, had ads depicting them pre-war, none post-war, for the reasons specified.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Still waiting for someone to scan a post-war ad depicting said trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I shall "correct" their databases.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "curmudgeon" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 11:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >I don't think my freight trucks have a groove in them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > These two threads from a couple of years ago on this very forum gives some 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > insight, reporting my conversation with Jim Hediger at MR.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > One of the guys thinks they were also post-war, but Kalmbach has all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > records, and no ads for Micro Motive appeared afetr the war.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/message/4107
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/message/4090
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The reason Kalmbach can't find a record of them is that "Micro Motive" was a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> trade mark.  The actual manufacturer was "General Scale Models Inc."  of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> North Hollywood, CA (same as Central Valley, I have an empty box on my desk 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> as I type this.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11286
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 8/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      curmudgeon wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Not knowing how his personal or corporate database is configured, he knew all about Micro Motive trucks, had ads depicting them pre-war, none post-war, for the reasons specified.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Still waiting for someone to scan a post-war ad depicting said trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I shall "correct" their databases.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Here is an ad from Model Railroader December 1946... however this arent 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the Micro-Motive trucks I have in my parts box; they look more like CV 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
types. The ones I have here are of heavier construction with very 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
prominent roller bearings. Have removed them from most passenger cars as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
they dont look like any passenger car of this era. on the positive side, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
they are very close both in size and appearance to the motor trucks of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the "City " streamliners,   and the IC  Green Diamond...  have put two 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sets aside for a  UP M10.000  I hopefully will build  some day.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I attach a picture of a freelance motor car with those trucks. I used 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the sides only, attached to the power trucks. They have no function, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
axles are held by the gearboxes only.   Sideframes are the only 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
"vintage" parts on this thing, everything else is new stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11287
						From: Rhbale@aol.com
						Date: 8/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for posting the ad. This is very helpful.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Have you read the new Model Railroad Hobbyist on-line 
magazine?
                                                                                                                                                                                      Download it free at www.model-railroad-h                                                                                                                                                                                      obbyist.com 

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In a message dated 8/1/2009 3:57:01 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
corv8@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      curmudgeon wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Not knowing how his personal or corporate 
  database is configured, he knew all about Micro Motive trucks, had ads 
  depicting them pre-war, none post-war, for the reasons 
  specified.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Still waiting for someone to scan a post-war ad 
  depicting said trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I shall "correct" their 
  databases.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Here is an ad from Model Railroader 
  December 1946... however this arent 
                                                                                                                                                                                      the Micro-Motive trucks I have in my 
  parts box; they look more like CV 
                                                                                                                                                                                      types. The ones I have here are of 
  heavier construction with very 
                                                                                                                                                                                      prominent roller bearings. Have removed 
  them from most passenger cars as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      they dont look like any passenger car of 
  this era. on the positive side, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      they are very close both in size and 
  appearance to the motor trucks of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      the "City " streamliners, and the IC 
  Green Diamond... have put two 
                                                                                                                                                                                      sets aside for a UP M10.000 I hopefully will 
  build some day.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I attach a picture of a freelance motor car with those 
  trucks. I used 
                                                                                                                                                                                      the sides only, attached to the power trucks. They have no 
  function, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      axles are held by the gearboxes only. Sideframes are the only 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      "vintage" parts on this thing, everything else is new 
  stuff.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11288
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 8/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The "Micro Motive" passenger  trucks with the outside equalizer bars  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
were variously produced/advertised under Micro-Motive, Varney, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Silver Streak names. There may be others.  As mentioned previously by  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
others, these trucks were a pastiche of various prototype truck types,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and not an accurate model of any single type.  All were grossly over- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
wide, commonly hitting or not clearing line side platforms, details,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
etc. The very worst were the Varney with razor-sharp pizza cutter  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
wheels that were if nothing else, born to create nothing but trouble.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have often wondered whether or not  the second type of Micro Motive  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
passenger trucks (similar/identical to CV) depicted in at least one MR  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
ad  with the inboard equalizer bars (a vastly-superior model of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
real thing) were ever produced under the M-M name.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
These latter passenger trucks, so popular with CV customers, were   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
produced/copied by a host of wannabes, including American Beauty, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
a number of Japanese shops.  Ironically,  as accurate a model as it  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
is, the prototype was only used on a fairly small number of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
distinctive coaches, notably the Osgood-Bradley/Pullman cars for the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
B&M, NH, BAR, Seaboard, LV, and Cotton Belt, and almost no where  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
else.  They are also a reasonable "stand-in" for the trucks under the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
very earliest, but quite numerous, Milwaukee Road Hiawatha cars of 1934.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Okoboji, IA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11289
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 8/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      > Ironically,  as accurate a model as it  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> is, the prototype was only used on a fairly small number of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> distinctive coaches, notably the Osgood-Bradley/Pullman cars for the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> B&M, NH, BAR, Seaboard, LV, and Cotton Belt, and almost no where  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> else.  They are also a reasonable "stand-in" for the trucks under the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> very earliest, but quite numerous, Milwaukee Road Hiawatha cars of 1934.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Thats exactly where I have put them - under the E&B Valley Osgood 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Bradley cars, and under the Nickel Plate 1934 Hi set. Both types of cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
greatly benefitted from this swap. I also plan to use them for the NYC 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mercury set I got without trucks - not sure if they are 100% accurate 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
but from the heritage of those prototype cars they cant be very wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11290
						From: bayerw@comcast.net
						Date: 8/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Strange as it may seem, my Varney trucks run fine on code 70 track, and they are definetly not "pizza cutters". The wheel flanges are not RP-25, but they are not much larger or sharper. They are the original wheels too. I think Don can confirm what I am writing here.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter



                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2009 8:51:43 AM GMT -04:00 Georgetown
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 
 


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      The "Micro Motive" passenger  trucks with the outside equalizer bars  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
were variously produced/advertised under Micro-Motive, Varney, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Silver Streak names. There may be others.  As mentioned previously by  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
others, these trucks were a pastiche of various prototype truck types,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and not an accurate model of any single type.  All were grossly over- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
wide, commonly hitting or not clearing line side platforms, details,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
etc. The very worst were the Varney with razor-sharp pizza cutter  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
wheels that were if nothing else, born to create nothing but trouble.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have often wondered whether or not  the second type of Micro Motive  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
passenger trucks (similar/identical to CV) depicted in at least one MR  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
ad  with the inboard equalizer bars (a vastly-superior model of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
real thing) were ever produced under the M-M name.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
These latter passenger trucks, so popular with CV customers, were   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
produced/copied by a host of wannabes, including American Beauty, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
a number of Japanese shops.  Ironically,  as accurate a model as it  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
is, the prototype was only used on a fairly small number of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
distinctive coaches, notably the Osgood-Bradley/Pullman cars for the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
B&M, NH, BAR, Seaboard, LV, and Cotton Belt, and almost no where  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
else.  They are also a reasonable "stand-in" for the trucks under the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
very earliest, but quite numerous, Milwaukee Road Hiawatha cars of 1934.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Okoboji, IA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
	
	




	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11291
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      the Varney wheels I referred to as "pizza cutters" 
were the one-piece nylon wheelsets--I think they came out after 1950.  
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  bayerw@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 7:58 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Micro-Motive 
  passenger coach trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Strange 
  as it may seem, my Varney trucks run fine on code 70 track, and they are 
  definetly not "pizza cutters". The wheel flanges are not RP-25, but they are 
  not much larger or sharper. They are the original wheels too. I think Don can 
  confirm what I am writing here.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter



                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original 
  Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2009 8:51:43 AM GMT 
  -04:00 Georgetown
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach 
  trucks

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      The "Micro Motive" passenger trucks with the outside equalizer bars 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      were variously produced/advertised under Micro-Motive, Varney, and 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Silver Streak names. There may be others. As mentioned previously by 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      others, these trucks were a pastiche of various prototype truck types, 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      and not an accurate model of any single type. All were grossly over- 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      wide, commonly hitting or not clearing line side platforms, details, 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      etc. The very worst were the Varney with razor-sharp pizza cutter 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      wheels that were if nothing else, born to create nothing but 
  trouble.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have often wondered whether or not the second type of Micro 
  Motive 
                                                                                                                                                                                      passenger trucks (similar/identical to CV) depicted in at least one 
  MR 
                                                                                                                                                                                      ad with the inboard equalizer bars (a vastly-superior model of the 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      real thing) were ever produced under the M-M name.

                                                                                                                                                                                      These latter 
  passenger trucks, so popular with CV customers, were 
                                                                                                                                                                                      produced/copied by a 
  host of wannabes, including American Beauty, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      a number of Japanese 
  shops. Ironically, as accurate a model as it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      is, the prototype was only 
  used on a fairly small number of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      distinctive coaches, notably the 
  Osgood-Bradley/Pullman cars for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      B&M, NH, BAR, Seaboard, LV, and 
  Cotton Belt, and almost no where 
                                                                                                                                                                                      else. They are also a reasonable 
  "stand-in" for the trucks under the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      very earliest, but quite numerous, 
  Milwaukee Road Hiawatha cars of 1934.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny S. Anspach 
  MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      Okoboji, IA

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

  

  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
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  Date: 08/01/09 18:04:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11292
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 8/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The cars I built for Walter with the Varney trucks were road tested on my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
layout with it's far from perfect track before I sent them off to him, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
they ran beautifully.  The flanges, while deeper than RP-25, were in no way 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
"pizza cutters".  I would compare them favorably with the earlier Central 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Valley (pre CV-3) wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I will admit, these wheelsets DID have nicer wheels than some original 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Varney diecast 4 wheel Pennsy roller bearings I'm running.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: <bayerw@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 9:58 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Strange as it may seem, my Varney trucks run fine on code 70 track, and they 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
are definetly not "pizza cutters". The wheel flanges are not RP-25, but they 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
are not much larger or sharper. They are the original wheels too. I think 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don can confirm what I am writing here.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Walter
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2009 8:51:43 AM GMT -04:00 Georgetown
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The "Micro Motive" passenger trucks with the outside equalizer bars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
were variously produced/advertised under Micro-Motive, Varney, and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Silver Streak names. There may be others. As mentioned previously by
                                                                                                                                                                                      
others, these trucks were a pastiche of various prototype truck types,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and not an accurate model of any single type. All were grossly over-
                                                                                                                                                                                      
wide, commonly hitting or not clearing line side platforms, details,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
etc. The very worst were the Varney with razor-sharp pizza cutter
                                                                                                                                                                                      
wheels that were if nothing else, born to create nothing but trouble.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have often wondered whether or not the second type of Micro Motive
                                                                                                                                                                                      
passenger trucks (similar/identical to CV) depicted in at least one MR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
ad with the inboard equalizer bars (a vastly-superior model of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
real thing) were ever produced under the M-M name.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
These latter passenger trucks, so popular with CV customers, were
                                                                                                                                                                                      
produced/copied by a host of wannabes, including American Beauty, and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
a number of Japanese shops. Ironically, as accurate a model as it
                                                                                                                                                                                      
is, the prototype was only used on a fairly small number of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
distinctive coaches, notably the Osgood-Bradley/Pullman cars for the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
B&M, NH, BAR, Seaboard, LV, and Cotton Belt, and almost no where
                                                                                                                                                                                      
else. They are also a reasonable "stand-in" for the trucks under the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
very earliest, but quite numerous, Milwaukee Road Hiawatha cars of 1934.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Okoboji, IA 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11293
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 8/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Gerold Eckl wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >> Ironically,  as accurate a model as it  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> is, the prototype was only used on a fairly small number of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> distinctive coaches, notably the Osgood-Bradley/Pullman cars for the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> B&M, NH, BAR, Seaboard, LV, and Cotton Belt, and almost no where  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> else.  They are also a reasonable "stand-in" for the trucks under the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> very earliest, but quite numerous, Milwaukee Road Hiawatha cars of 1934.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thats exactly where I have put them - under the E&B Valley Osgood 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Bradley cars, and under the Nickel Plate 1934 Hi set. Both types of cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> greatly benefitted from this swap. I also plan to use them for the NYC 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mercury set I got without trucks - not sure if they are 100% accurate 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> but from the heritage of those prototype cars they cant be very wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          I have the 3 Walthers wooden passenger car kits that are supposed to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
be based on B&M prototypes. I have them as individual kits as well as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the 3-in-1 set they released. Are these the same as the B&M cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
mentioned above for which the CV trucks are a match?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                 Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
My eBay Items
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Honda Motorcycle Shop Manual
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455412085
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
4 HO Scale Log Buggies
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455501052
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
3 Vintage Craftsman Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455528763
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
2 Suydam Passenger Car Interior Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455535640
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thayer & Chandler Airbrush
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455543276
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
3M Stocks & Bonds Bookshelf Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455551456
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gammarauders Wargame by TSR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455559857
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Marvel Punisher P.O.V. Graphic Novel, 4 Issues
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456562167
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Olympus Digital SLR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456577015
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
HO Scale Cottage, Built & Ready To Use
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456583640
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
HO Ambroid CB&Q Dynamometer Car Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456589993
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11294
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 8/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  
  

 
Rick Jones wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Gerold Eckl wrote:
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Ironically,  as accurate a model as it  
is, the prototype was only used on a fairly small number of  
distinctive coaches, notably the Osgood-Bradley/Pullman cars for the  
B&M, NH, BAR, Seaboard, LV, and Cotton Belt, and almost no where  
else.  They are also a reasonable "stand-in" for the trucks under the  
very earliest, but quite numerous, Milwaukee Road Hiawatha cars of 1934.
  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Thats exactly where I have put them - under the E&B Valley Osgood 
Bradley cars, and under the Nickel Plate 1934 Hi set. Both types of cars 
greatly benefitted from this swap. I also plan to use them for the NYC 
Mercury set I got without trucks - not sure if they are 100% accurate 
but from the heritage of those prototype cars they cant be very wrong.
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          I have the 3 Walthers wooden passenger car kits that are supposed to 
be based on B&M prototypes. I have them as individual kits as well as 
the 3-in-1 set they released. Are these the same as the B&M cars 
mentioned above for which the CV trucks are a match?
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Rick, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I am not familiar with the Walthers cars you mention - the prototype
cars I am talking about were known as "American Flyer" cars. I attach a
picture of two of my cars so you may compare if we speak of the same
type. Have two in SP Daylight scheme also. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11295
						From: docdenny34
						Date: 8/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >     I have the 3 Walthers wooden passenger car kits that are supposed to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> be based on B&M prototypes. I have them as individual kits as well as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the 3-in-1 set they released. Are these the same as the B&M cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> mentioned above for which the CV trucks are a match?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      To my knowledge, Walthers never produced models of the very handsome Osgood-Bradley 'American Flyer' cars. It neither fit the standard side sizes nor the roof types from which Walthers drew their model designs.  American Flyer did produce foreshortened, and slightly wide heavy-gauge, heavy weight cast-metal models of this car, the only maker prior to E&B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I cannot recall, but I think American Flyer may have also produced them in plastic after WWII. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
There is at least one brass import model.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
There may be others that I am unaware of.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Rapido is now producing superb plastic RTR models of these cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11296
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 8/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Gerold Eckl wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>     I have the 3 Walthers wooden passenger car kits that are supposed to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> be based on B&M prototypes. I have them as individual kits as well as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> the 3-in-1 set they released. Are these the same as the B&M cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> mentioned above for which the CV trucks are a match?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I am not familiar with the Walthers cars you mention - the prototype 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> cars I am talking about were known as "American Flyer" cars. I attach a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> picture of two of my cars so you may compare if we speak of the same 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> type. Have two in SP Daylight scheme also.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          Oh, no, those are nothing like the Walthers cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                 Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
My eBay Items
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Honda Motorcycle Shop Manual
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455412085
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
4 HO Scale Log Buggies
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455501052
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
3 Vintage Craftsman Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455528763
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
2 Suydam Passenger Car Interior Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455535640
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thayer & Chandler Airbrush
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455543276
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
3M Stocks & Bonds Bookshelf Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455551456
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gammarauders Wargame by TSR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455559857
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Marvel Punisher P.O.V. Graphic Novel, 4 Issues
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456562167
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Olympus Digital SLR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456577015
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
HO Scale Cottage, Built & Ready To Use
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456583640
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
HO Ambroid CB&Q Dynamometer Car Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456589993
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11297
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Wood cars?  B&M prototype?  Sounds like Ambroid/Northeastern Scale Models to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
me--gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 4:56 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gerold Eckl wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>     I have the 3 Walthers wooden passenger car kits that are supposed to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> be based on B&M prototypes. I have them as individual kits as well as
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> the 3-in-1 set they released. Are these the same as the B&M cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> mentioned above for which the CV trucks are a match?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I am not familiar with the Walthers cars you mention - the prototype
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> cars I am talking about were known as "American Flyer" cars. I attach a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> picture of two of my cars so you may compare if we speak of the same
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> type. Have two in SP Daylight scheme also.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Oh, no, those are nothing like the Walthers cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                 Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> My eBay Items
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Honda Motorcycle Shop Manual
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455412085
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 4 HO Scale Log Buggies
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455501052
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 3 Vintage Craftsman Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455528763
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 2 Suydam Passenger Car Interior Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455535640
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thayer & Chandler Airbrush
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455543276
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 3M Stocks & Bonds Bookshelf Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455551456
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gammarauders Wargame by TSR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455559857
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Marvel Punisher P.O.V. Graphic Novel, 4 Issues
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456562167
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Olympus Digital SLR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456577015
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> HO Scale Cottage, Built & Ready To Use
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456583640
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> HO Ambroid CB&Q Dynamometer Car Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456589993
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11298
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 8/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Glenn476 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Wood cars?  B&M prototype?  Sounds like Ambroid/Northeastern Scale Models to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> me--gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          Oops! Yes, I think that's correct. Guess I was having a mind fart.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                 Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
My eBay Items
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Honda Motorcycle Shop Manual
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455412085
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
4 HO Scale Log Buggies
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455501052
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
3 Vintage Craftsman Freight Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455528763
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
2 Suydam Passenger Car Interior Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455535640
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thayer & Chandler Airbrush
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455543276
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
3M Stocks & Bonds Bookshelf Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455551456
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gammarauders Wargame by TSR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260455559857
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Marvel Punisher P.O.V. Graphic Novel, 4 Issues
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456562167
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Olympus Digital SLR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456577015
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
HO Scale Cottage, Built & Ready To Use
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456583640
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
HO Ambroid CB&Q Dynamometer Car Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456589993
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11299
						From: bayerw@comcast.net
						Date: 8/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Gilbert did produce them in dark green plastic, built up, cast metal underbody, talgo trucks with their 'automatic' couplers, lettered for the NH. Don't think they were sold singly, but only in set with the NYC Hudson and a circle of track. Got the set as a Christmas present in 1949.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter



                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "docdenny34" <danspach@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2009 6:20:32 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 
 


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     I have the 3 Walthers wooden passenger car kits that are supposed to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> be based on B&M prototypes. I have them as individual kits as well as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the 3-in-1 set they released. Are these the same as the B&M cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> mentioned above for which the CV trucks are a match?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
To my knowledge, Walthers never produced models of the very handsome Osgood-Bradley 'American Flyer' cars. It neither fit the standard side sizes nor the roof types from which Walthers drew their model designs.  American Flyer did produce foreshortened, and slightly wide heavy-gauge, heavy weight cast-metal models of this car, the only maker prior to E&B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I cannot recall, but I think American Flyer may have also produced them in plastic after WWII. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
There is at least one brass import model.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
There may be others that I am unaware of.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Rapido is now producing superb plastic RTR models of these cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny    
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
	
	




	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11300
						From: erieberk
						Date: 8/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      These "American Flyer" cars WERE offered singly, as shown in A.C. Gilbert's 1949 catalog -- both, the catalog # HO-133 "N.H." Baggage and Mail Car and the # HO-135 "N.H." Passenger Coach, @ $4.50 each (Denver and west. $4.75 each).  As nice as these models were, they were shorties, at 9" long (not full length).  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bayerw@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gilbert did produce them in dark green plastic, built up, cast metal underbody, talgo trucks with their 'automatic' couplers, lettered for the NH. Don't think they were sold singly, but only in set with the NYC Hudson and a circle of track. Got the set as a Christmas present in 1949. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Walter 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "docdenny34" <danspach@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2009 6:20:32 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com , Rick Jones <r.t.jones@> wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I have the 3 Walthers wooden passenger car kits that are supposed to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > be based on B&M prototypes. I have them as individual kits as well as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > the 3-in-1 set they released. Are these the same as the B&M cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > mentioned above for which the CV trucks are a match? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To my knowledge, Walthers never produced models of the very handsome Osgood-Bradley 'American Flyer' cars. It neither fit the standard side sizes nor the roof types from which Walthers drew their model designs. American Flyer did produce foreshortened, and slightly wide heavy-gauge, heavy weight cast-metal models of this car, the only maker prior to E&B. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I cannot recall, but I think American Flyer may have also produced them in plastic after WWII. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There is at least one brass import model. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There may be others that I am unaware of. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Rapido is now producing superb plastic RTR models of these cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11301
						From: Larry
						Date: 8/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: HO Companies No Longer with US
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From another HO Group of interest to this one...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.hoseeker.org/lit.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      A few HO fallen flags including some traction

                                                                                                                                                                                      George Barsky

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11302
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 8/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Walter B., 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Those Gilbert HO New Haven Osgood Bradley coachers were also sold singly and in kits as well and are pictured in orignal boxes in the Doyle American Flyer Guide published a few years ago.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In addition, Gilbert also manufactured them in an all diecast metal version before WW 2, as catalog #208 assembled or HO-9 kit.  A number of years ago, I came across a set of three of the dicast ones at a train show, completely stripped of all paint.  I'm sure the Gilbert collectors all winced, but they were fine for an HO scale modeler to repaint. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No vendor at the tsble, I figured on coming back and making the deal, but did not, to my regret as they were most reasonbly priced to begin with and well proportioned.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
One thing for sure, you were one happy and lucky kid back in 1949!  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bayerw@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gilbert did produce them in dark green plastic, built up, cast metal underbody, talgo trucks with their 'automatic' couplers, lettered for the NH. Don't think they were sold singly, but only in set with the NYC Hudson and a circle of track. Got the set as a Christmas present in 1949. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Walter 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "docdenny34" <danspach@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2009 6:20:32 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com , Rick Jones <r.t.jones@> wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I have the 3 Walthers wooden passenger car kits that are supposed to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > be based on B&M prototypes. I have them as individual kits as well as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > the 3-in-1 set they released. Are these the same as the B&M cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > mentioned above for which the CV trucks are a match? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To my knowledge, Walthers never produced models of the very handsome Osgood-Bradley 'American Flyer' cars. It neither fit the standard side sizes nor the roof types from which Walthers drew their model designs. American Flyer did produce foreshortened, and slightly wide heavy-gauge, heavy weight cast-metal models of this car, the only maker prior to E&B. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I cannot recall, but I think American Flyer may have also produced them in plastic after WWII. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There is at least one brass import model. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There may be others that I am unaware of. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Rapido is now producing superb plastic RTR models of these cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11303
						From: toytrain13
						Date: 8/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      While in 10th grade in 1954, I tried to order a set of the HO gauge cars, but American Flyer told me they had been discontinued. -Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11304
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 8/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: dditional
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Richard W.,  That confirms exactly what I have read, that Gilbert did discontinue HO production for a period in the early-to-mid 1950's, then reintroduced their revamped line for 1955 with some updated originals such as the Hudson, plus new Varney based freight car models and the F-3 diesel A&B.  And this discussion brought to mind I have one example of the plastic-bodied HO Osgood Bradley NH coaches - sort of, it is factory painted bright yellow, lettered Roadside Diner and mounted on a light green sheet metal base, one of Gilbert HO accessories, although I do not know the catalog number.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> While in 10th grade in 1954, I tried to order a set of the HO gauge cars, but American Flyer told me they had been discontinued. -Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11305
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: mantua 6 volt motor
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                               
The pictures I sent are of a mint Mantua motor I have with paperwork. It 
doesn't state what engines it was used with. I am trying to find out for sure if 
this would be the same Mantua 6 volt motor used in the pre war Mantua 
Consolidation. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
 I have gone to HOseeker and the 1940 catalog has a picture of the motor 
used with all the boiler parts. I have tried to blow it up but it's still not 
big enough or clear enough to be positive. Does anyone have the original plans 
that are larger or can you verify what I ask ? I want to verify to make 
sure it would be the original motor used.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11306
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 8/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: E bay mis-listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Those trucks on the Atlantic's tender: Do you know who made them? I have a bunch like them sitting here. I am not good at identifying freight car trucks, especially because a modeler could easily switch trucks.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have, for example, a Varney sheet metal flatcar on Athearn trucks. Old Varney cast sprung trucks, I find, deteriorate easily.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] E bay mis-listings
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 8:46 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hence my curent listing:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 9:39:03 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] E bay mis-listings

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I wanted to add some thoughts about items mis-listed on Ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           First dealing with Ebay policy. Ebay constantly changes things but If I remember correctly at one time you couldn't revise the listing or pull an item if something already had a bid on it. How well this was followed by seller or Ebay I don't know. However you could add text to the bottom of any information you receive to help buyers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Do you know some sellers , even if they don't know, purposely add key words of well know and more valuable names to attract buyers to read their adds. There was one on just lately that was as a Hobbyline passenger set of 2 diesels and passenger cars. When you read the text Hobbyline was mentioned, yet the main listing at the end had the single word Varney added at the bottom. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           I commend all those who see an item listed wrong and try to help by sending seller a correction but have seen some suggest the seller used a wrong ID and actually give a second wrong ID.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           While it seems cruel the words "Buyer Beware" have to be followed. As a buyer you have to be as knowledgeable as you can about an item before you buy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Finally it is very easy for anyone writing text, just as when I write an Email, to make honest mistakes and no matter how many times you read it over you still miss it.   Honesty is still the best policy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11307
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 8/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: E bay mis-listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      At first glance, I am going to have to say Varney. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I can look closer in a bit and compare with a envelope kit of Varney I have, but as of now, I am about 75% sure that tey are Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, August 3, 2009 11:27:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] E bay mis-listings

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sean,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Those trucks on the Atlantic's tender: Do you know who made them? I have a bunch like them sitting here. I am not good at identifying freight car trucks, especially because a modeler could easily switch trucks.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have, for example, a Varney sheet metal flatcar on Athearn trucks. Old Varney cast sprung trucks, I find, deteriorate easily.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] E bay mis-listings
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 8:46 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hence my curent listing:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 9:39:03 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] E bay mis-listings

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I wanted to add some thoughts about items mis-listed on Ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           First dealing with Ebay policy. Ebay constantly changes things but If I remember correctly at one time you couldn't revise the listing or pull an item if something already had a bid on it. How well this was followed by seller or Ebay I don't know. However you could add text to the bottom of any information you receive to help buyers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Do you know some sellers , even if they don't know, purposely add key words of well know and more valuable names to attract buyers to read their adds. There was one on just lately that was as a Hobbyline passenger set of 2 diesels and passenger cars. When you read the text Hobbyline was mentioned, yet the main listing at the end had the single word Varney added at the bottom. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           I commend all those who see an item listed wrong and try to help by sending seller a correction but have seen some suggest the seller used a wrong ID and actually give a second wrong ID.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           While it seems cruel the words "Buyer Beware" have to be followed. As a buyer you have to be as knowledgeable as you can about an item before you buy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Finally it is very easy for anyone writing text, just as when I write an Email, to make honest mistakes and no matter how many times you read it over you still miss it.   Honesty is still the best policy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11308
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: E bay mis-listings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'll check them when it gets here---gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:27 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] E bay 
  mis-listings
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      Sean,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Those trucks on the Atlantic's tender: Do 
        you know who made them? I have a bunch like them sitting here. I am not 
        good at identifying freight car trucks, especially because a modeler 
        could easily switch trucks.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have, for example, a Varney sheet 
        metal flatcar on Athearn trucks. Old Varney cast sprung trucks, I find, 
        deteriorate easily.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Fri, 7/31/09, 
        Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
          Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: 
          [vintageHO] E bay mis-listings
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: 
          vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 8:46 
          AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hence my curent listing:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          From: jim heckard 
          <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou 
          ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, 
          July 31, 2009 9:39:03 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] E bay 
          mis-listings

                                                                                                                                                                                        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
            I wanted to add some thoughts about items mis-listed on 
          Ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                           First dealing 
          with Ebay policy. Ebay constantly changes things but If I remember 
          correctly at one time you couldn't revise the listing or pull an 
          item if something already had a bid on it. How well this was 
          followed by seller or Ebay I don't know. However you could add 
          text to the bottom of any information you receive to help 
          buyers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                          Do you know some 
          sellers , even if they don't know, purposely add key words of well 
          know and more valuable names to attract buyers to read their adds. 
          There was one on just lately that was as a Hobbyline passenger 
          set of 2 diesels and passenger cars. When you read the text Hobbyline 
          was mentioned, yet the main listing at the end had the single word 
          Varney added at the bottom. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                           I commend 
          all those who see an item listed wrong and try to help by sending 
          seller a correction but have seen some suggest the seller used a wrong 
          ID and actually give a second wrong ID.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                           While it seems 
          cruel the words "Buyer Beware" have to be followed. As a buyer you 
          have to be as knowledgeable as you can about an item before you 
          buy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                           Finally it 
          is very easy for anyone writing text, just as when I write an Email, 
          to make honest mistakes and no matter how many times you read it over 
          you still miss it.   Honesty is still the best 
          policy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
          

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.43/2280 - Release 
  Date: 08/03/09 17:56:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11309
						From: Tom
						Date: 8/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Mystery GG1 Please Help Identify
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi, I posted a folder with some photos of an old all diecast GG1 I recently picked up.  ANy help identifying it would be much appriciated.  I have ruled out Penn Line and Varney.  Thanks, Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11310
						From: Tom
						Date: 8/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Mystery GG1
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Forgot to mention that the folder is named A Mystery GG1.  Sorry, Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11311
						From: Jay Wanczyk
						Date: 8/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Three "Special" Red Ball Work Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      A Word About Red Ball:
                                                                                                                                                                                       Most here know that Red Ball manufactured the largest range of printed and embossed, card-sided reefers and boxcars in HO, with sharply cast white metal ends and details beginning in 1939 with M. Dale Newton and continuing with Howell Day circa 1959 and Merle Rice (Wabash Valley and Model Railroad Warehouse) from about 1975 and active today, though the card sided kits were mostly phased out during the 1980's.

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      But Red Ball also made scores of other freight car kits and including a number of specialized, prototype specific cars. Dale Newton was never satisfied with one generic boxcar, flat car or gon lettered for every different road and it is that wide variety of prototype specific cars that makes many of his models not only interesting to the vintage collector and modeler, but of interest to today's scale modelers as well. Add in the talents of John Anderson (later of Kemtron and after, co-founder of Cal Scale) working with Newton in the late 1940's and early 1950's and it is no wonder that many Red Ball models are able to hold their own today, even as the basis for contest-quality prototype models.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      "Special Work Cars"
                                                                                                                                                                                       A couple of weeks ago I was pleased to finally locate (on eBay) most parts of a set of three "Special" Red Ball work cars that were introduced in an artistically drawn flier (by John Anderson) for I believe the Christmas, 1950 season. In it, Santa, standing in the Red Ball workshop, is holding a new model kitchen car and is talking to Henry (the Hostler) Ginchel, a fictional Red Ball employee who has continued employment through all three periods of ownership from Newton to Rice (and has his own on-line column today). Santa says, "Now give them something special this year." Three "Special" work cars: Kitchen, Bunk and Domestic Water Car were offered as a boxed kit set that season, and only entered the regular catalog (#8) circa 1953 as regular numbered kits.

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Here is the flier on HO Seeker:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.hoseeker.org/redball/redballadchristmaspg1.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kitchen Car, "SC" 1, later K-79
                                                                                                                                                                                       is an old boxcar body mounted on a fish belly-sided flat car. The kit has 29 sharply detailed white metal castings, 14 wood parts, two brass tunings and came with sprung "Bettendorf" trucks (Silver Streak?).

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Bunk Car, "SC" 2, later K-72
                                                                                                                                                                                       was in contrast to the Kitchen Car, simply a converted steel end box car. The kit included 26 castings, 11 wood parts and one brass turning and had sprung Andrews trucks (Silver Streak?). In the 1940's and as late as 1950 (Catalog #5, page 18), Newton offered a much simpler, embossed card side and end, four window Supply Car, Kit # 15 which should not be confused with this model.

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Both of these "Special" house cars contained castings for oversized screened windows, sometimes seen on work cars in hotter regions. These castings have a very fine texture to simulate the screening, and would look good on a model house as well! Instead of replacing all the smaller conventional four-pane work car windows, the large screened windows were applied where "required" making a naturally appearing work car cobbled up by a railroad's shops according to need. The weakest part of the two models are the thin card sides and most modelers who built them did not take the time to back the card with a solid backing. Fortunately, as with most vintage models, the old glues have dried out and "re-kitting" and removing old glue is usually possible before restoration.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Domestic Water Tank car, "SC" 3, later K-52
                                                                                                                                                                                        The third "Special" car consisted of a old 8,000 gallon tank car body mounted on a flat car, with 18 castings, 7 wood parts and a diecast cellulose plastic tank car dome. An embossed printed tank wrapper was included, initially in gray or black, but latter offered in an oxide red. Initially, tank car ends were turned wood "plugs" fitted into a cardboard tube, but later diecast white metal ends were applied to a wood dowel. Sprung arch bar trucks (Silver Streak?) were furnished. 

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The three different types of trucks used on a work train added to the "use what's available" realism of the assembled work consist.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      These Kitchen and Bunk car kits seem to have only lasted through M. Dale Newton's years, Catalog # 9, while the Domestic Water car lasted through Howell Day's ownership and last catalog, # 11, (and possibly beyond).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      As I mentioned, Newton was not often satisfied with a single version of a type of car, and also offered a wonderful "Cook's Car" K-126-B, concurrently with the "Kitchen Car" based upon the Overland Transport composite box car with under slung tank that continued through Rice's production.  He also added a 60’ Dormitory Car, K-96, a converted old time passenger car with embossed card sides and individual diecast windows, later a slightly different version of K-96 with diecast metal sides was offered into the Day and Rice eras as well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      At the same time, I also purchased most of a NY Central style K-17 Boom Car, missing its entire cabin. This is the familiar later version of Boom Car that Red Ball introduced at the same time as the revised 200 ton crane, 1951 catalog, blueprint box era. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I need a few parts! As can be seen from the photos attached below (also appearing in my album, Plainsman's Picks, last four photos), some of my new acquisitions are missing a few parts, most of which I was able to find in my parts reserves. Rather than straighten out the warped card sides, (one side not shown was ruined by a poor paint job), I plan to rebuild with scribed wood siding which a good modeler might have done fifty years ago as well. I am still looking for the following parts (new or used) and would like to purchase or trade other Red Ball parts (new) of any kind you may need for your Red Ball restorations.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      For Kitchen Car:  1 screened window casting #146, car side ice hatch # 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      For Bunk Car:   roof end walks, pair B-82
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      For Water Car:  1 cast metal tank end # , cast tank dome lid # , cast tank cradles 3 (need one for another RB model), "Domestic Water" tank wrapper, gray, red or black, cast dome platforms, pair , 3 cast end tap lids.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      For Boom Car:  While I had an extra set of cabin ends, I still need the pair of cabin sides, #269 ; a long step, #134 and #smoke jack, 150. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      　
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I can no doubt substitute or copy some of the parts,  but like to find originals if I am able.  And if you have any doubt by now, I’m a big Red Ball modeler and enthusiast!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11312
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 8/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery GG1 Please Help Identify
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Tom, Looks to me like a FAMOCO - Famous Model Co. of NY, I only have a shell with parts of the pantographs attached, but that is what it resembles. Scale length as opposed to shortened Penn Line/Varney or General Hobbies copy of PL. Diecast Zamac, not brass/bronze like Schrader or Geo. Stock.  I believe the plans are on HOSeeker, if not I can mail you a copy. I believe Jim H also has photos in one of his albums here as well.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi, I posted a folder with some photos of an old all diecast GG1 I recently picked up.  ANy help identifying it would be much appriciated.  I have ruled out Penn Line and Varney.  Thanks, Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11316
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: FAMOCO GG_1
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                            W Jay W is right in 
his assumption that your cast GG-1 is by FAMOCO ( Famous Model Company) .  
I've sent two pictures. I don't know why the camera turned the picture of the 
box. The second picture you can see the pantographs that actually came in a kit 
you assembled and the FAMOCO GG-1. Two assembled pantographs in the box also. I 
didn't take the body off mine to show. If you go to www.hoseeker.net  enter literature and 
then search the FAMOCO file you will find 4 pages I sent that will show the type 
of drives and how to assemble the pantographs. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm pretty sure it 
is full HO scale size, and as you mention cast metal as are the pantographs. If 
you want more info or pictures I will try to help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11317
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Fw: FAMOCO GG_1
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                           Sent pictures again as it 
seems second picture didn't go through.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 5:25 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: FAMOCO GG_1
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            W Jay W is right in 
his assumption that your cast GG-1 is by FAMOCO ( Famous Model Company) .  
I've sent two pictures. I don't know why the camera turned the picture of the 
box. The second picture you can see the pantographs that actually came in a kit 
you assembled and the FAMOCO GG-1. Two assembled pantographs in the box also. I 
didn't take the body off mine to show. If you go to www.hoseeker.net  enter literature and 
then search the FAMOCO file you will find 4 pages I sent that will show the type 
of drives and how to assemble the pantographs. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm pretty sure it 
is full HO scale size, and as you mention cast metal as are the pantographs. If 
you want more info or pictures I will try to help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11318
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: FAMOCO GG-1
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                 Try 
again.  I think something must be wrong with the attachment part of the 
site. I have sent two pictures twice, my computer shows 2 sent but only one 
seems to show up
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            To W Jay W.  
Maybe that is why you can't get your picture through.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           To Tom   
Hopefully this picture of the FAMOCO GG-1 gets though. Add it to the previous 
message and picture of the box.  Again the picture turned sideways and I 
don't know why.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11319
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 8/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I agree, Jim H, Must be a temporary glitch with the Yahoo web.  I tried twice again before, no luck so deleted the tries.  Then I checked right now and the original photo that did not appear at first, has shown up.  Maybe your second in the original post may turn up too, although the photo does appear in your follow-up, even though sideways. LOL.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            Try again.  I think something must be wrong with the attachment part of the site. I have sent two pictures twice, my computer shows 2 sent but only one seems to show up
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       To W Jay W.  Maybe that is why you can't get your picture through.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      To Tom   Hopefully this picture of the FAMOCO GG-1 gets though. Add it to the previous message and picture of the box.  Again the picture turned sideways and I don't know why.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11320
						From: Tom
						Date: 8/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Many thanks gentlement for the information.  I knew someone here would be able to help me out.  I will be listing it on Ebay in the next day or two if anyone is interested.  Looks like a great old piece.  Seller ID is thare3trains.  Warm regards, Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I agree, Jim H, Must be a temporary glitch with the Yahoo web.  I tried twice again before, no luck so deleted the tries.  Then I checked right now and the original photo that did not appear at first, has shown up.  Maybe your second in the original post may turn up too, although the photo does appear in your follow-up, even though sideways. LOL.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >            Try again.  I think something must be wrong with the attachment part of the site. I have sent two pictures twice, my computer shows 2 sent but only one seems to show up
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >       To W Jay W.  Maybe that is why you can't get your picture through.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >      To Tom   Hopefully this picture of the FAMOCO GG-1 gets though. Add it to the previous message and picture of the box.  Again the picture turned sideways and I don't know why.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11321
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: ebay item ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Got any ideas what this is. obviously not an Ambroid steam engine.  I have already informed the seller of this.  If you know what it is for sure, I will let him know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370238341095
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11322
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay item ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Looks to me to be a Pocher 4-4-0
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "nvrr49@..." <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2009 8:11:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] ebay item ID

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Got any ideas what this is. obviously not an Ambroid steam engine. I have already informed the seller of this. If you know what it is for sure, I will let him know.

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=37023834109 5

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                      Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11323
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay item ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                              It was a 
plastic tender driven engine sold by AHM / Rivarossi called the Genoa. If you go 
to HOseeker  and find the  AHM parts catalog and builders bible that I 
sent you will find the 1968 production on pages 80 and 81  On pages 
82-83-84 you will find the 1970-1974 production and on page 85 the 1975-1977 
production. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  nvrr49@... 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 8:11 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] ebay item ID
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Got any ideas what this is. obviously not an Ambroid steam engine. I have 
  already informed the seller of this. If you know what it is for sure, I will 
  let him know.

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=37023834109 5

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent 
  Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                      Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11324
						From: bayerw@comcast.net
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Should have checked the catalog. Thanks for correcting.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter



                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "erieberk" <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, August 3, 2009 12:27:47 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 
 


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      These "American Flyer" cars WERE offered singly, as shown in A.C. Gilbert's 1949 catalog -- both, the catalog # HO-133 "N.H." Baggage and Mail Car and the # HO-135 "N.H." Passenger Coach, @ $4.50 each (Denver and west. $4.75 each).  As nice as these models were, they were shorties, at 9" long (not full length).  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bayerw@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gilbert did produce them in dark green plastic, built up, cast metal underbody, talgo trucks with their 'automatic' couplers, lettered for the NH. Don't think they were sold singly, but only in set with the NYC Hudson and a circle of track. Got the set as a Christmas present in 1949. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Walter 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "docdenny34" <danspach@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2009 6:20:32 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com , Rick Jones <r.t.jones@> wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I have the 3 Walthers wooden passenger car kits that are supposed to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > be based on B&M prototypes. I have them as individual kits as well as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > the 3-in-1 set they released. Are these the same as the B&M cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > mentioned above for which the CV trucks are a match? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To my knowledge, Walthers never produced models of the very handsome Osgood-Bradley 'American Flyer' cars. It neither fit the standard side sizes nor the roof types from which Walthers drew their model designs. American Flyer did produce foreshortened, and slightly wide heavy-gauge, heavy weight cast-metal models of this car, the only maker prior to E&B. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I cannot recall, but I think American Flyer may have also produced them in plastic after WWII. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There is at least one brass import model. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There may be others that I am unaware of. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Rapido is now producing superb plastic RTR models of these cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
	
	




	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11325
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay item ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The engine says "Pocher Italy" on the bottom.  I assume that will help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@..." <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Got any ideas what this is. obviously not an Ambroid steam engine.  I have already informed the seller of this.  If you know what it is for sure, I will let him know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370238341095
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11326
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay item ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  
  

 
It is an AHM import.  The wheels, rods and drawbar all tell me
this.  It has a Kadee coupler and that would be on the coupler pocket
but Pocher is a European manufacturer.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
=================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
nvrr49@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Got any ideas what this is. obviously not an Ambroid steam engine.
I have already informed the seller of this. If you know what it is for
sure, I will let him know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=37023834109 5
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11327
						From: bayerw@comcast.net
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sure was happy. Still have the set, and original box, too. Got rid of the track though. The Bakelite was breaking up.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter



                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, August 3, 2009 12:36:03 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 
 


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Walter B., 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Those Gilbert HO New Haven Osgood Bradley coachers were also sold singly and in kits as well and are pictured in orignal boxes in the Doyle American Flyer Guide published a few years ago.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In addition, Gilbert also manufactured them in an all diecast metal version before WW 2, as catalog #208 assembled or HO-9 kit.  A number of years ago, I came across a set of three of the dicast ones at a train show, completely stripped of all paint.  I'm sure the Gilbert collectors all winced, but they were fine for an HO scale modeler to repaint. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No vendor at the tsble, I figured on coming back and making the deal, but did not, to my regret as they were most reasonbly priced to begin with and well proportioned.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
One thing for sure, you were one happy and lucky kid back in 1949!  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bayerw@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gilbert did produce them in dark green plastic, built up, cast metal underbody, talgo trucks with their 'automatic' couplers, lettered for the NH. Don't think they were sold singly, but only in set with the NYC Hudson and a circle of track. Got the set as a Christmas present in 1949. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Walter 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "docdenny34" <danspach@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2009 6:20:32 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Micro-Motive passenger coach trucks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com , Rick Jones <r.t.jones@> wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I have the 3 Walthers wooden passenger car kits that are supposed to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > be based on B&M prototypes. I have them as individual kits as well as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > the 3-in-1 set they released. Are these the same as the B&M cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > mentioned above for which the CV trucks are a match? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To my knowledge, Walthers never produced models of the very handsome Osgood-Bradley 'American Flyer' cars. It neither fit the standard side sizes nor the roof types from which Walthers drew their model designs. American Flyer did produce foreshortened, and slightly wide heavy-gauge, heavy weight cast-metal models of this car, the only maker prior to E&B. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I cannot recall, but I think American Flyer may have also produced them in plastic after WWII. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There is at least one brass import model. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There may be others that I am unaware of. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Rapido is now producing superb plastic RTR models of these cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
	
	




	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11328
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: can't deny but
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Kent, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              
 Glad you found out the engine has Pocher on the bottom.  Can't deny 
who made that engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          However I want to show why I 
said AHM / Rivarossi. I  have sent pictures with paperwork showing the 
AHM / Rivarossi parts and diagram sheet and my 4-4-0 Genoa. The engine 
bottom has NO name on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Now I have to find out who first 
produced the engine.     Was it Pocher or Rivarossi 
?       I went mainly on the round motor found in 
the 2 later AHM / Rivarossi productions and in mine. This round motor was 
the mainstay of Rivarossi steam that was sold by AHM after their 1966-1968 
productions with the square motor. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11329
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: can't deny but [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      It is my understanding,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      AHM was the importer that bought out Rivarossi and Rivarossi produced the Pocher line under the name Pocher. They may have bought them out, but that was before my time. Thereby AHM became the importer of Pocher, much the same way PFM was the importer of many brass engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2009 9:54:56 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] can't deny but [3 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Kent, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               Glad you found out the engine has Pocher on the bottom.  Can't deny who made that engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          However I want to show why I said AHM / Rivarossi. I  have sent pictures with paperwork showing the AHM / Rivarossi parts and diagram sheet and my 4-4-0 Genoa. The engine bottom has NO name on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Now I have to find out who first produced the engine.     Was it Pocher or Rivarossi ?       I went mainly on the round motor found in the 2 later AHM / Rivarossi productions and in mine. This round motor was the mainstay of Rivarossi steam that was sold by AHM after their 1966-1968 productions with the square motor. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11330
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: can't deny but [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Sean, Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I remember reading about the various business transactions between Pocher and Rivarossi, and how the locomotives jumped brands decades before the European manufacturers colapsed and were taken over by Hornby, but can't find it right now.  They both jointly produced a number of automobile models as well, here is the link for a 12 page article, maybe it will lead to the railroad models.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.leggendaepassione.it/Pocher%20history%20(new%20translation).pdf
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Will try to search some more later today.   W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It is my understanding,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> AHM was the importer that bought out Rivarossi and Rivarossi produced the Pocher line under the name Pocher. They may have bought them out, but that was before my time. Thereby AHM became the importer of Pocher, much the same way PFM was the importer of many brass engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2009 9:54:56 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] can't deny but [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Kent, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          Glad you found out the engine has Pocher on the bottom.  Can't deny who made that engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     However I want to show why I said AHM / Rivarossi. I  have sent pictures with paperwork showing the AHM / Rivarossi parts and diagram sheet and my 4-4-0 Genoa. The engine bottom has NO name on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Now I have to find out who first produced the engine.     Was it Pocher or Rivarossi ?       I went mainly on the round motor found in the 2 later AHM / Rivarossi productions and in mine. This round motor was the mainstay of Rivarossi steam that was sold by AHM after their 1966-1968 productions with the square motor. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11331
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: can't deny but
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W, Sean, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I appreciate the answers. A 
nice little tidbit to learn about the Pocher / Rivarossi, AHM association. I had 
never put Pocher in the before or during AHM / Rivarossi production era. Always 
thought Pocher came afterward and took over production of this and other engines 
while still selling to AHM and maybe even IHC.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               Oh 
so much out there to learn.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 10:25 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: can't deny 
  but
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Sean, Jim H,

                                                                                                                                                                                      I remember reading about the various business 
  transactions between Pocher and Rivarossi, and how the locomotives jumped 
  brands decades before the European manufacturers colapsed and were taken over 
  by Hornby, but can't find it right now. They both jointly produced a number of 
  automobile models as well, here is the link for a 12 page article, maybe it 
  will lead to the railroad models.
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.leggenda epassione. it/Pocher% 20history% 20(new%20translation) .pdf
                                                                                                                                                                                      Will 
  try to search some more later today. W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > It is my 
  understanding,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > AHM was the importer that bought out Rivarossi 
  and Rivarossi produced the Pocher line under the name Pocher. They may have 
  bought them out, but that was before my time. Thereby AHM became the importer 
  of Pocher, much the same way PFM was the importer of many brass 
  engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: jim heckard 
  <jimheck@... >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2009 9:54:56 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [vintageHO] can't 
  deny but [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >   
                                                                                                                                                                                      > [Attachment( s) 
  from jim heckard included below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Kent, 
  All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      >         
   Glad you found out the engine has Pocher on the bottom.  Can't deny 
  who made that engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      >     However I want 
  to show why I said AHM / Rivarossi. I  have sent pictures with paperwork 
  showing the AHM / Rivarossi parts and diagram sheet and my 4-4-0 Genoa. 
  The engine bottom has NO name on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      >     
  Now I have to find out who first produced the engine.     
  Was it Pocher or Rivarossi ?       I went mainly 
  on the round motor found in the 2 later AHM / Rivarossi productions and 
  in mine. This round motor was the mainstay of Rivarossi steam that was sold by 
  AHM after their 1966-1968 productions with the square motor. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
   
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      >     
                                                                                                                                                                                      >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
   
                                                                                                                                                                                      >     
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11332
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay item ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Possibly an early AHM "Reno"?  Not a Mantua "General"--lacks the nameplates 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
on the boiler---but is tender-drive.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 5:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] ebay item ID
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Got any ideas what this is. obviously not an Ambroid steam engine.  I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> already informed the seller of this.  If you know what it is for sure, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> will let him know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370238341095
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.44/2282 - Release Date: 08/04/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
18:01:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11333
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay item ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      A note here--V&T locos "Reno" and "Genoa" were 
twins, as I recall--but AHM did one as an old-timer and the other as a 
modernized loco.   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 5:43 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay item 
  ID
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              It was 
  a plastic tender driven engine sold by AHM / Rivarossi called the Genoa. If 
  you go to HOseeker  and find the  AHM parts catalog and builders 
  bible that I sent you will find the 1968 production on pages 80 and 81  
  On pages 82-83-84 you will find the 1970-1974 production and on page 85 the 
  1975-1977 production. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
    nvrr49@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 8:11 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] ebay item ID
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Got any ideas what this is. obviously not an Ambroid steam engine. I have 
    already informed the seller of this. If you know what it is for sure, I will 
    let him know.

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=37023834109 5

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent 
    Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                      Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      

    

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
    www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.44/2282 - Release 
    Date: 08/04/09 18:01:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11334
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: can't deny but [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I think that both Pocher and Rivarossi built for 
AHM.   Possibly AHM owned the tooling??  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 6:54 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] can't deny but [3 
  Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Kent, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              
   Glad you found out the engine has Pocher on the bottom.  Can't deny 
  who made that engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          However I want to show why I 
  said AHM / Rivarossi. I  have sent pictures with paperwork showing the 
  AHM / Rivarossi parts and diagram sheet and my 4-4-0 Genoa. The engine 
  bottom has NO name on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          Now I have to find out who 
  first produced the engine.     Was it Pocher or Rivarossi 
  ?       I went mainly on the round motor found 
  in the 2 later AHM / Rivarossi productions and in mine. This round motor 
  was the mainstay of Rivarossi steam that was sold by AHM after their 1966-1968 
  productions with the square motor. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.44/2282 - Release 
  Date: 08/04/09 18:01:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11335
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay item ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                              Yes you 
are right. Just a difference in the stack.  The stack on the one being 
discussed was sold as the "Genoa"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  Glenn476 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 1:05 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay item 
  ID
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      A note here--V&T locos "Reno" and "Genoa" 
  were twins, as I recall--but AHM did one as an old-timer and the other as a 
  modernized loco.   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 5:43 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay item 
    ID
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                              It 
    was a plastic tender driven engine sold by AHM / Rivarossi called the Genoa. 
    If you go to HOseeker  and find the  AHM parts catalog and 
    builders bible that I sent you will find the 1968 production on pages 80 and 
    81  On pages 82-83-84 you will find the 1970-1974 production and on 
    page 85 the 1975-1977 production. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 8:11 
      AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] ebay item 
      ID
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      

                                                                                                                                                                                        
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Got any ideas what this is. obviously not an Ambroid steam engine. I 
      have already informed the seller of this. If you know what it is for sure, 
      I will let him know.

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=37023834109 5

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent 
      Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                      Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

      

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
      www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.44/2282 - 
      Release Date: 08/04/09 18:01:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11336
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay item ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The only difference I know of between AHM's Reno & Genoa was the stack.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 12:05 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay item ID
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
A note here--V&T locos "Reno" and "Genoa" were twins, as I recall--but AHM 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
did one as an old-timer and the other as a modernized loco.   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 5:43 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay item ID
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          It was a plastic tender driven engine sold by AHM / Rivarossi 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
called the Genoa. If you go to HOseeker  and find the  AHM parts catalog and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
builders bible that I sent you will find the 1968 production on pages 80 and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
81  On pages 82-83-84 you will find the 1970-1974 production and on page 85 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the 1975-1977 production.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    From: nvrr49@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 8:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Subject: [vintageHO] ebay item ID
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Got any ideas what this is. obviously not an Ambroid steam engine. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
have already informed the seller of this. If you know what it is for sure, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
will let him know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370238341095
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.44/2282 - Release Date: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
08/04/09 18:01:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11337
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay item ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don is right, that is an older AHM/Pocher, it has the tender driveshaft drive, its the Genoa, I would recognize her anywhere.....:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2009 8:47:48 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay item ID

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      It is an AHM import.  The wheels, rods and drawbar all tell me this.  It has a Kadee coupler and that would be on the coupler pocket but Pocher is a European manufacturer.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =

                                                                                                                                                                                      nvrr49@yahoo. com wrote: 

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Got any ideas what this is. obviously not an Ambroid steam engine. I have already informed the seller of this. If you know what it is for sure, I will let him know.

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=37023834109 5

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                      Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11338
						From: Nelson
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery GG1
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Nice looking unit, Tom. Very nice Pittman motor as well, but I guess those spur gears are pretty noisy. Is it one truck drive, or is there a a universal shaft that goes between them?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Forgot to mention that the folder is named A Mystery GG1.  Sorry, Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11339
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay item ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I think that the modern engine had an oil tank where the old-timer had a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
pile of wood on the tender.   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 11:59 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay item ID
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The only difference I know of between AHM's Reno & Genoa was the stack.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 12:05 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay item ID
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> A note here--V&T locos "Reno" and "Genoa" were twins, as I recall--but AHM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> did one as an old-timer and the other as a modernized loco.   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  From: jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 5:43 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay item ID
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          It was a plastic tender driven engine sold by AHM / Rivarossi
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> called the Genoa. If you go to HOseeker  and find the  AHM parts catalog 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> builders bible that I sent you will find the 1968 production on pages 80 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 81  On pages 82-83-84 you will find the 1970-1974 production and on page 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 85
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the 1975-1977 production.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    From: nvrr49@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 8:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Subject: [vintageHO] ebay item ID
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Got any ideas what this is. obviously not an Ambroid steam engine. I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have already informed the seller of this. If you know what it is for sure, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> will let him know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370238341095
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11340
						From: Nelson
						Date: 8/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: can't deny but
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Rivarossi bought out Pocher (or at least the molds for those old-time locos) around 1965, and produced them under their own name, but for some reason left the Pocher name on the tooling. AHM never owned Rivarossi, they were just their US importer; in fact AHM went belly up in the 80's, and Rivarossi went their own way until their own demise in the early 00's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
More info can be found here.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/ENGLISH_VERSION/index_Eng.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W, Sean, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     I appreciate the answers. A nice little tidbit to learn about the Pocher / Rivarossi, AHM association. I had never put Pocher in the before or during AHM / Rivarossi production era. Always thought Pocher came afterward and took over production of this and other engines while still selling to AHM and maybe even IHC.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          Oh so much out there to learn.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 10:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: can't deny but
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11341
						From: Nelson
						Date: 8/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: can't deny but
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Correction: it looks like the molds were acquired a decade later, in 1975.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Rivarossi bought out Pocher (or at least the molds for those old-time locos) around 1965, and produced them under their own name, but for some reason left the Pocher name on the tooling. AHM never owned Rivarossi, they were just their US importer; in fact AHM went belly up in the 80's, and Rivarossi went their own way until their own demise in the early 00's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> More info can be found here.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/ENGLISH_VERSION/index_Eng.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Nelson 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11342
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 8/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: can't deny but
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      That is kind of what i thought. I knew AHM was only the improter. Can't remember where i had heard that though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Seam
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Nelson <greenbrier614@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2009 12:36:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: can't deny but

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Rivarossi bought out Pocher (or at least the molds for those old-time locos) around 1965, and produced them under their own name, but for some reason left the Pocher name on the tooling. AHM never owned Rivarossi, they were just their US importer; in fact AHM went belly up in the 80's, and Rivarossi went their own way until their own demise in the early 00's.

                                                                                                                                                                                      More info can be found here.

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.rivaross i-memory. it/ENGLISH_ VERSION/index_ Eng.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                      Nelson

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > W Jay W, Sean, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I appreciate the answers. A nice little tidbit to learn about the Pocher / Rivarossi, AHM association. I had
 never put Pocher in the before or during AHM / Rivarossi production era. Always thought Pocher came afterward and took over production of this and other engines while still selling to AHM and maybe even IHC.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Oh so much out there to learn.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 10:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: can't deny but
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11343
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: can't deny but
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Nelson,Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes you are right 
that AHM (Associated Hobby Manufacturers, Inc) was just the seller / 
importer for Rivarossi items and of some other companies. And as you say 
AHM never owned Rivarossi but AHM / Rivarossi was used readily. Also do you know 
that AHM was a subsidiary of GHC (General Hobbies Corporation) the company that 
sold HOTCO ( HO TRAIN CO ) items.  GHC sold a couple types of the cast 
metal New One products. And if I'm not mistaken IHC actually grew out of AHM 
later. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           As for Pocher and 
Rivarossi specifically speaking about the Genoa engine. As I stated before the 
first year that AHM sold then Genoa was 1968. There were two later production 
runs. The first run in 1968 sold by AHM had a rectangular type open face motor 
that laid flat in the tender. All types sold by AHM were tender driven as I 
believe the Pocher were. The next two runs had the later Rivarossi round motor ( 
I guess it would be called a can motor )
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          The piece in my collection has 
AHM / Rivarossi paperwork with the round Rivarossi motor which would make 
it either the 70-74 AHM / Rivarossi run or the  74-77 AHM / Rivarossi 
run.  There is NO writing on the bottom so 
was this made before Pocher had the writing in the tooling on the bottom ? 
Or did Rivarossi buy the rights from Pocher and then take the writing off the 
tooling ?  Could it be the first Genoa 1968 run AHM sold, with the "odd" 
motor, been the Pocher engine with the writing and then Rivarossi took it off 
their later two runs ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         If the date of 1975 is correct then 
Rivarossi was producing this engine first and sold the rights to Pocher. Just my 
attempt to try to get the history straight. (If the 1965 date had been right 
then it would have been the other way around.  Rivarossi bought out the 
Pocher design).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           To many facts at one time 
and to easy to make a mistake but I hope I got it right.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  Nelson 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 12:36 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: can't deny 
  but
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Rivarossi bought out Pocher (or at least the molds for those old-time 
  locos) around 1965, and produced them under their own name, but for some 
  reason left the Pocher name on the tooling. AHM never owned Rivarossi, they 
  were just their US importer; in fact AHM went belly up in the 80's, and 
  Rivarossi went their own way until their own demise in the early 
  00's.

                                                                                                                                                                                      More info can be found here.

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.rivaross i-memory. it/ENGLISH_ VERSION/index_ Eng.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                      Nelson

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- 
  In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > W Jay W, Sean, 
  All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I appreciate the answers. A nice little tidbit 
  to learn about the Pocher / Rivarossi, AHM association. I had never put Pocher 
  in the before or during AHM / Rivarossi production era. Always thought Pocher 
  came afterward and took over production of this and other engines while still 
  selling to AHM and maybe even IHC.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Oh so much out there to 
  learn.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 10:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: 
  [vintageHO] Re: can't deny but
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11344
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 8/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Selling vintage kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm new to the group and want to know if it's 
kosher to offer vintage ho equipment and kits specifically to the group. 
Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Art
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11345
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 8/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Selling vintage kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: <luvprr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 3:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Selling vintage kits
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    I'm new to the group and want to know if it's  kosher to offer vintage
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ho equipment and kits specifically to the group.  Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Art
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As long as the kits have the Rabbi's blessing <G>.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Seriously, as long as you're a collector or hobbyist, not a commercial 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
dealer, and the models are HO, and of reasonable vintage to be of interest 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to the group.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I don't want to see long lists posted to the group every few days or weeks, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
if it's one or two models, that's fine but if it's a lot, ask people to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
contact you off list for your list.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Again, if we're not talking a large amount of items, it would also be OK to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
start a photo album on the group's photo's page and put up pictures of what 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
you have to offer.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I just don't want "for sale" type postings to get out of hand to where they 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
dominate the list.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11346
						From: Brent Buckley
						Date: 8/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 4-6-0 Locomotive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Lennard Stewart <lennard@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Friends and members,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thank you all for the useful replys.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
But have got me no where.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I give a go at making my own, with the loco being so old and junk boxes so deep.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brent
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Manchester
                                                                                                                                                                                      
England
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Lennard Stewart wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                Mike I sent you an off list email. it may have went to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> your junk .  Lennard Stewart in East Texas
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Lennard Stewart
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Owner of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1-87scalevehiclesales/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Bauers wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11347
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 8/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Selling vintage kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      luvprr@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     I'm new to the group and want to know if it's kosher to offer 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> vintage ho equipment and kits specifically to the group. Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          I think the least objectionable way to do it is like I have here in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
my message. Links to my items are tacked on after my signature. If 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
someone want to scroll down and find them they can, or a reader can just 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
hit delete once they've read the message body and ignore the rest of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                 Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
My eBay Items
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Marvel Punisher P.O.V. Graphic Novel, 4 Issues
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456562167
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Olympus Digital SLR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456577015
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
HO Scale Cottage, Built & Ready To Use
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456583640
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
HO Ambroid CB&Q Dynamometer Car Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456589993
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Fellowship Of The Rings Board Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260458567396
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
StakXchange Commodities Trading Board Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260458572769
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11348
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 8/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Selling vintage kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      And all this time I thought those were rotating yahoo ads.......and ignored them........
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >     I think the least objectionable way to do it is like I have here in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> my message. Links to my items are tacked on after my signature. If 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> someone want to scroll down and find them they can, or a reader can just 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> hit delete once they've read the message body and ignore the rest of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                  Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> My eBay Items
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Marvel Punisher P.O.V. Graphic Novel, 4 Issues
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456562167
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Olympus Digital SLR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456577015
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> HO Scale Cottage, Built & Ready To Use
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456583640
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> HO Ambroid CB&Q Dynamometer Car Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456589993
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Fellowship Of The Rings Board Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260458567396
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> StakXchange Commodities Trading Board Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260458572769
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11349
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 8/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Selling vintage kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Sounds like a good idea. Thanks, I'll do it that way. Just thought I'd ask 
as I recently bought 7 American Beauty ho kits on eBay and may re-list some 
of them when I get them as I really don't want the entire set. Hate to 
break up the set though as they are a matched set of passenger cars that would 
make up a nice consist. I'm only interested in building one or 
two representative kits of early manufacturers to pass on as a 
collection to family members and don't want this many from any one company. This 
is a painful philosophical 
dilemma!       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In a message dated 8/6/2009 8:03:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
r.t.jones@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      luvprr@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >     I'm new to 
  the group and want to know if it's kosher to offer 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > vintage ho 
  equipment and kits specifically to the group. Thanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                          I 
  think the least objectionable way to do it is like I have here in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      my 
  message. Links to my items are tacked on after my signature. If 
                                                                                                                                                                                      someone 
  want to scroll down and find them they can, or a reader can just 
                                                                                                                                                                                      hit 
  delete once they've read the message body and ignore the rest of the 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      posting.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -- 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
       Rick Jones

                                                                                                                                                                                      My eBay Items

                                                                                                                                                                                      Marvel Punisher 
  P.O.V. Graphic Novel, 4 
  Issues
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456562167

                                                                                                                                                                                      Olympus 
  Digital 
  SLR
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456577015

                                                                                                                                                                                      HO 
  Scale Cottage, Built & Ready To 
  Use
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456583640

                                                                                                                                                                                      HO 
  Ambroid CB&Q Dynamometer Car Craftsman 
  Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456589993

                                                                                                                                                                                      Fellowship 
  Of The Rings Board 
  Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260458567396

                                                                                                                                                                                      StakXchange 
  Commodities Trading Board 
  Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260458572769



                                                                                                                                                                                      ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11350
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 8/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Selling vintage kits - philosophical  dilemma!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      "luvprr"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I found through experince that sometimes I've had to change some of my collecting guidelines after becoming familiar with a certain manufacturers line of models.  There may be one or two manufacturers that you end up wanting more than just one or two cars from.  Regarding the American Beauties, I had only wanted to build a representative PRR consist of full length cars to exhibit and run behind my few vintage and one contemporary model PRR locomotives, but after getting four or five at one time though a local hobby shop connection, ended up liking them so much, I began seeking out the rest!  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I was also fascinated by American Beauty's Great Northern Pendulum Chair car, and not only found a kit at a show, but half of the rest of their full legnth GN cars as well, and all at a remarkably low price.  So am now looking to gradually complete that set.  And although that gave me GN cars to run behind my Penn Line GN GG-1, it lead me to consider the GN Empire Builder paint scheme for two of my hobbytown of Boston E-7's!  So I'm having fun I did not even conceive of beforehand, by being a bit flexible with my guidelines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
(Those here who know me will laugh at the preceeding papagraph, as I rarely model anything other than NJ/NYC based railroad prototypes, so I merely reflect that the NJDOT bought and ran GN Empire Builder cars, some still in original Empire Builder colors, for use in commuter trains circa 1970, dubbed by railfans, "Jersey Builders!") 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I do have a representative collection of other passenger car lines, one or two of each, just that I discovered that the American Beauty streamlined cars really appealed to me.  For others, their favorite may be Blue Line, Walthers, Kasiner or old-time Red Ball or Binkley.  Its hard to figure it out before you've had experince with a sampling of them. And like many, I have a tight budget too, so have to trade or sell items that do not fit the general collection.  As much as I would like to, would find it impossible (but great fun) to build a comprehensive collection nearly as complete as Jim H.'s magnificent one.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Funny conclusion: After acquiring most of the AB PRR and GN cars, I still needed a number of correct A-B trucks as some of the kits were missing them.  The cost of buying them indivdually was high on eBay, but then spotted an SP short set like yours and bought it for less than half of what the individual trucks would cost me, 1/3 less counting in postage.  If I had not had the PRR and GN orientation, the SP daylight set is nice enough that I would be tempted to keep it as an example of a complete consist! But it is on the "sell" shelf.  So be forewarned, you might change your mind once you get that shipment!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sounds like a good idea. Thanks, I'll do it that way. Just thought I'd ask  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> as I recently bought 7 American Beauty ho kits on eBay and may re-list some 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  of them when I get them as I really don't want the entire set. Hate to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> break up the set though as they are a matched set of passenger cars that would 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  make up a nice consist. I'm only interested in building one or  two 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> representative kits of early manufacturers to pass on as a  collection to family 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> members and don't want this many from any one company. This  is a painful 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> philosophical  dilemma!       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> In a message dated 8/6/2009 8:03:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> r.t.jones@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> luvprr@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >     I'm new to  the group and want to know if it's kosher to offer 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > vintage ho  equipment and kits specifically to the group. Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I  think the least objectionable way to do it is like I have here in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> my  message. Links to my items are tacked on after my signature. If 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> someone  want to scroll down and find them they can, or a reader can just 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> hit  delete once they've read the message body and ignore the rest of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> My eBay Items
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Marvel Punisher  P.O.V. Graphic Novel, 4  Issues
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456562167
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Olympus  Digital  SLR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456577015
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> HO  Scale Cottage, Built & Ready To  Use
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456583640
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> HO  Ambroid CB&Q Dynamometer Car Craftsman  Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456589993
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Fellowship  Of The Rings Board  Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260458567396
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> StakXchange  Commodities Trading Board  Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260458572769
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo!  Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11351
						From: Mike
						Date: 8/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Detailing a Varney Docksider
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I've purchased an old diecast varney docksider and I'm looking to add details. Does anyone know where I can get a parts list for the valve gear and other details? also, is the boiler and cab supposed to be slanting toward the rear of the engine?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11352
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Detailing a Varney Docksider
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                         Mike,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            The cab / boiler 
should not be lying backward. I'm guessing, without seeing it , that it is 
assembled wrong or something on the frame or cab might be broke causing it to 
slope backward.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              If you 
don't have any plans for it or know what production model you have go to www.hoseeker.net  Hit literature. Scroll 
down to Varney. Go to steam engines and hit 0-4-0 Dockside. You will see some of 
the assembly sheets which might show you why your engine not level.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              As for 
parts. A valve gear kit use to be sold by Central Valley ( I think) but very 
hard to come buy now.  Not knowing exactly what detail parts you want 
you might be able to get from Bowser, including a valve gear set. I'm not 
sure if Bowser still selling parts. You can also try www.yardbirdtrains.com  or dan@...  who might 
have valve gear and / or detail parts you can use.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Good 
luck                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  Mike 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 2:17 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Detailing a Varney 
  Docksider
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I've purchased an old diecast varney docksider and I'm looking to add 
  details. Does anyone know where I can get a parts list for the valve gear and 
  other details? also, is the boiler and cab supposed to be slanting toward the 
  rear of the engine?

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11353
						From: bayerw@comcast.net
						Date: 8/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Three "Special" Red Ball Work Cars [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Got it all three times. No strange spread out tet either. Everything was as it should be.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter



                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "Jay Wanczyk" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 5:21:29 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Three "Special" Red Ball Work Cars [1 Attachment]

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 
 


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
        [Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included below]
      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      All, Last try to attach Kitchen Car photo, If it does not appear, photo is in Plainsman's Picks Album, fourth to last photo.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 4:39:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Three "Special" Red Ball Work Cars [4 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      A Word About Red Ball: Most here know that Red Ball manufactured the largest range of printed and embossed, card-sided reefers and boxcars in HO, with sharply cast white metal ends and details beginning in 1939 with M. Dale Newton and continuing with Howell Day circa 1959 and Merle Rice (Wabash Valley and Model Railroad Warehouse) from about 1975 and active today, though the card sided kits were mostly phased out during the 1980's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      But Red Ball also made scores of other freight car kits and including a number of specialized, prototype specific cars. Dale Newton was never satisfied with one generic boxcar, flat car or gon lettered for every different road and it is that wide variety of prototype specific cars that makes many of his models not only interesting to the vintage collector and modeler, but of interest to today's scale modelers as well. Add in the talents of John Anderson (later of Kemtron and after, co-founder of Cal Scale) working with Newton in the late 1940's and early 1950's and it is no wonder that many Red Ball models are able to hold their own today, even as the basis for contest-quality prototype models.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      "Special Work Cars" A couple of weeks ago I was pleased to finally locate (on eBay) most parts of a set of three "Special" Red Ball work cars that were introduced in an artistically drawn flier (by John Anderson) for I believe the Christmas, 1950 season. In it, Santa, standing in the Red Ball workshop, is holding a new model kitchen car and is talking to Henry (the Hostler) Ginchel, a fictional Red Ball employee who has continued employment through all three periods of ownership from Newton to Rice (and has his own on-line column today). Santa says, "Now give them something special this year." Three "Special" work cars: Kitchen, Bunk and Domestic Water Car were offered as a boxed kit set that season, and only entered the regular catalog (#8) circa 1953 as regular numbered kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Here is the flier on HO Seeker:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.hoseeker .org/redball/ redballadchristm aspg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kitchen Car, "SC" 1, later K-79 is an old boxcar body mounted on a fish belly-sided flat car. The kit has 29 sharply detailed white metal castings, 14 wood parts, two brass tunings and came with sprung "Bettendorf" trucks (Silver Streak?).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Bunk Car, "SC" 2, later K-72 was in contrast to the Kitchen Car, simply a converted steel end box car. The kit included 26 castings, 11 wood parts and one brass turning and had sprung Andrews trucks (Silver Streak?). In the 1940's and as late as 1950 (Catalog #5, page 18), Newton offered a much simpler, embossed card side and end, four window Supply Car, Kit # 15 which should not be confused with this model.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Both of these "Special" house cars contained castings for oversized screened windows, sometimes seen on work cars in hotter regions. These castings have a very fine texture to simulate the screening, and would look good on a model house as well! Instead of replacing all the smaller conventional four-pane work car windows, the large screened windows were applied where "required" making a naturally appearing work car cobbled up by a railroad's shops according to need. The weakest part of the two models are the thin card sides and most modelers who built them did not take the time to back the card with a solid backing. Fortunately, as with most vintage models, the old glues have dried out and "re-kitting" and removing old glue is usually possible before restoration.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Domestic Water Tank car, "SC" 3, later K-52  The third "Special" car consisted of a old 8,000 gallon tank car body mounted on a flat car, with 18 castings, 7 wood parts and a diecast cellulose plastic tank car dome. An embossed printed tank wrapper was included, initially in gray or black, but latter offered in an oxide red. Initially, tank car ends were turned wood "plugs" fitted into a cardboard tube, but later diecast white metal ends were applied to a wood dowel. Sprung arch bar trucks (Silver Streak?) were furnished. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The three different types of trucks used on a work train added to the "use what's available" realism of the assembled work consist.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      These Kitchen and Bunk car kits seem to have only lasted through M. Dale Newton's years, Catalog # 9, while the Domestic Water car lasted through Howell Day's ownership and last catalog, # 11, (and possibly beyond).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      As I mentioned, Newton was not often satisfied with a single version of a type of car, and also offered a wonderful "Cook's Car" K-126-B, concurrently with the "Kitchen Car" based upon the Overland Transport composite box car with under slung tank that continued through Rice's production.  He also added a 60’ Dormitory Car, K-96, a converted old time passenger car with embossed card sides and individual diecast windows, later a slightly different version of K-96 with diecast metal sides was offered into the Day and Rice eras as well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      At the same time, I also purchased most of a NY Central style K-17 Boom Car, missing its entire cabin. This is the familiar later version of Boom Car that Red Ball introduced at the same time as the revised 200 ton crane, 1951 catalog, blueprint box era. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I need a few parts! As can be seen from the photos attached below (also appearing in my album, Plainsman's Picks, last four photos), some of my new acquisitions are missing a few parts, most of which I was able to find in my parts reserves. Rather than straighten out the warped card sides, (one side not shown was ruined by a poor paint job), I plan to rebuild with scribed wood siding which a good modeler might have done fifty years ago as well. I am still looking for the following parts (new or used) and would like to purchase or trade other Red Ball parts (new) of any kind you may need for your Red Ball restorations.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      For Kitchen Car:  1 screened window casting #146, car side ice hatch # 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      For Bunk Car:   roof end walks, pair B-82
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      For Water Car:  1 cast metal tank end # , cast tank dome lid # , cast tank cradles 3 (need one for another RB model), "Domestic Water" tank wrapper, gray, red or black, cast dome platforms, pair , 3 cast end tap lids.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      For Boom Car:  While I had an extra set of cabin ends, I still need the pair of cabin sides, #269 ; a long step, #134 and #smoke jack, 150. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      　
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I can no doubt substitute or copy some of the parts,  but like to find originals if I am able.  And if you have any doubt by now, I’m a big Red Ball modeler and enthusiast!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
	
	




	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11354
						From: bayerw@comcast.net
						Date: 8/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1 [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Again, everything came through for me the first time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter



                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 5:46:37 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] FAMOCO GG-1 [1 Attachment]

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 
 


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
        [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]
      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                 Try 
again.  I think something must be wrong with the attachment part of the 
site. I have sent two pictures twice, my computer shows 2 sent but only one 
seems to show up
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            To W Jay W.  
Maybe that is why you can't get your picture through.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           To Tom   
Hopefully this picture of the FAMOCO GG-1 gets though. Add it to the previous 
message and picture of the box.  Again the picture turned sideways and I 
don't know why.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
	
	




	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11355
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: FAMOCO GG-1
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         For some reason the first time I sent 
it only one picture showed up, showing the box, in the sites attachments. So I 
sent it again but only one picture, again the box. I went and took another 
picture of the engine. I came back in to send it and found that the second time 
I had sent two pictures they were now both there. Yet everytime I checked my 
outgoing mail it showed two pictures were sent. I think there must have been a 
small problem with the Yahoo site attachments. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         Thanks for your reply. Always good to 
hear from you.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  bayerw@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 5:57 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] FAMOCO 
GG-1
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Again, 
  everything came through for me the first 
  time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Walter



                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message 
  -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 
  Tuesday, August 4, 2009 5:46:37 PM GMT -04:00 Georgetown
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: 
  [vintageHO] FAMOCO GG-1 [1 Attachment]

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      [Attachment(s) from jim 
  heckard included below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Try 
  again.  I think something must be wrong with the attachment part of the 
  site. I have sent two pictures twice, my computer shows 2 sent but only one 
  seems to show up
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            To W Jay W.  
  Maybe that is why you can't get your picture through.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           To Tom   
  Hopefully this picture of the FAMOCO GG-1 gets though. Add it to the previous 
  message and picture of the box.  Again the picture turned sideways and I 
  don't know why.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11356
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: motor wanted
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
 I am looking to buy a Mantua pre war 6 volt motor hopefully with worm gear 
but will take the motor only. I want the larger type used for the Consolidation, 
Pacific and Atlantic.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          If you have one, know of one 
that is for sale contact me off site a jimheck@... . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Thank You      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11357
						From: Richard White
						Date: 8/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Selling vintage kits - philosophical  dilemma!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 
I too love the American Beauty kits- the 85-ft. cars. I've obtained and built eight of the Chicago and Northwestern cars, six of the Illinois Central cars, six Pennsylvania RR cars and one Great Northern car (the Pendulum Car). Most are equipped with AB trucks, built from kits and painted, and all have the kit full-width diaphragms except for the pendulum car.  I used a homemade brass jig to accurately drill (using a Micro-Mark small drill press) for the car side handrails. The roof handrails are 0.018" steel music wire and the side handrails are 0.018" stainless steel wire (both obtained online from Small Parts, Inc.)- as prototype side handrails were stainless steel. The cars windows are glazed with 0.015" clear sheet styrene form Evergreen Scale Models, with window shades made from white plastic tape, and the bathroom windows are frosted. I have obtained all of these cars from EBay auctions. I have two Hobbytown E7 AB sets to paint for CNW and IC to pull these cars, but so far have not been able to locate a painter. I do remember the American Beauty kits from when I was a kid, and when I couldn't find any more Blue Line kits on EBay, I bought two AB kits just to see how they went together. Now twenty-one cars later, I can say that I really enjoy building them- but I don't have a yard big enough for more than a few of them at a time! Regards- Richard White 

                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: the_plainsman@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 14:55:45 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Selling vintage kits - philosophical dilemma!

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      "luvprr"

                                                                                                                                                                                      I found through experince that sometimes I've had to change some of my collecting guidelines after becoming familiar with a certain manufacturers line of models. There may be one or two manufacturers that you end up wanting more than just one or two cars from. Regarding the American Beauties, I had only wanted to build a representative PRR consist of full length cars to exhibit and run behind my few vintage and one contemporary model PRR locomotives, but after getting four or five at one time though a local hobby shop connection, ended up liking them so much, I began seeking out the rest! 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I was also fascinated by American Beauty's Great Northern Pendulum Chair car, and not only found a kit at a show, but half of the rest of their full legnth GN cars as well, and all at a remarkably low price. So am now looking to gradually complete that set. And although that gave me GN cars to run behind my Penn Line GN GG-1, it lead me to consider the GN Empire Builder paint scheme for two of my hobbytown of Boston E-7's! So I'm having fun I did not even conceive of beforehand, by being a bit flexible with my guidelines. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      (Those here who know me will laugh at the preceeding papagraph, as I rarely model anything other than NJ/NYC based railroad prototypes, so I merely reflect that the NJDOT bought and ran GN Empire Builder cars, some still in original Empire Builder colors, for use in commuter trains circa 1970, dubbed by railfans, "Jersey Builders!") 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I do have a representative collection of other passenger car lines, one or two of each, just that I discovered that the American Beauty streamlined cars really appealed to me. For others, their favorite may be Blue Line, Walthers, Kasiner or old-time Red Ball or Binkley. Its hard to figure it out before you've had experince with a sampling of them. And like many, I have a tight budget too, so have to trade or sell items that do not fit the general collection. As much as I would like to, would find it impossible (but great fun) to build a comprehensive collection nearly as complete as Jim H.'s magnificent one. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Funny conclusion: After acquiring most of the AB PRR and GN cars, I still needed a number of correct A-B trucks as some of the kits were missing them. The cost of buying them indivdually was high on eBay, but then spotted an SP short set like yours and bought it for less than half of what the individual trucks would cost me, 1/3 less counting in postage. If I had not had the PRR and GN orientation, the SP daylight set is nice enough that I would be tempted to keep it as an example of a complete consist! But it is on the "sell" shelf. So be forewarned, you might change your mind once you get that shipment!

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, luvprr@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sounds like a good idea. Thanks, I'll do it that way. Just thought I'd ask 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > as I recently bought 7 American Beauty ho kits on eBay and may re-list some 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > of them when I get them as I really don't want the entire set. Hate to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > break up the set though as they are a matched set of passenger cars that would 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > make up a nice consist. I'm only interested in building one or two 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > representative kits of early manufacturers to pass on as a collection to family 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > members and don't want this many from any one company. This is a painful 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > philosophical dilemma! 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > In a message dated 8/6/2009 8:03:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > r.t.jones@.. . writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > luvprr@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I'm new to the group and want to know if it's kosher to offer 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > vintage ho equipment and kits specifically to the group. Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I think the least objectionable way to do it is like I have here in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > my message. Links to my items are tacked on after my signature. If 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > someone want to scroll down and find them they can, or a reader can just 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > hit delete once they've read the message body and ignore the rest of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > My eBay Items
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Marvel Punisher P.O.V. Graphic Novel, 4 Issues
                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=26045656216 7
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Olympus Digital SLR
                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=26045657701 5
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > HO Scale Cottage, Built & Ready To Use
                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=26045658364 0
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > HO Ambroid CB&Q Dynamometer Car Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=26045658999 3
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Fellowship Of The Rings Board Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=26045856739 6
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > StakXchange Commodities Trading Board Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=26045857276 9
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      >


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      





                                                                                                                                                                                      Get your vacation photos on your phone! Click here. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11358
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Detailing a Varney Docksider
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      boiler and cab should be level.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Mike" <michaelhkieran@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 11:17 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Detailing a Varney Docksider
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I've purchased an old diecast varney docksider and I'm looking to add 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> details. Does anyone know where I can get a parts list for the valve gear 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and other details? also, is the boiler and cab supposed to be slanting 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> toward the rear of the engine?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.45/2287 - Release Date: 08/07/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
06:22:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11359
						From: Nelson
						Date: 8/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: can't deny but
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In looking back through my info, I found this:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
A brief history of Rivarossi: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Founded 1948 to build model railways. (3 rail AC initially and then 2 rail DC) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
US products began around 1950. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
1960 - over half the product range was for the US market. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
c1965 - Pocher acquired 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
c1975 the entire factory was destroyed by fire. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
c1985 the US importer(AHM)went bankrupt owing Rivarossi about the same amount as the capital value of the firm. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
c1998 the Italian firm Lima + French Jouef + German Arnold went bankrupt.(four times the size of Rivarossi) The Italian government landed the sorry mess on Rivarossi - they gained the dies etc but at the cost of keeping the Italian factories open. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
c2002 the US importer folds leaving debts greater than the capital value of Rivarossi. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
10/2004 Hornby buys most of the dies (including the US and European ranges) and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
ships them to China.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
This concurs with a pdf file I downloaded about the history of Pocher (in badly translated Italian), which indicates that Rivarossi acquired at least partial interest in Pocher in '65. In 1981 they finally moved all Pocher production to the Rivarossi plant in Como (their main product was automotive models). This makes sense, as the 2-4-0's and 4-4-0's were clearly joint ventures from the beginning, using Rivarossi motors, drive parts, and frames and wheels made according to standard Rivarossi practice.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I still have the instruction sheet for the 2-4-0 JW Bowker my father gave to me around 1971 (may it rest in pieces), and it has Pocher on the front. I assume this changed later. I don't believe the Bowker was produced beyond the end of the AHM brand, and was cheapened drastically in later years, with a motor in the cab (yuck!), weird paint schemes, and plastic instead of brass turnings.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Reno and the Inyo were later produced independently by both IHC/Mehano and Rivarossi. IHC made minor tooling changes to accommodate a small can motor, but Rivarossi gave them RP25 blackened wheels and better motors in the 90's. Those later Rivarossis are fairly rare, and usually fetch about $70.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
And yes, IHC rose from the ashes of AHM, and is essentially the same company. I know 2 guys with truckloads of parts who worked for both incarnations of the company. Both were helmed by Bernie Paul, who probably goes all the way back to the GHC & HOTCO days. They say he's in poor health, and don't think IHC will survive his passing.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Hope that helps,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Nelson,Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Yes you are right that AHM (Associated Hobby Manufacturers, Inc) was just the seller / importer for Rivarossi items and of some other companies. And as you say AHM never owned Rivarossi but AHM / Rivarossi was used readily. Also do you know that AHM was a subsidiary of GHC (General Hobbies Corporation) the company that sold HOTCO ( HO TRAIN CO ) items.  GHC sold a couple types of the cast metal New One products. And if I'm not mistaken IHC actually grew out of AHM later. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      As for Pocher and Rivarossi specifically speaking about the Genoa engine. As I stated before the first year that AHM sold then Genoa was 1968. There were two later production runs. The first run in 1968 sold by AHM had a rectangular type open face motor that laid flat in the tender. All types sold by AHM were tender driven as I believe the Pocher were. The next two runs had the later Rivarossi round motor ( I guess it would be called a can motor )
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     The piece in my collection has AHM / Rivarossi paperwork with the round Rivarossi motor which would make it either the 70-74 AHM / Rivarossi run or the  74-77 AHM / Rivarossi run.  There is NO writing on the bottom so was this made before Pocher had the writing in the tooling on the bottom ? Or did Rivarossi buy the rights from Pocher and then take the writing off the tooling ?  Could it be the first Genoa 1968 run AHM sold, with the "odd" motor, been the Pocher engine with the writing and then Rivarossi took it off their later two runs ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    If the date of 1975 is correct then Rivarossi was producing this engine first and sold the rights to Pocher. Just my attempt to try to get the history straight. (If the 1965 date had been right then it would have been the other way around.  Rivarossi bought out the Pocher design).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      To many facts at one time and to easy to make a mistake but I hope I got it right.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11360
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: can't deny but
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Nelson,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         Thanks for the narrative. It's great 
and I will print it out to keep. Especially the firm 1965 date for Rivarossi 
acquiring Pocher.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          The 1960 date for US market is 
around when the streamlined 4-4-2 Hiawatha, the Southern Pacific type 4-4-2, the 
FM C liner made from bakelite (as were others), 0-4-0 CNJ and 0-6-0 Erie 
Switchers  and even the "Little Shoe" started showing up.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Great 
info.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  Nelson 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 8:22 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: can't deny 
  but
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                      In looking back through my info, I found this:

                                                                                                                                                                                      A brief 
  history of Rivarossi: 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Founded 1948 to build model railways. (3 rail AC 
  initially and then 2 rail DC) 

                                                                                                                                                                                      US products began around 1950. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      1960 - over half the product range was for the US market. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      c1965 - Pocher acquired 

                                                                                                                                                                                      c1975 the entire factory was destroyed 
  by fire. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      c1985 the US importer(AHM) went bankrupt owing Rivarossi 
  about the same amount as the capital value of the firm. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      c1998 the 
  Italian firm Lima + French Jouef + German Arnold went bankrupt.(four times the 
  size of Rivarossi) The Italian government landed the sorry mess on Rivarossi - 
  they gained the dies etc but at the cost of keeping the Italian factories 
  open. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      c2002 the US importer folds leaving debts greater than the 
  capital value of Rivarossi. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      10/2004 Hornby buys most of the dies 
  (including the US and European ranges) and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      ships them to 
  China.

                                                                                                                                                                                      This concurs with a pdf file I downloaded about the history of 
  Pocher (in badly translated Italian), which indicates that Rivarossi acquired 
  at least partial interest in Pocher in '65. In 1981 they finally moved all 
  Pocher production to the Rivarossi plant in Como (their main product was 
  automotive models). This makes sense, as the 2-4-0's and 4-4-0's were clearly 
  joint ventures from the beginning, using Rivarossi motors, drive parts, and 
  frames and wheels made according to standard Rivarossi practice.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I 
  still have the instruction sheet for the 2-4-0 JW Bowker my father gave to me 
  around 1971 (may it rest in pieces), and it has Pocher on the front. I assume 
  this changed later. I don't believe the Bowker was produced beyond the end of 
  the AHM brand, and was cheapened drastically in later years, with a motor in 
  the cab (yuck!), weird paint schemes, and plastic instead of brass 
  turnings.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The Reno and the Inyo were later produced independently by 
  both IHC/Mehano and Rivarossi. IHC made minor tooling changes to accommodate a 
  small can motor, but Rivarossi gave them RP25 blackened wheels and better 
  motors in the 90's. Those later Rivarossis are fairly rare, and usually fetch 
  about $70.

                                                                                                                                                                                      And yes, IHC rose from the ashes of AHM, and is essentially 
  the same company. I know 2 guys with truckloads of parts who worked for both 
  incarnations of the company. Both were helmed by Bernie Paul, who probably 
  goes all the way back to the GHC & HOTCO days. They say he's in poor 
  health, and don't think IHC will survive his passing.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hope that 
  helps,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Nelson

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  Nelson,Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Yes you are right that AHM (Associated Hobby 
  Manufacturers, Inc) was just the seller / importer for Rivarossi items and of 
  some other companies. And as you say AHM never owned Rivarossi but AHM / 
  Rivarossi was used readily. Also do you know that AHM was a subsidiary of GHC 
  (General Hobbies Corporation) the company that sold HOTCO ( HO TRAIN CO ) 
  items. GHC sold a couple types of the cast metal New One products. And if I'm 
  not mistaken IHC actually grew out of AHM later. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > As for 
  Pocher and Rivarossi specifically speaking about the Genoa engine. As I stated 
  before the first year that AHM sold then Genoa was 1968. There were two later 
  production runs. The first run in 1968 sold by AHM had a rectangular type open 
  face motor that laid flat in the tender. All types sold by AHM were tender 
  driven as I believe the Pocher were. The next two runs had the later Rivarossi 
  round motor ( I guess it would be called a can motor )
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The 
  piece in my collection has AHM / Rivarossi paperwork with the round Rivarossi 
  motor which would make it either the 70-74 AHM / Rivarossi run or the 74-77 
  AHM / Rivarossi run. There is NO writing on the bottom so was this made before 
  Pocher had the writing in the tooling on the bottom ? Or did Rivarossi buy the 
  rights from Pocher and then take the writing off the tooling ? Could it be the 
  first Genoa 1968 run AHM sold, with the "odd" motor, been the Pocher engine 
  with the writing and then Rivarossi took it off their later two runs ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > If the date of 1975 is correct then Rivarossi was producing this 
  engine first and sold the rights to Pocher. Just my attempt to try to get the 
  history straight. (If the 1965 date had been right then it would have been the 
  other way around. Rivarossi bought out the Pocher design).
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To 
  many facts at one time and to easy to make a mistake but I hope I got it 
  right.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11361
						From: mohoghead77
						Date: 8/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Help with Rivarossi and Intro as new member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It was suggested that someone on this group could be of assistance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I do repair on HO and O gauge equipment.  A customer of mine has a Rivarossi Allegheny which neither Hornby Intl nor Hornby USA have the parts for. (group owner- I can provide documentation if necessary.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Now to introduce myself.  I model Wabash, Burlington, and Union Pacific in HO.  My first train was an O gauge Allstate NYC diesel Switcher set sold by Sears (engine was by Marx). I have live steam experience and in my personal HO collection I have Varney, Penn Line, and a couple of rare old brass , old Lionel, New One and one or two other pieces that have accumulated. I have ancestors who worked for the Wabash and/or operated steam tractors to operate a sawmill and threshing operation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have a website for my repair business which I would be happy to discuss with anyone off this group site by contacting me at another email address I use.  I am a Member of the Wabash RR Historical Society.  As this group is for sharing and adding to knowledge on vintage items, I do have some of the old Penn Line paper inserts for their passenger cars of traveling passengers, and also have some items I am "brokering" for a customer's widow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I don't spend a lot of time on Yahoo groups so if you conact me and I don't immediately get back with you I mean no offense by that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I intend to familiarize myself with archive messages so I don't ask questions that are a repeat of past discussions.  Thanks in advance for your patience with a "newby" to the group.  I hope some one can assist with my Rivarossi issue or point me somewhere I have not already tried such as Yardbird ( I know the owner), two or three of the Ebay sites like K4 and MW....... Thanks again and happy modeling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Regards and Follow the Flag!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mohoghead77
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11362
						From: Tom Hare
						Date: 8/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery GG1
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Nelson, no it is one truck drive.  No hook-up to the dummy truck.  Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Wed, 8/5/09, Nelson <greenbrier614@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Nelson <greenbrier614@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery GG1
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 6:42 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      










 
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Nice looking unit, Tom. Very nice Pittman motor as well, but I guess those spur gears are pretty noisy. Is it one truck drive, or is there a a universal shaft that goes between them?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Tom" <jodanjackkayla@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Forgot to mention that the folder is named A Mystery GG1.  Sorry, Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	



                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11363
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Question on Athearn Electric Loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I just bought a somewhat disheveled Athearn Electric loco and have searched the archives and gone to a couple of our vintage HO websites and can't find the answer to this question -- was the Athearn faux-Virginian electric loco only offered with Hi-F drive?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The version I got was a dummy but was curious as to its drive history.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Also, for those in the Norfolk, VA area, if you are interested in vintage HO drop by Dales Trains. He has boxes of old HO in the shop. He is mostly an O-scale Tinplate dealer and repair person but has a big shop with lots of HO stuff. It is where I found my Athearn Electric loco.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt Coleman
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11364
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Question on Athearn Electric Loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                 Which 
version do you have ?  Lionel asked Athearn to make HO trains for them in 
1958.  They combined to create the odd Virginian rectifier engine which had 
the Athearn Hi-F drive under the Lionel body. ( I believe you could buy a 
plain Athearn engine or an Athearn engine that had the Lionel logo on it.) Later 
Lionel went it's own way and produced this electric with their own 
drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               I 
only have the Lionel electric with the Lionel drive in my collection so I have 
to bow to others, like Ray F W, who will know a lot more especially about the 
specifics of the Athearn productions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 7:31 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Question on Athearn 
  Electric Loco
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I just bought a somewhat disheveled Athearn Electric loco and have searched 
  the archives and gone to a couple of our vintage HO websites and can't find 
  the answer to this question -- was the Athearn faux-Virginian electric loco 
  only offered with Hi-F drive?

                                                                                                                                                                                      The version I got was a dummy but was 
  curious as to its drive history.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Also, for those in the Norfolk, VA 
  area, if you are interested in vintage HO drop by Dales Trains. He has boxes 
  of old HO in the shop. He is mostly an O-scale Tinplate dealer and repair 
  person but has a big shop with lots of HO stuff. It is where I found my 
  Athearn Electric loco.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Matt Coleman

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11365
						From: Brent Buckley
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Friends and members,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thank you all for the useful replys.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
But have got me no where.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I will have a go at making my own, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
with the loco being so old and junk boxes so deep.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brent
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Manchester
                                                                                                                                                                                      
England
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11366
						From: Brent Buckley
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: AHM / Rivarossi Casey Jones 2-6-0 Locomotive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Friends and Members
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Does anybody in England have spare parts for the above locomotive ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brent
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Manchester
                                                                                                                                                                                      
England
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11367
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Question on Athearn Electric Loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "mmattjcoleman" <mattjcoleman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 6:31 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Question on Athearn Electric Loco
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I just bought a somewhat disheveled Athearn Electric loco and have searched 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>the archives and gone to a couple of our vintage HO websites and can't find 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>the answer to this question -- was the Athearn faux-Virginian electric loco 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>only offered with Hi-F drive?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The version I got was a dummy but was curious as to its drive history.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Also, for those in the Norfolk, VA area, if you are interested in vintage 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> HO drop by Dales Trains. He has boxes of old HO in the shop. He is mostly 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> an O-scale Tinplate dealer and repair person but has a big shop with lots 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of HO stuff. It is where I found my Athearn Electric loco.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Matt Coleman
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Virginian electric wasn't around that long, I believe in the Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
version it was only Hi-Fi, I'm not sure about the Lionel version.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
However, if you're not a "purist", I do believe they used the GP-9 chassis 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
which is readily available in many versions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11368
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Question on Athearn Electric Loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
I never saw a geared version.  All that I saw were Hi-F, band
drive.  I had a friend who modeled VIRGINIAN and he had numerous of
them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VB, VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
==============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
mmattjcoleman wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I just bought a somewhat disheveled Athearn Electric loco and have
searched the archives and gone to a couple of our vintage HO websites
and can't find the answer to this question -- was the Athearn
faux-Virginian electric loco only offered with Hi-F drive?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The version I got was a dummy but was curious as to its drive history.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Also, for those in the Norfolk, VA area, if you are interested in
vintage HO drop by Dales Trains. He has boxes of old HO in the shop. He
is mostly an O-scale Tinplate dealer and repair person but has a big
shop with lots of HO stuff. It is where I found my Athearn Electric
loco.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt Coleman
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11369
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help with Rivarossi and Intro as new member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
If you find a source, please advise.  I need an Allegheny  front
porch including the pilot.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
=============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
mohoghead77 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
It was suggested that someone on this group could be of assistance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I do repair on HO and O gauge equipment. A customer of mine has a
Rivarossi Allegheny which neither Hornby Intl nor Hornby USA have the
parts for. (group owner- I can provide documentation if necessary.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Now to introduce myself. I model Wabash, Burlington, and Union Pacific
in HO. My first train was an O gauge Allstate NYC diesel Switcher set
sold by Sears (engine was by Marx). I have live steam experience and in
my personal HO collection I have Varney, Penn Line, and a couple of
rare old brass , old Lionel, New One and one or two other pieces that
have accumulated. I have ancestors who worked for the Wabash and/or
operated steam tractors to operate a sawmill and threshing operation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have a website for my repair business which I would be happy to
discuss with anyone off this group site by contacting me at another
email address I use. I am a Member of the Wabash RR Historical Society.
As this group is for sharing and adding to knowledge on vintage items,
I do have some of the old Penn Line paper inserts for their passenger
cars of traveling passengers, and also have some items I am "brokering"
for a customer's widow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I don't spend a lot of time on Yahoo groups so if you conact me and I
don't immediately get back with you I mean no offense by that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I intend to familiarize myself with archive messages so I don't ask
questions that are a repeat of past discussions. Thanks in advance for
your patience with a "newby" to the group. I hope some one can assist
with my Rivarossi issue or point me somewhere I have not already tried
such as Yardbird ( I know the owner), two or three of the Ebay sites
like K4 and MW....... Thanks again and happy modeling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Regards and Follow the Flag!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mohoghead77
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11370
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help with Rivarossi and Intro as new member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
AND...  Welcome to the group!  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
=================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
mohoghead77 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
It was suggested that someone on this group could be of assistance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I do repair on HO and O gauge equipment. A customer of mine has a
Rivarossi Allegheny which neither Hornby Intl nor Hornby USA have the
parts for. (group owner- I can provide documentation if necessary.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Now to introduce myself. I model Wabash, Burlington, and Union Pacific
in HO. My first train was an O gauge Allstate NYC diesel Switcher set
sold by Sears (engine was by Marx). I have live steam experience and in
my personal HO collection I have Varney, Penn Line, and a couple of
rare old brass , old Lionel, New One and one or two other pieces that
have accumulated. I have ancestors who worked for the Wabash and/or
operated steam tractors to operate a sawmill and threshing operation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have a website for my repair business which I would be happy to
discuss with anyone off this group site by contacting me at another
email address I use. I am a Member of the Wabash RR Historical Society.
As this group is for sharing and adding to knowledge on vintage items,
I do have some of the old Penn Line paper inserts for their passenger
cars of traveling passengers, and also have some items I am "brokering"
for a customer's widow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I don't spend a lot of time on Yahoo groups so if you conact me and I
don't immediately get back with you I mean no offense by that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I intend to familiarize myself with archive messages so I don't ask
questions that are a repeat of past discussions. Thanks in advance for
your patience with a "newby" to the group. I hope some one can assist
with my Rivarossi issue or point me somewhere I have not already tried
such as Yardbird ( I know the owner), two or three of the Ebay sites
like K4 and MW....... Thanks again and happy modeling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Regards and Follow the Flag!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mohoghead77
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11371
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Selling vintage kits - philosophical  dilemma!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Richard W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for sharing your assembly techniques on the American Beauty cars; I too, found that a small drill press and some sort of jig is a necessity for getting through those steel sides.  I have never been satisfied with the handrail material I have used, so a big thanks for the lead for the stainless steel wire at Small Parts, Inc.  I had not been aware of that interesting vendor before.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
By the early 1960's when I started seriously in HO scale, A.B. was gone from the market, though I used to read glowing referneces to their cars, and Blue Line's as well, in the magazine letters or columns.  So far, my only Blue Line car came along with the stack of GN Empire Builder kits, and it was their GN Empire Builder Dome car, so I was pleased in all respects!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Richard White <toytrain13@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I too love the American Beauty kits- the 85-ft. cars. I've obtained and built eight of the Chicago and Northwestern cars, six of the Illinois Central cars, six Pennsylvania RR cars and one Great Northern car (the Pendulum Car). Most are equipped with AB trucks, built from kits and painted, and all have the kit full-width diaphragms except for the pendulum car.  I used a homemade brass jig to accurately drill (using a Micro-Mark small drill press) for the car side handrails. The roof handrails are 0.018" steel music wire and the side handrails are 0.018" stainless steel wire (both obtained online from Small Parts, Inc.)- as prototype side handrails were stainless steel. The cars windows are glazed with 0.015" clear sheet styrene form Evergreen Scale Models, with window shades made from white plastic tape, and the bathroom windows are frosted. I have obtained all of these cars from EBay auctions. I have two Hobbytown E7 AB sets to paint for CNW and IC to pull these cars, but so far have not been able to locate a painter. I do remember the American Beauty kits from when I was a kid, and when I couldn't find any more Blue Line kits on EBay, I bought two AB kits just to see how they went together. Now twenty-one cars later, I can say that I really enjoy building them- but I don't have a yard big enough for more than a few of them at a time! Regards- Richard White 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: the_plainsman@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 14:55:45 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Selling vintage kits - philosophical dilemma!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> "luvprr"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I found through experince that sometimes I've had to change some of my collecting guidelines after becoming familiar with a certain manufacturers line of models. There may be one or two manufacturers that you end up wanting more than just one or two cars from. Regarding the American Beauties, I had only wanted to build a representative PRR consist of full length cars to exhibit and run behind my few vintage and one contemporary model PRR locomotives, but after getting four or five at one time though a local hobby shop connection, ended up liking them so much, I began seeking out the rest! 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I was also fascinated by American Beauty's Great Northern Pendulum Chair car, and not only found a kit at a show, but half of the rest of their full legnth GN cars as well, and all at a remarkably low price. So am now looking to gradually complete that set. And although that gave me GN cars to run behind my Penn Line GN GG-1, it lead me to consider the GN Empire Builder paint scheme for two of my hobbytown of Boston E-7's! So I'm having fun I did not even conceive of beforehand, by being a bit flexible with my guidelines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (Those here who know me will laugh at the preceeding papagraph, as I rarely model anything other than NJ/NYC based railroad prototypes, so I merely reflect that the NJDOT bought and ran GN Empire Builder cars, some still in original Empire Builder colors, for use in commuter trains circa 1970, dubbed by railfans, "Jersey Builders!") 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I do have a representative collection of other passenger car lines, one or two of each, just that I discovered that the American Beauty streamlined cars really appealed to me. For others, their favorite may be Blue Line, Walthers, Kasiner or old-time Red Ball or Binkley. Its hard to figure it out before you've had experince with a sampling of them. And like many, I have a tight budget too, so have to trade or sell items that do not fit the general collection. As much as I would like to, would find it impossible (but great fun) to build a comprehensive collection nearly as complete as Jim H.'s magnificent one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Funny conclusion: After acquiring most of the AB PRR and GN cars, I still needed a number of correct A-B trucks as some of the kits were missing them. The cost of buying them indivdually was high on eBay, but then spotted an SP short set like yours and bought it for less than half of what the individual trucks would cost me, 1/3 less counting in postage. If I had not had the PRR and GN orientation, the SP daylight set is nice enough that I would be tempted to keep it as an example of a complete consist! But it is on the "sell" shelf. So be forewarned, you might change your mind once you get that shipment!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Sounds like a good idea. Thanks, I'll do it that way. Just thought I'd ask 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > as I recently bought 7 American Beauty ho kits on eBay and may re-list some 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > of them when I get them as I really don't want the entire set. Hate to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > break up the set though as they are a matched set of passenger cars that would 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > make up a nice consist. I'm only interested in building one or two 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > representative kits of early manufacturers to pass on as a collection to family 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > members and don't want this many from any one company. This is a painful 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > philosophical dilemma! 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > In a message dated 8/6/2009 8:03:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > r.t.jones@ writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > luvprr@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I'm new to the group and want to know if it's kosher to offer 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > vintage ho equipment and kits specifically to the group. Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I think the least objectionable way to do it is like I have here in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > my message. Links to my items are tacked on after my signature. If 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > someone want to scroll down and find them they can, or a reader can just 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > hit delete once they've read the message body and ignore the rest of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > posting.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > My eBay Items
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Marvel Punisher P.O.V. Graphic Novel, 4 Issues
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456562167
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Olympus Digital SLR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456577015
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > HO Scale Cottage, Built & Ready To Use
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456583640
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > HO Ambroid CB&Q Dynamometer Car Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260456589993
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Fellowship Of The Rings Board Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260458567396
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > StakXchange Commodities Trading Board Game
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260458572769
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> _________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Get your vacation photos on your phone!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://windowsliveformobile.com/en-us/photos/default.aspx?&OCID=0809TL-HM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11372
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help with Rivarossi and Intro as new member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Don S. and also a welcome to 'mohoghead77",
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
There is a large vendor with Rivarossi-AHM-IHC parts that participates in the large Spring Thaw and First Frost Fall Allentown, PA Ag. Hall shows that might have what you both are looking for.  I do not know his name, but he has a deep stock at the show and more at home that I believe came from AHM/IHC in Philly.  I do not have his name, but based on an old table layout plan, it could be a C.J DeAngelis; perhaps someone else here knows more, as I think the vendor, if not the name, has been mentioned before, several months back. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mohoghead77" <mohoghead77@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It was suggested that someone on this group could be of assistance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I do repair on HO and O gauge equipment.  A customer of mine has a Rivarossi Allegheny which neither Hornby Intl nor Hornby USA have the parts for. (group owner- I can provide documentation if necessary.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Now to introduce myself.  I model Wabash, Burlington, and Union Pacific in HO.  My first train was an O gauge Allstate NYC diesel Switcher set sold by Sears (engine was by Marx). I have live steam experience and in my personal HO collection I have Varney, Penn Line, and a couple of rare old brass , old Lionel, New One and one or two other pieces that have accumulated. I have ancestors who worked for the Wabash and/or operated steam tractors to operate a sawmill and threshing operation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have a website for my repair business which I would be happy to discuss with anyone off this group site by contacting me at another email address I use.  I am a Member of the Wabash RR Historical Society.  As this group is for sharing and adding to knowledge on vintage items, I do have some of the old Penn Line paper inserts for their passenger cars of traveling passengers, and also have some items I am "brokering" for a customer's widow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I don't spend a lot of time on Yahoo groups so if you conact me and I don't immediately get back with you I mean no offense by that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I intend to familiarize myself with archive messages so I don't ask questions that are a repeat of past discussions.  Thanks in advance for your patience with a "newby" to the group.  I hope some one can assist with my Rivarossi issue or point me somewhere I have not already tried such as Yardbird ( I know the owner), two or three of the Ebay sites like K4 and MW....... Thanks again and happy modeling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Regards and Follow the Flag!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mohoghead77
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11373
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help with Rivarossi and Intro as new member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
Thanks...  Don Staton
                                                                                                                                                                                      
====================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the_plainsman wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Don S. and also a welcome to 'mohoghead77" ,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
There is a large vendor with Rivarossi-AHM- IHC parts that
participates in the large Spring Thaw and First Frost Fall Allentown,
PA Ag. Hall shows that might have what you both are looking for. I do
not know his name, but he has a deep stock at the show and more at home
that I believe came from AHM/IHC in Philly. I do not have his name, but
based on an old table layout plan, it could be a C.J DeAngelis; perhaps
someone else here knows more, as I think the vendor, if not the name,
has been mentioned before, several months back. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"mohoghead77" <mohoghead77@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It was suggested that someone on this group could be of assistance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I do repair on HO and O gauge equipment. A customer of mine has a
Rivarossi Allegheny which neither Hornby Intl nor Hornby USA have the
parts for. (group owner- I can provide documentation if necessary.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Now to introduce myself. I model Wabash, Burlington, and Union
Pacific in HO. My first train was an O gauge Allstate NYC diesel
Switcher set sold by Sears (engine was by Marx). I have live steam
experience and in my personal HO collection I have Varney, Penn Line,
and a couple of rare old brass , old Lionel, New One and one or two
other pieces that have accumulated. I have ancestors who worked for the
Wabash and/or operated steam tractors to operate a sawmill and
threshing operation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have a website for my repair business which I would be happy to
discuss with anyone off this group site by contacting me at another
email address I use. I am a Member of the Wabash RR Historical Society.
As this group is for sharing and adding to knowledge on vintage items,
I do have some of the old Penn Line paper inserts for their passenger
cars of traveling passengers, and also have some items I am "brokering"
for a customer's widow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I don't spend a lot of time on Yahoo groups so if you conact me
and I don't immediately get back with you I mean no offense by that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I intend to familiarize myself with archive messages so I don't
ask questions that are a repeat of past discussions. Thanks in advance
for your patience with a "newby" to the group. I hope some one can
assist with my Rivarossi issue or point me somewhere I have not already
tried such as Yardbird ( I know the owner), two or three of the Ebay
sites like K4 and MW....... Thanks again and happy modeling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Regards and Follow the Flag!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mohoghead77
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11374
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Question on Athearn Electric Loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
My ignorance on the topic of vintage HO is vast and wide and your question left me completely without an answer. I took photos of the version I have (which appears to have been heavily modified with paint, decals, and what appear to be Kemtron ALCO RSD six-wheel trucks. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The photos are in an album called Athearn Virginian Rectifier Loco
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1015710065/pic/list
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If these help you identify the version let me know. The box in the background is a red herring -- it is an Athearn SW-1500 box that the VGN rectifier loco was sitting in when I bought it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for your help!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            Which version do you have ?  Lionel asked Athearn to make HO trains for them in 1958.  They combined to create the odd Virginian rectifier engine which had the Athearn Hi-F drive under the Lionel body. ( I believe you could buy a plain Athearn engine or an Athearn engine that had the Lionel logo on it.) Later Lionel went it's own way and produced this electric with their own drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          I only have the Lionel electric with the Lionel drive in my collection so I have to bow to others, like Ray F W, who will know a lot more especially about the specifics of the Athearn productions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11375
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Question on Athearn Electric Loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
It appears to have been lengthened also as it should have been.  The
6 wheel Alco trucks were the trucks that were on the prototype. 
Athearn shortened it to use it on GP9 frame with 4 wheel trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
mmattjcoleman wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
My ignorance on the topic of vintage HO is vast and wide and your
question left me completely without an answer. I took photos of the
version I have (which appears to have been heavily modified with paint,
decals, and what appear to be Kemtron ALCO RSD six-wheel trucks. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The photos are in an album called Athearn Virginian Rectifier Loco
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ photos/album/ 1015710065/ pic/list
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
If these help you identify the version let me know. The box in the
background is a red herring -- it is an Athearn SW-1500 box that the
VGN rectifier loco was sitting in when I bought it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for your help!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Which version do you have ? Lionel asked Athearn to make HO trains
for them in 1958. They combined to create the odd Virginian rectifier
engine which had the Athearn Hi-F drive under the Lionel body. ( I
believe you could buy a plain Athearn engine or an Athearn engine that
had the Lionel logo on it.) Later Lionel went it's own way and produced
this electric with their own drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I only have the Lionel electric with the Lionel drive in my
collection so I have to bow to others, like Ray F W, who will know a
lot more especially about the specifics of the Athearn productions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11376
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Question on Athearn Electric Loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks! Whomever did the lengthening did an excellent job as I didn't notice it at first look.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /It appears to have been lengthened also as it should have been.  The 6 wheel Alco trucks were the trucks that were on the prototype.  Athearn shortened it to use it on GP9 frame with 4 wheel trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1015710065/pic/list 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1015710065/pic/list>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11377
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Question on Athearn Electric Loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
I looked closely.  The joint was not obvious but it is lengthened. 
The American Flyer HO Alco 12 wheel drive is a good source for a drive
mechanism if the AF shell is not of collector value.  I have several of
the AF HO Alcos.  I started converting a damaged demo model Alco to a
VGN rectifier but never finished it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
==============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
mmattjcoleman wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks! Whomever did the lengthening did an excellent job as I didn't
notice it at first look.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /It appears to have been lengthened also as it should have been.
The 6 wheel Alco trucks were the trucks that were on the prototype.
Athearn shortened it to use it on GP9 frame with 4 wheel trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ photos/album/ 1015710065/ pic/list
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
<http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ photos/album/ 1015710065/ pic/list>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11378
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Athearn / Lionel Virginian Electric
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Matt C,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          First all the pictures I sent 
are of the Lionel HO electric that had the Lionel "O" Ring drive (not RBD.) I 
hope I can get the facts straight trying to type one finger.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Lionel needed someone to 
produce HO items for them since they had nothing ready. After a partnership 
with Rivarossi failed Athearn and Lionel teamed up. The Virginian electric was 
composed, at first, of a Lionel body design on an Athearn Hi-F drive (rubber 
band drive). I think the Athearn frame was from their GP 7 or  9 or 
whatever it supposed to a copy of.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Athearn sold the engine 
under their name and Lionel sold the same engine with the Lionel logo on it. 
Again both used only the Hi-F / Rubber Band Drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Later Lionel 
got out of the partnership and sold the Virginian eclectic with their own drive 
( pictures I sent ). This drive used "O" rings to drive two geared trucks. 
Lionel also produced this electric in Pennsylvania and New Haven 
colors
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I can't send any 
pictures of the Athearn / Lionel with rubber band  Hi-F drives as I don't 
have one. I think you must have an Athearn Hi-F drive in yours to ask if it was 
the only drive but as you see you can slip the Lionel drive under it as the same 
body was used for all runs of Athearn and Lionel. I didn't mean to throw 
you a curve. Hope this helps. Be glad to try to answer more and clearer if need 
be. I'm sure others more knowledgeable about Athearn will answer you 
too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11379
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: elongated electric
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                             Matt C, Don S, 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
 I should have looked at Matt's pictures better as I assumed we were 
talking about the Athearn / Lionel electric.. Everything I just sent, with 
pictures , won't matter since your engine is not the Athearn / Lionel 
electric but was elongated to use 6 wheel trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Don S is right 
in saying to use the American Flyer engine frame and drive under your modified 
body.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             I now have a 
question to ask Matt. If the drive in that elongated electric you have is a Hi-F 
RBD what was done to extend it to match the body   ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11380
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: elongated electric
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
First, thanks for the photos. I wondered what it would have looked like in the original condition and now I know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Second, mine is a dummy, no drive at all. That's why I was asking about what kind of drive the original had in it. But now that I see that it is a lengthened shell I am probably going to sit back and ponder on how best to drive it. Don's suggestion of using an AF mechanism is probably the best.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        Matt C, Don S, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                 I should have looked at Matt's pictures better as I assumed we were talking about the Athearn / Lionel electric.. Everything I just sent, with pictures , won't matter since your engine is not the Athearn / Lionel electric but was elongated to use 6 wheel trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        Don S is right in saying to use the American Flyer engine frame and drive under your modified body.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        I now have a question to ask Matt. If the drive in that elongated electric you have is a Hi-F RBD what was done to extend it to match the body   ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11381
						From: mohoghead77
						Date: 8/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help with Rivarossi and Intro as new member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hey Plainsman:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for the info.  Will follow up on PA lead and to Don S.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
if all you need is pilot I may be able to help with that after I get parts I need from PA if he has them.  Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
MOHOGHEAD77
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Don S. and also a welcome to 'mohoghead77",
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There is a large vendor with Rivarossi-AHM-IHC parts that participates in the large Spring Thaw and First Frost Fall Allentown, PA Ag. Hall shows that might have what you both are looking for.  I do not know his name, but he has a deep stock at the show and more at home that I believe came from AHM/IHC in Philly.  I do not have his name, but based on an old table layout plan, it could be a C.J DeAngelis; perhaps someone else here knows more, as I think the vendor, if not the name, has been mentioned before, several months back. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11382
						From: bongiovanni12001
						Date: 8/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn / Lionel Virginian Electric
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim; your knowledge of vintage HO greatly exceeds mine, but Athearn did this Virginian shortened electric with both the rubber band drive and later the gear drive.  Found one in the basement of AHC when I was working there, and bought it.  Picked up a few of the shells over the years when I was modeling a freelance road.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Otherwise you're right as far as I know.  And the gear drive I have is really rough, but a later GP7 drive is a snap in (look for the one with the two nubs on each side).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Frank Bongiovanni
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Matt C,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     First all the pictures I sent are of the Lionel HO electric that had the Lionel "O" Ring drive (not RBD.) I hope I can get the facts straight trying to type one finger.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      Lionel needed someone to produce HO items for them since they had nothing ready. After a partnership with Rivarossi failed Athearn and Lionel teamed up. The Virginian electric was composed, at first, of a Lionel body design on an Athearn Hi-F drive (rubber band drive). I think the Athearn frame was from their GP 7 or  9 or whatever it supposed to a copy of.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      Athearn sold the engine under their name and Lionel sold the same engine with the Lionel logo on it. Again both used only the Hi-F / Rubber Band Drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        Later Lionel got out of the partnership and sold the Virginian eclectic with their own drive ( pictures I sent ). This drive used "O" rings to drive two geared trucks. Lionel also produced this electric in Pennsylvania and New Haven colors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       I can't send any pictures of the Athearn / Lionel with rubber band  Hi-F drives as I don't have one. I think you must have an Athearn Hi-F drive in yours to ask if it was the only drive but as you see you can slip the Lionel drive under it as the same body was used for all runs of Athearn and Lionel. I didn't mean to throw you a curve. Hope this helps. Be glad to try to answer more and clearer if need be. I'm sure others more knowledgeable about Athearn will answer you too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11383
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn / Lionel Virginian Electric
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Frank B, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
My knowledge of vintage HO comes mostly from having an item in my collection. My 
knowledge of exactly what Athearn had as far as this particular 
engine would be limited to things read and I only found references to 
Hi-F (rbd). I know the Lionel version (both body and drive) was gear driven as 
far as in the trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              If you 
found the Athearn version with a geared drive that's great. Tomorrow I will 
have to reread the Greenberg guides to Athearn and to Lionel (which also has 
background about the Athearn electric).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             There is so 
much HO history out there some of which is unknown at this time that my motto is 
"Never say never". I hope some very knowledgeable Athearn experts would add to 
this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Thanks        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 8:21 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn / Lionel 
  Virginian Electric
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim; your knowledge of vintage HO greatly exceeds mine, but Athearn did 
  this Virginian shortened electric with both the rubber band drive and later 
  the gear drive. Found one in the basement of AHC when I was working there, and 
  bought it. Picked up a few of the shells over the years when I was modeling a 
  freelance road. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Otherwise you're right as far as I know. And the gear 
  drive I have is really rough, but a later GP7 drive is a snap in (look for the 
  one with the two nubs on each side).

                                                                                                                                                                                      Frank Bongiovanni

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Matt 
  C,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > First all the pictures I sent are of the Lionel HO 
  electric that had the Lionel "O" Ring drive (not RBD.) I hope I can get the 
  facts straight trying to type one finger.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Lionel needed 
  someone to produce HO items for them since they had nothing ready. After a 
  partnership with Rivarossi failed Athearn and Lionel teamed up. The Virginian 
  electric was composed, at first, of a Lionel body design on an Athearn Hi-F 
  drive (rubber band drive). I think the Athearn frame was from their GP 7 or 9 
  or whatever it supposed to a copy of.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Athearn sold the engine 
  under their name and Lionel sold the same engine with the Lionel logo on it. 
  Again both used only the Hi-F / Rubber Band Drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Later 
  Lionel got out of the partnership and sold the Virginian eclectic with their 
  own drive ( pictures I sent ). This drive used "O" rings to drive two geared 
  trucks. Lionel also produced this electric in Pennsylvania and New Haven 
  colors
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I can't send any pictures of the Athearn / Lionel with 
  rubber band Hi-F drives as I don't have one. I think you must have an Athearn 
  Hi-F drive in yours to ask if it was the only drive but as you see you can 
  slip the Lionel drive under it as the same body was used for all runs of 
  Athearn and Lionel. I didn't mean to throw you a curve. Hope this helps. Be 
  glad to try to answer more and clearer if need be. I'm sure others more 
  knowledgeable about Athearn will answer you too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11384
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 8/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn / Lionel Virginian Electric
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a Virginian electric that I acquired used a couple of years ago.  According to one of the Guides to Athearn that I have Athearn sold them as Hi F (RBD) and Lionel sold them as gear drivenn.  The Lionel version was supposed to have their "L in a circle" logo on the sides of the unit. The version I have is gear driven, but does not have the Lionel logo. So what to make of it? Not much. It is +- 50 years old.  Its original owner may have bought it as a dummy and put the present geared drive on it....IF I had been so lucky as to have received its original box I would know what came with it from Athearn, but today there is no conclusive way to know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      They are a tad on the less seen models today, I am happy to simply have it as part of my accumulation of 1950's Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sun, 8/9/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn / Lionel Virginian Electric
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 5:48 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Frank B, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                     My knowledge of vintage HO comes mostly from having an item in my collection. My knowledge of exactly what Athearn had as far as this particular engine would be limited to things read and I only found references to Hi-F (rbd). I know the Lionel version (both body and drive) was gear driven as far as in the trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              If you found the Athearn version with a geared drive that's great. Tomorrow I will have to reread the Greenberg guides to Athearn and to Lionel (which also has background about the Athearn electric).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             There is so much HO history out there some of which is unknown at this time that my motto is "Never say never". I hope some very knowledgeable Athearn experts would add to this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Thanks        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 8:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn / Lionel Virginian Electric
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim; your knowledge of vintage HO greatly exceeds mine, but Athearn did this Virginian shortened electric with both the rubber band drive and later the gear drive. Found one in the basement of AHC when I was working there, and bought it. Picked up a few of the shells over the years when I was modeling a freelance road. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Otherwise you're right as far as I know. And the gear drive I have is really rough, but a later GP7 drive is a snap in (look for the one with the two nubs on each side).

                                                                                                                                                                                      Frank Bongiovanni

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Matt C,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > First all the pictures I sent are of the Lionel HO electric that had the Lionel "O" Ring drive (not RBD.) I hope I can get the facts straight trying to
 type one finger.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Lionel needed someone to produce HO items for them since they had nothing ready. After a partnership with Rivarossi failed Athearn and Lionel teamed up. The Virginian electric was composed, at first, of a Lionel body design on an Athearn Hi-F drive (rubber band drive). I think the Athearn frame was from their GP 7 or 9 or whatever it supposed to a copy of.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Athearn sold the engine under their name and Lionel sold the same engine with the Lionel logo on it. Again both used only the Hi-F / Rubber Band Drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Later Lionel got out of the partnership and sold the Virginian eclectic with their own drive ( pictures I sent ). This drive used "O" rings to drive two geared trucks. Lionel also produced this electric in Pennsylvania and New Haven colors
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I can't send any pictures of the Athearn / Lionel with rubber band Hi-F drives as I don't have one. I think you must have an
 Athearn Hi-F drive in yours to ask if it was the only drive but as you see you can slip the Lionel drive under it as the same body was used for all runs of Athearn and Lionel. I didn't mean to throw you a curve. Hope this helps. Be glad to try to answer more and clearer if need be. I'm sure others more knowledgeable about Athearn will answer you too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >



                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11385
						From: Nelson
						Date: 8/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help with Rivarossi and Intro as new member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I think you're talking about Ray and his friend Joe who are also a fixture at the Greenberg show here in new Jersey. They were AHM & IHC employees, so unfortunately that rules them out for Allegheny parts, which was made long after Rivarossi parted company with them. I've asked, and they don't have any parts for the 90's era retooled Rivarossi locos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Don S. and also a welcome to 'mohoghead77",
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There is a large vendor with Rivarossi-AHM-IHC parts that participates in the large Spring Thaw and First Frost Fall Allentown, PA Ag. Hall shows that might have what you both are looking for.  I do not know his name, but he has a deep stock at the show and more at home that I believe came from AHM/IHC in Philly.  I do not have his name, but based on an old table layout plan, it could be a C.J DeAngelis; perhaps someone else here knows more, as I think the vendor, if not the name, has been mentioned before, several months back. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mohoghead77" <mohoghead77@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > It was suggested that someone on this group could be of assistance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I do repair on HO and O gauge equipment.  A customer of mine has a Rivarossi Allegheny which neither Hornby Intl nor Hornby USA have the parts for. (group owner- I can provide documentation if necessary.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Now to introduce myself.  I model Wabash, Burlington, and Union Pacific in HO.  My first train was an O gauge Allstate NYC diesel Switcher set sold by Sears (engine was by Marx). I have live steam experience and in my personal HO collection I have Varney, Penn Line, and a couple of rare old brass , old Lionel, New One and one or two other pieces that have accumulated. I have ancestors who worked for the Wabash and/or operated steam tractors to operate a sawmill and threshing operation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I have a website for my repair business which I would be happy to discuss with anyone off this group site by contacting me at another email address I use.  I am a Member of the Wabash RR Historical Society.  As this group is for sharing and adding to knowledge on vintage items, I do have some of the old Penn Line paper inserts for their passenger cars of traveling passengers, and also have some items I am "brokering" for a customer's widow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I don't spend a lot of time on Yahoo groups so if you conact me and I don't immediately get back with you I mean no offense by that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I intend to familiarize myself with archive messages so I don't ask questions that are a repeat of past discussions.  Thanks in advance for your patience with a "newby" to the group.  I hope some one can assist with my Rivarossi issue or point me somewhere I have not already tried such as Yardbird ( I know the owner), two or three of the Ebay sites like K4 and MW....... Thanks again and happy modeling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Regards and Follow the Flag!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Mohoghead77
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11386
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 8/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help with Rivarossi and Intro as new member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Nelson, That sounds like them. As you can see, I'm not up on the Rivarossi production time line.  Wasn't it Con-Cor who had the importation agreement with Rivarossi after AHM?  If so, perhaps it would pay to contact Conway, who still owns Con-Cor to see if he has/had parts for the later models or can tell who might have them now.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I think you're talking about Ray and his friend Joe who are also a fixture at the Greenberg show here in new Jersey. They were AHM & IHC employees, so unfortunately that rules them out for Allegheny parts, which was made long after Rivarossi parted company with them. I've asked, and they don't have any parts for the 90's era retooled Rivarossi locos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi Don S. and also a welcome to 'mohoghead77",
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > There is a large vendor with Rivarossi-AHM-IHC parts that participates in the large Spring Thaw and First Frost Fall Allentown, PA Ag. Hall shows that might have what you both are looking for.  I do not know his name, but he has a deep stock at the show and more at home that I believe came from AHM/IHC in Philly.  I do not have his name, but based on an old table layout plan, it could be a C.J DeAngelis; perhaps someone else here knows more, as I think the vendor, if not the name, has been mentioned before, several months back. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mohoghead77" <mohoghead77@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Hello;
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > It was suggested that someone on this group could be of assistance.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I do repair on HO and O gauge equipment.  A customer of mine has a Rivarossi Allegheny which neither Hornby Intl nor Hornby USA have the parts for. (group owner- I can provide documentation if necessary.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Now to introduce myself.  I model Wabash, Burlington, and Union Pacific in HO.  My first train was an O gauge Allstate NYC diesel Switcher set sold by Sears (engine was by Marx). I have live steam experience and in my personal HO collection I have Varney, Penn Line, and a couple of rare old brass , old Lionel, New One and one or two other pieces that have accumulated. I have ancestors who worked for the Wabash and/or operated steam tractors to operate a sawmill and threshing operation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I have a website for my repair business which I would be happy to discuss with anyone off this group site by contacting me at another email address I use.  I am a Member of the Wabash RR Historical Society.  As this group is for sharing and adding to knowledge on vintage items, I do have some of the old Penn Line paper inserts for their passenger cars of traveling passengers, and also have some items I am "brokering" for a customer's widow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I don't spend a lot of time on Yahoo groups so if you conact me and I don't immediately get back with you I mean no offense by that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I intend to familiarize myself with archive messages so I don't ask questions that are a repeat of past discussions.  Thanks in advance for your patience with a "newby" to the group.  I hope some one can assist with my Rivarossi issue or point me somewhere I have not already tried such as Yardbird ( I know the owner), two or three of the Ebay sites like K4 and MW....... Thanks again and happy modeling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Regards and Follow the Flag!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Mohoghead77
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11387
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn / Lionel Virginian Electric
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Woobly913, Frank B,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           There seems to be a little 
difference in information that I would like to straighten to get the history 
right. All this information comes from the Greenberg's guide to Lionel HO 
trains. Pictures and info page 23 and more information page 24.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Unless I'm reading it 
wrong the first rectifier engines were a co venture between a Lionel designed 
body and an Athearn Hi-F RBD drive. These engines were sold by both Athearn and 
Lionel. The differences are cited on the pages I state. Hopefully you have 
the book to read. I found no where stating the joint venture had any other 
drive but the Hi-F rubber band drive. (Doesn't mean there wasn't)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           My understanding is 3 
versions of the rectifier engine were sold.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            (1) Lionel body, 
Athearn Hi-F RBD drive sold by Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            (2) Lionel body, 
Athearn  Hi-F RBD sold by Lionel (with some slight differences then the 
Athearn sold rectifier)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            (3)  Lionel 
body, Lionel geared drive and frame (after Lionel and Athearn parted 
company)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Later after Lionel severed ties 
with Athearn and produced this rectifier engine on it's own it was the still 
Lionel designed body but now on a Lionel designed gear drive drive. This gear 
drive was driven by coil springs that went around the pulleys and you 
joined it into one piece and / or rubber "O' rings. (I'm not sure if either or 
both were original ) but this is the only gear drive mentioned.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Now we all agree that any of the 
bodies designed by Lionel could be switched with either the Athearn Hi-F RBD or 
the Lionel designed gear driven drive making many variations possible and again 
"never say never" to what some find that might be original.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              
Woobly913     Since I also have the Greenberg's guide to 
Athearn trains would you be kind enough to tell me the page it is on that 
ATHEARN used a gear drive under the Lionel Rectifier body that 
were sold by Athearn or Lionel.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  Wobbly913 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 11:45 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn / 
  Lionel Virginian Electric
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a Virginian electric that I acquired used a couple of years 
        ago.  According to one of the Guides to Athearn that I have Athearn 
        sold them as Hi F (RBD) and Lionel sold them as gear drivenn.  The 
        Lionel version was supposed to have their "L in a circle" logo on the 
        sides of the unit. The version I have is gear driven, but does not have 
        the Lionel logo. So what to make of it? Not much. It is +- 50 years 
        old.  Its original owner may have bought it as a dummy and put the 
        present geared drive on it....IF I had been so lucky as to have received 
        its original box I would know what came with it from Athearn, but today 
        there is no conclusive way to know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      They are a tad on the less seen models today, I am happy to simply 
        have it as part of my accumulation of 1950's Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Sun, 8/9/09, jim heckard 
        <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
          jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
          Re: Athearn / Lionel Virginian Electric
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: 
          vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 5:48 
          PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          


                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      Frank B, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
          My knowledge of vintage HO comes mostly from having an item in my 
          collection. My knowledge of exactly what Athearn had as far as this 
          particular engine would be limited to things read and I only 
          found references to Hi-F (rbd). I know the Lionel version (both body 
          and drive) was gear driven as far as in the trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                              If you found the 
          Athearn version with a geared drive that's great. Tomorrow I will 
          have to reread the Greenberg guides to Athearn and to Lionel (which 
          also has background about the Athearn electric).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                             
          There is so much HO history out there some of which is unknown at this 
          time that my motto is "Never say never". I hope some very 
          knowledgeable Athearn experts would add to this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
          Thanks        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 
            8:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 
            Athearn / Lionel Virginian Electric
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            

                                                                                                                                                                                        
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim; your knowledge of vintage HO greatly exceeds mine, but 
            Athearn did this Virginian shortened electric with both the rubber 
            band drive and later the gear drive. Found one in the basement of 
            AHC when I was working there, and bought it. Picked up a few of the 
            shells over the years when I was modeling a freelance road. 
            

                                                                                                                                                                                      Otherwise you're right as far as I know. And the gear drive 
            I have is really rough, but a later GP7 drive is a snap in (look for 
            the one with the two nubs on each side).

                                                                                                                                                                                      Frank 
            Bongiovanni

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou 
            ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > 
            wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Matt C,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > First all the 
            pictures I sent are of the Lionel HO electric that had the Lionel 
            "O" Ring drive (not RBD.) I hope I can get the facts straight trying 
            to type one finger.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Lionel needed someone to 
            produce HO items for them since they had nothing ready. After a 
            partnership with Rivarossi failed Athearn and Lionel teamed up. The 
            Virginian electric was composed, at first, of a Lionel body design 
            on an Athearn Hi-F drive (rubber band drive). I think the Athearn 
            frame was from their GP 7 or 9 or whatever it supposed to a copy 
            of.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Athearn sold the engine under their name and 
            Lionel sold the same engine with the Lionel logo on it. Again both 
            used only the Hi-F / Rubber Band Drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Later 
            Lionel got out of the partnership and sold the Virginian eclectic 
            with their own drive ( pictures I sent ). This drive used "O" rings 
            to drive two geared trucks. Lionel also produced this electric in 
            Pennsylvania and New Haven colors
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I can't send any 
            pictures of the Athearn / Lionel with rubber band Hi-F drives as I 
            don't have one. I think you must have an Athearn Hi-F drive in yours 
            to ask if it was the only drive but as you see you can slip the 
            Lionel drive under it as the same body was used for all runs of 
            Athearn and Lionel. I didn't mean to throw you a curve. Hope this 
            helps. Be glad to try to answer more and clearer if need be. I'm 
            sure others more knowledgeable about Athearn will answer you 
            too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >



                                                                                                                                                                                      
            

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11388
						From: Mike
						Date: 8/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Need Some HO Help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I know this is not vintage HO but need some help. Have a friend who lives in Naperville (Chicago), Illinois and wants to do the following:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
"I am trying to resurrect my HO train project. I have developed a new layout but am looking for someone to help me make the board to contour, lay the track and most importantly do all of the electrical work using DCC. I would love to work with this person so I learn but the DCC electrical with all of the remote switches etc can get pretty difficult. I have tried it and am totally frustrated. I have contacted a few people that advertise in Model Railroader but that are all out of town and want to do the complete project. I only what help getting started and I would do all of the scenery etc as time goes on. Do you have any suggestion on people that may be interested in helping? Or do you have any other suggestions."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Do you know anyone in the Chicago area who would be interested in the attached? Certainly they would be paid. Call me should you want at 708 845 0937 (I am in Chicago).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
THANK YOU,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Spanier
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11389
						From: bongiovanni12001
						Date: 8/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Lionel/Virginian rectifier electric
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Uh, I don't claim to be an expert on Vintage HO.  And I've seen the Greenberg books on Athearn and Lionel, but don't own either.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
To the best of my recollection (hey, come on; this is 38 years ago)when I found my first one of these in AHC's basement it was in an Athearn box, and it did come with geared drive.  We can be reasonably certain that the shell was a Lionel project, as it copies the O tinplate version (in being too short, having four axles instead of six, and being the wrong shade of black).  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
During that Lionel/Athearn partnership I'd suspect that there was some slippage in packaging and marketing.  Didn't Athearn market some of that stuff under their own label when the Lionel/Athearn partnership broke up?  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Frank Bongiovanni
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11390
						From: Nelson
						Date: 8/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Help with Rivarossi and Intro as new member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm not well acquainted with Con-Cor, because they mainly imported Rivarossi items in N scale. I've seen Rivarossi HO coaches with their name on them, and I know they sold Roco E units for a while. The U.S. distributor for Rivarossi post-AHM was Model Expo, and after they folded Rivarossi partnered up with Walthers. Walthers still has a few Allegheny parts available on their website... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?quick=rivarossi+allegheny&quicksrch_butt.x=41&quicksrch_butt.y=10
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
... but the best place to find them is eBay. There are a few sellers there with stock that likely came from the late Golf Manor Hobbies, including 90's thru early 00's production.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Nelson, That sounds like them. As you can see, I'm not up on the Rivarossi production time line.  Wasn't it Con-Cor who had the importation agreement with Rivarossi after AHM?  If so, perhaps it would pay to contact Conway, who still owns Con-Cor to see if he has/had parts for the later models or can tell who might have them now.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11391
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 8/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Strange AC Gilbert Hudson
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Group,

                                                                                                                                                                                      I just got this in the mail, an eBay purchase, and it really has me curious. Obviously some work has been done on the locomotive- what is below the running board does not seem original. But look at the motor! It reminds me of an old Scale-Craft OO motor, though it is not.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Is that the Pittman DC repower for the early alternating current models? If not, what on earth is this? I got two other AC Gilbert Hudsons, one an alternating current model, one a 1950s-ish DC model, and this resembles nothing like what is inside them. The quality of the driver wheels is pretty nice. Very nice spokes on 'em, and I don't think they are original either.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Anyone know what I am looking at here?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Also in the box were three AC Gilbers Osgood-Bradley style coaches. All die cast and lighted, which were prewar production. Leads me to believe this is a
 remotored alternating current locomotive. Plus some Comet and Megow freight cars, and a prewar AC Gilbert reefer. And a knapp tender that was fitted with a Megow coupler (Plan to put it behind my Knapp/Bowser transitiont tooling Mountain)

                                                                                                                                                                                      Other question: The tender for this is an AC Gilbert. But on the deck behind the coalpile, it lacks the raised manufacture lettering, which my other two do have. Bear in mind I have prewar AND postwar hudson tenders, they both have the raised lettering.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I am very curious about this engine, but hope I can make it a real nice runner when all is said and done!

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11392
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 8/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Strange AC Gilbert Hudson [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Group,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Just pulled the motor off the frame, as I noticed zamak rot in the motor housing. It says 'varney' on either side, though it is faint. So it IS a Varney motor. Maybe Prewar 6 volt. Now I need to go through my parts and find a 12 volt motor for this.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Wed, 8/12/09, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Strange AC Gilbert Hudson [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Wednesday, August 12, 2009, 4:59 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      Group,

                                                                                                                                                                                      I just got this in the mail, an eBay purchase, and it really has me curious. Obviously some work has been done on the locomotive- what is below the running board does not seem original. But look at the motor! It reminds me of an old Scale-Craft OO motor, though it is not.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Is that the Pittman DC repower for the early alternating current models? If not, what on earth is this? I got two other AC Gilbert Hudsons, one an alternating current model, one a 1950s-ish DC model, and this resembles nothing like what is inside them. The quality of the driver wheels is pretty nice. Very nice spokes on 'em, and I don't think they are original
 either.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Anyone know what I am looking at here?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Also in the box were three AC Gilbers Osgood-Bradley style coaches. All die cast and lighted, which were prewar production. Leads me to believe this is a
 remotored alternating current locomotive. Plus some Comet and Megow freight cars, and a prewar AC Gilbert reefer. And a knapp tender that was fitted with a Megow coupler (Plan to put it behind my Knapp/Bowser transitiont tooling Mountain)

                                                                                                                                                                                      Other question: The tender for this is an AC Gilbert. But on the deck behind the coalpile, it lacks the raised manufacture lettering, which my other two do have. Bear in mind I have prewar AND postwar hudson tenders, they both have the raised lettering.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I am very curious about this engine, but hope I can make it a real nice runner when all is said and done!

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11393
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Strange AC Gilbert Hudson [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             I'm pretty 
sure by reading your description and looking at the pictures that your 
engine and tender have been modified. The body with the number 5318 would be 
from the pre war Gilbert engine that used an AC motor. The drivers, 
motor and brass frame I haven't really checked out yet but are not original 
Gilbert. I hesitate to write everything about that original Gilbert pre war 
engine as it would take for ever. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I will list some 
books or articles that will be helpful in describing the A C Gilbert / American 
Flyer Hudson productions.  A book by Gary Klein with help from Rick Tonet 
and his fine collection entitled Gilbert and American Flyer.  An article by 
R Linsdey #696 entitled "The Frustrating HO Hudson"  and an articule by 
Gary Klein # 1982  "HO Steam Locomotives Models Produced by the A C 
Gilbert Company 1938-1963". These were published in one of the train magazines 
(not MR or RMC) by I believe TCA members.  Finally a drawing by Don 
Weigel  Feb 16, 1998  of the "A F HO Hudson Pre war A.C. version 
". These books / articles will describe in great detail what is 
original.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I believe there were 
3 distinct versions produced, one pre war with AC motor,  2 post war with 
DC motors plus all had other differences. I can send pictures of the 3 
versions from my collection if wanted.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            As for the drivers , 
brass frame and motor in the engine, and what I believe to be an altered tender, 
 you sent pictures of I would have to check that out more closely. Maybe by 
that time others will help you.  More pictures of the motor would be 
helpful.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 5:59 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Strange AC Gilbert 
  Hudson [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      Group,

                                                                                                                                                                                      I just got this in the mail, an eBay 
        purchase, and it really has me curious. Obviously some work has been 
        done on the locomotive- what is below the running board does not seem 
        original. But look at the motor! It reminds me of an old Scale-Craft OO 
        motor, though it is not.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Is that the Pittman DC repower for the 
        early alternating current models? If not, what on earth is this? I got 
        two other AC Gilbert Hudsons, one an alternating current model, one a 
        1950s-ish DC model, and this resembles nothing like what is inside them. 
        The quality of the driver wheels is pretty nice. Very nice spokes on 
        'em, and I don't think they are original either.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Anyone know what 
        I am looking at here?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Also in the box were three AC Gilbers 
        Osgood-Bradley style coaches. All die cast and lighted, which were 
        prewar production. Leads me to believe this is a remotored alternating 
        current locomotive. Plus some Comet and Megow freight cars, and a prewar 
        AC Gilbert reefer. And a knapp tender that was fitted with a Megow 
        coupler (Plan to put it behind my Knapp/Bowser transitiont tooling 
        Mountain)

                                                                                                                                                                                      Other question: The tender for this is an AC Gilbert. 
        But on the deck behind the coalpile, it lacks the raised manufacture 
        lettering, which my other two do have. Bear in mind I have prewar AND 
        postwar hudson tenders, they both have the raised lettering.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I am 
        very curious about this engine, but hope I can make it a real nice 
        runner when all is said and done!

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve 
  Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11394
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Strange AC Gilbert Hudson
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          A quick guess that the motor is 
the V-1 Varney 6 volt pre war motor and probably Varney Pacific drivers. More 
pictures of motor would help. Others with better eye sight might be able to tell 
from what you have sent . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 6:13 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strange AC 
  Gilbert Hudson
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      Group,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Just pulled the motor off the frame, as I 
        noticed zamak rot in the motor housing. It says 'varney' on either side, 
        though it is faint. So it IS a Varney motor. Maybe Prewar 6 volt. Now I 
        need to go through my parts and find a 12 volt motor for 
        this.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Wed, 8/12/09, Stephen 
        Neubaum <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com> 
        wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
          Stephen Neubaum 
          <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: 
          [vintageHO] Strange AC Gilbert Hudson [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: 
          vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Wednesday, August 12, 2009, 
          4:59 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              Group,

                                                                                                                                                                                      I just got this in the mail, an eBay 
                purchase, and it really has me curious. Obviously some work has 
                been done on the locomotive- what is below the running board 
                does not seem original. But look at the motor! It reminds me of 
                an old Scale-Craft OO motor, though it is not.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Is that 
                the Pittman DC repower for the early alternating current models? 
                If not, what on earth is this? I got two other AC Gilbert 
                Hudsons, one an alternating current model, one a 1950s-ish DC 
                model, and this resembles nothing like what is inside them. The 
                quality of the driver wheels is pretty nice. Very nice spokes on 
                'em, and I don't think they are original either.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Anyone 
                know what I am looking at here?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Also in the box were 
                three AC Gilbers Osgood-Bradley style coaches. All die cast and 
                lighted, which were prewar production. Leads me to believe this 
                is a remotored alternating current locomotive. Plus some Comet 
                and Megow freight cars, and a prewar AC Gilbert reefer. And a 
                knapp tender that was fitted with a Megow coupler (Plan to put 
                it behind my Knapp/Bowser transitiont tooling 
                Mountain)

                                                                                                                                                                                      Other question: The tender for this is an AC 
                Gilbert. But on the deck behind the coalpile, it lacks the 
                raised manufacture lettering, which my other two do have. Bear 
                in mind I have prewar AND postwar hudson tenders, they both have 
                the raised lettering.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I am very curious about this 
                engine, but hope I can make it a real nice runner when all is 
                said and done!

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve 
          Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11395
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: odd engine / motor
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Are these pictures the motor you 
are dealing with ? This is the Varney V-1 pre war 6 volt motor. (Don't 
throw it out, worth a couple of bucks if running).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Also I think the drivers are 
the POST WAR Varney Pacific Drivers with brass rims cast wheels. I 
think the solid brass frame hand made.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I will wait for others to 
comment to see how close I am. I am tired running up and down a flight of steps 
to check against my collection, take pictures and dig out information. Good luck 
with your search.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
 Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11396
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 8/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: odd engine / motor [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                      The motor has some cracking in its frame. I pulled it out of the brackets it was in, and saw the bracket was hiding the word 'Varney' on it. Cross-referenced it with HOSeeker, and found it was a prewar V-1. Yes it is a 3 pole and is 6 volt apparently. But I doubt it works due to the motor frame cracking. These cracks throw it out of alignment and make the armature hard to turn.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I did find that the AC Gilbert drive rods are very slightly too long for the wheelbase this engine has. Shame, because the engine is missing drive rods.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I do have a fondness for the AC Gilbert Hudsons. Probably because the first one I got was a prewar AC current. A friend of mine that is about 85 years old is still active in Boy Scouts, mostly on the administration side. Another friend of mine is 90 (These older gents are also good friends). My 90 year old
 friend is a railfan same as I am. I brought some antique HO stuff to show the 90 year old (His name is Bud), and Bud liked them. Don, the younger fellow, was with his ladyfriend at Bud's place when I visited. Don's ladyfriend said she still had her late husband's old trains and wanted them to go to a good home. She saw what I do with old trains- restore and run them- and gave me the old trains that belonged to her deceased husband when he was young.

                                                                                                                                                                                      In addition to an AC Gilbert engine relettered for the Milwaukee Road, there was a few Varney cars and a prewar Walthers caboose. Plus a TON of fiber tie brass track, with three switches. Some of it is in use now!

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don and his friend Beulah ask about the trains and how they are doing from time to time. I felt it was a special present, that is why I like the old AC Gilbert engines so much.

                                                                                                                                                                                      As for the coaches in the box too, I just got done repainting them in Pullman green, to match the
 other three I have. The lights still work, even!

                                                                                                                                                                                      Interesting about all my AC GIlbert coaches: All had Mantua couplers on them when I got them. All had pilot holes that were drilled so I could just screw on a Kadee #5 coupler with Kadee draft gear box. Normally I would have left the mantua couplers, as I like them, but these cars are so heavy, I need my Athearn gear drive frames with Cary F3 lead bodies on them, to pull them at any speed! Now that I got a long train, I don't feel as funny if I were to put on a full A-B-B-A set! The Athearn frames meant I had to use Kadee couplers, of course...

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks again!
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Wed, 8/12/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] odd engine / motor [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      To:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Wednesday, August 12, 2009, 7:49 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Are these pictures the motor you 
are dealing with ? This is the Varney V-1 pre war 6 volt motor. (Don't 
throw it out, worth a couple of bucks if running).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Also I think the drivers are 
the POST WAR Varney Pacific Drivers with brass rims cast wheels. I 
think the solid brass frame hand made.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I will wait for others to 
comment to see how close I am. I am tired running up and down a flight of steps 
to check against my collection, take pictures and dig out information. Good luck 
with your search.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
 Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11397
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 8/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: how do U all handle new, vintage acquisitions? (cosmetic, etc.)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      >I've been wanting to get opinions on this for a while.  Over the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>past few months that I have been a member of this group, I have, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>happily, re-acquired a few things I had as a young person, and a few 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>other things I dreamed about as a young person, but could never 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>afford.  (Still can't afford a lot.....great progress there.....ha)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Within this group's files, I see models that appear in original, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
used, vintage condition.  Un-restored sometimes, sometimes dressed in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
what appears to be new paint.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
A couple of the Mantua engines I've picked up arrived still, "in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
white," or unfinished, original cast metal color.  I'm leaving them 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
just as they are.  I have an early Mantua all-cast Pacific that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
someone painted the boiler casting/cab only.  Not sure how to handle that one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have a couple friends that have an old rifle or two, and I know 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
they leave them alone as refinishing them kills value.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
What old HO I now have I am slowly putting into good running shape, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and will use them a little.  It is the cosmetics I'm thinking over.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
What do all of you do with yours?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11398
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: odd engine / motor
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Hope I was able to help. 
Lets see if others concur or have different opinion. If they are Varney drivers 
on your engine as I think you might be able to get main and side rods but I 
believe the valve gear set up vastly different then whets on yours.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           As for the couplers on the 
American Flyer passenger cars they were cast and flimsy. Zinc pest attacked 
them  and they also got broke easy. I have seen them reproduced and anyone 
doing spin casting can produce easily if the have 1 original to use as a pattern 
to make the mold.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            The armature of that 
V-1 motor still valuable. Throw it my way if you get rid of it. I'll pay 
postage.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Have a good 
one.                                    
Jim H----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 9:09 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd engine / 
  motor
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                      The motor has some cracking in its frame. I 
        pulled it out of the brackets it was in, and saw the bracket was hiding 
        the word 'Varney' on it. Cross-referenced it with HOSeeker, and found it 
        was a prewar V-1. Yes it is a 3 pole and is 6 volt apparently. But I 
        doubt it works due to the motor frame cracking. These cracks throw it 
        out of alignment and make the armature hard to turn.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I did find 
        that the AC Gilbert drive rods are very slightly too long for the 
        wheelbase this engine has. Shame, because the engine is missing drive 
        rods.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I do have a fondness for the AC Gilbert Hudsons. Probably 
        because the first one I got was a prewar AC current. A friend of mine 
        that is about 85 years old is still active in Boy Scouts, mostly on the 
        administration side. Another friend of mine is 90 (These older gents are 
        also good friends). My 90 year old friend is a railfan same as I am. I 
        brought some antique HO stuff to show the 90 year old (His name is Bud), 
        and Bud liked them. Don, the younger fellow, was with his ladyfriend at 
        Bud's place when I visited. Don's ladyfriend said she still had her late 
        husband's old trains and wanted them to go to a good home. She saw what 
        I do with old trains- restore and run them- and gave me the old trains 
        that belonged to her deceased husband when he was young.

                                                                                                                                                                                      In 
        addition to an AC Gilbert engine relettered for the Milwaukee Road, 
        there was a few Varney cars and a prewar Walthers caboose. Plus a TON of 
        fiber tie brass track, with three switches. Some of it is in use 
        now!

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don and his friend Beulah ask about the trains and how they 
        are doing from time to time. I felt it was a special present, that is 
        why I like the old AC Gilbert engines so much.

                                                                                                                                                                                      As for the coaches 
        in the box too, I just got done repainting them in Pullman green, to 
        match the other three I have. The lights still work, 
        even!

                                                                                                                                                                                      Interesting about all my AC GIlbert coaches: All had Mantua 
        couplers on them when I got them. All had pilot holes that were drilled 
        so I could just screw on a Kadee #5 coupler with Kadee draft gear box. 
        Normally I would have left the mantua couplers, as I like them, but 
        these cars are so heavy, I need my Athearn gear drive frames with Cary 
        F3 lead bodies on them, to pull them at any speed! Now that I got a long 
        train, I don't feel as funny if I were to put on a full A-B-B-A set! The 
        Athearn frames meant I had to use Kadee couplers, of 
        course...

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks again!
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Wed, 
        8/12/09, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> 
wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
          jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] odd 
          engine / motor [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: 
          vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Wednesday, August 12, 2009, 
          7:49 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                          Are these pictures the 
          motor you are dealing with ? This is the Varney V-1 pre war 6 
          volt motor. (Don't throw it out, worth a couple of bucks if 
          running).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                          Also I think the 
          drivers are the POST WAR Varney Pacific Drivers with brass 
          rims cast wheels. I think the solid brass frame hand 
made.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                          I will wait for others 
          to comment to see how close I am. I am tired running up and down a 
          flight of steps to check against my collection, take pictures and dig 
          out information. Good luck with your search.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
           Jim 
        H
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11399
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: how do U all handle new, vintage acquisitions? (cosmetic, etc.)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denis,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               If 
the HO item came factory painted and an original non modified piece it is best 
not to touch it. Just like your friends guns, best left alone. If the item was a 
kit of came assembled undecorated ("in the white "you mention) then it is your 
decision to paint it or not. A good paint and decal job can enhance the 
value of these engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            As a collector I 
like to leave my assembled kits and undecorated items from the factory as is to 
show the different materials in them such as cast metal, sheet or cast brass and 
bronze, aluminum, and wood in some pre war and early items.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            You will also run 
into is it better to keep an item in kit form or assemble it. Personal 
preference is best as far as I'm concerned. It is highly debatable if value 
changes either way. When you sell an item , either kit form or assembled will 
depend on the buyers preference and the value he puts on the item. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            My take on 
it.   
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 9:29 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] how do U all handle 
  new, vintage acquisitions? (cosmetic, etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      >I've been wanting to get opinions on this for a while. Over the 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      >past few months that I have been a member of this group, I have, 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      >happily, re-acquired a few things I had as a young person, and a few 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      >other things I dreamed about as a young person, but could never 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      >afford. (Still can't afford a lot.....great progress 
  there.....ha)

                                                                                                                                                                                      Within this group's files, I see models that appear in 
  original, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      used, vintage condition. Un-restored sometimes, sometimes 
  dressed in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      what appears to be new paint.

                                                                                                                                                                                      A couple of the Mantua 
  engines I've picked up arrived still, "in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      white," or unfinished, 
  original cast metal color. I'm leaving them 
                                                                                                                                                                                      just as they are. I have an 
  early Mantua all-cast Pacific that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      someone painted the boiler casting/cab 
  only. Not sure how to handle that one.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a couple friends that 
  have an old rifle or two, and I know 
                                                                                                                                                                                      they leave them alone as refinishing 
  them kills value.

                                                                                                                                                                                      What old HO I now have I am slowly putting into good 
  running shape, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      and will use them a little. It is the cosmetics I'm 
  thinking over.

                                                                                                                                                                                      What do all of you do with 
  yours?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11400
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 8/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: how do U all handle new, vintage acquisitions? (cosmetic, etc.)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I don't personally care about the train's value. The difference between a vintage rifle and vintage train is that the old rifle just sits there. The train does something. It should run (In my opinion) and it should look respectable.

                                                                                                                                                                                      It varies, what I do. Old coaches are nearly always repainted into Pullman Green with black roofs and ends. (assuming heavyweights). My Gilbert coaches are in all pullman green, including green roofs. I rarely run them with anything else (except maybe an old express car in head end service), so they can be painted different.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Steamers, if badly chipped, are put into a glossy black. Unlettered, same as my coaches, so they can be used with anything.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a bunch of Picard Novelty wood boxcars. The roof ribs were falling apart. I made new ribs and affixed them, then gave the roof a fresh coat. Huge difference now
 from when they arrived.

                                                                                                                                                                                      My apartment (Particularly the forward half from the kitchen to the living room) is known around here as the '1/87 scale Illinois Railway Museum', due to the antique trains I mostly run, and the old transit memoribilia on the walls, mixed with framed vintage instructions and old model boxes on display.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Keeping in tune with the IRM, I have some stuff that looks good as new, some that sits there and is more or less a project that I will GET to, but who knows when (Go to the back lot of the IRM, and you will see plenty of deteriorated old stuff).

                                                                                                                                                                                      Some cars get new overlays or sides on them, as I have them. Usually I am not true to the original- Two of my Mantua reefers, the old brass and cast cars, have Comet sides on them.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I keep with what I called 'plausable original'. Mind that during WWII hobby products made of metal were simply unavailable, and many modelers used what was on hand or could be salvaged
 to keep their trains running (Much as the prototype railroads were doing!). A hobbyist back then might put Varney trucks on a Comet car, or switch out detail parts like brakewheels or underframe detail. If the parts were from the same era, I have no issue swapping like what could be done back in  those days.

                                                                                                                                                                                      This also means I am now skilled at wood and card modeling. I have recently scratchbuild a few nice structures for my layout in basswood or cardstock. A basswood factory, and a cardstock apartment with some bass/balsa wood detailing, in HO, and a basswood house in O scale. There are few plastic buildings on my layout, mostly they are in the area under my air conditioner unit, as that thing leaks occasionally, despite landlord's attempts to fix it. He told me due to where my layout is, he does not want to pull it out and replace it. Once I had the AC unit leak on a basswood church, and I was very very upset to find the building warped
 beyond repair, so I bought some plastic buildings to put there.

                                                                                                                                                                                      This gives you an idea of my take on vintage railroading. Sorry 'bout the rambling.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Wed, 8/12/09, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Dennis Thompson <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] how do U all handle new, vintage acquisitions? (cosmetic, etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Wednesday, August 12, 2009, 8:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I've been wanting to get opinions on this for a while.  Over the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>past few months that I have been a member of this group, I have, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>happily, re-acquired a few things I had as a young person, and a few 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>other things I dreamed about as a young person, but could never 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>afford.  (Still can't afford a lot.....great progress there.....ha)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Within this group's files, I see models that appear in original, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
used, vintage condition.  Un-restored sometimes, sometimes dressed in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
what appears to be new paint.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
A couple of the Mantua engines I've picked up arrived still, "in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
white," or unfinished, original cast metal color.  I'm leaving them 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
just as they are.  I have an early Mantua all-cast Pacific that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
someone painted the boiler casting/cab only.  Not sure how to handle that one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have a couple friends that have an old rifle or two, and I know 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
they leave them alone as refinishing them kills value.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
What old HO I now have I am slowly putting into good running shape, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and will use them a little.  It is the cosmetics I'm thinking over.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
What do all of you do with yours?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11401
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 8/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: odd engine / motor
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                      I was thinking the armature and brushes would still be good. You want them? They're yours. I could just send you the whole motor and you can pull off what you want. I could ship the thing in a USPS small flatrate box.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Actually, the valve gear and hanger assembly is the old Gilbert one. The screw, though, is too big for the Varney drivers. It almost seems like the previous owner gave up at this point maybe.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I heard that the original Gilbert couplers were flimsy. I guess that is why so many cars had Mantua couplers on them.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Wed, 8/12/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd engine / motor
                                                                                                                                                                                      To:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Wednesday, August 12, 2009, 8:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Hope I was able to help. 
Lets see if others concur or have different opinion. If they are Varney drivers 
on your engine as I think you might be able to get main and side rods but I 
believe the valve gear set up vastly different then whets on yours.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           As for the couplers on the 
American Flyer passenger cars they were cast and flimsy. Zinc pest attacked 
them  and they also got broke easy. I have seen them reproduced and anyone 
doing spin casting can produce easily if the have 1 original to use as a pattern 
to make the mold.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            The armature of that 
V-1 motor still valuable. Throw it my way if you get rid of it. I'll pay 
postage.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Have a good 
one.                                    
Jim H----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 9:09 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd engine / 
  motor
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                      The motor has some cracking in its frame. I 
        pulled it out of the brackets it was in, and saw the bracket was hiding 
        the word 'Varney' on it. Cross-referenced it with HOSeeker, and found it 
        was a prewar V-1. Yes it is a 3 pole and is 6 volt apparently. But I 
        doubt it works due to the motor frame cracking. These cracks throw it 
        out of alignment and make the armature hard to turn.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I did find 
        that the AC Gilbert drive rods are very slightly too long for the 
        wheelbase this engine has. Shame, because the engine is missing drive 
        rods.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I do have a fondness for the AC Gilbert Hudsons. Probably 
        because the first one I got was a prewar AC current. A friend of mine 
        that is about 85 years old is still active in Boy Scouts, mostly on the 
        administration side. Another friend of mine is 90 (These older gents are 
        also good friends). My 90 year old friend is a railfan same as I am. I 
        brought some antique HO stuff to show the 90 year old (His name is Bud), 
        and Bud liked them. Don, the younger fellow, was with his ladyfriend at 
        Bud's place when I visited. Don's ladyfriend said she still had her late 
        husband's old trains and wanted them to go to a good home. She saw what 
        I do with old trains- restore and run them- and gave me the old trains 
        that belonged to her deceased husband when he was young.

                                                                                                                                                                                      In 
        addition to an AC Gilbert engine relettered for the Milwaukee Road, 
        there was a few Varney cars and a prewar Walthers caboose. Plus a TON of 
        fiber tie brass track, with three switches. Some of it is in use 
        now!

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don and his friend Beulah ask about the trains and how they 
        are doing from time to time. I felt it was a special present, that is 
        why I like the old AC Gilbert engines so much.

                                                                                                                                                                                      As for the coaches 
        in the box too, I just got done repainting them in Pullman green, to 
        match the other three I have. The lights still work, 
        even!

                                                                                                                                                                                      Interesting about all my AC GIlbert coaches: All had Mantua 
        couplers on them when I got them. All had pilot holes that were drilled 
        so I could just screw on a Kadee #5 coupler with Kadee draft gear box. 
        Normally I would have left the mantua couplers, as I like them, but 
        these cars are so heavy, I need my Athearn gear drive frames with Cary 
        F3 lead bodies on them, to pull them at any speed! Now that I got a long 
        train, I don't feel as funny if I were to put on a full A-B-B-A set! The 
        Athearn frames meant I had to use Kadee couplers, of 
        course...

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks again!
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Wed, 
        8/12/09, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> 
wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
          jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] odd 
          engine / motor [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: 
          vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Wednesday, August 12, 2009, 
          7:49 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                          Are these pictures the 
          motor you are dealing with ? This is the Varney V-1 pre war 6 
          volt motor. (Don't throw it out, worth a couple of bucks if 
          running).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                          Also I think the 
          drivers are the POST WAR Varney Pacific Drivers with brass 
          rims cast wheels. I think the solid brass frame hand 
made.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                          I will wait for others 
          to comment to see how close I am. I am tired running up and down a 
          flight of steps to check against my collection, take pictures and dig 
          out information. Good luck with your search.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
           Jim 
        H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11402
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: odd engine / motor
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                         Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Contact me off 
site  at    jimheck@...  and I will give you 
my address. I will send you what ever postage you spend.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 9:49 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd engine / 
  motor
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                      I was thinking the armature and brushes would 
        still be good. You want them? They're yours. I could just send you the 
        whole motor and you can pull off what you want. I could ship the thing 
        in a USPS small flatrate box.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Actually, the valve gear and hanger 
        assembly is the old Gilbert one. The screw, though, is too big for the 
        Varney drivers. It almost seems like the previous owner gave up at this 
        point maybe.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I heard that the original Gilbert couplers were 
        flimsy. I guess that is why so many cars had Mantua couplers on 
        them.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Wed, 8/12/09, jim heckard 
        <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
          jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
          odd engine / motor
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 
          Wednesday, August 12, 2009, 8:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                           Hope I was able 
          to help. Lets see if others concur or have different opinion. If they 
          are Varney drivers on your engine as I think you might be able to 
          get main and side rods but I believe the valve gear set up vastly 
          different then whets on yours.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                           As for the 
          couplers on the American Flyer passenger cars they were cast and 
          flimsy. Zinc pest attacked them  and they also got broke easy. I 
          have seen them reproduced and anyone doing spin casting can produce 
          easily if the have 1 original to use as a pattern to make the 
          mold.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                            The 
          armature of that V-1 motor still valuable. Throw it my way if you 
          get rid of it. I'll pay postage.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
          Have a good 
          one.                                    
          Jim H----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 
            Wednesday, August 12, 2009 9:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: 
            Re: [vintageHO] odd engine / motor
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            

                                                                                                                                                                                        
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
              
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                      The motor has some cracking in its 
                  frame. I pulled it out of the brackets it was in, and saw the 
                  bracket was hiding the word 'Varney' on it. Cross-referenced 
                  it with HOSeeker, and found it was a prewar V-1. Yes it is a 3 
                  pole and is 6 volt apparently. But I doubt it works due to the 
                  motor frame cracking. These cracks throw it out of alignment 
                  and make the armature hard to turn.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I did find that the 
                  AC Gilbert drive rods are very slightly too long for the 
                  wheelbase this engine has. Shame, because the engine is 
                  missing drive rods.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I do have a fondness for the AC 
                  Gilbert Hudsons. Probably because the first one I got was a 
                  prewar AC current. A friend of mine that is about 85 years old 
                  is still active in Boy Scouts, mostly on the administration 
                  side. Another friend of mine is 90 (These older gents are also 
                  good friends). My 90 year old friend is a railfan same as I 
                  am. I brought some antique HO stuff to show the 90 year old 
                  (His name is Bud), and Bud liked them. Don, the younger 
                  fellow, was with his ladyfriend at Bud's place when I visited. 
                  Don's ladyfriend said she still had her late husband's old 
                  trains and wanted them to go to a good home. She saw what I do 
                  with old trains- restore and run them- and gave me the old 
                  trains that belonged to her deceased husband when he was 
                  young.

                                                                                                                                                                                      In addition to an AC Gilbert engine relettered 
                  for the Milwaukee Road, there was a few Varney cars and a 
                  prewar Walthers caboose. Plus a TON of fiber tie brass track, 
                  with three switches. Some of it is in use now!

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don and 
                  his friend Beulah ask about the trains and how they are doing 
                  from time to time. I felt it was a special present, that is 
                  why I like the old AC Gilbert engines so much.

                                                                                                                                                                                      As for 
                  the coaches in the box too, I just got done repainting them in 
                  Pullman green, to match the other three I have. The lights 
                  still work, even!

                                                                                                                                                                                      Interesting about all my AC GIlbert 
                  coaches: All had Mantua couplers on them when I got them. All 
                  had pilot holes that were drilled so I could just screw on a 
                  Kadee #5 coupler with Kadee draft gear box. Normally I would 
                  have left the mantua couplers, as I like them, but these cars 
                  are so heavy, I need my Athearn gear drive frames with Cary F3 
                  lead bodies on them, to pull them at any speed! Now that I got 
                  a long train, I don't feel as funny if I were to put on a full 
                  A-B-B-A set! The Athearn frames meant I had to use Kadee 
                  couplers, of course...

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks again!
                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve 
                  Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Wed, 8/12/09, jim heckard 
                  <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim 
                    heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] 
                    odd engine / motor [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: 
                    vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Wednesday, August 12, 
                    2009, 7:49 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                        
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                          Are these 
                    pictures the motor you are dealing with ? This is the Varney 
                    V-1 pre war 6 volt motor. (Don't throw it out, worth a 
                    couple of bucks if running).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                          Also I think 
                    the drivers are the POST WAR Varney Pacific 
                    Drivers with brass rims cast wheels. I think the solid brass 
                    frame hand made.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                          I will wait 
                    for others to comment to see how close I am. I am tired 
                    running up and down a flight of steps to check against my 
                    collection, take pictures and dig out information. Good luck 
                    with your search.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
                     Jim 
                    H
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11403
						From: Ray Marinaccio
						Date: 8/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: how do U all handle new, vintage acquisitions? (cosmetic, etc.)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I like to finish mine as they would have been assembled and painted as a modeler would have in that era. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       If a model is in excellent condition I would restore it to as close to original as possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       If to many parts are missing that aren't available I will substitute or fabricate parts and finish it as a customized model of that era.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Wed, 8/12/09, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Dennis Thompson <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] how do U all handle new, vintage acquisitions? (cosmetic, etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Wednesday, August 12, 2009, 6:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      >I've been wanting to get opinions on this for a while.  Over the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >past few months that I have been a member of this group, I have, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >happily, re-acquired a few things I had as a young person, and a few 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >other things I dreamed about as a young person, but could never 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >afford.  (Still can't afford a lot.....great progress there.....ha)


                                                                                                                                                                                      Within this group's files, I see models that appear in original, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      used, vintage condition.  Un-restored sometimes, sometimes dressed in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      what appears to be new paint.

                                                                                                                                                                                      A couple of the Mantua engines I've picked up arrived still, "in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      white," or unfinished, original cast metal color.  I'm leaving them 
                                                                                                                                                                                      just as they are.  I have an early Mantua all-cast Pacific that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      someone painted the boiler casting/cab only.  Not sure how to handle that one.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a couple friends that have an old rifle or two,
 and I know 
                                                                                                                                                                                      they leave them alone as refinishing them kills value.

                                                                                                                                                                                      What old HO I now have I am slowly putting into good running shape, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      and will use them a little.  It is the cosmetics I'm thinking over.

                                                                                                                                                                                      What do all of you do with yours?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis



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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11404
						From: George Frey
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: newbie and a Question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello group I am a newbie here but not to H.O collecting, I hope you fine folks can help me out as I have a question? I want to replace some of my cars and start collecting the good old vintage stuff, and my question is this: is there a current manufacturer for replacement Varney items I am considering buying an old Varney #2040 metal Santa Fe Box car that will need some repaire, I plane to strip and repaint it in its original markings, and have found out it needs these things
                                                                                                                                                                                      
1. a brake wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                      
2.1 stirrups( step)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
3. all roof hatches
                                                                                                                                                                                      
4. undercarriage brake detail
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 I like to rebuild and restore old models of this type and turn them into "Jewels" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
so my question is where can I find these parts or are they even available
                                                                                                                                                                                      
they can be aftermarket parts if need be.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sorry to be so long winded but I needed this question answered .
                                                                                                                                                                                      
thank YOU
                                                                                                                                                                                      
George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11405
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: newbie and a Question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I think that stripping a factory-painted and lettered model, even to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
original markings, ruins it as a collector piece.  If the model was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
originally offered as "undecorated", then it would be OK.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 12:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] newbie and a Question
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hello group I am a newbie here but not to H.O collecting, I hope you fine 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> folks can help me out as I have a question? I want to replace some of my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> cars and start collecting the good old vintage stuff, and my question is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> this: is there a current manufacturer for replacement Varney items I am 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> considering buying an old Varney #2040 metal Santa Fe Box car that will 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> need some repaire, I plane to strip and repaint it in its original 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> markings, and have found out it needs these things
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 1. a brake wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 2.1 stirrups( step)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 3. all roof hatches
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 4. undercarriage brake detail
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I like to rebuild and restore old models of this type and turn them into 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> "Jewels"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> so my question is where can I find these parts or are they even available
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> they can be aftermarket parts if need be.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sorry to be so long winded but I needed this question answered .
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> thank YOU
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
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No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.53/2299 - Release Date: 08/12/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
18:12:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11406
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Gondola id help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I received an unusual gondola in the mail yesterday and was hoping someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
could identify it ... http://www.marx-trains.com/ho-trains/maybe-marx.html . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The gondola I have is the red New York Central one. Also shown is a tender 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and passenger car lettered for Western & Atlantic. Any help would be greatly 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Steve W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11407
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Gondola id help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Error in URL ... should be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.marx-trains.com/ho-trains/notes/maybe-marx.html. Sorry, had a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
senior moment there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >I received an unusual gondola in the mail yesterday and was hoping someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>could identify it ... http://www.marx-trains.com/ho-trains/maybe-marx.html 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>. The gondola I have is the red New York Central one. Also shown is a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>tender and passenger car lettered for Western & Atlantic. Any help would be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>greatly appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Steve W 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11408
						From: George Frey
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Gondola id help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      neither link works
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com; HOtrains@yahoogroups.com; Marx_traders@yahoogroups.com; MarxTrain@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 2:27:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Error in URL ... should be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.marx-trains.com/ho-trains/notes/maybe-marx.html. Sorry, had a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      senior moment there.

                                                                                                                                                                                       >I received an unusual gondola in the mail yesterday and was hoping someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >could identify it ... http://www.marx- trains.com/ ho-trains/ maybe-marx. html 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >. The gondola I have is the red New York Central one. Also shown is a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >tender and passenger car lettered for Western & Atlantic. Any help would be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >greatly appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Steve W 

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11409
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Gondola id help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      George,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I don't know what to tell you. I just uploaded a redirect from the "bad" URL 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to the "good" URL and they both worked for me. Either try to cut and paste 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
or type the address into your browser .....
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Steve W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 6:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
neither link works
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com; HOtrains@yahoogroups.com; 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Marx_traders@yahoogroups.com; MarxTrain@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 2:27:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Error in URL ... should be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.marx-trains.com/ho-trains/notes/maybe-marx.html. Sorry, had a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
senior moment there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I received an unusual gondola in the mail yesterday and was hoping someone
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>could identify it ... http://www.marx- trains.com/ ho-trains/ maybe-marx. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>html
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>. The gondola I have is the red New York Central one. Also shown is a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>tender and passenger car lettered for Western & Atlantic. Any help would be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>greatly appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Steve W 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11410
						From: George Frey
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Gondola id help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      im not stupid i DID cut and pasted it and the Damm thing still says "broken link' but never mind i lost interest in seeing it anyway now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 3:44:51 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      George,

                                                                                                                                                                                      I don't know what to tell you. I just uploaded a redirect from the "bad" URL 
                                                                                                                                                                                      to the "good" URL and they both worked for me. Either try to cut and paste 
                                                                                                                                                                                      or type the address into your browser .....

                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve W
                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 6:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help

                                                                                                                                                                                      neither link works

                                                                                                                                                                                      ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@ prrh.org>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com; HOtrains@yahoogroup s.com; 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Marx_traders@ yahoogroups. com; MarxTrain@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 2:27:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help

                                                                                                                                                                                      Error in URL ... should be
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.marx-trains.com/ho-trains/notes/maybe-marx.html. Sorry, had a
                                                                                                                                                                                      senior moment there.

                                                                                                                                                                                      >I received an unusual gondola in the mail yesterday and was hoping someone
                                                                                                                                                                                      >could identify it ... http://www.marx- trains.com/ ho-trains/ maybe-marx. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >html
                                                                                                                                                                                      >. The gondola I have is the red New York Central one. Also shown is a
                                                                                                                                                                                      >tender and passenger car lettered for Western & Atlantic. Any help would be
                                                                                                                                                                                      >greatly appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Steve W


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11411
						From: curmudgeon
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Gondola id help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Remove the period behind the html
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > im not stupid i DID cut and pasted it and the Damm thing still says "broken link' but never mind i lost interest in seeing it anyway now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 3:44:51 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> George,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I don't know what to tell you. I just uploaded a redirect from the "bad" URL 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to the "good" URL and they both worked for me. Either try to cut and paste 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> or type the address into your browser .....
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Steve W
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 6:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> neither link works
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@ prrh.org>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com; HOtrains@yahoogroup s.com; 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Marx_traders@ yahoogroups. com; MarxTrain@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 2:27:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Error in URL ... should be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.marx-trains.com/ho-trains/notes/maybe-marx.html. Sorry, had a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> senior moment there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >I received an unusual gondola in the mail yesterday and was hoping someone
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >could identify it ... http://www.marx- trains.com/ ho-trains/ maybe-marx. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >html
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >. The gondola I have is the red New York Central one. Also shown is a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >tender and passenger car lettered for Western & Atlantic. Any help would be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >greatly appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Steve W
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11412
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Gondola id help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello,

                                                                                                                                                                                      The couplers and trucks look Tri-Ang from Britian. Tri-Ang (Later known as Hornby) made American-design stock at one point, with their couplers. Those arch bar trucks, were used in Britain too, not just the USA. Though the British used them far after they were banned from US Interchange.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Look at Tri-Ang/Hornby websites. Maybe more clues there?

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Thu, 8/13/09, My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, HOtrains@yahoogroups.com, Marx_traders@yahoogroups.com, MarxTrain@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Thursday, August 13, 2009, 4:27 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Error in URL ... should be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.marx- trains.com/ ho-trains/ notes/maybe- marx.html. Sorry, had a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
senior moment there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I received an unusual gondola in the mail yesterday and was hoping someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>could identify it ... http://www.marx- trains.com/ ho-trains/ maybe-marx. html 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>. The gondola I have is the red New York Central one. Also shown is a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>tender and passenger car lettered for Western & Atlantic. Any help would be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>greatly appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Steve W 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11413
						From: Riverboy
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Gondola id help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Group ,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Here is the re-correected link . Everyone please calm down .
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      It's worth taking a look at .

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Thu, 8/13/09, curmudgeon <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: curmudgeon <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Thursday, August 13, 2009, 7:10 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Remove the period behind the html

                                                                                                                                                                                      > im not stupid i DID cut and pasted it and the Damm thing still says "broken link' but never mind i lost interest in seeing it anyway now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@ ...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 3:44:51 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >   
                                                                                                                                                                                      > George,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I don't know what to tell you. I just uploaded a redirect from the "bad" URL 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > to the "good" URL and they both worked for me. Either try to cut and paste 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > or type the address into your browser .....
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Steve W
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: <vintageHO@yahoogro u ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 6:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > neither link works
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@ prrh.org>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com; HOtrains@yahoogroup s.com; 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Marx_traders@ yahoogroups. com; MarxTrain@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 2:27:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Error in URL ... should be
                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://www.marx- trains.com/ ho-trains/ notes/maybe- marx.html. Sorry, had a
                                                                                                                                                                                      > senior moment there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >I received an unusual gondola in the mail yesterday and was hoping someone
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
 >could identify it ... http://www.marx- trains.com/ ho-trains/ maybe-marx. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >html
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >. The gondola I have is the red New York Central one. Also shown is a
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >tender and passenger car lettered for Western & Atlantic. Any help would be
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >greatly appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Steve W
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11414
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Gondola id help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Funny, they BOTH worked for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 5:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
neither link works
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com; HOtrains@yahoogroups.com; 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Marx_traders@yahoogroups.com; MarxTrain@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 2:27:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Error in URL ... should be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.marx-trains.com/ho-trains/notes/maybe-marx.html. Sorry, had a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
senior moment there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I received an unusual gondola in the mail yesterday and was hoping someone
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>could identify it ... http://www.marx- trains.com/ ho-trains/ maybe-marx. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>html
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>. The gondola I have is the red New York Central one. Also shown is a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>tender and passenger car lettered for Western & Atlantic. Any help would be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>greatly appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Steve W 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11415
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: newbie and a Question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      OTOH, There really aren't that many pieces of vintage HO that are valuable 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
enough to worry.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
For every Penn Line Crusader out there, there's a thousand Mantua card side 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
40' box cars in CN paint.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 9:52 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] newbie and a Question
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I think that stripping a factory-painted and lettered model, even to the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> original markings, ruins it as a collector piece.  If the model was
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> originally offered as "undecorated", then it would be OK.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 12:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] newbie and a Question
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Hello group I am a newbie here but not to H.O collecting, I hope you fine
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> folks can help me out as I have a question? I want to replace some of my
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> cars and start collecting the good old vintage stuff, and my question is
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> this: is there a current manufacturer for replacement Varney items I am
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> considering buying an old Varney #2040 metal Santa Fe Box car that will
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> need some repaire, I plane to strip and repaint it in its original
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> markings, and have found out it needs these things
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 1. a brake wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 2.1 stirrups( step)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 3. all roof hatches
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 4. undercarriage brake detail
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I like to rebuild and restore old models of this type and turn them into
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> "Jewels"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> so my question is where can I find these parts or are they even available
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> they can be aftermarket parts if need be.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> sorry to be so long winded but I needed this question answered .
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> thank YOU
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.53/2299 - Release Date: 08/12/09
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 18:12:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11416
						From: George Frey
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: newbie and a Question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      so are parts avalabel for the varney car?
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 5:17:16 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] newbie and a Question

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      OTOH, There really aren't that many pieces of vintage HO that are valuable 
                                                                                                                                                                                      enough to worry.

                                                                                                                                                                                      For every Penn Line Crusader out there, there's a thousand Mantua card side 
                                                                                                                                                                                      40' box cars in CN paint.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                      Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 "Glenn476" <glenn476@4fast. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 9:52 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] newbie and a Question

                                                                                                                                                                                      >I think that stripping a factory-painted and lettered model, even to the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > original markings, ruins it as a collector piece. If the model was
                                                                                                                                                                                      > originally offered as "undecorated" , then it would be OK. gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 12:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [vintageHO] newbie and a Question
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Hello group I am a newbie here but not to H.O collecting, I hope you fine
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> folks can help me out as I have a question? I want to replace some of my
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> cars and start collecting the good old vintage stuff, and my question is
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> this: is there a current manufacturer for replacement Varney items I am
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> considering buying an old Varney #2040 metal Santa Fe Box car that will
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> need some repaire, I plane to strip and repaint it in its original
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> markings, and have found out it needs these things
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> 1. a brake wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> 2.1 stirrups( step)
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> 3. all roof hatches
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> 4. undercarriage brake detail
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> I like to rebuild and restore old models of this type and
 turn them into
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> "Jewels"
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> so my question is where can I find these parts or are they even available
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> they can be aftermarket parts if need be.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> sorry to be so long winded but I needed this question answered .
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> thank YOU
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
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                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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                                                                                                                                                                                      > Yahoo! Groups
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11417
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Gondola id help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             A while 
back I saw an odd steam engine and tender at a train show with those 
couplers on the tender like that gondola that I bought for the fun of it 
for $10 to see what it was. I'm trying to remember as I got rid of it. The 
engine was a ?-6-? . The drivers were red with black spokes. Almost looked to me 
like printed paper glued to the drivers. The engine had a bellows type smoke 
unit made from a paper like product that looked like you would put something 
like powder in it to "smoke" and it was in good shape . The boiler was plastic 
with all detail part of the mold but very cheap looking. The connection from the 
engine to the tender had a long flat metal piece that was about a 1/4 wide and 
bent done on the end that fit into a slot at the front of the tender. Looked 
like a hook up from some other earlier Marx items of a different gauge then 
HO. The tender had that odd coupler at the back. The tender trucks had plastic 
wheels so pickup was in the engine. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          The funny part was the 
engine ran pretty good for how odd it was. It ran on my HO transformer but I 
didn't dig any deeper into the engine to see. There were no markings visible on 
the outside except "Made in Japan". NO MARX INSIGNIA. It got put on the side and 
then discarded. Maybe this will help somehow to help ID the 
gondola.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 5:23 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Gondola id 
help
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I received an unusual gondola in the mail yesterday and was hoping someone 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      could identify it ... http://www.marx- trains.com/ ho-trains/ maybe-marx. html 
  . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      The gondola I have is the red New York Central one. Also shown is a 
  tender 
                                                                                                                                                                                      and passenger car lettered for Western & Atlantic. Any help 
  would be greatly 
                                                                                                                                                                                      appreciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve W 

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11418
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Gondola id help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                               
And just to clarify I am not  talking about the Champ / Saki Prairie which 
was a lot better of an HO engine then the one I described below.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 9:50 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Gondola id 
  help
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             A while 
  back I saw an odd steam engine and tender at a train show with those 
  couplers on the tender like that gondola that I bought for the fun of it 
  for $10 to see what it was. I'm trying to remember as I got rid of it. The 
  engine was a ?-6-? . The drivers were red with black spokes. Almost looked to 
  me like printed paper glued to the drivers. The engine had a bellows type 
  smoke unit made from a paper like product that looked like you would put 
  something like powder in it to "smoke" and it was in good shape . The boiler 
  was plastic with all detail part of the mold but very cheap looking. The 
  connection from the engine to the tender had a long flat metal piece that was 
  about a 1/4 wide and bent done on the end that fit into a slot at the front of 
  the tender. Looked like a hook up from some other earlier Marx items of 
  a different gauge then HO. The tender had that odd coupler at the back. 
  The tender trucks had plastic wheels so pickup was in the engine. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          The funny part was the 
  engine ran pretty good for how odd it was. It ran on my HO transformer but I 
  didn't dig any deeper into the engine to see. There were no markings visible 
  on the outside except "Made in Japan". NO MARX INSIGNIA. It got put on the 
  side and then discarded. Maybe this will help somehow to help ID the 
  gondola.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 5:23 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Gondola id 
    help
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      I received an unusual gondola in the mail yesterday and was hoping 
    someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                      could identify it ... http://www.marx- trains.com/ ho-trains/ maybe-marx. html 
    . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      The gondola I have is the red New York Central one. Also shown is a 
    tender 
                                                                                                                                                                                      and passenger car lettered for Western & Atlantic. Any help 
    would be greatly 
                                                                                                                                                                                      appreciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve W 

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11419
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Gondola id help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Ok, thanks anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 7:05 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
im not stupid i DID cut and pasted it and the Damm thing still says "broken 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
link' but never mind i lost interest in seeing it anyway now!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 3:44:51 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
George,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I don't know what to tell you. I just uploaded a redirect from the "bad" URL
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to the "good" URL and they both worked for me. Either try to cut and paste
                                                                                                                                                                                      
or type the address into your browser .....
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Steve W
                                                                                                                                                                                      
----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 6:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
neither link works
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@ prrh.org>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com; HOtrains@yahoogroup s.com;
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Marx_traders@ yahoogroups. com; MarxTrain@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 2:27:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Error in URL ... should be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.marx-trains.com/ho-trains/notes/maybe-marx.html. Sorry, had a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
senior moment there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I received an unusual gondola in the mail yesterday and was hoping someone
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>could identify it ... http://www.marx- trains.com/ ho-trains/ maybe-marx.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>html
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>. The gondola I have is the red New York Central one. Also shown is a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>tender and passenger car lettered for Western & Atlantic. Any help would be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>greatly appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Steve W 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11420
						From: mohoghead77
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Casey Jones _Varney or Rivarossi???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Doing a repair on a Casey Jones loco for a fellow RR club member.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Any one got rear drive wheels for sale?  My reference indicates Varney as original maker.  Any thoughts on specific year?  Also will Rivarossi drivers work as substitute if originals can not be found?  Seems that the rear wheel drivers are broken where screws or post go into the wheel on both left and right wheel.  Thanks...  Any one in the Warrenton, MO area should stop by number 13 at the outlet mall after a visit to the Trainhaus to ask a club member to show them the modular layout.... Club is just beginning to build an N gauge module as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Some nice vintage stuff as well as new.  Club will hold an open house weekend of Sept. 11 when Traveling Vietnam Memorial is at the mall and Thursdays all day is usually a work day on the module.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for previous suggestions.  I hope to post some pics of some of my vintage Varney and Penn Line Wabash stuff soon.  Do have some items for sale but will talk to you off this group for that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Regards and Follow the Flag!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11421
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: newbie and a Question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have not used them, but other members of the group highly recommend 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Yardbird Trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 http://yardbirdtrains.com/index.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
When I'm getting old cars in shape I usually can find what I need in my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
scrap box.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 8:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] newbie and a Question
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
so are parts avalabel for the varney car?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 5:17:16 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] newbie and a Question
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
OTOH, There really aren't that many pieces of vintage HO that are valuable
                                                                                                                                                                                      
enough to worry.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
For every Penn Line Crusader out there, there's a thousand Mantua card side
                                                                                                                                                                                      
40' box cars in CN paint.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@4fast. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 9:52 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] newbie and a Question
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I think that stripping a factory-painted and lettered model, even to the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> original markings, ruins it as a collector piece. If the model was
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> originally offered as "undecorated" , then it would be OK. gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 12:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] newbie and a Question
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Hello group I am a newbie here but not to H.O collecting, I hope you fine
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> folks can help me out as I have a question? I want to replace some of my
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> cars and start collecting the good old vintage stuff, and my question is
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> this: is there a current manufacturer for replacement Varney items I am
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> considering buying an old Varney #2040 metal Santa Fe Box car that will
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> need some repaire, I plane to strip and repaint it in its original
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> markings, and have found out it needs these things
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 1. a brake wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 2.1 stirrups( step)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 3. all roof hatches
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 4. undercarriage brake detail
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I like to rebuild and restore old models of this type and turn them into
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> "Jewels"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> so my question is where can I find these parts or are they even available
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> they can be aftermarket parts if need be.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> sorry to be so long winded but I needed this question answered .
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> thank YOU
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.53/2299 - Release Date: 08/12/09
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 18:12:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11422
						From: George Frey
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: newbie and a Question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      thats great don but I dont have one of those( Scrap box) yet but i will soon.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      george
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 10:19:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] newbie and a Question

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have not used them, but other members of the group highly recommend 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Yardbird Trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://yardbirdtrai ns.com/index. htm

                                                                                                                                                                                      When I'm getting old cars in shape I usually can find what I need in my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      scrap box.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                      Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 8:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] newbie and a Question

                                                                                                                                                                                      so are parts avalabel for the varney car?

                                                                                                                                                                                      ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent:
 Thursday, August 13, 2009 5:17:16 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] newbie and a Question

                                                                                                                                                                                      OTOH, There really aren't that many pieces of vintage HO that are valuable
                                                                                                                                                                                      enough to worry.

                                                                                                                                                                                      For every Penn Line Crusader out there, there's a thousand Mantua card side
                                                                                                                                                                                      40' box cars in CN paint.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                      Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@4fast. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogro u ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 9:52 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] newbie and a
 Question

                                                                                                                                                                                      >I think that stripping a factory-painted and lettered model, even to the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > original markings, ruins it as a collector piece. If the model was
                                                                                                                                                                                      > originally offered as "undecorated" , then it would be OK. gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: <vintageHO@yahoogro u ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 12:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [vintageHO] newbie and a Question
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Hello group I am a newbie here but not to H.O collecting, I hope you fine
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> folks can help me out as I have a question? I want to replace some of my
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> cars and start collecting the good old vintage stuff, and my question is
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> this: is there a current manufacturer for replacement Varney items I am
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> considering buying an old Varney #2040 metal Santa Fe Box
 car that will
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> need some repaire, I plane to strip and repaint it in its original
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> markings, and have found out it needs these things
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> 1. a brake wheel
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> 2.1 stirrups( step)
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> 3. all roof hatches
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> 4. undercarriage brake detail
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> I like to rebuild and restore old models of this type and turn them into
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> "Jewels"
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> so my question is where can I find these parts or are they even available
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> they can be aftermarket parts if need be.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> sorry to be so long winded but I needed this question answered .
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> thank YOU
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > No
 virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.53/2299 - Release Date: 08/12/09
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 18:12:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11423
						From: Ray Marinaccio
						Date: 8/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Gondola id help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       I have one of those sets here somewhere.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       Not sure who made it though.

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Thu, 8/13/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Thursday, August 13, 2009, 6:50 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             A while back I saw an odd steam engine and tender at a train show with those couplers on the tender like that gondola that I bought for the fun of it for $10 to see what it was. I'm trying to remember as I got rid of it. The engine was a ?-6-? . The drivers were red with black spokes. Almost looked to me like printed paper glued to the drivers. The engine had a bellows type smoke unit made from a paper like product that looked like you would put something like powder in it to "smoke" and it was in good shape . The boiler was plastic with all detail part of the mold but very cheap looking. The connection from the engine to the tender had a long flat metal piece that was about a 1/4 wide and bent done on the end that fit into a slot at the front of the tender. Looked like a hook up from some other earlier Marx items of a different gauge then HO. The tender had that odd
 coupler at the back. The tender trucks had plastic wheels so pickup was in the engine. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          The funny part was the engine ran pretty good for how odd it was. It ran on my HO transformer but I didn't dig any deeper into the engine to see. There were no markings visible on the outside except "Made in Japan". NO MARX INSIGNIA. It got put on the side and then discarded. Maybe this will help somehow to help ID the gondola.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 5:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I received an unusual gondola in the mail yesterday and was hoping someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                      could identify it ... http://www.marx- trains..com/ ho-trains/ maybe-marx. html . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      The gondola I have is the red New York Central one. Also shown is a tender 
                                                                                                                                                                                      and passenger car lettered for Western & Atlantic. Any help would be greatly 
                                                                                                                                                                                      appreciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve W 



                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      __________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      Do You Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                      Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://mail.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11424
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 8/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Casey Jones _Varney or Rivarossi???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      If its an original Varney, there are usually basket cases for sale on ebay in the Varney listings, both the consolidation and ten wheeler (Casey Jones) should be the same drivers, if not, Bowser might work, but then you may need to change all the drivers as Bowser made changes to the frame over the years since aquiring Varney, and since Bowser is getting out of the steam locomotive business, chances are they don't have the parts either, its a strong possiblity that Yardbird Classic Trains would have them, http://yardbirdtrains.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: mohoghead77 <mohoghead77@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:35:47 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Casey Jones _Varney or Rivarossi???

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Doing a repair on a Casey Jones loco for a fellow RR club member.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Any one got rear drive wheels for sale? My reference indicates Varney as original maker. Any thoughts on specific year? Also will Rivarossi drivers work as substitute if originals can not be found? Seems that the rear wheel drivers are broken where screws or post go into the wheel on both left and right wheel. Thanks... Any one in the Warrenton, MO area should stop by number 13 at the outlet mall after a visit to the Trainhaus to ask a club member to show them the modular layout.... Club is just beginning to build an N gauge module as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Some nice vintage stuff as well as new. Club will hold an open house weekend of Sept. 11 when Traveling Vietnam Memorial is at the mall and Thursdays all day is usually a work day on the module.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for previous suggestions. I hope to post some pics of some of my vintage Varney and Penn Line Wabash stuff soon. Do have some items
 for sale but will talk to you off this group for that.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards and Follow the Flag!!!


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11425
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 8/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Casey Jones _Varney or Rivarossi???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I see there are new Varney Casey-Jones drivers and other parts on  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
this page.........
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://yardbirdtrains.com/YBSVparts.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Aug 13, 2009, at 10:35 PM, mohoghead77 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Doing a repair on a Casey Jones loco for a fellow RR club member.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Any one got rear drive wheels for sale?  My reference indicates  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Varney as original maker.  Any thoughts on specific year?  Also  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> will Rivarossi drivers work as substitute if originals can not be  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> found?  Seems that the rear wheel drivers are broken where screws  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> or post go into the wheel on both left and right wheel.  Thanks...   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Any one in the Warrenton, MO area should stop by number 13 at the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> outlet mall after a visit to the Trainhaus to ask a club member to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> show them the modular layout.... Club is just beginning to build an  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> N gauge module as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Some nice vintage stuff as well as new.  Club will hold an open  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> house weekend of Sept. 11 when Traveling Vietnam Memorial is at the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> mall and Thursdays all day is usually a work day on the module.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks for previous suggestions.  I hope to post some pics of some  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of my vintage Varney and Penn Line Wabash stuff soon.  Do have some  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> items for sale but will talk to you off this group for that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Regards and Follow the Flag!!! 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11426
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 8/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Gondola id help
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  
  

 
Neither worked for me initially...  Not even pasting in browser and
leaving off the period at the end...  But finally one worked and I was
able to view the photos.  Just such events as these are why I do not
use the word "computer" as applying to this machine sitting on my
desk...  I call it a "confuser"...  And the harder you try to
make it work, the more often it will fail you.  My theory is we humans
made them and they act just like us.  They work sometimes and sometimes
they don't work.  The key is patience and a good technician in reserve.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Happy railroading...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton
                                                                                                                                                                                      
===================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Funny, they BOTH worked for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 5:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
neither link works
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@ prrh.org>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com;
  HOtrains@yahoogroup s.com;
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Marx_traders@ yahoogroups. com;
  MarxTrain@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 2:27:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Gondola id help
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Error in URL ... should be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  http://www.marx- trains.com/ ho-trains/ notes/maybe- marx.html.
Sorry, had a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
senior moment there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I received an unusual gondola in the mail yesterday and was hoping
someone
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>could identify it ... http://www.marx- trains.com/ ho-trains/
maybe-marx. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>html
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>. The gondola I have is the red New York Central one. Also shown is
a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>tender and passenger car lettered for Western & Atlantic. Any
help would be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>greatly appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Steve W
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11427
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 8/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Casey Jones _Varney or Rivarossi???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 
 
 
 
 

 

 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Just fer
general information. Whilist
I really like dealing with Dan at Yardbird as my first go to for steam stuff,
It oughter be noted that Bowser currently has a
complete parts list on their website. This includes any and all steam parts and
includes if in stock. 
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Editor, Green Bay &
Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Green Bay & Western
Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of  Mike
 Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009
05:43
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Casey
Jones _Varney or Rivarossi???
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I see there are new Varney Casey-Jones drivers and
other parts on 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
this page........ .
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://yardbirdtrai ns.com/YBSVparts .htm
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 Milwaukee Wi ,
 USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Aug 13, 2009, at 10:35 PM, mohoghead77 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Doing a repair on a Casey Jones loco for a fellow RR club member.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Any one got rear drive wheels for sale? My reference indicates 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Varney as original maker. Any thoughts on specific year? Also 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> will Rivarossi drivers work as substitute if originals can not be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> found? Seems that the rear wheel drivers are broken where screws 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> or post go into the wheel on both left and right wheel. Thanks... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Any one in the Warrenton, MO area should stop by number 13 at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> outlet mall after a visit to the Trainhaus to ask a club member to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> show them the modular layout.... Club is just beginning to build an 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> N gauge module as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Some nice vintage stuff as well as new. Club will hold an open 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> house weekend of Sept. 11 when Traveling Vietnam Memorial is at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> mall and Thursdays all day is usually a work day on the module.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks for previous suggestions. I hope to post some pics of some 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of my vintage Varney and Penn Line Wabash stuff soon. Do have some 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> items for sale but will talk to you off this group for that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Regards and Follow the Flag!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11428
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 8/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Chain guards on a Pullman
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Am building a vintage Walthers Pullman kit that provides chain for "chain 
guards" but no directions on the plans as to their placement (as was so common 
with  directions of all kinds of kits or the era). I'm fairly certain they 
are attached to the trucks but am not certain exactly where. I have lots of 
reference material but can't seem to locate an example. I assume they were 
placed on the older versions of Pullmans.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Art
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11429
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 8/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Chain guards on a Pullman
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: <luvprr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Chain guards on a Pullman
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Am building a vintage Walthers Pullman kit that provides chain for "chain
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> guards" but no directions on the plans as to their placement (as was so
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> common  with  directions of all kinds of kits or the era). I'm fairly 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> certain
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> they  are attached to the trucks but am not certain exactly where. I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> lots
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of  reference material but can't seem to locate an example. I assume they
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> were  placed on the older versions of Pullmans.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Art
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Old Walthers' catalog pictures show them running from the upper corner of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
each truck on the "inboard" end up to the underside of the car.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11430
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 8/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Chain guards on a Pullman
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  
  

 
Chains were used to keep the trucks reasonably in place in event of
a derailment or other case where the trucks could turn out of
alignment.  Those chains were attached to the top corner of the truck
frame and to the frame of the car with sagging slack to allow for
normal turning of the truck in responding to curved track.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
===============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
luvprr@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Am building a vintage Walthers Pullman kit that provides chain
for "chain guards" but no directions on the plans as to their placement
(as was so common with  directions of all kinds of kits or the era).
I'm fairly certain they are attached to the trucks but am not certain
exactly where. I have lots of reference material but can't seem to
locate an example. I assume they were placed on the older versions of
Pullmans.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Art
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11431
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 8/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Chain guards on a Pullman [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks, Don. About where I figured, but I needed the right length and 
droop. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Art
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In a message dated 8/15/2009 1:26:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
don.dellmann@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/attachments/folder/859944833/item/list 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11432
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 8/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Casey Jones _Varney or Rivarossi???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      One of my Varney Casey Jones, is running with MDC 4-6-0 drivers on the first and third axle. Center axle is still Varney, as it needed Varney's gear. Just a thought.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Fri, 8/14/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Casey Jones _Varney or Rivarossi???
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 5:13 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      If its an original Varney, there are usually basket cases for sale on ebay in the Varney listings, both the consolidation and ten wheeler (Casey Jones) should be the same drivers, if not, Bowser might work, but then you may need to change all the drivers as Bowser made changes to the frame over the years since aquiring Varney, and since Bowser is getting out of the steam locomotive business, chances are they don't have the parts either, its a strong possiblity that Yardbird Classic Trains would have them, http://yardbirdtrai ns.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: mohoghead77 <mohoghead77@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:35:47 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Casey Jones _Varney or Rivarossi???

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Doing a repair on a Casey Jones loco for a fellow RR club member.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Any one got rear drive wheels for sale? My reference indicates Varney as original maker. Any thoughts on specific year? Also will Rivarossi drivers work as substitute if originals can not be found? Seems that the rear wheel drivers are broken where screws or post go into the wheel on both left and right wheel. Thanks... Any one in the Warrenton, MO area should stop by number 13 at the outlet mall after a visit to the Trainhaus to ask a club member to show them the modular layout.... Club is just beginning to build an N gauge module as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Some nice vintage stuff as well as new. Club will hold an open house weekend of Sept. 11 when Traveling Vietnam Memorial is at the mall and Thursdays all day is usually a work day on the module.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for previous suggestions. I hope to post some pics of some of my vintage Varney and Penn Line Wabash stuff soon. Do have some items
 for sale but will talk to you off this group for that.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards and Follow the Flag!!!


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11433
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Casey Jones _Varney or Rivarossi???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      as long as the driver diameters are the same and 
the crank radii are the same, should be OK.  otherwise, the gear can be 
moved from the Varney to the MDC driver with the help of NWSL Puller and 
Quarterer. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 3:18 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Casey Jones 
  _Varney or Rivarossi???
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      One of my Varney Casey Jones, is running with MDC 4-6-0 
        drivers on the first and third axle. Center axle is still Varney, as it 
        needed Varney's gear. Just a thought.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- 
        On Fri, 8/14/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> 
        wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
          Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: 
          Re: [vintageHO] Casey Jones _Varney or Rivarossi???
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 
          Friday, August 14, 2009, 5:13 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      If its an original Varney, there are usually basket cases 
          for sale on ebay in the Varney listings, both the consolidation and 
          ten wheeler (Casey Jones) should be the same drivers, if not, Bowser 
          might work, but then you may need to change all the drivers as 
          Bowser made changes to the frame over the years since aquiring 
          Varney, and since Bowser is getting out of the steam locomotive 
          business, chances are they don't have the parts either, its a strong 
          possiblity that Yardbird Classic Trains would have them, http://yardbirdtrai ns.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ 
          pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important 
          questions! 
          

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          From: mohoghead77 
          <mohoghead77@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou 
          ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 
          Thursday, August 13, 2009 11:35:47 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Casey Jones 
          _Varney or Rivarossi???

                                                                                                                                                                                        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      Doing a repair on a Casey Jones loco for a fellow RR club 
          member.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Any one got rear drive wheels for sale? My reference 
          indicates Varney as original maker. Any thoughts on specific year? 
          Also will Rivarossi drivers work as substitute if originals can not be 
          found? Seems that the rear wheel drivers are broken where screws or 
          post go into the wheel on both left and right wheel. Thanks... Any one 
          in the Warrenton, MO area should stop by number 13 at the outlet mall 
          after a visit to the Trainhaus to ask a club member to show them the 
          modular layout.... Club is just beginning to build an N gauge module 
          as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Some nice vintage stuff as well as new. Club will hold an 
          open house weekend of Sept. 11 when Traveling Vietnam Memorial is at 
          the mall and Thursdays all day is usually a work day on the 
          module.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for previous suggestions. I hope to post some 
          pics of some of my vintage Varney and Penn Line Wabash stuff soon. Do 
          have some items for sale but will talk to you off this group for 
          that.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Regards and Follow the 
          Flag!!!


                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.58/2304 - Release 
  Date: 08/15/09 06:10:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11434
						From: George Frey
						Date: 8/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: are they any good
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Group I am new here and I hope you will forgive my naivety, I have recently seen a lot of talk regarding Marx railroad cars, and see a lot offered on E-BAY, so my question is this was Marx considered high or low end in there day or were they like Tyco and Bachman are today, mostly crap. ( considerded toys) I am not trying to and I hope I dont offend any one here, its just that I dont see these cars comanding high prices on E-bay or other auction sites, I have an opertunity to aquire some Marx cars( from a friend)who is switching over to "O" scale, and I would like to know if I should pass on them or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
thanks in advance for any help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11435
						From: erieberk
						Date: 8/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: are they any good
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi George,  Welcome to the Group, always something to learn here.  While Marx was best known for their 0-27 "tinplate" trains, I presume you're asking about their H0 trains.  While I know that their 0--27 stuff is highly collectable, I'm not that sure about their old H0 offerings although I suspect it does have a following.  While they may be somewhat collectable, it's not for the same reason that quality old H0 gauge Scale products are collected.  Marx is not considered Scale as it was never designed to closely replicate the prototype trains, nor does it have very much detail.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
They were primarily produced for the toy train market, and not for the modeler.  Still, they were engineered to be dependable runners, so while not top of the line products I wouldn't equate them with Bachman, etc., or consider them as crap even though you could say they were lower end.  They have a charm of their own to some collectors, more because they are old rather than because they are Scale.  So, it all depends where your interest lies, and to what purpose you're going to put them to as to whether they're worth acquiring.  Ray 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Group I am new here and I hope you will forgive my naivety, I have recently seen a lot of talk regarding Marx railroad cars, and see a lot offered on E-BAY, so my question is this was Marx considered high or low end in there day or were they like Tyco and Bachman are today, mostly crap. ( considerded toys) I am not trying to and I hope I dont offend any one here, its just that I dont see these cars comanding high prices on E-bay or other auction sites, I have an opertunity to aquire some Marx cars( from a friend)who is switching over to "O" scale, and I would like to know if I should pass on them or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> thanks in advance for any help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11436
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: are they any good
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                         Hi George,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             I will try to 
answer your questions from my personal view as a collector of vintage HO from 
1936-1977.  First the "Marx" freight cars just recently discussed would in 
my opinion would be the lowest of low quality even for Marx HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Back around 1958 
( and I can check exact date as I have a listing of each Marx HO 
railroad item with date excluding those later made foreign mentioned 
above) Marx had a line of HO products that were also sold under the Sears 
Allstate label.  Now just talking about the Marx HO freight only. They are 
/ were considered the low end of HO at that period. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            That being said I 
feel they had some good qualities to them. Most were plastic but the depressed 
flat cars especially the searchlight car were metal frames. The way the trucks 
are attached makes repairing them hard. Talgo mounted couplers. The lettering is 
decent but a lot of cars have detail as part of the mold. There are a number of 
operating cars that aren't to bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I don't collect 
freight cars of any brand unless in a set .I have a number of Marx and Sears 
Allstate sets so I do have about 20 freight cars to judge from. Also I am 
building my new layout which has a retro concept in that I run vintage HO 
engines, passenger car and the freight cars from my sets. I have a train pulling 
12 different types of Marx HO cars with caboose. I have had NO derailments of 
these cars nor any other problems with them over an extended period of time. 
These and some Revell cars will be the main freight cars on my 
layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           My opinion only. Hope it 
helps. For the price the cars are selling (low) I feel a good buy for a vintage 
item.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 10:01 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] are they any 
  good
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Group I am new here and I hope you will forgive my naivety, I have recently 
  seen a lot of talk regarding Marx railroad cars, and see a lot offered on 
  E-BAY, so my question is this was Marx considered high or low end in there day 
  or were they like Tyco and Bachman are today, mostly crap. ( considerded toys) 
  I am not trying to and I hope I dont offend any one here, its just that I dont 
  see these cars comanding high prices on E-bay or other auction sites, I have 
  an opertunity to aquire some Marx cars( from a friend)who is switching over to 
  "O" scale, and I would like to know if I should pass on them or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                      thanks 
  in advance for any help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      George Frey 

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11437
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 8/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: MarX HO: "Are they any good?"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi George F.;
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
(I was working on my response off line, while Ray F.W. and Jim H, were posting their's here.  We're all on similar "tracks" but interesting to read our slightly different approaches.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
That's quite a question. Completely aside from the question "Are they any good?" or perhaps, "Are they collectible as Vintage HO models?" it helps to consider how the MarX HO trains were marketed while they were being made.  They were sold primarily in catalogs and by mass market stores and "discount houses" if you will, primarily as entry level train sets with add-ons.  Some sets were even powered by battery so as to avoid the extra cost of tranformers.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I believe that MarX HO were not reviewed by the two leading scale modeling magazines of the era, MR and RMC (have to check tonight to confirm it, though), but may have perhaps been covered by HO Monthly and Toy Trains, magazines aimed at the entry-level hobbiest. Probably a higher percentage were well played with, well used, and finding examples in excellent condition may be a bit harder than finding a pristine 1950's Penn Line or Mantua, models that during those 1950's were aimed at both scale model hobbists and those looking for train sets with so-called seasonal play value.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
But yes, there are a number of collectors interested in them, and if you scrolled down to the bottom of that recent gondola post, and hit home, you will find an excellent cataloging of many of MarX HO's interesting line, including comparative values. Here is the correct link:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Http://www.marx-trains.com/ho-trains/index.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I looked and learned a few things I did not know.  Personally, other than curosity and a natural interest in seeing and learning about other's collections, I never had much of an interest in them as a collecting area.  But still have a half dozen MarX HO in my Vintage HO collection!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Why?  One of my interests is collecting Vintage HO items factory lettered for Erie or Lackawanna, and the handsome Marx HO Erie girder bridge, a very good HO model at that, decorated in a protopical fashion was soon found.  MarX also had a very nice diecast and finished 40' depressed center flat car, and although I believe Erie had none depressed of that length, it was numbered in Erie's flat car series. I found a nice black example, then added the less than protopical maroon and yellow Erie versions as well, just for the challenge and just for fun.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
They are part of my Erie "fantasy section" of the collection, the diecast metal flat car track well, as does another MarX diecast metal standard Erie flat car.  Lastly, as I included one of the MarX "Porters" found in a train show "junk box" as it is fun to display alongside my original Athearn Hustler, my first HO locomotive decades ago, and have added a couple Lionel Husky's for comparison, too. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Model Power has coninued some of the the MarX models, including the depressed center flat cars and Porter switcher into their line, and while they won't find their way onto any strictly prototype-specific layouts of today, I'm sure they sell well to people who enyoy running them.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It all boils down to what interests you and building a collection or running Vintage HO. You might be interested in the MarX just to have and work with, and later decide you want to go in a different direction.    I bought a cigar box of Lone Star OOO just out of curiosity two years ago, and found their smooth running miniature copy of the Athearn Hi-F drive facinating, but doubt I will get any more and will pass it along to another collector when I'm done with it (not yet!).  But it might have also opened up a new collecting interest, glad I tried it after 40 years of curiosity.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So that oportunity to find out about MarX HO at an attractive price may be worthwhile to you.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11438
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 8/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: are they any good
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Could I get a copy of your listing? With your permission, I'd like to post 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
it on my Marx web site. If you don't want it posted, I'd like to use it for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
my own reference.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 12:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] are they any good
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
   Hi George,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
       I will try to answer your questions from my personal view as a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
collector of vintage HO from 1936-1977.  First the "Marx" freight cars just 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
recently discussed would in my opinion would be the lowest of low quality 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
even for Marx HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      Back around 1958 ( and I can check exact date as I have a listing of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
each Marx HO railroad item with date excluding those later made foreign 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
mentioned above) Marx had a line of HO products that were also sold under 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the Sears Allstate label.  Now just talking about the Marx HO freight only. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
They are / were considered the low end of HO at that period.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      That being said I feel they had some good qualities to them. Most were 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
plastic but the depressed flat cars especially the searchlight car were 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
metal frames. The way the trucks are attached makes repairing them hard. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Talgo mounted couplers. The lettering is decent but a lot of cars have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
detail as part of the mold. There are a number of operating cars that aren't 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      I don't collect freight cars of any brand unless in a set .I have a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
number of Marx and Sears Allstate sets so I do have about 20 freight cars to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
judge from. Also I am building my new layout which has a retro concept in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
that I run vintage HO engines, passenger car and the freight cars from my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sets. I have a train pulling 12 different types of Marx HO cars with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
caboose. I have had NO derailments of these cars nor any other problems with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
them over an extended period of time. These and some Revell cars will be the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
main freight cars on my layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
     My opinion only. Hope it helps. For the price the cars are selling 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
(low) I feel a good buy for a vintage item.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  From: George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 10:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Subject: [vintageHO] are they any good
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Group I am new here and I hope you will forgive my naivety, I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
recently seen a lot of talk regarding Marx railroad cars, and see a lot 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
offered on E-BAY, so my question is this was Marx considered high or low end 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
in there day or were they like Tyco and Bachman are today, mostly crap. ( 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
considerded toys) I am not trying to and I hope I dont offend any one here, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
its just that I dont see these cars comanding high prices on E-bay or other 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
auction sites, I have an opertunity to aquire some Marx cars( from a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
friend)who is switching over to "O" scale, and I would like to know if I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
should pass on them or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  thanks in advance for any help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  George Frey 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11439
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 8/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: MarX HO: "Are they any good?"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I got interested in Marx because it was the first train set I got. Had to be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the late '50's or early "60's. As I evolved into Atlas, Proto 2000, Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
& Roundhouse, I kept looking at the dear old Marx GP7 that I had kept all 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
these years. The motor was long burned out ... when I learned that HO was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
half O, I tried running my Marx engine on my dad's Lionel (gasp) layout. At 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
that time in my life, I didn't know there was a difference between AC & DC. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I let the magic smoke out. Oh well. Years later, I decided to recreate my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
first HO set that my parents had spent their hard earned money on. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
completed that collection just months before my dad died. So to honor his 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
memory, I"ll keep collecting Marx. And I have to be honest, until a few 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
years ago, I had no idea that Marx even made O scale trains!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for a plug on the web site, it is a work in progress that has barely 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
scratched the surface.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 1:25 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: MarX HO: "Are they any good?"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi George F.;
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (I was working on my response off line, while Ray F.W. and Jim H, were 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> posting their's here.  We're all on similar "tracks" but interesting to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> read our slightly different approaches.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> That's quite a question. Completely aside from the question "Are they any 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> good?" or perhaps, "Are they collectible as Vintage HO models?" it helps 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to consider how the MarX HO trains were marketed while they were being 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> made.  They were sold primarily in catalogs and by mass market stores and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> "discount houses" if you will, primarily as entry level train sets with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> add-ons.  Some sets were even powered by battery so as to avoid the extra 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> cost of tranformers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I believe that MarX HO were not reviewed by the two leading scale modeling 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> magazines of the era, MR and RMC (have to check tonight to confirm it, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> though), but may have perhaps been covered by HO Monthly and Toy Trains, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> magazines aimed at the entry-level hobbiest. Probably a higher percentage 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> were well played with, well used, and finding examples in excellent 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> condition may be a bit harder than finding a pristine 1950's Penn Line or 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mantua, models that during those 1950's were aimed at both scale model 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> hobbists and those looking for train sets with so-called seasonal play 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> value.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> But yes, there are a number of collectors interested in them, and if you 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> scrolled down to the bottom of that recent gondola post, and hit home, you 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> will find an excellent cataloging of many of MarX HO's interesting line, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> including comparative values. Here is the correct link:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Http://www.marx-trains.com/ho-trains/index.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I looked and learned a few things I did not know.  Personally, other than 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> curosity and a natural interest in seeing and learning about other's 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> collections, I never had much of an interest in them as a collecting area. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> But still have a half dozen MarX HO in my Vintage HO collection!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Why?  One of my interests is collecting Vintage HO items factory lettered 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> for Erie or Lackawanna, and the handsome Marx HO Erie girder bridge, a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> very good HO model at that, decorated in a protopical fashion was soon 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> found.  MarX also had a very nice diecast and finished 40' depressed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> center flat car, and although I believe Erie had none depressed of that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> length, it was numbered in Erie's flat car series. I found a nice black 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> example, then added the less than protopical maroon and yellow Erie 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> versions as well, just for the challenge and just for fun.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> They are part of my Erie "fantasy section" of the collection, the diecast 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> metal flat car track well, as does another MarX diecast metal standard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Erie flat car.  Lastly, as I included one of the MarX "Porters" found in a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> train show "junk box" as it is fun to display alongside my original 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Athearn Hustler, my first HO locomotive decades ago, and have added a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> couple Lionel Husky's for comparison, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Model Power has coninued some of the the MarX models, including the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> depressed center flat cars and Porter switcher into their line, and while 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> they won't find their way onto any strictly prototype-specific layouts of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> today, I'm sure they sell well to people who enyoy running them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It all boils down to what interests you and building a collection or 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> running Vintage HO. You might be interested in the MarX just to have and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> work with, and later decide you want to go in a different direction.    I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> bought a cigar box of Lone Star OOO just out of curiosity two years ago, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and found their smooth running miniature copy of the Athearn Hi-F drive 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> facinating, but doubt I will get any more and will pass it along to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> another collector when I'm done with it (not yet!).  But it might have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> also opened up a new collecting interest, glad I tried it after 40 years 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of curiosity.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> So that oportunity to find out about MarX HO at an attractive price may be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> worthwhile to you.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11440
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: are they any good
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Steven W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           I have no problem if you 
post it but it is a Greenberg's Pocket Price Guide and Inventory Checklist by 
James Flynn  second edition Copyright 1989. While it contains all Marx 
trains there are 4 and 1/2 pages of HO listings   Section 
xiv    HO Trains and accessories that list every Marx HO 
item,  the different roadnames and the different years for those different 
production items. I'm not sure if you could post it on your site but I would be 
glad to copy it for you're own use if you don't have it. A quick look seems 
that it covers Marx HO as early as 1957 up to 1974. ( a lot longer then I would 
have thought ).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          If you can use this, if only for 
you're own use, contact me off site at jimheck@... and I will mail you a 
copy of the HO section.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 3:35 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] are they any 
  good
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Could I get a copy of your listing? With your permission, I'd 
  like to post 
                                                                                                                                                                                      it on my Marx web site. If you don't want it posted, I'd like 
  to use it for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      my own reference.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 
  Monday, August 17, 2009 12:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] are they any 
  good

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi George,

                                                                                                                                                                                      I will try to answer your questions from my 
  personal view as a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      collector of vintage HO from 1936-1977. First the 
  "Marx" freight cars just 
                                                                                                                                                                                      recently discussed would in my opinion would be 
  the lowest of low quality 
                                                                                                                                                                                      even for Marx HO.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Back around 1958 ( and 
  I can check exact date as I have a listing of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      each Marx HO railroad item 
  with date excluding those later made foreign 
                                                                                                                                                                                      mentioned above) Marx had a 
  line of HO products that were also sold under 
                                                                                                                                                                                      the Sears Allstate label. 
  Now just talking about the Marx HO freight only. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      They are / were 
  considered the low end of HO at that period.

                                                                                                                                                                                      That being said I feel 
  they had some good qualities to them. Most were 
                                                                                                                                                                                      plastic but the depressed 
  flat cars especially the searchlight car were 
                                                                                                                                                                                      metal frames. The way the 
  trucks are attached makes repairing them hard. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Talgo mounted couplers. The 
  lettering is decent but a lot of cars have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      detail as part of the mold. 
  There are a number of operating cars that aren't 
                                                                                                                                                                                      to bad.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I don't 
  collect freight cars of any brand unless in a set .I have a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      number of Marx 
  and Sears Allstate sets so I do have about 20 freight cars to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      judge from. 
  Also I am building my new layout which has a retro concept in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      that I run 
  vintage HO engines, passenger car and the freight cars from my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      sets. I 
  have a train pulling 12 different types of Marx HO cars with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      caboose. I 
  have had NO derailments of these cars nor any other problems with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      them 
  over an extended period of time. These and some Revell cars will be the 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      main freight cars on my layout.

                                                                                                                                                                                      My opinion only. Hope it helps. For 
  the price the cars are selling 
                                                                                                                                                                                      (low) I feel a good buy for a vintage 
  item.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: George 
  Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 
  Sunday, August 16, 2009 10:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] are they any 
  good

                                                                                                                                                                                      Group I am new here and I hope you will forgive my naivety, I have 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      recently seen a lot of talk regarding Marx railroad cars, and see a lot 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      offered on E-BAY, so my question is this was Marx considered high or low 
  end 
                                                                                                                                                                                      in there day or were they like Tyco and Bachman are today, mostly 
  crap. ( 
                                                                                                                                                                                      considerded toys) I am not trying to and I hope I dont offend any 
  one here, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      its just that I dont see these cars comanding high prices on 
  E-bay or other 
                                                                                                                                                                                      auction sites, I have an opertunity to aquire some Marx 
  cars( from a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      friend)who is switching over to "O" scale, and I would like 
  to know if I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      should pass on them or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                      thanks in advance for any 
  help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      George Frey

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11441
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Marx Erie items
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hey W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Since you mentioned 
HO items by Marx for the Erie railroad especially the girder bridge I wanted to 
let you know that one of the items on my retro layout is that same girder bridge 
. I also have the Erie flat car on a siding with the searchlight car, the 
automated lumber car and have the "automated" New Haven box car that uses a 
metal platform simulating a dock to open the door all HO made by 
Marx.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           While not all Marx I do 
have a number of Revell buildings and freight cars. I just bought 9 AT&T ( 
American Train &Track ) high tension tower kits to add to my power station 
that will use a Revell set or transformer kits out side the building. I am 
using a lot of older stuff with as much as possible from long gone companies. 
There are NO "Bells and Whistles" so to speak. NO electronics at all. The only 
electrical items is an older Model Rectifier transformer with no momentum or the 
like that even has a fuse on the open face. The other electrical item 
is some remote control switches and a few lights in some buildings.  All 
brass track. And as I said all vintage engines and passenger cars all back to 
the early 40's when they started using 12 volt motors. (Won't run my 6-8 volt 
motored items). No this is not a toy railroad. It looks realistic so far and 
scenery will add to that. I will make one concession as I will use resin to 
simulate water in the cove I created for my imaginary lake. There are more 
things I will create / make rather then buy modern commercial new 
stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Just my way of doing 
things different.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11442
						From: frank
						Date: 8/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: RE on Marx cars, are they any good.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Oppinions differ. Mine is I like them. Yes I had them when I was a kid. Now at 63 I appreaciate them. As for calling their colpers Talgo mounted. Look again ! they are not. Compare them to TYCO. Tycos are a true talgo with the coupler mounted to a bar that is part of the truck frame. Marx mounted theirs on a bar, but it pivots on the same center axis as the truck, but is not connected to the truck. Their is a motion limiting frame that keeps the coupler motion down under 5 degrees. Tyco has no limit. Marks cars push well in reverse. Tycos do not. As with almost all others here I like the way they don't come off the track. Real freight car trucks mount on a pin just like Marks trucks do, So in a way they are more prototypical them all others. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 If you are looking for personal gain from aquiring and selling Marks HO freight cars. This proably won't happen. And when you go to your club and try to run them, some knowitall with a little power will say the flanges are to big and not prototypical (RP25 style) and you are not allowed to run them. You see they will say that your wheels will not negociate the small scale track size. Now you will watch there perfect cars opperate and cause problums, derailments,and crashes. This is OK because those in authority say it is so. What happens now is when that track guard leaves and none of those who knowitall are not around, you put on you train and find that it runs alright. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  frank toptrain
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11443
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: RE on Marx cars, are they any good.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 Yes you are right that the Marx HO freight car couplers are not true 
Talgo. I should have chosen different words.  Talgo like or semi Talgo 
might be better since they are not mounted to the body. Poor English. But as you 
say they run well and back up great. Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Would anyone 
happen to know if their is a word for this type coupler set up  
?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  frank 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 8:35 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] RE on Marx cars, are 
  they any good.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Oppinions differ. Mine is I like them. Yes I had them when I was a kid. Now 
  at 63 I appreaciate them. As for calling their colpers Talgo mounted. Look 
  again ! they are not. Compare them to TYCO. Tycos are a true talgo with the 
  coupler mounted to a bar that is part of the truck frame. Marx mounted theirs 
  on a bar, but it pivots on the same center axis as the truck, but is not 
  connected to the truck. Their is a motion limiting frame that keeps the 
  coupler motion down under 5 degrees. Tyco has no limit. Marks cars push well 
  in reverse. Tycos do not. As with almost all others here I like the way they 
  don't come off the track. Real freight car trucks mount on a pin just like 
  Marks trucks do, So in a way they are more prototypical them all others. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      If you are looking for personal gain from aquiring and selling Marks HO 
  freight cars. This proably won't happen. And when you go to your club and try 
  to run them, some knowitall with a little power will say the flanges are to 
  big and not prototypical (RP25 style) and you are not allowed to run them. You 
  see they will say that your wheels will not negociate the small scale track 
  size. Now you will watch there perfect cars opperate and cause problums, 
  derailments, and crashes. This is OK because those in authority say it is 
  so. What happens now is when that track guard leaves and none of those who 
  knowitall are not around, you put on you train and find that it runs alright. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      frank toptrain

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11444
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 8/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Marx Erie items
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H., 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Glad you incorporated one of those MarX Erie bridges! That vintage-era layout sounds like a great idea and I remember the photos of it under construction you posted here a while back.  Those Revell kits were/are amazing for the detail and it was only years later that I learned that noted craftsman Al Armitage was responsible for much of their design.  I still have some of my original trackside buildings set, though the water tank is the only one still incorporated on my old layout right now.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I also like some of the early card building kits by Ideal, and also Ayers, Argy and Suydam.  Almost every layout pictured in the 1940's and early 1950's magazines had an Ideal "Eat Quick" Diner (or one from the RMC "cut-out" series) and maybe one of the Ideal three story brick hotels, another of my favorites. And of course, an Ayers/Suydam diesel engine house!  Western prototype modelers would "need" an Ayers Mission style cafe and station.  It seems every layout had the Purina Chows feed mill, too. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
To me, many of the old card structure kits were fairly accurate representations of "modern" buildings of that era, and not gussied up, nor "run-down" caricatures of the prototypes, as many of today's popular kits try to portray.  The average 1940's and early 1950's diner was as likely a basic place near the tracks where the working man could get a decent (hopefully!), inexpensive meal and plenty of hot coffee, not a romanticized "Happy Days" teen hangout with car hop service, although those did exist as well, but more likely found in the later 1950's and early 1960's time period.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Keep us updated with your progress on the layout!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hey W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Since you mentioned HO items by Marx for the Erie railroad especially the girder bridge I wanted to let you know that one of the items on my retro layout is that same girder bridge . I also have the Erie flat car on a siding with the searchlight car, the automated lumber car and have the "automated" New Haven box car that uses a metal platform simulating a dock to open the door all HO made by Marx.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      While not all Marx I do have a number of Revell buildings and freight cars. I just bought 9 AT&T ( American Train &Track ) high tension tower kits to add to my power station that will use a Revell set or transformer kits out side the building. I am using a lot of older stuff with as much as possible from long gone companies. There are NO "Bells and Whistles" so to speak. NO electronics at all. The only electrical items is an older Model Rectifier transformer with no momentum or the like that even has a fuse on the open face. The other electrical item is some remote control switches and a few lights in some buildings.  All brass track. And as I said all vintage engines and passenger cars all back to the early 40's when they started using 12 volt motors. (Won't run my 6-8 volt motored items). No this is not a toy railroad. It looks realistic so far and scenery will add to that. I will make one concession as I will use resin to simulate water in the cove I created for my imaginary lake. There are more things I will create / make rather then buy modern commercial new stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      Just my way of doing things different.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                                   Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11445
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: .Marx HO, Retro Layout
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             I am showing 
you these pictures but all are welcome to comment. Remember the layout is far 
from complete and don't know if it ever will be. Like they say a work in 
progress.These pictures are mostly at a far end of the layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          The first picture shows the Marx 
HO Erie girder bridge with a string of Marx HO going over it. In the picture you 
will see the old Atlas pylons / abutments ? that are the supports under the 
bridge.The area around will have hand carved hydrocal rock cuts that will be 
stained / washed. You will also see one of the AT&T (American Train & 
Track ) high tension poles. It has been painted silver and needs the insulators 
painted white. Maybe some day I will string heavy black thread through them but 
can't now so I can work on other things.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           The second picture is some 
Marx cars sitting on an unfinished siding. The ERIE flat car. the automated log 
car, a Westinghouse searchlight car and a hopper car.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Last while not Marx this Atlas 
switch tower I just assembled and painted ( I like the brick work ) is ready to 
be weathered. Around it you will see hand throws for the switches in a large 
siding area. You will also see non electric signal lights.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Just a few of the vintage 
items on the layout. I probably will have none of those cardboard buildings 
of years ago. Many of the buildings I need will be specially made by me 
from balsa and cardboard when time permits.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11446
						From: Brent Buckley
						Date: 8/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Kadee to a Mantua Plymouth Yard Diesel ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      How did you do it ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Fit Kadee to the above loco ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brent
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11447
						From: grassball2003
						Date: 8/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Walthers Silver Springs Bus Station Picture Needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi, I'm interested in adding the Walthers Silver Springs Bus Terminal to my layout. But I'd like to know what the BACK of the building looks like before I buy one. Anyone have one on their layout or a picture of the back? Thanks! George
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11448
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 8/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Pullman car numbers
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Finishing up my vintage,  Walthers standard Pullman car and need to 
know if there were normally any car numbers anywhere on the body or markings on 
the ends of the car. This  would be a Pullman not owned yet by any 
railroad.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11449
						From: Nelson
						Date: 8/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Kadee to a Mantua Plymouth Yard Diesel ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Kadee has instructions in their Tyco list.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.kadee.com/conv/hocc103.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Brent Buckley" <buckley37@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> How did you do it ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Fit Kadee to the above loco ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brent
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11450
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 8/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Got something, "on approval," in the mail today.  "Varney Pacific," 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
said to be in good shape, just old.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Ha.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Well, it's missing pilot and trailing trucks.  Bumped on lower front 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
end, so pilot is broken and frame end bent up.  Read: front of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
cylinders now canted upwards.  Lots of old goopy paint, probably 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
brush painted, (which is no big deal).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Here's the catch:  I'm not sure which Varney Pacific this is.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
looked up what HO Seeker has on his web site.  Mine has cast white 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
metal frame, yet it is sprung on first and third driver set.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
thought only the fabricated-frame, "Super Pacific," had suspension?????
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Seeker's standard Pacific shows an ordinary open-frame motor.  This 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
locomotive here has what appears to be open frame, but heavy, rounded 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
rear section.  (Being, "on approval," I am hesitant to disassemble 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
this unit;  besides, I know when I remove the screw that goes through 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the cylinder into the smoke box bottom it is bent and will break)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Super Pacific apparently has a more elaborate valve gear 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
hanger....actually supported across the top of the frame in two 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
places.  Mine has one stamped cross-the-frame top support, which is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
shown as the, "economy Pacific," valve gear in Varney's 1,001 parts book.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Tender here is the Varney Vandy No. 1932.  Needs steps, but all else 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
restorable.  That's acceptable.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I'll have about $50 in this thing if I keep it.  Since joining this 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
List, I have happily re-acquired the Varney items I either had as a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
kid or dreamed about, (Casey Jones, Little Joe, etc.)  One single 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
earlier Varney, like this Pacific, is about the end of my present 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
dream, (and $$$) until next winter.  I've had such a devil of a time 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
finding an older V Pacific like this I hate to return it, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
but...........    -  just how bad a time will I have finding a pilot 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and trailing truck, not to mention a replacement frame and pilot for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
this???????????????
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
For i.d., I guess I would have to guess this is the Economy Pacific, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
but has two sprung axles.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Frustrated........ thoughts appreciated,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11451
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 8/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Update:  I think I have the, "V-1," motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 04:15 PM 8/19/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >Got something, "on approval," in the mail today.  "Varney Pacific,"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>said to be in good shape, just old.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Ha.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Well, it's missing pilot and trailing trucks.  Bumped on lower front
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>end, so pilot is broken and frame end bent up.  Read: front of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>cylinders now canted upwards.  Lots of old goopy paint, probably
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>brush painted, (which is no big deal).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Here's the catch:  I'm not sure which Varney Pacific this is.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>looked up what HO Seeker has on his web site.  Mine has cast white
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>metal frame, yet it is sprung on first and third driver set.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>thought only the fabricated-frame, "Super Pacific," had suspension?????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Seeker's standard Pacific shows an ordinary open-frame motor.  This
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>locomotive here has what appears to be open frame, but heavy, rounded
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>rear section.  (Being, "on approval," I am hesitant to disassemble
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>this unit;  besides, I know when I remove the screw that goes through
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>the cylinder into the smoke box bottom it is bent and will break)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>The Super Pacific apparently has a more elaborate valve gear
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>hanger....actually supported across the top of the frame in two
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>places.  Mine has one stamped cross-the-frame top support, which is
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>shown as the, "economy Pacific," valve gear in Varney's 1,001 parts book.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Tender here is the Varney Vandy No. 1932.  Needs steps, but all else
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>restorable.  That's acceptable.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I'll have about $50 in this thing if I keep it.  Since joining this
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>List, I have happily re-acquired the Varney items I either had as a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>kid or dreamed about, (Casey Jones, Little Joe, etc.)  One single
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>earlier Varney, like this Pacific, is about the end of my present
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>dream, (and $$$) until next winter.  I've had such a devil of a time
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>finding an older V Pacific like this I hate to return it,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>but...........    -  just how bad a time will I have finding a pilot
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>and trailing truck, not to mention a replacement frame and pilot for
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>this???????????????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>For i.d., I guess I would have to guess this is the Economy Pacific,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>but has two sprung axles.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Frustrated........ thoughts appreciated,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11452
						From: sean naylor
						Date: 8/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Prewar pacific. Said sean while sitting at the beach.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
----------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent from the Cingular network using Mobile Email
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
------Original Message------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Dennis Thompson <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Date: Wed, Aug 19, 2009 04:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Got something, "on approval," in the mail today.  "Varney Pacific," 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
said to be in good shape, just old.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Ha.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Well, it's missing pilot and trailing trucks.  Bumped on lower front 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
end, so pilot is broken and frame end bent up.  Read: front of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
cylinders now canted upwards.  Lots of old goopy paint, probably 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
brush painted, (which is no big deal).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Here's the catch:  I'm not sure which Varney Pacific this is.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
looked up what HO Seeker has on his web site.  Mine has cast white 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
metal frame, yet it is sprung on first and third driver set.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
thought only the fabricated-frame, "Super Pacific," had suspension?????
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Seeker's standard Pacific shows an ordinary open-frame motor.  This 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
locomotive here has what appears to be open frame, but heavy, rounded 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
rear section.  (Being, "on approval," I am hesitant to disassemble 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
this unit;  besides, I know when I remove the screw that goes through 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the cylinder into the smoke box bottom it is bent and will break)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Super Pacific apparently has a more elaborate valve gear 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
hanger....actually supported across the top of the frame in two 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
places.  Mine has one stamped cross-the-frame top support, which is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
shown as the, "economy Pacific," valve gear in Varney's 1,001 parts book.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Tender here is the Varney Vandy No. 1932.  Needs steps, but all else 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
restorable.  That's acceptable.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I'll have about $50 in this thing if I keep it.  Since joining this 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
List, I have happily re-acquired the Varney items I either had as a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
kid or dreamed about, (Casey Jones, Little Joe, etc.)  One single 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
earlier Varney, like this Pacific, is about the end of my present 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
dream, (and $$$) until next winter.  I've had such a devil of a time 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
finding an older V Pacific like this I hate to return it, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
but...........    -  just how bad a time will I have finding a pilot 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and trailing truck, not to mention a replacement frame and pilot for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
this???????????????
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
For i.d., I guess I would have to guess this is the Economy Pacific, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
but has two sprung axles.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Frustrated........ thoughts appreciated,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11453
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 8/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Just found Jim's, "kit instructions," on Seeker's site.  Darned hard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to keep ahead of Jim.  That is a gold mine for me on this one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Comments/value especially, still invited.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 04:15 PM 8/19/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >Got something, "on approval," in the mail today.  "Varney Pacific,"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>said to be in good shape, just old.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Ha.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Well, it's missing pilot and trailing trucks.  Bumped on lower front
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>end, so pilot is broken and frame end bent up.  Read: front of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>cylinders now canted upwards.  Lots of old goopy paint, probably
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>brush painted, (which is no big deal).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Here's the catch:  I'm not sure which Varney Pacific this is.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>looked up what HO Seeker has on his web site.  Mine has cast white
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>metal frame, yet it is sprung on first and third driver set.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>thought only the fabricated-frame, "Super Pacific," had suspension?????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Seeker's standard Pacific shows an ordinary open-frame motor.  This
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>locomotive here has what appears to be open frame, but heavy, rounded
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>rear section.  (Being, "on approval," I am hesitant to disassemble
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>this unit;  besides, I know when I remove the screw that goes through
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>the cylinder into the smoke box bottom it is bent and will break)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>The Super Pacific apparently has a more elaborate valve gear
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>hanger....actually supported across the top of the frame in two
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>places.  Mine has one stamped cross-the-frame top support, which is
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>shown as the, "economy Pacific," valve gear in Varney's 1,001 parts book.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Tender here is the Varney Vandy No. 1932.  Needs steps, but all else
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>restorable.  That's acceptable.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I'll have about $50 in this thing if I keep it.  Since joining this
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>List, I have happily re-acquired the Varney items I either had as a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>kid or dreamed about, (Casey Jones, Little Joe, etc.)  One single
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>earlier Varney, like this Pacific, is about the end of my present
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>dream, (and $$$) until next winter.  I've had such a devil of a time
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>finding an older V Pacific like this I hate to return it,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>but...........    -  just how bad a time will I have finding a pilot
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>and trailing truck, not to mention a replacement frame and pilot for
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>this???????????????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>For i.d., I guess I would have to guess this is the Economy Pacific,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>but has two sprung axles.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Frustrated........ thoughts appreciated,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Dennis 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11454
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      tell the seller it looks more like a "parts engine" and bargain from there. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Dennis Thompson" <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Got something, "on approval," in the mail today.  "Varney Pacific,"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> said to be in good shape, just old.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Ha.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Well, it's missing pilot and trailing trucks.  Bumped on lower front
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> end, so pilot is broken and frame end bent up.  Read: front of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> cylinders now canted upwards.  Lots of old goopy paint, probably
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> brush painted, (which is no big deal).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Here's the catch:  I'm not sure which Varney Pacific this is.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> looked up what HO Seeker has on his web site.  Mine has cast white
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> metal frame, yet it is sprung on first and third driver set.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> thought only the fabricated-frame, "Super Pacific," had suspension?????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Seeker's standard Pacific shows an ordinary open-frame motor.  This
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> locomotive here has what appears to be open frame, but heavy, rounded
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> rear section.  (Being, "on approval," I am hesitant to disassemble
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> this unit;  besides, I know when I remove the screw that goes through
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the cylinder into the smoke box bottom it is bent and will break)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The Super Pacific apparently has a more elaborate valve gear
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> hanger....actually supported across the top of the frame in two
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> places.  Mine has one stamped cross-the-frame top support, which is
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> shown as the, "economy Pacific," valve gear in Varney's 1,001 parts book.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Tender here is the Varney Vandy No. 1932.  Needs steps, but all else
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> restorable.  That's acceptable.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I'll have about $50 in this thing if I keep it.  Since joining this
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> List, I have happily re-acquired the Varney items I either had as a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> kid or dreamed about, (Casey Jones, Little Joe, etc.)  One single
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> earlier Varney, like this Pacific, is about the end of my present
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> dream, (and $$$) until next winter.  I've had such a devil of a time
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> finding an older V Pacific like this I hate to return it,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> but...........    -  just how bad a time will I have finding a pilot
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and trailing truck, not to mention a replacement frame and pilot for
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> this???????????????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> For i.d., I guess I would have to guess this is the Economy Pacific,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> but has two sprung axles.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Frustrated........ thoughts appreciated,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11455
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm glad 
that you found what you are looking for to ID that Varney Pacific. First I want 
to tell Sean to stop rubbibg it in that he is at the beach. With that said I 
would like to add a few thoughts.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              I 
thought it was the pre war but was to busy to answer then. I do want to tell you 
the possibility exist that the bent up nose and cylinders tilted could be just a 
badly wrapping frame and even no cracking present . I had one that was that 
actually caused the boiler to move upward. It mighty not have been dropped. It 
really doesn't matter as it will be costly to fix even if you can find the 
parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              A plus 
could be the V-1 motor IF it runs. They are hard to come by.  Remember 
they are 6 volt ( and could run up to 8 volts ).Watch you don't burn it out 
using higher voltages.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              The last 
thing I would like to add is the movable drivers on the Pacific front and rear 
drivers is made possible by folded copper springs that sit into spaces in the 
frame. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              Does 
this engine have the brass / bronze boiler which would be original but later 
cast metal boilers could be switched onto it easily ? Since it is most likely 
pre war it has value alongwith the motor but trying to find parts especially the 
"right" frame to accept the V-1 motor might it costly and not worth 
fixing.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              My 
thoughts and my thoughts only.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 7:30 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] sad old Varney 
  Pacific: need i.d./comments
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Update: I think I have the, "V-1," motor.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                      At 04:15 PM 
  8/19/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Got something, "on approval," in the mail today. 
  "Varney Pacific,"
                                                                                                                                                                                      >said to be in good shape, just 
  old.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Ha.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Well, it's missing pilot and trailing 
  trucks. Bumped on lower front
                                                                                                                                                                                      >end, so pilot is broken and frame end 
  bent up. Read: front of
                                                                                                                                                                                      >cylinders now canted upwards. Lots of old goopy 
  paint, probably
                                                                                                                                                                                      >brush painted, (which is no big 
  deal).
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Here's the catch: I'm not sure which Varney Pacific this 
  is. I
                                                                                                                                                                                      >looked up what HO Seeker has on his web site. Mine has cast 
  white
                                                                                                                                                                                      >metal frame, yet it is sprung on first and third driver set. 
  I
                                                                                                                                                                                      >thought only the fabricated-frame, "Super Pacific," had 
  suspension?? ???
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Seeker's standard Pacific shows an 
  ordinary open-frame motor. This
                                                                                                                                                                                      >locomotive here has what appears to be 
  open frame, but heavy, rounded
                                                                                                                                                                                      >rear section. (Being, "on approval," I 
  am hesitant to disassemble
                                                                                                                                                                                      >this unit; besides, I know when I remove the 
  screw that goes through
                                                                                                                                                                                      >the cylinder into the smoke box bottom it is 
  bent and will break)
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >The Super Pacific apparently has a more 
  elaborate valve gear
                                                                                                                                                                                      >hanger....actually supported across the top of the 
  frame in two
                                                                                                                                                                                      >places. Mine has one stamped cross-the-frame top support, 
  which is
                                                                                                                                                                                      >shown as the, "economy Pacific," valve gear in Varney's 1,001 
  parts book.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Tender here is the Varney Vandy No. 1932. Needs 
  steps, but all else
                                                                                                                                                                                      >restorable. That's acceptable.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >I'll 
  have about $50 in this thing if I keep it. Since joining this
                                                                                                                                                                                      >List, I 
  have happily re-acquired the Varney items I either had as a
                                                                                                                                                                                      >kid or 
  dreamed about, (Casey Jones, Little Joe, etc.) One single
                                                                                                                                                                                      >earlier 
  Varney, like this Pacific, is about the end of my present
                                                                                                                                                                                      >dream, (and 
  $$$) until next winter. I've had such a devil of a time
                                                                                                                                                                                      >finding an 
  older V Pacific like this I hate to return it,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >but........ ... - 
  just how bad a time will I have finding a pilot
                                                                                                                                                                                      >and trailing truck, not 
  to mention a replacement frame and pilot 
  for
                                                                                                                                                                                      >this??????? ????????
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >For i.d., I guess I would 
  have to guess this is the Economy Pacific,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >but has two sprung 
  axles.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Frustrated. ....... thoughts 
  appreciated,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11456
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                               
Sorry the message below was sent with no spell check. Hope it readable and can 
be understood.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:55 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] sad old Varney 
  Pacific: need i.d./comments
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm 
  glad that you found what you are looking for to ID that Varney Pacific. First 
  I want to tell Sean to stop rubbibg it in that he is at the beach. With that 
  said I would like to add a few thoughts.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              I 
  thought it was the pre war but was to busy to answer then. I do want to tell 
  you the possibility exist that the bent up nose and cylinders tilted could be 
  just a badly wrapping frame and even no cracking present . I had one that was 
  that actually caused the boiler to move upward. It mighty not have been 
  dropped. It really doesn't matter as it will be costly to fix even if you can 
  find the parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              A plus 
  could be the V-1 motor IF it runs. They are hard to come by.  
  Remember they are 6 volt ( and could run up to 8 volts ).Watch you don't burn 
  it out using higher voltages.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              The 
  last thing I would like to add is the movable drivers on the Pacific front and 
  rear drivers is made possible by folded copper springs that sit into spaces in 
  the frame. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              Does 
  this engine have the brass / bronze boiler which would be original but later 
  cast metal boilers could be switched onto it easily ? Since it is most likely 
  pre war it has value alongwith the motor but trying to find parts especially 
  the "right" frame to accept the V-1 motor might it costly and not worth 
  fixing.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              My 
  thoughts and my thoughts only.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 7:30 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] sad old Varney 
    Pacific: need i.d./comments
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Update: I think I have the, "V-1," motor.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                      At 04:15 
    PM 8/19/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Got something, "on approval," in the mail 
    today. "Varney Pacific,"
                                                                                                                                                                                      >said to be in good shape, just 
    old.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Ha.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Well, it's missing pilot and trailing 
    trucks. Bumped on lower front
                                                                                                                                                                                      >end, so pilot is broken and frame end 
    bent up. Read: front of
                                                                                                                                                                                      >cylinders now canted upwards. Lots of old 
    goopy paint, probably
                                                                                                                                                                                      >brush painted, (which is no big 
    deal).
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Here's the catch: I'm not sure which Varney Pacific 
    this is. I
                                                                                                                                                                                      >looked up what HO Seeker has on his web site. Mine has 
    cast white
                                                                                                                                                                                      >metal frame, yet it is sprung on first and third driver 
    set. I
                                                                                                                                                                                      >thought only the fabricated-frame, "Super Pacific," had 
    suspension?? ???
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Seeker's standard Pacific shows an 
    ordinary open-frame motor. This
                                                                                                                                                                                      >locomotive here has what appears to 
    be open frame, but heavy, rounded
                                                                                                                                                                                      >rear section. (Being, "on 
    approval," I am hesitant to disassemble
                                                                                                                                                                                      >this unit; besides, I know 
    when I remove the screw that goes through
                                                                                                                                                                                      >the cylinder into the smoke 
    box bottom it is bent and will break)
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >The Super Pacific 
    apparently has a more elaborate valve gear
                                                                                                                                                                                      >hanger....actually 
    supported across the top of the frame in two
                                                                                                                                                                                      >places. Mine has one 
    stamped cross-the-frame top support, which is
                                                                                                                                                                                      >shown as the, "economy 
    Pacific," valve gear in Varney's 1,001 parts book.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Tender 
    here is the Varney Vandy No. 1932. Needs steps, but all 
    else
                                                                                                                                                                                      >restorable. That's acceptable.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >I'll have about 
    $50 in this thing if I keep it. Since joining this
                                                                                                                                                                                      >List, I have 
    happily re-acquired the Varney items I either had as a
                                                                                                                                                                                      >kid or dreamed 
    about, (Casey Jones, Little Joe, etc.) One single
                                                                                                                                                                                      >earlier Varney, 
    like this Pacific, is about the end of my present
                                                                                                                                                                                      >dream, (and $$$) 
    until next winter. I've had such a devil of a time
                                                                                                                                                                                      >finding an older V 
    Pacific like this I hate to return it,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >but........ ... - just how 
    bad a time will I have finding a pilot
                                                                                                                                                                                      >and trailing truck, not to 
    mention a replacement frame and pilot 
    for
                                                                                                                                                                                      >this??????? ????????
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >For i.d., I guess I would 
    have to guess this is the Economy Pacific,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >but has two sprung 
    axles.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Frustrated. ....... thoughts 
    appreciated,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11457
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 8/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
Thanks, Jim.  Every new, (to me), bit of information helps.

                                                                                                                                                                                      
This is a cast white/Zamak metal boiler/cab casting; not brass/bronze,
(rats).  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You're probably right in that the frame front might just be warped. 
I have seen that before.  I suppose straightening any of these is
just a joke as it would likely immediately break like straightening cast
aluminum, or worse.

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If I could deal with the frame, I could probably fudge/create a pilot and
trailing truck.  Rear truck I suspect is just a Delta frame and
wheels.

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I just hate to send it back as it's the first one I've ever laid my hands
on.

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 05:55 PM 8/19/2009, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        I'm glad that you
found what you are looking for to ID that Varney Pacific. First I want to
tell Sean to stop rubbibg it in that he is at the beach. With that said I
would like to add a few thoughts.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        I thought it was
the pre war but was to busy to answer then. I do want to tell you the
possibility exist that the bent up nose and cylinders tilted could be
just a badly wrapping frame and even no cracking present . I had one that
was that actually caused the boiler to move upward. It mighty not have
been dropped. It really doesn't matter as it will be costly to fix even
if you can find the parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        A plus could be
the V-1 motor IF it runs. They are hard to come by.  Remember they
are 6 volt ( and could run up to 8 volts ).Watch you don't burn it out
using higher voltages.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        The last thing I
would like to add is the movable drivers on the Pacific front and rear
drivers is made possible by folded copper springs that sit into spaces in
the frame. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        Does this engine
have the brass / bronze boiler which would be original but later cast
metal boilers could be switched onto it easily ? Since it is most likely
pre war it has value alongwith the motor but trying to find parts
especially the "right" frame to accept the V-1 motor might it
costly and not worth fixing.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        My thoughts and
my thoughts only.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11458
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Varney prewar Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis T, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          You mentioned every little bit 
of information useful so I will go one better with pictures you can hopefully 
use to ID pre war Pacifics.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          These pictures are of a pre 
war Varney Pacific bought on Jan 6th, 1937 in Virginia by a Navy Admiral. This 
has the original box and plans and is the two rail version. They also made a 3 
rail version. This item has been given the number 090 in Greenberg / Spanagel 
book because there was known number at the time the guide was published. For 
information sake the tender with it is a Varney wood and embossed aluminum pre 
war "square back tender" that was given the number 763 in the Varney book. This 
number has now been officially changed by Dave Spanagel as a similar longer 
square back tender with three axled trucks has surfaced and been verified. 
One tender is now 763A and the other 763B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Getting back to the 
engine which I don't intend to take apart you can see the Varney 6 volt motor, 
the brass / bronze boiler used on the pre war pacific, the cast frame with the 
springs inside that allows the front and back set of drivers to flex, the pilot 
which is brass and slightly different then later post war and economy 
pilots,  the valve gear for this pre war engine and a picture of 
the trailing truck that has some slight differences in the detail ( one at the 
back end between the wheels are detail differences) then later trailing trucks. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I can also send you 
pictures of both the post war 12 volt Super Pacific with V-2  motor and all 
equalized drivers and the last run economy version with an open face motor and 
rigid frame if you would want to compare and be ready if you purchase another 
Varney Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            If you have any 
other questions I will be glad to answer them as best as I can. I hope I made no 
mistakes in typing this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11459
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific [6 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      The loco looks definitely like an SP Pacific--I 
wonder if this was what Varney had in mind for the semi-Vanderbilt tender--the 
SP used the 160Cn tenders on some of the heavy Pacifics.   
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 11:07 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Varney prewar 
  Pacific [6 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis T, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          You mentioned every little bit 
  of information useful so I will go one better with pictures you can hopefully 
  use to ID pre war Pacifics.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          These pictures are of a 
  pre war Varney Pacific bought on Jan 6th, 1937 in Virginia by a Navy Admiral. 
  This has the original box and plans and is the two rail version. They also 
  made a 3 rail version. This item has been given the number 090 in Greenberg / 
  Spanagel book because there was known number at the time the guide was 
  published. For information sake the tender with it is a Varney wood and 
  embossed aluminum pre war "square back tender" that was given the number 763 
  in the Varney book. This number has now been officially changed by Dave 
  Spanagel as a similar longer square back tender with three axled 
  trucks has surfaced and been verified. One tender is now 763A and the 
  other 763B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            Getting back to 
  the engine which I don't intend to take apart you can see the Varney 6 volt 
  motor, the brass / bronze boiler used on the pre war pacific, the cast frame 
  with the springs inside that allows the front and back set of drivers to flex, 
  the pilot which is brass and slightly different then later post war and 
  economy pilots,  the valve gear for this pre war engine and a 
  picture of the trailing truck that has some slight differences in the detail ( 
  one at the back end between the wheels are detail differences) then later 
  trailing trucks. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            I can also send 
  you pictures of both the post war 12 volt Super Pacific with V-2  motor 
  and all equalized drivers and the last run economy version with an open face 
  motor and rigid frame if you would want to compare and be ready if you 
  purchase another Varney Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            If you have any 
  other questions I will be glad to answer them as best as I can. I hope I made 
  no mistakes in typing this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.62/2315 - Release 
  Date: 08/20/09 06:05:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11460
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                            Glenn,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I know very 
little about prototype / real engines. I do know Varney used the same type 
boiler for his pre war Pacific and Mikado.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  Glenn476 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 2:38 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney prewar 
  Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      The loco looks definitely like an SP Pacific--I 
  wonder if this was what Varney had in mind for the semi-Vanderbilt tender--the 
  SP used the 160Cn tenders on some of the heavy Pacifics.   
  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 11:07 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Varney prewar 
    Pacific [6 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis T, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                          You mentioned every little 
    bit of information useful so I will go one better with pictures you can 
    hopefully use to ID pre war Pacifics.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                          These pictures are of a 
    pre war Varney Pacific bought on Jan 6th, 1937 in Virginia by a Navy 
    Admiral. This has the original box and plans and is the two rail version. 
    They also made a 3 rail version. This item has been given the number 090 in 
    Greenberg / Spanagel book because there was known number at the time the 
    guide was published. For information sake the tender with it is a Varney 
    wood and embossed aluminum pre war "square back tender" that was given the 
    number 763 in the Varney book. This number has now been officially changed 
    by Dave Spanagel as a similar longer square back tender with three 
    axled trucks has surfaced and been verified. One tender is now 763A and 
    the other 763B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            Getting back to 
    the engine which I don't intend to take apart you can see the Varney 6 volt 
    motor, the brass / bronze boiler used on the pre war pacific, the cast frame 
    with the springs inside that allows the front and back set of drivers to 
    flex, the pilot which is brass and slightly different then later post war 
    and economy pilots,  the valve gear for this pre war 
    engine and a picture of the trailing truck that has some slight 
    differences in the detail ( one at the back end between the wheels are 
    detail differences) then later trailing trucks. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            I can also send 
    you pictures of both the post war 12 volt Super Pacific with V-2  motor 
    and all equalized drivers and the last run economy version with an open face 
    motor and rigid frame if you would want to compare and be ready if you 
    purchase another Varney Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            If you have any 
    other questions I will be glad to answer them as best as I can. I hope I 
    made no mistakes in typing this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      

    

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
    www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.62/2315 - Release 
    Date: 08/20/09 06:05:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11461
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Trailing truck ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Wondering if anyone can definitely ID this trailing truck.  I have sent 4 
pictures, first top, second bottom and each side. One wheel is insulated.The 
frame work a heavier gauge piece of metal. The castings have a yellow or gold 
tinge to them (second picture one side cleaned. The castings are far from smooth 
unless time has done something to them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         The type of wheels remind me of 
early post war Mantua trailing truck but I don't know about pre war.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         Sean get off the beach and let me 
know if it could be from the pre war Mantua Atlantic, Pacific or even the 
mountain frame ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         This came on an early pre war 
Varney engine but I have never seen one like it before.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Ray F 
W        Do you recognize it. Could it be the 
earliest Varney trailing truck maybe from the first 3 rail engines 
?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Any help appreciated as I 
have no idea . Doesn't look el cheapo . Can't tell for sure if the metal frame 
work goes through the cast part or is two pieces soldered to each 
end.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Thanks      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11462
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Trailing truck ID [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, I can't say that I've ever seen a trailing truck quite like this.  Can't even say that it's not a pre-War Varney 3-rail Pacific truck, although I strongly doubt that as Hal Fletcher gave me bunches of 2-rail and 3-rail Pacific parts -- most being the same part/part-number -- but nothing like this.  The side frames appear to be brass/bronze sand castings.  I believe Conover used some sand castings, but I can't verify it as such.  Maybe we'll recognize it as we look around at pre-War engine pics, like Walthers Baltic, etc.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11463
						From: greenbrier614
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I agree with Glenn, Dennis. The loco is not as advertised, so I would give the seller a list of all the problems and try to come to reasonable price for a parts loco. If the frame is bent at any more than a slight angle, it won't straighten without snapping.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 --Said Nelson, sitting at his home computer. :(
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> tell the seller it looks more like a "parts engine" and bargain from there. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "Dennis Thompson" <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11464
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis, As has already been pointed out, this frame won't straighten before breaking.  Varney's zamak is not as "soft" (bendable) as that of MDC/Roundhouse, for instance, and will snap given enough pressure.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Before discussing anything with the seller though, make sure to test the driver sets to see if they're for two-rail (insulated) or three-rail (non-insulated).  If they're for three rail engines, that's just something else you'll need to replace, which will add to your expenses -- and which will need to be included in your discussion.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11465
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: sad  Varney Pacific: resolution..
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks again everyone.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
We made a deal;  I'm keeping it for, now, $26 plus a little shipping, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
(half what they wanted).  I figure I might be skunked on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
locomotive, but the Varney heavy Vandy cast tender is easily 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
repairable and worth that much to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
That agreed upon, I just pulled the engine apart.  The frame is bent 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
upward just ahead of the front driver where the arch occurs for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
clearance for the rear wheel set for the, absent here, pilot 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
truck.  I'd be surprised if will straighten without breaking.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Cylinders are fine.  Motor is a V-1 and dirty; I'll see about that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
later.  Drivers are fine.  Yes, Jim, it has the brass sheet across 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the frame front which supports the two cast steps up toward the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
smokebox.  One set of steps has broken.  Brass bent, but no big deal, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
it's just sheet. Actual pilot is gone, but one similar can probably 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
be adapted.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Valve gear/side rods are fine but previous owner soldered the main 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
eccentric crank on.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have a question even though I have studied Jim's contributions to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
HO Seeker's doc. site:  Fore and aft sprung drivers drop out easily 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
but does the main geared driver set also drop straight down out of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
frame????????????  If so, it is just too snug yet to move.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
ALL of this locomotive has years of grim and brushed black paint.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
have no loss then, whatsoever, in stripping the paint.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I'll look for a frame but not count on it.  I may try to adapt pilot 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and trailing trucks as long as I can do that without 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
altering/drilling the original locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I think I could like these older Varney engines............  Too bad 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I began this Varney era so poorly.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 03:32 PM 8/20/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >I agree with Glenn, Dennis. The loco is not as advertised, so I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>would give the seller a list of all the problems and try to come to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>reasonable price for a parts loco. If the frame is bent at any more 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>than a slight angle, it won't straighten without snapping.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  --Said Nelson, sitting at his home computer. :(
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > tell the seller it looks more like a "parts engine" and bargain 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> from there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > From: "Dennis Thompson" <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Subject: [vintageHO] sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11466
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific [6 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim:

                                                                                                                                                                                      
GREAT photos; thank you, they are a big help.  My front step and
support is the same sheet brass as you show in your front view.  Too
bad my boiler is not brass/bronze as yours looks so nice they way you
have it.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If I get lucky enough to repair mine, it will never be quite,
"right," but at least anything I do will be a move to save the
locomotive.

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I posted separately more information including the cut in price that
prompted me to keep the engine.

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Now to figure out how to handle it.

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 11:07 AM 8/20/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      [
Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis T, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    You mentioned every little bit of
information useful so I will go one better with pictures you can
hopefully use to ID pre war Pacifics.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    These pictures are of a pre war Varney
Pacific bought on Jan 6th, 1937 in Virginia by a Navy Admiral. This has
the original box and plans and is the two rail version. They also made a
3 rail version. This item has been given the number 090 in Greenberg /
Spanagel book because there was known number at the time the guide was
published. For information sake the tender with it is a Varney wood and
embossed aluminum pre war "square back tender" that was given
the number 763 in the Varney book. This number has now been officially
changed by Dave Spanagel as a similar longer square back tender with
three axled trucks has surfaced and been verified. One tender is now 763A
and the other 763B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      Getting back to the engine
which I don't intend to take apart you can see the Varney 6 volt motor,
the brass / bronze boiler used on the pre war pacific, the cast frame
with the springs inside that allows the front and back set of drivers to
flex, the pilot which is brass and slightly different then later post war
and economy pilots,  the valve gear for this pre war engine and a
picture of the trailing truck that has some slight differences in the
detail ( one at the back end between the wheels are detail differences)
then later trailing trucks. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      I can also send you pictures
of both the post war 12 volt Super Pacific with V-2  motor and all
equalized drivers and the last run economy version with an open face
motor and rigid frame if you would want to compare and be ready if you
purchase another Varney Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      If you have any other
questions I will be glad to answer them as best as I can. I hope I made
no mistakes in typing this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Attachment(s) from jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
6 of 6 Photo(s) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

IMG_4104_1.JPG

                                                                                                                                                                                      

IMG_4104_1.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                      

IMG_4107_2.JPG

                                                                                                                                                                                      

IMG_4107_2.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                      

IMG_4109_3.JPG

                                                                                                                                                                                      

IMG_4109_3.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                      

IMG_4110_4.JPG

                                                                                                                                                                                      

IMG_4110_4.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                      

IMG_4111_5.JPG

                                                                                                                                                                                      

IMG_4111_5.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                      

IMG_4112_6.JPG

                                                                                                                                                                                      

IMG_4112_6.JPG

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11467
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Trailing truck ID [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      It looks like the trailing truck on Sean’s
latest posted photos.  “194? Varney” is the title of the album. 
See what you think.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009
5:44 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Trailing
truck ID [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



            
Wondering if anyone can definitely ID this trailing truck.  I have sent 4
pictures, first top, second bottom and each side. One wheel is insulated.The frame
work a heavier gauge piece of metal. The castings have a yellow or gold tinge
to them (second picture one side cleaned. The castings are far from smooth
unless time has done something to them.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                         The type of wheels remind me of early post
war Mantua 
trailing truck but I don't know about pre war.  
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                         Sean get off the beach and let me know if
it could be from the pre war Mantua Atlantic, Pacific or even the mountain
frame ?
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                         This came on an early pre war Varney
engine but I have never seen one like it before.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                          Ray F
W        Do you recognize it. Could it be
the earliest Varney trailing truck maybe from the first 3 rail engines ?
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                           Any help appreciated as I have no
idea . Doesn't look el cheapo . Can't tell for sure if the metal frame work
goes through the cast part or is two pieces soldered to each end.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11468
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Trailing truck ID [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Oops, the title is “Mantua Pre War
Brass”
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Chuck Higdon
[mailto:vze5crrw1@...] 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009
7:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: ' vintageHO@yahoogroups.com '
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Trailing
truck ID [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      It looks like the trailing truck on
Sean’s latest posted photos.  “194? Varney” is the title
of the album.  See what you think.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009
5:44 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Trailing
truck ID [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      



            
Wondering if anyone can definitely ID this trailing truck.  I have sent 4
pictures, first top, second bottom and each side. One wheel is insulated.The
frame work a heavier gauge piece of metal. The castings have a yellow or gold
tinge to them (second picture one side cleaned. The castings are far from
smooth unless time has done something to them.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                         The type of wheels remind me of early post
war Mantua 
trailing truck but I don't know about pre war.  
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                         Sean get off the beach and let me know if
it could be from the pre war Mantua Atlantic, Pacific or even the mountain
frame ?
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                         This came on an early pre war Varney
engine but I have never seen one like it before.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                          Ray F
W        Do you recognize it. Could it be
the earliest Varney trailing truck maybe from the first 3 rail engines ?
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                           Any help appreciated as I have no
idea . Doesn't look el cheapo . Can't tell for sure if the metal frame work
goes through the cast part or is two pieces soldered to each end.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      




 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11469
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Trailing truck ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Ray FW 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for the comments. I know 
it's not the Conover for sure and I'm pretty sure from poor pictures I have 
of the Walther's Baltic that's not it. I'm trying to eliminate things one by one 
because I have no idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 6:31 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Trailing truck 
  ID
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, I can't say that 
  I've ever seen a trailing truck quite like this.  Can't even say that 
  it's not a pre-War Varney 3-rail Pacific truck, although I strongly doubt that 
  as Hal Fletcher gave me bunches of 2-rail and 3-rail Pacific parts -- most 
  being the same part/part-number -- but nothing like this.  The side 
  frames appear to be brass/bronze sand castings.  I believe Conover used 
  some sand castings, but I can't verify it as such.  Maybe we'll recognize 
  it as we look around at pre-War engine pics, like Walthers Baltic, etc. 
   Ray F.W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11470
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Ray:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
As you may have already read, I now own the locomotive.  Your 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
2-rail/3-rail point is good as I never thought of it.  Just now I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
grabbed an ohm-meter and checked at the driver tires:  it's 2-rail; 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
they're insulated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Soon as I know how to drop the geared center driver/axle, I'll be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
down to bare frame so I can assess my problems with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 03:44 PM 8/20/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >Dennis, As has already been pointed out, this frame won't straighten 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>before breaking.  Varney's zamak is not as "soft" (bendable) as that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>of MDC/Roundhouse, for instance, and will snap given enough pressure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Before discussing anything with the seller though, make sure to test 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>the driver sets to see if they're for two-rail (insulated) or 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>three-rail (non-insulated).  If they're for three rail engines, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>that's just something else you'll need to replace, which will add to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>your expenses -- and which will need to be included in your discussion.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11471
						From: toptrain2100
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: New project photos added.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I am kitbashing a PRR K4 streamline pacific useing the bronze varney hudson boiler. I will not change the bronze bolier, only add on to it. I'll be makeing a PRR streamline K4 as much to pennsy standards as possiable. I tried a old brass mountain drive shortned from 4 axels to 3.It didn't work out. The mantua seams to be the best I have for it. The old hudson tender is a good fit. It is just as wide and high as the varney with drive. I will remove all rivits from the tender sides with the exception of the top and bottom rows. You can see the skirts I have made. I am now working on the Belpair firebox. I will keep updateing this message add adding photos. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 Their is a new album I started for this project.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
             frank
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11472
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: sad  Varney Pacific: resolution..
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      A good deal at $26 for a Varney, even though it needs fixin'.  If you don't mind non-original parts, many replacement parts can be had from Yardbird Classic Trains @ < yardbirdtrains.com >.  If I'm not mistaken, while it's been a while since I've swapped around Varney parts, I believe you could bolt a post-War frame to this boiler if you wanted too, but that would mean all new drivers and axles (besides a DC-71 motor).  Ray F.W.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11473
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I got the center driving box separated by gently rocking the driver 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
set back-and-forth.  Sure cute little bearing halves in this thing.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Now I'm down to bent bare frame.  Scary.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 03:44 PM 8/20/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >Dennis, As has already been pointed out, this frame won't straighten 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>before breaking.  Varney's zamak is not as "soft" (bendable) as that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>of MDC/Roundhouse, for instance, and will snap given enough pressure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Before discussing anything with the seller though, make sure to test 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>the driver sets to see if they're for two-rail (insulated) or 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>three-rail (non-insulated).  If they're for three rail engines, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>that's just something else you'll need to replace, which will add to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>your expenses -- and which will need to be included in your discussion.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11474
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: sad  Varney Pacific: resolution..
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm 
going to answer two emails in one so I can remember each point. This 
and the one to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Try the motor as soon as 
possible. Oil the bearings and clean the commutator and brushes. Hook it up to a 
transformer, remembering it is 6 volt and only try to run it a short 
time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Take Ray FW advice and check to 
see if it might be 3 rail or most likely 2 rail.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I have a non Varney brass 
pilot look a like that I will send to you free.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           I think I have the cast 
ladder but will check by tomorrow. Yours free if I have.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          You will have to be very careful 
taking the engine apart as the cast main and side rods can be brittle and will 
break. I don't have new original pre war eccentrics.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          The cast frame will be the 
hardest to find as only the pre war frame that accepts the V-1 motor must be 
used. I have a friend in Ohio who had a frame that I bought from him. I will 
supply his name to you off site ( give me your Email address) and you can 
contact him direct. He has / had a lot of Varney parts and  might even have 
other parts you need. He is a very elderly gentlemen who finds it hard to hear 
and you might have to raise your voice to talk. I will dig that name and address 
out by tomorrow also. Hey I doubt you can straighten the frame with out snapping 
it but go ahead and try after you get it apart. Since it wrapped and not 
cracked, even if it snaps what do you have to lose, as you can drill holes in 
either end, use two pins, even brass, drop in some crazy glue and let dry for a 
while. Then grind and shape the frame straight. Only suggesting this because of 
where you said the bend is . You might get a repaired frame out of 
it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         How to remove the center driver ? It 
comes out the bottom like the other two. It is held in with a set of bearing 
blocks smaller then the other two drivers. Use some penetrating oil to 
loosen it and they should come off. Be careful not to loose or switch as "they 
claimed" these sets are matched. Use the plans on HOseeker to see and guide 
you.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        As for the body right now just use the cast 
metal body and look for the Brass / Bronze one. Two screws / bolts actually to 
change if you find one. You could still use the engine for now.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         I'm sure others have suggestions too. 
Maybe between use all we can save a pre war vintage piece. If you want anymore 
info just ask. I'll let you know about the parts and frame address 
tomorrow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 6:55 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: sad Varney 
  Pacific: resolution..
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks again everyone.

                                                                                                                                                                                      We made a deal; I'm keeping it for, now, $26 
  plus a little shipping, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      (half what they wanted). I figure I might be 
  skunked on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      locomotive, but the Varney heavy Vandy cast tender is 
  easily 
                                                                                                                                                                                      repairable and worth that much to me.

                                                                                                                                                                                      That agreed upon, I 
  just pulled the engine apart. The frame is bent 
                                                                                                                                                                                      upward just ahead of the 
  front driver where the arch occurs for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      clearance for the rear wheel set 
  for the, absent here, pilot 
                                                                                                                                                                                      truck. I'd be surprised if will straighten 
  without breaking.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Cylinders are fine. Motor is a V-1 and dirty; I'll 
  see about that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      later. Drivers are fine. Yes, Jim, it has the brass sheet 
  across 
                                                                                                                                                                                      the frame front which supports the two cast steps up toward the 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      smokebox. One set of steps has broken. Brass bent, but no big deal, 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      it's just sheet. Actual pilot is gone, but one similar can probably 
                                                                                                                                                                                      be 
  adapted.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Valve gear/side rods are fine but previous owner soldered the 
  main 
                                                                                                                                                                                      eccentric crank on.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a question even though I have 
  studied Jim's contributions to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      HO Seeker's doc. site: Fore and aft sprung 
  drivers drop out easily 
                                                                                                                                                                                      but does the main geared driver set also drop 
  straight down out of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      frame??????? ????? If so, it is just too snug yet 
  to move.

                                                                                                                                                                                      ALL of this locomotive has years of grim and brushed black 
  paint. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      have no loss then, whatsoever, in stripping the 
  paint.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'll look for a frame but not count on it. I may try to adapt 
  pilot 
                                                                                                                                                                                      and trailing trucks as long as I can do that without 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      altering/drilling the original locomotive.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I think I could like 
  these older Varney engines..... ....... Too bad 
                                                                                                                                                                                      I began this Varney 
  era so poorly.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                      At 03:32 PM 8/20/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >I 
  agree with Glenn, Dennis. The loco is not as advertised, so I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >would 
  give the seller a list of all the problems and try to come to 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      >reasonable price for a parts loco. If the frame is bent at any more 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      >than a slight angle, it won't straighten without 
  snapping.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > --Said Nelson, sitting at his home computer. 
  :(
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > tell the 
  seller it looks more like a "parts engine" and bargain 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > from 
  there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
  From: "Dennis Thompson" <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Subject: 
  [vintageHO] sad old Varney Pacific: need 
  i.d./comments
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >----------- --------- --------- -------
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Yahoo! 
  Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >No virus found in this 
  incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Version: 8.5.392 
  / Virus Database: 270.13.62/2315 - Release Date: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >08/20/09 
  06:05:00

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11475
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      You may just need some WD-40 sprayed in the frame opening -- top and bottom -- for that center set of Drivers.  They drop right out of there with the two sets of Main (fixed) Bearing Blocks; there's nothing holding them (except the frame cover- plate).  Sounds like gunk is caked between the Bearing Blocks and the Frame.  Maybe allowing even a little penetrating oil to do its thing might work.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11476
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New project photos added.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Frank,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Good luck on your project. 
I am not up to par on knowing the real train but why don't you just use the 
Varney Hudson drive that is under the streamlined boiler remove the 4 wheel 
trailing truck and add a Varney ,or something prototypical, trailing truck to it 
?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I had once 
approached  Mantua to use their Pacific drive and manufacture plastic 
bodies of the streamlined Pennsy K-4, the Lehigh Valley John Wilkes and the 
Reading Crusader that would be interchangable and you could buy the body you 
want to mount on the Mantua Pacific drive.  ( Yes I know you might not be 
true to scale especially driver size for all the engines ) The reply  was 
to costly. Yet it was at the time Bachman was producing all their different 
boilers many using the same 4-8-4 frames, albeit out of the country.The Mantua 
head engineer at that time, Glenn Woerner if I remember right, said they 
wouldn't use plastic boilers or go out of the USA..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I thought it 
was a good idea
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:17 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] New project photos 
  added.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I am kitbashing a PRR K4 streamline pacific useing the bronze varney hudson 
  boiler. I will not change the bronze bolier, only add on to it. I'll be 
  makeing a PRR streamline K4 as much to pennsy standards as possiable. I tried 
  a old brass mountain drive shortned from 4 axels to 3.It didn't work out. The 
  mantua seams to be the best I have for it. The old hudson tender is a good 
  fit. It is just as wide and high as the varney with drive. I will remove all 
  rivits from the tender sides with the exception of the top and bottom rows. 
  You can see the skirts I have made. I am now working on the Belpair firebox. I 
  will keep updateing this message add adding photos. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Their is a new album I 
  started for this project.
                                                                                                                                                                                      frank

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11477
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: sad  Varney Pacific: resolution..
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      What is the frame made of?  At that location, perhaps it can be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
straightened--if not,and it breaks, it could be repaired with JB Weld--since 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
its location is not critical to operation.  Use a splice plate of thin 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
brass.  Possibly some 00-90 screws to help hold it.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Dennis Thompson" <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 3:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: sad Varney Pacific: resolution..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks again everyone.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> We made a deal;  I'm keeping it for, now, $26 plus a little shipping,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (half what they wanted).  I figure I might be skunked on the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> locomotive, but the Varney heavy Vandy cast tender is easily
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> repairable and worth that much to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> That agreed upon, I just pulled the engine apart.  The frame is bent
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> upward just ahead of the front driver where the arch occurs for
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> clearance for the rear wheel set for the, absent here, pilot
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> truck.  I'd be surprised if will straighten without breaking.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Cylinders are fine.  Motor is a V-1 and dirty; I'll see about that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> later.  Drivers are fine.  Yes, Jim, it has the brass sheet across
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the frame front which supports the two cast steps up toward the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> smokebox.  One set of steps has broken.  Brass bent, but no big deal,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> it's just sheet. Actual pilot is gone, but one similar can probably
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> be adapted.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Valve gear/side rods are fine but previous owner soldered the main
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> eccentric crank on.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have a question even though I have studied Jim's contributions to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> HO Seeker's doc. site:  Fore and aft sprung drivers drop out easily
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> but does the main geared driver set also drop straight down out of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> frame????????????  If so, it is just too snug yet to move.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ALL of this locomotive has years of grim and brushed black paint.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have no loss then, whatsoever, in stripping the paint.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I'll look for a frame but not count on it.  I may try to adapt pilot
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and trailing trucks as long as I can do that without
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> altering/drilling the original locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I think I could like these older Varney engines............  Too bad
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I began this Varney era so poorly.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> At 03:32 PM 8/20/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>I agree with Glenn, Dennis. The loco is not as advertised, so I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>would give the seller a list of all the problems and try to come to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>reasonable price for a parts loco. If the frame is bent at any more
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>than a slight angle, it won't straighten without snapping.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>  --Said Nelson, sitting at his home computer. :(
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > tell the seller it looks more like a "parts engine" and bargain
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> from there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > From: "Dennis Thompson" <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > Subject: [vintageHO] sad old Varney Pacific: need i.d./comments
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.62/2315 - Release Date:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>08/20/09 06:05:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.62/2315 - Release Date: 08/20/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
06:05:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11478
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Trailing truck ID
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         I just got time to look about that 
trailing truck but must be in the wrong album. Mantua 2-8-2 ??? I'll check 
again. It's late and my brain is shutting down.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:04 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Trailing truck 
  ID
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      It looks like the 
  trailing truck on Sean’s latest posted photos.  “194? Varney” is the 
  title of the album.  See what you think.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at 
  http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 5:44 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Trailing truck ID [4 
  Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  Wondering if anyone can definitely ID this trailing truck.  I have sent 4 
  pictures, first top, second bottom and each side. One wheel is insulated.The 
  frame work a heavier gauge piece of metal. The castings have a yellow or gold 
  tinge to them (second picture one side cleaned. The castings are far from 
  smooth unless time has done something to them.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         The type of 
  wheels remind me of early post war Mantua trailing truck 
  but I don't know about pre war.  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         Sean get off the 
  beach and let me know if it could be from the pre war Mantua Atlantic, Pacific 
  or even the mountain frame ?
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         This came on an 
  early pre war Varney engine but I have never seen one like it 
  before.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          Ray F 
  W        Do you recognize it. Could it be 
  the earliest Varney trailing truck maybe from the first 3 rail engines 
  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Any help 
  appreciated as I have no idea . Doesn't look el cheapo . Can't tell for sure 
  if the metal frame work goes through the cast part or is two pieces soldered 
  to each end.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  Thanks      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11479
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: sad  Varney Pacific: resolution..
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
Hi Jim:

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thank you for the added information and very kind offers.  My email
is:     dbt@...    Of course
I accept, I could hardly say otherwise, (grin).  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I already intend to keep this the Pre-War piece it began life.  I'd
rather end up with a non-functioning display instead of up-dating to
later frame/drivers.  Just a personal feeling there.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In recent years I'd completely lost interest in HO gauge.  I have a
few pieces of logging equipment, (my old, original interest), in larger
scales.  But, "modern," HO interests, regardless of the
current high level of detail, just left me.  When I stumbled across
this group and the sudden idea I could again, at my age, re-claim a
Varney Casey Jones, etc., my vintage interests have skyrocketed.  I
don't know why I like this stuff so well, so fast.

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Looking forward to hearing from you direct.

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 04:49 PM 8/20/2009, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        I'm going to
answer two emails in one so I can remember each point. This and the one
to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Try the motor as soon as possible. Oil
the bearings and clean the commutator and brushes. Hook it up to a
transformer, remembering it is 6 volt and only try to run it a short
time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Take Ray FW advice and check to see if it
might be 3 rail or most likely 2 rail.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    I have a non Varney brass pilot look a
like that I will send to you free.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
     I think I have the cast ladder but
will check by tomorrow. Yours free if I have.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    You will have to be very careful taking
the engine apart as the cast main and side rods can be brittle and will
break. I don't have new original pre war eccentrics.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    The cast frame will be the hardest to
find as only the pre war frame that accepts the V-1 motor must be used. I
have a friend in Ohio who had a frame that I bought from him. I will
supply his name to you off site ( give me your Email address) and you can
contact him direct. He has / had a lot of Varney parts and  might
even have other parts you need. He is a very elderly gentlemen who finds
it hard to hear and you might have to raise your voice to talk. I will
dig that name and address out by tomorrow also. Hey I doubt you can
straighten the frame with out snapping it but go ahead and try after you
get it apart. Since it wrapped and not cracked, even if it snaps what do
you have to lose, as you can drill holes in either end, use two pins,
even brass, drop in some crazy glue and let dry for a while. Then grind
and shape the frame straight. Only suggesting this because of where you
said the bend is . You might get a repaired frame out of it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
   How to remove the center driver ? It comes out
the bottom like the other two. It is held in with a set of bearing blocks
smaller then the other two drivers. Use some penetrating oil to loosen it
and they should come off. Be careful not to loose or switch as "they
claimed" these sets are matched. Use the plans on HOseeker to see
and guide you.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  As for the body right now just use the cast metal
body and look for the Brass / Bronze one. Two screws / bolts actually to
change if you find one. You could still use the engine for now.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
   I'm sure others have suggestions too. Maybe
between use all we can save a pre war vintage piece. If you want anymore
info just ask. I'll let you know about the parts and frame address
tomorrow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                        
Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11480
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: little subject change
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I just wanted to let everyone 
know that if you go into the Varney listings there is a Lindsay "Stubby" being 
sold and identified as a Varney. Don't know the number off hand but just go 
through the Varney HO train listings. A little while back someone was looking 
for one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11481
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New project photos added.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      It's still a good idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It would be a great cottage industry project! Might be based on a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
different chassis today, but still would be great to see.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Aug 20, 2009, at 7:09 PM, jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Frank,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      Good luck on your project. I am not up to par on knowing the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> real train but why don't you just use the Varney Hudson drive that  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> is under the streamlined boiler remove the 4 wheel trailing truck  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and add a Varney ,or something prototypical, trailing truck to it ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       I had once approached  Mantua to use their Pacific drive and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> manufacture plastic bodies of the streamlined Pennsy K-4, the Lehigh  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Valley John Wilkes and the Reading Crusader that would be  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> interchangable and you could buy the body you want to mount on the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mantua Pacific drive.  ( Yes I know you might not be true to scale  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> especially driver size for all the engines ) The reply  was to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> costly. Yet it was at the time Bachman was producing all their  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> different boilers many using the same 4-8-4 frames, albeit out of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the country.The Mantua head engineer at that time, Glenn Woerner if  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I remember right, said they wouldn't use plastic boilers or go out  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of the USA..
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       I thought it was a good idea
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                   Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: toptrain2100
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I am kitbashing a PRR K4 streamline pacific useing the bronze varney  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> hudson boiler. I will not change the bronze bolier, only add on to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> it. I'll be makeing a PRR streamline K4 as much to pennsy standards  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> as possiable. I tried a old brass mountain drive shortned from 4  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> axels to 3.It didn't work out. The mantua seams to be the best I  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have for it. The old hudson tender is a good fit. It is just as wide  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and high as the varney with drive. I will remove all rivits from the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> tender sides with the exception of the top and bottom rows. You can  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> see the skirts I have made. I am now working on the Belpair firebox.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I will keep updateing this message add adding photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Their is a new album I started for this project.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> frank 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11482
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New project photos added.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      In the late 1980's Wabash Valley made a B&O "Cincinnatian"  boiler to fit 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the Mantua Pacific, so it's not such a new idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New project photos added.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It's still a good idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It would be a great cottage industry project! Might be based on a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> different chassis today, but still would be great to see.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On Aug 20, 2009, at 7:09 PM, jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Frank,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>      Good luck on your project. I am not up to par on knowing the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> real train but why don't you just use the Varney Hudson drive that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> is under the streamlined boiler remove the 4 wheel trailing truck
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> and add a Varney ,or something prototypical, trailing truck to it ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>       I had once approached  Mantua to use their Pacific drive and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> manufacture plastic bodies of the streamlined Pennsy K-4, the Lehigh
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Valley John Wilkes and the Reading Crusader that would be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> interchangable and you could buy the body you want to mount on the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Mantua Pacific drive.  ( Yes I know you might not be true to scale
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> especially driver size for all the engines ) The reply  was to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> costly. Yet it was at the time Bachman was producing all their
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> different boilers many using the same 4-8-4 frames, albeit out of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> the country.The Mantua head engineer at that time, Glenn Woerner if
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I remember right, said they wouldn't use plastic boilers or go out
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> of the USA..
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>       I thought it was a good idea
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>  H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> From: toptrain2100
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I am kitbashing a PRR K4 streamline pacific useing the bronze varney
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> hudson boiler. I will not change the bronze bolier, only add on to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> it. I'll be makeing a PRR streamline K4 as much to pennsy standards
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> as possiable. I tried a old brass mountain drive shortned from 4
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> axels to 3.It didn't work out. The mantua seams to be the best I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> have for it. The old hudson tender is a good fit. It is just as wide
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> and high as the varney with drive. I will remove all rivits from the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> tender sides with the exception of the top and bottom rows. You can
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> see the skirts I have made. I am now working on the Belpair firebox.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I will keep updateing this message add adding photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Their is a new album I started for this project.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> frank
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11483
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The Varney Pacific was modeled on a well known SP Pacific prototype, a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
prototype that Bill Withuhn at the Smithsonian famously described as  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
"a Pacific as God intended a Pacific to look".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The same Varney boiler as used on the mikado was only as a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
convenience, and  had no such elegant provenance. As a result, it is  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
ill-fitting, and has no prototype resemblance. Varney in those days  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
was discerning and produced for the Mikado g, and I have always  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
believed that this is why a new and much more appropriate boiler was  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
designed soon after the war, while the Pacific lasted to the end, "as  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
was".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Okoboji, IA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11484
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 8/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific-progress
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks, Denny.  I always like the history on this stuff......in fact, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
if they had no history I'd probably be looking at something else.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Progress on the frame:  I buffed the bad end with a small wire wheel 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
on a Dremel tool, then took it to the basement.  I heated that one 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
spot a bit, (cautious there), then went to bending.  I immediately 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
felt something, "give."  Sure, it cracked, but only enough to let it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
straighten and the frame remained one piece.  So I filled the tiny 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
crack with, "Zap-A-Gap," which I use for other modeling 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
purposes.  Now it's straight and nothing, so far, has detached.  Thus 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
far, I feel lucky.  I think I should not be dependent on the glue for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
strength, so will look at pilot truck clearances, (as best I can 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
having no pilot truck yet), and I'm thinking about putting a narrow 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
brass strip on each side of the frame at the repaired joint.  Maybe 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
use JB Weld to attach the strips.  Doing that I might stand a chance 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of having a repaired frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Next is checking the motor as Jim suggested, which I might leave 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
until tomorrow.  I think I'll put enough dry flashlight cells in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
series to get 4.5V and try that first.  If the motor moves any with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
that voltage I'll have a good start.  Normally, with a unit like this 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
on the used market, I'd figure someone had slapped it on an HO track 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and shoved 12V into it to try it.  Maybe they did.  But it is SO 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
filthy dirty it is obvious no one has given it much attention for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
many, many years.  That might have saved the motor, but I won't hold my breath.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Things are looking up.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 06:47 PM 8/20/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >The Varney Pacific was modeled on a well known SP Pacific prototype, a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>prototype that Bill Withuhn at the Smithsonian famously described as
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>"a Pacific as God intended a Pacific to look".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>The same Varney boiler as used on the mikado was only as a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>convenience, and  had no such elegant provenance. As a result, it is
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>ill-fitting, and has no prototype resemblance. Varney in those days
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>was discerning and produced for the Mikado g, and I have always
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>believed that this is why a new and much more appropriate boiler was
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>designed soon after the war, while the Pacific lasted to the end, "as
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>was".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Okoboji, IA 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11485
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 8/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New project photos added.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm sure we can date it back to Prewar, where some of the model  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
makers were selling the same mech with different boilers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It's not that it's a new idea. It's an frequently rediscovered idea  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
that has been inactive for many years since we last saw it in action.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It's still done a lot in HOn30 and On30 and has been non-stop for the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
last couple of decades. The mainline modelers just aren't getting the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
same option.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Aug 20, 2009, at 8:21 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> In the late 1980's Wabash Valley made a B&O "Cincinnatian"  boiler  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to fit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the Mantua Pacific, so it's not such a new idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "Mike Bauers"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> It's still a good idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> It would be a great cottage industry project! Might be based on a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> different chassis today, but still would be great to see.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> On Aug 20, 2009, at 7:09 PM, jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> Frank,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>      Good luck on your project. I am not up to par on knowing the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> real train but why don't you just use the Varney Hudson drive that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> is under the streamlined boiler remove the 4 wheel trailing truck
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> and add a Varney ,or something prototypical, trailing truck to it ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>       I had once approached  Mantua to use their Pacific drive and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> manufacture plastic bodies of the streamlined Pennsy K-4, the Lehigh
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> Valley John Wilkes and the Reading Crusader that would be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> interchangable and you could buy the body you want to mount on the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> Mantua Pacific drive.  ( Yes I know you might not be true to scale
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> especially driver size for all the engines ) The reply  was to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> costly. Yet it was at the time Bachman was producing all their
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> different boilers many using the same 4-8-4 frames, albeit out of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> the country.The Mantua head engineer at that time, Glenn Woerner if
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> I remember right, said they wouldn't use plastic boilers or go out
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> of the USA..
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>       I thought it was a good idea
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>  H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> From: toptrain2100
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> I am kitbashing a PRR K4 streamline pacific useing the bronze varney
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> hudson boiler. I will not change the bronze bolier, only add on to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> it. I'll be makeing a PRR streamline K4 as much to pennsy standards
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> as possiable. I tried a old brass mountain drive shortned from 4
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> axels to 3.It didn't work out. The mantua seams to be the best I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> have for it. The old hudson tender is a good fit. It is just as wide
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> and high as the varney with drive. I will remove all rivits from the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> tender sides with the exception of the top and bottom rows. You can
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> see the skirts I have made. I am now working on the Belpair firebox.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> I will keep updateing this message add adding photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> Their is a new album I started for this project.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> frank 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11486
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New project photos added.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Mike, 
Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
 At the time I made the suggestion to Mantua I had almost no exchange of 
information with other HO people so I didn't know if it was a new or old idea. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
The answer to my first letter came back dated  Jan 29, 1991. The main part 
of Mantua's answer was as follows:  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       " We have considered the streamlined 
Pacific for the past few years, but for economic reasons have not been able to 
justify the tooling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
Basic tooling for a diecast or injection molded boiler is over & 40,000 for 
a "cheap" tool. This kind of expense requires a tremendous market demand to 
justify the expenditure. Our market survey shows an interest, but not one large 
enough to payback the investment in a reasonable time. Hopefully the resurgence 
of model railroading will grow in the near future that we can again develop 
products for these great railroads "      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              This was 
signed by   Glenn A. Woerner   Quality Control 
Manager
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              I 
responded about Bachman and plastic boilers. I received a second letter 
that they really didn't want plastic boilers nor outside the US 
production.  I just thought the responses I received could be interesting 
and viewed as HO history.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim 
H    
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:34 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New project 
  photos added.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm sure we can date it back to Prewar, where some of the model 
                                                                                                                                                                                      makers 
  were selling the same mech with different boilers.

                                                                                                                                                                                      It's not that it's a 
  new idea. It's an frequently rediscovered idea 
                                                                                                                                                                                      that has been inactive for 
  many years since we last saw it in action.

                                                                                                                                                                                      It's still done a lot in 
  HOn30 and On30 and has been non-stop for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      last couple of decades. The 
  mainline modelers just aren't getting the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      same option.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to 
  ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                                                      On Aug 20, 2009, at 8:21 PM, 
  Don Dellmann wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      > In the late 1980's Wabash Valley made a 
  B&O "Cincinnatian" boiler 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > to fit
                                                                                                                                                                                      > the Mantua Pacific, so 
  it's not such a new idea.

                                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  From: "Mike Bauers"
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> It's still a good 
  idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> It would be a great cottage industry project! 
  Might be based on a
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> different chassis today, but still would be 
  great to see.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Mike 
  Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> On Aug 20, 2009, at 
  7:09 PM, jim heckard 
  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> 
  Frank,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> Good luck on your project. I am not up 
  to par on knowing the
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> real train but why don't you just use 
  the Varney Hudson drive that
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> is under the streamlined boiler 
  remove the 4 wheel trailing truck
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> and add a Varney ,or 
  something prototypical, trailing truck to it ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> 
  I had once approached Mantua to use their Pacific drive and
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> 
  manufacture plastic bodies of the streamlined Pennsy K-4, the 
  Lehigh
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> Valley John Wilkes and the Reading Crusader that would 
  be
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> interchangable and you could buy the body you want to mount 
  on the
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> Mantua Pacific drive. ( Yes I know you might not be 
  true to scale
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> especially driver size for all the engines ) The 
  reply was to
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> costly. Yet it was at the time Bachman was 
  producing all their
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> different boilers many using the same 
  4-8-4 frames, albeit out of
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> the country.The Mantua head 
  engineer at that time, Glenn Woerner if
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> I remember right, said 
  they wouldn't use plastic boilers or go out
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> of the 
  USA..
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> I thought it was a good 
  idea
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> From: 
  toptrain2100
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> I am kitbashing a PRR K4 
  streamline pacific useing the bronze varney
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> hudson boiler. I 
  will not change the bronze bolier, only add on to
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> it. I'll be 
  makeing a PRR streamline K4 as much to pennsy standards
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> as 
  possiable. I tried a old brass mountain drive shortned from 4
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> 
  axels to 3.It didn't work out. The mantua seams to be the best 
  I
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> have for it. The old hudson tender is a good fit. It is just 
  as wide
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> and high as the varney with drive. I will remove all 
  rivits from the
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> tender sides with the exception of the top and 
  bottom rows. You can
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> see the skirts I have made. I am now 
  working on the Belpair firebox.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> I will keep updateing this 
  message add adding photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> Their is a new album I started for 
  this project.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>> frank

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11487
						From: sprinthag
						Date: 8/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New project photos added.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I'm sure we can date it back to Prewar, where some of the model  makers were selling the same mech with different boilers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It's not that it's a new idea. It's an frequently rediscovered idea  that has been inactive for many years since we last saw it in action.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On Aug 20, 2009, at 8:21 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
In the late 1980's Wabash Valley made a B&O "Cincinnatian"  boiler to fit the Mantua Pacific, so it's not such a new idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > From: "Mike Bauers"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It's still a good idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It would be a great cottage industry project! Might be based on a  different chassis today, but still would be great to see.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> On Aug 20, 2009, at 7:09 PM, jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I had once approached  Mantua to use their Pacific drive and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
manufacture plastic bodies of the streamlined Pennsy K-4, the Lehigh  Valley John Wilkes and the Reading Crusader that would be interchangeable and you could buy the body you want to mount on the  Mantua Pacific drive.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Mantua head engineer at that time, Glenn Woerner if I remember right, said they wouldn't use plastic boilers or go out of the USA.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Hail to the memory of Mantua. While they did use some plastic in later years their reluctance to going over seas was admirable. But then, they are now no longer.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As far as what's been done before how about Don Stromberg (Cary Locomotive Works). He made several steam conversion boilers for Mantua and other drives over the years. The USRA 2-8-2, 4-6-2 and Pittsburg 4-4-0 boilers for Mantua drives were by far the most popular. I should also mention his proliferation of diesel shells for Athearn and Hobbytown drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
And yes, I do feel that it would still be a viable cottage industry today. I also feel that the Mantua drives are still a good choice if for no other reasons than their simplicity, ruggedness and availability. Others, such as the various MDC drives could also be good choices. I do not know that the current offerings of import plastic would be all that popular due to their cost and complex nature but will probably know more once I get into my GB&W 2-8-0 #398 project based on a shortened Spectrum Russian Decapod (I have the 2-10-0 on the shelf awaiting its turn).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Saint Francis, WI 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11488
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 8/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New project photos added.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      A Penn Line (or Bowser) PRR 4-6-2 chassis is a fine fit in the Varney  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
"streamlined" body shell. IMHO, it looks infinitely better than with  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the intended Varney chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Okoboji, IA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11489
						From: toptrain2100
						Date: 8/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New project photos added.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Frank,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      Good luck on your project. I am not up to par on knowing the real train but why don't you just use the Varney Hudson drive that is under the streamlined boiler remove the 4 wheel trailing truck 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Hi Jim I don't have a original drive just the boiler. Their are some photos posted at this time. One shows the the boiler and drive together with the Gilbert tender. They seam to look nice together. I don't like all the rivets on the tender. You can see the handrails and shrouding. I am working on the belpair firebox and tomorrow I'll visit my son and he'll do the milling for the recesses on top for the whistle and popet valves. their will be more photos. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
   frank
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: toptrain2100 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: [vintageHO] New project photos added.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     I am kitbashing a PRR K4 streamline pacific useing the bronze varney hudson boiler. I will not change the bronze bolier, only add on to it. I'll be makeing a PRR streamline K4 as much to pennsy standards as possiable. I tried a old brass mountain drive shortned from 4 axels to 3.It didn't work out. The mantua seams to be the best I have for it. The old hudson tender is a good fit. It is just as wide and high as the varney with drive. I will remove all rivits from the tender sides with the exception of the top and bottom rows. You can see the skirts I have made. I am now working on the Belpair firebox. I will keep updateing this message add adding photos. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Their is a new album I started for this project.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   frank
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11490
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New project photos added.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                            Denny, Frank, 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             I totally 
agree that a Penn Line ( Bowser too ) chassis and drive would be a good start as 
it is a Pennsy K-4 look / design to start with and after all is under the 
PL Crusader. You might even find a Rivarossi 4-6-2 frame and drive suitable. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Again I'm not 
into the real thing and scale sizes but get the feeling the Varney streamlined 
body is a little long to use for the Pennsy streamlined K-4. Just wondering on 
this point it's your project. ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 11:23 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New project 
  photos added.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      A Penn Line (or Bowser) PRR 4-6-2 chassis is a fine fit in the Varney 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      "streamlined" body shell. IMHO, it looks infinitely better than with 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      the intended Varney chassis.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny S. Anspach 
  MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      Okoboji, IA

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11491
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 8/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New project photos added.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Don't worry Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You weren't expected to know that. I was mainly responding to Don  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
about the first-seen observation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I suspect that a good chassis today would be the Model Power 4-6-2,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
since it seems to be consistently available.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
What you are reminding us of, is the best way for me to get my own  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Crusader steamer. Maybe some of us should make a winter project of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
making some streamlined superstructures this winter?? Some cast-off  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
fluted passenger cars would work well for much of the locomotive and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
tender body.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Wouldn't it be nice to have some different ones made between a number  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of us. Then we go on to use the methods of making cold-cast castings  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to share the results between us. [ That's all worked out for us and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
not too hard to learn and use. ]
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
We can always enjoy some good free-lancing in the effort. I've long  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
wanted PRR styled shark-nosed Hudsons in the lines of their 4-4-4-4  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
T-1's...... as one example. They would work well for the average home  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
layout without being too large of a Locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Those would work well on any 4-6-2 chassis that become 4-6-4's with a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
change of the trailing truck.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Makes me want to gather Tyco/Mantua 4-6-2's from the swap meets for  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
their re-power-able drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
For the fun of it, and my being cheap.........
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Aug 21, 2009, at 8:29 AM, jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        Mike, Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>           At the time I made the suggestion to Mantua I had almost  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> no exchange of information with other HO people so I didn't know if  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> it was a new or old idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          The answer to my first letter came back dated  Jan 29,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 1991. The main part of Mantua's answer was as follows:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  " We have considered the streamlined Pacific for the past few  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> years, but for economic reasons have not been able to justify the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> tooling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          Basic tooling for a diecast or injection molded boiler is  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> over & 40,000 for a "cheap" tool. This kind of expense requires a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> tremendous market demand to justify the expenditure. Our market  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> survey shows an interest, but not one large enough to payback the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> investment in a reasonable time. Hopefully the resurgence of model  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> railroading will grow in the near future that we can again develop  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> products for these great railroads "
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         This was signed by   Glenn A. Woerner   Quality Control  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Manager
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         I responded about Bachman and plastic boilers. I received a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> second letter that they really didn't want plastic boilers nor  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> outside the US production.  I just thought the responses I received  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> could be interesting and viewed as HO history.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                          Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New project photos added.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I'm sure we can date it back to Prewar, where some of the model
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> makers were selling the same mech with different boilers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It's not that it's a new idea. It's an frequently rediscovered idea
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that has been inactive for many years since we last saw it in action.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It's still done a lot in HOn30 and On30 and has been non-stop for the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> last couple of decades. The mainline modelers just aren't getting the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> same option.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On Aug 20, 2009, at 8:21 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > In the late 1980's Wabash Valley made a B&O "Cincinnatian" boiler
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > to fit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > the Mantua Pacific, so it's not such a new idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > From: "Mike Bauers"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> It's still a good idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> It would be a great cottage industry project! Might be based on a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> different chassis today, but still would be great to see.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> On Aug 20, 2009, at 7:09 PM, jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> Frank,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> Good luck on your project. I am not up to par on knowing the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> real train but why don't you just use the Varney Hudson drive that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> is under the streamlined boiler remove the 4 wheel trailing truck
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> and add a Varney ,or something prototypical, trailing truck to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> it ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> I had once approached Mantua to use their Pacific drive and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> manufacture plastic bodies of the streamlined Pennsy K-4, the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Lehigh
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> Valley John Wilkes and the Reading Crusader that would be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> interchangable and you could buy the body you want to mount on the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> Mantua Pacific drive. ( Yes I know you might not be true to scale
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> especially driver size for all the engines ) The reply was to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> costly. Yet it was at the time Bachman was producing all their
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> different boilers many using the same 4-8-4 frames, albeit out of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> the country.The Mantua head engineer at that time, Glenn Woerner  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> if
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> I remember right, said they wouldn't use plastic boilers or go out
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> of the USA..
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> I thought it was a good idea
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> From: toptrain2100
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> I am kitbashing a PRR K4 streamline pacific useing the bronze  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> varney
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> hudson boiler. I will not change the bronze bolier, only add on to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> it. I'll be makeing a PRR streamline K4 as much to pennsy  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> standards
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> as possiable. I tried a old brass mountain drive shortned from 4
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> axels to 3.It didn't work out. The mantua seams to be the best I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> have for it. The old hudson tender is a good fit. It is just as  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> wide
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> and high as the varney with drive. I will remove all rivits from  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> tender sides with the exception of the top and bottom rows. You  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> can
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> see the skirts I have made. I am now working on the Belpair  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> firebox.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> I will keep updateing this message add adding photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> Their is a new album I started for this project.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>> frank
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11492
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Hand made Crusader
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sending these pictures of a hand made Reading Crusader that I acquired 25 
years ago. It was built on a Penn Line K-4 chassis. The engine body and tender 
were made from some shiny metal. The fluting was made from metal strips cut from 
old passenger cars. The edges of the fluting were pieces of balsa wood. The 
"decals" were cut from cardboard. The tender and engine bodies were shaped using 
car body putty and I had to repair and repaint them both when I found the item. 
I painted it by spray can as was all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                       Reading blue ( as close as I could get). It 
even had an aerodynamic shroud that fit in the back of the tender and went 
over the observation car that was coupled closest to the tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           It had 5 Mantua metal fluted passenger cars 
(2 observations) lettered and numbered 1 to 5 . It even had a special wooden 
carrying case. 
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            This engine was 
passed on to one of my closest friends when I got my PL Crusader and started 
collecting vintage only. He lives in Boyertown and was so close to the three 
owners of Penn Line he was often mistaken as the fourth owner. The tales he can 
tell. He has the largest Penn Line collection I've ever seen. He has 7 Penn Line 
Crusaders alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11493
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: questions about the B&O streamlined body
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don, Anyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 Yesterday you mentioned a body that was made of the streamlined 
B&O Cincinnatian. Was it plastic or metal ? Have you ever seen one ? Do 
you have any information from the company who made it ? Do you think any still 
exist ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Am very interested 
to find out all I can.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Thanks     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11494
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 8/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Hand made Crusader [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      That is an elegant kit-bash !!

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      On Aug 21, 2009, at 8:24 PM, jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sending these pictures of a hand made Reading Crusader that I acquired 25 years ago. It was built on a Penn Line K-4 chassis. The engine body and tender were made from some shiny metal. The fluting was made from metal strips cut from old passenger cars. The edges of the fluting were pieces of balsa wood. The "decals" were cut from cardboard. The tender and engine bodies were shaped using car body putty and I had to repair and repaint them both when I found the item. I painted it by spray can as was all the
                                                                                                                                                                                       Reading blue ( as close as I could get). It even had an aerodynamic shroud that fit in the back of the tender and went over the observation car that was coupled closest to the tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                           It had 5 Mantua metal fluted passenger cars (2 observations) lettered and numbered 1 to 5 . It even had a special wooden carrying case.
                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                            This engine was passed on to one of my closest friends when I got my PL Crusader and started collecting vintage only. He lives in Boyertown and was so close to the three owners of Penn Line he was often mistaken as the fourth owner. The tales he can tell. He has the largest Penn Line collection I've ever seen. He has 7 Penn Line Crusaders alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachment(s) from jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      2 of 2 Photo(s)


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11495
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: more hand made pics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 

 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      A couple more views of that hand made Reading 
Crusader
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11496
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: hand made
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike B,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Sent a few more pictures 
of that handmade Crusader. It was not the best looking item when found. I 
tried to spruce it up a little. There was a good idea behind it and it served my 
purpose till I got my Penn Line Crusader. Don't know the original builder or how 
old it actually is. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11497
						From: CinderCrusher
						Date: 8/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New project photos added.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Frank,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If you want to see what the loco looks like as a Pacific, go to the album titled Cinder Valley and check out the second photo.  Varney sold it as both a Hudson and as a Pacific.  The only difference was the trailing truck.  Mine came as a Pacific so I left it that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
My tender is from a PFM Western Pacific Mikado, although I must say I like the shape of your tender better.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Denny, Frank, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        I totally agree that a Penn Line ( Bowser too ) chassis and drive would be a good start as it is a Pennsy K-4 look / design to start with and after all is under the PL Crusader. You might even find a Rivarossi 4-6-2 frame and drive suitable. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        Again I'm not into the real thing and scale sizes but get the feeling the Varney streamlined body is a little long to use for the Pennsy streamlined K-4. Just wondering on this point it's your project. ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: Denny Anspach 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 11:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New project photos added.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     A Penn Line (or Bowser) PRR 4-6-2 chassis is a fine fit in the Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   "streamlined" body shell. IMHO, it looks infinitely better than with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   the intended Varney chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Okoboji, IA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11498
						From: John Barlow
						Date: 8/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Hand made Crusader [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Marvelous piece. The set would not be duplicated until decades later and then in imported brass. The "shroud" as used to cover whichever observation car was coupled to the tender because the loco and tender were the only equipment turned at the respective terminals.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Fri, 8/21/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Hand made Crusader [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 7:24 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sending these pictures of a hand made Reading Crusader that I acquired 25 years ago. It was built on a Penn Line K-4 chassis. The engine body and tender were made from some shiny metal. The fluting was made from metal strips cut from old passenger cars. The edges of the fluting were pieces of balsa wood. The "decals" were cut from cardboard. The tender and engine bodies were shaped using car body putty and I had to repair and repaint them both when I found the item. I painted it by spray can as was all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Reading blue ( as close as I could get). It even had an aerodynamic shroud that fit in the back of the tender and went over the observation car that was coupled closest to the tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           It had 5 Mantua metal fluted passenger cars (2 observations) lettered and numbered 1 to 5 . It even had a special wooden carrying case. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           This engine was passed on to one of my closest friends when I got my PL Crusader and started collecting vintage only. He lives in Boyertown and was so close to the three owners of Penn Line he was often mistaken as the fourth owner. The tales he can tell. He has the largest Penn Line collection I've ever seen. He has 7 Penn Line Crusaders alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11499
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 8/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New project photos added.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:32 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New project photos added.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don't worry Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> You weren't expected to know that. I was mainly responding to Don  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> about the first-seen observation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I suspect that a good chassis today would be the Model Power 4-6-2,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> since it seems to be consistently available.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> What you are reminding us of, is the best way for me to get my own  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Crusader steamer. Maybe some of us should make a winter project of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> making some streamlined superstructures this winter?? Some cast-off  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> fluted passenger cars would work well for much of the locomotive and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> tender body.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Wouldn't it be nice to have some different ones made between a number  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of us. Then we go on to use the methods of making cold-cast castings  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to share the results between us. [ That's all worked out for us and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> not too hard to learn and use. ]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> We can always enjoy some good free-lancing in the effort. I've long  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> wanted PRR styled shark-nosed Hudsons in the lines of their 4-4-4-4  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> T-1's...... as one example. They would work well for the average home  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> layout without being too large of a Locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Those would work well on any 4-6-2 chassis that become 4-6-4's with a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> change of the trailing truck.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Makes me want to gather Tyco/Mantua 4-6-2's from the swap meets for  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> their re-power-able drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> For the fun of it, and my being cheap.........
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Yah, when  you finish the 2,847 other projects you've started <GD&R>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11500
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 8/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: questions about the B&O streamlined body
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I never saw one, however I assume it was made of white metal.  It was listed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
in the Walthers catalog for several years from Wabash Valley, the same 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
people who took over the Red Ball line.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 8:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] questions about the B&O streamlined body
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don, Anyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
               Yesterday you mentioned a body that was made of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
streamlined B&O Cincinnatian. Was it plastic or metal ? Have you ever seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
one ? Do you have any information from the company who made it ? Do you 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
think any still exist ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      Am very interested to find out all I can.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                         Thanks     Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11501
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New project photos added.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Mike,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have an old Mantua 4-6-2 that I did up in my Resurrecting the Dinosaurs series on youtube a couple of years ago, I used an old Bachman Vanderbilt tender, and an old Pemco boiler from a 4-8-2 that was no longer functional, my engine doesn't look the best at the moment, so maybe a redo into a nice streamlined Pacific could be in order, lets see, where did I put those old Athearn streamlined passenger cars that are junked? And that extra Mantua tender I have laying around????:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 7:32:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New project photos added.

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don't worry Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                      You weren't expected to know that. I was mainly responding to Don 
                                                                                                                                                                                      about the first-seen observation.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I suspect that a good chassis today would be the Model Power 4-6-2, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      since it seems to be consistently available.

                                                                                                                                                                                      What you are reminding us of, is the best way for me to get my own 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Crusader steamer. Maybe some of us should make a winter project of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      making some streamlined superstructures this winter?? Some cast-off 
                                                                                                                                                                                      fluted passenger cars would work well for much of the locomotive and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      tender body.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Wouldn't it be nice to have some different ones made between a number 
                                                                                                                                                                                      of us. Then we go on to use the methods of making cold-cast castings 
                                                                                                                                                                                      to share the results between us. [ That's all worked out for us and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      not too hard to learn and use. ]

                                                                                                                                                                                      We can always enjoy some good free-lancing in the effort. I've long 
                                                                                                                                                                                      wanted PRR styled shark-nosed Hudsons in the lines of their 4-4-4-4
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      T-1's...... as one example. They would work well for the average home 
                                                                                                                                                                                      layout without being too large of a Locomotive.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Those would work well on any 4-6-2 chassis that become 4-6-4's with a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      change of the trailing truck.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Makes me want to gather Tyco/Mantua 4-6-2's from the swap meets for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      their re-power-able drives.

                                                                                                                                                                                      For the fun of it, and my being cheap....... ..

                                                                                                                                                                                      8^)

                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Aug 21, 2009, at 8:29 AM, jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Mike, Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > At the time I made the suggestion to Mantua I had almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > no exchange of information with other HO people so I didn't know if 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > it was a new or old idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The answer to my first letter came back dated Jan 29, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 1991. The main part of Mantua's answer was as follows:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > " We have considered the streamlined Pacific for the past few
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > years, but for economic reasons have not been able to justify the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > tooling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Basic tooling for a diecast or injection molded boiler is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > over & 40,000 for a "cheap" tool. This kind of expense requires a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > tremendous market demand to justify the expenditure. Our market 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > survey shows an interest, but not one large enough to payback the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > investment in a reasonable time. Hopefully the resurgence of model 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > railroading will grow in the near future that we can again develop 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > products for these great railroads "
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > This was signed by Glenn A. Woerner Quality Control 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Manager
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I responded about Bachman and plastic boilers. I received a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > second letter that they really didn't want plastic boilers nor 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > outside the US production. I just thought the responses I received 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > could be interesting and viewed as HO
 history.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New project photos added.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I'm sure we can date it back to Prewar, where some of the model
                                                                                                                                                                                      > makers were selling the same mech with different boilers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > It's not that it's a new idea. It's an frequently rediscovered idea
                                                                                                                                                                                      > that has been inactive for many years since we last saw it in action.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > It's still done a lot in HOn30 and On30 and has been non-stop for the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > last couple of decades. The mainline modelers just aren't getting the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > same option.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
 On Aug 20, 2009, at 8:21 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > In the late 1980's Wabash Valley made a B&O "Cincinnatian" boiler
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > to fit
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the Mantua Pacific, so it's not such a new idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > From: "Mike Bauers"
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> It's still a good idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> It would be a great cottage industry project! Might be based on a
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> different chassis today, but still would be great to see.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> On Aug 20, 2009, at 7:09 PM, jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> Frank,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> Good luck on your project. I am not up to par on knowing the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> real train but why
 don't you just use the Varney Hudson drive that
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> is under the streamlined boiler remove the 4 wheel trailing truck
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> and add a Varney ,or something prototypical, trailing truck to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > it ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> I had once approached Mantua to use their Pacific drive and
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> manufacture plastic bodies of the streamlined Pennsy K-4, the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Lehigh
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> Valley John Wilkes and the Reading Crusader that would be
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> interchangable and you could buy the body you want to mount on the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> Mantua Pacific drive. ( Yes I know you might not be true to scale
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> especially driver size for all the engines ) The reply was to
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> costly. Yet it was at the time Bachman was producing all their
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> different boilers many using the same 4-8-4 frames, albeit out of
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> the
 country.The Mantua head engineer at that time, Glenn Woerner 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > if
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> I remember right, said they wouldn't use plastic boilers or go out
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> of the USA..
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> I thought it was a good idea
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> H
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> From: toptrain2100
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> I am kitbashing a PRR K4 streamline pacific useing the bronze 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > varney
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> hudson boiler. I will not change the bronze bolier, only add on to
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> it. I'll be makeing a PRR streamline K4 as much to pennsy 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > standards
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> as possiable. I tried a old brass mountain drive shortned from 4
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> axels to 3.It didn't work out. The mantua seams to be the best I
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> have for it. The old
 hudson tender is a good fit. It is just as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > wide
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> and high as the varney with drive. I will remove all rivits from 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> tender sides with the exception of the top and bottom rows. You 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > can
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> see the skirts I have made. I am now working on the Belpair 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > firebox.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> I will keep updateing this message add adding photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> Their is a new album I started for this project.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> frank
                                                                                                                                                                                      >


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11502
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New project photos added.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
An eon ago, I set aside a n OK-metal shell of a passenger car thinking the metal would be great for a  Crusader-like steamer.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I wish I had got as far as you did.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The only fluted passenger cars I got more than a couple of, were the Athearns. I'm thinking I need to decide what cars to run and use one of those cars for the steamers.

                                                                                                                                                                                      There are so many Tyco/Mantua 4-6-2's floating around that I should be able to get the carcasses of them  for very little at the swaps.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I wish I had bought a lot of  the ConCor fluted cars when they were  under $5.......... I'd better decide upon getting a slew of Athearn, ConCor, or the new Walthers on their [close-outs often at $12] fluted cars.

                                                                                                                                                                                      One ancient idea of mine was to make a n articulated train of  Athearns that would be the head cars of a Nam,e-train; powered  by a blunt-nosed streamliner power car that couples behind the main engines of  the larger train and splits-off to cover a connecting route.. The 'Snake' articulated would be all Athearn with the power car a mix of RPO and RDC parts, While the rest of the name train would be  full-length fluted cars. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I still have the worked on body parts for the power cars and a number of the un-worked Snake cars.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'll rummage through my stored stuff and see what makes seem to match-up decently with the Athearn cars.. I have some stored and 3rd-hand kits for some of the aluminum Limited Editions SP articulated fluted metal cars  that I should build. I had been waiting for a decent way to make cut-out window strips to use instead of their printed windows. I've got the solution in hand [in-box] for that now. I want to make -those- fit in with the rest of any full-length passenger cars.

                                                                                                                                                                                      As an aside......... The old OK line of extruded metal cars are in production with about 4-different  cross sections of fluted cars. They also sell them as blank extrusions for a very low price per foot. I think it is well under $5 a foot. Anyone wanting to have  those for a metal Crusader can still get virgin parts for the body.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'd better get off of my can and order their 'sample-pack' of their bodies that they offer.. Some of the 'right' blank cars and a few Tyco Pacs would be a nice, on-going project to complete over a year or so. Make the first one , then  make 2-3 more just the same to follow over the year.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, it's a nice idea and I've had the start of the project for long enough.................

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      On Aug 22, 2009, at 4:42 AM, Gary Woodard wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Mike,
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      I have an old Mantua 4-6-2 that I did up in my Resurrecting the Dinosaurs series on youtube a couple of years ago, I used an old Bachman Vanderbilt tender, and an old Pemco boiler from a 4-8-2 that was no longer functional, my engine doesn't look the best at the moment, so maybe a redo into a nice streamlined Pacific could be in order, lets see, where did I put those old Athearn streamlined passenger cars that are junked? And that extra Mantua tender I have laying around????:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 7:32:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New project photos added.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don't worry Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                      You weren't expected to know that. I was mainly responding to Don 
                                                                                                                                                                                      about the first-seen observation.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I suspect that a good chassis today would be the Model Power 4-6-2, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      since it seems to be consistently available.

                                                                                                                                                                                      What you are reminding us of, is the best way for me to get my own 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Crusader steamer. Maybe some of us should make a winter project of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      making some streamlined superstructures this winter?? Some cast-off 
                                                                                                                                                                                      fluted passenger cars would work well for much of the locomotive and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      tender body.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Wouldn't it be nice to have some different ones made between a number 
                                                                                                                                                                                      of us. Then we go on to use the methods of making cold-cast castings 
                                                                                                                                                                                      to share the results between us. [ That's all worked out for us and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      not too hard to learn and use. ]

                                                                                                                                                                                      We can always enjoy some good free-lancing in the effort. I've long 
                                                                                                                                                                                      wanted PRR styled shark-nosed Hudsons in the lines of their 4-4-4-4 
                                                                                                                                                                                      T-1's...... as one example. They would work well for the average home 
                                                                                                                                                                                      layout without being too large of a Locomotive.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Those would work well on any 4-6-2 chassis that become 4-6-4's with a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      change of the trailing truck.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Makes me want to gather Tyco/Mantua 4-6-2's from the swap meets for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      their re-power-able drives.

                                                                                                                                                                                      For the fun of it, and my being cheap....... ..

                                                                                                                                                                                      8^)

                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                                                                                      On Aug 21, 2009, at 8:29 AM, jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Mike, Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > At the time I made the suggestion to Mantua I had almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > no exchange of information with other HO people so I didn't know if 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > it was a new or old idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The answer to my first letter came back dated Jan 29, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 1991. The main part of Mantua's answer was as follows:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > " We have considered the streamlined Pacific for the past few 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > years, but for economic reasons have not been able to justify the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > tooling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Basic tooling for a diecast or injection molded boiler is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > over & 40,000 for a "cheap" tool. This kind of expense requires a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > tremendous market demand to justify the expenditure. Our market 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > survey shows an interest, but not one large enough to payback the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > investment in a reasonable time. Hopefully the resurgence of model 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > railroading will grow in the near future that we can again develop 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > products for these great railroads "
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > This was signed by Glenn A. Woerner Quality Control 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Manager
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I responded about Bachman and plastic boilers. I received a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > second letter that they really didn't want plastic boilers nor 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > outside the US production. I just thought the responses I received 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > could be interesting and viewed as HO history.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New project photos added.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I'm sure we can date it back to Prewar, where some of the model
                                                                                                                                                                                      > makers were selling the same mech with different boilers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > It's not that it's a new idea. It's an frequently rediscovered idea
                                                                                                                                                                                      > that has been inactive for many years since we last saw it in action.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > It's still done a lot in HOn30 and On30 and has been non-stop for the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > last couple of decades. The mainline modelers just aren't getting the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > same option.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > On Aug 20, 2009, at 8:21 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > In the late 1980's Wabash Valley made a B&O "Cincinnatian" boiler
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > to fit
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > the Mantua Pacific, so it's not such a new idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > From: "Mike Bauers"
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> It's still a good idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> It would be a great cottage industry project! Might be based on a
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> different chassis today, but still would be great to see.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >> On Aug 20, 2009, at 7:09 PM, jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> Frank,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> Good luck on your project. I am not up to par on knowing the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> real train but why don't you just use the Varney Hudson drive that
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> is under the streamlined boiler remove the 4 wheel trailing truck
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> and add a Varney ,or something prototypical, trailing truck to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > it ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> I had once approached Mantua to use their Pacific drive and
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> manufacture plastic bodies of the streamlined Pennsy K-4, the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Lehigh
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> Valley John Wilkes and the Reading Crusader that would be
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> interchangable and you could buy the body you want to mount on the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> Mantua Pacific drive. ( Yes I know you might not be true to scale
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> especially driver size for all the engines ) The reply was to
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> costly. Yet it was at the time Bachman was producing all their
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> different boilers many using the same 4-8-4 frames, albeit out of
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> the country.The Mantua head engineer at that time, Glenn Woerner 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > if
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> I remember right, said they wouldn't use plastic boilers or go out
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> of the USA..
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> I thought it was a good idea
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> H
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> From: toptrain2100
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> I am kitbashing a PRR K4 streamline pacific useing the bronze 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > varney
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> hudson boiler. I will not change the bronze bolier, only add on to
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> it. I'll be makeing a PRR streamline K4 as much to pennsy 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > standards
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> as possiable. I tried a old brass mountain drive shortned from 4
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> axels to 3.It didn't work out. The mantua seams to be the best I
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> have for it. The old hudson tender is a good fit. It is just as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > wide
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> and high as the varney with drive. I will remove all rivits from 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> tender sides with the exception of the top and bottom rows. You 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > can
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> see the skirts I have made. I am now working on the Belpair 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > firebox.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> I will keep updateing this message add adding photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> Their is a new album I started for this project.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >>> frank
                                                                                                                                                                                      >





                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11503
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: questions about the B&O streamlined body
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      HH
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           I guess you saw this 
reply about the Cincinnatian body. Not a big help.  Ask Walthers 
????
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 12:14 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] questions about 
  the B&O streamlined body
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I never saw one, however I assume it was made of white metal. It was listed 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      in the Walthers catalog for several years from Wabash Valley, the same 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      people who took over the Red Ball line.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original 
  Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 
  Friday, August 21, 2009 8:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] questions about the 
  B&O streamlined body

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don, Anyone,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Yesterday you mentioned a 
  body that was made of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      streamlined B&O Cincinnatian. Was it plastic 
  or metal ? Have you ever seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                      one ? Do you have any information from the 
  company who made it ? Do you 
                                                                                                                                                                                      think any still exist ?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Am very 
  interested to find out all I can.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks Jim H 

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11504
						From: Mary Long
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: questions about the B&O streamlined body
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      No , I'd rather shoot myself in the foot . I too had Walthers catalogs for 10 years , I do not remember seeing one . Doesn't mean they weren't offered or available [?] in the analog daze of long ago the Micro feiche' that I used was chock full of unavailable/back ordered [who knows when] crap . Hmmm ? Super nice job on that scratch built RDG pacific . Really . [ Keep this under your hat , Dan is knee deep in family troubles , illness , his mom and dad , OK ??] this will explain his abscence from group ?    HH 

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sat, 8/22/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] questions about the B&O streamlined body
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Saturday, August 22, 2009, 4:21 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      HH
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           I guess you saw this reply about the Cincinnatian body. Not a big help.  Ask Walthers ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 12:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] questions about the B&O streamlined body
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I never saw one, however I assume it was made of white metal. It was listed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      in the Walthers catalog for several years from Wabash Valley, the same 
                                                                                                                                                                                      people who took over the Red Ball line.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 8:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] questions about the B&O streamlined body

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don, Anyone,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Yesterday you mentioned a body that was made of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      streamlined B&O Cincinnatian. Was it plastic or metal ? Have you ever seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                      one ? Do you have any information from the company who
 made it ? Do you 
                                                                                                                                                                                      think any still exist ?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Am very interested to find out all I can.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks Jim H 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11505
						From: Garry Spear
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Question about Varney Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm unpacking some train and came across a Varney Aerotrain.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The only window glass (plastic) is the back window of the observation and there are no signs of any other window glass.  Is this correct?  Or did the window material get lost over the years?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Garry Spear

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11506
						From: sprinthag
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Question about Varney Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Garry Spear <garrettspear@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I'm unpacking some train and came across a Varney Aerotrain.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The only window glass (plastic) is the back window of the observation and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> there are no signs of any other window glass.  Is this correct?  Or did the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> window material get lost over the years?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Garry Spear
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Both Don Dellman and myself have Areotrains with the w/s glass missing. And, being the original purchaser of same I know the part was never there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11507
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Question about Varney Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          My original Varney number # 
20  Aero Train set is the same as yours. It has a windshield in the engine 
and a back window in the Observation. No side windows. A picture in the Varney 
guide (Greenberg / Spanagel) page 76 at the top shows the same. No side 
windows.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           A possibility that 
the later copies by Bowser and Con Cor Aero Trains may have had side 
windows.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 10:18 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Question about 
  Varney Aerotrain
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm unpacking some train and came across a Varney Aerotrain.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The 
  only window glass (plastic) is the back window of the observation and there 
  are no signs of any other window glass.  Is this correct?  Or did 
  the window material get lost over the years?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Garry 
  Spear

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11508
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: unknown trailing truck
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                           A few days ago I sent 
pictures of an unknown, to me, trailing truck. Thanks to Chuck H it is no longer 
unknown
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            He found a picture 
in an album of Sean N ( Sean get off that beach and answer your mail ) entitled 
"Mantua Pre War Brass 2-8-0 Consolidation"  image 7130 showing a pre war 
Mantua trailing truck. I'm sure this is the same. Question 
answered.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11509
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Question about Varney Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      There was also a front windshield, and a headlight 
insert.   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 7:18 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Question about 
  Varney Aerotrain
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm 
  unpacking some train and came across a Varney Aerotrain.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The only 
  window glass (plastic) is the back window of the observation and there are no 
  signs of any other window glass.  Is this correct?  Or did the 
  window material get lost over the years?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Garry Spear

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.64/2318 - Release 
  Date: 08/21/09 18:06:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11510
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Varney Aero Train Windshield
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                 Time for 
a big debate and some fun. Did all the original powered factory painted Varney 
Aero Trains have a windshield in the engine or not ????   Maybe both 
ways????
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          My Varney  #  20 set 
came in the original box and has a windshield in the front of the engine. I 
looked closely at it and it sure looks like it was not someone adding it. The 
shape is a perfect fit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11511
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Question about Varney Aerotrain
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have the Bowser version, it only has the windshield and the observation 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
rear window.  The insides of the coaches is smooth so it's easy to glue flat 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
clear in yourself.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 10:06 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question about Varney Aerotrain
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    My original Varney number # 20  Aero Train set is the same as yours. It 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
has a windshield in the engine and a back window in the Observation. No side 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
windows. A picture in the Varney guide (Greenberg / Spanagel) page 76 at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
top shows the same. No side windows.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
     A possibility that the later copies by Bowser and Con Cor Aero Trains 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
may have had side windows.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                        Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  From: Garry Spear
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 10:18 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Subject: [vintageHO] Question about Varney Aerotrain
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    I'm unpacking some train and came across a Varney Aerotrain.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  The only window glass (plastic) is the back window of the observation and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
there are no signs of any other window glass.  Is this correct?  Or did the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
window material get lost over the years?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Garry Spear 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11512
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Hand made Crusader [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Home at last!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      That is really cool Jim!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Great find and addition!  Even if it was 25 years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 9:24:46 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Hand made Crusader [2 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sending these pictures of a hand made Reading Crusader that I acquired 25 years ago. It was built on a Penn Line K-4 chassis. The engine body and tender were made from some shiny metal. The fluting was made from metal strips cut from old passenger cars. The edges of the fluting were pieces of balsa wood. The "decals" were cut from cardboard. The tender and engine bodies were shaped using car body putty and I had to repair and repaint them both when I found the item. I painted it by spray can as was all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Reading blue ( as close as I could get). It even had an aerodynamic shroud that fit in the back of the tender and went over the observation car that was coupled closest to the tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           It had 5 Mantua metal fluted passenger cars (2 observations) lettered and numbered 1 to 5 . It even had a special wooden carrying case. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           This engine was passed on to one of my closest friends when I got my PL Crusader and started collecting vintage only. He lives in Boyertown and was so close to the three owners of Penn Line he was often mistaken as the fourth owner. The tales he can tell. He has the largest Penn Line collection I've ever seen. He has 7 Penn Line Crusaders alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11513
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Varney Streamlined Tender
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Frank, Bill D,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          You had discussed the Varney 
Streamlined body and the tender you used behind it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I have sent pictures 
first of my streamlined Varney body that has the four wheel trailing truck and 
stayed as a Hudson.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I have also 
sent pictures of different views of the Varney pre war 1939-1942 streamlined 
tender that was a wood and cardboard kit. It is listed as no. 767 in the 
Greenberg / Spanagel Varney Guide Page 62
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I am kind of a 
fanatic about having original items, as much as possible, in my collection. It 
is because of this I have my Varney streamlined Hudson with the Varney 
Streamlined tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           This tender was 
partly started when I got it. Whom ever stared it had cut out the frame to 
accept the swing of the trucks in what I feel looks odd. The back truck 
seems to me to be to far forward but there was nothing I could do about it. The 
only other Varney streamlined tender like mine I have seen is on the back 
cover of the Varney Guide and the trucks are shall we say even. Does anyone know 
if any real full size tender would have the "offset pattern" like  the 
trucks on my tender ?  ( And yes this Varney tender probably was not a copy 
of any item.) The tender had two versions and could use 4 wheel roller bearing 
trucks or 6 wheel Commonwealth.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            At the back of my 
tender you can see a slight difference in color. I put my finger through the 
vary brittle cardboard side when I was finishing off the tender and detail. I 
should have replaced with a different piece of cardboard but that fanatical side 
of my collecting came into play so I repaired it. When I painted it this off 
color is visible.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11514
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Hand made Crusader
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                 Glad you 
are back safe and sound. Hope you and your family had a wonderful time and got 
to unwind.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         OK it's over now. Answer your 500 
Emails and get ready to go back to work Monday refreshed and renewed. Actually 
if you had a great vacation you are going back to work to rest  
!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 12:49 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hand made 
  Crusader
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Home at last!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      That is really cool Jim!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Great find and addition!  Even if it was 25 years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 9:24:46 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Hand 
  made Crusader [2 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Sending these pictures of a hand made Reading Crusader that I acquired 25 
  years ago. It was built on a Penn Line K-4 chassis. The engine body and tender 
  were made from some shiny metal. The fluting was made from metal strips cut 
  from old passenger cars. The edges of the fluting were pieces of balsa wood. 
  The "decals" were cut from cardboard. The tender and engine bodies were shaped 
  using car body putty and I had to repair and repaint them both when I found 
  the item. I painted it by spray can as was all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Reading blue ( as close as I could get). It even 
  had an aerodynamic shroud that fit in the back of the tender and went 
  over the observation car that was coupled closest to the tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           
  It had 5 Mantua metal fluted passenger cars (2 observations) lettered and 
  numbered 1 to 5 . It even had a special wooden carrying case. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           This engine was passed 
  on to one of my closest friends when I got my PL Crusader and started 
  collecting vintage only. He lives in Boyertown and was so close to the three 
  owners of Penn Line he was often mistaken as the fourth owner. The tales he 
  can tell. He has the largest Penn Line collection I've ever seen. He has 7 
  Penn Line Crusaders alone.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
  Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11515
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: PL Crusader construction
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 



 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                        All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 I thought these comments from my good friend, Penn Line owners 
friend and Penn Line collector about the construction of the Penn Line 
Crusader might be useful and valuable. I thought the method of "fluting" 
interesting
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi 
  jim
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         In 
  answer to your question as how hard it would be to duplicate the pieces in 
  making your own “crusader “ . one must remember this was made by penn line 
  late 1947 and it was made by hand as no parts were machine made all though abe 
  and lynn were skilled mechanist some parts were cut by hand like the shrouding 
  on the sides of boiler and cab was all cut by hand probably with tin snips. As 
  I looked at the one crusader I have in kit form it would not be that much of a 
  job to make a crusader engine with todays technology and the tools that you 
  have to work with it should not be hard to do. But how many could you sell and 
  is the investment worth the money you put into it. I would say the lead boiler 
  mold would be your highest investment as this part could not be used for 
  anything else. As far as fluting the sides of engine and tender all they did 
  was to pass the pieces of aluminum ( I would use brass ) thru a jig that 
  had  knifes spaced apart just enough to indent aluminum and not cut 
  completely thru it. I know of the company that had the tooling for making the 
  shrouding tool for penn line but they no longer have the 
  tooling       I already did check this out just 
  for the history part of the penn line company.     Regards 
  bill  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11516
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New project photos added.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The reason why either the Penn Line or Mantua 4-6-2 chassis' look  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
better than others when placed under the Varney streamlined boiler is  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
that the driving wheels are 80", a wheel size common, even ubiquitous  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
in streamlined steam locomotives. The Varney drivers are 73", quite a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
bit smaller, and a size shared with only a very few streamlined  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Pacifics, and even fewer Hudsons.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Varney streamlined boiler with the Varney chassis looks distinctly  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
short-legged, whether rigged as a 4-6-2 or a 4-6-4.  It attains  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
considerable grace with the larger driving wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Okoboji, IA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11517
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Steeamlined boilers
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I did find a listing for the B&O Cincinnatian.  In the 1992 Walthers' book 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
it's Wabash Valley no. 772-4512.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
"Unpainted metal castings, woof parts where appropriate"  "includes tender 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
shell"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
$80.00
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11518
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Steeamlined boilers
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
Unless someone would have this boiler / tender set and want to sell it I am 
going to go digging and starting at Walthers. Just because it is not listed 
doesn't mean it might not be in their stock "archives". Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 1:40 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Steeamlined 
  boilers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I did find a listing for the B&O Cincinnatian. In the 1992 Walthers' 
  book 
                                                                                                                                                                                      it's Wabash Valley no. 772-4512.
                                                                                                                                                                                      "Unpainted metal castings, woof 
  parts where appropriate" "includes tender 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      shell"

                                                                                                                                                                                      $80.00

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                      Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11519
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Steeamlined boilers
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Look here to see a model being built.... With an image of the major  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
car sides as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/1293
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
AND  VIDEO OF IT UNDER STEAM !!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyoOTgqM76Q
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Aug 22, 2009, at 12:40 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I did find a listing for the B&O Cincinnatian.  In the 1992  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Walthers' book
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> it's Wabash Valley no. 772-4512.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> "Unpainted metal castings, woof parts where appropriate"  "includes  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> tender
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> shell"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> $80.00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11520
						From: Jim Waterman
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: more hand made pics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Very nice model, especially considering the 
materials and timeframe. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Whoever did this was a near-craftsman.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11521
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Steeamlined boilers
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                           Mike B,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
Just looked at all the neat pictures. I especially like the one side view of the 
tender for that P7d. It answered two of my earlier questions about the Varney 
streamlined wood and cardboard pre war tender that I sent pictures off. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        First the side view picture of the brass 
engine and tender being built has the back tender truck moved forward from where 
I would think normal so then it matches my old Varney tender and answers that 
question.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       Second I had wondered what the Varney tender 
was a copy of. I think with a very little work you could use it to create the 
tender of the B&O Cincinnatian mostly by going to 6 wheel trucks. Would you 
agree ???
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 3:26 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Steeamlined 
  boilers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Look here to see a model being built.... With an image of the major 
                                                                                                                                                                                      car 
  sides as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.trainboa rd.com/railimage s/showgallery. php/cat/1293

                                                                                                                                                                                      AND 
  VIDEO OF IT UNDER STEAM !!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=VyoOTgqM76Q

                                                                                                                                                                                      Best 
  to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                                                                                      On Aug 22, 2009, at 12:40 PM, 
  Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I did find a listing for the B&O 
  Cincinnatian. In the 1992 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Walthers' book
                                                                                                                                                                                      > it's Wabash Valley 
  no. 772-4512.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > "Unpainted metal castings, woof parts where appropriate" 
  "includes 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > tender
                                                                                                                                                                                      > shell"
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  $80.00
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11522
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: more hand made pics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Good to hear 
from you. That hand made Crusader was bought at either the Allentown or Hamburg 
train shows many years ago ( probably early 70's) by an older gentleman I knew 
by the name of Anthony "Tony" Reilly who had a brass railroad business back in 
Centralia PA (the town that had the coal fire under it and people had to leave). 
He had it in his possession for a number of years before I got it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           As I got to know Tony I 
started painting some used brass engines to improve there selling power. He gave 
me this set as payment for a number of items I did. Like I said I had it for a 
number of years and gave it to my buddy ( and you know who I mean).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           I don't know who built it 
or when but after I received it, it needed some repair work done. I 
couldn't strip it the way I wanted (balsa detail and I didn't want to replace ) 
so I painted over a lot that I could have been fixed better and smoother. I 
would have liked to seen it brand new.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 4:08 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re:more hand made 
  pics
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Very nice model, especially considering the 
  materials and timeframe. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Whoever did this was a 
  near-craftsman.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11523
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: unknown trailing truck
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I am trying.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Currently, I have 423 unread in my in-box.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 11:12:35 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] unknown trailing truck

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           A few days ago I sent pictures of an unknown, to me, trailing truck. Thanks to Chuck H it is no longer unknown
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            He found a picture in an album of Sean N ( Sean get off that beach and answer your mail ) entitled "Mantua Pre War Brass 2-8-0 Consolidation"  image 7130 showing a pre war Mantua trailing truck. I'm sure this is the same. Question answered.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11524
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Steeamlined boilers
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I just searched for a good shot of the engine and tender...........
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/0/5/2/5052.1122606960.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I think you are absolutely right about the 3-axle trucks working into  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the tender.!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Do you have access to one of the Varney Streamliners ???? I have one  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of the un-worked boilers and a Varney chassis I stumbled upon a couple  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of years ago and have been wanting to get it built and running.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Frankly, I'd rather make a few superstructures around Mantua Pacific  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
mech's and leave the original intact.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I could make some copy-stand shots with some key measurements and some  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
templates of key parts like the wrap-around pilot and streamlined  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
walkway panels to make those bodies. I could make those shots and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
measurements and pass them around.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have a couple of the Mantua Pac's I can tear down to design around.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Heck, I still have two unbuilt kits I never got far with due to my  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
dislike of them not having the axle bearings. I recently found I can  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
buy proper replacements for those frame parts and have the better  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
bearing chassis............. I do believe I'll finally assemble those  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
kits this Winter and use them for the Streamliners.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I also have one of the AHM NYC Streamlined Hudsons in the basement  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
that can be studied for ideas on some aspects of the streamlined  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
tender and engine shroud.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
One of the neat things I noted in the construction of the brass-bodied  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
model was the use of square tubing to make up the front steps.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I looked closely at the card made Varney tender and while I liked the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
streamlined top of the tender, I suspected that the top sweeps of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sides would have been open on the insides. I'll have to look at the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
metal model again, it's something I'd like for my version.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Shall we build some kit-bashes ???
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
AND......... DID YOU CATCH THE RUN-BY OF THE CHESSIE CRUSADER TRAIN IN  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
THE VIDEO AROUND 3:20 ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Aug 22, 2009, at 3:12 PM, jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      Mike B,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          Just looked at all the neat pictures. I especially like the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> one side view of the tender for that P7d. It answered two of my  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> earlier questions about the Varney streamlined wood and cardboard  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> pre war tender that I sent pictures off.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   First the side view picture of the brass engine and tender being  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> built has the back tender truck moved forward from where I would  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> think normal so then it matches my old Varney tender and answers  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that question.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  Second I had wondered what the Varney tender was a copy of. I think  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> with a very little work you could use it to create the tender of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> B&O Cincinnatian mostly by going to 6 wheel trucks. Would you  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> agree ???
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                                   Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Look here to see a model being built.... With an image of the major
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> car sides as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/1293
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> AND VIDEO OF IT UNDER STEAM !!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyoOTgqM76Q
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On Aug 22, 2009, at 12:40 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I did find a listing for the B&O Cincinnatian. In the 1992
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Walthers' book
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > it's Wabash Valley no. 772-4512.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > "Unpainted metal castings, woof parts where appropriate" "includes
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > tender
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > shell"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > $80.00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Don 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11525
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Cincinnatian
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           I started a new thread so 
people don't get mad at the length. I did watch the video. Also I sent a 
picture of my Varney Streamlined Hudson along with that early Varney streamlined 
tender to view.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          You mentioned the Rivarossi NYC 
streamlined Dreyfus Hudson you have and were going to look at it. I also have 
one but believe that the Rivarossi  Santa Fe " Blue Goose" is closer in 
style to the Cincinnatian. At least I'm sitting hear recalling that. I have the 
Blue Goose in the basement and will look closer and refresh my 
memory.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          It's odd how certain items catch 
your fancy and mine always was streamlined steam. I was a member of a Lehigh 
Valley group and had boughty a mint Overland factory painted Lehigh Valley 
" John Wilkes" that I use to run on the club layout. When I went full to 
collecting vintage only it no longer fit in my collection. I sold it and got $ 
1725 for it ( bought new for $925).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I also always wanted the New 
York Central Empire State Express ( Black and Silver ) by Rivarossi. But 
since it was made after 1975 I just passed it up.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Oh to have won that 250 million 
Lottery. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11526
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 8/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: New Videos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Its time once again for me to shamelessly promote some of my videos, today I'm not showing too much in the virtual world, although there is the Mt Union video, but rather some footage of the West Hernando Central HO model railroad at Dana's RR Supply, I ran my Prospector yesterday, also the Withlacoochee River Report, an episode of Weathering 101, and of course, some footage of OPT's............:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The Other Side of Mt Union, take a train the other direction from Little Bigsby, and its a whole new world.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Weathering 101, the Athearn covered gondola, makes for a more relistic car!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The Withlacoochee River Report, not really on top of things at the moment, but I do at least have trains running again, thats the important thing.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Running the Prospector on the West Hernando Central, thats like going from Denver to Salt Lake City via Tampa Bay!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      And finally, we get to the OPT's, as I was packing my Prospector to head home, everyone else showed up to run their trains, let alone Les having fun fixing that N&W Class A, which seems to run into all kinds of DCC problems....:o) Enjoy!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11527
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 8/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, I tested my V-1 motor that came with the Varney Economy Pacific 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I picked up.  Nothing.  I just used 3 dry D cells providing 4.5 volts 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
as a gentle nudge and no movement.  I had burnished the commutator 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and the brushes seemed to have enough tension.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So I checked across the whole motor with a VOM and got about 15 ohms, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
total.  So I have continuity but I have no idea what normal 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
resistance should read.  Magnets don't seem that strong and when I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
give the shaft/armature a spin I do not feel the magnetic fields 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
pulling intermittently during rotation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Next I guess is to put a full 6 volts across the motor and give it a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
spin at the same time.  But I'm not holding my breath.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Still glad I got it and don't want to update the motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11528
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
 Have no idea what the resistance should be on those old V-1 motors. The 
possibility of weak magnets is very strong (no pun intended). Remember those 
motors are at least 70 years old. A little fact here is that each one had a 
separate serial number stamped on the side. A little while back there was a 
discussion that took place about re-magnetizing them making them stronger. There 
was even talk about a gadget that you used. So far have not had a magnet 
problem with a number of V-1 motors although some might be on the weak side from 
age or use.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             I suggest you 
hook a transformer up to it and try to run it that way, for a short time, just 
to see if it will spin. At this point you have nothing to lose. Getting 
a better used motor or better parts like a  commutator 
( if that is the problem ) or stronger magnet could be a little pricey and 
hard to find. Then again you may get lucky. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 11:38 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney 
  prewar Pacific - my motor test
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, I tested my V-1 motor that came with the Varney Economy Pacific 
                                                                                                                                                                                      I 
  picked up. Nothing. I just used 3 dry D cells providing 4.5 volts 
                                                                                                                                                                                      as a 
  gentle nudge and no movement. I had burnished the commutator 
                                                                                                                                                                                      and the 
  brushes seemed to have enough tension.

                                                                                                                                                                                      So I checked across the whole 
  motor with a VOM and got about 15 ohms, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      total. So I have continuity but I 
  have no idea what normal 
                                                                                                                                                                                      resistance should read. Magnets don't seem that 
  strong and when I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      give the shaft/armature a spin I do not feel the 
  magnetic fields 
                                                                                                                                                                                      pulling intermittently during rotation.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Next I 
  guess is to put a full 6 volts across the motor and give it a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      spin at the 
  same time. But I'm not holding my breath.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Still glad I got it and don't 
  want to update the motor.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11529
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 8/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Are those some of the motors the Old-Timers would magnetically re- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
charge from time to time ?? That was done in that era.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Aug 24, 2009, at 10:38 PM, Dennis Thompson wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Well, I tested my V-1 motor that came with the Varney Economy Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I picked up.  Nothing.  I just used 3 dry D cells providing 4.5 volts
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> as a gentle nudge and no movement.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
.....................
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> resistance should read.  Magnets don't seem that strong and when I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> give the shaft/armature a spin I do not feel the magnetic fields
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> pulling intermittently during rotation............... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11530
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 8/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      To expand on that.........
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have one of the 1950's Bowser Challengers with the original motor.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The instructions go into detail about the need to occasionally send  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the motor back to the factory for magnetic re-charging.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
One of those 101 tip books that Kalmbach reprinted in the mid-60's  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
was a compilation of tips from the 50's and possibly earlier. At  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
least one of those outlined how to form a coil of wire and re-charge  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
motor magnets with a zap on top of a car battery. So it was a common  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
problem at one time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Aug 25, 2009, at 5:37 AM, Mike Bauers wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Are those some of the motors the Old-Timers would magnetically re-
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> charge from time to time ?? That was done in that era.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On Aug 24, 2009, at 10:38 PM, Dennis Thompson wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Well, I tested my V-1 motor that came with the Varney Economy Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I picked up.  Nothing.  I just used 3 dry D cells providing 4.5 volts
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> as a gentle nudge and no movement.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> .....................
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> resistance should read.  Magnets don't seem that strong and when I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> give the shaft/armature a spin I do not feel the magnetic fields
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> pulling intermittently during rotation............... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11531
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 8/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      > V-1 motor will not turn.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      If the fields are not shorted to the armature, and there is a clear  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
electrical path through the brushes, then the magnet is most likely  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the culprit (informally, my one V-1 has almost no discernible magnetic  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
field).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Remagnetizing is the solution, and if feasible (locating a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
remagnetizer),  it is, moreover, a dirt simple procedure for most  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
motors.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Of course, one could make an argument that if one wanted to actually  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
operate such a locomotive, simply bagging and tagging the V-1 for  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
posterity, and replacing it with a modern 12v motor would be a very  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
pragmatic solution.  Such exchanges are easily reversible; also easy  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
on the hand-wringing,  easy on enjoyment, and easy on the conscience.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Okoboji, IA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11532
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 8/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
Thanks, guys:

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I'll continue to test this motor.  Not today as wife wants to go
shopping..............

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I also have heard of re-magnetizing motor magnets long ago. 


                                                                                                                                                                                      
First, if I can determine that the motor is, "not," burned out
electrically, then I have a chance.  If it were to have been
subjected to 12V and it ruined the motor I don't know if the windings,
"go open," or go to dead or near-dead short.  Maybe
either?

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 03:32 AM 8/25/2009, you wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
               
Have no idea what the resistance should be on those old V-1 motors. The
possibility of weak magnets is very strong (no pun intended). Remember
those motors are at least 70 years old. A little fact here is that each
one had a separate serial number stamped on the side. A little while back
there was a discussion that took place about re-magnetizing them making
them stronger. There was even talk about a gadget that you used. So far
have not had a magnet problem with a number of V-1 motors although some
might be on the weak side from age or use.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
       I suggest you hook a
transformer up to it and try to run it that way, for a short time, just
to see if it will spin. At this point you have nothing to lose. Getting a
better used motor or better parts like a  commutator ( if that is
the problem ) or stronger magnet could be a little pricey and hard to
find. Then again you may get lucky. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Dennis Thompson

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      To:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 11:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor
test

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, I tested my V-1 motor that came with the Varney Economy Pacific

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I picked up. Nothing. I just used 3 dry D cells providing 4.5 volts

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      as a gentle nudge and no movement. I had burnished the commutator

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      and the brushes seemed to have enough tension.

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      So I checked across the whole motor with a VOM and got about 15 ohms,

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      total. So I have continuity but I have no idea what normal 
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      resistance should read. Magnets don't seem that strong and when I

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      give the shaft/armature a spin I do not feel the magnetic fields

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      pulling intermittently during rotation.

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Next I guess is to put a full 6 volts across the motor and give it a

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      spin at the same time. But I'm not holding my breath.

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Still glad I got it and don't want to update the motor.

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11533
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 8/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Challenger question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Good Morning:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I had seen some dialogue on Bowser Challengers recently.  Kept them, I think.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Now Mike, you dropped the Challenger word again in your note helping 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
me with my motor problem.  That brings up a question I've had sitting 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
in my mind for a few days..........
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I went to a train show two weeks ago.  A fellow working there showed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
me a new-in-box Bowser articulated he had that he was willing to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sell. (Not currently, "out for sale.")   He said $100 for it.  Green 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and white box.  When he had the lid off the box I am pretty sure I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
quickly counted six drivers sitting in the foam.  Later in the day we 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
talked about it briefly and he said it was a, "Big Boy."  (I didn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
see any 8 drivers and it would be an easy 'phone call to verify)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At the show I did not have that kind of money, (not much better now 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
either), but lately I keep thinking about it.  I'm sure there would 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
have been no super detail kit with it, so it would be a bare-bones 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
model when assembled.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Can anyone give me comments on the Challenger's unbuilt-kit value, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
difficulty in assembly, etc.  And, are they very common?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I also doubt it had a tender with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
'Kinda haunts me, but I don't want to end up in the poor house with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
all this either.............
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 03:49 AM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >To expand on that.........
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I have one of the 1950's Bowser Challengers with the original motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>The instructions go into detail about the need to occasionally send
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>the motor back to the factory for magnetic re-charging.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>One of those 101 tip books that Kalmbach reprinted in the mid-60's
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>was a compilation of tips from the 50's and possibly earlier. At
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>least one of those outlined how to form a coil of wire and re-charge
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>motor magnets with a zap on top of a car battery. So it was a common
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>problem at one time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Milwaukee Wi, USA 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11534
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 8/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Challenger question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have currently ~9 challengers in my collection in various states and one Bowser Big Boy and One complete Tenshodo Brass Big boy. I try to purchase each for under $100, however $100 or more seems to be the going rate. If in kit form, it is pretty common for them to do at least $100. If that is a good deal or not it up to you to decide. For me, no. Each of which i did purchase for no more than $100, including the Tenshodo. I had to pay a pretty penny to have it restored, but it was money well spent.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The basic superdetail kit is for the most part derived of typical UP cal-scale brass parts, with the exception being the steam pipe ends. These kits typically sell for well above what they should.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      If the challenger is complete and assembled. well with no damage, it worth easily $100 to $150 or more, depending on the level of detail.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hope this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In my eyes, passing on the $100 kit is not such a big deal, as there are alot more bargans to be had for the money.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Dennis Thompson <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:51:22 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Challenger question

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Good Morning:

                                                                                                                                                                                      I had seen some dialogue on Bowser Challengers recently. Kept them, I think.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Now Mike, you dropped the Challenger word again in your note helping 
                                                                                                                                                                                      me with my motor problem. That brings up a question I've had sitting 
                                                                                                                                                                                      in my mind for a few days........ ..

                                                                                                                                                                                      I went to a train show two weeks ago. A fellow working there showed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      me a new-in-box Bowser articulated he had that he was willing to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      sell. (Not currently, "out for sale.") He said $100 for it. Green 
                                                                                                                                                                                      and white box. When he had the lid off the box I am pretty sure I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      quickly counted six drivers sitting in the foam. Later in the day we 
                                                                                                                                                                                      talked about it briefly and he said it was a, "Big Boy." (I didn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                      see any 8 drivers and it would be an easy 'phone call to verify)

                                                                                                                                                                                      At the show I did not have that kind of money, (not much better now 
                                                                                                                                                                                      either), but lately I keep thinking about it. I'm sure there would 
                                                                                                                                                                                      have been no super detail
 kit with it, so it would be a bare-bones 
                                                                                                                                                                                      model when assembled.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Can anyone give me comments on the Challenger's unbuilt-kit value, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      difficulty in assembly, etc. And, are they very common?

                                                                                                                                                                                      I also doubt it had a tender with it.

                                                                                                                                                                                      'Kinda haunts me, but I don't want to end up in the poor house with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      all this either...... .......

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                      At 03:49 AM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                       >To expand on that........ .
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >I have one of the 1950's Bowser Challengers with the original motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >The instructions go into detail about the need to occasionally send
                                                                                                                                                                                      >the motor back to the factory for magnetic re-charging.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >One of those 101 tip books that Kalmbach reprinted in the mid-60's
                                                                                                                                                                                      >was a compilation of tips from the 50's and possibly earlier. At
                                                                                                                                                                                      >least one of those outlined how to form a coil of wire and re-charge
                                                                                                                                                                                      >motor magnets with a zap on top of a car battery. So it was a
 
                                                                                                                                                                                       common
                                                                                                                                                                                       >problem at one time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11535
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Challenger question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                             Dennis 
T,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               I 
think by the 1950's date that Mike B is mentioning he would be talking about 
the engine with the original motor sold by Bill Bowser / Redlands 
CA  not the later green and white box by Lew English /Bowser of 
Montoursville with some changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Am I right on that 
Mike   ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I can't comment much on the 
later English / Bowser Challenger as to new for my collection. Hope others can 
help but English / Bowser did sell a Big Boy kit also.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:51 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Challenger 
  question
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Good Morning:

                                                                                                                                                                                      I had seen some dialogue on Bowser Challengers 
  recently. Kept them, I think.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Now Mike, you dropped the Challenger word 
  again in your note helping 
                                                                                                                                                                                      me with my motor problem. That brings up a 
  question I've had sitting 
                                                                                                                                                                                      in my mind for a few 
  days........ ..

                                                                                                                                                                                      I went to a train show two weeks ago. A fellow 
  working there showed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      me a new-in-box Bowser articulated he had that he was 
  willing to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      sell. (Not currently, "out for sale.") He said $100 for it. 
  Green 
                                                                                                                                                                                      and white box. When he had the lid off the box I am pretty sure I 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      quickly counted six drivers sitting in the foam. Later in the day we 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      talked about it briefly and he said it was a, "Big Boy." (I didn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                      see 
  any 8 drivers and it would be an easy 'phone call to verify)

                                                                                                                                                                                      At the 
  show I did not have that kind of money, (not much better now 
                                                                                                                                                                                      either), but 
  lately I keep thinking about it. I'm sure there would 
                                                                                                                                                                                      have been no super 
  detail kit with it, so it would be a bare-bones 
                                                                                                                                                                                      model when 
  assembled.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Can anyone give me comments on the Challenger's unbuilt-kit 
  value, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      difficulty in assembly, etc. And, are they very common?

                                                                                                                                                                                      I 
  also doubt it had a tender with it.

                                                                                                                                                                                      'Kinda haunts me, but I don't want 
  to end up in the poor house with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      all this 
  either...... .......

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                      At 03:49 AM 8/25/2009, you 
  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >To expand on that........ .
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >I have one of the 
  1950's Bowser Challengers with the original motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >The instructions go 
  into detail about the need to occasionally send
                                                                                                                                                                                      >the motor back to the 
  factory for magnetic re-charging.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >One of those 101 tip books 
  that Kalmbach reprinted in the mid-60's
                                                                                                                                                                                      >was a compilation of tips from 
  the 50's and possibly earlier. At
                                                                                                                                                                                      >least one of those outlined how to 
  form a coil of wire and re-charge
                                                                                                                                                                                      >motor magnets with a zap on top of a 
  car battery. So it was a common
                                                                                                                                                                                      >problem at one 
  time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Milwaukee Wi, 
  USA

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11536
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 8/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Challenger question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I have a mint, Redlands, Bowser Challenger kit 
in my collection of Bowser and Penn Line kits. It is kit #35771 and has all 
parts sealed in original bags--including the motor in its unopened, clear bag. 
It includes the postcard for registration and a guarantee for the motor. It 
certainly is a peek into Fifties Bowser thinking with all its paper work. I 
also have the perfect and unopened Rivarossi tender that was 
produced as an individual item a few years back (no longer available) 
for people wanting their tenders for large locos. I believe the price for that 
back then was $60. I'm not really interested in divesting myself of either item, 
but I could probably be talked into it for $300 for both. The problem 
with Bowser Challengers and Big Boys--as many people know-- was the 
connection for a tender under the cab. Being rigid, the connection on 
the loco would drag the tender off the rails on any but the most gradual 
curves, and especially so in reverse where the tender would simply pop off the 
track because there was no allowance for the large swing of such a long 
locomotive. It's been interesting over the years to see what tenders people have 
used with the Challengers and Big Boys. I'm sure it's one of the many 
frustrating things that modelers have found with Bowser locos. I have done 
special work for people to accommodate tenders for Challengers and Big Boys--and 
have also done a special cab forward version of  the Bowser Challenger 
using the Kemtron kit made for that purpose. I still have that one, by the 
way, and it is pretty cool! Of course, any of that kind of custom work 
costs more than anyone wants to spend anymore on these "dinosaurs" of HO 
railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In a message dated 8/25/2009 11:19:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
jimheck@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             Dennis 
  T,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               
  I think by the 1950's date that Mike B is mentioning he would be talking about 
  the engine with the original motor sold by Bill Bowser / 
  Redlands CA  not the later green and white box by Lew English 
  /Bowser of Montoursville with some changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          Am I right on that 
  Mike   ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          I can't comment much on 
  the later English / Bowser Challenger as to new for my collection. Hope others 
  can help but English / Bowser did sell a Big Boy kit also.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:51 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Challenger 
    question
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      Good Morning:

                                                                                                                                                                                      I had seen some dialogue on Bowser Challengers 
    recently. Kept them, I think.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Now Mike, you dropped the Challenger 
    word again in your note helping 
                                                                                                                                                                                      me with my motor problem. That brings up 
    a question I've had sitting 
                                                                                                                                                                                      in my mind for a few 
    days........ ..

                                                                                                                                                                                      I went to a train show two weeks ago. A fellow 
    working there showed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      me a new-in-box Bowser articulated he had that he 
    was willing to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      sell. (Not currently, "out for sale.") He said $100 for 
    it. Green 
                                                                                                                                                                                      and white box. When he had the lid off the box I am pretty 
    sure I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      quickly counted six drivers sitting in the foam. Later in the day 
    we 
                                                                                                                                                                                      talked about it briefly and he said it was a, "Big Boy." (I didn't 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      see any 8 drivers and it would be an easy 'phone call to 
    verify)

                                                                                                                                                                                      At the show I did not have that kind of money, (not much 
    better now 
                                                                                                                                                                                      either), but lately I keep thinking about it. I'm sure there 
    would 
                                                                                                                                                                                      have been no super detail kit with it, so it would be a bare-bones 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      model when assembled.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Can anyone give me comments on the 
    Challenger's unbuilt-kit value, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      difficulty in assembly, etc. And, are 
    they very common?

                                                                                                                                                                                      I also doubt it had a tender with it.

                                                                                                                                                                                      'Kinda 
    haunts me, but I don't want to end up in the poor house with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      all this 
    either...... .......

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis

                                                                                                                                                                                      At 03:49 AM 8/25/2009, you 
    wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >To expand on that........ .
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >I have one of 
    the 1950's Bowser Challengers with the original motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >The 
    instructions go into detail about the need to occasionally send
                                                                                                                                                                                      >the 
    motor back to the factory for magnetic re-charging.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >One of 
    those 101 tip books that Kalmbach reprinted in the mid-60's
                                                                                                                                                                                      >was a 
    compilation of tips from the 50's and possibly earlier. At
                                                                                                                                                                                      >least one 
    of those outlined how to form a coil of wire and re-charge
                                                                                                                                                                                      >motor 
    magnets with a zap on top of a car battery. So it was a 
    common
                                                                                                                                                                                      >problem at one time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Mike 
    Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11537
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 8/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Avoiding an indepth discussion on how electric motors work, magnetism or magnet wire:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      As the voltage transfers via the brushes to the armature winding a magnetic field is created. The permanent magnet is of a like polarity so the armature is repelled causing a slight rotation to the next set of contacts on the commutator. Again the armature is turned slightly and the process continues until the motor is running at speed, usually quite quickly. If the permanent magnets are weak the motor might turn but never reach full speed or have any useful power. If they are very weak the armature might jerk some, but not enough to actually turn.  In some cases you might turn the armature and get it to spin some, but again without much power. There just is not enough magnetism left to cause the armature to turn. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      As for the voltage.  The armature is wound with magnet wire. Magnet wire has a very thin coating of clear insulation. The armature windings are designed for a given maximum voltage which depends on the wire gauge and number of turns it makes around the armature. As the motor runs it will generate some heat as well as rotation. That is normal and to be expected.  But if you apply more than the  design voltage the motor will heat more quickly and ultimately get much hotter. At that point there can be enough heat to actually melt the insulation thus creating a short in the windings. At this point you have essentially burned out the motor. How long it would take to burn out the motor with over volotage would depend on just how much over voltage there is and for how long it is applied. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hope that makes some sense.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Tue, 8/25/09, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Dennis Thompson <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Tuesday, August 25, 2009, 7:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks, guys:

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'll continue to test this motor.  Not today as wife wants to go shopping..............

                                                                                                                                                                                      I also have heard of re-magnetizing motor magnets long ago.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      First, if I can determine that the motor is, "not," burned out electrically, then I have a chance.  If it were to have been subjected to 12V and it ruined the motor I don't know if the windings, "go open," or go to dead or near-dead short.  Maybe either?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis




                                                                                                                                                                                      At 03:32 AM 8/25/2009, you wrote:


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Have no idea what the resistance should be on those old V-1 motors. The possibility of weak magnets is very strong (no pun intended). Remember those motors are at least 70 years old. A little fact here is that each one had a separate serial number stamped on the side. A little while back there was a discussion that took place about re-magnetizing them making them stronger. There was even talk about a gadget that you used. So far have not had a magnet problem with a number of V-1 motors although some might be on the weak side from age or use.
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                             I suggest you hook a transformer up to it and try to run it that way, for a short time, just to see if it will spin. At this point you have nothing to lose. Getting a better used
 motor or better parts like a  commutator ( if that is the problem ) or stronger magnet could be a little pricey and hard to find. Then again you may get lucky. 
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Dennis Thompson 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 11:38 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, I tested my V-1 motor that came with the Varney Economy Pacific 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I picked up. Nothing. I just used 3 dry D cells providing 4.5 volts 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      as a gentle nudge and no movement. I had burnished the commutator 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      and the brushes seemed to have enough tension.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      So I checked across the whole motor with a VOM and got about 15 ohms, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      total. So I have continuity but I have no idea what normal 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      resistance should read. Magnets don't seem that strong and when I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      give the shaft/armature a spin I do not feel the magnetic fields 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      pulling intermittently during rotation.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Next I guess is to put a full 6 volts across the motor and give it a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      spin at the same time. But I'm not holding my breath.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Still glad I got it and don't want to update the motor.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dennis


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11538
						From: erieberk
						Date: 8/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Challenger question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Good Morning Dennis,  Glad to offer you some comments on the Bowser Challenger, as for difficulty/ease of assembly, they are pretty much straightforward and no more difficult that most any other Bowser engine -- only more of it!  Bowser engines build up nicely, and I've never found them to be in a category that I'd include "difficult in assembling."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As for an unbuilt kit value, I'll start by saying that except for a period of about 10 years or so starting around 1974-75 when it was announced that this model was discontinued from production (then came back again), Lew English produced many runs of this model over the years, right up until fairly recently.  Except for the Redlands of CA models with the Bowser "Super Motor," they are not at all rare or hard to come by -- and really have little "collectors'" value as a vintage engine or as a nostalgic piece.  This doesn't take away from their market value as a decent and well-engineered model though, and one that many modelers would enjoy running on their layouts.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have about the same number of Bowser Challengers as Sean, give or take, with most of them being kits -- including two Redlands of CA kits and one built-up also by Bill Bowser.  The rest of them I've picked up over the years since I could never pass up what I felt was a bargain on them whenever I'd see one at a great price at a train show, since they were always one of my favorites.  The last one I've picked up though was back in the mid-1980's, and I doubt if I've ever paid more than $45 for one -- including those Redlands of CA kits; one of those I know I paid $35 for, so I just couldn't leave it there
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 (I've picked up other ones in various stages of assembly for between $15 and $25).  In today's market, you can expect to pay at least $100 for one, and I'm talking about any production run having the DC-71 motor right up until the most recent production (not a Redlands of CA kit), unless you run into a seller who's willing to offer one to you at around the list price one was selling for when produced 30 years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
None ever came with a tender, as far as I know.  You would need to either find an imported brass centipede tender, an AHM tender, or a Kemtron tender (kit or built).  While Lew English did make Big Boys, as I'm sure you're well aware, they are a fairly recent introduction when compared to other Bowser engines he produced.  One thing to watch for in the Big Boy (unless you don't mind this "feature") is that the first ones used two Challenger boilers spliced together at the factory -- and you can readily see the splice mark.  There's no way to eliminate it, as it's back at the firebox area with all the rivet detail.  Later Bowser Big Boys did not have that "flaw."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If you can't swing the $100 now, just know these Challengers are fairly common even though today's Bowser prices remain fairly steady -- not usually less than $100 from an established dealer/hobby store (and often more), but often enough being sold by a train show vendor for less, since it is a common engine.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Good Morning:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I had seen some dialogue on Bowser Challengers recently.  Kept them, I think.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Now Mike, you dropped the Challenger word again in your note helping 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> me with my motor problem.  That brings up a question I've had sitting 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> in my mind for a few days..........
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I went to a train show two weeks ago.  A fellow working there showed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> me a new-in-box Bowser articulated he had that he was willing to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sell. (Not currently, "out for sale.")   He said $100 for it.  Green 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and white box.  When he had the lid off the box I am pretty sure I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> quickly counted six drivers sitting in the foam.  Later in the day we 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> talked about it briefly and he said it was a, "Big Boy."  (I didn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> see any 8 drivers and it would be an easy 'phone call to verify)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> At the show I did not have that kind of money, (not much better now 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> either), but lately I keep thinking about it.  I'm sure there would 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have been no super detail kit with it, so it would be a bare-bones 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> model when assembled.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Can anyone give me comments on the Challenger's unbuilt-kit value, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> difficulty in assembly, etc.  And, are they very common?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I also doubt it had a tender with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 'Kinda haunts me, but I don't want to end up in the poor house with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> all this either.............
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> At 03:49 AM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >To expand on that.........
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >I have one of the 1950's Bowser Challengers with the original motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >The instructions go into detail about the need to occasionally send
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >the motor back to the factory for magnetic re-charging.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >One of those 101 tip books that Kalmbach reprinted in the mid-60's
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >was a compilation of tips from the 50's and possibly earlier. At
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >least one of those outlined how to form a coil of wire and re-charge
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >motor magnets with a zap on top of a car battery. So it was a common
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >problem at one time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11539
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 8/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I had a remagnetizer I built myself years ago, the trouble is I don't 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
remember exactly how it was.  It was a coil that you passed the motor 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
through, but I don't remember how big or what kind of voltage (I know it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
wasn't 120).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The big thing when I was in High School was slot cars, and rewinding your 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
own motors for higher RPM.  After rewinding, re-magnetizing was standard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
procedure.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
ANY time a motor is disassembled it needs to be remagnetized.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 5:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney prewar Pacific - my motor test
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To expand on that.........
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have one of the 1950's Bowser Challengers with the original motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The instructions go into detail about the need to occasionally send
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the motor back to the factory for magnetic re-charging.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> One of those 101 tip books that Kalmbach reprinted in the mid-60's
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> was a compilation of tips from the 50's and possibly earlier. At
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> least one of those outlined how to form a coil of wire and re-charge
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> motor magnets with a zap on top of a car battery. So it was a common
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> problem at one time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On Aug 25, 2009, at 5:37 AM, Mike Bauers wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Are those some of the motors the Old-Timers would magnetically re-
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> charge from time to time ?? That was done in that era.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> On Aug 24, 2009, at 10:38 PM, Dennis Thompson wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> Well, I tested my V-1 motor that came with the Varney Economy Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> I picked up.  Nothing.  I just used 3 dry D cells providing 4.5 volts
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> as a gentle nudge and no movement.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> .....................
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> resistance should read.  Magnets don't seem that strong and when I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> give the shaft/armature a spin I do not feel the magnetic fields
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> pulling intermittently during rotation...............
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11540
						From: Karl Peters
						Date: 8/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Motor remagnetizing.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Wasn't there an article in MR, during the seventies, about building a motor magnetize?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Would look through my collection, but it is packed up pending a move.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11541
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 8/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Remagnetizing:
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Fri, 4/10/09, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing: Was- Varney V-2 Motor help needed - it is gaulding up!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Friday, April 10, 2009, 8:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I remagnetize permanent magnet motors
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> with a hefty special purpose  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> electromagnetic device that was produced commercially
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> locally by a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> skilled modeler/tinkerer  in the 1970s, which is also
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> when I purchased  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and first used it.  Regretfully, I cannot recall who
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> made it (he did  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> not put his name on the machine or the printed directions),
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> nor can  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> anyone else. It consists of two hefty electromagnetic
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> poles, one fixed  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and one moveable between which the motor to be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> re-magnetized must be  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> placed.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To remagnetize a motor the magnet must be first placed
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> between two  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> magnetic poles so oriented that the "norths" and "souths"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of both  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> motor and remagnetizer are exactly the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> same.   This is usually easily  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> done by feel by holding the motor between the two poles of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> electromagnet and powering the electro magnetic poles at
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> very low  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> power.  Then you place the correctly oriented motor
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> between the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> electromagnetic poles again and move the  poles press
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> right up against  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the sides of the motor magnet so that there is little or no
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> space  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> between the surfaces of the electromagnets and the motor
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> magnet, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the greatest possible contact between surfaces can be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> attained.  You  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> then power the electromagnet for a specified time, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> motor  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> becomes remagnetized.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> A problem is posed when a rounded magnet (V-2, LIndsay,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> early can  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> motors) needs remagnetizing inasmuch as magnetic flux does
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> not flow  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> well through air (I am using pretty naive electrical
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> terms), and in  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> these instances the flats of the electromagnets can touch
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> tangentially  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> only small spots on the sides of the motor magnets. To
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> correct this,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> you have to artificially bulk-up these rounded motors by
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> surrounding  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> them with a bolus of  packed steel wool, or other
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> similar steel or  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> iron material.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   The beautifully made early Mashima and other make of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> can motors used  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> steel permanent magnets, not the more familiar- and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> current- ceramic  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> magnets. I successfully resuscitated two of these motors by
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> fitting  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> them inside a giant steel nut that I had successfully filed
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> out to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> size.  The flats on the side of the nut were large
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> enough such that  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> there was solid steel contact between the electromagnetic
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> poles and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the surfaces of the motor magnets.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The strength of the electromagnets are such that the user
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> would not  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> want to ever hazard powering them up without the magnets
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> being blocked  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> or completely closed. The closing pressure is of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> hand-crushing power.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I convert some of my really fine old HO power to DCC, and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> remagnetizer has made it possible in instances  to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> restore older  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> PIttman and other PM motors to such efficiency that they
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> can be safely  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> used with standard decoders.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     mailto:vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11542
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Motor remagnetizing.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      If someone knows where it is, I have it and can 
send you a copy.  I have MR complete now.   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 3:36 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Motor 
  remagnetizing.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Wasn't there an article in MR, during the seventies, about building 
        a motor magnetize?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Would look through my collection, but it is packed up pending a 
        move.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
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  www.avg.com 
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11543
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 8/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Rivarossi/ Pocher/ AHM
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 > That is kind of what i thought. I knew AHM was only the improter. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Can't remember where i had heard that though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 > Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 > Seam
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 >
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi, have missed some days of messages due to a yahoo problem - checking 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
old messages now... tried to send a message with yahoo webmail, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
aparently doesnt work... try toe regular way now:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As far as I remember, Pocher/ Italy first did all this old time 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
equipment for AHM. They did contract work for them, but were not owned 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
by AHM. Beside RR models, they also produced large, hi quality models of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
vintage automobiles, and maybe other things that now escape my mind - 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
maybe a cannon or similar.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Pocher factory then suffered a disastrous fire, never to start 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
production again. Apparently the tooling for the RR line was saved, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
was taken over by Rivarossi -- they now produced this things for AHM, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
now IHC. Much later Rivarossi was merged / taken over by LIMA (which 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
produced mainly crude toy trains previously), a company belonging to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Benetton conglomerate , and when Benetton lost interest sold to Hornby. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Since then info is confusing, apparently models are done in Asia now, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and sometimes reach Europe ... found it impossible to either order 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
models nor parts, sometimes things show up, then there is nothing for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
months.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Again for the Rivarossi/ Pocher models... a distinguishing difference 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
are the trucks of the passenger cars...those of Pocher cars had very 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
short wheelbases, the Rivarossi trucks had a longer one like all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
other clones by Bachmann and others sold today.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Just checked my "Reno" - one of the engines that survived MY attic fire 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
in 1975 ... it is marked "Pocher", got it in the early seventies... this 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
may give a hint for the time of the Rivarossi takeover.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11544
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      My friend Dave, sent me these two passenger cars recently, I got them equipped with Kadee's and they were already equipped with MDC trucks, the construction of the cars is the wood roof, floor, diecast metal ends, stamped metal sides, detail parts added, they appear to be JC Silversides kits, they are obviously kitbuilt cars, but aren't sure they are JC kits, could be Walthers I guess, but I'm not familiar with Walthers doing any shorty kits of this type, can anyone identify these cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11545
						From: sprinthag
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> My friend Dave, sent me these two passenger cars recently, I got them equipped with Kadee's and they were already equipped with MDC trucks, the construction of the cars is the wood roof, floor, diecast metal ends, stamped metal sides, detail parts added, they appear to be JC Silversides kits, they are obviously kitbuilt cars, but aren't sure they are JC kits, could be Walthers I guess, but I'm not familiar with Walthers doing any shorty kits of this type, can anyone identify these cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Ain't no way I can distinguish between a Walthers or a JC kit other than by the label but Walthers did do 60 ft. shorty's
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Saint Francis, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      
.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11546
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Quick test for Walthers vs JC (Or All Nation in 
O)  use a magnet.  Walthers are tin-plate steel, the others usually 
aluminum or other non-magnetic materials.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:38 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Can Someone Identify 
  These Passenger Cars [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      My friend Dave, sent me these two passenger cars recently, I got them 
  equipped with Kadee's and they were already equipped with MDC trucks, the 
  construction of the cars is the wood roof, floor, diecast metal 
  ends, stamped metal sides, detail parts added, they appear to be JC 
  Silversides kits, they are obviously kitbuilt cars, but aren't sure they 
  are JC kits, could be Walthers I guess, but I'm not familiar with Walthers 
  doing any shorty kits of this type, can anyone identify these cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE 
  http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's 
  two most important questions! 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.67/2326 - Release 
  Date: 08/25/09 18:07:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11547
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Gary W., Far from being an expert at these, but Walthers actually did two different lines of 60' shorty cars.  One line had typical cast white metal ends, tinplated embossed steel sides and wood roof (roof possibly plastic in the later days) and wood floor, plus the different "Pug" line which had factory assembled body shells made of tinplate sides and ends.  The "Pugs" were discussed here not too long ago, with photos by Jim H. I believe. One way to tell the regular Walthers line is to see if the cast white metal ends are attached to the floor with two screws that passed though lugs cast on the inside of each end. Many of their end castings had "Walthers" cast in tiny letters on the inside, too. W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> My friend Dave, sent me these two passenger cars recently, I got them equipped with Kadee's and they were already equipped with MDC trucks, the construction of the cars is the wood roof, floor, diecast metal ends, stamped metal sides, detail parts added, they appear to be JC Silversides kits, they are obviously kitbuilt cars, but aren't sure they are JC kits, could be Walthers I guess, but I'm not familiar with Walthers doing any shorty kits of this type, can anyone identify these cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11548
						From: Ray Hobin
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re-magnetizer.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Dellmann enlightened us:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I had a remagnetizer I built myself years ago, the trouble is I don't 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>remember exactly how it was.  It was a coil that you passed the motor 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>through, but I don't remember how big or what kind of voltage (I know it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>wasn't 120).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Some 30 or so years ago, a friend of mine made me a re-magnetizer. I may
                                                                                                                                                                                      
still have it someplace.  It consisted of two old TV choke coils, one
                                                                                                                                                                                      
labeled "N" and the other "S" which was energized via an on/off switch
                                                                                                                                                                                      
with 120 volts AC.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
However, I never was sure it worked as when energized there was no hum
                                                                                                                                                                                      
or indicator it was working.  And I was/am unable to check the strength
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of the magnets before and after being zapped. :(
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Ray Hobin
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11549
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W. And All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Correction of some information in my previous post on Walther's shorty's:  the "Pug" sides and FLOOR were pre assembled of tinplated steel, the ends were still diecast white metal with tabs.  The regular line's 60' cars had wood floors.  W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Gary W., Far from being an expert at these, but Walthers actually did two different lines of 60' shorty cars.  One line had typical cast white metal ends, tinplated embossed steel sides and wood roof (roof possibly plastic in the later days) and wood floor, plus the different "Pug" line which had factory assembled body shells made of tinplate sides and ends.  The "Pugs" were discussed here not too long ago, with photos by Jim H. I believe. One way to tell the regular Walthers line is to see if the cast white metal ends are attached to the floor with two screws that passed though lugs cast on the inside of each end. Many of their end castings had "Walthers" cast in tiny letters on the inside, too. W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > My friend Dave, sent me these two passenger cars recently, I got them equipped with Kadee's and they were already equipped with MDC trucks, the construction of the cars is the wood roof, floor, diecast metal ends, stamped metal sides, detail parts added, they appear to be JC Silversides kits, they are obviously kitbuilt cars, but aren't sure they are JC kits, could be Walthers I guess, but I'm not familiar with Walthers doing any shorty kits of this type, can anyone identify these cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11550
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay, At first glance, I thought they may have been Walthers PUG cars, but after checking the window configurations on both cars, I found that neither one was a PUG (which were 56', incidentally).  In checking these cars against JC Silversides, I don't see a match there either, and they don't match Walthers' 60' C&NW cars (#7846 & #7876) either.  Right now, I'm at a standstill on these.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11551
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Fw: [vintageHO] Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Seems like JC made N&W 60' coach and combo 
cards.   Roger Aultman
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 3:20 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger 
Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay, At first glance, I 
thought they may have been Walthers PUG cars, but after checking the window 
configurations on both cars, I found that neither one was a PUG (which were 56', 
incidentally) .  In checking these cars against JC Silversides, I don't 
see a match there either, and they don't match Walthers' 60' C&NW cars 
(#7846 & #7876) either.  Right now, I'm at a standstill on these. 
 Ray F.W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11552
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi John,,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      By the time I came of age, and could appreciate the Walthers craftsmen type kits, Walthers wasn't producing any of the 60 foot shorties that I know of, but if they did have them, thats good to know, now it can add to the confusion a little!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: sprinthag <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:51:52 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > My friend Dave, sent me these two passenger cars recently, I got them equipped with Kadee's and they were already equipped with MDC trucks, the construction of the cars is the wood roof, floor, diecast metal ends, stamped metal sides, detail parts added, they appear to be JC Silversides kits, they are obviously kitbuilt cars, but aren't sure they are JC kits, could be Walthers I guess, but I'm not familiar with Walthers doing any shorty kits of this type, can anyone identify these cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Ain't no way I can distinguish between a Walthers or a JC kit other than by the label but Walthers did do 60 ft. shorty's

                                                                                                                                                                                      John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      Saint Francis,
 WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      .


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11553
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi gj,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks, I will do that, as soon as I find a magnet that I know I've got around here somewhere!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 11:30:06 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Quick test for Walthers vs JC (Or All Nation in O)  use a magnet.  Walthers are tin-plate steel, the others usually aluminum or other non-magnetic materials.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      My friend Dave, sent me these two passenger cars recently, I got them equipped with Kadee's and they were already equipped with MDC trucks, the construction of the cars is the wood roof, floor, diecast metal ends, stamped metal sides, detail parts added, they appear to be JC Silversides kits, they are obviously kitbuilt cars, but aren't sure they are JC kits, could be Walthers I guess, but I'm not familiar with Walthers doing any shorty kits of this type, can anyone identify these cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.67/2326 - Release Date: 08/25/09 18:07:00

                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11554
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      These cars have wood floors, and wood roofs, the construction is the typical metal sides, diecast ends with wood roof and floor, the cars are nicely detailed cars worthy of restoration, might even make a Resurrecting The Dinosaurs series using these cars.........:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 3:39:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W. And All,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Correction of some information in my previous post on Walther's shorty's: the "Pug" sides and FLOOR were pre assembled of tinplated steel, the ends were still diecast white metal with tabs. The regular line's 60' cars had wood floors. W Jay W. 

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Gary W., Far from being an expert at these, but Walthers actually did two different lines of 60' shorty cars. One line had typical cast white metal ends, tinplated embossed steel sides and wood roof (roof possibly plastic in the later days) and wood floor, plus the different "Pug" line which had factory assembled body shells made of tinplate sides and ends. The "Pugs" were discussed here not too long ago, with photos by Jim H. I believe. One way to tell the
 regular Walthers line is to see if the cast white metal ends are attached to the floor with two screws that passed though lugs cast on the inside of each end. Many of their end castings had "Walthers" cast in tiny letters on the inside, too. W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > My friend Dave, sent me these two passenger cars recently, I got them equipped with Kadee's and they were already equipped with MDC trucks, the construction of the cars is the wood roof, floor, diecast metal ends, stamped metal sides, detail parts added, they appear to be JC Silversides kits, they are obviously kitbuilt cars, but aren't sure they are JC kits, could be Walthers I guess, but I'm not familiar with Walthers doing
 any shorty kits of this type, can anyone identify these cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11555
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Walthers 6646 would be the number for
the Combine kit and 6676 would be the number for the Coach.  Reference the
Passenger car plans revised second edition by Wlathers1973.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Woodard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009
9:39 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Can Someone
Identify These Passenger Cars [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      My friend Dave, sent me these two passenger cars recently, I got them
equipped with Kadee's and they were already equipped with MDC trucks, the
construction of the cars is the wood roof, floor, diecast metal
ends, stamped metal sides, detail parts added, they appear to be JC
Silversides kits, they are obviously kitbuilt cars, but aren't sure they
are JC kits, could be Walthers I guess, but I'm not familiar with Walthers
doing any shorty kits of this type, can anyone identify these cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469
to answer life's two most important questions! 
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11556
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Another tip, every Walthers car I've had has a lip on the top of the sides 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
that the roof fits into.  Also, older (pre 1959 "silver anniversary" cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
also have a lip on the bottom  that folds under the floor..  Every JC I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the sides are flat.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Gary Woodard" <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 5:11 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Hi gj,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks, I will do that, as soon as I find a magnet that I know I've got 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
around here somewhere!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
answer life's two most important questions!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 11:30:06 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Quick test for Walthers vs JC (Or All Nation in O) use a magnet. Walthers 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
are tin-plate steel, the others usually aluminum or other non-magnetic 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
materials. gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>From: Gary Woodard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Subject: [vintageHO] Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars [3 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>My friend Dave, sent me these two passenger cars recently, I got them 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>equipped with Kadee's and they were already equipped with MDC trucks, the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>construction of the cars is the wood roof, floor, diecast metal ends, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>stamped metal sides, detail parts added, they appear to be JC Silversides 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>kits, they are obviously kitbuilt cars, but aren't sure they are JC kits, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>could be Walthers I guess, but I'm not familiar with Walthers doing any 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>shorty kits of this type, can anyone identify these cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to answer life's two most important questions!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.67/2326 - Release Date: 08/25/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>18:07:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11557
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have yet to take the sides off of these cars, so haven't noticed any lips on top or bottom of sides...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:40:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Another tip, every Walthers car I've had has a lip on the top of the sides 
                                                                                                                                                                                      that the roof fits into. Also, older (pre 1959 "silver anniversary" cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                      also have a lip on the bottom that folds under the floor.. Every JC I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      the sides are flat.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                      Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/
 group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "Gary Woodard" <betsy662@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 5:11 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi gj,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks, I will do that, as soon as I find a magnet that I know I've got 
                                                                                                                                                                                      around here somewhere!

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W

                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      answer life's two most important questions!

                                                                                                                                                                                      ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 11:30:06 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars

                                                                                                                                                                                      Quick test for Walthers vs JC (Or All Nation in O) use a magnet. Walthers 
                                                                                                                                                                                      are tin-plate steel, the others usually aluminum or other non-magnetic 
                                                                                                                                                                                      materials. gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >From: Gary Woodard
                                                                                                                                                                                      >To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Subject: [vintageHO] Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars [3 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >My friend Dave, sent me these two passenger cars recently, I got them 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >equipped with Kadee's
 and they were already equipped with MDC trucks, the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >construction of the cars is the wood roof, floor, diecast metal ends, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >stamped metal sides, detail parts added, they appear to be JC Silversides 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >kits, they are obviously kitbuilt cars, but aren't sure they are JC kits, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >could be Walthers I guess, but I'm not familiar with Walthers doing any 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >shorty kits of this type, can anyone identify these cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > to answer life's two most important questions!
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      ____________ _________ _________ __

                                                                                                                                                                                      >No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      >Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.67/2326 - Release Date: 08/25/09
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >18:07:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      >


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11558
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: unknown passenger & my Pugs
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                
    I am sitting here watching the post about the unknown 
passenger cars and learning a lot. I must admit my eyes are not as good as 
others. I couldn't make out enough detail and window patterns to ID. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           I have a number of  
Walthers and JC Silversides passenger cars mint in boxes so easy to ID that way 
but didn't know about the magnet trick to help ID assembled items. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Also I don't remember ( 
brain going with eyes ) sending information and pictures about Walthers "Pug" 
passenger cars but thanks anyway W Jay W.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           To Ray F W thanks for 
stating scale of Pugs are 56'. I knew they were short but not how 
short.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           For what it's worth 
I'm sending pictures showing a complete mint set of the Walthers Pug 
passenger cars in Brunswick Green. I have an assembled partial set of Tuscan Red 
but they are used. You can see the window pattern for the Pug cars for all those 
that don't have Walthers catalogs or the Pug passenger cars. The ends are cast 
metal, the bodies pre formed and detail is pretty nice. The frame is metal with 
cast metal under belly detail parts already on. The roof is plastic. The still 
sealed bag of parts contains trucks with metal sideframes you assemble plus 
other detail parts.A decal sheet with about nine different roadnames on them 
provided also. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           These pictures might help 
to show what the Walthers Pug passenger cars looked like. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11559
						From: Russ Shiel
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: unknown passenger
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      H'lo All! Belated as usual, and only a late herring...but is anyone familiar with the early wooden kit coaches produced by Tenshodo? I know rayzef has some...Ray?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Will be back later with some recent boxcar arrivals...I think they're 00...or maybe narrow gauge S...couldn't tell from the auction photos, and advertised as HO, but sitting them beside HO cars, another animal entirely! Have to take some pics. Chrs! Russ

                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.  Get started.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11560
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Fw: [vintageHO] Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, JC did make a 60' N&W coach and combine; actually, the coach (H0-7) was cataloged as 61' and the combination (H0-8) was cataloged as 62' but that's besides the point -- and I'm not a "rivet counter."  The cars Gary presents in his photos show different window configurations.  His coach has 15 unpaired windows plus 2 isolated windows (one near each door).  His combine has 9 unpaired windows and 1 isolated window near the door.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The JC Silversides N&W coach has 17 unpaired windows plus 2 isolated windows (one near each door).  The Silversides N&W combine has 11 unpaired windows, 2 isolated windows (one near the door and one between the row of unpaired windows and the baggage door).  In addition, this car also has an isolated window on the opposite side of the baggage door, near the other end of the car.  Ray F. W,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11561
						From: jbark76
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Motor remagnetizing.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Try September 1972, pg.59.  "Motor magnets and how to charge them"...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11562
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: unknown passenger
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Russ,  If you're talking about the IMP/Tenshodo early (Old-Time) "wooden passenger car" model kits, with the factory painted metal sides, ends and wood roof and floor, I have them.  What were you about to say (or ask?) about them?  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11563
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 8/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Motor remagnetizing.- Karl/Glenn?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      jbark found the issue and year of the magazine.  (Model 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Railroader?)  Karl or Glenn said that article can be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
retrieved????   I'd love a link to find it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks to everyone for all the help and direction this is going.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Odessa/Ritzville, WA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At 09:37 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >Try September 1972, pg.59.  "Motor magnets and how to charge them"...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11564
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 8/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Tenshodo passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Russ,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
you asked about Tenshodo o/t coaches... what especially do you want to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
know? I think there were two distinctively different types, a series of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
high and stubby cars which are definitely oversize for HO ( coach, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
combine, baggage, "material handling car" - might be an RPO?) and then 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the longer ad lower coach and combine... have all, "low" ones not yet 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
assembled.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I guess they were manufactured by New One or a similar subcontractor.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the few original trucks that came with them are a horrible mess, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sideframes drilled so unexactly that axles would run at an angle... most 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
have got CV trucks now.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11565
						From: orangetrainman33
						Date: 8/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Wanted to buy
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Group Hello I am looking for some parts for a 1971 rivaroosi "BIG BOY"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the parts I need are a belland bracket Riv #P-245-004-0035, I also need the hold down bolt for the bell RIV #245-003-020. if you have these parts or a "BIG BOY" you are parting out contact me off list at
                                                                                                                                                                                      
orangetrainman33@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thank you
                                                                                                                                                                                      
George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11566
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 8/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Tenshodo passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I can confirm what I believe to be a factory assembled model of the longer, lower version of combine kit shown in your photo #5 which I acquired in a large old lot (52' from end sill to end sill, 13 windows and with side door completely offset towards one end).  The combine is partially dissassembled though, as the sides, molded of a black plastic (tenite?) have neatly warped downward at the center about 1/16 to 3/32nds of an inch.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
"New One" is cast into the back of each side.  Mine has what I assume to be the original, pedastal-style four wheel trucks, but they were assembled well and track nicely. The wheelsets have what I call the "Tenshodo-style" plastic centers on one side for insulation.  The car is equipped with one centered white pea bulb for illumination.  Factory painted with coach green sides and ends, with black (wood) roof and floor, with "Made in Japan" rubber-stamped in yellow letters on the underside.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I had not yet done any research on the car before restoring it.  I have even thought of clamping the wood roof in a jig and steaming it to match the gentle "sag" of the sides.  Not much else I can do short of finding another pair of sides!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Russ,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> you asked about Tenshodo o/t coaches... what especially do you want to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> know? I think there were two distinctively different types, a series of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> high and stubby cars which are definitely oversize for HO ( coach, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> combine, baggage, "material handling car" - might be an RPO?) and then 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the longer ad lower coach and combine... have all, "low" ones not yet 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> assembled.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I guess they were manufactured by New One or a similar subcontractor.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the few original trucks that came with them are a horrible mess, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sideframes drilled so unexactly that axles would run at an angle... most 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have got CV trucks now.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11567
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 8/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re-magnetizer.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Some 30 or so years ago, a friend of mine made me a re-magnetizer. I may
                                                                                                                                                                                      still have it someplace. It consisted of two old TV choke coils, one
                                                                                                                                                                                      labeled "N" and the other "S" which was energized via an on/off switch
                                                                                                                                                                                      with 120 volts AC.

                                                                                                                                                                                      However, I never was sure it worked as when energized there was no hum
                                                                                                                                                                                      or indicator it was working. And I was/am unable to check the strength
                                                                                                                                                                                      of the magnets before and after being zapped. :(

                                                                                                                                                                                      If  the magnet coils are held slightly apart, they should snap together when energized- extremely cautionary re: severe injury to fingers, etc., much less physical damage to the remagnetizer itself. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Most remagnetizers that I have observed (including one that I personally use) has a second low energy setting such that  as a first step, when the magnets are propped safely  apart, and are then energized, the motor to be remagnetized  can be freely  held in this low field and properly N/S oriented for the definitive second step full energy remagnetizing that is to follow. I do not see how one could do perform the second step without the reassurrence  of the first.  Perhaps using an ordinary compass would substitute?


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      Okoboji, IA 





                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11568
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 8/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Although seen at some distance, these cars seem to be typical J-C  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
silver sides  models, most probably the N&W "60 footers".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The typical clues are:  the prominent over-sized rivet detailing, the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
generous windows, and the high-crowned clearstory roof. (much  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
different than any of the Walthers iterations).   They also  just  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
"look like J-C".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
When J-C changed from embossed bristol board sides to aluminum, the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
original rivet embossing (excellent for the time, or even now) would  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
not reproduce on the aluminum, so they laid out a much higher profile  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
rivet pattern, that although not to scale, in fact was thought to look  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
better to the casual observer.  The cast lead-alloy ends had giant  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
rivet detail that was also markedly crude to boot (many modelers at  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the time replaced the J-C ends with the far better detailed and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
finished Walthers ends).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Like most J-C's, the serious modeler can still make these cars into  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
very attractive and acceptable models that can still nicely fill out a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
train that may be otherwise made up of far more sophisticated resin,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
brass, or high-quality styrene cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Walthers "pug" cars (I never heard them so referred before) were  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
all well-constructed to  1/8", rather than 3.5mm HO scale, only one of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the problems that these cars presented to serious modelers (not the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
target market!).  The nominal prototypes were the CNW's well known 60  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
footers, but the operative term was and is 'nominal'. The rivet  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
embossing on the steel sides was accurate, but was also so low profile  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
as to be virtually invisible on most painted models. The folded-under  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sides were a throw back to their first series of steel sided HO  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
passenger cars. The low roof profile was also identical to their  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
earliest models.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Okoboji, IA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11569
						From: jbark76
						Date: 8/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re-magnetizer.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I took a number of motors to a friend who has a re-magnetizer like the one described in the article.  (That's where I got a copy that I have somewhere.)  He has the N and S poles marked on the magnetizer and uses a small magnet with N and S poles marked on it to determine the polarity of the motor magnets before zapping them.  Also be aware that the two poles of the magnetizer have to be physically in contact with the motor (or use metal blocks or shims on oddly shaped motors) to provide a conductive path for the magnetic circuit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
My problem was that I couldn't locate the "choke coil" or "flyback transformer" needed to build the magnetizer.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-Jeff-
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11570
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I recall the "pug" series of cars in the fifties--one feature was a plastic 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
roof that was finished at the ends.  I cannot see them making these cars to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
1/8" scale rather than proper HO at that relatively late period.  Are we 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
talking about the same series of cars?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In any case, from what I remember of them they may have been based on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
CNW 60' cars which may have just been the commute coach and combine--then 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
designed other style cars to go with them.  (There was one car  that I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
that was correctly a 60-footer--an ATSF "Division Superintendent's car"--400 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
series--#409 was on the Yreka Western for a long time.gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 8:03 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Although seen at some distance, these cars seem to be typical J-C
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> silver sides  models, most probably the N&W "60 footers".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The typical clues are:  the prominent over-sized rivet detailing, the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> generous windows, and the high-crowned clearstory roof. (much
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> different than any of the Walthers iterations).   They also  just
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> "look like J-C".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> When J-C changed from embossed bristol board sides to aluminum, the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> original rivet embossing (excellent for the time, or even now) would
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> not reproduce on the aluminum, so they laid out a much higher profile
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> rivet pattern, that although not to scale, in fact was thought to look
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> better to the casual observer.  The cast lead-alloy ends had giant
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> rivet detail that was also markedly crude to boot (many modelers at
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the time replaced the J-C ends with the far better detailed and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> finished Walthers ends).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Like most J-C's, the serious modeler can still make these cars into
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> very attractive and acceptable models that can still nicely fill out a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> train that may be otherwise made up of far more sophisticated resin,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> brass, or high-quality styrene cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The Walthers "pug" cars (I never heard them so referred before) were
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> all well-constructed to  1/8", rather than 3.5mm HO scale, only one of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the problems that these cars presented to serious modelers (not the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> target market!).  The nominal prototypes were the CNW's well known 60
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> footers, but the operative term was and is 'nominal'. The rivet
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> embossing on the steel sides was accurate, but was also so low profile
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> as to be virtually invisible on most painted models. The folded-under
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sides were a throw back to their first series of steel sided HO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> passenger cars. The low roof profile was also identical to their
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> earliest models.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Okoboji, IA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11571
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 8/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Re-magnetizer.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "jbark76" <jbark76@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 12:25 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Re-magnetizer.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I took a number of motors to a friend who has a re-magnetizer like the one 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>described in the article.  (That's where I got a copy that I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>somewhere.)  He has the N and S poles marked on the magnetizer and uses a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>small magnet with N and S poles marked on it to determine the polarity of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>the motor magnets before zapping them.  Also be aware that the two poles of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>the magnetizer have to be physically in contact with the motor (or use 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>metal blocks or shims on oddly shaped motors) to provide a conductive path 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>for the magnetic circuit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> My problem was that I couldn't locate the "choke coil" or "flyback 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> transformer" needed to build the magnetizer.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -Jeff-
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Choke coil is easy to wind yourself, flyback transformer comes out of old 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
tube type TV sets.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11572
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 8/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Glenn Joesten writes-

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      I recall the "pug" series of cars in the fifties--one feature was a plastic 
                                                                                                                                                                                      roof that was finished at the ends. I cannot see them making these cars to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      1/8" scale rather than proper HO at that relatively late period. Are we 
                                                                                                                                                                                      talking about the same series of cars?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes. Inasmuch as the cars were built to a price, and for a perceived less sophisticated market that they felt would probably neither care nor notice, I always presumed that Walthers simply made continued use of their otherwise-obsolete-and-retired broader-line 1/8"/foot  tooling, which was in fact  not actually  retired  until well after WWII (I am away from exact-date sources, but I purchased the older smaller-scale cars new well into the early '50s).

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a number of these earlier 1/8"/ft. scale Walthers cars fully-finished and painted, and one "pug" baggage car. ALL of them have had to be significantly modified to have an acceptable true 3.5mm/ft. scale profile. The primary modifications include (but are certainly  not limited to) significantly deepening the side sills, and the replacement of the roofs with either the later  Walthers wood roofs, or with more difficulty, a roof from Northeastern. The plastic roof on the 'pug' cars had the same out of scale low profile as the earlier Walthers wood roofs.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny  

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      Okoboji, IA 





                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11573
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Can Someone Identify These Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                 I am 
again enjoying reading information about Walthers passenger cars and some of the 
latest post about "Pug" passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           The most interesting part 
is how others view certain items. As a collector of vintage items who wants said 
item as close as possible to the original and how others want to take an 
item and "change" it to suit their need and fancy. Case in point the 
discussion about how Walthers Pug passenger cars are not quite right to use for 
them without modifications..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           This shows the diversity 
in model railroading especially early vintage HO where that elusive perfect to 
scale wasn't always produced that for me as a collector doesn't 
matter.   
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            To each his 
own.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 10:21 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Can Someone 
  Identify These Passenger Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Glenn Joesten writes-
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I recall the "pug" series of cars in the 
    fifties--one feature was a plastic 
                                                                                                                                                                                      roof that was finished at the 
    ends. I cannot see them making these cars to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      1/8" scale rather than 
    proper HO at that relatively late period. Are we 
                                                                                                                                                                                      talking about the 
    same series of cars?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes. Inasmuch as the cars were built to a price, and for a 
  perceived less sophisticated market that they felt would probably neither care 
  nor notice, I always presumed that Walthers simply made continued use of their 
  otherwise-obsolete- and-retired broader-line 1/8"/foot  tooling, 
  which was in fact  not actually  retired  until well after WWII 
  (I am away from exact-date sources, but I purchased the older smaller-scale 
  cars new well into the early '50s).
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a number of these earlier 1/8"/ft. scale 
  Walthers cars fully-finished and painted, and one "pug" baggage car. ALL of 
  them have had to be significantly modified to have an acceptable true 
  3.5mm/ft. scale profile. The primary modifications include (but are certainly 
   not limited to) significantly deepening the side sills, and the 
  replacement of the roofs with either the later  Walthers wood roofs, or 
  with more difficulty, a roof from Northeastern. The plastic roof on the 'pug' 
  cars had the same out of scale low profile as the earlier Walthers wood 
  roofs.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Okoboji, IA 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  





                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11574
						From: mrrwarehouse
						Date: 8/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Heritage Red Ball Line Being Sold
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Joint announcement dated 8/29/09 has been released to magazines and our webmasters.  Red Ball machinery, tooling and parts inventory are being purchased by LaBelle Woodworking. Model Railroad Warehouse will soon announce 70th Anniversary Red Ball kits of updated open platform passenger cars and pile driver. The passenger cars will utilize styrene body parts cast in original Red Ball molds. These will be the last Red Ball kits from the 37 year period it has operated by us in Huntington and Roanoke, IN.    Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
LaBelle website: www.labellemodels.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Model RR Warehouse website is www.mrrwarehouse.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11575
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 8/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Diversity of interests
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       As a collector of vintage items who wants said item as close as possible to the original and how others want to take an item and "change" it to suit their need and fancy. Case in point the discussion about how Walthers Pug passenger cars are not quite right to use for them without modifications. .

                                                                                                                                                                                      This shows the diversity in model railroading especially early vintage HO where that elusive perfect to scale wasn't always produced that for me as a collector doesn't matter.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Every single person in this hobby does have his own take on this avocation, actually the very definition of a 'hobby'. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      My personal 'take' is as an HO *scale* operating modeler, not a collector- shelf or otherwise-  although I do indeed on a minor level  'collect' and cherish those things of interest to me. I moved to HO scale modeling and left the  O gauge (American Flyer) of my childhood behind because the latter was 'toy', and the former was 'scale'.  I hungered after accurate scale models of the real thing- and nothing in the interim has changed in this regard.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The operative word for me is *scale*, not only in appearance, detail and measurement, but also to what high level a model actually achieves operating in a scale environment.   My attraction to the older models is not  only an exercise in nostalgia (I was there, and I was active),  it is also as a very interesting intellectual appraisal of how successful early modelers and manufacturers in fact were in  actually replicating in scale the prototype. Quite a few were indeed very successful -even in retrospect-;  while many others never left the 'toy train' levels of either caricature or cartoon.

                                                                                                                                                                                       I do appreciate the latter as curiosities- I have quite a few- but I truly value the former.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The writer implicitly criticizes my alterations  of the early Walthers cars; and from my current vantage point, almost certainly I would not have entertained doing so, nor in fact gone to the trouble to actually build these out-of-scale kit models (so known at the time). Times, perceptions,  and vantage points change. That was 50 years ago, and with current available offerings, we no longer have need to make these kinds of drastic alterations, and what was considered a commodity at the time has for some become historical items currently. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Early Varney is a special interest because Gordon Varney had from day one  a great eye and penchant  for scale reproduction. I have his boxcars #'s 1 and 2 (the former documented to actually have built in 1936), and although crude in many respects, the overall effect is a car of accurate scale, which under certain circumstances can actually hold its own among the finest of current resin kit models.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      As an exercise, I have built and finished  Varney reefers #'s 1 and 5 utilizing *only* those skills, parts, or materials that would have been available to and exercised by a dedicated fine craftsman/modeler or custom builder of c. 1937/8 (it took me longer in each instance than the time taken to build one of my usual Westerfield or Sunshine resin kits!).   The results were/are more than just a little satisfying as fine scale models, and on occasion all of these  cars take places of honor in the midst of far more sophisticated operating models on the layout.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I do still alter  *historical* HO scale models that I want to see in operation, if such alteration is required for operating reliability and acceptable scale appearance. . However, for many years now, I am careful to make no changes that *cannot be undone*, and parts removed are bagged, tagged, noted and secured with the documents or box of the car or locomotive- ready for the next owner to make his or her choices. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have successfully converted  the Varney V-2 motor  in a Super Pacific to DCC, as well as a DC-60 in a Docksider. I plan to also  do so to a Taylor/Walthers Baltic 4-6-4, and a Mantua 2-6-0 (BTW, fine scale models). 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Paint I do not worry about. It is only several microns thick.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Lest readers perceive my approach to vintage HO scale models to be somewhat 'elitist', I also have been for many years an O gauge toy train collector, mainly pre-war American Flyer. I do not mix the two hobbies.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      In a few days, a small group of long time serious HO scale prototype modelers (and serious friends) from Illinois, Iowa, and Indiana will gather on my screened porch for a day of camaraderie and good eating.  What will be a major delight of the day is to once again be made aware of how very different each one of these serious modelers passionately expresses his role in what we usually think as a common  hobby. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny  

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      Okoboji, IA 





                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11576
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Diversity of interests
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                            If you feel I 
implicitly criticized your possible or real alterations to vintage items 
you sure are farther from the point that I was making. I thought I was saying 
that all people in model railroading do their own thing and nothing wrong with 
that. That was the diversity I was talking about. Scale, model, toy, collector 
we do our own thing. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: Vintage 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:35 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Diversity of 
  interests
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       As a collector of vintage items who wants said 
    item as close as possible to the original and how others want to take an 
    item and "change" it to suit their need and fancy. Case in point the 
    discussion about how Walthers Pug passenger cars are not quite right to use 
    for them without modifications. .

                                                                                                                                                                                      This shows the diversity in 
    model railroading especially early vintage HO where that elusive perfect to 
    scale wasn't always produced that for me as a collector doesn't 
    matter.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Every single person in this hobby does have his own take on 
  this avocation, actually the very definition of a 'hobby'. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      My personal 'take' is as an HO *scale* operating modeler, not a 
  collector- shelf or otherwise-  although I do indeed on a minor level 
   'collect' and cherish those things of interest to me. I moved to HO 
  scale modeling and left the  O gauge (American Flyer) of my childhood 
  behind because the latter was 'toy', and the former was 'scale'.  I 
  hungered after accurate scale models of the real thing- and nothing in the 
  interim has changed in this regard.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      The operative word for me is *scale*, not only in appearance, detail and 
  measurement, but also to what high level a model actually achieves operating 
  in a scale environment.   My attraction to the older models is not 
   only an exercise in nostalgia (I was there, and I was active),  it 
  is also as a very interesting intellectual appraisal of how successful early 
  modelers and manufacturers in fact were in  actually 
  replicating in scale the prototype. Quite a few were indeed very successful 
  -even in retrospect-;  while many others never left the 'toy train' 
  levels of either caricature or cartoon.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       I do appreciate the latter as curiosities- I have quite a few- but 
  I truly value the former.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      The writer implicitly criticizes my alterations  of the early 
  Walthers cars; and from my current vantage point, almost certainly I would not 
  have entertained doing so, nor in fact gone to the trouble to actually build 
  these out-of-scale kit models (so known at the time). Times, perceptions, 
   and vantage points change. That was 50 years ago, and with current 
  available offerings, we no longer have need to make these kinds of drastic 
  alterations, and what was considered a commodity at the time has for some 
  become historical items currently. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Early Varney is a special interest because Gordon Varney had from day one 
   a great eye and penchant  for scale reproduction. I have his 
  boxcars #'s 1 and 2 (the former documented to actually have built in 1936), 
  and although crude in many respects, the overall effect is a car of accurate 
  scale, which under certain circumstances can actually hold its own among the 
  finest of current resin kit models.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      As an exercise, I have built and finished  Varney reefers #'s 1 and 
  5 utilizing *only* those skills, parts, or materials that would have been 
  available to and exercised by a dedicated fine craftsman/modeler or custom 
  builder of c. 1937/8 (it took me longer in each instance than the time taken 
  to build one of my usual Westerfield or Sunshine resin kits!).   The 
  results were/are more than just a little satisfying as fine scale models, and 
  on occasion all of these  cars take places of honor in the midst of far 
  more sophisticated operating models on the layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I do still alter  *historical* HO scale models that I want to see in 
  operation, if such alteration is required for operating reliability and 
  acceptable scale appearance. . However, for many years now, I am careful to 
  make no changes that *cannot be undone*, and parts removed are bagged, tagged, 
  noted and secured with the documents or box of the car or locomotive- ready 
  for the next owner to make his or her choices. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I have successfully converted  the Varney V-2 motor  in a Super 
  Pacific to DCC, as well as a DC-60 in a Docksider. I plan to also  do so 
  to a Taylor/Walthers Baltic 4-6-4, and a Mantua 2-6-0 (BTW, fine scale 
  models). 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Paint I do not worry about. It is only several microns thick.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Lest readers perceive my approach to vintage HO scale models to be 
  somewhat 'elitist', I also have been for many years an O gauge toy train 
  collector, mainly pre-war American Flyer. I do not mix the two hobbies. 
   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      In a few days, a small group of long time serious HO scale prototype 
  modelers (and serious friends) from Illinois, Iowa, and Indiana will gather on 
  my screened porch for a day of camaraderie and good eating.  What will be 
  a major delight of the day is to once again be made aware of how very 
  different each one of these serious modelers passionately expresses his role 
  in what we usually think as a common  hobby. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Okoboji, IA 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  





                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11577
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: opt out
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
Due to a recent response posted to an Email I wrote where I thought I was 
saying diversity in HO model railroading is a good thing and it was taken as a 
shot at people into scale I feel it is better that I no longer post or answer 
questions. I will sit back and monitor whats posted. I will contact individuals 
with any help I can provide.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           What has transpired is a 
perfect example of why I feel if you respond to something posted the entire 
message you are responding to should be included not just some excerpts. I just 
read,and responded, to an Email that only showed part of what I had previously 
wrote. Even the last statement "To each his own " was left out. (That wasn't a 
parting shot just how I feel).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            If anyone else 
thought I was being derogatory to people who are into "scale" I'm sorry if you 
read it that way. Perhaps my English is poor but I don't think I criticized 
anyone.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           To any friends out there 
(and I think I have a few ) please feel free to contact me off site at jimheck@.... If you send to the 
site I will try to respond off site directly to you. I have always tried to 
share what little I know and will continue to do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I will not be 
the person who is put into the position of creating a problem that might destroy 
a wonderful thing, this vintage HO Yahoo group.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             To all "Happy 
Railroading" where ever your interest lie.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim Heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Shenandoah, 
PA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11578
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 8/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: opt out
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
Jim, I am going to violate the rule here and include your whole post
in my response so that if anyone reads my message they will know why I
wrote it.  I am a member of many forums.  Groups or forums are
established for the purpose of allowing each member to express their
opinion in relation to the basic purpose of the group.  This group
being vintage HO, you expressed your opinion and you are entitled to do
that.  The other writer did not read it the way you intended and he
responded with what he thought.  He may have misinterpreted your
meaning but he is entitled to do that.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I do not see either message as a threat to this group.  In such a group
there has to be room for disagreement without being disagreeable.  That
disagreement has been no reason for you to quit posting, so please do
not quit.  I do not specialize in many of the areas discussed so if it
does not fit where I am I just delete and keep going.  All of us should
do the same and still be able to enjoy what fits where we are and
disregard where we are not.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You have made some very good contributions.  Please do not stop.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thank you for your participation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
=============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               Due to a recent response
posted to an Email I wrote where I thought I was saying diversity in HO
model railroading is a good thing and it was taken as a shot at people
into scale I feel it is better that I no longer post or answer
questions. I will sit back and monitor whats posted. I will contact
individuals with any help I can provide.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           What has transpired is a
perfect example of why I feel if you respond to something posted the
entire message you are responding to should be included not just some
excerpts. I just read,and responded, to an Email that only showed part
of what I had previously wrote. Even the last statement "To each his
own " was left out. (That wasn't a parting shot just how I feel).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            If anyone else thought I was
being derogatory to people who are into "scale" I'm sorry if you read
it that way. Perhaps my English is poor but I don't think I criticized
anyone.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           To any friends out there (and I
think I have a few ) please feel free to contact me off site at jimheck@losch. net.
If you send to the site I will try to respond off site directly to you.
I have always tried to share what little I know and will continue to do
it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            I will not be the person who
is put into the position of creating a problem that might destroy a
wonderful thing, this vintage HO Yahoo group.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             To all "Happy Railroading"
where ever your interest lie.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim Heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Shenandoah,
PA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11579
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 8/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: opt out
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Holy Moly (to use a vintage phrase),
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Seems like every group (no matter how mature) ends 
up with a squabble or two along the line. Usually a case of misunderstanding or 
an extreme case of sensitivity. Beats me why anyone would give a dang in 
this group about the ancient question of scale vs toys, etc. to the point 
of getting emotional about it. Even if someone would be immature enough 
to purposely take a shot at someone about this stuff, I think it 
behooves the rest of the group to ignore it and move on.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          On a more personal note, I have no idea who 
the heck Jimheck@losch is, but I've found his 
comments to be insightful and valuable--along with questions and comments of 
others about all kinds of items. Let's not let our collective 
underwear get all twisted out of shape about anything in this group. None of 
this "I'm taking my ball and going home" crap. I think we can use any info and 
insight we can get, and the real damage to a group like this is when people 
leave who are valuable people. Sheesh!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Art Waite in beautiful Bucks County, PA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In a message dated 8/29/2009 1:22:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
jimheck@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               
  Due to a recent response posted to an Email I wrote where I thought I was 
  saying diversity in HO model railroading is a good thing and it was taken as a 
  shot at people into scale I feel it is better that I no longer post or answer 
  questions. I will sit back and monitor whats posted. I will contact 
  individuals with any help I can provide.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           What has transpired is a 
  perfect example of why I feel if you respond to something posted the 
  entire message you are responding to should be included not just some 
  excerpts. I just read,and responded, to an Email that only showed part of what 
  I had previously wrote. Even the last statement "To each his own " was left 
  out. (That wasn't a parting shot just how I feel).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            If anyone else 
  thought I was being derogatory to people who are into "scale" I'm sorry if you 
  read it that way. Perhaps my English is poor but I don't think I criticized 
  anyone.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           To any friends out there 
  (and I think I have a few ) please feel free to contact me off site at jimheck@.... If you send to the 
  site I will try to respond off site directly to you. I have always tried 
  to share what little I know and will continue to do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            I will not be 
  the person who is put into the position of creating a problem that might 
  destroy a wonderful thing, this vintage HO Yahoo group.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             To all 
  "Happy Railroading" where ever your interest lie.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
  Jim Heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Shenandoah, 
  PA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11580
						From: sprinthag
						Date: 8/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: opt out
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      OK, I am top posting here.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As some who read this and several other groups will know, I am not one to shy away from expressing my feeling on any subject if it gets my ire up. As such, I have been soundly tromped upon in several instances. Sometimes warranted, sometimes not. Point is, I consider it as part of the give and take of conversing with others. The only group I ever left due to its postings was a particular railroad historical-type group (not a part of any actual historical society) that was well into the current political goings on and had little or no interest to returning to their stated subject.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Both Danny and Jim posts are interesting and on-subject for this group and the loss of either of their continued posts would be a loss for the entire group. As such I ask Jim to refrain from refraining.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
John  Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          Due to a recent response posted to an Email I wrote where I thought I was saying diversity in HO model railroading is a good thing and it was taken as a shot at people into scale I feel it is better that I no longer post or answer questions. I will sit back and monitor whats posted. I will contact individuals with any help I can provide.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      What has transpired is a perfect example of why I feel if you respond to something posted the entire message you are responding to should be included not just some excerpts. I just read,and responded, to an Email that only showed part of what I had previously wrote. Even the last statement "To each his own " was left out. (That wasn't a parting shot just how I feel).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       If anyone else thought I was being derogatory to people who are into "scale" I'm sorry if you read it that way. Perhaps my English is poor but I don't think I criticized anyone.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      To any friends out there (and I think I have a few ) please feel free to contact me off site at jimheck@... If you send to the site I will try to respond off site directly to you. I have always tried to share what little I know and will continue to do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       I will not be the person who is put into the position of creating a problem that might destroy a wonderful thing, this vintage HO Yahoo group.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        To all "Happy Railroading" where ever your interest lie.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                                        Jim Heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                                        Shenandoah, PA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11581
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 8/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: opt out
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      One of the inherant conditions of this type of discussion is that we totaly lose the personal touch of  conversation.  There are no facial expressions, no tonal inflection.  Just words on the screen.  It is way too easy to take exception to something that was not intended to be taken that way by the other party. After all in your own ways your were each talking the diversity you spoke of in your own way. After all that is what kit-bashing is all about..taking a store bought kit and making it truly your very own.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Both of you offer way too much information to this group for either of you to take your leave.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sat, 8/29/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] opt out
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 10:20 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      





                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               Due to a recent response posted to an Email I wrote where I thought I was saying diversity in HO model railroading is a good thing and it was taken as a shot at people into scale I feel it is better that I no longer post or answer questions. I will sit back and monitor whats posted. I will contact individuals with any help I can provide.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           What has transpired is a perfect example of why I feel if you respond to something posted the entire message you are responding to should be included not just some excerpts. I just read,and responded, to an Email that only showed part of what I had previously wrote. Even the last statement "To each his own " was left out. (That wasn't a parting shot just how I feel).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            If anyone else thought I was being derogatory to people who are into "scale" I'm sorry if you read it that way. Perhaps my English is poor but I don't think I criticized anyone.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           To any friends out there (and I think I have a few ) please feel free to contact me off site at jimheck@.... If you send to the site I will try to respond off site directly to you. I have always tried to share what little I know and will continue to do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I will not be the person who is put into the position of creating a problem that might destroy a wonderful thing, this vintage HO Yahoo group.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             To all "Happy Railroading" where ever your interest lie.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Jim Heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Shenandoah, PA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

start: 0000-00-00
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11582
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 8/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: opt out
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      One of the things I love about this group is that it does NOT require a lot 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of moderating.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Once in a while though I have to put on my moderator's hat, much as I hate 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
This group is too friendly and too helpful to be split apart by 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
personalities.  I'm sure no-one had any intent of being personal in any 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
comments they may have made.  Some people are purists, and think everything 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
should be their way.  There isn't room for that here.  We all have our own 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
ways of collecting.  Some want to exactly "blueprint" the model the way it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
was originally intended by the manufacturer, others love kitbashing, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
modifying, or just having fun.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I will admit my own tastes, and the stated intention of the group if anyone 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
cares to read the home page, tends more towards the latter.  The emphasis is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
on OPERATING these old models.  When they were new modeler's added their own 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
personal touches, who's to say that the same thing done today isn't any more 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
or less "authentic".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
On the other hand, we do have people here who are collectors who want 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
everything "mint".  Well, no-one is going to take you to task for what you 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
do with your own collection.  There aren't that many pieces of "vintage" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
equipment that are all that rare anyway that a "collector" has to care that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
one less piece may have been modified.  I can probably count on the fingers 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of one hand the models that are "irreplaceable".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Everybody has their own "thing", let's please respect each other's views. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
We're here to have fun.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:20 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] opt out
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
         Due to a recent response posted to an Email I wrote where I thought 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I was saying diversity in HO model railroading is a good thing and it was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
taken as a shot at people into scale I feel it is better that I no longer 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
post or answer questions. I will sit back and monitor whats posted. I will 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
contact individuals with any help I can provide.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
     What has transpired is a perfect example of why I feel if you respond 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to something posted the entire message you are responding to should be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
included not just some excerpts. I just read,and responded, to an Email that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
only showed part of what I had previously wrote. Even the last statement "To 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
each his own " was left out. (That wasn't a parting shot just how I feel).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      If anyone else thought I was being derogatory to people who are into 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
"scale" I'm sorry if you read it that way. Perhaps my English is poor but I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don't think I criticized anyone.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
     To any friends out there (and I think I have a few ) please feel free 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to contact me off site at jimheck@.... If you send to the site I will 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
try to respond off site directly to you. I have always tried to share what 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
little I know and will continue to do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      I will not be the person who is put into the position of creating a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
problem that might destroy a wonderful thing, this vintage HO Yahoo group.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
       To all "Happy Railroading" where ever your interest lie.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                           Jim Heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                           Shenandoah, PA 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11583
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: opt out
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 10:20 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] opt out
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim--don't bail out on us.  Your remarks are 
  valuable.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      we all seem to be misunderstood by some of the 
  others on this and other forums (fora?)--I know I've had my 
share.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Please stay with us.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Glenn Joesten  glenn476   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               
  Due to a recent response posted to an Email I wrote where I thought I was 
  saying diversity in HO model railroading is a good thing and it was taken as a 
  shot at people into scale I feel it is better that I no longer post or answer 
  questions. I will sit back and monitor whats posted. I will contact 
  individuals with any help I can provide.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           What has transpired is a 
  perfect example of why I feel if you respond to something posted the 
  entire message you are responding to should be included not just some 
  excerpts. I just read,and responded, to an Email that only showed part of what 
  I had previously wrote. Even the last statement "To each his own " was left 
  out. (That wasn't a parting shot just how I feel).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            If anyone else 
  thought I was being derogatory to people who are into "scale" I'm sorry if you 
  read it that way. Perhaps my English is poor but I don't think I criticized 
  anyone.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           To any friends out there 
  (and I think I have a few ) please feel free to contact me off site at jimheck@.... If you send to the 
  site I will try to respond off site directly to you. I have always tried 
  to share what little I know and will continue to do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            I will not be 
  the person who is put into the position of creating a problem that might 
  destroy a wonderful thing, this vintage HO Yahoo group.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             To all 
  "Happy Railroading" where ever your interest lie.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
  Jim Heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Shenandoah, 
  PA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11584
						From: Walter Bayer
						Date: 8/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: opt out
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 


 
 
 
 
 


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11585
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 8/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: opt out
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hey!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Quit using "victim" mentality!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
(add smily face or other such here).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
We ALL open ourselves up to comments that may or may not be correct, may or may not be construed the way they were stated, once we enter AlGore's Internet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Personally, after decades in the old car and street rod hobby, I really like "resto rods", that LOOK like they came off the showroom floor in 1936 (or whatever), but run substantially better.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Some things I prefer "old" on the inside....like open-frame Pittmans, Flathead Ford V-8's, and Jaguar XK engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have restored enough old Half Zero and Zero Gauge pieces to KNOW how to do it BETTER than original, especially when we can see 50 years or so later what fails.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I am fairly certain that some "purists" would turn their noses up at the "fixes" I do to old gear-drive Athearn F units....but, they don't stutter at low speed anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I'm going to share something with you.....modified for general consumption.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I am Qualified Submarines.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Spent enough time on them......
                                                                                                                                                                                      
One of the "hobbies" Sub guys like is to "get" to someone.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To rile them up until they spin off into the overhead.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Once Qualified (a long, intense process), the phrase quoted, almost always, when someone tries to "get" you, is:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
"Can't get to me Mxxxxxxx Fxxxxxxx, I'm Qualified!"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So, you're qualified in life, in the hobby, in toy trains for crying out loud.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
These just happen to be more to-scale than the stuff the kiddies break into pieces.....and cost a bit more.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So, take the attitude "You can't get to ME!"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The old saying "He who dies with the most toys, wins" isn't right.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
It's really "He who dies with the most toys is dead".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don't let any of this stuff get your goat.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Stand up, shake it off, do what you do best.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Hells Bells, I USED to write reviews for print.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I figured nobody liked them, as almost all I heard were complaints for being "too hard".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
When I stopped, THEN I heard from those who actually used said reviews to direct their purchases.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
All the vast "silent majority" likes what you write.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don't read more into something than is actually there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Single Malt Scotch will generally set you mind right.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Back to watching.........
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          Due to a recent response posted to an Email I wrote where I thought I was saying diversity in HO model railroading is a good thing and it was taken as a shot at people into scale I feel it is better that I no longer post or answer questions. I will sit back and monitor whats posted. I will contact individuals with any help I can provide.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      What has transpired is a perfect example of why I feel if you respond to something posted the entire message you are responding to should be included not just some excerpts. I just read,and responded, to an Email that only showed part of what I had previously wrote. Even the last statement "To each his own " was left out. (That wasn't a parting shot just how I feel).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       If anyone else thought I was being derogatory to people who are into "scale" I'm sorry if you read it that way. Perhaps my English is poor but I don't think I criticized anyone.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      To any friends out there (and I think I have a few ) please feel free to contact me off site at jimheck@... If you send to the site I will try to respond off site directly to you. I have always tried to share what little I know and will continue to do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       I will not be the person who is put into the position of creating a problem that might destroy a wonderful thing, this vintage HO Yahoo group.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        To all "Happy Railroading" where ever your interest lie.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                                        Jim Heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                                        Shenandoah, PA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11586
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: change
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                              Due to a 
lot of sage advice and saner heads from other members and having time to 
"cool off" I have changed my mind. I guess I was being to sensitive to 
having words put in my mouth ( response to my post ) and brash in my 
decision not to actively participate on the site.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              
To all who commented THANKS. No further replies necessary. Hopefully the 
end of this thread.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim Heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11587
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 8/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: change
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Glad to hear it; 'nuff said!  Ray (F.W.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11588
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 8/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: change
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      good to hear, Jim!

                                                                                                                                                                                      So far as that Varney motor I have, I emailed you, and three days later, it came back as undeliverable. Sent it again; three days later, same thing.

                                                                                                                                                                                      email me sneubaum@... if you still want it. Anyone on the group is welcome to email me about vintage HO there if they like, too. I do enjoy talking about the old trains!

                                                                                                                                                                                      I figure the email problem might be Yahoo, so that is my other address.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sun, 8/30/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] change
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 11:36 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                              Due to a 
lot of sage advice and saner heads from other members and having time to 
"cool off" I have changed my mind. I guess I was being to sensitive to 
having words put in my mouth ( response to my post ) and brash in my 
decision not to actively participate on the site.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              
To all who commented THANKS. No further replies necessary. Hopefully the 
end of this thread.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim Heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11589
						From: Askerberg
						Date: 8/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Heritage Red Ball Line Being Sold
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
Merle,

                                                                                                                                                                                      
My thanks to you for preserving, promoting, and providing us the Red Ball
line for all these years.  I am delighted to see that it is passing
on again to another firm that has kept us supplied with great vintage
equipment.  I really look forward to that open end passenger car you
announced.  I suspect it would look great behind my Mantua
Mogul.

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Al Askerberg

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Heritage Red Ball Line Being Sold 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted by: "mrrwarehouse"

mrrwarehouse@...  
mrrwarehouse 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:02 am (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Joint announcement dated 8/29/09 has been released to magazines and
our webmasters. Red Ball machinery, tooling and parts inventory are being
purchased by LaBelle Woodworking. Model Railroad Warehouse will soon
announce 70th Anniversary Red Ball kits of updated open platform
passenger cars and pile driver. The passenger cars will utilize styrene
body parts cast in original Red Ball molds. These will be the last Red
Ball kits from the 37 year period it has operated by us in Huntington and
Roanoke, IN. Merle Rice

                                                                                                                                                                                      LaBelle website:

www.labellemodels.com 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Model RR Warehouse website is

www.mrrwarehouse.com

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11590
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 8/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Heritage Red Ball Line Being Sold
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Merle,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Away for the weekend and missed this momentous news.  Glad to hear you have reached agreement on this sale of the Red Ball Heritage line to the current owners of LaBelle, who have the proven experience of acquiring and maintaining another of our hobby's institutions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
We and the hobby owe you a huge thanks for operating Red Ball Heritage line for over half of its 70 year existence after acquiring it from Howell Day, bringinging back all the classic kits in the new gold striped red boxes and introducing quite a few new ones as well, all in the tradition of Red Ball's founder M. Dale Newton.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best wishes for continued success with your other lines at the Model Railroad Warehouse, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mrrwarehouse" <mrrwarehouse@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Joint announcement dated 8/29/09 has been released to magazines and our webmasters.  Red Ball machinery, tooling and parts inventory are being purchased by LaBelle Woodworking. Model Railroad Warehouse will soon announce 70th Anniversary Red Ball kits of updated open platform passenger cars and pile driver. The passenger cars will utilize styrene body parts cast in original Red Ball molds. These will be the last Red Ball kits from the 37 year period it has operated by us in Huntington and Roanoke, IN.    Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> LaBelle website: www.labellemodels.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Model RR Warehouse website is www.mrrwarehouse.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11591
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 8/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Red Ball Artist "Casey" Holtzinger
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Reading Merle Rice's announcement of the sale of the Red Ball Heritage Line reminded me of another recent milestone in Red Ball lore, the passing of Red Ball catalog artist Casey Holtzinger.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If you have had any experience at all with a vintage Red Ball kit or even reading a catalog, chances are you have noticed the excellent illustrations as well, that not only showed the model to its best advantage, but crossed into the category of art as well.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In the late 1940's, Red Ball founder M. Dale Newton began using the art of John Anderson, who became a Red Ball employee.  Anderson's many illustrations created a new high standard for catalog art.  Anderson's excellent die work was also evident in the massive revision to the majority of existing Red Ball kits and quite a few new ones as well.  Anderson later went to work for Kemtron and was responsible for their catalog as well, and even later was co-founder of CalScale, who's brass parts, mow manufactured by Bowser, are still used today.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
After HO scale pioneer Howell Day acquired the Red Ball line from Dale Newton in the late 1950's, he called upon two additonal artists to add to Anderson's work.  Model Railroader magazines Gil Ried provided a couple of illustartions, but many, at least nine or so were done by one "Casey" Holtzinger, first seen in catlog #11.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As that name was unfamiliar with me, about a month ago I googled his name and found that he had passed about two weeks earlier.  But what I also discovered that Casey was a noted artist who had a long career as a regional artist around coastal Virginia.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I included additional information, and links to Casey's biorgraphy and artwork in a piece I wrote that has been included as a "guest editorial" on Red Ball's website, www.mrrwarehouse.com  Look for the "Sandhouse Gossip" on the menue to the left of the home page, about 3/4 the way down, and click.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
And two examples of Casey's artwork can be found here:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.hoseeker.org/redball/redballcatalog11pg13.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
For the unitiated, "Sandhouse Gossip" is the column of Hostler Ginchel, the fictional character created by Red Ball founder Dale Newton, who has moved on with each new Red Ball owner, offering his insight into the world of Red Ball and model railroading in genereal.  Merle Rice also continued the Red ball tradition of introducing additional talented and noteworthy artist to the red ball family, too.  More on that in subsequent posts!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W.Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11593
						From: John Barlow
						Date: 8/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Heritage Red Ball Line Being Sold
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Folks,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve, the owner of LaBelle, is also an employee of the Union Pacific Railroad in Cheyenne, Wyoming. Good man to do business with.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      John Barlow

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Mon, 8/31/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Heritage Red Ball Line Being Sold
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Monday, August 31, 2009, 5:55 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Merle,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Away for the weekend and missed this momentous news. Glad to hear you have reached agreement on this sale of the Red Ball Heritage line to the current owners of LaBelle, who have the proven experience of acquiring and maintaining another of our hobby's institutions. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      We and the hobby owe you a huge thanks for operating Red Ball Heritage line for over half of its 70 year existence after acquiring it from Howell Day, bringinging back all the classic kits in the new gold striped red boxes and introducing quite a few new ones as well, all in the tradition of Red Ball's founder M. Dale Newton. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Best wishes for continued success with your other lines at the Model Railroad Warehouse, too.

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W 

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "mrrwarehouse"
 <mrrwarehouse@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Joint announcement dated 8/29/09 has been released to magazines and our webmasters. Red Ball machinery, tooling and parts inventory are being purchased by LaBelle Woodworking. Model Railroad Warehouse will soon announce 70th Anniversary Red Ball kits of updated open platform passenger cars and pile driver. The passenger cars will utilize styrene body parts cast in original Red Ball molds. These will be the last Red Ball kits from the 37 year period it has operated by us in Huntington and Roanoke, IN. Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      > LaBelle website: www.labellemodels. com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Model RR Warehouse website is www.mrrwarehouse. com
                                                                                                                                                                                      >


                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11594
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 8/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Different thoughts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don D,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                 In a 
post you made there is one area I have different 
feelings about. I'm doing what I don't 
like to do in taking two sentences out of the entire Email but feel only 
these two sentences are important to my question.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          You mentioned " There 
aren't many pieces of "vintage" equipment that are all that rare anyway that a 
"collector" has to care that one less piece may have been modified. I can 
probably count on my fingers of one hand the models that are 
irreplaceable".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           As you say everyone has 
the right to do what they like and be happy but I have to wonder what pieces you 
feel are irreplaceable ?  In MY OPINION ONLY I feel there are a little more 
then 5. I would like to state my list that I feel would be a big loss to 
the history of vintage HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           While I will probably miss 
some and you or others might not agree here is my list.   Penn Line 
Crusader, Rivarossi 4-4-2 Hiawatha, Winton 2-8-4 Berkshire and 2-6-6-6 
Allegheny, Knapp pre war 4-8-2 Mountain, ALL George Stock engines, Schrader EP-4 
and GG-1, Conover 2-10-2, Laconia Conover 4-4-0, Varney pre war electric, Varney 
Yellowstones, All pre war and post war Super Varney steam (Consolidations - 
Pacific - Mikado - Berkshire  ), Walthers 4-6-4 Baltic, Mantua pre war all 
brass Consolidation - Pacific - Atlantic,  the post war brass Atlantic - 
Pacific mostly because of the unique drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Add to this lesser known 
but highly prized items like Trackside Specialties engines including the P5a - 
0-1c - B-1 rat that had very limited production numbers of 48,20 and 
50.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Again 
these are my thoughts and opinions and not meant to upset others who might 
feel differently
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Again to each his own 
and be happy doing your own thing. but enjoy what you are 
doing.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11595
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 8/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Different thoughts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >      While I will probably miss some and you or others might not agree 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> here is my list.   Penn Line Crusader, Rivarossi 4-4-2 Hiawatha, Winton 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 2-8-4 Berkshire and 2-6-6-6 Allegheny, Knapp pre war 4-8-2 Mountain, ALL 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> George Stock engines, Schrader EP-4 and GG-1, Conover 2-10-2, Laconia 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Conover 4-4-0, Varney pre war electric, Varney Yellowstones, All pre war 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and post war Super Varney steam (Consolidations - Pacific - Mikado - 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Berkshire  ), Walthers 4-6-4 Baltic, Mantua pre war all brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Consolidation - Pacific - Atlantic,  the post war brass Atlantic - 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Pacific mostly because of the unique drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      Add to this lesser known but highly prized items like Trackside 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Specialties engines including the P5a - 0-1c - B-1 rat that had very 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> limited production numbers of 48,20 and 50.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                          If scarcity of manufacturing numbers is one of the considerations 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
then it seems we may also have to include many of the recent runs of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
brass imports which number in just the few dozens.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
People who want to share their religious views with you almost
                                                                                                                                                                                      
never want you to share yours with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11596
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 8/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Different thoughts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Rick, I know what you mean about scarcity of some recent brass items, but Don was talking about "vintage" in his post and Jim referred directly to that topic, so it looks like everything else is excluded in this discussion.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11597
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Different thoughts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I think we'd want to rule out "brass" in rarity lists since they tended to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
be relatively small numbers compared to the production runs of kits.  Within 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the range of kits, I suppose that the untouched kits would be the rarest, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
followed by professionally assembled kits, then the kits that we the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
modelers assembled ourselves--and there is a whole range of items there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
There seem to be a number of kits that tend to dominate the "unbuilt" or 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
"untouched" category.  These are the ones that we thought we'd like to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
build, but seemed to be much more than we bargained for in difficult 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
appearance.  Probably a main group of such kits are those made by Kemtron. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
How many have ever seen a Kemtron Wabash Mogul or C-16 Consolidation built 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
up and running--either in HO or O?  They're not that bad once you jump in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
with both hands--
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
When I was in the Monterey area, Allan Fenton and I used to do a lot of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
estate disposals.  I don't know how many Ambroid "One of Five Thousand" kits 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
we disposed of from the accumulations of guys who had bought them and never 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
started them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Well--I've stirred up enough for a while.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 10:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Different thoughts
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>      While I will probably miss some and you or others might not agree
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> here is my list.   Penn Line Crusader, Rivarossi 4-4-2 Hiawatha, Winton
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 2-8-4 Berkshire and 2-6-6-6 Allegheny, Knapp pre war 4-8-2 Mountain, ALL
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> George Stock engines, Schrader EP-4 and GG-1, Conover 2-10-2, Laconia
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Conover 4-4-0, Varney pre war electric, Varney Yellowstones, All pre war
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> and post war Super Varney steam (Consolidations - Pacific - Mikado -
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Berkshire  ), Walthers 4-6-4 Baltic, Mantua pre war all brass
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Consolidation - Pacific - Atlantic,  the post war brass Atlantic -
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Pacific mostly because of the unique drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>      Add to this lesser known but highly prized items like Trackside
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Specialties engines including the P5a - 0-1c - B-1 rat that had very
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> limited production numbers of 48,20 and 50.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    If scarcity of manufacturing numbers is one of the considerations
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> then it seems we may also have to include many of the recent runs of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> brass imports which number in just the few dozens.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> People who want to share their religious views with you almost
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> never want you to share yours with them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.72/2337 - Release Date: 08/31/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
05:50:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11598
						From: wildwoodjct
						Date: 8/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Mantua kits 1950s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      While we are the subject of rarity, has anybody come across at train shows or meets Mantua plastic/metal freight car kits from the 1950s? They had the Mantua loop coupler, metal underframes, plastic bodies, and metal sides for the reefer cars. They were decent models for the time. I have not seen these kits anywhere in recent years.--John
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11599
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 8/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mantua kits 1950s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      John,  I haven't been to any train meets recently, but I saw some of these metal-sided (plastic body) Mantua reefers on eBay about a month ago, so they're still around.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11600
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 8/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Different thoughts - "The List"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I read your interesting list and would like to nominate one more pre-WW-2 model as "rare vintage," the sand-cast bronze (that's what their 1940 catalog called the metal) Walthers Alco High Hood Switcher.  That bronze model was a somewhat more to scale version than the following "wide hood" diecast lead version introduced in the 1941 catalog that was very popular and was offered in some form for over 40 years through at least 1982 catalog.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don D,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            In a post you made there is one area I have different feelings about. I'm doing what I don't like to do in taking two sentences out of the entire Email but feel only these two sentences are important to my question.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     You mentioned " There aren't many pieces of "vintage" equipment that are all that rare anyway that a "collector" has to care that one less piece may have been modified. I can probably count on my fingers of one hand the models that are irreplaceable".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      As you say everyone has the right to do what they like and be happy but I have to wonder what pieces you feel are irreplaceable ?  In MY OPINION ONLY I feel there are a little more then 5. I would like to state my list that I feel would be a big loss to the history of vintage HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      While I will probably miss some and you or others might not agree here is my list.   Penn Line Crusader, Rivarossi 4-4-2 Hiawatha, Winton 2-8-4 Berkshire and 2-6-6-6 Allegheny, Knapp pre war 4-8-2 Mountain, ALL George Stock engines, Schrader EP-4 and GG-1, Conover 2-10-2, Laconia Conover 4-4-0, Varney pre war electric, Varney Yellowstones, All pre war and post war Super Varney steam (Consolidations - Pacific - Mikado - Berkshire  ), Walthers 4-6-4 Baltic, Mantua pre war all brass Consolidation - Pacific - Atlantic,  the post war brass Atlantic - Pacific mostly because of the unique drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      Add to this lesser known but highly prized items like Trackside Specialties engines including the P5a - 0-1c - B-1 rat that had very limited production numbers of 48,20 and 50.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Again these are my thoughts and opinions and not meant to upset others who might feel differently
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      Again to each his own and be happy doing your own thing. but enjoy what you are doing.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11601
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 8/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Different thoughts - "The List"
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      "Sand-cast Bronze" means that initially a high-quality master pattern is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
made, often in wood.  This is embedded in a mixture of very fine sand and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
oil. The finer the sand, the better the detail that will pick up.  I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
some examples--including one of a hundred sets of castings by Saginaw (The 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
steering gear division of GM) for  a PRR G-5s 4-6-0 in O Scale--yes--I built 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
it--I also have a lump of bronze in the general appearance of a GG-1--it is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
supposed to be HO, might be OO--hard to tell
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 6:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Different thoughts - "The List"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I read your interesting list and would like to nominate one more pre-WW-2 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> model as "rare vintage," the sand-cast bronze (that's what their 1940 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> catalog called the metal) Walthers Alco High Hood Switcher.  That bronze 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> model was a somewhat more to scale version than the following "wide hood" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> diecast lead version introduced in the 1941 catalog that was very popular 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and was offered in some form for over 40 years through at least 1982 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> catalog.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Don D,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>            In a post you made there is one area I have different feelings 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> about. I'm doing what I don't like to do in taking two sentences out of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> the entire Email but feel only these two sentences are important to my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> question.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>     You mentioned " There aren't many pieces of "vintage" equipment that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> are all that rare anyway that a "collector" has to care that one less 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> piece may have been modified. I can probably count on my fingers of one 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> hand the models that are irreplaceable".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>      As you say everyone has the right to do what they like and be happy 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> but I have to wonder what pieces you feel are irreplaceable ?  In MY 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> OPINION ONLY I feel there are a little more then 5. I would like to state 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> my list that I feel would be a big loss to the history of vintage HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>      While I will probably miss some and you or others might not agree 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> here is my list.   Penn Line Crusader, Rivarossi 4-4-2 Hiawatha, Winton 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 2-8-4 Berkshire and 2-6-6-6 Allegheny, Knapp pre war 4-8-2 Mountain, ALL 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> George Stock engines, Schrader EP-4 and GG-1, Conover 2-10-2, Laconia 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Conover 4-4-0, Varney pre war electric, Varney Yellowstones, All pre war 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> and post war Super Varney steam (Consolidations - Pacific - Mikado - 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Berkshire  ), Walthers 4-6-4 Baltic, Mantua pre war all brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Consolidation - Pacific - Atlantic,  the post war brass Atlantic - 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Pacific mostly because of the unique drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>      Add to this lesser known but highly prized items like Trackside 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Specialties engines including the P5a - 0-1c - B-1 rat that had very 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> limited production numbers of 48,20 and 50.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>       Again these are my thoughts and opinions and not meant to upset 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> others who might feel differently
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>      Again to each his own and be happy doing your own thing. but enjoy 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> what you are doing.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.72/2337 - Release Date: 08/31/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
05:50:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11602
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 8/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mantua kits 1950s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have some of these built kits that I'm trying to sell ... I'll photograph 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and upload tomorrow to the photos section.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 6:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua kits 1950s
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> While we are the subject of rarity, has anybody come across at train shows 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> or meets Mantua plastic/metal freight car kits from the 1950s? They had 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the Mantua loop coupler, metal underframes, plastic bodies, and metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sides for the reefer cars. They were decent models for the time. I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> not seen these kits anywhere in recent years.--John
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11603
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Could be the same
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Glenn,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              Sending 
you a picture of a glob of sand cast bronze made into a GG-1 look that might be 
the same thing you have. Two friends from Calif each have one but there is one 
little difference in them. This pictured item has no end doors cast into it but 
the second one does. The manufacturer of them is unknown to either owner but 
both think OO scale.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             I actually saw 
a similar body on Ebay a good while back and was going to buy it just to find 
out what I was and who made it but other things were more 
important.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Also along the 
way the name Jacques (hope spelled right) has been mentioned as producing the 
first full size GG-1. Not sure if just a body or more. Don't know anything else 
about this possible item and have never seen anything in print.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              W Jay 
W   You are really good at finding out facts. Do you have any 
record of that name? It might have been around the pre war / post war time 
frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              Anyone 
else ever heard the name Jacques associated with HO or other size 
trains
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11604
						From: docles1
						Date: 9/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mantua kits 1950s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The series of the six reefers was recently on ebay though built up. The opening bid was $30.00 and I don't believe it got any takers.  Les Morris
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> While we are the subject of rarity, has anybody come across at train shows or meets Mantua plastic/metal freight car kits from the 1950s? They had the Mantua loop coupler, metal underframes, plastic bodies, and metal sides for the reefer cars. They were decent models for the time. I have not seen these kits anywhere in recent years.--John
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11605
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Could be the same
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Do not know of the Jacques name off-hand, but will give it a try.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Glenn,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         Sending you a picture of a glob of sand cast bronze made into a GG-1 look that might be the same thing you have. Two friends from Calif each have one but there is one little difference in them. This pictured item has no end doors cast into it but the second one does. The manufacturer of them is unknown to either owner but both think OO scale.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        I actually saw a similar body on Ebay a good while back and was going to buy it just to find out what I was and who made it but other things were more important.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        Also along the way the name Jacques (hope spelled right) has been mentioned as producing the first full size GG-1. Not sure if just a body or more. Don't know anything else about this possible item and have never seen anything in print.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         W Jay W   You are really good at finding out facts. Do you have any record of that name? It might have been around the pre war / post war time frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         Anyone else ever heard the name Jacques associated with HO or other size trains
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11606
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: searching for parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                       I am still looking to find the larger pre war Mantua 6 
volt motor that was used in the pre war Consolidation - Atlantic and Pacifics. 
Also need the lead or pilot truck. As a last resort I can make this but would 
like the original.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Since there are a 
number of new members I thought I would ask again. Contact me off site at jimheck@... is you would have any of 
these parts for sale.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Also I need a couple of small 
parts for this same engine. I don't even know what they might be called. 
Possibly a spacer, washer, bushing  or bearing that is used when attaching 
the main and side rods to the drivers. These items are actually threaded inside 
unlike later Mantua parts that just usedc washers and spacers. I have never seen 
this set up on any other engine including other Mantua. Hope this description is 
helpful. The plans / part sheet I have for this engine have no part numbers 
(at least that I can find).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11607
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Could be the same [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      be the GG-1 that I have--mine doesn't have all the 
countersunk holes--and it does have sideframes--I think it was by 
Barr-Nixon??  will have to look for it.  A few years back I did a 
clinic at PCR on "Model Railroading in the Bronze Age".
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Still, my best "Bronze" loco is the O Scale Saginaw 
G5s. I had to make 3 tries at the chassis before I got it to run well--including 
new side rods.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 5:02 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Could be the same [1 
  Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Glenn,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             
   Sending you a picture of a glob of sand cast bronze made into a GG-1 
  look that might be the same thing you have. Two friends from Calif each have 
  one but there is one little difference in them. This pictured item has no end 
  doors cast into it but the second one does. The manufacturer of them is 
  unknown to either owner but both think OO scale.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             I actually 
  saw a similar body on Ebay a good while back and was going to buy it just to 
  find out what I was and who made it but other things were more 
  important.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             Also along 
  the way the name Jacques (hope spelled right) has been mentioned as producing 
  the first full size GG-1. Not sure if just a body or more. Don't know anything 
  else about this possible item and have never seen anything in 
  print.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              W Jay 
  W   You are really good at finding out facts. Do you have any 
  record of that name? It might have been around the pre war / post war time 
  frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              Anyone 
  else ever heard the name Jacques associated with HO or other size 
  trains
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.73/2338 - Release 
  Date: 08/31/09 17:52:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11608
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: JaquesnotJaques information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               I 
have further researched the name Jaques not Jacques. The man / company was A B 
Jaques (proper spelling) 1936-1938  HO bronze castings kit for a 
streamlined P5a which I know as a P5 modified. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          This item is the oldest HO 
production electric type locomotive made.This is from Lenahan's Locomotive 
Lexicon Volume I  Page 63 top. I guess it was made before the Varney number 
410 streamlined electric which is pictured in the middle of the same 
page .
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           I had thought it was a 
GG-1 but my feeble brain had poor recall. I would feel this would be a rare 
vintage piece if found ??
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11609
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Could be the same
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I recall an "F. L. Jaques" or some such initials  who was an illustrator of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
nature books--there was a piece in MR about his railroad--he was using some 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
odd scale using American Flyer S Gauge equipment as a beginning.  Name was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
pronounced "Jay-kweez"gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 6:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Could be the same
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Jim H,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Do not know of the Jacques name off-hand, but will give it a try.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Hi Glenn,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>         Sending you a picture of a glob of sand cast bronze made into a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> GG-1 look that might be the same thing you have. Two friends from Calif 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> each have one but there is one little difference in them. This pictured 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> item has no end doors cast into it but the second one does. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> manufacturer of them is unknown to either owner but both think OO scale.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>        I actually saw a similar body on Ebay a good while back and was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> going to buy it just to find out what I was and who made it but other 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> things were more important.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>        Also along the way the name Jacques (hope spelled right) has been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> mentioned as producing the first full size GG-1. Not sure if just a body 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> or more. Don't know anything else about this possible item and have never 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> seen anything in print.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>         W Jay W   You are really good at finding out facts. Do you have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> any record of that name? It might have been around the pre war / post war 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> time frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>         Anyone else ever heard the name Jacques associated with HO or 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> other size trains
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.73/2338 - Release Date: 08/31/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
17:52:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11610
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 9/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mantua kits 1950s
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I've uploaded the photos of the Mantua kits. They are in folder "Steve's 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Stuff". They are "car-01a" through "car-13c". The a & b are the two sides 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and the c is the end.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Steve W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 11:18 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua kits 1950s
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I have some of these built kits that I'm trying to sell ... I'll photograph
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and upload tomorrow to the photos section.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 6:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua kits 1950s
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> While we are the subject of rarity, has anybody come across at train 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> shows
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> or meets Mantua plastic/metal freight car kits from the 1950s? They had
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> the Mantua loop coupler, metal underframes, plastic bodies, and metal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> sides for the reefer cars. They were decent models for the time. I have
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> not seen these kits anywhere in recent years.--John
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11611
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Could be the same
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                          Glenn ,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
According to the owner and who sent the picture the countersunk holes were added 
after the fact by someone altering it. He also says the prior owner has cut 
out two window post, one on each side, and apparently the side bottoms. Jeff 
R, the owner from California but not a member, said hard to tell what the 
original was due to a past owner modifying it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Your thought about Barr 
Nixon intrigues me. I only know of two items by Barr Nixon and one of those only 
got to the production of one prototype model (from the little I know). The other 
item was the brass kit of an FM diesel  ( type I can't remember off hand 
and to lazy to walk a flight of steps to get it) that was made by Barr Nixon, 
sold one year and then Sampson bought it out and sold it under their name but I 
don'tknow how long. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I had never heard of 
a Barr Nixon GG-1 but that doesn't mean there wasn't one (NEVER SAY NEVER). 
Interesting if you have any further info about that
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Last I don't know if you 
can send me a picture off site at jimheck@... but would love to see that 
Bronze O scale Saginaw G-5
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  Glenn476 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 12:30 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Could be the 
  same
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      be the GG-1 that I have--mine doesn't have all 
  the countersunk holes--and it does have sideframes-- I think it was by 
  Barr-Nixon??  will have to look for it.  A few years back I did a 
  clinic at PCR on "Model Railroading in the Bronze Age".
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Still, my best "Bronze" loco is the O Scale 
  Saginaw G5s. I had to make 3 tries at the chassis before I got it to run 
  well--including new side rods.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 5:02 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Could be the same 
    [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Glenn,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                             
     Sending you a picture of a glob of sand cast bronze made into a GG-1 
    look that might be the same thing you have. Two friends from Calif each have 
    one but there is one little difference in them. This pictured item has no 
    end doors cast into it but the second one does. The manufacturer of them is 
    unknown to either owner but both think OO scale.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                             I actually 
    saw a similar body on Ebay a good while back and was going to buy it just to 
    find out what I was and who made it but other things were more 
    important.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                             Also along 
    the way the name Jacques (hope spelled right) has been mentioned as 
    producing the first full size GG-1. Not sure if just a body or more. Don't 
    know anything else about this possible item and have never seen anything in 
    print.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                              W 
    Jay W   You are really good at finding out facts. Do you have 
    any record of that name? It might have been around the pre war / post war 
    time frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                              
    Anyone else ever heard the name Jacques associated with HO or other size 
    trains
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      

    

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
    www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.73/2338 - Release 
    Date: 08/31/09 17:52:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11612
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: latest project
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                             Pictures are 
my latest rebuilding project thanks to an item I bought from Sean N. This is a 
Mantua pre war Consolidation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I have the main parts back 
together and will be adding detail after redoing some of the piping on the 
engine boiler. This will be left unpainted to show the material and how it was 
constructed.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11613
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 9/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: latest project [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Looks great! Almost makes me jealous since i am not retired and not having time to play with my own projects.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Yet, I am in no way willing to wish what great times I have ahead away. I guess for that ereason, I can wait until I have time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Looks great Jim. If I can find anything else to help you out, i will.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Cc: a69mustang4me@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2009 12:29:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] latest project [3 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Pictures are my latest rebuilding project thanks to an item I bought from Sean N. This is a Mantua pre war Consolidation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I have the main parts back together and will be adding detail after redoing some of the piping on the engine boiler. This will be left unpainted to show the material and how it was constructed.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim H

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11614
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: unknown GG-1
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Glenn,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                 While 
I'm starting to believe the unknown GG-1 you have is a cottage industry item or 
someones attempt at casting I am sending you pictures of 3 GG-1's that were sold 
to the public. First    brass George Stock. Two   brass 
Schrader  Last   cast metal FAMOCO ( but your are right they made 
brass first). Thought maybe some detail in the pictures might help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           I have gone back to my 
information to search. Nothing appears in the Lenahans Locomotive Lexicons 
Vol   I & II that is different from full-size Stock, Schrader or 
FAMOCO except the shorter version by Penn Line,Varney,Bowser and Lifelike plus 
the Japanese copy that all used the same pattern / design.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         I am searching for an 
article written by a friend about FAMOCO GG-1's. I'm pretty sure it listed 
cast brass GG-1 body in O and HO as first run before the cast. Sometimes to 
much info to search. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         The name Adams & Sons was a 
primary casting company of cast metal , brass and aluminum for many early HO 
companies including Varney, Dallas Model Craft, H J Garret and sons (GARCO) who 
both I and Ray F W feel was involved deeper then just providing cast parts. 
Maybe they had something to do with your body
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         We may never know who made the 
item but will have fun trying.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11615
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: latest project [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Nice looking loco.  I have one--built by the 
late Richard Stokes--he had a picture of one of his locos  on a train on an 
MR cover back in 1943.  He was one of the G&D Operators group.  
When he passed away I got the Consolidation and a Pacific from his estate.  
Both had been "SP-ized"--the Pacific has a Vanderbilt tender, the Consol has a 
rectangular oil tender--straight top rather than the raised sides yours 
has.  Both are screwed down in glass cases.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 9:29 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] latest project [3 
  Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             Pictures are 
  my latest rebuilding project thanks to an item I bought from Sean N. This is a 
  Mantua pre war Consolidation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          I have the main parts back 
  together and will be adding detail after redoing some of the piping on the 
  engine boiler. This will be left unpainted to show the material and how it was 
  constructed.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.75/2341 - Release 
  Date: 09/02/09 05:50:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11616
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: unknown GG-1 [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      the one I have is not like any of the three you 
sent.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 9:56 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] unknown GG-1 [3 
  Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Glenn,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 While 
  I'm starting to believe the unknown GG-1 you have is a cottage industry item 
  or someones attempt at casting I am sending you pictures of 3 GG-1's that were 
  sold to the public. First    brass George Stock. Two  
   brass Schrader  Last   cast metal FAMOCO ( but your are 
  right they made brass first). Thought maybe some detail in the pictures might 
  help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           I have gone back to my 
  information to search. Nothing appears in the Lenahans Locomotive Lexicons 
  Vol   I & II that is different from full-size Stock, Schrader or 
  FAMOCO except the shorter version by Penn Line,Varney,Bowser and Lifelike plus 
  the Japanese copy that all used the same pattern / design.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         I am searching for an 
  article written by a friend about FAMOCO GG-1's. I'm pretty sure it 
  listed cast brass GG-1 body in O and HO as first run before the cast. 
  Sometimes to much info to search. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         The name Adams & Sons was a 
  primary casting company of cast metal , brass and aluminum for many early HO 
  companies including Varney, Dallas Model Craft, H J Garret and sons (GARCO) 
  who both I and Ray F W feel was involved deeper then just providing cast 
  parts. Maybe they had something to do with your body
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         We may never know who made the 
  item but will have fun trying.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.75/2341 - Release 
  Date: 09/02/09 05:50:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11617
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 9/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: latest project [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      It does look nice.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, September 02,
2009 12:29 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Cc: a69mustang4me@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] latest
project [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
Pictures are my latest rebuilding project thanks to an item I bought from Sean
N. This is a Mantua 
pre war Consolidation.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                          I have the main parts back together and
will be adding detail after redoing some of the piping on the engine boiler.
This will be left unpainted to show the material and how it was constructed.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11618
						From: raymarinaccio
						Date: 9/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: bolster height of Varney 6 wheel tender trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      When exactly did Varney change the bolster height on their 6 wheel tender trucks?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11619
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 9/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Old magazines on Ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      This is a shameless plug for items I have listed. Starting price is one penny. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Item # 190331974397 - 50 ISSUES of 1950's - Model Railroader & RMC
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Item # 190331975448 -  8 issues of 1948 Railroad Model Craftsman
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As I get time, I will be listing some 1940's MR issues.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11620
						From: Garry Spear
						Date: 9/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: More Old magazines on Ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      13 Issues "THE MODEL RAILWAY NEWS" - May '37/Nov. '38
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
English Magazine, from the J. H. Gissel (of MR fame) Estate.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150369616778
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Forget Starting Price!  If interested make an offer and we'll go from there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Garry Spear
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11621
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: find
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I recently came across a batch of older HO 
streamline passenger cars--five SP Daylight cars--four are M.B. Austin 
apparently brass with corrugated sides,Obs. and 2 coaches are 72', baggage is 
58',  one is a shorty smoothside coach. 60 ' , apparently 
American Beauty .    All have trucks with X2f couplers Talgo 
mounted.  If anyone is interested in these please contact 
me off-list                glenn476@... 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I also have a batch of fiber-tie, brass rail flex 
track I'll give to anyone who wants to pay the postage on it.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      glenn
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11622
						From: shentonw@bellsouth.net
						Date: 9/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: WTB - Rivarossi 4-4-0 Reno light bulb
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I want to buy Rivarossi P/N P-160-034 light bulb for Reno steam engine. Please contact me off-line if you have part or know of a source.  Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11623
						From: Thomas Parsons
						Date: 9/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: More Old magazines on Ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      My offer is $5.00 + shipping. I really don't know how to price them. Tom Parsons

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Fri, 9/4/09, Garry Spear <garrettspear@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Garry Spear <garrettspear@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More Old magazines on Ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Friday, September 4, 2009, 11:07 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      13 Issues "THE MODEL RAILWAY NEWS" - May '37/Nov. '38

                                                                                                                                                                                      English Magazine, from the J. H. Gissel (of MR fame) Estate.

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=15036961677 8

                                                                                                                                                                                      Forget Starting Price! If interested make an offer and we'll go from there.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Garry Spear

                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11624
						From: Thomas Parsons
						Date: 9/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Old magazines on Ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I am not an ebay member but I am interested in purchasing the MR and RMC magazines. Is there some way we can work this  out?   Tom Parsons 

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Fri, 9/4/09, nvrr49@... <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: nvrr49@... <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Old magazines on Ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Friday, September 4, 2009, 5:17 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      This is a shameless plug for items I have listed. Starting price is one penny. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Item # 190331974397 - 50 ISSUES of 1950's - Model Railroader & RMC

                                                                                                                                                                                      Item # 190331975448 - 8 issues of 1948 Railroad Model Craftsman

                                                                                                                                                                                      As I get time, I will be listing some 1940's MR issues.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                      Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11625
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 9/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Old magazines on Ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent, Do you accept payments other than PayPal?  Thanks,  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11626
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 9/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Old magazines on Ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sure, anything but credit cards is fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent, Do you accept payments other than PayPal?  Thanks,  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11627
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 9/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: WTB - Rivarossi 4-4-0 Reno light bulb
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
I checked my parts supply.  I do not have it.  Sorry.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
===============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
shentonw@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I want to buy Rivarossi P/N P-160-034 light bulb for Reno steam
engine. Please contact me off-line if you have part or know of a
source. Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11628
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: information wanted
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                               
 I am searching for some information concerning the Walthers Pre War 4-6-4 
Baltic. The other night I lost out on the bidding for one, in great shape 
but no tender, on Ebay   220472918167. ( The pictures I'm sending 
have been altered to better show the detail then the Ebay listing ). Did someone 
from this site happen to be the winner who maybe can answer this when they 
receive the engine ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         There seems to be very little 
paperwork that I have found, assembly or parts sheets, other then pictures in 
Walthers catalogs. I have a 1946 catalog that shows it. In an effort to track 
down specific information about this engine I am wondering if any members can 
provide.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         The engine was originally designed and 
built by a Mr. Taylor  who had something to do with Walthers ( I think ). 
 Walthers then started selling it as a kit under their name. It has now 
been suggested to me that it originally used a Varney motor. Also that maybe 
Varney drivers and even a total Varney frame which I had never heard 
before.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         I must thank Sean N for bidding for me 
as I don't use Pay Pal. Even though I know he would have liked to have this 
engine it goes to show how good a friend and fellow collector he is.  
Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         Any information on this Walthers 
Baltic will be appreciated. If by some chance someone has one to sell contact me 
off site.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11629
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: information wanted
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
On Wednsday, I will make copies (access to excellent copier then) of the Baltic Pages from the much more detailed Walthers Catalog pages from 1938, 1940, -41, -42 which give much more information than the postwar catalogs.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The 1938 Catalog states specifically, "The Varney motor is now standard equipmet." And it is clearly shown in an accompanying photo.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In the forward Walthers refers to their entire HO line as the "Taylor-Made Line" (pg.1.) as well as on a supplemental price sheet dated September 1, 1938, as "Taylor-Made models."  On page four, Walthers calls the early versions of his famous passenger cars, "Taylor-Made passenger cars" and on page eight, labels the freight cars, "Taylor-Made freight cars."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It is my understanding that when Frank Tayor not only sold his lines to Walthers, he became an employee at the same time. He later became editor at Model Railroader later in the 1940s.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Will mail those copies out Wednesday afternoon.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>           I am searching for some information concerning the Walthers Pre War 4-6-4 Baltic. The other night I lost out on the bidding for one, in great shape but no tender, on Ebay   220472918167. ( The pictures I'm sending have been altered to better show the detail then the Ebay listing ). Did someone from this site happen to be the winner who maybe can answer this when they receive the engine ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    There seems to be very little paperwork that I have found, assembly or parts sheets, other then pictures in Walthers catalogs. I have a 1946 catalog that shows it. In an effort to track down specific information about this engine I am wondering if any members can provide.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    The engine was originally designed and built by a Mr. Taylor  who had something to do with Walthers ( I think ).  Walthers then started selling it as a kit under their name. It has now been suggested to me that it originally used a Varney motor. Also that maybe Varney drivers and even a total Varney frame which I had never heard before.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    I must thank Sean N for bidding for me as I don't use Pay Pal. Even though I know he would have liked to have this engine it goes to show how good a friend and fellow collector he is.  Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Any information on this Walthers Baltic will be appreciated. If by some chance someone has one to sell contact me off site.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11630
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 9/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: information wanted [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim,  Yes, despite the fact that the Baltic is found in Walthers 1946 catalog (I note it in the H0 Gauge -- 0 Gauge catalog on page H-3), their plans for producing it post-War fell through, as I know you're aware.  Their pre-War H0 Gauge (only) catalogs that display it for sale, and include Dimensions Specs for it, clearly and specifically state that the motor is a Varney.  They list the drivers as being 23 mm.  When I match that up with the Varney 72" drivers, that measurement coincides with the full width (including the flanges) of Varney's drivers, however, I believe Varney's measurement of a scale 72" is the diameter of the actual size of the drivers only (from one edge of the rim to the opposite edge of the rim -- or "tire" as in prototypical jargon --excluding the flange. I don't know what Walthers' measurement supposed to include.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In any case. directly under the Baltic's specs is a list of Locomotive Parts.  These 23 mm. diameter drivers are described as "Made of Tenite with turned brass rim and hub."  By this, even though the size matches Varney's 72" drivers if they (Varney's) were to be measured to include the flanges,for Walthers' purpose, they obviously are not Varney -- although, it would appear as though Varney drivers could possibly be substituted for them by the modeler.  Ray F. W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11631
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: information wanted [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H and Ray F.W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The only information I can add at this point is that the Tenite plastic centered drivers seem to have been introduced in the 1940 catalog, "Drivers for our Baltic (23 m.m. diam.) are now being made in a new way..." and it goes on to say in several sentences how the Tenite plastic is molded in place, inside of the rim.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In regard to the frame, the 1938 Catalog refers to it being cast of bronze, and notes the "...addition of the ashpan to the main frame casting..."  No seperate photo of the frame, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Jim,  Yes, despite the fact that the Baltic is found in Walthers 1946 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> catalog (I note it in the H0 Gauge -- 0 Gauge catalog on page H-3), their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> plans for producing it post-War fell through, as I know you're aware.  Their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> pre-War H0 Gauge (only) catalogs that display it for sale, and include 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dimensions Specs for it, clearly and specifically state that the motor is a Varney.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> They list the drivers as being 23 mm.  When I match that up with the Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 72" drivers, that measurement coincides with the full width (including the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> flanges) of Varney's drivers, however, I believe Varney's measurement of a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> scale 72" is the diameter of the actual size of the drivers only (from one 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> edge of the rim to the opposite edge of the rim -- or "tire" as in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> prototypical jargon --excluding the flange. I don't know what Walthers' measurement 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> supposed to include.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> In any case. directly under the Baltic's specs is a list of Locomotive 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Parts.  These 23 mm. diameter drivers are described as "Made of Tenite with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> turned brass rim and hub."  By this, even though the size matches Varney's 72" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> drivers if they (Varney's) were to be measured to include the flanges,for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Walthers' purpose, they obviously are not Varney -- although, it would appear 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> as though Varney drivers could possibly be substituted for them by the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> modeler.  Ray F. W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11632
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: information wanted
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 11:50 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: information 
  wanted
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H and Ray F.W.,

                                                                                                                                                                                      The only information I can add at this point 
  is that the Tenite plastic centered drivers seem to have been introduced in 
  the 1940 catalog, "Drivers for our Baltic (23 m.m. diam.) are now being made 
  in a new way..." and it goes on to say in several sentences how the Tenite 
  plastic is molded in place, inside of the rim.

                                                                                                                                                                                      In regard to the frame, 
  the 1938 Catalog refers to it being cast of bronze, and notes the "...addition 
  of the ashpan to the main frame casting..." No seperate photo of the frame, 
  though.

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Jim, Yes, despite the fact that the 
  Baltic is found in Walthers 1946 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > catalog (I note it in the H0 Gauge 
  -- 0 Gauge catalog on page H-3), their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > plans for producing it 
  post-War fell through, as I know you're aware. Their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > pre-War H0 Gauge 
  (only) catalogs that display it for sale, and include 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Dimensions 
  Specs for it, clearly and specifically state that the motor is a Varney. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > They list the drivers as being 23 mm. When I match that up with the 
  Varney 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 72" drivers, that measurement coincides with the full width 
  (including the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > flanges) of Varney's drivers, however, I believe 
  Varney's measurement of a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > scale 72" is the diameter of the actual 
  size of the drivers only (from one 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > edge of the rim to the opposite 
  edge of the rim -- or "tire" as in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > prototypical jargon --excluding 
  the flange. I don't know what Walthers' measurement 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > supposed to 
  include.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > In any case. directly under the Baltic's specs is a 
  list of Locomotive 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Parts. These 23 mm. diameter drivers are described 
  as "Made of Tenite with 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > turned brass rim and hub." By this, even 
  though the size matches Varney's 72" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > drivers if they (Varney's) were 
  to be measured to include the flanges,for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Walthers' purpose, they 
  obviously are not Varney -- although, it would appear 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > as though 
  Varney drivers could possibly be substituted for them by the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > modeler. 
  Ray F. W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11633
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Walthers info
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         I will appreciate very much those pre 
war copies of information about the Walther's Baltic. Do you have my address 
???
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11634
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Walthers info
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H., Yes, I have it from a few months back when I sent you the Lindsay "Stubby" information.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    I will appreciate very much those pre war copies of information about the Walther's Baltic. Do you have my address ???
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                                                Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11635
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 9/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: information wanted [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, Keep in mind, when searching for a Taylor/Walthers Baltic (unless you don't mind a possible permanent shelf display only), that these engines were offered in both two-rail and three-rail versions -- the same as any other pre-War engines of the time.  It may be very tempting to jump on the first Baltic you see, shelling out $500 or so, but of little use except as a display model if it's for three-rail operation (unless you plan to install that third rail).  If it were me, I know I'd prefer to be able to run it, but I know too that it would be excrucionarily hard to pass one up if it turned out to be for three rail operation.  It might appear that it was at the time when the Tenite drivers were introduced, that the two-rail versions came out, since they would have the needed insulation.  Prior to that time, the drivers wouldn't need insulation when running via 3-rail.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11636
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: information wanted
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                               
Didn't know they came in 2 and 3 rail versions. While I would definitely 
like to have the 2 rail so I could run it I would not pass up the 3 rail 
version. Adding what in effect would be a shelf model not the worst thing for 
me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          As a collector of vintage items 
first, but building a new platform to run them, I want three major specific 
pieces to add to my HO collection. The Walthers Baltic is one of them. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I feel there will not be 
many available to buy so I would like to at least have one. Due to a very 
limited amount of these produced, much less then the Penn Line Crusader, and 
since there are few sales transactions not many know the importance of this 
engine to HO vintage history. Actually I'm started to think that my best chance 
will be one labeled wrong or in the worked needed to basket case variety. And as 
more learn about this engine being out there make less chances to find one. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks as usual for the 
responses to my question.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:11 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] information 
  wanted
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, Keep in mind, when 
  searching for a Taylor/Walthers Baltic (unless you don't mind a possible 
  permanent shelf display only), that these engines were offered in both 
  two-rail and three-rail versions -- the same as any other pre-War engines of 
  the time.  It may be very tempting to jump on the first Baltic you see, 
  shelling out $500 or so, but of little use except as a display model if it's 
  for three-rail operation (unless you plan to install that third rail). 
   If it were me, I know I'd prefer to be able to run it, but I know too 
  that it would be excrucionarily hard to pass one up if it turned out to be for 
  three rail operation.  It might appear that it was at the time when the 
  Tenite drivers were introduced, that the two-rail versions came out, since 
  they would have the needed insulation.  Prior to that time, the drivers 
  wouldn't need insulation when running via 3-rail.  Ray F.W. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11637
						From: dlw455
						Date: 9/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Atheran Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Group
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Metal tank cars there are 15 different groups from A501 to A515.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
My question is how many different numbers did each group have ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have over 60 tank cars with no duplicate numbers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jay in Pa.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11638
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 9/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Walthers Taylor-Baltic 4-6-4. Was: information wanted
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      My Baltic is currently not accessible. Also, I have not looked at it  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
for some time, so I cannot be authoritative.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Varney drivers on the Baltic would have looked terrible, and it would  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
be questionable whether or not the locomotive could or would have been  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
able to function so "squatted-down". The Baltic drivers are nominally  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
80" drivers, and they look like 80".  The Varney drivers are 72"-  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
visibly quite a bit smaller- a different animal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If memory serves, the Tenite drivers were not successful; they were  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
easily broken, and the Tenite over time shrunk enough to not retain  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the driver tires in place. Just how the Tenite was electrically  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
bridged, if in fact these drivers were used on the powered side, I  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
have no idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The model in my possession came into my hands in about 1967. It has  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
well-used  cast-bright-metal-centered 80" spoked drivers.  I have not  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the slightest idea at the moment  whether or not in fact they are  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
"original", but have always presumed that they were.  Now, could these  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
drivers actually be early Penn Line replacements?  They would have fit  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
quite nicely, and also would have been quite accurate as to appearance  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and scale. H-mmm.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
To my knowledge, the Taylor Baltic was the very first American  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
commercially available HO locomotive kit (no others have yet  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
surfaced).  It was a sophisticated model made to pretty accurate  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
scale,  relatively expensive for the time, and it required modeling  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
skills, that although infinitely more common among modelers than would  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
be now,were probably still above that of many potential customers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
A definitive article authored by kit designer Frank Taylor on  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
constructing/assembling this kit model is  in  January 1936 issues of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
MODEL CRAFTSMAN. This article followed directly on the heels of an MR  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Walthers ad in Nov or Dec 1935 announcing that Walthers had purchased  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
both the model, and Taylor's services.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Varney apparently also tried 72" Tenite drivers. Several were on a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
1936-built  scratch-built brass 4-6-0 given to me in the early fifties  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
by the builder. All were broken. Although my memory is hazy, I seem to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
recall that the VArney  drivers may have had integral cast  Tenite  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
tires. Fortunately, new Varney drivers were easy retrofits.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Okoboji, IA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11639
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: information wanted: Walthers MILW Baltic
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H., Ray F.W. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The 1938 catalog adds some information on the 2 rail and 3 rail versions.  "When supplied for two rail operation, the wheels are insulated by a special process developed by ourselves" but does not specifically identify the process.  However, under the heading that appears lower on the 1938 catalog page titled "Conversion Kit for HO Baltic Locomotives" it lists a kit which included a set of insulated wheelsets for pilot, trailing and tender trucks as well as the drivers, and states the wheels are insulated on one side and at the axle.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
That would seem to me to be different from the inherent insulation of the Tenite plastic centered drivers seemingly first mentioned in the 1940 catalog. (Hope to find 1939 and 1937 catalogs or copies soon!)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
But Jim, you can read the pages in full context when you get them and see if you agree.   Ray, I will gladly make a set of copies for you at the same time if you want.  And I hope to either get my scanner working or get a new one soon, as HOSeeker should have these brief catalogs on view for all.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I suspect that with all of the running changes Walthers talks about in the catalog listings like "early motor vs. Varney motor" and frame later including ash pan; plus the several different 2 and 3 rail versions and low production, that no two models found will be exactly alike and I agree that although I'd like two rail if I were in the market for one of these beauties, I would not pass up three rail.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          Didn't know they came in 2 and 3 rail versions. While I would definitely like to have the 2 rail so I could run it I would not pass up the 3 rail version. Adding what in effect would be a shelf model not the worst thing for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     As a collector of vintage items first, but building a new platform to run them, I want three major specific pieces to add to my HO collection. The Walthers Baltic is one of them. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     I feel there will not be many available to buy so I would like to at least have one. Due to a very limited amount of these produced, much less then the Penn Line Crusader, and since there are few sales transactions not many know the importance of this engine to HO vintage history. Actually I'm started to think that my best chance will be one labeled wrong or in the worked needed to basket case variety. And as more learn about this engine being out there make less chances to find one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Thanks as usual for the responses to my question.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                           Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: erieberk@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:11 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] information wanted
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Jim, Keep in mind, when searching for a Taylor/Walthers Baltic (unless you don't mind a possible permanent shelf display only), that these engines were offered in both two-rail and three-rail versions -- the same as any other pre-War engines of the time.  It may be very tempting to jump on the first Baltic you see, shelling out $500 or so, but of little use except as a display model if it's for three-rail operation (unless you plan to install that third rail).  If it were me, I know I'd prefer to be able to run it, but I know too that it would be excrucionarily hard to pass one up if it turned out to be for three rail operation.  It might appear that it was at the time when the Tenite drivers were introduced, that the two-rail versions came out, since they would have the needed insulation.  Prior to that time, the drivers wouldn't need insulation when running via 3-rail.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11640
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Walthers Taylor-Baltic 4-6-4. Was: information wanted
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Denny A,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Yes, I have seen that early Tenite plastic referred to as Tenite I in some articles and it seems to have been notoriously unstable.  In the early 1940's both Red Ball and Varny experimented with it extensively for some of their freight cars, too.  Red Ball used it for the sides of their 65' long mill gon - I have a typically warped pair in a kit.  They also used it for the sides of their regular and longer legnth stock cars.  Varney used it for a gon, I believe, as well as their smaller parts, too.  I had not yet heard about Varney using it for driver centers, but would not be surprised as Varney was very innovative in his thinking.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> My Baltic is currently not accessible. Also, I have not looked at it  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> for some time, so I cannot be authoritative.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Varney drivers on the Baltic would have looked terrible, and it would  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> be questionable whether or not the locomotive could or would have been  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> able to function so "squatted-down". The Baltic drivers are nominally  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 80" drivers, and they look like 80".  The Varney drivers are 72"-  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> visibly quite a bit smaller- a different animal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> If memory serves, the Tenite drivers were not successful; they were  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> easily broken, and the Tenite over time shrunk enough to not retain  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the driver tires in place. Just how the Tenite was electrically  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> bridged, if in fact these drivers were used on the powered side, I  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have no idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The model in my possession came into my hands in about 1967. It has  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> well-used  cast-bright-metal-centered 80" spoked drivers.  I have not  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the slightest idea at the moment  whether or not in fact they are  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> "original", but have always presumed that they were.  Now, could these  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> drivers actually be early Penn Line replacements?  They would have fit  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> quite nicely, and also would have been quite accurate as to appearance  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and scale. H-mmm.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To my knowledge, the Taylor Baltic was the very first American  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> commercially available HO locomotive kit (no others have yet  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> surfaced).  It was a sophisticated model made to pretty accurate  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> scale,  relatively expensive for the time, and it required modeling  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> skills, that although infinitely more common among modelers than would  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> be now,were probably still above that of many potential customers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> A definitive article authored by kit designer Frank Taylor on  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> constructing/assembling this kit model is  in  January 1936 issues of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> MODEL CRAFTSMAN. This article followed directly on the heels of an MR  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Walthers ad in Nov or Dec 1935 announcing that Walthers had purchased  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> both the model, and Taylor's services.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Varney apparently also tried 72" Tenite drivers. Several were on a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 1936-built  scratch-built brass 4-6-0 given to me in the early fifties  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> by the builder. All were broken. Although my memory is hazy, I seem to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> recall that the VArney  drivers may have had integral cast  Tenite  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> tires. Fortunately, new Varney drivers were easy retrofits.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Okoboji, IA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11641
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 9/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      In the files section we have a list of
metal Athearn cars.  But only three Texaco tank cars are mentioned.  Would
you be able to provide a list of what you do have, so I may add this info to
that list?
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks in advance and take care.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of dlw455
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009
9:43 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Atheran Tank
Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Group
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Metal tank cars there are 15 different groups from A501 to A515.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
My question is how many different numbers did each group have ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have over 60 tank cars with no duplicate numbers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jay in Pa. 
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11642
						From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
						Date: 9/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO 
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
group.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  File        : /ATHEARN TANK CARS.doc 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Uploaded by : dlw455 <dlw455@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Description : Athearn Metal Tank Cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/ATHEARN%20TANK%20CARS.doc 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/general.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
dlw455 <dlw455@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11643
						From: jay matz
						Date: 9/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have uploaded a file with 52 tank car numbers in the files .
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Will up grade as soon as I find the other box.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Mon, 9/7/09, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Atheran Tank Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Monday, September 7, 2009, 10:47 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In the files section we have a list of metal Athearn cars.  But only three Texaco tank cars are mentioned.  Would you be able to provide a list of what you do have, so I may add this info to that list?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks in advance and take care.

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of dlw455
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 9:43 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Atheran Tank Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Group
                                                                                                                                                                                      Metal tank cars there are 15 different groups from A501 to A515.
                                                                                                                                                                                      My question is how many different numbers did each group have ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      I have over 60 tank cars with no duplicate numbers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay in Pa. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11644
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 9/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 




 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      HI Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks, I have also merged your list into
the other list and it too is in the files section.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11645
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 9/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chuck,  I have 172 different tank car numbers on my list, covering the 15 different Athearn H0 metal tank cars. I haven't yet checked out the listings in the Greenberg's Athearn Guide, so there may be more.  I'll try checking that out later today.  There are at least 9 verifiable Texaco tank car numbers: 200, 204, 206, 207, 208, 242, 255, 263 and 289.  When  I say "at least," this means what has turned up so far, and has been reported.  There seems to always be just a few more (many of these suspected) numbers that pop up from time to time on eBay and others' collections, such as 202 for instance, but I'm using that number only as an example.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11646
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 9/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay, The same as each group of each of the other types of Athearn H0 metal freight cars, each group of tank cars had different amounts of car numbers -- there was no same total number of car numbers for every roadname. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The amount of different car numbers for each group of metal tank cars are as follows: #501 Co-Op - 10, #502 Atlas - 10, #503 Magnolia - 10, #504 Crystal - 12, #505 Union - 9 (+ 3 unverified), #506 Mobilgas - 10 (+ 2 unverified), #507 SP Gas - 11 (+ 1 unverified), #508 SP Diesel - 12 (+1 unverified), #509 Union Pacific - 122 (+ 1 unverified), #510 Shell - 9 (+ 1 unverified), #511 Texaco - 9, #512 Timken - 10, #513 UTLX - 11, # 514 Deep Rock - 11 (+ 1 unverified) and # 515 Shippers -- 11.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck, I came up with 179 total car numbers with including the Greenberg's Guide.  167 of these were verified.  We still need verification on 12 of the numbers, a few listed as such having been verified or added after publication, such as the #509 UP car number 69058 and the #512 Timken car number 7940 both which I sent to Dallas Mallerich before publication when we wewre editing the Guide but were overlooked.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Ray Wetzel  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11647
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 9/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Ray, as the numbers are passed on I will
add them to the list.  I seem to have only 57 so far.  I do not have
the Greenberg’s guide.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of  erieberk@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009
3:45 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Atheran
Tank Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay,
The same as each group of each of the other types of Athearn H0 metal freight
cars, each group of tank cars had different amounts of car numbers -- there was
no same total number of car numbers for every roadname. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The amount of different car numbers for each group of metal tank cars are as
follows: #501 Co-Op - 10, #502 Atlas - 10, #503 Magnolia - 10, #504 Crystal -
12, #505 Union - 9 (+ 3 unverified), #506 Mobilgas - 10 (+ 2 unverified), #507
SP Gas - 11 (+ 1 unverified), #508 SP Diesel - 12 (+1 unverified), #509 Union
Pacific - 122 (+ 1 unverified), #510 Shell - 9 (+ 1 unverified), #511 Texaco -
9, #512 Timken - 10, #513 UTLX - 11, # 514 Deep Rock - 11 (+ 1 unverified) and
# 515 Shippers -- 11. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Chuck, I came up with 179 total car numbers with including the Greenberg's
Guide.  167 of these were verified.  We still need verification on 12
of the numbers, a few listed as such having been verified or added after
publication, such as the #509 UP car number 69058 and the #512 Timken car
number 7940 both which I sent to Dallas Mallerich before publication when we
wewre editing the Guide but were overlooked. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Ray Wetzel   
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11648
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 9/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck,  I haven't gone to Jay Matz' (in PA) file yet, and I note that he's looking for another box, but I could fill in the rest of the tank car numbers he's missing after I see him post his remainders.  No sense in my giving you all of them right now if he's going to add more.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Later,  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11649
						From: jay matz
						Date: 9/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Ray & Chuck
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I found 8 more cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Shell 2005
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Texaco 204 / 205
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      UP  66902 / 66921
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      UTLX 206
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Shippers 165
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Magnolia  346
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The cars that are on my list and these 8 more I have. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay(in Pa.).
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Mon, 9/7/09, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Tank Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Monday, September 7, 2009, 6:58 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck,  I haven't gone to Jay Matz' (in PA) file yet, and I note that he's looking for another box, but I could fill in the rest of the tank car numbers he's missing after I see him post his remainders.  No sense in my giving you all of them right now if he's going to add more.   
                                                                                                                                                                                      Later,  Ray                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11650
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 9/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Please recheck your Union Pacific numbers; these do not exist.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11651
						From: jay matz
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Ray 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      the UP numbers are good.  the 69000 is on the repair shelf and the 69002 & 69021 are kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      they are packed away, the 02 & 21 are on the invintory sheet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Mon, 9/7/09, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Tank Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Monday, September 7, 2009, 9:27 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Please recheck your Union Pacific numbers; these do not exist.  Ray F.W. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11652
						From: Model RailRoad Warehouse
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Early use of Plastics, and more -was WKW Baltic
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Red Ball use of Tenite for Gondola sides. M. Dale Newton [Howell Day had some inventory]  also used it for tank car domes and billboard frames. Samples of each were included in the materials we received from Howell Day when we purchased Red Ball in 1975. We still have a huge supply of the plastic stock car doors. I have always been curious about the fire Newton experienced because there was apparently no further attempt by Red Ball to develop plastic components after the war. Exception was Howell Day's purchase of a complete second run of the Kurtz Kraft PS 1 boxcar & steel reefer [the first all plastic HO car kits I believe]sold as Red Ball.  Reason for my curiosity was that our first fire was caused by an employee error with a plastic injection molding machine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
On the topic of prewar HO locomotives.  Howell Day produced a PRR K4 kit under his "H Owen" brand.  I know at least six were made--he showed me a photo of six.  Do any exist today?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
While I'm here let me refute the obituary that has circulated after our announcement of the Red Ball sale. Model RR Warehouse is alive and as well as this economy permits. Signature Series (styrene body & brass parts)  and LTD series (brass) kits are continuing though not as "Red Ball."  Mark Twain once made observations about premature obituaries that I call to the attention of those who decided to circulate this one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
www.mrrwarehouse.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11653
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: H Owen K-4 Pacific
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Merle Rice,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           I'm sending these pictures 
because you stated that six H Owen  K-4 Pacifics were made and you 
wondered if any are still out there. I have whited out the owners name since I 
don't have permission to use it. However this picture ( same as the two I sent ) 
was in an 1989 issue of  "The Reporting Mark". This was the newsletter 
of the HOSC&H -SIG ( HO Scale Collectors & History group) moderated by 
Dave Spanagel ( Writer of the Varney Greenberg Guide).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         As you can see at least one of those H 
Owen K-4 Pacifics survived.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11654
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay, I'm not referring to UP 69000, 69002 or 69021.  BTW, what inventory sheet???  Anyway, I was replying to your message from yesterday (9/7) at 7:22 PM EDT; are you telling me you have UP 66902 and 66921?  There must be some mistake.  Ray 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11655
						From: a69mustang4me
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have here a mystery (to me) caboose. It looks like a Penn Line to me, but I do not think it is. Can anyone help identify. Pictures to follow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11656
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                       Any clues?
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: a69mustang4me <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 4:32:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      I have here a mystery (to me) caboose. It looks like a Penn Line to me, but I do not think it is. Can anyone help identify. Pictures to follow.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11657
						From: Chris B
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Binkley? I have an unbuilt kit of cast metal parts for a up caboose. Chris b
                                                                                                                                                                                      From:  "a69mustang4me" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 20:32:40 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
                                                                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                       I have here a mystery (to me) caboose. It looks like a Penn Line to me, but I do not think it is. Can anyone help identify. Pictures to follow.

                                                                                                                                                                                       Sean

                                                                                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                                                                               	 	 	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11658
						From: erieberk
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: H. Owen (?), was - Early use of Plastics, and more -was WKW Balt
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello Merle,  I find your mention of a pre-War H0 PRR K4 kit produced by Howell Day under his H. Owen brand extremely interesting, especially as he may have made as few as only 6 of these.  Now that's what you call a rare piece.  It's possible the George Stock may have produced single examples of some models, as he did custom engineering and machining, catering to specific needs of his customers.  We may never know the extent of such offerings though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Along these same lines, of pre-War engines and Howell Day, I have in my 1942 catalog of The Model Railroad Shop (of Dunellen, NJ) an offering of an H0 gauge Hudson loco & tender kit -- with photo; a NYC style engine (either a J1e or a J3a) -- albeit, with no indication of a manufacturer name, as found on page 26.  While I can't expect you to know every aspect of the history of all of Red Ball's previous owners, I was just wondering if perhaps you may be able to shed some light on this item, like could it also have been an H. Owen brand?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Other than this kit, and except for A.C. Gilbert's factory assembled NYC Hudson locomotives, I've never seen an American made die cast NYC Hudson kit by any other manufacturer to the best of my recollection.  For further insight, the ad reads: "HO Gauge 4-6-4 Hudson type Locomotive and Tender (illustrated above).  Lowest priced kit and easiest to build.  No soldering.  Assembled chassis, die cast boiler and tender, headlight, paint, transfer lettering, etc.  AC motor. 2-Rail.  Complete 4-6-4 Locomotive and Tender kit . . . $11.95.  Assembled 4-6-4 Locomotive and Tender . . . $14.95.  Note: Wheels on above 4-6-4 Loco not to NMRA standards.  Permanent Magnet to convert above loco to DC . . . $2.00."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You may be aware that the shop carried complete lines of all other competing manufacturers, as it was a retail hobby outlet, but with no "label" on this piece it's intriguing to say the least.  Any possibility of Howell Day producing this that you know of?  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Re: Red Ball use of Tenite for Gondola sides. M. Dale Newton [Howell Day had some inventory]  also used it for tank car domes and billboard frames. Samples of each were included in the materials we received from Howell Day when we purchased Red Ball in 1975. We still have a huge supply of the plastic stock car doors. I have always been curious about the fire Newton experienced because there was apparently no further attempt by Red Ball to develop plastic components after the war. Exception was Howell Day's purchase of a complete second run of the Kurtz Kraft PS 1 boxcar & steel reefer [the first all plastic HO car kits I believe]sold as Red Ball.  Reason for my curiosity was that our first fire was caused by an employee error with a plastic injection molding machine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On the topic of prewar HO locomotives.  Howell Day produced a PRR K4 kit under his "H Owen" brand.  I know at least six were made--he showed me a photo of six.  Do any exist today?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> While I'm here let me refute the obituary that has circulated after our announcement of the Red Ball sale. Model RR Warehouse is alive and as well as this economy permits. Signature Series (styrene body & brass parts)  and LTD series (brass) kits are continuing though not as "Red Ball."  Mark Twain once made observations about premature obituaries that I call to the attention of those who decided to circulate this one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> www.mrrwarehouse.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11659
						From: jay matz
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Ray 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      My mistake The # are 69000/69002/69021.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Not 66902 & 66921.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      My inventory sheet. A few years ago I did an inventory of all my stuff so I knew what I had.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Now I know what I have , maby not where but I have it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11660
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      It looks like a Mantua..........:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 4:37:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Any clues?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: a69mustang4me <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 4:32:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      I have here a mystery (to me) caboose. It looks like a Penn Line to me, but I do not think it is. Can anyone help identify. Pictures to follow.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean



                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11661
						From: erieberk
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      This appears to be molded plastic; is that right?  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Any clues?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: a69mustang4me <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 4:32:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have here a mystery (to me) caboose. It looks like a Penn Line to me, but I do not think it is. Can anyone help identify. Pictures to follow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11662
						From: erieberk
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Alright Jay, thanks for clarifying; I knew those weren't legitimate Athearn UP numbers.  The UP 69000, 69002 and 69021 are in your file, as part of your 52 tank cars.  Then you have 6 more cars, not 8, for a total of 58 tank cars.  I guess you wrote these two down wrong on your inventory sheet <g>.  It pays to make up an inventory sheet -- with car numbers -- especially when collecting them by number.  I found long ago that this is the only way you can prevent getting doubles and still know what other cars you need.  I'll try to post the rest of the Athearn metal tank car numbers shortly.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, jay matz <dlw455@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Ray 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> My mistake The # are 69000/69002/69021.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Not 66902 & 66921.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> My inventory sheet. A few years ago I did an inventory of all my stuff so I knew what I had.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Now I know what I have , maby not where but I have it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Jay
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11663
						From: erieberk
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck,  Here are the car-side/reporting numbers for the Athearn Metal tanks cars, as far as is known -- in addition to ones Jay has already supplied.  Those few numbers in brackets are unverified but suspected as being legitimate, even possibly stated as being correct by one or more contributors to the Greenberg Guide.  I've since come across a few of those numbers, as I see Jay (from PA) has also.  So, starting with the catalog number and then the Roadname, they are:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
501 Co-Op -- 8700, 8702, 8704, 8723, 8756, 8777 and 8799.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
502 Atlas -- 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 456, 457 and 458.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
503 Magnolia -- 340, 341, 342, 344, 347, 348 and 349.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
504 Crystal -- (300), (301), 303, 304, 307, 308, 309 and 320.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
505 Union "76" -- 10032, 10060, 10105, 10108, 10214, 10237, 10260, 10299, 10312, (10321) and 10327.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
506 Mobilgas -- 8006, (8020), 8030, 8035, 8039, 8052, (8059), (8086), 8088 and (8089).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
507 Southern Pacific (Gasoline) -- 58444, 58463, 58472, 58474, (58552), 58555, 58567 and 58570.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
508 Southern Pacific (Diesel) -- 55440, 55444, 55463, 55472, 55522, 55555, 55567 and 55570.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
509 Union Pacific -- 69001, 69005, 69014, 69027, 69053, 69081, 69146, 69227, 69277, 69538 and (69901).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
510 Shell -- 2001 and 2002.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
511 Texaco -- 242, 255, 263 and 289.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
512 Timken -- 7942, 7943, 7944, 7945, 7946, 7947 and 7948.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
513 U.T.L.X. -- 200, 201, 202, 245, 261, 267 and 269.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
514 Deep Rock -- 2144, 2150, 2154, 2156, (2158), 2168 and 2192.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
515 Shippers -- 53, 158, 159, 160, 162, 166 and 313.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You got 'em all Chuck, thanks.  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Ray, as the numbers are passed on I will add them to the list.  I seem to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have only 57 so far.  I do not have the Greenberg's guide.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Of erieberk@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 3:45 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Atheran Tank Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Jay, The same as each group of each of the other types of Athearn H0 metal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> freight cars, each group of tank cars had different amounts of car numbers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -- there was no same total number of car numbers for every roadname. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The amount of different car numbers for each group of metal tank cars are as
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> follows: #501 Co-Op - 10, #502 Atlas - 10, #503 Magnolia - 10, #504 Crystal
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> - 12, #505 Union - 9 (+ 3 unverified), #506 Mobilgas - 10 (+ 2 unverified),
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> #507 SP Gas - 11 (+ 1 unverified), #508 SP Diesel - 12 (+1 unverified), #509
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Union Pacific - 122 (+ 1 unverified), #510 Shell - 9 (+ 1 unverified), #511
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Texaco - 9, #512 Timken - 10, #513 UTLX - 11, # 514 Deep Rock - 11 (+ 1
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> unverified) and # 515 Shippers -- 11. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chuck, I came up with 179 total car numbers with including the Greenberg's
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Guide.  167 of these were verified.  We still need verification on 12 of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> numbers, a few listed as such having been verified or added after
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> publication, such as the #509 UP car number 69058 and the #512 Timken car
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> number 7940 both which I sent to Dallas Mallerich before publication when we
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> wewre editing the Guide but were overlooked. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11664
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
Late Varney or early Life Like...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
===========================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sean Naylor wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       Any
clues?
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                       
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
a69mustang4me <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Sent: Tuesday,
September 8, 2009 4:32:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Subject: [vintageHO]
Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have here a mystery (to me) caboose. It looks like a Penn Line to me,
but I do not think it is. Can anyone help identify. Pictures to follow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11665
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
I base my ID on the coupler pocket cover, the underbody detail hole
locations and the truck frames.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton on VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
=================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Late Varney or early Life Like...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
============ ========= ========= ========= ====
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sean Naylor wrote:
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       Any
clues?
                                                                                                                                                                                       
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                       
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
a69mustang4me <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    To:
vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Sent: Tuesday,
September 8, 2009 4:32:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Subject: [vintageHO]
Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
     
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have here a mystery (to me) caboose. It looks like a Penn Line to me,
but I do not think it is. Can anyone help identify. Pictures to follow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11666
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Looks like a standard Varney to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 3:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Any clues?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: a69mustang4me <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 4:32:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have here a mystery (to me) caboose. It looks like a Penn Line to me, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I do not think it is. Can anyone help identify. Pictures to follow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sean 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11667
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I still say Varney.  Wouldn't the Life Like version have moulded plastic 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
trucks with truck mounted couplers?  Those even look like Varney trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Varney "northeastern style" was probably the second most popular caboose 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
ever made (2nd. only to the Athearn AT&SF caboose).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If anybody wants a shell only (no floor) in SP silver I found one in my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
junque box last night.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 5:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /Late Varney or early Life Like...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ===========================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> /
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean Naylor wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Any clues?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> *From:* a69mustang4me <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> *To:* vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2009 4:32:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> *Subject:* [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I have here a mystery (to me) caboose. It looks like a Penn Line to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> me, but I do not think it is. Can anyone help identify. Pictures to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> follow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11668
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I don't see 8034 listed for Mobilgas.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11669
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      hI gUYS!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      i JUST GOT BACK FROM sOCCER PRACTICE FOR MY 6 YEAR OLD. tHANKS SO MUCH. i THOUGHT IT LOOKED FAMILIAR. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      oops.. I just noticed the caps..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I should have guessed Varney. Now that it has been mentioned, I must agree.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 7:16:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I still say Varney. Wouldn't the Life Like version have moulded plastic 
                                                                                                                                                                                      trucks with truck mounted couplers? Those even look like Varney trucks.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The Varney "northeastern style" was probably the second most popular caboose 
                                                                                                                                                                                      ever made (2nd. only to the Athearn AT&SF caboose).

                                                                                                                                                                                      If anybody wants a shell only (no floor) in SP silver I found one in my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      junque box last night.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                      Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/
 group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@verizon. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 5:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.

                                                                                                                                                                                      > /Late Varney or early Life Like...
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ============ ========= ========= ========= ====
                                                                                                                                                                                      > /
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sean Naylor wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Any clues?
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
 -
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> *From:* a69mustang4me <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> *To:* vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2009 4:32:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> *Subject:* [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> I have here a mystery (to me) caboose. It looks like a Penn Line to
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> me, but I do not think it is. Can anyone help identify. Pictures to
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> follow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11670
						From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO 
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
group.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  File        : /V List Athearn metal cars.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Description : List of Athearn Metal car kits  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Athearn%20metal%20cars.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/general.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11671
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Loaded along with Don’s 8034.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009
6:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Atheran
Tank Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck, Here are the car-side/reporting numbers for the
Athearn Metal tanks cars, as far as is known -- in addition to ones Jay has
already supplied. Those few numbers in brackets are unverified but suspected as
being legitimate, even possibly stated as being correct by one or more
contributors to the Greenberg Guide. I've since come across a few of those
numbers, as I see Jay (from PA) has also. So, starting with the catalog number
and then the Roadname, they are:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
501 Co-Op -- 8700, 8702, 8704, 8723, 8756, 8777 and 8799.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
502 Atlas -- 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 456, 457 and 458.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
503 Magnolia -- 340, 341, 342, 344, 347, 348 and 349.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
504 Crystal --
(300), (301), 303, 304, 307, 308, 309 and 320.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
505 Union "76" -- 10032, 10060,
10105, 10108, 10214, 10237, 10260, 10299, 10312, (10321) and 10327.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11672
						From: Garry Spear
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Is somebody creating a new updated Athearn metal car list.  i.e. I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
have a list of  162 Athearn metal tank cars of which I have verified
                                                                                                                                                                                      
121 cars.  26 of the verified cars were not on my original list (and I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don't know where I got it).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Most likely the 26 cars I added are in more modern lists than my
                                                                                                                                                                                      
starting point.  But I do have a list of 162 verified car numbers for
                                                                                                                                                                                      
some one to check.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Who is build a consolidated list?  I will be happy to send  him/her a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
copy of my data with instructions for understanding it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Garry Spear
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Chuck Higdon<vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Loaded along with Don’s 8034.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Atheran Tank Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chuck, Here are the car-side/reporting numbers for the Athearn Metal tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> cars, as far as is known -- in addition to ones Jay has already supplied.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Those few numbers in brackets are unverified but suspected as being
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> legitimate, even possibly stated as being correct by one or more
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> contributors to the Greenberg Guide. I've since come across a few of those
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> numbers, as I see Jay (from PA) has also. So, starting with the catalog
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> number and then the Roadname, they are:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 501 Co-Op -- 8700, 8702, 8704, 8723, 8756, 8777 and 8799.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 502 Atlas -- 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 456, 457 and 458.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 503 Magnolia -- 340, 341, 342, 344, 347, 348 and 349.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 504 Crystal -- (300), (301), 303, 304, 307, 308, 309 and 320.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 505 Union "76" -- 10032, 10060, 10105, 10108, 10214, 10237, 10260, 10299,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 10312, (10321) and 10327.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11673
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: H. Owen (?), was - Early use of Plastics, and more -was WKW Balt
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Ray F.W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If I can jump in here, I have thought that the Hudson shown in Howell Day's old pre-war catalogs was the Gilbert product.  In fact, his 1939 catalog identifies it as such, and the kit price that year was $10.00 (p. 26) and the permanent magnet retrofit part was $1.50 (pg.19). That year Day was also selling the Knapp Mountain at $15.00 kit, $19.00 RTR and the Roundhouse 0-6-0 kit for $21.00 and RTR $26.00.  That brings up that the low price of the NYC Hudson kit is also an good indicator of probable Gilbert origins.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Coincidentally, another scale manufacturer also sold the Gilbert NYC Hudson in his 1939 catalog, and that was none other than Red Ball founder M. Dale Newton, whose line Howell Day would buy in the late 1950s.  Due to fair trade laws, Newton's 1939 price was also $10.00 for the kit, $11.50 with DC1, 6V. DC motor.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Lastly, Howell Day shows a nice to scale PRR Atlantic 4-4-2 in his 1936 catalog (p. 17) priced at $20 for the kit and $40.00 assembled.  The herald on the tender is an "H/O".  H. Owen?  Other than this, and lacking a Lenehan's, this is the only place I have seen one of these, offered almost 15 years before Penn Line's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W. (Jay from NJ)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hello Merle,  I find your mention of a pre-War H0 PRR K4 kit produced by Howell Day under his H. Owen brand extremely interesting, especially as he may have made as few as only 6 of these.  Now that's what you call a rare piece.  It's possible the George Stock may have produced single examples of some models, as he did custom engineering and machining, catering to specific needs of his customers.  We may never know the extent of such offerings though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Along these same lines, of pre-War engines and Howell Day, I have in my 1942 catalog of The Model Railroad Shop (of Dunellen, NJ) an offering of an H0 gauge Hudson loco & tender kit -- with photo; a NYC style engine (either a J1e or a J3a) -- albeit, with no indication of a manufacturer name, as found on page 26.  While I can't expect you to know every aspect of the history of all of Red Ball's previous owners, I was just wondering if perhaps you may be able to shed some light on this item, like could it also have been an H. Owen brand?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Other than this kit, and except for A.C. Gilbert's factory assembled NYC Hudson locomotives, I've never seen an American made die cast NYC Hudson kit by any other manufacturer to the best of my recollection.  For further insight, the ad reads: "HO Gauge 4-6-4 Hudson type Locomotive and Tender (illustrated above).  Lowest priced kit and easiest to build.  No soldering.  Assembled chassis, die cast boiler and tender, headlight, paint, transfer lettering, etc.  AC motor. 2-Rail.  Complete 4-6-4 Locomotive and Tender kit . . . $11.95.  Assembled 4-6-4 Locomotive and Tender . . . $14.95.  Note: Wheels on above 4-6-4 Loco not to NMRA standards.  Permanent Magnet to convert above loco to DC . . . $2.00."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> You may be aware that the shop carried complete lines of all other competing manufacturers, as it was a retail hobby outlet, but with no "label" on this piece it's intriguing to say the least.  Any possibility of Howell Day producing this that you know of?  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Re: Red Ball use of Tenite for Gondola sides. M. Dale Newton [Howell Day had some inventory]  also used it for tank car domes and billboard frames. Samples of each were included in the materials we received from Howell Day when we purchased Red Ball in 1975. We still have a huge supply of the plastic stock car doors. I have always been curious about the fire Newton experienced because there was apparently no further attempt by Red Ball to develop plastic components after the war. Exception was Howell Day's purchase of a complete second run of the Kurtz Kraft PS 1 boxcar & steel reefer [the first all plastic HO car kits I believe]sold as Red Ball.  Reason for my curiosity was that our first fire was caused by an employee error with a plastic injection molding machine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > On the topic of prewar HO locomotives.  Howell Day produced a PRR K4 kit under his "H Owen" brand.  I know at least six were made--he showed me a photo of six.  Do any exist today?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > While I'm here let me refute the obituary that has circulated after our announcement of the Red Ball sale. Model RR Warehouse is alive and as well as this economy permits. Signature Series (styrene body & brass parts)  and LTD series (brass) kits are continuing though not as "Red Ball."  Mark Twain once made observations about premature obituaries that I call to the attention of those who decided to circulate this one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > www.mrrwarehouse.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11674
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Merle,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I had also wondered just what was destroyed in Red Ball's 1944 factory fire.  Dale Newton's October (1944) newsletter states little, other than, "Aside from our wrecked machinery, we saved little from our former shop. We did manage to carry out many of the small casting dies, and fortunately, many of thje larger dies were store in the pump house." 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
However, the December 1946 Red Ball News appears to have some of the information we are looking for. Under the headline, "Materials Famine Eases, Production Increases" an article states that "The receipt of the plastic stock car sides and those for the 65 foot mill-type gondola along with the plastic signboard castings are just the beginning.  None of the Red Ball plastic dies were destroyed in the fire, so just as rapidly as it is possible to do so, all of the prewar plastic parts will be back."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
And in his accompanying column, Hostler Ginchel reports that "A local truck driver is bragging that his truck hauled 10,000 freight cars.  It could be he meant those 20,000 plastic gondola and stock car sides he brought up from the freight depot."  No mention of those extra matching plastic stock car doors you still have.  I should order some to match the extra sides I have, even though they are slightly warped.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W. (Jay from NJ)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Re: Red Ball use of Tenite for Gondola sides. M. Dale Newton [Howell Day had some inventory]  also used it for tank car domes and billboard frames. Samples of each were included in the materials we received from Howell Day when we purchased Red Ball in 1975. We still have a huge supply of the plastic stock car doors. I have always been curious about the fire Newton experienced because there was apparently no further attempt by Red Ball to develop plastic components after the war. Exception was Howell Day's purchase of a complete second run of the Kurtz Kraft PS 1 boxcar & steel reefer [the first all plastic HO car kits I believe]sold as Red Ball.  Reason for my curiosity was that our first fire was caused by an employee error with a plastic injection molding machine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On the topic of prewar HO locomotives.  Howell Day produced a PRR K4 kit under his "H Owen" brand.  I know at least six were made--he showed me a photo of six.  Do any exist today?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> While I'm here let me refute the obituary that has circulated after our announcement of the Red Ball sale. Model RR Warehouse is alive and as well as this economy permits. Signature Series (styrene body & brass parts)  and LTD series (brass) kits are continuing though not as "Red Ball."  Mark Twain once made observations about premature obituaries that I call to the attention of those who decided to circulate this one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> www.mrrwarehouse.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11675
						From: Jay Wanczyk
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Sean, Don D., 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a small reference colection of these Varney and Life-Like Northeast style cabooses boxed or blister packed, tracking them from the earliest Varney circa 1950 through the transition Life Like days, specializing in Pennsylvania and Penn Central markings, but also some others including a few later Bev Bel custom painted editions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Agree with Don, your UP is a Varney, likely earlier US factory assembled, # 2864 UP.  Tip offs are the heavy formed wire end railings and heat-set pin on the draft gearbox cover. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Late caboose production went to a combined stamped steel ladder/railing assembly (different than found on Gilbert HO Northeast style cabooses as well). Later production in Taiwan and Hong Kong went to a one piece molded plastic ladder/railing, truck mounted couplers and a more detailed underframe casting.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      But caution that not all Life-Like production had truck mounted couplers.  Some of the earliest L-L blister packed (black, orange and green hang cards) freight cars still had the last Varney style rigid plastic trucks and body mounted couplers, and some even with paper stickers on the underside, "Made in Taiwan" in at least two different styles.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      However I have yet to find a Penn Central caboose with body mounted couplers in a sealed Life Like blister pack.  The one ilustrated below has the later molded plastic ladder/railing, truck mounted couplers and revised underframe.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Incidentally, Spanagel's guide to Varney implies in the set section that the Penn Central caboose was not issued by Varney, but I can report a new Varney blue-boxed (long box) example with correct Varney number and letter suffix on the box end, #2468 PC, as well as another in a short blue Varney box, un-numbersed from a boxed Varney set. As both are late US production, they have body mounted couplers and stamped ladder/railing assemblies.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W. (Jay from NJ)

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 4:37:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Any clues?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: a69mustang4me <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 4:32:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      I have here a mystery (to me) caboose. It looks like a Penn Line to me, but I do not think it is. Can anyone help identify. Pictures to follow.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean



                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11676
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Has anyone seen a street address for Newton/ Red Ball in Medford?  It would 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
be a kick to see what is there now--I'm heading to Medford in the morning 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 9:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Merle,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I had also wondered just what was destroyed in Red Ball's 1944 factory 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> fire.  Dale Newton's October (1944) newsletter states little, other than, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> "Aside from our wrecked machinery, we saved little from our former shop. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> We did manage to carry out many of the small casting dies, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> fortunately, many of thje larger dies were store in the pump house."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> However, the December 1946 Red Ball News appears to have some of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> information we are looking for. Under the headline, "Materials Famine 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Eases, Production Increases" an article states that "The receipt of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> plastic stock car sides and those for the 65 foot mill-type gondola along 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> with the plastic signboard castings are just the beginning.  None of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Red Ball plastic dies were destroyed in the fire, so just as rapidly as it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> is possible to do so, all of the prewar plastic parts will be back."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> And in his accompanying column, Hostler Ginchel reports that "A local 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> truck driver is bragging that his truck hauled 10,000 freight cars.  It 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> could be he meant those 20,000 plastic gondola and stock car sides he 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> brought up from the freight depot."  No mention of those extra matching 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> plastic stock car doors you still have.  I should order some to match the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> extra sides I have, even though they are slightly warped.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W. (Jay from NJ)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Model RailRoad Warehouse 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> <mrrwarehouse@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Re: Red Ball use of Tenite for Gondola sides. M. Dale Newton [Howell Day 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> had some inventory]  also used it for tank car domes and billboard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> frames. Samples of each were included in the materials we received from 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Howell Day when we purchased Red Ball in 1975. We still have a huge 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> supply of the plastic stock car doors. I have always been curious about 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> the fire Newton experienced because there was apparently no further 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> attempt by Red Ball to develop plastic components after the war. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Exception was Howell Day's purchase of a complete second run of the Kurtz 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Kraft PS 1 boxcar & steel reefer [the first all plastic HO car kits I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> believe]sold as Red Ball.  Reason for my curiosity was that our first 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> fire was caused by an employee error with a plastic injection molding 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> machine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> On the topic of prewar HO locomotives.  Howell Day produced a PRR K4 kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> under his "H Owen" brand.  I know at least six were made--he showed me a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> photo of six.  Do any exist today?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> While I'm here let me refute the obituary that has circulated after our 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> announcement of the Red Ball sale. Model RR Warehouse is alive and as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> well as this economy permits. Signature Series (styrene body & brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> parts)  and LTD series (brass) kits are continuing though not as "Red 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Ball."  Mark Twain once made observations about premature obituaries that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I call to the attention of those who decided to circulate this one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> www.mrrwarehouse.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
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No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.86/2355 - Release Date: 09/08/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
20:45:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11677
						From: erieberk
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Don. You're right -- I missed jotting that one down -- and I have that one too (besides its being listed in Greenberg Athearn Guide).  Well, it least this shows that somebody reads my posts in detail <g>.  Chuck, please add that number to the list, thanks.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I don't see 8034 listed for Mobilgas.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11678
						From: erieberk
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks once more, Chuck!  Regards,  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> group.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   File        : /V List Athearn metal cars.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Description : List of Athearn Metal car kits  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Athearn%20metal%20cars.xls 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/general.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11679
						From: erieberk
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Atheran Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Garry, I already sent (to be filed) Chuck H. a list of the 172 Athearn metal tank cars that I have (of the known 179 metal tank cars in the Greenberg Athearn Guide).  If you were to post your list, most of it would be duplicating what's already now in the files.  As there are always some new numbers coming out of the woodwork from time to time, it would be a big help if you could match your list up to that in the files and let us know if you have any that have not been reported.  The more previously unverified numbers that can be supplied, the more complete the list will be.  Chuck has already gone ahead and filed what I sent to him as a post on the group site, along with the numbers that Jay posted that I didn't duplicate. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Many thanks,  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Garry Spear <garrettspear@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Is somebody creating a new updated Athearn metal car list.  i.e. I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have a list of  162 Athearn metal tank cars of which I have verified
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 121 cars.  26 of the verified cars were not on my original list (and I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> don't know where I got it).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Most likely the 26 cars I added are in more modern lists than my
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> starting point.  But I do have a list of 162 verified car numbers for
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> some one to check.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Who is build a consolidated list?  I will be happy to send  him/her a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> copy of my data with instructions for understanding it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Garry Spear
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Chuck Higdon<vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Loaded along with Don's 8034.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Of erieberk
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Atheran Tank Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Chuck, Here are the car-side/reporting numbers for the Athearn Metal tanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > cars, as far as is known -- in addition to ones Jay has already supplied.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Those few numbers in brackets are unverified but suspected as being
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > legitimate, even possibly stated as being correct by one or more
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > contributors to the Greenberg Guide. I've since come across a few of those
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > numbers, as I see Jay (from PA) has also. So, starting with the catalog
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > number and then the Roadname, they are:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 501 Co-Op -- 8700, 8702, 8704, 8723, 8756, 8777 and 8799.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 502 Atlas -- 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 456, 457 and 458.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 503 Magnolia -- 340, 341, 342, 344, 347, 348 and 349.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 504 Crystal -- (300), (301), 303, 304, 307, 308, 309 and 320.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 505 Union "76" -- 10032, 10060, 10105, 10108, 10214, 10237, 10260, 10299,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 10312, (10321) and 10327.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11680
						From: erieberk
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: H. Owen (?), was - Early use of Plastics, and more -was WKW Balt
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jay, You may VERY WELL jump in here, since it's obvious you can shed some light on this.  Lacking the earlier catalogs from The Model Railroad Shop, I wasn't aware that this Hudson WAS an A.C. Gilbert product, and would never have expected that Gilbert's products ever came in kit form.  Now, where's that time machine -- never one around when you need one.  Besides the extremely comfortable prices, just to be able to get any of these (and OTHER) items with ease would be a big boon.  Unbelieveable, about the Pennsy Atlantic -- I wonder how many of them he made.  Never even seen them mentioned anywhere.  Thanks for filling me in on this stuff.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Ray F.W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> If I can jump in here, I have thought that the Hudson shown in Howell Day's old pre-war catalogs was the Gilbert product.  In fact, his 1939 catalog identifies it as such, and the kit price that year was $10.00 (p. 26) and the permanent magnet retrofit part was $1.50 (pg.19). That year Day was also selling the Knapp Mountain at $15.00 kit, $19.00 RTR and the Roundhouse 0-6-0 kit for $21.00 and RTR $26.00.  That brings up that the low price of the NYC Hudson kit is also an good indicator of probable Gilbert origins.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Coincidentally, another scale manufacturer also sold the Gilbert NYC Hudson in his 1939 catalog, and that was none other than Red Ball founder M. Dale Newton, whose line Howell Day would buy in the late 1950s.  Due to fair trade laws, Newton's 1939 price was also $10.00 for the kit, $11.50 with DC1, 6V. DC motor.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Lastly, Howell Day shows a nice to scale PRR Atlantic 4-4-2 in his 1936 catalog (p. 17) priced at $20 for the kit and $40.00 assembled.  The herald on the tender is an "H/O".  H. Owen?  Other than this, and lacking a Lenehan's, this is the only place I have seen one of these, offered almost 15 years before Penn Line's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W. (Jay from NJ)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "erieberk" <erieberk@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hello Merle,  I find your mention of a pre-War H0 PRR K4 kit produced by Howell Day under his H. Owen brand extremely interesting, especially as he may have made as few as only 6 of these.  Now that's what you call a rare piece.  It's possible the George Stock may have produced single examples of some models, as he did custom engineering and machining, catering to specific needs of his customers.  We may never know the extent of such offerings though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Along these same lines, of pre-War engines and Howell Day, I have in my 1942 catalog of The Model Railroad Shop (of Dunellen, NJ) an offering of an H0 gauge Hudson loco & tender kit -- with photo; a NYC style engine (either a J1e or a J3a) -- albeit, with no indication of a manufacturer name, as found on page 26.  While I can't expect you to know every aspect of the history of all of Red Ball's previous owners, I was just wondering if perhaps you may be able to shed some light on this item, like could it also have been an H. Owen brand?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Other than this kit, and except for A.C. Gilbert's factory assembled NYC Hudson locomotives, I've never seen an American made die cast NYC Hudson kit by any other manufacturer to the best of my recollection.  For further insight, the ad reads: "HO Gauge 4-6-4 Hudson type Locomotive and Tender (illustrated above).  Lowest priced kit and easiest to build.  No soldering.  Assembled chassis, die cast boiler and tender, headlight, paint, transfer lettering, etc.  AC motor. 2-Rail.  Complete 4-6-4 Locomotive and Tender kit . . . $11.95.  Assembled 4-6-4 Locomotive and Tender . . . $14.95.  Note: Wheels on above 4-6-4 Loco not to NMRA standards.  Permanent Magnet to convert above loco to DC . . . $2.00."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > You may be aware that the shop carried complete lines of all other competing manufacturers, as it was a retail hobby outlet, but with no "label" on this piece it's intriguing to say the least.  Any possibility of Howell Day producing this that you know of?  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Re: Red Ball use of Tenite for Gondola sides. M. Dale Newton [Howell Day had some inventory]  also used it for tank car domes and billboard frames. Samples of each were included in the materials we received from Howell Day when we purchased Red Ball in 1975. We still have a huge supply of the plastic stock car doors. I have always been curious about the fire Newton experienced because there was apparently no further attempt by Red Ball to develop plastic components after the war. Exception was Howell Day's purchase of a complete second run of the Kurtz Kraft PS 1 boxcar & steel reefer [the first all plastic HO car kits I believe]sold as Red Ball.  Reason for my curiosity was that our first fire was caused by an employee error with a plastic injection molding machine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > On the topic of prewar HO locomotives.  Howell Day produced a PRR K4 kit under his "H Owen" brand.  I know at least six were made--he showed me a photo of six.  Do any exist today?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > While I'm here let me refute the obituary that has circulated after our announcement of the Red Ball sale. Model RR Warehouse is alive and as well as this economy permits. Signature Series (styrene body & brass parts)  and LTD series (brass) kits are continuing though not as "Red Ball."  Mark Twain once made observations about premature obituaries that I call to the attention of those who decided to circulate this one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > www.mrrwarehouse.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11681
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Glenn J.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Newton's Red Ball facility, El Rancho Ferrocaril was located on the outskirts of town, along "Pacific Highway, Route 99" indicated on a hand drawn map in the October 1944 newsletter.  The Southern Pacific was to the rear of the ten acre tract.  His rebuilt factory was pictued in several ads, etc and was a large correguated metal building, but not a round roofed quonsett hut. Would love to see it today, if it still exists.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Interestingly, in the late 1950's after selling the Red Ball business to Howell Day, Newton opened a printing shop (his first chosen profession) in downtown Medford, on South Grape Street, less that eight or nine doors away from the Edwards twins, who had moved Kadee from Reseda(?), California, a few years earlier and were at # 720 S. Grape.!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Edwards Brothers later split Kadee and Micro-Trains into two seperate businesses, and last I heard three years ago from his son in law at the Philly NMRA National, was that Dale Edwards sill put in time at the family business, Kadee, now in nearby White City.  If you have the time, you might consider contacting Kadee and see if you could meet Edwards, one of the later pioneers of the hobby.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
His son in law also mentioned that he was not getting to the major shows as age was catching up with him, 80's?, so do not know how he is, but worth a try just to say "HI", if you have the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/kadee.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W (NJ) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Has anyone seen a street address for Newton/ Red Ball in Medford?  It would 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> be a kick to see what is there now--I'm heading to Medford in the morning 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 9:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi Merle,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I had also wondered just what was destroyed in Red Ball's 1944 factory 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > fire.  Dale Newton's October (1944) newsletter states little, other than, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > "Aside from our wrecked machinery, we saved little from our former shop. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > We did manage to carry out many of the small casting dies, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > fortunately, many of thje larger dies were store in the pump house."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > However, the December 1946 Red Ball News appears to have some of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > information we are looking for. Under the headline, "Materials Famine 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Eases, Production Increases" an article states that "The receipt of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > plastic stock car sides and those for the 65 foot mill-type gondola along 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > with the plastic signboard castings are just the beginning.  None of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Red Ball plastic dies were destroyed in the fire, so just as rapidly as it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > is possible to do so, all of the prewar plastic parts will be back."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > And in his accompanying column, Hostler Ginchel reports that "A local 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > truck driver is bragging that his truck hauled 10,000 freight cars.  It 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > could be he meant those 20,000 plastic gondola and stock car sides he 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > brought up from the freight depot."  No mention of those extra matching 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > plastic stock car doors you still have.  I should order some to match the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > extra sides I have, even though they are slightly warped.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > W Jay W. (Jay from NJ)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Model RailRoad Warehouse 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > <mrrwarehouse@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Re: Red Ball use of Tenite for Gondola sides. M. Dale Newton [Howell Day 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> had some inventory]  also used it for tank car domes and billboard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> frames. Samples of each were included in the materials we received from 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Howell Day when we purchased Red Ball in 1975. We still have a huge 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> supply of the plastic stock car doors. I have always been curious about 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> the fire Newton experienced because there was apparently no further 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> attempt by Red Ball to develop plastic components after the war. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Exception was Howell Day's purchase of a complete second run of the Kurtz 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Kraft PS 1 boxcar & steel reefer [the first all plastic HO car kits I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> believe]sold as Red Ball.  Reason for my curiosity was that our first 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> fire was caused by an employee error with a plastic injection molding 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> machine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> On the topic of prewar HO locomotives.  Howell Day produced a PRR K4 kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> under his "H Owen" brand.  I know at least six were made--he showed me a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> photo of six.  Do any exist today?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> While I'm here let me refute the obituary that has circulated after our 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> announcement of the Red Ball sale. Model RR Warehouse is alive and as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> well as this economy permits. Signature Series (styrene body & brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> parts)  and LTD series (brass) kits are continuing though not as "Red 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Ball."  Mark Twain once made observations about premature obituaries that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> I call to the attention of those who decided to circulate this one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> www.mrrwarehouse.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.86/2355 - Release Date: 09/08/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 20:45:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11682
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose. [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks to all for the great info. I think therfore this caboose is an early Life-like since it has the body bounted couplers and it is all plastic. I think the couplers are original, but I have no way to truely tell. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I currently have it listed as a penn line, but the trucks did not look right to me. I know when I listed it, I said penn line, but In my mind, I was thinking Varney, but somehow I lost it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks. It is not often I have freight car mystery questions, since most of my interest lies with the motorized variety, but I knew you guys would solve it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 2:06:00 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose. [1 Attachment]

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Sean, Don D., 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a small reference colection of these Varney and Life-Like Northeast style cabooses boxed or blister packed, tracking them from the earliest Varney circa 1950 through the transition Life Like days, specializing in Pennsylvania and Penn Central markings, but also some others including a few later Bev Bel custom painted editions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Agree with Don, your UP is a Varney, likely earlier US factory assembled, # 2864 UP.  Tip offs are the heavy formed wire end railings and heat-set pin on the draft gearbox cover. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Late caboose production went to a combined stamped steel ladder/railing assembly (different than found on Gilbert HO Northeast style cabooses as well). Later production in Taiwan and Hong Kong went to a one piece molded plastic ladder/railing, truck mounted couplers and a more detailed underframe casting.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      But caution that not all Life-Like production had truck mounted couplers.  Some of the earliest L-L blister packed (black, orange and green hang cards) freight cars still had the last Varney style rigid plastic trucks and body mounted couplers, and some even with paper stickers on the underside, "Made in Taiwan" in at least two different styles.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      However I have yet to find a Penn Central caboose with body mounted couplers in a sealed Life Like blister pack.  The one ilustrated below has the later molded plastic ladder/railing, truck mounted couplers and revised underframe.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Incidentally, Spanagel's guide to Varney implies in the set section that the Penn Central caboose was not issued by Varney, but I can report a new Varney blue-boxed (long box) example with correct Varney number and letter suffix on the box end, #2468 PC, as well as another in a short blue Varney box, un-numbersed from a boxed Varney set. As both are late US production, they have body mounted couplers and stamped ladder/railing assemblies.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W. (Jay from NJ)

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 4:37:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Any clues?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: a69mustang4me <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 4:32:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      I have here a mystery (to me) caboose. It looks like a Penn Line to me, but I do not think it is. Can anyone help identify. Pictures to follow.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean




                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11683
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery Union Pacific Caboose. [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      He Sean, Sorry if I mislead: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I should refrain from answering questions when the rare insomnia strikes, as I left out one Varney Northeast caboose detail:  Although Varney began in 1950 with a diecast metal frame, they later began molding a  plastic frame similar to the diecast metal one about 1957 or so, which was used until Life Like went to coupler mounted "Talgo" trucks circa early 1970's and the revised, some say more detailed frame I mentioned.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So that plus the heavy wire preformed endrailings and body mouted coupler pockets would make your caboose a Varney dated from the late 1950's through the late 1960's when they had F-3 locomotives's in matching UP colors.  Those are likely the original sprung Varney trucks with wide bolster as well, which would be appropriate to the era, but as you know, trucks are often switched and not a good indicator on their own.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Hope that is clearer now, but possibly I need another mug of CAFFEINE! LOL!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W. (NJ)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks to all for the great info. I think therfore this caboose is an early Life-like since it has the body bounted couplers and it is all plastic. I think the couplers are original, but I have no way to truely tell. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I currently have it listed as a penn line, but the trucks did not look right to me. I know when I listed it, I said penn line, but In my mind, I was thinking Varney, but somehow I lost it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks. It is not often I have freight car mystery questions, since most of my interest lies with the motorized variety, but I knew you guys would solve it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 2:06:00 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose. [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> [Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Sean, Don D., 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have a small reference colection of these Varney and Life-Like Northeast style cabooses boxed or blister packed, tracking them from the earliest Varney circa 1950 through the transition Life Like days, specializing in Pennsylvania and Penn Central markings, but also some others including a few later Bev Bel custom painted editions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Agree with Don, your UP is a Varney, likely earlier US factory assembled, # 2864 UP.  Tip offs are the heavy formed wire end railings and heat-set pin on the draft gearbox cover. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Late caboose production went to a combined stamped steel ladder/railing assembly (different than found on Gilbert HO Northeast style cabooses as well). Later production in Taiwan and Hong Kong went to a one piece molded plastic ladder/railing, truck mounted couplers and a more detailed underframe casting.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> But caution that not all Life-Like production had truck mounted couplers.  Some of the earliest L-L blister packed (black, orange and green hang cards) freight cars still had the last Varney style rigid plastic trucks and body mounted couplers, and some even with paper stickers on the underside, "Made in Taiwan" in at least two different styles.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> However I have yet to find a Penn Central caboose with body mounted couplers in a sealed Life Like blister pack.  The one ilustrated below has the later molded plastic ladder/railing, truck mounted couplers and revised underframe.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Incidentally, Spanagel's guide to Varney implies in the set section that the Penn Central caboose was not issued by Varney, but I can report a new Varney blue-boxed (long box) example with correct Varney number and letter suffix on the box end, #2468 PC, as well as another in a short blue Varney box, un-numbersed from a boxed Varney set. As both are late US production, they have body mounted couplers and stamped ladder/railing assemblies.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W. (Jay from NJ)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 4:37:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Any clues?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: a69mustang4me <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 4:32:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Union Pacific Caboose.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have here a mystery (to me) caboose. It looks like a Penn Line to me, but I do not think it is. Can anyone help identify. Pictures to follow.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11684
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Very interesting thread.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I once figured that M. Dale Newton's El Rancho Ferrocaril in Medord  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
was north of Medford out toward Central Point.  The location as  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
descriibed as being  along the old Pacific Coast Hwy. (US-99) is of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
course on an old alignment different from the current paralleling I-5  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
interstate. He seemed to be very careful not to tell anyone the exact  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
address!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dale Edwards in his med-upper  '80s still comes to Kadee's office in  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
White City several times a week and stays engaged in the business.   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The only show that he still  tries to attend is the local one in the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Medford Armory held annually the day after Thanksgiving, and he still  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
is proud to say that "I am a model railroader!".   At his request we  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
personally exchanged some freight car models of mutual interest last  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
year.  I felt that I got the better of the deal!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Merle Rice's comment that Howell Day purchased Kurtz-Craft's HO PS-1  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and reefer plastic car kits is new information to me, but is not  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
surprising.  Howell Day and Gerry White (owner of "Kurtz Craft") were  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
close friends. In about 1961 or 1962, the Days were house guests of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerry White in Redwood City. We entertained both of them and spouse(s)  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
at a quite memorable, and quite sumptuous dinner at our house. The  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
extended evening was memorable not only for fine fellowship and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
totally interesting sociability, but also for my wife's French Satin  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Pie, an outstanding culinary production  that I have never been able  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to again persuade her to repeat. Was it during this visit of the Days  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to California that the sale occurred?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
About two years prior to this date I had sold Howell Day a Mantua  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
brass pacific that I had altered by springing two of the three driver  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sets (fairly easy to do, and quite effective). I had regretted the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sale almost immediately after it was consummated, and I regretted it  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
even more after  hearing Day go on about how much he liked that  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
model.  I often wonder whether that locomotive is in his museum  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
collection. If the NMRA's plans to move that collection to the CSRM in  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sacramento ever comes to fruition (money!), I may yet personally find  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
out.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If memory serves, the first Gilbert HO NYC 6V 4-6-4s had tenite  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
drivers and they simply did not survive.  However, in scale  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
appearance, they were far superior to the fat crude cast metal drivers  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of later productions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Okoboji, IA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11685
						From: Model RailRoad Warehouse
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Early Use of Plastic  was Baltic & Red Ball
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for all the insights.  A Red Ball history has been written and after things calm down I hope to return to pursuing it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
RE H OWEN:  Howell did not mention any other locomotives so the Hudson is likely AC Gilbert.  The 4-4-2 is an interesting thing he did not mention.  He clearly made a point  that the reason he pictured six K4 (apparently the ad picture was for advertising purposes--though I have not seen it in print)pieces was that there had been several instances of ads showing ONE locomotive and then people had been unable to obtain "production" models. He wanted to overcome that fear and stigma.  I do not know how many more he produced but would think there should have been at least dozens. He made no reference to the 4-4-2 mentioned or other specific cases.  The 4-4-2 might have well been the "culprit." He was not one to talk ungently about others. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 RE OTHER PLASTIC MOLDS: There were no molds received here for the early plastic parts.  There WERE several very primitive tools for other early hand poured metal parts. Very few pre war die casting molds were included but there are some. Perhaps the trucker's comment suggests the plastic was subcontracted or off site. Because of the processes involved in the metal part production it was always done in a building apart from the woodworking and apart from plastic injection molding in our factory.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
RE Plastic Stock car doors:  There were 2 styles. We only have a bunch of one. These will be made available on the YARDSALE page of our website www.mrrwarehouse.com -- for only about a month--a little later in September.  There will also be a handful of unreleased (first & rerun)  and test runs of styrene partsets/kits using original Red Ball molds.  X23 boxcar, PRR DC Flat, Panel side hopper, certain crane parts (casb & boom)and possibly others. Also printed card sides for carbon black cars and NP open platform fruit car.  We are about 40% done packing the parts inventory [100s of thousands] for shipment to LaBelle.  Machines were palletized Labor Day and mold packing [about 500] has not yet begun. Metal mold inserts  range in weight under a pound each and some plastic molds involved are all I care to lift.  Electronic files of carside art are being created for LaBelle.  Some folks ordered mounted carside printing plates years ago.  That project is
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 still alive.  They were rescued from our second fire.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11686
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Pacific Highway--we'll be right along that--big "Harry  & David" fruit plant 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
along there now but will look for the site--did it have a number>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I know the Edwards brothers quite well--I had been to the Grape St. plant 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
many times--likewise to the plant in White City.  I set them up with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
layout that became the "proving ground" for the O Scale #805 coupler. Fellow 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
named Maurice Bailey in Ashland.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 5:16 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Glenn J.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Newton's Red Ball facility, El Rancho Ferrocaril was located on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> outskirts of town, along "Pacific Highway, Route 99" indicated on a hand 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> drawn map in the October 1944 newsletter.  The Southern Pacific was to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> rear of the ten acre tract.  His rebuilt factory was pictued in several 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ads, etc and was a large correguated metal building, but not a round 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> roofed quonsett hut. Would love to see it today, if it still exists.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Interestingly, in the late 1950's after selling the Red Ball business to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Howell Day, Newton opened a printing shop (his first chosen profession) in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> downtown Medford, on South Grape Street, less that eight or nine doors 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> away from the Edwards twins, who had moved Kadee from Reseda(?), 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> California, a few years earlier and were at # 720 S. Grape.!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The Edwards Brothers later split Kadee and Micro-Trains into two seperate 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> businesses, and last I heard three years ago from his son in law at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Philly NMRA National, was that Dale Edwards sill put in time at the family 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> business, Kadee, now in nearby White City.  If you have the time, you 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> might consider contacting Kadee and see if you could meet Edwards, one of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the later pioneers of the hobby.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> His son in law also mentioned that he was not getting to the major shows 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> as age was catching up with him, 80's?, so do not know how he is, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> worth a try just to say "HI", if you have the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/kadee.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W (NJ)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Has anyone seen a street address for Newton/ Red Ball in Medford?  It 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> would
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> be a kick to see what is there now--I'm heading to Medford in the morning
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 9:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > Hi Merle,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > I had also wondered just what was destroyed in Red Ball's 1944 factory
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > fire.  Dale Newton's October (1944) newsletter states little, other 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > than,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > "Aside from our wrecked machinery, we saved little from our former 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > shop.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > We did manage to carry out many of the small casting dies, and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > fortunately, many of thje larger dies were store in the pump house."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > However, the December 1946 Red Ball News appears to have some of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > information we are looking for. Under the headline, "Materials Famine
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > Eases, Production Increases" an article states that "The receipt of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > plastic stock car sides and those for the 65 foot mill-type gondola 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > along
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > with the plastic signboard castings are just the beginning.  None of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > Red Ball plastic dies were destroyed in the fire, so just as rapidly as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > it
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > is possible to do so, all of the prewar plastic parts will be back."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > And in his accompanying column, Hostler Ginchel reports that "A local
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > truck driver is bragging that his truck hauled 10,000 freight cars.  It
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > could be he meant those 20,000 plastic gondola and stock car sides he
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > brought up from the freight depot."  No mention of those extra matching
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > plastic stock car doors you still have.  I should order some to match 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > extra sides I have, even though they are slightly warped.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > W Jay W. (Jay from NJ)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Model RailRoad Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > <mrrwarehouse@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> Re: Red Ball use of Tenite for Gondola sides. M. Dale Newton [Howell 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> Day
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> had some inventory]  also used it for tank car domes and billboard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> frames. Samples of each were included in the materials we received 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> from
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> Howell Day when we purchased Red Ball in 1975. We still have a huge
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> supply of the plastic stock car doors. I have always been curious 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> about
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> the fire Newton experienced because there was apparently no further
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> attempt by Red Ball to develop plastic components after the war.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> Exception was Howell Day's purchase of a complete second run of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> Kurtz
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> Kraft PS 1 boxcar & steel reefer [the first all plastic HO car kits I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> believe]sold as Red Ball.  Reason for my curiosity was that our first
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> fire was caused by an employee error with a plastic injection molding
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> machine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> On the topic of prewar HO locomotives.  Howell Day produced a PRR K4 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> under his "H Owen" brand.  I know at least six were made--he showed me 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> photo of six.  Do any exist today?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> While I'm here let me refute the obituary that has circulated after 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> our
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> announcement of the Red Ball sale. Model RR Warehouse is alive and as
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> well as this economy permits. Signature Series (styrene body & brass
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> parts)  and LTD series (brass) kits are continuing though not as "Red
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> Ball."  Mark Twain once made observations about premature obituaries 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> I call to the attention of those who decided to circulate this one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> www.mrrwarehouse.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.86/2355 - Release Date: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 09/08/09
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 20:45:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.86/2355 - Release Date: 09/08/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
20:45:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11687
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      That Medford show is where I usually see Dale--There are a couple of places 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I go out that north Pac. Hwy area--that is the old US 99 route--as is "Main 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Street" thru Yreka.  They retain the US route number so that the state has 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to maintain the road--could get expensive for the cities to maintain.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 7:23 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  Very interesting thread.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I once figured that M. Dale Newton's El Rancho Ferrocaril in Medord
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> was north of Medford out toward Central Point.  The location as
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> descriibed as being  along the old Pacific Coast Hwy. (US-99) is of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> course on an old alignment different from the current paralleling I-5
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> interstate. He seemed to be very careful not to tell anyone the exact
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> address!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dale Edwards in his med-upper  '80s still comes to Kadee's office in
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> White City several times a week and stays engaged in the business.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The only show that he still  tries to attend is the local one in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Medford Armory held annually the day after Thanksgiving, and he still
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> is proud to say that "I am a model railroader!".   At his request we
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> personally exchanged some freight car models of mutual interest last
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> year.  I felt that I got the better of the deal!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Merle Rice's comment that Howell Day purchased Kurtz-Craft's HO PS-1
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and reefer plastic car kits is new information to me, but is not
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> surprising.  Howell Day and Gerry White (owner of "Kurtz Craft") were
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> close friends. In about 1961 or 1962, the Days were house guests of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gerry White in Redwood City. We entertained both of them and spouse(s)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> at a quite memorable, and quite sumptuous dinner at our house. The
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> extended evening was memorable not only for fine fellowship and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> totally interesting sociability, but also for my wife's French Satin
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Pie, an outstanding culinary production  that I have never been able
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to again persuade her to repeat. Was it during this visit of the Days
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to California that the sale occurred?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> About two years prior to this date I had sold Howell Day a Mantua
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> brass pacific that I had altered by springing two of the three driver
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sets (fairly easy to do, and quite effective). I had regretted the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sale almost immediately after it was consummated, and I regretted it
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> even more after  hearing Day go on about how much he liked that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> model.  I often wonder whether that locomotive is in his museum
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> collection. If the NMRA's plans to move that collection to the CSRM in
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sacramento ever comes to fruition (money!), I may yet personally find
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> out.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> If memory serves, the first Gilbert HO NYC 6V 4-6-4s had tenite
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> drivers and they simply did not survive.  However, in scale
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> appearance, they were far superior to the fat crude cast metal drivers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of later productions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Okoboji, IA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.86/2355 - Release Date: 09/08/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
20:45:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11688
						From: Garry Spear
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Tank - Cars More Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have checked my list with the recent .xls file and have 3 additions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
1) New Kit - A500, the unpainted kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
2) New number -  Kit A513 UTLX 206.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
3) New Number - Kit A514 DRX 2147.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Garry Spear
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 3:48 AM, erieberk<erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11689
						From: corlissbs
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I want to intorduce myself as a new member.  Brad Smith, from Franklin, WI.  I have an extensive collection of HO and catalogs from the 1940's through 1960's and among other things have tried to collect one of every New Haven railroad car and locomotive that has been made.  I also have tried to collect every Athearn Hustler number in every color made.  I do have a few holes in this collection, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11690
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello Brad,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Welcome to a fellow HO collector as well as New York, New Haven & Hartford finatic
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Can't say I have one of every model, but I have alot.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      If you need any info,  I have 2 2" binders stuffed full of information...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      These binders combined weigh ~20 pounds, to give you some idea what I am talking about. One binder is full of the technical info (drawings of engines, cars, structures, track plans, etc), the other has some, but is mostly meeting minutes and other info from the NHRTIA in the early late 60's through the 70s. I have a few scans now and plan to scan it all.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: corlissbs <corlissbs@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 2:57:14 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] New Member

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I want to intorduce myself as a new member. Brad Smith, from Franklin, WI. I have an extensive collection of HO and catalogs from the 1940's through 1960's and among other things have tried to collect one of every New Haven railroad car and locomotive that has been made. I also have tried to collect every Athearn Hustler number in every color made. I do have a few holes in this collection, though.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      Franklin, WI


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11691
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Welcome Brad, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            You have met Sean N 
and you will meet many other very knowledgeable members here who have both 
collections and lots of information to share. I 
too am available if I can help. While I don't collect New Haven items 
exclusively I do have a small collection of vintage ho to draw from 
and some information to share. If you already don't know it you might 
want to use   www.hoseeker.net also for 
information.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  corlissbs 

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 2:57 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] New Member
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I want to intorduce myself as a new member. Brad Smith, from Franklin, WI. 
  I have an extensive collection of HO and catalogs from the 1940's through 
  1960's and among other things have tried to collect one of every New Haven 
  railroad car and locomotive that has been made. I also have tried to collect 
  every Athearn Hustler number in every color made. I do have a few holes in 
  this collection, though.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      Franklin, WI

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11692
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Welcome aboard.  I also collect Athearn Hustlers, I have all the colors and multiple numbers, though I doubt I  have them all.  I also accumulate other early Athearn including metal freight cars, metal RDC's and metal cranes and most anything else in Hi F drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a rather small collection of New Haven, mostly the McGinnis(?) RDC's and the white/red F7 A&B units and a few passenger and freight cars,  all Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Wed, 9/9/09, corlissbs <corlissbs@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: corlissbs <corlissbs@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] New Member
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Wednesday, September 9, 2009, 11:57 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I want to intorduce myself as a new member.  Brad Smith, from Franklin, WI.  I have an extensive collection of HO and catalogs from the 1940's through 1960's and among other things have tried to collect one of every New Haven railroad car and locomotive that has been made.  I also have tried to collect every Athearn Hustler number in every color made.  I do have a few holes in this collection, though.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      Franklin, WI



                                                                                                                                                                                      ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11693
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry...Jim..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Just nearly choked when I read "small collection"..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 4:07:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Member

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Welcome Brad, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            You have met Sean N and you will meet many other very knowledgeable members here who have both collections and lots of information to share. I too am available if I can help. While I don't collect New Haven items exclusively I do have a small collection of vintage ho to draw from and some information to share. If you already don't know it you might want to use   www.hoseeker. net also for information.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: corlissbs 
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 2:57 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] New Member
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I want to intorduce myself as a new member. Brad Smith, from Franklin, WI. I have an extensive collection of HO and catalogs from the 1940's through 1960's and among other things have tried to collect one of every New Haven railroad car and locomotive that has been made. I also have tried to collect every Athearn Hustler number in every color made. I do have a few holes in this collection, though.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      Franklin, WI


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11694
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Tank - Cars More Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      HI Garry,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      File is not updated, thanks for the input.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Garry Spear
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, September 09,
2009 1:47 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:
Athearn Tank - Cars More Tank Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Guys,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have checked my list with the recent .xls file and have 3 additions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
1) New Kit - A500, the unpainted kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
2) New number - Kit A513 UTLX 206.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
3) New Number - Kit A514 DRX 2147.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Garry Spear
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 3:48 AM, erieberk<erieberk@wmconnect. com>
wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                       

 
                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11695
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Tank - Cars More Tank Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      That should have been “now updated.”
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Chuck Higdon
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, September 09,
2009 7:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re:
Athearn Tank - Cars More Tank Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      HI Garry,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      File is not updated, thanks for the input.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
[mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ]
On Behalf Of Garry Spear
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, September 09,
2009 1:47 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:
Athearn Tank - Cars More Tank Cars
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11696
						From: sprinthag
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "corlissbs" <corlissbs@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I want to intorduce myself as a new member.  Brad Smith, from Franklin, WI.  I have an extensive collection of HO and catalogs from the 1940's through 1960's and among other things have tried to collect one of every New Haven railroad car and locomotive that has been made.  I also have tried to collect every Athearn Hustler number in every color made.  I do have a few holes in this collection, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Welcome aboard. Kinda surprised you haven't run across this group until now. In case you haven't noticed the group owner is Don Dellman of Milwaukee, who you may be know. And there are several other local members also.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Group, I can atest to Brad's knowledge of and abilities in the hobby.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Saint Francis, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11697
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Early Use of Plastic  was Baltic & Red Ball
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Following up on Howell Day's location in Medford, OR--all along the Pacific 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Highway and ex SP r-o-w is modern food processing and forest products 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
plants.  I didn't see  any corrugated iron buildings that might have been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
it--so much for 65 years--gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Model RailRoad Warehouse" <mrrwarehouse@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 6:46 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Early Use of Plastic was Baltic & Red Ball
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks for all the insights.  A Red Ball history has been written and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> after things calm down I hope to return to pursuing it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> RE H OWEN:  Howell did not mention any other locomotives so the Hudson is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> likely AC Gilbert.  The 4-4-2 is an interesting thing he did not mention. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> He clearly made a point  that the reason he pictured six K4 (apparently 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the ad picture was for advertising purposes--though I have not seen it in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> print)pieces was that there had been several instances of ads showing ONE 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> locomotive and then people had been unable to obtain "production" models. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> He wanted to overcome that fear and stigma.  I do not know how many more 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> he produced but would think there should have been at least dozens. He 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> made no reference to the 4-4-2 mentioned or other specific cases.  The 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 4-4-2 might have well been the "culprit." He was not one to talk ungently 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> about others.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> RE OTHER PLASTIC MOLDS: There were no molds received here for the early 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> plastic parts.  There WERE several very primitive tools for other early 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> hand poured metal parts. Very few pre war die casting molds were included 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> but there are some. Perhaps the trucker's comment suggests the plastic was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> subcontracted or off site. Because of the processes involved in the metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> part production it was always done in a building apart from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> woodworking and apart from plastic injection molding in our factory.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> RE Plastic Stock car doors:  There were 2 styles. We only have a bunch of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> one. These will be made available on the YARDSALE page of our website 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> www.mrrwarehouse.com -- for only about a month--a little later in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> September.  There will also be a handful of unreleased (first & rerun) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and test runs of styrene partsets/kits using original Red Ball molds.  X23 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> boxcar, PRR DC Flat, Panel side hopper, certain crane parts (casb & 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> boom)and possibly others. Also printed card sides for carbon black cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and NP open platform fruit car.  We are about 40% done packing the parts 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> inventory [100s of thousands] for shipment to LaBelle.  Machines were 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> palletized Labor Day and mold packing [about 500] has not yet begun. Metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> mold inserts  range in weight under a pound each and some plastic molds 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> involved are all I care to lift.  Electronic files of carside art are 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> being created for LaBelle.  Some folks ordered mounted carside printing 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> plates years ago.  That project is
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> still alive.  They were rescued from our second fire.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.86/2355 - Release Date: 09/08/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
20:45:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11698
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I was up there today--from the north part of Medford south--didn't see any 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
buildings that might havew been "ERF"--Most of that area is now large food 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
processing plants (Harry & David, Bear Creek Orchards) and forest products 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
plants ( plywood, flakeboard--made with materials that should have gone over 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
{under} the mountain by rail)  Haven't been by the Grape St. location 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
lately--but it would be interesting to see what is there now-- Spent most of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the afternoon getting lost in the woods trying to find the place where some 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of my books were being repaired--one canyon over from where we should have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
been.    gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 5:16 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Glenn J.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Newton's Red Ball facility, El Rancho Ferrocaril was located on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> outskirts of town, along "Pacific Highway, Route 99" indicated on a hand 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> drawn map in the October 1944 newsletter.  The Southern Pacific was to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> rear of the ten acre tract.  His rebuilt factory was pictued in several 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ads, etc and was a large correguated metal building, but not a round 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> roofed quonsett hut. Would love to see it today, if it still exists.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Interestingly, in the late 1950's after selling the Red Ball business to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Howell Day, Newton opened a printing shop (his first chosen profession) in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> downtown Medford, on South Grape Street, less that eight or nine doors 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> away from the Edwards twins, who had moved Kadee from Reseda(?), 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> California, a few years earlier and were at # 720 S. Grape.!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The Edwards Brothers later split Kadee and Micro-Trains into two seperate 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> businesses, and last I heard three years ago from his son in law at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Philly NMRA National, was that Dale Edwards sill put in time at the family 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> business, Kadee, now in nearby White City.  If you have the time, you 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> might consider contacting Kadee and see if you could meet Edwards, one of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the later pioneers of the hobby.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> His son in law also mentioned that he was not getting to the major shows 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> as age was catching up with him, 80's?, so do not know how he is, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> worth a try just to say "HI", if you have the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/kadee.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W (NJ)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Has anyone seen a street address for Newton/ Red Ball in Medford?  It 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> would
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> be a kick to see what is there now--I'm heading to Medford in the morning
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 9:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > Hi Merle,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > I had also wondered just what was destroyed in Red Ball's 1944 factory
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > fire.  Dale Newton's October (1944) newsletter states little, other 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > than,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > "Aside from our wrecked machinery, we saved little from our former 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > shop.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > We did manage to carry out many of the small casting dies, and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > fortunately, many of thje larger dies were store in the pump house."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > However, the December 1946 Red Ball News appears to have some of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > information we are looking for. Under the headline, "Materials Famine
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > Eases, Production Increases" an article states that "The receipt of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > plastic stock car sides and those for the 65 foot mill-type gondola 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > along
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > with the plastic signboard castings are just the beginning.  None of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > Red Ball plastic dies were destroyed in the fire, so just as rapidly as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > it
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > is possible to do so, all of the prewar plastic parts will be back."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > And in his accompanying column, Hostler Ginchel reports that "A local
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > truck driver is bragging that his truck hauled 10,000 freight cars.  It
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > could be he meant those 20,000 plastic gondola and stock car sides he
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > brought up from the freight depot."  No mention of those extra matching
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > plastic stock car doors you still have.  I should order some to match 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > extra sides I have, even though they are slightly warped.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > W Jay W. (Jay from NJ)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Model RailRoad Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > <mrrwarehouse@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> Re: Red Ball use of Tenite for Gondola sides. M. Dale Newton [Howell 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> Day
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> had some inventory]  also used it for tank car domes and billboard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> frames. Samples of each were included in the materials we received 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> from
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> Howell Day when we purchased Red Ball in 1975. We still have a huge
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> supply of the plastic stock car doors. I have always been curious 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> about
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> the fire Newton experienced because there was apparently no further
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> attempt by Red Ball to develop plastic components after the war.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> Exception was Howell Day's purchase of a complete second run of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> Kurtz
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> Kraft PS 1 boxcar & steel reefer [the first all plastic HO car kits I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> believe]sold as Red Ball.  Reason for my curiosity was that our first
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> fire was caused by an employee error with a plastic injection molding
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> machine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> On the topic of prewar HO locomotives.  Howell Day produced a PRR K4 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> under his "H Owen" brand.  I know at least six were made--he showed me 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> photo of six.  Do any exist today?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> While I'm here let me refute the obituary that has circulated after 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> our
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> announcement of the Red Ball sale. Model RR Warehouse is alive and as
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> well as this economy permits. Signature Series (styrene body & brass
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> parts)  and LTD series (brass) kits are continuing though not as "Red
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> Ball."  Mark Twain once made observations about premature obituaries 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> that
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> I call to the attention of those who decided to circulate this one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >> www.mrrwarehouse.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.86/2355 - Release Date: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 09/08/09
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 20:45:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.86/2355 - Release Date: 09/08/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
20:45:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11699
						From: George Frey
						Date: 9/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      found this on the model railroad warehouse site dont know if its the same redball or not
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      RED BALL IS GETTING READY TO MOVE  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Announcement  for release  8/29/09
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       Red Ball, head-quartered at Roanoke and Huntington Indiana, since 1976,  is packing up to move back out west -- to Cheyenne, Wyoming.  Negotiations and preparations (in Indiana and Wyoming) have been underway since October 2007.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 8:27:10 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I was up there today--from the north part of Medford south--didn' t see any 
                                                                                                                                                                                      buildings that might havew been "ERF"--Most of that area is now large food 
                                                                                                                                                                                      processing plants (Harry & David, Bear Creek Orchards) and forest products 
                                                                                                                                                                                      plants ( plywood, flakeboard-- made with materials that should have gone over 
                                                                                                                                                                                      {under} the mountain by rail) Haven't been by the Grape St. location 
                                                                                                                                                                                      lately--but it would be interesting to see what is there now-- Spent most of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      the afternoon getting lost in the woods trying to find the place where some 
                                                                                                                                                                                      of my books were being repaired--one canyon over from where we should have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      been. gj

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 5:16 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics

                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Glenn J.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Newton's Red Ball facility, El Rancho Ferrocaril was located on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > outskirts of town, along "Pacific Highway, Route 99" indicated on a hand 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > drawn map in the October 1944 newsletter. The Southern Pacific was to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > rear of the ten acre tract. His rebuilt factory was pictued in several 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ads, etc and was a large correguated metal building, but not a round 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > roofed quonsett hut. Would love to see it today, if it still exists.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Interestingly, in the late 1950's after selling the Red Ball business to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Howell Day, Newton opened a printing shop (his first chosen profession) in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > downtown Medford, on South Grape Street, less that eight or nine doors 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > away from
 the Edwards twins, who had moved Kadee from Reseda(?), 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > California, a few years earlier and were at # 720 S. Grape.!
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The Edwards Brothers later split Kadee and Micro-Trains into two seperate 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > businesses, and last I heard three years ago from his son in law at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Philly NMRA National, was that Dale Edwards sill put in time at the family 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > business, Kadee, now in nearby White City. If you have the time, you 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > might consider contacting Kadee and see if you could meet Edwards, one of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > the later pioneers of the hobby.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > His son in law also mentioned that he was not getting to the major shows 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > as age was catching up with him, 80's?, so do not know how he is, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > worth a try just to say "HI", if you have the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://www.kadee. com/htmbord/ kadee.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > W
 Jay W (NJ)
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Has anyone seen a street address for Newton/ Red Ball in Medford? It 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> would
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> be a kick to see what is there now--I'm heading to Medford in the morning
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 9:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Early Red ball use of Plastics
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > Hi Merle,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > I had also wondered just what was destroyed in
 Red Ball's 1944 factory
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > fire. Dale Newton's October (1944) newsletter states little, other 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > than,
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > "Aside from our wrecked machinery, we saved little from our former 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > shop.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > We did manage to carry out many of the small casting dies, and
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > fortunately, many of thje larger dies were store in the pump house."
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > However, the December 1946 Red Ball News appears to have some of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > information we are looking for. Under the headline, "Materials Famine
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > Eases, Production Increases" an article states that "The receipt of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > plastic stock car sides and those for the 65 foot mill-type gondola 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > along
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > with the plastic signboard castings are just the beginning. None of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > the
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > Red Ball plastic dies were destroyed in the fire,
 so just as rapidly as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > it
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > is possible to do so, all of the prewar plastic parts will be back."
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > And in his accompanying column, Hostler Ginchel reports that "A local
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > truck driver is bragging that his truck hauled 10,000 freight cars. It
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > could be he meant those 20,000 plastic gondola and stock car sides he
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > brought up from the freight depot." No mention of those extra matching
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > plastic stock car doors you still have. I should order some to match 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > the
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > extra sides I have, even though they are slightly warped.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > W Jay W. (Jay from NJ)
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Model
 RailRoad Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > <mrrwarehouse@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> Re: Red Ball use of Tenite for Gondola sides. M. Dale Newton [Howell 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> Day
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> had some inventory] also used it for tank car domes and billboard
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> frames. Samples of each were included in the materials we received 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> from
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> Howell Day when we purchased Red Ball in 1975. We still have a huge
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> supply of the plastic stock car doors. I have always been curious 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> about
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> the fire Newton experienced because there was apparently no further
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> attempt by Red Ball to develop plastic components after the war.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> Exception was Howell Day's purchase of a complete second run of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> Kurtz
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> Kraft PS 1 boxcar &
 steel reefer [the first all plastic HO car kits I
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> believe]sold as Red Ball. Reason for my curiosity was that our first
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> fire was caused by an employee error with a plastic injection molding
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> machine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> On the topic of prewar HO locomotives. Howell Day produced a PRR K4 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> under his "H Owen" brand. I know at least six were made--he showed me 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> a
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> photo of six. Do any exist today?
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> While I'm here let me refute the obituary that has circulated after 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> our
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> announcement of the Red Ball sale. Model RR Warehouse is alive and as
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> well as this economy permits. Signature Series (styrene body & brass
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> parts) and LTD series (brass) kits are continuing though
 not as "Red
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> Ball." Mark Twain once made observations about premature obituaries 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> that
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> I call to the attention of those who decided to circulate this one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >> www.mrrwarehouse. com
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.86/2355 - Release
 Date: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> 09/08/09
                                                                                                                                                                                      >> 20:45:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11700
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: do you know
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Merle P,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               I 
would like to ask you some questions since you are or have been involved 
with a number of companies producing HO items. My questions concern one 
company  Wabash Valley  and specifically their production of a metal 
body and tender for the B&O streamlined Cincinnatian. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        I was wondering if you happen to know of 
this company and product ?  If so would you happen to know where to find 
out is any are still out there and available ?  Please contact me off site 
at jimheck@... if you can provide 
any information.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Thank You   Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11701
						From: corlissbs
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi John:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for the local welcome.  No, I never ran across this group.  Used to belong to a group of collectors of old Athearn, but it became defunct.  This group seems more universal.  I see that Mike Bauers is a member here also.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I wonder how many of us collectors ever try to run our vintage locos.  I have wanted to run my Revell or Varney locos just for giggles, but never have.  I do want to re-power an Athearn Hustler, but finding the regear sets is difficult.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11702
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks, Jim and all who welcomed me.  The hoseeker site is 
great.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11703
						From: corlissbs
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Atlas Turbo Express
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Does anyone have an Atlas Trubo Express "locomotive?"  It is the Athearn Hustler frame with the huge motor and a propeller drive, in a futureistic body.  I have one, minus the prop and would like to find a prop to fit it.  Of course, Atlas has no parts for it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Might be fun to play with, but difficult to switch with!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11704
						From: oljoe@bex.net
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad....
                                                                                                                                                                                      
If you want to run those old Hustlers it probably would be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
a good idea to put in new rubberbands.  If you need some
                                                                                                                                                                                      
let me know and I'll part with some of my stash.  Since you
                                                                                                                                                                                      
mentioned a regear - I can tell you it is worth the effort.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The speed of the regeared items will be far slower than the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
rubberband versions.  If you still want the speed I would
                                                                                                                                                                                      
suggest getting one of the Lionel Hustlers.  In spite of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the gearing they are every bit as fast as the Athearns.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
There were several regear kits - I have one I got in
                                                                                                                                                                                      
ready to go shape and I have one still in "kit" form.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Another interesting variation is the CARY boxcab.  Heavy
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and definitely improves the pulling power.  Works well on any
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Hustler chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
corlissbs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi John:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks for the local welcome. No, I never ran across this group. Used to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> belong to a group of collectors of old Athearn, but it became defunct. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> This group seems more universal. I see that Mike Bauers is a member here 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> also.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I wonder how many of us collectors ever try to run our vintage locos. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have wanted to run my Revell or Varney locos just for giggles, but never 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have. I do want to re-power an Athearn Hustler, but finding the regear 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sets is difficult.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11705
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have been very remiss in not extending my welcome too, after all I AM the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
moderator <G>.  And especially to another local member!  (I see you know 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike, he and I are 1/2 of "Cream City Traction").  There's a couple fellows 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
from the Metro Club here too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As far as running old Vintage, that's what this group is all about!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "corlissbs" <corlissbs@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 7:40 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New Member
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi John:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks for the local welcome.  No, I never ran across this group.  Used to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> belong to a group of collectors of old Athearn, but it became defunct. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> This group seems more universal.  I see that Mike Bauers is a member here 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> also.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I wonder how many of us collectors ever try to run our vintage locos.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have wanted to run my Revell or Varney locos just for giggles, but never 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have.  I do want to re-power an Athearn Hustler, but finding the regear 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sets is difficult.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11706
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Joe, I have two of the Earnst regear kits built and in Hustlers.  One 
with an original motor (black motor) and the other with a Sagami motor.  
However, the gears pop out of the sideframes and jam, while running.  I 
have tweaked the setup, but to no great success.  I wish I could find an 
Accurate Lighting set, as it seems to be more reliable.  Alliance Loco 
Works made a regear set, but I have never seen one.  If anyone has a regear 
set for sale, I am interested. (Am I allowed to say that?)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11707
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Atlas Turbo Express
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Had two of them years ago, if you wanted speed they were the
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      items.  Also did a fair job of getting the dust off the right of way. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Roger Aultman
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  corlissbs 

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 7:44 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Atlas Turbo 
  Express
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Does anyone have an Atlas Trubo Express "locomotive? " It is the 
  Athearn Hustler frame with the huge motor and a propeller drive, in a 
  futureistic body. I have one, minus the prop and would like to find a prop to 
  fit it. Of course, Atlas has no parts for it.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Might be fun to play 
  with, but difficult to switch with!

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      Franklin, 
  WI

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11708
						From: toptrain2100
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                         Welcome Brad! I like everyone else would like to see your trains. Post some photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                     frank
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11709
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Atlas Turbo Express
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have one of those. I think I got mine in the early 70's
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I haven't run mine for a while since one of the blades is a bit weak  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
at the base and threatens to break off.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I'd like to fix it with some of the newer vinyl-compatible  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
'superglue' , and some small reinforcement patches at the base of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
blades.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I got it used and the old needle point axles had badly worn the frames  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
cast-in cones. I replaced the older style with the newer brass-bushing  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Hustler frames and newer axles and the thing ran very well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I ran it several times at the MSOE train club. The club layout was  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
10-15 years old at the time and The Flyer surprised everyone by  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
shooting huge clouds of dust out of each of the tunnels for the first  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
several runs.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The trackage in the tunnels was a lot more reliable after  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
that..............
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I've been meaning to replace the failing prop with more durable flying  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
airplane propellers and just didn't get around to it. I have the idea  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of taking two 3-bladed propellers, rotating them just enough to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
overlap, I think that would be 60-degrees, and use that as a much more  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
durable strong nylon replacement. it would look more 'scale' as well.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I planned to use props that were much larger than the diameter of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
original prop and cut the blades to match the diameter of the original  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Atlas prop.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
My Turbo-Racer had a red body with opaque white cockpit. I painted the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
body in Black and used the vivid Orange and clear Tiger-Striping  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
decals from an 40's-50's Southern Pacific  diesel set along with  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
warning decals and 'emergency escape release'  decals from some  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
plastic prop airplane or helicopter model I had built many years before.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I think I also labeled it as 'Experimental-99'..........[ I'll have to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
get it off of the shelf and look her over again.... ]
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I wanted to clear-mold the cockpit glass and outfit it  with a model  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
airplane cockpit. It would be a nice touch. I even saved two Mattel  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Vac-u-Form machines and recently found a site that sells upgrade parts  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
for them............. I should ...........
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I had this idea of casting the shell and making some newer ones with a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
ball-bearing axled frame............
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Within a couple of years of getting the Turbo-Racer, I found while  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
browsing in Toys-R-Us  a somewhat matching plastic pen that appears to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
able to be used as a more streamlined, later generation of an  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Experimental Rail Speeder of the same test program.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It's a mean looking long wedge of a fanciful model that looks like it  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
would be very usable on HO trackage, it's similar to a totally  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
enclosed, long-wedge of a jet-powered drag racer. It would be a fun  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
weekend project with a small jet-engine sound unit, super-brite led  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
headlight, and a -fast- low-geared drive motor. I suppose I have all  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of the needed parts around here as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Just maybe......... for a cold Winter weekend where I add a day of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
vacation to have a 3-day weekend...........
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I'd just have to add some suitable roller bearings from the LHS and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I'd have everything for it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Hey........ It would be FUN !!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Sep 10, 2009, at 7:44 AM, corlissbs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Does anyone have an Atlas Trubo Express "locomotive?"  It is the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Athearn Hustler frame with the huge motor and a propeller drive, in  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> a futureistic body.  I have one, minus the prop and would like to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> find a prop to fit it.  Of course, Atlas has no parts for it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Might be fun to play with, but difficult to switch with!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Franklin, WI 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11710
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Frank:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I would be happy to post some pics of my trains.  Could you or someone 
give me some direction as to how to do it? (Photo size in inches and/or pixels 
and how to create the folder and send, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11711
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Märklin H0
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Okay, odd stuff here.....
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have, supposedly en-route, a whole bunch of early (pre-1953) 3-rail (not stud contact) Märklin track, switches, double-slip, lamps, and catenary, but no rolling stock of any type.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I figured I would set up a point-to-point or some such in my shop, along the wall, with the catenary.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
But:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Where would I locate, keyword "cheap", a Märklain 3-rail H0 engine hopefully with pantographs for the catenary?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
NOW you get to drag out the thinking cap, eh?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11712
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Brad,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      There are two options, one is to attach
photos to your emails, and this site does allow that.    The
other would be to go to the group Photo section, add a folder and then add the
photos to that.  As long as your photos are less them a Meg file size you
should be ok.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of corlissbs@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009
6:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New
Member
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       






                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Frank:
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I would be happy to post some pics of my
trains.  Could you or someone give me some direction as to how to do it?
(Photo size in inches and/or pixels and how to create the folder and send, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      ,___
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11713
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      To go into a bit more detail, go to the group home page.   On the left side, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
click on "photos".  Then, near the upper right you'll see "Create album". 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Click on that and name you album.  Then open it and click on "add photo", 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
You can upload up to about half a dozen at a time (maybe more), name them 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and write a short descriptive caption for each one.  When you do this. let 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the rest of the group know you did so we can go look at them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
There really isn't a limit on picture size, if it's too big yahoo won't let 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
you upload it, it will automatically make medium size pictures in the album. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I try to keep mine down to about 800 x 1200, seems to work well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 6:35 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: New Member
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Brad,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There are two options, one is to attach photos to your emails, and this 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> site
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> does allow that.    The other would be to go to the group Photo section, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> add
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> a folder and then add the photos to that.  As long as your photos are less
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> them a Meg file size you should be ok.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11714
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Märklin H0
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I can't help but think "cheap" and "Marklin" is an oxymoron..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 6:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Märklin H0
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Okay, odd stuff here.....
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have, supposedly en-route, a whole bunch of early (pre-1953) 3-rail (not 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
stud contact) Märklin track, switches, double-slip, lamps, and catenary, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
no rolling stock of any type.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I figured I would set up a point-to-point or some such in my shop, along the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
wall, with the catenary.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
But:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Where would I locate, keyword "cheap", a Märklain 3-rail H0 engine hopefully 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
with pantographs for the catenary?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
NOW you get to drag out the thinking cap, eh?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Yahoo! Groups Links 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11715
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Märklin H0
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I know.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
That's why I am asking around on various fora...maybe somebody has something laying around that won't work on their 2-rail......
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I can't help but think "cheap" and "Marklin" is an oxymoron..
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 6:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Märklin H0
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Okay, odd stuff here.....
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have, supposedly en-route, a whole bunch of early (pre-1953) 3-rail (not 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> stud contact) Märklin track, switches, double-slip, lamps, and catenary, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> no rolling stock of any type.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I figured I would set up a point-to-point or some such in my shop, along the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> wall, with the catenary.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> But:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Where would I locate, keyword "cheap", a Märklain 3-rail H0 engine hopefully 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> with pantographs for the catenary?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> NOW you get to drag out the thinking cap, eh?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11716
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Don, I will see you at Trainfest.  I spend most of my time at our 
display, Milwaukee Light Engineering Society-the 7-1/2" gauge guys.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11717
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Atlas Turbo Express
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Mike:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I am going to try to replace the two blade prop on my Turbo Express with 
another prop.  Will stop at the hobby shop and see what they have.  If 
I have success, I will report back.  I tried calling Atlas, just in case, 
but they don't have anything.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11718
						From: orangetrainman33
						Date: 9/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: thanks and new question  RE Train Minatures
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Don you answered my question as to what coupler to use on T.M cars thanks however i still have a question?can i ose the original coupler pocket or do i ned to switch to kadee "draft gear" boxes for the #5 couplers?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11719
						From: George Frey
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: thanks and new question  RE Train Minatures
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      sorry my comp can't spell very well that should say   Can  I use
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: orangetrainman33 <orangetrainman33@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 11:59:08 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] thanks and new question RE Train Minatures

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don you answered my question as to what coupler to use on T.M cars thanks however i still have a question?can i ose the original coupler pocket or do i ned to switch to kadee "draft gear" boxes for the #5 couplers?
                                                                                                                                                                                      thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      George Frey


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11720
						From: oljoe@bex.net
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Follow up....
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The gearing set I mentioned was made by Ernst.  I think
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I got it direct from them but it might have been an
                                                                                                                                                                                      
ebay purchase.  I've had it sitting around for several
                                                                                                                                                                                      
years.  Was going to do it until I found a geared Hustler
                                                                                                                                                                                      
on ebay not long after I picked up the Ernst item.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
oljoe@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brad....
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> If you want to run those old Hustlers it probably would be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> a good idea to put in new rubberbands. If you need some
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> let me know and I'll part with some of my stash. Since you
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> mentioned a regear - I can tell you it is worth the effort.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The speed of the regeared items will be far slower than the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> rubberband versions. If you still want the speed I would
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> suggest getting one of the Lionel Hustlers. In spite of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the gearing they are every bit as fast as the Athearns.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There were several regear kits - I have one I got in
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ready to go shape and I have one still in "kit" form.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Another interesting variation is the CARY boxcab. Heavy
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and definitely improves the pulling power. Works well on any
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hustler chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Joe O'Loughlin
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> corlissbs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  > Hi John:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  > Thanks for the local welcome. No, I never ran across this group. Used to
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  > belong to a group of collectors of old Athearn, but it became defunct.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  > This group seems more universal. I see that Mike Bauers is a member here
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  > also.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  > I wonder how many of us collectors ever try to run our vintage locos. I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  > have wanted to run my Revell or Varney locos just for giggles, but never
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  > have. I do want to re-power an Athearn Hustler, but finding the regear
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  > sets is difficult.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  > Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  > Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11721
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: thanks and new question  RE Train Minatures
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      They drop right in to the TM pocket.  As someone else mentioned you may need 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to secure the coupler cover a bit better, and it may need a shim to prevent 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sagging, but that applies to almost any Kadee installation in anybody else's 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
pocket.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "orangetrainman33" <orangetrainman33@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 1:59 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] thanks and new question RE Train Minatures
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don you answered my question as to what coupler to use on T.M cars thanks 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> however i still have a question?can i ose the original coupler pocket or 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> do i ned to switch to kadee "draft gear" boxes for the #5 couplers?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11722
						From: larry_l_doub
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Welcome to the Group,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
You'll find a great deal of knowlage here
                                                                                                                                                                                      
on vintage HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
My moto, if it runs, run it,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I came across some stuff last year as from what 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I've learned here about it, possable as far back as the 30s?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Since I'm just DC mainly, I have no problems setting
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Vintage trains on the rails and running them ;-)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Davenoport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "corlissbs" <corlissbs@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi John:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks for the local welcome.  No, I never ran across this group.  Used to belong to a group of collectors of old Athearn, but it became defunct.  This group seems more universal.  I see that Mike Bauers is a member here also.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I wonder how many of us collectors ever try to run our vintage locos.  I have wanted to run my Revell or Varney locos just for giggles, but never have.  I do want to re-power an Athearn Hustler, but finding the regear sets is difficult.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11723
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Interesting viewpoint about running vintage trains. I like to run them 
also-- but sparingly. I have a Penn Line Crusader that I rescued from a 
well-meaning owner who believed that you should run vintage stuff so that 
others can see and appreciate it. Only problem with that is that the stuff 
can get damaged--as was the case with this Crusader which only lasted this long 
because it was not run for many years but did finally suffer some 
damage when he got hold of it. Not major stuff but extremely irritating!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In a message dated 9/11/2009 10:53:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
larry_l_doub@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Welcome 
  to the Group,
                                                                                                                                                                                      You'll find a great deal of knowlage here
                                                                                                                                                                                      on vintage 
  HO.

                                                                                                                                                                                      My moto, if it runs, run it,
                                                                                                                                                                                      I came across some stuff last year 
  as from what 
                                                                                                                                                                                      I've learned here about it, possable as far back as the 
  30s?
                                                                                                                                                                                      Since I'm just DC mainly, I have no problems setting
                                                                                                                                                                                      Vintage trains 
  on the rails and running them ;-)

                                                                                                                                                                                      Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                      Davenoport 
  Iowa


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "corlissbs" 
  <corlissbs@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi John:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Thanks for the 
  local welcome.  No, I never ran across this group.  Used to belong 
  to a group of collectors of old Athearn, but it became defunct.  This 
  group seems more universal.  I see that Mike Bauers is a member here 
  also.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I wonder how many of us collectors ever try to run our 
  vintage locos.  I have wanted to run my Revell or Varney locos just for 
  giggles, but never have.  I do want to re-power an Athearn Hustler, but 
  finding the regear sets is difficult.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  Franklin, 
  WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      >




                                                                                                                                                                                      ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11724
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Brad,  Welcome to the Group, you've come to the right place.  Nice to see you have a good collection.  Hope you'll be writing us about some of your prized pieces shortly.  Depending on what the collector wants to include in trying to complete his collection, we probably all have holes that need filling as I doubt there's any one of us that has found everything they're looking for yet.  Grab a seat in the lounge car, sit back and take it easy, and enjoy your trip here.  Best,  Ray F. Wetzel

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11725
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hmmm.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I believe (for myself), that if it doesn't run or work, it goes away.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The only caveat is the pair of Damascus-barrelled 12GA I have....fully functional, but I won't load them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
ALL of my model railroad stuff runs, every last bit, back to, oh, 1937 (two-rail "0").
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dial phones work, vacuum tube radios work, flathead Fords work, Jaguar works.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I do believe the PO was right on, best have them run and show folks what they were capable of than have them sit on a shelf in a dark room.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Should have seen the look on the face of the kid working at the LHS when I took a box of Varney locos down for a test-run on their store railroad.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I will spend whatever it takes in time and parts to make them run again, and run better than new.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Interesting viewpoint about running vintage trains. I like to run them  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> also-- but sparingly. I have a Penn Line Crusader that I rescued from a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> well-meaning owner who believed that you should run vintage stuff so that  others 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> can see and appreciate it. Only problem with that is that the stuff  can get 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> damaged--as was the case with this Crusader which only lasted this long  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> because it was not run for many years but did finally suffer some  damage when 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> he got hold of it. Not major stuff but extremely irritating!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> In a message dated 9/11/2009 10:53:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> larry_l_doub@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Welcome  to the Group,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> You'll find a great deal of knowlage here
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> on vintage  HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> My moto, if it runs, run it,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I came across some stuff last year  as from what 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I've learned here about it, possable as far back as the  30s?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Since I'm just DC mainly, I have no problems setting
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Vintage trains  on the rails and running them ;-)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Davenoport  Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "corlissbs"  <corlissbs@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi John:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Thanks for the  local welcome.  No, I never ran across this group.  Used 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to belong  to a group of collectors of old Athearn, but it became defunct.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> This  group seems more universal.  I see that Mike Bauers is a member here  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> also.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I wonder how many of us collectors ever try to run our  vintage locos.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have wanted to run my Revell or Varney locos just for  giggles, but never 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have.  I do want to re-power an Athearn Hustler, but  finding the regear sets 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> is difficult.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  Franklin,  WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo!  Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11726
						From: sprinthag
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hmmm.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I believe (for myself), that if it doesn't run or work, it goes away.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The only caveat is the pair of Damascus-barrelled 12GA I have....fully functional, but I won't load them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ALL of my model railroad stuff runs, every last bit, back to, oh, 1937 (two-rail "0").
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dial phones work, vacuum tube radios work, flathead Fords work, Jaguar works.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I do believe the PO was right on, best have them run and show folks what they were capable of than have them sit on a shelf in a dark room.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Should have seen the look on the face of the kid working at the LHS when I took a box of Varney locos down for a test-run on their store railroad.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I will spend whatever it takes in time and parts to make them run again, and run better than new.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jaguar works? Really? In rainy weather too? Now that is something.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You do know that the reason the British liked warm beer is that they all had Lucas refrigerators.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11727
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Yup.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I was surprised.....drove it to a Veteran's Meeting one evening, came out, dark and POURING rain.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
It all worked.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
BTW, Lucas holds the patent on intermittent windscreen wipers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Lucas three-position dash light swtich....dim, flicker and off.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Jaguar works? Really? In rainy weather too? Now that is something.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> You do know that the reason the British liked warm beer is that they all had Lucas refrigerators.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11728
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sometimes I have to agree, but... and this is a BIG but. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      For example... I have a large O scale silver plated brass - completely scratchbuilt - 4-6-6-4 M-2 class WM challenger that does not work. (pictures are posted in a folder here)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Every piece was hand or machine tooled from a true craftsman and not a single part was cast from a mold. It needs some restoration to get back up. It is 3-rail. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Most projects I like to get rid of myself, but some, like this one are either not replacable at all or not easily replaced and therfore will look just fine sitting on my shelf ...not running.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Some pieces just deserve the recognition and display, running or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 2:15:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New Member

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hmmm.
                                                                                                                                                                                      I believe (for myself), that if it doesn't run or work, it goes away.
                                                                                                                                                                                      The only caveat is the pair of Damascus-barrelled 12GA I have....fully functional, but I won't load them.

                                                                                                                                                                                      ALL of my model railroad stuff runs, every last bit, back to, oh, 1937 (two-rail "0").

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dial phones work, vacuum tube radios work, flathead Fords work, Jaguar works.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I do believe the PO was right on, best have them run and show folks what they were capable of than have them sit on a shelf in a dark room.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Should have seen the look on the face of the kid working at the LHS when I took a box of Varney locos down for a test-run on their store railroad.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I will spend whatever it takes in time and parts to make them run again, and run better than new.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                       > Interesting viewpoint about running vintage trains. I like to run them 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > also-- but sparingly. I have a Penn Line Crusader that I rescued from a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
 
                                                                                                                                                                                       well-meaning owner who believed that you should run vintage stuff so that others 
                                                                                                                                                                                       > can see and appreciate it. Only problem with that is that the stuff can get 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > damaged--as was the case with this Crusader which only lasted this long 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > because it was not run for many years but did finally suffer some damage when 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > he got hold of it. Not major stuff but extremely irritating!
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > In a message dated 9/11/2009 10:53:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > larry_l_doub@ ... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Welcome to the Group,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > You'll find a great deal of knowlage here
                                                                                                                                                                                      > on vintage HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > My moto, if it runs, run it,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I came across some stuff last year as from what 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I've learned here about it, possable as far back as the 30s?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Since I'm just DC mainly, I have no problems setting
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Vintage trains on the rails and running them ;-)
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Larry L
 
                                                                                                                                                                                       Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                       > Davenoport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "corlissbs" <corlissbs@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hi John:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Thanks for the local welcome. No, I never ran across this group. Used 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > to belong to a group of collectors of old Athearn, but it became defunct. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > This group seems more universal. I see that Mike Bauers is a member here 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > also.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I wonder how many of us collectors ever try to run our vintage locos. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > have wanted to run my Revell or Varney locos just for giggles, but never 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > have. I do want to re-power an Athearn Hustler, but finding the regear sets 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > is difficult.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
 
                                                                                                                                                                                       ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11729
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, seen those photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Personally, I would make it run.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
And, display it running on a 3-rail display layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Granted, you don't do a lot of three-rail, but it IS fun to blow their plastic-shell steam locomotive minds once in a while.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have oh, 3 or 4 ScaleCraft "0", every one of them came with field-wound open-frame motors and hand reverse.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Made them all function, then did a screwdriver swap to K&D Permags (BIG), saving all the original bits in labelled boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Haul the 1937 ATSF Mike out and, well, when the layout owner hollers over "Hey, Dave, 12 cars is the max we can haul on the grades", with their MTH whatever 2-rail, I yell back, "Joe, is that a challenge?"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Well, when you place a sand-cast bronze loco with cast iron driver tyres, balanced, on a layout like that, I think we got 22 cars on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So, that special silver unit......imagine, if you tune it up and run it.....the look on the 3-railer's faces.....
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
And, you're right, there are always exceptions...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
See?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
We fit "vintage" into the threads so Don won't spank us!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sometimes I have to agree, but... and this is a BIG but. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> For example... I have a large O scale silver plated brass - completely scratchbuilt - 4-6-6-4 M-2 class WM challenger that does not work. (pictures are posted in a folder here)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Every piece was hand or machine tooled from a true craftsman and not a single part was cast from a mold. It needs some restoration to get back up. It is 3-rail. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Most projects I like to get rid of myself, but some, like this one are either not replacable at all or not easily replaced and therfore will look just fine sitting on my shelf ...not running.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Some pieces just deserve the recognition and display, running or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 2:15:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New Member
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hmmm.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I believe (for myself), that if it doesn't run or work, it goes away.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The only caveat is the pair of Damascus-barrelled 12GA I have....fully functional, but I won't load them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ALL of my model railroad stuff runs, every last bit, back to, oh, 1937 (two-rail "0").
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dial phones work, vacuum tube radios work, flathead Fords work, Jaguar works.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I do believe the PO was right on, best have them run and show folks what they were capable of than have them sit on a shelf in a dark room.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Should have seen the look on the face of the kid working at the LHS when I took a box of Varney locos down for a test-run on their store railroad.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I will spend whatever it takes in time and parts to make them run again, and run better than new.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Interesting viewpoint about running vintage trains. I like to run them 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > also-- but sparingly. I have a Penn Line Crusader that I rescued from a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > well-meaning owner who believed that you should run vintage stuff so that others 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > can see and appreciate it. Only problem with that is that the stuff can get 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > damaged--as was the case with this Crusader which only lasted this long 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > because it was not run for many years but did finally suffer some damage when 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > he got hold of it. Not major stuff but extremely irritating!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > In a message dated 9/11/2009 10:53:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > larry_l_doub@ ... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Welcome to the Group,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > You'll find a great deal of knowlage here
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > on vintage HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > My moto, if it runs, run it,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I came across some stuff last year as from what 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I've learned here about it, possable as far back as the 30s?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Since I'm just DC mainly, I have no problems setting
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Vintage trains on the rails and running them ;-)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Davenoport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "corlissbs" <corlissbs@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Hi John:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Thanks for the local welcome. No, I never ran across this group. Used 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > to belong to a group of collectors of old Athearn, but it became defunct. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > This group seems more universal. I see that Mike Bauers is a member here 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > also.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I wonder how many of us collectors ever try to run our vintage locos. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > have wanted to run my Revell or Varney locos just for giggles, but never 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > have. I do want to re-power an Athearn Hustler, but finding the regear sets 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > is difficult.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11730
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Maybe someday Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      It would be great to have it running... Right now, just glad to have a job.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 2:40:32 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New Member

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, seen those photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Personally, I would make it run.
                                                                                                                                                                                      And, display it running on a 3-rail display layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Granted, you don't do a lot of three-rail, but it IS fun to blow their plastic-shell steam locomotive minds once in a while.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have oh, 3 or 4 ScaleCraft "0", every one of them came with field-wound open-frame motors and hand reverse.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Made them all function, then did a screwdriver swap to K&D Permags (BIG), saving all the original bits in labelled boxes.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Haul the 1937 ATSF Mike out and, well, when the layout owner hollers over "Hey, Dave, 12 cars is the max we can haul on the grades", with their MTH whatever 2-rail, I yell back, "Joe, is that a challenge?"

                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, when you place a sand-cast bronze loco with cast iron driver tyres, balanced, on a layout like that, I think we got 22 cars on it.

                                                                                                                                                                                      So, that special silver unit......imagine, if you tune it up and run it.....the look on the 3-railer's
 faces.....

                                                                                                                                                                                      And, you're right, there are always exceptions.. .

                                                                                                                                                                                      See?

                                                                                                                                                                                      We fit "vintage" into the threads so Don won't spank us!

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sometimes I have to agree, but... and this is a BIG but. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > For example... I have a large O scale silver plated brass - completely scratchbuilt - 4-6-6-4 M-2 class WM challenger that does not work. (pictures are posted in a folder here)
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Every piece was hand or machine tooled from a true craftsman and not a single part was cast from a mold. It needs some restoration to get back up. It is 3-rail. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Most projects I like to get rid of myself, but some, like this one are either not replacable at all or not easily replaced and therfore will look just fine sitting on my shelf ...not running.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Some pieces just deserve the recognition and display, running or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
 
                                                                                                                                                                                       Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      > From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@ ...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 2:15:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New Member
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >   
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hmmm.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I believe (for myself), that if it doesn't run or work, it goes away.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The only caveat is the pair of Damascus-barrelled 12GA I have....fully functional, but I won't load them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ALL of my model railroad stuff runs, every last bit, back to, oh, 1937 (two-rail "0").
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Dial phones work, vacuum tube radios work, flathead Fords work, Jaguar works.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I do believe the PO was right on, best have them run and show folks what they were capable of than have them sit on a shelf in
 
                                                                                                                                                                                       a dark room.
                                                                                                                                                                                       > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Should have seen the look on the face of the kid working at the LHS when I took a box of Varney locos down for a test-run on their store railroad.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I will spend whatever it takes in time and parts to make them run again, and run better than new.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Interesting viewpoint about running vintage trains. I like to run them 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > also-- but sparingly. I have a Penn Line Crusader that I rescued from a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > well-meaning owner who believed that you should run vintage stuff so that others 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > can see and appreciate it. Only problem with that is that the stuff can get 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > damaged--as was the case with this Crusader which only lasted this long 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > because it was not run for many years but did finally suffer some damage when 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > he got hold of it. Not major stuff but extremely irritating!
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
 > In a message dated 9/11/2009 10:53:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > larry_l_doub@ ... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Welcome to the Group,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > You'll find a great deal of knowlage here
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > on vintage HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > My moto, if it runs, run it,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I came across some stuff last year as from what 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I've learned here about it, possable as far back as the 30s?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Since I'm just DC mainly, I have no problems setting
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Vintage trains on the rails and running them ;-)
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Davenoport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "corlissbs" <corlissbs@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Hi John:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Thanks for the local welcome. No, I never ran across this group. Used 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > to belong to a group of
 
                                                                                                                                                                                       collectors of old Athearn, but it became defunct. 
                                                                                                                                                                                       > > This group seems more universal. I see that Mike Bauers is a member here 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > also.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > I wonder how many of us collectors ever try to run our vintage locos. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > have wanted to run my Revell or Varney locos just for giggles, but never 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > have. I do want to re-power an Athearn Hustler, but finding the regear sets 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > is difficult.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > > Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11731
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Yesterday I ran a Revell switcher (one without the clutch) and a Varney 
switcher.  I sure remembered why I appreciated Athearn!  Their first 
gear drives were so much better than the competition.  Heck, even the 
rubber band drive was better than the competition.  I have examples of all 
the Athearn drives.  Being a mechanical engineer, the evolution of drive 
mechanisms always interested me.  Penn Line had a very good drive and when 
Mantua introduced their F7 with the self contained power truck, it was top of 
the RTR train line.  That would have been about 1961.  Of course back 
then the best by far was Hobbytown of Boston, if you could afford it.  I 
still have my 1961 Mantua F7 and it still runs great.  Very well broken 
in!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11732
						From: corlissbs
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Added A Photo Album
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I added a photo album called New Haven Collectables, with 4 pics of a part of my collection.  Unfortunately, I didn't put in enough text on manufacturers.  Hope you can find the album.  I can't.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11733
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Added A Photo Album
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I found your album, nice collection.  To find it I went to the group homepage and clicked on photos.  When that came up I clicked on "list"  The list comes up in alphabetical order so I simply kept clicking "next' until there it is on the fourth page.  There must be an easier way to find photos, but that worked for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Fri, 9/11/09, corlissbs <corlissbs@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: corlissbs <corlissbs@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Added A Photo Album
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Friday, September 11, 2009, 3:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I added a photo album called New Haven Collectables, with 4 pics of a part of my collection.  Unfortunately, I didn't put in enough text on manufacturers.  Hope you can find the album.  I can't.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith



                                                                                                                                                                                      ------------------------------------

                                                                                                                                                                                      Yahoo! Groups Links

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11734
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Added A Photo Album
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Brad S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Nice New Haven collection, I see more than a few hard to find locomotives there, and in beautiful condition, too.  An easy way to find a photo album that someone has recently started or added to is to click on the photos link at left, then on the first photo album page, click on "last modified" at the right.  It will then present all of the albums in order of most recently modified. Then click on the one you want.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
New Haven is a the one favorite Northeast road I don't actively model or collect right now, but have a niced original boxed Athearn McGinnis RDC-3 I bought as a young modeler, the first motive power I purchased on my own, plus have a couple of the hobbytown of Boston molded plastic orange and black RS-3's. I especially liked the RS-3's and the second generation UB-25's and Alco 424's as that is what we saw when my dad took me to tour Mayborook yard around 1965.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Ps. you can change and add to your photo captions when you want to without changing the photo.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "corlissbs" <corlissbs@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I added a photo album called New Haven Collectables, with 4 pics of a part of my collection.  Unfortunately, I didn't put in enough text on manufacturers.  Hope you can find the album.  I can't.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11735
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      those old wound-field motors do well with new solid-state bridge rectifiers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:40 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New Member
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Yes, seen those photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Personally, I would make it run.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
And, display it running on a 3-rail display layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Granted, you don't do a lot of three-rail, but it IS fun to blow their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
plastic-shell steam locomotive minds once in a while.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have oh, 3 or 4 ScaleCraft "0", every one of them came with field-wound 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
open-frame motors and hand reverse.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Made them all function, then did a screwdriver swap to K&D Permags (BIG), 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
saving all the original bits in labelled boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Haul the 1937 ATSF Mike out and, well, when the layout owner hollers over 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
"Hey, Dave, 12 cars is the max we can haul on the grades", with their MTH 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
whatever 2-rail, I yell back, "Joe, is that a challenge?"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Well, when you place a sand-cast bronze loco with cast iron driver tyres, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
balanced, on a layout like that, I think we got 22 cars on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So, that special silver unit......imagine, if you tune it up and run 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
it.....the look on the 3-railer's faces.....
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
And, you're right, there are always exceptions...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
See?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
We fit "vintage" into the threads so Don won't spank us!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sometimes I have to agree, but... and this is a BIG but.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> For example... I have a large O scale silver plated brass - completely 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> scratchbuilt - 4-6-6-4 M-2 class WM challenger that does not work. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (pictures are posted in a folder here)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Every piece was hand or machine tooled from a true craftsman and not a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> single part was cast from a mold. It needs some restoration to get back 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> up. It is 3-rail.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Most projects I like to get rid of myself, but some, like this one are 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> either not replacable at all or not easily replaced and therfore will look 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> just fine sitting on my shelf ...not running.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Some pieces just deserve the recognition and display, running or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 2:15:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New Member
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hmmm.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I believe (for myself), that if it doesn't run or work, it goes away.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The only caveat is the pair of Damascus-barrelled 12GA I have....fully 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> functional, but I won't load them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ALL of my model railroad stuff runs, every last bit, back to, oh, 1937 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (two-rail "0").
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dial phones work, vacuum tube radios work, flathead Fords work, Jaguar 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> works.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I do believe the PO was right on, best have them run and show folks what 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> they were capable of than have them sit on a shelf in a dark room.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Should have seen the look on the face of the kid working at the LHS when I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> took a box of Varney locos down for a test-run on their store railroad.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I will spend whatever it takes in time and parts to make them run again, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and run better than new.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Interesting viewpoint about running vintage trains. I like to run them
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > also-- but sparingly. I have a Penn Line Crusader that I rescued from a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > well-meaning owner who believed that you should run vintage stuff so 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > that others
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > can see and appreciate it. Only problem with that is that the stuff can 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > get
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > damaged--as was the case with this Crusader which only lasted this long
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > because it was not run for many years but did finally suffer some damage 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > when
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > he got hold of it. Not major stuff but extremely irritating!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > In a message dated 9/11/2009 10:53:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > larry_l_doub@ ... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Welcome to the Group,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > You'll find a great deal of knowlage here
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > on vintage HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > My moto, if it runs, run it,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I came across some stuff last year as from what
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I've learned here about it, possable as far back as the 30s?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Since I'm just DC mainly, I have no problems setting
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Vintage trains on the rails and running them ;-)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Davenoport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "corlissbs" <corlissbs@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Hi John:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Thanks for the local welcome. No, I never ran across this group. Used
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > to belong to a group of collectors of old Athearn, but it became 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > defunct.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > This group seems more universal. I see that Mike Bauers is a member here
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > also.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I wonder how many of us collectors ever try to run our vintage locos. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > have wanted to run my Revell or Varney locos just for giggles, but never
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > have. I do want to re-power an Athearn Hustler, but finding the regear 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > sets
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > is difficult.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.91/2363 - Release Date: 09/11/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11736
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Varney Streamlined Hudson Project by toptrain2100
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Frank,  Catching up with photos and just saw your latest three shots of the painted streamlined Varney boiler and tender.  That fairing on the outside of the running boards came out great.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11737
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Added A Photo Album
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I 
found the album easily. Went to home page and hit photos on left. All 
albums come up in alphabetical order and went to 
New Haven Collectables.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Very good 
pictures and pieces in the collection in excellent shape. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  Wobbly913 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 6:55 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Added A Photo 
  Album
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      I found your album, nice collection.  To find it I went to the 
        group homepage and clicked on photos.  When that came up I clicked 
        on "list"  The list comes up in alphabetical order so I simply kept 
        clicking "next' until there it is on the fourth page.  There must 
        be an easier way to find photos, but that worked for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Fri, 9/11/09, corlissbs 
        <corlissbs@aol. com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
          corlissbs <corlissbs@aol. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Added 
          A Photo Album
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Friday, 
          September 11, 2009, 3:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      I added a photo album called New Haven 
          Collectables, with 4 pics of a part of my collection.  
          Unfortunately, I didn't put in enough text on manufacturers.  
          Hope you can find the album.  I can't.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad 
          Smith



                                                                                                                                                                                      ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                                                                                                                                                                      Yahoo! 
          Groups Links

                                                                                                                                                                                      <*> To visit your group on the web, go 
          to:
                                                                                                                                                                                          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/

                                                                                                                                                                                      <*> 
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11738
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: <corlissbs@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 4:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Member
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yesterday I ran a Revell switcher (one without the clutch) and a Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> switcher.  I sure remembered why I appreciated Athearn!  Their first  gear
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> drives were so much better than the competition.  Heck, even the  rubber 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> band
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> drive was better than the competition.  I have examples of all  the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> drives.  Being a mechanical engineer, the evolution of drive  mechanisms
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> always interested me.  Penn Line had a very good drive and when  Mantua
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> introduced their F7 with the self contained power truck, it was top of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the RTR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> train line.  That would have been about 1961.  Of course back  then the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> best by
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> far was Hobbytown of Boston, if you could afford it.  I  still have my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 1961
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mantua F7 and it still runs great.  Very well broken  in!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
OTOH, if it even motivates down the track under it's own power it's a better 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
runner than most of the junk coming from China today that won't even move 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
after about 6 months or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Back on topic, I never had much luck with the Mantua power truck, but the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
original Penn Line with the four wheel drive was terrific.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
When they got rid of the frame and converted to 8 wheel drive with the motor 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
mounted on one truck it was the beginning of the end for Penn Line (there 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
was a thread about this a few months back.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
There's a couple 1950's Hobbytowns running on my layout right now, but I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
will have to admit that one of my Revell NW-2's is sitting on an Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Chassis, and the other one's on a proto-power west.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In tests that Kalmbach did, the Athearn rubber band drive actually 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
out-pulled most contemporary geared units, and if you mu'd 2 or 3 together 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
they smoothed each other out and eliminated the "jack rabbit" effect.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11739
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Added A Photo Album
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      It's there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
When you click on "photos" go over to the upper right hand corner and you'll 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
see "sort by".  The last option is "last modified".  Click on that and your 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
album will be the first one that comes up (until somebody else adds some 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
more photos).  Otherwise, if you sort by "album name" the albums are 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
alphabetical (that's why I put a "Z" in front of all my albums.  As 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
moderator I didn't want to hog the space so I set it so all my photos are at 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the end.)  At the BOTTOM of the page, you'll see "first / previous / next / 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
last".  That let's you navigate through to find the album you want (there's 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
only 160 at last count).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
BTW, nice looking collection.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "corlissbs" <corlissbs@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 5:25 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Added A Photo Album
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I added a photo album called New Haven Collectables, with 4 pics of a part 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>of my collection.  Unfortunately, I didn't put in enough text on 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>manufacturers.  Hope you can find the album.  I can't.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11740
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      When the Mantua F7 with the power truck came out, our local hobby shop 
tried to wear one out by running it while they were open.  I don't think 
they wore it out.  On Saturdays, I used to visit the Hobbytown of Boston 
shop.  They did the same thing-try to wear out one of their diesels.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11741
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
Hobbytown, Athearn-Globe geared drives, and Varney F3 with the metal
enclosed gear boxes with removable axles were the best running diesel
motive power I ever used in my early HO days and since...  And I have
at one time or another repaired all types.  The early 4 wheel drive
Pennline F7 with the spring shaft ran well but I did not own any of
them... Just repaired them.  I devised a way to disassemble the Mantua
early metal powered truck so that I could replace the plastic wheels
that had cracked, thoroughly clean the motor and polish the
commutator.  When they are serviced and reworked properly they do run
quite well.  The first Mantua I gave this treatment is still running
well today.  I used it and a couple Athearn F7's to pull my friction
track cleaning cars (3 extra weighted friction Revell cars together). 
I really liked the Athearn F7 repowered with the Pittman belt drive
motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
American Flyer HO 12 wheel Alco's can be tuned to run well also but the
pickup system is hard to keep clean and contacting well... Their motors
and gearing worked well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
My best steamers to this day are early Mantua 2-8-2 mechanisms under
Hobbyline Berkshire boilers, Varney Old Lady Consol, A Sims powered
4-8-4 made from Hobbyline Berk boilers, a LMB 2-8-4 and a rebuilt
2-10-4 (all decked out for C&O).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have an Akane 2-6-6-6 for which I need a front porch/pilot assembly
and 2, 2-8-8-2 articulateds rebuilt from AHM units.  They will all be
lettered for C&O if I live long enough.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                      ========================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: <corlissbs@aol. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 4:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Member
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yesterday I ran a Revell switcher (one without the clutch) and a
Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> switcher. I sure remembered why I appreciated Athearn! Their first
gear
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> drives were so much better than the competition. Heck, even the
rubber 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> band
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> drive was better than the competition. I have examples of all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> drives. Being a mechanical engineer, the evolution of drive
mechanisms
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> always interested me. Penn Line had a very good drive and when
Mantua
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> introduced their F7 with the self contained power truck, it was
top of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the RTR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> train line. That would have been about 1961. Of course back then
the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> best by
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> far was Hobbytown of Boston, if you could afford it. I still have
my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 1961
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mantua F7 and it still runs great. Very well broken in!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
OTOH, if it even motivates down the track under it's own power it's a
better 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
runner than most of the junk coming from China today that won't even
move 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
after about 6 months or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Back on topic, I never had much luck with the Mantua power truck, but
the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
original Penn Line with the four wheel drive was terrific.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
When they got rid of the frame and converted to 8 wheel drive with the
motor 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
mounted on one truck it was the beginning of the end for Penn Line
(there 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
was a thread about this a few months back.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
There's a couple 1950's Hobbytowns running on my layout right now, but
I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
will have to admit that one of my Revell NW-2's is sitting on an
Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Chassis, and the other one's on a proto-power west.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
In tests that Kalmbach did, the Athearn rubber band drive actually 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
out-pulled most contemporary geared units, and if you mu'd 2 or 3
together 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
they smoothed each other out and eliminated the "jack rabbit" effect.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11742
						From: corlissbs
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      One of the strangest locos inmy collection is the farthest right in the 3rd shelf in photo 1.  It is a Rosko.  A knock off of the early Globe/Athearn body with the two "pimples" to locate the number boards, which were never applied.  A knock off Mantua color scheme and a paper nose sticker.  The gear towers were a knock off of the early Globe/Athearn towers with a spring to drive each.  Made in Japan is all that is cast in the bottom of the fuel tank in raised letters.  But their bos art was better than fantastic.  I can photograph the box.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11743
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      The Athearn Hi-F belt drives actually damped out 
the differences when MU'ing--gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 6:42 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New 
  Member
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hobbytown, 
  Athearn-Globe geared drives, and Varney F3 with the metal enclosed gear boxes 
  with removable axles were the best running diesel motive power I ever used in 
  my early HO days and since...  And I have at one time or another repaired 
  all types.  The early 4 wheel drive Pennline F7 with the spring shaft ran 
  well but I did not own any of them... Just repaired them.  I devised a 
  way to disassemble the Mantua early metal powered truck so that I could 
  replace the plastic wheels that had cracked, thoroughly clean the motor and 
  polish the commutator.  When they are serviced and reworked properly they 
  do run quite well.  The first Mantua I gave this treatment is still 
  running well today.  I used it and a couple Athearn F7's to pull my 
  friction track cleaning cars (3 extra weighted friction Revell cars 
  together).  I really liked the Athearn F7 repowered with the Pittman belt 
  drive motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      American Flyer HO 12 wheel Alco's can be tuned to run well 
  also but the pickup system is hard to keep clean and contacting well... Their 
  motors and gearing worked well.

                                                                                                                                                                                      My best steamers to this day are early 
  Mantua 2-8-2 mechanisms under Hobbyline Berkshire boilers, Varney Old Lady 
  Consol, A Sims powered 4-8-4 made from Hobbyline Berk boilers, a LMB 2-8-4 and 
  a rebuilt 2-10-4 (all decked out for C&O).

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have an Akane 2-6-6-6 
  for which I need a front porch/pilot assembly and 2, 2-8-8-2 articulateds 
  rebuilt from AHM units.  They will all be lettered for C&O if I live 
  long enough.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Staton in 
  VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      ========================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      Don 
  Dellmann wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: <corlissbs@aol. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 
    Friday, September 11, 2009 4:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New 
    Member

                                                                                                                                                                                      > Yesterday I ran a Revell switcher (one without the 
    clutch) and a Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                      > switcher. I sure remembered why I appreciated 
    Athearn! Their first gear
                                                                                                                                                                                      > drives were so much better than the 
    competition. Heck, even the rubber 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > band
                                                                                                                                                                                      > drive was better 
    than the competition. I have examples of all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
    drives. Being a mechanical engineer, the evolution of drive 
    mechanisms
                                                                                                                                                                                      > always interested me. Penn Line had a very good drive and 
    when Mantua
                                                                                                                                                                                      > introduced their F7 with the self contained power truck, 
    it was top of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > the RTR
                                                                                                                                                                                      > train line. That would have been 
    about 1961. Of course back then the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > best by
                                                                                                                                                                                      > far was 
    Hobbytown of Boston, if you could afford it. I still have my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
    1961
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Mantua F7 and it still runs great. Very well broken 
    in!
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      OTOH, if it 
    even motivates down the track under it's own power it's a better 
                                                                                                                                                                                      runner 
    than most of the junk coming from China today that won't even move 
                                                                                                                                                                                      after 
    about 6 months or so.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Back on topic, I never had much luck with the 
    Mantua power truck, but the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      original Penn Line with the four wheel drive 
    was terrific.
                                                                                                                                                                                      When they got rid of the frame and converted to 8 wheel 
    drive with the motor 
                                                                                                                                                                                      mounted on one truck it was the beginning of the 
    end for Penn Line (there 
                                                                                                                                                                                      was a thread about this a few months 
    back.)

                                                                                                                                                                                      There's a couple 1950's Hobbytowns running on my layout right 
    now, but I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      will have to admit that one of my Revell NW-2's is sitting on 
    an Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chassis, and the other one's on a proto-power west.

                                                                                                                                                                                      In 
    tests that Kalmbach did, the Athearn rubber band drive actually 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      out-pulled most contemporary geared units, and if you mu'd 2 or 3 
    together 
                                                                                                                                                                                      they smoothed each other out and eliminated the "jack rabbit" 
    effect.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                      Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery 
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.91/2363 - Release 
  Date: 09/11/09 09:15:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11744
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a Hobbytown RSD-4 that a friend gave 
me--would outpull;; at least four average Athearns on the club layout in 
Salinas.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 6:42 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New 
  Member
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hobbytown, 
  Athearn-Globe geared drives, and Varney F3 with the metal enclosed gear boxes 
  with removable axles were the best running diesel motive power I ever used in 
  my early HO days and since...  And I have at one time or another repaired 
  all types.  The early 4 wheel drive Pennline F7 with the spring shaft ran 
  well but I did not own any of them... Just repaired them.  I devised a 
  way to disassemble the Mantua early metal powered truck so that I could 
  replace the plastic wheels that had cracked, thoroughly clean the motor and 
  polish the commutator.  When they are serviced and reworked properly they 
  do run quite well.  The first Mantua I gave this treatment is still 
  running well today.  I used it and a couple Athearn F7's to pull my 
  friction track cleaning cars (3 extra weighted friction Revell cars 
  together).  I really liked the Athearn F7 repowered with the Pittman belt 
  drive motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      American Flyer HO 12 wheel Alco's can be tuned to run well 
  also but the pickup system is hard to keep clean and contacting well... Their 
  motors and gearing worked well.

                                                                                                                                                                                      My best steamers to this day are early 
  Mantua 2-8-2 mechanisms under Hobbyline Berkshire boilers, Varney Old Lady 
  Consol, A Sims powered 4-8-4 made from Hobbyline Berk boilers, a LMB 2-8-4 and 
  a rebuilt 2-10-4 (all decked out for C&O).

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have an Akane 2-6-6-6 
  for which I need a front porch/pilot assembly and 2, 2-8-8-2 articulateds 
  rebuilt from AHM units.  They will all be lettered for C&O if I live 
  long enough.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Staton in 
  VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      ========================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      Don 
  Dellmann wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: <corlissbs@aol. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: 
    Friday, September 11, 2009 4:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New 
    Member

                                                                                                                                                                                      > Yesterday I ran a Revell switcher (one without the 
    clutch) and a Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                      > switcher. I sure remembered why I appreciated 
    Athearn! Their first gear
                                                                                                                                                                                      > drives were so much better than the 
    competition. Heck, even the rubber 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > band
                                                                                                                                                                                      > drive was better 
    than the competition. I have examples of all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
    drives. Being a mechanical engineer, the evolution of drive 
    mechanisms
                                                                                                                                                                                      > always interested me. Penn Line had a very good drive and 
    when Mantua
                                                                                                                                                                                      > introduced their F7 with the self contained power truck, 
    it was top of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > the RTR
                                                                                                                                                                                      > train line. That would have been 
    about 1961. Of course back then the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > best by
                                                                                                                                                                                      > far was 
    Hobbytown of Boston, if you could afford it. I still have my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
    1961
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Mantua F7 and it still runs great. Very well broken 
    in!
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      OTOH, if it 
    even motivates down the track under it's own power it's a better 
                                                                                                                                                                                      runner 
    than most of the junk coming from China today that won't even move 
                                                                                                                                                                                      after 
    about 6 months or so.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Back on topic, I never had much luck with the 
    Mantua power truck, but the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      original Penn Line with the four wheel drive 
    was terrific.
                                                                                                                                                                                      When they got rid of the frame and converted to 8 wheel 
    drive with the motor 
                                                                                                                                                                                      mounted on one truck it was the beginning of the 
    end for Penn Line (there 
                                                                                                                                                                                      was a thread about this a few months 
    back.)

                                                                                                                                                                                      There's a couple 1950's Hobbytowns running on my layout right 
    now, but I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      will have to admit that one of my Revell NW-2's is sitting on 
    an Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chassis, and the other one's on a proto-power west.

                                                                                                                                                                                      In 
    tests that Kalmbach did, the Athearn rubber band drive actually 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      out-pulled most contemporary geared units, and if you mu'd 2 or 3 
    together 
                                                                                                                                                                                      they smoothed each other out and eliminated the "jack rabbit" 
    effect.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                      Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery 
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.91/2363 - Release 
  Date: 09/11/09 09:15:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11745
						From: sprinthag
						Date: 9/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Early Diesel Drives
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have a Hobbytown RSD-4 that a friend gave me--would outpull;; at least four average Athearns on the club layout in Salinas.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: Donald R. Staton 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 6:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Member
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Hobbytown, Athearn-Globe geared drives, and Varney F3 with the metal enclosed gear boxes with removable axles were the best running diesel motive power I ever used in my early HO days and since...  And I have at one time or another repaired all types.  The early 4 wheel drive Pennline F7 with the spring shaft ran well but I did not own any of them... Just repaired them.  I devised a way to disassemble the Mantua early metal powered truck so that I could replace the plastic wheels that had cracked, thoroughly clean the motor and polish the commutator.  When they are serviced and reworked properly they do run quite well.  The first Mantua I gave this treatment is still running well today.  I used it and a couple Athearn F7's to pull my friction track cleaning cars (3 extra weighted friction Revell cars together).  I really liked the Athearn F7 repowered with the Pittman belt drive motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   American Flyer HO 12 wheel Alco's can be tuned to run well also but the pickup system is hard to keep clean and contacting well... Their motors and gearing worked well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      I had a very early Mantua Shark. It had the first Mantua self contained power truck and ran beautiful. Very smooth and quiet. Unfortunately it needed another power truck to get eight wheel drive (which was ordered but never received) and then there was the problem with the front axle (by direction of travel) lifting on heavy pulls, overly long wheel bases, etc. Mantua was my favorite manufacturer back then but the truth is Mantua never had a truly good diesel drive until the conventional one motor, eight wheel drive with flywheel units introduced almost at the end of production. You can go through the list of Mantua diesel drives from that one to the gimbal mounts and into the Tyco crap spur gear era and back. They all fell short compared to the better Varney drives, Athearn gear drives and, of course, the Cadillac, Hobbytown.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11746
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 9/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Added A Photo Album
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I found your album no problem ... nice collection! I collect Marx HO and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
they did a lot of New Haven. I saw your Marx switcher in both paint schemes. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Is one of your black cabooses Marx? I've only seen it in pictures so I can't 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
tell. Also, do you have both versions of the Marx box car?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
www.prrh.org
                                                                                                                                                                                      
www.marx-trains.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "corlissbs" <corlissbs@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 6:25 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Added A Photo Album
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I added a photo album called New Haven Collectables, with 4 pics of a part 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>of my collection.  Unfortunately, I didn't put in enough text on 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>manufacturers.  Hope you can find the album.  I can't.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11747
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 9/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Varney Streamlined Hudson Project by toptrain2100
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Very neatly-done  project, and thoughtful modeling to boot.  The   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
addition of the Belpaire firebox is pretty imaginative.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The tender looks like a Penn Line  or Bowser tender from a T-1, or at  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
least the aluminum sides from same. If so, it is a fine choice,  will  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
be a very fine match and natural  fit, and the appearance  will be  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
vastly superior to that supplied at one time by Varney.    The only  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
hitch is that  the original slightly-narrow Penn Line tender has to be  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
widened to match the slightly- excessive width of the Varney  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
locomotive body. I do not know whether this fault was corrected by  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Bowser in later years when they changed the T-1 casting.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The cast bronze Varney body is not easy to work with, and It is a huge  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
heat sink for any attempted soldering.   High-amp resistance soldering  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
might work, however.  I would be curious as to what method was used to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
secure the new running board fairing in place. Withstanding routine  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
handling is a major concern because this is exactly where one  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
naturally grabs the locomotive. Is the fairing brass or styrene?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
A challenge is drilling the hole for the headlight in the exact right  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
place so that it is not off-center  The 'apex' of the cast bulbous  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
smokebox nose is very slightly asymmetrical (not uncommon with the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
relatively coarse sand castings at that time), so just marking out   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the apex and drilling there can be a chancy affair.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Again, a very handsome  project.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Okoboji, IA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11748
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: project progress
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                        All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm getting closer 
to finishing my pre war Mantua Consolidation as the pictures will show. Thanks 
to Sean N I was able to get a mostly complete engine that contained all the 
major parts. I had to compromise and manufacture, as close as possible, some of 
the smaller items.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          The pilot / lead truck was made 
using the Mantua parts sheet on HO seeker to as close to original as 
possible.The boiler front is Varney but has been reworked to closely match the 
Mantua front. I manufactured the headlight and holder to closely match the 
original. Two parts of the tender front ( the front of the coal hopper and the 
horizontal piece coming out from it that has the legs to support it on the 
frame) were scrounged from another Mantua pre war tender body. I cheated a 
little on the power reverse (at least I think that's what it is called ) as I 
had to use a Varney part. The big difference is the control arm is on mine but 
the original Mantua part had none.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        I am in the process of detailing the both 
sides of the boiler. The left side, if sitting in the cab, is almost complete. 
All piping has been repaired or added to match the Mantua HOseeker picture and 
Sean's pre war Mantua Consy. It still needs the handrail and one small step 
added that sits on post atop the steam chest. The other side ( right side ) is 
where I am working now. Have started to add missing detail. Two walk ways and 
one large air tank are ready to be mounted. Some missing piping and handrail for 
this side needed also.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         I have the complete original valve 
gear, side and main rods ready to install
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         The tender is ready to go . The seams 
I repaired need some cleaning up plus a ladder on the back and 4 corner 
handrails. I cheated on the steps for the tender. It called for 4 brass U shaped 
steps but I added already made stirrup steps.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         While it isn't 100 % original it will 
be extremely close. When / if I find the original Mantua larger size 6 volt 
motor it will be run and added to my collection. The decision to paint is still 
up in the air as I like to show what it was originally made of.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11749
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 9/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Cox HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I know Cox falls a little outside of our time frame but at one time somone posted a link to a site that had most of the manufacturers listed. After a hard-drive repair my favorites are gone and after a search I didn't see it in our links section. If anyone has it, I would appreciate it. I have acquired some Cox locos and was curious about their history.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt Coleman
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11750
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 9/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Cox HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      A quick Google search yields this  result for Cox:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://ho-scaletrains.net/coxtrainsresource/index.html

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sat, 9/12/09, mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Cox HO
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Saturday, September 12, 2009, 10:30 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I know Cox falls a little outside of our time frame but at one time somone posted a link to a site that had most of the manufacturers listed. After a hard-drive repair my favorites are gone and after a search I didn't see it in our links section. If anyone has it, I would appreciate it. I have acquired some Cox locos and was curious about their history.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      Matt Coleman



                                                                                                                                                                                      ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11751
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 9/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Added A Photo Album
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Steve:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I do have both versions of the Marx boxcar.  For Marx cabeese, I have 
the brown bay window, the red/white and black cupola caboose, the brown work 
caboose, with the water tank and the brown work caboose with the white 
NH.  I am missing the black Marx caboose and one brown Marx 
caboose.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11752
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Cast White Metal Alco S2 1000hp Switcher ID Needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At a train show today, I found a Alco 1000 h.p. switcher that looks a bit familiar, from the late 1940's magazines, but can't place it. It is certainly not the familiar Walthers High Hood Alco, nor the decades later Cary Alco S-1 unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In fact, it generally resembles the Western Models unit pictured in the instructions you provided on HO Seeker, but is made of solid cast lead based white metal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.hoseeker.org/westernmodels/westernmodels1000hpswitcher.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The locomotive hood, cab and frame weigh in at 13+ ounces without motor or trucks, but did include sideframes I have also not identified yet.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Any ideas of manufactures I should be checking?  I thought of Miller and Super Scale, but have not found a match yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11753
						From: mmattjcoleman
						Date: 9/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Cox HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thank you! That is perfect. I appreciate the help (and the Google skills) -- my search turned up a bunch of eBay listings and nothing on the history.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sorry to use the bandwidth.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
ps: for those who haven't looked, be sure to look over Jim's photos of the pre-war Mantua consolidation. That is a stunning restoration/rebuild.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> A quick Google search yields this  result for Cox:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://ho-scaletrains.net/coxtrainsresource/index.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- On Sat, 9/12/09, mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: mmattjcoleman <mattjcoleman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Cox HO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Saturday, September 12, 2009, 10:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I know Cox falls a little outside of our time frame but at one time somone posted a link to a site that had most of the manufacturers listed. After a hard-drive repair my favorites are gone and after a search I didn't see it in our links section. If anyone has it, I would appreciate it. I have acquired some Cox locos and was curious about their history.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Matt Coleman
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11754
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: "Modern Models" Cast White Metal Alco S2 1000hp Switcher?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H., and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I burned more midnight oil last night in trying to ID my latest train show acquisition, a cast metal Alco S2 1000 switcher.  I had already discounted the sheet brass Western Models unit, but mentioned remembering Miller or Super Scale -- and of course on looking up those well illustrated ads in an Oct. 1947 MR, quickly saw they were for S Scale Alco switchers, although Super Scale later did an EMC SW-1 switcher in HO. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It took a few more pages in that October 1947 MR issue to find what I dimly remembered as well, a 1/4 page ad on page 823 with a cut of a prototype Alco S-2.  "SEE - The New 1000 h.p. Alco Diesel Switcher, HO Gauge" the ad shouted.  The rest of the ad stated, "FEATURES: High-pressure, zinc alloy die casting of exceptionally high fidelity; true depth truck frames (never before offered in such great detail); all cab windows in casting.  Insructions furnished to mount varying types of truck mechanisams. OCTOBER (1947) DELIVERY."  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The ad closed with "A Precision Model Railroad Product by Modern Models - Distrubuted by Busy B's Model Hobby Shop, 3410 Fort St., Lincoln Park 25, Mich."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In December 1947, their ad on page 1044 mentioned that 4 and 8 wheel drive would be available and set the price for the HO kit was set at $18.50 unpowered, and also announced an S Scale version as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It seems much the same ad alternated every other month or so until June 1948 MR, when Busy B's was advertising both Modern Models new power trucks and the Alco diesel switchers.  The power truck looked similar to Varny's, but the most interesting copy was in the small print:  Due to unforseen circumstances, our products have been delayed. As of this writing (May 1) delivery date of HO samples will be May 10)."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The price of the HO complete kit, less power was lowered to $14.50 and "with single power DC 60 motor $29.95."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The next month, July 1948, the ad was now in the name of "Modern Models" same address as "Busy B's previous ads, 3410 Fort St., Lincoln Park 25, Mich.  The ad, on page 514, said in the fine print:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Castings are now dribbling in.  There the most beautiful high pressure die castings you ever saw.  Production complications have held us up for a long time, but we are definitely on the go now. At present, only HO kits are available. S guage soon."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The next month, August 1948, Busy B's had a very tiny ad on page 568, simply listing the HO and S kits.  After that, I could find no additional ads for either Busy B or Modern Models in the 1948 MR's.  There were no product reviews listed in the Composit Product Review Guide under either firm's name.   
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So now I have to confirm or disprove that my model is one of these.  The casting is well done and has sharp details, but the details, such as the two round two front sand box covers on the front top of the hood stand out fairly proud.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Perhaps Modern Models is listen in Lenehan's.  Does anyone else have one of these switchers, with or without power trucks? I do have sideframes, still trying to ID them.  (Can't post a digital photo yet or scan a regular print.)  The only paperwork in the box was an illustrated instruction sheet for an Arden Alco road switcher and a Varney add-on power truck.  A loose DC 60 motor and add on geared Varney truck was also in the Globe diesel box the model was packed in.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I appreciate any help in ID'ing this find.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> At a train show today, I found a Alco 1000 h.p. switcher that looks a bit familiar, from the late 1940's magazines, but can't place it. It is certainly not the familiar Walthers High Hood Alco, nor the decades later Cary Alco S-1 unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> In fact, it generally resembles the Western Models unit pictured in the instructions you provided on HO Seeker, but is made of solid cast lead based white metal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.hoseeker.org/westernmodels/westernmodels1000hpswitcher.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The locomotive hood, cab and frame weigh in at 13+ ounces without motor or trucks, but did include sideframes I have also not identified yet.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Any ideas of manufactures I should be checking?  I thought of Miller and Super Scale, but have not found a match yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11755
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Cast White Metal Alco S2 1000hp Switcher ID Needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                 I only 
know of two Super Scale switchers that were made, both I have. A 600 H P and a 
1000 H P but they are both sheet brass ( possibly etched copper 
? ) construction. Miller is a name unknown to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Nothing else 
made from cast lead is ringing a bell for me right now. The Western Models, 
sheet brass, item on HO Seeker is the only one by that company I have 
ever found which doesn't mean there weren't others.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             There was an 
S-2 type engine made around 1947 by Modern Models. I have never seen it nor 
heard what it was made of. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             How about 
J S Cambron who made bodies only around 1947 ?  I know they made 
cast brass and die cast but who knows what else.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Hobbies 
Inc another possibility although both they and J S Cambron produced larger type 
diesels like PAs and E units but were from the post war era.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Although the item you 
seek I D for is cast lead I think it's important to mention when the term 
brass is used I'm not a metallurgist and it could be brass to bronze or any 
alloy in between.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              Sorry not much 
help  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 10:53 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Cast White Metal 
  Alco S2 1000hp Switcher ID Needed
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H.,

                                                                                                                                                                                      At a train show today, I found a Alco 1000 h.p. switcher 
  that looks a bit familiar, from the late 1940's magazines, but can't place it. 
  It is certainly not the familiar Walthers High Hood Alco, nor the decades 
  later Cary Alco S-1 unit.

                                                                                                                                                                                      In fact, it generally resembles the Western 
  Models unit pictured in the instructions you provided on HO Seeker, but is 
  made of solid cast lead based white metal.

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.hoseeker .org/westernmode ls/westernmodels 1000hpswitcher. jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                      The 
  locomotive hood, cab and frame weigh in at 13+ ounces without motor or trucks, 
  but did include sideframes I have also not identified yet. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Any ideas 
  of manufactures I should be checking? I thought of Miller and Super Scale, but 
  have not found a match yet.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11756
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: "Modern Models" Cast White Metal Alco S2 1000hp Switcher?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                 It  
looks like we were sending Emails at the same time. I'm glad you found Modern 
Models and you believe that is what it is. I think you are on the right 
track.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Hey I should 
get one point for listing it as my first choice as to what it might be. The 
listing in Lenahans only states 1947 and Kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             As I mentioned 
in the previous E mail Super Scale make at least two HO Alco type ( 
600 HP and 1000 HP) switchers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Will be 
interested to hear more about your find as you learn about it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 9:22 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: "Modern Models" 
  Cast White Metal Alco S2 1000hp Switcher?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H., and All,

                                                                                                                                                                                      I burned more midnight oil last night in trying 
  to ID my latest train show acquisition, a cast metal Alco S2 1000 switcher. I 
  had already discounted the sheet brass Western Models unit, but mentioned 
  remembering Miller or Super Scale -- and of course on looking up those well 
  illustrated ads in an Oct. 1947 MR, quickly saw they were for S Scale Alco 
  switchers, although Super Scale later did an EMC SW-1 switcher in HO. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      It took a few more pages in that October 1947 MR issue to find what I 
  dimly remembered as well, a 1/4 page ad on page 823 with a cut of a prototype 
  Alco S-2. "SEE - The New 1000 h.p. Alco Diesel Switcher, HO Gauge" the ad 
  shouted. The rest of the ad stated, "FEATURES: High-pressure, zinc alloy die 
  casting of exceptionally high fidelity; true depth truck frames (never before 
  offered in such great detail); all cab windows in casting. Insructions 
  furnished to mount varying types of truck mechanisams. OCTOBER (1947) 
  DELIVERY." 

                                                                                                                                                                                      The ad closed with "A Precision Model Railroad Product by 
  Modern Models - Distrubuted by Busy B's Model Hobby Shop, 3410 Fort St., 
  Lincoln Park 25, Mich."

                                                                                                                                                                                      In December 1947, their ad on page 1044 
  mentioned that 4 and 8 wheel drive would be available and set the price for 
  the HO kit was set at $18.50 unpowered, and also announced an S Scale version 
  as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                      It seems much the same ad alternated every other month or so 
  until June 1948 MR, when Busy B's was advertising both Modern Models new power 
  trucks and the Alco diesel switchers. The power truck looked similar to 
  Varny's, but the most interesting copy was in the small print: Due to 
  unforseen circumstances, our products have been delayed. As of this writing 
  (May 1) delivery date of HO samples will be May 10)."

                                                                                                                                                                                      The price of the 
  HO complete kit, less power was lowered to $14.50 and "with single power DC 60 
  motor $29.95."

                                                                                                                                                                                      The next month, July 1948, the ad was now in the name of 
  "Modern Models" same address as "Busy B's previous ads, 3410 Fort St., Lincoln 
  Park 25, Mich. The ad, on page 514, said in the fine print:
                                                                                                                                                                                      Castings are 
  now dribbling in. There the most beautiful high pressure die castings you ever 
  saw. Production complications have held us up for a long time, but we are 
  definitely on the go now. At present, only HO kits are available. S guage 
  soon."

                                                                                                                                                                                      The next month, August 1948, Busy B's had a very tiny ad on page 
  568, simply listing the HO and S kits. After that, I could find no additional 
  ads for either Busy B or Modern Models in the 1948 MR's. There were no product 
  reviews listed in the Composit Product Review Guide under either firm's name. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      So now I have to confirm or disprove that my model is one of these. 
  The casting is well done and has sharp details, but the details, such as the 
  two round two front sand box covers on the front top of the hood stand out 
  fairly proud. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Perhaps Modern Models is listen in Lenehan's. Does 
  anyone else have one of these switchers, with or without power trucks? I do 
  have sideframes, still trying to ID them. (Can't post a digital photo yet or 
  scan a regular print.) The only paperwork in the box was an illustrated 
  instruction sheet for an Arden Alco road switcher and a Varney add-on power 
  truck. A loose DC 60 motor and add on geared Varney truck was also in the 
  Globe diesel box the model was packed in.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I appreciate any help in 
  ID'ing this find.

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Jim 
  H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > At a train show today, I found a Alco 1000 h.p. switcher 
  that looks a bit familiar, from the late 1940's magazines, but can't place it. 
  It is certainly not the familiar Walthers High Hood Alco, nor the decades 
  later Cary Alco S-1 unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > In fact, it generally resembles the 
  Western Models unit pictured in the instructions you provided on HO Seeker, 
  but is made of solid cast lead based white metal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://www.hoseeker .org/westernmode ls/westernmodels 1000hpswitcher. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The locomotive hood, cab and frame weigh in at 13+ ounces without 
  motor or trucks, but did include sideframes I have also not identified yet. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Any ideas of manufactures I should be checking? I thought of 
  Miller and Super Scale, but have not found a match yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11757
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: "Modern Models" Cast White Metal Alco S2 1000hp Switcher
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim, H.!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Yes, we were sending emails at just about the same time.  I think you get more than one point as you knew about Modern Models right away!  Will try to get photos soon.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
And this is a good reminder to all that there are many good finds out there on both eBay and at local train shows.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
At the same show and from the same fellow that sold me the above switcher, I found a "junk" Bowser Challenger with complete valve gear and just about every other part I needed to restore mine for a fraction of the cost of new parts.  I think even the Andy Jackson I traded for the Challenger was smiling.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks Jim for the information.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            It  looks like we were sending Emails at the same time. I'm glad you found Modern Models and you believe that is what it is. I think you are on the right track.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        Hey I should get one point for listing it as my first choice as to what it might be. The listing in Lenahans only states 1947 and Kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        As I mentioned in the previous E mail Super Scale make at least two HO Alco type ( 600 HP and 1000 HP) switchers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        Will be interested to hear more about your find as you learn about it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 9:22 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: "Modern Models" Cast White Metal Alco S2 1000hp Switcher?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Hi Jim H., and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   I burned more midnight oil last night in trying to ID my latest train show acquisition, a cast metal Alco S2 1000 switcher. I had already discounted the sheet brass Western Models unit, but mentioned remembering Miller or Super Scale -- and of course on looking up those well illustrated ads in an Oct. 1947 MR, quickly saw they were for S Scale Alco switchers, although Super Scale later did an EMC SW-1 switcher in HO. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   It took a few more pages in that October 1947 MR issue to find what I dimly remembered as well, a 1/4 page ad on page 823 with a cut of a prototype Alco S-2. "SEE - The New 1000 h.p. Alco Diesel Switcher, HO Gauge" the ad shouted. The rest of the ad stated, "FEATURES: High-pressure, zinc alloy die casting of exceptionally high fidelity; true depth truck frames (never before offered in such great detail); all cab windows in casting. Insructions furnished to mount varying types of truck mechanisams. OCTOBER (1947) DELIVERY." 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   The ad closed with "A Precision Model Railroad Product by Modern Models - Distrubuted by Busy B's Model Hobby Shop, 3410 Fort St., Lincoln Park 25, Mich."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   In December 1947, their ad on page 1044 mentioned that 4 and 8 wheel drive would be available and set the price for the HO kit was set at $18.50 unpowered, and also announced an S Scale version as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   It seems much the same ad alternated every other month or so until June 1948 MR, when Busy B's was advertising both Modern Models new power trucks and the Alco diesel switchers. The power truck looked similar to Varny's, but the most interesting copy was in the small print: Due to unforseen circumstances, our products have been delayed. As of this writing (May 1) delivery date of HO samples will be May 10)."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   The price of the HO complete kit, less power was lowered to $14.50 and "with single power DC 60 motor $29.95."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   The next month, July 1948, the ad was now in the name of "Modern Models" same address as "Busy B's previous ads, 3410 Fort St., Lincoln Park 25, Mich. The ad, on page 514, said in the fine print:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Castings are now dribbling in. There the most beautiful high pressure die castings you ever saw. Production complications have held us up for a long time, but we are definitely on the go now. At present, only HO kits are available. S guage soon."
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   The next month, August 1948, Busy B's had a very tiny ad on page 568, simply listing the HO and S kits. After that, I could find no additional ads for either Busy B or Modern Models in the 1948 MR's. There were no product reviews listed in the Composit Product Review Guide under either firm's name. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   So now I have to confirm or disprove that my model is one of these. The casting is well done and has sharp details, but the details, such as the two round two front sand box covers on the front top of the hood stand out fairly proud. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Perhaps Modern Models is listen in Lenehan's. Does anyone else have one of these switchers, with or without power trucks? I do have sideframes, still trying to ID them. (Can't post a digital photo yet or scan a regular print.) The only paperwork in the box was an illustrated instruction sheet for an Arden Alco road switcher and a Varney add-on power truck. A loose DC 60 motor and add on geared Varney truck was also in the Globe diesel box the model was packed in.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   I appreciate any help in ID'ing this find.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > At a train show today, I found a Alco 1000 h.p. switcher that looks a bit familiar, from the late 1940's magazines, but can't place it. It is certainly not the familiar Walthers High Hood Alco, nor the decades later Cary Alco S-1 unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > In fact, it generally resembles the Western Models unit pictured in the instructions you provided on HO Seeker, but is made of solid cast lead based white metal.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > http://www.hoseeker.org/westernmodels/westernmodels1000hpswitcher.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > The locomotive hood, cab and frame weigh in at 13+ ounces without motor or trucks, but did include sideframes I have also not identified yet. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Any ideas of manufactures I should be checking? I thought of Miller and Super Scale, but have not found a match yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11758
						From: Jim Waterman
						Date: 9/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have to comment here - we had an Akane 2-6-6-6 
when I was a boy. We lashed up a 65 car train and it ran flawlessly up and down 
2 percent grades.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Shame that I don't have a pilot for 
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11759
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 9/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: New Member
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
Thanks Jim.  Someday I will find one or make one...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
==============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim Waterman wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I have to comment here - we had an
Akane 2-6-6-6 when I was a boy. We lashed up a 65 car train and it ran
flawlessly up and down 2 percent grades.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Shame that I don't have a pilot for
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11760
						From: corlissbs
						Date: 9/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Rosko Train Set Photo
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I added a pic of the Rosko train set and box cover to my New Haven photo folder.  They also had a box with a steam loco on it, but I do not have a pic of it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11761
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 9/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Rosko Train Set Photo
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      That is an interesting piece there Brad.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Never saw one before.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: corlissbs <corlissbs@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 1:27:35 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Rosko Train Set Photo

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I added a pic of the Rosko train set and box cover to my New Haven photo folder. They also had a box with a steam loco on it, but I do not have a pic of it.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      Franklin, WI


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11762
						From: sprinthag
						Date: 9/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Rosko Train Set Photo
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "corlissbs" <corlissbs@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I added a pic of the Rosko train set and box cover to my New Haven photo folder.  They also had a box with a steam loco on it, but I do not have a pic of it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Never saw a Rosko set afore. Interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Do they all come with a left big toe?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Saint Francis, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11763
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 9/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Rosko Train Set Photo
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Apparently, a Right Big toe too!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: sprinthag <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 2:42:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Rosko Train Set Photo

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "corlissbs" <corlissbs@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I added a pic of the Rosko train set and box cover to my New Haven photo folder. They also had a box with a steam loco on it, but I do not have a pic of it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      Never saw a Rosko set afore. Interesting.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Do they all come with a left big toe?

                                                                                                                                                                                      John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      Saint Francis, WI


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11764
						From: corlissbs
						Date: 9/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Turbo Express Progress
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I visited my well supplied hobby shop, with my broken Turbo Express prop and compared the prop to what is sold.  The pitch is definately that of a boat prop, so an airplane prop won't do.  I bought a cheap ($1.39) tow blade, plastic boat prop to try it.  Had to machine a filler hub and press it in.  Handy to have a lathe!  The contraption does now move down the track by itself.  Not very fast, however. Now that I know that much, I can order a three or four blade prop.  A little more costly, as it is brass, but the extra blade should give it more push.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11765
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 9/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Rosko Train Set Photo
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      That's his right toe.  You'd never make it as a square dancer.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "sprinthag" <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 1:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Rosko Train Set Photo
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "corlissbs" <corlissbs@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I added a pic of the Rosko train set and box cover to my New Haven photo 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> folder.  They also had a box with a steam loco on it, but I do not have a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> pic of it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Never saw a Rosko set afore. Interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Do they all come with a left big toe?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Saint Francis, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11766
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 9/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Turbo Express Progress
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I hadn't thought of boat props.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for the suggestion !!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Sep 15, 2009, at 5:14 PM, corlissbs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I visited my well supplied hobby shop, with my broken Turbo Express  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> prop and compared the prop to what is sold.  The pitch is definately  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that of a boat prop, so an airplane prop won't do.  I bought a cheap  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ($1.39) tow blade, plastic boat prop to try it.  Had to machine a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> filler hub and press it in.  Handy to have a lathe!  The contraption  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> does now move down the track by itself.  Not very fast, however. Now  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that I know that much, I can order a three or four blade prop.  A  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> little more costly, as it is brass, but the extra blade should give  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> it more push.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Franklin, WI 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11767
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 9/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Turbo Express Progress
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I went back to the hobby shop today and ordered a four blade, brass boat 
prop that should be perfect.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11768
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: trying again
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               Do 
you have a motor like this, or know anyone that has one, and would like to sell 
it ? I'm sure we can make a deal. If the original brass worm gear is on the 
shaft, it is worth more. Contact me off site at jimheck@... if you do.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11769
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: trying again
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry Jim, have nothing like that here. W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          Do you have a motor like this, or know anyone that has one, and would like to sell it ? I'm sure we can make a deal. If the original brass worm gear is on the shaft, it is worth more. Contact me off site at jimheck@... if you do.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11770
						From: Fred Hultberg
						Date: 9/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Turbo/Prop
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Best luck, Brad...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Boat props are made for water, which as you of course know, is much denser than air.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Note the construction of air props, which tend to be long and narrow(somewhat like tongue depressors) because they need to "get" lots of air to develop thrust(which is needed to pull/push a train. They'd break under load in water, whereas water props may not catch enough air to work well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Let us know if/how it works out, OK?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Fred hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut®)

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Thu, 9/17/09, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Digest Number 1725
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Thursday, September 17, 2009, 8:50 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      There is 1 message in this issue.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Topics in this digest:

                                                                                                                                                                                      1a. Re: Turbo Express Progress    
                                                                                                                                                                                          From: corlissbs@...


                                                                                                                                                                                      Message
                                                                                                                                                                                      ________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      1a. Re: Turbo Express Progress
                                                                                                                                                                                          Posted by: "corlissbs@..." corlissbs@... corlissbs
                                                                                                                                                                                          Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:56 pm ((PDT))

                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike:
                                                                                                                                                                                      I went back to the hobby shop today and ordered a four blade, brass boat  
                                                                                                                                                                                      prop that should be perfect.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11771
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 9/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Turbo/Prop
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Fred:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I realize about the difference between the boat props and air props.  
The original prop was narrow but with the pitch of a boat prop.  There is 
nothing that could equal it in airplane props and like I said, the guy in the 
department is knowledgeable about his products.  I could try to build a 
prop, but not sure how that would turn out.  Or, I could try to narrow down 
the four blades on this prop and then re-balance it.  That is more 
possible.  I, too was concerned about it grabbing enough air.  I could 
set it up on the milling machine and take a cut across the back of it to thin 
the blades out.  May have to radius the cut edges.  We will see what 
works.  When the man at the hobby shop called Octura to see if they still 
made the four blade prop, the Octura man asked what kind of a boat I was using 
it on.  I think he seemed to think it was quite funny when told it was a 
model train car.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Franklin,WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11772
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 9/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Turbo/Prop
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I think the boat prop will probably work well because with the much deeper 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
pitch that of the the plane prop you'll have less speed but more power which 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
is what you need to overcome the friction of the rolling wheels and the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
weight of the car.  I'm afraid the airplane prop would spin too fast and not 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
do anything.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: <corlissbs@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 4:27 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Turbo/Prop
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Fred:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I realize about the difference between the boat props and air props.   The
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> original prop was narrow but with the pitch of a boat prop.  There is
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> nothing that could equal it in airplane props and like I said, the guy in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> department is knowledgeable about his products.  I could try to build a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> prop,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> but not sure how that would turn out.  Or, I could try to narrow down  the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> four blades on this prop and then re-balance it.  That is more  possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I, too was concerned about it grabbing enough air.  I could  set it up on 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> milling machine and take a cut across the back of it to thin  the blades
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> out.  May have to radius the cut edges.  We will see what  works.  When 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> man at the hobby shop called Octura to see if they still  made the four 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> blade
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> prop, the Octura man asked what kind of a boat I was using  it on.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> think
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> he seemed to think it was quite funny when told it was a  model train car.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Franklin,WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11773
						From: rrdrigg
						Date: 9/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Rivarossi 4-6-2
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I need a copy of the diagram for the newer Rivarossi 4-6-2 with the can motor. I need some parts for some of these steam engines but do not know the new part numbers. Hoseeker does not have these online. Can anyone help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11774
						From: Chris B
						Date: 9/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - castings on
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      This is a new ebay listing for a Garrett kit of castings for the Baldwin switcher. 

                                                                                                                                                                                       I'm not bidding, I have one of these assembled and running, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      but I've never seen an unassembled kit for this engine without a drivetrain & motor.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I thought this item might be of interest to the group, since  this variant might add to the intermittent discussion about  early diesel cast parts and business relationships between different makers of that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      ============
                                                                                                                                                                                      Item number:220482297855
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Newly listedGARRETT HO BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVE KIT-CASTING SET ONLY

                                                                                                                                                                                      		1 Bid$29.996d 1h 46m
                                                                                                                                                                                      desc: This is a casting kit only; no wheels; no trucks; and no motor. The
shell is made of heavy brass [ 12 oz. ] comes complete with all of the
accessories. The brass is in very good condition and the kit is in the
original box, with the directions.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Item condition:C-6  Very Good

                                                                                                                                                                                      Time left:6 days 1 hours (Sep 24, 200916:12:05 PDT)



                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11775
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chris B.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for showing this.  I have a similar unpowered boxed kit, including cast brass sideframes, but no floor.  Those original boxes were pretty flimsy, given the weight of the castings; my kit box is missing the plain end.  I have another Baldwin with the original flywheel drive and a third Baldwin that has a noticibly wider hood.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
That third one was fitted with a later hobbytown of Boston power chassis by a skilled machinist and pulls like a son of a gun.  But I'm really not sure where that wide hood version came from, Garrett or a later firm that contracted with Adams, or possibly Adams directly, as some have suggested here that they mave have offered items on their own or to other wholesalers.  I must get that new camera so that I can show more of my finds!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> This is a new ebay listing for a Garrett kit of castings for the Baldwin switcher. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I'm not bidding, I have one of these assembled and running, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> but I've never seen an unassembled kit for this engine without a drivetrain & motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I thought this item might be of interest to the group, since  this variant might add to the intermittent discussion about  early diesel cast parts and business relationships between different makers of that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ============
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Item number:220482297855
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  GARRETT HO BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVE KIT-CASTING SET ONLY 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  1 Bid $29.99 6d 1h 46m desc: This is a casting kit only; no wheels; no trucks; and no motor. The
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> shell is made of heavy brass [ 12 oz. ] comes complete with all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> accessories. The brass is in very good condition and the kit is in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> original box, with the directions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Item condition: C-6  Very Good 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Time left: 6 days 1 hours (Sep 24, 200916:12:05 PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11776
						From: corlissbs
						Date: 9/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Athearn Hustler Repower
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      For anyone who wants to repower an Athearn Hustler, there is an Accurate Lighting, Hustler repower kit on Ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/Accurate-Lighting-Athearn-Hustler-Replacement-Motor-Kit_W0QQitemZ270457978193QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item3ef88d3d51&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11777
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                 For 
those that might not know about this engine / company but would like to find out 
more about H J Garrett go to www.hoseeker.net  and under GARCO you 
will find information about this switcher including the kit now on Ebay. It 
originally sold for $16.50.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              Chris 
B     You mention you have this assembled and running  
.Did you drill the holes for handrails, etc.? Did you have diamond and titanium 
tipped drill bits for the job ?. Not only is this a very thick casting it is 
extremely hard (at least mine is). I have an assembled running model  but I 
gave up trying to drill the holes after to many broken bits. I 
didn't try to cut out the windows even though I have a mill. I have the 
dual drive with the larger Pittman motor version and with the weight of the body 
it pulls great. One thing more about the body casting. It has poor detail in the 
sense that it is not very distinct (raised). My observation from my one 
engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 6:50 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ebay listing for 
  Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - castings only
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chris B.,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for showing this. I have a similar unpowered 
  boxed kit, including cast brass sideframes, but no floor. Those original boxes 
  were pretty flimsy, given the weight of the castings; my kit box is missing 
  the plain end. I have another Baldwin with the original flywheel drive and a 
  third Baldwin that has a noticibly wider hood. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      That third one was 
  fitted with a later hobbytown of Boston power chassis by a skilled machinist 
  and pulls like a son of a gun. But I'm really not sure where that wide hood 
  version came from, Garrett or a later firm that contracted with Adams, or 
  possibly Adams directly, as some have suggested here that they mave have 
  offered items on their own or to other wholesalers. I must get that new camera 
  so that I can show more of my finds!

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > This is a new 
  ebay listing for a Garrett kit of castings for the Baldwin switcher. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I'm not bidding, I have one of these assembled and running, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  but I've never seen an unassembled kit for this engine without a drivetrain 
  & motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I thought this item might be of interest to the 
  group, since this variant might add to the intermittent discussion about early 
  diesel cast parts and business relationships between different makers of that 
  time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ============
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Item 
  number:220482297855
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > GARRETT HO BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVE KIT-CASTING 
  SET ONLY 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 1 Bid $29.99 6d 1h 46m desc: This is a casting kit only; no 
  wheels; no trucks; and no motor. The
                                                                                                                                                                                      > shell is made of heavy brass [ 12 
  oz. ] comes complete with all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > accessories. The brass is in very 
  good condition and the kit is in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > original box, with the 
  directions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Item condition: C-6 Very Good 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Time left: 6 days 1 hours (Sep 24, 200916:12:05 
  PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11778
						From: Chris B
						Date: 9/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      running without handrails Jim, mine was sold as is w/o box or detail parts.  The cast detail is crude and low, just as you say, but to me that is part of the charm.  I don't ever plan to paint it or cut out the windows, the patina is pretty appropriate for my own vintage layout in the making. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      One of my main projects is building and running a roster (based on the WWII era W&OD and its Rosslyn Va branch) that features 2-3% grades challenging  modified ultra heavy weight switchers from a slightly later era, (cary/hobbytown s-2's, and MEW 44T's, and Ivers 70Ts with modified hobbytown drives) 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I use the GARCO Baldwin, as it came from e-bay with the original drivetrain, to test grades on my layout in progress, if it can climb a grade alone, then I have something to measure my
 project engines against when they have to pull 3-4 metal varney
hoppers up the same grade.   

                                                                                                                                                                                      But that's just an excuse, the real reason I run it is because it is such a beast.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Because I've gotten bogged down building and modifying the benchwork and inclines, I've been doing more woodworking for the past several months than engine work.  (three decks around an 14 x 18 room, with continuous climbs around the
room from deck to deck,and multi deck staging in an adjacent utility
room)
                                                                                                                                                                                       I just won another big load of truscale track and crossovers on ebay, another part of the plan is to use vintage brass truscale for all visible track.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Because I realized I better build the layout while I had permission from the local mgmt, and not use the room as a giant engine shop till I retired in 3 years, I had to switch all work time from engines to the layout. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      so none of my project engines are anywhere close to handrail stage, I haven't even started on the Ivers kits, but the Garco keeps running up those grades and keeps me motivated.

                                                                                                                                                                                       If I was insistent on having handrails, since they wouldn't be
original anyway, and especially after hearing your experience, I think
I'd look for alternate approaches...

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have some old thin tarnished brass sheet, if I was going to try and avoid drilling the casting, maybe it would be worth trying to cut pieces that would match the footprint of the... uh...(running boards? deckplates? )  one long piece on each side and one short one on each end where the handrails are attached.  Maybe I could drill the sheet for handrail posts, solder those onto the plates and add the railings to the posts, all as a separate assembly, and then use something less permanent like CA to attach them to the original deck surfaces.

                                                                                                                                                                                      my excuse is going to be that a cheat method like this doesn't permanently alter the vintage engine...

                                                                                                                                                                                      not much chance of that happening, but now that I've brainstormed it, I might be able to use that approach on the cary, MEW, and Ivers shells.  they'll all need handrails eventually, and the W&OD had 6 s-2s, 3 44T's and 3 70Ts, so 
 rather than do all twelve engines the normal way, since these are all being built to run and the handrails will likely get some regular stress from handling or falling off grades...

                                                                                                                                                                                      it might be easier to make a jig for each cutting, drilling, and attaching handrail posts for each of the 3 engine types.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      all down the road though, I have to get them all built and running before they even need handrails!

                                                                                                                                                                                      back to the basement!

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 8:49:18 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - castings only

                                                                                                                                                                                      






 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                                 For 
those that might not know about this engine / company but would like to find out 
more about H J Garrett go to www.hoseeker. net  and under GARCO you 
will find information about this switcher including the kit now on Ebay. It 
originally sold for $16.50.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              Chris 
B     You mention you have this assembled and running  
.Did you drill the holes for handrails, etc.? Did you have diamond and titanium 
tipped drill bits for the job ?. Not only is this a very thick casting it is 
extremely hard (at least mine is). I have an assembled running model  but I 
gave up trying to drill the holes after to many broken bits. I 
didn't try to cut out the windows even though I have a mill. I have the 
dual drive with the larger Pittman motor version and with the weight of the body 
it pulls great. One thing more about the body casting. It has poor detail in the 
sense that it is not very distinct (raised). My observation from my one 
engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 6:50 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ebay listing for 
  Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - castings only
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chris B.,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for showing this. I have a similar unpowered 
  boxed kit, including cast brass sideframes, but no floor. Those original boxes 
  were pretty flimsy, given the weight of the castings; my kit box is missing 
  the plain end. I have another Baldwin with the original flywheel drive and a 
  third Baldwin that has a noticibly wider hood. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      That third one was 
  fitted with a later hobbytown of Boston power chassis by a skilled machinist 
  and pulls like a son of a gun. But I'm really not sure where that wide hood 
  version came from, Garrett or a later firm that contracted with Adams, or 
  possibly Adams directly, as some have suggested here that they mave have 
  offered items on their own or to other wholesalers. I must get that new camera 
  so that I can show more of my finds!

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > This is a new 
  ebay listing for a Garrett kit of castings for the Baldwin switcher. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I'm not bidding, I have one of these assembled and running, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  but I've never seen an unassembled kit for this engine without a drivetrain 
  & motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I thought this item might be of interest to the 
  group, since this variant might add to the intermittent discussion about early 
  diesel cast parts and business relationships between different makers of that 
  time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ============
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Item 
  number:220482297855
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > GARRETT HO BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVE KIT-CASTING 
  SET ONLY 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 1 Bid $29.99 6d 1h 46m desc: This is a casting kit only; no 
  wheels; no trucks; and no motor. The
                                                                                                                                                                                      > shell is made of heavy brass [ 12 
  oz. ] comes complete with all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > accessories. The brass is in very 
  good condition and the kit is in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      > original box, with the 
  directions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Item condition: C-6 Very Good 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Time left: 6 days 1 hours (Sep 24, 200916:12:05 
  PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11779
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim, Chris B. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The first assembled switcher body I found was at a show, almost tarnished black.  It had all handrail posts installed very neatly and narrow front cab windows neatly cut open as well as the side windows opened up, but the middle side window divider was removed.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
My second "wide hood" version had all handrails and stanchions installed including grab-iron ladders at the rear sides of the hood near the cab front.  The cab side windows are accurately milled, leaving the center window divider.  This is the one that came with the "professionally" installed hobbytown drive woth recesses neatly milled into the frame to accept the shortened hobbytown chassis. It also came with the original single motor dual truck drive which I used for my first assembled shell.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I mentioned that the hood on my second assembled unit is much wider.  The standard Garrett switcher's hood measures about 15/16" wide.  The wide hood version measures 1-1/8" wide, a very noticable difference. This also has a single quarter inch diameter turnmed brass stack installed near the cab, and a brass horn mounted on the cab front wall above the hood. Holes were drilled for end railings, but none came installed.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Does anyone else have or know of this wide-hood variety or have any information on it? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            For those that might not know about this engine / company but would like to find out more about H J Garrett go to www.hoseeker.net  and under GARCO you will find information about this switcher including the kit now on Ebay. It originally sold for $16.50.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         Chris B     You mention you have this assembled and running  .Did you drill the holes for handrails, etc.? Did you have diamond and titanium tipped drill bits for the job ?. Not only is this a very thick casting it is extremely hard (at least mine is). I have an assembled running model  but I gave up trying to drill the holes after to many broken bits. I didn't try to cut out the windows even though I have a mill. I have the dual drive with the larger Pittman motor version and with the weight of the body it pulls great. One thing more about the body casting. It has poor detail in the sense that it is not very distinct (raised). My observation from my one engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 6:50 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - castings only
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Hi Chris B.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Thanks for showing this. I have a similar unpowered boxed kit, including cast brass sideframes, but no floor. Those original boxes were pretty flimsy, given the weight of the castings; my kit box is missing the plain end. I have another Baldwin with the original flywheel drive and a third Baldwin that has a noticibly wider hood. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   That third one was fitted with a later hobbytown of Boston power chassis by a skilled machinist and pulls like a son of a gun. But I'm really not sure where that wide hood version came from, Garrett or a later firm that contracted with Adams, or possibly Adams directly, as some have suggested here that they mave have offered items on their own or to other wholesalers. I must get that new camera so that I can show more of my finds!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > This is a new ebay listing for a Garrett kit of castings for the Baldwin switcher. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > I'm not bidding, I have one of these assembled and running, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > but I've never seen an unassembled kit for this engine without a drivetrain & motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > I thought this item might be of interest to the group, since this variant might add to the intermittent discussion about early diesel cast parts and business relationships between different makers of that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > ============
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Item number:220482297855
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > GARRETT HO BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVE KIT-CASTING SET ONLY 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 1 Bid $29.99 6d 1h 46m desc: This is a casting kit only; no wheels; no trucks; and no motor. The
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > shell is made of heavy brass [ 12 oz. ] comes complete with all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > accessories. The brass is in very good condition and the kit is in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > original box, with the directions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Item condition: C-6 Very Good 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Time left: 6 days 1 hours (Sep 24, 200916:12:05 PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11780
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 9/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for posting this. I've saved the auction page and the image enlargements to a folder......... and they thought those couldn't be captured..........  8^)

                                                                                                                                                                                      I should make some shots of my complete version. I'm unsure if the masonite floor on mine is original. But at least it has a  quite suitable vintage drive that looks like the right one.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I misspoke, that's some type of primitive plywood used as the floor of my model. I'm convinced it's a type of plywood that has not been made for a very long time. It's -strange- .......

                                                                                                                                                                                      I see the unpowered kit has a cut brass floor. I got my un-named and unboxed model some 20 years ago, with no handrails or other add-on parts of any kind. Until very recently I had no idea how had made the models/

                                                                                                                                                                                      I had misplaced my camera for a while recently re-discovered it. I'll have to make some shots this weekend.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      On Sep 18, 2009, at 4:43 PM, Chris B wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                      This is a new ebay listing for a Garrett kit of castings for the Baldwin switcher. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm not bidding, I have one of these assembled and running, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      but I've never seen an unassembled kit for this engine without a drivetrain & motor.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I thought this item might be of interest to the group, since this variant might add to the intermittent discussion about early diesel cast parts and business relationships between different makers of that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      ============
                                                                                                                                                                                      Item number:220482297855
                                                                                                                                                                                      Newly listedGARRETT HO BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVE KIT-CASTING SET ONLY

                                                                                                                                                                                      		1 Bid$29.996d 1h 46m
                                                                                                                                                                                      desc: This is a casting kit only; no wheels; no trucks; and no motor. The shell is made of heavy brass [ 12 oz. ] comes complete with all of the accessories. The brass is in very good condition and the kit is in the original box, with the directions.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Item condition:C-6 Very Good

                                                                                                                                                                                      Time left:6 days 1 hours (Sep 24, 200916:12:05 PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11781
						From: Chris B
						Date: 9/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike, mine has an old plywood floor too.  Picture attached, also comparison of the inside of my shell and the ebay shell, either it's been milled differently by the maker or later....notice the tanks on mine.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I can't be sure if they are the same width, but I'd like to know if all of yours have tanks?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:38:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - castings only

                                                                                                                                                                                      






 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for posting this. I've saved the auction page and the image enlargements to a folder...... ... and they thought those couldn't be captured.... ......  8^)

                                                                                                                                                                                      I should make some shots of my complete version. I'm unsure if the masonite floor on mine is original. But at least it has a  quite suitable vintage drive that looks like the right one.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I misspoke, that's some type of primitive plywood used as the floor of my model. I'm convinced it's a type of plywood that has not been made for a very long time. It's -strange- .......

                                                                                                                                                                                      I see the unpowered kit has a cut brass floor. I got my un-named and unboxed model some 20 years ago, with no handrails or other add-on parts of any kind. Until very recently I
 had no idea how had made the models/

                                                                                                                                                                                      I had misplaced my camera for a while recently re-discovered it. I'll have to make some shots this weekend.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      O
                                                                                                                                                                                      ,___
                                                                                                                                                                                      
	
	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11782
						From: Chris B
						Date: 9/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike, those pictures of my model are from when I bought it. all I did to get it running was replace the tubing and screw the shell down.
                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm glad I shot inside the shell when I did, I'm not crazy about taking that unit apart too often.
                                                                                                                                                                                      If I get a chance this weekend, I'll measure the outside width.
                                                                                                                                                                                      From the comparison photo, I'd say it looks like it's narrower inside the shell than the ebay model.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Chris B
 <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 11:04:31 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - castings only [3 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                      






 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike, mine has an old plywood floor too.  Picture attached, also comparison of the inside of my shell and the ebay shell, either it's been milled differently by the maker or later....notice the tanks on mine.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I can't be sure if they are the same width, but I'd like to know if all of yours have tanks?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To:
 vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:38:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - castings only

                                                                                                                                                                                      






 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for posting this. I've saved the auction page and the image enlargements to a folder...... ... and they thought those couldn't be captured.... ......  8^)

                                                                                                                                                                                      I should make some shots of my complete version. I'm unsure if the masonite floor on mine is original. But at least it has a  quite suitable vintage drive that looks like the right one.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I misspoke, that's some type of primitive plywood used as the floor of my model. I'm convinced it's a type of plywood that has not been made for a very long time. It's -strange- .......

                                                                                                                                                                                      I see the unpowered kit has a cut brass floor. I got my un-named and unboxed model some 20 years ago, with no handrails or other add-on parts of any kind. Until very recently I
 had no idea how had made the models/

                                                                                                                                                                                      I had misplaced my camera for a while recently re-discovered it. I'll have to make some shots this weekend.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      O
                                                                                                                                                                                      ,___
                                                                                                                                                                                      
	
	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11783
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chris B., All of mine have their tanks, but the ones on the wide hood body casting with the hobbytown drive have been milled smooth on the inside to clear the drive chassis.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike, mine has an old plywood floor too.  Picture attached, also comparison of the inside of my shell and the ebay shell, either it's been milled differently by the maker or later....notice the tanks on mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I can't be sure if they are the same width, but I'd like to know if all of yours have tanks?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:38:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - castings only
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks for posting this. I've saved the auction page and the image enlargements to a folder...... ... and they thought those couldn't be captured.... ......  8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I should make some shots of my complete version. I'm unsure if the masonite floor on mine is original. But at least it has a  quite suitable vintage drive that looks like the right one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I misspoke, that's some type of primitive plywood used as the floor of my model. I'm convinced it's a type of plywood that has not been made for a very long time. It's -strange- .......
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I see the unpowered kit has a cut brass floor. I got my un-named and unboxed model some 20 years ago, with no handrails or other add-on parts of any kind. Until very recently I had no idea how had made the models/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I had misplaced my camera for a while recently re-discovered it. I'll have to make some shots this weekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Milwaukee, Wi 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> O
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ,___
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11784
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Mike B., Interesting that you mentioned the older "primative-style" plywood.  A dozen or more years ago, an uncle brought over some old wooden wine gift boxes he had scrounged from around as he thought they would make good storage from my old Flyer trains (they did) and one of them, the largest which did not have a hinged lid, had a top made of that same primative plywood.   I guess it would be easier today to recreate that GARCO floor by using some of the thin model-builders plywood available in the hobby shops for model aricraft or boats, though, than in trying to find a the right gift wine for the box wood instead of what's in the bottle!  LOL!  W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 and --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks for posting this. I've saved the auction page and the image  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> enlargements to a folder......... and they thought those couldn't be  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> captured..........  8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I should make some shots of my complete version. I'm unsure if the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> masonite floor on mine is original. But at least it has a  quite  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> suitable vintage drive that looks like the right one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I misspoke, that's some type of primitive plywood used as the floor of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> my model. I'm convinced it's a type of plywood that has not been made  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> for a very long time. It's -strange- .......
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I see the unpowered kit has a cut brass floor. I got my un-named and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> unboxed model some 20 years ago, with no handrails or other add-on  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> parts of any kind. Until very recently I had no idea how had made the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> models/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I had misplaced my camera for a while recently re-discovered it. I'll  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have to make some shots this weekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On Sep 18, 2009, at 4:43 PM, Chris B wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > This is a new ebay listing for a Garrett kit of castings for the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Baldwin switcher.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I'm not bidding, I have one of these assembled and running,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > but I've never seen an unassembled kit for this engine without a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > drivetrain & motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I thought this item might be of interest to the group, since this  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > variant might add to the intermittent discussion about early diesel  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > cast parts and business relationships between different makers of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ============
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Item number:220482297855
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 	
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > GARRETT HO BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVE KIT-CASTING SET ONLY
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 1 Bid	$29.99	6d 1h 46m
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > desc: This is a casting kit only; no wheels; no trucks; and no  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > motor. The shell is made of heavy brass [ 12 oz. ] comes complete  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > with all of the accessories. The brass is in very good condition and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > the kit is in the original box, with the directions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Item condition:	C-6 Very Good
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Time left:	6 days 1 hours (Sep 24, 200916:12:05 PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11785
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B, Mike B, W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I also have an older 
type plywood floor for my GARCO switcher and it is milled to in the middle to 
accept the motor. I believe this is a manufactured part by the 
company ( from all the comments about models having wood floor ). The 
plans I have and on hoseeker     Kit and Part Prices 
1947 Page 1    describes the floor as phenolic. It is a type of 
plastic that was just  discussed here recently. It wasn't the best and I'm 
starting to wonder if GARCO had a problem with these "plastic" floors and went 
to the wood floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I'll send pictures 
of my engine later to add to others.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 11:04 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay listing for 
  Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - castings only [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike, mine has an old plywood floor too.  Picture 
  attached, also comparison of the inside of my shell and the ebay shell, either 
  it's been milled differently by the maker or later....notice the tanks on 
  mine.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I can't be sure if they are the same width, but I'd like to know 
  if all of yours have tanks?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  From: Mike Bauers 
  <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:38:06 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - castings 
  only

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for posting this. I've saved the auction page and the 
  image enlargements to a folder...... ... and they thought those couldn't be 
  captured.... ......  8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I should make some shots of my complete version. I'm unsure 
  if the masonite floor on mine is original. But at least it has a  quite 
  suitable vintage drive that looks like the right one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I misspoke, that's some type of primitive plywood used as 
  the floor of my model. I'm convinced it's a type of plywood that has not been 
  made for a very long time. It's -strange- .......
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I see the unpowered kit has a cut brass floor. I got my 
  un-named and unboxed model some 20 years ago, with no handrails or other 
  add-on parts of any kind. Until very recently I had no idea how had made 
  the models/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I had misplaced my camera for a while recently re-discovered 
  it. I'll have to make some shots this weekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      O
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ,___

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11786
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: GARCO Baldwin pictures
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B,  Mike B,  W Jay W,  
All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             These are 
pictures of my GARCO / H J Garrett and Co. Baldwin switcher and the box stating, 
on the end, Baldwin HO Loco Deluxe. ( I thought my engine had the dual drive but 
I was mistaken. Only 4 wheel drive but still pulls great. ). Add these to 
other pictures. Maybe someone ( Chuck H ? ) can create an album for the site out 
of all the attachments.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         Hopefully my pictures are good 
enough to see the "wooden" floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I do have a question for 
anybody. This item was made in 1947 and the drive has a flywheel. Can 
anyone provide the earliest date where a flywheel was used in HO 
?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11787
						From: Chris B
						Date: 9/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I agree, but I think phenolic sheet is made up of paper sheets impregnated with plastic, I'm pretty sure it's commonly used in electrical assemblies for sheets that permit fastening down components without conducting current as sheetmetal would.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      It was around when these were made, and would have served that purpose, but probably wouldn't be strong enough for carrying the shell's weight and the stress of moving parts and load of the trucks and motor...

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim
 heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 8:56:08 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - castings only

                                                                                                                                                                                      






 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B, Mike B, W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I also have an older 
type plywood floor for my GARCO switcher and it is milled to in the middle to 
accept the motor. I believe this is a manufactured part by the 
company ( from all the comments about models having wood floor ). The 
plans I have and on hoseeker     Kit and Part Prices 
1947 Page 1    describes the floor as phenolic. It is a type of 
plastic that was just  discussed here recently. It wasn't the best and I'm 
starting to wonder if GARCO had a problem with these "plastic" floors and went 
to the wood floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            I'll send pictures 
of my engine later to add to others.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 11:04 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay listing for 
  Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - castings only [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike, mine has an old plywood floor too.  Picture 
  attached, also comparison of the inside of my shell and the ebay shell, either 
  it's been milled differently by the maker or later....notice the tanks on 
  mine.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I can't be sure if they are the same width, but I'd like to know 
  if all of yours have tanks?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  From: Mike Bauers 
  <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:38:06 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - castings 
  only

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for posting this. I've saved the auction page and the 
  image enlargements to a folder...... ... and they thought those couldn't be 
  captured.... ......  8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I should make some shots of my complete version. I'm unsure 
  if the masonite floor on mine is original. But at least it has a  quite 
  suitable vintage drive that looks like the right one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I misspoke, that's some type of primitive plywood used as 
  the floor of my model. I'm convinced it's a type of plywood that has not been 
  made for a very long time. It's -strange- .......
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I see the unpowered kit has a cut brass floor. I got my 
  un-named and unboxed model some 20 years ago, with no handrails or other 
  add-on parts of any kind. Until very recently I had no idea how had made 
  the models/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I had misplaced my camera for a while recently re-discovered 
  it. I'll have to make some shots this weekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      O
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ,___

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11788
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: your vintage layout
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
In one of your post you mentioned "My own vintage layout in the making". Since I 
am building my newest layout I have chosen to have a retro type 
vintage layout I am wondering  what your overall plans are. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I have started to build a 16' x 
8'  U shaped layout that would best be called an "island" type. It 
sits in the middle of the floor and not a copy of any railroad although it will 
be northeastern in look and from the steam / diesel era.  It is in a room 
that is 20' x 30' (my train room) surrounded  by my vintage collection on 
three walls and my work bench on the 4th.  I will eventually run 
many of my collectable vintage engines (steam and diesel) on all brass 
track, using an old Model Rectifier transformer, no upgrade in motors or drives, 
no special effects and none of the newer "bells and whistle" type electronics 
with even buildings and accessories mostly from days gone by. Since it is 
in the middle with no walls to provide background or depth the scenery 
must stand out to draw attention to the layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          It is just my way and what I 
want to do.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11789
						From: chrisb_acw_rr
						Date: 9/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: your vintage layout
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H wrote...> In one of your post you mentioned "My own vintage layout in the making". Since I am building my newest layout I have chosen to have a retro type vintage layout I am wondering  what your overall plans are.<snip>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-----------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim, I'm working an a layout that combines several different interests.  I live in Arlington Virginia near Chain Bridge and Rosslyn, very close to what once was the Washington & Old Dominion RR.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So I'm very interested in historical rr research of that unique line.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I'm also interested in prototype model railroad modeling and operation, but I've never accomplished it before, so I hope to incorporate that into this layout.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
And I've been in and out of model railroading at various times in my life, mostly interested in engine building and modification, especially all metal locomotives from the time of my youth in the 50's.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So my project tries to combine all of those interests...I'm active in a W&OD history yahoo group, I spent years as a professional cabinetmaker and millwright, made my own shaper knives and plane irons, I don't really care for plastic toy trains with sound decoders, and I get enough computer work in my dayjob. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
so I want to build pretty accurate models of actual engines and the two locations they worked at, using vintage engines and motors, and eventually operate the layout using the 40's era timetables and schedules.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
----------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have a 14 x 20 space plus the adjacent utility room for staging, but I wanted to model the 3% grades up out of Rosslyn yard that climb 300' in 5 miles and join the main line at Bluemont Jct, with tracks leading west to Falls Church and south to Alexandria.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I also wanted to run vintage all metal motive power and rolling stock on vintage truscale track that showed its age.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
So my overall plan is I'm building a multi-deck, around the room layout with a track plan that simulates the actual track plan at those two locations, climbing from the bottom left at 36" above the floor (Rosslyn yard) to the upper right at 60" above the floor (Bluemont Jct).  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I may never get beyond track and structures as far as scenery goes, since I have 26 specific actual W&OD engines or powered cars to model from the 40s/50s era, but that's okay with me.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If I can bash or build suydam metal kits that look like the plain yard and junction bldgs the line had at Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct, that's all I'll need to make me happy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
---------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
During WWII, the era I'm modeling, Rosslyn Yard was a tiny yard with hellacious grades right at the throat, (they had to put wooden chocks on the gas electrics parked on a 2% grade, and load passengers from a mud floored leanto stuck on the side of the engine shed...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
and Bluemont Jct was a primitive accidental junction that saw traffic up to 50 trains a day.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
-----------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
At Bluemont Jct there are connections with tracks that go left and eventually end up in the adjacent utility room (this line simulates the line to Falls Church) and connections with tracks that go right and back down on a different level and grade till they also end up in the adjacent room (this line simulates the line to Alexandria.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The line had been broke and other succeeding mgmt for all of its 100 year history, so the equipment, ROW, and practices were all second-hand or homemade electrics till the war $$ let them buy some of the first GE 44 tonners.  After the war they also used 70 tonners and finally Alco S-2s.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
These were the more ordinary motive power units, during the war they also ran a hodge podge of experimental and modified self propelled passenger units that I also have acquired various metal models that will eventually be put into service.   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
---------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
you have to understand I'm definitely not one of those MR guys into prototype style layout operations, using actual accurate paperwork, signals, rules, and safe procedures.  that may be fun for some, but not in my basement.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
But since my chosen prototype railroad ran hell bent for leather without any of those niceties, I still get to run em like I wanna and call it prototype operation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The W&OD was repeated charged over decades with illegal, unsafe, or inappropriate operating practices, non-fatal wrecks were common with so many unprotected grade crossings, no employees wore uniforms, there were no tickets sold, you paid the guy on the train and he wrote you a receipt in pencil, there was no shortage of lubrication in the cab even if the bearings sometimes ran hot! <G>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>               In one of your post you mentioned "My own vintage layout in the making". Since I am building my newest layout I have chosen to have a retro type vintage layout I am wondering  what your overall plans are. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     I have started to build a 16' x 8'  U shaped layout that would best be called an "island" type. It sits in the middle of the floor and not a copy of any railroad although it will be northeastern in look and from the steam / diesel era.  It is in a room that is 20' x 30' (my train room) surrounded  by my vintage collection on three walls and my work bench on the 4th.  I will eventually run many of my collectable vintage engines (steam and diesel) on all brass track, using an old Model Rectifier transformer, no upgrade in motors or drives, no special effects and none of the newer "bells and whistle" type electronics with even buildings and accessories mostly from days gone by. Since it is in the middle with no walls to provide background or depth the scenery must stand out to draw attention to the layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     It is just my way and what I want to do.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11790
						From: Chris B
						Date: 9/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: your vintage layout
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      here's a few shots of the layout in progress...

                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11791
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: your vintage layout
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                            Chris 
B,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
Thanks for your pictures and narrative of what you plan to 
do. Whatever you plan remember it is how you want to do it that matters. I 
can appreciate which ever way you decide especially the work and time 
you put into accomplishing your railroad. Remember, as many have told me, it's a 
work in progress. Total completion may never happen but thats not a bad thing. 
Good Luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            While I have an 
electrical drafting degree I never liked the electrical part but the 
drafting part is helpful. I spent 23 years as an A millwright till I was hurt. I 
had machine shop schooling plus some tool and die with heat treating. All this 
background combined helps me with my main interest. I love to take a 
vintage item from as far back as 1936 and "rebuild" it as close as possible to 
original. Items from needing some work to basket case are a challenge to me to 
see what I can accomplish. For my latest project I just refurbished, 
sans motor, a pre war Mantua brass Consolidation from 1938. I am lucky 
to have a small lathe, milling machine, sander and a good powered metal 
saw. Yet it's still the hand tools that are most valuable. Good mills, drill 
bits, files, etc. Having some paperwork especially a drawing, parts or assembly 
sheet are an added plus when rebuilding.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Always here if I can 
help either on site or direct Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 12:31 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: your vintage 
  layout
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H wrote...> In one of your post you mentioned "My own vintage layout 
  in the making". Since I am building my newest layout I have chosen to have a 
  retro type vintage layout I am wondering what your overall plans 
  are.<snip>

                                                                                                                                                                                      -----------

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, I'm working an a layout that 
  combines several different interests. I live in Arlington Virginia near Chain 
  Bridge and Rosslyn, very close to what once was the Washington & Old 
  Dominion RR.

                                                                                                                                                                                      So I'm very interested in historical rr research of that 
  unique line.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm also interested in prototype model railroad modeling 
  and operation, but I've never accomplished it before, so I hope to incorporate 
  that into this layout. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      And I've been in and out of model railroading 
  at various times in my life, mostly interested in engine building and 
  modification, especially all metal locomotives from the time of my youth in 
  the 50's.

                                                                                                                                                                                      So my project tries to combine all of those 
  interests... I'm active in a W&OD history yahoo group, I spent years 
  as a professional cabinetmaker and millwright, made my own shaper knives and 
  plane irons, I don't really care for plastic toy trains with sound decoders, 
  and I get enough computer work in my dayjob. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      so I want to build pretty 
  accurate models of actual engines and the two locations they worked at, using 
  vintage engines and motors, and eventually operate the layout using the 40's 
  era timetables and schedules.

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----------
                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a 14 x 20 space plus 
  the adjacent utility room for staging, but I wanted to model the 3% grades up 
  out of Rosslyn yard that climb 300' in 5 miles and join the main line at 
  Bluemont Jct, with tracks leading west to Falls Church and south to 
  Alexandria. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I also wanted to run vintage all metal motive power and 
  rolling stock on vintage truscale track that showed its age.

                                                                                                                                                                                      So my 
  overall plan is I'm building a multi-deck, around the room layout with a track 
  plan that simulates the actual track plan at those two locations, climbing 
  from the bottom left at 36" above the floor (Rosslyn yard) to the upper right 
  at 60" above the floor (Bluemont Jct). 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I may never get beyond track 
  and structures as far as scenery goes, since I have 26 specific actual 
  W&OD engines or powered cars to model from the 40s/50s era, but that's 
  okay with me.

                                                                                                                                                                                      If I can bash or build suydam metal kits that look like 
  the plain yard and junction bldgs the line had at Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct, 
  that's all I'll need to make me happy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      ---------

                                                                                                                                                                                      During WWII, the 
  era I'm modeling, Rosslyn Yard was a tiny yard with hellacious grades right at 
  the throat, (they had to put wooden chocks on the gas electrics parked on a 2% 
  grade, and load passengers from a mud floored leanto stuck on the side of the 
  engine shed...

                                                                                                                                                                                      and Bluemont Jct was a primitive accidental junction 
  that saw traffic up to 50 trains a day.
                                                                                                                                                                                      -----------
                                                                                                                                                                                      At Bluemont Jct 
  there are connections with tracks that go left and eventually end up in the 
  adjacent utility room (this line simulates the line to Falls Church) and 
  connections with tracks that go right and back down on a different level and 
  grade till they also end up in the adjacent room (this line simulates the line 
  to Alexandria.)

                                                                                                                                                                                      The line had been broke and other succeeding mgmt for 
  all of its 100 year history, so the equipment, ROW, and practices were all 
  second-hand or homemade electrics till the war $$ let them buy some of the 
  first GE 44 tonners. After the war they also used 70 tonners and finally Alco 
  S-2s. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      These were the more ordinary motive power units, during the war 
  they also ran a hodge podge of experimental and modified self propelled 
  passenger units that I also have acquired various metal models that will 
  eventually be put into service. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      ---------

                                                                                                                                                                                      you have to 
  understand I'm definitely not one of those MR guys into prototype style layout 
  operations, using actual accurate paperwork, signals, rules, and safe 
  procedures. that may be fun for some, but not in my basement.

                                                                                                                                                                                      But since 
  my chosen prototype railroad ran hell bent for leather without any of those 
  niceties, I still get to run em like I wanna and call it prototype 
  operation.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The W&OD was repeated charged over decades with illegal, 
  unsafe, or inappropriate operating practices, non-fatal wrecks were common 
  with so many unprotected grade crossings, no employees wore uniforms, there 
  were no tickets sold, you paid the guy on the train and he wrote you a receipt 
  in pencil, there was no shortage of lubrication in the cab even if the 
  bearings sometimes ran hot! <G>

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > In one of your post you mentioned "My own vintage layout in the 
  making". Since I am building my newest layout I have chosen to have a retro 
  type vintage layout I am wondering what your overall plans are. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I have started to build a 16' x 8' U shaped layout that would best be 
  called an "island" type. It sits in the middle of the floor and not a copy of 
  any railroad although it will be northeastern in look and from the steam / 
  diesel era. It is in a room that is 20' x 30' (my train room) surrounded by my 
  vintage collection on three walls and my work bench on the 4th. I will 
  eventually run many of my collectable vintage engines (steam and diesel) on 
  all brass track, using an old Model Rectifier transformer, no upgrade in 
  motors or drives, no special effects and none of the newer "bells and whistle" 
  type electronics with even buildings and accessories mostly from days gone by. 
  Since it is in the middle with no walls to provide background or depth the 
  scenery must stand out to draw attention to the layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > It is 
  just my way and what I want to do.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11792
						From: Chris B
						Date: 9/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: your vintage layout
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      thanks Jim, you're already helping me out on a regular basis, just keeping my interest up.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I've got some bad tendinitis right now, so I'll be laying off the heavy work for a while. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      But you and the other members of this group are more active in this hobby and in this group then all my other online mr and rr history sites.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      So even on the days I don't do anything but browse ebay and read the emails on this site about fabulous vintage steam articulateds, or teams of scholars trying to ID some mystery engine, I feel like I'm staying in touch with the hobby and my layout and engines.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks to all, this is truly a fun group,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 1:59:43 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: your vintage layout

                                                                                                                                                                                      






 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                            Chris 
B,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
Thanks for your pictures and narrative of what you plan to 
do. Whatever you plan remember it is how you want to do it that matters. I 
can appreciate which ever way you decide especially the work and time 
you put into accomplishing your railroad. Remember, as many have told me, it's a 
work in progress. Total completion may never happen but thats not a bad thing. 
Good Luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            While I have an 
electrical drafting degree I never liked the electrical part but the 
drafting part is helpful. I spent 23 years as an A millwright till I was hurt. I 
had machine shop schooling plus some tool and die with heat treating. All this 
background combined helps me with my main interest. I love to take a 
vintage item from as far back as 1936 and "rebuild" it as close as possible to 
original. Items from needing some work to basket case are a challenge to me to 
see what I can accomplish. For my latest project I just refurbished, 
sans motor, a pre war Mantua brass Consolidation from 1938. I am lucky 
to have a small lathe, milling machine, sander and a good powered metal 
saw. Yet it's still the hand tools that are most valuable. Good mills, drill 
bits, files, etc. Having some paperwork especially a drawing, parts or assembly 
sheet are an added plus when rebuilding.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            Always here if I can 
help either on site or direct Email.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 12:31 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: your vintage 
  layout
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H wrote...> In one of your post you mentioned "My own vintage layout 
  in the making". Since I am building my newest layout I have chosen to have a 
  retro type vintage layout I am wondering what your overall plans 
  are.<snip>

                                                                                                                                                                                      -----------

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, I'm working an a layout that 
  combines several different interests. I live in Arlington Virginia near Chain 
  Bridge and Rosslyn, very close to what once was the Washington & Old 
  Dominion RR.

                                                                                                                                                                                      So I'm very interested in historical rr research of that 
  unique line.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm also interested in prototype model railroad modeling 
  and operation, but I've never accomplished it before, so I hope to incorporate 
  that into this layout. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      And I've been in and out of model railroading 
  at various times in my life, mostly interested in engine building and 
  modification, especially all metal locomotives from the time of my youth in 
  the 50's.

                                                                                                                                                                                      So my project tries to combine all of those 
  interests... I'm active in a W&OD history yahoo group, I spent years 
  as a professional cabinetmaker and millwright, made my own shaper knives and 
  plane irons, I don't really care for plastic toy trains with sound decoders, 
  and I get enough computer work in my dayjob. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      so I want to build pretty 
  accurate models of actual engines and the two locations they worked at, using 
  vintage engines and motors, and eventually operate the layout using the 40's 
  era timetables and schedules.

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----------
                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a 14 x 20 space plus 
  the adjacent utility room for staging, but I wanted to model the 3% grades up 
  out of Rosslyn yard that climb 300' in 5 miles and join the main line at 
  Bluemont Jct, with tracks leading west to Falls Church and south to 
  Alexandria. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I also wanted to run vintage all metal motive power and 
  rolling stock on vintage truscale track that showed its age.

                                                                                                                                                                                      So my 
  overall plan is I'm building a multi-deck, around the room layout with a track 
  plan that simulates the actual track plan at those two locations, climbing 
  from the bottom left at 36" above the floor (Rosslyn yard) to the upper right 
  at 60" above the floor (Bluemont Jct). 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I may never get beyond track 
  and structures as far as scenery goes, since I have 26 specific actual 
  W&OD engines or powered cars to model from the 40s/50s era, but that's 
  okay with me.

                                                                                                                                                                                      If I can bash or build suydam metal kits that look like 
  the plain yard and junction bldgs the line had at Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct, 
  that's all I'll need to make me happy.
                                                                                                                                                                                      ---------

                                                                                                                                                                                      During WWII, the 
  era I'm modeling, Rosslyn Yard was a tiny yard with hellacious grades right at 
  the throat, (they had to put wooden chocks on the gas electrics parked on a 2% 
  grade, and load passengers from a mud floored leanto stuck on the side of the 
  engine shed...

                                                                                                                                                                                      and Bluemont Jct was a primitive accidental junction 
  that saw traffic up to 50 trains a day.
                                                                                                                                                                                      -----------
                                                                                                                                                                                      At Bluemont Jct 
  there are connections with tracks that go left and eventually end up in the 
  adjacent utility room (this line simulates the line to Falls Church) and 
  connections with tracks that go right and back down on a different level and 
  grade till they also end up in the adjacent room (this line simulates the line 
  to Alexandria.)

                                                                                                                                                                                      The line had been broke and other succeeding mgmt for 
  all of its 100 year history, so the equipment, ROW, and practices were all 
  second-hand or homemade electrics till the war $$ let them buy some of the 
  first GE 44 tonners. After the war they also used 70 tonners and finally Alco 
  S-2s. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      These were the more ordinary motive power units, during the war 
  they also ran a hodge podge of experimental and modified self propelled 
  passenger units that I also have acquired various metal models that will 
  eventually be put into service. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      ---------

                                                                                                                                                                                      you have to 
  understand I'm definitely not one of those MR guys into prototype style layout 
  operations, using actual accurate paperwork, signals, rules, and safe 
  procedures. that may be fun for some, but not in my basement.

                                                                                                                                                                                      But since 
  my chosen prototype railroad ran hell bent for leather without any of those 
  niceties, I still get to run em like I wanna and call it prototype 
  operation.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The W&OD was repeated charged over decades with illegal, 
  unsafe, or inappropriate operating practices, non-fatal wrecks were common 
  with so many unprotected grade crossings, no employees wore uniforms, there 
  were no tickets sold, you paid the guy on the train and he wrote you a receipt 
  in pencil, there was no shortage of lubrication in the cab even if the 
  bearings sometimes ran hot! <G>

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Chris B,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > In one of your post you mentioned "My own vintage layout in the 
  making". Since I am building my newest layout I have chosen to have a retro 
  type vintage layout I am wondering what your overall plans are. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I have started to build a 16' x 8' U shaped layout that would best be 
  called an "island" type. It sits in the middle of the floor and not a copy of 
  any railroad although it will be northeastern in look and from the steam / 
  diesel era. It is in a room that is 20' x 30' (my train room) surrounded by my 
  vintage collection on three walls and my work bench on the 4th. I will 
  eventually run many of my collectable vintage engines (steam and diesel) on 
  all brass track, using an old Model Rectifier transformer, no upgrade in 
  motors or drives, no special effects and none of the newer "bells and whistle" 
  type electronics with even buildings and accessories mostly from days gone by. 
  Since it is in the middle with no walls to provide background or depth the 
  scenery must stand out to draw attention to the layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > It is 
  just my way and what I want to do.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11793
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 9/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: GARCO Baldwin pictures [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello Jim and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      I did make a folder for these photos.  I
did save Jim’s to my HD and then load them.  They are very small and I
think of no value at the size they appear to me.  So Jim, if you could send
them to me direct, they can be loaded larger than they did as attachments on
the below email.  I left the folder flag set so that any in the group may load
their photos to it directly.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009
9:31 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] GARCO Baldwin
pictures [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



Chris
B,  Mike B,  W Jay W,  All,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                             These are pictures of
my GARCO / H J Garrett and Co. Baldwin 
switcher and the box stating, on the end, Baldwin HO Loco Deluxe. ( I thought
my engine had the dual drive but I was mistaken. Only 4 wheel drive but still
pulls great. ). Add these to other pictures. Maybe someone ( Chuck H ? )
can create an album for the site out of all the attachments.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                         Hopefully my pictures are good enough to
see the "wooden" floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                          I do have a question for anybody.
This item was made in 1947 and the drive has a flywheel. Can
anyone provide the earliest date where a flywheel was used in HO ?
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11794
						From: Chris B
						Date: 9/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: GARCO Baldwin pictures
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chuck, fwiw,  I also made a folder for Jim Heckard's Garco photos earlier today, but for whatever reason I was able to upload them full size.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      I think Mike B. and  W Jay W were also thinking of loading some photos at some point of their engines, so it's also an open album for anyone to add to.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I also added the photos of the ebay listing,  photos of my own engine,  and some closeups of the HOSeeker dwgs that show the 3 different versions of the drive train offered by Garco.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B.



                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 8:30:26 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [vintageHO] GARCO Baldwin pictures

                                                                                                                                                                                      






 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      






                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello Jim and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      I did make a folder for these photos.  I
did save Jim’s to my HD and then load them.  They are very small and I
think of no value at the size they appear to me.  So Jim, if you could send
them to me direct, they can be loaded larger than they did as attachments on
the below email.  I left the folder flag set so that any in the group may load
their photos to it directly.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009
9:31 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] GARCO Baldwin
pictures [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



Chris
B,  Mike B,  W Jay W,  All,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                             These are pictures of
my GARCO / H J Garrett and Co. Baldwin 
switcher and the box stating, on the end, Baldwin HO Loco Deluxe. ( I thought
my engine had the dual drive but I was mistaken. Only 4 wheel drive but still
pulls great. ). Add these to other pictures. Maybe someone ( Chuck H ? )
can create an album for the site out of all the attachments.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                         Hopefully my pictures are good enough to
see the "wooden" floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                          I do have a question for anybody.
This item was made in 1947 and the drive has a flywheel. Can
anyone provide the earliest date where a flywheel was used in HO ?
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      




	
	


 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11795
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 9/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I've been around those phenolic sheets for almost 40 years on the job.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
We use a lot of in in our electrical plant where we make our our giant  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
mill motors and electrical boards for our mining shovels
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
They have a finer texture than masonite and are as tough as steel.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I've long thought I should get a bit of scrap and replace the floor  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
with it. I would have to mill it here and there.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 From the itchies you get from it, it must have a generous amount of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
fiberglass in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Sep 19, 2009, at 9:02 AM, Chris B wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I agree, but I think phenolic sheet is made up of paper sheets  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> impregnated with plastic, I'm pretty sure it's commonly used in  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> electrical assemblies for sheets that permit fastening down  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> components without conducting current as sheetmetal would.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It was around when these were made, and would have served that  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> purpose, but probably wouldn't be strong enough for carrying the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> shell's weight and the stress of moving parts and load of the trucks  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and motor...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 8:56:08 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> switcher kit - castings only
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chris B, Mike B, W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       I also have an older type plywood floor for my GARCO switcher  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and it is milled to in the middle to accept the motor. I believe  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> this is a manufactured part by the company ( from all the comments  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> about models having wood floor ). The plans I have and on  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> hoseeker     Kit and Part Prices 1947 Page 1    describes the floor  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> as phenolic. It is a type of plastic that was just  discussed here  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> recently. It wasn't the best and I'm starting to wonder if GARCO had  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> a problem with these "plastic" floors and went to the wood floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       I'll send pictures of my engine later to add to others.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                    Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike, mine has an old plywood floor too.  Picture attached, also  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> comparison of the inside of my shell and the ebay shell, either it's  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> been milled differently by the maker or later....notice the tanks on  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I can't be sure if they are the same width, but I'd like to know if  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> all of yours have tanks?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks for posting this. I've saved the auction page and the image  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> enlargements to a folder...... ... and they thought those couldn't  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> be captured.... ......  8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I should make some shots of my complete version. I'm unsure if the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> masonite floor on mine is original. But at least it has a  quite  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> suitable vintage drive that looks like the right one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I misspoke, that's some type of primitive plywood used as the floor  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of my model. I'm convinced it's a type of plywood that has not been  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> made for a very long time. It's -strange- .......
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I see the unpowered kit has a cut brass floor. I got my un-named and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> unboxed model some 20 years ago, with no handrails or other add-on  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> parts of any kind. Until very recently I had no idea how had made  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the models/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I had misplaced my camera for a while recently re-discovered it.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I'll have to make some shots this weekend. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11796
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 9/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: GARCO Baldwin pictures
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      I just looked at your folder and Jim’s
photos showed to me at the correct size, I don’t know?  The folder looks good
and I have removed the one I did.  Thanks for letting me know about it.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009
8:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] GARCO
 Baldwin pictures
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chuck, fwiw,  I also made a
folder for Jim Heckard's Garco photos earlier today, but for whatever reason I
was able to upload them full size.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I think Mike B. and  W Jay W were also thinking of loading some photos at
some point of their engines, so it's also an open album for anyone to add to.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I also added the photos of the ebay listing,  photos of my own
engine,  and some closeups of the HOSeeker dwgs that show the 3 different
versions of the drive train offered by Garco.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Chuck Higdon
<vze5crrw1@verizon. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009
8:30:26 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] GARCO
 Baldwin pictures
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello Jim and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      I did make a folder for these photos.  I did save Jim’s to my
HD and then load them.  They are very small and I think of no value at the
size they appear to me.  So Jim, if you could send them to me direct, they
can be loaded larger than they did as attachments on the below email.  I
left the folder flag set so that any in the group may load their photos to it
directly.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots.
com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009
9:31 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] GARCO Baldwin
pictures [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris
B,  Mike B,  W Jay W,  All,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                            
These are pictures of my GARCO / H J Garrett and Co. Baldwin 
switcher and the box stating, on the end, Baldwin HO Loco Deluxe. ( I thought
my engine had the dual drive but I was mistaken. Only 4 wheel drive but still
pulls great. ). Add these to other pictures. Maybe someone ( Chuck H ? )
can create an album for the site out of all the attachments.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                         Hopefully
my pictures are good enough to see the "wooden" floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                          I
do have a question for anybody. This item was made in 1947 and the drive has a
flywheel. Can anyone provide the earliest date where a flywheel was used
in HO ?
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11797
						From: Chris B
						Date: 9/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: GARCO Baldwin pictures
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck, glad to help out any way I can.  I get more fun and info out of this group than I could ever put back in, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 9:17:29 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: RE: [vintageHO] GARCO Baldwin pictures

                                                                                                                                                                                      






 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      






                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      I just looked at your folder and Jim’s
photos showed to me at the correct size, I don’t know?  The folder looks good
and I have removed the one I did.  Thanks for letting me know about it.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009
8:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] GARCO Baldwin pictures
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Chuck, fwiw,  I also made a
folder for Jim Heckard's Garco photos earlier today, but for whatever reason I
was able to upload them full size.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I think Mike B. and  W Jay W were also thinking of loading some photos at
some point of their engines, so it's also an open album for anyone to add to.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I also added the photos of the ebay listing,  photos of my own
engine,  and some closeups of the HOSeeker dwgs that show the 3 different
versions of the drive train offered by Garco.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Chuck Higdon
<vze5crrw1@verizon. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009
8:30:26 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] GARCO Baldwin pictures
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hello Jim and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      I did make a folder for these photos.  I did save Jim’s to my
HD and then load them.  They are very small and I think of no value at the
size they appear to me.  So Jim, if you could send them to me direct, they
can be loaded larger than they did as attachments on the below email.  I
left the folder flag set so that any in the group may load their photos to it
directly.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots.
com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009
9:31 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] GARCO Baldwin
pictures [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris
B,  Mike B,  W Jay W,  All,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                            
These are pictures of my GARCO / H J Garrett and Co. Baldwin 
switcher and the box stating, on the end, Baldwin HO Loco Deluxe. ( I thought
my engine had the dual drive but I was mistaken. Only 4 wheel drive but still
pulls great. ). Add these to other pictures. Maybe someone ( Chuck H ? )
can create an album for the site out of all the attachments.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                         Hopefully
my pictures are good enough to see the "wooden" floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                          I
do have a question for anybody. This item was made in 1947 and the drive has a
flywheel. Can anyone provide the earliest date where a flywheel was used
in HO ?
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      




	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11798
						From: rrdrigg
						Date: 9/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Rivarossi 4-6-2
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      need a copy of Rivarossi diagram for the 4-6-2 with the can motor (1990,s).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Can any one help?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11799
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 9/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Brass Alternating Current Steeplecab Locomotive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Group,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Recently on eBay I picked up an assortment of locos. I managed to ID all the steam (John English and Varney, which was easy), a Model Engineering Works GE 44T switcher and Bowser PCC streetcar.

                                                                                                                                                                                      One mystery remains- a brass small (About 20 scale feet long) steeplecab switcher, that has an Alternating Current motor inside.

                                                                                                                                                                                      As my camera is MIA at this time, I will describe it to my ability:

                                                                                                                                                                                      It has a pair of small hood at either end of a cab that takes up about 2/3 of the frame. hoods are off to one side (to allow for crew door on the fronts.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Unit has four brass wheels, that were loose on the axles. Only one axle is powered. There are bras nuts that hold the wheels firm on the axle by sandwiching the wheel to the inside collar of the axle.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Vertical mount motor, with three rotor poles. I figured it was A.C. current,
 as the field is an electromagnet, same as on an early Gilbert Hudson, complete with field windings. It indeed is an A.C. motor, as it runs one direction regardless of reverser switch on my power pack. Do not see an A.C. reverser (or E-unit) though.

                                                                                                                                                                                      There is a small pilot hole in the middle of the cab roof (Possibly for mounting a trolley pole or pantograph.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Inside, under the cab roof, it is stamped 'Japan'. Only maker I could think of was Tenshodo, and HOSeeker has ruled that out. Redball was also an early Japanese importer (I have an A-B set of C-liners with Redball box- all brass) but I would imagine Redball would be more detailed- only detailing on this is some corrugated vents on the sides.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Being Japanese, I can't imagine it being prewar, but it has an AC motor, used more in the prewar days.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I am interested in the make of such a locomotive. I don't have much to go on for a search through the web. Hopefully I find my
 camera soon.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks to all!

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11800
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 9/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Brass Alternating Current Steeplecab Locomotive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have one much like it that I know as being  a Ken Kidder. Mine has centered hoods on it.

                                                                                                                                                                                      What we both have is a standard production item of Japanese model railroading , lots and lots of models were sold over the decades, and some of them made it into The States. They are much like the HO Docksides of Japanese model railroading.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The rooftop center hole on mine has a good sized pantograph attached through it. I think that is typical of Japan RR operation.

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      On Sep 19, 2009, at 11:22 PM, Stephen Neubaum wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                      Group,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Recently on eBay I picked up an assortment of locos. I managed to ID all the steam (John English and Varney, which was easy), a Model Engineering Works GE 44T switcher and Bowser PCC streetcar.

                                                                                                                                                                                      One mystery remains- a brass small (About 20 scale feet long) steeplecab switcher, that has an Alternating Current motor inside.

                                                                                                                                                                                      As my camera is MIA at this time, I will describe it to my ability:

                                                                                                                                                                                      It has a pair of small hood at either end of a cab that takes up about 2/3 of the frame. hoods are off to one side (to allow for crew door on the fronts.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Unit has four brass wheels, that were loose on the axles. Only one axle is powered. There are bras nuts that hold the wheels firm on the axle by sandwiching the wheel to the inside collar of the axle.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Vertical mount motor, with three rotor poles. I figured it was A.C. current, as the field is an electromagnet, same as on an early Gilbert Hudson, complete with field windings. It indeed is an A.C. motor, as it runs one direction regardless of reverser switch on my power pack. Do not see an A.C. reverser (or E-unit) though.

                                                                                                                                                                                      There is a small pilot hole in the middle of the cab roof (Possibly for mounting a trolley pole or pantograph.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Inside, under the cab roof, it is stamped 'Japan'. Only maker I could think of was Tenshodo, and HOSeeker has ruled that out. Redball was also an early Japanese importer (I have an A-B set of C-liners with Redball box- all brass) but I would imagine Redball would be more detailed- only detailing on this is some corrugated vents on the sides.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Being Japanese, I can't imagine it being prewar, but it has an AC motor, used more in the prewar days.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I am interested in the make of such a locomotive. I don't have much to go on for a search through the web. Hopefully I find my camera soon.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks to all!

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum



                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11801
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Brass Alternating Current Steeplecab Locomotive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 


 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Those "AC" motors are actually better called 
"Universal Motors"--as some manufacturers called them--they can be reversed by 
putting a bridge rectifier across the field.  This keeps constant polarity 
on the field while allowing polarity reversal on the brushes.  Back then, 
the only rectifiers were rather bulky copper oxide and selenium affairs.  
Now compact ones can be had at Radio Shack.  Westcott's "How to Wire Your 
Model Railroad" has the circuit diagrammed.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 9:41 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Brass 
  Alternating Current Steeplecab Locomotive
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I have one much like it that I know as being  a Ken Kidder. Mine has 
  centered hoods on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      What we both have is a standard production item of Japanese model 
  railroading , lots and lots of models were sold over the decades, and some of 
  them made it into The States. They are much like the HO Docksides of Japanese 
  model railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      The rooftop center hole on mine has a good sized pantograph attached 
  through it. I think that is typical of Japan RR operation.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      On Sep 19, 2009, at 11:22 PM, Stephen Neubaum wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    


                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        Group,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Recently on eBay I picked up an 
          assortment of locos. I managed to ID all the steam (John English and 
          Varney, which was easy), a Model Engineering Works GE 44T switcher and 
          Bowser PCC streetcar.

                                                                                                                                                                                      One mystery remains- a brass small (About 
          20 scale feet long) steeplecab switcher, that has an Alternating 
          Current motor inside.

                                                                                                                                                                                      As my camera is MIA at this time, I will 
          describe it to my ability:

                                                                                                                                                                                      It has a pair of small hood at 
          either end of a cab that takes up about 2/3 of the frame. hoods are 
          off to one side (to allow for crew door on the fronts.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Unit has 
          four brass wheels, that were loose on the axles. Only one axle is 
          powered. There are bras nuts that hold the wheels firm on the axle by 
          sandwiching the wheel to the inside collar of the 
          axle.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Vertical mount motor, with three rotor poles. I figured 
          it was A.C. current, as the field is an electromagnet, same as on an 
          early Gilbert Hudson, complete with field windings. It indeed is an 
          A.C. motor, as it runs one direction regardless of reverser switch on 
          my power pack. Do not see an A.C. reverser (or E-unit) 
          though.

                                                                                                                                                                                      There is a small pilot hole in the middle of the cab 
          roof (Possibly for mounting a trolley pole or 
          pantograph.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Inside, under the cab roof, it is stamped 'Japan'. 
          Only maker I could think of was Tenshodo, and HOSeeker has ruled that 
          out. Redball was also an early Japanese importer (I have an A-B set of 
          C-liners with Redball box- all brass) but I would imagine Redball 
          would be more detailed- only detailing on this is some corrugated 
          vents on the sides.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Being Japanese, I can't imagine it being 
          prewar, but it has an AC motor, used more in the prewar days.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I 
          am interested in the make of such a locomotive. I don't have much to 
          go on for a search through the web. Hopefully I find my camera 
          soon.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks to all!

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve 
    Neubaum


                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.108/2383 - Release 
  Date: 09/19/09 17:50:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11802
						From: stephen anderson
						Date: 9/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Digest Number 1727[3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for the info on the GARCO switcher. It is always great to get new info.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
On 19 Sep 2009 12:49:32 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >                                             Vintage HO Operators 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                  Vintage HO Operators                 Messages In This 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Digest      (12                Messages) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                             1. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>      Rivarossi 4-6-2   From:        rrdrigg 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                           2a.       ebay 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - castings on   From: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Chris B                         2b.       Re: ebay listing for Garrett 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>(GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting   From:        the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                        2c.       Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Baldwin switcher kit - casting   From:        jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                        2d.       Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Baldwin switcher kit - casting   From:        Chris B 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                        2e.       Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Baldwin switcher kit - casting   From:        the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                        2f.       Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Baldwin switcher kit - casting   From:        Mike Bauers 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                        2g.       Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Baldwin switcher kit - casting   From:        Chris B 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                        2h.       Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Baldwin switcher kit - casting   From:        Chris B 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                        2i.       Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Baldwin switcher kit - casting   From:        the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                        2j.       Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Baldwin switcher kit - casting   From:        the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                           3.       Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Hustler Repower   From:        corlissbs 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                View All Topics | Create New 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Topic                         Messages                                1. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                          Rivarossi 4-6-2                Posted by: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     "rrdrigg"             robertanned@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                         rrdrigg 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:06 am        (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       I need a copy of the diagram for the newer Rivarossi 4-6-2 with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>can motor. I need some parts for some of these steam engines but do not know 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>the new part numbers. Hoseeker does not have these online. Can anyone help.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                       Back to top 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                    Reply to sender 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>           |                        Reply to group            | 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                       Reply via web post            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                        Messages in this topic             (1) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                 2a. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                          ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>kit - castings on                Posted by:      "Chris B" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            chrisb_acw_rr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                         chrisb_acw_rr 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:45 pm        (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       This is a new ebay listing for a Garrett kit of castings for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Baldwin switcher. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I'm not bidding, I have one of these assembled and running, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> but I've never seen an unassembled kit for this engine without a drivetrain 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>& motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I thought this item might be of interest to the group, since  this variant 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>might add to the intermittent discussion about  early diesel cast parts and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>business relationships between different makers of that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ============
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Item number:220482297855
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> GARRETT HO BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVE KIT-CASTING SET ONLY 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  1 Bid $29.99 6d 1h 46m desc: This is a casting kit only; no wheels; no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>trucks; and no motor. The
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> shell is made of heavy brass [ 12 oz. ] comes complete with all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> accessories. The brass is in very good condition and the kit is in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> original box, with the directions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Item condition: C-6  Very Good 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Time left: 6 days 1 hours (Sep 24, 200916:12:05 PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                       Back to top 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                    Reply to sender 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>           |                        Reply to group            | 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                       Reply via web post            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                        Messages in this topic             (15) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                2b.                           Re: ebay 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>               Posted by:      "the_plainsman" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            the_plainsman@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                         the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:51 pm        (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Hi Chris B.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks for showing this.  I have a similar unpowered boxed kit, including 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>cast brass sideframes, but no floor.  Those original boxes were pretty 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>flimsy, given the weight of the castings; my kit box is missing the plain 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>end.  I have another Baldwin with the original flywheel drive and a third 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Baldwin that has a noticibly wider hood.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> That third one was fitted with a later hobbytown of Boston power chassis by 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>a skilled machinist and pulls like a son of a gun.  But I'm really not sure 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>where that wide hood version came from, Garrett or a later firm that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>contracted with Adams, or possibly Adams directly, as some have suggested 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>here that they mave have offered items on their own or to other wholesalers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I must get that new camera so that I can show more of my finds!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > This is a new ebay listing for a Garrett kit of castings for the Baldwin 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>switcher. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I'm not bidding, I have one of these assembled and running, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > but I've never seen an unassembled kit for this engine without a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>drivetrain & motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I thought this item might be of interest to the group, since  this variant 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>might add to the intermittent discussion about  early diesel cast parts and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>business relationships between different makers of that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ============
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Item number:220482297855
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  GARRETT HO BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVE KIT-CASTING SET ONLY 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  1 Bid $29.99 6d 1h 46m desc: This is a casting kit only; no wheels; no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>trucks; and no motor. The
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > shell is made of heavy brass [ 12 oz. ] comes complete with all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > accessories. The brass is in very good condition and the kit is in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > original box, with the directions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Item condition: C-6  Very Good 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Time left: 6 days 1 hours (Sep 24, 200916:12:05 PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                       Back to top 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                    Reply to sender 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>           |                        Reply to group            | 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                       Reply via web post            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                        Messages in this topic             (15) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                2c.                           Re: ebay 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>               Posted by:      "jim heckard"             jimheck@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                         jimheck28 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:51 pm        (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                  For those that might not know about this engine / company 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>but would like to find out more about H J Garrett go to www.hoseeker.net  and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>under GARCO you will find information about this switcher including the kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>now on Ebay. It originally sold for $16.50.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chris B     You mention you have this assembled and running  .Did you drill 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>the holes for handrails, etc.? Did you have diamond and titanium tipped drill 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>bits for the job ?. Not only is this a very thick casting it is extremely 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>hard (at least mine is). I have an assembled running model  but I gave up 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>trying to drill the holes after to many broken bits. I didn't try to cut out 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>the windows even though I have a mill. I have the dual drive with the larger 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Pittman motor version and with the weight of the body it pulls great. One 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>thing more about the body casting. It has poor detail in the sense that it is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>not very distinct (raised). My observation from my one engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 6:50 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>switcher kit - castings only
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Chris B.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks for showing this. I have a similar unpowered boxed kit, including 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>cast brass sideframes, but no floor. Those original boxes were pretty flimsy, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>given the weight of the castings; my kit box is missing the plain end. I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>another Baldwin with the original flywheel drive and a third Baldwin that has 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>a noticibly wider hood. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> That third one was fitted with a later hobbytown of Boston power chassis by 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>a skilled machinist and pulls like a son of a gun. But I'm really not sure 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>where that wide hood version came from, Garrett or a later firm that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>contracted with Adams, or possibly Adams directly, as some have suggested 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>here that they mave have offered items on their own or to other wholesalers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I must get that new camera so that I can show more of my finds!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > This is a new ebay listing for a Garrett kit of castings for the Baldwin 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>switcher. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > I'm not bidding, I have one of these assembled and running, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > but I've never seen an unassembled kit for this engine without a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>drivetrain & motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > I thought this item might be of interest to the group, since this 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>variant might add to the intermittent discussion about early diesel cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>parts and business relationships between different makers of that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > ============
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Item number:220482297855
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > GARRETT HO BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVE KIT-CASTING SET ONLY 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 1 Bid $29.99 6d 1h 46m desc: This is a casting kit only; no wheels; no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>trucks; and no motor. The
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > shell is made of heavy brass [ 12 oz. ] comes complete with all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > accessories. The brass is in very good condition and the kit is in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > original box, with the directions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Item condition: C-6 Very Good 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   > Time left: 6 days 1 hours (Sep 24, 200916:12:05 PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                       Back to top 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                    Reply to sender 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>           |                        Reply to group            | 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                       Reply via web post            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                        Messages in this topic             (15) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                2d.                           Re: ebay 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>               Posted by:      "Chris B"             chrisb_acw_rr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                         chrisb_acw_rr 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:45 pm        (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       running without handrails Jim, mine was sold as is w/o box or detail 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>parts.  The cast detail is crude and low, just as you say, but to me that is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>part of the charm.  I don't ever plan to paint it or cut out the windows, the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>patina is pretty appropriate for my own vintage layout in the making. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> One of my main projects is building and running a roster (based on the WWII 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>era W&OD and its Rosslyn Va branch) that features 2-3% grades challenging 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> modified ultra heavy weight switchers from a slightly later era, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>(cary/hobbytown s-2's, and MEW 44T's, and Ivers 70Ts with modified hobbytown 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>drives) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I use the GARCO Baldwin, as it came from e-bay with the original drivetrain, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>to test grades on my layout in progress, if it can climb a grade alone, then 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I have something to measure my project engines against when they have to pull 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>3-4 metal varney
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> hoppers up the same grade.   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> But that's just an excuse, the real reason I run it is because it is such a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>beast.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Because I've gotten bogged down building and modifying the benchwork and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>inclines, I've been doing more woodworking for the past several months than 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>engine work.  (three decks around an 14 x 18 room, with continuous climbs 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>around the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> room from deck to deck,and multi deck staging in an adjacent utility
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> room)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I just won another big load of truscale track and crossovers on ebay, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>another part of the plan is to use vintage brass truscale for all visible 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>track.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Because I realized I better build the layout while I had permission from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>local mgmt, and not use the room as a giant engine shop till I retired in 3 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>years, I had to switch all work time from engines to the layout. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> so none of my project engines are anywhere close to handrail stage, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>haven't even started on the Ivers kits, but the Garco keeps running up those 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>grades and keeps me motivated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> If I was insistent on having handrails, since they wouldn't be
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> original anyway, and especially after hearing your experience, I think
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I'd look for alternate approaches...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have some old thin tarnished brass sheet, if I was going to try and avoid 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>drilling the casting, maybe it would be worth trying to cut pieces that would 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>match the footprint of the... uh...(running boards? deckplates? )  one long 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>piece on each side and one short one on each end where the handrails are 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>attached.  Maybe I could drill the sheet for handrail posts, solder those 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>onto the plates and add the railings to the posts, all as a separate 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>assembly, and then use something less permanent like CA to attach them to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>original deck surfaces.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> my excuse is going to be that a cheat method like this doesn't permanently 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>alter the vintage engine...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> not much chance of that happening, but now that I've brainstormed it, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>might be able to use that approach on the cary, MEW, and Ivers shells. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> they'll all need handrails eventually, and the W&OD had 6 s-2s, 3 44T's and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>3 70Ts, so  rather than do all twelve engines the normal way, since these are 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>all being built to run and the handrails will likely get some regular stress 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>from handling or falling off grades...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> it might be easier to make a jig for each cutting, drilling, and attaching 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>handrail posts for each of the 3 engine types.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> all down the road though, I have to get them all built and running before 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>they even need handrails!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> back to the basement!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 8:49:18 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>switcher kit - castings only
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> For 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> those that might not know about this engine / company but would like to find 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>out 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> more about H J Garrett go to www.hoseeker. net  and under GARCO you 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> will find information about this switcher including the kit now on Ebay. It 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> originally sold for $16.50.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         Chris 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> B     You mention you have this assembled and running  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> .Did you drill the holes for handrails, etc.? Did you have diamond and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>titanium 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> tipped drill bits for the job ?. Not only is this a very thick casting it is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> extremely hard (at least mine is). I have an assembled running model  but I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> gave up trying to drill the holes after to many broken bits. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> didn't try to cut out the windows even though I have a mill. I have the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> dual drive with the larger Pittman motor version and with the weight of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>body 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> it pulls great. One thing more about the body casting. It has poor detail in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sense that it is not very distinct (raised). My observation from my one 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 6:50 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ebay listing for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - castings only
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Hi Chris B.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >Thanks for showing this. I have a similar unpowered 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  boxed kit, including cast brass sideframes, but no floor. Those original 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>boxes 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  were pretty flimsy, given the weight of the castings; my kit box is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>missing 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  the plain end. I have another Baldwin with the original flywheel drive 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>and a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  third Baldwin that has a noticibly wider hood. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >That third one was 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  fitted with a later hobbytown of Boston power chassis by a skilled 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>machinist 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  and pulls like a son of a gun. But I'm really not sure where that wide 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>hood 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  version came from, Garrett or a later firm that contracted with Adams, or 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  possibly Adams directly, as some have suggested here that they mave have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  offered items on their own or to other wholesalers. I must get that new 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>camera 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  so that I can show more of my finds!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> This is a new 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  ebay listing for a Garrett kit of castings for the Baldwin switcher. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> I'm not bidding, I have one of these assembled and running, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  but I've never seen an unassembled kit for this engine without a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>drivetrain 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  & motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> I thought this item might be of interest to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  group, since this variant might add to the intermittent discussion about 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>early 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  diesel cast parts and business relationships between different makers of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> ============
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Item 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  number:220482297855
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> GARRETT HO BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVE KIT-CASTING 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  SET ONLY 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> 1 Bid $29.99 6d 1h 46m desc: This is a casting kit only; no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  wheels; no trucks; and no motor. The
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> shell is made of heavy brass [ 12 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  oz. ] comes complete with all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> accessories. The brass is in very 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  good condition and the kit is in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> original box, with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  directions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Item condition: C-6 Very Good 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Time left: 6 days 1 hours (Sep 24, 200916:12:05 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                       Back to top 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                    Reply to sender 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>           |                        Reply to group            | 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                       Reply via web post            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                        Messages in this topic             (15) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                2e.                           Re: ebay 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>               Posted by:      "the_plainsman" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            the_plainsman@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                         the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:08 pm        (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Hi Jim, Chris B. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The first assembled switcher body I found was at a show, almost tarnished 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>black.  It had all handrail posts installed very neatly and narrow front cab 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>windows neatly cut open as well as the side windows opened up, but the middle 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>side window divider was removed.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> My second "wide hood" version had all handrails and stanchions installed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>including grab-iron ladders at the rear sides of the hood near the cab front. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The cab side windows are accurately milled, leaving the center window 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>divider.  This is the one that came with the "professionally" installed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>hobbytown drive woth recesses neatly milled into the frame to accept the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>shortened hobbytown chassis. It also came with the original single motor dual 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>truck drive which I used for my first assembled shell.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I mentioned that the hood on my second assembled unit is much wider.  The 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>standard Garrett switcher's hood measures about 15/16" wide.  The wide hood 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>version measures 1-1/8" wide, a very noticable difference. This also has a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>single quarter inch diameter turnmed brass stack installed near the cab, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>a brass horn mounted on the cab front wall above the hood. Holes were drilled 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>for end railings, but none came installed.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Does anyone else have or know of this wide-hood variety or have any 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>information on it? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >            For those that might not know about this engine / company but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>would like to find out more about H J Garrett go to www.hoseeker.net  and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>under GARCO you will find information about this switcher including the kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>now on Ebay. It originally sold for $16.50.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >         Chris B     You mention you have this assembled and running  .Did 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>you drill the holes for handrails, etc.? Did you have diamond and titanium 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>tipped drill bits for the job ?. Not only is this a very thick casting it is 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>extremely hard (at least mine is). I have an assembled running model  but I 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>gave up trying to drill the holes after to many broken bits. I didn't try to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>cut out the windows even though I have a mill. I have the dual drive with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>larger Pittman motor version and with the weight of the body it pulls great. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>One thing more about the body casting. It has poor detail in the sense that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>it is not very distinct (raised). My observation from my one engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >                                                                       Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 6:50 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>switcher kit - castings only
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >     Hi Chris B.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   Thanks for showing this. I have a similar unpowered boxed kit, including 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>cast brass sideframes, but no floor. Those original boxes were pretty flimsy, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>given the weight of the castings; my kit box is missing the plain end. I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>another Baldwin with the original flywheel drive and a third Baldwin that has 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>a noticibly wider hood. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   That third one was fitted with a later hobbytown of Boston power chassis 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>by a skilled machinist and pulls like a son of a gun. But I'm really not sure 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>where that wide hood version came from, Garrett or a later firm that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>contracted with Adams, or possibly Adams directly, as some have suggested 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>here that they mave have offered items on their own or to other wholesalers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I must get that new camera so that I can show more of my finds!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > This is a new ebay listing for a Garrett kit of castings for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Baldwin switcher. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > I'm not bidding, I have one of these assembled and running, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > but I've never seen an unassembled kit for this engine without a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>drivetrain & motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > I thought this item might be of interest to the group, since this 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>variant might add to the intermittent discussion about early diesel cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>parts and business relationships between different makers of that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > ============
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > Item number:220482297855
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > GARRETT HO BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVE KIT-CASTING SET ONLY 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > 1 Bid $29.99 6d 1h 46m desc: This is a casting kit only; no wheels; no 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>trucks; and no motor. The
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > shell is made of heavy brass [ 12 oz. ] comes complete with all of the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > accessories. The brass is in very good condition and the kit is in the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > original box, with the directions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > Item condition: C-6 Very Good 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   > Time left: 6 days 1 hours (Sep 24, 200916:12:05 PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                       Back to top 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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>                        Messages in this topic             (15) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                2f.                           Re: ebay 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>               Posted by:      "Mike Bauers"             mwbauers55@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                         mwbauers 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:39 pm        (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Thanks for posting this. I've saved the auction page and the image  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> enlargements to a folder......... and they thought those couldn't be  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> captured..........  8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I should make some shots of my complete version. I'm unsure if the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> masonite floor on mine is original. But at least it has a  quite  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> suitable vintage drive that looks like the right one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I misspoke, that's some type of primitive plywood used as the floor of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> my model. I'm convinced it's a type of plywood that has not been made  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> for a very long time. It's -strange- .......
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I see the unpowered kit has a cut brass floor. I got my un-named and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> unboxed model some 20 years ago, with no handrails or other add-on  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> parts of any kind. Until very recently I had no idea how had made the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> models/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I had misplaced my camera for a while recently re-discovered it. I'll  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> have to make some shots this weekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> On Sep 18, 2009, at 4:43 PM, Chris B wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > This is a new ebay listing for a Garrett kit of castings for the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Baldwin switcher.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I'm not bidding, I have one of these assembled and running,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > but I've never seen an unassembled kit for this engine without a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > drivetrain & motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I thought this item might be of interest to the group, since this  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > variant might add to the intermittent discussion about early diesel  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > cast parts and business relationships between different makers of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ============
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Item number:220482297855
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 	
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > GARRETT HO BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVE KIT-CASTING SET ONLY
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 1 Bid	$29.99	6d 1h 46m
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > desc: This is a casting kit only; no wheels; no trucks; and no  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > motor. The shell is made of heavy brass [ 12 oz. ] comes complete  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > with all of the accessories. The brass is in very good condition and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > the kit is in the original box, with the directions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Item condition:	C-6 Very Good
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Time left:	6 days 1 hours (Sep 24, 200916:12:05 PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                       Back to top 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                    Reply to sender 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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>                        Messages in this topic             (15) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                2g.                           Re: ebay 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>               Posted by:      "Chris B"             chrisb_acw_rr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                         chrisb_acw_rr 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:05 pm        (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                              [Attachment(s) from  Chris B included below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Mike, mine has an old plywood floor too.  Picture attached, also 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>comparison of the inside of my shell and the ebay shell, either it's been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>milled differently by the maker or later....notice the tanks on mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I can't be sure if they are the same width, but I'd like to know if all of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>yours have tanks?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:38:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>kit - castings only
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks for posting this. I've saved the auction page and the image 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>enlargements to a folder...... ... and they thought those couldn't be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>captured.... ......  8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I should make some shots of my complete version. I'm unsure if the masonite 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>floor on mine is original. But at least it has a  quite suitable vintage 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>drive that looks like the right one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I misspoke, that's some type of primitive plywood used as the floor of my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>model. I'm convinced it's a type of plywood that has not been made for a very 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>long time. It's -strange- .......
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I see the unpowered kit has a cut brass floor. I got my un-named and unboxed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>model some 20 years ago, with no handrails or other add-on parts of any kind. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Until very recently I had no idea how had made the models/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I had misplaced my camera for a while recently re-discovered it. I'll have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>to make some shots this weekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Milwaukee, Wi 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> O
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ,___   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Attachment(s) from Chris B                
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 3 of 3 Photo(s)                                 	         	 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                     ebay's on bottom, CB's on top.jpg    	      	       	 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                     Chris B's GARCO casting.jpg    	      	       	 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                     GARCO switcher drive plywood base.jpg    	 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                     Back to top 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                    Reply to sender 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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>                        Messages in this topic             (15) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                2h.                           Re: ebay 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>               Posted by:      "Chris B"             chrisb_acw_rr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                         chrisb_acw_rr 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:15 pm        (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Mike, those pictures of my model are from when I bought it. all I did 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>to get it running was replace the tubing and screw the shell down.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I'm glad I shot inside the shell when I did, I'm not crazy about taking that 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>unit apart too often.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> If I get a chance this weekend, I'll measure the outside width.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From the comparison photo, I'd say it looks like it's narrower inside the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>shell than the ebay model.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 11:04:31 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>kit - castings only [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> [Attachment(s) from Chris B included below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike, mine has an old plywood floor too.  Picture attached, also comparison 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>of the inside of my shell and the ebay shell, either it's been milled 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>differently by the maker or later....notice the tanks on mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I can't be sure if they are the same width, but I'd like to know if all of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>yours have tanks?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:38:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>kit - castings only
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks for posting this. I've saved the auction page and the image 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>enlargements to a folder...... ... and they thought those couldn't be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>captured.... ......  8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I should make some shots of my complete version. I'm unsure if the masonite 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>floor on mine is original. But at least it has a  quite suitable vintage 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>drive that looks like the right one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I misspoke, that's some type of primitive plywood used as the floor of my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>model. I'm convinced it's a type of plywood that has not been made for a very 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>long time. It's -strange- .......
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I see the unpowered kit has a cut brass floor. I got my un-named and unboxed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>model some 20 years ago, with no handrails or other add-on parts of any kind. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Until very recently I had no idea how had made the models/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I had misplaced my camera for a while recently re-discovered it. I'll have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>to make some shots this weekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Milwaukee, Wi 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> O
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ,___
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                       Back to top 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                    Reply to sender 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>           |                        Reply to group            | 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                       Reply via web post            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                        Messages in this topic             (15) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                2i.                           Re: ebay 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>               Posted by:      "the_plainsman" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            the_plainsman@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                         the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:26 pm        (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Hi Chris B., All of mine have their tanks, but the ones on the wide 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>hood body casting with the hobbytown drive have been milled smooth on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>inside to clear the drive chassis.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Mike, mine has an old plywood floor too.  Picture attached, also 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>comparison of the inside of my shell and the ebay shell, either it's been 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>milled differently by the maker or later....notice the tanks on mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I can't be sure if they are the same width, but I'd like to know if all of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>yours have tanks?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:38:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>switcher kit - castings only
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Thanks for posting this. I've saved the auction page and the image 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>enlargements to a folder...... ... and they thought those couldn't be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>captured.... ......  8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I should make some shots of my complete version. I'm unsure if the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>masonite floor on mine is original. But at least it has a  quite suitable 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>vintage drive that looks like the right one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I misspoke, that's some type of primitive plywood used as the floor of my 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>model. I'm convinced it's a type of plywood that has not been made for a very 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>long time. It's -strange- .......
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I see the unpowered kit has a cut brass floor. I got my un-named and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>unboxed model some 20 years ago, with no handrails or other add-on parts of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>any kind. Until very recently I had no idea how had made the models/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I had misplaced my camera for a while recently re-discovered it. I'll have 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>to make some shots this weekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Milwaukee, Wi 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > O
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ,___
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                       Back to top 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                    Reply to sender 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>           |                        Reply to group            | 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                       Reply via web post            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                        Messages in this topic             (15) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                2j.                           Re: ebay 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>listing for Garrett (GARCO?) Baldwin switcher kit - casting 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>               Posted by:      "the_plainsman" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>            the_plainsman@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                         the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:21 am        (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       Hi Mike B., Interesting that you mentioned the older "primative-style" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>plywood.  A dozen or more years ago, an uncle brought over some old wooden 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>wine gift boxes he had scrounged from around as he thought they would make 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>good storage from my old Flyer trains (they did) and one of them, the largest 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>which did not have a hinged lid, had a top made of that same primative 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>plywood.   I guess it would be easier today to recreate that GARCO floor by 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>using some of the thin model-builders plywood available in the hobby shops 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>for model aricraft or boats, though, than in trying to find a the right gift 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>wine for the box wood instead of what's in the bottle!  LOL!  W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Thanks for posting this. I've saved the auction page and the image  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > enlargements to a folder......... and they thought those couldn't be  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > captured..........  8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I should make some shots of my complete version. I'm unsure if the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > masonite floor on mine is original. But at least it has a  quite  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > suitable vintage drive that looks like the right one.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I misspoke, that's some type of primitive plywood used as the floor of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > my model. I'm convinced it's a type of plywood that has not been made  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > for a very long time. It's -strange- .......
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I see the unpowered kit has a cut brass floor. I got my un-named and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > unboxed model some 20 years ago, with no handrails or other add-on  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > parts of any kind. Until very recently I had no idea how had made the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > models/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I had misplaced my camera for a while recently re-discovered it. I'll  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > have to make some shots this weekend.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > On Sep 18, 2009, at 4:43 PM, Chris B wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > This is a new ebay listing for a Garrett kit of castings for the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Baldwin switcher.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I'm not bidding, I have one of these assembled and running,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > but I've never seen an unassembled kit for this engine without a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > drivetrain & motor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I thought this item might be of interest to the group, since this  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > variant might add to the intermittent discussion about early diesel  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > cast parts and business relationships between different makers of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > ============
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Item number:220482297855
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 	
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > GARRETT HO BALDWIN LOCOMOTIVE KIT-CASTING SET ONLY
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 1 Bid	$29.99	6d 1h 46m
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > desc: This is a casting kit only; no wheels; no trucks; and no  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > motor. The shell is made of heavy brass [ 12 oz. ] comes complete  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > with all of the accessories. The brass is in very good condition and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > the kit is in the original box, with the directions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Item condition:	C-6 Very Good
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Time left:	6 days 1 hours (Sep 24, 200916:12:05 PDT)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                       Back to top 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                    Reply to sender 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>           |                        Reply to group            | 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                       Reply via web post            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                        Messages in this topic             (15) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                 3. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                          Athearn Hustler Repower                Posted by: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     "corlissbs"             corlissbs@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                         corlissbs 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:10 pm        (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>       For anyone who wants to repower an Athearn Hustler, there is an 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>Accurate Lighting, Hustler repower kit on Ebay.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Accurate-Lighting-Athearn-Hustler-Replacement-Motor-Kit_W0QQitemZ270457978193QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item3ef88d3d51&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11803
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 9/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Brass Alternating Current Steeplecab Locomotive
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
as Mike has already stated this seems to be an early fifties import,
there were plenty of them; I assume importers bought them off the shelf
in bulk quantities in Japan. This are either generic models, or roughly
based on Japanese prototypes. Like with the larger electrics - JNR ED
11, Ed14, ED16, ED17 - they were available already and beside the
somehow tiresome business to order models of specific US prototypes,
they all seem to have hopped on the opportunity to make some quick
bucks by purchasing Japanese models that resembled US types.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
However  I am curious about  the offset hoods... thats a feature I
never have noticed on the four wheel types, its distinctive for the
larger Baldwin Westinghouse double truck steeplecabs. I have two of
those tiny lokeys, both have the vertical shaft motor powering one
axle; the second axle is powered by a spring belt. Motor in both is DC,
but this often was changed from one run to the next. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Have shot some quick pictures on the veranda. I am pretty sure both
came with an trolley pole, the pan is an later modification. Also the
doorwas was wide open initially on the orange one, a previous owner has
added door and windows .
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 Would  be curious to see pictures of yours when your camera is fixed.
You may also check if there are pulleys left which once held the drive
belt. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
One mystery remains- a brass small (About 20 scale feet long)
steeplecab switcher, that has an Alternating Current motor inside.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
As my camera is MIA at this time, I will describe it to my ability:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
It has a pair of small hood at either end of a cab that takes up about
2/3 of the frame. hoods are off to one side (to allow for crew door on
the fronts.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Unit has four brass wheels, that were loose on the axles. Only one axle
is powered. There are bras nuts that hold the wheels firm on the axle
by sandwiching the wheel to the inside collar of the axle.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Vertical mount motor, with three rotor poles. I figured it was A.C.
current, as the field is an electromagnet, same as on an early Gilbert
Hudson, complete with field windings. It indeed is an A.C. motor, as it
runs one direction regardless of reverser switch on my power pack. Do
not see an A.C. reverser (or E-unit) though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
There is a small pilot hole in the middle of the cab roof (Possibly for
mounting a trolley pole or pantograph.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Inside, under the cab roof, it is stamped 'Japan'. Only maker I could
think of was Tenshodo, and HOSeeker has ruled that out. Redball was
also an early Japanese importer (I have an A-B set of C-liners with
Redball box- all brass) but I would imagine Redball would be more
detailed- only detailing on this is some corrugated vents on the sides.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Being Japanese, I can't imagine it being prewar, but it has an AC
motor, used more in the prewar days.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                              		
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11804
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Rivarossi 4-6-2
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                             Sorry I can't 
help. My AHM / Rivarossi Parts bible (on hoseeker) only went up to the 1977 
production runs. I have no idea where you can go for the "newer" 
items.    Sorry.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  rrdrigg 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 9:59 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Rivarossi 
4-6-2
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      need a copy of Rivarossi diagram for the 4-6-2 with the can motor 
  (1990,s).
                                                                                                                                                                                      Can any one help?

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11805
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 9/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: more Japanese Electrics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
While checking my steeplecabs, I took several other Electrics out for
pictures... all of them are of Japanese prototypes and were sold as
standins in the USA, mainly by Ken Kidder and International, but maybe
also by others. ( one of the ED16s came in a Tetsudo-Mokeisha box,
another one in a Ken Kidder box) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
pictures are: ED14.1, International/ Kawai, AC motor, spring belt drive
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   ED14.1, International/ Kawai, DC motor, spur  gear
drive
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   ED11.2, Ken Kidder/Tsubomi, DC motor, spur gears
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   ED17.15, Ken Kidder, DC motor, spur gears - ( have
an incomplete loco with spring belts too, and another one with
apparently had no means at all of transmitting power to a second axle,
this one seems to be the oldest one and has an AC motor) )
                                                                                                                                                                                      
all those locos above are either GE units, or built under license....
so they ahve a familiar look, same face and details as an Milwaukee or
BA&P  boxcab 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                   two ED16.1s' .... they seem to be the very wrst of
all, I had to buy four to get parts for one complete original
loco....every one was very incomplete, and the basic construction is a
disaster.  Cant believe any of them ever ran ok. So I put all the parts
to assemble a complete one in a box and stashed it away, and fitted two
of the bodies on ROCO drives of a Swiss "Gotthard" Be4/6 siderod
electric... a poor mans Virginian LC-1 boxcab.   Have a third body and
drive awaiting conversion. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
               
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11806
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 9/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Brass Locomotive Photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Group,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Found my camera. Here's two photos of the locomotive.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I got to thank Gerold for his photos of the Sacramento electric. I looked at International on HO Seeker as it seemed to have the same kind of vents, and ended up ID-ing three old reefers I have had for a while.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Anyone have a guess?

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11807
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 9/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Brass Locomotive Photos [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
the loco you have is even older - if not in years, then in design.... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
dont ask me what was the idea behind this, but the Japanese built some 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
extremely short "models" of their electric locos  in the early years, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and a number of them made it to the USA.   There was even a shorty four 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
wheel EF58 - in real life this is a 4-6-6-4 loco comparable to a GG1.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Reminds me of the "Zingers" of Hot Rod culture.... or Ed Roths creations.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
All the locos I have sent pictures of were big mainline motors - your 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
steeplecab is the only one that comes close to prototype proportions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11808
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Brass Locomotive Photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Steve N. Gerold E., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Steve, I have one of those brass bodies like yours, it seems to be patterned after the Baldwin-Westinghouse Steeple cabs.  The prototypes were used in the US as well as exported to Japan, at least as far as the body style.  As to a four wheel chassis as opposed to two, four wheel trucks, I'm not sure of prototypes.  I have tenativley paired mine with a bit later DC motored brass chassis having spoked wheels, but those are still mounted with those knurled nuts on the axles.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
International's ads of the very late 1940's shows these types of small electric locomotives, and notes the "dual-current" motors at first as well, so I would tend to think of yours as being imported around that time, and likely by International, although others were bringing them in as well, as Gerold has mentioned, for quick sales and profit  Some had three windows in each side, others two.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I will try to look up and cite some specific ads by issue and date in the next evening or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Group,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Found my camera. Here's two photos of the locomotive.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I got to thank Gerold for his photos of the Sacramento electric. I looked at International on HO Seeker as it seemed to have the same kind of vents, and ended up ID-ing three old reefers I have had for a while.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Anyone have a guess?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11809
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Odd Brass Electric
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              Thought 
I'd add this picture to the discussion taking place about identifying the brass 
"AC" Electric. I pulled this picture from Lenahans Locomotive Lexicon  
Volume II  Page 51. It states IMP 1950.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Everything about the cab matches 
except the third or middle window. It has the offset hoods, the walkways on top, 
a trolley pole on top to match Steve's picture where the hole is and the 
side vents. The frame however is not the same even though a four wheel set 
up.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I know very little abut these 
types of engines so I will leave it up to the experts but I 
have to wonder about the possibility of switching of  bodies with 
drives / frames. I know IMP products were prolific when it came to numbers / 
styles made. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11810
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Garrett-GARCO Baldwins; Custom Model Railways & Early Flywheel D
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim, you asked an interesting question, "This item (Garrett/GARCO Baldwin) was made in 1947 and the drive has a flywheel. Can anyone provide the earliest date where a flywheel was used in HO?"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I did find some interesting background on the Garrett/GARCO drive and possibly the "wide-hood" version...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Although I don't have any idea who used flywheels before Garrett/Garco when they introduced their locomotive, as you noted, in 1947, and do not have any complete years of the model magazines earlier than 1948, so for convience will quote their early 1948 ads. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Garrett's ads stated that they used "Special B-W (Baldwin-Westinghouse) Truck by Douglas Baker; Pittman Motor and Adams Bronze castings. (see Garrett ads in Jan.'48 MR pg. 68 & Feb. '48 MR, pg. 105.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Baker had their own ads in both of the same issues of MR noted above.  Their January '48 ad on p. 44, said in the fine print under their coupler description, "See these (the couplers) and Baker's deluxe power trucks featuring sealed gearbox, flywheel drive and rin insulated 42" wheels.  Baker power trucks are standard in the best kits."  So Baker was the earliest noted -- SO FAR. (I believe Lindsay was a bit later)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Baker's February 1948 MR ad p. 132, states, "Harry J. Garrett Co.; Adams and Son; Crescent Model Products; Hobbytown; Challenger; Indianapolis Car Co. use Baker Power trucks in the finest Diesel and Interurban kits available. Baker Mfg. Co., 1609 Fauver Ave., Dayton 10, O."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Something interesting occurred in the next month's issue of MR.  What we know as the Garrett/GARCO Baldwin was shown in body kit format on page 190 in an ad by Custom-Model Railways, PO Box 2114, Dallas, Texas. The ad was titled "Announcing the new 1948-A Baldwin-Westinghouse HO Diesel Electric Switcher." The $29.95 complete kit still came with flywheel drive motor and was available as a castings set for $9.95. However the same ad then listed 14 seperate distributors and jobbers it was available from, and Harry J. Garrett was merely listed as one of them.  It seems that Garrett had spun off his/their model line to another company, perhaps to facilitate sales to other competing distributors, as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Custom-Model Railways had two more large ads in the same March, 1948 issue of MR:  On the next page, a two colomn ad carries the photo of what appears to be an assembled, but wide hood version of the "Garrett/GARCO" Baldwin I mentioned having an example of previously, and quotes the casting set at $9.95 and says "HO (or OO)" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Their last and even larger ad on page 217 of that same March 1948 issue shows the familiar Baker Drive with flywheel fitted to a Varney F-3 chassis, and says that they would provide it fitted to the modeler's own Varney frame and trucks on an exchange basis for with a DC-71 motor at $21.50, or dual(drive?) for $28.50.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
But the most intriguing point notes that the repowered chassis will feature, quote, "A New Electric Fan (to cool motor) not shown" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
It concludes, "Amaze Your Friends, Out-pull your Buddies"
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The mention of some little fan (mounted on the drive shaft?) was new to me.  Anyone have or ever see it installed in a metal Varney F-unit?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Chris B,  Mike B,  W Jay W,  All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        These are pictures of my GARCO / H J Garrett and Co. Baldwin switcher and the box stating, on the end, Baldwin HO Loco Deluxe. ( I thought my engine had the dual drive but I was mistaken. Only 4 wheel drive but still pulls great. ). Add these to other pictures. Maybe someone ( Chuck H ? ) can create an album for the site out of all the attachments.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>    Hopefully my pictures are good enough to see the "wooden" floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     I do have a question for anybody. This item was made in 1947 and the drive has a flywheel. Can anyone provide the earliest date where a flywheel was used in HO ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11811
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Garrett-GARCO Baldwins; Custom Model Railways & Early Flywheel D
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Thanks for that information. I find it interesting how one model sold by 
GARCO / H J Garrett & Co has so much HO history tied to it. Just look at all the 
names involved, Baker drives, Adams & Son castings, Pittman motors and now 
Custom Made Railways plus other companies using the same products. I think 
DMC ( Dallas Model Craft ) would have to be in there too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
I'm glad your research has found something about the wide body Baldwin you have. 
It's so hard to even find out these facts since the original product kind of 
fits into the hard to find category.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            The part about the 
little fan to keep the motor cool is extremely fascinating as I have not heard 
or seen anything about it.( Oh there is so much to still learn about HO 
).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             I also hope 
others will respond about the earliest a flywheel was used.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 2:01 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Garrett-GARCO 
  Baldwins; Custom Model Railways & Early Flywheel Drive Mfgrs.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim, All,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, you asked an interesting question, "This item 
  (Garrett/GARCO Baldwin) was made in 1947 and the drive has a flywheel. Can 
  anyone provide the earliest date where a flywheel was used in HO?"

                                                                                                                                                                                      I 
  did find some interesting background on the Garrett/GARCO drive and possibly 
  the "wide-hood" version...

                                                                                                                                                                                      Although I don't have any idea who used 
  flywheels before Garrett/Garco when they introduced their locomotive, as you 
  noted, in 1947, and do not have any complete years of the model magazines 
  earlier than 1948, so for convience will quote their early 1948 ads. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Garrett's ads stated that they used "Special B-W 
  (Baldwin-Westinghou se) Truck by Douglas Baker; Pittman Motor and Adams 
  Bronze castings. (see Garrett ads in Jan.'48 MR pg. 68 & Feb. '48 MR, pg. 
  105.)

                                                                                                                                                                                      Baker had their own ads in both of the same issues of MR noted 
  above. Their January '48 ad on p. 44, said in the fine print under their 
  coupler description, "See these (the couplers) and Baker's deluxe power trucks 
  featuring sealed gearbox, flywheel drive and rin insulated 42" wheels. Baker 
  power trucks are standard in the best kits." So Baker was the earliest noted 
  -- SO FAR. (I believe Lindsay was a bit later)

                                                                                                                                                                                      Baker's February 1948 MR 
  ad p. 132, states, "Harry J. Garrett Co.; Adams and Son; Crescent Model 
  Products; Hobbytown; Challenger; Indianapolis Car Co. use Baker Power trucks 
  in the finest Diesel and Interurban kits available. Baker Mfg. Co., 1609 
  Fauver Ave., Dayton 10, O."

                                                                                                                                                                                      Something interesting occurred in the next 
  month's issue of MR. What we know as the Garrett/GARCO Baldwin was shown in 
  body kit format on page 190 in an ad by Custom-Model Railways, PO Box 2114, 
  Dallas, Texas. The ad was titled "Announcing the new 1948-A 
  Baldwin-Westinghous e HO Diesel Electric Switcher." The $29.95 complete 
  kit still came with flywheel drive motor and was available as a castings set 
  for $9.95. However the same ad then listed 14 seperate distributors and 
  jobbers it was available from, and Harry J. Garrett was merely listed as one 
  of them. It seems that Garrett had spun off his/their model line to another 
  company, perhaps to facilitate sales to other competing distributors, as 
  well.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Custom-Model Railways had two more large ads in the same March, 
  1948 issue of MR: On the next page, a two colomn ad carries the photo of what 
  appears to be an assembled, but wide hood version of the "Garrett/GARCO" 
  Baldwin I mentioned having an example of previously, and quotes the casting 
  set at $9.95 and says "HO (or OO)" 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Their last and even larger ad on 
  page 217 of that same March 1948 issue shows the familiar Baker Drive with 
  flywheel fitted to a Varney F-3 chassis, and says that they would provide it 
  fitted to the modeler's own Varney frame and trucks on an exchange basis for 
  with a DC-71 motor at $21.50, or dual(drive?) for $28.50. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      But the most 
  intriguing point notes that the repowered chassis will feature, quote, "A New 
  Electric Fan (to cool motor) not shown" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      It concludes, "Amaze Your Friends, 
  Out-pull your Buddies"

                                                                                                                                                                                      The mention of some little fan (mounted on the 
  drive shaft?) was new to me. Anyone have or ever see it installed in a metal 
  Varney F-unit?

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Chris B, Mike B, 
  W Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > These are pictures of my GARCO / H J Garrett 
  and Co. Baldwin switcher and the box stating, on the end, Baldwin HO Loco 
  Deluxe. ( I thought my engine had the dual drive but I was mistaken. Only 4 
  wheel drive but still pulls great. ). Add these to other pictures. Maybe 
  someone ( Chuck H ? ) can create an album for the site out of all the 
  attachments.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hopefully my pictures are good enough to see the 
  "wooden" floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I do have a question for anybody. This item 
  was made in 1947 and the drive has a flywheel. Can anyone provide the earliest 
  date where a flywheel was used in HO ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11812
						From: Chris B
						Date: 9/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Garrett-GARCO Baldwins; Custom Model Railways & Early Flywheel D
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, all, I've attached and added to the Garco folder a copy of one of those ads listing all the involved mfgrs.  I'm not the source for the scan, but when we last discussed these engines, I saved every image that went by.  Another ad also attached shows castings for larger diesel cabs, that have also been discussed.  I remember another topic on some 6 whl trucks I got from Sean N that included a flywheel, I'll have to dig those pictures up, but I wanted to include that 6 whl drive which I think Jim also has in the early E unit engines as another early flywheel truck.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 2:21:57 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Garrett-GARCO Baldwins; Custom Model Railways & Early Flywheel Drive Mfgrs.

                                                                                                                                                                                      






 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Thanks for that information. I find it interesting how one model sold by 
GARCO / H J Garrett & Co has so much HO history tied to it. Just look at all the 
names involved, Baker drives, Adams & Son castings, Pittman motors and now 
Custom Made Railways plus other companies using the same products. I think 
DMC ( Dallas Model Craft ) would have to be in there too.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
I'm glad your research has found something about the wide body Baldwin you have. 
It's so hard to even find out these facts since the original product kind of 
fits into the hard to find category.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                            The part about the 
little fan to keep the motor cool is extremely fascinating as I have not heard 
or seen anything about it.( Oh there is so much to still learn about HO 
).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             I also hope 
others will respond about the earliest a flywheel was used.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 2:01 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Garrett-GARCO 
  Baldwins; Custom Model Railways & Early Flywheel Drive Mfgrs.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim, All,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, you asked an interesting question, "This item 
  (Garrett/GARCO Baldwin) was made in 1947 and the drive has a flywheel. Can 
  anyone provide the earliest date where a flywheel was used in HO?"

                                                                                                                                                                                      I 
  did find some interesting background on the Garrett/GARCO drive and possibly 
  the "wide-hood" version...

                                                                                                                                                                                      Although I don't have any idea who used 
  flywheels before Garrett/Garco when they introduced their locomotive, as you 
  noted, in 1947, and do not have any complete years of the model magazines 
  earlier than 1948, so for convience will quote their early 1948 ads. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Garrett's ads stated that they used "Special B-W 
  (Baldwin-Westinghou se) Truck by Douglas Baker; Pittman Motor and Adams 
  Bronze castings. (see Garrett ads in Jan.'48 MR pg. 68 & Feb. '48 MR, pg. 
  105.)

                                                                                                                                                                                      Baker had their own ads in both of the same issues of MR noted 
  above. Their January '48 ad on p. 44, said in the fine print under their 
  coupler description, "See these (the couplers) and Baker's deluxe power trucks 
  featuring sealed gearbox, flywheel drive and rin insulated 42" wheels. Baker 
  power trucks are standard in the best kits." So Baker was the earliest noted 
  -- SO FAR. (I believe Lindsay was a bit later)

                                                                                                                                                                                      Baker's February 1948 MR 
  ad p. 132, states, "Harry J. Garrett Co.; Adams and Son; Crescent Model 
  Products; Hobbytown; Challenger; Indianapolis Car Co. use Baker Power trucks 
  in the finest Diesel and Interurban kits available. Baker Mfg. Co., 1609 
  Fauver Ave., Dayton 10, O."

                                                                                                                                                                                      Something interesting occurred in the next 
  month's issue of MR. What we know as the Garrett/GARCO Baldwin was shown in 
  body kit format on page 190 in an ad by Custom-Model Railways, PO Box 2114, 
  Dallas, Texas. The ad was titled "Announcing the new 1948-A 
  Baldwin-Westinghous e HO Diesel Electric Switcher." The $29.95 complete 
  kit still came with flywheel drive motor and was available as a castings set 
  for $9.95. However the same ad then listed 14 seperate distributors and 
  jobbers it was available from, and Harry J. Garrett was merely listed as one 
  of them. It seems that Garrett had spun off his/their model line to another 
  company, perhaps to facilitate sales to other competing distributors, as 
  well.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Custom-Model Railways had two more large ads in the same March, 
  1948 issue of MR: On the next page, a two colomn ad carries the photo of what 
  appears to be an assembled, but wide hood version of the "Garrett/GARCO" 
  Baldwin I mentioned having an example of previously, and quotes the casting 
  set at $9.95 and says "HO (or OO)" 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Their last and even larger ad on 
  page 217 of that same March 1948 issue shows the familiar Baker Drive with 
  flywheel fitted to a Varney F-3 chassis, and says that they would provide it 
  fitted to the modeler's own Varney frame and trucks on an exchange basis for 
  with a DC-71 motor at $21.50, or dual(drive?) for $28.50. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      But the most 
  intriguing point notes that the repowered chassis will feature, quote, "A New 
  Electric Fan (to cool motor) not shown" 
                                                                                                                                                                                      It concludes, "Amaze Your Friends, 
  Out-pull your Buddies"

                                                                                                                                                                                      The mention of some little fan (mounted on the 
  drive shaft?) was new to me. Anyone have or ever see it installed in a metal 
  Varney F-unit?

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Chris B, Mike B, 
  W Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > These are pictures of my GARCO / H J Garrett 
  and Co. Baldwin switcher and the box stating, on the end, Baldwin HO Loco 
  Deluxe. ( I thought my engine had the dual drive but I was mistaken. Only 4 
  wheel drive but still pulls great. ). Add these to other pictures. Maybe 
  someone ( Chuck H ? ) can create an album for the site out of all the 
  attachments.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hopefully my pictures are good enough to see the 
  "wooden" floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I do have a question for anybody. This item 
  was made in 1947 and the drive has a flywheel. Can anyone provide the earliest 
  date where a flywheel was used in HO ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11813
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 9/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Brass Alternating Current Steeplecab Locomotive [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I owe you guys some pictures. I'd better plug in my copy-stand and take shots with good lighting. Desktop shots are just not working out now. Maybe in daylight tomorrow?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Mine is a later model and type.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Mine has a plaque on the underfloor, showing it's from Gem/Olympia. That might make it a LMB import. While the drive is very similar, the superstructure is quite different and seems more modern. The Model work  is loaded with nice rivet-detail, louvered-hatches etching, and a more massive, but still made of folded sheet metal pilot..

                                                                                                                                                                                      Mine also has a square motor in it. But she runs just fine on DC

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      On Sep 20, 2009, at 8:40 AM, Gerold Eckl wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      [Attachment(s) from Gerold Eckl included below] 


                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve,

                                                                                                                                                                                      as Mike has already stated this seems to be an early fifties import, there were plenty of them; I assume importers bought them off the shelf in bulk quantities in Japan. This are either generic models, or roughly based on Japanese prototypes. Like with the larger electrics - JNR ED 11, Ed14, ED16, ED17 - they were available already and beside the somehow tiresome business to order models of specific US prototypes, they all seem to have hopped on the opportunity to make some quick bucks by purchasing Japanese models that resembled US types.

                                                                                                                                                                                      However  I am curious about  the offset hoods... thats a feature I never have noticed on the four wheel types, its distinctive for the larger Baldwin Westinghouse double truck steeplecabs. I have two of those tiny lokeys, both have the vertical shaft motor powering one axle; the second axle is powered by a spring belt. Motor in both is DC, but this often was changed from one run to the next. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Have shot some quick pictures on the veranda. I am pretty sure both came with an trolley pole, the pan is an later modification. Also the doorwas was wide open initially on the orange one, a previous owner has added door and windows .
                                                                                                                                                                                       Would  be curious to see pictures of yours when your camera is fixed. You may also check if there are pulleys left which once held the drive belt. 


                                                                                                                                                                                      One mystery remains- a brass small (About 20 scale feet long) steeplecab switcher, that has an Alternating Current motor inside.

                                                                                                                                                                                      As my camera is MIA at this time, I will describe it to my ability:

                                                                                                                                                                                      It has a pair of small hood at either end of a cab that takes up about 2/3 of the frame. hoods are off to one side (to allow for crew door on the fronts.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Unit has four brass wheels, that were loose on the axles. Only one axle is powered. There are bras nuts that hold the wheels firm on the axle by sandwiching the wheel to the inside collar of the axle.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Vertical mount motor, with three rotor poles. I figured it was A.C. current, as the field is an electromagnet, same as on an early Gilbert Hudson, complete with field windings. It indeed is an A.C. motor, as it runs one direction regardless of reverser switch on my power pack. Do not see an A.C. reverser (or E-unit) though.

                                                                                                                                                                                      There is a small pilot hole in the middle of the cab roof (Possibly for mounting a trolley pole or pantograph.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Inside, under the cab roof, it is stamped 'Japan'. Only maker I could think of was Tenshodo, and HOSeeker has ruled that out. Redball was also an early Japanese importer (I have an A-B set of C-liners with Redball box- all brass) but I would imagine Redball would be more detailed- only detailing on this is some corrugated vents on the sides.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Being Japanese, I can't imagine it being prewar, but it has an AC motor, used more in the prewar days.

                                                                                                                                                                                      .
                                                                                                                                                                                       




                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachment(s) from Gerold Eckl
                                                                                                                                                                                      2 of 2 Photo(s)

                                                                                                                                                                                      <KK 4wh steeplecabs.1.jpg>

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11814
						From: 69_Mustang_Man
						Date: 9/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay or 
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      OK Guys, I have another mystery.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I will send pics in a few..
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11815
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 9/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Any Ideas? I never knew Varney to make an atlantic? In brass none the less...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      All wood vandi tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The pilot deck looks like Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Valve gear and steam chests look like Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      It is hard to tell, but the motor is a Lindsay motor, very simular to the Varney V-3 in design, with the all metal encased body with the exposed worm gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Any Ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 12:04:54 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay or Varney Motor

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      OK Guys, I have another mystery.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I will send pics in a few..

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11816
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 9/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      At first I thought it was an MDC product from their early days. But I don't think it is. Probably is a hybrid of parts from various makes. Case in point: My Knapp Mountain has a Varney pilot deck, and wheels from who knows who. But all the parts look like they belong together.


                                                                                                                                                                                      If nothing else, if it is a hybrid, it is a testimony to the old ways of model railroading, when people used their imaginations and what they had on hand or could easily get in those early days, when very little was ready to run.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sun, 9/20/09, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a
 Lindsay or Varney Motor [7 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Sunday, September 20, 2009, 11:18 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      Any Ideas? I never knew Varney to make an atlantic? In brass none the less...
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      All wood vandi tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The pilot deck looks like Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Valve gear and steam chests look like Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      It is hard to tell, but the motor is a Lindsay motor, very simular to the Varney V-3 in design, with the all metal encased body with the exposed worm gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Any Ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 12:04:54 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay or Varney Motor

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      OK Guys, I have another mystery.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I will send pics in a few..

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean


                                                                                                                                                                                      



      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11817
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 9/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      There was a wood Vandy tender kit of about that size and lines,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
pre-60's. I was offered one in 1970 by a hobby shop for a buck. It was  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
not unusual to build a model with major parts and assemblies from the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
model catalogs.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I picked-up a model made like that quite a while ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
This might be similar to what you have.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Sep 20, 2009, at 11:18 PM, Sean Naylor wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> [Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Any Ideas? I never knew Varney to make an atlantic? In brass none  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the less...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Any Ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: 69_Mustang_Man
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> OK Guys, I have another mystery.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I will send pics in a few..
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11818
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 9/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Japanese Electrics
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Virtually all of these depicted electric locomotives on this thread are models or caricatures of Japanese prototypes which flooded onto the US market;  There seemed to be countless small nameless cottage  model shops that were trying to break into the market in Japan at that time (c 1948-58 or so).

                                                                                                                                                                                       The reason why it can be so difficult to trace out the provenance of some of these early brass models is that they were never formally imported, but  were brought home by the thousands (suitcases full) under the radar by returning servicemen toward the end of the Japanese occupation and thereafter.  The prototypes were all 3'6" gauge with much more narrowed car bodies, so even at their best as 'models', the width of the trucks of these locomotives as altered for HO standard gauge  commonly exceeded scale width of the car bodies- a feature that always discouraged me from working with these sometimes very interesting models. The drive wheels were also commonly oversized.

                                                                                                                                                                                      A 3-rail  #1 gauge tinplate JNR ED14.1.1 electric was also imported by Seki to the US  in the 1930's. The scale proportions were pretty accurate, and although technically a 'toy', it also wss a very handsome model.


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      Okoboji, IA 





                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11819
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Sean,  Although I do not have as complete hands-on knowledge of the early steam as many here, I agree with the theory it was assembled by a talented modeler from a variety of parts, some of which I do recognize.  I noticed that the boiler's running boards and firebox "skirt" used to hide a bit of the motor were both soldered on, that last detail not a usual kit feature.  Good looking loco, though and collection worthy!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Any Ideas? I never knew Varney to make an atlantic? In brass none the less...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> All wood vandi tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The pilot deck looks like Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Valve gear and steam chests look like Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It is hard to tell, but the motor is a Lindsay motor, very simular to the Varney V-3 in design, with the all metal encased body with the exposed worm gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Any Ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 12:04:54 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay or Varney Motor
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> OK Guys, I have another mystery.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I will send pics in a few..
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11820
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I recall that wood vandy tender kit--tried to get my local hobby shop to get 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
me one when I was a kid--I think that possibly Ayres made it?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 8:05 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
w/ a Lindsay or Varney Motor
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Hi Sean,  Although I do not have as complete hands-on knowledge of the early 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
steam as many here, I agree with the theory it was assembled by a talented 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
modeler from a variety of parts, some of which I do recognize.  I noticed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
that the boiler's running boards and firebox "skirt" used to hide a bit of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the motor were both soldered on, that last detail not a usual kit feature. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Good looking loco, though and collection worthy!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Any Ideas? I never knew Varney to make an atlantic? In brass none the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> less...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> All wood vandi tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The pilot deck looks like Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Valve gear and steam chests look like Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It is hard to tell, but the motor is a Lindsay motor, very simular to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Varney V-3 in design, with the all metal encased body with the exposed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> worm gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Any Ideas?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 12:04:54 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> w/ a Lindsay or Varney Motor
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> OK Guys, I have another mystery.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I will send pics in a few..
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11821
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: cross-list question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Someone on the G&D list raised a question 
regarding what I recall to be an old-time Pay Car.  The model in question 
is on page 75 of "The Book"  (as we refer to it)  "Model Railroading 
with John Allen"--  the car has a long open platform about half-way down 
one side.  As I recall this was a Red Ball car?  anyone recognize 
it?  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11822
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 9/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: cross-list question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have seen it somewhere before. I am pretty sure it is a Redball.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] cross-list question
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Someone on the G&D list raised a question 
regarding what I recall to be an old-time Pay Car.  The model in question 
is on page 75 of "The Book"  (as we refer to it)  "Model Railroading 
with John Allen"--  the car has a long open platform about half-way down 
one side.  As I recall this was a Red Ball car?  anyone recognize 
it?  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11823
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 9/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: cross-list question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Just thought of HOseeker:

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.hoseeker.net/redball/redball92Paycar.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                      I guess that about sums it up. Definatly redball. Can't imagine two companies making this.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] cross-list question
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Someone on the G&D list raised a question 
regarding what I recall to be an old-time Pay Car.  The model in question 
is on page 75 of "The Book"  (as we refer to it)  "Model Railroading 
with John Allen"--  the car has a long open platform about half-way down 
one side.  As I recall this was a Red Ball car?  anyone recognize 
it?  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11824
						From: Riverboy
						Date: 9/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: cross-list question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hey Group ,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Out of curiosity , I took a look on eBay and came up with these two auctions by the same seller . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
Item #
380158806123 

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Gloor Craft Models #370, 55' Payroll Car, Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
Item #
380158804088 

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Ambroid #H-24, 55' Payroll Car,1 of 5000, Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The same kit released by two other companies , but both are obviously made from the Red Ball castings , so you can't really say three companies brought one out since they all came from the same exact design . Still interesting though .
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Tod 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] cross-list question
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 7:24 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      
Just thought of HOseeker:

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.hoseeker .net/redball/ redball92Paycar. jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                      I guess that about sums it up. Definatly redball. Can't imagine two companies making this.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] cross-list question
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Someone on the G&D list raised a question regarding what I recall to be an old-time Pay Car.  The model in question is on page 75 of "The Book"  (as we refer to it)  "Model Railroading with John Allen"--  the car has a long open platform about half-way down one side.  As I recall this was a Red Ball car?  anyone recognize it?  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11825
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 9/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I got to handle one of those wood Vandy kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It was just two wood parts. The round cylinder of the tank and the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
squarish, angled edge sort-of cube of the fuel bunker. The bunker was  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
pre-shaped and drilled [bored-out] to slide on the main tank.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I don't remember there being anything else in the kit box.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
You could do the same today by drilling an over-sized squarish block  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to fit a wood dowel, then trim the shape of the cube into the edges of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the bunker with a table saw or miter-block.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Sep 21, 2009, at 4:49 PM, Glenn476 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I recall that wood vandy tender kit--tried to get my local hobby  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> shop to get
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> me one when I was a kid--I think that possibly Ayres made it?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "the_plainsman"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Sean,  Although I do not have as complete hands-on knowledge of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the early
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> steam as many here, I agree with the theory it was assembled by a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> talented
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> modeler from a variety of parts, some of which I do recognize.  I  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that the boiler's running boards and firebox "skirt" used to hide a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> bit of
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the motor were both soldered on, that last detail not a usual kit  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> feature.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Good looking loco, though and collection worthy!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Any Ideas? I never knew Varney to make an atlantic? In brass none the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> less...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> All wood vandi tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> The pilot deck looks like Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Valve gear and steam chests look like Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> It is hard to tell, but the motor is a Lindsay motor, very simular  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> to the
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Varney V-3 in design, with the all metal encased body with the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> exposed
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> worm gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Any Ideas? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11826
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: cross-list question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Glenn and Steve,  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Yes, Red Ball was the one who first developed that Pay Car model, Red Ball kit #92, and that is what I have always thought John Allen built his model from, unless plans were published earlier in one of the magazines. The kit appeard on the back page of R.B. Catlog #4 issued around 1947 and was last featured in R.B. Catalog #7 which was issued about 1952. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
It seems that the rights to manufacture or sell that Red Ball Pay Car kit went to (Bob) Binkley when he acquired Red Ball's passenger car line, HOn3 trucks and some freight cars in the early to mid 1950's, so it may be found in Binkley packaging too, and as late as circa 1960.  (I still do not have all the infomation on the deal between Red Ball/M. Dale Newton and Bob Binkley. Hal Carstens even reported once that Newton sold the entire Red Ball line to Binkley, but that seemed in error as Newton continued to catalog and sell most of the Red Ball line himself up until the years later sale to Howell Day.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
And as improbable as it seems, an entirely new kit for the Pay Car, done in 1970's craftsman wood car kit format was done by Quality Craft/Gloor Craft. I have one of those later kits, but not built, but have to dig it out to give you the kit # and whether QQ or GC.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Just thought of HOseeker:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.hoseeker.net/redball/redball92Paycar.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I guess that about sums it up. Definatly redball. Can't imagine two companies making this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] cross-list question
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Someone on the G&D list raised a question 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> regarding what I recall to be an old-time Pay Car.  The model in question 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> is on page 75 of "The Book"  (as we refer to it)  "Model Railroading 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> with John Allen"--  the car has a long open platform about half-way down 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> one side.  As I recall this was a Red Ball car?  anyone recognize 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> it?  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11827
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: cross-list question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Tod, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Good find!  Our postings crossed, but the later kit sold by Gloor Craft, while patterned after the same prototype as Red Ball, was a completely different model, with scribed wood sides instead of embossed card, wood ends instead of completely die cast metal, and spin cast metal details instead of the sharp die cast white metal Red Ball castings. And it was issued about 25 years after John Allen's model was bult.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Quality Craft did manufacture quite a few of those later Ambroid Heritage Line kits, which Gloor Craft bought the production rights from Quality Craft to produce and sell on their own after Ambroid discontinued them.  (Just as Northeastern re-released many of the Ambroid 1-5000 kits they manufactured first for Ambroid.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
But you are on the right track about some of the similartites.  The Red Ball and Binkley models, once out of the boxes and assembled are the same.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
And the later Ambroid (by Quality Craft) and Gooor Craft models, once out of the box and assembled are the same.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
But each era and either of the earlier models: Red Ball/Binkley is easy to distinguish from the the later ones: Ambroid by Quality Craft/Gloor Craft.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The history of some freight car models get as comlicated as some of the vintage locomotives!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hey Group ,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Out of curiosity , I took a look on eBay and came up with these two auctions by the same seller . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Item #
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 380158806123 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gloor Craft Models #370, 55' Payroll Car, Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Item #
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 380158804088 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Ambroid #H-24, 55' Payroll Car,1 of 5000, Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The same kit released by two other companies , but both are obviously made from the Red Ball castings , so you can't really say three companies brought one out since they all came from the same exact design . Still interesting though .
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Tod 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] cross-list question
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 7:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Just thought of HOseeker:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.hoseeker .net/redball/ redball92Paycar. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I guess that about sums it up. Definatly redball. Can't imagine two companies making this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] cross-list question
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Someone on the G&D list raised a question regarding what I recall to be an old-time Pay Car.  The model in question is on page 75 of "The Book"  (as we refer to it)  "Model Railroading with John Allen"--  the car has a long open platform about half-way down one side.  As I recall this was a Red Ball car?  anyone recognize it?  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11828
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: cross-list question - Red Ball Pay Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Tod and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In this illustration from Red Ball catalog #7: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://hoseeker.org/redball/redballcatalog07pg13.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
one can see the cast ends and end platforms labeled as castings which are built up from mostly wood shapes in the later Ambroid by Quality Craft/Gloor Craft kits.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
That is the easiest way to tell the built models apart at a show without the box. Maybe I should put the Gloor Craft model on the "build list" for the winter, and photograph it side by side with the Red Ball model to show both the similarities and the differences!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Tod, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Good find!  Our postings crossed, but the later kit sold by Gloor Craft, while patterned after the same prototype as Red Ball, was a completely different model, with scribed wood sides instead of embossed card, wood ends instead of completely die cast metal, and spin cast metal details instead of the sharp die cast white metal Red Ball castings. And it was issued about 25 years after John Allen's model was bult.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Quality Craft did manufacture quite a few of those later Ambroid Heritage Line kits, which Gloor Craft bought the production rights from Quality Craft to produce and sell on their own after Ambroid discontinued them.  (Just as Northeastern re-released many of the Ambroid 1-5000 kits they manufactured first for Ambroid.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> But you are on the right track about some of the similartites.  The Red Ball and Binkley models, once out of the boxes and assembled are the same.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> And the later Ambroid (by Quality Craft) and Gooor Craft models, once out of the box and assembled are the same.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> But each era and either of the earlier models: Red Ball/Binkley is easy to distinguish from the the later ones: Ambroid by Quality Craft/Gloor Craft.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The history of some freight car models get as comlicated as some of the vintage locomotives!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hey Group ,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Out of curiosity , I took a look on eBay and came up with these two auctions by the same seller . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Item #
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 380158806123 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Gloor Craft Models #370, 55' Payroll Car, Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Item #
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 380158804088 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Ambroid #H-24, 55' Payroll Car,1 of 5000, Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > The same kit released by two other companies , but both are obviously made from the Red Ball castings , so you can't really say three companies brought one out since they all came from the same exact design . Still interesting though .
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Tod 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] cross-list question
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 7:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Just thought of HOseeker:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > http://www.hoseeker .net/redball/ redball92Paycar. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I guess that about sums it up. Definatly redball. Can't imagine two companies making this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Subject: [vintageHO] cross-list question
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Someone on the G&D list raised a question regarding what I recall to be an old-time Pay Car.  The model in question is on page 75 of "The Book"  (as we refer to it)  "Model Railroading with John Allen"--  the car has a long open platform about half-way down one side.  As I recall this was a Red Ball car?  anyone recognize it?  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11829
						From: Riverboy
						Date: 9/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: cross-list question - Red Ball Pay Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jay ,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for correcting me ( and other too I'm sure ) on the differences of the kits . I am not that familiar with craftsman kits , and with a quick look  they look nearly identical . I was unaware of the different materials used in the construction of the cars .
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      All look to build up into really nice pieces . I just might bid on one of the cars tonight . Then again , maybe not . Too many " to do " cars already.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks again .
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Tod

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Mon, 9/21/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: cross-list question - Red Ball Pay Car
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 8:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Tod and All,

                                                                                                                                                                                      In this illustration from Red Ball catalog #7: 

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://hoseeker. org/redball/ redballcatalog07 pg13.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                      one can see the cast ends and end platforms labeled as castings which are built up from mostly wood shapes in the later Ambroid by Quality Craft/Gloor Craft kits. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      That is the easiest way to tell the built models apart at a show without the box. Maybe I should put the Gloor Craft model on the "build list" for the winter, and photograph it side by side with the Red Ball model to show both the similarities and the differences!

                                                                                                                                                                                      W. Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Hi Tod,
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Good find! Our postings crossed, but the later kit sold by Gloor Craft, while patterned after the same prototype as Red Ball, was a completely different model, with scribed wood sides instead of embossed card, wood ends instead of completely die cast metal, and spin cast metal details instead of the sharp die cast white metal Red Ball castings. And it was issued about 25 years after John Allen's model was bult. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Quality Craft did manufacture quite a few of those later Ambroid Heritage Line kits, which Gloor Craft bought the production rights from Quality Craft to produce and sell on their own after Ambroid discontinued them. (Just as Northeastern re-released many of the Ambroid 1-5000 kits they manufactured first for Ambroid.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > But you are on the right track about some of the similartites. The Red Ball and Binkley models, once out of the boxes and assembled are the same.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > And the later
 Ambroid (by Quality Craft) and Gooor Craft models, once out of the box and assembled are the same.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > But each era and either of the earlier models: Red Ball/Binkley is easy to distinguish from the the later ones: Ambroid by Quality Craft/Gloor Craft.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > The history of some freight car models get as comlicated as some of the vintage locomotives!
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Hey Group ,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Out of curiosity , I took a look on eBay and came up with these two auctions by the same seller . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Item #
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
 380158806123 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Gloor Craft Models #370, 55' Payroll Car, Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Item #
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 380158804088 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Ambroid #H-24, 55' Payroll Car,1 of 5000, Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > The same kit released by two other companies , but both are obviously made from the Red Ball castings , so you can't really say three companies brought one out since they all came from the same exact design . Still interesting though .
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Tod 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebu ild@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > From: Stephen Neubaum
 <computersystemrebu ild@>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] cross-list question
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 7:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >   
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Just thought of HOseeker:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > http://www.hoseeker .net/redball/ redball92Paycar. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > I guess that about sums it up. Definatly redball. Can't imagine two companies making this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
 > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Subject: [vintageHO] cross-list question
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >   
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Someone on the G&D list raised a question regarding what I recall to be an old-time Pay Car.  The model in question is on page 75 of "The Book"  (as we refer to it)  "Model Railroading with John Allen"--  the car has a long open platform about half-way down one side.  As I recall this was a Red Ball car?  anyone recognize it?  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11830
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: cross-list question - Red Ball Pay Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Tod,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
A life-long buddy and I kid each other that we have enough projects to last this lifetime and the next!  I think that's a good thing, though as there is always something to look forward to.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
One of the great advantages of our group here is how a question is asked and then those who have information join in to complete the pieces of the picture.  I had forgotten that Quality Craft did those kits for Ambroid, for example, and your contribution of the information from eBay completed the "modern" kit story.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Good luck if you decide to go for one of those kits and try it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Jay ,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks for correcting me ( and other too I'm sure ) on the differences of the kits . I am not that familiar with craftsman kits , and with a quick look  they look nearly identical . I was unaware of the different materials used in the construction of the cars .
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> All look to build up into really nice pieces . I just might bid on one of the cars tonight . Then again , maybe not . Too many " to do " cars already.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks again .
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Tod
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- On Mon, 9/21/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: cross-list question - Red Ball Pay Car
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 8:35 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Tod and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> In this illustration from Red Ball catalog #7: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://hoseeker. org/redball/ redballcatalog07 pg13.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> one can see the cast ends and end platforms labeled as castings which are built up from mostly wood shapes in the later Ambroid by Quality Craft/Gloor Craft kits. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> That is the easiest way to tell the built models apart at a show without the box. Maybe I should put the Gloor Craft model on the "build list" for the winter, and photograph it side by side with the Red Ball model to show both the similarities and the differences!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi Tod, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Good find! Our postings crossed, but the later kit sold by Gloor Craft, while patterned after the same prototype as Red Ball, was a completely different model, with scribed wood sides instead of embossed card, wood ends instead of completely die cast metal, and spin cast metal details instead of the sharp die cast white metal Red Ball castings. And it was issued about 25 years after John Allen's model was bult. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Quality Craft did manufacture quite a few of those later Ambroid Heritage Line kits, which Gloor Craft bought the production rights from Quality Craft to produce and sell on their own after Ambroid discontinued them. (Just as Northeastern re-released many of the Ambroid 1-5000 kits they manufactured first for Ambroid.)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > But you are on the right track about some of the similartites. The Red Ball and Binkley models, once out of the boxes and assembled are the same.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > And the later Ambroid (by Quality Craft) and Gooor Craft models, once out of the box and assembled are the same.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > But each era and either of the earlier models: Red Ball/Binkley is easy to distinguish from the the later ones: Ambroid by Quality Craft/Gloor Craft.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > The history of some freight car models get as comlicated as some of the vintage locomotives!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Hey Group ,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Out of curiosity , I took a look on eBay and came up with these two auctions by the same seller . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Item #
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 380158806123 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Gloor Craft Models #370, 55' Payroll Car, Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Item #
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 380158804088 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Ambroid #H-24, 55' Payroll Car,1 of 5000, Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > The same kit released by two other companies , but both are obviously made from the Red Ball castings , so you can't really say three companies brought one out since they all came from the same exact design . Still interesting though .
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Tod 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebu ild@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebu ild@>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] cross-list question
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 7:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Just thought of HOseeker:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > http://www.hoseeker .net/redball/ redball92Paycar. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I guess that about sums it up. Definatly redball. Can't imagine two companies making this.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] cross-list question
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Someone on the G&D list raised a question regarding what I recall to be an old-time Pay Car.  The model in question is on page 75 of "The Book"  (as we refer to it)  "Model Railroading with John Allen"--  the car has a long open platform about half-way down one side.  As I recall this was a Red Ball car?  anyone recognize it?  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11831
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: cross-list question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks, guys--For the era that John probably put it 
on the layout, Red Ball would probably have been the mfr.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  Riverboy 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 4:48 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] cross-list 
  question
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hey Group ,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Out of curiosity , I took a look on eBay and came up with these two 
        auctions by the same seller . 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            Item #
            380158806123 
              
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Gloor Craft Models #370, 55' 
                    Payroll Car, Craftsman Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            Item #
            380158804088 
              
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                
                
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Ambroid #H-24, 55' Payroll Car,1 of 
                    5000, Craftsman 
          Kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      The same kit released by two other companies , but both are 
        obviously made from the Red Ball castings , so you can't really say 
        three companies brought one out since they all came from the same exact 
        design . Still interesting though .
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                      Tod 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        
        
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Stephen Neubaum 
        <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
          Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: 
          Re: [vintageHO] cross-list question
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: 
          vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 7:24 
          PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                      
              Just thought of 
                HOseeker:

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.hoseeker .net/redball/ 
                redball92Paycar. jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                      I guess that about sums it up. 
                Definatly redball. Can't imagine two companies making 
                this.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, 
                Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
                  Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] 
                  cross-list question
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 
                  Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                        
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Someone on the G&D list 
                  raised a question regarding what I recall to be an old-time 
                  Pay Car.  The model in question is on page 75 of "The 
                  Book"  (as we refer to it)  "Model Railroading with 
                  John Allen"--  the car has a long open platform about 
                  half-way down one side.  As I recall this was a Red Ball 
                  car?  anyone recognize it?  
                  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.111/2386 - Release 
  Date: 09/21/09 05:51:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11832
						From: Mr Larry Doub
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I know some of you watch Ebay, but thought I would toss this up in case someone might be interested, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
It looks to me to be a Mantua 4-6-2? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Just thought I would share it,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-all-metal-HO-steamer-w-dispaly-track-No-motor_W0QQitemZ110436244252QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item19b6835b1c&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11833
						From: jay matz
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Larry 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      It is a John English.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jay

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Tue, 9/22/09, Mr Larry Doub <larry_l_doub@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Mr Larry Doub <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 3:19 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I know some of you watch Ebay, but thought I would toss this up in case someone might be interested, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      It looks to me to be a Mantua 4-6-2? 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Just thought I would share it,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                      Davenport Iowa

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay. com/Vintage- all-metal- HO-steamer- w-dispaly- track-No- motor_W0QQitemZ1 10436244252QQcmd ZViewItemQQptZMo del_RR_Trains? hash=item19b6835 b1c&_trksid= p3911.c0. m14


                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11834
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Larry,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      It is a John English model.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      It needs alot of help, but it is still a good start.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: Mr Larry Doub <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 3:19:52 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I know some of you watch Ebay, but thought I would toss this up in case someone might be interested, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      It looks to me to be a Mantua 4-6-2? 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Just thought I would share it,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                      Davenport Iowa

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay. com/Vintage- all-metal- HO-steamer- w-dispaly- track-No- motor_W0QQitemZ1 10436244252QQcmd ZViewItemQQptZMo del_RR_Trains? hash=item19b6835 b1c&_trksid= p3911.c0. m14


                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11835
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: eBay listed (John English) 4-6-2? // Parts Source - "Yardbird Tr
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Larry D., and All;
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dan Bush's Yardbird Trains, not mentioned recently here, would be a good source of parts for anyone wanting to tackle that Pacific you showed us or any other diecast J.E. locomotive restoration.  One can get new tenders, pilots and even whole boiler/cab castings. Here is his page on John English castings.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://yardbirdtrains.com/YBSJEparts.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If he had newly cast frames as well, one could build an entirely new version of the fifty-five+ year old classic!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 Dan Bush --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Mr Larry Doub" <larry_l_doub@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I know some of you watch Ebay, but thought I would toss this up in case someone might be interested, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It looks to me to be a Mantua 4-6-2? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Just thought I would share it,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-all-metal-HO-steamer-w-dispaly-track-No-motor_W0QQitemZ110436244252QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item19b6835b1c&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11836
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Larry,

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have several of those John English 4-6-2s. One I recently fixed up and cleaned the motor. Ran like a bat out of you-know-where, even with seven coaches behind it. Excellent runners, and, in my opinion, worth every penny, no matter the price.

                                                                                                                                                                                      For what it is worth, their 2-8-2 mikado shared the same boiler, motor, and trailing truck at least.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I grew up in Davenport myself. Many fond memories of the place.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Tue, 9/22/09, Mr Larry Doub <larry_l_doub@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Mr Larry Doub <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 2:19 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I know some of you watch Ebay, but thought I would toss this up in case someone might be interested, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
It looks to me to be a Mantua 4-6-2? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Just thought I would share it,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay. com/Vintage- all-metal- HO-steamer- w-dispaly- track-No- motor_W0QQitemZ1 10436244252QQcmd ZViewItemQQptZMo del_RR_Trains? hash=item19b6835 b1c&_trksid= p3911.c0. m14
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11837
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Were those seven John English coaches?  Mine 
wouldn't handle three---  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:39 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ebay listing for 
  an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      Larry,

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have several of those John English 
        4-6-2s. One I recently fixed up and cleaned the motor. Ran like a bat 
        out of you-know-where, even with seven coaches behind it. Excellent 
        runners, and, in my opinion, worth every penny, no matter the 
        price.

                                                                                                                                                                                      For what it is worth, their 2-8-2 mikado shared the same 
        boiler, motor, and trailing truck at least.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I grew up in 
        Davenport myself. Many fond memories of the place.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve 
        Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Tue, 9/22/09, Mr Larry Doub 
        <larry_l_doub@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
          Mr Larry Doub <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] 
          Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: 
          vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 2:19 
          AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      I know some of you watch Ebay, but thought I would toss this up in 
          case someone might be interested, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      It looks to me to be a Mantua 
          4-6-2? 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Just thought I would share it,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Larry L 
          Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                      Davenport Iowa

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay. com/Vintage- all-metal- 
          HO-steamer- w-dispaly- track-No- motor_W0QQitemZ1 10436244252QQcmd 
          ZViewItemQQptZMo del_RR_Trains? hash=item19b6835 b1c&_trksid= 
          p3911.c0. 
  m14

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.112/2387 - Release 
  Date: 09/21/09 17:55:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11838
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Re the English Mike and Pacific ... were those patterned after a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
particular prototype, or just generic models?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11839
						From: Model RailRoad Warehouse
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Red Ball Pay Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The advertising art for the Pay Car  kit is all that we receieved when purchasing Red Ball in 1975.  The molds etc had been sold off earlier (by M Dale Newton) when he sold the narrow gauge cars.  The nee Red Ball kit MAY therefore show up as Binkley, Green Caboose or BC Models. I do not recall an Ambroid 1/5000 kit of it. IF Ambroid had access to the molds I would bve quite surprised--they did not typicallyt use metal ends etc. BUT-- they DID follow the practice of having various kitmakers supply 1/5000 kits so it could be.  It was not unusual in the late 1950s for the design of craftsman kits to be pirated and rubber molds made [cheaply] to directly copy their parts.  There were duplicate molds made of at least one other Red Ball kit and certain reefer details. L English showed me some in his "collection" and BC models and we both had original metal mold sets  for one of the period cars.  BC (Bob Cook) tracked down the portion of the kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 line Newton had sold off in mid 50s before selling to Howell Day.  The relationship with Binkley has not been very clear to me.  M. Dale Newton did not seem to recall that when we visited and I do not believe John Anderson worked for them.   I do know Howell Day was quite "ticked off" (for him) at some of the direct copying with rubber molds.  Authentic Red Ball parts of the 40s-70s will always have a "ridge" along the backside wherer the feed sprue occured and was cut or sheared. There were exceptions on some wreck crane, rotary plow and flatcar side parts with different mold feed design. We did also farm out a very few rubber mold copies of some of our own parts in the 80s as we ran  two shifts on molding and couldn't keep up.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Model RR Warehouse  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out today !
                                                                                                                                                                                      
If you recieved a confirming order email you may phone 1-800-672-8762 (EST business hours) with credit card info or click here for PayPal (Mastercard/Visa/elctronicCheck payments: https://secure.paypal.com/affil/pal=sales@... . Send your PayPal payment to Sales@... .
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for your interest in Model Railroad Warehouse. We look forward to hearing from you again.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11840
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Pay Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Have found some pictures of my Pay Car ... when I bought it I was told 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
its a Red Ball, just inspected it - seems it has scribed cardboard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sides, and very thin cast ends. As it is glued together I can look 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
inside right now, but I will have to find a way to open it as the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
glazing came loose. May take better pictures if someone wants to check 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
for specific details.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11841
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Walthers coaches, sheet metal and wood cars with six wheel trucks. With Mantua loop couplers throughout the train, even.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I imagine the JE diecast coaches would not roll as well, though, being heavier.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Tue, 9/22/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 10:12 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Were those seven John English coaches?  Mine 
wouldn't handle three---  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:39 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ebay listing for 
  an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      Larry,

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have several of those John English 
        4-6-2s. One I recently fixed up and cleaned the motor. Ran like a bat 
        out of you-know-where, even with seven coaches behind it. Excellent 
        runners, and, in my opinion, worth every penny, no matter the 
        price.

                                                                                                                                                                                      For what it is worth, their 2-8-2 mikado shared the same 
        boiler, motor, and trailing truck at least.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I grew up in 
        Davenport myself. Many fond memories of the place.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve 
        Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Tue, 9/22/09, Mr Larry Doub 
        <larry_l_doub@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
        

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
          Mr Larry Doub <larry_l_doub@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] 
          Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: 
          vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 2:19 
          AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                        
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          
                                                                                                                                                                                      I know some of you watch Ebay, but thought I would toss this up in 
          case someone might be interested, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      It looks to me to be a Mantua 
          4-6-2? 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Just thought I would share it,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Larry L 
          Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                      Davenport Iowa

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay. com/Vintage- all-metal- 
          HO-steamer- w-dispaly- track-No- motor_W0QQitemZ1 10436244252QQcmd 
          ZViewItemQQptZMo del_RR_Trains? hash=item19b6835 b1c&_trksid= 
          p3911.c0. 
  m14

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.112/2387 - Release 
  Date: 09/21/09 17:55:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      

 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11842
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: looking for
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                              I am 
looking to buy something for a friend that is out of my league as 
I don't collect freight cars.   A Mantua box car, body only fine. with 
no broken steps. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           I'm told it is a late 50's 
Mantua, dull orange with black mountain goat insignia ( which I assume is Great 
Northern). Number on car is 10094. Actually looking for 3 but even one would be 
useful. If anybody has one contact me off site at  jimheck@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I guess there are none on Ebay 
right now but if you see one let me know. Any help appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11843
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Pay Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The Ambroid kit was part of their "Heritage Line", kit number 24, in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
1978 Walther's catalog shown as a "new item" as of Oct. '77.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Model RailRoad Warehouse" <mrrwarehouse@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball Pay Car
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The advertising art for the Pay Car kit is all that we receieved when 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
purchasing Red Ball in 1975. The molds etc had been sold off earlier (by M 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dale Newton) when he sold the narrow gauge cars. The nee Red Ball kit MAY 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
therefore show up as Binkley, Green Caboose or BC Models. I do not recall an 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Ambroid 1/5000 kit of it. IF Ambroid had access to the molds I would bve 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
quite surprised--they did not typicallyt use metal ends etc. BUT-- they DID 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
follow the practice of having various kitmakers supply 1/5000 kits so it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
could be. It was not unusual in the late 1950s for the design of craftsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
kits to be pirated and rubber molds made [cheaply] to directly copy their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
parts. There were duplicate molds made of at least one other Red Ball kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and certain reefer details. L English showed me some in his "collection" and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
BC models and we both had original metal mold sets for one of the period 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
cars. BC (Bob Cook) tracked down the portion of the kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 line Newton had sold off in mid 50s before selling to Howell Day. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
relationship with Binkley has not been very clear to me. M. Dale Newton did 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
not seem to recall that when we visited and I do not believe John Anderson 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
worked for them. I do know Howell Day was quite "ticked off" (for him) at 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
some of the direct copying with rubber molds. Authentic Red Ball parts of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the 40s-70s will always have a "ridge" along the backside wherer the feed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sprue occured and was cut or sheared. There were exceptions on some wreck 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
crane, rotary plow and flatcar side parts with different mold feed design. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
We did also farm out a very few rubber mold copies of some of our own parts 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
in the 80s as we ran two shifts on molding and couldn't keep up.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
out today !
                                                                                                                                                                                      
If you recieved a confirming order email you may phone 1-800-672-8762 (EST 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
business hours) with credit card info or click here for PayPal 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
(Mastercard/Visa/elctronicCheck payments: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
https://secure.paypal.com/affil/pal=sales@... . Send your 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
PayPal payment to Sales@... .
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for your interest in Model Railroad Warehouse. We look forward to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
hearing from you again.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Yahoo! Groups Links 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11844
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Pay Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Gerold and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Here are the complete illustrated instructions for the Red Ball model followed by a point by pont comparison I just completed.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://hoseeker.org/redball/redball92Paycar.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Red Ball/later Binkley:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
embossed card sides
                                                                                                                                                                                      
diecast metal ends and center "divider"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
diecast end platforms, highly detailed
                                                                                                                                                                                      
diecast gang of three "teller's" windows w/ integral security bars
                                                                                                                                                                                      
diecast metal parts show evidence of being cut from ridge/sprue (per Merle's previous comments)
                                                                                                                                                                                      
grooved wood floor
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Ambroid Heritage(not 1 of 5000) mfg. by Quality Craft (late 1970's)/later Gloor Craft (Feb 1987):
                                                                                                                                                                                      
scribed wood sides
                                                                                                                                                                                      
scribed wood ends and trim
                                                                                                                                                                                      
wood used for end platforms, plain in comparison
                                                                                                                                                                                      
teller's windows molded seperately, no window bars cast in Gloor kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
diecast metal details are spin cast w/o ridge or sawmarks on reverse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
plain wood floor with framework added with wood strips
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Hope this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Have found some pictures of my Pay Car ... when I bought it I was told 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> its a Red Ball, just inspected it - seems it has scribed cardboard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sides, and very thin cast ends. As it is glued together I can look 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> inside right now, but I will have to find a way to open it as the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> glazing came loose. May take better pictures if someone wants to check 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> for specific details.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11845
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Pay Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks Don, we were researching the Ambroid Heritage kit at the same time and I was sure it was late 1970's, thanks for confirmation and exact date.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The Ambroid kit was part of their "Heritage Line", kit number 24, in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 1978 Walther's catalog shown as a "new item" as of Oct. '77.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "Model RailRoad Warehouse" <mrrwarehouse@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball Pay Car
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The advertising art for the Pay Car kit is all that we receieved when 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> purchasing Red Ball in 1975. The molds etc had been sold off earlier (by M 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dale Newton) when he sold the narrow gauge cars. The nee Red Ball kit MAY 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> therefore show up as Binkley, Green Caboose or BC Models. I do not recall an 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Ambroid 1/5000 kit of it. IF Ambroid had access to the molds I would bve 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> quite surprised--they did not typicallyt use metal ends etc. BUT-- they DID 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> follow the practice of having various kitmakers supply 1/5000 kits so it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> could be. It was not unusual in the late 1950s for the design of craftsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> kits to be pirated and rubber molds made [cheaply] to directly copy their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> parts. There were duplicate molds made of at least one other Red Ball kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and certain reefer details. L English showed me some in his "collection" and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> BC models and we both had original metal mold sets for one of the period 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> cars. BC (Bob Cook) tracked down the portion of the kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  line Newton had sold off in mid 50s before selling to Howell Day. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> relationship with Binkley has not been very clear to me. M. Dale Newton did 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> not seem to recall that when we visited and I do not believe John Anderson 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> worked for them. I do know Howell Day was quite "ticked off" (for him) at 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> some of the direct copying with rubber molds. Authentic Red Ball parts of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the 40s-70s will always have a "ridge" along the backside wherer the feed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sprue occured and was cut or sheared. There were exceptions on some wreck 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> crane, rotary plow and flatcar side parts with different mold feed design. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> We did also farm out a very few rubber mold copies of some of our own parts 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> in the 80s as we ran two shifts on molding and couldn't keep up.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> out today !
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> If you recieved a confirming order email you may phone 1-800-672-8762 (EST 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> business hours) with credit card info or click here for PayPal 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> (Mastercard/Visa/elctronicCheck payments: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> https://secure.paypal.com/affil/pal=sales@... . Send your 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> PayPal payment to Sales@... .
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks for your interest in Model Railroad Warehouse. We look forward to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> hearing from you again.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11846
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I think the Pacific was an NYC loco--Mikado probably also?? or just was a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
different frame under the Pacific parts.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 11:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Re the English Mike and Pacific ... were those patterned after a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> particular prototype, or just generic models?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.112/2388 - Release Date: 09/22/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
05:51:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11847
						From: still just  frank
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi its me frank.   Yep it is a John English Pacific and it is a USRA light Pacific. The die cast NYC pacific is a Bowser. About the same size with its domes in different locations and it has a NYC cab.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
          frank
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I think the Pacific was an NYC loco--Mikado probably also?? or just was a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> different frame under the Pacific parts.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Re the English Mike and Pacific ... were those patterned after a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > particular prototype, or just generic models?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Gerold 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11848
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball - Binkley  was Pay Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Merle R., and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for the information on Red Ball, Binkley and the possibility of early duplicate kits during M. Dale Newton's and Howell Day's tenure.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As time allows, I will go back and recapture what was reported in the magazines back then about the sale of a small part of Newton's Red Ball line.  What seems clear is that Newton sold the Red Ball passenger car line, HOn3 kits and at least the Pay Car and the Dual Gauge Ilder flat car to Bob Binkley.  Those kits were dropped from the Red Ball catalog and added to Binkley's at that time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
But I was always confused about some of the other active Red Ball kits also appearing in Binkley's line, such as the modern PRR Semi-well flat car kit Red Ball #29, which was carried in Binkly's catalogs into the early 1960's as kit #HO-131.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Based upon your comments, I just  brought out my kits to compare, two of the original Red Ball kit # 29's in the "early 1950's "blueprint box" and two of Binkley's kits in both styles of his boxes, early brown and later salmon colored.  These Red Ball metal sided kits had prepainted sides at that time, and the Red Ball sides are lettered Pennsylvania #435475.  Interestingly, Binkley also prepainted his sides, in a different Pennsylvania scheme and #64155.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
These must be some of the few Red Ball castings that you mentioned that don't show the characteristic ridge where the sprue was cut off, although there is faint evidence of several round sprues centered on the back.  The Red Ball rivet detail is sharp and of high relief, and the smaller parts have the typical Red Ball "ridge" and cut off marks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
In contrast, while the detail on the Binkley kit is "ok", it has a lower relief and clearly looks to be differently cast, (spin cast?), as are all the rest of the castings such as end sills and bolsters, which lack the typical Red Ball production marks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Binkley instructions copied Red Ball's John Anderson illustrations, but changed the transformer load to a large crate, less skillfully drawn and left off John Anderson's signature.   No wonder that the gentlemanly Howell Day was "ticked off" if these were those unuathorized copies.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Another then active Red Ball kit which seems to be mirrored in Binkly's catalogs and illustrtaed price sheets is the Red Ball 1878 Hopper Car.  Again, John Anderson's illustration was used by Binkley, but I do not have that Binkley kit to compare.  It will be interesting to see what additional information, if any I can uncover.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As always, thanks for the information.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The advertising art for the Pay Car  kit is all that we receieved when purchasing Red Ball in 1975.  The molds etc had been sold off earlier (by M Dale Newton) when he sold the narrow gauge cars.  The nee Red Ball kit MAY therefore show up as Binkley, Green Caboose or BC Models. I do not recall an Ambroid 1/5000 kit of it. IF Ambroid had access to the molds I would bve quite surprised--they did not typicallyt use metal ends etc. BUT-- they DID follow the practice of having various kitmakers supply 1/5000 kits so it could be.  It was not unusual in the late 1950s for the design of craftsman kits to be pirated and rubber molds made [cheaply] to directly copy their parts.  There were duplicate molds made of at least one other Red Ball kit and certain reefer details. L English showed me some in his "collection" and BC models and we both had original metal mold sets  for one of the period cars.  BC (Bob Cook) tracked down the portion of the kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  line Newton had sold off in mid 50s before selling to Howell Day.  The relationship with Binkley has not been very clear to me.  M. Dale Newton did not seem to recall that when we visited and I do not believe John Anderson worked for them.   I do know Howell Day was quite "ticked off" (for him) at some of the direct copying with rubber molds.  Authentic Red Ball parts of the 40s-70s will always have a "ridge" along the backside wherer the feed sprue occured and was cut or sheared. There were exceptions on some wreck crane, rotary plow and flatcar side parts with different mold feed design. We did also farm out a very few rubber mold copies of some of our own parts in the 80s as we ran  two shifts on molding and couldn't keep up.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Model RR Warehouse  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out today !
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> If you recieved a confirming order email you may phone 1-800-672-8762 (EST business hours) with credit card info or click here for PayPal (Mastercard/Visa/elctronicCheck payments: https://secure.paypal.com/affil/pal=sales@... . Send your PayPal payment to Sales@... .
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks for your interest in Model Railroad Warehouse. We look forward to hearing from you again.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11849
						From: orangetrainman
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: information please
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      can anyone give me info on Volmer kits, there is one on an auction site im considering. are they easy to build, what material are they made from
                                                                                                                                                                                      
any advice would be apriciated
                                                                                                                                                                                      
thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11850
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: information please
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I assume you refer to structure kits--generally styrene.  Usually nice die 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
work.  However, the instructions are usually a rather poor exploded view. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "orangetrainman" <orangetrainman33@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:45 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] information please
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> can anyone give me info on Volmer kits, there is one on an auction site im 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> considering. are they easy to build, what material are they made from
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> any advice would be apriciated
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.112/2388 - Release Date: 09/22/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
05:51:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11851
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 9/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: information please
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The simple exploded view is/was very common on not only Vollmer (sic), but 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
also Kibri, Faller , Pola etc.  Since their original market was in Europe it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
was easier than trying to write instructions in half a dozen different 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
languages.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 1:37 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] information please
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
>I assume you refer to structure kits--generally styrene.  Usually nice die
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> work.  However, the instructions are usually a rather poor exploded view.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "orangetrainman" <orangetrainman33@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:45 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] information please
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> can anyone give me info on Volmer kits, there is one on an auction site 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> im
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> considering. are they easy to build, what material are they made from
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> any advice would be apriciated
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.112/2388 - Release Date: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 09/22/09
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 05:51:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11852
						From: Mike Sloane
						Date: 9/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: information please
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Aside from the European architecture (that, with a little effort, can be 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
modified to look more North American), I never found any difficulty in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
assembling any Vollmer kits using the exploded diagrams. And the parts 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
fit was far superior to many of the current domestic kits. Another nice 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
feature, if you don't paint your kits, is the use of various colors 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
(unlike some current kits that are monochrome).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The simple exploded view is/was very common on not only Vollmer (sic), but
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> also Kibri, Faller , Pola etc. Since their original market was in Europe it
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> was easier than trying to write instructions in half a dozen different
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> languages.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11853
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 9/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: information please
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      George,  Following up on this, in addition to Vollmer kits being made of styrene, as Glenn has mentioned, I'd like to add that many of their structures were of European design -- similar to Kibri's --although some appear to be American.  I don't own any of these myself, preferring Alexander, Campbell, E. Suydam and Timberline Models and similar wood and/or metal construction material of American prototype structures.   

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Walthers' description of them states;  "These easy-to-build kits consist of 'appropriately' colored injection molded styrene plastic parts (including clear window 'glass').  Construction is further simplified by use of numbered parts co-ordinated with instructions.  Larger kits may take a bit longer to build, due to the increased number of parts that make up these kits."  

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm not sure how explanatory the instruction sheets are, but Walthers is saying they are easy to build.  While the similar Kibri's kits are expressly said by Walthers to be European design -- "Kits consist of a large range of European prototypes" -- they also go on to say "With minor modifications most can easily be Americanized."  I would think that at least some of Vollmer's kits could also be "Americanized," unless you prefer them as is.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11854
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: information please
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      In 1967 I was in the Washington DC area courtesy  of my Uncle Sam--I managed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to hook up with John Armstrong's group.  About this time the first N Scale 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
items for  Atlas began to come through to Ted Stepek--who did a lot of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
illustration work for Atlas.  We had several sessions around the kitchen 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
table Friday nights discussing revision of a lot of the instructions to more 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
usable step-by-step  sheets.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:45 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] information please
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The simple exploded view is/was very common on not only Vollmer (sic), but
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> also Kibri, Faller , Pola etc.  Since their original market was in Europe 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> it
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> was easier than trying to write instructions in half a dozen different
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> languages.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 1:37 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] information please
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>I assume you refer to structure kits--generally styrene.  Usually nice die
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> work.  However, the instructions are usually a rather poor exploded view.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> From: "orangetrainman" <orangetrainman33@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:45 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Subject: [vintageHO] information please
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> can anyone give me info on Volmer kits, there is one on an auction site
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> im
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> considering. are they easy to build, what material are they made from
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> any advice would be apriciated
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.112/2388 - Release Date:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 09/22/09
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> 05:51:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.112/2389 - Release Date: 09/22/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
17:54:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11855
						From: Mr Larry Doub
						Date: 9/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "still just  frank" <toptrain2100@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Hi its me frank.   Yep it is a John English Pacific and it is a USRA light Pacific. The die cast NYC pacific is a Bowser. About the same size with its domes in different locations and it has a NYC cab.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>           frank
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I think the Pacific was an NYC loco--Mikado probably also?? or just was a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > different frame under the Pacific parts.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Re the English Mike and Pacific ... were those patterned after a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > particular prototype, or just generic models?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      If this is the same one I have two of, they do run pretty darn good for old school, I have one that is really a good puller, and one that needs a backshopping and siderod work, but it does run.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
But I see these all the time in Ebay, from good used to like new going from prices ranging from 25-40.00.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11856
						From: Model RailRoad Warehouse
						Date: 9/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Red Ball Parts was Paycars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: Red Ball Parts was Paycars

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Authentic PRR Semiwell flat car sides of the 50-70s period SHOULD have those round "dimples" mentioned. That mold feed was different, laborioous and required time consuming mold disassembly. It is one part we later spincast as indicated in my earlier note. I believe the prepainted sides were of Oregon production so a possibility of Binkley collaboration exists.  Newton was doing his best to retire-- he farmed the line out to an architect in Elkhart,IN for a couple years but it returned to Medford.  The Elkhart  man told me it was too time consuming and Newton never discussed the matter with me so connecting those dots with the Binkley info may give a true or false picture.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      There WERE two moldsets for the 1878 Ore Car-Hopper Car  (many believed it was Quincy and Torch Lake and  it was--but also just a  very common prototype). One moldset migrated to Binkley.  I never had the opportunity to do a close comparison of the parts. We also did injection molded styrene in our original molds in the early 1980s so this is one of the authentic Red Ball  cars  also  found in Cannonball Car Shops boxes & instructions.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Model RR Warehouse 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out today !
                                                                                                                                                                                      your PayPal payment to Sales@... .
                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for your interest in Model Railroad Warehouse. We look forward to hearing from you again. 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 8:24:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Digest Number 1731[3 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                      







                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Messages In This Digest (19 Messages) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      1a. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: eBay listed (John English) 4-6-2? // Parts Source - "Yardbird Tr From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      2a. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2? From: Stephen Neubaum 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      2b. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2? From: Glenn476 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      2c. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2? From: Gerold Eckl 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      2d. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2? From: Stephen Neubaum 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      2e. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2? From: Glenn476 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      2f. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2? From: still just frank 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      3a. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Red Ball Pay Car From: Model RailRoad Warehouse 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      3b. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Red Ball Pay Car From: Gerold Eckl 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      3c. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Red Ball Pay Car From: Don Dellmann 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      3d. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Red Ball Pay Car From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      3e. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Red Ball Pay Car From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      3f. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Red Ball - Binkley  was Pay Car From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      4. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      looking for From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      5a. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      information please From: orangetrainman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      5b. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: information please From: Glenn476 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      5c. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: information please From: Don Dellmann 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      5d. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: information please From: Mike Sloane 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      5e. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: information please From: erieberk@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Messages 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      1a. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: eBay listed (John English) 4-6-2? // Parts Source - "Yardbird Tr 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted by: "the_plainsman" the_plainsman@...   the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:01 am (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Larry D., and All;

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dan Bush's Yardbird Trains, not mentioned recently here, would be a good source of parts for anyone wanting to tackle that Pacific you showed us or any other diecast J.E. locomotive restoration. One can get new tenders, pilots and even whole boiler/cab castings. Here is his page on John English castings.

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://yardbirdtrai ns.com/YBSJEpart s.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                      If he had newly cast frames as well, one could build an entirely new version of the fifty-five+ year old classic!

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Dan Bush --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Mr Larry Doub" <larry_l_doub@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I know some of you watch Ebay,
 
                                                                                                                                                                                       but thought I would toss this up in case someone might be interested, 
                                                                                                                                                                                       > It looks to me to be a Mantua 4-6-2? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Just thought I would share it,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > http://cgi.ebay. com/Vintage- all-metal- HO-steamer- w-dispaly- track-No- motor_W0QQitemZ1 10436244252QQcmd ZViewItemQQptZMo del_RR_Trains? hash=item19b6835 b1c&_trksid= p3911.c0. m14
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

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                                                                                                                                                                                      2a. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted by: "Stephen Neubaum" computersystemrebuild@...   railwaymodeler 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:40 am (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Larry,

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have several of those John English 4-6-2s. One I recently fixed up and cleaned the motor. Ran like a bat out of you-know-where, even with seven coaches behind it. Excellent runners, and, in my opinion, worth every penny, no matter the price.

                                                                                                                                                                                      For what it is worth, their 2-8-2 mikado shared the same boiler, motor, and trailing truck at least.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I grew up in Davenport myself. Many fond memories of the place.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Tue, 9/22/09, Mr Larry Doub <larry_l_doub@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Mr Larry Doub <larry_l_doub@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Ebay listing for
 an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 2:19 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      I know some of you watch Ebay, but thought I would toss this up in case someone might be interested, 

                                                                                                                                                                                      It looks to me to be a Mantua 4-6-2? 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Just thought I would share it,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Larry L Doub

                                                                                                                                                                                      Davenport Iowa

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay. com/Vintage- all-metal- HO-steamer- w-dispaly- track-No- motor_W0QQitemZ1 10436244252QQcmd ZViewItemQQptZMo del_RR_Trains? hash=item19b6835 b1c&_trksid= p3911.c0. m14









                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

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                                                                                                                                                                                      Messages in this topic (10) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      2b. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted by: "Glenn476" glenn476@...   glennk28 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:12 am (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Were those seven John English coaches? Mine wouldn't handle three--- gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Stephen Neubaum 
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:39 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Larry,

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have several of those John English 4-6-2s. One I recently fixed up and cleaned the motor. Ran like a bat out of you-know-where, even with seven coaches behind it. Excellent runners, and, in my opinion, worth every penny, no matter the price.

                                                                                                                                                                                      For what it is worth, their 2-8-2 mikado shared the same boiler, motor, and trailing truck at least.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I grew up in Davenport myself. Many fond memories of the place.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve
 Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Tue, 9/22/09, Mr Larry Doub <larry_l_doub@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Mr Larry Doub <larry_l_doub@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 2:19 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      I know some of you watch Ebay, but thought I would toss this up in case someone might be interested, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      It looks to me to be a Mantua 4-6-2? 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Just thought I would share it,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                      Davenport Iowa

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay. com/Vintage-
 all-metal- HO-steamer- w-dispaly- track-No- motor_W0QQitemZ1 10436244252QQcmd ZViewItemQQptZMo del_RR_Trains? hash=item19b6835 b1c&_trksid= p3911.c0. m14

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                                                                                                                                                                                      2c. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted by: "Gerold Eckl" corv8@...   corv9 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:52 am (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Re the English Mike and Pacific ... were those patterned after a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      particular prototype, or just generic models?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gerold

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

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                                                                                                                                                                                      2d. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted by: "Stephen Neubaum" computersystemrebuild@...   railwaymodeler 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:30 pm (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Walthers coaches, sheet metal and wood cars with six wheel trucks. With Mantua loop couplers throughout the train, even.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I imagine the JE diecast coaches would not roll as well, though, being heavier.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Tue, 9/22/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 10:12 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      Were those
 seven John English coaches?  Mine 
                                                                                                                                                                                      wouldn't handle three---  gj

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Stephen Neubaum 
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:39 
                                                                                                                                                                                      AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ebay listing for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?


                                                                                                                                                                                      Larry,

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have several of those John English 
                                                                                                                                                                                      4-6-2s. One I recently fixed up and cleaned the motor. Ran like a bat 
                                                                                                                                                                                      out of you-know-where, even with seven coaches behind it. Excellent 
                                                                                                                                                                                      runners, and, in my opinion, worth every penny, no matter the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      price.

                                                                                                                                                                                      For what it is worth, their 2-8-2 mikado shared the same 
                                                                                                                                                                                      boiler, motor, and trailing truck at least.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I grew up in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Davenport myself. Many fond memories of the place.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- On Tue, 9/22/09, Mr Larry Doub 
                                                                                                                                                                                      <larry_l_doub@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Mr Larry Doub <larry_l_doub@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject:
 [vintageHO] 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 2:19 
                                                                                                                                                                                      AM

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                      I know some of you watch Ebay, but thought I would toss this up in 
                                                                                                                                                                                      case someone might be interested, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      It looks to me to be a Mantua 
                                                                                                                                                                                      4-6-2? 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Just thought I would share it,

                                                                                                                                                                                      Larry L 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                      Davenport Iowa

                                                                                                                                                                                      http://cgi.ebay. com/Vintage- all-metal- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      HO-steamer- w-dispaly- track-No- motor_W0QQitemZ1 10436244252QQcmd 
                                                                                                                                                                                      ZViewItemQQptZMo del_RR_Trains? hash=item19b6835 b1c&_trksid= 
                                                                                                                                                                                      p3911.c0. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      m14

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
                                                                                                                                                                                      www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.112/2387 - Release 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: 09/21/09 17:55:00









                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

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                                                                                                                                                                                      2e. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted by: "Glenn476" glenn476@...   glennk28 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:36 pm (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      I think the Pacific was an NYC loco--Mikado probably also?? or just was a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      different frame under the Pacific parts. gj

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 11:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2?

                                                                                                                                                                                      > Re the English Mike and Pacific ... were those patterned after a
                                                                                                                                                                                      > particular prototype, or just generic models?
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Yahoo! Groups
 Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      >

                                                                                                                                                                                      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.112/2388 - Release Date: 09/22/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                      05:51:00

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

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                                                                                                                                                                                      2f. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Ebay listing for an Old Diecast HO 4-6-2? 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted by: "still just frank" toptrain2100@...   toptrain2100 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:39 pm (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi its me frank. Yep it is a John English Pacific and it is a USRA light Pacific. The die cast NYC pacific is a Bowser. About the same size with its domes in different locations and it has a NYC cab.
                                                                                                                                                                                      frank
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I think the Pacific was an NYC loco--Mikado probably also?? or just was a 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > different frame under the Pacific parts. gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Re the English Mike and Pacific ... were those patterned after a
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > particular prototype, or just generic models?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > > Gerold

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

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                                                                                                                                                                                      3a. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Red Ball Pay Car 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted by: "Model RailRoad Warehouse" mrrwarehouse@...   mrrwarehouse 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:04 pm (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      




                                                                                                                                                                                      The advertising art for the Pay Car  kit is all that we receieved when purchasing Red Ball in 1975.  The molds etc had been sold off earlier (by M Dale Newton) when he sold the narrow gauge cars.  The nee Red Ball kit MAY therefore show up as Binkley, Green Caboose or BC Models. I do not recall an Ambroid 1/5000 kit of it. IF Ambroid had access to the molds I would bve quite surprised--they did not typicallyt use metal ends etc. BUT-- they DID follow the practice of having various kitmakers supply 1/5000 kits so it could be.  It was not unusual in the late 1950s for the design of craftsman kits to be pirated and rubber molds made [cheaply] to directly copy their parts.  There were duplicate molds made of at least one other Red Ball kit and certain reefer details. L English showed me some in his "collection" and
 BC models and we both had original metal mold sets  for one of the period cars.  BC (Bob Cook) tracked down the portion of the kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      line Newton had sold off in mid 50s before selling to Howell Day.  The relationship with Binkley has not been very clear to me.  M. Dale Newton did not seem to recall that when we visited and I do not believe John Anderson worked for them.   I do know Howell Day was quite "ticked off" (for him) at some of the direct copying with rubber molds.  Authentic Red Ball parts of the 40s-70s will always have a "ridge" along the backside wherer the feed sprue occured and was cut or sheared. There were exceptions on some wreck crane, rotary plow and flatcar side parts with different mold feed design. We did also farm out a very few rubber mold copies of some of our own parts in the 80s as we ran  two shifts on molding and couldn't keep up.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Merle
 Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      Model RR Warehouse  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse. com ! Check it out today !
                                                                                                                                                                                      If you recieved a confirming order email you may phone 1-800-672-8762 (EST business hours) with credit card info or click here for PayPal (Mastercard/ Visa/elctronicCh eck payments: https://secure. paypal.com/ affil/pal= sales@mrrwarehou se.com . Send your PayPal payment to Sales@MRRWAREHOUSE. COM .
                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for your interest in Model Railroad Warehouse. We look forward to hearing from you again. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

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                                                                                                                                                                                      3b. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Red Ball Pay Car 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted by: "Gerold Eckl" corv8@...   corv9 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:21 pm (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      [Attachment(s) from Gerold Eckl included below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Have found some pictures of my Pay Car ... when I bought it I was told 
                                                                                                                                                                                      its a Red Ball, just inspected it - seems it has scribed cardboard 
                                                                                                                                                                                      sides, and very thin cast ends. As it is glued together I can look 
                                                                                                                                                                                      inside right now, but I will have to find a way to open it as the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      glazing came loose. May take better pictures if someone wants to check 
                                                                                                                                                                                      for specific details.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachment(s) from Gerold Eckl 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      3 of 3 Photo(s) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

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                                                                                                                                                                                      3c. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Re: Red Ball Pay Car 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Posted by: "Don Dellmann" don.dellmann@...   don_dellmann 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:29 pm (PDT) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      



                                                                                                                                                                                      The Ambroid kit was part of their "Heritage Line", kit number 24, in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                      1978 Walther's catalog shown as a "new item" as of Oct. '77.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don

                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                      Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original
 Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: "Model RailRoad Warehouse" <mrrwarehouse@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball Pay Car

                                                                                                                                                                                      The advertising art for the Pay Car kit is all that we receieved when 
                                                                                                                                                                                      purchasing Red Ball in 1975. The molds etc had been sold off earlier (by M 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Dale Newton) when he sold the narrow gauge cars. The nee Red Ball kit MAY 
                                                                                                                                                                                      therefore show up as Binkley, Green Caboose or BC Models. I do not recall an 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Ambroid 1/5000 kit of it. IF Ambroid had access to the molds I would bve 
                                                                                                                                                                                      quite surprised--they did not typicallyt use metal ends etc. BUT-- they DID 
                                                                                                                                                                                      follow the practice of having various
 kitmakers supply 1/5000 kits so it 
                                                                                                                                                                                      could be. It was not unusual in the late 1950s for the design of craftsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                      kits to be pirated and rubber molds made [cheaply] to directly copy their 
                                                                                                                                                                                      parts. There were duplicate molds made of at least one other Red Ball kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                      and certain reefer details. L English showed me some in his "collection" and 
                                                                                                                                                                                      BC models and we both had original metal mold sets for one of the period 
                                                                                                                                                                                      cars. BC (Bob Cook) tracked down the portion of the kit
                                                                                                                                                                                      line Newton had sold off in mid 50s before selling to Howell Day. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                      relationship with Binkley has not been very clear to me. M. Dale Newton did 
                                                                                                                                                                                      not seem to recall that when we visited and I do not believe John Anderson 
                                                                                                                                                                                      worked for them. I do know Howell Day was quite "ticked off" (for him) at 
                                                                                                                                                                                      some of the direct copying with rubber molds. Authentic Red Ball parts of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      the 40s-70s will always have a "ridge" along the backside wherer the feed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      sprue
 occured and was cut or sheared. There were exceptions on some wreck 
                                                                                                                                                                                      crane, rotary plow and flatcar side parts with different mold feed design. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      We did also farm out a very few rubber mold copies of some of our own parts 
                                                                                                                                                                                      in the 80s as we ran two shifts on molding and couldn't keep up.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      Model RR Warehouse

                                                                                                                                                                                      Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies 
                                                                                                                                                                                      and Hoppers in HO and O

                                                                                                                                                                                      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11857
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 9/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Chester Streamliner
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I have attached a couple pictures and have uploaded more to the NVRR49 folder. Here are my questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
1.  Anybody have any tips on assembly?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
2.  Is there a prototype for this car?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
3.  When was this kit made?...I am guessing it is my age, 53.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
4.  What trucks would you recomend?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
5.  Coupler mounting?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I assume the deteriorating foam piece is the diaphragm.  I am sure I will come up with more questions, but that is good for a start.  Thanks for all the suggestions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11858
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 9/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Red Ball Leigh Valley Well Hole Flat
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I am going to search for prototype pics on the net this weekend, and again I have lots of quesitons, as the instructions are lacking a lot.  I have uploaded pics of the kit to my folder NVRR49.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
1.  I really don't have any understanding of how the crane beams are held in place.  There are pictures of the brackets.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
2.  How the heck are those trucks supposed to attached to the bolsters, again see pics in my folders?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
3.  Picture P9240052.JPG...why do I have four of these in the kit?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I really appreciate any tips, suggestions, telling me I am nuts, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11859
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Chester Streamliner [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                 While I 
have a number of Chester streamlined passenger car kits I have only ever built 
the "shorties".  I can check tomorrow on a date for these cars but I'm 
willing to bet others will tell you that by then.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           I will offer some ideas as 
to what I have done / used. First trucks. Without knowing the prototype for the 
Chester "Shorties" I used trucks by Herkimer known today as OK Streamliners 
whose latest owner is continuing the family business and  reissuing 
Herkimer type items.. These trucks ( old Herkimer,newer OK Streamliners) have 
Talgo mounted couplers that have the NMRA type coupler but I'm sure easy to 
change to Kadee or others. Again this same company  has new "rubber" 
diaphragms that are peel and stick and can replace the old dried Chester parts. 
Perhaps others have different ideas.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Since Chester items are 
basically wood ( floors and roofs ) with stamped metal sides the construction 
would follow other kits of the same type of materials.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm sitting upstairs with my 
collection down stairs and hope I am remembering right but think Chester items 
have flat metal ends that you screw on to the roof and floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          Hope this helps some. It is 
what I have done and surely not the only way. Can't help at all with the 
Red Ball girder carrying flat car as I don't collect freight cars. Good 
luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  nvrr49@... 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:28 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Chester Streamliner 
  [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      I have attached a couple pictures and have uploaded more to the NVRR49 
  folder. Here are my questions.

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. Anybody have any tips on 
  assembly?
                                                                                                                                                                                      2. Is there a prototype for this car?
                                                                                                                                                                                      3. When was this kit 
  made?...I am guessing it is my age, 53.
                                                                                                                                                                                      4. What trucks would you 
  recomend?
                                                                                                                                                                                      5. Coupler mounting?

                                                                                                                                                                                      I assume the deteriorating foam piece 
  is the diaphragm. I am sure I will come up with more questions, but that is 
  good for a start. Thanks for all the suggestions.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      Kansas 
  City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                      Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11860
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Chester Streamliner [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                          Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Forgot to mention that if 
you go to www.hoseeker.net you can 
find plans for Chester passenger cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:29 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Chester 
  Streamliner [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 While 
  I have a number of Chester streamlined passenger car kits I have only ever 
  built the "shorties".  I can check tomorrow on a date for these cars but 
  I'm willing to bet others will tell you that by then.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           I will offer some ideas 
  as to what I have done / used. First trucks. Without knowing the prototype for 
  the Chester "Shorties" I used trucks by Herkimer known today as OK 
  Streamliners whose latest owner is continuing the family business and  
  reissuing Herkimer type items.. These trucks ( old Herkimer,newer OK 
  Streamliners) have Talgo mounted couplers that have the NMRA type coupler 
  but I'm sure easy to change to Kadee or others. Again this same company  
  has new "rubber" diaphragms that are peel and stick and can replace the old 
  dried Chester parts. Perhaps others have different ideas.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          Since Chester items are 
  basically wood ( floors and roofs ) with stamped metal sides the construction 
  would follow other kits of the same type of materials.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm sitting upstairs with my 
  collection down stairs and hope I am remembering right but think Chester items 
  have flat metal ends that you screw on to the roof and floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          Hope this helps some. It is 
  what I have done and surely not the only way. Can't help at all with the 
  Red Ball girder carrying flat car as I don't collect freight cars. Good 
  luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
    nvrr49@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 
    10:28 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Chester 
    Streamliner [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      I have attached a couple pictures and have uploaded more to the NVRR49 
    folder. Here are my questions.

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. Anybody have any tips on 
    assembly?
                                                                                                                                                                                      2. Is there a prototype for this car?
                                                                                                                                                                                      3. When was this kit 
    made?...I am guessing it is my age, 53.
                                                                                                                                                                                      4. What trucks would you 
    recomend?
                                                                                                                                                                                      5. Coupler mounting?

                                                                                                                                                                                      I assume the deteriorating foam 
    piece is the diaphragm. I am sure I will come up with more questions, but 
    that is good for a start. Thanks for all the suggestions.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent 
    Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                      Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11861
						From: dickybee2000
						Date: 9/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Ken Kidder baggage cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      I checked both messages and files and don't see a reference to these cars. I picked up a 60 foot Harriman baggage car imported by Ken Kidder. The car consists of a brass body with a wood floor. No underbody details are provided. My guess would be it's an early sixties import. I did read elsewhere that the cars are a close reproduction of the prototype, crude by today's standards, and perhaps the roof isn't quite as high as it should be. On the other hand, I intend to restore/detail it and it won't run with any other Harriman cars plus the price was right.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Can anyone tell me if these cars are limited to UP and SP prototype or did the IC and perhaps Rock Island have any. The top corners of the baggage door openings are slightly rounded which appears to be accurate for UP and SP. If it isn't right for Rock Island or IC then I'll paint it SP and use it on a Rock Island train.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Dick Berry
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Warsaw, Indiana
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11862
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 9/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Chester Streamliner [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      It's nice that you found one of the old overhead crane models. They  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
seem to be very rare.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Would you like some images and line drawings [catalog and not scale]  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of completed cranes to detail that bare set of castings into a ready  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to mount industrial tool ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I also have some usable shots of larger mining shovel sub-assemblies  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
that show how such a large item as the overhead crane assembly would  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
be secured to the flatcar. The car needs several tie-down rods and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
deck-mounted chocks and braces [we use creatively welded assemblies  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of heavy angle-irons as 'shoes' and braces between the car deck and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the load]. We once had a shovel boom twist on a RR car and take out  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
several container cars as it passed another train...........
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The overhead bridge would look more ready to install with some sort  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
of walkway and end motors with brakes and control cabinets. Adding  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
some of that would make the bare castings come to life.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Sep 24, 2009, at 9:28 PM, nvrr49@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have attached a couple pictures and have uploaded more to the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> NVRR49 folder. Here are my questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 1.  Anybody have any tips on assembly?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 2.  Is there a prototype for this car?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 3.  When was this kit made?...I am guessing it is my age, 53.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 4.  What trucks would you recomend?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 5.  Coupler mounting?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I assume the deteriorating foam piece is the diaphragm.  I am sure  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I will come up with more questions, but that is good for a start.   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks for all the suggestions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11863
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 9/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Chester Streamliner [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks Mike, yeah, any pictures would be great.  So, Mike, how many groups are you in...I see your post on at least four group that I am in.?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> It's nice that you found one of the old overhead crane models. They  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> seem to be very rare.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Would you like some images and line drawings [catalog and not scale]  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of completed cranes to detail that bare set of castings into a ready  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to mount industrial tool ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I also have some usable shots of larger mining shovel sub-assemblies  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> that show how such a large item as the overhead crane assembly would  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> be secured to the flatcar. The car needs several tie-down rods and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> deck-mounted chocks and braces [we use creatively welded assemblies  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of heavy angle-irons as 'shoes' and braces between the car deck and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the load]. We once had a shovel boom twist on a RR car and take out  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> several container cars as it passed another train...........
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The overhead bridge would look more ready to install with some sort  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> of walkway and end motors with brakes and control cabinets. Adding  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> some of that would make the bare castings come to life.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11864
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 9/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Chester Streamliner
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Great!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I'll do some scanning and photo sorting this evening. We just had a  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
training program for the overheads that gifted us with a thick book  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
that is loaded with model-able detailed line drawings as seen from  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
above the cranes, and I have at least one P&H installation book for  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
them.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As to how many groups......... Well, it's too many of them. I'm not  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sure how many I'm active in. I sure do get a good amount of reading  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
from the one's I'm signed up with, and they frequently lead me to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
very interesting hobby-related sites I wouldn't otherwise know about.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I'd rather not admit just what the total number of groups is........
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
;^)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       On Sep 25, 2009, at 6:23 AM, nvrr49 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks Mike, yeah, any pictures would be great.  So, Mike, how many  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> groups are you in...I see your post on at least four group that I  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> am in.?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> It's nice that you found one of the old overhead crane models. They
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> seem to be very rare.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Would you like some images and line drawings [catalog and not scale]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> of completed cranes to detail that bare set of castings into a ready
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> to mount industrial tool ????
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I also have some usable shots of larger mining shovel sub-assemblies
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> that show how such a large item as the overhead crane assembly would
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> be secured to the flatcar. The car needs several tie-down rods and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> deck-mounted chocks and braces [we use creatively welded assemblies
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> of heavy angle-irons as 'shoes' and braces between the car deck and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> the load]. We once had a shovel boom twist on a RR car and take out
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> several container cars as it passed another train...........
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> The overhead bridge would look more ready to install with some sort
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> of walkway and end motors with brakes and control cabinets. Adding
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> some of that would make the bare castings come to life. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11865
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat, kit# 33, later #4321
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
There is a very detailed prototype drawing of the 110 ton Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat in the 1925 Car Builder's Cyclopedia, Page 124, which was reprinted in the 1977 Train Shed Cyclopedia, No. 64. (The same page also has a detailed drawing of the prototype for the Red Ball 100 ton P&LE flat car, kit #1, later #4324).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
An excellent prototype photo of the Lehigh Valley car appears in the Morning Sun color guide to CNJ/LV equipment by Craig Bossler, who actually noted the excellent fidelity of the Red Ball model in his caption.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I do not have a working scanner, so perhaps someone else might be able to scan them for your research, otherwise, let me know and I can make and mail copies.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Yours looks to be an early version of the kit, with a nice later Cape Line edition of the trucks with NWSL wheelsets.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The crane beams fit neatly in the slots on the crane beam end castings. The flat side of the crane end beam castings faces outward, towards the car ends.  The four brass turnings are the crane wheels, and they are attached to the flat side of each end by wood screws, two on each end. (I substituted hex head machine screws after tapping for a better appearance.)  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
As to the trucks, seems like your photos show some sort of (early) pin arrangement? I think mine went together the regular way, screw through truck and body bolster into floor, but will check tonight.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@..." <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I am going to search for prototype pics on the net this weekend, and again I have lots of quesitons, as the instructions are lacking a lot.  I have uploaded pics of the kit to my folder NVRR49.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 1.  I really don't have any understanding of how the crane beams are held in place.  There are pictures of the brackets.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 2.  How the heck are those trucks supposed to attached to the bolsters, again see pics in my folders?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 3.  Picture P9240052.JPG...why do I have four of these in the kit?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I really appreciate any tips, suggestions, telling me I am nuts, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11866
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ken Kidder baggage cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Dick, B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Perhaps the Model Railroader Trade Topics reviews of these cars may provide some information on other prototypes.  It seems that each car type was imported at a seperate time and warranted a seperate review:  60' Harriman coach, 10/59, p.10; 60' Harriman baggage and 40' RPO, 05/60, p.14; 65' SP Harriman Combine, 03/61, p.13; 60' SP Harriman baggage mail 12/61 p.24; 60' and 70' Harriman opservation cars, 12/64, p.7.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I listed all of the reviews as possibly one or more might have the information you are looking for. Hope this helps, if you have access to the magazines.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Another way of checking on possible Harriman prototypes would be to google the IC and Rock Island historical - technical modeling groups and ask their passenger car experts.  Over the years, I've found most groups willing to help non-members with their expertise.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "dickybee2000" <rberry673@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I checked both messages and files and don't see a reference to these cars. I picked up a 60 foot Harriman baggage car imported by Ken Kidder. The car consists of a brass body with a wood floor. No underbody details are provided. My guess would be it's an early sixties import. I did read elsewhere that the cars are a close reproduction of the prototype, crude by today's standards, and perhaps the roof isn't quite as high as it should be. On the other hand, I intend to restore/detail it and it won't run with any other Harriman cars plus the price was right.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Can anyone tell me if these cars are limited to UP and SP prototype or did the IC and perhaps Rock Island have any. The top corners of the baggage door openings are slightly rounded which appears to be accurate for UP and SP. If it isn't right for Rock Island or IC then I'll paint it SP and use it on a Rock Island train.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dick Berry
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Warsaw, Indiana
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11867
						From: Model RailRoad Warehouse
						Date: 9/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Flat
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The Lehigh Valley semi well flat car had a pressed fibre deck with rivit detail to simulate steel deck. One had to cut out the hole for the well. Early kits used a body bolster with pin that prototypically set through the pivot on trucks with no attachment. Cyclopedia photos noted by others show a wood deck.  Last run by us added a new  "K" shaped casting to form both ends of the well.  Earlier versions used wood blocks then we tried a vac formed plastic well. Cast sides do not have the "rib." This car was rerun and ready for re release by us so it will likely be an early release from LaBelle as they get Red Ball rolling again.  The Allied overhead crane was offered as a Hometown detailing kit and in the Hometown Orton Crane Works kit by us.  LaBelle will have existing inventory for this item as well.     Howell Day marketed most of the heavy duty flats with loads. We did not in the interest of maintaining reasonable car kit prices.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
All the heavy duty flatcars by Red Ball had prototypes.  On the RR fewer than a half dozen (often one or two) were all they rostered., All were unique to ONE RR except the 36 foot Commonwealth depressed center flat (later offered by Eastern Car and by Walthers in styrene--both no longer available)that had several owners through CR.  I expect reruns of these cars from LaBelle as noted above--most were poised for reissue.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out today !
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11868
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat, kit# 33, later #4321
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Merle, Kent, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Merle, thanks for confirming the pin arrangement shown in Kent's photo for mounting the trucks; I thought that was what I saw, but never knew it was part of an early Red Ball run.  That would insure a center pivot for the Lamount three axle trucks, whereas most models have off center mounting holes on three axle trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent, if for some reason you do not want to use the pin mount bolsters, I'll trade you any other Red Ball bolsters you want and pay postage both ways as I would refit them to my older original version!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The Lehigh Valley semi well flat car had a pressed fibre deck with rivit detail to simulate steel deck. One had to cut out the hole for the well. Early kits used a body bolster with pin that prototypically set through the pivot on trucks with no attachment. Cyclopedia photos noted by others show a wood deck.  Last run by us added a new  "K" shaped casting to form both ends of the well.  Earlier versions used wood blocks then we tried a vac formed plastic well. Cast sides do not have the "rib." This car was rerun and ready for re release by us so it will likely be an early release from LaBelle as they get Red Ball rolling again.  The Allied overhead crane was offered as a Hometown detailing kit and in the Hometown Orton Crane Works kit by us.  LaBelle will have existing inventory for this item as well.     Howell Day marketed most of the heavy duty flats with loads. We did not in the interest of maintaining reasonable car kit prices.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> All the heavy duty flatcars by Red Ball had prototypes.  On the RR fewer than a half dozen (often one or two) were all they rostered., All were unique to ONE RR except the 36 foot Commonwealth depressed center flat (later offered by Eastern Car and by Walthers in styrene--both no longer available)that had several owners through CR.  I expect reruns of these cars from LaBelle as noted above--most were poised for reissue.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out today !
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11869
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 9/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ken Kidder baggage cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


  

 
Hi Dick and Jay, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Have ads for Ken Kidder Harriman cars on file from 1959 and 1966, seems
in 1959 only the coach was available, later the other bodystyles were
added.  Just compared my KK baggage with an Coach Yard Harriman RPO -
roof isnt much different. Of course the punched rivets and general
rivet detail is much rougher than with later brass models which have
etched detail but I consider it well acceptable. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Those cars were  - although this point wasnt emphasiced by Importers - 
a "semi-kit"  and the modeler was supposed to add underbody detail ,
trucks, couplers  according to prototype info, or his own taste. One
common error was to add a huge center sill to Harriman cars...most of
them had only two small center beams, as the whole carbody carried the
stresses. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Some of the Ken Kidder Harriman cars were labeled  "Illinois Central",
have an original box somewhere but not sure which bodystyle it belonged
too. There was also a full lenght IC Harriman Observation sold as IC
car.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 Re prototype roads ... IC definitely had Harriman cars, even  roads
like the WP which werent affiliated with Harriman lines used this
style. Found that RI had a number of Harriman RPOs and at least one
class of 60ft Harriman Baggage cars which matches the KK car , except
for the Garland roof ventilators. If you wish I may scan a picture of
one of those cars and send it to you off list. Also have somwhere an
drawing showing arrangement of underbody detail. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                       

  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Dick, B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Perhaps the Model Railroader Trade Topics reviews of these cars may
provide some information on other prototypes. It seems that each car
type was imported at a seperate time and warranted a seperate review:
60' Harriman coach, 10/59, p.10; 60' Harriman baggage and 40' RPO,
05/60, p.14; 65' SP Harriman Combine, 03/61, p.13; 60' SP Harriman
baggage mail 12/61 p.24; 60' and 70' Harriman opservation cars, 12/64,
p.7.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
I listed all of the reviews as possibly one or more might have the
information you are looking for. Hope this helps, if you have access to
the magazines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Another way of checking on possible Harriman prototypes would be to
google the IC and Rock Island historical - technical modeling groups
and ask their passenger car experts. Over the years, I've found most
groups willing to help non-members with their expertise.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"dickybee2000" <rberry673@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I checked both messages and files and don't see a reference to
these cars. I picked up a 60 foot Harriman baggage car imported by Ken
Kidder. The car consists of a brass body with a wood floor. No
underbody details are provided. My guess would be it's an early sixties
import. I did read elsewhere that the cars are a close reproduction of
the prototype, crude by today's standards, and perhaps the roof isn't
quite as high as it should be. On the other hand, I intend to
restore/detail it and it won't run with any other Harriman cars plus
the price was right.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Can anyone tell me if these cars are limited to UP and SP
prototype or did the IC and perhaps Rock Island have any. The top
corners of the baggage door openings are slightly rounded which appears
to be accurate for UP and SP. If it isn't right for Rock Island or IC
then I'll paint it SP and use it on a Rock Island train.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dick Berry
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Warsaw, Indiana
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11870
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 9/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ken Kidder baggage cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      For what it is worth, the Monon had baggage cars with roof designs similar to Harriman coaches, and from some quick Google image searching, the cars are fairly similar in design.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Fri, 9/25/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ken Kidder baggage cars
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Friday, September 25, 2009, 7:21 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Dick, B.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Perhaps the Model Railroader Trade Topics reviews of these cars may provide some information on other prototypes.  It seems that each car type was imported at a seperate time and warranted a seperate review:  60' Harriman coach, 10/59, p.10; 60' Harriman baggage and 40' RPO, 05/60, p.14; 65' SP Harriman Combine, 03/61, p.13; 60' SP Harriman baggage mail 12/61 p.24; 60' and 70' Harriman opservation cars, 12/64, p.7.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I listed all of the reviews as possibly one or more might have the information you are looking for. Hope this helps, if you have access to the magazines.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Another way of checking on possible Harriman prototypes would be to google the IC and Rock Island historical - technical modeling groups and ask their passenger car experts.  Over the years, I've found most groups willing to help non-members with their expertise.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "dickybee2000" <rberry673@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I checked both messages and files and don't see a reference to these cars. I picked up a 60 foot Harriman baggage car imported by Ken Kidder. The car consists of a brass body with a wood floor. No underbody details are provided. My guess would be it's an early sixties import. I did read elsewhere that the cars are a close reproduction of the prototype, crude by today's standards, and perhaps the roof isn't quite as high as it should be. On the other hand, I intend to restore/detail it and it won't run with any other Harriman cars plus the price was right.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Can anyone tell me if these cars are limited to UP and SP prototype or did the IC and perhaps Rock Island have any. The top corners of the baggage door openings are slightly rounded which appears to be accurate for UP and SP. If it isn't right for Rock Island or IC then I'll paint it SP and use it on a Rock Island train.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Dick Berry
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Warsaw, Indiana
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11871
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Ken Kidder baggage cars [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      There's a couple of Harriman cars locally--if 
someone wants the measurements of the sills I can do it--
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I have several similar vintage SP streamline 
(Daylight) cars by M.B. Austin that are available--
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 10:39 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Ken Kidder 
  baggage cars [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Dick and Jay, 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Have ads 
  for Ken Kidder Harriman cars on file from 1959 and 1966, seems in 1959 only 
  the coach was available, later the other bodystyles were added.  Just 
  compared my KK baggage with an Coach Yard Harriman RPO - roof isnt much 
  different. Of course the punched rivets and general rivet detail is much 
  rougher than with later brass models which have etched detail but I consider 
  it well acceptable. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Those cars were  - although this point wasnt 
  emphasiced by Importers -  a "semi-kit"  and the modeler was 
  supposed to add underbody detail , trucks, couplers  according to 
  prototype info, or his own taste. One common error was to add a huge center 
  sill to Harriman cars...most of them had only two small center beams, as the 
  whole carbody carried the stresses. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Some of the Ken Kidder Harriman cars 
  were labeled  "Illinois Central", have an original box somewhere but not 
  sure which bodystyle it belonged too. There was also a full lenght IC Harriman 
  Observation sold as IC car.
                                                                                                                                                                                       Re prototype roads ... IC definitely had 
  Harriman cars, even  roads like the WP which werent affiliated with 
  Harriman lines used this style. Found that RI had a number of Harriman RPOs 
  and at least one class of 60ft Harriman Baggage cars which matches the KK car 
  , except for the Garland roof ventilators. If you wish I may scan a picture of 
  one of those cars and send it to you off list. Also have somwhere an drawing 
  showing arrangement of underbody detail. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Dick, B.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Perhaps the Model Railroader Trade Topics reviews of 
    these cars may provide some information on other prototypes. It seems that 
    each car type was imported at a seperate time and warranted a seperate 
    review: 60' Harriman coach, 10/59, p.10; 60' Harriman baggage and 40' RPO, 
    05/60, p.14; 65' SP Harriman Combine, 03/61, p.13; 60' SP Harriman baggage 
    mail 12/61 p.24; 60' and 70' Harriman opservation cars, 12/64, p.7.

                                                                                                                                                                                      I 
    listed all of the reviews as possibly one or more might have the information 
    you are looking for. Hope this helps, if you have access to the magazines. 
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      Another way of checking on possible Harriman prototypes would be to 
    google the IC and Rock Island historical - technical modeling groups and ask 
    their passenger car experts. Over the years, I've found most groups willing 
    to help non-members with their expertise.

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "dickybee2000" 
    <rberry673@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I checked both messages 
    and files and don't see a reference to these cars. I picked up a 60 foot 
    Harriman baggage car imported by Ken Kidder. The car consists of a brass 
    body with a wood floor. No underbody details are provided. My guess would be 
    it's an early sixties import. I did read elsewhere that the cars are a close 
    reproduction of the prototype, crude by today's standards, and perhaps the 
    roof isn't quite as high as it should be. On the other hand, I intend to 
    restore/detail it and it won't run with any other Harriman cars plus the 
    price was right.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Can anyone tell me if these cars are 
    limited to UP and SP prototype or did the IC and perhaps Rock Island have 
    any. The top corners of the baggage door openings are slightly rounded which 
    appears to be accurate for UP and SP. If it isn't right for Rock Island or 
    IC then I'll paint it SP and use it on a Rock Island train.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
    Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Dick Berry
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Warsaw, Indiana
                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11872
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 9/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat, kit# 33, later #4321
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W, at this point, I am planning on using the pins, but we will see how it goes.  Certainly appreciate the feedback.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Merle, Kent, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Merle, thanks for confirming the pin arrangement shown in Kent's photo for mounting the trucks; I thought that was what I saw, but never knew it was part of an early Red Ball run.  That would insure a center pivot for the Lamount three axle trucks, whereas most models have off center mounting holes on three axle trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent, if for some reason you do not want to use the pin mount bolsters, I'll trade you any other Red Ball bolsters you want and pay postage both ways as I would refit them to my older original version!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > The Lehigh Valley semi well flat car had a pressed fibre deck with rivit detail to simulate steel deck. One had to cut out the hole for the well. Early kits used a body bolster with pin that prototypically set through the pivot on trucks with no attachment. Cyclopedia photos noted by others show a wood deck.  Last run by us added a new  "K" shaped casting to form both ends of the well.  Earlier versions used wood blocks then we tried a vac formed plastic well. Cast sides do not have the "rib." This car was rerun and ready for re release by us so it will likely be an early release from LaBelle as they get Red Ball rolling again.  The Allied overhead crane was offered as a Hometown detailing kit and in the Hometown Orton Crane Works kit by us.  LaBelle will have existing inventory for this item as well.     Howell Day marketed most of the heavy duty flats with loads. We did not in the interest of maintaining reasonable car kit prices.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > All the heavy duty flatcars by Red Ball had prototypes.  On the RR fewer than a half dozen (often one or two) were all they rostered., All were unique to ONE RR except the 36 foot Commonwealth depressed center flat (later offered by Eastern Car and by Walthers in styrene--both no longer available)that had several owners through CR.  I expect reruns of these cars from LaBelle as noted above--most were poised for reissue.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out today !
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11873
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat, kit# 33, later #4321
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent, I imagined that you would use them after reading Merle's explaination, but figured I'd ask anyway!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W, at this point, I am planning on using the pins, but we will see how it goes.  Certainly appreciate the feedback.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi Merle, Kent, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Merle, thanks for confirming the pin arrangement shown in Kent's photo for mounting the trucks; I thought that was what I saw, but never knew it was part of an early Red Ball run.  That would insure a center pivot for the Lamount three axle trucks, whereas most models have off center mounting holes on three axle trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kent, if for some reason you do not want to use the pin mount bolsters, I'll trade you any other Red Ball bolsters you want and pay postage both ways as I would refit them to my older original version!
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > The Lehigh Valley semi well flat car had a pressed fibre deck with rivit detail to simulate steel deck. One had to cut out the hole for the well. Early kits used a body bolster with pin that prototypically set through the pivot on trucks with no attachment. Cyclopedia photos noted by others show a wood deck.  Last run by us added a new  "K" shaped casting to form both ends of the well.  Earlier versions used wood blocks then we tried a vac formed plastic well. Cast sides do not have the "rib." This car was rerun and ready for re release by us so it will likely be an early release from LaBelle as they get Red Ball rolling again.  The Allied overhead crane was offered as a Hometown detailing kit and in the Hometown Orton Crane Works kit by us.  LaBelle will have existing inventory for this item as well.     Howell Day marketed most of the heavy duty flats with loads. We did not in the interest of maintaining reasonable car kit prices.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > All the heavy duty flatcars by Red Ball had prototypes.  On the RR fewer than a half dozen (often one or two) were all they rostered., All were unique to ONE RR except the 36 foot Commonwealth depressed center flat (later offered by Eastern Car and by Walthers in styrene--both no longer available)that had several owners through CR.  I expect reruns of these cars from LaBelle as noted above--most were poised for reissue.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out today !
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11874
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Red Ball Kits w/ Decorated Sides; Early 1950's Elkhart, IN. Operatio
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Here is a list of six car numbers for those few early 1950's Red Ball models with decorated cast white metal (linotype metal) sides that were referred to in recent discussions, followed by information from my Red Ball research project relating to Red Ball's early 1950's Elkart, Indiana venture and closes with speculation on the period that the decorated sides were available. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Steel Flat Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kit # 1, PL&E 8885 40' 100 ton flat car, white lettering on black sides
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kit # 29, PRR 435475 Semi-well flat car, white lettering on PRR "freight car color" sides
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kit # 70, Erie 7201 36' 70 ton heavy duty flat car, white lettering on black sides
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kit # 81, C&NW 48005 36' depressed center flat car, white lettering on boxcar red sides
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Steel Express Reefers:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kit #9, PRR Steel Express Reefer, (PRR ), dulux gold on tuscan sides
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      (later offered with PRR decals as listed in the group's files section)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kit # 91, GARX Steel Express Reefer, lettering on green sides
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      (later offered with GARX and other road's decals as listed in the files section)
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      It appears that first and only mention of the decorated sides was in Red Ball catalog # 7, (circa 1952), pages unnumbered. They are on HOSeeker's Catalog #7 image page #'s 4,5,6,10 & 11.  Red Ball's Catalog # 7 was the only catalog that was issued with the Elkhart, Indiana address (although some of the previous year's Medford Catalog #6 were overprinted with the Indiana address and there was other promotional paperwork from Indiana operations as well).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      With a complex line of over 150 kits and hundreds of parts, M. Dale Newton was up against the familiar manufacturer's bugaboo of trying to get his product to the public. While direct sales produced more revenue, there were also greater operational headaches and costs, while sales though distributors often choked sales of slower moving products in an extesive line as most wanted to limit themselves to carrying the only the best selling items. Having tried various arrangements with direct mail sales including the "Car of the Month Club" to individuals and dealing with dealers and some distributors, and finding all burdensome, Newton then tried an arrangement with a sole "world agent," a distributor who would package the kits as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Newton's Volume 7, No. 3 edition of Red Ball News, labeled an "Extra," reported that effective September 1, 1951, all orders should be sent to the separate new Indiana corporation that was established, "Red Ball Dist. Inc." with Charles Wiley as President and "Mr. Alexander" co-founder.  Newton wrote that the new outfit would be responsible for "Packaging, selling and shipping all Red Ball products." Although the Elkhart Red Ball catalog represents on its cover that "Red Ball HO Freight Cars" were "Manufactured by Red Ball, 1310 W. Bristol St., Elkhart, Indiana," Newton's own words state that with the stock room and packaging operation moved east, the space in Medford, Oregon would  permit  "increased production facilities which will permit greatly increased volume and variety of Red Ball products."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'd be willing to wager that the decoration of the above kit sides took place at the Elkhart, Ind. facility, as an extended part of their packaging and marketing agreement, as the next Red Ball catalogs #8 (circa 1953) and #9 (circa 1954), both again from Medford, make no mention of the decorated sides, but do illustrate most of them in actual photographs (available at HoSeeker) and I would theorize the remainders of the decorated sides were supplied until they ran out.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Ironically, the Elkhart distributor also limited the number of kits that were offered: Only about 28 of the colorful wood sheathed reefers that Red Ball was famous for and 33 of the other "prototype specific" freight cars and cabooses were offered, plus the parts and HO trucks. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      When the deal with the Elkhart distributor was found to be unsatisfactory or fell though, all Red Ball operations were transferred back to Medford. (I am researching the  date that the Indiana operation ceased, and will report at a later time.) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      As an interesting aside, I have in my collection a legnthy hand typed invoice from Elkhart addrssed and mailed (at 3 cents) to a modeler requesting he remit 9 cents he owed on his ten item order.  I suspect they lost more in Goodwill (the business principle, not the charity) as he did not return it with 9 cents payment.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The Red Ball name is a corporate trademark and is the property of its successors and assigns, as is are limited quotes from any Red Ball catalogs or manufacturers information sheets; their use herein for historic and scholarship purposes is intended as provided for by law. Any descriptive and interpretative language concerning the presentation of the subject matter is the author's own and subject to copyright provisions. (C) 2009 W. Jay Wanczyk, all rights reserved
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11875
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 9/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Chester Streamliner
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Guess what I found in my junk box, two more Chester cars.  Not in very good shape, but fixable.  One is missing a side door.  Anyone have any ideas on a replacement?  Previous questions below still stand for the most part.  Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have attached a couple pictures and have uploaded more to the NVRR49 folder. Here are my questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 1.  Anybody have any tips on assembly?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 2.  Is there a prototype for this car?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 3.  When was this kit made?...I am guessing it is my age, 53.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 4.  What trucks would you recomend?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 5.  Coupler mounting?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I assume the deteriorating foam piece is the diaphragm.  I am sure I will come up with more questions, but that is good for a start.  Thanks for all the suggestions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      __________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Do You Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://mail.yahoo.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11876
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Chester Streamliner [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               Finding 
missing parts for Chester passenger cars might be hard. You might find some on 
Ebay. I think you would be best ( as far as the missing door ) trying to find a 
suitable metal  to match and create your own.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         Hopefully others will 
respond with answers to your questions . As to construction, trucks 
and diaphragms I have already mentioned what I used or what I did. Not to 
far back there was a thread, with pictures, about Chester on this site. Perhaps 
those discussions would be helpful. If you want pictures of my finished "Shorty" 
cars I will send.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  nvrr49@... 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 1:52 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Chester 
  Streamliner [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Guess what I found in my junk box, two more Chester cars. Not in very good 
  shape, but fixable. One is missing a side door. Anyone have any ideas on a 
  replacement? Previous questions below still stand for the most part. 
  Thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                      Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/

                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  I have attached a couple pictures and have uploaded more to the NVRR49 folder. 
  Here are my questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 1. Anybody have any tips on 
  assembly?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 2. Is there a prototype for this car?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 3. When was 
  this kit made?...I am guessing it is my age, 53.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 4. What trucks would 
  you recomend?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 5. Coupler mounting?
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > I assume the 
  deteriorating foam piece is the diaphragm. I am sure I will come up with more 
  questions, but that is good for a start. Thanks for all the 
  suggestions.
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/

                                                                                                                                                                                      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                                                                                                                                                                                      Do 
  You Yahoo!?
                                                                                                                                                                                      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      http://mail. yahoo.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11877
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Chester Passenger Car with correction
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
I decided to send pictures after all and glad I went to take them. I mentioned 
the other night when I sent info I was to lazy to go down the basement to check 
information out. Old age you know. I took things off the top of my head and this 
is how things get wrong when you try to recall without looking and you have way 
to many items .
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          The pictures show two completed 
Chester passenger "Shorty" cars pus some mint kits. I originally told you I had 
Herkimer / OK Streamliner talgo mounted trucks on the completed items. I was way 
off. I actually used Blue Line passenger trucks and added body mounted couplers 
with pockets by Life Like. However the diaphragms are the Herkimer now OK 
Streamliner peel and stick on brand.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           Sorry for any 
confusion and  glad I took the pictures so I could correct the info I 
previously stated.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11878
						From: corlissbs
						Date: 9/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Athearn Ruber Bands
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Has anyone found a source for Athearn rubber bands?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11879
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 9/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Ruber Bands
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      There is a CVS Pharmacy about a block from my home, and they have a pack of 1000 women's hair bands, small ones, in three sizes, for a dollar.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The medium/large ones I use on Athearn F/GP units, and the small of small I use on Hustlers, and will also work on Revell and Model Engineering Works switchers too.

                                                                                                                                                                                      So far I have had belt drive units running for almost a year with no breaks or weardown. I figure I can get another couple years at least, but for the price, I can't complain.

                                                                                                                                                                                      -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sat, 9/26/09, corlissbs <corlissbs@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                      From: corlissbs <corlissbs@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn Ruber Bands
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 3:08
 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Has anyone found a source for Athearn rubber bands?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                        


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11880
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 9/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat, kit# 33, later #4321
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                      Do the truck bolsters just glue to the back side of the pressed cardboard?  The old instructions have a little to be desired, but that would certainly keep the car to a low profile. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
___________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The Lehigh Valley semi well flat car had a pressed fibre deck with rivit detail
                                                                                                                                                                                      
to simulate steel deck. One had to cut out the hole for the well. Early kits
                                                                                                                                                                                      
used a body bolster with pin that prototypically set through the pivot on trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
with no attachment. Cyclopedia photos noted by others show a wood deck.  Last
                                                                                                                                                                                      
run by us added a new  "K" shaped casting to form both ends of the well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Earlier versions used wood blocks then we tried a vac formed plastic well. Cast
                                                                                                                                                                                      
sides do not have the "rib." This car was rerun and ready for re release by us
                                                                                                                                                                                      
so it will likely be an early release from LaBelle as they get Red Ball rolling
                                                                                                                                                                                      
again.  The Allied overhead crane was offered as a Hometown detailing kit and in
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the Hometown Orton Crane Works kit by us.  LaBelle will have existing inventory
                                                                                                                                                                                      
for this item as well.     Howell Day marketed most of the heavy duty flats with
                                                                                                                                                                                      
loads. We did not in the interest of maintaining reasonable car kit prices.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
All the heavy duty flatcars by Red Ball had prototypes.  On the RR fewer than a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
half dozen (often one or two) were all they rostered., All were unique to ONE RR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
except the 36 foot Commonwealth depressed center flat (later offered by Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Car and by Walthers in styrene--both no longer available)that had several owners
                                                                                                                                                                                      
through CR.  I expect reruns of these cars from LaBelle as noted above--most
                                                                                                                                                                                      
were poised for reissue.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out
                                                                                                                                                                                      
today !
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11881
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 9/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Ruber Bands
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      I found out that Athearn still has them in stock.  Part number 
90101.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11882
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat, kit# 33, later #4321
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Short answer, and with no instructtions, I believe that the original intent was that the truck bosters would be cemented directly to the card floor.  Looking at the prototype drawing, the floor to rail height seems to be 36 inches;(2'2-1/2" chord +9-7/16" to railhead); so that is a good guide to what can be done underneath for added rigity.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have one partially assembled kit and see that it had the orignal pin mounted bolsers, but the prior owner peened the pins down to hold the trucks permanently onto the bolster.  My car body floor has bowed a bit as the bolsters were never mounted.  I plan to cut and glue a rigid thin sheet aluminum subfloor at each end first, to work out the bow, then epoxy the bolsters to that.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I also I pulled out a neatly assembled version I bought years ago at a show, but see that the modeler inserted a wood subfloor at each end and added Varney six wheel Commonwealth trucks..(!)...That will have to be rebuilt now that I know more about it and have the extra proper Lamount trucks now. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@..." <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Do the truck bolsters just glue to the back side of the pressed cardboard?  The old instructions have a little to be desired, but that would certainly keep the car to a low profile. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ___________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The Lehigh Valley semi well flat car had a pressed fibre deck with rivit detail
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> to simulate steel deck. One had to cut out the hole for the well. Early kits
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> used a body bolster with pin that prototypically set through the pivot on trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> with no attachment. Cyclopedia photos noted by others show a wood deck.  Last
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> run by us added a new  "K" shaped casting to form both ends of the well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Earlier versions used wood blocks then we tried a vac formed plastic well. Cast
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> sides do not have the "rib." This car was rerun and ready for re release by us
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> so it will likely be an early release from LaBelle as they get Red Ball rolling
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> again.  The Allied overhead crane was offered as a Hometown detailing kit and in
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the Hometown Orton Crane Works kit by us.  LaBelle will have existing inventory
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> for this item as well.     Howell Day marketed most of the heavy duty flats with
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> loads. We did not in the interest of maintaining reasonable car kit prices.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> All the heavy duty flatcars by Red Ball had prototypes.  On the RR fewer than a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> half dozen (often one or two) were all they rostered., All were unique to ONE RR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> except the 36 foot Commonwealth depressed center flat (later offered by Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Car and by Walthers in styrene--both no longer available)that had several owners
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> through CR.  I expect reruns of these cars from LaBelle as noted above--most
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> were poised for reissue.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> today !
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11883
						From: Don Grant
						Date: 9/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Athearn Ruber Bands
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Athearn 90101.  In stock at Horizon.

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- On Sat, 9/26/09, corlissbs <corlissbs@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From: corlissbs <corlissbs@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn Ruber Bands
                                                                                                                                                                                      To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 1:08 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Has anyone found a source for Athearn rubber bands?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                      Franklin, WI



                                                                                                                                                                                      ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11884
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Prototype Photo Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat, kit# 33, 
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
An additional photo taken from slightly above clearly showing the metal decked prototype appeared in the Car Builders Cyclopedia of 1919, page 328, figure 158 which was reprinted in 1975 in the Train Shed Cyclopedia No. 35. Road Number in the builder's photo is 9952. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Short answer, and with no instructtions, I believe that the original intent was that the truck bosters would be cemented directly to the card floor.  Looking at the prototype drawing, the floor to rail height seems to be 36 inches;(2'2-1/2" chord +9-7/16" to railhead); so that is a good guide to what can be done underneath for added rigity.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have one partially assembled kit and see that it had the orignal pin mounted bolsers, but the prior owner peened the pins down to hold the trucks permanently onto the bolster.  My car body floor has bowed a bit as the bolsters were never mounted.  I plan to cut and glue a rigid thin sheet aluminum subfloor at each end first, to work out the bow, then epoxy the bolsters to that.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I also I pulled out a neatly assembled version I bought years ago at a show, but see that the modeler inserted a wood subfloor at each end and added Varney six wheel Commonwealth trucks..(!)...That will have to be rebuilt now that I know more about it and have the extra proper Lamount trucks now. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@" <nvrr49@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Do the truck bolsters just glue to the back side of the pressed cardboard?  The old instructions have a little to be desired, but that would certainly keep the car to a low profile. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ___________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > The Lehigh Valley semi well flat car had a pressed fibre deck with rivit detail
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > to simulate steel deck. One had to cut out the hole for the well. Early kits
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > used a body bolster with pin that prototypically set through the pivot on trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > with no attachment. Cyclopedia photos noted by others show a wood deck.  Last
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > run by us added a new  "K" shaped casting to form both ends of the well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Earlier versions used wood blocks then we tried a vac formed plastic well. Cast
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > sides do not have the "rib." This car was rerun and ready for re release by us
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > so it will likely be an early release from LaBelle as they get Red Ball rolling
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > again.  The Allied overhead crane was offered as a Hometown detailing kit and in
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > the Hometown Orton Crane Works kit by us.  LaBelle will have existing inventory
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > for this item as well.     Howell Day marketed most of the heavy duty flats with
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > loads. We did not in the interest of maintaining reasonable car kit prices.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > All the heavy duty flatcars by Red Ball had prototypes.  On the RR fewer than a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > half dozen (often one or two) were all they rostered., All were unique to ONE RR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > except the 36 foot Commonwealth depressed center flat (later offered by Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Car and by Walthers in styrene--both no longer available)that had several owners
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > through CR.  I expect reruns of these cars from LaBelle as noted above--most
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > were poised for reissue.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > today !
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11885
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 9/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Prototype Photo Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat, kit# 33, 
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      If anybocy has the ablility to scan in some prototype pictures, it would be greatly appreciated, or you can mail them to me at:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
8311 NW Waukomis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO 64151
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I will reimburse any cost, or, I have some old car parts that might be of interest.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> An additional photo taken from slightly above clearly showing the metal decked prototype appeared in the Car Builders Cyclopedia of 1919, page 328, figure 158 which was reprinted in 1975 in the Train Shed Cyclopedia No. 35. Road Number in the builder's photo is 9952. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Short answer, and with no instructtions, I believe that the original intent was that the truck bosters would be cemented directly to the card floor.  Looking at the prototype drawing, the floor to rail height seems to be 36 inches;(2'2-1/2" chord +9-7/16" to railhead); so that is a good guide to what can be done underneath for added rigity.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I have one partially assembled kit and see that it had the orignal pin mounted bolsers, but the prior owner peened the pins down to hold the trucks permanently onto the bolster.  My car body floor has bowed a bit as the bolsters were never mounted.  I plan to cut and glue a rigid thin sheet aluminum subfloor at each end first, to work out the bow, then epoxy the bolsters to that.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > I also I pulled out a neatly assembled version I bought years ago at a show, but see that the modeler inserted a wood subfloor at each end and added Varney six wheel Commonwealth trucks..(!)...That will have to be rebuilt now that I know more about it and have the extra proper Lamount trucks now. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@" <nvrr49@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Do the truck bolsters just glue to the back side of the pressed cardboard?  The old instructions have a little to be desired, but that would certainly keep the car to a low profile. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > ___________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > The Lehigh Valley semi well flat car had a pressed fibre deck with rivit detail
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > to simulate steel deck. One had to cut out the hole for the well. Early kits
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > used a body bolster with pin that prototypically set through the pivot on trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > with no attachment. Cyclopedia photos noted by others show a wood deck.  Last
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > run by us added a new  "K" shaped casting to form both ends of the well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Earlier versions used wood blocks then we tried a vac formed plastic well. Cast
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > sides do not have the "rib." This car was rerun and ready for re release by us
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > so it will likely be an early release from LaBelle as they get Red Ball rolling
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > again.  The Allied overhead crane was offered as a Hometown detailing kit and in
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > the Hometown Orton Crane Works kit by us.  LaBelle will have existing inventory
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > for this item as well.     Howell Day marketed most of the heavy duty flats with
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > loads. We did not in the interest of maintaining reasonable car kit prices.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > All the heavy duty flatcars by Red Ball had prototypes.  On the RR fewer than a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > half dozen (often one or two) were all they rostered., All were unique to ONE RR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > except the 36 foot Commonwealth depressed center flat (later offered by Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Car and by Walthers in styrene--both no longer available)that had several owners
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > through CR.  I expect reruns of these cars from LaBelle as noted above--most
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > were poised for reissue.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > today !
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11886
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Prototype Photo Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley Well Hole Flat, kit# 33, 
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Kent,  I'll try firing up the old scanner later tonight as I have a new copy of its software.  If that is not successfull, and no one else can scan them, will get copies to you in the mail.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> If anybocy has the ablility to scan in some prototype pictures, it would be greatly appreciated, or you can mail them to me at:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 8311 NW Waukomis
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Kansas City, MO 64151
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I will reimburse any cost, or, I have some old car parts that might be of interest.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > An additional photo taken from slightly above clearly showing the metal decked prototype appeared in the Car Builders Cyclopedia of 1919, page 328, figure 158 which was reprinted in 1975 in the Train Shed Cyclopedia No. 35. Road Number in the builder's photo is 9952. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > Short answer, and with no instructtions, I believe that the original intent was that the truck bosters would be cemented directly to the card floor.  Looking at the prototype drawing, the floor to rail height seems to be 36 inches;(2'2-1/2" chord +9-7/16" to railhead); so that is a good guide to what can be done underneath for added rigity.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I have one partially assembled kit and see that it had the orignal pin mounted bolsers, but the prior owner peened the pins down to hold the trucks permanently onto the bolster.  My car body floor has bowed a bit as the bolsters were never mounted.  I plan to cut and glue a rigid thin sheet aluminum subfloor at each end first, to work out the bow, then epoxy the bolsters to that.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > I also I pulled out a neatly assembled version I bought years ago at a show, but see that the modeler inserted a wood subfloor at each end and added Varney six wheel Commonwealth trucks..(!)...That will have to be rebuilt now that I know more about it and have the extra proper Lamount trucks now. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@" <nvrr49@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Do the truck bolsters just glue to the back side of the pressed cardboard?  The old instructions have a little to be desired, but that would certainly keep the car to a low profile. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > ___________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > The Lehigh Valley semi well flat car had a pressed fibre deck with rivit detail
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > to simulate steel deck. One had to cut out the hole for the well. Early kits
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > used a body bolster with pin that prototypically set through the pivot on trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > with no attachment. Cyclopedia photos noted by others show a wood deck.  Last
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > run by us added a new  "K" shaped casting to form both ends of the well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Earlier versions used wood blocks then we tried a vac formed plastic well. Cast
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > sides do not have the "rib." This car was rerun and ready for re release by us
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > so it will likely be an early release from LaBelle as they get Red Ball rolling
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > again.  The Allied overhead crane was offered as a Hometown detailing kit and in
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > the Hometown Orton Crane Works kit by us.  LaBelle will have existing inventory
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > for this item as well.     Howell Day marketed most of the heavy duty flats with
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > loads. We did not in the interest of maintaining reasonable car kit prices.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > All the heavy duty flatcars by Red Ball had prototypes.  On the RR fewer than a
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > half dozen (often one or two) were all they rostered., All were unique to ONE RR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > except the 36 foot Commonwealth depressed center flat (later offered by Eastern
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Car and by Walthers in styrene--both no longer available)that had several owners
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > through CR.  I expect reruns of these cars from LaBelle as noted above--most
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > were poised for reissue.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > > today !
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11887
						From: Model RailRoad Warehouse
						Date: 9/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Red Ball Lehigh Valley
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      There were wood subfloors for both ends of the Red Ball LV Semiwell flat.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Model RR Warehouse.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out today !
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11888
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 9/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Since this kit does not have them, what was the thickness of the piece of wood?  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> There were wood subfloors for both ends of the Red Ball LV Semiwell flat.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Model RR Warehouse.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out today !
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11889
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Thank you for the info, Merle.  Kent, what I will do tonight is dry fit the trucks & bolsters and embossed floor together, placed on the rails.  Since the prototype's floor measured 3 feet above the rail (according to at least one Red Ball catalog and the Cyclopedia drawings), I will subtract the height of the dry fit parts from 3 scale feet.  That will give me the thickness of the subfloor needed.  Since my scanner did not work last night with the copied software from the web, copies of the drawings and photos will be in the mail to you.  W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Since this kit does not have them, what was the thickness of the piece of wood?  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > There were wood subfloors for both ends of the Red Ball LV Semiwell flat.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Model RR Warehouse.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out today !
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11890
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Laconia information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                               I 
am looking for some information and have sent some pictures of a Laconia HO 
car kit for a Sierra R. R. Combine to view. While they also made freight cars I 
am only looking for information for about this or any other passenger cars they 
might have made. This is an all cast metal kit you assemble and paint. Does 
anyone know if there are other passenger cars ?  When was this or other 
passenger cars made ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              I also 
would like information about a 4-4-0 steam engine ,  style much like the 
Mantua 4-4-0 Belle of the Eighties, that was sold under the Laconia Conover 
name. While I have a rough date can anyone provide what materials it was made of 
?  Was it a kit or factory assembled ? If factory assembled was it factory 
painted ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              Thank 
you in advance for information.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11891
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Laconia information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                              Want 
to clarify my request and be more specific about information I am seeking. 
Only want to know about other "shorty" passenger cars like the Sierra Combine 
and am looking for dates for the Laconia items only not Binkley.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 6:38 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Laconia information
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               
  I am looking for some information and have sent some pictures of a 
  Laconia HO car kit for a Sierra R. R. Combine to view. While they also made 
  freight cars I am only looking for information for about this or any other 
  passenger cars they might have made. This is an all cast metal kit you 
  assemble and paint. Does anyone know if there are other passenger cars ?  
  When was this or other passenger cars made ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              I also 
  would like information about a 4-4-0 steam engine ,  style much like the 
  Mantua 4-4-0 Belle of the Eighties, that was sold under the Laconia Conover 
  name. While I have a rough date can anyone provide what materials it was made 
  of ?  Was it a kit or factory assembled ? If factory assembled was it 
  factory painted ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              Thank 
  you in advance for information.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11892
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 9/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Ambroid H-16 instructions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Ladies and Gentleman, I am in need of instructions for the Ambroid H-16 D&H Caboose.  Got a kit, but no instructions. I already checked HOSeeker.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
thanks, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11893
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Laconia information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      



 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      The Sierra Railway built a branch to Angels Camp 
(of Mark Twain's frog fame) that involved crossing a deep river canyon--Possibly 
the Stanislaus River?--It was operated with a Shay, and needed the very short 
cars.  Combine #5 and Coach #6.  MDC picked these up as their 
"Overton" series, adding 3 other cars.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:03 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Laconia 
  information
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              Want 
  to clarify my request and be more specific about information I am 
  seeking. Only want to know about other "shorty" passenger cars like the Sierra 
  Combine and am looking for dates for the Laconia items only not 
  Binkley.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 6:38 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Laconia information
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                               I am looking for 
    some information and have sent some pictures of a Laconia HO car kit 
    for a Sierra R. R. Combine to view. While they also made freight cars I am 
    only looking for information for about this or any other passenger cars they 
    might have made. This is an all cast metal kit you assemble and paint. Does 
    anyone know if there are other passenger cars ?  When was this or other 
    passenger cars made ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                              I 
    also would like information about a 4-4-0 steam engine ,  style much 
    like the Mantua 4-4-0 Belle of the Eighties, that was sold under the Laconia 
    Conover name. While I have a rough date can anyone provide what materials it 
    was made of ?  Was it a kit or factory assembled ? If factory assembled 
    was it factory painted ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                              
    Thank you in advance for information.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                           
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.113/2400 - Release 
  Date: 09/28/09 05:51:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11894
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 9/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Laconia information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      





 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked it--it is the Stanislaus River above the 
New Melones Reservoir
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  Glenn476 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 5:52 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Laconia 
  information
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      The Sierra Railway built a branch to Angels Camp 
  (of Mark Twain's frog fame) that involved crossing a deep river 
  canyon--Possibly the Stanislaus River?--It was operated with a Shay, and 
  needed the very short cars.  Combine #5 and Coach #6.  MDC picked 
  these up as their "Overton" series, adding 3 other cars.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 4:03 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: [vintageHO] Laconia 
    information
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    

                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                              Want 
    to clarify my request and be more specific about information I am 
    seeking. Only want to know about other "shorty" passenger cars like the 
    Sierra Combine and am looking for dates for the Laconia items only not 
    Binkley.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 6:38 
      PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Laconia information
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                               I am looking 
      for some information and have sent some pictures of a Laconia HO car 
      kit for a Sierra R. R. Combine to view. While they also made freight cars 
      I am only looking for information for about this or any other passenger 
      cars they might have made. This is an all cast metal kit you assemble and 
      paint. Does anyone know if there are other passenger cars ?  When was 
      this or other passenger cars made ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                              I 
      also would like information about a 4-4-0 steam engine ,  style much 
      like the Mantua 4-4-0 Belle of the Eighties, that was sold under the 
      Laconia Conover name. While I have a rough date can anyone provide what 
      materials it was made of ?  Was it a kit or factory assembled ? If 
      factory assembled was it factory painted ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                              
      Thank you in advance for information.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                           
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      

    

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
    www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.113/2400 - Release 
    Date: 09/28/09 
  05:51:00
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

  

                                                                                                                                                                                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.113/2400 - Release 
  Date: 09/28/09 05:51:00
                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11895
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Laconia information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Laconia, to my knowledge only offered the two die cast zamac cars, Sierra coach and combine.  The combine was first reviewed in the July, 1953 Model Railroader Trade Topics, P. 55.  I also have some original introductory Laconia paper on them and will pull all out and check for any other information.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
There is one similar "period" cast metal HO passenger car, but believe it to be made of white (lead based) metal, not diecast zamac, the highly detailed kit by Selly called the "Cinder Queen."
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Will see what else I have regarding the Laconia production of the Sierra cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
For those interested in the Laconia diecast metal car's history afterwards, as you stated Binkley sold them for a while, and then they passed into the Ulrich line, even later acquired by Walthers who sold by them into the 1970's.  After Walthers, do not know what became of the dies.  BC Models (Bob Cook) had them or copies, I think.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I do not believe the exact same dies were used by MDC/Roundhouse for their excellent injection molded Overton car line, although MDC certainly could have based their models on the same Sierra prototypes as the diecast Laconias.  The MDC/Roundhouse Overtons and ex-Laconia models by Walthers were produced and sold by each firm at the same time (see 1972 Walthers Catalog).
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          I am looking for some information and have sent some pictures of a Laconia HO car kit for a Sierra R. R. Combine to view. While they also made freight cars I am only looking for information for about this or any other passenger cars they might have made. This is an all cast metal kit you assemble and paint. Does anyone know if there are other passenger cars ?  When was this or other passenger cars made ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         I also would like information about a 4-4-0 steam engine ,  style much like the Mantua 4-4-0 Belle of the Eighties, that was sold under the Laconia Conover name. While I have a rough date can anyone provide what materials it was made of ?  Was it a kit or factory assembled ? If factory assembled was it factory painted ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         Thank you in advance for information.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11896
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Laconia's Full Legnth 80' Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim,H., 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
When I first read your message, thought you were only asking about the diecast Laconia Sierra passenger cars, but after a re-read, realized you needed information on their full-length cars as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have a well illustrated 8-1/2 x 17 illustrated folder showing their full length passenger cars (three body styles) and advising of a factory closeout sale.  Their cars were nicely proportioned, and listed as available at this closeout sale were the following kits:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
-Pullman Standard 80ft, 12 Section Sleeper, lettered "Hutchinson"
                                                                                                                                                                                      
-Chesapeake and Ohio 80ft. Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                      
-New York Central 80ft. Combination Baggage and Smoker
                                                                                                                                                                                      
-Standard 80ft. Pullman, lettered "Pullman" only, painted green
                                                                                                                                                                                      
-Standard 80ft Coach, unlettered, painted red or green
                                                                                                                                                                                      
-Standard 80ft. Comb. Baggage and Smoker, unlettered, painted red or green.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
All kits were originally $2.75, reduced to $2.05 or in quantity, $1.80 each, and this is how their construction was described: 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sides, ends and vestibule doorts are micro-embossed aluminum, (I assume like thier freight cars, which have the foil laminiated to card) laquer painted of Pullman Green or Red - lettering in gold.  Windows, door and end opeings are precision die cut. Complete underbody and finish detail. Die cast and turned brass ventilators; die ccast generator, triple valve, brake cyllinder, steps, cross beams.  Air tanks, water tank, battery boxes, grab irons, hand rails. Material for working diaphrams." Does not say if the six wheel trucks were included.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
They say that they are clearing them out to make room for their mew line of freight cars (which were introduced, I believe, in 1953.)  A further mimeographed price sheet that came in a Laconia Christmas 1954 folder has these kits, less trucks and coupler for $1.35 each.  I believe these kits were introduced circa 1949, as that is when the first Trade Topics review appeared.  Would have to research the ads for exact dates.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
All of this Laconia information I have is from the firm after they relocated to Stockton, California, but likely before the Binkley aquisition, as the Binkley name appears nowhere on any of this paperwork.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Hope this helps, those full legnth Laconia cars look good!
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          I am looking for some information and have sent some pictures of a Laconia HO car kit for a Sierra R. R. Combine to view. While they also made freight cars I am only looking for information for about this or any other passenger cars they might have made. This is an all cast metal kit you assemble and paint. Does anyone know if there are other passenger cars ?  When was this or other passenger cars made ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         I also would like information about a 4-4-0 steam engine ,  style much like the Mantua 4-4-0 Belle of the Eighties, that was sold under the Laconia Conover name. While I have a rough date can anyone provide what materials it was made of ?  Was it a kit or factory assembled ? If factory assembled was it factory painted ?
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         Thank you in advance for information.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11897
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 9/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Laconia information [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,  While the Sierra Combine and Coach were reviewed in July 1953, to be more precise according to your request, Laconia first produced them in February 1952.  You'll note, that in addition to the Sierra Combine you mention, there was also a matching Coach.  No other Period passenger cars were produced by Laconia, although they did offer a great line of more modern passenger cars from the '20's and 30's which I see you specifying (in your follow-up post) you do not want that information.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I thought I just got done reading of your asking whether these cars came with trucks or not, but can't find that part now (maybe I was reading a different thread).  In case you are wondering though, these kits came both ways -- with and without trucks -- depending on the modelers choice.  These Sierra car kits came in orange boxes with black lettering; the description of the car being found on both ends, but one end includes a narrow white paper kit description label designating -- with - "Super" (having trucks) -- or w/o (having  no trucks).  These kit numbers were: LA-10 Combine w/o Trucks, LA-11 Combine with (T-95) Trucks, LA-12 Coach w/o Trucks and LA-13 Coach with (T-95) trucks.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      As for the American-Type 4-4-0 Conover-Laconia (please note, the correct sequence of names as per the catalog -- Laconia-Conover is incorrect) steam engine, first appearing in the late 1930's but newly re-designed in 1939, this engine came both ways -- factory assembled-AND-painted. or as a 3-section kit.  Keep in mind, this 4-4-0 and their other locomotive the B&O 2-10-2 both were offered as two-rail and three-rail operation versions.  The 3-section kit  could be bought as one package for $22.50, or could be bought in separate sections for easier budgeting ($22.50 was like half a week's salary back then) at $8.00 per section.  Section one contained the running gear -- frame, cylinder block, Drivers, etc..  Section two contained the superstructure -- built-up brass boiler, cast bronze smoke box front, assembled cab, etc..  Section three contained the formed and stamped tender body, cast bronze underframe, Pittman motor w/flexible shafting, etc..  You'll note that this engine was a tender-drive model.  The factory assembled and finished (lettered to the modelers request) ready to run model was priced at $48.00 -- twice as much as the kit was priced at if bought as three separate sections.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Already stating what some of the materials were in this kit's manufacture, it was a combination of different metals, but I'll continue from the above.  The rods (fluted) and valve-gear (Stephenson-type) were stamped brass, the cowcatcher was die-cast as were the cross-heads, the cylinder blocks were cast bronze, the running boards were stamped, the air tanks and air pump were cast bronze.  Valve gear hanger/valve support bracket was cast bronze (pre-drilled).  Domes were die-cast, yet the smokestack and bell were turned brass and brass wire was used for the piping and handrails.    

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Interestingly, a "new 0-6-0 switch engine" was to be announced in October of 1939 according to one of their larger and more comprehensive catalogs I have, but I don't know if it was ever released.  I'm assuming not, as another subsequent (later) pre-War all-inclusive Laconia catalog I have (Fall 1940) makes no further mention of it.  BTW Jim, I just now noticed that the prices for the 4-4-0 were increased to $10 per section for the first two (engine) assembly kits and $9.50 for the tender/drive kit in mid-1939, and $55 for the factory assembled, painted & lettered version.  My Fall 1940 Laconia catalog makes no mention of either the 2-10-2 or the 4-4-0 engines, so it appears they were discontinued either in late 1939 or early 1940.  Ray F.W.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11898
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 9/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Laconia's Full Legnth 80' Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jay,  The 80' Laconia passenger cars you mention were first introduced pre-War.  The first three cars offered -- the Pullman Standard 80' 12-Section car ("Hutchinson"), the Chesapeake & Ohio Passenger Coach and the New York Central Combination Baggae and Smoker -- were brought out in the Summer of 1939 -- @ $2.50 ea.  The additional three cars -- the Standard Passenger Coach, the Standard Combination Baggage and Smoker and the Standard Pullman  -- were brought out by the Fall of 1940 -- also at that same price of $2.50 each.  At that time, their six wheel "Rolleze" passenger trucks were included.  This information came from Laconia's original-location catalogs at Laconia New Hampshire.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      After the War, they moved to Franklin, New Hampshire where they were resumed production, re-offering these same kits.  They then moved to 5509 Northrup Street, Stockton California between November 1950 and August 1951  During this period, there was no advertising from them so it was difficult to determine when their exact move was or how long it took them to resume production again, but 11/50 was their last ad at NH and 8/51 was their first ad at CA.  A fire in December '51 forced their move to 1707 E. Roosevelt, Stockton, CA.  This was their last address before the merger.  Binkley first stepped on the scene in September of 1953, with their own products.  They (Binkley) took over Laconia in November of 1955; when they did, they continued to use Laconia's name on those kits of Laconia's line.  They were permanently suspended in mid-1962.  Btw, those 80' cars SHOULD look good (I think so too), as they were scaled directly from the original working drawings of those cars, as per a statement in one of their catalogs.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11899
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 9/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Laconia information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Ray F W, W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                             Thanks 
for ALL the information as I try to separate only Laconia products from 
associations with Conover, Binkley or any others. I am trying to find first 
dates plus possible changes of design or materials that some times take 
place. You both really know how to compile information fast, concise and 
correct. I compliment you on that. I sometimes have trouble writing my 
name.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              Special 
to Ray F W    I don't remember mentioning about trucks or no 
trucks for the Laconia period passenger cars but that doesn't mean I didn't. 
 Perhaps it dealt with the Chester thread of a few days ago. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               
You response about the color and printing of boxes shows me they had different 
types as my box (shown in the pictures) is green with white printing. Add 
to that the word "Super" for trucks or not are more useful 
tidbits.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              On the 
subject of the Conover / Laconia 4-4-0 you are exactly right as I wrote the name 
backwards. My dyslexia. The little I knew about this engine came from the 
copy of a pre war Conover catalog you were kind enough to send me along 
with the Conover / Laconia name mentioned in Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon 
as it pertains to the 4-4-0. While I knew the Conover engines (2-10-2 and 4-4-0) 
were mainly heavy cast bronze like kits I knew nothing past that as to only 
kits, factory built. painted or not. One little thing I did learn from that 
little catalog you provided was that you could buy a slopped tender body and 
using the original tender frame make a "Yard Hog" engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                               I 
had always wondered if these brand name changes were followed by design or 
material changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Jim 
H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                              
.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 9:13 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Laconia 
  information
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim,  While the Sierra 
  Combine and Coach were reviewed in July 1953, to be more precise according to 
  your request, Laconia first produced them in February 1952.  You'll note, 
  that in addition to the Sierra Combine you mention, there was also a matching 
  Coach.  No other Period passenger cars were produced by Laconia, although 
  they did offer a great line of more modern passenger cars from the '20's and 
  30's which I see you specifying (in your follow-up post) you do not want that 
  information.   

                                                                                                                                                                                      I thought I just got done reading of your asking 
  whether these cars came with trucks or not, but can't find that part now 
  (maybe I was reading a different thread).  In case you are wondering 
  though, these kits came both ways -- with and without trucks -- depending on 
  the modelers choice.  These Sierra car kits came in orange boxes with 
  black lettering; the description of the car being found on both ends, but one 
  end includes a narrow white paper kit description label designating -- with - 
  "Super" (having trucks) -- or w/o (having  no trucks).  These kit 
  numbers were: LA-10 Combine w/o Trucks, LA-11 Combine with (T-95) Trucks, 
  LA-12 Coach w/o Trucks and LA-13 Coach with (T-95) trucks. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      As for the 
  American-Type 4-4-0 Conover-Laconia (please note, the correct sequence of 
  names as per the catalog -- Laconia-Conover is incorrect) steam engine, first 
  appearing in the late 1930's but newly re-designed in 1939, this engine came 
  both ways -- factory assembled-AND- painted. or as a 3-section kit. 
   Keep in mind, this 4-4-0 and their other locomotive the B&O 2-10-2 
  both were offered as two-rail and three-rail operation versions.  The 
  3-section kit  could be bought as one package for $22.50, or could be 
  bought in separate sections for easier budgeting ($22.50 was like half a 
  week's salary back then) at $8.00 per section.  Section one contained the 
  running gear -- frame, cylinder block, Drivers, etc..  Section two 
  contained the superstructure -- built-up brass boiler, cast bronze smoke box 
  front, assembled cab, etc..  Section three contained the formed and 
  stamped tender body, cast bronze underframe, Pittman motor w/flexible 
  shafting, etc..  You'll note that this engine was a tender-drive model. 
   The factory assembled and finished (lettered to the modelers request) 
  ready to run model was priced at $48.00 -- twice as much as the kit was priced 
  at if bought as three separate sections. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Already stating what some of 
  the materials were in this kit's manufacture, it was a combination of 
  different metals, but I'll continue from the above.  The rods (fluted) 
  and valve-gear (Stephenson- type) were stamped brass, the cowcatcher was 
  die-cast as were the cross-heads, the cylinder blocks were cast bronze, the 
  running boards were stamped, the air tanks and air pump were cast bronze. 
   Valve gear hanger/valve support bracket was cast bronze 
  (pre-drilled) .  Domes were die-cast, yet the smokestack and bell 
  were turned brass and brass wire was used for the piping and handrails. 
      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Interestingly, a "new 0-6-0 switch engine" was to 
  be announced in October of 1939 according to one of their larger and more 
  comprehensive catalogs I have, but I don't know if it was ever released. 
   I'm assuming not, as another subsequent (later) pre-War all-inclusive 
  Laconia catalog I have (Fall 1940) makes no further mention of it.  BTW 
  Jim, I just now noticed that the prices for the 4-4-0 were increased to $10 
  per section for the first two (engine) assembly kits and $9.50 for the 
  tender/drive kit in mid-1939, and $55 for the factory assembled, painted & 
  lettered version.  My Fall 1940 Laconia catalog makes no mention of 
  either the 2-10-2 or the 4-4-0 engines, so it appears they were discontinued 
  either in late 1939 or early 1940.  Ray F.W. 
  



                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11900
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Laconia's Full Legnth 80' Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Ray F.W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Thanks for the extensive additional information on these full length cars (I learned much) and the introduction date of the Sierra cars; the MR reviews are usually a indication of the general period to begin looking for the advertisements, but there is often a lag-time.  Amd I guess Laconia was trying to boost sales in 1949 by sending one to MR for review at that time. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
That green and black on white Laconia flier announcing the Sierra Combine (and coach to follow) that I have would date then, from 1952.  The photo on that, is of the worn prototype, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
In a related matter, while looking up the Laconia information for Jim, I noticed that one of the mimeographed sale fliers I have from Laconia lists parts for the freight cars as well, with individual road numbers, most having three different ones.  I checked the group's files and saw that the Laconia freight car road numbers are not listed, so if they are needed, I can furnish them in the next day or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Jay,  The 80' Laconia passenger cars you mention were first introduced 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> pre-War.  The first three cars offered -- the Pullman Standard 80' 12-Section 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> car ("Hutchinson"), the Chesapeake & Ohio Passenger Coach and the New York 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Central Combination Baggae and Smoker -- were brought out in the Summer of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 1939 -- @ $2.50 ea.  The additional three cars -- the Standard Passenger 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Coach, the Standard Combination Baggage and Smoker and the Standard Pullman  -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> were brought out by the Fall of 1940 -- also at that same price of $2.50 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> each.  At that time, their six wheel "Rolleze" passenger trucks were included.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> This information came from Laconia's original-location catalogs at Laconia 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> New Hampshire.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> After the War, they moved to Franklin, New Hampshire where they were 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> resumed production, re-offering these same kits.  They then moved to 5509 Northrup 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Street, Stockton California between November 1950 and August 1951  During 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> this period, there was no advertising from them so it was difficult to 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> determine when their exact move was or how long it took them to resume production 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> again, but 11/50 was their last ad at NH and 8/51 was their first ad at CA.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> A fire in December '51 forced their move to 1707 E. Roosevelt, Stockton, 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> CA.  This was their last address before the merger.  Binkley first stepped on 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the scene in September of 1953, with their own products.  They (Binkley) 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> took over Laconia in November of 1955; when they did, they continued to use 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Laconia's name on those kits of Laconia's line.  They were permanently 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> suspended in mid-1962.  Btw, those 80' cars SHOULD look good (I think so too), as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> they were scaled directly from the original working drawings of those cars, as 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> per a statement in one of their catalogs.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11901
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Laconia information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I read somewhere that information is useless unless shared, (I think Vane Jones used it on the front cover of his old traction magazine, too), so I try to share whatever little I have learned from my collection and "library."  Sometimes though, I find it is like being a blind man holding on to either an elephant's tail, trunk or leg and trying to describe the whole animal!  Am pleased that Ray F. W. was able to step in and expand my knowledge considerably on the Laconia Sierra and regular passenger car dates, as well as learning much more about the Conover-Laconia locomotives. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
And Jim, thanks to you, my interest in the various vintage passenger car lines has increased and am paying more attention to those models I had overlooked in the past, trying to at least have representative consists of some lines I do not have and have grown to appreciate.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Ray F W, W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>        Thanks for ALL the information as I try to separate only Laconia products from associations with Conover, Binkley or any others. I am trying to find first dates plus possible changes of design or materials that some times take place. You both really know how to compile information fast, concise and correct. I compliment you on that. I sometimes have trouble writing my name.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         Special to Ray F W    I don't remember mentioning about trucks or no trucks for the Laconia period passenger cars but that doesn't mean I didn't.  Perhaps it dealt with the Chester thread of a few days ago. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          You response about the color and printing of boxes shows me they had different types as my box (shown in the pictures) is green with white printing. Add to that the word "Super" for trucks or not are more useful tidbits.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         On the subject of the Conover / Laconia 4-4-0 you are exactly right as I wrote the name backwards. My dyslexia. The little I knew about this engine came from the copy of a pre war Conover catalog you were kind enough to send me along with the Conover / Laconia name mentioned in Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon as it pertains to the 4-4-0. While I knew the Conover engines (2-10-2 and 4-4-0) were mainly heavy cast bronze like kits I knew nothing past that as to only kits, factory built. painted or not. One little thing I did learn from that little catalog you provided was that you could buy a slopped tender body and using the original tender frame make a "Yard Hog" engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>          I had always wondered if these brand name changes were followed by design or material changes.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>                                                                                Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>         .
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   From: erieberk@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 9:13 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Laconia information
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>     Jim,  While the Sierra Combine and Coach were reviewed in July 1953, to be more precise according to your request, Laconia first produced them in February 1952.  You'll note, that in addition to the Sierra Combine you mention, there was also a matching Coach.  No other Period passenger cars were produced by Laconia, although they did offer a great line of more modern passenger cars from the '20's and 30's which I see you specifying (in your follow-up post) you do not want that information.   
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   I thought I just got done reading of your asking whether these cars came with trucks or not, but can't find that part now (maybe I was reading a different thread).  In case you are wondering though, these kits came both ways -- with and without trucks -- depending on the modelers choice.  These Sierra car kits came in orange boxes with black lettering; the description of the car being found on both ends, but one end includes a narrow white paper kit description label designating -- with - "Super" (having trucks) -- or w/o (having  no trucks).  These kit numbers were: LA-10 Combine w/o Trucks, LA-11 Combine with (T-95) Trucks, LA-12 Coach w/o Trucks and LA-13 Coach with (T-95) trucks. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   As for the American-Type 4-4-0 Conover-Laconia (please note, the correct sequence of names as per the catalog -- Laconia-Conover is incorrect) steam engine, first appearing in the late 1930's but newly re-designed in 1939, this engine came both ways -- factory assembled-AND-painted. or as a 3-section kit.  Keep in mind, this 4-4-0 and their other locomotive the B&O 2-10-2 both were offered as two-rail and three-rail operation versions.  The 3-section kit  could be bought as one package for $22.50, or could be bought in separate sections for easier budgeting ($22.50 was like half a week's salary back then) at $8.00 per section.  Section one contained the running gear -- frame, cylinder block, Drivers, etc..  Section two contained the superstructure -- built-up brass boiler, cast bronze smoke box front, assembled cab, etc..  Section three contained the formed and stamped tender body, cast bronze underframe, Pittman motor w/flexible shafting, etc..  You'll note that this engine was a tender-drive model.  The factory assembled and finished (lettered to the modelers request) ready to run model was priced at $48.00 -- twice as much as the kit was priced at if bought as three separate sections. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Already stating what some of the materials were in this kit's manufacture, it was a combination of different metals, but I'll continue from the above.  The rods (fluted) and valve-gear (Stephenson-type) were stamped brass, the cowcatcher was die-cast as were the cross-heads, the cylinder blocks were cast bronze, the running boards were stamped, the air tanks and air pump were cast bronze.  Valve gear hanger/valve support bracket was cast bronze (pre-drilled).  Domes were die-cast, yet the smokestack and bell were turned brass and brass wire was used for the piping and handrails.     
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>   Interestingly, a "new 0-6-0 switch engine" was to be announced in October of 1939 according to one of their larger and more comprehensive catalogs I have, but I don't know if it was ever released.  I'm assuming not, as another subsequent (later) pre-War all-inclusive Laconia catalog I have (Fall 1940) makes no further mention of it.  BTW Jim, I just now noticed that the prices for the 4-4-0 were increased to $10 per section for the first two (engine) assembly kits and $9.50 for the tender/drive kit in mid-1939, and $55 for the factory assembled, painted & lettered version.  My Fall 1940 Laconia catalog makes no mention of either the 2-10-2 or the 4-4-0 engines, so it appears they were discontinued either in late 1939 or early 1940.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11902
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 9/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Laconia information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jim,  Just wanted you to know, I didn't need to go to any trouble -- this information was already compiled some 20 years ago.  I wrote a big article on Laconia -- Binkley for the HO-SC&H - SIG (NMRA) back then for Dave Spanagel and did most of the research then.  For those new to this Group, the HO-SC&H SIG stands for H0 Scale Collectors and History - Special Interest Group (of the National Model Railroad Association), a group of dedicated vintage collectors of H0, much as we have here.  I couldn't have been that fast otherwise <g>.  As soon as I spotted your request though, I thought I'd pull that info right out again as Laconia has been one of my main interests.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Maybe I did read about the trucks in the Chester thread.  I figured it couldn't have hurt to add that info anyway, as it's just more information that you would not otherwise known about.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      As for the color and the printing of the boxes, Jim -- yes, both Laconia and Binkley had a number of different ones  Laconia used at least twelve different boxes during the course of their existance, at one time using 6 different ones for their various kits.  You may recall, I think it was last year, I was going to send at least my car listings to Chuck H. for inclusion in the files and was thinking about sending the history part of my article as well -- which would have include descriptions of all the kit boxes -- but got talked out of it.  I think I need to revise that thinking and go ahead with my intention.  Ray F.W.  
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11903
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 9/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Laconia's Full Legnth 80' Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Jay,  You're entirely welcome -- I'm pleased to be able to fill you in on this stuff, as long as I know or have literature for it, and it will help you out too.  It's next to impossible though, to have all the literature, which is where your sales flyer will come in handy.  Yes, Laconia used three different road/reporting numbers for all their later (post-War) freight car kits.  I have every freight car kit (by catalog number -- roadname), many of which I have two of the road numbers and many others of which I have all three road numbers.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      As you saw in my last post (to Jim), I will be re-doing my Binkley -- Laconia article which will include all the road numbers I have in my collection -- for both manufacturers.  I would most appreciate it, if you would, if you could please fill in any that I'm missing after I send this in.  I think you may enjoy the article if you're into Laconia and/or Binkley, especially if you like full descriptions, as this is the way we all tried writing up the manufacturers we tackled in the Special Interest Group.  It may seem heavy, as being too much, as we always went into the smallest details (including kit box dates and kit box descriptions including colors and SIZES), but these articles covered everything we could think of on a manufacturer which is always a benefit to some other collector even if not to everyone.   

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      BTW, I THOUGHT that list of 80' passenger cars was a bit short -- and after I checked my article, and then referred to my sources, I found one to be missing.  I addition to the 6 passenger cars we both mentioned, there was also an 80' Standard Pullman (Unlettered) in green or red offered as later production.   

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I believe I may have that same Laconia green & black on dullcoat gloss white introductory Sierra flyer you have, among many other Laconia introductory flyers, if yours says "Glamourous - Romantic - Nostalgic" in a green circle.  I won't repeat the first two parts of it, but perhaps it might be of some interest if the actual description part were included here.  It states; "The Combine has die-cast roof, sides, ends, platforms steps. stove pipes featuring an easy method of assembly.  the floor will be wood to save you ambarrassing shorts more likely to occur with metal floors.  Platform railings, hand grabs, truss rods all pre-formed.  No soldering necessary.  The length?  Only 36 1/2 scale feet over all, with details galore."  It goes on to say that "A 36 1/2 foot coach is soon to follow."

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Just noticed something else while browsing the rest of my sales flyers; the post-War (Franklin, NH) 80' Laconia passenger cars were sold either without trucks - - @ $2.75 ea., or with trucks (Model Die Casting Co.'s 6-wheel Pullman trucks) -- at $4.00 each.  Ray. F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11904
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 9/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H.,  W Jay W.,  Chuck H.  and anyone interested in Laconia and Binkley:  The following is a compilation of an article I did on these manufacturers some 20 or so years ago.  As I've been able to add to this knowledge, and to add to my collection in the interum, I will be adding a few notes within it which I'll use blue italics for -- not to be part of the articles narrative but only to add to its content.  Chuck, If you'd like, I'd appreciate your adding this to the files, or at least the car listings when I get to it.  As it covers a few pages, I'll do it in segments.  This article does not include anything on Laconia's engines as that will be covered separately, in the future, nor does it cover much of the pre-War history. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      BINKLEY/LACONIA

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                           by Ray Wetzel

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Two early manufacturers of primarily wood craftsman type kits left in their wake not only an interesting line of cars but also an interesting history resulting in one taking over the other, while still offering two separate lines (with two separate catalogs) after the takeover.  The two different lines are similar in construction, yet distinct enough to merit description of them here.  Additionally, while these two manufacturers were independent of each other in their early history I feel, in the interest of completeness, that they should both be covered at one time due to their mergence.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Laconia offered a comparatively small but very innteresting and colorful line of foil sided H0 cars (and one stryucture kit).  Binkley, meanwhile, offered a more extensive line of about 85 H0 and H0n3 freight cars and about two dozen Period passenger cars.  While the Binkley passenger car sides wwere of cardboard/foil, similar to Laconia's freight car kits, Binkley's freight cars were constructed of wood sides with cast metal ends.  With care, they build up into a good looking model albeit with several noteable exceptions.  In the late years, some kits were released with poorly scribed sides.  Also, a "steel" sided car in actuality had wood sides with rivet holes punched into the wood to simulate steel.  However, these two drawbacks do not make this line any less interesting nor any less collectable.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In the past few years, a brief but interesting article on each of the two lines have been published, making for engaging reading on these seldom recorded subjects.  A Binkley article, with a list of many kits (no numbers) and several photos, appeared in the June '81 issue of "Prototype Modeler."  An equally informative (if too short) piece on Laconia was written by Eric A. Bracher (with photos by Kal Sentrol) for the August '75 issue of NMRA Bulletin.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      A BRIEF HISTORY

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Firstly. I would like to touch on a brief  account of the history of these two lines. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      (Chuck, all, this is were I haven't gone back into Laconia's very early history before my 1940 mention).  Laconia's first advertising in the hobby magazines, as seen by this author, appear in August 1940.  (There may have been other ads that I missed, even though I have a fair collection of MR's -- even some complete years in the '30's -- but are still incomplete).  It seemed that Laconia stopped advertising (or at least advertised very sporadically) during WW II.  Their first post-War advertising in the hobby magazines resumed in 1948, their address (as earlier) being Laconia, New Hampshire.  By January 1949 they were manufacturing from Franklin, N.H.  Their early kits, when they resumed production, included flat cars, box cars, a number of reefers and six heavyweight passenger cars; a little later, hoppers and gondolas.  

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      (Chuck; added to this production at this time, I'll go back to the pre-War period here with their Lockhart-Laconia car kits, which would include ten "specialty" cars (each as a designated prototype for one road name only) and three 80' passenger cars, up through 1939 -- and ten box cars and eighteen reefers, through 1940 up until the War ceased production -- catalog numbers and descriptions to be included with the listings.  I'd like to state right here as part of the company's history, that the reefers were all previously manufactured and sold independently for several years by T.H. Lockhart, prior to them being produced by Laconia.  Laconia bought T.H. Lockhart's business in 1939 and included them in their 1940 catalog, continuing to produce them thereafter.  In the Summer of 1940, new molds were made for the couplers and end sills, the thickness of the wood ends was increased, the height of the Economy Trucks was lowered and the material from which they were stamped was changed from aluminum to steel -- increasing the weight by 50%, making for better tracking.  Over 30 pieces were included in these kits.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      I believe this opening statement in Laconia Industries 1939 catalog is most relevant at this point: "For the past year an honest effort has been put into the thought, design and construction of a line of model railway supplies that would bring to model builders true realism, ease of construction and resultant models that will be a standard of excellence on an model layout.  To this end we secured the services of F.E. Maloon, who was for twenty years chief designer for the Laconia Car Works                                                                                                                                                                                       [Chuck, that was a prototype railcar manufacturer].  Because of our location in part of the Laconia Car Company buildings, we have available many of the records of this company and volumes of indformation used by them in building equipment for the railroad world.  These facilities have been turned to use in making our models").  I'll mention too, that Laconia Industries also produced an 0 scale line -- the Johnson-Laconia 0 Gauge Line -- which I won't go into here.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Their last advertising at Franklin, N.H. was in November 1950.  Between then and August 1951 they moved to 5509 Northrup Street, Stockton, California when their first ad appeared for that address.  A fire in December of 1951 forced their move to 1707 E. Roosevelt, Stockton, CA, their last address before the merger.  The first advertising from their new factory at that address appeared in March '52.  Their only structure kit, the "F.J. Campodonico" Wholesale Fruit Brokers Warehouse was advertised in January '52, and a month later, in February, their cast metal Sierra combine and coach were produced -- still from their Northrup Street address albeit in limited numbers here due to the fire which finally forced their move the following month. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      The following year, colorful Ralston-Purina boxcar was produced, first advertised in March 1953.  This car was advertised and cataloged as a boxcar despite its definite reefer-like appearance.  August '53 saw the release of the first four of their new 42' "Billboard" reefers; four more were released in November '53, several more later.  Most Laconia freight cars were available in three different road numbers.  Several heavyweight passenger cars were for specific roads, while others were undecorated green or red.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Binkley stepped on the scene with their first ad (for an 1850 UP 55' Pay Car) in September of 1953.  Their P.O. Box 31, Englewood, CA address remained unchanged in their address throughout their history.  Their next ad appeared in November '53 and was for their 1880 Business Car.  In November of 1955, they took over Laconia and continued to produce their cars under the Laconia name into the 1960's.  Their narrow gauge cars were some of the first ones offered.  A side-door caboose consisting of cast metal sides, ends and roof (& cupola) was available to be used with either H0 or Hon3 trucks.  Another nice all die-cast metal car was the C&O high side gondola.  Production of Binkley (and at the same time, Laconia) was permanently suspended in mid-1962.

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck, others, that's the end of my history part of this article.  I'll continue with the kit boxes and the kit production listings next.  Ray F.W.                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11905
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 9/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi all,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
just found a Trackside specialities kit at eBay:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://cgi.ebay.com/PRR-2-10-4-MECHANISM-TRACKSIDE-SPECIALTIES_W0QQitemZ260484305253
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11906
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 9/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Laconia information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> For those interested in the Laconia diecast metal car's history 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> afterwards, as you stated Binkley sold them for a while, and then they 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> passed into the Ulrich line, even later acquired by Walthers who sold 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> by them into the 1970's. After Walthers, do not know what became of 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the dies. BC Models (Bob Cook) had them or copies, I think.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I do not believe the exact same dies were used by MDC/Roundhouse for 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> their excellent injection molded Overton car line, although MDC 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> certainly could have based their models on the same Sierra prototypes 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> as the diecast Laconias. The MDC/Roundhouse Overtons and ex-Laconia 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> models by Walthers were produced and sold by each firm at the same 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> time (see 1972 Walthers Catalog).
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Jim, Jay and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
 
                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim, Jay and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Westside did those two cars in brass. The respective files can be viewed 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
at Larrys website.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.hoseeker.net/westsideinformation.html
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11907
						From: Garry Spear
						Date: 9/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Red Ball - Howell Day Kit No. 175
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Having read the discussion about Red Ball, Laconia, And Binkley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
prompted me to go digging in my excess and unbuilt kits supply.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have a Howell Day/Red Ball Kit No. 175 /  Outside Braced Penna Box
                                                                                                                                                                                      
car.  The kit has been started by a good craftsman and is complete
                                                                                                                                                                                      
less trucks and couplers.  The car body is assembled and painted,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
except for one unpainted door.  Asking $12.00, Priority Mail Shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Included.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
I have have 3, New Stewart Alco Century 628, factory decorated PRR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
diesels $65.00 each, shipping included, each.  And lastly there are 2
                                                                                                                                                                                      
P2K, PRR, GP9 II diesels, #s 7006 & 7020, $75.00 each shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                      
included.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Each price includes $5.00 for shipping.  Multiple item purchases will
                                                                                                                                                                                      
be be credited $2.50 for the second to fifth engine.  Local pickup or
                                                                                                                                                                                      
York, Pa (TCA show) pickup will be given full shipping credit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The locomotive are New In the Box.  The Stewart locomotives have been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
out of the box to check the box contents; I never took the P2K
                                                                                                                                                                                      
locomotive out of the box.  All locomotives have DCC connections and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the P2K locomotive have Kayee type couplers installed.  Some assembly
                                                                                                                                                                                      
is required for all locomotives.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Garrett (Garry) Spear
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11908
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 9/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      I will get this loaded in the file section
over the weekend and add the other sections to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of  erieberk@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, September 30,
2009 9:43 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Laconia
& Binkley Information
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                       

Jim
H.,  W Jay W.,  Chuck H.  and anyone interested in
 Laconia and Binkley:
 The following is a compilation of an article I did on these manufacturers
some 20 or so years ago.  As I've been able to add to this knowledge, and
to add to my collection in the interum, I will be adding a few notes within it
which I'll use blue italics for -- not to be part of the articles narrative but
only to add to its content.  Chuck, If you'd like, I'd appreciate your
adding this to the files, or at least the car listings when I get to it.
 As it covers a few pages, I'll do it in segments.  This article does
not include anything on Laconia 's
engines as that will be covered separately, in the future, nor does it cover 


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      


 

	
	


                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11909
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 9/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      That would be great, Chuck.  Thanks a lot!  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11910
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 9/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball - Howell Day Kit No. 175
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Garry S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
If no one has spoken for it yet, I checked and only have the sister R-7 reefer assembled.  I'd like to purchase this model.  Nothing I like better than completing unfinished kits, especially Red Ball ones.  If still available, please let me know your mailing address off list and a USPS mo will be out in tomorrow morning's mail.  Thanks, W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Garry Spear <garrettspear@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Having read the discussion about Red Ball, Laconia, And Binkley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> prompted me to go digging in my excess and unbuilt kits supply.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have a Howell Day/Red Ball Kit No. 175 /  Outside Braced Penna Box
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> car.  The kit has been started by a good craftsman and is complete
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> less trucks and couplers.  The car body is assembled and painted,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> except for one unpainted door.  Asking $12.00, Priority Mail Shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Included.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> I have have 3, New Stewart Alco Century 628, factory decorated PRR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> diesels $65.00 each, shipping included, each.  And lastly there are 2
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> P2K, PRR, GP9 II diesels, #s 7006 & 7020, $75.00 each shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> included.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Each price includes $5.00 for shipping.  Multiple item purchases will
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> be be credited $2.50 for the second to fifth engine.  Local pickup or
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> York, Pa (TCA show) pickup will be given full shipping credit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> The locomotive are New In the Box.  The Stewart locomotives have been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> out of the box to check the box contents; I never took the P2K
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> locomotive out of the box.  All locomotives have DCC connections and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> the P2K locomotive have Kayee type couplers installed.  Some assembly
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> is required for all locomotives.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Garrett (Garry) Spear
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11911
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 9/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball - Howell Day Kit No. 175
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Shoot, ya beat me to it.  I should be inside on the 'puter instead of out 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
working to clean up the garden for winter <G>
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:58 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball - Howell Day Kit No. 175
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Hi Garry S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> If no one has spoken for it yet, I checked and only have the sister R-7 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> reefer assembled.  I'd like to purchase this model.  Nothing I like better 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> than completing unfinished kits, especially Red Ball ones.  If still 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> available, please let me know your mailing address off list and a USPS mo 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> will be out in tomorrow morning's mail.  Thanks, W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Garry Spear <garrettspear@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Having read the discussion about Red Ball, Laconia, And Binkley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> prompted me to go digging in my excess and unbuilt kits supply.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I have a Howell Day/Red Ball Kit No. 175 /  Outside Braced Penna Box
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> car.  The kit has been started by a good craftsman and is complete
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> less trucks and couplers.  The car body is assembled and painted,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> except for one unpainted door.  Asking $12.00, Priority Mail Shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Included.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> I have have 3, New Stewart Alco Century 628, factory decorated PRR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> diesels $65.00 each, shipping included, each.  And lastly there are 2
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> P2K, PRR, GP9 II diesels, #s 7006 & 7020, $75.00 each shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> included.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Each price includes $5.00 for shipping.  Multiple item purchases will
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> be be credited $2.50 for the second to fifth engine.  Local pickup or
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> York, Pa (TCA show) pickup will be given full shipping credit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> The locomotive are New In the Box.  The Stewart locomotives have been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> out of the box to check the box contents; I never took the P2K
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> locomotive out of the box.  All locomotives have DCC connections and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> the P2K locomotive have Kayee type couplers installed.  Some assembly
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> is required for all locomotives.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>> Garrett (Garry) Spear
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11912
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Red Ball - Howell Day Kit No. 175
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Don D., I usually am the one who is behind by about three minutes, but I had the advantage this time as it was long dark outside here when I checked in and spotted the offer of sale!  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Shoot, ya beat me to it.  I should be inside on the 'puter instead of out 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> working to clean up the garden for winter <G>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:58 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball - Howell Day Kit No. 175
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Hi Garry S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > If no one has spoken for it yet, I checked and only have the sister R-7 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > reefer assembled.  I'd like to purchase this model.  Nothing I like better 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > than completing unfinished kits, especially Red Ball ones.  If still 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > available, please let me know your mailing address off list and a USPS mo 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > will be out in tomorrow morning's mail.  Thanks, W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Garry Spear <garrettspear@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Having read the discussion about Red Ball, Laconia, And Binkley
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> prompted me to go digging in my excess and unbuilt kits supply.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> I have a Howell Day/Red Ball Kit No. 175 /  Outside Braced Penna Box
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> car.  The kit has been started by a good craftsman and is complete
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> less trucks and couplers.  The car body is assembled and painted,
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> except for one unpainted door.  Asking $12.00, Priority Mail Shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Included.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> I have have 3, New Stewart Alco Century 628, factory decorated PRR
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> diesels $65.00 each, shipping included, each.  And lastly there are 2
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> P2K, PRR, GP9 II diesels, #s 7006 & 7020, $75.00 each shipping
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> included.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Each price includes $5.00 for shipping.  Multiple item purchases will
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> be be credited $2.50 for the second to fifth engine.  Local pickup or
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> York, Pa (TCA show) pickup will be given full shipping credit.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> The locomotive are New In the Box.  The Stewart locomotives have been
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> out of the box to check the box contents; I never took the P2K
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> locomotive out of the box.  All locomotives have DCC connections and
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> the P2K locomotive have Kayee type couplers installed.  Some assembly
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> is required for all locomotives.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >> Garrett (Garry) Spear
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                      
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11913
						From: Jim Waterman
						Date: 10/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                      I believe that this is a mechanism for an AHM PRR 
J-1, probably has some parts from Westside models. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Nothing here made by TS, but that is my father's 
handwriting on the box. 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      son of Vince, owner of Trackside Specialties. 

                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11914
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 10/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      The Allegheny 2-6-6-6 that is on eBay is a Winton, version 1. It is  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
unusually complete, and judging from reading the Winton literature of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the times,  it is possible that toward the end of production of this  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
version, Winton improved the appearance of drivers as compared to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
their extremely crude early "Necco Wafer" drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The first version Winton 2-6-6-6 was all machinings and was produced  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
c. 1948-54 or so. There were no cast pieces (and was so advertised),  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
and although dimensionally probably fairly accurate, the detailing and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
finish were very crude, and there was virtually no way to really save  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the day in these regards. Even the drive wheels were basic disc  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
turnings. Very few were ever successfully built to actually operate in  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
any reliable fashion. This version was last advertised in March 1953.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The second version Winton 2-6-6-6 was made up of all investment brass  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
castings, a far different, and completely separate animal bearing no  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
relationship to the earlier model except for prototype, the large  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
castings proprietary to Winton, the multitudinous small castings  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
apparently purchased from Budd (a supplier purchased by Kemtron). This  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
production was underway in some fashion in 1955, and although never  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
specifically *advertised* under the Winton name (to my knowledge) , at  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
least one of these very complex locomotives under the Winton  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
imprimatur was completed to a very high level of quality and finish in  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
c. 1957-9.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
All, Winton v1., Winton v2, and MaRa  were all produced by Winton  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Brown in his Danville, CA location.  At the time between the end of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the first production version and the second, Winton gained employment  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
at the U of California, which quite reasonable may well have  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
influenced just how he spent his time.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The subsequent "MaRa" version was and is the self-same above second- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
version Winton marketed under the MaRa name beginning March 1961, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
the locomotive model photo depicted in their advertisements  is of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
pre-MaRa  finished Winton model noted just above. The last MaRa  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
advertisement for this locomotive was in February 1963, following  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
which it disappeared from the market altogether.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
The finished MaRa version of this Winton 2-6-6-6  has to be one of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
very finest HO locomotive models ever produced. IMHO, the earlier  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
model is a collector's curiosity at best.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
This subject has been discussed on this list in some detail just this  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
past year that should answer most of the questions posed.  See Files  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
under "Winton" for photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                      

								
                                                                                                                                                                                      
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						                                                                                                                                                                                      		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      

				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11915
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 10/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      There is a Winton Allegheny on eBay? I have not been able to locate it in 
any category--including completed transactions. The only Winton piece I can find 
is that tender that goes with a Winton Berkshire. Perhaps someone listed a 
2-6-6-6 for a short while and withdrew it? Interesting that Dan remarks that 
very few of the first versions were ever built to operate in "any reliable 
fashion." I might mention that I have two of them that are totally complete with 
original parts (except for one that has flexible material used as couplings in 
the drive train instead of the original spring-type material). One is painted 
and the other isn't. They both operate with good reliability but certainly would 
require broad curves. I will include photos on line if anyone is interested. 
They were extremely difficult to build correctly as you might guess. The painted 
one is gorgeous and has some added details. I also have at least one Winton 
Berkshire that runs very well (not painted) and another that is complete but 
does not run well due to the fact that the pulley/spring belts were a failure in 
design. The successful one is gear driven and a later version. I might add that 
the Berkshire is actually American OO gauge that runs on HO track and reflects 
the jockeying of gauges of the times. I find Dan's description of the Winton 
efforts very informative. I might add too that I have a typewritten letter (done 
on the old ribbon style typewriter that needed a new ribbon) that is signed by 
Winton Brown himself and apologizing and explaining to a customer why he 
couldn't deliver all the items he ordered. I believe it's dated sometime in 
April of 1951.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      Doylestown, PA
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In a message dated 10/1/2009 3:49:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
danspach@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      The 
  Allegheny 2-6-6-6 that is on eBay is a Winton, version 1. It is  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      unusually complete, and judging from reading the Winton literature 
  of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      the times,  it is possible that toward the end of production 
  of this  
                                                                                                                                                                                      version, Winton improved the appearance of drivers as 
  compared to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      their extremely crude early "Necco Wafer" 
  drivers.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The first version Winton 2-6-6-6 was all machinings and was 
  produced  
                                                                                                                                                                                      c. 1948-54 or so. There were no cast pieces (and was so 
  advertised),  
                                                                                                                                                                                      and although dimensionally probably fairly accurate, 
  the detailing and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      finish were very crude, and there was virtually no 
  way to really save  
                                                                                                                                                                                      the day in these regards. Even the drive wheels 
  were basic disc  
                                                                                                                                                                                      turnings. Very few were ever successfully built to 
  actually operate in  
                                                                                                                                                                                      any reliable fashion. This version was last 
  advertised in March 1953.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The second version Winton 2-6-6-6 was made up 
  of all investment brass  
                                                                                                                                                                                      castings, a far different, and completely 
  separate animal bearing no  
                                                                                                                                                                                      relationship to the earlier model except 
  for prototype, the large  
                                                                                                                                                                                      castings proprietary to Winton, the 
  multitudinous small castings  
                                                                                                                                                                                      apparently purchased from Budd (a 
  supplier purchased by Kemtron). This  
                                                                                                                                                                                      production was underway in some 
  fashion in 1955, and although never  
                                                                                                                                                                                      specifically *advertised* under 
  the Winton name (to my knowledge) , at  
                                                                                                                                                                                      least one of these very 
  complex locomotives under the Winton  
                                                                                                                                                                                      imprimatur was completed to a 
  very high level of quality and finish in  
                                                                                                                                                                                      c. 1957-9.

                                                                                                                                                                                      All, 
  Winton v1., Winton v2, and MaRa  were all produced by Winton  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Brown in his Danville, CA location.  At the time between the end 
  of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      the first production version and the second, Winton gained 
  employment  
                                                                                                                                                                                      at the U of California, which quite reasonable may well 
  have  
                                                                                                                                                                                      influenced just how he spent his time.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The subsequent 
  "MaRa" version was and is the self-same above second- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      version Winton 
  marketed under the MaRa name beginning March 1961, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      the 
  locomotive model photo depicted in their advertisements  is of the  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      pre-MaRa  finished Winton model noted just above. The last MaRa  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      advertisement for this locomotive was in February 1963, following  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      which it disappeared from the market altogether.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The finished MaRa 
  version of this Winton 2-6-6-6  has to be one of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      very 
  finest HO locomotive models ever produced. IMHO, the earlier  
                                                                                                                                                                                      model 
  is a collector's curiosity at best.

                                                                                                                                                                                      This subject has been discussed on 
  this list in some detail just this  
                                                                                                                                                                                      past year that should answer most 
  of the questions posed.  See Files  
                                                                                                                                                                                      under "Winton" for 
  photos.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny S.  Anspach 
  MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sacramento

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny S.  Anspach 
  MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sacramento







                                                                                                                                                                                      ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11916
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 10/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry, Denny, I inadvertently referred to you as "Dan." 
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                      In a message dated 10/1/2009 5:01:28 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
luvprr@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       


                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      There is a Winton Allegheny on eBay? I have not been able to locate it in 
  any category--including completed transactions. The only Winton piece I can 
  find is that tender that goes with a Winton Berkshire. Perhaps someone 
  listed a 2-6-6-6 for a short while and withdrew it? Interesting that Dan 
  remarks that very few of the first versions were ever built to operate in "any 
  reliable fashion." I might mention that I have two of them that are totally 
  complete with original parts (except for one that has flexible material used 
  as couplings in the drive train instead of the original spring-type material). 
  One is painted and the other isn't. They both operate with good reliability 
  but certainly would require broad curves. I will include photos on line if 
  anyone is interested. They were extremely difficult to build correctly as you 
  might guess. The painted one is gorgeous and has some added details. I 
  also have at least one Winton Berkshire that runs very well (not painted) and 
  another that is complete but does not run well due to the fact that the 
  pulley/spring belts were a failure in design. The successful one is gear 
  driven and a later version. I might add that the Berkshire is actually 
  American OO gauge that runs on HO track and reflects the jockeying of gauges 
  of the times. I find Dan's description of the Winton efforts very informative. 
  I might add too that I have a typewritten letter (done on the old ribbon style 
  typewriter that needed a new ribbon) that is signed by Winton Brown himself 
  and apologizing and explaining to a customer why he couldn't deliver all the 
  items he ordered. I believe it's dated sometime in April of 1951.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Doylestown, PA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      In a message dated 10/1/2009 3:49:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
  danspach@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      The 
    Allegheny 2-6-6-6 that is on eBay is a Winton, version 1. It is  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      unusually complete, and judging from reading the Winton literature 
    of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      the times,  it is possible that toward the end of 
    production of this  
                                                                                                                                                                                      version, Winton improved the appearance of 
    drivers as compared to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      their extremely crude early "Necco Wafer" 
    drivers.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The first version Winton 2-6-6-6 was all machinings and was 
    produced  
                                                                                                                                                                                      c. 1948-54 or so. There were no cast pieces (and was so 
    advertised),  
                                                                                                                                                                                      and although dimensionally probably fairly accurate, 
    the detailing and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      finish were very crude, and there was virtually 
    no way to really save  
                                                                                                                                                                                      the day in these regards. Even the drive 
    wheels were basic disc  
                                                                                                                                                                                      turnings. Very few were ever successfully 
    built to actually operate in  
                                                                                                                                                                                      any reliable fashion. This version 
    was last advertised in March 1953.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The second version Winton 2-6-6-6 
    was made up of all investment brass  
                                                                                                                                                                                      castings, a far different, and 
    completely separate animal bearing no  
                                                                                                                                                                                      relationship to the earlier 
    model except for prototype, the large  
                                                                                                                                                                                      castings proprietary to 
    Winton, the multitudinous small castings  
                                                                                                                                                                                      apparently purchased from 
    Budd (a supplier purchased by Kemtron). This  
                                                                                                                                                                                      production was 
    underway in some fashion in 1955, and although never  
                                                                                                                                                                                      specifically 
    *advertised* under the Winton name (to my knowledge) , at  
                                                                                                                                                                                      least 
    one of these very complex locomotives under the Winton  
                                                                                                                                                                                      imprimatur 
    was completed to a very high level of quality and finish in  
                                                                                                                                                                                      c. 
    1957-9.

                                                                                                                                                                                      All, Winton v1., Winton v2, and MaRa  were all produced 
    by Winton  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Brown in his Danville, CA location.  At the time 
    between the end of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      the first production version and the second, 
    Winton gained employment  
                                                                                                                                                                                      at the U of California, which quite 
    reasonable may well have  
                                                                                                                                                                                      influenced just how he spent his 
    time.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The subsequent "MaRa" version was and is the self-same above 
    second- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      version Winton marketed under the MaRa name beginning March 
    1961, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      the locomotive model photo depicted in their 
    advertisements  is of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      pre-MaRa  finished Winton 
    model noted just above. The last MaRa  
                                                                                                                                                                                      advertisement for this 
    locomotive was in February 1963, following  
                                                                                                                                                                                      which it disappeared 
    from the market altogether.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The finished MaRa version of this Winton 
    2-6-6-6  has to be one of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      very finest HO locomotive 
    models ever produced. IMHO, the earlier  
                                                                                                                                                                                      model is a collector's 
    curiosity at best.

                                                                                                                                                                                      This subject has been discussed on this list in 
    some detail just this  
                                                                                                                                                                                      past year that should answer most of the 
    questions posed.  See Files  
                                                                                                                                                                                      under "Winton" for 
    photos.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny S.  Anspach 
    MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sacramento

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny S.  Anspach 
    MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sacramento







                                                                                                                                                                                      ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11917
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                      Hi Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                          
        I have not found the Winton 2-6-6-6 
that Denny mentioned either. Perhaps an Ebay number would help. I'm assuming 
that Denny was able to spot a Winton Allegheny engine that was totally 
mislabeled. I don't want to buy it but would like to look at it to 
compare to mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         Denny's narrative is very informative. 
He has a more complete version which I copied and keep in my files. You are 
right when you mention they are very hard to complete but Denny is also right 
that the number successfully completed is probably small. Most are in an 
uncompleted state.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         I am lucky to have totally 
completed one of the first versions. It is unpainted but is in an album 
here.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         I also have a completed and painted 
the Winton version of the Berkshire which I am very proud of. Also in 
an album. It was not very easy to complete either. Mine is the spring drive 
type. I however have a decent running engine which can pull a number of 
cars. Why MY coil spring belt / pulley type engine runs better I don't 
know. I do know you must double wind the coil spring as shown on the plans to 
get it to run at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                         Your are very lucky to have and 
completed so many Winton engines (Both types)  Would love to see pictures 
of them all.
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      From: 
  luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 7:43 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton Allegheny 
  2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  

                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      There is a Winton Allegheny on eBay? I have not been able to locate it in 
  any category--including completed transactions. The only Winton piece I can 
  find is that tender that goes with a Winton Berkshire. Perhaps someone 
  listed a 2-6-6-6 for a short while and withdrew it? Interesting that Dan 
  remarks that very few of the first versions were ever built to operate in "any 
  reliable fashion." I might mention that I have two of them that are totally 
  complete with original parts (except for one that has flexible material used 
  as couplings in the drive train instead of the original spring-type material). 
  One is painted and the other isn't. They both operate with good reliability 
  but certainly would require broad curves. I will include photos on line if 
  anyone is interested. They were extremely difficult to build correctly as you 
  might guess. The painted one is gorgeous and has some added details. I 
  also have at least one Winton Berkshire that runs very well (not painted) and 
  another that is complete but does not run well due to the fact that the 
  pulley/spring belts were a failure in design. The successful one is gear 
  driven and a later version. I might add that the Berkshire is actually 
  American OO gauge that runs on HO track and reflects the jockeying of gauges 
  of the times. I find Dan's description of the Winton efforts very informative. 
  I might add too that I have a typewritten letter (done on the old ribbon style 
  typewriter that needed a new ribbon) that is signed by Winton Brown himself 
  and apologizing and explaining to a customer why he couldn't deliver all the 
  items he ordered. I believe it's dated sometime in April of 1951.
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Doylestown, PA
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      In a message dated 10/1/2009 3:49:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
  danspach@macnexus. org writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                      The 
    Allegheny 2-6-6-6 that is on eBay is a Winton, version 1. It is  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                      unusually complete, and judging from reading the Winton literature 
    of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      the times,  it is possible that toward the end of 
    production of this  
                                                                                                                                                                                      version, Winton improved the appearance of 
    drivers as compared to  
                                                                                                                                                                                      their extremely crude early "Necco Wafer" 
    drivers.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The first version Winton 2-6-6-6 was all machinings and was 
    produced  
                                                                                                                                                                                      c. 1948-54 or so. There were no cast pieces (and was so 
    advertised),  
                                                                                                                                                                                      and although dimensionally probably fairly accurate, 
    the detailing and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      finish were very crude, and there was virtually 
    no way to really save  
                                                                                                                                                                                      the day in these regards. Even the drive 
    wheels were basic disc  
                                                                                                                                                                                      turnings. Very few were ever successfully 
    built to actually operate in  
                                                                                                                                                                                      any reliable fashion. This version 
    was last advertised in March 1953.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The second version Winton 2-6-6-6 
    was made up of all investment brass  
                                                                                                                                                                                      castings, a far different, and 
    completely separate animal bearing no  
                                                                                                                                                                                      relationship to the earlier 
    model except for prototype, the large  
                                                                                                                                                                                      castings proprietary to 
    Winton, the multitudinous small castings  
                                                                                                                                                                                      apparently purchased from 
    Budd (a supplier purchased by Kemtron). This  
                                                                                                                                                                                      production was 
    underway in some fashion in 1955, and although never  
                                                                                                                                                                                      specifically 
    *advertised* under the Winton name (to my knowledge) , at  
                                                                                                                                                                                      least 
    one of these very complex locomotives under the Winton  
                                                                                                                                                                                      imprimatur 
    was completed to a very high level of quality and finish in  
                                                                                                                                                                                      c. 
    1957-9.

                                                                                                                                                                                      All, Winton v1., Winton v2, and MaRa  were all produced 
    by Winton  
                                                                                                                                                                                      Brown in his Danville, CA location.  At the time 
    between the end of  
                                                                                                                                                                                      the first production version and the second, 
    Winton gained employment  
                                                                                                                                                                                      at the U of California, which quite 
    reasonable may well have  
                                                                                                                                                                                      influenced just how he spent his 
    time.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The subsequent "MaRa" version was and is the self-same above 
    second- 
                                                                                                                                                                                      version Winton marketed under the MaRa name beginning March 
    1961, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                      the locomotive model photo depicted in their 
    advertisements  is of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      pre-MaRa  finished Winton 
    model noted just above. The last MaRa  
                                                                                                                                                                                      advertisement for this 
    locomotive was in February 1963, following  
                                                                                                                                                                                      which it disappeared 
    from the market altogether.

                                                                                                                                                                                      The finished MaRa version of this Winton 
    2-6-6-6  has to be one of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                      very finest HO locomotive 
    models ever produced. IMHO, the earlier  
                                                                                                                                                                                      model is a collector's 
    curiosity at best.

                                                                                                                                                                                      This subject has been discussed on this list in 
    some detail just this  
                                                                                                                                                                                      past year that should answer most of the 
    questions posed.  See Files  
                                                                                                                                                                                      under "Winton" for 
    photos.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny S.  Anspach 
    MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sacramento

                                                                                                                                                                                      Denny S.  Anspach 
    MD
                                                                                                                                                                                      Sacramento







                                                                                                                                                                                      ------------ --------- --------- ------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11918
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 10/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
				
                                                                                                                                                                                      
					
                                                                                                                                                                                      
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                      
								
                                                                                                                                                                                      


                                                                                                                                                                                      Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                        
 


                                                                                                                                                                                        No luck in finding a mis-identified 2-6-6-6 on eBay. I could be losing my 
eyesight in any case. Here are the pics of my two Winton Alleghenies. 
                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 10/1/2009 5:40:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
jimheck@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                         


                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        Hi Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            
          I have not found the Winton 2-6-6-6 
  that Denny mentioned either. Perhaps an Ebay number would help. I'm assuming 
  that Denny was able to spot a Winton Allegheny engine that was totally 
  mislabeled. I don't want to buy it but would like to look at it to 
  compare to mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Denny's narrative is very 
  informative. He has a more complete version which I copied and keep in my 
  files. You are right when you mention they are very hard to complete but Denny 
  is also right that the number successfully completed is probably small. Most 
  are in an uncompleted state.
                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           I am lucky to have totally 
  completed one of the first versions. It is unpainted but is in an album 
  here.
                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           I also have a completed and painted 
  the Winton version of the Berkshire which I am very proud of. Also 
  in an album. It was not very easy to complete either. Mine is the spring drive 
  type. I however have a decent running engine which can pull a number of 
  cars. Why MY coil spring belt / pulley type engine runs better I 
  don't know. I do know you must double wind the coil spring as shown on the 
  plans to get it to run at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           Your are very lucky to have and 
  completed so many Winton engines (Both types)  Would love to see pictures 
  of them all.
                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        From: 
    luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 7:43 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton 
    Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                        
    

                                                                                                                                                                                          
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        There is a Winton Allegheny on eBay? I have not been able to locate it 
    in any category--including completed transactions. The only Winton piece I 
    can find is that tender that goes with a Winton Berkshire. Perhaps 
    someone listed a 2-6-6-6 for a short while and withdrew it? Interesting that 
    Dan remarks that very few of the first versions were ever built to operate 
    in "any reliable fashion." I might mention that I have two of them that are 
    totally complete with original parts (except for one that has flexible 
    material used as couplings in the drive train instead of the original 
    spring-type material). One is painted and the other isn't. They both operate 
    with good reliability but certainly would require broad curves. I will 
    include photos on line if anyone is interested. They were extremely 
    difficult to build correctly as you might guess. The painted one is gorgeous 
    and has some added details. I also have at least one Winton Berkshire 
    that runs very well (not painted) and another that is complete but does not 
    run well due to the fact that the pulley/spring belts were a failure in 
    design. The successful one is gear driven and a later version. I might add 
    that the Berkshire is actually American OO gauge that runs on HO track and 
    reflects the jockeying of gauges of the times. I find Dan's description of 
    the Winton efforts very informative. I might add too that I have a 
    typewritten letter (done on the old ribbon style typewriter that needed a 
    new ribbon) that is signed by Winton Brown himself and apologizing and 
    explaining to a customer why he couldn't deliver all the items he ordered. I 
    believe it's dated sometime in April of 1951.
                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        Doylestown, PA
                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        In a message dated 10/1/2009 3:49:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
    danspach@macnexus. org writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                        
    
                                                                                                                                                                                        The 
      Allegheny 2-6-6-6 that is on eBay is a Winton, version 1. It is  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                        unusually complete, and judging from reading the Winton literature 
      of  
                                                                                                                                                                                        the times,  it is possible that toward the end of 
      production of this  
                                                                                                                                                                                        version, Winton improved the appearance of 
      drivers as compared to  
                                                                                                                                                                                        their extremely crude early "Necco Wafer" 
      drivers.

                                                                                                                                                                                        The first version Winton 2-6-6-6 was all machinings and 
      was produced  
                                                                                                                                                                                        c. 1948-54 or so. There were no cast pieces (and 
      was so advertised),  
                                                                                                                                                                                        and although dimensionally probably fairly 
      accurate, the detailing and  
                                                                                                                                                                                        finish were very crude, and there 
      was virtually no way to really save  
                                                                                                                                                                                        the day in these regards. 
      Even the drive wheels were basic disc  
                                                                                                                                                                                        turnings. Very few were 
      ever successfully built to actually operate in  
                                                                                                                                                                                        any reliable 
      fashion. This version was last advertised in March 1953.

                                                                                                                                                                                        The second 
      version Winton 2-6-6-6 was made up of all investment brass  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                        castings, a far different, and completely separate animal bearing 
      no  
                                                                                                                                                                                        relationship to the earlier model except for prototype, the 
      large  
                                                                                                                                                                                        castings proprietary to Winton, the multitudinous small 
      castings  
                                                                                                                                                                                        apparently purchased from Budd (a supplier purchased by 
      Kemtron). This  
                                                                                                                                                                                        production was underway in some fashion in 1955, 
      and although never  
                                                                                                                                                                                        specifically *advertised* under the Winton 
      name (to my knowledge) , at  
                                                                                                                                                                                        least one of these very complex 
      locomotives under the Winton  
                                                                                                                                                                                        imprimatur was completed to a very 
      high level of quality and finish in  
                                                                                                                                                                                        c. 1957-9.

                                                                                                                                                                                        All, 
      Winton v1., Winton v2, and MaRa  were all produced by Winton  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                        Brown in his Danville, CA location.  At the time between the end 
      of  
                                                                                                                                                                                        the first production version and the second, Winton gained 
      employment  
                                                                                                                                                                                        at the U of California, which quite reasonable may 
      well have  
                                                                                                                                                                                        influenced just how he spent his time.

                                                                                                                                                                                        The 
      subsequent "MaRa" version was and is the self-same above second- 
      
                                                                                                                                                                                        version Winton marketed under the MaRa name beginning March 1961, 
      and  
                                                                                                                                                                                        the locomotive model photo depicted in their 
      advertisements  is of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                        pre-MaRa  finished Winton 
      model noted just above. The last MaRa  
                                                                                                                                                                                        advertisement for this 
      locomotive was in February 1963, following  
                                                                                                                                                                                        which it disappeared 
      from the market altogether.

                                                                                                                                                                                        The finished MaRa version of this 
      Winton 2-6-6-6  has to be one of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                        very finest HO 
      locomotive models ever produced. IMHO, the earlier  
                                                                                                                                                                                        model is a 
      collector's curiosity at best.

                                                                                                                                                                                        This subject has been discussed on 
      this list in some detail just this  
                                                                                                                                                                                        past year that should answer 
      most of the questions posed.  See Files  
                                                                                                                                                                                        under "Winton" for 
      photos.

                                                                                                                                                                                        Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                        Denny S.  Anspach 
      MD
                                                                                                                                                                                        Sacramento

                                                                                                                                                                                        Denny S.  Anspach 
      MD
                                                                                                                                                                                        Sacramento







                                                                                                                                                                                        ------------ --------- --------- ------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11919
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                        
					
                                                                                                                                                                                        
						Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                        
				
                                                                                                                                                                                        
				
                                                                                                                                                                                        
					
                                                                                                                                                                                        
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                        
								
                                                                                                                                                                                        


                                                                                                                                                                                        Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                          

 
 



 

                                                                                                                                                                                              Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                           Thanks for the pictures. They look great.I will look more closely at 
them . If interested in mine go to photos. I think the 3rd or 4th page.  
Album name ( among the others) is Jim Heckard's Photos    
Pictures JH005-006-007-008
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          From: 
  luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                          
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 9:07 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton Allegheny 
  2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                          
  

                                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          No luck in finding a mis-identified 2-6-6-6 on eBay. I could be losing my 
  eyesight in any case. Here are the pics of my two Winton Alleghenies. 
                                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          
  
                                                                                                                                                                                          In a message dated 10/1/2009 5:40:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimheck@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                          
  


                                                                                                                                                                                          
    
                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                          
    
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                          
    
                                                                                                                                                                                              
            I have not found the Winton 
    2-6-6-6 that Denny mentioned either. Perhaps an Ebay number would help. I'm 
    assuming that Denny was able to spot a Winton Allegheny engine that was 
    totally mislabeled. I don't want to buy it but would like to look 
    at it to compare to mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                          
    
                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                          
    
                                                                                                                                                                                             Denny's narrative is very 
    informative. He has a more complete version which I copied and keep in my 
    files. You are right when you mention they are very hard to complete but 
    Denny is also right that the number successfully completed is probably 
    small. Most are in an uncompleted state.
                                                                                                                                                                                          
    
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                          
    
                                                                                                                                                                                             I am lucky to have totally 
    completed one of the first versions. It is unpainted but is in an album 
    here.
                                                                                                                                                                                          
    
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                          
    
                                                                                                                                                                                             I also have a completed and 
    painted the Winton version of the Berkshire which I am very proud 
    of. Also in an album. It was not very easy to complete either. Mine is the 
    spring drive type. I however have a decent running engine which can 
    pull a number of cars. Why MY coil spring belt / pulley type 
    engine runs better I don't know. I do know you must double wind the 
    coil spring as shown on the plans to get it to run at all.
                                                                                                                                                                                          
    
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                          
    
                                                                                                                                                                                             Your are very lucky to have and 
    completed so many Winton engines (Both types)  Would love to see 
    pictures of them all.
                                                                                                                                                                                          
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                          
    
                                                                                                                                                                                          
      
                                                                                                                                                                                          ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                          
      
                                                                                                                                                                                          From: 
      luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                          
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 7:43 
      PM
                                                                                                                                                                                          
      
                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton 
      Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                          
      

                                                                                                                                                                                            
      
                                                                                                                                                                                          
      
                                                                                                                                                                                          
      
                                                                                                                                                                                          There is a Winton Allegheny on eBay? I have not been able to locate 
      it in any category--including completed transactions. The only Winton 
      piece I can find is that tender that goes with a Winton Berkshire. 
      Perhaps someone listed a 2-6-6-6 for a short while and withdrew it? 
      Interesting that Dan remarks that very few of the first versions were ever 
      built to operate in "any reliable fashion." I might mention that I have 
      two of them that are totally complete with original parts (except for one 
      that has flexible material used as couplings in the drive train instead of 
      the original spring-type material). One is painted and the other isn't. 
      They both operate with good reliability but certainly would require broad 
      curves. I will include photos on line if anyone is interested. They were 
      extremely difficult to build correctly as you might guess. The painted one 
      is gorgeous and has some added details. I also have at least one 
      Winton Berkshire that runs very well (not painted) and another that is 
      complete but does not run well due to the fact that the pulley/spring 
      belts were a failure in design. The successful one is gear driven and a 
      later version. I might add that the Berkshire is actually American OO 
      gauge that runs on HO track and reflects the jockeying of gauges of the 
      times. I find Dan's description of the Winton efforts very informative. I 
      might add too that I have a typewritten letter (done on the old ribbon 
      style typewriter that needed a new ribbon) that is signed by Winton Brown 
      himself and apologizing and explaining to a customer why he couldn't 
      deliver all the items he ordered. I believe it's dated sometime in April 
      of 1951.
                                                                                                                                                                                          
      
                                                                                                                                                                                          Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                          
      
                                                                                                                                                                                          Doylestown, PA
                                                                                                                                                                                          
      
                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                          
      
                                                                                                                                                                                          
      
                                                                                                                                                                                          In a message dated 10/1/2009 3:49:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
      danspach@macnexus. org writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                          
      
                                                                                                                                                                                          The Allegheny 2-6-6-6 that is on eBay is a Winton, version 1. 
        It is  
                                                                                                                                                                                          unusually complete, and judging from reading the Winton 
        literature of  
                                                                                                                                                                                          the times,  it is possible that toward the 
        end of production of this  
                                                                                                                                                                                          version, Winton improved the 
        appearance of drivers as compared to  
                                                                                                                                                                                          their extremely crude 
        early "Necco Wafer" drivers.

                                                                                                                                                                                          The first version Winton 2-6-6-6 was 
        all machinings and was produced  
                                                                                                                                                                                          c. 1948-54 or so. There were 
        no cast pieces (and was so advertised),  
                                                                                                                                                                                          and although 
        dimensionally probably fairly accurate, the detailing and  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                          finish were very crude, and there was virtually no way to really 
        save  
                                                                                                                                                                                          the day in these regards. Even the drive wheels were 
        basic disc  
                                                                                                                                                                                          turnings. Very few were ever successfully built to 
        actually operate in  
                                                                                                                                                                                          any reliable fashion. This version was 
        last advertised in March 1953.

                                                                                                                                                                                          The second version Winton 2-6-6-6 
        was made up of all investment brass  
                                                                                                                                                                                          castings, a far different, 
        and completely separate animal bearing no  
                                                                                                                                                                                          relationship to the 
        earlier model except for prototype, the large  
                                                                                                                                                                                          castings 
        proprietary to Winton, the multitudinous small castings  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                          apparently purchased from Budd (a supplier purchased by Kemtron). 
        This  
                                                                                                                                                                                          production was underway in some fashion in 1955, and 
        although never  
                                                                                                                                                                                          specifically *advertised* under the Winton name 
        (to my knowledge) , at  
                                                                                                                                                                                          least one of these very complex 
        locomotives under the Winton  
                                                                                                                                                                                          imprimatur was completed to a 
        very high level of quality and finish in  
                                                                                                                                                                                          c. 
        1957-9.

                                                                                                                                                                                          All, Winton v1., Winton v2, and MaRa  were all 
        produced by Winton  
                                                                                                                                                                                          Brown in his Danville, CA location.  
        At the time between the end of  
                                                                                                                                                                                          the first production version 
        and the second, Winton gained employment  
                                                                                                                                                                                          at the U of 
        California, which quite reasonable may well have  
                                                                                                                                                                                          influenced 
        just how he spent his time.

                                                                                                                                                                                          The subsequent "MaRa" version was and 
        is the self-same above second- 
                                                                                                                                                                                          version Winton marketed under the 
        MaRa name beginning March 1961, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                          the locomotive model photo 
        depicted in their advertisements  is of the  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                          pre-MaRa  finished Winton model noted just above. The last 
        MaRa  
                                                                                                                                                                                          advertisement for this locomotive was in February 1963, 
        following  
                                                                                                                                                                                          which it disappeared from the market 
        altogether.

                                                                                                                                                                                          The finished MaRa version of this Winton 
        2-6-6-6  has to be one of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                          very finest HO locomotive 
        models ever produced. IMHO, the earlier  
                                                                                                                                                                                          model is a collector's 
        curiosity at best.

                                                                                                                                                                                          This subject has been discussed on this list 
        in some detail just this  
                                                                                                                                                                                          past year that should answer most of 
        the questions posed.  See Files  
                                                                                                                                                                                          under "Winton" for 
        photos.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                          Denny S.  Anspach 
        MD
                                                                                                                                                                                          Sacramento

                                                                                                                                                                                          Denny S.  Anspach 
        MD
                                                                                                                                                                                          Sacramento







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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11920
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 10/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
						Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                          
								
                                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                                          Sorry!  This is an old post sent in error while changing an outgoing  
                                                                                                                                                                                          
server while reactivating a computer that had been down for two months.
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          
I apologise for the false alarm!
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                          
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                          

								
                                                                                                                                                                                          
							
                                                                                                                                                                                          
						                                                                                                                                                                                          		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                                          

				
                                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11921
						From: Chris B
						Date: 10/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
						Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                          
								
                                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                                          oh well...there is a winton tender on ebay, if that helps.

                                                                                                                                                                                          From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Fri, October 2, 2009 12:14:02 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6

                                                                                                                                                                                          






 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                          
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                          Sorry!  This is an old post sent in error while changing an outgoing  
                                                                                                                                                                                          
server while reactivating a computer that had been down for two months.
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          
I apologise for the false alarm!
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                          
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                            


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                          

      
                                                                                                                                                                                          

								
                                                                                                                                                                                          
							
                                                                                                                                                                                          
						                                                                                                                                                                                          		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                                          

				
                                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11922
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 10/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
						Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                          
								
                                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                                          Looks like he had everyone fooled...
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          
From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Fri, October 2, 2009 1:28:44 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6

                                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          oh well...there is a winton tender on ebay, if that helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          
From: Denny Anspach <danspach@macnexus. org>
                                                                                                                                                                                          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                          Sent: Fri, October 2, 2009 12:14:02 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6

                                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          Sorry! This is an old post sent in error while changing an outgoing 
                                                                                                                                                                                          server while reactivating a computer that had been down for two months.

                                                                                                                                                                                          I apologise for the false alarm!

                                                                                                                                                                                          Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                          Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                          Sacramento



                                                                                                                                                                                          

      
                                                                                                                                                                                          

								
                                                                                                                                                                                          
							
                                                                                                                                                                                          
						                                                                                                                                                                                          		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                                          

				
                                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11923
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 10/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
						Subject: Re: Mystery HO scale brass boiler 4-4-2 Varney? Chassis w/ a Lindsay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                          
								
                                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          I just wanted to send a belated Tanks to all those who have responded to my info request.
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                          Sean

                                                                                                                                                                                          

      
                                                                                                                                                                                          

								
                                                                                                                                                                                          
							
                                                                                                                                                                                          
						                                                                                                                                                                                          		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                                          

				
                                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11924
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 10/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
						Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                                          
				
                                                                                                                                                                                          
					
                                                                                                                                                                                          
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                          
								
                                                                                                                                                                                          


                                                                                                                                                                                          Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                            
 


                                                                                                                                                                                            Jim, how do I access your album?
                                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                            In a message dated 10/1/2009 6:48:54 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
jimheck@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                             


                                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                                             Thanks for the pictures. They look great.I will look more closely 
  at them . If interested in mine go to photos. I think the 3rd or 4th 
  page.  Album name ( among the others) is Jim Heckard's 
  Photos    Pictures JH005-006-007-008
                                                                                                                                                                                            
  
                                                                                                                                                                                            
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                            
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            From: 
    luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                            
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 9:07 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                            
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton 
    Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                            
    

                                                                                                                                                                                            
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            No luck in finding a mis-identified 2-6-6-6 on eBay. I could be losing 
    my eyesight in any case. Here are the pics of my two Winton Alleghenies. 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            
    
                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                            
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            
    
                                                                                                                                                                                            In a message dated 10/1/2009 5:40:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimheck@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                            
    


                                                                                                                                                                                            
      
                                                                                                                                                                                            Hi Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                            
      
                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                            
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                
              I have not found the Winton 
      2-6-6-6 that Denny mentioned either. Perhaps an Ebay number would help. 
      I'm assuming that Denny was able to spot a Winton Allegheny engine that 
      was totally mislabeled. I don't want to buy it but would like to 
      look at it to compare to mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                            
      
                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                            
      
                                                                                                                                                                                               Denny's narrative is very 
      informative. He has a more complete version which I copied and keep in my 
      files. You are right when you mention they are very hard to complete but 
      Denny is also right that the number successfully completed is probably 
      small. Most are in an uncompleted state.
                                                                                                                                                                                            
      
                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                            
      
                                                                                                                                                                                               I am lucky to have totally 
      completed one of the first versions. It is unpainted but is in an album 
      here.
                                                                                                                                                                                            
      
                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                            
      
                                                                                                                                                                                               I also have a completed and 
      painted the Winton version of the Berkshire which I am very 
      proud of. Also in an album. It was not very easy to complete either. Mine 
      is the spring drive type. I however have a decent running engine 
      which can pull a number of cars. Why MY coil spring belt / pulley 
      type engine runs better I don't know. I do know you must double wind 
      the coil spring as shown on the plans to get it to run at 
all.
                                                                                                                                                                                            
      
                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                            
      
                                                                                                                                                                                               Your are very lucky to have and 
      completed so many Winton engines (Both types)  Would love to see 
      pictures of them all.
                                                                                                                                                                                            
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                            
      
                                                                                                                                                                                            
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                            
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            From: 
        luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                            
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 
        7:43 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                            
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton 
        Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                            
        

                                                                                                                                                                                              
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            There is a Winton Allegheny on eBay? I have not been able to locate 
        it in any category--including completed transactions. The only Winton 
        piece I can find is that tender that goes with a Winton Berkshire. 
        Perhaps someone listed a 2-6-6-6 for a short while and withdrew it? 
        Interesting that Dan remarks that very few of the first versions were 
        ever built to operate in "any reliable fashion." I might mention that I 
        have two of them that are totally complete with original parts (except 
        for one that has flexible material used as couplings in the drive train 
        instead of the original spring-type material). One is painted and the 
        other isn't. They both operate with good reliability but certainly would 
        require broad curves. I will include photos on line if anyone is 
        interested. They were extremely difficult to build correctly as you 
        might guess. The painted one is gorgeous and has some added 
        details. I also have at least one Winton Berkshire that runs very well 
        (not painted) and another that is complete but does not run well due to 
        the fact that the pulley/spring belts were a failure in design. The 
        successful one is gear driven and a later version. I might add that the 
        Berkshire is actually American OO gauge that runs on HO track and 
        reflects the jockeying of gauges of the times. I find Dan's description 
        of the Winton efforts very informative. I might add too that I have a 
        typewritten letter (done on the old ribbon style typewriter that needed 
        a new ribbon) that is signed by Winton Brown himself and apologizing and 
        explaining to a customer why he couldn't deliver all the items he 
        ordered. I believe it's dated sometime in April of 1951.
                                                                                                                                                                                            
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                            
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            Doylestown, PA
                                                                                                                                                                                            
        
                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                            
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            In a message dated 10/1/2009 3:49:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
        danspach@macnexus. org writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                            
        
                                                                                                                                                                                            The Allegheny 2-6-6-6 that is on eBay is a Winton, version 
          1. It is  
                                                                                                                                                                                            unusually complete, and judging from reading the 
          Winton literature of  
                                                                                                                                                                                            the times,  it is possible that 
          toward the end of production of this  
                                                                                                                                                                                            version, Winton 
          improved the appearance of drivers as compared to  
                                                                                                                                                                                            their 
          extremely crude early "Necco Wafer" drivers.

                                                                                                                                                                                            The first version 
          Winton 2-6-6-6 was all machinings and was produced  
                                                                                                                                                                                            c. 
          1948-54 or so. There were no cast pieces (and was so 
          advertised),  
                                                                                                                                                                                            and although dimensionally probably fairly 
          accurate, the detailing and  
                                                                                                                                                                                            finish were very crude, and 
          there was virtually no way to really save  
                                                                                                                                                                                            the day in these 
          regards. Even the drive wheels were basic disc  
                                                                                                                                                                                            turnings. 
          Very few were ever successfully built to actually operate in  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                            any reliable fashion. This version was last advertised in March 
          1953.

                                                                                                                                                                                            The second version Winton 2-6-6-6 was made up of all 
          investment brass  
                                                                                                                                                                                            castings, a far different, and completely 
          separate animal bearing no  
                                                                                                                                                                                            relationship to the earlier model 
          except for prototype, the large  
                                                                                                                                                                                            castings proprietary to 
          Winton, the multitudinous small castings  
                                                                                                                                                                                            apparently 
          purchased from Budd (a supplier purchased by Kemtron). This  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                            production was underway in some fashion in 1955, and although 
          never  
                                                                                                                                                                                            specifically *advertised* under the Winton name (to my 
          knowledge) , at  
                                                                                                                                                                                            least one of these very complex locomotives 
          under the Winton  
                                                                                                                                                                                            imprimatur was completed to a very high 
          level of quality and finish in  
                                                                                                                                                                                            c. 1957-9.

                                                                                                                                                                                            All, Winton 
          v1., Winton v2, and MaRa  were all produced by Winton  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                            Brown in his Danville, CA location.  At the time between the 
          end of  
                                                                                                                                                                                            the first production version and the second, Winton 
          gained employment  
                                                                                                                                                                                            at the U of California, which quite 
          reasonable may well have  
                                                                                                                                                                                            influenced just how he spent his 
          time.

                                                                                                                                                                                            The subsequent "MaRa" version was and is the self-same 
          above second- 
                                                                                                                                                                                            version Winton marketed under the MaRa name 
          beginning March 1961, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                            the locomotive model photo 
          depicted in their advertisements  is of the  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                            pre-MaRa  finished Winton model noted just above. The last 
          MaRa  
                                                                                                                                                                                            advertisement for this locomotive was in February 1963, 
          following  
                                                                                                                                                                                            which it disappeared from the market 
          altogether.

                                                                                                                                                                                            The finished MaRa version of this Winton 
          2-6-6-6  has to be one of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                            very finest HO locomotive 
          models ever produced. IMHO, the earlier  
                                                                                                                                                                                            model is a 
          collector's curiosity at best.

                                                                                                                                                                                            This subject has been discussed 
          on this list in some detail just this  
                                                                                                                                                                                            past year that should 
          answer most of the questions posed.  See Files  
                                                                                                                                                                                            under 
          "Winton" for photos.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                            Denny S.  Anspach 
          MD
                                                                                                                                                                                            Sacramento

                                                                                                                                                                                            Denny S.  Anspach 
          MD
                                                                                                                                                                                            Sacramento







                                                                                                                                                                                            ------------ --------- --------- ------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11925
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                                            
						Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                                            
				
                                                                                                                                                                                            
					
                                                                                                                                                                                            
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                            
								
                                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                                                                                                                                            Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                              

 
 



 

                                                                                                                                                                                              Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                 Go into the yahoo vintage HO web site main page.To the left 
look for photos. Click and all permanent albums should come up.  
I think my albums would be on the 3rd or 4th page. Go to the one that 
says Jim Heckard's Photos  The top picture on this album is a Pennsy 
Trackside Specialties Electric. Click on it to open the album and just go to the 
picture numbers I cited. JH005  JH006  JH007 and JH008
                                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                If you can't find it I will send pictures direct to you if you give 
me your Email address to send them. I'm not very computer literate to even 
make my own albums and others were creating them for me so you will find a 
number of albums with my name on them. These are part of my collection. If you 
need further help contact me off site at jimheck@...
                                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              From: 
  luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                              
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 5:02 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton Allegheny 
  2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                              
  

                                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              Jim, how do I access your album?
                                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              
  
                                                                                                                                                                                              In a message dated 10/1/2009 6:48:54 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimheck@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                              
  


                                                                                                                                                                                              
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                              
    
                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                              
    
                                                                                                                                                                                               Thanks for the pictures. They look great.I will look more closely 
    at them . If interested in mine go to photos. I think the 3rd or 4th 
    page.  Album name ( among the others) is Jim Heckard's 
    Photos    Pictures JH005-006-007-008
                                                                                                                                                                                              
    
                                                                                                                                                                                              
      
                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                              
      
                                                                                                                                                                                              From: 
      luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                              
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 9:07 
      PM
                                                                                                                                                                                              
      
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton 
      Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                              
      

                                                                                                                                                                                              
      
                                                                                                                                                                                              No luck in finding a mis-identified 2-6-6-6 on eBay. I could be 
      losing my eyesight in any case. Here are the pics of my two Winton 
      Alleghenies. 
                                                                                                                                                                                              
      
                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                              
      
                                                                                                                                                                                              
      
                                                                                                                                                                                              In a message dated 10/1/2009 5:40:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimheck@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                              
      


                                                                                                                                                                                              
        
                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                              
        
                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                              
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                I have not found the Winton 
        2-6-6-6 that Denny mentioned either. Perhaps an Ebay number would help. 
        I'm assuming that Denny was able to spot a Winton Allegheny engine that 
        was totally mislabeled. I don't want to buy it but would 
        like to look at it to compare to mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                              
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                              
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Denny's narrative is very 
        informative. He has a more complete version which I copied and keep in 
        my files. You are right when you mention they are very hard to complete 
        but Denny is also right that the number successfully completed is 
        probably small. Most are in an uncompleted state.
                                                                                                                                                                                              
        
                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                              
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                 I am lucky to have 
        totally completed one of the first versions. It is unpainted but is in 
        an album here.
                                                                                                                                                                                              
        
                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                              
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                 I also have a completed and 
        painted the Winton version of the Berkshire which I am very 
        proud of. Also in an album. It was not very easy to complete either. 
        Mine is the spring drive type. I however have a decent running 
        engine which can pull a number of cars. Why MY coil spring belt / 
        pulley type engine runs better I don't know. I do know you must 
        double wind the coil spring as shown on the plans to get it to run at 
        all.
                                                                                                                                                                                              
        
                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                              
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Your are very lucky to have 
        and completed so many Winton engines (Both types)  Would love to 
        see pictures of them all.
                                                                                                                                                                                              
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                              
        
                                                                                                                                                                                              
          
                                                                                                                                                                                              ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                              
          
                                                                                                                                                                                              From: 
          luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                              
          
          
                                                                                                                                                                                              Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 
          7:43 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                              
          
                                                                                                                                                                                              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton 
          Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                              
          

                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                              
          
                                                                                                                                                                                              
          
                                                                                                                                                                                              There is a Winton Allegheny on eBay? I have not been able to 
          locate it in any category--including completed transactions. The only 
          Winton piece I can find is that tender that goes with a Winton 
          Berkshire. Perhaps someone listed a 2-6-6-6 for a short while and 
          withdrew it? Interesting that Dan remarks that very few of the first 
          versions were ever built to operate in "any reliable fashion." I might 
          mention that I have two of them that are totally complete with 
          original parts (except for one that has flexible material used as 
          couplings in the drive train instead of the original spring-type 
          material). One is painted and the other isn't. They both operate with 
          good reliability but certainly would require broad curves. I will 
          include photos on line if anyone is interested. They were extremely 
          difficult to build correctly as you might guess. The painted one is 
          gorgeous and has some added details. I also have at least one 
          Winton Berkshire that runs very well (not painted) and another that is 
          complete but does not run well due to the fact that the pulley/spring 
          belts were a failure in design. The successful one is gear driven and 
          a later version. I might add that the Berkshire is actually American 
          OO gauge that runs on HO track and reflects the jockeying of gauges of 
          the times. I find Dan's description of the Winton efforts very 
          informative. I might add too that I have a typewritten letter (done on 
          the old ribbon style typewriter that needed a new ribbon) that is 
          signed by Winton Brown himself and apologizing and explaining to a 
          customer why he couldn't deliver all the items he ordered. I believe 
          it's dated sometime in April of 1951.
                                                                                                                                                                                              
          
                                                                                                                                                                                              Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                              
          
                                                                                                                                                                                              Doylestown, PA
                                                                                                                                                                                              
          
                                                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                              
          
                                                                                                                                                                                              
          
                                                                                                                                                                                              In a message dated 10/1/2009 3:49:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
          danspach@macnexus. org writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                              
          
                                                                                                                                                                                              The Allegheny 2-6-6-6 that is on eBay is a Winton, 
            version 1. It is  
                                                                                                                                                                                              unusually complete, and judging from 
            reading the Winton literature of  
                                                                                                                                                                                              the times,  it is 
            possible that toward the end of production of this  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                              version, Winton improved the appearance of drivers as compared 
            to  
                                                                                                                                                                                              their extremely crude early "Necco Wafer" 
            drivers.

                                                                                                                                                                                              The first version Winton 2-6-6-6 was all machinings 
            and was produced  
                                                                                                                                                                                              c. 1948-54 or so. There were no cast 
            pieces (and was so advertised),  
                                                                                                                                                                                              and although dimensionally 
            probably fairly accurate, the detailing and  
                                                                                                                                                                                              finish were 
            very crude, and there was virtually no way to really save  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                              the day in these regards. Even the drive wheels were basic 
            disc  
                                                                                                                                                                                              turnings. Very few were ever successfully built to 
            actually operate in  
                                                                                                                                                                                              any reliable fashion. This version was 
            last advertised in March 1953.

                                                                                                                                                                                              The second version Winton 
            2-6-6-6 was made up of all investment brass  
                                                                                                                                                                                              castings, a 
            far different, and completely separate animal bearing no  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                              relationship to the earlier model except for prototype, the 
            large  
                                                                                                                                                                                              castings proprietary to Winton, the multitudinous 
            small castings  
                                                                                                                                                                                              apparently purchased from Budd (a supplier 
            purchased by Kemtron). This  
                                                                                                                                                                                              production was underway in 
            some fashion in 1955, and although never  
                                                                                                                                                                                              specifically 
            *advertised* under the Winton name (to my knowledge) , at  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                              least one of these very complex locomotives under the 
            Winton  
                                                                                                                                                                                              imprimatur was completed to a very high level of 
            quality and finish in  
                                                                                                                                                                                              c. 1957-9.

                                                                                                                                                                                              All, Winton v1., 
            Winton v2, and MaRa  were all produced by Winton  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                              Brown in his Danville, CA location.  At the time between 
            the end of  
                                                                                                                                                                                              the first production version and the second, 
            Winton gained employment  
                                                                                                                                                                                              at the U of California, which 
            quite reasonable may well have  
                                                                                                                                                                                              influenced just how he 
            spent his time.

                                                                                                                                                                                              The subsequent "MaRa" version was and is the 
            self-same above second- 
                                                                                                                                                                                              version Winton marketed under the MaRa 
            name beginning March 1961, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                              the locomotive model photo 
            depicted in their advertisements  is of the  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                              pre-MaRa  finished Winton model noted just above. The last 
            MaRa  
                                                                                                                                                                                              advertisement for this locomotive was in February 
            1963, following  
                                                                                                                                                                                              which it disappeared from the market 
            altogether.

                                                                                                                                                                                              The finished MaRa version of this Winton 
            2-6-6-6  has to be one of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                              very finest HO 
            locomotive models ever produced. IMHO, the earlier  
                                                                                                                                                                                              model 
            is a collector's curiosity at best.

                                                                                                                                                                                              This subject has been 
            discussed on this list in some detail just this  
                                                                                                                                                                                              past year 
            that should answer most of the questions posed.  See 
            Files  
                                                                                                                                                                                              under "Winton" for photos.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                              Denny 
            S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                              Sacramento

                                                                                                                                                                                              Denny S.  Anspach 
            MD
                                                                                                                                                                                              Sacramento







                                                                                                                                                                                              ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                                                                                                                                                                              Yahoo! 
            Groups Links

                                                                                                                                                                                              <*> To visit your group on the web, go 
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11926
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 10/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                                              
						Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                                              
				
                                                                                                                                                                                              
					
                                                                                                                                                                                              
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                              
								
                                                                                                                                                                                              


                                                                                                                                                                                              Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 


                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim, that's one huge collection! My only problem with my collection now 
that I'm getting older is what will become of it someday. There should be some 
kind of central museum that will take everyone's rare items as they pass on or 
something. . . .
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                In a message dated 10/2/2009 2:47:18 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
jimheck@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   Go into the yahoo vintage HO web site main page.To the left 
  look for photos. Click and all permanent albums should come 
  up.  I think my albums would be on the 3rd or 4th page. Go to 
  the one that says Jim Heckard's Photos  The top picture on this 
  album is a Pennsy Trackside Specialties Electric. Click on it to open the 
  album and just go to the picture numbers I cited. JH005  JH006  
  JH007 and JH008
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you can't find it I will send pictures direct to you if you 
  give me your Email address to send them. I'm not very computer literate 
  to even make my own albums and others were creating them for me so you will 
  find a number of albums with my name on them. These are part of my collection. 
  If you need further help contact me off site at jimheck@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: 
    luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 5:02 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton 
    Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim, how do I access your album?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                In a message dated 10/1/2009 6:48:54 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimheck@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    


                                                                                                                                                                                                
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Thanks for the pictures. They look great.I will look more 
      closely at them . If interested in mine go to photos. I think the 3rd or 
      4th page.  Album name ( among the others) is Jim Heckard's 
      Photos    Pictures JH005-006-007-008
                                                                                                                                                                                                
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: 
        luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 
        9:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton 
        Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        

                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                No luck in finding a mis-identified 2-6-6-6 on eBay. I could be 
        losing my eyesight in any case. Here are the pics of my two Winton 
        Alleghenies. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                In a message dated 10/1/2009 5:40:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimheck@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        


                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                  I have not found the Winton 
          2-6-6-6 that Denny mentioned either. Perhaps an Ebay number would 
          help. I'm assuming that Denny was able to spot a Winton Allegheny 
          engine that was totally mislabeled. I don't want to buy it 
          but would like to look at it to compare to 
mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   Denny's narrative is very 
          informative. He has a more complete version which I copied and keep in 
          my files. You are right when you mention they are very hard to 
          complete but Denny is also right that the number successfully 
          completed is probably small. Most are in an uncompleted 
          state.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   I am lucky to have 
          totally completed one of the first versions. It is unpainted but is in 
          an album here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   I also have a completed and 
          painted the Winton version of the Berkshire which I am very 
          proud of. Also in an album. It was not very easy to complete either. 
          Mine is the spring drive type. I however have a decent running 
          engine which can pull a number of cars. Why MY coil spring belt / 
          pulley type engine runs better I don't know. I do know you must 
          double wind the coil spring as shown on the plans to get it to run at 
          all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   Your are very lucky to have 
          and completed so many Winton engines (Both types)  Would love to 
          see pictures of them all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: 
            luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, October 01, 
            2009 7:43 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton 
            Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                There is a Winton Allegheny on eBay? I have not been able to 
            locate it in any category--including completed transactions. The 
            only Winton piece I can find is that tender that goes with a 
            Winton Berkshire. Perhaps someone listed a 2-6-6-6 for a short while 
            and withdrew it? Interesting that Dan remarks that very few of the 
            first versions were ever built to operate in "any reliable fashion." 
            I might mention that I have two of them that are totally complete 
            with original parts (except for one that has flexible material used 
            as couplings in the drive train instead of the original spring-type 
            material). One is painted and the other isn't. They both operate 
            with good reliability but certainly would require broad curves. I 
            will include photos on line if anyone is interested. They were 
            extremely difficult to build correctly as you might guess. The 
            painted one is gorgeous and has some added details. I also have 
            at least one Winton Berkshire that runs very well (not painted) and 
            another that is complete but does not run well due to the fact that 
            the pulley/spring belts were a failure in design. The successful one 
            is gear driven and a later version. I might add that the Berkshire 
            is actually American OO gauge that runs on HO track and reflects the 
            jockeying of gauges of the times. I find Dan's description of the 
            Winton efforts very informative. I might add too that I have a 
            typewritten letter (done on the old ribbon style typewriter that 
            needed a new ribbon) that is signed by Winton Brown himself and 
            apologizing and explaining to a customer why he couldn't deliver all 
            the items he ordered. I believe it's dated sometime in April of 
            1951.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                Doylestown, PA
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                In a message dated 10/1/2009 3:49:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight 
            Time, danspach@macnexus. org writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                The Allegheny 2-6-6-6 that is on eBay is a Winton, 
              version 1. It is  
                                                                                                                                                                                                unusually complete, and judging from 
              reading the Winton literature of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                the times,  it is 
              possible that toward the end of production of this  
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                version, Winton improved the appearance of drivers as compared 
              to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                their extremely crude early "Necco Wafer" 
              drivers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                The first version Winton 2-6-6-6 was all 
              machinings and was produced  
                                                                                                                                                                                                c. 1948-54 or so. There were 
              no cast pieces (and was so advertised),  
                                                                                                                                                                                                and although 
              dimensionally probably fairly accurate, the detailing and  
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                finish were very crude, and there was virtually no way to 
              really save  
                                                                                                                                                                                                the day in these regards. Even the drive 
              wheels were basic disc  
                                                                                                                                                                                                turnings. Very few were ever 
              successfully built to actually operate in  
                                                                                                                                                                                                any reliable 
              fashion. This version was last advertised in March 
              1953.

                                                                                                                                                                                                The second version Winton 2-6-6-6 was made up of all 
              investment brass  
                                                                                                                                                                                                castings, a far different, and 
              completely separate animal bearing no  
                                                                                                                                                                                                relationship to 
              the earlier model except for prototype, the large  
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                castings proprietary to Winton, the multitudinous small 
              castings  
                                                                                                                                                                                                apparently purchased from Budd (a supplier 
              purchased by Kemtron). This  
                                                                                                                                                                                                production was underway in 
              some fashion in 1955, and although never  
                                                                                                                                                                                                specifically 
              *advertised* under the Winton name (to my knowledge) , at  
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                least one of these very complex locomotives under the 
              Winton  
                                                                                                                                                                                                imprimatur was completed to a very high level of 
              quality and finish in  
                                                                                                                                                                                                c. 1957-9.

                                                                                                                                                                                                All, Winton v1., 
              Winton v2, and MaRa  were all produced by Winton  
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                Brown in his Danville, CA location.  At the time between 
              the end of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                the first production version and the second, 
              Winton gained employment  
                                                                                                                                                                                                at the U of California, which 
              quite reasonable may well have  
                                                                                                                                                                                                influenced just how he 
              spent his time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                The subsequent "MaRa" version was and is 
              the self-same above second- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                version Winton marketed under the 
              MaRa name beginning March 1961, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                the locomotive model 
              photo depicted in their advertisements  is of the  
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                pre-MaRa  finished Winton model noted just above. The 
              last MaRa  
                                                                                                                                                                                                advertisement for this locomotive was in 
              February 1963, following  
                                                                                                                                                                                                which it disappeared from the 
              market altogether.

                                                                                                                                                                                                The finished MaRa version of this Winton 
              2-6-6-6  has to be one of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                very finest HO 
              locomotive models ever produced. IMHO, the earlier  
                                                                                                                                                                                                model 
              is a collector's curiosity at best.

                                                                                                                                                                                                This subject has been 
              discussed on this list in some detail just this  
                                                                                                                                                                                                past 
              year that should answer most of the questions posed.  See 
              Files  
                                                                                                                                                                                                under "Winton" for 
              photos.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                                Denny S.  Anspach 
              MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sacramento

                                                                                                                                                                                                Denny S.  Anspach 
              MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sacramento







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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11927
						From: Russ Shiel
						Date: 10/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Great Decals!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                H'lo all...a quick question...has anyone contacted Bill Mosteller at Great Decals! lately...I have had several bounces from his e-mail, and Gerold in Austria tried and also had a bounce.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I was looking for a set of VGN EL-3A decals...if anyone has a source, other than Great Decals! I would be most grateful...I have a pair of EL-3A's resplendent in olive green with GN Goats...moral...look closely before you buy, don't just see the Goat! They ARE nicely done, but.... wrong?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Chrs! Russ
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11928
						From: trainliker
						Date: 10/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                There is such a museum.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
It is the NMRA Howell Day museum.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://www.nmra.com/howellday/
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I think another alternative is to make sure items will be disposed of by a trusted model railroad savvy person.  So things would at least find their way into the hands of someone knowledgeable and not wind up selling for 25 cents at a garage sale for little Timmy to play with.  It is especially good to have everything listed in your estate papers so anyone can easily see the value in things so they don't get tossed into a box as "old toys".
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
In a way, I often think we are more a bunch of small museum curators perhaps more than really owners of this stuff.  I have a fairly collectible car I feel that way about.  I am just taking care of it for now until the next curator takes over.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
And like that car, the average age of owners of vintage trains of all types is well beyond spring chicken age.  The majority of stuff will likely change hands in the next 15 or 20 years for one reason or another.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Jim, that's one huge collection! My only problem with my collection now  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> that I'm getting older is what will become of it someday. There should be some 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  kind of central museum that will take everyone's rare items as they pass 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> on or  something. . . .
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> In a message dated 10/2/2009 2:47:18 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> jimheck@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>    Go into the yahoo vintage HO web site main page.To the left  look for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> photos. Click and all permanent albums should come  up.  I think my albums 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> would be on the 3rd or 4th page. Go to  the one that says Jim Heckard's Photos  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The top picture on this  album is a Pennsy Trackside Specialties Electric. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Click on it to open the  album and just go to the picture numbers I cited. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> JH005  JH006   JH007 and JH008
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   If you can't find it I will send pictures direct to you if you  give me 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> your Email address to send them. I'm not very computer literate  to even make 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> my own albums and others were creating them for me so you will  find a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> number of albums with my name on them. These are part of my collection.  If you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> need further help contact me off site at _jimheck@..._ 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> (mailto:jimheck@...) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                                                                         Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> From:  _luvprr@..._ (mailto:luvprr@...)  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> To: _vintageHO@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com)  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 5:02  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton  Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Jim, how do I access your album?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> In a message dated 10/1/2009 6:48:54 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> _jimheck@..._ (mailto:jimheck@...)  writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  Thanks for the pictures. They look great.I will look more  closely at them 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> . If interested in mine go to photos. I think the 3rd or  4th page.  Album 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> name ( among the others) is Jim Heckard's  Photos    Pictures 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> JH005-006-007-008
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> From:  _luvprr@..._ (mailto:luvprr@...)  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> To: _vintageHO@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com)   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009  9:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton  Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> No luck in finding a mis-identified 2-6-6-6 on eBay. I could be  losing my 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> eyesight in any case. Here are the pics of my two Winton  Alleghenies. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> In a message dated 10/1/2009 5:40:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> _jimheck@..._ (mailto:jimheck@...)  writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>      I have not found the Winton  2-6-6-6 that Denny mentioned either. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Perhaps an Ebay number would  help. I'm assuming that Denny was able to spot a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Winton Allegheny  engine that was totally mislabeled. I don't want to buy it  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> but would like to look at it to compare to  mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>    Denny's narrative is very  informative. He has a more complete version 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> which I copied and keep in  my files. You are right when you mention they are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> very hard to  complete but Denny is also right that the number successfully 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  completed is probably small. Most are in an uncompleted  state.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>    I am lucky to have  totally completed one of the first versions. It is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> unpainted but is in  an album here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>    I also have a completed and  painted the Winton version of the Berkshire 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> which I am very  proud of. Also in an album. It was not very easy to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> complete either.  Mine is the spring drive type. I however have a decent running  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> engine which can pull a number of cars. Why MY coil spring belt /  pulley 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> type engine runs better I don't know. I do know you must  double wind the coil 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> spring as shown on the plans to get it to run at  all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>    Your are very lucky to have  and completed so many Winton engines (Both 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> types)  Would love to  see pictures of them all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> From:  _luvprr@..._ (mailto:luvprr@...)  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> To: _vintageHO@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com)   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Sent: Thursday, October 01,  2009 7:43 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton  Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> There is a Winton Allegheny on eBay? I have not been able to  locate it in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> any category--including completed transactions. The  only Winton piece I can 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> find is that tender that goes with a  Winton Berkshire. Perhaps someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> listed a 2-6-6-6 for a short while  and withdrew it? Interesting that Dan 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> remarks that very few of the  first versions were ever built to operate in "any 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> reliable fashion."  I might mention that I have two of them that are totally 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> complete  with original parts (except for one that has flexible material 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> used  as couplings in the drive train instead of the original spring-type  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> material). One is painted and the other isn't. They both operate  with good 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> reliability but certainly would require broad curves. I  will include photos on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> line if anyone is interested. They were  extremely difficult to build 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> correctly as you might guess. The  painted one is gorgeous and has some added 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> details. I also have  at least one Winton Berkshire that runs very well (not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> painted) and  another that is complete but does not run well due to the fact 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> that  the pulley/spring belts were a failure in design. The successful one  is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> gear driven and a later version. I might add that the Berkshire  is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> actually American OO gauge that runs on HO track and reflects the  jockeying of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> gauges of the times. I find Dan's description of the  Winton efforts very 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> informative. I might add too that I have a  typewritten letter (done on the old 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> ribbon style typewriter that  needed a new ribbon) that is signed by Winton 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Brown himself and  apologizing and explaining to a customer why he couldn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> deliver all  the items he ordered. I believe it's dated sometime in April of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 1951.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Doylestown, PA
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> In a message dated 10/1/2009 3:49:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight  Time, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> danspach@... a messag
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The Allegheny 2-6-6-6 that is on eBay is a Winton,  version 1. It is  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> unusually complete, and judging from  reading the Winton literature of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> the times,  it is  possible that toward the end of production of this   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> version, Winton improved the appearance of drivers as compared  to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> their extremely crude early "Necco Wafer"  drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The first version Winton 2-6-6-6 was all  machinings and was produced  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> c. 1948-54 or so. There were  no cast pieces (and was so advertised),  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> and although  dimensionally probably fairly accurate, the detailing and   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> finish were very crude, and there was virtually no way to  really save  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> the day in these regards. Even the drive  wheels were basic disc  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> turnings. Very few were ever  successfully built to actually operate in  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> any reliable  fashion. This version was last advertised in March  1953.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The second version Winton 2-6-6-6 was made up of all  investment brass  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> castings, a far different, and  completely separate animal bearing no  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> relationship to  the earlier model except for prototype, the large   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> castings proprietary to Winton, the multitudinous small  castings  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> apparently purchased from Budd (a supplier  purchased by Kemtron). This  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> production was underway in  some fashion in 1955, and although never  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> specifically  *advertised* under the Winton name (to my knowledge) , at   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> least one of these very complex locomotives under the  Winton  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> imprimatur was completed to a very high level of  quality and finish in  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> c. 1957-9.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> All, Winton v1.,  Winton v2, and MaRa  were all produced by Winton   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Brown in his Danville, CA location.  At the time between  the end of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> the first production version and the second,  Winton gained employment  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> at the U of California, which  quite reasonable may well have  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> influenced just how he  spent his time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The subsequent "MaRa" version was and is  the self-same above second- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> version Winton marketed under the  MaRa name beginning March 1961, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> the locomotive model  photo depicted in their advertisements  is of the   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> pre-MaRa  finished Winton model noted just above. The  last MaRa  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> advertisement for this locomotive was in  February 1963, following  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> which it disappeared from the  market altogether.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The finished MaRa version of this Winton  2-6-6-6  has to be one of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> very finest HO  locomotive models ever produced. IMHO, the earlier  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> model  is a collector's curiosity at best.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> This subject has been  discussed on this list in some detail just this  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> past  year that should answer most of the questions posed.  See  Files  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> under "Winton" for  photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Denny S.  Anspach  MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Denny S.  Anspach  MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Yahoo!  Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11929
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 10/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I have thought about what happens to my antique trains when I reach the Great Hobby Shop In The Sky.

                                                                                                                                                                                                I am thinking seriously of leaving them in a will, to the Illinois Railway Museum, and having them put the trains on display or something.

                                                                                                                                                                                                As it is, as I am only 25, a friend of mine, who is about 90, has me in his will to receive all of his old railroad stuff (Mostly real railroad stuff), as well as his WWII 20" records from NBC (yes, 20" record platters- they recorded the show on them as the show was going on. My other passion is prewar/early postwar big band era music, especially the old 78 RPMs).

                                                                                                                                                                                                I hope to have at least a half century left in me, and most of my trains will be past the centenary mark by then. So I have time to figure this out.

                                                                                                                                                                                                -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- On Fri, 10/2/09, luvprr@...
 <luvprr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                From: luvprr@... <luvprr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Friday, October 2, 2009, 6:15 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim, that's one huge collection! My only problem with my collection now 
that I'm getting older is what will become of it someday. There should be some 
kind of central museum that will take everyone's rare items as they pass on or 
something. . . .
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                In a message dated 10/2/2009 2:47:18 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
jimheck@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   Go into the yahoo vintage HO web site main page.To the left 
  look for photos. Click and all permanent albums should come 
  up.  I think my albums would be on the 3rd or 4th page. Go to 
  the one that says Jim Heckard's Photos  The top picture on this 
  album is a Pennsy Trackside Specialties Electric. Click on it to open the 
  album and just go to the picture numbers I cited. JH005  JH006  
  JH007 and JH008
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you can't find it I will send pictures direct to you if you 
  give me your Email address to send them. I'm not very computer literate 
  to even make my own albums and others were creating them for me so you will 
  find a number of albums with my name on them. These are part of my collection. 
  If you need further help contact me off site at jimheck@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: 
    luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 5:02 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton 
    Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim, how do I access your album?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                In a message dated 10/1/2009 6:48:54 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimheck@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    


                                                                                                                                                                                                
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                 Thanks for the pictures. They look great.I will look more 
      closely at them . If interested in mine go to photos. I think the 3rd or 
      4th page.  Album name ( among the others) is Jim Heckard's 
      Photos    Pictures JH005-006-007-008
                                                                                                                                                                                                
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: 
        luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 
        9:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton 
        Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        

                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                No luck in finding a mis-identified 2-6-6-6 on eBay. I could be 
        losing my eyesight in any case. Here are the pics of my two Winton 
        Alleghenies. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                In a message dated 10/1/2009 5:40:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimheck@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        


                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                  I have not found the Winton 
          2-6-6-6 that Denny mentioned either. Perhaps an Ebay number would 
          help. I'm assuming that Denny was able to spot a Winton Allegheny 
          engine that was totally mislabeled. I don't want to buy it 
          but would like to look at it to compare to 
mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   Denny's narrative is very 
          informative. He has a more complete version which I copied and keep in 
          my files. You are right when you mention they are very hard to 
          complete but Denny is also right that the number successfully 
          completed is probably small. Most are in an uncompleted 
          state.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   I am lucky to have 
          totally completed one of the first versions. It is unpainted but is in 
          an album here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   I also have a completed and 
          painted the Winton version of the Berkshire which I am very 
          proud of. Also in an album. It was not very easy to complete either. 
          Mine is the spring drive type. I however have a decent running 
          engine which can pull a number of cars. Why MY coil spring belt / 
          pulley type engine runs better I don't know. I do know you must 
          double wind the coil spring as shown on the plans to get it to run at 
          all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   Your are very lucky to have 
          and completed so many Winton engines (Both types)  Would love to 
          see pictures of them all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: 
            luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, October 01, 
            2009 7:43 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton 
            Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                There is a Winton Allegheny on eBay? I have not been able to 
            locate it in any category--including completed transactions. The 
            only Winton piece I can find is that tender that goes with a 
            Winton Berkshire. Perhaps someone listed a 2-6-6-6 for a short while 
            and withdrew it? Interesting that Dan remarks that very few of the 
            first versions were ever built to operate in "any reliable fashion." 
            I might mention that I have two of them that are totally complete 
            with original parts (except for one that has flexible material used 
            as couplings in the drive train instead of the original spring-type 
            material). One is painted and the other isn't. They both operate 
            with good reliability but certainly would require broad curves. I 
            will include photos on line if anyone is interested. They were 
            extremely difficult to build correctly as you might guess. The 
            painted one is gorgeous and has some added details. I also have 
            at least one Winton Berkshire that runs very well (not painted) and 
            another that is complete but does not run well due to the fact that 
            the pulley/spring belts were a failure in design. The successful one 
            is gear driven and a later version. I might add that the Berkshire 
            is actually American OO gauge that runs on HO track and reflects the 
            jockeying of gauges of the times. I find Dan's description of the 
            Winton efforts very informative. I might add too that I have a 
            typewritten letter (done on the old ribbon style typewriter that 
            needed a new ribbon) that is signed by Winton Brown himself and 
            apologizing and explaining to a customer why he couldn't deliver all 
            the items he ordered. I believe it's dated sometime in April of 
            1951.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                Doylestown, PA
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                In a message dated 10/1/2009 3:49:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight 
            Time, danspach@macnexus. org writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                The Allegheny 2-6-6-6 that is on eBay is a Winton, 
              version 1. It is  
                                                                                                                                                                                                unusually complete, and judging from 
              reading the Winton literature of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                the times,  it is 
              possible that toward the end of production of this  
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                version, Winton improved the appearance of drivers as compared 
              to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                their extremely crude early "Necco Wafer" 
              drivers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                The first version Winton 2-6-6-6 was all 
              machinings and was produced  
                                                                                                                                                                                                c. 1948-54 or so. There were 
              no cast pieces (and was so advertised),  
                                                                                                                                                                                                and although 
              dimensionally probably fairly accurate, the detailing and  
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                finish were very crude, and there was virtually no way to 
              really save  
                                                                                                                                                                                                the day in these regards. Even the drive 
              wheels were basic disc  
                                                                                                                                                                                                turnings. Very few were ever 
              successfully built to actually operate in  
                                                                                                                                                                                                any reliable 
              fashion. This version was last advertised in March 
              1953.

                                                                                                                                                                                                The second version Winton 2-6-6-6 was made up of all 
              investment brass  
                                                                                                                                                                                                castings, a far different, and 
              completely separate animal bearing no  
                                                                                                                                                                                                relationship to 
              the earlier model except for prototype, the large  
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                castings proprietary to Winton, the multitudinous small 
              castings  
                                                                                                                                                                                                apparently purchased from Budd (a supplier 
              purchased by Kemtron). This  
                                                                                                                                                                                                production was underway in 
              some fashion in 1955, and although never  
                                                                                                                                                                                                specifically 
              *advertised* under the Winton name (to my knowledge) , at  
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                least one of these very complex locomotives under the 
              Winton  
                                                                                                                                                                                                imprimatur was completed to a very high level of 
              quality and finish in  
                                                                                                                                                                                                c. 1957-9.

                                                                                                                                                                                                All, Winton v1., 
              Winton v2, and MaRa  were all produced by Winton  
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                Brown in his Danville, CA location.  At the time between 
              the end of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                the first production version and the second, 
              Winton gained employment  
                                                                                                                                                                                                at the U of California, which 
              quite reasonable may well have  
                                                                                                                                                                                                influenced just how he 
              spent his time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                The subsequent "MaRa" version was and is 
              the self-same above second- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                version Winton marketed under the 
              MaRa name beginning March 1961, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                the locomotive model 
              photo depicted in their advertisements  is of the  
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                pre-MaRa  finished Winton model noted just above. The 
              last MaRa  
                                                                                                                                                                                                advertisement for this locomotive was in 
              February 1963, following  
                                                                                                                                                                                                which it disappeared from the 
              market altogether.

                                                                                                                                                                                                The finished MaRa version of this Winton 
              2-6-6-6  has to be one of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                very finest HO 
              locomotive models ever produced. IMHO, the earlier  
                                                                                                                                                                                                model 
              is a collector's curiosity at best.

                                                                                                                                                                                                This subject has been 
              discussed on this list in some detail just this  
                                                                                                                                                                                                past 
              year that should answer most of the questions posed.  See 
              Files  
                                                                                                                                                                                                under "Winton" for 
              photos.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                                Denny S.  Anspach 
              MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sacramento

                                                                                                                                                                                                Denny S.  Anspach 
              MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sacramento







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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11930
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Winton 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                         
I started a new thread about what we were discussing about Winton 
Alleghenys and what to do with our collections 
when we are gone as the old one was getting very long.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I wish I could 
afford to pass my collection on to a museum like the NMRA when I leave this 
world. However it is not in the cards. I have two children who I intend to give 
the collection to. What they do with it will be their decision.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I will pass along a story 
you and others might enjoy. I started collecting HO in 1958 before the children 
were born. They both grew up with the collection and my old layout in the house. 
Neither the daughter nor the son showed much interest except at Christmas 
time. When I finally made mention that I 
intended to give them the collection I was told "What would we do with trains". 
I informed them what kind of value  ( at least $45,000 for 
everything and probably a lot more ) and their interest peaked. Now 
they want to know the most valuable and have started to divide what each 
wants. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have always kept pretty 
good records and an approximate price range for fire and theft. Since most are 
considered irreplaceable my home owners insurance will not cover them. I have to 
have a special policy that requires a updated (new items) video each year and 
paperwork what they are. I pity the poor fool who 
would try to break into where they are as they are well 
protected.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I live in Shenandoah, Schuylkill 
County,  about  2 hours northwest from you. This museum always open 
for other people that might be interested in viewing the collection. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11931
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 10/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Great Decals!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Russ Shiel wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> H'lo all...a quick question...has anyone contacted Bill Mosteller at 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Great Decals! lately...I have had several bounces from his e-mail, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Gerold in Austria tried and also had a bounce.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I was looking for a set of VGN EL-3A decals...if anyone has a source, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> other than Great Decals! I would be most grateful...I have a pair of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> EL-3A's resplendent in olive green with GN Goats...moral...look 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> closely before you buy, don't just see the Goat! They ARE nicely done, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> but.... wrong?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Champ has VGN electric decals - they might be still available - but I am 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
not really sure for which type they are intended, and it seems they dont 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
fit exactly for this type, maybe they were intended for an EL-C ... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
there was another company ( name escaped me) that did EL-3c decals  but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
they are long gone, and Bill's are best anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 > .
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11932
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Great Decals!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Russ S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Checked my VGN EL-1A box to see if I had purchased an extra set for my single EL-1A as I sometimes do, but not that time.  Hopefully Bill's email is simply out of order, might give a try contacting another decal man to see if he has any information or even a note to Bill in the mail? I thought I saw he was on line not too long a period ago, but could be mistaken, I suppose.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Those VGN EL-3A's are facinating locomotives in their own right and mesmerizing to watch with their three pairs of massive side rods pounding away. But I guess a disappointment if one expected GN iron underneath the paint!  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Please let us know if you find anything out about Bill's email status.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> H'lo all...a quick question...has anyone contacted Bill Mosteller at Great Decals! lately...I have had several bounces from his e-mail, and Gerold in Austria tried and also had a bounce.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I was looking for a set of VGN EL-3A decals...if anyone has a source, other than Great Decals! I would be most grateful...I have a pair of EL-3A's resplendent in olive green with GN Goats...moral...look closely before you buy, don't just see the Goat! They ARE nicely done, but.... wrong?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Chrs! Russ
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>       __________________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Get more done like never before with Yahoo!7 Mail.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Learn more: http://au.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11933
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Chuck K,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments.  And advice.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainliker" <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> There is such a museum.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> It is the NMRA Howell Day museum.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://www.nmra.com/howellday/
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I think another alternative is to make sure items will be disposed of by a trusted model railroad savvy person.  So things would at least find their way into the hands of someone knowledgeable and not wind up selling for 25 cents at a garage sale for little Timmy to play with.  It is especially good to have everything listed in your estate papers so anyone can easily see the value in things so they don't get tossed into a box as "old toys".
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> In a way, I often think we are more a bunch of small museum curators perhaps more than really owners of this stuff.  I have a fairly collectible car I feel that way about.  I am just taking care of it for now until the next curator takes over.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> And like that car, the average age of owners of vintage trains of all types is well beyond spring chicken age.  The majority of stuff will likely change hands in the next 15 or 20 years for one reason or another.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@ wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Jim, that's one huge collection! My only problem with my collection now  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > that I'm getting older is what will become of it someday. There should be some 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  kind of central museum that will take everyone's rare items as they pass 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > on or  something. . . .
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > In a message dated 10/2/2009 2:47:18 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > jimheck@ writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >    Go into the yahoo vintage HO web site main page.To the left  look for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > photos. Click and all permanent albums should come  up.  I think my albums 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > would be on the 3rd or 4th page. Go to  the one that says Jim Heckard's Photos  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > The top picture on this  album is a Pennsy Trackside Specialties Electric. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Click on it to open the  album and just go to the picture numbers I cited. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > JH005  JH006   JH007 and JH008
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >   If you can't find it I will send pictures direct to you if you  give me 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > your Email address to send them. I'm not very computer literate  to even make 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > my own albums and others were creating them for me so you will  find a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > number of albums with my name on them. These are part of my collection.  If you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > need further help contact me off site at _jimheck@_ 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > (mailto:jimheck@) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >                                                                         Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > From:  _luvprr@_ (mailto:luvprr@)  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > To: _vintageHO@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com)  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 5:02  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton  Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Jim, how do I access your album?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > In a message dated 10/1/2009 6:48:54 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > _jimheck@_ (mailto:jimheck@)  writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  Thanks for the pictures. They look great.I will look more  closely at them 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > . If interested in mine go to photos. I think the 3rd or  4th page.  Album 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > name ( among the others) is Jim Heckard's  Photos    Pictures 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > JH005-006-007-008
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > From:  _luvprr@_ (mailto:luvprr@)  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > To: _vintageHO@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com)   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009  9:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton  Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > No luck in finding a mis-identified 2-6-6-6 on eBay. I could be  losing my 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > eyesight in any case. Here are the pics of my two Winton  Alleghenies. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > In a message dated 10/1/2009 5:40:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > _jimheck@_ (mailto:jimheck@)  writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Hi Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >      I have not found the Winton  2-6-6-6 that Denny mentioned either. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Perhaps an Ebay number would  help. I'm assuming that Denny was able to spot a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Winton Allegheny  engine that was totally mislabeled. I don't want to buy it  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > but would like to look at it to compare to  mine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >    Denny's narrative is very  informative. He has a more complete version 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > which I copied and keep in  my files. You are right when you mention they are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > very hard to  complete but Denny is also right that the number successfully 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  completed is probably small. Most are in an uncompleted  state.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >    I am lucky to have  totally completed one of the first versions. It is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > unpainted but is in  an album here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >    I also have a completed and  painted the Winton version of the Berkshire 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > which I am very  proud of. Also in an album. It was not very easy to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > complete either.  Mine is the spring drive type. I however have a decent running  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > engine which can pull a number of cars. Why MY coil spring belt /  pulley 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > type engine runs better I don't know. I do know you must  double wind the coil 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > spring as shown on the plans to get it to run at  all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >    Your are very lucky to have  and completed so many Winton engines (Both 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > types)  Would love to  see pictures of them all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > From:  _luvprr@_ (mailto:luvprr@)  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > To: _vintageHO@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com)   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Sent: Thursday, October 01,  2009 7:43 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton  Allegheny 2-6-6-6
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > There is a Winton Allegheny on eBay? I have not been able to  locate it in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > any category--including completed transactions. The  only Winton piece I can 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > find is that tender that goes with a  Winton Berkshire. Perhaps someone 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > listed a 2-6-6-6 for a short while  and withdrew it? Interesting that Dan 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > remarks that very few of the  first versions were ever built to operate in "any 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > reliable fashion."  I might mention that I have two of them that are totally 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > complete  with original parts (except for one that has flexible material 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > used  as couplings in the drive train instead of the original spring-type  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > material). One is painted and the other isn't. They both operate  with good 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > reliability but certainly would require broad curves. I  will include photos on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > line if anyone is interested. They were  extremely difficult to build 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > correctly as you might guess. The  painted one is gorgeous and has some added 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > details. I also have  at least one Winton Berkshire that runs very well (not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > painted) and  another that is complete but does not run well due to the fact 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > that  the pulley/spring belts were a failure in design. The successful one  is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > gear driven and a later version. I might add that the Berkshire  is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > actually American OO gauge that runs on HO track and reflects the  jockeying of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > gauges of the times. I find Dan's description of the  Winton efforts very 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > informative. I might add too that I have a  typewritten letter (done on the old 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > ribbon style typewriter that  needed a new ribbon) that is signed by Winton 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Brown himself and  apologizing and explaining to a customer why he couldn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > deliver all  the items he ordered. I believe it's dated sometime in April of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 1951.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Doylestown, PA
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > In a message dated 10/1/2009 3:49:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight  Time, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > danspach@ a messag
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > The Allegheny 2-6-6-6 that is on eBay is a Winton,  version 1. It is  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > unusually complete, and judging from  reading the Winton literature of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > the times,  it is  possible that toward the end of production of this   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > version, Winton improved the appearance of drivers as compared  to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > their extremely crude early "Necco Wafer"  drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > The first version Winton 2-6-6-6 was all  machinings and was produced  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > c. 1948-54 or so. There were  no cast pieces (and was so advertised),  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > and although  dimensionally probably fairly accurate, the detailing and   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > finish were very crude, and there was virtually no way to  really save  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > the day in these regards. Even the drive  wheels were basic disc  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > turnings. Very few were ever  successfully built to actually operate in  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > any reliable  fashion. This version was last advertised in March  1953.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > The second version Winton 2-6-6-6 was made up of all  investment brass  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > castings, a far different, and  completely separate animal bearing no  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > relationship to  the earlier model except for prototype, the large   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > castings proprietary to Winton, the multitudinous small  castings  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > apparently purchased from Budd (a supplier  purchased by Kemtron). This  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > production was underway in  some fashion in 1955, and although never  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > specifically  *advertised* under the Winton name (to my knowledge) , at   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > least one of these very complex locomotives under the  Winton  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > imprimatur was completed to a very high level of  quality and finish in  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > c. 1957-9.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > All, Winton v1.,  Winton v2, and MaRa  were all produced by Winton   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Brown in his Danville, CA location.  At the time between  the end of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > the first production version and the second,  Winton gained employment  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > at the U of California, which  quite reasonable may well have  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > influenced just how he  spent his time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > The subsequent "MaRa" version was and is  the self-same above second- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > version Winton marketed under the  MaRa name beginning March 1961, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > the locomotive model  photo depicted in their advertisements  is of the   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > pre-MaRa  finished Winton model noted just above. The  last MaRa  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > advertisement for this locomotive was in  February 1963, following  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > which it disappeared from the  market altogether.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > The finished MaRa version of this Winton  2-6-6-6  has to be one of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > very finest HO  locomotive models ever produced. IMHO, the earlier  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > model  is a collector's curiosity at best.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > This subject has been  discussed on this list in some detail just this  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > past  year that should answer most of the questions posed.  See  Files  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > under "Winton" for  photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Denny S.  Anspach  MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Denny S.  Anspach  MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Yahoo!  Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11934
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                BINKLEY/LACONIA

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                               (Continued)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             By Ray Wetzel

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                KIT BOXES

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                There are five known (to the author) boxes for Binkley Kits.  The first is a dull-finish tan and brown paper-on-cardboard twp piece box.  The top is brown with a roughly outlined tan oval: "BINKLEY MODELS" in P.T. Barnum style lettering is printed in large letters, with their slogan "The Early Century Line" immediately underneath this.  The sides and one end are tan, with the other end half brown (with "BINKLEY MODELS" in oval) and half tan, with the kit number and description usually hand lettered.  Three lines of small ad wording appear on each side.  The size of this box is 7 5/8" x 3 3/16" x 1 1/2".

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The next box used was a two piece pink box with black printing.  This time, glossy paper was overlaid on the cardboard.  A large "BINKLEY" on top, covers the length of the box.  "BINKLEY MODELS" and "FOR THE EXACTING BUILDER IN H0 GAUGE" appears on the sides; a 4-8-4 and freight train (four cars and caboose) appear beneath this.  The label end contains the words "BINKELY MODELS," with the kit number and description printed beneath this.  The other end contains the same three lines of small ad wording as appears on the previous box's sides; "EXACT SCALE MODELS IN H0 GAUGE -- SPECIALLY PROCESSED LETTERED SIDES -- DETAILED AND PRECISION MADE PARTS."  This box is of the same dimensions as the previous box.

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The third box is a two piece box of plain white cardboard; no paper covering.  The only printing on this box appears on one end.  "BINKLEY MODELS" in red is printed in 1/4" high P.T. Barnum style lettering, the address beneath this.  The kit number and description in 1/8" high black lettering is beneath this, with "GOLDEN ERA KIT L/TRUCKS" in smaller letters below this.  Two thumbnotches are cut out of the sides of this box's top.  This identical box was used by Binkley also for some of the Laconia cars they continued to produce.  With these kits, the printing on the box end was a bit different.  "BINKELY MODELS" is printed in red in small 1/8" high letters (there is no mention of the word "Laconia").  The words "OLD TIME" are found under this in a large Circus style lettering.  "TRUSS ROD" appears directly below this with the address, then a row of stars.  The kit number (a Laconia catalog number) is printed in the lower left corner of the box end.  Several of these also have the Laconia catalog number hand-printed in the upper left-hand corner with a black marker, although it cannot be ascertained this was factory inscribed even though it seems to be.  The box measues 7 7/8" x 3 5/8" x 2".  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The fourth box is a two piece paper covered box; the box top having a grey "cheesecloth" pattern.  The only printing appears on one end.  "BINKLEY MODELS" is printed in 5/16" high red block letters.  "OLD TIME" is found below this, again in a Circus style lettering, with "TRUSS ROD" directly beneath this, all in red; there is no address.  The kit number and description are below this in black, then the words "GOLDEN ERA KIT L/TRUCKS."  This box measures 7 3/4" x 4" x 2".

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The last and much rarer Binkley box is a two piece glossy paper-on cardboard black box waith a large pink illustration of a boxcar on the top; identical configuration to the Laconia -- Stockton, CA production box, as described later on.  It appears to have been used primarily for some of the last (higher) catalog numbered kits.  Within this pink boxcar illustration, printed in black is the word "BINKLEY" on the left half of the box.  "H0 GAUGE CAR KIT * AN EXACT SCALE MODEL * GOLDEN ERA KITS * THE H0 MAIN LINE," in variuos size lettering (similar to the Laconia box, but with the addition of "GOLDEN ERA KITS") is found on the right side of the pink boxcar.  A large pink box appears beneath the boxcar with the words, "Authentic Car Kits of the Golden Era," plus the address -- Box 3706, Santa Monica, California 90404.  This address had not been seen in their ads.  "BINKLEY H0 GAUGE CAR KIT"  appears in pink on sides and ends.  The kit number and car identification found on one end is rubber-stamped within a pink boxcar silhouette.  Size of this box is 9 5/16" x 3 1/2" x 1 5/8" (identical in size to the more common Laconia -- Stockton, Cal. box.    

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                (To be continued)  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11935
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley boxes; Binkley Ringling Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Ray F.W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I do not have many Binkley kits, but can report a variation of the first box you listed, the tan and brown with rough oval on top.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
It is identical in all respects to the information listed, with the exception that ALL three lines of lettering on both sides are absent, plain tan as is one end.  The other end is same as listed; the contents description is rubber stamped or stencil stamped (not sure which exact process was actually used) in what I have thought 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
"typical" Binkley narrow lettering, "P-31 RINGLING BROS." on the top line, "ADVANCE PASS CAR" on the second.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Since this is a riveted steel-sheathed passenger type car, did Binkley box all their passenger car kits in the same style boxes? Were there any longer version boxes used, as the sides of this kit just fit with no room to spare?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
BTW, this steel-sheathed Ringling car kit is quite interesting with embossed, foil covered card sides, nicely pre-painted in "maroon with off-white" window band, decals for the Ringling Bros. lettering and with a wealth of Red Ball type castings including inner and outer ends with full width vestibules. Trucks are T-64 wood beam passenger trucks, factory assembled with Mantual wheelsets.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> BINKLEY/LACONIA
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                (Continued)
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                                                              By Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> KIT BOXES
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> There are five known (to the author) boxes for Binkley Kits.  The first is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> a dull-finish tan and brown paper-on-cardboard twp piece box.  The top is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> brown with a roughly outlined tan oval: "BINKLEY MODELS" in P.T. Barnum style 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> lettering is printed in large letters, with their slogan "The Early Century 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Line" immediately underneath this.  The sides and one end are tan, with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> other end half brown (with "BINKLEY MODELS" in oval) and half tan, with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> kit number and description usually hand lettered.  Three lines of small ad 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> wording appear on each side.  The size of this box is 7 5/8" x 3 3/16" x 1 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 1/2".
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The next box used was a two piece pink box with black printing.  This time, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> glossy paper was overlaid on the cardboard.  A large "BINKLEY" on top, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> covers the length of the box.  "BINKLEY MODELS" and "FOR THE EXACTING BUILDER IN 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> H0 GAUGE" appears on the sides; a 4-8-4 and freight train (four cars and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> caboose) appear beneath this.  The label end contains the words "BINKELY 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> MODELS," with the kit number and description printed beneath this.  The other end 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> contains the same three lines of small ad wording as appears on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> previous box's sides; "EXACT SCALE MODELS IN H0 GAUGE -- SPECIALLY PROCESSED 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> LETTERED SIDES -- DETAILED AND PRECISION MADE PARTS."  This box is of the same 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> dimensions as the previous box.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The third box is a two piece box of plain white cardboard; no paper 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> covering.  The only printing on this box appears on one end.  "BINKLEY MODELS" in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> red is printed in 1/4" high P.T. Barnum style lettering, the address beneath 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> this.  The kit number and description in 1/8" high black lettering is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> beneath this, with "GOLDEN ERA KIT L/TRUCKS" in smaller letters below this.  Two 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> thumbnotches are cut out of the sides of this box's top.  This identical box 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> was used by Binkley also for some of the Laconia cars they continued to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> produce.  With these kits, the printing on the box end was a bit different.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> "BINKELY MODELS" is printed in red in small 1/8" high letters (there is no 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> mention of the word "Laconia").  The words "OLD TIME" are found under this in a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> large Circus style lettering.  "TRUSS ROD" appears directly below this with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> the address, then a row of stars.  The kit number (a Laconia catalog number) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> is printed in the lower left corner of the box end.  Several of these also 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> have the Laconia catalog number hand-printed in the upper left-hand corner 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> with a black marker, although it cannot be ascertained this was factory 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> inscribed even though it seems to be.  The box measues 7 7/8" x 3 5/8" x 2".  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The fourth box is a two piece paper covered box; the box top having a grey 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> "cheesecloth" pattern.  The only printing appears on one end.  "BINKLEY 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> MODELS" is printed in 5/16" high red block letters.  "OLD TIME" is found below 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> this, again in a Circus style lettering, with "TRUSS ROD" directly beneath 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> this, all in red; there is no address.  The kit number and description are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> below this in black, then the words "GOLDEN ERA KIT L/TRUCKS."  This box 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> measures 7 3/4" x 4" x 2".
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The last and much rarer Binkley box is a two piece glossy paper-on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> cardboard black box waith a large pink illustration of a boxcar on the top; 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> identical configuration to the Laconia -- Stockton, CA production box, as described 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> later on.  It appears to have been used primarily for some of the last 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> (higher) catalog numbered kits.  Within this pink boxcar illustration, printed in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> black is the word "BINKLEY" on the left half of the box.  "H0 GAUGE CAR KIT 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> * AN EXACT SCALE MODEL * GOLDEN ERA KITS * THE H0 MAIN LINE," in variuos 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> size lettering (similar to the Laconia box, but with the addition of "GOLDEN 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> ERA KITS") is found on the right side of the pink boxcar.  A large pink box 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> appears beneath the boxcar with the words, "Authentic Car Kits of the Golden 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Era," plus the address -- Box 3706, Santa Monica, California 90404.  This 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> address had not been seen in their ads.  "BINKLEY H0 GAUGE CAR KIT"  appears 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> in pink on sides and ends.  The kit number and car identification found on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> one end is rubber-stamped within a pink boxcar silhouette.  Size of this box 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> is 9 5/16" x 3 1/2" x 1 5/8" (identical in size to the more common Laconia -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Stockton, Cal. box.    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> (To be continued)  Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11936
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley boxes; Binkley Ringling Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi W Jay W.,  Many many thanks for your input/addition of your P-31 Ringling Bros Advance Car box -- it's most appreciated.  I see now, that I should have clarified my kit box listings, stating that they only covered the freight car kits but didn't think of that when I was just now rewriting it from my original article.  Any other Binkley passenger car kit box descriptions would be appreciated here as well.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                To explain why I didn't include Binkley passenger car kit boxes in my original article is easy -- while I can enjoy Period modeling on someone else's pike, I don't collect anything that I wouldn't be operating at anytime in the future and I don't operate Period trains; have no Period engines to put these cars behind.  Your Ringling Bros car does sound nice though, and I've seen examples of other Period varnish including Binkley's 1880 era 60' round-top-window Business Car and earlier 1850 era and 1864 era cars and they're certainly nice models.  I will be including them all in my car listings, but for Period cars, I only collected the freight cars to complete that part of the collection which would only serve to add to Binkley's mainly early 1900's (1920, 1930, etc.) freight car kits to help fill that line out.  Besides, you can usually "sneak" a few older freight cars into a train of early 1900's cars tucked behind a Mantua Consolidation -- but it's difficult to get away with a cut of Period passenger cars hauled by a Varney Pacific.  I never sought out a Belle of the Eighty's.    

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                For this same reason, I couldn't tell you if Binkley used the same style boxes for all their passenger cars, but they would have had to make some of their boxes longer to accomodate any longer cars than your P-31, although I don't know this car's length (my Binkley catalogs don't indicate a length for this car).  I'd say that the P-8 1900 era Chair Car (Wide Closed Vestible) is probably their longest car, but again, no length is indicated -- only the photo which is comparatively longer than most of their others.  While I have all of Laconia's passenger car kits, as most are more "modern," I have their Sierra Coach and Combine only to fill out this part of the collection but I don't plan to operated them (or probably not even build them).  This is like IMP's Period passenger cars, I have them, but only to fill out the collection.  Same with Hi-Ball Model's Period passenger cars and other's, while I have them I don't plan to operated them even though I like them. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Your description of your car at towards the end of your post is tempting though.  Binkley was known for their ornate detail in these Period cars of theirs.  One of their catalog photos shows an end view of one of their coaches (no catalog number) showing the ornate brass grill work which was typical for the era.  They state, "only BINKLEY MODELS" brings such fine detailing as this."  They go on to state that "All cars with the exception of the 1870 vintage come with Gould Vestible Doors which include the ornate brass grill work."  Thanks again for your contribution.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11937
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 10/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                For those historically-minded, some of the buildings and some bits of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
trackage of the original Laconia Car Company (c.1881-1928) in Laconia,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
NH were still intact and standing when I last looked for them c. 1984-6.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11938
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: still looking for info
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                           As the 
end of the HOSC&H-SIG  (HO Scale Collectors & History- Special 
Interest Group) moderated by Dave Spanagel (author of the Greenberg Guide to 
Varney Trains ) was drawing to a close one outstanding non 
identification had not been made. I promised Dave I would try to find 
it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have sent black and white 
pictures plus text from the "Reporting Mark" (our newsletter ) Volume 24, 
Number 2-January 2006..
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I have tried to photographed the text with the 
pictures so I don't have to type it on one finger or make mistakes. Originally 
Mr. Spanagel had mailed me color photographs but they have come up missing. Cars 
are silver with blue B&O decals
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                   As you can see we were able to ID the 
engine but keep the name Crescent in mind. After the engine (which had been 
modified ) was identified we went on to the passenger cars. Again hopefully you 
can read the text with the pictures as to what we had to work with.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't know enough about real 
railroads and would like to know if the B&O had a passenger train called the 
Crescent ? Second I had never heard that Crescent Models produced passenger cars 
but since the word in decal form "Crescent" is on the side is it a possibility 
?  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                   The passenger cars themselves are 
described as short. How short I have no idea. They appear to be formed sheet 
aluminum with a steel floor which could be a number of early HO companies. As 
the text states " The most unusual thing about the cars is that all the doors 
have circular windows.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                   Since these passenger cars have odd 
"handmade" couplers, that are on the engine too, and the engine itself has been 
modified I tend to believe the cars are also modified but would still like to be 
sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                   Does anyone have any ideas especially 
about the metal doors with porthole windows. While I'm not sure if I ask this 
before I am hoping with all the new members someone can help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11939
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Binkley boxes; Binkley (Red Ball) Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Ray F.W., (and All!),
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The "steel" sided Ringling Bros. Advance car is my only Binkley passenger car kit to date, so can't offer any more on the Binkley boxes for any other passenger cars, including the longer cars.  The sides alone measure 54 feet and this length, when added to the two fully closed vestibule/step assemblies totals a car length of about 62 feet, less couplers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                "Collecting" thoughts:  I'm much in the same category as you regarding the "period" models of prototypes from the later half of the 1800's into the early years of the 20th Century.  However I have stretched the collection and modeling a bit into "period" when it coveres models for the northwest NJ prototype roads I model: Erie, DL&W, NYS&W, CNJ and the LNE and L&RR, all of which operated in my vicinity.  Since I can't collect one of every kit, the representative dercorated kits from many manufacturers I have mostly reflect favored the prototypes, as far as possible, such as the DL&W boxcar and CNJ cabooses from Lehigh, or the Erie wood caboose from Bathgate.   
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The second stretch came when I began collecting Red Ball models and kits in earnest, as Dale Newton's and John Anderson's fine work was too great to exclude!  So have most examples of their non-boxcar and non-reefer models and kits.  But again, could not collect all the reefers, so stuck to Erie, plus beer-wine-spirits, dry ice and the three food chains.  A nice representative collection.  Same limits for the R.B. box cars, adding in specialty ones done for the "house roads" such as the O&NW and Red Ball Line.  Then using those themes, for example with Laconia, have stuck to the beer theme and dry-ice themes, as they had no cars for "my" local roads.  Much easier than trying to collect all of each manufacturer, and many models form part of a second, or third overlapping collecting interest as well.  However along with Red Ball, I have much early pre 1950 Varney and Walthers as well, the major competitors of Red Ball.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Of course limits are off when I come across restorable examples from any line of interest, especially train show tables and lots!  Most all of my steam is modern "transition era" though,  Erie, NYS&W or LNE,  with the major exception of an earlier period custom-built center cab Erie 0-8-8-0 which nevertheless is one of my favorite steam models.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thoughts on Binkley Passenger Cars: When Bob Binkley took over Laconia, he kept the line's identity seperate until he ceased production in the early 1960's.  But when he purchased the rights to market/manufacture Red Ball's passenger car and HOn3 lines in the early 1950's, and reintroduced the models, I believe he seemed all too willing to let folks believe he was the innovator of those unique passenger car kits, including the ones with narrow Gould vestibules and all that finely detailed filligreed brasswork.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Yet the vast majority of the Binkley passenger car line was developed as Red Ball and sold by M. Dale Newton a half decade earlier, even before it seems John Anderson arrived at Red Ball.  Every one of the photographs of the ornate passenger car models in Binkley's catalogs is a second generation halftone from Red Ball's catalog #4 (circa 1947) or #5 (1950).  In fact, Binkley simply summarized the description of the narrow Gould vestibules and ornate brass grillwork from (the actual) Page 13 of Red Ball #5. (All catalogs mentioned are at www.HOSeeker.org  ).
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The few pasenger car models which Binkley did originate, like the Ringling advance car, owed all of its construction methods and detail (and even instructions) to Red Ball components, except for the foil surfaced embossed car sides (using the technique borrowed from Binkley's Laconia line, I imagine).  In fact, the reason I purchased that Ringling car was that it had the simulated steel sides,  the prototype could have lasted well into the 20th Century and that the kit had originated, at least the sides, with Binkley.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi W Jay W., Many many thanks for your input/addition of your P-31 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ringling Bros Advance Car box -- it's most appreciated. I see now, that I should 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > have clarified my kit box listings, stating that they only covered the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > freight car kits but didn't think of that when I was just now rewriting it from my 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > original article. Any other Binkley passenger car kit box descriptions 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > would be appreciated here as well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > To explain why I didn't include Binkley passenger car kit boxes in my 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > original article is easy -- while I can enjoy Period modeling on someone else's 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > pike, I don't collect anything that I wouldn't be operating at anytime in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > future and I don't operate Period trains; have no Period engines to put 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > these cars behind. Your Ringling Bros car does sound nice though, and I've 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > seen examples of other Period varnish including Binkley's 1880 era 60' 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > round-top-window Business Car and earlier 1850 era and 1864 era cars and they're 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > certainly nice models. I will be including them all in my car listings, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > for Period cars, I only collected the freight cars to complete that part of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > the collection which would only serve to add to Binkley's mainly early 1900's 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > (1920, 1930, etc.) freight car kits to help fill that line out. Besides, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > you can usually "sneak" a few older freight cars into a train of early 1900's 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > cars tucked behind a Mantua Consolidation -- but it's difficult to get away 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > with a cut of Period passenger cars hauled by a Varney Pacific. I never 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > sought out a Belle of the Eighty's. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > For this same reason, I couldn't tell you if Binkley used the same style 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > boxes for all their passenger cars, but they would have had to make some of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > their boxes longer to accomodate any longer cars than your P-31, although I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > don't know this car's length (my Binkley catalogs don't indicate a length for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > this car). I'd say that the P-8 1900 era Chair Car (Wide Closed Vestible) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > is probably their longest car, but again, no length is indicated -- only the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > photo which is comparatively longer than most of their others. While I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > all of Laconia's passenger car kits, as most are more "modern," I have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > their Sierra Coach and Combine only to fill out this part of the collection but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I don't plan to operated them (or probably not even build them). This is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > like IMP's Period passenger cars, I have them, but only to fill out the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > collection. Same with Hi-Ball Model's Period passenger cars and other's, while I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > have them I don't plan to operated them even though I like them. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Your description of your car at towards the end of your post is tempting 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > though. Binkley was known for their ornate detail in these Period cars of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > theirs. One of their catalog photos shows an end view of one of their coaches 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > (no catalog number) showing the ornate brass grill work which was typical 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > for the era. They state, "only BINKLEY MODELS" brings such fine detailing as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > this." They go on to state that "All cars with the exception of the 1870 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > vintage come with Gould Vestible Doors which include the ornate brass grill 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > work." Thanks again for your contribution. Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11940
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: still looking for info
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim H., Will try to check over the MR mag. ads for Crescent's years later tonight to see if there is any reference to them manufacturing any passenger cars. I like those portholes! W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>            As the end of the HOSC&H-SIG  (HO Scale Collectors & History- Special Interest Group) moderated by Dave Spanagel (author of the Greenberg Guide to Varney Trains ) was drawing to a close one outstanding non identification had not been made. I promised Dave I would try to find it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     I have sent black and white pictures plus text from the "Reporting Mark" (our newsletter ) Volume 24, Number 2-January 2006..
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I have tried to photographed the text with the pictures so I don't have to type it on one finger or make mistakes. Originally Mr. Spanagel had mailed me color photographs but they have come up missing. Cars are silver with blue B&O decals
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>    As you can see we were able to ID the engine but keep the name Crescent in mind. After the engine (which had been modified ) was identified we went on to the passenger cars. Again hopefully you can read the text with the pictures as to what we had to work with.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     I don't know enough about real railroads and would like to know if the B&O had a passenger train called the Crescent ? Second I had never heard that Crescent Models produced passenger cars but since the word in decal form "Crescent" is on the side is it a possibility ?  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>    The passenger cars themselves are described as short. How short I have no idea. They appear to be formed sheet aluminum with a steel floor which could be a number of early HO companies. As the text states " The most unusual thing about the cars is that all the doors have circular windows.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>    Since these passenger cars have odd "handmade" couplers, that are on the engine too, and the engine itself has been modified I tend to believe the cars are also modified but would still like to be sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>    Does anyone have any ideas especially about the metal doors with porthole windows. While I'm not sure if I ask this before I am hoping with all the new members someone can help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                                                                                               Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11941
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: still looking for info [5 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jim,  The Southern Railroad's premier flagship Name Train was called the "Crescent Limited."  It ran between New York City and New Orleans.  It was continued with the take-over by Amtrak (I photographed it many times behind GG-1s on the ex-PRR Northeast Corridor), but I don't remember if the name was just cut short to "Crescent."  In any case, I have no idea why a B&O train would have that name on it, but if it wasn't on the letterboard where Baltimore & Ohio would appear and if it is only on one car somewhere under the windows, then that would be the name of that particular car -- in prototype practice.

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Checking out the photos, the only thing that comes to mind is that I believe Tenshodo used those round ventilators on the car roofs.  As for the porthole windows on the baggage door, I haven't seen Tenshodo use them, but they could have; as we know, they made shortie cars.  Round porthole windows like this was used extensively by the PRR.  In checking fast through my catalogs I couldn't come up with anyone having these baggage doors, although I suppose they could have been fabricated by the modeler.  I could tell you many manufacturers which didn't make these cars, which might help narrow things down, but no one in particular (besides the Tenshodo possibility) that definitely made this car.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11942
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Binkley boxes; Binkley (Red Ball) Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi W Jay W.,  Since your Ringling Bros car sides are 54 scale feet long, and just fit inside the box, then we have to assume they DID have larger boxes to accomodate the longer passenger cars.  It would be interesting to find out how many other size passenger car kit boxes they did make.

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Extremely interesting narrative on Binkley when it came to their marketing the Red Ball cars.  I'll have to go to my catalogs of each and compare them more closely.  I won't go into further discussions on this topic as it looks like you're on top of it.  Your remarks will be filed though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Getting back to our collecting preferences, I might venture a guess that many of us collect just as you describe.  As for my preferences, the omission of Period cars by a manufacturer which I collect otherwise is the same as my excluding the Binkley narrow gauge cars.  While I find them interesting, I know I'd never operate them if I collected and assembled them as I'm not into building a narrow gauge line.  While a collector may decide on including certain manufacturers in his acquisitions, that doesn't necessarily mean that everything the manufacturer made must be found to consider that line as being complete.  I have complete or near-complete lines of a lot of manufacturers, but that doesn't mean I collect everything they ever made -- but just those lines of products that I prefer -- like Athearn metal (but not necessarily their complete line of plastic).  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11943
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                BINKLEY/LACONIA

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             (Continued)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              by Ray Wetzel

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      KIT BOXES -- Continued 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                This author has six pre-War Lockhart-Laconia kits with boxes, from the early beginnings of the company as Lockhart-Laconia when T.H. Lockhart's business was bought out and merged with Laconia Industries (of Laconia, NH) in late '39 -- early '40.   
                                                                                                                                                                                                (Chuck, this part is being written now and was not part of my original manuscript, therefore I never measured these boxes as I acquired the kits after writing this article).  As far as I recollect, these boxes were made of one-piece cardbord having a glossy maroon colored finish.  When I dig them out I'll send any additions or corrections to this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Two different size boxes were used by Laconia when in Franklin, NH.  Their two-piece freight car box is orange with black lettering most similar to what printers call "Hobo" style type.  The orange top shows "LACONIA" in large 3/4" high letters, with "H0 GAUGE CAR KIT" (7/16" high) below this.  Then, "Laconia Industries, Inc." and "Franklin, N.H." in smaller letters, all in black.  A solid black bar and three lines also adorn the top, running in an "L" shape along the left edge and bottom edge of the box top, underneath the address.  One side of the box is blank (plain orange), the other side has "LACONIA CARS" in 1 1/16" high black letters.  "LACONIA H0 SUPER CAR KIT" is found on one end only, on those kits which include trucks.  Those kits that came without trucks have only "LACONIA H0 CAR KIT" on one end.  The kit description is found on both ends.  This box measures 9 3/16" x 3 3/8" x 1 5/8".

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Their passenger car kit box from Franklin, NH is also orange with black lettering identical to the above.  As the passenger kits also came with or without trucks, two different designations (w/"Super" or w/o) may also be found on these box ends.  As above, the kit description is found on both ends, but one end includes a narrow white paper kit description label.  This box measures 12 1/8" x 3 3/8" x 1 5/8".

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                After their move to Stockton, CA, their box changed somewhat in appearance, although still two-piece and of dull-finish paper on cardboard.  This more familiar box came in six known color combinations, all of one design, featuring the illustration of a large boxcar on top.  The word "Laconia" appears in script lettering on the left side of the boxcar, with "STOCKTON, CALIFORNIA" in very small letters beneath this.  On the right side of the boxcar is found -- "H - 0 GAUGE * CAR KIT * AN EXACT SCALE MODEL * THE H0 MAIN LINE" in various size lettering.  This lettering is the same color as the basic color of the box.  "Laconia" (in script) "H0 GAUGE CAR KIT" is found on each side of the box.  This lettering is also found on each end, in all block letters.  The kit description is found on both ends, the road name and road number stamped within a boxcar silhouette.  The six color combinations are; orange box/white boxcar illustration, magenta box/white boxcar, red box/white boxcar, black box/white boxcar, green box/white boxcar, and black box/green boxcar. This box measures 9 3/16" x 3 3/8" x 1 5/8".

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                A smaller, much rarer Laconia box was also used for Stockton, CA.  The desin and lettering is identical to the previous Stockton, CA box, with the boxcar illustration and lettering on the top and sides somewhat reduced in size to fit the smaller box dimensions.  The kit description is found on both ends within a small boxcar silhouette.  To date, one color combination is known, that being a green box with a white boxcar outline (lettering within the boxcar outline -- green).  It is entirely feasible that other color boxes may exist in this smaller size, although not yet known.  This box was used by Binkley after the take-over, with no attempt to hide or disguise the Laconia heritage.  Only a paper address label added to each end of the box relates to the new manufacturer in this case.  The words, "Mfd. by BINKELY MODELS * P.O. BOX 31, INGLEWOOD, CALIF." appear on these labels.  The kit description is then rubber stamped below this label, as a roadname and roadnumber.  The Laconia catalog number was handwritten on the new paper label.  Size of this box -- 6 5/8" x 3 1/2" x 1 3/4".

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Laconia's only structure kit came in a large flat yellow tw-piece box.  A photo reproduction of the prototype F.J. Campodonico Co. warehouse building appears on the top in brown.  The sides of the box are plain yellow.  Each end contains the kit description and manufacturer name in brown print, in "Cooper-Black" style type.  Printed are the words, "H0 - Wholesale Fruit Broker's Warehouse - H0."  Beneath this, "LACONIA INDUSTRIES, INC."  Under this in condensed block letters, the address -- "1707 E. ROOSEVELT * STOCKTON, CALIF."  The dimensions of this box are: 13 1/2" x 10" x 1 3/8". 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                (To be continued, and completed with the car production listings)  Ray Wetzel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11944
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: still looking for info
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Tenshodo a 
very good thought. A lot of things match and I always wondered if the owner 
just fabricated the doors for his look. I just want to make sure I'm 
not missing something. I wish I had more views and better pictures to work 
with instead of a guessing game
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 7:07 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] still looking 
  for info
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jim,  The 
  Southern Railroad's premier flagship Name Train was called the "Crescent 
  Limited."  It ran between New York City and New Orleans.  It was 
  continued with the take-over by Amtrak (I photographed it many times behind 
  GG-1s on the ex-PRR Northeast Corridor), but I don't remember if the name was 
  just cut short to "Crescent."  In any case, I have no idea why a B&O 
  train would have that name on it, but if it wasn't on the letterboard where 
  Baltimore & Ohio would appear and if it is only on one car somewhere under 
  the windows, then that would be the name of that particular car -- in 
  prototype practice. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Checking out the photos, the only thing that comes 
  to mind is that I believe Tenshodo used those round ventilators on the car 
  roofs.  As for the porthole windows on the baggage door, I haven't seen 
  Tenshodo use them, but they could have; as we know, they made shortie cars. 
   Round porthole windows like this was used extensively by the PRR. 
   In checking fast through my catalogs I couldn't come up with anyone 
  having these baggage doors, although I suppose they could have been fabricated 
  by the modeler.  I could tell you many manufacturers which didn't make 
  these cars, which might help narrow things down, but no one in particular 
  (besides the Tenshodo possibility) that definitely made this car.  Ray 
  F.W.                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11945
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: still looking for info
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jim H.,  Finished going through 1949 MR's last night, reviewing Crescent's few ads along with two other manufacturer's ads I had been wanting to review for a while.  Will try check 1948 and 1950 tonight as well.  One ID point of the cars in your photos that I could not be sure of is those porthole windows in the door.  It has since been suggested that a modeler could have made them in a substitute or custom made doors which is entirely possible.  Are those three protholes in alignment as might be the case with a production piece or are they slightly off in spacing or alignment?  I could not really tell.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>           Tenshodo a very good thought. A lot of things match and I always wondered if the owner just fabricated the doors for his look. I just want to make sure I'm not missing something. I wish I had more views and better pictures to work with instead of a guessing game
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                                                                     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   From: erieberk@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 7:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] still looking for info
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     Hi Jim,  The Southern Railroad's premier flagship Name Train was called the "Crescent Limited."  It ran between New York City and New Orleans.  It was continued with the take-over by Amtrak (I photographed it many times behind GG-1s on the ex-PRR Northeast Corridor), but I don't remember if the name was just cut short to "Crescent."  In any case, I have no idea why a B&O train would have that name on it, but if it wasn't on the letterboard where Baltimore & Ohio would appear and if it is only on one car somewhere under the windows, then that would be the name of that particular car -- in prototype practice. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Checking out the photos, the only thing that comes to mind is that I believe Tenshodo used those round ventilators on the car roofs.  As for the porthole windows on the baggage door, I haven't seen Tenshodo use them, but they could have; as we know, they made shortie cars.  Round porthole windows like this was used extensively by the PRR.  In checking fast through my catalogs I couldn't come up with anyone having these baggage doors, although I suppose they could have been fabricated by the modeler.  I could tell you many manufacturers which didn't make these cars, which might help narrow things down, but no one in particular (besides the Tenshodo possibility) that definitely made this car.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11946
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: still looking for info
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Thanks for your response. 
As I said I truly believe that these passenger cars were someone's project and 
were modified from a manufactured product. I really think Ray F W  hit it 
on the head when he suggested the basis for these cars was Tenshodo. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yet I have learned to be 
cautious. While Tenshodo produced "shorty" passenger cars for many companies 
a number of things make me wonder. First those port hole doors. Look neat 
but can't be sure if they were a manufactured item or hand made. I was hoping 
that they being kind of a unique item might help to ID if a 
manufactured item.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Another thing is that blue 
Crescent decal used on the passenger cars. This decal had to be created and in 
B&O colors. Does anyone know off hand if there is a company that would 
produce that special scrolled writing blue decal ? Since the engine was 
originally a Crescent produced item I had to wonder if there was any connection 
with the passenger cars. I'm fairly sure that Crescent did not produce any 
passenger cars but I believe in  Never Say Never.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    For now I will stick 
with my original thought that these are someone's project.  I just 
wish their had been more pictures and different views. THANKS
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 7:47 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: still looking 
  for info
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jim H., Finished going through 1949 MR's last night, reviewing 
  Crescent's few ads along with two other manufacturer' s ads I had been 
  wanting to review for a while. Will try check 1948 and 1950 tonight as well. 
  One ID point of the cars in your photos that I could not be sure of is those 
  porthole windows in the door. It has since been suggested that a modeler could 
  have made them in a substitute or custom made doors which is entirely 
  possible. Are those three protholes in alignment as might be the case with a 
  production piece or are they slightly off in spacing or alignment? I could not 
  really tell. W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ray F W,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Tenshodo a very good thought. A lot of things match and I always 
  wondered if the owner just fabricated the doors for his look. I just want to 
  make sure I'm not missing something. I wish I had more views and better 
  pictures to work with instead of a guessing game
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                                > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: erieberk@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 7:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: Re: 
  [vintageHO] still looking for info
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi Jim, The 
  Southern Railroad's premier flagship Name Train was called the "Crescent 
  Limited." It ran between New York City and New Orleans. It was continued with 
  the take-over by Amtrak (I photographed it many times behind GG-1s on the 
  ex-PRR Northeast Corridor), but I don't remember if the name was just cut 
  short to "Crescent." In any case, I have no idea why a B&O train would 
  have that name on it, but if it wasn't on the letterboard where Baltimore 
  & Ohio would appear and if it is only on one car somewhere under the 
  windows, then that would be the name of that particular car -- in prototype 
  practice. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Checking out the photos, the only thing that comes 
  to mind is that I believe Tenshodo used those round ventilators on the car 
  roofs. As for the porthole windows on the baggage door, I haven't seen 
  Tenshodo use them, but they could have; as we know, they made shortie cars. 
  Round porthole windows like this was used extensively by the PRR. In checking 
  fast through my catalogs I couldn't come up with anyone having these baggage 
  doors, although I suppose they could have been fabricated by the modeler. I 
  could tell you many manufacturers which didn't make these cars, which might 
  help narrow things down, but no one in particular (besides the Tenshodo 
  possibility) that definitely made this car. Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11947
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 10/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Shell swap
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Sorry for the cross post, but this has been driving me crazy. I have a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Revell diecast F7A unit that I would like to power. I've tried an Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
F-unit, but it is too long for the shell. I've tried a Bachmann Plus F-unit 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
but it is too wide. Any suggestions without major modifications to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
either shell or frame?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
www.prrh.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                
www.marx-trains.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11948
						From: jerrygart5
						Date: 10/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: still looking for info
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                The train was "Crescent Limited" until about 1938, when Southern revamped its passenger trains.  After that, it was just the "Crescent". Southern ran only to the D.C. area, from there it took the RF&P and Pennsy to get the train to NYC.  I do not recall any Southern/B&O colaborations.  I would speculate that the "Crescent" on your car is its name, and has no reference to the Southern train.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
The round portholes, as has been pointed out, are Pennsy.  A few heavyweight Erie Lackawanna cars had them as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I am only guessing-but since so many experts have been unable to tie this all down, the porthole door arrangement may be a case of "artistic license"?????
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jerry Garteiser
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 >                                                                     >   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   From: erieberk@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 7:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] still looking for info
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     Hi Jim,  The Southern Railroad's premier flagship Name Train was called the "Crescent Limited."  It ran between New York City and New Orleans.  It was continued with the take-over by Amtrak (I photographed it many times behind GG-1s on the ex-PRR Northeast Corridor), but I don't remember if the name was just cut short to "Crescent."  . . . .
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11949
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Binkley boxes; Binkley (Red Ball) Passenger Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Ray F.W., 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I will keep an eye out for the Binkley passenger cars now, too.  Last night I charted out all of the Red Ball passenger kits for the 1850's, 1870's, 1890's and the "more modern" 60' business car - listing them opposite the Binkley line kits (there were a few other Red Ball passenger cars manufactured earlier and after the Binkley transaction - but those are best left to be discussed at another time and in another thread to avoid undue complexity!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
In at least one instance, the Binkley change to a Red Ball kit was to substitute the full width vestibule used on one end of the 60' Red Ball Business Car RB #140 (& Binkley P-3), for the original Gould narrow vestibule ends of the 60' arched top 1890's coach - RB #100, creating a new and a bit more modern 60' coach variety, Binkley # P-13.  I do not know if Binkley continued using M. Dale Newton's extruded alumnimum clerestory roof section or if he substituted a milled wood part.  My Binkley Ringling Bros. car kit uses a milled wood roof section between the cast white metal roof ends.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I'm not into collecting HOn3, either, but interesting that Newton noted a few of his "period" kits for the 34' and 36' wood cars could be used for HOn3 as well, and supplied a number of detailed HOn3 trucks in his line, later went to Binkley as well.  Quite a few of those early car sides migrated into the Binkley HOn3 line, too. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
In a quick comparison, it looks as if most every Binkley part shown in his catalogs is a Red Ball part, some freight car parts being concurrently sold and continued in Red Ball's own line for years afterward as well, I believe.  Did Binkley have a supply deal with Newton?  Purchase duplicate dies?  My Ringling kit has Red Ball parts, cast and cut off in the same manner and otherwise indistinguishable. Yet the Binkley PRR Well Hole flat is clearly made of copied, spin cast metal parts.  It will be interesting if we can unravel the complete story of the deal between Newton and Binkley.  There are a few leads I'm working on that hopefully may supply more information. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi W Jay W.,  Since your Ringling Bros car sides are 54 scale feet long, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> and just fit inside the box, then we have to assume they DID have larger boxes 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> to accomodate the longer passenger cars.  It would be interesting to find 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> out how many other size passenger car kit boxes they did make.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Extremely interesting narrative on Binkley when it came to their marketing 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> the Red Ball cars.  I'll have to go to my catalogs of each and compare them 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> more closely.  I won't go into further discussions on this topic as it looks 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> like you're on top of it.  Your remarks will be filed though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Getting back to our collecting preferences, I might venture a guess that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> many of us collect just as you describe.  As for my preferences, the omission 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> of Period cars by a manufacturer which I collect otherwise is the same as my 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> excluding the Binkley narrow gauge cars.  While I find them interesting, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> know I'd never operate them if I collected and assembled them as I'm not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> into building a narrow gauge line.  While a collector may decide on including 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> certain manufacturers in his acquisitions, that doesn't necessarily mean that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> everything the manufacturer made must be found to consider that line as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> being complete.  I have complete or near-complete lines of a lot of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> manufacturers, but that doesn't mean I collect everything they ever made -- but just 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> those lines of products that I prefer -- like Athearn metal (but not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> necessarily their complete line of plastic).  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11950
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: still looking for info
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Jerry,  Thanks for clarifying the name change in 1938 from "Crescent Limited" to "Crescent."  We just called it the "Southern Crescent."  Yes, the Southern RR engines were taken off in D.C., while the train continued to New York behind Pennsy power on their electrified D.C. -- NYC route.  I believe they had trackage rights over the RF&P and used Southern power right into D.C.  (didn't change to RF&P engines).  This was the same arrangement that several other southern railroads had, like the Seaboard Air Line and the Atlantic Coast Line.  When I rode the SAL in the War years of the early '40's from Miami to New York City, the engines were switched out at Washington, D.C.  I used to sit in the observation of the Silver Meteor and watch the steam switcher (Washington Terminal RR) come up from behind the train, couple on to the obs, and pull the train away from the SAL diesels (EMD E-3's) -- then a pair of PRR GG-1's would couple on for the trip north after the station stop.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11951
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: still looking for info
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                   Jerry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Thanks for your thoughts. I have always believed, as you say, artistic license. 
That includes the engine and passenger cars but I wanted to make sure I 
missed nothing in trying to ID them .
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: 
  jerrygart5 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 10:48 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: still looking 
  for info
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                The train was "Crescent Limited" until about 1938, when Southern revamped 
  its passenger trains. After that, it was just the "Crescent". Southern ran 
  only to the D.C. area, from there it took the RF&P and Pennsy to get the 
  train to NYC. I do not recall any Southern/B&O colaborations. I would 
  speculate that the "Crescent" on your car is its name, and has no reference to 
  the Southern train.

                                                                                                                                                                                                The round portholes, as has been pointed out, are 
  Pennsy. A few heavyweight Erie Lackawanna cars had them as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                I am 
  only guessing-but since so many experts have been unable to tie this all down, 
  the porthole door arrangement may be a case of "artistic 
  license"???? ?

                                                                                                                                                                                                Jerry Garteiser

                                                                                                                                                                                                > > ----- Original 
  Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: erieberk@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 7:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: Re: 
  [vintageHO] still looking for info
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi Jim, The 
  Southern Railroad's premier flagship Name Train was called the "Crescent 
  Limited." It ran between New York City and New Orleans. It was continued with 
  the take-over by Amtrak (I photographed it many times behind GG-1s on the 
  ex-PRR Northeast Corridor), but I don't remember if the name was just cut 
  short to "Crescent." . . . .
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                >

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11952
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                BINKLEY/LACONIA

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                               (Continued)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                     by Ray Wetzel

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                With completion of the box list, a listing of the kits and catalog numbers are in order as appears below.  While this author has endeavored to include all road names and numbers, this author's Laconia and Binkley collection is not totally complete, hence, some Laconia roadnumbers have been unavoidably omitted.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                (Chuck, I've added a few kits since this was written, but don't have the numbers available).  Mentioned previously, Laconia issued three roadnumbers on their later production.  Binkley on the other hand, issued only one roadnumber per roadname, except for their stock cars.  Not withstanding, a few of the last Binkley roadnumbers have likewise been omitted.  The membership is encouraged to share any additional information.  (Chuck, W Jay W. has volunteered to fill in any missing road numbers).  The first grouping of pre-War Laconia ("Super") car kits did not have catalog numbers in their catalogs.  There are also five Laconia freight car kits towards the end of this listing that I have not found the catalog numbers for.  While I suspect they may be pre-war, only because of their lack of catalog numbers, if they are they post date my pre-War catalogs.  They may have been produced in 1941 before the War broke out for us, but I'm including them under post-War production.

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                          LACONIA PRODUCTION KITS (pre-War)

                                                                                                                                                                                                "SUPER" (w/Trucks)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Pennsylvania 70-Ton Hopper Car 179378

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Pennsylvania Mill Type Gondola 344500

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Boston & Maine O/B Wood Box Car 72000

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          New York Central Steel-Type Box Car 91124

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Pennsyvnania Steel-Type Automobile Box Car 70311

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Central Vermont Express Refrigerator 559

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Mathieson Dry Ice Express Refrigerator

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Boston & Maine 42' 50-Ton Flat Car 33616

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The Shawmut PS&N Caboose

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Union Tank Car -- 10,000 Gallon Oil

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Pullman Standard 80-Foot, 12-Section, Hutchinson 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Pullman Green (introduced 1939)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Chesapeake & Ohio Passenger Coach 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Coach Green (introduced 1939)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          New York Central Combination Baggage & Smoker 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Green (introduced 1939)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Standard Passenger Coach 80', Red or Green

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          (introduced 1940)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Standard Combination Baggage & Smoker

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Red or Green (introduced 1940)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Standard Pullman Car, Green only

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          (introduced 1940)  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                              LOCKHART-LACONIA PRODUCTION KITS (pre-War, 1939)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Refrigerator Cars:

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TR-1  Swift Ham [changed to TR-1 Kingan (36') in 1940]

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TR-2  Burlington (CB&Q) 75352

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TR-3  Lackawanna (DL&W) 7000

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TR-4  North American Despatch

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TR-5  Colorado Southern

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TR-6  Borden's Fine Cheese

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TR-7  Armour's Quality Products (36')

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TR-8  Swift Premium Ham (36')

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TR-9  General American Express (GATX -M&StL) 50306

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TR-10 Dry Ice

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TR-11 Northern Pacific

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TR-12 National Car Company

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TR-13 Morrell's Pride

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TR-14 Fruit Growers Express

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TR-15 Borden's Produce

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TR-16 Kahn's (36')

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TR-17 Farmers' Co-Op

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TR-18 Baby Ruth

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Box Cars:

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TB-1  Seaboard Air Line, Class B6

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TB-2  Union Pacific, Class B50-19

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TB-3  Chicago & Northwestern

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TB-4  Pennsylvania, Class X31A #78500

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TB-5  New Haven, (36') Class XM9

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TB-6  New York Central 121556

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TB-7  Northern Pacific 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                (introduced 1940)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TB-8  Virginian, (50') Class AX-1

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Automobile Car (introduced 1940)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TB-9  Baltimore & Ohio, Class M-53 #381798

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Wagon Top Car (introduced 1940)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                TB-10 Burlington (CB&Q), Class 3 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                (introduced 1940)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                   LACONIA INDUSTRIES (post-War)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Billboard Reefers:

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BR-1  Bullfrog Beer 3070, 3071

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BR-2  Merchants Biscuits 3905

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BR-3  Kraft Mayonnaise 11151, 11152, 11153

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BR-4  Page Milk 1828, 1829, 1830

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BR-5  Country Club Beer 4407, 4408, 4409 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BR-6  Columbia Soups 7504, 7505, 7506

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BR-7  Libby's Pickles  1465, 1466, 1467

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BR-8  Peerless Beer 3060, 3061, 3062

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BR-9  Tivoli Beer 5101, 5102, 5103

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BR-10 B.D.T. (Bourk-Donaldson-Taylor) Potatoes - 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                6202, 6203, 6204

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BR-11 Baby Ruth 6266

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Box Cars (w/Reefer Doors):

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                LA-1  Ralston Purina 4553, 4554, 4555

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                LA-2  Chateau Martin Wine 118, 119, 120

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Milk Reefers:      

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                LA-3  Rutland 320, 321, 322

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                LA-4  Mathieson Dry Ice 5023

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                LA-5  Central Vermont 559

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hopper and Gondolas:

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                LA-6  Inland Steel 50-Ton Side Swing Hopper 304

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                LA-7  Alcoa 70-Ton Quad Hopper 809

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                LA-8  PRR 70-Ton Quad Hopper 179378, 179379

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                LA-9  PRR 52' Mill Gondola 344500, 344501, 344502

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Sierra Passenger Cars:

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                LA-10 Combine w/o Trucks

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                LA-11 Combine with (T-95) Trucks

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                LA-12 Coach w/o Trucks

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                LA-13 Coach with (T-95) trucks

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Standard Box Cars:

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Central of Georgia 40' Steel-Type

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Flat Cars:

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Donner Steel

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Clinchfield

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                CTH&SE (Chicago, Terre Haute & South Eastern)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Grand Trunk

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Heavyweight Passenger Cars:

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Standard Sleeper (Pullman), lettered: "Pullman"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Pullman Green

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                (To be concluded, with Binkley kit production),  Ray Wetzel

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11953
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 10/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Shell swap
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                On Oct 5, 2009, at 9:47 AM, My-Yahoo-Groups wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 > Sorry for the cross post, but this has been driving me crazy. I have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Revell diecast F7A unit that I would like to power. I've tried an  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> F-unit, but it is too long for the shell. I've tried a Bachmann  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Plus F-unit
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Where is the Athearn too long? Is it just the frame or something more  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
involved?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 > but it is too wide. Any suggestions without major modifications to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Where is the Bachmann too wide?  just the frame or the weight above  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
the frame?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 > either shell or frame?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                By all means, trim the frame to fit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Did you know you can make a frame from brass shapes to mount the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Athearn drive parts on, eliminating the cast frame?  That would allow  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
you to power the shell without modding it in any way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
You can see one here....... [ I think this uses Kato drive parts, but  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
it works the same for most makes of drives in HO ] I think have links  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
to a similar effort on a Athearn drive custom chassis on my other  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
computer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://www.dansresincasting.com/GE132%20ton%20PG1.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
separate images..
                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://www.dansresincasting.com/modified%20truck1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://www.dansresincasting.com/modified%20truck2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://www.dansresincasting.com/PICT0050.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://www.dansresincasting.com/PICT0044a.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Otherwise........ do you know anyone with a small mill that can trim  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
either the Athearn or Bachmann chassis for you? I know that's an low  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
probability question, but I have such a machine and so do some others.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Do you have a bench-top drill press? That tool can have a relatively  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
inexpensive mill table added to it and with the use of a decent  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
milling vice will allow you to trim the chassis yourself with  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
inexpensive milling cutters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Or is the tight fit minor enough that you can mod the chassis with a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
large file???
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
You do have quite a few options with the Athearn and Bachmann drives  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
you already have.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> www.prrh.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> www.marx-trains.co
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11954
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 10/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Shell swap
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                The front angled part of the Athearn frame doesn't fit the curve of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Revell shell. I may be able to wedge it in by doing some grinding on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
frame, but then I have to contend with the two mounting posts on the Revell 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
shell hit the drive towers on the Athearn frame. I was trying to get away 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
without modifying the shell so that if it didn't work, I could put the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Revell engine back together again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
The Bachmann frame is too wide, that's including the cast on weight. I'd 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
have to do too much grinding to get it to fit. Besides, I can't get the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
powered frame out of the shell on the A-unit. The coupler mount doesn't have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
enough give in it to slip the back of the shell off. I can't see how the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
shell comes off ... I've tried wedging here and squeezing there but it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
doesn't come off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
www.prrh.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                
www.marx-trains.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 5:10 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Shell swap
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
> On Oct 5, 2009, at 9:47 AM, My-Yahoo-Groups wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> Sorry for the cross post, but this has been driving me crazy. I have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> Revell diecast F7A unit that I would like to power. I've tried an
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> F-unit, but it is too long for the shell. I've tried a Bachmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> Plus F-unit
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Where is the Athearn too long? Is it just the frame or something more
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> involved?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> but it is too wide. Any suggestions without major modifications to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Where is the Bachmann too wide?  just the frame or the weight above
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> the frame?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> either shell or frame?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> By all means, trim the frame to fit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Did you know you can make a frame from brass shapes to mount the
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Athearn drive parts on, eliminating the cast frame?  That would allow
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> you to power the shell without modding it in any way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> You can see one here....... [ I think this uses Kato drive parts, but
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> it works the same for most makes of drives in HO ] I think have links
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> to a similar effort on a Athearn drive custom chassis on my other
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> computer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://www.dansresincasting.com/GE132%20ton%20PG1.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> separate images..
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://www.dansresincasting.com/modified%20truck1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://www.dansresincasting.com/modified%20truck2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://www.dansresincasting.com/PICT0050.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://www.dansresincasting.com/PICT0044a.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Otherwise........ do you know anyone with a small mill that can trim
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> either the Athearn or Bachmann chassis for you? I know that's an low
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> probability question, but I have such a machine and so do some others.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Do you have a bench-top drill press? That tool can have a relatively
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> inexpensive mill table added to it and with the use of a decent
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> milling vice will allow you to trim the chassis yourself with
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> inexpensive milling cutters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Or is the tight fit minor enough that you can mod the chassis with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> large file???
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> You do have quite a few options with the Athearn and Bachmann drives
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> you already have.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> www.prrh.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> www.marx-trains.co
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11955
						From: corlissbs
						Date: 10/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Aftermarket Bodies For Athearn Hustler
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Someone produced aftermarket bodies for the Athearn Hustler.  I remember that there was a Birney streetcar and some other bodies.  I think they were made of cardboard or wood.  Does anyone have one of these and could shed some light on the products?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11956
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Aftermarket Bodies For Athearn Hustler
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Brad S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Paul Moore, Adrian, MI produced those kits.  HOSeeker now has a wealth of information on his kits, here is a link to many of the different the kits he sold to fit the Hustler type locomotives, as well as some to fit Athearn's F-7 chassis.  Not easy to find, but seems like they would be fun to build or restore and run.  I may have some photos saved and will look later, after my current project is done.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://hoseeker.org/paulmoore/paulmooreadvertisementtrolleycar560pg2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "corlissbs" <corlissbs@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Someone produced aftermarket bodies for the Athearn Hustler.  I remember that there was a Birney streetcar and some other bodies.  I think they were made of cardboard or wood.  Does anyone have one of these and could shed some light on the products?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11957
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 10/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Aftermarket Bodies For Athearn Hustler
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks.  Those are the ones-the Little Scoots.  Always wanted 
one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11958
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Ray F.W., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Here are the few additional numbers (in blue) for two of the post-war Laconia Industries cars.  This information is copied from undated mimeographed pages titled "Laconia HO Car Parts" which were included with red and green printed folder, with Santa, titled "Laconia's Special Christmas Offer" good until Dec. 31, 1954.   Model BR-11 Baby Ruth was not listed; No individual car numbers were listed for LA-4 Mathieson Dry Ice, LA-5 Central Vermont Milk, nor for any of the hoppers and gon.  I did not repeat your whole post-war list as the rest of your number sets is complete to what is listed on this factory list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                LACONIA INDUSTRIES (post-War)
                                                                                                                                                                                                 > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Billboard Reefers:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > BR-1 Bullfrog Beer 3070, 3071, 3072
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > BR-2 Merchants Biscuits 3905, 3906, 3907
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                If anyone would like a photocopy of the sheet, email me your address off list.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > BINKLEY/LACONIA
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > (Continued)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > by Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > With completion of the box list, a listing of the kits and catalog numbers 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > are in order as appears below. While this author has endeavored to include 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > all road names and numbers, this author's Laconia and Binkley collection is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > not totally complete, hence, some Laconia roadnumbers have been unavoidably 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > omitted. (Chuck, I've added a few kits since this was written, but don't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > have the numbers available). Mentioned previously, Laconia issued three 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > roadnumbers on their later production. Binkley on the other hand, issued only 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > one roadnumber per roadname, except for their stock cars. Not withstanding, a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > few of the last Binkley roadnumbers have likewise been omitted. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > membership is encouraged to share any additional information. (Chuck, W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > has volunteered to fill in any missing road numbers). The first grouping of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > pre-War Laconia ("Super") car kits did not have catalog numbers in their 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > catalogs. There are also five Laconia freight car kits towards the end of this 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > listing that I have not found the catalog numbers for. While I suspect they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > may be pre-war, only because of their lack of catalog numbers, if they are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > they post date my pre-War catalogs. They may have been produced in 1941 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > before the War broke out for us, but I'm including them under post-War 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > production.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > LACONIA PRODUCTION KITS (pre-War)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > "SUPER" (w/Trucks)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Pennsylvania 70-Ton Hopper Car 179378
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Pennsylvania Mill Type Gondola 344500
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Boston & Maine O/B Wood Box Car 72000
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > New York Central Steel-Type Box Car 91124
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Pennsyvnania Steel-Type Automobile Box Car 70311
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Central Vermont Express Refrigerator 559
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Mathieson Dry Ice Express Refrigerator
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Boston & Maine 42' 50-Ton Flat Car 33616
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > The Shawmut PS&N Caboose
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Union Tank Car -- 10,000 Gallon Oil
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Pullman Standard 80-Foot, 12-Section, Hutchinson 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Pullman Green (introduced 1939)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Chesapeake & Ohio Passenger Coach 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Coach Green (introduced 1939)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > New York Central Combination Baggage & Smoker 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Green (introduced 1939)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Standard Passenger Coach 80', Red or Green
                                                                                                                                                                                                > (introduced 1940)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Standard Combination Baggage & Smoker
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Red or Green (introduced 1940)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Standard Pullman Car, Green only
                                                                                                                                                                                                > (introduced 1940) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > LOCKHART-LACONIA PRODUCTION KITS (pre-War, 1939)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Refrigerator Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TR-1 Swift Ham [changed to TR-1 Kingan 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > (36') in 1940]
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TR-2 Burlington (CB&Q) 75352
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TR-3 Lackawanna (DL&W) 7000
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TR-4 North American Despatch
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TR-5 Colorado Southern
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TR-6 Borden's Fine Cheese
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TR-7 Armour's Quality Products (36')
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TR-8 Swift Premium Ham (36')
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TR-9 General American Express (GATX -M&
                                                                                                                                                                                                > StL) 50306
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TR-10 Dry Ice
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TR-11 Northern Pacific
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TR-12 National Car Company
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TR-13 Morrell's Pride
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TR-14 Fruit Growers Express
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TR-15 Borden's Produce
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TR-16 Kahn's (36')
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TR-17 Farmers' Co-Op
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TR-18 Baby Ruth
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Box Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TB-1 Seaboard Air Line, Class B6
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TB-2 Union Pacific, Class B50-19
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TB-3 Chicago & Northwestern
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TB-4 Pennsylvania, Class X31A #78500
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TB-5 New Haven, (36') Class XM9
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TB-6 New York Central 121556
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TB-7 Northern Pacific 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > (introduced 1940)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TB-8 Virginian, (50') Class AX-1
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Automobile Car (introduced 1940)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TB-9 Baltimore & Ohio, Class M-53 #381798
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Wagon Top Car (introduced 1940)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > TB-10 Burlington (CB&Q), Class 3 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > (introduced 1940)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > LACONIA INDUSTRIES (post-War)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Billboard Reefers:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > BR-1 Bullfrog Beer 3070, 3071
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > BR-2 Merchants Biscuits 3905
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > BR-3 Kraft Mayonnaise 11151, 11152, 11153
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > BR-4 Page Milk 1828, 1829, 1830
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > BR-5 Country Club Beer 4407, 4408, 4409 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > BR-6 Columbia Soups 7504, 7505, 7506
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > BR-7 Libby's Pickles 1465, 1466, 1467
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > BR-8 Peerless Beer 3060, 3061, 3062
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > BR-9 Tivoli Beer 5101, 5102, 5103
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > BR-10 B.D.T. (Bourk-Donaldson-Taylor) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Potatoes - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 6202, 6203, 6204
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > BR-11 Baby Ruth 6266
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Box Cars (w/Reefer Doors):
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > LA-1 Ralston Purina 4553, 4554, 4555
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > LA-2 Chateau Martin Wine 118, 119, 120
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Milk Reefers: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > LA-3 Rutland 320, 321, 322
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > LA-4 Mathieson Dry Ice 5023
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > LA-5 Central Vermont 559
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hopper and Gondolas:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > LA-6 Inland Steel 50-Ton Side Swing Hopper 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 304
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > LA-7 Alcoa 70-Ton Quad Hopper 809
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > LA-8 PRR 70-Ton Quad Hopper 179378, 179379
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > LA-9 PRR 52' Mill Gondola 344500, 344501, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 344502
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sierra Passenger Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > LA-10 Combine w/o Trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > LA-11 Combine with (T-95) Trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > LA-12 Coach w/o Trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > LA-13 Coach with (T-95) trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Standard Box Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Central of Georgia 40' Steel-Type
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Flat Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Donner Steel
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Clinchfield
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > CTH&SE (Chicago, Terre Haute & South 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Eastern)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Grand Trunk
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Heavyweight Passenger Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Standard Sleeper (Pullman), lettered: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > "Pullman"
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Pullman Green
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > (To be concluded, with Binkley kit production), Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11959
						From: Jay Wanczyk
						Date: 10/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Brad S., and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Brad S., Here are some photos of a group of assembled Paul Moore gas electrics that were sold as one lot on eBay a while back.  The Little Scoot is at lower right of the first photo, and at bottom of second.   I did not purchase this lot, and not my photos, so am just posting them here for educational viewing instead of in a permanent album.  W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11960
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Shell swap - Building Custom Power Frames
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Mike B., Your reply to Steve W. earlier today that included the links for building a custom frame to fit just about any locomotive and power it with standard components is pretty cool and have already thought of several applications for it to get some vintage and current models moving!   W Jay W.    
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> On Oct 5, 2009, at 9:47 AM, My-Yahoo-Groups wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Sorry for the cross post, but this has been driving me crazy. I have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Revell diecast F7A unit that I would like to power. I've tried an  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > F-unit, but it is too long for the shell. I've tried a Bachmann  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Plus F-unit
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Where is the Athearn too long? Is it just the frame or something more  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> involved?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > but it is too wide. Any suggestions without major modifications to the
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Where is the Bachmann too wide?  just the frame or the weight above  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> the frame?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > either shell or frame?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> By all means, trim the frame to fit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Did you know you can make a frame from brass shapes to mount the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Athearn drive parts on, eliminating the cast frame?  That would allow  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> you to power the shell without modding it in any way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> You can see one here....... [ I think this uses Kato drive parts, but  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> it works the same for most makes of drives in HO ] I think have links  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> to a similar effort on a Athearn drive custom chassis on my other  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> computer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://www.dansresincasting.com/GE132%20ton%20PG1.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> separate images..
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://www.dansresincasting.com/modified%20truck1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://www.dansresincasting.com/modified%20truck2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://www.dansresincasting.com/PICT0050.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://www.dansresincasting.com/PICT0044a.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Otherwise........ do you know anyone with a small mill that can trim  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> either the Athearn or Bachmann chassis for you? I know that's an low  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> probability question, but I have such a machine and so do some others.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Do you have a bench-top drill press? That tool can have a relatively  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> inexpensive mill table added to it and with the use of a decent  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> milling vice will allow you to trim the chassis yourself with  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> inexpensive milling cutters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Or is the tight fit minor enough that you can mod the chassis with a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> large file???
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> You do have quite a few options with the Athearn and Bachmann drives  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> you already have.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > www.prrh.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > www.marx-trains.co
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11961
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi W Jay W.,  Many thanks again -- your input is a big help towards completing these road numbers.  While Laconia always used sequential numbers, there's no way of knowing otherwise whether the BR-2 Merchants Biscuits (for instance) kits were numbered 3903, 3904 and 3905 or whether they were numbered 3905, 3906 and 3907 as you've proven to be the case.  This is most helpful for those collecting this line.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11962
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                BINKLEY/LACONIA

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            (Continued)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  by Ray Wetzel

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                BINKLEY MODELS -- KIT PRODUCTION

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Standard Gauge Freight Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                      HO-100 Colorado Midland Box Car 23 ("Wood Side" -- Truss Rod)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                      HO-101 Overland Despatch Box Car 359 ("wood Side" -- Truss Rod)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 **HO-102 D&RGW Stcock Car 36950, 36957, 36958 (Truss Rod)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                   *HO-103 MP Stock Car 52422, 52425, 52428 and/or

                                                                                                                                                                                                                 ATSF 50655, 50656, 50659

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 **HO-104 UP Stock Car 47700, 47701, 47704

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                   *HO-105 Wabash Stock Car 15121, 15122, 15125 and/or

                                                                                                                                                                                                                 C&NW 19133, 19136, 19137, 19177

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-106 Drovers Caboose

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-107 Great Northern (White) Box Car ("Wood Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-108 Great Northern (Red) Box Car ("Wood Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-109 Canadian Pacific Box Car 243411 ("Wood Side -- Steel Beam)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-110 Canadian National Box Car 480726 ("Wood Side" -- Steel Beam)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-111 Union Pacific Box Car ("Wood Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-112 WP PFE Reefer 51088 ("Wood Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-113 StL&SW Box Car 38674 ("Wood Side" -- Steel Beam)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-114 SOO Line Stock Car 29699 (Truss Rod)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-115 NYNH&H (NH - Red) Box Car 32985 ("Steel Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              [Used Same Number]

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-116 NYNH&H (NH - Black) Box Car 32985 ("Steel Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-117 B&O Box Car ("Steel Side" -- Steel Beam)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-118 PRR-Merchandise Box Car 569441 ("Steel Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-119 SP "Overnight" (Silver) Box Car 93218 ("Aluminum Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-120 WP "Feather" (Box Car Red) Box Car 19501 ("Steel Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-121 C&O Hi-Side Gondola 36293

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-122 M&StL (Red) Box Car 54102 ("Steel Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-123 Rutland (Green & Yellow) Box Car 102 ("Steel Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-124 B&M (Blue) Box Car 78625 ("Steel Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-125 D&RGW Box Car ("Steel Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-126 C&NW Reefer 70552 ("Wood Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-127 CM&StP Reefer 37019 ("Steel Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-128 C&O (Black & Yellow) Box Car 19000 ("Steel Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-129 ATSF Chief Reefer 4311 ("Steel Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-130 FGEX Reefer 38960 ("Steel Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-131 PRR Well Hole Flat w/Load 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-132 UP 50' (Orange) Box Car 499087 ("Steel Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-133 Armour Reefer 5325 ("Wood Side" -- Truss Rod)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-134 Swift Reefer 2813 ("Wood Side" -- Truss Rod)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-135 B&O Globe Box Car 2416 ("Wood Side" -- Truss Rod)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-136 SP "Shasta Route" Box Car 12959 ("Wood Side" -- Truss Rod)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-137 ATSF 4-Door Reefer 701 ("Steel Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-138 NYC Convertible Gondola

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-139 SP Convertible Gondola

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-140 NP Automobile Box Car 7416

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-141 Dairyman's League Express Reefer 788 ("Wood Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-142 PRR Flat Car

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-143 PRR Lo-Board Flat Car 4154

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-144 KCS "Southern Belle" Automobile Box Car 20890 ("Steel Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-145 D&RGW Lo-Board Flat Car

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO- 146 Swarzchild-Sulzberger Reefer 1675 ("Wood Side" -- Truss Rod)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-147 1878 Hopper Car (Old Time)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-148 RI (Silver) Express Box Car 20067 ("Aluminum Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-149 Union Tank Car (Black) 7827

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-150 Hercules Powder (Red) Tank Car

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-151 DX 2-Dome Tank Car (Silver)      (Old Time)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-152 Shippers Car Line Tank Car (Black & Yellow)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-153 Kingan Reliable Ham Reefer 825 ("Wood Side" -- Truss Rod)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-154 Domestic Water Tank Car (Red) 48

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-155 Domestic Water Tank Car (Black)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-156 CM&StL Wheel Lat Cat w/Wheels

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-157 Rail & Tie Flat Car

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-158 NYC Hi-Side Gondola (Red)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-159 D&RGW Hi-Side Gondola (Black)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-160 Meyer-Kornblum Reefer 119 ("Wood Side" -- Truss Rod)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-162 MDT Reefer 21410 ("Steel Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-163 Henderson Produce Reefer 3500 ("Steel Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-168 N.K. Fairbank Box Car 2013 ("Wood Side" -- Truss Rod)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO-      Farmers' Co-Op "Pellican Butter" Reefer 6298 ("Steel Side")

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                   *Kit could be built for either of two roads; came with tw different roadname plaques and an assortment of road numbers to choose from.

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 **Kit came with an assortment of road name numbers to choose from.

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Early (Period) Passenger Cars:

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P- 1  1850 Era Pay Car

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P- 3  1880 Era Business Car 62'

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P- 5  1880 Era Coach

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P- 8  1900 Era Chair Car, Wide Closed Vesitible

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P- 9  1890 Era Baggage Express Car

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P-11 1870 Era Baggage-Mail Car, Open Vestible

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P-13 1890 Era Round-Top Window Coach

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P-15 1850 Era Central Pacific Coach

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P-17 1890 Era U.S. Postal Car

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P-19 1864 Era Pullman Palace Sleeper

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P-21 1890 Era Shorty Observation

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P-23 1890 Era Combine

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P-25 1864 Era Pullman Palace Diner "Linda"

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P-27 1890 Era Exposition Car

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P-29 1890 Royal Blue Coach (B&O)

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P-31 Ringling Bros Advance Car

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P-33 3-Way Passenger Caboose

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P-35 Shorty Combine Caboose 33'

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P-37 Shorty Baggage

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P-39 Shorty Coach

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     P-41 1890 Era Observation

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Narrow Gauge -- H0n3 -- Freight Cars:

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     N- 2  D&RGW Box Car

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     N- 4  1878 Era Nevada County Narrow Gauge Hopper

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     N- 6   Rio Grande Southern Stock car

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     N- 7  Colorado Southern Reefer

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     N-10 Southern Pacific (Wood) Box Car

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     N-12 D&RGW Dual Gauge Coupler Car -- w/H0 Trucks

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     N-14 D&RGW Stock Car

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     N-16 DSP&PRR (Denver, South Park & Pacific) "Southpark" Reefer

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     N-18 Tiffany Summer & Winter Reefer

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     N-20 East Broad Top (Wood) Box Car

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     N-22 Side Door Caboose (Undecorated) -- for H0 or H0n3 Trucks

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     N-24 Colorado & Suthern (Wood) Box Car  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                g  END h

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                That about wraps it up, Chuck -- you can file it all when you get a chance, thanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ray Wetzel

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11963
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Ray F.W.  Glad I could contribute a bit.  Laconia's use of those sequential numbers was unusual.  I appreciated seeing those pre-WW 2 kit listings, and they confrmed the existance of a standard reefer-type dry ice model (which I missed on eBay once) as well as another DL&W reefer for me to find.  As far as early dry-ice reefers go, I believe that Earl Francis offered one as the painting instruction in another of his reefer kits I have also covers a dry ice reefer, and I have a passable photo of another with matching labeled box from an outfit called Vann's.   W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi W Jay W.,  Many thanks again -- your input is a big help towards 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> completing these road numbers.  While Laconia always used sequential numbers, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> there's no way of knowing otherwise whether the BR-2 Merchants Biscuits (for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> instance) kits were numbered 3903, 3904 and 3905 or whether they were numbered 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 3905, 3906 and 3907 as you've proven to be the case.  This is most helpful 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> for those collecting this line.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11964
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: A bit more on P. Moore & Vintage Traction
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi All,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
When I was searching though the 1949 issues of Model Railroder the other night for other information, I noticed that Paul Moore was offering his various traction kits and plans at that time, and he continued well into the 1960's if not later.  His kits had card sides, white metal details and sometimes ends, I belived, but have not confirmed that the cast details used in his kits were stock Walthers castings, purchased in bulk.  As I mentioned earlier, HOSeeker has a wealth of his catalogs and plans.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
While traction and trolley modeling is not a focus here, there are a couple vintage diecast metal traction models that I have included in my collection as they were quite popular and seen on many layouts.  They are the PCC, Indianna RR high speed interurban and the Brill trolley (which I don't have), first introduced by Herman Eschadore's(sp?) Pennsylvania Scale Models.  Very accurate, with a special motor by Pittman, they along with the "baby" Trainmaster, later became part of Bowser's line after an intermediate firm's ownership.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
The PSM PCC car was introduced circa 1949, and is celebrating its 60th anniversary in production as a HO model (with updated drive) this year! (Bowser is bringing in new, all plastic San Francisco versions from China now, as well, though).
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi Brad S., and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi Brad S., Here are some photos of a group of assembled Paul Moore gas electrics that were sold as one lot on eBay a while back.  The Little Scoot is at lower right of the first photo, and at bottom of second.   I did not purchase this lot, and not my photos, so am just posting them here for educational viewing instead of in a permanent album.  W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11965
						From: corlissbs
						Date: 10/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks, Jay.  Those would have been a great buy.  They are realy nice.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11966
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Pennsylvania Scale Models
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi W Jay W, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I was 
reading one of your post where you talked about Pennsylvania Scale Models and 
the many Trolley type cast items including the H16-44 "Baby Trainmaster". 
Now that is what the company PSM called them and is still referred to by 
Bowser after Lew English took these items over. NOT ME
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     The reason I am writing 
this is your mention of Herman Eschador and his relationship to PSM. Please fill 
me in on what you know about this name. I will explain the reason I would like 
to know below and why the pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Back in January of 1998 I wrote 
an  2 page article about PA Scale Models for the newsletter of the 
HOSC&H-SIG. The reason I wrote it is the company, PSM, originally started in 
Pottsville Pa which is only 15 miles from me. I was able to find many facts out 
about the company in general some of which I will try to write here. The one 
outstanding fact was the first owners name was never found even though I 
contacted the Pottsville Historical society who didn't even know that PSM 
produced HO in Pottsville. Can you verify the name you mention as being the 
original owner.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                   Let me try to write some of the 
important facts I did find out. The original building located at 14 S.Centre 
Street is no longer there. Centre St is the main street in Pottsville. The 
building was a two story, mostly brick building that was sandwiched between 2 
other building but did run long ways from street to alley. The lower floor was 
where the PSM items were made and assembled. Even the metal body castings were 
done here.  While a motor was specifically developed for PSM it was made 
elsewhere. A number of ladies assembled the items. (I'm not sure if this meant 
box the parts and / or assembled finished items) The upper floor was a 
photography studio called Tiffany's also know as the  "Outlet".  Both 
businesses had the same phone number. It was 3446 up till 1957 when it became 
622-1280. PSM was located their from 1950-1957 when it was bought out. I 
have to assume the same person owned both businesses.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    The second owner was a Mr. Felix 
Bass who moved the entire production to P O Box 289 Ashland NJ  
While I have his address and phone number I will not pass it on as I don't have 
permission.. I talked a number of times with Mr. Bass especially about the 
Pottsville produced PSM and he couldn't remember the name of the first owner. He 
did fill me in on a lot of information both from the Pottsville location and 
when he acquired it. He told me that unlike the Pottsville PSM, which cast their 
own bodies, he had them made at a small shop in Gloucester NJ  but is no 
longer there. He also told me that Quaker City Gear Works of Gulph Mills PA made 
all the gears for the drives when he owned the company. Mr. Bass said two part 
time ladies assembled the Trollies in his shop with no mention of the so 
called "Baby Trainmaster"  He could not recall where the other parts were 
made. He then sold everything to Lew English / Bowser who continued to 
produce all the same items.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                   I could go into all the box styles and 
sizes plus the different paperwork that came with the PSM items including more 
facts but it is a lot to copy and I am prone to mistakes. ( Can't scan ) However 
along with the pictures of the casting bearing the Pottsville PSM name ( I don't 
know if Mr. Bass took it off or changed it to Ashland NJ ) I have shown 
instruction sheets from both locations, including the H16-44 diesel, the trolley cars, the drives and motors. 
HOseeker has paperwork also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Some of this information 
appears in the Bowser catalog as far as acquisition. While there is more I 
have learned most came from historical record, fellow train collectors and 
Mr. Bass himself. I have letters to back this up besides phone 
calls.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                      So I need one 
important fact. Was this Mr. Herman Eschadore the original owner of the 
Pottsville production for the PSM items and where did you get that 
information   ?????
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11967
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Scale Models
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
That is a facinating account of PSM's days in Pottsville. I like to read of the backgrounds of the compainies and their founders, as it sometimes provides insight as to what models they produced and why they chose a particular method of production or material. (I was not familiar with Mr. Bass name as the second owner, but knew of the town's name, Ashland, NJ -south NJ).
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Hal Carstens mentioned Herman Eschador and his developments and line quite often in RMC's Dispatcher's reports over those early years.  In his book, 150 Years of Train Models, he lists Herman by name as one of the 1956 Members of the Eastern Model Railroad Manufacturers Association, on page 93: "Pennsylvania Scale Models, Pottsville, PA (Herman Eschador), HO diecast trolleys".  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I seem to remember one of the early magazines (RMC) had his photo as well, (showing a tiny, one truck double ended PCC that was built just for fun) and tells of his development of the PCC and drive, Pittman manufacturing the motor to his design.  I will add him to my list of what to look for in my journeys through the magazines and give you the specific references as I find them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
LOL! I hesitated when I used the nickmame "Baby Trainmaster" instead of H-16-44, as technically, the "Baby" TM was the six-axle 1600 hp. version, the H-16-66, but figured most would know what HO model I was referring to.  To confuse the matter further, I have read and heard people labeling the six-axle H-16-66, the "Junior Trainmaster" now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
W.Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi W Jay W, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>         I was reading one of your post where you talked about Pennsylvania Scale Models and the many Trolley type cast items including the H16-44 "Baby Trainmaster". Now that is what the company PSM called them and is still referred to by Bowser after Lew English took these items over. NOT ME
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>      The reason I am writing this is your mention of Herman Eschador and his relationship to PSM. Please fill me in on what you know about this name. I will explain the reason I would like to know below and why the pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     Back in January of 1998 I wrote an  2 page article about PA Scale Models for the newsletter of the HOSC&H-SIG. The reason I wrote it is the company, PSM, originally started in Pottsville Pa which is only 15 miles from me. I was able to find many facts out about the company in general some of which I will try to write here. The one outstanding fact was the first owners name was never found even though I contacted the Pottsville Historical society who didn't even know that PSM produced HO in Pottsville. Can you verify the name you mention as being the original owner.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>    Let me try to write some of the important facts I did find out. The original building located at 14 S.Centre Street is no longer there. Centre St is the main street in Pottsville. The building was a two story, mostly brick building that was sandwiched between 2 other building but did run long ways from street to alley. The lower floor was where the PSM items were made and assembled. Even the metal body castings were done here.  While a motor was specifically developed for PSM it was made elsewhere. A number of ladies assembled the items. (I'm not sure if this meant box the parts and / or assembled finished items) The upper floor was a photography studio called Tiffany's also know as the  "Outlet".  Both businesses had the same phone number. It was 3446 up till 1957 when it became 622-1280. PSM was located their from 1950-1957 when it was bought out. I have to assume the same person owned both businesses.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     The second owner was a Mr. Felix Bass who moved the entire production to P O Box 289 Ashland NJ  While I have his address and phone number I will not pass it on as I don't have permission.. I talked a number of times with Mr. Bass especially about the Pottsville produced PSM and he couldn't remember the name of the first owner. He did fill me in on a lot of information both from the Pottsville location and when he acquired it. He told me that unlike the Pottsville PSM, which cast their own bodies, he had them made at a small shop in Gloucester NJ  but is no longer there. He also told me that Quaker City Gear Works of Gulph Mills PA made all the gears for the drives when he owned the company. Mr. Bass said two part time ladies assembled the Trollies in his shop with no mention of the so called "Baby Trainmaster"  He could not recall where the other parts were made. He then sold everything to Lew English / Bowser who continued to produce all the same items.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>    I could go into all the box styles and sizes plus the different paperwork that came with the PSM items including more facts but it is a lot to copy and I am prone to mistakes. ( Can't scan ) However along with the pictures of the casting bearing the Pottsville PSM name ( I don't know if Mr. Bass took it off or changed it to Ashland NJ ) I have shown instruction sheets from both locations, including the H16-44 diesel, the trolley cars, the drives and motors. HOseeker has paperwork also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     Some of this information appears in the Bowser catalog as far as acquisition. While there is more I have learned most came from historical record, fellow train collectors and Mr. Bass himself. I have letters to back this up besides phone calls.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>       So I need one important fact. Was this Mr. Herman Eschadore the original owner of the Pottsville production for the PSM items and where did you get that information   ?????
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                                                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11968
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Scale Models
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      W Jay 
W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Glad you 
enjoyed the story. Thought it might be interesting. If you want a copy of it in 
it's entirety I'll send it to you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                       I think I 
mentioned that I never read MR or RMC over the years. I was kind of an HO 
hermit. Then when I decided to share neither seemed interested at the time so I 
said what the heck. They don't need me and I don't need them. That is why I 
missed any mention of Herman Eschadore. It's odd that no other members of other 
HO groups ever brought this fact out. Hey it completes my article.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                       As for 
the words Baby Trainmaster being applied to this H-16-44. I wanted members 
reading the story to know I was not coining the name. This happens a lot in 
HO where the company mislabels it's own item. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 1:51 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Pennsylvania 
  Scale Models
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jim H.,

                                                                                                                                                                                                That is a facinating account of PSM's days in Pottsville. 
  I like to read of the backgrounds of the compainies and their founders, as it 
  sometimes provides insight as to what models they produced and why they chose 
  a particular method of production or material. (I was not familiar with Mr. 
  Bass name as the second owner, but knew of the town's name, Ashland, NJ -south 
  NJ).

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hal Carstens mentioned Herman Eschador and his developments and 
  line quite often in RMC's Dispatcher's reports over those early years. In his 
  book, 150 Years of Train Models, he lists Herman by name as one of the 1956 
  Members of the Eastern Model Railroad Manufacturers Association, on page 93: 
  "Pennsylvania Scale Models, Pottsville, PA (Herman Eschador), HO diecast 
  trolleys". 

                                                                                                                                                                                                I seem to remember one of the early magazines (RMC) had his 
  photo as well, (showing a tiny, one truck double ended PCC that was built just 
  for fun) and tells of his development of the PCC and drive, Pittman 
  manufacturing the motor to his design. I will add him to my list of what to 
  look for in my journeys through the magazines and give you the specific 
  references as I find them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                LOL! I hesitated when I used the nickmame 
  "Baby Trainmaster" instead of H-16-44, as technically, the "Baby" TM was the 
  six-axle 1600 hp. version, the H-16-66, but figured most would know what HO 
  model I was referring to. To confuse the matter further, I have read and heard 
  people labeling the six-axle H-16-66, the "Junior Trainmaster" 
  now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                W.Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi W Jay W, 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I was reading one of your post where you talked about 
  Pennsylvania Scale Models and the many Trolley type cast items including the 
  H16-44 "Baby Trainmaster" . Now that is what the company PSM called them 
  and is still referred to by Bowser after Lew English took these items over. 
  NOT ME
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > The reason I am writing this is your mention of Herman 
  Eschador and his relationship to PSM. Please fill me in on what you know about 
  this name. I will explain the reason I would like to know below and why the 
  pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Back in January of 1998 I wrote an 2 page article 
  about PA Scale Models for the newsletter of the HOSC&H-SIG. The reason I 
  wrote it is the company, PSM, originally started in Pottsville Pa which is 
  only 15 miles from me. I was able to find many facts out about the company in 
  general some of which I will try to write here. The one outstanding fact was 
  the first owners name was never found even though I contacted the Pottsville 
  Historical society who didn't even know that PSM produced HO in Pottsville. 
  Can you verify the name you mention as being the original owner.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Let me try to write some of the important facts I did find out. The 
  original building located at 14 S.Centre Street is no longer there. Centre St 
  is the main street in Pottsville. The building was a two story, mostly brick 
  building that was sandwiched between 2 other building but did run long ways 
  from street to alley. The lower floor was where the PSM items were made and 
  assembled. Even the metal body castings were done here. While a motor was 
  specifically developed for PSM it was made elsewhere. A number of ladies 
  assembled the items. (I'm not sure if this meant box the parts and / or 
  assembled finished items) The upper floor was a photography studio called 
  Tiffany's also know as the "Outlet". Both businesses had the same phone 
  number. It was 3446 up till 1957 when it became 622-1280. PSM was located 
  their from 1950-1957 when it was bought out. I have to assume the same person 
  owned both businesses.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > The second owner was a Mr. Felix Bass 
  who moved the entire production to P O Box 289 Ashland NJ While I have his 
  address and phone number I will not pass it on as I don't have permission.. I 
  talked a number of times with Mr. Bass especially about the Pottsville 
  produced PSM and he couldn't remember the name of the first owner. He did fill 
  me in on a lot of information both from the Pottsville location and when he 
  acquired it. He told me that unlike the Pottsville PSM, which cast their own 
  bodies, he had them made at a small shop in Gloucester NJ but is no longer 
  there. He also told me that Quaker City Gear Works of Gulph Mills PA made all 
  the gears for the drives when he owned the company. Mr. Bass said two part 
  time ladies assembled the Trollies in his shop with no mention of the so 
  called "Baby Trainmaster" He could not recall where the other parts were made. 
  He then sold everything to Lew English / Bowser who continued to produce all 
  the same items.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I could go into all the box styles and sizes 
  plus the different paperwork that came with the PSM items including more facts 
  but it is a lot to copy and I am prone to mistakes. ( Can't scan ) However 
  along with the pictures of the casting bearing the Pottsville PSM name ( I 
  don't know if Mr. Bass took it off or changed it to Ashland NJ ) I have shown 
  instruction sheets from both locations, including the H16-44 diesel, the 
  trolley cars, the drives and motors. HOseeker has paperwork also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Some of this information appears in the Bowser catalog as far as 
  acquisition. While there is more I have learned most came from historical 
  record, fellow train collectors and Mr. Bass himself. I have letters to back 
  this up besides phone calls.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > So I need one important fact. 
  Was this Mr. Herman Eschadore the original owner of the Pottsville production 
  for the PSM items and where did you get that information ?????
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                >

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11969
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Scale Models
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim H, W Jay W.,  Most hobbyists refer to the Fairbanks Morse 4-axle H-16-44 most commonly as the Baby Trainmaster, whether right or wrong.  It's often written in literature this way, although the six-axle H-16-66 is also called the Baby Trainmaster at times.  Just as often though, the H-16-66 is referrred to as the Junior Trainmaster.  Perhaps anything smaller than the "full size" H-24-66 is considered as a "baby" version of this larger one.  I know anyone I've ever spoken to calls the H-16-44 by the name of Baby Trainmaster if that's any help.  Ray F.W.     
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11970
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Photos [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just getting 
time to fully go over some back messages. I checked these pictures out. That is 
a nice "set" of items. Actually eye catching and looking in great shape. I don't 
check out Ebay real  hard and missed these but would have bid if seen. 
It doesn't matter they are gas electrics or would even be trolleys to me as they 
are very collectable. Do you happen to remember what they went for   
?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 11:11 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Paul Moore "Little 
  Scoot" Photos [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Brad S., and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Brad S., Here are some photos of a group of 
  assembled Paul Moore gas electrics that were sold as one lot on eBay a while 
  back.  The Little Scoot is at lower right of the first photo, and at 
  bottom of second.   I did not purchase this lot, and not my photos, 
  so am just posting them here for educational viewing instead of in a 
  permanent album.  W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11971
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 10/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Scale Models [5 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                So far as the H-16-44 FM unit is concerned, I have one of these, made by Boweser, but inside, under the hood, it still said 'Penna Scale Models'. Does this date the casting at all?

                                                                                                                                                                                                The hobby shop that had it (I bought it all of three years ago, the owner of the shop said it was designed to fit on Athearn F unit frames. It does, and does fit well, but apparently in Jim's photos, there was a dedicated frame and mechanism made too?

                                                                                                                                                                                                In any event, on an older Athearn frame and motor, it runs quite well!

                                                                                                                                                                                                -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- On Tue, 10/6/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Pennsylvania Scale Models [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                To:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Tuesday, October 6, 2009, 11:30 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
      
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi W Jay W, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I was 
reading one of your post where you talked about Pennsylvania Scale Models and 
the many Trolley type cast items including the H16-44 "Baby Trainmaster" . 
Now that is what the company PSM called them and is still referred to by 
Bowser after Lew English took these items over. NOT ME
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     The reason I am writing 
this is your mention of Herman Eschador and his relationship to PSM. Please fill 
me in on what you know about this name. I will explain the reason I would like 
to know below and why the pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Back in January of 1998 I wrote 
an  2 page article about PA Scale Models for the newsletter of the 
HOSC&H-SIG. The reason I wrote it is the company, PSM, originally started in 
Pottsville Pa which is only 15 miles from me. I was able to find many facts out 
about the company in general some of which I will try to write here. The one 
outstanding fact was the first owners name was never found even though I 
contacted the Pottsville Historical society who didn't even know that PSM 
produced HO in Pottsville. Can you verify the name you mention as being the 
original owner.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                   Let me try to write some of the 
important facts I did find out. The original building located at 14 S.Centre 
Street is no longer there. Centre St is the main street in Pottsville. The 
building was a two story, mostly brick building that was sandwiched between 2 
other building but did run long ways from street to alley. The lower floor was 
where the PSM items were made and assembled. Even the metal body castings were 
done here.  While a motor was specifically developed for PSM it was made 
elsewhere. A number of ladies assembled the items. (I'm not sure if this meant 
box the parts and / or assembled finished items) The upper floor was a 
photography studio called Tiffany's also know as the  "Outlet".  Both 
businesses had the same phone number. It was 3446 up till 1957 when it became 
622-1280. PSM was located their from 1950-1957 when it was bought out. I 
have to assume the same person owned both businesses.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    The second owner was a Mr. Felix 
Bass who moved the entire production to P O Box 289 Ashland NJ  
While I have his address and phone number I will not pass it on as I don't have 
permission.. I talked a number of times with Mr. Bass especially about the 
Pottsville produced PSM and he couldn't remember the name of the first owner. He 
did fill me in on a lot of information both from the Pottsville location and 
when he acquired it. He told me that unlike the Pottsville PSM, which cast their 
own bodies, he had them made at a small shop in Gloucester NJ  but is no 
longer there. He also told me that Quaker City Gear Works of Gulph Mills PA made 
all the gears for the drives when he owned the company. Mr. Bass said two part 
time ladies assembled the Trollies in his shop with no mention of the so 
called "Baby Trainmaster"  He could not recall where the other parts were 
made. He then sold everything to Lew English / Bowser who continued to 
produce all the same items.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                   I could go into all the box styles and 
sizes plus the different paperwork that came with the PSM items including more 
facts but it is a lot to copy and I am prone to mistakes. ( Can't scan ) However 
along with the pictures of the casting bearing the Pottsville PSM name ( I don't 
know if Mr. Bass took it off or changed it to Ashland NJ ) I have shown 
instruction sheets from both locations, including the H16-44 diesel, the trolley cars, the drives and motors. 
HOseeker has paperwork also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Some of this information 
appears in the Bowser catalog as far as acquisition. While there is more I 
have learned most came from historical record, fellow train collectors and 
Mr. Bass himself. I have letters to back this up besides phone 
calls.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                      So I need one 
important fact. Was this Mr. Herman Eschadore the original owner of the 
Pottsville production for the PSM items and where did you get that 
information   ?????
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11972
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Scale Models
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                            
This bit of information was sent to me and I can't confirm it.  
"Bowser (Lew English ) changed this lettering to read  Penna Scale 
Models  over  Bowser  instead of over  Pottsville Pa. 
 As I don't have a Bowser body I can't be sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Could there be bodies out 
there that just say Penna Scale Models having neither Pottsville or Bowser under 
it is possible too. Transitional pieces maybe. Possibility that when the bodies 
were made for the Ashland NJ site Mr. Bass took the Pottsville 
name off. Again guesses and assumptions with no collaboration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 5:49 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Pennsylvania 
  Scale Models
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
      So far as the H-16-44 FM unit is concerned, I have one of 
        these, made by Boweser, but inside, under the hood, it still said 'Penna 
        Scale Models'. Does this date the casting at all?

                                                                                                                                                                                                The hobby shop 
        that had it (I bought it all of three years ago, the owner of the shop 
        said it was designed to fit on Athearn F unit frames. It does, and does 
        fit well, but apparently in Jim's photos, there was a dedicated frame 
        and mechanism made too?

                                                                                                                                                                                                In any event, on an older Athearn frame 
        and motor, it runs quite well!

                                                                                                                                                                                                -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- On 
        Tue, 10/6/09, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> 
        wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        

                                                                                                                                                                                                From: 
          jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] 
          Pennsylvania Scale Models [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: 
          vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Tuesday, October 6, 2009, 
          11:30 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi W Jay W, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                       
           I was reading one of your post where you talked about 
          Pennsylvania Scale Models and the many Trolley type cast 
          items including the H16-44 "Baby Trainmaster" . Now that is what 
          the company PSM called them and is still referred to by Bowser 
          after Lew English took these items over. NOT ME
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                     The reason I am 
          writing this is your mention of Herman Eschador and his relationship 
          to PSM. Please fill me in on what you know about this name. I will 
          explain the reason I would like to know below and why the 
          pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Back in January of 
          1998 I wrote an  2 page article about PA Scale Models for the 
          newsletter of the HOSC&H-SIG. The reason I wrote it is the 
          company, PSM, originally started in Pottsville Pa which is only 15 
          miles from me. I was able to find many facts out about the company in 
          general some of which I will try to write here. The one outstanding 
          fact was the first owners name was never found even though I contacted 
          the Pottsville Historical society who didn't even know that PSM 
          produced HO in Pottsville. Can you verify the name you mention as 
          being the original owner.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   Let me try to write 
          some of the important facts I did find out. The original building 
          located at 14 S.Centre Street is no longer there. Centre St is the 
          main street in Pottsville. The building was a two story, mostly brick 
          building that was sandwiched between 2 other building but did run long 
          ways from street to alley. The lower floor was where the PSM items 
          were made and assembled. Even the metal body castings were done here. 
           While a motor was specifically developed for PSM it was made 
          elsewhere. A number of ladies assembled the items. (I'm not sure if 
          this meant box the parts and / or assembled finished items) The upper 
          floor was a photography studio called Tiffany's also know as the  
          "Outlet".  Both businesses had the same phone number. It was 3446 
          up till 1957 when it became 622-1280. PSM was located their from 
          1950-1957 when it was bought out. I have to assume the same 
          person owned both businesses.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                    The second owner was a 
          Mr. Felix Bass who moved the entire production to P O 
          Box 289 Ashland NJ  While I have his address and phone 
          number I will not pass it on as I don't have permission.. I talked a 
          number of times with Mr. Bass especially about the Pottsville produced 
          PSM and he couldn't remember the name of the first owner. He did fill 
          me in on a lot of information both from the Pottsville location and 
          when he acquired it. He told me that unlike the Pottsville PSM, which 
          cast their own bodies, he had them made at a small shop in Gloucester 
          NJ  but is no longer there. He also told me that Quaker City Gear 
          Works of Gulph Mills PA made all the gears for the drives when he 
          owned the company. Mr. Bass said two part time ladies assembled the 
          Trollies in his shop with no mention of the so called "Baby 
          Trainmaster"  He could not recall where the other parts were 
          made. He then sold everything to Lew English / Bowser who 
          continued to produce all the same items.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   I could go into all the box 
          styles and sizes plus the different paperwork that came with the PSM 
          items including more facts but it is a lot to copy and I am prone to 
          mistakes. ( Can't scan ) However along with the pictures of the 
          casting bearing the Pottsville PSM name ( I don't know if Mr. Bass 
          took it off or changed it to Ashland NJ ) I have shown 
          instruction sheets from both locations, including the H16-44 diesel, the trolley cars, the drives 
          and motors. HOseeker has paperwork also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Some of this 
          information appears in the Bowser catalog as far as acquisition. While 
          there is more I have learned most came from historical record, 
          fellow train collectors and Mr. Bass himself. I have letters to 
          back this up besides phone calls.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                      So I need 
          one important fact. Was this Mr. Herman Eschadore the original owner 
          of the Pottsville production for the PSM items and where did you 
          get that information   ?????
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11973
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 10/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: New Photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I promised to load some pics similar to moving overhead crane beams on  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
flatcars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I've made the PHOTO folder,  'Heavy Loads tie-downs'. There are some  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
mining crawlers in shipping that are similar in size and shape to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
crane bridge beams as well as some longer and taller parts on drop  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
bottom cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
You'll find close-ups of the wood beams they sit on, the home-made  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
anchor braces, and the tie-down rods they are locked to the cars with.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I think you'll find them to be an education in how the prototype ties  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
down huge items and very model-able.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Sometime later, I'll have the book-scans and other pics of the in- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
service overhead aisle cranes showing the drives, trolleys,  and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
electrical cabinets mounted on the balconies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11974
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Photos [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jim, yes that was the work of a talented modeler.  I double checked my file, and while I usually keep a record of prices realized and sale #, did not on this one.  It did go high as I remeber, at least in the $200-$300 range I believe, well out of what I could consider.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>           Just getting time to fully go over some back messages. I checked these pictures out. That is a nice "set" of items. Actually eye catching and looking in great shape. I don't check out Ebay real  hard and missed these but would have bid if seen. It doesn't matter they are gas electrics or would even be trolleys to me as they are very collectable. Do you happen to remember what they went for   ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                                           Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   From: Jay Wanczyk 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 11:11 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Photos [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     [Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Hi Brad S., and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Hi Brad S., Here are some photos of a group of assembled Paul Moore gas electrics that were sold as one lot on eBay a while back.  The Little Scoot is at lower right of the first photo, and at bottom of second.   I did not purchase this lot, and not my photos, so am just posting them here for educational viewing instead of in a permanent album.  W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11975
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Photos
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Thanks for the response. They would have been nice to add to any vintage 
collection. As to cost I wanted an idea what people felt they were worth. When 
an item that isn't seen to much, especially this condition,  is bought or 
sold on Ebay it gives you a little idea of value. While not a bench mark it 
helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Over the years I was VERY 
cost conscious as I put together my collection. I'm no different then others. I 
want to buy as low as possible and although I don't sell I would like the best 
return.  Unlike some other gauges HO is still a little in it's infancy when 
it comes to price range. It is more how bad you want the item versus how much 
you are willing to pay.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    As my collection has grown and 
certain pieces I want for it are still out there I am willing to go a 
little higher to get them. That's my way and doesn't mean others do it that way. 
Sorry but it's not always a case of there will be another one. Take Trackside 
Specialties items for one ( there are others ). I was lucky to find 3 different 
completed painted electrics. Since there were small productions of these 
engines 50, 48 and 20  how often might you see them available ANYWHERE. 
While I was originally able to get them from a private collector at a very nice price I do have to wonder, as more people learn 
about them, how high they might go in the future. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     My thought's 
only.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 9:37 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Paul Moore 
  "Little Scoot" Photos
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jim, yes that was the work of a talented modeler. I double checked my 
  file, and while I usually keep a record of prices realized and sale #, did not 
  on this one. It did go high as I remeber, at least in the $200-$300 range I 
  believe, well out of what I could consider. W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Just getting time to fully go over some back messages. I checked 
  these pictures out. That is a nice "set" of items. Actually eye catching and 
  looking in great shape. I don't check out Ebay real hard and missed these but 
  would have bid if seen. It doesn't matter they are gas electrics or would even 
  be trolleys to me as they are very collectable. Do you happen to remember what 
  they went for ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > ----- Original Message 
  ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: Jay Wanczyk 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 11:11 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Photos [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
  [Attachment( s) from Jay Wanczyk included below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi Brad S., and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi Brad S., Here are 
  some photos of a group of assembled Paul Moore gas electrics that were sold as 
  one lot on eBay a while back. The Little Scoot is at lower right of the first 
  photo, and at bottom of second. I did not purchase this lot, and not my 
  photos, so am just posting them here for educational viewing instead of in a 
  permanent album. W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11976
						From: RalphB
						Date: 10/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: F-M Train Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm with Ray as far as the H-16-66 being "Junior" and the H-16-44 being "Baby," but let's get one thing straight.  A Trainmaster (one word) is a railroad supervisory employee; I had a couple of them as bosses in my early days on the railroad.  The locomotive produced by Fairbanks-Morse & Co., the H-24-66, was the Train Master (two words).
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I have a couple of Athearn Train Maters and a Bachmann Spectrum "Baby" Train Master.  One of the Athearns is slated to become a "Junior" Train Master, hopefully before I die.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray F.W. wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Most hobbyists refer to the Fairbanks Morse 4-axle H-16-44 most commonly as the Baby Trainmaster....  It's often written in literature this way, although the six-axle H-16-66 is also called the Baby Trainmaster at times.  Just as often though, the H-16-66 is referrred to as the Junior Trainmaster.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> anyone I've ever spoken to calls the H-16-44 by the name of Baby Trainmaster if that's any help.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11977
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: F-M Train Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Ralph B,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I didn't work 
for a railroad nor am I up on employees of real railroads.  As far as what 
is right Train Master or Trainmaster concerning the original  H-16-44 
Penna. Scale HO Model and on to the Bowser version.  I stated I called 
it what the HO manufacturing company called it.  Bowser catalog 
states  "F M Baby Trainmaster H-16-44 ".  One word.   
Page 48 of the 10th reference manual edition.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: 
  RalphB 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 2:04 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: F-M Train 
  Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm with Ray as far as the H-16-66 being "Junior" and the H-16-44 being 
  "Baby," but let's get one thing straight. A Trainmaster (one word) is a 
  railroad supervisory employee; I had a couple of them as bosses in my early 
  days on the railroad. The locomotive produced by Fairbanks-Morse & Co., 
  the H-24-66, was the Train Master (two words).

                                                                                                                                                                                                I have a couple of 
  Athearn Train Maters and a Bachmann Spectrum "Baby" Train Master. One of the 
  Athearns is slated to become a "Junior" Train Master, hopefully before I 
  die.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Ray F.W. wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Most hobbyists refer to the Fairbanks Morse 
  4-axle H-16-44 most commonly as the Baby Trainmaster. ... It's often 
  written in literature this way, although the six-axle H-16-66 is also called 
  the Baby Trainmaster at times. Just as often though, the H-16-66 is referrred 
  to as the Junior Trainmaster.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > anyone I've ever spoken to calls the 
  H-16-44 by the name of Baby Trainmaster if that's any help. Ray 
  F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11978
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 10/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: F-M Train Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>       I didn't work for a railroad nor am I up on employees of real 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> railroads.  As far as what is right Train Master or Trainmaster 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> concerning the original  H-16-44 Penna. Scale HO Model and on to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Bowser version.  I stated I called it what the HO manufacturing company 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> called it.  Bowser catalog states  "F M Baby Trainmaster H-16-44 ".  One 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> word.   Page 48 of the 10th reference manual edition.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    The entry in my Diesel Spotter's Guide, 1st Edition, 2nd Printing 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
(1968) says it the Train Master.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
"What is a 'free' gift? Aren't all gifts free?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    -Stephen Wright
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11979
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: F-M Train Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Rick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I'm not trying to make 
this thread longer nor start anything. I don't disagree with what you 
or Ralph B say but this is a site for HO trains not real railroads. To stay true 
to what I was talking about originally I must state what the HO 
manufacturer calls it, right or wrong. My original story / email said 
that when it said NOT ME as to how the engine in the story was described. 
Actually as Ralph pointed out his use of the word Baby, pertaining to the F M 
H-16-44, is wrong but he feels comfortable to use it and again I have 
no problem with that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     The original story was not 
meant to create a problem. Thanks for the input and clarifing this particular 
point for the real engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: 
  Rick 
  Jones 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 3:25 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: F-M Train 
  Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I didn't work for a railroad nor am I 
  up on employees of real 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > railroads. As far as what is right Train 
  Master or Trainmaster 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > concerning the original H-16-44 Penna. Scale HO 
  Model and on to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Bowser version. I stated I called it what the HO 
  manufacturing company 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > called it. Bowser catalog states "F M Baby 
  Trainmaster H-16-44 ". One 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > word. Page 48 of the 10th reference manual 
  edition.

                                                                                                                                                                                                The entry in my Diesel Spotter's Guide, 1st Edition, 2nd 
  Printing 
                                                                                                                                                                                                (1968) says it the Train Master.

                                                                                                                                                                                                -- 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Rick 
  Jones

                                                                                                                                                                                                "What is a 'free' gift? Aren't all gifts free?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                -Stephen 
  Wright
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11980
						From: Walter Bayer
						Date: 10/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: F-M Train Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                



 


 
 
 
 
 


                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11981
						From: Chris B
						Date: 10/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: F-M Train Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                fwiw, the way this group is focused on its named topic consistently makes it more fun.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                I don't write to stir this pot, I just very much enjoy how this group is always consistent on this point.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Some of  the rr historical groups I monitor either quietly tolerate or openly frown on modeling threads about the chosen prototype rr of the group.  Some other groups are more modeler friendly, but the real rr is always the main focus.  And mainline vintage toy or model train groups would seem to be either all larger scale or exclusively high end brass collectors.

                                                                                                                                                                                                There's plenty of forums for sharing info about real railroads, but only one place I can learn about every possible variation of Binkley boxes, or early die cast american made HO scale steam engines, just to
 pick two examples.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                So here's to calling 'em whatever the firm that made them and sold them called 'em!

                                                                                                                                                                                                 Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                                From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wed, October 7, 2009 3:59:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: F-M Train Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)

                                                                                                                                                                                                






 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Rick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I'm not trying to make 
this thread longer nor start anything. I don't disagree with what you 
or Ralph B say but this is a site for HO trains not real railroads. To stay true 
to what I was talking about originally I must state what the HO 
manufacturer calls it, right or wrong. My original story / email said 
that when it said NOT ME as to how the engine in the story was described. 
Actually as Ralph pointed out his use of the word Baby, pertaining to the F M 
H-16-44, is wrong but he feels comfortable to use it and again I have 
no problem with that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     The original story was not 
meant to create a problem. Thanks for the input and clarifing this particular 
point for the real engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: 
  Rick 
  Jones 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 3:25 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: F-M Train 
  Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I didn't work for a railroad nor am I 
  up on employees of real 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > railroads. As far as what is right Train 
  Master or Trainmaster 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > concerning the original H-16-44 Penna. Scale HO 
  Model and on to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Bowser version. I stated I called it what the HO 
  manufacturing company 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > called it. Bowser catalog states "F M Baby 
  Trainmaster H-16-44 ". One 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > word. Page 48 of the 10th reference manual 
  edition.

                                                                                                                                                                                                The entry in my Diesel Spotter's Guide, 1st Edition, 2nd 
  Printing 
                                                                                                                                                                                                (1968) says it the Train Master.

                                                                                                                                                                                                -- 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Rick 
  Jones

                                                                                                                                                                                                "What is a 'free' gift? Aren't all gifts free?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                -Stephen 
  Wright
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


	
	

                                                                                                                                                                                                

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11982
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 10/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: A bit more on P. Moore & Vintage Traction
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                For what it is worth (Shameless self-advertisement plug here), I have a Paul Moore interurban dummy up on eBay right now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                I thought it was a Walthers at first, till someone on eBay pointed out otherwise.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Item number 260486918408

                                                                                                                                                                                                I hope mentioning this is OK with everyone. If not, just let me know.

                                                                                                                                                                                                -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- On Tue, 10/6/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] A bit more on P. Moore & Vintage Traction
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Tuesday, October 6, 2009, 7:37 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi All,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
When I was searching though the 1949 issues of Model Railroder the other night for other information, I noticed that Paul Moore was offering his various traction kits and plans at that time, and he continued well into the 1960's if not later.  His kits had card sides, white metal details and sometimes ends, I belived, but have not confirmed that the cast details used in his kits were stock Walthers castings, purchased in bulk.  As I mentioned earlier, HOSeeker has a wealth of his catalogs and plans.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
While traction and trolley modeling is not a focus here, there are a couple vintage diecast metal traction models that I have included in my collection as they were quite popular and seen on many layouts.  They are the PCC, Indianna RR high speed interurban and the Brill trolley (which I don't have), first introduced by Herman Eschadore's( sp?) Pennsylvania Scale Models.  Very accurate, with a special motor by Pittman, they along with the "baby" Trainmaster, later became part of Bowser's line after an intermediate firm's ownership.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
The PSM PCC car was introduced circa 1949, and is celebrating its 60th anniversary in production as a HO model (with updated drive) this year! (Bowser is bringing in new, all plastic San Francisco versions from China now, as well, though).
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi Brad S., and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi Brad S., Here are some photos of a group of assembled Paul Moore gas electrics that were sold as one lot on eBay a while back.  The Little Scoot is at lower right of the first photo, and at bottom of second.   I did not purchase this lot, and not my photos, so am just posting them here for educational viewing instead of in a permanent album.  W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11983
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: F-M Train Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Chris, Ralph and others,  As for the way this group is focused on its named topics, this discussion of "Trainmaster" vs "Train Master" has been brought up before, and if I'm not mistaken it was fairly recently -- with the same expanation that Jim points out -- and that I brought out in my reference to "Trainmaster;" it's written this way in literature (modeling literature).  We are on a strickly modeling forum here, and while it's recognized that the prototype may use different terminology (and the prototype should be correct in this as their units are where all the modelers' efforts come from), it may be that different railroads call the same units by somewhat different names, which we are not particulary concerned with.    

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                We know the PRR used different designations than the manufacturers did, such as their six-axle 2000 HP Baldwin Passenger "Shark-Nose" engines (Baldwin designation: DR 6-4-2000); PRR called theirs BP-20.  Were they "wrong" in doing so?  It should be pointed out that while Fairbanks Morse referred to their H-16-24 as Train Master (two words), they NEVER actually used the term "Baby Train Master" (for either their H-16-44 or their H-16-66).  I'm surprised that this "correction" wasn't brought to the group's attention sooner.  While I've seen prototype railfans refer to the CNJ H-16-44 engines as "Baby Train Masters" and "Baby Trainmasters" -- and likewise for those fans discussing DL&W H-16-44 engines -- neither one is correct if they want to follow Fairbanks Morse's lead, but WE (railfans AND modelers) chose to give them that name. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I wasn't particulary aware that their were modeling groups for larger scale groups or high end brass collectors, although knowing that Lionel 0 Gauge (and Standard Gauge) was always extremely popular, this part comes of no surprise.  I never gave brass collectors any thought of their forming discussion forums though, even though I'm not seeing where this was leading to.  As we know, H0 modeling had started in the '30's and became increasingly popular after the War.  It should be of no surprise that there would be a following of these early manufacturing examples.

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I trust the information being brought forth about every possible variation of early die-cast American made steam engines, and of Binkley boxes as examples are enjoyed and appreciated (and I really don't know how this remark was meant since there was no further expansion of it).  Being members here though, I would assume these are the types of information that might be welcomed and can be put to some use.  If not, for anyone seeing these reports as too detailing, one can always make use of the delete button if it's chosen not to be viewed.   Ray F.W.

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                There are some prototype rail aficionados who refer to the certain Baldwin cab style as "Babyface," but there are just as many referring to this same style as "Baby Face."  Engine model names are sometimes called somewhat differently by different people, groups, railroads and (prototype) engine builders and in this case it seems "Trainmaster" (for the engine) has stuck in the modeling fraternity if only because modeling literature prints it that way.  Ray F.W.

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11984
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 10/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: F-M Train Masters (was Pennsylvania Scale Models)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                > There are some prototype rail aficionados who refer to the certain 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Baldwin cab style as "Babyface," but there are just as many referring to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> this same style as "Baby Face."  Engine model names are sometimes called 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> somewhat differently by different people, groups, railroads and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> (prototype) engine builders and in this case it seems "Trainmaster" (for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> the engine) has stuck in the modeling fraternity if only because 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> modeling literature prints it that way.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Similar to how revisions in various diesel models have become known 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
as "Phase 1", "Phase 2", etc. to railfans and hobbyists, yet the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
manufacturers never designated them as such.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Growing old is mandatory. Growing up is optional.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11985
						From: RalphB
						Date: 10/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Loco classes  and model kits (was F-M Train Masters....)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray F.W. wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> We know the PRR used different designations than the manufacturers did, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> such as their six-axle 2000 HP Baldwin Passenger "Shark-Nose" engines (Baldwin 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> designation: DR 6-4-2000); PRR called theirs BP-20.  Were they "wrong" in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> doing so?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                ------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                
DR 6-4-2000 is the manufacturer's MODEL designation; BP-20 was the railroad's CLASS designation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
And knowing the prototype helps with our modeling.  A few years ago I picked up an Ambroid kit (When was the last time you saw one of those at the hobby shop?) for a D&H wood caboose.  Since I worked for the D&H when the prototype cabooses (cabeese?) were assigned to every local on the system, I should be able to assemble a very accurate model.  And when I put this model into my computer inventory, I wanted to include the Ambroid logo.  It took a lot of Googling, but I found it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
And speaking of kits, has anyone noticed that they're becoming almost impossible to find?  Everything is ready-to-run.  Talked to one manufacturer's rep at the Hartford NMRA show and he hinted that even his company was looking at making the switch.  Won't be long before Athearn shake-the-box kits will be considered "vintage."
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11986
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Loco classes  and model kits (was F-M Train Masters....)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                While I realize that this was the PRR's class designation, why is it that every other road except the Pennsy referred to these and all other builders' engines by what the manufacturers called them?  Would really like to know why the Pennsy had a different system of referring to their engines than every other railroad.  Did every other railroad use the builders' model number as their Class number?  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                When Bruce Sterzing bought the ex-Monongahela (ex- NYC) Baldwin RF-16 A freight Sharknose units (#1205 and #1216) for the D&H, he called them RF-16 A's.  I never heard of them being classified by the D&H as anything else.  Likewise, when Bruce Sterzing bought the four ALCo PA-1's from the Sante Fe for the Laurentian, he called them PA-1's (until he rebuilt them as PA-4's for the Adirondack).  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The Pennsy, on the other hand, called the Baldwin RF-16 A as "BF-16 A; they called the ALCo PA-1 A's as "AFP-20 A".  Their reference to what every other road called an EMD E8A was "EP-22" ("EP-3 A" after 1-1-50) and the Baby Train Masters (FM H-16-44) we were talking about were called "FS-12" by the Pennsy.  Again, I've never heard of any other railroad calling these units other than by what the builders called them; RF-16, PA1, E8, F3A (not, EF-3 [or EH-15] A) and DR-6-4-20 (not, BP-3 [BP-20] A).  I know PRR's system referred to HP, etc., etc., but they had their own way of classifying their units even though they were bought from an independent builder.  It was understandable when each railroad called their steam engine by a different Class identification as many were home built and many of the rest were built by outside builders to the RR's specs -- except for USRA locomotives.

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Probably about the only place you're going to find a craftsman kit being offered for sale (besides as an eBay auction) is at various train meets, although H0swap2 and H0TRAINMEET (both on line) have older stuff from time to time -- but you'll seldom find any bargains there, while prices are usually fairly reasonable at the swap & sell meets.  Yes, kits are becoming scarcer in the hobby shops, that's becoming very noticeable.  Ray. F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11987
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Loco classes  and model kits (was F-M Train Masters....)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                OOPS, That should have been HOYARDSALE after the hoswap2 group in my last message -- just couldn't think of the name of it when I was posting.  There may be some more reasonable prices being asked on those sites, but I've only seen top dollar being asked.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11988
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 10/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: A bit more on P. Moore & Vintage Traction
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I'd swear that is the old Walthers cast end that I see in the 1949  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
catalog and vanishes from Walthers a few years later.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 On Oct 7, 2009, at 9:29 PM, Stephen Neubaum wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> For what it is worth (Shameless self-advertisement plug here), I  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> have a Paul Moore interurban dummy up on eBay right now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I thought it was a Walthers at first, till someone on eBay pointed  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> out otherwise.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Item number 260486918408
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I hope mentioning this is OK with everyone. If not, just let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> --- On Tue, 10/6/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Subject: [vintageHO] A bit more on P. Moore & Vintage Traction
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Date: Tuesday, October 6, 2009, 7:37 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> When I was searching though the 1949 issues of Model Railroder the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> other night for other information, I noticed that Paul Moore was  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> offering his various traction kits and plans............... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11989
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 10/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Pennsy Cabin car question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I should probably take this to a Pennsy group, but with this groups knowledge, I am willing to bet someone will have the answer.  I have kitbashed a facsimile of a Pennsy N8 cabin car from a couple of Tyco units and I need to know what kind of trucks the Pennsy would have used on their cabooses in the late 40's and early 50's?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Thanks in advance,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11990
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Pennsy Cabin car question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                As far as I know, to the best of my knowledge I believe 2A-F5 Barrett-Whitehead trucks were used under Pennsy N8 cabooses, but you may want to check that with a Pennsy group as you're suggesting.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11991
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Pennsy Cabin car question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Kent, Yes the PRR group would have the exact answer as to prototype and what is suitable in HO. I'm not sure which truck Bowser is using under their excellent N-8; I know that they make accurate PRR caboose truck sideframes for either their older N-5 or NC-5 cabin cars. W. Jay W.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49@..." <nvrr49@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I should probably take this to a Pennsy group, but with this groups knowledge, I am willing to bet someone will have the answer.  I have kitbashed a facsimile of a Pennsy N8 cabin car from a couple of Tyco units and I need to know what kind of trucks the Pennsy would have used on their cabooses in the late 40's and early 50's?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Thanks in advance,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11992
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Ray F.W., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I found my last piece of Binkley Literature last evening which I was not sure I still had, an 8-1/2 x 11" b+w single sheet, printed both sides with with about 20 of the familiar small Binkley/Laconia illustrations, that I picked up in the early 1960's at Hi-Way Hobby in Ramsey. (As a young teen, did not have much in HO literature, so punched and saved whatever I had in an old school binder!)   At the top left, "BINKLEY MODELS, Post Office Box No. 31, Inglewood, California" and at upper right "GOLDEN AGE KITS."  "Additional infornation in blue."
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > BINKLEY MODELS -- KIT PRODUCTION
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Standard Gauge Freight Cars:  (continuing after the series from HO-100 to HO-105  on your list)
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                HO-106 Drovers Caboose  Cent. Pac. (old time)
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                HO-109 Canadian Pacific Box Car 243411 "Spans the world"  ("Wood Side -- Steel Beam)

                                                                                                                                                                                                HO-110 Canadian National Box Car 480726 "Serves Canada" ("Wood Side" -- Steel Beam)
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                HO-121 C&O Hi-Side Gondola 36293  (no C&O gon listed): HO-121 Derrick Car

                                                                                                                                                                                                HO-161 Pelican Brand Butter (which you note car # 6298 ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                #'s HO- 162 & 163 as on your list
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                HO-164 Sate Fe 'Shock Control' Steel Box Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                HO-165 Great Northern (alum) Steel Box Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                HO-166 Union Line Old Time Wood Box Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                H)-167 Rome Watert'n Ogdensb'g Old Time Wood Box Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                HO-168 NK Fairbank Co. Old Time Wood Box Car

                                                                                                                                                                                                HO-169 Pennsy Empire Line Old Time Wood Box Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                > Early (Period) Passenger Cars: (continuing after the series from P-1 through P-41  on your list)
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                P-43 D&RG Combine
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                P-45 1970 Coach )open platform)
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                P-49 Virginia & Truckee
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                of interest, but not a whole car kit, per se:  PX-1 Old Time Pass Interior
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                > Narrow Gauge -- H0n3 -- Freight and Passenger Cars: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                (note: narrow gauge passenger and freight car were mixed in this kit number "N" series) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                (N-4 through 24 as on your list, number N-26 is skipped on my sheet)
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                N-28 D&RGW Combine
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                N-30 CCRR Wood Box Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                N-32 D&RGW Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                N-34 D&RGW 30' Reefer
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                N-36 D&RGW Shorty Caboose
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                N-38 Florence & Cripple Creek Wood Box Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                N-40 Standard HOn3 Flat
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                N-42 Lo-Board Flat Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                N-44 Tank Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I believe that the Laconia Car Kit listings were unchanged, but will check and confirm. Let me know if you want a copy of the cat. sheet, (anyone).
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > BINKLEY/LACONIA
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > (Continued)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > by Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > BINKLEY MODELS -- KIT PRODUCTION
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Standard Gauge Freight Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-100 Colorado Midland Box Car 23 ("Wood Side" -- Truss Rod)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-101 Overland Despatch Box Car 359 ("wood Side" -- Truss Rod)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > **HO-102 D&RGW Stcock Car 36950, 36957, 36958 (Truss Rod)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > *HO-103 MP Stock Car 52422, 52425, 52428 and/or
                                                                                                                                                                                                > ATSF 50655, 50656, 50659
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > **HO-104 UP Stock Car 47700, 47701, 47704
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > *HO-105 Wabash Stock Car 15121, 15122, 15125 and/or
                                                                                                                                                                                                > C&NW 19133, 19136, 19137, 19177
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-106 Drovers Caboose
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-107 Great Northern (White) Box Car ("Wood Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-108 Great Northern (Red) Box Car ("Wood Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-109 Canadian Pacific Box Car 243411 ("Wood Side -- Steel Beam)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-110 Canadian National Box Car 480726 ("Wood Side" -- Steel Beam)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-111 Union Pacific Box Car ("Wood Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-112 WP PFE Reefer 51088 ("Wood Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-113 StL&SW Box Car 38674 ("Wood Side" -- Steel Beam)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-114 SOO Line Stock Car 29699 (Truss Rod)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-115 NYNH&H (NH - Red) Box Car 32985 ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > [Used Same Number]
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-116 NYNH&H (NH - Black) Box Car 32985 ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-117 B&O Box Car ("Steel Side" -- Steel Beam)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-118 PRR-Merchandise Box Car 569441 ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-119 SP "Overnight" (Silver) Box Car 93218 ("Aluminum Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-120 WP "Feather" (Box Car Red) Box Car 19501 ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-121 C&O Hi-Side Gondola 36293
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-122 M&StL (Red) Box Car 54102 ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-123 Rutland (Green & Yellow) Box Car 102 ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-124 B&M (Blue) Box Car 78625 ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-125 D&RGW Box Car ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-126 C&NW Reefer 70552 ("Wood Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-127 CM&StP Reefer 37019 ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-128 C&O (Black & Yellow) Box Car 19000 ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-129 ATSF Chief Reefer 4311 ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-130 FGEX Reefer 38960 ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-131 PRR Well Hole Flat w/Load 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-132 UP 50' (Orange) Box Car 499087 ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-133 Armour Reefer 5325 ("Wood Side" -- Truss Rod)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-134 Swift Reefer 2813 ("Wood Side" -- Truss Rod)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-135 B&O Globe Box Car 2416 ("Wood Side" -- Truss Rod)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-136 SP "Shasta Route" Box Car 12959 ("Wood Side" -- Truss Rod)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-137 ATSF 4-Door Reefer 701 ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-138 NYC Convertible Gondola
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-139 SP Convertible Gondola
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-140 NP Automobile Box Car 7416
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-141 Dairyman's League Express Reefer 788 ("Wood Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-142 PRR Flat Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-143 PRR Lo-Board Flat Car 4154
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-144 KCS "Southern Belle" Automobile Box Car 20890 ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-145 D&RGW Lo-Board Flat Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO- 146 Swarzchild-Sulzberger Reefer 1675 ("Wood Side" -- Truss Rod)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-147 1878 Hopper Car (Old Time)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-148 RI (Silver) Express Box Car 20067 ("Aluminum Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-149 Union Tank Car (Black) 7827
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-150 Hercules Powder (Red) Tank Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-151 DX 2-Dome Tank Car (Silver) (Old Time)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-152 Shippers Car Line Tank Car (Black & Yellow)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-153 Kingan Reliable Ham Reefer 825 ("Wood Side" -- Truss Rod)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-154 Domestic Water Tank Car (Red) 48
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-155 Domestic Water Tank Car (Black)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-156 CM&StL Wheel Lat Cat w/Wheels
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-157 Rail & Tie Flat Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-158 NYC Hi-Side Gondola (Red)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-159 D&RGW Hi-Side Gondola (Black)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-160 Meyer-Kornblum Reefer 119 ("Wood Side" -- Truss Rod)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-162 MDT Reefer 21410 ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-163 Henderson Produce Reefer 3500 ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO-168 N.K. Fairbank Box Car 2013 ("Wood Side" -- Truss Rod)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > HO- Farmers' Co-Op "Pellican Butter" Reefer 6298 ("Steel Side")
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > *Kit could be built for either of two roads; came with tw different 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > roadname plaques and an assortment of road numbers to choose from.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > **Kit came with an assortment of road name numbers to choose from.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Early (Period) Passenger Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P- 1 1850 Era Pay Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P- 3 1880 Era Business Car 62'
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P- 5 1880 Era Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P- 8 1900 Era Chair Car, Wide Closed Vesitible
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P- 9 1890 Era Baggage Express Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P-11 1870 Era Baggage-Mail Car, Open Vestible
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P-13 1890 Era Round-Top Window Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P-15 1850 Era Central Pacific Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P-17 1890 Era U.S. Postal Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P-19 1864 Era Pullman Palace Sleeper
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P-21 1890 Era Shorty Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P-23 1890 Era Combine
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P-25 1864 Era Pullman Palace Diner "Linda"
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P-27 1890 Era Exposition Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P-29 1890 Royal Blue Coach (B&O)
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P-31 Ringling Bros Advance Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P-33 3-Way Passenger Caboose
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P-35 Shorty Combine Caboose 33'
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P-37 Shorty Baggage
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P-39 Shorty Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > P-41 1890 Era Observation
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Narrow Gauge -- H0n3 -- Freight Cars:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > N- 2 D&RGW Box Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > N- 4 1878 Era Nevada County Narrow Gauge Hopper
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > N- 6 Rio Grande Southern Stock car
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > N- 7 Colorado Southern Reefer
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > N-10 Southern Pacific (Wood) Box Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > N-12 D&RGW Dual Gauge Coupler Car -- w/H0 Trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > N-14 D&RGW Stock Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > N-16 DSP&PRR (Denver, South Park & Pacific) "Southpark" Reefer
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > N-18 Tiffany Summer & Winter Reefer
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > N-20 East Broad Top (Wood) Box Car
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > N-22 Side Door Caboose (Undecorated) -- for H0 or H0n3 Trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > N-24 Colorado & Suthern (Wood) Box Car 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > g END h
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > That about wraps it up, Chuck -- you can file it all when you get a chance, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ray Wetzel
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11993
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi w Jay W., MANY thanks for including this additional information.  As you picked up this sales sheet in the early '60's, it's easy to see by the roadnames that it reflects more of the Red Ball kits.  I was working with earlier Binkley catalogs, which didn't have everything yet, although I do have the H0-161 Farmers' Co-operative "Pellicans Butter" reefer kit -- but it doesn't have the catalog number on the end.  I have the 1870 Open Platform Coach (P-45) in my notes, but without a catalog number, so I thought I had made a mistake in logging it and left it out.  Glad you were able to come up with this info.  Likewise, I figured there should be kits for the missing catalog numbers (164 thru 167) in my listing), which your sheet bears out.  Interesting, that there were so many additional narrow gauge cars.  Can you post that sheet to the files (I'd like to print it out)?  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The Red Ball influence was quite obvious when looking at the Period passenger cars in their (Red Ball) catalogs, and then seeing the same identical photos of them in the Binkley catalogs.  This was the same with the Binkely trucks, which even used the same Red Ball catalog numbers.  Thanks again,  Ray F.W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11994
						From: RalphB
						Date: 10/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Loco classes  and model kits (was F-M Train Masters....)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray F.W. wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> While I realize that this was the PRR's class designation, why is it that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> every other road except the Pennsy referred to these and all other builders' 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> engines by what the manufacturers called them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                ------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
A quick search of the web turned up this:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
SP had its own system of class designation, other than the manufacturers designation....  E.g., an EMD GP-7 would've been EF415-1 after the 1965 reclassification; a Cotton Belt GP-7 would've been EF415C-1.  (That was for the first order; subsequent orders would be -2, -3, etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
And over on the Erie Lackawanna:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Road No    Former RR    Bldr   Model  RR Class
                                                                                                                                                                                                
---------  ---------  ---------     
                                                                                                                                                                                                
1200-1201 Erie 1200-1201  EMD   GP-7  MFSE-15
                                                                                                                                                                                                
1202-1223 Erie 1202-1223  EMD   GP-7  MFSE-15D
                                                                                                                                                                                                
1224-1246 Erie 1224-1246  EMD   GP-7  MFSE-15
                                                                                                                                                                                                
1260-1265 Erie 1260-1265  EMD   GP-9  MFSE-17D
                                                                                                                                                                                                
1270-1284 DL&W  951- 965  EMD   GP-7  MFSE-15D-4
                                                                                                                                                                                                
1400-1404 Erie 1400-1404  EMD   GP-7  MPSE-15
                                                                                                                                                                                                
1405-1409 DL&W  966- 970  EMD   GP-7  MPSE-15-4
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
The classes with a "D" indicate units with dynamic brakes; I "fired" a pair of EL 1270s once and they did have them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Having also worked for the New York Central and Canadian Pacific, I can tell you that those roads also had their own classes, independent of manufacturer models.  On both EL and CP those class designations were stencilled on the side of the cab just below the road number.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11995
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Loco classes  and model kits (was F-M Train Masters....)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Okay Ralph, thanks for the info.  Those classes are hardly ever mentioned though, in favor of the builder's model designation (E8, GE U25B, ALCo C-628, etc.), when discussions come up about these units and the Roads that used them.  Ray  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11996
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 10/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Rivarossi Allegheny
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I remember somebody asked about a detail part application problem with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
an Rivarossi Allegheny some time ago. I have just received the missing 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
paperwork - including a good assembbly instruction -  for my Allegehny; 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
so if the person who was asking srtill needs any iinfo i might be able 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
to help now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11997
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Laconia & Binkley Information
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Ray F.W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
It was fun to be able to find and supply that misssing Binkley information.  It seems my sheet is more recent that the one indicated as being from 1961 at HO Seeker, so perhaps it is from their last year of production, which I believe was mentioned as 1962.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I do plan to scan items I have that HO Seeker needs, but until I get my scanner working (will try downloading the software again this weekend) or toss it out and get a new one, I can make and mail copies instead.   So let me know your mailing address off site and if I don't get this scanner under steam again by Monday, I will mail a copy out to you (and anyone else in our group who needs one.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
W.Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi w Jay W., MANY thanks for including this additional information.  As you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> picked up this sales sheet in the early '60's, it's easy to see by the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> roadnames that it reflects more of the Red Ball kits.  I was working with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> earlier Binkley catalogs, which didn't have everything yet, although I do have the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> H0-161 Farmers' Co-operative "Pellicans Butter" reefer kit -- but it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> doesn't have the catalog number on the end.  I have the 1870 Open Platform Coach 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> (P-45) in my notes, but without a catalog number, so I thought I had made a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> mistake in logging it and left it out.  Glad you were able to come up with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> this info.  Likewise, I figured there should be kits for the missing catalog 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> numbers (164 thru 167) in my listing), which your sheet bears out.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Interesting, that there were so many additional narrow gauge cars.  Can you post that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> sheet to the files (I'd like to print it out)?  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The Red Ball influence was quite obvious when looking at the Period 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> passenger cars in their (Red Ball) catalogs, and then seeing the same identical 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> photos of them in the Binkley catalogs.  This was the same with the Binkely 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> trucks, which even used the same Red Ball catalog numbers.  Thanks again,  Ray 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11998
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 10/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Rivarossi Allegheny
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


  

 
I was looking for the part numbers and the availability of the pilot
and front porch assembly to use on an Akane Allegheny I have that has
these parts missing.  I still need them.  Thanks for remembering.  If
you ever see these parts available any place please let me know.  Akane
parts would do also if you ever see one in a junker condition.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                
===============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Gerold Eckl wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                I remember somebody asked about a detail part application problem
with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
an Rivarossi Allegheny some time ago. I have just received the missing 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
paperwork - including a good assembbly instruction - for my Allegehny; 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
so if the person who was asking srtill needs any iinfo i might be able 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
to help now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 11999
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Varney parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                         
   Wanted                
  A set of 3  non working rigid plastic diaphragms used on the Varney Aero 
  Train. These parts are slipped between the cars for show only.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                         
  If you have any for sale contact me off site at jimheck@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12000
						From: Jay Wanczyk
						Date: 10/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Red Ball's 1st Passenger Car was a 80' Streamliner !
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Although Red Ball seems to be better known for its line of handsome 1890's narrow vestibule 60' and 80' passenger cars, also some cars from the 1870's and 1850's, as well as a few interesting passenger-based work cars and even a Jim Crow car in its most recent era, I was surprised to find out a few years ago that Red Ball's initial passenger car kit in 1942 was for a modern 80' Union Pacific smooth sided streamlined car! To date, I have never seen either a kit or assembled example and was wondering if either Jim H. or anyone here has one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The kit was introduced on page no. 86 of the pocket-sized "Supplement B to Red Ball Catalog No. 3" dated June 1942. (The two 4-1/2 x 7-1/4" supplements to Catalog No. 3 numbered pages from 65 through 96.) The car was also shown in two subsequent illustrated wartime fold out catalog/brochures, the first dated November 1, 1942. The second, undated appears at HO Seeker courtesy of fellow Vintage HO member Gerold Eckl and the illustration attached below was captured from that post. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The text of Supplement B, telling about the car is titled,"The Challenger, Union Pacific's 80-Ft. Beauty."   It goes on to explain: "Kit with super detailed trucks plus postage on 1 pound $2.50. Sides only, lettered as shown or unlettered; green with silver window moldings, embossed and varnished, with heavy gauge transparent lumarith backing sheet; per pair, $1.00." (The car # is 5307.) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                It seems that the UP streamliner kit was gone from Red Ball catalog #4 issued circa 1947, which pictured most of the 1870 and 1890 passenger car line models. One may speculate that the streamliner model was a casualty of the factory fire in the early Medford period, or perhaps Red Ball founder M. Dale Newton had simply decided to focus on modeling the earlier passenger car eras.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The special modern Union Pacific Challenger 4 wheel trucks (T-63) as well as modern Southern Pacific passenger trucks (T-62) were part of the Red Ball line of trucks for many years to come, though, and were continued by Cape Line.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The discovery that Red Ball did once manufacture a modern streamlied car perhaps explains those full-width modern diaphram end castings that appeared in the later Wabash Valley era Red Ball catalog pages as part # 1260! I think I have one or two somewhere!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hopefully this post will either produce the model or kit for us to see, or help someone identify that mystery passenger car they have. The downside is that I'm probably going to have some competition in trying to find one for my collection. LOL! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I'll be posting an annotated list of the rest of the Red Ball passenger cars soon, in two installments, which may be later added to our files section as well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                W. Jay W. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12001
						From: Jim Waterman
						Date: 10/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Pennsy Cabin car question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                I made a couple of these myself - amazing just how 
close it is to a real N8, and you use all the pieces of the original caboose - 
is this what they were thinking originally? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Would be interested in the answer when you get it. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12002
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Varney parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Those are:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Bowser	2566	AEROTRAIN COACH DIAPHRAM	$1.99 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
For some reason they left them off the Aerotrain parts diagram in the Bowser reference manual but have them listed on the parts list.  I ordered some for my display train years ago, but I checked and they are in stock as of today!  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>             Wanted                A set of 3  non working rigid plastic diaphragms used on the Varney Aero Train. These parts are slipped between the cars for show only.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>            If you have any for sale contact me off site at jimheck@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12003
						From: toytrain13
						Date: 10/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Red Ball Trivia
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi All- I found a fellow selling Red Ball (Howell Day) kits at a local TCA meet today, so I bought five of them. The large parts were wrapped in Barron's (financial newspaper) on which some of the dates were visible, indicating when the kits were packed. The dates are as follows: #87 Monsanto tank (4-24-67), #19 4-wheel caboose (no date), #21 Brace side caboose (no date but appears to be 1967 also), #42 45-ft. high side gondola (6-5-67) and #70 Heavy Duty Flat with 3 transformers (6-5-67. These were being sold very reasonably, but since I didn't much cash on me I had to let the reefers and boxcars go. Also, someone beat me to the Itstinks and Howe tank car! Regards- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12004
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Trivia
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Richard W.,  Wow, what a great haul.  Don't think I've ever found that many Red Ball kits at a show at one time, and in the original newspapers yet.  You have a great selection there and lots of fun ahead!  W Jay W.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi All- I found a fellow selling Red Ball (Howell Day) kits at a local TCA meet today, so I bought five of them. The large parts were wrapped in Barron's (financial newspaper) on which some of the dates were visible, indicating when the kits were packed. The dates are as follows: #87 Monsanto tank (4-24-67), #19 4-wheel caboose (no date), #21 Brace side caboose (no date but appears to be 1967 also), #42 45-ft. high side gondola (6-5-67) and #70 Heavy Duty Flat with 3 transformers (6-5-67. These were being sold very reasonably, but since I didn't much cash on me I had to let the reefers and boxcars go. Also, someone beat me to the Itstinks and Howe tank car! Regards- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12005
						From: Model RailRoad Warehouse
						Date: 10/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Diesel Classes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                B&O Had their own diesel classes also.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
When the railroads STARTED giving classes they were more oriented to the intended purpose of the unit.  They had no way of knowing there would be umpteen models from builders and more "universally applicable" models in the future. A class was for internal use [by people just becoming acclimated to diesels] in a different era. Railfan's historic interests were certainly not the prime focus.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12006
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball's 1st Passenger Car was a 80' Streamliner ! [1 Attachme
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                           
 I  don't happen to have this Red Ball smooth side 80' car. Actually 
this is the first I know of it. Although I have a lot of passenger cars in my 
collection ( probably 400 ) and many "odd" ones there are still a lot I 
don't have. In fact Red Ball passenger cars of any type are not in my 
collection. While I wish I could collect all brands and all their different 
types there are just to many items out there. Still nice to know about 
it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 3:28 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball's 1st 
  Passenger Car was a 80' Streamliner ! [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Although Red Ball seems to be better known for its line of handsome 1890's 
  narrow vestibule 60' and 80' passenger cars, also some cars from the 1870's 
  and 1850's, as well as a few interesting passenger-based work cars and even a 
  Jim Crow car in its most recent era, I was surprised to find out a few years 
  ago that Red Ball's initial passenger car kit in 1942 was for a modern 80' 
  Union Pacific smooth sided streamlined car! To date, I have never seen either 
  a kit or assembled example and was wondering if either Jim H. or anyone here 
  has one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                The kit was introduced on page no. 86 of the pocket-sized "Supplement B to 
  Red Ball Catalog No. 3" dated June 1942. (The two 4-1/2 x 7-1/4" supplements 
  to Catalog No. 3 numbered pages from 65 through 96.) The car was also shown in 
  two subsequent illustrated wartime fold out catalog/brochures, the first dated 
  November 1, 1942. The second, undated appears at HO Seeker courtesy of fellow 
  Vintage HO member Gerold Eckl and the illustration attached below was captured 
  from that post. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                The text of Supplement B, telling about the car is titled,"The Challenger, 
  Union Pacific's 80-Ft. Beauty."   It goes on to explain: "Kit with 
  super detailed trucks plus postage on 1 pound $2.50. Sides only, lettered as 
  shown or unlettered; green with silver window moldings, embossed and 
  varnished, with heavy gauge transparent lumarith backing sheet; per pair, 
  $1.00." (The car # is 5307.) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                It seems that the UP streamliner kit was gone from Red Ball catalog #4 
  issued circa 1947, which pictured most of the 1870 and 1890 passenger car line 
  models. One may speculate that the streamliner model was a casualty of 
  the factory fire in the early Medford period, or perhaps Red Ball founder M. 
  Dale Newton had simply decided to focus on modeling the earlier passenger car 
  eras.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                The special modern Union Pacific Challenger 4 wheel trucks (T-63) as well 
  as modern Southern Pacific passenger trucks (T-62) were part of the Red Ball 
  line of trucks for many years to come, though, and were continued by Cape 
  Line.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                The discovery that Red Ball did once manufacture a modern streamlied car 
  perhaps explains those full-width modern diaphram end castings that appeared 
  in the later Wabash Valley era Red Ball catalog pages as part # 1260! I think 
  I have one or two somewhere!
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hopefully this post will either produce the model or kit for us to see, or 
  help someone identify that mystery passenger car they have. The downside is 
  that I'm probably going to have some competition in trying to find one for my 
  collection. LOL! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                I'll be posting an annotated list of the rest of the Red Ball passenger 
  cars soon, in two installments, which may be later added to our 
  files section as well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                W. Jay W. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12007
						From: toytrain13
						Date: 10/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Trivia
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jay- Thanks for your reply. Do you, or any other of the group, know the prototypes for the #19 4-wheel caboose (the instruction sheet just says "NM Class"),or the #21 outside braced caboose ("NE Class")? I'd like to paint and decal them accurately. I think the #70 Heavy Duty Flatcar is Erie RR. And I've already ordered the correct N&W decals for the #42 battleship gondola. I'm asking since I've read that Red Ball modeled each of their cars after a specific prototype. I've already looked at dozens of caboose photos online, without seeing a match for either caboose. Regards- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12008
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Richard W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
We are thinking alike here!  I recently did some research on a possible prototype for the Red Ball kit # 21, Braced Side Caboose.   Probably my favorite Red Ball caboose model (and later also availble with cast styrene parts in the Cannonball line), it likely shows much of John Anderson's excellent work on the dies and is complete to the die cast white metal facings for the inside of the lower cupola area, unusual for any caboose model even today, but especially one introduced almost 60 years ago. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Ambroid, later Northeastern, had a kit of a very similar prototype of the Nashville, Chatanooga and St. Louis, but the Ambroid kit being what one aquaintance calls "a box o'sticks kit" there is no rivet detail on the steel bracing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Here is an early excellent official NC&SL photo of the prototype of the Ambroid model:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://members.fortunecity.com/alanculise/ncstlcab1.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                
And here is one circa 1960, of the same ex NC&SL caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://www.ncstl.com/equipment/caboose/caboose_OB.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
However, there are two differences between the Red Ball prototype and the NC&SL prototype: 1) the single smaller side window on the left and 2) the differece in the corner steps, stirrup steps on the Red Ball and regular steps on the NC&SL.  Could the Red Ball model have been based on an earlier NC&SL car, or one of another neighboring road?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
The 1919 Car Builders Cyclopedia reprinted in Train Shed's books  mentioned that these cabooses were designed for use in heavy pusher service, and I have one in my Red Ball Rotary Plow train consist, though the single sheathed car sides might be a bit drafty for the crewmen inside...
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I have been led to believe that the prototype for Red Ball caboose kit #19, the four wheel caboose was baseed upon a PRR design, but have not yet looked into it in as much detail yet, will let you know what I find.  And as always, others may have more information, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi Jay- Thanks for your reply. Do you, or any other of the group, know the prototypes for the #19 4-wheel caboose (the instruction sheet just says "NM Class"),or the #21 outside braced caboose ("NE Class")? I'd like to paint and decal them accurately. I think the #70 Heavy Duty Flatcar is Erie RR. And I've already ordered the correct N&W decals for the #42 battleship gondola. I'm asking since I've read that Red Ball modeled each of their cars after a specific prototype. I've already looked at dozens of caboose photos online, without seeing a match for either caboose. Regards- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12009
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Richard W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Before I headed back outside, checked the PRR files at Fallen Flags website and found that Red Ball caboose kit #19 resembles the PRR ND cabin car class, which was a fairly large 4 wheel bobber (that were later converted into eight wheel cabins):  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://tinyurl.com/ygqg3ph
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Will have to review the measurements later.  Possibly the NM designation is from another Eastern road, Reading(?), though I thought their bobbers were smaller, like Mantua's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
BTW, the entire PRR caboose file is here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=cbn&sz=sm&fr=ge
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi Richard W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> We are thinking alike here!  I recently did some research on a possible prototype for the Red Ball kit # 21, Braced Side Caboose.   Probably my favorite Red Ball caboose model (and later also availble with cast styrene parts in the Cannonball line), it likely shows much of John Anderson's excellent work on the dies and is complete to the die cast white metal facings for the inside of the lower cupola area, unusual for any caboose model even today, but especially one introduced almost 60 years ago. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Ambroid, later Northeastern, had a kit of a very similar prototype of the Nashville, Chatanooga and St. Louis, but the Ambroid kit being what one aquaintance calls "a box o'sticks kit" there is no rivet detail on the steel bracing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Here is an early excellent official NC&SL photo of the prototype of the Ambroid model:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://members.fortunecity.com/alanculise/ncstlcab1.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> And here is one circa 1960, of the same ex NC&SL caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://www.ncstl.com/equipment/caboose/caboose_OB.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> However, there are two differences between the Red Ball prototype and the NC&SL prototype: 1) the single smaller side window on the left and 2) the differece in the corner steps, stirrup steps on the Red Ball and regular steps on the NC&SL.  Could the Red Ball model have been based on an earlier NC&SL car, or one of another neighboring road?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The 1919 Car Builders Cyclopedia reprinted in Train Shed's books  mentioned that these cabooses were designed for use in heavy pusher service, and I have one in my Red Ball Rotary Plow train consist, though the single sheathed car sides might be a bit drafty for the crewmen inside...
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I have been led to believe that the prototype for Red Ball caboose kit #19, the four wheel caboose was baseed upon a PRR design, but have not yet looked into it in as much detail yet, will let you know what I find.  And as always, others may have more information, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Hi Jay- Thanks for your reply. Do you, or any other of the group, know the prototypes for the #19 4-wheel caboose (the instruction sheet just says "NM Class"),or the #21 outside braced caboose ("NE Class")? I'd like to paint and decal them accurately. I think the #70 Heavy Duty Flatcar is Erie RR. And I've already ordered the correct N&W decals for the #42 battleship gondola. I'm asking since I've read that Red Ball modeled each of their cars after a specific prototype. I've already looked at dozens of caboose photos online, without seeing a match for either caboose. Regards- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12010
						From: toytrain13
						Date: 10/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks for your research Jay- I'm going to go with PRR ND for the 4-wheel caboose. The dimensions are close enough: overall roof dimension- ND: 24'-5 1/4", Red Ball: 26'9"; overall body dimension- ND: 21'-1 3/4", Red Ball: 21'-9"; wheelbase- ND: 13'-6". Red Ball: approx. 13'-4". As far as the outside braced caboose goes, I'll check the NC&StL car. I do see that the MKT prototype (as in my Roundhouse diecast OB caboose) is quite different. Incidentally, as a 14-year old kid I'd obtained a half dozen of the Red Ball kits by mail order from Howell Day, and they included the outside braced caboose (also the LCL car, the OB reefer, the Wabash caboose, and several billboard reefers). I never did construct those cars, and sold them 30 years later. So it's "deja vu all over again!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Today I've started on the N&W battleship gondola. The wood blocks to support the coal (and to reinforce the body) were missing so I'm working on a substitute for those.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Again, thanks for your help. I'll let you know if I find out more on the OB caboose prototype. Meanwhile, I'd better order some PRR caboose decals! Regards, Richard   
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi Richard W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Before I headed back outside, checked the PRR files at Fallen Flags website and found that Red Ball caboose kit #19 resembles the PRR ND cabin car class, which was a fairly large 4 wheel bobber (that were later converted into eight wheel cabins):  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://tinyurl.com/ygqg3ph
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Will have to review the measurements later.  Possibly the NM designation is from another Eastern road, Reading(?), though I thought their bobbers were smaller, like Mantua's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> BTW, the entire PRR caboose file is here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=cbn&sz=sm&fr=ge
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Hi Richard W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > We are thinking alike here!  I recently did some research on a possible prototype for the Red Ball kit # 21, Braced Side Caboose.   Probably my favorite Red Ball caboose model (and later also availble with cast styrene parts in the Cannonball line), it likely shows much of John Anderson's excellent work on the dies and is complete to the die cast white metal facings for the inside of the lower cupola area, unusual for any caboose model even today, but especially one introduced almost 60 years ago. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Ambroid, later Northeastern, had a kit of a very similar prototype of the Nashville, Chatanooga and St. Louis, but the Ambroid kit being what one aquaintance calls "a box o'sticks kit" there is no rivet detail on the steel bracing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Here is an early excellent official NC&SL photo of the prototype of the Ambroid model:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > http://members.fortunecity.com/alanculise/ncstlcab1.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > And here is one circa 1960, of the same ex NC&SL caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > http://www.ncstl.com/equipment/caboose/caboose_OB.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > However, there are two differences between the Red Ball prototype and the NC&SL prototype: 1) the single smaller side window on the left and 2) the differece in the corner steps, stirrup steps on the Red Ball and regular steps on the NC&SL.  Could the Red Ball model have been based on an earlier NC&SL car, or one of another neighboring road?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > The 1919 Car Builders Cyclopedia reprinted in Train Shed's books  mentioned that these cabooses were designed for use in heavy pusher service, and I have one in my Red Ball Rotary Plow train consist, though the single sheathed car sides might be a bit drafty for the crewmen inside...
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > I have been led to believe that the prototype for Red Ball caboose kit #19, the four wheel caboose was baseed upon a PRR design, but have not yet looked into it in as much detail yet, will let you know what I find.  And as always, others may have more information, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > Hi Jay- Thanks for your reply. Do you, or any other of the group, know the prototypes for the #19 4-wheel caboose (the instruction sheet just says "NM Class"),or the #21 outside braced caboose ("NE Class")? I'd like to paint and decal them accurately. I think the #70 Heavy Duty Flatcar is Erie RR. And I've already ordered the correct N&W decals for the #42 battleship gondola. I'm asking since I've read that Red Ball modeled each of their cars after a specific prototype. I've already looked at dozens of caboose photos online, without seeing a match for either caboose. Regards- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12011
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Trivia
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Richard, I noticed Jay didn't comment on the #K70 36' 75-Ton Flatcar.  Yes, this was taken from an Erie RR prototype.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12012
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball's 1st Passenger Car was a 80' Streamliner ! [1 Attac...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jay,  I'll be looking forward to seeing your list of Red Ball Passenger cars.  I don't have all the Red Ball catalogs and I'm sure there are probably some other passenger cars of their's that I don't know about.  Ray F. W.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12013
						From: mrrwarehouse
						Date: 10/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball's 1st Passenger Car was a 80' Streamliner !
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Jay's supposition about the Challenger car's end (double meaning intended) is accurate I believe.  The manner in which that end mold was made is similar to several of the (few) other pre-Anderson molds that existed when we purchased Red Ball in 1975. There was no roofing nor side printing plates. This suggests to me that the trucks may not have met Cape Line quality criteria. For that reason we never reran (or did once only for historical reruns)several other items--D&H Cement gon sides and several flat car sides in particular. Four open platform passenger cars are being run in December as 70th Anbniversary Red Ball limited editions as announced on our website. Daycoach is pictured there, Jim Crow is one of the four and other two are "shoty"  40-45ft coach and combine. Metal underbody parts, Plastic sides and ends are die cast / injection molded using original molds.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
FYI: We did an ItStinx and Howe rerun in 2009, It is sold out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Although Red Ball seems to be better known for its line of handsome 1890's narrow vestibule 60' and 80' passenger cars, also some cars from the 1870's and 1850's, as well as a few interesting passenger-based work cars and even a Jim Crow car in its most recent era, I was surprised to find out a few years ago that Red Ball's initial passenger car kit in 1942 was for a modern 80' Union Pacific smooth sided streamlined car! To date, I have never seen either a kit or assembled example and was wondering if either Jim H. or anyone here has one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The kit was introduced on page no. 86 of the pocket-sized "Supplement B to Red Ball Catalog No. 3" dated June 1942. (The two 4-1/2 x 7-1/4" supplements to Catalog No. 3 numbered pages from 65 through 96.) The car was also shown in two subsequent illustrated wartime fold out catalog/brochures, the first dated November 1, 1942. The second, undated appears at HO Seeker courtesy of fellow Vintage HO member Gerold Eckl and the illustration attached below was captured from that post. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The text of Supplement B, telling about the car is titled,"The Challenger, Union Pacific's 80-Ft. Beauty."   It goes on to explain: "Kit with super detailed trucks plus postage on 1 pound $2.50. Sides only, lettered as shown or unlettered; green with silver window moldings, embossed and varnished, with heavy gauge transparent lumarith backing sheet; per pair, $1.00." (The car # is 5307.) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> It seems that the UP streamliner kit was gone from Red Ball catalog #4 issued circa 1947, which pictured most of the 1870 and 1890 passenger car line models. One may speculate that the streamliner model was a casualty of the factory fire in the early Medford period, or perhaps Red Ball founder M. Dale Newton had simply decided to focus on modeling the earlier passenger car eras.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The special modern Union Pacific Challenger 4 wheel trucks (T-63) as well as modern Southern Pacific passenger trucks (T-62) were part of the Red Ball line of trucks for many years to come, though, and were continued by Cape Line.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The discovery that Red Ball did once manufacture a modern streamlied car perhaps explains those full-width modern diaphram end castings that appeared in the later Wabash Valley era Red Ball catalog pages as part # 1260! I think I have one or two somewhere!
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hopefully this post will either produce the model or kit for us to see, or help someone identify that mystery passenger car they have. The downside is that I'm probably going to have some competition in trying to find one for my collection. LOL! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I'll be posting an annotated list of the rest of the Red Ball passenger cars soon, in two installments, which may be later added to our files section as well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12014
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Richard W., Thanks for comparing those measurements on K-19, the 4 Wheel Caboose.  I was about the same age when I ordered my first Red Ball kit from Howell Day.  And at the time did not realize that the prototype of the K-78 Borden's "butter dish" milk tank car was used only about a dozen years earlier on the DL&W milk trains about two and a half miles south of my hometown.  It was that kit and Day's R.B. Catalog #11 that sealed the deal for me!  W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Thanks for your research Jay- I'm going to go with PRR ND for the 4-wheel caboose. The dimensions are close enough: overall roof dimension- ND: 24'-5 1/4", Red Ball: 26'9"; overall body dimension- ND: 21'-1 3/4", Red Ball: 21'-9"; wheelbase- ND: 13'-6". Red Ball: approx. 13'-4". As far as the outside braced caboose goes, I'll check the NC&StL car. I do see that the MKT prototype (as in my Roundhouse diecast OB caboose) is quite different. Incidentally, as a 14-year old kid I'd obtained a half dozen of the Red Ball kits by mail order from Howell Day, and they included the outside braced caboose (also the LCL car, the OB reefer, the Wabash caboose, and several billboard reefers). I never did construct those cars, and sold them 30 years later. So it's "deja vu all over again!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Today I've started on the N&W battleship gondola. The wood blocks to support the coal (and to reinforce the body) were missing so I'm working on a substitute for those.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Again, thanks for your help. I'll let you know if I find out more on the OB caboose prototype. Meanwhile, I'd better order some PRR caboose decals! Regards, Richard   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Hi Richard W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Before I headed back outside, checked the PRR files at Fallen Flags website and found that Red Ball caboose kit #19 resembles the PRR ND cabin car class, which was a fairly large 4 wheel bobber (that were later converted into eight wheel cabins):  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > http://tinyurl.com/ygqg3ph
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Will have to review the measurements later.  Possibly the NM designation is from another Eastern road, Reading(?), though I thought their bobbers were smaller, like Mantua's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > BTW, the entire PRR caboose file is here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=cbn&sz=sm&fr=ge
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > Hi Richard W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > We are thinking alike here!  I recently did some research on a possible prototype for the Red Ball kit # 21, Braced Side Caboose.   Probably my favorite Red Ball caboose model (and later also availble with cast styrene parts in the Cannonball line), it likely shows much of John Anderson's excellent work on the dies and is complete to the die cast white metal facings for the inside of the lower cupola area, unusual for any caboose model even today, but especially one introduced almost 60 years ago. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > Ambroid, later Northeastern, had a kit of a very similar prototype of the Nashville, Chatanooga and St. Louis, but the Ambroid kit being what one aquaintance calls "a box o'sticks kit" there is no rivet detail on the steel bracing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > Here is an early excellent official NC&SL photo of the prototype of the Ambroid model:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > http://members.fortunecity.com/alanculise/ncstlcab1.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > And here is one circa 1960, of the same ex NC&SL caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > http://www.ncstl.com/equipment/caboose/caboose_OB.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > However, there are two differences between the Red Ball prototype and the NC&SL prototype: 1) the single smaller side window on the left and 2) the differece in the corner steps, stirrup steps on the Red Ball and regular steps on the NC&SL.  Could the Red Ball model have been based on an earlier NC&SL car, or one of another neighboring road?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > The 1919 Car Builders Cyclopedia reprinted in Train Shed's books  mentioned that these cabooses were designed for use in heavy pusher service, and I have one in my Red Ball Rotary Plow train consist, though the single sheathed car sides might be a bit drafty for the crewmen inside...
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > I have been led to believe that the prototype for Red Ball caboose kit #19, the four wheel caboose was baseed upon a PRR design, but have not yet looked into it in as much detail yet, will let you know what I find.  And as always, others may have more information, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > > Hi Jay- Thanks for your reply. Do you, or any other of the group, know the prototypes for the #19 4-wheel caboose (the instruction sheet just says "NM Class"),or the #21 outside braced caboose ("NE Class")? I'd like to paint and decal them accurately. I think the #70 Heavy Duty Flatcar is Erie RR. And I've already ordered the correct N&W decals for the #42 battleship gondola. I'm asking since I've read that Red Ball modeled each of their cars after a specific prototype. I've already looked at dozens of caboose photos online, without seeing a match for either caboose. Regards- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12015
						From: Jay Wanczyk
						Date: 10/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball's 1st Passenger Car was a 80' Streamliner !
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Merle,  Thank you for you additional information.  I am attaching a portion of an early catalog  illustration (on actual page 23 of R.B. # 4 from HOSeeker) of those cast streamliner car ends which are a good identification point for a 65 year old model that might have been repainted several times in its long life.
                                                                                                                                                                                                And an additional note about Merle's last Red Ball kits manufactured before LaBelle begins another era:  more detailed information about the four passenger car kits and pile driver can be found on his "Announcements" page at www.mrrwarehouse.com (scroll down a bit).  W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: mrrwarehouse <mrrwarehouse@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sun, October 11, 2009 5:57:59 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball's 1st Passenger Car was a 80' Streamliner !

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Jay's supposition about the Challenger car's end (double meaning intended) is accurate I believe. The manner in which that end mold was made is similar to several of the (few) other pre-Anderson molds that existed when we purchased Red Ball in 1975. There was no roofing nor side printing plates. This suggests to me that the trucks may not have met Cape Line quality criteria. For that reason we never reran (or did once only for historical reruns) several other items--D&H Cement gon sides and several flat car sides in particular. Four open platform passenger cars are being run in December as 70th Anbniversary Red Ball limited editions as announced on our website. Daycoach is pictured there, Jim Crow is one of the four and other two are "shoty" 40-45ft coach and combine. Metal underbody parts, Plastic sides and ends are die cast / injection molded using original molds. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                FYI: We did an ItStinx and Howe rerun in 2009, It is sold
 out.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                                Model RR Warehouse

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Although Red Ball seems to be better known for its line of handsome 1890's narrow vestibule 60' and 80' passenger cars, also some cars from the 1870's and 1850's, as well as a few interesting passenger-based work cars and even a Jim Crow car in its most recent era, I was surprised to find out a few years ago that Red Ball's initial passenger car kit in 1942 was for a modern 80' Union Pacific smooth sided streamlined car! To date, I have never seen either a kit or assembled example and was wondering if either Jim H. or anyone here has one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > The kit was introduced on page no. 86 of the pocket-sized "Supplement B to Red Ball Catalog No.
 3" dated June 1942. (The two 4-1/2 x 7-1/4" supplements to Catalog No. 3 numbered pages from 65 through 96.) The car was also shown in two subsequent illustrated wartime fold out catalog/brochures, the first dated November 1, 1942. The second, undated appears at HO Seeker courtesy of fellow Vintage HO member Gerold Eckl and the illustration attached below was captured from that post. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > The text of Supplement B, telling about the car is titled,"The Challenger, Union Pacific's 80-Ft. Beauty."   It goes on to explain: "Kit with super detailed trucks plus postage on 1 pound $2.50. Sides only, lettered as shown or unlettered; green with silver window moldings, embossed and varnished, with heavy gauge transparent lumarith backing sheet; per pair, $1.00." (The car # is 5307.) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > It seems that the UP streamliner kit was gone from Red Ball catalog #4 issued circa 1947, which pictured most of the 1870 and 1890
 passenger car line models. One may speculate that the streamliner model was a casualty of the factory fire in the early Medford period, or perhaps Red Ball founder M. Dale Newton had simply decided to focus on modeling the earlier passenger car eras.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > The special modern Union Pacific Challenger 4 wheel trucks (T-63) as well as modern Southern Pacific passenger trucks (T-62) were part of the Red Ball line of trucks for many years to come, though, and were continued by Cape Line.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > The discovery that Red Ball did once manufacture a modern streamlied car perhaps explains those full-width modern diaphram end castings that appeared in the later Wabash Valley era Red Ball catalog pages as part # 1260! I think I have one or two somewhere!
                                                                                                                                                                                                >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hopefully this post will either produce the model or kit for us to see, or help someone identify that mystery passenger car they have. The downside is
 that I'm probably going to have some competition in trying to find one for my collection. LOL! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I'll be posting an annotated list of the rest of the Red Ball passenger cars soon, in two installments, which may be later added to our files section as well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >


                                                                                                                                                                                                

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12016
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball's 1st Passenger Car was a 80' Streamliner ! [1 Attac...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Ray F.W.,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Last night I spent an hour or so searching though some of the magazines for additional passenger car model information and was able to find some more background on some of the passenger car models.  Also, since the majority of Red Ball catalogs were undated, one way to date them is from when they were announced in an ad or column. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Through an ad in my only 1941 MR, I was able to tenatively date R.B. #3 as from 1941, plus found that the first supplement to it was issued about September, 1941. Now, about halfway though the magazine search, will take another night or so, but have a meeting tonight!  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Lastly, the scan of Red Ball catalog #4 on HO Seeker is missing the center four pages covering the passenger cars and those pages include a a detailed isometric drawing of the narrow vestibule construction which does not even appear in the instructions for those kits.  Have marked those center pages for future scanning and submission.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
W Jay. W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi Jay,  I'll be looking forward to seeing your list of Red Ball Passenger 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> cars.  I don't have all the Red Ball catalogs and I'm sure there are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> probably some other passenger cars of their's that I don't know about.  Ray F. W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12017
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball's 1st Passenger Car was a 80' Streamliner ! [1 A...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi W Jay W., Keep up the good work in your magazine search for those Red Ball ads.  The early ads are sometimes the only way to learn the history behind some of these manufacturers.  They tell a lot and present you with dates.  I use this info source just about every time I write up an all-inclusive article.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                For detailed isometric drawing of the narrow vestible construction, do you mean the Passenger Car End Parts (w/Gould Vestible Doors) as found on page 22 of the R.B. catalog #4 -- version, with the 600 HP EMC Diesel Switcher and Lindsay Power Unit on the inside front cover, or a different drawing in the other R.B. catalog #4 version?  Thanks,  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12018
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball's 1st Passenger Car was a 80' Streamliner ! [1 A...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Ray F.W., Yes that's it, upper portion of page 22 of R.B. catlog # 4.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi W Jay W., Keep up the good work in your magazine search for those Red 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Ball ads.  The early ads are sometimes the only way to learn the history 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> behind some of these manufacturers.  They tell a lot and present you with dates.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I use this info source just about every time I write up an all-inclusive 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> article.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> For detailed isometric drawing of the narrow vestible construction, do you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> mean the Passenger Car End Parts (w/Gould Vestible Doors) as found on page 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 22 of the R.B. catalog #4 -- version, with the 600 HP EMC Diesel Switcher and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Lindsay Power Unit on the inside front cover, or a different drawing in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> other R.B. catalog #4 version?  Thanks,  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12019
						From: mrrwarehouse
						Date: 10/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                The info you guys posted on 4 wheel bobber caboose is on the mark.  The prototypes were made at theFort Wayne shops in the late 90s as I recall.  I did a lot of research on those shopsd 40 years ago while working with the Ft Wayne Hist. Soc. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
The outside braced caboose MAY also be close for a western prototype.  I'd guess WP but am not knowledgeable on it.  Reason for guess: Sales of this model, and requests for it while unavailable, in that region. It has been a Rock Island stsand in too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
The flat mentioned was Erie.  All the heavy duty flats we reran were specific prototype cars.  The LCL mentioned was an NYC car. Howell Day also sold it with PRR decals but the similar PRR cars I researched all had major differences.  This prototype  was a Despatch Car Shops product of the mid-late 20s and we last reran it as a plastic kit (using original molds) exclusive for a NY hobby shop that specialized in NYC. It would be in a "Waterlevel Models" package. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi Richard W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Before I headed back outside, checked the PRR files at Fallen Flags website and found that Red Ball caboose kit #19 resembles the PRR ND cabin car class, which was a fairly large 4 wheel bobber (that were later converted into eight wheel cabins):  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://tinyurl.com/ygqg3ph
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Will have to review the measurements later.  Possibly the NM designation is from another Eastern road, Reading(?), though I thought their bobbers were smaller, like Mantua's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> BTW, the entire PRR caboose file is here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=cbn&sz=sm&fr=ge
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Hi Richard W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > We are thinking alike here!  I recently did some research on a possible prototype for the Red Ball kit # 21, Braced Side Caboose.   Probably my favorite Red Ball caboose model (and later also availble with cast styrene parts in the Cannonball line), it likely shows much of John Anderson's excellent work on the dies and is complete to the die cast white metal facings for the inside of the lower cupola area, unusual for any caboose model even today, but especially one introduced almost 60 years ago. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Ambroid, later Northeastern, had a kit of a very similar prototype of the Nashville, Chatanooga and St. Louis, but the Ambroid kit being what one aquaintance calls "a box o'sticks kit" there is no rivet detail on the steel bracing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Here is an early excellent official NC&SL photo of the prototype of the Ambroid model:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > http://members.fortunecity.com/alanculise/ncstlcab1.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > And here is one circa 1960, of the same ex NC&SL caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > http://www.ncstl.com/equipment/caboose/caboose_OB.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > However, there are two differences between the Red Ball prototype and the NC&SL prototype: 1) the single smaller side window on the left and 2) the differece in the corner steps, stirrup steps on the Red Ball and regular steps on the NC&SL.  Could the Red Ball model have been based on an earlier NC&SL car, or one of another neighboring road?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > The 1919 Car Builders Cyclopedia reprinted in Train Shed's books  mentioned that these cabooses were designed for use in heavy pusher service, and I have one in my Red Ball Rotary Plow train consist, though the single sheathed car sides might be a bit drafty for the crewmen inside...
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > I have been led to believe that the prototype for Red Ball caboose kit #19, the four wheel caboose was baseed upon a PRR design, but have not yet looked into it in as much detail yet, will let you know what I find.  And as always, others may have more information, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > Hi Jay- Thanks for your reply. Do you, or any other of the group, know the prototypes for the #19 4-wheel caboose (the instruction sheet just says "NM Class"),or the #21 outside braced caboose ("NE Class")? I'd like to paint and decal them accurately. I think the #70 Heavy Duty Flatcar is Erie RR. And I've already ordered the correct N&W decals for the #42 battleship gondola. I'm asking since I've read that Red Ball modeled each of their cars after a specific prototype. I've already looked at dozens of caboose photos online, without seeing a match for either caboose. Regards- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12020
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 10/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: 0-4-0T?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                ebay item.  I am not interested in buying...money is too tight at my house, but what is it.  Old Bowser?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-HO-SCALE-RAILROAD-YARD-ENGINE-SWITCHER_W0QQitemZ280409219086QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item4149b1200e
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12021
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 10/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: 0-4-0T?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                It is an old Varney Lil'Joe. It is too hard from the photos to tell the vintage. It is a basic model. If we had a pic of the underside, we could at leastr determine the approximate vintage. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I can tell, from the photo, it looks as if the front steps are missing. There is at least one rear step present.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: "nvrr49@..." <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 1:43:40 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] 0-4-0T?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                ebay item. I am not interested in buying...money is too tight at my house, but what is it. Old Bowser?

                                                                                                                                                                                                http://cgi.ebay. com/VINTAGE- HO-SCALE- RAILROAD- YARD-ENGINE- SWITCHER_ W0QQitemZ2804092 19086QQcmdZViewI temQQptZModel_ RR_Trains? hash=item4149b12 00e

                                                                                                                                                                                                Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                                Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/


                                                                                                                                                                                                

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12022
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 10/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: 0-4-0T?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                unless otherwise identified it must be a Varney or clone.  Varneys had an 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
oval "builder's plate" with a "V" at the bottom front of the tank.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 10:43 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Subject: [vintageHO] 0-4-0T?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
> ebay item.  I am not interested in buying...money is too tight at my 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> house, but what is it.  Old Bowser?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-HO-SCALE-RAILROAD-YARD-ENGINE-SWITCHER_W0QQitemZ280409219086QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item4149b1200e
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.14/2433 - Release Date: 10/13/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
13:25:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12023
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: 0-4-0T?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm pretty sure it's one of 
Varney's metal production runs of the "Lil Joe' Dockside. Without more then the 
one top view picture I won't guess which one although I believe it is 
the version that was sold sitting on a pack of cigarettes. Side and bottom 
view would help but I know seller only had the one picture. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                   I'm not near my collection or books to 
ID any better right now but will later ( with pictures ) if no one else 
does. I'm sure others out there can help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: 
  nvrr49@... 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 1:43 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] 0-4-0T?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ebay item. I am not interested in buying...money is too tight at my house, 
  but what is it. Old Bowser?

                                                                                                                                                                                                http://cgi.ebay. com/VINTAGE- HO-SCALE- RAILROAD- YARD-ENGINE- SWITCHER_ W0QQitemZ2804092 19086QQcmdZViewI temQQptZModel_ RR_Trains? hash=item4149b12 00e

                                                                                                                                                                                                Kent 
  Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                                Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12024
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 10/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: 0-4-0T?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Great info guys. So, from your experience, is this generally are good running engine?  Not that I am in the market right now, but in the future, I will be looking for a small steam engine to switch a car ferry.  I would like to have something vintage, and it will only need to shuttle three or four cars at a time.  To help with power pick-up through the turnouts, I could have an idlers flat always attached and add wipers to the flat car wheels.  Your thoughts?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     I'm pretty sure it's one of Varney's metal production runs of the "Lil Joe' Dockside. Without more then the one top view picture I won't guess which one although I believe it is the version that was sold sitting on a pack of cigarettes. Side and bottom view would help but I know seller only had the one picture. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>    I'm not near my collection or books to ID any better right now but will later ( with pictures ) if no one else does. I'm sure others out there can help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                                                                                            Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   From: nvrr49@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 1:43 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Subject: [vintageHO] 0-4-0T?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     ebay item. I am not interested in buying...money is too tight at my house, but what is it. Old Bowser?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-HO-SCALE-RAILROAD-YARD-ENGINE-SWITCHER_W0QQitemZ280409219086QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item4149b1200e
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12025
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: info needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Since I 
have been able to fill in some specific information on another item ( First 
owner of Pennsylvania Scale Models ) I hope others out there could answer a 
few questions about this item.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                   As you can see by the box lid it is 
sold as  The Pittman "Bride and Groom"   An HO Gauge Two Car 
Multiple Unit Electric Train Kit   manufactured by  Pittman 
Electrical Development Co.  Sellersville Pa, USA. I have sent some pictures 
of the item for those that might not have heard or seen the item. If you go to 
www.hoseeker.net  under Pittman you 
will see a copy of the assembly and parts list sheets.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  This kit has a powered combine and a dummy 
coach. Both the plastic bodies seem to be a HObbyline style 
as are the plastic truck side frames.  The all in one piece bodies 
have been altered  with port hole windows at the ends of both the combine 
and the coach. The Combines roof is drilled to accept a brass pantograph 
that comes with turned brass insulators you install. The combine also has a 
hole drilled at each end of the roof to accept metal headlights that are 
provided. The doors at the ends of the cars seem to be some kind of metal and 
are attached to the metal floors by screws. The floors are sheet metal 
and bottom details are cast metal riveted on. The steps on the combine are cast 
metal riveted on and the coach steps seem to be plastic riveted on. ( Perhaps 
you can see all of this in the one picture ) Under parts the motor is listed as 
DC702B.  They also have what is to me odd couplers but I'm sure people into 
traction will know them. If further details needed I will try to 
answer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My Questions :
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Is this Pittman Electrical Development Co, 
Sellersville PA    the same as Pittman motors who made many different 
size motors and for different gauges  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Is the motor  part number DC702B the 
same as a Pittman DC70 motor ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Are the plastic bodies used a 
HObbyline design that were made and altered by HObbyline or were these made 
by someone else, even Pittman, for this purpose ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If this is the same company as Pittman 
motors did they produce other HO engines or cars items ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Thanks      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12026
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 10/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: 0-4-0T?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                If you are buying the 0-4-0T to use, forget it.  Buy a Bowser 
0-4-0T.  Improved plastic shell, and mechanism.  However, on mine I 
installed a NWSL gearbox and Sagami motor with flywheel.  Runs so nice 
now.  what you are looking at on Ebay is a collector's item.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12027
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: 0-4-0T?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                       First let 
me mention to you that Bowser ( you said Old Bowser ) did make 
the same 0-4-0t but it came from the original Varney molds / design. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I think the metal 
versions of the vintage Varney Dockside would work out for what you are looking 
for. I always thought a nice running item especially good looking with added 
valve gear. Should pull the number of cars you want easily and would fit in 
working your car ferry switching.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     There are a number of 
other nice small vintage switchers that would work unless you only want steam. 
Lindsey's Little Stubby for one. Penn Lines Whitcomb. If you go toEbay number 
190338326148 you will see a nice little American Flyer engine I just bought for 
my collection, with the help of Sean Naylor. This little 4 wheel "Jack Shaft" 
engine comes factory painted, numbered and lettered and came in 2 versions. 
This black version with the eccentrics and the light blue with no eccentrics. 
Both would fill your bill nicely. Many more as I'm sure others will 
mention.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: 
  nvrr49 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 2:59 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 0-4-0T?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Great info guys. So, from your experience, is this generally are good 
  running engine? Not that I am in the market right now, but in the future, I 
  will be looking for a small steam engine to switch a car ferry. I would like 
  to have something vintage, and it will only need to shuttle three or four cars 
  at a time. To help with power pick-up through the turnouts, I could have an 
  idlers flat always attached and add wipers to the flat car wheels. Your 
  thoughts?

                                                                                                                                                                                                Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I'm pretty sure it's one of Varney's metal production runs of the 
  "Lil Joe' Dockside. Without more then the one top view picture I won't guess 
  which one although I believe it is the version that was sold sitting on a pack 
  of cigarettes. Side and bottom view would help but I know seller only had the 
  one picture. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I'm not near my collection or books to ID any 
  better right now but will later ( with pictures ) if no one else does. I'm 
  sure others out there can help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: nvrr49@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 1:43 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: [vintageHO] 
  0-4-0T?
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > ebay item. I am not interested in 
  buying...money is too tight at my house, but what is it. Old Bowser?
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://cgi.ebay. com/VINTAGE- HO-SCALE- RAILROAD- YARD-ENGINE- SWITCHER_ W0QQitemZ2804092 19086QQcmdZViewI temQQptZModel_ RR_Trains? hash=item4149b12 00e
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Check out my 
  blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                >

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12028
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: 0-4-0T?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Little typo. Lindsay not Lindsey
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 3:47 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 
0-4-0T?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                       First let 
  me mention to you that Bowser ( you said Old Bowser ) did make 
  the same 0-4-0t but it came from the original Varney molds / design. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I think the metal 
  versions of the vintage Varney Dockside would work out for what you are 
  looking for. I always thought a nice running item especially good looking with 
  added valve gear. Should pull the number of cars you want easily and would fit 
  in working your car ferry switching.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     There are a number of 
  other nice small vintage switchers that would work unless you only want steam. 
  Lindsey's Little Stubby for one. Penn Lines Whitcomb. If you go toEbay number 
  190338326148 you will see a nice little American Flyer engine I just bought 
  for my collection, with the help of Sean Naylor. This little 4 wheel "Jack 
  Shaft" engine comes factory painted, numbered and lettered and came in 2 
  versions. This black version with the eccentrics and the light blue with no 
  eccentrics. Both would fill your bill nicely. Many more as I'm sure others 
  will mention.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: 
    nvrr49 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 2:59 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 0-4-0T?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                Great info guys. So, from your experience, is this generally are good 
    running engine? Not that I am in the market right now, but in the future, I 
    will be looking for a small steam engine to switch a car ferry. I would like 
    to have something vintage, and it will only need to shuttle three or four 
    cars at a time. To help with power pick-up through the turnouts, I could 
    have an idlers flat always attached and add wipers to the flat car wheels. 
    Your thoughts?

                                                                                                                                                                                                Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
    "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I'm pretty sure it's one of Varney's metal production runs of the 
    "Lil Joe' Dockside. Without more then the one top view picture I won't guess 
    which one although I believe it is the version that was sold sitting on a 
    pack of cigarettes. Side and bottom view would help but I know seller only 
    had the one picture. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I'm not near my collection or books 
    to ID any better right now but will later ( with pictures ) if no one else 
    does. I'm sure others out there can help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: nvrr49@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > To: 
    vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 1:43 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: 
    [vintageHO] 0-4-0T?
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > ebay item. I am not interested 
    in buying...money is too tight at my house, but what is it. Old 
    Bowser?
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://cgi.ebay. com/VINTAGE- HO-SCALE- RAILROAD- YARD-ENGINE- SWITCHER_ W0QQitemZ2804092 19086QQcmdZViewI temQQptZModel_ RR_Trains? hash=item4149b12 00e
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Check out my 
    blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                >

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12029
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: info needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I think I can answer some of your questions in a general manner, as to Charles A. Pittman of Sellersville,PA being one and the same of motor manufacturing fame.  As to other complete Pittmsn HO models other than the "Bride and Groom" I have seen no evidence, though I believe he did make some O scale trolley's that went to Bowser. The Hobbyline origin of the "Bride and Groom" bodies has been suggested, I think it likely, but have not examined any them in person nor seen it confirmed in print.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
All of the principles of most of the Eastern Pennsylvania model manufacturers as well as those from neighboring NJ and NY were active in the trade group EMRRM - Eastern Model Railroad Manufactures and met regurlarly and hoisted a few together at periodic dinners. Hal Carstens wrote a bit abount them in his columns and in his book, 150 Years of Train Models, published in 1999. He also wrote that he was anazed that he and Penn made it home in one piece! A different time. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
The manufacturers often worked together at advancing each other's businesses and the hobby, and it is not by accident that some picked up the others parts, work or dies. Here is a partial list of those being as being active in  EMRRM in 1956:  Edwin P. Alexander, Yardley, PA; Stephen Shaffan, Atlas Tool Company; John A English, Morrisville, PA; John Tyler, Mantua Metal Products, Woodbury Heights, NJ; Robert Faust and Abe Mercer, Penn Line, Boyertown, PA; Herman Eschadore, Pennsylvania Scale Models, Potsville, PA; Charles A. Pittman, Sellersville, PA; Charles A. Penn and Hal Carstens, RMC, Ramsey, NJ; John Chapper, Hobbytown, Boston, MA, Charles Brebeck, Herkimer Tool & Model Works, Herkimer NY.  Also men from AC Gilbert, the Polk Bros. to name a few.     
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim, as to the specifics on the DC70 motor numbers, I do not know, guess there was a slightly different part that warranted the extra number/letter. Perhaps a side by side comparison of a known example of each motor would help.  Any Pittman experts in our group?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
W. Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>        Since I have been able to fill in some specific information on another item ( First owner of Pennsylvania Scale Models ) I hope others out there could answer a few questions about this item.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>    As you can see by the box lid it is sold as  The Pittman "Bride and Groom"   An HO Gauge Two Car Multiple Unit Electric Train Kit   manufactured by  Pittman Electrical Development Co.  Sellersville Pa, USA. I have sent some pictures of the item for those that might not have heard or seen the item. If you go to www.hoseeker.net  under Pittman you will see a copy of the assembly and parts list sheets.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   This kit has a powered combine and a dummy coach. Both the plastic bodies seem to be a HObbyline style as are the plastic truck side frames.  The all in one piece bodies have been altered  with port hole windows at the ends of both the combine and the coach. The Combines roof is drilled to accept a brass pantograph that comes with turned brass insulators you install. The combine also has a hole drilled at each end of the roof to accept metal headlights that are provided. The doors at the ends of the cars seem to be some kind of metal and are attached to the metal floors by screws. The floors are sheet metal and bottom details are cast metal riveted on. The steps on the combine are cast metal riveted on and the coach steps seem to be plastic riveted on. ( Perhaps you can see all of this in the one picture ) Under parts the motor is listed as DC702B.  They also have what is to me odd couplers but I'm sure people into traction will know them. If further details needed I will try to answer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   My Questions :
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Is this Pittman Electrical Development Co, Sellersville PA    the same as Pittman motors who made many different size motors and for different gauges  ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Is the motor  part number DC702B the same as a Pittman DC70 motor ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Are the plastic bodies used a HObbyline design that were made and altered by HObbyline or were these made by someone else, even Pittman, for this purpose ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   If this is the same company as Pittman motors did they produce other HO engines or cars items ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                           Thanks      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12030
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 10/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: RED Ball CERA Trailer
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                bought a Red Ball "50th anniversary" CERA Eastern Michigan trailer kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
some weeks ago at eBay... had the idea to have it assembled by a friend 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
( name withheld to protect the guilty) , when I received it I noticed to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
my horror that he had cut the drawing showing the roof contour from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
original sheet.....  but the model itself is built up fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Would greatly appreciate any info on this model, have never seen it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
mentioned anywhere before. Also havent found any prototype info on this 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
particular car although I found pictures of many other CERA trailers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Merle, do you have any documentation left?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Attachments:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
the four CERA trailer models I have now, from top:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Funaro & Camerlengo Resin kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Red Ball E.M.Ry kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                
two styles LaBelle kits, from the late  Skip Nortons collection
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12031
						From: Richard White
						Date: 10/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                



 
Hi Jay- After looking at hundreds of caboose photos online I think I am ready to agree that the NC&StL outside-braced caboose, as modeled by Northeastern/Ambroid (kit #1-3), is the prototype for the Red Ball #21 caboose. There are no proper steps on the Red Ball version, but I'll call that artistic license! Thanks for your help! -Richard White 
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: the_plainsman@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:16:03 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Hi Richard W.,

                                                                                                                                                                                                We are thinking alike here! I recently did some research on a possible prototype for the Red Ball kit # 21, Braced Side Caboose. Probably my favorite Red Ball caboose model (and later also availble with cast styrene parts in the Cannonball line), it likely shows much of John Anderson's excellent work on the dies and is complete to the die cast white metal facings for the inside of the lower cupola area, unusual for any caboose model even today, but especially one introduced almost 60 years ago. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Ambroid, later Northeastern, had a kit of a very similar prototype of the Nashville, Chatanooga and St. Louis, but the Ambroid kit being what one aquaintance calls "a box o'sticks kit" there is no rivet detail on the steel bracing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Here is an early excellent official NC&SL photo of the prototype of the Ambroid model:
                                                                                                                                                                                                http://members. fortunecity. com/alanculise/ ncstlcab1. html
                                                                                                                                                                                                And here is one circa 1960, of the same ex NC&SL caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.ncstl. com/equipment/ caboose/caboose_ OB.htm

                                                                                                                                                                                                However, there are two differences between the Red Ball prototype and the NC&SL prototype: 1) the single smaller side window on the left and 2) the differece in the corner steps, stirrup steps on the Red Ball and regular steps on the NC&SL. Could the Red Ball model have been based on an earlier NC&SL car, or one of another neighboring road?

                                                                                                                                                                                                The 1919 Car Builders Cyclopedia reprinted in Train Shed's books mentioned that these cabooses were designed for use in heavy pusher service, and I have one in my Red Ball Rotary Plow train consist, though the single sheathed car sides might be a bit drafty for the crewmen inside...

                                                                                                                                                                                                I have been led to believe that the prototype for Red Ball caboose kit #19, the four wheel caboose was baseed upon a PRR design, but have not yet looked into it in as much detail yet, will let you know what I find. And as always, others may have more information, too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi Jay- Thanks for your reply. Do you, or any other of the group, know the prototypes for the #19 4-wheel caboose (the instruction sheet just says "NM Class"),or the #21 outside braced caboose ("NE Class")? I'd like to paint and decal them accurately. I think the #70 Heavy Duty Flatcar is Erie RR. And I've already ordered the correct N&W decals for the #42 battleship gondola. I'm asking since I've read that Red Ball modeled each of their cars after a specific prototype. I've already looked at dozens of caboose photos online, without seeing a match for either caboose. Regards- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                >


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                




 		 	   		  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12032
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Richard,  I agree, but will keep looking, both in the upper South and out West, as Merle suggested as well.  When I have more time, thought of contacting to some of the NC&StL modelers and historians, too. BTW, did you notive the dark lettering on the red sides in that as-built photo of NC&StL #1.  Unusual to see that.  W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Richard White <toytrain13@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi Jay- After looking at hundreds of caboose photos online I think I am ready to agree that the NC&StL outside-braced caboose, as modeled by Northeastern/Ambroid (kit #1-3), is the prototype for the Red Ball #21 caboose. There are no proper steps on the Red Ball version, but I'll call that artistic license! Thanks for your help! -Richard White 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> From: the_plainsman@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:16:03 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi Richard W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> We are thinking alike here! I recently did some research on a possible prototype for the Red Ball kit # 21, Braced Side Caboose. Probably my favorite Red Ball caboose model (and later also availble with cast styrene parts in the Cannonball line), it likely shows much of John Anderson's excellent work on the dies and is complete to the die cast white metal facings for the inside of the lower cupola area, unusual for any caboose model even today, but especially one introduced almost 60 years ago. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Ambroid, later Northeastern, had a kit of a very similar prototype of the Nashville, Chatanooga and St. Louis, but the Ambroid kit being what one aquaintance calls "a box o'sticks kit" there is no rivet detail on the steel bracing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Here is an early excellent official NC&SL photo of the prototype of the Ambroid model:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://members.fortunecity.com/alanculise/ncstlcab1.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> And here is one circa 1960, of the same ex NC&SL caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://www.ncstl.com/equipment/caboose/caboose_OB.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> However, there are two differences between the Red Ball prototype and the NC&SL prototype: 1) the single smaller side window on the left and 2) the differece in the corner steps, stirrup steps on the Red Ball and regular steps on the NC&SL. Could the Red Ball model have been based on an earlier NC&SL car, or one of another neighboring road?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The 1919 Car Builders Cyclopedia reprinted in Train Shed's books mentioned that these cabooses were designed for use in heavy pusher service, and I have one in my Red Ball Rotary Plow train consist, though the single sheathed car sides might be a bit drafty for the crewmen inside...
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I have been led to believe that the prototype for Red Ball caboose kit #19, the four wheel caboose was baseed upon a PRR design, but have not yet looked into it in as much detail yet, will let you know what I find. And as always, others may have more information, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Hi Jay- Thanks for your reply. Do you, or any other of the group, know the prototypes for the #19 4-wheel caboose (the instruction sheet just says "NM Class"),or the #21 outside braced caboose ("NE Class")? I'd like to paint and decal them accurately. I think the #70 Heavy Duty Flatcar is Erie RR. And I've already ordered the correct N&W decals for the #42 battleship gondola. I'm asking since I've read that Red Ball modeled each of their cars after a specific prototype. I've already looked at dozens of caboose photos online, without seeing a match for either caboose. Regards- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  		 	   		  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> _________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12033
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: RED Ball CERA Trailer
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Gerold E.,  Sorry I don't have anything on this model, have only seen one other on eBay a long while back. W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> bought a Red Ball "50th anniversary" CERA Eastern Michigan trailer kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> some weeks ago at eBay... had the idea to have it assembled by a friend 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> ( name withheld to protect the guilty) , when I received it I noticed to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> my horror that he had cut the drawing showing the roof contour from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> original sheet.....  but the model itself is built up fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Would greatly appreciate any info on this model, have never seen it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> mentioned anywhere before. Also havent found any prototype info on this 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> particular car although I found pictures of many other CERA trailers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Merle, do you have any documentation left?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Attachments:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> the four CERA trailer models I have now, from top:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Funaro & Camerlengo Resin kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Red Ball E.M.Ry kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> two styles LaBelle kits, from the late  Skip Nortons collection
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12034
						From: Rhbale@aol.com
						Date: 10/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: October MRH Released
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The October Model Railroad Hobbyist mediaZine is now available at http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                As always, it's free.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12035
						From: tom leen
						Date: 10/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: old TYCO powerTrac loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Does anyone know where I can find a new pinion gear that fits on the motor shaft of an old TYCO powerTrac locomotive.  My gear is plastic and it split so it does not stay lined up on the shaft anymore.  I've tried gluing it to no luck.  As it is split, when it does run, there is a skip in the drive train when the split in the gear engages the corresponding gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12036
						From: mrrwarehouse
						Date: 10/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: RED Ball CERA Trailer
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                The Eastern Michigan trailer SHOULD have had --in the kit box-- a printed photo of the prototype.  I will try to find a copy to post (after getting Red Ball packed and off to Cheyenne--a time crunch exists on that now). There were several "CERA Trailer" designs.  This kit was done courtesy of the late Bill Pepper [who had taken an extensive photos of Michigan and Ontario--some Indiana traction] and his son Rob who has helped here from time to time. It is a very legitimate -round ended CERA boxcar--prototype. As I recall only 50 to 75 of these kits with silk screened wood sides were run.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Model Railroad Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> bought a Red Ball "50th anniversary" CERA Eastern Michigan trailer kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> some weeks ago at eBay... had the idea to have it assembled by a friend 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> ( name withheld to protect the guilty) , when I received it I noticed to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> my horror that he had cut the drawing showing the roof contour from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> original sheet.....  but the model itself is built up fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Would greatly appreciate any info on this model, have never seen it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> mentioned anywhere before. Also havent found any prototype info on this 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> particular car although I found pictures of many other CERA trailers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Merle, do you have any documentation left?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Attachments:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> the four CERA trailer models I have now, from top:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Funaro & Camerlengo Resin kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Red Ball E.M.Ry kit
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> two styles LaBelle kits, from the late  Skip Nortons collection
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12037
						From: mrrwarehouse
						Date: 10/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Regarding #21 -- the "Braced Side Caboose"
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I believe the Red Ball kit predates Ambroid's by several years so Amboid should not be construed as the prototype having been copied.  There are no such things as "universal standard" caboose steps. There is a more conventional caboose step SIMILAR to those of many roads. Excellent Red Ball molds existed for such a "standard" step at the time the caboose kit #21 was marketed. The Red Ball molds & kits being designed at that time were consistently based on specific prototypes. Therefore I strongly suspect the step used in kit #21 was intentionally used for this kit.  It was only used in one other kit --as I recall without checking any paperwork. There was no prototype info on this car in the RB files.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I'm certain any valid prototype information would be appreciated by LaBelle Woodworking. I've packed enough molded plastic body parts to ship there for them to reissue a kit early on.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Model Railroad Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Richard White <toytrain13@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi Jay- After looking at hundreds of caboose photos online I think I am ready to agree that the NC&StL outside-braced caboose, as modeled by Northeastern/Ambroid (kit #1-3), is the prototype for the Red Ball #21 caboose. There are no proper steps on the Red Ball version, but I'll call that artistic license! Thanks for your help! -Richard White 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> From: the_plainsman@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:16:03 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi Richard W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> We are thinking alike here! I recently did some research on a possible prototype for the Red Ball kit # 21, Braced Side Caboose. Probably my favorite Red Ball caboose model (and later also availble with cast styrene parts in the Cannonball line), it likely shows much of John Anderson's excellent work on the dies and is complete to the die cast white metal facings for the inside of the lower cupola area, unusual for any caboose model even today, but especially one introduced almost 60 years ago. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Ambroid, later Northeastern, had a kit of a very similar prototype of the Nashville, Chatanooga and St. Louis, but the Ambroid kit being what one aquaintance calls "a box o'sticks kit" there is no rivet detail on the steel bracing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Here is an early excellent official NC&SL photo of the prototype of the Ambroid model:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://members.fortunecity.com/alanculise/ncstlcab1.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> And here is one circa 1960, of the same ex NC&SL caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://www.ncstl.com/equipment/caboose/caboose_OB.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> However, there are two differences between the Red Ball prototype and the NC&SL prototype: 1) the single smaller side window on the left and 2) the differece in the corner steps, stirrup steps on the Red Ball and regular steps on the NC&SL. Could the Red Ball model have been based on an earlier NC&SL car, or one of another neighboring road?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The 1919 Car Builders Cyclopedia reprinted in Train Shed's books mentioned that these cabooses were designed for use in heavy pusher service, and I have one in my Red Ball Rotary Plow train consist, though the single sheathed car sides might be a bit drafty for the crewmen inside...
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I have been led to believe that the prototype for Red Ball caboose kit #19, the four wheel caboose was baseed upon a PRR design, but have not yet looked into it in as much detail yet, will let you know what I find. And as always, others may have more information, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Hi Jay- Thanks for your reply. Do you, or any other of the group, know the prototypes for the #19 4-wheel caboose (the instruction sheet just says "NM Class"),or the #21 outside braced caboose ("NE Class")? I'd like to paint and decal them accurately. I think the #70 Heavy Duty Flatcar is Erie RR. And I've already ordered the correct N&W decals for the #42 battleship gondola. I'm asking since I've read that Red Ball modeled each of their cars after a specific prototype. I've already looked at dozens of caboose photos online, without seeing a match for either caboose. Regards- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  		 	   		  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> _________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12038
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 10/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                if the gear has a hub, you might make a collar from 
brass tube that will hold it together.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: 
  tom 
  leen 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:55 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac 
  loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                Does anyone know where I can find a new pinion gear that fits on 
        the motor shaft of an old TYCO powerTrac locomotive.  My gear is 
        plastic and it split so it does not stay lined up on the shaft 
        anymore.  I've tried gluing it to no luck.  As it is 
        split, when it does run, there is a skip in the drive train when 
        the split in the gear engages the corresponding gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

  

                                                                                                                                                                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
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  Date: 10/14/09 06:33:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12039
						From: Richard White
						Date: 10/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                



 
Hi Jay- I seem to have lost the photo of NC&StL #1. Could you re-send the link, please? Thanks- Richard W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: the_plainsman@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:11:35 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Hi Richard, I agree, but will keep looking, both in the upper South and out West, as Merle suggested as well. When I have more time, thought of contacting to some of the NC&StL modelers and historians, too. BTW, did you notive the dark lettering on the red sides in that as-built photo of NC&StL #1. Unusual to see that. W. Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Richard White <toytrain13@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi Jay- After looking at hundreds of caboose photos online I think I am ready to agree that the NC&StL outside-braced caboose, as modeled by Northeastern/ Ambroid (kit #1-3), is the prototype for the Red Ball #21 caboose. There are no proper steps on the Red Ball version, but I'll call that artistic license! Thanks for your help! -Richard White 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: the_plainsman@ ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:16:03 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi Richard W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > We are thinking alike here! I recently did some research on a possible prototype for the Red Ball kit # 21, Braced Side Caboose. Probably my favorite Red Ball caboose model (and later also availble with cast styrene parts in the Cannonball line), it likely shows much of John Anderson's excellent work on the dies and is complete to the die cast white metal facings for the inside of the lower cupola area, unusual for any caboose model even today, but especially one introduced almost 60 years ago. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Ambroid, later Northeastern, had a kit of a very similar prototype of the Nashville, Chatanooga and St. Louis, but the Ambroid kit being what one aquaintance calls "a box o'sticks kit" there is no rivet detail on the steel bracing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Here is an early excellent official NC&SL photo of the prototype of the Ambroid model:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://members. fortunecity. com/alanculise/ ncstlcab1. html
                                                                                                                                                                                                > And here is one circa 1960, of the same ex NC&SL caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://www.ncstl. com/equipment/ caboose/caboose_ OB.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > However, there are two differences between the Red Ball prototype and the NC&SL prototype: 1) the single smaller side window on the left and 2) the differece in the corner steps, stirrup steps on the Red Ball and regular steps on the NC&SL. Could the Red Ball model have been based on an earlier NC&SL car, or one of another neighboring road?
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > The 1919 Car Builders Cyclopedia reprinted in Train Shed's books mentioned that these cabooses were designed for use in heavy pusher service, and I have one in my Red Ball Rotary Plow train consist, though the single sheathed car sides might be a bit drafty for the crewmen inside...
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I have been led to believe that the prototype for Red Ball caboose kit #19, the four wheel caboose was baseed upon a PRR design, but have not yet looked into it in as much detail yet, will let you know what I find. And as always, others may have more information, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@ > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > > Hi Jay- Thanks for your reply. Do you, or any other of the group, know the prototypes for the #19 4-wheel caboose (the instruction sheet just says "NM Class"),or the #21 outside braced caboose ("NE Class")? I'd like to paint and decal them accurately. I think the #70 Heavy Duty Flatcar is Erie RR. And I've already ordered the correct N&W decals for the #42 battleship gondola. I'm asking since I've read that Red Ball modeled each of their cars after a specific prototype. I've already looked at dozens of caboose photos online, without seeing a match for either caboose. Regards- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > http://clk.atdmt. com/GBL/go/ 177141665/ direct/01/
                                                                                                                                                                                                >


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                




 		 	   		  
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12040
						From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com
						Date: 10/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm not exactly clear which gear you are referring to... but I have lots of extra parts for these drives. Are you talking about the very small gear that is on the back side of the pancake motor itself ?... or are you talking about the other gears in between the little one and the drive gears on the backs of the wheels ? Or... are you referring to the weird drive gear that has no wheel ? A picture would be best, but let me know. I know that I will take some heat for this... but although I have a really nice collection of mostly vintage die cast steam and diesel from the Fifties, I also have some TYCO pieces that I really enjoy taking out once in a while to run on my layout.


                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12041
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Merle, Richard W. and All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Merle I agree, and that is why I'm still looking for an exact match - I would not be surprised to find that the prototypes may have been  manufactured at the same time, by the same car-builder as the "mighty close" NC&StL cabooses, either perhaps as a car-builder's add on order with the few details such as the steps and left side windows per the other road's standards. (The lowest portion of the side braces on the NC&StL prototype are backed by a solid lower side sill, too, not found on the model, but could be added.) http://members.fortunecity.com/alanculise/ncstlcab1.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
M. Dale Newton introduced the braced side caboose model in late 1950 and it was featured in the Novemeber 1950 MR in both an ad and a full Trade Topic review as well, and in Red Ball's 1951 full line catalog. MR did not mention a prototype, but concluded "We think this caboose is a honey."  The Ambroid 1 in 5000 NC&StL kit was introduced eight years later, based on the dates of RMC's kit review in April 1958 and MR's in June, 1958.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I had thought of the steps, too, Merle, as Red Ball already had "passenger-type" caboose steps in their line from other older caboose models that could have been used; such as were used in the first version of the drovers caboose model, but they instead chose to engrave new dies for the braced side cabooses stirup-style steps. So I agree with Merle's theory that the step used in kit #21 was intentionally (manufactured and) used for that kit. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "mrrwarehouse" <mrrwarehouse@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Regarding #21 -- the "Braced Side Caboose"
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I believe the Red Ball kit predates Ambroid's by several years so Amboid should not be construed as the prototype having been copied.  There are no such things as "universal standard" caboose steps. There is a more conventional caboose step SIMILAR to those of many roads. Excellent Red Ball molds existed for such a "standard" step at the time the caboose kit #21 was marketed. The Red Ball molds & kits being designed at that time were consistently based on specific prototypes. Therefore I strongly suspect the step used in kit #21 was intentionally used for this kit.  It was only used in one other kit --as I recall without checking any paperwork. There was no prototype info on this car in the RB files.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I'm certain any valid prototype information would be appreciated by LaBelle Woodworking. I've packed enough molded plastic body parts to ship there for them to reissue a kit early on.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Model Railroad Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Richard White <toytrain13@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Hi Jay- After looking at hundreds of caboose photos online I think I am ready to agree that the NC&StL outside-braced caboose, as modeled by Northeastern/Ambroid (kit #1-3), is the prototype for the Red Ball #21 caboose. There are no proper steps on the Red Ball version, but I'll call that artistic license! Thanks for your help! -Richard White 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > From: the_plainsman@
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:16:03 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball Caboose Prototypes
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Hi Richard W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > We are thinking alike here! I recently did some research on a possible prototype for the Red Ball kit # 21, Braced Side Caboose. Probably my favorite Red Ball caboose model (and later also availble with cast styrene parts in the Cannonball line), it likely shows much of John Anderson's excellent work on the dies and is complete to the die cast white metal facings for the inside of the lower cupola area, unusual for any caboose model even today, but especially one introduced almost 60 years ago. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Ambroid, later Northeastern, had a kit of a very similar prototype of the Nashville, Chatanooga and St. Louis, but the Ambroid kit being what one aquaintance calls "a box o'sticks kit" there is no rivet detail on the steel bracing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Here is an early excellent official NC&SL photo of the prototype of the Ambroid model:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > http://members.fortunecity.com/alanculise/ncstlcab1.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > And here is one circa 1960, of the same ex NC&SL caboose:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > http://www.ncstl.com/equipment/caboose/caboose_OB.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > However, there are two differences between the Red Ball prototype and the NC&SL prototype: 1) the single smaller side window on the left and 2) the differece in the corner steps, stirrup steps on the Red Ball and regular steps on the NC&SL. Could the Red Ball model have been based on an earlier NC&SL car, or one of another neighboring road?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > The 1919 Car Builders Cyclopedia reprinted in Train Shed's books mentioned that these cabooses were designed for use in heavy pusher service, and I have one in my Red Ball Rotary Plow train consist, though the single sheathed car sides might be a bit drafty for the crewmen inside...
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > I have been led to believe that the prototype for Red Ball caboose kit #19, the four wheel caboose was baseed upon a PRR design, but have not yet looked into it in as much detail yet, will let you know what I find. And as always, others may have more information, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > > Hi Jay- Thanks for your reply. Do you, or any other of the group, know the prototypes for the #19 4-wheel caboose (the instruction sheet just says "NM Class"),or the #21 outside braced caboose ("NE Class")? I'd like to paint and decal them accurately. I think the #70 Heavy Duty Flatcar is Erie RR. And I've already ordered the correct N&W decals for the #42 battleship gondola. I'm asking since I've read that Red Ball modeled each of their cars after a specific prototype. I've already looked at dozens of caboose photos online, without seeing a match for either caboose. Regards- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >  		 	   		  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > _________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12042
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: any real prototype ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am looking to find out if the 
pictures I have sent can be matched to a real or similar any full 
size engine. These two engines, one with eccentrics, were made by A C 
Gilbert / American Flyer 1958 -1961. American Flyer ( not me ) calls 
them  "Jackshaft Diesel Switchers."
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am wondering if either is a 
copy of a real engine ? Did both types exist ? What is the purpose of the 
eccentrics on the one type ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12043
						From: corlissbs
						Date: 10/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: any real prototype ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Several industrial locomotive builders built locomotives with siderods and some with a jackshaft.  Most 4-wheel (critter) locomotives had only one axle driven by a traction motor or transmission.  Power to the other axle was done either by use of a roller chain or siderods.  Some locos had the traction motor mounted to the rear or front of the axles and used a jackshaft to transmit power.  The jackshaft would have to be counterweighted to reduce vibration.  So, the answer is "Yes."  They both look like typical Whitcomb, Davenport, Porter or other locomotives.  Some Porter steam 0-4-0 locomotives had a jackshaft drive.  Cylinders inside the frame, driving a jackshaft.  Terrible for maint and getting at the parts for lubrication.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12044
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: any real prototype ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jim H. and Brad S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
When confronted by trying to ID any small "Critter" the first website I try is:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/industrial.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I do remember reading an opinion on the origin of the Gilber Ho prototype, but can not recall it, probably as I dont have one yet!  Those are nice examples, Jim!  W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "corlissbs" <corlissbs@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Several industrial locomotive builders built locomotives with siderods and some with a jackshaft.  Most 4-wheel (critter) locomotives had only one axle driven by a traction motor or transmission.  Power to the other axle was done either by use of a roller chain or siderods.  Some locos had the traction motor mounted to the rear or front of the axles and used a jackshaft to transmit power.  The jackshaft would have to be counterweighted to reduce vibration.  So, the answer is "Yes."  They both look like typical Whitcomb, Davenport, Porter or other locomotives.  Some Porter steam 0-4-0 locomotives had a jackshaft drive.  Cylinders inside the frame, driving a jackshaft.  Terrible for maint and getting at the parts for lubrication.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12045
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: any real prototype ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad S, W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the responses. I 
admit that when it comes to my identifying if there is a full size prototype 
that an HO item is a copy of my knowledge is limited. When I was trying to 
research this HO item I noticed Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon Vo. II has it as a 
1928 Jackshaft Diesel Switcher. The 1928 date seemed early for the prototype. 
Going to the site W Jay W suggested I see Davenport engines were first made in 
1927. It is very interesting how power is supplied to the drivers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I'm guessing that the 
eccentrics on my Gilbert engines acted something like the return cranks on 
steam.  I'm also guessing the HO model of the Lindsay Little Stubby, 
although a different looking style from these Gilbert HO engines,  would 
fall into a Jackshaft  "Critter" category.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Last questions. I've seen 
a lot of these small engines, and also in the responses , referred to by the 
word "Critter".  Is that just a word for small type engines in general ? Is 
this a word that was coined by railroads to identify full size prototypes 
of just a word some use ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:32 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: any real 
  prototype ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jim H. and Brad S.,

                                                                                                                                                                                                When confronted by trying to ID any small 
  "Critter" the first website I try is:
                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.northeas t.railfan. net/industrial. html
                                                                                                                                                                                                I 
  do remember reading an opinion on the origin of the Gilber Ho prototype, but 
  can not recall it, probably as I dont have one yet! Those are nice examples, 
  Jim! W. Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "corlissbs" <corlissbs@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Several 
  industrial locomotive builders built locomotives with siderods and some with a 
  jackshaft. Most 4-wheel (critter) locomotives had only one axle driven by a 
  traction motor or transmission. Power to the other axle was done either by use 
  of a roller chain or siderods. Some locos had the traction motor mounted to 
  the rear or front of the axles and used a jackshaft to transmit power. The 
  jackshaft would have to be counterweighted to reduce vibration. So, the answer 
  is "Yes." They both look like typical Whitcomb, Davenport, Porter or other 
  locomotives. Some Porter steam 0-4-0 locomotives had a jackshaft drive. 
  Cylinders inside the frame, driving a jackshaft. Terrible for maint and 
  getting at the parts for lubrication.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
  Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                >

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12046
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: any real prototype ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jim H,  A brief search did not turn anything up on the origin of the word "critter."  It seems to me to have come into more popular use with modelers and raifans in the last 20 years or so.  Here is an interesting article from Trains magazine, but as I said, nothing on the origins. http://trains.com/trn/default.aspx?c=a&id=204  W.Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Brad S, W Jay W,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     Thanks for the responses. I admit that when it comes to my identifying if there is a full size prototype that an HO item is a copy of my knowledge is limited. When I was trying to research this HO item I noticed Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon Vo. II has it as a 1928 Jackshaft Diesel Switcher. The 1928 date seemed early for the prototype. Going to the site W Jay W suggested I see Davenport engines were first made in 1927. It is very interesting how power is supplied to the drivers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>      I'm guessing that the eccentrics on my Gilbert engines acted something like the return cranks on steam.  I'm also guessing the HO model of the Lindsay Little Stubby, although a different looking style from these Gilbert HO engines,  would fall into a Jackshaft  "Critter" category.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>      Last questions. I've seen a lot of these small engines, and also in the responses , referred to by the word "Critter".  Is that just a word for small type engines in general ? Is this a word that was coined by railroads to identify full size prototypes of just a word some use ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                                                                                                                 Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:32 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: any real prototype ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     Hi Jim H. and Brad S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   When confronted by trying to ID any small "Critter" the first website I try is:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   http://www.northeast.railfan.net/industrial.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   I do remember reading an opinion on the origin of the Gilber Ho prototype, but can not recall it, probably as I dont have one yet! Those are nice examples, Jim! W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "corlissbs" <corlissbs@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > Several industrial locomotive builders built locomotives with siderods and some with a jackshaft. Most 4-wheel (critter) locomotives had only one axle driven by a traction motor or transmission. Power to the other axle was done either by use of a roller chain or siderods. Some locos had the traction motor mounted to the rear or front of the axles and used a jackshaft to transmit power. The jackshaft would have to be counterweighted to reduce vibration. So, the answer is "Yes." They both look like typical Whitcomb, Davenport, Porter or other locomotives. Some Porter steam 0-4-0 locomotives had a jackshaft drive. Cylinders inside the frame, driving a jackshaft. Terrible for maint and getting at the parts for lubrication.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12047
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 10/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: any real prototype ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>      Last questions. I've seen a lot of these small engines, and also in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> the responses , referred to by the word "Critter".  Is that just a word 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> for small type engines in general ? Is this a word that was coined by 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> railroads to identify full size prototypes of just a word some use ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    There is actually a Yahoo list dedicated to small locos such as this 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
- Railcritters. Some members there appear have extensive documentation 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
on when individual units were built and their histories of use. Like 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
this list, it's an interesting one to just lurk on and read, if the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
subject interests you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
"Higgamus hoggamus
                                                                                                                                                                                                
"Woman's monogamous,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
"Hoggamus higgamus
                                                                                                                                                                                                
"Man is polygamous."
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    -Ross Barnett, "The Marriage-Go-Round"
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12048
						From: tom leen
						Date: 10/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi MRLENGAL2U,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm looking for the little gray/silver gear that is a press-fit on the motor shaft.  It is for a Chattanooga choo choo that has the motor in the tender.  Believe it or not, even though everyone says it's a piece of junk, it actually ran very well and the smoke unit still works, that's part of the reason I want to fix it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- On Thu, 10/15/09, MRLENGAL2U@... <MRLENGAL2U@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: MRLENGAL2U@... <MRLENGAL2U@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 1:08 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm not exactly clear which gear you are referring to... but I have lots of extra parts for these drives. Are you talking about the very small gear that is on the back side of the pancake motor itself ?... or are you talking about the other gears in between the little one and the drive gears on the backs of the wheels ? Or... are you referring to the weird drive gear that has no wheel ? A picture would be best, but let me know. I know that I will take some heat for this... but although I have a really nice collection of mostly vintage die cast steam and diesel from the Fifties, I also have some TYCO pieces that I really enjoy taking out once in a while to run on my layout. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12049
						From: tom leen
						Date: 10/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Glenn476,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The gear is split and so making the collar won't fix the split.  The split causes the gear to not mesh properly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- On Wed, 10/14/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 11:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                if the gear has a hub, you might make a collar from brass tube that will hold it together.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                From: tom leen 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:55 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Does anyone know where I can find a new pinion gear that fits on the motor shaft of an old TYCO powerTrac locomotive.  My gear is plastic and it split so it does not stay lined up on the shaft anymore.  I've tried gluing it to no luck.  As it is split, when it does run, there is a skip in the drive train when the split in the gear engages the corresponding gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12050
						From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com
						Date: 10/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom... send your mailing address to mrlengal2u@..., and I will mail you some parts to fix your loc

                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12051
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: RED Ball CERA Trailer
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                mrrwarehouse wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The Eastern Michigan trailer SHOULD have had --in the kit box-- a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> printed photo of the prototype. I will try to find a copy to post 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> (after getting Red Ball packed and off to Cheyenne--a time crunch 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> exists on that now). There were several "CERA Trailer" designs. This 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> kit was done courtesy of the late Bill Pepper [who had taken an 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> extensive photos of Michigan and Ontario--some Indiana traction] and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> his son Rob who has helped here from time to time. It is a very 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> legitimate -round ended CERA boxcar--prototype. As I recall only 50 to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 75 of these kits with silk screened wood sides were run.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Model Railroad Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Merle,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
you mention several "CERA Trailer designs" -  do you mean prototype 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
trailers ( I am wella ware of the variety) , or were there several 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
different Red Ball models ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
The instruction sheets have the picture you mention on pg.3, however the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
copy isnt too good so the outline of the roof isnt visible. I would like 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
to compare the prototype roof shape with that of the model, as it may be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
the person who built it removed to much material , and in this case I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
would have to build it up again.   So if you have left any original 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
documentation I would greatly appreciate a copy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 > .
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12052
						From: Ray Marinaccio
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Unfortunately I don't have a spare pinion gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 They are one of the weak points in the Power Torque drives. The gear will expand and slip if the armature overheats then slides off the shaft and gets lost.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 A few of us on the Tyco Collector forum are remotoring these with motors from CD players with excellent results but the original pinion gear must be modified and used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                http://24.149.253.215/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6673

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- On Thu, 10/15/09, tom leen <luvs2drive@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: tom leen <luvs2drive@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 7:22 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Glenn476,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The gear is split and so making the collar won't fix the split.  The split causes the gear to not mesh properly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- On Wed, 10/14/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 11:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                if the gear has a hub, you might make a collar from brass tube that will hold it together.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                From: tom leen 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:55 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Does anyone know where I can find a new pinion gear that fits on the motor shaft of an old TYCO powerTrac locomotive.  My gear is plastic and it split so it does not stay lined up on the shaft anymore.  I've tried gluing it to no luck.  As it is split, when it does run, there is a skip in the drive train when the split in the gear engages the corresponding gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12053
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                




                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

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                                                                                                                                                                                                Athearn News 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                
Greetings!


                                                                                                                                                                                                October 16, 2009
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Effective immediately, we here at Athearn have made the difficult decision to discontinue the production of our Blue Box line of kits.  There were several factors that contributed to this extremely challenging decision however, the primary issue revolved around affordability and ensuring that our Blue Box kit pricing remain aligned with what the market can bear.  Unfortunately,  due to increased manufacturing and labor costs it has been determined that we are no longer able to continue offering kits at competitive price points as compared to our already assembled products.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                For over 50 years the Athearn Blue Box kits have been sold worldwide, bringing happiness, joy and excitement to thousands of model railroad enthusiasts. Your passion for these products has allowed us to thrive and grow into the industry leader you still support today, and for that we are eternally grateful. Moving forward this will allow us to dedicate more resources to new and exciting projects in our Ready To Roll, Genesis and Roundhouse lines for another 50 years, or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                We will continue to support all service and warranty needs on Blue Box kits from our headquarters in Long Beach, California. You can find our contact information here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The Folks at Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


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                                                                                                                                                                                                GenesisN ScaleHO Scale1:50 ScaleHO Scale 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12054
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                
I wonder if it was made in the same factory Lifelike  and Model  Power used years later for it's Chinese production, where  most of their models suffered the same fatal flaw ???

                                                                                                                                                                                                Send me  a reminder later this weekend, and I'll check the two carcasses I have of this steamer to see if they have a good gear. I shelved them after getting them at a swap ages ago. I never really looked at the drives since I wanted them to be unmotored dummy pushers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                You'll have to remind me in a couple of days since I'm part-way through a nasty flu bout, about to go to work , my mind is  in a real fog, and once I get home from the job I'm just going to collapse and sleep.......... maybe after being there for only half of today.

                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm hoping to infect my supervisors and department head as long as they insist I go into work.

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                On Oct 15, 2009, at 9:22 PM, tom leen wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Glenn476,
                                                                                                                                                                                                The gear is split and so making the collar won't fix the split.  The split causes the gear to not mesh properly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- On Wed, 10/14/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Glenn476
                                                                                                                                                                                                if the gear has a hub, you might make a collar from brass tube that will hold it together.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: tom leen
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                Does anyone know where I can find a new pinion gear that fits on the motor shaft of an old TYCO powerTrac locomotive.  My gear is plastic and it split so it does not stay lined up on the shaft anymore.  I've tried gluing it to no luck.  As it is split, when it does run, there is a skip in the drive train when the split in the gear engages the corresponding gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12055
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Gary W., Thanks for the info.  I bet many, especially those outside our group, did not know they still made them!  W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Having trouble viewing this email? Click here. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  October 16, 2009 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Effective immediately, we here at Athearn have made the difficult decision to discontinue the production of our Blue Box line of kits.  There were several factors that contributed to this extremely challenging decision however, the primary issue revolved around affordability and ensuring that our Blue Box kit pricing remain aligned with what the market can bear.  Unfortunately,  due to increased manufacturing and labor costs it has been determined that we are no longer able to continue offering kits at competitive price points as compared to our already assembled products.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> For over 50 years the Athearn Blue Box kits have been sold worldwide, bringing happiness, joy and excitement to thousands of model railroad enthusiasts. Your passion for these products has allowed us to thrive and grow into the industry leader you still support today, and for that we are eternally grateful. Moving forward this will allow us to dedicate more resources to new and exciting projects in our Ready To Roll, Genesis and Roundhouse lines for another 50 years, or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> We will continue to support all service and warranty needs on Blue Box kits from our headquarters in Long Beach, California. You can find our contact information here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The Folks at Athearn   To Unsubscribe
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to the email administrator.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> To Change Your Email Address
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Send a blank email to the email administrator from your old email address and then send a blank email from your new email address to subscribe.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Please be sure to respond to the confirmation email to confirm your subscription.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12056
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: any real prototype ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                The Trains Mag. article is quite good.  However they state that 
Plymouth is the last builder of critters.  They forgot about Brookville 
Locomotive Works of Brookville, PA, who will still build you a critter, or a 
mine locomotive and now has branched out into building road switchers.  
Plymouth is now gone and only Brookville remains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12057
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: any real prototype ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                I believe that the Gilbert critter was patterned after a Davenport, as was 
Mantua/Tyco's side rod critter.  Critter is truly a railfan term.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The counterweights, not eccentrics, are on the jackshaft because the 
jackshaft rotates at a higher speed than the drive wheels and the weight of the 
rod that transmits the power to the wheels would make the jackshaft out of 
balance and thus vibrate, or pound, causing the machinery to have a short 
life.  The counterweight balances out the weight of the connecting rod 
while rotating, just as counterweights do on steam locomotives.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                As I said, there were jackshaft steam locomotives also.  Porter made 
them as did Bell.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12058
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                This is certainly a sad day!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12059
						From: tom leen
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Mike,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                That would be great.  Thank you for getting back to me on this matter.  Feel better soon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- On Fri, 10/16/09, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 11:13 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I wonder if it was made in the same factory Lifelike  and Model  Power used years later for it's Chinese production, where  most of their models suffered the same fatal flaw ???


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Send me  a reminder later this weekend, and I'll check the two carcasses I have of this steamer to see if they have a good gear. I shelved them after getting them at a swap ages ago. I never really looked at the drives since I wanted them to be unmotored dummy pushers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                You'll have to remind me in a couple of days since I'm part-way through a nasty flu bout, about to go to work , my mind is  in a real fog, and once I get home from the job I'm just going to collapse and sleep....... ... maybe after being there for only half of today.
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm hoping to infect my supervisors and department head as long as they insist I go into work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Milwaukee Wi, USA


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                On Oct 15, 2009, at 9:22 PM, tom leen wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Glenn476,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The gear is split and so making the collar won't fix the split.  The split causes the gear to not mesh properly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- On Wed, 10/14/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Glenn476
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                if the gear has a hub, you might make a collar from brass tube that will hold it together.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                From: tom leen
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Does anyone know where I can find a new pinion gear that fits on the motor shaft of an old TYCO powerTrac locomotive.  My gear is plastic and it split so it does not stay lined up on the shaft anymore.  I've tried gluing it to no luck.  As it is split, when it does run, there is a skip in the drive train when the split in the gear engages the corresponding gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12060
						From: tom leen
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi MRLENGAL2U,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thank you for getting back to me on this matter.  Here's my address:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom Leen
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                10 Rockwood Place
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Holbrook, MA  02343-1337
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thank you again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- On Fri, 10/16/09, MRLENGAL2U@... <MRLENGAL2U@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: MRLENGAL2U@... <MRLENGAL2U@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 3:26 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom... send your mailing address to mrlengal2u@aol. com, and I will mail you some parts to fix your loc


                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12061
						From: tom leen
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi MRLENGAL2U,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thank you very much.  Here's my address:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- On Fri, 10/16/09, MRLENGAL2U@... <MRLENGAL2U@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: MRLENGAL2U@... <MRLENGAL2U@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 3:26 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom... send your mailing address to mrlengal2u@aol. com, and I will mail you some parts to fix your loc


                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12062
						From: tom leen
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thank you for getting back to me on this matter.  If you have a re-motored engine, I would love to see a picture of the finished work.  That's an interesting idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- On Fri, 10/16/09, Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 8:06 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Unfortunately I don't have a spare pinion gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 They are one of the weak points in the Power Torque drives. The gear will expand and slip if the armature overheats then slides off the shaft and gets lost.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 A few of us on the Tyco Collector forum are remotoring these with motors from CD players with excellent results but the original pinion gear must be modified and used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                http://24.149. 253.215/tyco/ forum/topic. asp?TOPIC_ ID=6673

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- On Thu, 10/15/09, tom leen <luvs2drive@verizon. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: tom leen <luvs2drive@verizon. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 7:22 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Glenn476,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The gear is split and so making the collar won't fix the split.  The split causes the gear to not mesh properly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- On Wed, 10/14/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 11:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                if the gear has a hub, you might make a collar from brass tube that will hold it together.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                From: tom leen 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:55 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Does anyone know where I can find a new pinion gear that fits on the motor shaft of an old TYCO powerTrac locomotive.  My gear is plastic and it split so it does not stay lined up on the shaft anymore.  I've tried gluing it to no luck.  As it is split, when it does run, there is a skip in the drive train when the split in the gear engages the corresponding gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12063
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Well, I expect blue box kits to be available for a 
very, very long time on ebay.  I figure there are about a bazillion of them 
sitting on people's shelves.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Many model railroaders have always derided the 
"shake the box" kits.  Now they will be missed.  Curious.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Perhaps when the off shore assembly cost starts to 
rise, the "Ready to Roll" line will be offered in a not so ready to roll 
form.  And the circle of shake the box kits will continue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Chuck K.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 5:58 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn News 
  Special Announcement
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Gary W., Thanks for the info. I bet many, especially those outside our 
  group, did not know they still made them! W Jay W. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Having trouble viewing this email? Click here. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > October 16, 2009 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Effective 
  immediately, we here at Athearn have made the difficult decision to 
  discontinue the production of our Blue Box line of kits.  There were 
  several factors that contributed to this extremely challenging decision 
  however, the primary issue revolved around affordability and ensuring that our 
  Blue Box kit pricing remain aligned with what the market can bear.  
  Unfortunately,  due to increased manufacturing and labor costs it has 
  been determined that we are no longer able to continue offering kits at 
  competitive price points as compared to our already assembled 
  products.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > For over 50 years the Athearn Blue Box kits have been sold 
  worldwide, bringing happiness, joy and excitement to thousands of model 
  railroad enthusiasts. Your passion for these products has allowed us to thrive 
  and grow into the industry leader you still support today, and for that we are 
  eternally grateful. Moving forward this will allow us to dedicate more 
  resources to new and exciting projects in our Ready To Roll, Genesis and 
  Roundhouse lines for another 50 years, or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > We will continue to 
  support all service and warranty needs on Blue Box kits from our headquarters 
  in Long Beach, California. You can find our contact information here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
  The Folks at Athearn To Unsubscribe
                                                                                                                                                                                                > To unsubscribe send a blank email 
  to the email administrator.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > To Change Your Email Address
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Send 
  a blank email to the email administrator from your old email address and then 
  send a blank email from your new email address to subscribe.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Please be 
  sure to respond to the confirmation email to confirm your 
  subscription.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12064
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                It's very likely that the costs of off-shore products will raise so  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
very much over the next five years that the general public will be  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
unable to afford them in any form.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
DC economists are making quiet forecasts that are leaking into  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
business news stories of a potential mix of general 75-85 percent  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
income tax rates and a possible 300 percent inflation within 4 years  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
to cover for the world abandoning the Dollar and the Federal  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
government's structural debt of currently 55-trillion in unfunded  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
liabilities. All Federal retirements alone are massively and lavishly  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
promised with no funds set aside for them. This is not considering the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
current proposals of this administration to add now 12-trillion of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
debt over the next 6-10 years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
While the worst may not happen, they -are- talking about the future  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
need to sell federal bonds at 30-percent interest in about 2-3 years,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
just to attract any potential buyers. So expect at least a repeat of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
the Carter recession years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
With the World now officially announcing they will no longer use the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Dollar as their reserve currency in the last few days, this is the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
same as they saying they will no longer automatically buy our treasury  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
bonds which float our continuously on-going deficit spending. DC will  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
have to make our bonds sale much more attractive then the present 1-3  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
percent interest on a Dollar that has lost 33-percent of its value in  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
the last two years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Read more business, world, financial, and economic news items and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
you'll see this is being openly reported, but not compiled together in  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
the general news. It will be tough to sell this years 2-trillion  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
deficit. It will be even harder to do it again for what may be the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
same amount the following year. Expect to see big interest rate hikes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
There's the background to where we sit today. Expect international  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
trade prices to reflect the effect of the insanely exploding deficit  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
and the world shunning the Dollar as an increasingly  hollow national  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
currency.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
You'll read in the news today that Harry Reid is admitting that the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
federal health care plan will cost two trillion instead of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
previously promised 800 billion of a month ago, but they are going to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
go ahead anyway, and it still leaves about 25 million without health  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
care insurance, per their own estimate.  Compare that to how they were  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
wrong about the costs of medicare  by over 50-times of their  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
projection in ten years , and you can gauge just how much this new  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
health likely might prove to increase in cost above their rosy sales- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
pitch promises.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
The tough love of it is that skilled scratch-building is not  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
impossible when we have nearly 100 years of published resources in or  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
hobby magazines and books available to us. The Internet is a huge  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
library of reference material and we have this huge range of materials  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
and tools to use in a hobby that were undreamed of by the modelers of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
50 years ago. There are still a huge number of different detail parts  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
being made in the USA. Painting and assembly are simply learned skills  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
and not rare talents.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
So don't expect overseas hobby kits to be made available in the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
foreseeable future. Don't expect the Athearn dies to ever return to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
the USA.............
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
The future might not be a disaster, DC might actually get enough  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
sanity in time. But it will be at least a bit more  -challenging- than  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
most people now suspect for the near future..................
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Stock up on those #11 blades...........
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Best to Ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 On Oct 16, 2009, at 8:54 AM, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Well, I expect blue box kits to be available for a very, very long  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> time on ebay.  I figure there are about a bazillion of them sitting  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> on people's shelves.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Many model railroaders have always derided the "shake the box"  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> kits.  Now they will be missed.  Curious.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Perhaps when the off shore assembly cost starts to rise, the "Ready  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> to Roll" line will be offered in a not so ready to roll form.  And  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> the circle of shake the box kits will continue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Chuck K.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> From: the_plainsman
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 5:58 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi Gary W., Thanks for the info. I bet many, especially those  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> outside our group, did not know they still made them! W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Having trouble viewing this email? Click here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > October 16, 2009
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Effective immediately, we here at Athearn have made the difficult  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> decision to discontinue the production of our Blue Box line of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> kits.  There were several factors that contributed to this extremely  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> challenging decision however, the primary issue revolved around  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> affordability and ensuring that our Blue Box kit pricing remain  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> aligned with what the market can bear.  Unfortunately,  due to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> increased manufacturing and labor costs it has been determined that  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> we are no longer able to continue offering kits at competitive price  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> points as compared to our already assembled products.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > For over 50 years the Athearn Blue Box kits have been sold  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> worldwide, bringing happiness, joy and excitement to thousands of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> model railroad enthusiasts. Your passion for these products has  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> allowed us to thrive and grow into the industry leader you still  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> support today, and for that we are eternally grateful. Moving  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> forward this will allow us to dedicate more resources to new and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> exciting projects in our Ready To Roll, Genesis and Roundhouse lines  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> for another 50 years, or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > We will continue to support all service and warranty needs on Blue  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Box kits from our headquarters in Long Beach, California. You can  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> find our contact information here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > The Folks at Athearn To Unsubscribe
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to the email administrator.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > To Change Your Email Address
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Send a blank email to the email administrator from your old email  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> address and then send a blank email from your new email address to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> subscribe.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Please be sure to respond to the confirmation email to confirm  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> your subscription. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12065
						From: Ray Marinaccio
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The locos with tender drive thst I remotored were left original in apearence on the outside.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 You wouldn't know the difference from them and an original loco untill you try to run them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 I did remotor one by putting a motor in the cab of the locomotive that drives the locomotive's drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.2guyzandsumtrains.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=558.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- On Fri, 10/16/09, tom leen <luvs2drive@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: tom leen <luvs2drive@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 5:52 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                





                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thank you for getting back to me on this matter.  If you have a re-motored engine, I would love to see a picture of the finished work.  That's an interesting idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- On Fri, 10/16/09, Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 8:06 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Unfortunately I don't have a spare pinion gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 They are one of the weak points in the Power Torque drives. The gear will expand and slip if the armature overheats then slides off the shaft and gets lost.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 A few of us on the Tyco Collector forum are remotoring these with motors from CD players with excellent results but the original pinion gear must be modified and used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                http://24.149. 253.215/tyco/ forum/topic. asp?TOPIC_ ID=6673

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- On Thu, 10/15/09, tom leen <luvs2drive@verizon. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: tom leen <luvs2drive@verizon. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 7:22 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Glenn476,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The gear is split and so making the collar won't fix the split.  The split causes the gear to not mesh properly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- On Wed, 10/14/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 11:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                if the gear has a hub, you might make a collar from brass tube that will hold it together.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                From: tom leen 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:55 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Does anyone know where I can find a new pinion gear that fits on the motor shaft of an old TYCO powerTrac locomotive.  My gear is plastic and it split so it does not stay lined up on the shaft anymore.  I've tried gluing it to no luck.  As it is split, when it does run, there is a skip in the drive train when the split in the gear engages the corresponding gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.16/2435 - Release Date: 10/14/09 06:33:00


                                                                                                                                                                                                




                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12066
						From: RalphB
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chuck K. wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Perhaps when the off shore assembly cost starts to rise, the "Ready to Roll" line will be offered in a not so ready to roll form.  And the circle of shake the box kits will continue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                -------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                
One can only hope it's before we're dead and buried.  I, for one, won't be buying much from Athearn any more.  Even their blue box R-T-R locomotives needed a little bit of assembly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I was really disappointed when Horizon Hobby converted all the "modern era" MDC/Roundhouse kits to the new Athearn "Ready-to-Roll" line.  The more recent MDC shake-the-box kits were real nice, much better than Athearn's.  Now we won't have either of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12067
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                corlissbs@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 > This is certainly a sad day!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    So are prices on Blue Box kits going to begin skyrocketing like 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Central Valley kits?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
"Smoking kills. If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
your life,"
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    -Brooke Shields, during an interview to become Spokesperson for a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
federal anti - smoking campaign
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12068
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I think we'll also see articles on-line about how to rework those old  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
parts into home casting masters and make our own much-improved  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
duplicates for a few pennies a shell or part.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Did you save a couple of those old Central Valley kits to rebirth into  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
contemporary models via common computer tools like I did?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Best to Ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 On Oct 16, 2009, at 10:56 AM, Rick Jones wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
> corlissbs@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> This is certainly a sad day!
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>    So are prices on Blue Box kits going to begin skyrocketing like
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Central Valley kits? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12069
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                Mike, even if you could cast clones of Athearn cars, Walthers and Champ 
have discontinued decal production.  You are stuck with Microscale and a 
limited selection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                My hobby shop people tell me that almost nobody wants to build anything 
anymore and customers ask them to assemble the kits for them.  Perhaps they 
lack the skills to build.  Perhaps the time?  Perhaps they were never 
offered any shop courses in school.  Perhaps they spent their youth in 
front of a computer playing games.  The Athearn kits were the norm when I 
grew up.  I guess that Varney, Gilbert, Revell and Mantua offered RTR HO 
locos and cars.  I had a Gilbert 0-6-0 and a Mantua F9.  The rest were 
Athearn kits.  As I said, it is really a sad day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Today we need EZ Track.  Can't even lay roadbed and flex track!  
Oh, yes, today we can have a virtual layout complete with any trains we want in 
a computer program.  We can operate the layout, switch cars, 
etc. with hundreds of layouts to pick from.   Maybe we don't 
need Athearn at all anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12070
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Brad,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The V scale trains, or computer generated stuff is a little different, and is the new wave in scratchbuilding, (ever try to work a graphics program for content creation?), so it isn't all that easy on the virtual railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I grew up with Athearn and MDC kits, and enjoyed them over the years, and I will miss them, my local dealer does have a supply of these kits, some of them dating back to the 70's, 80's and even upto some of the more recent production, what I find hard to believe is that there are actually people out there who are incapable of building an Athearn kit!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: "corlissbs@..." <corlissbs@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Fri, October 16, 2009 3:38:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn News Special Announcement

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Mike, even if you could cast clones of Athearn cars, Walthers and Champ have discontinued decal production.  You are stuck with Microscale and a limited selection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                My hobby shop people tell me that almost nobody wants to build anything anymore and customers ask them to assemble the kits for them.  Perhaps they lack the skills to build.  Perhaps the time?  Perhaps they were never offered any shop courses in school.  Perhaps they spent their youth in front of a computer playing games.  The Athearn kits were the norm when I grew up.  I guess that Varney, Gilbert, Revell and Mantua offered RTR HO locos and cars.  I had a Gilbert 0-6-0 and a Mantua F9.  The rest were Athearn kits.  As I said, it is really a sad day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Today we need EZ Track.  Can't even lay roadbed and flex track!  Oh, yes, today we can have a virtual layout complete with any trains we want in a computer program.  We can operate the layout, switch cars, etc. with hundreds of layouts to pick from.   Maybe we don't need Athearn at all anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Franklin, WI

                                                                                                                                                                                                

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12071
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Intimidating for me might be a Arbour Models or Winton kit.. Certainly not Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I built my first glue/assemble model kit at age 6. It was a mid 50's red corvette. Still rember smashing it for the first time.. about 3 days after building it..  What fun!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Fri, October 16, 2009 4:13:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn News Special Announcement

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Brad,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The V scale trains, or computer generated stuff is a little different, and is the new wave in scratchbuilding, (ever try to work a graphics program for content creation?), so it isn't all that easy on the virtual railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I grew up with Athearn and MDC kits, and enjoyed them over the years, and I will miss them, my local dealer does have a supply of these kits, some of them dating back to the 70's, 80's and even upto some of the more recent production, what I find hard to believe is that there are actually people out there who are incapable of building an Athearn kit!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: "corlissbs@aol. com" <corlissbs@aol. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Fri, October 16, 2009 3:38:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn News Special Announcement

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Mike, even if you could cast clones of Athearn cars, Walthers and Champ have discontinued decal production.  You are stuck with Microscale and a limited selection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                My hobby shop people tell me that almost nobody wants to build anything anymore and customers ask them to assemble the kits for them.  Perhaps they lack the skills to build.  Perhaps the time?  Perhaps they were never offered any shop courses in school.  Perhaps they spent their youth in front of a computer playing games.  The Athearn kits were the norm when I grew up.  I guess that Varney, Gilbert, Revell and Mantua offered RTR HO locos and cars.  I had a Gilbert 0-6-0 and a Mantua F9.  The rest were Athearn kits.  As I said, it is really a sad day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Today we need EZ Track.  Can't even lay roadbed and flex track!  Oh, yes, today we can have a virtual layout complete with any trains we want in a computer program.  We can operate the layout, switch cars, etc. with hundreds of layouts to pick from.   Maybe we don't need Athearn at all anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Franklin, WI


                                                                                                                                                                                                

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12072
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Mike Bauers wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 > I think we'll also see articles on-line about how to rework those old  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> parts into home casting masters and make our own much-improved  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> duplicates for a few pennies a shell or part.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Did you save a couple of those old Central Valley kits to rebirth into  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> contemporary models via common computer tools like I did?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have around 30, maybe a bit more, of the CV kits unbuilt. But no, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I have no idea how to redo them with CAM tooling.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
He who laughs, lasts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12073
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi WJayW,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I only knew it because my local dealer still carries them, that is, when he can get them, looks like he may run into a little snage trying to order stuff now, hope he can still get parts, especially engine parts, he's been having problems with that lately also..
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Fri, October 16, 2009 8:58:50 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn News Special Announcement

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Gary W., Thanks for the info. I bet many, especially those outside our group, did not know they still made them! W Jay W. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Having trouble viewing this email? Click here. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > October 16, 2009 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Effective immediately, we here at Athearn have made the difficult decision to discontinue the production of our Blue Box line of kits.  There were several factors that contributed to this extremely challenging decision however, the primary issue revolved around affordability and ensuring that our Blue Box kit pricing remain aligned with what the market can bear.  Unfortunately,  due to increased manufacturing and labor costs it has been determined that
 we are no longer able to continue offering kits at competitive price points as compared to our already assembled products.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > For over 50 years the Athearn Blue Box kits have been sold worldwide, bringing happiness, joy and excitement to thousands of model railroad enthusiasts. Your passion for these products has allowed us to thrive and grow into the industry leader you still support today, and for that we are eternally grateful. Moving forward this will allow us to dedicate more resources to new and exciting projects in our Ready To Roll, Genesis and Roundhouse lines for another 50 years, or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > We will continue to support all service and warranty needs on Blue Box kits from our headquarters in Long Beach, California. You can find our contact information here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > The Folks at Athearn To Unsubscribe
                                                                                                                                                                                                > To unsubscribe send a blank email to the email administrator.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > To Change Your Email Address
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Send a blank email
 to the email administrator from your old email address and then send a blank email from your new email address to subscribe.
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Please be sure to respond to the confirmation email to confirm your subscription.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >


                                                                                                                                                                                                

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12074
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I am just thankfull I have some 300+ New Haven freight decals sitting in my sealed storage bin. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                When and if ever I get to use them, I most likely will not run out. ...at this rate, anyway...
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: "corlissbs@..." <corlissbs@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Fri, October 16, 2009 3:38:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn News Special Announcement

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Mike, even if you could cast clones of Athearn cars, Walthers and Champ have discontinued decal production.  You are stuck with Microscale and a limited selection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                My hobby shop people tell me that almost nobody wants to build anything anymore and customers ask them to assemble the kits for them.  Perhaps they lack the skills to build.  Perhaps the time?  Perhaps they were never offered any shop courses in school.  Perhaps they spent their youth in front of a computer playing games.  The Athearn kits were the norm when I grew up.  I guess that Varney, Gilbert, Revell and Mantua offered RTR HO locos and cars.  I had a Gilbert 0-6-0 and a Mantua F9.  The rest were Athearn kits.  As I said, it is really a sad day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Today we need EZ Track.  Can't even lay roadbed and flex track!  Oh, yes, today we can have a virtual layout complete with any trains we want in a computer program.  We can operate the layout, switch cars, etc. with hundreds of layouts to pick from.   Maybe we don't need Athearn at all anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Franklin, WI

                                                                                                                                                                                                

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12075
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I use EZ track myself, because in my apartment, we do not have climate control, just an 'all or nothing' air conditioner in the summer, and it gets very hot in  winter with the heating system.

                                                                                                                                                                                                So I have had issues with the plywood and cork roadbed. Plus, the AC unit, during the summer, is above the layout's corner, and it leaks badly sometimes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                So, I spent entirely too much time fixing bad or warped track, and not enough time enjoying operations.

                                                                                                                                                                                                One of my customers I built a website for, he gave me a rubbermaid continer full of EZ track. I decided to pull up my flextrack and such, and replace all my track with EZ track.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Layout works, and I am not concerned about warping anymore!

                                                                                                                                                                                                My other thought, is that no one has the time or paitence anymore foe even an Athearn kit. My friend Bob, that runs the hobby shop, sent me home
 with 80 blue box kits that were from his private collection that he wanted to sell. He is having me assemble them, and put better trucks on them, and he will sell them as ready to run.

                                                                                                                                                                                                I am paid in railroad supplies for my work, even.

                                                                                                                                                                                                I am 25 years of age, and I find out of the few other modelers that I know, that are my age, none of them want to do what I do in this hobby- working in wood and card, hand building everything. Many of my structures are card, balsa, and basswood. Their gratification in this hobby is not in building, it is in running. They don't mind paying more for something assembled, they just want to see it run.

                                                                                                                                                                                                My gratification is in buying on the cheap old wood and card train cars that are looking rather ratty, and restoring them to their former glory of decades ago. It is how I unwind from long days building computers and fixing them for customers. In the evenings, I want to forget 2009 and live like it is 1939,
 with my 78 RPM records playing while I work on antique trains.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Still, I agree that it is hard to imagine an Athearn kit being too hard, but times have changed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                A Comet boxcar or reefer cost 35 cents less trucks in the late '30s. It came as wood pieces and a set of embossed card overlays. I assembled one start to finish in my spare time and it took a couple days, with adding some nice undeframe wire detail.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Back in the '30s, people looked for inexpensive diversions. A model kit that might take a few days to build, then would provide additional enjoyment as a running train car, was a decent value for the amount it cost per hour of work on it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Now we are in 'Great Depression II" a kit would be a good way to spend spare time. So it almost baffles me when I see ready to run trains more popular than kits.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Anyway, my pain meds for my back problem are kicking in, so I can't type much longer. Must get some sleep.

                                                                                                                                                                                                -Steve
 Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- On Fri, 10/16/09, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn News Special Announcement
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 3:22 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                




 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Intimidating for me might be a Arbour Models or Winton kit.. Certainly not Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I built my first glue/assemble model kit at age 6. It was a mid 50's red corvette. Still rember smashing it for the first time.. about 3 days after building it..  What fun!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Fri, October 16, 2009 4:13:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn News Special Announcement

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Brad,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The V scale trains, or computer generated stuff is a little different, and is the new wave in scratchbuilding, (ever try to work a graphics program for content creation?), so it isn't all that easy on the virtual railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I grew up with Athearn and MDC kits, and enjoyed them over the years, and I will miss them, my local dealer does have a supply of these kits, some of them dating back to the 70's, 80's and even upto some of the more recent production, what I find hard to believe is that there are actually people out there who are incapable of building an Athearn kit!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: "corlissbs@aol. com" <corlissbs@aol. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Fri, October 16, 2009 3:38:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn News Special Announcement

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Mike, even if you could cast clones of Athearn cars, Walthers and Champ have discontinued decal production.  You are stuck with Microscale and a limited selection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                My hobby shop people tell me that almost nobody wants to build anything anymore and customers ask them to assemble the kits for them.  Perhaps they lack the skills to build.  Perhaps the time?  Perhaps they were never offered any shop courses in school.  Perhaps they spent their youth in front of a computer playing games.  The Athearn kits were the norm when I grew up.  I guess that Varney, Gilbert, Revell and Mantua offered RTR HO locos and cars.  I had a Gilbert 0-6-0 and a Mantua F9.  The rest were Athearn kits.  As I said, it is really a sad day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Today we need EZ Track.  Can't even lay roadbed and flex track!  Oh, yes, today we can have a virtual layout complete with any trains we want in a computer program.  We can operate the layout, switch cars, etc. with hundreds of layouts to pick from.   Maybe we don't need Athearn at all anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Franklin, WI


                                                                                                                                                                                                

      
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


	 
	
	
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12076
						From: mrrwarehouse
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                That niche in the HO market is still filled by a "Made in USA" company-- Accurail.  Lets see if their sales pick up at hobby shops now.  The saddest part [for the hobby's future] is that kits in general are disappearing and "entry level" kits are a "must have" if future generations are to be developed. [In my opinion]. I couldn't advertise and put out an empty labelled box with instructions to throw it away for the price Irv set on full blue boxes 20-30 yrs ago-- and neither could his "competition"
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Model RR Warehouse. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Well, I expect blue box kits to be available for a very, very long time on ebay.  I figure there are about a bazillion of them sitting on people's shelves.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Many model railroaders have always derided the "shake the box" kits.  Now they will be missed.  Curious.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Perhaps when the off shore assembly cost starts to rise, the "Ready to Roll" line will be offered in a not so ready to roll form.  And the circle of shake the box kits will continue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Chuck K.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 5:58 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     Hi Gary W., Thanks for the info. I bet many, especially those outside our group, did not know they still made them! W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > Having trouble viewing this email? Click here. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > October 16, 2009 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > Effective immediately, we here at Athearn have made the difficult decision to discontinue the production of our Blue Box line of kits.  There were several factors that contributed to this extremely challenging decision however, the primary issue revolved around affordability and ensuring that our Blue Box kit pricing remain aligned with what the market can bear.  Unfortunately,  due to increased manufacturing and labor costs it has been determined that we are no longer able to continue offering kits at competitive price points as compared to our already assembled products.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > For over 50 years the Athearn Blue Box kits have been sold worldwide, bringing happiness, joy and excitement to thousands of model railroad enthusiasts. Your passion for these products has allowed us to thrive and grow into the industry leader you still support today, and for that we are eternally grateful. Moving forward this will allow us to dedicate more resources to new and exciting projects in our Ready To Roll, Genesis and Roundhouse lines for another 50 years, or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > We will continue to support all service and warranty needs on Blue Box kits from our headquarters in Long Beach, California. You can find our contact information here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > The Folks at Athearn To Unsubscribe
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > To unsubscribe send a blank email to the email administrator.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > To Change Your Email Address
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > Send a blank email to the email administrator from your old email address and then send a blank email from your new email address to subscribe.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > Please be sure to respond to the confirmation email to confirm your subscription.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12077
						From: tom leen
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi MRLENGAL2U,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm looking for the little gray/silver gear that is a press-fit on the motor shaft.  It is for a Chattanooga choo choo that has the motor in the tender.  Believe it or not, even though everyone says it's a piece of junk, it actually ran very well and the smoke unit still works, that's part of the reason I want to fix it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- On Thu, 10/15/09, MRLENGAL2U@... <MRLENGAL2U@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: MRLENGAL2U@... <MRLENGAL2U@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 1:08 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm not exactly clear which gear you are referring to... but I have lots of extra parts for these drives. Are you talking about the very small gear that is on the back side of the pancake motor itself ?... or are you talking about the other gears in between the little one and the drive gears on the backs of the wheels ? Or... are you referring to the weird drive gear that has no wheel ? A picture would be best, but let me know. I know that I will take some heat for this... but although I have a really nice collection of mostly vintage die cast steam and diesel from the Fifties, I also have some TYCO pieces that I really enjoy taking out once in a while to run on my layout. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12078
						From: tom leen
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Nice work, Ray.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- On Fri, 10/16/09, Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 3:50 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The locos with tender drive thst I remotored were left original in apearence on the outside.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 You wouldn't know the difference from them and an original loco untill you try to run them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 I did remotor one by putting a motor in the cab of the locomotive that drives the locomotive's drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.2guyzand sumtrains. com/Forums/ viewtopic/ t=558.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                --- On Fri, 10/16/09, tom leen <luvs2drive@verizon. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: tom leen <luvs2drive@verizon. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 5:52 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thank you for getting back to me on this matter.  If you have a re-motored engine, I would love to see a picture of the finished work.  That's an interesting idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- On Fri, 10/16/09, Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 8:06 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Unfortunately I don't have a spare pinion gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 They are one of the weak points in the Power Torque drives. The gear will expand and slip if the armature overheats then slides off the shaft and gets lost.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 A few of us on the Tyco Collector forum are remotoring these with motors from CD players with excellent results but the original pinion gear must be modified and used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                http://24.149. 253.215/tyco/ forum/topic. asp?TOPIC_ ID=6673

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- On Thu, 10/15/09, tom leen <luvs2drive@verizon. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: tom leen <luvs2drive@verizon. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 7:22 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Glenn476,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The gear is split and so making the collar won't fix the split.  The split causes the gear to not mesh properly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- On Wed, 10/14/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 11:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                if the gear has a hub, you might make a collar from brass tube that will hold it together.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                From: tom leen 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:55 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Does anyone know where I can find a new pinion gear that fits on the motor shaft of an old TYCO powerTrac locomotive.  My gear is plastic and it split so it does not stay lined up on the shaft anymore.  I've tried gluing it to no luck.  As it is split, when it does run, there is a skip in the drive train when the split in the gear engages the corresponding gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                



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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12079
						From: morgantownrr
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: any real prototype ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Expecting that someone else has answered this query, at the risk of being repetitious; "critter" is a mispronouciation of "creature."
                                                                                                                                                                                                
MorganS
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12080
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I do what you are saying.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I'm home, sick with the Flu, So I can spend some time on this reply.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
There's a hidden side of the hobby that you are missing. Once the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
folks that want to buy kits realize that a LHS, or any hobby  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
distributor is no longer carrying interesting kits, or needed parts,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
they seldom go back there. Even to the point of not going there again.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
The complexion of the evolving customer base then is one that mirrors  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
what's available in the LHS.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I saw this in the general model railroad population even 20 years ago.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I know and knew a large number of very skilled modelers that were  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
constantly working in pure pleasure in the hobby. I'd go to the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
monthly NMRA meets which were hot-beds of how to clinics and like  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
souls gathering.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Those many skilled modelers rarely would go there. The frequent basic  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
how-to's were just not interesting to the modeling guild that was  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
making their narrow gauge passenger trains completely from scratch  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
with just a few detail parts mixed in. I have a short train of three  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
scratch-built HOn3 passenger cars one of those fellows made and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
donated to a local college model railroad I belonged to, that later  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
went all mainline HO. That fellow taught me how to make my own code 70  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
HOn3 turnouts, almost every inch of his basement was a scratch-built  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
RGS layout of such fine quality it became a feature article in MR.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
You ever see something as delicate as HOn3 passenger cars made with  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
scratch-built, hollow clerestory roofs complete with upper windows and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
only a few castings like the trucks, couplers, and brake system ?? I'm  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
not sure if -any- of the buildings on the layout was a commercial  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
building. He showed me how to make them from strip-wood in  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
strategically thin-sheet  layered construction  to build and detail  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
the window frames into the assembly of the building. the more detailed  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
doors were suitable detail parts from companies like Grandt Line.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Where nice looking extra details were available, those were ordered  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
and used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Those meets always advertised what was scheduled a few meets in  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
advance and when a clinic or two of real interest was scheduled, those  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
more experienced modelers would show up, enjoy the clinic, and learn  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
new techniques.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
They  would occasionally be the after meet train layout open house,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
even if they rarely went to the monthly meets. They were almost always  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
on the routes for the regional and even the national NMRA conventions  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
that rolled around from time to time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
But as for the LHS, if they wouldn't special order for them and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
generally had no other items of interest to them, they never returned  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
to that one. Most of what they needed had to be ordered from  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
specialized companies that didn't sell to the LHS's, so those items  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
were ordered direct. When they wanted more common items like Jordan  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
highway trucks, cars, and wagons; they would be sure to get those from  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
the shelves of the favorite LHS and have the fellow order the other  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
ones that were not in the store, for them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
They did buy a lot of the conventional stuff for their layouts. But  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
only from their favorite LHS's. Of course........ If Walthers or  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
ConCor cataloged anything that was in their interest that LHS got  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
those orders instead of the companies directly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
They were and are one of several local groups of modelers that get  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
together between themselves to share their latest methods and help  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
others reach the same level of DIY. Few of them ever get to the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
majority of the LHS's that are useless to them, No wonder those LHS's  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
think those customers don't exist.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I can tell you with assurance, there are a lot of those folks still  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
out  there today, Most of the now-average LHS will never see them, but  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
they will hear about what those folks are modeling,.................  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
and Caboose Hobbies and similar full service hobby shops have strong  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
long distance relationships with those folks that have gone on for  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
many years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Even Microscale decals were bought in large amounts from certain LHS's
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Today's LHS's are still selling to the folks that match what they  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
carry. Many of those same LHS's don't stock the four makes of flex  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
track. While the few that do, sell quite a bit of that as well as EZ  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
track. They'll only see the more skilled modelers for the occasional  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
scenic road car or other minor buys.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
You live in Franklin.......... go over to Greenfield News and Hobby at  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
the corner of 68th and  Layton. Walk past the EZtrack section and look  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
at all of the rest of the rather largish and varied model RR section,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
browse the extensive selection of tools, paints, supplies, and all the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
specialized non-RR kits in the rest of the store.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I'll bet you know that place well already and go there often. I live  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
nine miles away on the other side of town and it's the only LHS I now  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
bother going to. I buy a lot of normal RR stuff like n-scale, HO  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
scale, On30 engines with mostly HO scenic  details a few building  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
kits, lots of scenery stuff. Most of my quite different engine buys  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
are intended to go into quite different ends.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I recently bought Bachmann HO PCC's because I realized they were the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
perfect size and trucks to make a few of these....
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://www.wimryhpg.com/WPQ/WPQ6-3.pdf
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://www.onewest.net/~rstewart/wim/equip/potlatcher.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/97127/sn/1419128216/name/n_a
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
You're not stuck with any one make of decal if you follow the several  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
articles on making your own from your computer. I'll grant that works  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
best for private roads, or from photos. I can tell you that one of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
best routes are the $100 or so waterproof ink photoprinters using  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
laser decal paper. Using that with Microscale decals lets you have  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
just about any decal you'd like. There is a fellow on-line that has  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
the major specialized fonts of the big and not so big RR's available  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
for free and a low price depending on which fonts you want.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
When Walthers was about to drop certain regional trolley decals along  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
time ago, I bought one of each of the sets they had. It was about all  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
that I could afford. A couple of years later I was using a high  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
powered, low cost graphics suite to remake them from the data I found  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
in books and photos of the equipment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I just muddled my way through mostly using snapshots while duplicating  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
the complex herald and tweaking close fonts to be an exact match. It  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
was strictly the matter of looking for the next feature of the program  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I wanted to use and then doing that operation. I was very careful and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
did a lot of incremental saves and test-prints........... and in 2-3  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
hours I had exact matches to the local equipment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Then I compared the final to the commercial decals and the Walthers  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
decals were pure CRAP......... They were fuzzy, completely the wrong  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
lettering color, no outline on their lettering and for the HO sets,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
they -always- used the O scale heralds. Heck mine are shiny metallic  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
lettering as the original silver lettering is when theirs were off- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
gray. I printed my at the default of 600 dpi and theirs had to be only  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
about blurry 50 dpi by eyeball comparison.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I'm telling this to let you know that just going step by step with  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
directions will allow an average newbie to make up for the occasional  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
hobby supply market omission.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I'm sure most anyone can use a decent art program to change colors of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
artwork, do simple drawing, then test printing, measuring and drawing  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
adjustment to make their own decals. I know people that have done it  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
with a greeting card program and others that do it with the better  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
text editing program included for free in Windows. I've even seen  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
articles and exchanged emails with a fellow in Japan that created his  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
models and their construction templates in Windows Draw, then had one  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
or two articles on it in Shortline and Narrow Gauge Gazette several  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
years back. The average $300 computer is at least 10 times the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
computer that he had back then.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Which is all part of my case as to why we need more complete LHS like  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Greenfield News and Hobby. LHS's that aren't afraid to carry more than  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
just the common denominator hobby items like those shops that think  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
they can survive by only stocking for the EZtrack crowd. Those model  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
train mags are always showing the customer a bit about how he can make  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
models even if there is nothing he can buy ready in a box. Eventually  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
the customer will decide to modify something that is close. Maybe  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
he'll decide to make some of his own trees from supplies he sees in  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
the LHS. Maybe he'll notice in the crafts section that little old  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
grandmothers are making complex constructions with low priced cutting  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
machines that look a lot like a computer printer......... and can make  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
similar parts to the bulk of and most details of a model railroad  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
freight/passenger car.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I probably made my point a few times in this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Hey, the next time you get to Greenfield News, go into the very center  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
of the magazine section, look to the west side of the aisle and go  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
through the computer magazines with bundled cd/dvd's. You find several  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
of them with hundreds of included computer programs for graphics and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
design. Don't overlook the computer graphics magazines, they often  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
include complete bundles of graphic suites that would have cost you  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
several hundreds of dollars just a couple of years ago when they were  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
fresh.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
One of the neatest included programs I got this way was one that lets  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
me make scale graph paper........... HO scale grid graph paper would  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
have been a pain to find, now I can print out as many new sheets of it  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
as I want for years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
By the way......... look over their casting display and supplies while  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
you're there. If you go into the rack of plastruc in the paint  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
section, you'll find in the checker-plate section very finely detailed  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Z-scale deckplate. That makes great HO and O scale radiator faces. As  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
you pass from the model RR department to the magazines, you'll pass a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
wall of art papers and sketchbooks. I'll bet your eye will catch the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
mirror-surface posterboard sized sheets of reflective mirror surface  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
silver and gold cardstock. At the least, the silver is perfect for  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
working scale mirror on your RR models................ it's also got  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
great potential for making steamlined passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Of course it helps to know how to find those older articles and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
contemporary articles that tell the modeler how to build with that  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
stuff...............
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Like all of or model RR, plane, car, ship and military magazines have  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
been doing since about 1920.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Since I'm making a number of these for myself.......... would you like  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
a 'kit' of a body somewhere in mid-winter? Perhaps all in mirror- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
stainless card stock with full relief and depth of surfaces? [Multiple  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
custom layers]
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/97127/sn/1590111950/name/n_a
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Or in a fully decorated photo-real set of similar parts that build up  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
the same way??? Pick your colors and feed me a couple of names to put  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
on it, show me what style of lettering to use and I'll give you a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
custom version. Throw together a rough sketch of  how to paint it, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I'll give you the 'kit' fully decorated, complete with 'stainless- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
steel ' window framing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Just like I wrote, I'll -give- you this. It fits well on an HO PCC, if  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
in HO. If in N-scale. I have those mechs here to make proper N-scale  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
versions as well. It might have been in bright green and yellow. You  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
can have it in anything you'd like. [ I keep my mechs...]
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Thus I mention low cost photo-printers, little-old-grannies cnc- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
cutters, and the craft section of a good LHS with some vision of how  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
they can be used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I know some of my buddies are seeing this, same offer to them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I'm far afield here. But you can see how a full featured LHS led me to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
it from my first basic model railroad kits......... and leads others  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
along the same direction, if not to the same degree.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
8^)
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Best to Ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 On Oct 16, 2009, at 2:38 PM, corlissbs@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Mike, even if you could cast clones of Athearn cars, Walthers and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Champ have discontinued decal production.  You are stuck with  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Microscale and a limited selection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> My hobby shop people tell me that almost nobody wants to build  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> anything anymore and customers ask them to assemble the kits for  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> them.  Perhaps they lack the skills to build.  Perhaps the time?   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Perhaps they were never offered any shop courses in school.  Perhaps  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> they spent their youth in front of a computer playing games.  The  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Athearn kits were the norm when I grew up.  I guess that Varney,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Gilbert, Revell and Mantua offered RTR HO locos and cars.  I had a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Gilbert 0-6-0 and a Mantua F9.  The rest were Athearn kits.  As I  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> said, it is really a sad day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Today we need EZ Track.  Can't even lay roadbed and flex track!  Oh,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> yes, today we can have a virtual layout complete with any trains we  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> want in a computer program.  We can operate the layout, switch cars,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> etc. with hundreds of layouts to pick from.   Maybe we don't need  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Athearn at all anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Franklin, WI 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12081
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Do you remember the fairly common 3 in 1 300-parts 1/25th scale  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
plastic car kits???
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Man those were serious FUN !!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Best to Ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 On Oct 16, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Sean Naylor wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Intimidating for me might be a Arbour Models or Winton kit..  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Certainly not Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I built my first glue/assemble model kit at age 6. It was a mid 50's  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> red corvette. Still rember smashing it for the first time.. about 3  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> days after building it..  What fun!
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> From: Gary Woodard
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi Brad,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The V scale trains, or computer generated stuff is a little  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> different, and is the new wave in scratchbuilding, (ever try to work  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> a graphics program for content creation?), so it isn't all that easy  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> on the virtual railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I grew up with Athearn and MDC kits, and enjoyed them over the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> years, and I will miss them, my local dealer does have a supply of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> these kits, some of them dating back to the 70's, 80's and even upto  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> some of the more recent production, what I find hard to believe is  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> that there are actually people out there who are incapable of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> building an Athearn kit!
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> From: "corlissbs@aol. com"
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Mike, even if you could cast clones of Athearn cars, Walthers and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Champ have discontinued decal production.  You are stuck with  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Microscale and a limited selection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> My hobby shop people tell me that almost nobody wants to build  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> anything anymore and customers ask them to assemble the kits for  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> them.  Perhaps they lack the skills to build.  Perhaps the time?   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Perhaps they were never offered any shop courses in school.  Perhaps  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> they spent their youth in front of a computer playing games.  The  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Athearn kits were the norm when I grew up.  I guess that Varney,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Gilbert, Revell and Mantua offered RTR HO locos and cars.  I had a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Gilbert 0-6-0 and a Mantua F9.  The rest were Athearn kits.  As I  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> said, it is really a sad day............ 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12082
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                You're thinking too complexly......
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
You can do much the same if you use the sheet and strip methods of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
making a wood or styrene model with outer layers of photo images of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
those cars. Separate sides, roof panels, doors, just like the original  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
kit parts
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Then you are down to a good color printer, either laser or photo- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
printer, down as cheap as $80 today, and traditional model  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
construction with non-warping gluing. add in most any common home  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
computer flatbed scanner, as low as $50.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Get some trucks, some brake details, add some ladders or separate  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
grabs, and freely build a nice looking fleet of the one cat you might  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
truly like and only have one kit of. [ change the car numbers in a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
capable graphics program; often a free open-source program you might  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
like GIMP, I can point you to a site that links to dozens of that sort  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
of program as well as free cad programs]
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
You'll need to make a trip to a local arts or crafts supply store to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
find the right matching color fine-tip marker for any edges that show  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
of the overlays.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
So then you do your car building with ordinary hand- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
tools................... in much the same way, with similar parts to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
what is in the original kits. You'll even have very good looking  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
scribed-looking siding looking just like the original from further  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
than an inch away from the model.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
You could even make photo-real full panel/part decals from the photo- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
printer or color laser that you then put over hobby-shop scribed sided  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Best to Ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 On Oct 16, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Rick Jones wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Mike Bauers wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> I think we'll also see articles on-line about how to rework those old
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> parts into home casting masters and make our own much-improved
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> duplicates for a few pennies a shell or part.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> Did you save a couple of those old Central Valley kits to rebirth  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> into
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> contemporary models via common computer tools like I did?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>    I have around 30, maybe a bit more, of the CV kits unbuilt. But no,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I have no idea how to redo them with CAM tooling. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12083
						From: wildwoodjct
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Athearn 'Blue Box' kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I have to contribute my feelings about the end of the `Blue Box' kits from Athearn. This I did anticipate just like the demise of Kodachrome also this year. The `Blue Box' kits for me are now vintage. I think that many of us enjoyed assembling them just like the MDC and Train-Miniature kits. However, I am hoping that the `Blue Box' kits will be available at some of the  train meets at least for the next few years. What are your expectations about availability at train meets? Athearn `Blue Box' also provided the undecorated kits for Bev-Bel. And Bev-Bel provided for me many road names that otherwise would not have been available such as L&NE and FEC. There are no `Ready to Roll' cars on my layout (so far)!–John
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12084
						From: CinderCrusher
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Just for the record, there is an almost unknown source for decals.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Go to www.oddballsdecals.org and scroll down to the bottom of their page to see the listing of all the railroads they offer.  Clicking on the individual railroad reporting marks will give you a list of all the decals they offer for that railroad.  It is quite extensive for the central and western parts of our country.  However, you will not find much for the common eastern roads.  I guess Tom Stolte (the owner of Oddballs Decals) feels those are already covered pretty well by others.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
The quality of these decals is excellent, and some of his offerings you will find nowhere else.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12085
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                I have repaired such split gears that way--if the 
gear had a hub.  Make a collar of brass tube to hold the hub 
together.  --  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: 
  tom 
  leen 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:22 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO 
  powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Glenn476,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                The gear is split and so making the collar won't fix the 
        split.  The split causes the gear to not mesh properly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- On Wed, 10/14/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> 
        wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
        

                                                                                                                                                                                                From: 
          Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: 
          Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: 
          Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 11:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                if the gear has a hub, you might make a 
          collar from brass tube that will hold it together.  
          gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: tom leen 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 
            2009 10:55 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] old TYCO 
            powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            

                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                
              
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                
                
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Does anyone know where I can find a new pinion gear that 
                  fits on the motor shaft of an old TYCO powerTrac 
                  locomotive.  My gear is plastic and it split so it does 
                  not stay lined up on the shaft anymore.  I've tried 
                  gluing it to no luck.  As it is split, when it does 
                  run, there is a skip in the drive train when the split in the 
                  gear engages the corresponding gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                                
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                

            

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12086
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I can see your points and would like to remind you that the Milwaukee  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
area is backwards compared to the real, developed world.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
As an example, go to the city of  Milwaukee and you'll soon see that  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
it is almost impossible to buy a computer outside of the few you might  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
locate in a Walmart. Try to find a 2-flute or any other common mill  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
cutter for sale anywhere in the county. look on line to see the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
complex handheld computer that middle school students i Japan and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
South Korea own and can and enthusiastically  completely program, with  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
their own created programs.. Then contrast that to all the people you  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
know that can't even defrag their PC, find and clean it's registry, or  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
even isolate and remove malware that is constantly driving them crazy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
But I return to the recognition that using what works well is just  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
fine for anyone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I''ll suggest you've overlooked that you can make a simple drip shield  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
for your leaking AC unit, if only from a large dollar store cookie  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
sheet, a pair of stout pliers to bend the cookie sheet with, and a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
large bucket to catch the dripping in one controlled spot. or put a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
couple of feet of tipped to one side hardware store gutter on the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
lower lip of the AC to do the same with simple strips of something to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
strap that to the front of it......... and drop that annoying water  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
into that bucket.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I'm expecting to see a lot of kit making instead of RTR's being the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
new focus in  a year or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Best to Ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 On Oct 16, 2009, at 3:53 PM, Stephen Neubaum wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I use EZ track myself, because in my apartment, we do not have  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> climate control, just an 'all or nothing' air conditioner in the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> summer, and it gets very hot in  winter with the heating system.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> So I have had issues with the plywood and cork roadbed. Plus, the AC  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> unit, during the summer, is above the layout's corner, and it leaks  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> badly sometimes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> So, I spent entirely too much time fixing bad or warped track, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> not enough time enjoying operations.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> One of my customers I built a website for, he gave me a rubbermaid  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> continer full of EZ track. I decided to pull up my flextrack and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> such, and replace all my track with EZ track.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Layout works, and I am not concerned about warping anymore!
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> My other thought, is that no one has the time or paitence anymore  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> foe even an Athearn kit. My friend Bob, that runs the hobby shop,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> sent me home with 80 blue box kits that were from his private  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> collection that he wanted to sell. He is having me assemble them,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> and put better trucks on them, and he will sell them as ready to run.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I am paid in railroad supplies for my work, even.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I am 25 years of age, and I find out of the few other modelers that  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I know, that are my age, none of them want to do what I do in this  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> hobby- working in wood and card, hand building everything. Many of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> my structures are card, balsa, and basswood. Their gratification in  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> this hobby is not in building, it is in running. They don't mind  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> paying more for something assembled, they just want to see it run.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> My gratification is in buying on the cheap old wood and card train  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> cars that are looking rather ratty, and restoring them to their  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> former glory of decades ago. It is how I unwind from long days  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> building computers and fixing them for customers. In the evenings, I  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> want to forget 2009 and live like it is 1939, with my 78 RPM records  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> playing while I work on antique trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Still, I agree that it is hard to imagine an Athearn kit being too  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> hard, but times have changed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> A Comet boxcar or reefer cost 35 cents less trucks in the late '30s.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> It came as wood pieces and a set of embossed card overlays. I  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> assembled one start to finish in my spare time and it took a couple  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> days, with adding some nice undeframe wire detail.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Back in the '30s, people looked for inexpensive diversions. A model  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> kit that might take a few days to build, then would provide  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> additional enjoyment as a running train car, was a decent value for  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> the amount it cost per hour of work on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Now we are in 'Great Depression II" a kit would be a good way to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> spend spare time. So it almost baffles me when I see ready to run  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> trains more popular than kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Anyway, my pain meds for my back problem are kicking in, so I can't  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> type much longer. Must get some sleep.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> --- On Fri, 10/16/09, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> From: Sean Naylor .......
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Intimidating for me might be a Arbour Models or Winton kit..  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Certainly not Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I built my first glue/assemble model kit at age 6. It was a mid 50's  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> red corvette. Still rember smashing it for the first time.. about 3  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> days after building it..  What fun!
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Sean 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12087
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Mike,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Yeah I miss the old AMT 3in1 kits too, often when Ertl re-releases one of the older kits, many of the old custom parts are still in the kit though!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Fri, October 16, 2009 7:15:28 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn News Special Announcement

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Do you remember the fairly common 3 in 1 300-parts 1/25th scale 
                                                                                                                                                                                                plastic car kits???

                                                                                                                                                                                                Man those were serious FUN !!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                Best to Ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                                                                                                 On Oct 16, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Sean Naylor wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Intimidating for me might be a Arbour Models or Winton kit.. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Certainly not Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I built my first glue/assemble model kit at age 6. It was a mid 50's 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > red corvette. Still rember smashing it for the first time.. about 3 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > days after building it.. What fun!
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: Gary Woodard
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Hi Brad,
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > The V scale trains, or computer generated stuff is a little 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > different, and is the new wave in scratchbuilding, (ever try to work 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > a graphics program for content creation?), so it isn't all that easy 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > on the virtual railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I grew up with Athearn and MDC kits, and enjoyed
 them over the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > years, and I will miss them, my local dealer does have a supply of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > these kits, some of them dating back to the 70's, 80's and even upto 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > some of the more recent production, what I find hard to believe is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > that there are actually people out there who are incapable of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > building an Athearn kit!
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > From: "corlissbs@aol. com"
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Mike, even if you could cast clones of Athearn cars, Walthers and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Champ have discontinued decal production. You are stuck with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Microscale and a limited selection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > My hobby shop people tell me that almost nobody wants to build 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > anything anymore and customers ask them to assemble the kits for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > them. Perhaps they lack the skills to build. Perhaps the time? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Perhaps they were never offered any shop courses in school. Perhaps 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > they spent their youth in front of a
 computer playing games. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Athearn kits were the norm when I grew up. I guess that Varney, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Gilbert, Revell and Mantua offered RTR HO locos and cars. I had a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Gilbert 0-6-0 and a Mantua F9. The rest were Athearn kits. As I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > said, it is really a sad day......... ...

                                                                                                                                                                                                

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12088
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                Sean, I bet not as much fun as putting firecrackers in old Athearn 
boxcars!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12089
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                When your first train was a Strombecker and you had to assemble each wood 
and paper car, you learned fast.  I still have one Strombecker car sitting 
on a beam in the basement. Not the original trucks, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12090
						From: tom leen
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: old TYCO powerTrac loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Glen,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Oh, thank you, I didn't think of that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- On Sat, 10/17/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Saturday, October 17, 2009, 12:17 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I have repaired such split gears that way--if the gear had a hub.  Make a collar of brass tube to hold the hub together.  --  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                From: tom leen 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:22 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Glenn476,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The gear is split and so making the collar won't fix the split.  The split causes the gear to not mesh properly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- On Wed, 10/14/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 11:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                if the gear has a hub, you might make a collar from brass tube that will hold it together.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                From: tom leen 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:55 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] old TYCO powerTrac loco
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Does anyone know where I can find a new pinion gear that fits on the motor shaft of an old TYCO powerTrac locomotive.  My gear is plastic and it split so it does not stay lined up on the shaft anymore.  I've tried gluing it to no luck.  As it is split, when it does run, there is a skip in the drive train when the split in the gear engages the corresponding gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                



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                                                                                                                                                                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12091
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Mike:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I frequent Greenfield News and Hobbies at least 2 times per week.  Bob 
always has something on order for me.  The last was a compound air pump for 
a B&M 0-6-0 loco bash that I just finished.  just got a tender for my 
next B&M loco bash.  Jay is the one who told me that the kits are not 
selling.  Few people want to build, for whatever the reason is.  If 
you notice, GN&H has few blue box kits compared to what they used to 
have.  Most cars are ready to run.  He does run basic plastic model 
building classes for kids to learn.  Someone has to teach them, especially 
if the parents can't.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I have the railroad lettering fonts and have made my own decals on the 
printer to do a New Haven loco for which decals are not available.  The 
loco came out very nice.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The same is true in the RC hobby.  I also fly RC helicopters and most 
"pilots" want a ready to fly helicopter, instead of building and setting it 
up.  That is why GN&H does such a business of repairing crashed 
birds.  If you didn't build it, you don't know how to rebuild it.  
Yes, the old guys still build planes with balsa and paper or cloth, but the 
newbies want it ready totake out of the box and fly or crash.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12092
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary, I was thinking more of a computer layout operating program such as 
Train Player and Track Layer, where you can build, scenic and operate the 
railroad, with an array of cars and locomotives.  Is it fun?  
Yes.  Am I disappointed with Athearn?  Yes.  Am I 
surprosed?  No.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12093
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Decals   was Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I second that.  Oddball is tops.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "CinderCrusher" <defoe242@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Just for the record, there is an almost unknown source for decals.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Go to www.oddballsdecals.org and scroll down to the bottom of their page to see the listing of all the railroads they offer.  Clicking on the individual railroad reporting marks will give you a list of all the decals they offer for that railroad.  It is quite extensive for the central and western parts of our country.  However, you will not find much for the common eastern roads.  I guess Tom Stolte (the owner of Oddballs Decals) feels those are already covered pretty well by others.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The quality of these decals is excellent, and some of his offerings you will find nowhere else.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12094
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Brad,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Both Trainz RR Simulator and Microsoft Train Simulator also allow for building routes, both prototype and fantasy, yes it is fun, I do enjoy my Trainz, as you have probably seen some of my videos, right now I'm still in the process of recreating the D&S from Durango to Silverton, in my computer, I can do all 45 miles, I've also cloned my original route, removed many baseboards and winterized the Highline portion for doing a series of winter vids, as in this one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Pulled by K27 No. 459, this mixed train is running from Durango to Silverton in December of 1957, the month and year of my birth anyway!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: "corlissbs@..." <corlissbs@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Fri, October 16, 2009 8:56:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn News Special Announcement

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary, I was thinking more of a computer layout operating program such as Train Player and Track Layer, where you can build, scenic and operate the railroad, with an array of cars and locomotives.  Is it fun?  Yes.  Am I disappointed with Athearn?  Yes.  Am I surprosed?  No.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith

                                                                                                                                                                                                

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12095
						From: George Frey
						Date: 10/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn 'Blue Box' kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                i guess im pretty lucky i have found several athearn "blue box kits" on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                e-bay and also on bonzale as a mater of fact here are two referances
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: wildwoodjct <johnbarth@verizon..net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Fri, October 16, 2009 5:00:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn 'Blue Box' kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I have to contribute my feelings about the end of the `Blue Box' kits from Athearn. This I did anticipate just like the demise of Kodachrome also this year. The `Blue Box' kits for me are now vintage. I think that many of us enjoyed assembling them just like the MDC and Train-Miniature kits. However, I am hoping that the `Blue Box' kits will be available at some of the train meets at least for the next few years. What are your expectations about availability at train meets? Athearn `Blue Box' also provided the undecorated kits for Bev-Bel. And Bev-Bel provided for me many road names that otherwise would not have been available such as L&NE and FEC. There are no `Ready to Roll' cars on my layout (so far)!–John 


                                                                                                                                                                                                

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12096
						From: Mr Larry Doub
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn 'Blue Box' kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I have to contribute my feelings about the end of the `Blue Box' kits from Athearn. This I did anticipate just like the demise of Kodachrome also this year. The `Blue Box' kits for me are now vintage. I think that many of us enjoyed assembling them just like the MDC and Train-Miniature kits. However,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                 I am hoping that the `Blue Box' kits will be available at some of the  train meets at least for the next few years. What are your expectations about availability at train meets? Athearn `Blue Box' also provided the undecorated kits for Bev-Bel. And Bev-Bel provided for me many road names that otherwise would not have been available such as L&NE and FEC. There are no `Ready to Roll' cars on my layout (so far)!–John
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 >
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Without trying to make this to long,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 for me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I have mixed feelings about the end of the Blue box Kits,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
For one, I have a ton of of them, both engines and cars,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I'm sure over 130+ engines, and who knows in cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
But since the end of these "afordable kits" and the RTR stuff came
                                                                                                                                                                                                
along,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
(not being to any shows for some years thought) I'm sure this stuff will be at meets for a long time to come, but the bad thing is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
the Blue box kit prices in EvilBay have rocketed into redickulas ranges, and what will this do to the show prices later when they get harder to find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I know some Hobby shops still carry blue box kits, and was also told 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
they are still making some of this stuff, but I don't know that for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
But then you have to look at the future of where layouts are going as well, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
with all the DCC and Sound out there in Equiped, plugged, or RTR that people prefer over the older Blue Box stuff without it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
For me, I'm stuck on a hump here, do I really still want to go forword more with a digitrax DCC when I get the chance to build another layout, or just stick to DC/Light DCC,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
DCC and Sound would be awsome, but then I'm what seems sitting on half the worlds Blue box kit, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
so then do you sell and buy RTR stuff, or sit on it and take al that time and Decoder the stuff you want to run.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
But either way each of us desided on the Blue Box Kits, somebody told me awhile back, RTR isn't all that bad, they would rather run trains then use all thy're time building them, and that made me think about it some.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Although I don't have any RTR stuff "outside of a few IHC or other Steam engines, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I'm sure their will be a market for these none Ready to Run kits for a long time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Look at alot of the old Vintage stuff, Tyco/Mantua, is still TONS of this around today.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
One last thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I was thinking, with buying Blue box kits, then having to buy the couplers, trucks, metal wheels, and building them, the codt difference isn't really that bad to keep you away from the RTR stuff and save alot of bench time, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Unless like John mentioned, they don't have the kits you want in RTR.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12097
						From: Mr Larry Doub
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Sorry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 I didn't see this post before I posted on the last thread.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I'm sure their is a bazillion of them out there yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Wish I would have knew this  was coming,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
One hobby shop I visit has a shelf full of Blue Box kits ranging from 5-6 bucks each.. even though I have half a bazillion of ea already it seems, I always bought at least 2-4 kits of the roads I model when I'm there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
But I do see and agree, rattle kits will be back,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
People are starting to get tight with money, buisness in the bar has slowed up, and it's only time and prices that will kill the RTR lines as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Davneport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Well, I expect blue box kits to be available for a very, very long time on ebay.  I figure there are about a bazillion of them sitting on people's shelves.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Many model railroaders have always derided the "shake the box" kits.  Now they will be missed.  Curious.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Perhaps when the off shore assembly cost starts to rise, the "Ready to Roll" line will be offered in a not so ready to roll form.  And the circle of shake the box kits will continue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Chuck K.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   From: the_plainsman 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 5:58 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     Hi Gary W., Thanks for the info. I bet many, especially those outside our group, did not know they still made them! W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > Having trouble viewing this email? Click here. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > October 16, 2009 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > Greetings,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > Effective immediately, we here at Athearn have made the difficult decision to discontinue the production of our Blue Box line of kits.  There were several factors that contributed to this extremely challenging decision however, the primary issue revolved around affordability and ensuring that our Blue Box kit pricing remain aligned with what the market can bear.  Unfortunately,  due to increased manufacturing and labor costs it has been determined that we are no longer able to continue offering kits at competitive price points as compared to our already assembled products.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > For over 50 years the Athearn Blue Box kits have been sold worldwide, bringing happiness, joy and excitement to thousands of model railroad enthusiasts. Your passion for these products has allowed us to thrive and grow into the industry leader you still support today, and for that we are eternally grateful. Moving forward this will allow us to dedicate more resources to new and exciting projects in our Ready To Roll, Genesis and Roundhouse lines for another 50 years, or more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > We will continue to support all service and warranty needs on Blue Box kits from our headquarters in Long Beach, California. You can find our contact information here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > The Folks at Athearn To Unsubscribe
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > To unsubscribe send a blank email to the email administrator.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > To Change Your Email Address
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > Send a blank email to the email administrator from your old email address and then send a blank email from your new email address to subscribe.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > Please be sure to respond to the confirmation email to confirm your subscription.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12098
						From: Jim Waterman
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                I'd like to see your Potlatcher when you finish it. 
Sounds like a great project. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Which ink jet printer do you use to make your 
decals and where do you get the paper? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12099
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn 'Blue Box' kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Is it possible that if the right person comes along with the right amount of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
cash, they might just sell the whole "Blue Box" line?  or is it the basis 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
for the RTR line.  I haven't kept up on Athearn that well in recent years. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I have bought BB cars mainly when I needed a substrate for special decals. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: "Mr Larry Doub" <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 12:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 'Blue Box' kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I have to contribute my feelings about the end of the `Blue Box' kits from 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Athearn. This I did anticipate just like the demise of Kodachrome also 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> this year. The `Blue Box' kits for me are now vintage. I think that many 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> of us enjoyed assembling them just like the MDC and Train-Miniature kits. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> However,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 I am hoping that the `Blue Box' kits will be available at some of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
train meets at least for the next few years. What are your expectations 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
about availability at train meets? Athearn `Blue Box' also provided the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
undecorated kits for Bev-Bel. And Bev-Bel provided for me many road names 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
that otherwise would not have been available such as L&NE and FEC. There are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
no `Ready to Roll' cars on my layout (so far)!-John
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Without trying to make this to long,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 for me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I have mixed feelings about the end of the Blue box Kits,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
For one, I have a ton of of them, both engines and cars,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I'm sure over 130+ engines, and who knows in cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
But since the end of these "afordable kits" and the RTR stuff came
                                                                                                                                                                                                
along,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
(not being to any shows for some years thought) I'm sure this stuff will be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
at meets for a long time to come, but the bad thing is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
the Blue box kit prices in EvilBay have rocketed into redickulas ranges, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
what will this do to the show prices later when they get harder to find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I know some Hobby shops still carry blue box kits, and was also told
                                                                                                                                                                                                
they are still making some of this stuff, but I don't know that for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
But then you have to look at the future of where layouts are going as well,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
with all the DCC and Sound out there in Equiped, plugged, or RTR that people 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
prefer over the older Blue Box stuff without it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
For me, I'm stuck on a hump here, do I really still want to go forword more 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
with a digitrax DCC when I get the chance to build another layout, or just 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
stick to DC/Light DCC,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
DCC and Sound would be awsome, but then I'm what seems sitting on half the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
worlds Blue box kit,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
so then do you sell and buy RTR stuff, or sit on it and take al that time 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
and Decoder the stuff you want to run.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
But either way each of us desided on the Blue Box Kits, somebody told me 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
awhile back, RTR isn't all that bad, they would rather run trains then use 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
all thy're time building them, and that made me think about it some.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Although I don't have any RTR stuff "outside of a few IHC or other Steam 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
engines,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I'm sure their will be a market for these none Ready to Run kits for a long 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Look at alot of the old Vintage stuff, Tyco/Mantua, is still TONS of this 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
around today.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
One last thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I was thinking, with buying Blue box kits, then having to buy the couplers, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
trucks, metal wheels, and building them, the codt difference isn't really 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
that bad to keep you away from the RTR stuff and save alot of bench time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Unless like John mentioned, they don't have the kits you want in RTR.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12100
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn 'Blue Box' kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi gj, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                It is the basis of the rtr line, same with the MDC/Roundhouse stuff as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sat, October 17, 2009 12:02:54 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 'Blue Box' kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Is it possible that if the right person comes along with the right amount of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                cash, they might just sell the whole "Blue Box" line? or is it the basis 
                                                                                                                                                                                                for the RTR line. I haven't kept up on Athearn that well in recent years. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                I have bought BB cars mainly when I needed a substrate for special decals. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                 ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: "Mr Larry Doub" <larry_l_doub@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 12:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 'Blue Box' kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "wildwoodjct"
 <johnbarth@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I have to contribute my feelings about the end of the `Blue Box' kits from 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Athearn. This I did anticipate just like the demise of Kodachrome also 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > this year. The `Blue Box' kits for me are now vintage. I think that many 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > of us enjoyed assembling them just like the MDC and Train-Miniature kits. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > However,
                                                                                                                                                                                                I am hoping that the `Blue Box' kits will be available at some of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                train meets at least for the next few years. What are your expectations 
                                                                                                                                                                                                about availability at train meets? Athearn `Blue Box' also provided the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                undecorated kits for Bev-Bel. And Bev-Bel provided for me many road names 
                                                                                                                                                                                                that otherwise would not have been available such as L&NE and FEC. There are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                no `Ready to Roll' cars on my layout (so far)!-John
                                                                                                                                                                                                >

                                                                                                                                                                                                Without trying to make this to long,
                                                                                                                                                                                                for me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                I have mixed feelings about the end of the Blue box Kits,
                                                                                                                                                                                                For one, I
 have a ton of of them, both engines and cars,
                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm sure over 130+ engines, and who knows in cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                But since the end of these "afordable kits" and the RTR stuff came
                                                                                                                                                                                                along,
                                                                                                                                                                                                (not being to any shows for some years thought) I'm sure this stuff will be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                at meets for a long time to come, but the bad thing is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                the Blue box kit prices in EvilBay have rocketed into redickulas ranges, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                what will this do to the show prices later when they get harder to find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                I know some Hobby shops still carry blue box kits, and was also told
                                                                                                                                                                                                they are still making some of this stuff, but I don't know that for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                But then you have to look at the future of where layouts are going as well,
                                                                                                                                                                                                with all the DCC and Sound out there in Equiped, plugged, or RTR that people 
                                                                                                                                                                                                prefer over the older Blue Box stuff without it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                For me, I'm stuck on a hump here, do I really still want to go forword more 
                                                                                                                                                                                                with a digitrax DCC when I get the chance to
 build another layout, or just 
                                                                                                                                                                                                stick to DC/Light DCC,
                                                                                                                                                                                                DCC and Sound would be awsome, but then I'm what seems sitting on half the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                worlds Blue box kit,
                                                                                                                                                                                                so then do you sell and buy RTR stuff, or sit on it and take al that time 
                                                                                                                                                                                                and Decoder the stuff you want to run.

                                                                                                                                                                                                But either way each of us desided on the Blue Box Kits, somebody told me 
                                                                                                                                                                                                awhile back, RTR isn't all that bad, they would rather run trains then use 
                                                                                                                                                                                                all thy're time building them, and that made me think about it some.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Although I don't have any RTR stuff "outside of a few IHC or other Steam 
                                                                                                                                                                                                engines,
                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm sure their will be a market for these none Ready to Run kits for a long 
                                                                                                                                                                                                time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Look at alot of the old Vintage stuff, Tyco/Mantua, is still TONS of this 
                                                                                                                                                                                                around today.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                Davenport Iowa

                                                                                                                                                                                                One last thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                I was thinking, with buying Blue box kits, then having to buy the couplers, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                trucks, metal wheels, and building
 them, the codt difference isn't really 
                                                                                                                                                                                                that bad to keep you away from the RTR stuff and save alot of bench time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                Unless like John mentioned, they don't have the kits you want in RTR.

                                                                                                                                                                                                ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                                                                                                                                                                                Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                                                                                                                                                                ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                                                                                                                                                                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
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                                                                                                                                                                                                18:39:00


                                                                                                                                                                                                

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12101
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn 'Blue Box' kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                so they will still be molding the cars, etc--just 
not offering them as kits.  The way I see it, the only loss would be the 
"Undecorated" line.  (which, as I said, are the main ones I have bought 
over the recent past.  My eyes are getting to be more tuned to O Scale now 
anyhow.  Can't see what I'm building.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 9:08 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 
  'Blue Box' kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi gj, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                It is the basis of the rtr line, same with the MDC/Roundhouse stuff as 
  well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 
  to answer life's two most important questions! 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sat, October 17, 2009 12:02:54 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  Re: Athearn 'Blue Box' kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Is it possible that if the right person comes along with the right amount 
  of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                cash, they might just sell the whole "Blue Box" line? or is it the 
  basis 
                                                                                                                                                                                                for the RTR line. I haven't kept up on Athearn that well in recent 
  years. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                I have bought BB cars mainly when I needed a substrate for special 
  decals. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: "Mr Larry Doub" 
  <larry_l_doub@ 
  yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou 
  ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 12:30 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: 
  [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 'Blue Box' kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "wildwoodjct" <johnbarth@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > I have to 
  contribute my feelings about the end of the `Blue Box' kits from 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > 
  Athearn. This I did anticipate just like the demise of Kodachrome also 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                > this year. The `Blue Box' kits for me are now vintage. I think that 
  many 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > of us enjoyed assembling them just like the MDC and 
  Train-Miniature kits. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                > However,
                                                                                                                                                                                                I am hoping that the `Blue Box' 
  kits will be available at some of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                train meets at least for the next 
  few years. What are your expectations 
                                                                                                                                                                                                about availability at train meets? 
  Athearn `Blue Box' also provided the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                undecorated kits for Bev-Bel. And 
  Bev-Bel provided for me many road names 
                                                                                                                                                                                                that otherwise would not have been 
  available such as L&NE and FEC. There are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                no `Ready to Roll' cars on 
  my layout (so far)!-John
                                                                                                                                                                                                >

                                                                                                                                                                                                Without trying to make this to 
  long,
                                                                                                                                                                                                for me,
                                                                                                                                                                                                I have mixed feelings about the end of the Blue box 
  Kits,
                                                                                                                                                                                                For one, I have a ton of of them, both engines and cars,
                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm sure 
  over 130+ engines, and who knows in cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                But since the end of these 
  "afordable kits" and the RTR stuff came
                                                                                                                                                                                                along,
                                                                                                                                                                                                (not being to any shows 
  for some years thought) I'm sure this stuff will be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                at meets for a long 
  time to come, but the bad thing is,
                                                                                                                                                                                                the Blue box kit prices in EvilBay have 
  rocketed into redickulas ranges, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                what will this do to the show prices 
  later when they get harder to find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                I know some Hobby shops still carry 
  blue box kits, and was also told
                                                                                                                                                                                                they are still making some of this stuff, 
  but I don't know that for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                But then you have to look at the future of 
  where layouts are going as well,
                                                                                                                                                                                                with all the DCC and Sound out there in 
  Equiped, plugged, or RTR that people 
                                                                                                                                                                                                prefer over the older Blue Box stuff 
  without it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                For me, I'm stuck on a hump here, do I really still want to go 
  forword more 
                                                                                                                                                                                                with a digitrax DCC when I get the chance to build another 
  layout, or just 
                                                                                                                                                                                                stick to DC/Light DCC,
                                                                                                                                                                                                DCC and Sound would be awsome, 
  but then I'm what seems sitting on half the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                worlds Blue box kit,
                                                                                                                                                                                                so 
  then do you sell and buy RTR stuff, or sit on it and take al that time 
                                                                                                                                                                                                and 
  Decoder the stuff you want to run.

                                                                                                                                                                                                But either way each of us desided on 
  the Blue Box Kits, somebody told me 
                                                                                                                                                                                                awhile back, RTR isn't all that bad, 
  they would rather run trains then use 
                                                                                                                                                                                                all thy're time building them, and 
  that made me think about it some.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Although I don't have any RTR stuff 
  "outside of a few IHC or other Steam 
                                                                                                                                                                                                engines,
                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm sure their will be a 
  market for these none Ready to Run kits for a long 
                                                                                                                                                                                                time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Look at alot 
  of the old Vintage stuff, Tyco/Mantua, is still TONS of this 
                                                                                                                                                                                                around 
  today.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                Davenport Iowa

                                                                                                                                                                                                One last thing,
                                                                                                                                                                                                I was 
  thinking, with buying Blue box kits, then having to buy the couplers, 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                trucks, metal wheels, and building them, the codt difference isn't really 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                that bad to keep you away from the RTR stuff and save alot of bench 
  time,
                                                                                                                                                                                                Unless like John mentioned, they don't have the kits you want in 
  RTR.

                                                                                                                                                                                                ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                                                                                                                                                                                Yahoo! Groups 
  Links

                                                                                                                                                                                                ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- 
  -

                                                                                                                                                                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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  Virus Database: 270.14.20/2441 - Release Date: 10/16/09 
  
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                                                                                                                                                                                                Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
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  Date: 10/17/09 13:08:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12102
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                You are probably right. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent from my iPhone

                                                                                                                                                                                                 On Oct 16, 2009, at 8:31 PM, corlissbs@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                



 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                Sean, I bet not as much fun as putting firecrackers in old Athearn 
boxcars!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
	
	
	



                                                                                                                                                                                                



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12103
						From: Mr Larry Doub
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sean, I bet not as much fun as putting firecrackers in old Athearn boxcars!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Oh lord no, that is what Lifelike and Botchman stuff is for.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12104
						From: still just  frank
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: train show East Rutherford New Jersey Oct. 24, 2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                New York Society of Model Engineers annual scale only swap meet. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Saturday, October, 24, 2009 9:00 AM to 3:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
St Joseph's School auditorium. behind the church rectory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
120 Hoboken Road, East Rutherford, New Jersey 07073.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
See http://www.ModelEngineers.org for more information.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
The oldest train club (1926) is haveing it's annual train show.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12105
						From: ron_tallyho
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Didn't these disappear once before only to be brought back.  Talking to a couple of manufactures I know this is the trend in the model industry.  Today's modern modeler does not want to spend a little quality time and enjoy building a loco or car kit. It's our microwave life style.  You buy an engine or car, take it out of the box, put it on the track and run it.  Ron Plyler
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12106
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


  

 
But the ready to run people will never know the deep satisfaction of
watching something you created from parts or scratch, look right and
run exquisitely...  The cost of perfection is time, cost and effort... 
Then you know the real cost and the deepest of true satisfaction when
it is your creation or recreation and it does it's  job so very well. 
I am a builder...  Sometimes it takes years to get the right look and
function together in a model and a scene.  Nothing is more enjoyable
than watching a miniature machine do a terrific performance with a
train running through a set of trackwork you have built and watching it
do a beautiful performance over and over without defect or derailment...
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                
=====================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
ron_tallyho wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Didn't these disappear once before only to be brought back.
Talking to a couple of manufactures I know this is the trend in the
model industry. Today's modern modeler does not want to spend a little
quality time and enjoy building a loco or car kit. It's our microwave
life style. You buy an engine or car, take it out of the box, put it on
the track and run it. Ron Plyler
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12107
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Ron,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                In todays world, its rtr locos, cars and layouts, while there maybe a few out there who legitimately don't have the time, the clear majority of todays "Modelers", don't have the talent, not because they couldn't learn it, but precisely because they won't learn or aquire the talent and skills, they want to hire someone to do it, it is a reflection of life in general I guess, without getting into the politics or the morals of it, this is the result of decades of school children being dumbed down, morals, (work ethic), being taken out of education, and the breakdown of the family, all these things add together to create a lazy nation who just wants everything handed to them on a silver platter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Those of us who are old enough to remember the many joyous hours spent building a nice structure, or a nice craftsmen type kit, ( I love wood kits too, just can't afford them), its nice to take a new steam engine out of its box, set it on the track and simply turn the power on, (of course todays challenge is programming the decoder!), it automatically runs nice, it looks nice, if your made of money you might even bash that $500 rtr steam engine into something else, (it would also take being a certified nutcase to do that after spending that kind of loot on a plastic steam engine, but then, those who pay that kind of money for a plastic rtr steam engine aren't really too bright anyway!), does taking it out of the box, setting it on the track, putting the power to it, making it run, give the same satisfaction that setting one on the track for the first time after you spent hours building it from a kit or from a
 hodgepodge of parts? Nope!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I love gathering old Mantua, or Bowser parts together, often you can get parts in lots fairly cheaply off of places like ebay, or you can pick up basket cases, (much of what all of us on the Vintage HO list do anyway), mingle these pieces together to make a whole new engine, its fun, it really is, and watching it actually run, and pull a train is far more satisfying in my view than it is to, "just pull it out of the box"!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                In todays world also, I've noticed articles in Model Railroader, (no other magazine would dare to show such a thing), layouts that are made by contractors for a price, yet they call this guy a model railroader! Why? Such a person in my view isn't a model railroader at all, but rather is a checkbook railroader, he writes the check and gets what he wants, but he didn't build it, paint it, detail it or even as much as plug the power supply in, but in MR's distorted view, the guy is a model railroader.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The virtual world does have a lot to offer, there are some very talented young people around the world, (not just here in the US, but in the UK, Australia, and I even know of some in China and in the former Soviet Union), some of these young people aren't just virtual modelers, many of them are also very talented model railroaders who model in a variety of scales, yet some of their greatest talent also shows through some of their virtual creations as well, do I blame the young people, especially in the US who don't want to do any of the work it takes to get some things? No, I blame the adults who should have known better than to teach them that they can have everything handed to them on a silver platter!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: ron_tallyho <ron_tallyho@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sat, October 17, 2009 5:28:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn's Blue Boxes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Didn't these disappear once before only to be brought back. Talking to a couple of manufactures I know this is the trend in the model industry. Today's modern modeler does not want to spend a little quality time and enjoy building a loco or car kit. It's our microwave life style. You buy an engine or car, take it out of the box, put it on the track and run it. Ron Plyler


                                                                                                                                                                                                

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12108
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Fancy meeting you on this list! I thought you only hung out on the All-Railroaders
                                                                                                                                                                                                
group! LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Dave here.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I agree with your sentiments exactly, and love the new term "checkbook
                                                                                                                                                                                                
railroader" that you have coined. I think it fits, especially  where it now
                                                                                                                                                                                                
generally describes all those "elists" in the "hobby".
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
By the way,  your comments regarding some of what Model Railroader publishes --
                                                                                                                                                                                                
my sentiments exactly, which is why I no longer subscribe to those guys. I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                
MR has become too much of a trade magazine, and too little of a hobby 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
magazine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                
All Railroads
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12109
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                          While I can 
appreciate that RTR serves the needs of many I have to agree with Don 
S. as to the feeling of satisfaction I felt when I built my Winton 
Allegheny or rebuilt my pre war Mantua Consolidation. I'm very lucky to be 
able to do this and then stand back to admire the work I put into them and say I 
did that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 5:46 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn's Blue 
  Boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                But the ready to run people will never know the deep satisfaction of 
  watching something you created from parts or scratch, look right and run 
  exquisitely. ..  The cost of perfection is time, cost and 
  effort...  Then you know the real cost and the deepest of true 
  satisfaction when it is your creation or recreation and it does it's  job 
  so very well.  I am a builder...  Sometimes it takes years to get 
  the right look and function together in a model and a scene.  Nothing is 
  more enjoyable than watching a miniature machine do a terrific performance 
  with a train running through a set of trackwork you have built and watching it 
  do a beautiful performance over and over without defect or 
  derailment.. .

                                                                                                                                                                                                Don Staton in 
  VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =====

                                                                                                                                                                                                ron_tallyho 
  wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                Didn't these disappear once before only to be brought back. Talking to a 
    couple of manufactures I know this is the trend in the model industry. 
    Today's modern modeler does not want to spend a little quality time and 
    enjoy building a loco or car kit. It's our microwave life style. You buy an 
    engine or car, take it out of the box, put it on the track and run it. Ron 
    Plyler

                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12110
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                You suggested this group to me over a year ago! LOL!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm sure that I have highly offended someone with my compelling rhetoric!LOL!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sat, October 17, 2009 6:42:30 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn's Blue Boxes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary:

                                                                                                                                                                                                Fancy meeting you on this list! I thought you only hung out on the All-Railroaders
                                                                                                                                                                                                group! LOL

                                                                                                                                                                                                Dave here.....

                                                                                                                                                                                                I agree with your sentiments exactly, and love the new term "checkbook
                                                                                                                                                                                                railroader" that you have coined. I think it fits, especially  where it now
                                                                                                                                                                                                generally describes all those "elists" in the "hobby".

                                                                                                                                                                                                By the way,  your comments regarding some of what Model Railroader publishes --
                                                                                                                                                                                                my sentiments exactly, which is why I no longer subscribe to those guys. I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                MR has become too much of a trade magazine, and too little of a hobby 
                                                                                                                                                                                                magazine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Regards,

                                                                                                                                                                                                Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                All Railroads

                                                                                                                                                                                                

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12111
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                You make many good points.  I disagree with 
one and that is that wood kits are too expensive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I have always argued that the craftsman type kits 
are less expensive than the plastic shake the box or ready-to-run IF your hobby 
is building things.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                A $10 shake the box kit that takes a half hour to 
assemble means your hobby costs $20 per hour.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                A $40 dollar craftsman kit that takes 16 hours to 
build, paint, letter means your hobby costs you $2.50 per hour.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                An $80 structure kit that takes 40 hours is even 
cheaper.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Now, if the primary goal is to accumulate rolling 
stock on the layout in goodly numbers or just have boxed unbuilt kits on the 
shelf (none of us do that, right) then everything is reversed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 3:13 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn's Blue 
  Boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Ron,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                In todays world, its rtr locos, cars and layouts, while there maybe 
  a few out there who legitimately don't have the time, the clear 
  majority of todays "Modelers", don't have the talent, not because they 
  couldn't learn it, but precisely because they won't learn or aquire 
  the talent and skills, they want to hire someone to do it, it is a 
  reflection of life in general I guess, without getting into the politics 
  or the morals of it, this is the result of decades of school children being 
  dumbed down, morals, (work ethic), being taken out of education, and the 
  breakdown of the family, all these things add together to create a lazy nation 
  who just wants everything handed to them on a silver platter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Those of us who are old enough to remember the many joyous hours spent 
  building a nice structure, or a nice craftsmen type kit, ( I love wood 
  kits too, just can't afford them), its nice to take a new steam engine 
  out of its box, set it on the track and simply turn the power on, (of 
  course todays challenge is programming the decoder!), it automatically runs 
  nice, it looks nice, if your made of money you might even bash that 
  $500 rtr steam engine into something else, (it would also take being a 
  certified nutcase to do that after spending that kind of loot on a plastic 
  steam engine, but then, those who pay that kind of money for a plastic 
  rtr steam engine aren't really too bright anyway!), does taking it out of the 
  box, setting it on the track, putting the power to it, making it run, 
  give the same satisfaction that setting one on the track for the first time 
  after you spent hours building it from a kit or from a hodgepodge of 
  parts? Nope!
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                I love gathering old Mantua, or Bowser parts together, often you can 
  get parts in lots fairly cheaply off of places like ebay, or you can 
  pick up basket cases, (much of what all of us on the Vintage HO list do 
  anyway), mingle these pieces together to make a whole new engine, its fun, it 
  really is, and watching it actually run, and pull a train is far more 
  satisfying in my view than it is to, "just pull it out of the box"!
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                In todays world also, I've noticed articles in Model Railroader, (no 
  other magazine would dare to show such a thing), layouts that are made by 
  contractors for a price, yet they call this guy a model railroader! Why? Such 
  a person in my view isn't a model railroader at all, but rather is a checkbook 
  railroader, he writes the check and gets what he wants, but he didn't build 
  it, paint it, detail it or even as much as plug the power supply in, but in 
  MR's distorted view, the guy is a model railroader.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                The virtual world does have a lot to offer, there are some very talented 
  young people around the world, (not just here in the US, but in the UK, 
  Australia, and I even know of some in China and in the former Soviet 
  Union), some of these young people aren't just virtual modelers, many of them 
  are also very talented model railroaders who model in a variety of scales, yet 
  some of their greatest talent also shows through some of their virtual 
  creations as well, do I blame the young people, especially in the US who don't 
  want to do any of the work it takes to get some things? No, I blame the adults 
  who should have known better than to teach them that they can have everything 
  handed to them on a silver platter!
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Click HERE 
  http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 
  to answer life's two most important questions! 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  From: ron_tallyho 
  <ron_tallyho@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sat, October 17, 2009 5:28:19 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Athearn's Blue Boxes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Didn't these disappear once before only to be brought back. Talking to a 
  couple of manufactures I know this is the trend in the model industry. Today's 
  modern modeler does not want to spend a little quality time and enjoy building 
  a loco or car kit. It's our microwave life style. You buy an engine or car, 
  take it out of the box, put it on the track and run it. Ron 
  Plyler


                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12112
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I most likely recommended this group and others to you, but gray hair
                                                                                                                                                                                                
and old age -- ya fergit sometimes, LOL!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Enjoy....
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12113
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Chuck,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I wasn't refering to craftsmen type kits as being to expensive regarding great hobby time enjoyment, in that respect you definitely get what you pay for, where as with the shake the box kits, you obviously get somewhat less, I still enjoy all aspects of kit building, both the shake the box as well as craftsmen type kits, what I was saying about price was that at this time, craftsmen type kits are not really affordable to me, so scratchbuilding, kitbashing, and scratchbashing, as well as resurrecting a few dinosaurs is what I must do for the time being....:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sat, October 17, 2009 8:07:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn's Blue Boxes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                You make many good points.  I disagree with one and that is that wood kits are too expensive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I have always argued that the craftsman type kits are less expensive than the plastic shake the box or ready-to-run IF your hobby is building things.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                A $10 shake the box kit that takes a half hour to assemble means your hobby costs $20 per hour.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                A $40 dollar craftsman kit that takes 16 hours to build, paint, letter means your hobby costs you $2.50 per hour.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                An $80 structure kit that takes 40 hours is even cheaper.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Now, if the primary goal is to accumulate rolling stock on the layout in goodly numbers or just have boxed unbuilt kits on the shelf (none of us do that, right) then everything is reversed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                



                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 3:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn's Blue Boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Ron,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                In todays world, its rtr locos, cars and layouts, while there maybe a few out there who legitimately don't have the time, the clear majority of todays "Modelers", don't have the talent, not because they couldn't learn it, but precisely because they won't learn or aquire the talent and skills, they want to hire someone to do it, it is a reflection of life in general I guess, without getting into the politics or the morals of it, this is the result of decades of school children being dumbed down, morals, (work ethic), being taken out of education, and the breakdown of the family, all these things add together to create a lazy nation who just wants everything handed to them on a silver platter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Those of us who are old enough to remember the many joyous hours spent building a nice structure, or a nice craftsmen type kit, ( I love wood kits too, just can't afford them), its nice to take a new steam engine out of its box, set it on the track and simply turn the power on, (of course todays challenge is programming the decoder!), it automatically runs nice, it looks nice, if your made of money you might even bash that $500 rtr steam engine into something else, (it would also take being a certified nutcase to do that after spending that kind of loot on a plastic steam engine, but then, those who pay that kind of money for a plastic rtr steam engine aren't really too bright anyway!), does taking it out of the box, setting it on the track, putting the power to it, making it run, give the same satisfaction that setting one on the track for the first time after you spent hours building it from a kit or from a
 hodgepodge of parts? Nope!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I love gathering old Mantua, or Bowser parts together, often you can get parts in lots fairly cheaply off of places like ebay, or you can pick up basket cases, (much of what all of us on the Vintage HO list do anyway), mingle these pieces together to make a whole new engine, its fun, it really is, and watching it actually run, and pull a train is far more satisfying in my view than it is to, "just pull it out of the box"!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                In todays world also, I've noticed articles in Model Railroader, (no other magazine would dare to show such a thing), layouts that are made by contractors for a price, yet they call this guy a model railroader! Why? Such a person in my view isn't a model railroader at all, but rather is a checkbook railroader, he writes the check and gets what he wants, but he didn't build it, paint it, detail it or even as much as plug the power supply in, but in MR's distorted view, the guy is a model railroader.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The virtual world does have a lot to offer, there are some very talented young people around the world, (not just here in the US, but in the UK, Australia, and I even know of some in China and in the former Soviet Union), some of these young people aren't just virtual modelers, many of them are also very talented model railroaders who model in a variety of scales, yet some of their greatest talent also shows through some of their virtual creations as well, do I blame the young people, especially in the US who don't want to do any of the work it takes to get some things? No, I blame the adults who should have known better than to teach them that they can have everything handed to them on a silver platter!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: ron_tallyho <ron_tallyho@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sat, October 17, 2009 5:28:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn's Blue Boxes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Didn't these disappear once before only to be brought back. Talking to a couple of manufactures I know this is the trend in the model industry. Today's modern modeler does not want to spend a little quality time and enjoy building a loco or car kit. It's our microwave life style. You buy an engine or car, take it out of the box, put it on the track and run it. Ron Plyler


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12114
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                                So far I've made typical decal sets with an Alps I bought a while back. About four years ago MR had an article in a summer month, where a modeler made full car-side decals of a contemporary BN caboose that was flooded with graffiti. It did this so that no other paint needed to be used on the rest of the body.

                                                                                                                                                                                                He used and gave advice on dong this with one of the large sheet photo-printers. year or two after that I got one on sale at the local Best Buy, I bought a full-sheet Canon PHOTO inkjet printer after scoping out the costs of the individual ink carts and noting that generic refills were also available. There are even conversion packages to change the self-contained  ink cart's for an external feed, larger capacity ink system, something to try if I continue this sort of printing often.

                                                                                                                                                                                                As I recall of the article's advice, you use laser-ready decal paper. Which is the same as ordinary glossy decal paper. I found with the Alps that any make of decal paper that is NOT made for inkjets works just fine. One  other fine point with doing decal with an inkjet printer is that you reduce the amount of ink applied via the settings, and opt for a set delay before the next one is dropped into the tray.

                                                                                                                                                                                                MicroScale has a nice decal paper, Walthers decal paper also works very well. MicroMark also has a nice decal paper.

                                                                                                                                                                                                There is a big performance difference between the class of Laser/Ordinary decal and made-for-Inkjet paper. There is a special coating used on the inkjet decal papers to allow the ordinary inkjets to print on them successfully. I understand some types of ordinary, but some specialized artists sprays are the same as the decal paper kit folks will sell sell you. The artists spray is much less expensive in larger spray cans. I don't know which ones those are, but the info can be found.

                                                                                                                                                                                                The photo inkjets are designed from waterproof inks and don't require the special water-proofing prep and finish sprays of the ordinary inkjet decals. If you have a regular inkjet that also uses special photo inks, you may have the printer to use with the more 'robust' and reliable laser/ordinary decal papers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                If you can run glossy photopaper in a photo-ink set-up inkjet........... I'd bet that machine can also use the regular glossy decal paper. Another way to test this is to print a full color image on some sheets of -glossy- Laser paper. That will completely fail any sort of quality test with an ordinary inkjet printing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                And as one more option, color laser printers can do this very well. I've seen those as low as $125, with the better ones around $250. I almost bought that $125 one on impulse. But I had my new iPhone with me and punched up tech reviews on it. The resolution wasn't well regarded and it was known to be very slow. I mention this because I started making that sort of check-up in stores as a new habit. It keeps me from buying something that just isn't good enough to take home.


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                On Oct 17, 2009, at 7:38 AM, Jim Waterman wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                                I'd like to see your Potlatcher when you finish it. Sounds like a great project.
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Which ink jet printer do you use to make your decals and where do you get the paper?
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12115
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 10/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn News Special Announcement
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Mike in Milwaukee:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I live in Greenville, SC -- and they are JUST as STUPID here too!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Many of the locals still live in the 1800s. Some still think the Civil War
                                                                                                                                                                                                
is still going on and they fly the Confederate flag......
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
As for model trains.....most folks around here have never seen them
                                                                                                                                                                                                
and haven't got a clue of what they are. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Dave F
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12116
						From: Matthew
						Date: 10/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                You know, this same wording was used in an editorial in 1957 in Model Railroader. But back then they were bashing modelers who built Athearn 'shake the box' (read than Blue Box) kits instead of the craftsman kits like Ambroid and Red Ball.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
So, nothing changes except the technology. The complaint is always the same -- "those darn kids are ruining the hobby with their (fill the blank with Athearn Blue Box kits, Ready-to-Run Athearn kits, DCC, etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I love the hobby because we are so consistent.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "ron_tallyho" <ron_tallyho@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Didn't these disappear once before only to be brought back.  Talking to a couple of manufactures I know this is the trend in the model industry.  Today's modern modeler does not want to spend a little quality time and enjoy building a loco or car kit. It's our microwave life style.  You buy an engine or car, take it out of the box, put it on the track and run it.  Ron Plyler
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12117
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 10/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm still waiting for technology to simply provide 
an interface implanted in my skull with a USB port (or probably better) so that 
I can experience any level of modeling I desire without having to actually do 
anything.  Of course, this could have many other applications.  It's 
really just the next step beyond the drones going through life perpetually 
married to earphones in their heads.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Chuck K.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                From: 
  Matthew 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 10:24 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn's Blue 
  Boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                You know, this same wording was used in an editorial in 1957 in Model 
  Railroader. But back then they were bashing modelers who built Athearn 'shake 
  the box' (read than Blue Box) kits instead of the craftsman kits like Ambroid 
  and Red Ball.

                                                                                                                                                                                                So, nothing changes except the technology. The complaint 
  is always the same -- "those darn kids are ruining the hobby with their (fill 
  the blank with Athearn Blue Box kits, Ready-to-Run Athearn kits, DCC, 
  etc.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                I love the hobby because we are so 
  consistent.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Matt

                                                                                                                                                                                                --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "ron_tallyho" <ron_tallyho@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                >
                                                                                                                                                                                                > Didn't these 
  disappear once before only to be brought back. Talking to a couple of 
  manufactures I know this is the trend in the model industry. Today's modern 
  modeler does not want to spend a little quality time and enjoy building a loco 
  or car kit. It's our microwave life style. You buy an engine or car, take it 
  out of the box, put it on the track and run it. Ron 
  Plyler
                                                                                                                                                                                                >

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12118
						From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com
						Date: 10/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Penn Line drives
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                 Does anybody have any extra Penn Line drive units laying 
around for sale??? I need to find several to complete engines.....Thanx in 
advance!!!!Bill
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12119
						From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
						Date: 10/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO 
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                                                
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
group.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
  File        : /V list Binkely Lanconia RevA.doc 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  Description : History of Binkley and Laconia by Ray Wetzel 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20list%20Binkely%20Lanconia%20RevA.doc 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/general.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12120
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 10/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Binkley Lancoina history
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


 
 




 


                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hello Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                I have uploaded that combined file of the history.  Please
review and let me know if I removed all the correct notes.  I still have the
full one saved with the blue notes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 


                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12121
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Binkley Lancoina history
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Chuck,  Yes, I noticed you filed the Binkley - Laconia stuff, many thanks for all your help.  I can't review it though, as a glitch in my PC is not allowing me to get up on my Yahoo Groups.  Any posting I'm doing on the Group is directly via emails.  They don't even include the last message that I'm replying to, but at least the Subject line allows a reader continuation of a thread when I also make reference to it in an opening line.  This is the only way I now have to participate in the Groups, but luckily I'm still able to stay within the circle of things.  My PC is just steadily getting worse and will need to be replaced soon if I want to fully participate again, but for now I'm just chugging along.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12122
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 10/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Binkley Lancoina history
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                If I may,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
It sounds like you might have one of those 'polluted' computers that  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
has gathered a bunch of  software errors over time. Depending upon  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
your level of comfort with moving major parts of a computer around,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
those usually get cured by replacing the hard drive, reloading the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
computer first with the computer [motherboard] drivers and then with  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Windows. Finally reloading your programs and moving over the old data  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
from the original drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
It can be a bunch of hours to reinstall your software and move over  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
your data files. But it's only a matter of minutes to swap in a new  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
hard drive and start loading the restored computer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
If the make of your computer will send you a prep disk to set-up your  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
new drive, that's a fast operation of letting the cd load in the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
basic system drivers, then you load in the makers restore cd [that  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
may be sitting on your present hard drive in a separate partition  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
waiting for you to burn a restore cd].
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Bottom line is that for the price of a decent hard drive, about $50- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
$70, and your time, you can have your computer back into like-new and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
trouble-free condition. Most computers have two hard drive bays with  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
one empty. There its a matter of installing the new drive in the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
empty bay and telling the hardware to use the new drive to start the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
computer, then use the old drive as the overflow/second drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
After that, you get a good system maintenance software package and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
using that every other week keeps the system running like new. [I  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
like system suite or fix-it-utilities, same core program but SS comes  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
with anti-virus and anti-spyware about $50-$30]
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 On Oct 18, 2009, at 11:58 PM, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Hi Chuck,  Yes, I noticed you filed the Binkley - Laconia stuff,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> many thanks for all your help.  I can't review it though, as a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> glitch in my PC is not allowing me to get up on my Yahoo Groups.   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Any posting I'm doing on the Group is directly via emails.  They  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> don't even include the last message that I'm replying to, but at  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> least the Subject line allows a reader continuation of a thread  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> when I also make reference to it in an opening line.  This is the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> only way I now have to participate in the Groups, but luckily I'm  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> still able to stay within the circle of things.  My PC is just  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> steadily getting worse and will need to be replaced soon if I want  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> to fully participate again, but for now I'm just chugging along.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12123
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 10/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: PC Fix, was -- Binkley Lanconia history
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Mike,  Yes, I'm sure this problem is due to software errors.  My level of comfort in working on the innards of a PC is "0".  I've never been inside of a PC, except to install an additional UBS Port to the motherboard, and I don't know the first thing about how to go about installing a hard drive.  It's good to know that a new one can be installed along side the old one though, for transferring stuff.  I don't have any files to worry about though.  I just need to save my address book and the web addresses of the My Favorites group sites when it comes down to it.  As this PC is ancient (and slow because of its limited memory), it's going to need replacement anyway and I'd like to do that before XP is discontinued completely.  I don't want Vista, and I understand Windows 7 is even giving problems since it's still new yet.  Many thanks in helping out here -- I'll certainly look into System Suite since it seems well worth it.  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12124
						From: Mr Larry Doub
						Date: 10/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                You know some of us might have a brighter look on this ending of the Blue Box Kits,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
even though I have no layout to run on, or ever started or a place to start one,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I still buy any and buy, and over the last what, 8 years, I've bought so darn stuff I didn't need but had to have "ya'll know what I mean I'm sure"
                                                                                                                                                                                                
But, I have bought allot of already built BB kits, not only Atherns but MDC and so on, But what I'm in the prosses of doing, is changing everything to sprung trucks, metal wheels, kadee couples, and even adding some extra detail here and there, hoses, steps, grabs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
So I'm sure for some of us like myself, it's not going to be a bad thing as we still have a ton of unbuilt or ugrade ready stuff around.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
The downfall I see with it, the prices of RTR for he new hoobyist coming up,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I know everything has a just cause, but come on, 18.00 for a RTR car?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I hate paying more then that for a Blue Box locomotive let alone "A" car.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
On another note, Ebay is thriving in Scale train sales, it's unreal what people are paying in there for the older stuff over the RTR or even better stuff,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Like an Athearn Blue Box UP GP7, in the box as new, someone dropped 105 bucks on this thing..noting special, straight BB loco,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
heck I would sold um three GP7 for that and paid the shipping, lol..
                                                                                                                                                                                                
But anyways,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
and I know this is going to hurt saying it, but between Ebay, RTR products, and train shows in this age, the Hobby shops are taking a bid hit, I know I always try to visit and spend some in the mom and pop shops when I'm close enough to stop at one, but then I'm buying stuff I really don't need or already have a ton of, unless it's paint or decales, or even parts or detailing parts if they have them on hand, and detail parts at some shops are harder to find all the time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
if my truck didn't need to go int he shop, I'd be going to Burlington to the Hobby Shop and clear out his rattle box kits he has left.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Just my thoughts..
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12125
						From: Matthew
						Date: 10/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Chuck,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
That will probably be along in about 10 years. But seriously, when you look at the changes in modeling technolgy in the past 30 years, it is stunning but not everything changes. The fact that an Athearn car from the 1950s still looks pretty good today, good enough that we have been buying them right up till now, says something about the necessary limits of modeling. There is a level of "good enough" that works for a lot of us.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I'm still waiting for technology to simply provide an interface implanted in my skull with a USB port (or probably better) so that I can experience any level of modeling I desire without having to actually do anything.  Of course, this could have many other applications.  It's really just the next step beyond the drones going through life perpetually married to earphones in their heads.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Chuck K.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   From: Matthew 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 10:24 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     You know, this same wording was used in an editorial in 1957 in Model Railroader. But back then they were bashing modelers who built Athearn 'shake the box' (read than Blue Box) kits instead of the craftsman kits like Ambroid and Red Ball.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   So, nothing changes except the technology. The complaint is always the same -- "those darn kids are ruining the hobby with their (fill the blank with Athearn Blue Box kits, Ready-to-Run Athearn kits, DCC, etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   I love the hobby because we are so consistent.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "ron_tallyho" <ron_tallyho@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   > Didn't these disappear once before only to be brought back. Talking to a couple of manufactures I know this is the trend in the model industry. Today's modern modeler does not want to spend a little quality time and enjoy building a loco or car kit. It's our microwave life style. You buy an engine or car, take it out of the box, put it on the track and run it. Ron Plyler
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12126
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 10/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                I visited my local, very large hobby shop yesterday and counted the Athearn 
blue boxes.  Only 20, but about 100 Athearn built-up cars.  Sure, they 
had some Accurail cars, but try to get a tank car-single dome or three 
dome.  Try to get a 40' or 50' flat car.  Try to get any of the cars 
that Athearn made at a reasonable price.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Who this will hurt is the kid in Montana who doesn't have a train show 
close by.  Athearn has removed the low price option for great 
locomotives and cars.  This is something that Walthers wanted to happen 
years ago so they could raise their prices.  Athearn was keeping 
the prices down.  I remember a Walthers manager telling me this in the 
80's or early 90's, back when Irv was still alive.  I guess we are just 
behind the times.  I remember buying an Athearn flat car at the hobby shop 
for 99 cents, list price.  The same flat car that is being discontinued 
now.  It was a great car back then and it is still a great car. (In my 
opinion.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12127
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 10/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                



 
 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                I agree--the younger modeler is being priced out of the hobby. The kid in 
Montana with no shop or show near him?  I was the kid in the Bay Area who 
would spend a couple of hours after school or on a Saturday for enough to buy an 
Athearn car kit--or perhaps a Kurtz Kraft or Ambroid car for an enjoyable 
project.  These guys are the future of the hobby, yet they are being priced 
out of it.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 8:02 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn's 
  Blue Boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                I visited my local, very large hobby shop yesterday and counted the 
  Athearn blue boxes.  Only 20, but about 100 Athearn built-up cars.  
  Sure, they had some Accurail cars, but try to get a tank car-single dome or 
  three dome.  Try to get a 40' or 50' flat car.  Try to get any of 
  the cars that Athearn made at a reasonable price.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Who this will hurt is the kid in Montana who doesn't have a train show 
  close by.  Athearn has removed the low price option for great 
  locomotives and cars.  This is something that Walthers wanted to happen 
  years ago so they could raise their prices.  Athearn was keeping 
  the prices down.  I remember a Walthers manager telling me this in 
  the 80's or early 90's, back when Irv was still alive.  I guess we are 
  just behind the times.  I remember buying an Athearn flat car at the 
  hobby shop for 99 cents, list price.  The same flat car that is being 
  discontinued now.  It was a great car back then and it is still a great 
  car. (In my opinion.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

  

                                                                                                                                                                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Checked by AVG - 
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  Date: 10/19/09 14:33:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12128
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 10/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                corlissbs@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 > I visited my local, very large hobby shop yesterday and counted the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Athearn blue boxes.  Only 20, but about 100 Athearn built-up cars.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Sure, they had some Accurail cars, but try to get a tank car-single dome 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> or three dome.  Try to get a 40' or 50' flat car.  Try to get any of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> cars that Athearn made at a reasonable price. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Therein lies one of the great problems. Athearn did make a broad 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
selection of rolling stock types. Though Accurail and Branchline have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
kits at much lower prices than the RTR stuff, Branchline only offer 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
boxcars in its Yardmaster series, and Accurail only offers a few types 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
of rolling stock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 > Who this will hurt is the kid in Montana who doesn't have a train show 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> close by.  Athearn has removed the low price option for great 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> locomotives and cars.  This is something that Walthers wanted to happen 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> years ago so they could raise their prices.  Athearn was keeping 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> the prices down.  I remember a Walthers manager telling me this in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 80's or early 90's, back when Irv was still alive.  I guess we are just 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> behind the times.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    As I mentioned previously, perhaps this opens the door for a new 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
player to enter the market, to fill this void.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Growing old is mandatory. Growing up is optional.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12129
						From: Mr Larry Doub
						Date: 10/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I agree, Athearn Kits are good kits,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
even the  vintage stuff, metal, brass and wood
                                                                                                                                                                                                
kits were are still are good stuff, they run just fine with anything I have ont he track today, but, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 I'm glad I went nuts buying stuff when I had the good chance to over the last ten years,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 because stuff at todays prices would kill me trying to buy things now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
I was very happy (still am) to buy a 5.00 kits and take ten or 20 minutes to build it and set it up,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
and I'm sure the Lionel motto of Dad and Son coming together to build and play with trains is going to die fast at the rate this cut throat world called Buisness is doing to everything.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I don't feel it will kill the hobby, but I'm sure it's going to start showing more of a slow down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Larry Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, corlissbs@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I visited my local, very large hobby shop yesterday and counted the Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  blue boxes.  Only 20, but about 100 Athearn built-up cars.  Sure, they  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> had some Accurail cars, but try to get a tank car-single dome or three  dome.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Try to get a 40' or 50' flat car.  Try to get any of the cars  that Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> made at a reasonable price.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Who this will hurt is the kid in Montana who doesn't have a train show  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> close by.  Athearn has removed the low price option for great  locomotives and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> cars.  This is something that Walthers wanted to happen  years ago so they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> could raise their prices.  Athearn was keeping  the prices down.  I remember 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> a Walthers manager telling me this in the  80's or early 90's, back when Irv 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> was still alive.  I guess we are just  behind the times.  I remember buying 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> an Athearn flat car at the hobby shop  for 99 cents, list price.  The same 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> flat car that is being discontinued  now.  It was a great car back then and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> it is still a great car. (In my  opinion.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12130
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 10/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Athearn's Blue Boxes.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                <I was the kid in the Bay Area who would spend a couple of hours after 
school or on a Saturday for enough to buy an Athearn car kit>
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                I remember shoveling snow to earn the money for an Athearn box car.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12131
						From: Earl Poulsen
						Date: 10/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Athearn`s Blue Boxes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I had to mow lawns so I could buy Athearn kits from the local hardware store.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Earl Poulsen
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Vancouver, WA
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
LAT 45 degrees, 40 minutes, 6 seconds X LONG Minus 122 degrees, 39 minutes and 46 seconds
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12132
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 10/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: my blog
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I have a couple of kits posted on my blog that I do not know the manufacturer of them.  Please take a look and let me know if you can identify them.  They will probably be easy for you guys, but I did not get in to the hobby until the mid-1980's, so they pre-date my entry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
If you would like to follow my blog, just push the follow button on the blog page, then you will be notified when I put up a new blog.  One of these days I am going to have to start a layour.  I have hundred of cars and no place to run them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12133
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 10/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: my blog
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                The Burlington reefer looks like a Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
From: <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 7:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Subject: [vintageHO] my blog
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
>I have a couple of kits posted on my blog that I do not know the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>manufacturer of them.  Please take a look and let me know if you can 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>identify them.  They will probably be easy for you guys, but I did not get 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>in to the hobby until the mid-1980's, so they pre-date my entry.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> If you would like to follow my blog, just push the follow button on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> blog page, then you will be notified when I put up a new blog.  One of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> these days I am going to have to start a layour.  I have hundred of cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> and no place to run them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12134
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 10/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Penn Line drives
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Bill, Finally looked last night, nothing but a few well worn parts and not enough to assemble one complete geared truck.  I was in the same spot as you and ended up purchasing a reasonably priced complete unit for well under $10 at a show, switching shells with mine that I wanted to power.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, SFLYERCRAZY@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Does anybody have any extra Penn Line drive units laying  around for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> sale??? I need to find several to complete engines.....Thanx in  advance!!!!Bill
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12135
						From: SFLYERCRAZY@aol.com
						Date: 10/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Penn Line drives
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi W Jay W
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 Ive been doing the same thing, now I have more Pennsy shells 
then I will ever use. Thanx for the 
reply...Bill
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12136
						From: CinderCrusher
						Date: 10/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: my blog
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I agree with you, Don.  The reefer is a Varney.  Also the B&O Timesaver car.  That is also a Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> The Burlington reefer looks like a Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Don Dellmann 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12137
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: oddity to me ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
While there is so much out there that I have never heard of or seen I think this 
really is kind of neat and odd. If you go to Ebay item    
150381618677      Vintage made in Japan Toy Train 
Engine HO  (made from tin / metal ??).   As I was going 
through Ebay I noticed this item. At first I thought it was a modified  and 
shortened Varney Aero Train plastic engine. Since it caught my eye I went into 
the auction to check it out. Would love to see if there is more to 
it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Just thought members 
might get a kick out of it.    Also saw a boxed " Manor " 
mint gondola kit, wood and metal but it was going off in 12 min and didn't 
follow up further on it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12138
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 10/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                You see his every now and again on ebay, usually 
with a few cars and maybe a little track I think.  I know this because I 
often troll for Aerotrain items.  I think I even bid once.  But 
Japanese tin toys in good shape seem to draw pretty high dollars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 5:37 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: [vintageHO] oddity to me 
  ???
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  While there is so much out there that I have never heard of or seen I think 
  this really is kind of neat and odd. If you go to Ebay item    
  150381618677      Vintage made in Japan Toy Train 
  Engine HO  (made from tin / metal ??).   As I was going 
  through Ebay I noticed this item. At first I thought it was a modified  
  and shortened Varney Aero Train plastic engine. Since it caught my eye I went 
  into the auction to check it out. Would love to see if there is more to 
  it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Just thought 
  members might get a kick out of it.    Also saw a boxed " 
  Manor " mint gondola kit, wood and metal but it was going off in 12 min and 
  didn't follow up further on it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12139
						From: Mr Larry Doub
						Date: 10/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                That is like a Ninja version of the New York Central's Bullet trains..
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> You see his every now and again on ebay, usually with a few cars and maybe a little track I think.  I know this because I often troll for Aerotrain items.  I think I even bid once.  But Japanese tin toys in good shape seem to draw pretty high dollars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 5:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Subject: [vintageHO] oddity to me ???
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                     While there is so much out there that I have never heard of or seen I think this really is kind of neat and odd. If you go to Ebay item    150381618677      Vintage made in Japan Toy Train Engine HO  (made from tin / metal ??).   As I was going through Ebay I noticed this item. At first I thought it was a modified  and shortened Varney Aero Train plastic engine. Since it caught my eye I went into the auction to check it out. Would love to see if there is more to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>         Just thought members might get a kick out of it.    Also saw a boxed " Manor " mint gondola kit, wood and metal but it was going off in 12 min and didn't follow up further on it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12140
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 10/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: my blog
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Thanks guys.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "CinderCrusher" <defoe242@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I agree with you, Don.  The reefer is a Varney.  Also the B&O Timesaver car.  That is also a Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Bill DeFoe
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > The Burlington reefer looks like a Varney.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12141
						From: Matthew
						Date: 10/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim, et al
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I don't know if this helps, but many years ago the Portland Zoo had a half-size ersatz copy of the Aerotrain (30-in gauge) that it ran and I remember seeing tin toy Aerotrains in the Zoo store., They were about $4.95 as I recall and came with two or three cars that hooked on -- I think the cars only had two wheels each. They were lithographed metal and had pressed metal track. They looked to be about HO guage but to no particular scale. It was at least 30 years ago so the memories are hazy. I don't know if these are the same but at least it is a starting point.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> You see his every now and again on ebay, usually with a few cars and maybe a little track I think.  I know this because I often troll for Aerotrain items.  I think I even bid once.  But Japanese tin toys in good shape seem to draw pretty high dollars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   From: jim heckard 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 5:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Subject: [vintageHO] oddity to me ???
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                     While there is so much out there that I have never heard of or seen I think this really is kind of neat and odd. If you go to Ebay item    150381618677      Vintage made in Japan Toy Train Engine HO  (made from tin / metal ??).   As I was going through Ebay I noticed this item. At first I thought it was a modified  and shortened Varney Aero Train plastic engine. Since it caught my eye I went into the auction to check it out. Would love to see if there is more to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>         Just thought members might get a kick out of it.    Also saw a boxed " Manor " mint gondola kit, wood and metal but it was going off in 12 min and didn't follow up further on it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12142
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 10/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Matthew wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 > I don't know if this helps, but many years ago the Portland Zoo had a
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> half-size ersatz copy of the Aerotrain (30-in gauge) that it ran and
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> I remember seeing tin toy Aerotrains in the Zoo store., They were
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> about $4.95 as I recall and came with two or three cars that hooked
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> on -- I think the cars only had two wheels each. They were
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> lithographed metal and had pressed metal track. They looked to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> about HO guage but to no particular scale. It was at least 30 years
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> ago so the memories are hazy. I don't know if these are the same but
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> at least it is a starting point.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    From June 1957 until September 1958 Disneyland ran scaled down 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
versions of the Aerotrain - they called them Viewliners - between a pair 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
of stations in Fantasyland and Tomorrowland. There's a couple of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
paragraphs and a photo on the Wikipedia page for the Aerotrain here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerotrain_%28GM%29
                                                                                                                                                                                                
If you click on the photo for a larger version you can see Walt Disney 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
at the controls.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    I grew up in Anaheim and have very vague memories of seeing and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
riding on the Viewliner. Many years later, when I was in the band in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
high school, we marched in the Disneyland holiday parade one time. As we 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
marched back to the buses behind the scenes I spotted one of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Viewliner trains in a maintenance shed. So apparently Disney kept them 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
around for at least 10 years after removing them from service. No idea 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
as to the disposition of them now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
If money is the root of all evil, why do churches want so much
                                                                                                                                                                                                
of it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12143
						From: trainliker
						Date: 10/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I was recently at the "National Railroad Museum" in Green Bay and they have a nice display of a model actually built by General Motors.  It seems to be 1/8 scale to me.  Condition looks perfect.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
At their website, they have some "slides" of exhibits and it is the fourth "slide".
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://www.nationalrrmuseum.org/en-Us/exhibits/exhibits/default.aspx
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Clink on "View the interactive slideshow of exhibits by clicking here!" and then just click "Next" to get to the 4th slide.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
P.S., by the way, it is "the love of money" (from 1 Timothy 6:10), not just "money" which is, of course, an entirely different proposition.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     From June 1957 until September 1958 Disneyland ran scaled down 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> versions of the Aerotrain - they called them Viewliners - between a pair 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> of stations in Fantasyland and Tomorrowland. There's a couple of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> paragraphs and a photo on the Wikipedia page for the Aerotrain here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerotrain_%28GM%29
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> If you click on the photo for a larger version you can see Walt Disney 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> at the controls.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     I grew up in Anaheim and have very vague memories of seeing and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> riding on the Viewliner. Many years later, when I was in the band in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> high school, we marched in the Disneyland holiday parade one time. As we 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> marched back to the buses behind the scenes I spotted one of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Viewliner trains in a maintenance shed. So apparently Disney kept them 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> around for at least 10 years after removing them from service. No idea 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> as to the disposition of them now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> If money is the root of all evil, why do churches want so much
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> of it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12144
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: rare Penn Line passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                         
As a collector of vintage HO trains  I want to pass along pictures of the 
latest items / set I have added to my collection. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                        
This is the first Penn Line passenger set. I believe it to be the second  
hardest and rarest PL item, after their Crusader, to find. The set includes a 
powered plastic F-7 A unit, a dummy plastic B unit with horn installed inside 
and four metal passenger cars that were made by Fleischmann. There is a button 
that comes with the set to activate the horn in the B unit. The horn which 
wasn't the best to start with does not work after all these years ( around 1960 
)  While there is no box the set is excellent with all decals present and 
no broken steps on the diesels. Paint on the entire set is in great shape. A 
real nice collectable only vintage item to put on a shelf to view. Sorry worth a 
little to much to me to run. Can't take a chance of an 
accident.
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12145
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 10/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: rare Penn Line passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
just looked at your Penn line cars... obviously Fleischmann in disguise; 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
they were sold in Europe in UP and PRR paint.  Basically this are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Deutsche Reichsbahn " Schürzenwagen" - skirt cars - the most advanced 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
prewar passenger cars , which were used for the premier trains in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
fifties until new equipment was built. Would be curious to see a closeup 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
of the trucks, cant identify them from the distance.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12146
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: rare Penn Line passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Will get a close up of the 
passenger car trucks to you but might not be till Monday as things here are 
a little hectic. Thanks for the information about the type of cars these are and 
the other road names available. The Northern Pacific set is the only one I know 
sold by Penn Line.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 2:16 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] rare Penn Line 
  passenger set
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Jim,

                                                                                                                                                                                                just looked at your Penn line cars... obviously Fleischmann 
  in disguise; 
                                                                                                                                                                                                they were sold in Europe in UP and PRR paint. Basically this 
  are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Deutsche Reichsbahn " Schürzenwagen" - skirt cars - the most advanced 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                prewar passenger cars , which were used for the premier trains in the 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                fifties until new equipment was built. Would be curious to see a closeup 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                of the trucks, cant identify them from the 
  distance.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Gerold

                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12147
						From: Matthew
						Date: 10/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Rick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
The timing makes me wonder if they ended up on the Portland Zoo Rwy. I will check my photos from 59 and 61 to see if I have any of the train I remember.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
All this doesn't help Jim with the Aero Train (sic) on eBay but it is fun to go down memory lane.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     From June 1957 until September 1958 Disneyland ran scaled down 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> versions of the Aerotrain - they called them Viewliners - between a pair of stations in Fantasyland and Tomorrowland. There's a couple of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
paragraphs and a photo on the Wikipedia page for the Aerotrain here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerotrain_%28GM%29
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> If you click on the photo for a larger version you can see Walt Disney at the controls.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     I grew up in Anaheim and have very vague memories of seeing and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> riding on the Viewliner. Many years later, when I was in the band in high school, we marched in the Disneyland holiday parade one time. As we marched back to the buses behind the scenes I spotted one of the Viewliner trains in a maintenance shed. So apparently Disney kept them around for at least 10 years after removing them from service. No idea as to the disposition of them now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> If money is the root of all evil, why do churches want so much
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> of it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12148
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 10/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


  
  

 
Matthew wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Rick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
The timing makes me wonder if they ended up on the Portland Zoo Rwy. I
will check my photos from 59 and 61 to see if I have any of the train I
remember.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Found this online: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://www.oregonzoo.org/AboutZoo/train.htm#thefleet
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://lostoregon.wordpress.com/2008/10/03/oregon-zoo-railroad/
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://www.trainweb.org/mccann/zoo.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
little off topic... definitely vintage but not HO...
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12149
						From: Matthew
						Date: 10/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
First, my thanks to you for making me feel better about my memory! I was only 9 in 1959 but was pretty sure (I was a avid model railroader at the time) that what I saw at the Portland Zoo was the Aerotrain. Second, based on the timing mentioned in Rick's post, it couldn't be the same train as used in Disneyland. Perhaps the builder made and sold several of them to parks and theme parks around the country.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
You are a superb researcher! And since I am deployed for a month or so overseas, it was going to be a long time before I got back to check my own photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Thanks!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Matt Coleman
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Matthew wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
> > Rick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
The timing makes me wonder if they ended up on the Portland Zoo Rwy. I will check my photos from 59 and 61 to see if I have any of the train I remember.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Found this online:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://www.oregonzoo.org/AboutZoo/train.htm#thefleet
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://lostoregon.wordpress.com/2008/10/03/oregon-zoo-railroad/
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://www.trainweb.org/mccann/zoo.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> little off topic... definitely vintage but not HO...
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12150
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 10/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Matthew wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> First, my thanks to you for making me feel better about my memory! I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> was only 9 in 1959 but was pretty sure (I was a avid model railroader 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> at the time) that what I saw at the Portland Zoo was the Aerotrain. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Second, based on the timing mentioned in Rick's post, it couldn't be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> the same train as used in Disneyland. Perhaps the builder made and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> sold several of them to parks and theme parks around the country.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> You are a superb researcher! And since I am deployed for a month or so 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> overseas, it was going to be a long time before I got back to check my 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> own photos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Thanks!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Matt Coleman
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                When I stumbled into Disneyland in 1981 I stood there with open mouth 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
upon the sight of the Monorail... had only known the SCHUCO models until 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
then - fortunately I took a ride .... when I returned to LA in 1996 a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
monorail ride was a firm part of my schedule, to my disappointment I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
learned that they had replaced the sleek and stylish  first generation 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
monorail with ugly shoeboxes.... skipped Disneyland.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
BTW, if "overseas" brings you in my area, you are invited on some RR 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
talk and a beer or coffee - your choice .
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Gerold  ( Vienna Austria) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 >
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> .
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12151
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 10/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Gerold Eckl wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> The timing makes me wonder if they ended up on the Portland Zoo Rwy. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> will check my photos from 59 and 61 to see if I have any of the train 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>> I remember.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Found this online:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://www.oregonzoo.org/AboutZoo/train.htm#thefleet
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://lostoregon.wordpress.com/2008/10/03/oregon-zoo-railroad/
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> http://www.trainweb.org/mccann/zoo.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    While similar in those photos, it does not look the same as the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Disneyland Viewliners. Interesting to note that other miniature 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
railroads found the prototype worth duplicating though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
If flying is so safe then why do they call the airport the
                                                                                                                                                                                                
terminal?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12152
						From: Matthew
						Date: 10/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: oddity to me ???
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Rick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I suspect it is because trains like these (culminating the Turboliner in 1972) were the last hope to save the passenger train. And model makers followed suit with models of what were supposed to be the "trains of the future." I guess that is why the Varney Aerotrain is so collectible for people my age and a little older -- we can remember both the real thing and the model. Both came to ignominious dead ends in real life.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     While similar in those photos, it does not look the same as the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Disneyland Viewliners. Interesting to note that other miniature 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> railroads found the prototype worth duplicating though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12153
						From: Askerberg
						Date: 10/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: New finds
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I have upload photos to "AL-2's photos" in the photos section of my 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
two acquisitions at a meet yesterday.  This is a nicely built, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
detailed, and painted model, but it does seem to have some continuity 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
problems.  It should run fine once I get to work on it.  I need to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
change the headlight back to the stock NYC type.  I believe parts are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
still available from Bowser.  I will also re letter it for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
NYC.  I welcome any comments or hints on servicing the mechanism.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
The second item is a Cary box cab on the Athearn Hustler chassis.  It 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
looks like Ernst gearing was installed.  It runs OK but noisily - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
need cleaning and lubel  It appears as though there might be Walters 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Goo seeping out of the ,joints on the casting.  I need to strip the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
paint and start over with the body.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I am pleased with both acquisitions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Al
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12154
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Penn Line/Fleischmann passenger car trucks
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Gerold, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                      As per your request 
here are some pictures of the Penn Line / Fleischmann early passenger cars 
including two close up views of the trucks. I have no idea what they are copies 
of, German or American. I have also included some other interesting pictures 
about the set..
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    A picture of the metal 
bottom showing the stamped in name Fleischmann  Made in US Zone Germany 
with the Penn Line sticker over part of it. This is the same on all 4 different 
passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    A picture of the horn  
installed inside the dummy B unit. Notice the TINY capacitor from way back when. 
The B unit floor is plastic along with the truck side frame which to me look 
Athearn although the engines and the passenger cars all have European style 
couplers mounted on them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                   The last picture is the unit used to 
activate the horn inside the B unit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have started to take 
apart the passenger cars to repair all the plastic frosted window material and 
found taking them apart not that easy. You can't just slide them in with 
the way main body with the windows is made. Having metric nuts ( 4mm ) and 
bolts to take the trucks and inside wiring apart (2 lights inside each car 
with pick up in the trucks) was just the beginning  Taking the plastic roof 
off was easy but the metal construction of the cars is a small jig saw 
puzzle as they are assembled using slots and metal tabs that have been bent 
over. No screws. The main body is 4 parts, floor, car body and two ends. In the 
process of trying to figure the best way to disassemble as little as possible to 
get the windows back in place and reassemble the cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I haven't had time to check 
out the powered A unit to see what the motor drive look like yet. that's 
next.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12155
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: PL/Fleischmann A unit
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have 
included a few pictures of the powered A unit motor and drive that I just took 
apart to look at. While this is slightly different from what I had considered 
the first original Penn Line F-7 diesel drive this now has to be "the first". 
While both have single powered truck drives with motors on the slant the 
differences are this motor is on its side while the next later motor ( 
which I had always considered the first original one )  was mounted 
straight up.  Also this has a clear neoprene tube ( ? as it might have 
been changed ) from the motor shaft to the driven axles while the later one 
has a coil spring.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    This drive set up being first is 
new news to me. Always something to learn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12156
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 10/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: PL/Fleischmann A unit [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


  
  

 
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have included a few
pictures of the powered A unit motor and drive that I just took apart
to look at. While this is slightly different from what I had considered
the first original Penn Line F-7 diesel drive this now has to be "the
first". While both have single powered truck drives with motors on the
slant the differences are this motor is on its side while the next
later motor ( which I had always considered the first original one ) 
was mounted straight up.  Also this has a clear neoprene tube ( ? as it
might have been changed ) from the motor shaft to the driven axles
while the later one has a coil spring.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    This drive set up being first is
new news to me. Always something to learn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Hi Jim, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
this doesnt look like anything I know as Fleischmann... have never seen
this type of Motor in an German product.  No idea what this might be ,
my knowledge of vintage US F-units is insufficient to risk a guess. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I have  taken pictures of my Fleischmann F-units, I assume they are
from the sixties but dont think an probable earlier run might be so
much different... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
two pictures show the Fleischmann and an late run Athearn for
comparision - take notice of the too short wheelbase of the
Fleischmann! - une picture shows the mechanism with the "pancake" motor
and the weird attachment plate. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Will try to explain way of attachment: the mechanism is inserted in the
shell, and by doing this the "clips" that hold the trucks are pressed
together so the trucks wont fall out... then the plate visible at the
bottom of the picture is inserted in a slot that goes both through
frame and shell, then the small tabs of it are bent down. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
For further identification, there is a prominent "Fleischmann" skript
on the bottom of the dummy truck. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
   
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12157
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 10/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: PL/Fleischmann A unit [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


  
  

 
This one came with the Penn Line Passenger set didn't it?  That is
the only Penn Line F7 drive I ever saw in my early HO days.  I sold
several of these sets through the store where I worked.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                
====================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have included a few
pictures of the powered A unit motor and drive that I just took apart
to look at. While this is slightly different from what I had considered
the first original Penn Line F-7 diesel drive this now has to be "the
first". While both have single powered truck drives with motors on the
slant the differences are this motor is on its side while the next
later motor ( which I had always considered the first original one ) 
was mounted straight up.  Also this has a clear neoprene tube ( ? as it
might have been changed ) from the motor shaft to the driven axles
while the later one has a coil spring.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    This drive set up being first is
new news to me. Always something to learn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12158
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: PL/Fleischmann A unit [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Only the 
passenger cars on that first Northern Pacific Penn Line set were made in Germany 
from what I know. The A & B units were Athearn bodies, the B unit plastic 
floor was an Athearn and the sideframes look Athearn, The A unit metal frames, 
motors and drives were probably made for and or designed by Penn 
Line in America but could have been German (minus the motor that I believe to be 
Pittman) made for Penn Line. Anyone have any definitive information ? This 
PL set was from about 1958-1960
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    It is still nice to look at 
those Fleischmann F-7 units and their drives.  I have only have Fleischmann 
FA's to go by. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Did you see the type of trucks 
on the passenger cars for the PL set I sent ? Are they a German or American 
design ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 3:53 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PL/Fleischmann A 
  unit [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                jim heckard wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                        I 
    have included a few pictures of the powered A unit motor and drive that I 
    just took apart to look at. While this is slightly different from what I had 
    considered the first original Penn Line F-7 diesel drive this now has to be 
    "the first". While both have single powered truck drives with motors on the 
    slant the differences are this motor is on its side while the next 
    later motor ( which I had always considered the first original one 
    )  was mounted straight up.  Also this has a clear neoprene 
    tube ( ? as it might have been changed ) from the motor shaft to the 
    driven axles while the later one has a coil spring.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    This drive set up being 
    first is new news to me. Always something to learn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
  














                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi 
  Jim, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                this doesnt look like anything I know as Fleischmann. .. have 
  never seen this type of Motor in an German product.  No idea what this 
  might be , my knowledge of vintage US F-units is insufficient to risk a guess. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                I have  taken pictures of my Fleischmann F-units, I assume they 
  are from the sixties but dont think an probable earlier run might be so much 
  different... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                two pictures show the Fleischmann and an late run Athearn for 
  comparision - take notice of the too short wheelbase of the Fleischmann! - une 
  picture shows the mechanism with the "pancake" motor and the weird attachment 
  plate. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Will try to explain way of attachment: the mechanism is 
  inserted in the shell, and by doing this the "clips" that hold the trucks are 
  pressed together so the trucks wont fall out... then the plate visible at the 
  bottom of the picture is inserted in a slot that goes both through frame and 
  shell, then the small tabs of it are bent down. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                For further 
  identification, there is a prominent "Fleischmann" skript on the bottom of the 
  dummy truck. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12159
						From: trainliker
						Date: 10/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: PL/Fleischmann A unit [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                American design.  Look like one of the GSC (General Steel Castings Company) type "41" designs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Refer to this Walthers truck:  http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/wrr/wrr1070.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
This page shows a lot type "41" trucks and some have the high ends, and some don't.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://www.hobbylinc.com/cgi-bin/s7.cgi?cat_s=UR&str=gsc+41
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
The similarities are there except the Fleischman truck seems a little foreshortened, molst likely to be proportional to the shortness of the car.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>         Only the passenger cars on that first Northern Pacific Penn Line set were made in Germany from what I know. The A & B units were Athearn bodies, the B unit plastic floor was an Athearn and the sideframes look Athearn, The A unit metal frames, motors and drives were probably made for and or designed by Penn Line in America but could have been German (minus the motor that I believe to be Pittman) made for Penn Line. Anyone have any definitive information ? This PL set was from about 1958-1960
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     It is still nice to look at those Fleischmann F-7 units and their drives.  I have only have Fleischmann FA's to go by. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     Did you see the type of trucks on the passenger cars for the PL set I sent ? Are they a German or American design ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>                                                         Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   From: Gerold Eckl 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 3:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PL/Fleischmann A unit [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>     [Attachment(s) from Gerold Eckl included below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   jim heckard wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>             I have included a few pictures of the powered A unit motor and drive that I just took apart to look at. While this is slightly different from what I had considered the first original Penn Line F-7 diesel drive this now has to be "the first". While both have single powered truck drives with motors on the slant the differences are this motor is on its side while the next later motor ( which I had always considered the first original one )  was mounted straight up.  Also this has a clear neoprene tube ( ? as it might have been changed ) from the motor shaft to the driven axles while the later one has a coil spring.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>         This drive set up being first is new news to me. Always something to learn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>          
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Hi Jim, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   this doesnt look like anything I know as Fleischmann... have never seen this type of Motor in an German product.  No idea what this might be , my knowledge of vintage US F-units is insufficient to risk a guess. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   I have  taken pictures of my Fleischmann F-units, I assume they are from the sixties but dont think an probable earlier run might be so much different... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   two pictures show the Fleischmann and an late run Athearn for comparision - take notice of the too short wheelbase of the Fleischmann! - une picture shows the mechanism with the "pancake" motor and the weird attachment plate. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Will try to explain way of attachment: the mechanism is inserted in the shell, and by doing this the "clips" that hold the trucks are pressed together so the trucks wont fall out... then the plate visible at the bottom of the picture is inserted in a slot that goes both through frame and shell, then the small tabs of it are bent down. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   For further identification, there is a prominent "Fleischmann" skript on the bottom of the dummy truck. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>   Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12160
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 10/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: PL/Fleischmann A unit
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


  
  

 
trainliker wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                American design. Look like one of the GSC (General Steel Castings
Company) type "41" designs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Refer to this Walthers truck: http://www.hobbylin c.com/htm/ wrr/wrr1070. htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
This page shows a lot type "41" trucks and some have the high ends, and
some don't.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  http://www.hobbylin c.com/cgi- bin/s7.cgi? cat_s=UR& str=gsc+41
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
The similarities are there except the Fleischman truck seems a little
foreshortened, molst likely to be proportional to the shortness of the
car.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
"jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> It is still nice to look at those Fleischmann F-7 units and their
drives. I have only have Fleischmann FA's to go by. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Did you see the type of trucks on the passenger cars for the PL
set I sent ? Are they a German or American design ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim, Chuck, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
they are definitely US design- nothing like this in Germany. I didnt
reply yet because I want to dig out my Fleischmann ElCapitan set to
check - I am quite sure the trucks on the high levels are similar but
not identical. Strange, as the prototype ElCap cars used a much more
modern design - outside swing hanger trucks. Therefore I assume
Fleischmann had the molds already at hand when they designed the ElCap
cars. The fake NH plastic cars (which are actually Swiss coaches and
combines painted silver) they sold at the same time  came with the same
trucks as the Elcap bilevels. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                   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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12161
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 10/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Some New Vids
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Again I have done some more videos, I guess its a hobby within a hobby! Hmm! Well, here is the latest Withlacoochee River Report.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Couldn't resist, I have aquired some more passenger cars from a friend, and wanted to run them, but he had them weighted and the wheelsets are lousy, so I will have to change that, the wheelsets on 4 of these cars are causing so much drag, I needed to do a double header just to move this short train, and both these engines are good pullers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                The train in this next video is months away from extinction, its 1959, and diesels will be soon taking over this Withlacoochee route.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Up to the Mine in this run on the Mt Union.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Ben Neal finally made a 30 inch gauge coach to go with his beautiful combine, so now I can have real passenger service on the Mt Union!
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Its December 1957, and this lone mixed train makes a lonely journey over the Highline toward Silverton.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Enjoy, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12162
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: PL/Fleischmann A unit
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Sorry this reply late as your 4:13 PM Email just showed up on my computer. The 
picture of the powered Penn Line F-7 Northern Pacific engine I sent was with the 
Penn Line /Fleischmann passenger set. Since you worked in a store where you sold 
some of these sets I'm wondering if you remember what they sold for and what 
year that was ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 4:13 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PL/Fleischmann A 
  unit
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                This one came with the Penn Line Passenger set didn't it?  That is 
  the only Penn Line F7 drive I ever saw in my early HO days.  I sold 
  several of these sets through the store where I worked.

                                                                                                                                                                                                Don Staton in 
  VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====

                                                                                                                                                                                                jim 
  heckard wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                        I 
    have included a few pictures of the powered A unit motor and drive that I 
    just took apart to look at. While this is slightly different from what I had 
    considered the first original Penn Line F-7 diesel drive this now has to be 
    "the first". While both have single powered truck drives with motors on the 
    slant the differences are this motor is on its side while the next 
    later motor ( which I had always considered the first original one 
    )  was mounted straight up.  Also this has a clear neoprene 
    tube ( ? as it might have been changed ) from the motor shaft to the 
    driven axles while the later one has a coil spring.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    This drive set up being 
    first is new news to me. Always something to learn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12163
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 10/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: PL/Fleischmann A unit
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


  

 
After'59 and before '61...
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                         Sorry this reply late as
your 4:13 PM Email just showed up on my computer. The picture of the
powered Penn Line F-7 Northern Pacific engine I sent was with the Penn
Line /Fleischmann passenger set. Since you worked in a store where you
sold some of these sets I'm wondering if you remember what they sold
for and what year that was ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12164
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 10/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: PL/Fleischmann A unit
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                


  

 
I do not remember the price but they were not good sellers and went
cheap.
                                                                                                                                                                                                
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                
=====================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                After'59 and before '61...
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
jim heckard wrote:
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                         Sorry this reply late as
your 4:13 PM Email just showed up on my computer. The picture of the
powered Penn Line F-7 Northern Pacific engine I sent was with the Penn
Line /Fleischmann passenger set. Since you worked in a store where you
sold some of these sets I'm wondering if you remember what they sold
for and what year that was ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12165
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 10/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: PL/Fleischmann A unit
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                   Probably not liked because of European 
style. Yet today a real Penn Line find and collectors piece. Wish I could have 
bought a cheap one then and had it mint today.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 8:10 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                Subject: Re: [vintageHO] PL/Fleischmann A 
  unit
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                I do not remember the price but they were not good sellers and went 
  cheap.
                                                                                                                                                                                                Don Staton in 
  VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                ============ ========= ========= =======

                                                                                                                                                                                                Donald 
  R. Staton wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                After'59 and before '61...

                                                                                                                                                                                                jim heckard wrote: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                Hi Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                         Sorry this 
      reply late as your 4:13 PM Email just showed up on my computer. The 
      picture of the powered Penn Line F-7 Northern Pacific engine I sent was 
      with the Penn Line /Fleischmann passenger set. Since you worked in a store 
      where you sold some of these sets I'm wondering if you remember what they 
      sold for and what year that was ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12166
						From: sswcharlie
						Date: 10/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Bowser E7 B Body Parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Doing a kitbash to make a RockIsland  AB6.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
I have obtained a Bowser body but none of the parts with it.  Need the roofline items.  The AB6 I am doing is the early version with only one engine and a baggage area.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Any ideas where to locate parts
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Charlie Harris
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12167
						From: Riley K
						Date: 10/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Clamps to Square Four Sides of Resin Models
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Can anyone recommend particular clamps or other devices they use to keep all four sides of a resin model square prior to applying glue? Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12168
						From: Howard R Garner
						Date: 10/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Clamps to Square Four Sides of Resin Models
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                The "Right Clamp" is what you are looking for.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Available from Micro-Mark and others.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Manufactors web site
                                                                                                                                                                                                
<http://www.coffmaneng.com/rightclamp/rc-unique.cfm>
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Howard Garner
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12169
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 10/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Clamps to Square Four Sides of Resin Models
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                I like the magnetic glueing jug from Micromark.
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
http://www.micromark.com/MAGNETIC-GLUING-JIG-10-1and4-SQUARE,7038.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                

                                                                                                                                                                                                 --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Riley K" <riley050748@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> Can anyone recommend particular clamps or other devices they use to keep all four sides of a resin model square prior to applying glue? Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						                                                                                                                                                                                                		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12170
						From: Willard Seehorn
						Date: 10/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						Subject: Re: Clamps to Square Four Sides of Resin Models
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                


                                                                                                                                                                                                Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
At 02:07 PM 10/28/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Can anyone recommend
particular clamps or other devices they use to keep all four sides of a
resin model square prior to applying glue?
Thanks,


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've taken two adjustable squares (AKA Try Square, see the picture),
pulled the head off of one, flipped it and put it on the
"ruler" of the other so that the flat surfaces face each
other.  This gives you two square corners.  A pair of them
would give you the whole building.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Will

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Emacs!
 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12171
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 10/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: GHC/AristoCraft 2-8-2 Boiler
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  While I normally don't post this sort of thing, I have a GHC AristoCraft 2-8-2 Mikado boiler that is in excellent shape (Just needs a bell inside the bracket on the boiler front), with no zamak rot. I would like to see if anyone here on list would be interested in buying it for $20 including shipping? I can negotiate if this seems steep.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The boiler was from a complete engine, that a squirrel loose in my apartment, knocked off a table. The pilot and trailing trucks were damaged, and I used the motor in another engine after this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyone interested? Contact me off list at sneubaum@...

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hope I haven't broken any rules. As I said, this is not the kind of post I would usually make.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12172
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 10/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Clamps to Square Four Sides of Resin Models
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  That is a great idea.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Willard Seehorn <wseehorn@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> At 02:07 PM 10/28/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > Can anyone recommend particular clamps or other devices they use 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > to keep all four sides of a resin model square prior to applying glue? Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I've taken two adjustable squares (AKA Try Square, see the picture), 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> pulled the head off of one, flipped it and put it on the "ruler" of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the other so that the flat surfaces face each other.  This gives you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> two square corners.  A pair of them would give you the whole building.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Will
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Emacs!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12173
						From: Jay Wanczyk
						Date: 10/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New finds; + NYC Subway Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Al,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Finally made time to look at your new finds this AM.  You did well! Those Bowser K-11's are not seen too often at the shows I frequent, and complete Cary boxcabs do not last long on the tables when they do.  As always, your photos are great and really show the models to their best perspective.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I had to miss one of my favorite meets last Saturday (NYSME), as it conflicted this time with another once a year, can't miss meet, the NYC Mass Transit Modeler's Meet at Rutgers in New Brunswick, NJ.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I was not disappointed, as I found three 30 year old cast body shells for the 1920-22 to 1969 era NYC BMT "Standard" subway cars, deck roof version and also a few parts for turn of the centruy to 1950 era BMT Elevated cars sold as kits in the mid 1960's.  Now I have some more winter projects to complete as well!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A stock photo of the BMT car shell is attached below, but it does not show all of the fine rivet and other details. Here is a link in case attachment does not work:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Askerberg <aiberg@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sun, October 25, 2009 11:06:20 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] New finds

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have upload photos to "AL-2's photos" in the photos section of my 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  two acquisitions at a meet yesterday. This is a nicely built, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  detailed, and painted model, but it does seem to have some continuity 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  problems. It should run fine once I get to work on it. I need to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  change the headlight back to the stock NYC type. I believe parts are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  still available from Bowser. I will also re letter it for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  NYC. I welcome any comments or hints on servicing the mechanism.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The second item is a Cary box cab on the Athearn Hustler chassis. It 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  looks like Ernst gearing was installed. It runs OK but noisily - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  need cleaning and lubel It appears as though there might be Walters 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Goo seeping out of the ,joints on the casting. I need to strip the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  paint and start over with the body.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am pleased with both acquisitions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Al


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12174
						From: DanielH
						Date: 10/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Vintage Craftsman Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have a fairly large collection of older craftsman kits by companies such as Suydam, Campbell, Ayres, etc that I need to sell for financial reasons.  If anyone is interested, please send me an email and I will reply with a list.  (I am hoping to get about 30-50% of what the kits currently go for.)  The kits are all in the original boxes, and complete.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12175
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 10/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Vintage Craftsman Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  DanielH wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > Hi, I have a fairly large collection of older craftsman kits by
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> companies such as Suydam, Campbell, Ayres, etc that I need to sell
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> for financial reasons.  If anyone is interested, please send me an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> email and I will reply with a list.  (I am hoping to get about 30-50%
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> of what the kits currently go for.)  The kits are all in the original
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> boxes, and complete.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      <sigh> I feel your pain. I wish I could buy some but I am in a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
similar situation, having been unemployed since Feb. At least I'm not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
quite to the point yet of having to sell my trains. My sympathies are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
with you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"The only capital crime in Nature is stupidity. The penalty is death,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and it is administered promptly and without mercy."
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    -Robert A. Heinlein
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12176
						From: Thomas Parsons
						Date: 10/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Vintage Craftsman Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                     Daniel. I would be interested in the craftsman kits. Would you send me a list.  Tom Parsons.

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Sat, 10/31/09, DanielH <danielhogue@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: DanielH <danielhogue@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Craftsman Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Saturday, October 31, 2009, 6:28 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a fairly large collection of older craftsman kits by companies such as Suydam, Campbell, Ayres, etc that I need to sell for financial reasons. If anyone is interested, please send me an email and I will reply with a list. (I am hoping to get about 30-50% of what the kits currently go for.) The kits are all in the original boxes, and complete.


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12177
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 10/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Vintage Craftsman Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dan
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I would like to have your list

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent from my iPhone

                                                                                                                                                                                                   On Oct 31, 2009, at 9:28 AM, "DanielH" <danielhogue@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have a fairly large collection of older craftsman kits by companies such as Suydam, Campbell, Ayres, etc that I need to sell for financial reasons.  If anyone is interested, please send me an email and I will reply with a list.  (I am hoping to get about 30-50% of what the kits currently go for.)  The kits are all in the original boxes, and complete.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

    
	
	
	



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12178
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Fleischmann metal passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Gerold, all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                        As you may remember 
I am in the process of "refurbishing" a set of vintage Fleischmann metal 
passenger cars that came with the first Penn Line passenger set. I will not be 
touching the original factory finish but I have to take the passenger cars 
apart to replace the frosted window material, replace interior lights and 
fix some wiring for the lights.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       While these cars have nuts 
/ bolts holding on the trucks and the roof the bodies are what I will 
describe as tin plate using a series of slots and metal tabs you bend over to 
assemble. I have been able to get one car completely apart but wonder if I am 
going about it the right way. It is kind of a jigsaw type assembly at least to 
me. To get into the body, because of how the bodies are assembled, you 
have to take it totally apart. Maybe there is an easier way or not totally apart 
to get those one piece full length window material pieces replaced. The way the 
main body component is rounded at the ends you can not just slip the old piece 
out and slip a new one in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have only one piece of 
Fleischmann paperwork and that sheet deals with lubrication of Fleischmann 
engines. Have you ever seen or do you know of any paperwork associated with 
these metal passenger cars that would tell you the steps to take to assemble 
/disassemble ? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    While I have made a special tool for me to 
totally disassemble this one car I am now able to do all 4 but hope I can save 
some steps and time if there is an easier way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12179
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann metal passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  If nothing else........

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Use a low-cost digital camera and take a lot of in-progress shots. Most of the Nikon snapshot cameras do this very well in macro-mode.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you go this route, go someplace with them on demo cases, like Best Buy, and put a few coins on the counter to focus on. Most of the Cool-Pix models can fill the viewer in perfect clarity with a 1/3 of a nickle. The 8-10x  close focus models are a bit over $100.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They slip into shirt pockets well and if you get one of the AA-battery cameras, you can always have well-charged batteries with you. It's a good general camera.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  On Nov 1, 2009, at 8:39 AM, jim heckard wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Gerold, all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                        As you may remember I am in the process of "refurbishing" a set of vintage Fleischmann metal passenger cars that came with the first Penn Line passenger set. I will not be touching the original factory finish but I have to take the passenger cars apart to replace the frosted window material, replace interior lights and fix some wiring for the lights.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                       While these cars have nuts / bolts holding on the trucks and the roof the bodies are what I will describe as tin plate using a series of slots and metal tabs you bend over to assemble. I have been able to get one car completely apart but wonder if I am going about it the right way. It is kind of a jigsaw type assembly at least to me. To get into the body, because of how the bodies are assembled, you have to take it totally apart. Maybe there is an easier way or not totally apart to get those one piece full length window material pieces replaced. The way the main body component is rounded at the ends you can not just slip the old piece out and slip a new one in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have only one piece of Fleischmann paperwork and that sheet deals with lubrication of Fleischmann engines. Have you ever seen or do you know of any paperwork associated with these metal passenger cars that would tell you the steps to take to assemble /disassemble ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                    While I have made a special tool for me to totally disassemble this one car I am now able to do all 4 but hope I can save some steps and time if there is an easier way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                   



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12180
						From: still just  frank
						Date: 11/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: GHC/AristoCraft 2-8-2 Boiler
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> While I normally don't post this sort of thing, I have a GHC AristoCraft 2-8-2 Mikado boiler that is in excellent shape (Just needs a bell inside the bracket on the boiler front), with no zamak rot. I would like to see if anyone here on list would be interested in buying it for $20 including shipping? I can negotiate if this seems steep.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The boiler was from a complete engine, that a squirrel loose in my apartment, knocked off a table. The pilot and trailing trucks were damaged, and I used the motor in another engine after this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Anyone interested? Contact me off list at sneubaum@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hope I haven't broken any rules. As I said, this is not the kind of post I would usually make.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve, I have 4 of those that run. To get these 4 running I had to have 6, plus other parts. All the boilers were good. Only 3 of the tenders were any good. Half the tender trucks were bad. My one common problum with the loco was frames. 3 were no good. I was able to repair one. On one I replaced the front pilot. All four run well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
         frank
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12181
						From: still just  frank
						Date: 11/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: GHC/AristoCraft 2-8-2 Boiler
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "still just  frank" <toptrain2100@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > While I normally don't post this sort of thing, I have a GHC AristoCraft 2-8-2 Mikado boiler that is in excellent shape (Just needs a bell inside the bracket on the boiler front), with no zamak rot. I would like to see if anyone here on list would be interested in buying it for $20 including shipping? I can negotiate if this seems steep.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > The boiler was from a complete engine, that a squirrel loose in my apartment, knocked off a table. The pilot and trailing trucks were damaged, and I used the motor in another engine after this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Anyone interested? Contact me off list at sneubaum@
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Hope I haven't broken any rules. As I said, this is not the kind of post I would usually make.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Steve, I have 4 of those that run. To get these 4 running I had to have 6, plus other parts. All the boilers were good. Only 3 of the tenders were any good. Half the tender trucks were bad. My one common problum with the loco was frames. 3 were no good. I was able to repair one. On one I replaced the front pilot. All four run well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>          frank
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I placed a photo of all 4 in my Franks toptrain album.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12182
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 11/1/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann metal passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I am afraid I will be of little help with your question... have never 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
had one of those cars in my hands, I see them all the time at ebay.de 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
but they are very rare in Austria... we had our local model RR company 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(Kleinbahn) which covered 95% of the demand, only the really well to do 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
had Maerklin or Fleischmann trains... with Maerklin the more common one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have however maybe ten or so of the later , plastic, Fleischmann 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
ElCapitan cars... they are rare too but I was committed to get them at 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
all costs as I admired them from the first day I saw them at a display.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Gerold, all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>       As you may remember I am in the process of "refurbishing" a set 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> of vintage Fleischmann metal passenger cars that came with the first 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Penn Line passenger set. I will not be touching the original factory 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> finish but I have to take the passenger cars apart to replace the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> frosted window material, replace interior lights and fix some wiring 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> for the lights.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>      While these cars have nuts / bolts holding on the trucks and the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> roof the bodies are what I will describe as tin plate using a series 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> of slots and metal tabs you bend over to assemble. I have been able to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> get one car completely apart but wonder if I am going about it the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> right way. It is kind of a jigsaw type assembly at least to me. To get 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> into the body, because of how the bodies are assembled, you have to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> take it totally apart. Maybe there is an easier way or not totally 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> apart to get those one piece full length window material pieces 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> replaced. The way the main body component is rounded at the ends you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> can not just slip the old piece out and slip a new one in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     I have only one piece of Fleischmann paperwork and that sheet 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> deals with lubrication of Fleischmann engines. Have you ever seen or 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> do you know of any paperwork associated with these metal passenger 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> cars that would tell you the steps to take to assemble /disassemble ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   While I have made a special tool for me to totally disassemble this 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> one car I am now able to do all 4 but hope I can save some steps and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> time if there is an easier way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                   Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12183
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 11/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: train show finds: my 1st Bowser Challenger, now what...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Picked up a green/white Bowser box Challenger Saturday.  Partly built 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Challenger, no tender of course.  Running gear seems to have all been 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
built and motor mounted.  Drive train couplings/universals are black 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
plastic, (or delrin?), if that is any indication of vintage of this version.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Beautiful boiler casting except one running board is snapped off 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
where it extends a little beyond smokebox front.  I guess I'll have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to cut that back and splice.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Lots of brass castings scattered throughout the bottom of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
box;  some in packets; many loose including very tiny shouldered 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
screws and what appear to be rivets.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Questions:  did the standard kit come with valve gear?  At one time, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
having never dealt with one of these, I thought they did not.  This 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
model does have valve gear assembled and installed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I also understand there was a super detail kit for these from Bowser 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and I'm trying to figure out if I have that here or not.  I do find 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
two pilots:  one zamac, (nice actually), and another is brass with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the swing-out coupler.  So who ever had this may have bought some 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
extras as I can't imagine Bowser including both.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Box has original price tag of $97.95, with sticker over that of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
$90.00;  I paid $60.  I have no idea if that is good price or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Since this is my first Challenger and I have noticed Challenger fans 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
on this List, I thought I'd ask for feedback.  Thoughts/comments appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Odessa/Ritzville, WA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12184
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: train show finds: my 1st Bowser Challenger, now what...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                         I can't help 
much with newer production Bowser Challengers since I only have the Bill Bowser 
/ Redlands Ca Challenger in my vintage collection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      However if you go into  www.hoseeker.net   click on 
literature,  go to Bowser,  click on engine diagrams  and in 
that list you will find diagrams  / parts list for the 1948, 1981 and 1986 
versions. Perhaps these diagrams right from the Bowser catalog can help you. I 
not sure if there are any newer versions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Good luck with your newest addition. 
It's a beast of an engine. At least my 1948 version is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 11:57 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] train show finds: my 
  1st Bowser Challenger, now what...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Picked up a green/white Bowser box Challenger Saturday. Partly built 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Challenger, no tender of course. Running gear seems to have all been 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  built and motor mounted. Drive train couplings/universal s are black 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  plastic, (or delrin?), if that is any indication of vintage of this 
  version.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Beautiful boiler casting except one running board is snapped 
  off 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  where it extends a little beyond smokebox front. I guess I'll have 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to cut that back and splice.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Lots of brass castings scattered 
  throughout the bottom of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  box; some in packets; many loose including 
  very tiny shouldered 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  screws and what appear to be 
  rivets.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Questions: did the standard kit come with valve gear? At one 
  time, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  having never dealt with one of these, I thought they did not. This 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  model does have valve gear assembled and installed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also 
  understand there was a super detail kit for these from Bowser 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and I'm 
  trying to figure out if I have that here or not. I do find 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  two pilots: one 
  zamac, (nice actually), and another is brass with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the swing-out coupler. 
  So who ever had this may have bought some 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  extras as I can't imagine Bowser 
  including both.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Box has original price tag of $97.95, with sticker over 
  that of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  $90.00; I paid $60. I have no idea if that is good price or 
  not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Since this is my first Challenger and I have noticed Challenger 
  fans 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  on this List, I thought I'd ask for feedback. Thoughts/comments 
  appreciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Odessa/Ritzville, WA

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12185
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 11/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: train show finds: my 1st Bowser Challenger, now what...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have ~9-10 challengers and 2.5 big boys. I am at work right now and an not spend much time here, but if you have any specific questions, I will gladdly help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yes, they came with valve gear that you had to assemble. It is really not hard to do with the proper tools and materials and a little bit of patience.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  getting every thing lined up and in sinc proves to be a small challenge, but it gets easier over time as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Mon, November 2, 2009 12:28:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] train show finds: my 1st Bowser Challenger, now what...

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                         I can't help much with newer production Bowser Challengers since I only have the Bill Bowser / Redlands Ca Challenger in my vintage collection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      However if you go into  www.hoseeker. net   click on literature,  go to Bowser,  click on engine diagrams  and in that list you will find diagrams  / parts list for the 1948, 1981 and 1986 versions. Perhaps these diagrams right from the Bowser catalog can help you. I not sure if there are any newer versions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Good luck with your newest addition. It's a beast of an engine. At least my 1948 version is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 11:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] train show finds: my 1st Bowser Challenger, now what...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Picked up a green/white Bowser box Challenger Saturday. Partly built 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Challenger, no tender of course. Running gear seems to have all been 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  built and motor mounted. Drive train couplings/universal s are black 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  plastic, (or delrin?), if that is any indication of vintage of this version.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Beautiful boiler casting except one running board is snapped off 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  where it extends a little beyond smokebox front. I guess I'll have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to cut that back and splice.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Lots of brass castings scattered throughout the bottom of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  box; some in packets; many loose including very tiny shouldered 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  screws and what appear to be rivets.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Questions: did the standard kit come with valve gear? At one time, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  having never dealt with one of these, I thought they did not. This 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  model does have valve gear assembled and installed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also understand there was a super detail kit for these from Bowser 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and I'm trying to figure out if I
 have that here or not. I do find 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  two pilots: one zamac, (nice actually), and another is brass with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the swing-out coupler. So who ever had this may have bought some 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  extras as I can't imagine Bowser including both.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Box has original price tag of $97.95, with sticker over that of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  $90.00; I paid $60. I have no idea if that is good price or not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Since this is my first Challenger and I have noticed Challenger fans 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  on this List, I thought I'd ask for feedback. Thoughts/comments appreciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Odessa/Ritzville, WA


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12186
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: train show finds: my 1st Bowser Challenger, now what...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dennis,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The only loco kit from Bowser that I'm aware of that didn't come standard with the valve gear would be the little 0-4-0 dockside kit, now from the original earlier versions of the kit I'm not sure on that, but I'm pretty sure that both the Challenger and Big Boy came standard with valve gear, what they didn't come standard with was the superdetail kits, as Bowser just took ownership of Cal-Scale in the early 90's, and they also didn't come standard with a tender either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From what you describe, it sounds like the kit you picked up may be from the late 80's/early 90's period.....:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Dennis Thompson <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Mon, November 2, 2009 11:57:45 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] train show finds: my 1st Bowser Challenger, now what...

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Picked up a green/white Bowser box Challenger Saturday. Partly built 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Challenger, no tender of course. Running gear seems to have all been 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  built and motor mounted. Drive train couplings/universal s are black 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  plastic, (or delrin?), if that is any indication of vintage of this version.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Beautiful boiler casting except one running board is snapped off 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  where it extends a little beyond smokebox front. I guess I'll have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to cut that back and splice.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Lots of brass castings scattered throughout the bottom of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  box; some in packets; many loose including very tiny shouldered 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  screws and what appear to be rivets.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Questions: did the standard kit come with valve gear? At one time, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  having never dealt with one of these, I thought they did not. This 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  model does have valve gear assembled and installed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also understand there was a super detail kit for these from Bowser 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and I'm trying to figure out if I
 have that here or not. I do find 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  two pilots: one zamac, (nice actually), and another is brass with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the swing-out coupler. So who ever had this may have bought some 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  extras as I can't imagine Bowser including both.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Box has original price tag of $97.95, with sticker over that of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  $90.00; I paid $60. I have no idea if that is good price or not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Since this is my first Challenger and I have noticed Challenger fans 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  on this List, I thought I'd ask for feedback. Thoughts/comments appreciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Odessa/Ritzville, WA


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12187
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 11/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: train show finds: my 1st Bowser Challenger, now what...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dennis T,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
It also sounds to me like you have a more recent kit, plus the owner also purchased a superdetail kit as well. The duplicate pilot casting in brass is a good indication of the extra superdetail kit as it was not usually sold seperately, (I believe).  You did not get a good deal, it seems you have found a great deal!  The most recent list price before they were discontinued was kit #100300 at $141.45 for the locomotive, less tender and kit #100325 at $71.30 for the superdetail kit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
All of the current diagrams, instructions and drawings appear on line at Bowser's current web site, suggest you download them or print and save, as no telling how long they will be there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://bowser-trains.com/holocos/challenger/challenger.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I would then go through all of your parts and identifying them by comparing to the drawings, making a note of any you might be missing. I have found it handy to bag loose parts from particular groups in zip-type snack bags as they can be resealed with a 3x5 card inside noting the parts & numbers if you like.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Most parts are still available, and would order any missing ones asap, as some parts are going out of production before others.  The information found at Bowser's site will also enable you to accurately identify which specific Penna. Bowser version you have.  Going though everything step by step now is a good way to become familiar with it too, which will help later with assembly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Congrats on the find, you will have fun working with it and then running one sweet and historic model!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Picked up a green/white Bowser box Challenger Saturday.  Partly built 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Challenger, no tender of course.  Running gear seems to have all been 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> built and motor mounted.  Drive train couplings/universals are black 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> plastic, (or delrin?), if that is any indication of vintage of this version.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Beautiful boiler casting except one running board is snapped off 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> where it extends a little beyond smokebox front.  I guess I'll have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> to cut that back and splice.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Lots of brass castings scattered throughout the bottom of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> box;  some in packets; many loose including very tiny shouldered 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> screws and what appear to be rivets.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Questions:  did the standard kit come with valve gear?  At one time, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> having never dealt with one of these, I thought they did not.  This 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> model does have valve gear assembled and installed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I also understand there was a super detail kit for these from Bowser 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and I'm trying to figure out if I have that here or not.  I do find 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> two pilots:  one zamac, (nice actually), and another is brass with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the swing-out coupler.  So who ever had this may have bought some 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> extras as I can't imagine Bowser including both.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Box has original price tag of $97.95, with sticker over that of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> $90.00;  I paid $60.  I have no idea if that is good price or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Since this is my first Challenger and I have noticed Challenger fans 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> on this List, I thought I'd ask for feedback.  Thoughts/comments appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Odessa/Ritzville, WA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12188
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann metal passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have a couple (4) of those metal Fleischmann passenger cars from the 1950s.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
They were part of a train set I bought around 1960 and came with an E-10
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
blue electric loco, DB (German Federal Rwy). The loco sits in one of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
display cases, but the cars are still boxed, unused. Haven't looked at them
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
or used them in about 10 years or more....since they don't fit the motif here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Most likely, these trains were made in the late 50s or early 60s. There are
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
NO instruction sheets on how to take them apart (or reassemble them), since
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
they were never intended to be disassembled by the mfr.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Someone else also mentioned having abougt 10 of the Fleischmann plastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
El Capitan passenger cars. I have 15 of those, and have restored/repainted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and redecaled those, as I run those often. I purchased those new in Germany
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
around 1958....in Bitburg while in the military.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The El Caps run with a couple of Athearn Genises F units....
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave F
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12189
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann metal passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dave F.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for the 
comments. I figured that there would be no assembly plans for this type of early 
post war Fleischmann metal passengers cars but thought I would check. They were 
made to stay assembled once factory assembled. Over time and not in boxes the 
frosted window material has crumpled and distorted. If it wasn't for that I 
would not have to take them apart. As I mentioned no way to slip in new material 
while assembled. This Penn Line set, with the American made F-7 diesels, is 
still in great shape for 50 + years old..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I  have a 3 car set of the 
Fleischmann plastic El Captain passenger cars that came with the 
Fleischmann all metal factory painted Santa Fe, A powered, A dummy, FA 
's. From a collectors standpoint I can't afford to have many of 
each item but these passenger cars are pretty nice for someone to run 
them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  WK2SHR@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 2:01 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fleischmann 
  metal passenger cars
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a couple (4) of those 
  metal Fleischmann passenger cars from the 1950s.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They were part of a 
  train set I bought around 1960 and came with an E-10
                                                                                                                                                                                                  blue electric loco, DB 
  (German Federal Rwy). The loco sits in one of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                  display cases, but the 
  cars are still boxed, unused. Haven't looked at them
                                                                                                                                                                                                  or used them in about 
  10 years or more....since they don't fit the motif here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Most likely, 
  these trains were made in the late 50s or early 60s. There are
                                                                                                                                                                                                  NO 
  instruction sheets on how to take them apart (or reassemble them), 
  since
                                                                                                                                                                                                  they were never intended to be disassembled by the 
  mfr.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Someone else also mentioned having abougt 10 of the Fleischmann 
  plastic
                                                                                                                                                                                                  El Capitan passenger cars. I have 15 of those, and have 
  restored/repainted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and redecaled those, as I run those often. I purchased 
  those new in Germany
                                                                                                                                                                                                  around 1958....in Bitburg while in the 
  military.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The El Caps run with a couple of Athearn Genises F 
  units....

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave F


                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12190
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann metal passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Which version of the El Cap cars do you have: lounges or coaches? I need
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
more El Cap coaches.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Will swap the 4 Fleischmann DB passenger cars for the 3 (coaches) if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
are interested, and if this is doable.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Comments?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave F
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Greenville, SC
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12191
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann metal passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                   Dave F,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have two 
coaches and one lounge. As I mentioned they are part of an original set with the 
Fleischmann Santa Fe Diesels . Sorry but I don't intend to break the set. Again 
as a collector only and collecting a large range of manufacturers from 1936 
- 1975. I can only afford one of things. The only reason I have two coaches is 
that is how the set was sold by Polks Hobbies back then (around 1958). 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I have seen these 
plastic passenger cars on E bay a couple of times here and there. If I see again 
I will let you know. I'm pretty sure some other members from this site had them 
and also discussed them prior. Perhaps someone out there can help 
you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  WK2SHR@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 7:35 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fleischmann 
  metal passenger cars
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Which version of the El Cap cars 
  do you have: lounges or coaches? I need
                                                                                                                                                                                                  more El Cap coaches.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Will 
  swap the 4 Fleischmann DB passenger cars for the 3 (coaches) if you
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are 
  interested, and if this is doable.....

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Comments?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave 
  F
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Greenville, SC
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12192
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 11/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Holgate + Reynolds Double Deck Gallery Commuter Coaches
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi All:  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Around 1967, the architectural modeling material firm of Holgate+Reynolds began manufacturing kits for the double deck 80' commuter cars used by Midwest and West Coast railroads beginning as early as 1955: C&NW, RI and SP to name a few.  RMC had extensive and detailed plans of these and others in their September, 1969 issue, pages 28-33.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The kits for both push-pull coaches and cab equiped coaches sold for $8.95 and included prepainted and silk screened plastic sides, cast white metal ends, side doors, trucks and details, plus wood roof and floor. See brocure at HOSeeker:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://hoseeker.org/compendium/compendiumcommuterscars1969pg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I happened to find the sides, roofs and floors for two C&NW cars, a cab car and plain coach at a recent show and can scratch build new ends and doors if I have to, but would rather restore the cars with as much in original pasts as I am able to. Does here have any spare cast ends, doors or truck castings, perhaps from junked cars?  There is one pristine kit now on eBay, Item number: 320443493759, with a photograph of the parts in question.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320443493759&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for checking! W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12193
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 11/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Holgate + Reynolds Double Deck Gallery Commuter Coaches
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have six of the SP cars I'd like to part with--various stages of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
assembly--I also have Con-cor roofs for them--If interested contact 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
me --I'll deal on these as I have a string of the Walthers cars to go with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
my Mountain and Train Masters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The H&R kits were fairly good--except for the roofs--they looked like they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
were chewed out by a bunch of trained beavers.  gj   glenn476@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 6:44 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Holgate + Reynolds Double Deck Gallery Commuter Coaches
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi All:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Around 1967, the architectural modeling material firm of Holgate+Reynolds 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> began manufacturing kits for the double deck 80' commuter cars used by 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Midwest and West Coast railroads beginning as early as 1955: C&NW, RI and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> SP to name a few.  RMC had extensive and detailed plans of these and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> others in their September, 1969 issue, pages 28-33.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The kits for both push-pull coaches and cab equiped coaches sold for $8.95 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and included prepainted and silk screened plastic sides, cast white metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ends, side doors, trucks and details, plus wood roof and floor. See 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> brocure at HOSeeker:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://hoseeker.org/compendium/compendiumcommuterscars1969pg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I happened to find the sides, roofs and floors for two C&NW cars, a cab 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> car and plain coach at a recent show and can scratch build new ends and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> doors if I have to, but would rather restore the cars with as much in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> original pasts as I am able to. Does here have any spare cast ends, doors 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> or truck castings, perhaps from junked cars?  There is one pristine kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> now on eBay, Item number: 320443493759, with a photograph of the parts in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320443493759&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Thanks for checking! W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Version: 8.5.424 / Virus Database: 270.14.47/2478 - Release Date: 11/03/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
07:36:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12194
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Ya'll,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well you know it had to happen, seems that our friends at Athearn aren't really our friends at all, I just got word the other day from my local dealer that he recieved a note from Athearn, aka. Horizon; that they will no longer be making parts, not only are the blue box kits going the way of the dinosaurs, but so are our parts supplies, anyone have a clue as to who the real manufacturer of Athearn's drive axle gears, (which were used in all blue box locomotives from 1983 onward), is?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12195
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I suppose those parts are sourced from the China production plants where the dies reside.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Perhaps Horizon no longer wants to have their  contractor make runs of extra parts that do not directly go into the production runs of the RTR contract batches's ???

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The approach of not making additional parts  run will always be less expensive than  actually paying to have the parts made.

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  On Nov 4, 2009, at 6:10 AM, Gary Woodard wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Ya'll,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well you know it had to happen, seems that our friends at Athearn aren't really our friends at all, I just got word the other day from my local dealer that he recieved a note from Athearn, aka. Horizon; that they will no longer be making parts, not only are the blue box kits going the way of the dinosaurs, but so are our parts supplies, anyone have a clue as to who the real manufacturer of Athearn's drive axle gears, (which were used in all blue box locomotives from 1983 onward), is?
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12196
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Holgate + Reynolds Double Deck Gallery Commuter Coaches
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Glenn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Your description of the wood parts, "--except for the roofs--they looked like they were chewed out by a bunch of trained beavers." gave me a laugh because it is so true.  There is nothing wrong with the profile as far as I can see "the trained part," but the wood grain is so pronounced as to make "the beaver" workers believable.  My first thought after examining my two roof samples which were spray can painted, was that I'd have to stop by the local model airplane shop (we still have one) and pick up a supply of wood filler.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for the offer of the SP cars, but I'll pass on them as these two C&NW's are enough to round out my vintage collection; in my regular scale modeling I concentrate on the northeast.  They will be a great find for a SP vintage modeler to put behind his Athearn FM's, though.  Those H+R cars and kits were fairly hard to find until the new Walthers models came out and many upgraded.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for the reply,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have six of the SP cars I'd like to part with--various stages of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> assembly--I also have Con-cor roofs for them--If interested contact 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> me --I'll deal on these as I have a string of the Walthers cars to go with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> my Mountain and Train Masters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The H&R kits were fairly good--except for the roofs--they looked like they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> were chewed out by a bunch of trained beavers.  gj   glenn476@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 6:44 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: [vintageHO] Holgate + Reynolds Double Deck Gallery Commuter Coaches
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Hi All:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Around 1967, the architectural modeling material firm of Holgate+Reynolds 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > began manufacturing kits for the double deck 80' commuter cars used by 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Midwest and West Coast railroads beginning as early as 1955: C&NW, RI and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > SP to name a few.  RMC had extensive and detailed plans of these and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > others in their September, 1969 issue, pages 28-33.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > The kits for both push-pull coaches and cab equiped coaches sold for $8.95 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > and included prepainted and silk screened plastic sides, cast white metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > ends, side doors, trucks and details, plus wood roof and floor. See 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > brocure at HOSeeker:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > http://hoseeker.org/compendium/compendiumcommuterscars1969pg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I happened to find the sides, roofs and floors for two C&NW cars, a cab 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > car and plain coach at a recent show and can scratch build new ends and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > doors if I have to, but would rather restore the cars with as much in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > original pasts as I am able to. Does here have any spare cast ends, doors 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > or truck castings, perhaps from junked cars?  There is one pristine kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > now on eBay, Item number: 320443493759, with a photograph of the parts in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320443493759&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Thanks for checking! W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Version: 8.5.424 / Virus Database: 270.14.47/2478 - Release Date: 11/03/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 07:36:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12197
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Holgate + Reynolds Double Deck Gallery Commuter Coaches
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Glenn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Your description of the wood parts, "--except for the roofs--they looked like they were chewed out by a bunch of trained beavers." gave me a laugh because it is so true.  There is nothing wrong with the profile as far as I can see "the trained part," but the wood grain is so pronounced as to make "the beaver" workers believable.  My first thought after examining my two roof samples which were spray can painted, was that I'd have to stop by the local model airplane shop (we still have one) and pick up a supply of wood filler.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for the offer of the SP cars, but I'll pass on them as these two C&NW's are enough to round out my vintage collection; in my regular scale modeling I concentrate on the northeast.  They will be a great find for a SP vintage modeler to put behind his Athearn FM's, though.  Those H+R cars and kits were fairly hard to find until the new Walthers models came out and many upgraded.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for the reply,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have six of the SP cars I'd like to part with--various stages of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> assembly--I also have Con-cor roofs for them--If interested contact 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> me --I'll deal on these as I have a string of the Walthers cars to go with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> my Mountain and Train Masters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The H&R kits were fairly good--except for the roofs--they looked like they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> were chewed out by a bunch of trained beavers.  gj   glenn476@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 6:44 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: [vintageHO] Holgate + Reynolds Double Deck Gallery Commuter Coaches
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Hi All:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Around 1967, the architectural modeling material firm of Holgate+Reynolds 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > began manufacturing kits for the double deck 80' commuter cars used by 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Midwest and West Coast railroads beginning as early as 1955: C&NW, RI and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > SP to name a few.  RMC had extensive and detailed plans of these and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > others in their September, 1969 issue, pages 28-33.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > The kits for both push-pull coaches and cab equiped coaches sold for $8.95 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > and included prepainted and silk screened plastic sides, cast white metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > ends, side doors, trucks and details, plus wood roof and floor. See 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > brocure at HOSeeker:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > http://hoseeker.org/compendium/compendiumcommuterscars1969pg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I happened to find the sides, roofs and floors for two C&NW cars, a cab 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > car and plain coach at a recent show and can scratch build new ends and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > doors if I have to, but would rather restore the cars with as much in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > original pasts as I am able to. Does here have any spare cast ends, doors 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > or truck castings, perhaps from junked cars?  There is one pristine kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > now on eBay, Item number: 320443493759, with a photograph of the parts in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320443493759&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Thanks for checking! W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Version: 8.5.424 / Virus Database: 270.14.47/2478 - Release Date: 11/03/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 07:36:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12198
						From: trainliker
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think it might be a little unfair to link the availability of continued spare parts production or availability with "friend" or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
On the other hand, it really isn't true that not making spare parts is always cheaper than making them.  If you can sell spare parts, it can be very profitable.  But if it is not profitable or doesn't otherwise fit within business goals - then its time to stop.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Very few places make spare parts forever.  And Irv Athearn ended the metal line at some point, right?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The lack of an original manufacturer stocking or producing spare parts does NOT mean that parts are unavailable.  You might have to find it on ebay.  Somebody else might make certain things aftermarket.  Or you might have to buy something used and mine parts from it.  The availability of Athearn "spare parts" in one way or another is very good.  (One of my cars is a Studebaker - so I'm probably qualified to talk about scarcity of spare parts!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
At any rate.  Athearn is a business, and businesses can't be successful trying to focus on every conceivable niche in the market place.  And "Vintage HO" (where blue box kits are headed) is clearly a niche.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Perhaps somebody would like to contact Athearn to see if they would be warm to the idea of selling dies and other tooling and then that somebody could find out how much it costs to produce even modest production runs, pay the overhead, stock, advertise, administrate taking orders, administrate shipping, and so forth.  I have a strong suspicion that trying to make such a business plan won't look very attractive.  But perhaps the "opportunity" is there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I suppose those parts are sourced from the China production plants  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> where the dies reside.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Perhaps Horizon no longer wants to have their  contractor make runs  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> of extra parts that do not directly go into the production runs of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the RTR contract batches's ???
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The approach of not making additional parts  run will always be less  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> expensive than  actually paying to have the parts made.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> On Nov 4, 2009, at 6:10 AM, Gary Woodard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Hi Ya'll,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Well you know it had to happen, seems that our friends at Athearn  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > aren't really our friends at all, I just got word the other day  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > from my local dealer that he recieved a note from Athearn, aka.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Horizon; that they will no longer be making parts, not only are the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > blue box kits going the way of the dinosaurs, but so are our parts  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > supplies, anyone have a clue as to who the real manufacturer of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Athearn's drive axle gears, (which were used in all blue box  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > locomotives from 1983 onward), is?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12199
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Not real surprising.  I was browsing the Athearn Parts section of Horizon recently and found that while quite a few parts are still available there were more that were either out of stock, but back orederable, and others that were out of production some of which were back orderable. Here in Sacramento where I live my local hobbly shop stock many parts so they will be available for at least some time. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I would suggest that anyone who sees a need for a particular part(s) buy them now if they are available. It doesn't hurt to have spares.  Otherwise as another poster noted parts can be had on ebay. I often see engines advertised as "for parts". Or you might have to buy an entire power truck to get the gear you want.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] More Bad News
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: all-railroads@yahoogroups.com, HOrailroading@yahoogroups.com, HOtrains@yahoogroups.com, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 4:10 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  





                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Ya'll,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well you know it had to happen, seems that our friends at Athearn aren't really our friends at all, I just got word the other day from my local dealer that he recieved a note from Athearn, aka. Horizon; that they will no longer be making parts, not only are the blue box kits going the way of the dinosaurs, but so are our parts supplies, anyone have a clue as to who the real manufacturer of Athearn's drive axle gears, (which were used in all blue box locomotives from 1983 onward), is?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 




                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12200
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Athearn diesel drive parts were great for repowering other 
locomotives.  For instance, drive parts could be used to repower the 
Athearn RDC cars and an article was written on this subject in the earlier 
years.  The results were better than the Ernst drive.  I sure have 
used the car parts a lot to kitbash cars and even industries. For instance, 
the pickle tubs can be used on and around buildings.  The crane from 
the derrick car can be used as a pillar crane.  Look at the many kitbashed 
locomotives made from Hustler shells and SW7 shells.   A whole way of 
doing things is being eradicated.  Now you have to fit in the RTR mold and 
take what is offered.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12201
						From: Askerberg
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New finds; + NYC Subway Cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for your comments.  I used to love the NJ transit meet when I
lived in the east.  If I were still there, I would be tempted to
build an O scale trolley module with the West Penn group.  My son is
still there and often takes in the meet.  Happy hunting at the
meet.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I made the mistake of dumping the whole Cary body in paint remover gel
thinking it was all cast metal.  Big mistake.  The frame to
connect the body to the Hustler is plastic as is the radiator
casting.  Fortunately, the frame did survive, but the radiator is
lost.  I might have an extra radiator from an MDC box cab.  The
K-11 needs some tweaking, but it should prove to be a winner.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
This weekend I have to travel to a 50th anniversary and miss the Dayton
show that is a good one for picking up treasures.  Rats!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for your kind words on the photos, but alas, those two were both
quick and dirty and not up to standard.  When I get them both
restored, I'll post better images.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Al

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Posted by: "Jay Wanczyk"

the_plainsman@...  
the_plainsman


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:43 am (PDT) 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  [Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included
below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Al, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Finally made time to look at your new finds this AM.  You did
well! Those Bowser K-11's are not seen too often at the shows I frequent,
and complete Cary boxcabs do not last long on the tables when they
do.  As always, your photos are great and really show the models to
their best perspective. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I had to miss one of my favorite meets last Saturday (NYSME), as it
conflicted this time with another once a year, can't miss meet, the NYC
Mass Transit Modeler's Meet at Rutgers in New Brunswick, NJ.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I was not disappointed, as I found three 30 year old cast body shells
for the 1920-22 to 1969 era NYC BMT "Standard" subway cars,
deck roof version and also a few parts for turn of the centruy to 1950
era BMT Elevated cars sold as kits in the mid 1960's.  Now I have
some more winter projects to complete as well! 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A stock photo of the BMT car shell is attached below, but it does not
show all of the fine rivet and other details. Here is a link in case
attachment does not work: 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://qcarcompany.com/listings/Part_Drawings/SB100.jpg 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  W Jay W. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  ________________________________ 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Askerberg
<aiberg@...> 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  To:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sun, October 25, 2009 11:06:20 AM 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] New finds 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have upload photos to "AL-2's photos" in the photos
section of my 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  two acquisitions at a meet yesterday. This is a nicely built, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  detailed, and painted model, but it does seem to have some continuity 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  problems. It should run fine once I get to work on it. I need to 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  change the headlight back to the stock NYC type. I believe parts are 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  still available from Bowser. I will also re letter it for the 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  NYC. I welcome any comments or hints on servicing the mechanism. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The second item is a Cary box cab on the Athearn Hustler chassis. It 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  looks like Ernst gearing was installed. It runs OK but noisily - 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  need cleaning and lubel It appears as though there might be Walters 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Goo seeping out of the ,joints on the casting. I need to strip the 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  paint and start over with the body. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am pleased with both acquisitions. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Al
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12202
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Its not just the idea of having spare parts on hand, I grew up with a father that collected antique cars, he also had so many connections in the auto parts market, he was constantly clearing out much new old stock of auto parts, and at one point, have several hundred carburator kits for Stromburg 97 carbs, while not particularly rare, today those kits would be worth a lot more than they were in the 70's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Its not so much the body shell parts that I'm after when it comes to my old Athearn's, but rather the axle gears I'm after for replacement in some of my P2k and P1k diesels, (they are the same parts, or close copies), Walthers is of no value when it comes to parts, NWSL is expensive, and its not likely that Athearn actually produced those parts on their own, as that would have added excessive cost to those $20 Athearn engines back in the day, those sets of gears had to have some other application, either in industry or domestic items requiring small gears, so therefore should be available, probably in larger quantities....:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: trainliker <ckinzer@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 12:05:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think it might be a little unfair to link the availability of continued spare parts production or availability with "friend" or not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  On the other hand, it really isn't true that not making spare parts is always cheaper than making them. If you can sell spare parts, it can be very profitable. But if it is not profitable or doesn't otherwise fit within business goals - then its time to stop.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Very few places make spare parts forever. And Irv Athearn ended the metal line at some point, right?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The lack of an original manufacturer stocking or producing spare parts does NOT mean that parts are unavailable. You might have to find it on ebay. Somebody else might make certain things aftermarket. Or you might have to buy something used and mine parts from it. The availability of Athearn "spare parts" in one way or another is very good. (One of my cars is a Studebaker - so I'm probably qualified to talk about scarcity of spare
 parts!)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  At any rate. Athearn is a business, and businesses can't be successful trying to focus on every conceivable niche in the market place. And "Vintage HO" (where blue box kits are headed) is clearly a niche.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Perhaps somebody would like to contact Athearn to see if they would be warm to the idea of selling dies and other tooling and then that somebody could find out how much it costs to produce even modest production runs, pay the overhead, stock, advertise, administrate taking orders, administrate shipping, and so forth. I have a strong suspicion that trying to make such a business plan won't look very attractive. But perhaps the "opportunity" is there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I suppose those parts are sourced from the
 China production plants 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > where the dies reside.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Perhaps Horizon no longer wants to have their contractor make runs 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of extra parts that do not directly go into the production runs of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the RTR contract batches's ???
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The approach of not making additional parts run will always be less 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > expensive than actually paying to have the parts made.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > On Nov 4, 2009, at 6:10 AM, Gary Woodard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Hi Ya'll,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Well you know it had to happen, seems that our friends at Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > aren't really our friends at all, I just got word the other day 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > from my local dealer that he recieved a note from Athearn, aka. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Horizon; that they will no longer be making parts, not only are the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > blue box
 kits going the way of the dinosaurs, but so are our parts 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > supplies, anyone have a clue as to who the real manufacturer of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Athearn's drive axle gears, (which were used in all blue box 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > locomotives from 1983 onward), is?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12203
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  As far as the axle gears go, the Proto ones are junk. My friend Bob that runs the hobby shop, bought a bunch of me to fix engines he had coming through with cracked gears.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I will look around and see if I have any more that you might be able to use, if you like.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am known for not throwing anything away around my home. As an example, I had a Lima 0-4-0 frame for two years before I found someone that needed it. Just never know when a part will be handy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 2:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  





 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Its not just the idea of having spare parts on hand, I grew up with a father that collected antique cars, he also had so many connections in the auto parts market, he was constantly clearing out much new old stock of auto parts, and at one point, have several hundred carburator kits for Stromburg 97 carbs, while not particularly rare, today those kits would be worth a lot more than they were in the 70's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Its not so much the body shell parts that I'm after when it comes to my old Athearn's, but rather the axle gears I'm after for replacement in some of my P2k and P1k diesels, (they are the same parts, or close copies), Walthers is of no value when it comes to parts, NWSL is expensive, and its not likely that Athearn actually produced those parts on their own, as that would have added excessive cost to those $20 Athearn engines back in the day, those sets of gears had to have some other application, either in industry or domestic items requiring small gears, so therefore should be available, probably in larger quantities.. ..:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: trainliker <ckinzer@att. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 12:05:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think it might be a little unfair to link the availability of continued spare parts production or availability with "friend" or not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  On the other hand, it really isn't true that not making spare parts is always cheaper than making them. If you can sell spare parts, it can be very profitable. But if it is not profitable or doesn't otherwise fit within business goals - then its time to stop.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Very few places make spare parts forever. And Irv Athearn ended the metal line at some point, right?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The lack of an original manufacturer stocking or producing spare parts does NOT mean that parts are unavailable. You might have to find it on ebay. Somebody else might make certain things aftermarket. Or you might have to buy something used and mine parts from it. The availability of Athearn "spare parts" in one way or another is very good. (One of my cars is a Studebaker - so I'm probably qualified to talk about scarcity of spare
 parts!)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  At any rate. Athearn is a business, and businesses can't be successful trying to focus on every conceivable niche in the market place. And "Vintage HO" (where blue box kits are headed) is clearly a niche.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Perhaps somebody would like to contact Athearn to see if they would be warm to the idea of selling dies and other tooling and then that somebody could find out how much it costs to produce even modest production runs, pay the overhead, stock, advertise, administrate taking orders, administrate shipping, and so forth. I have a strong suspicion that trying to make such a business plan won't look very attractive. But perhaps the "opportunity" is there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I suppose those parts are
 sourced from the
 China production plants 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > where the dies reside.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Perhaps Horizon no longer wants to have their contractor make runs 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of extra parts that do not directly go into the production runs of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the RTR contract batches's ???
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The approach of not making additional parts run will always be less 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > expensive than actually paying to have the parts made.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > On Nov 4, 2009, at 6:10 AM, Gary Woodard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Hi Ya'll,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Well you know it had to happen, seems that our friends at Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > aren't really our friends at all, I just got word the other day 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > from my local dealer that he recieved a note from Athearn, aka. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Horizon; that they will no longer be making parts, not only are the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > blue box
 kits going the way of the dinosaurs, but so are our parts 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > supplies, anyone have a clue as to who the real manufacturer of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Athearn's drive axle gears, (which were used in all blue box 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > locomotives from 1983 onward), is?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     



 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12204
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Its not so much that the gears themselves are junk, the axle inserts off the P2k wheels are just enough bigger that they tend split the gears, the gear is the same basic part that is or was used in Athearn engines, I have no doubt that most of the truck gears in Athearn and LL trucks are the same parts, probably from the same manufacturer....:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 3:42:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
As far as the axle gears go, the Proto ones are junk. My friend Bob that runs the hobby shop, bought a bunch of me to fix engines he had coming through with cracked gears.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I will look around and see if I have any more that you might be able to use, if you like.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am known for not throwing anything away around my home. As an example, I had a Lima 0-4-0 frame for two years before I found someone that needed it. Just never know when a part will be handy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 2:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Its not just the idea of having spare parts on hand, I grew up with a father that collected antique cars, he also had so many connections in the auto parts market, he was constantly clearing out much new old stock of auto parts, and at one point, have several hundred carburator kits for Stromburg 97 carbs, while not particularly rare, today those kits would be worth a lot more than they were in the 70's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Its not so much the body shell parts that I'm after when it comes to my old Athearn's, but rather the axle gears I'm after for replacement in some of my P2k and P1k diesels, (they are the same parts, or close copies), Walthers is of no value when it comes to parts, NWSL is expensive, and its not likely that Athearn actually produced those parts on their own, as that would have added excessive cost to those $20 Athearn engines back in the day, those sets of gears had to have some other application, either in industry or domestic items requiring small gears, so therefore should be available, probably in larger quantities.. ..:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: trainliker <ckinzer@att. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 12:05:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think it might be a little unfair to link the availability of continued spare parts production or availability with "friend" or not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  On the other hand, it really isn't true that not making spare parts is always cheaper than making them. If you can sell spare parts, it can be very profitable. But if it is not profitable or doesn't otherwise fit within business goals - then its time to stop.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Very few places make spare parts forever. And Irv Athearn ended the metal line at some point, right?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The lack of an original manufacturer stocking or producing spare parts does NOT mean that parts are unavailable. You might have to find it on ebay. Somebody else might make certain things aftermarket. Or you might have to buy something used and mine parts from it. The availability of Athearn "spare parts" in one way or another is very good. (One of my cars is a Studebaker - so I'm probably qualified to talk about scarcity of spare
 parts!)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  At any rate. Athearn is a business, and businesses can't be successful trying to focus on every conceivable niche in the market place. And "Vintage HO" (where blue box kits are headed) is clearly a niche.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Perhaps somebody would like to contact Athearn to see if they would be warm to the idea of selling dies and other tooling and then that somebody could find out how much it costs to produce even modest production runs, pay the overhead, stock, advertise, administrate taking orders, administrate shipping, and so forth. I have a strong suspicion that trying to make such a business plan won't look very attractive. But perhaps the "opportunity" is there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I suppose those parts are sourced from the China production plants 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > where the dies reside.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Perhaps Horizon no longer
 wants to have their contractor make runs 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of extra parts that do not directly go into the production runs of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the RTR contract batches's ???
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The approach of not making additional parts run will always be less 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > expensive than actually paying to have the parts made.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > On Nov 4, 2009, at 6:10 AM, Gary Woodard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Hi Ya'll,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Well you know it had to happen, seems that our friends at Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > aren't really our friends at all, I just got word the other day 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > from my local dealer that he recieved a note from Athearn, aka. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Horizon; that they will no longer be making parts, not only are the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > blue box kits going the way of the dinosaurs, but so are our parts 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > supplies, anyone have a clue
 as to who the real manufacturer of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Athearn's drive axle gears, (which were used in all blue box 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > locomotives from 1983 onward), is?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >



                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12205
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think you might be right about that, but I think at one point, the compsition of the P2K gears' plastic was slightly different.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In any event, back on the topic, it does not surprise me that Athearn is discontinuing parts. I once told one of their reps at TrainFest in Milwaukee, that Athearn was the best thing for the hobby at one point. When I was young I could buy a car for a few bucks, and now with the RTR stuff, that isn't doable for the young generation now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I look at it like this: I am not good at working with plastic. With wood and card I can make anything I want, but if I were to kitbash a plastic model, I would want to spend as little as possible. Athearn and others make this a little harder now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am disappointed they are discontinuing parts, but I am not surprised. The hobby has been headed this way for a while now. We are in an
 era of instant gratification. In all aspects of life. I feel it is pretty safe to say that most members of this group don't mind spending a few days working on a single car, as it was decades ago. We are a dying breed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  However, discontinued parts is nothing new to me. Many of my cars use Varney high-center trucks. Try finding THAT at the hobby shop now! But, I and I imagine others, make do and get parts somehow. Comes back to what I said about never tossing anything. Never know if I or someone else will need it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I could write about this all day, but I nicked my finger working on a wooden car earlier (Now I have nicks on both hands, from the same project!), and it hurts to type, so I will wrap this up.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Gary Woodard
 <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 2:50 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  





 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Its not so much that the gears themselves are junk, the axle inserts off the P2k wheels are just enough bigger that they tend split the gears, the gear is the same basic part that is or was used in Athearn engines, I have no doubt that most of the truck gears in Athearn and LL trucks are the same parts, probably from the same manufacturer. ...:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 3:42:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
As far as the axle gears go, the Proto ones are junk. My friend Bob that runs the hobby shop, bought a bunch of me to fix engines he had coming through with cracked gears.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I will look around and see if I have any more that you might be able to use, if you like.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am known for not throwing anything away around my home. As an example, I had a Lima 0-4-0 frame for two years before I found someone that needed it. Just never know when a part will be handy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 2:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Its not just the idea of having spare parts on hand, I grew up with a father that collected antique cars, he also had so many connections in the auto parts market, he was constantly clearing out much new old stock of auto parts, and at one point, have several hundred carburator kits for Stromburg 97 carbs, while not particularly rare, today those kits would be worth a lot more than they were in the 70's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Its not so much the body shell parts that I'm after when it comes to my old Athearn's, but rather the axle gears I'm after for replacement in some of my P2k and P1k diesels, (they are the same parts, or close copies), Walthers is of no value when it comes to parts, NWSL is expensive, and its not likely that Athearn actually produced those parts on their own, as that would have added excessive cost to those $20 Athearn engines back in the day, those sets of gears had to have some other application, either in industry or domestic items requiring small gears, so therefore should be available, probably in larger quantities.. ..:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: trainliker <ckinzer@att. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 12:05:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think it might be a little unfair to link the availability of continued spare parts production or availability with "friend" or not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  On the other hand, it really isn't true that not making spare parts is always cheaper than making them. If you can sell spare parts, it can be very profitable. But if it is not profitable or doesn't otherwise fit within business goals - then its time to stop.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Very few places make spare parts forever. And Irv Athearn ended the metal line at some point, right?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The lack of an original manufacturer stocking or producing spare parts does NOT mean that parts are unavailable. You might have to find it on ebay. Somebody else might make certain things aftermarket. Or you might have to buy something used and mine parts from it. The availability of Athearn "spare parts" in one way or another is very good. (One of my cars is a Studebaker - so I'm probably qualified to talk about scarcity of spare
 parts!)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  At any rate. Athearn is a business, and businesses can't be successful trying to focus on every conceivable niche in the market place. And "Vintage HO" (where blue box kits are headed) is clearly a niche.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Perhaps somebody would like to contact Athearn to see if they would be warm to the idea of selling dies and other tooling and then that somebody could find out how much it costs to produce even modest production runs, pay the overhead, stock, advertise, administrate taking orders, administrate shipping, and so forth. I have a strong suspicion that trying to make such a business plan won't look very attractive. But perhaps the "opportunity" is there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I suppose those parts are sourced from the China production plants 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > where the dies reside.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Perhaps Horizon no longer
 wants to have their contractor make runs 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of extra parts that do not directly go into the production runs of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the RTR contract batches's ???
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The approach of not making additional parts run will always be less 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > expensive than actually paying to have the parts made.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > On Nov 4, 2009, at 6:10 AM, Gary Woodard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Hi Ya'll,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Well you know it had to happen, seems that our friends at Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > aren't really our friends at all, I just got word the other day 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > from my local dealer that he recieved a note from Athearn, aka. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Horizon; that they will no longer be making parts, not only are the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > blue box kits going the way of the dinosaurs, but so are our parts 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > supplies, anyone have a clue
 as to who the real manufacturer of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Athearn's drive axle gears, (which were used in all blue box 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > locomotives from 1983 onward), is?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >



                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     



 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12206
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't doubt that the P2k gear is probably a commie copy of the older Athearn part, Athearn parts do work in P2k trucks however, since the P2k gears tend to split, (could be because its a different composition), Walthers doesn't want to honor the warranty they bought when they bought LL, I guess I can buy up as many old Athearn junk engines as I can find for parts salvage!!!:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 4:56:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I think you might be right about that, but I think at one point, the compsition of the P2K gears' plastic was slightly different.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In any event, back on the topic, it does not surprise me that Athearn is discontinuing parts. I once told one of their reps at TrainFest in Milwaukee, that Athearn was the best thing for the hobby at one point. When I was young I could buy a car for a few bucks, and now with the RTR stuff, that isn't doable for the young generation now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I look at it like this: I am not good at working with plastic. With wood and card I can make anything I want, but if I were to kitbash a plastic model, I would want to spend as little as possible. Athearn and others make this a little harder now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am disappointed they are discontinuing parts, but I am not surprised. The hobby has been headed this way for a while now. We are in an era of instant gratification. In all aspects of life. I feel it is pretty safe
 to say that most members of this group don't mind spending a few days working on a single car, as it was decades ago. We are a dying breed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  However, discontinued parts is nothing new to me. Many of my cars use Varney high-center trucks. Try finding THAT at the hobby shop now! But, I and I imagine others, make do and get parts somehow. Comes back to what I said about never tossing anything. Never know if I or someone else will need it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I could write about this all day, but I nicked my finger working on a wooden car earlier (Now I have nicks on both hands, from the same project!), and it hurts to type, so I will wrap this up.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 2:50 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Its not so much that the gears themselves are junk, the axle inserts off the P2k wheels are just enough bigger that they tend split the gears, the gear is the same basic part that is or was used in Athearn engines, I have no doubt that most of the truck gears in Athearn and LL trucks are the same parts, probably from the same manufacturer. ...:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 3:42:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
As far as the axle gears go, the Proto ones are junk. My friend Bob that runs the hobby shop, bought a bunch of me to fix engines he had coming through with cracked gears.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I will look around and see if I have any more that you might be able to use, if you like.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am known for not throwing anything away around my home. As an example, I had a Lima 0-4-0 frame for two years before I found someone that needed it. Just never know when a part will be handy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 2:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Its not just the idea of having spare parts on hand, I grew up with a father that collected antique cars, he also had so many connections in the auto parts market, he was constantly clearing out much new old stock of auto parts, and at one point, have several hundred carburator kits for Stromburg 97 carbs, while not particularly rare, today those kits would be worth a lot more than they were in the 70's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Its not so much the body shell parts that I'm after when it comes to my old Athearn's, but rather the axle gears I'm after for replacement in some of my P2k and P1k diesels, (they are the same parts, or close copies), Walthers is of no value when it comes to parts, NWSL is expensive, and its not likely that Athearn actually produced those parts on their own, as that would have added excessive cost to those $20 Athearn engines back in the day, those sets of gears had to have some other application, either in industry or domestic items requiring small gears, so therefore should be available, probably in larger quantities.. ..:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: trainliker <ckinzer@att. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 12:05:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think it might be a little unfair to link the availability of continued spare parts production or availability with "friend" or not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  On the other hand, it really isn't true that not making spare parts is always cheaper than making them. If you can sell spare parts, it can be very profitable. But if it is not profitable or doesn't otherwise fit within business goals - then its time to stop.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Very few places make spare parts forever. And Irv Athearn ended the metal line at some point, right?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The lack of an original manufacturer stocking or producing spare parts does NOT mean that parts are unavailable. You might have to find it on ebay. Somebody else might make certain things aftermarket. Or you might have to buy something used and mine parts from it. The availability of Athearn "spare parts" in one way or another is very good. (One of my cars is a Studebaker - so I'm probably qualified to talk about scarcity of spare
 parts!)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  At any rate. Athearn is a business, and businesses can't be successful trying to focus on every conceivable niche in the market place. And "Vintage HO" (where blue box kits are headed) is clearly a niche.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Perhaps somebody would like to contact Athearn to see if they would be warm to the idea of selling dies and other tooling and then that somebody could find out how much it costs to produce even modest production runs, pay the overhead, stock, advertise, administrate taking orders, administrate shipping, and so forth. I have a strong suspicion that trying to make such a business plan won't look very attractive. But perhaps the "opportunity" is there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Kinzer

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@ ...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I suppose those parts are sourced from the China production plants 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > where the dies reside.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Perhaps Horizon no longer
 wants to have their contractor make runs 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of extra parts that do not directly go into the production runs of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the RTR contract batches's ???
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The approach of not making additional parts run will always be less 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > expensive than actually paying to have the parts made.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > On Nov 4, 2009, at 6:10 AM, Gary Woodard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Hi Ya'll,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Well you know it had to happen, seems that our friends at Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > aren't really our friends at all, I just got word the other day 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > from my local dealer that he recieved a note from Athearn, aka. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Horizon; that they will no longer be making parts, not only are the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > blue box kits going the way of the dinosaurs, but so are our parts 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > supplies, anyone have a clue
 as to who the real manufacturer of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Athearn's drive axle gears, (which were used in all blue box 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > locomotives from 1983 onward), is?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12207
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Are you aware that Walthers still offers replacement gears for the Life Like-
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
era 4 wheel trucked locos?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
It is part # 922-584408, $3.00 for 2 axles (it takes 2 sets, i.e. $6.00 to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
do a complete gear set replacement for one loco).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
These gears will also fit the older (pre-Horizon) MDC/Roundhouse RS-2 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
loco which was also prone to splitting its axle gears.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Most of the gear sets will also fit most P1K locos, including the early-run
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
F3s and the DL-109s, but they will not fit any of the E-units. (Es never had
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
a gear splitting problem anyway).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Telecon last week with Walthers Parts guy revealed that another 5000 gear
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
sets are on order from China, so the replacement program is still alive
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and well for the other locos. The newer F-7s have a new gear set, so these
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
gears will not fit them (according to Walthers).He went on to say that until
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the entire line of pre-Walthers (i.e. the old Life Like) line of locos is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
completely redesigned (as with the newer F-7s), replacement gear sets
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
will continue to be available at cost. The $3 cost of the current new gears
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
is a nominal cost mostly for Walthers to pay the Chinese for the materials
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and shipping, and that Walthers makes no money on these at all (no profit).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The idea of supplying new gears (at small cost) is the best they could do
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to support the original Life Like Warranty, since the old gears were the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
weak-link in the P2K loco line and was far cheaper than replacing an entire
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
loco, which would have been impossible, impractical and overly expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and would have resulted in the closure and discontinuance of the entire P2K
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
line (which Walthers couldn't afford either, since they had invested heavily
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
into it at the time they purchased it from LL).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave F
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12208
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Since I tend to buy these things long after they are out of production, (for financial reasons of course), I would like to know who really manufactures the gears, especially the old Athearn gears, $3 for a pair of gears isn't cheap, not those delren gears anyway, if I knew what other applications those same gears used, such as in appliances, DVD players, computer drives or what have you, then I could find out where to order the gears from, and would of course, have to order a whole case of gears, (which would be about 5000 gears), but $3 for a pair, and no wheelsets included? I can promise you, Walthers is making money on those, lets not kid ourselves, if they are going to continue with that, its more cost effective to just completely regear with either Ernst or Northwest Shortline!!!!:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 6:39:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Are you aware that Walthers still offers replacement gears for the Life Like-
                                                                                                                                                                                                  era 4 wheel trucked locos?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It is part # 922-584408, $3.00 for 2 axles (it takes 2 sets, i.e. $6.00 to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  do a complete gear set replacement for one loco).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  These gears will also fit the older (pre-Horizon) MDC/Roundhouse RS-2 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  loco which was also prone to splitting its axle gears.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Most of the gear sets will also fit most P1K locos, including the early-run
                                                                                                                                                                                                  F3s and the DL-109s, but they will not fit any of the E-units. (Es never had
                                                                                                                                                                                                  a gear splitting problem anyway).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Telecon last week with Walthers Parts guy revealed that another 5000 gear
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sets are on order from China, so the replacement program is still alive
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and well for the other locos. The newer F-7s have a new gear set, so these
                                                                                                                                                                                                  gears will not fit them (according to Walthers).He went
 on to say that until
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the entire line of pre-Walthers (i.e. the old Life Like) line of locos is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  completely redesigned (as with the newer F-7s), replacement gear sets
                                                                                                                                                                                                  will continue to be available at cost. The $3 cost of the current new gears
                                                                                                                                                                                                  is a nominal cost mostly for Walthers to pay the Chinese for the materials
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and shipping, and that Walthers makes no money on these at all (no profit).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The idea of supplying new gears (at small cost) is the best they could do
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to support the original Life Like Warranty, since the old gears were the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  weak-link in the P2K loco line and was far cheaper than replacing an entire
                                                                                                                                                                                                  loco, which would have been impossible, impractical and overly expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and would have resulted in the closure and discontinuance of the entire P2K
                                                                                                                                                                                                  line (which Walthers couldn't afford either, since they had invested heavily
                                                                                                                                                                                                  into it at the time they purchased it from LL).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave
 F

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12209
						From: texpearson@AOL.com
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Replacement Gears for LL locomotives
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Since my units didn't qualify for the warranty, I just ask my local hobby 
shop to order Athearn PN 60024.  $2,25 for a bag ( either 6 or 8 
pieces)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Tom in Texas
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12210
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I work extensively with computers (Hardware repair), and consumer electronics repair to a lesser extent, and have never seen anything like Athearn geared axles anywhere else.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Although, as computer drives use 12VDC power (As well as a secondary 5VDC bus), I have used older AT type power supplies (Which had a hardwired on/off power switch) to power accessories on my layout. These power supplies were phased out in the mid-90s, but are common as crabgrass. Newer ATX type, use a software switch through the computer motherboard, so are not suitable for layout power.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Plus, I have used motors out of old PC fans and drives to power accessories.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  But, anymore, I am focusing on building a layout with technology that would have been available in the 1940s or thereabouts, so I am not as into using old computer parts to build a layout as I used to
 be.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  On topic: Does this all mean Athearn will also discontinue their 2 and 3 axle passenger coach trucks? With minor trimming to the kingpin, I have used them on a lot of restoration projects to get cars rolling.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 7:15 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  





 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Since I tend to buy these things long after they are out of production, (for financial reasons of course), I would like to know who really manufactures the gears, especially the old Athearn gears, $3 for a pair of gears isn't cheap, not those delren gears anyway, if I knew what other applications those same gears used, such as in appliances, DVD players, computer drives or what have you, then I could find out where to order the gears from, and would of course, have to order a whole case of gears, (which would be about 5000 gears), but $3 for a pair, and no wheelsets included? I can promise you, Walthers is making money on those, lets not kid ourselves, if they are going to continue with that, its more cost effective to just completely regear with either Ernst or Northwest Shortline!!! !:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "WK2SHR@aol. com" <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 6:39:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Are you aware that Walthers still offers replacement gears for the Life Like-
                                                                                                                                                                                                  era 4 wheel trucked locos?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It is part # 922-584408, $3.00 for 2 axles (it takes 2 sets, i.e. $6.00 to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  do a complete gear set replacement for one loco).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  These gears will also fit the older (pre-Horizon) MDC/Roundhouse RS-2 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  loco which was also prone to splitting its axle gears.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Most of the gear sets will also fit most P1K locos, including the early-run
                                                                                                                                                                                                  F3s and the DL-109s, but they will not fit any of the E-units. (Es never had
                                                                                                                                                                                                  a gear splitting problem anyway).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Telecon last week with Walthers Parts guy revealed that another 5000 gear
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sets are on order from China, so the replacement program is still alive
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and well for the other locos. The newer F-7s have a new gear set, so these
                                                                                                                                                                                                  gears will not fit them (according to Walthers).He
 went
 on to say that until
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the entire line of pre-Walthers (i.e. the old Life Like) line of locos is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  completely redesigned (as with the newer F-7s), replacement gear sets
                                                                                                                                                                                                  will continue to be available at cost. The $3 cost of the current new gears
                                                                                                                                                                                                  is a nominal cost mostly for Walthers to pay the Chinese for the materials
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and shipping, and that Walthers makes no money on these at all (no profit).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The idea of supplying new gears (at small cost) is the best they could do
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to support the original Life Like Warranty, since the old gears were the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  weak-link in the P2K loco line and was far cheaper than replacing an entire
                                                                                                                                                                                                  loco, which would have been impossible, impractical and overly expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and would have resulted in the closure and discontinuance of the entire P2K
                                                                                                                                                                                                  line (which Walthers couldn't afford either, since they had invested heavily
                                                                                                                                                                                                  into it at the time they purchased it from LL).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave
 F

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     



 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12211
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Agree in principle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The Walthers gear sets DO includes wheel sets. They come complete for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
drop-in replacement installation which takes about 2 minutes per loco truck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
FYI, I often order small stuff from the Walthers flyers......diaphrams,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
freight car trucks, and whatever else is on sale that is affordable (i.e. "cheap").
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Along with my orders, I ALWAYS include an order for 2 or 3 gear sets. While
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
they are a bit expensive, ordering a few at a time builds stock, and keeps
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
me supplied.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Also note that I sell a lot of P1K and P2K locos every now and then. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
always make it a point to put in NEW gear sets before I sell an engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Again, it helps to have "bench stock" on hand......
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12212
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I would presume the Chinks are making the gears these days for Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Never had a problem with Athearn's gear sets. Problems with locos that
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have had are as follows:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
a. Bachmann............this stuff is 100% crap, even their high-end stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
b. Life Like.............P1K stuff is so-so, not great, and generally low-end;
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                 P2K is "OK", but not great. E-unit frames have a bad
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                 habit of suffering from LEAD ROT and crystalizing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                 (crumbling) with time, much as the old Varney diesels
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                 frames did.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
c. MRC .................Poor quality motors....motor brushes are too soft. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                These locos break down in a week of use!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best engines:             Atlas, Stewart, good old Athearn RTR. I have Genises,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                 but not impressed. Good cheap engines with 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                 nice performance and reliability: IHC steamers. Old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                 engines that are very good: old Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12213
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  You left out the old AHM/Rivarossi steam engines, granted some were crap, but for the most part, performed well for what they were, switch that old 3 pole motor for a decent Canon can motor, (yes, the same motor that has been used in some of Canon's copiers), and they run real sweet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don't forget Bowser, now theres a solid engine, too bad that Mr. English can't see his way to keeping the steam program alive, if ya know what I mean!!!!:o(
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thu, November 5, 2009 12:13:18 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I would presume the Chinks are making the gears these days for Athearn.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Never had a problem with Athearn's gear sets. Problems with locos that
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have had are as follows:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  a. Bachmann.... ........this stuff is 100% crap, even their high-end stuff.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  b. Life Like........ .....P1K stuff is so-so, not great, and generally low-end;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   P2K is "OK", but not great. E-unit frames have a bad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   habit of suffering from LEAD ROT and
 crystalizing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   (crumbling) with time, much as the old Varney diesels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   frames did.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  c. MRC ............ .....Poor quality motors....motor brushes are too soft. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  These locos break down in a week of use!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best engines:             Atlas, Stewart, good old Athearn RTR. I have
 Genises,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   but not impressed. Good cheap engines with 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   nice performance and reliability: IHC steamers. Old
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   engines that are very good: old Mantua.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12214
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm sorry, I thought they were only selling two gears per package, with wheelsets that isn't a bad deal then, yes I would go for that, however, if they are going to break again, I would just as soon have Athearn!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thu, November 5, 2009 12:06:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Agree in principle.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The Walthers gear sets DO includes wheel sets. They come complete for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                  drop-in replacement installation which takes about 2 minutes per loco truck.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  FYI, I often order small stuff from the Walthers flyers...... diaphrams,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  freight car trucks, and whatever else is on sale that is affordable (i.e. "cheap").
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Along with my orders, I ALWAYS include an order for 2 or 3 gear sets. While
                                                                                                                                                                                                  they are a bit expensive, ordering a few at a time builds stock, and keeps
                                                                                                                                                                                                  me supplied.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Also note that I sell a lot of P1K and P2K locos every now and then. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  always make it a point to put in NEW gear sets before I sell an engine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Again, it helps to have "bench stock" on hand......

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12215
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/4/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I understand that, and with the way technology is moving along, I wouldn't be surprised that the model railroad industry would be the only ones left using those gears, years ago, printers, and some scanners would have a lot of gears in them, not to mention the old 5.5 inch and 1.5 in floppies from years gone by, they may never have been used in the computer or high tech industry at all as well, but small appliances, tape decks, stuff that was still very common at the time Athearn started switching their entire line of locos over in the early 80's............:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 10:56:45 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I work extensively with computers (Hardware repair), and consumer electronics repair to a lesser extent, and have never seen anything like Athearn geared axles anywhere else.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Although, as computer drives use 12VDC power (As well as a secondary 5VDC bus), I have used older AT type power supplies (Which had a hardwired on/off power switch) to power accessories on my layout. These power supplies were phased out in the mid-90s, but are common as crabgrass. Newer ATX type, use a software switch through the computer motherboard, so are not suitable for layout power.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Plus, I have used motors out of old PC fans and drives to power accessories.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  But, anymore, I am focusing on building a layout with technology that would have been available in the 1940s or thereabouts, so I am not as into using old computer parts to build a layout as I used to be.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  On topic: Does this all mean Athearn will also discontinue their 2 and 3
 axle passenger coach trucks? With minor trimming to the kingpin, I have used them on a lot of restoration projects to get cars rolling.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 7:15 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Since I tend to buy these things long after they are out of production, (for financial reasons of course), I would like to know who really manufactures the gears, especially the old Athearn gears, $3 for a pair of gears isn't cheap, not those delren gears anyway, if I knew what other applications those same gears used, such as in appliances, DVD players, computer drives or what have you, then I could find out where to order the gears from, and would of course, have to order a whole case of gears, (which would be about 5000 gears), but $3 for a pair, and no wheelsets included? I can promise you, Walthers is making money on those, lets not kid ourselves, if they are going to continue with that, its more cost effective to just completely regear with either Ernst or Northwest Shortline!!! !:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "WK2SHR@aol. com" <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 6:39:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Are you aware that Walthers still offers replacement gears for the Life Like-
                                                                                                                                                                                                  era 4 wheel trucked locos?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It is part # 922-584408, $3.00 for 2 axles (it takes 2 sets, i.e. $6.00 to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  do a complete gear set replacement for one loco).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  These gears will also fit the older (pre-Horizon) MDC/Roundhouse RS-2 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  loco which was also prone to splitting its axle gears.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Most of the gear sets will also fit most P1K locos, including the early-run
                                                                                                                                                                                                  F3s and the DL-109s, but they will not fit any of the E-units. (Es never had
                                                                                                                                                                                                  a gear splitting problem anyway).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Telecon last week with Walthers Parts guy revealed that another 5000 gear
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sets are on order from China, so the replacement program is still alive
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and well for the other locos. The newer F-7s have a new gear set, so these
                                                                                                                                                                                                  gears will not fit them (according to Walthers).He went
 on to say that until
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the entire line of pre-Walthers (i.e. the old Life Like) line of locos is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  completely redesigned (as with the newer F-7s), replacement gear sets
                                                                                                                                                                                                  will continue to be available at cost. The $3 cost of the current new gears
                                                                                                                                                                                                  is a nominal cost mostly for Walthers to pay the Chinese for the materials
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and shipping, and that Walthers makes no money on these at all (no profit).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The idea of supplying new gears (at small cost) is the best they could do
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to support the original Life Like Warranty, since the old gears were the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  weak-link in the P2K loco line and was far cheaper than replacing an entire
                                                                                                                                                                                                  loco, which would have been impossible, impractical and overly expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and would have resulted in the closure and discontinuance of the entire P2K
                                                                                                                                                                                                  line (which Walthers couldn't afford either, since they had invested heavily
                                                                                                                                                                                                  into it at the time they purchased it from LL).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave
 F


                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12216
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 11/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 

Gary:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I would presume the Chinks are 
  making the gears these days for Athearn.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Never had a problem with 
  Athearn's gear sets. Problems with locos that
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have had are as 
  follows:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  a. Bachmann............this stuff is 100% crap, even their 
  high-end stuff.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  b. Life Like.............P1K stuff is so-so, not great, 
  and generally 
  low-end;
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  P2K is "OK", but not great. E-unit frames have a 
  bad
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  habit of suffering from LEAD ROT and 
  crystalizing
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  (crumbling) with time, much as the old Varney 
  diesels
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  frames did.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  c. MRC .................Poor quality motors....motor 
  brushes are too soft. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  These locos break down in a week of use!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best 
  engines:             
  Atlas, Stewart, good old Athearn RTR. I have 
  Genises,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  but not impressed. Good cheap engines with 
  100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  nice performance and reliability: IHC steamers. 
  Old
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  engines that are very good: old Mantua.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.5.424 / Virus Database: 270.14.50/2481 - Release 
  Date: 11/04/09 19:51:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12217
						From: Mike Sloane
						Date: 11/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Actually, Gary, in an operation the size of Walthers, it probably costs 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
them as much to pick from inventory, package, invoice, and ship a $3 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
gear as a $200 locomotive. I suspect that they make no profit on those 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
gears. (I ordered some, and they came packed in a shoe box size carton 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
with lots of packing materials - something that could have been slipped 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
inside a cheap padded envelope just as easily.) I am not justifying 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
their outrageous price for something that probably cost them around a $1 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
per hundred to buy. That is what the economists call the "dis-economies 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
of scale" - when you get so big that your size begins to hurt your 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
efficiency. A small time operator without all the overhead could 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
probably sell the same gears for a fraction of what Walthers charges and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
make a small profit. (But a large outfit isn't happy with a small profit 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
- they want big profits.) On the other hand, you have to ask yourself 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"what is the market for those gears, and how to you reach the potential 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
customers?" The internet has made it easier to have a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
national/international presence, of course, but it would still be an 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
uphill push to make a go of something like that. I can't tell you how 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
many business ventures have failed because the owner's failed to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
understand stuff like that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gary Woodard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Since I tend to buy these things long after they are out of production, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> (for financial reasons of course), I would like to know who really 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> manufactures the gears, especially the old Athearn gears, $3 for a pair 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> of gears isn't cheap, not those delren gears anyway, if I knew what 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> other applications those same gears used, such as in appliances, DVD 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> players, computer drives or what have you, then I could find out where 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> to order the gears from, and would of course, have to order a whole case 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> of gears, (which would be about 5000 gears), but $3 for a pair, and no 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> wheelsets included? I can promise you, Walthers is making money on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> those, lets not kid ourselves, if they are going to continue with that, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> its more cost effective to just completely regear with either Ernst or 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Northwest Shortline!!!!:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gary W 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12218
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 11/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Glenn J., That is a good point.  I first learned of the reason why those P2K gears split, and of other firm's manufacturing defects from NWSL's informative catalog/handbook.  The same problem seems to affect the first runs of (twin motor) Bachman 44 tonners and even many of the Japanese brass diesels, too.  That would be a good subject of a major feature article in Model Railroader, but doubt they would print it, save for a small mention in the "kinks" type column. LOL!  W. Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> There is a problem with the gears that has been identified, but the manufacturers don't seem to want to recognize it.  NWSL pointed it out at least 30 years ago--Delrin and some of the other plastics used for gears and such have a tendency to shrink as they age.  This apparently happens in the first month or so after molding.  If the gear (or coupling, etc) tries to shrink down over a steel axle, something has to give.  I encountered this on a pair of O Scale ALCo RS-3's by Weaver.  Ultimately all of the axle gears and several drive sprockets on two units split.  Weaver sent me replacements--which I let age before reaming them to a one or two thousandths press fit-no more trouble.  Had same problem with some Kumata diesels and electrics in HO.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> What these manufacturers need to do is mold up a few hundred thousand of the gears before anything else--and let them age a month or so.  If they standardize the gears, they can always be one or two locos ahead.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   From: WK2SHR@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 9:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Gary:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   I would presume the Chinks are making the gears these days for Athearn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Never had a problem with Athearn's gear sets. Problems with locos that
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   I have had are as follows:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   a. Bachmann............this stuff is 100% crap, even their high-end stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   b. Life Like.............P1K stuff is so-so, not great, and generally low-end;
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                    P2K is "OK", but not great. E-unit frames have a bad
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                    habit of suffering from LEAD ROT and crystalizing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                    (crumbling) with time, much as the old Varney diesels
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                    frames did.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   c. MRC .................Poor quality motors....motor brushes are too soft. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                   These locos break down in a week of use!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Best engines:             Atlas, Stewart, good old Athearn RTR. I have Genises,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                    but not impressed. Good cheap engines with 100%
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                    nice performance and reliability: IHC steamers. Old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                    engines that are very good: old Mantua.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Version: 8.5.424 / Virus Database: 270.14.50/2481 - Release Date: 11/04/09 19:51:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12219
						From: Bill Nielsen
						Date: 11/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Athearn's website still lists locomotive wheels, item #40028(40") & #40029 (42"), but at a price of $11+ for a listed quantity of one! Are they kidding? Check out the link if you don't believe it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
<http://www.athearn.com/Products/Parts/Default.aspx>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I guess it's a good thing Irv is already dead, because if he could see what they are doing with the company that bears his name, it would likely KILL him!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Bill
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I'm sorry, I thought they were only selling two gears per package, with wheelsets that isn't a bad deal then, yes I would go for that, however, if they are going to break again, I would just as soon have Athearn!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Â Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12220
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  No question that it all costs them the same for one as the other, however, the way Dave described it, I thought he was just saying there were two gears per package, but made it clear that those gears do include the wheelsets, that makes it a little more acceptable..........:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thu, November 5, 2009 7:03:38 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Actually, Gary, in an operation the size of Walthers, it probably costs 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  them as much to pick from inventory, package, invoice, and ship a $3 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  gear as a $200 locomotive. I suspect that they make no profit on those 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  gears. (I ordered some, and they came packed in a shoe box size carton 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  with lots of packing materials - something that could have been slipped 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  inside a cheap padded envelope just as easily.) I am not justifying 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  their outrageous price for something that probably cost them around a $1 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  per hundred to buy. That is what the economists call the "dis-economies 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  of scale" - when you get so big that your size begins to hurt your 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  efficiency. A small time operator without all the overhead could 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  probably sell the same gears for a fraction of what Walthers charges and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  make a small profit. (But a large outfit isn't happy with a small profit 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  - they want big profits.) On the other hand, you have to ask yourself
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  "what is the market for those gears, and how to you reach the potential 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  customers?" The internet has made it easier to have a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  national/internatio nal presence, of course, but it would still be an 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  uphill push to make a go of something like that. I can't tell you how 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  many business ventures have failed because the owner's failed to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  understand stuff like that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary Woodard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Since I tend to buy these things long after they are out of production, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > (for financial reasons of course), I would like to know who really 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > manufactures the gears, especially the old Athearn gears, $3 for a pair 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of gears isn't cheap, not those delren gears anyway, if I knew what 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > other applications those same gears used, such as in appliances, DVD 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > players, computer drives or what have you, then I could find out where 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > to order the gears
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                   from, and would of course, have to order a whole case 
                                                                                                                                                                                                   > of gears, (which would be about 5000 gears), but $3 for a pair, and no 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > wheelsets included? I can promise you, Walthers is making money on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > those, lets not kid ourselves, if they are going to continue with that, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > its more cost effective to just completely regear with either Ernst or 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Northwest Shortline!!! !:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12221
						From: Walter Bayer
						Date: 11/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  



 


 
 
 
 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12222
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/5/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I never much cared for Rivarossi or AHM, which is WHY I sold ALL of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
older RIVA and AHM locos to you! LOL......and today, I don't have any of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
them left. The few AHM (RIVA)E-8s that I still have today, are mostly either
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
dummies, or have been given a P2K E unit chassis (for as long as those last).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Have never been a Bowser fan. Owned one Bowser loco, and it didn't work,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
so I sold it off.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best engines ever, in spite of "old age" or being "dated", are probably the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
old Athearn RTR engines: TMs, GP9s, F units, SDs, U boats. Maybe "crude"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
by todays standards, but still excellent runners, highly reliable, rugged
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and very dependable, and also very easy to repair.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Interesting to note, but today, I did an inventory (nose count) of these old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Athearns that I still have here: 101 F units (As and Bs); 25 GP9s, 14 TMs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
12 SD9s, 12 SD45s, 13 various U28s/U33s, 14 PAs (As and Bs), several
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
SW 1500s, and about  18 various model RDCs -- all still working. I plan
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to keep these old Athearns, and if anything needs "to go", it will most likely
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
be the P1K/P2Ks. Also have a few of the old Model Power E7 and E8s -- still
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
running (sound like coffee grinders!). Also, a remotored set of ABA RF-16
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sharks (Model Power). 2 of the RDCs also remotored from U-28B parts...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
For the vintage stuff, there are some old Hobbytown units still on my roster:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
PRR BP-20s (A and B); 2 FL-9s, A DL-110 (dummy B) and a PRR Center Cab
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Transfer diesel (all running). This is late-era Hobbytown (Miami, FL stuff).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(BP-20s are Passenger Sharks which were only ever used on the PRR; a DL-110
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
is a B unit for the DL-109).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Have lots and lots of old Mantua steam locos. These things were designed
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
like the old Model 15 teletype machines from the 1930-1975 era -- and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
intended to last FOREVER, literally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Have several old Varney F3s A and B too, but all with Athaern F unit chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(Also, older Model Power F-3As, also with Athearn F unit guts).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
This stuff  runs, is dependable and simple, and I will most likely keep. Being
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
61 yo, my eye sight isn't that great close up, so if the detail isn't as good
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
as with some of the newer stuff, it really doesn't matter. Looks good to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I still can't tell the difference from 3 feet away between a 50 yr old Athearn Blue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Box kit 40 ft boxcar and one of the newer $50 Kadee boxcars. In a train,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
they all look alike. I think I am still running at least 3 dozen old, old Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
freight cars too (upgraded of course, with Kadees and steel wheel sets).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
They still look good and perform very well.......
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12223
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The thing I really love about those old AHM Rivarossi steam engines is the detail on them, that was second to none back in the day, they still hold their own next to the latest greatest from BLI, their big downfall was the 3 pole motor, which wasn't a smooth running motor under any circumstances, back in the day though it was a different story with trying to put a 5 pole Mantua motor into one, there were a few who did it successfully, but it wasn't an easy task, but when can motors started hitting the market, that task became so much easier.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have two Mantua Mikado's, both run good, one has a Canon can motor and extra detail added, plus a really nice coal load in the tender, I need to fix the drive line in that one, since some of the NWSL parts, which are very delicate parts, split on me, but thats just a drive shaft problem between the motor and gears, my other one is Mantua all the way, then I have a Mehano Mikado also, which runs really nice, but hardly pulls anything on level track, till I put decent Kadee wheelsets into those Santa Fe Heavyweight cars you sold me!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have one Bowser old lady consolidation, beautiful runner, she will give the best brass imports a run for their money, I do have several F units that are P1k F units, some of which I got from you, but the bulk of my diesel fleet is still old Athearn F units, I have one old AHM E8 dummy, and an Athearn PB dummy, which will become a D&RGW steam generator car, and an old Con-Cor E7 which runs great, just like the old Model Power units, it sounds like a coffee grinder, but it run nice, it pulls my E8 and a group of streamlined Con-Cor passenger cars just fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I changed the roadname on those Athearn F units that used to be Florida East Coast that I got from you, they now are D&RGW units, you've seen them in my videos of course, still haven't figured out what I'm going to do with those E  unit bodyshells you sent, they are really nice P2k shells, wonder if they will ride well on a Con-Cor chassis???????:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Fri, November 6, 2009 2:33:08 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I never much cared for Rivarossi or AHM, which is WHY I sold ALL of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                  older RIVA and AHM locos to you! LOL......and today, I don't have any of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  them left. The few AHM (RIVA)E-8s that I still have today, are mostly either
                                                                                                                                                                                                  dummies, or have been given a P2K E unit chassis (for as long as those last).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have never been a Bowser fan. Owned one Bowser loco, and it didn't work,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  so I sold it off.....

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best engines ever, in spite of "old age" or being "dated", are probably the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  old Athearn RTR engines: TMs, GP9s, F units, SDs, U boats. Maybe "crude"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  by todays standards, but still excellent runners, highly reliable, rugged
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and very dependable, and also very easy to repair.....

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Interesting to note, but today, I did an inventory (nose count) of these old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Athearns that I still have here: 101 F units (As and Bs); 25 GP9s, 14
 TMs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  12 SD9s, 12 SD45s, 13 various U28s/U33s, 14 PAs (As and Bs), several
                                                                                                                                                                                                  SW 1500s, and about  18 various model RDCs -- all still working. I plan
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to keep these old Athearns, and if anything needs "to go", it will most likely
                                                                                                                                                                                                  be the P1K/P2Ks. Also have a few of the old Model Power E7 and E8s -- still
                                                                                                                                                                                                  running (sound like coffee grinders!). Also, a remotored set of ABA RF-16
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sharks (Model Power). 2 of the RDCs also remotored from U-28B parts...

                                                                                                                                                                                                  For the vintage stuff, there are some old Hobbytown units still on my roster:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  PRR BP-20s (A and B); 2 FL-9s, A DL-110 (dummy B) and a PRR Center Cab
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Transfer diesel (all running). This is late-era Hobbytown (Miami, FL stuff).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (BP-20s are Passenger Sharks which were only ever used on the PRR; a DL-110
                                                                                                                                                                                                  is a B unit for the DL-109).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have lots and lots of old Mantua steam locos. These things were designed
                                                                                                                                                                                                  like the old Model 15 teletype machines from the 1930-1975 era --
 and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  intended to last FOREVER, literally.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have several old Varney F3s A and B too, but all with Athaern F unit chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (Also, older Model Power F-3As, also with Athearn F unit guts).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  This stuff  runs, is dependable and simple, and I will most likely keep. Being
                                                                                                                                                                                                  61 yo, my eye sight isn't that great close up, so if the detail isn't as good
                                                                                                                                                                                                  as with some of the newer stuff, it really doesn't matter. Looks good to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I still can't tell the difference from 3 feet away between a 50 yr old Athearn Blue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Box kit 40 ft boxcar and one of the newer $50 Kadee boxcars. In a train,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  they all look alike. I think I am still running at least 3 dozen old, old Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                                  freight cars too (upgraded of course, with Kadees and steel wheel sets).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  They still look good and perform very well.......

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12224
						From: BillyDee53@aol.com
						Date: 11/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  (Long rant)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have to agree with Dave.  I have a box full of Life Like Proto 
locos.  Every one has had every axle changed out, before Walthers took 
over, and every one has split axles again.  I have Mantua and Varney 
locos thatI built as a kid, and locos my father built before I was born and 
they run today.  I have a Hobbytown RS3, that runs so slowly I had to paint 
a stripe on the flywheel so you can see it turn.  Athearn's deformities 
never bothered me before, they dont bother me now.  At least they pull 
trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   Are you sure you guys have the correct part number for the Athearn 
axles? The SD40-2 had different axles than the older units.  I dont know 
which fits the Proto locos, whether it is the SD40-2 part or the older 
part.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   I have read in different forums that the supply of BB kits has been 
dried up for years, because you dont see them in shops or at train shows 
anymore.  They arent at train shows because of Horizon's policy that 
they will only distribute to brick-and-mortar stores.  The guy who used to 
sell at the train shows cant get them anymore.  The guy at the hobby shop 
is required to buy hundreds of dollars worth of stock each month from 
Horizon.  Lets say the hobby shop makes a 10% profit on everything they 
sell (I know its ridiculous).  Now lets say Blue Box kits sell 
for $1.50;  the same car  RTR sells for $15.00.So if the hobby shop 
has 10 feet of shelf space to devote to Athearn products, which one is the 
guy behind the counter going to stock his shelf with, and which is he going to 
push off on you, and what is he going to tell you when you ask for BB 
kits?  He's going to tell you Athearn doesn't make them anymore and you 
have no choice but buy RTR.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   Some new company just released a $37 RTR gondola, which is an 
admitted 'foobie'.   The vociferous few think its okay, though, if you 
pay $37 for a foobie, because you paid $37 for it.  But it's not okay to 
pay $3.70 for an Athearn foobie. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   It goes right along with the just-in-time delivery 
system.  In order that retailers won't have to invest 
money in inventory, we are told we have to pre-order everything, years in 
advance of actual production.  We are committed to buy items which used to 
cost $15.  Today they cost $150 and we have to buy them sight-unseen.  
Might not have been so bad when we KNEW what was going to be in the box, just by 
the name on it.  You knew what was under the hood of an Athearn 
diesel, long before you bought it.  Today there's no telling what you 
are going to get.  There is no commitment from the manufacturer to provide 
quality, or to provide parts to keep your models running.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   We had a shortline in my old hometown that operated a half-dozen EMD 
SW's.  While i dont model that area of the world, or that time frame, I 
would like to model those locos.  That is a facet of the hobby I 
enjoy.  I already have models of the line's 11 caboose cars;  I am not 
afraid to strip and paint models;  I have the decals and paint for the 
locos but I cant get the locos any more.  A new run was just announced 
by the Willie K Walthers Catalog of Unavailable Model Railroad Supplies; 
but I am not going to spend $900 for a fleet of book ends.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   I have enough stuff to keep my layout going for 500 years after I am 
dead.  I dont need to pay $289 for a Bachmann 2-8-0 that used to cost $49 
just because they filled it with $15 worth of electronic gizzardry that I dont 
want.  And I am not doing it any more.  I have mine; I dont need 
theirs.  They do have pretty green headlights, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Rant Over.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12225
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave, Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Would like to 
interject my thoughts about old engines that run very good. Everyone has their 
favorites as do I. I come from a little different angle or perspective since I 
am purely a collector of vintage HO covering 1936 - 1975. My steam and diesel 
collections ( 150+ steam, 250 diesels ) are from all different companies and 
deal with mostly one of each product with no modifications in motors and drives. 
How they ran brand new is how they still run.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I still feel that the best vintage 
running steam engines are the Varney Super (post war) models using the 
Varney V-2 motor. My collection has a number of different types / wheel 
arrangements including A Varney Yellowstone using these motors. If this motor is 
properly kept and lubed I feel it can out run and out perform many newer can 
motors. Remember these V-2 motors are over 60 years old. In fact it could 
probably be called the first can motor since it was totally self contained 
including the gear housing that went around the geared drive axle. I don't know 
how it would run using new electronic attachments since I don't make those type 
of changes. Pulling power is great assuming the valve gear is working properly 
because of the engine weight. You could also add the V-3 motor that was the same 
motor with no covered gear housing and the V-4 that was especially designed for 
one the drives used in the Varney metal diesel F-3's. Mantua post war (around 
1945) steam with 12 volt motor / drop in driver system not to shabby 
either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       As for Rivarossi I think 
the early items were much better running then the first Rivarossi / AHM steam. 
That would include the streamlined 4-4-2 Hiawatha and the first Southern Pacific 
type 4-4-2. The motors and drive trains were different from the later 1966 
Rivarossi / AHM. How ever the original square motor type used in those first 
1966 production runs are much better then the later round motor productions 
from the 70's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I do like the Hobbytown motor / 
drive set ups but also must add the first Athearn ( just at the change from 
using the Globe name )  geared drive, way before the Hi-F rubber band 
drive, was a really nice piece of engineering. That also 
includes subsequent geared drives with minor changes that also came before 
Hi-F.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yet the most powerful HO 
engine I have is a Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6 steam engine. It uses a Pitman 
DC-90 motor normally used in O gauge. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Again this is all my 
personal opinion but it still remains that some very early vintage HO items were 
ahead of their times when compared with items of today. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  WK2SHR@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:33 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad 
  News
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I never much cared for Rivarossi 
  or AHM, which is WHY I sold ALL of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                  older RIVA and AHM locos to you! 
  LOL......and today, I don't have any of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  them left. The few AHM (RIVA)E-8s 
  that I still have today, are mostly either
                                                                                                                                                                                                  dummies, or have been given a 
  P2K E unit chassis (for as long as those last).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have never been a 
  Bowser fan. Owned one Bowser loco, and it didn't work,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  so I sold it 
  off.....

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best engines ever, in spite of "old age" or being "dated", are 
  probably the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  old Athearn RTR engines: TMs, GP9s, F units, SDs, U boats. 
  Maybe "crude"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  by todays standards, but still excellent runners, highly 
  reliable, rugged
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and very dependable, and also very easy to 
  repair.....

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Interesting to note, but today, I did an inventory (nose 
  count) of these old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Athearns that I still have here: 101 F units (As and 
  Bs); 25 GP9s, 14 TMs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  12 SD9s, 12 SD45s, 13 various U28s/U33s, 14 PAs (As 
  and Bs), several
                                                                                                                                                                                                  SW 1500s, and about  18 various model RDCs -- all 
  still working. I plan
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to keep these old Athearns, and if anything needs "to 
  go", it will most likely
                                                                                                                                                                                                  be the P1K/P2Ks. Also have a few of the old Model 
  Power E7 and E8s -- still
                                                                                                                                                                                                  running (sound like coffee grinders!). Also, a 
  remotored set of ABA RF-16
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sharks (Model Power). 2 of the RDCs also 
  remotored from U-28B parts...

                                                                                                                                                                                                  For the vintage stuff, there are some old 
  Hobbytown units still on my roster:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  PRR BP-20s (A and B); 2 FL-9s, A DL-110 
  (dummy B) and a PRR Center Cab
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Transfer diesel (all running). This is 
  late-era Hobbytown (Miami, FL stuff).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (BP-20s are Passenger Sharks which 
  were only ever used on the PRR; a DL-110
                                                                                                                                                                                                  is a B unit for the 
  DL-109).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have lots and lots of old Mantua steam locos. These things 
  were designed
                                                                                                                                                                                                  like the old Model 15 teletype machines from the 1930-1975 
  era -- and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  intended to last FOREVER, literally.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have several old 
  Varney F3s A and B too, but all with Athaern F unit chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (Also, older 
  Model Power F-3As, also with Athearn F unit guts).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  This stuff  
  runs, is dependable and simple, and I will most likely keep. Being
                                                                                                                                                                                                  61 yo, 
  my eye sight isn't that great close up, so if the detail isn't as good
                                                                                                                                                                                                  as 
  with some of the newer stuff, it really doesn't matter. Looks good to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I 
  still can't tell the difference from 3 feet away between a 50 yr old Athearn 
  Blue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Box kit 40 ft boxcar and one of the newer $50 Kadee boxcars. In a 
  train,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  they all look alike. I think I am still running at least 3 dozen 
  old, old Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                                  freight cars too (upgraded of course, with Kadees and steel 
  wheel sets).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  They still look good and perform very 
  well.......

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12226
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Bill,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The SD40-2 axles are the ones you want to use for all Athearn units produced after1983, older units you may want to find older salvagable units, or use a newer chassis, since the bodyshells never changed on anything before the production of the SD40-2.........:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "BillyDee53@..." <BillyDee53@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Fri, November 6, 2009 5:11:01 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  (Long rant)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have to agree with Dave.  I have a box full of Life Like Proto locos.  Every one has had every axle changed out, before Walthers took over, and every one has split axles again.  I have Mantua and Varney locos thatI built as a kid, and locos my father built before I was born and they run today.  I have a Hobbytown RS3, that runs so slowly I had to paint a stripe on the flywheel so you can see it turn.  Athearn's deformities never bothered me before, they dont bother me now.  At least they pull trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   Are you sure you guys have the correct part number for the Athearn axles? The SD40-2 had different axles than the older units.  I dont know which fits the Proto locos, whether it is the SD40-2 part or the older part.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   I have read in different forums that the supply of BB kits has been dried up for years, because you dont see them in shops or at train shows anymore.  They arent at train shows because of Horizon's policy that they will only distribute to brick-and-mortar stores.  The guy who used to sell at the train shows cant get them anymore.  The guy at the hobby shop is required to buy hundreds of dollars worth of stock each month from Horizon.  Lets say the hobby shop makes a 10% profit on everything they sell (I know its ridiculous).  Now lets say Blue Box kits sell for $1.50;  the same car  RTR sells for $15.00.So if the hobby shop has 10 feet of shelf space to devote to Athearn products, which one is the guy behind the counter going to stock his shelf with, and which is he going to push off on you, and what is he going to tell you when you ask for BB kits?  He's going to tell you Athearn
 doesn't make them anymore and you have no choice but buy RTR.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   Some new company just released a $37 RTR gondola, which is an admitted 'foobie'.   The vociferous few think its okay, though, if you pay $37 for a foobie, because you paid $37 for it.  But it's not okay to pay $3.70 for an Athearn foobie. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   It goes right along with the just-in-time delivery system.  In order that retailers won't have to invest money in inventory, we are told we have to pre-order everything, years in advance of actual production.  We are committed to buy items which used to cost $15.  Today they cost $150 and we have to buy them sight-unseen.  Might not have been so bad when we KNEW what was going to be in the box, just by the name on it.  You knew what was under the hood of an Athearn diesel, long before you bought it.  Today there's no telling what you are going to get.  There is no commitment from the manufacturer to provide quality, or to provide parts to keep your models running.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   We had a shortline in my old hometown that operated a half-dozen EMD SW's.  While i dont model that area of the world, or that time frame, I would like to model those locos.  That is a facet of the hobby I enjoy.  I already have models of the line's 11 caboose cars;  I am not afraid to strip and paint models;  I have the decals and paint for the locos but I cant get the locos any more.  A new run was just announced by the Willie K Walthers Catalog of Unavailable Model Railroad Supplies; but I am not going to spend $900 for a fleet of book ends.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   I have enough stuff to keep my layout going for 500 years after I am dead.  I dont need to pay $289 for a Bachmann 2-8-0 that used to cost $49 just because they filled it with $15 worth of electronic gizzardry that I dont want.  And I am not doing it any more.  I have mine; I dont need theirs.  They do have pretty green headlights, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Rant Over.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12227
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Bill,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Athearn was producing BB kits, my dealer was getting them and has a decent inventory of them right now, the bulk of his business are people like me, who would rather, even if its just a simple kit, build it and have that sense of pride in a model that just isn't possible with rtr.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  That being said, he also carries everything he can get in the rtr line as well, some of it does look real nice, I wouldn't mind having a few of the Mather stock cars from Proto, but can't afford them at $35 a shot, I think the Kadee boxcars are just beautiful, but I can't afford them, and if I could, do you honestly think I can afford to try to justify buying that to my wife?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Years ago, when my father was still alive, he used to love going to the hobby shops with me, but when he would notice the price tags on some items, well, lets just say my dad used to scratchbuild wooden sailing ships, and often he would start with a chunk of 4X4, he hated plastic, he also hated diesels, (I wasn't allowed to run diesels on MY model railroad when I was a kid, he was building the layout after all, and his money was funding the project!), so I grew up running Rivarossi steam, of course, those items were sold at much lower cost at Woolworth, remember Woolworth?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  As for those who think they want to push the more expensive alternative, thats why some hobby shops are going out of business or getting out of trains altogether, these folks don't know their customer base, often the hobby shop owner isn't a model railroader himself, and doesn't understand the market, just because its more expensive, isn't a guarantee that one will make anymore money, often what that does is lose money for the hobby shop, because its quite a bit more expensive than the kit version, many do still just put their last few dollars back in their wallet and walk out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  As for the supply of BB kits being dried up for years, no, they were very much available, no one can really blame Athear/Horizon for cutting production on stuff thats just sitting in their warehouse, if that were really the case of course, however, ever since buying out Athearn, Horizon has released a certain number of kits every year, however, again, on a limited basis, but they are available, at least for the time being.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  One thing that became very noticable after Horizon took over, and to THEIR credit, they improved the paintwork quality over the old Athearn 100%, just take a look at the BB F units that have come out since Horizon took over, getting past the crappy McHenry couplers, the paint is great, plus they did add window glazing, something that Athearn never did, so there were improvements to the original line, yes they got more expensive, but still well under $100 for a powered A and B set, but I guess that wasn't good enough, so now all we'll be left with is $300 Genesis! Go figure!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "BillyDee53@..." BillyDee53@...

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   Are you sure you guys have the correct part number for the Athearn axles? The SD40-2 had different axles than the older units.  I dont know which fits the Proto locos, whether it is the SD40-2 part or the older part.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   I have read in different forums that the supply of BB kits has been dried up for years, because you dont see them in shops or at train shows anymore.  They arent at train shows because of Horizon's policy that they will only distribute to brick-and-mortar stores.  The guy who used to sell at the train shows cant get them anymore.  The guy at the hobby shop is required to buy hundreds of dollars worth of stock each month from Horizon.  Lets say the hobby shop makes a 10% profit on everything they sell (I know its ridiculous).  Now lets say Blue Box kits sell for $1.50;  the same car  RTR sells for $15.00.So if the hobby shop has 10 feet of shelf space to devote to Athearn products, which one is the guy behind the counter going to stock his shelf with, and which is he going to push off on you, and what is he going to tell you when you ask for BB kits?  He's going to tell you Athearn
 doesn't make them anymore and you have no choice but buy RTR.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   Some new company just released a $37 RTR gondola, which is an admitted 'foobie'.   The vociferous few think its okay, though, if you pay $37 for a foobie, because you paid $37 for it.  But it's not okay to pay $3.70 for an Athearn foobie. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12228
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for those thoughts, there are a lot of great things that were made back in the day, no question about that, Rivarossi did improve their drives again, in the 90's, and those do run like Swiss watches, the engines I love the most of course, are the old Rivarossi/AHM, since that what I grew up with, so I tend to enjoy them, I also love my old Athearn diesels, my old Mantua steam engines, and when I can afford them, I really love the Bowser steam engines, but thats kind of limited since I'm not a Pennsy fan, I like the Pennsy, but I'm not a big fan of it....:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Fri, November 6, 2009 11:26:05 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave, Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Would like to interject my thoughts about old engines that run very good. Everyone has their favorites as do I. I come from a little different angle or perspective since I am purely a collector of vintage HO covering 1936 - 1975. My steam and diesel collections ( 150+ steam, 250 diesels ) are from all different companies and deal with mostly one of each product with no modifications in motors and drives. How they ran brand new is how they still run.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I still feel that the best vintage running steam engines are the Varney Super (post war) models using the Varney V-2 motor. My collection has a number of different types / wheel arrangements including A Varney Yellowstone using these motors. If this motor is properly kept and lubed I feel it can out run and out perform many newer can motors. Remember these V-2 motors are over 60 years old. In fact it could probably be called the first can motor since it was totally self contained including the gear housing that went around the geared drive axle. I don't know how it would run using new electronic attachments since I don't make those type of changes. Pulling power is great assuming the valve gear is working properly because of the engine weight. You could also add the V-3 motor that was the same motor with no covered gear housing and the V-4 that was especially designed for one the drives used in the Varney
 metal diesel F-3's. Mantua post war (around 1945) steam with 12 volt motor / drop in driver system not to shabby either.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       As for Rivarossi I think the early items were much better running then the first Rivarossi / AHM steam. That would include the streamlined 4-4-2 Hiawatha and the first Southern Pacific type 4-4-2. The motors and drive trains were different from the later 1966 Rivarossi / AHM. How ever the original square motor type used in those first 1966 production runs are much better then the later round motor productions from the 70's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I do like the Hobbytown motor / drive set ups but also must add the first Athearn ( just at the change from using the Globe name )  geared drive, way before the Hi-F rubber band drive, was a really nice piece of engineering. That also includes subsequent geared drives with minor changes that also came before Hi-F.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yet the most powerful HO engine I have is a Winton Allegheny 2-6-6-6 steam engine. It uses a Pitman DC-90 motor normally used in O gauge. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Again this is all my personal opinion but it still remains that some very early vintage HO items were ahead of their times when compared with items of today. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: WK2SHR@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 2:33 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I never much cared for Rivarossi or AHM, which is WHY I sold ALL of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                  older RIVA and AHM locos to you! LOL......and today, I don't have any of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  them left. The few AHM (RIVA)E-8s that I still have today, are mostly either
                                                                                                                                                                                                  dummies, or have been given a P2K E unit chassis (for as long as those last).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have never been a Bowser fan. Owned one Bowser loco, and it didn't work,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  so I sold it off.....

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best engines ever, in spite of "old age" or being "dated", are probably the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  old Athearn RTR engines: TMs, GP9s, F units, SDs, U boats. Maybe "crude"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  by todays standards, but still excellent runners, highly reliable, rugged
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and very dependable, and also very easy to repair.....

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Interesting to note, but today, I did an inventory (nose count) of these old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Athearns that I still have here: 101 F units (As and Bs); 25 GP9s, 14
 TMs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  12 SD9s, 12 SD45s, 13 various U28s/U33s, 14 PAs (As and Bs), several
                                                                                                                                                                                                  SW 1500s, and about  18 various model RDCs -- all still working. I plan
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to keep these old Athearns, and if anything needs "to go", it will most likely
                                                                                                                                                                                                  be the P1K/P2Ks. Also have a few of the old Model Power E7 and E8s -- still
                                                                                                                                                                                                  running (sound like coffee grinders!). Also, a remotored set of ABA RF-16
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sharks (Model Power). 2 of the RDCs also remotored from U-28B parts...

                                                                                                                                                                                                  For the vintage stuff, there are some old Hobbytown units still on my roster:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  PRR BP-20s (A and B); 2 FL-9s, A DL-110 (dummy B) and a PRR Center Cab
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Transfer diesel (all running). This is late-era Hobbytown (Miami, FL stuff).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (BP-20s are Passenger Sharks which were only ever used on the PRR; a DL-110
                                                                                                                                                                                                  is a B unit for the DL-109).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have lots and lots of old Mantua steam locos. These things were designed
                                                                                                                                                                                                  like the old Model 15 teletype machines from the 1930-1975 era --
 and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  intended to last FOREVER, literally.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have several old Varney F3s A and B too, but all with Athaern F unit chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (Also, older Model Power F-3As, also with Athearn F unit guts).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  This stuff  runs, is dependable and simple, and I will most likely keep. Being
                                                                                                                                                                                                  61 yo, my eye sight isn't that great close up, so if the detail isn't as good
                                                                                                                                                                                                  as with some of the newer stuff, it really doesn't matter. Looks good to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I still can't tell the difference from 3 feet away between a 50 yr old Athearn Blue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Box kit 40 ft boxcar and one of the newer $50 Kadee boxcars. In a train,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  they all look alike. I think I am still running at least 3 dozen old, old Varney
                                                                                                                                                                                                  freight cars too (upgraded of course, with Kadees and steel wheel sets).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  They still look good and perform very well.......

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12229
						From: BillyDee53@aol.com
						Date: 11/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/6/2009 11:40:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
jimheck@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                     I do like the Hobbytown motor / drive set ups but also 
  must add the first Athearn ( just at the change from using the Globe name 
  )  geared drive, way before the Hi-F rubber band drive, was a really nice 
  piece of engineering. That also includes subsequent geared drives with 
  minor changes that also came before Hi-F.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Is that what I have?  Its an Athearn GP9 with a chassis that looks 
similar to something Hobbytown would make but it has a universal shaft above the 
frame...not between the trucks like a Hobbytown.  the whole thing is 
crafted like a Hobbytown.  Next time I find the unit I'll get a pic..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12230
						From: corlissbs
						Date: 11/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Unbelievable
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yesterday, I visited my local hobby shop and a man was asking the train department man where to get rubber bands for his loco.  I walked over and saw that he had brought in a Hobbyline Fairbanks-Morse switcher that he had bought at a train meet.  I haven't seen one of those for a long time.  When I looked at it, he stated that it was for sale.  It was refreshing to see a model of that vintage.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12231
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Unbelievable
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sweet!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Did you give it a new home with you???
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
A month or so ago I bought a SOHO brass trolley from the same shop you  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and I go to. It's almost as old. It's the riveted side version of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
wooden sided version I bought ages ago when both were new. Decades  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
later I now have a matched set.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   On Nov 6, 2009, at 6:52 PM, corlissbs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yesterday, I visited my local hobby shop and a man was asking the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> train department man where to get rubber bands for his loco.  I  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> walked over and saw that he had brought in a Hobbyline Fairbanks- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Morse switcher that he had bought at a train meet.  I haven't seen  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> one of those for a long time.  When I looked at it, he stated that  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> it was for sale.  It was refreshing to see a model of that vintage.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Franklin, WI 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12232
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 11/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Unbelievable
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  What shop is this?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I go to Sommerfelds in Butler, WI, sometimes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  As my dad and I go to Camp Ma Ka Ja Wan (A 

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unbelievable
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 8:38 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  





 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sweet!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Did you give it a new home with you???
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
A month or so ago I bought a SOHO brass trolley from the same shop you  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and I go to. It's almost as old. It's the riveted side version of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
wooden sided version I bought ages ago when both were new. Decades  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
later I now have a matched set.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
On Nov 6, 2009, at 6:52 PM, corlissbs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yesterday, I visited my local hobby shop and a man was asking the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> train department man where to get rubber bands for his loco.  I  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> walked over and saw that he had brought in a Hobbyline Fairbanks- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Morse switcher that he had bought at a train meet.  I haven't seen  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> one of those for a long time.  When I looked at it, he stated that  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> it was for sale.  It was refreshing to see a model of that vintage.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     



 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12233
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 11/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Unbelievable
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  OK, somehow my last message got sent while I was still typing Strange. Very Strange.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, I go to a Scout Camp up in Northern Wisconsin with my dad at least 10 times a year during the summer. We take highway 45 (I think it is) and often stop at Sommerfelds either going to Ma Ka Ja Wan, or coming back, depending on time of day.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have found a lot of good vintage stuff there over the years, but it is really hit or miss. Sometimes they only have Tyco '70s stuff, other times they have tons of metal, and card and wood cars and locos. Of course, THAT only happens when I am not carrying much money with me. Sigh.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Disregard the other email just sent, as I said, something weird happened. Might have bumped the touchpad mouse on my laptop.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unbelievable
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 8:38 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  





 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sweet!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Did you give it a new home with you???
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
A month or so ago I bought a SOHO brass trolley from the same shop you  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and I go to. It's almost as old. It's the riveted side version of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
wooden sided version I bought ages ago when both were new. Decades  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
later I now have a matched set.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
On Nov 6, 2009, at 6:52 PM, corlissbs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yesterday, I visited my local hobby shop and a man was asking the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> train department man where to get rubber bands for his loco.  I  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> walked over and saw that he had brought in a Hobbyline Fairbanks- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Morse switcher that he had bought at a train meet.  I haven't seen  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> one of those for a long time.  When I looked at it, he stated that  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> it was for sale.  It was refreshing to see a model of that vintage.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     



 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12234
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Unbelievable
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think you and I also go to Greenfield News and Hobbies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:42 PM, Stephen Neubaum wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> What shop is this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I go to Sommerfelds in Butler, WI, sometimes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> As my dad and I go to Camp Ma Ka Ja Wan (A
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Mike Bauers wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sweet!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Did you give it a new home with you???
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> A month or so ago I bought a SOHO brass trolley from the same shop you
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and I go to. It's almost as old. It's the riveted side version of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> wooden sided version I bought ages ago when both were new. Decades
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> later I now have a matched set.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> On Nov 6, 2009, at 6:52 PM, corlissbs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Yesterday, I visited my local hobby shop and a man was asking the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > train department man where to get rubber bands for his loco. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > walked over and saw that he had brought in a Hobbyline Fairbanks-
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Morse switcher that he had bought at a train meet. I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > one of those for a long time. When I looked at it, he stated that
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > it was for sale. It was refreshing to see a model of that vintage.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Franklin, WI 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12235
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 11/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Unbelievable
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I wish I'd seen that Hobbyline.  I have one but it's riding on a proto power 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
west switcher chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Hey Brad, we gonna see you at Trainfest?  Stop by "Cream City Traction" and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
say hello to Mike and I (if Mike's ever at the layout <G>).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 8:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unbelievable
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>I think you and I also go to Greenfield News and Hobbies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:42 PM, Stephen Neubaum wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> What shop is this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> I go to Sommerfelds in Butler, WI, sometimes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> As my dad and I go to Camp Ma Ka Ja Wan (A
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Mike Bauers wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Sweet!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Did you give it a new home with you???
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> A month or so ago I bought a SOHO brass trolley from the same shop you
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> and I go to. It's almost as old. It's the riveted side version of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> wooden sided version I bought ages ago when both were new. Decades
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> later I now have a matched set.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> On Nov 6, 2009, at 6:52 PM, corlissbs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> > Yesterday, I visited my local hobby shop and a man was asking the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> > train department man where to get rubber bands for his loco. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> > walked over and saw that he had brought in a Hobbyline Fairbanks-
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> > Morse switcher that he had bought at a train meet. I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> > one of those for a long time. When I looked at it, he stated that
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> > it was for sale. It was refreshing to see a model of that vintage.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> > Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> > Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12236
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Unbelievable
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'll have to pop over there some time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I haunted Jerry's Bayview Hobbyshop for many years for the same reasons.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:45 PM, Stephen Neubaum wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> OK, somehow my last message got sent while I was still typing  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Strange. Very Strange.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Anyway, I go to a Scout Camp up in Northern Wisconsin with my dad at  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> least 10 times a year during the summer. We take highway 45 (I think  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> it is) and often stop at Sommerfelds either going to Ma Ka Ja Wan,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> or coming back, depending on time of day.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have found a lot of good vintage stuff there over the years, but  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> it is really hit or miss. Sometimes they only have Tyco '70s stuff,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> other times they have tons of metal, and card and wood cars and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> locos. Of course, THAT only happens when I am not carrying much  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> money with me. Sigh.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Disregard the other email just sent, as I said, something weird  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> happened. Might have bumped the touchpad mouse on my laptop.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Mike Bauers  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sweet!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Did you give it a new home with you???
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> A month or so ago I bought a SOHO brass trolley from the same shop you
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and I go to. It's almost as old. It's the riveted side version of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> wooden sided version I bought ages ago when both were new. Decades
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> later I now have a matched set.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> On Nov 6, 2009, at 6:52 PM, corlissbs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Yesterday, I visited my local hobby shop and a man was asking the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > train department man where to get rubber bands for his loco. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > walked over and saw that he had brought in a Hobbyline Fairbanks-
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Morse switcher that he had bought at a train meet. I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > one of those for a long time. When I looked at it, he stated that
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > it was for sale. It was refreshing to see a model of that vintage.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Franklin, WI 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12237
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 11/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Unbelievable
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I plan to be at Trainfest and will make a point to stop by your layout and say hello.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A friend of mine is coming up from near Antigo, WI. He is a railfan and we work a lot at camp together. I will have to introduce him to you guys (Even though he doesn't have a computer and isn't much on model railroading due to lack of space at his house- he has it like mine- full of rail memoribilia).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Is there any plans, since there are a number of us VintageHO members concentrated in the Chicago-Milwaukee area (I live in Waukegan, IL myself), to have a vintage style layout for clubs and shows? I sure would love to show off some of what I have.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Friend of mine who is an Alderman here in Waukegan in my ward, by the way, has kicked around the idea of having a semi-permanent vintage style layout on display downtown. Don't know if anything will
 become of it though, but he and I were talking about it earlier. Maybe somehow it would work in with having a VintageHO club layout...

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unbelievable
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 9:00 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  





 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I wish I'd seen that Hobbyline.  I have one but it's riding on a proto power 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
west switcher chassis.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Hey Brad, we gonna see you at Trainfest?  Stop by "Cream City Traction" and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
say hello to Mike and I (if Mike's ever at the layout <G>).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 8:52 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unbelievable
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>I think you and I also go to Greenfield News and Hobbies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:42 PM, Stephen Neubaum wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> What shop is this?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> I go to Sommerfelds in Butler, WI, sometimes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> As my dad and I go to Camp Ma Ka Ja Wan (A
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Mike Bauers wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Sweet!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Did you give it a new home with you???
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> A month or so ago I bought a SOHO brass trolley from the same shop you
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> and I go to. It's almost as old. It's the riveted side version of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> wooden sided version I bought ages ago when both were new. Decades
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> later I now have a matched set.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> On Nov 6, 2009, at 6:52 PM, corlissbs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> > Yesterday, I visited my local hobby shop and a man was asking the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> > train department man where to get rubber bands for his loco. I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> > walked over and saw that he had brought in a Hobbyline Fairbanks-
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> > Morse switcher that he had bought at a train meet. I haven't seen
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> > one of those for a long time. When I looked at it, he stated that
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> > it was for sale. It was refreshing to see a model of that vintage.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> > Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> > Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     



 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12238
						From: stephenlengal
						Date: 11/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: IHC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Along with the recent bad news about the blue box kits... does anyone know what happened to IHC ? I know that they are not considered a great source, or actually, any source for vintage HO... but it seems as if they have fallen off the radar. BUT... they had some some products derived from older TYCO and Pemco pieces, and it would be a shame if they simply disappeared altogether. ( I realize that probably not everyone would feel that way ). What would happen if Model Power would disappear next ? They have products derived from old Marx and Cox pieces. Like it or not... these items are part of our history as Model Railroaders. Of course, it is always debated as to whether or not these are vintage HO material. But think of the bigger picture. What if all we were left with was RTR stuff and starter sets. It's happening. I would hate to think that we all stood by and let it happen... just because we didn't like a particular product for one reason or another.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12239
						From: orangetrainman
						Date: 11/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: opinion please
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  group i need your opinion on these cars from a historical and/restoration standpoint( or are they just better for collecting)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://tinyurl.com/y8vjtm6
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12240
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: IHC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  stephenlengal wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Along with the recent bad news about the blue box kits... does anyone 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> know what happened to IHC ? I know that they are not considered a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> great source, or actually, any source for vintage HO... but it seems 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> as if they have fallen off the radar. BUT... they had some some 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> products derived from older TYCO and Pemco pieces, and it would be a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> shame if they simply disappeared altogether. ( I realize that probably 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> not everyone would feel that way ). What would happen if Model Power 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> would disappear next ? They have products derived from old Marx and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Cox pieces. Like it or not... these items are part of our history as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Model Railroaders. Of course, it is always debated as to whether or 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> not these are vintage HO material. But think of the bigger picture. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> What if all we were left with was RTR stuff and starter sets. It's 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> happening. I would hate to think that we all stood by and let it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> happen... just because we didn't like a particular product for one 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> reason or another.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> _
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Heard the plant in Slowenia shut down for good this summer. Slowenia is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
an EU member now... with all advantages and disadvantages ( higher cost 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
of living - higher wages). Maybe they will produce their stuff in China 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
now... at least Walthers still lists the items as "almost always available"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12241
						From: BillyDee53@aol.com
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: IHC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have seen two posts recently, on different forums, about IHC.  The 
first stated that Bernie Paul, the man behind both IHC and AHM, sold the company 
in 2000.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The second, that production has just begun once again in China, after all 
the European manufacturers failed in the last 10 years.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Atlas had an article on their website recently about the Chinese man who 
manufactured all their models.  At the same time their was a statement on 
the Bachmann forum that their parent corporation, Kader Industries, now owned 
the Atlas man's company.  It seems there is one Chinese corporation, that 
owns 10 manufacturing plants, which is where all of our models are now being 
made.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12242
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: opinion please
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Speaking as from where I see them (but not necessarily how another modeler may view them), the historic and restorational aspect of old models such as this is in direct correlation to collecting them -- it's not one OR the other -- they are linked.  While minor restoration using other than original parts, for refurbishing a rare vintage piece that otherwise may never be restored otherwise is allowable, unless you can locate original car ends, ice hatches and roof walks for these cars I feel that they would not be good examples of collectable items from a historical standpoint.  The car sides (paint, printing, etc.) seem to be in good shape and are definitely well worth the effort to restore for operational purposes.  If you can locate the needed original parts, they would be worth being considered for restoring for historical/collectable purposes also, but otherwise, just enjoy running them after getting them back in shape (with substitute parts, if that's all you can find).  Ray F.W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12243
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: opinion please
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  The price is right, if it was me I'd take them and get them in running 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
condition.  They're not so rare or valuable that you'd be destroying 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
irreplaceable collector's items.  If you don't have hatches and ladders in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
your scrap box they're easy to fabricate from scratch.  Some scribed 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
evergreen styrene or northeastern scribed siding and some track spikes for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
hinges and latches and the roofs would look original, hang kadees and decent 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
trucks under them and run 'em.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "orangetrainman" <orangetrainman33@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:13 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] opinion please
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> group i need your opinion on these cars from a historical and/restoration 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> standpoint( or are they just better for collecting)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://tinyurl.com/y8vjtm6 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12244
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Unbelievable
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  <What shop is this?>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Greenfield News and Hobby, in Greenfield, WI.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12245
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Unbelievable
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  <Hey Brad, we gonna see you at Trainfest?>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I will be there, Friday thru Sunday.  Either at the Milwaukee Light 
Engineering Society (7-1/2" live steam trains) or at the MANTRAK (Milwaukee Area 
N-trak) layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12246
						From: toytrain13
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Red Ball reefer door hardware
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello- I'm constructing a number of old Red Ball refrigerator car kits and I see that the door hardware (hinges and latch) is not included- it was available at extra cost. Does anyone know a source for door hardware? I do recall that Silver Streak had similar hardware in their reefer kits. Thanks- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12247
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: IHC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kind of.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sanda Kahn (and I can never remember exactly how it's spelled) had 6 or 7 factories, making most of out hobby items.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Kader Heavy Industries (Chairman Ting) owns Botch.....errr......Bachmann, Williams, and others.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Year or two ago, Kader bought out Sanda Kahn, so now the Ting Dynasty controls 90% of model railroad manufacture worldwide.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > Atlas had an article on their website recently about the Chinese man who  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> manufactured all their models.  At the same time their was a statement on  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the Bachmann forum that their parent corporation, Kader Industries, now owned  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the Atlas man's company.  It seems there is one Chinese corporation, that  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> owns 10 manufacturing plants, which is where all of our models are now being 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  made.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Bill
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12248
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: IHC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
There was a note somewhere (I forgot where), that Bachmann recently
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
bought out Woodland Scenics as well....
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12249
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Red Ball reefer door hardware
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  The Binkley/Red Ball parts are now available from another maker in  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
fresh production.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have it bookmarked on my newer computer, but not in this older one.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm not finding it via Google.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If no one else comes forward with it, I'll be back with it late today.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
[perhaps I should sync my bookmarks?]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to Ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   On Nov 7, 2009, at 11:08 AM, toytrain13 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hello- I'm constructing a number of old Red Ball refrigerator car  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> kits and I see that the door hardware (hinges and latch) is not  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> included- it was available at extra cost. Does anyone know a source  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> for door hardware? I do recall that Silver Streak had similar  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> hardware in their reefer kits. Thanks- Richard White 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12250
						From: BillyDee53@aol.com
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Red Ball reefer door hardware
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bitter Creek Models sells the old BC line of car parts;
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  MRRWarehouse WAS the owner of Red Ball but they just sold the line to 
LaBelle Woodworking a month or so ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12251
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Red Ball reefer door hardware
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  THANK YOU!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
That's the place !!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
When I looked through the MRRWarehouse pages, I saw that the cast  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
coach sides I've seen before are actually parts to make up a Jim Crow  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
car. I'm tempted to build one for it's historic sake. Then finish it  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
as a Fish Hatchery field car for a better second career of the car in  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
much more suitable use.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Maybe one as a Chapel Car as well.......... a place to pray that the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
original use of the car will never return in any form.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to Ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   On Nov 7, 2009, at 2:18 PM, BillyDee53@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Bitter Creek Models sells the old BC line of car parts;
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> MRRWarehouse WAS the owner of Red Ball but they just sold the line  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> to LaBelle Woodworking a month or so ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Bill 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12252
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: OO gauge brake part
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hey, guys (and maybe gals?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm restoring an Eastern Models OO gauge reefer and need a common air 
cyclinder for the brake system under the car. Appreciate it if anyone has one 
lying around you can sell me. I hate to use an HO scale one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/7/2009 12:44:46 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
mwbauers55@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  THANK 
  YOU!!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  That's the place !!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I looked through the 
  MRRWarehouse pages, I saw that the cast  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  coach sides I've seen before 
  are actually parts to make up a Jim Crow  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  car. I'm tempted to build 
  one for it's historic sake. Then finish it  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  as a Fish Hatchery field 
  car for a better second career of the car in  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  much more suitable 
  use.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Maybe one as a Chapel Car as well.......... a place to pray that 
  the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  original use of the car will never return in any 
  form.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to Ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi


                                                                                                                                                                                                  On Nov 7, 
  2009, at 2:18 PM, BillyDee53@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Bitter 
  Creek Models sells the old BC line of car parts;
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > MRRWarehouse WAS the 
  owner of Red Ball but they just sold the line  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > to LaBelle 
  Woodworking a month or so ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  Bill


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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12253
						From: John H
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: OO gauge brake part
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hey, guys (and maybe gals?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I'm restoring an Eastern Models OO gauge reefer and need a common air  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> cyclinder for the brake system under the car. Appreciate it if anyone has one  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> lying around you can sell me. I hate to use an HO scale one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I would recommend joining the American OO group
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanOO/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
You will find an answer there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12254
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: OO gauge brake part
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks! I'm off to OO gauge territory. . . .
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/7/2009 1:25:54 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
sprinthag@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... 
  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hey, guys (and maybe gals?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I'm restoring an 
  Eastern Models OO gauge reefer and need a common air  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > cyclinder 
  for the brake system under the car. Appreciate it if anyone has one  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > lying around you can sell me. I hate to use an HO scale 
  one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I would recommend joining the 
  American OO group

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AmericanOO/

                                                                                                                                                                                                  You 
  will find an answer there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  John 
  Hagen




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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12255
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: IHC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  While we are hoping to see production resume; I'm nervous about how  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the IHC site now has no mention of their early era 4-4-0's, the early  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
2-4-0's, the TOC 4-4-0's and TOC 2-6-0's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I hope they will return to the market. While they are flawed, the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
early era versions are of a higher quality than the matching Bachmann  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
early 4-4-0's, and the TOC designs are not really duplicated elsewhere  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
in HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Since the odds are that Horizon will not change their minds and ever  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
again produce the Mantua 4-4-0 General, the field of available  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
production early models is just too small in variety. [not considering  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the Bachmann John Bull and LaFayette 0-4-0 and 4-2-0 models]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've been forced to go out of normal model 'channels' and get some of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the Bachmann Thomas the Tank Engine 4-2-2 "Emily's" to convert to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
4-2-4t Inspection Engines for a broader selection of early era models  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to run. Although that is a cheat and closer to TOC than early era  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
models, about 1885.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   On Nov 6, 2009, at 11:56 PM, stephenlengal wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Along with the recent bad news about the blue box kits... does  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> anyone know what happened to IHC ? I know that they are not  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> considered a great source, or actually, any source for vintage HO...  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> but it seems as if they have fallen off the radar. BUT... they had  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> some some products derived from older TYCO and Pemco pieces, and it  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> would be a shame if they simply disappeared altogether. ( I realize  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> that probably not everyone would feel that way ). What would happen  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> if Model Power would disappear next ? They have products derived  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> from old Marx and Cox pieces. Like it or not... these items are part  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> of our history as Model Railroaders. Of course, it is always debated  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> as to whether or not these are vintage HO material. But think of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> bigger picture. What if all we were left with was RTR stuff and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> starter sets. It's happening. I would hate to think that we all  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> stood by and let it happen... just because we didn't like a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> particular product for one reason or another. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12256
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: opinion please
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also suggest buying them and restoring them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I believe you will find all of the missing vintage parts you need in  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the Binkley/RedBall parts offered by Bitter Creek Models.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.bittercreekmodels.com/DETAIL_PARTS.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   On Nov 7, 2009, at 7:23 AM, Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The price is right, if it was me I'd take them and get them in running
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> condition.  They're not so rare or valuable that you'd be destroying
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> irreplaceable collector's items.  If you don't have hatches and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ladders in
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> your scrap box they're easy to fabricate from scratch.  Some scribed
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> evergreen styrene or northeastern scribed siding and some track  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> spikes for
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> hinges and latches and the roofs would look original, hang kadees  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and decent
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> trucks under them and run 'em.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: "orangetrainman"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> group i need your opinion on these cars from a historical and/ 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> restoration
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> standpoint( or are they just better for collecting)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> http://tinyurl.com/y8vjtm6 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12257
						From: Thomas Parsons
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Red Ball reefer door hardware
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Tichy Train Group has some in their catalog.  Tom P.

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Sat, 11/7/09, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Red Ball reefer door hardware
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Saturday, November 7, 2009, 11:59 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The Binkley/Red Ball parts are now available from another maker in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  fresh production.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have it bookmarked on my newer computer, but not in this older one. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm not finding it via Google.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If no one else comes forward with it, I'll be back with it late today.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  [perhaps I should sync my bookmarks?]

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to Ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi

                                                                                                                                                                                                  On Nov 7, 2009, at 11:08 AM, toytrain13 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hello- I'm constructing a number of old Red Ball refrigerator car 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > kits and I see that the door hardware (hinges and latch) is not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > included- it was available at extra cost. Does anyone know a source 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > for door hardware? I do recall that Silver Streak had similar 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > hardware in their reefer kits. Thanks- Richard White

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12258
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: IHC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
What does "TOC" mean?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Horizon never produced Mantua products (4-4-0 General). Mantua's HO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
train line has been acquired by Model Power. Someone is trying to acquire
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Model Power at latest news (probably Bachmann).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
IHCs most recent line of locos was produced by Mehano. Mehano is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
out of business (at least for now). Nothing heard as to whether someone
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
else will acquire the line. Mehano was neither offered for sale, nor
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
sought after by other mfrs -- they just fired their employees, shut down and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
locked the plant up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12259
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I think your logic is a bit flawed in your praise for Horizon. The only thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
good that Horizon did for the hobby is that they bailed Athearn out after
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
they over-expanded into N and then Genises....and then got into money
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
trouble as a result.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
One of the things you have to remember about Athearn is that when Old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Irv died....his company was bought by a LAWYER. You know how lawyers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
are: they only see $$.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Horizon acquiring McHenry couplers was not, at least not in my opinion,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
any form of improvement to the product line.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The jury is still out on whether the current Athearn and now MDC/Roundhouse
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
being in the same camp -- is really all that great of an idea. Seems since
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
all the changes, both Athearn and MDC are extremely hard to get, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
certainly no longer widely available anywhere.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
As for the BB kits.....I think today's modelers are spoiled with too much
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
RTR available. Take away some of the glitzy RTR stuff, and offer only kits,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and I am certain the kits would once again sell very well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Otherwise, I would agree that the paint work and some of the added "stuff"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
such as windshields in the RTR F units is a nice touch, but then again, so 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
were the Diesel Dress Up kits when they came out. Athearn would do well
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to add diaphrams and close coupling to their Fs and maybe bring back the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
ENTIRE line of RTR diesels. Seems they have either discontinued most of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
them, or are holding them back, in order to force-sell their Genises line.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I don't buy Genises. Have one set, a gift from wife some years ago (F 3 ABBA),
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and they run OK, but I am not impressed. Too delicate, too expensive,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and really too "finished" to do anything with, such as personalizing with
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
own detail work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I especially miss their older GP9s and TMs and the SD9s in the old RTR form.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
These were nice runners, durable, rugged and well built. Luckily, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
still widely available almost new at most Train Shows. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
As for LHS going out of the train business.....well,trains are too expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and too hard to get anymore. Most LHS outside of larger cities have moved
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
into other things to replace trains, since there is "no money" in trains anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
What trains they carry, often don't move, due to high costs, or the inability
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to obtain additional model RR items, accessories, et al. Around here, LHS
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
seem to still carry books and MR publications, but very, very few RR models.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
There doesn't seem to be an interest in either expanding the model RR lines
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
at the LHS, or replacing items once they have been sold off (usually at discount
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
prices just to get rid of them). Of 3 LHS in our area, 1 went out of business
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
recently; 1 just about quit trains and the last one is barely hanging on. . . 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12260
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for the thoughts on collecting. Better run some of those collection
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
engines once in a great while. If they sit for years, eventually the motors
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
begin to pit from dampness, etc. This happens with locos that have been
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
stored for a long time too. Never hurts to "turn the motors" over once in
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
awhile.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12261
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: IHC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dang, I must have been thinking of MDC and Horizon in terms of older steam types and getting it confused as I started to doze in the computer chair.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Same story about the Mantua Generals, the true, new owners have consistently stated they will not be re-issuing that engine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  TOC is Turn-of-Century.......

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A great pity about Mechano........ They had rather nice stuff.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  On Nov 8, 2009, at 12:27 AM, WK2SHR@... wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  What does "TOC" mean?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Horizon never produced Mantua products (4-4-0 General). Mantua's HO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  train line has been acquired by Model Power. Someone is trying to acquire
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Model Power at latest news (probably Bachmann).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  IHCs most recent line of locos was produced by Mehano. Mehano is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  out of business (at least for now). Nothing heard as to whether someone
                                                                                                                                                                                                  else will acquire the line. Mehano was neither offered for sale, nor
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sought after by other mfrs -- they just fired their employees, shut down and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  locked the plant up.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12262
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: IHC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Mike:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for clearing that up! You are forgiven, LOL. . . . 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Not sure if you remember, but at one time (early 90s or so) Mehano
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
made absolute junk -- toys, really.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Bernie Paul (IHC) sent Chuck Friedlein over to Mehano from Phila with
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
some samples of Atlas, Stewart and Athearn RTR locos. Once at Mehano,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
they took the samples apart to see how they were made and how Mehano
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
could better improve the junkers they were making.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The result was their "Premiere" line of locomotives.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
While not up to the same standard as Atlas and Stewart, they were at a
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
100% improvement over their previous line of clunkers, and were a very
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
close match in both performance and reliability with the Athearn RTR line
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
of engines. Mehano made a good loco and the quality seemed to be pretty
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
consistent throughout their line. Good stuff at reasonable prices (for awhile
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
anyway).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I was fortunate in that I was able to acquire several dozen of their engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
They are some of my "regulars" on the layout and none have ever given any
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
trouble. There are several models here, all different types and all seem to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
have had excellent quality control built into them. Very nice performers!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12263
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Praising Horizon? Not on your life, other than the fact that the paint work and addition of window glazing, (and better headlight glazing also), to the F units.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  One of the reason you probably will never see the older diesel line back in production is because of the lack of detail, those items, while nice, and well suited for their time period, again! Lack the scale width hoods, until you get to the SD40-2 and after, so the BB SD40T-2, the GP50, GP38-2, and GP40-2 were all right on target for the width of the hoods, but everything produced before start of production of the SD40-2 in 1983, including the GP7/9, GP35, SD9, SD45, and all the U boats and the Trainmaster, were too wide at the hoods to accomidate the motor, would these models still sell if they were available? Probably not, and you can't really blame Horizon for that, simply put that is just simply a business decision, however, I still believe that parts should continue to be available, especially the mechanical parts, well? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In general, most of the parts available now just won't be available to your LHS, there are a few places that for years warehoused parts, there are even a couple of shops in California that have most if not all the necessary parts if you need to repair an older Athearn diesel or even the older rolling stock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  One thing most folks may not understand, all of my in operation F units have Genesis interiors, yes, the interior does fit into the old F unit shell, and will probably fit inside the P1k and P2k F and E units as well, many of the parts that are used in the Genesis line of hood units can be used for the older hood units, I have a D&RGW SD40T-2 that is in need of some handrails, a full set, I can use the part thats used now for Genesis SD40T-2, and they will fit perfectly in place of where the old metal parts should go, not quite as bullet proof as the metal parts, and certainly doesn't hold paint as well, but they will work if I can't find a set of originals, that one of course will be a shelf queen since its a dummy anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  News flash! I found a use for the old drive axle gears and wheelsets, since a dummy unit won't put any strain on the gear, it can still hold the wheelsets together, they will fit fine in some of the dummy Athearn units, giving you a set of axles that ride in bushings, making it work much more smoothly, however, my SD40T-2 will still be a shelf queen, since my railroad doesn't run anything that modern!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  As for the internal parts, we will have NWSL, probably will also be able to use P2k parts when necessary, (yes, my dealer can get P2k parts, I know that sounds strange), so with the most likely current stock of BB parts out there today, which will probably be around for a few years before certain items start to dry up, as has been said before, where theres a will, theres a way, we will always be able to keep our old Athearn BB locos running, and rolling stock? I still use Kadee couplers, and in some cases, I use Genesis trucks, irregardless of Athearn owning McHenry, they are still as much crap as the old X2f design, so when they fail, as they will, (their destined to), I use good ole Kadee No.5's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  As for getting the old BB F units to couple close together, there are two options, use a drawbar system, which I use at times, or if you want to be able to use these units in different consists, use American Limited close coupling kit for Athearn F units, that does bring them to the 3.5 foot clearence between each unit....:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sun, November 8, 2009 2:03:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think your logic is a bit flawed in your praise for Horizon. The only thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  good that Horizon did for the hobby is that they bailed Athearn out after
                                                                                                                                                                                                  they over-expanded into N and then Genises....and then got into money
                                                                                                                                                                                                  trouble as a result.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  One of the things you have to remember about Athearn is that when Old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Irv died....his company was bought by a LAWYER. You know how lawyers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are: they only see $$.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Horizon acquiring McHenry couplers was not, at least not in my opinion,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  any form of improvement to the product line.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The jury is still out on whether the current Athearn and now MDC/Roundhouse
                                                                                                                                                                                                  being in the same camp -- is really all that great of an idea. Seems since
                                                                                                                                                                                                  all the changes, both Athearn and MDC are extremely hard to get, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  certainly no longer widely available anywhere.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  As for the BB kits.....I
 think today's modelers are spoiled with too much
                                                                                                                                                                                                  RTR available. Take away some of the glitzy RTR stuff, and offer only kits,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and I am certain the kits would once again sell very well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Otherwise, I would agree that the paint work and some of the added "stuff"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  such as windshields in the RTR F units is a nice touch, but then again, so 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  were the Diesel Dress Up kits when they came out. Athearn would do well
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to add diaphrams and close coupling to their Fs and maybe bring back the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ENTIRE line of RTR diesels. Seems they have either discontinued most of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  them, or are holding them back, in order to force-sell their Genises line.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't buy Genises. Have one set, a gift from wife some years ago (F 3 ABBA),
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and they run OK, but I am not impressed. Too delicate, too expensive,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and really too "finished" to do anything with, such as personalizing with
                                                                                                                                                                                                  own detail work.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I especially miss their older GP9s and TMs and the
 SD9s in the old RTR form.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  These were nice runners, durable, rugged and well built. Luckily, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                  still widely available almost new at most Train Shows. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  As for LHS going out of the train business.... .well,trains are too expensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and too hard to get anymore. Most LHS outside of larger cities have moved
                                                                                                                                                                                                  into other things to replace trains, since there is "no money" in trains anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  What trains they carry, often don't move, due to high costs, or the inability
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to obtain additional model RR items, accessories, et al. Around here, LHS
                                                                                                                                                                                                  seem to still carry books and MR publications, but very, very few RR models.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  There doesn't seem to be an interest in either expanding the model RR lines
                                                                                                                                                                                                  at the LHS, or replacing items once they have been sold off (usually at discount
                                                                                                                                                                                                  prices just to get rid of them). Of 3 LHS in our area, 1 went out of business
                                                                                                                                                                                                  recently; 1 just about quit trains and the last one is barely hanging
 on. . . 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12264
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 11/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  WK2SHR@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gary:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I think your logic is a bit flawed in your praise for Horizon. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> only thing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> good that Horizon did for the hobby is that they bailed Athearn out after
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> they over-expanded into N and then Genises....and then got into money
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> trouble as a result.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> One of the things you have to remember about Athearn is that when Old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Irv died....his company was bought by a LAWYER. You know how lawyers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> are: they only see $$.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Horizon acquiring McHenry couplers was not, at least not in my opinion,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> any form of improvement to the product line.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The jury is still out on whether the current Athearn and now 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> MDC/Roundhouse
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> being in the same camp -- is really all that great of an idea. Seems since
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> all the changes, both Athearn and MDC are extremely hard to get, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> certainly no longer widely available anywhere.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> As for the BB kits.....I think today's modelers are spoiled with too much
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> RTR available. Take away some of the glitzy RTR stuff, and offer only 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> kits,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and I am certain the kits would once again sell very well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Otherwise, I would agree that the paint work and some of the added "stuff"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> such as windshields in the RTR F units is a nice touch, but then 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> again, so
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> were the Diesel Dress Up kits when they came out. Athearn would do well
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> to add diaphrams and close coupling to their Fs and maybe bring back the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ENTIRE line of RTR diesels. Seems they have either discontinued most of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> them, or are holding them back, in order to force-sell their Genises line.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I don't buy Genises. Have one set, a gift from wife some years ago (F 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 3 ABBA),
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and they run OK, but I am not impressed. Too delicate, too expensive,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and really too "finished" to do anything with, such as personalizing with
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> own detail work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I especially miss their older GP9s and TMs and the SD9s in the old RTR 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> form.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> These were nice runners, durable, rugged and well built. Luckily, they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> still widely available almost new at most Train Shows.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  My three cents...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
maybe the ruggedness of the BB kits is their downfall... honestly, who 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
has bought BB kits in quantity in the last years?  I have  dozens of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
F7s, some Trainmasters, some Switchers  ---  most of them bought used or 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
when Trainworld had their last big sale five years ago. Now they will 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
run forever... same with freight car kits. Assembled a complete reefer 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
train for change money at eBay...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Those who are new to the hobby wont understand the appeal of those old 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
crude ? models , having been brainwashed by reviews of cars with so many 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
fragile detail parts applied that you regularly break something when 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
operating them.  So it was a logical move to discontinue... same with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Bowser, Mantua and others who face the same problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I dont care about Genesis ... if I am unhappy with the detailing of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
fifty year old Athearn bodies  I pick up an abused brass F unit at eBay, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
restore the body and put it on a Athearn drive... presto! a nice metal 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
shell , see through grilles, grab irons and all, on a dependable chassis 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
for half the money of a Genesis.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
And , regarding availablility of those models  ...  we wont life to see 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the supply of used models dry up, they are constantly changing hands 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
.... I am amazed that , as the older guys pass away, there is still 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
sufficient interest so all this estate stuff is still sold.... cant 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
believe a sizeable percentage goes to newcomers, my guess is that other 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
guys (like me) a little younger get carried away adding more and more to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
their collection....
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12265
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 11/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: F unit spacing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> As for getting the old BB F units to couple close together, there are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> two options, use a drawbar system, which I use at times, or if you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> want to be able to use these units in different consists, use American 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Limited close coupling kit for Athearn F units, that does bring them 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> to the 3.5 foot clearence between each unit....:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  A Kadee 30 series coupler if mounted to a piece of metal or styrene on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the inside of the rear end, gives acceptable spacing.   The new Walthers 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Proto Max  ( 920-6005) couplers have even smaller mounting boxes and are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
easier to install. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I found out that even Kadee #18 couplers which consist only of a coupler 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
head with a link on its backside, without a sht in the usual sense , may 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
be attached to a F-unit if used only on wide curves.  The problme is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
that they are intended to be attached to the carbody fairly low, not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
easy to do on a F.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12266
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Penn Line/Fleischmann Passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                          
 I'm passing along pictures of a completed set ( minus one car still not 
assembled ) of the first passenger set sold by Penn Line around 1958 using metal 
lithographed Fleischmann cars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       I realize that this set 
will not meet any standard of realism and will fall into the toy like category 
but it is a very rare set for vintage HO collectors. Having stickers on the 
engines, a horn in the B unit with large outside controller and the mix of 
American style diesels with German style passenger cars limit it's appeal except 
to a collector of Penn Line items and collecting vintage Ho in general. Yet it 
is highly valued to the collector as being the second most sought after piece by 
the collector after the Penn Line Crusader.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       I mainly wanted to show 
the passenger cars that had to be disassembled to replace window material. These 
cars come factory assembled and are were not meant to come apart. There was no 
other way to add new window material. While the unassembled passenger car looks 
straight forward with 4 main parts ( body, roof and two ends. ) it is the tab 
and slot assembly along with a certain order needed to be followed making it 
harder. Just trying to disassemble you must be careful not to bend tabs to far 
or they snap off. I had to make a special narrow slightly bent pair of 
needlenose pliers to reach the two bottom tabs in the ends and still 
allowed you to apply good pressure to open. ( maybe you can buy exactly what 
needed but I couldn't find them )
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Just thought you might like seeing the 
Fleischmann cars unassembled and refurbished. This set is not the best in 
condition being over 50 years old but still acceptable for collecting. I will 
have to watch Ebay to upgrade pieces as single pieces sometimes show up. 
Factory painted and lithographed means limiting any paint repair work to retain 
value.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12267
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: F unit spacing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I already use the draw bar method on the Athearn F units. Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12268
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 11/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Fleischmann pictures from eBay.de
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
as I am tired of restoring a decrepit paper sided reefer which I work on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
for hours - I better would have taken off the brass roof ribs and ice 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
hatches and throw it out of the window, everything else is a mess!  -  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
thought I contribute a few Fleischmann links to show the orgin of those 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"US" cars...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.de/Fleischmann-1412-Packwagen-Hamburg-50er-US-Zone-OVP-RAR_W0QQitemZ220501548729    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
- DB baggage
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.de/Fleischmann-1410-Schnellzugwagen-Hamburg-50er-US-Zone_W0QQitemZ220501552070               
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
- DB coach
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.de/ta-Fleischmann-selten-Pennsylvania-US-Mail-5285-Wagen_W0QQitemZ140357702772                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
- PRR baggage
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
- apparently they all, even the PRR baggage, have European style trucks
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.de/Packwagen-Union-Pacific-RR-1422-U_W0QQitemZ2505228749         
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
UP baggage
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.de/Pullman-Wagen-Union-Pacific-RR_W0QQitemZ250522875789            
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
UP coach
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-this two have already the US style trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and here a few Steamers of German orgin, slightly americanized:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.de/Fleischmann-H0-US-Schlepptenderlok-1366-Pacific_W0QQitemZ170403261029      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
- Pacific , last run; apparently the type of loco you asked me some time 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
ago and which I failed to identify for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.de/Fleischmann-1304-A-US-Schlepptenderlok-SELTEN_W0QQitemZ320443428179    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
- definitely a crude vehicle, in Germany it came in the cheap train 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
sets... looked wrong from every angle, no matter if lettered DB or PRR.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and here the two plastic sets of the later era:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.de/A70-FLEISCHMANN-US-NEW-HAVEN-PERSONENZUG-SET_W0QQitemZ250525910213
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.de/Fleischmann-H0-1440-1441-US-Doppelstockwagen-Santa-Fe_W0QQitemZ110448082986
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
- Jim, if you click on the picture you will get a high resolution image 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
of the trucks - they look like those on your NP cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12269
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Agree on all points. I have a very large layout here at home with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
very, very large collection of trains -- over 976+ locos and (still) about
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
4000 freight and passengers. My inventory lists 199 cabooses....
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The layout itself is about 1000 sq ft (too small for me now, as I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have outgrown it!).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I no longer buy trains. Dont need any! But, every now and then, I do sell
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
stuff in order to thin down what I have and let go of the items I rarely ever
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
run.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Just to make my point on your take, I would venture a guess that nearly
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
70% of what I have in the way of both rolling stock -- and structures --
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
came to me USED. Most was acquired at either train shows or from estates.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Some of that stuff also now resides on Gary's layout (Gary on this list),
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
JSs layout and several other folks whom I've gotten to know and to whom
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've sold (or given) items to over the years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
FYI: I have been in the hobby for over 51 years now, and still going strong!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
LOL. Thanks for your comments and observations. Greatly appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12270
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 11/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Red Ball reefer door hardware
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  The most accurate reefer door hardware is produced by Grandt Line.   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
That is what I use when the the need is presented for an easy upgrade  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
of either Red Ball or Silver Streak reefers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12271
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     WOW. Double WOW. What an impressive 
layout you must have. When is open house ? It must truly be something to 
see. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       I have to be impressed at 
the number of items in your inventory. Add to that almost a 1,000 engines. Are 
they all out to see ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Who does all the servicing and upkeep ? I can't 
even keep my collection dusted off properly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      As I mentioned from a collectors 
standpoint I have what I feel is a substantial number of engines (both diesel 
and steam) plus passenger cars made between 1936-1975. While I wish I could have 
large numbers of certain individual items ( George Stock items, Penn 
Line Crusaders, Conover 2-10-2, Trackside Specialties Electrics, Varney pre war 
electric to name a few ) availability and cost prohibit that. Sometimes just 
finding one item ( Rivarossi 4-4-2 streamlined Hiawatha, Walthers pre war 4-6-4 
Baltic ) is next to impossible. Oh by the way I started in HO with a Revell set 
in 1958.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       I give you a lot of credit 
in that you want to build larger. It has to take an enormous amount of time and 
patience. Were you basically a one man operation as far as building the original 
layout ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Kudos to you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  WK2SHR@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 11:17 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad 
  News
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Agree on all points. I have a 
  very large layout here at home with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                  very, very large collection of trains 
  -- over 976+ locos and (still) about
                                                                                                                                                                                                  4000 freight and passengers. My 
  inventory lists 199 cabooses....
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The layout itself is about 1000 sq ft (too 
  small for me now, as I think
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have outgrown it!).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I no longer buy 
  trains. Dont need any! But, every now and then, I do sell
                                                                                                                                                                                                  stuff in order to 
  thin down what I have and let go of the items I rarely 
  ever
                                                                                                                                                                                                  run.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just to make my point on your take, I would venture a 
  guess that nearly
                                                                                                                                                                                                  70% of what I have in the way of both rolling stock -- 
  and structures --
                                                                                                                                                                                                  came to me USED. Most was acquired at either train shows 
  or from estates.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Some of that stuff also now resides on Gary's layout (Gary 
  on this list),
                                                                                                                                                                                                  JSs layout and several other folks whom I've gotten to know 
  and to whom
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've sold (or given) items to over the years.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  FYI: I 
  have been in the hobby for over 51 years now, and still going strong!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  LOL. 
  Thanks for your comments and observations. Greatly 
  appreciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12272
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 11/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: F unit spacing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
What do you use for drawbars?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
www.prrh.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
www.marx-trains.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 11:09 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] F unit spacing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I already use the draw bar method on the Athearn F units. Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12273
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: F unit spacing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  That is exactly what the American Limited kit does, only that works with No.5's, if you get the diaphram kit for Athearn F units, (the diaphrams can be used on other manufacturers F units, such as P1k and the like), it comes with the coupler conversion kit, each kit will allow you to convert 2 A units, or 1 B unit, here is a video I did awhile back called Running The Prospector, in which all F units are running the American Limited coversion kits with diaphrams, only the B units are powered, the A units sport Genesis F unit interiors, battery powered headlights, I've come to really liking the conversion kits and diaphrams from American Limited, I fully intend to use these diaphrams on all my smoothside and lightweight passenger cars as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sun, November 8, 2009 7:40:14 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] F unit spacing

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > As for getting the old BB F units to couple close together, there are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > two options, use a drawbar system, which I use at times, or if you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > want to be able to use these units in different consists, use American 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Limited close coupling kit for Athearn F units, that does bring them 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > to the 3.5 foot clearence between each unit....:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  A Kadee 30 series coupler if mounted to a piece of metal or styrene on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the inside of the rear end, gives acceptable spacing. The new Walthers 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Proto Max ( 920-6005) couplers have even smaller mounting boxes and are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  easier to install. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I found out that even Kadee #18 couplers which consist only of a coupler 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  head with a link on its backside, without a sht in the usual sense , may 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  be attached to a F-unit if used only on wide curves. The problme is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  that they are intended to be attached to the carbody fairly low, not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  easy to do on a
 F.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12274
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Replying to Jim H
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H and Group:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
No, not all locos are on the layout. Most are "stored" in cabinets, old dressers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
low boys or wall units in the train room. Some are still boxed, under the layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I used to cruise the yard sales and buy up old chests of drawers and other
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
types of train-storage cabinets for nickles and dimes. I'd bring these home,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
rework them, build lift-out drawer inserts for them, and use them to store
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
both locos and freight and passenger cars in. I have also built about 10 or 12
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
wall hanging display cabinets. Under the layout are 10 "shoe racks" used to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
store more passenger cars. Most of these cars are now boxed, as many have
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
been offered for sale (I have too many, and I just don't run all of them anymore).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I advertise/offer up items for sale, mostly on the groups, again, when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"feel" like it. Not in any hurry, but sometimes, someone wants something,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and I can often respond.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Most locos get run at least once a year. Before running, they get a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
drop or two of oil on the gears, motor bearing and the wheels are checked
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to see if they need cleaning.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The layout, such as it is, is still being worked on, but much has been completed
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
already, and I run trains almost every night. Normally, 8 trains can run at
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
one time. Last count, there were about 26 completed trains physically on
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the layout. Most of the trains run with double or triple powered locos, except
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
for the push-pull commuter trains, which run with one loco. I will see if
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I can send you some pictures, since someone else has already asked for
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
them too. There are almost no dummy engines here, save one or two E-8Bs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The layout itself follows no particular prototype, and there are few rules.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Rule # 1 is to "have fun"; Rule # 2 is "be nice". Rule # 3 is to treat my wife
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and (Maltese) doggy with kindness and respect.  Other than that, anything goes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I work on the "KISS rule" and the "4 foot rule". KISS is Keep It Simple, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
4 foot rule is that if you are 4 feet away from a moving train, "detail"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don't matter, since it all looks alike anyway. I DO allow and use "MHP" -- Massive
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Hand Power" when all else fails. In addition to Red, Green and Amber signals,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
there are 2 gag signals: blue and orange. Blue means "go faster" and orange
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
means "back up"! ....All in fun.....    We fired the Unions long ago here; we
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(I) are/am not nitpickers, rivet counters or detal freaks. We (I) "make do"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and "improvise" as we go and we have LOTS of fun in the process. There are
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
no "operating" sessions; those are for the purists. We "run" trains here for fun
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and enjoyment, and not to make work for ourselves. Nothing is serious -- it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
all "fun". There are DC and DCC guys here, and a couple of 3 rail AC guys.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Everyone owns at least one HO DC loco. Most DCC guys have a whole stable
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
full of them, since it costs money to convert to DCC, and few have their
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
locos converted (or ever will have them all converted). Several DCC guys 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
have gone back to DC once they have seen how DC works, and that it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
less troublesome to run their trains (no dial up, press 1, program, restart,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
swap decoders, reprogram, et al is involved; DC is a matter of "turn it on" and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"go"...and removes the logic and digital headaches from model railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(Yeah, Yeah, you control locos instead of track, but we have heard that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
argument too many times before, and DCC still gives a lot of trouble to a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
of guys). For all of DCs simplicity, it works very well if you know what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
are doing and can connect 2 wires together). In my mind, DC is only "good"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
if you operate it with a remote, wireless handheld, otherwise, a layout this
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
large would be very difficult to work in DC. There is NO central control panel
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
here, and very few toggle switches. Ops walk with their trains and there are
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
passing sidings. I use Peco Insulfrog turnouts to turn tracks "on and off". Works.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
One thing about having a "large" layout in a dry basement is that I rarely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
if ever, have to clean track. The trains run often enough to where the track
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
almost never needs cleaning, except for the Peco turnout frogs which get
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
an occassional wipe with a Bright Boy. All of the rolling stock has steel (metal)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
wheelsets, mostly from Intermountain -- and that really makes a lot of difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
There are no ceiling fans in the train room (not needed) and almost no dust
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
or dirt (and no foot traffic, except for us train guys). I have the Aztec and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Center Line track cleaning cars, but have never had to use them in nearly 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
years that the layout has been here. By contrast, when I lived in FL, I had
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to use the Center Line car nearly every week with either Goo Gone or Wahl
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Clipper Oil. Not needed here....tracks seem to stay very clean, bright year
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
round.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The layout is DC...with all wiring underneath. Never an electrical problem,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
nor a tracking problem since I built both to be pretty "bullet proof" from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
gitgo. Long passenger trains practically demand near perfect track, hence
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
my very close attention to this aspect of layout building. The layout has been
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
here for a bit less than 4 years now....(we moved in 2005).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Most locos are drawbarred together if they "live" in permanent lashups.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
This is especially true of E and F units and their A-B units.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Most fixed consist passenger trains are also draw-barred with a link and pin
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
system (some have dummy couplers that have been expoxied together that
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
that forms the link and pin draw bar (the link and pin allows cars to be lifted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
out to be uncoupled, serviced, etc), and is a semi-permanent draw bar assembly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
This arrangement prevents "break aways" over track undulations, since long
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
passenger cars tend to buck up and down at their ends over track geometry
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
changes. Freight cars all have Kadees.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Not trying to brag here, but I have always wanted a large layout where long
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
trains with large loco consists could run smoothly and reliably, unattended,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and where there was something besides all flat surface. Such as it is, there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
are 5 levels to the layout to date. Doing "levels" with "curves" is practically
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
an art in itself, especially for passenger trains, since they have to negotiate
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the grades in both direction. Sometimes, I have problems, but mostly, things
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
run pretty well for me, and I am generally happy with the layout. If I had it
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to do over again, I would probably eliminate the 2 peninsulas, since they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the most problematic. I do not have, and did not want any helixes. Tried 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
those once before, and did not like them.....(the layout IS the helix with 1%,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
1.5% and 2% gradients). The trick here is not the "going up" part of the grade,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
but rather, the "coming down" which takes train handling to a new level
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
sometimes (gravity does strange things, more so when on a downgrade
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
which includes a curve or two in the same decline!!).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Still a lot to do on the layout. Still need to finish the ballasting. Most track
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
is now painted (it's all Code 100). Still need to finish both the branch line
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and the logging line. I'm also lazy, and work on the layout "when the spirit
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
moves me". I am not obsessed with either the trains or the layout. It is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
something I enjoy strictly as a hobby, and is an alternative to watching TV,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
drinking or arguing with the wife! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have a lot of friends locally, so usually, there are other modelers here
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to either play, yak, watch RR movies, or just to talk trains. Just about every-
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
one who comes over seems to enjoy themselves, and most of these guys have
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
layouts of their own in their own homes. Mine is likely the largest, and is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
also the "test bed" for their ideas, LOL. All of my "buds" are like me -- in their
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
60s. We share a lot, and swap a lot of items, rolling stock, etc and do "favors"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
for each, such as repairs. I do decal, paint and super detail work for some
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
of the guys who can't do it; others do heavy metal work, some do remotoring
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and one guy is a machinist. 2 are loco engineers locally, one for CSX, the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
other for NS. Another is a chemist, and another is an airline pilot, so there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
is a pleasant mix of skills and experiences here. Many are former military 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
guys from the Viet era.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Hope this (sort of) explains things in a bit more detail from my perspective....
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12275
						From: Model RailRoad Warehouse
						Date: 11/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Red Ball Parts
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Here are the facts of the matter being discussed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Some old time Red Ball ( narrow ga and some passenger molds) were transferred by M Dale Newton to Binkley in the mid 1950s.  BC Models eventually acquired them but not the right to utilize Red Ball name in advertising them. BC alsp acquired 10 select old time [metal & wood only] kits from us.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Perhaps Bittersweet has since obtained BC Models, I do not know. I do know they do not have permission of either newly present or the past trademark owners to advertise any parts as Red Ball.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The Reefer Latch bar and hinges remain in the Red Ball line.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I also do know that the Red Ball tooling and inventory departed Roanoke IN by truck Friday Nov 6, 2009 at 5PM EST on its way to Cheyenne WY. Rights to use the Red Ball name in marketing the Red Ball product line now rest solely with LaBelle Woodworking of Cheyenne (or as noted below).  They intend to return seperarte parts to market as promptly as possible in a move of such magnitude.  (There were several TONS of inventory plus production machinery and over 400 molds/dies ). 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Bethlehem Car Works has marketed copies of select Red Ball bolsters, with permission, in recent years in conjunction with the former Red Ball trucks (once sold to Cape Line by Howell Day). 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Since this is the 70th Anniversary year for Red Ball the sales agreement between LaBelle Woodworking and Model RR Warehouse specifies that the special 70th anniversary kits (open platform passenger cars and pile driver) will be released and sold under Red Ball label by Model RR Warehouse. The Red Ball PRR 50ft DC Flat (in plastic) will also be re-released by MRRW (this month) as a limited run Cannonball Car Shops kit.  The Cannonball Car Shop brand was begun when Red Ball parts were made (in the original molds) in both metal and styrene to avoid confusion. This DC flat production will be the last Cannonball release made in Red Ball molds. LaBelle will produce Red Ball in both formats as appropriate and economically feasible. Cannonball will continue at MRRW as other styrene kits. The former Red Ball LTD Series brass body kits and Signature Series styrene body and brass part kits will be continued by MRRW under the  LTD and SIGNATURE SERIES brands. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 products mentioned here are made in USA. Both firms will keep up to date, factual, info posted at:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
www.mrrwarehouse.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
www.labellemodels.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Merle Rice
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Model RR Warehouse
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Designer, Janitor and Producer of Red Ball since 1976 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(for Wabash Valley Lines,Inc till 1995 or so)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12276
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Replying to Jim H
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                             Thank 
you for the e-mail as to your approach to HO and where those interest lead 
you. I am printing it out to sit back later and reread it. I 
especially like your kiss rule. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I happen to be more of a loner 
in the sense that I live " in the sticks". Have not met many with interest in 
trains locally ( 35 miles radius ) let alone HO except two large train 
clubs who will only allow certain equipment, model certain railroads and limit 
other expression. Add to that my area, collecting, limits my 
contact.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     My motto    
 " Do your own thing and enjoy doing it "     and I do. 
Again thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  WK2SHR@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 5:42 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Replying to Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H and Group:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  No, not all locos 
  are on the layout. Most are "stored" in cabinets, old dressers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  low boys or 
  wall units in the train room. Some are still boxed, under the layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I 
  used to cruise the yard sales and buy up old chests of drawers and 
  other
                                                                                                                                                                                                  types of train-storage cabinets for nickles and dimes. I'd bring 
  these home,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  rework them, build lift-out drawer inserts for them, and use 
  them to store
                                                                                                                                                                                                  both locos and freight and passenger cars in. I have also 
  built about 10 or 12
                                                                                                                                                                                                  wall hanging display cabinets. Under the layout are 10 
  "shoe racks" used to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  store more passenger cars. Most of these cars are now 
  boxed, as many have
                                                                                                                                                                                                  been offered for sale (I have too many, and I just 
  don't run all of them anymore).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I advertise/offer up items for sale, mostly 
  on the groups, again, when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  "feel" like it. Not in any hurry, but 
  sometimes, someone wants something,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and I can often respond.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Most 
  locos get run at least once a year. Before running, they get a small
                                                                                                                                                                                                  drop 
  or two of oil on the gears, motor bearing and the wheels are checked
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to see 
  if they need cleaning.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The layout, such as it is, is still being worked 
  on, but much has been completed
                                                                                                                                                                                                  already, and I run trains almost every 
  night. Normally, 8 trains can run at
                                                                                                                                                                                                  one time. Last count, there were about 
  26 completed trains physically on
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the layout. Most of the trains run with 
  double or triple powered locos, except
                                                                                                                                                                                                  for the push-pull commuter trains, 
  which run with one loco. I will see if
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I can send you some pictures, since 
  someone else has already asked for
                                                                                                                                                                                                  them too. There are almost no dummy 
  engines here, save one or two E-8Bs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The layout itself follows no 
  particular prototype, and there are few rules.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Rule # 1 is to "have 
  fun"; Rule # 2 is "be nice". Rule # 3 is to treat my wife
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and (Maltese) 
  doggy with kindness and respect.  Other than that, anything 
  goes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I work on the "KISS rule" and the "4 foot rule". KISS is Keep It 
  Simple, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  4 foot rule is that if you are 4 feet away from a moving 
  train, "detail"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  don't matter, since it all looks alike anyway. I DO allow 
  and use "MHP" -- Massive
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hand Power" when all else fails. In addition to 
  Red, Green and Amber signals,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  there are 2 gag signals: blue and orange. 
  Blue means "go faster" and orange
                                                                                                                                                                                                  means "back up"! ....All in 
  fun.....    We fired the Unions long ago here; we
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (I) are/am 
  not nitpickers, rivet counters or detal freaks. We (I) "make do"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and 
  "improvise" as we go and we have LOTS of fun in the process. There are
                                                                                                                                                                                                  no 
  "operating" sessions; those are for the purists. We "run" trains here for 
  fun
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and enjoyment, and not to make work for ourselves. Nothing is serious 
  -- it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                  all "fun". There are DC and DCC guys here, and a couple of 3 rail 
  AC guys.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Everyone owns at least one HO DC loco. Most DCC guys have a 
  whole stable
                                                                                                                                                                                                  full of them, since it costs money to convert to DCC, and few 
  have their
                                                                                                                                                                                                  locos converted (or ever will have them all converted). Several 
  DCC guys 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  have gone back to DC once they have seen how DC works, and that 
  it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  less troublesome to run their trains (no dial up, press 1, program, 
  restart,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  swap decoders, reprogram, et al is involved; DC is a matter of 
  "turn it on" and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  "go"...and removes the logic and digital headaches from 
  model railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (Yeah, Yeah, you control locos instead of track, but we 
  have heard that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  argument too many times before, and DCC still gives a lot 
  of trouble to a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                  of guys). For all of DCs simplicity, it works very well 
  if you know what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are doing and can connect 2 wires together). In my 
  mind, DC is only "good"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  if you operate it with a remote, wireless handheld, 
  otherwise, a layout this
                                                                                                                                                                                                  large would be very difficult to work in DC. There 
  is NO central control panel
                                                                                                                                                                                                  here, and very few toggle switches. Ops walk 
  with their trains and there are
                                                                                                                                                                                                  passing sidings. I use Peco Insulfrog 
  turnouts to turn tracks "on and off". Works.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  One thing about having a 
  "large" layout in a dry basement is that I rarely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  if ever, have to clean 
  track. The trains run often enough to where the track
                                                                                                                                                                                                  almost never needs 
  cleaning, except for the Peco turnout frogs which get
                                                                                                                                                                                                  an occassional wipe 
  with a Bright Boy. All of the rolling stock has steel (metal)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  wheelsets, 
  mostly from Intermountain -- and that really makes a lot of 
  difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  There are no ceiling fans in the train room (not needed) and 
  almost no dust
                                                                                                                                                                                                  or dirt (and no foot traffic, except for us train guys). I 
  have the Aztec and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Center Line track cleaning cars, but have never had to 
  use them in nearly 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                  years that the layout has been here. By contrast, when 
  I lived in FL, I had
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to use the Center Line car nearly every week with 
  either Goo Gone or Wahl
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Clipper Oil. Not needed here....tracks seem to stay 
  very clean, bright year
                                                                                                                                                                                                  round.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The layout is DC...with all wiring 
  underneath. Never an electrical problem,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  nor a tracking problem since I 
  built both to be pretty "bullet proof" from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  gitgo. Long passenger 
  trains practically demand near perfect track, hence
                                                                                                                                                                                                  my very close attention 
  to this aspect of layout building. The layout has been
                                                                                                                                                                                                  here for a bit less 
  than 4 years now....(we moved in 2005).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Most locos are drawbarred 
  together if they "live" in permanent lashups.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  This is especially true of E 
  and F units and their A-B units.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Most fixed consist passenger trains 
  are also draw-barred with a link and pin
                                                                                                                                                                                                  system (some have dummy couplers 
  that have been expoxied together that
                                                                                                                                                                                                  that forms the link and pin draw bar 
  (the link and pin allows cars to be lifted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  out to be uncoupled, serviced, 
  etc), and is a semi-permanent draw bar assembly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  This arrangement prevents 
  "break aways" over track undulations, since long
                                                                                                                                                                                                  passenger cars tend to 
  buck up and down at their ends over track geometry
                                                                                                                                                                                                  changes. Freight cars 
  all have Kadees.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Not trying to brag here, but I have always wanted a 
  large layout where long
                                                                                                                                                                                                  trains with large loco consists could run smoothly 
  and reliably, unattended,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and where there was something besides all flat 
  surface. Such as it is, there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are 5 levels to the layout to date. Doing 
  "levels" with "curves" is practically
                                                                                                                                                                                                  an art in itself, especially for 
  passenger trains, since they have to negotiate
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the grades in both 
  direction. Sometimes, I have problems, but mostly, things
                                                                                                                                                                                                  run pretty well 
  for me, and I am generally happy with the layout. If I had it
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to do over 
  again, I would probably eliminate the 2 peninsulas, since they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the most 
  problematic. I do not have, and did not want any helixes. Tried 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  those once 
  before, and did not like them.....(the layout IS the helix with 1%,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  1.5% 
  and 2% gradients). The trick here is not the "going up" part of the 
  grade,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  but rather, the "coming down" which takes train handling to a new 
  level
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sometimes (gravity does strange things, more so when on a 
  downgrade
                                                                                                                                                                                                  which includes a curve or two in the same 
  decline!!).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Still a lot to do on the layout. Still need to finish the 
  ballasting. Most track
                                                                                                                                                                                                  is now painted (it's all Code 100). Still need to 
  finish both the branch line
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and the logging line. I'm also lazy, and work 
  on the layout "when the spirit
                                                                                                                                                                                                  moves me". I am not obsessed with either the 
  trains or the layout. It is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  something I enjoy strictly as a hobby, and is 
  an alternative to watching TV,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  drinking or arguing with the wife! 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I 
  have a lot of friends locally, so usually, there are other modelers here
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to 
  either play, yak, watch RR movies, or just to talk trains. Just about 
  every-
                                                                                                                                                                                                  one who comes over seems to enjoy themselves, and most of these guys 
  have
                                                                                                                                                                                                  layouts of their own in their own homes. Mine is likely the largest, 
  and is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  also the "test bed" for their ideas, LOL. All of my "buds" are like 
  me -- in their
                                                                                                                                                                                                  60s. We share a lot, and swap a lot of items, rolling stock, 
  etc and do "favors"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  for each, such as repairs. I do decal, paint and super 
  detail work for some
                                                                                                                                                                                                  of the guys who can't do it; others do heavy metal 
  work, some do remotoring
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and one guy is a machinist. 2 are loco engineers 
  locally, one for CSX, the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  other for NS. Another is a chemist, and another 
  is an airline pilot, so there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  is a pleasant mix of skills and experiences 
  here. Many are former military 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  guys from the Viet era.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hope this 
  (sort of) explains things in a bit more detail from my 
  perspective. ...

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Regards,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12277
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 11/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Replying to Jim H
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


  
  

 
Where are you located?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
===================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
WK2SHR@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H and Group:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
No, not all locos are on the layout. Most are "stored" in cabinets, old
dressers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
low boys or wall units in the train room. Some are still boxed, under
the layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I used to cruise the yard sales and buy up old chests of drawers and
other
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
types of train-storage cabinets for nickles and dimes. I'd bring these
home,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
rework them, build lift-out drawer inserts for them, and use them to
store
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
both locos and freight and passenger cars in. I have also built about
10 or 12
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
wall hanging display cabinets. Under the layout are 10 "shoe racks"
used to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
store more passenger cars. Most of these cars are now boxed, as many
have
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
been offered for sale (I have too many, and I just don't run all of
them anymore).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I advertise/offer up items for sale, mostly on the groups, again, when I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"feel" like it. Not in any hurry, but sometimes, someone wants
something,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and I can often respond.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Most locos get run at least once a year. Before running, they get a
small
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
drop or two of oil on the gears, motor bearing and the wheels are
checked
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to see if they need cleaning.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The layout, such as it is, is still being worked on, but much has been
completed
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
already, and I run trains almost every night. Normally, 8 trains can
run at
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
one time. Last count, there were about 26 completed trains physically on
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the layout. Most of the trains run with double or triple powered locos,
except
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
for the push-pull commuter trains, which run with one loco. I will see
if
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I can send you some pictures, since someone else has already asked for
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
them too. There are almost no dummy engines here, save one or two E-8Bs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The layout itself follows no particular prototype, and there are few
rules.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Rule # 1 is to "have fun"; Rule # 2 is "be nice". Rule # 3 is to treat
my wife
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and (Maltese) doggy with kindness and respect.  Other than that,
anything goes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I work on the "KISS rule" and the "4 foot rule". KISS is Keep It
Simple, and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
4 foot rule is that if you are 4 feet away from a moving train, "detail"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don't matter, since it all looks alike anyway. I DO allow and use "MHP"
-- Massive
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Hand Power" when all else fails. In addition to Red, Green and Amber
signals,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
there are 2 gag signals: blue and orange. Blue means "go faster" and
orange
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
means "back up"! ....All in fun.....    We fired the Unions long ago
here; we
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(I) are/am not nitpickers, rivet counters or detal freaks. We (I) "make
do"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and "improvise" as we go and we have LOTS of fun in the process. There
are
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
no "operating" sessions; those are for the purists. We "run" trains
here for fun
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and enjoyment, and not to make work for ourselves. Nothing is serious
-- it's
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
all "fun". There are DC and DCC guys here, and a couple of 3 rail AC
guys.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Everyone owns at least one HO DC loco. Most DCC guys have a whole stable
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
full of them, since it costs money to convert to DCC, and few have their
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
locos converted (or ever will have them all converted). Several DCC
guys 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
have gone back to DC once they have seen how DC works, and that it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
less troublesome to run their trains (no dial up, press 1, program,
restart,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
swap decoders, reprogram, et al is involved; DC is a matter of "turn it
on" and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"go"...and removes the logic and digital headaches from model
railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(Yeah, Yeah, you control locos instead of track, but we have heard that
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
argument too many times before, and DCC still gives a lot of trouble to
a lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
of guys). For all of DCs simplicity, it works very well if you know
what you
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
are doing and can connect 2 wires together). In my mind, DC is only
"good"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
if you operate it with a remote, wireless handheld, otherwise, a layout
this
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
large would be very difficult to work in DC. There is NO central
control panel
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
here, and very few toggle switches. Ops walk with their trains and
there are
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
passing sidings. I use Peco Insulfrog turnouts to turn tracks "on and
off". Works.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
One thing about having a "large" layout in a dry basement is that I
rarely,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
if ever, have to clean track. The trains run often enough to where the
track
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
almost never needs cleaning, except for the Peco turnout frogs which get
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
an occassional wipe with a Bright Boy. All of the rolling stock has
steel (metal)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
wheelsets, mostly from Intermountain -- and that really makes a lot of
difference.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
There are no ceiling fans in the train room (not needed) and almost no
dust
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
or dirt (and no foot traffic, except for us train guys). I have the
Aztec and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Center Line track cleaning cars, but have never had to use them in
nearly 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
years that the layout has been here. By contrast, when I lived in FL, I
had
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to use the Center Line car nearly every week with either Goo Gone or
Wahl
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Clipper Oil. Not needed here....tracks seem to stay very clean, bright
year
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
round.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The layout is DC...with all wiring underneath. Never an electrical
problem,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
nor a tracking problem since I built both to be pretty "bullet proof"
from the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
gitgo. Long passenger trains practically demand near perfect track,
hence
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
my very close attention to this aspect of layout building. The layout
has been
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
here for a bit less than 4 years now....(we moved in 2005).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Most locos are drawbarred together if they "live" in permanent lashups.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
This is especially true of E and F units and their A-B units.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Most fixed consist passenger trains are also draw-barred with a link
and pin
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
system (some have dummy couplers that have been expoxied together that
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
that forms the link and pin draw bar (the link and pin allows cars to
be lifted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
out to be uncoupled, serviced, etc), and is a semi-permanent draw bar
assembly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
This arrangement prevents "break aways" over track undulations, since
long
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
passenger cars tend to buck up and down at their ends over track
geometry
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
changes. Freight cars all have Kadees.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Not trying to brag here, but I have always wanted a large layout where
long
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
trains with large loco consists could run smoothly and reliably,
unattended,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and where there was something besides all flat surface. Such as it is,
there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
are 5 levels to the layout to date. Doing "levels" with "curves" is
practically
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
an art in itself, especially for passenger trains, since they have to
negotiate
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the grades in both direction. Sometimes, I have problems, but mostly,
things
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
run pretty well for me, and I am generally happy with the layout. If I
had it
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to do over again, I would probably eliminate the 2 peninsulas, since
they are
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the most problematic. I do not have, and did not want any helixes.
Tried 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
those once before, and did not like them.....(the layout IS the helix
with 1%,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
1.5% and 2% gradients). The trick here is not the "going up" part of
the grade,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
but rather, the "coming down" which takes train handling to a new level
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
sometimes (gravity does strange things, more so when on a downgrade
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
which includes a curve or two in the same decline!!).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Still a lot to do on the layout. Still need to finish the ballasting.
Most track
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
is now painted (it's all Code 100). Still need to finish both the
branch line
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and the logging line. I'm also lazy, and work on the layout "when the
spirit
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
moves me". I am not obsessed with either the trains or the layout. It is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
something I enjoy strictly as a hobby, and is an alternative to
watching TV,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
drinking or arguing with the wife! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have a lot of friends locally, so usually, there are other modelers
here
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to either play, yak, watch RR movies, or just to talk trains. Just
about every-
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
one who comes over seems to enjoy themselves, and most of these guys
have
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
layouts of their own in their own homes. Mine is likely the largest,
and is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
also the "test bed" for their ideas, LOL. All of my "buds" are like me
-- in their
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
60s. We share a lot, and swap a lot of items, rolling stock, etc and do
"favors"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
for each, such as repairs. I do decal, paint and super detail work for
some
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
of the guys who can't do it; others do heavy metal work, some do
remotoring
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and one guy is a machinist. 2 are loco engineers locally, one for CSX,
the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
other for NS. Another is a chemist, and another is an airline pilot, so
there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
is a pleasant mix of skills and experiences here. Many are former
military 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
guys from the Viet era.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Hope this (sort of) explains things in a bit more detail from my
perspective. ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12278
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: F unit spacing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Steve:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Quick reply. . . .
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Re: Draw bars
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
a. Originally, strip styrene. I will have to dig up the specifics as to part #.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(not handy at the moment, as I am away from the work bench and the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
layout room).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
b. I have also used old diabetic test strips (which work well).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(I am a diabetic, and usually, you go thru a ton of these each month;
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the strips are fairly cheap, made of plastic, can be bought by anyone
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(no Rx required), are available at any Drug Store, and come in packs of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
50 or 100, depending on the brand you want. They are close to the right
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
length/width, are thin enough and have sufficient tensile strength to last a
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
thousand years; they also flex nicely in use. They seem to have been "made"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
for HO passenger car draw bars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If you decide to go this route, check the SHAPE of the strips before you
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
buy. You want the plain straight, rectangular ones only. Some of the newer
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"designer" ones are no good for our use. Shapes are too wide, oblong, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Designed for folks with fat fingers, poor eye sight, etc, or prissy females.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
c. The latest trick has been to use Walthers dummy (plastic) knuckle couplers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
which have been epoxied together at the knuckle with 30 minute expoxy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(do NOT use the 5 minute stuff; it doesn't hold up).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Actually, I got THAT idea from Gary -- (this list).....it works really well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
For each install, you will have to measure the distance to leave between each
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
car (this is to allow necessary "swing" on curves and to keep diaphrams from
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
rubbing). I usually leave about 1/16" or so between car diaphrams, although
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
if you have really wide curves, you can go with 1/32".
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The draw bar also acts like a "tight lock" coupler, in that there is no slop
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
or slack action. This is especially important when long passenger trains
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
are coming downgrade and cars tend to push against each other (and push
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
each other off the track, especially on a curving descent). "Tight Lock"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
coupler action elmininates the bucking and shoving downgrade and makes
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the train behave like a single, articulated unit. Works for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Draw bars are attached to the underbody of the car. I do not use talgo
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
or truck mounted draw bars. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Normal procedure, once measurements have been taken (usually by eye ball,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
KISS method), is to attach the draw bar to the TRAILING end of each car
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
with a 1/2"   2 x 56 screw (Athearn or Micro Mark brand, or whatever is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
available). This is the "hook" end.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Drill a small hole in the far end of the draw bar.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
You can ususally use a brass brad, headless 2 x 56 screw or other item
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
for the "pin" which is either screwed or ACCd into the underbody of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
next car. This pin then fits into the plastic draw bar strip.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Side Note:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The reason you attach the draw bar to the TRAILING end of the car is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
that you want the front end of headend cars (baggage and RPOs) to be
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
left "as is" so a regular knuckle coupler can be attached, either Kadee or
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
dummy. This is the end that connects to the locos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Observation cars get a Kadee or dummy knuckle coupler.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Non-obs cars that ride at the rear of the train, get the same as the obs,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
since this car is the "regular" consist car. (It is also the one that gets
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the end of train "markers", drum head, closed gate and anyting else needed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
End of side note. . . 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Same method applies if you use epoxied dummy couplers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Note that "where" you drill the holes in each car underbody depends
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
on how tight your cars are, and how long your cars are. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The main thing is to make sure they look good and perform to a high 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
standard without malfunction. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I use both full length and 72' shortened passenger cars (usually in separate
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
trains). The draw bars work well in both. I don't mix cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The shorter cars are used to make LONGER trains which are very impressive
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to watch. Specifically,  Athearn HW cars and Model Power (Frateschi) Budd
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
cars. Very few ConCor cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
There is one or two trains made up of older LIMA streamlined passenger
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
cars which also have the draw bars, and which perform very well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have added draw bars to IHC, Rivarossi and some of the WAlthers Bi-Level
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Commuter cars with good results. These are all full length cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Normal procedure is that REA Express cars to NOT get the draw bar treatment
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
since these must be switched out of trains. They get either Kadees our Walthers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
dummy knuckle couplers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I run several MAIL trains in addition to passenger trains. The mail trains get
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
dummy couplers. These consist of RPOs, baggage cars, REA Express cars
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and always one rider coach on the rear end. There are 7 or 8 mail trains which
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
run like hot shot freight trains. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
There are some other trains of note here: Wine Train (1); Beer Train;
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
2 trains made up solely of 40 ft reefers (ART and PFE mostly). These have
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Kadees. (The Reefer trains are separate from the Wine and Beer trains).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Freight trains consist of general freight (mixed freight);
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
34 foot hopper car trains (80 cars to a train, a bit hard to handle at times)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
25 car stock car train c/o cattle cars, sheep cars and double-deck chicken
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
haulers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
There is one train made up of about 30 tank cars (mostly 40 footers from
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the steam era, with some a bit shorter).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
All of these trains have Kadee couplers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Most locos have either Kadees or Dummy couplers and most A-B sets
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
are connected via draw bar.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The draw bars are still being fabricated and installed on other trains;
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
this is an ongoing project, along with ballasting, scenicking, et al.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If you have never tried the draw bar method before -- experiment with it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
It takes a little bit of trial and error to "get it right", but once you get the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
hang of it, you may be pleased. Be sure to have a good supply of 2 X 56
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
screws and various types of washers and spacers handy to level things out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
With draw bars, you don't have to worry too much about "coupler height"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
since most draw bar installs will be uniformly underneath the carbody.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"Washers" between the swinging draw bar at the screw connect end allow
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
smooth movement of the draw bar in cars that may have cavities or other
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
contours that might impede draw bar movement during operation (as with
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
some of the Model Power cars).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Hope this helps,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12279
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Replying to Jim H
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Greenville (Mauldin), SC
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12280
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Replying to the last paragraph, re: the E unit body shells.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Do you still have that BN E unit shell? If so, wanna send it back?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Supposely, Intermountain released some FEC FP-7s last year. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
never able to acquire them (by the time I found out about them, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
were already sold out). Of course, the LHS refuses to order/stock trains,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
so that didn't help any. . .  .
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12281
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Darn, I think I traded that one off, I had ordered a motor for it and everything, then someone offered me a Mikado for it, a Mehano at that, so I couldn't turn that down...:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Do you need one of the E8 shells back?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sun, November 8, 2009 10:56:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More Bad News

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Replying to the last paragraph, re: the E unit body shells.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Do you still have that BN E unit shell? If so, wanna send it back?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Supposely, Intermountain released some FEC FP-7s last year. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                  never able to acquire them (by the time I found out about them, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  were already sold out). Of course, the LHS refuses to order/stock trains,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  so that didn't help any. . .  .


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12282
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Replying to Jim H
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


  

 
I was hoping you were closer to me... Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Staton in VA. BEACH, VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  =============================================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
WK2SHR@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Greenville (Mauldin), SC
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12283
						From: RalphB
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just returned from the annual model show at the New York State Fairgrounds in Syracuse.  (Although it's advertised as the Great New York State Train Fair, it has always included large displays by the Hoxie Tucker Ring of the Circus Modelers of America, and now even includes a display by the local chapter of the International Plastic Modelers Society.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Anyway, my club set up its largest-ever HO modular layout and the DCC gremlins reared their ugly heads.  While we were able to get the two mainlines operating reliably, the "branch" line was down 99 per cent of the time.  When it wasn't completely dead, it had polarity reversal issues that no one could find or fix.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Fortunately, the Digitrax system we use allows one train at a time to be run on straight DC, and there are two of us in the club who prefer to run that way; we just can't run on the mainlines at the same time.  And while most of the locomotives may be DCC-equipped, the cars behind them can be anything from the '50s to the present.  I tend to run a lot of MDC and Athearn Blue Box cars, and one of the best-running and best-looking trains on the layout is a string of New Haven-painted Athearn BB 72-foot passenger cars (even on 30-inch-plus radius curves, the fancy new Rapido cars didn't track worth a tinker's dam).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'll stick with DC.  It's simple, it's reliable, and it would be way too costly to put decoders into all my locomotives.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, WK2SHR@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Several DCC guys 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> have gone back to DC once they have seen how DC works, and that it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> less troublesome to run their trains (no dial up, press 1, program, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> restart,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> swap decoders, reprogram, et al is involved; DC is a matter of "turn it on" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> "go"...and removes the logic and digital headaches from model railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> (Yeah, Yeah, you control locos instead of track, but we have heard that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> argument too many times before, and DCC still gives a lot of trouble to a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> of guys). 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12284
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  .              
After hearing a number of comments both about types of controls ( DCC, DC, 
Decoders, Etc.) plus the loss of companies manufacturing HO ( Mantua, 
Bowser, Athearn, MDC, Etc.) with everything being made poorly, but 
costly, in China I'm starting to think some of my retro ideas are not 
that bad. While I'm sure many have different thoughts and ways then 
these ideas I'm starting to wonder if going back in time is such a bad 
idea. In fact the way things are going you might not have a choice. That is 
unless you have unlimited resources to do it or have someone do it for 
you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       In 1958 as a teenager 
without much money I always dreamed of having an HO empire. It started with a 
simple set by Revell and it has grown from there. While I am mostly a collector 
of vintage items I had built a 10' x 11' layout mainly using ideas, products and 
so forth from that early period of the 60's when I could afford some of what I 
wanted. Making a move to a new home and having to leave that first layout has 
always been a source of irritation. ( I had made it to permanent and decided not 
to rip it apart but left intact for the new owners 12 year 
old ).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Lately I have decided to 
rebuild my retro type layout incorporating things from the time period from 
1958 through the 60's and early 70's. Brass track,old style power packs/ 
transformers,older buildings plus vintage equipment as it originally came. As 
someone mentioned his 4 foot rule applies for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Starting to 
feel that a lot of people will be returning to older vintage equipment, 
especially steam and diesel power, whether original or modified depending 
on each individuals preference. Also as to how these trains will 
be run. Straight DC power transformers with limited bells and whistles 
(momentum or pulse power maybe), the old block system wired track and no 
electronic wonders to create havoc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm 
sure many won't agree and that's fine. It's my thoughts only but again as a 
person mentioned his kiss theory which I like the best. KEEP IT 
SIMPLE.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                        . 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  RalphB 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 2:03 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DCC (was 
  Replying to Jim H)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just returned from the annual model show at the New York State 
  Fairgrounds in Syracuse. (Although it's advertised as the Great New York State 
  Train Fair, it has always included large displays by the Hoxie Tucker Ring of 
  the Circus Modelers of America, and now even includes a display by the local 
  chapter of the International Plastic Modelers Society.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, my club 
  set up its largest-ever HO modular layout and the DCC gremlins reared their 
  ugly heads. While we were able to get the two mainlines operating reliably, 
  the "branch" line was down 99 per cent of the time. When it wasn't completely 
  dead, it had polarity reversal issues that no one could find or 
  fix.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Fortunately, the Digitrax system we use allows one train at a time 
  to be run on straight DC, and there are two of us in the club who prefer to 
  run that way; we just can't run on the mainlines at the same time. And while 
  most of the locomotives may be DCC-equipped, the cars behind them can be 
  anything from the '50s to the present. I tend to run a lot of MDC and Athearn 
  Blue Box cars, and one of the best-running and best-looking trains on the 
  layout is a string of New Haven-painted Athearn BB 72-foot passenger cars 
  (even on 30-inch-plus radius curves, the fancy new Rapido cars didn't track 
  worth a tinker's dam).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'll stick with DC. It's simple, it's reliable, 
  and it would be way too costly to put decoders into all my 
  locomotives.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  WK2SHR@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Several DCC guys 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > have gone back to 
  DC once they have seen how DC works, and that it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > less troublesome 
  to run their trains (no dial up, press 1, program, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > restart,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  swap decoders, reprogram, et al is involved; DC is a matter of "turn it on" 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > "go"...and removes the logic and digital headaches from 
  model railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > (Yeah, Yeah, you control locos instead of track, 
  but we have heard that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > argument too many times before, and DCC still 
  gives a lot of trouble to a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of guys).

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12285
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


  

 
Jim, the title of the group says it all...  "Vintage HO". 
All of my HO is old equipment with some Kadee couplers and running
straight DC power.  That's all I have, want or need.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ==================================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  .              After hearing a
number of comments both about types of controls ( DCC, DC, Decoders,
Etc.) plus the loss of companies manufacturing HO ( Mantua, Bowser,
Athearn, MDC, Etc.) with everything being made poorly, but costly, in
China I'm starting to think some of my retro ideas are not that bad.
While I'm sure many have different thoughts and ways then these
ideas I'm starting to wonder if going back in time is such a bad idea.
In fact the way things are going you might not have a choice. That is
unless you have unlimited resources to do it or have someone do it for
you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                       In 1958 as a teenager without
much money I always dreamed of having an HO empire. It started with a
simple set by Revell and it has grown from there. While I am mostly a
collector of vintage items I had built a 10' x 11' layout mainly using
ideas, products and so forth from that early period of the 60's when I
could afford some of what I wanted. Making a move to a new home and
having to leave that first layout has always been a source of
irritation. ( I had made it to permanent and decided not to rip it
apart but left intact for the new owners 12 year old ).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                       Lately I have decided to
rebuild my retro type layout incorporating things from the time period
from 1958 through the 60's and early 70's. Brass track,old style power
packs/ transformers, older buildings plus vintage equipment as it
originally came. As someone mentioned his 4 foot rule applies for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Starting to feel that a lot of
people will be returning to older vintage equipment, especially steam
and diesel power, whether original or modified depending on each
individuals preference. Also as to how these trains will be run.
Straight DC power transformers with limited bells and whistles
(momentum or pulse power maybe), the old block system wired track and
no electronic wonders to create havoc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm sure many won't agree
and that's fine. It's my thoughts only but again as a person mentioned
his kiss theory which I like the best. KEEP IT SIMPLE.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                        . 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
    RalphB 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent:
Monday, November 09, 2009 2:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject:
[vintageHO] Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just returned from the annual model show at the New York State
Fairgrounds in Syracuse. (Although it's advertised as the Great New
York State Train Fair, it has always included large displays by the
Hoxie Tucker Ring of the Circus Modelers of America, and now even
includes a display by the local chapter of the International Plastic
Modelers Society.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Anyway, my club set up its largest-ever HO modular layout and the DCC
gremlins reared their ugly heads. While we were able to get the two
mainlines operating reliably, the "branch" line was down 99 per cent of
the time. When it wasn't completely dead, it had polarity reversal
issues that no one could find or fix.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Fortunately, the Digitrax system we use allows one train at a time to
be run on straight DC, and there are two of us in the club who prefer
to run that way; we just can't run on the mainlines at the same time.
And while most of the locomotives may be DCC-equipped, the cars behind
them can be anything from the '50s to the present. I tend to run a lot
of MDC and Athearn Blue Box cars, and one of the best-running and
best-looking trains on the layout is a string of New Haven-painted
Athearn BB 72-foot passenger cars (even on 30-inch-plus radius curves,
the fancy new Rapido cars didn't track worth a tinker's dam).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'll stick with DC. It's simple, it's reliable, and it would be way too
costly to put decoders into all my locomotives.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
WK2SHR@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Several DCC guys 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> have gone back to DC once they have seen how DC works, and that it
is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> less troublesome to run their trains (no dial up, press 1,
program, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> restart,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> swap decoders, reprogram, et al is involved; DC is a matter of
"turn it on" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> "go"...and removes the logic and digital headaches from model
railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> (Yeah, Yeah, you control locos instead of track, but we have heard
that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> argument too many times before, and DCC still gives a lot of
trouble to a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> of guys).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12286
						From: Thomas Donahue
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Vintage Craftsman Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I took Daniel up on his offer (see below).  The prices for the individual craftsman kits and for shipping were more than fair.  The kits arrived safely today.  They were well-packaged in bubble-wrap, and promptly sent.  The kits look great (and look complete), especially the Union Ice Company!  Thanks, Daniel.  Just thought the rest of you might like to know, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Tom Donahue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Melbourne, FL
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: DanielH <danielhogue@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sat, October 31, 2009 9:28:10 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Craftsman Kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a fairly large collection of older craftsman kits by companies such as Suydam, Campbell, Ayres, etc that I need to sell for financial reasons. If anyone is interested, please send me an email and I will reply with a list. (I am hoping to get about 30-50% of what the kits currently go for.) The kits are all in the original boxes, and complete.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12287
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  You might try Tom at trolleysndollies@...
that is where I got mine.  He may still have one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
 vintageHO @yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO @yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WK2SHR@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009
10:56 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO @yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [
 vintageHO ] Re: More Bad News
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   




                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Replying to the last paragraph, re: the E unit body shells.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Do you still have that BN E unit shell? If so, wanna send it back?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Supposely, Intermountain released some FEC FP-7s last year. I was
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
never able to acquire them (by the time I found out about them, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
were already sold out). Of course, the LHS refuses to order/stock trains,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
so that didn't help any. . .  .
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12288
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  HI Chuck:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Many thanks. Send him a note to see if any of these locos are still available.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
How do you like them so far? I have a few of the Intermountain F units and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
they seem to be pretty decent.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12289
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Well, I must agree. "vintageHO" isn't really all THAT bad! Even in this day
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
with all the high tech gizmos (DCC) and the over-detailed locos. Some of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the "old" stuff is still pretty decent and a LOT of fun to tinker with!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
It's also FUN to build things, like home-made interiors for passenger cars,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
rather than "buying" the drop in stuff, or getting a car with everything already
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
done for you. It's also amazing what one can do with a little bit of cardboard,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
scissors, and glue! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Every time I use my really OLD trains, I am reminded that the hobby still
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
needs -- and these old engines toggle -- (my) IMAGINATION. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Tanks for the memories! LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12290
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Ralph:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Great post! Enjoyed hearing about the "old" stuff......i.e. the BB Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
New Haven cars. I have those too. Some of the them have the orange window
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
band, but I did paint a few of them with a green window band. Also, I painted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the roofs black. These are hauled with DL-109s or the Frateschi Co-Co (EP-3 or
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
EP-4 lookalike) electric. Sometimes, these cars end up in a PRR train and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
are handled with a GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
As for the DCC comment -- no doubt DCC is great when it works. A friend
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
of mine has an all-DCC layout, and has a lot of trouble getting stuff to work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
It works - sometimes, for awhile, but then, gremlins creep in. More often
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
than not, he runs his layout on DC! I think DCC is just too complicated for
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
many guys and they have a great deal of trouble working with it. Early on,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I tried DCC, but found I didn't really like it for the type of operation that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
was used to. Great for large layouts, big clubs and public displays, but not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
much good for small home layouts where DC is more likely to work better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(I think DCC is great for multi-operator layouts and layouts where there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
are more than 2 locos on 2 different trains being operated; less than that,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
stick with DC). Too much has been made of DCC. In most cases, I am finding
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
that DCC isn't really all that necessary for most home layouts, most of which
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
are generally smaller than 12 x 12 feet (a small bedroom in the house).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
My thoughts,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12291
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Replying to Jim H
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
No, sorry! I am on the far side of the Moon these days!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I used to be further away, in Melbourne, FL, LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12292
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  HI Gary:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
No problem on the BN E9 shell. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
No, I have several E-8s shells and a box full of ConCor E-7 body shells for
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
various RRs. One of these days, I will find a use for them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12293
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I like them.  The screen could be
better to my mind and the windshield wipers do not seem right, but they run
nice and the sound is good.  DC here, not DCC, so can not comment on that
part.  I just ran them around equally forwards and backwards and back in
their boxes for now.  Need to get more layout done before they come out
again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
 vintageHO @yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO @yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WK2SHR@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009
5:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO @yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [
 vintageHO ] Re: More Bad News
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   




                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  HI Chuck:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Many thanks. Send him a note to see if any of these locos are still available.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
How do you like them so far? I have a few of the Intermountain F units and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
they seem to be pretty decent.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12294
						From: John Barlow
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hallelujah! God be praised! Amen!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have had DCC thrown at me at one shop here as if it was the "wave of the future" and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  the "salvation of the (model railroading) hobby."  "Horse hockey!" It is as susceptible to viruses as any computer on line...and I have yet to hear that there is any anti-viral program devised to clean the mess up. It takes, as I was told, one "contaminated" locomotive...and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  let the fun begin.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The gizmo types and big clubs...fine and dandy...but John Allen (Gorre and Daphetid in HO) and Ed Costello (Saint Anne in OO; even to fashioning his on prototypical rail in his time) and countless others built artistic masterpieces without the DCC dribble...and with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  self-operating control blocks (I saw Costello's in 1969 at his Philadelphia suburban home.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Cell phones don't impress me, not when my friend's dinky piece of crap wouldn't work at the railroad station at Branford, Connecticut, on July 3, 2009, because the company did not service New England states...and there was/is no pay phone there to reach his brother because Amtrak or the CTDOT believed all passengers have locally acceptable/ working cell phones. I also had my share of trouble with jackass servors with this "miracle of modern communication" I'm writing this on...like outsourcing dial-up, which I'm limited to by my apartment building's wiring design, to some sing-songy type service center on a certain distant sub-continent. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I say live and let live, but among these New Age model railoaders are Fascist fanatics with the audacity to tell me I will be "forced to convert" - sooner or later. Not wise of them to say to a Southeast Asian war Vet and not wise after the Ft. Hood tragedy recently.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  John
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Mon, 11/9/09, WK2SHR@... <WK2SHR@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: WK2SHR@... <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 3:58 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Ralph:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Great post! Enjoyed hearing about the "old" stuff......i. e. the BB Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                                  New Haven cars. I have those too. Some of the them have the orange window
                                                                                                                                                                                                  band, but I did paint a few of them with a green window band. Also, I painted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the roofs black. These are hauled with DL-109s or the Frateschi Co-Co (EP-3 or
                                                                                                                                                                                                  EP-4 lookalike) electric. Sometimes, these cars end up in a PRR train and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are handled with a GG-1.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  As for the DCC comment -- no doubt DCC is great when it works. A friend
                                                                                                                                                                                                  of mine has an all-DCC layout, and has a lot of trouble getting stuff to work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  It works - sometimes, for awhile, but then, gremlins creep in. More often
                                                                                                                                                                                                  than not, he runs his layout on DC! I think DCC is just too complicated for
                                                                                                                                                                                                  many guys and they have a great deal of trouble working with it. Early on,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I tried DCC, but found I didn't really like it
 for the type of operation that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  was used to. Great for large layouts, big clubs and public displays, but not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  much good for small home layouts where DC is more likely to work better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (I think DCC is great for multi-operator layouts and layouts where there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are more than 2 locos on 2 different trains being operated; less than that,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  stick with DC). Too much has been made of DCC. In most cases, I am finding
                                                                                                                                                                                                  that DCC isn't really all that necessary for most home layouts, most of which
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are generally smaller than 12 x 12 feet (a small bedroom in the house).


                                                                                                                                                                                                  My thoughts,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12295
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Based on this, I would think that the only command 
control that could be "allowed" would be GE Astrac-or possibly Keller 
Onboard.  On occasions when Allan Fenton and I were disposing of estates, 
if there was anything Astrac, we could get top dollar for it--often put some 
real dogs in the lot with the Astrac units.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 12:34 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: DCC (was 
  Replying to Jim H)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, 
  the title of the group says it all...  "Vintage HO".  
  All of my HO is old equipment with some Kadee couplers and running straight 
  DC power.  That's all I have, want or need.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Staton in 
  VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ==================================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                  jim 
  heckard wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  .              
    After hearing a number of comments both about types of controls ( DCC, DC, 
    Decoders, Etc.) plus the loss of companies manufacturing HO ( Mantua, 
    Bowser, Athearn, MDC, Etc.) with everything being made poorly, but 
    costly, in China I'm starting to think some of my retro ideas are 
    not that bad. While I'm sure many have different thoughts and ways 
    then these ideas I'm starting to wonder if going back in time is such a 
    bad idea. In fact the way things are going you might not have a choice. That 
    is unless you have unlimited resources to do it or have someone do it for 
    you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                       In 1958 as a teenager 
    without much money I always dreamed of having an HO empire. It started with 
    a simple set by Revell and it has grown from there. While I am mostly a 
    collector of vintage items I had built a 10' x 11' layout mainly using 
    ideas, products and so forth from that early period of the 60's when I could 
    afford some of what I wanted. Making a move to a new home and having to 
    leave that first layout has always been a source of irritation. ( I had made 
    it to permanent and decided not to rip it apart but left intact for the new 
    owners 12 year old ).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                       Lately I have decided 
    to rebuild my retro type layout incorporating things from the time 
    period from 1958 through the 60's and early 70's. Brass track,old style 
    power packs/ transformers, older buildings plus vintage equipment as it 
    originally came. As someone mentioned his 4 foot rule applies for 
    me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Starting to 
    feel that a lot of people will be returning to older vintage equipment, 
    especially steam and diesel power, whether original or modified 
    depending on each individuals preference. Also as to how these 
    trains will be run. Straight DC power transformers with limited 
    bells and whistles (momentum or pulse power maybe), the old block system 
    wired track and no electronic wonders to create havoc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm sure many 
    won't agree and that's fine. It's my thoughts only but again as a person 
    mentioned his kiss theory which I like the best. KEEP IT 
    SIMPLE.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                        
    . 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- 
      Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
      RalphB 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
      Monday, November 09, 2009 2:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: 
      [vintageHO] Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just returned from the annual model show at the New York State 
      Fairgrounds in Syracuse. (Although it's advertised as the Great New York 
      State Train Fair, it has always included large displays by the Hoxie 
      Tucker Ring of the Circus Modelers of America, and now even includes a 
      display by the local chapter of the International Plastic Modelers 
      Society.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, my club set up its largest-ever HO modular layout 
      and the DCC gremlins reared their ugly heads. While we were able to get 
      the two mainlines operating reliably, the "branch" line was down 99 per 
      cent of the time. When it wasn't completely dead, it had polarity reversal 
      issues that no one could find or fix.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Fortunately, the Digitrax 
      system we use allows one train at a time to be run on straight DC, and 
      there are two of us in the club who prefer to run that way; we just can't 
      run on the mainlines at the same time. And while most of the locomotives 
      may be DCC-equipped, the cars behind them can be anything from the '50s to 
      the present. I tend to run a lot of MDC and Athearn Blue Box cars, and one 
      of the best-running and best-looking trains on the layout is a string of 
      New Haven-painted Athearn BB 72-foot passenger cars (even on 30-inch-plus 
      radius curves, the fancy new Rapido cars didn't track worth a tinker's 
      dam).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'll stick with DC. It's simple, it's reliable, and it would 
      be way too costly to put decoders into all my locomotives.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph 
      B

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, WK2SHR@... 
      wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Several DCC guys 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > have gone back to DC once 
      they have seen how DC works, and that it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > less troublesome to 
      run their trains (no dial up, press 1, program, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > restart,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
      swap decoders, reprogram, et al is involved; DC is a matter of "turn it 
      on" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > "go"...and removes the logic and digital 
      headaches from model railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > (Yeah, Yeah, you control locos 
      instead of track, but we have heard that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > argument too many times 
      before, and DCC still gives a lot of trouble to a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of 
      guys).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12296
						From: Chris B
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: vintage layout plans... (Replying to Jim H)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, nicely put.  You're certainly preaching to the choir here.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I can say I'm further along on my vintage layout project than the last time I wrote about it.  In recent weeks I've won several major multiple tru scale and tenshodo auctions on ebay, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  and I think I finally have enough to do the whole layout in vintage track.  I even scored 3 pairs of mint double turnouts, something I really needed to make my trackplan work. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  What I'm planning to do is neatly lay wood roadbed track on luan base shelves, and complete the whole layout track plan using  only vintage track; no traditional scenery, just old finished wood and brass and potmetal everywhere you look.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've got a multi-level
 around the room track plan ready, with about 2/3 of the benchwork already done and ready for track.  I'm modeling the W&OD in Northern VA, in the WWII and after eras, and I've got a major pile of brass and diecast engines and kits, some are ready to go, some are mint untouched kits.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a house full of antique furniture from when I had a restoration
shop called the rocker doctor, and a den with old leather club chairs
and old tools and brass hardware for decor.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm going to try and see how it looks to build a layout that matches that look.  If it doesn't work out, I can always add traditional vintage scenery, but I'm going to see how it looks to run unpainted brass and pot metal engines and cars on unpainted truscale and honey colored tenshodo roadbed and brass track.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've got some brass case MRC power paks, and eventually I'd like to get some Suydam metal buildings.  The only buildings in the photos of my prototype are super plain industrial sheds, so I don't need anything fancy.  I can use a few vintage figures, unpainted of course.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My plan for now is to try and accurately model the W&OD operations during that time, but do it with track and engines and cars that were mfd during that time.  I got the idea when I set up some of the tenshodo track and some unpainted brass and MEW 44 tonners on my desk in my den, and
 it just looked so damn cool I want to see how it looks with a whole layout done that way.   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've always been committed to using all metal rolling stock and engines, but now that I'm going this route, I don't want to lose the W&OD look either, so I might decal the proper W&OD heralds and engine numbers on the bare metal models, at least a few  just to see if it looks too odd.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, the main reason I'm writing this much is to say thanks for the constant reminder to do our railroads the way that makes us happy.    What I'm trying to do hasn't been done, and I don't know if it will look the way I imagine it, but I do know if it's vintage gear running on DC on brass rails, that I'm probably on the right track!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've got enough turnouts of all types to match the trackplans at Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 3:26:34 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  .              
After hearing a number of comments both about types of controls ( DCC, DC, 
Decoders, Etc.) plus the loss of companies manufacturing HO ( Mantua, 
Bowser, Athearn, MDC, Etc.) with everything being made poorly, but 
costly, in China I'm starting to think some of my retro ideas are not 
that bad. While I'm sure many have different thoughts and ways then 
these ideas I'm starting to wonder if going back in time is such a bad 
idea. In fact the way things are going you might not have a choice. That is 
unless you have unlimited resources to do it or have someone do it for 
you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       In 1958 as a teenager 
without much money I always dreamed of having an HO empire. It started with a 
simple set by Revell and it has grown from there. While I am mostly a collector 
of vintage items I had built a 10' x 11' layout mainly using ideas, products and 
so forth from that early period of the 60's when I could afford some of what I 
wanted. Making a move to a new home and having to leave that first layout has 
always been a source of irritation. ( I had made it to permanent and decided not 
to rip it apart but left intact for the new owners 12 year 
old ).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Lately I have decided to 
rebuild my retro type layout incorporating things from the time period from 
1958 through the 60's and early 70's. Brass track,old style power packs/ 
transformers, older buildings plus vintage equipment as it originally came. As 
someone mentioned his 4 foot rule applies for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Starting to 
feel that a lot of people will be returning to older vintage equipment, 
especially steam and diesel power, whether original or modified depending 
on each individuals preference. Also as to how these trains will 
be run. Straight DC power transformers with limited bells and whistles 
(momentum or pulse power maybe), the old block system wired track and no 
electronic wonders to create havoc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm 
sure many won't agree and that's fine. It's my thoughts only but again as a 
person mentioned his kiss theory which I like the best. KEEP IT 
SIMPLE.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                        . 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  RalphB 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 2:03 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DCC (was 
  Replying to Jim H)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just returned from the annual model show at the New York State 
  Fairgrounds in Syracuse. (Although it's advertised as the Great New York State 
  Train Fair, it has always included large displays by the Hoxie Tucker Ring of 
  the Circus Modelers of America, and now even includes a display by the local 
  chapter of the International Plastic Modelers Society.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, my club 
  set up its largest-ever HO modular layout and the DCC gremlins reared their 
  ugly heads. While we were able to get the two mainlines operating reliably, 
  the "branch" line was down 99 per cent of the time. When it wasn't completely 
  dead, it had polarity reversal issues that no one could find or 
  fix.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Fortunately, the Digitrax system we use allows one train at a time 
  to be run on straight DC, and there are two of us in the club who prefer to 
  run that way; we just can't run on the mainlines at the same time. And while 
  most of the locomotives may be DCC-equipped, the cars behind them can be 
  anything from the '50s to the present. I tend to run a lot of MDC and Athearn 
  Blue Box cars, and one of the best-running and best-looking trains on the 
  layout is a string of New Haven-painted Athearn BB 72-foot passenger cars 
  (even on 30-inch-plus radius curves, the fancy new Rapido cars didn't track 
  worth a tinker's dam).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'll stick with DC. It's simple, it's reliable, 
  and it would be way too costly to put decoders into all my 
  locomotives.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph B

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  WK2SHR@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Several DCC guys 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > have gone back to 
  DC once they have seen how DC works, and that it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > less troublesome 
  to run their trains (no dial up, press 1, program, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > restart,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  swap decoders, reprogram, et al is involved; DC is a matter of "turn it on" 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > "go"...and removes the logic and digital headaches from 
  model railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > (Yeah, Yeah, you control locos instead of track, 
  but we have heard that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > argument too many times before, and DCC still 
  gives a lot of trouble to a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of guys).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     





                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12297
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: vintage layout plans... (Replying to Jim H)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Your concept 
for the layout you envision sounds interesting. Go for it. There is room in HO 
for the entire range of ideas. Again do your own thing and enjoy doing it. It is 
the satisfaction that one gets that is the most important. After all it is yours 
and I emphasize YOURS. Will be interested to see 
as you progress.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 7:45 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] vintage layout 
  plans... (Replying to Jim H)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, 
  nicely put.  You're certainly preaching to the choir here.  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I can say I'm further along on my vintage layout project than the last 
  time I wrote about it.  In recent weeks I've won several major multiple 
  tru scale and tenshodo auctions on ebay, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  and I think I finally have 
  enough to do the whole layout in vintage track.  I even scored 3 pairs of 
  mint double turnouts, something I really needed to make my trackplan work. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  What I'm planning to do is neatly lay wood roadbed track on luan base 
  shelves, and complete the whole layout track plan using  only vintage 
  track; no traditional scenery, just old finished wood and brass and potmetal 
  everywhere you look.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've got a multi-level around the room track plan 
  ready, with about 2/3 of the benchwork already done and ready for track.  
  I'm modeling the W&OD in Northern VA, in the WWII and after eras, and I've 
  got a major pile of brass and diecast engines and kits, some are ready to go, 
  some are mint untouched kits.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a house full of antique furniture 
  from when I had a restoration shop called the rocker doctor, and a den with 
  old leather club chairs and old tools and brass hardware for decor.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm 
  going to try and see how it looks to build a layout that matches that 
  look.  If it doesn't work out, I can always add traditional vintage 
  scenery, but I'm going to see how it looks to run unpainted brass and pot 
  metal engines and cars on unpainted truscale and honey colored tenshodo 
  roadbed and brass track.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've got some brass case MRC power 
  paks, and eventually I'd like to get some Suydam metal buildings.  The 
  only buildings in the photos of my prototype are super plain industrial sheds, 
  so I don't need anything fancy.  I can use a few vintage figures, 
  unpainted of course.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My plan for now is to try and accurately model the 
  W&OD operations during that time, but do it with track and engines and 
  cars that were mfd during that time.  I got the idea when I set up some 
  of the tenshodo track and some unpainted brass and MEW 44 tonners on my desk 
  in my den, and it just looked so damn cool I want to see how it looks with a 
  whole layout done that way.   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've always been committed to 
  using all metal rolling stock and engines, but now that I'm going this route, 
  I don't want to lose the W&OD look either, so I might decal the proper 
  W&OD heralds and engine numbers on the bare metal models, at least a 
  few  just to see if it looks too odd.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, the main reason 
  I'm writing this much is to say thanks for the constant reminder to do our 
  railroads the way that makes us happy.    What I'm trying to do 
  hasn't been done, and I don't know if it will look the way I imagine it, but I 
  do know if it's vintage gear running on DC on brass rails, that I'm probably 
  on the right track!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've got enough turnouts of all 
  types to match the trackplans at Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: jim heckard 
  <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 3:26:34 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  .              
  After hearing a number of comments both about types of controls ( DCC, DC, 
  Decoders, Etc.) plus the loss of companies manufacturing HO ( Mantua, 
  Bowser, Athearn, MDC, Etc.) with everything being made poorly, but 
  costly, in China I'm starting to think some of my retro ideas are 
  not that bad. While I'm sure many have different thoughts and ways 
  then these ideas I'm starting to wonder if going back in time is such a 
  bad idea. In fact the way things are going you might not have a choice. That 
  is unless you have unlimited resources to do it or have someone do it for 
  you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                       In 1958 as a teenager 
  without much money I always dreamed of having an HO empire. It started with a 
  simple set by Revell and it has grown from there. While I am mostly a 
  collector of vintage items I had built a 10' x 11' layout mainly using ideas, 
  products and so forth from that early period of the 60's when I could afford 
  some of what I wanted. Making a move to a new home and having to leave that 
  first layout has always been a source of irritation. ( I had made it to 
  permanent and decided not to rip it apart but left intact for the new owners 
  12 year old ).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                       Lately I have decided to 
  rebuild my retro type layout incorporating things from the time period 
  from 1958 through the 60's and early 70's. Brass track,old style power packs/ 
  transformers, older buildings plus vintage equipment as it originally came. As 
  someone mentioned his 4 foot rule applies for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Starting to 
  feel that a lot of people will be returning to older vintage equipment, 
  especially steam and diesel power, whether original or modified depending 
  on each individuals preference. Also as to how these trains will 
  be run. Straight DC power transformers with limited bells and whistles 
  (momentum or pulse power maybe), the old block system wired track and no 
  electronic wonders to create havoc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm sure many won't 
  agree and that's fine. It's my thoughts only but again as a person mentioned 
  his kiss theory which I like the best. KEEP IT SIMPLE.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                        
  . 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- 
    Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
    RalphB 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
    Monday, November 09, 2009 2:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: 
    [vintageHO] Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just returned from the annual model show at the New York State 
    Fairgrounds in Syracuse. (Although it's advertised as the Great New York 
    State Train Fair, it has always included large displays by the Hoxie Tucker 
    Ring of the Circus Modelers of America, and now even includes a display by 
    the local chapter of the International Plastic Modelers 
    Society.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, my club set up its largest-ever HO modular layout 
    and the DCC gremlins reared their ugly heads. While we were able to get the 
    two mainlines operating reliably, the "branch" line was down 99 per cent of 
    the time. When it wasn't completely dead, it had polarity reversal issues 
    that no one could find or fix.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Fortunately, the Digitrax system we 
    use allows one train at a time to be run on straight DC, and there are two 
    of us in the club who prefer to run that way; we just can't run on the 
    mainlines at the same time. And while most of the locomotives may be 
    DCC-equipped, the cars behind them can be anything from the '50s to the 
    present. I tend to run a lot of MDC and Athearn Blue Box cars, and one of 
    the best-running and best-looking trains on the layout is a string of New 
    Haven-painted Athearn BB 72-foot passenger cars (even on 30-inch-plus radius 
    curves, the fancy new Rapido cars didn't track worth a tinker's 
    dam).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'll stick with DC. It's simple, it's reliable, and it would be 
    way too costly to put decoders into all my locomotives.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph 
    B

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
    WK2SHR@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Several DCC guys 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > have gone back 
    to DC once they have seen how DC works, and that it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > less 
    troublesome to run their trains (no dial up, press 1, program, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
    restart,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > swap decoders, reprogram, et al is involved; DC is a matter 
    of "turn it on" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > "go"...and removes the logic and 
    digital headaches from model railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > (Yeah, Yeah, you control 
    locos instead of track, but we have heard that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > argument too many 
    times before, and DCC still gives a lot of trouble to a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
    of guys).


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12298
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Speaking of what you can do with cardstock and wood, I have built 5 or so 
of the Ideal Aeoplane and Supply Co. Bucyrus 150 ton wreckers (still able to be 
found on eBay ocassionally) which seem to me to have been the state of the art 
in cardstock and wood back when they first came out. The main reason that I have 
an inordinate interest in that car is that my late bro built one in 1943 when he 
was about 16, and thus it carries lots of nostalgia for me. We still have it in 
the family, and I have always wondered exactly when Ideal first came out with 
it. I assume it was a prewar product as war demands made it more or less 
impossible for kits to be newly produced at the time. If anyone can nail down a 
begin date for that car I would appreciate it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/9/2009 2:58:27 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
WK2SHR@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Ralph:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Great post! Enjoyed hearing about the 
  "old" stuff......i.e. the BB Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                                  New Haven cars. I have those too. Some 
  of the them have the orange window
                                                                                                                                                                                                  band, but I did paint a few of them with 
  a green window band. Also, I painted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the roofs black. These are hauled with 
  DL-109s or the Frateschi Co-Co (EP-3 or
                                                                                                                                                                                                  EP-4 lookalike) electric. 
  Sometimes, these cars end up in a PRR train and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are handled with a 
  GG-1.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  As for the DCC comment -- no doubt DCC is great when it works. A 
  friend
                                                                                                                                                                                                  of mine has an all-DCC layout, and has a lot of trouble getting 
  stuff to work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  It works - sometimes, for awhile, but then, gremlins creep 
  in. More often
                                                                                                                                                                                                  than not, he runs his layout on DC! I think DCC is just too 
  complicated for
                                                                                                                                                                                                  many guys and they have a great deal of trouble working 
  with it. Early on,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I tried DCC, but found I didn't really like it for the 
  type of operation that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  was used to. Great for large layouts, big clubs 
  and public displays, but not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  much good for small home layouts where DC is 
  more likely to work better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (I think DCC is great for multi-operator 
  layouts and layouts where there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are more than 2 locos on 2 different trains 
  being operated; less than that,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  stick with DC). Too much has been made of 
  DCC. In most cases, I am finding
                                                                                                                                                                                                  that DCC isn't really all that necessary 
  for most home layouts, most of which
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are generally smaller than 12 x 12 
  feet (a small bedroom in the house).


                                                                                                                                                                                                  My 
  thoughts,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12299
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Please, please post some pictures!  I am currently working on one, well, more like when I get in the mood. Quite the project.  Did you use the cardboard supplied for the pulley's or did you substitute something else?  I would like to use something else, but have not come up with anything I like.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Just had a tooth pulled and a bone graft, so now I will take my pain pills now and be out for several hours.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Speaking of what you can do with cardstock and wood, I have built 5 or so  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> of the Ideal Aeoplane and Supply Co. Bucyrus 150 ton wreckers (still able to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> be  found on eBay ocassionally) which seem to me to have been the state of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the art  in cardstock and wood back when they first came out. The main 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> reason that I have  an inordinate interest in that car is that my late bro built 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> one in 1943 when he  was about 16, and thus it carries lots of nostalgia for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> me. We still have it in  the family, and I have always wondered exactly 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> when Ideal first came out with  it. I assume it was a prewar product as war 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> demands made it more or less  impossible for kits to be newly produced at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> time. If anyone can nail down a  begin date for that car I would appreciate 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> In a message dated 11/9/2009 2:58:27 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> WK2SHR@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Ralph:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Great post! Enjoyed hearing about the  "old" stuff......i.e. the BB Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> New Haven cars. I have those too. Some  of the them have the orange window
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> band, but I did paint a few of them with  a green window band. Also, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> painted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the roofs black. These are hauled with  DL-109s or the Frateschi Co-Co 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> (EP-3 or
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> EP-4 lookalike) electric.  Sometimes, these cars end up in a PRR train and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> are handled with a  GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> As for the DCC comment -- no doubt DCC is great when it works. A  friend
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> of mine has an all-DCC layout, and has a lot of trouble getting  stuff to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> It works - sometimes, for awhile, but then, gremlins creep  in. More often
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> than not, he runs his layout on DC! I think DCC is just too  complicated for
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> many guys and they have a great deal of trouble working  with it. Early on,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I tried DCC, but found I didn't really like it for the  type of operation 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> was used to. Great for large layouts, big clubs  and public displays, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> much good for small home layouts where DC is  more likely to work better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> (I think DCC is great for multi-operator  layouts and layouts where there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> are more than 2 locos on 2 different trains  being operated; less than that,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> stick with DC). Too much has been made of  DCC. In most cases, I am finding
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> that DCC isn't really all that necessary  for most home layouts, most of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> which
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> are generally smaller than 12 x 12  feet (a small bedroom in the house).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> My  thoughts,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12300
						From: Chris B
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: vintage layout plans... (Replying to Jim H)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks Jim, I'm still waiting for the rest of the track to arrive, but here's some shots of what I have and what I won...I wasn't familiar with the Tenshodo track until recently, and I'm still hoping to find and buy more of it.  HOseeker of course had the track info in one of the tenshodo catalogs onsite.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've always had tru scale track and turnouts, and I like them very much, but it was the unpainted tenshodo track, that really gave me the idea for this whole layout theme.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm going to try and use all tenshodo track on the two main yards in the layout, and fill out the rest with tru scale.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've also gotten a good bit of milled plain truscale roadbed, and I plan to stain that to match the tenshodo, and finish it off with vintage brass rail salvaged from some used atlas
 flex track with fiber tie strip in poor shape I've had for years.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm getting over tendinitis, but I've started work on the benchwork again, so I hope to have at least one level running by christmas, I don't plan to rush the rest, but now that I've had this crazy idea, I want to see how it looks when they're running!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks again for the encouragement, even though I won't be running any vintage steam; I'm not that far off in left field by BB standards...

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I do have several Athearn drives running cary s-2 bodies, and I always use them first to see if an incline can be climbed!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I get more information and motivation from this group than any other onlinie model rr group. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 8:10:49 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] vintage layout plans... (Replying to Jim H)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Your concept 
for the layout you envision sounds interesting. Go for it. There is room in HO 
for the entire range of ideas. Again do your own thing and enjoy doing it. It is 
the satisfaction that one gets that is the most important. After all it is yours 
and I emphasize YOURS. Will be interested to see 
as you progress.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 7:45 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] vintage layout 
  plans... (Replying to Jim H)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, 
  nicely put.  You're certainly preaching to the choir here.  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I can say I'm further along on my vintage layout project than the last 
  time I wrote about it.  In recent weeks I've won several major multiple 
  tru scale and tenshodo auctions on ebay, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  and I think I finally have 
  enough to do the whole layout in vintage track.  I even scored 3 pairs of 
  mint double turnouts, something I really needed to make my trackplan work. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  What I'm planning to do is neatly lay wood roadbed track on luan base 
  shelves, and complete the whole layout track plan using  only vintage 
  track; no traditional scenery, just old finished wood and brass and potmetal 
  everywhere you look.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've got a multi-level around the room track plan 
  ready, with about 2/3 of the benchwork already done and ready for track.  
  I'm modeling the W&OD in Northern VA, in the WWII and after eras, and I've 
  got a major pile of brass and diecast engines and kits, some are ready to go, 
  some are mint untouched kits.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a house full of antique furniture 
  from when I had a restoration shop called the rocker doctor, and a den with 
  old leather club chairs and old tools and brass hardware for decor.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm 
  going to try and see how it looks to build a layout that matches that 
  look.  If it doesn't work out, I can always add traditional vintage 
  scenery, but I'm going to see how it looks to run unpainted brass and pot 
  metal engines and cars on unpainted truscale and honey colored tenshodo 
  roadbed and brass track.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've got some brass case MRC power 
  paks, and eventually I'd like to get some Suydam metal buildings.  The 
  only buildings in the photos of my prototype are super plain industrial sheds, 
  so I don't need anything fancy.  I can use a few vintage figures, 
  unpainted of course.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My plan for now is to try and accurately model the 
  W&OD operations during that time, but do it with track and engines and 
  cars that were mfd during that time.  I got the idea when I set up some 
  of the tenshodo track and some unpainted brass and MEW 44 tonners on my desk 
  in my den, and it just looked so damn cool I want to see how it looks with a 
  whole layout done that way.   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've always been committed to 
  using all metal rolling stock and engines, but now that I'm going this route, 
  I don't want to lose the W&OD look either, so I might decal the proper 
  W&OD heralds and engine numbers on the bare metal models, at least a 
  few  just to see if it looks too odd.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, the main reason 
  I'm writing this much is to say thanks for the constant reminder to do our 
  railroads the way that makes us happy.    What I'm trying to do 
  hasn't been done, and I don't know if it will look the way I imagine it, but I 
  do know if it's vintage gear running on DC on brass rails, that I'm probably 
  on the right track!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've got enough turnouts of all 
  types to match the trackplans at Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: jim heckard 
  <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 3:26:34 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
  Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  .              
  After hearing a number of comments both about types of controls ( DCC, DC, 
  Decoders, Etc.) plus the loss of companies manufacturing HO ( Mantua, 
  Bowser, Athearn, MDC, Etc.) with everything being made poorly, but 
  costly, in China I'm starting to think some of my retro ideas are 
  not that bad. While I'm sure many have different thoughts and ways 
  then these ideas I'm starting to wonder if going back in time is such a 
  bad idea. In fact the way things are going you might not have a choice. That 
  is unless you have unlimited resources to do it or have someone do it for 
  you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                       In 1958 as a teenager 
  without much money I always dreamed of having an HO empire. It started with a 
  simple set by Revell and it has grown from there. While I am mostly a 
  collector of vintage items I had built a 10' x 11' layout mainly using ideas, 
  products and so forth from that early period of the 60's when I could afford 
  some of what I wanted. Making a move to a new home and having to leave that 
  first layout has always been a source of irritation. ( I had made it to 
  permanent and decided not to rip it apart but left intact for the new owners 
  12 year old ).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                       Lately I have decided to 
  rebuild my retro type layout incorporating things from the time period 
  from 1958 through the 60's and early 70's. Brass track,old style power packs/ 
  transformers, older buildings plus vintage equipment as it originally came. As 
  someone mentioned his 4 foot rule applies for me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Starting to 
  feel that a lot of people will be returning to older vintage equipment, 
  especially steam and diesel power, whether original or modified depending 
  on each individuals preference. Also as to how these trains will 
  be run. Straight DC power transformers with limited bells and whistles 
  (momentum or pulse power maybe), the old block system wired track and no 
  electronic wonders to create havoc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm sure many won't 
  agree and that's fine. It's my thoughts only but again as a person mentioned 
  his kiss theory which I like the best. KEEP IT SIMPLE.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                        
  . 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- 
    Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
    RalphB 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
    Monday, November 09, 2009 2:03 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: 
    [vintageHO] Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just returned from the annual model show at the New York State 
    Fairgrounds in Syracuse. (Although it's advertised as the Great New York 
    State Train Fair, it has always included large displays by the Hoxie Tucker 
    Ring of the Circus Modelers of America, and now even includes a display by 
    the local chapter of the International Plastic Modelers 
    Society.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway, my club set up its largest-ever HO modular layout 
    and the DCC gremlins reared their ugly heads. While we were able to get the 
    two mainlines operating reliably, the "branch" line was down 99 per cent of 
    the time. When it wasn't completely dead, it had polarity reversal issues 
    that no one could find or fix.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Fortunately, the Digitrax system we 
    use allows one train at a time to be run on straight DC, and there are two 
    of us in the club who prefer to run that way; we just can't run on the 
    mainlines at the same time. And while most of the locomotives may be 
    DCC-equipped, the cars behind them can be anything from the '50s to the 
    present. I tend to run a lot of MDC and Athearn Blue Box cars, and one of 
    the best-running and best-looking trains on the layout is a string of New 
    Haven-painted Athearn BB 72-foot passenger cars (even on 30-inch-plus radius 
    curves, the fancy new Rapido cars didn't track worth a tinker's 
    dam).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'll stick with DC. It's simple, it's reliable, and it would be 
    way too costly to put decoders into all my locomotives.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ralph 
    B

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
    WK2SHR@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Several DCC guys 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > have gone back 
    to DC once they have seen how DC works, and that it is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > less 
    troublesome to run their trains (no dial up, press 1, program, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
    restart,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > swap decoders, reprogram, et al is involved; DC is a matter 
    of "turn it on" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > "go"...and removes the logic and 
    digital headaches from model railroading.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > (Yeah, Yeah, you control 
    locos instead of track, but we have heard that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > argument too many 
    times before, and DCC still gives a lot of trouble to a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > lot
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
    of guys).


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     





                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12301
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I will post some pics tomorrow. I did use the 
cardstock pulleys as I wanted to keep everything as original as possible. I 
obtained 1 or 2 unfinished kits where someone tried to substitute 
brass pulleys but, as you will find out eventually, the various functions that 
this vintage wrecker were designed to perform will never work well or 
at all in any case. For instance, there is no way to take up the slack of the 
cables when the boom raises, and it's impossible to keep tension on the cables 
in various positions without gluing them in place permanently--which I finally 
did.. But some designer had high expectations (or was dreaming) when this kit 
was manufactured (in 1939?). I just think the whole thing is so cool in any case 
because of the cardstock-wood construction. The support beams can be extended, 
and the cab does swivel nicely, so it looks great as a static display or maybe 
in a work train on large curves. It's so obviously a vintage car that it has an 
appeal of its own in that respect.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have done other Ideal freight cars and found them 
to be of inferior quality compared to other manufacturers, and so this wrecker 
is all that much more remarkable in the effort that was put into its design. I'm 
sure you've found the large and detailed instructions impressive too!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      In addition, it was interesting to me to note 
how Ideal substituted various materials in this kit as the years progressed 
in its manufacture. And believe it or not, eye pins are still available but 
are hard to find of the correct size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/9/2009 6:18:38 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
nvrr49@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Please, 
  please post some pictures!  I am currently working on one, well, more 
  like when I get in the mood. Quite the project.  Did you use the 
  cardboard supplied for the pulley's or did you substitute something 
  else?  I would like to use something else, but have not come up with 
  anything I like.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just had a tooth pulled and a bone graft, so now I 
  will take my pain pills now and be out for several hours.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kent 
  Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... 
  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Speaking of what you can do with cardstock and wood, I 
  have built 5 or so  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of the Ideal Aeoplane and Supply Co. Bucyrus 
  150 ton wreckers (still able to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > be  found on eBay ocassionally) 
  which seem to me to have been the state of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the art  in cardstock 
  and wood back when they first came out. The main 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > reason that I 
  have  an inordinate interest in that car is that my late bro built 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > one in 1943 when he  was about 16, and thus it carries lots of 
  nostalgia for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > me. We still have it in  the family, and I have 
  always wondered exactly 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > when Ideal first came out with  it. I 
  assume it was a prewar product as war 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > demands made it more or 
  less  impossible for kits to be newly produced at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > time. If 
  anyone can nail down a  begin date for that car I would appreciate 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > In a message dated 11/9/2009 2:58:27 P.M. Pacific Standard 
  Time,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > WK2SHR@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi 
  Ralph:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Great post! Enjoyed hearing about the  "old" 
  stuff......i.e. the BB Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > New Haven cars. I have those too. 
  Some  of the them have the orange window
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > band, but I did paint a 
  few of them with  a green window band. Also, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > painted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  the roofs black. These are hauled with  DL-109s or the Frateschi Co-Co 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > (EP-3 or
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > EP-4 lookalike) electric.  Sometimes, these 
  cars end up in a PRR train and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > are handled with a  GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > As for the DCC comment -- no doubt DCC is great when it works. 
  A  friend
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of mine has an all-DCC layout, and has a lot of trouble 
  getting  stuff to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > It works - sometimes, for 
  awhile, but then, gremlins creep  in. More often
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > than not, he 
  runs his layout on DC! I think DCC is just too  complicated for
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  many guys and they have a great deal of trouble working  with it. Early 
  on,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I tried DCC, but found I didn't really like it for the  type 
  of operation 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > was used to. Great for large layouts, big 
  clubs  and public displays, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > much good for small 
  home layouts where DC is  more likely to work better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > (I think 
  DCC is great for multi-operator  layouts and layouts where there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  are more than 2 locos on 2 different trains  being operated; less than 
  that,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > stick with DC). Too much has been made of  DCC. In most 
  cases, I am finding
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that DCC isn't really all that necessary  for 
  most home layouts, most of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > are generally smaller than 
  12 x 12  feet (a small bedroom in the house).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  My  thoughts,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




                                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12302
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Central Valley
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Now that the discussion of the history of Red Ball and Binkley and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
others has mostly run its course, I'd be interested in something similar 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
on Central Valley. I've had a particular fondness for their kits for a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
very long time, and their trucks are wonderful. I'm curious too about 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the changes in the boxes and when they came into use, as I have several 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
different versions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Is anybody savvy enough to provide a timeline for CV?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"The brain is a wonderful organ. It starts working when you get up in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the morning, and doesn't stop until you get to the office."
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    -Robert Frost
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12303
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Central Valley
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Central Valley intrigues me as well.  I first got interested in model 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
railroading in 1955.  My first piece of rolling stock was a Central 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Valley Old Time box car.  Still have it;  I rebuilt it once and it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
needs it again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
About 1956/57, the family was in Central California visiting 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
relatives and for some reason one of them listened to me whine and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
took my by Central Valley's operation.  Small place and I don't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
remember much.  Somehow the address 13000 Saticoy rings a bell.  Odd 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
if that was the right address that it jumps into my mind now after 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
all these years.  I must have been impressed with something.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've always liked their trucks too, and have picked up a couple 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
recently on ebay, but they go for such high prices I usually fall 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
back from bidding very far.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Good kits too.  I'd like to know more about the company.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
At 09:30 PM 11/9/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >     Now that the discussion of the history of Red Ball and Binkley and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>others has mostly run its course, I'd be interested in something similar
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>on Central Valley. I've had a particular fondness for their kits for a
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>very long time, and their trucks are wonderful. I'm curious too about
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>the changes in the boxes and when they came into use, as I have several
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>different versions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Is anybody savvy enough to provide a timeline for CV?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>--
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                    Rick Jones 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12304
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  John:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I think all of us vintageHO DC guys have had DCC thrown at us at one time
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
or another. It's not really vintageHO, so I don't use it! LOL. Always a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
excuse and it works too....
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
DCC is here to stay, but I doubt that it will ever overtake DC entirely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
DC is still too popular, and there are still too many folks who won't, or 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
cannot afford to retrofit large fleets of locos to work on DCC. I see this
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
here....lots and lots of DCC guys still have large stables of un-DCC DC engines
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
that will never get the DCC treatment. This is particularly true for a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the guys who still have, own and use older Mantua, Model Power, Athearn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
MDC/Rondhouse, and even older Atlas and Bowser locos....most are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
worth the cost of DCC retrofits, but well worth continued use as good running
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
DC engines. The flip side is that a lot of potential DCC guys don't know how
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to install decoders in older engines, and won't take a chance on disassembling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
perfectly good running older-vintage locos (for fear of not being able to put
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
them back together again!).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Of course, if you really want to get vintage, try doing O (or HO) in outside
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
3rd rail using AC. I think outside 3rd rail was a common modeling venue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
up until the mid-50s in O scale. I am trying to do outside 3rd rail in HO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
but mine will be a non-op system, strictly for looks for some suburban trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(working on an elevated railway (EL) and possibly a couple of subway lines).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(I also tried doing overhead catenary, but couldn't get it to work all that well;
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I now have make-believe catenary! "Eye candy".....as it were, becuase I love
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
electric locos ("juice trains"). 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The issues with DC vs DCC is really one of "technology", and not much else.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
As I said in previous posts, Rule # 1 is to Keep It Simple (KISS), and that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
where DC comes in. I have tried DCC, and I find it  complicated, (hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
work with), not necessarily user friendly (to me), and often unreliable
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and contankerous (it doesn't work as advertised). Perhaps my OLD mind is toooo
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
small to absorb all of the memory and digital stuff, or maybe I am just
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
happy with my remote, wireless walkaround DC system.....maybe I am just
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
prejudiced in favor of the old ways (DC). More to the point, I'm just an old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
fart who doesn't want to change! LOL      (DC works; "why" change it?) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
My biggest resentment toward DCC is seeing the problems so many of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
local buds who have DCC are having with it. It's a near-constant love-hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
relationship that they guys have to go thru. Seems they spend so much of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
their train time fiddling with the DCC controllers and trying to figure out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
find and then fix a gremlin, to a point that when it's all said and done, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
are exhausted, frustrated, tired and fed up with the hobby for the night.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Luckily, 1 guy has Digitrax, so he can switch to DC and at least get something
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
going when I visit. Another guys seems to get a constant "hum" from all of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
his DCC locos. They run for awhile, but then, often, in the middle of their
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
run....they stop dead. He never ever gets them restarted! This occurs after
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
about 3-5 minutes of run time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
My second issue with some of this new tech stuff is with the sound systems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I find, from experience, that onboard sound in HO is more of an annoyance
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
than an asset. Sound in HO is tinny,  artificial and pretty unrealistic. I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
make better sound with make-believe mouth noises! Quite different from HO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the onboard sound, especially from MTH in O scale is dramatically different 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and significantly improved and well worth the costs. One of my buds has an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
O scale (mostly MTH equipment) empire, and it is impressive, complete with
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
sounds and even vibrations (as a result of the onboard sound). Here in SC,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
older houses have large (huge) basements (train rooms), so O scale is pretty 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
popular, as is LGB and some of the larger scales.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Take a chill pill and don't get your grundies in a bundle over DCC!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Have a great one....remember, "Model Railroading is FUN"....!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12305
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Glenn Joesten:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave Freed from Fort Ord, CA here......
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Long time no see. Last time I saw you (in Marina) you were in a mobile
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
home. Did you ever get a house or a large layout going??? Where are
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
you these days?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I left the Army in 1988 and now live in Greenville, SC. Have a large layout
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and spend a lot of time with it....love it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Small world......
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12306
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/9/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: More Bad News
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for the note back.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I did email Don Meyer at Trollies and Dollies v/v the Intermountain FEC FP-7s.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
He's sold out. Said he sold out as soon as he received them, esp the FEC
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
units. Also, a check with Intermountain today and reply says they have NO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
plans to re-run them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for the tip!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12307
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The for runner of DCC, command control, such as the CTC16 system, and other analog systems, got to where they were very reliable, but you know these computer geeks couldn't leave well enough alone, they just had to fix it, so DCC was born, and its been a thorn in everyones side since.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It drives the price of your average locomotive up by about $100 if it comes with DCC decoder installed, one of the things I noticed at Dana's during the train sales, the DCC stuff was built specifically for Murphy's law to take full advantage of, while my DC trains run around the outside loop, (which is all the DC operation thats left on the West Hernando Central), the guys are in the pit, (inside the layout) scratching their heads, even though Les is one of the best DCC guru's around, I have yet to see a single train of his turn a wheel, he's too busy working on everyone else's trains trying to get them to run, go figure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm sticking with DC for a long time to come, I get plenty of DCC use in my Trainz RR Simulator on my computer, its at least dependable as far as DCC goes, and with the speaker system I have connected to my comp, I get much better sound than those guys who spend the big bucks on all the BLI, P2k and Genesis, with DCC and sound.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  You can only get so much sound out of a 2 inch speaker, and only so much bass, without the base, its going to sound tinny for sure............:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 1:23:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: DCC

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  John:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think all of us vintageHO DC guys have had DCC thrown at us at one time
                                                                                                                                                                                                  or another. It's not really vintageHO, so I don't use it! LOL. Always a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                  excuse and it works too....

                                                                                                                                                                                                  DCC is here to stay, but I doubt that it will ever overtake DC entirely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  DC is still too popular, and there are still too many folks who won't, or 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  cannot afford to retrofit large fleets of locos to work on DCC. I see this
                                                                                                                                                                                                  here....lots and lots of DCC guys still have large stables of un-DCC DC engines
                                                                                                                                                                                                  that will never get the DCC treatment. This is particularly true for a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the guys who still have, own and use older Mantua, Model Power, Athearn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  MDC/Rondhouse, and even older Atlas and Bowser locos....most are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  worth the cost of DCC retrofits, but well worth continued use as good running
                                                                                                                                                                                                  DC engines. The flip side is that a lot of potential DCC
 guys don't know how
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to install decoders in older engines, and won't take a chance on disassembling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  perfectly good running older-vintage locos (for fear of not being able to put
                                                                                                                                                                                                  them back together again!).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Of course, if you really want to get vintage, try doing O (or HO) in outside
                                                                                                                                                                                                  3rd rail using AC. I think outside 3rd rail was a common modeling venue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  up until the mid-50s in O scale. I am trying to do outside 3rd rail in HO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  but mine will be a non-op system, strictly for looks for some suburban trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (working on an elevated railway (EL) and possibly a couple of subway lines).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (I also tried doing overhead catenary, but couldn't get it to work all that well;
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I now have make-believe catenary! "Eye candy".....as it were, becuase I love
                                                                                                                                                                                                  electric locos ("juice trains"). 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The issues with DC vs DCC is really one of "technology" , and not much else.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  As I said in previous posts, Rule # 1 is to Keep It Simple
 (KISS), and that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  where DC comes in. I have tried DCC, and I find it  complicated, (hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  work with), not necessarily user friendly (to me), and often unreliable
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and contankerous (it doesn't work as advertised). Perhaps my OLD mind is toooo
                                                                                                                                                                                                  small to absorb all of the memory and digital stuff, or maybe I am just
                                                                                                                                                                                                  happy with my remote, wireless walkaround DC system.....maybe I am just
                                                                                                                                                                                                  prejudiced in favor of the old ways (DC). More to the point, I'm just an old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  fart who doesn't want to change! LOL      (DC works; "why" change it?) 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My biggest resentment toward DCC is seeing the problems so many of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                  local buds who have DCC are having with it. It's a near-constant love-hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                  relationship that they guys have to go thru. Seems they spend so much of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  their train time fiddling with the DCC controllers and trying to figure out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  find and then fix a gremlin, to a point that when it's all said
 and done, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are exhausted, frustrated, tired and fed up with the hobby for the night.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Luckily, 1 guy has Digitrax, so he can switch to DC and at least get something
                                                                                                                                                                                                  going when I visit. Another guys seems to get a constant "hum" from all of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  his DCC locos. They run for awhile, but then, often, in the middle of their
                                                                                                                                                                                                  run....they stop dead. He never ever gets them restarted! This occurs after
                                                                                                                                                                                                  about 3-5 minutes of run time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My second issue with some of this new tech stuff is with the sound systems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I find, from experience, that onboard sound in HO is more of an annoyance
                                                                                                                                                                                                  than an asset. Sound in HO is tinny,  artificial and pretty unrealistic. I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                  make better sound with make-believe mouth noises! Quite different from HO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the onboard sound, especially from MTH in O scale is dramatically different 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and significantly improved and well worth the costs. One of my buds has an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  O scale (mostly MTH equipment)
 empire, and it is impressive, complete with
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sounds and even vibrations (as a result of the onboard sound). Here in SC,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  older houses have large (huge) basements (train rooms), so O scale is pretty 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  popular, as is LGB and some of the larger scales.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Take a chill pill and don't get your grundies in a bundle over DCC!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have a great one....remember, "Model Railroading is FUN"....!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12308
						From: John Barlow
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary and Folks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  To add to my rantings of previous, I tell the story out of Caboose Hobbies in Denver when a pro-DCC clerk tried to tell me the advantages of DCC over DC. In the sound area (and I have a few so equipped), he said DCC has more sound features than the DC versions, noting in one diesel's case that the stopping of the locomotive had the added feature of the engineer
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  walking several steps along a platform and a door opening and closing. He smiled: "Guess what he's doing." I was unimpressed and replied: "When I can hear the toilet flush, you got me interested." He said that wasn't in the programming. That's a true story.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  John

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Tue, 11/10/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: DCC
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 4:15 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The for runner of DCC, command control, such as the CTC16 system, and other analog systems, got to where they were very reliable, but you know these computer geeks couldn't leave well enough alone, they just had to fix it, so DCC was born, and its been a thorn in everyones side since.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It drives the price of your average locomotive up by about $100 if it comes with DCC decoder installed, one of the things I noticed at Dana's during the train sales, the DCC stuff was built specifically for Murphy's law to take full advantage of, while my DC trains run around the outside loop, (which is all the DC operation thats left on the West Hernando Central), the guys are in the pit, (inside the layout) scratching their heads, even though Les is one of the best DCC guru's around, I have yet to see a single train of his turn a wheel, he's too busy working on everyone else's trains trying to get them to run, go figure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm sticking with DC for a long time to come, I get plenty of DCC use in my Trainz RR Simulator on my computer, its at least dependable as far as DCC goes, and with the speaker system I have connected to my comp, I get much better sound than those guys who spend the big bucks on all the BLI, P2k and Genesis, with DCC and sound.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  You can only get so much sound out of a 2 inch speaker, and only so much bass, without the base, its going to sound tinny for sure........ ....:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "WK2SHR@aol. com" <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 1:23:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: DCC

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  John:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think all of us vintageHO DC guys have had DCC thrown at us at one time
                                                                                                                                                                                                  or another. It's not really vintageHO, so I don't use it! LOL. Always a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                  excuse and it works too....

                                                                                                                                                                                                  DCC is here to stay, but I doubt that it will ever overtake DC entirely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  DC is still too popular, and there are still too many folks who won't, or 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  cannot afford to retrofit large fleets of locos to work on DCC. I see this
                                                                                                                                                                                                  here....lots and lots of DCC guys still have large stables of un-DCC DC engines
                                                                                                                                                                                                  that will never get the DCC treatment. This is particularly true for a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the guys who still have, own and use older Mantua, Model Power, Athearn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  MDC/Rondhouse, and even older Atlas and Bowser locos....most are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  worth the cost of DCC retrofits, but well worth continued use as good running
                                                                                                                                                                                                  DC engines. The flip side is that a lot of potential
 DCC guys don't know how
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to install decoders in older engines, and won't take a chance on disassembling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  perfectly good running older-vintage locos (for fear of not being able to put
                                                                                                                                                                                                  them back together again!).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Of course, if you really want to get vintage, try doing O (or HO) in outside
                                                                                                                                                                                                  3rd rail using AC. I think outside 3rd rail was a common modeling venue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  up until the mid-50s in O scale. I am trying to do outside 3rd rail in HO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  but mine will be a non-op system, strictly for looks for some suburban trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (working on an elevated railway (EL) and possibly a couple of subway lines).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (I also tried doing overhead catenary, but couldn't get it to work all that well;
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I now have make-believe catenary! "Eye candy".....as it were, becuase I love
                                                                                                                                                                                                  electric locos ("juice trains"). 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The issues with DC vs DCC is really one of "technology" , and not much else.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  As I said in previous posts, Rule # 1 is to Keep It Simple
 (KISS), and that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  where DC comes in. I have tried DCC, and I find it  complicated, (hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  work with), not necessarily user friendly (to me), and often unreliable
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and contankerous (it doesn't work as advertised). Perhaps my OLD mind is toooo
                                                                                                                                                                                                  small to absorb all of the memory and digital stuff, or maybe I am just
                                                                                                                                                                                                  happy with my remote, wireless walkaround DC system.....maybe I am just
                                                                                                                                                                                                  prejudiced in favor of the old ways (DC). More to the point, I'm just an old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  fart who doesn't want to change! LOL      (DC works; "why" change it?) 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My biggest resentment toward DCC is seeing the problems so many of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                  local buds who have DCC are having with it. It's a near-constant love-hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                  relationship that they guys have to go thru. Seems they spend so much of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  their train time fiddling with the DCC controllers and trying to figure out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  find and then fix a gremlin, to a point that when it's all said
 and done, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are exhausted, frustrated, tired and fed up with the hobby for the night.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Luckily, 1 guy has Digitrax, so he can switch to DC and at least get something
                                                                                                                                                                                                  going when I visit. Another guys seems to get a constant "hum" from all of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  his DCC locos. They run for awhile, but then, often, in the middle of their
                                                                                                                                                                                                  run....they stop dead. He never ever gets them restarted! This occurs after
                                                                                                                                                                                                  about 3-5 minutes of run time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My second issue with some of this new tech stuff is with the sound systems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I find, from experience, that onboard sound in HO is more of an annoyance
                                                                                                                                                                                                  than an asset. Sound in HO is tinny,  artificial and pretty unrealistic. I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                  make better sound with make-believe mouth noises! Quite different from HO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the onboard sound, especially from MTH in O scale is dramatically different 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and significantly improved and well worth the costs. One of my buds has an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  O scale (mostly MTH equipment)
 empire, and it is impressive, complete with
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sounds and even vibrations (as a result of the onboard sound). Here in SC,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  older houses have large (huge) basements (train rooms), so O scale is pretty 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  popular, as is LGB and some of the larger scales.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Take a chill pill and don't get your grundies in a bundle over DCC!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have a great one....remember, "Model Railroading is FUN"....!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12309
						From: John Barlow
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: In All Fairness... (Was: DCC)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Folks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The DCC is not the "price jacker" per se...the sound add-on is the culprit for locos (and a few BLI livestock cars.) I think we all remember the now archaic and costly Pacific Fast Mail sound system of the late-1970's/early-1980's and the expensive support equipment pieces that required, sold separately, that could run over $1,000 before you did anything to any locomotive...and that was nearly 30 years ago. I had one Westside B&O T-3a converted to that system, but that was as far as I got into that. I never could afford the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  works...and that was circa 1979 (?) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The one regime Spectrum recently went off the deep end about with DCC was/is their Peter Witt series of trolley cars. The box labeling says DCC...but the plugs in the box exist to run it DC. They do not advertise that fact. Not one of their smarter moves, in my book. There is no sound feature attached. I purchased an unpainted example for a mythical Central Pennsylvania interurban line adjunct to my PRR-Reading main design.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  This is all outside the vintage realm, I admit. I scour websites for classics and used to attend swaps and shows until I could no longer drive (I'm a partially Disabled Vet). My Varney GT-101 Ohio Seamless Tube gond is a recent acquisition I love. I still chuckle over Varney's G-101 with all the PRR lettering and symbol that countless successor firms copied, putting the class G-101 on the car sides. There was no PRR class G-101 gond...that was Varney's catalog number way back when. Some were painted or molded in freight car red...others black...all were wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway...DCC is an idea that has more blind followers and devotees then it deserves, as I see it. Go back 32 years to July 1977's edition of Model Railroader and you can see where this mania was in its infancy...but not DCC then. To me DCC puts the modeler/operator further away from actually controlling his miniature charges...and if the day comes when a mere layout owner simply turns on the power to let a computer run his/her layout for them...the hobby will truly be dead...and I'm sure I will be by then as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  John
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  *******************************************************************************************************
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Tue, 11/10/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: DCC
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 4:15 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The for runner of DCC, command control, such as the CTC16 system, and other analog systems, got to where they were very reliable, but you know these computer geeks couldn't leave well enough alone, they just had to fix it, so DCC was born, and its been a thorn in everyones side since.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It drives the price of your average locomotive up by about $100 if it comes with DCC decoder installed, one of the things I noticed at Dana's during the train sales, the DCC stuff was built specifically for Murphy's law to take full advantage of, while my DC trains run around the outside loop, (which is all the DC operation thats left on the West Hernando Central), the guys are in the pit, (inside the layout) scratching their heads, even though Les is one of the best DCC guru's around, I have yet to see a single train of his turn a wheel, he's too busy working on everyone else's trains trying to get them to run, go figure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm sticking with DC for a long time to come, I get plenty of DCC use in my Trainz RR Simulator on my computer, its at least dependable as far as DCC goes, and with the speaker system I have connected to my comp, I get much better sound than those guys who spend the big bucks on all the BLI, P2k and Genesis, with DCC and sound.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  You can only get so much sound out of a 2 inch speaker, and only so much bass, without the base, its going to sound tinny for sure........ ....:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "WK2SHR@aol. com" <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 1:23:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: DCC

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  John:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think all of us vintageHO DC guys have had DCC thrown at us at one time
                                                                                                                                                                                                  or another. It's not really vintageHO, so I don't use it! LOL. Always a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                  excuse and it works too....

                                                                                                                                                                                                  DCC is here to stay, but I doubt that it will ever overtake DC entirely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  DC is still too popular, and there are still too many folks who won't, or 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  cannot afford to retrofit large fleets of locos to work on DCC. I see this
                                                                                                                                                                                                  here....lots and lots of DCC guys still have large stables of un-DCC DC engines
                                                                                                                                                                                                  that will never get the DCC treatment. This is particularly true for a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the guys who still have, own and use older Mantua, Model Power, Athearn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  MDC/Rondhouse, and even older Atlas and Bowser locos....most are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  worth the cost of DCC retrofits, but well worth continued use as good running
                                                                                                                                                                                                  DC engines. The flip side is that a lot of potential
 DCC guys don't know how
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to install decoders in older engines, and won't take a chance on disassembling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  perfectly good running older-vintage locos (for fear of not being able to put
                                                                                                                                                                                                  them back together again!).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Of course, if you really want to get vintage, try doing O (or HO) in outside
                                                                                                                                                                                                  3rd rail using AC. I think outside 3rd rail was a common modeling venue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  up until the mid-50s in O scale. I am trying to do outside 3rd rail in HO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  but mine will be a non-op system, strictly for looks for some suburban trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (working on an elevated railway (EL) and possibly a couple of subway lines).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (I also tried doing overhead catenary, but couldn't get it to work all that well;
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I now have make-believe catenary! "Eye candy".....as it were, becuase I love
                                                                                                                                                                                                  electric locos ("juice trains"). 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The issues with DC vs DCC is really one of "technology" , and not much else.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  As I said in previous posts, Rule # 1 is to Keep It Simple
 (KISS), and that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  where DC comes in. I have tried DCC, and I find it  complicated, (hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  work with), not necessarily user friendly (to me), and often unreliable
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and contankerous (it doesn't work as advertised). Perhaps my OLD mind is toooo
                                                                                                                                                                                                  small to absorb all of the memory and digital stuff, or maybe I am just
                                                                                                                                                                                                  happy with my remote, wireless walkaround DC system.....maybe I am just
                                                                                                                                                                                                  prejudiced in favor of the old ways (DC). More to the point, I'm just an old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  fart who doesn't want to change! LOL      (DC works; "why" change it?) 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My biggest resentment toward DCC is seeing the problems so many of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                  local buds who have DCC are having with it. It's a near-constant love-hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                  relationship that they guys have to go thru. Seems they spend so much of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  their train time fiddling with the DCC controllers and trying to figure out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  find and then fix a gremlin, to a point that when it's all said
 and done, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are exhausted, frustrated, tired and fed up with the hobby for the night.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Luckily, 1 guy has Digitrax, so he can switch to DC and at least get something
                                                                                                                                                                                                  going when I visit. Another guys seems to get a constant "hum" from all of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  his DCC locos. They run for awhile, but then, often, in the middle of their
                                                                                                                                                                                                  run....they stop dead. He never ever gets them restarted! This occurs after
                                                                                                                                                                                                  about 3-5 minutes of run time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My second issue with some of this new tech stuff is with the sound systems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I find, from experience, that onboard sound in HO is more of an annoyance
                                                                                                                                                                                                  than an asset. Sound in HO is tinny,  artificial and pretty unrealistic. I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                  make better sound with make-believe mouth noises! Quite different from HO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the onboard sound, especially from MTH in O scale is dramatically different 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and significantly improved and well worth the costs. One of my buds has an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  O scale (mostly MTH equipment)
 empire, and it is impressive, complete with
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sounds and even vibrations (as a result of the onboard sound). Here in SC,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  older houses have large (huge) basements (train rooms), so O scale is pretty 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  popular, as is LGB and some of the larger scales.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Take a chill pill and don't get your grundies in a bundle over DCC!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have a great one....remember, "Model Railroading is FUN"....!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave


                                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12310
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: In All Fairness... (Was: DCC)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  OK then, you have all convinced me.  ALL of my beloved Hi F drive Athearn remains only DC.  All of my early geared drive versions of Athearn shall likewise remanin DC.  Even my one and only Athearn RTR F7 will not be converted to DCC.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I shall remain true to DC until the very end.  And besides that they will all remain soundless, I can make enough noise on my own.

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Tue, 11/10/09, John Barlow <jdenver4150@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: John Barlow <jdenver4150@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] In All Fairness... (Was: DCC)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 5:18 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  





                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Folks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The DCC is not the "price jacker" per se...the sound add-on is the culprit for locos (and a few BLI livestock cars.) I think we all remember the now archaic and costly Pacific Fast Mail sound system of the late-1970's/early-1980's and the expensive support equipment pieces that required, sold separately, that could run over $1,000 before you did anything to any locomotive...and that was nearly 30 years ago. I had one Westside B&O T-3a converted to that system, but that was as far as I got into that. I never could afford the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  works...and that was circa 1979 (?) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The one regime Spectrum recently went off the deep end about with DCC was/is their Peter Witt series of trolley cars. The box labeling says DCC...but the plugs in the box exist to run it DC. They do not advertise that fact. Not one of their smarter moves, in my book. There is no sound feature attached. I purchased an unpainted example for a mythical Central Pennsylvania interurban line adjunct to my PRR-Reading main design.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  This is all outside the vintage realm, I admit. I scour websites for classics and used to attend swaps and shows until I could no longer drive (I'm a partially Disabled Vet). My Varney GT-101 Ohio Seamless Tube gond is a recent acquisition I love. I still chuckle over Varney's G-101 with all the PRR lettering and symbol that countless successor firms copied, putting the class G-101 on the car sides. There was no PRR class G-101 gond...that was Varney's catalog number way back when. Some were painted or molded in freight car red...others black...all were wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway...DCC is an idea that has more blind followers and devotees then it deserves, as I see it. Go back 32 years to July 1977's edition of Model Railroader and you can see where this mania was in its infancy...but not DCC then. To me DCC puts the modeler/operator further away from actually controlling his miniature charges...and if the day comes when a mere layout owner simply turns on the power to let a computer run his/her layout for them...the hobby will truly be dead...and I'm sure I will be by then as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  John
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  *******************************************************************************************************
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Tue, 11/10/09, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: DCC
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 4:15 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The for runner of DCC, command control, such as the CTC16 system, and other analog systems, got to where they were very reliable, but you know these computer geeks couldn't leave well enough alone, they just had to fix it, so DCC was born, and its been a thorn in everyones side since.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It drives the price of your average locomotive up by about $100 if it comes with DCC decoder installed, one of the things I noticed at Dana's during the train sales, the DCC stuff was built specifically for Murphy's law to take full advantage of, while my DC trains run around the outside loop, (which is all the DC operation thats left on the West Hernando Central), the guys are in the pit, (inside the layout) scratching their heads, even though Les is one of the best DCC guru's around, I have yet to see a single train of his turn a wheel, he's too busy working on everyone else's trains trying to get them to run, go figure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm sticking with DC for a long time to come, I get plenty of DCC use in my Trainz RR Simulator on my computer, its at least dependable as far as DCC goes, and with the speaker system I have connected to my comp, I get much better sound than those guys who spend the big bucks on all the BLI, P2k and Genesis, with DCC and sound.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  You can only get so much sound out of a 2 inch speaker, and only so much bass, without the base, its going to sound tinny for sure........ ....:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "WK2SHR@aol. com" <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 1:23:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: DCC

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  John:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think all of us vintageHO DC guys have had DCC thrown at us at one time
                                                                                                                                                                                                  or another. It's not really vintageHO, so I don't use it! LOL. Always a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                  excuse and it works too....

                                                                                                                                                                                                  DCC is here to stay, but I doubt that it will ever overtake DC entirely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  DC is still too popular, and there are still too many folks who won't, or 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  cannot afford to retrofit large fleets of locos to work on DCC. I see this
                                                                                                                                                                                                  here....lots and lots of DCC guys still have large stables of un-DCC DC engines
                                                                                                                                                                                                  that will never get the DCC treatment. This is particularly true for a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the guys who still have, own and use older Mantua, Model Power, Athearn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  MDC/Rondhouse, and even older Atlas and Bowser locos....most are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  worth the cost of DCC retrofits, but well worth continued use as good running
                                                                                                                                                                                                  DC engines. The flip side is that a lot of potential
 DCC guys don't know how
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to install decoders in older engines, and won't take a chance on disassembling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  perfectly good running older-vintage locos (for fear of not being able to put
                                                                                                                                                                                                  them back together again!).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Of course, if you really want to get vintage, try doing O (or HO) in outside
                                                                                                                                                                                                  3rd rail using AC. I think outside 3rd rail was a common modeling venue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  up until the mid-50s in O scale. I am trying to do outside 3rd rail in HO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  but mine will be a non-op system, strictly for looks for some suburban trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (working on an elevated railway (EL) and possibly a couple of subway lines).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (I also tried doing overhead catenary, but couldn't get it to work all that well;
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I now have make-believe catenary! "Eye candy".....as it were, becuase I love
                                                                                                                                                                                                  electric locos ("juice trains"). 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The issues with DC vs DCC is really one of "technology" , and not much else.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  As I said in previous posts, Rule # 1 is to Keep It Simple
 (KISS), and that is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  where DC comes in. I have tried DCC, and I find it  complicated, (hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  work with), not necessarily user friendly (to me), and often unreliable
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and contankerous (it doesn't work as advertised). Perhaps my OLD mind is toooo
                                                                                                                                                                                                  small to absorb all of the memory and digital stuff, or maybe I am just
                                                                                                                                                                                                  happy with my remote, wireless walkaround DC system.....maybe I am just
                                                                                                                                                                                                  prejudiced in favor of the old ways (DC). More to the point, I'm just an old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  fart who doesn't want to change! LOL      (DC works; "why" change it?) 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My biggest resentment toward DCC is seeing the problems so many of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                  local buds who have DCC are having with it. It's a near-constant love-hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                  relationship that they guys have to go thru. Seems they spend so much of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  their train time fiddling with the DCC controllers and trying to figure out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  find and then fix a gremlin, to a point that when it's all said
 and done, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are exhausted, frustrated, tired and fed up with the hobby for the night.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Luckily, 1 guy has Digitrax, so he can switch to DC and at least get something
                                                                                                                                                                                                  going when I visit. Another guys seems to get a constant "hum" from all of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  his DCC locos. They run for awhile, but then, often, in the middle of their
                                                                                                                                                                                                  run....they stop dead. He never ever gets them restarted! This occurs after
                                                                                                                                                                                                  about 3-5 minutes of run time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My second issue with some of this new tech stuff is with the sound systems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I find, from experience, that onboard sound in HO is more of an annoyance
                                                                                                                                                                                                  than an asset. Sound in HO is tinny,  artificial and pretty unrealistic. I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                  make better sound with make-believe mouth noises! Quite different from HO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the onboard sound, especially from MTH in O scale is dramatically different 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and significantly improved and well worth the costs. One of my buds has an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  O scale (mostly MTH equipment)
 empire, and it is impressive, complete with
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sounds and even vibrations (as a result of the onboard sound). Here in SC,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  older houses have large (huge) basements (train rooms), so O scale is pretty 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  popular, as is LGB and some of the larger scales.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Take a chill pill and don't get your grundies in a bundle over DCC!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have a great one....remember, "Model Railroading is FUN"....!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave




                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12311
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: In All Fairness... (Was: DCC)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The main thing about the PFM and PBL systems is 
that the big $$$ were in the console.  I could (still can) install PFM 
sound in a loco for less than $10, plus the cost of the speaker.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 5:18 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] In All 
  Fairness... (Was: DCC)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Folks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The DCC is not the "price jacker" per se...the sound add-on is the 
        culprit for locos (and a few BLI livestock cars.) I think we all 
        remember the now archaic and costly Pacific Fast Mail sound system of 
        the late-1970's/early-1980's and the expensive support equipment pieces 
        that required, sold separately, that could run over $1,000 before you 
        did anything to any locomotive...and that was nearly 30 years 
        ago. I had one Westside B&O T-3a converted to that system, but 
        that was as far as I got into that. I never could afford the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  works...and that was circa 1979 (?) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The one regime Spectrum recently went off the deep end about with 
        DCC was/is their Peter Witt series of trolley cars. The box labeling 
        says DCC...but the plugs in the box exist to run it DC. They do not 
        advertise that fact. Not one of their smarter moves, in my book. There 
        is no sound feature attached. I purchased an unpainted example for a 
        mythical Central Pennsylvania interurban line adjunct to my PRR-Reading 
        main design.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  This is all outside the vintage realm, I admit. I scour websites 
        for classics and used to attend swaps and shows until I could no longer 
        drive (I'm a partially Disabled Vet). My Varney GT-101 Ohio Seamless 
        Tube gond is a recent acquisition I love. I still chuckle over Varney's 
        G-101 with all the PRR lettering and symbol that countless successor 
        firms copied, putting the class G-101 on the car sides. There was no PRR 
        class G-101 gond...that was Varney's catalog number way back when. Some 
        were painted or molded in freight car red...others black...all were 
        wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway...DCC is an idea that has more blind followers and devotees 
        then it deserves, as I see it. Go back 32 years to July 1977's edition 
        of Model Railroader and you can see where this mania 
        was in its infancy...but not DCC then. To me DCC puts the 
        modeler/operator further away from actually controlling his miniature 
        charges...and if the day comes when a mere layout owner simply turns on 
        the power to let a computer run his/her layout for them...the hobby will 
        truly be dead...and I'm sure I will be by then as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  John
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  *******************************************************************************************************
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Tue, 11/10/09, Gary Woodard 
        <betsy662@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
          Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
          Re: DCC
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tuesday, November 
          10, 2009, 4:15 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The for runner of DCC, command control, such as the CTC16 
          system, and other analog systems, got to where they were very 
          reliable, but you know these computer geeks couldn't leave well 
          enough alone, they just had to fix it, so DCC was born, and its 
          been a thorn in everyones side since.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  It drives the price of your average locomotive up by about $100 
          if it comes with DCC decoder installed, one of the things I noticed at 
          Dana's during the train sales, the DCC stuff was built specifically 
          for Murphy's law to take full advantage of, while my DC trains run 
          around the outside loop, (which is all the DC operation thats left on 
          the West Hernando Central), the guys are in the pit, (inside the 
          layout) scratching their heads, even though Les is one of the best DCC 
          guru's around, I have yet to see a single train of his turn a wheel, 
          he's too busy working on everyone else's trains trying to get them to 
          run, go figure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm sticking with DC for a long time to come, I get plenty of DCC 
          use in my Trainz RR Simulator on my computer, its at least dependable 
          as far as DCC goes, and with the speaker system I have connected to my 
          comp, I get much better sound than those guys who spend the big bucks 
          on all the BLI, P2k and Genesis, with DCC and sound.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  You can only get so much sound out of a 2 inch speaker, and only 
          so much bass, without the base, its going to sound tinny for 
          sure........ ....:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ 
          pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important 
          questions! 
          

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          From: "WK2SHR@aol. com" 
          <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou 
          ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tue, 
          November 10, 2009 1:23:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 
          DCC

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  John:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think all of us vintageHO DC guys 
          have had DCC thrown at us at one time
                                                                                                                                                                                                  or another. It's not really 
          vintageHO, so I don't use it! LOL. Always a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                  excuse and it 
          works too....

                                                                                                                                                                                                  DCC is here to stay, but I doubt that it will 
          ever overtake DC entirely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  DC is still too popular, and there are 
          still too many folks who won't, or 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  cannot afford to retrofit large 
          fleets of locos to work on DCC. I see this
                                                                                                                                                                                                  here....lots and lots of 
          DCC guys still have large stables of un-DCC DC engines
                                                                                                                                                                                                  that will 
          never get the DCC treatment. This is particularly true for a lot 
          of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the guys who still have, own and use older Mantua, Model Power, 
          Athearn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  MDC/Rondhouse, and even older Atlas and Bowser 
          locos....most are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  worth the cost of DCC retrofits, but well 
          worth continued use as good running
                                                                                                                                                                                                  DC engines. The flip side is 
          that a lot of potential DCC guys don't know how
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to install decoders 
          in older engines, and won't take a chance on 
          disassembling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  perfectly good running older-vintage locos (for fear 
          of not being able to put
                                                                                                                                                                                                  them back together again!).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Of 
          course, if you really want to get vintage, try doing O (or HO) in 
          outside
                                                                                                                                                                                                  3rd rail using AC. I think outside 3rd rail was a common 
          modeling venue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  up until the mid-50s in O scale. I am trying to do 
          outside 3rd rail in HO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  but mine will be a non-op system, strictly 
          for looks for some suburban trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (working on an elevated railway 
          (EL) and possibly a couple of subway lines).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (I also tried doing 
          overhead catenary, but couldn't get it to work all that well;
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I now 
          have make-believe catenary! "Eye candy".....as it were, becuase I 
          love
                                                                                                                                                                                                  electric locos ("juice trains"). 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The issues with DC vs 
          DCC is really one of "technology" , and not much else.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  As I said in 
          previous posts, Rule # 1 is to Keep It Simple (KISS), and that 
          is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  where DC comes in. I have tried DCC, and I find it  
          complicated, (hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  work with), not necessarily user friendly (to 
          me), and often unreliable
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and contankerous (it doesn't work as 
          advertised). Perhaps my OLD mind is toooo
                                                                                                                                                                                                  small to absorb all of 
          the memory and digital stuff, or maybe I am just
                                                                                                                                                                                                  happy with my 
          remote, wireless walkaround DC system.....maybe I am 
          just
                                                                                                                                                                                                  prejudiced in favor of the old ways (DC). More to the point, 
          I'm just an old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  fart who doesn't want to change! 
          LOL      (DC works; "why" change it?) 
          

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My biggest resentment toward DCC is seeing the problems so 
          many of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                  local buds who have DCC are having with it. It's a 
          near-constant love-hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                  relationship that they guys have to go 
          thru. Seems they spend so much of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  their train time fiddling with 
          the DCC controllers and trying to figure out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  find and then fix a 
          gremlin, to a point that when it's all said and done, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are 
          exhausted, frustrated, tired and fed up with the hobby for the 
          night.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Luckily, 1 guy has Digitrax, so he can switch to DC and at 
          least get something
                                                                                                                                                                                                  going when I visit. Another guys seems to get a 
          constant "hum" from all of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  his DCC locos. They run for awhile, but 
          then, often, in the middle of their
                                                                                                                                                                                                  run....they stop dead. He never 
          ever gets them restarted! This occurs after
                                                                                                                                                                                                  about 3-5 minutes of 
          run time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My second issue with some of this new tech stuff is 
          with the sound systems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I find, from experience, that onboard sound 
          in HO is more of an annoyance
                                                                                                                                                                                                  than an asset. Sound in HO is 
          tinny,  artificial and pretty unrealistic. I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                  make better 
          sound with make-believe mouth noises! Quite different from HO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the 
          onboard sound, especially from MTH in O scale is dramatically 
          different 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and significantly improved and well worth the costs. One 
          of my buds has an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  O scale (mostly MTH equipment) empire, and it is 
          impressive, complete with
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sounds and even vibrations (as a result 
          of the onboard sound). Here in SC,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  older houses have large (huge) 
          basements (train rooms), so O scale is pretty 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  popular, as is LGB 
          and some of the larger scales.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Take a chill pill and don't get 
          your grundies in a bundle over DCC!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have a great 
          one....remember, "Model Railroading is 
          FUN"....!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12312
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: In All Fairness... (Was: DCC)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, you folks are perfectly correct in your asessment of DCC of course, 
but there are those who will die by it-- as you can imagine. Those who have the 
financial and intellectual means are gradually developing an area of technology 
in this society which only they can fully appreciate. Puts them in a class 
by themselves, and they love it. But that aside, there are those who just like 
to mess with the electronic side of things and the actual running of the trains 
is an afterthought at best. And, in my case, I have this 4 X 8 layout (used 
to have a much larger one) that can be run on both pure DC and a basic 
DCC setup. (I don't give a dang about the DCC but just have it so I can say 
I have a DCC layout). Actually, the reason for having the layout at 
all is the neat scenery and cutsie stuff I have on it that satisfies 
my artistic sense, I love building kits of buildings, cars, engines 
(DC) and getting them all to look gorgeous and work well too. It's just 
another example of how the hobby can satisfy the needs of many 
people. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/10/2009 7:23:07 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
wobbly913@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  OK then, you have all convinced me.  ALL of my beloved Hi F 
        drive Athearn remains only DC.  All of my early geared drive 
        versions of Athearn shall likewise remanin DC.  Even my one and 
        only Athearn RTR F7 will not be converted to DCC.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I shall remain true to DC until the very end.  And besides 
        that they will all remain soundless, I can make enough noise on my 
        own.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Tue, 11/10/09, John Barlow 
        <jdenver4150@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
          John Barlow <jdenver4150@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
          In All Fairness... (Was: DCC)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
          vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 5:18 
          AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          

          
          

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
              
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Folks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The DCC is not the "price jacker" per se...the sound add-on 
                is the culprit for locos (and a few BLI livestock cars.) I 
                think we all remember the now archaic and costly Pacific Fast 
                Mail sound system of the late-1970's/early-1980's and the 
                expensive support equipment pieces that required, sold 
                separately, that could run over $1,000 before you did anything 
                to any locomotive...and that was nearly 30 years ago. I had 
                one Westside B&O T-3a converted to that system, but that was 
                as far as I got into that. I never could afford the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                  works...and that was circa 1979 (?) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The one regime Spectrum recently went off the deep end 
                about with DCC was/is their Peter Witt series of trolley cars. 
                The box labeling says DCC...but the plugs in the box exist 
                to run it DC. They do not advertise that fact. Not one of their 
                smarter moves, in my book. There is no sound feature attached. I 
                purchased an unpainted example for a mythical Central 
                Pennsylvania interurban line adjunct to my PRR-Reading main 
                design.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                  This is all outside the vintage realm, I admit. I scour 
                websites for classics and used to attend swaps and shows until I 
                could no longer drive (I'm a partially Disabled Vet). My Varney 
                GT-101 Ohio Seamless Tube gond is a recent acquisition I love. I 
                still chuckle over Varney's G-101 with all the PRR lettering and 
                symbol that countless successor firms copied, putting the class 
                G-101 on the car sides. There was no PRR class G-101 gond...that 
                was Varney's catalog number way back when. Some were painted or 
                molded in freight car red...others black...all were wrong.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyway...DCC is an idea that has more blind followers and 
                devotees then it deserves, as I see it. Go back 32 years to July 
                1977's edition of Model Railroader and you can 
                see where this mania was in its infancy...but not DCC then. To 
                me DCC puts the modeler/operator further away from actually 
                controlling his miniature charges...and if the day comes when a 
                mere layout owner simply turns on the power to let a computer 
                run his/her layout for them...the hobby will truly be 
                dead...and I'm sure I will be by then as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                  John
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                  *******************************************************************************************************
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Tue, 11/10/09, Gary Woodard 
                <betsy662@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
                  Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: 
                  [vintageHO] Re: DCC
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: 
                  Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 4:15 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The for runner of DCC, command control, such as the 
                  CTC16 system, and other analog systems, got to where they were 
                  very reliable, but you know these computer geeks couldn't 
                  leave well enough alone, they just had to fix it, so DCC was 
                  born, and its been a thorn in everyones side since.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  It drives the price of your average locomotive up by 
                  about $100 if it comes with DCC decoder installed, one of the 
                  things I noticed at Dana's during the train sales, the DCC 
                  stuff was built specifically for Murphy's law to take full 
                  advantage of, while my DC trains run around the outside loop, 
                  (which is all the DC operation thats left on the West Hernando 
                  Central), the guys are in the pit, (inside the layout) 
                  scratching their heads, even though Les is one of the best DCC 
                  guru's around, I have yet to see a single train of his turn a 
                  wheel, he's too busy working on everyone else's trains trying 
                  to get them to run, go figure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm sticking with DC for a long time to come, I get 
                  plenty of DCC use in my Trainz RR Simulator on my computer, 
                  its at least dependable as far as DCC goes, and with the 
                  speaker system I have connected to my comp, I get much better 
                  sound than those guys who spend the big bucks on all the BLI, 
                  P2k and Genesis, with DCC and sound.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  You can only get so much sound out of a 2 inch speaker, 
                  and only so much bass, without the base, its going to sound 
                  tinny for sure........ ....:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeintern 
                  ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's 
                  two most important questions! 
                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  From: 
                  "WK2SHR@aol. com" <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou 
                  ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
                  Tue, November 10, 2009 1:23:34 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
                  Re: DCC

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  John:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think 
                  all of us vintageHO DC guys have had DCC thrown at us at one 
                  time
                                                                                                                                                                                                  or another. It's not really vintageHO, so I don't use 
                  it! LOL. Always a good
                                                                                                                                                                                                  excuse and it works 
                  too....

                                                                                                                                                                                                  DCC is here to stay, but I doubt that it will 
                  ever overtake DC entirely.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  DC is still too popular, and 
                  there are still too many folks who won't, or 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  cannot afford 
                  to retrofit large fleets of locos to work on DCC. I see 
                  this
                                                                                                                                                                                                  here....lots and lots of DCC guys still have large 
                  stables of un-DCC DC engines
                                                                                                                                                                                                  that will never get the DCC 
                  treatment. This is particularly true for a lot of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the guys 
                  who still have, own and use older Mantua, Model Power, 
                  Athearn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  MDC/Rondhouse, and even older Atlas and Bowser 
                  locos....most are not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  worth the cost of DCC retrofits, but 
                  well worth continued use as good running
                                                                                                                                                                                                  DC engines. The 
                  flip side is that a lot of potential DCC guys don't know 
                  how
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to install decoders in older engines, and won't take a 
                  chance on disassembling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  perfectly good running 
                  older-vintage locos (for fear of not being able to put
                                                                                                                                                                                                  them 
                  back together again!).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Of course, if you really want to 
                  get vintage, try doing O (or HO) in outside
                                                                                                                                                                                                  3rd rail using 
                  AC. I think outside 3rd rail was a common modeling venue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  up 
                  until the mid-50s in O scale. I am trying to do outside 3rd 
                  rail in HO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  but mine will be a non-op system, strictly for 
                  looks for some suburban trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (working on an elevated 
                  railway (EL) and possibly a couple of subway lines).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (I 
                  also tried doing overhead catenary, but couldn't get it to 
                  work all that well;
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I now have make-believe catenary! "Eye 
                  candy".....as it were, becuase I love
                                                                                                                                                                                                  electric locos 
                  ("juice trains"). 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The issues with DC vs DCC is really 
                  one of "technology" , and not much else.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  As I said in 
                  previous posts, Rule # 1 is to Keep It Simple (KISS), and that 
                  is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  where DC comes in. I have tried DCC, and I find it  
                  complicated, (hard to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  work with), not necessarily user 
                  friendly (to me), and often unreliable
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and contankerous (it 
                  doesn't work as advertised). Perhaps my OLD mind is 
                  toooo
                                                                                                                                                                                                  small to absorb all of the memory and digital stuff, 
                  or maybe I am just
                                                                                                                                                                                                  happy with my remote, wireless 
                  walkaround DC system.....maybe I am just
                                                                                                                                                                                                  prejudiced in 
                  favor of the old ways (DC). More to the point, I'm just an 
                  old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  fart who doesn't want to change! 
                  LOL      (DC works; "why" change it?) 
                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My biggest resentment toward DCC is seeing the 
                  problems so many of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                  local buds who have DCC are having 
                  with it. It's a near-constant love-hate
                                                                                                                                                                                                  relationship that 
                  they guys have to go thru. Seems they spend so much 
                  of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  their train time fiddling with the DCC controllers and 
                  trying to figure out,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  find and then fix a gremlin, to a 
                  point that when it's all said and done, they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are exhausted, 
                  frustrated, tired and fed up with the hobby for the 
                  night.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Luckily, 1 guy has Digitrax, so he can switch to DC 
                  and at least get something
                                                                                                                                                                                                  going when I visit. Another guys 
                  seems to get a constant "hum" from all of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  his DCC locos. 
                  They run for awhile, but then, often, in the middle of 
                  their
                                                                                                                                                                                                  run....they stop dead. He never ever gets them 
                  restarted! This occurs after
                                                                                                                                                                                                  about 3-5 minutes of run 
                  time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My second issue with some of this new tech stuff 
                  is with the sound systems.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I find, from experience, that 
                  onboard sound in HO is more of an annoyance
                                                                                                                                                                                                  than an asset. 
                  Sound in HO is tinny,  artificial and pretty unrealistic. 
                  I can
                                                                                                                                                                                                  make better sound with make-believe mouth noises! 
                  Quite different from HO,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the onboard sound, especially from 
                  MTH in O scale is dramatically different 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and significantly 
                  improved and well worth the costs. One of my buds has an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  O 
                  scale (mostly MTH equipment) empire, and it is impressive, 
                  complete with
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sounds and even vibrations (as a result of 
                  the onboard sound). Here in SC,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  older houses have large 
                  (huge) basements (train rooms), so O scale is pretty 
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  popular, as is LGB and some of the larger 
                  scales.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Take a chill pill and don't get your grundies 
                  in a bundle over DCC!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have a great one....remember, 
                  "Model Railroading is 
                  FUN"....!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave




                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12313
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
WEll, I am going to stay "vintageHO" and go back to clock work!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Are you old enough to remember wind-up trains in HO? I think there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
was a German company that used to make them in the 50s for HO trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12314
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  HI John:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Your story is right on and, in my opinion, follows some of the over, over
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
detailing of model trains in recent years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Some detail is nice, but any more, too many of the newer (and more 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
expensive) models are so detailed that parts often break, fall off, or
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
arrive in their boxes with parts broken (shipping).So, how much is too
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
much?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I STILL like to add my OWN details. That's part of the FUN of the hobby.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
And, I don't over-detail to where a model becomes too delicate or unfriendly
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to handle.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12315
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Here are some pics. I hope I loaded them correctly for viewing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/9/2009 6:18:38 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
nvrr49@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Please, 
  please post some pictures!  I am currently working on one, well, more 
  like when I get in the mood. Quite the project.  Did you use the 
  cardboard supplied for the pulley's or did you substitute something 
  else?  I would like to use something else, but have not come up with 
  anything I like.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just had a tooth pulled and a bone graft, so now I 
  will take my pain pills now and be out for several hours.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kent 
  Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... 
  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Speaking of what you can do with cardstock and wood, I 
  have built 5 or so  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of the Ideal Aeoplane and Supply Co. Bucyrus 
  150 ton wreckers (still able to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > be  found on eBay ocassionally) 
  which seem to me to have been the state of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the art  in cardstock 
  and wood back when they first came out. The main 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > reason that I 
  have  an inordinate interest in that car is that my late bro built 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > one in 1943 when he  was about 16, and thus it carries lots of 
  nostalgia for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > me. We still have it in  the family, and I have 
  always wondered exactly 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > when Ideal first came out with  it. I 
  assume it was a prewar product as war 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > demands made it more or 
  less  impossible for kits to be newly produced at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > time. If 
  anyone can nail down a  begin date for that car I would appreciate 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > In a message dated 11/9/2009 2:58:27 P.M. Pacific Standard 
  Time,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > WK2SHR@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi 
  Ralph:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Great post! Enjoyed hearing about the  "old" 
  stuff......i.e. the BB Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > New Haven cars. I have those too. 
  Some  of the them have the orange window
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > band, but I did paint a 
  few of them with  a green window band. Also, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > painted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  the roofs black. These are hauled with  DL-109s or the Frateschi Co-Co 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > (EP-3 or
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > EP-4 lookalike) electric.  Sometimes, these 
  cars end up in a PRR train and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > are handled with a  GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > As for the DCC comment -- no doubt DCC is great when it works. 
  A  friend
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of mine has an all-DCC layout, and has a lot of trouble 
  getting  stuff to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > It works - sometimes, for 
  awhile, but then, gremlins creep  in. More often
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > than not, he 
  runs his layout on DC! I think DCC is just too  complicated for
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  many guys and they have a great deal of trouble working  with it. Early 
  on,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I tried DCC, but found I didn't really like it for the  type 
  of operation 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > was used to. Great for large layouts, big 
  clubs  and public displays, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > much good for small 
  home layouts where DC is  more likely to work better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > (I think 
  DCC is great for multi-operator  layouts and layouts where there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  are more than 2 locos on 2 different trains  being operated; less than 
  that,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > stick with DC). Too much has been made of  DCC. In most 
  cases, I am finding
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that DCC isn't really all that necessary  for 
  most home layouts, most of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > are generally smaller than 
  12 x 12  feet (a small bedroom in the house).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  My  thoughts,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




                                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12316
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  luvprr@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from luvprr@... included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Here are some pics. I hope I loaded them correctly for viewing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nice looking crane.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"A man's GOT to know his limits."
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    -Inspector Harry Callahan, "Magnum Force"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12317
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Short comment ... as stated I am in DCC, and think despite the problems 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
mentioned I think its the way to go...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have to add that I stick to the KISS rule ... DCC can be a tool to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
keep things simple if applied properly... I have a large layout with all 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
tracks connected, no blocks, everything hard wired.. all turnouts 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
operated with pushrods ... minimal wiring, wouldnt be possible with DC.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> It drives the price of your average locomotive up by about $100 if it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> comes with DCC decoder installed, one of the things I noticed at 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dana's during the train sales, the DCC stuff was built specifically 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> for Murphy's law to take full advantage of, while my DC trains run 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> around the outside loop, (which is all the DC operation thats left on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the West Hernando Central), the guys are in the pit, (inside the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> layout) scratching their heads, even though Les is one of the best DCC 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> guru's around, I have yet to see a single train of his turn a wheel, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> he's too busy working on everyone else's trains trying to get them to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> run, go figure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sadly, this matches my experience... however that is only caused by 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
foolish manufacturers who arent capable or willing to stay with the NMRA 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
norm... everyone tries to cook his own soup, they often introduce 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
worthless gimmiks which disturb the whole system...   But , this doesnt 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
mean DCC is bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> You can only get so much sound out of a 2 inch speaker, and only so 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> much bass, without the base, its going to sound tinny for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> sure............:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Another issue which is caused by wrong treatment of a thing thats 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
basically good.... I considered sound a toy train thing , when first 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
encountered it on our club layout... Why? because everybody operates his 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
locos at much too loud settings !  You view your trains at a distance 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
which would bebetween 100 and 1000 feet in reality... sound would be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
noticeable but not loud, and you wouldnt hear the fireman chat with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
engineer... I was convinced  that sound adds to the athmospere of a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
layout when first hearing a Lionel Turbine, more dramatic than all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
steamers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
And , regarding the problem of converting multiple locos... agree with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
that too... I soon realized that I wont live to convert all... however , 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
this compares to the problem of operating trains of quite different eras 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
which might not be compatible due to different flanges, couplers, scale 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
etc... If I had the money I would have at least two layouts, one which 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
would be rather correct to scale, for operating all the stuff - no 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
matter how old - that is compatible with todays commercial models, and a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
second one for all the cars and locos with may look odd there but which 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I hesitate to convert ...  if ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12318
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks! Took a lot of work. For anyone fussy about decals I need to 
point out that the lettering is not a decal but the original black paper backing 
that was intended to be cut out and glued on to the model. Not a bad match 
except in strong light where it looks like faded black paint anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/10/2009 11:51:46 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
r.t.jones@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  luvprr@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from 
  luvprr@... included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Here are some pics. I hope I 
  loaded them correctly for viewing

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nice looking 
  crane.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -- 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                
       Rick Jones

                                                                                                                                                                                                  "A man's GOT to know his 
  limits."
                                                                                                                                                                                                      -Inspector Harry Callahan, "Magnum 
  Force"


                                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12319
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  Great for large layouts, big clubs and public displays, but not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> much good for small home layouts where DC is more likely to work better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> (I think DCC is great for multi-operator layouts and layouts where there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> are more than 2 locos on 2 different trains being operated; less than 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> that,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> stick with DC). Too much has been made of DCC. In most cases, I am finding
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> that DCC isn't really all that necessary for most home layouts, most 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> of which
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> are generally smaller than 12 x 12 feet (a small bedroom in the house).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
from my experience its just the opposite ... on large ( club ) layouts, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the DCC gremlins will creep up... with multiple blocks, and related 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
electronics to keep the necessary boosters and relays in sync the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
weirdest things may happen... My uneducated opinion ( I am not an 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
electronics person ) is that the whole DCC thing is on a level of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
development comparable to a PC of 1995 vintage .... remember the mess 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
you had then to connect a PC to the Internet, or to a printer?  DCC 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
works OK as long as its SIMPLE.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
On a medium size layout it will most likely work reasonably fine, with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the occasional piece of equipment that will act crazy ... but we had 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
this in DCC too... jammed gearboxes, faulty motors --- why shouldnt a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
decoder have a bug too?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12320
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC (was Replying to Jim H)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  HI:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Well....those were just MY humble opinions, and they were based directly
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
on my own experiences with DCC and of course, my most recent observations.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Some issues with DCC:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
a. As with most electronics (like cars), electronics are susceptible to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
picking up all sorts of "bugs" and things that cause malfunctions due to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
logic gates and other odd-ball happenings that NO ONE can ever find or
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
fix. They just end up fixing themselves, usually with a restart, reboot, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
reprogram, or start-over action.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The problem with these events is that they often happen at the most
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
INOPPORTUNE times such as with a public display (at a train show) or
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
during a major movement on a large club layout. Generally, these occur
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
at a time when a large number of eye balls are fixated on the layout
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
wanting to see the "new technology" work, only to see it flop. Happens
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
every time, especially at public displays and train show! LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
b. DCC, as a new technolgy, seems to have plateau'd and run it's course
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
in the model train hobby. It has NOT over taken DC or even AC operation,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
both of which still remain popular. If this were not the case, then there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
would be neither DC (or AC) locos or DC (or AC) power packs being produced
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
today. While DCC will continue to attract new folks and even some older 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
ones, it seems to have stablized considerably, from the great interest of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
some years ago. I think price and costs of new equipment has had much to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
do with this, but complexity has helped too. Overall, the "glow" of DCC has
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
largely worn off.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I was not involved with the Internet in 1995, so didnt' experience any of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the problematic issues you are referring to. I was still running good old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Radio Teletype on my HF radio gear at the time, and had not yet made
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the transition to "computers" and the Internet. Still run Radio Teletype --
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
it works.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
As for using DC .... personally, I don't use power packs. I have DC power
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
supplies with handheld, walkaround train controllers. For my size of layout,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
these work very well. Essentially a DC powered system but close enough
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to DCC for me! LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12321
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I never had clock work trains, but I did have a clockwork highway, it came with two cars, it was cool, I don't know where dad picked it up, but I played with that thing til the springs broke in the little cars.........:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 12:11:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: DCC

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  WEll, I am going to stay "vintageHO" and go back to clock work!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Are you old enough to remember wind-up trains in HO? I think there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  was a German company that used to make them in the 50s for HO trains.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12322
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  GAry:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
My first train was a "wind up" (later, called "clock work"). I think I had it
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
for years, and years. It was in 1951 or 52 and was about the size of an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
O scale model. It was a rough replica, single unit (engine) of the UP M-1000.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
As I recall, it had the Armour Yellow body and a medium or dark brown roof
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and a very large key stuck in the side of it (the key did not come out; probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
as a loss prevention measure for kids' toys back then). My train had flanged
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
wheels and once wound up, could move and scoot at a pretty good clip,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
usually in a straight line (usually running into a wall or under a chair, sofa,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
etc).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
My father had a 3 rail Lionel # 252 loco and 3 passenger cars that was set
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
up at Xmas time around the tree. It was on the floor in the living room.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I used to try and run my wind up train on his 3 rail track. It seemed to fit,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
but shorted out the rest of the train! My father would get upset at me 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
because he feared that if the wind up train sat on the track too long, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
short circuit might cause a house fire. (Most of the time, he made sure the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Lionel was unplugged from the wall, but at about 5 years old, I'd already
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
figured out how to "plug in" the Lionel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
By the way, I still have the Lionel train on my fire place mantel; the old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
wind up is long gone, and I have no idea whatever happened to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
IN those days, we didn't have model railroading in our house; the Lionel
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
was called an "electric train". My father bought it for $13.00 in 1929 from
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
money he made on his paper route. He was 13 at the time. He told me HIS
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
father was very, very upset that he spent money on the Lionel, but did not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
punish him for it. This was on the eve of the 1929 Depression. My father's
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
father was a Pretzel baker in PA (and of course, during the Depression, lost
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the bakery).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(How's that for really vintage stuff??? LOL).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12323
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  My Dad's train was a pea-green 252 with freight cars (tank, box, hopper, caboose...can't recall what else).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
We used to run it with my Uncle's 225E.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I still have all of it, excpt the power pack whish went POOF! in the 60's (have a V, ZW, KW now).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I retored the 252 and all the cars (found replacemnets for the missing cars) and gave it to my brother for Christmas one year.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
He displays it, sets it up and runs it at Christmas now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Later, I got him a tin Lionel steamer (copper and brass fittings, fall-open smokebox door), and passenger cars, restored them, and gave them to him a couple of Christmases later.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 GAry:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> My first train was a "wind up" (later, called "clock work"). I think I had 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> it
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> for years, and years. It was in 1951 or 52 and was about the size of an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> O scale model. It was a rough replica, single unit (engine) of the UP 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> M-1000.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> As I recall, it had the Armour Yellow body and a medium or dark brown roof
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and a very large key stuck in the side of it (the key did not come out; 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> as a loss prevention measure for kids' toys back then). My train had 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> flanged
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> wheels and once wound up, could move and scoot at a pretty good clip,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> usually in a straight line (usually running into a wall or under a chair, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> sofa,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> etc).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> My father had a 3 rail Lionel # 252 loco and 3 passenger cars that was set
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> up at Xmas time around the tree. It was on the floor in the living room.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I used to try and run my wind up train on his 3 rail track. It seemed to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> fit,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> but shorted out the rest of the train! My father would get upset at me 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> because he feared that if the wind up train sat on the track too long, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> short circuit might cause a house fire. (Most of the time, he made sure the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Lionel was unplugged from the wall, but at about 5 years old, I'd already
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> figured out how to "plug in" the Lionel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> By the way, I still have the Lionel train on my fire place mantel; the old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> wind up is long gone, and I have no idea whatever happened to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> IN those days, we didn't have model railroading in our house; the Lionel
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> was called an "electric train". My father bought it for $13.00 in 1929 from
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> money he made on his paper route. He was 13 at the time. He told me HIS
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> father was very, very upset that he spent money on the Lionel, but did not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> punish him for it. This was on the eve of the 1929 Depression. My father's
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> father was a Pretzel baker in PA (and of course, during the Depression, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> lost
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the bakery).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> (How's that for really vintage stuff??? LOL).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12324
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Yep, mine is Pea Green too, but it pretty much in the (original) 1952
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Lionel rebuilt condition. Sometime between 1952 and 53, my father
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
sent his train back to Lionel to be rebuilt. They put on new couplers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and did some other small stuff, but when the train came back, it looked
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
pretty much the same to me back then.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I do not run this train. It sits on the mantel above the f/p in my current
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
train room, under a glass display case, on a section of original 3 rail track.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Also have what passes for a "transformer" -- one of those ancient sliders
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
that used to give my little fingers shocks in the 50s. The controller is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
actuall a "No 81 Controller Rheostat".
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12325
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thats going back, when I was little, my dad had an HO layout, he was a model railroader at that time, he also had picked up an American Flyer set for my brother in the early 50's, theres 15 years difference between my brother and I, he had that need Flyer steam engine and three passenger cars, there were some freight cars in the box as well, out of my entire family, I was the only one that got bit by the model train bug, my brother has no talent in the area of modeling, and he certainly doesn't have the money it would take to build any kind of railroad today, and be able to pay someone else to do it for him.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  His big talent is photography, while I'm into that myself, he is really good at it, my first real trainset was an N scale Postage Stamp train, put out by Aurora back in the 60's, when N scale was brand new to the hobby, from there, the rest as they say, is history!!!:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "WK2SHR@..." <WK2SHR@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 6:58:56 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: DCC

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  GAry:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My first train was a "wind up" (later, called "clock work"). I think I had it
                                                                                                                                                                                                  for years, and years. It was in 1951 or 52 and was about the size of an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  O scale model. It was a rough replica, single unit (engine) of the UP M-1000.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  As I recall, it had the Armour Yellow body and a medium or dark brown roof
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and a very large key stuck in the side of it (the key did not come out; probably
                                                                                                                                                                                                  as a loss prevention measure for kids' toys back then). My train had flanged
                                                                                                                                                                                                  wheels and once wound up, could move and scoot at a pretty good clip,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  usually in a straight line (usually running into a wall or under a chair, sofa,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  etc).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My father had a 3 rail Lionel # 252 loco and 3 passenger cars that was set
                                                                                                                                                                                                  up at Xmas time around the tree. It was on the floor in the living room.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I used to try and run my wind up train on his 3 rail track. It seemed
 to fit,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  but shorted out the rest of the train! My father would get upset at me 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  because he feared that if the wind up train sat on the track too long, the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  short circuit might cause a house fire. (Most of the time, he made sure the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Lionel was unplugged from the wall, but at about 5 years old, I'd already
                                                                                                                                                                                                  figured out how to "plug in" the Lionel.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  By the way, I still have the Lionel train on my fire place mantel; the old
                                                                                                                                                                                                  wind up is long gone, and I have no idea whatever happened to it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  IN those days, we didn't have model railroading in our house; the Lionel
                                                                                                                                                                                                  was called an "electric train". My father bought it for $13.00 in 1929 from
                                                                                                                                                                                                  money he made on his paper route. He was 13 at the time. He told me HIS
                                                                                                                                                                                                  father was very, very upset that he spent money on the Lionel, but did not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  punish him for it. This was on the eve of the 1929 Depression. My father's
                                                                                                                                                                                                  father was a Pretzel baker in PA (and of course, during the
 Depression, lost
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the bakery).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  (How's that for really vintage stuff??? LOL).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12326
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Enough with the DCC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  OK, time to stop the DCC discussion.  It is starting to degenerate into the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
pros and cons of DCC and THAT is absolutely positively off topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12327
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: was dcc, now Vintage Lionel
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have one of those, sent it to my Brother, still works.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Can't use them with an "E" unit unless you lock it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > Gary:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yep, mine is Pea Green too, but it pretty much in the (original) 1952
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Lionel rebuilt condition. Sometime between 1952 and 53, my father
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> sent his train back to Lionel to be rebuilt. They put on new couplers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and did some other small stuff, but when the train came back, it looked
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> pretty much the same to me back then.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I do not run this train. It sits on the mantel above the f/p in my current
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> train room, under a glass display case, on a section of original 3 rail 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> track.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Also have what passes for a "transformer" -- one of those ancient sliders
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> that used to give my little fingers shocks in the 50s. The controller is
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> actuall a "No 81 Controller Rheostat".
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12328
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I saw the photos, thanks.  Great
model, very nice job.  Thanks for sharing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of luvprr@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009
9:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Ideal
Wrecking car
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   






                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                      I will post some
pics tomorrow. I did use the cardstock pulleys as I wanted to keep everything
as original as possible. I obtained 1 or 2 unfinished kits where
someone tried to substitute brass pulleys but, as you will find out eventually,
the various functions that this vintage wrecker were designed
to perform will never work well or at all in any case. For instance,
there is no way to take up the slack of the cables when the boom raises, and
it's impossible to keep tension on the cables in various positions without
gluing them in place permanently- -which I finally did.. But some designer
had high expectations (or was dreaming) when this kit was manufactured (in
1939?). I just think the whole thing is so cool in any case because of the
cardstock-wood construction. The support beams can be extended, and the cab
does swivel nicely, so it looks great as a static display or maybe in a work train
on large curves. It's so obviously a vintage car that it has an appeal of its
own in that respect.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have done other
Ideal freight cars and found them to be of inferior quality compared to other
manufacturers, and so this wrecker is all that much more remarkable in the
effort that was put into its design. I'm sure you've found the large and
detailed instructions impressive too!
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                      In addition, it
was interesting to me to note how Ideal substituted various materials in
this kit as the years progressed in its manufacture. And believe it
or not, eye pins are still available but are hard to find of the correct size.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 




                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12329
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  That is gorgeous!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a pair of Ideal B&O wagon top boxcars. Fixing to replace the missing doors (Under were the doors are, it said they are Ideal). Since I don't have originals, I am fixing to use some thin balsa and make my own Superior type doors, and of course, paint them silver to match the car.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  How are you doing with the original Ideal trucks? Mine are pretty bad - can't keep the wheels in gauge for long.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Tue, 11/10/09, luvprr@... <luvprr@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: luvprr@... <luvprr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Ideal Wrecking car [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 12:16 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  





 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Here are some pics. I hope I loaded them correctly for viewing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/9/2009 6:18:38 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
nvrr49@yahoo. com writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Please, 
  please post some pictures!  I am currently working on one, well, more 
  like when I get in the mood. Quite the project.  Did you use the 
  cardboard supplied for the pulley's or did you substitute something 
  else?  I would like to use something else, but have not come up with 
  anything I like.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just had a tooth pulled and a bone graft, so now I 
  will take my pain pills now and be out for several hours.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kent 
  Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, luvprr@... 
  wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Speaking of what you can do with cardstock and wood, I 
  have built 5 or so  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of the Ideal Aeoplane and Supply Co. Bucyrus 
  150 ton wreckers (still able to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > be  found on eBay ocassionally) 
  which seem to me to have been the state of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the art  in cardstock 
  and wood back when they first came out. The main 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > reason that I 
  have  an inordinate interest in that car is that my late bro built 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > one in 1943 when he  was about 16, and thus it carries lots of 
  nostalgia for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > me. We still have it in  the family, and I have 
  always wondered exactly 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > when Ideal first came out with  it. I 
  assume it was a prewar product as war 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > demands made it more or 
  less  impossible for kits to be newly produced at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > time. If 
  anyone can nail down a  begin date for that car I would appreciate 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > In a message dated 11/9/2009 2:58:27 P.M. Pacific Standard 
  Time,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > WK2SHR@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi 
  Ralph:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Great post! Enjoyed hearing about the  "old" 
  stuff......i. e. the BB Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > New Haven cars. I have those too. 
  Some  of the them have the orange window
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > band, but I did paint a 
  few of them with  a green window band. Also, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > painted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  the roofs black. These are hauled with  DL-109s or the Frateschi Co-Co 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > (EP-3 or
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > EP-4 lookalike) electric.  Sometimes, these 
  cars end up in a PRR train and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > are handled with a  GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > As for the DCC comment -- no doubt DCC is great when it works. 
  A  friend
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of mine has an all-DCC layout, and has a lot of trouble 
  getting  stuff to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > It works - sometimes, for 
  awhile, but then, gremlins creep  in. More often
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > than not, he 
  runs his layout on DC! I think DCC is just too  complicated for
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  many guys and they have a great deal of trouble working  with it. Early 
  on,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I tried DCC, but found I didn't really like it for the  type 
  of operation 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > was used to. Great for large layouts, big 
  clubs  and public displays, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > much good for small 
  home layouts where DC is  more likely to work better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > (I think 
  DCC is great for multi-operator  layouts and layouts where there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  are more than 2 locos on 2 different trains  being operated; less than 
  that,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > stick with DC). Too much has been made of  DCC. In most 
  cases, I am finding
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that DCC isn't really all that necessary  for 
  most home layouts, most of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > which
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > are generally smaller than 
  12 x 12  feet (a small bedroom in the house).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  My  thoughts,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12330
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Since I don't run my Ideal stuff very much I don't have trouble keeping the 
Ideal trucks in gauge (figures, I guess). I think I might have some extra 
ones that came with a wrecking car kit that is missing a lot of parts, and if so 
they are available if you want them
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/10/2009 5:41:02 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
computersystemrebuild@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      That is gorgeous!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a pair of Ideal B&O 
        wagon top boxcars. Fixing to replace the missing doors (Under were the 
        doors are, it said they are Ideal). Since I don't have originals, I am 
        fixing to use some thin balsa and make my own Superior type doors, and 
        of course, paint them silver to match the car.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  How are you doing 
        with the original Ideal trucks? Mine are pretty bad - can't keep the 
        wheels in gauge for long.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Tue, 
        11/10/09, luvprr@... <luvprr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
          luvprr@... <luvprr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 
          Ideal Wrecking car [4 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
          vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 12:16 
          PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Here are some pics. I hope I loaded them correctly for 
          viewing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/9/2009 6:18:38 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
          nvrr49@yahoo. com writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Please, please post some pictures!  I am currently 
            working on one, well, more like when I get in the mood. Quite the 
            project.  Did you use the cardboard supplied for the pulley's 
            or did you substitute something else?  I would like to use 
            something else, but have not come up with anything I 
            like.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just had a tooth pulled and a bone graft, so now I will 
            take my pain pills now and be out for several hours.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kent 
            Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
            luvprr@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Speaking of what you can do with 
            cardstock and wood, I have built 5 or so  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of the Ideal 
            Aeoplane and Supply Co. Bucyrus 150 ton wreckers (still able to 
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > be  found on eBay ocassionally) which seem to me to 
            have been the state of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the art  in cardstock and wood 
            back when they first came out. The main 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > reason that I 
            have  an inordinate interest in that car is that my late bro 
            built 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > one in 1943 when he  was about 16, and thus it 
            carries lots of nostalgia for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > me. We still have it in  
            the family, and I have always wondered exactly 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > when Ideal 
            first came out with  it. I assume it was a prewar product as 
            war 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > demands made it more or less  impossible for kits 
            to be newly produced at the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > time. If anyone can nail down 
            a  begin date for that car I would appreciate 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
            it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > In a message dated 11/9/2009 2:58:27 P.M. Pacific Standard 
            Time,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > WK2SHR@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Ralph:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Great post! Enjoyed hearing 
            about the  "old" stuff......i. e. the BB Athearn
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > New 
            Haven cars. I have those too. Some  of the them have the orange 
            window
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > band, but I did paint a few of them with  a 
            green window band. Also, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > painted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the roofs black. 
            These are hauled with  DL-109s or the Frateschi Co-Co 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
            (EP-3 or
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > EP-4 lookalike) electric.  Sometimes, these 
            cars end up in a PRR train and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > are handled with a  
            GG-1.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > As for the DCC comment -- no doubt DCC is 
            great when it works. A  friend
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of mine has an all-DCC 
            layout, and has a lot of trouble getting  stuff to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
            work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > It works - sometimes, for awhile, but then, gremlins 
            creep  in. More often
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > than not, he runs his layout on 
            DC! I think DCC is just too  complicated for
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > many guys 
            and they have a great deal of trouble working  with it. Early 
            on,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I tried DCC, but found I didn't really like it for 
            the  type of operation 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > was used to. 
            Great for large layouts, big clubs  and public displays, but 
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > not
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > much good for small home layouts where DC 
            is  more likely to work better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > (I think DCC is great 
            for multi-operator  layouts and layouts where there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > are 
            more than 2 locos on 2 different trains  being operated; less 
            than that,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > stick with DC). Too much has been made of  
            DCC. In most cases, I am finding
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > that DCC isn't really all 
            that necessary  for most home layouts, most of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
            which
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > are generally smaller than 12 x 12  feet (a small 
            bedroom in the house).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > My  
            thoughts,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
            Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12331
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Stephen,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
You might like to get some art-craft embossing foil and form/rub/press  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
it over a typical model RR boxcar door.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Prime then paint it and you'll have a nicely detailed scale door.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Take a piece of regular aluminum foil from the kitchen and give it a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
quick try with your fingers as a test.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   On Nov 10, 2009, at 7:39 PM, Stephen Neubaum wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> That is gorgeous!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have a pair of Ideal B&O wagon top boxcars. Fixing to replace the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> missing doors (Under were the doors are, it said they are Ideal).  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Since I don't have originals, I am fixing to use some thin balsa and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> make my own Superior type doors, and of course, paint them silver to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> match the car.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> How are you doing with the original Ideal trucks? Mine are pretty  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> bad - can't keep the wheels in gauge for long.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- On Tue, 11/10/09, luvprr@... <luvprr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: luvprr@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Here are some pics. I hope I loaded them correctly for viewing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> In a message dated 11/9/2009 6:18:38 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> nvrr49@yahoo. com writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Please, please post some pictures!  I am currently working on one,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> well, more like when I get in the mood. Quite the project.  Did you  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> use the cardboard supplied for the pulley's or did you substitute  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> something else?  I would like to use something else, but have not  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> come up with anything I like. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12332
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 11/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Deepest Thanks and Appreciation
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  To the U. S. Marine Corps on their 234th Birthday, Tuesday, and to all 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Veterans as we celebrate their service to all of us today.  One who has 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
never hunted men nor been hunted by them will ever know the depth and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
affects of the experiences of the ones who have.  We owe to all of them 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
a debt that can never be satisfied.  We are who we are and we have what 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
we have because of all of the Peace Keepers in our history and the ones 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
who are serving now.  Give thanks to them and for them daily.  Without 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
them we could not be as we have been and are now...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
My deepest thanks and appreciation to every Peace Keeper, past, present 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and future.  My term Peace Keeper covers all Law Enforcement and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Military and all of the ones in their support systems...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks to all of the members of this train group for being there as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Stay safe...  Be greater blessed...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
For God, Country and the Peace Keepers of Our Nation...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Staton, retired Peace Keeper and Chaplain to Peace Keepers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12333
						From: jerrygart5
						Date: 11/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I agree with Dave.  I run some of my (newer) HO on a museum/club layout, so it gets "shaken up" a bit as it travels to/from the layout.  Most of the newer stuff is "superdetailed"-with fragile plastic windshield wipers, horns, bells, handrails and grabirons. And every once in a while, a kid will reach over the plastic shield we have around the edges, and "touch" the rolling stock-just to show he can. Consequently, newer stuff starts to look shabby after about six months of this.  However, my 20 year old Athearn blue box stuff (wire handrails, cast on grabs) still looks pretty presentable.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I seldom take any of my really old Mantua/Varney stuff over to run-mostly so as to not wear it out and to prolong its existence.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Like all other areas of life, each of us has his/her individual skills, tastes and priorities. Some of us yearn for the past, and some live only for tomorrow. So, whatever floats your boat, just do it. After all, a hobby is supposed to be relaxing and enjoyable (until the third coupler spring you are trying to install flies off into space!).     Jerry Garteiser 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, WK2SHR@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Your story is right on and, in my opinion, follows some of the over, over
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> detailing of model trains in recent years.. . . . . . . . . . .
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12334
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 11/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  The photos of the Ideal wrecking crane are really interesting.  I have  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
not seen many of these models  finished to such a high degree of skill  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and neatness, and It shows that this is yet another attractive and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
accurate ancient HO kit model that can be finished to be totally  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
accepted within the current standards of scale prototype model  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
railroading. This kit is so detailed, and so relatively accurate  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
compared to other Ideal cars (just take a look at the sheet of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
directions!) that I have often thought that whoever developed the kit  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
was probably "on a mission", and probably had little to do with  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
developing the rest of the line.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
It is a kit that just itches to be built,  and then used!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Respecting the Moderator's request to cease the DC vs. DCC thread, I  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
will mention that without  fuss I routinely operate many ancient  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
pieces of HO rolling stock on my pretty trouble-free all-DCC layout.   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Most of the locomotives are not converted to DCC, but some of the ones  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
that I like and use the most have been converted with decoders, w/wo  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
sound.  Some of the unconverted locomotives with the most inefficient  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
motors do not operate well on DCC, or even not at all, but in all  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
candor they also did not operate that well on DC.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
My earliest HO locomotive, documented to have been built in 1936 from  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
a MR 1935 plan, has been so converted, but with a replacement motor  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and driveline. The earlier 6V motor-and-drive have been bagged and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
tagged and placed in the box for posterity- my habit for all engines  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
so converted.  My Walthers Baltic will have DCC, but again in a way  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
that respects its history as a model.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
As usual, I will have several center tables (listed under Signature  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Press) at the popular Roseville (CA) International Railfair this  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
weekend .  I will have a fair number of c. 1940-50 vintage pieces of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
HO rolling stock in varying stages of construction or completion for  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
sale (still being gathered together) mostly various duplicate paper  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
sides, but also others- including kits . Stop by to say hello.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12335
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 11/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Deepest Thanks and Appreciation
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I second that senitment, Don.  Just returned from a lunch given by members of our two town's service clubs honoring not only Veterans from our clubs, but also some of those active men from the local armory who are being deployed.  Today is the day we take time to say "Thank You" to those who have made, or are makin a sacrifice so that we may all enjoy life, liberty and the pursuits of happiness.  But why just one day?  Think of them, try to thank a Vet in some way or fashion every day, whenever one can.  Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To the U. S. Marine Corps on their 234th Birthday, Tuesday, and to all 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Veterans as we celebrate their service to all of us today.  One who has 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> never hunted men nor been hunted by them will ever know the depth and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> affects of the experiences of the ones who have.  We owe to all of them 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> a debt that can never be satisfied.  We are who we are and we have what 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> we have because of all of the Peace Keepers in our history and the ones 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> who are serving now.  Give thanks to them and for them daily.  Without 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> them we could not be as we have been and are now...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> My deepest thanks and appreciation to every Peace Keeper, past, present 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and future.  My term Peace Keeper covers all Law Enforcement and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Military and all of the ones in their support systems...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Thanks to all of the members of this train group for being there as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Stay safe...  Be greater blessed...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> For God, Country and the Peace Keepers of Our Nation...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Don Staton, retired Peace Keeper and Chaplain to Peace Keepers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12336
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Wow. Thanks for the compliments on the wrecker. 
Actually, I'm a little embarrassed  about a couple of small inaccuracies 
that my new dgitial camera picked up in the extreme closeup views and which I 
didn't notice previously. I have several more of these cars in my 
collection with minor differences. It is a difficult vintage car to build 
correctly, and I've seen examples of these wreckers on eBay that look like 
someone gave up on them and kicked them into a corner in frustration. In any 
case I am including a few photos of some of my other work which I don't often 
get to show off. One is a Bowser Big Boy and the other two are of different 
Winton Alleghenies--one painted and the other not. I've never seen these locos 
developed to this extent, and I sweated bullets over all of them--and developed 
a few new swear words in the process.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I totally admire what manufacturers have accomplished with their products 
these days, but there is a certain character to a crafted, hand-built, vintage 
car or loco that cannot quite be matched with the modern plastic beauties. I 
think part of it is that you can see a little of the person who built it in the 
piece.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/11/2009 12:07:39 P.M. Pacific Standard 
Time, danspach@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The 
  photos of the Ideal wrecking crane are really interesting.  I have  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  not seen many of these models  finished to such a high degree of 
  skill  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and neatness, and It shows that this is yet another attractive 
  and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  accurate ancient HO kit model that can be finished to be 
  totally  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  accepted within the current standards of scale prototype 
  model  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  railroading. This kit is so detailed, and so relatively 
  accurate  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  compared to other Ideal cars (just take a look at the sheet 
  of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  directions!) that I have often thought that whoever developed the 
  kit  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  was probably "on a mission", and probably had little to do 
  with  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  developing the rest of the line.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It is a kit that just 
  itches to be built,  and then used!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Respecting the Moderator's 
  request to cease the DC vs. DCC thread, I  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  will mention that 
  without  fuss I routinely operate many ancient  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  pieces of HO 
  rolling stock on my pretty trouble-free all-DCC layout.   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Most 
  of the locomotives are not converted to DCC, but some of the ones  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  that I like and use the most have been converted with decoders, w/wo  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sound.  Some of the unconverted locomotives with the most 
  inefficient  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  motors do not operate well on DCC, or even not at all, 
  but in all  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  candor they also did not operate that well on 
  DC.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My earliest HO locomotive, documented to have been built in 1936 
  from  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  a MR 1935 plan, has been so converted, but with a replacement 
  motor  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and driveline. The earlier 6V motor-and-drive have been bagged 
  and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  tagged and placed in the box for posterity- my habit for all 
  engines  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  so converted.  My Walthers Baltic will have DCC, but 
  again in a way  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  that respects its history as a model.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  As 
  usual, I will have several center tables (listed under Signature  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Press) at the popular Roseville (CA) International Railfair this  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  weekend .  I will have a fair number of c. 1940-50 vintage pieces 
  of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  HO rolling stock in varying stages of construction or completion 
  for  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sale (still being gathered together) mostly various duplicate 
  paper  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sides, but also others- including kits . Stop by to say 
  hello.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny











                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny 
  S.  Anspach 
  MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sacramento







                                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------------------------------

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@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12337
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jerry:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"Some" reasonable detail in HO is very good and appropriate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
However, I am finding that a lot of the newer stuff is literally being
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
over-detailed to death! Some locos now have working door and handles,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and engineer foot steps. OK.....but, who really cares??? How much of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
this is really "necessary" and what purpose does all this eye wash 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
serve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12338
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 11/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: DETAILS ON HO TRAINS
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


  

 
Some of us are collectors; some are miniature model builders; some
are exact detail hounds; some are trying to build an as exact as
possible miniature world.  For some of us it is owning the trains;  for
some of us it is operating the trains;  for some of us it has to look
as absolutely perfect as possible.  I have been part of all of these
activities at one time or another.  I have even been a professional
model builder, painter and detailer.  Now I just love all kinds of
trains from toys to scale models.  I like for them to run well so I
concentrate upon mechanical excellence.  Someone mentioned the 4 foot
rule...  If I can't see it at 4 feet it does not matter.  I learned
that rule the hard way by almost ruining my vision doing all the close
highly detailed modeling that made no difference because to see it you
had to be very close to the model.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
When it became a business and too stressful it was no longer fun. 
Because of that and needing cash, I sold everything.... and started
over twice.  I kept the junk no body wanted and built and ran trains
just to have and run trains.  I moved from HO as my specialty to larger
scales, first S, then O...  then backyard trains that I can ride in. 
Now I am happy with what I can touch and see no matter the scale but it
was a long trip to get to this state of mind with my love of trains. 
Sometimes I just like to watch videos or listen to the sounds of steam
while I am working in my office.  I can rejoice with others in what
they like but I had to come to my place in the hobby and I finally
found it...  All of that may change yet again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks to all of you for being part of the group.  I enjoy all of the
exchanges of thought s and information.  Have fun with your trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
====================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
WK2SHR@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jerry:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"Some" reasonable detail in HO is very good and appropriate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
However, I am finding that a lot of the newer stuff is literally being
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
over-detailed to death! Some locos now have working door and handles,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and engineer foot steps. OK.....but, who really cares??? How much of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
this is really "necessary" and what purpose does all this eye wash 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
serve?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12339
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DETAILS ON HO TRAINS
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don S,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I don't think I ever read a 
message that totally covers all aspects model railroading and what you can 
enjoy. There is something for everybody and to each his/her own. Well 
said.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message -
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 6:48 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] DETAILS ON HO 
  TRAINS
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Some of us are collectors; some are miniature model builders; some are 
  exact detail hounds; some are trying to build an as exact as possible 
  miniature world.  For some of us it is owning the trains;  for some 
  of us it is operating the trains;  for some of us it has to look as 
  absolutely perfect as possible.  I have been part of all of these 
  activities at one time or another.  I have even been a professional model 
  builder, painter and detailer.  Now I just love all kinds of trains from 
  toys to scale models.  I like for them to run well so I concentrate upon 
  mechanical excellence.  Someone mentioned the 4 foot rule...  If I 
  can't see it at 4 feet it does not matter.  I learned that rule the hard 
  way by almost ruining my vision doing all the close highly detailed modeling 
  that made no difference because to see it you had to be very close to the 
  model.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  When it became a business and too stressful it was no longer 
  fun.  Because of that and needing cash, I sold everything.. .. and 
  started over twice.  I kept the junk no body wanted and built and ran 
  trains just to have and run trains.  I moved from HO as my specialty to 
  larger scales, first S, then O...  then backyard trains that I can ride 
  in.  Now I am happy with what I can touch and see no matter the scale but 
  it was a long trip to get to this state of mind with my love of trains.  
  Sometimes I just like to watch videos or listen to the sounds of steam while I 
  am working in my office.  I can rejoice with others in what they like but 
  I had to come to my place in the hobby and I finally found it...  All of 
  that may change yet again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks to all of you for being part of the 
  group.  I enjoy all of the exchanges of thought s and information.  
  Have fun with your trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Staton in 
  VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ====

                                                                                                                                                                                                  WK2SHR@... 
  wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jerry:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  "Some" reasonable detail in HO 
    is very good and appropriate.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  However, I am finding that a lot of the 
    newer stuff is literally being
                                                                                                                                                                                                  over-detailed to death! Some locos now 
    have working door and handles,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and engineer foot steps. OK.....but, who 
    really cares??? How much of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  this is really "necessary" and what purpose 
    does all this eye wash 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  serve?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12340
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 11/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DETAILS ON HO TRAINS
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am not fond of "working" details for two 
reasons:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  1, the working parts run up the cost of the 
model
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  2. working parts get played with, and if played 
with often enough get broken.  (I will usually consider them as 
"positionable" to fit a crew figure--  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 3:48 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] DETAILS ON HO 
  TRAINS
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Some 
  of us are collectors; some are miniature model builders; some are exact detail 
  hounds; some are trying to build an as exact as possible miniature 
  world.  For some of us it is owning the trains;  for some of us it 
  is operating the trains;  for some of us it has to look as absolutely 
  perfect as possible.  I have been part of all of these activities at one 
  time or another.  I have even been a professional model builder, painter 
  and detailer.  Now I just love all kinds of trains from toys to scale 
  models.  I like for them to run well so I concentrate upon mechanical 
  excellence.  Someone mentioned the 4 foot rule...  If I can't see it 
  at 4 feet it does not matter.  I learned that rule the hard way by almost 
  ruining my vision doing all the close highly detailed modeling that made no 
  difference because to see it you had to be very close to the model.  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  When it became a business and too stressful it was no longer fun.  
  Because of that and needing cash, I sold everything.... and started over 
  twice.  I kept the junk no body wanted and built and ran trains just to 
  have and run trains.  I moved from HO as my specialty to larger scales, 
  first S, then O...  then backyard trains that I can ride in.  Now I 
  am happy with what I can touch and see no matter the scale but it was a long 
  trip to get to this state of mind with my love of trains.  Sometimes I 
  just like to watch videos or listen to the sounds of steam while I am working 
  in my office.  I can rejoice with others in what they like but I had to 
  come to my place in the hobby and I finally found it...  All of that may 
  change yet again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks to all of you for being part of the 
  group.  I enjoy all of the exchanges of thought s and information.  
  Have fun with your trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Staton in 
  VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ====================================================

                                                                                                                                                                                                  WK2SHR@... 
  wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jerry:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  "Some" reasonable detail in HO 
    is very good and appropriate.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  However, I am finding that a lot of the 
    newer stuff is literally being
                                                                                                                                                                                                  over-detailed to death! Some locos now 
    have working door and handles,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and engineer foot steps. OK.....but, who 
    really cares??? How much of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  this is really "necessary" and what purpose 
    does all this eye wash 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  serve?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.60/2496 - Release 
  Date: 11/11/09 07:40:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12341
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 11/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: search
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Some 20 or more years ago I used a Lionel truss 
bridge as a double-track HO bridge on a module.  Shortly after I did mine, 
an article about the same sort of bridge appeared in MR, RMC, or ??  Anyone 
recall it--if so where and when? I'm working on the possibility of a conversion 
kit.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12342
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: search
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Glenn:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have 6 of those Lionel O gauge bridges on my HO layout to date.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Wanted some really heavy steel bridges that resembled those that once
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
crossed over the Monongehla River near Pittsburg, PA -- or the Calumet
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Bridges in Chicago area. (The Pittsburg bridges were torn down around '75 or
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
'76; Amtrak trains were the last to use them).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
No one made them in HO, so the Lionel bridges with a coat of flat black
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
paint did the trick. Most HO bridges are too "light" looking -- and generally
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
too small (too short). HO bridges, such as they are, do not convey the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
impression of "heavy" steel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Lionel made them in two styles: one with an arch on the top (I have 2),
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and a later version without the arch, but with a flat steel top. I have 4.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
They have been in use for many years, and so far, almost NONE of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
fellow modelers either here, or in FL (when I lived there), ever noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
that they were Lionel, or for that matter, that they might have been a
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
bit over sized. With the flat black paint and the double HO track -- they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
look pretty darn "correct" - and very impressive once an (HO) train is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
present (on the bridge). 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
It IS possible to run 2 HO trains thru these bridges in opposite directions --
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
at the same time (as long as there are no curves at the ends of the bridges).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Works.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12343
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 11/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: search
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 

Glenn:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have 6 of those Lionel O gauge 
  bridges on my HO layout to date.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wanted some really heavy steel bridges 
  that resembled those that once
                                                                                                                                                                                                  crossed over the Monongehla River near 
  Pittsburg, PA -- or the Calumet
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bridges in Chicago area. (The Pittsburg 
  bridges were torn down around '75 or
                                                                                                                                                                                                  '76; Amtrak trains were the last to 
  use them).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  No one made them in HO, so the Lionel bridges with a coat of 
  flat black
                                                                                                                                                                                                  paint did the trick. Most HO bridges are too "light" looking -- 
  and generally
                                                                                                                                                                                                  too small (too short). HO bridges, such as they are, do not 
  convey the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  impression of "heavy" steel.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Lionel made them in two 
  styles: one with an arch on the top (I have 2),
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and a later version without 
  the arch, but with a flat steel top. I have 4.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They have been in use 
  for many years, and so far, almost NONE of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                  fellow modelers either here, 
  or in FL (when I lived there), ever noticed
                                                                                                                                                                                                  that they were Lionel, or for 
  that matter, that they might have been a
                                                                                                                                                                                                  bit over sized. With the flat 
  black paint and the double HO track -- they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  look pretty darn "correct" - 
  and very impressive once an (HO) train is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  present (on the bridge). 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It IS possible to run 2 HO trains thru these bridges in opposite 
  directions --
                                                                                                                                                                                                  at the same time (as long as there are no curves at the ends 
  of the bridges).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Works.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.61/2497 - Release 
  Date: 11/11/09 19:41:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12344
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 11/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Fw: PFM Spud B
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a note from a good friend that is looking for replacement gears for a PFM Spud B.  Do any of you happen to know if the replacement gears are available anywhere.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Gregg Whitsett <gwhitsett@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: Gregg Whitsett <gwhitsett@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: PFM Spud B
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: "Kent Hurley" <nvrr49@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 10:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Kent,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Are you familiar with the PFM Tenshodo SPUD B trucks. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> This is a self-propelled truck that PFM sold in early
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 1980s.  There are magazine article referencing these in
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the 1980s.  I am not sure how long these were
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> produced.  They had a plastic housing but I never
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> looked in one.  I sold three that were what appeared to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> be new in the box.  My buyer received them and tested
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> them...not good.  Gears were cracked or broke in all of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the units,  they looked great on the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> outside.   These have been selling regularly on
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Ebay.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I need help in finding parts to fix these.  I know
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> that this product is a little new for your project list but
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> wondering if you ran across these.  These must not have
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> been high quality.  Since I do not have them anymore I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> have no idea even what the gears look
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  like.  I know the obvious thing to do is check the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> walthers catalog.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Thank You,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gregg Whitsett
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12345
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 11/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Fw: PFM Spud B
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I believe that replacement gears are available from NWSL.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If memory serves, I replaced the same gears on two of these Tenshodo  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
power trucks several years ago. They continue to run just fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The cracked gears result from using plastic that had not completely  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
cured resulting in the plastic shrinking over time. This is a chronic  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
quality control problem that first surfaced with Lindsay, then with  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Tenshodo, and most recently with Life Like (just before sale to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Walthers).  NWSL has made a good business replacing these gears  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(including the Lindsay gears), cutting the new gears  only from fully- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
cured engineering plastic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12346
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 11/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just looked again at the photo of the completed early Winton 2-6-6-6 provided by luvprr@... (name? (:-)).  Congratulations!  I have seen an inordinate number of these models over the years, until now every single one of them has been in various degrees of gross incompletion, however. Does the model run well?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sacramento




                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12347
						From: Garry Spear
						Date: 11/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Winton 2-6-6-6 Available
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I know of a Winton 2-6-6-6 that is available, for the right offer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm not sure of the condition or completeness.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Any suggestions as to the selling (or buying) price.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Garry Spear
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12348
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Both the Allenghenies run satisfactorily at least. 
I've not had curves broad enough to really put them to the test (though they 
have been on track to some extent), but there would be no reason for them to 
not run at least decently with some breaking in. Of course our 
DCC friends would never find them to be satisfactory, but it would be 
pretty cool to see either one in full operation. One thing they are not, and 
that is fragile. These puppies are soldered every which way from 
Sunday, and the rugged drive trains are coupled to O gauge motors that came 
with the kits. As you may know, Winton Brown's main interest was live steam, and 
he designed the HO guys with similar ruggedness. I have several of the Winton 
"Berkshires" (his broad interpretation of that locomotive), and the geared 
version runs great--even if it is actually OO gauge on HO track. I've often said 
that Winton must have thought everybody had a machine shop in the basement back 
in 1948 because you do have to have some real tools to build the Allengheny 
correctly--and tons of patience.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Doylestown, PA in beautiful Bucks County
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/12/2009 9:35:43 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
danspach@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just looked again at 
  the photo of the completed early Winton 2-6-6-6 provided by luvprr@... (name? (:-)). 
   Congratulations!  I have seen an inordinate number of these models 
  over the years, until now every single one of them has been in various degrees 
  of gross incompletion, however. Does the model run well? 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  




                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12350
						From: Russ Shiel
						Date: 11/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: mystery pass cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  H'lo All...group wisdom sought!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Included with a 4-unit brass FT set which I was looking for in a recent auction win were half-a-dozen fluted-side brass shorties which were incidental...they are well-used, but restorable. On inspection, the shells, at least, appear to be Tenshodo...the decayed diaphragms, Japanese couplers and roof vents are identical to those of my f/p Tenshodo GN shorties bought from Melbourne's Model Dockyard in the early '60's. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The underbody differs...that of my GN smooth-sided coaches is cast black plastic, of these, not-so-tidy wood shapes glued to a wooden floor. The machine screws holding the floor to the shell are in the same places as on the GN coaches, brass rather than ?stainless, and the trucks 3-piece ?stamped rather than the later cast Tenshodo trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I wondered if these might be early Tenshodo kit-built cars? i.e. imported into the US and assembled by the buyer? They appear to have been brush-painted, and the underfloor tanks, boxes etc, cut with a razor saw, leaving some ragged edges.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Apologies for the pics...my microscope camera is fine for copepod legs....less so with myopic eyeballs attempting to focus...(!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
In anticipation!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chrs! Russ
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      __________________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12351
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Question: See below
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  All:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Opinion needed:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
With the October announcement by Athearn that they are discontinuing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the production of Blue Box KITS (and subsequently, the availability of parts),
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
do you really, honestly believe that "kits" don't sell anymore? (This was their
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
claim and rationale for discontinuing the BB kit line).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12352
						From: Karl Peters
						Date: 11/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Lionel Bridge Conversion
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  The article appeared in MODEL RAILROADER, and was reprinted in their book "Model Railroad Bridges & Trestles", pages 64-66
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Title is "A Big Bridge for Your Double-Track Main", author was Dean Freytag.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hope this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12353
						From: grassball2003
						Date: 11/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: FS: Campbell Produce Warehouse Kit # 435
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi, I have a Campbell Scale Models Produce Warehouse #435 Kit for sale. $35 plus actual shipping cost to your zip code. Please email me off-line for a picture or with questions. Thanks. George
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12354
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 11/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Lionel Bridge Conversion
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks--you don't happen to know when it was in 
MR??  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:33 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Lionel Bridge 
  Conversion
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The article appeared in MODEL RAILROADER, and was reprinted in 
        their book "Model Railroad Bridges & Trestles", pages 64-66
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Title is "A Big Bridge for Your Double-Track Main", author was Dean 
        Freytag.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hope this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.62/2499 - Release 
  Date: 11/12/09 14:33:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12355
						From: Thomas Parsons
						Date: 11/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: FS: Campbell Produce Warehouse Kit # 435
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Would you end me a picture of the Kit?  Tom P.  parsons.9@...

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Thu, 11/12/09, grassball2003 <gabvball@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: grassball2003 <gabvball@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] FS: Campbell Produce Warehouse Kit # 435
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 4:05 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi, I have a Campbell Scale Models Produce Warehouse #435 Kit for sale. $35 plus actual shipping cost to your zip code. Please email me off-line for a picture or with questions. Thanks. George


                                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12356
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 11/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: mystery pass cars [3 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I do know the Tenshodo rib sides WERE offered as kits at least through the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
mid 1960's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Russ Shiel" <rshiel01@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 4:53 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] mystery pass cars [3 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
H'lo All...group wisdom sought!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Included with a 4-unit brass FT set which I was looking for in a recent 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
auction win were half-a-dozen fluted-side brass shorties which were 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
incidental...they are well-used, but restorable. On inspection, the shells, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
at least, appear to be Tenshodo...the decayed diaphragms, Japanese couplers 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and roof vents are identical to those of my f/p Tenshodo GN shorties bought 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
from Melbourne's Model Dockyard in the early '60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The underbody differs...that of my GN smooth-sided coaches is cast black 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
plastic, of these, not-so-tidy wood shapes glued to a wooden floor. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
machine screws holding the floor to the shell are in the same places as on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the GN coaches, brass rather than ?stainless, and the trucks 3-piece 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
?stamped rather than the later cast Tenshodo trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I wondered if these might be early Tenshodo kit-built cars? i.e. imported 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
into the US and assembled by the buyer? They appear to have been 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
brush-painted, and the underfloor tanks, boxes etc, cut with a razor saw, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
leaving some ragged edges.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Apologies for the pics...my microscope camera is fine for copepod 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
legs....less so with myopic eyeballs attempting to focus...(!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
In anticipation!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chrs! Russ
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      __________________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Yahoo! Groups Links 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12357
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 11/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Lionel Bridge Conversion
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Model Railroader, February 1986 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
<http://index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=I&MAG=MR&MO=2&YR=1986&output=3&sort=A> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
page 80
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Thanks--you don't happen to know when it was in MR??  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     *From:* Karl Peters <mailto:krlpeters@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     *To:* vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:33 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     *Subject:* [vintageHO] Lionel Bridge Conversion
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     The article appeared in MODEL RAILROADER, and was reprinted in
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     their book "Model Railroad Bridges & Trestles", pages 64-66
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Title is "A Big Bridge for Your Double-Track Main", author was
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Dean Freytag.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Hope this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12358
						From: orangetrainman
						Date: 11/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: need help  I.Ding these
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group i just won these cars on E-BAY but the seler did not know the manufactuer so I'M turning to you guys can someone here help me I.D who might have made these cars so i can get relpacment parts for them to restore them cosmeticly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
here's the link
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://tinyurl.com/y8vjtm6
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
[
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12359
						From: George
						Date: 11/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: SOLD: Campbell Produce Warehouse Kit
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12360
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 11/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Lionel Bridge Conversion
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  thanks--I have that.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 11:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Lionel Bridge Conversion
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Model Railroader, February 1986
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> <http://index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=I&MAG=MR&MO=2&YR=1986&output=3&sort=A>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> page 80
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Thanks--you don't happen to know when it was in MR??  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>     ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>     *From:* Karl Peters <mailto:krlpeters@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>     *To:* vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:33 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>     *Subject:* [vintageHO] Lionel Bridge Conversion
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>     The article appeared in MODEL RAILROADER, and was reprinted in
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>     their book "Model Railroad Bridges & Trestles", pages 64-66
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>     Title is "A Big Bridge for Your Double-Track Main", author was
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>     Dean Freytag.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>     Hope this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>     Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.62/2499 - Release Date: 11/12/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12361
						From: Earl Poulsen
						Date: 11/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Passenger cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I believe these are Tenshodo cars. I have some of these.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Earl Poulsen
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Vancouver, WA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
LAT 45 degrees, 40 minutes, 6 seconds X LONG Minus 122 degrees, 39 minutes and 46 seconds
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12362
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 11/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Both the [Winton] Alleghenies run satisfactorily ..... our DCC friends would never 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  find them to be satisfactory...

                                                                                                                                                                                                  H-mmm.  My own Winton Allegheny also runs like a fine switch watch and tracks equally well. As we speak,  it is in fact awaiting conversion to DCC operation. Whether or not I will do it with its current DC-91 motor (surprisingly low amperage draw), or with a replacement can motor is as yet undecided. The former is favored.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I hold no prejudice for or against either DC or DCC or their advocates or detractors-   especially because  such choices really have nothing whatsoever to do with the straight forward agenda of  appreciation for old, historic, or vintage HO equipment.  As a pretty contented  "DCC friend", however, after listening to a lot of the comments on the subject on this  good list, I feel I may be living in a different world!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sacramento




                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12363
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have no doubt there are thousands of contented DCC folks. Congratulations 
on being one them! Now, how about posting some clear photos of that special 
Winton Allegheny of yours? Did you build it yourself?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/13/2009 9:36:56 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
danspach@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Both the [Winton] Alleghenies run satisfactorily 
    ..... our DCC friends would never  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  find them to be 
  satisfactory...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  H-mmm.  My own Winton Allegheny also runs like a fine switch watch 
  and tracks equally well. As we speak,  it is in fact awaiting conversion 
  to DCC operation. Whether or not I will do it with its current DC-91 motor 
  (surprisingly low amperage draw), or with a replacement can motor is as yet 
  undecided. The former is favored.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I hold no prejudice for or against either DC or DCC or their advocates or 
  detractors-   especially because  such choices really have nothing 
  whatsoever to do with the straight forward agenda of  appreciation for 
  old, historic, or vintage HO equipment.  As a pretty contented  "DCC 
  friend", however, after listening to a lot of the comments on the subject on 
  this  good list, I feel I may be living in a different world!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  




                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12364
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 11/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: need help  I.Ding these
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  The trucks on the NP and Burlington unit are familier, maybe someone can point out who they came from.  The beer car looks like it might be a paper side kit? For parts, try Labelle, who just bought Red Ball, and Bitter Creek.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Kansas City, MO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "orangetrainman" <orangetrainman33@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Group i just won these cars on E-BAY but the seler did not know the manufactuer so I'M turning to you guys can someone here help me I.D who might have made these cars so i can get relpacment parts for them to restore them cosmeticly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> here's the link
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://tinyurl.com/y8vjtm6
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> [
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12365
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 11/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: need help  I.Ding these
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  The beer car is a Red Ball.  I haven't had the opportunity to trace down the other two, although I believe they're both wooden cars, as it hasn't been said that any are partially metal.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12366
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 11/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Lionel Bridge Conversion
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If anyone is interested in building one--I have a 
spare Lionel bridge that I'll swap for the flat-top version #12772.  
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:33 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Lionel Bridge 
  Conversion
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The article appeared in MODEL RAILROADER, and was reprinted in 
        their book "Model Railroad Bridges & Trestles", pages 64-66
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Title is "A Big Bridge for Your Double-Track Main", author was Dean 
        Freytag.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hope this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Karl Peters
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.62/2499 - Release 
  Date: 11/12/09 14:33:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12367
						From: orangetrainman
						Date: 11/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: HELP  TO IDENTIFY THESE CARS
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  GROUP hi I Ajust bought some cars off ebay for restoration can anyone help me ID the manufacture please i will post them under my name AS George Freys pictures, i want to get restoration parts for them but do not know the manufactuer any help will be apriciated
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
George Frey
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12368
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 11/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Winton 2-6-6-6. Was: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art Waite writes-

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ....how about posting some clear photos of that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  special Winton Allegheny of yours? 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Several photos and other information are already residing in Files under Winton. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Did you build it yourself?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The locomotive was built c. 1957-8 by Frank Weiss of Menlo Park, CA most probably with the colleagial advice of Gerald ("Jerry") White of Redwood City (Jerry was the ranking custom locomotive builder of the day, and, incidentally, the brains behind the development of the NMRA RP-25 wheel tread standard). Frank was no slouch, however, having successfully already built a number of other champion class locomotive models. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Although I do not know it for certain, I also suspect that the locomotive was built in cooperation of Winton Brown- who was also a close colleague of Jerry White (who just passed away last year at about age 97). A trait that both skilled model builders shared was that they were also enthusiastic active operators, and all their locomotives had to operate as well, and as reliably as they looked. Both were active members of the West Bay Model Railroad Club in Menlo Park, where the 70" radius of the main tracks allowed some pretty spectacular operations.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  This Winton 2-6-6-6 absolutely wowed the members of  the Club when it was first placed on the track, and there ensued a famous event- still talked about- when the locomotive hauled around the Club layout a train of 100 cars- pretty spectacular when one considers that the average car at the time rolled about as well as a stone sled in deep sand.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My contribution to the model was that Frank Weiss asked me to weather it, and over a weekend at home I did so- with oils. I did this in c. 1959-60.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  When Ralph Troxel marketed the Winton Allegheny engine under his MaRa name, the photo that accompanied his ads in MR was of this same model locomotive- weathered- and it was so identified.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I moved from the state in 1964, and after returning to the state later, it was to a different area- and I lost all track. That Frank, and other valued modeling colleagues (his and mine) had died in the interim did not help. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  By serendipity alone (a whole different story), the locomotive out of the blue came very suddenly into my personal possession a number of years ago, its paint untouched  since I had last seen it over 40 years previously.  When it was taken out of its box and placed on a test track (on a dining room table) by the last of two interval owners , it moved instantly, slowly, silently, imperceptibly, and as carefully as I had once remembered it.  And that is how it remains today, and as it is in the Files  photographs.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The photos show it heading up a special train of 131 cars, about 2/3 vintage  (every single freight car in the photo is part of a single train of cars), which it pulled without hitch or incident at times over a period of 2 months on my own fully-DCC layout (otherwise pretty bare of ballast  at the time!). 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Glenn Joesten on this list was also a witness to a good deal of this locomotive's early life, I believe, and he may be able to add more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Also in Files is a photo of an unfinished earlier Winton 2-6-6-6 , one of several owned by a  colleague.  There are very few parts shared by the two sequential models, the tender wrapper probably being one exception.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sacramento




                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12369
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6. Was: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny M Anspach MD writes-
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                          ....This Winton 2-6-6-6 
absolutely wowed the members of the club . . .
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for the very interesting and informative 
account, and I--as a relatively late-comer to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Winton scene (compared to yourself)--will add your piece to the trivia I 
have collected about the Winton Co. ! I'll bet those guys had fun tinkering and 
fine tuning that loco. Makes my point (more or less) about how a modeler of the 
times had to have some tools and skills to get those puppies to work even 
satisfactorily. I have often wondered, consequently, how realistically Winton 
thought his product would be of practical use to the modeling public. . . 
. I might add that my two Wintons also run "like a 'switch' (Swiss) 
watch with low current draw" --but on the workbench in my case. On track I 
do not have the luxury of working out the kinks on broad curves but would love 
to be able to do so. I have no doubt that some such scenario would enable them 
to work at the level of performance that they were ideally intended to perform. 
I don't know, Denny, but I think I would not want to 
even consider putting DCC into such a special and historical piece of model 
equipment. But then we all have our preferences. Similarly, I know there are 
folks who think vintage stuff should not be overly protected or shelved and 
shoud be out there running for the public to enjoy, but my example of a Penn 
Line Crusader would not have been damaged if the person from whom I bought it 
had simply avoided over-handling it. But that subject is subjective and has 
already been discussed in the past in this group. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      In any case, it would be a privilege to own such a 
special piece from the past. . . .Hi ho, Silver, away! The Lone Winton rides 
again!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/14/2009 8:37:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
danspach@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art Waite writes- 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ....how about posting some clear photos of 
    that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  special Winton Allegheny of yours? 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Several photos and other information are already residing in Files under 
  Winton. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Did you build it yourself?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The locomotive was built c. 1957-8 by Frank Weiss of Menlo 
  Park, CA most probably with the colleagial advice of Gerald ("Jerry") White of 
  Redwood City (Jerry was the ranking custom locomotive builder of the day, and, 
  incidentally, the brains behind the development of the NMRA RP-25 wheel tread 
  standard). Frank was no slouch, however, having successfully already built a 
  number of other champion class locomotive models. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Although I do not know it for certain, I also suspect 
  that the locomotive was built in cooperation of Winton Brown- who was also a 
  close colleague of Jerry White (who just passed away last year at about age 
  97). A trait that both skilled model builders shared was that they were also 
  enthusiastic active operators, and all their locomotives had to operate as 
  well, and as reliably as they looked. Both were active members of the West Bay 
  Model Railroad Club in Menlo Park, where the 70" radius of the main tracks 
  allowed some pretty spectacular operations.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  This Winton 2-6-6-6 absolutely wowed the members of 
   the Club when it was first placed on the track, and there ensued a 
  famous event- still talked about- when the locomotive hauled around the Club 
  layout a train of 100 cars- pretty spectacular when one considers that the 
  average car at the time rolled about as well as a stone sled in deep sand. 
   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  My contribution to the model was that Frank Weiss asked 
  me to weather it, and over a weekend at home I did so- with oils. I did this 
  in c. 1959-60.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  When Ralph Troxel marketed the Winton Allegheny engine 
  under his MaRa name, the photo that accompanied his ads in MR was of this same 
  model locomotive- weathered- and it was so identified.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I moved from 
  the state in 1964, and after returning to the state later, it was to a 
  different area- and I lost all track. That Frank, and other valued modelin g 
  colleagues (his and mine) had died in the interim did not 
  help. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  By 
  serendipity alone (a whole different story), the locomotive out of the blue 
  came very suddenly into my personal possession a number of years ago, its 
  paint untouched  since I had last seen it over 40 years previously. 
   When it was taken out of its box and placed on a test track (on a 
  dining room table) by the last of two interval owners , it moved 
  instantly, slowly, silently, imperceptibly, and as carefully as I had once 
  remembered it.  And that is how it remains today, and as it is in the 
  Files  photographs.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The photos 
  show it heading up a special train of 131 cars, about 2/3 vintage  (every 
  single freight car in the photo is part of a single train of cars), which it 
  pulled without hitch or incident at times over a period of 2 months on my own 
  fully-DCC layout (otherwise pretty bare of ballast  at the 
  time!). 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Glenn 
  Joesten on this list was also a witness to a good deal of this locomotive's 
  early life, I believe, and he may be able to add more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Also in 
  Files is a photo of an unfinished earlier Winton 2-6-6-6 , one of several 
  owned by a  colleague.  There are very few parts shared by the two 
  sequential models, the tender wrapper probably being one 
  exception.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  




                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12370
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: new Athearn Book
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I just 
wanted to let anyone know that is interested that a new book about Athearn HO 
has been released. Entitled the Standard Guide to Athearn Model 
Trains   and was written by Mr.Ed Urmston and another person ( I must 
check back for his name ). This book covers the time period from the beginning 
of Athearn up to 1995. A second book  Athearn Standard Guide II  is 
planned which will cover Athearn from 1995 up to the present.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I'm not sure where else the book can 
be purchased but I know you can go to the HOseeker web site, click on 
his AUCTION you will find the first book for sale for $ 14.00.  An 
added bonus is they will be signed by Mr. Urmston.  Going fast
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12371
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 11/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: new Athearn Book
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It's by Tim Blaisdell & Ed Urmston 
Sr.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  But I don't think it is new.  My copy is 
copyright 1998.  Published by Krause Publications.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The $14 price looks good.  Mine is printed 
$24.95 and I probably paid about $20 for it in a local hobby shop years 
ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:09 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] new Athearn 
  Book
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                          I just 
  wanted to let anyone know that is interested that a new book about Athearn HO 
  has been released. Entitled the Standard Guide to Athearn Model 
  Trains   and was written by Mr.Ed Urmston and another person ( I 
  must check back for his name ). This book covers the time period from the 
  beginning of Athearn up to 1995. A second book  Athearn Standard Guide 
  II  is planned which will cover Athearn from 1995 up to the 
  present.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     I'm not sure where else the book can 
  be purchased but I know you can go to the HOseeker web site, click on 
  his AUCTION you will find the first book for sale for $ 14.00.  An 
  added bonus is they will be signed by Mr. Urmston.  Going 
  fast
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12372
						From: Walter Bayer
						Date: 11/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6. Was: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  



 


 
 
 
 
 

 

 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12373
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 11/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6. Was: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art Waite opines-

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think I would not want to even consider putting DCC into such a special and historical piece of model equipment. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Why not?  One of the great values of these locomotives to begin with was that they were not intended to be shelf queens, and the fact that they (and other selected early models) can still hold their own in the company of expected contemporary scale accuracy, and operations does makes them doubly pleasurable to both own and operate. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  DCC conversion of most eligible open frame motors is transparently pretty simple, and easily reversible: 1) isolating the motor frame from the brushes- usually by a simple turn of a screw and unsoldering of one wire on Pittmans; insertion of a single insulated washer on V-2 motors. 2) Interposition of a DCC decoder between the motor and the rail pickups- a matter of very straight-forward wiring. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just wiring- not a big deal.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Locomotives will deteriorate on the shelf and on the layout, and neither situation will ever ever make them immune to careless owners or unthinking handlers or operators.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Walter Bayer inquires about the Winton 2-6-6-6 photo in Files:

                                                                                                                                                                                                   [what does] "(every single freight car in the photo is part of a single train of cars)", mean?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Every single freight car in the photo is a part of a single unbroken train of cars being hauled behind the Allegheny. In the minutes ahead all of those cars will be passing (slowly) in front of the camera.  Note the Red Ball Sonoma Wine reefer (silver sides, red and green lettering) about four or five cars behind the tender.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sacramento




                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12374
						From: Dick
						Date: 11/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Stripping old paint?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a couple of basket-case Mantua engines: an early General and a Belle of the 80s.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Both have crummy peeling paint. What method or cleaner would you recommend to safely remove the paint from these old engines? I am concerned that the castings may be brittle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The Belle is missing its pilot. Does anyone have a suggestion for a suitable replacement?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dick Moessner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12375
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 11/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Vintage HO: Recent marketplace experience.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  For the past two days I participated in the Annual International  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Railfair in Roseville , one of the longest running and most popular of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
California model railroad shows and sales markets. Lots of visitors.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Few buyers, except for inexpensive "commodity" items.  Here is what I  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
experienced and observed relative to successful selling prices of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
antique HO rolling stock, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
1) Varney Super Mikado (V2), painted, presentable and a very smooth  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"operator" : $150. One person inquired about it in two days, and he  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
bought it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
2) John English 2-8-2, new, very clean with shiny brass and bright  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Zamac. Tender trucks missing. NOB:  sold- $25.00.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
3) Walthers cast metal hopper car OB. Perfect:  unsold at @$15.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
4) Walthers  dining car body, metal sides (no rivets): No interest at  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
any price.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
5) Walthers dining car kit: ditto. No interest or offers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
6) Lot of 16 various Ideal, Bathgate, Lehigh, Tenshodo and ??  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
completed, but inexpertly-built freight car bodies c. trucks (no  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
couplers or paint). No takers, even at $10 for the lot. Donated to a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
UP engineer in Reno.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
7) Lot of 7 Varney paper-sides freight cars.- all inexpertly built-  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
sold at $5.00/lot.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
8) 13 pristine/near pristine mostly-Athearn metal, one Menzies, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
one Varney metal completed, painted box/reefer cars listed at @12,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
then $10, and finally $5 brought  a lot of looks, but not a single  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
inquiry as to purchase.   This is the second year go around for them.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The next move is a charitable donation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
9) An incomplete but otherwise absolutely spectacularly well  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
constructed unpainted Ambroid Unicel boxcar in OB was untouched at  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
$3.00. Given away.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
10)  Comet and Lehigh kits: 2/5 sold for @$3.00.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
11) Ulrich cast metal gondola and hopper car kits @$5.00. All sold at  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
listed price.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
There were others (amateur) there who also were knowledgeably  selling  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
or were in the market for older, and earlier HO models- and they all  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
sang the same song: the current market was so narrow as to be  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
invisible, and the returns so low as to not be rewarding enough to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
continue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Kit models, once started, or inexpertly finished simply are  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
unwanted, and it was common for me to hear from others how often they  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
closed their eyes and eventually disposed of them directly into  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
dumpsters  (personally, I used to gather some of these as "parts- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
donors" when I once devoted time to doing a lot of restoration. I do  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
not do that anymore, except in special circumstances).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The Roseville show has traditionally always been a good market for  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
brass locomotives (attracting buyers in the past all the way from  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Switzerland). How times have changed: brass locomotives also did not  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
sell- at all- unless *very* heavily (!) discounted, or met the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
specific wants of a specific buyer that simply had to have it ( and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
had the wherewithal).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12376
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6. Was: Ideal Wrecking car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      You speak in relative terms of course, and I'd just 
as soon keep mine as "shelf queens" for the present. Like it or not, not 
handling items over a span of time does work in favor of their longevity. And, 
with that observation, I leave the field of discussion on this matter. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Your just--posted observations concerning sales/no 
sales of model equipment is illuminating. I'm afraid that it indicates a trend 
that's going to take a while to cycle back to more happy times with models of 
all kinds. However, I've found it interesting that there are people out there 
yet with discretionary(?) income who find the same items on Bay 
to be desireable that I do and are still willing to go to great financial 
lengths to outbid me. For some, apparently, there is no recession. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/16/2009 9:49:11 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
danspach@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art Waite opines-
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think I would not want to even consider 
    putting DCC into such a special and historical piece of 
    model equipment. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Why not?  One of the great values of these locomotives to begin with 
  was that they were not intended to be shelf queens, and the fact that they 
  (and other selected early models) can still hold their own in the company of 
  expected contemporary scale accuracy, and operations does makes them doubly 
  pleasurable to both own and operate. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  DCC conversion of most eligible open frame motors is transparently pretty 
  simple, and easily reversible: 1) isolating the motor frame from the brushes- 
  usually by a simple turn of a screw and unsoldering of one wire on Pittmans; 
  insertion of a single insulated washer on V-2 motors. 2) Interposition of a 
  DCC decoder between the motor and the rail pickups- a matter of very 
  straight-forward wiring. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just wiring- not a big deal.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Locomotives will deteriorate on the shelf and on the layout, and neither 
  situation will ever ever make them immune to careless owners or unthinking 
  handlers or operators.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Walter Bayer inquires about the Winton 2-6-6-6 photo in 
  Files:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   [what does] "(every single freight car in the 
    photo is part of a single train of cars)", mean?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Every single freight car in the photo is a part of a single unbroken 
  train of cars being hauled behind the Allegheny. In the minutes ahead all of 
  those cars will be passing (slowly) in front of the camera.  Note the Red 
  Ball Sonoma Wine reefer (silver sides, red and green lettering) about four or 
  five cars behind the tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  




                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12377
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 11/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Vintage HO: Recent marketplace experience.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  So would you say that the lack of interest was caused by the current recession?  Or are people only interested in the latest newest stuff? Was the lack of interest in the old products that needed attention an indication of a lack of interest in the art of building and repairing the models?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Was your experience at only the table you were at, or a result of conversations with other sellers as well?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Generally speaking what did the average buyer purchase? What were people looking for that they did not find?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Mon, 11/16/09, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage HO: Recent marketplace experience.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: "Vintage HO" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 9:57 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  For the past two days I participated in the Annual International  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Railfair in Roseville , one of the longest running and most popular of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  California model railroad shows and sales markets. Lots of visitors.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Few buyers, except for inexpensive "commodity" items.  Here is what I  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  experienced and observed relative to successful selling prices of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  antique HO rolling stock, etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  1) Varney Super Mikado (V2), painted, presentable and a very smooth  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  "operator" : $150. One person inquired about it in two days, and he  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  bought it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  2) John English 2-8-2, new, very clean with shiny brass and bright  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Zamac. Tender trucks missing. NOB:  sold- $25.00.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  3) Walthers cast metal hopper car OB. Perfect:  unsold at @$15.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  4) Walthers  dining car body, metal sides (no rivets): No interest at  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  any price.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  5) Walthers dining car kit: ditto. No
 interest or offers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  6) Lot of 16 various Ideal, Bathgate, Lehigh, Tenshodo and ??  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  completed, but inexpertly-built freight car bodies c. trucks (no  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  couplers or paint). No takers, even at $10 for the lot. Donated to a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  UP engineer in Reno.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  7) Lot of 7 Varney paper-sides freight cars.- all inexpertly built-  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sold at $5.00/lot.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  8) 13 pristine/near pristine mostly-Athearn metal, one Menzies, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  one Varney metal completed, painted box/reefer cars listed at @12,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  then $10, and finally $5 brought  a lot of looks, but not a single  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  inquiry as to purchase.   This is the second year go around for them.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The next move is a charitable donation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  9) An incomplete but otherwise absolutely spectacularly well  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  constructed unpainted Ambroid Unicel boxcar in OB was untouched at  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  $3.00. Given away.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  10)  Comet and Lehigh kits: 2/5 sold for
 @$3.00.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  11) Ulrich cast metal gondola and hopper car kits @$5.00. All sold at  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  listed price.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  There were others (amateur) there who also were knowledgeably  selling  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  or were in the market for older, and earlier HO models- and they all  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sang the same song: the current market was so narrow as to be  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  invisible, and the returns so low as to not be rewarding enough to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  continue.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Kit models, once started, or inexpertly finished simply are  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  unwanted, and it was common for me to hear from others how often they  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  closed their eyes and eventually disposed of them directly into  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  dumpsters  (personally, I used to gather some of these as "parts- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  donors" when I once devoted time to doing a lot of restoration. I do  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  not do that anymore, except in special circumstances).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The Roseville show has traditionally always been a good market for 
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  brass locomotives (attracting buyers in the past all the way from  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Switzerland). How times have changed: brass locomotives also did not  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  sell- at all- unless *very* heavily (!) discounted, or met the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  specific wants of a specific buyer that simply had to have it ( and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  had the wherewithal).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny










                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sacramento







                                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12378
						From: John H
						Date: 11/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Stripping old paint?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Dick" <rb_train@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have a couple of basket-case Mantua engines: an early General and a Belle of the 80s.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Both have crummy peeling paint. What method or cleaner would you recommend to safely remove the paint from these old engines? I am concerned that the castings may be brittle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The Belle is missing its pilot. Does anyone have a suggestion for a suitable replacement?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dick Moessner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I dunno on the paint stripping but for the pilot, contact Dan at yardbirdtrains.com He just about any Mantua parts for at least the post war stuff. His stock amazes me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Check on his moving message. YThe last i saw he expects to reopen Wednesday, Nov, 16th.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12379
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 11/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Stripping old paint?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  With the die-cast and brass locos, cheap lacquer thinner will usually get it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
clean down to bare metal.  If the zamak parts are cracking I flow Krazy Glue 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
into the cracks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If you can't find a Mantua part for the Belle pilot--check Precision Scale's 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
catalog.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "John H" <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 1:20 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Stripping old paint?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Dick" <rb_train@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> I have a couple of basket-case Mantua engines: an early General and a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Belle of the 80s.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Both have crummy peeling paint. What method or cleaner would you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> recommend to safely remove the paint from these old engines? I am 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> concerned that the castings may be brittle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> The Belle is missing its pilot. Does anyone have a suggestion for a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> suitable replacement?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Dick Moessner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I dunno on the paint stripping but for the pilot, contact Dan at 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> yardbirdtrains.com He just about any Mantua parts for at least the post 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> war stuff. His stock amazes me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Check on his moving message. YThe last i saw he expects to reopen 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Wednesday, Nov, 16th.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12380
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 11/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Stripping old paint?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
if your wife is in town shopping you may borrow a pot from the kitchen, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
fill it with detergent and cook the loco in it... most paints will flake 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
off. More friendly to environment, pets and your nose than paint strippers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12381
						From: nvrr49
						Date: 11/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: My recent experiences a shows Re: Vintage HO: Recent marketplace exp
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I see very little vintage product at shows here in the middle of the country.  Kits, do not sell like they did 20 years ago.  Expertly assembled kits will sell, but you have to wait for the right person.  Many people are in to operation, and, as such, want to get the railraod up and running fast.  Prebuilt is a much faster way to get up and running.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
As a former MR shop owner, I would hate to see me coming in to my shop.  I am going to buy parts, pieces, paint, etc, and I would love to see the guy coming in to build an operating layout.  Much bigger $ involved in his operation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
There will always be kit builders, kitbashers and scratch-builders, but the numbers will continue to dwindle for as long as I can see.  Just my opinion and observations.  With this and a couple bucks you can get a cup of coffee.  Personally, I'd rather have beer, but that is another story.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
FYI, I am 54, but did not seriously start modeling until 1984.  Most of the kits I buy and build were manufactured before I started modeling.  I will buy about any old kit and give it a try. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Kent in KC
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Check out my blog: nvrr49.blogspot.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> So would you say that the lack of interest was caused by the current recession?  Or are people only interested in the latest newest stuff? Was the lack of interest in the old products that needed attention an indication of a lack of interest in the art of building and repairing the models?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Was your experience at only the table you were at, or a result of conversations with other sellers as well?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Generally speaking what did the average buyer purchase? What were people looking for that they did not find?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- On Mon, 11/16/09, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage HO: Recent marketplace experience.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: "Vintage HO" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 9:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> For the past two days I participated in the Annual International  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Railfair in Roseville , one of the longest running and most popular of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> California model railroad shows and sales markets. Lots of visitors.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Few buyers, except for inexpensive "commodity" items.  Here is what I  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> experienced and observed relative to successful selling prices of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> antique HO rolling stock, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 1) Varney Super Mikado (V2), painted, presentable and a very smooth  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> "operator" : $150. One person inquired about it in two days, and he  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> bought it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 2) John English 2-8-2, new, very clean with shiny brass and bright  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Zamac. Tender trucks missing. NOB:  sold- $25.00.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 3) Walthers cast metal hopper car OB. Perfect:  unsold at @$15.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 4) Walthers  dining car body, metal sides (no rivets): No interest at  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> any price.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 5) Walthers dining car kit: ditto. No interest or offers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 6) Lot of 16 various Ideal, Bathgate, Lehigh, Tenshodo and ??  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> completed, but inexpertly-built freight car bodies c. trucks (no  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> couplers or paint). No takers, even at $10 for the lot. Donated to a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> UP engineer in Reno.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 7) Lot of 7 Varney paper-sides freight cars.- all inexpertly built-  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> sold at $5.00/lot.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 8) 13 pristine/near pristine mostly-Athearn metal, one Menzies, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> one Varney metal completed, painted box/reefer cars listed at @12,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> then $10, and finally $5 brought  a lot of looks, but not a single  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> inquiry as to purchase.   This is the second year go around for them.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The next move is a charitable donation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 9) An incomplete but otherwise absolutely spectacularly well  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> constructed unpainted Ambroid Unicel boxcar in OB was untouched at  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> $3.00. Given away.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 10)  Comet and Lehigh kits: 2/5 sold for @$3.00.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 11) Ulrich cast metal gondola and hopper car kits @$5.00. All sold at  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> listed price.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> There were others (amateur) there who also were knowledgeably  selling  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> or were in the market for older, and earlier HO models- and they all  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> sang the same song: the current market was so narrow as to be  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> invisible, and the returns so low as to not be rewarding enough to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> continue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Kit models, once started, or inexpertly finished simply are  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> unwanted, and it was common for me to hear from others how often they  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> closed their eyes and eventually disposed of them directly into  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> dumpsters  (personally, I used to gather some of these as "parts- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> donors" when I once devoted time to doing a lot of restoration. I do  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> not do that anymore, except in special circumstances).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The Roseville show has traditionally always been a good market for  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> brass locomotives (attracting buyers in the past all the way from  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Switzerland). How times have changed: brass locomotives also did not  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> sell- at all- unless *very* heavily (!) discounted, or met the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> specific wants of a specific buyer that simply had to have it ( and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> had the wherewithal).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12382
						From: Mary Long
						Date: 11/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Vintage HO: Recent marketplace experience.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Denny , Sorry to hear about the dismal results at Roseville . Always was fun to look , talk , buy and sell , I guess that's all passed by now . I didn't get there this year because of health issues , just as well I guess . Henry H.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12383
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Stripping old paint?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've always had great results from the old-style Easy-Off oven  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
cleaner. The lye base takes even the toughest old paints off the model  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
in a very few minutes, sometimes with a second run to finish. It  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
neutralizes with running water.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The more fully stocked hobbyshops also have some more conventional  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
paint removers and the autoshop has a soap-based parts cleaner from  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Castrol that is very highly regarded by the modelers. I think that is  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
a gallon of Superclean for about $6.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
There is that fellow that sells original and repro parts for most of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the older HO steamers. You might like a Varney or similar Old Time  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
pilot for your model.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Unfortunately the name escapes me......... Let's see if I put a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
suitable key-work in my bookmark...........
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
YES........
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.yardbirdtrains.com/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
might this Mantua part work ???
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://yardbirdtrains.com/images/Mvpilotrepl.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
his P1202 part.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Here is a link to the original Belle kit parts diagrams.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.yardbirdtrains.com/SpecsMBelle2.htm
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
It looks like a close match.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   On Nov 16, 2009, at 11:56 AM, Dick wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have a couple of basket-case Mantua engines: an early General and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> a Belle of the 80s.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Both have crummy peeling paint. What method or cleaner would you  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> recommend to safely remove the paint from these old engines? I am  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> concerned that the castings may be brittle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The Belle is missing its pilot. Does anyone have a suggestion for a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> suitable replacement?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dick Moessner 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12384
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Vintage HO: Recent marketplace experience.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  On Nov 16, 2009, at 7:56 PM, Mary Long wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Denny , Sorry to hear about the dismal results at Roseville . Always  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> was fun to look , talk , buy and sell , I guess that's all passed by  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> now . I didn't get there this year because of health issues , just  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> as well I guess . Henry H.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Perhaps it was just a bad combination of outside factors.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
One thing that just jumped out at me was that those old Walthers kits  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
can be easily updated with the addition of the 3d-rivet decals that  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
recently became available.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.archertransfers.com/catSurfaceDetails.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've got a number of them on order for projects and would like to use  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
them on a first run, no-rivet Walthers Doodlebug I found that needs  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
loving restoration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
A pity we didn't have this in the Paul Moore kit era.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12385
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 11/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Rivets
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


  
  

 
Mike ,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
One thing that just jumped out at me was that those old Walthers kits 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
can be easily updated with the addition of the 3d-rivet decals that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
recently became available.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://www.archertr ansfers.com/ catSurfaceDetail s.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've got a number of them on order for projects and would like to use 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
them on a first run, no-rivet Walthers Doodlebug I found that needs 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
loving restoration.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Have also bought five different sets of those for evaluation. So far, I
have applied them to a steam loco cab that had a new wall fitted -
found that the smaller size rivets are, while correct to scale , too
small to match the ones already present on the remainder of the shell.
Will try the larger size next. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
What immidiately came to my mind when learning about this product were
the Milwaukee boxcabs by Ed Suydam. They were great models for their
day, and still run ok with a little tweaking. I never understood why Ed
left off the rivet details, he had rivets on the Great Northern motors
and other models --- now its possible to correct this omission.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Have attached pictures of Shop Switcher with Rivets, before and after
paint... this is a modified MDC SP 0-6-0 Switcher I bought at eBay half
a year ago, conversion was already done but appaerance suffered from
the large open frame motor sticking out of the cab! Converted it to a
can motor (actually I used a complete last run chassis ) and built a
cab wall from styrene, according to prototype pictures. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12386
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Rivets [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
That's a very nice model !!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   On Nov 17, 2009, at 2:56 AM, Gerold Eckl wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> [Attachment(s) from Gerold Eckl included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Have attached pictures of Shop Switcher with Rivets, before and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> after paint... this is a modified MDC SP 0-6-0 Switcher I bought at  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> eBay half a year ago, conversion was already done but appaerance  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> suffered from the large open frame motor sticking out of the cab!  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Converted it to a can motor (actually I used a complete last run  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> chassis ) and built a cab wall from styrene, according to prototype  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12387
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 11/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: ladder strip
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have just learned that Bowser has discontinued ##226 12" ladder stock ( 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and all other lenghts) - any idea where to get substitutes?  I found 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
this type of ladder strip quite useful for engine steps - the "scale" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
ladders sold by others are much to fragile for a model that is handled 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
regularly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12388
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: ladder strip
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I believe Dan Bush at 
Yardbird Trains sells that ladder.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 1:46 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] ladder strip
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have just learned that Bowser has discontinued ##226 12" ladder stock ( 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and all other lenghts) - any idea where to get substitutes? I found 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  this type of ladder strip quite useful for engine steps - the "scale" 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ladders sold by others are much to fragile for a model that is handled 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  regularly.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12389
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: ladder strip
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      How long a piece do you need?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/17/2009 11:01:09 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
corv8@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have 
  just learned that Bowser has discontinued ##226 12" ladder stock ( 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and all 
  other lenghts) - any idea where to get substitutes?  I found 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  this 
  type of ladder strip quite useful for engine steps - the "scale" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ladders 
  sold by others are much to fragile for a model that is handled 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  regularly.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold



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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12390
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 11/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: ladder strip
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  luvprr@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     How long a piece do you need?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Art Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I was about to order five pieces of 12" lenght ... however, I would be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
happy to have a few inches just now to finish a project . If you have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
something you may part with please let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and in reply to Jims post, jes, I found Dan Bush has listed a 5" ladder 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
strip. Will give it a try - hope its the same "heavy" style as the one 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Bowser sold.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12391
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: ladder strip
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I buy all my ladder from Dan. I 
think you'll find it heavy like you want.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 2:36 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ladder 
  strip
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  luvprr@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > How long a piece do you need?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Art 
  Waite
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Art,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I was about to order five pieces of 12" lenght 
  ... however, I would be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  happy to have a few inches just now to finish a 
  project . If you have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  something you may part with please let me 
  know.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  and in reply to Jims post, jes, I found Dan Bush has listed a 5" 
  ladder 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  strip. Will give it a try - hope its the same "heavy" style as the 
  one 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bowser sold.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12392
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: ladder strip
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  While not quite the same............  For many of the same  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
applications, the average heavy-duty staple is a square wire  and with  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
a bend or two makes a very strong scale foot-iron.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   On Nov 17, 2009, at 12:46 PM, Gerold Eckl wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Have just learned that Bowser has discontinued ##226 12" ladder  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> stock (
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and all other lenghts) - any idea where to get substitutes?  I found
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> this type of ladder strip quite useful for engine steps - the "scale"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ladders sold by others are much to fragile for a model that is handled
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> regularly. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12393
						From: rcjge
						Date: 11/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Varney Diesel V-4?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  hey guys:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Does anyone remember seeing an ad or picture in an old RMC or MR that showed a Varney V-4 diesel probably an F3 upside down where the V-4 was nestled into the power truck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If you have that picture could could please email me a coyy? I have one somewhere and now I can't find it.... I think it was in an "ad" but I'm not certain...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gareth
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12394
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Varney V-4 motor
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gareth,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Others might have the actual ad 
from MR or RMC but the best I can do is send these pictures. These are from a 
metal Varney F-3 diesel from my collection that has the V-4 motor attached. I 
have tried to show it  both top and bottom. Hope this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12395
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 11/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Varney V-4 motor
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I had one of those.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Swapped it off for a couple of conventional power trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Not bad, but I would bet you doin't run yours, Jim.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The way you can spot one that runs on a layout is black tape over the armature opening.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Those things will pick up any and all bits of stray metal on your track, and usually lock it solid until you remove the offending matter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > Gareth,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Others might have the actual ad from MR or RMC but the best I can do is send these pictures. These are from a metal Varney F-3 diesel from my collection that has the V-4 motor attached. I have tried to show it  both top and bottom. Hope this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12396
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Varney V-4 motor
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      You are right in that I don't 
run this particular engine. However I don't put black tape over the open 
armatures. Tape a new one to me because of "POSSIBLE" heat buildup although the 
V-2 and V-3 motors run with no open armature area.. I put a screen like Lindsay 
motors have. And you are so right in that the Varney with an open armature picks 
everything up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:51 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney V-4 
  motor
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I had one of those.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Swapped it off for a couple of conventional 
  power trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Not bad, but I would bet you doin't run yours, Jim.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The 
  way you can spot one that runs on a layout is black tape over the armature 
  opening.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Those things will pick up any and all bits of stray metal on your 
  track, and usually lock it solid until you remove the offending 
  matter.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Gareth,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Others might have the 
  actual ad from MR or RMC but the best I can do is send these pictures. These 
  are from a metal Varney F-3 diesel from my collection that has the V-4 motor 
  attached. I have tried to show it both top and bottom. Hope this 
  helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12397
						From: Bionicworm1
						Date: 11/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Open House
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  THIS WEEKEND HAVE SOME TOY TRAIN FUN!
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                   The Westchester Model Railroad Club.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Is proud to announce the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Fall 2009 Holiday Kick Off
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                         OPEN HOUSE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Operating Lionel O-Gauge Layout!
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Fastrack – TMCC – Legacy – SuperStreets
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                             Tons of Operating Accessories!
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Open House will be held on
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Saturday, November 21st
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sunday, November 22nd
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            10am – 6pm
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Now held at a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       NEW LOCATION
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                 686 Saw Mill River Road
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Ardsley, NY
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ground Level with Plenty of parking 
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  & handicap accessibility.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Photos and videos of past
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                          open houses along with directions
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Can be seen at:
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                       WestchesterModelRailroadClub.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                       WestchesterModelRailroadClub.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                       WestchesterModelRailroadClub.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Carol & Mike Rapp
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12398
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 11/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Varney V-4 motor
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yeah, but black tape aside, this is the smoothest running (and most powerful gear ratio) of any Varney F-3 motor, with it's 7-pole armature (and 13 to 1 ratio).  Can't get much better than that for operating a Varney F-3.  While there may be a few spikes left behind on the road bed if hand-laying rail, why would anyone have all this "stray metal" between there rails, except perhaps as some lost rail joiners or maybe filings at rail joints that rail nippers don't take care of.  In this event, the hobbyist just needs to run a cleaning car with a magnet attached ahead of a pusher engine before the first operation of a newly build layout.  After a few loops in each direction around the railroad, there should be no more loose steel left.  I'd never trade my V-4's in, as I value them much more than my other F-3 drives.  I do like the steel-belt variable-size pulley drives though, when used to best advantage -- largest motor (drive) pulley to smallest truck (driven) pulley, as you can really make these F-3's creep too, very smoothly.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12399
						From: J. Gareth Edwards
						Date: 11/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: varney V-4
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks Jim & Guys:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It was very helpful. I'll eventually find the ad. It had info in it as well. How was the V-4 different from a V-2 in a Super Consolie?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Gareth


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12400
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 11/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: varney V-4
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  While they were both 7-pole motors, the V-2 (and V-3) were entirely enclosed and their attached housings were designed solely for other specific operations only, such as powering post-War sprung drivered steam loco models (V-2) or pre-War steam loco models (V-3) as one way of converting them to 12 volt.  These motor units, with their accompanied housings, were not engineered to be mounted on F-3 trucks.  Internally, the actual commutator and brushes were all the same, but the shafts that their commutators were part of were of different lengths and had different gearing on the ends (of the V-2 and V-4 -- the V-3 had no gearing but was intended for the modeler's preference of worm gear (and matching axle gear).  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  As stated, the gear ratio of the V-4 is 13 to 1, whereas the gear ratio of the V-2 is 37 to 1, having both drive & driven gears enclosed within it's housing as an integral part of the motor assembly.  The V-4's driven gear is part of it's matching driven truck, but not actually part of the motor assembly as, if the motor is removed from the truck, the driven gear is left as part of the truck assembly; only the drive gear is an actual part of the motor assembly, but this motor/truck assembly has no other applications alone.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sorry, I can't supply pics of the RMC or MR ads of these motors, but they can be found in most any post-War Varney catalog.  Ray F.W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12401
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/18/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: varney V-4
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Gareth,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       I knew there was no need 
for me to answer this question when Ray W is on the scene. This is a case 
of "bow to the Varney master" as to the facts and how to write them down.  
I'm glad we could help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 5:33 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] varney V-4
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks Jim & Guys:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It was very helpful. I'll eventually find the 
  ad. It had info in it as well. How was the V-4 different from a V-2 in a Super 
  Consolie?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Gareth


                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12402
						From: toytrain13
						Date: 11/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Dropped?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I haven't received any posts (on Hotmail) for a week of so. How do I contact the Moderator to see if I've been inadvertently dropped from the forum? Regards- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12403
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 11/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Dropped?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Rich,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I believe if you are posting, you are still here. There really has been very few postings this week. Quite like a spooky little ghost town out here..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: toytrain13 <toytrain13@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 10:57:13 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Dropped?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I haven't received any posts (on Hotmail) for a week of so. How do I contact the Moderator to see if I've been inadvertently dropped from the forum? Regards- Richard White


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12404
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 11/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Dropped?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't recall much activity there either.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 7:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Dropped?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>I haven't received any posts (on Hotmail) for a week of so. How do I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>contact the Moderator to see if I've been inadvertently dropped from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>forum? Regards- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.79/2522 - Release Date: 11/23/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
19:45:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12405
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Dropped?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      According to the vintage HO site 
records the last messages sent, besides these 3 today, were Nov 18th. As Sean 
said things a little slow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  toytrain13 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:57 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Dropped?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I haven't received any posts (on Hotmail) for a week of so. How do I 
  contact the Moderator to see if I've been inadvertently dropped from the 
  forum? Regards- Richard White

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12406
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 11/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Dropped?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best way I've found is to post a message. If it comes through then I know 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm still here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
www.prrh.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
www.marx-trains.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Dropped?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I haven't received any posts (on Hotmail) for a week of so. How do I contact 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the Moderator to see if I've been inadvertently dropped from the forum? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Regards- Richard White 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12407
						From: 69_Mustang_Man
						Date: 11/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Since there has been little discussion here, I thought I might pose the question..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
With work, family and the holidays coming up and my ever crazy selling of trains to pay the paint shop for my money-pit Mustang restoration, I myself have really worked on none of my trains lately.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
on a side...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim, your packet has been my bathroom reading by the way.. I have seen nothing so far that would leave me with any concern as for the safety of the proposed foundation type. It really seems to be quite the standard when dealing with the deep mine situation..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12408
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 11/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  69_Mustang_Man wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > Since there has been little discussion here, I thought I might pose
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the question..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> With work, family and the holidays coming up and my ever crazy
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> selling of trains to pay the paint shop for my money-pit Mustang
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> restoration, I myself have really worked on none of my trains lately.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Being out of work since being laid off in February the only think i 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
am working on desperately is trying to find another job before getting 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
evicted. All hobby work has been placed in limbo until after the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
finances improve.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12409
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 11/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I bought a bunch of unassembled Strombecker kits on ioffer.com and am assembling them, and putting trucks and Mantua loop couplers on them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Also working on four Mantua mikados, and as I bought a bunch of Central Valley coach trucks at TrainFest, and five set of Walthers interiors for coaches, I am finishing those projects.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Non-vintage, I am assembling a bunch of Walthers and Athearn kits my friend at the hobby shop wants to sell as complete cars, but doesn't have the motor skills for anymore due to chemical exposure in Vietnam.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  But, all this is progressing slowly- with the economy the way it is, and unemployment in Waukegan around 25%, my computer shop is doing fairly well, as most people would rather fix up their old computer or get a refurbished and upgraded machine for $200 than spend thrice that at Debt Buy, err... Best
 Buy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Tue, 11/24/09, 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] OK... So, what is everyone working on?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 12:13 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  





 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Since there has been little discussion here, I thought I might pose the question..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
With work, family and the holidays coming up and my ever crazy selling of trains to pay the paint shop for my money-pit Mustang restoration, I myself have really worked on none of my trains lately.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
on a side...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim, your packet has been my bathroom reading by the way.. I have seen nothing so far that would leave me with any concern as for the safety of the proposed foundation type. It really seems to be quite the standard when dealing with the deep mine situation..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     



 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12410
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 11/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Picked up a Blue Line diner at Trainfest (the original pre-1953 1 piece 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
body), have another one on the bench.  Could work on the layout, have lots 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
more trolley wire to hang.    GOT to clean the basement soon so I have a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
place to work!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "69_Mustang_Man" <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:13 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] OK... So, what is everyone working on?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Since there has been little discussion here, I thought I might pose the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> question..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> With work, family and the holidays coming up and my ever crazy selling of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> trains to pay the paint shop for my money-pit Mustang restoration, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> myself have really worked on none of my trains lately.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> on a side...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jim, your packet has been my bathroom reading by the way.. I have seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> nothing so far that would leave me with any concern as for the safety of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the proposed foundation type. It really seems to be quite the standard 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> when dealing with the deep mine situation..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12411
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 11/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Dropped?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  You're apparently still OK 'cause this message came through.  I checked your 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
settings on line and everything looks normal.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The main reason a person might not get mail from the group is if your e-mail 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
address is "bouncing".  What happens is if your ISP starts rejecting 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
messages for any reason (suspected spam, full mailbox, etc.), yahoo switches 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
it to "bouncing" status and stops sending messages.  This would be across 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the board through ALL your groups, not just this one.  I go through the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
bouncing members list about once a week and send "reactivation requests". 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If you respond to one, or if at least it doesn't bounce, you get reinstated 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and should be OK.  You can always check your status by just going to your 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Yahoo profile, it will tell you if you're "bouncing"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The only time I actually delete anyone from the list (other than blatant 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
spammers) is if the request comes back that this is no longer a valid email 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
address, or if it is bouncing continuously for over a month.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If  by chance anyone should get dropped, just rejoin, it's nothing personal.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 11:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Dropped?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Best way I've found is to post a message. If it comes through then I know
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I'm still here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> www.prrh.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> www.marx-trains.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:57 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: [vintageHO] Dropped?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I haven't received any posts (on Hotmail) for a week of so. How do I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> contact
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the Moderator to see if I've been inadvertently dropped from the forum?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Regards- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12412
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: What are you doing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sending pictures of 
two buildings I just finished for my layout. They are from City Classis, 
Pittsburgh PA. You can see a little dust on the roadway as I haven't done much 
lately on the layout. Don't mind any little cardboard painted pieces under some 
of the kits. This is just a way to know how much room I'll need  when I get 
to the actual scenery. I have two kits by J L Innovative of new items out on the 
way. I also have purchased a track light of 4 
small spot lights to mount on an I beam at the front of the layout to help 
illuminate the layout better especially for pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      On the train end I have just 
refurbished Penn Lines first passenger train that had Fleischmann cars. I am 
awaiting a new addition to my collection.  An American Flyer / AC Gilbert 
FY&P (for 50 years of progress) 4-4-0 made special by Mantua. Will be 
searching for the passenger cars to go with it when money becomes 
available.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Finally I have been spending 
time sending pictures of my collection to Larry Stevenson of HOseeker to be used 
in his new section called the Gallery. Now you will be able to search for 
information in his Literature section and compare it to a picture in the 
Gallery. Should be kind of neat. I know Larry would appreciate others who would 
want to submit pictures to him. Check it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      A lot going on and new things 
for the winter to do. Lucky to be surviving the economy downturn so far. Finally 
hit 65 and now a seasoned (notice not senior) citizen but with that comes a lot 
of brain fog. Having been injured at work a number of years ago a lot of 
free time available and my better half to young to retire from her job. I've 
learned to keep her happy while I enjoy my hobby.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Happy Thanksgiving
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12413
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  But they never produced Blue Line in a Milwaukee Road scheme, Don (LOL).  Which roads did you get, BTW?  These and American Beauty are some of my favorites.  I doubt if anyone could paint and letter a car any better.  I prefer the 3-piece, roof and two sides, over the one piece body, but will collect either one.  Too bad B-L never included finished car ends, but it's not an end-of-the-world problem -- it just makes it more challenging.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12414
						From: Mike Sloane
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What are you doing [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also built the City Classics "supermarket", and it came out very well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The is only one problem: I was unable to figure out which adhesive to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
use to hold the "posters" up to the inside of the store windows. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
last thing I used ("school glue") seemed to work, but then all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
poster fell down in about a year. The problem is that I don't, of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
course, want the adhesive to show between the poster and the "glass", so 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
it has to not only be transparent but not discolor the poster where it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
is applied. Any suggestions would be welcome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I will try to remember to get an image of the model and post it later 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
today...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>       Sending pictures of two buildings I just finished for my layout. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> They are from City Classis, Pittsburgh PA. You can see a little dust on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the roadway as I haven't done much lately on the layout. Don't mind any 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> little cardboard painted pieces under some of the kits. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12415
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What are you doing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Mike,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I used white glue, even Elmer's wood glue will work, it also dries clear....:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, November 25, 2009 7:42:27 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also built the City Classics "supermarket", and it came out very well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The is only one problem: I was unable to figure out which adhesive to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  use to hold the "posters" up to the inside of the store windows. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  last thing I used ("school glue") seemed to work, but then all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  poster fell down in about a year. The problem is that I don't, of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  course, want the adhesive to show between the poster and the "glass", so 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  it has to not only be transparent but not discolor the poster where it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  is applied. Any suggestions would be welcome.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I will try to remember to
 get an image of the model and post it later 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  today...

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike

                                                                                                                                                                                                  jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >      Sending pictures of two buildings I just finished for my layout. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > They are from City Classis, Pittsburgh PA. You can see a little dust on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the roadway as I haven't done much lately on the layout. Don't mind any 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > little cardboard painted pieces under some of the kits.


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12416
						From: east_overshoe_railroad
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: dc ( not dcc) group
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I did a search of yahoo groups in search of a group devoted to dc operations, lots out there for the new dcc, but as a vintage modeler, I'm all for dc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Neal W. Chapman, NMRA 141236
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
St Paul, Mn. 5Neal 5113
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
EAST OVERSHOE RAILROAD, NMRA REG # 09-002
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
EAST OVERSHOE JUNCTION
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
EAST OVERSHOE YARDS AND SHOPS
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
EAST OVERSHOE LOGGING COMPANY
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12417
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What are you doing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike, Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
            I have encountered the problem of what glue to use to stick the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
posters on the inside of the window material too. Not only on the City 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Classic items but some others as well.. Nothing I tried worked over time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     Gary,  I don't know how you got yours to stay for long as white glues 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and such have no way to permanently adhere to this glossy smooth clear 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
plastic. You're a better man then me if you got them to stick. Everytime I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
tried, after drying,  you could  peel them right off and with time just fall 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
off..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      I tried white glue, Elmer's wood glue and AC glues if the window 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
material was a celluloid material and not  a styrene type plastic. After 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
drying they will not stay on the clear plastic material. I  had also tried 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
plastic glues. I then tried a number of tacky self adhesive glues but they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
affect the printing on the signs. After many tries and trial runs I finally 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
gave up and decided to put them on the outside of the window material.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
know thats not the best if you get REAL close but then I will use that "4 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
foot" rule someone mentioned.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      I wrote a letter to City Classics about what to use and they never 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
answered. The plans mention something about an acrylic tacky substance but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
never found or tried it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>I also built the City Classics "supermarket", and it came out very well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The is only one problem: I was unable to figure out which adhesive to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> use to hold the "posters" up to the inside of the store windows. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> last thing I used ("school glue") seemed to work, but then all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> poster fell down in about a year. The problem is that I don't, of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> course, want the adhesive to show between the poster and the "glass", so
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> it has to not only be transparent but not discolor the poster where it
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> is applied. Any suggestions would be welcome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I will try to remember to get an image of the model and post it later
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> today...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>       Sending pictures of two buildings I just finished for my layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> They are from City Classis, Pittsburgh PA. You can see a little dust on
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> the roadway as I haven't done much lately on the layout. Don't mind any
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> little cardboard painted pieces under some of the kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12418
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Supermarket Window Signs and Thankgiving!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim and All;
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thinking back to when I was a kid, the local supermarket simply used tape from the inside diagonally across each corner to hold up the weekly window signs. Check out some old time market photos and I bet that is what you will see.  Every once in a while, one of the kids working there would be scraping off the tape residue before the windows were washed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
And speaking of supermarket window signs, the ones up today say that tomorrow is Turkey Day! So wishing all a happy one, shared with family and friends, if possible. There is nothing better than that traditional scent of early baked pumpkin pie, then the big bird and all the trimmings filling a warm home. The parade on TV, and later some football. (OK, and slipping down the basement for a little model railroading, too!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Happy Thanksgiving! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(Even to those who would rather eat lasagna!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Mike, Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>             I have encountered the problem of what glue to use to stick the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> posters on the inside of the window material too. Not only on the City 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Classic items but some others as well.. Nothing I tried worked over time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>      Gary,  I don't know how you got yours to stay for long as white glues 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and such have no way to permanently adhere to this glossy smooth clear 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> plastic. You're a better man then me if you got them to stick. Everytime I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> tried, after drying,  you could  peel them right off and with time just fall 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> off..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>       I tried white glue, Elmer's wood glue and AC glues if the window 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> material was a celluloid material and not  a styrene type plastic. After 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> drying they will not stay on the clear plastic material. I  had also tried 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> plastic glues. I then tried a number of tacky self adhesive glues but they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> affect the printing on the signs. After many tries and trial runs I finally 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> gave up and decided to put them on the outside of the window material.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> know thats not the best if you get REAL close but then I will use that "4 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> foot" rule someone mentioned.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>       I wrote a letter to City Classics about what to use and they never 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> answered. The plans mention something about an acrylic tacky substance but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> never found or tried it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                              
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >I also built the City Classics "supermarket", and it came out very well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > The is only one problem: I was unable to figure out which adhesive to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > use to hold the "posters" up to the inside of the store windows. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > last thing I used ("school glue") seemed to work, but then all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > poster fell down in about a year. The problem is that I don't, of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > course, want the adhesive to show between the poster and the "glass", so
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > it has to not only be transparent but not discolor the poster where it
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > is applied. Any suggestions would be welcome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I will try to remember to get an image of the model and post it later
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > today...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >>       Sending pictures of two buildings I just finished for my layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> They are from City Classis, Pittsburgh PA. You can see a little dust on
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> the roadway as I haven't done much lately on the layout. Don't mind any
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >> little cardboard painted pieces under some of the kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12419
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: THANKSGIVING
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


  

 
In the giving of thanks, I give thanks for all of you who come
together on this electronic medium to converse and exchange views,
ideas and fun...  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Have a most happy holiday with food, friends, family, fun and
fellowship.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Stay safe...  Be even greater blessed...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12420
						From: Mike Sloane
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are you doi
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Based on what you wrote, I think I might try to put a piece of clear 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
glazing behind the outside "glass" and sandwich the posters between them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > Mike, Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>             I have encountered the problem of what glue to use to stick the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> posters on the inside of the window material too. Not only on the City 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Classic items but some others as well.. Nothing I tried worked over time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>      Gary,  I don't know how you got yours to stay for long as white glues 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and such have no way to permanently adhere to this glossy smooth clear 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> plastic. You're a better man then me if you got them to stick. Everytime I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> tried, after drying,  you could  peel them right off and with time just fall 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> off..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>       I tried white glue, Elmer's wood glue and AC glues if the window 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> material was a celluloid material and not  a styrene type plastic. After 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> drying they will not stay on the clear plastic material. I  had also tried 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> plastic glues. I then tried a number of tacky self adhesive glues but they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> affect the printing on the signs. After many tries and trial runs I finally 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> gave up and decided to put them on the outside of the window material.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> know thats not the best if you get REAL close but then I will use that "4 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> foot" rule someone mentioned.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>       I wrote a letter to City Classics about what to use and they never 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> answered. The plans mention something about an acrylic tacky substance but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> never found or tried it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                              
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> I also built the City Classics "supermarket", and it came out very well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> The is only one problem: I was unable to figure out which adhesive to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> use to hold the "posters" up to the inside of the store windows. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> last thing I used ("school glue") seemed to work, but then all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> poster fell down in about a year. The problem is that I don't, of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> course, want the adhesive to show between the poster and the "glass", so
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> it has to not only be transparent but not discolor the poster where it
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> is applied. Any suggestions would be welcome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> I will try to remember to get an image of the model and post it later
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> today...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Mike 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12421
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What are you doing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  How about gluing the back sides of the 
posters (so you can use any adhesive you want) to a seperate sheet of 
clear material and then placing that inside and up against the 
window.  If the clear sheet has some natural bow to it, you can take 
advantage of it to help hold the signs flush against the window.  The 
second clear sheet should be invisible and the sign will look as if attached to 
the window.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 6:49 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you 
  doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike, 
  Gary,

                                                                                                                                                                                                              
  I have encountered the problem of what glue to use to stick the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  posters on 
  the inside of the window material too. Not only on the City 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Classic items 
  but some others as well.. Nothing I tried worked over 
  time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Gary,  I don't know how you got 
  yours to stay for long as white glues 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and such have no way to permanently 
  adhere to this glossy smooth clear 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  plastic. You're a better man then me if 
  you got them to stick. Everytime I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  tried, after drying,  you 
  could  peel them right off and with time just fall 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  off..

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I tried white glue, Elmer's 
  wood glue and AC glues if the window 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  material was a celluloid material and 
  not  a styrene type plastic. After 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  drying they will not stay on the 
  clear plastic material. I  had also tried 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  plastic glues. I then tried 
  a number of tacky self adhesive glues but they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  affect the printing on the 
  signs. After many tries and trial runs I finally 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  gave up and decided to 
  put them on the outside of the window material.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  know thats not the 
  best if you get REAL close but then I will use that "4 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  foot" rule someone 
  mentioned.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I wrote a letter to City 
  Classics about what to use and they never 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  answered. The plans mention 
  something about an acrylic tacky substance but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  never found or tried 
  it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Mike 
  Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
  <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
  Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you 
  doing


                                                                                                                                                                                                  >I also built the City Classics "supermarket", and it came 
  out very well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The is only one problem: I was unable to figure out 
  which adhesive to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > use to hold the "posters" up to the inside of the 
  store windows. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > last thing I used ("school glue") seemed to work, 
  but then all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > poster fell down in about a year. The problem is that 
  I don't, of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > course, want the adhesive to show between the poster and 
  the "glass", so
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > it has to not only be transparent but not discolor the 
  poster where it
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > is applied. Any suggestions would be 
  welcome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I will try to remember to get an image of the model 
  and post it later
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > today...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > jim 
  heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from 
  jim heckard included 
  below]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>       Sending 
  pictures of two buildings I just finished for my layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> They are 
  from City Classis, Pittsburgh PA. You can see a little dust on
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> the 
  roadway as I haven't done much lately on the layout. Don't mind 
  any
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> little cardboard painted pieces under some of the 
  kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Yahoo! Groups 
  Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >



                                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12422
						From: Mike Sloane
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What are you doing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think that is a perfect use for all those pieces of "pilfer-proof" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
clear plastic packaging I have been saving. It isn't flat enough to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
really use for window glazing, but it is really clear and very tough (as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
anyone who has ever tried to open up one of those packages has found out!).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
ckinzer@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> How about gluing the back sides of the posters (so you can use any 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> adhesive you want) to a seperate sheet of clear material and then 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> placing that inside and up against the window.  If the clear sheet has 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> some natural bow to it, you can take advantage of it to help hold the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> signs flush against the window.  The second clear sheet should be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> invisible and the sign will look as if attached to the window.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     *From:* jim heckard <mailto:jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     *To:* vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     *Sent:* Wednesday, November 25, 2009 6:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     *Subject:* Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Mike, Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                 I have encountered the problem of what glue to use to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     stick the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     posters on the inside of the window material too. Not only on the City
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Classic items but some others as well.. Nothing I tried worked over
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     time. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12423
						From: Mike Sloane
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: dc ( not dcc) group
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am on your side, Neal - I have the track work completely done on my 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
layout and several dozen loco's (some dating back to the '50s), and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
there is no way that I am going to go the expense and trouble of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
converting to DCC. So I will just stumble along with my old fashioned DC 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(that works surprisingly well, as long as I only want to run one engine 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
at a time). I built a "transistorized momentum" walk-around throttle 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
from an article in MR about 30 years ago, and it still works quite well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
<http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/throttle.html>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
east_overshoe_railroad wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I did a search of yahoo groups in search of a group devoted to dc 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> operations, lots out there for the new dcc, but as a vintage modeler, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I'm all for dc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Neal W. Chapman, NMRA 141236
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12424
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: THANKSGIVING
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks Don!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  You have a good and safe holiday too!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, November 25, 2009 10:07:53 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] THANKSGIVING

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In the giving of thanks, I give thanks for all of you who come together on this electronic medium to converse and exchange views, ideas and fun...  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have a most happy holiday with food, friends, family, fun and fellowship.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Stay safe...  Be even greater blessed...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Staton in VA









                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12425
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are you
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  if it is a Celluloid material, that would be acetate--so an acetate cement 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
like Ambroid would be  called for---Does Testors still make "Formula A" and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"Formula B"?)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Or a contact cement like Pliobond or Goo.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:07 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Based on what you wrote, I think I might try to put a piece of clear
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> glazing behind the outside "glass" and sandwich the posters between them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Mike, Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>             I have encountered the problem of what glue to use to stick 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> posters on the inside of the window material too. Not only on the City
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Classic items but some others as well.. Nothing I tried worked over time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>      Gary,  I don't know how you got yours to stay for long as white 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> glues
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> and such have no way to permanently adhere to this glossy smooth clear
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> plastic. You're a better man then me if you got them to stick. Everytime 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> tried, after drying,  you could  peel them right off and with time just 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> fall
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> off..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>       I tried white glue, Elmer's wood glue and AC glues if the window
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> material was a celluloid material and not  a styrene type plastic. After
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> drying they will not stay on the clear plastic material. I  had also 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> plastic glues. I then tried a number of tacky self adhesive glues but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> affect the printing on the signs. After many tries and trial runs I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> finally
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> gave up and decided to put them on the outside of the window material.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> know thats not the best if you get REAL close but then I will use that "4
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> foot" rule someone mentioned.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>       I wrote a letter to City Classics about what to use and they never
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> answered. The plans mention something about an acrylic tacky substance 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> but
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> never found or tried it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> I also built the City Classics "supermarket", and it came out very well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> The is only one problem: I was unable to figure out which adhesive to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> use to hold the "posters" up to the inside of the store windows. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> last thing I used ("school glue") seemed to work, but then all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> poster fell down in about a year. The problem is that I don't, of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> course, want the adhesive to show between the poster and the "glass", so
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> it has to not only be transparent but not discolor the poster where it
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> is applied. Any suggestions would be welcome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> I will try to remember to get an image of the model and post it later
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> today...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
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No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.81/2524 - Release Date: 11/24/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12426
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What are you doing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Mike,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It depends on what you buy with that pilfer proof plastic package, larger packages do have a lot of flat areas which are perfect for windows.......:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, November 25, 2009 10:32:46 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think that is a perfect use for all those pieces of "pilfer-proof" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  clear plastic packaging I have been saving. It isn't flat enough to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  really use for window glazing, but it is really clear and very tough (as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  anyone who has ever tried to open up one of those packages has found out!).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike

                                                                                                                                                                                                  ckinzer@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > How about gluing the back sides of the posters (so you can use any 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > adhesive you want) to a seperate sheet of clear material and then 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                   placing that inside and up against the window.  If the clear sheet has 
                                                                                                                                                                                                   > some natural bow to it, you can take advantage of it to help hold the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > signs flush against the window.  The second clear sheet should be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > invisible and the sign will look as if attached to the window.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >    ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >    *From:* jim heckard <mailto:jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >    *To:* vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >    *Sent:* Wednesday, November 25, 2009 6:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >    *Subject:* Re: [vintageHO] What are you
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                   doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >    Mike, Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >                I have encountered the problem of what glue to use to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >    stick the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >    posters on the inside of the window material too. Not only on the City
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >    Classic items but some others as well.. Nothing I tried worked over
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >    time.


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12427
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What are you doing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Watch this video I did awhile back, showing that I had put some window treatment inside my Walther's Merchants row II building, I simply used carpenters wood glue, naturally you will want to make it thick enough, it dries clear, so there isn't a problem with clarity as the glue dries, it looks much better, and the photos I used are stuck in there but good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, November 25, 2009 9:49:40 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike, Gary,

                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have encountered the problem of what glue to use to stick the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  posters on the inside of the window material too. Not only on the City 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Classic items but some others as well.. Nothing I tried worked over time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Gary,  I don't know how you got yours to stay for long as white glues 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and such have no way to permanently adhere to this glossy smooth clear 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  plastic. You're a better man then me if you got them to stick. Everytime I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  tried, after drying,  you could  peel them right off and with
 time just fall 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  off..

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I tried white glue, Elmer's wood glue and AC glues if the window 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  material was a celluloid material and not  a styrene type plastic. After 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  drying they will not stay on the clear plastic material. I  had also tried 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  plastic glues. I then tried a number of tacky self adhesive glues but they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  affect the printing on the signs. After many tries and trial runs I finally 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  gave up and decided to put them on the outside of the window material.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  know thats not the best if you get REAL close but then I will use that "4 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  foot" rule someone mentioned.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I wrote a letter to City Classics about what to use and they never 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  answered. The plans mention something about an acrylic tacky substance but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  never found or tried it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                           
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing


                                                                                                                                                                                                  >I also built the City Classics "supermarket", and it came out very well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The is only one problem: I was unable to figure out which adhesive to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > use to hold the "posters" up to the inside of the store windows. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > last thing I used ("school glue") seemed to work, but then all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > poster fell down in about a year. The problem is that I don't, of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
 course, want the adhesive to show between the poster and the "glass", so
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > it has to not only be transparent but not discolor the poster where it
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > is applied. Any suggestions would be welcome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I will try to remember to get an image of the model and post it later
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > today...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>      Sending pictures of two buildings I just finished for my layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> They are from City Classis, Pittsburgh PA. You can see a little dust on
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> the roadway as I haven't done much lately on the layout. Don't mind any
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> little cardboard painted pieces under some of the kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Yahoo! Groups
 Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >



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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12428
						From: BillyDee53@aol.com
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are you
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  How bout a 2" wide scotch-type tape inside the glass, with the poster sandwiched between the tape and glass
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Bill
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12429
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are you
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hey, Gents,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      For applying posters, headlight lenses, etc. use 
Model Master Clear Parts Cement & Window Maker." I've been using 
this stuff for many years to insert MV Product lenses into Bowser headlights, 
and none of 'em have fallen out yet. . . . Just follow the directions and don't 
gunk it on too thick or you will get a shiny (but clear) area where the 
adhesive was applied. Can't say that I recommend it to produce entire sheets of 
glass, but even that isn't bad if you have to have glazing where you can't  
back an opening with celluloid or some such plastic material. In fact, if you 
have the patience and cut carefully, you can insert clear material into an 
opening and seal it in with this stuff. This idea is good for inserting glazing 
into cars where you can't get to the inside. But it will be time consuming 
to fit the glazing and you will have to wait until the adhesive is dry before 
removing the "outside" tool you use to hold the window in place, or you will 
pull the dang thing out and have to start over.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/25/2009 11:07:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
glenn476@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  if it is 
  a Celluloid material, that would be acetate--so an acetate cement 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  like 
  Ambroid would be  called for---Does Testors still make "Formula A" and 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  "Formula B"?)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Or a contact cement like Pliobond or 
  Goo.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  gj

                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Mike Sloane" 
  <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
  <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:07 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are 
  you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  doing


                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Based on what you wrote, I think I might try to 
  put a piece of clear
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > glazing behind the outside "glass" and sandwich 
  the posters between them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Mike, 
  Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>             I 
  have encountered the problem of what glue to use to stick 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> 
  the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> posters on the inside of the window material too. Not only on 
  the City
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Classic items but some others as well.. Nothing I tried 
  worked over time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>      Gary,  I 
  don't know how you got yours to stay for long as white 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> 
  glues
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> and such have no way to permanently adhere to this glossy 
  smooth clear
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> plastic. You're a better man then me if you got them 
  to stick. Everytime 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> tried, after drying,  you 
  could  peel them right off and with time just 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> 
  fall
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> off..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>       I 
  tried white glue, Elmer's wood glue and AC glues if the window
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> 
  material was a celluloid material and not  a styrene type plastic. 
  After
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> drying they will not stay on the clear plastic material. 
  I  had also 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> plastic glues. I then tried a 
  number of tacky self adhesive glues but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> affect 
  the printing on the signs. After many tries and trial runs I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> 
  finally
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> gave up and decided to put them on the outside of the 
  window material.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> know thats not the best if you get REAL 
  close but then I will use that "4
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> foot" rule someone 
  mentioned.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>       I wrote a letter 
  to City Classics about what to use and they never
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> answered. The 
  plans mention something about an acrylic tacky substance 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> 
  but
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> never found or tried 
  it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> From: "Mike Sloane" 
  <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> To: 
  <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 
  2009 7:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you 
  doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> I also built the City Classics 
  "supermarket", and it came out very well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> The is only one 
  problem: I was unable to figure out which adhesive to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> use to 
  hold the "posters" up to the inside of the store windows. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> 
  last thing I used ("school glue") seemed to work, but then all 
  the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> poster fell down in about a year. The problem is that I 
  don't, of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> course, want the adhesive to show between the poster 
  and the "glass", so
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> it has to not only be transparent but not 
  discolor the poster where it
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> is applied. Any suggestions would 
  be welcome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> I will try to remember to get an 
  image of the model and post it later
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> 
  today...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Yahoo! Groups 
  Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >


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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12430
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Blue Line ends
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ray F W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Can't agree with you more that Blue 
Line and American Beauty cars are top shelf for their time. Also the piece of 
balsa Blue Line gives you to make the car ends doesn't do it. Because of the way 
the roof and sides are "crimped" it is extremely hard to make a good 
fit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I was lucky to have found a complete 9 
car set of C&NW Blue Line cars. When I got them they needed some work 
including new ends as the balsa ones on them were poorly done.These cars while 
close to mint condition had been assembled so bad that the trucks were even 
attached using something like Goo that they didn't turn. Even little pieces of a 
round metal were attached as handrails and grabs the same way. Luckily because 
of the type of "lithographed" paint job these all pulled off the sides of the 
cars easily with no marring of the paint. Also the stuff holding on the trucks 
came off easy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I started drilling and making all the 
handrail pieces and grabs to replace them properly from Blue Line plans. I 
attached the trucks with screws and added coupler pocket at the ends of all the 
cars. I put on the roof detail as called for being lucky to have extra Blue Line 
parts. After the cars were at that point I started to think about the balsa 
ends.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    You know I am a stickler for keeping things 
100% original, if possible, but these cars are so nice I decided to go off 
course this one time instead of trying to cut and fit Balsa. Having bought 
about 100 metal passenger car ends I decided on using the NEWER OK 
Streamliner car ends. ( Last picture will show 3 bottom rows of these ends, 
without the attached aluminum door, which I used (The row above is Sampson 
ends I had made and the top two rows are the OK streamliner with attached 
aluminum doors.).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    After adding a little balsa strip between 
the bottom  where the coupler would go I painted them black and 
attached to each car. It has made a nice set nicer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12431
						From: Mike Sloane
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are you
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am going to have to buy some of that stuff! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
<http://www.testors.com/product/136942/8876C/_/Clear_Parts_Cement_Window_Maker>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
It appears that it would be useful for a LOT similar jobs around the layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks, Art.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
luvprr@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hey, Gents,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     For applying posters, headlight lenses, etc. use Model Master /Clear 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Parts Cement & Window Maker." /I've been using this stuff for many years 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> to insert MV Product lenses into Bowser headlights, and none of 'em have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> fallen out yet. . . . Just follow the directions and don't gunk it on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> too thick or you will get a shiny (but clear) area where the adhesive 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> was applied. Can't say that I recommend it to produce entire sheets of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> glass, but even that isn't bad if you have to have glazing where you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> can't  back an opening with celluloid or some such plastic material. In 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> fact, if you have the patience and cut carefully, you can insert clear 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> material into an opening and seal it in with this stuff. This idea is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> good for inserting glazing into cars where you can't get to the inside. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> But it will be time consuming to fit the glazing and you will have to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> wait until the adhesive is dry before removing the "outside" tool you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> use to hold the window in place, or you will pull the dang thing out and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> have to start over.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Art W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12432
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are you
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  To all who responded with great ideas Thank You. I do want to say 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
that I had tried to double the window (like a thermo pane) with the posters 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
inside. While I was able to attach the back of the poster to the inside 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
piece I had to have both pieces a little larger then the opening to allow me 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to join the two clear pieces together and then put the window over the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
opening. This worked very well but takes time and a measuring to get the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
posters just right before you join the two clear pieces together. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
hardest part for me then was trying to get the window material to cover the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
opening all the while keeping it straight and watching I got none of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
clear self adhesive (Goop) where it wouldn't show. (Oh by the way the plans 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
tell you to assemble the building first before applying the windows making 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
it harder to work in a more confined space. I will apply windows and such 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
before hand next time.) While it can be done it is time consuming . Yes I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
know time shouldn't matter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:07 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Based on what you wrote, I think I might try to put a piece of clear
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> glazing behind the outside "glass" and sandwich the posters between them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Mike, Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>             I have encountered the problem of what glue to use to stick 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> posters on the inside of the window material too. Not only on the City
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Classic items but some others as well.. Nothing I tried worked over time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>      Gary,  I don't know how you got yours to stay for long as white 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> glues
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> and such have no way to permanently adhere to this glossy smooth clear
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> plastic. You're a better man then me if you got them to stick. Everytime 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> tried, after drying,  you could  peel them right off and with time just 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> fall
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> off..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>       I tried white glue, Elmer's wood glue and AC glues if the window
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> material was a celluloid material and not  a styrene type plastic. After
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> drying they will not stay on the clear plastic material. I  had also 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> plastic glues. I then tried a number of tacky self adhesive glues but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> affect the printing on the signs. After many tries and trial runs I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> finally
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> gave up and decided to put them on the outside of the window material.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> know thats not the best if you get REAL close but then I will use that "4
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> foot" rule someone mentioned.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>       I wrote a letter to City Classics about what to use and they never
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> answered. The plans mention something about an acrylic tacky substance 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> but
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> never found or tried it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> I also built the City Classics "supermarket", and it came out very well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> The is only one problem: I was unable to figure out which adhesive to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> use to hold the "posters" up to the inside of the store windows. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> last thing I used ("school glue") seemed to work, but then all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> poster fell down in about a year. The problem is that I don't, of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> course, want the adhesive to show between the poster and the "glass", so
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> it has to not only be transparent but not discolor the poster where it
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> is applied. Any suggestions would be welcome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> I will try to remember to get an image of the model and post it later
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> today...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12433
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What are you doing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Sloane wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > I also built the City Classics "supermarket", and it came out very well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The is only one problem: I was unable to figure out which adhesive to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> use to hold the "posters" up to the inside of the store windows. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> last thing I used ("school glue") seemed to work, but then all the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> poster fell down in about a year. The problem is that I don't, of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> course, want the adhesive to show between the poster and the "glass", so 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> it has to not only be transparent but not discolor the poster where it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> is applied. Any suggestions would be welcome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Try one of those glue stick things. Just coat the back of the poster 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and stick it in place. I will admit to not knowing how long it will stay 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
stuck, but it's worth a try. And it would be easy enough to coat it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
again with the glue stick and press it back into place.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12434
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are you
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Man! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  So much work for such little windows... I might just opt to let the cool breeze in...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, November 25, 2009 12:52:58 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing

                                                                                                                                                                                                        To all who responded with great ideas Thank You. I do want to say 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  that I had tried to double the window (like a thermo pane) with the posters 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  inside. While I was able to attach the back of the poster to the inside 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  piece I had to have both pieces a little larger then the opening to allow me 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to join the two clear pieces together and then put the window over the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  opening. This worked very well but takes time and a measuring to get the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  posters just right before you join the two clear pieces together. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  hardest
 part for me then was trying to get the window material to cover the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  opening all the while keeping it straight and watching I got none of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  clear self adhesive (Goop) where it wouldn't show. (Oh by the way the plans 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  tell you to assemble the building first before applying the windows making 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  it harder to work in a more confined space. I will apply windows and such 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  before hand next time.) While it can be done it is time consuming . Yes I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  know time shouldn't matter.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:07 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Putting posters inside windows (was Re: [vintageHO] What are you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  doing


                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Based on what you wrote, I think I might try to put a piece of clear
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > glazing behind the outside "glass" and sandwich the posters between them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Mike, Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>            I have encountered the problem of what glue to use to stick 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> posters on the inside of the window material too. Not only on the City
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Classic items but some others as well.. Nothing I tried worked over time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>      Gary,  I don't know how you got yours to stay for long as white 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> glues
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> and such have no way to permanently adhere to this glossy smooth
 clear
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> plastic. You're a better man then me if you got them to stick. Everytime 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> tried, after drying,  you could  peel them right off and with time just 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> fall
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> off..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>      I tried white glue, Elmer's wood glue and AC glues if the window
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> material was a celluloid material and not  a styrene type plastic. After
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> drying they will not stay on the clear plastic material. I  had also 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> plastic glues. I then tried a number of tacky self adhesive glues but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> affect the printing on the signs. After many tries and trial runs I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> finally
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> gave up and decided to put them on the outside of the window material.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> know thats not the best if you get REAL close but then I will use that "4
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> foot" rule someone
 mentioned.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>      I wrote a letter to City Classics about what to use and they never
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> answered. The plans mention something about an acrylic tacky substance 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> but
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> never found or tried it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> I also built the City Classics "supermarket", and it came out very well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> The is only one problem: I was unable to figure out which adhesive
 to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> use to hold the "posters" up to the inside of the store windows. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> last thing I used ("school glue") seemed to work, but then all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> poster fell down in about a year. The problem is that I don't, of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> course, want the adhesive to show between the poster and the "glass", so
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> it has to not only be transparent but not discolor the poster where it
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> is applied. Any suggestions would be welcome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> I will try to remember to get an image of the model and post it later
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> today...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >>> Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >



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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12435
						From: Dave Royer
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What are you doing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Did you try Rubber Cement, strange stuff. Magazines use it to hold the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
mailing label on. Sold at Staples etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 9:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Mike, Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>            I have encountered the problem of what glue to use to stick the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> posters on the inside of the window material too. Not only on the City
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Classic items but some others as well.. Nothing I tried worked over time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Gary,  I don't know how you got yours to stay for long as white glues
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and such have no way to permanently adhere to this glossy smooth clear
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> plastic. You're a better man then me if you got them to stick. Everytime I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> tried, after drying,  you could  peel them right off and with time just 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> fall
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> off..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>      I tried white glue, Elmer's wood glue and AC glues if the window
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> material was a celluloid material and not  a styrene type plastic. After
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> drying they will not stay on the clear plastic material. I  had also tried
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> plastic glues. I then tried a number of tacky self adhesive glues but they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> affect the printing on the signs. After many tries and trial runs I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> finally
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> gave up and decided to put them on the outside of the window material.  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> know thats not the best if you get REAL close but then I will use that "4
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> foot" rule someone mentioned.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>      I wrote a letter to City Classics about what to use and they never
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> answered. The plans mention something about an acrylic tacky substance but
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> never found or tried it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>I also built the City Classics "supermarket", and it came out very well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> The is only one problem: I was unable to figure out which adhesive to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> use to hold the "posters" up to the inside of the store windows. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> last thing I used ("school glue") seemed to work, but then all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> poster fell down in about a year. The problem is that I don't, of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> course, want the adhesive to show between the poster and the "glass", so
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> it has to not only be transparent but not discolor the poster where it
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> is applied. Any suggestions would be welcome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> I will try to remember to get an image of the model and post it later
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> today...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>>       Sending pictures of two buildings I just finished for my layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> They are from City Classis, Pittsburgh PA. You can see a little dust on
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> the roadway as I haven't done much lately on the layout. Don't mind any
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>> little cardboard painted pieces under some of the kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12436
						From: Larry
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Supermarket Window Signs and Thankgiving!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Speaking of tape, have you tried the double stick tape that is sold for the window weather proofing kits? The tape sells in rolls and the 3M brand has one that is just the adhesive with a removable backing. Apply the adhesive to the front of the poster, remove the backing and apply to the window material. A little burnishing on the back side of the poster should do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Even if it isn't permanent, it shold hold for many years without being affected by humidity.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm not sure if Scotch brand tape makes a permanent adhesive double stick tape, but it also might be worth a try.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Larry Miller III

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Wed, 11/25/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Supermarket Window Signs and Thankgiving!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 9:06 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim and All;

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thinking back to when I was a kid, the local supermarket simply used tape from the inside diagonally across each corner to hold up the weekly window signs. Check out some old time market photos and I bet that is what you will see.  Every once in a while, one of the kids working there would be scraping off the tape residue before the windows were washed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  And speaking of supermarket window signs, the ones up today say that tomorrow is Turkey Day! So wishing all a happy one, shared with family and friends, if possible. There is nothing better than that traditional scent of early baked pumpkin pie, then the big bird and all the trimmings filling a warm home. The parade on TV, and later some football. (OK, and slipping down the basement for a little model railroading, too!)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Happy Thanksgiving! 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  (Even to those who would rather eat lasagna!)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  W Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Mike, Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >             I have encountered the problem of what glue to use to stick the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > posters on the inside of the window material too. Not only on the City 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Classic items but some others as well.. Nothing I tried worked over time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >      Gary,  I don't know how you got yours to stay for long as white glues 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and such have no way to permanently adhere to this glossy smooth clear 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > plastic. You're a better man then me if you got them to stick. Everytime I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > tried, after drying,  you could  peel them right off and with time just fall 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > off..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >       I tried white
 glue, Elmer's wood glue and AC glues if the window 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > material was a celluloid material and not  a styrene type plastic. After 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > drying they will not stay on the clear plastic material. I  had also tried 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > plastic glues. I then tried a number of tacky self adhesive glues but they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > affect the printing on the signs. After many tries and trial runs I finally 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > gave up and decided to put them on the outside of the window material.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > know thats not the best if you get REAL close but then I will use that "4 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > foot" rule someone mentioned.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >       I wrote a letter to City Classics about what to use and they never 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > answered. The plans mention something about an acrylic tacky substance but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > never found or tried it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >                               
                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >     Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:42 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >I also built the City Classics "supermarket", and it came out very well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > The is only one problem: I was unable to figure out which adhesive to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > use to hold the "posters" up to the inside of the store windows. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > last thing I used ("school glue") seemed to work, but then all the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > poster fell down in about a year. The
 problem is that I don't, of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > course, want the adhesive to show between the poster and the "glass", so
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > it has to not only be transparent but not discolor the poster where it
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > is applied. Any suggestions would be welcome.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I will try to remember to get an image of the model and post it later
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > today...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >>       Sending pictures of two buildings I just finished for my layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> They are from City Classis, Pittsburgh PA. You can see a little dust on
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> the roadway as I haven't done much lately on the layout. Don't mind any
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >> little cardboard painted pieces under some of the kits.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
 > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >




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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12437
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 6:37 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] OK... So, what is everyone working on?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> But they never produced Blue Line in a Milwaukee Road scheme, Don (LOL).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Which roads did you get, BTW?  These and American Beauty are some of my
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> favorites.  I doubt if anyone could paint and letter a car any better.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> prefer
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the 3-piece, roof and two sides, over the one piece body, but will collect
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> either one.  Too bad B-L never included finished car ends, but it's not an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> end-of-the-world problem -- it just makes it more challenging.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The diner I just got was unpainted (as have been all the "1 piece" cars I've 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
found).  The RPO is a PRR.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12438
						From: Richard White
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Blue Line ends [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  



 
Hi Jim- I too am a fan of Blue Line. What I do is fabricate the ends out of 1/8" thick styrene sheet and then apply Train Stations Products (non-working)diaphragms. I also add a couple of grab irons. I substitute basswood for the balsa wood when I fabricate the underbody details. I use 0.018" stainless steel wire (unpainted) for the side handrails and 0.018" music wire for the roof grabs (paint won't stick well to stainless steel). I furnish all my B-L cars with American Beauty swing hangers for the Kadees. For trucks I use Central Valley or GSB. By the way, the cars are not lithographed. I will eventually get around to putting some photos on the site. Right now I'm building old Red Ball kits- I bought fifty (50) of them at a TCA meet. Great kits, but not easy to build properly!  Regards- Richard White 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: jimheck@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:24:00 -0500
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Blue Line ends [4 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below] 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ray F W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Can't agree with you more that Blue Line and American Beauty cars are top shelf for their time. Also the piece of balsa Blue Line gives you to make the car ends doesn't do it. Because of the way the roof and sides are "crimped" it is extremely hard to make a good fit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I was lucky to have found a complete 9 car set of C&NW Blue Line cars. When I got them they needed some work including new ends as the balsa ones on them were poorly done.These cars while close to mint condition had been assembled so bad that the trucks were even attached using something like Goo that they didn't turn. Even little pieces of a round metal were attached as handrails and grabs the same way. Luckily because of the type of "lithographed" paint job these all pulled off the sides of the cars easily with no marring of the paint. Also the stuff holding on the trucks came off easy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I started drilling and making all the handrail pieces and grabs to replace them properly from Blue Line plans. I attached the trucks with screws and added coupler pocket at the ends of all the cars. I put on the roof detail as called for being lucky to have extra Blue Line parts. After the cars were at that point I started to think about the balsa ends.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    You know I am a stickler for keeping things 100% original, if possible, but these cars are so nice I decided to go off course this one time instead of trying to cut and fit Balsa. Having bought about 100 metal passenger car ends I decided on using the NEWER OK Streamliner car ends. ( Last picture will show 3 bottom rows of these ends, without the attached aluminum door, which I used (The row above is Sampson ends I had made and the top two rows are the OK streamliner with attached aluminum doors.).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    After adding a little balsa strip between the bottom  where the coupler would go I painted them black and attached to each car. It has made a nice set nicer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 		 	   		  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12439
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Blue Line ends
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Richard, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Since you mentioned the Blue 
Line cars are not lithographed maybe you can explain what the factory paint on 
the Blue Line cars would be called. Is it just called "baked enamel"  If so 
how do they do multiple colors ? Also what is the difference between it and 
lithographed ? I always used the word lithographed in parentheses because they 
look similar.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:51 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Blue Line 
  ends
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim- I too am a fan of Blue Line. What I do is fabricate 
  the ends out of 1/8" thick styrene sheet and then apply Train 
  Stations Products (non-working) diaphragms. I also add a couple of grab 
  irons. I substitute basswood for the balsa wood when I fabricate the 
  underbody details. I use 0.018" stainless steel wire (unpainted) for the side 
  handrails and 0.018" music wire for the roof grabs (paint won't 
  stick well to stainless steel). I furnish all my B-L cars with American Beauty 
  swing hangers for the Kadees. For trucks I use Central Valley or GSB. By the 
  way, the cars are not lithographed. I will eventually get around to putting 
  some photos on the site. Right now I'm building old Red Ball kits- I bought 
  fifty (50) of them at a TCA meet. Great kits, but not easy to build 
  properly!  Regards- Richard White 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: jimheck@losch. net
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: 
  Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:24:00 -0500
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Blue Line ends [4 
  Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  [Attachment(s) 
  from jim heckard included below] 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ray F W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Can't agree with you more that Blue 
  Line and American Beauty cars are top shelf for their time. Also the piece of 
  balsa Blue Line gives you to make the car ends doesn't do it. Because of the 
  way the roof and sides are "crimped" it is extremely hard to make a good 
  fit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     I was lucky to have found a complete 
  9 car set of C&NW Blue Line cars. When I got them they needed some work 
  including new ends as the balsa ones on them were poorly done.These cars while 
  close to mint condition had been assembled so bad that the trucks were even 
  attached using something like Goo that they didn't turn. Even little pieces of 
  a round metal were attached as handrails and grabs the same way. Luckily 
  because of the type of "lithographed" paint job these all pulled off the sides 
  of the cars easily with no marring of the paint. Also the stuff holding on the 
  trucks came off easy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I started drilling and making all the 
  handrail pieces and grabs to replace them properly from Blue Line plans. I 
  attached the trucks with screws and added coupler pocket at the ends of all 
  the cars. I put on the roof detail as called for being lucky to have extra 
  Blue Line parts. After the cars were at that point I started to think about 
  the balsa ends.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    You know I am a stickler for keeping 
  things 100% original, if possible, but these cars are so nice I decided to go 
  off course this one time instead of trying to cut and fit Balsa. Having bought 
  about 100 metal passenger car ends I decided on using the NEWER OK 
  Streamliner car ends. ( Last picture will show 3 bottom rows of these ends, 
  without the attached aluminum door, which I used (The row above is 
  Sampson ends I had made and the top two rows are the OK streamliner with 
  attached aluminum doors.).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    After adding a little balsa strip between 
  the bottom  where the coupler would go I painted them black and 
  attached to each car. It has made a nice set nicer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12440
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: To divert...Re: [vintageHO] OK... So, what is everyone working on?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  So..........
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
What might be the reaction if I get my new cnc-mill and start to make  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
similar car sides ??? Or mill from the still available OK-streamliners  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
stock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm not out to be anything commercial. What I want are passenger car  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
types made as if the original model companies made additional car  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
styles.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:37 AM, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> But they never produced Blue Line in a Milwaukee Road scheme, Don  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> (LOL).  Which roads did you get, BTW?  These and American Beauty are  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> some of my favorites.  I doubt if anyone could paint and letter a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> car any better.  I prefer the 3-piece, roof and two sides, over the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> one piece body, but will collect either one.  Too bad B-L never  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> included finished car ends, but it's not an end-of-the-world problem  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> -- it just makes it more challenging.  Ray F.W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12441
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What are you doing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'd consider artists Gloss Medium........
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   On Nov 25, 2009, at 9:14 AM, Dave Royer wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Did you try Rubber Cement, strange stuff. Magazines use it to hold the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> mailing label on. Sold at Staples etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: "jim heckard"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Mike, Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>           I have encountered the problem of what glue to use to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> stick the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> posters on the inside of the window material too. Not only on the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> City
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Classic items but some others as well.. Nothing I tried worked over  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>    Gary,  I don't know how you got yours to stay for long as white  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> glues
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> and such have no way to permanently adhere to this glossy smooth  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> clear
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> plastic. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12442
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 11/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: To divert...Re: [vintageHO] OK... So, what is everyone working o
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike, I think you're on to something there.  While such cars would not to bought to collect, there would always be a market for more specific (rather than "generic") cars of railroads, having window configurations of different diners and sleeps, etc.,  that weren't offered by the likes of Blue Line and American Beauty.  Presently, for favorite roads closer to home, I use the early unpainted Blue Line cars, finishing and decalling them in a favorite railroad scheme, but if other similar smooth side cars were offered that copied the designs of these roads, I'd be sure to buy them if this is what you have in mind.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12443
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: To divert...Re: [vintageHO] OK... So, what is everyone working o
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for the reply.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have long wanted a way to have somewhat easier ways to make cars like the Pendulum coaches or those delightful New York Central  passenger observations with the huge rear observation windows in both fluted and smooth-sided cars. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hopefully, I'll have some precision cut photo-side passenger car sides and ends following Xmas vacation. I'm banking on having the machines up by then and spending a lot of the vacation time getting experienced making the sides. These will be cnc-cut photo-stock 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just banked the funds for the cnc-mill and will get the mill after the holiday shipping glut.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I do have a method of using a manual mill with metal stock following a scale diagram for the cutting. I do have that mill and will run some sides from ............ most likely free 1.5 X 0.040 steel banding metal. I can get stacks of that from the waste bins at work.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  While I won't try to do the oval windows of the pendulum cars with that mill, it can handle any of the more typical passenger cars with squarish or round windows. There are about four never built Milwaukee Road passenger cars that are shown as mock-ups in a couple of the Milwaukee Road passenger train books. I'd like to make scale copies of those sides as one project.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It looks like I need some new NorthEastern HO passenger car roof stock and/or vac-u-form some Blue-Line roof stock. I have the parts for three CNW Blue-Line cars. It would be nice to make additional cars to have some trains of those. I can scan and match my sides to set-in stone the placement of window and door placements on matching sides of different window arrangements. Then photo-print in the proper colors and lettering.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think I need a better book on the various CNW passenger car types.

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  On Nov 26, 2009, at 5:21 AM, erieberk@... wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike, I think you're on to something there.  While such cars would not to bought to collect, there would always be a market for more specific (rather than "generic") cars of railroads, having window configurations of different diners and sleeps, etc.,  that weren't offered by the likes of Blue Line and American Beauty.  Presently, for favorite roads closer to home, I use the early unpainted Blue Line cars, finishing and decalling them in a favorite railroad scheme, but if other similar smooth side cars were offered that copied the designs of these roads, I'd be sure to buy them if this is what you have in mind.  Ray F.W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12444
						From: imp s
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: DCC? - ugh!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  a new era of snobbery emerges - "Have you converted to DCC yet?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
at the Quantico HO caricature of a club, all one hears is DCC this and DCC that!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
well, with the HAARP/GWEN activity at a peak in the war-mongering hysteria that passes for patriotism hereabouts, one can hardly wait for some rogue EMP to knock the stuffins out of all them fancy DCC controllers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
like the newer power strips that reset to 'off' when the power supply glitches, one has to go around and reset every last one of the dmnd things.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
like a space heater with electronic controls that also resets to OFF at every supply burp... if it was a critical installation, say keeping tropical fish alive, WTF do we pay for this modern trash?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
well, i dont pay for it and dont bend over for it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
all my control devices and appliances are ANALOG and mechanical.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(except for one nice old large LED wall clock. i am a sucker for the large red display!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
if the power burps, my trains start running at the same finely-tuned speed as they were before (on vintage MRC Throttlepack 500 series).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
no i dont have to go around re-setting all the bells and whistles!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
so, out of the box DCC "progress" be damned: let the RTR dweebs have their fun with assembled/painted/weathered Walthers garbage..
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
they will never know the joy and triumph of wiring a smoke unit or diode-drop constant lighting setup. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
it is only we of the VintageHO planet who will know these things.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the rest are mere children, attention-deficit transients in this world of miniature majik...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12445
						From: BillyDee53@aol.com
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC? - ugh!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Has anyone ever actually seen a DCC system that worked?  All I have ever seen are guys trying to get it to work!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Bill
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12446
						From: John Barlow
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC? - ugh!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm not a DCC supporter. I am DC. In know of club members, who work at Caboose Hobbies here in Denver, who have operated DCC and are fine with it. I have only heard one
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  who I would call an "in-your-face" fanatic on the subject. The rest aren't preaching it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The shop has a DCC test run switching track area to test DCC in HO and N scales.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The one thing I heard about DCC that makes its supporters nervous is that a computer-style virus, once a contaminated loco introduces the problem into the system, messes
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  up the others that operate thereupon. I haven't heard of a de-bugger method. Maybe somebody else knows if there is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Fri, 11/27/09, BillyDee53@... <BillyDee53@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: BillyDee53@... <BillyDee53@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DCC? - ugh!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 3:40 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Has anyone ever actually seen a DCC system that worked?  All I have ever seen are guys trying to get it to work!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12447
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC? - ugh!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Please cease the DCC discussions, that is off topic.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "John Barlow" <jdenver4150@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 5:50 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DCC? - ugh!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Bill,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm not a DCC supporter. I am DC. In know of club members, who work at 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Caboose Hobbies here in Denver, who have operated DCC and are fine with it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have only heard one
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
who I would call an "in-your-face" fanatic on the subject. The rest aren't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
preaching it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The shop has a DCC test run switching track area to test DCC in HO and N 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
scales.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The one thing I heard about DCC that makes its supporters nervous is that a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
computer-style virus, once a contaminated loco introduces the problem into 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the system, messes
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
up the others that operate thereupon. I haven't heard of a de-bugger method. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Maybe somebody else knows if there is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--- On Fri, 11/27/09, BillyDee53@... <BillyDee53@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: BillyDee53@... <BillyDee53@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DCC? - ugh!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 3:40 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Has anyone ever actually seen a DCC system that worked? All I have ever seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
are guys trying to get it to work!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Bill 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12448
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC? - ugh!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Right. We have been down the negative DCC road so many times that is 
beginning to sound definitely like "sour grapes." 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/27/2009 7:11:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
don.dellmann@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Please 
  cease the DCC discussions, that is off 
  topic.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don 
  Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "John Barlow" 
  <jdenver4150@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
  <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 5:50 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DCC? - ugh!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm not a 
  DCC supporter. I am DC. In know of club members, who work at 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Caboose 
  Hobbies here in Denver, who have operated DCC and are fine with it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have 
  only heard one
                                                                                                                                                                                                  who I would call an "in-your-face" fanatic on the subject. 
  The rest aren't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  preaching it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The shop has a DCC test run switching 
  track area to test DCC in HO and N 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  scales.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The one thing I heard 
  about DCC that makes its supporters nervous is that a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  computer-style 
  virus, once a contaminated loco introduces the problem into 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the system, 
  messes
                                                                                                                                                                                                  up the others that operate thereupon. I haven't heard of a de-bugger 
  method. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Maybe somebody else knows if there is.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  John Barlow 
  (jdenver4150@...)



                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Fri, 11/27/09, 
  BillyDee53@... <BillyDee53@...> wrote:


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  BillyDee53@... <BillyDee53@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DCC? 
  - ugh!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 
  3:40 AM






                                                                                                                                                                                                  Has anyone ever actually seen a DCC system 
  that worked? All I have ever seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are guys trying to get it to 
  work!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill










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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12449
						From: jay matz
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: DCC? - ugh!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I stopped running Dc in 1982 never looked back. I have been running NCE DCC for 12 years
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Railroad runs great. If I had to go back to DC I would build model Cas.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jay
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  See the RR at http://www.dlw-model-rr.com/ 

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Fri, 11/27/09, BillyDee53@... <BillyDee53@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: BillyDee53@... <BillyDee53@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DCC? - ugh!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 5:40 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Has anyone ever actually seen a DCC system that worked?  All I have ever seen are guys trying to get it to work!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12450
						From: John Barlow
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Major Theft Report (was: DCC? - ugh!)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Excuse me for having to report this, but I was informed earlier this month that my Public Storage unit of a number of years was burglarized...on two occasions...two locks being
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  removed and the thieves blatantly affixing their own lock after the second. The first Denver Police report was botched; the second report was made a few days ago upon investigation of the crime site/scene.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Assembled kits going back 54 years (Mantua 0-4-0T, painted with Number One, plus Reading style bobber and black flat car, Babby Ruth reefer, all hoop or ring couplers...gone.) Several not too easily disquised sets (Mantua Penn State Alumni, numbered; Rivarossi "Cardinals Special of 1926 (NYC)", a few craftsman kits and numerous
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  plastic kits (cars and structures)...all gone. No one else had authorized access...I did not talk about my having the storage unit with anyone. My father's Lionel O-27 set (PRR style 6-8-6, Number 2020, milk car, SF box, D&LW work caboose, etc.) to me as an infant...gone...going back to 1946 in age. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Recently I quietly sought to get a house after a hilatious decade plus of trying to recover financially from a nasty divorce (ex-wife did not know I had stuff stored and where.) Theories and suspicions abound...and I'm going to Denver PD to talk with Chief of Burglary Division..other (non-railroad) thefts have sprung up at this facility just recently.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm checking with various train-selling sources on-line, but I am not optomistic. I am checking with stores in the area as well. If anyone sees any large offerings out of the Denver or Colorado area, please let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Fri, 11/27/09, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DCC? - ugh!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 5:10 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Please cease the DCC discussions, that is off topic.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "John Barlow" <jdenver4150@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 5:50 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DCC? - ugh!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm not a DCC supporter. I am DC. In know of club members, who work at 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Caboose Hobbies here in Denver, who have operated DCC and are fine with it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have only heard one
                                                                                                                                                                                                  who I would call an "in-your-face" fanatic on the subject. The rest aren't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  preaching it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The shop has a DCC test run switching track area to test DCC in HO and N 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  scales.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The one thing I heard about DCC that makes its supporters nervous is that a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  computer-style virus, once a contaminated loco introduces the problem into 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the system, messes
                                                                                                                                                                                                  up the others
 that operate thereupon. I haven't heard of a de-bugger method. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Maybe somebody else knows if there is.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  John Barlow (jdenver4150@ yahoo.com)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Fri, 11/27/09, BillyDee53@aol. com <BillyDee53@aol. com> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: BillyDee53@aol. com <BillyDee53@aol. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DCC? - ugh!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 3:40 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Has anyone ever actually seen a DCC system that worked? All I have ever seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are guys trying to get it to work!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12451
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Major Theft Report (was: DCC? - ugh!)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  It always sickens me when I hear of things like this.  If there were other 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
thefts at this particular facility it wouldn't surprise me if the thiefs 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
didn't even know what they were stealing, and the models will be trashed 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
somewhere.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If they DO know the models have value, watch eBay and Craig's list, a lot of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
stolen merchandise shows up there (especially on Craig's list).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "John Barlow" <jdenver4150@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 6:36 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Major Theft Report (was: DCC? - ugh!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Group:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Excuse me for having to report this, but I was informed earlier this month 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
that my Public Storage unit of a number of years was burglarized...on two 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
occasions...two locks being
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
removed and the thieves blatantly affixing their own lock after the second. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The first Denver Police report was botched; the second report was made a few 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
days ago upon investigation of the crime site/scene.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Assembled kits going back 54 years (Mantua 0-4-0T, painted with Number One, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
plus Reading style bobber and black flat car, Babby Ruth reefer, all hoop or 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
ring couplers...gone.) Several not too easily disquised sets (Mantua Penn 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
State Alumni, numbered; Rivarossi "Cardinals Special of 1926 (NYC)", a few 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
craftsman kits and numerous
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
plastic kits (cars and structures)...all gone. No one else had authorized 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
access...I did not talk about my having the storage unit with anyone. My 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
father's Lionel O-27 set (PRR style 6-8-6, Number 2020, milk car, SF box, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
D&LW work caboose, etc.) to me as an infant...gone...going back to 1946 in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
age.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Recently I quietly sought to get a house after a hilatious decade plus of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
trying to recover financially from a nasty divorce (ex-wife did not know I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
had stuff stored and where.) Theories and suspicions abound...and I'm going 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to Denver PD to talk with Chief of Burglary Division..other (non-railroad) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
thefts have sprung up at this facility just recently.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm checking with various train-selling sources on-line, but I am not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
optomistic. I am checking with stores in the area as well. If anyone sees 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
any large offerings out of the Denver or Colorado area, please let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
John Barlow (jdenver4150@...) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12452
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What are you doing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  A few years ago I went to Office Depot and bought a box of 50 sheets of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"transparency stock" for overhead projectors for around ten bucks.   I'll 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
probably never have to buy window glazing material again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Gary Woodard" <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:24 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Hi Mike,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
It depends on what you buy with that pilfer proof plastic package, larger 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
packages do have a lot of flat areas which are perfect for windows.......:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
answer life's two most important questions!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Wed, November 25, 2009 10:32:46 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I think that is a perfect use for all those pieces of "pilfer-proof"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
clear plastic packaging I have been saving. It isn't flat enough to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
really use for window glazing, but it is really clear and very tough (as
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
anyone who has ever tried to open up one of those packages has found out!).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
ckinzer@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> How about gluing the back sides of the posters (so you can use any
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> adhesive you want) to a seperate sheet of clear material and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> placing that inside and up against the window. If the clear sheet has
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> some natural bow to it, you can take advantage of it to help hold the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> signs flush against the window. The second clear sheet should be
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> invisible and the sign will look as if attached to the window.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> *From:* jim heckard <mailto:jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> *To:* vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 25, 2009 6:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> *Subject:* Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Mike, Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have encountered the problem of what glue to use to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> stick the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> posters on the inside of the window material too. Not only on the City
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Classic items but some others as well.. Nothing I tried worked over
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Yahoo! Groups Links 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12453
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Major Theft Report
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  John,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry to hear of your loss. Years ago I had a 
grouping of vintage HO buildings stolen from a public display case because some 
fool can forgotten to lock the sliding glass doors. Being that they were 
handbuilt, I was flattered and heartbroken at the same time. But I had a 
sign taped up stating that if they were returned that there would be no 
questions asked. They were returned--though slightly damaged. I seriously doubt 
that thieves malicious enough to cut locks to get into public storage would 
be impressed with such an offer, but you never know. You could put a personals 
ad into the local papers and hope. . . . Someone of that ilk who can actually 
read a newspaper might see it and know of someone who knows someone else, etc. 
Good luck in any case.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/27/2009 8:02:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
don.dellmann@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  It 
  always sickens me when I hear of things like this.  If there were other 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  thefts at this particular facility it wouldn't surprise me if the thiefs 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  didn't even know what they were stealing, and the models will be trashed 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  somewhere.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If they DO know the models have value, watch eBay and 
  Craig's list, a lot of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  stolen merchandise shows up there (especially on 
  Craig's list).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don 
  Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "John Barlow" 
  <jdenver4150@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
  <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 6:36 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Major Theft Report (was: DCC? - 
  ugh!)


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Excuse me for having to report this, but I was 
  informed earlier this month 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  that my Public Storage unit of a number of 
  years was burglarized...on two 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  occasions...two locks being
                                                                                                                                                                                                  removed and 
  the thieves blatantly affixing their own lock after the second. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The first 
  Denver Police report was botched; the second report was made a few 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  days 
  ago upon investigation of the crime site/scene.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Assembled kits going 
  back 54 years (Mantua 0-4-0T, painted with Number One, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  plus Reading style 
  bobber and black flat car, Babby Ruth reefer, all hoop or 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ring 
  couplers...gone.) Several not too easily disquised sets (Mantua Penn 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  State 
  Alumni, numbered; Rivarossi "Cardinals Special of 1926 (NYC)", a few 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  craftsman kits and numerous
                                                                                                                                                                                                  plastic kits (cars and structures)...all 
  gone. No one else had authorized 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  access...I did not talk about my having 
  the storage unit with anyone. My 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  father's Lionel O-27 set (PRR style 
  6-8-6, Number 2020, milk car, SF box, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  D&LW work caboose, etc.) to me 
  as an infant...gone...going back to 1946 in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  age.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Recently I quietly 
  sought to get a house after a hilatious decade plus of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  trying to recover 
  financially from a nasty divorce (ex-wife did not know I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  had stuff stored 
  and where.) Theories and suspicions abound...and I'm going 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to Denver PD to 
  talk with Chief of Burglary Division..other (non-railroad) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  thefts have 
  sprung up at this facility just recently.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm checking with various 
  train-selling sources on-line, but I am not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  optomistic. I am checking with 
  stores in the area as well. If anyone sees 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  any large offerings out of the 
  Denver or Colorado area, please let me know.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  John Barlow 
  (jdenver4150@...)





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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12454
						From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Crescent Models EMC 2800
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi... I hope everyone had a Great Thanksgiving. I wanted to ask if anyone had any information about Crescent Models EMC 2800 Brass A and B units. I recently purchased a pair that was partially built, including the boxes and some paperwork. HoSeeker has the same drawings that came with them, I am looking to find out when these kits were produced and what type of drive was intended for them. There are differences between the A and B units, as to how they were produced, and the B unit has a note referring to earlier production runs. Any Information would be appreciated, since... as these pieces have already been started, I would like to complete them as intended. Thanks, Stephen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  




  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12455
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What are you doing
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  my daughter bought one of those home laminators. I've got enough scrap 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
laminator plastic to window all my cabooses, engines and buildings.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
www.prrh.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
www.marx-trains.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 8:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>A few years ago I went to Office Depot and bought a box of 50 sheets of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> "transparency stock" for overhead projectors for around ten bucks.   I'll
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> probably never have to buy window glazing material again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: "Gary Woodard" <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 10:24 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Mike,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> It depends on what you buy with that pilfer proof plastic package, larger
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> packages do have a lot of flat areas which are perfect for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> windows.......:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> answer life's two most important questions!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sent: Wed, November 25, 2009 10:32:46 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I think that is a perfect use for all those pieces of "pilfer-proof"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> clear plastic packaging I have been saving. It isn't flat enough to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> really use for window glazing, but it is really clear and very tough (as
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> anyone who has ever tried to open up one of those packages has found 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> out!).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Mike
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ckinzer@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> How about gluing the back sides of the posters (so you can use any
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> adhesive you want) to a seperate sheet of clear material and then
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> placing that inside and up against the window. If the clear sheet has
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> some natural bow to it, you can take advantage of it to help hold the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> signs flush against the window. The second clear sheet should be
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> invisible and the sign will look as if attached to the window.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> *From:* jim heckard <mailto:jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> *To:* vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 25, 2009 6:49 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> *Subject:* Re: [vintageHO] What are you doing
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Mike, Gary,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> I have encountered the problem of what glue to use to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> stick the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> posters on the inside of the window material too. Not only on the City
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Classic items but some others as well.. Nothing I tried worked over
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12456
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Crescent
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mr. Stephan Lengal, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                          
 I'm sending pictures of things I have about the Crescent "A" unit 
only.  I honestly didn't know there was a Crescent "B" unit. I would assume 
other than a slightly longer body then the A unit (minus the nose) it would also 
use 2 ends instead of one on the "A" unit.  I would love to see your B unit 
assembled or in pieces for my knowledge
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a date of made in 1950. I 
sent the paperwork to HO seeker but have found another sheet. I cannot scan 
items. I tried to copy by picture in  2 halves hoping you can read it. If 
you want a copy send me an address off site to  jimeck@... and I will be glad to 
send.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I built and painted the one in 
the picture I sent. The hardest part is getting the nose of the A unit built and 
shaped right. as you can see the motor and drive ( single truck ) is in the 
front and a gear to gear set up. I have to assume, after not seeing others, this 
would all be original set up. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hope this helps 
you
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12457
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Crescent Addition
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mr. Stephen Lengal, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                           
 This is an addition to the Email and pictures I just sent that I forgot to 
mention. The paperwork / assembly tips sheet I just sent says that this 
power unit is called a "Universal" drive and a Baker drive could be 
installed the same way. It also mentions Crescent will produce their own drive 
late. (Know idea if ever made).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12458
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Major Theft Report
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  



 
 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  about ten years ago I had a theft right off a layout--at a public 
show.  Not an easily-concealed HO loco, but an LGB G Scale Forney--that 
took some balls to get out of the mall we were set up in.  Fortunately 
insurance replaced it--but your items   cannot be replaced.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 6:09 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Major Theft 
  Report
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  John,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sorry to hear of your loss. Years ago I had a 
  grouping of vintage HO buildings stolen from a public display case because 
  some fool can forgotten to lock the sliding glass doors. Being that they were 
  handbuilt, I was flattered and heartbroken at the same time. But I had a 
  sign taped up stating that if they were returned that there would be no 
  questions asked. They were returned--though slightly damaged. I seriously 
  doubt that thieves malicious enough to cut locks to get into public 
  storage would be impressed with such an offer, but you never know. You could 
  put a personals ad into the local papers and hope. . . . Someone of that ilk 
  who can actually read a newspaper might see it and know of someone who knows 
  someone else, etc. Good luck in any case.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/27/2009 8:02:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
  don.dellmann@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  It 
    always sickens me when I hear of things like this.  If there were other 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  thefts at this particular facility it wouldn't surprise me if the thiefs 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  didn't even know what they were stealing, and the models will be trashed 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  somewhere.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If they DO know the models have value, watch eBay and 
    Craig's list, a lot of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  stolen merchandise shows up there (especially on 
    Craig's list).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don 
    Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- 
    Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "John Barlow" 
    <jdenver4150@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
    <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 6:36 
    AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Major Theft Report (was: DCC? - 
    ugh!)


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Excuse me for having to report this, but I 
    was informed earlier this month 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  that my Public Storage unit of a number 
    of years was burglarized...on two 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  occasions...two locks being
                                                                                                                                                                                                  removed 
    and the thieves blatantly affixing their own lock after the second. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The 
    first Denver Police report was botched; the second report was made a few 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  days ago upon investigation of the crime site/scene.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Assembled 
    kits going back 54 years (Mantua 0-4-0T, painted with Number One, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  plus 
    Reading style bobber and black flat car, Babby Ruth reefer, all hoop or 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ring couplers...gone.) Several not too easily disquised sets (Mantua 
    Penn 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  State Alumni, numbered; Rivarossi "Cardinals Special of 1926 
    (NYC)", a few 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  craftsman kits and numerous
                                                                                                                                                                                                  plastic kits (cars and 
    structures)...all gone. No one else had authorized 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  access...I did not 
    talk about my having the storage unit with anyone. My 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  father's Lionel 
    O-27 set (PRR style 6-8-6, Number 2020, milk car, SF box, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  D&LW work 
    caboose, etc.) to me as an infant...gone...going back to 1946 in 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  age.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Recently I quietly sought to get a house after a hilatious 
    decade plus of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  trying to recover financially from a nasty divorce 
    (ex-wife did not know I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  had stuff stored and where.) Theories and 
    suspicions abound...and I'm going 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to Denver PD to talk with Chief of 
    Burglary Division..other (non-railroad) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  thefts have sprung up at this 
    facility just recently.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm checking with various train-selling 
    sources on-line, but I am not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  optomistic. I am checking with stores in 
    the area as well. If anyone sees 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  any large offerings out of the Denver 
    or Colorado area, please let me know.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  John Barlow 
    (jdenver4150@...)





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  Date: 11/27/09 07:58:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12459
						From: chianrsteele
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Working on the new HO Chapel Car for LaBelle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm going to get them out before Christmas, It's just a matter of cutting parts by now. The design is done.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Next... on to making some sense of 3 1/2 tons of Red Ball stuff and releasing 6 new HOn3 passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Oh yes, that in addition to working full time for UP and taking care of the kids while my wife is in school in another state full time...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Rick Steele
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12460
						From: hawk53965
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: An introduction
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Greetings fellow modelers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I just joined this morning, and am looking forward to reading past and present posts. I'm 60, and started HO modeling when I was 12. I have a variety of "vintage" models, many picked up at yard sales and swap meets. A few metal side Athearns, some Varney, and several I have NO idea of the manufacturer. LOL I also have a few "partial" models from junk boxes, and would like to either find parts to complete them, or trade or sell them to someone who has the parts to finnish them. I love running the old stuff, someone elses junk often becomes my treasure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Happy to be here!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Drake Bixby
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Wisconsin Dells WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12461
						From: hawk53965
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Penn Line, an interesting find.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Perhaps this information has been discussed in the past, I have read back a few pages in messages, and have MANY more to go!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
A few years ago, I bought a couple passenger cars at a show. One was a Penn Line 60 foot baggage car, plastic, single body casting, seperate plastic frame casting, with "Penn Line" clearly embossed on the frame. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
A year ago I bought some "stuff" from a modelers, which included 5 60 fppt passenger cars. The boxes were labelled "Scene Master" with small print on the back of the box saying "Made in China for Life Like Productions".
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The "old kits" were decalled for C&NW, an RPO and a baggage, and I wanted to create a train to go with them. I researched C&NW 60 footers and found a couple fair photos. A couple of the Scene Master cars were kinda close, and when I examined the cars, I noticed the underbodys were exactly the same as the old Penn Line baggage car. The truck mounting was differant (Talgo trucks on the "Scene Master", and the "Life Like" logo was added), but at the point where the original "Penn Line" had been cast into the OLD body, the mold had been "drilled out" to leave a blank recess. These Life Like cars were made from the old Penn Line molds!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Just wanted to pass this on. Old classics never die, they just change names. LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Drake Bixby
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12462
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Maybe that helps to explain what happened to some of Penn Line's 
products--other than locomotives-- after Bowser bought them out in '63.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/27/2009 1:49:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
drake.bixby@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Perhaps 
  this information has been discussed in the past, I have read back a few pages 
  in messages, and have MANY more to go!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A few years ago, I bought a 
  couple passenger cars at a show. One was a Penn Line 60 foot baggage car, 
  plastic, single body casting, seperate plastic frame casting, with "Penn Line" 
  clearly embossed on the frame. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A year ago I bought some "stuff" from a 
  modelers, which included 5 60 fppt passenger cars. The boxes were labelled 
  "Scene Master" with small print on the back of the box saying "Made in China 
  for Life Like Productions".

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The "old kits" were decalled for C&NW, 
  an RPO and a baggage, and I wanted to create a train to go with them. I 
  researched C&NW 60 footers and found a couple fair photos. A couple of the 
  Scene Master cars were kinda close, and when I examined the cars, I noticed 
  the underbodys were exactly the same as the old Penn Line baggage car. The 
  truck mounting was differant (Talgo trucks on the "Scene Master", and the 
  "Life Like" logo was added), but at the point where the original "Penn Line" 
  had been cast into the OLD body, the mold had been "drilled out" to leave a 
  blank recess. These Life Like cars were made from the old Penn Line 
  molds!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just wanted to pass this on. Old classics never die, they just 
  change names. LOL

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Drake 
  Bixby



                                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12463
						From: Richard White
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Blue Line ends
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  



 
Hi Jim- It appears to me that the base color on the Blue Line cars (for instance, the brown on Illinois Central cars) is baked enamel. The trim colors (on the IC cars, the orange stripe and the minor yellow striping and the lettering) seems to be a water-based paint, perhaps so that they could apply this soon after the enamel base color, so as to avoid a chemical reaction. I tried to clean off some age spots on the orange stripe on an IC car, and the paint came right off! On the other hand, the Varney steel shorty cars are lithographed, resulting in a very durable paint job. Lithography is actually a "printing" process. Cheers- Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: jimheck@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:07:55 -0500
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Blue Line ends

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Richard, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Since you mentioned the Blue Line cars are not lithographed maybe you can explain what the factory paint on the Blue Line cars would be called. Is it just called "baked enamel"  If so how do they do multiple colors ? Also what is the difference between it and lithographed ? I always used the word lithographed in parentheses because they look similar.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:51 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Blue Line ends
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim- I too am a fan of Blue Line. What I do is fabricate the ends out of 1/8" thick styrene sheet and then apply Train Stations Products (non-working) diaphragms. I also add a couple of grab irons. I substitute basswood for the balsa wood when I fabricate the underbody details. I use 0.018" stainless steel wire (unpainted) for the side handrails and 0.018" music wire for the roof grabs (paint won't stick well to stainless steel). I furnish all my B-L cars with American Beauty swing hangers for the Kadees. For trucks I use Central Valley or GSB. By the way, the cars are not lithographed. I will eventually get around to putting some photos on the site. Right now I'm building old Red Ball kits- I bought fifty (50) of them at a TCA meet. Great kits, but not easy to build properly!  Regards- Richard White 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: jimheck@losch. net
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:24:00 -0500
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Blue Line ends [4 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ray F W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Can't agree with you more that Blue Line and American Beauty cars are top shelf for their time. Also the piece of balsa Blue Line gives you to make the car ends doesn't do it. Because of the way the roof and sides are "crimped" it is extremely hard to make a good fit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I was lucky to have found a complete 9 car set of C&NW Blue Line cars. When I got them they needed some work including new ends as the balsa ones on them were poorly done.These cars while close to mint condition had been assembled so bad that the trucks were even attached using something like Goo that they didn't turn. Even little pieces of a round metal were attached as handrails and grabs the same way. Luckily because of the type of "lithographed" paint job these all pulled off the sides of the cars easily with no marring of the paint. Also the stuff holding on the trucks came off easy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I started drilling and making all the handrail pieces and grabs to replace them properly from Blue Line plans. I attached the trucks with screws and added coupler pocket at the ends of all the cars. I put on the roof detail as called for being lucky to have extra Blue Line parts. After the cars were at that point I started to think about the balsa ends.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    You know I am a stickler for keeping things 100% original, if possible, but these cars are so nice I decided to go off course this one time instead of trying to cut and fit Balsa. Having bought about 100 metal passenger car ends I decided on using the NEWER OK Streamliner car ends. ( Last picture will show 3 bottom rows of these ends, without the attached aluminum door, which I used (The row above is Sampson ends I had made and the top two rows are the OK streamliner with attached aluminum doors.).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    After adding a little balsa strip between the bottom  where the coupler would go I painted them black and attached to each car. It has made a nice set nicer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 		 	   		  
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12464
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: What have you been up to
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 




 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have built the frame for the second and third
levels.  Still have to place the deck on them, but this is the hard
part.  The threaded rod hanging from the ceiling to hold up the layout is
working well so far.  Now I can make the swing gate from the helix to them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12465
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                     The history of the Penn Line and later 
passenger cars goes back a lot further and I hope my one finger doesn't give out 
trying to type this
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Back before Penn Line came into being 
John English started producing HO. Two of his items were a metal combine and 
coach. Later John English started selling plastic items under the HObbyline 
name. During this period the same two standard heavyweight combine and coach 
were produced in plastic including HObbyline plastic sided trucks and those big 
working plastic knuckle couplers. John English under the HObbyline name and near 
it's end also started to produce two types of streamlined cars in plastic,a 
Coach and Observation. John English then sold his passenger car designs  to 
Penn Line. (We are only discussing the passenger cars in this 
thread)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Penn Line expanded the number of 
passenger car types. They produced 7 in streamlined and 6 in the standard 
heavyweight. When Penn Line went up for auction the passenger cars 
became the property of Sol Kramer who by this time had already bought out 
Varney. Mr.Kramer cut back on the types of cars to only 4 of each style 
(heavyweight and streamlined).Mr. Kramer at this time was involved with Life 
Like and the name changed to LL. It was during this period from Penn Line to 
Varney/ Life Like that the Penn Line name was taken off the bottom.  You 
must remember that there is always a transition period where stock is used up 
before changes are fully made. Some Penn Line passenger cars even started 
showing up with AHM paperwork inside. Sol Kramer had LONG fingers into many 
companies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   However these passenger cars then came out 
using the Scenic Master name for Life Like. ( I think by this time only 
standard heavyweight types). So yes many companies over many years had used 
these same designs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   There is much more info to this story but in 
an effort to try to keep it short, not make mistakes from taking it off the top 
of my head I have missed some in between information that might add to many 
facts to this Email and cause more confusion then this narrative might have 
already.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 1:59 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line, an 
  interesting find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Maybe that helps to explain what happened to some of Penn Line's 
  products--other than locomotives- - after Bowser bought them out in 
  '63.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/27/2009 1:49:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, drake.bixby@ verizon.net 
  writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Perhaps this information has been discussed in the past, I have 
    read back a few pages in messages, and have MANY more to go!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A few 
    years ago, I bought a couple passenger cars at a show. One was a Penn Line 
    60 foot baggage car, plastic, single body casting, seperate plastic frame 
    casting, with "Penn Line" clearly embossed on the frame. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A year ago 
    I bought some "stuff" from a modelers, which included 5 60 fppt passenger 
    cars. The boxes were labelled "Scene Master" with small print on the back of 
    the box saying "Made in China for Life Like Productions" .

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The 
    "old kits" were decalled for C&NW, an RPO and a baggage, and I wanted to 
    create a train to go with them. I researched C&NW 60 footers and found a 
    couple fair photos. A couple of the Scene Master cars were kinda close, and 
    when I examined the cars, I noticed the underbodys were exactly the same as 
    the old Penn Line baggage car. The truck mounting was differant (Talgo 
    trucks on the "Scene Master", and the "Life Like" logo was added), but at 
    the point where the original "Penn Line" had been cast into the OLD body, 
    the mold had been "drilled out" to leave a blank recess. These Life Like 
    cars were made from the old Penn Line molds!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just wanted to pass this 
    on. Old classics never die, they just change names. LOL

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Drake 
    Bixby



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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12466
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I remember that time back in the 60's and early 
70's when so many manufactuers had a piece of the action that I couldn't keep 
track of who made what and sometimes couldn't find their names on the stuff. 
Hey, I have a question long unaswered: what is the big deal with vintage 
Flieshmann trains? There are Americans who pay huge amounts for that 
equipment in top shape. And apparently it appeals especially to folks in Germany 
or who once served in Germany. Theres a loco on eBay now that someone in Germany 
is hot for. Jim, you da man--please fill me on that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/27/2009 3:05:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
jimheck@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     The history of the Penn Line and 
  later passenger cars goes back a lot further and I hope my one finger doesn't 
  give out trying to type this
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Back before Penn Line came into 
  being John English started producing HO. Two of his items were a metal combine 
  and coach. Later John English started selling plastic items under the 
  HObbyline name. During this period the same two standard heavyweight combine 
  and coach were produced in plastic including HObbyline plastic sided trucks 
  and those big working plastic knuckle couplers. John English under the 
  HObbyline name and near it's end also started to produce two types of 
  streamlined cars in plastic,a Coach and Observation. John English then sold 
  his passenger car designs  to Penn Line. (We are only discussing the 
  passenger cars in this thread)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Penn Line expanded the number of 
  passenger car types. They produced 7 in streamlined and 6 in the standard 
  heavyweight. When Penn Line went up for auction the passenger cars 
  became the property of Sol Kramer who by this time had already bought out 
  Varney. Mr.Kramer cut back on the types of cars to only 4 of each style 
  (heavyweight and streamlined).Mr. Kramer at this time was involved with Life 
  Like and the name changed to LL. It was during this period from Penn Line to 
  Varney/ Life Like that the Penn Line name was taken off the bottom.  You 
  must remember that there is always a transition period where stock is used up 
  before changes are fully made. Some Penn Line passenger cars even started 
  showing up with AHM paperwork inside. Sol Kramer had LONG fingers into many 
  companies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   However these passenger cars then came out 
  using the Scenic Master name for Life Like. ( I think by this time only 
  standard heavyweight types). So yes many companies over many years had used 
  these same designs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   There is much more info to this story but 
  in an effort to try to keep it short, not make mistakes from taking it off the 
  top of my head I have missed some in between information that might add to 
  many facts to this Email and cause more confusion then this narrative might 
  have already.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
    luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 1:59 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line, an 
    interesting find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Maybe that helps to explain what happened to some of Penn Line's 
    products--other than locomotives- - after Bowser bought them out in 
    '63.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/27/2009 1:49:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, drake.bixby@ verizon.net 
    writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Perhaps this information has been discussed in the past, I have 
      read back a few pages in messages, and have MANY more to go!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A few 
      years ago, I bought a couple passenger cars at a show. One was a Penn Line 
      60 foot baggage car, plastic, single body casting, seperate plastic frame 
      casting, with "Penn Line" clearly embossed on the frame. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A year 
      ago I bought some "stuff" from a modelers, which included 5 60 fppt 
      passenger cars. The boxes were labelled "Scene Master" with small print on 
      the back of the box saying "Made in China for Life Like 
      Productions" .

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The "old kits" were decalled for C&NW, an 
      RPO and a baggage, and I wanted to create a train to go with them. I 
      researched C&NW 60 footers and found a couple fair photos. A couple of 
      the Scene Master cars were kinda close, and when I examined the cars, I 
      noticed the underbodys were exactly the same as the old Penn Line baggage 
      car. The truck mounting was differant (Talgo trucks on the "Scene Master", 
      and the "Life Like" logo was added), but at the point where the original 
      "Penn Line" had been cast into the OLD body, the mold had been "drilled 
      out" to leave a blank recess. These Life Like cars were made from the old 
      Penn Line molds!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just wanted to pass this on. Old classics never 
      die, they just change names. LOL

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Drake 
      Bixby



                                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------ --------- --------- ------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12467
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Postal Person just brought a new project--which may take precedence--You may 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
recall I inquired about an article regarding deck systems  to adapt some 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Lionel truss bridges--she brought the first of an On3 bridge by Mt. Blue 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Model Works.  This is similar to a deck kit that Micro Mark sells for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Plasticville bridge.  If he can get the Lionel kit for the bridge used in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the article, he might look into the HO project--if there is interest.  Who 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
says manufacturers don't listen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "chianrsteele" <chianrsteele@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 8:37 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Working on the new HO Chapel Car for LaBelle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I'm going to get them out before Christmas, It's just a matter of cutting 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> parts by now. The design is done.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Next... on to making some sense of 3 1/2 tons of Red Ball stuff and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> releasing 6 new HOn3 passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Oh yes, that in addition to working full time for UP and taking care of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the kids while my wife is in school in another state full time...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Rick Steele
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.84/2530 - Release Date: 11/27/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
07:58:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12468
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: OK... So, what is everyone working on?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  I like the way you refer to her as the "Postal Person." I'll bet she's 
sorta cute. The female ones always are when they bring those goodies they've had 
in their loving ( we hope) care and deposit them more or less at your feet. 
Women usually do spuce up an organization though I have to admit there are some 
I've met who I wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley. . . . (I wanted to use the 
word "vintage" somewhere in there so I could say I'm not "off topic," but can't 
seem to do it as well as I would like).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/27/2009 3:46:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
glenn476@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Postal 
  Person just brought a new project--which may take precedence--You may 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  recall I inquired about an article regarding deck systems  to adapt 
  some 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Lionel truss bridges--she brought the first of an On3 bridge by Mt. 
  Blue 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Model Works.  This is similar to a deck kit that Micro Mark 
  sells for the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Plasticville bridge.  If he can get the Lionel kit for 
  the bridge used in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the article, he might look into the HO project--if 
  there is interest.  Who 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  says manufacturers don't 
  listen.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "chianrsteele" 
  <chianrsteele@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
  <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 8:37 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: OK... So, what is everyone working 
  on?


                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Working on the new HO Chapel Car for 
  LaBelle.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I'm going to get them out before Christmas, It's just 
  a matter of cutting 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > parts by now. The design is done.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  Next... on to making some sense of 3 1/2 tons of Red Ball stuff and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  releasing 6 new HOn3 passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Oh yes, that in addition 
  to working full time for UP and taking care of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the kids while my wife 
  is in school in another state full time...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Rick 
  Steele
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Yahoo! Groups 
  Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >


                                                                                                                                                                                                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                                                                                                                                                                                  No 
  virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.84/2530 - Release 
  Date: 11/27/09 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  07:58:00



                                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12469
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  luvprr@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     I remember that time back in the 60's and early 70's when so many 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> manufactuers had a piece of the action that I couldn't keep track of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> who made what and sometimes couldn't find their names on the stuff. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hey, I have a question long unaswered: what is the big deal with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> vintage Flieshmann trains? There are Americans who pay huge amounts 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> for that equipment in top shape. And apparently it appeals especially 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> to folks in Germany or who once served in Germany. Theres a loco on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> eBay now that someone in Germany is hot for. Jim, you da man--please 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> fill me on that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Basically, Fleischmann has a reputation amongst European train 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
manufactureres second only to Maerklin ( which is a thing of its own 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
.... some hate it, some love it) Have noticed the most sought after  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Fleischmann loco is the fake NH EP-5 - which in reality is a GE loco of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the Netherland's Railways.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.de/C-34-Fleischmann-1390-E-Lok-Baureihe-1200-der-NS_W0QQitemZ260509315951
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
They demand crazy prices every time they show up - seems there were not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to many of them produced. I think none of them were sold in Europe.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12470
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                           I 
hope member Gerold Eckl, of Austria, jumps in on this.  I'm far 
from da man on Fleischmann  I can't answer why they are so sought 
after. Well made perhaps, run good ? I only have a few that are American 
style items or sold by American companies ( like Penn Line). Most of these made 
right after the war have embossed writing under the floor that they were "Made 
in the US zone - Germany. I figure thats why some many soldiers coming home 
brought them back
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I know both Fleischmann and Marklin ( 
probably spelled wrong ) are highly sought after and hold value. They seem to 
command a nice price. I don't have any idea how old Fleischmann is but Gerold 
should have them facts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry but this is the best I can answer your 
questions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 3:35 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line, an 
  interesting find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I remember that time back in the 60's and early 
  70's when so many manufactuers had a piece of the action that I couldn't keep 
  track of who made what and sometimes couldn't find their names on the stuff. 
  Hey, I have a question long unaswered: what is the big deal with vintage 
  Flieshmann trains? There are Americans who pay huge amounts for that 
  equipment in top shape. And apparently it appeals especially to folks in 
  Germany or who once served in Germany. Theres a loco on eBay now that someone 
  in Germany is hot for. Jim, you da man--please fill me on that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/27/2009 3:05:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
  jimheck@losch. net writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                     The history of the Penn Line and 
    later passenger cars goes back a lot further and I hope my one finger 
    doesn't give out trying to type this
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Back before Penn Line came into 
    being John English started producing HO. Two of his items were a metal 
    combine and coach. Later John English started selling plastic items under 
    the HObbyline name. During this period the same two standard heavyweight 
    combine and coach were produced in plastic including HObbyline plastic sided 
    trucks and those big working plastic knuckle couplers. John English under 
    the HObbyline name and near it's end also started to produce two types of 
    streamlined cars in plastic,a Coach and Observation. John English then sold 
    his passenger car designs  to Penn Line. (We are only discussing the 
    passenger cars in this thread)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Penn Line expanded the number of 
    passenger car types. They produced 7 in streamlined and 6 in the standard 
    heavyweight. When Penn Line went up for auction the passenger cars 
    became the property of Sol Kramer who by this time had already bought out 
    Varney. Mr.Kramer cut back on the types of cars to only 4 of each style 
    (heavyweight and streamlined) .Mr. Kramer at this time was involved with 
    Life Like and the name changed to LL. It was during this period from Penn 
    Line to Varney/ Life Like that the Penn Line name was taken off the 
    bottom.  You must remember that there is always a transition period 
    where stock is used up before changes are fully made. Some Penn Line 
    passenger cars even started showing up with AHM paperwork inside. Sol Kramer 
    had LONG fingers into many companies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   However these passenger cars then came 
    out using the Scenic Master name for Life Like. ( I think by this time 
    only standard heavyweight types). So yes many companies over many years had 
    used these same designs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   There is much more info to this story but 
    in an effort to try to keep it short, not make mistakes from taking it off 
    the top of my head I have missed some in between information that might add 
    to many facts to this Email and cause more confusion then this narrative 
    might have already.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 1:59 
      PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line, 
      an interesting find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Maybe that helps to explain what happened to some of Penn Line's 
      products--other than locomotives- - after Bowser bought them out in 
      '63.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/27/2009 1:49:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, drake.bixby@ verizon.net 
      writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Perhaps this information has been discussed in the past, I 
        have read back a few pages in messages, and have MANY more to 
        go!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A few years ago, I bought a couple passenger cars at a show. 
        One was a Penn Line 60 foot baggage car, plastic, single body casting, 
        seperate plastic frame casting, with "Penn Line" clearly embossed on the 
        frame. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A year ago I bought some "stuff" from a modelers, which 
        included 5 60 fppt passenger cars. The boxes were labelled "Scene 
        Master" with small print on the back of the box saying "Made in China 
        for Life Like Productions" .

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The "old kits" were decalled for 
        C&NW, an RPO and a baggage, and I wanted to create a train to go 
        with them. I researched C&NW 60 footers and found a couple fair 
        photos. A couple of the Scene Master cars were kinda close, and when I 
        examined the cars, I noticed the underbodys were exactly the same as the 
        old Penn Line baggage car. The truck mounting was differant (Talgo 
        trucks on the "Scene Master", and the "Life Like" logo was added), but 
        at the point where the original "Penn Line" had been cast into the OLD 
        body, the mold had been "drilled out" to leave a blank recess. These 
        Life Like cars were made from the old Penn Line molds!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just 
        wanted to pass this on. Old classics never die, they just change names. 
        LOL

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Drake 
        Bixby



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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12471
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: An introduction
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "hawk53965" <drake.bixby@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 8:02 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] An introduction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Greetings fellow modelers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I just joined this morning, and am looking forward to reading past and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> present posts. I'm 60, and started HO modeling when I was 12. I have a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> variety of "vintage" models, many picked up at yard sales and swap meets. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> A few metal side Athearns, some Varney, and several I have NO idea of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> manufacturer. LOL I also have a few "partial" models from junk boxes, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> would like to either find parts to complete them, or trade or sell them to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> someone who has the parts to finnish them. I love running the old stuff, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> someone elses junk often becomes my treasure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Happy to be here!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Drake Bixby
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Wisconsin Dells WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
And very happy to have you here, hope you enjoy the ride.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12472
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Blue Line ends
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for that info. As I said 
they all look like lithographed to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 2:15 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Blue Line 
  ends
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim- It appears to me that the base color on the Blue Line cars 
  (for instance, the brown on Illinois Central cars) is baked enamel. The 
  trim colors (on the IC cars, the orange stripe and the minor yellow 
  striping and the lettering) seems to be a water-based paint, perhaps so 
  that they could apply this soon after the enamel base color, so as to 
  avoid a chemical reaction. I tried to clean off some age spots on the orange 
  stripe on an IC car, and the paint came right off! On the other hand, the 
  Varney steel shorty cars are lithographed, resulting in a very 
  durable paint job. Lithography is actually a "printing" process. Cheers- 
  Richard White
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: jimheck@losch. net
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: 
  Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:07:55 -0500
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Blue Line 
  ends

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Richard, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Since you mentioned the Blue 
  Line cars are not lithographed maybe you can explain what the factory paint on 
  the Blue Line cars would be called. Is it just called "baked enamel"  If 
  so how do they do multiple colors ? Also what is the difference between 
  it and lithographed ? I always used the word lithographed in parentheses 
  because they look similar.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:51 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Blue Line 
    ends
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim- I too am a fan of Blue Line. What I do 
    is fabricate the ends out of 1/8" thick styrene sheet and then 
    apply Train Stations Products (non-working) diaphragms. I also add 
    a couple of grab irons. I substitute basswood for the balsa wood when I 
    fabricate the underbody details. I use 0.018" stainless steel wire 
    (unpainted) for the side handrails and 0.018" music wire for the 
    roof grabs (paint won't stick well to stainless steel). I furnish all 
    my B-L cars with American Beauty swing hangers for the Kadees. For trucks I 
    use Central Valley or GSB. By the way, the cars are not lithographed. I will 
    eventually get around to putting some photos on the site. Right now I'm 
    building old Red Ball kits- I bought fifty (50) of them at a TCA meet. Great 
    kits, but not easy to build properly!  Regards- Richard White 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: jimheck@losch. net
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: 
    Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:24:00 -0500
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Blue Line ends [4 
    Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  [Attachment(s) 
    from jim heckard included below] 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ray F W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Can't agree with you more that 
    Blue Line and American Beauty cars are top shelf for their time. Also the 
    piece of balsa Blue Line gives you to make the car ends doesn't do it. 
    Because of the way the roof and sides are "crimped" it is extremely hard 
    to make a good fit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                     I was lucky to have found a 
    complete 9 car set of C&NW Blue Line cars. When I got them they needed 
    some work including new ends as the balsa ones on them were poorly 
    done.These cars while close to mint condition had been assembled so bad that 
    the trucks were even attached using something like Goo that they didn't 
    turn. Even little pieces of a round metal were attached as handrails and 
    grabs the same way. Luckily because of the type of "lithographed" paint job 
    these all pulled off the sides of the cars easily with no marring of the 
    paint. Also the stuff holding on the trucks came off easy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I started drilling and making all the 
    handrail pieces and grabs to replace them properly from Blue Line plans. I 
    attached the trucks with screws and added coupler pocket at the ends of all 
    the cars. I put on the roof detail as called for being lucky to have extra 
    Blue Line parts. After the cars were at that point I started to think about 
    the balsa ends.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    You know I am a stickler for keeping 
    things 100% original, if possible, but these cars are so nice I decided to 
    go off course this one time instead of trying to cut and fit Balsa. Having 
    bought about 100 metal passenger car ends I decided on using 
    the NEWER OK Streamliner car ends. ( Last picture will show 3 bottom 
    rows of these ends, without the attached aluminum door, which I used 
    (The row above is Sampson ends I had made and the top two rows are the 
    OK streamliner with attached aluminum doors.).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    After adding a little balsa strip 
    between the bottom  where the coupler would go I painted them 
    black and attached to each car. It has made a nice set nicer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
    Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm 
    a rock star. 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12473
						From: John Barlow
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  "Hawk",
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you get a fairly modern made PRR pre-painted 40-foot "G101" gondola...or have one, know that the PRR never had a "G101" class gondola. That's the old Varney catalog number now half a century old, mistakenly carried down these decades by all manufacturers who ever produced it from Varney molds and screenings. Your last sentence is right on.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  John
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Fri, 11/27/09, hawk53965 <drake.bixby@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: hawk53965 <drake.bixby@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line, an interesting find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 7:42 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Perhaps this information has been discussed in the past, I have read back a few pages in messages, and have MANY more to go!!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A few years ago, I bought a couple passenger cars at a show. One was a Penn Line 60 foot baggage car, plastic, single body casting, seperate plastic frame casting, with "Penn Line" clearly embossed on the frame. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A year ago I bought some "stuff" from a modelers, which included 5 60 fppt passenger cars. The boxes were labelled "Scene Master" with small print on the back of the box saying "Made in China for Life Like Productions" .

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The "old kits" were decalled for C&NW, an RPO and a baggage, and I wanted to create a train to go with them. I researched C&NW 60 footers and found a couple fair photos. A couple of the Scene Master cars were kinda close, and when I examined the cars, I noticed the underbodys were exactly the same as the old Penn Line baggage car. The truck mounting was differant (Talgo
 trucks on the "Scene Master", and the "Life Like" logo was added), but at the point where the original "Penn Line" had been cast into the OLD body, the mold had been "drilled out" to leave a blank recess. These Life Like cars were made from the old Penn Line molds!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just wanted to pass this on. Old classics never die, they just change names. LOL

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Drake Bixby


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12474
						From: hawk53965
						Date: 11/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  My thanks to all who have resonded to my thread. Jim, your information was very enlightening. I found some digitalised Penn Line catalogues from the 50's-60-s on the net, and recognised some of the cars. One of the "Scene Master" cars didn't seem to be in the Penn line catalogues though. The box is labled "Pullman U.P.", and the guy I got them from bought it as a "Sleeper". It has 2 smaller windows to the left on both sides (NOT across from each other), restrooms I'm thinking, and seven pairs of windows with 2 differant spacings between the pairs of narrowly seperated windows. The car is lettered "Pullman" in gold above the windows, and "Columbia Gorge" below the windows. I doubt if U.P. had a 60 foot sleeper named Columbia Gorge, but it makes an interesting car. On my Free-Mo modules, I try to stay "prototypically correct", but on my home layout, I use considerable modelers license and just enjoy the trains. I can add better trucks and couplers, and weight and repaint these to give me some nice 60 foot sleepers for my imaginary home road. I needed another project anyway. LOL YEAH, RIGHT!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Some of my most enjoyable projects have started with other peoples "rejects" or basket cases. But it would take an auditorium (and War Department financing) to hold all my dreams. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
But it won't be too long before my Walthers(?) RPO and Penn Line Baggage car have a diner and a couple sleepers to follow behind. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Drake Bixby
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12475
						From: Matthew
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Looking over my collection of 1950s Model Railroaders, it is clear that Fleischmann was one of the major players for R-T-R equipment in the US Hobby. They have ads in almost every issue, including the back cover spot. A couple have women in bathing suits (risque for the time) to help 'sell' the product. Fleischmann offered a variety of "semi-US" styled equipment that ran very well. I have one of their bottom-line 0-6-0Ts that was offered through several US dealers in the late 50s and it still runs perfectly after nearly 50s years. It is seen in a number of the "Trackside Photos" in MR and Model Trains in the late 1950s.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
They offered a Baldwin Switcher also that I always wanted to buy but couldn't afford during this same time. Fleischmann also offered some of the first plastic-tie set track (later called 'Snap Track' by Atlas) so they were deeply embedded in the US Market. The fact that thousands of US Service members went to Germany during the Cold War didn't hurt their name recognition and the fact that they were two-rail and compatible with US made equipment also helped.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Matt Coleman
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> luvprr@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Basically, Fleischmann has a reputation amongst European train 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> manufactureres second only to Maerklin ( which is a thing of its own .... some hate it, some love it) Have noticed the most sought after Fleischmann loco is the fake NH EP-5 - which in reality is a GE loco of the Netherland's Railways.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://cgi.ebay.de/C-34-Fleischmann-1390-E-Lok-Baureihe-1200-der-NS_W0QQitemZ260509315951
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
They demand crazy prices every time they show up - seems there were not to many of them produced. I think none of them were sold in Europe.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12476
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Matthew wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Looking over my collection of 1950s Model Railroaders, it is clear 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> that Fleischmann was one of the major players for R-T-R equipment in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the US Hobby. They have ads in almost every issue, including the back 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> cover spot. A couple have women in bathing suits (risque for the time) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> to help 'sell' the product. Fleischmann offered a variety of "semi-US" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> styled equipment that ran very well. I have one of their bottom-line 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 0-6-0Ts that was offered through several US dealers in the late 50s 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and it still runs perfectly after nearly 50s years. It is seen in a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> number of the "Trackside Photos" in MR and Model Trains in the late 1950s.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> They offered a Baldwin Switcher also that I always wanted to buy but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> couldn't afford during this same time. Fleischmann also offered some 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> of the first plastic-tie set track (later called 'Snap Track' by 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Atlas) so they were deeply embedded in the US Market. The fact that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> thousands of US Service members went to Germany during the Cold War 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> didn't hurt their name recognition and the fact that they were 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> two-rail and compatible with US made equipment also helped.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Matt Coleman
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> -
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Some more Fleischmann recollections, as seen from the "other side" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(Austria) .... Maerklin was for the "well to do" ( Mercedes drivers) , 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Fleischmann for those who had money did things different ( Jaguar 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
drivers) , plain people only viewed both in hobbyshop windows and had to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
make do with inferior makes...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Many of the initial US models by Fleischmann were noticeably oversized  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(allegedly up to 1:72) ... especially the Baldwin VO-1000 , but also the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
ALCO FA ... looked quite strange if combined with the shorty ElCapitan 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
cars.  The F-7 they introduced was much better done, it compares well 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
with Athearn / Globe F7s although it utilizes the same drive as the FA.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Re the Fleischmann tracks, they offered brass tracks long after others 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
had switched to n/s ... unfortunately they suffer from an nasty 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
shortcoming.... the plastic tie strip shrinks, not a big deal with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
tracks but a disaster with switches.... I once bought a box full of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
special Fleischmann switches; curved, three way, high speed, .... found 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
none of the  points would move as the ties had contracted so much that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the actuator was jammed. A pity...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12477
						From: Chris B
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What have you been up to [ Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck, and all, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've also got my second level framing up and working on the third level.  I've been able to start work again since my tendonitis has calmed down.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  While I was laid up I managed to collect enough Truscale and Tenshodo to complete all three levels with double track mainline and pretty accurate models of the W&OD track plans at Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct VA in the forties.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've attached a few pictures of the layout room and of some of the track sections.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The next step in the grand plan is to neatly skin all three levels with
1/4'' luan plywood, then start laying down cork and TruScale and
Tenshodo wooden roadbed with brass rails. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  When that's done, and the grades between the three levels are running smoothly, (there goes another year<g>) then I'll replace the foam grades with basswood spline, and slap more neatly cut 1/4" luan plywood up as curved backdrops and fascia.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Then working from the top down, doing one side of the room at a time, I'll mask all the brass rail with tape or oil or wax, and lay down a decent sturdy clear furniture grade finish on all three levels of natural luan deck, as well as the roadbed, the basswood spline, and the luan backdrop.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  There goes another year, but when it's all done, I hope to be running tarnished vintage brass and unpainted diecast engines on a bare naked layout with nothing but polished wood and complex brass rail trackwork!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I spent decades in my youth restoring antique furniture for serious collectors and govt buildings here in DC, so I'm pretty
 confident I have the skills to make the wood parts of the layout look like a finished base for all the fancy trackwork.  Especially the Tenshodo track, I think I have just enough to do both Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct in the natural finish Tenshodo track, with Truscale everywhere else on the layout.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I know it's a big job to take on, and since I came up with this approach I go back and forth between thinking it's great and thinking it's crazy, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  but I'm definitely looking forward to working on all the vintage small diesel all-metal engine projects I've accumulated, and when I realized I could treat the wooden roadbed track as scenery of a certain kind, and that if I finished it all very smoothly and carefully, it won't look like a bare layout and it won't look like a traditional vintage layout, and I might actually have a finished area to work on and run vintage engines years before I'd finish a traditional layout.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I hope it looks
 something like a roomsize display cabinet for a collection of vintage engines and special trackwork that shows off how they look and how they operate. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  we'll see how it goes, but I've got the time to do it right, and now I have all the tools and lumber and trackwork and engines I need, so I better sign off and head down to the best part of the house!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From:                                                                                                                                                                                                   Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Fri, November 27, 2009 3:00:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] What have you been up to [3
 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                                  







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  






                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                   I have built the frame for the second and third
levels.  Still have to place the deck on them, but this is the hard
part.  The threaded rod hanging from the ceiling to hold up the layout is
working well so far.  Now I can make the swing gate from the helix to them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  






    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     





                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12478
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Penn Line type
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Drake ( Hawk), All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     If I understand correctly you ask 
about what you feel is an odd (window pattern) passenger car by Scenic Master 
that you didn't see in Penn Line catalogs. I am assuming by the window pattern 
you describe it is a Standard Heavyweight ( not streamlined.) type 
car
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have sent pictures of 4 Penn 
Line Pullman cars (sleepers) in different road names. I have others but boxed. I 
think these have the window pattern you mentioned and just the opposite on the 
other side (little bathroom windows actually on opposite ends of the cars. The 
Penn Line number for the U P heavyweight Pulman car is 361U.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I don't collect any of the Scenic 
Master passenger cars as they are to new for my collection. The name on the car 
you talk about Columbia Gorge intrigues me. No Penn Line standard heavyweight 
Pullman car no matter what the road name came factory named as far as 
I know although they have the word Pullman and a number on them. Now that 
is not to say Life Like / Scenic Masters didn't start doing that. I know of 
a Reading passenger set by Life Like made for the Reading Historical Society so 
they did print different roadnames from what Penn Line sold so maybe they, Life 
Like / Scenic Master, added names to cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Penn Line did use names, 
depending on the railroad, on STREAMLINED cars but again I have never seen a 
factory painted Penn Line Heavyweight car named on the normal rail road names 
they used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Now if I haven't sent the right 
picture of the right style of car you are asking about all above is mute. 
If I have the right item let me know but if not please send a picture if 
you can.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12479
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line type addition
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Drake, All,   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I must make one small edition to 
the message below. The Pullman cars described are NOT exactly the same on both 
sides window pattern wise. Look closely at the Southern Pacific and the Pennsy, 
with each showing a different side of the same type of car. You will notice the 
picture of the Pennsylvania car side has an extra by itself  little 
window . (Start on the left, two small windows, two larger and then the one 
small which changes the spacing pattern as compared to the other 
side.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Again the window pattern on both sides 
of the Penn Line Heavyweight Pullman cars ( and I assume Life Like / Scenic 
Master) are close but NOT exactly the same. Forgot to point this out in first 
message with the pictures.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 12:33 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line type [4 
  Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Drake ( Hawk), All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     If I understand correctly you ask 
  about what you feel is an odd (window pattern) passenger car by Scenic Master 
  that you didn't see in Penn Line catalogs. I am assuming by the window pattern 
  you describe it is a Standard Heavyweight ( not streamlined. ) type 
  car
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have sent pictures of 4 Penn 
  Line Pullman cars (sleepers) in different road names. I have others but boxed. 
  I think these have the window pattern you mentioned and just the opposite on 
  the other side (little bathroom windows actually on opposite ends of the cars. 
  The Penn Line number for the U P heavyweight Pulman car is 361U.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     I don't collect any of the Scenic 
  Master passenger cars as they are to new for my collection. The name on the 
  car you talk about Columbia Gorge intrigues me. No Penn Line standard 
  heavyweight Pullman car no matter what the road name came 
  factory named as far as I know although they have the word Pullman 
  and a number on them. Now that is not to say Life Like / Scenic Masters didn't 
  start doing that. I know of a Reading passenger set by Life Like made for 
  the Reading Historical Society so they did print different roadnames from what 
  Penn Line sold so maybe they, Life Like / Scenic Master, added names to 
  cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Penn Line did use names, 
  depending on the railroad, on STREAMLINED cars but again I have never seen a 
  factory painted Penn Line Heavyweight car named on the normal rail road names 
  they used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     Now if I haven't sent the right 
  picture of the right style of car you are asking about all above is mute. 
  If I have the right item let me know but if not please send a picture if 
  you can.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12480
						From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Crescent B unit
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dear Jim...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for the info on the Crescent A unit. The B unit is almost the same in construction, but the roof panels that are separate on the A unit are embossed onto the B unit. You are correct about the dimensions, and the ends. The chassis is the same, but made of brass, as opposed to the steel one for the A unit. There was a note included stating that the steel chassis from an A unit can be returned in exchange for a brass one. The power unit in your picture is one that I have seen in ads from Walthers from Model Railroader mags from the late 40's. I have one in a wooden StromBecker E unit. I'll try to get some pictures up for you quickly, hopefully within the next day or two. Also, I did get the box for the B unit. I'll try to get some pictures up within the next day or two. Thanks again, Stephen.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  




  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12481
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What have you been up to/Tru-Scale/Chris...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
Just finished studying Chris's layout and track-sections photos. 
Really enjoyed them.  I'll never be able to do anything like that,
so I appreciate seeing what others have/are doing.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I also got a real kick out of the Tru-Scale photos.  When I first
got into this stuff in the mid-1950's, I was so young I had little if any
money, and drooled over Tru-Scale constantly.  I eventually got two
or three sections of straight ReadyTrack and ONE turnout.  All of
which I still have.  Never got enough to build anything;  I
just had that much and sat around looking at it.  I later built
layout attempts with cheaper track.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Recently I've been considering trying to find enough TruScale Ready Track
on ebay to construct one oval and install a couple switches.  (Boy
that's not much gain after 50 years!!)  But it would satisfy
me.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
However, ( ! ), please educate me on Tenshodo track.  I never knew
they made something similar to TruScale, and I've never even seen it
before.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Odessa/Ritzville, E WA state wheatlands 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
At 07:47 AM 11/28/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  [
Attachment(s) from Chris B included below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Hi Chuck, and all, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've also got my second level framing up and working on the third
level.  I've been able to start work again since my tendonitis has
calmed down.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
While I was laid up I managed to collect enough Truscale and Tenshodo to
complete all three levels with double track mainline and pretty accurate
models of the W&OD track plans at Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct VA in the
forties.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've attached a few pictures of the layout room and of some of the track
sections.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The next step in the grand plan is to neatly skin all three levels with
1/4'' luan plywood, then start laying down cork and TruScale and Tenshodo
wooden roadbed with brass rails. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
When that's done, and the grades between the three levels are running
smoothly, (there goes another year<g>) then I'll replace the foam
grades with basswood spline, and slap more neatly cut 1/4" luan
plywood up as curved backdrops and fascia.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Then working from the top down, doing one side of the room at a time,
I'll mask all the brass rail with tape or oil or wax, and lay down a
decent sturdy clear furniture grade finish on all three levels of natural
luan deck, as well as the roadbed, the basswood spline, and the luan
backdrop.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
There goes another year, but when it's all done, I hope to be running
tarnished vintage brass and unpainted diecast engines on a bare naked
layout with nothing but polished wood and complex brass rail
trackwork!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I spent decades in my youth restoring antique furniture for serious
collectors and govt buildings here in DC, so I'm pretty confident I have
the skills to make the wood parts of the layout look like a finished base
for all the fancy trackwork.  Especially the Tenshodo track, I think
I have just enough to do both Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct in the natural
finish Tenshodo track, with Truscale everywhere else on the
layout.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I know it's a big job to take on, and since I came up with this approach
I go back and forth between thinking it's great and thinking it's crazy,


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
but I'm definitely looking forward to working on all the vintage small
diesel all-metal engine projects I've accumulated, and when I realized I
could treat the wooden roadbed track as scenery of a certain kind, and
that if I finished it all very smoothly and carefully, it won't look like
a bare layout and it won't look like a traditional vintage layout, and I
might actually have a finished area to work on and run vintage engines
years before I'd finish a traditional layout.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I hope it looks something like a roomsize display cabinet for a
collection of vintage engines and special trackwork that shows off how
they look and how they operate. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
we'll see how it goes, but I've got the time to do it right, and now I
have all the tools and lumber and trackwork and engines I need, so I
better sign off and head down to the best part of the house!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12482
						From: hawk53965
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line type
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  My "Scene Master" cars match the window pattern of your SP, SF, and B7O cars. Your Penn has a differant pattern. The lettering on mune is simply "Pullman" om the top, and Columbia Gorge below the windpws. I'm sure Life Like-Scenemaster added that lettering. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
So it is a Penn Line body design for a sleeper. And yes, I should have mentioned that it is a heavyweight. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I just read your second email Jim, and you are right. As many times as I have looked at those cars the last couple days, I never noticed the added small window on one side. Both of mine have that, as do all four of yours (it only shows on the Pennsy)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
My diner is probably an exact match to the Penn Line diner too (heavyweight) One side has (from left to right) a door with a very small window, Three large (wide) windows, an inch of no windows, then five wide windows. The other side is, again, not quite a mirror image. The left side has a pair of ventilator grills, then 5 wide windows, blank, then 3 wide windows, then a normal door with a tall, narrow window.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thank you for your added information. I think I'll leave the cars as they are, they LOOK good, and should accept better trucks with metal wheelsets and Kadee couplers all right. I might reletter them for my ficticious home railroad, something I would not do with an original Penn line car. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
After 60 years, the detail of these cars demonstrates the quality of craftsmanship that a mold maker had that long ago. They really are quite nice looking cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Drake
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12483
						From: Dennis Thompson
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What have I been up to
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello Group:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've been pretty slow to do any building lately.  I have gradually 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
been working on the Pre-War Varney econ. Pacific I found....the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
basket case.  With Jim H's help with parts, I'm getting the frame I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
straightened re-inforced.  I think it will come out fine and plenty 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
strong enough.  She'll run again depending on the outcome of the V-1 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
motor, which is dicey.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The most progress since I posted here several weeks ago is that I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
have accumulated several good additions to my meager 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
collection.  Once thinking I may never find a good Varney Old Lady, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
now find myself with two good examples along with a couple spare 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Casey Jones engines.  Also a Mantua Bell-of-the-Eighties and, an 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
early Mantua Goat and a spare 8-Ball Mogul.   (I love those Moguls)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
At the small train show in town on Halloween, darned if a vender 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
didn't show up with a Bowser later Challenger.  Running gear all 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
finished, rest of the kit not assembled.  He also had a Bowser early 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Pacific complete with it's Redlands box.  Both for $100.  I was there 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
selling my half-price new railroad books, so I earned enough to pay 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
for the new toys.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
So now when the snow flies, I can play in the basement all winter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks again to Jim Heckard for saving me on the old Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dennis Thompson
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12484
						From: hawk53965
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What have I been up to
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've been doing a lot of planning, and a little building. More building will begin soon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Five friends are building Free-Mo standards modules of places like Menasha, Neenah, Appleton, and Wisconsin Dells, all in Wisconsin. I live in the Dells, and spent many hours of my youth watching the way freights service the buisnesses in town. I'm modeling it as the Sanborn map of 1925 shows, much the same as I remember it in the 50's. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Lots of varied traffic ran in those areas in the 30's, the average time period of our groups modules. I have aquired many cars of that era, and have been building or repairing some. Pulp was a big item in Neena-Menasha area. I aquired 6 MDC gons, and am searching for photos of some loaded with pulp. As a kid, my grampa took me to watch the pulp unloaded at the NEPCO mill in Nekoosa, Wisconsin. Strings of gons loaded high with pulp were taken to the debarker all day and night, 5 railroades served the area. I've repainted the old MDC gons, but need to decal them for appropriate railroads yet. I've built pulp loads using small dowels and natural sticks. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I picked up some interesting cars, a gon that has "Lindburg" on the coupler cover plate and a coal load, another very low sided gon that may say "ERTL" on the cover plate, an all metal ore car with the paint flaked off one side, a wood crane tender (painted as so on the side, truss rod, tool boxes formed from a solid peice of wood, and a few other goodies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've bought a lot of old MDC reefers for the meat and cheese industries in those areas. Car trouble has kept me from driving to our "build sessions" to construct my module set, but that will be fixed soon. At least I can build rolling stock and continue research for my module. Keeps me outa trouble!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Drake Bixby
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12485
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: An introduction
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Drake,  Welcome aboard!  Looks like you're going to find this group much to your liking as we fit right in with your interests.  No doubt you'll find the archives to be a good read for you.  I noticed you also joined the MDC/Roundhouse group, but seeing that you've weighted those cars It doesn't appear that you have any of their die-cast cars.  Anyway, I hope you stay on for the long haul.  As for Scene Master, there is a NYC heavyweight Combine up on eBay right now -- #320454941027.  You might want to check it out as it's new in the box.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12486
						From: hawk53965
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: An introduction
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks Ray,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I think I will enjoy it here too. With winter coming fast, I'm glad I found some groups that I can enjoy from INSIDE my home in the coming months! Wisconsin winters and growing old don't meld well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'll be reading past posts as time permits. I'm eager to learn more, and I'm sure I will accomplish that here. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've never gone out of my way to find "old stuff", but I jump at it when I see it. I'm just beginning to learn what an Athearn metal side car is, I've found a few. When I was 12, my uncle gave me a set of 3 Varney ore cars kits (I still have one car) and a Varney PFE reefer with metal sides. Those were my treasures for years, I still run the reefer. More recently, a man gave me a box of "old junk", and for the most part it was. Tank cars with broken metal underframes, box cars missing the metal end casting, just the wood block showing, cars with rusted metal sides.... But I've identified a few and bought other "junkers" to make one complete one out of 2 or 3 basket cases. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm not a rivit counter, so I can be happy with an older car that doesn't have the precise detail of the modern 30 dollar "ready to run" cars that used to be 3.98 at the hobby shop. I recently spent a month building an MDC truss rod "Palace car" kit, taking my time, and being careful and precise. I'm very pleased with it. 50 years of practice is finally paying off! LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm a poor man, but not into collecting stuff to make money. It was made to run, so I'll run it. I'm dusgusted with todays vendors, big ones gobbling up small ones, jobbing out the work to China, then tripling prices. Its a rich mans hobby today. But not for me. My 3 dollar swap meet purchse, some spare parts, paint, and a little weathering, and I like watching my train far more than watching that 249 dollar engine pulling 40 identical-except-for-number, 30 dollar grain hoppers across the room.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I still run a HI-F drive Athearn F7 once in a while. Rubber bands don't keep well once installed, so I usually need a new set each use. My Hustlers are both shot, axle points wobble in the holes in the frame. But they look good on the siding. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've made every mistake a modeler can make. I mashed too many of the valve gear rivits for the Mantua Mike I paid 13 dollars for, mail order. And the joints I did make were either sloppy or tight. I finally just installed the main rod and was happy with that until recently. Now I want to "get it right". (All though I will probably buy an ASSEMBLED valve gear, my eyes ain't what they used to be!!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
We go through life making mistakes so that we can learn from them. As one personalised signature I saw lately said "I ougta be a genius by now". I probably drank away enough money to buy a house with a basement big enough to model Texas in its entirety, but I quit that a decade ago. But now I am a "responsible" person, and try to keep my bills paid, so I STILL don't have enough money to follow all my dreams!!! LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
But life gets better if you don't fight it so much. So, I'm here to learn, have some fun, share what I know, and maybe inspire a couple kids to enjoy this hobby.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
But I'll let 'em smash a few valve gear rivits as they go. They gotta learn too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Drake Bixby
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Wisconsin Dells WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12487
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line type
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Drake,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                               
Glad I could help you. Sometimes not that easy. I'm pretty sure your diner would 
be like the Penn Line too. If you are looking to ID for sure you can 
go into the photo album section and look for Jim Heckard's Penn Line passenger 
albums.  (One each for heavyweight and one for streamlined). You will 
find MANY albums from MANY members on MANY subjects are there to 
help. Check out Ray F W's suggestion where to look on site for information 
also. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Another way to go is to 
use   www.hoseeker.net     
Click on Literature for paperwork of many items / companies or click on 
Gallery for pictures of many items.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       All these places are 
useful but remember if you still need help a great bunch of people are available 
to help. Just ask.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  hawk53965 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 1:44 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line 
  type
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  My "Scene Master" cars match the window pattern of your SP, SF, and B7O 
  cars. Your Penn has a differant pattern. The lettering on mune is simply 
  "Pullman" om the top, and Columbia Gorge below the windpws. I'm sure Life 
  Like-Scenemaster added that lettering. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  So it is a Penn Line body 
  design for a sleeper. And yes, I should have mentioned that it is a 
  heavyweight. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just read your second email Jim, and you are right. As 
  many times as I have looked at those cars the last couple days, I never 
  noticed the added small window on one side. Both of mine have that, as do all 
  four of yours (it only shows on the Pennsy)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My diner is probably an 
  exact match to the Penn Line diner too (heavyweight) One side has (from left 
  to right) a door with a very small window, Three large (wide) windows, an inch 
  of no windows, then five wide windows. The other side is, again, not quite a 
  mirror image. The left side has a pair of ventilator grills, then 5 wide 
  windows, blank, then 3 wide windows, then a normal door with a tall, narrow 
  window.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thank you for your added information. I think I'll leave the 
  cars as they are, they LOOK good, and should accept better trucks with metal 
  wheelsets and Kadee couplers all right. I might reletter them for my 
  ficticious home railroad, something I would not do with an original Penn line 
  car. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  After 60 years, the detail of these cars demonstrates the quality 
  of craftsmanship that a mold maker had that long ago. They really are quite 
  nice looking cars.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Drake

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12488
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: More Tru-Scale; was What have you been up to/Tru-Scale/Chris...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  While not their track, my Tru-Scale treasures are their HO work train cars I bought when I first got into the hobby. They were available for a while later under another name and I got a few more cars for the work train.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Somehow their vivid MOW Orange cars appealed to me as just right for that sort of service and it's been ingrained into me as the proper color of my other MOW cars as well. Its the 50's version of a Safety-First color scheme for the maintenance divisions workcars.


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  On Nov 28, 2009, at 12:27 PM, Dennis Thompson wrote:



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just finished studying Chris's layout and track-sections photos.  Really enjoyed them.  I'll never be able to do anything like that, so I appreciate seeing what others have/are doing.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also got a real kick out of the Tru-Scale photos.  When I first got into this stuff in the mid-1950's, I was so young I had little if any money, and drooled over Tru-Scale constantly.  I eventually got two or three sections of straight ReadyTrack and ONE turnout.  All of which I still have.  Never got enough to build anything;  I just had that much and sat around looking at it.  I later built layout attempts with cheaper track.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Recently I've been considering trying to find enough TruScale Ready Track on ebay to construct one oval and install a couple switches.  (Boy that's not much gain after 50 years!!)  But it would satisfy me.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  However, ( ! ), please educate me on Tenshodo track.  I never knew they made something similar to TruScale, and I've never even seen it before.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Odessa/Ritzville, E WA state wheatlands 




                                                                                                                                                                                                  At 07:47 AM 11/28/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  [ Attachment(s) from Chris B included below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck, and all, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've also got my second level framing up and working on the third level.  I've been able to start work again since my tendonitis has calmed down.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  While I was laid up I managed to collect enough Truscale and Tenshodo to complete all three levels with double track mainline 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12489
						From: Chris B
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What have you been up to/Tru-Scale/Chris...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dennis, thanks, especially since the reason I'm going this route is because - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  after years of reading and trying to finish models or scenery so it looks like the magazines, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm ready to accept that I'll probably never be able to do scenery or paint engines the way the folks do that can really make it look real; 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  so I've decided to go with what I can do well (like fine woodworking), or with what I enjoy doing even if I can't do it all that well, (like miniature metal working and kitbashing drive trains from Hobbytown and OMI into old small metal diesels.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  That way I can still enjoy seeing pictures and reading about all the fabulous work others do, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and maybe I can finally finish a layout and some engines and enjoy just sitting back and watching them run.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also had
 just a few scraps of Truscale track for years, and used it to display models of civil war era locomotives and rolling stock at shows and presentations.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A few years ago I bought a bix box of mixed vintage goodies sight unseen at our best LHS, Lionel BuyandSell in Kensington Md, that included a pretty good pile of old Tru scale track and turnouts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  So I was pretty familiar with Truscale, but it wasn't till a few months ago when I bought some track on ebay that contained some wooden roadbed track like I'd never seen that I learned about Tenshodo track. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attached is a page from HO Seekers Tenshodo catalog section, it shows the full line.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Since I've been looking, twice I've seen it included in Tenshodo train set boxes with cars and a diecast 0-6-0 switcher, and some of the crossovers I've won on ebay have come in mint condition in unlabeled pebble finish boxes.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It was the natural finish normal frog
 turnouts from Tenshodo that really gave me the idea I'm working on now to have an all wood and brass layout.   If anyone in the group has any Tenshodo track pieces they'd be willing to sell or trade, I'd be glad to hear about it offsite.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --------

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Truscale double turnouts were the other thing I knew nothing about.  I acquired a used one that is in the photos before I really knew what I had.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Since then I managed to get three mint unused pairs of Truscale double turnouts, two in the unopened original plastic wrap packaging, and that was all I needed to really build the layout I'd been planning for the past year.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The Tru Scale double turnout in one of those pictures was a similar flash - I'd never seen one before and hadn't noticed them in the literature.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  When one of the batches I won on ebay included a double turnout, I couldn't believe it - I didn't know I could buy something I needed for my double track layout
 plan, something I'd always assumed I'd have to kitbash out of two turnouts and a 12 degree crossing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My double track layout plan was always designed to let them run continuously up and down all three levels with a minimum of electrical effort, if I did a schematic of the basic plan it's really an old fashioned dog bone that lets them run from bottom level to the top and back down without ever hitting a reverse loop or needing any action from the brass hat in the comfy chair.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  But I planned to do some switching at Rosslyn or Bluemont Jct while that regular milk run ran its course, so I knew I'd need a way to have those milk runs go to the end of the line and come on back on the opposite track without any attention.  The game was supposed to be to try and switch the junction and Rosslyn yard without getting in the way of this continuously running train that would come going one way or the other every few minutes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Since I didn't
 want to fuss with return loop block switching, and because I had the double track mainline, I thought I could cheat. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  So I'd always sketched in double turnouts at the end of the line that let me have two loops at each end.  The double turnouts mean there are switches at the end of the line connected to two concentric return loops, but because it's double track all the way around, it means electrically they aren't really return loops, and so no return loop circuitry is needed. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They just let the train coming in on the eastbound track switch over to the west bound return track, or vice versa, without ever changing current direction. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If I can't keep up with the frequency of continuous through trains, then I'll use the block gaps built in to the turnouts and park an incoming train on one of the end of the line loops, and after a suitable interval, bring out a previously parked train from the other loop.  That will kill the
 round and round effect of seeing the same train come and go too frequently, and will let me someday actually model W&OD operations with four different regular runs that come and go between the switching activity at Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  during wwII it was 150 runs a day thru Bluemont Jct, but after the war it slowed down to ten or twenty, so I don't think I'll get too worn out <g>






                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Dennis Thompson <dbt@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sat, November 28,
 2009 1:27:11 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What have you been up to/Tru-Scale/Chris...

                                                                                                                                                                                                  







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

Just finished studying Chris's layout and track-sections photos. 
Really enjoyed them.  I'll never be able to do anything like that,
so I appreciate seeing what others have/are doing.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I also got a real kick out of the Tru-Scale photos.  When I first
got into this stuff in the mid-1950's, I was so young I had little if any
money, and drooled over Tru-Scale constantly.  I eventually got two
or three sections of straight ReadyTrack and ONE turnout.  All of
which I still have.  Never got enough to build anything;  I
just had that much and sat around looking at it.  I later built
layout attempts with cheaper track.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Recently I've been considering trying to find enough TruScale Ready Track
on ebay to construct one oval and install a couple switches.  (Boy
that's not much gain after 50 years!!)  But it would satisfy
me.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
However, ( ! ), please educate me on Tenshodo track.  I never knew
they made something similar to TruScale, and I've never even seen it
before.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dennis
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Odessa/Ritzville, E WA state wheatlands 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
At 07:47 AM 11/28/2009, you wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  [
Attachment(s) from Chris B included below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Hi Chuck, and all, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've also got my second level framing up and working on the third
level.  I've been able to start work again since my tendonitis has
calmed down.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
While I was laid up I managed to collect enough Truscale and Tenshodo to
complete all three levels with double track mainline and pretty accurate
models of the W&OD track plans at Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct VA in the
forties.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've attached a few pictures of the layout room and of some of the track
sections.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The next step in the grand plan is to neatly skin all three levels with
1/4'' luan plywood, then start laying down cork and TruScale and Tenshodo
wooden roadbed with brass rails. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
When that's done, and the grades between the three levels are running
smoothly, (there goes another year<g>) then I'll replace the foam
grades with basswood spline, and slap more neatly cut 1/4" luan
plywood up as curved backdrops and fascia.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Then working from the top down, doing one side of the room at a time,
I'll mask all the brass rail with tape or oil or wax, and lay down a
decent sturdy clear furniture grade finish on all three levels of natural
luan deck, as well as the roadbed, the basswood spline, and the luan
backdrop.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
There goes another year, but when it's all done, I hope to be running
tarnished vintage brass and unpainted diecast engines on a bare naked
layout with nothing but polished wood and complex brass rail
trackwork!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I spent decades in my youth restoring antique furniture for serious
collectors and govt buildings here in DC, so I'm pretty confident I have
the skills to make the wood parts of the layout look like a finished base
for all the fancy trackwork.  Especially the Tenshodo track, I think
I have just enough to do both Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct in the natural
finish Tenshodo track, with Truscale everywhere else on the
layout.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I know it's a big job to take on, and since I came up with this approach
I go back and forth between thinking it's great and thinking it's crazy,


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
but I'm definitely looking forward to working on all the vintage small
diesel all-metal engine projects I've accumulated, and when I realized I
could treat the wooden roadbed track as scenery of a certain kind, and
that if I finished it all very smoothly and carefully, it won't look like
a bare layout and it won't look like a traditional vintage layout, and I
might actually have a finished area to work on and run vintage engines
years before I'd finish a traditional layout.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I hope it looks something like a roomsize display cabinet for a
collection of vintage engines and special trackwork that shows off how
they look and how they operate. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
we'll see how it goes, but I've got the time to do it right, and now I
have all the tools and lumber and trackwork and engines I need, so I
better sign off and head down to the best part of the house!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     





                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12490
						From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO 
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
This email message is a notification to let you know that
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
group.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  File        : /IT 1800 Reefer Car/Vol 5 No 2 Page 107.gif 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Uploaded by : mrncartoon <mrncartoon@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Description :  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
You can access this file at the URL:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/IT%201800%20Reefer%20Car/Vol%205%20No%202%20Page%20107.gif 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
mrncartoon <mrncartoon@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12491
						From: mrncartoon
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: IT 1800 Series Reefer Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Group
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
In the Files section is a new folder; IT 1800 Reefer Car with instructions for superdetailing and building from the LaBelle craftsman kit,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The original modeling article was from the Illinois Terminal Railroad Historical Society newsletter (Current Lines, Volume 5, Number 2 from August of 1980. I wrote and produced the article and am posting it here for those interested.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The decals are no longer available, but art has been provided to Rick Steele of LaBelle and if enough people express a want, I'm sure that these decals may become availabe from him in the future. Just let him know of your interest.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Larry Miller III
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12492
						From: hawk53965
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Train Miniatures flat cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I hope this qualifies as vintage, the original price on the box was $1.98!! I think they were around in the 60's, maybe before. I liked TM cars, and still have a few including a 3 car "Milwaukee Beer Companies" reefer set. (By the way, I need some roof hatches for one style of reefer)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I bought this at a swap meet and was dissapointed to discover the body of the flat was warped. Hot water didn't help, so I used liquid nails and clamped the body to the weight. The glue failed. Still warped.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Then I got a Walthers 5800 seies work caboose. Same body and underframe casting. Same warp. Is this a common problem? Is it worth ordering a couple new bodies, or will they all be warped too?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm temped to saw through the side sill, glue the frame to the weight with a jog in the middle, and fill the gap created with a putty. Any other suggestions? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
My experiences with Walthers in recent years regarding defective parts has been, shall we say, non productive. I still have all the damaged parts, and no car to run to show for it. But I'd buy the bodies if they sell them yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Can anyone help "get me straight"? LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Drake Bixby
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12493
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Matter, Gerold:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Flesichmann never used the scale 1:72. Until the early 60s, many of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
their over-sized HO trains were made to a scale of 1:85 instead of 1:87.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
While not overly large to the casual viewer, 1:85 viewed next to 1:87
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
is quite large. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Apparently, at some point in the HO gauge "growing pains" years, there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
wasn't a defacto standard as to scale, hence some mfrs used 1:85 and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
some 1:87. In the early 60s, it was finally settled (agreed upon) in Europe
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and everyone went to 1:87. The 1:85 stuff was closer to scale to the then
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Tri-Ang "OO" stuff then on the UK and Canadian markets. Around 1960,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and probably related to the change in scale, Fleischmann stopped making
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
what they referred to as "American Style" trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I was in Germany throughout the 50s and 60s in the US military. GIs
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
were equally comfortable purchasing either American or German style HO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
trains from Fleischmann, Marklin and also TT gauge from Rokal which
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
was quite popular, prevalent and inexpensive. In those days modern day
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
N scale had not yet come of age, and was still "far" into the future....
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(although we did have Arnold N scale-sized unpowered metal trains at
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the time which were sold mostly as toys, and not as models).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
It should also be noted that both Fleischmann and Marklin trains were
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
available to GIs in US military PX outlets, usually in the toy departments.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
In 1959, a Marklin passenger train set, consisting of a German DB 4-6-2,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and 3 metal passengers cars, small AC transformer and an oval of 3 rail
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
or 2 rail/1 stud AC track in a maroon (dark red) box sold at the PX for $20.00
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The loco included a tender; the 3 passenger cars were usually a red Diner 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
marked "DSG", a green coach (DB), and a dark blue sleeper, all with 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
wheel trucks and the car sides being made of painted, stamped metal.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
FYI, in later years, in the US Army, I was able to visit the production
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
facilties of Marklin in Goeppingen and Fleischmann at Nurnburg. More
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
on the visits later, if there is interest.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12494
						From: Garry Spear
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Train Miniatures flat cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Drake,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have straightened warped sides & roofs of cars by drilling holes and using 00-80 flat head bolts to straighten to warped parts, bolted to a backing metal piece.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  For metal cars (MDC) I use1/4" square brass sections with washers and bold to provide the backing.  I slowly tighten the bolts to straighten the parts.  I the bolt shows, I use flat head bolts and recess then paint the heads.  Depending on the force needed, I my use washers under the bolt heads, until the final set.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Garry Spear


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 11:31 PM, hawk53965 <drake.bixby@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  















                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I hope this qualifies as vintage, the original price on the box was $1.98!! I think they were around in the 60's, maybe before. I liked TM cars, and still have a few including a 3 car "Milwaukee Beer Companies" reefer set. (By the way, I need some roof hatches for one style of reefer)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I bought this at a swap meet and was dissapointed to discover the body of the flat was warped. Hot water didn't help, so I used liquid nails and clamped the body to the weight. The glue failed. Still warped.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Then I got a Walthers 5800 seies work caboose. Same body and underframe casting. Same warp. Is this a common problem? Is it worth ordering a couple new bodies, or will they all be warped too?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm temped to saw through the side sill, glue the frame to the weight with a jog in the middle, and fill the gap created with a putty. Any other suggestions? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
My experiences with Walthers in recent years regarding defective parts has been, shall we say, non productive. I still have all the damaged parts, and no car to run to show for it. But I'd buy the bodies if they sell them yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Can anyone help "get me straight"? LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Drake Bixby
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     

    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  



  








                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12495
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 

Matter, Gerold:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Flesichmann never used 
  the scale 1:72. Until the early 60s, many of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  their over-sized HO trains 
  were made to a scale of 1:85 instead of 1:87.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  While not overly large to 
  the casual viewer, 1:85 viewed next to 1:87
                                                                                                                                                                                                  is quite large. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Apparently, at some point in the HO gauge "growing pains" years, 
  there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  wasn't a defacto standard as to scale, hence some mfrs used 1:85 
  and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  some 1:87. In the early 60s, it was finally settled (agreed upon) in 
  Europe
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and everyone went to 1:87. The 1:85 stuff was closer to scale to the 
  then
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Tri-Ang "OO" stuff then on the UK and Canadian markets. Around 
  1960,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and probably related to the change in scale, Fleischmann stopped 
  making
                                                                                                                                                                                                  what they referred to as "American Style" trains.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I was in 
  Germany throughout the 50s and 60s in the US military. GIs
                                                                                                                                                                                                  were equally 
  comfortable purchasing either American or German style HO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  trains from 
  Fleischmann, Marklin and also TT gauge from Rokal which
                                                                                                                                                                                                  was quite popular, 
  prevalent and inexpensive. In those days modern day
                                                                                                                                                                                                  N scale had not yet 
  come of age, and was still "far" into the future....
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (although we did have 
  Arnold N scale-sized unpowered metal trains at
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the time which were sold 
  mostly as toys, and not as models).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It should also be noted that both 
  Fleischmann and Marklin trains were
                                                                                                                                                                                                  available to GIs in US military PX 
  outlets, usually in the toy departments.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  In 1959, a Marklin passenger train 
  set, consisting of a German DB 4-6-2,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and 3 metal passengers cars, small AC 
  transformer and an oval of 3 rail
                                                                                                                                                                                                  or 2 rail/1 stud AC track in a maroon 
  (dark red) box sold at the PX for $20.00
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The loco included a tender; the 3 
  passenger cars were usually a red Diner 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  marked "DSG", a green coach (DB), 
  and a dark blue sleeper, all with 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                  wheel trucks and the car sides being 
  made of painted, stamped metal.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  FYI, in later years, in the US Army, I 
  was able to visit the production
                                                                                                                                                                                                  facilties of Marklin in Goeppingen and 
  Fleischmann at Nurnburg. More
                                                                                                                                                                                                  on the visits later, if there is 
  interest.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12496
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 11/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Train Miniatures flat cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Warped flat cars........
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Warped up I hope.........
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'd do a combination of Razor saw and back-draw of a new #11 blade on  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
some of the cast crack/joints between the deck boards . While being  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
careful to not go into the side sills, for best looks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Do enough of that crack treatment  and you should be able to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
straighten the flatcar down. Don't worry too much about distressing  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the deck boards, you should continue to even out the scratching by  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
suede brushing the deck just enough to even out the distressing and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
blend in the now more used look of the deck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
With enough of that done, you'll be able to straighten the deck by  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
hand to relieve the stresses and then glue flat to the straight inner  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
metal weight.[ I would want to use some 5-minute tube epoxy for that.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
It' stinks a bit, but it should bond and hold very well for a few  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
decades.]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Be advised that nearly all wood decks are either unpainted or soon  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
look that way and the proper look for the bare wood deck is to look  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
like dirty aged naked wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Go for a light treatment of that coloring with controlled washes to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
gradually build up the look that looks right to you, go for too light  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and a few swipes of the colors. If you go too far with the paint/ 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
stain, wipe some of it off and between adding and removing, you'll  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
find the right look.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Finish the deck with some random blocking that looks like some of it  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
was nailed into the deck to keep past loads from sliding..... use  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
generally cleaner, newer looking wood for the blocking and don't be  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
afraid to leave a random timber or two as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
OR..........  go for more of the original look by treating the gaps  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
between the boards in about the same way to straighten the car, then  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
do a bit of spot putty rubbed into place with your fingers and perhaps  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
shaped just a bit with the back of a knife or whatever other tool [ an  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
old credit card would be usable here, work some with the edges ] to  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
blend the deck back to as close as possible to original condition and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
finish up with matching the original color as best as possible. If you  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
come as close as possible to the original color and then paint the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
entire deck it will blend in better with the rest of the car than if  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
you only do some of the deck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
One of the most effective ways to match a factory paint is to buy the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
shade that comes closest to it in the paint racks and bring home a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
bottle of white and black as well. Take something like plastic soda  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
bottle caps to the workbench, glue them down to something like a jar  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
cap to make them as tip-free and spill-proof as possible. Then use the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
bottle caps to partly fill with the close color, thinly brush on some  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
of that onto the car and see if it's a bit too dark or too light. Add  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
a drop or two of either the black or the white paint in the bottle cap  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to lighten or darken the color, try a brush stroke of that to compare,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and go in that way until you have a very close match, then paint the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
deck with the now very closely matching paint from the bottle cap. You  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
should need only about that much paint for the deck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Not mentioned but good to have for this are some sort of stirring  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
sticks, a few toothpicks will work well for this  project, and one or  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
two eye-droppers, as well as the proper thinner for your paint, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
finally some rags or strong paper toweling.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   On Nov 28, 2009, at 10:31 PM, hawk53965 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I hope this qualifies as vintage, the original price on the box was  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> $1.98!! I think they were around in the 60's, maybe before. I liked  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> TM cars, and still have a few including a 3 car "Milwaukee Beer  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Companies" reefer set. (By the way, I need some roof hatches for one  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> style of reefer)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I bought this at a swap meet and was dissapointed to discover the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> body of the flat was warped. Hot water didn't help, so I used liquid  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> nails and clamped the body to the weight. The glue failed. Still  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> warped.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Then I got a Walthers 5800 seies work caboose. Same body and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> underframe casting. Same warp. Is this a common problem? Is it worth  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ordering a couple new bodies, or will they all be warped too?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I'm temped to saw through the side sill, glue the frame to the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> weight with a jog in the middle, and fill the gap created with a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> putty. Any other suggestions?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> My experiences with Walthers in recent years regarding defective  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> parts has been, shall we say, non productive. I still have all the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> damaged parts, and no car to run to show for it. But I'd buy the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> bodies if they sell them yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Can anyone help "get me straight"? LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Drake Bixby 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12497
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 11/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Medford Show
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Several on these lists have inquired about the 
Campbell HO structure line. Mr. Campbell was at the Medford, Oregon show with 
quite a display.  I asked if he had a card--he gave me a DVD that has a 
phone #  (541)-664-9296 and a fax # (541)-664-6395.   When I get 
a chance to run the DVD catalog I'll see if there is any sort of 
address
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I mentioned the Aussies--he says he has a 
distributor there, but does not want to have direct orders as he has too much 
hassle getting the $$ exchanged.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kadee mainly had the new 900-series Type E couplers 
with the more scale look and internal knuckle spring--they indicate that they 
may start working on smaller sizes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Micro Trains didn't have anything new in 
HOn3--their rep was too busy to talk to for long.  Mostly their N and Z 
lines.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  That was the extent of manufacturers in 
attendance.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Glenn Joesten
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yreka, CA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12498
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 11/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: IT 1800 Series Reefer Car
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  mrncartoon wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Group
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> In the Files section is a new folder; IT 1800 Reefer Car with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> instructions for superdetailing and building from the LaBelle 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> craftsman kit,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The original modeling article was from the Illinois Terminal Railroad 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Historical Society newsletter (Current Lines, Volume 5, Number 2 from 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> August of 1980. I wrote and produced the article and am posting it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> here for those interested.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The decals are no longer available, but art has been provided to Rick 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Steele of LaBelle and if enough people express a want, I'm sure that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> these decals may become availabe from him in the future. Just let him 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> know of your interest.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Larry Miller III
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Larry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
thanks for those files. I have built one of them ten years ago ( maybe 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
my first wooden kit) , it turned out reasonably good. May build new 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
trucks for it according to the article, the wrong ones always were a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
thorn in my eye.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12499
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 11/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks for your definitive explanation of the 
Flesichmann scenario.  The "missing link" (in my mind) of the 
desirability to many older Americans of that equipment was made by your 
observation that they were available in the PX for servicemen. The nostalgia 
would be inescapable as a result, and their slightly larger size and better 
quality would explain how mint sets of these things consistently go for big 
bucks on eBay today.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Previously I couldn't quite figure out how that 
particular foreign make of American style trains could quicken the pulses 
of so many people. The closest I ever came to something similar was while in the 
Air Force and serving stateside in the peacetime Fifties. I saw a new, 
brass, articulated loco in a model railroad magazine for $100 (really big money 
for a young guy) and had the urge to splurge on it--but never did. Of course I 
wish I had now and would have treasured it all these years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 11/28/2009 11:42:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
WK2SHR@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Matter, Gerold:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Flesichmann never used the scale 
  1:72. Until the early 60s, many of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  their over-sized HO trains were made to 
  a scale of 1:85 instead of 1:87.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  While not overly large to the casual 
  viewer, 1:85 viewed next to 1:87
                                                                                                                                                                                                  is quite large. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Apparently, at 
  some point in the HO gauge "growing pains" years, there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  wasn't a defacto 
  standard as to scale, hence some mfrs used 1:85 and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  some 1:87. In the early 
  60s, it was finally settled (agreed upon) in Europe
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and everyone went to 
  1:87. The 1:85 stuff was closer to scale to the then
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Tri-Ang "OO" stuff 
  then on the UK and Canadian markets. Around 1960,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and probably related to 
  the change in scale, Fleischmann stopped making
                                                                                                                                                                                                  what they referred to as 
  "American Style" trains.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I was in Germany throughout the 50s and 60s in 
  the US military. GIs
                                                                                                                                                                                                  were equally comfortable purchasing either American or 
  German style HO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  trains from Fleischmann, Marklin and also TT gauge from 
  Rokal which
                                                                                                                                                                                                  was quite popular, prevalent and inexpensive. In those days 
  modern day
                                                                                                                                                                                                  N scale had not yet come of age, and was still "far" into the 
  future....
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (although we did have Arnold N scale-sized unpowered metal 
  trains at
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the time which were sold mostly as toys, and not as 
  models).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It should also be noted that both Fleischmann and Marklin 
  trains were
                                                                                                                                                                                                  available to GIs in US military PX outlets, usually in the toy 
  departments.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  In 1959, a Marklin passenger train set, consisting of a German 
  DB 4-6-2,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and 3 metal passengers cars, small AC transformer and an oval of 
  3 rail
                                                                                                                                                                                                  or 2 rail/1 stud AC track in a maroon (dark red) box sold at the PX 
  for $20.00
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The loco included a tender; the 3 passenger cars were usually a 
  red Diner 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  marked "DSG", a green coach (DB), and a dark blue sleeper, all 
  with 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                  wheel trucks and the car sides being made of painted, stamped 
  metal.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  FYI, in later years, in the US Army, I was able to visit the 
  production
                                                                                                                                                                                                  facilties of Marklin in Goeppingen and Fleischmann at Nurnburg. 
  More
                                                                                                                                                                                                  on the visits later, if there is 
  interest.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dave


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12500
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 11/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  As I recall, there was actually some just the opposite.  Several European 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
manufacturers actually made some of their lowest priced "HO" models as small 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
as 1:100 scale.  I also remember some early Wiking automobile models marked 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
1:96.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 1:41 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
When I was living in Marina, CA (Suburb of Fort Ord) I used to see a lot of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
those "PX Fleischmann" trains when they needed repairs.  If I could repair 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
them with commonly available parts and materials, I would.  If factory parts 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
were needed would have to send them to a factory repair station if they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
could find one.  They would not sell me parts.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: WK2SHR@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 8:41 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Matter, Gerold:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Flesichmann never used the scale 1:72. Until the early 60s, many of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  their over-sized HO trains were made to a scale of 1:85 instead of 1:87.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  While not overly large to the casual viewer, 1:85 viewed next to 1:87
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  is quite large.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Apparently, at some point in the HO gauge "growing pains" years, there
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  wasn't a defacto standard as to scale, hence some mfrs used 1:85 and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  some 1:87. In the early 60s, it was finally settled (agreed upon) in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Europe
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  and everyone went to 1:87. The 1:85 stuff was closer to scale to the then
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Tri-Ang "OO" stuff then on the UK and Canadian markets. Around 1960,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  and probably related to the change in scale, Fleischmann stopped making
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  what they referred to as "American Style" trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  I was in Germany throughout the 50s and 60s in the US military. GIs
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  were equally comfortable purchasing either American or German style HO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  trains from Fleischmann, Marklin and also TT gauge from Rokal which
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  was quite popular, prevalent and inexpensive. In those days modern day
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  N scale had not yet come of age, and was still "far" into the future....
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  (although we did have Arnold N scale-sized unpowered metal trains at
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  the time which were sold mostly as toys, and not as models).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  It should also be noted that both Fleischmann and Marklin trains were
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  available to GIs in US military PX outlets, usually in the toy 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
departments.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  In 1959, a Marklin passenger train set, consisting of a German DB 4-6-2,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  and 3 metal passengers cars, small AC transformer and an oval of 3 rail
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  or 2 rail/1 stud AC track in a maroon (dark red) box sold at the PX for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
$20.00
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  The loco included a tender; the 3 passenger cars were usually a red Diner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  marked "DSG", a green coach (DB), and a dark blue sleeper, all with 4
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  wheel trucks and the car sides being made of painted, stamped metal.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  FYI, in later years, in the US Army, I was able to visit the production
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  facilties of Marklin in Goeppingen and Fleischmann at Nurnburg. More
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  on the visits later, if there is interest.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
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  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.86/2533 - Release Date: 11/28/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
19:34:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12501
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 11/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What have you been up to/Tru-Scale/Chris... [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have one of the Tru-Scale double turnouts that I've never found a place to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
use.  I'd offer it to the group, but over the years the roadbed has warped 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
so badly I don't think it's useable anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 7:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What have you been up to/Tru-Scale/Chris... [4 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(Text bobbitted)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Truscale double turnouts were the other thing I knew nothing about.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
acquired a used one that is in the photos before I really knew what I had.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Since then I managed to get three mint unused pairs of Truscale double 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
turnouts, two in the unopened original plastic wrap packaging, and that was 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
all I needed to really build the layout I'd been planning for the past year.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The Tru Scale double turnout in one of those pictures was a similar flash - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'd never seen one before and hadn't noticed them in the literature.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
When one of the batches I won on ebay included a double turnout, I couldn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
believe it - I didn't know I could buy something I needed for my double 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
track layout plan, something I'd always assumed I'd have to kitbash out of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
two turnouts and a 12 degree crossing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12502
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 11/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> As I recall, there was actually some just the opposite. Several European
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> manufacturers actually made some of their lowest priced "HO" models as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> small
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> as 1:100 scale. I also remember some early Wiking automobile models 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> marked
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 1:96.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
maybe this were trucks , buses or construction equipment - while I dont 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
remember that Wiking did this, Lesney / Matchbox definitely did... their 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
passenger cars were definitely oversize for HO , while vans ( they had a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
few nice ones, of British prototype) were ok, and large trucks very 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
undersized. However we didnt care then, and I dont think they were 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
intended to be scale models.  With time, I took those cars most obvious 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
over or undersized from the layout and kept only the vans.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Wiking were rarely offered here - think this has to do with customs 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
fees, Germany was inthe EU (EWG) then so Wiking was subject to import 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
taxes while England was , like Austria, in the EFTA trade  union , so 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Matchbox was sold everywhere.  Had a few Wiking models, the first ones 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
still had bodies with solid windows, later they came with glazing. Wish 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I still would have them.... but an attic fire and younger brothers too 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
care of them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12503
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 11/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: What have you been up to/Tru-Scale/Chris...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have one of the Tru-Scale double turnouts that I've never found a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> place to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> use. I'd offer it to the group, but over the years the roadbed has warped
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> so badly I don't think it's useable anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Have built my medium size ( 15X12ft ) layout with Tru-Scale turnouts 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
exclusively, basically I am happy with them - they look good, have no 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
dead spots and no gaps... the down side is that I spent much more time 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
fiddling with them than expected. Some warped ones, some shrunk so gauge 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
was to tight... and I took apart all the points (the whole moving center 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
piece) and rebuilt them so the clearance between point and "through" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
rail is larger... often had shorts when the back of a flange touched the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
point, especially with long wheelbase steamers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12504
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 11/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  luvprr@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Thanks for your definitive explanation of the Flesichmann scenario.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The "missing link" (in my mind) of the desirability to many older 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Americans of that equipment was made by your observation that they were 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> available in the PX for servicemen. The nostalgia would be inescapable 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> as a result, and their slightly larger size and better quality would 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> explain how mint sets of these things consistently go for big bucks on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> eBay today.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Previously I couldn't quite figure out how that particular foreign 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> make of American style trains could quicken the pulses of so many 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> people. The closest I ever came to something similar was while in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Air Force and serving stateside in the peacetime Fifties. I saw a new, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> brass, articulated loco in a model railroad magazine for $100 (really 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> big money for a young guy) and had the urge to splurge on it--but never 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> did. Of course I wish I had now and would have treasured it all these years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      As a similar experience, while I was in the Navy my ship spent 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
several days laying over at the U.S. Navy base in Yokosuka, Japan. One 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
day, on liberty, I took the train up to Tokyo to search in camera stores 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
for a special lens. (A 50-300mm zoom that Nikon made.) I did find, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
buy, the lens, and quite by accident stumbled upon the Tenshodo store.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    I took a look at what they had to offer but didn't buy anything. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don't recall now most of what I saw or whether I had the money left over 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
from the purchase of the lens to buy any models, but one thing that does 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
stick in my mind was a set of passenger cars in GN Big Sky Blue paint. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
As I was not particularly interested in passenger trains at the time I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
passed on it (if I was able to afford it), but wish now that I had 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
bought it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    Unrelated to trains but still of interest, it was a rather drizzly 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
day when I got to Tokyo. At one point a gentleman that had just exited a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
store motioned to me. He had apparently just purchased a new umbrella 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
for himself and he offered his old one to me. I've never forgotten that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
bit of generosity.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
You will never find anybody who can give you a clear and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
compelling reason why we observe Daylight Savings Time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12505
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 11/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Varney Utility Coaches
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi, all,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Today, as long as my lower back and right knee are acting up real bad (Due to weather), I am sitting here working on repainting and fixing up some old Varney utility coaches. So far, I have repainted, detailed, and put Central Valley trucks on four cars- one combine, three chair cars.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Does anyone have any information on if these were indeed based on a CNW prototype, as I have heard they are?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They are similar to what I have seen in old Lucias Beebe (Spelling correct?) books, and perhaps this is why these kinds of cars are special to me. I live in Waukegan, Illinois, where these cars would run from Chicago in commuter scoots before the intruduction of bilevels.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Also, anyone know of a good vintage CNW 4-4-2 or 4-6-0 to run with these. Doesn't have to be 100% accurate, but should be OK with the 3-foot rule. I am thinking GHC's
 might be close, but both of my GHC 4-4-2s need help. Serious help.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12506
						From: Chris B
						Date: 11/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: What have you been up to/Tru-Scale double turnout warp
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don, the first used one I bought is also badly warped, but the brass is pretty good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've had some success over the years taking warps out of similar thin stock, the std practice is to cut multiple shallow grooves in the back side, in this case the warp is perpendicular to the rails, so you would cut grooves on the back, parallel with the rails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The warped piece is then clamped and glued down to a flat piece of 1/4" lumber core birch plywood.  If there's enough thickness available on the warped piece, sometimes you add short small screws through the warped piece and the first layer of plywood into a second piece of flat 3/4" birch plywood.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you use hi-tech marine hot glue or marine epoxy made for woodworking, and if you're lucky, after a day or two you can take out the
 screws, and unclamp the whole thing, and you have a warped piece that's been forced back to flat against its will.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The cut grooves usually can provide enough slack in the warp to let the remaining wood bend till it's flat without breaking.  not always, but usually.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  if the glue holds between the warped piece and the 1/4" plywood for the first day or two, it should hold for decades.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I lucked into buying these three pairs of mint unused double turnouts, I noticed that one pair was also warped, the pair no longer in the original shrink wrap.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  but the other two pairs were dead flat, and whaddya know, when I turned them over, TruScale had changed their manufacturing process and cut 4 long shallow grooves in the back side parallel with the rails.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  So the method described above is what I'm going to try with the three warped switches I have.  If you are at all interested in sellinig or trading that one double
 turnout you mentioned, it would be a big help, my track plan calls for 8 in all, and so far I've got 7.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If not, that's fine, if I can't fix the warped ones, I'll do what I planned to do all along, that is, kitbash double turnouts with two singles and a twelve degree crossing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sun, November 29, 2009 9:51:09 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What have you been up
 to/Tru-Scale/Chris...

                                                                                                                                                                                                  







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have one of the Tru-Scale double turnouts that I've never found a place to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
use.  I'd offer it to the group, but over the years the roadbed has warped 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
so badly I don't think it's useable anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 7:04 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What have you been up to/Tru-Scale/ Chris... [4 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(Text bobbitted)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Truscale double turnouts were the other thing I knew nothing about.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
acquired a used one that is in the photos before I really knew what I had.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Since then I managed to get three mint unused pairs of Truscale double 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
turnouts, two in the unopened original plastic wrap packaging, and that was 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
all I needed to really build the layout I'd been planning for the past year.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The Tru Scale double turnout in one of those pictures was a similar flash - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'd never seen one before and hadn't noticed them in the literature.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
When one of the batches I won on ebay included a double turnout, I couldn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
believe it - I didn't know I could buy something I needed for my double 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
track layout plan, something I'd always assumed I'd have to kitbash out of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
two turnouts and a 12 degree crossing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     





                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12507
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 11/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: What have you been up to
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  This sounds like an interesting project
and I look forward to more progress photos.  Your goal is different,, but
should be a nice looking job when done.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
 vintageHO @yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO @yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009
10:48 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO @yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [PHISH]Re: [
 vintageHO ] What have you been up to [ Attachments]
[6 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   




                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck, and all, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've also got my second level framing up and working on the third level. 
I've been able to start work again since my tendonitis has calmed down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
While I was laid up I managed to collect enough Truscale and Tenshodo to
complete all three levels with double track mainline and pretty accurate models
of the W&OD track plans at Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct VA in the forties. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've attached a few pictures of the layout room and of some of the track
sections.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The next step in the grand plan is to neatly skin all three levels with 1/4''
luan plywood, then start laying down cork and TruScale and Tenshodo wooden
roadbed with brass rails. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
When that's done, and the grades between the three levels are running smoothly,
(there goes another year<g>) then I'll replace the foam grades with
basswood spline, and slap more neatly cut 1/4" luan plywood up as curved
backdrops and fascia.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Then working from the top down, doing one side of the room at a time, I'll mask
all the brass rail with tape or oil or wax, and lay down a decent sturdy clear
furniture grade finish on all three levels of natural luan deck, as well as the
roadbed, the basswood spline, and the luan backdrop.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  








 




                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12508
						From: ottsm
						Date: 11/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: American Flyer HO couplers
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyone know were to get the early style coupler for American Flyer Pre-war HO sets?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
They don't seem to have them at RFG and I don't remember where I got the last ones that I purchased.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12509
						From: WK2SHR@aol.com
						Date: 11/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fleischmann -- was: Re: Penn Line, an interesting find.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Rick J:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Nothing really new to add to your comment, except that in the late 50s --
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
1958, 59 or so, $20.00 back then was like $200.00 today. I thought it
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
was a LOT of money, considering what things cost: an example.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Globe HO F-7A unit, kit, unpowered, plastic: 98 cents, new
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Revell plastic model DC-7C "Swissair", about 98 cents in a Drug Store
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
model counter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
AMT plastic model autos: $1.50 (expensive!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
When I joined the Army, "starting pay" was just $65.00 per month!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(now, it's over $1500). Smokes were 15 cents a pack, and bottle of Coke
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
out of the machine was just 10 cents....(yeah, times have changed!).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Same loco today can't be had new, but if you find it at a train meet,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
someone will want at least $20.00 for it. ha
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I still have ALL of the models mentioned above....and the DC-7C has NEVER
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
been assembled, still new, in box.....(prices out at almost $50.00 today
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
in the model plastic airplane collectors market).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Stay well,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12510
						From: Dale Smith
						Date: 11/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: American Flyer HO couplers
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


  
  

 
You might try Triple S Supplies at www.ssstrains.com.  Tom Seccia
stocks some Flyer HO parts.  Portlines.com is also another possible
source, but I didn't see any HO couplers listed on his site.   Good
Luck.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dale Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
ottsm wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Anyone know were to get the early style coupler for American Flyer
Pre-war HO sets?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
They don't seem to have them at RFG and I don't remember where I got
the last ones that I purchased.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12511
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: M. I. A. ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mr. Plainsman  ( W Jay W ),
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I am starting to 
wonder if all is alright on your end. I was use to your numerous and helpful 
comments concerning so many HO items.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      While this is slightly off topic 
your participation is always valuable and missed. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12512
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 12/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: M. I. A. ?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks, Jim H.  A combination of too many meetings the past few weeks, too much turkey the past few days :o)  This afternoon after returning from one meeting, moving some furniture into the town's circa 1970 railroad station we have nearly completed restoration of as the Town's museum, and meeting back there tonight at 7:00. I have been following many threads like on Ideal and Fleishmann and made a few good finds at the big Allentown First Frost show a few weeks ago that I have to report including an very old brass boiler, turned, not cast, which I found. Also fun to spot useful things such as the cast weight for a narrow frame hobbytown of Boston drive chassis that I've needed instead of stuffing it with lead.  It is satisfying to be able to have another old unit restored and complete. I also have to rearrange my desk piled with research materals and refile.  Will "hop aboard the next local!"  Thanks.  W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Mr. Plainsman  ( W Jay W ),
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>       I am starting to wonder if all is alright on your end. I was use to your numerous and helpful comments concerning so many HO items.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     While this is slightly off topic your participation is always valuable and missed. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                                          Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12513
						From: rcjge
						Date: 12/2/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: varney Super Consolie Shell
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi guys:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Does anyone know if their are any differences between the Varney Super Consolie Shell and the Economy Consolie?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gareth
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12514
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/3/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: varney Super Consolie Shell
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gareth,  No, there's no difference in boilers between the Heavy Economy Consol and the Super Heavy Consol.  They both use the same No. 1851-C (Drilled & Tapped) Boiler.  If that can't be located, the No. 1851 Boiler may be substituted but you need to do your own machine work on it.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12515
						From: Chris B
						Date: 12/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: natural finish wood roadbed and layout deck and backdrops
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck, how's your layout going? I've finalized a track plan, and finished the framing for the lower level return loop.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've built two short false walls to support the end of the three levels on both sides of the layout room as you enter, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the idea is to support all three levels as cantilevered shelves without any visible means of support between the false walls and the end wall with the fireplace. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I plan to hide the false walls from the outside with some floor to ceiling, natural finish louvered shutter doors that I got on craigslist, there's enough of them to go all the way across the layout room, so the ones in the middle will be hinged to fold back against the return loops to serve as entrance doors.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  On the inside I'll sheathe the false walls and the
 backdrop areas with the same luan as the decks, but with the grain running vertically like the back of a book case.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I threw some luan and tenshodo track down on the return loop framing as soon as I took the clamps off, just to get an idea of what it might look like.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sun, November 29, 2009 2:19:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] What have you been up to

                                                                                                                                                                                                  







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  






                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  This sounds like an interesting project
and I look forward to more progress photos.  Your goal is different,, but
should be a nice looking job when done.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: vintageHO @yahoogroups. com [mailto: vintageHO @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009
10:48 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO @yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [PHISH]Re: [ vintageHO ] What have you been up to [ Attachments]
[6 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   




                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck, and all, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've also got my second level framing up and working on the third level. 
I've been able to start work again since my tendonitis has calmed down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
While I was laid up I managed to collect enough Truscale and Tenshodo to
complete all three levels with double track mainline and pretty accurate models
of the W&OD track plans at Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct VA in the forties. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've attached a few pictures of the layout room and of some of the track
sections.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The next step in the grand plan is to neatly skin all three levels with 1/4''
luan plywood, then start laying down cork and TruScale and Tenshodo wooden
roadbed with brass rails. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
When that's done, and the grades between the three levels are running smoothly,
(there goes another year<g>) then I'll replace the foam grades with
basswood spline, and slap more neatly cut 1/4" luan plywood up as curved
backdrops and fascia.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Then working from the top down, doing one side of the room at a time, I'll mask
all the brass rail with tape or oil or wax, and lay down a decent sturdy clear
furniture grade finish on all three levels of natural luan deck, as well as the
roadbed, the basswood spline, and the luan backdrop.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  














    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     





                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12516
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 12/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: natural finish wood roadbed and layout deck and backdrops [5 Att
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chris and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am gluing up the last of the first level
frame work.  I have some 45 degree notching to do, but hope to have it
done tonight.  Then I have a short section to build at the other end of
the layout for a staging area.  Then put the framing wood away and start
to cut the plywood for the decking.  No photos yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris, from the photos you attached I see
a plan coming together.  Always nice when that happens.  You look to
be doing well with your project.  Thanks for the photos.  The
louvered doors also sound interesting for a wall.  Neat project.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009
12:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] natural
finish wood roadbed and layout deck and backdrops [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   




                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck, how's your layout going? I've finalized a track
plan, and finished the framing for the lower level return loop.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've built two short false walls to support the end of the three levels on both
sides of the layout room as you enter, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the idea is to support all three levels as cantilevered shelves without any
visible means of support between the false walls and the end wall with the
fireplace. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I plan to hide the false walls from the outside with some floor to ceiling,
natural finish louvered shutter doors that I got on craigslist, there's enough
of them to go all the way across the layout room, so the ones in the middle
will be hinged to fold back against the return loops to serve as entrance
doors.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
On the inside I'll sheathe the false walls and the backdrop areas with the same
luan as the decks, but with the grain running vertically like the back of a
book case.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I threw some luan and tenshodo track down on the return loop framing as soon as
I took the clamps off, just to get an idea of what it might look like.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  







 




                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12517
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 12/6/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Sunday's Train Show Finds : brass wedge plow
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi All,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Nothing like a good train show to beat the early December chill of a fresh snowfall, and even a smaller show can produce new finds.  Halfway though the aisles, spotted a few cartons on a table with a well used Athearn passenger car set in a plastic freezer bag in front, as if saying, over here!  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I bit and glanced in the first box. The usual grubby F-untis, some diesel trucks and something gray right in front.  A painted brass wedge snowplow marked "JAPAN" near one bolster!  Nothing missing or broken, it did not leave my hand except for a buddy to look it over. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
It resembles the one picured on page 33 of Kemtron catalog #5 which though undated is from the late 1950's I believe, or early 1960's. Do not know much more about it or if other firms imported the same or similar models yet - have seen photos a few other places as well over the years - anyone have more into? What could be better than finding that plow on a snow day?  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Looked some more in the same box and found a late 1960's brass Walthers gas electric/traction/m.u. car drive truck, good condition, with sideframes which can be used to motorize one of my later cars.  After paying for them, I received change back from my Andy Jackson, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
At the show, also found a John English Alco FB casting in excellent shape, after adding trucks I will have an all John English A-B-B-A lash up (only two powered, so far) that took quite a while to assemble, as those B-units seem hard to find.  Will paint them in the black and yellow first Erie-Lackawanna freight scheme of the eary 1960's when my painting resumes in the spring. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12518
						From: Chris B
						Date: 12/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: natural finish wood roadbed and layout deck and backdrops
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck, that's always a great step in projects, when you can switch tools and materials to the next stage! 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I like the all thread hangers for your decks, I'm looking forward to seeing how it looks when the decks are all framed and the plywood's in.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The hangars are a different solution I haven't seen before, but the same goal, no legs! 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Are you planning storage under the decks, or did you just want to avoid all the lumber and legs below?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sun, December 6, 2009 4:06:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] natural finish wood roadbed and layout deck and backdrops

                                                                                                                                                                                                  







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  






                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chris and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am gluing up the last of the first level
frame work.  I have some 45 degree notching to do, but hope to have it
done tonight.  Then I have a short section to build at the other end of
the layout for a staging area.  Then put the framing wood away and start
to cut the plywood for the decking.  No photos yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris, from the photos you attached I see
a plan coming together.  Always nice when that happens.  You look to
be doing well with your project.  Thanks for the photos.  The
louvered doors also sound interesting for a wall.  Neat project.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009
12:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] natural
finish wood roadbed and layout deck and backdrops [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   




                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck, how's your layout going? I've finalized a track
plan, and finished the framing for the lower level return loop.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've built two short false walls to support the end of the three levels on both
sides of the layout room as you enter, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the idea is to support all three levels as cantilevered shelves without any
visible means of support between the false walls and the end wall with the
fireplace. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I plan to hide the false walls from the outside with some floor to ceiling,
natural finish louvered shutter doors that I got on craigslist, there's enough
of them to go all the way across the layout room, so the ones in the middle
will be hinged to fold back against the return loops to serve as entrance
doors.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
On the inside I'll sheathe the false walls and the backdrop areas with the same
luan as the decks, but with the grain running vertically like the back of a
book case.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I threw some luan and tenshodo track down on the return loop framing as soon as
I took the clamps off, just to get an idea of what it might look like.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  













    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     





                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12519
						From: Thomas Donahue
						Date: 12/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Brass Japanese Switcher?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I followed this auction on eBay:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Item # 330382804484,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  and want to know what the locomotive is.  Generic? Japanese prototype?  Just curious...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Tom Donahue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Melbourne, FL US
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sun, November 29, 2009 2:19:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] What have you been up to

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  This sounds like an interesting project and I look forward to more progress photos.  Your goal is different,, but should be a nice looking job when done.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: vintageHO @yahoogroups. com [mailto: vintageHO @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 10:48 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO @yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [PHISH]Re: [ vintageHO ] What have you been up to [ Attachments] [6 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck, and all, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've also got my second level framing up and working on the third level.  I've been able to start work again since my tendonitis has calmed down.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  While I was laid up I managed to collect enough Truscale and Tenshodo to complete all three levels with double track mainline and pretty accurate models of the W&OD track plans at Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct VA in the forties.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've attached a few pictures of the layout room and of some of the track sections.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The next step in the grand plan is to neatly skin all three levels with 1/4'' luan plywood, then start laying down cork and TruScale and Tenshodo wooden roadbed with brass rails. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  When that's done, and the grades between the three levels are running smoothly, (there goes another year<g>) then I'll replace the foam grades with basswood spline, and slap
 more neatly cut 1/4" luan plywood up as curved backdrops and fascia.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Then working from the top down, doing one side of the room at a time, I'll mask all the brass rail with tape or oil or wax, and lay down a decent sturdy clear furniture grade finish on all three levels of natural luan deck, as well as the roadbed, the basswood spline, and the luan backdrop.  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12520
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 12/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Brass Japanese Switcher?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thomas Donahue wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I followed this auction on eBay:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-BRASS-GHC-0-6-0-SIDE-TAN-LOCOMOTIVE-JAPAN_W0QQitemZ330382804484 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Item # 330382804484,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and want to know what the locomotive is.  Generic? Japanese prototype?  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Just curious...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I think PFM imported a similar model at one time, and the prototype 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
for that one was Japanese.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
every six months."
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    -Oscar Wilde
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12521
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 12/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Brass Japanese Switcher?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Thomas,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I can not say for sure, but it definately does not look american in its design origin. I would guess either european or Japanese. I would bet that it is designed after a prototype or at least would share the characteristics of several in a line of prototypes as it would have been customary for any railroad to customize a particular locomotive based on its particular needs and uses. A builder such as Lima or any other would then supply them with the base model. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I bt if you did a internet search for european / japanese shifters / switchers / 0-6-0's and such, you might find one very close. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Thomas Donahue <tadonahue@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 12:04:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Brass Japanese Switcher?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I followed this auction on eBay:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Item # 330382804484,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  and want to know what the locomotive is.  Generic? Japanese prototype?  Just curious...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Tom Donahue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Melbourne, FL US
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@verizon. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sun, November 29, 2009 2:19:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] What have you been up to

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  This sounds like an interesting project and I look forward to more progress photos.  Your goal is different,, but should be a nice looking job when done.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: vintageHO @yahoogroups. com [mailto: vintageHO @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 10:48 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO @yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [PHISH]Re: [ vintageHO ] What have you been up to [ Attachments] [6 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck, and all, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've also got my second level framing up and working on the third level.  I've been able to start work again since my tendonitis has calmed down.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  While I was laid up I managed to collect enough Truscale and Tenshodo to complete all three levels with double track mainline and pretty accurate models of the W&OD track plans at Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct VA in the forties.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've attached a few pictures of the layout room and of some of the track sections.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The next step in the grand plan is to neatly skin all three levels with 1/4'' luan plywood, then start laying down cork and TruScale and Tenshodo wooden roadbed with brass rails. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  When that's done, and the grades between the three levels are running smoothly, (there goes another year<g>) then I'll replace the foam grades with basswood spline, and slap
 more neatly cut 1/4" luan plywood up as curved backdrops and fascia.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Then working from the top down, doing one side of the room at a time, I'll mask all the brass rail with tape or oil or wax, and lay down a decent sturdy clear furniture grade finish on all three levels of natural luan deck, as well as the roadbed, the basswood spline, and the luan backdrop.  




                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12522
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 12/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: natural finish wood roadbed and layout deck and backdrops
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  HI Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I do not want the legs and all.  This
seems to be the least obvious method of support.  I have seen it before and
when I have mentioned to others, they had not even seen the rods until I
mentioned it.  So I know it can be made to almost disappear.  There will be
some storage, but the visual effect is the goal.  Well I better get to it, as I
have sat here to long tonight.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009
4:59 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] natural
finish wood roadbed and layout deck and backdrops
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   




                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck, that's always a great step in projects, when you
can switch tools and materials to the next stage! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I like the all thread hangers for your decks, I'm looking forward to seeing how
it looks when the decks are all framed and the plywood's in.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The hangars are a different solution I haven't seen before, but the same goal,
no legs! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Are you planning storage under the decks, or did you just want to avoid all the
lumber and legs below?
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Chuck Higdon
<vze5crrw1@verizon. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sun, December 6, 2009
4:06:17 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] natural
finish wood roadbed and layout deck and backdrops
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chris and all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am gluing up the last of the first level frame work.  I have
some 45 degree notching to do, but hope to have it done tonight.  Then I
have a short section to build at the other end of the layout for a staging
area.  Then put the framing wood away and start to cut the plywood for the
decking.  No photos yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris, from the photos you attached I see a plan coming
together.  Always nice when that happens.  You look to be doing well
with your project.  Thanks for the photos.  The louvered doors also
sound interesting for a wall.  Neat project.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots.
com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009
12:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] natural finish
wood roadbed and layout deck and backdrops [5 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi
Chuck, how's your layout going? I've finalized a track plan, and finished the
framing for the lower level return loop.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've built two short false walls to support the end of the three levels on both
sides of the layout room as you enter, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the idea is to support all three levels as cantilevered shelves without any
visible means of support between the false walls and the end wall with the
fireplace. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I plan to hide the false walls from the outside with some floor to ceiling,
natural finish louvered shutter doors that I got on craigslist, there's enough
of them to go all the way across the layout room, so the ones in the middle
will be hinged to fold back against the return loops to serve as entrance
doors.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
On the inside I'll sheathe the false walls and the backdrop areas with the same
luan as the decks, but with the grain running vertically like the back of a
book case.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I threw some luan and tenshodo track down on the return loop framing as soon as
I took the clamps off, just to get an idea of what it might look like.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12523
						From: Dst8596587@aol.com
						Date: 12/7/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Brass Japanese Switcher?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Tank engines, those engines that carried the water on the engine rather then in a tender, were not uncommon around the turn of the century  (1900 that is). Most of the ones that we recognize are the saddle tank type around the boiler, such as the old  B & O docksider of Varney fame. However there were examples of the side saddle type built by companies like Porter for special purposes such as dock work that resembled the GHQ model. Perhaps the most famous of this type tank engine, from a HO standpoint, is the old AHM side tank engine, which was based on a Erie railroad prototype. ,Many railroads converted old 0-6-0 and 0-4-0 switchers to tank type for use around the roundhouse, pulling and pushing dead steamers on and off the turntable bridge. They were configured this way to hold the length down. Commercial engines such as these were  built to a particular buyers whim. All the tenshodo (PFM) models I have knowledge of, similar to the one being discussed, were diecast, although I will not deny that some may have been made of brass. I was informed at one time that the model was loosely based on a Central of Georgia prototype engine, but I would not bet the farm on it. Just the ramblings of an old 70+ year old modeler, take it with a grain of salt or a slug of whatever (your choice) and have a merry Christmas season.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Thomas Donahue <tadonahue@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Mon, Dec 7, 2009 11:04 am
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Brass Japanese Switcher?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I followed this auction on eBay:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  






                                                                                                                                                                                                  Item # 330382804484,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  and want to know what the locomotive is.  Generic? Japanese prototype?  Just curious...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Tom Donahue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Melbourne, FL US
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@verizon. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sun, November 29, 2009 2:19:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] What have you been up to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  This sounds like an interesting project and I look forward to more progress photos.  Your goal is different,, but should be a nice looking job when done.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: vintageHO @yahoogroups. com [mailto: vintageHO @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 10:48 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO @yahoogroups. com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [PHISH]Re: [ vintageHO ] What have you been up to [ Attachments] [6 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chuck, and all, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've also got my second level framing up and working on the third level.  I've been able to start work again since my tendonitis has calmed down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
While I was laid up I managed to collect enough Truscale and Tenshodo to complete all three levels with double track mainline and pretty accurate models of the W&OD track plans at Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct VA in the forties.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I've attached a few pictures of the layout room and of some of the track sections.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The next step in the grand plan is to neatly skin all three levels with 1/4'' luan plywood, then start laying down cork and TruScale and Tenshodo wooden roadbed with brass rails. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
When that's done, and the grades between the three levels are running smoothly, (there goes another year<g>) then I'll replace the foam grades with basswood spline, and slap more neatly cut 1/4" luan plywood up as curved backdrops and fascia.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Then working from the top down, doing one side of the room at a time, I'll mask all the brass rail with tape or oil or wax, and lay down a decent sturdy clear furniture grade finish on all three levels of natural luan deck, as well as the roadbed, the basswood spline, and the luan backdrop.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12524
						From: Matthew
						Date: 12/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Brass Japanese Switcher?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Tom,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
This is one of the GHC brass locomotives that they imported along with their die-cast series. The builders were a group of builders in Tokyo (and nearby cities). This group eventually became United/Tenshodo. The business arrangement is way too complex to cover, but they were a series of small shops that produced a variety of completed locomotives or specific parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
This loco was done both in die-cast and in brass. The prototype was from Baldwin for one of the railroads in Japan before the consolidation into the JNR. It was 3'-6" gauge and the model appears to built to the scale of 1:80 or 1:76 so it could run on HO track but still have some of the feel and proportions of a Narrow gauge loco.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
PFM brought in a couple of variations of this loco for the US market and one of the builders even did a few for Ken Kidder and later NWSL in their early years.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have a GHC brass "Ma & Pa" 2-8-0 and two of their die-cast versions of the same loco. Built by different builders, but still very close in overall dimension.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
There are a couple of people on this list who know infinitely more than I do about the early brass and die-cast imports from Japan and perhaps they can shed more light. I just happen to like the GHC imports and try to learn what I can about them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Matt Coleman
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Donahue <tadonahue@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I followed this auction on eBay:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-BRASS-GHC-0-6-0-SIDE-TAN-LOCOMOTIVE-JAPAN_W0QQitemZ330382804484%c3%82%c2%a0
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Item # 330382804484,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and want to know what the locomotive is.  Generic? Japanese prototype?  Just curious...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Tom Donahue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Melbourne, FL US
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12525
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 12/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Brass Japanese Switcher?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm agreeing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
This is very much like the bread and butter industrial locomotive   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
production of Porter. I see it's a model from the era of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Aristocraft imports, if not before then.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
You mention the roundhouse switcher conversions. I've always found  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
those to be so creatively ugly as to be really appealing. Most of  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
those seem to be ordinary 0-6-0 switchers that get completely non- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
standard fuel and water bunkers around the boiler that completely  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
change the look of the original locomotive. They rarely look like a  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
factory saddle-tank engine and have a distinctive charm to an truly  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
industrial machine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
as an example.........
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://espee.railfan.net/nonindex/steam-01/0564a_sp-steam-shop- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
switcher-byron_bostwick.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
OR... http://tinyurl.com/y8hsbna
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
or.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://espee.railfan.net/sp_steam_shop-switchers.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I swear every time I see one of these, I think of what can be done  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
with an cast-off swap meet HO switcher that lost it's tender ages  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
ago.  What a great second life for a cast-off model!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   On Dec 7, 2009, at 11:08 PM, Dst8596587@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Tank engines, those engines that carried the water on the engine  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> rather then in a tender, were not uncommon around the turn of the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> century  (1900 that is). Most of the ones that we recognize are the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> saddle tank type around the boiler, such as the old  B & O  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> docksider of Varney fame. However there were examples of the side  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> saddle type built by companies like Porter for special purposes  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> such as dock work that resembled the GHQ model. Perhaps the most  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> famous of this type tank engine, from a HO standpoint, is the old  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> AHM side tank engine, which was based on a Erie railroad  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> prototype. ,Many railroads converted old 0-6-0 and 0-4-0 switchers  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> to tank type for use around the roundhouse, pulling and pushing  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> dead steamers on and off the turntable bridge. They were configured  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> this way to hold the length down. Commercial engines such as these  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> were  built to a particular buyers whim. All the tenshodo (PFM)  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> models I have knowledge of, similar to the one being discussed,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> were diecast, although I will not deny that some may have been made  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> of brass. I was informed at one time that the model was loosely  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> based on a Central of Georgia prototype engine, but I would not bet  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the farm on it. Just the ramblings of an old 70+ year old modeler,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> take it with a grain of salt or a slug of whatever (your choice)  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and have a merry Christmas season.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: Thomas Donahue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I followed this auction on eBay:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-BRASS-GHC-0-6-0-SIDE-TAN-LOCOMOTIVE- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> JAPAN_W0QQitemZ330382804484
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Item # 330382804484,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and want to know what the locomotive is.  Generic? Japanese  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> prototype?  Just curious...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Tom Donahue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Melbourne, FL US 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12526
						From: Thomas Donahue
						Date: 12/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Brass Japanese Switcher?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sorry for top-posting; I asked about an eBay brass switcher's prototype, and received a lot of great information (below), about both possible prototypes and possible manufacturers.  Thank you, very much for the amount of detailed information.  I took Sean's advice and googled locomotives to my heart's content (until I was squeezed off the computer by my wife).  Most Japanese switchers I found had shorter stacks and looked like British switchers in that their front windows were round, and the cab roof angle steeper.  I did find a Swiss 4-6-0 (they call it a 3/5, for the number of driving/axels) that had the same shape roof and windows.  I am still looking.  Thanks again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Tom Donahue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Melbourne, FL US
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tue, December 8, 2009 6:45:44 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Brass Japanese Switcher?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm agreeing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  This is very much like the bread and butter industrial locomotive 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  production of Porter. I see it's a model from the era of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Aristocraft imports, if not before then.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  You mention the roundhouse switcher conversions. I've always found 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  those to be so creatively ugly as to be really appealing. Most of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  those seem to be ordinary 0-6-0 switchers that get completely non- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  standard fuel and water bunkers around the boiler that completely 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  change the look of the original locomotive. They rarely look like a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  factory saddle-tank engine and have a distinctive charm to an truly 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  industrial machine.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  as an example..... ....

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://espee. railfan.net/ nonindex/ steam-01/ 0564a_sp- steam-shop- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  switcher-byron_ bostwick. jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                  OR... http://tinyurl. com/y8hsbna

                                                                                                                                                                                                  or.....

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://espee. railfan.net/ sp_steam_ shop-switchers. html

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I swear every time I see one of these, I think of what can be done 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  with an cast-off swap meet HO switcher that lost it's tender ages 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ago. What a great second life for a cast-off model!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee Wi, USA

                                                                                                                                                                                                   On Dec 7, 2009, at 11:08 PM, Dst8596587@aol. com wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Tank engines, those engines that carried the water on the engine 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > rather then in a tender, were not uncommon around the turn of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > century (1900 that is). Most of the ones that we recognize are the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > saddle tank type around the boiler, such as the old B & O
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > docksider of Varney fame. However there were examples of the side 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > saddle type built by companies like Porter for special purposes 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > such as dock work that resembled the GHQ model. Perhaps the most 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > famous of this type tank engine, from a HO standpoint, is the old 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > AHM side tank engine, which was based on a Erie railroad 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > prototype. ,Many railroads converted old 0-6-0 and 0-4-0 switchers 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > to tank type for use around the roundhouse, pulling and pushing 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > dead steamers on and off the turntable bridge. They were configured 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > this way to hold the length down. Commercial engines such as these 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > were built to a particular buyers whim. All the tenshodo (PFM) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > models I have knowledge of, similar to the one being discussed, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > were diecast, although I will not deny that some may have been made 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > of brass. I was informed at one time that the model was loosely
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > based on a Central of Georgia prototype engine, but I would not bet 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the farm on it. Just the ramblings of an old 70+ year old modeler, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > take it with a grain of salt or a slug of whatever (your choice) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and have a merry Christmas season.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: Thomas Donahue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I followed this auction on eBay:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://cgi.ebay. com/VINTAGE- BRASS-GHC- 0-6-0-SIDE- TAN-LOCOMOTIVE- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > JAPAN_W0QQitemZ3303 82804484
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Item # 330382804484,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > and want to know what the locomotive is. Generic? Japanese 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > prototype? Just curious...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Thank you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Tom Donahue
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Melbourne, FL US
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12527
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 12/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Brass Japanese Switcher?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dst8596587@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Tank engines, those engines that carried the water on the engine rather 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> then in a tender, were not uncommon around the turn of the century  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> (1900 that is). Most of the ones that we recognize are the saddle tank 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> type around the boiler, such as the old  B & O docksider of Varney fame. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> However there were examples of the side saddle type built by companies 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> like Porter for special purposes such as dock work that resembled the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> GHQ model. Perhaps the most famous of this type tank engine, from a HO 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> standpoint, is the old AHM side tank engine, which was based on a Erie 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> railroad prototype. ,Many railroads converted old 0-6-0 and 0-4-0 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> switchers to tank type for use around the roundhouse, pulling and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> pushing dead steamers on and off the turntable bridge. They were 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> configured this way to hold the length down. Commercial engines such as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> these were  built to a particular buyers whim.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have a Westside brass model of SP shop switcher #966, which has a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
somewhat odd configuration for a tank engine. It looks as though the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
tanks may have been added some years after the switcher was originally 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
built.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/sp966.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Keep staring ... I may do a trick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12528
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 12/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Brass Japanese Switcher?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I have a Westside brass model of SP shop switcher #966, which has a
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> somewhat odd configuration for a tank engine. It looks as though the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> tanks may have been added some years after the switcher was originally
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> built.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/sp966.jpg 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> <http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/sp966.jpg>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Rick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have it too - the scan of the respective G-File can be viewed at 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
hoseeker.net  - it gives a short history of the loco.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.hoseeker.net/westsideinformation/westside060switchersppg2.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12529
						From: Jim Waterman
						Date: 12/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Brass Japanese Switcher?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  This was imported by International Model Corp in 
the late 50's/early 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  When my father bought out the balance of Int'l 
Models inventory in 1963, he was selling these for $8.88 each.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hard to believe someone payed $100 for it. A very 
basic 0-6-0 saddle tank switcher. No castings, just turned domes and 
stack.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Had one of those vertical axis motors in the cab 
driving a worm gear. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12530
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Brass Japanese Switcher?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I believe that the SP management allowed each shop to outfit their own shop 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
switcher--966 was probably one of the largest--and was used at Bayshore 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Shops, San Francisco.  Los Angeles had a semi-streamlined one.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 2:20 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Brass Japanese Switcher?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dst8596587@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Tank engines, those engines that carried the water on the engine rather
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> then in a tender, were not uncommon around the turn of the century
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> (1900 that is). Most of the ones that we recognize are the saddle tank
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> type around the boiler, such as the old  B & O docksider of Varney fame.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> However there were examples of the side saddle type built by companies
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> like Porter for special purposes such as dock work that resembled the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> GHQ model. Perhaps the most famous of this type tank engine, from a HO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> standpoint, is the old AHM side tank engine, which was based on a Erie
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> railroad prototype. ,Many railroads converted old 0-6-0 and 0-4-0
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> switchers to tank type for use around the roundhouse, pulling and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> pushing dead steamers on and off the turntable bridge. They were
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> configured this way to hold the length down. Commercial engines such as
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> these were  built to a particular buyers whim.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>    I have a Westside brass model of SP shop switcher #966, which has a
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> somewhat odd configuration for a tank engine. It looks as though the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> tanks may have been added some years after the switcher was originally
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> built.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/sp966.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Keep staring ... I may do a trick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.98/2552 - Release Date: 12/08/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12531
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 12/8/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Brass Japanese Switcher?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim W., 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Was thinking of you and your father's Trackside Specialties this morning as 37 packages of Penn Line locomotive parts that he had packaged in bags with the yellow Trackside Specialties, Manville, NJ label were listed on eBay overnight. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Here is a link, hope it works:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://tinyurl.com/y9raxul
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Waterman" <Watermaj@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> This was imported by International Model Corp in the late 50's/early 60's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> When my father bought out the balance of Int'l Models inventory in 1963, he was selling these for $8.88 each.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hard to believe someone payed $100 for it. A very basic 0-6-0 saddle tank switcher. No castings, just turned domes and stack.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Had one of those vertical axis motors in the cab driving a worm gear. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12532
						From: Dale Smith
						Date: 12/10/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: New Website for American Flyer HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  



 
I just finished a new website for American Flyer HO trains.   It can be
reached at www.gilbertho.org.   It consists
of an illustrated database
based on the cataloged items, with links to the actual catalogs on the
website www.myflyertrains.org. 
The illustrations are taken from my own catalogs (which are also part
of the myflyertrains.org website) and other catalogs on that website,
by permission of the owner of that website.  There isn't a lot of
readily available literature on these trains, except Gilbert American
Flyer HO by Gary Klein, which is out of print, and the Standard Catalog
of American Flyer Trains, which doesn't cover the sets, which this
website does.  I hope you all will find this site useful when questions
arise concerning these trains.  It may also be an introduction to the
myflyertrains.org website and its extensive collection of A.C. Gilbert
catalogs, which is quite well known in the S gauge community.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dale Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12533
						From: RalphB
						Date: 12/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I sent Dale a note off-list, but I thought I'd let everyone know what I found.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
In going through Dale's web site, I found the Gilbert Gulf Oil tank car, mfg #500, reporting marks GRCX 5016.  I just happened to be going through one of my boxes of stored stuff yesterday and I had pulled my Gilbert tank car out, looked at it, and put it away again.  What struck me was that my car is a 3-dome car, not the single-dome illustrated on Dale's site; otherwise, it's identical.  Anyone know what's up?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Ralph B
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO, Dale Smith wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I just finished a new website for American Flyer HO trains.   It can be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> reached at www.gilbertho.org. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12534
						From: Raymond Lorts Sr
						Date: 12/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dale; I got Gilbert H.O. Flat car,just loving. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I had a Stroke.                                     Ray L

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Thu, 12/10/09, Dale Smith <dfsmith26@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Dale Smith <dfsmith26@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] New Website for American Flyer HO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Thursday, December 10, 2009, 10:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just finished a new website for American Flyer HO trains.   It can be reached at www.gilbertho. org.   It consists of an illustrated database based on the cataloged items, with links to the actual catalogs on the website www.myflyertrains. org.  The illustrations are taken from my own catalogs (which are also part of the myflyertrains. org website) and other catalogs on that website, by permission of the owner of that website.  There isn't a lot of readily available literature on these trains, except Gilbert American Flyer HO by Gary Klein, which is out of print, and the Standard Catalog of American Flyer Trains, which doesn't cover the sets, which this website does.  I hope you all will find this site useful when questions arise concerning these trains.  It may also be an introduction to the
 myflyertrains. org website and its extensive collection of A.C. Gilbert catalogs, which is quite well known in the S gauge community.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dale Smith


                                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12535
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 12/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: [HO] Hitler and DCC (youtube)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Guys, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  This really is hilarious........Hitler Goes DCC!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  This is hilarious.  I still have DC on my small 2-track layout.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=2umTTPFfiiY



                                                                                                                                                                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12536
						From: DOM ST.JOHN
						Date: 12/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello Gentlemen, my name is Dominic and I am a Gilbert HO collector and have been watching the posts here for a little while. As to the three dome Gulf tank car. Nothing unusual about it really. Gilbert had a three dome tank in both the three digit 511 and five digit 33511 versions. They're a nice car to have. I'm looking forward to the new Gilbert HO   website. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dom

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12537
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Does anybody know where to locate replacement dome tops for AF single-dome tanks?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have three tanks, need at least one top.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hello Gentlemen, my name is Dominic and I am a Gilbert HO collector and have been watching the posts here for a little while. As to the three dome Gulf tank car. Nothing unusual about it really. Gilbert had a three dome tank in both the three digit 511 and five digit 33511 versions. They're a nice car to have. I'm looking forward to the new Gilbert HO   website. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dom
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12538
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dale S,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Glad you posted your 
Gilbert / American Flyer web site to view. As a collector of all companies 
manufacturing HO from 1937-1977, including Gilbert / AF HO, it's always nice to 
be able to check out more information. I have the book by Gary Klein which is 
very good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I am fortunate to be very good 
friends with a person who supplied much information and pictures, along with 
proof reading, for Mr. Klein's book. I believe this man 
also happens to have the largest and most complete Gilbert / American Flyer 
HO collection including accessories and such that I know of. With all this 
combined information including the HO seeker site, past HOSC&H-SIG 
newsletters plus my own paperwork and pieces makes it a lot easier to 
research Gilbert / American Flyer HO history. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I also like where you mention on your 
site about not listing known uncataloged items as this can pertain to other 
companies. Catalogs are invaluable in keeping the history of vintage HO but I 
have found instances of items not cataloged that are now 
known but many probably still unknown. It is the search for these 
treasures that pushes me to want to learn more. My motto is "Never say 
never"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  Dale Smith 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 1:25 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] New Website for 
  American Flyer HO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just finished a new website for American Flyer HO trains.   It can 
  be reached at www.gilbertho. org.   
  It consists of an illustrated database based on the cataloged items, with 
  links to the actual catalogs on the website www.myflyertrains. org.  The illustrations are taken 
  from my own catalogs (which are also part of the myflyertrains. org 
  website) and other catalogs on that website, by permission of the owner of 
  that website.  There isn't a lot of readily available literature on these 
  trains, except Gilbert American Flyer HO by Gary Klein, which is out of print, 
  and the Standard Catalog of American Flyer Trains, which doesn't cover the 
  sets, which this website does.  I hope you all will find this site useful 
  when questions arise concerning these trains.  It may also be an 
  introduction to the myflyertrains. org website and its extensive 
  collection of A.C. Gilbert catalogs, which is quite well known in the S gauge 
  community.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dale Smith

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12539
						From: Dale Smith
						Date: 12/11/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


  

 
I limited myself to the catalogs for the simple reason that I did not
want to simply duplicate what is already published and in the process,
violate anyone's copyright.  I wanted to build this from primary
sources, such as the catalogs.   That is the starting point.   If any
of you wish to help me add to this effort by drawing on your personal
knowledge of various pieces, I will be glad to accept your help and
give you appropriate credit on the site.  Even if the site is not as
comprehensive as some other sources, it is handy and accessible. 
Consider it a work in progress.  I am sure it can and will improve over
time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dale
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
jim heckard wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dale S,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                       Glad you posted your Gilbert /
American Flyer web site to view. As a collector of all companies
manufacturing HO from 1937-1977, including Gilbert / AF HO, it's always
nice to be able to check out more information. I have the book by Gary
Klein which is very good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     I am fortunate to be very good
friends with a person who supplied much information and pictures, along
with proof reading, for Mr. Klein's book. I believe this man
also happens to have the largest and most complete Gilbert / American
Flyer HO collection including accessories and such that I know of. With
all this combined information including the HO seeker site, past
HOSC&H-SIG newsletters plus my own paperwork and pieces makes it a
lot easier to research Gilbert / American Flyer HO history. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     I also like where you mention on
your site about not listing known uncataloged items as this can pertain
to other companies. Catalogs are invaluable in keeping the history of
vintage HO but I have found instances of items not cataloged that are
now known but many probably still unknown. It is the search for these
treasures that pushes me to want to learn more. My motto is "Never say
never"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
    Dale Smith 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent:
Friday, December 11, 2009 1:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject:
[vintageHO] New Website for American Flyer HO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just finished a new website for American Flyer HO trains.   It
can be reached at www.gilbertho. org.   It consists of an illustrated
database based on the cataloged items, with links to the actual
catalogs on the website www.myflyertrains. org. 
The illustrations are taken from my own catalogs (which are also part
of the myflyertrains. org website) and other catalogs on that
website, by permission of the owner of that website.  There isn't a lot
of readily available literature on these trains, except Gilbert
American Flyer HO by Gary Klein, which is out of print, and the
Standard Catalog of American Flyer Trains, which doesn't cover the
sets, which this website does.  I hope you all will find this site
useful when questions arise concerning these trains.  It may also be an
introduction to the myflyertrains. org website and its extensive
collection of A.C. Gilbert catalogs, which is quite well known in the S
gauge community.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dale Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12540
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 12/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dale S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Just finished looking over your very informative Gilbert/AF HO website and it will be very useful as comprehensive accurate HO infomation did not seem to be available elsewhere on the web the last time I looked.   I had picked up the large published "Standard Catalog" by Doyle a year or so ago, and while that satisfied my needs for the S Gauge I started with as a kid, it was was not as complete as I would have liked on HO, so your effort is welcome.  A nice professional job!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Are you planning to expand it into accessories as time allows?  My favorites there are the "Paradise Diner" made up from one of their modern "American Flyer" type, actually Osgood-Bradley coaches, number 252, I believe, as wll as the Lackawanna bridges, being a DL&W/Erie fan.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dale Smith <dfsmith26@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I limited myself to the catalogs for the simple reason that I did not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> want to simply duplicate what is already published and in the process, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> violate anyone's copyright.  I wanted to build this from primary 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> sources, such as the catalogs.   That is the starting point.   If any of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> you wish to help me add to this effort by drawing on your personal 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> knowledge of various pieces, I will be glad to accept your help and give 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> you appropriate credit on the site.  Even if the site is not as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> comprehensive as some other sources, it is handy and accessible.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Consider it a work in progress.  I am sure it can and will improve over 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dale
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Dale S,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >      Glad you posted your Gilbert / American Flyer web site to view. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > As a collector of all companies manufacturing HO from 1937-1977, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > including Gilbert / AF HO, it's always nice to be able to check out 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > more information. I have the book by Gary Klein which is very good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >    I am fortunate to be very good friends with a person who supplied 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > much information and pictures, along with proof reading, for Mr. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Klein's book. I believe this man also happens to have the largest and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > most complete Gilbert / American Flyer HO collection including 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > accessories and such that I know of. With all this combined 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > information including the HO seeker site, past HOSC&H-SIG 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > newsletters plus my own paperwork and pieces makes it a lot easier to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > research Gilbert / American Flyer HO history.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >    I also like where you mention on your site about not listing known 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > uncataloged items as this can pertain to other companies. Catalogs are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > invaluable in keeping the history of vintage HO but I have found 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > instances of items not cataloged that are now known but many probably 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > still unknown. It is the search for these treasures that pushes me to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > want to learn more. My motto is "Never say never"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     *From:* Dale Smith <mailto:dfsmith26@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     *To:* vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     *Sent:* Friday, December 11, 2009 1:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     *Subject:* [vintageHO] New Website for American Flyer HO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     I just finished a new website for American Flyer HO trains.   It
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     can be reached at www.gilbertho.org.   It consists of an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     illustrated database based on the cataloged items, with links to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     the actual catalogs on the website www.myflyertrains.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     <http://www.myflyertrains.org>.  The illustrations are taken from
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     my own catalogs (which are also part of the myflyertrains.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     website) and other catalogs on that website, by permission of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     owner of that website.  There isn't a lot of readily available
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     literature on these trains, except Gilbert American Flyer HO by
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     Gary Klein, which is out of print, and the Standard Catalog of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     American Flyer Trains, which doesn't cover the sets, which this
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     website does.  I hope you all will find this site useful when
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     questions arise concerning these trains.  It may also be an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     introduction to the myflyertrains.org website and its extensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     collection of A.C. Gilbert catalogs, which is quite well known in
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     the S gauge community.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     Dale Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12541
						From: Dale Smith
						Date: 12/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


  
  

 
Jay,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Yes, I will expand it to accessories as soon as I can.   As long as it
was cataloged, I will try to include it.   I will also be adding
pictures of the actual items as soon as I can photograph my collection
and collect photos from others.  I will also be looking for better
catalog illustrations of some items.  Some of the scans I used were
sized for best viewing of whole pages.  I haven't made a list yet of
the pages I need, but I know the 38 or 39 catalogs had some very small
illustrations, when focused on the individual items.  I think this has
a lot of potential to grow and I welcome any assistance.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dale
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the_plainsman wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dale S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Just finished looking over your very informative Gilbert/AF HO website
and it will be very useful as comprehensive accurate HO infomation did
not seem to be available elsewhere on the web the last time I looked. I
had picked up the large published "Standard Catalog" by Doyle a year or
so ago, and while that satisfied my needs for the S Gauge I started
with as a kid, it was was not as complete as I would have liked on HO,
so your effort is welcome. A nice professional job!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Are you planning to expand it into accessories as time allows? My
favorites there are the "Paradise Diner" made up from one of their
modern "American Flyer" type, actually Osgood-Bradley coaches, number
252, I believe, as wll as the Lackawanna bridges, being a DL&W/Erie
fan.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
Dale Smith <dfsmith26@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I limited myself to the catalogs for the simple reason that I did
not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> want to simply duplicate what is already published and in the
process, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> violate anyone's copyright. I wanted to build this from primary 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> sources, such as the catalogs. That is the starting point. If any
of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> you wish to help me add to this effort by drawing on your personal
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> knowledge of various pieces, I will be glad to accept your help
and give 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> you appropriate credit on the site. Even if the site is not as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> comprehensive as some other sources, it is handy and accessible. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Consider it a work in progress. I am sure it can and will improve
over 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dale
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Dale S,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Glad you posted your Gilbert / American Flyer web site to
view. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > As a collector of all companies manufacturing HO from
1937-1977, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > including Gilbert / AF HO, it's always nice to be able to
check out 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > more information. I have the book by Gary Klein which is very
good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I am fortunate to be very good friends with a person who
supplied 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > much information and pictures, along with proof reading, for
Mr. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Klein's book. I believe this man also happens to have the
largest and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > most complete Gilbert / American Flyer HO collection
including 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > accessories and such that I know of. With all this combined 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > information including the HO seeker site, past HOSC&H-SIG
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > newsletters plus my own paperwork and pieces makes it a lot
easier to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > research Gilbert / American Flyer HO history.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I also like where you mention on your site about not listing
known 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > uncataloged items as this can pertain to other companies.
Catalogs are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > invaluable in keeping the history of vintage HO but I have
found 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > instances of items not cataloged that are now known but many
probably 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > still unknown. It is the search for these treasures that
pushes me to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > want to learn more. My motto is "Never say never"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > *From:* Dale Smith <mailto:dfsmith26@ ...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > *To:* vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
<mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > *Sent:* Friday, December 11, 2009 1:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > *Subject:* [vintageHO] New Website for American Flyer HO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I just finished a new website for American Flyer HO trains. It
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > can be reached at www.gilbertho. org. It consists of an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > illustrated database based on the cataloged items, with links
to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > the actual catalogs on the website www.myflyertrains. org
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > <http://www.myflyert rains.org>.
The illustrations are taken from
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > my own catalogs (which are also part of the myflyertrains. org
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > website) and other catalogs on that website, by permission of
the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > owner of that website. There isn't a lot of readily available
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > literature on these trains, except Gilbert American Flyer HO
by
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Gary Klein, which is out of print, and the Standard Catalog of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > American Flyer Trains, which doesn't cover the sets, which
this
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > website does. I hope you all will find this site useful when
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > questions arise concerning these trains. It may also be an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > introduction to the myflyertrains. org website and its
extensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > collection of A.C. Gilbert catalogs, which is quite well
known in
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > the S gauge community.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Dale Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12542
						From: Nelson B
						Date: 12/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for putting this site together, Dale. As you said, info is pretty scarce, so this should be a great resource. I started with Flyer S gauge as well, so I became very curious about their HO offerings later in life. I think their HO smoke units often produce more smoke than their S gauge cousins.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dale Smith <dfsmith26@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I just finished a new website for American Flyer HO trains.   It can be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> reached at www.gilbertho.org.   It consists of an illustrated database 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> based on the cataloged items, with links to the actual catalogs on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> website www.myflyertrains.org <http:www.myflyertrains.org>.  The 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> illustrations are taken from my own catalogs (which are also part of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> myflyertrains.org website) and other catalogs on that website, by 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> permission of the owner of that website.  There isn't a lot of readily 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> available literature on these trains, except Gilbert American Flyer HO 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> by Gary Klein, which is out of print, and the Standard Catalog of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> American Flyer Trains, which doesn't cover the sets, which this website 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> does.  I hope you all will find this site useful when questions arise 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> concerning these trains.  It may also be an introduction to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> myflyertrains.org website and its extensive collection of A.C. Gilbert 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> catalogs, which is quite well known in the S gauge community.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dale Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12543
						From: Chris B
						Date: 12/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dale, Great Site! It seems extremely well organized, and well designed to make the most of the other
available AF HO resources.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My current
roster of freight cars is all metal, but I'm especially
seeking unpainted cars, since my current project is to run unpainted
brass and diecast diesel engines pulling unpainted metal cars.

                                                                                                                                                                                                   I do
have some AF unpainted kit cars as well as several painted cars. I was able to determine in minutes exactly how
many variations of the die cast freight cars had been produced.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

Even though I stick to unpainted cars from every other maker, I'm still
happy to go on collecting painted AF diecast cars, and I'd really like
to have at least one example of all the different road names for all
the diecast cars.    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I spent my youth with a basement full of AF S gauge trains, all funded by my dear two-rail fan mother, who was into model trains enough to buy any yardsale or thrift shop postwar metal AF equipment she could find. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think it's some of why I'm so devoted to collecting and running all metal engines and rolling stock now.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I was young, AF HO held little interest for me, since the size of S gauge equipment made all HO seem too small. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  But I'll have to say really have come to enjoy collecting diecast AF HO rolling stock, since it meets the all-metal criteria for my current layout project, but it also fuels a nostalgic connection with the older metal AF trains I remember so fondly. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for doing all the work this must have taken, it's not just an AF
HO research tool, it's a great template for organizing similar
information from other mfgrs.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I work with data presentation web sites professionally, and spend too
much hobby time online looking at model railroad and railroad history
sites, both personal and professional.  It's always a treat to be
invited to a new site that is easy to use and filled with useful
content. Nice work! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.



                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sat, December 12, 2009 11:26:52 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New Website for American Flyer HO

                                                                                                                                                                                                  







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dale S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Just finished looking over your very informative Gilbert/AF HO website and it will be very useful as comprehensive accurate HO infomation did not seem to be available elsewhere on the web the last time I looked.   I had picked up the large published "Standard Catalog" by Doyle a year or so ago, and while that satisfied my needs for the S Gauge I started with as a kid, it was was not as complete as I would have liked on HO, so your effort is welcome.  A nice professional job!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Are you planning to expand it into accessories as time allows?  My favorites there are the "Paradise Diner" made up from one of their modern "American Flyer" type, actually Osgood-Bradley coaches, number 252, I believe, as wll as the Lackawanna bridges, being a DL&W/Erie fan.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Dale Smith <dfsmith26@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I limited myself to the catalogs for the simple reason that I did not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> want to simply duplicate what is already published and in the process, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> violate anyone's copyright.  I wanted to build this from primary 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> sources, such as the catalogs.   That is the starting point.   If any of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> you wish to help me add to this effort by drawing on your personal 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> knowledge of various pieces, I will be glad to accept your help and give 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> you appropriate credit on the site.  Even if the site is not as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> comprehensive as some other sources, it is handy and accessible.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Consider it a work in progress.  I am sure it can and will improve over 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dale
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Dale S,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >      Glad you posted your Gilbert / American Flyer web site to view. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > As a collector of all companies manufacturing HO from 1937-1977, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > including Gilbert / AF HO, it's always nice to be able to check out 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > more information. I have the book by Gary Klein which is very good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >    I am fortunate to be very good friends with a person who supplied 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > much information and pictures, along with proof reading, for Mr. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Klein's book. I believe this man also happens to have the largest and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > most complete Gilbert / American Flyer HO collection including 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > accessories and such that I know of. With all this combined 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > information including the HO seeker site, past HOSC&H-SIG 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > newsletters plus my own paperwork and pieces makes it a lot easier to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > research Gilbert / American Flyer HO history.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >    I also like where you mention on your site about not listing known 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > uncataloged items as this can pertain to other companies. Catalogs are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > invaluable in keeping the history of vintage HO but I have found 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > instances of items not cataloged that are now known but many probably 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > still unknown. It is the search for these treasures that pushes me to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > want to learn more. My motto is "Never say never"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     *From:* Dale Smith <mailto:dfsmith26@ ...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     *To:* vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     *Sent:* Friday, December 11, 2009 1:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     *Subject:* [vintageHO] New Website for American Flyer HO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     I just finished a new website for American Flyer HO trains.   It
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     can be reached at www.gilbertho. org.   It consists of an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     illustrated database based on the cataloged items, with links to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     the actual catalogs on the website www.myflyertrains. org
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     <http://www.myflyertrains.org>.  The illustrations are taken from
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     my own catalogs (which are also part of the myflyertrains. org
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     website) and other catalogs on that website, by permission of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     owner of that website.  There isn't a lot of readily available
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     literature on these trains, except Gilbert American Flyer HO by
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     Gary Klein, which is out of print, and the Standard Catalog of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     American Flyer Trains, which doesn't cover the sets, which this
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     website does.  I hope you all will find this site useful when
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     questions arise concerning these trains.  It may also be an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     introduction to the myflyertrains. org website and its extensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     collection of A.C. Gilbert catalogs, which is quite well known in
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     the S gauge community.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     Dale Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     





                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12544
						From: DOM ST.JOHN
						Date: 12/12/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris, it sounds like you are collecting the pre war cars in the Tru Model roster. I've been collecting Gilbert/ American Flyer HO for a long time. I have mentioned to Dale that I would be happy to help with info if anyone is in need. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dominic

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Sat, 12/12/09, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009, 3:41 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  





 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dale, Great Site! It seems extremely well organized, and well designed to make the most of the other
available AF HO resources.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My current
roster of freight cars is all metal, but I'm especially
seeking unpainted cars, since my current project is to run unpainted
brass and diecast diesel engines pulling unpainted metal cars.

                                                                                                                                                                                                   I do
have some AF unpainted kit cars as well as several painted cars. I was able to determine in minutes exactly how
many variations of the die cast freight cars had been produced.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

Even though I stick to unpainted cars from every other maker, I'm still
happy to go on collecting painted AF diecast cars, and I'd really like
to have at least one example of all the different road names for all
the diecast cars.    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I spent my youth with a basement full of AF S gauge trains, all funded by my dear two-rail fan mother, who was into model trains enough to buy any yardsale or thrift shop postwar metal AF equipment she could find. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think it's some of why I'm so devoted to collecting and running all metal engines and rolling stock now.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I was young, AF HO held little interest for me, since the size of S gauge equipment made all HO seem too small. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  But I'll have to say really have come to enjoy collecting diecast AF HO rolling stock, since it meets the all-metal criteria for my current layout project, but it also fuels a nostalgic connection with the older metal AF trains I remember so fondly. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for doing all the work this must have taken, it's not just an AF
HO research tool, it's a great template for organizing similar
information from other mfgrs.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I work with data presentation web sites professionally, and spend too
much hobby time online looking at model railroad and railroad history
sites, both personal and professional.  It's always a treat to be
invited to a new site that is easy to use and filled with useful
content. Nice work! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.



                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sat, December 12, 2009 11:26:52 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New Website for American Flyer HO

                                                                                                                                                                                                  







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dale S.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Just finished looking over your very informative Gilbert/AF HO website and it will be very useful as comprehensive accurate HO infomation did not seem to be available elsewhere on the web the last time I looked.   I had picked up the large published "Standard Catalog" by Doyle a year or so ago, and while that satisfied my needs for the S Gauge I started with as a kid, it was was not as complete as I would have liked on HO, so your effort is welcome.  A nice professional job!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Are you planning to expand it into accessories as time allows?  My favorites there are the "Paradise Diner" made up from one of their modern "American Flyer" type, actually Osgood-Bradley coaches, number 252, I believe, as wll as the Lackawanna bridges, being a DL&W/Erie fan.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Dale Smith <dfsmith26@. ..> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I limited myself to the catalogs for the simple reason that I did not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> want to simply duplicate what is already published and in the process, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> violate anyone's copyright.  I wanted to build this from primary 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> sources, such as the catalogs.   That is the starting point.   If any of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> you wish to help me add to this effort by drawing on your personal 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> knowledge of various pieces, I will be glad to accept your help and give 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> you appropriate credit on the site.  Even if the site is not as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> comprehensive as some other sources, it is handy and accessible.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Consider it a work in progress.  I am sure it can and will improve over 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Dale
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Dale S,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >      Glad you posted your Gilbert / American Flyer web site to view. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > As a collector of all companies manufacturing HO from 1937-1977, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > including Gilbert / AF HO, it's always nice to be able to check out 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > more information. I have the book by Gary Klein which is very good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >    I am fortunate to be very good friends with a person who supplied 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > much information and pictures, along with proof reading, for Mr. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Klein's book. I believe this man also happens to have the largest and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > most complete Gilbert / American Flyer HO collection including 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > accessories and such that I know of. With all this combined 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > information including the HO seeker site, past HOSC&H-SIG 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > newsletters plus my own paperwork and pieces makes it a lot easier to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > research Gilbert / American Flyer HO history.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >    I also like where you mention on your site about not listing known 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > uncataloged items as this can pertain to other companies. Catalogs are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > invaluable in keeping the history of vintage HO but I have found 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > instances of items not cataloged that are now known but many probably 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > still unknown. It is the search for these treasures that pushes me to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > want to learn more. My motto is "Never say never"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     *From:* Dale Smith <mailto:dfsmith26@ ...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     *To:* vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     *Sent:* Friday, December 11, 2009 1:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     *Subject:* [vintageHO] New Website for American Flyer HO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     I just finished a new website for American Flyer HO trains.   It
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     can be reached at www.gilbertho. org.   It consists of an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     illustrated database based on the cataloged items, with links to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     the actual catalogs on the website www.myflyertrains. org
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     <http://www.myflyert rains.org>.  The illustrations are taken from
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     my own catalogs (which are also part of the myflyertrains. org
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     website) and other catalogs on that website, by permission of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     owner of that website.  There isn't a lot of readily available
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     literature on these trains, except Gilbert American Flyer HO by
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     Gary Klein, which is out of print, and the Standard Catalog of
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     American Flyer Trains, which doesn't cover the sets, which this
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     website does.  I hope you all will find this site useful when
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     questions arise concerning these trains.  It may also be an
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     introduction to the myflyertrains. org website and its extensive
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     collection of A.C. Gilbert catalogs, which is quite well known in
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     the S gauge community.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >     Dale Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     





                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     



 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12545
						From: Dale Smith
						Date: 12/13/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: New Website for American Flyer HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


  
  

 
Ray,  I hope you enjoy the website.   We will be adding photos and
extending it to include accessories soon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dale
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Raymond Lorts Sr wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Dale; I got Gilbert H.O. Flat car,just loving. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I had a Stroke.                                     Ray L
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--- On Thu, 12/10/09, Dale Smith <dfsmith26@att. net>
wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Dale Smith <dfsmith26@att. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] New Website for American Flyer HO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Date: Thursday, December 10, 2009, 10:25 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just finished a new website for American Flyer HO
trains.   It can be reached at www.gilbertho. org.   It consists
of an illustrated database based on the cataloged items, with links to
the actual catalogs on the website www.myflyertrains. org.  The illustrations are
taken from my own catalogs (which are also part of the myflyertrains.
org website) and other catalogs on that website, by permission of the
owner of that website.  There isn't a lot of readily available
literature on these trains, except Gilbert American Flyer HO by Gary
Klein, which is out of print, and the Standard Catalog of American
Flyer Trains, which doesn't cover the sets, which this website does.  I
hope you all will find this site useful when questions arise concerning
these trains.  It may also be an introduction to the myflyertrains. org
website and its extensive collection of A.C. Gilbert catalogs, which is
quite well known in the S gauge community.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dale Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                          		
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12546
						From: ho_in_hancock
						Date: 12/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Penn Line H-9 Consolidation
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi, All:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I recently picked up a Penn Line H-9 Consolidation chassis on ebay and found that the crossheads have broken tabs where the valve gear normally attaches to them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Does anyone out there have a set of good crossheads that I could buy?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Ken Robbins
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Hancock, NH
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12547
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 12/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line H-9 Consolidation
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bowser H9 crossheads are virtually identical. Check with Bowser for 
availabilty.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 12/14/2009 7:40:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
kenrobbins39@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi, 
  All:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I recently picked up a Penn Line H-9 Consolidation chassis on ebay 
  and found that the crossheads have broken tabs where the valve gear normally 
  attaches to them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Does anyone out there have a set of good crossheads 
  that I could buy?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ken Robbins
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hancock, 
  NH



                                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12548
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 12/14/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Penn Line H-9 Consolidation
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 

 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  See if this helps.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://bowser-trains.com/holocos/h9/100920.pdf

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of luvprr@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009
7:47 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line
H-9 Consolidation
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   






                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bowser H9 crossheads are virtually
identical. Check with Bowser for availabilty.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 12/14/2009 7:40:21
P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenrobbins39@ yahoo.com writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi,
All:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I recently picked up a Penn Line H-9 Consolidation chassis on ebay and found
that the crossheads have broken tabs where the valve gear normally attaches to
them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Does anyone out there have a set of good crossheads that I could buy?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Ken Robbins
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 Hancock , NH
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12549
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 12/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Folks, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I read the following, I realized I've had the same question for a long time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  What works well for this today ???? I have a small stack of LaBelle wood kits I'd like to build.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks,

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Begin forwarded message:

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Over the years I have accumulated quite a collection of wood freight car kits.  My question is this:  What is the best method for sealing the wood?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kit instructions usually say to give the wood a coat of sanding sealer and than sand with steel wool.  Repeat several times.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They do make a sanding seal thinner.  Do you thin the sealer like paint?  Can it be airbrushed?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Francis A. Pehowic, Jr. in Sunbury, Pa.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12550
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 12/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don't thin the sealer. Slap it on with a brush--thicker the better. The 
idea of doing it several times is that the sealer evaporates very quickly, and 
you want the sealer to soak into the wood and fill up pores. This gives the wood 
a smooth, more impervious surface so that the paint dries more uniformly and 
doesn't give an uneven appearance after it dries. If you thin the sealer 
(they do make a thinner) and airbrush it, you will have to go over the wood 
more times--unless you soak it in with blasts from the brush. It isn't worth the 
extra hassle, and this stuff will hurt you or your family in the house if 
you breathe it too much--and the fumes travel amazingly far. It is potent 
stuff! You don't have to generally worry about getting it on evenly with a brush 
but do put at least 2 coats on. I would go with the fine steel wool 
recommended though you do get tiny steel splinters that will clean up with a 
magnet. There is an old fashioned method using gasoline, but I don't think I 
have to warn anyone about that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 12/15/2009 8:15:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
mwbauers55@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Folks,  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I read the following, I realized I've had the same question for a 
  long time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  What works well for this today ???? I have a small stack of LaBelle wood 
  kits I'd like to build.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Begin forwarded message:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Francis A. Pehowic, 
    Jr." 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [RPM-forum] Wood 
    Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Over the years I have accumulated quite a 
    collection of wood freight car kits.  My question is this:  What 
    is the best method for sealing the wood?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kit instructions usually say 
    to give the wood a coat of sanding sealer and than sand with steel 
    wool.  Repeat several times.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They do make a sanding seal 
    thinner.  Do you thin the sealer like paint?  Can it be 
    airbrushed?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Francis A. Pehowic, Jr. in Sunbury, 
    Pa.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12551
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 


 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Older LaBelle kits warned about using white glue at 
least for the major assemblies.  I found out why when I decided to build up 
a whole On3 San Juan--and couldn't find enough bricks to keep the side 
assemblies from warping.  Go with Ambroid or a wood-friendly CA.  
.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 5:10 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Fwd: [RPM-forum] 
  Wood Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Folks, 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I read the following, I realized I've had the same question for a 
  long time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  What works well for this today ???? I have a small stack of LaBelle wood 
  kits I'd like to build.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Begin forwarded message:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Francis A. Pehowic, 
    Jr." 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [RPM-forum] Wood 
    Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Over the years I have accumulated quite a 
    collection of wood freight car kits.  My question is this:  What 
    is the best method for sealing the wood?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kit instructions usually say 
    to give the wood a coat of sanding sealer and than sand with steel 
    wool.  Repeat several times.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They do make a sanding seal 
    thinner.  Do you thin the sealer like paint?  Can it be 
    airbrushed?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Francis A. Pehowic, Jr. in Sunbury, 
    Pa.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
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  www.avg.com 
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  Date: 12/15/09 07:52:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12552
						From: Chris B
						Date: 12/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike, the short answer is yes, you do thin sanding sealer with thinner, just like paint, and yes, it can be airbrushed.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  There is a real benefit to using fine open-coat aluminum oxide sandpaper (180 and 220) to carefully smooth the initial coats of sealer, rather than fine 0000 grade steel wool.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The reason is that there is a specific purpose accomplished by sanding sealer, when you are trying to get a very smooth finish on wood.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  What follows is what I learned as an apprentice restoration
cabinetmaker in my younger days, in a shop where we restored precious
american antique furniture for the White House and the State Department.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you can imagine the fine fine "hairs" that are present on the wood's surface after cutting the wood with steel blades, the first step in preparing for a smooth finish is sanding the raw wood surface smooth, say with garnet paper (120/160).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  This leaves the wood surface pretty smooth, but no matter how fine you sand, even going up to 400 grit garnet paper, the wood "hairs" just lay over flat like palm trees in a stiff wind, and they make a final finish coat less than perfectly smooth.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you think of all the TV commercials for shaving cream or razors, that's how to think of how sanding sealer is supposed to work, but you have to imagine that the shaving cream is left on your face long enough to dry around the hairs.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Then it holds the wood's "fine hairs" up straight and stiff, so that they are cut off by the open coat aluminum oxide white sandpaper
 that you use after the sealer has dried.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The open coat means the the sandpaper does not have a continuous surface of abrasive, and that leaves lots of room for the sealer particles and wood hairs that the paper cuts off with each stroke.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sanding sealer is a "high solid" finishing material, meaning that the proportion of actual finish solids to thinner is much higher than that found in a typical finish coat.  So you want to thin it enough to spray smoothly, but not so much that you lose the "high solid" quality that gives you the benefit of sanding sealer in making a smooth foundation for the top coats.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you use fine steel wooll to smooth the initial coats of sanding sealer, it won't hurt anything, but it also will just rub the hairy surface smooth, without actually cutting the hairs off and leaving a flat foundation for the top coats.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Once you've used sandpaper to "cut down" the sealer (that's the term we used
 in the shop for this step in finishing) then you can either start laying down top coats, or lay down additional sealer coats, both of which can be smoothed by 0000 grade steel wool.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  When we were done spraying and cutting down each of from 2 to 4 (not too thin) coats of sanding sealer on a table top, then we'd spray usually twice as many very thin top coats of (nitro-cellulose) laquer, (this was before today's eco friendly water-based finishes).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Each top coat would get cut down with successively finer grades of  black silicon carbide wet-or-dry sandpaper (220/400/600/800) until the surface of the table was optically flat to your eye and perfectly smooth to the touch.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  For fine pieces, we'd follow that process up with rubbing the top with 0000 steel wool, this included lubricating the rub down with water and a product called, duh...steel wool wax, which kept the steel wool from burning through the finish on edges or raised
 elements.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  This is probably as far as anyone would need to go with wooden car bodies, but if you are truly obsessed...

                                                                                                                                                                                                  for really fine pieces, in between the final sandpaper and steel wool steps, we would use soft cotton cloths and rub the top down with two powders that were similar to the rubbing compounds used in auto body finishing, but they were the very soft natural abrasive grades of pumice followed by rotten stone, a product that feels like corn starch to the touch.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Whatever steps and materials you choose, I hope this helps at least explain how sanding sealer is something like the primers used for metal or autobody work.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Metal primer is also a high solid material but it's purpose it's slightly different in that wood sanding sealer has two roles, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  one is the same as primer, in providing a smooth foundation for top coats, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and the other is different, in that it helps lock down the fine wood fibers so they can be cut
 off with abrasive paper.


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 8:10:32 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                  







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Folks, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I read the following, I realized I've had the same question for a long time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  What works well for this today ???? I have a small stack of LaBelle wood kits I'd like to build.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks,

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Begin forwarded message:

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Over the years I have accumulated quite a collection of wood freight car kits.  My question is this:  What is the best method for sealing the wood?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kit instructions usually say to give
 the wood a coat of sanding sealer and than sand with steel wool.  Repeat several times.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They do make a sanding seal thinner.  Do you thin the sealer like paint?  Can it be airbrushed?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Francis A. Pehowic, Jr. in Sunbury, Pa.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     





                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12553
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 12/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Following up a bit on this, you will find that sanding sealer for models is 
very expensive. Some hobby stores don't even carry it. The best place is a store 
that still sells stick model airplane kits or wood kits that need sealing. Since 
you are building a bunch of wood kits, it's a good idea to buy the sealer in 
quanity. Also, I find that the sealer thinner doesn't clean up a brush that's 
partly dried (it happens fast) as well as will Floquil thinner--which is also a 
lot cheaper. Be sure to use the steel wool between coats.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 12/15/2009 8:38:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
luvprr@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don't thin the sealer. Slap it on with a brush--thicker the better. The 
  idea of doing it several times is that the sealer evaporates very quickly, and 
  you want the sealer to soak into the wood and fill up pores. This gives the 
  wood a smooth, more impervious surface so that the paint dries more uniformly 
  and doesn't give an uneven appearance after it dries. If you thin the 
  sealer (they do make a thinner) and airbrush it, you will have to go over 
  the wood more times--unless you soak it in with blasts from the brush. It 
  isn't worth the extra hassle, and this stuff will hurt you or your family 
  in the house if you breathe it too much--and the fumes travel amazingly 
  far. It is potent stuff! You don't have to generally worry about getting 
  it on evenly with a brush but do put at least 2 coats on. I would go with the 
  fine steel wool recommended though you do get tiny steel splinters that 
  will clean up with a magnet. There is an old fashioned method using gasoline, 
  but I don't think I have to warn anyone about that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 12/15/2009 8:15:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
  mwbauers55@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Folks,  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I read the following, I realized I've had the same question for a 
    long time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  What works well for this today ???? I have a small stack of LaBelle 
    wood kits I'd like to build.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Begin forwarded message:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Over the years I have accumulated quite a 
      collection of wood freight car kits.  My question is this:  What 
      is the best method for sealing the wood?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kit instructions usually 
      say to give the wood a coat of sanding sealer and than sand with steel 
      wool.  Repeat several times.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They do make a sanding seal 
      thinner.  Do you thin the sealer like paint?  Can it be 
      airbrushed?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Francis A. Pehowic, Jr. in Sunbury, 
      Pa.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12554
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 12/15/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  >> *From: *"Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Over the years I have accumulated quite a collection of wood freight 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> car kits.  My question is this:  What is the best method for sealing 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> the wood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Kit instructions usually say to give the wood a coat of sanding sealer 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> and than sand with steel wool.  Repeat several times.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> They do make a sanding seal thinner.  Do you thin the sealer like 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> paint?  Can it be airbrushed?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      FWIW I have never used sanding sealer on any wood structure or 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
rolling stock kit that I have built, and the results have all been 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
satisfactory to my eyes. That's not to say that they would look fine to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
everyone or win any awards, but there have not been any glaring faults 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
induced by not treating them. Others have mentioned the fine hairs wood 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
that might stick up, but I think the 3 foot rule applies (How does the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
model look from a typical viewing distance of 3 or more feet?), and at 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
that distance those tiny imperfections really aren't noticeable.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Smash forehead on keyboard to continue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12555
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 12/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well! Since all of the hard way of doing things has been covered, use spray paint to seal the wood, you can use any clearcoat, such as Testors Dullcoat or Glosscoat, or you can simply prime it by going to Wal-Mart and buying a nice large can of gray primer, still around a buck a can!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 8:10:32 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Folks, 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I read the following, I realized I've had the same question for a long time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  What works well for this today ???? I have a small stack of LaBelle wood kits I'd like to build.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Begin forwarded message:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Over the years I have accumulated quite a collection of wood freight car kits.  My question is this:  What is the best method for sealing the wood?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kit instructions usually say to give the wood a coat of sanding sealer and than sand with steel wool.  Repeat several times.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They do make a sanding seal thinner.  Do you thin the sealer like paint?  Can it be airbrushed?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Francis A. Pehowic, Jr. in Sunbury, Pa.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12556
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 12/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think some folks are missing the point of having a nice finish on an 
expensive and/or craftsman level of wood kit. The idea is not only to fill in 
pores of the wood for subsequent coats of paint, but also to have a 
finish smooth to the touch. If you just paint or spray on something without 
sanding the wood you usually get wood with a raised grain. If you sand the wood 
and then spray on something like basic paint, you will still get a raised grain. 
Dulcoat or something similar may not raise the grain, but it will need to be 
sprayed on after sanding in any case. It all depends on how fussy you are about 
the finish even though you sometimes can "get away" with just painting 
over the bare wood as some woods are pretty tight and smooth anyway and will 
take paint nicely without any treatment first. I use sanding sealer because I 
don't want to use the "four foot rule," and it works well every time. I get 
beautiful finishes on my vintage wood kits without overspray or hoping 
things work out ok. It's more expensive but I also get the satisfaction of doing 
something in a more "old fashioned" way and knowing it's done right every time. 
After all, for some of us it's fun to do something that's not too quick and 
easy--like actually using skill to build kits and not to just spend the 
money to get a factory piece of equipment--as gorgeous as it might be. This 
mentality is especially applicable to us older folks who have the time and lots 
of nostalgia to play with. I would say this is especialy true for those building 
LaBelle kits--which was the object of this thread of thought in the first 
place.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 12/16/2009 6:27:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
betsy662@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well! Since all of the hard way of doing things has been covered, 
  use spray paint to seal the wood, you can use any clearcoat, such as Testors 
  Dullcoat or Glosscoat, or you can simply prime it by going to Wal-Mart 
  and buying a nice large can of gray primer, still around a buck a 
  can!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE 
  http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's 
  two most important questions! 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: Mike Bauers 
  <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 8:10:32 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Fwd: 
  [RPM-forum] Wood Kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Folks,  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I read the following, I realized I've had the same question for a 
  long time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  What works well for this today ???? I have a small stack of LaBelle wood 
  kits I'd like to build.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Begin forwarded message:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Over the years I have accumulated quite a collection of wood freight 
    car kits.  My question is this:  What is the best method for 
    sealing the wood?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kit instructions usually say to give the wood a 
    coat of sanding sealer and than sand with steel wool.  Repeat several 
    times.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They do make a sanding seal thinner.  Do you thin the 
    sealer like paint?  Can it be airbrushed?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Francis A. 
    Pehowic, Jr. in Sunbury, 
  Pa.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12557
						From: Chris B
						Date: 12/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I thought the original question was what was the best method for sealing wood, not the easiest method.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm a firm believer in the easy way whenever it gets whatever you want done.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I haven't done a full blown fine finish that way in many years, but if someone wanted to take closeup photos of wood models, it might be worth it. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I mostly finish wood projects with two coats of Fabulon floor finish with no sealing coats and only minimal sanding.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Same approach with gluing wood, I use either hot glue or 2-part marine epoxy in disposable syringes without much clamping or drying time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've never tried it, but it might be even lazier and more effective 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to dip some wooden car parts in whatever thinned-out finish liquid you like 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and let them hang till all the excess has run off, ideally before the finish can dry and leave visible runs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dipping and drying is used a lot in industrial production for wood and metal parts, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've tried it a few times with small metal parts that are a pain to rotate and spray evenly, it
 wasn't always successful, but it wasn't much effort either.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, December 16, 2009 6:27:04 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                  







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well! Since all of the hard way of doing things has been covered, use spray paint to seal the wood, you can use any clearcoat, such as Testors Dullcoat or Glosscoat, or you can simply prime it by going to Wal-Mart and buying a nice large can of gray primer, still around a buck a can!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 8:10:32 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Folks, 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I read the following, I realized I've had the same question for a long time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  What works well for this today ???? I have a small stack of LaBelle wood kits I'd like to build.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Begin forwarded message:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Over the years I have accumulated quite a collection of wood freight car kits.  My question is this:  What is the best method for sealing the wood?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kit instructions usually say to give the wood a coat of sanding sealer and than sand with steel wool.  Repeat several times.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They do make a sanding seal thinner.  Do you thin the sealer like paint?  Can it be airbrushed?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Francis A. Pehowic, Jr. in Sunbury, Pa.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     





                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12558
						From: jbark76
						Date: 12/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sealing with sealer or clear coat can make a smoother finish and help keep sides from warping.  When you speak of fine steel wool and multiple coats, I am reminded of the Quality Craft kits in the 70's that were trying to simulate metal sides.  I wouldn't get too carried away or you might defeat the purpose of using real wood for a wooden car.  Where scribed sides are concerned, I would not use a brush.  I generally use clearcoat spraypaint -lightly-, then paint with acrylic paint.  If you paint with Scalecoat or oil based paints, you might want to use actual sealer because the paint might react with a Krylon type spraypaint...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12559
						From: Chris B
						Date: 12/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art, have you tried to buy sealer at a paint supply shop?  In this area anyway, all the furniture finishing shops buy their supplies at commercial or contractor paint supply houses that mostly sell to autobody paintshops and commercial painting/woodfinishing companies.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They usually stock several size containiers of various types of wood sealers and finishes, because while most of their sales are in 5 or 50 gallon drums, there's always a need for a small pint or quart container of the same product for a sample or touchup job. There's not a huge volume in sales in these little containers, but there's also not a big need for a hobby shop level markup, since most of their sales are in high volume amounts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  There's one other product they usually carry if they cater to furniture refinishing or fine interior wood paneling finishers; it's called paste filler, and it comes in various dark wood colors, and is a chalk-like thick paste used in the same kind of ultra fine finishing process I described earlier to fill the pores of open grained woods like oak or mahogany.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It's not just used to fill the big pores on those type of woods to get a smooth finish, it's also used to enhance the final appearance when the color of the paste filler is noticeably darker than the actual wood after it's been finished.  Most woods look much lighter dry and raw then they do after finishing, especially it they're also stained a darker color than nature made them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The darker colored paste filler is carefully rubbed into the surface by hand with soft rags AFTER the sanding sealer step and BEFORe the final top coats, that's some of why such care is taken
 to get the sanding sealer smooth, because you rub the paste filler into the still open pores, and then after waiting a bit for it to "flash" and semi-dry, you use burlap rags to remove the excess filler from the surface WITHOUT pulling it out of the pores, something like the process used to remove grout from tile without pulling it out of the grooves between the tiles.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  After you spray and smooth the top coats, the dark paste filler really makes the pores pop right out of the grain visually, if you've ever admired a very smooth old oak piece of furniture where the oak was honey colored and the pores and grain looked almost black, that's usually the result of a well done finish that included a paste filler step in-between the sanding sealer and the top coats.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I know it's hard to believe I left out a step from my previous description of a fine finish, but hey, this stuff can get rediculous!  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In my shop in Takoma Park Md in the
 70's, when new customers asked why it had cost their friends thousands of dollars to have me refinish a fine dining table with multiple leaves that they had seen at a dinner party, I would walk them through the entire process of four coats of hand-sanded sealer, hand-rubbed paste filler, followed by 16 top coats of lacquer with wetsanding between each coat, followed by steel wool wax, pumice and rottenstone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I worked alone without helpers for a decade in that shop, I never advertised and I was good enough to always have a waiting list.  The Rocker Doctor was the shop's name, but those dining tables paid the mortgage!  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I wouldn't use that full process now unless someone was willing to pay what it's worth, but it's nice to know how things were done in the old days, whether it's furniture or casting bronze e-type shells in the garage!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris b.


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "luvprr@..." <luvprr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 8:55:27 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                  







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Following up a bit on this, you will find that sanding sealer for models is 
very expensive. Some hobby stores don't even carry it. The best place is a store 
that still sells stick model airplane kits or wood kits that need sealing. Since 
you are building a bunch of wood kits, it's a good idea to buy the sealer in 
quanity. Also, I find that the sealer thinner doesn't clean up a brush that's 
partly dried (it happens fast) as well as will Floquil thinner--which is also a 
lot cheaper. Be sure to use the steel wool between coats.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 12/15/2009 8:38:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
luvprr@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don't thin the sealer. Slap it on with a brush--thicker the better. The 
  idea of doing it several times is that the sealer evaporates very quickly, and 
  you want the sealer to soak into the wood and fill up pores. This gives the 
  wood a smooth, more impervious surface so that the paint dries more uniformly 
  and doesn't give an uneven appearance after it dries. If you thin the 
  sealer (they do make a thinner) and airbrush it, you will have to go over 
  the wood more times--unless you soak it in with blasts from the brush. It 
  isn't worth the extra hassle, and this stuff will hurt you or your family 
  in the house if you breathe it too much--and the fumes travel amazingly 
  far. It is potent stuff! You don't have to generally worry about getting 
  it on evenly with a brush but do put at least 2 coats on. I would go with the 
  fine steel wool recommended though you do get tiny steel splinters that 
  will clean up with a magnet. There is an old fashioned method using gasoline, 
  but I don't think I have to warn anyone about that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 12/15/2009 8:15:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
  mwbauers55@wi. rr.com writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Folks,  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I read the following, I realized I've had the same question for a 
    long time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  What works well for this today ???? I have a small stack of LaBelle 
    wood kits I'd like to build.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Begin forwarded message:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Over the years I have accumulated quite a 
      collection of wood freight car kits.  My question is this:  What 
      is the best method for sealing the wood?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kit instructions usually 
      say to give the wood a coat of sanding sealer and than sand with steel 
      wool.  Repeat several times.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They do make a sanding seal 
      thinner.  Do you thin the sealer like paint?  Can it be 
      airbrushed?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Francis A. Pehowic, Jr. in Sunbury, 
      Pa.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     





                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12560
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 12/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, there is the work smarter, not harder thing I guess, why would anyone use the Rube Goldburg method when the easy way will provide the same results?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A decent clearcoat, even if one uses Krylon Crystal Clear, will achieve the same results of sealing the wood, and keep it from warping, remember to paint both sides!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, December 16, 2009 7:34:46 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I thought the original question was what was the best method for sealing wood, not the easiest method.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm a firm believer in the easy way whenever it gets whatever you want done.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I haven't done a full blown fine finish that way in many years, but if someone wanted to take closeup photos of wood models, it might be worth it. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I mostly finish wood projects with two coats of Fabulon floor finish with no sealing coats and only minimal sanding.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Same approach with gluing wood, I use either hot glue or 2-part marine epoxy in disposable syringes without much clamping or drying time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've never tried it, but it might be even lazier and more effective 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to dip some wooden car parts in whatever thinned-out finish liquid you like 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  and let them hang till all the excess has run off, ideally before the finish can dry and leave visible runs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dipping
 and drying is used a lot in industrial production for wood and metal parts, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've tried it a few times with small metal parts that are a pain to rotate and spray evenly, it wasn't always successful, but it wasn't much effort either.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, December 16, 2009 6:27:04 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well! Since all of the hard way of doing things has been covered, use spray paint to seal the wood, you can use any clearcoat, such as Testors Dullcoat or Glosscoat, or you can simply prime it by going to Wal-Mart and buying a nice large can of gray primer, still around a buck a can!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 8:10:32 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Folks,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I read the following, I realized I've had the same question for a long time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  What works well for this today ???? I have a small stack of LaBelle wood kits I'd like to build.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Begin forwarded message:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Over the years I have accumulated quite a collection of wood freight car kits.  My question is this:  What is the best method for sealing the wood?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kit instructions usually say to give the wood a coat of sanding sealer and than sand with steel wool.  Repeat several times.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They do make a sanding seal thinner.  Do you thin the sealer like paint?  Can it be airbrushed?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Francis A. Pehowic, Jr. in Sunbury, Pa.



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12561
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 12/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Art,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I understand where your coming from, I'm not looking for a real quick method, my method is more economic, kind of the idea, why by the package of 3 screws from Walthers from the hobby shop, when you can go and get the same 2-56 screws in bulk for far less money!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  You still have to sand between sealing coats, but with any of the clearcoats, whether you use Testors or Krylon, there is still that craftsmenship that needs to be done in order to make the kit right, not to mention its done to keep the kit parts from warping when glueing everything together............:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "luvprr@..." <luvprr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, December 16, 2009 7:07:50 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think some folks are missing the point of having a nice finish on an expensive and/or craftsman level of wood kit. The idea is not only to fill in pores of the wood for subsequent coats of paint, but also to have a finish smooth to the touch. If you just paint or spray on something without sanding the wood you usually get wood with a raised grain. If you sand the wood and then spray on something like basic paint, you will still get a raised grain. Dulcoat or something similar may not raise the grain, but it will need to be sprayed on after sanding in any case. It all depends on how fussy you are about the finish even though you sometimes can "get away" with just painting over the bare wood as some woods are pretty tight and smooth anyway and will take paint nicely without any treatment first. I use sanding sealer because I don't want to use the "four foot rule," and it works well every time. I get beautiful finishes on my
 vintage wood kits without overspray or hoping things work out ok. It's more expensive but I also get the satisfaction of doing something in a more "old fashioned" way and knowing it's done right every time. After all, for some of us it's fun to do something that's not too quick and easy--like actually using skill to build kits and not to just spend the money to get a factory piece of equipment--as gorgeous as it might be. This mentality is especially applicable to us older folks who have the time and lots of nostalgia to play with. I would say this is especialy true for those building LaBelle kits--which was the object of this thread of thought in the first place.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 12/16/2009 6:27:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, betsy662@yahoo. com writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well! Since all of the hard way of doing things has been covered, use spray paint to seal the wood, you can use any clearcoat, such as Testors Dullcoat or Glosscoat, or you can simply prime it by going to Wal-Mart and buying a nice large can of gray primer, still around a buck a can!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@wi. rr.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 8:10:32 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Folks,  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I read the following, I realized I've had the same question for a long time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  What works well for this today ???? I have a small stack of LaBelle wood kits I'd like to build.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Begin forwarded message:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Over the years I have accumulated quite a collection of wood freight car kits.  My question is this:  What is the best method for sealing the wood?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kit instructions usually say to give the wood a coat of sanding sealer and than sand with steel wool.  Repeat several times.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They do make a sanding seal thinner.  Do you thin the sealer like paint?  Can it be airbrushed?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Francis A. Pehowic, Jr. in Sunbury, Pa.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12562
						From: Chris B
						Date: 12/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary, sorry if I got on my high horse, it was easier than getting benchwork built and at the time it wasn't going all that well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I finally settled down and got it done, but I wanted to apologize to the group for blowing off some pretty pompous steam in the wrong direction. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  attached are some photos of what I did get done tonight, and a shot my wife took last week when I was really trapped in the benchwork.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Gary Woodard
 <betsy662@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, December 16, 2009 5:38:44 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                  







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, there is the work smarter, not harder thing I guess, why would anyone use the Rube Goldburg method when the easy way will provide the same results?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A decent clearcoat, even if one uses Krylon Crystal Clear, will achieve the same results of sealing the wood, and keep it from warping, remember to paint both sides!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  




  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     
                                                                                                                                                                                                  




  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  .
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12563
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 12/16/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits [4 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  We all have our own way of doing things, my purpose or sealing the wood may very well be different from yours, as my primary goal is to keep the thinner parts from warping, for others, its to make the finished product a little nicer, so no problem....:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, December 16, 2009 11:00:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits [4 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary, sorry if I got on my high horse, it was easier than getting benchwork built and at the time it wasn't going all that well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I finally settled down and got it done, but I wanted to apologize to the group for blowing off some pretty pompous steam in the wrong direction. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  attached are some photos of what I did get done tonight, and a shot my wife took last week when I was really trapped in the benchwork.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, December 16, 2009 5:38:44 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fwd: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, there is the work smarter, not harder thing I guess, why would anyone use the Rube Goldburg method when the easy way will provide the same results?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  A decent clearcoat, even if one uses Krylon Crystal Clear, will achieve the same results of sealing the wood, and keep it from warping, remember to paint both sides!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  .
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12564
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 12/17/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: PRR Train Phones
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi, all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Am building a vintage Quality Craft kit of a Pennsy N8 cabin car. This 
class of car commonly had a train phone antenna arangement on the roof with 
transmitting and receiving gear. However, this kit is minus the 2 receiving 
coils usually seen on the prototype roof and are not shown on the plans. My 
question is: did QC simply leave off the coils for some production reason 
known only to their staff at the time, or is this a version where the 
PRR was still experimenting with the phone system? Anyone know their PRR history 
enough to hazard an educated guess? It's a nice brass kit and is 
coming out very nicely, so I hate to see it not done completely.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 12/16/2009 6:27:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
betsy662@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well! Since all of the hard way of doing things has been covered, 
  use spray paint to seal the wood, you can use any clearcoat, such as Testors 
  Dullcoat or Glosscoat, or you can simply prime it by going to Wal-Mart 
  and buying a nice large can of gray primer, still around a buck a 
  can!!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE 
  http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's 
  two most important questions! 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: Mike Bauers 
  <mwbauers55@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 8:10:32 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Fwd: 
  [RPM-forum] Wood Kits

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Folks,  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I read the following, I realized I've had the same question for a 
  long time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  What works well for this today ???? I have a small stack of LaBelle wood 
  kits I'd like to build.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Begin forwarded message:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [RPM-forum] Wood Kits
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Over the years I have accumulated quite a collection of wood freight 
    car kits.  My question is this:  What is the best method for 
    sealing the wood?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kit instructions usually say to give the wood a 
    coat of sanding sealer and than sand with steel wool.  Repeat several 
    times.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  They do make a sanding seal thinner.  Do you thin the 
    sealer like paint?  Can it be airbrushed?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Francis A. 
    Pehowic, Jr. in Sunbury, 
  Pa.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12565
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 12/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Merry Christmas 2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Merry Christmas everybody, and have a safe and Happy New Year as well.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12566
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 12/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Identify This Loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm getting ready to put a box of junkers on eBay. Can anybody 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
identify the attached loco? There aren't any identifying marks that I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
can find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Idaho - It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12567
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 12/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Identify This Loco [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Rick
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  American Flyer Gilbert
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sat, December 19, 2009 2:19:28 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Identify This Loco [1 Attachment]

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm getting ready to put a box of junkers on eBay. Can anybody 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  identify the attached loco? There aren't any identifying marks that I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  can find.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -- 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Rick Jones

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Idaho - It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from
                                                                                                                                                                                                  there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12568
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Identify This Loco [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.hydroponicsonline.com/store/GILBERT-AMERICAN-FLYER-HO-31031-B-0-SWITCHER-C-7_270456016203.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gives you some idea what they are supposed to look like.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Rick
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> American Flyer Gilbert
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sent: Sat, December 19, 2009 2:19:28 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: [vintageHO] Identify This Loco [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> [Attachment(s) from Rick Jones included below] 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I'm getting ready to put a box of junkers on eBay. Can anybody 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> identify the attached loco? There aren't any identifying marks that I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> can find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Idaho - It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12569
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 12/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Identify This Loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  trainsnwrcs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://www.hydroponicsonline.com/store/GILBERT-AMERICAN-FLYER-HO-31031-B-0-SWITCHER-C-7_270456016203.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gives you some idea what they are supposed to look like.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks very much.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Since Adam and Eve were never married, what does that make all
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
of us?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12570
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Identify This Loco [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  got an error message at the photo--it is definitely Flyer--gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:19 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Identify This Loco [1 Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>    I'm getting ready to put a box of junkers on eBay. Can anybody
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> identify the attached loco? There aren't any identifying marks that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> can find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Idaho - It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Version: 8.5.427 / Virus Database: 270.14.114/2575 - Release Date: 12/19/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
08:33:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12571
						From: John H
						Date: 12/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Identify This Loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     I'm getting ready to put a box of junkers on eBay. Can anybody 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> identify the attached loco? There aren't any identifying marks that I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> can find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Rick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Yes that is an American Flyer. And even though it is lettered for the B&O it is a Pennsylvania Prototype, a B6  think. As I remember the real ones did a better job of hiding the motor. I always thought the Pennsy used Bellpaire fireboxes to make hiding the motors easier.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12572
						From: Dale Smith
						Date: 12/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Identify This Loco [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


  

 
Rick,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
As others have said, it is Gilbert AF HO, but I thought I would put in
a plug for my new website, on which you can find this locomotive,
listed by number, as well as practically everything Gilbert made in
HO.   www.gilbertho.org  This was one of Gilbert's cost cutting models,
without smoke and choo-choo and was only included in sets.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dale Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Rick Jones wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   I'm getting ready to put a box of junkers on eBay. Can anybody 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
identify the attached loco? There aren't any identifying marks that I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
can find.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Idaho - It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12573
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 12/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Another Identification Needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Here's another 0-6-0 slope tender switcher, rather similar to the AF 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gilbert I asked about earlier, that's going in the junker box I'm 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
planning to put on eBay. No identifying marks on this one either. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
tender has an archbar truck in front and a Bettendorf truck in the rear, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  likely not the original configuration. No lettering or numbers, no 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
valve gear, but it does have the guides to the rear of the piston 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
chamber, one of which is broken on the left side.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If you don't pay your exorcist you'll be repossessed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12574
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Another Identification Needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Looks like MDC.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
You have a price in mind before you evilbay them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Here's another 0-6-0 slope tender switcher, rather similar to the AF 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gilbert I asked about earlier, that's going in the junker box I'm 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> planning to put on eBay. No identifying marks on this one either. The 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> tender has an archbar truck in front and a Bettendorf truck in the rear, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   likely not the original configuration. No lettering or numbers, no 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> valve gear, but it does have the guides to the rear of the piston 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> chamber, one of which is broken on the left side.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> If you don't pay your exorcist you'll be repossessed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12575
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 12/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Identify This Loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dale Smith wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> As others have said, it is Gilbert AF HO, but I thought I would put in a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> plug for my new website, on which you can find this locomotive, listed 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> by number, as well as practically everything Gilbert made in HO.   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> www.gilbertho.org  This was one of Gilbert's cost cutting models, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> without smoke and choo-choo and was only included in sets.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks, but without any idea who the manufacturer was I'd have had 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
no idea to look there while trying to identify it. Now I need help with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
another 0-6-0, pics of which I just sent in another message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"I went to San Francisco. I found someone's heart."
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    -Stephen Wright
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12576
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Identify This Loco
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Rick-
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Check your e-mail.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >     Thanks, but without any idea who the manufacturer was I'd have had 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> no idea to look there while trying to identify it. Now I need help with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> another 0-6-0, pics of which I just sent in another message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> "I went to San Francisco. I found someone's heart."
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     -Stephen Wright
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12577
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Another Identification Needed [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  even in silhouette, no mistaking an SP switcher--most likely MDC/Roundhouse. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
First marketed in 1938 and only recently discontinued with the rest of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
MDC line.   Original tooling by Cliff Grandt.  I have a 1948  kit.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 4:47 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Another Identification Needed [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>    Here's another 0-6-0 slope tender switcher, rather similar to the AF
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gilbert I asked about earlier, that's going in the junker box I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> planning to put on eBay. No identifying marks on this one either. The
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> tender has an archbar truck in front and a Bettendorf truck in the rear,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  likely not the original configuration. No lettering or numbers, no
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> valve gear, but it does have the guides to the rear of the piston
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> chamber, one of which is broken on the left side.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> If you don't pay your exorcist you'll be repossessed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Version: 8.5.427 / Virus Database: 270.14.114/2575 - Release Date: 12/19/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
08:33:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12578
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 12/19/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Another Identification Needed
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  trainsnwrcs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > Looks like MDC.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> You have a price in mind before you evilbay them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                     No idea of their value, if any. Just whatever the highest bidder 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
offers. I've placed an Athearn Hi-F UP GP and a Lionel Hustler in Air 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Force colors up separately already.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"Cats are smarter than dogs. You can't get eight cats to pull a sled 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
through snow."
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    --  Jeff Valdez
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12579
						From: Rudolf
						Date: 12/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: rare Penn Line passenger set
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim/Gerold, Penn Line also sold some of the freight car line of Fleischmann in the early 50's. Maybe not as rare as the NP passenger set, but special in a certain way too. Regards, Rudolf
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>      Will get a close up of the passenger car trucks to you but might not be till Monday as things here are a little hectic. Thanks for the information about the type of cars these are and the other road names available. The Northern Pacific set is the only one I know sold by Penn Line.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                              Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   From: Gerold Eckl 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 2:16 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Subject: Re: [vintageHO] rare Penn Line passenger set
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   just looked at your Penn line cars... obviously Fleischmann in disguise; 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   they were sold in Europe in UP and PRR paint. Basically this are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Deutsche Reichsbahn " Schürzenwagen" - skirt cars - the most advanced 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   prewar passenger cars , which were used for the premier trains in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   fifties until new equipment was built. Would be curious to see a closeup 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   of the trucks, cant identify them from the distance.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>   Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12580
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 12/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've put a few items up on eBay that may or may not be of interest 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
to the members of the list. The two 0-6-0s that you helped me identify 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
are included in one set along with an Aristocraft/New One 4-4-0 and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mantua 0-4-0 tank engine. In two other auctions I have an Athearn Hi-F 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
GP painted for UP, and a Lionel Hustler painted for the Air Force. These 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
are the links:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260526148094&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260526150441&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260526520949&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    The Lionel Hustler seems to be drawing particular interest. My eBay 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
says there are 17 Watchers picked up in the past 24 hours since I listed it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If patience is a virtue and ignorance is bliss, you can have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
pretty good life if you're stupid and willing to wait.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12581
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 12/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  You have a Llionel Husky, not a Athearn Hustler.  They were both made by Athearn, but the Husky is somewhat less common than a Hustler and generally go for somewhat more due the the much higher interest. They are also more desireable, in my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you can you should really consider changing the heading of your ad to Lionel Husky.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  True Husky fans will recognize it anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Sun, 12/20/09, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 2:15 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I've put a few items up on eBay that may or may not be of interest 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to the members of the list. The two 0-6-0s that you helped me identify 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are included in one set along with an Aristocraft/New One 4-4-0 and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mantua 0-4-0 tank engine. In two other auctions I have an Athearn Hi-F 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  GP painted for UP, and a Lionel Hustler painted for the Air Force. These 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are the links:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260526148094&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260526150441&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260526520949&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

                                                                                                                                                                                                      The Lionel Hustler seems to be drawing particular interest. My eBay 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  says there are 17 Watchers picked up in the past 24 hours since I listed it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -- 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Rick Jones

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If patience is a virtue and ignorance is bliss, you can have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                  pretty good life if you're stupid and willing to wait.


                                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------------------------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yahoo! Groups Links

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12582
						From: Bill Anderson
						Date: 12/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Sound Components
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I need some help with identifing the DCC/sound 
board and speakers used by Precision Craft Models in their ALCO FA1/FB1 
locomotives. A company representive recently informed me that they no longer 
support this model and would not/could not provide any help. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am hoping there are some individules in the group 
that are familiar with this model and know the DCC/sound board and speakers used 
in its production. Also, any suggestions for particular sound board and 
speaker would be welcome. I am particularly interested in the loaping idle and 
throaty growl of these ALCOS. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Greenway Products recently painted this model for 
me in the Tennessee Central maroon and yellow and it looks great. Upgrading 
it to DCC and sound would really be the icing on the cake.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for any feed back.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Bill Anderson 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12583
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 12/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  To add to this, the Athearn Hustlers were always, as far as I know, belt drive (Hi-F). Lionel's were, like the Marx version, gear drive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Makes me wonder why in the world Athearn didn't use the gear drive themselves, if they were the ones who developed it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I recently fixed a gear drive Husky for the hobby shop owner, added Kadee couplers, and gave him a matching Bachmann bobber caboose (Both were Union Pacific). He is fixing to sell them as a matched pair, aimed at industrial/mining/logging layouts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Sun, 12/20/09, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 7:01 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  





 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  You have a Llionel Husky, not a Athearn Hustler.  They were both made by Athearn, but the Husky is somewhat less common than a Hustler and generally go for somewhat more due the the much higher interest. They are also more desireable, in my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you can you should really consider changing the heading of your ad to Lionel Husky.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  True Husky fans will recognize it anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Sun, 12/20/09, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@sbcglobal .net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@sbcglobal .net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 2:15 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I've put a few items up on eBay that may or may not be of interest 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to the members of the list. The two 0-6-0s that you helped me identify 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are included in one set along with an Aristocraft/ New One 4-4-0 and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mantua 0-4-0 tank engine. In two other auctions I have an Athearn Hi-F 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  GP painted for UP, and a Lionel Hustler painted for the Air Force. These 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are the links:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem&item=260526148094&ssPageName=STRK: MESELX:IT

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem&item=260526150441&ssPageName=STRK: MESELX:IT

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem&item=260526520949&ssPageName=STRK: MESELX:IT

                                                                                                                                                                                                      The Lionel Hustler seems to be drawing particular interest. My eBay 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  says there are 17 Watchers picked up in the past 24 hours since I listed it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -- 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Rick Jones

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If patience is a virtue and ignorance is bliss, you can have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                  pretty good life if you're stupid and willing to wait.


                                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------ --------- --------- ------

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                                                                                                                                                                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/

                                                                                                                                                                                                  <*> Your email settings:
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Individual Email |
 Traditional

                                                                                                                                                                                                  <*> To change settings online go to:
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                                                                                                                                                                                                  <*> To change settings via email:
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                                                                                                                                                                                                  <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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 subject to:
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12584
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 12/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wobbly913 wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> You have a Llionel Husky, not a Athearn Hustler.  They were both made by 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Athearn, but the Husky is somewhat less common than a Hustler and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> generally go for somewhat more due the the much higher interest. They 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> are also more desireable, in my opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> If you can you should really consider changing the heading of your ad to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Lionel Husky.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> True Husky fans will recognize it anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Just tried, couldn't change the title nor my original description. I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
could've added an additional description but decided to just let it go. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
My eBay says there are now 20 Watchers keeping an eye on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Does the name Alexander Graham ring a bell?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12585
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 12/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Sound Components
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Please take this question to a more appropriate list.  DCC and made in China 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
plastic paperweights are  off topic here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Bill Anderson" <wilmeaux@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageho@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 6:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Sound Components
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Hello all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I need some help with identifing the DCC/sound board and speakers used by 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Precision Craft Models in their ALCO FA1/FB1 locomotives. A company 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
representive recently informed me that they no longer support this model and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
would not/could not provide any help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I am hoping there are some individules in the group that are familiar with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
this model and know the DCC/sound board and speakers used in its production. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Also, any suggestions for particular sound board and speaker would be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
welcome. I am particularly interested in the loaping idle and throaty growl 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
of these ALCOS.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Greenway Products recently painted this model for me in the Tennessee 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Central maroon and yellow and it looks great. Upgrading it to DCC and sound 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
would really be the icing on the cake.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for any feed back.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Bill Anderson 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12586
						From: Michael
						Date: 12/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I inherited this old brass engine from my uncle.  It was in storage for at least 35 years.  Photos can be seen in the album called Allman Trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
It appears to have no markings on it at all.  It runs on the bench but i have not been able to get it to run on any track yet.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If anyone has any info on this model I would appreciate it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Michael Allman
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12587
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 12/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Could you add maybe a couple more pictures showing the entire locomotive in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
one view?  It would make it a bit easier.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Michael" <mgallman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 11:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Old Brass Engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>I inherited this old brass engine from my uncle.  It was in storage for at 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>least 35 years.  Photos can be seen in the album called Allman Trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> It appears to have no markings on it at all.  It runs on the bench but i 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> have not been able to get it to run on any track yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> If anyone has any info on this model I would appreciate it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Michael Allman
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
\ 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12588
						From: Michael Allman
						Date: 12/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Full view of engine now online...

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Michael Allman

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Mon, 12/21/09, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Brass Engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Monday, December 21, 2009, 12:39 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  





 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Could you add maybe a couple more pictures showing the entire locomotive in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
one view?  It would make it a bit easier.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Michael" <mgallman@sbcglobal. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 11:21 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Old Brass Engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>I inherited this old brass engine from my uncle.  It was in storage for at 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>least 35 years.  Photos can be seen in the album called Allman Trains.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> It appears to have no markings on it at all.  It runs on the bench but i 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> have not been able to get it to run on any track yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> If anyone has any info on this model I would appreciate it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Michael Allman
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
\ 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     



 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12589
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/20/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  On the other hand--the Lionel and Marx versions 
were popular with the On3 crowd as basis for "critters". because of the 
gear drive.   gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 6:04 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      To add to this, the Athearn Hustlers were always, as far 
        as I know, belt drive (Hi-F). Lionel's were, like the Marx version, gear 
        drive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Makes me wonder why in the world Athearn didn't use the 
        gear drive themselves, if they 
        were the ones who developed it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I recently fixed a gear drive 
        Husky for the hobby shop owner, added Kadee couplers, and gave him a 
        matching Bachmann bobber caboose (Both were Union Pacific). He is fixing 
        to sell them as a matched pair, aimed at industrial/mining/logging 
        layouts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Sun, 12/20/09, Wobbly913 
        <wobbly913@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
          Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
          Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Sunday, December 20, 
          2009, 7:01 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
              
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                  You have a Llionel Husky, not a Athearn Hustler.  They 
                were both made by Athearn, but the Husky is somewhat less common 
                than a Hustler and generally go for somewhat more due the the 
                much higher interest. They are also more desireable, in my 
                opinion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you can you should really consider changing the heading 
                of your ad to Lionel Husky.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                  True Husky fans will recognize it anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                


                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Sun, 12/20/09, Rick Jones 
                <r.t.jones@sbcglobal .net> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Rick 
                  Jones <r.t.jones@sbcglobal .net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] 
                  Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Sunday, 
                  December 20, 2009, 2:15 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I've put a few items up on 
                  eBay that may or may not be of interest 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to the members of 
                  the list. The two 0-6-0s that you helped me identify 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are 
                  included in one set along with an Aristocraft/ New One 4-4-0 
                  and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mantua 0-4-0 tank engine. In two other auctions I have 
                  an Athearn Hi-F 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  GP painted for UP, and a Lionel Hustler 
                  painted for the Air Force. These 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are the links:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI 
                  .dll?ViewItem&item=260526148094&ssPageName=STRK: 
                  MESELX:IT

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI 
                  .dll?ViewItem&item=260526150441&ssPageName=STRK: 
                  MESELX:IT

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI 
                  .dll?ViewItem&item=260526520949&ssPageName=STRK: 
                  MESELX:IT

                                                                                                                                                                                                      The Lionel Hustler seems to 
                  be drawing particular interest. My eBay 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  says there are 17 
                  Watchers picked up in the past 24 hours since I listed 
                  it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -- 

                                                                                                                                                                                                            
                           Rick Jones

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If 
                  patience is a virtue and ignorance is bliss, you can have 
                  a
                                                                                                                                                                                                  pretty good life if you're stupid and willing to 
                  wait.


                                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------ --------- --------- 
                  ------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12590
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


  
  

 
Michael Allman wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        Full view of engine now online...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Michael Allman
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
---                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
An "small" Union Pacific Challenger - 3800 Class - they were done by
several manufactureres/ importers in the fifties, Leonhard Blum,
Olympic Empress, M.B.Austin and others... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have an identical model, not 100% sure which orgin, my best guess is
its an International as mentioned in the 1956 catalog . You will find
it at Larrys website: http://www.hoseeker.net/otherhotrains.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Pics of my painted model attached. Had a cheap can motor and a decoder
installed when I received it last year. Had to touch up paint and
fiddle with the universals; it runs quite good for its age now. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12591
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I can provide some rambling information, but 
nothing definitive.  I think there are some that can be ruled out, 
though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm quite sure this would be an "early" (in the 
prototype sense) Union Pacific 4-6-6-4 Challenger (6 wheel tender trucks 
and light on smokebos) and that the model was almost certainly made 
1950's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Also, it is the most "crude", shall we 
say, offering of a brass challenger that I have ever seen a picture 
of.  That's what makes me think it is very, very early in the history of 
imported brass models and more at the end of  the spectrum where IMP and 
M.B. austin were and not LMB and especially not Tenshodo.  It doesn't even 
have the boiler feed pipe and check valves and the number boards are flat 
slabs.  This is pretty basic.  I also don't think it is the LMB that 
is mentioned below.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The "Brown Book" listings for anything in 
the 1950's is:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  International Models (IMP)  (no year stated 
but probably 50's because IMP) Qty: ?. factory painted, wood 
box
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM Atlas 1954 handbuilt Qty: 1  
Handbuilt
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM Tenshodo 1956 QTY: 2 Headlight on smokebox 
front, semi vanderbilt tender with 6 wheel buckeye trucks 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM Tenshodo 1956 QTY: 7 Headlight on smokebox front, semi vanderbilt 
tender with 6 wheel buckeye trucks 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM Tenshodo 1957 QTY: 6 Hand scribed 
serial numbers on top of rear frame and/or 
under pilot 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM Tenshodo 1959 QTY: ? Headlight on smokebox 
front, semi vanderbilt tender with 6 wheel buckeye 
trucks 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  "Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon" 1974 has these 
listingsfor the "early type 3900 class Challenger" (I listed all 
years):
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  M. B. Austin 1958 Qty: 30, 6 wheel 
powered
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM 1955-58; rumored a few were made
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  LMB 1960 Qty: ?, 6 wheel powered
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Olympic Express 1960
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Balboa 1964 50 pcs
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  There is a photo of the Olympic Express engine and 
it has better detail.  Also, it has a headlight on smokebox front.  
Probably ALL models of the "early" challengers are like that so that probably 
isn't a worthwhile spotting feature)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The 2009 "Brass Model Trains Price & Data Guide" shows:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  IMP   Year: ? Qty: ? Painted, wood box
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  IMP   Year: ? Qty: ? Unpainted, velvet box
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: 1  1954  Hand 
built
                                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: 2  1955  Hand built - hand 
filed drivers - semi-vanderbilt tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: 7  1956  Hand built - hand 
filed drivers - semi-vanderbilt tender

                                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: 6  1957  Hand built 
- hand scribed serial #s on top of rear fram & or under the pilot

                                                                                                                                                                                                  MBA (M .B. Austin)  Qty: 30  
1958  Unpainted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: ?  1959  
Semi-vanderbilt tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  For the IMP ones listed in this book, I don't know 
if it is the "early" style or not.  But the description of wood and velvet 
boxes might be useful if you have a box.  And while no year listed, they 
are probably in the 1950's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think it is very unlikely that this is 
scratchbuilt.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My guess is that it is probably either the IMP 
or M. B. Austin (and these might very well have come from the same place anyway) 
if only the rear engine is powered.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck K.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  Michael 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 9:21 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Old Brass 
  Engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I inherited this old brass engine from my uncle. It was in storage for at 
  least 35 years. Photos can be seen in the album called Allman 
  Trains.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It appears to have no markings on it at all. It runs on the 
  bench but i have not been able to get it to run on any track yet. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If 
  anyone has any info on this model I would appreciate 
  it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Michael Allman

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12592
						From: Matthew
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
In an interview with one of the magazines that was a predecessor to "Model Retailer" back in 1961, Irv Athearn said that the Hi-F drive was developed to provide a very low-cost drive for new model railroaders. Irv was not only a good modeler, but also a sharp businessman. In the 1950s, the majority of new model railroaders were in their late teens through late twenties and were 'poor.' The competition for Athearn was from established companies like Hobbytown and Penn Line who made excellent, but relatively expensive gear drives. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The Hustler in particular was designed as an entry level train set loco that would get someone into the hobby in HO for under $12 -- which was the cost of the first Athearn train set with a Hustler, two cars, caboose and an oval of track.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The gear drive developed for Lionel was much better, but apparently didn't fit the marketing plan for Athearn. Every other loco except the Hustler eventually came out in a geared drive format but as far as I can tell for some reason the Hustler lived and died with Hi-F.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To add to this, the Athearn Hustlers were always, as far as I know, belt drive (Hi-F). Lionel's were, like the Marx version, gear drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Makes me wonder why in the world Athearn didn't use the gear drive themselves, if they were the ones who developed it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I recently fixed a gear drive Husky for the hobby shop owner, added Kadee couplers, and gave him a matching Bachmann bobber caboose (Both were Union Pacific). He is fixing to sell them as a matched pair, aimed at industrial/mining/logging layouts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12593
						From: Nelson B
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've always wanted to know; how did the Huskys run? Were they geared for a reasonable speed, or mach 6?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew" <mattjcoleman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> In an interview with one of the magazines that was a predecessor to "Model Retailer" back in 1961, Irv Athearn said that the Hi-F drive was developed to provide a very low-cost drive for new model railroaders. Irv was not only a good modeler, but also a sharp businessman. In the 1950s, the majority of new model railroaders were in their late teens through late twenties and were 'poor.' The competition for Athearn was from established companies like Hobbytown and Penn Line who made excellent, but relatively expensive gear drives. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The Hustler in particular was designed as an entry level train set loco that would get someone into the hobby in HO for under $12 -- which was the cost of the first Athearn train set with a Hustler, two cars, caboose and an oval of track.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The gear drive developed for Lionel was much better, but apparently didn't fit the marketing plan for Athearn. Every other loco except the Hustler eventually came out in a geared drive format but as far as I can tell for some reason the Hustler lived and died with Hi-F.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > To add to this, the Athearn Hustlers were always, as far as I know, belt drive (Hi-F). Lionel's were, like the Marx version, gear drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Makes me wonder why in the world Athearn didn't use the gear drive themselves, if they were the ones who developed it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I recently fixed a gear drive Husky for the hobby shop owner, added Kadee couplers, and gave him a matching Bachmann bobber caboose (Both were Union Pacific). He is fixing to sell them as a matched pair, aimed at industrial/mining/logging layouts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12594
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Matt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The RDC also lived an died with the Hi F drive, even though Ernst did offer gearing kits for both.........:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: Matthew <mattjcoleman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Mon, December 21, 2009 4:01:05 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Selling

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Steve,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In an interview with one of the magazines that was a predecessor to "Model Retailer" back in 1961, Irv Athearn said that the Hi-F drive was developed to provide a very low-cost drive for new model railroaders. Irv was not only a good modeler, but also a sharp businessman. In the 1950s, the majority of new model railroaders were in their late teens through late twenties and were 'poor.' The competition for Athearn was from established companies like Hobbytown and Penn Line who made excellent, but relatively expensive gear drives. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The Hustler in particular was designed as an entry level train set loco that would get someone into the hobby in HO for under $12 -- which was the cost of the first Athearn train set with a Hustler, two cars, caboose and an oval of track.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The gear drive developed for Lionel was much better, but apparently didn't fit the marketing plan for Athearn. Every other loco except the Hustler eventually came
 out in a geared drive format but as far as I can tell for some reason the Hustler lived and died with Hi-F.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Matt

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebu ild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > To add to this, the Athearn Hustlers were always, as far as I know, belt drive (Hi-F). Lionel's were, like the Marx version, gear drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Makes me wonder why in the world Athearn didn't use the gear drive themselves, if they were the ones who developed it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I recently fixed a gear drive Husky for the hobby shop owner, added Kadee couplers, and gave him a matching Bachmann bobber caboose (Both were Union Pacific). He is fixing to sell them as a matched pair, aimed at industrial/mining/ logging layouts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12595
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  That was the second, or plastic RDC.  gj  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 3:05 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 
Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Matt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The RDC also lived an died with the Hi F drive, even though 
  Ernst did offer gearing kits for both.........:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 
  to answer life's two most important questions! 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: Matthew <mattjcoleman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Mon, December 21, 2009 4:01:05 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 
  Selling

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Steve,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In an interview with one of the magazines that was a 
  predecessor to "Model Retailer" back in 1961, Irv Athearn said that the Hi-F 
  drive was developed to provide a very low-cost drive for new model 
  railroaders. Irv was not only a good modeler, but also a sharp businessman. In 
  the 1950s, the majority of new model railroaders were in their late teens 
  through late twenties and were 'poor.' The competition for Athearn was from 
  established companies like Hobbytown and Penn Line who made excellent, but 
  relatively expensive gear drives. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The Hustler in particular was 
  designed as an entry level train set loco that would get someone into the 
  hobby in HO for under $12 -- which was the cost of the first Athearn train set 
  with a Hustler, two cars, caboose and an oval of track.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The gear drive 
  developed for Lionel was much better, but apparently didn't fit the marketing 
  plan for Athearn. Every other loco except the Hustler eventually came out in a 
  geared drive format but as far as I can tell for some reason the Hustler lived 
  and died with Hi-F.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Matt

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebu ild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > To 
  add to this, the Athearn Hustlers were always, as far as I know, belt drive 
  (Hi-F). Lionel's were, like the Marx version, gear drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  Makes me wonder why in the world Athearn didn't use the gear drive themselves, 
  if they were the ones who developed it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I recently fixed a 
  gear drive Husky for the hobby shop owner, added Kadee couplers, and gave him 
  a matching Bachmann bobber caboose (Both were Union Pacific). He is fixing to 
  sell them as a matched pair, aimed at industrial/mining/ logging 
  layouts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.5.427 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2578 - Release 
  Date: 12/20/09 19:35:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12596
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Back when the Hi-F drive first appeared, several of the HO members of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
club I was in found that the Hi-F was good for MU consists--it absorbed the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
speed differences and allowed all-powered ABBA sets--
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
in the 80's a bunch in Oregon were holding races with Hustlers--stock and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
modified classes.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Matthew" <mattjcoleman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 1:01 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> In an interview with one of the magazines that was a predecessor to "Model 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Retailer" back in 1961, Irv Athearn said that the Hi-F drive was developed 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> to provide a very low-cost drive for new model railroaders. Irv was not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> only a good modeler, but also a sharp businessman. In the 1950s, the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> majority of new model railroaders were in their late teens through late 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> twenties and were 'poor.' The competition for Athearn was from established 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> companies like Hobbytown and Penn Line who made excellent, but relatively 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> expensive gear drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The Hustler in particular was designed as an entry level train set loco 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> that would get someone into the hobby in HO for under $12 -- which was the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> cost of the first Athearn train set with a Hustler, two cars, caboose and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> an oval of track.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The gear drive developed for Lionel was much better, but apparently didn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> fit the marketing plan for Athearn. Every other loco except the Hustler 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> eventually came out in a geared drive format but as far as I can tell for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> some reason the Hustler lived and died with Hi-F.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> To add to this, the Athearn Hustlers were always, as far as I know, belt 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> drive (Hi-F). Lionel's were, like the Marx version, gear drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Makes me wonder why in the world Athearn didn't use the gear drive 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> themselves, if they were the ones who developed it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> I recently fixed a gear drive Husky for the hobby shop owner, added Kadee 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> couplers, and gave him a matching Bachmann bobber caboose (Both were 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Union Pacific). He is fixing to sell them as a matched pair, aimed at 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> industrial/mining/logging layouts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Version: 8.5.427 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2578 - Release Date: 12/20/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
19:35:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12597
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Nelson B wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > I've always wanted to know; how did the Huskys run? Were they geared
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> for a reasonable speed, or mach 6?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      This one runs like a slot car.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Keep staring ... I may do a trick.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12598
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Megow PRR Coach
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Just spotted this nicely built example of a Megow 75' PRR coach on eBay, Item number: 370309128337  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://tinyurl.com/yaa8mp6
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
or
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370309128337&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12599
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I can verify the running characteristics of three or four Hi-F powered units MU'd.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have a very nicely custom painted SF Warbonnet ABBA set, the paint job in wonderful. When I got them, there was one powered unit and three dummies. Powered the dummies like the powered A unit - Hi-F, and they run like a dream. Plus, they are earlier mechanisms with brass wheels, and all make a nice 'ozone' smell when ran.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Also got an ABB set of Milwaukee Road F-7s, and they don't jackrabbit like a single Geep does.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Mon, 12/21/09, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Monday, December
 21, 2009, 10:25 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  





 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Back when the Hi-F drive first appeared, several of the HO members of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
club I was in found that the Hi-F was good for MU consists--it absorbed the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
speed differences and allowed all-powered ABBA sets--
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
in the 80's a bunch in Oregon were holding races with Hustlers--stock and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
modified classes.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Matthew" <mattjcoleman@ aim.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 1:01 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Steve,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> In an interview with one of the magazines that was a predecessor to "Model 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Retailer" back in 1961, Irv Athearn said that the Hi-F drive was developed 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> to provide a very low-cost drive for new model railroaders. Irv was not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> only a good modeler, but also a sharp businessman. In the 1950s, the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> majority of new model railroaders were in their late teens through late 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> twenties and were 'poor.' The competition for Athearn was from established 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> companies like Hobbytown and Penn Line who made excellent, but relatively 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> expensive gear drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The Hustler in particular was designed as an entry level train set loco 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> that would get someone into the hobby in HO for under $12 -- which was the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> cost of the first Athearn train set with a Hustler, two cars, caboose and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> an oval of track.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The gear drive developed for Lionel was much better, but apparently didn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> fit the marketing plan for Athearn. Every other loco except the Hustler 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> eventually came out in a geared drive format but as far as I can tell for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> some reason the Hustler lived and died with Hi-F.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Stephen Neubaum 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> <computersystemrebu ild@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> To add to this, the Athearn Hustlers were always, as far as I know, belt 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> drive (Hi-F). Lionel's were, like the Marx version, gear drive.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Makes me wonder why in the world Athearn didn't use the gear drive 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> themselves, if they were the ones who developed it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> I recently fixed a gear drive Husky for the hobby shop owner, added Kadee 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> couplers, and gave him a matching Bachmann bobber caboose (Both were 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Union Pacific). He is fixing to sell them as a matched pair, aimed at 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> industrial/mining/ logging layouts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Version: 8.5.427 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2578 - Release Date: 12/20/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
19:35:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     



 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12600
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


  
  

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Also, it is the most "crude", shall
we say, offering of a brass challenger that I have ever seen a picture
of.  That's what makes me think it is very, very early in the history
of imported brass models and more at the end of  the spectrum where IMP
and M.B. austin were and not LMB and especially not Tenshodo.  It
doesn't even have the boiler feed pipe and check valves and the number
boards are flat slabs.  This is pretty basic.  I also don't think it is
the LMB that is mentioned below.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Re crude ... some of the early Tenshodo models were **very ** crude by
todays standards... maybe even more than the Challenger in question.
Nevertheless they often sell at top prices. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  "Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon" 1974
has these listingsfor the "early type 3900 class Challenger" (I listed
all years):
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  M. B. Austin 1958 Qty: 30, 6 wheel
powered
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM 1955-58; rumored a few were made
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  LMB 1960 Qty: ?, 6 wheel powered
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Olympic Express 1960
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Balboa 1964 50 pcs
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
One of the main spotting features are the sander pipes -- there are
several variations from one manufacturer to the others, International
omitted them entirely ( If my guess that both mine and Michael's are
Internationals. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  There is a photo of the Olympic
Express engine and it has better detail.  Also, it has a headlight on
smokebox front.  Probably ALL models of the "early" challengers are
like that so that probably isn't a worthwhile spotting feature)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
They all look that way, and all have this style of tender. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  The 2009 "Brass Model Trains Price & Data Guide" shows:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  IMP   Year: ? Qty: ? Painted, wood box
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  IMP   Year: ? Qty: ? Unpainted, velvet box
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: 1  1954  Hand built
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: 2  1955  Hand built - hand filed drivers -
semi-vanderbilt tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: 7  1956  Hand built - hand filed drivers -
semi-vanderbilt tender
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: 6  1957  Hand built - hand scribed serial #s
on top of rear fram & or under the pilot
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
As we are talking about a model that shows up quite often its unlikely
its a PFM ... however it is possible all or at least several those came
from the same factory. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  MBA (M .B. Austin)  Qty: 30  1958  Unpainted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: ?  1959 
Semi-vanderbilt tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  For the IMP ones listed in this
book, I don't know if it is the "early" style or not.  But the
description of wood and velvet boxes might be useful if you have a
box.  And while no year listed, they are probably in the 1950's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
The 1956 Imperial catalog definitely shows a picture of an early
Challenger. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think it is very unlikely that
this is scratchbuilt.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  My guess is that it is probably
either the IMP or M. B. Austin (and these might very well have come
from the same place anyway) if only the rear engine is powered.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
At least my loco, which is apparently identical to Michael's , has both
engines powered. Doesnt look as this was a later modification. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chuck, from your post I guess you havent read my previous message ( the
one with the attachments showing my Challenger) - wonder if it got lost
somehow? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Just found a picture of an Tenshodo Challenger.... attached. It matches
the picture in PFM catalog #1. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12601
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Megow PRR Coach
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  W Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Nice to hear from you. I 
looked at the Megow coach. It's pretty nice with all the under floor detail. The 
interior looks well done too.  As passenger cars are third behind 
steam and diesel for the collection I will have to pass on this. I've been using 
my train funds for buying kits to build for my unfinished layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      With the holidays and the 
anticipated birth ( Jan 7 ) of our first grandchild have put a hold on things 
for now. After New Years I'll start again. Have been helping Larry Stevenson / 
HOseeker site improve his Gallery section. Anyone is welcome to add to 
it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      To you and yours plus all 
members Happy Holidays. For all who observe it Merry Christmas and a Healthy 
Happy New Year.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 1:31 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Megow PRR 
Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H., All,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just spotted this nicely built example of a Megow 
  75' PRR coach on eBay, Item number: 370309128337 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://tinyurl. com/yaa8mp6

                                                                                                                                                                                                  or

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=37030912833 7&ssPageName= ADME:B:SS: US:1123

                                                                                                                                                                                                  W 
  Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12602
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Megow PRR Coach
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I could just cry.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Got a few Megow coaches as it is, and was thinking of finding one more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  BUT, I am in the process of closing my eBay account. Without going into too much detail, it has been more frustration and headaches than it is worth, and I am voting with my feet, and closing my account.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, at least it gives me ideas for the two I have already.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  So far as antique trains, I decided that the hundreds (yes, literally hundreds) of unfinished cars and locomotives I have here are enough to keep me busy, what with getting a new cat, plus a 53' truck load of computers being given to me for my shop to sell.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Besides, I am going back to the old ways of finding antique trains - and greatly enjoying the hunt in non-local hobby shops and train shows.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Now, to dig out the Walthers trucks
 I have on hand and put them under one of the Megow coaches I am restoring.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Mon, 12/21/09, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Megow PRR Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Monday, December 21, 2009, 12:31 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  





 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Just spotted this nicely built example of a Megow 75' PRR coach on eBay, Item number: 370309128337  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://tinyurl. com/yaa8mp6
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
or
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=37030912833 7&ssPageName= ADME:B:SS: US:1123
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     



 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12603
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Megow PRR Coach
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays to all,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Nice Megow coach there. Happens I built a kit 
like this just a few months ago after obtaining it from eBay. I have no 
interior details, and I don't want to tear this one apart to add details now. 
It's a gem as it is! It has the original Megow 4 wheel trucks and 
not the 6 wheel ones like the one on eBay. Not sure if all Megow Pennsy 
coaches were the same type, but this one (Kit Q27) is of a car that Pennsy 
built only a couple of as an experiment. Odd that Megow whould pick that one I 
guess. . . .
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Art W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 12/21/2009 3:34:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
jimheck@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  W Jay W, All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                       Nice to hear from you. I 
  looked at the Megow coach. It's pretty nice with all the under floor detail. 
  The interior looks well done too.  As passenger cars are third 
  behind steam and diesel for the collection I will have to pass on this. I've 
  been using my train funds for buying kits to build for my unfinished 
  layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      With the holidays and the 
  anticipated birth ( Jan 7 ) of our first grandchild have put a hold on things 
  for now. After New Years I'll start again. Have been helping Larry Stevenson / 
  HOseeker site improve his Gallery section. Anyone is welcome to add to 
  it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      To you and yours plus all 
  members Happy Holidays. For all who observe it Merry Christmas and a Healthy 
  Happy New Year.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
  Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 1:31 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Megow PRR 
    Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H., All,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just spotted this nicely built example of a Megow 
    75' PRR coach on eBay, Item number: 370309128337 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://tinyurl. com/yaa8mp6

                                                                                                                                                                                                  or

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=37030912833 7&ssPageName= ADME:B:SS: US:1123

                                                                                                                                                                                                  W 
    Jay W.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12604
						From: trainliker
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yes.  Compared to today's standards early Tenshodo (and I have some) is "crude".  So is early everything.  But I have yet to see one quite as basic as the IMP.  That doesn't mean they don't exist.  I've just never seen one.  I'm always open to be shown some source to prove it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Also, it is the most "crude", shall we say, offering of a brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > challenger that I have ever seen a picture of.  That's what makes me 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > think it is very, very early in the history of imported brass models 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > and more at the end of  the spectrum where IMP and M.B. austin were 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > and not LMB and especially not Tenshodo.  It doesn't even have the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > boiler feed pipe and check valves and the number boards are flat 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > slabs.  This is pretty basic.  I also don't think it is the LMB that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > is mentioned below.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Re crude ... some of the early Tenshodo models were **very ** crude by 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> todays standards... maybe even more than the Challenger in question. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Nevertheless they often sell at top prices.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > "Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon" 1974 has these listingsfor the "early 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > type 3900 class Challenger" (I listed all years):
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > M. B. Austin 1958 Qty: 30, 6 wheel powered
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > PFM 1955-58; rumored a few were made
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > LMB 1960 Qty: ?, 6 wheel powered
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Olympic Express 1960
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Balboa 1964 50 pcs
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> One of the main spotting features are the sander pipes -- there are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> several variations from one manufacturer to the others, International 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> omitted them entirely ( If my guess that both mine and Michael's are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Internationals.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > There is a photo of the Olympic Express engine and it has better 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > detail.  Also, it has a headlight on smokebox front.  Probably ALL 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > models of the "early" challengers are like that so that probably isn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > a worthwhile spotting feature)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> They all look that way, and all have this style of tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > The 2009 "Brass Model Trains Price & Data Guide" shows:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > IMP   Year: ? Qty: ? Painted, wood box
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > IMP   Year: ? Qty: ? Unpainted, velvet box
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: 1  1954  Hand built
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: 2  1955  Hand built - hand filed drivers - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > semi-vanderbilt tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: 7  1956  Hand built - hand filed drivers - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > semi-vanderbilt tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: 6  1957  Hand built - hand scribed serial #s on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > top of rear fram & or under the pilot
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> As we are talking about a model that shows up quite often its unlikely 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> its a PFM ... however it is possible all or at least several those came 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> from the same factory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > MBA (M .B. Austin)  Qty: 30  1958  Unpainted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: ?  1959  Semi-vanderbilt tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > For the IMP ones listed in this book, I don't know if it is the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > "early" style or not.  But the description of wood and velvet boxes 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > might be useful if you have a box.  And while no year listed, they are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > probably in the 1950's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The 1956 Imperial catalog definitely shows a picture of an early 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Challenger.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I think it is very unlikely that this is scratchbuilt.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > My guess is that it is probably either the IMP or M. B. Austin (and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > these might very well have come from the same place anyway) if only 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > the rear engine is powered.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> At least my loco, which is apparently identical to Michael's , has both 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> engines powered. Doesnt look as this was a later modification.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Chuck, from your post I guess you havent read my previous message ( the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> one with the attachments showing my Challenger) - wonder if it got lost 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> somehow?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Just found a picture of an Tenshodo Challenger.... attached. It matches 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the picture in PFM catalog #1.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12605
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Megow PRR Coach
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm sorely tempted, if only so the one I have wouldn't be an "only child" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
:-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 2:33 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Megow PRR Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
W Jay W, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     Nice to hear from you. I looked at the Megow coach. It's pretty nice 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
with all the under floor detail. The interior looks well done too.  As 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
passenger cars are third behind steam and diesel for the collection I will 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
have to pass on this. I've been using my train funds for buying kits to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
build for my unfinished layout.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    With the holidays and the anticipated birth ( Jan 7 ) of our first 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
grandchild have put a hold on things for now. After New Years I'll start 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
again. Have been helping Larry Stevenson / HOseeker site improve his Gallery 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
section. Anyone is welcome to add to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    To you and yours plus all members Happy Holidays. For all who observe it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Merry Christmas and a Healthy Happy New Year.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
       Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  From: the_plainsman
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 1:31 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Subject: [vintageHO] Megow PRR Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Hi Jim H., All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Just spotted this nicely built example of a Megow 75' PRR coach on eBay, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Item number: 370309128337
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://tinyurl.com/yaa8mp6
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  or
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370309128337&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  W Jay W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12606
						From: bongiovanni12001
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I get this list in digest form, and was all set to provide my guess, but Gerold and my friend Chuck Kinzer beat me to it.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If If If I'm looking at the pictures correctly, both engines are powered.  IIRC, again, M B Austin and another importer (a So Cal hobby shop??)split an order of c24 of these in the mid-late 1950's. I had one that was thought to be an Austin pass through my hands about 35 years ago, and the pictures sure look like my memory of that.  If I had to bet, I'd say M B Austin, rather than LMB.  If you really need better info, there are two brass lists where real experts reside.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
And from what I recall, it was ahead of it's time in detail, had reasonable running characteristics, and is worth more than you might think to the collectors of early brass.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thank you for posting the pictures and provoking this discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Frank Bongiovanni (returning to work on some Akane).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainliker" <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yes.  Compared to today's standards early Tenshodo (and I have some) is "crude".  So is early everything.  But I have yet to see one quite as basic as the IMP.  That doesn't mean they don't exist.  I've just never seen one.  I'm always open to be shown some source to prove it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > Also, it is the most "crude", shall we say, offering of a brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > challenger that I have ever seen a picture of.  That's what makes me 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > think it is very, very early in the history of imported brass models 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > and more at the end of  the spectrum where IMP and M.B. austin were 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > and not LMB and especially not Tenshodo.  It doesn't even have the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > boiler feed pipe and check valves and the number boards are flat 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > slabs.  This is pretty basic.  I also don't think it is the LMB that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > is mentioned below.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Re crude ... some of the early Tenshodo models were **very ** crude by 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > todays standards... maybe even more than the Challenger in question. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Nevertheless they often sell at top prices.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > "Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon" 1974 has these listingsfor the "early 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > type 3900 class Challenger" (I listed all years):
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > M. B. Austin 1958 Qty: 30, 6 wheel powered
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > PFM 1955-58; rumored a few were made
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > LMB 1960 Qty: ?, 6 wheel powered
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > Olympic Express 1960
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > Balboa 1964 50 pcs
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > One of the main spotting features are the sander pipes -- there are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > several variations from one manufacturer to the others, International 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > omitted them entirely ( If my guess that both mine and Michael's are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Internationals.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > There is a photo of the Olympic Express engine and it has better 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > detail.  Also, it has a headlight on smokebox front.  Probably ALL 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > models of the "early" challengers are like that so that probably isn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > a worthwhile spotting feature)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > They all look that way, and all have this style of tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > The 2009 "Brass Model Trains Price & Data Guide" shows:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > IMP   Year: ? Qty: ? Painted, wood box
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > IMP   Year: ? Qty: ? Unpainted, velvet box
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: 1  1954  Hand built
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: 2  1955  Hand built - hand filed drivers - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > semi-vanderbilt tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: 7  1956  Hand built - hand filed drivers - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > semi-vanderbilt tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: 6  1957  Hand built - hand scribed serial #s on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > top of rear fram & or under the pilot
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > As we are talking about a model that shows up quite often its unlikely 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > its a PFM ... however it is possible all or at least several those came 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > from the same factory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > MBA (M .B. Austin)  Qty: 30  1958  Unpainted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > PFM  Tenshodo  Qty: ?  1959  Semi-vanderbilt tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > For the IMP ones listed in this book, I don't know if it is the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > "early" style or not.  But the description of wood and velvet boxes 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > might be useful if you have a box.  And while no year listed, they are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > probably in the 1950's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > The 1956 Imperial catalog definitely shows a picture of an early 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Challenger.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > I think it is very unlikely that this is scratchbuilt.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > My guess is that it is probably either the IMP or M. B. Austin (and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > these might very well have come from the same place anyway) if only 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > the rear engine is powered.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > At least my loco, which is apparently identical to Michael's , has both 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > engines powered. Doesnt look as this was a later modification.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Chuck, from your post I guess you havent read my previous message ( the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > one with the attachments showing my Challenger) - wonder if it got lost 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > somehow?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Just found a picture of an Tenshodo Challenger.... attached. It matches 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > the picture in PFM catalog #1.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12607
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


  

 
Hey folks...  Please do not forget that I am looking for an
Allegheny pilot and front porch from any source.  My Akane 2-6-6-6 is
missing the pilot and porch.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
=================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
bongiovanni12001 wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I get this list in digest form, and was all set to provide my guess,
but Gerold and my friend Chuck Kinzer beat me to it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If If If I'm looking at the pictures correctly, both engines are
powered. IIRC, again, M B Austin and another importer (a So Cal hobby
shop??)split an order of c24 of these in the mid-late 1950's. I had one
that was thought to be an Austin pass through my hands about 35 years
ago, and the pictures sure look like my memory of that. If I had to
bet, I'd say M B Austin, rather than LMB. If you really need better
info, there are two brass lists where real experts reside.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
And from what I recall, it was ahead of it's time in detail, had
reasonable running characteristics, and is worth more than you might
think to the collectors of early brass.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thank you for posting the pictures and provoking this discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Frank Bongiovanni (returning to work on some Akane).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12608
						From: Thomas Parsons
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I would like to bid on the batch of old steam engines but I don't have pay pal. If I were to win would you accept a postal money order?  Tom Parsons

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Sun, 12/20/09, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 2:15 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've put a few items up on eBay that may or may not be of interest 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  to the members of the list. The two 0-6-0s that you helped me identify 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are included in one set along with an Aristocraft/ New One 4-4-0 and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mantua 0-4-0 tank engine. In two other auctions I have an Athearn Hi-F 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  GP painted for UP, and a Lionel Hustler painted for the Air Force. These 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are the links:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=26052614809 4&ssPageName= STRK:MESELX: IT

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=26052615044 1&ssPageName= STRK:MESELX: IT

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=26052652094 9&ssPageName= STRK:MESELX: IT

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The Lionel Hustler seems to be drawing particular interest. My eBay 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  says there are 17 Watchers picked up in the past 24 hours since I listed it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -- 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Rick Jones

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If patience is a virtue and ignorance is bliss, you can have a
                                                                                                                                                                                                  pretty good life if you're stupid and willing to wait.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12609
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Both of the underside closeup photos of an engine 
seem to be of the rear engine.  So I don't think it can be determined from 
the photos if the front engine is powered.  It would help to 
know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck K.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 4:48 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Brass 
  Engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I get this list in digest form, and was all set to provide my 
  guess, but Gerold and my friend Chuck Kinzer beat me to it. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If If If 
  I'm looking at the pictures correctly, both engines are powered. IIRC, again, 
  M B Austin and another importer (a So Cal hobby shop??)split an order of c24 
  of these in the mid-late 1950's. I had one that was thought to be an Austin 
  pass through my hands about 35 years ago, and the pictures sure look like my 
  memory of that. If I had to bet, I'd say M B Austin, rather than LMB. If you 
  really need better info, there are two brass lists where real experts 
  reside.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  And from what I recall, it was ahead of it's time in detail, 
  had reasonable running characteristics, and is worth more than you might think 
  to the collectors of early brass.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thank you for posting the pictures 
  and provoking this discussion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Frank Bongiovanni (returning to work on 
  some Akane).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  "trainliker" <ckinzer@... > wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Yes. Compared to 
  today's standards early Tenshodo (and I have some) is "crude". So is early 
  everything. But I have yet to see one quite as basic as the IMP. That doesn't 
  mean they don't exist. I've just never seen one. I'm always open to be shown 
  some source to prove it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Gerold Eckl <corv8@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Also, it is the most "crude", shall we say, offering of a 
  brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > challenger that I have ever seen a picture of. That's 
  what makes me 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > think it is very, very early in the history 
  of imported brass models 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > and more at the end of the 
  spectrum where IMP and M.B. austin were 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > and not LMB and 
  especially not Tenshodo. It doesn't even have the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > boiler 
  feed pipe and check valves and the number boards are flat 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
  slabs. This is pretty basic. I also don't think it is the LMB that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > > is mentioned below.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Re crude ... some of the early 
  Tenshodo models were **very ** crude by 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > todays standards... 
  maybe even more than the Challenger in question. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Nevertheless 
  they often sell at top prices.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > "Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon" 1974 has these 
  listingsfor the "early 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > type 3900 class Challenger" (I 
  listed all years):
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > M. B. Austin 1958 Qty: 
  30, 6 wheel powered
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > PFM 1955-58; rumored 
  a few were made
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > LMB 1960 Qty: ?, 6 wheel 
  powered
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Olympic Express 1960
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Balboa 1964 50 pcs
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > One of the main 
  spotting features are the sander pipes -- there are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > several 
  variations from one manufacturer to the others, International 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  omitted them entirely ( If my guess that both mine and Michael's are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > Internationals.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > There is a 
  photo of the Olympic Express engine and it has better 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
  detail. Also, it has a headlight on smokebox front. Probably ALL 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  > models of the "early" challengers are like that so that probably isn't 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > a worthwhile spotting feature)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > They all look 
  that way, and all have this style of tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > The 2009 "Brass Model Trains Price & Data Guide" 
  shows:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > IMP Year: ? Qty: ? Painted, wood 
  box
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > IMP Year: ? Qty: ? Unpainted, velvet box
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  > PFM Tenshodo Qty: 1 1954 Hand built
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > PFM Tenshodo Qty: 2 
  1955 Hand built - hand filed drivers - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > semi-vanderbilt 
  tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > PFM Tenshodo Qty: 7 1956 Hand built - hand filed 
  drivers - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > semi-vanderbilt tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > PFM 
  Tenshodo Qty: 6 1957 Hand built - hand scribed serial #s on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
  top of rear fram & or under the pilot
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > As we are talking about 
  a model that shows up quite often its unlikely 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > its a PFM ... 
  however it is possible all or at least several those came 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > from 
  the same factory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > MBA (M .B. Austin) Qty: 30 1958 
  Unpainted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > PFM Tenshodo Qty: ? 1959 Semi-vanderbilt 
  tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > For the IMP ones listed in this 
  book, I don't know if it is the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > "early" style or not. But 
  the description of wood and velvet boxes 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > might be useful if 
  you have a box. And while no year listed, they are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > probably 
  in the 1950's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > The 1956 Imperial catalog definitely shows a 
  picture of an early 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Challenger.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
  > I think it is very unlikely that this is scratchbuilt.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > My guess is that it is probably either the IMP or M. B. 
  Austin (and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > these might very well have come from the same 
  place anyway) if only 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > the rear engine is powered.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > At least my loco, which is apparently identical to Michael's , has both 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > engines powered. Doesnt look as this was a later 
  modification.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Chuck, from your post I guess you 
  havent read my previous message ( the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > one with the attachments 
  showing my Challenger) - wonder if it got lost 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > somehow?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Just found a picture of 
  an Tenshodo Challenger.. .. attached. It matches 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the picture 
  in PFM catalog #1.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12610
						From: Michael G. Allman
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ok, I am adding the photos of the front drive train.  It is also
powered.  I have also include pictures of the box.  The only marking is on the
bottom saying "Made in Japan".
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Notice in the box, the bag of coal for the tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Someone mentioned another forum with more experts?  Where might I
go next to get further info?
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Michael Allman
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ckinzer@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Brass Engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Both
of the underside closeup photos of an engine seem to be of the rear
engine.  So I don't think it can be determined from the photos if
the front engine is powered.  It would help to know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck
K.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  -----
Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  






                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, December 21,
2009 4:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old
Brass Engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I get this list in digest form, and was all set to provide my guess, but Gerold
and my friend Chuck Kinzer beat me to it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If If If I'm looking at the pictures correctly, both engines are powered. IIRC,
again, M B Austin and another importer (a So Cal hobby shop??)split an order of
c24 of these in the mid-late 1950's. I had one that was thought to be an Austin
pass through my hands about 35 years ago, and the pictures sure look like my
memory of that. If I had to bet, I'd say M B Austin, rather than LMB. If you
really need better info, there are two brass lists where real experts reside.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
And from what I recall, it was ahead of it's time in detail, had reasonable
running characteristics, and is worth more than you might think to the
collectors of early brass.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thank you for posting the pictures and provoking this discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Frank Bongiovanni (returning to work on some Akane).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com,
"trainliker" <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yes. Compared to today's standards early Tenshodo (and I have some) is
"crude". So is early everything. But I have yet to see one quite as
basic as the IMP. That doesn't mean they don't exist. I've just never seen one.
I'm always open to be shown some source to prove it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com,
Gerold Eckl <corv8@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > Also, it is the most "crude", shall we say, offering
of a brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > challenger that I have ever seen a picture of. That's what makes
me 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > think it is very, very early in the history of imported brass
models 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > and more at the end of the spectrum where IMP and M.B. austin
were 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > and not LMB and especially not Tenshodo. It doesn't even have
the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > boiler feed pipe and check valves and the number boards are flat

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > slabs. This is pretty basic. I also don't think it is the LMB
that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > is mentioned below.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Re crude ... some of the early Tenshodo models were **very ** crude
by 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > todays standards... maybe even more than the Challenger in question. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Nevertheless they often sell at top prices.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > "Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon" 1974 has these
listingsfor the "early 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > type 3900 class Challenger" (I listed all years):
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > M. B. Austin 1958 Qty: 30, 6 wheel powered
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > PFM 1955-58; rumored a few were made
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > LMB 1960 Qty: ?, 6 wheel powered
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > Olympic Express 1960
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > Balboa 1964 50 pcs
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > One of the main spotting features are the sander pipes -- there are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > several variations from one manufacturer to the others, International

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > omitted them entirely ( If my guess that both mine and Michael's are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Internationals.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > There is a photo of the Olympic Express engine and it has better

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > detail. Also, it has a headlight on smokebox front. Probably ALL

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > models of the "early" challengers are like that so
that probably isn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > a worthwhile spotting feature)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > They all look that way, and all have this style of tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > The 2009 "Brass Model Trains Price & Data Guide"
shows:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > IMP Year: ? Qty: ? Painted, wood box
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > IMP Year: ? Qty: ? Unpainted, velvet box
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > PFM Tenshodo Qty: 1 1954 Hand built
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > PFM Tenshodo Qty: 2 1955 Hand built - hand filed drivers - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > semi-vanderbilt tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > PFM Tenshodo Qty: 7 1956 Hand built - hand filed drivers - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > semi-vanderbilt tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > PFM Tenshodo Qty: 6 1957 Hand built - hand scribed serial #s on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > top of rear fram & or under the pilot
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > As we are talking about a model that shows up quite often its
unlikely 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > its a PFM ... however it is possible all or at least several those
came 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > from the same factory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > MBA (M .B. Austin) Qty: 30 1958 Unpainted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > PFM Tenshodo Qty: ? 1959 Semi-vanderbilt tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > For the IMP ones listed in this book, I don't know if it is the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > "early" style or not. But the description of wood and
velvet boxes 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > might be useful if you have a box. And while no year listed,
they are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > probably in the 1950's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > The 1956 Imperial catalog definitely shows a picture of an early 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Challenger.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > I think it is very unlikely that this is scratchbuilt.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > My guess is that it is probably either the IMP or M. B. Austin
(and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > these might very well have come from the same place anyway) if
only 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > the rear engine is powered.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > At least my loco, which is apparently identical to Michael's , has
both 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > engines powered. Doesnt look as this was a later modification.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Chuck, from your post I guess you havent read my previous message (
the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > one with the attachments showing my Challenger) - wonder if it got
lost 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > somehow?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Just found a picture of an Tenshodo Challenger.... attached. It
matches 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > the picture in PFM catalog #1.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12611
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 12/21/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thomas Parsons wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I would like to bid on the batch of old steam engines but I don't have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> pay pal. If I were to win would you accept a postal money order?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Unfortunately no. They've made it very difficult to go any other 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
route than Paypal or credit cards. Too many complaints about fraudulent 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
payments I guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Stress is when you wake up screaming and then you realize you
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
haven't fallen asleep yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12612
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, if we can trust the guide books, that rules 
out M. B. Austin and LMB and tends to further confirm IMP.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The 2009 guide gives it a "current value" of 
$600.  (Same outfit that has www.brassguide.com)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck K.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 9:16 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Old Brass 
  Engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ok, I am 
  adding the photos of the front drive train.  It is also powered.  I 
  have also include pictures of the box.  The only marking is on the bottom 
  saying "Made in Japan".
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Notice in the 
  box, the bag of coal for the tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Someone 
  mentioned another forum with more experts?  Where might I go next to get 
  further info?
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Michael 
  Allman
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com 
  [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of 
  ckinzer@att. net
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:01 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: 
  [vintageHO] Re: Old Brass Engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Both of the underside closeup 
  photos of an engine seem to be of the rear engine.  So I don't think it 
  can be determined from the photos if the front engine is powered.  
  It would help to know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck 
  K.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message 
    ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
     
     
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 4:48 
    PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Brass 
    Engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I get this list in digest form, and was all set to provide my 
    guess, but Gerold and my friend Chuck Kinzer beat me to it. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If If If 
    I'm looking at the pictures correctly, both engines are powered. IIRC, 
    again, M B Austin and another importer (a So Cal hobby shop??)split an order 
    of c24 of these in the mid-late 1950's. I had one that was thought to be an 
    Austin pass through my hands about 35 years ago, and the pictures sure look 
    like my memory of that. If I had to bet, I'd say M B Austin, rather than 
    LMB. If you really need better info, there are two brass lists where real 
    experts reside.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  And from what I recall, it was ahead of it's time in 
    detail, had reasonable running characteristics, and is worth more than you 
    might think to the collectors of early brass.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thank you for posting 
    the pictures and provoking this discussion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Frank Bongiovanni 
    (returning to work on some Akane).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
    "trainliker" <ckinzer@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Yes. Compared to 
    today's standards early Tenshodo (and I have some) is "crude". So is early 
    everything. But I have yet to see one quite as basic as the IMP. That 
    doesn't mean they don't exist. I've just never seen one. I'm always open to 
    be shown some source to prove it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
    Gerold Eckl <corv8@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Also, it is the most "crude", shall we say, offering 
    of a brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > challenger that I have ever seen a picture of. 
    That's what makes me 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > think it is very, very early in the 
    history of imported brass models 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > and more at the end of 
    the spectrum where IMP and M.B. austin were 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > and not LMB 
    and especially not Tenshodo. It doesn't even have the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
    boiler feed pipe and check valves and the number boards are flat 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
    > > slabs. This is pretty basic. I also don't think it is the LMB that 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > is mentioned below.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Re crude ... some of the 
    early Tenshodo models were **very ** crude by 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > todays 
    standards... maybe even more than the Challenger in question. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
    Nevertheless they often sell at top prices.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > "Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon" 
    1974 has these listingsfor the "early 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > type 3900 class 
    Challenger" (I listed all years):
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > M. B. 
    Austin 1958 Qty: 30, 6 wheel powered
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
    PFM 1955-58; rumored a few were made
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
    LMB 1960 Qty: ?, 6 wheel powered
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
    Olympic Express 1960
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > Balboa 1964 50 
    pcs
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > One of the main spotting features are the sander pipes -- 
    there are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > several variations from one manufacturer to the 
    others, International 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > omitted them entirely ( If my guess that 
    both mine and Michael's are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Internationals.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > There is a photo of the Olympic Express 
    engine and it has better 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > detail. Also, it has a headlight 
    on smokebox front. Probably ALL 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > models of the "early" 
    challengers are like that so that probably isn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > a 
    worthwhile spotting feature)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > They all look that way, and all 
    have this style of tender.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
    > > The 2009 "Brass Model Trains Price & Data Guide" 
    shows:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > IMP Year: ? Qty: ? Painted, wood 
    box
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > IMP Year: ? Qty: ? Unpainted, velvet box
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
    > PFM Tenshodo Qty: 1 1954 Hand built
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > PFM Tenshodo Qty: 
    2 1955 Hand built - hand filed drivers - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > semi-vanderbilt 
    tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > PFM Tenshodo Qty: 7 1956 Hand built - hand filed 
    drivers - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > semi-vanderbilt tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > PFM 
    Tenshodo Qty: 6 1957 Hand built - hand scribed serial #s on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
    > top of rear fram & or under the pilot
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > As we are 
    talking about a model that shows up quite often its unlikely 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
    its a PFM ... however it is possible all or at least several those came 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > from the same factory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > MBA (M .B. Austin) 
    Qty: 30 1958 Unpainted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > PFM Tenshodo Qty: ? 1959 
    Semi-vanderbilt tender
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > For the IMP ones 
    listed in this book, I don't know if it is the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > "early" 
    style or not. But the description of wood and velvet boxes 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
    > might be useful if you have a box. And while no year listed, they are 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > probably in the 1950's.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > The 1956 Imperial 
    catalog definitely shows a picture of an early 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
    Challenger.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > I think it is very unlikely 
    that this is scratchbuilt.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > My guess is 
    that it is probably either the IMP or M. B. Austin (and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > > 
    these might very well have come from the same place anyway) if only 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
    > > the rear engine is powered.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > At least my loco, which 
    is apparently identical to Michael's , has both 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > engines 
    powered. Doesnt look as this was a later modification.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
    > Chuck, from your post I guess you havent read my previous message ( the 
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > one with the attachments showing my Challenger) - wonder if it 
    got lost 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > somehow?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Just found a picture of an Tenshodo Challenger.. .. 
    attached. It matches 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > the picture in PFM catalog #1.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
    > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12613
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


  
  

 
Rick Jones wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thomas Parsons wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I would like to bid on the batch of old steam engines but I don't
have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> pay pal. If I were to win would you accept a postal money order?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Unfortunately no. They've made it very difficult to go any other 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
route than Paypal or credit cards. Too many complaints about fraudulent
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
payments I guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Hi Rick , Hi Tom, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
there shouldnt be any problem.  Ebay forces sellers to accept Paypal
only to maximize revenue ... if Tom sends pament in cash, by MO or
picks up in person and you simply mark the item "paid" then everything
is done. I do this quite often. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Please : I dont want to start a new ebay discussion but find it very
frustrating that this crooks make it increasingly difficult for us to
deal with each other , and contact each other. Under the banner of
fraud prevention they simply find ways to press more money out of every
transaction. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12614
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  ckinzer@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Well, if we can trust the guide books, that rules out M. B. Austin and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> LMB and tends to further confirm IMP.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The 2009 guide gives it a "current value" of $600.  (Same outfit that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> has www.brassguide.com)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Chuck K.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ok, re the 2009 guide .... the author is Dan Glasure ( whom I respect as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
a honest person , I have bought from him when he was still a small 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
father and son business and I was always highly satisfied with his service)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
So, as he is dealing with used brass, its only natural he will push 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
prices with every means ... including overevaluation of each and every 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
model... To some degree, this seems to have worked as I often notice 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
that locos on his website are sold at exorbitant prices while similar 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
ones at ebay go much lower.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 One of the main topics in his book that goes through all interviews of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
brass importers, is the statement " brass is art" ... he even says that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
it is necessary to interest a newer clientel , like watch / art 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
collectors for brass models to keep brass manufacturers / importers in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
business as they no longer can sell enough models at the todays 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
prices.... From his point of view, a smart idea ... however for us 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
collectors of vintage (brass) locos a potential problem as this might 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
bring certain models out of reach for people with limited budget.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
as I am involved in the art/ restoration business I am rather alienated 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
by the thought of considering a new Korean brass model a piece of "Art"  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--- granted, this is a highly sophisticated and beautifully executed 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
piece of craftsmanship, but never "art" ! "Art" always has to include 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
some inspiration and individualism...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
My point of view,  would be curious what others think about this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12615
						From: Matthew
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I didn't realize the Plastic RDC was always HiF. I never owned an RDC until recently (thanks to this group I picked one up at a train show.)  Per the other comment on this, were the original metal RDC's powered differently?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I apologize if this question has been answered before.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Matt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The RDC also lived an died with the Hi F drive, even though Ernst did offer gearing kits for both.........:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12616
						From: Chris B
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  










 Matt, I have a redbox early allmetal RDC with a vertically mounted motor driving a geared truck, similar setup to many early traction drives...though the RDC truck is an enclosed gear train.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also have a fewmetal RDCs with  HI F drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From:  "Matthew" <mattjcoleman@...>

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:12:53 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Selling

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I didn't realize the Plastic RDC was always HiF. I never owned an RDC until recently (thanks to this group I picked one up at a train show.)  Per the other comment on this, were the original metal RDC's powered differently?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I apologize if this question has been answered before.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Matt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The RDC also lived an died with the Hi F drive, even though Ernst did offer gearing kits for both........ .:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     

    

 







                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12617
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Athearn RDC's, was - Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris,  Your Athearn metal-bodied RDC's having Hi-F drive may have had this 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
substituted for its original geared drive at some time in its past history. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 As for the Hi-F drive powering Athearn RDC's, Dallas Mallerich 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains) has the Hi-F drive first being introduced into 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
RDC's in 1958, in the plastic-bodied RDC-1 and RDC-3 cars.  Ray F.W. </HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12618
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Matt, Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Chris is right about the 
type of geared drives in the Athearn metal RDCs. If you would like to see them 
better go to the www.hoseeker.net site and 
go to Literature and then Athearn you will find exploded view assembly sheets 
showing this. I can send pictures of the drives if needed. I happen to have 4 
Athearn metal RDC'S. One of each type made ( RDC 1, 2 ,3 and 4). When Athearn 
went to plastic bodies with Hi- F rubber band drives only RDC 1 and 3's 
were sold. If I remember right the first plastic bodies were painted in the 
New Haven tri color scheme ( which I have ) and were the only ones like that. 
Later all were silver bodies with the different road names. Perhaps others with 
knowledge in this area can back me up or correct if needed as I am sitting here 
without books or catalogs within reach.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Also I don't remember Athearn selling 
metal RDC bodies with Hi-F RBD drives. I have to think these are a hybrid mix 
and match someone made. However as I say "Never say never" the possibility exist 
that during a transition period of metal to plastic and gear drive to RBD Hi-F 
existing stock was used up. Again others might know this answer for 
sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 4:56 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 
Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Matt, I have a redbox early allmetal RDC with a vertically mounted motor 
  driving a geared truck, similar setup to many early traction drives...though 
  the RDC truck is an enclosed gear train.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also have a fewmetal RDCs with 
  HI F drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Matthew" <mattjcoleman@ aim.com> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:12:53 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I didn't realize the Plastic RDC was always HiF. I never owned an RDC until 
  recently (thanks to this group I picked one up at a train show.) Per the other 
  comment on this, were the original metal RDC's powered differently?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I 
  apologize if this question has been answered before.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Matt

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In 
  vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Matt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The RDC also lived an died with the Hi F drive, even 
  though Ernst did offer gearing kits for both........ .:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 
  to answer life's two most important questions! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12619
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling (and Buying)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Gerold, Rick and Tom; Although signed up, I'm not active in PayPal right now, but I have still found that a high number of eBay sellers, especially indviduals as opposed to resellers, will accept alternate payment, like usps m.o.'s, if one asks ahead of the bid closing.  Alternate payment is allowed by eBay with prior permission of the seller for some reasons the last time I checked. One can still mark payment sent and follow though with your feedback. I also note that there are still some model rr eBay sellers which admantly refuse to accept PayPal and state so, one quite large.  I'm not sure about this, but the "PayPal Only" limitation might run afoul of some provisions of the Uniform Commercial Code which all fifty states have adopted in one form or another to facilitate commerce and that is why eBay still has loopholes. Even the TV hucksters that encourage you to "charge it" usually have a fine print address at the end of their spiel where payment may be sent.  W Jay W   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Rick Jones wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Thomas Parsons wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > I would like to bid on the batch of old steam engines but I don't have
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > > pay pal. If I were to win would you accept a postal money order?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Unfortunately no. They've made it very difficult to go any other
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > route than Paypal or credit cards. Too many complaints about fraudulent
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > payments I guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Rick , Hi Tom,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> there shouldnt be any problem.  Ebay forces sellers to accept Paypal 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> only to maximize revenue ... if Tom sends pament in cash, by MO or picks 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> up in person and you simply mark the item "paid" then everything is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> done. I do this quite often.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Please : I dont want to start a new ebay discussion but find it very 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> frustrating that this crooks make it increasingly difficult for us to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> deal with each other , and contact each other. Under the banner of fraud 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> prevention they simply find ways to press more money out of every 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> transaction.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12620
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have also read his thoughts on that but doubt 
that it is possible to push these things into what is normally known as the 
(high priced) "art" world.  However, he may be somewhat successful in 
increasing the "perceived value" in the minds of those not buying them for their 
"art".  And perceived value can gild the price lily.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chuck Kinzer
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 12:56 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Brass 
  Engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ckinzer@att. net wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Well, if we can trust the guide books, that rules out M. B. 
  Austin and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > LMB and tends to further confirm IMP.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The 
  2009 guide gives it a "current value" of $600. (Same outfit that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > has 
  www.brassguide. com)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Chuck K.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ok, re the 2009 guide .... the author is Dan Glasure ( 
  whom I respect as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  a honest person , I have bought from him when he was 
  still a small 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  father and son business and I was always highly satisfied 
  with his service)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  So, as he is dealing with used brass, its only 
  natural he will push 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  prices with every means ... including overevaluation 
  of each and every 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  model... To some degree, this seems to have worked as I 
  often notice 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  that locos on his website are sold at exorbitant prices while 
  similar 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ones at ebay go much lower.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  One of the main topics in his book 
  that goes through all interviews of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  brass importers, is the statement " 
  brass is art" ... he even says that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  it is necessary to interest a newer 
  clientel , like watch / art 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  collectors for brass models to keep brass 
  manufacturers / importers in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  business as they no longer can sell enough 
  models at the todays 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  prices.... From his point of view, a smart idea ... 
  however for us 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  collectors of vintage (brass) locos a potential problem as 
  this might 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  bring certain models out of reach for people with limited 
  budget.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  as I am involved in the art/ restoration business I am rather 
  alienated 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  by the thought of considering a new Korean brass model a piece 
  of "Art" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- granted, this is a highly sophisticated and beautifully 
  executed 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  piece of craftsmanship, but never "art" ! "Art" always has to 
  include 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  some inspiration and individualism. ..

                                                                                                                                                                                                  My point of 
  view, would be curious what others think about 
  this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  gerold

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12621
						From: John H
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling (and Buying)
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Gerold, Rick and Tom; Although signed up, I'm not active in PayPal right now, but I have still found that a high number of eBay sellers, especially indviduals as opposed to resellers, will accept alternate payment, like usps m.o.'s, if one asks ahead of the bid closing.  Alternate payment is allowed by eBay with prior permission of the seller for some reasons the last time I checked. One can still mark payment sent and follow though with your feedback. I also note that there are still some model rr eBay sellers which admantly refuse to accept PayPal and state so, one quite large.  I'm not sure about this, but the "PayPal Only" limitation might run afoul of some provisions of the Uniform Commercial Code which all fifty states have adopted in one form or another to facilitate commerce and that is why eBay still has loopholes. Even the TV hucksters that encourage you to "charge it" usually have a fine print address at the end of their spiel where payment may be sent.  W Jay W   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yes it is possible to buy/sell on ebay without using PayPal. I do believe the sellers must include the option but whether they choose to actually use it is another matter.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
For all you guys crying about ebay you should remember a couple of things. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Ever hear of complaints of how people get ripped off on ebay on the news? Oh yeah, ever so often. Ever hear of how many deals are processed with no problems on the news? Not so much.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Most of us deal within a rather tight, largely honest group. Rip offs are rare in the model rail groups (but they do happen) but in any organization as large as ebay, there are many ways to at least attempt to screw our fellow humans. The fact that ebay is able to find methods of making scams harder to do and make a buck at the same time is just plain good business. That is how they got and remain so big.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Want to sell elsewhere? Go ahead. Just remember you will be cutting your potential number of customers (i.e., bidders) by a huge amount.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
BTW, I have no particular affinity for ebay…except that is where the action is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12622
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  



 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't know how difficult it is--one fellow I buy 
from I mark "credit card"  then send him a check.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 12:36 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Rick 
  Jones wrote: 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thomas Parsons wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > I would like to bid on 
    the batch of old steam engines but I don't have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > pay pal. If I were 
    to win would you accept a postal money order?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Unfortunately no. 
    They've made it very difficult to go any other 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  route than Paypal or 
    credit cards. Too many complaints about fraudulent 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  payments I 
    guess.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -- 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Rick Jones

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Rick , Hi Tom, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  there shouldnt be any 
  problem.  Ebay forces sellers to accept Paypal only to maximize revenue 
  ... if Tom sends pament in cash, by MO or picks up in person and you simply 
  mark the item "paid" then everything is done. I do this quite often. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Please : I dont want to start a new ebay discussion but find it very 
  frustrating that this crooks make it increasingly difficult for us to deal 
  with each other , and contact each other. Under the banner of fraud prevention 
  they simply find ways to press more money out of every transaction. 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2580 - Release 
  Date: 12/21/09 19:13:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12623
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yes--the original metal RDC's had a power truck with a vertical motor.  Worm 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
on motor shaft drove a gear on the front axle, three intermediate gears to a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
final gear on the rear axle (if I have my gears right--can't go look at it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
as the disaster cleanup squad has most of the shop picked up and waiting for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
a container).  Same basic drive as the old Pennsylvania Scale Models 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
trolleys used.  Athearn made all four body types--all shortened except the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
RDC-4.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Matthew" <mattjcoleman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 1:12 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I didn't realize the Plastic RDC was always HiF. I never owned an RDC until 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
recently (thanks to this group I picked one up at a train show.)  Per the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
other comment on this, were the original metal RDC's powered differently?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I apologize if this question has been answered before.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Matt
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Matt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> The RDC also lived an died with the Hi F drive, even though Ernst did 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> offer gearing kits for both.........:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Â Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> to answer life's two most important questions!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2580 - Release Date: 12/21/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
19:13:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12624
						From: Jim Waterman
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  When I was a kid, we put flanged bushings on the 
drive shafts. Boy did they go then! With that low center of gravity of the cast 
frame and the higher gear ratio, it would really hug the rails. So smooth too. 
When I got braces as a teenager, I learned that the elastics that were used to 
move teeth worked pretty good and the orthodontist would let me take as many as 
I wanted. I suppose he always wondered why it took 4 years to straighten my 
teeth. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I wonder if that little critter is still in one of 
my junk boxes? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  We also used to put flanged wheels on HO race cars 
and let them rip around the layout. You had to grind down the frame a little to 
get the to the right gauge. I had some old insulated International wheels I 
used. We fashioned contacts out of brass strips that ran up and around both sets 
of wheels. They went pretty good too. Still have one of those.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Is this getting off topic? I must say we had a lot 
of fun. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12625
						From: Jim Waterman
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just a comment, because I'm a long time (since 97) 
ebayer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you request that a seller take a money order, he 
can do it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ebay owns Paypal, so they want to make it on both 
ends - the auction fee and the transaction fee on Paypal. You can still access 
other forms of payment if both parties agree. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It's really up to the seller. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12626
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also accumulate Athearn RDC's both metal and plastic.  As you know the frame for a plastic RDC is completely different to the way the metal RDC is built. If at all possible would you be able to post a photo of the way your Hi F powered metal cars are powered? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Tue, 12/22/09, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 1:56 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Matt, I have a redbox early allmetal RDC with a vertically mounted motor driving a geared truck, similar setup to many early traction drives...though the RDC truck is an enclosed gear train.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also have a fewmetal RDCs with HI F drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Matthew" <mattjcoleman@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:12:53 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I didn't realize the Plastic RDC was always HiF. I never owned an RDC until recently (thanks to this group I picked one up at a train show.) Per the other comment on this, were the original metal RDC's powered differently?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I apologize if this question has been answered before.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Matt

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Matt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The RDC also lived an died with the Hi F drive, even though Ernst did offer gearing kits for both........ .:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two
 most important questions! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12627
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, As you start out, it looks like you're also saying that Chris is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
correct when he's saying he has a few metal Athearn RDC's with Hi-F drive, as far 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
as being a drive found in the metal versions.  Agreed, he is correct when 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
he indicates having a metal RDC with gear drive, but not with Hi-F drive as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
being original issue for metal RDC's.  I did notice your later comment about 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
thinking they are a hybrid mix and match, though -- which most likely they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
are.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
As for other plastic-bodied dummy and powered RDC road names, besides the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
colorful New Haven RDC-1 (2072-A -- Dummy) and (2172-A -- Powered) models, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
there was also a later silver New Haven RDC-1 (2070-B) and a silver RDC-1 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(2172-B) produced.  Athearn also produced a silver New Haven RDC-3 (2077 - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Dummy, and 2177 - Powered) as well as dummy and powered versions of  the silver 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
RDC-1 and RDC-3 in undecorated, Santa Fe, and Baltimore & Ohio.  There was 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
never a New Haven RDC-3 in black, orange and white though, dummy or powered.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Ray F.W.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12628
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim H.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have bought most of my accumulation of Athearn stuff on Ebay. I especially look for metal RDC's, cranes and such.  I have a couple of times seen RDC's advertised as metal with Hi F drive and always dismissed the metal part as the seller thinking the bright silver RDC body was actually metal when in fact it would have been plastic. I now wonder if this was some short lived transition period when metal bodies were put on Hi F frames by the factory.  For that reason I have asked Chris B. if he might post a picture of the Hi F frame out of a metal body.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Tue, 12/22/09, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 4:47 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Matt, Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Chris is right about the type of geared drives in the Athearn metal RDCs. If you would like to see them better go to the www.hoseeker.net site and go to Literature and then Athearn you will find exploded view assembly sheets showing this. I can send pictures of the drives if needed. I happen to have 4 Athearn metal RDC'S. One of each type made ( RDC 1, 2 ,3 and 4). When Athearn went to plastic bodies with Hi- F rubber band drives only RDC 1 and 3's were sold. If I remember right the first plastic bodies were painted in the New Haven tri color scheme ( which I have ) and were the only ones like that. Later all were silver bodies with the different road names. Perhaps others with knowledge in this area can back me up or correct if needed as I am sitting here without books or catalogs within reach.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     Also I don't remember Athearn selling metal RDC bodies with Hi-F RBD drives. I have to think these are a hybrid mix and match someone made. However as I say "Never say never" the possibility exist that during a transition period of metal to plastic and gear drive to RBD Hi-F existing stock was used up. Again others might know this answer for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Chris B 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 4:56 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Matt, I have a redbox early allmetal RDC with a vertically mounted motor driving a geared truck, similar setup to many early traction drives...though the RDC truck is an enclosed gear train.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also have a fewmetal RDCs with HI F drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Matthew" <mattjcoleman@ aim.com> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:12:53 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I didn't realize the Plastic RDC was always HiF. I never owned an RDC until recently (thanks to this group I picked one up at a train show.) Per the other comment on this, were the original metal RDC's powered differently?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I apologize if this question has been answered before.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Matt

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Matt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The RDC also lived an died with the Hi F drive, even though Ernst did offer gearing kits for both........ .:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two
 most important questions! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12629
						From: bongiovanni12001
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  1)Michael Allman asked for the location of the brass lists; here's one:[thanks for double checking that the front engine is powered]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/brasscollectors/?yguid=8951961
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If I were better at this I could post the two in one message.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
2)The gentleman who is looking to fix the pilot on his Akane Allegheny; it is possible that the C&O pilot that John Glaab produced, that is available currently as far as I know, to correct the Bachman C&O 2-8-4 pilot, could help a lot.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
3)I too respect Dan Glasure, have dealt with him(happily), and have argued with him.  His concept of brass models as "art" has a lot going for it, and is very discussable.  If this is the right forum, it's an interesting discussion.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Frank Bongiovanni
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ckinzer@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Well, if we can trust the guide books, that rules out M. B. Austin and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > LMB and tends to further confirm IMP.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > The 2009 guide gives it a "current value" of $600.  (Same outfit that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > has www.brassguide.com)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Chuck K.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Ok, re the 2009 guide .... the author is Dan Glasure ( whom I respect as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> a honest person , I have bought from him when he was still a small 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> father and son business and I was always highly satisfied with his service)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> So, as he is dealing with used brass, its only natural he will push 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> prices with every means ... including overevaluation of each and every 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> model... To some degree, this seems to have worked as I often notice 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> that locos on his website are sold at exorbitant prices while similar 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ones at ebay go much lower.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  One of the main topics in his book that goes through all interviews of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> brass importers, is the statement " brass is art" ... he even says that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> it is necessary to interest a newer clientel , like watch / art 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> collectors for brass models to keep brass manufacturers / importers in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> business as they no longer can sell enough models at the todays 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> prices.... From his point of view, a smart idea ... however for us 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> collectors of vintage (brass) locos a potential problem as this might 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> bring certain models out of reach for people with limited budget.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> as I am involved in the art/ restoration business I am rather alienated 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> by the thought of considering a new Korean brass model a piece of "Art"  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> --- granted, this is a highly sophisticated and beautifully executed 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> piece of craftsmanship, but never "art" ! "Art" always has to include 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> some inspiration and individualism...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> My point of view,  would be curious what others think about this.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12630
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim Waterman wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   > Just a comment, because I'm a long time (since 97) ebayer.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> If you request that a seller take a money order, he can do it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Ebay owns Paypal, so they want to make it on both ends - the auction fee 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> and the transaction fee on Paypal. You can still access other forms of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> payment if both parties agree.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> It's really up to the seller.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      eBay does try to make it difficult to use other forms of payment. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
You're not allowed to even mention money orders or checks in a listing 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
any more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"People talking in movie shows,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"People smoking in bed,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"People voting Republican,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"Give them a boot to the head!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    -The Frantics, "Boot To The Head"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12631
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I particularly look for the tri-color New Haven  RDC's.  My accumulation includes  at least 5 RDC3's in the New Haven tri-color scheme. Three are powered, two are dummies. They are in what I believe to be the later production.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Tue, 12/22/09, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 10:42 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim, As you start out, it looks like you're also saying that Chris is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  correct when he's saying he has a few metal Athearn RDC's with Hi-F drive, as far 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  as being a drive found in the metal versions.  Agreed, he is correct when 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  he indicates having a metal RDC with gear drive, but not with Hi-F drive as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  being original issue for metal RDC's.  I did notice your later comment about 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  thinking they are a hybrid mix and match, though -- which most likely they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  are.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  As for other plastic-bodied dummy and powered RDC road names, besides the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  colorful New Haven RDC-1 (2072-A -- Dummy) and (2172-A -- Powered) models, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  there was also a later silver New Haven RDC-1 (2070-B) and a silver RDC-1 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  (2172-B) produced.  Athearn also produced a silver New Haven RDC-3 (2077 - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Dummy, and 2177 - Powered) as well as dummy and powered versions of  the silver 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  RDC-1 and RDC-3 in undecorated,
 Santa Fe, and Baltimore & Ohio.  There was 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  never a New Haven RDC-3 in black, orange and white though, dummy or powered.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ray F.W.</HTML>


                                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------------------------------


                                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12632
						From: Chris B
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  










 Will do, but can't unpack that  closet till after xmas... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From:  Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...>

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:15:29 -0800 (PST)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Selling

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also accumulate Athearn RDC's both metal and plastic.  As you know the frame for a plastic RDC is completely different to the way the metal RDC is built. If at all possible would you be able to post a photo of the way your Hi F powered metal cars are powered? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Tue, 12/22/09, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 1:56 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Matt, I have a redbox early allmetal RDC with a vertically mounted motor driving a geared truck, similar setup to many early traction drives...though the RDC truck is an enclosed gear train.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also have a fewmetal RDCs with HI F drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Matthew" <mattjcoleman@ aim.com> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:12:53 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I didn't realize the Plastic RDC was always HiF. I never owned an RDC until recently (thanks to this group I picked one up at a train show.) Per the other comment on this, were the original metal RDC's powered differently?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I apologize if this question has been answered before.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Matt

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Matt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The RDC also lived an died with the Hi F drive, even though Ernst did offer gearing kits for both........ .:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two
 most important questions! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     

    

 







                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12633
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for the reply, no problem I can wait.

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Tue, 12/22/09, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 12:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Will do, but can't unpack that closet till after xmas... 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:15:29 -0800 (PST)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also accumulate Athearn RDC's both metal and plastic.  As you know the frame for a plastic RDC is completely different to the way the metal RDC is built. If at all possible would you be able to post a photo of the way your Hi F powered metal cars are powered? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Tue, 12/22/09, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 1:56 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Matt, I have a redbox early allmetal RDC with a vertically mounted motor driving a geared truck, similar setup to many early traction drives...though the RDC truck is an enclosed gear train.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I also have a fewmetal RDCs with HI F drives.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Chris B. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: "Matthew" <mattjcoleman@ aim.com> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:12:53 -0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I didn't realize the Plastic RDC was always HiF. I never owned an RDC until recently (thanks to this group I picked one up at a train show.) Per the other comment on this, were the original metal RDC's powered differently?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I apologize if this question has been answered before.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Matt

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@.. .> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Hi Matt,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > The RDC also lived an died with the Hi F drive, even though Ernst did offer gearing kits for both........ .:o)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12634
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/22/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wobbly,  I find it very interesting that you have tri-color NH RDC-3's, especially as they are not listed as being produced, in the Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains.  Not that I'm doubting you have them, as it is most interesting.  Looks like this was an oversight by all contributors involved in that section of the book.  I only have the four different metal RDC's, two with power and two dummies -- as I'm not into collecting plastic that much -- so I never looked for any.  I'm glad you pointed this out, for those here that do collect them.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've seen this guide include some errors, but they are generally minor -- such as giving the Athearn catalog number for the powered plastic B&O RDC-3 as 2177 when it should be 2178.  There's also a possible omission of a metal RDC-4 dummy (there are none listed in the Guide), but I don't know if one was ever made; mine is powered.   Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12635
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 12/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ray
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  There are two Athearn Guides. One is the Greenberg guide, the other is "The Standard Guide to Athearn Model Trains" by Tim Blaisdell and Ed Urmston Sr. I have had a copy of each, but have not been able to locate either of them for some time, a most annoysome situation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  It seems to me, if I recall correctly, that the Greenberg guide starts at an earlier time in Athearn history while the Standard Guide starts in 1957 with the plastic models and goes until about 1998 while the Greenberg guide ends a little earlier than that. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  So If the Greenberg guide stops before the tricolor RDC3 came out that would explain why you see no reference to its existance. As I said before I believe the tricolor RDC3s that I have were of later production. Much of my Athearn accumulatin is packed away in boxes from a move so I have not been able to find all of my tricolor models to see if I have any of what I believe to be the earlier production.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Tue, 12/22/09, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 10:08 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wobbly,  I find it very interesting that you have tri-color NH RDC-3's, especially as they are not listed as being produced, in the Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains.  Not that I'm doubting you have them, as it is most interesting.  Looks like this was an oversight by all contributors involved in that section of the book.  I only have the four different metal RDC's, two with power and two dummies -- as I'm not into collecting plastic that much -- so I never looked for any.  I'm glad you pointed this out, for those here that do collect them.   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've seen this guide include some errors, but they are generally minor -- such as giving the Athearn catalog number for the powered plastic B&O RDC-3 as 2177 when it should be 2178.  There's also a possible omission of a metal RDC-4 dummy (there are none listed in the Guide), but I don't know if one was ever made; mine
 is powered.   Ray                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12636
						From: Matthew
						Date: 12/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jim (and all who answered on this thread),
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for the information on the RDC drive(s). I learned a lot (and being very ignorant I probably learned more than anyone, but still know less) and appreciate the willingness to share.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have my plastic, Hi-F drive RDC running (using the CVS 'hair bands' that someone on this list suggested) and it runs quite well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have several GP7/9s with Hi-F and tried running them in a consist last night (also as mentioned in this group) and was amazed at how much smoother they ran. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Again, thanks to all who responded, especially to Wobbly913 who just gave me a new word to use for my part of the hobby -- I realized that I too "accumulate" rather than "collect" old HO.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Matt Coleman
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Matt, Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>      Chris is right about the type of geared drives in the Athearn metal RDCs. If you would like to see them better go to the www.hoseeker.net site and go to Literature and then Athearn you will find exploded view assembly sheets showing this. I can send pictures of the drives if needed. I happen to have 4 Athearn metal RDC'S. One of each type made ( RDC 1, 2 ,3 and 4). When Athearn went to plastic bodies with Hi- F rubber band drives only RDC 1 and 3's were sold. If I remember right the first plastic bodies were painted in the New Haven tri color scheme ( which I have ) and were the only ones like that. Later all were silver bodies with the different road names. Perhaps others with knowledge in this area can back me up or correct if needed as I am sitting here without books or catalogs within reach.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>    Also I don't remember Athearn selling metal RDC bodies with Hi-F RBD drives. I have to think these are a hybrid mix and match someone made. However as I say "Never say never" the possibility exist that during a transition period of metal to plastic and gear drive to RBD Hi-F existing stock was used up. Again others might know this answer for sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                                               Jim H 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12637
						From: tnc200394
						Date: 12/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Athearn Uboats from 1976
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I found a Athearn Uboat paited in SCL 1776 red,white,& blue scheme. Where they sold as U36B's or something else? Also does someone know
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
where i could find the parts sheet that came with them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Merry Christmas and happy new year to all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                       Tom tnc200394@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12638
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Wobbly,  Yes thanks, I'm aware of "The Standard Guide to Athearn Model Trains" (by Blaisdell and Urmston Sr.), published in December 1998 -- in addition to the Greenberg Guide.  I never bought it as my interests in collecting Athearn primarily go back earlier.  About 10 years prior to Tim coming out with his book, at about the time when I first became a member of the H0 SC&H SIG, I used to correspond with him and supply him with information on the later Athearn production that he was primarily interested in at that time.  He was just starting an Athearn group devoted mainly to these later production offerings.  If he had a book in mind at that time, it was more like a dream for the future years, but he eventually developed a formative plan for the book and stuck to it, I was glad to see.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yes, The Greenberg Athearn Guide (published in March, 1987) starts right at the beginning as far as production goes, first with 0-Scale in 1943, then with h)-Scale in 1947 -- after intially going into Irv Athearn's personal history.  Since it was released in ' 87, it couldn't have covered that material which Blaisdell's and Urmston Sr's guide included up through 1998.

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Since you have tri-color New Haven RDC-3's, I can probably assume that they would be found in this later Athearn book.  The "Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Train" covers up to about 1968, and since these tri-color NH RDC-3's are not mentioned in this book, it then definitely is an oversight with their noted omission there.  While I'm still not sure exactly when the tri-colored NH RDC-3 was first produced, I discovered this morning that I should have referred to my catalogs before my posting yesterday.  My 1963 Athearn catalog shows the tri-color NH RDC-3 (Powered) as part of a two-car RDC Passenger Set - No. 6206 NH, the second rail diesel car being a Dummy RDC-1 (Set priced at $10.95).  The RDC cars, both the RDC-1 and RDC-3, were also sold individually in 1963 (Powered - $7.95, and Dummy - $2.95), but strangely the New Haven tri-colored cars were not listed that way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  An earlier Athearn catalog I have, covering the metal RDC's when they were first introduced, lists the RDC-1, RDC-2, RDC-3 and RDC-4 (@ $14.95 each) -- TRAILER KITS $6.95 (Same Kit as above less motor).  By this, it would appear they are referring to the Dummy kits, even though they're not listed as such -- and since they are including this statement under all four of the models produced, they must have produced Dummies for all four of these models.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Still curious as to when the tri-colored NH RDC-3 first came out (was it perhaps also produced in 1958?), could you offer any further information on that, as is probably included in The Standard Guide to Athearn Model Trains?    Ray F.W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12639
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Athearn Uboats from 1976
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  The Athearn Bicentennial U-Boat was sold as a U-33B (Catalog # 3484 - Powered, and # 3494 - Dummy).  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12640
						From: Ray Marinaccio
						Date: 12/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Athearn Uboats from 1976
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  You can find a parts sheet at HOSEEKER.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: tnc200394 <tnc200394@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn Uboats from 1976
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 7:29 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I found a Athearn Uboat paited in SCL 1776 red,white,& blue scheme. Where they sold as U36B's or something else? Also does someone know
                                                                                                                                                                                                  where i could find the parts sheet that came with them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Merry Christmas and happy new year to all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Tom tnc200394@...



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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12641
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Athearn plastic RDC 3 R B D Hi-F New Haven Tri Color
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Ray F W., All
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I sent quick pictures of 
 Athearn plastic Hi- F Rubber Band Drive RDC 's in New Haven tri colors I 
have. If you need better I'll send. First picture if I'm correct is a 
RDC 3 and other is the RDC 1. ( Am I right that is an RDC 3 ? 
)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ray I hope I read your 
answer to me correct.  I have to reread the Email I responded to plus my 
response but I believe the first statement I made was I agreed about the type of 
geared drive in the metal RDC's and it was not the same as Hi-F Rubber Band 
Drive. I also made mention that I thought his metal bodies on Hi-F drives were a 
mix and match hybrid which were not sold by Athearn. Last I stated all other 
plastic bodied Athearn RDC Hi-F rubber band drives that I knew of were silver 
bodies only (no more tri color like the New Haven) in many different road 
names.  I don't know all the road names.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Maybe I used bad English or 
poorly described what I was saying. If so I'm sorry. I have had a tough last 24 
hrs in that my wife and I had a car accident and have a totaled car to show for 
it while trying to get to State College PA ( home of Penn State) to see our 
daughter who was giving birth to our first grandchild. The good part is there is 
a new HO train lover for sure as she presented us with a perfect grandson. Yes 
we got there to see it. So what started badly turned out great. More later if 
I'm still not understood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have to read all the responses 
left to this thread later but wanted to send the pictures  including the 
PLASTIC NEW HAVEN TRI COLOR RDC 3 by ATHEARN with Hi-F RUBBER BAND 
DRIVE.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12642
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 12/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 8:45 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Text deleted
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Since you have tri-color New Haven RDC-3's, I can probably assume that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> would be found in this later Athearn book.  The "Greenberg's Guide to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Athearn Train" covers up to about 1968, and since these tri-color NH 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> RDC-3's are
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> not mentioned in this book, it then definitely is an oversight with their
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> noted omission there.  While I'm still not sure exactly when the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> tri-colored
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> NH RDC-3 was first produced, I discovered this morning that I should have
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> referred to my catalogs before my posting yesterday.  My 1963 Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> catalog
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> shows the tri-color NH RDC-3 (Powered) as part of a two-car RDC Passenger 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Set
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> - No. 6206 NH, the second rail diesel car being a Dummy RDC-1 (Set priced
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> at $10.95).  The RDC cars, both the RDC-1 and RDC-3, were also sold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> individually in 1963 (Powered - $7.95, and Dummy - $2.95), but strangely 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the New
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Haven tri-colored cars were not listed that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
You know I find this discussion rather interesting, since everyone is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
talking as if the tri-color New Havens were so unusual.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Just from my own early memories, it seems to me that as I recall them, the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
tri-color scheme was the STANDARD one Athearn used.  I would have thought 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
the all-silver NH was the rare one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
In fact, looking at a 1977 Walther's catalog, the stock picture for the RDC 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
shows the multi-colored one (albeit a black & white photo).
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12643
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     I meant unusual only in the sense they 
were the only plastic bodied RDC's using a tri color paint scheme produced by 
Athearn. Not talking about numbers produced.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 7:05 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 
Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: <erieberk@wmconnect. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: 
  <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: 
  Wednesday, December 23, 2009 8:45 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 
  Selling

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Text deleted

                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Since you have tri-color New 
  Haven RDC-3's, I can probably assume that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > they
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > would be found 
  in this later Athearn book. The "Greenberg's Guide to
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Athearn Train" 
  covers up to about 1968, and since these tri-color NH 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > RDC-3's 
  are
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > not mentioned in this book, it then definitely is an oversight 
  with their
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > noted omission there. While I'm still not sure exactly when 
  the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > tri-colored
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > NH RDC-3 was first produced, I discovered 
  this morning that I should have
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > referred to my catalogs before my 
  posting yesterday. My 1963 Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > catalog
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > shows the 
  tri-color NH RDC-3 (Powered) as part of a two-car RDC Passenger 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 
  Set
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > - No. 6206 NH, the second rail diesel car being a Dummy RDC-1 (Set 
  priced
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > at $10.95). The RDC cars, both the RDC-1 and RDC-3, were also 
  sold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > individually in 1963 (Powered - $7.95, and Dummy - $2.95), but 
  strangely 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > the New
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Haven tri-colored cars were not listed that 
  way.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  You know I find this discussion rather interesting, since everyone 
  is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  talking as if the tri-color New Havens were so unusual.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Just 
  from my own early memories, it seems to me that as I recall them, the 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  tri-color scheme was the STANDARD one Athearn used. I would have thought 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  the all-silver NH was the rare one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In fact, looking at a 1977 
  Walther's catalog, the stock picture for the RDC 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  shows the multi-colored 
  one (albeit a black & white photo).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12644
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 12/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  In the beginning of plastic RDC production, the New Haven units were silver 
and the streamline passenger cars were silver and red.  Then in about 1962, 
both the NH streamline passenger cars and RDC's colors were changed to the 
tri-color scheme.  This was influenced by the New Haven rebuilt coach 1000 
and jazzed up a bit with the white letterboard, which car 1000 did not 
have.  The New Haven never had the money to rebuild any more cars like had 
been done to car 1000.  The stupid, ugly, tri-color scheme lasted on 
Athearn cars and RDC's for several years.  It was probably sometime in the 
1970's when Athearn changed back to silver NH RDC cars and silver and red 
passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  There were three ways to repower an RDC.  Ernst made a gear kit that 
was alright.  I have one operating.  Pacific Fast Mail made a SPUD 
truck that fit but had a relatively short life and somebody sold a repower kit 
made from Athearn locomotive drive parts that was really nice.  I bought 
one but can't find it in the "black hole" at the moment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12645
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Brad S,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have no reason to dispute 
the years you state, what the New Haven RDC cars were patterned 
after but I have always been under the impression the first plastic painted 
RDC's by Athearn using the Hi-F rubber band drive were the New Haven tri color ( 
and the only tri or multi color made in any road name )  and were followed 
by the silver body types (including the New Haven name and other road names 
).  We all know that Irv Athearn wanted to do things the cheapest way 
possible and that is how just silver bodies came about
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hey I'm open to facts, proof, 
etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  . 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 7:56 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 
Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  In the beginning of plastic RDC production, the New Haven units were 
  silver and the streamline passenger cars were silver and red.  Then in 
  about 1962, both the NH streamline passenger cars and RDC's colors were 
  changed to the tri-color scheme.  This was influenced by the New Haven 
  rebuilt coach 1000 and jazzed up a bit with the white letterboard, which car 
  1000 did not have.  The New Haven never had the money to rebuild any more 
  cars like had been done to car 1000.  The stupid, ugly, tri-color 
  scheme lasted on Athearn cars and RDC's for several years.  It was 
  probably sometime in the 1970's when Athearn changed back to silver NH RDC 
  cars and silver and red passenger cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  There were three ways to repower an RDC.  Ernst made a gear kit that 
  was alright.  I have one operating.  Pacific Fast Mail made a SPUD 
  truck that fit but had a relatively short life and somebody sold a repower kit 
  made from Athearn locomotive drive parts that was really nice.  I bought 
  one but can't find it in the "black hole" at the moment.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Franklin, WI
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12646
						From: corlissbs@aol.com
						Date: 12/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  I bought my first set of silver NH RDC cars in 1960.  I still have one 
of the cars.  Has run many miles.  It was all silver, as were the full 
sized NH RDC cars until 1955 when the ends were painted white with the red 
stripes and block NH's.  I had to do that to my model too, using Walthers 
decals over the fluting which wasn't present on the full sized NH cars.  
Bought more, as I liked them.  Then when Irv changed the color to the 
tri-color scheme, I never bought another.  Check out the 1959 Athearn 
catalog (The green one) for a picture of the two car, New Haven, RDC train 
"The Commuter" in silver.  The orange 1959/1960 catalog showed Santa Fe 
cars.  The 1962 catalog still shows the white NH F7's which were not 
changed in color until the same time the passengers were changed to 
tri-color.  The 1962/1963 catalog shows the tri-color NH cars, 
RDC's and the tri-color NH, F7.  The 1957 purple catalog does not show 
an RDC at all, since they were not introduced until 1958 and the metal cars were 
long gone.  The books don't tell all.  Sometimes you have to check out 
the catalogs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12647
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 12/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Athearn plastic RDC 3 R B D Hi-F New Haven Tri Color
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim H.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
First, sorry to hear of your accident, but am very glad you and your wife are safe and now have a grandson, too!  Boy are you going to have fun with him as he grows, and he with you!  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Can't add much here except that "McGinnis" scheme RDC-3 was the first piece of motive power I purchased on my own as maybe a 12 or 13 year old to add to the Penn Line locomotives given to me as gifts in the early 1960's.  Still have to find a nice matching RDC-1 to add to it!  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
W. Jay W.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Hi Ray F W., All
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     I sent quick pictures of  Athearn plastic Hi- F Rubber Band Drive RDC 's in New Haven tri colors I have. If you need better I'll send. First picture if I'm correct is a RDC 3 and other is the RDC 1. ( Am I right that is an RDC 3 ? )
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Ray I hope I read your answer to me correct.  I have to reread the Email I responded to plus my response but I believe the first statement I made was I agreed about the type of geared drive in the metal RDC's and it was not the same as Hi-F Rubber Band Drive. I also made mention that I thought his metal bodies on Hi-F drives were a mix and match hybrid which were not sold by Athearn. Last I stated all other plastic bodied Athearn RDC Hi-F rubber band drives that I knew of were silver bodies only (no more tri color like the New Haven) in many different road names.  I don't know all the road names.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     Maybe I used bad English or poorly described what I was saying. If so I'm sorry. I have had a tough last 24 hrs in that my wife and I had a car accident and have a totaled car to show for it while trying to get to State College PA ( home of Penn State) to see our daughter who was giving birth to our first grandchild. The good part is there is a new HO train lover for sure as she presented us with a perfect grandson. Yes we got there to see it. So what started badly turned out great. More later if I'm still not understood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>     I have to read all the responses left to this thread later but wanted to send the pictures  including the PLASTIC NEW HAVEN TRI COLOR RDC 3 by ATHEARN with Hi-F RUBBER BAND DRIVE.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>                                                                                             Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12648
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Brad S,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Thanks for all the 
information. I again won't dispute what all your catalogs state. I even 
think it backs up something I have said before and not only for Athearn. Never 
say never. The books don't always have all the information ( nobody is perfect 
and non intentional omissions happen ) nor do catalogs as many times their are 
also non catalogued items that are found. (I lean a lot to that "bird in 
hand motto" when it comes to non catalogued items with other verification.) 
Exact dates can be especially hard to pin down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       For these reasons groups 
like this become very important to the history of vintage HO including Athearn. 
A kind of cross referencing of the books on the market, catalogues and known non 
catalogued items all joined to get the best information possible.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Information about vintage HO 
companies is not always a constant. Again my thoughts and not written in 
stone.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 8:40 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 
Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I bought my first set of silver NH RDC cars in 1960.  I still have 
  one of the cars.  Has run many miles.  It was all silver, as were 
  the full sized NH RDC cars until 1955 when the ends were painted white 
  with the red stripes and block NH's.  I had to do that to my model too, 
  using Walthers decals over the fluting which wasn't present on the full sized 
  NH cars.  Bought more, as I liked them.  Then when Irv changed the 
  color to the tri-color scheme, I never bought another.  Check out the 
  1959 Athearn catalog (The green one) for a picture of the two car, New 
  Haven, RDC train "The Commuter" in silver.  The orange 1959/1960 
  catalog showed Santa Fe cars.  The 1962 catalog still shows the white NH 
  F7's which were not changed in color until the same time the passengers were 
  changed to tri-color.  The 1962/1963 catalog shows the tri-color NH cars, 
  RDC's and the tri-color NH, F7.  The 1957 purple catalog does not 
  show an RDC at all, since they were not introduced until 1958 and the metal 
  cars were long gone.  The books don't tell all.  Sometimes you have 
  to check out the catalogs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Brad Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12649
						From: 69_Mustang_Man
						Date: 12/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Directions for a Varney 2-8-0 old lady needed.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi All, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I hope everyone is having a good holiday season. Mine has been hectic with my mother-in-law being in the hospital for the past week. She is our day care. Since my wife is a teacher, I have had to see the kids off to school every morning before going to work myself. This includes making breakfast for everyone as well. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have had a request from someone who purchased an engine off of me for some instructions. All  my searches have been fruitless. Even HO Seeker did not seem to have anything listed.  I am looking for directions to an OLD LADY steam locomotive. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I would truely prefer a PDF file copy, but I am not picky and will take whatever anyone has.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12650
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 12/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Steam Locomotive to the rescue in 2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  > On Dec 23, 2009, at 10:45 PM, John Hagen wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/8428097.stm
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>> Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  WOW !!!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
You might have heard about the Eurotrain/Chunnel-trains being shut  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
down due to snow intake problems from the recent European blizzards  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
which were causing complete shutdown failures and several train  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
strandings under The Channel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"Passengers were rescued by a steam locomotive after modern rail  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
services were brought to a halt by the snowy conditions in south-east  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
England."
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
It's no wonder we ran steam trains for a couple of centuries! This one  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
was completed about a  year ago using all of the latest steam  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
technology from earlier developments.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
"The No. 60163 Tornado is based on the designs of the Peppercorn class  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
'A1' steam locomotives which were built in the late 1940s but scrapped  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
in 1966."
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/oxford/hi/people_and_places/history/newsid_8222000/8222962.stm
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Many thanks to John for passing this on to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Best to ya,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Milwaukee, Wi
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12651
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 12/23/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Selling
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:25 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Selling
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Back when the Hi-F drive first appeared, several of the HO members of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> club I was in found that the Hi-F was good for MU consists--it absorbed 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> the
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> speed differences and allowed all-powered ABBA sets--
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> in the 80's a bunch in Oregon were holding races with Hustlers--stock and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> modified classes.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
When the rubber band drive first came out I saw an article in Model 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Railroader that said in their tests, when Hi-F units were run in multiple, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
they actually outpulled comparable gear driven units.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12652
						From: Chris B
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Athearn plastic RDC 3 R B D Hi-F New Haven Tri Color [2 Attachme
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim, all vintage HO aside, very good to hear you escaped you and yours escaped your accident with such food fortune, and that you both got to see your new grandson!!!  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  We have our first grandchild's new christmas stocking on our mantle ready for the big visit tonight, but I can't imagine what worries you and the new mother AND the new grandmother went through before you were all in one room together! Congratulations!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yesterday, and every year at this time I get to play Santa Claus at USPS HQ for all the HQ employees and their children, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  some of whom I've successfully indoctrinated in this wonderful hobby, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  but that young man is certainly very fortunate to have inherited one of the best coaches in the field, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  so I'll just put my santa hat back on and  say Merry
 Christmas to your new grandson, to the lucky new grandparents, and to this whole fine group!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  There's only one rule at Christmas time....


                                                                                                                                                                                                  IF YOU WERE GOOD, YOU GET TO PLAY WITH TRAINS!!



                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 7:01:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn plastic RDC 3 R B D Hi-F New Haven Tri Color [2 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                                  







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Ray F W., All
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I sent quick pictures of 
 Athearn plastic Hi- F Rubber Band Drive RDC 's in New Haven tri colors I 
have. If you need better I'll send. First picture if I'm correct is a 
RDC 3 and other is the RDC 1. ( Am I right that is an RDC 3 ? 
)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ray I hope I read your 
answer to me correct.  I have to reread the Email I responded to plus my 
response but I believe the first statement I made was I agreed about the type of 
geared drive in the metal RDC's and it was not the same as Hi-F Rubber Band 
Drive. I also made mention that I thought his metal bodies on Hi-F drives were a 
mix and match hybrid which were not sold by Athearn. Last I stated all other 
plastic bodied Athearn RDC Hi-F rubber band drives that I knew of were silver 
bodies only (no more tri color like the New Haven) in many different road 
names.  I don't know all the road names.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Maybe I used bad English or 
poorly described what I was saying. If so I'm sorry. I have had a tough last 24 
hrs in that my wife and I had a car accident and have a totaled car to show for 
it while trying to get to State College PA ( home of Penn State) to see our 
daughter who was giving birth to our first grandchild. The good part is there is 
a new HO train lover for sure as she presented us with a perfect grandson. Yes 
we got there to see it. So what started badly turned out great. More later if 
I'm still not understood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have to read all the responses 
left to this thread later but wanted to send the pictures  including the 
PLASTIC NEW HAVEN TRI COLOR RDC 3 by ATHEARN with Hi-F RUBBER BAND 
DRIVE.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12653
						From: Chris B
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Athearn plastic RDC 3 R B D Hi-F New Haven Tri Color
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi
Jim, all vintage HO aside, very good to hear you escaped you and yours
escaped your accident with such GOOD fortune, and that you both got to
see your new grandson!!!  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
We have our first grandchild's new
christmas stocking on our mantle ready for the big visit tonight, but I
can't imagine what worries you and the new mother AND the new
grandmother went through before you were all in one room together!
Congratulations!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Yesterday, and every year at this time I get to play Santa Claus at USPS HQ for all the HQ employees and their children, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
some of whom I've successfully indoctrinated in this wonderful hobby, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
but that young man is certainly very fortunate to have inherited one of the best coaches in the field, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
so I'll just put my santa hat back on and  say Merry
 Christmas to your new grandson, to the lucky new grandparents, and to this whole fine group!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
There's only one rule at Christmas time....
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
IF YOU WERE GOOD, YOU GET TO PLAY WITH TRAINS!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(santa should spell check more often)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thu, December 24, 2009 6:32:09 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn plastic RDC 3 R B D Hi-F New Haven Tri Color

                                                                                                                                                                                                  







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim, all vintage HO aside, very good to hear you escaped you and yours escaped your accident with such food fortune, and that you both got to see your new grandson!!!  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  We have our first grandchild's new christmas stocking on our mantle ready for the big visit tonight, but I can't imagine what worries you and the new mother AND the new grandmother went through before you were all in one room together! Congratulations!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yesterday, and every year at this time I get to play Santa Claus at USPS HQ for all the HQ employees and their children, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  some of whom I've successfully indoctrinated in this wonderful hobby, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  but that young man is certainly very fortunate to have inherited one of the best coaches in the field, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  so I'll just put my santa hat back on and  say Merry
 Christmas to your new grandson, to the lucky new grandparents, and to this whole fine group!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  There's only one rule at Christmas time....


                                                                                                                                                                                                  IF YOU WERE GOOD, YOU GET TO PLAY WITH TRAINS!!



                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 7:01:07 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn plastic RDC 3 R B D Hi-F New Haven Tri Color [2 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                                  







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Ray F W., All
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I sent quick pictures of 
 Athearn plastic Hi- F Rubber Band Drive RDC 's in New Haven tri colors I 
have. If you need better I'll send. First picture if I'm correct is a 
RDC 3 and other is the RDC 1. ( Am I right that is an RDC 3 ? 
)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ray I hope I read your 
answer to me correct.  I have to reread the Email I responded to plus my 
response but I believe the first statement I made was I agreed about the type of 
geared drive in the metal RDC's and it was not the same as Hi-F Rubber Band 
Drive. I also made mention that I thought his metal bodies on Hi-F drives were a 
mix and match hybrid which were not sold by Athearn. Last I stated all other 
plastic bodied Athearn RDC Hi-F rubber band drives that I knew of were silver 
bodies only (no more tri color like the New Haven) in many different road 
names.  I don't know all the road names.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Maybe I used bad English or 
poorly described what I was saying. If so I'm sorry. I have had a tough last 24 
hrs in that my wife and I had a car accident and have a totaled car to show for 
it while trying to get to State College PA ( home of Penn State) to see our 
daughter who was giving birth to our first grandchild. The good part is there is 
a new HO train lover for sure as she presented us with a perfect grandson. Yes 
we got there to see it. So what started badly turned out great. More later if 
I'm still not understood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      I have to read all the responses 
left to this thread later but wanted to send the pictures  including the 
PLASTIC NEW HAVEN TRI COLOR RDC 3 by ATHEARN with Hi-F RUBBER BAND 
DRIVE.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  




                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     





                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12654
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Directions for a Varney 2-8-0 old lady needed.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Sean,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      You will have to excuse this 
feeble old brain more then normal right now. Exactly what are you looking for 
concerning that Varney 2-8-0 Old Lady. Assembly sheets, parts sheets, blown up 
diagrams and which run ?  Let me know and I'll check my stash.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Do you happen to have a Bowser 
catalog ( any year ) as I believe ( catalog not right in front of me ) there 
are drawings / diagrams  of this engine showing the parts of 
disassembled Old Ladies, including the early Varney, in it. Maybe a 
good place to start.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 11:56 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Directions for a 
  Varney 2-8-0 old lady needed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi All, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I hope everyone is having a good holiday season. Mine has 
  been hectic with my mother-in-law being in the hospital for the past week. She 
  is our day care. Since my wife is a teacher, I have had to see the kids off to 
  school every morning before going to work myself. This includes making 
  breakfast for everyone as well. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have had a request from someone who 
  purchased an engine off of me for some instructions. All my searches have been 
  fruitless. Even HO Seeker did not seem to have anything listed. I am looking 
  for directions to an OLD LADY steam locomotive. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I would truely prefer 
  a PDF file copy, but I am not picky and will take whatever anyone 
  has.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean

                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12655
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Happy Holidays
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                
I want to wish everyone Happy Holidays no matter what that might be. To those 
that observe it Merry Christmas to all and especially a HEALTHY New 
Year.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                         To tie this 
into trains and not be totally off topic. The birth of a grandson ( and not 
saying a grand daughter wouldn't ) I now know my train collection has someone to 
pass on to after my children. This little guy will be exposed quickly to 
the joy of HO model trains and I am looking forward to that. I wanted my 
daughter and son in law to name him "Casey Jones" but they wouldn't go for 
it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Along with the birth 
at this Christmas holiday time my wife and I are very thankful that we were not 
seriously injured in the accident on the way to see the birth. While 
I slammed my head into the post for the windshield / drivers side door 
many bruises are being shared by both my wife and I. We walked away with no 
apparent major injuries and no one else was hurt. The car can be 
replaced.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Everyone  now 
knows how crazy I am as we denied medical attention ( no ER visit  ) 
as the birth took precedent since our daughter was in an assessed risk 
category do to a previous kidney problem which could have caused renal failure. 
Just switched everything into our other car and left. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                        So miracles do 
happen and not only at this time of year. Thank you to all who showed concern. 
Please remember I was a little crazy before but now " Nutty as that Christmas 
fruitcake".
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Full steam ahead with all green lights,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12656
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Happy Holidays
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Congrats on the new addition to the family, and thank God you got through what could have been a very bad accident, true that cars can be replaced, but replacing you on this list I'm affraid would be a very diffacult thing to do.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Grandson's are fun, I have one of my own, so he too is crazy about trains!
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thu, December 24, 2009 8:58:37 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Happy Holidays

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                I want to wish everyone Happy Holidays no matter what that might be. To those that observe it Merry Christmas to all and especially a HEALTHY New Year.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                         To tie this into trains and not be totally off topic. The birth of a grandson ( and not saying a grand daughter wouldn't ) I now know my train collection has someone to pass on to after my children. This little guy will be exposed quickly to the joy of HO model trains and I am looking forward to that. I wanted my daughter and son in law to name him "Casey Jones" but they wouldn't go for it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Along with the birth at this Christmas holiday time my wife and I are very thankful that we were not seriously injured in the accident on the way to see the birth. While I slammed my head into the post for the windshield / drivers side door many bruises are being shared by both my wife and I. We walked away with no apparent major injuries and no one else was hurt. The car can be replaced.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Everyone  now knows how crazy I am as we denied medical attention ( no ER visit  ) as the birth took precedent since our daughter was in an assessed risk category do to a previous kidney problem which could have caused renal failure. Just switched everything into our other car and left. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                        So miracles do happen and not only at this time of year. Thank you to all who showed concern. Please remember I was a little crazy before but now " Nutty as that Christmas fruitcake".
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Full steam ahead with all green lights,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12657
						From: John Hagen
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Directions for a Varney 2-8-0 old lady needed.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


 
 
Re: [vintageHO] Directions for a Varney 2-8-0 old lady needed.

 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Try this link.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  <atest production but still may be helpful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://bowser-trains.com/holocos/old_lady/OldLadyRef.pdf
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12658
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Directions for a Varney 2-8-0 old lady needed.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi John,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks Ron sent me that info earlier, but  I need the older version. Here is my reply to his email:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  "Hi Ron,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Saw them, thanks, but the problem is these are for the newer version. I need the old Varney version as it is much different in it's basic construction.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Major differences between the Bowser vs Varney as I can tell:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Plastic boiler / diecast boiler
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Brass chassis frame / Diecast chassis frame
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  drive rods are stamped Aluminum / diecast metal
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Not even sure if the valve gear is he same, but I have been told no. The engine we are trying to get these for is the older Varney version. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks so much for the effort however. I never knew Bowser remade this loco."
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks too John, but I really need the Varney instructions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks and have a great holiday! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thu, December 24, 2009 10:25:07 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Directions for a Varney 2-8-0 old lady needed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Try this link.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  <atest production but still may be helpful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://bowser- trains.com/ holocos/old_ lady/OldLadyRef. pdf
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor, Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Green Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12659
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Directions for a Varney 2-8-0 old lady needed.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


  
  

 
I have the Bowser 15th edition and the Varney diagram is on the top
of page 207.  It is small and would need to be enlarged but it is
there.  If no one else has access to this diagram I will try and get a
copy of it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
==========================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sean Naylor wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi John,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks Ron sent me that info earlier, but  I need the older
version. Here is my reply to his email:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  "Hi Ron,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Saw them, thanks, but the problem is these are for the newer
version. I need the old Varney version as it is much different in it's
basic construction.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Major differences between the Bowser vs Varney as I can tell:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Plastic boiler / diecast boiler
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Brass chassis frame / Diecast chassis frame
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  drive rods are stamped Aluminum / diecast metal
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Not even sure if the valve gear is he same,
but I have been told no. The engine we are trying to get these for is
the older Varney version. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks so much for the effort however. I never knew Bowser
remade this loco."
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks too John, but I really need the Varney instructions. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks and have a great holiday! 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From:
John Hagen <sprinthag@yahoo. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Sent: Thu, December
24, 2009 10:25:07 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Subject: Re:
[vintageHO] Directions for a Varney 2-8-0 old lady needed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
   
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Try this link.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  <atest
production but
  still may be helpful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://bowser- trains.com/ holocos/old_
lady/OldLadyRef. pdf
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor,
Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Green
Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12660
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Directions for a Varney 2-8-0 old lady needed.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  


  

 
That is with the newer Bowser frame and running gear.  If you got
that from a Bowser book then the Varney diagram will be in the back of
the book, next to last page in the 15th edition.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
=====================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
John Hagen wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Try this link.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  <atest
production but
  still may be helpful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://bowser- trains.com/ holocos/old_ lady/OldLadyRef. pdf
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Editor,
Green Bay & Western Lines
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Green
Bay & Western Historical Society, Inc. Newsletter
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12661
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Christmas wishes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just want to take a minute away from trains to wish all our friends here a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
very Merry Christmas and a Happy and blessed New Year.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12662
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Athearn plastic RDC 3 R B D Hi-F New Haven Tri Color [2 Attac...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Jim,  I'm so sorry to hear that you were in such a bad car accident.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thank God that both of you weren't hurt worse that you were.  While you only 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
received bruises out of this, you usually feel them more after the following 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
day or two, So I could guess that you're still hurting from this whole 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
experience.  Sure hope you're feeling better; now that you have more time, it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
might pay to have your wife and yourself checked out by your doctor.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sometimes, bruises can cause underlying results that you may not be immediately aware 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
of.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Glad to learn of the birth of your grandson -- Congratulations!  While the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
name Casey may not be acceptable by everyone else in the family, you might 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
suggest such names as Kenneth Carl (or other such names using the same 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
initials), K.C. = "Casey." (LOL).  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
On your post that I replied to -- I merely meant that, to ME, as I first 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
started reading your response to Chris (with my keeping his statement of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
having metal RDC's with Hi-F drives in the back of my mind), when reading it over 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
fast it seemed that you were saying Chris was correct about that -- but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
when re-reading it, I saw you meant he was correct only with the metal RDC's 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
having geared drive.  But that was only ME, and my first impression, when not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
reading it correctly the first time.  As I stated, and as you pointed out 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
your saying again, I did follow up with noticing your later comment about 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
thinking those Hi-F metal RDC's are a hybrid mix and match -- so I realized then 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
what you said as being correct.  I hope you saw that ending comment of mine 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
in that same paragraph.  Any confusion here was mine at the very beginning 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
of reading your post -- and it was THIS point that I was trying to get 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
across (nothing to do with anything you wrote as being incorrect) -- and I hope I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
haven't confused you with all this.  I was only pointing out to you how I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
misread your post the first time around, when I connected it to everything 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Chris said.  If you'd like, go back and read it and I'm sure you'll see what I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
meant.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
As far as the other roadnames for the plastic RDC's, if you read down 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
further you'll see I included them all in that same post.  They are, besides the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
tri-color New Haven, Undecorated, NH (silver), B&O and Santa Fe.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Too bad about your car being totaled, but at least you guys are alive, were 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
able to walk away from that in one piece, and with only minor injuries -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
and your grandson will now be able to have a grand-dad who can teach him all 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
about H0  model trains.  Take care of yourself,  Ray </HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12663
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Directions for a Varney 2-8-0 old lady needed.
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hi Sean,  Sorry to hear about you mother-in-law being in the hospital.  I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
hope she's better soon.  Sorry too, about your workload around home.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Hopefully that will ease up soon.  About the Varney Old Lady Steam Loco, I don't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
know if this will help but while I don't have the actual directions sheet, I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
have the sheet -- of the first version -- of the exploded view of this 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
engine, showing all parts with names and numbers of them, if that will help.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I would imagine that all Varney post-War "economy" type steam engines would 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
assemble in pretty much the same way.  While the part numbers would be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
different, all the part names would remain the same in the assembly sequence, so 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
you should be able to substitute most any economy engine instruction sheet. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
 If you don't have any others, I could also send you those for any of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
other engines (Pacific, Mike, Berk, Hudson, Heavy Consol, etc.), which should 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
work.  Ray F.W.  </HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12664
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Season's Greetings
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Happy Holidays  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
A Merry Christmas and a Healthy and Prosperous New Year to All.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Ray F. Wetzel</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12665
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Unknown Coach
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                  All,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have attached a pic of a sheetmetal and plastic coach I have had for a while. It is flat sided, with the only details on the sides being wire handrails, and on the roof, a couple plastic vents.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Got one like it, also a combine, lettered for the Illinois Central.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Might want to add cars to these, but have no clue of the make, so don't know what to look for.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The trucks underneath are Varney, sprung, with pizza cutter wheels. Seriously doubt Varney made something this toyish looking (Though these coaches have a charm their own).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12666
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Unknown Coach [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yep. It's Varney. And  I have an Illinois Central car too. 
Definitely Varney. Why wouldn't they produce something like that? They were 
trying anything to stay in business like everyone else and experimenting with a 
nice looking product that was easy to build. Can't blame 'em.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 12/24/2009 5:55:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
computersystemrebuild@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  [Attachment(s) 
  from Stephen Neubaum included below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      All,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have attached a pic of a sheetmetal and 
        plastic coach I have had for a while. It is flat sided, with the only 
        details on the sides being wire handrails, and on the roof, a couple 
        plastic vents.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Got one like it, also a combine, lettered for the 
        Illinois Central.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Might want to add cars to these, but have no 
        clue of the make, so don't know what to look for.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The trucks 
        underneath are Varney, sprung, with pizza cutter wheels. Seriously doubt 
        Varney made something this toyish looking (Though these coaches have a 
        charm their own).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12667
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Unknown Coach [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Without even looking--that's Varney.  60 ft 
cars--there was a combine, coach, and observation.  IC was one of several 
road names--including SP, UP, GN, and several eastern lines.  My books are 
boxed up right now so I can't go look it up.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 2:55 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Unknown Coach [1 
  Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      All,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have attached a pic of a sheetmetal and 
        plastic coach I have had for a while. It is flat sided, with the only 
        details on the sides being wire handrails, and on the roof, a couple 
        plastic vents.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Got one like it, also a combine, lettered for the 
        Illinois Central.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Might want to add cars to these, but have no 
        clue of the make, so don't know what to look for.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The trucks 
        underneath are Varney, sprung, with pizza cutter wheels. Seriously doubt 
        Varney made something this toyish looking (Though these coaches have a 
        charm their own).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2585 - Release 
  Date: 12/24/09 08:11:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12668
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Unknown Coach [1 Attachment]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  How about that--I looked--and it is Varney.  
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 2:55 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Unknown Coach [1 
  Attachment]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      All,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have attached a pic of a sheetmetal and 
        plastic coach I have had for a while. It is flat sided, with the only 
        details on the sides being wire handrails, and on the roof, a couple 
        plastic vents.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Got one like it, also a combine, lettered for the 
        Illinois Central.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Might want to add cars to these, but have no 
        clue of the make, so don't know what to look for.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The trucks 
        underneath are Varney, sprung, with pizza cutter wheels. Seriously doubt 
        Varney made something this toyish looking (Though these coaches have a 
        charm their own).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2585 - Release 
  Date: 12/24/09 08:11:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12669
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Unknown Coach
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                             As 
already stated they are Varney made. They came in 3 types of streamlined cars. 
Combine, Coach and Observation. They came in a number of road names. Great 
Northern and Illinois Central as already stated. Also Union Pacific, 
Pennsylvania, B&O and Southern Pacific Daylight scheme. I have all the sets 
if for any reason you would like to see any special one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                       There had been some talk 
that there was also an uncataloged  Southern Pacific set that had 
silver bodies with just a broad red band at the top. ( talking metal like the 
above not plastic ) Have never seen these and no verification to prove if 
true.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      All metal bodies and floors. 
They came in kits with plastic colored ends that had the roof vents 
already as one piece that  fit into pre cut openings in the metal body 
roofs. As mentioned you attached pre formed handrails depending on the type of 
cars. I feel pretty nice sprung trucks made by Varney . Nice factory paint 
jobs with lettering ( I guess best described as a baked enamel ) on the 
already stated flat body sides.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  luvprr@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 7:08 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unknown 
  Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yep. It's Varney. And  I have an Illinois Central car too. 
  Definitely Varney. Why wouldn't they produce something like that? They were 
  trying anything to stay in business like everyone else and experimenting with 
  a nice looking product that was easy to build. Can't blame 'em.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 12/24/2009 5:55:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
  computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  [Attachment(s) 
    from Stephen Neubaum included below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        All,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have attached a pic of a sheetmetal and 
          plastic coach I have had for a while. It is flat sided, with the only 
          details on the sides being wire handrails, and on the roof, a couple 
          plastic vents.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Got one like it, also a combine, lettered for 
          the Illinois Central.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Might want to add cars to these, but have 
          no clue of the make, so don't know what to look for.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The trucks 
          underneath are Varney, sprung, with pizza cutter wheels. Seriously 
          doubt Varney made something this toyish looking (Though these coaches 
          have a charm their own).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12670
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Unknown Coach
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well, the reason I didn't think of it as Varney, is that it doesn't seem to live up to Varney's standards of detail as I perceive it. I mean, the paper and wood CNW Utility coaches are much nicer, with better detailing. The prewar coaches that Don shows in his galleries, also seem nicer too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Now that my mind has gotten a slight 'push', I think I remember seeing these on fleabay once in a while.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Thu, 12/24/09, luvprr@... <luvprr@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: luvprr@... <luvprr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unknown Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Thursday, December 24, 2009, 6:08 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  





 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                  



                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yep. It's Varney. And  I have an Illinois Central car too. 
Definitely Varney. Why wouldn't they produce something like that? They were 
trying anything to stay in business like everyone else and experimenting with a 
nice looking product that was easy to build. Can't blame 'em.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 12/24/2009 5:55:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  [Attachment(s) 
  from Stephen Neubaum included below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      All,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have attached a pic of a sheetmetal and 
        plastic coach I have had for a while. It is flat sided, with the only 
        details on the sides being wire handrails, and on the roof, a couple 
        plastic vents.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Got one like it, also a combine, lettered for the 
        Illinois Central.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Might want to add cars to these, but have no 
        clue of the make, so don't know what to look for.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The trucks 
        underneath are Varney, sprung, with pizza cutter wheels. Seriously doubt 
        Varney made something this toyish looking (Though these coaches have a 
        charm their own).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
     



 



                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12671
						From: Mr Larry L. Doub
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Merry Christmas Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I was wondering what is the best way to clean the old styrofoam from a Nickel Plate Road Brass train?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I'm hoping to be able to land my Grail of HO one day and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
happened across this last night,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350296180522&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Can this be cleaned off without having to repaint and/or decal it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Thanks for your time and help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12672
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Unknown Coach
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  these were from the era when most HO was going down 
the train-set drain--almost everything was being made to sell cheaply.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 6:41 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unknown 
  Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      Well, the reason I didn't think of it as Varney, is that 
        it doesn't seem to live up to Varney's standards of detail as I perceive 
        it. I mean, the paper and wood CNW Utility coaches are much nicer, with 
        better detailing. The prewar coaches that Don shows in his galleries, 
        also seem nicer too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Now that my mind has gotten a slight 'push', 
        I think I remember seeing these on fleabay once in a 
        while.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                  --- On Thu, 12/24/09, 
        luvprr@... <luvprr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        

                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
          luvprr@... <luvprr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 
          Unknown Coach
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Thursday, 
          December 24, 2009, 6:08 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yep. It's Varney. And  I have an Illinois Central car 
          too. Definitely Varney. Why wouldn't they produce something like that? 
          They were trying anything to stay in business like everyone else and 
          experimenting with a nice looking product that was easy to build. 
          Can't blame 'em.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  In a message dated 12/24/2009 5:55:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
          computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  [Attachment(s) from Stephen Neubaum included 
            below] 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
              
              
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
                All,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have attached a pic of a 
                  sheetmetal and plastic coach I have had for a while. It is 
                  flat sided, with the only details on the sides being wire 
                  handrails, and on the roof, a couple plastic vents.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Got 
                  one like it, also a combine, lettered for the Illinois 
                  Central.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Might want to add cars to these, but have no 
                  clue of the make, so don't know what to look for.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The 
                  trucks underneath are Varney, sprung, with pizza cutter 
                  wheels. Seriously doubt Varney made something this toyish 
                  looking (Though these coaches have a charm their 
                  own).

                                                                                                                                                                                                  -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
          
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Checked by AVG - 
  www.avg.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2585 - Release 
  Date: 12/24/09 08:11:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12673
						From: nvrr49@yahoo.com
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Chester Passenger cars again
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have three cars I am fixing up and I am looking for suggestions on details I should add.  I know very little about passenger cars, so any pointers and suggestions would be appreciated.  I plan on adding full width diaphragms, which were included in the original kits but had rotted away.  I am also planning on using frosted "glass" as I will not be detailng the interior.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best regards,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12674
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Mr Larry L. Doub" <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 10:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Merry Christmas Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I was wondering what is the best way to clean the old styrofoam from a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Nickel Plate Road Brass train?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I'm hoping to be able to land my Grail of HO one day and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> happened across this last night,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350296180522&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Can this be cleaned off without having to repaint and/or decal it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Thanks for your time and help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
You may have to re-decal but paint should not be problem as that particular 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
model was actually plated rather than painted, so a solvent could be used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
If I thought I had a snowball's chance in you know where that it'd stay 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
under a couple hundred bucks I'd bid against you <G>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12675
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am afraid the aggressive foam has etched the nickel plating, and there 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
is no practical way to fix this. I have several plated cars which have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
small imperfections where they apparently once had been touched with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
bare hands ( one has a distinctive black fingerprint on its side ) . As 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
this is basically corrosion which destroys the surface there is no 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
rescue, even worse I was told ( cant confirm this ) that once the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
corrosive process has started it cant be only slowed down but not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
stopped, like the desintegration of zink frames and boilers of old cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
models.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
I have tried to polish several affected models, had some success with a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
few cars from a NPP CZ set which were in a very early stage - only 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
dulling of surface - my elbows still ache when I remember the hours I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
worked on them...... however no amount of polishing would help if there 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
is already damage done, and I am afraid this is the case in the set on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
eBay.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> From: "Mr Larry L. Doub" <larry_l_doub@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> <mailto:larry_l_doub%40yahoo.com>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 10:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Subject: [vintageHO] Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Merry Christmas Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I was wondering what is the best way to clean the old styrofoam from a
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Nickel Plate Road Brass train?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > I'm hoping to be able to land my Grail of HO one day and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > happened across this last night,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350296180522&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350296180522&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Can this be cleaned off without having to repaint and/or decal it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Thanks for your time and help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> > Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> You may have to re-decal but paint should not be problem as that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> particular
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> model was actually plated rather than painted, so a solvent could be used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> If I thought I had a snowball's chance in you know where that it'd stay
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> under a couple hundred bucks I'd bid against you <G>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> don.dellmann@... <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> <http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> <http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12676
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/24/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Some of those foams can be pretty nasty when they deteriorate onto a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
locomotive.  You might resign yourself to having to repaint and/or re-decal 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
it.  Some products you might try are "Goo Gone"  or "Oops!" . both from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
hardware store.  Diluted rubbing alcohol might also work, as might a good 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
dishwashing detergent.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
(when I first read the email title, I thought--is this guy trying to clean 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
foam off a musician or a fish?)      8^)     Re-Boxx has replacement foam if 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
you plan to put it back in the box--  if you put it back in a foam box, Be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
sure to use a poly liner.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
From: "Mr Larry L. Doub" <larry_l_doub@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 8:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Subject: [vintageHO] Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Merry Christmas Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I was wondering what is the best way to clean the old styrofoam from a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Nickel Plate Road Brass train?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> I'm hoping to be able to land my Grail of HO one day and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> happened across this last night,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350296180522&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Can this be cleaned off without having to repaint and/or decal it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Thanks for your time and help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2585 - Release Date: 12/24/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
08:11:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						                                                                                                                                                                                                  		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12677
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Chester Passenger cars again [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 




 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Most of the stuff on the bottom of a passenger car 
is the air brake system, including the rods and chains for the hand brakes. 
There will also be equipment for generating and storing electricity, and 
heating/air conditioning equipment.  A Car Builders' Cyclopedia of the 
proper era can be useful. (unfortunately mine are in storage right now)Similar 
info might be found in the NMRA Data Sheets.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: 
  nvrr49@... 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 9:22 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: [vintageHO] Chester Passenger 
  cars again [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
      
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have three cars I am fixing up and I am looking for suggestions 
        on details I should add.  I know very little about passenger cars, 
        so any pointers and suggestions would be appreciated.  I plan 
        on adding full width diaphragms, which were included in the 
        original kits but had rotted away.  I am also planning on using 
        frosted "glass" as I will not be detailng the interior.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
        
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Best regards,

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kent Hurley
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Kansas City, MO

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Check 
        out my blog at : 
  http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

  

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12678
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 12/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Would this item be a candidate to take to a plating shop and have all of the nickle plating stripped off, the metal repolished and then replated and polished?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                                   --- On Thu, 12/24/09, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
                                                                                                                                                                                                  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Date: Thursday, December 24, 2009, 11:55 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am afraid the aggressive foam has etched the nickel plating, and there 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  is no practical way to fix this. I have several plated cars which have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  small imperfections where they apparently once had been touched with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  bare hands ( one has a distinctive black fingerprint on its side ) . As 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  this is basically corrosion which destroys the surface there is no 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  rescue, even worse I was told ( cant confirm this ) that once the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  corrosive process has started it cant be only slowed down but not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  stopped, like the desintegration of zink frames and boilers of old cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  models.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have tried to polish several affected models, had some success with a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  few cars from a NPP CZ set which were in a very early stage - only 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  dulling of surface - my elbows still ache when I remember the hours I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  worked on them...... however no amount of polishing would help if there 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  is already damage done, and I am afraid this is the
 case in the set on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  eBay.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > From: "Mr Larry L. Doub" <larry_l_doub@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <mailto:larry_l_doub%40yahoo.com>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 10:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Subject: [vintageHO] Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Merry Christmas Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I was wondering what is the best way to clean the old styrofoam from a
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Nickel Plate Road Brass train?
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > I'm hoping to be able to land my Grail of HO one day and
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > happened across this last
 night,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350296180522&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350296180522&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Can this be cleaned off without having to repaint and/or decal it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Thanks for your time and help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > > Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > You may have to re-decal but paint should not be problem as that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > particular
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > model was actually plated rather than painted, so a solvent could be used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > If I thought I had a snowball's chance in you know where
 that it'd stay
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > under a couple hundred bucks I'd bid against you <G>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > don.dellmann@... <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery>
                                                                                                                                                                                                  >
                                                                                                                                                                                                  > 




                                                                                                                                                                                                  ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12679
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 12/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						Subject: passenger train set on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                  
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                  


                                                                                                                                                                                                  Attachments :
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12680
						From: Mr Larry L. Doub
						Date: 12/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the replys, it was very helpfull,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
If this is the case, I think I'm just going to pass this one 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
up and let this work and headache to someone else.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Would this item be a candidate to take to a plating shop and have all of the nickle plating stripped off, the metal repolished and then replated and polished?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- On Thu, 12/24/09, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Thursday, December 24, 2009, 11:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I am afraid the aggressive foam has etched the nickel plating, and there 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> is no practical way to fix this. I have several plated cars which have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> small imperfections where they apparently once had been touched with 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> bare hands ( one has a distinctive black fingerprint on its side ) . As 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> this is basically corrosion which destroys the surface there is no 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> rescue, even worse I was told ( cant confirm this ) that once the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> corrosive process has started it cant be only slowed down but not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> stopped, like the desintegration of zink frames and boilers of old cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> models.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have tried to polish several affected models, had some success with a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> few cars from a NPP CZ set which were in a very early stage - only 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> dulling of surface - my elbows still ache when I remember the hours I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> worked on them...... however no amount of polishing would help if there 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> is already damage done, and I am afraid this is the case in the set on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> eBay.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: "Mr Larry L. Doub" <larry_l_doub@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > <mailto:larry_l_doub%40yahoo.com>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 10:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Merry Christmas Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I was wondering what is the best way to clean the old styrofoam from a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Nickel Plate Road Brass train?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > I'm hoping to be able to land my Grail of HO one day and
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > happened across this last night,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350296180522&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350296180522&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Can this be cleaned off without having to repaint and/or decal it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Thanks for your time and help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > You may have to re-decal but paint should not be problem as that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > particular
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > model was actually plated rather than painted, so a solvent could be used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > If I thought I had a snowball's chance in you know where that it'd stay
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > under a couple hundred bucks I'd bid against you <G>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > don.dellmann@... <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > <http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12681
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Unknown Coach
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    As far as I'm aware (but then it should be noted that I don't collect all 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
train sets), most H0 train SETS were not yet being produced at the time 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Varney first started producing the stamped steel lithographed (& baked) passenger 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
cars.  Except for the large toy train manufacturers, such as A.C. Gilbert 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
for instance which offered two H0 train sets as early as at least 1949 or 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
earlier, the scale H0 manufacturers didn't start producing train sets until the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
mid-1950's.  The toy train manufacturer, Lionel, didn't start offering H0 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
train sets until 1957.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
A.C. Gilbert produced their HO-140 "New York Central 3-Car Hot Shot 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Freight" (Hudson loco with two freight cars and a caboose) and their HO-141 "New 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
York Central 3-Car Mainliner Passenger" (Hudson loco with one HO-133 "New 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Haven" type baggage/mail and two HO-135 "New Haven" type coaches in the year I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
mentioned.  Varney did not start producing train sets until 1954 and Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
didn't start producing train sets until 1956.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Varney first started producing the stamped steel shorty streamlined 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
passenger cars in 1950 (Fall) with the B&O and UP cars; the GN, IC and PRR cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
were released in 1953.  The SP Daylight ((S-10 B, S-11 B and S-12 B) cars were 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
not produced until 1956, however, but the majority of these offerings came 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
out well before most H0 train sets (passenger or freight) ever came on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
market so it does not look as though they were meant to compete during the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
train-set-drain era, being more expensive than any of their highest priced 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
($3.00) freight cars  at $3.50 for either the combine or coach (equal to the C-4 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Bay Window Caboose) and $3.95 for the Observation.  As for the cars Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
also mentioned, the SP Silver & Red (S-10 A, S-11 A and S-12 A) cars supposedly 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
were produced in 1953 along with the three other roads of that year, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
although I have yet to see them either.  Ray F.W.   </HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12682
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 12/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


  
  

 
Try plain water first.  I would try soaking one part of one
body in water to see if the
foam would soften...  If it does then use a gentle detergent to wash
the finish but be careful around lettering with any detergent or
solvent.  I have used paint thinner for enamel paints like
turpentine in similar situations where water does not work.  The paint
thinner will not affect the plated finish but it might dissolve the
lettering.  Sometimes formula 409 works in these situations but it will
also dissolve lettering.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have used all of these items in similar situations.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    =============================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mr Larry L. Doub wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                     

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Merry Christmas Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I was wondering what is the best way to clean the old styrofoam from a
Nickel Plate Road Brass train?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm hoping to be able to land my Grail of HO one day and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
happened across this last night,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=35029618052 2&ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Can this be cleaned off without having to repaint and/or decal it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks for your time and help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12683
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: passenger train set on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have viewed this 
unusual set that is on Ebay that you sent. If you go back in past post for our 
group I had sent pictures of this set of passenger cars that had the round 
windows in the doors, the word Crescent on the side of the one car and the 
B&O roadname as it had been a set that Dave Spanagel and I had tried to ID 
going back to the HOSC&H-SIG group when the NMRA was trying to ID it also 
and had asked for our help. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I had  previously 
identified the engine as being a Crescent brass E unit that had been 
altered to 4 wheel trucks ( the owner had taken out the middle sets )  from 
the normal 6. Again I had identified the engine back a while ago in one of 
the last issues of our newsletter "The Reporting Mark" . Since we had never been able to ID the passenger cars (which I feel 
have also been modified, sought help from this group. I sent pictures 
to this group of the engine and the cars showing close ups of the rounded door 
windows and the word Crescent in blue thinking POSSIBLY the cars could be made 
by Crescent also. (Members had determined there was no B&O passenger just 
called the Crescent). While I had never heard they made passenger 
cars I ask but the consensus from the group also felt the answer was no. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't know how far back this 
would be but there is a thread and pictures of this exact set. No it's not mine 
and I'm not selling it but we knew the owners name at that time . I would 
have to go back to our newsletter to check to see if the seller now is the 
same.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 3:26 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] passenger train set 
  on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thought I post this for others to check:

                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://cgi.ebay. com/UNUSUAL- HO-BRASS- DIESEL-4- COACH-B-O- SET-FIX-PART- DEAL_W0QQitemZ36 0220665580 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12684
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 12/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: passenger train set on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Can anyone comment about the couplers?  I
am not familiar with them and that may help us some.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009
11:46 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] passenger
train set on ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     






                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                          I have viewed this unusual
set that is on Ebay that you sent. If you go back in past post for our group I
had sent pictures of this set of passenger cars that had the round windows
in the doors, the word Crescent on the side of the one car and the B&O
roadname as it had been a set that Dave Spanagel and I had tried to ID going
back to the HOSC&H-SIG group when the NMRA was trying to ID it also and had
asked for our help. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                        I had  previously identified the
engine as being a Crescent brass E unit that had been altered to 4 wheel
trucks ( the owner had taken out the middle sets )  from the normal 6.
Again I had identified the engine back a while ago in one of the last
issues of our newsletter "The Reporting Mark" . Since we
had never been able to ID the passenger cars (which I feel have also been
modified, sought help from this group. I sent pictures to this group
of the engine and the cars showing close ups of the rounded door windows and
the word Crescent in blue thinking POSSIBLY the cars could be made by Crescent
also. (Members had determined there was no B&O passenger just called the
Crescent). While I had never heard they made passenger cars I ask but
the consensus from the group also felt the answer was no. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't know how far back this would be
but there is a thread and pictures of this exact set. No it's not mine and I'm
not selling it but we knew the owners name at that time . I would have to
go back to our newsletter to check to see if the seller now is the same.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 




                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12685
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Athearn plastic RDC 3 R B D Hi-F New Haven Tri Color [2 Attac...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray F W ,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        This is a case of  "No harm 
No Foul"  concerning the Athearn metal RDC thread. I was worried I had 
misinterpreted something. You know better then anyone how I need that good cup 
of coffee before I start writing things and I was afraid I had got my mix all 
talked up. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                         Thanks for the kind words. 
We are OK. and the grandchild a big plus. Enjoy the holidays. Hope Santa brought 
you some nice new ( old and vintage I really mean) trains. I got a lot of items 
for my platform that is in the works.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 1:58 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn plastic 
  RDC 3 R B D Hi-F New Haven Tri Color [2 Attac...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim, I'm so sorry to hear that you were in such a bad car 
  accident. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thank God that both of you weren't hurt worse that you were. 
  While you only 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    received bruises out of this, you usually feel them more 
  after the following 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    day or two, So I could guess that you're still hurting 
  from this whole 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    experience. Sure hope you're feeling better; now that you 
  have more time, it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    might pay to have your wife and yourself checked out by 
  your doctor. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sometimes, bruises can cause underlying results that you may 
  not be immediately aware 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    of.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Glad to learn of the birth of your 
  grandson -- Congratulations! While the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    name Casey may not be acceptable by 
  everyone else in the family, you might 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    suggest such names as Kenneth Carl 
  (or other such names using the same 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    initials), K.C. = "Casey." (LOL). 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    On your post that I replied to -- I merely meant that, to ME, as I 
  first 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    started reading your response to Chris (with my keeping his 
  statement of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    having metal RDC's with Hi-F drives in the back of my mind), 
  when reading it over 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    fast it seemed that you were saying Chris was correct 
  about that -- but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    when re-reading it, I saw you meant he was correct only 
  with the metal RDC's 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    having geared drive. But that was only ME, and my 
  first impression, when not 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    reading it correctly the first time. As I 
  stated, and as you pointed out 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    your saying again, I did follow up with 
  noticing your later comment about 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    thinking those Hi-F metal RDC's are a 
  hybrid mix and match -- so I realized then 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    what you said as being correct. 
  I hope you saw that ending comment of mine 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    in that same paragraph. Any 
  confusion here was mine at the very beginning 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    of reading your post -- and 
  it was THIS point that I was trying to get 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    across (nothing to do with 
  anything you wrote as being incorrect) -- and I hope I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    haven't confused 
  you with all this. I was only pointing out to you how I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    misread your post 
  the first time around, when I connected it to everything 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris said. If 
  you'd like, go back and read it and I'm sure you'll see what I 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    meant.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    As far as the other roadnames for the plastic RDC's, if you 
  read down 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    further you'll see I included them all in that same post. They 
  are, besides the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    tri-color New Haven, Undecorated, NH (silver), B&O 
  and Santa Fe. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Too bad about your car being totaled, but at least you 
  guys are alive, were 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    able to walk away from that in one piece, and with 
  only minor injuries -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    and your grandson will now be able to have a 
  grand-dad who can teach him all 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    about H0 model trains. Take care of 
  yourself, Ray </HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12686
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 12/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: passenger train set on ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    jim heckard wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gerold, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       I have viewed this unusual set that is on Ebay that you sent. If 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> you go back in past post for our group I had sent pictures of this set 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of passenger cars that had the round windows in the doors, the word 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Crescent on the side of the one car and the B&O roadname as it had 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> been a set that Dave Spanagel and I had tried to ID going back to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> HOSC&H-SIG group when the NMRA was trying to ID it also and had asked 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> for our help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
sorry, have not recognized this particular set again.... remember we 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
discussed several E units over the time but this particular one has 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
escaped my memory.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12687
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: odd passenger set on Ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold, Chuck, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Here are 2 pictures of the pages from 
"The Reporting Mark" (Newsletter of the HO SC&H-SIG group) showing pictures 
of that odd engine / passenger car set now on Ebay to help refresh memories.. I 
can't scan so this will have to do. There is also a picture of my Crescent Model 
Products EMC E 6A .
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                      As I previously mentioned these pictures 
were sent around Jan. 2006 by a TCA member  Andy Coles to Dave 
Spanagel ( Author of the Greenberg Guide to Varney Trains and moderator of the 
HOSC&H-SIG group).  Don't know if this person is the seller.  
Dave passed them along to me and  I was able to ID the engine as Crescent. 
As I have stated the trucks had been modified to 4 wheels for what reason I 
don't know. The cars remained a mystery then and later I approached this group 
for help as it always bugged me exactly what they were. I'm sure modified. As I 
stated in the previous Email I just sent this thread was gone over 
months ago with no clear cut answers. You will have to find this previous 
discussion and pictures from back then.  I can't remember when
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck   As for the couplers I 
have to think custom made. They look metal and the closest thing I could find 
would be the big, ugly, plastic HObbyline working couplers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12688
						From: Chris B
						Date: 12/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: odd passenger set on Ebay [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, here's some of the  emails from past discussions  in this group:

                                                                                                                                                                                                    ==========



                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Forwarded Message ----
                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tue, September 2, 2008 12:19:29 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Crescent powered E unit

                                                                                                                                                                                                    








    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Back to basics of lesser known, harder to find vintage 
HO.                                                                                   
This is a Crescent EMC 2800 ( E 3/6 ?) The address was  Crescent Model 
Products    21 Chandelle Road      
Baltimore 20, Maryland. Every piece of information I have found said made in 
1950. It is a sheet brass kit you assembled. A unique part seems to be that it 
came in a couple of boxes. Much like some Varney steam. I have a long 
skinny box that on the end states    Crescent Model 
Product   Diesel Cab Kit  No. DNS 2800-1. Seems like there had to 
at least a No. 2    I also have the end of a much 
bigger box that is square. Don't know how long it was. It 
states    HO Gauge    Passenger Diesel Nose 
Section  Kit Form  No. DNS 2800. You had to solder together the nose 
pieces and shape it as supplied plans show. Wasn't easy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                               The assembly 
of the rest of the kit not to bad. You can see in the picture showing the 
motor/drive that it is gear to gear 6 wheels powered. The other truck a dummy. 
Some of the detail parts especially the ladders look a little oversize. I 
painted and decaled this engine. I showed one of the plans. There are written 
instructions plus the sheet for making the nose. Don't intend to send them to 
save space. If you want now let me know. HO Seeker will have all these plans and 
others I have posted on his site when time available.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                              This is the only 
engine, in fact item, I know by this company. Any one having information about 
other items PLEASE let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim


                                                                                                                                                                                                      IMG_2164_1.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                                    (135KB)                                                                                                                                                                                                    		  IMG_2165_2.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                                    (240KB)                                                                                                                                                                                                    		  IMG_2166_3.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                                    (346KB)

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                      

      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    A few weeks ago as part of a discussion on a Crescent E-6 on eBay, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
mentioned one I have that's brass sheet with a wooden nose.  Jim, you made a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
comment some months back in another thread that leads to believe me you've
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
seen one of these before.  I finally found the pictures tucked away in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
corner of my G drive (every time I replace computes, instead of transferring
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
old data I just piggyback the old drive, my current machine has THREE hard
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
drives),
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Anyway, I'm curious as to what this puppy is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                      

        
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold, Chuck, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Here are 2 pictures of the pages from 
"The Reporting Mark" (Newsletter of the HO SC&H-SIG group) showing pictures 
of that odd engine / passenger car set now on Ebay to help refresh memories.. I 
can't scan so this will have to do. There is also a picture of my Crescent Model 
Products EMC E 6A .
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                      As I previously mentioned these pictures 
were sent around Jan. 2006 by a TCA member  Andy Coles to Dave 
Spanagel ( Author of the Greenberg Guide to Varney Trains and moderator of the 
HOSC&H-SIG group).  Don't know if this person is the seller.  
Dave passed them along to me and  I was able to ID the engine as Crescent. 
As I have stated the trucks had been modified to 4 wheels for what reason I 
don't know. The cars remained a mystery then and later I approached this group 
for help as it always bugged me exactly what they were. I'm sure modified. As I 
stated in the previous Email I just sent this thread was gone over 
months ago with no clear cut answers. You will have to find this previous 
discussion and pictures from back then.  I can't remember when
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck   As for the couplers I 
have to think custom made. They look metal and the closest thing I could find 
would be the big, ugly, plastic HObbyline working couplers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
     







                                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12689
						From: Chris B
						Date: 12/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: odd passenger set on Ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    here's a few more:

                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Forwarded Message ----
                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Mon, March 30, 2009 11:08:08 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Ebay Brass Engine Body

                                                                                                                                                                                                    









    
            
                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                     Hi Gerold, Mike B, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
These are pictures of my Crescent Model E-6 like the one on Ebay Gerold 
sent. The first picture is a completed model that I painted and decaled. Excuse 
that the decals are so visible. Never got a coat of Dullcoat on it. The next two 
pictures show the plans, different boxes and many extra parts.You can see an 
extra nose piece and the plans to make it.You have to form and solder it. The 
drive is a single 6 wheel drive that is something common with open frame motor. 
Not sure whose. Could be Walthers or Andeco. Have a complete assembly sheet not 
shown but all were given to HOseeker and on his site. Let me know if there is 
anything else you would like to know.  I "think" there was a B unit 
made.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                           To Mike 
B   If this extra assembled nose piece or other parts will help you 
contact me off site at  jimheck@losch. net.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                            

                                                                                                                                                                                                      IMG_2986_1.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                                    (255KB)                                                                                                                                                                                                    		  IMG_2987_2.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                                    (364KB)                                                                                                                                                                                                    		  IMG_2988_3.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                                    (317KB)

                                                                                                                                                                                                    ======================


                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Forwarded Message ----
                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sat, April 11, 2009 3:30:56 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] PING Jim H.-Brass & wood E-6 [7 Attachments]

                                                                                                                                                                                                    









    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    A few weeks ago as part of a discussion on a Crescent E-6 on eBay, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
mentioned one I have that's brass sheet with a wooden nose.  Jim, you made a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
comment some months back in another thread that leads to believe me you've
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
seen one of these before.  I finally found the pictures tucked away in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
corner of my G drive (every time I replace computes, instead of transferring
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
old data I just piggyback the old drive, my current machine has THREE hard
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
drives),
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Anyway, I'm curious as to what this puppy is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                      

        
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold, Chuck, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Here are 2 pictures of the pages from 
"The Reporting Mark" (Newsletter of the HO SC&H-SIG group) showing pictures 
of that odd engine / passenger car set now on Ebay to help refresh memories.. I 
can't scan so this will have to do. There is also a picture of my Crescent Model 
Products EMC E 6A .
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                      As I previously mentioned these pictures 
were sent around Jan. 2006 by a TCA member  Andy Coles to Dave 
Spanagel ( Author of the Greenberg Guide to Varney Trains and moderator of the 
HOSC&H-SIG group).  Don't know if this person is the seller.  
Dave passed them along to me and  I was able to ID the engine as Crescent. 
As I have stated the trucks had been modified to 4 wheels for what reason I 
don't know. The cars remained a mystery then and later I approached this group 
for help as it always bugged me exactly what they were. I'm sure modified. As I 
stated in the previous Email I just sent this thread was gone over 
months ago with no clear cut answers. You will have to find this previous 
discussion and pictures from back then.  I can't remember when
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck   As for the couplers I 
have to think custom made. They look metal and the closest thing I could find 
would be the big, ugly, plastic HObbyline working couplers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
     





                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12690
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 12/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Are you very sure about not going for the model?????
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Right now, you can't be sure that the plating is ruined.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Even if it is, you will have a nice vintage piece made of etched  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
metal bought for a decently low price. Even if the plating is  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
damaged, you can clean her up, prepare it for painting, and use the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
very high gloss, mirror-finish, Chrome spray paint to make her look  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
brand new.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Later on, the paint chrome paint could be stripped off and you can  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
get her real chrome plated; or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
You could also just clean her up very well and re-skin her with the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
shiny side of aluminum foil using the MicroScale foil adhesive.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
You'll find chrome versions of those metal foils in the art/craft  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
supply stores.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have one of these streamliners and I like her a lot. Even if I had  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
to resurface and paint or otherwise re-skin her, I'd keep her.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
You might like to repower her with a 90-degree gearbox and a modern  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
can motor lying in line with the floor. The GrandtLine 90-degree  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
gearbox has been used for this by a number of modelers. Other than  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
putting lighting and possibly sound in her [she has an early EMD/EMC  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
'Winton' switcher engine in her], you'll have a great model even if  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
you leave her as stock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     On Dec 25, 2009, at 3:31 AM, Mr Larry L. Doub wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks for the replys, it was very helpfull,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> If this is the case, I think I'm just going to pass this one
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> up and let this work and headache to someone else.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Would this item be a candidate to take to a plating shop and have  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> all of the nickle plating stripped off, the metal repolished and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> then replated and polished?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> --- On Thu, 12/24/09, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Date: Thursday, December 24, 2009, 11:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I am afraid the aggressive foam has etched the nickel plating, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> there
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> is no practical way to fix this. I have several plated cars which  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> have
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> small imperfections where they apparently once had been touched with
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> bare hands ( one has a distinctive black fingerprint on its  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> side ) . As
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> this is basically corrosion which destroys the surface there is no
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> rescue, even worse I was told ( cant confirm this ) that once the
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> corrosive process has started it cant be only slowed down but not
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> stopped, like the desintegration of zink frames and boilers of old  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> cast
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> models.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I have tried to polish several affected models, had some success  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> few cars from a NPP CZ set which were in a very early stage - only
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> dulling of surface - my elbows still ache when I remember the hours I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> worked on them...... however no amount of polishing would help if  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> there
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> is already damage done, and I am afraid this is the case in the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> set on
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> eBay.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> From: "Mr Larry L. Doub" <larry_l_doub@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> <mailto:larry_l_doub%40yahoo.com>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 10:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Subject: [vintageHO] Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>> Merry Christmas Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>> I was wondering what is the best way to clean the old styrofoam  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>> from a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>> Nickel Plate Road Brass train?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>> I'm hoping to be able to land my Grail of HO one day and
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>> happened across this last night,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> ViewItem&item=350296180522&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> ViewItem&item=350296180522&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>> Can this be cleaned off without having to repaint and/or decal it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>> Thanks for your time and help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>> Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>> Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> You may have to re-decal but paint should not be problem as that
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> particular
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> model was actually plated rather than painted, so a solvent could  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> be used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> If I thought I had a snowball's chance in you know where that  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> it'd stay
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> under a couple hundred bucks I'd bid against you <G>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Don 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12691
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: odd passenger set on Ebay
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks Chris I couldn't find 
them. Gerold I hope they help fill in that item on Ebay now. It's actually odd 
that it keeps popping up for me a number of times since 2006. Maybe I'm suppose 
to buy them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: 
  Chris 
  B 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 2:26 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd passenger 
  set on Ebay
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim, here's some of the  emails from past discussions  in this 
  group:

                                                                                                                                                                                                    ==========

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Forwarded Message 
  ----
                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Jim Heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tue, September 2, 2008 12:19:29 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] 
  Crescent powered E unit

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Gerold,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  Back to basics of lesser known, harder to find vintage 
  HO.                                                                                   
  This is a Crescent EMC 2800 ( E 3/6 ?) The address was  Crescent Model 
  Products    21 Chandelle Road      
  Baltimore 20, Maryland. Every piece of information I have found said made in 
  1950. It is a sheet brass kit you assembled. A unique part seems to be that it 
  came in a couple of boxes. Much like some Varney steam. I have a long 
  skinny box that on the end states    Crescent Model 
  Product   Diesel Cab Kit  No. DNS 2800-1. Seems like there had 
  to at least a No. 2    I also have the end of a much 
  bigger box that is square. Don't know how long it was. It 
  states    HO Gauge    Passenger Diesel Nose 
  Section  Kit Form  No. DNS 2800. You had to solder together the nose 
  pieces and shape it as supplied plans show. Wasn't easy.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                               The 
  assembly of the rest of the kit not to bad. You can see in the picture showing 
  the motor/drive that it is gear to gear 6 wheels powered. The other truck a 
  dummy. Some of the detail parts especially the ladders look a little oversize. 
  I painted and decaled this engine. I showed one of the plans. There are 
  written instructions plus the sheet for making the nose. Don't intend to send 
  them to save space. If you want now let me know. HO Seeker will have all these 
  plans and others I have posted on his site when time available.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                              This is the 
  only engine, in fact item, I know by this company. Any one having information 
  about other items PLEASE let me know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  Jim


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
        IMG_2164_1.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                                    (135KB)                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
        IMG_2165_2.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                                    (240KB)                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
        IMG_2166_3.JPG
                                                                                                                                                                                                    (346KB)

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    A few weeks ago as part of a discussion on a Crescent E-6 on eBay, 
  I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    mentioned one I have that's brass sheet with a wooden nose. Jim, you made 
  a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    comment some months back in another thread that leads to believe me 
  you've
                                                                                                                                                                                                    seen one of these before. I finally found the pictures tucked away 
  in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    corner of my G drive (every time I replace computes, instead of 
  transferring
                                                                                                                                                                                                    old data I just piggyback the old drive, my current machine 
  has THREE hard
                                                                                                                                                                                                    drives),

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Anyway, I'm curious as to what this puppy 
  is.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ 
  prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ 
  don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio 
  n
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold, Chuck, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                       Here are 2 pictures of the pages 
  from "The Reporting Mark" (Newsletter of the HO SC&H-SIG group) showing 
  pictures of that odd engine / passenger car set now on Ebay to help refresh 
  memories.. I can't scan so this will have to do. There is also a picture of my 
  Crescent Model Products EMC E 6A .
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      As I previously mentioned these pictures 
  were sent around Jan. 2006 by a TCA member  Andy Coles to Dave 
  Spanagel ( Author of the Greenberg Guide to Varney Trains and moderator of the 
  HOSC&H-SIG group).  Don't know if this person is the 
  seller.  Dave passed them along to me and  I was able to ID the 
  engine as Crescent. As I have stated the trucks had been modified to 4 wheels 
  for what reason I don't know. The cars remained a mystery then and later I 
  approached this group for help as it always bugged me exactly what they were. 
  I'm sure modified. As I stated in the previous Email I just sent 
  this thread was gone over months ago with no clear cut answers. You will have 
  to find this previous discussion and pictures from back then.  I can't 
  remember when
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Chuck   As for the couplers 
  I have to think custom made. They look metal and the closest thing I could 
  find would be the big, ugly, plastic HObbyline working couplers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12692
						From: Mike Bauers
						Date: 12/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Cleaning thoughts......
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Castrol SuperClean [auto stores - water based stuff] to moistened tee- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
shirt type of shop rags, hand scrubbing in the foam impacted areas,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
followed with a finish of auto-body paste wax over the entire model.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
For patch repairs of the plating, you would like the look of Bare  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Metal self adhesive thin foil.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.bare-metal.com/How-to-use-Bare-Metal-Foil.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.bare-metal.com/bare-metal-foil.html
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     On Dec 25, 2009, at 3:31 AM, Mr Larry L. Doub wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks for the replys, it was very helpfull,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> If this is the case, I think I'm just going to pass this one
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> up and let this work and headache to someone else.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Would this item be a candidate to take to a plating shop and have  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> all of the nickle plating stripped off, the metal repolished and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> then replated and polished?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> --- On Thu, 12/24/09, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> From: Gerold Eckl
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I am afraid the aggressive foam has etched the nickel plating, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> there
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> is no practical way to fix this. I have several plated cars which  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> have
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> small imperfections where they apparently once had been touched with
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> bare hands ( one has a distinctive black fingerprint on its  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> side ) . As
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> this is basically corrosion which destroys the surface there is no
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> rescue, even worse I was told ( cant confirm this ) that once the
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> corrosive process has started it cant be only slowed down but not
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> stopped, like the desintegration of zink frames and boilers of old  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> cast
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> models.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I have tried to polish several affected models, had some success  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> few cars from a NPP CZ set which were in a very early stage - only
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> dulling of surface - my elbows still ache when I remember the hours I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> worked on them...... however no amount of polishing would help if  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> there
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> is already damage done, and I am afraid this is the case in the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> set on
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> eBay. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12693
						From: Mr Larry L. Doub
						Date: 12/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm really sure I';m not going to go for this one, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yes as much As it would tickle me to death to have a Zephyr,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
and as much reading as I have done about RTR and taking time to build up things and/or redo or work on, I just don't see a project like this added on to everything I have already.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Even at the chance it could be ok, I'm still going to pass.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
If I had I layout up or something going then maybe, but for now, I'll just bied  my time and wait out the day I'll land one.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Who knows, maybe I'll still win the powerball, thwn I'll have me the real deal for us all to ride in :-) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Are you very sure about not going for the model?????
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Right now, you can't be sure that the plating is ruined.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Even if it is, you will have a nice vintage piece made of etched  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> metal bought for a decently low price. Even if the plating is  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> damaged, you can clean her up, prepare it for painting, and use the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> very high gloss, mirror-finish, Chrome spray paint to make her look  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> brand new.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Later on, the paint chrome paint could be stripped off and you can  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> get her real chrome plated; or not.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You could also just clean her up very well and re-skin her with the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> shiny side of aluminum foil using the MicroScale foil adhesive.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You'll find chrome versions of those metal foils in the art/craft  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> supply stores.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have one of these streamliners and I like her a lot. Even if I had  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to resurface and paint or otherwise re-skin her, I'd keep her.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> You might like to repower her with a 90-degree gearbox and a modern  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> can motor lying in line with the floor. The GrandtLine 90-degree  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> gearbox has been used for this by a number of modelers. Other than  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> putting lighting and possibly sound in her [she has an early EMD/EMC  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 'Winton' switcher engine in her], you'll have a great model even if  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> you leave her as stock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Best to ya'
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mike Bauers
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Milwaukee Wi, USA
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> On Dec 25, 2009, at 3:31 AM, Mr Larry L. Doub wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Thanks for the replys, it was very helpfull,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > If this is the case, I think I'm just going to pass this one
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > up and let this work and headache to someone else.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Would this item be a candidate to take to a plating shop and have  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> all of the nickle plating stripped off, the metal repolished and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> then replated and polished?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> --- On Thu, 12/24/09, Gerold Eckl <corv8@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Date: Thursday, December 24, 2009, 11:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> I am afraid the aggressive foam has etched the nickel plating, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> there
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> is no practical way to fix this. I have several plated cars which  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> have
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> small imperfections where they apparently once had been touched with
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> bare hands ( one has a distinctive black fingerprint on its  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> side ) . As
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> this is basically corrosion which destroys the surface there is no
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> rescue, even worse I was told ( cant confirm this ) that once the
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> corrosive process has started it cant be only slowed down but not
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> stopped, like the desintegration of zink frames and boilers of old  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> cast
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> models.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> I have tried to polish several affected models, had some success  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> with a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> few cars from a NPP CZ set which were in a very early stage - only
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> dulling of surface - my elbows still ache when I remember the hours I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> worked on them...... however no amount of polishing would help if  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> there
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> is already damage done, and I am afraid this is the case in the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> set on
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> eBay.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >> Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> From: "Mr Larry L. Doub" <larry_l_doub@
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> <mailto:larry_l_doub%40yahoo.com>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 10:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> Subject: [vintageHO] Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>> Merry Christmas Everyone,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>> I was wondering what is the best way to clean the old styrofoam  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>> from a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>> Nickel Plate Road Brass train?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>> I'm hoping to be able to land my Grail of HO one day and
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>> happened across this last night,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> ViewItem&item=350296180522&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> ViewItem&item=350296180522&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>> Can this be cleaned off without having to repaint and/or decal it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>> Thanks for your time and help,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>> Larry L Doub
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>> Davenport Iowa
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> You may have to re-decal but paint should not be problem as that
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> particular
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> model was actually plated rather than painted, so a solvent could  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> be used.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> If I thought I had a snowball's chance in you know where that  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> it'd stay
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> under a couple hundred bucks I'd bid against you <G>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >>> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12694
						From: Charlie
						Date: 12/25/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: E6B  Body Wanted
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Looking for a Bowser or other E6B body only for a kitbash of the Rock 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Island AB6. Will be stripped etc.  Must be a B unit with the roof 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
details.  Only use half of them only.  Doing the early version of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
AB6 with only one motor and baggage doors.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Charlie Harris
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
New Zealand
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12695
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Mr Larry L. Doub wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm really sure I';m not going to go for this one, and
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yes as much As it would tickle me to death to have a Zephyr,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Larry,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
You may have a chance to get a perfect one at a reasonable price... they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
sold at $400 + until the release of the Con-Cor plastic version , bought 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
two of them some years ago. First one for $450 at Caboose Hobbies, a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
three unit ... after  several unsuccessful bids on seperate extra cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
which had really crazy prices then I bought a second one, again at $450 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
WITH the extra car, with the intention to resell one without car... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
well, I rarely sell anything so I still have both, and I even have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
bought a second add on car when I found one for $80....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To my great frustration, then word came out about the Con-Cor model... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
although I am unhappy with the lousy drive of my NPP Zephyr and would 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
prefer ANY other power truck ( have put a SPUD under one, which makes it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
underpowered) I still drool over the plated body of my units... however 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have noticed , that prices have dropped considerably, have seen nice 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
one going under $300. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Right now there is the rare  B&M version - which I have seldom seen 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
before - at eBay.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12696
						From: Howard R Garner
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    One way to remove the foam is with vinegar.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
That is what I use when cleaning old Central Valley trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Howard Garner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12697
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Foam from Nickle Plate Road Bass
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Judging from the photos, there IS considerable corrosive foam damage, possibly even etching into the brass underlying the thin nickel plating.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
If the train (Burlington Pioneer Zephyr) can be purchased for the right price, e.g. $250 MAX, I do not think I would not worry too much about the foam damage if you are willing to either accept it as it is (shelf model, good side only in view), have it re-plated (expensive and very hazardous to the model inasmuch as the underlying brass has to be first polished and buffed by hands not used to models; and is the brass also corroded?);  or... simply painting the model.   The last choice is best IMHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
In real time, a lot of serious passenger car modelers are currently improving their their older plated models by painting them with Alclad II paint (http://www.alclad2.com/alclad-home.html). This is a method that has arisen from the scale model airplane hobby.  It first requires  a good undercoat of gloss black (most commonly, Scalecoat).  The results are spectacular, and considered by many to be superior to the best original plating in the actual representation of stainless steel. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have owned one of these NIckel Plate Zephyr models (as is listed on eBay) since it was first produced in early '70s or so, and the biggest problem is not the plating, intact or not, but the drive.  There are very few of these relatively commonly-available  models actually usable in any practical way inasmuch as the drive train of plastic spur gears are notoriously made up of uncured plastic, and most (all?) of the gears if not split decades ago will almmost assuredly split at some point. Although NWSL DOES makes replacement gears, they cannot be installed without halving gear thickness (not easy), and non-destructively removing the rivets on which the gears are mounted, and replacing them with 0-80 screws (a lot of work, but doable- and it has been done). 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I haven't gone into all the electric pickup problems also inherent in how this power truck is put together and mounted...., nor the problems in getting enough weight over the power truck so that the power car has enough traction to get itself out of its own way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
By serendipity, I recently finally replaced the original power truck with a Hollywood Foundry Bullant Major power truck. This has so far been very satisfactory inasmuch as the train now seamlessly tracks through the most complicated trackwork smoothly, quietly, and without a single hitch.  A DCC decoder is interposed between the rail power and the motor, but has nothing to do with the now-smooth operating characteristics. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The original power truck has been bagged and tagged and placed back into the box (all foam replaced!).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Denny S. Anspach, MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12698
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: latest building
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                
Some pictures of the latest building I completed for my in progress new layout. 
While I am still mainly sticking to a retro type layout using items from the 
past I have had to get some newer items to fill in certain areas.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        This is a J L Innovative laser 
kit that fills in a needed open space. I'm far from a master builder but not to 
shabby.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12699
						From: Dale Smith
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Unknown Coach
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


  
  

 
Gilbert's HO-140 set was first offered in the 1946 catalog, along with
the HO-141 passenger set and an HO-142 7 car freight set.   Their first
sets, which were similar in composition, but with earlier versions of
all the rolling stock were the HO-100, HO-101, and HO-102,( the
passenger set) offered in 1938.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dale Smith
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
www.gilbertho.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
erieberk@... wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                     

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
A.C. Gilbert produced their HO-140 "New York Central 3-Car Hot Shot 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Freight" (Hudson loco with two freight cars and a caboose) and their
HO-141 "New 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
York Central 3-Car Mainliner Passenger" (Hudson loco with one HO-133
"New 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Haven" type baggage/mail and two HO-135 "New Haven" type coaches in the
year I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
mentioned. Varney did not start producing train sets until 1954 and
Athearn 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
didn't start producing train sets until 1956. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
 

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    .
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
   
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12700
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am afraid I have to correct my own identification .... when rummaging 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
in old saved auctions, I found a Challenger which seems to be a dead 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
match for both Michaels and my loco...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200397102771
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
and here the same type from Key, with more up to current standard 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
detailing:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150359349381
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12701
						From: ckinzer@att.net
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    It looks like a match to me, too.  But I think 
it may still be an open question if it is LMB.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    While Caboose Trains is a sophisticated seller, I 
wonder how they are sure.  What is the "provenance" of this engine before 
it got into their hands.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm pretty sure that from time to time the same 
engine builder got distributed by more than one importer.  
Yes?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Remember, the Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon said LMB 
was 6 wheel powered, and this is 12.  But information of older models in 
any of the books may itself be incorrect or imcomplete.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    And did any LMB models ever come in a wood 
box.  I don't know.  Anyone?  Anyone?  The wood box may turn 
out to be the biggest clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Maybe Caboose hobbies had the original box for it 
but it was so horrible they replaced it?  Or perhaps they had some original 
sales receipt?  Might be worth a call to them since that sort of 
information would nail it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck K.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 1:15 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Brass 
  Engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am afraid I have to correct my own identification .... when rummaging 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    in old saved auctions, I found a Challenger which seems to be a dead 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    match for both Michaels and my loco...

                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=20039710277 1

                                                                                                                                                                                                    and 
  here the same type from Key, with more up to current standard 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    detailing:

                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=15035934938 1

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Gerold

                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12702
						From: Gerold Eckl
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    ckinzer@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It looks like a match to me, too.  But I think it may still be an open 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> question if it is LMB.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> While Caboose Trains is a sophisticated seller, I wonder how they are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> sure.  What is the "provenance" of this engine before it got into 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> their hands. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm pretty sure that from time to time the same engine builder got 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> distributed by more than one importer.  Yes?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Remember, the Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon said LMB was 6 wheel 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> powered, and this is 12.  But information of older models in any of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the books may itself be incorrect or imcomplete.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> And did any LMB models ever come in a wood box.  I don't know.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Anyone?  Anyone?  The wood box may turn out to be the biggest clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Maybe Caboose hobbies had the original box for it but it was so 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> horrible they replaced it?  Or perhaps they had some original sales 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> receipt?  Might be worth a call to them since that sort of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> information would nail it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I agree that this alone isnt a proof  .... from what I know of The 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Caboose, they wont rebox an engine - most likely they got it that way. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
So its possible it was mislabeled long ago....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I found that you cant rely on the knowledge of the staff of brass 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
dealers anymore, there seems to be a considerable fluctuation under the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
employees... If you watch their online catalogs you will sometimes 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
mislabeled items that should be correctly identified by anyone with some 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
background in this trade.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
So the question still remains open... until a loco in the original box 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
shows up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gerold
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12703
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Couple of questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I dragged a box of stuff home from my brother's place yesterday.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have a boxcar, plastic, UP, "Road of the Streamliners", road number 106132, brown car.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Frame is cast, painted black, says "Penn Line", and under that, "419".
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
4 slot head small screws in the corners, haven't been out in decades, right?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Got it apart, says "Mantua" under the roof.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
????????
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://hoseeker.net/pennline/pennlinecatalog1959pg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
looks like the boxcar.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
and here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://hoseeker.net/pennline/pennlinecatalog1962pg07.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Next, I have a chassis I am trying to find out what to look for in the boxes that goes on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Short, length of a caboose.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Black plastic, sprung metal talgo trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Revell 1958" and "5000-001" inside the center beam.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Floor wood detail on one side, like a door of a drover's caboose, and a notch "V" shaped on one side, next to a boss, like something swung on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
What should I be looking for to be on top?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12704
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Couple of questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
For the caboose floor...  A plastic body for a caboose with
simulated vertical wood board siding and three windows on each side. 
It may be white, red, brown or yellow.  The roof could be the same
color as the sides or it could be black or brown.  It has an 8 window
cupola on the top of the roof.  They came in several road names.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
===========================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
trainsnwrcs wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                     

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I dragged a box of stuff home from my brother's place yesterday.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have a boxcar, plastic, UP, "Road of the Streamliners" , road
number 106132, brown car.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Frame is cast, painted black, says "Penn Line", and under that, "419".
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
4 slot head small screws in the corners, haven't been out in decades,
right?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Got it apart, says "Mantua" under the roof.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
????????
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  http://hoseeker. net/pennline/ pennlinecatalog1 959pg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
looks like the boxcar.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
and here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  http://hoseeker. net/pennline/ pennlinecatalog1 962pg07.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Next, I have a chassis I am trying to find out what to look for in the
boxes that goes on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Short, length of a caboose.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Black plastic, sprung metal talgo trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Revell 1958" and "5000-001" inside the center beam.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Floor wood detail on one side, like a door of a drover's caboose, and a
notch "V" shaped on one side, next to a boss, like something swung on
it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
What should I be looking for to be on top?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12705
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Couple of questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Okay......what is the notch for?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I tried and tried to find a car somewhere that would have something of that length with something swinging....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I finally just called my brother and had him bring all the boxes here on the 1st.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > /For the caboose floor...  A plastic body for a caboose with simulated 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> vertical wood board siding and three windows on each side.  It may be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> white, red, brown or yellow.  The roof could be the same color as the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> sides or it could be black or brown.  It has an 8 window cupola on the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> top of the roof.  They came in several road names.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ===========================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> /
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> trainsnwrcs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I dragged a box of stuff home from my brother's place yesterday.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I have a boxcar, plastic, UP, "Road of the Streamliners", road number 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 106132, brown car.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Frame is cast, painted black, says "Penn Line", and under that, "419".
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 4 slot head small screws in the corners, haven't been out in decades, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > right?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Got it apart, says "Mantua" under the roof.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ????????
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://hoseeker.net/pennline/pennlinecatalog1959pg1.jpg 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > <http://hoseeker.net/pennline/pennlinecatalog1959pg1.jpg>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > looks like the boxcar.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > and here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://hoseeker.net/pennline/pennlinecatalog1962pg07.jpg 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > <http://hoseeker.net/pennline/pennlinecatalog1962pg07.jpg>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Next, I have a chassis I am trying to find out what to look for in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > boxes that goes on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Short, length of a caboose.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Black plastic, sprung metal talgo trucks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > "Revell 1958" and "5000-001" inside the center beam.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Floor wood detail on one side, like a door of a drover's caboose, and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > a notch "V" shaped on one side, next to a boss, like something swung 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > on it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > What should I be looking for to be on top?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12706
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Couple of questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
No clue on last question.  View a picture here...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=130353381467
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
===============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    trainsnwrcs wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                     

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Okay......what is the notch for?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I tried and tried to find a car somewhere that would have something of
that length with something swinging....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I finally just called my brother and had him bring all the boxes here
on the 1st.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> /For the caboose floor... A plastic body for a caboose with
simulated 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> vertical wood board siding and three windows on each side. It may
be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> white, red, brown or yellow. The roof could be the same color as
the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> sides or it could be black or brown. It has an 8 window cupola on
the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> top of the roof. They came in several road names.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12707
						From: Donald R. Staton
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Couple of questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


  

 
Sorry the link did not work. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
=================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Donald R. Staton wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                     

  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    No clue on last question.  View a picture here...
http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?VISuperSize&item=130353381467
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
============ ========= ========= ========= ========
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                                                                      trainsnwrcs wrote:
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Okay......what is the notch for?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I tried and tried to find a car somewhere that would have something of
that length with something swinging....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I finally just called my brother and had him bring all the boxes here
on the 1st.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> /For the caboose floor... A plastic body for a caboose with
simulated 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> vertical wood board siding and three windows on each side. It may
be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> white, red, brown or yellow. The roof could be the same color as
the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> sides or it could be black or brown. It has an 8 window cupola on
the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> top of the roof. They came in several road names.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Staton in VA.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12708
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: FYI Lionel Hustler/Husky
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    You may recall the Lionel Hustler/Husky loco that I had put up on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
eBay a week ago. The auction closed this evening with a final sale price 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
of over $75. I had no idea that the demand for one of these was that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
high, but I had some suspicions when I started seeing over 30 Watchers 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
listed in My eBay.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
    Originally I was going to throw it in with the Box O' Junk, and the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Athearn Hi-F GP too. Now I'm glad I decided to put them up separately. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The Box O' Junk is still up there until tomorrow afternoon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260526520949&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
If Raquel Welch had made a movie with Cassius Clay it would have
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
been like bringing the mountains to Mohammad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12709
						From: John H
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Couple of questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Go to ebay and enter the numbers at the end of the link (130353381467
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
) in the search box.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> /Sorry the link did not work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> =================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> /
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Donald R. Staton wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > /No clue on last question.  View a picture here... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=130353381467 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=130353381467>/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=130353381467>/Don 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > =============================================== 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12710
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Couple of questions
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    That worked!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I think I may have that shell.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > Go to ebay and enter the numbers at the end of the link (130353381467
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ) in the search box.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > /Sorry the link did not work.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Don Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > =================================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > /
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Donald R. Staton wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > /No clue on last question.  View a picture here... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=130353381467 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=130353381467>/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=130353381467>/Don 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Staton in VA
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > ===============================================
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12711
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a boxcar, had it for some time, as junk.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Outside braced, GN, brown (boxcar red, to be precise).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
HORRIBLY assembled, fallen apart, the outside bracings are one-piece castings, of which one was gone (hence the "junk" status).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I found the other outside bracing yesterday, cleaned up, re-glued, fixed the paint, looking for the rest of the bits, pretty sure I will find them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Anyway:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
It appears to be Silver Streak, by the metal roof ridges that bend over the edges of the roof.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yet, extensive research on HOSeeker shows the only outside-braced GN boxcar was by Ulrich.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The road number is 31055.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Anybody have any better information?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12712
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: FYI Lionel Hustler/Husky
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    And to think that there for a while I thought I would win it with my $20.00 bid, all the way thru Christmas day!!!!!!LOL
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I accumulate Hustlers, must have close to 30, in most colors and road numbers, most for $15 to$20 and as little as $10.00 for a sleeper. But only 1 Husky.  The rest just went for way more than I would pay for one.  Yes, I can easily afford the higher price for another Husky, I am just too cheap to pay that much!!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913
                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Sat, 12/26/09, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] FYI Lionel Hustler/Husky
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Saturday, December 26, 2009, 7:38 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        You may recall the Lionel Hustler/Husky loco that I had put up on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    eBay a week ago. The auction closed this evening with a final sale price 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    of over $75. I had no idea that the demand for one of these was that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    high, but I had some suspicions when I started seeing over 30 Watchers 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    listed in My eBay.
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Originally I was going to throw it in with the Box O' Junk, and the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Athearn Hi-F GP too. Now I'm glad I decided to put them up separately. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    The Box O' Junk is still up there until tomorrow afternoon.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260526520949&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

                                                                                                                                                                                                    -- 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Rick Jones

                                                                                                                                                                                                    If Raquel Welch had made a movie with Cassius Clay it
 would have
                                                                                                                                                                                                    been like bringing the mountains to Mohammad.


                                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12713
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I think I have one of those cars, where the outside bracing is all cast as one piece (Four total - one for each quarter of the car either side of the door.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Unfortuantely, mine is pretty bad up - my back kicked out, and I fell over, right into a box of vintage model trains, which went all over the place. Mostly salvagable, but this outside braced car needs LOTS of help.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I do think mine is an Ulrich, so if you can provide a picture of the car, I can tell you if it is like mine (Which is lettered for the Seaboard).

                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Sat, 12/26/09, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] ANOTHER question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Saturday, December 26, 2009, 10:11 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                    





 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a boxcar, had it for some time, as junk.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Outside braced, GN, brown (boxcar red, to be precise).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
HORRIBLY assembled, fallen apart, the outside bracings are one-piece castings, of which one was gone (hence the "junk" status).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I found the other outside bracing yesterday, cleaned up, re-glued, fixed the paint, looking for the rest of the bits, pretty sure I will find them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Anyway:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
It appears to be Silver Streak, by the metal roof ridges that bend over the edges of the roof.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yet, extensive research on HOSeeker shows the only outside-braced GN boxcar was by Ulrich.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The road number is 31055.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Anybody have any better information?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
     



 



                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12714
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Not quite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
On this one, the bracing is two piecs total, one piece per side, with ledges for doorways.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
End steps are cast as part of side bracing casting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Car ends are separate castings.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Wood center sill, with the metal cross braces only on each side of the center sill.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Same at bolsters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The wood sides actually sit on a lip at the bottom of the braces.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I can't get any photos until Sunday, try then.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I think I have one of those cars, where the outside bracing is all cast as one piece (Four total - one for each quarter of the car either side of the door.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Unfortuantely, mine is pretty bad up - my back kicked out, and I fell over, right into a box of vintage model trains, which went all over the place. Mostly salvagable, but this outside braced car needs LOTS of help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I do think mine is an Ulrich, so if you can provide a picture of the car, I can tell you if it is like mine (Which is lettered for the Seaboard).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- On Sat, 12/26/09, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] ANOTHER question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Saturday, December 26, 2009, 10:11 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       I have a boxcar, had it for some time, as junk.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Outside braced, GN, brown (boxcar red, to be precise).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> HORRIBLY assembled, fallen apart, the outside bracings are one-piece castings, of which one was gone (hence the "junk" status).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I found the other outside bracing yesterday, cleaned up, re-glued, fixed the paint, looking for the rest of the bits, pretty sure I will find them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Anyway:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It appears to be Silver Streak, by the metal roof ridges that bend over the edges of the roof.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yet, extensive research on HOSeeker shows the only outside-braced GN boxcar was by Ulrich.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The road number is 31055.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Anybody have any better information?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12715
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/26/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sure looks like this one:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190359672287&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dp3907.m38.l1313%26_nkw%3D190359672287%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > Not quite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> On this one, the bracing is two piecs total, one piece per side, with ledges for doorways.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> End steps are cast as part of side bracing casting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Car ends are separate castings.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Wood center sill, with the metal cross braces only on each side of the center sill.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Same at bolsters.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The wood sides actually sit on a lip at the bottom of the braces.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I can't get any photos until Sunday, try then.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I think I have one of those cars, where the outside bracing is all cast as one piece (Four total - one for each quarter of the car either side of the door.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Unfortuantely, mine is pretty bad up - my back kicked out, and I fell over, right into a box of vintage model trains, which went all over the place. Mostly salvagable, but this outside braced car needs LOTS of help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I do think mine is an Ulrich, so if you can provide a picture of the car, I can tell you if it is like mine (Which is lettered for the Seaboard).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > -Steve Neubaum
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > --- On Sat, 12/26/09, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: [vintageHO] ANOTHER question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Date: Saturday, December 26, 2009, 10:11 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >       
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >       
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >       I have a boxcar, had it for some time, as junk.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Outside braced, GN, brown (boxcar red, to be precise).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > HORRIBLY assembled, fallen apart, the outside bracings are one-piece castings, of which one was gone (hence the "junk" status).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I found the other outside bracing yesterday, cleaned up, re-glued, fixed the paint, looking for the rest of the bits, pretty sure I will find them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Anyway:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > It appears to be Silver Streak, by the metal roof ridges that bend over the edges of the roof.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Yet, extensive research on HOSeeker shows the only outside-braced GN boxcar was by Ulrich.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The road number is 31055.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Anybody have any better information?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12716
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave, Your Outside Braced GN Boxcar is NOT a Silver Streak (Silver Streak 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
never made any O/B boxcars).  You have an Ulrich car.  Ray F.W.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
P.S.:  We did spread sheets on Silver Streak, Roundhouse/MDC and Ulrich -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
all found in the files.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12717
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve,  While Ulrich did produce an Outside Braced Seaboard (SAL) Boxcar, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
your 2-piece per side castings indicate it's an MDC/Roundhouse car.  Model 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Die Casting made an SAL O/B boxcar, as well as Ulrich.  If your SAL car is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
numbered 15411, then it is an MDC.  Again, as a reminder, Chuck Higdon and I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
did a spread sheet on this manufacturer, found in the files.  Ray F.W.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12718
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave, Steve, One MAJOR difference between the Ulrich and the MDC O/B cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
is that Ulrich uses a cast (one-piece) framework over actual wood sides, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
whereas MDC (two-piece sides) are cast integral with the bracing (framework) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
being part of cast metal sides.  Ray F.W.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12719
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave,  The car being offered on eBay as item 190359672287, which you have a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
link to, is not a Silver Streak as advertised, but instead an Ulrich car.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The wood sides, as seen through the open doorway on the inside of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
opposite side is only one feature that sets it apart from MDC, besides the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
lettering and number.  Yes, MDC did offer an StL&SW car too (#126878).  This Ulrich 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Frisco O/B Boxcar was the second kit (of three) of their "Cars of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Roaring Twenties" Series (1st kit of this Series was an ART Reefer and the 3rd 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
kit was an Enterprise General Service Gondola).  Ray F.W.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12720
						From: Chris B
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: and ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    OK, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to identify Steve's car correctly, but I did want to sympathize with his accident, and the damage it caused to the trains, if not his back! <g>.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm on the lookout these days for any unpainted diecast vintage freight cars, especially without those without boxes, since all I want them for is runners... 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    This one on ebay is a perfect example of one that would seem to be way too important to Athearn collectors for me to even think about:

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Newly listedHO Athearn rare1950 die cast metal flat car kit vintage

                                                                                                                                                                                                    0 Bids
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Buy It Now
                                                                                                                                                                                                    $9.99
                                                                                                                                                                                                    $14.99
                                                                                                                                                                                                    		Dec-26 13:

                                                                                                                                                                                                    ---------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                    and another question, though not car related...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I did recently win an Authenticast BRIDGE KIT GB-3 HO with box and paperwork, is anyone familiar with these?  I can't tell from the photos if the girder sides are unpainted or not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                    and finally, I did open the box with Athearn RDCs, and I do have metal gear driven units, as well as one plastic with Ernst gearing, and a plastic with rubber band drive, I was confused by my memory of the metal chassis that supports the drive, so I do NOT have a metal Athearn RDC with HI-F drive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.


                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Stephen
 Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 12:04:17 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ANOTHER question

                                                                                                                                                                                                    







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I think I have one of those cars, where the outside bracing is all cast as one piece (Four total - one for each quarter of the car either side of the door.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Unfortuantely, mine is pretty bad up - my back kicked out, and I fell over, right into a box of vintage model trains, which went all over the place. Mostly salvagable, but this outside braced car needs LOTS of help.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I do think mine is an Ulrich, so if you can provide a picture of the car, I can tell you if it is like mine (Which is lettered for the Seaboard).

                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Sat, 12/26/09, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@ mindspring. com> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@ mindspring. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] ANOTHER question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To:
 vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Saturday, December 26, 2009, 10:11 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                    





 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a boxcar, had it for some time, as junk.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Outside braced, GN, brown (boxcar red, to be precise).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
HORRIBLY assembled, fallen apart, the outside bracings are one-piece castings, of which one was gone (hence the "junk" status).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I found the other outside bracing yesterday, cleaned up, re-glued, fixed the paint, looking for the rest of the bits, pretty sure I will find them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Anyway:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
It appears to be Silver Streak, by the metal roof ridges that bend over the edges of the roof.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yet, extensive research on HOSeeker shows the only outside-braced GN boxcar was by Ulrich.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The road number is 31055.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Anybody have any better information?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
     



 



                                                                                                                                                                                                    

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
     





                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12721
						From: Ray Hobin
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck K; Stated:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     >It looks like a match to me, too.  But I think it may still be an open question if it is LMB.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    [snip]
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     >And did any LMB models ever come in a wood box.  I don't know.  Anyone?  Anyone?  The wood box may turn out to be the biggest clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a Big Boy that was made for LMB by Tetsudo Mokei Sha (TMS) that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
bought in Japan in the mid 60's that came in a wood box papered with TMS
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
all over it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I first saw it in the window of the TMS retail shop in Ochanomizu
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
section of Tokyo. I was told it was not for sale.  Eventually, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
obtained via a 3rd party buyer, Hiroshi Mizuno, owner of Micro Cast.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'll admit this anecdote begs the question as the Big Boy was a LMB
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
model but  it certainly was not sold as such.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ray Hobin
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12722
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: and ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris,  As for the Athearn "die cast metal" flat car -- This is a case of the kit box being switched and/or just plain using the wrong kit box for this kit.  Athearn never made a die cast flat car.  All of their flat cars were factory painted and lettered metal sides and ends with scribed wood flooring.  There were a number of manufacturers that produced diecast metal flat cars, including Red Ball and Mantua.  I seem to notice separate end castings in the rather poor photo, and while this may be Devore (another die cast flat car manufacturer), I'd have to dig mine out to verify that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Congrats on winning the Authenticast girder bridge kit -- that's a nice find.  This kit appears in Carmen Webster's 1953 catalog of the Model Railroad Equipment Corporation.  There's no mention of it being facrory painted and the photo of it does not appear to be.  I would have to say it comes unpainted and for you not to expect it being painted.  If it does come painted, that's a plus, but probably not from what I can see.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for verifying your Athearn RDC drives.  Ray F.W,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12723
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a friend who collects older UP brass--I can recall something in a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
wood box --either LMB or MB Austin--will see what he thinks.  The loco in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
question is an early-type Challenger??  packaged in a wooden box?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 8:15 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Brass Engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck K; Stated:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>It looks like a match to me, too.  But I think it may still be an open 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>question if it is LMB.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> [snip]
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>And did any LMB models ever come in a wood box.  I don't know.  Anyone? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>Anyone?  The wood box may turn out to be the biggest clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have a Big Boy that was made for LMB by Tetsudo Mokei Sha (TMS) that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> bought in Japan in the mid 60's that came in a wood box papered with TMS
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> all over it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I first saw it in the window of the TMS retail shop in Ochanomizu
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> section of Tokyo. I was told it was not for sale.  Eventually, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> obtained via a 3rd party buyer, Hiroshi Mizuno, owner of Micro Cast.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'll admit this anecdote begs the question as the Big Boy was a LMB
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> model but  it certainly was not sold as such.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray Hobin
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
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No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.120/2588 - Release Date: 12/26/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12724
						From: Chris B
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: and ANOTHER question about vintage ground throws
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks Ray F.W., I may just go for the flat car then, consider the box as a separate item from the car, one I could pass on.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I do have a stack of what I always thought were Penn Line unpainted die cast flat car bodies, do you know if Penn Line produced  any?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    As for the bridge, thanks, it was a deal at $12.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Actually for me, it's much more attractive unpainted, that's one of the standard elements I'm planning on sticking to for this vintage layout I'm building.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    The whole layout will be set on finished and polished hardwood shelves on three levels wrapping around a family room with carpet and a fireplace.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    My plan is to run only 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    unpainted brass and diecast diesel and electric engines, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    WWII era freight cars, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    and brass and vintage Walthers
 gas-electrics; 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
running on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    unballasted wooden roadbed brass rail tru-scale and Tenshodo track and turnouts 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    with unpainted diecast and diecast groundthrows, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    and similar metal track fittings and details, like this authenticast bridge;
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
past 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    unpainted sheet metal Suydam-type brass, aluminum, and tin sheetmetal buildings.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    It's based on the Washington & Old Dominion Rosslyn Branch in the 40's and 50's, so I will be running a crazy collection of motive power.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Much of it I still have to accumulate or build, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    but I've already got a pretty good start, including a nice assortment of the primary engines in the 40's and 50s; diecast and brass 44-tonners (MEW, Keystone & NJ INTL) and Alco S-2s (Hobbytown/Cary & ALCO). 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I also have a nice pile of Walthers gas electric kits that will become #W&OD #45 and #46and a Suydam Brill that will be turned into W&OD #52.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I stopped working on the roster and switched to the layout about a year ago, thinking I better get it done while I still had permission from the home office to take over the family room; it was only very recently I decided to go for this natural wood unpainted metal theme, the Tenshodo track was the source of that crazy idea, but it's starting to look pretty doable.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    It also means
 I pass on any of the cars or engines I'm looking for if they're already painted, you'd be surprised how much that slows down the pipeline!

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'd be very interested in hearing from anyone who's familiar with the MEW diecast groundthrows, or any similar era metal groundthrows, I've already got a few samples from different makers, but it would be nice to know if any have any particular issues to avoid.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm sure delrin Caboose industries would be smoother and easier in every way, but now that I've gone down this vintage metal path, I find I'm willing to put up with some problems just to keep it that way everywhere!

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.


                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 11:48:26 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] and ANOTHER question

                                                                                                                                                                                                    







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris,  As for the Athearn "die cast metal" flat car -- This is a case of the kit box being switched and/or just plain using the wrong kit box for this kit.  Athearn never made a die cast flat car.  All of their flat cars were factory painted and lettered metal sides and ends with scribed wood flooring.  There were a number of manufacturers that produced diecast metal flat cars, including Red Ball and Mantua.  I seem to notice separate end castings in the rather poor photo, and while this may be Devore (another die cast flat car manufacturer) , I'd have to dig mine out to verify that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Congrats on winning the Authenticast girder bridge kit -- that's a nice find.  This kit appears in Carmen Webster's 1953 catalog of the Model Railroad Equipment Corporation.  There's no mention of it being facrory painted and the photo of it does not appear to be.  I would have to say it comes unpainted and for you not to expect it being painted.  If it does come painted, that's a plus, but probably not from what I can see.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for verifying your Athearn RDC drives.  Ray F.W,                                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
     





                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12725
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: and ANOTHER question about vintage ground throws
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 

 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    HI Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Penn Line did indeed have unpainted die
cast flat cars.  The end steps are a single piece of bent metal strap that
also holds in the coupler.  Kadee No 4s work well here.  Paint the
metal steps, as they will rust over time with out it.  This is the piggy
back and load of lumber flat car.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009
12:20 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] and
ANOTHER question about vintage ground throws
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks Ray F.W., I may just go for
the flat car then, consider the box as a separate item from the car, one I
could pass on.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I do have a stack of what I always thought were Penn Line unpainted die cast
flat car bodies, do you know if Penn Line produced  any?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
As for the bridge, thanks, it was a deal at $12.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Actually for me, it's much more attractive unpainted, that's one of the
standard elements I'm planning on sticking to for this vintage layout I'm
building.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The whole layout will be set on finished and polished hardwood shelves on three
levels wrapping around a family room with carpet and a fireplace.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
My plan is to run only 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
unpainted brass and diecast diesel and electric engines, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
WWII era freight cars, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
and brass and vintage Walthers gas-electrics; 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
running on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
unballasted wooden roadbed brass rail tru-scale and Tenshodo track and turnouts

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
with unpainted diecast and diecast groundthrows, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
and similar metal track fittings and details, like this authenticast bridge;
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
past 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
unpainted sheet metal Suydam-type brass, aluminum, and tin sheetmetal
buildings.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
It's based on the Washington & Old Dominion Rosslyn Branch in the 40's and
50's, so I will be running a crazy collection of motive power.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Much of it I still have to accumulate or build, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
but I've already got a pretty good start, including a nice assortment of the
primary engines in the 40's and 50s; diecast and brass 44-tonners (MEW,
Keystone & NJ INTL) and Alco S-2s (Hobbytown/Cary & ALCO). 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I also have a nice pile of Walthers gas electric kits that will become
#W&OD #45 and #46and a Suydam Brill that will be turned into W&OD #52.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I stopped working on the roster and switched to the layout about a year ago,
thinking I better get it done while I still had permission from the home office
to take over the family room; it was only very recently I decided to go for
this natural wood unpainted metal theme, the Tenshodo track was the source of
that crazy idea, but it's starting to look pretty doable.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
It also means I pass on any of the cars or engines I'm looking for if they're
already painted, you'd be surprised how much that slows down the pipeline!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'd be very interested in hearing from anyone who's familiar with the MEW
diecast groundthrows, or any similar era metal groundthrows, I've already got a
few samples from different makers, but it would be nice to know if any have any
particular issues to avoid.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm sure delrin Caboose industries would be smoother and easier in every way,
but now that I've gone down this vintage metal path, I find I'm willing to put
up with some problems just to keep it that way everywhere!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
"erieberk@wmconnect .com" <erieberk@wmconnect. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009
11:48:26 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] and
ANOTHER question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris,
 As for the Athearn "die cast metal" flat car -- This is a case
of the kit box being switched and/or just plain using the wrong kit box for
this kit.  Athearn never made a die cast flat car.  All of their flat
cars were factory painted and lettered metal sides and ends with scribed wood
flooring.  There were a number of manufacturers that produced diecast metal
flat cars, including Red Ball and Mantua .
 I seem to notice separate end castings in the rather poor photo, and
while this may be Devore (another die cast flat car manufacturer) , I'd have to
dig mine out to verify that. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Congrats on winning the Authenticast girder bridge kit -- that's a nice find.
 This kit appears in Carmen Webster's 1953 catalog of the Model Railroad
Equipment Corporation.  There's no mention of it being facrory painted and
the photo of it does not appear to be.  I would have to say it comes
unpainted and for you not to expect it being painted.  If it does come
painted, that's a plus, but probably not from what I can see. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks for verifying your Athearn RDC drives.  Ray F.W,                                                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    




                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12726
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: OT (on some lists) - Earnhardt HO
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry for the cross posting, but I really need some info ..... Does anyone 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
have a list of Dale Earnhardt HO railroad equipment? I have some pieces from 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hawthorn Village which are Bachmann Spectrum. I got a complete, unwrapped, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
set for Christmas which is from Brookfield Collectors Guild. These are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
unmarked and look like AHM equipment. I have individual pieces that look 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
like the Brookfield set, but without the large box, that also look like AHM 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
and I've got a lot of Revell stuff. I've written to Revell to request a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
catalog to mark off the Earnhardt equipment, but they tell me they don't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
have catalogs and they couldn't tell me what Earnhardt trains they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
produced!?!? I don't know if Athearn or Roundhouse produced any, that's why 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm asking. Please if someone can help me or point me in the right 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
direction, it would be greatly appreciated.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Moderators - I apologize in advance if this isn't permitted, but I have a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
chance to get some equipment and I really need to know quickly.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
yahoo-groups@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
www.prrh.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
www.marx-trains.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12727
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Okay, now I have this data:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
(Oh, and until one has some idea of who made the item, an .xls file spreadsheet doesn't allow you to zero in on the item....but, once you know for sure "Ulrich", there it is!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
GN 31055 outside braced
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
3283H Ulrich
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
OB-10
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
So, why do we have the 3283 number in some references and the OB-10 in others?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Just asking.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I am thinking the 3283H is a dealer numbering system.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave, Your Outside Braced GN Boxcar is NOT a Silver Streak (Silver Streak 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> never made any O/B boxcars).  You have an Ulrich car.  Ray F.W.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> P.S.:  We did spread sheets on Silver Streak, Roundhouse/MDC and Ulrich -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> all found in the files.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12728
						From: Michael
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Cleaning Wheels?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    What does everyone recommend for cleaning the wheels of my engines?  They have all been in storage for over 20 years.  Any suggestions?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Michael Allman
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12729
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 

 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    We could combine all of the files into a
composite file with all listed.  Then a search could be done of that file.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I do not know about the 3283H number
though.  Where does it appear to you?
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
 vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of trainsnwrcs
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009
1:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ANOTHER question
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Okay, now I have this data:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
(Oh, and until one has some idea of who made the item, an .xls file spreadsheet
doesn't allow you to zero in on the item....but, once you know for sure
"Ulrich", there it is!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
GN 31055 outside braced
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
3283H Ulrich
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
OB-10
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
So, why do we have the 3283 number in some references and the OB-10 in others?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Just asking.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I am thinking the 3283H is a dealer numbering system.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave, Your Outside Braced GN Boxcar is NOT a Silver Streak (Silver Streak 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> never made any O/B boxcars). You have an Ulrich car. Ray F.W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> P.S.: We did spread sheets on Silver Streak, Roundhouse/MDC and Ulrich -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> all found in the files.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                     

 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12730
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    In one of the pages on HOSeeker, where it lists all sorts of manufacturers of rolling stock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Like, "Outside Braced Boxcars", lists all the manufacturers and part numbers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> We could combine all of the files into a composite file with all listed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Then a search could be done of that file.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I do not know about the 3283H number though.  Where does it appear to you?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of trainsnwrcs
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 1:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ANOTHER question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Okay, now I have this data:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (Oh, and until one has some idea of who made the item, an .xls file
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> spreadsheet doesn't allow you to zero in on the item....but, once you know
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> for sure "Ulrich", there it is!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN 31055 outside braced
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 3283H Ulrich
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> OB-10
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> So, why do we have the 3283 number in some references and the OB-10 in
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> others?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Just asking.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I am thinking the 3283H is a dealer numbering system.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dave, Your Outside Braced GN Boxcar is NOT a Silver Streak (Silver Streak 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > never made any O/B boxcars). You have an Ulrich car. Ray F.W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > P.S.: We did spread sheets on Silver Streak, Roundhouse/MDC and Ulrich -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > all found in the files.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12731
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Clarification, please
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Okay, under "Ulrich" on HOSeeker, I have this:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://hoseeker.net/Ulrich/ulrichoutsidebracedboxcarpg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
That is NOT this car.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
There are no "eaves" or places for them.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The center sill is nothing like what is shown, the stirrup steps are shown as wire to be soldered on, yet mine are cast integral with the bracing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have holes cast into the sides for door guides, yet the photos do not show guides.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The cars ends are totally different, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Were there variations?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12732
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://hoseeker.net/modelrrequipment/modelrrequipment1953pg61.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I do not know about the 3283H number though.  Where does it appear to you?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Higdon - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12733
						From: jay matz
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Wheels?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Michael
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I use Lacquer Thinner on very dirty wheels or Rubbing Alcohol if they arn't to bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Put the loco in a cradel and run it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jay

                                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Sun, 12/27/09, Michael <mgallman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Michael <mgallman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Cleaning Wheels?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Sunday, December 27, 2009, 2:00 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    What does everyone recommend for cleaning the wheels of my engines? They have all been in storage for over 20 years. Any suggestions?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Michael Allman


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12734
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: and ANOTHER question about vintage ground throws
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Solid die-cast flat cars could also be Mantua.  The Mantua's have the steps 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
cast as part of the body casting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 12:47 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] and ANOTHER question about vintage ground throws
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> HI Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Penn Line did indeed have unpainted die cast flat cars.  The end steps are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> single piece of bent metal strap that also holds in the coupler.  Kadee No
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 4s work well here.  Paint the metal steps, as they will rust over time 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> with
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> out it.  This is the piggy back and load of lumber flat car.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  _____
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 12:20 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] and ANOTHER question about vintage ground throws
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks Ray F.W., I may just go for the flat car then, consider the box as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> separate item from the car, one I could pass on.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I do have a stack of what I always thought were Penn Line unpainted die 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> cast
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> flat car bodies, do you know if Penn Line produced  any?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> As for the bridge, thanks, it was a deal at $12.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Actually for me, it's much more attractive unpainted, that's one of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> standard elements I'm planning on sticking to for this vintage layout I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> building.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The whole layout will be set on finished and polished hardwood shelves on
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> three levels wrapping around a family room with carpet and a fireplace.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> My plan is to run only
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> unpainted brass and diecast diesel and electric engines,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> WWII era freight cars,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and brass and vintage Walthers gas-electrics;
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> running on
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> unballasted wooden roadbed brass rail tru-scale and Tenshodo track and
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> turnouts
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> with unpainted diecast and diecast groundthrows,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and similar metal track fittings and details, like this authenticast 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> bridge;
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> past
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> unpainted sheet metal Suydam-type brass, aluminum, and tin sheetmetal
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> buildings.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It's based on the Washington & Old Dominion Rosslyn Branch in the 40's and
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 50's, so I will be running a crazy collection of motive power.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Much of it I still have to accumulate or build,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> but I've already got a pretty good start, including a nice assortment of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> primary engines in the 40's and 50s; diecast and brass 44-tonners (MEW,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Keystone & NJ INTL) and Alco S-2s (Hobbytown/Cary & ALCO).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I also have a nice pile of Walthers gas electric kits that will become 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> #W&OD
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> #45 and #46and a Suydam Brill that will be turned into W&OD #52.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I stopped working on the roster and switched to the layout about a year 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ago,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> thinking I better get it done while I still had permission from the home
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> office to take over the family room; it was only very recently I decided 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> go for this natural wood unpainted metal theme, the Tenshodo track was the
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> source of that crazy idea, but it's starting to look pretty doable.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It also means I pass on any of the cars or engines I'm looking for if
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> they're already painted, you'd be surprised how much that slows down the
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> pipeline!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'd be very interested in hearing from anyone who's familiar with the MEW
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> diecast groundthrows, or any similar era metal groundthrows, I've already
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> got a few samples from different makers, but it would be nice to know if 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> any
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have any particular issues to avoid.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm sure delrin Caboose industries would be smoother and easier in every
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> way, but now that I've gone down this vintage metal path, I find I'm 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> willing
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to put up with some problems just to keep it that way everywhere!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  _____
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 11:48:26 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] and ANOTHER question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chris,  As for the Athearn "die cast metal" flat car -- This is a case of
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the kit box being switched and/or just plain using the wrong kit box for
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> this kit.  Athearn never made a die cast flat car.  All of their flat cars
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> were factory painted and lettered metal sides and ends with scribed wood
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> flooring.  There were a number of manufacturers that produced diecast 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> metal
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> flat cars, including Red Ball and Mantua.  I seem to notice separate end
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> castings in the rather poor photo, and while this may be Devore (another 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> die
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> cast flat car manufacturer) , I'd have to dig mine out to verify that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Congrats on winning the Authenticast girder bridge kit -- that's a nice
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> find.  This kit appears in Carmen Webster's 1953 catalog of the Model
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Railroad Equipment Corporation.  There's no mention of it being facrory
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> painted and the photo of it does not appear to be.  I would have to say it
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> comes unpainted and for you not to expect it being painted.  If it does 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> come
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> painted, that's a plus, but probably not from what I can see.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks for verifying your Athearn RDC drives.  Ray F.W,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12735
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    And, yet, looking closer at the photo of the Ulrich Outside-Braced Boxcar on this page, it looks just like the klunker I am working on, nothing at all like the instruction sheet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 Here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://hoseeker.net/modelrrequipment/modelrrequipment1953pg61.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12736
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    As far as the car on eBay, we'll find out if I win it (I did put in a bid).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ANOTHER question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In one of the pages on HOSeeker, where it lists all sorts of manufacturers 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of rolling stock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Like, "Outside Braced Boxcars", lists all the manufacturers and part 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> numbers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> We could combine all of the files into a composite file with all listed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Then a search could be done of that file.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I do not know about the 3283H number though.  Where does it appear to 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> you?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>   _____
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Of trainsnwrcs
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 1:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ANOTHER question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Okay, now I have this data:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> (Oh, and until one has some idea of who made the item, an .xls file
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> spreadsheet doesn't allow you to zero in on the item....but, once you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> know
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> for sure "Ulrich", there it is!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> GN 31055 outside braced
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 3283H Ulrich
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> OB-10
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> So, why do we have the 3283 number in some references and the OB-10 in
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> others?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Just asking.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I am thinking the 3283H is a dealer numbering system.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Dave, Your Outside Braced GN Boxcar is NOT a Silver Streak (Silver 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Streak
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > never made any O/B boxcars). You have an Ulrich car. Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > P.S.: We did spread sheets on Silver Streak, Roundhouse/MDC and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Ulrich -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > all found in the files.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12737
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Wheels?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Be very careful of lacquer thinner.  It will attack plastic wheels, gears, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
sideframes, bushings and insulation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "jay matz" <dlw455@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 3:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Cleaning Wheels?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Michael
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I use Lacquer Thinner on very dirty wheels or Rubbing Alcohol if they arn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
to bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Put the loco in a cradel and run it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Jay
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- On Sun, 12/27/09, Michael <mgallman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: Michael <mgallman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Cleaning Wheels?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Date: Sunday, December 27, 2009, 2:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
What does everyone recommend for cleaning the wheels of my engines? They 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
have all been in storage for over 20 years. Any suggestions?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Michael Allman 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12738
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Old Brass Engine
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    My friend suggests that if it is an early-style Challenger it could be by 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Olympia--he has two he picked up in the mid-70's.  They had wood boxes.   I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
haven't been able to see a picture of the loco to add my ideas.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 8:51 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Old Brass Engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>I have a friend who collects older UP brass--I can recall something in a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> wood box --either LMB or MB Austin--will see what he thinks.  The loco in
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> question is an early-type Challenger??  packaged in a wooden box?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "Ray Hobin" <tcol@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 8:15 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Old Brass Engine
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Chuck K; Stated:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>It looks like a match to me, too.  But I think it may still be an open
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>question if it is LMB.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> [snip]
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>And did any LMB models ever come in a wood box.  I don't know.  Anyone?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>Anyone?  The wood box may turn out to be the biggest clue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I have a Big Boy that was made for LMB by Tetsudo Mokei Sha (TMS) that I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> bought in Japan in the mid 60's that came in a wood box papered with TMS
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> all over it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I first saw it in the window of the TMS retail shop in Ochanomizu
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> section of Tokyo. I was told it was not for sale.  Eventually, I
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> obtained via a 3rd party buyer, Hiroshi Mizuno, owner of Micro Cast.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I'll admit this anecdote begs the question as the Big Boy was a LMB
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> model but  it certainly was not sold as such.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Ray Hobin
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> NMRA Life # 17XX; TCA # HR-78-XXXXX; ARHS # 2XXX
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Durham, NC [Where tobacco was king; now The City of Medicine]
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.120/2588 - Release Date: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 12/26/09
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 19:02:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.120/2588 - Release Date: 12/26/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
19:02:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12739
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Wheels?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I like the Kadee driver cleaner--sometimes with a bit of Goo Gone.  For 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
non-powered wheels a wire brush in the Dremel does a good job.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 3:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Cleaning Wheels?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Be very careful of lacquer thinner.  It will attack plastic wheels, gears,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> sideframes, bushings and insulation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "jay matz" <dlw455@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 3:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Cleaning Wheels?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Michael
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I use Lacquer Thinner on very dirty wheels or Rubbing Alcohol if they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> arn't
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Put the loco in a cradel and run it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jay
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- On Sun, 12/27/09, Michael <mgallman@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: Michael <mgallman@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Cleaning Wheels?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Sunday, December 27, 2009, 2:00 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> What does everyone recommend for cleaning the wheels of my engines? They
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have all been in storage for over 20 years. Any suggestions?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Michael Allman
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.121/2589 - Release Date: 12/27/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12740
						From: Chuck Higdon
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


 
 





 


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the link.  I was not aware of
this catalog of model equipment.  But I do think it is the publishers number
and not the model makers.  It may be a catalog just like Walther’s and it
is their part number.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    From:
vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of trainsnwrcs
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009
4:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ANOTHER
question
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     


                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                     




                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://hoseeker. net/modelrrequip ment/modelrrequi pment1953pg61. jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I do not know about the 3283H number though. Where does it appear to you?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Higdon - 
                                                                                                                                                                                                     

 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12741
						From: Chris B
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: uploaded combined binder of car list spreadsheets in pdf format
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    fwiw, it only took about 45 minutes, and I hope it's ok, but I did just upload a combined pdf file that includes each of the current spreadsheet files.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I only had to download each of the spreadsheet files, convert each one of them to a pdf file, and then combine all of those separate pdf files into one binder.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I made sure each one had its file name at the top of its pages so that whatever page you were on, you would know what car numbers you were looking at.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    The biggest advantage of pdf files over excel for searching for information is that almost everyone has the free acrobat reader, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    so if you download the new binder file, and open the acrobat search panel to search for a particular item, 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    all you have to do is enter the car#, or mfgr name, or car
 type, or whatever...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    and when you click on search, then every entry of that item appears under the search panel, along with  the context.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    then if you click on the term you think might be it, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    it automatically takes you to that page of the binder.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    The binder is 144 pages long, with all the spradsheets combined, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    but this might make it easier or quicker to look up information when you don't know exactly which maker made a car with a specific car number.
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I did attach a shorty extract of the first 30 or so pages, so folks could see what it looked like and try out the search feature.  The full binder is in the group files section.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 3:37:27 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ANOTHER question

                                                                                                                                                                                                    







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    In one of the pages on HOSeeker, where it lists all sorts of manufacturers of rolling stock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Like, "Outside Braced Boxcars", lists all the manufacturers and part numbers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> We could combine all of the files into a composite file with all listed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Then a search could be done of that file.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I do not know about the 3283H number though.  Where does it appear to you?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   _____  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Of trainsnwrcs
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 1:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ANOTHER question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Okay, now I have this data:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (Oh, and until one has some idea of who made the item, an .xls file
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> spreadsheet doesn't allow you to zero in on the item....but, once you know
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> for sure "Ulrich", there it is!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN 31055 outside braced
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 3283H Ulrich
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> OB-10
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> So, why do we have the 3283 number in some references and the OB-10 in
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> others?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Just asking.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I am thinking the 3283H is a dealer numbering system.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dave, Your Outside Braced GN Boxcar is NOT a Silver Streak (Silver Streak 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > never made any O/B boxcars). You have an Ulrich car. Ray F.W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > P.S.: We did spread sheets on Silver Streak, Roundhouse/MDC and Ulrich -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > all found in the files.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
     





                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12742
						From: My-Yahoo-Groups
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: and ANOTHER question about vintage ground throws
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a number of die cast flat cars that are made by Revell ... or at 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
least they have Revell on the bottom of the car. From my understanding, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Revell hasn't made HO since the '60's, but these are nice new cars that have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
nice Revell boxes from this century. So I don't know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Steve W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
www.prrh.org
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
www.marx-trains.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 5:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] and ANOTHER question about vintage ground throws
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Solid die-cast flat cars could also be Mantua.  The Mantua's have the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> steps
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> cast as part of the body casting.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 12:47 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] and ANOTHER question about vintage ground throws
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> HI Chris,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Penn Line did indeed have unpainted die cast flat cars.  The end steps 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> are
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> single piece of bent metal strap that also holds in the coupler.  Kadee 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> No
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 4s work well here.  Paint the metal steps, as they will rust over time
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> with
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> out it.  This is the piggy back and load of lumber flat car.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Take care,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>  _____
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Of Chris B
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 12:20 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] and ANOTHER question about vintage ground throws
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Thanks Ray F.W., I may just go for the flat car then, consider the box as
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> a
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> separate item from the car, one I could pass on.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I do have a stack of what I always thought were Penn Line unpainted die
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> cast
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> flat car bodies, do you know if Penn Line produced  any?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> As for the bridge, thanks, it was a deal at $12.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Actually for me, it's much more attractive unpainted, that's one of the
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> standard elements I'm planning on sticking to for this vintage layout I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> building.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> The whole layout will be set on finished and polished hardwood shelves on
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> three levels wrapping around a family room with carpet and a fireplace.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> My plan is to run only
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> unpainted brass and diecast diesel and electric engines,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> WWII era freight cars,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> and brass and vintage Walthers gas-electrics;
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> running on
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> unballasted wooden roadbed brass rail tru-scale and Tenshodo track and
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> turnouts
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> with unpainted diecast and diecast groundthrows,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> and similar metal track fittings and details, like this authenticast
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> bridge;
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> past
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> unpainted sheet metal Suydam-type brass, aluminum, and tin sheetmetal
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> buildings.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> It's based on the Washington & Old Dominion Rosslyn Branch in the 40's 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> and
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 50's, so I will be running a crazy collection of motive power.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Much of it I still have to accumulate or build,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> but I've already got a pretty good start, including a nice assortment of
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> primary engines in the 40's and 50s; diecast and brass 44-tonners (MEW,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Keystone & NJ INTL) and Alco S-2s (Hobbytown/Cary & ALCO).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I also have a nice pile of Walthers gas electric kits that will become
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> #W&OD
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> #45 and #46and a Suydam Brill that will be turned into W&OD #52.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I stopped working on the roster and switched to the layout about a year
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ago,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> thinking I better get it done while I still had permission from the home
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> office to take over the family room; it was only very recently I decided
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> to
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> go for this natural wood unpainted metal theme, the Tenshodo track was 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> source of that crazy idea, but it's starting to look pretty doable.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> It also means I pass on any of the cars or engines I'm looking for if
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> they're already painted, you'd be surprised how much that slows down the
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> pipeline!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I'd be very interested in hearing from anyone who's familiar with the MEW
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> diecast groundthrows, or any similar era metal groundthrows, I've already
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> got a few samples from different makers, but it would be nice to know if
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> any
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> have any particular issues to avoid.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I'm sure delrin Caboose industries would be smoother and easier in every
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> way, but now that I've gone down this vintage metal path, I find I'm
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> willing
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> to put up with some problems just to keep it that way everywhere!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>  _____
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 11:48:26 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] and ANOTHER question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Chris,  As for the Athearn "die cast metal" flat car -- This is a case of
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the kit box being switched and/or just plain using the wrong kit box for
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> this kit.  Athearn never made a die cast flat car.  All of their flat 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> cars
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> were factory painted and lettered metal sides and ends with scribed wood
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> flooring.  There were a number of manufacturers that produced diecast
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> metal
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> flat cars, including Red Ball and Mantua.  I seem to notice separate end
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> castings in the rather poor photo, and while this may be Devore (another
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> die
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> cast flat car manufacturer) , I'd have to dig mine out to verify that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Congrats on winning the Authenticast girder bridge kit -- that's a nice
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> find.  This kit appears in Carmen Webster's 1953 catalog of the Model
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Railroad Equipment Corporation.  There's no mention of it being facrory
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> painted and the photo of it does not appear to be.  I would have to say 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> it
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> comes unpainted and for you not to expect it being painted.  If it does
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> come
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> painted, that's a plus, but probably not from what I can see.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Thanks for verifying your Athearn RDC drives.  Ray F.W,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12743
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: uploaded combined binder of car list spreadsheets in pdf format
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Looks good to me.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I use OpenOffice for my Word type documents, .xls, .pps, etc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I don't deal with Billy Gates on that part any more.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Looks fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Still scratching my head on a couple of these cars.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I put the trucks back on the outside-braced car....AFTER I put my standard Mantua couplers on it!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > Dave, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> fwiw, it only took about 45 minutes, and I hope it's ok, but I did just upload a combined pdf file that includes each of the current spreadsheet files.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I only had to download each of the spreadsheet files, convert each one of them to a pdf file, and then combine all of those separate pdf files into one binder.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I made sure each one had its file name at the top of its pages so that whatever page you were on, you would know what car numbers you were looking at.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The biggest advantage of pdf files over excel for searching for information is that almost everyone has the free acrobat reader, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> so if you download the new binder file, and open the acrobat search panel to search for a particular item, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> all you have to do is enter the car#, or mfgr name, or car type, or whatever...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and when you click on search, then every entry of that item appears under the search panel, along with  the context.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> then if you click on the term you think might be it, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> it automatically takes you to that page of the binder.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The binder is 144 pages long, with all the spradsheets combined, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> but this might make it easier or quicker to look up information when you don't know exactly which maker made a car with a specific car number.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I did attach a shorty extract of the first 30 or so pages, so folks could see what it looked like and try out the search feature.  The full binder is in the group files section.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Chris B.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 3:37:27 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ANOTHER question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In one of the pages on HOSeeker, where it lists all sorts of manufacturers of rolling stock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Like, "Outside Braced Boxcars", lists all the manufacturers and part numbers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > We could combine all of the files into a composite file with all listed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Then a search could be done of that file.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I do not know about the 3283H number though.  Where does it appear to you?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >   _____ 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Of trainsnwrcs
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 1:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ANOTHER question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Okay, now I have this data:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > (Oh, and until one has some idea of who made the item, an .xls file
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > spreadsheet doesn't allow you to zero in on the item....but, once you know
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > for sure "Ulrich", there it is!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > GN 31055 outside braced
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 3283H Ulrich
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > OB-10
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > So, why do we have the 3283 number in some references and the OB-10 in
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > others?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Just asking.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I am thinking the 3283H is a dealer numbering system.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > Dave, Your Outside Braced GN Boxcar is NOT a Silver Streak (Silver Streak 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > never made any O/B boxcars). You have an Ulrich car. Ray F.W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > P.S.: We did spread sheets on Silver Streak, Roundhouse/MDC and Ulrich -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > > all found in the files.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12744
						From: Fred Stevens K2FRD
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Wheels?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    My preference for cleaning my locomotive drive wheels (16 or so steam and diesel locos), especially those wheels (including tender wheels) which make electrical contact is also a Dremel wire brush, in particular Dremel #530 stainless steel brush. I have an unusual HO layout in that it's located outside (albeit double rain tarp covered, sun tarps on the "walls") but still exposed to the SW Arizona desert air pollution (nitric and sulfuric acids, dust, and various other pollutants which make for beautiful sunsets but is hell on tracks and wheels). While over the years I tried a variety of wheel cleaning methods including chemicals and cradles, they just didn't work as well as the Dremel brushes; the standard wheel and track cleaners are just not intended for outdoor layouts. Dremel makes several brushes and buffing wheels (the #512E also works well but the buffs quickly wear out) but the #530 S/S seems to work best. I brush the wheels as they are exposed turning the engine upside down, put the engine on the track, move it ahead ever so slightly (say, 1/4 turn), brush the next exposed dirty wheel section/quadrant, then move it ahead again. Repeat four or so times until wheels are bright all around once again. The wire brushes are gentle, not abrasive so there is no wear on the contact wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The frequency with which I have to clean my wheels depends upon the air pollution index, frequency of desert storms (dust/sand, occasional rain, wind velocity), and frequency of use of my trains (the better the weather, the more I run my trains, thus the greater the interval between cleaning sessions). I also head end a Walthers track cleaning car #931-752 (two actually, one each for two active tracks), slightly bashed for my layout period which keeps the track clean with a slightly abrasive stone which also needs cleaning from time to time. There is also a correlation between frequency of cleaning drive wheels and the model manufacturer, but that's for a different thread.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
FWIW, I model the New York Ontario & Western, period 1860/70s up to 1950 with a concentration in the late 19th and early 20th century. So lots of steam which requires higher wheel maintenance than diesel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Fulltime RVer with fixed winter RV site in the Sonoran desert near Harquahala Mtn, LaPaz Co, AZ
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     >At 8:21 PM -0700 27/12/09, Fred Stevens K2FRD wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>5d. Re: Cleaning Wheels?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>    Posted by: "Glenn476" glenn476@... glennk28
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>    Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:46 pm ((PST))
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>I like the Kadee driver cleaner--sometimes with a bit of Goo Gone.  For
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>non-powered wheels a wire brush in the Dremel does a good job.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>----- Original Message -----
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 3:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Cleaning Wheels?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Be very careful of lacquer thinner.  It will attack plastic wheels, gears,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> sideframes, bushings and insulation.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > don.dellmann@... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12745
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    BTW I'll let you know what the eBay car is when it arrives. :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 4:56 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: ANOTHER question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> As far as the car on eBay, we'll find out if I win it (I did put in a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> bid).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:37 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ANOTHER question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> In one of the pages on HOSeeker, where it lists all sorts of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> manufacturers
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> of rolling stock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Like, "Outside Braced Boxcars", lists all the manufacturers and part
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> numbers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> We could combine all of the files into a composite file with all listed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Then a search could be done of that file.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> I do not know about the 3283H number though.  Where does it appear to
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> you?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>   _____
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Behalf
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Of trainsnwrcs
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 1:48 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ANOTHER question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Okay, now I have this data:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> (Oh, and until one has some idea of who made the item, an .xls file
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> spreadsheet doesn't allow you to zero in on the item....but, once you
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> know
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> for sure "Ulrich", there it is!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> GN 31055 outside braced
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> 3283H Ulrich
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> OB-10
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> So, why do we have the 3283 number in some references and the OB-10 in
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> others?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Just asking.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> I am thinking the 3283H is a dealer numbering system.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> > Dave, Your Outside Braced GN Boxcar is NOT a Silver Streak (Silver
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> > Streak
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> > never made any O/B boxcars). You have an Ulrich car. Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> > P.S.: We did spread sheets on Silver Streak, Roundhouse/MDC and
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> > Ulrich -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> > all found in the files.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12746
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave, I don't know what instruction sheet you're referring to (unless I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
missed something here).   Your car SHOULD look just like the photo of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ulrich Outside Braced Box Car from your H0 Seeker's link.  BTW -- you will notice 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
in the upper left of that page -- a logo of the Model Railroad Equipment 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Corporation.  This H0 Seeker page was take from the catalog of this company; 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
the "3277" number you had included in your last email that Chuck question you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
about is THEIR catalog number for this kit, and is NOT Ulrich's number.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ray F.W.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12747
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave,  To Clarify -- The "3277H" number I stated in my last reply -- found 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
under the photo of the Ulrich Outside Braced Box Car on H0 Seeker's Model 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Railroad Equipment Corporation's catalog page is designated for the specific 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
kit in the photo -- the Boston & Maine box car.  Model Railroad Equipment 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Corp's catalog number for your Ulrich GN O/B box car is # 3283H.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ray F.W. </HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12748
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/27/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Look here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://hoseeker.net/Ulrich/ulrichoutsidebracedboxcarpg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
This shows an Ulroch outside-braced boxcar instruction sheet, right?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
It shows "awnings" and "door guides" that are nothing like what is on this car.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The upper guide they show has a channel for the door, drops in over the top of the side.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mine has factory holes, tapered, bigger on the inside, so cast that way, for press-in guides, top and bottom.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Now, as far as air lines and brake rigging, on an Ulrich?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The center sill is totally different (photos referenced are right), as they are what, 3/16" square wood?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Not that cast deep sill with slots for brake rigging.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The instructions show built-up car ends, yet they are one-piece castings.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
You look, tell me what I'm missing!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Very strange.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > Dave, I don't know what instruction sheet you're referring to (unless I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> missed something here).   Your car SHOULD look just like the photo of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ulrich Outside Braced Box Car from your H0 Seeker's link.  BTW -- you will notice 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in the upper left of that page -- a logo of the Model Railroad Equipment 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Corporation.  This H0 Seeker page was take from the catalog of this company; 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the "3277" number you had included in your last email that Chuck question you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> about is THEIR catalog number for this kit, and is NOT Ulrich's number.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ray F.W.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12749
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave,  Many thanks for including this link to what I gather is the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
instruction sheet that came with your kit (?) -- of which there was no previous 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
mention of this paper or its origin -- and I'm assuming this came with your kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
(correct me if I'm wrong).  I find this instruction sheet EXTREMELY 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
interesting, as without the Ulrich name on top I would think that it would have come 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
with a Main Line kit.  I'm fascinated primarily with the construction of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
the O/B car side bracing, which is the first time I've ever seen this method 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
in Ulrich -- particularly, the part of the instruction directing the modeler 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
to: "Cut sides apart and assemble "Z" sections and .040 sq. pieces per 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
drawing over PRINTED LINES on sides.  These instructions are almost exactly what 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Main Line uses, as their O/B box cars have printed lines on their sides for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
the modeler to assemble the O/B bracing on top of.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Likewise, the "11423 Vanowen St. -- Unit #28, North Hollywood, Calif" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
address is completely new to me, as well as to Dave Spanagel.  This address has 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
to be C.J. Ulrich's very first address when first starting out as an H0 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
manufacturer, and one that I was not aware of.  This would explain the rather 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
"different" method of assemby, as he obviously hadn't yet had the bracings 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
included as one complete die-casting, but instead was using wood strips.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave Spanagel (author of "Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains,"  and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
editor/publisher of the HO SC&H SIG " The Reporting Mark" bulletins), stated in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Volume 9 Number 2 (April 1991) issue of "The Reporting Mark" that "C.J. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ulrich started Ulrich Model Kits in 1947."  -- as seen by his first ad in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
June 1947 "Model Railroader" magazine, page 481.  He states, "Their initial 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
ads listed their address as 7906 Naylor Ave., Los Angeles, 45 Calif."  He 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
goes on to state "They featured: 'Beautiful Die-cast Sides, Stamped Brass End . 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
. . ", etc.  This would indicate the Ulrich had these die-cast side 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
bracings as early as 1947.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I just now dug out two Ulrich OB-10 GN Outside Braced Box Car kits from my 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
collection.  The first one has the instruction sheet using this Naylor Ave, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Los Angeles, CA address.  The second one uses an instruction sheet having 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
the later address as "4233 Babcock, No. Hollywood, Cal."  BOTH of these Ulrich 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
GN kits have one-piece die-castings for the Outside Bracings for these 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
cars.  One of these is obviously the kit you have -- most probably manufactured 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
at their Los Angeles address, but somehow having the earlier instruction 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
sheet included.  Perhaps a pic of your box might indicate its manufacturing 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
era.  A yellow box with an illustration of a departed freight train with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
caboose as the most prominent feature is the first kit box I have of Ulrich.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I'm now curious as to whether C.J. Ulrich may have even advertised earlier 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
than what Dave Spanagel found, so will be going through my back issues of MR 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
and RMC, but if anyone can find this, I'd appreciate them posting as such.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
As you'll be needing an Ulrich instruction sheet for you kit, I'd be glad 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
to mail you a copy of both sheets I have.  The sheets are both different, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
yet similar as they build the SAME car.  If you'd like these sheets, just 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
send me your mailing address (I can't email them).  Ray F.W.      </HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12750
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave, In case you're still wondering about the instruction sheet included 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
with your GN kit, what I was trying to indicate in my previous post is that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Ulrich must have started produced kits (without these one-piece die-casting 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
braces) even earlier than the 1947 date that he first started manufacturing 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
your kit, and that somehow this (wrong) earlier sheet was included with your 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
car, but I don't know if I made that completely clear.  Ray F.W.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12751
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question very early Ulrich
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ray F.W. and Dave;
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
This certainly caught my attention, too, after first trying to mentally pigeonhole the model described into familiar classifications.  In my much more limited experience, that older address does not seem to be familiar, either.  Will check what references I have later tonight. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave,  Many thanks for including this link to what I gather is the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> instruction sheet that came with your kit (?) -- of which there was no previous 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> mention of this paper or its origin -- and I'm assuming this came with your kit 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (correct me if I'm wrong).  I find this instruction sheet EXTREMELY 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> interesting, as without the Ulrich name on top I would think that it would have come 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> with a Main Line kit.  I'm fascinated primarily with the construction of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the O/B car side bracing, which is the first time I've ever seen this method 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in Ulrich -- particularly, the part of the instruction directing the modeler 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to: "Cut sides apart and assemble "Z" sections and .040 sq. pieces per 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> drawing over PRINTED LINES on sides.  These instructions are almost exactly what 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Main Line uses, as their O/B box cars have printed lines on their sides for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the modeler to assemble the O/B bracing on top of.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Likewise, the "11423 Vanowen St. -- Unit #28, North Hollywood, Calif" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> address is completely new to me, as well as to Dave Spanagel.  This address has 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to be C.J. Ulrich's very first address when first starting out as an H0 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> manufacturer, and one that I was not aware of.  This would explain the rather 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "different" method of assemby, as he obviously hadn't yet had the bracings 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> included as one complete die-casting, but instead was using wood strips.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave Spanagel (author of "Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains,"  and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> editor/publisher of the HO SC&H SIG " The Reporting Mark" bulletins), stated in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Volume 9 Number 2 (April 1991) issue of "The Reporting Mark" that "C.J. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ulrich started Ulrich Model Kits in 1947."  -- as seen by his first ad in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> June 1947 "Model Railroader" magazine, page 481.  He states, "Their initial 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ads listed their address as 7906 Naylor Ave., Los Angeles, 45 Calif."  He 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> goes on to state "They featured: 'Beautiful Die-cast Sides, Stamped Brass End . 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> . . ", etc.  This would indicate the Ulrich had these die-cast side 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> bracings as early as 1947.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I just now dug out two Ulrich OB-10 GN Outside Braced Box Car kits from my 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> collection.  The first one has the instruction sheet using this Naylor Ave, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Los Angeles, CA address.  The second one uses an instruction sheet having 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the later address as "4233 Babcock, No. Hollywood, Cal."  BOTH of these Ulrich 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> GN kits have one-piece die-castings for the Outside Bracings for these 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> cars.  One of these is obviously the kit you have -- most probably manufactured 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> at their Los Angeles address, but somehow having the earlier instruction 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> sheet included.  Perhaps a pic of your box might indicate its manufacturing 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> era.  A yellow box with an illustration of a departed freight train with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> caboose as the most prominent feature is the first kit box I have of Ulrich.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm now curious as to whether C.J. Ulrich may have even advertised earlier 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> than what Dave Spanagel found, so will be going through my back issues of MR 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and RMC, but if anyone can find this, I'd appreciate them posting as such.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> As you'll be needing an Ulrich instruction sheet for you kit, I'd be glad 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to mail you a copy of both sheets I have.  The sheets are both different, but 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> yet similar as they build the SAME car.  If you'd like these sheets, just 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> send me your mailing address (I can't email them).  Ray F.W.      </HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12752
						From: Nelson B
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Wheels?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm surprised you've had success with steel brushes, Fred, because I've had steel Dremel brushes score nickel silver wheels. To be safe, I only use the brass brushes on my wheels now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I don't think I've ever heard of an outdoor HO layout! That must be tough on the track and equipment, even in the southwest.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> My preference for cleaning my locomotive drive wheels (16 or so steam and diesel locos), especially those wheels (including tender wheels) which make electrical contact is also a Dremel wire brush, in particular Dremel #530 stainless steel brush. I have an unusual HO layout in that it's located outside (albeit double rain tarp covered, sun tarps on the "walls") but still exposed to the SW Arizona desert air pollution (nitric and sulfuric acids, dust, and various other pollutants which make for beautiful sunsets but is hell on tracks and wheels). While over the years I tried a variety of wheel cleaning methods including chemicals and cradles, they just didn't work as well as the Dremel brushes; the standard wheel and track cleaners are just not intended for outdoor layouts. Dremel makes several brushes and buffing wheels (the #512E also works well but the buffs quickly wear out) but the #530 S/S seems to work best. I brush the wheels as they are exposed turning the engine upside down, put the engine on the track, move it ahead ever so slightly (say, 1/4 turn), brush the next exposed dirty wheel section/quadrant, then move it ahead again. Repeat four or so times until wheels are bright all around once again. The wire brushes are gentle, not abrasive so there is no wear on the contact wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The frequency with which I have to clean my wheels depends upon the air pollution index, frequency of desert storms (dust/sand, occasional rain, wind velocity), and frequency of use of my trains (the better the weather, the more I run my trains, thus the greater the interval between cleaning sessions). I also head end a Walthers track cleaning car #931-752 (two actually, one each for two active tracks), slightly bashed for my layout period which keeps the track clean with a slightly abrasive stone which also needs cleaning from time to time. There is also a correlation between frequency of cleaning drive wheels and the model manufacturer, but that's for a different thread.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> FWIW, I model the New York Ontario & Western, period 1860/70s up to 1950 with a concentration in the late 19th and early 20th century. So lots of steam which requires higher wheel maintenance than diesel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Fulltime RVer with fixed winter RV site in the Sonoran desert near Harquahala Mtn, LaPaz Co, AZ 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12753
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question very early Ulrich
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W., If you could check your early magazines for an Ulrich ad I'd sure 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
appreciate it.  I can't get at my earlier issues right now as their buried. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 I was lucky to have come up with those two Ulrich GN kits almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
immediately, but that was only because I never got to store them in their proper 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
storage carton; found them in the attic sitting on top of the cartons.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Yeah, that Ulrich address is really odd, as is that instruction sheet.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Never knew they ever produced them that way.  That rare sheet alone might be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
worth $25 <g>.  While I'm back up on line, I thought you might be interested 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
in an abridged Ulrich Dealer's catalog I have from 1953 (has a green & black 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
cover); it's stamped "Burhanna Model Shop, 6224 Germantown Ave., 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Philadelphia 44, PA -- anyone know if they still exist?  It's abridged as it doesn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
include the wood sheathed box cars, the general service gondolas or the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
trailer trucks, etc.  I believe the triple hoppers were added later, as I recall.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Anyhow, the description for the Outside Braced Box Cars is an interesting 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
read, which I'll add here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Outside braced box cars are noted for their sturdy appearance due to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
fact that the structural bracing is on the outside of the sheathing.  They 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
were built in the period from 1922-29 following the era of all-wood sheathed 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
box cars.  Because this period was a boom-time for railroads, many were built 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
and these cars still represent one of the most prominent types of rolling 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
stock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
This kit is another very highly detailed Ulrich model.  The sides are real 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
wood, as on the prototype, with exterior die-cast metal bracing.  Metal ends 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
have all rivet detail.  One end contains the brake platform and brake wheel 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
gear box.  Wooden roof and stamped steel roof ribs are supplied with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
kit.  Roof walk is a superbly-detailed die casting with individual boards held 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
in place by cross-braces as on the real cars.  Doors are stamped steel and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
operate smoothly.  AB brake equipment is supplied.  $2.90 with sprung 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
trucks."
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Looks like that says it all <g>.  Anyhow, I just now came upon something 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
else real interesting.  Dave Spanagel wrote his Ulrich article in two parts, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
with the second part published in the Volume 9 number 4 (July 1991) issue of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
"The Reporting Mark," which I just noticed now.  In it, he states that the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
11423 Vanowen St. - Unit #28, North Hollywood, CA address was first used in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
1963.  I don't know how accurate this part is, as it doesn't make much sense 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
to switch from a die-cast outside bracing to individual wood slats 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
(apparently only on the SL-SF 'Frisco' O/B "Collector's Car" series kit, new that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
year, 1963) after being so successful with die-cast bracing on the 12 other 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
outside braced cars produced since 1947, but anything is possible.  As you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
know, Walthers picked up this line and continued producing Ulrich kits sometime 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
afterwards -- with die-cast bracing for the Outside Braced cars.  I believe 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Walthers included die-cast bracing for the SL-SF O/B car as well, in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Cars of the Roaring Twenties" (Collector's Series) kits, as I remember it.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Perhaps Dave may be able to clear the address part up when he can tell us 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
which box his kit came in.  From what Spangel says, the multi-colored boxes that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Walther used later was first used in 1960.  If this is what Dave has, then 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
it that would support what Spanagel said about the address, and would 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
indicate individual wood bracing being used on the SL-SF car, of which somehow the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
instructions for it wound up in Dave's GN kit box.  But until then, it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
still remains a mystery.  Ray F.W.   
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
BTW: check your 1963 MR's too for Ulrich's ad.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12754
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question very early Ulrich
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W., If you could check your early magazines for an Ulrich ad I'd sure appreciate it.  I can't get at my earlier issues right now as their buried.  I was lucky to have come up with those two Ulrich GN kits almost immediately, but that was only because I never got to store them in their proper storage carton; found them in the attic sitting on top of the cartons.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yeah, that Ulrich address is really odd, as is that instruction sheet.  Never knew they ever produced them that way.  That rare sheet alone might be worth $25 <g>.  While I'm back up on line, I thought you might be interested in an abridged Ulrich Dealer's catalog I have from 1953 (has a green & black cover); it's stamped "Burhanna Model Shop, 6224 Germantown Ave., Philadelphia 44, PA -- anyone know if they still exist?  It's abridged as it doesn't include the wood sheathed box cars, the general service gondolas or the trailer trucks, etc.  I believe the triple hoppers were added later, as I recall.  Anyhow, the description for the Outside Braced Box Cars is an interesting read, which I'll add here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    "Outside braced box cars are noted for their sturdy appearance due to the fact that the structural bracing is on the outside of the sheathing.  They were built in the period from 1922-29 following the era of all-wood sheathed box cars.  Because this period was a boom-time for railroads, many were built and these cars still represent one of the most prominent types of rolling stock.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    This kit is another very highly detailed Ulrich model.  The sides are real wood, as on the prototype, with exterior die-cast metal bracing.  Metal ends have all rivet detail.  One end contains the brake platform and brake wheel gear box.  Wooden roof and stamped steel roof ribs are supplied with the kit.  Roof walk is a superbly-detailed die casting with individual boards held in place by cross-braces as on the real cars.  Doors are stamped steel and operate smoothly.  AB brake equipment is supplied.  $2.90 with sprung trucks."

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Looks like that says it all <g>.  Anyhow, I just now came upon something else real interesting.  Dave Spanagel wrote his Ulrich article in two parts, with the second part published in the Volume 9 number 4 (July 1991) issue of "The Reporting Mark," which I just noticed now.  In it, he states that the 11423 Vanowen St. - Unit #28, North Hollywood, CA address was first used in 1963.  I don't know how accurate this part is, as it doesn't make much sense to switch from a die-cast outside bracing to individual wood slats (apparently only on the SL-SF 'Frisco' O/B "Collector's Car" series kit, new that year, 1963) after being so successful with die-cast bracing on the 12 other outside braced cars produced since 1947, but anything is possible.  As you know, Walthers picked up this line and continued producing Ulrich kits sometime afterwards -- with die-cast bracing for the Outside Braced cars.  I believe Walthers included die-cast bracing for the SL-SF O/B car as well, in the "Cars of the Roaring Twenties" (Collector's Series) kits, as I remember it.  Perhaps Dave may be able to clear the address part up when he can tell us which box his kit came in.  From what Spangel says, the multi-colored boxes that Walther used later was first used in 1960.  If this is what Dave has, then it that would support what Spanagel said about the address, and would indicate individual wood bracing being used on the SL-SF car, of which somehow the instructions for it wound up in Dave's GN kit box.  But until then, it still remains a mystery.  Ray F.W.   

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    BTW: check your 1963 MR's too for Ulrich's ad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12755
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't think I have instructions.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The ones referenced I found in my search to find exactly what I had.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I am waiting for the remainder of the "stuff" to show up on the First to see what is there.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
If I don't have the instructions, I will contact you!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > Dave, In case you're still wondering about the instruction sheet included 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> with your GN kit, what I was trying to indicate in my previous post is that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Ulrich must have started produced kits (without these one-piece die-casting 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> braces) even earlier than the 1947 date that he first started manufacturing 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> your kit, and that somehow this (wrong) earlier sheet was included with your 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> car, but I don't know if I made that completely clear.  Ray F.W.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12756
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Freight Truck Springs
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Where does one locate these in bulk anymore?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have some trucks here (probably 10-12) with no springs at all.....in fact, from my misspent youth, some still have the folded cardboard pieces glued in where the springs WERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I am fairly certain, with the 10 boxes of stuff coming on the First, that more will be in pieces in the bottom of the box.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
So, who has them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12757
						From: luvprr@aol.com
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Freight Truck Springs
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                    You talking about leaf springs?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 12/28/2009 8:59:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
idioticyahoo@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Where 
  does one locate these in bulk anymore?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have some trucks here 
  (probably 10-12) with no springs at all.....in fact, from my misspent youth, 
  some still have the folded cardboard pieces glued in where the springs 
  WERE!

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am fairly certain, with the 10 boxes of stuff coming on the 
  First, that more will be in pieces in the bottom of the box.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    So, who 
  has 
  them?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave



                                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12758
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Freight Truck Springs
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    The little coil springs, about the size of the Kadee springs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > You talking about leaf springs?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> In a message dated 12/28/2009 8:59:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> idioticyahoo@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Where  does one locate these in bulk anymore?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have some trucks here  (probably 10-12) with no springs at all.....in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> fact, from my misspent youth,  some still have the folded cardboard pieces 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> glued in where the springs  WERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I am fairly certain, with the 10 boxes of stuff coming on the  First, that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> more will be in pieces in the bottom of the box.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> So, who  has  them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo!  Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12759
						From: Wobbly913
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Freight Truck Springs
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Kadee offers truck springs on their website:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Wobbly913

                                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Mon, 12/28/09, luvprr@... <luvprr@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: luvprr@... <luvprr@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Freight Truck Springs
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Monday, December 28, 2009, 6:01 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    You talking about leaf springs?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 12/28/2009 8:59:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, idioticyahoo@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Where does one locate these in bulk anymore?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have some trucks here (probably 10-12) with no springs at all.....in fact, from my misspent youth, some still have the folded cardboard pieces glued in where the springs WERE!

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am fairly certain, with the 10 boxes of stuff coming on the First, that more will be in pieces in the bottom of the box.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    So, who has them?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave



                                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------------------------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yahoo! Groups Links

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12760
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Freight Truck Springs
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    If "Perfect" is still around--check their rack in the hobby shop
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 5:58 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Freight Truck Springs
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Where does one locate these in bulk anymore?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have some trucks here (probably 10-12) with no springs at all.....in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> fact, from my misspent youth, some still have the folded cardboard pieces 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> glued in where the springs WERE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I am fairly certain, with the 10 boxes of stuff coming on the First, that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> more will be in pieces in the bottom of the box.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> So, who has them?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12761
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: SHEEEEEEEEEEEE.......
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    My head is swimming, guys.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Got a call from a good friend about 45 minutes ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Come on over" he says.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
4 BIG boxes of stuff.......Mantua (metal) freight cars....Ulrich.....SilverStreak....Flyer....Varney......gotta be 60 cars in there.....BOXES of parts, ladders, grabs, couplers, trucks......turntable...power packs....buidings....INCLUDING TWO Skyline sets (cardstock buildings).....and........
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
A Varney Mikado (sprung)......two Varney Old Lady 2-8-0's, a Hobbyline 0-4-0 (powered), an Athearn 0-6-0....and I ain't sure what else....except it's all in the front seat of the 50 Pickup (barely).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gotta go unload it now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I don't dare tell you how much money exchanged hands...or you'd never talk to me again....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
BTW, the newspaper between layers is 1967.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12762
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Quick question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    What brand boxcars had the 4 metal tabs on the sides that you bent over and ran screws vertically up into the chassis, just inboard of the trucks?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Look like brass inside, factory painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12763
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Quick question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    trainsnwrcs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > What brand boxcars had the 4 metal tabs on the sides that you bent over and ran screws vertically up into the chassis, just inboard of the trucks?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Look like brass inside, factory painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                        I think that's Athearn, before they went plastic?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Only in America do people order double cheeseburgers, large
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
fries and a Diet Coke.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12764
						From: the_plainsman
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question very early Ulrich
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ray F.W.,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Taking a bit longer than I thought as have to re-sort the magazines(!) and stop to take notes on other items as well.  In early 1948, the Ulrich address is given as 7906 Naylor, some ads have no address, then by mid 1950, it has changed to 4233 Babcock.  Will be filling in the blanks, also check 1963.  Will email a partial spreadsheet listing which models were featured in each ad, might make an interesting study when done.  Good night!  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
W Jay W..
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> W Jay W., If you could check your early magazines for an Ulrich ad I'd sure 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> appreciate it.  I can't get at my earlier issues right now as their buried. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  I was lucky to have come up with those two Ulrich GN kits almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> immediately, but that was only because I never got to store them in their proper 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> storage carton; found them in the attic sitting on top of the cartons.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yeah, that Ulrich address is really odd, as is that instruction sheet.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Never knew they ever produced them that way.  That rare sheet alone might be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> worth $25 <g>.  While I'm back up on line, I thought you might be interested 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in an abridged Ulrich Dealer's catalog I have from 1953 (has a green & black 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> cover); it's stamped "Burhanna Model Shop, 6224 Germantown Ave., 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Philadelphia 44, PA -- anyone know if they still exist?  It's abridged as it doesn't 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> include the wood sheathed box cars, the general service gondolas or the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> trailer trucks, etc.  I believe the triple hoppers were added later, as I recall.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Anyhow, the description for the Outside Braced Box Cars is an interesting 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> read, which I'll add here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "Outside braced box cars are noted for their sturdy appearance due to the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> fact that the structural bracing is on the outside of the sheathing.  They 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> were built in the period from 1922-29 following the era of all-wood sheathed 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> box cars.  Because this period was a boom-time for railroads, many were built 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and these cars still represent one of the most prominent types of rolling 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> stock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> This kit is another very highly detailed Ulrich model.  The sides are real 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> wood, as on the prototype, with exterior die-cast metal bracing.  Metal ends 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> have all rivet detail.  One end contains the brake platform and brake wheel 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> gear box.  Wooden roof and stamped steel roof ribs are supplied with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> kit.  Roof walk is a superbly-detailed die casting with individual boards held 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in place by cross-braces as on the real cars.  Doors are stamped steel and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> operate smoothly.  AB brake equipment is supplied.  $2.90 with sprung 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> trucks."
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Looks like that says it all <g>.  Anyhow, I just now came upon something 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> else real interesting.  Dave Spanagel wrote his Ulrich article in two parts, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> with the second part published in the Volume 9 number 4 (July 1991) issue of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "The Reporting Mark," which I just noticed now.  In it, he states that the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 11423 Vanowen St. - Unit #28, North Hollywood, CA address was first used in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1963.  I don't know how accurate this part is, as it doesn't make much sense 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to switch from a die-cast outside bracing to individual wood slats 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (apparently only on the SL-SF 'Frisco' O/B "Collector's Car" series kit, new that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> year, 1963) after being so successful with die-cast bracing on the 12 other 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> outside braced cars produced since 1947, but anything is possible.  As you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> know, Walthers picked up this line and continued producing Ulrich kits sometime 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> afterwards -- with die-cast bracing for the Outside Braced cars.  I believe 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Walthers included die-cast bracing for the SL-SF O/B car as well, in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "Cars of the Roaring Twenties" (Collector's Series) kits, as I remember it.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Perhaps Dave may be able to clear the address part up when he can tell us 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> which box his kit came in.  From what Spangel says, the multi-colored boxes that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Walther used later was first used in 1960.  If this is what Dave has, then 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> it that would support what Spanagel said about the address, and would 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> indicate individual wood bracing being used on the SL-SF car, of which somehow the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> instructions for it wound up in Dave's GN kit box.  But until then, it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> still remains a mystery.  Ray F.W.   
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> BTW: check your 1963 MR's too for Ulrich's ad.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12765
						From: Tom
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Wheels?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, I too have used a dremel tool for years.  Aligator clips to the loco to get it running, turn it upside down and it works super.  I use the brass brush as well, one more reason is that when the wires get loose and come out of the brush the magnet in the motor will not pick up the brass bristles.  Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson B" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm surprised you've had success with steel brushes, Fred, because I've had steel Dremel brushes score nickel silver wheels. To be safe, I only use the brass brushes on my wheels now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I don't think I've ever heard of an outdoor HO layout! That must be tough on the track and equipment, even in the southwest.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > My preference for cleaning my locomotive drive wheels (16 or so steam and diesel locos), especially those wheels (including tender wheels) which make electrical contact is also a Dremel wire brush, in particular Dremel #530 stainless steel brush. I have an unusual HO layout in that it's located outside (albeit double rain tarp covered, sun tarps on the "walls") but still exposed to the SW Arizona desert air pollution (nitric and sulfuric acids, dust, and various other pollutants which make for beautiful sunsets but is hell on tracks and wheels). While over the years I tried a variety of wheel cleaning methods including chemicals and cradles, they just didn't work as well as the Dremel brushes; the standard wheel and track cleaners are just not intended for outdoor layouts. Dremel makes several brushes and buffing wheels (the #512E also works well but the buffs quickly wear out) but the #530 S/S seems to work best. I brush the wheels as they are exposed turning the engine upside down, put the engine on the track, move it ahead ever so slightly (say, 1/4 turn), brush the next exposed dirty wheel section/quadrant, then move it ahead again. Repeat four or so times until wheels are bright all around once again. The wire brushes are gentle, not abrasive so there is no wear on the contact wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The frequency with which I have to clean my wheels depends upon the air pollution index, frequency of desert storms (dust/sand, occasional rain, wind velocity), and frequency of use of my trains (the better the weather, the more I run my trains, thus the greater the interval between cleaning sessions). I also head end a Walthers track cleaning car #931-752 (two actually, one each for two active tracks), slightly bashed for my layout period which keeps the track clean with a slightly abrasive stone which also needs cleaning from time to time. There is also a correlation between frequency of cleaning drive wheels and the model manufacturer, but that's for a different thread.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > FWIW, I model the New York Ontario & Western, period 1860/70s up to 1950 with a concentration in the late 19th and early 20th century. So lots of steam which requires higher wheel maintenance than diesel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Fulltime RVer with fixed winter RV site in the Sonoran desert near Harquahala Mtn, LaPaz Co, AZ
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12766
						From: Tom
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cleaning Wheels?
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, I too have used a dremel tool for years.  Aligator clips to the loco to get it running, turn it upside down and it works super.  I use the brass brush as well, one more reason is that when the wires get loose and come out of the brush the magnet in the motor will not pick up the brass bristles.  Tom
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson B" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I'm surprised you've had success with steel brushes, Fred, because I've had steel Dremel brushes score nickel silver wheels. To be safe, I only use the brass brushes on my wheels now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I don't think I've ever heard of an outdoor HO layout! That must be tough on the track and equipment, even in the southwest.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Nelson
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > My preference for cleaning my locomotive drive wheels (16 or so steam and diesel locos), especially those wheels (including tender wheels) which make electrical contact is also a Dremel wire brush, in particular Dremel #530 stainless steel brush. I have an unusual HO layout in that it's located outside (albeit double rain tarp covered, sun tarps on the "walls") but still exposed to the SW Arizona desert air pollution (nitric and sulfuric acids, dust, and various other pollutants which make for beautiful sunsets but is hell on tracks and wheels). While over the years I tried a variety of wheel cleaning methods including chemicals and cradles, they just didn't work as well as the Dremel brushes; the standard wheel and track cleaners are just not intended for outdoor layouts. Dremel makes several brushes and buffing wheels (the #512E also works well but the buffs quickly wear out) but the #530 S/S seems to work best. I brush the wheels as they are exposed turning the engine upside down, put the engine on the track, move it ahead ever so slightly (say, 1/4 turn), brush the next exposed dirty wheel section/quadrant, then move it ahead again. Repeat four or so times until wheels are bright all around once again. The wire brushes are gentle, not abrasive so there is no wear on the contact wheels.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > The frequency with which I have to clean my wheels depends upon the air pollution index, frequency of desert storms (dust/sand, occasional rain, wind velocity), and frequency of use of my trains (the better the weather, the more I run my trains, thus the greater the interval between cleaning sessions). I also head end a Walthers track cleaning car #931-752 (two actually, one each for two active tracks), slightly bashed for my layout period which keeps the track clean with a slightly abrasive stone which also needs cleaning from time to time. There is also a correlation between frequency of cleaning drive wheels and the model manufacturer, but that's for a different thread.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > FWIW, I model the New York Ontario & Western, period 1860/70s up to 1950 with a concentration in the late 19th and early 20th century. So lots of steam which requires higher wheel maintenance than diesel.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Fred Stevens
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Fulltime RVer with fixed winter RV site in the Sonoran desert near Harquahala Mtn, LaPaz Co, AZ
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12767
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: whoooooooo-eeeeeee
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I got a small 4-drawer storage cabinet for Christmas.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Drawers about 8X10, 2" deep or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I FILLED it with just the parts that I took out of all sorts of boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Brand new Central Valley trucks, still in their plastic boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Brand new SilverStreak trucks, still in their yellow cardboard boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Truck, wheels, SPRINGS for the trucks, new Kadees in the bags, ladder stock, screws, man....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Got the motor (out) for the Athearn 0-6-0 cleaned and running.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mount it tomorrow and test it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The HobbyLine 0-4-0 is cleaned, lubed and runs. Need to clean the drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The Varney Mike wouldn't run....thought the motor was seized....just gummed up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
It will clean up tomorrow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Putting cabeese back together again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The Skyline buildings have never been assembled.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Oh, and Ulrich trucks,,,,,tractor and trailer, a pair.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I think I need to go calm down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12768
						From: Charlie
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: whoooooooo-eeeeeee
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Woweee
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
You are upsetting the natives. We are all envious. Wow what a find. Any 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Laconia Mathieson Ice cars you wan to sell ? or E6B body.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Charlie Harris
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
NewZealand
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
trainsnwrcs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I got a small 4-drawer storage cabinet for Christmas.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Drawers about 8X10, 2" deep or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I FILLED it with just the parts that I took out of all sorts of boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Brand new Central Valley trucks, still in their plastic boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Brand new SilverStreak trucks, still in their yellow cardboard boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Truck, wheels, SPRINGS for the trucks, new Kadees in the bags, ladder 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> stock, screws, man....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Got the motor (out) for the Athearn 0-6-0 cleaned and running.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mount it tomorrow and test it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The HobbyLine 0-4-0 is cleaned, lubed and runs. Need to clean the drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The Varney Mike wouldn't run....thought the motor was seized....just 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> gummed up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> It will clean up tomorrow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Putting cabeese back together again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The Skyline buildings have never been assembled.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Oh, and Ulrich trucks,,,,,tractor and trailer, a pair.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I think I need to go calm down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12769
						From: Rhbale@aol.com
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question very early Ulrich
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 



                                                                                                                                                                                                    Some might find the following information helpful.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    In the late 1950s Charlie Ulrich operated his enterprise out of his 
residence at 4233 Babcock, North Hollywood. His friend George Hook, who 
owned Central Valley Scale Models, was located in a small industrial 
building about 5 miles north at 13000 Saticoy, North Hollywood. In the 
summer of 1962 Charlie purchased the 410M line of paint from 
Stewart-Lundahl (located just across the SP mainline from Central 
Valley) and moved all Ulrich operations to nearby 11423 Vanowen where 
he remained until the winter of 1969-70 when he was bought out by 
Walthers. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    The following brief announcement appeared in the trade press in 
January 1970: According to Bruce Walthers, the complete line of Ulrich 
Highway Truck kits and Open Top Freight Car kits have been purchased by Wm. 
K. Walthers, Inc., and will be operated as a Division of the parent company. 
   
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Incidentally, North Hollywood was a WW-II boom-town in San Fernando 
Valley that sprouted up around the huge war plants - notably Lockheed, 
Hughes and GM plus thousands of smaller specialty factories. It is an 
independent city with a curious name since it is not associated with, or 
even near, the section of Los Angeles known as "Hollywood."  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Richard Bale
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    In a message dated 12/28/2009 9:14:07 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
the_plainsman@... writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Ray F.W.,

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Taking a bit longer than I thought as have to re-sort 
  the magazines(!) and stop to take notes on other items as well. In early 1948, 
  the Ulrich address is given as 7906 Naylor, some ads have no address, then by 
  mid 1950, it has changed to 4233 Babcock. Will be filling in the blanks, also 
  check 1963. Will email a partial spreadsheet listing which models were 
  featured in each ad, might make an interesting study when done. Good night! 
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W..

                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, 
  erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > W Jay W., If you could 
  check your early magazines for an Ulrich ad I'd sure 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > appreciate it. I 
  can't get at my earlier issues right now as their buried. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I was lucky 
  to have come up with those two Ulrich GN kits almost 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > immediately, but 
  that was only because I never got to store them in their proper 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  storage carton; found them in the attic sitting on top of the cartons. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Yeah, that Ulrich address is really odd, as is that 
  instruction sheet. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Never knew they ever produced them that way. That 
  rare sheet alone might be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > worth $25 <g>. While I'm back up on 
  line, I thought you might be interested 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > in an abridged Ulrich 
  Dealer's catalog I have from 1953 (has a green & black 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cover); 
  it's stamped "Burhanna Model Shop, 6224 Germantown Ave., 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Philadelphia 
  44, PA -- anyone know if they still exist? It's abridged as it doesn't 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > include the wood sheathed box cars, the general service gondolas or 
  the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > trailer trucks, etc. I believe the triple hoppers were added 
  later, as I recall. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Anyhow, the description for the Outside Braced 
  Box Cars is an interesting 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > read, which I'll add here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "Outside braced box cars are noted for their sturdy appearance due to 
  the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > fact that the structural bracing is on the outside of the 
  sheathing. They 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > were built in the period from 1922-29 following the 
  era of all-wood sheathed 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > box cars. Because this period was a 
  boom-time for railroads, many were built 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > and these cars still 
  represent one of the most prominent types of rolling 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > stock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > This kit is another very highly detailed Ulrich model. The sides are 
  real 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > wood, as on the prototype, with exterior die-cast metal bracing. 
  Metal ends 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > have all rivet detail. One end contains the brake platform 
  and brake wheel 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > gear box. Wooden roof and stamped steel roof ribs are 
  supplied with the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > kit. Roof walk is a superbly-detailed die casting 
  with individual boards held 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > in place by cross-braces as on the real 
  cars. Doors are stamped steel and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > operate smoothly. AB brake 
  equipment is supplied. $2.90 with sprung 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > trucks."
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Looks like that says it all <g>. Anyhow, I just now came upon something 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > else real interesting. Dave Spanagel wrote his Ulrich article in two 
  parts, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > with the second part published in the Volume 9 number 4 (July 
  1991) issue of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "The Reporting Mark," which I just noticed now. In it, 
  he states that the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 11423 Vanowen St. - Unit #28, North Hollywood, CA 
  address was first used in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 1963. I don't know how accurate this part 
  is, as it doesn't make much sense 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to switch from a die-cast outside 
  bracing to individual wood slats 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > (apparently only on the SL-SF 
  'Frisco' O/B "Collector's Car" series kit, new that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > year, 1963) after 
  being so successful with die-cast bracing on the 12 other 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > outside 
  braced cars produced since 1947, but anything is possible. As you 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  know, Walthers picked up this line and continued producing Ulrich kits 
  sometime 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > afterwards -- with die-cast bracing for the Outside Braced 
  cars. I believe 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Walthers included die-cast bracing for the SL-SF O/B 
  car as well, in the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "Cars of the Roaring Twenties" (Collector's 
  Series) kits, as I remember it. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Perhaps Dave may be able to clear the 
  address part up when he can tell us 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > which box his kit came in. From 
  what Spangel says, the multi-colored boxes that 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Walther used later 
  was first used in 1960. If this is what Dave has, then 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it that would 
  support what Spanagel said about the address, and would 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > indicate 
  individual wood bracing being used on the SL-SF car, of which somehow the 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > instructions for it wound up in Dave's GN kit box. But until then, it 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > still remains a mystery. Ray F.W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > BTW: check your 
  1963 MR's too for Ulrich's ad.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12770
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/28/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Quick question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sounds like Varney--what is the underbody made of?  Do the sides look litho? 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
early ones had wood floor and die cast frame, later ones had plastic.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 8:33 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Quick question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> What brand boxcars had the 4 metal tabs on the sides that you bent over 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and ran screws vertically up into the chassis, just inboard of the trucks?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Look like brass inside, factory painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.5.431 / Virus Database: 270.14.122/2591 - Release Date: 12/28/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
19:32:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12771
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question very early Ulrich
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    W Jay W.,  Many thanks for browsing through your magazines.  I know what you mean about having to re-sort them.  While it's always handy to keep them in order by month & year, they can quickly be a mess when we look for something and forget to stack them accordingly again.  Looks like you would need to check any more of them though; with Richard B's input on some history, he's given us the answer on that "mystery" address.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12772
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: ANOTHER question very early Ulrich
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Richard,  Yes, this info is most helpful.  Thanks for supplying us with these time frames and these manufacturers' associations with each other.  As you mentioned, Stewart-Lundahl Company (410-M Paints) was near Central Valley Scale Models -- it was located at 7349 Coldwater Canyon, North Hollywood, Calif.  Glad you pointed out though, that North Hollywood is in San Fernando Valley as I too thought it was just "north" of Hollywood, near L.A.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, I guess most of us are aware the Walthers took over Ulrich around 1970; they did continue to carry the three car series of "Collector" kits along with the open top cars.  That series consisted of an A.R.T. Reefer, a Frisco Box Car and an Enterprise General Service Gondola, two of these cars not being open top.  Up until that time and as far back as at least 1967, Walthers was purchasing all of the Ulrich line of kits to include in their catalog as one of many other independant manufacturers they handled.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks again for these historic tid bits, it's always helpful to be able to piece things together.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12773
						From: Chris B
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: whoooooooo-eeeeeee
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    "heeeeeewack!!!!!  Too-o-o-o-o-o-o freaking MUCH!"  (NYT 1968)

                                                                                                                                                                                                    envious doesn't cover it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    this is like finding King Tut's tomb.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave must have been on Santa's very good list.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Congratulations!

                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Charlie <charlie@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 1:52:33 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO]
 whoooooooo-eeeeeee

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Woweee

                                                                                                                                                                                                    You are upsetting the natives. We are all envious. Wow what a find. Any 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Laconia Mathieson Ice cars you wan to sell ? or E6B body.



                                                                                                                                                                                                    Charlie Harris
                                                                                                                                                                                                    NewZealand



                                                                                                                                                                                                    trainsnwrcs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I got a small 4-drawer storage cabinet for Christmas.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Drawers about 8X10, 2" deep or so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I FILLED it with just the parts that I took out of all sorts of boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Brand new Central Valley trucks, still in their plastic boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Brand new SilverStreak trucks, still in their yellow cardboard boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Truck, wheels, SPRINGS for the trucks, new Kadees in the bags, ladder 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > stock, screws, man....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Got the motor (out) for the Athearn 0-6-0 cleaned and running.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Mount it tomorrow and test it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > The HobbyLine 0-4-0 is cleaned, lubed and runs. Need to clean the drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > The Varney Mike wouldn't run....thought the motor was
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                     seized....just 
                                                                                                                                                                                                     > gummed up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > It will clean up tomorrow.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Putting cabeese back together again.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > The Skyline buildings have never been assembled.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Oh, and Ulrich trucks,,,,,tractor and trailer, a pair.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I think I need to go calm down.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 


                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------------------------------

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12774
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Quick question
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Quick identifier.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Assuming metal 40' AAR style boxcars that superficially all look the same 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
sitting on the track.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Body sides flush with floor, no tabs, floor usually wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 Athearn metal
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Four tabs, spaced opposite each other, floor wood.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 Globe (Predecessor of Athearn)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Four tabs, offset from each other, floor usually metal
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 International (made in Japan)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
These are generalizations, but they're usually a pretty good identifier.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
If anyone wants I can take some pics of each style.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 11:06 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Quick question
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> trainsnwrcs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> What brand boxcars had the 4 metal tabs on the sides that you bent over 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> and ran screws vertically up into the chassis, just inboard of the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> trucks?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Look like brass inside, factory painted.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>    I think that's Athearn, before they went plastic?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12775
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: SHEEEEEEEEEEEE.......
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I hate you. :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 10:29 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] SHEEEEEEEEEEEE.......
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> My head is swimming, guys.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Got a call from a good friend about 45 minutes ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "Come on over" he says.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 4 BIG boxes of stuff.......Mantua (metal) freight 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> cars....Ulrich.....SilverStreak....Flyer....Varney......gotta be 60 cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> in there.....BOXES of parts, ladders, grabs, couplers, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> trucks......turntable...power packs....buidings....INCLUDING TWO Skyline 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> sets (cardstock buildings).....and........
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> A Varney Mikado (sprung)......two Varney Old Lady 2-8-0's, a Hobbyline 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 0-4-0 (powered), an Athearn 0-6-0....and I ain't sure what else....except 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> it's all in the front seat of the 50 Pickup (barely).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gotta go unload it now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I don't dare tell you how much money exchanged hands...or you'd never talk 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to me again....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> BTW, the newspaper between layers is 1967.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12776
						From: ttcollector60
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: SHEEEEEEEEEEEE.......
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Group:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
If any of you folks should run accross any North American TT Scale items in your hauls of stuff, please advise me as I am always interested in this scale as a side line and will be happy to assist you with identification and or purchase of any unwanted TT items.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
G A "Jerry" Golembowski
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Grandy, NC
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
252-453-4794 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> My head is swimming, guys.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Got a call from a good friend about 45 minutes ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> "Come on over" he says.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 4 BIG boxes of stuff.......Mantua (metal) freight cars....Ulrich.....SilverStreak....Flyer....Varney......gotta be 60 cars in there.....BOXES of parts, ladders, grabs, couplers, trucks......turntable...power packs....buidings....INCLUDING TWO Skyline sets (cardstock buildings).....and........
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> A Varney Mikado (sprung)......two Varney Old Lady 2-8-0's, a Hobbyline 0-4-0 (powered), an Athearn 0-6-0....and I ain't sure what else....except it's all in the front seat of the 50 Pickup (barely).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gotta go unload it now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I don't dare tell you how much money exchanged hands...or you'd never talk to me again....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> BTW, the newspaper between layers is 1967.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12777
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: whoooooooo-eeeeeee
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    THAT IS JUST NOT RIGH DAVE!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I got an electric razor for Christmas... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 1:32:13 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] whoooooooo-eeeeeee

                                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I got a small 4-drawer storage cabinet for Christmas.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Drawers about 8X10, 2" deep or so.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I FILLED it with just the parts that I took out of all sorts of boxes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Brand new Central Valley trucks, still in their plastic boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Brand new SilverStreak trucks, still in their yellow cardboard boxes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Truck, wheels, SPRINGS for the trucks, new Kadees in the bags, ladder stock, screws, man....

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Got the motor (out) for the Athearn 0-6-0 cleaned and running.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Mount it tomorrow and test it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    The HobbyLine 0-4-0 is cleaned, lubed and runs. Need to clean the drivers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    The Varney Mike wouldn't run....thought the motor was seized....just gummed up.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    It will clean up tomorrow.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Putting cabeese back together again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    The Skyline buildings have never been assembled.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Oh, and Ulrich trucks,,,,,tractor and trailer, a pair.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I think I need to go calm
 down.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12778
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Cloistered Life
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
This Varney Mike....tender is a 1932K Vanderbilt.....need to put the top handrails on it.....I don't think I have ever seen Central Valley sprung 6-wheel tender trucks before.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Those are NICE, and I imagine the rolling characteristics under the sand-cast bronze tender will certainly help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Go the motor assembly cleaned up.....man, was it gummed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gears cleaned out, bearings, lubed and greased, test run, smooth.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gotta get some photos of these cars, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12779
						From: Gary Woodard
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cloistered Life
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, photos please, yes!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Gary W
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!


                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 3:18:33 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Cloistered Life

                                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I guess.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    This Varney Mike....tender is a 1932K Vanderbilt.. ...need to put the top handrails on it.....I don't think I have ever seen Central Valley sprung 6-wheel tender trucks before.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Those are NICE, and I imagine the rolling characteristics under the sand-cast bronze tender will certainly help.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Go the motor assembly cleaned up.....man, was it gummed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Gears cleaned out, bearings, lubed and greased, test run, smooth.....

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Gotta get some photos of these cars, though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12780
						From: Larry
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: SHEEEEEEEEEEEE.......
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Awww. Play nice or we'll have to take Dave's toys away... 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Larry

                                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Tue, 12/29/09, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] SHEEEEEEEEEEEE.......
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 5:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I hate you. :-)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 10:29 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] SHEEEEEEEEEEEE.......


                                                                                                                                                                                                    > My head is swimming, guys.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Got a call from a good friend about 45 minutes ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > "Come on over" he says.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 4 BIG boxes of stuff.......Mantua (metal) freight 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > cars....Ulrich.....SilverStreak....Flyer....Varney......gotta be 60 cars 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > in there.....BOXES of parts, ladders, grabs, couplers, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > trucks......turntable...power packs....buidings....INCLUDING TWO Skyline
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > sets (cardstock buildings).....and........
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > A Varney Mikado (sprung)......two Varney Old Lady 2-8-0's, a Hobbyline 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 0-4-0 (powered), an Athearn 0-6-0....and I ain't sure what else....except 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > it's all in the front seat of the 50 Pickup (barely).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Gotta go unload it now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I don't dare tell you how much money exchanged hands...or you'd never talk 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > to me again....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > BTW, the newspaper between layers is 1967.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >



                                                                                                                                                                                                    ------------------------------------

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                                                                                                                                                                    <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                                                                                                                                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

                                                                                                                                                                                                    <*> Your email settings:
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
   Individual Email | Traditional

                                                                                                                                                                                                    <*> To change settings online go to:
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                                                                                                                                                                                                        (Yahoo! ID required)

                                                                                                                                                                                                    <*> To change settings via email:
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                                                                                                                                                                                                    <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                                                                                                                                                                        vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12781
						From: Richard White
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cloistered Life
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    



 
Hi Dave- Is the Varney Mike the early version (S.P. prototype), either bronze or lead superstructure, or the later version, usually a bronze casting, and more of a heavy-duty superstructure (shares the bronze superstructure with the Hudson and the Berkshire)? I had the later version once, and unfortunately sold it in the 80's. It was semi-assembled, never run. Love that Varney! -Richard White 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: idioticyahoo@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:18:33 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Cloistered Life

                                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I guess.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    This Varney Mike....tender is a 1932K Vanderbilt.. ...need to put the top handrails on it.....I don't think I have ever seen Central Valley sprung 6-wheel tender trucks before.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Those are NICE, and I imagine the rolling characteristics under the sand-cast bronze tender will certainly help.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Go the motor assembly cleaned up.....man, was it gummed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Gears cleaned out, bearings, lubed and greased, test run, smooth.....

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Gotta get some photos of these cars, though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 		 	   		  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12782
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cloistered Life
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I think it's the early SP type.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Has the angled number boards aft of the stack.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Got 'er cleaned and lubed, cleaned the drivers, runs good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The only things I gotta find are:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The plug for the tender wire, and one step for the tender (Vandy), as it's broken off and not in the box.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I gotta do some photos tonight.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
One of the Old Lady 2-8-0's cleaned up, oiled up, and runs good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The other......needs all drivers, main rods and cylinder block, plus a tender floor, as Zamac Rot has gotten to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Boiler, pilot, chassis are all fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > Hi Dave- Is the Varney Mike the early version (S.P. prototype), either bronze or lead superstructure, or the later version, usually a bronze casting, and more of a heavy-duty superstructure (shares the bronze superstructure with the Hudson and the Berkshire)? I had the later version once, and unfortunately sold it in the 80's. It was semi-assembled, never run. Love that Varney! -Richard White 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: idioticyahoo@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:18:33 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Cloistered Life
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> This Varney Mike....tender is a 1932K Vanderbilt.....need to put the top handrails on it.....I don't think I have ever seen Central Valley sprung 6-wheel tender trucks before.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Those are NICE, and I imagine the rolling characteristics under the sand-cast bronze tender will certainly help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Go the motor assembly cleaned up.....man, was it gummed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gears cleaned out, bearings, lubed and greased, test run, smooth.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gotta get some photos of these cars, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  		 	   		  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> _________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12783
						From: Chris B
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cloistered Life
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    some varney parts on ebay...

                                                                                                                                                                                                    =============

                                                                                                                                                                                                    HO VARNEY METAL DIE-CAST & BRASS PARTS FROM 1948 CAT.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    		1
 Bid$29.994d 18h 26m
                                                                                                                                                                                                    CONSIGNMENT LOT E-15
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     HO SCALE VINTAGE VARNEY METAL AND BRASS PARTS
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    FROM 1948 CATALOG-N.O.S.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      # 18121    - ONE DOZEN PISTON RODS
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      # V-1779L - 2-VALVE GEAR HANGERS
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      # V-1831   - VALVE GEAR PARTS 2-PCS
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      # V-1830   - VALVE GEAR PARTS 6-PCS
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      # V-1549   -LITTLE JOE SIDE RODS 2-PCS
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      # V-885     -VALVE GEAR PARTS 2-PCS
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      # V-2049   -MAIN RODS 4-PCS
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      # V-2166   -PISTON RODS 3-PCS 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      # V-1779B -VALVE GEAR HANGERS 3-PCS
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      # V-1806   -MAIN RODS 7-PCS
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      # V-1810   -MAIN RODS 12-PCS
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      # V-1779A -VALVE GEAR HANGER 1-PCS
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 

                                                                                                                                                                                                       ABOUT 5 DOZEN PIECES INCLUDING BRASS
PACIFIC AND MIKADO SIDE FRAMES, WHEELS, GEARS, FRAME SPACERS, 3 DIE
CAST TRAILING TRUCKS, BOTTOM PLATES, AND OTHER SMALL PARTS.









                                                                                                                                                                                                    From:                                                                                                                                                                                                     trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 6:13:55 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Cloistered Life

                                                                                                                                                                                                    







 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I think it's the early SP type.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Has the angled number boards aft of the stack.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Got 'er cleaned and lubed, cleaned the drivers, runs good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The only things I gotta find are:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The plug for the tender wire, and one step for the tender (Vandy), as it's broken off and not in the box.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I gotta do some photos tonight.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
One of the Old Lady 2-8-0's cleaned up, oiled up, and runs good.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The other......needs all drivers, main rods and cylinder block, plus a tender floor, as Zamac Rot has gotten to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Boiler, pilot, chassis are all fine.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > Hi Dave- Is the Varney Mike the early version (S.P. prototype), either bronze or lead superstructure, or the later version, usually a bronze casting, and more of a heavy-duty superstructure (shares the bronze superstructure with the Hudson and the Berkshire)? I had the later version once, and unfortunately sold it in the 80's. It was semi-assembled, never run. Love that Varney! -Richard White 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: idioticyahoo@ ...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:18:33 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Cloistered Life
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> This Varney Mike....tender is a 1932K Vanderbilt.. ...need to put the top handrails on it.....I don't think I have ever seen Central Valley sprung 6-wheel tender trucks before.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Those are NICE, and I imagine the rolling characteristics under the sand-cast bronze tender will certainly help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Go the motor assembly cleaned up.....man, was it gummed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gears cleaned out, bearings, lubed and greased, test run, smooth.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gotta get some photos of these cars, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  		 	   		  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://clk.atdmt. com/GBL/go/ 177141665/ direct/01/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
     





                                                                                                                                                                                                    



                                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12784
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Definitely Varney cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://hoseeker.net/varneyinstructionscar/VarneySteelboxcar1952pg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I actually have two with no floors at all, tabs never bent over.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Got an Ulrich stock, for sure, same construction as my outside-braced boxcar, in fact, if it didn't have the slat sections, but solid, it would BE an outside braced boxcar.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12785
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Definitely Varney cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Varney's not as tall as the "other" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
steel boxcars I mentioned in my post?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Definitely Varney cars
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://hoseeker.net/varneyinstructionscar/VarneySteelboxcar1952pg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I actually have two with no floors at all, tabs never bent over.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Got an Ulrich stock, for sure, same construction as my outside-braced 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> boxcar, in fact, if it didn't have the slat sections, but solid, it would 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> BE an outside braced boxcar.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12786
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Definitely Varney cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Don't know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I shall check.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
But, these have the bend-over screw tabs, 2 per side, one per end, like I see on the 1951 Varney pages on HOSeeker.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have a couple out, and will compare.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Varney's not as tall as the "other" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> steel boxcars I mentioned in my post?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Definitely Varney cars
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://hoseeker.net/varneyinstructionscar/VarneySteelboxcar1952pg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I actually have two with no floors at all, tabs never bent over.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Got an Ulrich stock, for sure, same construction as my outside-braced 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > boxcar, in fact, if it didn't have the slat sections, but solid, it would 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > BE an outside braced boxcar.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12787
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Definitely Varney cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yup.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
If you take a stock 40' Athearn Blue Box without the roofwalk, they are the same.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Add the roofwalk, it's that much taller.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Same width and length.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I now have another Varney without a frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
One was popping the ends off, took it apart, frame is swelled and bowed, and twisted.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Painted both sides, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Varney's not as tall as the "other" 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> steel boxcars I mentioned in my post?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Definitely Varney cars
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://hoseeker.net/varneyinstructionscar/VarneySteelboxcar1952pg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I actually have two with no floors at all, tabs never bent over.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Got an Ulrich stock, for sure, same construction as my outside-braced 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > boxcar, in fact, if it didn't have the slat sections, but solid, it would 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > BE an outside braced boxcar.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12788
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Cloistered Life
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    The one at the bottom of the page in this link looks just like it, right down to the tender behind it!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1947pg16.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hi Dave- Is the Varney Mike the early version (S.P. prototype), either bronze or lead superstructure, or the later version, usually a bronze casting, and more of a heavy-duty superstructure (shares the bronze superstructure with the Hudson and the Berkshire)? I had the later version once, and unfortunately sold it in the 80's. It was semi-assembled, never run. Love that Varney! -Richard White 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: idioticyahoo@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:18:33 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Cloistered Life
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I guess.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> This Varney Mike....tender is a 1932K Vanderbilt.....need to put the top handrails on it.....I don't think I have ever seen Central Valley sprung 6-wheel tender trucks before.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Those are NICE, and I imagine the rolling characteristics under the sand-cast bronze tender will certainly help.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Go the motor assembly cleaned up.....man, was it gummed.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gears cleaned out, bearings, lubed and greased, test run, smooth.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Gotta get some photos of these cars, though.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>  		 	   		  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> _________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12789
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/29/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: More....
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    The guy I got the trains from stopped by today to check on progress, and filled me in on "the rest of the story".
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
If he didn't remember I liked this old H0 stuff, his nephew was hauling it all to the landfill.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
This one was close.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12790
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 12/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Definitely Varney cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    That's what I thought.  Thanks
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 12:56 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Definitely Varney cars
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yup.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> If you take a stock 40' Athearn Blue Box without the roofwalk, they are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> the same.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Add the roofwalk, it's that much taller.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Same width and length.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I now have another Varney without a frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> One was popping the ends off, took it apart, frame is swelled and bowed, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and twisted.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Painted both sides, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Varney's not as tall as the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> "other"
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> steel boxcars I mentioned in my post?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:09 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Subject: [vintageHO] Definitely Varney cars
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > http://hoseeker.net/varneyinstructionscar/VarneySteelboxcar1952pg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > I actually have two with no floors at all, tabs never bent over.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Got an Ulrich stock, for sure, same construction as my outside-braced
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > boxcar, in fact, if it didn't have the slat sections, but solid, it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > would
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > BE an outside braced boxcar.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12791
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Definitely Varney cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'd guess here, in this context, an Athearn "Blue Box" might be referring to a later plastic model.  The Varney metal box cars ARE shorter than the Athearn metal box cars, though, with Varney metal reefers being the same height as their box cars.  On the other hand, Athearn metal reefers are shorter than the Athearn metal box cars.  I'd have to say that the Athearn line of metal cars are probably the best proportioned and nearest to scale.  Quite noticeably, the Globe metal reefers, being as tall as the Globe metal box cars are really too tall to look well proportioned, easily seen by the additional space between the door and the roof, but we appreciate them all for what they are and can easily overlook what most of us feel are minor inadequacies.  Ray   
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12792
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Box 4
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Just finished going through Box 4 and sorting it out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Track.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
LOTS of curved sections, not much straight.......but it seems every possible type of crossing section known to mankind.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Turnouts...and two double-slip, one Atlas brass, one PECO NS.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Never had any double-slips before.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
At least in 2-rail H0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
2 more small power packs, Rico AHM station, and a single-stall engine shed, plus a whole lot of cardstock buildings, neatly disassembled and stacked.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Probably make good kindling.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I sorted all the instruction sheets, and passed the list to Larry at HOSeeker, see if he wants copies.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Even have a TYCO Chatanooga choo-choo maintenance sheet, but, alas, no Chatanooga Choo-Choos.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Shucky-darn.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12793
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Photos Up!
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave's Christmas 2009 album, shows 4 of the engines.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
5th engine, another 2-8-0 Varney Old Lady, is now in pieces awaiting Dan's return and parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12794
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: SilverStreak cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    What type of ladders were used?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Did it depend on when they were made?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have an auto box, no grabs or ladders, shows ladders here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://hoseeker.net/silverstreakinformation/silverstreakautoboxcarinstr.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I have two boxcars, no ladders or grabs, shows individual grabs here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://hoseeker.net/silverstreakinformation/silverstreakboxcarpg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I will be trying to sort these three cars out in the new year sometime, and thought I would ask ahead of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12795
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Varney Mikes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                         I just got back from 
a mini vacation to find 132 Emails and I'm trying to respond to some. Sometimes 
I don't function to good late at night to start with and then trying to dig out 
and print info with no mistakes becomes hard. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                         I'm sending 3 pictures of 
my engines for you to use against what ID you are seeking
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm hoping Ray F W gets involved 
in this and can keep me on the right track too. I have the Varney guide aside of 
me but to much to read now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        First picture is a 300k  
pre war bronze SP style body using the Varney V-1  6 volt motor. All 
drivers except the one geared to the motor "flexed" by means of copper V shaped 
spring material in the frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Second picture is a post war 
Super SP style body using the Varney V -2  12 volt motor. This has what was 
called the equalized drivers as all were sprung even the driver attached to the 
motor. ( I'd have to check further as to boiler material as I think it is now 
cast lead, by checking book or scratching paint off )
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Third picture is a Varney Super 
Mikado with different style body and drivers still equalized using a V-2 
 12 volt motor. Again not sure about boiler material but can follow up on 
it also. (I believe the number is 1788k and I will have to check boiler material 
as I think this is cast brass)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                         There is an economy model 
with rigid frame  (no flexing / equalized drivers) and open frame type 
motor  numbered 2300k (off the top of my head) that I have but I can't find 
quick enough to photo.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Let me know if any 
of this helps. I have reread this Email I'm posting and "HOPE" I wrote 
and copied it right.  Check the hoseeker Gallery / Varney for other 
pics
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                           While not 
getting into styles of tenders you are lucky to have a cast brass/bronze 
Vanderbilt style. A little harder to come by. Again without writing a lot 
of facts this late at night (without rereading to recheck facts) if anything 
from these pictures "rings a bell" we can go further and deeper. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12796
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    If you are trying to properly locate the grabs and ladders--check into the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
NMRA Data Sheets--they have several pages lifted from older "United States 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Safety Appliance Standards"
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Unfortunately, the disaster squad packed my binder and I don't find this one 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
on the CD.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 3:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] SilverStreak cars
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> What type of ladders were used?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Did it depend on when they were made?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have an auto box, no grabs or ladders, shows ladders here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://hoseeker.net/silverstreakinformation/silverstreakautoboxcarinstr.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I have two boxcars, no ladders or grabs, shows individual grabs here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://hoseeker.net/silverstreakinformation/silverstreakboxcarpg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I will be trying to sort these three cars out in the new year sometime, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> and thought I would ask ahead of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.5.431 / Virus Database: 270.14.123/2594 - Release Date: 12/30/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
07:27:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12797
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am trying to build them as delivered by SilverStreak.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The two links show some with ladders, some with grabs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Which is when?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > If you are trying to properly locate the grabs and ladders--check into the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> NMRA Data Sheets--they have several pages lifted from older "United States 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Safety Appliance Standards"
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Unfortunately, the disaster squad packed my binder and I don't find this one 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> on the CD.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 3:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] SilverStreak cars
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > What type of ladders were used?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Did it depend on when they were made?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I have an auto box, no grabs or ladders, shows ladders here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://hoseeker.net/silverstreakinformation/silverstreakautoboxcarinstr.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I have two boxcars, no ladders or grabs, shows individual grabs here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > http://hoseeker.net/silverstreakinformation/silverstreakboxcarpg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > I will be trying to sort these three cars out in the new year sometime, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > and thought I would ask ahead of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Version: 8.5.431 / Virus Database: 270.14.123/2594 - Release Date: 12/30/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 07:27:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12798
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yeah, mine is #2, had figured that out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Modified to I think GN practice.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
What was the part number for the second one?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
First is a 300K, last is a 1788K.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Inside the boiler it's lead or zamac.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Tender is sand cast bronze.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      I just got back from a mini vacation to find 132 Emails and I'm trying to respond to some. Sometimes I don't function to good late at night to start with and then trying to dig out and print info with no mistakes becomes hard. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      I'm sending 3 pictures of my engines for you to use against what ID you are seeking
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     I'm hoping Ray F W gets involved in this and can keep me on the right track too. I have the Varney guide aside of me but to much to read now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     First picture is a 300k  pre war bronze SP style body using the Varney V-1  6 volt motor. All drivers except the one geared to the motor "flexed" by means of copper V shaped spring material in the frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Second picture is a post war Super SP style body using the Varney V -2  12 volt motor. This has what was called the equalized drivers as all were sprung even the driver attached to the motor. ( I'd have to check further as to boiler material as I think it is now cast lead, by checking book or scratching paint off )
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Third picture is a Varney Super Mikado with different style body and drivers still equalized using a V-2  12 volt motor. Again not sure about boiler material but can follow up on it also. (I believe the number is 1788k and I will have to check boiler material as I think this is cast brass)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      There is an economy model with rigid frame  (no flexing / equalized drivers) and open frame type motor  numbered 2300k (off the top of my head) that I have but I can't find quick enough to photo.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       Let me know if any of this helps. I have reread this Email I'm posting and "HOPE" I wrote and copied it right.  Check the hoseeker Gallery / Varney for other pics
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        While not getting into styles of tenders you are lucky to have a cast brass/bronze Vanderbilt style. A little harder to come by. Again without writing a lot of facts this late at night (without rereading to recheck facts) if anything from these pictures "rings a bell" we can go further and deeper. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                       Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12799
						From: Rick Jones
						Date: 12/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    trainsnwrcs wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > I am trying to build them as delivered by SilverStreak.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The two links show some with ladders, some with grabs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Which is when?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                      My guess, it depends on the prototype. Some had grab irons and some 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
had ladders. Or do you have 2 identical kits with both variations?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
                   Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Some people are like a Slinky - not really good for anything,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
but you can't help smiling when you see one of them tumble down
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
stairs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12800
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have two identical UP boxcars and one similar UP auto box, and there are NO grabs or ladders with what I got (in addition to a couple of other things, but I figured I'd do the easy part first).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Maybe they used grabs on the boxes and ladders on the auto box.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I don't know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Being Vintage, I wanted them to look like they would have looked had someone assembled them 50 years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Geez.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
50 years ago.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I got my first SilverStreak (green M&STL boxcar) in 1956, maybe 1955.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Last thing my Dad bought me as far as trains before his final illness.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     >   My guess, it depends on the prototype. Some had grab irons and some 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> had ladders. Or do you have 2 identical kits with both variations?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> -- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                    Rick Jones
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12801
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 12/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    In the 70's when Walthers sold them, in the catalog 40' boxcars and 50' Auto 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
cars are shown with grabs on the sides, ladders on the ends.  The 40' auto 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
cars are shown with ladders on sides and ends, as are the reefers
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: SilverStreak cars
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I am trying to build them as delivered by SilverStreak.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The two links show some with ladders, some with grabs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Which is when?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
(text bobbitted) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12802
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/30/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    .from the illustrations on the instructions the ladders look like cast.  As 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I remember the SS  kits the grab irons were probably staples of a size close 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
to the proper length--from 16 to 20 inches.  spacing of ladder 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
rungs/grab-iron ladders I think should be 16".  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 6:42 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: SilverStreak cars
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I am trying to build them as delivered by SilverStreak.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The two links show some with ladders, some with grabs.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Which is when?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> If you are trying to properly locate the grabs and ladders--check into 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> the
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> NMRA Data Sheets--they have several pages lifted from older "United 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> States
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Safety Appliance Standards"
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Unfortunately, the disaster squad packed my binder and I don't find this 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> one
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> on the CD.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 3:24 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Subject: [vintageHO] SilverStreak cars
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > What type of ladders were used?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Did it depend on when they were made?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > I have an auto box, no grabs or ladders, shows ladders here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > http://hoseeker.net/silverstreakinformation/silverstreakautoboxcarinstr.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > I have two boxcars, no ladders or grabs, shows individual grabs here:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > http://hoseeker.net/silverstreakinformation/silverstreakboxcarpg1.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > I will be trying to sort these three cars out in the new year sometime,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > and thought I would ask ahead of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Version: 8.5.431 / Virus Database: 270.14.123/2594 - Release Date: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 12/30/09
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> 07:27:00
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Version: 8.5.431 / Virus Database: 270.14.123/2594 - Release Date: 12/30/09 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
07:27:00 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12803
						From: Jim Waterman
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Varney Mikes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Really cool that each of these has a different 
style of valve gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Is one of them modified from Varney standard? 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12804
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        The first pre war and the second 
super post war are Varney valve gear and they were different. The last picture 
with the different boiler I am a little in the dark about. I don't believe it is 
the original Varney as it seems to be brass. Never checked it out as I bought it 
this way and don't like to "touch" in not needed. To easy to break these old 
gems. I'll have to check my Varney guide to be sure. I'll let you know later but 
think some others will know right away.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 6:19 
  AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Varney 
Mikes
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Really cool that each of these has a different 
  style of valve gear.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Is one of them modified from Varney standard? 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim Waterman
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12805
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I will be busy this morning 
getting our new SUV. Later this afternoon I will go into the Varney Guide and 
let you know what number it uses for the Varney Super Mike with V-2 motor and SP 
type boiler. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Perhaps someone will beat me to 
it (RFW maybe) . Last night I was even hesitant to say things off the top of my 
head about the different types of Varney Mikes. Don't want to confuse the 
issue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Jim 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 9:45 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney 
  Mikes
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yeah, mine is #2, had figured that out.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Modified to I think GN 
  practice.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    What was the part number for the second one?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    First is a 300K, 
  last is a 1788K.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Inside the boiler it's lead or zamac.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Tender is sand 
  cast bronze.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I just got back from a mini 
  vacation to find 132 Emails and I'm trying to respond to some. Sometimes I 
  don't function to good late at night to start with and then trying to dig out 
  and print info with no mistakes becomes hard. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'm sending 3 
  pictures of my engines for you to use against what ID you are seeking
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I'm hoping Ray F W gets involved in this and can keep me on the right 
  track too. I have the Varney guide aside of me but to much to read 
  now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > First picture is a 300k pre war bronze SP style body 
  using the Varney V-1 6 volt motor. All drivers except the one geared to the 
  motor "flexed" by means of copper V shaped spring material in the 
  frame.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Second picture is a post war Super SP style body using 
  the Varney V -2 12 volt motor. This has what was called the equalized drivers 
  as all were sprung even the driver attached to the motor. ( I'd have to check 
  further as to boiler material as I think it is now cast lead, by checking book 
  or scratching paint off )
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Third picture is a Varney Super 
  Mikado with different style body and drivers still equalized using a V-2 12 
  volt motor. Again not sure about boiler material but can follow up on it also. 
  (I believe the number is 1788k and I will have to check boiler material as I 
  think this is cast brass)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > There is an economy model with 
  rigid frame (no flexing / equalized drivers) and open frame type motor 
  numbered 2300k (off the top of my head) that I have but I can't find quick 
  enough to photo.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Let me know if any of this helps. I have 
  reread this Email I'm posting and "HOPE" I wrote and copied it right. Check 
  the hoseeker Gallery / Varney for other pics
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > While not 
  getting into styles of tenders you are lucky to have a cast brass/bronze 
  Vanderbilt style. A little harder to come by. Again without writing a lot of 
  facts this late at night (without rereading to recheck facts) if anything from 
  these pictures "rings a bell" we can go further and deeper. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12806
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave,  Silver Streak used ladders on the Auto Box Cars (double-door) and Reefers.  They used grab irons on the single-door box cars.  Did you have reason to doubt the instruction sheets you link to, showing this?  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12807
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jim W.,  Varney produced two different types of valve gear -- Laird and Alligator -- depending upon which engine model it was used with.  As far as I know, none of their valve gear was stamped brass though.  Ray F.W. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12808
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dave, Jim H.,  I will also be tied up for a good while this morning, and will be back here to answer some of these questions later.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12809
						From: John H
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Varney Mikes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim W.,  Varney produced two different types of valve gear -- Laird and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Alligator -- depending upon which engine model it was used with.  As far as I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> know, none of their valve gear was stamped brass though.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Laird and alligator refers to the crosshead type. I do not know which Varney used with which valve gear or if they crossed over but I do know I have seen different valve gear on Varney Mikes, depending on if the model in question is a super or standard. And yes it is also very possible the crosshead type was also dofferent on each. Necr noticed and don't have the time right now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
What I do find interesting about the Mikes is the rather extreme angle of the Eccentric Rod. Only in the last couple of days did it finally dawn on me that this is caused by Varney using the same valve gear on both their Pacific's and Mikado's and for some reason that I haven't quite figured out, retain the same relative mounting height used to clear the high drivers of the Pacific on the Mikes. Heck most every one built a Pacific and a Mikado using the same boiler and many other components, including the valve gear so this nothing unusual except that the frames (which obviously had to be different) were designed so the valve gear would line up better with the respective drivers. This is not meant to be a knock on one of the very best of the early HO manufacturers at all. I like all of the early steam from Varney very much. Just what I consider an interesting tidbit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12810
						From: Stephen Neubaum
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    To touch on the Pacific/Mikado similarities:

                                                                                                                                                                                                    The 1:1 scale railroads used similar parts too, the Pennsy's K-4 boiler design was also used on their Mikados, for example.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I have a few John English locomotives, a pair of Mikes and a Pacific. None have valve gear. Not a major issue, but I think I have seen John Englishes with them, so the question I have is, can I use the same valve gear between these two. That is, am I looking for two different valve gear designs, one for a Pacific, one for a Mike?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Also, Mantua's Pacific boiler looks very good on their Mikado frame. Coupled with a Bowser/Varney 32' tender, it looks reasonably close to a USRA Mikado. I have converted a number of these engines. I like the Pacific 'light' boiler much more than the Mikado 'heavy' boiler. Seems to be better detailed from the factory.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    -Steve
 Neubaum

                                                                                                                                                                                                     --- On Thu, 12/31/09, John H <sprinthag@...> wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: John H <sprinthag@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Varney Mikes
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Date: Thursday, December 31, 2009, 9:59 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                    





 



    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
      
      
      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, erieberk@... wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Jim W.,  Varney produced two different types of valve gear -- Laird and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Alligator -- depending upon which engine model it was used with.  As far as I 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> know, none of their valve gear was stamped brass though.  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Laird and alligator refers to the crosshead type. I do not know which Varney used with which valve gear or if they crossed over but I do know I have seen different valve gear on Varney Mikes, depending on if the model in question is a super or standard. And yes it is also very possible the crosshead type was also dofferent on each. Necr noticed and don't have the time right now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
What I do find interesting about the Mikes is the rather extreme angle of the Eccentric Rod. Only in the last couple of days did it finally dawn on me that this is caused by Varney using the same valve gear on both their Pacific's and Mikado's and for some reason that I haven't quite figured out, retain the same relative mounting height used to clear the high drivers of the Pacific on the Mikes. Heck most every one built a Pacific and a Mikado using the same boiler and many other components, including the valve gear so this nothing unusual except that the frames (which obviously had to be different) were designed so the valve gear would line up better with the respective drivers. This is not meant to be a knock on one of the very best of the early HO manufacturers at all. I like all of the early steam from Varney very much. Just what I consider an interesting tidbit.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
John Hagen
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
     



 



                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12811
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    What is not clear is the year.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Since most of the instruction sheets lack a year, I did not know whether or naught at some point the production changed from grabs to ladder stock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Before I go and "do" it, I wanted to make sure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Makes dating kind of hard when they didn't put dates on most of these sheets.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
For instance, if grabs were "early", and the boxcar diagrams are "early", and ladders are "late", and the auto box diagrams are from near the end of production.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thought it best to check before I drilled holes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     >> Dave,  Silver Streak used ladders on the Auto Box Cars (double-door) and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Reefers.  They used grab irons on the single-door box cars.  Did you have 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> reason to doubt the instruction sheets you link to, showing this?  Ray F.W.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12812
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: J English Mike & Pacific Valve Gear
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve N,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
In response to one of your questions concerning the J English Mikado & 
Pacific's valve gear being the same or different. Hopefully these two pictures 
can help. First is the JE Mike, second the Pacific.  When I got these engines they needed some repair plus I repainted and 
decaled them. What ever valve gear was on them stayed on them. I can't guarantee 
these are original JE but might be a good start in your search as there are 
differences.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                       The 3rd picture is from a Bowser 
catalog showing their JE replacement drives with valve gear which I'm not even 
sure is being sold now. While these are complete Bowser replacements the valve 
gear also does seem to be different as far as the hanger parts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                       Hope these are some help to your 
question.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12813
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    John,  I EXPECTED this very reply, but was hoping I didn't need to explain 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
this if eveyone knew Varney products, or if they didn't, would at first ask 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
for an explanation before stating their own opinion .  Yes, I know -- Laird 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
and Alligator refer to the types of crossheads -- but -- as per Varney's 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
catalogs -- THESE DESIGNATIONS are assigned to each specific type of valve gear 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
going back as far as at least 1939; Pacific Type -- Alligator Crossheads 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
and Consolidation -- Laird Crossheads.   On page 23 of the Varney catalog for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
that year, in the section for Cylinders, the two types of Crossheads are 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
listed (as Crossheads) as part of the Cylinder Assembly -- clearly defining 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
them as crossheads as spelling out their use.  BUT -- on page 27 of the same 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
catalog, Varney lists the two available Valve Gear sets designating them as # 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
137 Pacific Type -- Alligator Crossheads and # 225 Consolidation -- Laird 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Crossheads,  sprcifying their use as well as NAMING THEM THUSLY.  Each Valve 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Gear type was specified to be used ONLY with their corresponding Crosshead 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
type.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
This carried right through into post-War engine kits.  In general (AS PER 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
VARNEY --- Catalogs 1947, 1948 and 1949, large format) Alligator Crossheads 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
-- and matching "Pacific" Valve Gear was used for 72" Drivers, and Laird 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Crossheads -- and matching "Consolidation" Valve Gear was used for 63" Drivers 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
although Varney did state that individual "various valve gear parts may be 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
interchanged to produce a wide variety of your own design." 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
"Alligator/Pacific".Valve Gear was not reserved solely for Pacifics (both, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Economy and Super), as this was used also on both Economy and Streamlined 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Hudsons and on Northerns.  Likewise, the "Laird/Consolidation" Valve Gear was 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
not just reserved for the Heavy Consol (Economy and Super) but was used for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
the Heavy Switcher (0-8-0), the Economy Mikado and the Berkshire.  The 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Alligator set up was used for the Yellowstone though, as well as the Super 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mikado.  Varney DID NOT use the same valve gear on their Pacifics as they did on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
their Mikados, as they used ONLY the "Alligator/Pacific" type valve gear on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
their Pacifics, whether the Economy Pacififc, the Streamlined Pacific or the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Super Pacific.  Both types of Valve Gear was used on the Mikado, depending 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
on whether Economy or Super.  This -- as coming with kits directly from the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
factory, not as "most every one built" them.  Ray F.W.        . </HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12814
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve,  Central Valley valve gear was used on John English Pacifics and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mikados (as well as on other locos).  I believe you'd need to use the valve 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
gear set that was specified for either a Pacific or for a Mikado.  I have a few 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
kits of both engines, some with valve gear kits, and will let you know on 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
them.  Ray F.W.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12815
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave, Jim W, Ray FW,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                           The pictures I 
have sent are close ups on my Super Mikado with the later style (non SP type 
boiler ) cast brass boiler that was also used on the Berkshire and 
Hudson.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                         Dave,   First to 
answer your question as to the number Varney used on the Super Mikado with V-2 
12 volt motor you have. Let me quote page 53 of the Varney Guide "The earliest 
kits (1788k 2-8-2 Super Mikado kit ) came with the same cast lead boiler that 
was supplied with the Pacific. ( now if I am reading this right it would be the 
same style SP boiler type as the pre war Mikado used that was bronze, but now 
cast lead ). In 1949 Varney completed the molds for the brass boiler which 
was also used for the Berkshire and Hudson ". According to this both SUPER 
Mikado engines, even though using different style boilers and materials, were 
numbered 1788k. Anyone feeling different please let me know. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jim W, Ray 
FW,     As to the type of valve gear on my later model 
(different heavier style boiler) Super Mikado. I think it is NOT the 
original but have no idea as to whose it is. It looks to me as made from brass 
(or an alloy) and not just painted gold or brass.. I have included close up 
pictures for you or others to ID. According to the Varney book  Page 
53  the valve gear that Varney would have used on this engine is the 
1780k.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12816
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    You'll have to excuse this old guy asking again.....but, in your dissertation below, the early ones are 1788K and the later ones are 1788K?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
At the end of the second paragraph, you reference a 1780K.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
What's that?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The ONLY reason I ask these things, well, two reasons, is one, I want to know, just so I know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Two, I print out any data sheets or information, and either place it with the units in question (if stored) or in a binder with a note identifying the piece, so someday, whoever has to get rid of this stuff, will know what it is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > Dave, Jim W, Ray FW,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>        The pictures I have sent are close ups on my Super Mikado with the later style (non SP type boiler ) cast brass boiler that was also used on the Berkshire and Hudson.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>      Dave,   First to answer your question as to the number Varney used on the Super Mikado with V-2 12 volt motor you have. Let me quote page 53 of the Varney Guide "The earliest kits (1788k 2-8-2 Super Mikado kit ) came with the same cast lead boiler that was supplied with the Pacific. ( now if I am reading this right it would be the same style SP boiler type as the pre war Mikado used that was bronze, but now cast lead ). In 1949 Varney completed the molds for the brass boiler which was also used for the Berkshire and Hudson ". According to this both SUPER Mikado engines, even though using different style boilers and materials, were numbered 1788k. Anyone feeling different please let me know. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     Jim W, Ray FW,     As to the type of valve gear on my later model (different heavier style boiler) Super Mikado. I think it is NOT the original but have no idea as to whose it is. It looks to me as made from brass (or an alloy) and not just painted gold or brass.. I have included close up pictures for you or others to ID. According to the Varney book  Page 53  the valve gear that Varney would have used on this engine is the 1780k.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12817
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave, I think you can be pretty safe in using grab irons or ladders as 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
they've been stated.  Going back as for as 1950, Silver Streak/Pacific H0 used 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
ladders for their reefers and Auto Box Cars -- and grab irons for their 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
regular box cars.  1953 seemed to be the only year that I can find where they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
used grab irons on their auto cars and ladders on their box cars (and reefers). 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
 Checking various other years coming forward, still under Pacific H0, in 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
1961, 1964, 1967, 1969 and 1971, ladders were used for auto cars and reefers 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
with grab irons being used for box cars.  After Walthers took them over, they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
(Walthers) still continued with using ladders for their Silver Streak auto 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
cars and reefers and grab irons for box cars; my early through late kits 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
bear this out.  Ray F.W. </HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12818
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Steve,  Just checked my John English loco kits found the valve gear kits 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
with them unlabled (in plain sealed clear plastic bags, no printing), although 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I know they're Central Valley.  What's not stated though, is any particular 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
specification for a particular engine.  I noticed though, that just as John 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
English used the same boiler for both engines(Pacific and Mikado), they 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
also used the same cylinder block -- meant for Alligator Crossheads.  Good 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
chance that the same valve gear was used with both.  Ray F.W. </HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12819
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave,  Varney #1780K is the Mikado Valve Gear Kit for Alligator Crossheads, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
meant for the Economy Mike (and others), but not for the Super Mike.  Ray 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
F.W.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12820
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    



 
 


 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    That's Baker valve gear--the "short-bracket " type 
(there was another bracket that would span a driver rather than mount between 
them as this is.  Kemtron made both types in brass--could be what you have 
here.  The linkage to the crosshead and to the eccentric crank were similar 
to the Walschaerts.  A claimed advantage of the Baker was that it had all 
round joints rather than the sliding blocks in the reverse linkages as did 
Walschaerts and Stephenson.  Most types of valve gear are shown in 
Kalmbach's Model Railroader Cyclopedia, Vol. 1: Steam Locomotives.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 12:10 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Odd valve gear on 
  Varney Super Mike II [2 Attachments]
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave, Jim W, Ray FW,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                           The pictures 
  I have sent are close ups on my Super Mikado with the later style (non SP type 
  boiler ) cast brass boiler that was also used on the Berkshire and 
  Hudson.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                         Dave,   First 
  to answer your question as to the number Varney used on the Super Mikado with 
  V-2 12 volt motor you have. Let me quote page 53 of the Varney Guide "The 
  earliest kits (1788k 2-8-2 Super Mikado kit ) came with the same cast lead 
  boiler that was supplied with the Pacific. ( now if I am reading this right it 
  would be the same style SP boiler type as the pre war Mikado used that was 
  bronze, but now cast lead ). In 1949 Varney completed the molds for the 
  brass boiler which was also used for the Berkshire and Hudson ". According to 
  this both SUPER Mikado engines, even though using different style boilers 
  and materials, were numbered 1788k. Anyone feeling different please let me 
  know. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Jim W, Ray 
  FW,     As to the type of valve gear on my later model 
  (different heavier style boiler) Super Mikado. I think it is NOT the 
  original but have no idea as to whose it is. It looks to me as made from brass 
  (or an alloy) and not just painted gold or brass.. I have included close up 
  pictures for you or others to ID. According to the Varney book  Page 
  53  the valve gear that Varney would have used on this engine is the 
  1780k.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
  Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

  

                                                                                                                                                                                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
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						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12821
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ah, so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Then the 1788K is the same part number used on the 1946-1949 Super Mikes as on the 1949 and later ones?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > Dave,  Varney #1780K is the Mikado Valve Gear Kit for Alligator Crossheads, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> meant for the Economy Mike (and others), but not for the Super Mike.  Ray 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> F.W.</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12822
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                               No 
problem.. The way I read the Varney Guide by Spanagel  both post war 
versions ( although using different style boilers ) of the 
Varney "Super" Mikado's with the 12 volt V-2 
motors are numbered 1788k.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                          The reference number 
of 1780k I cited  was the Varney number for the valve gear that should be 
on the later heavy cast brass boiler type ( not the SP boiler 
type).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                          My interpretation 
only and the reason I ask others to check what I wrote. Hope I'm doing 
better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 3:23 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Odd valve gear 
  on Varney Super Mike II
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    You'll have to excuse this old guy asking again.....but, in your 
  dissertation below, the early ones are 1788K and the later ones are 
  1788K?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    At the end of the second paragraph, you reference a 1780K.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    What's 
  that?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    The ONLY reason I ask these things, well, two reasons, is one, I 
  want to know, just so I know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Two, I print out any data sheets or 
  information, and either place it with the units in question (if stored) or in 
  a binder with a note identifying the piece, so someday, whoever has to get rid 
  of this stuff, will know what it is.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Dave

                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dave, Jim W, Ray 
  FW,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > The pictures I have sent are close ups on my Super Mikado 
  with the later style (non SP type boiler ) cast brass boiler that was also 
  used on the Berkshire and Hudson.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dave, First to answer your 
  question as to the number Varney used on the Super Mikado with V-2 12 volt 
  motor you have. Let me quote page 53 of the Varney Guide "The earliest kits 
  (1788k 2-8-2 Super Mikado kit ) came with the same cast lead boiler that was 
  supplied with the Pacific. ( now if I am reading this right it would be the 
  same style SP boiler type as the pre war Mikado used that was bronze, but now 
  cast lead ). In 1949 Varney completed the molds for the brass boiler which was 
  also used for the Berkshire and Hudson ". According to this both SUPER Mikado 
  engines, even though using different style boilers and materials, were 
  numbered 1788k. Anyone feeling different please let me know. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Jim W, Ray FW, As to the type of valve gear on my later model (different 
  heavier style boiler) Super Mikado. I think it is NOT the original but have no 
  idea as to whose it is. It looks to me as made from brass (or an alloy) and 
  not just painted gold or brass.. I have included close up pictures for you or 
  others to ID. According to the Varney book Page 53 the valve gear that Varney 
  would have used on this engine is the 1780k.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Jim 
  H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >

                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12823
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Very strange. I guess if you were ordering superstructure parts from Varney you had to be certain of the part number more than the model number.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Just seemed odd to me, that's all.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > Hi Dave,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>            No problem.. The way I read the Varney Guide by Spanagel  both post war versions ( although using different style boilers ) of the Varney "Super" Mikado's with the 12 volt V-2 motors are numbered 1788k.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       The reference number of 1780k I cited  was the Varney number for the valve gear that should be on the later heavy cast brass boiler type ( not the SP boiler type).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       My interpretation only and the reason I ask others to check what I wrote. Hope I'm doing better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>                                                                        Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>       
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   From: trainsnwrcs 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 3:23 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   You'll have to excuse this old guy asking again.....but, in your dissertation below, the early ones are 1788K and the later ones are 1788K?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   At the end of the second paragraph, you reference a 1780K.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   What's that?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   The ONLY reason I ask these things, well, two reasons, is one, I want to know, just so I know.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Two, I print out any data sheets or information, and either place it with the units in question (if stored) or in a binder with a note identifying the piece, so someday, whoever has to get rid of this stuff, will know what it is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Dave, Jim W, Ray FW,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > The pictures I have sent are close ups on my Super Mikado with the later style (non SP type boiler ) cast brass boiler that was also used on the Berkshire and Hudson.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Dave, First to answer your question as to the number Varney used on the Super Mikado with V-2 12 volt motor you have. Let me quote page 53 of the Varney Guide "The earliest kits (1788k 2-8-2 Super Mikado kit ) came with the same cast lead boiler that was supplied with the Pacific. ( now if I am reading this right it would be the same style SP boiler type as the pre war Mikado used that was bronze, but now cast lead ). In 1949 Varney completed the molds for the brass boiler which was also used for the Berkshire and Hudson ". According to this both SUPER Mikado engines, even though using different style boilers and materials, were numbered 1788k. Anyone feeling different please let me know. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Jim W, Ray FW, As to the type of valve gear on my later model (different heavier style boiler) Super Mikado. I think it is NOT the original but have no idea as to whose it is. It looks to me as made from brass (or an alloy) and not just painted gold or brass.. I have included close up pictures for you or others to ID. According to the Varney book Page 53 the valve gear that Varney would have used on this engine is the 1780k.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   > Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>   >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12824
						From: erieberk@wmconnect.com
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H.,  One slight addition here, and while it's relatively minor it's 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
still an important factor not to be overlooked when comparing the Varney # 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
1850D post-War Pacific (SP style) boiler to the similar # 400 Pre-War (SP 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
style) boilers  -- the third and also very similar (SP style) post-War Pacific 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
# 1787-K-6 lead boiler is not to be confused with the first boiler 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
mentioned.  While they may be essentially the same (style), much of the detail is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
cast on to the 1787-K-6 post-War boiler. whereas the modeler needs to add such 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
included (but separate) details such as the power reverse, air tanks and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
piping below the walk-way on the former boiler (as well as the # 400).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I noticed a discrepancy in the Varney guide, where it's said that the Super 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mikado Locomotive Kit (1948-51, 1953-57), Less Tender (page 53) is Kit # 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
1780K.  I don't know why Dave Spanagel used that number as that's reserved for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
a Mikado Valve Gear Assembly.  Varney's June 1949 catalog has that kit as # 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
1788K, the same number that Spanagel used for the immediately preceding 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Korean War (1951) Super Mikado on the same page.  I guess he's not completely 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
to blame though, when we all proof-read it for errors <g>.  Ray F.W.    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
</HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12825
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II [2 Attachments]
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    My brain is swelling.....my skull can no longer contain my brain......
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
POW!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     > Hi Jim H.,  One slight addition here, and while it's relatively minor it's 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> still an important factor not to be overlooked when comparing the Varney # 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1850D post-War Pacific (SP style) boiler to the similar # 400 Pre-War (SP 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> style) boilers  -- the third and also very similar (SP style) post-War Pacific 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> # 1787-K-6 lead boiler is not to be confused with the first boiler 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> mentioned.  While they may be essentially the same (style), much of the detail is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> cast on to the 1787-K-6 post-War boiler. whereas the modeler needs to add such 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> included (but separate) details such as the power reverse, air tanks and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> piping below the walk-way on the former boiler (as well as the # 400).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I noticed a discrepancy in the Varney guide, where it's said that the Super 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Mikado Locomotive Kit (1948-51, 1953-57), Less Tender (page 53) is Kit # 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1780K.  I don't know why Dave Spanagel used that number as that's reserved for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> a Mikado Valve Gear Assembly.  Varney's June 1949 catalog has that kit as # 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 1788K, the same number that Spanagel used for the immediately preceding 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Korean War (1951) Super Mikado on the same page.  I guess he's not completely 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> to blame though, when we all proof-read it for errors <g>.  Ray F.W.    
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> </HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12826
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Got a new one for ya.....
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Vintage power pack.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
KF Industries CB700
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dual pack.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Philadelphia 33, Penn
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Before ZIP codes, so before 1963 (and fits well within the Vintage H0 of this forum!!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I searched, found one "membership" auction house with a listing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
These things any good?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Lamp-cord 2-wire plug, with the collared hole in the back, looks original.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Fun and games.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I may have a decent pack to use!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
(Unlike the green Fleischmann pack next to it......)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12827
						From: trainsnwrcs
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Surprises...
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Since I am in a fact-finding mood.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
I dug out an old tender I have had for a while.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
No trucks, but plastic shell and cast floor.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Finally found it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Athearn Pacific.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
So, I have parts of my two old Athearn 0-4-2T Vulcans, a complete Athearn 0-6-0, running, and parts of an Athearn Pacific!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Who'd a thunk.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://hoseeker.net/assemblyexplosionAthearn/Assembly%20Explosion%20Athearn%204-6-2%201964.jpg
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12828
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Varney Mikes
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    The Varney "SP" boilered Mikado was an awkward expedient, and was an  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
uncharacteristic attempt by Gordon Varney to bring a heavy freight  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
engine quickly onto the market by marrying two parts that really did  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
not go together , i.e. the new Mikado frame and the existing Pacific  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
boiler.  While the Varney Pacific was intended to be, was in fact, and  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
remains to this day to be a fine representation of an SP Pacific, the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
same boiler pasted on to the Mikado chassis represented no existing   
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
prototype,  nor any locomotive that would have likely to have  been  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
built that way.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
This was the very reason why Varney abandoned the Pacific-boilered  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Mikado at an early date in favor of  later much-improved, even  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
handsome and more appropriate boiler and superstructure.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12829
						From: Denny Anspach
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    The valve gear is Baker Type II, and almost certainly an aftermarket  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
product from  Budd (not Varney), an early brass investment cast  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
pattern and parts maker.  It was most popularly marketed by Budd  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
successor Kemtron, and it is still a current product in Kemtron  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
successor PSC's catalog (#51530).
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
These fine valve gear assemblies were very commonly purchased by those  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
desiring to upgrade their Varney and early brass locomotives, and many  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
a sows ear was made into a fine silk purse with this detailing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
   The Type II gear were designed for freight locomotives, while the  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Type I (a different animal) was for passenger. Budd made both.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Denny
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Denny S.  Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sacramento
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12830
						From: 69_Mustang_Man
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Looking for some info on a strange Copper caboose..
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi all!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I hope everyone has a safe and happy new year
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am looking for some info on a strange Copper caboose..
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    If I can not add pics with this message, I will do it as soon as I can reply to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I would really like so info on its history and or maker.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    The wood base is marked: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    "Exacta" Scale Models Inc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patent Pending
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    4216 No. Vancouver Ave.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Portland 11, Oregon
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Any takers?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks and Happy New Year!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12831
						From: Sean Naylor
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Looking for some info on a strange Copper caboose..
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    See attached photos!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thu, December 31, 2009 7:46:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Looking for some info on a strange Copper caboose..

                                                                                                                                                                                                      

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi all!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I hope everyone has a safe and happy new year
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am looking for some info on a strange Copper caboose..
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    If I can not add pics with this message, I will do it as soon as I can reply to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I would really like so info on its history and or maker.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    The wood base is marked: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    "Exacta" Scale Models Inc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patent Pending
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    4216 No. Vancouver Ave.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Portland 11, Oregon
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Any takers?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks and Happy New Year!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean

                                                                                                                                                                                                    



      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
						
							 
						
						
							
@@attachment@@
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12832
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ray F W, Dave, All,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I hope the English 
language does not fail me now in the following statements. Of all vintage HO 
trains ( steam, diesel and passenger cars )that I deal with (any vintage company 
from 1936 - 1977) I have the hardest time with some descriptions concerning 
Varney. I actually hesitate to try to help anyone asking questions about certain 
items. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Reading books about Varney, 
looking at some catalogs but not having all ,having a lot of paperwork I have on 
the hoseeker site, having many Varney steam engines in my collection and 
having contacts with many in the vintage HO train field ( and not all members in 
Yahoo groups ) it sometimes seems to me there is just to much to keep track of. 
Remember I am only talking Varney steam .Having much personal contact with Dave 
Spanagal concerning Varney over the years, knowing Dr Joe Weber whose collection 
of steam formed the basis of pictures in the Varney guide, finding Varney items 
uncataloged and unclassified, and trying to keep the history of Varney HO exact 
just drives me crazy. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Having met Ray F W on this site 
has been a blessing because he seems to be best able to write Varney narrative, 
from many sources, in a distinct and precise manner. But I think even Ray will 
have to agree, because of many side discussions we have had, there is nobody 
that is a 100 % precise because of all that info. Ray's latest post is an 
example of why did Dave Spanagel do what he did about a minor issue. While it 
deals with a catalog number it means two different items with the same number. 
While very important in the long run concerning Varney history it is still 
extremely hard to completely understand all the nuances involved.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Hey maybe it's just me but I 
sometimes "shy" from Varney answers people ask. Sometimes if you give to much 
info you confuse the issues. Other times you keep it simple and that isn't the 
best.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Total vintage Varney history is 
complex. All sources out there are just that. Sources to try to mesh together to 
get the smallest information just right. I'm sorry if this post might seem like 
rambling but it drives me up a wall at times. After being involved in HO since 
1958 and having almost one of every early Varney steam , diesel and passenger 
car doesn't make me an expert. I have most of the rarest Varney items and even a 
few uncataloged items verified  by people including Dave Spanagel and I am 
still far from even being close to an expert. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        So to all out there saying " 
What did you say"  don't feel bad you are not alone. I too read things and 
it doesn't sink in. Remember even Dave Spanagel didn't know 100% and had to have 
others help him and still things info was missed or got "lost in the shuffle" 
and not intentionally.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 4:56 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Odd valve gear 
  on Varney Super Mike II
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi Jim H., One slight addition here, and while it's relatively 
  minor it's 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    still an important factor not to be overlooked when comparing 
  the Varney # 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    1850D post-War Pacific (SP style) boiler to the similar # 400 
  Pre-War (SP 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    style) boilers -- the third and also very similar (SP style) 
  post-War Pacific 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    # 1787-K-6 lead boiler is not to be confused with the 
  first boiler 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    mentioned. While they may be essentially the same (style), 
  much of the detail is 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    cast on to the 1787-K-6 post-War boiler. whereas the 
  modeler needs to add such 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    included (but separate) details such as the 
  power reverse, air tanks and 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    piping below the walk-way on the former 
  boiler (as well as the # 400).

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I noticed a discrepancy in the Varney 
  guide, where it's said that the Super 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Mikado Locomotive Kit (1948-51, 
  1953-57), Less Tender (page 53) is Kit # 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    1780K. I don't know why Dave 
  Spanagel used that number as that's reserved for 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    a Mikado Valve Gear 
  Assembly. Varney's June 1949 catalog has that kit as # 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    1788K, the same 
  number that Spanagel used for the immediately preceding 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Korean War (1951) 
  Super Mikado on the same page. I guess he's not completely 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    to blame 
  though, when we all proof-read it for errors <g>. Ray F.W. 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    </HTML>
                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12833
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Odd valve gear on Varney Super Mike II
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Denny, Glenn,
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thanks for the ID on 
who made this valve gear. I knew it wasn't Varney. I normally would 
have liked to have the right Varney valve gear ( again personal preference 
)  on the engine from a collection / collector standpoint only 
but it was bought with this valve gear on
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                        However it is a fine piece of 
workmanship and I can see how people wanting to make modifications to 
their engine to look better and more realistic would use it. I'm just 
glad to finally know what it is.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 7:17 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Odd valve gear on 
  Varney Super Mike II
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    The valve gear is Baker Type II, and almost certainly an aftermarket 
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    product from Budd (not Varney), an early brass investment cast 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    pattern 
  and parts maker. It was most popularly marketed by Budd 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    successor Kemtron, 
  and it is still a current product in Kemtron 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    successor PSC's catalog 
  (#51530).

                                                                                                                                                                                                    These fine valve gear assemblies were very commonly purchased 
  by those 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    desiring to upgrade their Varney and early brass locomotives, and 
  many 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    a sows ear was made into a fine silk purse with this 
  detailing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    The Type II gear were designed for freight locomotives, 
  while the 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Type I (a different animal) was for passenger. Budd made 
  both.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Denny

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Denny S. Anspach MD
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sacramento

                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12834
						From: jim heckard
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Looking for some info on a strange Copper caboose..
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean, 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                       I can offer a little info about Exacta 
but not this caboose. Exacta made a lot of passenger cars a number of which I 
have These kits came  in a flat "etched copper " sheet you bent over a wood 
frame and are fairly detailed. The company later became Central Lines. That 
address is Central Lines Manufacturing Company    770 Mission 
Street     San Francisco 3, California.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                       There is some items on HOseeker but 
not sure if this caboose info there. Member Gerold Eckl seems to know a lot 
about the company. Hope this helps somewhat.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Jim H
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 7:46 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Looking for some 
  info on a strange Copper caboose..
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Hi all!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I hope everyone has a safe and happy new year
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I am looking for some info on a strange Copper 
  caboose..
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    If I can not add pics with this message, I will do it as 
  soon as I can reply to it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I would really like so info on its history and or 
  maker.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    The wood base is marked: 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    "Exacta" Scale Models 
  Inc.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Patent Pending
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    4216 No. Vancouver 
  Ave.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Portland 11, Oregon
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Any takers?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks and Happy New Year!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sean
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12835
						From: Don Dellmann
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Got a new one for ya.....
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    Seems to me I had a K&F "Emperor" at one time.  If it's the one I'm thinking 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
of, was a nice unit, even had two meters that I'm still using.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
The other one from out of the past, anybody remember "Scintilla"?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 4:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: [vintageHO] Got a new one for ya.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Vintage power pack.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> KF Industries CB700
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dual pack.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Philadelphia 33, Penn
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Before ZIP codes, so before 1963 (and fits well within the Vintage H0 of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> this forum!!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I searched, found one "membership" auction house with a listing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> These things any good?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Lamp-cord 2-wire plug, with the collared hole in the back, looks original.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Fun and games.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> I may have a decent pack to use!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> (Unlike the green Fleischmann pack next to it......) 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12836
						From: Roger Aultman
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Got a new one for ya.....
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    

 
 
 

                                                                                                                                                                                                    My first powepack was Scintilla Unipack Junior, it worked well 
till the selenium rectifier burned out.  Man did that stink.   
Roger
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
  
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 8:01 
  PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Got a new one 
  for ya.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  

                                                                                                                                                                                                      
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
  
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Seems to me I had a K&F "Emperor" at one time. If it's the one I'm 
  thinking 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    of, was a nice unit, even had two meters that I'm still 
  using.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    The other one from out of the past, anybody remember 
  "Scintilla"?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Don

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

                                                                                                                                                                                                    ----- 
  Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@ mindspring. com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    To: 
  <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sent: 
  Thursday, December 31, 2009 4:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Subject: [vintageHO] Got a new one for 
  ya.....

                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Vintage power pack.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > KF Industries CB700
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > 
  Dual pack.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Philadelphia 33, Penn
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Before ZIP codes, so before 
  1963 (and fits well within the Vintage H0 of 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > this 
  forum!!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I searched, found one "membership" auction house with 
  a listing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > These things any good?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Lamp-cord 
  2-wire plug, with the collared hole in the back, looks 
  original.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Fun and games.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I may have a decent 
  pack to use!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                                                                                                                    > (Unlike the green 
  Fleischmann pack next to it......)

                                                                                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						                                                                                                                                                                                                    		
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Group: vintageHO
						Message: 12837
						From: Glenn476
						Date: 12/31/2009
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						Subject: Re: Got a new one for ya.....
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
				
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
					
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
						
							
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
								
                                                                                                                                                                                                    


                                                                                                                                                                                                    I had a Scintilla power pack back in 1948 or thereabouts.  It had a slot 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
across the front where the speed control slid.  CPSC would probably have it 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
banned from the market nowadays.  When you get down to it, that was a 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
variable transformer--as MR promoted  a few years later.  gj
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 6:01 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Got a new one for ya.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Seems to me I had a K&F "Emperor" at one time.  If it's the one I'm 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> thinking
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> of, was a nice unit, even had two meters that I'm still using.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> The other one from out of the past, anybody remember "Scintilla"?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Don Dellmann
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> don.dellmann@...
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Owner
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ----- Original Message ----- 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 4:15 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Subject: [vintageHO] Got a new one for ya.....
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Vintage power pack.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> KF Industries CB700
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Dual pack.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Philadelphia 33, Penn
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Before ZIP codes, so before 1963 (and fits well within the Vintage H0 of
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> this forum!!)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I searched, found one "membership" auction house with a listing.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> These things any good?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Lamp-cord 2-wire plug, with the collared hole in the back, looks 
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> original.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Fun and games.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> I may have a decent pack to use!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> Dave
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>> (Unlike the green Fleischmann pack next to it......)
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> ------------------------------------
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    
>
                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                                                                                    
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